Cºat ºce A- TD 2.57 A3 /3% (e T H I R D R. E. P. O. R. T OF Aſ ſº. THE COMMISSIONERS APPOINTED TO INQUIRE INTO THE BEST MEANS OF PREVENTING THE POLLUTION OF RIVERS. (RIVERS AIRE AND CALDER, &c.) VOL. II. - MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND INDEX. #31 egritted to ſhotſ, 39 ouge6 of jarliament tºp Command of 39er ſºlajeºtp, LONDON : PRINTED BY GEORGE EDWARD EYRE AND WILLIAM SPOTTISWOODE, PRINTERS TO THE QUEEN'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY. FOR HER MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE, - Tiso. 2. 1867. LIST OF WITNESSES MINUTES OF EVIDENCE INDEX – - - TD a 57 . A 3 | 3 & 2 CONTENTS. - - - - - - - 1 Yºk , trº--- tº- *~x. - º *-* -ºn Sººn-hº. LIST OF WITNESSES. No. Name of Witness. Residence. Page. A. 1 Abbey, Mr. John H., C.E. - - - Huddersfield - - 100 2 Akroyd, Colonel Edward, M.P. - - - Halifax - - - 346 3 Alexander William, Esq., M.D., M.R.C.P. - Halifax - - - 381 4 Anderton, Mr. Frederick William - - Bradford - - - 315 5 Armitage, Mr. Samuel - - - - Huddersfield - - 122 6 Arnott, Mr. John - - - - Leeds - - - 26I 7 Atkinson, George Paul, Esq., M.R.C.S. - - Pontefract - - 481 8 Auty, Mr. Edwin (Messrs. J. Howgate & Sons) - || Mirfield - - - 74 B. - 9 | Bailey, Mr. Benson - - - - Skipton - - - 447 1() Bamford, Mr. James Byrom - - - Todmorden - - 398 11 Barker, Mr. Joseph - - - - Wakefield - - 38 12 Bartholomew, Mr. William Hammond - - Leeds - - - 227 13 Bates, Mr. John - - - - Dewsbury - - 80 14 Beaumont, Mr. Joseph - - - - Elland - - - 387 15 Behrens, Mr. Jacob - - - - || Bradford - - - 333 Nº.16 Blackburn, Mr. Thomas - - - - Brighouse - - 399 17 Blamires, Mr. Samuel - - - - Bradford - - - 314 * 18 Booth, Mr. Isaac, C.E. - - - - Halifax - - - 401 - 19 Bowditch, Rev. William Renwick - - Wakefield 66 ºn 20 Bracken, Mr. Richard - - - - Luddenden - 377 cº Bradley, Mr. William - - - - Skipton - 443 22 Bradley, Mr. Benjamin Hutton - - - Skipton - 448 myº Brayshaw, William, Esq., Mayor - - || Bradford - 263 24 Brigg, John, Esq., J.P. - - - - Keighley 422 sº 25 Brook, Mr. John - - - - Huddersfield - - 97 26 Brooke, Mr. Edward, jumr. - - - 22 - - 128 and 145 27 Brooke, Mr. Henry - - - - ** - - 118 28 Brooke, Mr. Thomas - - - - 22 - - 147 and 158 29 Brooke, Mr. William - - - - Water Fryston - - 483 30 Buckley, Mr. John - - - - || Todmorden - - 388 3 Burgess, Mr. John - - - - || Huddersfield - - 151 32 Burr, Mr. William - - - - Keighley - - 409 and 422 C. 33 Calvert, Mr. John - - - - Skipton - - - || 444 and 453 34 Carter, Mr. John - - - - Knottingley - - 479 35 Carter, Mr. Alderman Robert Meek - - Leeds - - - 219 36 Chadwick, Charles, Esq., M.D., J.P. - - ** - - - 211 37 Chambers, Mr. Charles - - - - Todmorden - - 39() 3 Charlesworth, Mr. John - - - - || Thornhill - - 86 39 Child, Mr. John Wright - - - - Halifax - - - 366 4() Childe, Mr. Rowland - - - - Wakefield - - 47 41 Clarke, Mr. Thomas - - - - Skipton - - - 453 42 Clay, Mr. Daniel- - - - - Sowerby Bridge - - 376 43 Clay, Mr. Joseph Travis - - - Rastrick - - 363 44 Clough, Mr. Thomas William - - – Huddersfield - - 160 and 162 45 Clough, Mr. John - - - - Keighley - - 431 46 Cockshott, Mr. William - - - - || Keighley- - - 415 47 Coleman, Mr. Henry John - - - Pontefract - - 457 48 Constable, Mr Thomas - - - - Otley - - - 292 49 Cooper, Mr. John - - - - Fartown - - - 145 50 Craven, Mr. Charles Alfred - - - Keighley- - - 418 51 Craven, Joseph Esq. - - - - Keighley- - - 400 52 Cronhelm, Mr. Frederick William - - Halifax - - - 367 53 Crosland, Mr. Joseph - - - - Lockwood - - 14() 54 Crossley, John, Esq., J.P. - - - Halifax - - - 341 55 Crossley, Mr. John - - - - Halifax - - - 373 56 Crowther, Mr. A. - - - - Lockwood - - 141 57 Crowther, Mr. Jeremiah - - - - Bradford - - - 328 58 Crutchley, Mr. William - - - - Wakefield - - 82...) * a 2 IV No. Name of Witness. Residence. Page. D. 59 Darwin, Francis Esq., J.P. - - Creskeld near Otley - 170 60 Dent, Mr. Robert - - - Wakefield - - 53 61 Dewhurst, Mr. John B. - - Skipton - - - 441 62 Dibb, Mr. John Edward - - Wakefield - - 7 63 Dixon, Mr. John - - - Keighley - - - 435 64 Dresser, Mr. Christopher Leefe, C.E. - Headingley, Leeds - 248 65 Dryden, Mr. George - - - Bingley - - - 412 E. 66 Eastwood, Mr. E. - - -- Huddersfield - - 114 67 Ellis, Robert H., Esq., Mayor - - Dewsbury - - 76 68 Ellison, Mr. Lambert - - - Knaresborough - - 180 69 Emmott, Mr. Holmes - - - Keighley - - 420 F. 70 Farrar, Mr. George William - - Honley - - - 135 71 Fawcett, John, Esq. - - - Huddersfield - - 97 72 Fenwick, Mr. Thomas, C.E. - - Leeds - - - 175 73 Fernside, Mr. Edwin - - - Pontefract - - 454 74 Ferrand, William, Esq., J.P. - - St. Ives, Bingley - 166 and 405 75 Fielden, John, Esq. - - - Todmorden - - 393 76 Fielden, Mr. Joshua - - - Todmorden - - 392 77 Fielding, Mr. James - - - Sowerby Bridge - - 370 78 Fielding, Mr. Robert - - - Todmorden - - 388 79 Filliter, Mr. Edward, C.E. - - Leeds - - - 180 and 185 80 Fowler, Mr. Alfred Mountain, C.E. - Leeds - - - 191 81 Fowler, James, Esq. - - - Wakefield - - 15 82 France, Mr. John M. - - - Bradford - - 332 G. 83 Garside, Mr. Alderman Robert - - Leeds - - - 255 84 George, Mr. Alderman Thomas W. - Leeds - - - 214 85 Godwin, John Venimore, Esq., J.P. - Bradford - - - 264 86 Goldthorpe, Mr. John D. - -- Wakefield - - 40 87 Goodall, Mr. Timothy - - - Dewsbury - - 68 88 Gott, Mr. Charles, C.E. - - - Bradford - - 271 and 300 89 Graham, Captain - - - Huddersfield - - 130 90 Graham, Mr. William - - - Keighley - - 440 91 Greenwood, Mr. Edward - Huddersfield - - 112 92 Gundill, Mr. William - - - Pontefract - - 463 H. 93 Haigh, Mr. John - - - Honley - - - 139 94 Hamerton, Mr. Thomas Edward - Todmorden - - 39] 95 Hamilton, Mr. William B. - - Bradford - - 316 96 Hare, Mr. Charles Kershaw - - Huddersfield - - 155 97 | Hartley, Mr. Bernard, C.E. - - Pontefract - - 464 98 Hattersley, Mr. Richard L. - - - Keighley - - 426 99 | Hastings, Mr. Thomas - - - Stainland - - 372 100 Heelis, Mr. John - - - Skipton - - - 439 101 Heptinstall, Mr. Richard - - Castleford - - 466 and 472 102 Hick, Mr. Matthew B. - - - Wakefield - - 55 103 Higgins, Mr. James - - - Leeds - - - 253 104 Hirst, Mr. William - - - Leeds - - - 243 105 | Hobson, Mr. Joshua - - - Huddersfield - . 163 106 Holdsworth, Mr. Alderman Samuel, M.D. Wakefield - - 19 107 Holdsworth, Mr. William Irving - Halifax - - 355 408 Holliday, Mr. Read - - - Huddersfield - - 126 109 Holmes, Mr. William - - - Wakefield - - 23 410 Holmes, Mr. John - - - Bradford - - 289 111 Holroyd, Mr. Stephen Todd - - Leeds - - - 245 112 Hopkinson, Mr. Joseph - - - Huddersfield - - 144 113 Horn, Mr. Joseph - - - Castleford - - 455 114 Horner, Mr. Leonard - - - Skipton - - - 447 115 Hunt, Mr. William - - - Castleford - - 477 I. 116 Illingworth, Mr. Alfred - - - Bradford - - - 317 117 Ingham, Mr. Edward - - - Halifax - - - 360 118 Ingham, Mr. John - - -- Bradford - - - 280 119 120 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 I29 130 131 132 133 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 164 165 166 167 168 169 -170 171 Name of Witness. Jeffery, Mr. John Rust - - Jessop, Mr. Adam - - Johnson, Mr. Joseph - - Jones, Mr. F. R. - - Jubb, John, Esq. - - K. Kenyon, Mr. Walter - - L. Laycock, Mr. Thomas Brigg - Landon, Revd. James J. B. - Leather, Mr. George Henry - Leather, Mr. John Wignall, C.E. Lord, Mr. Edward - - Lord, Mr. Josiah - - Lumb, Mr. Frederick - - Lynam, Mr. Edmund, C.E. - M. Maddison, Mr. William Porter - Magson, Mr. Samuel Malam, Mr. George Dunbar - Marriner, Mr. Edward - - Marriott, Mr. John Thomas - Marsden, Mr. William - - McGowen, William Thomas, Esq. Mellor, Mr. Wright - - Milligan, Mr. John - - Milner, Mr. William Ralph - Mills, Mr. Charles - - Mitchell, Mr. Henry - - Mitchell, Mr. John Morgan, Mr. Henry Morris, Mr. William - - Moxon, Richard, Esq., J.P. - Mumford, Mr. George Edward N. Nickols, Mr. Richard - - Nicolson, Mr. Angus, C.E. - Norris, James Edward, Esq. - O. Oates, Mr. William - - Oakes, Mr. James - - Oldroyd, Mr. Charles - - Ormerod, Mr. Peter - - Oxley, Henry, Esq., Mayor - P. Perkin, Mr. George - - Pollard, Mr. William - - Priestley, Mr. Thomas - - R. Rawson, William Henry, Esq., J.P. Rayner, Mr. Robert Lee - - Rhodes, Joseph, Esq., Mayor - Richardson, Mr. John, C.E. - Ridgway, Mr. Matthew - - Reffitt, Mr. James - - Riley, Mr. John - - - Ripley, Henry William, Esq., J.P. Robinson, Mr. James - - Robinson, Kirkby, Esq., M.D. - Muscroft, Henry, Esq., L.R.C.P., L. Residence. Page. - Bradford - - - 295 - - || Castleford - - 471 - - Wakefield - - 7 - - || Huddersfield - - 114 - - || Batley - - - 69 - - || Huddersfield - - 125 - || Keighley- - - 430 - - Ledsham Vicarage, South 485 Milford. - - || Bradford - - - 299 - - | Leeds - - - 302 - - || Todmorden - - 396 - - || Todmorden - - 395 - - || Wakefield - 30 - - Wakefield - - 21 - - || Thornhill - - 82 - - || Halifax - - - 383 - - || Halifax - - - 386 - - || Keighley- - - 433 - - || Batley - - - 72 - - Skipton - - - 446 - - || Bradford - - - 266 - - Huddersfield - - 131 and 162 - - Keighley- - - 416 - Wakefield - - 63 - - Mold Green - - 159 - - || Bradford - - - 289 - - Leeds - - - 239 - - Wakefield - - 5 - - Sowerby Bridge - - 378 - - || Pontefract - - 480 - - Bradford - - 327 - - Pontefract - - 482 - - | Leeds - - - 202 - - Skipton - - - 450 - - || Halifax - - - 335 - - Dewsbury - - 92 - - Wakefield - - 6 - - || Thornhill - - 82 - - Todmorden - - 394 - - | Leeds - - - 164 - - || Wakefield - - 42 - - Grange, near Leeds - 206 - - Todmorden - - 396 - - || Halifax - - - 374 - - || Mirfield - - - 87 - - Wakefield - - 1 and 62 - - || Halifax - - - || 352 and 358 - - || Dewsbury - - 74 - - Leeds - - - 258 - - || Bradford- - - 290 - - || Bradford - - - 318 - - || Honley - - - 137 - - | Leeds - - - 189 a 3 vi No. " Name of Witness. Residence. Page. 172 Robson, Mr. Isaac - - - Mold Green - - 158 173 Rodley, Mr. Frederick - - Todmorden - - 397 174 Roodhouse, Mr. Stephen - - Wakefield - - 31 175 Routledge, John, Esq., Mayor - - Pontefract - - 453 S. 176 Salmond, Mr. David - - - Bradford - - - 331 177 Scott, Mr. John - - - Skipton - - 439 178 Seed Mr. Benjamin - - - Slaithwaite - - 155 179 Sharp, Mr. John - - - Keighley - - 419 180 Shaw, Thomas, Esq., Mayor - - Halifax - - - 380 181 Sidgwick, Christopher, Esq. - - Skipton - - - 436 182 Sidgwick, Mr. Robert Hodgson - - Skipton - - - 438 183 Simpson, James Horatio, Esq., M.D. - Pontrefact - - || 473 and 481 184 Simpson, Mr. Thomas - - - Castleford - - 476 185 Slee, Mr. Henry - - - Bradford - - 296 186 Smith, Mr. Charles - - - Leeds - - - 241 187 Smith, Mr. Frederick - - - Halifax - - - 353 188 Smith, Mr. George - - - Wakefield - - 35 189 Smith, Mr. John Edward - - Leeds - - - 173 190 Smith, Samuel, Esq., F.R.C.S. - - Leeds - - - 240 191 Smith, Samuel, Esq., J.P. - - Bradford - - 284 and 329 192 Smith, Mr. William - - - Keighley - - 413 193 Smyth, Colonel John George - - Wakefield - - 60 and 63 194 Spencer, Mr. Thomas, F.C.S. - - London - - - || 48 and 56 195 Stansfield, Mr. Abraham - - - Todmorden - - 389 196 Statter, William, Esq., F.R.C.S.- - Wakefield - - 33 197 Stewart, Mr. William - - - Wakefield - - 44 198 Sugden, Mr. Robert Newsholme - Bingley - - - 434 199 Sutcliffe, Mr. Robert - - - Idle, near Bradford 300 200 Sutcliffe, Mr. William - - - Todmorden - - 387 201 Swale, Mr. William - - - Leeds - - - 207 202 Swallow, Mr. David - - - Bradford - - 286 203 Sykes, Mr. Joseph - - - Wakefield - - || 26 and 46 T. 204 Tatham, Mr. Alderman George - - Buslingthorpe, Leeds - 235 205 Tattersfield, Mr. Joseph - - - Ravensthorpe - - 90 206 Teall, Mr. William - - - Wakefield - - 11 2O7 Tennant, Mr. Robert - - - Leeds - - - 216 208 Thompson, Mr. William Gordon - Bradford - - 297 209 Thornton, Mr. Joseph - - - Huddersfield - - 110 210 Tinker, Mr. Uriah - - - Holmfirth - - 157 211 Townend, Mr. Edward - - - Cullingworth - - 427 212 Turner, Joseph, Esq. - - - Huddersfield - - 96 213 Turpin, Mr. James - - - Pontefract - - 462 214 Tweedale, Mr. Alderman - - Dewsbury - - 82 W. 215 Wade, William Swift Esq., L.R.C.P., E. - Wakefield - - 10 216 Walker, Mr. William - - - Bradford - - 333 217 Weatherhill, Mr. James - - - Batley - - - 69 218 | Whitham, Mr. James - - - Wakefield - - 4 219 Wightman, Mr. Alderman William, M.D. Halifax - - - 334 220 Wilkinson, Mr. William Newton - - Castleford - - 469 221 Wilson, Mr. Thomas - - - Leeds - - - 234 222 Wilson, Mr. Daniel - - - Wakefield - - 43 223 Wilson, Mr. William - - - Castleford - - 478 224 Wood, Mr. William - - - Dewsbury - - 7 225 Wood, William, Esq., J.P. - - Pontefract - - 460 226 Woollas, Mr. William - - - Stanley Ferry (near Wake- 22 field). 227 Wordsworth, Mr. Thomas - -- Pontefract - - 459 228 Worfolk, Mr. William - - - Knottingley - - 484 229 Wormald, Mr. John - - - Dewsbury - - 87 230 Wright, Thomas G., Esq., M.D. - - Wakefield - - 65 231. Wrigley, Mr. Joseph - - - Huddersfield - - 152 Y. 232 Yewdall, Mr. Alderman David - - Calverley, Leeds - - 224 -- M IN UTES O F E VI DE N C F. TAKEN BEFORE T H E C O M M I S S I O N E R S APPOINTED TO INQUIRE INTO THE BEST MEANS OF REMEDYING POLLUTION THE OF RIVERS. INQUIRY INTO THE STATE OF THE RIVERS AIRE AND CALDER, AND THEIR TRIBUTARIES. Wakefield, Tuesday, 16th October 1866. C 2.58 & 3 (c. C. PRESENT: ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THORNHILL HARRISON, Esq. | (Chairman.) Gentlemen, the Commissioners ap- pointed to inquire into the pollution of rivers appear here to receive evidence relative to the state of the rivers Aire and Calder and their tributaries, under the several heads set forth in the notice which has been duly advertised and circulated. I will first draw your attention to the terms of the Commission, viz.: “Whereas we have deemed it “expedient for divers good causes and considerations “ that a Commission should forthwith issue for the “ purpose of inquiring how far the present use of rivers or running waters in England for the purpose “ of carrying off the sewage of towns and populous “ places, and the refuse arising from industrial pro- cesses and manufactures, can be prevented without risk to the public health or serious injury to such processes and manufactures, and how far such sewage and refuse can be utilizei or got rid of otherwise than by discharge into rivers or running waters, or rendered harmless before reaching them; and also for the purpose of inquiring into the effect on the drainage of lands and inhabited places, of « « 4. . & « « º « 4. º 4. & & & & Professor John THOMAS WAY. “ obstructions to the natural flow of rivers or streams “caused by mills, weirs, locks, and other navigation “ works, and into the best means of remedying any “evils thence arising.” This wording of the Com- mission is especially guarded, as it is not contemplated that the trade and manufactures of the country are to be injuriously interfered with, but that the inquiries shall be so conducted as to elicit the truth on both sides of the question. I mention this particularly, because some persons appear to be apprehensive that there may be such interference as to injure trade and manufactures. I think, however, upon calm considera- tion, you will see that the interests of the manufac- turers of this county are of such vital importance, and so essential to the well-being of the whole community, that the Legislature will be very cautious how it does anything that shall be prejudicial to trade. If it is possible to diminish the pollution of streams, without serious injury to trade and manufactures, it will no doubt be the duty of Parliament to enact such laws and to enforce such regulations as shall be for the benefit of the whole district. Mr. Joseph RHODES examined. 1. (Chairman.) Are you mayor of Wakefield – Yes. 2. How long have you been resident in this dis- trict —60 years. 3. Have you paid attention to the condition of the streams in this district, so as to be able to speak to their present and their former condition ?–Yes. 4. Will you state what was their former condition ? —In my early days the river here was pure or nearly so. I am speaking of the river Calder. The water was then sweet and clean, and it was full of fish. 5. What kind of fish 2–Roach and perch. 6. What is the general character of the manufac- tures carried on in this immediate neighbourhood — Worsted spinning for knitting worsted ; that is the main manufacture. That was originally started here. I think this is almost the only district, except 17 1 59.-2, Leicester and Aberdeen, where that kind of worsted is manufactured—knitting worsted and stocking worsted. A part is made in Manchester and a little in Glasgow. There is one firm at Manchester, and there used to be one very extensive one at Aberdeen, which perhaps * as much as the people in Wakefield ICl. 7. What works on the banks of the river a little above Wakefield pollute the water —There are some, particularly, about Battley—Carr, and Dewsbury. They are all cloth manufactories in that district, and that sort of cloth is manufactured which is made almost without wool. They use rags, shoddy, &c., that makes the water worse still. 8. Old rags are worked up again –Yes. Of course they use a portion of fresh wool, but the stream that comes down there is awful. It is quite sufficient to A WAKE- FIELD. 16 Oct. 1866. Mr. J. Rhodes 2 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. contaminate a river; but in all the valley up the river to Todmorden there are manufactories of various sorts of woollen and cotton. There are large works at Sowerby Bridge and Luddenden Foot. At Dewsbury ind Ossett there are large woollen and worsted manu- actories on the bank of the river. 9. Do all those works use water for cleansing and manufacturing purposes, and return the refuse back gain into the stream --Most of them ; but the evil mas been mitigated of late years by the owners of the mills saving their suds and utilizing them, making soap and oil from them again, but there is still a vast quantity of refuse coming into the river. 10. Are there any dyeworks –Yes. Large works were in existence as far back as I can recollect. The Messrs. Holdsworths used to dye large quantities of woollen and stuff goods for the Bradford and Leeds people, and the chief recommendation was that we had such pure water here. I am afraid the superiority has now vanished, owing to the filthy state of the river. 11. Do you think that has led to the removal of the dye works, or diminished the trade in this district – I believe that the dye works have not nearly so much business as they had ; but I cannot speak particularly to that point. 12. Is the river liable to flood the land injuriously for any distance above or below Wakefield during heavy rains —Very little. I think there are very few rivers that go down an open valley which cause less flooding. I think that the floods are fewer and to a much smaller extent than they were when I was a boy. †. Do the towns and villages situated upon the river pass their sewage into the river ?—I think every atom of it goes in, except what they save in the privies, and perhaps distribute on the land. 14. Where there are sewers on the margin of the river, the contents of those sewers are passed into the river ?–Yes, they can go nowhere else, I believe. The river winds amongst hills. I do not see that the people could turn their sewage anywhere else. I have not heard of a single case where they save the sewage and utilize it. 15. Is it within your knowledge that persons owning sites on the banks of the river throw their ashes in, or refuse of any kind –I do not know. I think they do much as they like ; every one on the side of the T1Wer. 16. You think each owner on the banks does just as he likes 2–I have not heard of any objection being made. I do not recollect any lawsuits. I have under- stood that the Messrs. Holdsworth some years ago did throw their ashes from their dyeworks into the river. 17. Have any complaints been brought before you as to the foul condition of the river since you have been mayor —No public complaints, I believe, but complaints are universal throughout the town of the filthy state of the river. Only a few years ago boating was very pleasant on it. Now I should not like to go on account of the effluvia. It would do more harm than good. 18. What is the population of Wakefield –At the last census it was 23,350. 19. What is its rateable value *-It was about 72,000l. last year. 20. Is the town of Wakefield sewered 2–Half sewered. We are going to complete the sewerage In OW. 21. What becomes of the sewage 2–It all goes into the river I am sorry to say. 22. Have you a local water supply 2–Yes. 23. Is it supplied by a private company or by the corporation ?—By a private company. 24. Where do they obtain the water –From this river the bulk of it. 25. Is the water obtained by pumping from a point a little below the town 2–Yes." 26. After the sewage of the town has been passed into the river ?—Yes...º. - - 27. Is that water filtered ºr not 2–It is filtered by A. Mr. Spencer's system, which I daresay is the best. It is of a little value to make the water drinkable. 28. In completing your system of sewerage have you borne in mind that you may be required to utilize the sewage and keep it out of the river ?—I have mentioned that many times, particularly when we had a resolution as to the outlet sewers carried through the council. I mentioned that it would be much better to construct works to utilize the sewage as it came from the sewers. I have also opposed any alteration of the outlet, thinking it would be useless in a short time. 29. The question has been discussed or spoken of in the council —I think there was no one but myself and Dr. Holdsworth who urged it on the council. I am rather diffident about it. I have not yet seen any good works, so as to be able to tell whether it would answer or not. 30, Has there been any discussion in the town council or in the town as to whether the water was of a desirable quality ?—I am afraid that we are hardly awake to this question yet. Most people are not aware of the mischievous effects of such water as we are now drinking. 31. Have there been in the past summer any cases of cholera in Wakefield within your knowledge?— Only two or three cases a few days ago. 32. Are there any tanworks in the town or near it 2 —Not nearer than three or four miles off the stream. I believe that any refuse from those will ultimately come into this river. 33. Are there any public slaughter-houses in Wake- field 2–Yes, one. 34. Are there any private slaughter-houses 2–Yes, there are, which we have been obliged to tolerate. 35. Do you know whether the refuse from those slaughter-houses passes into drains and into the river ? —I believe that most of it does. 36. And have you no check upon this?—I cannot be aware of all that is being done in the slaughter- houses, but I do know that some of the refuse goes into the sewer, and finds its way into the river. 37. Have you not considered the question of having general slaughter-houses for the borough 2–No.; and there is another thing. During the cattle plague we were compelled to kill all the cattle that came to the weekly fair in this town, which supplies meat for hun- dreds and thousands all round. We could not slaughter all in the borough slaughter-house. During the natural state of the markets the persons came and bought the cattle, and took them to their destination, and slaughtered them in those towns and villages where they were wanted. 38. Are there any gas works here 2–Yes. 39. Do they belong to the corporation or to a com- pany –A private company. 40. Are they situated near the river ?—No ; they are about a mile away. - 41. Have you reason to think that they tend to contaminate the river or not *—I cannot speak to that. - 42. If there is any pollution, it is not a notorious pollution ?—I think not. I suppose the tar and am- moniacal liquor and other products are taken away now, being saleable. 43. Is the scavenging done by contract, or are the cesspits of the cottages left to be emptied by the owners, or do you undertake the scavenging –Some- thing between the two. We are not bound to take away night-soil, or to remove nuisances. Our duty is to compel people to remove their own ; but we found that so impracticable, and we were so alarmed about the cholera this summer, that we set our own men to empty all the privies and remove all the nuisances that we could. 44. The fear of cholera passing away, will you relapse into your old state of neglect 2–I hope not. My period of office is nearly expired, but I have no doubt that my successor will endeavour to carry out improvements in the town. |-- 45. Have you paid attention to the state of the RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 3 cesspits when they are being emptied ?–Not at that time, because it is generally done in the night-time. 46. Did you ever happen to perceive a smell in the streets when the nightmen were working P-I have seen carts in the morning, and I have seen middens being emptied on the road, and they are very foul. I always keep away from them. Our inspector has particular orders from the council to get them all emptied, and to deodorize them with Dr. Bishop's powder while they are being emptied, and after they are finished. The powder is spread all over the place. 47. Did that rule apply before the cholera was apprehended, or was it merely a temporary effort – We have been alive to that point for several years past. I think two or three years ago a deputation went to Leeds to inquire into the best means of getting rid of night-soil and deodorizing it. We got the powder then, and have used it regularly ever since. 48. Have you paid attention to the question of river purification, and formed any opinion as to whether any practical means may be found for mitigating the evil of river pollution ?—I have entertained it very seriously many times, and I cannot see how to get out of it without an immense expenditure. If we had intercepting sewers from Todmorden (for that is the place where the pollution begins) it would be a most expensive piece of work. I think the best way to mitigate the evil is to get an ample supply of pure water from some distant grounds. 49. Do you think the getting an ample supply of pure water would avail if you turned it into polluted water 2–It would not make the river fit to boat upon, but we should be able to have plenty of water for all manufacturing and culinary purposes. It would improve the current of the river, and mitigate the evil to a small extent. 50. Has your inspector of nuisances or scavenger authority from you to scavenge or cleanse the river. Suppose, for example, that carcases of dead animals are floating in it, is any person instructed to bury them 2– No, they have no special instructions. I think the matter would come under the general instructions if there was a nuisance. 51. Has there ever been a scheme proposed to the town council for intercepting sewers to remove the sewage of Wakefield from the town and from the river ?–Only a very imperfect one, to carry the outlet a little further beyond the railway bridge, which I thought would increase the evil. When we do carry our outlet further, I hope arrangements will be made to turn all the sewage on to the land. There is a situation very favourable for such a system ; there are high hills with the ground sloping down for some distance all round about. 52. Is coal obtained near Wakefield?–Yes, under Wakefield we have all the beds, except one or two. 53. What is the commercial value of coal in the town of Wakefield 2–Almost all the engines use smudge and small coals and dust. 54. What is the price per ton —About from 2s. to 2s. 4d. at the pit, and it costs on an average 1s, a ton leading. 55. About 3s. 6d. at the outside 2–Yes. 56. Has there ever been any proposition in the town council to purchase the existing water supply with a view to improving it?—Yes, we nearly made a bargain for it three or four years ago. We then called a public meeting, and the people there who knew more how to talk than to work upset our bargain. 57. If you had purchased those works, would it have involved an extension of them, or should you have abandoned the idea of bringing in water from any purer source?—We should have abandoned the river as a source of supply. 58. You would have procured water from a purer source?—We have not found one as yet, but we thought we might. We are at a distance from a purer supply, and to connect this town with any such supply would involve an immense outlay, perhaps more than the people of the present day would sanction. 59. Have you any written or printed report on the subject?—No ; but there would be the minutes of our proceedings. I know that we spent a vast deal of time in looking at the sources round about. We con- sidered the supplies the present water company pro- posed were not worth entertaining. 60. (Mr. Harrison.) Under whose management is the river?—I think we have nothing to do with the river ; it is like private property. 61. Whose property is it?—The Aire and Calder Navigation Company's. 62. All of it?—Yes, and the Calder and Hebble. I think they are amalgamated now; a lease exists. 63. Are there commissioners whose duty it is to see that the Aire and Calder Navigation Company do their duty 2–I am not aware. 64. When you looked into the question of applying the sewage to the land, did you find that there was any difficulty in obtaining land for its application ?— I believe not. 65. Should you have to pump the sewage or apply it by gravitation?—We must pump it. 66. Has any report been drawn up upon the subject by the surveyor or others as to the application of sewage to land?—I think not. Onr late surveyor went with me to look over the land twice, and we suggested a system that might be carried out very well, so as to rid us of all our sewage. We should have required a pumping engine, and a reservoir on the top of a hill, and pipes from that. 67. (Chairman.) Supposing the legislature passed an Act making it imperative that the pollution should cease as far as practicable, and that there should be a local conservancy board with ample powers, has it oc- curred to you what form that board should take?—I have never thought of having any separate body for managing that matter. I have thought a committee of the local board could manage it quite well with the assistance of an engineer. 68. Do you think that a committee of the local board could be entrusted to interfere with those matters, with dyers, and other persons beyond your borough, because the pollution does not only consist of that which takes place within the borough, the river is pol- luted up and down ; in fact from its source to its estuary 3–I have not given that any thought; there are some trades that require so much water that they could not dispose of the refuse in any other way, unless by having intercepting sewers. 69. You see a difficulty in the way?–Yes. 70. I suppose that the success of many of these manufacturing operations, especially in the case of dyers, in some degree depends upon the volume, and perhaps more upon the purity of the water they have to use?—Yes. 71. If any practicable means could be found by which that water should be returned to the river in a much less polluted condition, it would be for the advan- tage of the persons using that water below?—Certainly. 72. It might not be to the advantage of the persons who polluted it above if they had to incur expense in making it comparatively pure ?—They might be com- pelled to form reservoirs, and perhaps filters, between the reservoirs and the river. 73. Seeing the condition of the river, would it be an intolerable hardship if the abusers of the water who make a profit by abusing it were compelled to appor- tion some of that profit to restoring the water again to a comparative state of purity ?—I think, if it was a hardship, they ought to be compelled to adopt any system that would improve the water. 74. Any system that would not be absolute ruin to the trade –Yes. I am afraid the pernicious salts could hardly be got rid of They could not be filtered out. The best system for making the water as good as we could would be to have subsiding reservoirs, and a filter besides, through which the water should be passed before being turned into the river again. 75. (Mr. Harrison.) When were the waterworks established at Wakefield 2–In 1837. 76. When did you carry out the partial sewerage of WAKE- FIELD. Mr. J. Rhodes. - 16 Oct. 1866. A 2 4 RIVERS COMMISSION :--MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WAKE- FIELD. Mr. J. IRhodes, 16 Oct. 1866. the town 2–I do not know ; it may have been one hundred years ago for what I know. 77. Was the outlet you speak of, which is above the point from whence the water is drawn, in existence when the waterworks were established —Yes, I re- member it when I was quite a child; how long it was made before then I do not know. 78. Have you extended the sewers in the town since the waterworks were established so as to bring down more sewage to that point?—Yes; but we have not had any extensive increase of sewage, I think, till last year and this ; we are now trying to carry out the whole system. 79. Is the population of Wakefield increasing — Yes, it has increased more in these last two or three years than perhaps in 10 or 20 years before. 80. You object to the water of the Calder as a source of supply to the town, in consequence of the pollution by the towns above as well as of the pollution that is caused in Wakefield?—Yes. I do not think any chemist could make that water fit to drink. 81. (Professor Way.) Do you think that the refuse of manufactories or the sewage of towns causes the greatest evil in the river Calder P-I can hardly answer that question. 82. I think you said you were an advocate for the application of sewage to land?—Yes, if I thought it could be made to pay, or that it could be done at an expense of 500ſ, or 1,000l. a year to the town, Ishould advocate it. 83. (Chairman.) If it is practicable to do it at a moderate cost, you would say that the town ought to be made to do it —Certainly. 84. You mention that Dr. Bishop's powder had been used for sanitary purposes; do you know what that is ?—I fancy it is charcoal and perhaps sulphuric acid. - 85. Is Dr. Bishop a local person —He is a Leeds gentleman. I think there is a company for manufac- turing the powder. The witness withdrew. Mr. HENRY MORGAN, Deputy Town Clerk, read a report which had been drawn up by the Town Clerk, Mr. James Whitham, and handed in the same, as follows: In 1771 (11 Geo. III.) an Act of Parliament was passed for the better paving, repairing, and cleansing the streets, lanes, alleys, and other public passages within a certain portion of the town of Wakefield, and which at that time comprehended very nearly the whole of the town. By this Act certain commissioners were appointed to carry out the sewering, paving, and cleansing of the town. Previous to the passing of this Act, the sewage of the town used to find its way into the river Calder by two channels. One channel was a beck or stream, called the Skitterick, which rose at East moor (on the east side of the town) flowed through the town across the street of Wrengate and along the back of the street called Kirkgate for about half way down the street, when it diverted into the middle of the street until it emptied itself into the river near the ancient Soke Mill and near to the spot where the present outfall is. The other channel was an open ditch which used to flow down the street of Westgate, in a westerly direction to Westgate, otherwise Ings beck, and which beck emptied itself into the river a little above the Soke Mill Dam. The Commissioners under the above Act continued in existence till May 9 1853, when Stat. 16 Vict. cap. 24 was passed, and which repealed the Commissioners Act, and directed that all their powers should cease, and that the Corporation of Wakefield should be the Local Board of Health for the whole of the borough of Wakefield and carry out therein the provisions of the Public Health Act. Soon after the passing of the Act of 1771, the Com- missioners made sewers in Kirkgate and Westgate, and covered over the open becks or ditches, and diverted them into the sewers, and instead of the sewage flowing into the Soke Mill Race, the Commissioners made a syphon sewer under the mill race and emptied it into the river. This outfall remains in the same place to this day (except that the Local Board enlarged it), and ever since 1771 to the present time this outfall has formed the main outlet for the sewage of Wakefield. Shortly after the application of the Public Health Act to Wakefield, the Local Board turned their attention to the sewage question, and made several attempts to provide a better outfall, and if possible to free the sewage water from the sewage before the water reached the river, but their attempts have hithetro been unsuccessful. On reference to the corporation minutes, it appears that on July 13, 1853, the Local Board directed their then Surveyor to suggest an improved outlet, having regard to a general system of sewerage for the Borough, but he was incompetent to the task, and nothing was done. - On February 6, 1856, the then Borough Surveyor reported in favour of a new outfall being made nearly a mile lower down the river than the present one and near the railway bridge across the river with deodorziing tanks so as to render the sewage water flowing into the river comparatively pure. The Local Board did not adopt this report, but re- commended their Surveyor to make inquiries at various places where experiments had been made as to the disposal of sewage. In the meantime the Local Board directed the enlargement of the existing outfall, which was done. The Wakefield Waterworks Company and the Aire and Calder Navigation Company having heard that the Local Board contemplated making a new outfall near the railway bridge, the former Company on October 6, 1856, and the latter Company on October 25, 1856, served notice upon the Board of their intention to take proceedings at law and in º against the Board in case the new outfall were Iſla (HC. On 17th November 1856, the Board appointed a Com- mittee to consider the objections of the above Companies and to make inquiries and obtain information generally as to the best mode of making the proposed outfall sewer near the railway bridge and disposing of the sewage refuse, and on 4th February 1857, the then Borough Surveyor by the direction of this Committee, reported to the Board on the subjects referred to the Committee and the report was printed. After considerable discussion, however, it was determined not to make the new outfall, and deodorizing works con- nected therewith in the face of the opposition of the above Companies but to wait until a Commission to be appointed by the Government should devise some scheme for the disposal of the sewage. James Whitham first knew the river Calder in 1820. It was then nearly as pure as river water ordinarily is, and fish were numerous both above and below the Soke Mill Dam, and this state of things continued pretty nearly in the same position till about 30 years ago, when the river began to get gradually polluted, and the pollution has been going on increasing from that time to the present. The river is polluted nearly as badly as it can be before it reaches Wakefield. The Wakefield Waterworks Company derive the principal portion of their water from the river, about three miles below the town, the residue being supplied from land springs. The waterwoks were first established by virtue of an Act passed 8 June, 1837, which authorized a share capital of 15,000l., in shares of 25l. each, with power to raise an additional 5000l. by mortgage. In 1861 the Com- pany gave notice of their intention to apply for another Act to authorize them to obtain an addtional supply of water from the neighbourhood of East Ardsley and about four miles nearly north of Wakefield. The Local Board caused this scheme to be examined by Mr. Bateman and the water to be analyzed by Mr. Dugald Campbell, and these gentle- men respectively having reported that the supply would be deficient and that the water was not fit for human con- sumption the Board petitioned against the Bill, and en- tered into a negotiation with the Company to purchase their works with a view afterwards to adopt a better scheme. In March 1862 the Company and the Local Board settled in writing the terms of an agreement whereby the Board were to purchase the Companies’ works at the price of the then share capital (28,500!), to be paid on 1st July 1870, with interest from 1st July 1863, when the Board were to take possession, subject to all the liabilities of the Company at the latter date. The Company were to abandon their Bill except so far as related to the money part, and the expenses of the Company were to be paid by the Board. The Board were to apply in the then next Session for an Act to carry the agreement into effect and were to be at liberty to include in such Act powers for obtaining supply of water and other usual powers, The agreement was to be subject to the confirmation of a public meeting of the inhabitants of Wakefield and of 3/5ths of the shareholders in the Company. RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. º r On 24 March 1862, a public meeting of the inhabitants was held, when the following resolution was carried by a large majority:- - - - - - - - “That in the opinion of this meeting it is inexpedient for the Wakefield Town Council as the Local Board of Health of this Borough to purchase the works, lands, premises, rights and privileges of the Wakefield water- works. In consequence the contemplated purchase was aban- doned, and on the following day it was agreed between the Board and the Company that the Company should abandon their new water scheme, and should make their bill simply a money bill, and that the Board should withdraw their opposition to such bill. On 30 June, 1862 the new Act of the Company (25 and 26 Vict., c. 99) was passed. It totally repeals all former ital £21,000 Acts of the company. Sec. 13 enacts oldºſta º that the capital of the company shall New Capital * consist of $40 25l. and 600 131, 10s, shares already created, and of such shares as might be created under the row *" powers of the new Act. Sec. 15 gives £68,700 power to create new shares to the amount in the whole of 26,500l. Sec. 20 gives power to borrow 13,700l. Sec. 39 gives power to the company to maintain and improve their existing works, and (expressly) to take water from the Calder. Sec. 50 defines the limits of the Act to be the town and township of Wakefield, and the townships of Alverthorpe with Thornes Stanley cum £55,000 Power to bor- 13,700 Wrenthorpe and Sandal Magna. Sec. 51 fixes the following rates for water rents for domestic use in a dwelling- house :— £ s. d. Annual rent or value not exceeding - - 4:10-0 14 0 per year Do. - - - £20–1 4 0 , Do. - - - #30–1 15 0 , Do. - - - £40–2 5 0 , Do. - 460–3 0 0 , Above 60l. 5 per cent. upon the annual rent or value, and the Company are not to be obliged to furnish a supply to any owner or occupier for less than 10s, a year. Sec. 52 enacts that the water rent shall be payable according to the actual rack-rent or value. Sec. 53 enacts that domestic purposes shall not include waterclosets, or cattle, or horses, or washing carriages let for hire, or for any trade, garden, or ornamental purpose. Sec. 54 enacts that waterclosets shall be charged 6s., and baths in houses 8s. each. By sec. 56, the Company may supply water for other than domestic purposes by contract. By sec. 61 the Company shall not be bound to supply water to the Corporation for public purposes at a lower rate than the lowest rate that the company charge to the largest consumers. Since the passing of their last Act the company have laid out a considerable sum of money in a new pumping engine, larger mains, and in carrying out Mr. Simpson’s plan of filtration; but the evidence as to these points will be given by other witnesses. Mr. HENRY MORGAN (Deputy Town Clerk of Wakefield) examined. 86. (Chairman.) What is the area of the borough 2 —1,553a. 2r. 30p., and the population is 23,350, according to the last census. 87. Has it increased since that time 2—We estimate it now to be 25,000. 88. What is the rateable value of the town 2–In round numbers, 71,000l. 89. Has the corporation authority over the police 2 —Yes. 90. And the lighting, watching, and scavenging *— Yes; the Municipal Corporation Act is in force in Wakefield, the Public Health Act, and the Local Government Act. 91. Are there any independent townships that have separate jurisdictions?—Not any. I may state that the borough of Wakefield consists of the whole of the township of Wakefield, and parts of the townships of Alverthorpe with Thornes, and Stanley with Wren- thorpe. 92. (Mr. Harrison.) What has been the cause of the increase of the population since 1861 —Trade seems much better than it was some few years ago; there have been many more new buildings erected, and more manufacturing has been going on. 93. What are those manufactures —I think the principal increase has been in the worsted manufacture; also some large ironworks have been established in Wakefield, and a cocoa-nut fibre company. 94. Are there any dyeworks in the town 2–-I have begun to make a list, and I will complete it for the Commissioners ; but so far as the names have been taken out (and the last work has been done by one of the officers of the corporation), there are in Wake- field now 11 worsted, woollen, and cloth manufac- tories, four fibre mills, two soap and greaseworks. nine dyeworks, 58 malt kilns, and five large breweries: but, in addition to the breweries, there are about 65 publicans who brew themselves. The number of the flour mills has not been taken out, because it was supposed they would not pollute the stream. 95. Do all those trades you have mentioned more or less pollute the stream —Yes. There are also some three or four chemical works, which will more or less pollute the stream. 96. What is manufactured there 2–I do not know. Messrs. Hicks are manufacturers of copperas and sulphate of iron. 97. Are the dyeworks on a large scale —One or two of them are on a large scale, for instance, those of Messrs. Holdsworth, and Messrs. Hodgson, Shaw, and Dent, a little above the dam. 98. Does all the refuse from their works go directly into the river ?—I believe it does. In addition to those places there is the prison, which discharges, I believe, all its refuse—or they did so till very recently —into sewers which run into the river. 99. Is the system of waterclosets carried out to any great extent in the town – I believe information will be given to you as to that by the surveyor, but I understand there are about 350 waterclosets which are supplied by the water from the waterworks company, and an estimate has been made as to the number of the waterclosets which have cisterns, and they are perhaps 200. 100. (Professor Way.) You say there are 58 malt kilns –Yes. 101. Do they pollute the river ?—Complaints have been made to the corporation at different times about smells and other things arising from the sewers in connexion with those malt kilns. 102. Is any part of the barley likely to be thrown into the sewers or the river ?–That I cannot say. I only know that there have been frequent complaints made of very offensive and bad smells from drains connected with the breweries. 103. You spoke of cocoa-nut fibre being manu- factured —Yes, cocoa-nut fibre and china grass. 104. What is that 2–Rhea. 105. Does it go through a chemical process in pre- paration ?—I cannot say. 106. Is it within your own knowledge that the river Was comparatively pure, and contained fish within the last 25 or 30 years?—I have seen fish in the river is years ago. 107. Was that above or below the town 2–It was near the bridge. I have seen people getting them out. 108. Are there no fish in the river now ?—Not of any kind. 109. No eels 2–No. 110. (Mr. Harrison.) When the Aire and Calder Navigation Act was first passed there were two bodies : contractors who undertook the execution of the work, with whom it was a speculation, and Commissioners, whose business it was to look after the contractors, to see that they did their duty. Do WAKE- FIELD. Mr. J. Rhodes. 16 Oct. 1866. Mr. H. Morgan. A 3 6 RIVERS COMMISSION :-- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WAKE- FIELD. Mr. H. Morgan. 16 Oct. 1866. Mr. J. Oakes. - those Commissioners still continue to act 2–I am not aware that there are any Commissioners. 111. You say that since the waterworks were established, in 1837, waterclosets have been largely introduced, and that the outlet of the sewers is in the same place as it was before ; there must therefore be a much larger quantity of sewage issuing at that point than before waterclosets were established 2–Yes, owing to the increase of population. In addition to that, I believe that the Local Board of Health, since its establishment, has caused many ashpits to be drained, the contents of which find their way into the Sewers. 112. (Professor Way.) Was the outlet at first established for the purpose of the surface drainage of the town, and was it made use of subsequently for the drainage of the cesspools —At first, of course, it would have been for the surface water. 113. Do you live in the town 2–Yes. 114. What water is supplied to you ?—From the waterworks. 115. Do you drink it 2–Yes. 116. Do you like it or dislike it?—I dislike it; but the water is very much clearer this year than it has been for many years back. 117. Has that been since the introduction of the new system of filtration ?—Yes, it is very much harder. I have to use much more soap in washing In OW- 118. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you any analysis of the water 2–No. I have here a paper which I have drawn out, showing the rateable value of the property within the borough. The same was handed in as follows: BOROUGH OF WAKEFIELD. 1851 1861. Population of the Borough - 22,066 23,350 Rateable value of Property. s. d. £ s. d. 1848 - 56,596 15 4 1858 – 62,652 10 0 1849 - 56,909 17 4 1859 - 61,131 18 8 1850 57,759, 6 7 1860 - 60.205 l 2 1851 - No Rate. 1861 - 60,855 8-4 1852 – 58,376 6 2 1862 - 61,258 8 5 1853 - 59,165 13 0 | 1863 - 62,242 17 3 1854 - 59,513 18 2 1864 - 63,439 I 11 1855 - 59,591 8 7 1865 - 70,844 18 3 1856 - 60,062 19 1 1866 - 72,461 9 5 1857 - 59,998 12 9 The witness also handed in the following papers : |BOROUGH OF WAKEFIELD. RIVERS Pollution INQUIRy.—RETURN of the number of Mills, Manufactories, Dyeworks, Maltkilns, Breweries, and other places discharging refuse into the river Calder, or into streams communicating therewith. Worsted, Woollen, and Cloth Mills - 12 Fibre Mills - - - - 6 Soap and Grease works - - - 3 Dye works - - - - 9 Maltkilns - - - - 58 Breweries - - - - 5 Brewhouses chiefly attached to Public-houses 60 Public slaughterhouses - (in one block) 5 Private ditto. - - - 23 West Riding Prison - - - I West Riding Asylum - - - l 183 BOROUGH OF WAKEFIELD. RIVERS Pollution INQUIRY.–PopULATION of the principal Towns and places on or near the banks of the Calder between Todmorden and Wakefield both inclusive. Taken from the census tables, 1861. Todmorden - - - 11,797 Luddenden - - - - 3,008 Sowerby Bridge - - - 5,382 Hebden Bridge - - - 10.826 Skircoat - - - - 7,447 Halifax - - - - 28,990 Southowram - - - - 7,245 Elland - - - - 3,643 Brighouse - - - - 7,340 Mirfield - - - - 9,263 Dewsbury - - - - 18,148 Thornhill - - - - 3,479 Horbury - - - - 3,246 Wakefield - - - - 23,350 143,164 PopULATION of the districts through which the River Calder passes. Taken from the census tables, pub- lished by authority. - 1801 1811 1821 1831. 1841. 1851. 1861. -- -- - Todmorden 15,550 | 19,320 24,852 28,622 || 31,656 29,727 || 31,113 Halifax 52,02 59,475 || 75,190 | 89,739 ||109,073 120,958 196,475 Dewsbury - 29,730 34,832 || 41,668 50,232 60,709 || 71,768 92,883 Wakefield - 27,617 | 30,552 || 35,666 || 38,376 || 45,698 || 50,614 || 55,049 124,924 || 144,179 |177,376 206,969 | 247,136 273,067 375,520 The witness withdrew. Mr. JAMEs OAREs (of Wakefield) examined. 119. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you a native of Wake- field 2–I was born near the banks of the Calder, a mile above Wakefield, and I have a familiar acquain- tance with the river from Wakefield Bridge up to Lupsett, about two miles above Wakefield. From 1826 to 1830 I had, during the greater part of the year, to cross the river twice every day, and walk a quarter of a mile down its banks. I have frequently bathed in it during that period, and spent many of my Saturday afternoons fishing in it. I have fre- quently drunk the water, and seen other persons drink it. I have seen at Wakefield Bridge, and in other shallow parts, hundreds of fishes at certain periods of the year. I have seen pike of all sizes taken out during the floods, and I have seen trout up to three pounds in weight—up to 1830 I speak of— and I think I can confirm the statement of the town clerk that the water was as pure as rivers ordinarily are. I think I may say from recollection that the water was as pure as that which the waterworks company furnishes to us now. I do not wish to say anything against the company’s water, for I do not use it. Last year the water just below Lupsett Dam, which is nearly two miles above Wakefield, and there- fore not contaminated by Wakefield, was really filthy. To one standing on the bank of the river at that time (last September) the smell was almost unendurable, and enough to make one ill. I do not think that there is a single fish in the river during all that length, from Wakefield down to the place I have mentioned. 120. Did you ever find the condition of the river to be the cause of ill health to any of the inhabitants on the banks —I find that it has been the cause of fever in what is called Thorne's Lane, about half a mile above Wakefield Soke Mills, during the last summer and the summer previously; at least, the fever was believed to be caused by the bad smell of the river. Iwalked two years ago from Wakefield Bridge to Stanley Ferry, which is a little above the waterworks, and the colour of the water was black, and all along the bank for several feet towards the centre of the river, the water was covered with a slimy, offensive looking material. 121. What was the condition of the bed of the river between 1826 and 1830?–It was clean gravel. 122. What is its condition now 2–Now, in many places there is a black deposit. 123. Of what thickness?—I cannot say. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 7 124. Within the borough of Wakefield ºthere are large dyeworks?—Yes. 125. Was wool-from a Bradford and other towns formerly brought to Wakefield to be dyed —Yes, a good deal. --> --> - - 126. Was there more dying carried on upon the upper parts of the Calder and the Aire at that time * —I think not ; it was chiefly done here. 127. Since then dye works have been established on different parts of the river above Wakefield —They have, but thereºis some Bradford trade now done in dyeing. I do not think, however, that the estab- lishment which has been referred to does more than half the business it did 30 years ago. 128. What was the condition of the river in 1837, when the water works were established 2–I think the condition of the river was very much better than it is now. I was not resident in the town then. I speak distinctly of the period from 1826 to 1830. 129. You have been away?—Yes; from 1833 to 1840 I was away. 130. Did you observe a great alteration in the con- dition of the river when you returned in 1840?–Not much; it has taken place since that time. There were fish in the river then. It was common to see fishermen passing through our village to the river, but that has ceased during the last 15 or 20 years. 131. To what do you attribute the altered condition of the river ?—I believe that the chief mischief to our river comes from above. I do not think there is any material pollution from Wakefield, except what occurs from an increase of population. The worsted has to be scoured to get the oil out. When I was a youth all the worsted manufactories sent their refuse into the river; now all that grease is recovered; the liquid is run into cisterns and evaporated. 132. Is that system carried on in Wakefield –At every manufactory suds are saved in a cistern, and purchased by a party who refines them. I should say that in consequence Wakefield causes less pollution to the river than it did 40 years since, except so far as there may be increased pollution from increased popu- lation. 133. From the sewage, and from the use of water- closets 2–Yes. As far as manufactories are concerned, I do not think Wakefield pollutes the river so much as it did then. 134. What was the population of Wakefield in 1820?–From 12,000 to 14,000, but I cannot say positively. 135. (Professor Way.) You spoke of some cases of fever which were supposed to be due to the state of the river ; was there any official notice taken of those cases 2–I believe so. 136. Were any complaints made 2–I believe so. 137. Can you name the surgeon who was in attend- ance?—I cannot. The drains in that part are liable to be flushed by the floods in the river. 138. What class of manufactories do you consider most pollutes the river ?–Dye works. 139. Do you think that if the river Calder had remained at Wakefield as pure, or comparatively as pure, as it was some years ago, the dyeing processes, instead of falling off, would have increased very largely 2–I have not the least doubt of it. What brought the trade here was the reputation that the water was so pure here, and the dyeing consequently superior. 140. Then the dyers are their own victims, in fact? —It seems so. 141. Are you familiar with manufactures to any extent 2–No. 142. Do you believe that the manufacturers will take any means to purify the water if it is not made compulsory upon them —I do not think they are willing to do so; nothing but compulsion will accomplish the matter. - 143. (Mr. Harrison.) The mayor stated that the river Calder was very little subject to flooding. Is that the case within your knowledge –It more fre- quently overflowed 40 years ago than it does now. My father had a field near to the river, and when there was any considerable flood the lower part of the field was covered with water. I have seen a deposit of an inch or an inch and a half on the lower part of that field, but of late years, I do not know from what cause, the floods have not been so high, and the field is not so liable to be covered with water. 144. I suppose in 1852 the river overflowed its banks considerably *—Yes. I have heard the old folks speak of very considerable floods, but we have nothing like them now. 145. (Professor Way.) The town of Wakefield does not suffer much from flooding?—No. The witness withdrew. Mr. John Edward DIBB handed in a printed paper, headed “On the Water Supply,” by Mr. G. F. Naylor. 146. (Mr. Harrison to Mr. Dibb.) Have you read this paper ?--I did, very carefully, at the time of its publication. - 147. Do you think that reliance can be placed on its contents —I think it is a most singularly reliable paper. I do not think I ever read one more clear and distinct and logical on any subject whatever. I may mention that I have in my house a spring of remarkably clear and brilliant hard water, but I have for many years deliberately closed it, and have used the water of the waterworks company because I found the spring water so hard as to be detrimental to health. I always subject the water of the company to addi- tional filtration in the house, and I believe that the health of my family has been considerably enhanced by adopting the waterworks water in place of the clear spring water. 148. What is your process of filtration ?—I have several. I use Dahlke's Patent Water Purifier, recom- ºf on mended by Dr. Letheby, and adopted by the Drinking Fountain Association, supplied by S. Maw, Alders. gate Street, London. It is a white china filter, with a charcoal medium, and it has a singularly bright- ening effect on the water. 149. Have you been many years resident here 2– Yes, since 1840. 150. You probably heard the evidence of the last witness as to the increased pollution of the river since then *-Yes. , My belief is that the increased pollu- tion of the river mainly arises from the additional sewage, which additional sewage chiefly results from an increase of the population and the waterclosets set up since the establishment of the waterworks com- an W. 151. (Professor Way.) Your observations have reference to the water below Wakefield. What can you say as to the condition of the water above Wake- field –-I have no practical knowledge of that. Mr. Joseph Johnson (Inspector of Nuisances of Wakefield) examined. 152. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you been long resident in Wakefield –Yes, I was born here. 153. How many years have you been inspector of nuisances 2–About 14. - 154. Under the corporation ?–Yes. 155. As a local board of health 2–Yes. 156. Has the condition of the town improved during . time 2—Many sanitary improvements have been Ina Cle. 157. What have they consisted of 2–Making drains in a great many of the bad streets, and improvements in the privy accommodation. Ash-pits have been rebuilt; old ones have been taken down that were in a bad state, and new ones substituted. 158. And water closets introduced 2–Yes, in some instances ; but many of the ash-pits have been improved. 159. What has been the effect of those improve- WAKE- FIELD. Mr. J. Oakes. 16 Oct, 1866. - Mr. J. E. Dibb. Mr. J. Johnson. A 4 8 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAKE- FIELD. Mr. J. Johnson. 16 Oct. 1866. ments as to increasing or diminishing the quantity of refuse discharged into the river ?—We have no less discharged into the river, but more. It is not allowed to lodge on the premises in the cesspools and such like. 160. Have many of the cesspools been done away with entirely 2–Yes. - 161. But not universally —No. 162. What proportion has been done away with ?— There exist but very few, only in the localities where drains have not been made ; but we are making drains there now. 163. So that almost all the sewage and refuse of the town now goes into the river ?—It does. 164. Has that occurred within the period of your being inspector of nuisances 2–It is more the case now than it was when I first took office. 165. Before that there were cesspits, and the con- tents were carted away into the country —Yes, by the farmers. 166. And that refuse is discharged into the river above the point from which the waterworks company take their water P-It is. 167. (Chairman.) How many ashpits are there in Wakefield 2–About 1,400 or 1,500. 168. What size are they generally 2–They vary considerably, according to the number of the houses. As a general rule they are about three yards by two. 169. Of what depth are they —About a yard below the surface. 170. What quantity might be taken out of one of those ashpits in the shape of horse-loads 2—About three 2-horse loads on an average. 171. How many 2-horse loads of that refuse is carted out of Wakefield in a year?—The smaller ones have to be emptied out about three times a year, and the larger ones perhaps twice a year. 172. Might I say that the 1,500 were emptied twice a year 2–Yes. 173. That would be about 9,000 2-horse loads in a year —Yes. 174. Have you ever seen any of those ash places overflowing with the soil from the privies?—Yes. 175. On the floor of the privy —Yes. 176. And overflowing into the yard —Not exactly into the yard. 177. Are any of those ashpits or middens situated close against the walls of dwelling-houses —Yes. 178. Are any of them situated underneath buildings that are inhabited 2–Yes. 179. Underneath the rooms ?—Yes. 180. Have any complaints been made by the inha- bitants of the houses adjoining, or those living in the rooms above —Yes, occasionally. 181. Have you known fever prevailin those houses? —I have. 182. Of what kind –Typhus. 183. Do you remember any special time or year when it was worse at one time than another ?—It has been as bad this year in some parts of the town as ever I knew it. 184. Since last Christmas?—Yes. 185. Has it been a wet year or a dry year 2—In the spring we had dry weather, and in the summer it was dry. iss What kind of weather have you had during the autumn 2–Very wet. 187. Long-continued wet?—Yes. 188. When has disease been worst; in dry weather 2 —No, in the wet weather. 189. At what time do you empty those ashpits; at what hours ?—Chiefly in the night. Between 9 at night and 8 o'clock in the morning. 190. Have you, as inspector of nuisances, attended much during the time that the cesspits have been emptied ?–Yes, very often. 191. Do any of the inhabitants complain when they are being emptied ?—They complain when they are not emptied. 192. Do they complain when they are emptied ?– Not often 193. They are glad to get the material taken away ? —Very glad. It is the greatest difficulty in Wake- field. 194. Are those ashpits usually situated behind the dwelling-houses 2–Yes. 195. Are there always passages or yards by which they can be approached 2–Yes. 196. Have you known instances where the material has been carried or wheeled through the interior of the house into the lobby ?—Yes, there are several instances in the town where thematerial must be taken through the dwelling-houses and front shops. 197. What condition are they in when the cesspits are being emptied ?–They are very bad; but I obviate the evil by letting the people have disinfecting powder. 198. To mix with the refuse?—Yes. 199. Under any conditions it is an intolerable nuisance to the people at any time?—Yes, it is indeed. 200. Are there many waterclosets in the town 2– Yes. 201. In what class of property are they –In the better class of property. 202. Are there any attached to the cottages 2– Some few, but they have not answered from the fact that the occupiers have not flushed them. They have abused them very much, and the owners have been put to very great expense. The local board of health would have carried them out to a greater extent had the occupiers paid proper attention to them. 203. Is there any difference in the people of Wake- field, as compared with those in London, in the use of such kind of accommodation ?—I am sure I do not know how they do in London. It is very difficult to deal with them here. 204. In those places where conveniences are situate under the rooms, or in close contact to the dwelling- houses, would it not be a great improvement if the ashpits could be abolished, and the soil passed away daily —That has often occurred to me. 205. There would then be nothing but dry ashes to deal with ?—No ; and it would be more healthy in these confined parts of the town. 206. Would it cost the town any more to remove those ashes every week, instead of twice a year — Yes, a considerable deal more. 207. Why?—In the first instance it does not devolve upon the local authorities to do it. The law, as it at present stands, compels the occupiers to do it them- seives. 208. Why then should they express pleasure at the contents of their ashpits being removed if the removal depends upon themselves?—Because they have a great difficulty in getting the farmers to remove it. 209. The farmers will only take it at such times as their teams are not otherwise occupied ?–Yes. 210. When does that occur –The greatest diffi- culty occurs during hay time and harvest and seed time. 211. Do the people pay the farmers for taking it away, or do the farmers pay for the privilege of taking it away?—The inhabitants are very glad to give it. 212. Have they to give anything in addition ?—In some instances they do. 213. Would it not be a general benefit if the borough undertook regularly and systematically to cleanse all those places, irrespective of the conveni- ence of the farmers ?—The town would be much more healthy. 214. Would the process be much more costly —I think so, and I will show you why. The local board at times, when the town is in a very bad state, directs me to employ men to remove this soil, and in doing so we have had at times to shoot it into quarries and bury it. That has been the only means we have had to get quit of it. 215. That would occasion an increased cost?— Yes. 216. What do you suppose it costs now each owner to cleanse his ashpit *—Taking it as a matter of cost, it is not much. Men already go to clear out the RIVERS COMMISSION: —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 9 dust-bins; but the greatest difficulty is where there is a long way to wheel up long passages and very nar- row. The work requires a great deal more labour, and there is more expense in finding lights. 217. Have you any trouble with the private slaughter-houses —Not a very great deal of trouble. 218. Are those places kept clean, or are complaints made about them —Taking Wakefield as a rule, and the slaughter-houses in other towns, I think there are none to beat Wakefield. 219. Do you mean private slaughter-houses?–Yes, private ones. The public one has not been kept so clean as I should like to have seen it, and sometimes I have brought the parties before the magistrates for neglecting their duties. 220. Does it belong to a company –Yes. 221. If the corporation owned the slaughter-houses could things be carried on better?—I think the slaughter-houses could be kept much cleaner and be managed much better. They are now leased by the butchers themselves for their own accommodation, and they have put a man in to manage them or rather mis- manage them. 222. What becomes of the refuse that is made at the public and private slaughter-houses?—It is carted away by the farmers. 223. What do they do with the blood 2–It is at present sent to Manchester ; it had for some years been taken to Leeds. 224. To be used for manufacturing purposes — Yes, for cloth establishments, in cleansing and scour: 1119. 325. Have you any knowledge as to whether cattle are at all injured by drinking polluted water?—Cattle will not drink the water that comes down this river now. I have seen cattle drink it formerly. It used to be a regular occurrence to take the horses into it to drink it, and also cattle ; but in consequence of its impurity they are not taken there now. 226. Will not cattle drink out of a farmyard pond, which receives a considerable amount of drainage from the yard –If the water is good. - 227. You say that they will not drink the river water?—They will not. 228. Have you seen much of the recent cattle plague?—Yes. 229. Has it prevailed much in the vicinity of Wake- field 2–Not so much as in some other parts. 230. Have you had any diseased cattle that have died or have been slaughtered in Wakefield –Yes. 231. Where did you bury them —At the outskirts of the town. - 232. In such positions that the matter from them could get into the watercourses —It could not. 233. Do you find any difficulty in performing your duties as inspector of nuisances; are you resisted at all by parties —Not in a general way, and I am pretty well received by the inhabitants. 234. (Mr. Harrison.) You mentioned that the ash- pits were a great nuisance to the neighbours frequently before they were removed, and that people complained of them 2–Yes. 235. Have there been cases of sickness arising from those ashpits?—Not that I am aware of. I am always very pleased to supply disinfecting powder when I know they are in a bad state. I am now sending a cargo of refuse away by boat to farmers in the country, and I shall report to the local board of health what success I have had, how much the removal has cost, and what I have made of the refuse. It is likely to improve the state of the town without any material loss; and I do not doubt that the local authorities will carry some such regulation out. 236. What do you expend for the borough in a year for disinfecting powder—take this year –I laid out for the borough about a month ago 4!. I gave that for a ton of Dr. Bishop's powder from Leeds. 237. How long will that last 3–Perhaps two or three months yet. We also use quicklime and soot. 238. To what cost is the borough put altogether 17 1 59.-2. for disinfectants of one kind and another in a year 2– It would not run over 10l. a year altogether. 239. I think you stated that there had been typhus fever arising from the state of the cesspits?—I did not say that exactly ; but it is in some of the worst parts of the town, the Iower parts, near the railway station, that are the most enclosed. 240. Are those parts inhabited by people who come upon the rates for relief?—Yes, occasionally; but it is only through their own bad habits; they are people who could get plenty of good work if they would only attend to it; but instead of that they are an improvi- dent class, and spend their money in drink, and for want of a proper regard to cleanliness they bring on this disease themselves. - 241. It would be for the benefit of the town if the condition of their houses were improved ?–Yes. 242. And in that way relieve the rates ?—Yes. I may state also that the medical officer of the local board of health examined into the matter, and also the borough surveyor, and as an effect of their examina- tion the local board have given notice to drain that part and to put in proper stench traps, and I believe that all those regulations will speedily be carried out. 243. Are the nightmen who are employed to remove the contents of those cesspits ever affected 2–I never knew but one. I sent a man into one place, it was a cesspool where the gases were quite confined; he igno- rantly went into that place, and there were hundreds of gallons to be removed, and the gases made him ill; he went home and was taken with typhus ſever. That is the only case that I have known. 244. (Chairman.) How long ago was that 2–About a year since. I did not know he was going in : he went in without my authority. I told him to raise the flags, and I would go myself and disinfect it; but when I got there he had been in the cesspit. 245. In cases of that kind you think that those places may be so poisonous as to be dangerous to health –Yes, where the gases are confined. 246. (Professor Way.) This was a case in which the cesspool was a close one?—Yes, at the house of a gentleman, Mr. Smith, a solicitor. 247. Did you hear Mr. Oakes give his evidence 2– Yes. 248. He stated that there had been cases of fever about the town, which he attributed to the river. Are you aware of anything of the kind?—The river smells very bad at times. 249. Has it come within your knowledge that any person has become ill from that cause –I will not undertake to say so of my own knowledge. 250. Should you have known it if it had occurred do you think?—Yes. 251. (Chairman.) In what part of the town has the cholera made its appearance within the last few days * —In the low part of the town, very near the locality I have spoken of, where typhus fever was so bad. 252. What is the name of the place —Sunderland Yard and Thorne's Lane, near the railway arch. 253. Cholera has broken out now, where typhus has before prevailed, very severely –Yes, close by there. I may also state that in the West Riding prison there are 1,460 prisoners, 115 officers, and 15 other persons residing, and the excrements are thrown into the cess- pools and carried through the drains into the river twice a month. About the 1st and 15th of every month the cesspools are flushed. 254. In what condition is the river at those times 2 —Awful. Up to a few months past the sewage was let out into the beck—Westgate Beck—when it found its outlet into this running stream, and it had to pass through this locality, where fever has been so bad, and where this person died of cholera. The parties have told me repeatedly that they have been almost poisoned out by the stench. 255. When the flushing of those cesspools takes place –Yes. There is a great deal of hot water that comes from the mills which runs down this beck, and it aggravates the stench, and causes it to boil up on the top, and it becomes of various colours. B - WAKE- FIELI). Mr. J. Johnson. 16 Oct. 1866. - 10. - RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAKE- FIELD. Mr. a/. Johnson. 16 Oct. 1866. --- Mr. W. S. Wade. 256. You have the Wakefield prison cesspool matter turned into the river ?–Yes, that is really so. 257. (Mr. Harrison.) Is that above the waterworks? —Yes, and close by the town. 258. (Professor Way.) I suppose such a discharge would be infinitely more than if it were passed day by day into the river ?–Yes, much worse. 259. (Chairman.) Have you observed any differ- ence in the condition of those ashpits as to the stench, whether they are old or new, and whether they have been three months or 12 months or longer accumu- lating 2–The old ones are the worst. 260. In Wakefield gaol, does not the keeping of the refuse in tanks for the time which has been specified cause it to become putrid and to stink?—Most decidedly. 261. If this refuse were passed away day by day and every day, the stink would not be so powerful ?–No. 262. The same quantity would be taken away, but under different conditions?—Yes, and it would not be so disagreeable. - 263. It goes down an open ditch, does it not *—It did so, but for about two months past it has been turned into a drain which the local authorities have made. 264. To drain the gaol P-Not expressly for that purpose, but it has that effect ; the outlet is the same. 265. (Professor Way.) What object is there in allowing it to collect for a fortnight, and then dis- charging it; is it to economise the water P-I cannot state. I asked that question from some of the officers of the prison, but I did not receive an answer. 266. Is no part of this sewage matter used for manure ?—I am told not. 267. (Chairman.) Have they ever tried it 2–Not that I am aware of; they are about doing so; they are thinking of it. 268. (Professor Way.) The object of the tank is not for the sake of collecting the manure to put on land –It is not. 269. (Chairman.) There is a large asylum here 2– Yes. 270. How many persons are there in it —Officers and inmates altogether, 1,320; and the same kind of matter has all to pass through the centre of the town. 271. Is that retained in cesspits or in tanks for a length of time —I cannot state how long, but the inhabitants along the side of the drain say that the worst stench is perceived about once in every week; it is offensive every day, but on one particular day in the week it is almost unbearable. The witness Mr. WILLIAM Swift WADE 283. (Chairman.) Are you in practice in Wakefield? —Yes, as a general practitioner. I am a licentiate of the College of Physicians of Edinburgh. I practise generally both in surgery and medicine. I am Medical Officer of Health for the borough of Wakefield. 284. How long have you been in practice in Wake- field –Between four and five years. - 285. Have you seen much typhus fever in that time? —I have not seen a great deal as compared with other towns. We have had typhoid, but there has been no typhus here since 1849. 286. Have you found extra prevalence of disease in the neighbourhood of polluted streams, sewers, and foul ashpits 2–I have. - 287. Have you had reason to think that these have in any way intensified the disease ?—I can mention one particular case that happened a few weeks ago, the case of a woman I was called to. She lived in a yard called Wood's Yard, in Providence Street. Above 200 people live there. There are only two privies for all of them, and one midden in the centre between the two privies. The steps leading to her house were immediately over that midden and over one of the privies, so that any stench from those places would be likely to go into her door. She died in about eight days. 272. Has there been any attempt to utilize this refuse – I am not in the least aware that there has. What is still worse the lunatic asylum is out of the borough, and there they might have made a drain to carry it the other way into the river and below the waterworks’ reservoir, which would not have caused this annoyance which has been often complained of as a great nuisance. 273. The refuse now goes into the river above the waterworks –Yes; it all goes to one outlet. 274. Can you state what number of inmates there are in the workhouse?—There are about 600, Tunder- stand, in the workhouse, and I believe they collect the privy matter there. - 275. What do they do with the privy matter?— They have a great deal of land, and they make use of it. I am told that that is so. I have a good oppor- tunity of seeing the drainage that comes to our place, and I have never seen any animal matter of this description brought down the drain. 276. How long ago is it since the cholera broke out? —Last Tuesday a person died in the lower part of the town, near Sunderland Yard. 277. How many other cases have occurred since then, if any –None ; there was only that one case. 278. (Mr. Harrison.) Was the case that occurred imported 2–No ; he was a man that had been working here for about two years, and a very steady man, of very regular habits. - - 279. (Professor Way.) If you were asked to point out the sources of pollution of the river Calder, at which would you begin if you began at the worst? —I would alter the outlet altogether. 280. I am speaking of the sources of pollution; which is the greatest, the sewage, or the refuse from the manufactures —They are all very bad. I cannot say which is the worst. In the town I should say the prison is the worst, but the manufactories cause a deal of pollution as well. 281. The river receives sewage above the town 2– There is more comes from above than is sent out from the town. When I was a boy, and before the water- works were established, the river water was used by brewers and for domestic purposes generally. It was carted about in water-barrels; they sold it from 8d. to 10d. a barrel. My own mother brewed with it, and used it generally for domestic purposes. 282. Is it used for domestic purposes now 2–No, it cannot be, it is so very bad. withdrew. (of Wakefield) examined. 288. Is that same house occupied now P-I cannot say, but I think it is probable. 289. Have you any authority as medical officer to direct that house to be closed as unfit for human habitation ?—I do not think I have, at least not to enforce such a direction. 290. Have you directed any house to be closed since you have been medical officer –Yes; at least one house has been closed by the inspector of nuisances where there was a case of typhoid fever. - 291. (Mr. Harrison.) I presume you report a ease of the kind you have mentioned 2–Yes. I reported the case I alluded to the Town Council. 292. Was any action taken by the Town Council —Not to my knowledge, beyond cleaning out the midden; it was cleaned out. 293. (Chairman.) Have you paid sufficient attention to be able to say whether a full or an empty midden smells the worst 2–An empty one. When the night soil has begun to come in it smells the worst, and then the ashes have a neutralizing effect. 294. If it is foul when full you cannot call it cleansing it when you empty it 2–Not unless some- thing to disinfect it is applied afterwards. 295. How long have you been acting as medical officer –Only a few weeks, RIVERS COMMISSION: – MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, I1 296. You advise the council in case of any out- break of disease, or when the inspector of nuisances wishes to have your opinion ?–Yes. I have also to inspect diseased meat that the inspector of nuisanees seizes. He calls me in, and I give evidence before the magistrates. 297. Do you know the general character of the river ?—I do. 298. Do you think it ought to be purified, if practicable? — I certainly do ; it requires it very much. 299. You probably heard what was stated as to the sewage of the borough, the gaol, and the asylum passing into the river, and you are aware that the water so contaminated is pumped and filtered for domestic supply –It is ; and I think it is very objectionable, both in this and in all other towns, to turn any sewage into a river. 299a, You think it ought to be prevented 2–Yes, even if the river water is not used for drinking pur- poses, I think it circulates poison all through the land. 300. Is it your experience that the ash middens are a great nuisance 2–It is. 301. You say that in one case you think you traced direct injury to health. Do you think that that is a common case?—Yes, I do. 302. If it was possible to substitute soil pans for privies to take away the soil—every day and every hour, and have dry ashes alone to remove, would not that be an improvement 2–Yes; it would cause a great improvement in the health of the inhabitants round about those places. If it could be done without taking the night soil into the river, it would be a still greater advantage. I should recommend the substi- tution of waterclosets for privies in those crowded neighbourhoods, and I should still more do so if from those waterclosets the matter was not taken into the river for us to drink again. 303. Have you had any experience of the use of waterclosets by the working classes 2 – No, not in my own experience, but from what I have heard, there is great difficulty in getting them to keep them in a good condition. 304. Should you be surprised to hear that all over the poorer districts of London privies for the most part have been abolished and soil pans substituted 2–I am aware that that is the case, and I believe it acts well too. 305. If 500,000 people use an apparatus of that kind, I suppose it may be fairly assumed that 5,000 might be taught to use it 2–I think so. 306. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you examined the water that is at present supplied to the town 2–I have not analysed it chemically. 307. Have you traced any illness to the use of that water –I have not positively traced it, but I have often thought illness was caused by the use of the Water. - 308. Do you think that the water which is supplied to the town is in a proper condition for the health of the inhabitants?—It has been better recently, since they adopted the system of chemically filtering it. I thought a good many cases of diarrhoea and low fever were probably caused by the use of the water, but it is now very much better. 309. Do you think that if the river were restored to the condition in which it was in 1830 or thereabouts, it would be a proper source for the supply of the town 2–I am not aware what the state of it was in 1830. 310. We have it in evidence that it was then in a comparatively pure state, and that fish were abundant 2 —I should think that a river where fish would live could not be very bad water for the domestic use of a town. - 311. (Professor Way.) Apart from your knowledge of the source from which the water is at present sup- plied, which you know to be below the outfall of the sewers and so on, have you any reason to believe from any knowledge of the health of the people, that the character of the water supply has a prejudicial effect upon their health 2–Not now ; I think that there has been a very marked improvement. 312. You, as a matter of course, object to be sup- plied with water which has been once so fouled 2– Decidedly so. 313. But leaving that knowledge and information apart, have you any reason to believe from the appear- ance of the water, and from the use of the water since the carbide has been employed, that it is a water which may not be safely used ?–I think that the water is very materially improved. From my own knowledge I would not say that it is detrimental now. 314. Is it a water which you would have thought was decent water for use 2–Yes, I think that it is. 315. Have you any other reason than your know- ledge of the source, for objecting to the water –I have not. I drink it myself, and I have the means of getting other water with a little trouble to my ser- vants. - The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM TEALL (Wakefield) examined. 316. (Chairman.) Are you connected with any of the local manufactures near Wakefield 2–I am con- nected with the iron trade here, and also with the manufacture of candle material and oil from the waste greasy water of woollen and other fabrics. 317. How long have you known this district of Yorkshire –All my life. 318. Do you remember the condition of the rivers in your early days?—I remember this river being full of fish. I have caught trout at the foot of Wakefield dam, when I was a lad. 319. What does the pollution now consist of above Wakefield, so far as your knowledge extends?— I should say that it arises from the refuse waters of the dye works, and woollen and other manufactories. 320. Do any of the manufactories tip their ashes into the stream 2–To some small extent, but I have not much knowledge of that. 321. When did the pollution begin to take place, so as to be visible to the extent that it now is 2– Perhaps 20 years ago. 322. Was it with the extension of the woollen manu- facture?—Yes. 323. What special part of the woollen manufacture causes most pollution, the washing of the wool or the dressing of it, or the dying of it, or what?–Both washing the wool and dyeing, and also the fulling process. 324. I assume that the whole of the refuse matter used to go into the river some years ago?—The whole of it, I believe so. - 325. At what date was this method commenced of extracting the refuse soap and oil from the water after wool washing 2–I do not know ; but it was carried on upon a small scale some years before I had anything to do with it, or knew anything about it. I have been connected with it some 14 years. 326. Then some persons may have carried it on for 20 years?—They have, upon a very small scale. 327. Does that process tend to the reduction of the impurity poured into the river ?–Considerably. 328. Have you had experience in any other form of purification of the water, or recovering waste matter 2 —None, except in the recovering of indigo. 329. (Professor Way.) You are engaged in sepa- rating the oily parts of the waste water 2–Yes. 330. Is that oil produced from the washing of the wool 2–After the wool has been washed we collect the suds and water direct into tanks which we employ for the purpose. The moment a tank is filled we operate upon the contents with chemicals, which separate the thick or dirty stuff from the water. The great bulk is a WAKE- FIELD. Mr. W. S. Wade. 16 Oct. 1866, M.r. W. Teall. B 2 12 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WAKE- FIELI). * Mr. W. Teat!". 16 Oct. 1866. --- - sediment which falls to the bottom ; some portion flows on the surface. We run the water off between the top and the bottom, until the greasy matter, which floats on the top part, drops upon the lower part, the water which we turn away into the stream is then compara- tively clear. 331. In that residue at the top and at the bottom you obtain a quantity of grease?—Yes, we put it into filters; we again take a further quantity of water from it, which is remarkably clear. 332. How do you get that ?—By putting the stuff into loose filters, made of cocoa-nut fibre cloth, lined with a coarse kind of canvas. 333. The liquid drains —Yes. The whole stuff is a sort of mud in appearance, the water flows and dries out ; we then put it into a press with canvas bags, and operate upon it with pressure and steam. The grease runs out into a receiver along with some por- tions of dirt; this grease we afterwards clarify, and we bring it from all the manufactories in that state to Wakefield. 334. The process is done in the manufactory itself? —In some places it is done by separate men, where the manufactory is sufficient for that purpose; in other places we group several manufactories together by a pipe, through which the refuse water runs. 335. Do you work under a patent —Yes. 336. What are those chemicals —Sulphuric or muriatic acid. I took out a patent some few years ago, previously to which the process of recovering the grease was rather a lengthy one, but I found out some years ago that if you heated the suds to about 170 or 180 degrees Fahrenheit, whilst you added your acid, the separation took place a great deal more quickly, and the consequence is now that in 24 hours the grease may be in the soap chest, and finished in the cask. - 337. Do you continue the heat afterwards —No. 338. Is that an expensive operation ?—It is rather expensive. 339. In the course of this operation is there any considerable smell of any kind —No. There is a little smell while the acid is being added, but none in the process. The suds have had no time to effervesce or smell, they are so fresh. 340. When you speak of this as wool-washing, is the bulk of the liquid very large; does it require large tanks –Pretty large; we merely have an additional number of tanks. 341. But they are not of such a size as would embarrass the manufacturer —No, we have merely had them made of 3-inch deal about 12 feet by 6 feet, and 4 feet deep, holding about 10 tons. 342. In a large wool-washing place will there be many of these tanks?—Yes; in some cases we build them with stone in the ground, cover them over, and make the surface available for other purposes. - 343. The residue having been brought home to your works, you convert this greasy matter into various kinds of oil –Into stearine for candles and into cloth oil. 344. Is there anything besides the grease which is separated by this action ?–Yes, the residuum which is left in the bags after heat and pressure, after we have got all the greasy matter which we can out of it. This is sold by us to manure makers, who use it along with other materials; it is said to be valuable for In a ballI'e. 345. Does it form an important item in the pecu- niary profits 2–Yes. 346. Does the manufacturer himself get any advan- tage by so treating his water —A very great one in some instances. 347. Do you pay a royalty –We pay in a variety of ways; one mode, and perhaps the most satisfactory one for all parties is this, namely, for us to pay a certain price per ton upon the finished grease. We take the manufacturer's suds, he supplies us with steam, or sometimes we put up our own boilers, as the case may be. It is simply a question of price between us. We take all his soapy waters, and he receives so much per ton upon the finished grease. 348. It is not finished till you get it home, is it 2– It is finished in a certain sense; it is used again by the manufacturers themselves very frequently; it is also used for soap making, and for many other purposes in that state. 349. It is an advantage to the manufacturer to allow you to step in and deal with his soapsuds in this way ?–Undoubtedly. We pay one manufacturer 900l. a year for his soapy waters, and he finds nothing but those waste soapy waters. 350. What proportion does that bear to the value of the soap employed 2–1 could not state that, for this reason, it varies considerably, because in addition to the soap which is used, a great deal of oil is used in combing. 351. The liquid which runs away you say is by no means so objectionable in appearance as the soapy liquids would have been if they had gone direct into the river ?–No ; with proper care it is quite clear that it must be so; if it is not so, there is some care- lessness on the part of the workmen. 352. In how many manufactories are you engaged in connexion with this process —I think that we have about 120 establishments. 353. Spread over different parts —All over the West Riding manufacturing districts, and also as far south as Leicester. 354. Still there are a great number, F suppose, which are not adopting that process?—No doubt ; particularly the smaller manufactories. 355. Where probably it is not worth your while to collect it —Just so ; of course we take the best places first ; there are hundreds of places not yet touched. 356. Would it be worth the while of the smaller manufacturers to collect their soapsuds in this way ? —In some cases I think not ; in some places I do not think that we could afford to pay them. - 357. Could they do it for themselves?—I think not all. 358. They could only do it through the instru- mentality of a firm like yours?—I think manufac- turers could not do it so as to make it pay except their works were on a large scale. 359. (Chairman.) Do you say that there are hundreds of places in Yorkshire which are not treat- ing their soapsuds at all?–I should think so, taking the outlying places. 360. Any large ones?—Not many large ones. 361. (Professor Way.) If the manufacturers could not obtain a profit by recovering the grease from their waters, at what cost could they do it?–In a great many instances it could be done without any cost to them if they would give their suds away. In several of the smaller places if they would make us a present of the soapy water we could get a profit out of it. 362. If they were compelled to keep the soapy waters out of the river, you, or persons in an analogous position to yourself, would step in and relieve them * —I think so, in a great number of cases, but not in all. 363. Probably the proportion of those cases where it would not be worth your while to interfere would be very small —Very small. 364. And even there, if you were paid for taking away the soap instead of paying for it, or not paying anything it would not cost very much –Not much. 365. Consequently, in your opinion, it would not be a great hardship to compel all manufacturers to do what some now do willingly —I think that it might be done. 366. (Chairman.) You would not think it a great hardship if all persons who even treat their soap- suds were compelled to bring that treatment up to some ascertainable standard of purity —I do not think that it would be. 367. And also if all persons who now turn soap refuse into any stream were compelled to have their soapsuds treated (as experience shows they can be RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 13 treated), so as to prevent the impurity, whether it would or would not pay them —Yes. 368. (Professor Way.) I suppose that we should not be right if we considered these liquids to be merely soapy water —No. 369. They are very much more foul and impure than mere soap dissolved in water –Yes, no doubt of it. 370. I am not speaking of that which runs into the river after your process, but of the water which you take —Yes, undoubtedly it contains a good deal of other matters. - 371. Animal matters from the wool?—Yes. I may also state that by a new patent—a French patent, which we have lately purchased which I believe will become of very general use in England, as it is now in France—a very large quantity of pearlash may be obtained from the wool before it is touched by the scouring process, by merely putting it into cold water. In fact, we have it now in operation in three or four places at Bradford; but I may say that in England it is a far more difficult matter to introduce a new thing than abroad. 372. (Chairman.) For what reason f – I cannot state that. In France it was very rapidly introduced. We have operated several times, and found that the un- washed wool, that is to say, wool which has not been washed in the fleece, produces a very large quantity of potash of a very valuable kind. 373. (Professor Way.) And therefore the separa- tion of it is very profitable —Yes; and it is so simple that it is soluble in cold water, and instantaneously. By the wool being merely put into a tub filled with cold water, and allowed to remain for a minute or two, the water drawn off at the bottom contains all that can be got from the wool. - 374. That, I suppose, would not have any effect in the subsequent treatment of the wool?—They say that it improves the wool, and that the wool scours better. 375. (Chairman.) Is there any Government in- spection in this respect that you are aware of 3–Not that I am aware of. 376. Do you think that if a Government inspec- tion were established to compel the treatment of these fluids and the treatment of wools so as to preserve these materials which are proved to be valuable, it would be an improvement 2–I do not think that it is done generally in France, except in the larger works. I know that in France last year 1200 tons of potash were recovered from unwashed wool, and was sold at from 35l. to 40l. per ton. That potash was re- covered by merely immersing the wool in cold water. It first of all produces an article like porter in appear- ance, then that is evaporated until it is a sort of thin- nish pitch, that is merely calcined and washed, and the potash is completed. 377. (Professor Way.) If the wool has not been so treated this potash would be in the soapsuds? — It perhaps would be in the refuse in the bags after pressure ; it would go with the water. 378. You say that the liquid which runs away after the process of separating the grease is very much less objectionable 2–Undoubtedly. 379. You say that it is a productive process, and that there is no difficulty in carrying it out in small establishments as well as in large ones, except so far as regards the question of profit?—Just so. 380. You have mentioned indigo from the dyeworks —Where indigo is used for pilot cloths, police cloth- ing, and that sort of cloth, we recover a good deal of indigo from this very residuum or manure, after we have extracted the grease. 381. And that makes the process still more advan- tageous 2–Of course. 382, That indigo therefore is prevented from going into the stream 2–Yes. 383. In the case of indigo, is the water which flows away from the process equally clear as when indigo is not present –It is quite clear. l 384. It is not coloured from indigo 2–Not in the Qast. 385. The process prevents any indigo from going into the stream 2–Yes. 386. Consequently, if we see a stream coloured blue with indigo, we may say that that indigo has come in with the soapsuds, and might have been kept out 2– I do not know that we could recover any indigo from a spent vat ; at least we have never tried to do so. 387. But you can from the refuse water from the washing of indigo dyed goods?—Although a portion of the indigo will come away with the grease, a very large proportion remains with the cloths. Of course there is a further process after this brown grease is got; the process is distillation and pressure, but that is a very well known process. 388. Is this trade open to the public; have any of your patents expired?—We have no patent as connected with our operations, except the one for adding steam during the process of separating the grease from the Soapy waters. 389. (Chairman.) Have you any idea what weight or what volume of material per week or per annum in round numbers is now obtained by this treatment of soapsuds?—I do not know. 390. How many tons per annum do you get your- selves?—We obtain about 50 tons per week. 391. Are 50 more tons got by all the trade 2–I should think not more. 392. Then you think that about 100 tons per week would be got now?—I should think so. 393. (Professor Way.) That is not including the manure ?–No ; that is the clear fatty matter ready for distillation. 394. (Chairman.) About what is it worth a ton 2 —About 18/. We have a better sort, a more oily sort, it may average about 20/, a ton; from 18l. to 20/. 395. Do you think that if the whole of the wool washing were treated in the same way another 100 tons might be added to it?—I should think more. 396. Then there would be upwards of 200 tons a week 2–I should think so. 397. And its value would be about 20/, a ton 2– I will say about 18l. 398. Do you think that we might go as far as 250 tons a week?—It is partly guess work with me. I should say 200 tons at all events. 399. That is 4,000l. a week which is recoverable 2 -—Yes. 400. And you are conferring that much wealth upon the community, and saving the pollution of the river as well?–Yes. 401. (Professor Way.) That is the value, but that does not represent the profit?—That is both prime cost and profit; that is what the result is worth as a manufactured article. I should say that the manu- facturer would receive something like one-third of that amount himself. We pay 5l. a ton upon the grease as it comes away, so that the profit is something less than one-third of what I have put as the value. 402. (Mr. Harrison.) And the expense to the manufacturer to that point is not large?—He has no expense except finding premises and steam in some cases, but that is very trifling. 403. (Chairman.) Knowing the woollen manufac- ture so well as you do, is there any other process, either paying or otherwise, in the course of the manu- facture in which you think that the manufacturers might lessen the amount of impurity which they turn away from their works?—I do not know. 404. Are soapsuds injurious otherwise than by dis- colouring 2–I should think so. 405. They very soon putrify —Yes. 406. (Professor Way.) They help other things ic putrify?—No doubt. 407. (Chairman.) Therefore, soapsuds are a most noxious thing to turn off the premises?—No doubt. 408. Indigo is a mere discoloration to the eye?—I think so, but I am not an authority upon the subject. 409. (Mr. Harrison.) What part of the liquid refuse is turned into these tanks of yours?–In the fulling process, practically we do not take all the water, because when the water arrives at a certain WAKE- FIELD. Mr. W. Teall. 16 Oct. 1866. B 3 14 RFWERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WAKE- FIELD. - Mr. W. Teall. 16 Oct. 1866. thinness, we turn it of and do not allow it to run into our tanks. Paying what we do pay for our soapy water, we should have too much to operate upon with our acids and so on, if we allowed it to run in after it arrived at a certain thinness. - 410. (Professor Way.) You are collectors of soap, and not purifiers of the river ?–Just so. 411. (Chairman.) Do you think that there would be any injustice in asking the manufacturers to appro- priate some of the profit to the further purification of that water, which is not quite rich enough for you to pay for it —I should think not. I remember the time when they got nothing for those waters; for years we paid a manufacturer about 3,000l. for his soapy waters, and previously to that he did not receive a shilling ; he however now manufactures his own grease. 412. (Professor Way.) Supposing that it was pro- posed to apply to the land the waste water of a wool dying establishment, would you think it desirable in the first instance to take the grease out of it before you so used it?—I should think so. I do not know that the land could derive any benefit from the grease. 413. Therefore, whatever steps might be taken by the manufacturers to purify the water before going into the stream, the process of separating the grease should be the first step 2–Yes. 414. (Mr. Harrison.) In the West Riding, gene- rally, machines are used for cleansing the wool in the first instance 2–Yes. 415. So that you get all the liquor in that process? —Yes. - 416. In indigo dyeing, very little is turned away from the dyers; they do not turn out their vats very frequently –It appears very blue. A very small proportion of indigo will discolour a very large quantity of water. 417. Do you know whether it would pay to re- cover the indigo from the dyeing process?–Do you mean from the spent vats? 418. Yes.—I should think not. We tried some of Mr. Holdsworth's here, which we were very much disappointed in. We thought that from the large quan- tity of indigo wash which they ran away, we should reap a good deal, but we recovered nothing worth our notice. 419. (Professor Way.) What is the quantity of indigo which you get –It is very small, compara- tively; perhaps 120 or 130 lbs. per week. 420. Is not indigo worth a good deal of money P- Yes; it varies a good deal. 421. Is it not worth 6s, or 7s, a pound?—Yes. 422. Do you get so much as that for the recovered indigo 2–Yes, in some cases quite that. 423. Is its quality as good as that of indigo which is bought in the market —The recovered indigo, I think, is worth more than the original indigo. 424. Because it is purer indigo 2–Yes. 425. Having gone through chemical processes, which original indigo ought to go through 2–Yes. 426. Have you seen or heard of a press called Needham’s press, used for the separation of solid matters from liquid –I have not seen it. + 427. It is a press for separating liquids from solids by pumping the mixture into chambers, and then placing it under pressure. Do you think that any- thing of that kind would be injurious as regards indigo 2–I think not. I do not know how by Need- ham's process you would operate upon the very hot material. The process is a sort of filtration, and the whole body would go through. 428. You mean when the grease was liquid –Yes; I am speaking of the indigo, being in a liquid state, containing a large quantity of water that is very hot; it is boiled. I do not know how, by any process except by the settling process, you could get the water from it. 429. Is the liquid which you send away from the grease as pure as it might be if it were properly filtered 2–I think so. In all cases of water from the cocoa-nut fibre filters it is as clear as crystal. It is far clearer than our Wakefield water. - 430 (Mr. Harrison.) Is it acid –It ought not to be º ; if so, it is from an excess of acid having been UISCOl. 431. (Professor Way.) Is there any process by which it may be made still purer, so that you should discharge nothing into the river in a solid state?—I do not think that anything is discharged into the river in a solid state. The question is, whether the excess of acid can be prevented. We are as careful as we can be not to use an excess of acid, because the very article of the cloths in which we fold the mixture up, in order to put it into the presses, is a very important article, and costs us about 2,000!, a ear”. 432. I suppose that there is a large quantity of lime in a state of lime salt discharged into this river? —Yes. 433. May that be a cause that the Wakefield water is harder than it used to be?—I cannot say. 434. Have you ever heard it suggested that that was the case ?–No; but I know that since I have been in business as an iron founder, our brass buckets and pumps and other parts of the engine wear far more quickly than they did 30 years ago. 435. You, I suppose, are not the only people who use acids —No; the dyers use an enormous quantity. 436. (Mr. Harrison.) At present you recover the indigo merely from the refuse from the first of the fulling process 2–That is all. - 437. Do you see your way to removing the re- mainder of the indigo that is left after the dying process, and after the cleaning process, so as to pre- vent the fouling of the river ?–I do not. It is impossible to dye a piece of cloth without using a surplusage of indigo, that surplus indigo must wash out, and go away with the stream. 438. And you think that if means were taken at every dye works of abstracting the indigo to the extent to which you do, there would still be a sufficient quantity passing into the river to discolour it almost as much as is now the case ?—I should think that some might be recovered, but I do not know any means of recovering it to make it pay. 439. With regard to the 9001, which you said you pay to one manufacturer alone for the soap suds, is that for the soapsuds from the wool cleaning and also from the fulling 2–He does not full; it is simply from his wool washing, and his back washing, and his yarns. 440. Do you know at all what quantity of wool he uses in a year 2–I do not, but it is a considerable quantity. 441. (Chairman.) Is it wool or alpaca —Both wools and alpaca. 442. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you think that the weight of potash which is obtained from the wool of which you have spoken is sufficient to make it of importance in ordinary sheep washing?—I am not aware ; I do not know how it could be collected ; sheep are gene- rally washed in a running stream. 443. But it is not unusual to give them a dipping first of all, a good wetting 2–You would have too much water ; the expense of evaporation would be too great to make it pay; your water would be too weak. 444. You say that the potash in a very short time collects from the wool?–Instantaneously. The first water which ran off might only be at a density of 1,000, and at a density of 900 it would not be worth working; the expense of evaporation, and cooling, and so on, would be too much, but if you continually use the same water it perhaps will come off at 1,100, or 1,130, or 1,140, and when it comes up to 1,100 we consider it sufficient. - 445. You may in that way get it up to a sufficient density ?–Yes. 446. (Professor Way.) In washing the wool, after you have put fresh quantities of wool over and over again into the same liquid, do you increase the RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 15 strength as they do in the alkali works?–That is the proper way, by having a series of tanks. That plan is, no doubt, practicable, but the question is whether it would pay. - 447. Does alpaca wool give potash in the same way ?–Not much; the unwashed Australian wools seem to yield the most potash. We have not had an opportunity of trying it upon the skins, which we are about to do in the neighbourhood of Leicester in the course of another month or two. The wool upon the skin now is very short, and scarcely worth meddling with, but in the course of another month or two we shall make an experiment upon the skin; we shall put all the skins in a tank, and operate exactly as we do upon the wool, and see what will be the result; if we get much dirt with it we shall have a difficulty, because dirt will give density. 448. It is obvious from the information which you have given us that the separation of grease from the soapsuds is lucrative. impurity of the river in your opinion is obviated by that process, is it anything appreciable —I think so, 449. Is it a third, or a tenth, or a twentieth 2–1 scarcely know how to apportion it. - 450. The river still remains very dirty, is that What proportion of the total from the want of the process being carried out 2—The river would still be very dirty after doing all that I º spoken of, but the process would do a great deal. 451. (Chairman.) The river, I suppose, would be impure from sewage –Yes. 452. And from refuse discharge of every sort 2– No doubt of it. 453. (Professor Way.) You do not deal with any- thing like the whole of the manufacturing refuse from wool works for instance —No, but we deal with a large portion of the whole bulk; we recover more than all the rest put together. 454. After your process had been carried out with the utmost perfection, woollen works would still discharge quantities of refuse –No doubt. 455. (Mr. Harrison.) Are there any of the materials used in dyeing, besides indigo, which are of sufficient value to make them worth recovering 2–I do not know. I should think that there is nothing so valu- able as indigo. 456. From the other processes than indigo, the vats are much more frequently emptied into the river than they are from indigo?–No doubt. - The witness withdrew. Mr. JAMEs Fowler (Wakefield) examined. 457. (Chairman.) You are a surgeon –Yes. I am one of the surgeons to the hospital and dispensary; I am not the parish surgeon. 458. To what points in this inquiry do you wish to speak —I should wish to speak specially with refer- ence to the condition of the river and the impurities which it contains, microscopical and otherwise. I cannot speak from memory respecting the micros- copical appearances, but I have some papers upon the subject. (The same was handed in and is printed at the end of the evidence of the witness.) 459. How long have you been in practice in Wake- field 2–I have been in Wakefield about four years, I have been in practice about two years. I was house surgeon to the hospital for nearly two years. 460. Have you seen much fever in Wakefield and the district 2–I have. - 461. What kind of fever ?–Typhoid chiefly. The largest amount of typhoid which I ever saw in Wake- field was during three or four months in which the water was supplied to the town without any process of purification at all, with no filtration. 462. When was that 2–It was about two and a half years ago, in 1864. 463. In what part of the town did those cases of typhoid fever occur –Chiefly in Westgate. 464. Do you think that the fever and the water had any connexion ?—I imagine that the water acted from the amount of sewage which it contained. The water was at that time loaded with animal matter, as one could see from microscopical as well as chemical ex- periments. 465. What did you find?—I found portions of muscular fibre, starch, vegetable epithelium and other constituents of faeces. 466. Did yot get any refuse from the soapworks —None which I could recognize. The things which I could clearly detect I have mentioned, but there were a great many other things which I could not clearly speak to. 467. Have you refuse from coal mines —Yes. 468. What character would that give to the water —I should expect some sulphuretted hydrogen, though I don’t suppose that coal mines give any large portion of impurity. 469. You have soapworks?–Yes, a large portion of lime enters the water from them. 470. You have the sewage from the West Riding prison —Yes. 471. That would be sewage in a putrid state?–Yes. I have mentioned in my report the drain from the prison, but the main drain of the prison is under- ground. - 472. What do the Yorkshire Fibre Company manu- facture ?—A sort of fibre matting, from Chinese grass, a quantity of alkali is used, and it makes the water very impure. 473. (Professor Way.) Is that liquid very dark 2– Yes. 474. Is it very like coffee?—Yes, it is a sort of tan- coloured liquid. - 475. You have been speaking now of the river water? —Yes. - 476. And the water supplied to the town before the process of filtration ?–Yes; these microscopical and chemical results came from the water as it was sup- plied to the inhabitants two years ago; the water was suppleid to the inhabitants in exactly the same condi- tion as it was pumped out of the river, except that there had been a partial subsidence. 477. But there was no filtration P.-None what- eVOI’. 478. Have you examined the water lately 2–Yes, and the water is, I believe, as good as it is possible to obtain it from the river. It is now very fair. 479. Have you examined it microscopically lately —Yes, and I have not been able to detect anything injurious in it. - 480. Would mere mechanical filtration have sepa- rated all the objectionable matters ?–No, I think not, but I have not recognized any microscopical impu- rities lately. - 481. I suppose that the mere mechanical filtration of water would remove all the animalculae which were of any considerable size?—Yes. 482. But of course they would be liable to be re- produced from the germs of soluble organic impurity which would pass through the filter 2–Yes. 483. In the case of this water have you kept the water for any time so as to allow of that development? —No. 484. But at the time when you examined this water it was free from that objection ?–Yes, it was free from animalcules and other microscopical impurity. 485. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you made any chemical examination?—Not particularly. 486. (Professor Way.) You find in the water what you would find in most river waters?—Yes, except that there are larger quantities of some things, there is a much larger quantity of saline matter than you find in general waters; the water is considerably harder than most waters. - 487. In this district are you accustomed to soft WAICE- FIELD. - Mr. W. Teall. 16 Oct. 1866. --- Mr. J. Fowler. B 4 I6 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAKE- TIELD. Mr. J. Fowler. 16 Oct. 1866. --- water ?–No, it varies. The lake water is moderately soft, and the water from the springs is a great deal harder, and also the water from the wells; but the filtered water from the river is very much harder than any other water in the neighbourhood. 488. Is it harder than the water from the wells – Yes. 489. You know that Dr. Clarke's scale of hardness is generally used?—Yes. 490. And that London water is 13 or 14 degrees of hardness by that scale?–Yes. 491. Chalk waters being 19?–Yes. 492. Do you know the hardness of their water, as supplied ?–I do not know it by Dr. Clarke's scale. I could not at that time lay my hand on Dr. Clarke's paper, and so instead of his test I used an alcoholic solution and pure white soap of a definite specific gravity. I had an ounce of water, and counted the number of drops required to be added to that water. In that way I made the hardness of the Notton water about 7, and the hardness of the Newmiller Dam water about 9, and of most of the wells in the neighbourhood 12 or 14, while the river water was 16; that is entirely an arbitrary scale. 493. Has this water the reputation of being a hard water 2–Yes, I am sure that it has. 494. Is it not possible that a Londoner might call this water a soft water whilst you call it a hard one –Yes. 495. What is your opinion generally of the water now supplied to the town 2–That it is a very fair Water. 496. You are not aware of any cases of sickness which could be attributed to it 2–No. 497. Would it be equally wholesome if it were not filtered 2–No, I certainly think that filtration makes a great difference. 498. Would filtration through sand have produced an equal result 2–1 should think not. 499. You therefore think that the material used is of value 2–I think that it is. I cannot speak with absolute certainty. I merely give a conjecture, because I have not examined it chemically. 500. Do you consider the water unobjectionable, so far as you know, in point of health —I do. 501. Where did you get the sample of water which you examined 2–1 drew it from a tap in the dispensary. 502. I am speaking of two years ago —Yes, that was the occasion. - - 503. Is the tap on a system of constant supply, or is the water supplied through cisterns?—It is on constant supply at present. 504. Was it at that time P-There is a cistern at the dispensary. 505. Is the cistern often cleaned out 2–Yes. I cannot say exactly how often, but the water which I examined two years ago did not go into the tank at all, but came by a direct pipe from the mains of the waterworks. It is a notorious fact that the water was so muddy that it was not fit even for ordinary washing, and that it was not fit for use in any way. 506. Was that at the time when the water was simply pumped up into the town 2–Yes, I presume that it was never intended that that water should be drunk. 507. What other supply was there –There were a few wells. Those who wanted water paid for it. I know many families who used to buy water at that time; private filters were used. 508. The upshot of your view is that the water has been very bad, and now is not bad —It is very much improved. I can only give my opinion of its condition as a medical man, and not as a chemist. 509. In principle you would not advocate the use of water which had been so fouled as this water has been 2–Certainly not. 510. No matter what process had been adopted 2– No matter what process had been adopted with it. 511. You would rather have water which had never been foul ?—Certainly. I can conceive it possible and probable that infection would be conveyed by this water ; that if any infectious discharges entered the water, infectious diseases, such as cholera, might be propagated by it. 512. It has been said that the virus of cholera can be introduced by water from the excrements of cholera patients –Precisely. 513. Supposing that you had cholera very rife in this town, is there any reason why the water being drunk, part of which had been the water of cholera patients, should produce cholera again –I should think that it would, even after filtration, though I cannot say so absolutely. 514. You would not like to trust it 2–Not on any account. 515. (Mr. Harrison.) Two years ago you say you found in the water matter not in solution ?–Partly also in solution; the water I believe was loaded with organic matter in solution. 516. You found a mechanical suspension in the water which you could examine carefully with the microscope, such as you do not find in the water now 2–Precisely. 517. And the removal of this matter you attribute to the process of filtration which has been carried on 2 —Precisely. 518. But you did not chemically examine the water then, nor have you done so now —The water con- tained a large quantity of organic matter in a state of solution at that time, but it does not contain anything like the same quantity now, in fact I think that it contains hardly any animal organic matter in solution now, but I cannot speak upon that point with cer- tainty. 519. (Professor Way.) Have you observed the water before and after filtration ; I mean the water going into the filtering tanks and going out of the filtering tanks —Yes. Y 520. Is there much difference between the two 2– e3. 521. Is there less organic matter after filtration ?— The only means of discovering organic matter which I have adopted is by a solution of per-manganate of potash. If I take two tumblers, one with distilled water and another with another kind of water, I am able to compare the two. If one turns brown imme- diately, I say that it contains a great quantity of organic matter. 522. Might not this be produced by sulphuretted hydrogen which this water contains largely, and which has the same power of discolouration as per-manganate? —Precisely ; but the particular specimen of water which I examined did not contain sulphuretted hy- drogen. 523. Admitting that the water now supplied is vastly better than it was before, or than it would be without filtration, do you consider that the improve- ment is due to the particular filtering medium, or that the process is a mere mechanical contrivance 2–I really cannot speak to that. 524. Have you any reason to think that the health of the population of Wakefield is directly affected by the condition of the Calder P--I do not think that at the present moment it is directly affected by the Water. 525. I am not speaking of its being affected by the water which is drunk, but of the fact of the water, at certain seasons of the year producing effluvia 2– That is an extremely difficult question to answer. I do not think that there is any doubt of the public health being affected indirectly. 20 years ago there was no cod liver oil or quinine used ; blistering, bleed- ing, and purging were the practice at the dispensary, and patients throve upon it ; but so far from that they would die under it now, and 2,700 patients require not less than 23 gallons of cod liver oil and 64 ounces of quinine, to say nothing of stimulants and extra diet. 526. In the last 10, 15, or 20 years, as far as you can learn, has the gradual increase in the quantity of quinine employed been in any sort of relation to the want of purity of the river ?–I think that the want of purity of the river is one of many elements which cause quinine and cod liver oil to be used. The RIVERS COMMISSION:–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 17 want of cleanliness in the atmosphere and in the river, I take it, is the chief reason why so much cod liver oil and quinine are used. 527. There is a general deterioration of the public health —Yes, consequent upon the want of proper ventilation and of proper drinking water. - 528. Quinine being a specific in cases of low fever ? —Yes, and in many other cases besides fever. The amount of quinine which is used is, I believe, very large. 529. Does it increase year by year?—Yes, in pro- portion to our number of patients, which increases also. 530. (Chairman.) Then you are somewhat in this condition, that formerly bad doctors could not kill, and now good doctors cannot cure ?—I am afraid that it is so in a great many instances. I think that when there was a good wholesome river, and a pure atmosphere, people had no difficulty in keeping alive, but now they have a very great difficulty. 531. I suppose that if we were all teetotalers we should lay the mortality all upon the great additional quantity of beer and spirits which are now drunk — I do not blame the river exclusively, but I cannot resist the conviction that it exercises a very im- portant influence, with other causes; that it is one of many causes which are at work in deteriorating the health of the population. 532. Have you examined the state of the ash- middens of Wakefield in the crowded part of the town where fever exists —Yes, but not recently. 533. Have they made themselves at any time evident to you ?—Yes, I have frequently complained of them. 534. Is it your opinion that the fermentation of an ashpit, within a few feet of a patient, may have a much more injurious effect than a river, which is many yards distant –I should think that it would have. 535. That the ashpit would be the worst 2–Yes, certainly. 536. Then do you not think that the habit of retaining filth near to dwellings might be blamed as well as the river ?—Very likely, so far as regards producing a great nuisance in Wakefield. 537. We have it in evidence that 9,000 two-horse loads of ashes and privy refuse are removed from Wakefield in the course of the year, which have been formed here. Do you not think that the piling up of that quantity of night-soil (which gives off gases known to be deadly in their effects) may produce a contamina- tion of the atmosphere very much worse than any which the river can exercise 2–I think so ; it makes it so much worse for the ashpits, but not better for the river. 538. Certainly not, but when we are looking for causes for deterioration we may as well look to all the causes 2–Certainly. 539. Do you think that the smoke, which is now very much greater that it was 30 or 40 years ago, may have a very prejudicial effect upon the inhabi- tants 2–I think that it has. 540. (Professor Way.) Which of the two alterna- tives would you choose, that the solid and liquid matter voided by men and women should remain in the cesspits in the neighbourhood of the houses, or should be discharged into the river ? — I should choose that it should be discharged into the river. 541. It would be better to put up with a foul river receiving the sewage of a town, than that that town should not be sewered at all 2–I think so ; but I would rather not give an opinion as to which is the better of two things, both of which I look upon as so injurious. 542. (Chairman.) Have you ever yourself made so close an inspection of districts having a foul river running through them, compared with districts free from river influence but having cesspools only, as to draw a conclusion as to which was the greatest evil? —I never have. 543. Then would you be surprised to hear, that when such an examination has been made, the river has been found a very innocent offender as compared with the cesspools?—I should expect that the river would be a less offender than the cesspools. The witness withdrew. REPORT by James Fowler, Esq., Surgeon, on the conditions of the Calder and its tributaries in the Wakefield district. It would be difficult to find a more striking instance than that afforded by this part of the Calder, of the extent to which our Rivers have been defiled by sewage and refuse from manufactories. Its green banks and interesting scenery made it formerly a pleasing resort for the artizan and operative in hours of leisure, while its clear and spark- ling waters invited the healthful recreations of boating, bathing, and fishing. Even so lately as within the last twenty years, anyone with a fly might in an afternoon catch a basketful of chub, each weighing at least two or three pounds; and during freshes, with a cast net, very frequently ninety or a hundred, sometimes even a hundred and fifty pounds of roach, chub, gudgeon, &c. were caught in an evening. On one occasion, where the water was let off from a quite short cutting belonging to the Calder and Hebble Navigation Company, at least four hundred and fifty pounds of eels were taken; in fact, whenever anyone wanted fish, a sackful might readily be obtained. Nothing of this kind has been known, however, since the springing up of manufactories in the vale of the Calder. Nearer home, soon after the Thornes Soap Works were begun, many stones of fish, which had come up the river to spawn, were to be seen floating dead upon the surface. During that year all fish forsook the stream as regular inhabitants. For some time after, however, during freshes, a fish was occasionally to be seen as a curiosity; and so lately as 1858 an experienced fisherman succeeded on one of several persevering trials, in capturing two small chub. At present, the condition of the River is most disgusting. Defiled almost from its source, it reaches us with the accu- mulated refuse of Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Sowerby Bridge, Halifax, Elland, Brighouse, Cooper Bridge, Holm- firth, Huddersfield, Mirfield, Dewsbury, Earlsheaton, and Horbury. At the suspension bridge about a mile and a half above Wakefield it runs slowly and in many places is almost stagnant. It has a bluish-black, dirty slate colour; and a faint, urinous smell which leaves an ex- tremely unpleasant impression for hours after it has been 17159.--2. (Referred to supra, Question 458.) once thoroughly perceived,—considerably worse than that made by the Thames after a stage on a penny boat. The banks and every twig and weed in reach, are coated with soft black slime or mud, studied on the edges of the stream with vivid crimson patches of annelides. Above are overhanging willows; and where the branches of these touch the water, especially in any quiet pool, large sheets of thin bluish or yellowish green scum collects, un- disturbed save by the rising to the surface of bubbles of foetid gas. Between this point and Wakefield, the refuse of extensive soap works and worsted mills enters, causing discolouration for several hundred yards. I have, in fact, traced large quantities of soap-scum beyond Porto-vello, a distance of about half a mile. Nearer the town, quantities of refuse from extensive dye works are continually being discharged, to say nothing of the periodical emptying of spent liquor and vat sediments. On the opposite side are two full streams, one of sewage, the other apparently from some cotton mills; and here it may be stated that the exact degree to which influxes of this kind injure in different cases is extremely difficult to estimate; some manufactures using ammonia, while others adhere to the old fashioned pigs’ dung and urine. The banks on each side are here studded with granaries and malting-houses, from the latter of which are received that most pernicious contamination, the steep-liquor of malt. There is also the refuse of at least one brewhouse and piggery, and of a second soap manufactory drained into the River before it reaches the outlet of Ings beck, at the dam immediately above Wake- field Bridge. In this situation, on any warm day in sum- mer, torrents of gas may be seen rising to the surface, and every now and then large masses of mud, which float for a while, and then, after the gas they contain has escaped and polluted the atmosphere, break up and are redeposited, or they are at once carried down the River, stinking and putre- fying in their course. The Calder and Hebble Navigation Jompany are periodically put to great inconvenience and expense in removing collections of this kind. About two C WAKE- FIELD. Mr. J. Fowler. 16 Oct. 1866. 18 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAIKE- FIELD. Mr. J. Fowler. 16 Oct. 1866. - years ago the mud had accumulated to a depth of 5 feet, and the water having been drained off, at least 2,000 tons were removed, but not one fish or living being of any kind was discovered. On the bridge, a water-mill has been for at least 700 years, and no one interested in the smell of partially oxidized sewage should omit to stand over the spray which ascends from the wheel. Masses of solid faeces may be seen at the grating through which the water is strained. Looking from the bridge westward, except in wet weather, is a large, open, shallow, almost stagnant pond of the most offensive character, with tracts of dark coloured mud constantly exposed. The sewer of the town with the refuse of the malt kilns, breweries, dyeworks, worsted, woollen and cloth mills, fibre mills, soap mills and grease works, enters by the main drain just below; its surface coated with froth of every conceivable colour and degree of filthiness, overhung by willows, in whose branches are entangled and exposed to view the most disgusting objects. The scum may readily be traced down the River for a considerable distance. The last defilement of moment is that from some extensive grease works, in which oil of vitriol is largely employed. The Ing beck, to which I have already alluded, merits a few particular remarks, being the more important tributary the Calder receives in this district. On the day I last examined its outlet, the smell arising was most offensive. The general resemblance of the stream was rather to soup than water, and it had a dirty, greasy, yellowish, indigo-slate colour, where not coated by froth, scum, or floating filth. Its bed is silted to a considerable extent by black, foetid mud, and its outlet partially obstructed by two large ash- heaps. It may be observed, however, that this is perhaps the only place in the neighbourhood at present where refuse ashes have been tilted, and that, though the height of the water in the River alters very considerably according to the state of the weather, the bed is not permanently raised much by solid refuse from manufactories, and that consequently we are not liable to innundations. Walking up the bank of the beck, one may form a fair idea of the kind of con- tamination which it receives. Besides dead dogs, tin kettles, old pans, boots, hats, &c., we find house-sinks, and surface drains, public-house refuse and factors’ privies flowing in unscrupulously. Myriads of annelides in the mud on the banks subsist on the impurities; that in the neighbourhood of a warm sewer being, in fact, for some distance entirely concealed by sheets of moving pink. A rail- way waggon maker's establishment was a little while ago an artificial manure factory, and contributed greatly to the general pollution. At the bottom of Thornhill Street are two strong foul streams, one of sewage, the other, on the day I visited it discharging deep indigo coloured stuff. Immediately above this the beck, though receiving muddy refuse from some cement works, was purple coloured, and where the branches of overhanging shrubs dipped beneath its surface, a poly- chrome froth and scum collected. A few hundred yards higher, having passed the place of entrance of the purple dye, the stream regained nearly its original indigo appear- ance. Near the Lawe Hill bridge was a dirty fall of hot mauve refuse, with several yards of rainbow-coloured scum. Where the water could be seen in one light it would have a bluish tint, in another a dirty yellowish ; and the mud was very deep and flocculent. Nearer Chald Lane there was an extremely filthy ditch loaded with the privy and house refuse of a large number of cottages and low lodging-houses and two large streams of thick purple dye refuse. Above the dam in this situation enter the waste of a dye-works and shoddy mill, with the filthy privy and surface drains of Salt Pie Alley. The water here is the colour of the contents of a slop-pail, is almost stag- nant, coated in patches, each of several yards, with scum, and is in other respects very offensive. At Brooksbank a kind of long oblong pond is formed, two sides of which are of thick mud, one exposing the privy refuse and excrements in three drains from the neighbouring cottages and lodging- houses. Balne beck also enters at this point. Going onward it receives the fouled water and other refuse of two large worsted mills, of surface drains, piggeries, and privies; then muddy water, apparently from some brick yards, and hot waste from a large woollen mill. Immediately above, however, the water becomes clearer and less coloured ; healthy green confervae begin to show themselves; long grass floats on the surface; shrubs grow up on the banks; and if a brown scum collects where the branches touch the surface, it has altogether a less disgusting character. Fairly out in the country the water is clean and sweet, and boys bathe in it in summer when deep enough, Balne beck is on the whole as yet tolerably clean, the sides only being lined with mud, patched with red, and the stones at the bottom coated with long trails of green con- fervae. The principal impurities are from a soapworks, a coal-mine, a skin-preparing shed, a brick-field, and the West Riding Prison. The Yorkshire Fibre Company did a short time since drain a large quantity of poisonous matter into the beck, but is at present restrained by an injunction. The Water Company’s Works are situated about two and a half miles from Wakefield Bridge, and consequently receive the water in an extremely unfavourable condition. I have not any recent minute observations by me, but the following is a tabular statement of the result of a lengthened microscopical and chemical examination of the water during the summer of 1864: (Protozoa : Monas, Uvella, Vibrio, Arucha, Acti- mophrys, Spiculae of fresh-water Sponge. The last from the Barnsley Canal. ſ Living & Rotifera: Rotifer, two species. | infusoria ; Vorticella, Coleps, Paramecium. Annelida: two species. Animal | UEntomosţiaca : Cyclops, Daphnia. Muscular fibre, altered and decaying; from sew- agre. Dead & Phºsphates, Nitrates, Sulphur, and Ammonia ; from sewage." Organic matter in solution ; from sewage. ſ Fungi: two microscopic species. Diatoniaceae: Fragillaria, Asterionella, Nitzschia ſº Livin Surivella: from the Barnsley Canal. * Desmidiacae; Staurastrum, Navicula, from the Barnsley Canal. Vegetabl { Conferva : two or three species. egetable starch, from sewage. U Dead Vegetable Epidermis and decaying tissue, from Sewage. - Sporules. º and Sulphates of Lime, Magnesia, Soda, and otash. Diffused Silica and Alumina. On stirring up the mud from the bottom a Winchester quart of gas was readily collected by means of an inverted funnel, and was found, on examination to consist chiefly of carbonic acid, light carburetted hydrogen, sulpuretted hy- drogen, and free nitrogen. It is not easy to estimate accurately the effect of nuisances of this kind on the public health. Two years and a half ago, whilst the waterworks were undergoing improvements, and for some months the supply to the town was merely pumped up from the River into the mains without filtration the actual mortality was not increased. Still, as I had occasion to represent to the Local Board at that time, there was a greater amount of diarrhoea, continued fever, erysipelas, diffuse abscess, and of cutaneous and subcutaneous cellular inflam- mation; while the inflammation generally was peculiarly liable to take on the erysipelatous form and become un- managable, and the convalescence from various diseases to be unwontedly interrupted and prolonged. Possibly this, and even an increased death rate had it occurred, might have been explained in part by other causes; but I cannot resist the conviction that bad water as a beverage, and the taint which it communicates to the atmosphere, bear a most important part both in causing actual disease and in weakening the power of the constitution to bear up against disease, and so shorten life in that way. Greatly improved houses have been built for the artizan class during the last few years; greater attention has been paid to the ventilation of mills and workshops; the agitation for a people's park indicates how wide awake the population is to the benefit of fresh air; wages have increased ; the cha- racter of the food consumed is more closely inspected; the drainage is more efficient ; many open sewers have been closed; bad wells have been stopped; but both the death rate and the amount of disease have increased. An indi- cation of the extent to which constitutional vigour has at the same time diminished, is found in the fact that less than 20 years ago to blister, bleed, and purge was the routine of the physician’s practice at the dispensary, while cod-liver oil and quinine were unknown. This mode of treatment, if it did not cure, certainly did not kill; for the patients did well under it, having strength to bear up against and conquer both disease and treatment. Now, I will venture to say, that 99 per cent. of our patients would sink under the depletory measures of by-gone days, and I may add that during last year, in a practice of only 2,700 it was found necessary to prescribe no less than 23 gallons of cod-liver oil, and 64 ounces of quinine, to say nothing of nourishment and stimulants. (Signed) JAMEs Fow LER, Surgeon, Mineral { Wakefield, 15 Oct, 1866, - RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 19 SAMUEL Holdsworth, Esq., M.D. (Wakefield), examined. 544. (Chairman.) You are an alderman of this borough 2–Yes. 545. You have heard the evidence which Mr. Fow- ler has just given –Yes, I have heard the whole of the evidence. 546. Do you agree generally with the evidence which Mr. Fowler has given, relative to the causes of disease, and the fouling of the river ?—I do. 547. How long have you known this district — Since my birth; I am a native of Wakefield. 548. In your boyhood was the river any purer than it is now 2–There were fish in it at that time. I used to catch fish. 549. What kind of fish 2–Eels and perch and chub, and dace occasionally. 550. Do you think that there are any fish in it now 2–No. 551. You have not had fish for many years?—Not perhaps for 12 years. - 552. Have you been in practice as a physician dur- ing the time that you have resided here?—Yes, since 1847 or 1848, about twenty years now ; I commenced practice here sooner, but I had to leave Wakefield on account of health, so that my practice extends I may say over nearly 30 years. - 553. Have you witnessed any alteration in the types of disease during that period, so peculiar as to impress itself upon you ?—Very much so. 554. What changes have taken place –Formerly it was the universal practice to use the lancet and cupping, and blood letting, but now the lancet rusts, and the leeches die for want of being used, and the cupping glasses are laid aside—from years end to years end—I do not suppose that the cupping glasses are used at the dispensary. 555. Is that from an improvement in the art of surgery or from a deterioration in the patients, so that you do not dare subject them to that treatment?—I presume that it arises from a different type of disease from what we had 30 years ago. 556. Do you suppose that that state of things is general?—I believe that it more or less pervades ex- tensive manufacturing districts, but I do not think that there is, in the rural districts, any very great difference compared with the state of things 30 years a 9 O. 557. Are bleeding and cupping resorted to in the rural districts —Not to the same extent as formerly. Certain influence has been at work for many years, which doubtless has reached the medical profession in the agricultural districts, but I certainly consider that the type of disease in manufacturing towns is very much changed. 558. Is it not a fact known in your profession that diseases run a course like the course of an epidemic, begin and become as it were rampant and expend their fury and partially die out — Yes, we have epidemics of influenza. 559. But is not that the case with special types of disease?—I am aware that gaol fever has disappeared, but we have typhus fever in its various forms which is allied to gaol fever. 560. Have you at all made yourself acquainted with the mode of disposal of sewage in this town, or the retention of refuse in ashpits 2–My knowledge is general upon the subject. 561. Have you heard that at the West Riding prison the refuse of 1,460 persons is passed into tanks till it becomes putrid, and is then at intervals passed down certain drains into the river?—Yes ; the cesspool is flushed at intervals such as once a fortnight. 562. Do you think that that is likely to be injurious * Yes, I think highly so. 563. And the same may be said of the asylum ?— Yes, exactly the same. We unfortunately receive the whole refuse of the West Riding asylum through Wakefield, and up to this summer the refuse discharged from the asylum has passed down for a considerable course in an open drain. This open drain has been supposed to have to do with sickness in that locality. During the past summer it has been covered over by an arrangement between the magistrates and the cor- poration, but so far as the river is concerned the whole refuse from the asylum still finds its way through the town into the river. Why the magistrates do not retain it and manure the land with it I do not know. I have often wondered that they had not a system of tanks by which at any rate they might have collected some of the sedimentary refuse, and have used it, as they have a considerable extent of arable land. 564. I suppose that the pollution of the river has grown up with the increase of population ?—Yes. 565. Do you know the character of the water which is supplied to Wakefield for drinking purposes — Yes. 566. Do you use it —Fortunately I do not, nor my family. 567. Why do you say “fortunately " ?—I always feel that great risks are run by drinking it. 568. Have you known in your practice any evil effects caused by persons drinking it —Not directly. 569. Have you had any complaints in your practice from persons drinking it – Repeatedly, especially during the period detailed by Mr. Fowler two or three years ago; that period during the hot time of the year, and at that time the supply was irregular, though perhaps not to be called intermittent; but I know that for long periods up at St. John's and the high parts of the town, the supply was very inadequate to the Wants. 570. What was the cause of that irregularity f -It was owing to certain alterations going on at the water- works. It was, of course, a period which was at- tended with great danger to the health of the inhabi- tants, but fortunately the water is very much improved now compared with what it was then excepting its hardness. 571. Is it much harder 2–My impression, from the quantity of soap used, is, that it is harder than it formerly was. 572. You use it for washing 2–Yes, for baths, and for waterclosets. 573. Have you any idea what causes the hardness? —No, I do not know to what to attribute it, unless to the iron used in the process of filtration. 574. (Professor Way.) Would the water itself of the river be harder now than it was at the time which you speak of 2–I cannot say. 575. Has the corporation at all discussed the ques- tion of a better supply for the borough 2–Yes, at different times. 576. As we have heard from the deputy town clerk there was, I think, an attempt in 1861 to treat for the works P-Yes. 577. Were you in the council then 2–Yes, I took an active part in the endeavour which was made to purchase the works. 578. You are aware that at present the sewage is sent down net into the river. Have you at all con- sidered the question of its utilization or its treatment before going in 3–Yes, generally. I have been con- tinually alive to the question, but I am free to confess that I have not myself seen my way out of the difficulty. 579. Have you seen any of the places where sewage is utilized, as at Edinburgh 2–No; we had a report from one of our borough surveyors, Mr. Tarbottom, as to the Leicester works, some time ago, but I believe that the works there are all now discontinued. 580. (Mr. Harrison.) What was the date of that report?–It would be about 1858. You asked Mr. Fowler as to whether it would be preferable that the night-soil and ashes from the houses should remain near to the houses, or be sent into the river. My opinion would be rather different to his. I should be more disposed to give a decided answer against its going into the river. 581. (Chairman.) Would you retain it where it is at present?—Yes, I should endeavour to retain it, but to retain it in such a way as not to be injurious to WAKE- FIELD. S. Holdsworth, Esq., M.D. 16 Oct. 1866. C 2 20 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, & WAKE- FIELD. S. Holdsworth, Esq., M.D. 16 Oct. 1866. health, or to reduce that injury to the minimum either by the dry closet system, or by the daily re- moval of all animal and vegetable refuse from houses, by a constant system of cartage. It has been stated that 9,000 two-horse loads of refuse are yearly carted away from Wakefield. I should not mind if it was double that amount, provided that there was not an intermittent system, but that the system was per- petual, and that the refuse was carried away with such rapidity that it could not become in any way a nuisance to the inhabitants. 582. That it should not set up fermentation ?—Yes. 583. (Professor Way.) How could you accomplish that object —By the dry system. 584. Do you mean by the use of earth —Yes. 585. By Mr. Moule's plan —Yes, so far as it could be adopted. That is yet in its infancy. I do not express a decided opinion upon the dry system, but I think that it is desirable to keep as much as possible all animal excrement out of the river. 586. (Chairman.) In using the expression “dry system,” I suppose you are aware that no operation of that kind would secure absolute dryness, that there is urine to contend with ?—Yes, I have not seen my way out of that, but I would deal with the soil excrement. 587. (Mr. Harrison.) And there are the slops of the houses —Yes, they must be as they are now. 588. (Chairman.) You are aware that with any dry system you must have sewers and drains for the street water and refuse water, and that you must provide houses with this extra apparatus for the dry system, as you call it?—Yes, by using ashes, and by a different system of building privies, the dry system could be carried out to a very considerable extent. 589. You are aware that with patients, under many conditions, it would be impossible to keep the places clean as you do now by waterclosets, and that the matter would come in contact with the surface, and become putrified, and that if you once set up putridity every atom of refuse which you put in connexion with it would rapidly take the same form of corruption 2 —Yes; but I am not wedded to the system, because I do not see how it would deal with the fluid part of the refuse. 590. Taking your own house, or any gentleman's house, you may have two or three waterclosets, and so long as the company supply you with water, and the closet is kept in repair, the process goes on evenly without any intervention of a second party, and certainly without any nuisance from the closet, if properly used, and you and your servants know nothing of it. But if you have what is called the dry system, you must charge your pan with the dry earth 2–- Once a week. 591. If the earth gets wet and saturated, how are you to dry it?—If you name houses of a certain class, I do not suppose that the dry system, from what I have seen of it, is likely to be introduced for some time; but in reference to cottage property, I think it quite possible to have a system by which dry earth may be used. To some extent, dry ashes take the place of dry earth. We have a large number of cottages and close yards, and ill-ventilated yards, in Wakefield, many of them being closed at one end. There could be receptacles into which the refuse might be thrown, and regularly taken away. The matter should be entirely under the control of the authorities, and the owners or tenants of the properties should have nothing to do with the refuse ; and in cases of that kind, meaning cottage property, I think that there would be an advantage in carrying away the refuse to the land by boats, or by farmers' carts, over sending it down drains. 592. In Lancashire a company was formed to carry out what is called the Eureka system—the dry sys- tem?—Yes. 593. But they have failed to make it pay ?–Yes. A Local Board of Health would look for a return of profit in the form of improved health to the inhabitants, and therefore would be able to do what private enter. prise could not do. 594. (Mr. Harrison.) As to any comparison be- tween carrying the sewage into the river and having the present cesspits adjoining the cottages, are they not both of them abominations 2–Yes. 595. And neither of them ought to be allowed to exist?-No, or only to exist in such a form that they could not be calculated in any way to be objectionable or injurious to health. 596. To what do you attribute the altered nature of the type of diseases in the district 2–It is very difficult to assign it to any one particular cause. How far the increased amount of smoke, and the condition of the water in past years, and other circumstances which I cannot now enumerate, may have had to do with it I am not prepared to say. At one period we undoubt- edly suffered, and I think that it is probable that persons were really injured by the effluvia arising from some extensive greaseworks, belonging to Mr. Teall, who has given evidence here this morning, but there is not the same amount of ailment from the deteriorated state of the atmosphere from those works as was the case some years ago. 597. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you aware that the sew- age of the town of Croydon, is now most beneficially and profitably applied to the land 2–I have understood so, but I have not seen it. 598. Has your surveyor seen it?—No. 599. Have your corporation taken any steps to make themselves acquainted with that subject —I think not, we have not lately had our attention directed to prevent- ing the sewage going into the river—we have been more occupied by sending more sewage into the river, by draining those districts which hitherto were not drained. 600. You are increasing the evil and are taking no steps to remove it 2–Just so. 601. Do you not think it desirable that your cor- poration should set about doing something of the kind? — Corporations are generally very sluggish bodies to move. 602. Then you think that a little help from Govern- ment would not be amiss –It is a question of the amount of interference. Those bodies are generally very tenacious about being interfered with, but I do not know that it might not be well if some more strin- gent measures were exercised upon representative bodies in towns than at present exist. 603. As a medical man, I apprehend that you object to the system which Wakefield now employs of dis. charging the sewage into the river a very short distance from the point where they are drawing their water supply?—Yes. 604. You cannot approve of it —No. During more than half the year there is always a very obnoxious smell from the water in the river. It is used to turn the water-wheel of a flour mill at the foot of a bridge going out at the south side of the town, and you can get a scent-bottle in perfection by the friction of the water upon this water-wheel. 605. (Chairman.) What is the general health of the miller, and of the men who work about that mill ? —It is to be hoped that they do not get the smell in- side. It is received by the inhabitants who pass there. 606. (Professor Way.) Is it not generally consi- dered that by sewering a town and getting rid of sewage matter, even into the river, you are advancing a step, though perhaps you are creating another evil, but an evil not of parallel magnitude?—I do not ap- prove of the system of waterclosets for all classes of houses. 607. You would like a dry system —Waterclosets for the working class are continually out of order. Children throw all kinds of things into them, they become obstructed, and then they become a far greater evil than a privy or an ashpit. 608. (Chairman.) Do you think that you are justi- fied in using those terms if you have not made yourself acquainted with what has really been done elsewhere 2 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 21 If I should tell you of thousands and tens of thou- sands of waterclosets in existence among the working classes which are not abused (and this is the case), would that be an answer to you ?–We have tried them in Wakefield. I have done all I could to prevent the houses for the working classes having waterclosets, when plans have been sent in for buildings. Myopinion is that the privy might be used in such a way that all the ashes from the houses might be sent into it, and all the excrement might be removed, so as not to be injurious, even in hot periods of the year. Com- bined with that system of privies, I would have a system of continual removal. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 11 o'clock. Wakefield, Wednesday, 17th October 1866, PRESENT: ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THoRNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Professor John THOMAS WAY. Mr. EDMUND LYNAMI (of Wakefield) examined. 609. (Chairman.) How long have you been borough surveyor –About eight months. I held an appoint- ment at Bradford before. 610. About how much of this town is sewered 2– Most of the principal streets in the town are sewered. 611. Have you a plan of the sewers here?—Yes. 612. Have you any idea how many houses are drained 2–I do not know the number. 613, Where do the sewers empty their contents — Into an arm of the River Calder, just below the mill goit. 614. Have you ever noticed the character of the material?—Yes, I have noticed it many times, and the water has very rarely been particularly foul. There has been a great quantity of water coming down, but not much excrements. 615. What class of houses have waterclosets in Wakefield –Very few; only the better class of houses. 616. Are there either waterclosets or soil-pans in any of the cottages —I do not know of any. 617. You have not put any up 2–Not since I have been here. - 618. Where does the sewage of the gaol and asylum and the workhouse find its way to ?–The West Riding prison sewage matter is conveyed into the Ing's Road sewer, one of the main sewers, and from thence to the general outlet. There is only one outlet for the sewage. 619. Generally the whole of the sewage of those establishments finds its way to the river ?–Yes. 620. Are the sewers fully ventilated –They are very ill ventilated. I do not know of any sewer that has any ventilation at present. 621. Have you any means of flushing them —No means are carried out now. 622. Have you man-hole arrangements for examin- ing the sewers ?—There are man-holes in all the sewers, but they are at long distances apart. 623. Have they moveable covers, so that you can easily get at them —The covers are moveable, but we cannot very easily get down. 624. They are not made convenient for examination of the sewers ?—Not very convenient; not at all con- venient for cleaning out the sewers. - 625. Do you employ men to cleanse the sewers by hand 2–Yes. I found a great want of cleansing in the sewers, and I have received an order from the Sewerage Committee to get whatever may be neces- sary for this purpose. 626. Have you had an order this summer?—Within the last month; and I have given instructions to carry out such work. 627. Is it contemplated to complete the sewerage of Wakefield 2–It seems to be the expressed wish of the committee to get all the sewers carried out that have been set out on a general scheme which has been presented to the Government. 628. When was that scheme introduced 2–Plans were submitted last year. - 629. Did any inspector visit the town to examine the plans and report upon them —Mr. Ranger and Mr. Robert Morgan. Mr. Morgan was, I think, em- ployed by Mr. Ranger subsequently perhaps to com- plete them. 630, Your plans are therefore very old –Yes, they are. 631. Have you received any instructions to devise a º system of sewerage for the whole borough 2 -lºn O. 632. There is no completed system of sewerage, and you have not as yet apparently devised a com- pleted system. (Mr. Morgan.) We think we have, and that the plans which have been prepared by Mr. Robert Mor- gan, when amended, are the plans that will be carried out. Those very plans have been to the Home Office, and have been approved of. 633. (To the witness.) Do you know what has been the expenditure upon the main sewers ? What have you borrowed –The board have taken powers to borrow 12,500/. I think they have already borrowed about 6,000l. or 7,000l. They have expended about 4,000l. or 5,000l., and they are carrying on new works for sewerage, and they have made application to the Home Office for permission to borrow the whole rate- able value of the borough. 634. Which is how much?–72,000l. I will put in a paper, in which I have taken out the correct rateable value of the property from 1848 to 1866. It shows how the rateable value has increased, 635. You have made up your minds to shut your eyes and act in the dark, and to borrow the whole rateable value –They would not borrow the whole at once, but as it was required. For all the new sewers we have man-holes. 636. With moveable covers ?—For the new work. 637. With proper arrangements for disinfecting the gases, and for ventilation ?–In those which we are carrying out now we have those provisions. 638. You are making proper arrangements for flushing 2–Yes, we shall do that. 639. Do the Town Council or the Local Board of Health serve notices on owners of property to drain their houses when the sewers have been put in the streets —We have done so lately ; we have given Some notices. 640. Are you aware that the Town Council have the power, and that it is their bounden duty, to serve notices on all owners of property, as the main sewers are constructed, to drain their houses, and if they do not do it to drain them for them 2–Yes, I am aware that there is such a power. 641. Do you carry it out —Yes, in those cases wherever it is pointed out to us as being necessary. 642. Where some person points out the state of things as being a nuisance —Yes. 643. Have you visited any of the places where sewage is applied to land for agricultural purposes 2 —I have not; I have only read reports upon them. WAKE- FIELD. S. Holdsworth, Esq., M.D. 16 Oct. 1866. Mr. E. Lynam, 17 Oct. 1866. C 3 22 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAKE- FIELD. Mr. E. Lymam. 17 Oct. 1866. Mr. W. Woolass. - 644. Have you examined the land below your outlet on either side of the river, to see if there was sufficient area to apply your sewage —Not with that purpose. 645. Have you examined any works where sewage is treated in other ways, where the solid refuse is taken out, and where the water is clarified before it is passed into the river ?—No, but I have read a report on some of those matters. They have been lately carrying out such works at Blackburn, and I have had a description of those works from a person who has visited them, but I have not seen any of them. 646. You have not been instructed by the Local Board to make yourself acquainted with any such works —Not as yet. 647. Are you carrying out the main sewerage now? —Yes; we are carrying out three main sewers at pre- sent, one along Thorne's Lane, one along the Stanley and Aberford Roads, and one in Southgate. 648. Are they being done by contract —The two large ones are being carried out by a contractor, and the small ones we are doing ourselves. 649. Are there any ditches, or foul burns, or chan- nels, within the area of the borough into which adjoining houses pass their refuse —There are several such places in the borough. 650. In what condition are they in hot weather ?— During this summer there have been several com- plaints made respecting one or two of them, and orders have been given by the committee that they should be cleansed. 651. Would the bad condition of these places be removed by proper sewering —All those places I think, without exception, will be removed when the present system of sewerage is fully carried out. 652. Have you any further suggestions to offer to the Commissioners?—I have made this remark when I have been down at the outfall of the sewers, and at the outfall of Ing’s beck, that the most foul water comes down from the beck, considerably more than comes from the outlet of the sewers. 653. What does that arise from ?—I think it arises from the manufacturers being allowed to turn all the refuse, dye water and sud water into the beck, instead of being compelled to put it into the sewers. 654. Which manufacturers are those—can you name them —There are several manufacturers in Westgate who do so. 655. What do they manufacture?—I believe it is worsted yarn. 656. And soapsuds, and dye refuse water, are turned into the beck –Yes, generally they are. 657. Is there no sewer there 2–Yes there is, but I believe the manufacturers are almost forced to turn it into the beck—having taken the water out from the beck, they have to return it there again. 658. You have stated that the beck is fouler than the sewers ?—I think it is considerably fouler. 659. To look at 2–Yes, and the water has more effect on the river than our sewers, and for a longer distance, considerably. 660. (Professor Way.) That beck in fact acts as a sewer —Yes, principally as a sewer for the refuse water from the Mills. 661. (Mr. Harrison.) Was a plan submitted to the Local Government Act Office last year before you ob- tained permission to borrow 12,000l. —Yes, it was submitted before the money was borrowed. 662. Where was the outlet shown on the plan 2– There was an outlet formed before those plans were submitted. 663. And that outlet was shown on the plans?— Yes. 664. Was it made known to the authorities of the Local Government Act Office that that outlet was at a short distance above the point whence the water is taken for the supply of the town —I do not know, I alm Sure. 665. Is there any deposit in the river below the outfall of the sewers ?—There does not seem to be a great quantity. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM Wool Ass (of Wakefield) examined. 666. (Chairman.) What are you?—I am the aque- duct keeper at Stanley Ferry. 667. Over the Calder 2–Yes. 668. How long have you known this district — I have lived here during 27 years. 669. At that particular place —Yes. 670. Are you a native of this place?—No, but I had worked for the company before then ; I have been with them turned 30 years. 671. Engaged on the river ?–Yes, I was engaged on the river Aire before I came to Stanley Ferry; I came to Stanley Ferry in 1839. 672. Who constructed that aqueduct?—Mr. Graham was the contractor ; Mr. Leather was the civil engi- neer for it. 673. What condition was the water of the Calder in at that time –It was very good at that time, and there were plenty of fish in it. I have fished in it and got several sorts of fish. I have caught chub, dace, bream, and pike, and sometimes I have caught some salmon-trout. 674. At about what date, as far as you can recollect, did the fish begin to diminish in number 2—About 12 years back. - 675. Not more ?–No, we have scarce seen any fish now for these several years; now I do not see any. 676. Do you think there is such a thing as fish in it 2–It is possible, but I do not see any, they used to be playing alſout on the top, running by scores and hundreds. 677. What form does the pollution take, is it from sewage, or from manufactories –All sorts of filth come—refuse from every place. I have seen more than 40 dead dogs pass in a day when the flood has been on ; I do not say regularly, but in a case offlood, dead pigs in a putrid state, and dead calves in a putrid state. 678. (Mr. Harrison.) Those are dead dogs and calves which have been lying on the banks of the river decaying, and which the flood took from the bank and carried past you ?—Yes. 679. (Chairman.) Is it the duty of any person to take those carcases out and bury them?—I am not aware of that. 680. It is not your duty 2–I have taken some of them and buried them when they have been very bad indeed, when I could not bear the smell of them. 681. It was no part of your duty, and you would not have been complained of if you had not done it? —No. 682. You were not paid for doing it 2–No, I did it without being paid. 683. Do you know what height the floods rise in your river opposite your ferry, vertically, from extreme low water to extreme high water —Yes, about 16 feet, sometimes the flood will flow right over the top ; I have walked across the aqueduct when the water has been flowing over the top of it, that was in 1840, January 24th, at half-past 3 in the morning. 684. Was the waterway beneath the duct impeded by the wreck of trees and timber and things floating down the river ?–Yes, at times we had an accumula- tion against the breakwater. 685. A blocking of the stream —Yes, the stream was nearly as high at the low side as the top side. 686. Were you not afraid that the aqueduct would be carried away ?—I hardly knew then what it would bide. I was never afraid of its going away after that I saw what it would stand, and something else, I saw it counterbalanced. I mean by counterbalanced, that the water at the low side flowed back against the aqueduct and counterbalanced the water at the top side. . 687. Do your banks wash away very much during Rivers commission :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 23 those floods 2—In some places a little, not a very great deal. - 688. Has the river altered its course in any part : is it dug out on one side, and is land formed on the other ?–In some places willows have been planted, and forced the water to the other side, and then it will dig under the bank. 689. Who plants the willows?—The landowners and land occupiers, I believe. - 690. And they have the advantage of cutting the willows when they are grown –Yes, and they do so. 691. The persons who employ you do not control that kind of thing 2–No. 692. You have no power over it *—No. 693. Do you think that the bed of the river is any higher now than when you first knew it ; has it been fiiſed in by solid refuse thrown in above in any place —In several places it has. 694. Does the river flood the adjoining land any- where near this ferry of yours ?—Sometimes, but very seldom. 695. I believe the banks are very steep there -- Yes, they are, the water has to rise about 16 or 17 feet before it can come over the duct. 696. Do you know the river above and below you ? —Yes - 697 Are there any areas below or above that are covered with water during floods –At times the water is backed up ; there are drains, outlets into the river, and if the door is not shut in a case of flood, the water runs up them and gets over the land. 698. Outlet drains from the land with self-acting flaps to keep the flood water going back –Yes, if anything gets in and keeps the door open the water goes up. 699. Have you the charge of any of those flood- water outlets —No. 700. Has any one charge of them —I am not aware that there is anyone ; the landowners themselves attend to them, I believe. 701. Do you think as much water comes down the river now in a flood, as came down when you first knew it 2–Yes, I think so; it was in 1840 when that large flood was ; we have not had one to equal it since. 702. Did the Holm Firth flood come down the Calder 2–Yes. 703. Did that flood bring any bodies down as low as this 2–Yes, I picked up one myself that came to my place in 1852. 704. So far as you can judge, the floods are now as heavy as when you first knew the district – Pretty near the same. 705. You do not think that the water has fallen off from any cause —No. 706. You are below the waterworks, are you not * —No, I am above them, 707. Would those carcases of dogs be floated down past the waterworks –Yes, they would. - 708. Do you think, according to your experience, that measures could be taken to prevent this pollution of the river ?–It is quite possible that all the dogs might be got out before they came to the water- works. 709. You could prevent that much —Yes, that is one thing; then there are dead pigs which come down very much putrified. 710. How have those carcases got there?—I think they have been put in ; some of them have weights of stones tied to their necks. 711. That is in the case of dogs 7–Yes, and pigs and calves I believe have been thrown in. 712. Do cows and horses come down?—I cannot say that we have any. 713. To whom do the tolls of the ferry go —I pay them over to the company ; the Aire and Calder Navigation Company. 714. Are they as much now as they were when you first went there 2–About the same. 715. How much do they amount to in a year or a quarter 2–I am sure I do not know exactly, the average will perhaps be 100l. a year. 716. At what time of the year, as far as your ex- perience has gone, have you the heaviest floods?— Generally winter time. 717. After the melting of the snow 2–Yes, after a long succession of rains. 718. Do you know whether there are fish in the river above you for any distance –Sometimes I take an occasional walk that way, but I never see any fish now; I used to do. 719. How many miles above do you go?—I go from the ferry to Kirkthorpe dam, about two miles. 720. (Mr. Harrison.) Is the river embanked near where you live, on each side –Yes, it is, there is an embankment on either side, of something like about two feet in places. 721. Do the Aire and Calder Company dredge the river at any time –They do. We have the dredger here. He is now present, and he has been a dredger for these 39 years. 722. Do you know what the fall at the several locks in the river is, above and below you?—The fall is from 5 feet to 7 feet, or 7 feet 10 inches. 723. What is the fall at the lock above you ?–It is level at times when there is a flood, that is, Broad- reach Lock: it has floodgates. It is the feeder of the canal. 724. (Professor Way.) Does the river smell at your place –In hot weather it does very badly. 725. Does the river itself smell, or the banks, when the water is low —Yes, at times they do, the mud and thick matter. 726. That smells badly —Yes; we have openings in the banks and settlings, and there will be some- times from 2 feet to 2 feet 6 inches of all kinds of thick matter, and if you stir that it smells badly. 727. Then a quantity of air escapes and a bad smell ?–Yes; in hot weather there rise up to the top of the stream great thick pieces of various colours. 728. And then break and fall down again –Yes. 729. Is there much sickness about where you are 2 —No; I have been there 27 years, and I believe I am now the only one about there, all my neighbours have gone off, there is hardly one left there but myself. 730. Did they live to a good age 2–Not very, some of them were very little more than half the age of me. 731. There is a little public-house close to the ferry, and there is a well there of peculiarly good water, is there not ?–Yes; I am very fond of that water, I like it very well. 732. Do they use it for brewing at the public-house * —Yes. 733. Do they ever brew from the river water — They used to do, at least they did at the other public- house, but they do not now, they have got a pump in as well. 734. They do not brew with the river water because the water is not good enough 2–I do not know, most likely that is the reason. The witness withdrew. - The witness subsequently informed the Commission that there had been a great flood on the 17th November; the water ran 2 feet 6 inches above the viaduct at half-past 5 A.M. Mr. WILLIAM Holm Es (of Wakefield) examined. 735. (Chairman.) Have you charge of a dredger employed in cleansing the Calder –Yes. 736. How long have you been employed on the Calder?–40 years come next April. 737. How long have you had charge of a dredger- boat —About 17 years. 738. When did the Company first commence to use a dredger ?—-Before I came to the navigation. WAKE- FIELD. Mr. W. Woolas. 17 Oct. 1866. -- Mr. W. Holmes. C 4 24 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAKE- FIELD. Mr. W. Holmes. 17 Oct. 1866, 739. They have had a dredger-boat more or less since the navigation was established ?–Yes. 740. Is yours a steam dredger ?–Yes. 741. Of what power –About 17-horse. 742. How many tons can you dredge in an hour with it when you are working full work?—If we had gravel, or anything like that, we could get out 60 tons in 20 minutes. 743. How many tons do you get out usually –We are in general half an hour in loading a boat, and she will hold 50 tons. 744. What does it cost you a week to work your dredger?—The men that work these boats will take 36 yards, and they have 4}d. a yard for taking it and delivering it; we are constantly kept a-gait all the year round, there are 21 men continually employed with that dredger, that I have to deal with ; I am the head of them. 745. What wages do they receive –Sometimes they will earn 24s, a man per week. 746. Is the water and mud of the Calder any better now than it was formerly or worse 2–It is a great deal worse. 747. Do you find that you have to take more sludge out than you did formerly 2–Yes; we used to be three months together laid on one side in a year with the dredger, and during that time we used to go to work at something else. Now we have two dredgers, there is one at work at Ferry Bridge at present, and one at work at Castleford, beyond the junction with the Aire. I go between Wakefield and Goole, and Leeds and Selby, and that is as far as the Aire and Calder goes. 748. How many miles is that in a right line?—It is 31 miles from Wakefield to Goole; I think that that is far as we go. 749. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the distance from Castleford to Leeds P-Somewhere about 11 miles. 750. Is there any other district which you dredge besides those two 2–No, that is as far as the Aire and Calder goes. My dredger is so big we cannot get through Wakefield Locks, she has more power than the new one. 751. (Chairman.) Do you dredge the Calder above the waterworks —No, I cannot get there ; where the waterworks are it is not now navigable. 752. You do not dredge up to the aqueduct 2–No, but in the cut. 753. Not in the river ?—No, we cannot get there. 754. As to the condition of the river, did you hear what Mr. Woolass said about dead dogs and carcases of pigs —We have a deal to do with them, we have been surfeited, many of them have stones round their necks when they are thrown in, and when we light upon these we cut them in pieces with the pans, and they very near surfeit us. 755. Are there more dogs than there used to be formerly 2–We have a deal more dogs and a deal more work. I can tell you one thing, I was dredging the Fall Ing lock half a mile below this dam. I saw three or four cargoes brought out together, consisting solely of ashes that came from the engines, they had been shot in by carts at night to get quit of them—- ours is rather a hard service. 756. If you did not dredge those ashes out, what would happen —They would make a shoal where boats could not go ; if it was not for us there would not be a passage in the navigation at all. 757. Do you find more cinders in the river now than you did when you first began dredging 2–Yes, a deal more, and of the stuff that comes through those mills and those manufactories, there is a deal of wool, nasty wool sunk in the river bottom by tons, short wool among the mud. 758. Is that difficult to dredge 2–No, you can take it out all dry with your hands as if it had not been in the water. 759. You find much more of that than you did formerly 2–Yes, a great deal more. 760. Have you any tan refuse to dredge out, spent bark 2–No, I never see that. 761. Would that float away?—Yes, 762. Does the wool come most down the Calder or down the Aire 2–I have had it down both. When I am dredging at Castleford I have to dredge in the Wakefield Dyke end as well as the Leeds Dyke end ; when I dredge this Calder Dyke I can take that woolly stuff by handfuls out of the pans as they come U10. P; 63. Do you ever attempt to do anything with it * —No, it goes into the boats, and we take it into the old river where we can get quit of it, in the old river that has been divided and is not used. It is very expensive work there, we are forced to have extra men when we are doing that, we have 25 men at present running that mud that we get out of the Leeds Dyke end, that is, out of the Aire. 764. What is the entire expense of your dredging boat 2–It will be from 11, to 30s, a cargo, and we are loading in sometimes five and sometimes six of the boats a day in that fashion there. Once they lent our dredger to the railway company, and charged them 5l. a day for it, the railway company finding all the men except the captain. 765. Did the railway company find the coals and the tallow and oil 2–No, not the tallow nor the coals; the Aire and Calder company had to find them coals, but they found all the boats to take the stuff away. We employ six men on board of the dredger con- tinually and we are never left idle on Sunday or work- day. #6. Where do you think most of the ashes come from ?—A good deal comes from Wakefield, not far off from here either. 767. Where do they mostly come from ?—I come and cleanse that shoal nearly every year, sometimes twice in the slack ; there is one arch in the slack that has mud, and in some places there is a bed of sand, and coal slack, and all sorts of stuff. 768. I suppose the Aire and Calder company put the coal slack in 2–I do not think they do. 769. Then the people who carry coals and use the river ?–No, they do not, it is the coal masters; they have a screen on the nape of the stairs, and they neglect taking the fire-dust away; they have a place to catch it. I have seen tons run overboard into the river; but that is all neglect. I have seen that at Fox Holes, that is in Wakefield Dyke. 770. Do floods trouble you very much 2–Not so much. - 771. Do not they stop the dredging 2–Very little, we can work with a four feet fresh. 772. What height does a fresh come occasionally, much above four feet –At the topside of the dam it flows four feet, and if there are four above the dam, it will flow 8 feet below the dam, that is as much more. 773. Are four feet above as high as you ever have it over the dam 2–No, we have had at the topside of the dam six feet. - 774. Then will it be 12 feet below the dam 2–Yes; where I live, at the dam at Pen Bank, as they call it— I have tried it. 775. Is the dam ever levelled fairly up, so that the boats could go right over ?—Nearly so, when there is a heavy flood. 776. (Mr. Harrison.) What fall is there at the dam in dry weather ?—About seven feet, in summer time, when it is low. 777. What is the length of the dam —Forty yards, I daresay, I do not know exactly. 778. (Professor Way.) Do you know the well that has been referred to near to the public-house at the Ferry –Yes, I have seen it many times at the pump. 779. Is it a deep well or a shallow well?—I do not think it is very deep, it will happen to be level with the surface of the river. - 780, Does its height vary with the floods?—I do not know, but we have no right to use the well water down at any of those houses. I live under the Aire and Calder company, at one of the bridge houses, and we have no water to use but that which is in the canal and comes down from Wakefield. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 25 781. Do you like it —Sometimes we do not, it smells very bad in the day time. 782. Do you use it for cooking 2–Yes, we have no wells, but at Pen Bank it is all hard water—cankery— and we do not like it. 783. (Chairman.) Does the smell ever make you or your men sick —Yes, it nearly takes off our appetites sometimes, in the morning when we are cleansing sometimes, that is not here but at Leeds, we are forced to get a bit of bread to take the faintness off before we start, so nasty is the stuff that comes up. 784. Do you get any brandy?—Not much of it, we cannot afford it. 785. Have you known many of the men made seriously ill, or to have had fever after coming in contact with these bad smells 2–I have been bad enough myself, and I have been laid up poorly 10 weeks together. - 786. From what cause –I cannot say, we have all sorts of weather to fight. 787. You do not know whether the bad smell has made any of the men seriously ill, but you have suffered from colds and occasional illnesses as other people do —Yes, that is all, I do not know that it has made any difference to us. 788. You are no worse than other people that delve and ditch in clean places —I think not, but the rivers are a deal worse than they used to be, they are shock- ing bad, and it is owing to the stuff that they are turning into the rivers continually, we can see on all sides of us the stuff coming in, when we are working at Leeds we see what is coming in, there are the chemical works there, those are bad. I loaded a boat at the side of one, and the men kept a cargo in the vessel all night, and when they got to bed they pulled their hatches on all snug, next morning one of them was almost dead, smothered with the smell of the cargo that they had in, it was that bad; he had work enough to recover, he was up in a different boat from me. 789. Do you remember whether he was able to work that day ?—Yes ; but very poorly he was all the day. It burns the shoes off their feet very near, does that stuff. Then we fetched the chemical works people up to the Aire and Calder Navigation Office about it. 790. Did you summon them —No ; we fetched them up without, and took a bucket of their nasty stuff that came up with the pans to the office, we fetched them up sharp, and they promised never to let it go in again, but they did. 791. Do the gas manufacturers let any of their foul refuse go into the river ?–Not so much I think, very little, we sometimes smell a little, but very little. 792. It is the stuff from the chemical works that annoys you the most 2–No ; there are the dyeworks as well. 793. Does the refuse from them smell badly –We dredge out all sorts of dirt below places where they make the cloth, those works are running in dirt con- stantly, running old rags and running the pouse in, and by that means they make a shoal in the river, and every vessel that is coming up is stopped on the top of it, while they are sending it in. 794. They are not very much afraid of you ?–No, they are not. I told them I thought they would have to alter it, and it is time that they did. 795. Who are the gentlemen whom you consider your masters ?—Mr. Bartholomew, the engineer, is our master altogether. 796. Does he look after those people when they are throwing this nasty pouse in 2–No, he does not he does not meddle in that kind of thing, and that is what I am come here to tell. 797. (Mr. Harrison.) How far below Wakefield do your duties commence —We go into the canals when . we get to Broad-reach. 798. You dredge the river to within a mile of Wakefield 2–Yes; we come in at the Fall Ing lock, about half a mile from the dam. 799. You do not dredge the river at Wakefield, or below it —Yes, we dredge the river at Wakefield, at 17159,-2. what we call Foundry Shoal, close to the Railway Bridge where the muck lies up and also up river to Fall Ing lock. 800. Do you dredge at all below the point where the Wakefield Sewer comes out into the river ?–Yes, right away to the Cut-end, going into the canal, then we cannot get any further down towards the dam below. 801. Do you find any bank formed below the sewer that comes out of Wakefield 2–No, it lies all the way down, and at the end of the canal as well; the canal is being raised all over with the filth that comes down the river, and the settlings of the water; we have to dredge in the canal above Stanley Ferry right away to the top of the Cut ; I have dredged it all. 802. Where is the top of the Cut –It is about a mile from Stanley Ferry to the top of the Cut. 803. Do the Aire and Calder Company dredge the river above where you go up towards Dewsbury – Yes. 804. Is the person who looks after the dredger there here 2–He is at Ferry Bridge now, dredging, he can get up above, he is dredging in the Goole Canal. 805. (Chairman.) Do you ever see any of the people about Leeds or any of those places bathing in the river ?—Continually in that mucky water ; here is the bridge, and that is the river (describing) just at the low side of Leeds, about half a mile off, they get on to that bridge and leap off; people tried to stop them, and some of the policemen watched them, to prevent them from stripping there right before folks, we have seen the boys constantly leap off that bridge into the river when we have been cleaning it out in 9 feet of water. 806. Do you know the point where the Leeds sewers go into the river ?—Yes. 807. Is there a bank formed below the Leeds sewers ?—Yes. 808. Is that formed by the filth that the Leeds sewers bring down?—Yes, the filth never gets out there, we have been working at the side of that sewer at the low side of Leeds. Sewage from that sewer comes in below Thwaite Dam, some distance from Leeds. There is a piece of the sewer which runs open may be nearly a quarter of a mile all open below Leeds. 809. With no top on it 2–No, I went and looked that sewer over not long since, may be two months since I was there ; I looked it over, the stuff was run- ning down, but I could see mo water, it was all over a froth and all sorts of nastiness were on the top, the top is continually covered with a scum, so that you cannot see the water, only where it delivers itself into the river; it falls into the river stiff with muck of all kinds. 810. Does that give you any trouble in the river below 2–Yes; where I am working now at Castleford, on one side of the river it is very slack. I can find that stuff there, it comes up by panfulls, all sorts of nasti- ness, and it comes from that sewer, I am certain. I find that at Castleford, 10 or 11 miles off, it comes down the old river. 811. You think that it comes down from Leeds 2– I am certain of it, sometimes when I have been for- ward on the dredger, a pan has come out with the muck, I have had to go right away aft nearly sick. 812. Do children bathe in the river below Leeds 2 —Yes, where there is a shallow place they will. 813. They go into the dirty water –Yes; last summer I was cleansing at Leeds; I have been five months there now, cleansing below Leeds; you could See no water in that river for muck and nastiness. 814. On account of the scum ?–Yes, at the top there was nothing but nastiness. 815. Did you ever see birds walking on that scum ? —No, but I have noticed what takes place in the morning many times. When the beasts could get no water but this river water, in a field at Rothwell Haigh called the Waterloo Pasture, the beasts drank it, and began to die ; they had none else, and they were forced to go to it, and they began to die in that D WAKE- FIELD. Mr. W. Holmes. 17 Oct. 1866. - 26 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WAKE- FIELD. Mr, W. Holmes. 17 Oct. 1866. Mr. J. Sykes. pasture; several have died there; that was last summer, which was a bad summer ; there were no freshets to take the dirt away. 816. (Mr. Harrison.) You did not take it away fast enough 2–No, I was not able in one sense, as soon as the water became level with the dam, all that stuff used to run down, but then the paper-mills at Woodlesford below took all the spare water that they could get, so that the water did not run over the dam and there was nothing to take the dirt away. 817. In dry weather which takes most water down, the Aire or the Calder 2–I should say the Calder by a good deal. We have a deal more water in Wake- field Dyke than we have in Leeds Dyke. This summer we have had a four-feet fresh, while we have had none in Leeds Dyke ; it has run up Leeds Dyke, and when it has come down Wakefield Dyke as far as the dams it has backed up. 818. In a dry summer which has brought the largest quantity of water down —We have a better supply down Wakefield Dyke than down Leeds Dyke. 819. Which is the most polluted 2–Leeds, in the up- per part, that is 10 times worse than this. When we are dredging in Leeds Dyke, we go anywhere for a sup of water ; but in this dyke we can use the water; we have to use this water; but Leeds Dyke water when we are below Leeds, we cannot use, it is that bad, it would give us cholera directly, or anything else. 820. Are your men pretty healthy 2–Yes, they are. 821. With regard to the shoals, are they formed chiefly after severe floods?—Yes, always ; they al- ways come down in the freshes, the freshes leave all the stuff behind them. Foundry Shoal is a constant thing for us, for the piers at the railway bridge are not put in strait to the water, and this causes a slack. 822. During the summer time when there is not much fresh in the river, are shoals formed at different points near manufactories, and so forth 2–Then we are not in the river, we are in the canals then, where they are mudded up with settlings. In sum- mer time when it is dry, we are not wanted so much in the river ; if there is a shoal we remove it, we have come to one at present at Castleford, and we are tak- ing it out. When we have done that, we shall be wanted at Foundry Shoal; it is bad. 823. During the summer time when the water is low, you are chiefly employed in the canals and cuts —Yes. 824. Dredging away sediment which tends to fill up the canal?—Yes. 825. After floods in the winter time you are en- gaged in the river proper, dredging away shoals formed by floods?—Yes. 826. You cannot attribute shoal to any manufactories close by the shoal, as the materials might be carried down the river for 20 or 30 miles P-Yes, but where there is a slack after a fresh, the mud settles. 827. (Chairman.) Do you ever find any dead fish coming down the river now 2–Not now, there are In Olle. 828. You see no fish living in the water 2–No, there are a few gudgeons I believe at the Frost Dam, or Pen Bank Dam, as we call it. 829. Are there fish in the river ?–No; none to be Seen. - 830. There are fish in the river up in the moun- tains away from the manufactories —Yes. I think there is nothing of the sort in this dyke. I have seen odd ones coming down above the manufactories at Leeds, but they have been weak when they have got down. I have seen them floating about at the top to escape from the nasty water, they have come down from above out of their latitude, and they cannot get back again over the dams. There is death for them if they get below Leeds. The witness withdrew. Mr. Joseph SYREs (of Wakefield) examined. 831. (Chairman.) Are you secretary to the Water- works Company ?—Yes, and manager. 832. I believe you have copies of the Acts of Par- liament under which your company has been estab- lished 2–Yes, and I have great pleasure in handing them in. 833. How long have you acted as secretary and manager ?—I have acted as secretary since 1862. when we were re-incorporated under our last Act of Parliament, we were obliged to have an official mana- ger, and I have combined both capacities. 834. The sources of your water supply consist of spring water and river water —Yes. 835. About what proportion does one bear to the other ?–There is about one-fourth of spring to three- fourths of river water. 836. About what daily volume do you supply now * —About 700,000 gallons per day. 837. Do you find that sufficient for your present requirements —Our water is on during the whole 24 hours. The town takes just as much as it requires. 838. Do you know whether the whole town is sup- plied, or only part of it —Almost the whole town, 11OW. 839. Have there been any complaints of scarcity of supply at any time within the last 12 months —I think not within the last 12 months. 840. How much do you supply for manufacturing purposes —As nearly as I can calculate we supply 200,000 gallons a day for manufacturing purposes, and 500,000 gallons for domestic supply. 841. Do you supply the three great establishments, the gaol, the workhouse, and the county lunatic . asylum ?—We do. 842. Upon what terms do you supply the gaol — At 300l. per annum. 843. And the asylum ?–We supply the asylum by meter, at 6d. per 1,000 gallons. 844. And the workhouse –On the same terms, but subject to a scale which we have by meter, rang- ing from 1s, to 6d. 845. How long have those three establishments been supplied with your water –I can scarcely say : I think ever since I have had to do with them. 846. Before the company supplied them, do you know how they obtained water –The prison was chiefly supplied with gathered water from the roofs and springs in the neighbourhood. 847. And the asylum ?—I believe in the same way. 848. And the workhouse 2 – That has not been established so long. They do procure water for themselves partially now. They do not take much water from us. 849. Have there been at any time within the last 10 years epidemics or outbreaks of disease in this district, which have effected the inhabitants of the towns and inmates of those establishments –Yes. 850. At what periods within the last 10 years 2– Both establishments were effected by the last visitation of cholera to a serious amount. 851. Did you always filter the water —Not always; the water was supplied for many years without any filtration whatever. 852. From the river ?–Yes, except å mere strain- ing through cocoa-nut fibre. 853. When did you find it necessary to begin sand filtering 2—About five years ago. 854. You have recently, I understand, adopted Mr. Spencer's mode of filtering water by carbide of iron —Yes. 855. How long has that been established 2–Since August 1864. - 856. I understand you are extending that principle now 7–We are. 857. Do you find that a satisfactory mode of treat- ing the water 2–Yes, very satisfactory. 858. Have you any idea what it costs you per gal- lon, or per 1,000 gallons, to filter by Mr. Spencer's RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 27 process?—I have not gone into that calculation, but I can furnish you with that information if desirable. 859. Do you pump all the water into a high service reservoir, both from springs and from the river ?-We pump it first into our store reservoir, at Stanley Ferry. 860. What is the lift there 2–About 30 feet. Then we pump it to the upper reservoirs with a lift of about 200 feet. 861. What is your total horse-power —Only one engine is used for both purposes. We have two engines, and we use about 25 horse power nominally. 862. Have you at any time suffered inconvenience from a scarcity of water owing to the dryness of the seasons 2–Never. - 863. Do you always find sufficient water in the river ?–Yes. 864. Is the spring supply at all affected by the dry- ness of the season 2–Yes. 865. Did it fall off at the beginning of this year?— We have not any good method of observing what the springs really make. 866. Which do you consider the softest quality of water, the spring or the river water?—The river water is much the softer. 867. Has there been any association with the Local Board for the purchase of your works?—Yes. 868. About how long since?—As far back, I think, as I can almost remember. 869. When was the most recent attempt made –In the latter end of 1862. 870. That came to nothing, I understand –Yes. 871. Do you publish annual accounts for your shareholders ?–Yes. 872. Do they contain the capital account of the company ?–Yes. 873. What is your capital account as it stands now? +-Up to last June it was 60,000l. in round numbers. 874. That is a little more than 21 per head upon the population ?–Yes. 875. Your annual working expenses are how much —For that year they would be about 2,500/. 876. And that capitalized would represent how much at 51, per cent. --Something like 50,000l. 877. That, added to the 60,000l., would give you a capital of 110,000l. —Yes. 878. If the Corporation contemplated purchasing your works, they would have to contemplate an outlay equal to the capital, the interest on which would represent your working cost and your nominal capital? —Yes, and something else besides. 879. What dividend do you pay ?—Six per cent at present. 880. If your works were purchased you would ex- pect them to be purchased on a 6 per cent, basis, at ieast, with a prospective increase of value –Just so. 881. Is there any likelihood of the Corporation doing that 2–Not if we are to judge of the future from the past. 882. Are your company quite content to be left alone 2–Perfectly so; they have no desire to sell, we wish to remain as we are. 883. If any rival scheme were to be set afloat, pro- moted by the corporation, or by any persons in oppo- sition to you, would you resist it?—Certainly. 884. Have you heard of any such rival scheme being proposed ?–Not lately. 885. Have you heard of Mr. Dale's scheme to bring in water from Cumberland Lake 2–Yes. 886. Does that alarm your company ? — Not a whit. 887. Was not a scheme proposed by Mr. Ranger ? —There was one propounded by Mr. Ranger some time ago. - 888. Where did he propose to take the water from? —From the neighbourhood of Dakin Brook. 889. What was his estimate 2–I do not know what his estimate was. 890. Did the proposal come to anything?—No. 891. Will the works intended for the supply of Leeds come anywhere near Wakefield 2–No, they are quite in another direction, they will not affect us. 892. There are waterworks for Dewsbury, Batley, and Heckmondwicke, are there not 2–Yes. 893. Will they affect you ?–No. 894. How far is Dewsbury from here?—About six miles. 895. Is Wakefield lower or higher than Dewsbury —Lower. 896, Mains continued from Dewsbury might supply Wakefield –Yes, if there was water to supply us. 897. Will you describe to us as briefly as you can the process of filtering by the carbide —Do you mean the chemical process, or the mechanical process 898. Both, first of all what is the surface area of your filter –At present it is about 1,100 square yards. 899. What is the weight of carbide in your filter —We have taken one ton of carbide to three square yards. 900. Then you calculate that each square yard will filter a certain number of gallons a day?—Yes. At present we are obliged to filter our water much more quickly than we should like to do. 901. Are you filtering it now more quickly than you intend to do —Yes. 902. Are you constructing additional filters?—We are constructing about 1,400 square yards of additional filtering space. 903. Do you propose to use those 1,400 yards at the same time that you are using the other filter 2–Not exactly. 904. Then you will use the 1,400 yards, and the 1,100 yards alternately?—The 1,100 yards are divided into two filter beds; we are also constructing the 1,400 yards in two beds, so that when finished we shall have four filter beds; we find it necessary occasionally to let the filtering medium have a quantity of air, therefore we propose to work two or three filter beds as the nature of the water requires, and to have one in fallow. 905. Then according to the condition of the water you will use one, two, or at the most three of the filtering beds?—Yes. 906. Always leaving one fallow to come in alter- nately as you throw the others off for cleansing purposes?—Yes. 907. Then your maximum power of filtering will be the area of three of those beds 2—Or four, if we think proper to use four. 908. Then you cannot have a fallow one?—No ; three beds will represent the area that we shall have in use ordinarily. 909. And the largest area which you could use would be that represented by the four filter beds?— Yes. 910. Have you any idea how long your carbide will continue to be effectual if you put it in in this manner? —If the media which we are now using in the filter beds last in the same way as some that we have been experimenting upon, I do not see that there is to be any end of it at all. I have now some material which I have used over seven years, and I believe that it is perhaps more effective to-day than it was on the first day that it was put in. I am speaking now of a mere portable filter, but what is true of one will be true of the other. 911. Then as far as your experience leads you to judge, if the material is properly applied, you may go on using it continuously —Quite so. 912. Have you paid sufficient attention to the mode of action, to explain briefly how this carbide is sup- posed to act upon the water —Yes, but I do not feel competent to give a description of the chemical pro- CeSS. 913. Can you give a description of the mechanical process, and state how these filters are constructed. Supposing that your pumps have to lift the water, you have screening chambers between the river and the inlet of the pumps ?–We have no screen what- between the river and the pumps. WAKE- FIELD. - Mr. J. Sykes. 17 Oct. 1866. D 2 28 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAKE- EIELD. Mr. J. Sykes. 17 Oct. 1866. - 914. Then your water is lifted into your store reservoir 2–Yes, direct. 915. Does a deposition take place in that store reservoir 2–Yes. 916. After that deposition has taken place, the water flows to the pumps to be lifted into the filter beds 2—Yes. - 917. Do you screen it by cocoa-nut fibre before it gets to the pumps?—Yes. 918. By one thickness of cocoa-nut fibre?–Yes. 919. How long will the screen work without cleans- ing –Sometimes a fortnight and sometimes three weeks. 920. Is it foul when you take it out, or merely obstructive 2–It is merely obstructive ; it is not very foul. - 921. And you wash it and put it in again –Yes. 922. Have you cocoa-nut fibre strainers up at the filter beds 2—Yes, previous to the water going on to the filter beds. 923–4. Have you then arranged perpendicularly and horizontally —No, only horizontally. 925. Over an iron trough —Yes. 926. Then the water passes on to the town, the sand forming the surface of your filter bed –Yes. 927. What is the depth of that sand 2–18 inches, but that is according to the nature of the cleansing, we do not put the sand on for filtering purposes, but to intercept. 928. What does the sand rest upon –It rests upon the carbide. 929. The carbide is immediately under the sand 2 —Yes. 930. What carries the carbide –The carbide is carried by a stratum of small gravel. 931. Of what thickness 2—About three inches. 932. What carries the gravel ?—The filtering drains. 933. How are these drains constructed 2–They are square brick drains, and we suppose them to be tightly cemented. There are apertures at the top of those drains, and upon them we place a peculiar kind of delivering cup. 934. Those delivering cups are for the purpose of admitting the water and, I presume, admitting a certain amount of atmospheric air –Yes, and checking the flow of water into the drains, our object being to keep the water in contact with the carbide as long as we possibly can. 935. Are those drains filled with the filtered water, or have you air space above the top of the water in the drains 2—So far as I can see I do not think that the drains are at any time charged above one-fourth. 936. And necessarily nine inches out of twelve would be charged with air?—Yes. 937. And the air would be rising up into the filter- ing matter above?—We think so. 938. It comes up through the conduits which you have provided ?–Yes. 939, Does it bubble through the sand 3–Yes, but slightly—not to any great extent. 940. If you did not provide proper channels it would blow the sand up 3–Yes. 941. And in fact would destroy your filter bed 2– Yes. 942. How frequently do you scrape or cleanse your sand 2–Sometimes after ten days, sometimes a fort- night ; we have gone as long as three weeks without having to interfere with the top sand. 943. Then you wash that sand and use it again – Yes. 944. Washing the mud away ?–Yes. 945. Do you know any other place where carbide is used on so extensive a scale as yours ?—I have not seen any other place. 946. Have you heard of any ?—I have heard of SOrne. 947. Where?—At Wisbeach, Southport, and several other places, which I cannot now call to mind. 948. Do you know whether it is used at the Liver- pool Waterworks?—I do not. 949. Have you had occasion to try whether it would take out any vegetable taint, supposing that you had a moss water 2–No. 950. Does it effectually take out any remnant of dye in your water 2—Yes. 951. Is not your water stained occasionally with washings of dyeworks –I have not seen it so stained materially. 952. Is the water of the river not blue above the works –It may be blue above, but I ought to state that the time we choose for replenishing our store reser- voirs is after we have had a fresh in the river, and not when the river is low. 953. What will your store reservoir hold 2–I do not know, it is nearly five acres. 954. Of what depth is it 2–About 15 feet. 955. Have you found it necessary to cleanse it 2 —We have only cleansed it once since the works began. 956. What did you get out of it 2–We got mud from it. 957. Have you any fish in that store reservoir 2– Plenty. 958. Of what sort —I am no fisherman myself. 959. But fish do live in that stone reservoir 2–Yes. 960. Although none live in the river ?—Although none live in the rivers. We have had such numerous applications for fishing that we have been obliged to adopt this practice giving permission to fish (pro- ducing a card). 961. Are those cards for fishing issued now?—No, we have not issued any since we cleansed at the latter end of 1862. 962. Have you then in cleansing destroyed the fish by emptying the reservoir –The reservoir was com- pletely emptied and re-pitched, we did not put in any fish, but there are thousands in now. 963. (Mr. Harrison.) You have said that you sup- ply about 200,000 gallons a day to the manufactories in the town 2–Yes. 964. Can you give us the details of that supply to the different manufactories —Not now. If you deem it desirable I can give you particulars as to every customer that we have. 965. The manufacturers themselves of course know the quantity which you supply to them –We gene- rally supply them by meter. 966. Do you find much difference in the level of the well from which you draw the water near the river at different seasons of the year —Yes, the water in our well is always on a level with the river, of course as the river rises the water in the well will rise. 967. Do you never drain the water below the level of that in the river ?–No. 968. Is the culvert between the river and your well perforated to a considerable extent so as to allow the spring water to pass in 2–Yes. 969. That is the water from the gravel ?—That is the water from the gravel strata along the culvert, it comes originally from the river. 970. During heavy rains where would the water come from which supplies the springs, perforating through the culvert —I should think that a great portion of it would percolate through the soil; it is a gravelly stratum. 971. Is there a large area of that gravelly stratum ? —Yes, a very large area. 972. Then in very wet seasons you might be draw- ing water entirely from that source, and none from the river?—In very dry seasons we might, but not in wet seasons because there would be so much water in the river that it would be almost impossible to get water from any other source than the river, the well being so thoroughly charged. 973. You mean that the level of the water in the river is higher than the level of the water in the land through which the culvert passes?—Yes. 974. So that the water in that case will be rather water going from the culvert into the adjoining land, than from the adjoining land into the culvert 2–Yes, and I have no doubt that it does so to a great extent, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 29 - and then we get it back again, and filtered naturally to a certain extent. 975. Is the surface of the water in the river ever so low that it reaches the gauge over which it flows into your culvert –It has been so, but very seldom. 976. At that time you would be drawing entirely from the leakage into the culvert P−Yes. 977. That would be in a very dry season —It would. 978. What is the character of the water then :-It is very bright, clear water ; it is rather hard and must contain a great portion of iron. 979. In very wet weather what is the character of the water as compared with that in the river ?–It is very similar to that in the river ; it is similar in character to the water which is obtained from the pump by Stanley Ferry. 980. (Professor Way.) I suppose that this water varies according to the season —Very much. 981. Sometimes it is almost all what you call spring water, which is water that has percolated the surface, and sometimes it is almost all river water, and some- times it is a mixture ?—Yes. 982. You say that you take the water in the time of flood 2–Just after the flood. 983. Therefore your storage reservoir must be full of river water, or surface water 2–Yes. 984. And the river water is the softer of the two —It is. 985. What do you suppose is the general character, with regard to hardness, of the water which you now supply to the town –The maximum may be about eight degrees of hardness. 986. And how low do you think it falls 2–To five degrees. 987. Do you know what the river water is —I do not know what it is now. I have a report published in 1852, which states the result of an analysis of a sample of the water made by Mr. West, of Leeds, and also by Dr. Lyon Playfair, but Dr. Lyon Playfair does not give the hardness; Mr. West does give the hardness, and he makes it to be 2. degrees. 988. (Chairman.) Who made that report 2–This is a report published by the Town Council of Wake- field; a report upon a preliminary inquiry; it is Mr. Ranger's report. 989. (Professor Way.) That was before you began the system of filtration?—Yes, long before. 990. Were not you at that time filtering through sand filters ?–Yes, but not very extensively. 991. Have you an analysis of the water since then? —Yes, we have had several. I have an analysis which was made by Mr. Dugald Campbell, of Chancery Lane, in February 1862. It was made previously to our laying down the present filters. 992. You laid down the filters in August last 2– Yes. The reason why this analysis was got was that the system of filtration had been under experiment, and of course we had only been advised by Mr. Spencer, and I thought it necessary before we really went to the expense of laying down these filters that we should have an independent opinion from some other analytical chemist. I therefore selected Mr. Dugald Campbell, because he was employed by the Local Board of Health at that time, and I thought that if they had confidence in Mr. Dugald Campbell, I might have confidence in him. The consequence was that I filtered a sample of water through a portable filter made upon the same principle as we have now adopted, and I submitted the water to Mr. Campbell, and this is his report and analysis, and that report and analysis determined us to lay down the present filters. 993. This analysis shows half a grain of organic matter in a gallon, nearly 15 grains of total solid residue, and nearly 8 degrees of hardness —Yes. 994. There was no analysis made at the time of the water without filtration, so as to compare the two 7– No, not at that time. 995. Have you at any time had such an analysis made in order to ascertain by direct experiment the effect of Mr. Spencer's carbide ; that is to say, have you had the water analysed before filtration and after filtration ?–No. After these filters had been laid down and had been in operation for three months our directors felt it desirable to have the water analysed, and not only by one individual, but by three or four ; and three or four of the most eminent chemists in London were selected for that purpose. Samples of water were delivered personally by myself, and each gentleman sent down his report, which report was pub- lished in the newspapers, copies of which I shall be very glad to hand to the Commissioners and they will see by the papers who the gentlemen were: 996. Do you know whether Mr. Spencer has in any case obtained a report on this process of his from any chemist of eminence, independent of himself —I dº not know that he has. We have not relied upon Mr Spencer at all in this matter, but we have rather put ourselves in the hands of eminent men, in whom we could have confidence. 997. Is it Mr. Spencer's view that the action of carbide is to oxydate the organic matter principally * —Yes, and to destroy it. 998. And that in so oxydating it the carbide itself undergoes a change, and recovers its capacity for this oxydation by mere exposure to the air —Yes. 999. It is renovated by exposure to the air —Yes. 1000. Then your object in having more than one filter-bed is to expose the carbide to the air after its action has begun to cease, in order to renovate it 2– Yes, after it has become sick, so to speak. 1001, That is Mr. Spencer's view —Yes. 1002. And you think that that is practically the case ?–Yes. 1003. Have you run your filters for any length of time without exposure to the air –Yes. 1004. Have you found that they are improved by that exposure?—An hour's exposure is quite sufficient. 1005. The water was getting less and less purified towards the end of the course of the use of the filter, and when you began again you have found that the water was improved –Very much improved. 1006. So that you think that your practice confirms the theoretical view of Mr. Spencer –I am almost assured of it. 1007. You had not attempted to ascertain the differ- ence produced by the action of this filter, but you seem to have been content to find that the water which is passed through it is a pure water?—Yes. 1008. Is the water softer or harder after being passed through the filter?—The water in the Calder has been gradually getting harder for the last eight or nine years. 1009. Supposing water of a certain hardness to be passed through these beds of Mr. Spencer's, is the hardness increased or diminished by the filtration ?–I believe that it is increased, but not more than one degree, if so much. - 1010. I fancy that Mr. Spencer claims as one of the advantages of his process that the hardness is dimi- nished –I do not know, we have never experienced much more hardness in the water after, than before filtration. 1011. You believe that if the water as now supplied to the town is harder than it used to be, that is in no way connected with your filtration ?–Just so. 1012. But that it is due to other causes over which you have no sort of control –That is my opinion. 1013. That is to say that you are not hardening the water —I do not believe that we are hardening the water at all. 1014. To what cause would you attribute what you conceive to be the additional hardness in the Calder of late years 2–I believe to the amount of chemicals used in manufactories, which are now turned into the river. 1015. The river is getting more impure in salts, which produce hardness, as well as more impure in other things?—Yes. - 1016. You will remember that when we were here two or three months ago we collected some samples of water from your reservoir –Yes, WAKE- FIELD. Mr. J. Sykes. 1 Oct. 1866. D 3 30 RIVERS-COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. wARE- FIELD. - Mr. J. Sykes. 17 Oct. 1866. Mr. F. Lumb. 1017. From the water which was running into the filtering beds, and the water which was leaving the filtering-beds?—Yes. - 1018. I suppose that the water which was running into the filtering-beds would be a mixture of the spring and the river water 2–Yes. - 1019. From the store reservoir –Yes. 1020. Would that be an average of the water which you are supplying –No, because then there had been a long drought, and the water always becomes harder in the Calder after a drought. 1021. Had you been pumping water from the Calder 3–Yes, previously to that, but we were then pumping from springs. 1022. You think that it was harder than the average –A little, but you may take that as about a fair average. 1023. Would the water which we collected on that occasion, represent water before it gets into Mr. Spencer's filters, and water after getting into his filters ?–Yes. . 1024. So that the amount of influence exerted by those filters might be taken as represented by the difference between those samples?–Yes. 1025. Cannot you tell us the price paid for the fil- tering material?—I do not think that I am in a posi- tion to do so. 1026. I see that there is the sum of 371. put down for filtering material?—That will be sand. 1027. In your opinion it is not such an expense as would prevent the process being applied to river waters generally —By no means. 1028. Would there be any difficulty in getting any quantity of the material for other towns?—I believe not. 1029. (Chairman.) Is there anything which you wish to add to your evidence?—I have another ana- lysis which was made by Mr. Spencer in September, 1865, of four samples of water, Mr. FREDERICK LUMB (Wakefield) examined. 1030. (Chairman.) Are you solicitor to the Water- works Company?—Yes. 1031. How long have you known the district of the Aire and Calder or Wakefield 2–I was born in Wake- field and I am now 60 years old. I obtained the first waterworks Act of Parliament. The prospectus was published in 1836, and the Act passed in 1837. 1032. You have known the river for a term of 50 years, so as to remember its condition ?—You may say so certainly, but I would rather say 40 years. 1033. Do you find the quality of the water diffe- rent now from what it was in your boyhood?—Very different indeed. - 1034. It is fouler?—Very much fouler. I remem- ber staking the river with pegs just below the Wake- field Mill Dam to prevent the people fishing with nets, that was since I was 25 years old. 1035. What does the pollution consist of, so far as your knowledge goes –It comes from a great dis- tance along the whole valley of the Calder. There is a quantity of filth poured in from Hebden Bridge, and from the Hebble which runs in at Halifax, and the Holmfirth drainage comes into our river. 1036. Do you know what the common law of England is with regard to pollution?—The common law so far as I understand, is that you have no right to pollute a river at all. 1037. Supposing that there are dye works, and we will say that your house is situated on the bank of the river, could you as an individual bring an action against the manufacturer for polluting the river ?—I have a right to do so, but the chances of recovery are not quite so certain. You know the case of the Bir- mingham Corporation, they were attempting to put their sewage through some water which ran into a gentleman's park; he tried the case with them, and he obtained a perpetual injunction against them. 1038. That was Mr. Adderley –Yes. - 1039. They had been polluting that water ever since Birmingham was there?–Quite so. 1040. The pollution had grown up with the growth of the place —No length of time will sanction a pol- lution. I think that the law is so laid down. 1041. Then Parliament, if it chooses to legislate for the future of this river, will have a very good prece- dent to go by ?—I think so. 1042. And there need not be any very great dif- ficulty in so framing the law, that it shall be put in force against persons who pollute a river or pollute streams ?–Parliament of course could enact a severe law, but the question is, the mechanical difficulty of how towns are to dispose of their sewage, and how people shall still continue their manufactories. 1043. But if you say that they shall not do it, or shall be fined to a certain extent if they do, you leave the remedy to them —Certainly. 1044. Is not such a thing known to the law as a constantly recurring fine as often as the nuisance is repeated 2–Yes, so far as the law is concerned, I should say that no length of time will sanction such a IlulSallCC. 1045. And the law has not been recently made, but it is the old standard law of England 2–Yes. 1046. Therefore the pollution of rivers has come into existence because there has been no person to put the common law in force –Certainly, people would not undertake the difficulty and expense of an action because manufacturers would combine, and they would form a body in contending with whom you would find a great deal of difficulty. 1047. Although the common law of England is in favour of preventing pollution, the machinery of the law enables wealthy people to carry a case from court to court, and from assizes to assizes —I suppose that that is so. 1048. With regard to the waterworks, have you paid attention to the condition of the water which is taken from the river ?–Yes, I was a director for some short time, and Mr. Sykes and myself were continu- ally there, and we saw that the impurity was increasing and often thought what was to be done. We tried once a common sand filter without this carbide. We found that it had no effect, except perhaps in straining out the fine mud, that no doubt made the water better and more pleasant to the sight, but did not get the organic matter out. 1049. Do you now get the organic matter out 2– We are told so. 1050. I suppose that the growing pollution of the river, and the deterioration of your water, would give you and the other directors serious anxieties –Yes, Mr. Sykes was the first person who hit upon this plan. Mr. Spencer delivered a lecture many years ago at Aberdeen, and Mr. Sykes having seen this plan in operation asked Mr. Spencer to communicate with him upon the subject, thinking that it would do good, and I believe that it has done good. 1051. Are you aware of the extent to which the treaty made many years ago, for the sale or proposed sale of your works, went 2–Yes, there was once a treaty many years ago in writing, it was delivered to the corporation, but it went no further. I think that then they were not a local board, but I am not quite certain. 1052. Do you see any prospect at the present time of a transfer of the works to the corporation ?—If any proper terms could be hit upon it might be so, but I believe that the view which the corporation took was, that the works were not worth anything, but as old iron, and that it would be necessary to go somewhere else for a better supply, of course the company could not take that view. 1053. The corporation considered that if they bought the works, they must abandon the present source and go to another source?—Yes, and therefore the terms fell through. The company were then - - . advised by Mr. Hawksley and Mr. RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 31 James Simpson, Mr. Hawksley said, “You have a reven"; and if you like to stick to it, you can make it better.” º 1054, Who laid the works out in the first instºn” —Mr. James Simpson was the consulting tº but Mr. Billinton, a local engineer here, 1 believe really laid them out. 1055. And then Mr. - —Yes, he was consulted for two years: Previously to these waterworks being established, there W*.*.*P* plication to Parliament which failed, to take the water from west Ardsley. It is very hard W*. and the scheme fell through. Mr. Simpso"; I believe, was employed against the promotº's of the bill, and that brought him into contact with this neighbour- hood, and Mr. Billinton and Mr. Simpson between them devised the present waterworks, for which an Act was obtained in 1837. 1056. Do you drink this water yourself?—I do, as it comes to me by the pipes of the town: - 1057. Have you ever heard any accusation against it of its producing disease ?—I never have: I believe that the holera was more prevalent in the asylum than it was in the prison, and the prison ºf that time Was supplied by the company, and the asylum was º, ið58. (Mr. Harrison.) In what year was that f – In the year of the tremendous outburst of cholera here, which drove the medical officer from his post of duty. - - 2 1059. (Chairman.) That was in 1848, was it not : Yes, I believe you will find it all detailed in a book upon the cholera by Dr. Wright who is now in prac- tice here. I always understood that the cholera could not be clearly traceable to the Water. - 1060. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you tellus how it was that the supply was taken from below Wakefield instead of from above the town —I cannot very well. I think that above the town objections were, made by some landed proprietors, and then, again, I think ſhºt the water below the town is much better. The Cal- der and Hebble Company would have objected in those days, and at that time, 30 years agº, it. was exceedingly difficult to get ever 89 good an - Hawksley was your engineer Act through Parliament. At that time you had not a select committee, you could get a committee to- gether any way which you liked. 1061. And whatever may be thought of the river as a source of supply now, it was then, in your opi- nion, unexceptionable – We thought so from the opinion of Mr. West, and all those who analysed it. 1062. (Chairman.) I suppose that Wakefield at that time had no sewers at all, or mere surface drains?— Yes, we had ; but no person ever thought of such gigantic schemes as are now being propounded. Of course engineering has brought that forward. Brad- ford was in a deplorable plight, and so was Leeds. Bradford had Leather's scheme from Many wells and they then had to go elsewhere, it not being sufficient for them. - 1063. (Mr. Harrison.) Since the formation of your works the river has been gradually more polluted of late years –Very much so. 1064. Therefore if your works have become injured in value from the pollution of the river, you do not think that you ought to be sufferers from it 2–We do not think that they have become injured, because we think that this filtration cures all. 1065. You have to go to the expense of that filtra- tion ?—Yes. 1066. And that is an increase of charge to your company, whoever may be the cause of it –Yes. Again, we had Mr. Ranger's scheme to draw water from the Dakin Brook. We did not see that that scheme could be accomplished for less than 180,000l. ; and the water was of the same degree of hardness. Whether Wakefield would like to spend that amount of money or not I cannot tell. I once fancied that we could have got water from Dewsbury, but they might have charged us 4d. a thousand gallons; and we could not then have sold water to the prison for 6d. a thou- sand gallons. Altogether the water supply is a diffi- cult question economically, as well as from an engineer- ing point of view. If the river could be freed from its pollution I do not think that we could have a better Water. The witness withdrew. Mr. STEPHEN RooDHouse (Wakefield) examined. 1067. (Chairman.) What are you ?--A shopkeeper. 1068. How long have you resided in Wakefield?— All my life. - - - - - 1069. To what points do you wish to speak in this Inquiry 2–It was suggested that I ought to come and speak before you on account of my having gradually watched the deterioration of the fish in the river. 1070. How long have you known the river ?—I have been a fisherman more or less ever since I could carry a rod. - ió71. How many years is that –Perhaps 30. I used to keep a little diary for the purpose of telling mewhat sort of flies I had found efficacious in previous years; and of course that showed what the fish were fond of, and what quantity I caught. 1072. Where did the fishing take place —From Horbury, which is about two miles above Wakefield to Stanley Ferry three miles below Wakefield. 1073. Will you give us the facts in any special year which you wish to take —I find that in 1852, so far as my fishing was concerned, the river was about at its best that I remember. I used to go in the morning and get back to business, and in the evening after business, and these are the entries: I find that on July the 5th I was up at 3 o'clock in the morning, and was off to the river fishing; and I caught 24 fish, which weighed 144 lbs. 1074. What were they – Principally chub and dace. 1075. Did you catch them with a fly?–Yes ; there were plenty of dace there at that time. The dace being the more delicate fish of the two, vanished first. On July the 8th I see that I went again in the evening, and I got 24 fish again, which weighed 13 lbs. 1076. Take the next year?—In 1853, on June the 8th, I had only 4 lbs. On the 18th of June I see that I had 63 lbs. ; on July the 9th I had 4 lbs. 1077. What is your next year 2–On May the 22nd, 1854, I took 5 lbs. After that I never seem to have got above 2 lbs. or 14 lb. all that year. I found that the stock of fish was going down, and that I could not catch them. 1078. Take the year following 2–In 1855, on June the 29th, I seem to have caught only 14 lb.; and on June the 12th, 14 lb. I can give the sum total of all the years. In 1852 I got 80% lbs. in about 12 times; in 1853 I got 48 lbs. in about a dozen times; in 1854 I got 38% lbs. in 15 times. In the next year, namely, 1855, I went very often, and did not get beyond 134 lbs. In 1856 I never got a fish. I went two or three times, but it was of no use. Not wishing to give it up without another trial, I went again in 1857. I went several times, when I knew that if there were any fish they should be in the streams, and I only succeeded on July the 16th, when I caught three chub. - 1079. Of what weight?—I do not seem to have put the weight. They must have been too small to weigh. A friend who was with me caught one, and I caught three. We went several times afterwards, and we never could find a fish in the streams. 1080. Have there never been any fish since then P —I never could get fish. There have been fish in since many times, because there are outlets into the river; for instance, there is the Barnesley Canal with plenty of fish in it; there is a beck running through Mr. Charles W. Worth's property with plenty of fish in it. WAKE- FIELD. Mr. F. Lumb. 17 Oct. 1866. Mr. S. Roodhouse, T) 4 32 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAKE- FIELD. Mr. S. Roodhouse. 17 Oct. 1866. Mr. W. Crutchley. - 1081. (Mr. Harrison.) Are those becks beyond any point of pollution?—They both come enter the river near Wakefield ; one just below the town, and the other just above the town. 1082. But there is no pollution above those becks themselves 2–No, they come into the river, and the fish with them ; the fish are in the river a day or two and die away. 1083. If they get down to polluted water they soon die 2–Yes. - 1084. Your observations give us a sort of scale or the gradual pollution of the river ?---Yes; I caught more fish before I kept this diary than I did afterwards. I kept it when I became a flydresser for my own guidance. 1085. Have you been accustomed to fish in the Company's reservoir –Yes; the directors were kind enough to give us tickets. We used to fish in the reservoir for small fish as bait for pike, and we then had plenty of fish. I know that the men were careful when they pumped; they did not pump if they could help it when the water was the thickest, and they only took the water; they did not take the mud, and the bottom of the reservoir of course would not be so foul as the river. I have once seen water pumped in when it was so foul that I had to run. I used to fish in the stream from the pump. I have fished in that stream many a time, and never noticed foul water come into the reservoir but once. I remember fishing in it that day, I tried twice, and I could not bear it ; and I know that I had to stop a good many times to cleanse my flies—they were full of cotton or wool. 1086. Have salmon been caught in the river below? —I remember one being caught when I was a very little boy; it was caught below Kirkthorp Dam, above the Newland estate. 1087. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you give us any further information ?—No ; my experience led me to this, that the fish disappeared from the upper part of the river the soonest; they disappeared from Wakefield first; there were a few left at Dirtcar, just above the . town, but they disappeared from there, and the latest to remain were the fish below the source whence the water was taken for the waterworks. 1088. How many miles above Wakefield do you speak of *-I mean that the fish disappeared three miles above sooner than they did three miles below Wakefield. 1089. I presume that in very many of the tributa- ries to the Calder there are fish now —Yes, in every one. I know that there are fish at Castleford. 1090. And that only receives water from the Aire and the Calder —The Holmfirth flood poisoned almost all the fish in the river, but after a little time fish came back again. 1091. Do you mean that there are fish now below the point where the Aire and Calder unite 2–Yes; there are a few yet even at Frost Dam, a little below Pen Bank. I do not know whether it is below the junction or not, but a few fish keep appearing there; they are very few, and when they come to the mouth of the tributaries they die away. 1092. (Professor Way.) Might not the water at Castleford be purer from the fact of its being at a dis- tance from a town 2–Yes. 1093. Below Leeds you never see any fish?–No. 1094. In your experience as a fisherman, what do you think is most injurious to fish, refuse of manu- factories or the excrements of the inhabitants 2–Our theory was that people began to use more chemicals in the manufactories and in the dyeworks, and so on, and that when they used merely the woods they did not kill the fish so much. 1095. If a town was not a manufacturing town but discharged its sewage into a river would the sewage be as injurious as a discharge from manufactories? —I decidedly do not think that it would be so injurious. It would be bad enough, but I think that the chemicals are WOl'Se. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM CRUTCHLEY (Wakefield) examined. 1096. (Chairman.) Were you formerly the borough surveyor to the Corporation of Wakefield —Yes. 1097. How long is it since you held the appoint- ment?—It is, I think, about a year and a half since I left the Corporation. 1098. Are you in business in Wakefield?—I am. 1099. How long did you hold the office of surveyor to the borough 2–About four years. 1100. Did you devise any system of sewers or drains at the time when you were in office —I did. I devised the present system under which they are working. The plans which were sent to the Home Secretary would make the system complete, that is to say, the drawings show where the intended sewage and filtration tanks might be made to enter the river, arrangements were left in such a state that at any time it would be possible to put in a well, and pump up the sewage upon land. There is land contiguous, as the Mayor has said, very well adapted for distribu- tion of sewage. 1101. Then the system laid before the Local Board to which they granted sanction, provided for deposit- ing tanks, and ultimately for distribution of the sewage upon land *-Yes, that was the intention, but it was not shown upon the present plans. 1102. Still the question was named as being one which the Corporation might entertain —Nothing was mentioned about the disposal of the sewage, but the plans were designed with that view. 1103. The general Board no doubt had all those facts communicated to them when they granted their sanction ?–Yes; I have no hesitation in saying that I think they would not have approved of the plans without something of that sort. 1104. Do you know who approved of the plans?—I forget ; they had the seal on them when they came down. - 1105. Had you any inquiry here upon the plans? —No ; there was a system devised by Mr. Ranger or Mr. Morgan. The plans are very similar in some respects, but there is one material alteration, and that is, that one of my predecessors of the name of Tar- botton, who is now surveyor at Nottingham, in putting in the sewer placed the outfall at a considerably lower level than Mr. Ranger had put his in. Now the policy of that is questionable, for this reason, in filtra- tion you always require a greater amount of head, if the river is below its ordinary flow there will not be that head. With the present outfall there will be only about a foot between it, and the ordinary summer flow of the river. 1106. How much would the floods of the river rise above –In some cases 3 or 4 feet, or more occa- sionally. - 1107. So that at that time the outfall would be choked by the rising of the flood?—Yes. - 1108. And the works could not be used ?–Yes; there would have to be back valves to prevent the river water coming in. Under the arrangement as it is carried out, there always will be a danger of that water from the flooded river. Had this outfall sewer been put in at the depth shown on Mr. Ranger's plan, there would at least have been 2 feet more difference between the outfall and the summer level of the river. 1109. Would it have been above or below 2–It would have been above the river, but at the same time it led to other difficulties, for instance, the difficulty of getting through Ing's beck, it would have contracted there, and in addition to that it would somewhat have destroyed the fall of one of the main sewers which is now going up Ing's Road, and Thorne's Lane. 1110. Did you carry out much house drainage during the time that you were surveyor –No, I did a little, but I impressed upon the Board the necessity RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 33 of carrying out private drainage at the same time as they were carrying out the mains. I thought it of the utmost importance that the private drainage should be carried on under the superintendence and management of the borough surveyor. 1111. And the Board did not take any steps ?— They did not. 1il2. Have they hitherto allowed private parties to make their own drains —Yes, unfortunately, and thus the Board would have little control over the private drainage. 1113. When private parties open a communication from their drains with the sewer do they do so under the supervision of the surveyor, or independently — It is expected that it shall be done under the super- vision of the surveyor, but they cover it up so soon that the surveyor would not like to incur the odium of having it opened up again. 1114. What salary were you paid –At first 150l., and afterwards 200l. 1115. (To Mr. Morgan.) What does your present surveyor get 2—200l. 1116. Is he allowed to do any other business —He is not. 1117. Do you allow him an assistant of any sort in the office 2–There is a clerk in the office. 1118. Do you pay the salary of that clerk —Yes; and in addition there is a Clerk of the Works—a practical man. 1119. Do you pay his wages —Yes. 1120. What do you give him 3–120l. a year. 1121. And what do you give the office assistant — 11. a week. (Mr. Crutchley.) I had neither of those, I had to do both in and out-door work myself. 1122. What are you doing now 2–I am practising as an architect and surveyor. 1123. Are you acquainted with the kind of manu- factures carried on here 3–Yes, in part, but I am not prepared to give evidence upon that subject. Before I was borough surveyor here I was five years on the Aire and Calder Navigation as principal assistant engineer. - 1124. When you have been up and down the dis- trict, have you noticed that matters have been thrown into the river which had better be kept out?—Yes. 1125. Solid matters of every sort?—Yes, in fact every kind of material is thrown in. 1126. Have you ever seen foundation material thrown in 2–No. 1127. Or ashes?—No. 1128. Or building material?—No, generally a good deal of ashes fall in. 1129. But you have not seen an actual tip thrown in 2–No, 1130. Have you ever been upon the river above Huddersfield 2–No, but I have known the present river 10 or twelve years, and I can speak to its being considerably worse now than it was 10 or twelve years ago. In fact the manufactures of Dewsbury are extending so rapidly that you can perceive the difference within the last few years. 1131. The river is getting more polluted 2–Yes. 1132. Have you at all acquainted yourself with the The witness Mr. WILLIAM STATTER 1152. (Chairman.) Are you a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons and in practice in Wakefield – Yes. 1153. Have you been in Wakefield for any length of time 2—I was born here, and have lived all my life here. 1154. Do you know the Wakefield Waterworks — I am the chairman of the Wakefield Waterworks. 1155. Then of course you know the source of the water—the spring water and the river water —Yes. 1156. Have you ever at any time considered the condition of the river from which you were getting 17159.-2, principle of sewage irrigation ?–Yes. I have studied it, but I have never seen it carried out upon any large scale. 1133. Have you seen it carried out on any scale at all ?—Yes. I have carried out irrigation works. 1134. Where 2–At Leek. • 1135. What is the population there?–15,000 or 16,000. 1136. What is the land?—Principally low meadow land. 1137. How many acres are there under irrigation there 2–About 60 or 70 acres. 1138. Do they get any benefit from the irrigation? —No, it is not well carried out. 1139. Has Leek been properly sewered ?–Yes. believe that it has been sewered very well. 1140. Have you seen any sediment works carried "Sfor taking the deposit, or sediment out of sewage? - IN O. 1141. Did you make the plans upon which the sanc- tion was given for the 12,000l. —Yes. 1142. When you made those plans did you make provision for preventing the sediment getting into the river?—Yes. I designed them principally for up- ward filtration. I had a through channel for the sewage into which I could place sluices, so that I could turn the sewage into duplicate tanks. I took one part of the sewage and passed it over a cill and then through a rough clinker medium, and again over another cill and through a finer clinker medium to the overflow. 1143. Had you had any opportunity of seeing how that would work in practice?—No. Some persons have recommended the upward filtration, and the ver- tical filtration, but I have never seen the downward filtration recommended. 1144. Do you know that they spent 5,000l. for the upward system of filtration ?—Yes. 1145. And that they have had to abandon it?— Yes. 1146. And that filtration in regard to sewage can- not be accomplished?—I am not aware of that ; much will depend upon the subsiding tanks. 1147. Do you know anything of the land situated on either side of the river below Wakefield 2-Yes. 1148. Do you think that there is any land to which sewage could be beneficially applied ?–Yes, but the sewage would have to be raised by steam power. There is a large area of land, and it lies very nicely for irrigation supposing the sewage to be so raised. 1149. (Mr. Harrison.) Whilst you were assistant surveyor upon the Aire and Calder was it your duty to look after the cleansing of the river in any way ?— No ; such men as the one who has given evidence to- day were principally instructed in those things, I had nothing to do with them. 1150. (Chairman.) Were you an assistant in the office —Both in and out. About 10 or 11 years ago I took sections of the river throughout the full length. 1151. Do you know whether the bed of the river is being silted up —I cannot speak to that, I can speak to there being black matter on the sides of the banks, but the water was much clearer at that time than it is now. I withdrew. (Wakefield) examined. your water f.-It is a thing which we have often had to consider, and very seriously too. 1157. When you commenced your operations, I assume that the river was a very pure river, as com- pared to what it is at present —Yes, it is nearly 30 years since the works were commenced. 1158. Do you think that if you had no works there you would place them where they are now, if you had to begin again –I can hardly say; we should be puzzled where to go for water if we had to begin de novo, without going to a great distance and to a great expense, E WAKE- FIELD. Mr. W. Crutchley, 17 Oct. 1866. Mr. W. Statter. 34 RIVERS COMMISSION:--MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAKE- FIELD. Mr. W. Statter. 17 Oct. 1866. 1159. Have you paid much attention to the mode of filtering 2–Yes. - 1160. Have you paid sufficient attention to be able to give an opinion whether the improvement in that respect has been beneficial in the way of health or otherwise –I believe that the water now is very good water. It is purified by Spencer's process; that process, we believe removes, if not all, at least the greater portion of the organic matter, which is a great desideratum in our water. Unless we had met with Spencer's process I do not know what we should have done. I believe that we should have had to try to get water from some other source; but with this process we are now able to turn out the water very good. 1161. It comes out bright —Bright and clear. 1162. And free from smell?–And free from smell or from any objectionable taste. - 1163. I believe that you have had analyses made of it 2–Yes. - 1164. And I suppose that you have seen those analyses which have been put in by Mr. Sykes this morning 2–Yes. 1165. There have been some attempts to negotiate a sale between the Corporation and yourselves, have there not ?–Yes, twice, I think, we have attempted to agree. 1166. Do you think that it would be advisable for the corporation to become possessed of the works, or otherwise?—I have always expressed the opinion that it is desirable for the Corporation to possess the waterworks in any and every town. I think that for sanitary purposes the water ought to be in their possession ; that is an opinion which I have expressed before, and which I still hold. 1167. Therefore, if reasonable terms could be come to between yourselves and the Corporation, you per- sonally would not object to the transfer?—Certainly not. 1168. And then I assume that the Corporation or the inhabitants, if they wished for an altered supply might obtain it —Just so. 1169. Have you heard of any schemes in the district for bringing in water from distant sources —I have not. 1170. You have heard of Mr. Dale's scheme, I sup- pose, from Cumberland 2–Everybody, I think, has heard of Mr. Dale's scheme ; but it seemed to me so impracticable, that I never gave it much consideration. 1171. It does not seem to give you much uneasiness with regard to any rivalry which it may bring against your works?–Certainly not. 1172. What are the ordinary types of disease which you find most prevalent in Wakefield –Fever, I think, is one of the most ordinary. 1173. Fever of what class?—Typhoid. 1174. In your opinion what does typhoid fever spring from ?—I think from dirt as much as from anything. 1175. Dirt in the atmosphere, or in the habits 2– Uncleanly habits and ill-ventilated houses. 1176. And bad feeding or low feeding 2–Low feeding. - 1177. Have you studied the principle of the carbide which is used for filtering the water 2–Yes, I have paid a good deal of attention to it. 1178. What is your opinion of its mode of action ? —I believe that it acts in this way: the water in passing through the carbide is burnt; the organic matter is burnt by a sort of process of combustion; it is decomposed by receiving a larger portion of oxy- gen, which burns it : that is the most expressive term which I can use. And we find that when the filters have been used for a week or ten days, they require to stand for a little while, and it appears as if the car- bide so obtains back again from the atmosphere the excess of oxygen which it had parted with before. That seems to me to be some explanation of its mode of action. - 1179. One can imagine that the carbide has a great capacity for oxygen in its pores —Yes. 1180. And that it has a capacity for giving that out § any animal and vegetable matter in the water – eS. 1181. And that there must be an interval of idle. ness for the carbide to recover itself?–Yes. I do not think that that is exactly the way in which Mr. Spencer himself explains its modus operandi. He talks about its polarizing the water. I do not know exactly what that means. However, whatever may be the theoretical explanation of the process, there can be no doubt of its practical effect. We see the water going in black and dirty, and coming out freed from organic impurities. 1182. The water from the river I suppose differs very considerably at different times?–Yes, after a fresh of course it is better, after a long drought it is very bad. - 1183. Mr. Sykes has told us that it was his en- deavour to manage to pump water from the river at the time when it was least effected by the sources of pollution—that is to say during a fresh –Those are the orders given to the man in charge of the works, namely, to take the water after a fresh. 1184. Still you would hardly think that that would bring two reservoirs full to the same state, the water would differ from time to time 2–No doubt there would be a difference. - - 1185. Supposing that the water was particularly pure for the water of the Calder at any time then this carbide would have less to do —Certainly. 1186. This carbide would not take out the whole of the organic matter —No, but I believe that it very nearly takes it out, and what is left is very small. 1187. If I took samples of this water at one time, and found no great difference between the water which passed on to the filters, and the water which passed off, but that they were both comparatively very free from organic matter, that would be no proof that the material was not capable of purifying the water when it was impure ?—No, it would simply mean that on that particular occasion there was less for the carbide to do. 1188. You, I suppose, saw the water when it was filtered through sand three years ago?—Yes. 1189. Was the water colourless after passing through the sand 2–It was improved a good deal, but it was not as it has been since we have employed this process. The sand merely takes out what is held in mechanical suspension ; it has no chemical effect. 1190. Judging as a mere matter of observation without chemistry, you say that when the water was filtered through sand it was still coloured 2–It wa still slightly coloured. 1191. And after its filtration through the carbide its colour entirely ceased ?–Yes. - 1192. That in itself of course indicates an advan- tage 2–Unquestionably. 1193. How long in practice is the carbide exposed to the air 2–It varies. The surface of the sand itself is scraped once a week and of course during that process the water drains off and the air gets to the carbide. 1194. Before this process was adopted had you any reason to think that the water was injurious to the health of people who drank it 2–I do not know the statistics—I have not them in my mind at present, and therefore I can hardly answer that question. 1195. (Mr. Harrison.) If I understand you rightly you say that whatever be the process you are clear in your own mind that there is a beneficial result from passing the water through this carbide —Undoubt- edly. #96. What are the means which you have taken to determine that 2–Analysis. 1197. Can you give us an analysis of the water before it went through the carbide filtering medium, and afterwards?—No, I think that we have not taken an analysis before, we have had the water analysed after the process. 1198. How can you show us that any improvement has taken place from the water passing through the carbide if you have taken no analysis of the water RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 35 before passing through the carbide — We, cannot give it to you in figures, but there is a very clear one from appearance—the result of a comparison of the two waters is very marked. - 1199. Would you as a medical man think that the mere appearance of the water was a sufficient indica- tion of its purity ?–No, certainly not. 1200. Would you say that from the appearance of the water coming out, compared with the water gºing in and not appearing pure, you can from mer. sight compare the two and gain a definite idea of their purity ?–No, not from mere sight, but we know without sight that the sewage of this town and of many towns is poured into this water, and that the impurities of manufactures are likewise poured into it, and we know that the water does and must contain a large quantity of impurities—the exact amount, not having had the water analysed, we are unable to give you—we also know from analysis that after it has passed through this process those matters, whatever they may be, are absent: - 1201. Do you consider that your carbide process improves the water to that extent that sewage matter passed into the river above Wakefield is altered and i.ecomes non-mischievous?—I believe that the organic matter or sewage which is poured into the river is de- composed by this process and ceases to be mischievous. 1302. Do you not think that before you can expect us to take that as proved it would be well to have some analysis of the water before it gets in to the filter, and after it comes out?–It would be very desirable, and then you would have the exact quan- tities in figures; that could be done. 1203. You tell us that in passing through the car- bide the organic matter is oxydized?–Yes. - 1204. But we have nothing to show what quantity of organic matter goes in to be oxydized ?–No, only that we know that it is considerable. My theoretical explanation may not be the correct one, but we only know by having water analyzed afterwards that the organic matter is absent. - 1205. (Professor Way.) The water of the River Calder, if not affected by manufactories and towns, would, I suppose, be a good water ?—Yes, it is a very good water. - - 1206. With a small quantity of solid contents of any sort 2—Yes, comparatively small. 1207. Then I suppose it would depend very greatly upon the materials thrown into it and the opportunity of subsidence, and so on, how much matter of an in- jurious character was dissolved in the water ?–Cer- tainly. - 1208. And that character would vary from time to time 2—Yes. 1209. Have you made any observation upon the hardness of the water at the present time as com- pared with its hardness three or four years ago?–I think that it is about 9 degrees of hardness by Dr. Clarke's scale. I am not quite sure whether it was either less or more some time ago. 1210. You do not think that the hardness varies much 2–I think not much, except in flood time and then of course it must vary. 1211. Do you mean the river itself?–Yes. 1212. As I understand you, you take the water at flood time, so that it is just possible that your storage reservoir may contain water of a much less degree of hardness at times —At times it may. We take it at flood time when there is a flood. When we have a three months' drought as we have had during the present year, then of course we must take it as it is. 1213. That was before the hay harvest ?–Yes. 1214. It was a particularly dry time 2–Yes. 1215. A good deal of rain fell in February and in the beginning of March, and after that we had a very dry time till the beginning of June 2–Yes, or up to July. #6. Do you think that 8 degrees of hardness is the natural hardness of the River Calder 2–That I can scarcely say, as we have not analyzed very far back. 1217. You do not believe that the process of Mr. Spencer to which the water is subjected increases the hardness of the water materially 2–I do not think that it does. 1218. I think that I am right in saying that he claims that it diminishes the hardness 2–I think that he does. 1219. (Chairman.) Have you anything further to add –Perhaps I might throw out a suggestion. If this process of Mr. Spencer's is as good as to us it appears to be, might not it be applied upon a larger scale along the whole course of the river ? If we can purify the water of the Calder at Wakefield, could not the same process be applied to the dirty water sent into the river from manufactories 2 Could not it be required that the manufacturer should have a tank of this material through which to pass his dirty water 2 - 1220. Then he must have a settling reservoir, as you have?—Yes. 1221. And filtering beds –Yes, two filtering beds, so that one could recruit itself whilst the other was in use. I do not think that the process would be an ex- pensive one, and I think that it is quite feasible to adopt something of that sort, and if it was done I think that you would solve the problem of purifying the river without interfering with the manufactories, The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 11 o'clock. Wakefield, Thursday, 18th October 1866. PRESENT : ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THoRNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Professor John THOMAS WAY. Mr. GEORGE SMITH (Wakefield) examined. 1222. (Chairman.) What are you?—I am captain of one of the dredgers. 1223. Under the Aire and Calder Navigation Com- any ?—Yes. 1224. How long have you been employed under the Aire and Calder Navigation Company –Nearly 30 years altogether ; I have been 23 years with dredgers, one and another. 1225. Of what power is your dredger boat —The engine is about 9-horse power. 1226. What quantity of material can you dredge up in an hour?—A weight of 100 tons. We can dredge 50 tons in half an hour. 1227. In what part of the navigation are you principally engaged –For the biggest part of my time I am between Leeds and Goole, and up to Wakefield. 1228. That is below Leeds 2—Yes. In the last two years I have been for the biggest part of my time above Wakefield. 1229. On the navigation ?–On the navigation. 1230. Not on the river ?–On the river and canals together. 1231. In what state do you find the river and canals now as compared with what they were when you WAKE- FIELD. M. W. Statter. 17 Oct. 1866. -- Mr. G. Smith. 18 Oct. 1866. E 2 36 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAKE- FIELR). - Mr. G. Smith. 18 Oct. 1866. began 23 years ago?—They are in a far worse state at present than they were 23 years ago. 1232. Have you to lift more material now than you did 23 years ago?—We used to work, the dredger regularly 5 or 6 months, and then to lie by having nothing to do, but now we have continually to dredge. 1233. Are you entirely in charge of your boat, or are you working under any other person —I have the entire charge of it. 1234. Are you under Mr. William Holmes —No. 1235. Then Mr. Holmes is captain of No. 1 —Yes. 1236. And you are captain of No. 2 –Yes. 1237. How many men have you under you ?–I have four on the dredger. 1238. And how many in your lighters?—I have 19 altogether when I am full-handed, but we are two short ; 20 men including myself is the complement. 1239. How many lighters have you ?–Five. 1240. What do they carry —About 50 tons each. 1241. What depth of water do they draw 2–4 ft., and 3 ft. 9 inches. 1242. What does your dredger draw -—About 4 ft. 1243. To what depth do you lower your buckets —About 9 ft. ; 9 ft. 6 in. is a full depth. 1244. In your dredging operations have you seen any carcases of dead animals floating past you ?–I saw one this morning floating by the dredger, and I see them regularly. I saw one yesterday floating by, and in my time I should think that I have seen scores of dogs and cats, and even pigs and sheep. 1245. Floating on the surface of the water –Yes. 1246. In what condition is the stuff which comes out of the river now, as compared with what it was formerly, as regards smell?—It sometimes smells very badly, so that you can hardly abide near it ; that is owing to the dye stuff, and the sewage from the main sewers which runs into the river. 1247. And refuse from chemical works?—Yes, and chemical works too. . " 1248. Do you sell the material which you dredge —Sometimes; when we can we sell it for grass land, but we cannot sell much of it now. 1249. Do you dredge any gravel or sand which is worth anything 2—Yes, we have sold some at different times, but the river has now got so full of rubbish that we can scarcely dredge any sand ; it is full of engine ashes and refuse of all sorts. The biggest part of our dredgings now in the river is engine ashes and dyewood. 1250. Spent logwood —Yes. 1251. Do you find any bark refuse ; any oak bark? —Sometimes a little, but we have a deal of dyewood —logwood which has come away from the dyeworks. 1252. Do you know whether the Aire and Calder Company have ever attempted to stop the pouring of this refuse into the river ?—I believe that they have been about stopping it, but I do not know whether they have tried or it not. 1253. Do you every year have more to dredge for the purpose of keeping the river in order –Yes, we have had more every year ; the river has been getting worse these 23 years. 1254. Do boats which are navigating the canal and the river ever stick upon the banks which you have to dredge away?—Yes, even last summer above Wakefield. 1255. Have the men had to load the boats, or lighten them, in order to get them off?–Yes, they lighten some, and some of the boats stop till the water rises and they can float off. 1256. Do you think the floods are greater now than they were, or less —I think that they are rather less on the average than they were 20 years ago. 1257. To what height will a flood rise from low water to the highest flood which you have known 2–1 do not think that it rises much above 6 ft. now in the regular way ; it might sometimes get as high as 7 ft., but I think it has not done so lately. 1258. Is a great deal of material washed in from the sides of the banks –A little washes in from the sides of the banks. - 1259, Do the banks slip more at any particular part than at another ?—At some parts they slip in and a little of the soil washes into the river. 1260. Then you have to dredge that out 2–Yes, the material washes into the sand. 1261. Do you at all repair the banks, or have the Aire and Calder Company any men who repair the banks —Yes; the bank is repaired, and when it slips in stone is put to prevent the slipping. 1262. Do the men put piling as well?—Yes, piling if required—but rubble stone if it will do. 1263. Do you think that you have less water in dry weather than you used to have –I cannot speak to that point, but last summer and the previous summer we had less water than I ever knew since I belonged to the company ; in 1865 the river was lower than I ever recollect it. 1264. After these heavy floods do you find the bed of the river in a better or in a worse condition than it was before ?—When a flood comes it clears the bank out, but a bank will form there again exactly in the same way. 1265. Have you to go there and dredge again — Yes. 1266. And that process goes on continuously — Yes. 1267. If you did not dredge what would become of the river ?–It would lay up, so that the boats could not go at all; the bed of it would rise up out of the Water. 1268. And there could not be any navigation ?— There could not be any. 1269. I suppose that if the floods were prevented this inequality would not take place to so great an extent, you could navigate longer ?—Yes, but when there are no floods at all the matter keeps accu- mulating. 1270. If any person told you that the floods im- proved the river, what would you say to him —I should say that they did not do so, but that they were an injury. In some places where the river is rather narrow floods sluice it out the waterway a little, but in wide places the refuse all settles—what comes from the dyeworks and refuse of all kinds; ashes are the worst thing, and the dyewood and log- wood. 1271. Do you know at what part of the navigation or river ashes are mostly thrown in 2–Before there were mills up above Wakefield the water came down quite bright and clear; we could use it on board the dredger for tea water, but it is now full of all sorts of rubbish, and we cannot use it at all; it is not fit for use. 1272. Do you find that the water acts at all upon the iron work of the dredger boat, so as to rust it? —No ; I believe that the biggest part of what comes into the river comes from mills. 1273. Is there any of the material which affects the shoes of the men when they are working among it —Yes, the material from the chemical works. 1274. And does not that chemical refuse affect the iron and the timber –At Leeds, when we have been working alongside chemical works, I have seen the stuff stick to the boat's side. 1275. What effect has the refuse from chemical works upon the men's shoes or boots?—It destroys them. 1276. It rots them 2–Yes, or burns them, or some- thing like that. 1277. Were there any fish in the river when you first came upon it —This river and the other were full of fish, but you cannot now see any ; the water has killed them. 1278. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you send in a regular return every day or every week of the quantity of stuff which you dredge –I send down every week a statement of the quantity which we dredge. 1279. And you have done so all the years that you have been the captain of the boat —Yes. 1280. So that from the office at Leeds we could get a return showing the gradual accumulation of RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 37 stuff in the river ?—Yes, from the commencement, and I do not doubt that you will find it about three times as much now as it was at the commencement. 1281. (Chairman.) Have you any complaints made, or do you hear any complaints from the landholders or persons living on the sides of the river as to the condition in which the water is now * – I do not know that I have had any complaints. 1282. Have you had any complaints that the cattle would not drink the water –Yes, I have heard that: that it was not fit for them. - 1283. Do you ever see them drinking it?—I have seen them drink it but not lately. I have not been lately where there have been any cattle by the river. 1284. When you are dredging in the summer below Leeds, do you ever see persons bathing in the water —Yes, I have seen them many times. 1285. In the dirty water —-Yes. 1286. (Mr. Harrison.) Do they get clean by bath- ing in it —I cannot tell you whether they do or not, but it really is not fit to wash in. I have had to wash myself in it when I could not get any other water, but it is not fit. - 1287. (Professor Way.) Whether it washes a per- son cleaner depends, I suppose, upon how dirty the person is 2–It would not wash any person clean. 1288. (Chairman.) Do your men ever bathe in the water 2—No, and I should not like to bathe in it. 1289. (Mr. Harrison.) Is dredging ever carried on above Leeds and above Wakefield 2–Yes, it has been carried on this summer. 1290. Above Leeds and above Wakefield too?— Yes. 1291. Who manages that ?—I dredged at Thorne's Lane, near here, this summer. 1292. How near with your dredge can you go?–I have been up to Mirfield. 1293. How far is that above Wakefield 2–Eleven miles. 1294. Do you find that you dredge much from that part of the river ?—Yes, at Greenwood Pond I have dredged hundreds of tons, and the river was laid up again with logwood and engine ashes ; it is so bad that they cannot get the boats near to it at present, although the boats draw only four feet. 1295. Is there any other boat than yours ?—Yes, there is a small one ; the men first went with that small boat and dredged it, and I have since dredged it; that part has been dredged four times that I know of in these two years, and how many other times I do not know ; I have dredged it three times and I know that the other dredger has dredged it once. 1296. Do you dredge above Leeds as well?—I have not been at Leeds these two years. No. 1 dredger has been there this summer. 1297. (Chairman.) When dead carcases come floating down, do you take them out of the water?— We have taken some out and buried them. 1298. Why did you take them out, was it because they annoyed you ?–To get them out of the water. 1299. Were you told to take them out —No. 1300. Have you any special order from the office to take them out when you see them —No. 1301. Then you simply took them out because they came in your way, and you thought it better to take them away ?—Yes. 1302. Supposing that a special order came down to take every one of them out and bury them, would it be much for you to do —No. 1303. Where do you deposit the material which you have dredged –We wheel it on to the banks and we put it over the weir; there is a wide place there and some stone work, and we put it to the back of the stone. 1304. You narrow the river at those points —Yes, so that it will not lay up any more. 1305. What is the longest distance which you take the material by towing it 2–We take some half a mile, and some a mile, and some three or four miles. 1306. Have you a little steamer, or do you do the work by horses?—By horses. Y 1307. And you discharge the material by hand?— 628. 1308. Is payment made by day wages, or by measurement —By measurement. - 1309. How much a yard do you get for it?–4d. 1310. Is a yard considered a ton –Some of it will weigh above a ton, it depends upon what it is ; some of the stuff is very light and some very heavy. 1311. Then you measure it, and do not take the weight —No, we estimate it only by measurement; sometimes the price is 4d. a yard, and in others it is less, namely 3d. a yard, it depends upon the distance that the material has to be wheeled. 1312. What does it cost a yard to dredge it and lift it?—There are five of us, viz., four men, three at 3s., and one at 3s. 4d. a day, and I have 3s. 6d. 1313. How much coal does it take 2–We can work with about 1 tons or 2 tons in a week. 1314. At what particular points do you find the most ashes to dredge out?—In wide parts of the river; there is Thorne's Lane. 1315. Where is Thorne's Lane —At the upper side of Wakefield Dam. 1316. Opposite whose premises is it?—Mr. Holds- worth's and Mr. Mackie's corn warehouse. 1317. (Mr. Harrison.) The places where you have this large quantity of ashes and different things to dredge out of the river have nothing to do with the manufactures near the river ?–No. 1318. They are formed by the shape of the river? —Yes. 1319. You always find the deposits in the same place —Yes. 1320. They may have come down for miles from above?—Yes. 1321. You do not necessarily ascribe them to the manufacturers in the immediate neighbourhood —No. 1322. (Chairman.) The ashes may have come down 10 or 12 miles?—Yes. 1323. (Professor Way.) In a flood?—Yes. 1324. (Mr. Harrison.) Are there any places on the river where you have observed large quantities of ashes and dirt and refuse tipped into the river to be washed away?—I have seen ashes tipped in at some dyeworks half a mile below Horbury Bridge. 1325. (Chairman.) From the dyeworks furnace?— Yes, down the bank. 1326. Have you power to stop persons from doing so?—The bank-walker up there had orders to discharge all persons who tipped in the ashes. 1327. How could he discharge them?—He was the head man over that navigation ; he was the foreman of the men who repaired the banks and the towing- paths, and he had to look to see that no damage was done to the navigation. 1328. How could he interfere with the men who were working for the dyer —He could go to the dye- works and charge them not to tip into the river. 1329. He could tell them not to do it?—Yes. 1330. He could not go and turn off the man from the dyeworks?–No. 1331. He could only tell them not to tip in any more ashes 2–Yes. 1332. Would they pay any attention to him?—I cannot say. 1333. Do you not think that they would do it again when he turned his back?—I do not doubt that they would if they had a chance. 1334. Did you ever hear of their being summoned before the magistrates for doing it?—No. A mile and a half or two miles below Horbury Bridge, at Lupsett Pond, that is above Wakefield, there a shoal rises up which principally consists of ashes and dye- wood which has been washed down, causing boats to ground for 24 hours at a time; this never rose up before the last five or six years. WAKE- FIELD. Mr. G. Smith. 18 Oct. 1866. The witness withdrew. E 3 38 Rivers commission :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WAKE- FIELD. Mr. J. Barker. 18 Oct. 1866. Mr. Joseph BARKER, of the firm of R. H. Barker and Co., Thorne's Mill, Wakefield, examined. 1335. (Chairman.) Are you in business in Wake- field as a worsted manufacturer —I am. 1336. Your works are situated on the edge of the river ?—Yes. 1337. Do you use much of the water –We use no other water than that from the river. 1338. For what length of time have you had your works there?–30 years. 1339. In what condition is the river as compared with what it was when you commenced?—Very dirty indeed; it is very bad now. 1340. Worse than it was formerly?—Much. 1341. Is it at all prejudicial to your manufactures 2 —It is very injurious to our working our engine; it is very detrimental to the work. 1342. Do you use the water for washing or dyeing? —For both. 1343. Do you find it worse for washing and dyeing than formerly?—Much worse. 1344. Are you put to any inconvenience by this foul condition of the water?—Yes, decidedly so. We have a difficulty in getting our colours. We are obliged to do the best we can, but we do not succeed so well in our colours in dyeing as we used to do. 1345. Have you had to cease dyeing any special colours in consequence of the condition of the water? —Yes, we do not dye some colours now ; we send the goods to Halifax to be dyed there. We should dye those colours if our water was more pure. 1346. What colours are those 2–More especially magenta colours and the scarlets. We do dye the scarlets in the raw kind of goods, but the better kinds we send to Halifax. It is the same with any particu- lar colour. - 1347. Where do the Halifax dyers get their water from ?—I do not know. We are not dyers; we merely dye for ourselves. We are worsted manufacturers, we are not special dyers. 1348. Do you use any of the waterworks water for your washing or dyeing purposes?—No ; it is rather expensive for one thing, and it is at some distance ; it does not come quite so far as we are. 1349. Do you use engine power ?—Yes. 1350. What do you do with the ashes?—We stow them away on the banks of the river, and cart them away wherever we can find a place for them. 1351. Do any of them get into the river ?–No, we send nothing into the river but the refuse from scour- ing wool and worsted. We do not turn any dye stuff of any kind into the river, spent woods or anything of that sort. 1352. Have you considered whether it would be an advantage to have the river put under some jurisdiction, so that persons above you should be compelled to abuse the water less than they do now?—It would be very desirable indeed for all parties if some plan could be adopted to prevent the river being fouled as it is now fouled. - 1353. I presume that you would much rather have clean than dirty water?—Yes. 1354. And I suppose that it would be the same with other persons similarly situated to yourself —No doubt of it. 1355. Is there any form of refuse from your works in the shape of waste wool material, or any other form of refuse which you now pass into the river ?—After washing, the soapsuds and things of that sort go into the river, but that is all. No solid substance goes away ; the refuse is all in a liquid state. 1356. What weight of soap do you use in a month or a year —Four tons per month. 1357. Have you your soapsuds chemically treated 2 —Yes, but only a part of them. We have not so treated the water which has washed the wool, but the water in which we wash our worsted is treated in that way. 1358. The wash-water is sold 2–A part of it is sold to Messrs. Teall and Company, the other part has so much water that it is not worth his while to take the greasy matter from it. 1359. And it goes into the river ?–It goes into the river altogether. 1360. Do you use any indigo 2–Yes. 1361. Is any of your waste indigo recovered 2– No; it is run off into the river when the vat is spent and finished. - 1362. Are you aware that Messrs. Teall and Com- pany are working a patent for the recovery of waste indigo 2–I was not aware of it. 1363. What weight of indigo do you use in a year? —About 500 or 600 lbs. weight a month. 1364. And the whole of that is wasted so far as the worsted does not take it up 7–Yes, perhaps we use more indigo than that. - 1365. Have you any idea what weight out of th 500 lbs. a month is taken up by the worsted –I have not. 1366. Do you think that you get 100 lbs. a month in the worsted 2–I should think not. 1367. Or 50lbs. 2–I do not know. - 1368. But I suppose you are aware that the worsted only takes up a very small proportion of the weight of indigo?—I should say so. 1369. And a large per-centage goes away from you? Yes. 1370. If that could be recovered cheaply you would not object to recover it —I should not. But Messrs. Teall and Company could not get the indigo from our goods at all. 1371. (Professor Way.) Then you do not wash your indigo-dyed goods?—Yes, we wash them, but the worsted manufacture is a different process alto- gether from that which is adopted with cloth; worsted does not absorb the quantity of indigo at all which cloth would. 1372. (Chairman.) What number of persons, in- cluding men, women, and children, do you employ upon your works —About 200 altogether. 1373. Have you open privies for them, or water- closets?—Waterclosets. - 1374. Do they drain into the river ?—Yes. 1375. Have you tried any system of sewage utiliza- tion, by working a tank —No ; we had the open privies, but the smell was so bad that we adopted the watercloset system. 1376. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you give us the quan- tity of water which you use in the different processes of cleansing the wool —No. 1377. Or about the quantity ?–90,000 to 100,000 gallons per day. 1378. (Chairman.) Is it pumped by steam power? —Yes. 1379. Do you know the size of your pump —No. We have no scarcity of water; we have plenty of Water. 1380. Do you know whether the river has altered as regards the volume of water since you knew it— have you less water in dry weather ?—I think that we have less water in dry weather. 1381. And more in floods, or less in floods —About the same quantity in floods; we have often floods in a Wet SeaSOn. 1382. What height is the base of your works above the summer level of the river ?–Eight feet. 1383. Are you ever flooded ?–We get a little back- water sometimes in the engine place during a flood. 1384. You are sometimes inconvenienced by floods —Yes, a little, but not a great deal; it is not often that that is the case. 1385. (Mr. Harrison.) Have not considerable works been carried out in the upper parts of the river in the formation of reservoirs to collect the water, which would flow down as flood water?—I believe that there are reservoirs of that sort, but we have none about here. 1386. Is not the object of those reservoirs to collect the water which would pass off as flood water to let it down more regularly during the summer season 7– Yes, and I should think it very desirable. 1387. You would expect the effect of that to be, RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 39 that the floods would be less, and the summer supply greater than formerly 2–Yes. 1388. But you have not observed that effect?–No, the river is very low now in dry seasons. 1389. (Chairman.) But however low it is it never interferes with your getting the volume of water you want?—No. Whenever it is low in a very dry season, the water is not so good, and we have a great stench from the river. - 1390. In a dry season you have less water?— Yes. - 1391. And it is more impure ?—Yes. 1892. And a great stench comes from it?–Occa- sionally it is very offensive. 1393. Does the smell at all interfere with the health of your people —I do not know that I could say that; it is exceedingly disagreeable, but I am not aware that it has had any effect of that sort. 1394. (Mr. Harrison.) If I understand you, in the cleaning of your yarn you do not collect any of the suds to send to Messrs. Teall's works —Yes; after washing all our worsteds and yarns, the refuse water goes to Messrs. Teall's ; it is otherwise with the washings from the wool, because with the wool we use a great quantity of water, and it is not worth Messrs. Teall's while to take it. 1395. Do you wash it in a machine as they do in many of the manufactories above?—Yes, we wash it in a patent machine. 1396. Is not the wool with the machine cleaned with a minimum quantity of water —No, there is a large quantity of water with the wool, much larger than used to be the case; we used to wash it in a small vessel by hand, but we can now wash it much more and we do so in a large quantity of water. 1397. Could not the water which had been used to complete the process of the last batch of wool be used for taking away the oily matter from the succeeding batch 2–No ; since we have had an agreement with Messrs. Teall and Company of course they do as they please with the suds, they either take them or not. 1398. Do you receive money from Messrs. Teall for the suds which they have from you?–Yes, they pay us so much a ton for every ton which they get from us. 1399. If it should be proved to us in the course of our inquiry that, without an actual expense to you, you could extract the soap refuse from the remainder of the water which you use in washing, would it be any hardship to require that you should do it?—We have nothing to do with the greasy matter at all, we do not care about it. - 1400. You receive a sum of money for a certain part of it which is rich in grease?–Yes. 1401. If you could, without receiving any money but without expense to yourself, separate the grease from the remainder, would it be any hardship to require ou to do so 2–I do not quite understand you. 1402. (Chairman.) Supposing that the law should be so altered that you were prevented from passing any refuse grease into the river, and that you would not receive so much from Messrs. Teall and Company as you do now, would it be a hardship if you were not allowed at the same time to make the largest profit which you could with one part of your refuse water, and to contaminate the river with the remainder?—It would be a hardship to the extent of 100l. a year. We at one time used to get 200l. a year from Messrs. Teall, but the large quantity of wool which we scour is not affected at all by their process now ; they say that it is not worth their while to take the wool water, and therefore we receive no money for the largest quan- tity of material which we wash. 1403. You say that you get an income from a cer- tain portion of the waste refuse which pays a person to take it away?—Yes, 1404. But if the law said to you, “You shall not put any of it into the river, whether you get an income or not, and the same rule enforced against all manufacturers alike,” do you think, from the puri- fied condition of the water, you would get an equiva- lent for that portion of the profit which you in common with all the manufacturers on the river would thus forego?—I should be very glad to forego that portion of the profit in order to have the whole of the river purified. - - 1405. That is a very important admission, becaus you see that the probability is that if the river is to be purified it may cost money, and the cost of the purification must come upon the persons benefited P —Certainly. 1406. (Mr. Harrison.) The refuse from your clean- sing processes is rich to a certain extent, so that you can actually sell it to Messrs. Teall, and they will give you money for it 2–Yes. 1407. But there is a large quantity of fluid which passes away besides that, which he says it will not pay him to give you any money for, but which might be reclaimed without being any actual expense to you in the result?—Certainly. 1408. (Chairman.) Messrs. Teall and Company might say, We will give you 100l. a year and will select the portion which we will take, or they might say We will take it all if you will let us have it for nothing 2–Yes. 1409. (Professor Way.) What is the nature of the injury which the river water does to your dyed goods? —It makes it more difficult to dye delicate colours. 1410. The colours are not so bright and fresh – They are not so bright, and it is difficult to hit off the particular colour. 1411. Is that due to matters suspended in the water? If the water were filtered would it be better for the purpose ?–It would be better. 1412. Is not the presence of sulphur in the water a difficulty in the working of some of your dyes — Yes. 1413. With the magenta dyes for instance, and the scarlet 2—Yes. 1414. And whether water was filtered or not you would have that 2–Yes. The water at Wakefield used to be particularly good, and was considered very excellent water for dyeing. 1415. The effect of the impurity of the water is that the delicate dyeing processes are being carried out further up stream 2–Yes, the water now comes to us in a very dirty, muddy, bad state. 1416. What materials do you use in dyeing?—Dye- woods, logwoods, fustic. 1417. Salts of iron 2–Very little. 1418. And of tin 3–Yes, a little. 1419. Which you dissolve yourselves?–Yes, we make the dye for our own goods. - 1420. I suppose that it is restricted to certain colours?—Yes. 1421. What colours are they? — Blues, blacks, scarlets, and purples. 1422. Still there are many colours which you do not dye –Yes. 1423. You do not use so great a quantity of dye materials as other persons use 2–No. 1424. Are the vats, for instance the logwood vats, often emptied?—The logwood vats are emptied every time that the dyeing is done ; indigo vats, of course, last some time till the indigo is spent. 1425. When the logwood vats are turned out, what colour is the liquid Is it very dark –Yes. 1426. Does it make an appearance in the river when it goes in 2–Yes. 1427. Does the river become darker ?–Yes, there is a stream of blue. 1428. (Chairman.) Did you ever try any mode of filtering the refuse?–No. 1429. Are you aware that any person in the neigh- bourhood has tried it 2–I am not. 1430. (Professor Way.) Logwood water is really a transparent liquid when it is run off, is it not ?–No. 1431. But the colour is in the liquid 2–Yes. 1432. Therefore, if you were to filter it by ordinary filtration the colour would still remain?–Yes. 1433. The refuse of the logwood itself I suppose is dug out of the vat 2–Yes, -- WAKE- FIELD. Mr. J. Barker. 18 Oct., 1866. E 4 40 * RIVERS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WAKE- FIELD. Mr. J. Barker. 18 Oct. 1866. Mr. J. D. Goldthorpe. 1434. Is that thrown into the river ?—No ; we do not throw anything of that sort into the river, it is laid away somewhere wherever we can get it away. 1435. (Mr. Harrison.) Is it large in quantity ?–It is not. - 1436. You heard the evidence of the last witness as to its being dredged from the river by the Aire and Calder Navigation Company ?—Yes. 1437. (Professor Way.) After it had been laid up for a little time you could burn it in your fires — Yes. 1438. In your works, supposing it to be desirable to have tanks for the purification of your liquid before its discharge into the river, have you space to make such tanks —I daresay that we could do so, but we are not very well off for that kind of thing ; it could be done however. 1439. The buildings, as a rule, are above ground, are they not ?—Yes. 1440. You have no underground places —No. 1441. Supposing that you were pressed for room, would there be a possibility of making tanks under the buildings —Yes, we could make tanks well enough ; it is a matter of expense. 1442. Do you think that that is generally the case with woollen works –I should think so about here. There are no underground works, or anything of that Sort. 1443. I suppose that you have men about your works who would be quite competent to look after any little simple process of that kind –Quite so. 1444. (Chairman.) Have you any further remarks to offer —No, I do not know that I have. I shall be very much delighted if you can establish a better mode of getting water for us. The witness withdrew. Mr. John D. GoLDTHoRPE (Wakefield) examined. 1445. (Chairman.) In what business are you en- gaged —I am a worsted and woollen yarn spinner. 1446. Your business is similar to that of the last witness 2–Yes. 1447. Where are your works situated?—In Ings Road. 1448. On Ings Beck?—At some distance from it, but we get our water from there for engine purposes. 1449. How far are you from the edge of the Calder –About a mile. 1450. What number of persons do you employ — Between 70 and 80, but we are increasing the works. 1451. Do you dye –Yes. 1452. And wash P-Yes. 1453. You use soap 2–Yes. 1454. Do you treat your soapsuds in any way — The refuse all goes into the Calder at present. 1455. You do not sell any of it 2–No. We have not been able yet to put up apparatus to deal with it. 1456. Is the refuse as rich as that portion of the refuse from Mr. Barker's works, which is dealt with by Mr. Teall?—Yes. It is not only the soap refuse which Mr. Teall cares about, but the oil as well. 1457. Do you get water for washing from any other source than the beck —We get our water for washing from the waterworks company. 1458. What volume do you get per day ? — I cannot tell you exactly what volume of water we get per day for washing alone, we use about 5,000 gallons a day for washing and dyeing ; we have sunk a well, and we pump up the water and use it partly for dyeing. - 1459. What depth is your well ?—About 10 yards. It is a very hard water. 1460. Has it any iron in it —It is full of iron. 1461. Then it is injurious for dyeing –It will do for some colours, and not for others; it will do for blacks, and not for browns. 1462. What do you pay per 1,000 gallons for your water —The waterworks company have a sliding scale. Sometimes it is 10d. per 1,000 gallons that we pay, and sometimes 9d., and sometimes 1s. 1463. How long have you used the company's water?—For some years. 1464. Is it any better or worse than it used to be 2 —It is not any softer than it used to be ; it is harder, if anything. 1465. Is it as bright, or brighter –It is quite as bright. 1466. Is it at all different in its character from what it was some two or three years ago?—I think that it is brighter. - 1467. Do you know that there is a fresh method of filtering it —From report, that is all. 1468. Have you found any benefit from it?—I have not paid sufficient attention to say. 1469. You do not know whether it does or not affect any of your dyeing products —I have not found any difference. 1470. Have you begun to use a larger volume of water since the new system of filtration has been in operation * – Decidedly not. We used to pay so much a year without any meter, and it is only within the last year or two that we have taken water by meter. We formerly paid 207. a year. 1471. How much do you pay now 2–We paid about 50l. the year before last, and not quite so much this last year, because we sank a well. - 1472. How long have your works been situated on this beck 2–More than 20 years. Since 1838. 1473. Has the water altered in its character since you began to use it 2–I do not think that it has ; that is to say, the water from the beck. - 1474. What is situated above you?—There is a dam. - 1475. Are there any works above you ?—Yes, Marriott’s works. 1476. What are they – Messrs. Marriott are worsted spinners and dyers, the same as ourselves. They turn in their refuse down below the dam, and we have been in the habit for years of using the refuse water from the dye-house for our engine. 1477. Are there any other works above you ?— Yes. There are some more, but they only turn down the refuse once a week; they have tanks. Messrs. Moorhouse and others up at Alverthorpe turn down the dye-water and the water of their houses on the Saturday night. 1478. Is that an advantage to you or a dis- advantage 2–We do not consider the dyewood and the other things in the water any disadvantage, so far as regards our boilers and engine. 1479. But as regards washing, what is the case ?— We do not use the river water for washing at all, but we use the waterworks water. 1480. (Mr. Harrison.) Why do you not find it any disadvantage as regards the boilers ?—The chemical products which are in the water, and other things, pre- vent the deposit of the sulphate of lime. 1481. (Chairman.) Is it a very hard water —Yes, it comes from the coal pits. 1482. (Professor Way.) The hardness is a perma- ment hardness; you may boil the water as much as you like without affecting it 2–Yes. 1483. (Chairman.) What is your opinion as to plac- ing manufactories under some kind of superintendence, so that you should be prevented from fouling the streams ?—I suppose that we should be troubled just the same as we are by the factory inspectors, who come round once in three or four years. I do not care, be- cause we are always right. 1484. (Mr. Harrison.) But although they only come once in three or four years, is the result satisfac- tory?—Yes. 1485. (Chairman.) There is a liability that they may come at any time —Yes, there is no doubt about that, RIVERS COMMISSION:–MiiNUTES OF EVIDENCE. 41 1486. You know the condition of the Aire and Calder 2—I do. 1487. And you know the condition of the waters of Yorkshire generally?—I think it is much better down here than when you get up to about Elland and Brig- house, and those parts, I have seen the river there in an awful state. 1488. Do you think it is possible that can go on without alteration, the manufactures increasing *- I do not think it can ; it would be a very good thing to keep all refuse out of the river, and to com" pel each manufacturer to provide tanks to utilize the refuse water. 1489. Do you think that the manufacturers in con- sequence being left to themselves are really destroying the water which is for the whole of the public –I have no doubt about it. 1490. Do you think that something should be done to stop that, and that all should be placed under the same restrictions?—I am quite of that opinion. I think that we want more central government in this country, and that we incline too much to a local and municipal government. 1491. Then if a way can be shown by which the manufacturers should be so far controlled that they should not pollute the streams, and yet that they should be enabled to carry on their trade with profit and advantage, you would not consider such control a hardship 2–Not at all; if all we manufacturers were put on the same footing we should get it out of the public in the end. 1492. Have you ever seen places where ashes are thrown in 2–No; I have only heard tell of one place in Wakefield where they have been thrown into the river. 1493. Where was that ?—They used to send them into the river from Holdsworth's dye-house, I have heard the workmen say so. 1494. Do you know that in other parts of Yorkshire the men of the mills standing on the side of the river never move a spade full excepting into the water – I have not that knowledge, but I fancy that they would do such things if left alone ; but here we have a very great demand for ashes, and there are two or three boats always ready to fetch them. 1495. Are you a member of the town council – No. 1496. Have you ever been so 2–Yes, 1497. How is the local business managed by the town council P-I can hardly tell you. I have had nothing to do with it for six years. 1498. Have you much carting to do from your works down to the railway or into the town 2–Fairly, the railway company cart the articles. 1499. (Mr. Harrison.) When did you sink your well ?—About 18 months ago. 1500. Before that time did you receive all the water from the waterworks which you used for dying and cleansing the cloth 2–Yes. 1501. What quantity did you use then 2–I can hardly tell you, but I know that in the half year it came under the price of 9d, a 1,000 gallons. 1502. What total quantity would that imply – About half a million gallons in the half year. 1503. Can you give us the weight of wool, and so forth, which you would wash in a day ?–We took part of the water for dyeing as well; I could not tell you the quantity of wool which we washed with it. 1504. (Chairman.) Do you know the weight of wool which you use in a year –We are using some- thing like 25 packs of wool every week. 1505. Of what weight is a pack 2–240lbs. 1506. Did you hear a gentleman's evidence yester- day with regard to the amount of potash which is got out of wool –I know that it is quite possible, because I have seen the operation performed, but the same quantity cannot be got out of the wool used in this district, because the wool comes already washed; it is nearly all skin wool, or foreign wools such as Russian or East Indian wools, which come dried and packed very hard. 17159.-2, 1507. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you use a machine in washing your wool?—Yes. 1508. What quantity of water do you use to a certain quantity of wool —That I cannot tell you. 1509. (Chairman.) The waste water is run into the beck –It goes into the beck; I do not know but what it might be utilized, but it would be at some cost. The wool might be washed twice through, and what you finish the last with might be used to wash the next batch. But I fancy that the reason why it is not worth Messrs. Teall’s while to take it is, that we are making our own soap for washing wool, and we make it with a much stronger alkali, and with less grease than is poured in soap which we should buy. 1510. (Professor Way.) As they do not get the alkali out of it, but only the grease, it is not so profit- able to them —No. 1511. (Chairman.) It is an economy to you to use that kind of soap rather than to use the soap of com- merce –Yes. 1512. What weight of that soap which you make do you use in a year –In making the soap we use about four tons of grease in a year, and we should use about four tons of soda ash to it. 1513. Messrs. Teall and Company say that that grease when recovered is worth about 18l. a ton 7– Yes; the grease which we use now is grease which has been used by curriers. 1514. The waste dubbin 3–Yes. 1515. It serves your purpose 2–Yes, very well. 1516. What is it worth in that condition ?—About 30l. a ton. 1517. And what is new grease worth a ton 2–I should think about 47 l. or 50l. 1518. (Professor Way.) I suppose that you could not form a notion, as Messrs. Teall do not buy your refuse, what proportion of the grease is saved –So far as I can understand from Messrs. Teall, having had talk with them at different times, I should say that every portion of the grease could be got out of any soapsuds if you only put acids in to recover it. 1519. (Chairman.) And if you use the means which they describe —Yes. 1520. Have you seen their presses at work —Yes, several times. 1521. It would not pay you individually to do it at your own works –No, I do not think that it would, but that I am not exactly in a position to state. 1522. (Mr. Harrison.) But you agree with the last witness, that if you could do it without extra expense to yourself, it would be quite fair to ask you to do it, inasmuch as your throwing it into the river is a nuisance to others ?—There is no doubt about it, be- cause I do not believe that anyone has a right to create a nuisance against his neighbour. 1523. (Chairman.) But still it would be useless to ask you or any person individually, or Wakefield sepa- rately, to submit to restrictions, supposing that all of you gentlemen in Wakefield were compelled by your local government to do certain things; if the rest of Yorkshire did not follow suit you would be at a disad- vantage –Of course. 1524. And the probability is that the restriction would destroy the manufacture in this particular place —Certainly. 1525. (Professor Way.) The chairman asked you what would be the result if this state of things went on for some years longer, supposing the dyeworks and the works which pollute the river to increase. Would a point come at which no further work could be done simply because there were no means of doing it 2–1 cannot see that exactly. We could not do the work that we do now if we took the water from the river in its present form; but if the chemist stepped in with his carbide of iron, and so on, we could use the river Water. - 1526. You spoke of Messrs. Moorhouse as manu- facturers above you ?–Yes, they do not use very much water, but they retain their refuse, and it comes down on Saturday night. F. WAKE- FIELD. Mr. J. D. Goldthorpe. 18 Oct. 1866. 42 RIVERS commission —MINUTEs of Evid ENCE, WAKE- FIELD. Mr. J. D. Goldthorpe. 18 Oct. 1866. Mr. G. Perkin, -- 1527. Are their tanks large —No, not very large Ones. - 1528. Therefore, if there were a necessity for re- taining the wash water for a time, it would not be so difficult to do it?—No. Why those people up the stream are obliged to keep the refuse till Saturday night is, lest it should foul the water at a dam belong- ing to Mr. Hick and Mr. Marriott. 1529. The refuse water being passed on Saturday evening then, the river is clean again on Monday ?— Yes. 1530. You know most of the works in this neigh- bourhood 2–Yes. 1531. Are they so situated that it would be possible in the majority of cases to connect them together so as to deal with their refuse at one spot?—I have not the slightest doubt about it ; they all now can go into the common sewer which has been made. 1532. There could be a pipe from one to the other, and the refuse could be dealt with as one quantity?— Yes, they are not above a quarter of a mile apart : they lie in a circle of half a mile I should say. 1533. And Isuppose that the machinery which you could put up, and the arrangements which you could make, could be more economically effected for the whole than for one individual 2–Do you mean dealing with the soapsuds 1534. Yes.—No ; you could deal more economically at each manufactory, because you would have the steam there, and you would not have to carry the steam backwards and forwards. 1535. (Mr. Harrison.) And in some cases the quantity of water would be of importance to the mill below 2–I do not know if any of that sewage is of importance to any mill below us. - 1536. I do not mean in your case ?–1 refer to the cases which Mr. Way speaks of ours is of hardly any value. 1537. (Professor Way.) If there was a difficulty in finding space upon any of the premises where the evil is created, would it not be possible to find space elsewhere where there might be a concentration of the liquid —I daresay that most of us could find space, probably at a little cost to ourselves. I was reading this morning the evidence of Mr. Lynam, the borough surveyor; he says that the river at the outlet of the sewage from the town seems to be clear water, and that the Chorld Beck is infinitely worse owing to the manufacturers fouling that stream. I do not myself think that is the case ; I should say that on an average they do not send 100,000 gallons down those waters I went to look at the beck about half an hour before coming here and the water looked quite right. I filled a bottle and have brought it, and this is the character of the water (producing the same), but I must say that about 4 or 5 o'clock this evening it will be worse, that is, when the pans are mostly let off. 1538. (Professor Way.) That floating matter is dyewood of some sort –Yes, I have no doubt that it is camwood. 1539. (Mr. Harrison.) Would it all be stopped by a filter –Yes. 1540. (Chairman.) Do you think that much of the refuse wool goes away into the water by washing 2– A certain portion. Although we have our dye-pans covered over with copper, perforated at the place where the refuse comes out, lots of wool gets through, and every week we have to clean out the drain from the pans through our yard. 1541. That wool, if it were separated from its dirt would be usable for either felting, or spinning, or some- thing or other ?—The whole of it would be usable if it did not not go through and get lost. 1542. And if any process could prevent its going through, it would be a gain to you ?–Yes, but I do not think that there is a very great quantity. 1543. Did you hear yesterday one of the dredgers say that below Leeds there are deposits of this wool refuse to an enormous extent –Yes, but in my opinion these deposits come there from the water- closets of the various manufactories. The men will sometimes take the waste wool there, if they have been making too much waste in their spinning and have not minded their work; in order to escape being detected, they throw it down the closet into the river. The witness withdrew. Mr. GEORGE PERKIN (Wakefield) examined. 1544. (Chairman.) What business do you carry on? —A cocoa-matting manufactory. 1545. What weight of cocoa-fibre do you use in a year 2–About 6 tons a week, as nearly as I can tell. 1546. Where does it come from ?–Chiefly from London and from Liverpool. 1547. It comes up to you by rail —Rail and Water. 1548. What does it cost you a ton 2–From 221. to 70l. per ton. 1549. What part of the world does it come from ? —Ceylon, Bombay, and Cochin. 1550. What is the first process which it goes through in its manufacture ? – Bleaching; I have brought a sample with me. 1551. What do you use for bleaching it?—Chloride of lime and oil of vitriol. 1552. Where are your works situated – At the bottom of Kirkgate. 1553. On the margin of the river?—Perhaps; about 150 yards from the river. º Do you pass any refuse matter into the river? – I eS. 1555. Into a sewer first 2–Into a sewer first, then it goes into a beck, the Chorld Beck or the Jug's Beck, and finally into the river. 1556. How many people do you employ in your manufactory —About 100 or 110, men, girls, and boys. 1557. (Professor Way.) You deal in cocoa-nut fibre 2–Yes. 1558. Does it take much bleach 3–It takes a very fair quantity. 1559. You do not bleach it up to whiteness?—I have brought a sample with me (producing two samples.) 1560. Can you get it entirely white –Not at all. 1561. Does the bleaching injure the texture of it much 3–No, I think not. - 1562. Is the dark colour stronger than the other 2 —I think not. - 1563. Is it kept long in the bleach 2–About 6 or 6 hours. 1564. (Chairman.) From a ton of raw fibre do you know what weight of bleached material would come out 2 How much waste would there be 2–There would be none; it is the yarn which we get, we only weave it. 1565. Then the price which you pay is not for the husk of the cocoa-nut, but for this material which you have produced 2–Yes. 1566. In your dealing with the materials I hold in my hand you bleach one until it becomes like the other, and the only waste is the lime, chemicals, and the water which you apply to produce the lighter colour 2–Yes. 1567. What volume of water and what chemicals would you use to produce a ton of this material?— Perhaps about 1 cwt. of chloride of lime. 1568. And how much oil of vitriol –About 6 lbs., as nearly as I can tell. 1569. I suppose that the object of bleaching the fibre is partly that you may dye it afterwards —No, it is partly for the colour of the matting. 1570. But you do dye it, do you not ?–Yes, but we do not bleach for dyeing. 1571. What is done with the refuse of the dye- vats –It is sent down the sewers, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 43 1572. And then I suppose it goes into the beck —Yes, and from the beck into the river. - 1573. Do you use about 15 to 20 tons of chloride of lime in the year —Yes, I daresay that I do. - 1574. Is there any other chemical process which the fibre undergoes 2–No. 1575. You do not boil any of it in alkali -Nº. . 1576. Is it only the fibre which you deal with in your works —Only the fibre. 1577. Do you not deal with China grass?–No. . 1578. Do you dye this fibre —Yes, we dye it these two colours, black and red (producing two samples.) 1579. What is used in dyeing the red fibre — Peachwood and a little muriate of tin. 1580. What do you use in dyeing the black fibre : —Logwood and a little green copperas. 1581. What is the red fibre worth a ton 2–55l. to 60l. a ton in the dyed state. 1582. Then this is not of the best quality ?–No. 1583. And what is the black fibre worth – About the same. 1584. Do you manufacture the matting 2–Yes. 1585. You have weaving sheds?—Yes. 1586. Is there much refuse, or any refuse at all, from the weaving 2—A little. 1587. (Professor Way.) Do you keep it?—Yes. 1588. (Chairman.) Do you produce other colours besides these ?–Only a kind of brown ; it is some- thing similar to those. 1589. (Professor Way.) I suppose that the contents of your logwood vats, and the vats containing the peachwood that you use, is run into the beck —The liquid is. 1590. What do you do with the wood –The woods are taken out and burnt with the slack for the engine. The solid refuse of the chloride of lime we take out and put it into the ash-pit, and it is carted away with the soil; that does not run away. 1591. Have you any way in which you can dispose of the liquid otherwise than by running it into the beck –We have not at present, but I daresay that it might be done if it was of any benefit. 1592. Does it smell strongly when you send it away?—No ; we are supposed to get all that we can out of it. 1593. (Chairman.) Are there many fibre makers, or persons who carry on your trade in this part of Yorkshire?–Only, I believe, the Leeds Prison, and the Wakefield Prison, and ourselves. 1594. Then it is not a very large trade –It is rather a large trade in Wakefield ; a great quantity is made in Wakefield. 1595. Where is your principal market for the sale of the manufactured material?—Our trade principally lies with Manchester, or thereabouts. 1596. What is the matting used for 2–For covering floors. 1597. For covering office floors ?—Yes. 1598. In place of carpet 2—Yes; it is a thing of universal wear. 1599. Is much of it exported?—Yes, a great deal of it. 1600. To what part –To America and Australia. 1601. Then it pays to bring the material here and manufacture it, and to export it to those countries — It seems so ; a great deal is exported. 1602. Do you send any of it back to India 2–No, I never heard of its going there. 1603. Is it a new trade with you?—It has been in existence at the prison about 20 years, but with our- seives only about three or four years. 1604. How long have the other manufacturers been in the trade?—There are only ourselves and the two prisons. 1605. I thought that you said that it was extensively carried on here?—It is rather extensively carried on. The prisoners do a great quantity of it; they manufac- ture something like 15 to 20 tons a week of the mat- ting and mats. 1606. Do they bleach it and dye it as you do?— Yes. 1607. And weave it 2–Yes. 1608. Do they put it into the market at such a price that you can compete with them –Yes. 1609. Is there an understanding between you as to what you should charge 2–No, I think that we can compete with the prison labour; we always find free labour as easy to obtain as prison labour, and as cheap. 1610. Suppose that they did not choose to charge for their labour P-They cannot make all that the country requires. 1611. (Professor Way.) Do you know anything about the China grass?—No. I know the material, but I do not know the process through which it goes. 1612. (Chairman.) Is there any manufacturer of Uhina grass in Wakefield 2–Yes; just below the pri- son ; the Yorkshire Fibre Company. 1613. Do the prison people manufacture China grass?–No, I believe not. 1614. Is it a similar process to yours?—I think that it is rather a stronger process to go through. 1615. Does the China grass come in a manufactured form like the cocoa fibre 2–No, it comes in raw. 1616. And it has to be bleached and treated en- tirely 2–Yes. The witness withdrew, Mr. DANIEL WILSON (Wakefield) examined, 1617. (Chairman.) What business do you carry on 2–I am a soap maker. 1618. Where are your works situated —At Bridge End in Wakefield, close to the river. 1619. How long have the works been established there –Four years. 1620. Do you use much water from the river ?— We use all that we want. 1621. Do you get any water from the waterworks company —None at all. 1622. What weight of soap do you make in a year * —I make about 15 tons a week now. I was with Hodgson and Simpson for 25 years. 1623. (Professor Way.) In boiling the grease with alkali, what becomes of the water afterwards, when the soap separates ?–It is turned into the river. 1624. It is not clear I suppose 2–Yes, it is as clear as possible, it is perfectly clear; we do not let any grease go into the river. 1625. You do not take any means to separate glycerine in anyway?–No, we have never done so : the glycerine goes along with the spent lees. 1626. You make your own alkali caustic, do you not ?–Yes. 1627. What becomes of the lime which is used in that process –We either sell it or give it away to the farmers. - 1628. They fetch it?—Yes, we do not turn it into the river, neither do they turn it into the river at the other works; it is all either sold or given away. 1629. (Chairman.) You remember the river, I sup- pose, for a number of years?—Yes, about 30 years I should think. 1630. Is it better or worse now than it was when you first knew it 2–I do not think that there is much difference. 1631. (Professor Way.) There is not much differ- ence to you, because you do not care for the quality of the water at all?—No ; therefore I could not give an opinion whether it is better or worse. 1632. Is there anything in the drains which would lead you to consider it objectionable —No. 1633. In making 15 tons of soap in a week, what quantity of water do you use *-ſ should think that we use something like 15 tons of water. 1634. Only one ton of water to one ton of soap – That is about it. WAKE- FIELD. Mr. G. Perkin. 18 Oct. 1866. Mr. D. Wilson. F 2 43 RIVERS COMMISSION: —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WAKE- FIELD. Mr. D. Wilson. 18 Oct. 1866, 1635. (Mr. Harrison.) What proportion of it goes away polluted —The greater part of it. 1636. (Chairman.) Do you use engine power – Yes. 1637. What weight of coal do you burn in a week 2 —About ten tons. railway company has taken them away; what we are to do with them by and bye I cannot tell you. 1639. (Professor Way.) You say that you were with Mr. Simpson until the last four years 2–Yes. 1640, Mr. Simpson I believe makes soda from salt cake, does he not ?—He makes his own black ash ; he 1638. What do you do with your ashes –We do not put them into the river, up to the present time the is making the lees from black ash. 1641. Do you do that ?– No, I buy my soda ash. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM STEwART (of Wakefield) examined. 1642. (Chairman.) What are you ?–Superinten- dent Registrar of the Wakefield Union, which includes Wakefield. 1643. How long have you occupied that position ? —Over 24 years. 1644. What population is there in your registration area 2–I think about 55,029. 1645. That includes the town of Wakefield –Yes, and about 22 other townships. 1646. Is a death and birth registration taken for the whole –There is a registration for Wakefield township alone ; then there is one for the township of Stanley-cum-Wrenthorpe, a portion of which township is within the borough of Wakefield ; then there is another township, Alverthorpe-with-Thornes, for which there is a separate registration ; a portion of that town- ship is within the borough of Wakefield. 1647. Can you give the mortality for the borough alone –It would be very difficult to do that. I should have to make separate extracts and it would take a long time to do that. 1648. The registration areas are not always adjusted to the population areas?—No; the mortality of Wake- field would simply be of the township of Wakefield, and the township of Wakefield is less than the borough. 1649. Have there been any cholera epidemics since you have been superintending registrar –Yes. 1650. In what years ?—I think in 1848 and 1849 and 1852. 1651. Do you remember the Irish famine 2–Yes. 1652. Had you much typhus fever during 1846, 1847, and 1848 –I do not think that we had. 1653. Do not you remember that the Irish famine caused many Irish to come into Yorkshire, who had the fever upon them —I do not know whether they had the fever upon them, but the largest number of Irish that we have had has been since the Three Years Residence Act commenced, after 1862; there was a very marked increase then in the population. I have brought with me here a paper which gives the census of 1861, and the census of 1851, then I give you the figures from 1858. I began with that year because I happened to have the figures ready from that time. The paper I hold in my hand will give you from 1858 inclusive, the births and deaths in the township of Wakefield, and I have carried out into the outer margin a calculation of what it would be per 1,000 upon the census of 1861. I have taken the last three years, 1864, 1865, and 1866, taking the three-quarters of the years, and I have added what I believe to be a proper number to make up the population to the present time. I will first tell you how I have got the number of the population at the present time, that you may see whether my calculations are reliable or not. In 1861, when the census was taken, I find by my return that there were 291 empty houses in Wakefield. I assume that there are none now. I am assuming also that there would be at least 200 new ones. I think I am under the mark in saying that, but adding the 200 new ones to the 291 empty houses, I call them in round numbers 500, giving five persons to each dwell- ing. That would make an addition to the census of 1861 of about 2,500. Taking that estimate, I find that the death rate for 1866 in Wakefield township was about 27:41 per 1,000. In 1865 it was 24-92, and in 1864 it was 25-87. 1654. In this year has there been a large increase in the mortality ?—Yes. 1655. Has that increase been more in one part of the year than in another ?—This paper will shew that. This year the numbers have been very great. In the March quarter 149; in the June quarter 149 : in the September quarter 123; making a total of 421. Then I have taken 130, the average number for the last three years, to make it into a year, and that gives 31:30, according to the old population, and according to the present, 27-41. 1656. (Mr. Harrison.) You expect this year to have a mortality of 27:41 –Yes; in place of, in 1862, 2028; in 1861, 21.64; and in 1860, 22:44, and so on. 1657. (Chairman.) What types of disease have manifested themselves this year Have you had any cholera —Only one case recently. 1658. What were the types of disease during the early part of the year 2–Chiefly bronchitis, and dis. eases of that kind. 1659. Has there been any typhus?—I have gone through the Wakefield deaths for the last quarter, and I find that there have been only three deaths from typhoid fever. I do not find typhus entered by the medical man. I take the return simply as I find it, but they have had typhoid fever, and there are only three deaths. 1660. Has the state of the weather had any in- fluence during this year 2–1 always find that in the winter quarter the deaths up to March are heavier chiefly amongst old people. 1661. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you know what the death rate is in any of the townships part of which are within the borough –I have taken also Alverthorpe- with-Thornes, which is partly in the borough, and also Stanley-cum-Wrenthorpe. Owing to our having the West Riding Pauper Lunatic Asylum within the Stanley district, there is not a single return in which the deaths have not exceeded the births. The deaths in this year in the Stanley district have been very heavy ; in the March quarter they were 134, and in the June quarter 186. 1662. (Chairman.) The asylum, I suppose, has a separate registration, and they will record their own admissions and deaths —I suppose that must be so ; but the deaths are registered in the ordinary way. 1663. Have you paid attention to the condition of the district as to the pollution of the river, and as to the pollution of the atmosphere by smoke, so as to come to any conclusion whether those influences are prejuicial or not to the public health P-I have not. I am not the registrar, I only examine the returns quarterly in order to send up certified copies to the Registrar-General; but I think that the increased mortality in this district has arisen almost entirely from the large influx of the Irish which has taken place by reason of the altered law of settlement. We have a large number indeed, and they live probably in the very worst class of houses, and in the worst localities. We have more Irish in Wakefield than perhaps in any other township of the district. At Ossett, for instance, there are very few Irish residents; the owners will not allow them to live there; but a great deal of Irish labour is used there. I think there are from 200 to 300 Irish girls who go to Ossett daily to pick rags, and those all come back at night to lodge in Wakefield, and return in the morning. 1664. Are you acquainted with the Sanitary Act of last session ?—I am. 1665. Are you aware that there are powers given in that Act for magistrates, and guardians, and local boards of health to interfere to prevent over-crowding and nuisances –Yes. 1666. Looking at the increasing death rate, is it your opinion that the local authorities ought to put in RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 45 force those powers ?—Undoubtedly they ought, and much more largely than they have done. 1667. (Mr. Harrison.) You would not lead us to suppose that the great increase in the mortality has been caused solely by the influx of the Irish who have come into the township of Wakefield since 1862?–No. 1668. Their presence has probably increased the mortality among those with whom they dwell ?— Just so. 1669. (Chairman.) If the local registrars were paid for it, I suppose they might obtain returns from separate blocks of buildings and from separate locali- ties —Yes, by having a little tabulated form, showing the different streets. It would not cause much trouble. The following Tables were handed in : Township of WAKE FIELD. WAKE- FIELD. Census, 1861 - - - 17,601. Census, 1851 - - - 16,990. Mortality | Mortality - Births. Deaths. per 1,000 - Births. Deaths. per 1,000 per Annum. per Annum. 1858. 1863. March Quarter - - - 134 98 March Quarter - - - 153 124 June Quarter - - - 138 107 June Quarter - - - 156 95 September Quarter - - 117 87 September Quarter - - 150 121 December Quarter - - 146 97 December Quarter - - 160 107 535 389 = 22 I 619 447 = 25°34 ——— — 1864. 1859. March Quarter - - - 132 87 }. Quarter - - - 192 º June Quarter - - - 181 122 June Quarter - - - 137 82 Se - -- - ptember Quarter - - 175 1 i 7 September Quarter - 147 117 December Quarter - - 155 131 December Quarter - - 130 124 w 546 - 410 = 22' 3 703 520 =29 - 54 — -- 1865. 1860. March Quarter - - - 195 128 March Quarter - - - 154 134 June Quarter - - - 171 119 | June Quarter - - - 155 94 September Quarter - - 206 124 September Quarter - - 111 68 December Quarter - - 172 130 December Quarter - - 156 99 - -- - 744 501 – 28 °46 576 395 = 22'44 — ---——— --- 1866. 1861. March Quarter - - - 153 149 March Quarter - - - 124 114 . Qºrº... - - || || º June Quarter - - - 147 98 eptember Quarter - - 186 123 —” September Quarter - - 142 75 V : - Ras - *-*-* - i. Quarter - - 164 94 Nine Months - - - 536 421 -23-91 * * as – on. Computed up to December ºf _* = 21 *64 1866 at - - - - – 130 1862. — 551 = 31:30 March Quarter - - - 140 110 --- June Quarter - - - 163 90 Computed according to proba- - September Quarter - - 149 64 ble present population, which December Quarter - - 16.1 93 I suppose to be 2,500 - - — — = 20° 101 —— 1864 - - - - - 793 520 =25:37 613 357 = 20°28 1865 - - - - - 744 501 =24' 92 —— 1866 - - - - — 551 = 27 ° 41 STANLEY-CUM-WRENTHORPE. Census, 1861 - - 8,237. 1858. 1862. March Quarter - - - 91 95 March Quarter - - - 60 108 June Quarter - - - 60 77 June Quarter - - - 92 106 September Quarter - - 68 77 September Quarter - - 53 83 December Quarter - - 70 70 December Quarter - - 97 65 2so 310 302 sº 1863. 1859. March Quarter - - - 81 107 March Quarter - - - 80 84 June Quarter - - - 93 88 June Quarter - - 89 | 70 September Quarter - - 69 | 83 September Quarter - - 66 8 I December Quarter - 77 º, December Quarter - - 66 86 - ——— —-– 320 347 301 321 ————— ———— 1864. - March Quarter - - - 73 114 1860. June Quarter - - - 91 92 March Quarter - - - 80 100 September Quarter - 77 82 June Quarter - - - 62 94 December Quarter - - 84 89 September Quarter - - 71 60 ––– December Quarter - - 8. 7s 3.25 377 297 332 1865. --- March Quarter - - - 101 121 June Quarter - - - 105 139 1861. September Quarter - - 68 10 | March Quarter - - - 67 102 December Quarter - - 75 9ſ) June Quarter - - - 91 92 - — September Quarter - - 78 98 349 451 December Quarter - - 66 74 ——— ––– 1866. 802 366 March Quarter - - - 84 134 June Quarter - - - 90 1 & 6 Mr. W. Stewart, 18 Oct. 1866. 46 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WAKE- FIELD. Mr. W. Stewart. 18 Oct. 1866. Mr. J. Sykes. ALVERTHORPE-WITH-THORNEs. Census, 1861 - Mortality - Births. Deaths. per 1,000 per Annum. 1858. March Quarter - - - 59 30 June Quarter - - - 50 21 September Quarter - - 78 36 December Quarter - - 53 38 240 125 = 18 81 1859. March Quarter -- - - 79 39 June Quarter - - - 64 33 September Quarter - - 65 33 December Quarter - - 60 60 268 1.65 =24'83 1860. March Quarter - - - 70 64 June Quarter - - - 80 47 September Quarter - - 69 31 December Quarter - - 66 46 285 188 – 28 - 29 1861. March Quarter - - - 68 64 June Quarter - - - 66 35 September Quarter - - 84 24 December Quarter - - 58 29 276 152 =22 87 1862. March Quarter - - - 70 49 June Quarter - - - 80 40 September Quarter - - 80 27 December Quarter - - 60 42 290 158 =23° 77 - - 6,645. - Mortality - Births. Deaths. per 1,000 per Annum. 1863. March Quarter - - - 68 29 June Quarter - - - 90 26 September Quarter - - 68 46 December Quarter - - 88 31 3.14 132 = 19° 86 1864. March Quarter - - - 78 59 June Quarter - - - 80 39 September Quarter - - 56 39 December Quarter - - 85 37 299 174 = 26° 18 1865. March Quarter - - 87 53 June Quarter - - - 93 43 September Quarter - - 63 31 December Quarter - - 57 51 300 17s =26-7s ——— 1866. March Quarter - - - 101 55 June Quarter - - - 80 53 Michaelmas Quarter - - 70 32 December Quarter (say) average of last three years - || – 40 – 180 l =27'09 The witness withdrew. Mr. Joseph SYREs further examined. 1670. (Mr. Harrison.) I think you stated in your evidence yesterday that you first pumped the water into a subsiding reservoir of about five acres in ex- tent P−Yes. 1671. At what periods do you pump the water into that reservoir –Generally after the flood, just when the flood is subsiding. 1672. You let the first part of the flood carry away any pollution there may be from the bed of the river, and when it is subsiding you fill the reservoir – Yes. 1673. What number of gallons does that reservoir hold –Speaking from memory, perhaps 40,000,000 of gallons. 1674. Your supply to the town is 700,000 gallons a day ?—Yes. 1675. In that reservoir for how many days have you a supply for the town —I should say for about two months. 1676. Since your connexion with the water com- pany have you had an opportunity of forming an opinion as to the quantity of matter that subsides in that reservoir –After the reservoir had been in use for about 27 years, as near as I can calculate, we had an opportunity of cleansing it. 1677. In what year was that ?–In 1862. 1678. Did you then empty the reservoir out for the purpose of cleansing it —Yes, and repitching it, and we took the opportunity of dividing it. 1679. What quantity of sediment did you find in the bottom of the reservoir after that lengthened pe— riod —After the reservoir was run out the mud lay a considerable time before it was removed, and, as far as I can make a calculation, it would be about three inches over the entire area. 1680. Did you make any attempt to carry off any mud with the latter part of the water 2–No ; the water passed off gently, and left about three inches of mud. 1681. Was that the occasion of which the medical man spoke when the supply was bad 2–Yes. 1682. When that reservoir was empty you were obliged to draw immediately from the river Calder 2 —Yes, I was. 1683. Then was it in the autumn of 1862 when the people of Wakefield had to take bad water or none 2 —Yes. 1684. Did you take any steps to prevent a recur- rence of that state of things in case of cleaning out the reservoir at any future time —Yes ; and we spent a large sum on a division wall, so that we now can cleanse one part of the reservoir (2} acres) at any time and work with the other half. - 1685. As that is a subsiding reservoir the water has a different degree of purity as you pass from the upper portion to the bottom of the reservoir 2–I should imagine so. 1686. Do you take any steps, in drawing the water from that reservoir for your filter beds above, to take the best of it —Yes, we endeavour to take a foot or 18 inches from the surface by telescope slides. 1687. In drawing from that reservoir you never disturb the bottom of the reservoir or the sediment 2 —No. 1688. Do the several steps which the water com- pany have taken : viz., the filtering of this large space with a two months water supply for the town taken from the Calder in its best condition, the providing of a large area for subsidence, and the drawing off of only the best portion of the water, tend to improve the supply to the town --They do. 1689. It would be hardly fair to say that the water RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 47 as it comes down the Calder at all times of the year is a fair sample of the water you supply to the town of Wakefield 2–Most decidedly not. I may say in addition, now that the waterworks have been estab- lished for nearly 30 years, and that with the exception of the period that has been mentioned, the Water has not been turned off from the town a single hour from a lack of supply, or any other cause ; therefore I think the inhabitants have no cause to grumble on account of M, a lack of supply. I will now hand in a copy of a re- port that was drawn up by Mr. William Ranger (handing in the same.) The witness withdrew. Mr. Row1AND CHILDE (of Wakefield) examined. 1690. (Chairman.) Are you a civil and mining engineer 2–Yes. - - ióði. Have you kept a record of the rainfall in this district for any length of time –Quly for 12 months; we commenced in September 1865. 1692. What has been the rainfall in that time – About 25% inches for those 12 months in Wakefield, from September 1865 to September 1866. 1693. Do you remember what it was for the two months previous to June for each month –Com- mencing on September 9th it was '05 to the end of the month; in October 4:23 inches; in November 1'85 inches; in December 55; in January 1866, 1 '89; in February 2°26; in March 1'40; in April '95; in May 0.73; in June 2:42; in July 4:4; in August 3:08; up to September 9th, 1.91. I must add, that being some- times engaged by the water company, during the time of the transition period, when the alterations were going on, and when the water was at its worst, I tried to in- duce Mr. Statter to consider the possibility of an extension in the immediate neighbourhood. I knew the district in the West Riding of Yorkshire well, and that there was no scheme that could be got for Wake- field without a great expense. The scheme I pro- posed to Mr. Statter was to take the water from New- miller Dam, about three miles south of Wakefield, and to convey it to the existing reservoir at Stanley Ferry (which might be done at a very trifling cost), and so utilize the present works, which could then supply the town with that water instead of pumping the water from the river. There is a watershed of upwards of 5000 acres, besides numerous springs in the district occasioned by faults, and likewise there is the surplus water from Cold Hiendley, which has an additional gathering ground of from 600 to 700 acres. There is a reservoir there which is used for the purpose of supplying the Barnsley canal with water in dry seasons chiefly, but there is always a large surplus which comes from that district, and runs into the New- miller Dam. 1694. Is the Newmiller Dam an artificial construc- tion ?–It has been, I have no doubt. I have prepared an Ordnance map to show the plan proposed (producing the map and explaining it). I believe the water is rather harder than the river water. This is how I propose to take it down (describing), by gravitation. 1695. At the works you would have to pump the same lift that you have to pump now —Yes, to Field Head. 1696. You would have to deal with any contamina- tion that there is in this area —Yes, but there is very little, the area belongs chiefly to large landed proprietors. The witness The witness subsequently sent to the Commission the following letter :- SiR, Wakefield, Nov. 2, 1866. I sha LL be obliged if the Commission will allow me to make the following addition to my evidence, in further explanation of the water supply to this town. Since the Commission sat at Wakefield I have minutely computed the extent of the water-shed of the “Cold- Hiendley” reservoir, and find it to be 1,389 acres, instead of from 600 to 700 acres as stated. It is important to have this matter correctly laid before the Commission, not only because the “Cold Hiendley” or “Canal” reservoir (as it is sometimes called) is a powerful auxiliary to the Newmiller Dam catchment, but also in consequence of being one of the schemes recommended by the late Mr. Ranger as the source of an amended water supply for the 1697. What would be the estimated cost 2–Not more than 10,000l., exclusive of parliamentary ex- penses and engineering. 1698. What volume of water do you think you would get 2—There is a shed of about 5,000 acres, and taking the rainfall available at 10 inches, it would give you a supply of upwards of 3,000,000 gallons a day. 1699. The present supply is 700,000 gallons 2– Yes; and taking an available rainfall of 8 inches, it would give 2,500,000 gallons. 1700. What would the storage reservoirs hold 2–I do not remember exactly, perhaps it might be neces- sary to construct additional ones at Stanley Ferry. 1701. Would that come into the estimate you have made 2–No ; that would be extra. 1702. You cannot say what the cost might be 2–I am not prepared to say. 1703. It would be much more than 10,000l. I sup- pose 2–Yes. 1704. Have you anything further to add 2–I have computed the area, above Kirkgate Bridge, of the watershed of the river Calder, and it is 330 square miles. 1705. Do you know what quality of water comes from that area 2–No. 1706. Are you acquainted with the geology of the district P – Yes. We have the coal measures, in- cluding the flag stone, up to Sowerby Bridge, beyond that is the millstone grit, and we always get good water from that formation. 1707. The coal measures generally give you hard water P-Yes. 1708. What is the geological character of the area near Wakefield 2–It is all in the coal measures; the subsoil is chiefly sandstone, shale, and clay. 1709. In the event of the coal being worked, you would be liable to get the water of the workings — Perhaps to some extent. 1710. What is the general character of that water? — There is a pumping engine upon the western summit of this water-shed to the Barnsley coal pit, and the water pumped out of that pit is supplied to the cottages upon the works, 1711. Do you know its chemical quality ?–No, I do not. 1712. Is not colliery water usually hard?–It is generally so. 1713. Is it not usually hard, with sulphates ?— Sulphates of magnesia. In some places there is a great deal of magnesia in colliery water. withdrew. borough. In the appendix to Mr. Ranger's report will be found Professor Way’s analysis of this water, which I subjoin :- Hardness - - - 124's deg. Solid residue by evaporation of an imperial gallon, 28-72 grains. Consisting of Grains. Water combined with salts and a little organic matter - - - - - 5' 60 Silica, alumina, and oxide of iron - - 0° 10 Chloride of sodium - . - - - 2' 36 Sulphate of soda - - - – 6'71 Sulphate of potash - - - - 0:53 Sulphate of magnesia - - - - 4:01 Carbonate of magnesia- - - - 1 -98 Carbonate of lime - - - - 7:43 Organic matter - - - Rather large. WAKE- FIELD. - J. Sykes. 18 Oct. 1866. Mr. R. Childe, F 4 48 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCF. WAixE. FIELD. Mr. R. Childe. 18 Oct. 1866. T. Spencer, Esq. ----- Mr. Way also says:–“ The water of the canal reservoir is bright and free from opalescence. Its flavour is fair, although not quite so free from organic character as that “ of the Dakin and Elmhirst streams. It is slightly more impregnated with magnesia than the last-named waters, and rather harder. Nevertheless, there is much “ in my opinion to recommend the Canal reservoir as the . “ source of supply for Wakefield.” There is no doubt that Wakefield, from its internal position, is peculiarly placed with respect to procuring a good and pure supply of water. The town is situate geographically in the north-eastern portion of the York- shire coal-field (see map which I enclose), and consequently at a much greater distance from the pure water-bearing strata of the “millstone grit” formation than the other large towns in the West Riding ; and although now prosper- ing, Wakefield is not such a wealthy and populous place as some of the neighbouring towns, and could not afford, all at once (with the present waterworks on hand) to travel from 15 to 25 miles to other districts, at a cost of from 150,000l. to 200,000l., to procure a purer supply. It is from a knowledge of these facts that Mr. F. Lamb and myself have been anxious the water company should take means to procure the Newmiller Dam scheme as an amended or auxiliary supply. The water is bright and clear, and would require very little filtering, and would effect a con- siderable saving in the annual expenses of the company, by abolishing the the present pumping from the river, mitigating the labour of cleansing filter beds and other expensive filtering apparatus, now rendered obligatory from the impure state of the river water; but inasmuch as the chief cost of Mr. Spencer's filtering material has been in- curred, and the company should consider it no additional expense to continue the present system of filtration, and pass the water through the “magnetic carbide’’ filters, the result would be that the town would be possessed of a brilliant and abundant supply, and the inhabitants satisfied of having good and wholesome water delivered to them from a different source than the river. It is certainly wonderful how the water at present supplied to the town is made to look so good. Of course this is caused by the magic agency of Mr. Spencer's patent, but, notwithstanding the appearance, I am informed there is comparatively little of it drunk by the people as a beverage, excepting through compulsion. No doubt this is prejudice, and arises from a knowledge of the source from which the water is obtained. With respect to the quality of the Newmiller Dam water, I believe it is superior to that of the canal reservoir. The following is the analysis, viz.:- Grains. Carbonate of soda with a trace of potash - 2'50 Sulphate of soda - - - - () - 80 Sulphate of lime - - - - 5:21 ë. of lime and magnesia - – 6:09 Chloride of sodium - - - 3 - 20 (). 16 1:45 Silicia and traces of iron - - - Organic matter and loss - - - Solid residue by evaporation of an . imperial gallon - - !} 19:41 Hardness by Dr. Clarke's scale - 13 degrees. -> after boiling - – 6 -> A gauge has been fixed at Woolley 400 feet above the level of the sea (Ordnance datum) during the last 12 months, but the rainfall of the district is not so much as I expected. Perhaps it arises from the gauge being on the slope of a hill which rises in about three-fourths of a mile to the west and south-west nearly 200 feet, which eminence will no doubt intercept the rain when the wind is in that quarter, and especially so when we consider the south-west wind is the most prevalent and more often accompanied with rain than the wind which blows from any other point of the compass. The register of the gauge is as follows:– Inches. 1865 Sept. 9 to 30 - - - 0-13 October - - - 4 - 19 November - - - ) . 72 December - - - 0° 50 1866 January - - - 0-94 February - - - 1 65 March - - - - 1:09 April - - - - 0'57 May - - - - 0.67 June - - - - 2' 67 July - - - - 3' 81 August - - - 3 - 17 September to 9t - - 1:53 Total in 12 months - 22:64 The area of the water-shed being 5,010 acres, the quantity of water to be obtained would be as under :- labl fall Gallons. Due to available rainfall of 12 h., - - inches per annum - - }3.7 26,000 per diem. Ditto, 10 inches per annum - 3,105,000 -> Ditto, 8 inches per annum - 2,484,000 -> There is also a large surplusage flowing down the stream to Newmiller Dam from the canal reservoir, besides numerous springs in the township of Woolley and Notton, yielding immense volumes of very beautiful water. In addition to the canal reservoir, comprising an area of 105 acres, there are two large sheets of water which now act as subsiding reservoirs, viz., Woolley Dam, containing 16 acres, and Newmiller Dam, of 30 acres, making a total of 150 acres of storing reservoirs all ready provided. } am, &c., G. Lushington, Esq. (Signed) Rowl AND CHILD.E. Secretary to Rivers Commission, Victoria Street, Westminster. Thomas SPENCER, Esq. (of London), examined. 1714. (Chairman.) You have been engaged for many years in practical chemistry –Yes, but I have been more especially connected with the chemistry of water since 1846. 1715. Speaking in round numbers, what extent of area in Great Britain, and what number of specimens of water do you think you have examined P-I have examined a great many, including samples from the watersheds for the supply of most large towns. Among the rest for Liverpool, Manchester, Bradford, Leeds, and Birmingham. I am consulting chemist for the Edinburgh Waterworks Company, and I have also examined the water of Glasgow, and Leith and Whitehaven. 1716. Have you examined the Metropolitan waters : —Yes, for the New River Company since 1854, and also for the Chelsea and Lambeth companies. I have also examined the water of this district for the Wakefield Water Company. 1717. Have you made yourself acquainted with the several modes of filtration in use, and with the effect which those modes of filtration have upon water –I have. 1718. Will you be kind enough briefly to describe the modes of filtration you are acquainted with for waterworks purposes?—First there is the ordinary mode with sand and gravel, Engineers differ some- what with regard to the thickness of the material in the beds, but from the year 1852 to 1854, when the London water companies were obliged by Govern- ment to filter the water, which experiments I was cognisant of, it was found that to get perfect mechanical filtration, about 6 feet 6 inches of ma- terial coarse and fine were required ; 12 or 15 inches of sand being placed at the top, from which was skimmed periodically some half an inch or an inch, the time varying with the weather. This mode never professed more than to give perfect mechanical fil. tration, that is to say, the matters in suspension were intercepted at the top layer of sand, and all the other part of the 6 feet 6 inches of stuff beneath merely served to retard the flow downwards, so as to let the water be as still at the top as possible. When the experiment was made with a less thickness of material it was found that the filtration was not so perfect. 1719. That mode of filtration, as you have said, merely separated the mud, or the flocculent particles combined with the water 2—It merely separated the particles you mention, in suspension in the water. 1720. Whatever they might be 2–Yes. 1721. It did not touch its chemical properties 2– No. 1722. Nor its discoloration ?— No. It is true, nevertheless, that when the water goes into the filters RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 49 a little discolored it comes out less discolored in many instances, but it is found that that loss of color is caused by getting rid of the very small colored particles that escape the eye, for in passing the same water through a thickness or two of filtering paper, all such suspended matters are equally well intercepted, and the difference of color is the same. The change is very trifling, you could not see it in a glass. It is only in a large body of water that any difference of color can be seen. Such difference of color arises merely from the interception of small mechanical colored particles. 1723. Are there modes of filtration which affect water chemically as well as mechanically —Charcoal of course has been used from time immemorial. 1724. Both wood charcoal and animal charcoal — Yes, for decoloration. I have also made experi- ments with charcoal, and find that when put under pressure, and the pores thoroughly stopped up with water, the substance becomes water-logged, so that the action ceases. No doubt there is a decoloring action, as the pores of the charcoal secrete oxygen more than they do carbonic acid or the nitrogen of the atmosphere. Supposing charcoal is put in a moist atmosphere its pores will be filled with air, and when that air is analysed it will be found that it contains a larger proportion of oxygen than the air with which it was placed in contact. 1725. You would say that there was a strong affinity between charcoal, and oxygen 2–Yes, and so it is with water. We find in round numbers 20 per cent. of oxygen in the ordinary atmosphere, but very often in pure soft water we find as much as 45 per cent. of oxygen, showing that water has an affinity for oxygen. Of course water gets oxygen from the at- mosphere with which it is in contact. On the other hand, in the case of less pure water, the amount of oxygen varies from 20 to 35 per cent, but it is very bad water indeed if the air which is contained in it does not amount to more than the quantity that we breathe in the atmosphere. Even impure water con- tains about 26 or 28 per cent. of oxygen. 1726. Having made yourself acquainted with the filtering qualities of sand, and also with the chemical effects of charcoal, did it occur to you that some- thing additional was required to work a change in water that was chemically contaminated 3–It did. I may add, as to charcoal, that in small filters— domestic filters—it lasts a longer time than when under the pressure of water, because in small filters it is used intermittently, and with no particular pressure upon it, whereas when it is placed under pressure for 24 hours, or even a shorter time, it is deprived of its powers; but in small filters charcoal has no power of destroying organic matter. Animal charcoal seems to secrete organic matter within its pores, and after a certain time becomes powerless, and then if it is kept it smells as most persons know who have had filters in use for a long time. 1727. Have you recently seen a recommendation of Professor Frankland to purify all the London water by bone charcoal —Yes; and I wrote to him to in- quire upon what grounds he had made that statement. He said in reply that he had made some magnetic oxide by precipitation, and that he had tested it against animal charcoal; that the water he had used was the water supplied by the West Middlesex Com- pany, and he found that the animal charcoal purified better than the magnetic oxide. My reply is, that I have always stated that precipitated mag- netic oxide is not a purifier at all, nor is natural magnetic oxide; and indeed, in a pamphlet which I published on the subject, I said that if even a chemist were living upon a stratification composed of natural magnetic oxide (and the same of precipitated oxide), he would never discover that it was a purifier of water ; yet it has no doubt a purifying effect, but so little that it would be set down to mere filtration, and not to any chemical or physical action. He also stated that he had never tried my material, but would do so if I would send him a filter. As, however, they 17159.-2, are to be had publicly, he may use his own discretion in regard to the matter. I think it probable that the Commissioners may remember the Mersey and Irwell inquiry with regard to the fouling of these rivers with furnace ashes. I was engaged by the mill owners with Dr. Letheby, and we showed, or endeavoured to show, that the iron contained in the ashes did much to purify the little streams into which the sewage runs. Dr. Frankland and Dr. Hoffman came forward to give evidence that this was not so, and that the iron had no such power. Upon that occasion Dr. Letheby on the bank of one of the small rivers immediately below where a pile of ashes was placed, took a handful of ashes and put it into the filtering paper ; he then took some of the logwood water which was passing out from the mill on the bank of the stream, and purified it perfectly; it came out perfectly bright. We them did the same with some sewage water, and all smell and all apparent impurity were got rid of Our evidence was founded on that occasion on a series of such facts. 1728. Were you led to recommend that the ashes should be put into the river ?—We were led to this, that if an Act made it imperative that this iron ash should be kept out of the river, the district would have to be drained and sewered better, or else the sewage which ran into the little streams which are the common sewers of the district, would create a greater evil than the ashes do now. 1729. If both ashes and sewage were kept out of the river I suppose it would be an advantage and the water would be more pure ?—No doubt of it. 1730. If you were called upon to provide means to keep those rivers unpolluted, I suppose you would recommend that both those causes of contamination should be kept out 2–Yes, I should recommend that every pollution should be kept out of the rivers, but my experience tends to show that rivers are less polluted by sewage than by chemical and other refuse. 1731. What class of chemical works do you refer to 2–I mean such as the works of alkali makers, soap makers, gasworks, dyeworks, and a variety of others. 1732. Do you know whether gas can be made with- out passing any impurities into rivers ; and can the whole refuse be utilized —I believe it can, and so with alkali works. 1733. Probably also in the case of soapworks 2– Very probably. I may mention that there are modes of utilizing the whole of the sulphureous and other matters that come from alkali-works. 1734. If it were made imperative by law that manufacturers should adopt measures of prevention, you know that there are means by which pollution can be prevented —Certainly, in nearly all cases. 1735. With regard to dye works and other works of that class, do you think that any means could be adopted by which the greater part of the pollution could be prevented —No doubt. I know of no refuse, with the exception of that from starch, that could not be utilized, and even that might be. 1736. (Professor Way.) You mean the gluten liquid –Yes. 1737. I suppose it is easily precipitated ?–At the Springfield Starch Works, near Manchester, they have a patent for utilizing starch refuse; it has often come under my notice, because the nuisance is so very great. 1738. Are you of opinion that many of those sources of pollution can be not only avoided, but turned to profit —I am confident that they can. 1739. Consequently in any measure that may be carried out by-and-bye, there will be no difficulty in finding gentlemen to help the manufacturers out of their difficulties 2–I should say so. 1740. Do you think it is a hopeless case ?—By no In Cans. 1741. (Chairman.) It is a case of pounds, shillings, and pence –Yes, it is a question of money, and also of will. 1742. As in the case of smoke prevention, it can be done, but as it is not made imperative it is not done by dyers and chemical manufacturers, and all G. WAKE- FIELD. T. Spencer, Esq. 18 Oct. 1866. 50 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAKE- FIELD. T. Spencer, Esq. 18 Oct. 1866. -- other polluters of rivers and streams; but, I suppose, with regard to the utilization of chemical refuse, the field is a wide one 2–Yes, it is. 1743. And it has hardly yet been worked –In very few instances. - 1744. Although you may have acquired a considera- ble amount of knowledge already upon these subjects, I presume that you think there is still a great deal more to learn ?—Certainly. 1745. If you had the opportunity, you think you might make discoveries that would be far more bene- ficial than those you have already made –I am quite of that opinion. 1746. Necessity is said to be the mother of inven- tion ?–It has always been so. 1747. If you create the necessity first, you think that the invention will follow —No doubt this is generally so. With regard to utilizing the refuse dis- charged from the chemical manufactories in this country, I think there will be found but little difficulty. 1748. (Professor Way.) Including with chemical manufactories, manufactories in which chemicals are used, such as dyeworks – Yes. 1749. Will you be kind enough to explain to the Commission how and when the idea of using carbide first occurred to you, how you followed it out, and what success attended your efforts up to the present time 2–In my investigations as to water supply, I found one complaint in every district that I visited, that was that the springs were becoming everywhere less copious, and that the rivers were becoming more and more polluted. This appeared to be the inevitable result of the progress which the country was making in manufactures, and in the improvement of land. For the foundation of such land improvement, is draining, which implies carrying the rain water as quickly as possible into the nearest river and thence into the sea. It was said, also, and I believe with truth, that the rainfall was becoming less. Altogether, I saw that the question of purifying the water would be worth following out. Accordingly, knowing that spring water was very pure in certain districts, and much less so in others, I resolved to investigate the cause of this difference, believing that it was all alike when it had fallen on the surface, but that it acquired its purity from the nature of the rocks through which it percºlated. Comparing Malvern water with water from the red sandstone districts, I found that the water of Malvern was about the purest in England, whilst the water in the red sandstone districts was very much less pure, and that even where it percolated through a larger portion of rock than the Malvern water. For instance, in some cases, at the depth of 500 or 600 feet (to which wells have been sunk), it still retained a considerable portion of organic matter, and that organic matter retained a portion of the contaminating influences of the surface, for example, nitrogenous compounds and phosphates. This led me to the sup- position that there was no power of purification in the sandstone, though it contains much iron. After a series of experiments I found that the iron in the Malvern district was in a state of protoxide, or mag- netic oxide, whilst that in the red sandstone district was in a state of peroxide. I need not say that filtration experiments after this were easy. My first experiments were made with precipitated magnetic oxide, and I found sufficient to show me that it had a purifying property, but it being in a state of fine powder, the filtration was slow, and the purifying power not such as to induce one to say that it would answer upon a large scale. However, I re- tained the idea for some years, still with the hope of being able to find some mode of getting magnetic oxide of another character and less cost. Of course I first tried natural magnetic oxide, and I found that that would not do at all. I then got some of the white spathose ore which is a pure proto-carbonate of iron; it abounds largely in Austria, and is found sparingly in this country. After it had been sub- jected to a slight heat its carbonic acid was driven off, and a comparatively pure black magnetic oxide re- mained. I then tried an experiment with a glass of diluted port wine. I passed it through a little of the material, and I found it came out perfectly colourless. But that source failed me to a certain extent. The spathose ore was dear, and the oxide from it would soon have become reduced to powder and filtration would have been necessarily slow. The next idea was to de-oxidize the Cumberland hematite. I knew that if I could manage to get rid of an atom of the oxygen belonging to it, it being a per-oxide, the magnetic oxide would remain ; but as it was considered the most difficult of all ores to treat, in fact so pure that no iron maker could smelt it except in small quantities with poorer ores, I despaired of treating it. It required such an intense heat as I thought. Ultimately the idea came into my head that perhaps a less heat would do better, especially by putting something along with it which would combine with the atom of oxygen I wanted to get rid of. I mingled with it sawdust, and put it in a retort in my own kitchen fire, and a mag- netic material came out which purified water better than anything I had tried before, that is to say, better than any other magnetic oxide. It was, however, brittle, and therefore not suitable for ſilter beds where it might be required to be washed. The idea had not then come that it should be placed underneath the top sand and there be left alone, but my idea was that it should be mixed with the other material, and of course the matter that it intercepted would require to be washed out. To get over this difficulty by rendering this oxide less brittle, I put an extra quantity of carbon in the hope that it would combine with the oxide as carbon does with steel, and that it would become hard. This took place accordingly, and this is the substance which I have used in the several waterworks which have adopted my plan of purification. 1750. The magnetic oxide which you now use, after all your experience, you consider is one of the best purifiers of water that you are acquainted with ?–It certainly is. 1751. Will you state from what substances it puri- fies the water, you spoke of nitrates ?—It does not take out the nitrates, all that it takes out, or rather all that it destroys is organic matter. It takes out the iron, but the iron is not destroyed; the iron is left in the filter; for example, in Southport, where the process has been in use now for seven years. The works there were made and pipes laid down before the well was sunk, but the waters turned out to be chalybeate water. Of course the company went on pumping, thinking the evil was merely temporary. However, after pumping for several months, the iron still continued to come and no one would take the water. I was then asked whether I thought carbide would take out the iron, and I said that I thought it would, though the great object of it was to take out organic matters. Samples of the water were sent to me, and it was found that the carbide took out the iron effectually. We put carbide into the filter beds, and they have been at work now for nearly seven years, and the Southport people boast of having as pleasant water to drink as any town in Lancashire. We made the filter beds so that they could be flushed upwards to take out the iron which had been attracted out by the magnetic oxide. Once in two or three weeks, sometimes once a month, those filter beds are flushed from below, and the iron water comes up like so much peasoup, and goes out into a gutter, and then the material works as vigorously as it did at first. The engineer who has the superintendence of the works says that it works far better than it did at first, that it has been improved. Salts of lime and other things in the pores got washed out. 1752. From what formation does the water of Southport come 2–It comes from the new red sand- stone, and not far from an extensive peaty bog. 1753. Does the chalybeate come from the bog?— Probably, though there are in this district pots of ironstone in places in the sandstone. 1754, Has the chalybeate anything to do with the RHYERS COMMISSION:--MENUPES OF EVIDENCE, 5] coal measures?—Ishould not say so, because there are no coal pits very near. 1755. You are aware that there is some singularly pure water in that same sandstone, the Ormskirk water, for instance —Yes, that is exceedingly pure. 1756. And the Wallasey water –They are both about the same. 1757. Not exceeding five degrees in hardness?-- The Ormskirk water I have found it to be at five degrees and at seven. 1758. Of what quality is the Green Lane water — When I first analysed it, it was five degrees. It is now nearer 12 or 13. 1759. Has it been increased by over pumping :- Yes; I may mention that at Southport there is a large proportion of organic matter in the water as well, and the carbide deprives it of the organic matter and the iron at one and the same time. 1760. What are the organic substances or bodies that are most injurious, and which the carbide deals with most effectually —That which chemists usually call organic matters arise from the soakings of decayed vegetation. When we find nitrates or phosphates we set down their origin to animal matters. Not that nitrates or phosphates are injurious in themselves; on the contrary, a little nitrate of potash in water is a very good thing. They are objectionable chiefly because their presence only denotes their origin in animal impurity. 1761. Does the carbide deal in the slightest degree with common salt —No. 1762. Is there not a large amount of common salt in the Southport water —Not so much as there is in some of the Liverpool wells, but from five to six grains, and that seems constant. I thought at first when I found it that it might come from some fissures where sea water comes in, but seeing that it is so constant, I now think it belongs to the stratification. 1763. The new red sandstone is a great salt-bearing stratification, is it not ?—No doubt it is. Perhaps you will permit me to explain the action of the car- bide upon organic matter. This magnetic substance attracts and secretes oxygen in its pores, and all water, as I at first stated, has a considerable pro- portion of oxygen. When this oxygen, after its attraction by the carbide, comes into contact with the organic matter it becomes changed into carbonic acid. I have already stated in print my firm belief that the magnetic oxide has the power of ozonizing oxygen, and it is all but universally believed now that ozone is merely a double atom of oxygen. Now, as carbonic acid is made up of one atom of carbon and a double atom of oxygen, and seeing that the result of the puri- fication of the water which passes through carbide is an increase of carbonic acid, I arrive at the con- clusion that the carbide changes the organic matter into carbonic acid. A very nearly similar operation goes on in our lungs; the oxygen which comes in seizes the carbon with which the blood is charged, and immediately becomes carbonic acid. We have the same process going on in the water which passes through the carbide, inasmuch as we find less carbonaceous matter after filtration, and more carbonic acid than we found previously. Brown coloured peat water for example (which possesses a large amount of organic matter), when passed through a considerable thick- ºness of the carbide, comes out sparkling, as if carbonic acid had been forced into it as in soda-water making. 1764. 1 assume that before attempting to treat this Wakefield water you analysed the water in the state in which you found it –Yes. 1765. And then you advised the company as to whether the carbide would be beneficial or otherwise 2 – reported to the company in its favour only after making several analyses, and examining all the dis- trict around to see where an unobjectionable supply of water could be had. I then advised them to adopt the present method of purification; but I confess that I did not give them hopes that the water would be as pure as spring water, and I think that I should have hesitated evº: more than Ti did had I heard the evidence which I have heard to-day with regard to the amount of impurity which gets into this river. I was not aware at the time that the foulness was so great. Still I told the company that its thorough purification was a question of quantity, and that nine inches of carbide would render their water as good a water for the supply of a town as most towns had. stated that the organic matter would not be all taken out unless there was a layer of some 12 or 15 inches; but still that nine inches of carbide would render the water a very good town supply, and I cannot help saying that so far that result has been obtained ; but while I say this I must also state that there is more water passing through the present filter beds than I intended should pass through. 1766. You are aware that they are enlarging them 2 —Yes. When you take into consideration the time for cleansing, I should say that there is more water by nearly one half passing through than I had con- templated. 1767. (Professor Way.) That is because time is an element 2–Yes. 1768. (Chairman.) What number of gallons would you like to pass through a square yard of the surface in 24 hours ?–If you gave me an unlimited thickness of carbide I should be able to purify 1,000 gallons through every square yard in 24 hours : but with limited quantity, such as we have in Wakefield, I should say that not more than 500 gallons ought to pass through each square yard. 1769. (Professor Way.) Do you mean each super- ficial yard —Yes. 1770. But it must have some thickness P-Yes; give me a layer of carbide of any thickness, and the water will come out without any organic matter. 1771–2. When you say a superficial yard, what thick- ness do you mean :-That is regulated by the im- purity of the water. In the Wakefield beds we have, I think, nine inches, with some sand along with it. (Mr. Sykes.) That makes it 15; we were at first about to adopt six, but at Mr. Spencer's sugges- tion we adopted nine. (Mr. Spencer.) I remember that, on one occasion, I found the water in a worse state than I had ever seen it before. 1773. (Professor Way.) It resolves itself into the length of time that each individual atom of water is in contact with the material *-That no doubt is so. 1774. Therefore, if the liquid passes through it at a rapid pace the action is not complete –That is so. 1775. But, so far as it goes, will the purification have any relation to the time?– No doubt. 1776. More of the organic matter will be burnt out in a longer time 2–Yes. 1777. (Chairman.) I suppose that the action follows a great chemical law, that combustion, as it is termed, is a combination of new elements, and that time must come into play?—Time, I need not say, is an element in every natural operation, and carbide filtration is no exception. 1778. In the explosion of gunpowder there is no such thing as perfect combustion, because the time does not admit of it 2–Just so. 1779. If you set up a furnace to consume foul gases, however intense you make the heat of that furnace, some of the gases will escape unconsumed 2– That is so, and it illustrates the slower combustion, if I may so speak, that takes place in the water. 1780. To produce perfect combustion you want a new substance, but you also want the element of time? —Yes. 1781. So as to allow the particles to act and re-act upon each other, and to change their character —Yes. 1782. Combustion, as the word is used and is under- stood vulgarly, has no meaning, if it means destruc- tion ?–Just so, without the visible production of another element. - 1783. It is a change, in fact –Yes. 1784. What we mean by combustion is changing one element into another?—That is so, or one sub- stance into another. WAKE- FIELD. T. Spencer, Esq. 18 Oct. 1866. G 2 52 RIVERS COMMISSION :–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAIXE- FIELD. T. Spencer Esq. > 18 Oct. 1866. 1785. Altering its character?—Altering its cha- racter. 1786. A substance is injurious in one form, but you alter its character by what is termed combustion, and it becomes non-injurious?—Just so. 1787. And that is the effect which you desire to produce by carbide filtration ?--Precisely. 1788. Is it not commonly said that it is impossible to make water which is once impure bright by any- thing but mechanical filtration ?–Yes, that is said generally. - 1789. And that there is no such thing as chemical filtration ?—That is so. 1790. But you say that there is chemical filtration ? —I call it physical filtration. 1791. (Mr. Harrison.) You are aware that the water at Wakefield has a considerable quantity of iron in it 2–Yes. 1792. Have you tried whether the iron is removed from the Wakefield water by this process?—Yes; there is very little left—there is nothing which interferes with the water for a town supply; there is no more iron in it and rather less than in the ordinary chalk water of the London district. 1793. And a considerable quantity is removed from the water –Yes; but I believe that much of the iron which used to be in the Wakefield water, when a part of it came through the gravel wells, was precipitated in the subsiding reservoir—for we made experiments on the water as it came in and as it was pumped out, and we found that there was less iron in that which came out from the reservoir. 1794. Have you analyses which show the difference of the water as it passed into your filters and out of them —Yes; but iron has not been an element thought of since the use of the carbide. The Wakefield Com- pany never delivered, to my knowledge, even pre- viously to my filtration, water with an objectionable portion of iron in it ; had it been so we should have made special experiments upon the point, but as the water was never objectionable on that account after it got up to the filter beds, we took little account of it. But in making analyses of the water since, the small proportion of iron which was left was of course noted. 1795. Is organic matter which we find in water derived from either vegetable or animal refuse ?—Yes. 1796. What is the striking difference between the two –For example, if you soak vegetable matter and animal matter you will find on analysis that they both contain carbonaceous matter largely, but that the animal soakings contain nitrates and phosphates, or rather their elements, for it is a long time before nitric acid is formed, and a long time before phos- phoric acid is formed. 1797. Then, if I understand you rightly, the presence of nitrogen is indicatory of animal matter – Yes. 1798. As to nitrogen contained in organic matter in water, how is it affected by the carbide —Not in any way. 1799. How are nitrogenous matters affected?— Nitrogenous matters are spoken of very loosely in chemical analyses, they are generally indicated; in the report nitrates, and those may be nitrates of lime or nitrates of magnesia, or nitrates of soda, but they are generally very small. They must first be formed into nitric acid before they become nitrates, but they are then perfectly harmless, and they are only spoken of as indicating that the water has passed over or through animal matter. 1800. And if you could show us that the nitrogen in the organic matter was in the form of nitric acid or nitrates, there would be an end of the question, but if there is nitrogenous matter in the water not in the form of nitric acid, or nitrates of any kind, is it at all affected by the carbide?—The carbide would destroy the carbonaceous portion belonging to what you would call nitrogenous matter, and in so doing destroy its putrescent power. But it is hardly the proper term— that however is the usual mode of putting it. 1801. (Professor Way.) Carbonaceous matters, you say, are laid hold of by the carbide, and are converted into carbonic acid –That is organic matter—usually a large proportion of which might be called humic acid in solution. 1802. Does the carbide deal with and get rid of, so far as the objection is concerned, matter which is not only carbonaceous, but which contains as one of its elements nitrogen. For instance, supposing that the water contained animal matter in the nature of gluten, would your oxydizing medium oxydize and destroy it 2–It has the effect of promoting its change into ammonia. 1803. Then it is oxydized and destroyed 2–Yes, and afterwards it becomes nitric acid. 1804. But it destroys it so far us being injurious 2 —No doubt it does. 1805. Whether the material in the water be nitro- genous or carbonaceous, or both, the carbide lays hold of it and changes its nature, and converts it into different bodies which are not injurious –Yes. In order to illustrate that I may state that I have taken pieces of raw beef and have mixed it up with the carbide, and have kept it moist for two or three weeks. No smell ever arose ; but on examining the beef I found that it had rotted, that is to say, that you could bruise it when dry like so much rotten wood. 1806. (Mr. Harrison.) If, as you stated to Professor Way just now, the carbide had had the effect of con- verting the nitrogen into ammonia, would not the ammonia have escaped and have caused a smell of some kind or another ?—I did not make this experi- ment with regard to water, but simply to see the effect of the carbide upon animal matter. The truth is that I thought that the carbide might be made a preservative. 1807. (Professor Way.) And you found it just the contrary 3–Yes; so much is its tendency to rot or destroy organic substances that the bags in which we carry the carbide form a serious item, for the carbide rots holes in them, especially if the bag is kept in rain, or if the railway truck is not covered. 1808. It changes it, in point of fact –It does, and destroys it. 1809. Is it not the fact that matters which in their slow combustion, that is to say, in fermentation or putrefaction, would produce smells, may be carried through those stages so that the smells never become apparent —Yes. 1810. So that, instead of causing the stages of gradual destruction in which gases which stink are produced and are injurious, you may carry a substance right through those stages at once to the ultimate con- dition so that it never smells at all —Yes, by the carbide, far more quickly than by any other process which I know. 1811. That, I presume, is to be done by other pro- cesses than the carbide —Yes. 1812. Spongy platinum does it —Yes. 1813. And animal charcoal does it —Yes, to some extent, 1814. Is it not the fact that mechanical filtration does, to a certain extent, purify water chemically. Would you not tell Mr. Simpson, of the Chelsea Waterworks, that his filtration does to a certain extent purify water from organic matter in solution ?— It is true there is somewhat less of organic matter in the water of the London companies after filtration than before, but this is due not only to the mechanical effect of filtration, but to the sand which they use hav- ing a portion of iron in it. Thus we found that pure white silver sand had no effect upon the purification of water beyond the ordinary mechanical one, but whenever the sand contained oxide of iron we found an effect. The same took place with regard to the sand in the Liverpool filter beds. After I had arrived at a knowledge of the carbide, and knowing that some small purifying effect was produced by filtration on the Liverpool water, I took a magnet and ran it through the sand, and it came up covered with par- ticles of iron oxyde. On inquiring where the sand came from, which was said to be the best filtering RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 53 sand which they had had among a great many sands, we found that it came from the mouth of the river at Preston, and that the river received all the ashes of furnaces, These, in fact, were porous pieces of car- bide, which no doubt had come from the cinders, and they were analogous to the carbide which I now make. 1815. When you say carbide of iron, do you believe that it is a carbide of iron, or is that a convenient name 2–It is a convenient commercial name. 1816. Because it is made in that way ?—Carbon is necessary to be in it in order to make it hard, but it does not take it in always in atomic proportions. 1817. It is not its chemical name 2—No. 1818. It is a magnetic oxyde of iron —Yes; and yet a magnetic oxyde of iron, as such, does not answer. Chemically speaking, it is a magnetic oxyde of iron containing carbon. 1819. With regard to its action, is the secretion of oxygen which you speak of, from the air, a secretion of oxygen bodily in the pores as a mechanical action, or is it a combination of oxygen to form a higher oxyde of iron —My view is that the oxygen is secreted physically. The magnetic oxide has an affinity for oxygen but not the power to take it up. 1820. Without saying why this magnetic oxyde (so-called carbide) attracts oxygen into its pores, you simply say that it seems to have the power of secreting oxygen in a physical condition ?—That is my con- clusion. 1821. Not that it becomes a peroxyde of iron, for instance —Not at all. 1822. The next stage is this—organic matters of different kinds, both non-nitrogenous and nitrogenous, come in solution in the water to the pores and to the surfaces of this carbide, and are received as oxygen 2 —Yes. 1823. And they become altered and burnt into different compounds 2–Yes. 1824. Do you suppose that these organic matters reduce any of that magnetic oxyde to a lower degree of oxydation ?—I suppose not. 1825. It still remains untouched 2–Yes. In South- port, where the process has been used for the longest time, they have not applied to me for any additional carbide, but as they are now going to give a larger supply of water, I may have an order for more. 1826. At all events we may take the fact that you do not believe that it undergoes any chemical change either when it receives the oxygen, which it subse- quently loses, or when it loses that oxygen —My belief amounts to a certainty in these respects. 1827. That being so, the thing to be done so soon as that oxygen is exhausted is to replace it, is it not ?– Yes. 1828. Is it replaced to any great extent by the water carrying oxygen with it —No doubt it is, be- cause when distilled water has been put into a steam vacuum containing no oxygen, and organic matter has been put into the water, and the water has been passed through the carbide in closed-up vessels, the organic matter has remained. 1829. That is an experiment which you have made 2 —Yes. 1830. Do you think that in the case of rivers, for instance, you can trust that there is oxygen enough in the water for oxydation of organic matter which is in the water 2–Usually so—though in times of drought, when the water is very bad, I have recommended Mr. Sykes to allow the filters once a day to lie fallow, if it is even for half an hour. 1831. For the purpose of getting the air through them —Yes, in order to get a fresh supply of oxygen to recruit them. 1832. I suppose that if those facts were once ascer- tained, and if the value of your material was recog- mised, there might be improvements in the form of the filter P-No doubt. 1833. So that there might be better ačration ?— Yes. I have introduced a mode of filtration, which is used at Wakefield and at several other places. It is to be introduced at the Calcutta Waterworks, which are now being made. There we can have only 3 feet of material, and if there is not room for 3 feet we could even do with less, and the same mechanical filtering results would be obtained. It would require a drawing to explain the mode of filtration, but it combines the descending and ascending mode and very simply. It has made a saving in the estimates of the Calcutta Waterworks of 42,000l. for the filter beds alone, the beds thus requiring less wall, and less thickness of sand and gravel and lest lift of water. 1834. That is a difference of 42,000l. for the mere shape of construction ?–Yes, because much less head of water is required. I always recommend as thin a head of water as possible. The first part of the works is to give 8,000,000 gallons. I was driven to this mode of filtration by necessity; the fact of the black and heavy particles of the carbide being carried down along with the water drove me to endeavour to invent a mode of obviating it. 1834a. Last evening we went with Mr. Sykes to the waterworks. We examined some of the water as it came into your filter beds and as it left them, and undoubtedly there was a very considerable difference in the colour of the two. Is it likely that the remark which you made with reference to the Chelsea water and other waters, which being filtered through paper, had lost their colour, owing to the extremely minute portions of coloured matter, merely matter in mecha- nical suspension, having been removed from them, applies to the sample which I saw last evening 2–I do not think so, because the London companies' water goes in from the river without subsidence, but here it subsides, which with water so mechanically impure, is half the battle. 1835. Have you tried your material on such liquids as coffee and wine —On wine. 1836. Does it take out the colour of wine 2–If the layer is sufficiently thick it takes out the colour entirely. 1837. Will it remove the colour of a solution of coffee, for instance 2–I have not tried it on coffee. The witness withdrew. Mr. Rob ERT DENT (Wakefield) examined. 1838. (Chairman.) What are you ?—A dyer. 1839. Where are your dyeworks situated ? – At Belle Isle. 1840. What number of persons do you employ upon your works —About 100 when we are at full work; about 70 now, perhaps. 1841. Are your works situated upon the banks of the river ?—Yes. 1842. How long have your works been situated there?—We have tenanted them about three years. The greater portion of the place is perhaps from 80 to 100 years old; it has been enlarged at different times. 1843. How long do you remember this river?—I have known it ever since I was a child. 1844. Is it worse or better now than it was when you knew it first 2–It is worse. 1845. How long have you been a dyer –I have been a dyer for Mr. Holdsworth about 17 years. I have worked there 40 years, on and off. Mr. Holds- worth is the landlord, and we are the tenants. The works have been divided. Mr. Holdsworth continues a por- tion of them, and we have the other portion. He has the cloth department, and we have the stuff. 1846. Do you use the water for dyeing and wash- ing 2–Yes. 1847. And have you used it all that time for dyeing and washing 2–Yes. 1848. Can you dye and wash the same colours now WAKE- FIELD. T. Spencer, Esq. 18 Oct. 1866. - Mr. R. Dent. -- G 3 54 . RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAKE- FIELD. - Mr. R. Dent. 18 Oct. 1866. as you could when you first began 2–I cannot say that ; the water is not so good for some colours. 1849. For what colours is it not so good?—Scarlets, crimsons, and yellows, and those delicate colours. 1850. Have you given over dyeing any of these colours on account of the badness of the water 2–No, we dye all colours that we did ; we take all that come, we do not send any away. - 1851. Do you think that as many of those choice co- lours—for instance,scarlets— come to you as formerly 2 —I believe that there are some that we cannot dye so well as we could 30 years since, for instance, scarlets or anything of that sort ; the colour is changed by the alkali. If the water is polluted by alkali the alkali will neutralize the acid, and turn it blue, and so rather injures the work. 1852. What kind of alkali do you think the water contains, alkali from soap works?—Yes, a great deal from soap works. 1853. Do you use any of the waterworks water for washing or dyeing –No. 1854. Have you any well upon your premises –We have a large reservoir. We always keep a full supply against a fresh, against an accident to the engine, or any breakdown. - 1855. You have a large reservoir in which you let the river water subside 2–Yes. - 1856. And you do not use the water directly as it flows or is pumped from the river ?–Only for washing, and for some colours which it will not injure. 1857. Do you use engine power P-Yes. 1858. What do you do with your ashes?—We put them all into a boat and take them away. 1859. On the river ?–No, we make a great heap, and we let anyone have them for carting them away. 1860. You do not put them into the river ?—No. 1861. Do you think that the condition of the river now is such as is desirable, or that it ought to be im- proved?—It is not so good as it was 20 years since. We can dye with the river water a great deal better at sometimes than at others. After a long drought the water is very low, and then it is worse than at other times; but when the water is at a pretty fair height I do not know that we have any particular reason to complain. 1862. If it has grown worse within the last ten years, do you think that if it is left alone it will grow worse in the next ten years?—I believe that it will if there are not some means used to prevent it. - 1863. In your opinion, should it be prevented or would you leave matters to go on as they have gone on 2–I think that if means could be found to prevent it it would be a very good thing for both the dyers and the manufacturers of the town. 1864. I suppose that you, too, pollute the river?— Yes, all that we have to spare we put into it. 1865. Spent material from the dye vats?—Yes, a great portion of that, not all. 1866. Do you use much indigo 2–No, Mr. Holds- worth uses indigo largely. 1867. What do you do with the spent material, and the refuse which you produce –Some portion of it goes into the river, and some we get out; we boil it in bags, where it does not injure we put it into vessels, - 1868. I suppose that there would not be any very great hardship in manufacturers being compelled to keep out all the spent wood, madders, and logwoods, and so on ?—I do not know that it might not be over- COIne. 1869. But I suppose that you do not feel inclined to overcome it if left alone P-I do not feel inclined to be at the expense of overcoming it myself. Mr. Holdsworth is the landlord, and I think that he is the person who should do it. I could not stop my business for it ; I have not made my fortune yet. 1870. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you aware that in the upper part of the river, above Huddersfield and other places, manufacturers tip a considerable quantity of ashes into the river ?–No, I am not. 1871. Can you tell me how it is that you manufac- turers lower down on the Calder do not follow their example?—We dare not do so for an hour long, we are always watched. 1872. By whom are you watched?—By the Aire and Calder Company; Mr. Richardson is the person. 1873. Then the Aire and Calder Company have the power of preventing you putting ashes into the river ? —Yes; I have known a case of a man accidentally letting a barrowfull go into the beck, and tumbling in with them himself; he has been reported. 1874. We had evidence this morning from the man who dredges the river, that he not only dredges up ashes but a quantity of spent logwood and other materials from the dyeworks. Does not the naviga- tion company prevent you from putting your refuse into the river ?–No, nothing but ashes. 1875. The other refuse slips more quietly in than ashes would —Yes. 1876. If the Aire and Calder Company knew of it would they say anything to you about it 2–I am not aware, but I think that they do know. 1877. (Chairman.) I suppose that if you had not this inspection, the probability is that some of your ashes would accidentally tumble in . I do not know that ; we have servants to take them away, and Mr. Holdsworth has put his ashes on to his land, and levelled his land. 1878. With ashes?—Yes. Adjoining to Mr. Wedd's mill there is about an acre of land where we have thrown all our ashes, excepting the time when the railway company took them. 1879. (Mr. Harrison.) How do you take the ashes to that heap 2–We wheel them by barrows into the boat. 1880. And then you have to get them again out of the boat?—Into carts if anybody wants them. 1881. At what expense are you per ton in removing those ashes to that spot?–1t will perhaps take three men a couple of days loading and delivering a cargo at 3s, a day. 1882. (Professor Way.) How much is a cargo?– About 20 tons, from 16 to 20 tons. I do not know exactly. - 1883. (Mr. Harrison.) That is an expense to which you are put in the lower part of the river which the dyers and others in the upper parts where they tip into the beck are not put to ?---Yes. 1884. (Professor Way.) What dyes do you mostly use?—We use more logwood than anything else; I think Honduras generally speaking. 1885. I suppose that in smaller quantities you use very many different kinds of woods?—Yes, we use peach wood and fustic logwood. 1886. But logwood is the principal quantity ?— Yes. 1887. In emptying the different dye-vats into the water, which are the most coloured liquids —The liquid from logwood, is black; from peach wood it is red. That is the deepest colouring matter running into the water; the liquid will be red like blood and will foam up ; still it might not really be much stronger than logwood is. We consider that all the strength has gone out before the liquid goes into the I’IVel’. 1888. You use it as far as you can 2–Yes. 1889. But still it has a considerable colour when it goes in 2–Yes. --- - 1890. Does it colour the stream at the time that it is going in 3-Yes. 1891. How often are the vats emptied, once or twice a day --Some are emptied once a day, and some, perhaps, may be emptied two or three times a day; it depends upon the quantity of work, and the facilities with which they have to work. 1892. But no day, except Sunday, ever passes with- out a vat being emptied ?–No. - 1893. What are the sizes of the vats, what do they hold?—We call them cisterns; they vary from 100 gallons to 500 or 600 gallons. - - 1894. If we were to say that 1,000 gallons are RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 55 emptied everyday, should we be above or below the mark 2–There are above 1,000 gallons. --> 1895. Out of the vats?–Yes. 1896. That is apart from washing :-Yes. 1897. There is the wash water besides –Yes. . 1898. Which is more or less coloured P-That is not much coloured. - - 1899. Is the liquid from peach wood transparent, can you see through it?–Yes. 1500. It would not settle?–No, except there were any dregs in it. - 1901. It would not become clear like water by standing 2–No. - 1902. And with logwood the case is the same — Yes. - 1903. The stuff is in solution ?—Yes. 1904, You have not made any vats or anything to try and separate the solid —No. - 1905. Does your landlord do anything of that kind?—No ; we have thought of seeing Messrs. Teall to collect our soap. - 1906. You do not even do that -No ; we do not know whether it would be worth while for Messrs. Teall to do it, as we do not use soap to so large an extent as some persons do. " 1907. Have you space on your premises for making vats or subsiding reservoirs on a moderate scale if you wished to do so?—I cannot tell what sort of a place would be wanted exactly. 1908. Have you a yard 2–Yes. 1909. (Chairman.) As big as this room *-Yes, as big as this house altogether. 1910. (Professor Way.) Is it generally the case that dyers are cramped for room, or have they usually plenty of room?—Latterly they have begun to build differently, or else, generally speaking, they used to be cramped, but I believe that now they are not so. 1911. As a rule they have some room to spare?— Yes, generally. The witness 1912. Is it so generally, in this district 2–Ours is the only place in the district where stuffs are dyed. 1913. But many woollen manufacturers dye for themselves?—I do not know that. Manufacturing is not my business. - - 1914. (Chairman.) You dye stuffs –Yes. 1915. Bradford stuffs –Yes. --- - 1916. Bradford cloths –We do not dye much cloth. 1917. (Professor Way.) Do you think that you waste anything of value?—I daresay that we do sometimes; we are obliged to do so, but I can assure you that we do not when we can help it. 1918. Are you speaking of turning in a dye val before the dye is exhausted 2–Yes. - 1919. But, speaking generally, supposing that a vat has been worked up to its utmost, is there anything in it of value that could be reclaimed?—I think not, excepting soap. - 1920. Do you use any large quantity of tin 2–We use it but to no great extent. 1921. What you do use goes away with the stuff'P —We consider that the goods take a certain portion of the tin, or we should not put it in. Tin has an affinity for the dye wares. - 1922. (Chairman.) Is there anything further which you wish to add to your evidence 2–I do not know that there is, except that Mr. Holdsworth is not at home, and he wished me to invite you, gentlemen, to come down and inspect the works, if you had time, before you went away. --- 1923. I suppose that the evidence which you have given with regard to your own works would apply to Mr. Holdsworth’s works?—Yes. 1924. (Mr. Harrison.) His works are indigo works –Yes, but his slack refuse goes down the same drain as ours. - 1925. (Chairman.) Are his works larger than yours?—No, ours is the largest portion. withdrew, - Mr. MATTHEw B. Hick (Wakefield) examined. 1926. (Chairman.) In what business are you ?–I am a copperas manufacturer. 1927. Where are your works situated —On West- gate Common, by the side of the Ings Beck on the river Charld. 1928. (Professor Way.) By sulphate of iron —Yes. 1929. You make it for logwood dyers principally * —Yes, and for making nitrate of iron liquid. 1930. Which is used as a mordant —Yes. 1931. Do you make it from metallic iron –From iron pyrites. - 1932. By roasting –No, by percolation. The rain percolates through the bed of pyrites into cellars. 1933. Is the liquid pumped up again –Yes, and then we apply more iron to produce peroxide of iron. 1934. Does it take a long time?—ſt takes about a fortnight to get the proper strength for crystalizing. It is as neutral a salt as we can get. - copperas you mean 1935. Does the pyrites heat 2–No. 1936. Is it heated artificially?—No. 1937. Is that iron pyrites or copper pyrites ?–Iron pyrites. 1938. With no copper in it 2–1 believe not. 1939. Have you used the Spanish –No ; I have seen it, but have not used it. 1940. You do not know whether that would be suitable to you ?–It would be much more expensive. 1941. But you would sell the copper as a rebate afterwards 2—I have only seen it, but have not tried any of it. º You evaporate it in pans, and crystalize it? – Les. 1943. The vats into which this matter runs, I sup- pose, are tight; you do not lose any of the liquid – Just so. They are all lead coolers, and there is a plug. None is wasted. We boil the liquid over again. 1944. Does all the iron pyrites disappear by de- grees —I suppose that the pyrites does, but of course there is a great deal of coal dust and refuse which we have to cart away afterwards. 1945. What do you do with that ?—We send it to the brick ponds, or anything of that sort. 1946. Of what size are the heaps ?–It is one large bed. I should think that it is half an acre. 1947. How long would it take to oxydize a ton, for instance, or 20 tons —I do not know, but it will take years. It is four or five years before it begins. 1948. Then you have one bed in preparation, and one bed at work –It is all one bed. We begin at one end of it, and keep leading on the new pyrites at certain places, and take the old away to the far end. We replenish it. It takes four or five years before we begin to do much with it. 1949. You simply expose it to the rain P-Yes, and if there is no rain we water it. 1950. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the thickness?— Five or six feet in some places. 1951. (Chairman.) Where does the pyrites come from ?—From coal pits in the neighbourhood. 1952. Is it in the roof or in the floor of the coal 2 —It is mostly found in about the middle of the seam of coal. 1953. It is what would be called bass, I suppose ; if it went away with the coal it would burn into a white ash –No, it would not buri; ; it would crack and fly about. 1954. Then it is that portion which causes explo- sions when it gets into the fire –Yes. 1955. (Professor Way.) I suppose you riddle it out of the small coal?—Yes. - 1956. Do you get any alum salt --No; there are alum works in the neighbourhood, and they would get all that. - - - - - 1957. Do they supply you ?–No. 1958. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the price of the WAKE- FIELD. - Mr. R. Dent. 18 Oct. 1866. --- Mr. M. B. Hick. G 4 56 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WAKE- FIELD. Mr. M. B. Hick. 18 Oct. 1866. T. Spencer, Esq. 19 Oct. 1866. sulphate of iron which you manufacture ?—From 31. to 4!. a ton. 1959. Are you aware that in South Wales, in the manufacture of tin plate, from some of the works they throw away large quantities of the liquor, which you are at great trouble in collecting 2–I know that that has been the case. They are using it now I think. 1960. In some of the works, but by no means uni- versally. In some very large works which we visited a short time ago they will not take the trouble to extract the sulphate of iron, but they allow a part to pass into the brook, which you here take as a material for regular manufacture ?—I was not aware of that. 1961. (Professor Way.) Is the consumption very large in this neighbourhood —Not very large. The trade is principally in our hands. 1962. One of the witnesses told us just now that he was not using iron, either for indigo or for logwood —No, they use more now of bi-chromate of potash. 1963. It is more expensive, but a small quantity of it goes a long way ?—Yes. When these copperas works began the copperas sold at 15l. a ton. 1964. (Chairman.) Do you pollute the river at all ? —Not at all. - 1965. How long have you known the river ?–For 20 years. 1966. Is it more polluted now than it was when you first knew it 2–Very much. 1967. Do you think that it is necessary to do some- thing to stop that pollution ?—I do indeed. About a year ago there was very little rain, and one night I observed that the river below the bridge was in a frightful state. It was boiling up, and was all black and dirty, and it stunk frightfully. 1968. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you tell us what the chemical process is by which upon the application of water to the iron pyrites the sulphate of iron becomes soluble —The oxygen enters into combination with the pyrites, and forms an oxide, which becomes soluble, and it is washed through in a liquid form into the cellars. 1969. The sulphuret of iron is changed into a sul- phate 2–Yes. 1970. This process which you adopt is of a some- what similar character to that which takes place with sulphate of iron. The oxygen is gradually taken up by the iron pyrites ?—Yes. 1971. By the sulphuret of iron 2–Just so. I have dyeworks as well, but I do not work them. They are worked by Messrs. Benton. 1972. (Professor Way.) Do any means occur to you of dealing with the river ?—I think that it would be the grandest thing which could be accomplished if a national scheme could be carried out, and an immense drain made through the valleys similar to what has been done in London with the great sewer, separating the sewage from the Thames. 1973. (Chairman.) You would take some means by which the entire valley could be purified ?–Yes. 1974. And every work upon the river benefited ? -—Yes. 1975. How is the Ings Beck polluted 2–By refuse from dyeworks below my premises. Above my pre- mises it is pretty clear and good. 1976. The dyeworks turn in all their fluid refuse ? —Yes. 1977. (Mr. Harrison.) All those below you? — Yes. - 1978. But you do not do so yourself?—We do from our dye-house below. 1979. (Professor Way.) But you are not working there 2–No, but it goes from there. 1980. (Chairman.) Do you know a single dyeworks in all Yorkshire which is not polluting the water in some way or other ?–No. 1981. Is there anything further which you wish to add '-No, except that it would be most desirable if some scheme could be adopted to prevent the fouling of the rivers in the manner in which they are fouled. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 11 o'clock. Wakefield, Friday, 19th October 1866. PRESENT : ROBERT RAWLINSON, ESQ., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THORNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Professor John THOMAS WAY. THOMAS SPENCER, Dsq., further examined. 1982. (Chairman.) Would carbide be a cheap and efficient mode of purifying refuse from chemical works, bleach works, and dyeworks?—If, in the first place, the sedimentary matter is made to subside, and the impure water afterwards passed through the carbide, it would. 1983. That is to say, water chemically impure, but deprived of its mechanical impurities –Yes. I know of no water so impure that might not thus be ren- dered harmless if allowed to flow into the river after passing through a carbide filter. 1984. Have you ever tried carbide upon substances such as those contemplated, chemicals or dyes –Yes. 1985. Have you tried it on port wine?—That which I spoke of yesterday in reference to wine was a mere laboratory experiment, but I have tried similar experiments on a larger scale. 1986. Is the colouring matter in port wine analogous to the colouring matter in logwoods and dyewoods — Yes; but several Lancashire manufacturers have within the last two years sent me specimens of refuse water, in order that I might form an opinion as to whether in the event of some measure being passed by the Legislature to compel them to get rid of the nui- sance, there would be any mode of dealing with their refuse water; I found in all instances, with the ex- ception of starch refuse, that the water might be dealt with, allowing in the first instance the matters in suspension to subside. 1987. From your wide experience in manufactures, and from having been consulted for chemical purposes, are you aware that there is any desire on the part of large manufacturers either to shirk the question, or to find out some means by which they may prevent pollution of rivers without ruin to their business?— All manufacturers that I have had to do with are desirous to do all they can ; but they feel that it would be a hardship to be fined, or have penalties imposed upon them for creating a nuisance there was no pos- sible way of avoiding ; but they are anxious to know how nuisance may be avoided, and if avoidable they would adopt any means that were shown to them, provided that all were placed under similar conditions. They say, “if we are all made to row in the same “ boat we shall get our expenses out of the public, we “ shall charge more for our material.” 1988. In other words, the price of the article must bear a proportion to the cost of producing it, and the purification process would be one more element in the cost of production and would lead to a corresponding increase of price?—Yes, that is what I believe their feeling to be. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 57 1989. Did you hear the evidence that was given as to waste soapsuds?—I only heard the evidence given yesterday. 1990. Mr. Teall showed us that at the present time certain manufacturers receive for waste refuse pro- duced from this soap washing sums of money equal to 100,000l. a year, and that to his knowledge at least double that amount of waste is going into the rivers still, because other manufactories are small, and the difficulty of collecting refuse there would be greater ; but still he thinks that all that could be recovered, if it were made imperative upon manufacturers to go to an additional expense?—I believe it can be done. 1991. Twenty or thirty years ago refuse from gas works was of the most noxious kind, and was most profusely poured out ; you ºre aware that now it is not necessary to send any refuse out?—Yes. 1992. People can utilize all of it, so that it shall not be a nuisance to their neighbours ?—That has arisen greatly in consequence of the mode of purifica- tion by oxide of iron as compared with the lime. 1993. Is not purification of the gas by oxide of iron an everlasting process; you take it out, bleach it, allow it to re-oxydize, and then put it back into the purifiers again and again —Yes. 1994. You cannot do so with the lime 2—No. 1995. That, once charged with sulphur is spent and must be thrown away ?—Yes, it takes oxygen from the atmosphere and becomes hypo-sulphite of lime. 1996. Is it carbide that is used to purify gas, or oxide –The precipitated or the hydrated oxide which was patented by Mr. Hills, is now in use very largely. The carbide is also an excellent purifier of gas. Experiments were made with it in Liverpool, it was found to answer better than anything else; but they subsequently found that which i pointed out in my patent that bog-iron ore would-also do, and now they use bog-iron ore and not Mr. Hills' precipitated oxide. The great object is to get rid of the sulphur—iron absorbs sulphur. The carbide also absorbs sulphur, and when taken out of the retort and exposed to the atmosphere for some time—I do not know even whether exposure to the atmosphere is necessary— but when it is taken out of the retort and allowed to cool down, the sulphur is found in little pin-lead nodules—quite yellow nodules, they may be floated off by water, and then the carbide is ready to act as a purifier again. 1997. Is that sulphur commercially valuable 2–It is; in Hills' process the sulphur is not got out in the same way; but the spent oxide, that is, the oxide that is filled with sulphur, is put into retorts and the sulphur is distilled out, or, by burning, a very excellent sulphureous gas is the result, and by that process sulphuric acid may be made. 1998. One could point to gasworks in the midst of populous districts using the lime mode of purifying, and as the only mode of getting rid of that lime now is by selling it for agricultural purposes, and the far- mers will only take it when not busy with their har- vest, or during seed time, hundreds of tons are accu- mulated in the midst of dense populations, which is a very great nuisance; would it be a hardship, in your opinion, to compel gas manufacturers to use the iron method 2–Certainly not. 1999. Do you think the Government ought to enact that lime should be disused?—Yes, I do, for apart from its odour there is always a drainage from the rain that falls upon the lime heap which goes into the sewers and pollutes rivers. This is invariably the case whenever there is an accumulation of lime waste. 2000. What gas would be developed by washings of refuse lime-heaps flowing down the sewers and becoming mixed with effete matters from house drainage –That depends very much upon circum- stances. In Liverpool, gas refuse, before they took to the oxide of iron mode of purification, went down the sewers and did comparatively little harm until it came in con- tact with another sewer which contained the refuse of alkali works containing muriatic acid, and then came a most intolerable nuisance, which the town autho- rities were obliged to put a stop to ; but gas refuse by itself, if it meets no reacting body as it passes down the sewers, generates no very foul gas, but it injures river water and kills fish. For when it gets exposed for some time hypo-sulphite of lime is formed, which is soluble, but this only adds an inorganic impurity to the water. 2001. Do any of those gases or fluids affect the brickwork of the sewers, or the stone, or the iron work, so as to be injurious—the fluids from chemical works, for instance?—Sulphide of lime in solution would affect the mortar of the sewer and tend to des- troy it. 2002. Would it attack the iron 2–Yes, the iron would become rotten without any rust, it would have become a sulphide of iron. 2003. Would it be completely rotten ?–Yes, you might easily knock it to pieces with a hammer if thoroughly saturated with sulphur. When iron is ex- posed to the influence of sulphur its shape is not altered, nor its thickness, and looking at it one would believe it as strong as ever ; but if it is struck even slightly with a hammer it will scale off. 2004. Do you think that, in the case of tubular bridges erected in the neighbourhood of chemical works, there is any risk from the corroding power of the sulphur –Certainly, in an atmosphere in which sulphur exists iron will not last so long as it will in an atmosphere that is clear of sulphur. 2005. Is there any chance of separation taking place so unperceived as to lead to a sudden catas- trophe –The mischief would show itself, because the vibration that takes place from passage of trains would cause the sulphuretted parts to shell off. 2006. You think it is possible that by a combina- tion of mechanical filtration with chemical filtration water from manufactories might be very materially purified before being passed into river and streams ?— I am decidedly of that opinion. 2007. In your investigations of impurities, as regards rivers, do you find the fluid or the mud to work the greatest amount of injury —I have known rivers with very deep beds of foul mud, and the water flowing over has been comparatively pure and odour- less; but whenever anything happens to stir up the mud then comes the nuisance. 2008. The mud covers itself over with a skin, which forms a sort of gutta-percha protection to the rotten substance beneath —To some extent that is the case, as the mud will be undisturbed if the water is at all deep. The top particles are always more in motion than those below. As far as my observation goes I have found that in deep rivers, even with a large pro- portion of mud at the bottom, water may flow over it comparatively pure. 2009. Have you ever seen the outfall of the Bir- mingham sewerage works —No, I have not. I regard mud as peculiarly noxious in tidal rivers where it is stirred up and is exposed twice a day in consequence of the action of the tide. I believe that the nuisance complained of in regard of the Thames arose more from periodically exposed mud banks than from sewage flowing into it. 2010. Then, in purification of rivers, we must not only look to the purification of the fluids, but prevent sediment getting in and coating the margins between high and low water —No doubt such would be the most effectual mode of cure. 2011. You have already stated that you would have no hope of rendering good service by your carbide unless mechanical impurities be first taken out of the water –Yes. I proposed a system of filtration for the Birmingham sewage, which, however, could not be adopted because they had already made arrange- ments for filtering upwards. What I proposed to the Corporation was this, that they should make a thick filtering bed for ordinary filtration by sand and gravel, and then should place lower down a not very thick layer of carbide; the top layers would take off the mechanically suspended matter, and then the water H 17159.-2, WAKE- FIELD. T. Spencer, Esq. 19 Oct. 1866. 58 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WAKE- FIELD. T. Spencer, Esq. --- 19 Oct. 1866. flowing through the carbide would be purified so much that it might enter into the river without creating a nuisance, and after flowing in the river it might be used for dietetic purposes. 2012. Are you acquainted with the liming process? —I am. 2013. Has it occurred to you that the liming pro- cess for facilitating deposition might be used in com- bination with the carbide process subsequently – It might, and I proposed it for the New River Com- pany’s works at Hertford. The town sewage is there limed before it goes into the Lee—the company are bound to do so by Act of Parliament. The solid matter subsides very effectually ; but the water that flows from it is not good; unless it were put into the river largely diluted it would injure the water below, and would putrefy; it is therefore let flow through a goit about a mile and a half before it reaches the river. The goit is very full of vegetation, which is very difficult to get rid of, and it abounds with rats, but the water when it gets to the end of the goit is improved. Not many months ago I went over these works for the company with a view to use carbide, and I reported to them that there would be no difficulty if they chose to go to the expense, and no doubt, if pressed, they would. 2014. Do you think that anything of this kind could be done on a great scale, instead of leaving it to be done by individual manufacturers each for himself. Could you lime a large stream or a small river first and then pass it over a permanent bed of carbide in the shape of a filter 2–That would be more a question for a well-practised engineer. If the engineering difficulties could be got rid of, I have no doubt what- ever that the most impure water could be rendered harmless as far as fouling rivers is concerned. 2015. The liming process is applicable upon a small scale and upon a very large one, is it not *—Yes. 2016. Is it the fact that chemical experiments of that class are more effective upon a large scale than in a laboratory?—They are less effective in a laboratory. 2017. If the larger experiments are true in prin- ciple the result would be the more perfect 2–Yes, certainly; when experiments on a small scale succeed, experiments on a larger scale succeed very much better, it is peculiarly so with filtration. 2018. The disturbing elements are much more largely diluted 2–Yes, and there is more quietude in the water on a large scale. In manufacturing small filters the greatest care possible must be taken to get the filtration perfect, but not so much so with a large filter bed. 2019. If, for instance, we show that laboratory ex- periments attain to certain results in filtration, the result of your experience would be an effective answer to manufacturers who might say, “It is all “very well what you can do in a closet, we do not “believe we can do it at our works, as they are so “large f"–I say that the contrary is the fact, that the larger the scale upon which you work the better the results will be. 2020. (Professor Way.) That is, supposing that the superintendence is equally good in both cases?— Yes, though less is required on a large scale. 2021. Have you made any comparative analysis of any waters before and after filtration through your carbide –In every case in which I have been con- sulted by water companies or others with regard to carbide filtration, I have asked for a sample of the water to be treated, or whether they have had any previous analysis made, so that I might be capable of judging of the effect produced by the carbide. In several cases analyses made by others have been fur. nished to me, and in others I have been asked to make an analysis myself of the water previous to and after filtration ; and I have returned a report of results in both instances, and have advised the same to be done by others, so that my analyses might be confirmed. This was so with regard to Wakefield, Spalding, and Rugby. M. - 2022. Can you lay your hand on any of those com- parative analyses —I have copies of them all. 2023. Will you be kind enough to send to the Com- mission copies of them 2–I shall have much pleasure in doing so. 2024. Can you in any instance in which your material has been employed state from memory about the quantity of organic matter found in the water before filtration and the quantity found afterwards?— In the Wakefield water, in the first sample that I analysed, as far as I can recollect, there were before filtration very nearly three grains of organic mater, and in subsequent cases I have found even from four to five after sand filtration. I have again found one grain, sometimes a little less and sometimes a fraction In Ore. 2025. You speak of the water at that time supplied to the town 2–Yes. 2026. There was a possibility, was there not, of that water being in a specially bad condition at that time from local accidental causes, such as drought –Yes. 2027. I wish to know whether you have examined the water that was actually going into and the water that was at the same time coming out of the filters ?—I have done so, and found that the organic matter was from one to two grains less in the one case than in the other; but perhaps the analyses made by Professor Clarke and Mr. Brand for the cor- poration of Liverpool might afford a better reply. The Rivington water, while the reservoirs were being matured, that is while the roots of the grass which formerly covered the soil at the bottom of the reser- voirs were being dissolved, contained a very large quantity of organic matter, and samples of it were sent to Professor Clarke of Aberdeen, and also to Mr. Brand in London, with samples of the same water filtered through carbide. Dr. Angus Smith was asso- ciated with me in the inquiry, and Professor Clarke reported that he could hardly find a trace of organic matter in the filtered water, and Mr. Brand reported that there was something under half a grain, as nearly as I can remember. 2028. That was filtration through a small filter ?– Of about a yard square. 2029. That would of course demonstrate the power of the material for effecting the object 2–No doubt. 2030. But it would not clearly demonstrate the feasibility of it on a practical scale as a matter of quantity and expense –That is so. But subse- quently we made an experimental filter containing a surface of 25 square yards to test the same water during the controversy, for there was a great contro- versy in Liverpool with regard to the water supply at the time. This filtered water was analysed by a great many, for everyone who had an opinion that the water was bad got his own chemist to analyse it, and they all concurred that the water after filtration was very free from organic matter. During the period of the maturing of the reservoir, the water, as it went into the filter, was full of suspended organic matter; it was very brown, and was a source of great com- plaint in the town; but the water that came out of that filter was practically free from organic matter, and perfectly clear and colourless, and that filter worked for eight months night and day, and gave about 18,000 gallons daily. 2031. That was also an experimental filter in which the quantity you could economically pass through was not kept in view –It was fully kept in view ; we had only a layer of six inches of carbide ; the engineer took care that there was not more carbide in the filter than what was intended to be used practically; in fact one important object was to test the quantity and quality of carbide that would be necessary for the larger beds. 2032. Do they continue that filtration ?—They do not. 2033. For what reason 2–The bottom of the reser- voirs became cleaner as the grass rotted I suppose, and the water got very much brighter, and it became unnecessary to use the carbide as they considered, and RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 59 as I had previously reported to the Corporation would be the case. 2034. Is the water in the Liverpool reservoirs now at all covered with weed 2–Yes, to some extent. 2035. Does your substance remove weed —That is almost its greatest virtue. It prevents its formation by destroying organic matter on which it feeds. 2036. You think the Liverpool people are wrong in not continuing to use it —I think they ought to use it, as the water is brown from peaty formations over which it flows. 2037. Does not it strike you that the answer to any doubts in regard to this town would be a careful analysis of the water as it goes into the filter and as it comes out 2–Yes, it would, though not altogether so, because the carbide does even more to the water than taking out the organic matters. It oxidizes any gases that happen to be in the water arising from organic matter, and which ordinary analysis overlooks. Hence the peculiar and almost sweet taste that the carbide filtered water has. I may illustrate this by reference to another land. Perhaps it may be new to you to know that in Egypt there is 18 per cent of magnetic oxide in almost every yard of the soil which is periodically covered by the Nile. During the last two years I have had a large number of samples of the soil of Egypt from various depths sent to me, and I may say that magnetic oxide abounds in every inch of the soil; I find at the very least 15 per cent. of magnetic oxide. I was led to this inquiry from the ordinary opinion that the fertility of Egypt arises from the mud of the Nile. I have had numerous samples taken at the time of overflow from the Nile in which I found very little organic matter indeed, but in the sediment there was a very large proportion of iron; though at that time I did not observe that it was magnetic iron. Since then I have made many analyses of the waters and examinations of the soil, and find it to be as I have stated. This accounts for the healthi- ness of Egypt, even when the Nile subsides; in other lands, if you allowed so large a surface of wet mud to be exposed it would breed malaria. Hence, too, it is that the waters of the Nile are so much liked for drinking, and that they are termed “The sweet waters of the Nile,” The cause of the magnetic oxide being in the Nile waters is no doubt the gradual disintegra- tion of the trap rock in the upper regions of Africa. Trap rock contains from 20 to 22 grains of magnetic oxide when analyzed. - 2038. If you were to find that the water in the Wakefield reservoirs, being tolerably free from organic matter, was not sensibly affected by filtration through your carbide, would that be what you would expect? —If there were only a small quantity of organic matter in the water to commence with, still there would be a smaller quantity after filtration under all circumstances. - 2039. You mentioned one grain ; suppose you began with five grains of organic matter, you might by car- bide filtration probably bring it down to one grain — Yes. 2040. Suppose you began with one grain before fil- tration, what would you expect it to come down to by filtration?—Something like half a grain, because a small quantity of organic matter in the water is far more difficult to separate. But then that small quan- tity is in all ordinary cases harmless; it is the large proportions that become putrescent—those very small quantities that seem to be in the very interstices of the water have no injurious effect whatever. 2041. (Chairman.) I suppose that in chemistry it is the same as in agriculture, the ordinary progressive laws of arithmetic do not apply –They do not ; at least in this case it is a sort of inverse geometrical progression. 2042. Again, I suppose the same rule holds good, that if there is a difficulty in a small experiment, that difficulty is diminished if, with equal care, a large ex- periment is conducted 2–No doubt, in most chemical operations. 2043. If any person asserts that the carbide hardens the water of Wakefield in filtration, what would be your reply 2–In the first place, that the carbide does not harden water, but has a contrary tendency; but that the water at Wakefield is slightly hardened I know, and in my report to the company I told them that they must expect that for the first 12 months, because the reservoirs were new, and the iron from which the carbide is manufactured always contains some little sulphate of lime, and the more porous the material is in itself, the longer time it takes before that sulphate of lime is washed out ; but when it is washed out the carbide does not harden—it cannot harden—it would be a chemical impossibility for carbide to harden water ; but in all cases for the first two or three months carbide filtration is liable to add, to the extent of a degree or two, to the hardness. 2044. Is it necessary to treat the raw carbide by any bleaching process before putting it into a filter, to help to sweeten it —No, not if you allow the water to run to waste for some seven or eight days. When our first filter bed was opened at Wakefield the water that first passed through was very bad ; and in order to help the washing process I recommended that alkali be used, and we spread some soda ash upon the top and let the water go through ; the purification of the carbide took place much sooner. 2045. That facilitated the purification of the foreign matter –Yes; and had there been no outcry in the town regarding the state of the water, I should have let it go to waste without using alkali. 2046. (Professor Way.) With regard to hardness, do you know what the hardness of the water of the river Calder is at this moment?—I do not ; but I think from 7° to 9°. - 2047. Would you not be surprised to hear that in July it was between 8° and 9° 2–No. 2048. What is the degree of hardness of the water which is usually supplied to the town by the com- pany –I forget exactly; but Mr. Sykes will remem- ber my report of the last samples. They do not send me samples often ; that is a matter of expense. 2049. If you found that there were from 8° to 84° of hardness in the water you supply, would you sa that you had hardened the water 2–If the filtered water is harder than that which goes into the filter from the river, of course I must say so. Still I should repeat that if it is so the carbide is not thoroughly cleansed. 2050. (Chairman.) Have you anything further to add 2–I do not know that I have. I may say that I omitted to state yesterday that the carbide has the effect of taking sulphuretted hydrogen out of water where it exists; that is a certain result. The witness withdrew. The witness subsequently forwarded the following letter :— 32, Euston Square, London, N.W., GENTLEMEN, October 20, 1866. I TAKE the liberty of writing to rectify a couple of circumstances in reference to the Wakefield Waterworks, one of which was, I believe, omitted from the evidence, and the other inadvertently misstated. To each, however, I attach some importance. From what I gathered in the course of the evidence given while I was present, it appeared to me that you had not been previously informed that the town supply was first passed through a cocoa-nut fibre filter, and then through one of sand and gravel for years previous, and up to the period when the present carbide filters were completed. On my first visit to the Company’s works in, I think, 1860, I found, along with the cocoa-nut fibre arrangement, a regularly constructed filter of sand and gravel in full operation. I believe it had been planned by Mr. Simpson. At all events these arrangements were in operation during all the previous outcry as to the impurity of the water. The filter bed stood partly on the site of those now con- structing. I would here add a word in regard to the subsiding reservoirs near the river. The suspended impurities of this WAKE- FIELD. T. Spencer, Esq. 19 Oct. 1866. - H 2 60 RIVERS COMMISSION:–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAIXE- FIELD. T. Spencer, Esq. -- 19 Oct. 1866. Col. J. G. Smyth. water are not such as readily subside. They contain a considerable proportion of organic substances. My reason for advising the construction of the dividing wall was that one division of the reservoir might be cleansed while the other was in operation. At the same time no cleansing of either has been found necessary since the alteration. At the time the water was pumped out to make the wall, I was much surprised to find that barely 6 inches of mud had accumulated in so many years. I expected to find more than twice this quantity. However, this latter fact tends to show that the impurity complained of is at least as much due to chemical as to mechanical matters. In pumping this subsided water in dry weather up to the filter beds, I have known of the man at the lift being obliged to leave off work after discharging the contents of his stomach, caused by the intolerable odour of the water. The second point I have to refer to is in regard to the quantity of carbide now in the filter beds, about which you may remember there was some misunderstanding between myself and Mr. Sykes. I gave, in my evidence, that they contained 9 inches. This statement was corrected by Mr. Sykes, who was then under the impression that they con- tained 12 inches. This, however, is not so. After the close of the inquiry we ascertained that the first statement is correct, viz., that these beds contain 9 inches of carbide and not 12 inches. It is true that the layer containing the car- bide measures 12 inches, but it is mixed with three inches of coarse sand. The mixture was made whilst putting it in the beds. Had the matter rested with me I should certainly have used not less than 12 inches of carbide alone in dealing with water so impure, and especially when nearly twice the quantity is passed through that I intended. When, how- ever, the other beds are in operation, this will be amended. At Rugby there is less than 3 inches of carbide in the filter bed, whilst twice the quantity of the impure river water is passed through that ought. Still, all parties seem contented with the water, and when I remonstrated as to the inadequacy of the quantity of carbide to effect thorough purification, I was told there were no funds to purchase IłłGI’8. As I do not charge any royalty for patent right, but include it in the price of the material, you will see that my motives are liable to be impugned when I urge the necessity of having a larger quantity, or at all events what is deemed to be a large quantity. I am, &c. (Signed) THos. SPEN CER. To the Rivers Commission, &c., &c., &c. Colonel JoHN GEORGE SAIYTH (of Wakefield) examined. 2051. (Chairman.) Do you reside in the vicinity of Wakefield 2–Yes, I reside at Heath, near Wakefield. 2052. Have you resided here for some time * — Since the year 1837. 2053. Do you remember the condition of the river at that time sufficiently to be able to speak as to the alteration that has since taken place —When I first came to reside at Heath the river water was, compara- tively speaking, perfectly pure, and an angling associa- tion existed, and the fish were carefully preserved. Trout were caught very near to my house; but at this moment I do not suppose that fish can live in the river; it is very foul, and during the summer season it is most offensive; there is a thick scum on the sur- face which in hot weather smells, and is, I have no doubt, injurious to health. I have heard persons com- plain of sickness, which they attributed to it. 2054. Are you a riparian owner –Yes. 2055. Do you believe that this state of things dete- riorates the value of your estate or otherwise –The occupiers of land suffer very much, and the water is useless for cattle ; to that extent the pollution of the river deteriorates the value of the land ; it deteriorates it for residential and agricultural purposes. 2056. Are you one of the Aire and Calder under- takers and proprietors —Yes. 2057. Do you exercise over the rivers any police or other authority to prevent pollution of any kind *— No, we have no power of that description. 2058. It being admitted on all hands that the river is fouled, and to a very injurious extent, do you think it is necessary that some properly constituted body should be entrusted with the management of the river, in order to prevent these pollutions in future, if they can be prevented without destroying the trade of the country —Some legislation do you mean? 2059. Yes; that Parliament should place the power of prevention in some local authority who would see that it was carried out 3–I have not the least hesita- tion in saying that compulsory measures of legislation are absolutely necessary. - 2060. (Mr. Harrison.) Have the undertakers of the Aire and Calder Navigation power under this Act to prevent tipping into the river any materials that will interfere with the navigation of the river?—Certainly; and that power we exercise purely for navigation pur- poses, but not to prevent the fouling of the stream. 2061. (Chairman.) Are you aware whether the sewage of the different towns and places is passed into the river ?—I believe that the sewage of many large towns higher up the Calder than Wakefield passes into the river. 2062. That would be one of the causes of impurity that ought to be prevented if possible —Certainly. 2063. Fluid refuse from dyeworks and chemical works also passes in F-Yes, 2064. It will also be necessary to prevent that form of nuisance from going into the river ?–Quite so. In conversation which I have had with various mill owners on the Calder above Wakefield, near Halifax, and else- where, I have found that they all concur in the neces- sity for some measures being passed ; but every man says that it is hard that he should be punished and his neighbour left unpunished ; that whatever legislation takes place should be compulsory, and carried out strictly by some independent body, and should be equally applied to all cases of nuisance. I believe the general feeling is that no refuse or sewage should be allowed to be discharged into any of the streams in the West Riding of Yorkshire. The streams flow into the rivers, and are used by the inhabitants in small places for domestic purposes and for cattle ; and if those small streams are fouled the larger ones become equally and indeed more fouled. 2065. (Mr. Harrison.) What are the limits of your jurisdiction upon the Calder as undertakers of the Aire and Calder Navigation ?–Up to Wakefield, and upon the Aire up to Leeds. 2066. You have the power to prevent ashes being thrown into the Calder within your jurisdiction, but you have no power over manufacturers in the neigh- bourhood of Huddersfield and other towns?—None. 2067. It was stated yesterday that a large quantity of ashes are found in the bed of your river, and that the undertakers are put to considerable expense in dredging in order to remove those ashes. Those ashes, I presume, have been thrown in at points above your jurisdiction, and have come down —I imagine so. 2068. The undertakers are pecuniarily interested in an extension of the power of prevention to the upper districts as well as to those over which they have juris- diction ?–Quite so. There is water communication higher up the river than Wakefield by the Calder and Hebble Canal ; but that, although it is now united with the Aire and Calder, is not part of the Aire and Calder Navigation. 2069. Have the undertakers of the upper naviga- tions similar powers to prevent the tipping of ashes in 2–I believe they have, but I cannot speak confi- dently upon that subject. 2070. (Chairman.) I believe you act as chairman of the county magistracy in this district —I am chairman of the petty sessions division. 2071. Do the county police exercise under your jurisdiction authority over nuisances in villages; I mean, do they act as inspectors of nuisances —Yes, they do in some instances in the small villages exer- cise authority. 2072. Are you acquainted with a recent Act of Parliament called the Public Health Act 2–I know that Act, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 61 2073. I believe that that has enlarged the powers of magistrates ?—It has. 2074. In the event of a legislative enactment to prevent the fouling of rivers, do you think that, in- stead of a new jurisdiction being set up, the police might be made available for the purpose of giving information as to offenders against the Act 2–1 think that the police in all cases would be useful as informers both in boroughs and in counties. In a town like Wake- field there is an inspector of nuisances, whose business it is to report upon those nuisances. No such officer exists in small towns; and there I think the police might be employed as you suggest. I have also thought that in small villages the surveyor of highways, who is a responsible officer in every township, would be a very proper person to see any nuisance removed. 2075. (Mr. Harrison.) At the present time it requires some of the people who suffer from nuisances to give information ?—Yes. 2076. That is frequently considered an invidious duty to perform ; persons neglect it, and the nuisance continues —Yes. 2077. You would remove that difficulty by making it the duty of a public officer to prosecute 2–Yes. In my own village I have carried that out to a certain extent, and I think with very great advantage. There is no doubt that one neighbour dislikes to say any- thing disagreeable of another; but when it is made the duty of a public officer, and somebody sees that he performs his duty, he cannot be accused of invi- diously selecting one man for prosecution. 2078. (Chairman.) The interests of the river, as the population has increased, now have come to con- sist of the interests of riparian landowners, of riparian manufacturers, and of riparian villages, towns, and boroughs 2–Yes. 2079. If a board of conservancy is to be set up, do you think it would be advisable that the members should be elected by the parties representing all those interests, instead of the management being entrusted to any one set of officers, as the county magistrates or the borough authorities –Perhaps some arrange- ment might be adopted like that of the Salmon Act of the last session of Parliament. 2080. How is that board elected 2–It is elected first of all by the magistrates, and by parties having property on the spot, who form a fishery board, and they have power to prosecute. Under the Salmon Act the magistrates’ duty is to communicate with the Home Secretary, who sanctions, upon application, the formation of a fishery district and then puts the Act of Parliament into operation. 2081. In the case of the Aire and Calder, should not legislation provide that persons in the locality should petition one of the departments of Govern- ment to set up an authority, and that that authority should be not a mere central authority, but a local authority, to be elected locally, with provision for an appeal in case of neglect to a central authority, which should compel the local autority to do its duty –I think there might be a difficulty in any district in obtaining the unanimous opinion of the parties with regard to what was considered a nuisance. I would rather see some compulsory legislation that should forbid the discharge of anything like sewage into the rivers, and I would have the same legisla- tion as to smoke. The magistrates on the spot in a borough, or a stipendiary magistrate, which many of these large towns have, or ought to have, and in small districts the county magistrates, should be com- pelled to carry out the law. 2082. Are you aware of the provisions in Lord Derby's Alkali Act 2–Yes. 2083. That Act was passed for the prevention of the discharge of alkali vapour beyond a certain per- centage —Yes. - 2084. All works are put under absolute control and inspection ?–Yes. 2085. And the Act is working satisfactorily, that is to say, the manufacturers are working harmoniously with the government authorities, and are carrying on their manufactures, and sending out a ver much less proportion of impurity than the Act allows them to do —I understand that that is so, and the Act I believe is most successful. 2086. Do you think if a provision of that kind were made, it would be better than leaving the matter to the local authorities 2–I should hesitate before I placed any large authority of this description in the hands of local authorities. The duty should not be thrown upon the local authorities to be the first movets. I would rather have compulsory legislation. My experience tells me that the only way in which a re- striction of this kind can be carried out effectually is to make the legislation not permissive but compulsory, and to make the restriction part of the statute law of the country. 2087. Smoke Acts have been passed I believe by Parliament for some years past 2–Yes, I helped to carry the Leeds Improvement Act through Parliament some years ago, in which there was a smoke clause, but I believe it is totally inoperative. 2088. I presume you think that the makers of the nuisance should not have committed to them the duty of preventing it 2–I think that they should not be the first movers in the matter in order to compel the removal of the nuisance. 2089. If it is left to them you think it may re. main a long time without being removed 2–Yes. 2090. In the original Act of Parliament of Wil- liam the 3rd, besides the undertakers of the Aire and Calder Navigation, Commissioners were appointed whose duty it was to settle disputes between the undertakers and the millowners, the riparian pro- prietors and others. In the Act of 1774 the same Commissioners appear to have been in existence, ard a number of Commissioners were added to them, with similar duties. Are those Commissioners still in existence –They are, but an appeal to the Com- missioners is very rare. I hardly remember one. 2091. Who are the Commissioners now, or are they known 2–I cannot state the names to you; they are known, but the fact of their duties being so light probably accounts for my not being able to name them to you. They are named in the original Act of Parliament. 2092. If you look at the list, in this Act you will see that it occupies much more than one page of this Act 2–I can only tell you that such a body exists, but that within my recollection they have never been called upon to act. 2093. If a law were passed to prevent the pollu- tion of the river, would the resuscitation of that body be desirable, and would the body be adequate to the discharge of the duties of carrying out the Act 2 —If the duty is to be done, it should not be entrusted to so large a number as those whose names are printed on this page. I would rather have two persons who would do the work than an Act of Parliament full of Ilanles. 2094. (Chairman.) In your practical experience of the working of Acts of Parliament do you find that large bodies work as well as small bodies — Certainly not ; the smaller the body the better for working under any circumstances. 2095. The work must devolve upon two or three ? —Yes, practically it always does. 2096. And if you have a large body their only efficiency in a general way is for mischief, namely to come in and upset something which the small body has done —That is frequently the case. 2097. (Mr. Harrison.) In the appointment of any new body as a Conservancy, would it be desirable to repeal so much of the Act as went to appoint the present body, and to throw the duties of the present Commissioners upon the new body, and to let them carry out along with those old duties the duty of seeing that the river was not polluted —Are you now speaking of the river Calder only 2098. The Aire and Calder.— I take it that any Act which the Legislature will pass must be a general Act, applicable not only to the West Riding of York- WAIXE- IFIEL1). Col. J. G. Smyth. 19 Oct. 1866. H 3 62 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WAKE- FIELD. Col. J. G. Smyth. - 19 Oct. 1866. Mr. J. Rhodes. --- shire but to all parts of the kingdom. I would much rather have a general Act applicable to all rivers than an Act applicable to the Calder, or to the rivers Aire and Calder, and another Act applicable to the river Derwent, and another applicable to the river Ouse, probably clashing with each other, and making a confusion which would be worse than the present state of things. 2099. (Professor Way.) Would you be able to wait for that?—I hope that we shall not have to wait very long, because if so the inhabitants who live on the banks of these rivers will cease to exist. 2100. The circumstances and necessities of one district may not be exactly like those of another ?— But the Act would only apply to the nuisance which existed. - 2101. Did I rightly understand you to say that supposing legislative measures to be taken with regard to the pollution of rivers, you would prefer that they were carried out through the medium of a central or of a local authority ?—By “central” do you mean a central authority in London, or a central authority in the district 2 2102. A central authority in London.—I think that whatever the law directs should be carried out by those on the spot. There is no difficulty in carry- ing out the law if once made. I would never leave the question of a nuisance to a common informer. 2103. Would you like a Conservancy to carry out the legislative enactment, or would you prefer its being done by officers resident upon the spot —Whatever law exists must be put in motion, I imagine, by those on the spot who can obtain the necessary evidence, and for that purpose a body of conservators, or even a local board, would be sufficient. In country districts, where no local board exists, the superintendent of police or sergeant of police would be quite fit to move in the first instance. 2104. You I suppose would embrace the whole river under that provision ?—I should embrace every river which was a nuisance, into which was discharged sewage or anything which created a nuisance. 2105. (Mr. Harrison.) And it would be the duty of the superintendent or sergeant of police, or even of a policeman, through the superintendent to become the informer ?—Yes, 2106. Action would immediately ensue, and the case would be followed up before the magistrates ?— Yes; and in order to carry out the same system by the police with regard to nuisance from bad drainage of houses, it should be the duty of the constable to report the nuisance, and some officer should have the power of enforcing the removal of it. 2107. (Chairman.) Assuming that some machinery is invented, and the process defined, there is the ques. tion of payment. Do you think that the county or the counties affected would resist a small rate for this special purpose to be collected with the county rate —I think not. 2108. All parties, manufacturers, towns, villages, and town property, should be rated, and the rate should spread itself as equally as the benefit to be derived —I think that all parties would willingly contribute their proportion to a rate for that purpose. 2109. You, as a landowner, would not object to an equitable rate for the purpose, supposing that you were to get the benefit in effective legislation for the prevention of the nuisance 2–I think that there would be no objection whatever on the part of either land- owners or millowners. 2110. (Mr. Harrison.) Do many salmon come up the Humber?—Salmon come up the Humber and up the Ouse, to within five or six miles of York. 2111. Have you heard on any occasion of injury being done to the salmon in consequence of the pol- luted state of the Aire and Calder, or other rivers?— No salmon come up the rivers Aire and Calder. 2112. I mean in the waters discharged by the Aire and Calder into the river below, into the Ouse 2– I cannot say that I have heard of injury being done to the fish, but you are aware that the Ouse is a very broad river where the Aire flows into it below Selby. 2113. You have not heard that during this year in the Ouse, below its junction with the Aire and Calder, salmon sickened in consequence of the discharge of those rivers and were brought to the surface and caught in great numbers?—I was not aware of it, The witness withdrew. Mr. Joseph RHODEs (Mayor of Wakefield) further examined. 2114. (Chairman.) Do you to know whether there are many unformed and unpaved street surfaces in the neighbourhood of Wakefield –Yes, there are many, but I think that our town clerk or our sur- veyor would answer that question better than I can. 2115. Have you borrowed any money for improving your roads and surfaces —Not for roads, only for sewers; not for finishing the surface. 2116. Supposing the unpaved streets to be private streets, still as a local board you have power to give notice to the owners, and in default of their doing their duty to enter and to do that work and to borrow money for it –It is very probable that we shall adopt that plan next year or the following year, after we get our main sewers completed. We are now going on with the main sewers with energy, and I hope that we shall finish off the matter by paving and flagging the streets. 2117. There are now a great many streets and roads which in wet weather must be almost impassable —I am very sorry to see them, but still we must make the sewers before we can finish the roads themselves. - (Mr. Morgan.) I may be allowed to state that when the corporation became a local board of health, the old commissioners had 27 streets which they sewered and repaired. Since that time the local board of health have compelled the owners and occu- piers of about 30 streets to sewer, pave, and channel ; and I believe that some of the roads to which you refer are private roads, and the local boards do not wish to compel the owners to pave and sewer until the system of drainage is carried out. Wakefield. 2118. With your streets in the condition in which they are now, the mud a foot or two deep upon the surface during heavy rains, a portion of the mud is washed down from the surface and gets into the rivers and streams. The state of the streets, there- fore, tends to the pollution of rivers, besides occa- sioning inconvenience to your own inhabitants and the district generally?—There is no doubt that that is the case. (Mr. Thomas Mark Carter.) I am a brewer in There have always been two opinions in the Wakefield Town Council as to whether it is better to borrow money or to be a little more patient. Each of them has found very strong defenders, but I have always myself been of opinion that it is much better not to go into debt. In the first place, I am quite willing to pay for my time and generation, but I do not want to pay more. In the next place, the streets are being cut up to such a degree for repairs and sewerage that it is very disagreeable to those living there, and I think that we are going as fast as is beneficial. In the next place, I object to the quantity of sewage which has been deposited from the town into the river. They are constantly making more sewers and are constantly causing more sewage to run into the river. I wish that they would not take it there, but would remove it elsewhere as dry sewage. I very much dislike its running into the river, except on the condition that the rivers and streams of the West Riding which form the Calder shall all be con- sidered as open drains and sewers. Eight years ago, I, wanting pure water, went up the river Calder and with great care examined every side stream coming RIVERS COMMISSION:--MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 63 in ; I found that every one was taken advantage of by the proprietors on the banks to turn their dirty water or refuse into. I went up the river till I came to the hills past Todmorden, where the stream became only the thickness of my leg, and there as I passed the homesteads I saw almost every one had a privy overhanging the river. As I was looking on a woman went to the stream with a shovelful of ashes from her cottage and threw them into the stream. I then gave up the attempt to find any clean water. 1 saw the river was treated as an immense sewer composed of Colonel John GEORGE 2119. (Mr. Harrison.) You have just heard the observation of the deputy town clerk that the corpora- tion of Wakefield have power to prevent the discharge of sewage into the river, and that they have not acted upon it. Supposing, as you proposed just now, the police of the county were constituted the informers of the breach of an Act prohibiting pollution of rivers, how would that operate in the case of sewage turned into a river by a corporation such as Wakefield – Within the borough 2120. Yes.—I imagine that the inspector of nuisances would then be the person to report the existence of the nuisance. 2121. Then the inspector of nuisances would have to report to the people who created the nuisance –The corporation have an officer whose duty it is to report the nuisances, and he makes his report to the mayor, or to the board. 2122. But in the case which I put the corporation themselves are carrying out the sewage works. If the inspector of nuisances in the town of Wakefield were to be the informer against the pollution of the a great number of small sewers running into it. If it is considered that the river should not be so treated, then in my opinion the only other course is to make an artificial cut by the side of it. - (Mr. Morgan.) In the Act of Parliament applying the Public Health Act to Wakefield, there is a special clause empowering the local board to prevent the pollution of streams, but the clause has been inopera- tive in Wakefield as it has I believe in other towns. That Act passed in 1853. SMYTH further examined. stream, there would take place what occurs in the carrying out of the Smoke Act—those who create the smoke in a town are the judges. How do you pro- pose to remedy that 2–Supposing that every borough in the West Riding of Yorkshire had the same clause, I am quite sure that Wakefield would carry it out; it is because one corporate body has it not, and another having it does not use it, that all are now equally backward in taking active steps to remedy what is a nuisance acknowledged by everyone. (Mr. Morgan.) If we had attempted to put that clause into operation we should directly have come into antagonism with the authorities of the prison and of the asylum, a very powerful body who have the means of pouring their sewage down those very sewers, and there has been the difficulty. (Colonel Smith.) No doubt you are under difficulty. 2123. (Chairman to Mr. Morgan.) You want that the power to prevent river pollution should be ex- tended over the river basin –It should apply to all running streams. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM RALPH MILNER (Wakefield) examined. 2124. (Chairman.) Are you surgeon to the convict department of the Wakefield prison 2–Yes. 2125. What points in this inquiry do you propose to speak to?—I can speak as to the state of the river, with which I have been acquainted since 1826, and also as to the state of the health of the prison, the sewage of the prison, and other matters connected with it. 2126. We have had in evidence that the river is very much more polluted than it was in 1826?–Yes, in 1826 the water was clear and the bottom was free from mud; it was a gravelly sandy bottom, and I have frequently myself sent stones into it for boys to dive down after ; the water at a depth of seven or eight feet was sufficiently clear to distinguish stones at the bottom ; some of the streams running in, for instance the Alverthorpe Beck, at that time were full of fish ; there was a great deal of fish in the river. I have frequently seen kingfishers there, which shows the general clearness of the water. About 1850 the river began to be very much more polluted. I think that a material change commenced about that time, and the pollution has continued to increase since. The water is now dark coloured, frequently very offen- sive, and there are large quantities of matter floating upon the surface. The water with which we have been supplied at the prison is derived from the water- works, which draw principally from the river. A few years since the water supplied was very offen- sive ; in 1864 it was intolerable, the water stank; there were large quantities of matter deposited in the vessels in which the water was allowed to stand. The subject was brought before the magistrates and repre- sentations were made to the waterworks company : they then promised that the water should be improved, and lately steps have been taken to improve the water; it is now clear, bright, and free from offensive taste and smell, but very much harder than it used to be. 2127. It is harder than it was in its impurer state —Much harder, - - 2128. What number of inmates have you in your prison 2–To-day we have 1,245. 2129. Have you any reason to think that the water supplied is injurious to the health of the inmates?— No, I do not think that there is any injury which may be traced to the water supplied at present. 2130. Is the prison sewered 2–Yes. 2131. Do the prisoners use soilpans or what appa- ratus do they use P-About 700 of the cells are supplied with waterclosets. 2132. With small waterclosets —Fair-sized water- closets, one in each cell; a separate watercloset for each prisoner. The remainder of the prisoners use soilpans which are emptied into the drains every morn- ing ; the pan is taken out (it is a most disgusting process) and emptied into the sewers. At one time it created a great nuisance in the prison, and I and the other medical officer had to complain of the nuisance; since then a quantity of disinfecting powder has been mixed with each stool, and the nuisance, so far as offensive smell goes, has been completely done away with. 2133. Does the whole of the refuse pass into the river ?—The whole of it passes into the river. 2134. Have you ever contemplated, or have the magistrates contemplated, the utilization of that refuse matter –The subject was discussed, and it was pro- posed that tanks should be made within the prison walls, and that some attempt should be made to use the sewage. - - 2135. To keep it out of the river ?—Yes, partly to keep it out of the river, because the occupants of some neighbouring property objected to the sewage being poured into the Balne Beck, which runs between the prison and their property, and threatened to take pro- ceedings against the magistrates. The question then arose whether a new sewer should be made to convey the sewage of about 400 prisoners into the river, or whether the sewage should be otherwise disposed of I must tell you that at that time Mr. Dunn, the WAKE- FIELD, Mr. J. Rhodes. 19 Oct. 1866. --- Col. J. G. Smyth. -- Mr. W. R. Milner. ----- H 4 64 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WAKE- FIEL!). Mr. W. R. Milner. 19 Oct. 1866. medical officer of the West Riding Department prison, and myself objected to tanks being made in the prison; we thought that there would be such a difficulty in making them free from nuisance. 2136. You objected to setting up an apparatus for rendering the refuse putrid –I believe so. 2137. With regard to the existing impurity of the river, has any mode occurred to you by which it would be prevented 2–I see no other mode of remedying it except by shutting out everything from the river which pollutes it. 2138. Preventing the cause of pollution from going in 2–Yes. 2139. Have you any other evidence to offer?—I merely wish to mention, with reference to the prison, for the purpose of showing the influence of good sanitary conditions upon health, that we have had since the Government prisoners were placed in Wake- field 8,947 prisoners, who have passed through my hands in the period of 19 years. The deaths have been 9 per cent. during that time. I ascertained some years ago, for another purpose, the death-rate in the various sick clubs in Wakefield ; it was 89 per cent., nearly the same as ours; but we have not had a single case of continued fever of any sort among the 8,947 men during those 19 years; there have only been two cases of dysentery during the time, and 21 cases of erysipelas. 2140. Have you had any experience of the disease which prevails in the parts of the town inhabited by the class of persons to which the convicts belong — I have had experience of that. There have been many cases of various kinds of fever. 2141. Is the mortality higher —No ; out of prison the mortality among adult males is about the same as in. Another fact of importance is that in 1849 we had an outbreak of cholera in the prison. At that time during the month of January we had 1,337 prisoners who passed through the prison; of that number, about 270 were in the old prison, the remaining 1,067 were in the new prison. In the old prison, which was badly drained and badly ventilated, and not warmed—the ground upon which it stood being intersected with rotten sewers, so that you could not dig two feet in the ground without foetid water rising—we had 27 cases of cholera among 270 prisoners; in the remain- ing nearly 1,100 prisoners in the new prison we had not a single case. We had a great deal of diarrhoea all over the prison, but after the outbreak had ceased it was found that in the old prison each prisoner had had 13 times as much diarrhoea as in the new prison ; that is to say, that supposing each man in the new prison had been one day under treatment for diarrhoea, in the old prison each man had been 13 days under treatment for it. 2142. Would your experience point to this, that if towns were treated as well as gaols are treated in a sanitary point of view you might, humanly speaking, banish fever from towns —I think so ; we have ex- tinguished it in the prison for 19 years. 2143. You have actually treated a number of individuals for 19 years and have not had any fever, but you think that those same individuals would have suffered from ſever in the towns from which they came if left to themselves 2–I am convinced that a large number of them would have died from fever if they had been out of prison. 2144. Then if you wanted to give a man of that class the best chance of life you would immediately put him in prison —No, he would die of consumption then, instead of fever. A large number of prisoners die of consumption. Our mortality is rather higher than the mortality outside. 2145. And that mortality springs from consump- tion?—From tubercular disease almost entirely. 2146. How do you imagine that that disease is set up 2–I think that it is from the confinement. Some- thing may be owing to the want of light, and some- thing, perhaps, to the bad habits of the men before coming in, and a great deal, I think, is owing to the monotonous state of their lives; it is a low state of life. There is another fact which is important. In March 1848 one of the sewers became blocked; a plank had floated down and obstructed the sewer. We have four wings in the prison, A., B., C., and D.; the drain which was stopped was the drain out of which the sewage from B. and C. wings flowed. The sewage of A. and D. flowed freely, being carried by another channel. In my monthly inspection on the 1st of March I found that the basements of two of the wings, namely, B. and C., were flooded with sewage matter which had flowed up. Steps were immediately taken to remedy it. I do not know how long the sewage had been there; it might have been there for two or three weeks; but I detected it on the monthly inspec- tion. The water was drained off. Previously to its being drained off we had not much sickness, and no great quantity of diarrhoea; but as soon as the water began to be drained off diarrhoea began to appear, and in the course of that month we had 43 cases of diarrhoea placed upon the sick list in those two wings; in the other two wings there were two cases of diarrhoea, but one case was that of a man in a con- sumption, and therefore inclined to diarrhoea; in fact he had had it for two months; so that we had 43 cases of diarrhoea in the two wings which were flooded by sewage, and only one case in the other two Wings. 2147. As soon as you put that matter into a con- dition to evaporate more rapidly the disease increased ? —Yes, as soon as the matter was exposed to the air. 2148. (Professor Way.) Would that have happened by effluence of time 2—I think that it would, but I merely give the bare facts. I have kept a register of the rainfall during the time that I have been at the prison, which I should wish to hand in (producing the same). 2149. (Chairman.) These are the monthly results of a daily register?—Yes. There is another point which I will mention. A few weeks ago a portion of the water used in the prison for supplying the boilers and also for washing the vegetables was obtained from the Balne Beck ; it became excessively offensive : a quantity of it was collected, and I have samples of it here. The water was very offensive to the smell, containing a great deal of sulphuretted hydrogen, and a great deal of vegetable matter. The Fibre Company were written to on behalf of the magistrates, and they stated that they would take measures to prevent any more of this water being poured into the Balne Beck, and it was done. This is a sample of water taken above the place from Balne Beck (producing the same). This (producing another sample) is water taken from a beck below where a drain from St. John's empties into it. This (producing another sample) is taken from the Yorkshire Fibre Company's outlet pipe. 2150. (Professor Way.) Do they use China-grass there 2–Yes, I believe that that is the material which they employ. This (producing another sample) is taken from the pipe by which the water is conveyed into the prison from Balne Beck, and this (producing another sample) is some water taken from one of our cisterns; of course it is an accumulated deposit. 2151. Is the last sample but one the water which you now use for domestic purposes?—No, it was used merely for washing potatoes and for such purposes. For drinking we do not use that water, we use the Waterworks Company's water. 2152. (Mr. Harrison.) These samples have nothing to do with the town water supply?—No ; except that the water, samples of which I have given, goes into the river ultimately. 2153. (Chairman.) I think you said that as regards its sweetness you had no fault to find with the water at present supplied by the Waterworks Company —No, the water is free from unpleasant smell and taste; the only objection which I entertain is a fear whether—supposing that the cause of cholera is the presence of living organic matter in the water, which being conveyed into the system of human beings poisons it—the process of filtration employed at the water- RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 65 works will remove such organic matter. I have no doubt that Mr. Spencer's process will remove all dead organic matter; but it is very probable, and certainly possible, that it will not have the same effect upon living organic matter, and that therefore a quantity of feculent matter from cholera patients when poured into the river may produce cholera in persons drinking the Water. - - 2154. (Professor Way.) Are they infusorial animal- culae 2–No; I think that the evacuations of cholera patients contain nitrogenous matter and epithelium, which retains its vitality. 2155. Does any of the water of the Waterworks Company contain such matter —I do not say that, I speak merely generally. 3156. (Chairman.) I suppose that you have seen in the London papers the statements made by the Registrar General, in which he attributes cholera to tainted water?—I have a very strong conviction that we take the poison in by our mouths, and that it is possibly conveyed from man to man by the water. 2157. Have you seen much of cholera —Yes. 2158. And do you form your opinion after investi- gation ?–No, it is more from my general information, and from a circumstance which I will mention. At the prison when we had these cholera cases, about one- third of the prisoners in the old prison by their occu- pations came more or less directly in contact with the cholera patients—for instance, all the washing was then done by men, and of course they came into con- tact with the soiled clothing—a number of other men were employed as nurses. We had an immense quan- tity of diarrhoea. Among that one-third of the men 14 out of our 27 cases of cholera occurred, whilst in the other two-thirds living in the same unhealthy prison we had only 13 cases; so that you may say roughly that 14 per cent, suffered from cholera who came in contact with the patients directly or indirectly, most of them being washers, while only six and a half per cent. had cholera who had been living in the same place and under the same unfavourable circum- stances, except that they had not been brought into active contact with cholera patients. 2159. (Professor Way.) By infection coming through the mouth you mean respiration as well as drinking 2—I think that if a man's hands are dirty from cholera emanations that contaminates his food. 2160. You said that those who came in contact with cholera patients died in greater numbers than those who did not ?—Yes. 2161. In what way do you account for that?—Their hands get dirty. 2162. Do you mean that those who would otherwise have escaped had touched the cholera patients —Yes, or their clothing. The amount of cholera was far greater, was certainly doubled among those who washed the clothes of the patients, or cleaned them, or carried them out, or acted as nurses. 2163. I suppose that that fact would generally be received as showing that the disease was infectious 2 —Yes. 2164. But you do not believe in that?—No. 2165. (Mr. Harrison.) Did the remainder of the patients in the gaol drink the town water —They all took the town water. 2166. Then I presume that the persons who washed the prisoners' clothes did not drink any of that water after washing —No, but they would not clean their hands. You may take an analogous case in lead poisoning. 2167. (Chairman.) Among plumbers? — Among plumbers and men engaged in lead works generally; if the manufacturers insist upon perfect cleanliness, and compel the workmen to change their clothes and clean their hands well and comb their hair before they go out, the colic is almost entirely done away with, whilst before those precautions were taken the number of persons killed or paralyzed by lead poisoning was im- mense. Here, I take it, it is the same—if the men get their hands dirty by cholera in any way the contamina- tion comes into contact with their food, and they take it into their stomachs, and they suffer from it. 2168. (Professor Way.) Has it ever happened to you to keep a quantity of the water supplied by the water company in a glass vessel ?—Yes. 2169. Does it show vegetation ?—Latterly it has not done so, formerly it did very rapidly. 2170. When you speak of formerly, you mean before they began to use the carbide filter?—Yes. The witness withdrew. The witness subsequently furnished to the Commission the following paper :- WAKE FIELD GAol. MATERIALs used in Manufacture, Dyeing, and Bleaching of Mats at the Prison. A.—Raw Materials used per ann. :- Cocoa yarn - - - 580 tons. Cocoa fibre - - - 130 ,, Spanish grass, Manilla, and other fibres - - - 50 , 780 tons. B-Mºº used in dyeing and bleaching the yarn per week : — Sulphuric acid - - - 360 lbs. Solution of chloride of tin - 30 lbs. Dye woods - - - 6 cwt. Sulphate of iron -- - 36 lbs. Alum - - - - 114 lbs. Chloride of lime - - 4 cwt. THoMAs G.WRIGHT, Esq., M.D. (Wakefield), examined. 2171. (Chairman.) How long have you practised in this district?—Thirty-four years. 2172. How many epidemics of cholera have you witnessed in Wakefield?—Two in Wakefield. 2173. At what dates?—In 1849 there was a great epidemic at the asylum, a few months previously there had been an outbreak in the town, but there were then no cases in the asylum. 2174. In the asylum in 1849 what number of patients had you?—About 620. 2175. What water were they drinking?—Water supplied by wells and springs belonging to the asylum. 2176. Within the grounds?—Yes. 2177. Was the asylum at that time sewered –It Was. 2178. Was there any suspicion that sewage con- taminated any of the wells?—That question was minutely inquired into, and in this book (producing the 17159.-2, same) is the report of Mr. West, of Leeds, and Mr. Dawson, who were commissioned to make inquiries into the drainage and sewerage of the asylum, and their report is that nothing unfavourable was there found, that the drains were all in good condition and clear. At that time there were two cesspools where the solid matter was received and which were emptied periodically, those have since been done away with. 2179. Was any analysis made of the drinking water at that period?—There was. 2180. Have you a copy of that analysis?—No ; but the result of the analysis was that it was a good pure spring water with only the ordinary proportion of lime which obtains in this district. 2181. Then the result of your examination was to show that, whatever the outbreak might be due to, you could not accuse the water 2–Not at all. 2182, Can you form any opinion as to the cause of the outbreak —This book is devoted to the subject. I WAKE- FIELD. Mr. W. R. Milner. 19 Oct. 1866. T. G. Wright, Esq., M.D. 66 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENC. E. WAKE- FIELD. T. G. Wright, Esq., M.D. 19 Oct. 1866. -- Rev. W. R. Bowditch. 2183. Can we obtain a copy of that book?—Ishall be most glad to place this book in the hands of the Commissioners; it is now some years old, it was pub- lished in 1850. 2184. Is it by yourself?—Yes. I may mention that I was for 20 years physician to the Fever Hospital of the town, that hospital was discontinued in 1853 because cases of fever had become so few that there not patients to require it ; after the usual number of 70 or 80 cases in a year, we had not more than five cases in the last year, much less fever than prevailed for some years; of late it has increased again. 2185. During the prevalence of the cholera in the asylum did the cholera at the same time prevail in the gaol 2–It had prevailed in the gaol in January 1849, it broke out in the asylum in September, and its greatest virulence was during October in that year. 2186. But it was not simultaneously in the gaol and in the asylum ?–It was not. Out of 620 patients in the asylum 103 died from cholera, therefore the cholera was fearful. 2187. Was there cholera in the town at the same time that the asylum was afflicted with it —I think that I have a record of one case of cholera in private practice during that autumn. 2188. Was there any cholera in the workhouse?— I do not recollect. 2189. Was the gaol supplied with a different water from that supplied to the asylum ?—Yes. (Mr. Milner.) We had the town's water in the gaol. (Dr. Wright.) The asylum was not supplied with the town’s water. 2190. Is the asylum supplied with the town's water now 2–Yes, it is partly supplied with the town's water. The asylum is now increased to 1,200 pa- tients, it had then only 620. 2191. Have you any reason to complain of the town's water now —No ; I use it in my own family and in my own dressing room; my wash-hand basin is supplied directly from the waterworks main, and therefore in using it every morning I have an opportu- nity of noticing it; it comes sparkling and clear now, it used to be very bad. 2192. Before the use of the carbide filter 2–Yes. It is a little harder than it was, at least that is my own experience in using it for washing purposes; but con- sidering the source from which it comes I think it is marvellously soft ; the source cannot be commended. 2.193. (Mr. Harrison.) Was the great impurity of the water previous to the year 1864?–Yes, and during the dry summer of 1864. 2194. Did not the water company then cleanse their subsiding reservoir º – Yes, alterations were going on then ; it was during the progress of those alterations that the water was at the worst. 2.195. And the company have taken other measures besides the use of carbide filters to give you a better supply –Yes. 2196. So that the improved condition of the water may be partly due to attention to those points, as well as to the use of the carbide –No doubt. (Mr. Sykes.) I wish to make a correction in my evidence. I stated that these improvements were going on in 1862, but I find on reference to my books that it was in 1864. 2197. (Professor Way.) That was I suppose the time of the introduction of the carbide?—Yes. 2198. (Chairman to Dr. Wright.) Do you think that the cholera prevailed in the old workhouse?—I have no doubt that it did. I was not professionally engaged then. (Mr. Morgan.) My impression, from what took place in the corporation, is, that it was in the work- house in 1849. (Mr. Milner.) I think that the outbreak in the workhouse was in the summer, intermediate between the outbreak at the gaol and the outbreak at the asylum. - The witness withdrew. The Rev. WILLIAM RENwick Bowditch (Wakefield) examined. 2199 (Chairman.) To what points do you wish to speak?—Perhaps I can give you information which may be useful with reference to the outbreak of cholera in 1849 at the asylum. At that time I pointed out what I conceived to be the cause to the then medical superintendent, Dr. Corsellis. It was not a medical cause and therefore he had very little faith in it. At length he was quite convinced that they could not subdue the outbreak, and he said that they were willing to do what I suggested. I daresay you know that the asylum is situated upon rising ground. Their drainage falls to the south, and is then deposited in two large sump-holes. Whenever the wind came from the south the cholera became bad. Whenever the wind came from the north the virulence of the attack abated. The disease I told Dr. Corsellis was produced, in my opinion, by the decomposition of the sewage in these drains, the wind passing up the drains, and then freely into the building ; and I told him that the cure for the cholera was to stop off this air current, to turn it up the chimney, and then to disinfect the place, and that I thought that if that was done he would have no more cholera. We met at the railway station, he threw away his ticket which he had taken, and went back and asked me if I would send up some- body to disinfect the place. These drains were then turned into an air-channel through the chimney, all the drains communicating with the building were trapped, and the building was thoroughly disinfected, upwards of 7 cwt. of manganese were used, and the asylum never had another case of cholera, so Dr. Corsellis told me. (Dr. Wright.) This is quite new to me. (Mr. Bowditch.) In my opinion the cause of the cholera was the partial oxidation of the sewage in the drains. (Colonel Smyth.) That drain is closed now. (Mr. Bowditch.) As soon as these emanations were turned up the chimney, instead of into the building, the cholera stopped and they never had another case. 2200. (Mr. Harrison.) What was the date of turning the gas up the chimney —I know none of the details, Imerely made the suggestion, the work was done by the officers of the Riding. I know nothing more than the mere fact that the cholera ceased as soon as the cause of the cholera (if it was the cause of it) was cut off. The fumigation was a mere auxiliary. 2201. What other points do you wish to speak to ? —I heard Mr. Spencer's evidence yesterday, which I think went the length of stating that the carbide used liberally enough would destroy all organic matter in water, whether it was nitrogenized or not. That may may be the fact ; but in Wakefield I do not think that they use it quite liberally enough, for the water at this moment, and ever since Mr. Spencer's process has been adopted, contains a considerable quantity of nitrogenized organic matter which will putrefy, and does putrefy, and smells badly. For instance, at pre- sent, if the water is put into a newly-washed decanter it always throws down a precipitate which putrefies. (Mr. Sykes.) I may say that at the present time we are about laying down double the quantity of surface of filter. Since this inquiry commenced some stress has been laid on the fact that we have not had an analysis of the water previously to its entering the filters; I shall take upon myself to recommend our Directors to get a series of analyses, commencing with the river and ending with the reservoir. I have spoken to Mr. Spencer about it, and I think that we shall adopt that method, and if so I will forward to the Commissioners the result. (Mr. Bowditch.) The water is sensibly improved, that is beyond a question, but there still remains a quantity of this offensive organic matter which it is very desirable to get rid of. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to Monday next, at 11 o'clock, at Dewsbury. RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 67 Dewsbury, Monday, 22nd October 1866. PRESENT: ROBERT RAWLINSON, ESQ., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THORNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Professor John THOMAS WAY. Mr. William Wood (of Dewsbury) examined. 2202. (Chairman.) You are the borough surveyor? —Yes. 2203. How long have you been surveyor to this borough 2–I was assistant for three years, and have been borough surveyor for three years. 2204. What is the population of Dewsbury –At the last census it was a little over 18,000. 2204a. Is it a growing place –It has been grow- ing at the rate of 800 persons in the year since I have known it. 2205. What is the amount of the present popula- tion ?—About 20,000 now. 2206. What is the principal business carried on here 2–Woollen manufacturing is the staple trade. 2207. Is water largely used for that purpose?— Yes. 2208. Is Dewsbury sewered 2–Yes, it is sewered, but not completely ; some drains are stone drains ; what we have put down since I came here are made of brick, egg-shaped. We have laid down four miles of that description of drainage in six years. 2209. Where are the outlets –We have six sepa- rate outlets in consequence of the irregularity of the surface, but they are all turned into the river. 2210. Do you remember the dimensions of those outlets —They are three feet square as near as I can judge. 2211. Are they nearly all square outlets?—Yes, they are old-fashioned outlets. 2212. Are the new brick sewers connected with those old-fashioned outlets 2–Yes. 2213. Are the sewers ventilated 2–Yes, by man- holes. 2214. Have you any plan of them —No. 2215. They are made to plans are they not *—No : we made them with our own men. 2216. With what do you cover them at the surface —An iron grating. 2217. Can you remove that easily –Yes. 2218. Who was the engineer who laid out the new sewers ?—There was a plan before I came which seems to have been commenced and never completed. I never could find any sections of it. 2219. Do you know by whom the plan was made * —By Messrs. Turley and Rowell, of Bradford. 2220. Have you got the Ordnance sheet showing the sewers and outlets 2–No. 2221. Could you not show them on a 6-inch Ord- nance map *—Yes. 2222. What is the area of the borough?–1,468 statute acres. 2223. Is there a water supply for Dewsbury — Yes. 2224. It is combined I think with the supply for some other places?–It is for Dewsbury, Heckmond- wicke, and Batley. 2225. Are those places supplied under a private Act of Parliament 2–Yes. - 2226. Has there been any scarcity of water in the last summer ?–No. 2227. I believe some of the works are not com- pleted 2–One of the reservoirs is out of repair, the embankment has given way. 2228. Have you any plan prepared for the complete sewerage of Dewsbury —No. 2229. Are there many private streets in the town that are not paved —Yes; but we keep constantly doing them : we have three or four on hand now, but a good few are not paved. 2230. What causes the filth near the railway station? —That is in consequence of the town not being paved. We use ironstone throws instead of sets; they are not fit for the traffic in Dewsbury, it is too heavy. 2231. You use ironstone in the shape of macadam : —Yes. 2232. Do you find any difficulty from that getting into drains and sewers and choking them up 2–Yes. 2233. Have you had any complaints from the Aire and Calder Navigation of refuse passed into the river ? —No. 2234. There is both a river and a canal here I believe 2–Yes. 2235. Do any of the outlets discharge into the canal 2–No, all into the river. 2236. Is the river navigable —Partly so. 2237. Have no complaints been made –We have not any drains that go in where it is navigable; they go in where it is not navigable. 2238. Have you noticed whether, after great rain- falls, banks have been formed where the outlet sewers discharge —No, not anything of that sort. 2239. Have complaints been made by manufacturers of your sending sewage in and fouling the river ?— No. 2240. Have you seen solids of any kind, such as foundation materials or ashes, thrown into the river ? —I have seen what is called logwood refuse from the dyeworks. I believe that that is rather too extensively thrown into the river. 2241. Dyeing material, or spent water from dyeing pits, I suppose goes into the river ?–Yes, all of it. 2242. Is there an inspector of nuisances in Dews- bury –Yes; he is scavenger, inspector of nuisances and common lodging-houses. 2243. Are there many common waterclosets or soil- pans in the town, or are they all ashpits and middens f —We have a few waterclosets, but not many; ashpits and middens are principally used. 2244. Are the better class of houses and hotels provided with waterclosets?—Yes they are, I think, all of them. 22.45. And the cottages, I suppose, have their cess- pit and ash-heap 2–Yes; there is a midden which is a little below the surface of the room, and a privy in connexion with it. 2246. Are the ashpits so close to the cottages as to cause a nuisance 2–In new erections the local board obliges the parties to put them four yards from the dwellings. 2247. I am referring to the old ones; in what con- dition are they —I believe they are pretty closely looked after by the inspector. 2248. Do you make stipulations, when you are sur- veying a place, as to whether there shall or shall not be waterclosets made 2–We do not. 2249. Then if any person who is building cottages wishes to put up waterclosets in the place of middens, would any objection be made 2–None whatever. 2250. Do you know how water is supplied to the cottages ; is it supplied at a rental of so much per week —Yes; so much a quarter. It is 2s. 2d. per quarter to the cottages. 2251. Is there a constant supply?—Yes. 2252. Then it is supplied, I presume, according to a rental to the larger houses 2–Yes; it gradually in creases, according to the size of the house, from 2s. 2d. to 5s. and 10s. per quarter. 2253. Are the ash middens emptied by men who are employed by the corporation?—The corporation has not taken that matter up themselves. 2254. Are they emptied by the individuals who occupy the tenements 2 – Yes; and if the nuisance DEWSBURY. - Mr. W. Wood. 22 Oct. 1866. --- I 2 68 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. DEWSBURY. Mr. W. Wood. - 22 Oct. 1866. Mr. T. Goodall. inspector sees that they are neglected, he sends the scavengers cart and takes the soil away for them. 2255. At the cost of the corporation ?–Yes. 2256. Have you seen any places where sewage has been applied to land 2–I have not. 2257. Have you seen any places where sewage has been taken into reservoirs or tanks to get the solid material out of it —No. 2258, Your attention has not been called to any- thing of that kind 2–No. 2259. You are not at all aware that there has been any attempt made to prevent the cottagers using water- closets if they liked 2–I have heard of nothing of the kind. 2260. Are any of the old cottages without any conveniences of that kind –Yes; there are a few, I believe. - The witness withdrew. Mr. TIMOTHY GooDALL (of Dewsbury) examined. 2261. (Chairman.) How long have you been in- spector of nuisances – Six years. 2262. What number of men are placed at your disposal –Seven. 2263. Do you make any reports as to the nuisances you find to the town council, or the town clerk, or the health committee ?—I make reports regularly every fortnight. 2264. What number of horses and carts do you employ —I have at the present time one horse and One cart. 2265. In what condition did you find the town when you first began your inspection ?—There was a great deal of filth. 2266. Can you mention the names of any places that were in the worst condition ?—The worst place was at Daw Green. 2267. In what respect was that the worst 2– Because there were many Irish people living there, and they do not keep their cottages as clean as they ought to do. 2268. Was the surface paved round about their houses —No, it was unpaved. 2269. Had they any privy accommodation ?—Yes. 2270. In what condition was that ?—It was in a filthy state. 2271. Did they fill the privies up until the refuse ran over the floor and over the seat 2–Yes, some of them. 2272. Was there any disease in those houses 2– Not particularly. 2273. Has there been any fever in Dewsbury since you began your inspections —Nothing to speak of. There have been cases, but nothing to cause any alarm. 2274. Has there been any cholera —No. 2275. Does not typhus fever occur in the town in particular places —We have, of course, some cases of fever, but we have never had such an outbreak as to cause any alarm. 2276. You think you are no worse than your neigh- bours ?—No. 2277. Nor worse than Dewsbury was before ?— No ; I may say that we were never in a more healthy state than we are now. 2278. How long do you remember the condition of the river ?—I have resided in Dewsbury between 40 and 50 years. 2279, Is the river dirtier now than it was when you first knew it —Yes; it is discoloured by the dyeworks. 2280. Do you remember seeing fish in the river ?— Yes. 2281. Did you ever catch any 3–Yes. 2282. Do you believe you could catch one now — I believe that I could not. 2283. Are any complaints made by manufacturers as to the foul state of the river ?—I never heard of any; but manufacturers are the cause of it, and therefore they do not complain. 2284. Do you ever see any dead carcases floating in the river—dogs or pigs?—I have seen dogs and pigs too. 2285. If your men were to find any dead dogs about the streets, what would they do with them 2–I have ordered them to bury them, and not throw them into the river. - 2286. Do you ever have them buried ?—I do. 2287. Have you enjoyed tolerably good health yourself during your inspections —I never had a day's illness. 2288. Have your men also had good health 2– They are generally in good health. 2289. When complaints have been made of those foul ashpits, have any of your men suffered from the smell?—Never. 2290. I suppose sometimes those places do smell very badly –They do. 2291. And cause a great nuisance in the neighbour- hood —Yes, while the cleansing is going on. 2292. Do you think any arrangement could be made by which that kind of refuse should be prevented from accumulating 2–Yes. 2293. Could it not be arranged, for example, that the accumulations should be removed at shorter intervals, so as to be prevented altogether?—Yes. 2294. Have you seen any of the common soil-pans that are used by cottagers?—No, I have not. 2295. (Mr. Harrison.) What becomes of dirt from pigstyes in case of heavy rains?—It generally drains off, but some cottagers who keep pigs will make a sumphole and put down a tub to catch the refuse, in order to sell it to manufacturers for scouring purposes. 2296. Is a good deal of pig manure collected for manufacturing purposes —Yes. 2297. Do they collect urine from the inhabitants as well to cleanse cloth 2–Yes. 2298. Is that very generally done?—Yes. 2299. What price do they pay for urine?—They go round with a kit, and give, I think, a penny or a penny halfpenny a kit-full or tubfull—a bucket or handcan-full, holding two or three gallons. 2300. How do they convey it from the houses 2– They have large barrels. 2301. Is it a great nuisance when it is carried about?—I should think not. The smell might be offensive, but I do not think it is injurious. 2302. How is slaughtering carried on in Dews- bury —There are private slaughtering-houses. 2303. What becomes of the refuse?—They collect it into tubs, and take it away to farms, and use it for Inanure. 2304. Is no part of it washed into the river ?—Not much of it; there might be a little blood go when they wash the slaughter-house floors. 2305. Are they generally kept pretty clean 2–The principal part of them are kept very clean. 2306. Refuse from pigs, urine from inhabitants, and refuse from slaughter-houses, are all kept from going into the river, and utilized, either for manufac- turing purposes, or put upon the land 2–Yes. 2307. Do you exercise your functions at all upon the banks of the river ?—If I saw any person throw- ing anything into the river, I should threaten to summon them. 2308. Such as what ?–Like dead fish. I have seen that done sometimes, and if I saw them attempt to do it, I should threaten to summon them before the magistrates. 2309. (Chairman.) In performing the duties of in- spector of nuisances, do you regularly inspect the slaughter-houses 2–Yes. 2310. You inspect those within the borough 2– Yes. 2311. Do you recollect how many there are 2– About a dozen. The witness withdrew. RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 69 Mr. JAMES WEATHERHILL (of Batley) examined. 2312. (Chairman.) Are you surveyor and inspector of nuisances at Batley –I used to be ; I am not now. 2313. For how many years were you surveyor – For eight years, very nearly. - 2314. How many years were you inspector of nuisances —Five. 2315. Is Batley sewered 2–Partly. 2316. Where are the outlets?—Into the beck, partly. 23.17. How many of them are there —A great number. 2318. Have you any idea how many there are? —No. 2319. Do you mean that each of the streets that runs down that way has an outlet —No, not all of them ; there might be half a score or more. 2320. As many as 10 outlets?—Yes. 2321. Has there been any complaint by manufac- turers below, of the outlets going into the beck —No. 2322. What passes out from them besides sewage : do any mills send their dye water into the sewers ? —In one instance. 2323. At one end of the town 2–No, in the centre. 2324. Are the sewers ventilated ?–Yes. 2325. In what way ?—By the fall pipes from the house eaves being connected with the drains. 2326. Have you any independent means of ventila- tion ?–No; only shafts covered over with stones, so that we can get down to them for the purpose of repairing and cleansing. 2327. Are many of the houses drained 2–Where we have cut new drains. 2328. Have many of the cottages waterclosets, or have they all ashpits and privies?—They have the latter. 2329. Do you cleanse those ashpits and privies, or are the people allowed to cleanse them —They are cleansed by the occupiers when they are full. 2330. Have they a difficulty in getting farmers to take the refuse away –Yes. 2331. When farmers are busy with their harvest and during seed time —Yes; then they have to give money to get it taken away. 2332. How much do they pay to a farmer to take away a two-horse load 2–1s. 2333. Then he would take his own time, I suppose, about it?—Yes. 2334. During the time the ashpit is being emptied, is it a nuisance to the district 2–Yes, it is a nuisance. 2335. In any cases is it necessary to carry or wheel the refuse through the lobby of the house, or through the house?—There is only one instance that I know of like that. 2336. Have public-houses these ashpits and mid- dens 2–They have. 2337. Do you find them very foul when they are emptied ?–Yes; the same as others. 3338. Are they not rather fouler than some others? —Yes, because they are more used. 2339. Is there much pig keeping by cottagers in the town, and if so, where does the refuse go to ?– The cottagers have a tank made to receive that, and they sell it for scouring purposes. 2340. Is urine from cottages sold also for scouring purposes 2–Yes. 2341. How much do the people get for it 2–1}d. or 2d. a kit full for a strike or half a bushel. 2342. How many gallons is that?—Perhaps six or eight gallons. 2343. Is that supposed to be pure urine, without water —Yes. 2344. Do they ever keep it till it becomes a nuisance –They have not an opportunity of keeping it so long ; carts go round and collect it. 2345. Is it kept inside or outside of the houses?— Outside, in a tub. Millowners furnish the cottagers with tubs, and they deposit it in them. 2346. How much will a cottager make in a year out of that kind of refuse 2–I do not know. (Mr. Jubb.) Perhaps 5s. a year. 2347. (To the witness.) How many scavengers have you employed under you ?—I have about 53 men employed altogether. 2348. Masons, paviors, excavators, scavengers, and stone getters?—Yes. 2349. How many horses and carts have you ?— About four or five ; sometimes six. 2350. Do you ever tip road scrapings into the beck or into the river ?—We have never done so yet. 2351. Do any manufacturers tip foundation materials in 2–Not that I have seen. 2352. Have you any difficulty in getting rid of foundation materials or road scrapings —Sometimes I have found very great difficulty in getting rid of them. I have had to pay 4d. per load to deposit them. 2353. How do you get rid of them now 2–They are used for tillage partly on the land. We cart them to where they want them, where they are filling up for building. 2354. Do any manufacturers put their ashes into the beck, or so that the rain will wash them down into the beck in times of flood —Yes, they do. 2355. You cannot interfere with it --Yes, I should. think we had power to do so. 2356. Have you ever interfered with it —Never. 2357. (Mr. Harrison.) As inspector of nuisances, is your attention drawn to refuse thrown into the beck : —Yes, on several occasions, but I have not interfered. 2358. In going about the town have you observed the different kinds of refuse that are thrown into the beck 2–I have, 2359. Do you know Mr. Jubb's shoddy mill?— Yes. 2360. Have you heard what he has stated, that there is no refuse thrown in from his mill 2–I have. 2361. Can you corroborate what he has stated, that there is none –Yes, except a little dust that comes from the flue, but which is very small. 2362. How far round the country do manufacturers send those carts for the urine; all round the neighbour- hood —They go into other townships to fetch it; to mills in Batley. The witness withdrew. John JUBB, Esq. (of Batley), examined. 2363. (Chairman.) You are chairman of the Batiey local board of health —Yes. 2364. Is Batley a township adjoining to Dewsbury —It is. 2365. Is it a corporate town 2–No. 2366. How long has the Local Government Act been in force in Batley —The Public Health Act was in force in the first instance. The local board of health was instituted 14 years since. 2367. How long have you been chairman of the board 2–I was chairman for the first three years, but I have only occupied the chair this last time since last March. 2368. What is the population of Batley —At the last census it was 14,000; it has just doubled in 20 years; in 1841 it was about 7,000, and in 1861 it was 14,000; we estimate it now at 18,000. 2369. Are there many manufactories in Batley?— Yes, a great number. 2370. What is the chief trade carried on ?—The heavy woollen trade, such as pilot cloths and blankets. 2371. Is it necessary to use water for those manu- facturing purposes —Yes. 2372. In what business are you engaged ?–I am engaged in the rag-wool trade for manufactures. I have been a manufacturer of cloth myself, but I gave it up some years ago, and I now follow the business of importing and manufacturing rag-wool—wool that is made from woollen rags, and is imported from Den- mark, Germany, and Austria. DEWSBURY. Mr. J. Weatherhill. 22 Oct. 1866. J. Jubb, Esq. - I 3 70 RIVERS COMMISSION:--MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, DEWSBURY. J. Jubb, Esq. 22 Oct. 1866. 2373. Is that what is called shoddy ?—Yes. 2374. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the distinction be- tween shoddy and mungo 2–Shoddy is pulled up from stockings, flannels, and guernseys. Mungo is made from fine cloth, such as you and I have on our backs In OW. 2375. (Chairman.) Have complaints ever been made of disease being introduced by the bales of old goods which have been brought into the country?–No, and it is wonderful to think that it is so free as it is. We have never had among the rag sorters and grinders any particular disease all the time that I have been en- gaged in the trade, and I have been in it now between 30 and 40 years. 2376. The materials have been in contact with all sorts of people —They come from all parts of the world—Egypt and different parts of Italy, and from Australia as well. 2377. In breaking up the bales, opening out the materials, teazing and dressing them to your know- ledge no form of disease has been occasioned? —I never knew of such a case in my life, nor ever heard talk of one. We have had rags from Poland, Austria, Naples, and other places. 2378. How long have you known the river Calder, and the streams about here 2–Nearly 50 years, indeed all my life. 2379. What is their condition now as compared with what it was when you first knew them –Very dif- ferent, they are very much worse. 2380. Are the rivers and streams more polluted 2– Yes, I used to fish in the streams up here when I was a boy. I have also fished in the Calder. 2381. What kind of refuse is usually poured out into the river by manufacturers ?–Solids; and I am sorry to say that some put their ashes into the beck from the furnace. WareS. 2382. You mean spent logwood 2–Yes, after the virtue has been extracted from it, manufacturers to get rid of it, throw it into the streams. Then there are the suds, as they are called ; but they are not so bad as they were formerly. Manufacturers There is also refuse from dye now obtain nearly all the solid matter for the purpose of making it into oil and soap again. 2383. They have begun to reconvert the suds here 2 —Yes, at nearly every mill. 2384. Are there any mills at which it is not done * —I do not know one. Where they manufacture cloth they use soap, but at my place we do not use it, and therefore we have no process to perform. 2385. The river is polluted above and below you ? —Yes. 2386. It is generally polluted 2–Yes. 2387. At the present time there are no local regu- lations by which the pollution may be prevented 2– No, there are not. We are putting down new sewers in Batley, and improving the place by flagging and paving very much. 2388. All the sewage of Batley, I assume, goes into the river ?—Yes, it goes into the beck and into the river. We have no outlet for it, nor any receptacle. 2389. I suppose you have not visited any places where sewage is applied to land 2–I was at Cocker- mouth in August last, and saw some sewage works outside the town, including the receptacle for sewage. I believe that the works were very new, and had not got into full operation. I am convinced that the application of sewage to land is possible to be done, if there is convenience for it. We are short of land here, and our mills are pressed for space, or else if they could find conveniences to put sewage irrigation into operation I have no doubt that it would be feasible. 2390. Do you know of any mills on the streams where they have either voluntarily adopted, or have been compelled by law to adopt, means to prevent all their refuse going into the river ?—I do not know of any case where the attempt has been made. 2391. Do you know of any cases in which lawsuits have been commenced by persons occupying manufac- tories below against persons above them 2–Yes, I do. I know that our vicar has had a lawsuit with a party on that very point. 2392. On what ground was the proceeding taken 2– It was for turning in sediment or suds which polluted the stream. 2393. How did it end ?–The vicar gained his CauSe. 2394. Did the pollution of the river cease ?—I think it did. 2395. How did the parties manage then 2–They bought all the land between the beck and their mill, and they then put this stuff into the beck at a point below the vicar's land. - 2396. Some person is wanted below to enter an action against them again —The mischief was a very little matter, but it was sufficient to injure the vicar. 2397. Does not this instance show that there is in the common law of England power to prevent pollution if you can only induce persons to incur the expense of putting it in force –It would seem SO. 2398. What is the rateable value of the property in your township 2–About 42,000l. 2399. What amount of debt have you incurred for sanitary purposes?—All the debt that we have incurred is on account of waterworks. - 2400. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the name of the Batley Beck?—It has no particular name, it is called the Beck. 2401. Are there many manufactories all the way up it —Yes, every 200 yards. 2402. Does the river provide you with water not merely for household purposes but for manufacturing purposes?—We have been short every year but this year for both purposes; this is an exceptional year. 2403, The reservoir supply is both for domestic and for manufacturing purposes —For domestic pur- poses first, and then for manufacturing purposes. 2404. In the preparation of the shoddy have you to deal with much dust and dirt 2–Yes. 2405. What becomes of that ?—It is all collected to go on to the land for manure. 2406. It is not put into streams?—No, it is too valuable for that. 2407. (Chairman.) Do you know whether it was put in at first P-I think it was not. 2408. Is the dust blown out 2–Yes; in the first place the dust goes under the ground through flues. I have a chimney outside to cause a draught to draw it from the machines, we empty about once a week all those receptacles. 2409. In manufacturing shoddy does any refuse go into the beck 2–None whatever. 2410. There is no pollution at all from your shoddy mill P-None whatever. 2411. What class of manufactures do you think liable to pollute the rivers and becks the most 2– Dyers are as bad as any, because there are chemicals used in those establishments; they use a deal of copperas to fix the colours. - 2412. (Mr. Harrison.) May we take it for granted that in the manufacture of shoddy there is no occasion to pollute the rivers —I cannot see that there is. 2413. What should you say river pollution is caused by most –There is sewage from the town for which there is no other outlet, and which is a serious thing ; nobody has attempted to prevent people from putting into the river anything they choose, such as dead dogs, dead cats, &c. I think it would be well if somebody was appointed to look after those things. - 2414. If your shoddy can be uscully applied to the land, do you not think that sewage might be pro- perly applied and be quite as useful?—Yes, I think so. 2415. What is shoddy supposed to be good for 2– The oily matters contained in it are valuable. 2416. To what plants would you apply it, to any particular garden plants —No, it is not much used for them ; I daresay it might be used for celery; it is of a very warm nature, and does not answer if RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 7 i put in large quantities on to grassland, it makes the grass too wild. 2417. Is it principally used for dressing ploughed land for turnips ?–Yes, and partly for grass and potatoes too. 2418. How many hundredweight of dust do you think you could obtain from a ton of shoddy?–1 should get, I think, three hundredweight from a ton on the average. Then there is another article that is made from the rags, flock for bedding. 2419. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you make that as well as the shoddy ?—Yes. 2420. Is that similar in character –Yes. 2421. (Chairman.) Is flock made from old woollen garments?—Yes, many of the mills do nothing else than make it. - 2422. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you blow the whole of the three hundredweight out of a ton of shoddy?— It goes out in the grinding. 2423. Shoddy is not so clean as to be in a fit state to send to the manufacturers, is it?–Yes. 2424. You do not wash it, do you?—No, we do not, but I know many parties who do. 2425. (Chairman.) Is it bleached as well?-No, it is merely dried. 2426. (Mr. Harrison.) Is it not subsequently washed before it is used for making cloth *-No, washing is an unnecessary process, and only adds to the expense of the article when made. 2427. (Chairman.) There are fine particles that fly off from the shoddy as dust?—Yes, it cannot be entirely freed; some people are at the pains to re- riddle the dust and thus save some particles. 2428. Which particles would be used for manu- facture and the remainder goes away in dust so that none of the refuse from shoddy finds its way into the beck —No. 2429. Do you know of any instance in Yorkshire where the refuse goes into the river ?–No ; but with draught in the chimney, if any dust goes up the chimney it might spread a little and reach the beck. 2430. You would not call that pollution ?–No. 2431. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you give us any other information as to the pollution ?–In the first place the town sewage all goes into the beck, and there is no other outlet or receptacle for it; secondly, the beck is polluted by refuse from the manufactories, such as oily and greasy matters, but less so than for- merly, as a great portion of the solid matter is now, by a certain process, obtained for making into oil and soap again; thirdly, the beck has been, and I fear is still, obstructed by persons on the stream putting in ashes, dye wares, and other such refuse. 2432. There is no excuse for their doing that *- No, there is not. The trade is that of the manufac- ture of heavy woollen goods, such as pilot cloths, and there are about 50 mills so engaged in the township. There are no floods, except when there are very heavy showers, or long continued falls of rain. The supply of water is partly from the natural watershed, which is very much supplemented by pumping at the various mills, and also by the waterworks to some extent. The acreage in the township is from 1,900 to 2,000. 2433. The refuse of the shoddy is valuable, and you make a profit by it —Yes. 2434. What is the worth of a ton of refuse from shoddy?—About 10s, a ton for land purposes. We send it to Kent, and we get twice that amount for it for hop growing. Not only the dust but the waste is sent to Kent. 2435. Does 11. a ton include the carriage to Kent —No, to the place of delivery here, viz., the railway station. 2436. (Chairman.) Is scouring with urine and pig's dung still considered better than any chemical prepa- ration that could be used?—Both ingredients are used together, and answer very well. I believe scouring is a very healthy occupation, although the ingredients used have a strong smell. - 2437. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you worked practi- cally at the mills yourself?–Yes, at every process. 2438. Are machines generally used in this neigh- bourhood for cleansing the wool –Wool scouring generally is done by machine. Not all is scoured. Some of it is scoured when it comes to hand, and some is mixed without being scoured. 2439. What materials are used in scouring wool?— Chiefly or exclusively soap. 2440. Do you know whether the suds are reclaimed in your neighbourhood —They are. 2441. Are they entirely saved 2–Yes. 2442. The whole of the water that is used in cleaning is saved?—Yes, it runs through certain sieves into bags, and is saved in that way. 2443. There is no occasion for any refuse from that process going into the river ?—They take care to keep it out, because it is a very valuable commodity. 2444. It was stated at Wakefield that not more than half of the total quantity as yet is saved. Mr. Teall stated that?–Perhaps so. 2445. Have you been a dyer —Not myself; but we had a dye-house when I was a manufacturer. 2446. Can you suggest any means of preventing the pollution of the river by refuse from dyeworks?–1 do not know what is to be done. Even if manu- factories had receptacles to run the refuse into, and then let the water run off so as to leave a sedi- ment, I think the effluent water would still be impreg- nated with the dye, unless they could deodorize it and kill the chemical properties. 2447. In the subsequent process of scouring the wool they again use soap and urine —Yes, that is after it is made into cloth. 2448. Do they now save the refuse from that and send it with the soapsuds?—Yes. 2449. Do you know sufficient of the manufacture to be able to say whether the whole of the refuse might be saved from that process as well as from the cleaning of the wool?—I believe they try to save it as much as possible. It is their interest to do so. 2450. The only pollution of the river that you cannot see your way to remedying, in the manufacture of cloth, is that which is occasioned by the dyeing 2– Yes, I consider that to be the greatest difficulty. 2451. All other refuse you think ought to be kept out of the river ?—Yes. 2452. (Chairman.) Do you know Bierley?—No, but I know it is near Bradford. 2453. Do you know Birkenshaw 2–Yes. 2454. What manufactures are carried on there 2– There is a large worsted mill belonging to Messrs. Akroyd, and one or two woollen mills. 2455. Is there any pollution that comes down from Birkenshaw -—I am not sure, but I cannot see how it could be otherwise. - 2456. Do you know Great Gomersall?–Yes, 2457. Is there any manufacturing carried on there 2 —Yes, woollen and some worsted manufacturing. 2458. Does any pollution come down from there 2 —I think the Gomersall water will run this way, and it would be no doubt polluted to a certain extent. 2459. Then Burstall; do you know that ?–Yes; that is, on the same stream between Gomersall and Bat- ley; and there are woollen manufactures there. 2460. There will be some pollution from that part 2 —Yes, our beck finds its rise at Birkenshaw. 2461. Great Gomersall is on one side and Birken- shaw on the other ?–Yes, all the refuse comes into this same beck. 2462. It comes through Batley and into the main stream below 2–Yes. 2463. Heckmondwike is upon another stream, is it not 2–Yes. 2464. The stream comes from Cleckheaton 2–Yes. 2465. Are there any manufactories there 2–Yes. 2466. And at Hunsworth —Yes, there are manu- factures the whole way up. 2467. Are there any at Liversege?—There are some there. 2468. Are all those places growing in population? —Yes. --- - DEWSBURY. J. Jubb, Esq. 22 Oct. 1866. - 1 4 'ſ 2 RIVERS COMMISSION:—-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. - DEWSBURY. J. Jubb, Esq. - 22 Oct. 1866. Mr. J. T. Marriott, 2469. Are manufactures also extending 2–Yes, at all places except Gomersall; that is at a standstill. 2470. Supposing that the rivers, streams, and becks continue to be neglected, and that manufactures, population, and pollution extend as much during the next 20 years as they have in the last 20 years, what condition do you expect the streams and becks will then be in 2–I should think they will be in a dreadful State. 2471. Do you think it is likely that the streams will be so polluted that the water will be rendered totally unfit for manufacturing purposes?—It is beyond a question that they must become so, unless we could have more water from the waterworks. We should have been at a dead lock long since but for the water that is pumped up at the mills from underground. 2472. It has been stated that manufacturers would rather have the river left in its present polluted con- dition than be interfered with. What is your opinion upon that point?— I daresay that some of them are as selfish as that, but such persons ought not to be noticed. All ought to be compelled to refrain from polluting the river. 2473. But you hope that whatever regulations are made will carry common sense with them —Yes, they must be practicable. 2474. And what manufacturers can be reasonably expected to perform —Yes. 2475. Supposing you heard manufacturers declare, with regard to this Commission, that there was no necessity for the inquiry we are conducting, what should you say ?—I have already had that put to me, and I have told the parties that I thought there was a necessity, and that something should be done. 2476. (Mr. Harrison.) Do the county police come within your jurisdiction at all 2–Yes. 2477. If any measures were carried out for the purpose of obliging manufacturers to keep their refuse out of rivers and becks, it would be necessary, I sup- pose, that some one should look after them to see that they did so, and it has been suggested that an inspector or sergeant of the county police would be the proper person to report. Do you think that that system would answer —I think it would be preferable to employ a person independent of local influence, instead of em- ploying a person in the place. 2478. You think that it would be necessary to do that ?—Yes. 2479. And that the county police would be the proper parties to report upon the matter —I think so. They would be the most independent of any local influence that might be brought to bear upon them. 2480. (Chairman.) Have you anything further to state 2–Only that lately the town has been greatly improved in paving, flagging, and sewering. 2481. And you are going on improving it —We are improving it at a very rapid rate. The witness withdrew. Mr. John THOMAS MARRIOTT (Batley) examined. 2482. (Chairman.) What are you ? — A cotton merchant. I manufacture cotton warps. 2483. At Batley —Yes. 2484. Are you a member of the local board of Batley —I am. 2485. Are you acquainted with the condition of the river and becks near Batley —Yes. 2486. How long have you known them —Nearly all my life. I was apprenticed in Dewsbury. 2487. Are they much worse now than they were when you were a boy?—Very much. 2488. From what does the pollution generally arise? —Chiefly from dyeworks. 2489. Ashes 2–I cannot say that the river suffers very materially at this part from ashes, it does so near Huddersfield very much. The river Holme comes down and enters the river Calder a little beyond Mirfield. 2490. And brings in all the refuse which it has collected 2–Yes. The Calder runs down from Tod- morden and Halifax. 2491. What pollution comes down from Tod- morden 2–There is not very much until near Brig- house. 2492. What refuse comes in there 2–Refuse chiefly from the same causes as down below here, though not to the same extent. There is a large trade in cotton at Brighouse. 2493. Cotton is the manufacture at Todmorden, is it not ?–Yes; the river is not very impure there. The water is most impure in the stream flowing from beyond Holmfirth down the Huddersfield valley, in fact the whole of the stream from Huddersfield to- wards Horbury is polluted from the same cause: 2494. Are new mills growing up in the district — An immense number. 2495. At this very time?—Yes. 2496. And I suppose each will add its quota of pol- iution ?–They have not all dye-houses attached to them. The greatest amount of nuisance in this dis- trict arises from dye-houses and from sewage. 2497. Town sewage?—Yes. 2498. Do mills also send their sewage in 2–Yes; cut the treatment of fatty and oily matter from the manufacture is made a regular business of, and is collected. 2499. Waste soap refuse ?—Yes. 2500. Have you also heard that materials blown out of shoddy are taken 2–Yes; that is now a very valuable article of commerce. 2501. Have you formed any idea as what could be done to prevent the growing pollution so as not to injure trade 3–Not with respect to dye matter, but I think it very desirable that a system of econo- mising the solid refuse of sewage should be carried out. 2502. Have you any idea as to how dye pollution is to be prevented –Perhaps as Mr. Jubb said, it can be deodorized by some process. 2503. Sewage can be prevented from going in 2– Yes. It is a matter of carelessness to allow dye- woods to go down the beck, because they might be used for fuel. 2504. You mean spent logwood and other mate- rials 2–Yes. 2505. If they collected it they could consume it under the boilers ?—Yes. 2506. Do you know any one place where that is done –Yes, several; for instance, at Old Craft at Batley, that is the instance which was mentioned by the surveyor. 2507. Refuse from the dyewoods is in some in- stances collected partially, and in other instances wholly, and you think that it may be collected en- tirely –Yes. 2508. And that it may be got rid of without any serious cost to the parties themselves?—Yes. If consumed in the furnaces it would be an advantage. 2509. It can be mixed with small coal —Yes. 2510. Do you know any dyeworks where an attempt has been made to take foul matter out of dye water before that water is passed into the river ?–No ; I remember an action between persons living beyond Bradford, and the arbitrators compelled the manu- facturer to put in as much pure water as he had extracted from the stream ; that is to say, to put in water from his own bore holes upon the premises. 2511. Is it the case that a great many of the manu- facturers who establish new mills either sink wells, or put down bore holes to get pure water for their purposes?—I should think the whole of them. 2512. If they fail to get pure water so, what must they do?—They must resort either to the town's water or to the beck. 2513. They have to buy the town's water?—Yes, RIVERS COMMISSION:–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 73 2514. Do you know what it is sold at per thousand gallons 2–Sixpence. 2515. It is sold by meter 2–Yes. 2516. Then it becomes a very considerable item of charge to manufacturers ?—It is not considered dear to them. For scouring purposes it causes a saving in soap. 2517. Do you know whether the trade has been driven to other places where the water is more pure ? —Not since the waterworks were begun in this dis- trict, previously to that it was. 2518. What materials were affected before that ?— The heavy woollen trade where bright water was required for scouring, that branch of the trade went to Mirfield. 2519. Do you know the Galashiels trade –Yes. 2520. Of what character is it?—Scotch tartans and woollen shawls chiefly. 2521. Has any part of the Yorkshire trade been driven away to Galashiels —I do not know. 2522. Supposing that this extension of pollution goes on, and that nothing is done to prevent it, in what sort of condition will the river be in the next 10 or 15 years —We shall be in an infinitely worse position ; I believe that the pollution of the streams from manufactures will go on in the district until it will be absolutely necessary to adopt some process for the preservation of health. 2523. Existing streams might almost be destroyed for any useful purpose?—Yes. 2524. Certainly for any purpose of washing 2– Yes ; the river is made too much a receptacle of all kinds of mischief. 2525. You see the mischief which is likely to arise if pollution is continued –Yes. When I was a boy I used to be a frequent bather in the river Calder; it is now so dirty that it is out of all question to bathe there, and it is also too polluted for fish to live in it. 2526. Have you ever seen any place where sewage is applied to land for agricultural purposes —Yes. 2527. Where?–Down below Leeds, at Mr. Leather’s the engineer’s, 2528. What sewage does he apply –The Leeds town sewage. 2529. Does he do it with any advantage —I am not aware. - - 2530. Are you aware that the town sewage of Leeds now goes into the river?—Yes; but Mr. Leather the engineer I believe had some conveyed upon his land. He has some meadow land adjacent to the river some four or five miles below Leeds. 2531. Has he given it up —I believe that he has : but in my opinion irrigation of town sewage may be carried on with very great advantage both to farmers and also to towns. 2532. If properly conducted?—Yes. 2533. In the event of regulations being devised for preventing pollution, what body do you think should carry them out; would you trust manufacturers to regulate their own affairs, or would you have some superintendence placed over the river which should be independent of the manufacturers ?–Manufac- turers show a very great disposition to abate the pollution as far as practicable, but nevertheless I think that an impartial tribune would be as well. - 2534. But you think that there is now that sort of good sense and good feeling amongst manufacturers that they would go a long way in carrying out such regulations if they were made to aid one another?— Yes. 2535. If no absurd regulations which destroyed profits of trade were established, you would expect to find that they would not resist the regulations?—Cer- tainly. Our Board of Health is composed in a great measure of manufacturers, and there is a very great disposition on their part to abate nuisances from sewage and everything else. 2536. And to aid each other to improve the con- dition of things —Yes. 2537. And I suppose that they are very anxious to have information as to what can and may be done — Yes. 2538. (Professor Way.) You have said that it is quite easy to burn the solid matter of the dyes?—Yes. 2539. It might be piled up and left to dry till it was wanted to be put in the furnace to be burnt 2– Yes; putting it into the river is a matter of careless- Iles S. 2540. The goods do not take the whole of the colour in the vats – No. 2541. What is to be done with the remainder ---. It is for you professional gentlemen to say what is to be done with it ; that is a chemical process. 2542. Do you know of anything having been tried to decolorize this refuse water 2–No. 2543. It is to the waste indigo and logwood, and so on, that the colour of the water is due —Yes. I believe that the coloured matter might be got rid of by filtration. 2544. Is it separated by filtration ?–Filtration would in a great measure separate the colour from the liquid, but would not take away the deleterious matter. 2545. If the colour could be removed from, say, the spent logwood vats, would anything very serious be left to injure the river?—Yes; just the same chemical matters would be in, acids, and alum, and so on. 2546. And some portion of tin – Whatever mineral matter was in before filtration would be in afterwards. 2547. Do you think that that refuse water could be dealt with ; could it be put upon the land at all 2–I think that it would be injurious, and would burn the land up. 2548. What is the quantity of liquid discharged from the dye vats in a manufactory of considerable size — Very large, with the process of dyeing and the process of washing. - 2549. Is it large from the dye vats themselves 2– Yes, very large. 2550. To boil it down would not be practicable ; would be far too much for you ?—Yes. 2551. You think that the water of these rivers is fast coming into a condition in which manufacturers will not be able to use it except for steam power –-I do. 2552. They will therefore be entirely dependent for their supplies upon the town supply and wells, and so on 2–Yes. 2553. Is the well water equally good for the pur- poses of the dyer and the manufacturer –No, it varies very much, according to the different minerals in the various districts. 2554. Is the water supply of the district generally softer than the well water —Yes. 2555. And more fitted for the manufacturer –– Yes. 2556. Therefore the manufacturer injures himself by injuring the water 2–Yes, to a certain extent. 2557. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you any refuse from your manufacture ?—None at all. 2558. You do not turn any refuse into the water 2 —No ; I merely double the yarn after it is spun for the purpose of making warps for woollen material. DEWSBURY. Mr. J. T. Man riott. 22 Oct. 1866. 2559. Do you corroborate the evidence which has been given by Mr. Jubb as to there being no refuse sent from his manufactory —There is nothing but what it is positively impossible to prevent ; a little dust which may fly off from his mill, that is all. 2560. You consider that his evidence is a complete answer to the question as to the manufacture of mungo and so on 2–Yes. I also corroborate his evidence with respect to no known disease having been imported into this country through rags; that point has been frequently dwelt upon. There are persons in this district who have had large experience, The witness withdrew, 17159.-2, 74 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, IDEWSBURY. Mr. M. Ridgway. 22 Oct. 1866. Mr. E. Auty, - 2561. (Chairman.) In what am a draper in Dewsbury. 2562. Are you a member of the Dewsbury town council –I am. 2563. How long have you known this district?— Close on to 30 years. 2564. Then you have seen a considerable growth of the local trade 2–A great deal. 2565. It has grown up very rapidly?–Yes. 2566. How long has Dewsbury had a town council —Four or five years. 2567. Have you noticed the condition of the river during the period that you have resided here 2–It is in a very much worse state than when I first knew it. 2568. More polluted 2–Yes, much more polluted. 2569. By the growth of manufactures?—Yes, and increased population. 2570. If it is left as it has been previously will that pollution become greater –Pollution must increase. 2571. What trade is liable to defile rivers and streams the most 2–The principal fact which I wish to speak to is one which came under my notice during last summer; the town was covering up an open beck, which is in fact the main sewer of the town and during the process of covering up the stream had to be diverted, and after a thunder shower, when the water subsided, a fact exhibited itself to me which I had never noticed so materially before ; I refer to a very heavy deposit of dye wares. I should think that there must have been hundreds of loads of dye wares which were stopped from not having a free course, evidently showing that dye wares were disposed of in a very summary manner during the storm by putting them into the stream and getting rid of them. 2572. What do you mean by dye wares?—Spent woods from the several dyes. 2573. Did you hear the evidence of the last witness as to the possibility of utilizing or consuming that mass of refuse 2–I did. 2574. If the fluid was allowed to flow off might the business are you ?–1 Mr. MATTHEW RIDGWAY (Dewsbury) examined. spent woods be consumed under the boilers ?–Yes, I heard him state that. . 2575. Do you think that to compel them to do so would be a very proper regulation to make 3–I am not prepared to say how the dye wares should be dis- posed of, but I think that under no circumstances should solid dye wares be put into the river. I think that they might be carted away and disposed of in some other way without any injury to the manufac- turers. - 2576. Do you know of any complaints having been made as to injurious effects after these dye wares have been washed down?—No. 2577. You are aware, I suppose, that water power is very much sought after, and also water for dyeing * —Yes. 2578. Have you taken any interest in the question of the water supply —I have. 2579. Do you find a pretty good demand for your water for manufacturing purposes —Not quite so much in this town as they have in the neighbourhood of Batley. We have the river to fall back upon, which they have not. 2580. Some manufacturers get a portion of their water from the river?—Yes. 2581. They also pump it from wells – Yes. 2582. (Professor Way.) Is there any means of forming a notion of the quantity of dye wares con- sumed in the district 2–I think that it might be pretty easily obtained from the parties who supply the dye wares for the district. 2583. Do you think that a large quantity of dye wares is thrown into the river, or is that merely an exceptional method of getting rid of them 2–It must be a very common way of getting rid of them, or so much would not have been there in one flood that came down a tributary. 2584. Then it would not have come down from many mills 2–We have a number of mills on those streams. In fact the water is very nearly as bad as it can be on the beck which runs through Batley and Dewsbury. The witness withdrew. Mr. Edwin AUTY (Mirfield) examined. 2585. (Chairman.) What are you?—Cashier and book-keeper to Messrs. James Howgate and Sons. 2586. What do they manufacture ?—Woollen goods. 2587. Are they manufacturers on a large scale — Yes. 2588. Where are their works situated 2–In Ravens- thorpe, Mirfield, about a mile and a half from here. 2589. How many hands are employed in that mill? —Between 300 and 400. 2590. What is the business carried on ?—One branch o it is dyeing. 2591. What is the other branch –Spinning, weav- ing, and finishing ; in fact, all the processes of woollen manufacture. 2592. Where do Messrs. Howgate obtain water from for their dyeing and manufacturing purposes?—From the river Calder. 2593. Do they obtain any from the waterworks?— No, we have not the water from the waterworks in the place. 2594. Have you pumps or wells on the premises? —We have no pumps connected with the works at all. We pump direct from the river for all purposes. 2595. Where do you send the waste dye water?— Down a sewer which we have on the canal side. 2596. And where does it find its way to ?—All the mills are connected with a main sewer on the river side, by the towing-path. 2597. Where is the outlet of the main sewer P- Just beyond the mills. 2598. In the river ?–In the river. 2599. Then all the waste water goes down that sewer –Yes. - 2600. And flows into the river ?–It does, 2601. Do you take out the spent dyewoods from the dye water before it goes into the sewer?—Yes, and all other refuse which it is possible to take out. 2602. What do you do with the spent dyewoods?— We take them into the firing-place, and use them with the coal for firing. 2603. How long have you known the river ?— Above 30 years. 2604. Is it as clean now as it was when you first knew it?—No, that is impossible. 2605. It is much dirtier –Certainly it must be. 2606. Do your people ever complain of the dirt in the water being injurious to their manufactures?—It does not affect us, because we are now the highest up, except one, of the mills in that valley. 2607. At the mill above you, do they dye –They have just commenced. 2608. And are they sending their foul water down upon you?—Certainly the foul water must come down the river; they have no other outlet. 2609. Are many new works being established in the district 2—They are all new works in that valley In OW. 2610. Then we cannot tell what amount of pollu- tion there may be if they go on building new works —It certainly will get worse if more mills are built. 2611. Does the sewage from the privies and closets of the mill go into the river, or beck, or main sewer? —We have them emptied. 2612. You have them arranged so that you can empty them and cart away the material?—Yes, with the exception of one little one. 2613. How long is it since the new mill above you RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 75 began work?—It has been about 12 months in opera- tion. 2614. Do you know whether your people objected at all to the water being taken above them —They could not object. 2615. Because I suppose the land was let or sold by the owner –Yes. 2616. Supposing that the proprietors were to sell land for 20 or 50 mills, I suppose that your firm must take the chances?—There is not room for that number In OW. 2617. At all events the owners of the present mills would have no power to interfere with any other mills being started?—Not under present circumstances. 2618. They would have to buy the land if they wished to prevent it 2–Certainly they would. 2619. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you well acquainted with the different processes carried on in your mill? —Yes. 2620. You have heard the evidence that the Sud- water from the cleansing of the wool and the cloth is generally collected throughout the district, is that so in your mill?—We have a yearly rent from Messrs. Teall, Lepaige, and Co., who take the sud-water, and it is all collected by them and none of it goes into the I’IVer. 2621. Do you collect the whole of the water which is used in cleaning the wool and the cloth *—Yes, the whole of it. 2622. None at all is passed into the river ?–None at all. 2623. What do you do with the water which comes from the dye processes?–We let it go down the common sewer belonging to all the mills. 2624. Can you suggest any means of preventing the pollution which is caused by that liquid –I should myself say that that is impossible. 2625. Have steps been taken at any time with the view of diminishing the pollutions from that source : —Formerly we used to let all the dye wares flow down the river ; we saw that it would be a nuisance ; solid matter accumulated at the end of the sewer. 2626. That is the spent wood 2–Yes. And then it was agreed by the masters of all the mills to have perforated zinc plates put into the vats and the pans, so that no wood could get down, and now nothing but water goes down. 2627. (Professor Way.) That, I suppose, would stop all the coarse particles of wood –Yes. 2628. One witness said that merely allowing these liquids to rest would get rid of a great deal of the colour? —I should think that he is not practically acquainted with the subject, or he would not have said so : many thousand gallons are disposed of in a day. The colouring properties are contained in the chemicals, and you cannot separate them except by some chemical process. 2629. If you took a vat of this dye after you had separated the gross particles of the wood by the per- forated zinc, and let it rest in a hogshead, would the upper part of the liquid be clear like water –It would be transparent but not colourless. 2630. And you do not think that any ordinary pro- cess of filtration would separate it?—No, that is impossible; and anyone who is practically acquainted with the subject will tell you the same. 2631. Do you think that the establishment of the mill above your mill will do you any harm –It will not seriously affect us. 2632. The water will not be sufficiently injured to affect you ?–No, it will make a little difference but not much. 2633. Still you would rather that the mill was not there?—Certainly. - 2634. Every additional mill on the river, or every additional amount of work done by existing mills, is an increase in the pollution of the river, objectionable not only to townspeople, but to mill owners them. selves?—Every dye house. -- 2685. I suppose that it is possible to conceive the time when the mills will be in such number and extent that you will not be able to use the water at all in the lower mills —No, I should say that that is not likely to be yet, not in our day. 2636. Not for washing purposes 2–Another witness probably will be able to speak to the river lower down than I can. - 2637. Is it not the case that the mills lower down the river will be gradually obliged to discontinue the use of the river water for all purposes except for boilers ?—I should say that it would be a long time before that would be the case along the banks of the Calder up in Mirfield; it is in the low part of Mirfield that our works are. 2638. It is a question of degree ?—Yes. 2639. (Chairman.) How far are you from the Calder —The mill goes up to its bank. 2640. You are upon the bank of the Calder 2– Yes. 2641. Then you are in a position much more advan- tageous than many of the people who are upon the small streams altogether ?—Yes. 2642. (Professor Way.) Are you not upon a tribu- tary which runs into the Calder as well—the Beck – No. 2643. (Mr. Harrison.) Are there not mills higher up the river than you, namely, at Sowerby Bridge, which have the refuse from Halifax –Yes; there are a good many dye houses up above, upon the banks of the Calder, but when the water comes down to us it is a good deal settled. 2644. Is not that against the evidence which you gave us just now, that there is no probability of sepa- rating the colour from the water by settling —You asked me whether it was possible for a quantity of dye stuff in a pan to settle by standing, and I say no, but if you dilute it the colour is less, that is my answer. 2645. (Chairman.) You think that it loses its colour by dilution and not by precipitation?—That, I believe, is it. 2646. (Professor Way.) Or possibly by meeting other kinds of chemicals in the river?—Certainly. 2647. You have said that formerly all the spent dye- woods were thrown into the river, but that you now keep out of the river all other refuse which it is pos- sible to keep out 2–Yes. 2648. What other refuse do you refer to *-In cotton dyes principally sumach, that is in a ground state. 2649. (Chairman.) Like sawdust 2–Yes. 2650. (Professor Way.) Is there any other refuse but that 2–No. 2651. What colours do you dye * – Principally blacks; what we term logwood blues and browns, those are the principal colours which are dyed along the banks of the stream. 2652. Scarlets?–No, we have not much call for scarlets. 2653. Do you ever dye scarlets?—Yes, when we want to do so, but it is very seldom. 2654. Is the water of the Calder which you get at your place fit for dyeing scarlets?—Yes. 2655. Can you dye as clear a scarlet as other people situated higher up the river?—Yes, we can dye what suits us very well. 2656. You say that blacks, and logwood blues and browns, are the principal colours?—Yes. - 2657. What materials do you use for those colours ? Tººl is the principal material for dyeing those things. - 2658. With browns as well as with blues and blacks?—Yes; logwood and the other matter which is connected with it chemically forms the colours. 2659. That is the mordant?–Yes; iron mordant is used with the cotton after the wool is dyed, 2660. Do you use tin at all 2–Yes, some solutions of tin, we are obliged to do so. 2661. And bichromate of potash 2–Yes. 2662. Is the consumption of these things in a manufactory very large 2–No, not so large as some people would imagine. DEWSBURY. - Mr. E. Auty. - 22 Oct. 1866. -- K 2 76 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. IDEWSBURY. Mr. E. Auty. 22 Oct. 1866. Mr. R. H. Jºllis. 2663. May we take it that a great deal of the material which is used, iron chromate of potash and tin, finds its way eventually into the river ?—A cer- tain portion of it does, but the material absorbs a large proportion. 2664. The tin is used as a mordant 3–Yes, it is what is called an iron mordant. 2665. You do not know that any attempt has been made to discolour the dye waters of the vats before they are thrown into the river?—No. 2666. You have no subsiding reservoirs of any sort 2 —No. 2667. Do you know of anybody who has 2–No, not in our district. 2668. (Chairman.) Do you know of any in any other district —I cannot say that I do. 2669. If you had better water do you think that your dyeing trade would be extended, that you could dye better or more delicate colours?—I do not know that ; we dye drabs, lavenders, and scarlets, and all that is required. - 2670. Have you ever heard that because the water was not pure enough, part of the manufacture of finer goods had been driven away from Yorkshire into Scotland, to Galashiels, and other places —I cannot say for that myself. 2671. You do not know of that ?–I do not. 2672. And so far as your experience goes your water is good enough for you ?—Yes. 2673. Your people would be content to remain as they are?—As for that I expect that we should be obliged to be content. 2674. I mean that you are not suffering from pollu- tion so much as some people are 3–We are not. 2675. Do you know the manufacturers who are suffering more from it than you are –I cannot say as to any further down the stream. In our district the water, considering all things, is very fair ; the river there is very broad. The witness withdrew. Mr. Robert H. ELLIS (Mayor of Dewsbury) examined. 2676. (Chairman.) You are mayor of Dewsbury —I am. 2677. Are you engaged in any business –Yes, I am a woollen cloth manufacturer, a partner in the firm of Joshua Ellis and Sons. 2678. Is your mill situated in this district —Yes, we have one mill on what is called the Batley Carr Beck, and we have another in which we dye and carry on the milling process on the river Calder. 2679. About what number of hands do you employ in each mill 2–I should say that we employ nearly 500 people with the women. - 2680. How long have the mills been established 2– The Batley Carr Mill was the second mill built in the village, it was, I think, built somewhere about the year 1820; my father built it. 2681. Is clean water an advantage for the manu- facturing processes which are carried on in your mills 2–Decidedly. 2682. How long do you recollect the river ?–Since the year 1834. 2683. I scarcely need ask you whether the water is worse now than it was then –It is getting worse every year. The fact is that the water in the Batley Carr Beck now is of no use whatever except for working the boilers, but for that process it is in my opinion almost the best water in Yorkshire; there are very few equal to it. 2684. It is so soft —Yes. 2685. And the foul matter put into it simply dis- colours, but does not injure it?—Yes, the soap and other matters which are put in benefit the water so far as the boilers are concerned. Water put into boilers has a natural tendency to encrustation. 2686. Hard water –Almost every water that I know has that tendency; I was speaking the other day to Sir Francis Crossley at his works about their water; it comes from a beck, and he showed me an incrustation upon their boilers half an inch thick. 2687. Does the water of Batley Carr Beck give an incrustation?—This beck gives no incrustation what- ever, and that makes it extremely valuable for work- ing boilers. 2688. For washing and dyeing purposes where do you get your water —Some years ago, when my father was a young man, all the goods were washed in Batley Carr Beck, in fact he used to bathe there, but that process very shortly came to an end, and ever since I should think it has been of no use whatever except for working boilers. 2689. Have you any idea how many mills there are on the beck 2–I have not counted them, and I could not tell without reflection. 2690. But there are a considerable number 2–Yes, an immense number; I should think that there would be 40 at least. - 2691. In what length of river or beck —There would be above 40 taking from the entrance of the beck into the river Calder up to Birstal Church. 2692. Do the mills rise up as far as Birkenshaw — I think that they do not take the water from the beck there because the proportions of it are so small ; I should think they have some other source. 2693. There are mills at Birstal 2–Yes. 2694. And all the way down 2–Yes. 2695. And there is another branch to the beck to the right just below Batley —Yes, there is a little branch there. 2696. Are there any mills upon it 2–Yes. - 2697. There is a place called Old Hall ?–Yes, I know four mills on it. 2698. Then I suppose we may take it that mills have been erected where they could find ground and water —Yes, almost everywhere on that beck. 2699. Railway and road accommodation have been afforded to them, and have increased the manufac- turing advantages —Yes; the difficulties of this water have been thought over many times in this town, and it was considered whether or not anything could be done to clear the beck, but the difficulties were so great that it was given up. If you took water out of the Batley Beck for manufacturing purposes, and only returned it in a clean state, you would very quickly entirely empty the beck. 2700. You mean if you could dispose of the foul water, so as not to let it flow back again into the beck 2–Yes. 2701. But if the foul water could be comparatively purified and brought back to the river again, then of course the waste of water would not be very material –The waste would not in that case be very material, but the remedy would be infinitely worse than the disease, because if you, as we did many years ago, put the soapsuds and all the dirty water into a reservoir in order to let it form a sediment, and then return the water in a clear state, the stench from the reservoir would be so great that no person could live in the district. 2702. I suppose that you utilize your soapsuds by the new process, namely, by taking the oil and grease out of them —Yes. 2703. And the effluent water after that process goes into the river ?—Yes, but still dirty. 2704. But not so dirty as when the whole soap- suds are in it —Certainly not. 2705. Do you think that in the effluent water pass- ing from Messrs. Teall’s presses, the same process of corrupting fermentation would take place to the same extent as in the original soapy and dye water –I believe that it would take place, but not to the same degree. - 2706. Hut you never tried it —No. 2707. Is there anything in logwood and the other dyewoods to corrupt and ferment —Not that I am RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 77 aware of, but it would be a difficult matter to form an opinion of, unless all the dyewoods were put into one place so as to form a sediment. 2708. You think that an intercepting sewer or intercepting conduit to collect all the refuse and take it away would be worse than the disease ?–Yes. 2709. You would very soon have the beck dry, and your mills without water 2–Yes. 2710. And, therefore, foul as the water is, you must do your best with it?—Yes. If you put any large quantity of material into a reservoir to form a sedi- ment, some stench must arise from it; there is a smell even from water if you let it remain stagnant for a great length of time, and that smell is unhealthy. A running stream is a healthy stream. Even our beck, because it runs so quickly as it does, I do not think is very unhealthy. 2711. But if made a stagnant pond of, you have no doubt about its being unhealthy —I have not a doubt that it would form a nucleus of disease. The reservoirs which were constructed formerly made a dreadful stench, and in fact were injurious to health. 2712. Then the remedy for the pollution by dye water must be something different from forming large depositing or sediment tanks —I feel satisfied of that. 2713. Do you know whether in any case the dye water has been used to irrigate grass land 2–Not the liquid matter. In our own mill some years ago we put all the dye wares and everything which we could in a heap, but we were obliged to destroy it, because we found that they were extremely injurious to land; in fact they poisoned the land. 2714. Which of the dye wares —The dye wares from our mill were logwood and fustic, and there would be some vitriol mixed with some of them, and alum, and copperas; we used almost every kind of dye ware. - 2715. Was a trial made of the effect upon land 2– Yes : an uncle of mine tried it, and a number of tenants whom I knew very well. I put it over a large extent of land here, and I gave it to the tenants, and they tried it, and they did not like it. 2716. Did it occur to you that it might be too strong, and that a dilution or mixture might have rendered it available?—Our dye wares were used just as they were. I did not interfere with them in any shape or form. I merely sent them away just as they were. If they had been diluted in something weaker I suppose that it would have been better. 2717. Have you ever used guano as a manure ?— Yes, repeatedly. - 2718. Could you kill plants by dosing them too heavily with guano —Yes. - 2719. Or with other manures —Yes, with strong ImanureS. 2720. So that it need not be taken for granted, without further experiment, that the dye wares are entirely unfitted for agricultural purposes?—No. The only case in which I found them in the least degree available was this: on a very thick clay subsoil the farmer ploughed the land deep and put a layer of this matter in the bottom, and then covered it over with soil, and he told me that he thought that it was beneficial. 2721. That was the solid material 2–Yes. 2722. Have you utilized the refuse of your dye- wares in any way for furnace purposes, by drying and burning them?—We have burnt our wood. 2723. I suppose there is no difficulty in that pro- cess —Not the slightest. There is really no difficulty with wood, and I think that wood ought to be kept out of the river, because wood is a solid element, and if used in large quantities will naturally stop up the river. There really is not the slightest necessity for the wood to go into the river. 2724. I suppose that in your dyeing processes the material which is extracted from the wood would be a very small percentage of the weight of the dye woods when brought in 2–Yes. 2725. So that if you knew that percentage and the weight of the dyewoods when brought in, you would get a very close approximation to the weight of dry refuse 2–I should think so. 2726. The refuse which was made would weigh as heavy or heavier than the dyewood originally —I should think so. On the river Calder at our dye- house we can now dye any dark colour, and we do so regularly. We dye indigo blue, and logwood blues, and blacks, and browns, out of the Calder water. I may state that there are about eight mills all in a line, and we have formed a large sewer from the top through these mills, and each mill puts all its dirty water into this sewer, so that we get the river water as clear as it is after it leaves Huddersfield. 2727. That is a private arrangement amongst your- selves?—It is. 2728. Do you think that such an arrangement might be extended to other districts —Yes, I am quite satisfied that there is an element in it which might be carried out in places where there are a great number of mills. The owners of mills might be com- pelled to put the refuse into a sewer, and to send it forward so that it would not injure the neighbours. Of course even that has an end. 2729. You have used the word “compelled.” Speaking as a manufacturer, if any obstinate manu- facturer would not combine with his neighbours for the general good, you think that there would be no hardship in a power being given to compel him to do so 2–Not the slightest. I feel satisfied that the great body of manufacturers would agree to anything reason- able which was brought out for purifying any stream if it was effective and useful. 2730. In your experience have you ever found in- dividuals inclined to be obstinate, and not to agree to reasonable propositions?—I never was in any large assembly where one or two of those people did not exist. - - 2731. Then you want a power which shall be im- perative, and the majority must have the power of ruling the minority?—Yes; I certainly should agree to such an arrangement myself, and I think it would be a very useful thing. There is a very dirty beck turned in just below our manufactories, namely, the Heckmondwike beck. I do not think that it is quite so bad as the Batley one, but still it is very bad. 2732. Are you aware whether any delicate dyeing has been driven away from the district on account of . the impurity of the water?—I do not think that it has been driven away from the district, but it has been driven into little curious places where they can get good water ; for instance, there is a little dye house put up near Batley which takes the pure water just as it comes from the hills, and that is useful for dyeing certain colours. I heard the evidence which was given by Mr. Auty upon the question of dyeing. The light dyes in the goods he manufactures are not re- quired to be so very pure and so very free from specks as in the dye-house which I have just referred to, where they dye pieces. - 2733. (Mr. Harrison.) There is no doubt that for valuable scarlets the work must be taken to a pure stream —There is no doubt of that ; but we have this advantage in this neighbourhood, that we can dye the finest colours in the world from our town's Water. 2734. (Chairman.) From your reservoir water — Yes. 2735. That is a singularly pure water —It is a singularly pure water, and as we get it at 6d. per thousand gallons, we can afford to use it. 2736. Have you any idea what the value of the river Calder would be at 6d. per thousand gallons — Of that I am not aware. 2737. It would be of very enormous value —Yes. 2738, You are content as dyers and manufacturers to pay for pure soft water 6d. per thousand gallons f —We are. 2739. You perhaps use 20,000 or 30,000 gallons or more in a week —Yes. 2740. With your knowledge of the trade of the DEWSBURY. Mr. R. H. Ellis. 22 Oct. 1866. --- K 3 78 -- Rivers commission :-MINUTEs of Evid ENCE, DEwsBURY. district, and the condition of the becks, do you think that it is necessary that some legislation should take place to compel manufacturers to correct the evils which have grown up —I do think that some sort of supervision is required, but I have not yet seen anything like a solution of the question; the difficulties are so enormous, they vary according to the locality. What would be useful in one locality would not be useful in another. For instance, if you take our Batley Carr Beck, I do not see that you could improve it in any way except by keeping the solid dye wares and sewage out. I think that that might be done, and ought to be done, legislation which would effect that object would be useful. 2741. If you take many of the becks in this dis- trict, do not you find them abused from their sources down to their junction with the main stream, and does not every owner of a mill, or of an estate, tip foundation and everything that he likes into the beck or stream —Yes. 2742. If there are mills where from 2,000 to 3,000 tons of coal are used every year, and where they never take a spadeful away, but let all the ashes go into the stream, do you think that that alone could be prevented 2–Yes, and I certainly think that it ought to be prevented. 2743. If with regard to the dye water, practicable means could be shown by which the colouring matter could be thrown down—and when I say practicable, I mean practicable in a common-sense way—do you think that there would be any hardship in requiring that every man in the district should be compelled to adopt it?—I think that there would be no hardship if it involved cnly a reasonable expense, and if the purifying process was not liable to become a nuisance to neighbours living around. 2744. It would be anything but reasonable, or prac- tical, or common sense, if it was that?—In the broad way in which you have put it, I should say that there would be no hardship in such a measure being made compulsory. - 2745. Do you think that if you were left to your- selves, as you have been since the trade has grown up, you would be likely to enforce such regulations –I think not. 2746. You would be going on from hand to mouth, and doing the best under difficulties?—Yes. 2747. If you individually as a manufacturer chose to spend 5000l. or 6000l. in experiments, and found out a means of purifying your own water at a cost to yourself of a few hundreds a year, do you not think that you would very soon drop into your old groove if no other person took up-the subject —Certainly. I think that legislation is decidedly advisable. , 2748. Supposing it proved that it would require a certain amount of cost to render this water pure, then if every manufacturer in England were put under the same conditions, do you think that a compulsory measure would be a serious injury –I do not. 2749. In that case no one would have an advantage over his neighbours, and the trade of the world would pay for the cost 2–Certainly, - 2750. If you cannot manufacture goods for one price, you must have a price for which you can manu- facture them 2–Yes. 2751. But now you cannot tax one individual with a percentage which no other person chooses to bear 2 —I think that legislation on the subject is very de- sirable, because I am satisfied that there are many things which can be improved. For instance, all solid matter ought to be kept out of rivers. Dye wares sometimes go into the rivers in such quantities that they make quite a large bed; there is no necessity for that, and it ought not to be allowed. 2752. And you are now speaking as a manufacturer producing that sort of refuse 2–Yes; but if there is no legislation on the subject, nothing will be done. And the measure must be compulsory, if it is not to be as inoperative as the legislation against the smoke nuisance; you cannot get the law which has been passed to be of any avail whatever, 2753. You want an outside authority ?–Yes. 2754. Which authority shall not be too centralizing, and shall not over-ride the local authorities in a rough shod way, but shall simply aid the local autho- rities –Yes. I go on this principle, supposing it shown that you could purify the water at a reason- able expense, it would be a great boon to have a measure for purification carried out from a central and vigorous authority. 2754a. (Mr. Harrison. Can you give us informa- tion as to the quantity of water which you use in the different processes of your manufacture in cleansing the wool, in dyeing the wool, and in cleansing your cloth 2 —I could not give you the quantity in the number of gallons, but we use water pumped through a pipe of about six inches diameter, which is always running when the engine works. 2755. (Chairman.) For what purpose do you use that water —For cleansing. 2756. For how many hours a day do you use it – We are using it all day. 2757. A pipe like that would give you about 150,000 gallons in 10 hours?—A little runs over the cistern occasionally, but not generally. 2758. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you state what quantity of wool it cleanses and dyes?—About 100 packs a week of wool and shoddy together. 2759. How many pounds are there to a pack — 240. 2760. This morning Mr. Jubb stated that he did not use any water at all in the manufacture of shoddy, but that it was cleaned merely by the process of blowing and depuration ?–That is so in his process, but he is merely a manufacturer of shoddy. 2761. After he has made the shoddy does the cloth manufacturer find that it wants washing 2—We do not wash a great quantity of shoddy which we use until it goes out in a woven state, but we sometimes dye shoddies, and then they want washing. - 2762. All the refuse which comes from the cleaning, preparatory to dyeing, goes away in soap suds?— Yes. - 2763. What quantity of that water do you think would be daily used in the dyeing process?–In the dyeing, and in the washing of the pieces after dyeing, we use a very large proportion of water, because, having a very large supply from the river Calder close at hand, we use it rather liberally; the more water we have the better cleansed is the material. H should say that we use fully three-fourths of the water for the dyeing and washing the wool and pieces after dyeing. 2764. You have said, as I understood you, that manufacturers of Dewsbury have constructed a cul- vert?—Not the manufacturers of Dewsbury. I was alluding to the mill of ours which is on the river Calder in a suburb of Dewsbury. A culvert has been constructed by eight manufacturers. 2765. And the effect of that is, to give as good water to the mills at the lower end of the culvert as to those at the upper end?—Yes. 2766. Over what length of the river is that ?—I should think that those eight mills occupy about a quarter of a mile. 2767. (Chairman.) Not more ?–It is a difficult point to answer, but I should say not more than a quarter of a mile. 2768. (Mr. Harrison.) What sized culvert is it 2 —It is rather better than three. feet deep, and I believe that it is 18 inches wide. - 2769. What is its shape –It is egg shaped. 2770. To what height is it filled?—It varies ac- cording to the quantity of manufacturing going on ; but taking a fair average, I should say that it is about half filled. - 2771. What was the cost of that culvert –It cost a guinea a yard. - 2772. And it was a quarter of a mile long 2– Yes. - 2773. (Chairman.) Altogether 400ſ, or 500l. 2– Yes. itly Eks CoMMAssion :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 79 2774. (Mr. Harrison.) We have had it stated in evidence, that during the summer time the dredgers upon the Aire and Calder have been chiefly employed in the different branches of the canal dredging sedi- ment which has settled from the water itself. After floods they are chiefly employed in the river dredging away shoals —Yes. 2775. Have you remarked whether the river purifies itself in its course 2–No doubt it rapidly improves, but it depends upon the character of the materials put in. There is a manufactory which has been re- cently established for the manufacture of oil out of the soapsuds; there is something which they use in that process (they turned it into the river until the culvert of which I have spoken was made) which seemed to be as bad when it got to our mill as when it was first put in, and if it touched anything it soiled it at once. We are not troubled with it now. As a rule, the stuff clears very quickly in the open river. 2776. Does not that seem to point to the pollution being a matter which might be extracted by some means or other without much trouble 2–I do not know that I am able to give an opinion upon the subject, but so far as I know, I should say that the extraction of the liquid portion of the colouring would be difficult. 2777. (Chairman.) That is a matter for a chemist to answer —Entirely ; about that I know nothing. 2778. (Mr. Harrison.) The dye matter gives a colour to the water just like wine —Exactly. 2779. Does not the fact which you have mentioned, of the water gradually becoming purer, show that there is a considerable quantity of matter in suspen- sion which settles to the bottom as it goes along — Yes; what I should call the solid portions of the liquid matter go gradually but quickly to the bottom ; but besides that, although there seems to be a large stream of objectionable liquid going in, yet the im- mense body of the river appears to take it away and to dilute it. 2780. According to the evidence which we have had, the manufactures are increasing so rapidly that in the course of a few years there would be a possibi- lity of the Calder being made as bad as you have stated the water to be at Batley —Yes, and the river Aire at Leeds I believe is so. 2781. (Chairman.) With regard to your own muni- cipal government, have you at all considered the question of utilizing your sewage 2–No, we have not had a debate upon it. There has been a plan talked of occasionally, whether it will be possible to form a large drain down the side of the river Calder, and to put the sewage on to some land there, but it has never come before us in any practical shape. 2782. You have a large river, and the nuisance has not gone to such an extent amongst your other pollu- tions, as to call for special consideration ?—That is the case. 2783. But when you are considering specially how you are to prevent river pollutions, you will find that that particular branch must come in for its share of notice 2–No doubt. 2784. Have you seen any of the places where sewage is being applied to land for agricultural pur- poses —No. 2785. You have, perhaps, read of some of them — I have met with a large farmer and spent an evening with him, who is farming land at one of those places near London. 2786. At Croydon –Somewhere in that district; he told me that he had a very liberal allowance given for the damage done to him by the sewage coming there, and he said that it was a very lucky thing that it did come, because it improved his land to such an enormous degree, that he never before grew such crops in his life. 2787. Is there any agricultural land immediately below Dewsbury, upon which sewage could be laid : —I should say that there is not, the land is so thickly populated. 2788. It would have to be pumped inland –Yes : the land on the river Calder is regarded by the owners of it as good building land. 2789. It is always liable to become building land 2 —Yes. 2790. And it would bear a high price if it had to be treated for any purpose 2–It would. 2791. Therefore, you must go away from the river frontages –Yes. 2792. (Mr. Harrison.) The land being so valuable, and likely to become so much more valuable, would be able to bear the expense of removing sewage from it by pumping?—It would bear it, I daresay, if the work was not too expensive. 2793. If the margin of the river is considered as building land, the nuisance would be intense of having the Calder turned into a public sewer —It would. That land would be able to bear the expense to which you refer so soon as it was built upon, but not before. 2794. (Professor Way.) You have said that you think that if reservoirs were made subsiding tanks, on any scale for taking the waste waters of the mills, they would be apt to smell badly P-Yes. 2795. That I suppose would be from the accumula- tion which would arise during rest, and from fermenta- tion setting up 2–Yes. 2796. But supposing the waste dye liquids could be dealt with as they were made by artificial filtration of any sort, or by chemical means, so that the objection- able matters were not accumulated in that way, I presume that it would not follow that there would be any such nuisance –If you did not accumulate them of course that would be so, but the process through which you put them would naturally produce some refuse ; and the question is, what would you do with that refuse 2 If you put the refuse in any reservoir and let it remain there, I believe that the stench would be worse, and would be more injurious than the pollution of the river would be. 2797. You refer to collecting the waters and allow- ing them to stand in large quantities on the premises * —Yes. 2798. But as you have not contemplated any chemical means of dealing with this refuse, you are not able to give an opinion whether it could not be prevented by chemical means from becoming a nuisance –I am not, 2799. You have said that the soap refuse is the most likely to produce objectionable smells and nuisance?— Perhaps the soap would be a little the worst, but I do not think that there would be very much difference between that and other refuse. 2800. Do you think that the logwood would pro- duce equally bad smells?—I think that all the dye wares together, put into one reservoir, would make a stench almost equal to soap, perhaps not quite so bad. 2801. Do you mean including soap?—I am now taking it on your basis of the soap being separate. 2802. Is there anything in the dye stuffs used which should produce an objectionable smell when wetted with water, logwood for instance –Perhaps logwood alone would not; but if you took all the various dye wares which are used, and put them all into one reser- voir, I think that they would smell. 2803. Do you not think that you are confusing the fact that you very often put in the soap liquids which contain urine and dung 2–I am not able to give an opinion upon that point, there are, I have no doubt, dyers who could tell you. 2804, You have described to us the sort of pipe through which the water comes for your works on the Calder 2–Yes. 2805. You said that as you had plenty of water you used it abundantly —Yes. 2806. Supposing that it were an object to all the dyers, and all persons who use, and to a certain extent pollute the water of the river, that that pollu- tion should cease, do you not think that the quantity of water used could be considerably economised; for instance, if after having used it, it had to undergo DEWSBURY. Mr. R. H. Ellis. - 22 Oct. 1866. K 4 80 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. DEWSBURY. Mr. R. H. Ellis. 22 Oct. 1866. Mr. J. Bates, - any subsequent treatment 2–I have no doubt that we ourselves could economise it a little. 2807. Without any serious inconvenience –There is only this to be said, that if you economise water in cleansing any kind of wool or cloth you do not do the work so well, because the more water you have, in reason, the cleaner you get your material. 2808. May it not be that because you generally have plenty of water, you therefore use it?—Before we had a mill upon the Calder we could never get our pieces clean. 2809. You no doubt are aware that in alkali works and other cases of that sort where it is a necessary thing to economise water, so that there shall not be much to evaporate afterwards, means are taken so that the material passes through liquids of different strength 2–I am not capable of giving any evidence upon that point. I am not practically acquainted with dyeing. 2810. Is the grease taken from your works?— Yes. 2811. Do they take the cake away —They take everything. 2812. Do you know what that is used for 2–I do not. They pay so much. 2813. You probably have some land of your own 2 —Yes. 2814. Have you ever tried the cake on the land 2– Never. 2815. I was informed this morning that the cake, after the oil is expressed, is very largely used for manure in this district, and that it is a very great advantage –I never heard that, I should say that it would be very good manure, judging from what it comes from, namely, soap. 2816. You told the Chairman that your experience pointed to the fact that the refuse dyewoods were injurious to land?—Yes. 2817. Do you think that that would be from any- thing in the woods themselves, or from any of the materials, such as iron, tin, and so on, which might be washed from them —I do not suppose that dye wares can ever be made useful as manure; they may be, but I should think not. The acids, vitriol, and so on, are very injurious. 2818. If the woods themselves with portions of the liquid hanging to them are objectionable, the liquid itself would be still worse —I should say so. 2819. Has it been tried?—Not in my experience. 2820. If that liquid were run into the common sewer, do you think that the sewage would be appli- cable to land 2–I should say that it would, but I do not know. The dye water would form a small portion of the whole. 2821. (Mr. Harrison.) Would it be possible to obtain from the owners of the eight mills, which have formed this sewer, the quantity of wool which they dye and the quantity of water daily passing at the end of the culvert —Yes, I daresay, that they would have no objection to give that information, they could tell the quantity from the number of machines. Some of those mills are joint stock mills, there were two such, but I believe that one has been bought by the owner of a private mill, and now I think there is only one joint stock mill. The sewer is visible at the outfall. 2822. (Chairman.) And we could gauge it 2–Yes, but it varies very materially. 2823. According as you may be working the vats at one time more than another?—Yes; in the evening all the pans are emptied, and then it is nearly full; I believe that it would be a very difficult thing to ascertain the average volume of effluent water. Mr. John BATEs (Dewsbury) examined. 2824. (Chairman.) What business do you carry on 2–I am a carpet manufacturer. 2825. Dyeing is involved in that manufacture ?— Yes. 2826. How long have you carried on business in this district 2–19 years. 2827. What number of hands do you employ at your works 2–About 70 weavers I think. I do not know the number engaged in the dyeing and spinning. 2828. For what portions of the process do you use water —For dyeing and scouring. 2829. Have you any idea of the volume of water which you use in a day ?–I never calculated the amount, but we have a 9-inch pump pumping the whole of the day, making about 30 strokes to a minute with a 2 feet stroke. 2830. By “the day” how many hours do you mean out of the 24 2–10 hours a day. 2831. Where are your works situated –In Dews- bury on the banks of the river Calder. 2832. Do you use the water from the river Calder, or from any other sources —From the river alone. 2833. You have no wells?—No. 2834. And you do not use the town's water —No. 2835. Is it sufficiently clean at all times of the year for your purposes —Of late we have had cause to think not, but we have thus far made it answer. 2836. Have you any filter beds —No. 2837. Or any settling tanks —Yes, we have a settling tank. 2838. What area does it cover ?—It is about 60 yards in length, by 15 in breadth, and with a depth of 10 to 12 feet. 2839. It is wholly artificial –Yes. 2840. How often do you find it necessary to cleanse the sediment out of it —We have only cleansed it twice in the 19 years that I have been in the place. 2841. How do you cleanse it out 2–By putting a drain from the tank to the river. 2842. And washing it out 2–Yes. - 2843. Did the people on the river below you find no fault with you for doing that ?—A little, 2844. But you went through with it?—It was done before they found fault. 2845. From that have you reason to anticipate that if you repeated it they would perhaps be quicker the next time –Perhaps they might be, but they do not know exactly where to put the blame. 2846. What depth of sediment had accumulated ?. —The sediment was about 3 to 4 feet deep the last time that it was cleansed out. - 2847. What did it consist of 7–Of black pulpy matter, apparently without any very solid particles about it. 2848. Did it smell offensively 2–No, there was no smell about it that I could detect. 2849. Do you know what the sediment came from, was it a sediment from the dye vats –It could only come from the water pumped from the river, but I should suppose that it would be not only from the dye- works, but from the scouring processes through which the water had been. 2850. Would it have soap in it —No doubt it would have soap and oil, and the colour of the liquid from the dye vats. - 2851. Would it have the spent logwood, and other sorts of woods —Not the wood itself, but no doubt it would have the colour from the woods. 2852. (Mr. Harrison.) Was this a reservoir into which you took the water from the river for the pur- pose of allowing the stuff to settle, so that you might use that water in your mill –Yes, it is pumped by the engine from the river into a tank 20 feet above the river, and it is there allowed to settle, and it is used for scouring and cleansing purposes afterwards. 2853. It is not the water from your mill?—It is not. 2854. (Chairman.) Then any dirt which comes into that tank has come from the river and not from your works —Just so ; we take it above the point where our water is sent in. 2855. If it has come from works at all, it has come from somebody else's works —From works above. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 81 2856. From your experience do you think that the river is becoming more impure than it was when you first knew it 2–Yes, considerably so. - 2857. This refuse has necessarily accumulated faster –The accumulation is not seriously greater. My impression is that the colouring matter which is the greatest obstacle deposits very little. - 2858. And that remains in the water —Yes, it is suspended. - 2859. And you are obliged to put up with it for your own washing 2–Yes. 2860. Have you tried any chemical process of getting that colouring matter out. I mean by lime, or by any other means ?–No, but when the water has got into the dye vessel for certain purposes, say for instance a scarlet or a crimson dye, or any bright colour, of course the colouring matter has to be pre- cipitated by solutions of tin, or other matters which we know will answer the purpose. 2861. In order to take the colouring matter out of the water before you put your dye matter in 2–Yes; we use mordants, and in the last few years we have found that it requires perhaps half as much more of these mordants as it would have dome 12 years ago. 2862. Then whatever cost it may be, it is an addi- tional cost upon your manufactures —Yes. 2863. And if you could get the water purified equally well by some other process, at no great cost to your- self, you would not be injured —If the water could be rendered as pure as it was when we commenced the manufacture, we certainly should not be losers by pay- ing something for that improvement. 2864. Something equivalent to what you are now paying —Yes; say on the production of one of these bright colours at least one-third of its cost. 2865. Is it within your knowledge that the dyeing of bright colours has been driven away from any part of the district on account of the difficulty in getting water of sufficiently pure quality ?—I cannot say that it is within my knowledge, as we have never allowed it to go from us, and I cannot speak for other people. 2866. If you had the choice between having at an additional expense a water sufficiently good for your purpose without treatment, such as you now use, and having foul water for nothing, which you have to treat before using it, which would you prefer, the naturally bright water or the artificially made water —The naturally bright water. - 2867. Is there any disadvantage in using a chemical ingredient; does it at all deteriorate the water? Is the water so treated inferior to a naturally bright water, or is it equally good —To some extent it deteriorates the handling of the goods and makes them more hard. 2868. It produces an effect which you would rather be without 3–Yes. 2869. Though it answers the purpose as regards clarifying the water it is not for your purposes so good as a naturally bright water —Certainly not. 2870. (Professor Way.) You use more mordant than you formerly used ?–Yes; the water being so much deteriorated we first put in a small quantity of mordant, which has the effect of precipitating these matters which float on the top as a sort of scum. 2871. (Chairman.) You use it as you would use the lime process, namely, to throw down a precipitate * —Yes. 2872. Do you burn the spent dyewood —Yes, we mix it with the coal; we throw it amongst the coal. 2873. Did you hear the mayor examined as to the impossibility of discharging the colouring matter from the dye refuse by any process before it is passed into the rivers or streams ?—Yes; I do not know of any process by which we could manage it. 2874. Have you heard of any attempts being made to precipitate the colouring matter 7–No. 2875. Did you ever know of dye water being put on land for irrigation purposes —No. 2876. Do you think it would kill grass if used for irrigation ?—Unless it was very much diluted I have no doubt it would. I should not say that the alkalis contained in it are really injurious to the land, if they were diluted sufficiently. We know from artificial manures that nitrates and ammoniates are largely used, and in this dye water we have large quantities of those. Ammonia, for instance, is very useful on land, and we use an immense quantity of it, and of the various nitrates as well; but it is possible that they may be injurious in the concentrated state in which we send them out for the land. 2877. I suppose if ordinary urine were put on grass land it would have a very injurious effect 2–I suppose SO. 2878. It has been intimated that in this district actions have been brought against dyers, and that they have by some processes of their own on their own property got rid of the evil?—Do you mean as to discharging the colouring matter of the water ? 2879. I mean by pumping the refuse up and using it for irrigation of land, and letting the effluent waters flow down into the stream?—I know of no process by which the colouring matter can be extracted from the dye water. 2880. (Professor Way.) And the water be pre- served at the same time —No ; I know that by settling for a month it would not lose its colour. 2881. (Chairman.) When passed into a running stream have you noticed that it is rapidly dissipated or apparently got rid of in the body of water —By dilution, nothing more ; nothing is deposited I believe. 2882. Have you, in your own experience, ascer- tained whether oxygen has the power of bleaching colouring material out of water as well as of diluting it —Oxygen has rather a tendency to deepen some colours. I do not say it is so in all, but I know it is so in some, and that being so I should not think that when we send out a mixture of all colours oxygen would bleach out the colouring matter. 2883. (Professor Way.) You have just told us that you find these objectionable colours in taking the water from the river into your reservoirs, therefore they are not all got rid of?—No, they are only diluted. 2884. (Chairman.) What colours are heightened by oxygen —Blues, for instance, which are the most important colours, perhaps, in this district. 2885. Indigo blues —Not only those, but the prus- siate blues, dyed with the prussiate of potash. 2886. Have you not tried any chemical means for discharging the colour?—No. 2887. Have you not tried what filtration through vegetable soil would do —No. 2888. Have you ever seen sewage put upon land going on of a dark coffee colour?—No, I know nothing of farming practically. 2889. Do you think that the refuse from tan pits and tanning, if put upon land and passed through the surface, would come out bright —I cannot give an opinion upon that matter. Sulphuric acid is very much used in dyeing, and I do not know any means of filtration that would take that from the water when mixed with it, it is really a chemical combination and filtration appears to have no effect upon it. 2890. Have you any fear of over legislation in regard to this matter –No. 2891. Do you think it is necessary that there should be any legislation to prevent you and others polluting the rivers, or would you rather be left alone –I may say that I have no fear of any legis- lation affecting manufactures injuriously. 2892. You think that the manufacturers would find ways and means to look after themselves 2–Yes. 2893. (Professor Way.) Is there any prospect of your getting out of the present condition of things without external pressure of some kind —Certainly not. 2894. You would rather that external pressure, if moderate and reasonable, should be used than that things should continue as they are –I believe that it is within the reach of science to devise ineans to remedy the present state of things. I have no objec- tions personally to its being tried. 2895. (Chairman.) If you had a larger tank than L 17159.-2, DEWSBURY. Mr. J. Bates. 22 Oct. 1866. 82 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. DEWSBURY. Mr. J. Bates. 22 Oct. 1866. - Mr. A. Tweedale. Mr. C. Oldroyd. Mr. W. P. Maddisom. your present reservoir, and took a longer time, you would get the water into better condition ? — No doubt. 2896. (Mr. Harrison.) What manufactures are carried on now besides the woollen manufacture ?—I do not know of anything causing river pollution, except the woollen manufacture in its various branches. 2897. Have you no chemical works of any kind? —They are very small in Dewsbury. 2898. (Chairman.) Are you troubled at all by ashes getting into your tanks —No. 2899. Do you know whether ashes, foundation materials, and that kind of dirt come down the river? -I believe that such things are thrown into the stream, and in cases of flood we occasionally have the pump blocked with refuse a little, but not otherwise. The witness withdrew. Mr. Alderman Tweed ALE (of Dewsbury) examined. 2900. (Chairman.) How long have you known Dewsbury —70 years; all my lifetime. 2901. Are you engaged in manufactures 2–No. 2902. Have you ever been 2–Not directly. 2903. You were formerly connected with the local board, I believe 2–Yes. 2904. Have you had occasion to observe the con- dition of the rivers and streams in Yorkshire 2–Yes. 2905. There has been, I suppose, an enormous growth of trade in the last quarter of a century?— Yes. 2906. From that growth of trade I assume that the rivers have received a great amount of additional pollution ?—No doubt. 2907. As the trade extends, that pollution, Isuppose, will extend, if something is not done –I presume SO, - 2908. Do you know the condition of any of the becks in the vicinity of Dewsbury —Yes; two or three immediately around. 2909. Are they very foul ?—Yes, as foul as they can be. 2910. Were they comparatively pure when you first knew them —Yes, and I have seen fish in them. 2911. I suppose there has been a very rapid growth of population within your recollection ?—Yes. 2912. Dewsbury itself has grown from a village to a town —Yes, into a borough now. 2913. Have you considered whether legislation may be necessary to prevent the continued and increasing pollution of the streams in the district 2—I think without it the streams will never cease to be polluted. 2914. If some external authority or some additional control is not set up, do you believe that the evil will go on increasing 2—That is my opinion. 2915. If the present state of the river is an injury to manufactures, there will be a greater injury when the pollution has increased to a greater extent?— Certainly. 2916. (Mr. Harrison.) What was the size of the town in 1800, or thereabouts?—I cannot give you the number of the population, but it was very small indeed. 2917. Was the Calder, when you first recollect it, a bright and clear river?—Yes. I can give you one instance which will enable you to judge for yourselves. I have seen a gentleman wade into the stream with his rod and line, and his basket on his back, and stop there casting his line for hours, and occasionally dropping a fish into his basket; that is as long ago as I can recollect. 2918. When did the pollution of the rivers com- mence to a serious extent —I should think seriously, perhaps, in the last 20 years. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at half-past 10 o'clock. Dewsbury, Tuesday, 23rd October 1866, PRESENT: ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THoRNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Professor John THOMAS WAY. Mr. CHARLEs OLDRoy D (of Dewsbury) examined. 2919. (Chairman.) You are clerk to the local board of Thornhill 2–Yes. 2920. How far is that from Dewsbury —From two to three miles. 2921. Is Thornhill a township —Yes, and it con- tains 2,564 acres 1 rood and 26 perches. 2922. What is the rateable value of the township 2 —I do not remember, but I will furnish you with that. 2923. How long have you been placed under the Local Government Act 7–Three years. 2924. It appears that at the last census the popu- lation was 1,559?—The population of the township was 3,479 at the last census. 2925. Have you carried out any works at Thorn- hill?—We have tried to carry out some small works in the township but have not been successful in con- sequence of the opposition of one of the landowners. I mean waterworks; we have not attempted to carry out any system of sewerage. 2926. Do you contemplate sewering the township 2 —Not at present. 2927. For what purpose did you adopt the Local Government Act —To control the manner in which buildings were erected, and to enable us to deal better with nuisances. 2928. Are there many mills in your township 2– There are four or five mills which have been recently erected. 2929. Is there any probability that they will ex- tend ?–Yes, they will extend rapidly, especially in that part belonging to Captain Savile. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM Port ER MADDIsoN of Thornhill, near Dewsbury, examined. 2930. (Chairman.) The river Calder is the boun- dary of your township for a certain distance?—It is, for 5 miles and 5 furlongs. 2931. The Calder and Hebble navigation extends over what distance –Over a distance of 4 miles and 5 furlongs. 2932. Is the township on both sides of the river, or only on one side –Only on one side. 2933. And on only one side of the navigation ?— We have land on both sides of the navigation. 2934. Is there any water supply in your township 2 --None, except from casual springs. Rivers CoMMIssion:-MINUTEs of EVIDENCE, 2935. There is no proper supply of water?--There is no proper supply. 2936. Do any of the inhabitants resort to the river or to the canal for water –A great number of the inhabitants in that part called Thornhill Lees do resort to the canal for water for all domestic purposes. 2937. Is that water pure ?–It is very impure. 2938. From what cause ?—We suppose from the deleterious nature of the refuse which is thrown in from mills and manufactories above us; dyeworks and such like. 2939. Do you ever see dead animals floating in it * —Frequently. 2940. In the canal?—Yes. 2941. And in the river also 2–Yes. 2942. Do you consider that that water is fit for domestic purposes?—I think it is very unfit indeed. 2943. Has your attention been turned to the ques- tion of obtaining a better supply –Yes; from the first formation of the board, I, as well as all the mem- bers of the board, have been quite alive to the fact that the use of this impure water was very likely to breed fevers and ill-health of all descriptions, and it has been our very great desire to remove the cause by placing within the reach of the inhabitants some other proper source of water supply. 2944. What source have you been looking to ?— The first source that we thought of was water pumped from one of the mines belonging to Captain Ingham. 2945. Would mine water be an advisable source of supply –We placed a quantity of that water in the hands of Mr. Huggon of Leeds, and obtained an analysis, a copy of which I will hand in. The same was handed in as follows: Copy of an ANALysis of WATER discharged from Hos- TINGLY Pit, by Mr. Huggon, of Leeds, in 1865. “The water is quite turbid, but on standing or by filtra- tion it becomes bright and colourless. One gallon of the bright water contains nearly 42 grains of solid matter, which is composed of the following substances: Carbonate of soda - - 1673 Do. lime - – 225 Chloride of sodium (salt) - 11:55 Sulphate of soda - – 8:45 Silica and alumina - - 2.82 Grains per gallon - – 41.80 This is a soft and alkaline water, and is suitable for general domestic use; it will not be quite so pleasant for drinking as the hard water, but still better suited for gene- ral domestic purposes (except for brewing), contains nothing injurious, and is a water which I can recommend for use.” We came to the resolution that it was too soft for general domestic use. I had a quantity of it taken into my own house, and gave it a fair trial. I found, however, that the effect in boiling meat was to cause the meat to become reddish, as though it had been salted, and also in using it for making tea, it made the liquid almost a perfect black. It is soft, and people like it very much for washing clothes; they find it exceedingly good, and would rather have it than rain water. 2946. Do manufacturers use it for their purposes? —No. 2947. Do you know why that is?—It is delivered at the mine and runs into the goit of a flour mill, and then passes over the weir, and down to the canal. 2948. For what length of time do you think that coal-pit will last, and the pumping continue – The lease has about 13 or 14 years to run, but there is no doubt that it is a continuous supply of water, inasmuch as it has continued with scarcely any per- ceptible difference for the last 18 or 20 years. 2949. (Mr. Harrison.) What quantity of water is delivered —About 1,750,000 gallons every 24 hours from the two mines. 2950. (Professor Way.) Of the water you have spoken of 2–No, about 870,000 gallons of this parti- cular water comes. 2951. Is it used at all for washing wool —No, it has never been used in any manufacturing process of any kind. The idea that it would be good for manu- facturing purposes struck me long ago. I have always considered it a most valuable water indeed for all manufacturing purposes. 2952. I suppose the washerwomen in using it would wash in a stream of it 2–No, they have to send a water barrel for it, and pay a little for it, just as an acknowledgment, and the cost of leading is quite sufficient to deter them from wasting it. 2953. If they used a large quantity of it there would be the advantage of a large quantity of alkali ? —Yes. In the second colliery at first when we sunk a pit we found the water equally as good for steam purposes and for cleanliness in boilers. When a boiler was tapped the water issuing from it would create quite a foam as though soap had been boiled in it. I have seen the foam standing 18 inches high in the ashpit. 2954. Have you ever made an application to the combined boards of Dewsbury, Batley, and Heck- mondwicke to supply you with water —We have, but they declined at that time. 2955–6. Do you think they would continue to decline taking you as customers ?–I scarcely think so, inas- much as I hear they have undertaken to supply a neighbouring district. (Mr. Oldroyd.) That is the Dewsbury board alone. (The witness.) Just so. 2957. (Chairman.) Has any scheme been brought forward for a separate water supply of your own – Yes; one was brought forward last year, and it com" manded universal favour in the township itself amongst the inhabitants; it would have been carried into effect, and I have no doubt it would have been a very successful affair, had it not met with the opposition of one of the neighbouring proprietors. 2958. Was that Captain Ingham —No ; he pro- posed to do the work himself, and charge 6d. per 1,000 gallons for water delivered into the company’s mains; the neighbouring proprietor was Mr. Holt, a solicitor, representing Wallis's trustees. 2959. Would 150 or 200 acres have been a suffi- cient area of gathering ground?—Yes; for the inhabi- tants that we have or are likely to have for many years, and at all events for 10 or 15 years, we thought it would have lasted. 2960. Are there any springs in that ground 2– Yes, there are some. 2961. Then you would not be dependent altogether on the water gathered 2–No. 2962. Is there any likelihood of your again taking up the scheme you have mentioned if the difficulties that stood in your way are removed 2–We must resort to some scheme or other for we are in that position that we cannot go on as we are ; we must adopt either that scheme or some other. I am not sure whether the waterworks company can supply us or not. 2963. Have you made a second application to the Dewsbury town council for a supply from their mains 2 – Yes, and that is under consideration, I believe. 2964. What is your idea as to the power of local boards to prevent the pollution of rivers ?–I think certainly that all local boards, surveyors, and inspec- tors of nuisances should have the same power as to the pollution of rivers or water passing through their jurisdiction as they are now invested with respect to smoke. - 2965. If they used such powers no better than the powers for the prevention of smoke they would not be of much avail?—No ; I do not think they would at present. 2966. At all events their powers, if applied to pre- vent river pollution, would be confined to an area defined for the action of your board?—Just so. 2967. But pollution, I assume, goes on far beyond that area, and where there may not be a board 2– That is true. -- - - 2968. What form of jurisdiction would you desire and that the impure water pumped from such mines may seriously injure the water of the surf-co 2–In IDEWSBURY. Mr. W. P. Maddison. 23 Oct. 1866. Ł 2 84 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF Evrpºnop. DEWSBURY. Mr. W. P. Maddison. 23 Oct. 1866. to see exercised there 2–I should imagine that other places would be able to deal with the matter in the same way. - 2969. Do you think that an independent local Conservancy formed of members from the several local Boards, for the prevention of pollution, would not be a better working body ?—Yes; I do not doubt that it would be. - 2970. Would it be necessary to set up any superin- tending authority to see that that board did its duty to all parties —Do you mean to act under the instructions of the board 2 2971. You have laws to compel the proper working of mines and proper ventilation, and you have an inspector to see that the clauses of the acts are enforced 2–I think it essential that such officers should be appointed. 2972. Does the inspector of mines occasionally visit you?—Yes, occasionally. 2973. How frequently have you seen the inspector of mines upon your premises —Perhaps a dozen times since I knew the place 10 years ago; he may come every week if he chooses. 2974. You think you are carrying on your mines as well as you can —Yes; and he has been kind enough to tell me so. 2975. Do you think that the fact that he may come at any time has any influence in keeping you up to your work?—It has not the slightest weight with me as manager of the colliery. 2976. Is that true of all other colliery proprietors ? —No ; I do not think it is. 2977. You individually would give as much atten- tion as you give now *—Yes. - - - 2978. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you think that visita- tions from the inspectors have a beneficial effect on the management of dangerous mines — I think they have. 2979. (Chairman.) Does the inspector of mines, when he comes, give you information as to new appli- cations, or new modes of ventilation, which may have been adopted, and found successful at other places — No ; he does not give us any information unless he finds that there is something objectionable in the ven- tilation of the mine he is then viewing. 2980. When he views your mine does he go through the workings —Yes; a portion of them. 2981. He goes down the pit –Yes. 2982. And sees what form of ventilation is carried on 2–Yes. 2983. If there was an inspector to prevent the pol- lution of rivers, it would be his duty to see that the different parties were carrying out the regulations laid down 2–Yes; I think so. 2984. What power has a mine inspector of compel- ling attention to his requests —He suggests that such an alteration is needful, and if the managers object to it he can refer it to arbitration, and so enforce the award, not otherwise. 2985. Then I suppose in the case of the pollution of rivers, if the inspector found that the local board or persons in the district, were not carrying out the regulation in the way that he knew it should be carried out, you would not wish to give him absolute authority to enforce anything, but, as in the case of mines, you would empower him to refer the matter to arbitration ?—The two things are rather different, in- asmuch as the manager of a colliery has a great number of people whose lives are in his care. In the case of the pollution of rivers lives are not so con- cerned, at least not so directly. 2986. You think that the two cases differ so essentially that the same form of legislation would not be applicable in both cases —Yes. 2987. You think that some special measure should be devised for the pollution of rivers ?—Yes. 2988. (Mr. Harrison.) You would have a more summary mode of proceeding in the one case than in the other ?—Yes. 2989. Are there collieries in the basin of the Batley Beck —Yes; several small collieries. 2990. Do they pump much water into the river ?_ One does at Batley, but to what extent I cannot say. 2991. If they pumped any water, it would probably be of a similar character to that in your collieries 2– I do not know that. 2992. What are the names of the seams of coal you are Pºocuring –We are working three seams of coal, and the nearest to the surface is the Flocton bed ; the second is what is called Old Hards, and the third is the Cromwell or the New Hards; there are about 40 yards between. The surface of each bed of coal Varies as it crops out; in one case it is 120 yards below the surface of the soil. 2993. Have you workable beds below those three ? -Yes; some such are being worked. In other places We have not gone down to them yet. The time will come probably when we shall incur an additional COSt. 2994. At what depth would the deepest mine lie that you could reach, in furlongs or yards 2—250 yards, it would be necessary to go now. If a seam was lying deeper we should find no difficulty in going down to it. 2995. Are the mines here very wet 2—They are well watered, inasmuch as we have water coming from the throws we cut through, but the mine itself, the coal, is not very wet. 2996. The intervening stratification is very wet 2 —Yes. 2997. That, I suppose, you tub out 2–Yes, if needful. 2998. So as not to lift it to the surface 3–Yes ; that is the case with the Combs Pit, when we sunk the Combs Colliery we passed through the old work- ings of the Flocton bed, which were lying full of water, and that water we tubbed back. 2999. The tubing is a casing of cast-iron 2–Yes; it consists of segments put together of cast-iron. 3000. How do you make the joints –Simply with a piece of deal without any knots in it, half-an-inch thick, placed in between each joint at first; then we wedge it up at the back, and when we have got it all put in then we, put in small wedges, 4 inches long, into the edge of this sheeting, and drive them up until we cannot put another wedge in. 3001. For the joints of the plates you use yellow pine free from knots dried and dressed to prevent the swelling of the timber when in the joint 2–Not alto- gether; we use perfectly dry wood, which becomes still tighter when saturated with water. 3002. What length of time will such a joint last 2– Longer than a metal joint, if it is an up-cast shaft; I should say 20 years. 3003. Do any of those mines produce deleterious or ochrey water –It is so at the old colliery, part of the water runs down and mixes with the water in the new pit at Combs—that has a large portion of iron in it. 3004. If such water was sent to manufacturers or was to be used for domestic purposes, it would be injurious *—Yes; but that water is not the water of which I have given you an analysis. 3005. Do you know of any collieries not in your district, that are producing ochrey water ?–Yes; our neighbour, Mr. Stansfield, had some old pits, the work- ings of which deliver ochrey water into a brook which we call Smithey Brook, at the other side of the hill, at Thornhill. 3006. And that spoils the brook 2–Yes, quite so. Before that water ran down that brook it was noted for good trout, but now there is not such a thing to be Seen. 3007. Have any attempts been made to impose re- gulations upon collieries that have been pouring out this ochrey water, and to prevent the killing of the fish –Not to my knowledge. 3008. You know of no regulations that have been put in force —No, none. 3009. I suppose you can easily imagine that collieries may be opened out in a district producing pure water, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 85 some cases it would. I do not know whether you will meet with water in many cases so good as that of which I have given you an analysis, so soft. 3010. What kind of rocks have you sunk through, do you begin in rock at the surface —At the deepest, down to the Flocton bed, or within a very short dis- tance of it we have rock, and we continue in rock for perhaps 14 or 15 yards. 3011. From which of those seams do you pump the soft water 2–From the Flocton bed. 3012. From which does the iron water come 2—The iron water comes from some old workings that were in operation many years ago. It came originally from the surface of the district where iron ore was got. Many years ago, I believe, there was a smelting furnace or something of that kind; this ochrey water comes all from that district, from the surface originally, and we are bound to pump it as it flows down through the old workings. 3013. Is there much sulphur and iron in the coal left in the old workings?–No; we do not profess to leave any coal in the old workings. There are cases where the water is ochrey, as at the workings in the Cromwell bed ; that again is on a higher level, and the water that comes from those old workings, comes out to the day, it was worked as a day-hole by a drift. We do not happen to have any communica- tion between those workings and the workings of the dip, they are cut off by a large throw. 3014. Where would the iron in that case be collected from ?—I imagine from the stratification above. 3015. It would soak down – Yes; percolating through. 3016. The iron does not come from anything left in the old workings —The roof would have fallen, and the workings would be open to the action of the air (the air still circulates through those workings) as well as the dampness of the mine. 3017. A description was given at Wakefield of the manufacture of sulphate of iron by exposing the iron pyrites simply to the rainfall and occasionally watering it ; then the water issuing from this large bed gave out the sulphate of iron. The process occupied a year —I have no doubt it would produce the same effect. - 3018. (Professor Way.) When the ochrey water that issues meets the light, is it very turbid —No, it is clear. 3019. It becomes turbid afterwards —The ochrey water is clear but it leaves a deposit. 3020. It only becomes red by exposure?—If you collect a glassful of that water, to all intents and pur- poses it is clear, but if it is stirred, the sediment which it has already deposited is mixed with it, and it is quite red. 3021. Suppose you let it into a new cut, where there was no deposit already, it would go in clear, but leave a deposit there 2–Yes. 3022. The fact being that the iron is in chemical solution when it issues 2–No doubt of it. 3023. It is like chalybeate water —Yes. 3024. You say that you pump this water (pointing to the same) out separately – That is, a distinct pumping. 3025. Have you ever seen these two waters come in contact –No; the two collieries are a mile apart, as the crow flies. 3026. Does the clearest water contain any alum ?— I am sure I do not know. 3027. This water (pointing to the same) you say is used for washing purposes, but not generally for domestic purposes —Yes, not for culinary purposes. 3028. In any of this water that you say may be objectionable, is there anything else but iron, is there any lead 2–There is nothing objectionable that I know of in any of the water, excepting the iron I have spoken of. 3029. Nothing poisonous 2–No ; before this irony water was allowed to come down into the other pit, the horses and ponies in the pit liked the first water that I produced very much indeed, not that of which you have an analysis but very similar to that. 3030. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you find that your supply of water varies at different times of the year 2–Not in the slightest degree. 3031. A steady quantity is obtained —Yes, at 5% strokes to a minute night and day, the whole year through, no matter whether there is excessive rain or excessively dry weather. 3032. What depth is it?—It is 120 yards deep. 3033. Where is the out-crop of the beds of coal?— That bed of coal that is worked runs up to what we call the 40 yards throw, and then it is thrown up within about 50 yards of the surface, and gradually runs out to the out-crop to the westward. As we go to the dip all the beds of coal go deeper and deeper towards Wakefield, and they have more strata lying above them. 3034. Do you not find, as you extend your working operations, that the water increases —Yes, certainly; as we have gone to the dip we have had more water. 3035. That increase continues gradually but con- stantly —Yes, it is quite constant. With respect to the Hostingley Colliery particularly, we have not found any material variations since we commenced with the new colliery, some six years ago. 3036. Does that gather through the roof of the pit into the workings down to your pit?—The principal source of our water at the new colliery comes from the sinking of the pit itself; the water comes to the strata above us, some 30 yards above the bed of the coal itself, and joins the ochrey water when it gets into the bottom. 3037. And that is constant?—Yes, that ochrey water will vary to some little extent, according to the weather. 3038. (Chairman.) Showing that its source is nearer the surface :-Yes. 3039. Could not you tub out all that water if the seam is dry —No, we have unfortunately sunk upon a spot where the stratification is dislocated in all possible ways, and broken up by the throws. We have tried to tub it out every now and then, and have got to the bottom, and for a time have kept that water back; but as we sunk forward we found that we got into some other open strata, and let the water come down again. - 3040. It turned your flank as it were 2–Yes, it did; ultimately we have had the whole of that water to pump out. The witness withdrew. The witness subsequently forwarded the following:— Copy of an ANALysis of the Water at Combs Pit, before becoming mixed with the irony water from the old workings, made by Mr. Huggon subsequent to this Inquiry. November 1866. “One gallon of the water contains,— Carbonate of lime - - - Carbonate of magnesia I} 16-80 Chloride of sodium – 3:50 Sulphate of soda - - 14:84 Sulphate of magnesia - 9.05 Alumina - - 1*02 Organic matter, a trace. — 45'21 grains. --- “This is a hard water and contains 45 grains of solid matter per gallon, therefore too hard for general purposes. Respecting its use for steam boilers it will not be so hard as it appears at first sight. A great part of the magnesia will not deposit on boiling, and the carbonate of lime and magnesia, being deposited in contact with alkaline salts, will not form a hard crust but a soft friable powder, which will probably run out or easily scrub off with a broom,” * * * - << º º -- - - - º -*. IDEWSBURY. Mr. W. P. Maddison. 23 Oct. 1866. - L 3 86 - Riy ERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. DEWSBURY. Mr. J. Charlesworth. 23 Oct. 1866. - ****Mr. John CHARLEsworth (of Thornhill) examined. 3041. (Chairman.) You are a maltster?—Yes. 3042. Where do you reside –At Thornhill Lees. 3043. Are you a member of the Thornhill local board –Yes. º 3044. How long have you resided at Thornhill Lees? —30 years. 3045. Have you carried on the trade of a maltster for that period?—Yes. 3046. Where are your works situated, near to the river or the canal?—Adjoining the canal. 3047. How long do you remember that canal?—I have known it for more than 30 years, perhaps 40 years. 3048. Is the water in a different state than when you first knew it?–Yes; it used to be fine and clear, it is quite thick and dirty now, and has been for some years past. 3049. What do you think is the cause –I expect it is the refuse from the manufactories, what they dye with. 3050. The refuse comes from feeders into the river? —Yes. 3051. Where do the feeders come in 2–Opposite Ravensthorpe or Mirfield. - 3052. Do you use any water in your trade?—Yes, We steep our barley in water taken from the canal. ºn 3053. What volume of water do you use a day?— We generally steep 48 quarters of barley at a time. I have two kilns; we use a good deal of water. 3054, Do you use water for boiler purposes?–No, we have no engines. 3055. Do you rent the water?—No, there is nothing to pay for the water; we have a right, I expect, to take it from the canal, one of the kilns was bought of the canal company. 3056. It was canal property —Yes. 3057. Do you think the navigation company would allow any other persons to establish works, and to take water out of the canal without paying for it 2–Yes, I believe they would, unless they have altered lately, they used to do so. 3058. Do you find the water as useful for your purpose now as when you first went there –No, we do not like the water so well; it is very dirty, and it discolours the barley. 3059. Does it injure it?–No, but it discolours it, the barley does not look so bright and well when it is made into malt and dried. 3060. Have you tried to filter the water –Yes; we tried to stop the dirt and sludge coming into the well, we made the well up with a quantity of cinders to keep the water as clear as we could, and it has im- proved ever since. - 3061. If you had a larger filter of the same material, do you think it would improve the water more ?—I think it would, but we have not room, the land belongs to the canal company. 3062. Did you formerly use that water for domestic purposes *—Yes. 3063. Do you now use it for domestic purposes?— No ; we fetch it from some springs in Thornhill, about a mile off. 3064. What does it cost you to bring that water —I employ a man and a horse to fetch it, and it takes them a couple of hours to go sometimes. 3065. What would you value the man’s labour at 2 —I give him 3s. a day, and then there is the horse; it cannot cost less than, 1s. or 1s. 6d. 3066. Are there any fish in the canal now 2–No, I never see any. 3067. Did you ever know of fish living in the canal?—Frequently, and fishers used to come and get a good deal of fish out. 3068. How long is it since they have given over fishing?—A long time, perhaps it is ten or a dozen years since they gave over fishing in our cut. 3069. There are men employed, I suppose, to repair the banks of the canal, bank walkers?—Yes. 3070. Do you ever see any carcases of dead animals floating in the canal?—Yes, frequently. º, I 3971. Do those men take them out —I do not know, no doubt they would if they were ordered to do so. - 3072. You have seen carcases floating about in the water –Yes, I have, dogs and different animals, sheep and pigs, dogs are frequent enough. 3073. Are the other inhabitants, put to the same inconvenience as you are, in consequence of the water being so impure ?-- Yes, the neighbourhood generally. 3074. Where do they get water from ?—They get it out of the same canal. - 3075. Have you made any complaint of the foul water —Yes, it got so bad that we could not use it; but the inhabitants generally are obliged to use it, where they have no means of fetching other water. 3076. How far are you from the river ?—Half a mile. - 3077. How much are you above its level?—I can- not say, it is almost on a level. in 3078. Does the river overflow its banks and flood the land 2–Yes. --- 3079. Does it do any injury when it does so 2–It appears to do an injury. Formerly a flood used to do good on the grass land, but now it seems to poison it. 3080. Do you think the floods are as heavy now as they used to be when you first knew the river ?— They are not. 3081. Do you think that there is less water in the river in dry weather than there used to be 2–I think there is ; the flow comes more steady than it used to do formerly; there are more reservoirs to take it, and it comes more regularly. 3082. The flooding of the land formerly was con- sidered an advantage to the farmers, but now you say a flood is considered an evil?–Yes. 3083. Have you thought of any remedy for this neglect of the river ?—No ; I cannot tell what is the cause, except it be some dye wares, or something of that sort. 3084. Are you in hopes of obtaining a supply of water for your place –Yes; there are many com- plaints, and the inhabitants are anxious to have good water, which they have no means of getting. 3085. For drinking purposes?—Yes, we are very anxious to get it if we possibly can. 3086. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you throw any refuse at all from your malt works into the canal 2–No ; we turn the water in again. - 3087. What water —The water in which we steep the barley. - 3088. You steep barley in the water, and turn the water off from the barley into the canal?—Yes. 3089. What condition is that water in 2–It is rather discoloured. 3090. (Professor Way.) And sour —No ; I do not know whether it tastes differently or not. The barley will have been steeped and kept in it for 50 hours; we are obliged to keep barley under water for that time. 3091. (Mr. Harrison.) Could you prevent that nui- sance by any means ?–No ; I do not know that we could. We have a right to take the water from the canal and turn it back again, but we have no business to spoil it, and I am not aware that it is spoiled. 3092. Do the canal company require you to turn the water back again —According to the arrange- ment we could take what water we wanted, provided we turned it back again. - 3093. Do you always steep your barley overhead? —Yes. 3094. Is there not a process by which it is sprinkled?—Yes; we can sprinkle it after six days. 3095. (Professor Way.) The inhabitants do not complain of the material you turn into the canal?–I do not think it is objectionable. 3096. Does it smell if it is kept 2–It will in warm weather, but we do not work in warm weather. 3097. Is it not the fact, that in some malt kilns --- lºvERS CoM Missiºn :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 87 they do not soak the unalt at all, but simply sprinkle it —They cannot manage it without. 3098. Does that depend upon the kind of barley that is used ?–No barley does without steeping, they may keep it in 40 hours; I am not allowed to sprinkle after that. - 3099. The object is to get the barley fully soaked * —Yes. 3100. (Mr. Harrison.) Is there any large extent of land flooded ?–Not now ; I have seen it more so formerly, any flooding which takes place now arises generally from the back water. 3101. Are there banks raised on each side of the river to prevent flooding –Not where this flooding takes place. 3102. There are some between Thornhill and Wakefield –Yes, in some places. 3103. By raising the banks similar to those belov you, might not the flooding be prevented 2–Yes, it is only the back water that will come in. 3104. (Professor Way.) What is done with the sprouted part of the barley, do pigs eat it?—Yes, pigs and cows. The witness withdrew. Mr. Robert LEE RAYNER (of Mirfield) examined. 3105. (Chairman.) You are clerk to the Ravens- thorpe local board, opposite to Thornhill —Yes. 3106. Ravensthorpe district is upon the opposite side of the river Calder 2–Yes. 3107. For what distance does the Calder front your township —Ravensthorpe is not a township, it is simply a district taken out of the parish of Mir- field; the river frontage is about a mile in extent. 3.108. Of what area is your district 2–It is very small, about 350 acres. 3109. What is its rateable value –Last year it was 6670/. 31.10. What is the population ?—There has been no separate census taken, but we think it is about 1,800 or 2,000; it is quite a new district and has sprung up in the last 10 or a dozen years. 3111. How long is it since you adopted the Local Government Act 2—About two years or a little Yº Ore. 3112. Are there any mills in your district 7–Yes; eight mills, I think, one belongs to Mr. Ellis, the mayor, who gave evidence yesterday. 3113. Where do you get your water supply from ? —There is no water supply. 3114. What water do the inhabitants use –They take it simply from wells in the district. 3.115. Do they use the river water for any purposes —I think not. 3116. They resort to wells 2–Yes; the people are very badly supplied indeed. 3117. They find a difficulty in obtaining even well water —Yes; and it is, as I understand, of a very bad sort. 3118. Did they formerly use the river water –I think the inhabitants have done so, but the district has sprung up so recently ; formerly there used to be only a house here and there. 3119. Are there any brooks in your district – Yes, there is one beck, I think, called the Burgh Beck, that is our boundary on the north-east. 3.120. What state is that in 2–I think it is pretty life. 3121. Have you carried out any sewerage in your district 2–No ; there have been no sewerage works done. The board have obtained a survey of the dis- trict with a view of having it sewered, and the difficulty they see is in disposing of the sewage after the works are done. 3122. I suppose at present there is only the river for it 2–Nothing but that; but the district is con- sidered too low even for the sewage to be put into the river. - 3123. Is any part of the district liable to be flooded by the river ?–Yes, the river floods up the Burgh Beck and floods the land ; I have seen the land flooded at times. 3.124. Have you brought any samples of the water : – Yes; this bottle (producing the same) contains water taken out from the Calder below the point where the culvert from those mills spoken about empties itself and that is water from above the point where the culvert empties itself (handing in the same). 3125. Also out of the Calder 2–Yes. 3126. (Professor Way.) Has the first sample been taken out of the river close at the point of contact – Just below. 3127. Before it is fully mixed with the river ?– Yes; this (pointing to the same) was taken out when it was fully mixed with the river, and this (pointing to the same) was taken out close to the place. 3128. (Mr. Harrison.) There is a weir some little distance below *-Yes; this (pointing to the same) was taken out above the weir. I have known the river above this district for as long as I remember anything. I always see a great difference in the river on a Mon- day morning as compared with Saturday, after the works above Mirfield have been standing idle during Sunday, the river always looks much clearer then. 3129. And worse on Saturday than upon any other day ?—Yes. 3130. It would look best on Monday?–Yes; on Monday morning I took out some water a mile above this district at Ledgard Bridge; this was taken out on a Saturday and this on a Monday (pointing to the samples). 3131. (Professor Way.) Do you know generally whether the manufacturers in your district have space enough on their premises for the laying out of tanks, or subsiding reservoirs?—I do not know, I think space is very limited ; I think they have not. 3132. I suppose land is very valuable there 2– Yes, very valuable. 3133. Is there any land in your district where sewage could be applied for agricultural purposes 2– The district is a very small one, and I think there is not space to utilize the sewage. The witness withdrew. Mr. JoHN WoRMALD (of Ravens Lodge, Dewsbury) examined. 3.134. (Chairman.) Are you resident in this dis- trict 2–Yes. 3135. Near to Dewsbury –Yes, at Ravens Lodge. 3136. What points do you wish to speak to ?—You asked Mr. Rayner whether the sewage of Ravensthorpe could be utilized, and whether there was any land to which it be applied. I think irrigation would be totally impossible on account of the level of the land being a great deal too low. 3137. That is to say too low for application by gravitation ?–Yes. 3.188. If pumping were introduced that would remove the difficulty, would it not ?–Yes, it might remove the difficulty, but then the land is so level just there, it is too flat ; it is too level I should think for irrigation at all events. 3138a. Are you the owner of mills?–Not the owner, I am the occupier; my partner is the owner. 3139. Are you engaged in local manufactures — Yes. 3140. Where do you obtain your water for manu- facturing purposes?—We obtain a considerable quantity from the river, and some from the town's Water. 3.141. You pump the river water and purchase the town’s water 2–Yes, DEWSBURY. Mr. J. Charlesworth. 23 Oct. 1866. Mr. R. L. Rayner. Mr. J. Wormald. L 4 88 RIVERS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. DEWSBURY. --- Mr. J. Wormald. 23 Oct. 1866. - 3142. What do you use the two waters for, take the river water first —That is used for scouring and dyeing. 3143. What is the town's water used for 2–The same purposes. 3.144. I assume that you use the river water for the common class of goods, and the town's water for the better class?—I think it is more in this way, that we use the river water when we can, and the town's water when we cannot use the river water. 3145. When the river water is so polluted, you resort to the town's water 2–Yes, that is it ; I have brought down our miller, and he will speak better to that point than I can. 3.146. What number of hands do you employ — About 600. 3147. What is the nature of your manufactures 2– Blankets. 3148. And the process consists of washing and dyeing 2—Yes. 3149. What colour do you dye your blankets — Scarlet, blue, green, and magenta. 3150. Those are, I suppose, for export abroad 2– Yes, mainly ; and we dye a great deal of wool for the stripes. 3151. Where do you send your dyed blankets to, North America —All over the world. 3152. Are they used in this country —Very few. 3153. Do you send them to Australia?—Yes; to China, Japan, and North and South America. 3154. How long have you known the river ?—I have known it for about 20 years. 3155. I suppose manufactories have increased very largely within that period —Very largely indeed. All the mills at Ravensthorpe have been built within I should say 16 years. 3156. Have you paid sufficient attention to the character of the water to know whether it is better or worse than when you first knew it 2–It is very much worse indeed than when I first knew the place. Our men used regularly, during the summer months, to get a net and drag the river, and they took out many stones weight of fish. Now I should think there would be very great difficulty in finding one. 3157. How long is it since they netted the river in that way?—Ishould think 16 or 17 years ago. 3158. What becomes of the water that is polluted, either in dyeing or washing?—We send it back into the river. 3159. Then any person situated below gets all its foulness that you get, and your addition to it?—Yes. 3160. And that process is repeated, I suppose, as far as the river extends and is used ?–It is so as far as I know. 3161. As the number of mills becomes largely increased in the district that process, I suppose, will go on ?—It will if it is not stopped. - 3162. From mill to mill –I imagine so. 3163. With regard to stopping it, have you formed any definite idea as to what should be done to improve the river and the water –Allow me to correct what I have said. I have rather committed an error. We dispose of some of our refuse to Messrs. Teall, Le Paige, and Company. The soap refuse and all the dye water goes back to the river, but the thick of the scouring goes to Messrs. Teall, Le Paige, and Company. 3164. What do they pay you a year for it *—About 1503. a year. 3.165. How long have they taken that refuse from you ?—I think they began last year. 3166. Up to that time you wasted it —Yes. 3167. Do you know what other manufacturers con- tinue to waste it?—I believe there is a considerable number. 3.168. I presume you would not consider it any hardship if other persons were compelled to do for profit what you do for profit —Certainly not. What can be done I think ought to be done. 3169. I suppose there are parties whose mills are not so large as yours, but which produce the same sort of refuse. It might not be worth the while of Messrs. Teall, Le Paige, and Company to fetch it away. In such a case as that, do you think it should be wasted and thrown into the river?—I think not. I think they ought not to be allowed to do it. 3170. If any of your refuse could be utilized, although you might not get a profit from it, would it not be a public benefit if you were compelled to utilize it 2–Yes, if everybody else was compelled likewise. At the same time I must say this, that all the water that is taken out of the river ought to be returned to it again. 3171. You do not think it would be an improvement of the river to pump all the foul water away if that were possible –If the water was not returned to the river the property belonging to mill owners that work by water power would be very considerably deterio- rated. I believe this, that if all the foul water that now comes into the river above us were kept out the mill property, of which I am the occupier, would be dete- riorated at least 400ſ. or 500/. a year. 3172. That is to say, the water is necessary for the trade of the district 2—Yes. 3173. And pure water would be much better than foul water 2–No doubt. 3174. Do you agree with this. I have been informed by a manufacturer that for dyeing and washing purposes he would rather have a pint of pure water than a gallon of foul water —I cannot agree with that, because we work 100-horse power by Water. 3.175. For water-power purposes you want the foul water?—Yes; and if that power were taken away from us the mills would be very little worked. 3176. You would not probably assent to a proposal to take the foul water to an intercepting culvert and carry it past the head of your mill?—Certainly not. We should oppose that by every means in our power. 3177. You would say, purify the water as much as you like, but throw power into the river above us?— Yes. 3178. Is it probable that any attempt at general purification will be made unless Parliament should deem it necessary to enforce it 2–I feel convinced that otherwise nothing of the kind will be attempted. We should be very happy to do anything that others did, but at the same time I am quite convinced that a very large number of the manufacturers would not agree upon it. 3179. You would not be able voluntarily to combine among yourselves for such a purpose?--My opinion is that we could not. 3180. Some external power must be brought to bear upon you ?—Certainly. 3181. You wish to be helped in a practical manner? —Yes. 3182. In the event of a conservancy board being formed, should it be composed of gentlemen repre- senting the properties to be dealt with ?—No doubt : a portion of it ought to be so formed. 3183. And should there be some controlling power to see that that board did its duty —I suppose that that would be necessary, but I have hardly given the matter my attention so as to be able to offer an opinion. 3184. You seem to have come to a strong conclu- sion that if left to yourselves there is not much chance of forming an efficient board —I have no hope of that. 3185. Then there must be some authority to con- trol you ?—I think that would be wise if anything is to be done. 3186. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you observed that the river has been polluted to this degree within the last 16 or 17 years?—Certainly. 3187. Is the growth of manufactures in the valley of the Calder such that that pollution is likely to go on increasing to a great extent —I should think so. 3.188. So that that which is now merely a nuisance will, in a few years, become intolerable —I think so. 3189. Within the last few years many reservoirs have been constructed at different places to supply the towns with water?—Yes, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 89 3190. Have you observed what has been the effect of those upon the volume of water coming down the river at different times; for example, has the flood water diminished 2–I cannot say that I have noticed that. 3191. Have you a more regular supply of water in the summer season than you used to have *—I cannot say whether we have or not. This year we have had plenty of water, but last year and the year before we ran short of it. I think it was more from the dry seasons than anything else. 3192. You have not experienced any beneficial result in the Calder from the compensating reservoirs that have been constructed in the different valleys — I really cannot tell. 3.193. You have stated that Messrs. Teall and Company take and pay you for the thick of the scouring 2–Yes. 3.194. Would it be possible to use the water em- ployed in the last process of scouring when it is com- paratively clean in the first process of the subsequent scouring, so as not to return any into the river, but to send to Messrs. Teall all the refuse from the scouring process —I think not ; for instance, some of our refuse of the scouring is never sent to Messrs. Teall at all, when we scour with fuller's earth we never send the refuse at all. 3.195. What part of the scouring process is that ? —Sometimes we scour our goods entirely with that. 3196. And use no soap 2–No ; or we only use it in very small qualities, but in that case it is not worth Messers. Teall's while to take the waste water. The water is then poured into the river; at the same time so far as scouring with the earth is concerned, no damage is done at all, for the earth is a weighty matter, and sinks down very quickly. 3197. But it removes some of the oily matter – Yes it does, and the grease. 3.198. But not in sufficient quantity to make it worth while to preserve the waste water –No. 3199. Would water so used be suitable for scouring with soap 2–I should doubt it. I do not think it would, as there would be the dirt of the blankets in it, and the dirt of the wool itself. 3200. Could you not separate the dirt very easily —We could not ; the only use I could imagine it put to, would be this; the water could be caught and allowed to settle, and the sediment might perhaps be used as manure, but I think it would be of very little uSø 320]. It would contain a quantity of oil and some particles of wool —Yes; and it would be so difficult to take the wool out of it; that causes great difficulty in applying the sediment as manure, especially to grass land. 3202. On what account 2–Because you cannot shake the wool loose, to put the sediment evenly over the land. 3203. The wool would be, I take it, good for manure, would it not *—I think not very good. I do not think the wool would be of any use at all; it might be when decayed. 3204. Can you give us an idea of the volume of water which you use in scouring and other processes in your manufactures, for a certain weight of wool daily or weekly —I could do it, but not at the present moment. - 3205. Will you be kind enough to furnish us with those particulars 2–Yes. 3206. You say that you use the water of the Calder as power —Yes. 3207. At the end of the week do you open your sluices, and let the water pass —No. 3208. At any period of the year do you cleanse out the pond of water that you have above the mill —Yes, we generally cleanse it once a year. 3209. Do you find much deposit in it —Yes; there is a very considerable deposit generally. 3210. By what means do you get rid of it; do you wheel it out, or pass it on ?–We pass it on. We have a sluice that we can open, and we throw all the filth 17159.-2. and deposit in so that the water when it comes in will DEWSBURY. take it down the sluice. 3211. And then some one else has to send it on again, I presume —Yes; those below have the benefit of it. 3212. Is there any general arrangement among the mill owners by which this is done systematically on certain days in the year 2–I do not know that there is any arrangement, we generally do it on a holiday when the mill is standing, and we can do it without losing the water. 3213. (Chairman.) You do not consult anyone either above or below you ?–No. 3214. (Mr. Harrison.) Would it be any great hardship to you if you were obliged on those occasions to wheel the mud out, and not send it down 2–I do not know what could be done with it; we should have to deposit it somewhere. 3215. Would it not make a good manure for land 2–I believe not. 3216. Have you ever tried it 2–No. 4217. (Chairman.) What becomes of the ashes from your mill furnaces –We have not very much of them ; we bury them and raise the land with them ; we have a deep pit where we get sand, and we put the ashes back. 3218. You do not throw them into the river ?— No ; we do not allow that to be done, if we know it. 3219. Do you mend the surface of the roads with them occasionally —Yes; if we wanted we should do so. 3220. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the character of the deposit that you find in the bed of your reservoir? —It is slime and mud. 3221. Should you say it was chiefly refuse from the manufactories above —I should think a good deal of it was from the manufactories above; a good deal of it is actually mud, that has come down in the floods, all amalgamated together. 3222. If any system of filtration were made obligatory on the manufacturers above you, do you think that that quantity of mud would be diminished? —Decidedly. 3223. (Professor Way.) Do Messrs. Teall and Com- pany supply you with a process by which the grease is got rid of 2–No ; they put up a small pump, and the stuff is pumped across the river, passing through pipes laid along the bed to the other side, where it is received in some works of their own. 3224. And you know nothing of the waste water, but that it is there left 2–No. 3225. I suppose that what grease they extract is principally grease from the soap *—Yes; principally from the soap and the oil. 3226. If you are merely washing with fuller's earth, it is only the grease that comes from the wool –Yes, and there is no soap used then. 3227. And the grease from the wool only is not worth recovering 2–I believe they do not consider it so. They pay our miller a certain sum, I believe, to look after their interests in that way ; that is, to send them all that is worth having, and not to let them have what is not; I believe that what is not sent to them from the milling would do very little mischief in the stream; the fuller's earth would very soon sink to the bottom. 3228. (Chairman.) Do you use much coal for steam purposes —Yes, a considerable quantity. 3229. Have you paid attention to the consumption of smoke 2–Yes. We have consumed our smoke, at least in the boilers, for many years; we have used Robertson's patent, but it requires a considerable draught, and is expensive. We have had to use very superior coal, in fact, house coal. This year, just within a week or two, we have fitted two boilers with Jukes's Patent, and, as far as I can judge, it seems likely to do everything that is required, and be a saving into the bargain. 3230. You think that, with proper regulations, a great portion of the dense smoke, which is now sent M Mr. J. Wormald. 23 Oct. 1866. - 90 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, DEWSBURY. M. J. Wormald. 23 Oct. 1866. Mr. J. Tattersfield. out into the atmosphere, might be prevented ?–I am sure of it. 3231. Do you think that you would require to have some similar regulations for purification of the river ?—I think that municipal boards ought to be able to compel it. 3232. Of what persons are those boards usually constituted 2–Manufacturers mainly. 3233. Persons who make smoke and also pollute rivers ?–Yes; but if they have a certain duty to per- form, they ought to be compelled to perform it. 3234. Do you make gas on your premises?—Yes. 3235. What do you do with the refuse from your gas ; the lime, or the ammoniacal liquor 2–The am- monia is all taken away. I should explain, that we do not make the gas ourselves, there is a gas engineer who makes it ; but, I believe, that nothing from the gas goes into the river. 3236. If you emptied the gas tank, would not the contents be pumped into the river?—From the gaso- meter. I think we very seldom have to empty that ; but the gas is under the gas engineer, he makes the gas and supplies us with it at so much per 1,000 cubic feet. I will only add that the eight mills at Ravens- thorpe appear to me to have done more mischief to the river than all the other mills put together, at all events as far as we are concerned. 3237. Why have they done more mischief than other mills?—I do not suppose that they are worse than other mills, only that they are just above us. All those manufacturers make heavy goods, and I believe they all use a considerable amount of dye. 3238. (Mr. Harrison.) Your mill is situated below those eight mills 2–Yes; and we see a very consider- able amount of nuisance coming from the beck that runs along the Heckmondwicke valley. 3239. (Chairman.) That arises, I suppose, from a combination which benefits the eight individuals, but no one else 2–Yes, that is the case. 3240. I suppose that is a form of combination that you would expect to find carried out if the sewerage of the district was carried out by individuals —Yes. 3241. They may combine for their special benefit, but they would not have the power, if they had the will, to combine with all above and below them 2– Certainly not; if the water in their culvert passed any weir, they would be destroying the water power, I think; supposing that anything was done in the way of purifying the river, it would be very considerably to the deterioration both of the navigation and of the millowners’ property on the river, where power is used, if the water that was taken out was not returned. 3242. Any scheme for purifying the river must con- template the maintenance of the volume of water 2– Certainly. 3243. (Professor Way.) So far as water power is concerned, probably all those mills that lie between the water power above and the water power below, that is, between two water powers, might combine to deal with their material without any injury to the water power, provided that they discharged it finally above the lower mill?—Certainly. 3244. (Mr. Harrison.) The fuller's earth that you use I suppose settles in the bed of the river ?—Yés. 3245. And it requires to be removed 2–It is re- moved by the floods; but I do not think the amount that is put in is of such importance as really to do any great harm. 3246. Would it be any great burden upon those using it if they were compelled to keep it out of the river by subsiding tanks —That is a very difficult thing to form an opinion about, and for this reason, that a very large number of the fullers are on such low ground, that all the water to be removed would have to be pumped up. When we are on low ground, if we make tanks, having room to do it, how are we to get the water off? 3247. You could pump it up.–Yes; but that takes a considerable amount of power, and that power is always a certain cost. 3248. (Professor Way.) Have you not got settling tanks for the water you are going to use 2–No, we have not. I believe it has been found that the water will settle very soon. 3249. (Mr. Harrison.) Fuller's earth will settle very rapidly —Yes; and dye water will settle very soon. I can only say, that I think the only way would be to cause all new dyehouses to be erected upon such ground, that two or three tanks could be used, and the water let out from one to another. 3250. Could the water be let out from those sub- siding tanks comparatively pure ?—I believe it could. 3251. (Professor PWay.) Did you ever notice the effect of fuller's earth when mixed with dye water?— I have seen it running into the river, and the two seemed to make a filthy compound together. 3252. If you were dealing with dye refuse water, and you were to discharge fuller's earth into it, would that have any tendency to cleanse the dye water 2– No. 3253. (Mr. Harrison.) The oily matter that fuller's earth takes out of the cloth might be separated by Messrs. Teall in the same way as the oily matters taken out by soap *—No doubt it might be if it was worth while. I think it would be hardly worth while to do it. 3254. The oily matter that is left in the water used for finishing and cleansing purposes might also be removed —That is taken away. 3255. After Messrs. Teall and Company have got the thick of the soapsuds I presume that the soap and oily matter left in the remainder of the water, used in the latter part of the process, might also be abstracted if means were employed for that purpose?—I do not know whether it is possible or mot. 3256. Has it ever been attempted 2–Not that I am aware of, but I believe Messrr. Teall have said that it is not worth their while to do it. 3257. (Professor Way.) Do you think that the occupiers of new mills might be required to make arrangements for subsiding tanks?–Yes, I think that would be the only way. The witness withdrew. Mr. Joseph TATTERSFIELD (of Ravensthorpe) examined. 3258. (Chairman.) What are you?—A fulling miller. 3259. Where are you Cook and Wormald’s. 3260. Is much water used there for fulling 2– Yes. 3261. Where do you get it from ?—Out of the river. 3262. How long have you used it from the river ? —Above 30 years. 3263. Is the water better or worse than when you first knew it?—It is a deal worse than it was three years since. 3264. In what respect?—It is very filthy, and in the summer time it works the same as barm ; it ferments. employed 2–At Messrs. 3265. What effect has it upon cloth milling 2–Ours are white goods, and they cannot be got so white In OW. 3266. You want to produce white goods and you cannot get the whiteness that you did formerly? —No ; we use the town's water to get the goods whiter. 3267. Are goods less valuable when they are of a bad colour than when they are of a good colour – Yes; they will not sell for so much in the market. 3268. The use of impure water lowers the value of your goods?—Yes; we cannot finish them so well or make them look so handsome. 3269. How long is it since your goods have been affected in this way by the water?—They have been RIVERS COMMISSION: —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 9| affected in this way since we began building at Ravensthorpe, 16 or 17 years. 3270. As the mills increase the water gets worse * —Yes. 3271. If they build more mills under the same conditions I suppose you would expect the water to get still worse —Yes. 3272. Do you think it might get so bad that you could not use it all?–It is not fit to use now in the summer time. 3273. That is when the river is low and when the weather is warm 2–Yes. 3274. Does it at all affect your health when it is fermenting in the way you have described P-I cannot say that, I enjoy very good health. 3275. Does it affect the health of any of the work- men 2–I never heard them complain; they get used to it. 3276. Do you think that anything can be done to prevent the fouling of the water which you have seen going on 2–I cannot speak as to that. 3277. I suppose you think that if there were fewer mills you would get back to your old state again – Yes; if there were no mills we should be as we were at first. 3278. It is the multiplication of these mills and the further use of the water which makes this water worse for you ?–Yes. 3279. Are all other manufacturers interfered with in the same way as you are?—They are interfered with below. 3280. Other manufacturers below suffer just the same as you do?—Yes; but our grease is sold, and we pump something like three parts of it to Messrs. Teall & Co. One man has 20!, a year for turning on valves when it is ready. 3281. They give one man 201, a year for selecting it 2–Yes. 3282. All that which he does not choose to have goes now into the river?—Yes. 3283. And those below get the benefit of it?—Yes. 3284. Do any persons above you send that sort of grease into the river?—They all send it in. 3285. Is it that grease or something else which makes the river so bad?—The dye stuff is as bad as anything. 3286. Do you mean that the dye water would fer- ment if left to itself?—Yes, and the grease along with it, the waste water which comes from Heckmond- wicke. 3287. Do you think that the water from logwood would ferment if left alone, without anything else? No ; it is the grease which is so bad. 3288. (Professor Way.) Is it the grease, or is it the urine and stuff which you mix in the scouring?— We use urine, but we use plenty of ammonia from gas water. 3289. (Chairman.) Do you use much pig manure? —Yes. 3290. That would help to ferment?—Yes, 3291. (Professor Way.) It goes with the grease, does it not *—Yes; the pig manure gets the grease from the wool, and so does ammonia. 3292. (Mr. Harrison.) Do the eight mills which Mr. Wormald spoke of empty their refuse into your pond?—Yes. 3293. Is there any deposit of mud in the river below their outlet above your weir 2–Yes, it settles in our dam. 3294. Is that what you speak of as fermenting 2– Yes. 3295. The deposit from the refuse from those eight mills?—Yes. 3296. Is it that which Mr. Wormald meant when he said that he thought that the water which you use is more injured by the refuse from those eight mills than from other mills above?—Yes; we have wheels, and it keeps the water discoloured. 3297. (Chairman.) How many wheels have you? —Three. 3298. Of what size are they?—I cannot tell you. 3299. Are all of them under-shot?—They are what we call bucket wheels, they are breast-shot. 3300. Are you ever stopped by the river coming in floods?—Yes, by what we call back-water. 3301. So that you cannot work?—We cannot work. 3302. The wheel is brought to a stand?—Yes, it Cannot run. 3303. How many days in the year are you in that condition?—I cannot say. Sometimes two or three days in a week; it depends upon the weather. 3304. Have you been back-watered this autumn 2– We were back-watered last Friday. 3305. Does the frost stop you?—No, I do not know that it does. 3306. Does not the ice interfere with working the wheels?–No ; we have grease to prevent it. 3307. Did you catch any fish in the river when you first knew it?—Yes; I have seen scores and scores of them. 3308. Do you see any now —No ; none can live in it. 3309. How long is it since it has ceased to be fished? —I do not know. I should think that there have been none these dozen years. No fish will live in the river Calder. 3310. What is it which kills them, is it the grease, or the chemicals, or the dye water?—The chemicals I suppose. - 3311. Not the dye water?—And the dye water, I suppose. 3312. The chemicals which they put into the dye water —Yes. The river water has become very hard, it used to be very soft. I think that it is the dye stuff which causes it, the different spirits. 3313. (Professor Way.) You say that three-fourths of the soap liquid is pumped across the river?—Yes, something like that. The main quantity of my grease is pumped to the other side of the river to Messrs. Teall's works. 3314. Did you ever go across to Messrs. Teall's works?—Yes. 3315. They have subsiding tanks there?—Yes. 33.16. They add something to the soap liquid, and let it stand, I suppose 2–Yes. 3317. Do they heat the liquid —No, it is entirely cold. * 3318. There are no steam pipes, and no steam is blown into it?—No. 3319. Are the tanks out of doors?—They were out of doors, but they have put a shed to them. 3320. Have you any idea of what size those tanks are 2–About the size of this window, they are small tanks. I’OOIn. 3321. Do you know how often they run them off? —No. 3322. Do they run them off more than once or twice a-day ?—I do not know. 3323. What is the nature of the liquid which runs away, have you ever seen it running away?—It goes into the river again. 3324. Is the pipe above ground so that you can see it *—I cannot state that. 3325. Supposing that you pumped three-fourths of the liquid and that the tanks which receive those three-fourths occupy the space which you have men- tioned, I suppose that one-third more tanks would take the whole of the remainder of that liquid, would they not?—Yes, I should think that they would. But we run the cloth longer in clean water when we scour a piece off, which we call finishing a piece; we should run more water with the fourth part than we should with the three fourths. 3326. Do you pump three fourths of the water over and wash with the other one fourth without pumping it —Yes; when we obtain this grease we put fuller's earth on it. 3327. And you use a considerable quantity of water afterwards?—Yes. 3328. That is the water which Mr. Wormald was speaking of 2–Yes, Taking the whole body, they would fill this. DEWSBURY. Mr. J. Tattersfield. 23 Oct. 1866. M 2 92 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. }) EWSBURY. Mr. J. Tattersfield. 23 Oct. 1866. Mr. W. Oates. 3329. Still three fourths of the real soap liquid and grease are sent across?—Yes. 3330. You do not use the fuller's earth with the other fourth, namely, the last quantity after you have ceased to pump?—No, excepting with some goods, with those we always use fuller's earth. 3331. You do not pump any part of that across at all 2–No. 3332. You say that a man has 20!, a year for taking care that this quantity is stopped off at the right time 2–20 of the men share in the 20/. ; that money is for their trouble. 3333. Have Messrs. Teall ever said that you were sending the refuse over too weak 2–No. 3334. How does the man judge that it is time to shut it off; by the look of the water —Yes, and then it is run into a copper sieve to catch flock from it before it goes. 3335. I suppose that the last few gallons, just before he shuts it off, are much about the same kind of stuff as the next few after it is shut off?—Yes. 3336. (Mr. Harrison.) You say that three fourths of the water which is used in cleaning the cloth with soap is pumped across to Messrs. Teall & Co 7– €S. 3337. And the fourth portion of the water is let go into the river ?—Yes. 3338. You do pump water from the river for the purpose of this cloth 2–Yes. 3339. If you keep the last portion back for the next portion of cloth which you were going to clean would you do so without disadvantage —No, we should be at some disadvantage. 3340. I mean, if instead of using fresh water to clean the next piece of cloth with soap, you used again so much of the water as Mersrs. Teall had refused to take —No, that would not do at all, there is no scouring stuff at all in it. 3341. Would it not do as well as water from the river ?—No. 3342. Why not ?–Because it is not so clear. 3343. Still it would be much cleaner than the water after it has been used in cleaning cloth 2–Yes; when we have the taps on we wash the cloth till it is as clean as the river water will give us. 3344. (Professor Way.) Still, supposing that you were to begin with fresh clean water, not river water, but ordinary bright water, the last part of your wash- ing would be almost bright water because you continue to wash whilst anything comes away, do you not 2– We do. (Mr. Wormald.) What has been suggested would hardly do for us; no doubt if we washed the cloth till we got the water regularly clean we might use the same water back again, but so long as there was any dirt in the water it would not do to wash the pieces in it. 3345. (Professor Way.) But you would come back to the dirtiest part of the whole stuff, you would use that water for the first process instead offinishing with it *-Yes; but the point with us is to have as clear water as we can for every purpose, and if we used dirty water for any purpose it would be a disadvantage to us. 3346. You mean that you might adopt such a plan if you had to economise water, but that you would not do it whilst you had plenty of water 2—I do not think that it would answer, we should have to put up works and do all sorts of things for it. 3847. (Mr. Harrison.) You would merely have to pump the water that had been used for the last quarter of the process of one lot back for the first opération of the next lot instead of pumping an equivalent volume of water from the river ?–We should have to use more water for the same purpose. I doubt whether there would be any advantage in the plan. 3348. The whole refuse water would then go forward to Messrs. Teall?–It would never answer for Messrs. Teall, in fact, it would soon stop any connexion between us, if we sent a lot of water which had nothing 111. 3349. (Chairman to Mr. Tattersfield.) Is there any- thing further which you wish to add 2–No. 3350. (Professor Way.) Is the water as you get it fit to make the first class of scarlets?—Not the very first class of scarlets. 3351. If you were told that dirty water was as good as clean and did not make any difference in scarlet cloth, would you believe it 2–No. 3352. (Chairman.) You are not quite so particular in your blanket dying as they are in some piece dying in getting the very brightest colours ?—They are rather particular in some colours. 3353. Do you think that people who buy blankets suppose that a bright colour makes the blankets warmer ?—No, but it looks better. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM OATEs (Dewsbury) examined. 3354. (Chairman.) What are you ?—I am a servant to the Aire and Calder Navigation Company. 3355. In what capacity ?—I am in no capacity now they have taken all my work from me ; I have just the same wages and just the same privileges but very little to do. I have been 40 years with them as fore- man of the labourers, messenger, and what they call bank-walker. I entered as bank-walker. 3356. How long do you remember the canal and the river ?–Ever since I could remember anything. I was born within about 300 yards of a weir what they call Dam Stones. 3357. What age are you now 2–I was 82 the 11th of this month. - 3358. Then you remember the river for 70 years 2 —Yes, very well ; my father worked at the mills. 3359. Were the river and canal bright water when you first knew them —Yes; the river was a little foul in scarce water time ; there were many fish about that dam, and they made the water bad. People used to send for water above the Dam Stones. 3360. Because the fish made it bad below the dam 2 —Yes, after the freshes, when the water had settled. 3361. Do fish make the water foul now —No, they have gradually diminished. 3362. You have no fish now 2–We have no fish In OW. 3363. What fouls the canal and river water now * —Dyeworks have been the most destructive, so far as fish go. 3364. Have you had anything to do with dredging the river or canal 2–Yes; I was foreman of the men nearly 25 years, ordering them what to do, and so O11. - 3365. Of the dredgers ?—Yes. I did not work with them, but I only ordered them what to do under the engineer. 3366. What used they to get out in dredging when you first had to do with them 2–In the river there was sand. 3367. And mud —Not much mud in the river. 3368. Were there any ashes?—No. 3369. What do you now get out —I have a sample to show you, (producing the same) we had four men dredging this morning. I got this out of the water this morning. These things come down with the water to the lock gates and they get in ; they are drawn to and they grind the woodwork of the lock gates away. 3370. (Professor Way.) This floats at the top 2– Yes. 3371. (Chairman.) That is a species of pumice – Yes; it is very like pumice. 3372. Those things float on the water and grind the paddle-wheels?—Yes, whenever you open the gate they grind. RIVERS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 93 3373. Where do these cinders come from ?–They come from the manufactories above, in many places, generally out of the river Colne. (The witness pro- duced another sample.) I told our men this morning to get me a bit from out where they last ran the rake. 3374. And that is the sand which they dredge out now 2–Yes. 3375. That is sand and gravel and ashes 2–Yes. 3376. (Mr. Harrison.) That is got out of the river ?–Yes. 3377. (Chairman.) When you first knew the river, used the bed to be clean sand 2–Yes. 3378. Not such dirty stuff as this?—Not such as this. 3379. Does this stink in summer ?—I do not know much about this; there is a scour in the river, par- ticularly at the locks when boats are passing through. More particularly up Halifax way. 3380. (Mr. Harrison.) Is this sample from a sand bank formed by the late flood —Yes, by the last flood which came. Very often floods drain the ashes down; and in the parts where we dredge they do not take pains to narrow the waterway, and so the bed makes up again. - 3381. (Chairman.) What do you think can be done in order to keep this rubbish out —To a certain ex- tent the navigation company have a law to prevent manufacturers putting any kind of rubbish in. 3382. Does the company put that law in force – No. 3383. Why do they not?—This power can only go so far as the navigation goes ; viz., where the boats O. 3384. Do you know where these things which you have produced come from ?–No. About seven years since we sent up to Huddersfield to see what they were doing in the river in the summer time when the water was low at a place called Bradley Mills. 3385. Were they putting these cinders in 2–1 did not see them do so, but the cinders were in the river, and I could have stridden across over the gap. 3386. And then when a flood comes it washes all the cinders away –Yes. 3387. And they come down into your lock gates? —They come down into our chinks. 3388. And they get into the cloughs?—These are what we complain of as grinding the cloughs away, and the gates, namely, these swimming things. 3389. A great many sink?—Yes, and they go into the chinks. 3390. (Professor Way.) Are there smelting works of any sort above there?—No ; I think that these are cinders from the steam engines. As the other part sinks this washes out and floats away. 3391. (Chairman.) Do you think that anything could be done to keep these things out 3–I think that it could be easily done, as many of them do here; manufacturers here never put ashes in, that I am aware of, and I live close by ; they all take them away. 3392. Then you think that all mills ought to take the ashes away ?—I do. 3393. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you dredge the cuts as well as the river itself?—Yes. 3394. What kind of deposit do you get out of the cuts –That is mud. 3395. You have not brought a sample of that ?— No. 3396. What does that appear to be a deposit from ? —It is a very light sediment as it comes down, and gets in, but when it accumulates it is middling solid. 3397. Do you dredge any large quantity from the cuts –We have begun lately to sluice the cuts as they do at the mill dams. 3398. You have taken a lesson from the mill owners ?–Yes. 3399. What becomes of the mud —It goes down the river. 3400. Do you take opportunities of sluicing the cut during flood time —No ; we take an opportunity here of doing it when there is a feast. 3401. A holiday ?—When the mills are standing. 3402. What quantity do you suppose settles there in the course of a twelve month 2–On one side it will be 3 feet thick in some places. 3403. How long will it take to deposit those 3 feet? —We do not clean it all at once, or we should almost fill up the river, we must make a nice sort of channel. 3404. How long does it take to deposit the 3 feet in the channel?—Many years. 3405. How many years —I should think that we cleaned one part out, which is short of a mile long, in 1826, and we have never done anything more to it till within the last 15 years; we never sluiced it or dredged it for that time, namely, from 1826 to 1851 or 1852, I cannot say for a year or two. 3406. What quantity might have settled in that time —I think that we have sluiced it now three times, and it might get 3 feet thick. 3407. Is there much more sediment now than there was 28 or 30 years ago?—Yes. 3408. I presume that the water in the cuts is tolerably quiet as compared with that in the river ?— Yes. 3409. Do you find that the water in the cuts becomes much clearer than the water in the river ?— Yes ; some which gets in the cut lies quiet. 3410. And does it get clear as compared with the water in the river ?—Yes, it is a deal clearer, but I do not know that it is so clear as that it could be used for domestic purposes. 3411. During the period that you have known the river have you observed whether the floods are greater or less than they used to be 2–I have a list of all the floods since 1799, but I could not lay my hands on it this morning. I wrote a letter to the papers some years ago when there was some squabbling about waterworks at Halifax, and I have it here, and it talks about some of the floods; they have gradually been diminished since 1799. 3412. There are fewer of them and they have diminished in volume —Yes; this is the letter which I wrote, it is an abstract; there were 30 other floods besides those that are registered here; but none is registered except it was a flood above 7 feet; the register is kept so far. 3413. In 1799 there was a flood which rose 16 feet 3 inches —Yes. 3414. The next flood is in December 1815, it is 15 feet 4 inches —Yes. 3415. In January 1818 the flood was 13 feet 3 inches; in December 1824 it was 12 feet 7 inches; in November 1825, 12 feet. No flood from this time reached 12 feet, till 1833, when the water rose 12 feet and 1 inch. In 1834 there was one flood 13 feet 1 inch, in 1835, 12 feet 8 inches; in 1836, 13 feet 10 inches; in 1837, 12 feet 7 inches, in 1837 again 15 feet; in 1838, 12 feet 2 inches; in 1839, 12 feet 2 inches in January 1840, 7 feet 11 inches; another in January 1840, 12 feet 3 inches; in August 1840, 12 feet 6 inches; in November 1840, 12 feet 5 inches. 1840 appears to have been a very floody year —Yes. 3416. In 1843, 12 feet 4 inches: in October 1845, 12 feet 8 inches; and again in December 1845, 13 feet 6 inches. In 1852, 13 feet 6 inches; in 1856, 14 feet, in 1857, 14 feet 6 inches; in 1859, 11 feet, and again in December 1859, 12 feet. You do not know the height of the floods since that. Those are all above the low-water level –Yes. 3417. Do you think that those figures show a gradual diminution ?–Yes. 3418. Have you observed the height of the water during summer; is it more regular or otherwise than it used to be 2–I should say that the mills could do a great deal more work. I was captain of a boat 18 years, and 30 tons was the general cargo in the sum- mer time; but now boats go up in a deal less time, in a quarter of the time, with nearly double that weight them, namely, 55 tons. 3419. What depth of water did vessels draw which carried 30 tons —3 feet 9 inches. DEWSBURY. - Mr. W. Oates. 23 Oct. 1866. - M 3 94 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. DEWSBURY. Mr. W. Oates. 23 Oct. 1866. - 3420. And what do they draw now, carrying 55 tons 2–4 feet 9 inches. 3421. Do you consider that in the dry season of the year there are now 4 feet 9 inches of water where formerly there used to be only 3 feet 9 inches –The mill owners then ran out of one dam into another with all their power. If two parties happened to adjoin one another on the river, which they did at many places, they each ran as hard as they could at the dam till the water was run off. That caused the mill below to run off. The manufacturers were afraid of one get- ting more of the water than another, but now they agree to run the water nearly dam full and so there is a better and more regular passage, and they do more work at it. 3422. You mean to say that during summer time millers have a great control over the water, and can either pass a great quantity or can keep it back — Yes. 3423. And they pass it more steadily than they used to do —Yes. 3424. Do you think that the compensation reser- voirs which have been made in the upper part of the river have had much effect 2–Yes. I attribute the apparent increase of water to the regular passage, and to so many reservoirs having been made. 3425. Formerly, when there was only a limited quantity of water coming down at certain times, the millers used to fight for it, as it were, but now they know that it will come steadily, and they let it pass off quietly and peacefully – Yes. Formerly if a shower of rain came down in the night it would almost make a fresh, but now it will rain for a day or two before there is a fresh. 3426. Is any of that extra depth due to the effect of your dredging —Yes, partly, and partly there has been an improvement in the draught. 3427. You say that the vessels draw a foot more water than they used to do?—Yes; but the vessels which you had of 30 tons would not carry 55 tons at 4 feet 9 inches, but now they have got to know the length and breadth of the locks, and they have got a better system of putting in the goods so as to make the vessel be lighter in the water. 3428. Is the land much flooded near the river?—In 1857 a flood came ; I think upon the 10th of August, and it overflowed the land. The land was what we call covered up. The brother of Mr. Charlesworth, whom you examined this morning, had some land down at Horbury Bridge flooded ; it was such poisonous water that it killed all the grass land when it lay for any length of time ; and he brought an action against the company. What was the result of it I never knew. We were all ready to go to York, and had orders to be prepared. 3429. I presume that any water standing for some time upon land would destroy the grass? – They reckon that grass will live under water for about a fortnight. At this land which I am talking about, below Horbury Bridge, there was seldom a winter in former times when it was not covered. 3430. How long did the water stand upon it on this occasion before it destroyed the grass?—I can scarcely say the time. 3431. Was it a week, or a fortnight, or three weeks —I should think that it would be a week, but I can hardly say. There were some boys bathing on the 3d of September in the same field. 3432. Has the land been injured since by a flood — Yes; in the year following, on the 15th of August, there was an overflow again. It did not do that damage to the grass land which the first flood did, but it did a deal of damage to fields of wheat. The first flood on the 10th of August damaged a field of potatoes of six acres just opposite Dewsbury here, and on the 15th of August, in the year following, it flooded the standing corn. As the ground was high the water was flowed off again, and they did not seem to lose much by it. 3433. Is the river embanked so as to keep floods off the land adjoining –Up to about 1850 there were banks for almost the whole length, but now they have destroyed them very much. In 1857 I think there was a big flood, but it would not have gone on to the land had the banks been good. 3434. Whose duty is it to keep the banks in repair? It is the duty of the landlord. 3435. Who keeps the sluices in repair at the outlets for the drainage 3–1 do not know. One man wanted to say that we had neglected keeping the outlet sluice, and he said that there was not one, but when we came to look for it it was covered 3 feet thick with mud. 3436. Who removed that mud so as to let the trap work freely –We did. 3437. The Aire and Calder Canal Company?—Yes. It was the Calder and Hebble Company then. You are aware that the Aire and Calder Company have now rented the Calder and Hebble Navigation. You asked several times whether any complaints had ever been made about the dyeworks above. This is some- thing which I have taken out of a pan belonging to the Stockport Water Company (producing the same). They had a trial about some chemical works fouling the water. 3438. (Professor Way.) When you are dredging in the river or in the cuts, do you disturb a large quantity of mud and send it floating down the river ?–Dredg- ing makes the water thick for a time, we cannot get all the stuff out by dredging. 3439. Does it slip off the pans ?—No, it does not slip of the pans, but the water becomes like a puddle, and we bring up as much water as mud. 3440. And you put the mud into the barges just as you bring it up, do you not *—Yes, and then we put it on to the spoil bank. 3441. But I suppose that dredging in the river where the bottom is very muddy makes the water worse for the people below, does it not *—Yes; but there is scarcely ever any mud in the river. - 3442. It is only in the cuts?—Only in the cuts; in the river it is generally ashes and sand. 3443. You believe that the mud in the river is carried away by every fresh –The mud lies more down by Wakefield than it does here, because the river is deeper and there are longer levels. 3444. In fact the mud comes down the river but does not rest in the river, it is carried on ?—Just so ; a fresh, when it comes, clears it. - 3445. Do the men suffer at all in health when they are at work dredging —I am not aware that they do. 3446. Are you aware whether the mud swells at all —There is no very disagreeable smell with it ; the men are used to it, and they never complain. 3447. Do strangers complain when they happen to come near you ?—No. 3448. (Mr. Harrison.) Is there any other subject upon which you can give information to the Commis- sioners?—There is not that I know of. It would be a great benefit to the navigation if ashes and dye wares could be stopped out. When Mr. Ellis the mayor was giving his evidence yesterday, he said that the water which was turned into the river cleared very soon about his works; it is shoally water where his spare water enters the river, but they are bringing the outlet of that drain lower down now. You will see the liquid boil up and rise into a froth a foot square, some more and some less. 3449. That is from the mud —Yes; when the sun is up and the gases begin to ferment. 3450. (Professor Way.) There is a smell at that time is there not 2–Yes, there is a smell—a pernicious smell. 3451. I did not quite understand you as to what you said with regard to the fish making the water impure?—They made the water smell fishey. 3452. Were there as many as all that ?–Yes; there were millions of what they call minnows; it was at the time when they were coming up the stream to spawn, about May and June. 3453. (Mr. Harrison.) What chemical works are there upon the Calder -There are some at Brig- RIVERSICOMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 95 house-–those are dye works—there are no chemical works till you get to Sowerby Bridge. 3454. What is made at Sowerby Bridge?—All sorts of dyeing wares, it is a very strong concern. 3455. They prepare there the different chemicals for the dyers?—Yes; they have some kind of weed which comes from Thorne which they use. - 3456. (Chairman.) Is it a kind of grass?—Yes. 3457. What do they use it for 2–For chemical works. 3458. (Professor Way.) Do you think that that is archil 2–I do not know what it is. 3459. Is it like water weed 2–Yes, but it is quite dry in bags. 3460. (Chairman.) Do you remember Ferry Bridge being built —I can remember the piles being left in so that the boats got aground. 3461. You remember the old piles being left in º- Yes. 3462. You do not remember the present bridge being built 2–No. wool made. 3463. (Professor Way.) In dredging do you find amongst the mud any quantity of short wool 2– No. 3464. (Chairman.) In the canal and the river are Formerly there was nothing but they much troubled with dead animals floating about —You can hardly go any length of the river but you will see two or three, 3465. When you were bank-walker did you ever make the men take out these dead carcases and bury them —Not the dead dogs, but there was sometimes a beast. I remember particularly one, and we had to apply to the constable to have it removed. 3466. You let dogs take their chance 2–Yes. 3467. Do not you think that it would have been all the better if you had ordered your men to take them out and bury them —Yes; I once passed through a lock at Manchester with 19 dead dogs in it --dogs about Manchester are very numerous. The witness withdrew. The witness subsequently sent to the Commissioners the following paper: IN 1852 Day, Nephew and Co. bought the field near Calder Wharf, and built a mill, to be worked by a steam engine, to have their water supply from the Calder; they have about 140 yards frontage to the Calder. The year following Messrs. Fox and Pickles bought some ground 50 yards frontage to the Calder about 50 yards higher up the Calder, and built a mill. Three years later Mr. Edward Hemingway bought 50 yards frontage to Calder and built a mill, and about this time a company bought the ground betwixt Day, Nephew and Co.'s mill and Fox and Pickles’ mill, 50 yards frontage to the Calder, and built a mill. Now about this time (1855) the spare water from the uppermost mill on the Calder was very dirty that the owners of these four mills agreed to make a culvert of brick to convey such dirty water below the Calder Wharf, but the culvert was only carried down to below Day, Nephew and Co.'s feed pipes, and at its outfall a great quantity of rubbish accumulated, so much so that it became requisite to dredge the rubbish out of the river, the owners of the culvert paid the expenses of the dredging. About this time James Howgate and Sons bought 50 yards frontage to the Calder, and the culvert extended to take the dirty spare water away from their mill. And now, in 1866, Mr. Ellis has made a culvert from below his feed pipe, 180 yards long, at 11.1s. per yard to the other culvert, to convey the dirty spare water from the five mills above. Also Messrs. Walker Brothers have made a culvert 150 yards to convey the dirty water to the Calder below their feed pipe, but in attempting to connect their culvert to Mr. Ellis's he stopped the work. This culvert, when finished, will convey the dirty spare water from seven mills for a distance of 830 yards, about half way betwixt the highest mill up the Calder, and Cook and Wormald's forebay cloughs. The outfall of the culvert is about 40 yards above the outfall of the Heckmondwike beck, which also is very much fouled. These two outfalls being in the bend or bite of the river Calder, the discharge from them does not mix properly with the main stream before entering Cook and Wormald's feeding or forbay cloughs or sluices, so that the fouled water is detrimental to the trade, that of the manufacture of white goods, blankets, &c. Now it seems very wrong to Cook and Wormald to have the water so much fouled, but bear in mind they just do the same as their neighbours with the water, and have done so ever since they bought the estate, about sixty years since; at that date the river water could be used for any purpose, no matter what. I see by this morning's paper (October 27) that the Rivers Commission have visited Mr. Ellis’s works at Ravensthorpe, and will have seen where the Heckmondwike beck and the culvert waters meet just in the bite of the river. The owners of the watermills and the Navigation Company are the owners of the river Calder, and the water wheel mills were the first to foul the water in the Calder, but not so much as to cause any inconvenience to parties generally using the Calder water till the Mungo Shoddy steam mills were built and the dyeworks on the banks of the river Calder, and then the old fishermen were the first to complain of the fish diminishing, so much so that they could not now make a living with the fishing rod, although they attended day and night. This would be about the year 1853 or 1854. It is a well known fact that the riverside land is always worth more per yard than the land half or one mile inland, although nearly on a level with river. But suppose that a law was made that any parties in possession of land no matter how far from the river should have a privilege (by paying a reasonable sum for damages) of laying two pipes parallel one with other one to supply the mill with water, and the other to return the spare water, and to be discharged into the river again (after complying with the rules yet to make) above the supply pipe, so that it will be to his benefit to return the spare water as clean as he possibly can, now such a law would be beneficial in a great many ways. 1st. There would be land for large subsiding tanks or reservoirs for the fouled water. 2nd. The mills could be farther apart, and in the event of fire the consequences would not be so serious as at Ravensthorpe with four mills in a space of only 200 yards frontage. It would partly regulate the price of land, particu- larly that nearly on a level with the river. No parties owning water power would like to let one drop of water pass their works except in the usual way, because as coal becomes dearer water power becomes more valuable. Well, then, what is to be done with sewage and fouled water? I do not know, but I say that every weir on any fouled stream should have a sufficient number of sluices to open in a flood to scour the bed of the river, also to be opened at stated times in dry seasons. Yours, &c. WILLIAM OATEs, Greenwood Lock, Mirfield, Oct. 30, 1866. To the Royal Commissioners for inquiring into the Pollution of Rivers, &c. &c. &c. 3rd. 4th. (Signed) Adjourned to Thursday next at half-past 10 o'clock, at Huddersfield. DEWSBURY. Mr. W. Oates. 23 Oct. 1866. 96 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. Huddersfield, Thursday, 25th October 1866, PRESENT : ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THORNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Professor John THOMAS WAY. Joseph TURNER, Esq. (Huddersfield), examined. 29.19%. (Chairman.) You are chairman of the Im- J. Turner, Esq. provement Commissioners of Huddersfield —I am. 25 Oct. 1866. 2920*. What number of Commissioners compose the board —18 for the town, besides three who are appointed by Sir John Ramsden. 2921*. How are the Commissioners for the town elected 3–By the ratepayers, and they stay in for three years; six go out, and six are elected by the ratepayers every year. 2922*. What is the population of Huddersfield – At the last census it was 23,379, but at present it is 37,150, that is for the township. 2923*. The population is increasing?—Yes, rapidly. 2924*. Are the boundaries of the Improvement Commissioners within the township —Yes, the boun- dary is 1,200 yards every way from the Market Place. 2925*. The township area is larger than that – Yes. The number of houses within the boundaries of the Commissioners is about 4,461, and the number of houses in the township is 8,000, the rating is about 8,593!., and from those houses most of the drainage is taken into the river. 2926*. What is the rateable value under the juris- diction of the Commissioners ?—About 98,000!. 2927*. Have you carried out main sewerage in certain streets —Yes; there are five outlets. 2928*. Where do they discharge themselves?—Into the river Colne, and partly into the canal. 2929*. Their contents find their way into the rivers and streams ?—They do, except that in several places in the suburbs a species of sewage irrigation is going on, but that is partially stopped now. 2930°. Have you, as Commissioners, had brought to your notice any impurities in the local streams and rivers ?—Yes, frequently. It has been stated that the pollution from various sources has been very injurious to health, but I do not think after all, looking at our returns for the last year, that the rate of mortality has been more than in other towns, nor indeed so great ; our rate of mortality has been the lowest of any, except Birmingham, Sheffield, Hull, and London. I do not believe that we suffer so much as people imagine. 2931*. You mean from any river pollution ?—Yes. 2932*. Do you think the trade suffers at all from the polluted state of the water —No doubt, one mill taking the water from another causes it to suffer. I can remember when the place consisted merely of small vil- lages, and only three steam engines were employed, but at the present time all the streams and tributaries around are crowded with mills of every description. The water of the river down towards Lockwood is as black as ink in the summer time from the dye waters and various other kinds of refuse, and that must be, I should think, a serious injury to trade. I think it is very desirable, and I think that the inhabitants gene- rally would be very glad to remedy that evil if possible; whether it is possible to do so without injuring manu- factures is a very serious question, and one which requires to be treated with great caution. We have two things to consider, first our health, and next our prosperity. Where a mill is built it enhances the value of property and gives employment to the inhabi- tants where there were poverty and want before, and it brings plenty. 2933*. Have you any power to prevent pollution of any kind in streams and rivers ?—I am not aware of anything of the sort. 2934*. Do you know whether it is the practice of any of the proprietors in or near Huddersfield to pass solid refuse into the rivers ?—Yes, many of them do so; formerly they threw everything in, even if they were excavating for buildings, all went into the rivers the ashes went into the rivers, and everything; but I think that at some mills they are now utilizing some of the refuse, and I hope in a short time, by some chemical process, a great deal of the evil will be prevented. 2935*. Is it necessary to the trade of the district that the river should be made the receptacle of solid material that could be carted away in other directions if the river did not exist—I think it is desirable to put a stop to that practice. 2936*. Prohibition of that practice would not destroy trade 2–No ; besides most of the ashes are now used for the roads, and also are ground as a substitute for sand ; ashes ground and mixed with lime make capital mortar. I have adopted ground ashes lately in cement upon a building, and I find they are firm and make a stronger cement than sand. 2937*. Supposing that one millowner upon this stream chose to say, I do not think it right to pass those causes of pollution into the river, and in carrying on my business I will do my best to avoid committing this evil, and suppose he went to considerable expense in carrying out his resolution, would his example be necessarily followed either above or below him if no external power existed to compel the adoption of such a course 2–I am afraid not without some Act of Par- liament. At the same time there is a disposition on the part of manufacturers in favour of an improvement. Many of them cannot wash the pieces in the river water now in consequence of its being so polluted, and there is a serious expense in going to springs for Water. 2938*. You think it would necessarily involve some imperative form of legislation ?—I do. 2939*. Whatever condition you are now in it would in a measure be hopeless to expect an improvement to arise from improved intelligence alone – Yes, where interest is concerned. Sometimes people will go on to the injury not only of themselves, but other people. 2940*. Have you an inspector of nuisances?—Yes. 2941*. Have you a medical officer of health –We have for the guardians. 2942*. And for the town –We have not, directly. 2943*. The Local Government Act gives you power to appoint a local officer of health, have you appointed such an officer –Not at present ; the guardians act for the parish and the township too. 2944*. Do you think that officers of health appointed by guardians do anything more than look to poor people after the disease has set in, or is it their duty to look to the causes that produce disease ?–A great deal more misery might be mitigated, I think. 2945*. Have you on hand now any plan for the extension of your sewerage and drainage 2–Yes, for a considerable extension. 2946*. I suppose new mills are being erected 2– Plenty. 2947°. Do the Commissioners supply water to the town 2–No ; the water supply belongs to another body of commissioners. 2948*. Commissioners or a company –Commis- sioners. They have no pecuniary aid whatever, they are commissioners for supplying the town with Water. 2949*. Has there been any talk of incorporating the town and amalgamating the commissioners ?—There has. 2950*. It has not been done yet 2—No. RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 97 2951*. Would it be an advantage, or otherwise, to have one local governing body possessed of large powers, including the powers of the Improvement Commissioners, and the powers of the Water Supply Commissioners ?—It is very desirable that they should be amalgamated. 2952*. Do you think that two distinct establishments can be worked more cheaply than one large one?— I do not know I am sure. 2953*. There would be much local opposition before you could carry out any amalgamation, would there not ?—I think so. We have not settled as to the extent of boundary that we want to include on each side of the water. There is a very populous neigh- bourhood from Mold Green and Lockwood, and they do not seem desirous to join us, but we think that at some future period they will be glad to go with us. 2954*. Those adjoining townships for the most part have set up their own local boards, and surveyors ? —Yes. 2955*. And their own clerks and collectors 2–Yes. 2956*. Their whole machinery, in fact —That is true. 2957*. I believe none of them have any independent public water supply 2–No. 2958%. Neither do the Huddersfield Commissioners extend their mains into the out-districts?—Partially they do. 2959°. To whom do the gasworks belong —To a private company. 2960*. (Mr. Harrison.) What was the population of the town of Huddersfield at the earliest period when you remember it —Very small, not above 10,000. 2961*. What was the condition of the river at that time —Nearly pure; there was very little pollution then in the stream : you might have seen fish in it, and you could see to the bottom of the river, but it was never exactly clear, there were always some mills above which polluted the water at certain times. 2962*. How long is it since the improved system of sewerage was carried out in the town 2–It was carried out in 1848. 2963*. Has it had a beneficial effect upon the health of the inhabitants —I should say so; we have not so many cases of typhoid, or scarlatina, or measles, as we used to have. 2964*. (Professor Way.) You have spoken of ashes from furnaces being used for making mortar ; what proportion of the whole quantity of ashes produced in the district could be used in the district in that way? —I cannot say. *2965*. Would it be a large proportion, say one-tenth of the whole ashes?—No ; but I have no doubt many discoveries will be made as to the use of waste pro- ducts when people once begin to look fairly into the matter. The witness withdrew. - John FAwcETT, Esq. (Huddersfield), examined. * 2966*. (Chairman.) You are chairman of the drain- age committee under the Commissioners ?—Yes. 2267*. How long have you been a member of the commission ?––Over three years. 2968%. Have plans for extending the drainage of the districts been laid before your committee –Yes. 2969*. And as chairman you have to see that they are properly submitted to the board before they are passed ?–Yes. 2970*. Have you recently had many plans laid before you for extending the drainage 2–In the last two years we have done a great deal of main sewerage. 2971*. Have you had plans under your consider- ation for utilizing the sewage, and for keeping it out of the rivers or streams ?—No. 2972*. Are you aware whether the sewage now causes any nuisance in the streams ?—I daresay it will do them no good. 2973*. Have you had any complaints from the manu- facturers below you ?—I am not aware of any. Mr. Abbey has prepared a report, which will embody all the evidence I and many others could give. 2974*. Mr. Abbey I hope has been working with your full concurrence —Yes. 2975*. You wish him to give as much information as he can at this inquiry —Yes. I believe Mr. Abbey has worked entirely free, there has not been any restraint whatever put upon him. 2976*. How long do you remember the streams near Huddersfield – A great many years, perhaps 35 years. 2977*. What condition are they now in compared with what they were when you first knew them 2– They are very much blacker and darker than they Wel’e. 2978*. Fouler —Yes. But I cannot say the foul- ness of the stream interferes with the trade of the district. The witness withdrew. Mr. JoHN BRook (Huddersfield) examined. 2979*. (Chairman.) Are you registrar of this dis- trict 2–Yes. 2980*. Are you registrar for the township of Hud- dersfield or for the borough –For the borough, and for the whole township ; my boundaries are about six miles in extent, from Paddock to Cooper's Bridge. 2981*. What population does your boundary include –In 1861 there were 34,784 persons within the borough boundary. - 2982*. The Parliamentary borough —Yes. 2983*...What is its area 2–3,900 acres. 2984*. What is its present population ?–37,000. 2985*. Have you the rate of mortality for any number of years —From 1851 to 1861 the average deaths were about 2:56 per annum. 2986*. That would be about 25% in 1,000 —Yes. 2987°. What has been the rate in the last year up to this time 2—I cannot give you that, I have it from 1861; it has been about 24 per cent. upon the population. 2988”. That is 22.5 or 22, in 1,000 —Yes. 2989*. That has been the average 2–Yes. 2990*. What has it been this summer ?—This summer Huddersfield has stood very well during the 17159.-2, prevalence of cholera and diarrhoea; we have had in this district only 21 cases of diarrhoea for the quarter ending 30th of June ; only one death from Asiatic cholera, and five from ordinary English cholera, upon the whole population, which is now 37,000. 2991*. According to these figures Huddersfield stands very favourably with regard to its mortality ? —It does. 2992*. Are you aware what the mortality has been at Leeds, Liverpool, and Manchester –Yes, and we stand about the lowest, except Hull. 2993*. How long do you recollect this district 2– The whole of my life. 2994*. Since you began to be registrar have you had any cholera epidemic in Huddersfield or the dis- trict round 2–In 1849 we had cholera here. 2995*. What was the mortality in that year 2–I have not ascertained that yet, but we had cholera in 1849 to a great extent. 2996*. Had you any cholera in 1854?–Not particu- larly, we had some cases both of fever and cholera. 2997". Do you remember when the Lodging House Act was established in Huddersfield 2–Yes. 2998*. What year was that ?—I think about 1854. N HUDDERS- FIELD. J. Turner, Esq. 25 Oct. 1866. J. Fawcett, Esq. Mr. J. Brook. 98 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. J. Brook. - 25 Oct. 1866. - 29.99%. Had it any beneficial effect upon the health of the people —I consider that the lodging-houses have been a very great benefit to the town. 3000%. Returns of deaths are sent in to you, and you register them for the localities where the deaths have taken place —Yes. 3001*. I suppose by reference to your books you can tell which district produces the largest per-centage of deaths 2–Yes, I could ascertain from the books, but they are not in my possession. - 3002*. Can you from memory tell us where the largest per-centage of deaths usually occurs, in what parts of the district —At Birkby and Fartown. 3003*. Are they near to or distant from the river ?— There is a small river that runs down at Birkby, and the place is very imperfectly drained, and very many private drains run into it from waterclosets. 3004*. Has the mortality increased since that arrangement took place —Yes, in the last four years. 3005*. Has there been a larger mortality in conse- quence of carrying out those private drains –Yes. 3006*. Is there any other place —Sheepridge is a very bad place, that is a couple of miles from here. 3007*. Is that near to a watercourse 2–Not Vºy near ; it is about a mile from the river Colne. 3008*. Then the river would have no effect-in pro- ducing that state of things —No. I should attribute it to the private drainage ; the district is not regularly drained at all. 3009°. Are there privies and cesspits there –Yes, and open cesspools, and complaints have been made of them. 3010*. Has there been an increase in the mortality there 2–Yes, upon that population. 3011*. Can you name any other district in a similar condition ?–Not now. 3012*. How long do you recollect these streams ?— Since I was a boy. 3013*. What condition were they in then as regards their purity?—I used to go into the river and catch fish. 3014*. What condition are they in now?—We have had no fish for years. 3015*. Are the streams discoloured?—Very much so. 3016*. Have you seen the streams polluted by solid materials being thrown in, such as ashes –Yes, we throw about 300 tons in ourselves every year. 3017*. Are you a manufacturer?—No, but I am executor of a mill proprietor. 3018”. What is the name of the firm –Kay's exe- cutors. In my report to you through Mr. Abbey I have put down 350 tons of ashes and refuse as an- nually thrown in by our mill from every source. 3019°. Would you consider it a very great hardship if some governing authority were established, and you were told that you must cease to throw those ashes in 2–Not if everyone was treated alike. 3020°. Would it be very costly to you to dispose of the refuse in some other way ?—We could dispose of part of it, and the ashes might, I think, be disposed of to some advantage. 3021*. At the present time are there any restrictions put upon you, do you see other people doing the same thing ; throw refuse into the river as the readiest way of getting rid of it —Yes. Sir John Ramsden gave us notice a year ago to cease putting ashes in, and we did so for some time, but as other people did not cease also we returned to the old practice. 3022*. Are you aware that the common law of Eng- land is sufficiently strong to prevent it —I have seen reports of that nature. 3023*. If Sir John Ramsden chose to put the com- mon law into force, he could stop you at once 2–Yes, 3024*. And he could stop a great many more?— He could not stop us consistently without stopping others. 3025*. It would not be considered friendly for one neighbour to enter an action against another ?—No ; very few manufacturers would do such a thing. 3026*. It would be better that some independent person should do it 2–Yes, Government had better do it at once, and serve us all alike. 3027*. What effect is produced upon the river by passing that refuse in 2–As to ashes I do not see that they do any great damage to the water for manu- facturing purposes; formerly we had river water, and now we buy it from the canal company for dyeing purposes. 3028*. Can you use the river water 2–No. 3029*. Supposing it were brought back to as good a state as the canal water, how much would you save by using river water without paying for it —We pay 25l. a year for the canal water. 3030”. Do you buy any from the waterworks people? —No, except for drinking purposes, and for brewing and so on. 3031*. Have you any wells upon your property – Yes. 3032*. Do you produce any quantity of water there for manufacturing purposes 2–We use the well water for one of the engines when short of water in summer time ; it is too hard for other purposes. - 3033*. If it is very hard, is it not also injurious for boiler purposes —Yes; we only use it when we are bound to do so. 3034*. Do you dye on your premises —Yes. 3035*. What becomes of the refuse water –It goes into the river. 3036*. What becomes of the refuse from the dye woods?—The woods are boiled in bags, I mean woods such as fustick, logwood, cam-wood, &c., and the solid refuse is emptied upon the coals and burned with them. 3037*. Have you any soap refuse from washing on your premises —No, we have not. 3038*. Did it ever occur to you to try whether the colouring matter could be discharged out of the dye water –It did some years ago when we had about 12 pairs of stocks, and if we had continued them we should have used the water and the refuse. 3039*. Have you any spare land on the premises attached to the mill 2–Yes. 3040*. Of what area —From two to three acres. 3041*. Is it grassland?—Yes, and one part is used for stowing the refuse. 3042*. What kind of refuse?—Rubble stones, ashes, lime, or anything else. 3043*. Where does the rubble stone come from ?— In digging foundations; we reserve that for road purposes. - 3044*. Instead of putting it into the river ?—Yes. 3045*. Has there been a large increase of mill pro- perty on the stream above you since your mills were established?—Yes. 3046*. Do you find that the increased number of mills above you has any effect upon the water –Of course the water is more fouled and more discoloured. 3047°. As the mills are added do you find the water in a worse condition?—Yes. 3048*, Do you ever find any inconvenience from ashes being sent in above you ?—Yes, ashes have been sent in to such an extent within the last eight or nine years that they have raised the bed of the river from 12 to 16 inches opposite our place. 3049*. Does that increase the flooding upon your premises *—Yes, we have been flooded, had our best mill stuck fast ; in extreme wet weather the place will be flooded. - 3050*. If you were to restore the river to the state it was in when you first knew it you would have to excavate the bed down to its original depth —Yes, and it would cost us a considerable sum ; we should have about 80 yards in length to do, perhaps rather In Ore. 3051*. Have you a settling pond attached to your mill?—Yes, two. 3052*. Of what area are they f—I think about 1,308 square yards together. 3053*. Do you ever cleanse them out 2–Yes. 3054*. How many times in a year 2–We flush one of them two or three times a year. -- RIVERS-COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 99 3055*. Do you do that on a Sunday?—Yes, from Saturday night at 2 o’clock till Sunday. 3056*. Where does the material you flush out go to? —Into the river. 3057*. Into the channel ?—Yes. 3058*. Of what does it consist 2–Refuse and sludge. 30.59%. Of mud that has come in from above —Yes. 3060*. Do you think that if the rivers were purified above you you would have less sludge to clean out? —Very considerably less. 3061*. This mud goes into the river, and it may go into other lodges situated below you?—Yes. 3062*. Then the millowners pass on the mud one to another all the way down the stream —Yes. 3063*. Have you any idea what it costs you to flush that mud out; how many men do you employ to do it? —About 12 or 14, or just as many as can work. 3064*. That I suppose may cost about 5/. or 10l. — Yes, more than that, about 15l. 3065*. Supposing you were forbidden to flush mud into the river, what could you do with it?—We must empty it by buckets; we should have to lay it in the yard and let it dry and lead it away; we have done that lately. 3066*. What does it cost you?—I have not entered into that. - 3067*. Would it be useful as manure?—I offered it to two or three farmers last year and this year, and they had some of it, but many of them have refused to take it. 3068*. You mean that they refused to cart it away ? —Yes, because it was not of sufficient value. 3069*. Supposing you were obliged to offer them money to take it away, would that induce them to take it?–Yes, they might be induced to take it for daily hire. 3070*. Would they not take it away for less, say 6d. a load 2–We have not tried them ; when the water was dried out of it we led it away ourselves. 3071*. Do the gentlemen above you who own mills flush generally at the same time, from Saturday to Sunday ?—Some of them flush ; at the Marsden reservoir they have been flushing for some time. 3072*. Is that a large one *-Yes. 3073*. What condition has that put the river in 2– We could not have that muddy liquid come into our reservoir, so we had to put our shuttle down and to let the stuff go down the river. 3074*. And your works are deprived of that amount of water 7–Yes, generally on Saturday afternoon and on Sunday. 3075*. Has that been any disadvantage to you?— Yes, it would have been, if we had let the water get into the reservoir, but we put the shuttle down to prevent it. 3076*. Have you considered the question of estab- lishing regulations to purify the river ?—I have not turned that over in my mind. 3077*. Do you think it advisable to continue in the present course, adding mill upon mill, without any regulation for the preservation of the water —No : individually I should say it would be better if we could have the water pure. The question is whether it would not affect the manufacturers in the district to a very great extent. 3078.*. You would not like manufacturers to be so injured that they could not carry on their trade?— No. 3079*. Have you heard that some forms of manu- facture have been driven from the district in conse- quence of the water being impure ?—Yes, for fancy dyeing we ourselves were; we used to be dyers of fancy colours, but the water was so foul that we could not carry that business on. 3080*. Was not that a serious injury to you?—No : because we turned our attention to darker coloured work. 3080a”. Would it not be disadvantageous if York- shire should get a bad character for its manufactures 2 —Yes. 3081*. Can it retain its reputation if it has to turn away its finer articles 2–It is a very small item that; fine colours compared with dark ones, 3082*. Might not the time come when the foulness of the water might seriously interfere with the pro- duction of dark colours?—I am not a manufacturer myself and cannot speak upon that. 3083*. (Mr. Harrison.) How long have you been registrar 2–28 years. 3084. In the return you are going to prepare will you be good enough to give us the population of Huddersfield for each 10 years 2–Yes; the population of Huddersfield in 1831 I can give you; it was 19,035. In 1841 it was 25,018; in 1851, 30,876; in 1861, 34,784. 3085*. How long is it since you recollect fish in the stream 2–When I was a boy. 3086%. How long after that did they remain in the streams about here —I think they remained till within 20 or 30 years ago. 3087”. Have manufactories increased in the district rapidly in that time —Yes. 3088*. More rapidly than previously?—Yes, much In Ore SO. 3089*. You stated that you gave about 25l. a year for water to the canal company —We have either a 2-inch or 21's-inch pipe from the canal. 3090*. Can you draw as much water as you please ? —We could have it running in to-day if we required it at a pressure of something like four feet with that pipe. 3091*. For how many hours in a day do you draw it?—About 10 hours a day. 3092*. Can you give us the weight of wool that passes through your hands to be dyed in the course of a year 2–We sublet our works, but I can ascertain that if you wish it. 3093*. You stated that some time ago you thought of endeavouring to purify the water — A few years ago we had some stocks, and having stocks we used a great deal of soap ; then we thought of making these reservoirs, and to sell or use the refuse of the soap and oil for manure. 3094*. It did not deal with the refuse colouring matter of the dye 2–It did not. - 3095*. (Professor Way.) You have stated that you use the water from the canal for your dyeing purposes? —Yes. 3096*. And for washing 2–Yes. 3097°. Do you use the water from the stream in your boilers ?—Yes. 3098*. Is it good for that purpose 2–Yes, better than the other water. - 3099%. Does it crust the boilers ?–No. 3100*. Does the dye stuff interfere with the boilers? —Not enough goes in to affect the boilers 3101*. It is soft water, is if not ?—The river water is soft on account of the soap refuse and the dye wares it receives. Those destroy the iron substance in the Water. 3102*. What is the name of the stream on which your mill is situated 2–The Colne. - 3103*. (Mr. Harrison.) For manufacturing purposes the canal company are really a water company –We find their water advantageous for light-coloured goods, for dyeing and washing purposes. HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. J. Brook, --- The witness withdrew. 25 Oct. 1866, 100 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. J. H. Abbey. 25 Oct. 1866. - Mr. JoHN H. ABBEY (Huddersfield) examined. 3104*. (Chairman.) You are surveyor to the Hud- dersfield Commissioners ?—Yes. 3105*. How long have you been their surveyor – About four months. 3106*. Had you been connected with them pre- viously --Yes, 10 years ago ; I was their surveyor for three years. 3107*. Was your father surveyor in this district – Yes. 3.108”. Have you been brought up under him as a surveyor from your boyhood —Yes. 3109. Are you well acquainted with the district round Huddersfield, as depicted on the Ordnance sheets –I am. 3110°. At my request have you drawn up some information in detail —Yes, I have. This map con- sists of 6-inch contour ordnance sheets, put together and coloured for this purpose. It shows the town of Huddersfield and the rivers flowing into and through Huddersfield from their sources down to the junction with the Calder. - 3111”. At what point 2–At Colne Bridge. 3112*. What are the names of the subsidiary streams, beginning with the lowest one P-The first is Lee's Beck, running up towards Kirk Burton, Shepley, and Shelley. Shelley is the largest village on the stream. The next stream is the Pennydyke, which runs through Mold Green towards Almondbury. The next is the river Holme, which is the principal tributary to the Colne ; the Holme runs through Lockwood, Berry, Brow, and Honley, Thongsbridge, and up to Holmfirth and Holme. 3113*. What are the branches of the Holme 2–The principal one is the Mag Brook, which runs through Netherton up to Meltham. 3114*. Is that the stream upon which some intended reservoirs were to be put for the supply of Hudders- field and some of the intervening townships ?—Yes. 3.115*. What are the names of the principal reser- voirs on the Holme 2—There is the Bilberry, the Holme Styes, and the Boshaw Whams. The next is Newmill stream; there are several mills upon it, and it rises above Hepworth. TheColne runs through Huddersfield, Crossland Moor, Paddock, Slaithwaite, and Marsden, up to the Standedge Hills. 3116*. Does it go to the divisional line of the counties of Yorkshire and Lancashire 2–Within about a mile from it. 3117*. Have you depicted on the map the area of the jurisdiction of the Huddersfield Commission in that half circle 2–Yes. 31.18%. Do you also show the present outlets into the stream 2–Yes. No. 1 is the Grove Bridge, No. 2 is the Aspley outlet, No. 3 is called Long Bridge, No. 4 is called Shore Foot mill-tail goit ; No. 5 is Long- royd Bridge, No. 6 is the intended outlet to drain the Hebble Beck. Those are all. 31.19%. I believe you have tabulated some information for us?–Yes. I have. (The same was handed in, and is printed at the end of the evidence of the witness.) 3120°. (Chairman.) You have some other informa- tion in a written form 2–I have some information as to the list of townships forming the watershed to the river Colne. The total population is 130,332, 67,152 acres form the area of the watershed, and the annual rateable value is 364,312/. 3121*. (Mr. Harrison.) That is the whole of the watershed which we see upon that plan 2–Yes. 3122*. (Chairman.) What is the other information which you have 2–As to the quantity of excavations passed into the river. In the town of Huddersfield and the neighbouring village of Lockwood the quantity of excavations thrown into the river is beyond con- ception, and I feel quite safe in the assertion that in Kingsmill Lane alone hundreds of thousands of tons have been carted into the river. 3123*. Within what period —Within the last 20 years. Even now a considerable breadth of land has been reclaimed, if I may use the term, from the river by the consolidation of the excavations thrown in- that is, in Kingsmill Lane ; other parts are washed away. In the township of Lockwood for a great num- ber of years back the whole of the excavations of the village proper were shot into the stream, and at the present time great tips of spoil are to be seen positively choking the course of the stream; and to such an ex- tent has been this practice, that the land on the side of the stream belonging to Sir John William Ramsden, Bart., has been washed away piecemeal until a very considerable inroad has been made into his estate in that locality. In Lockwood filth, garbage, road scrap- ings, broken crockery, and spoil of every description find their way into the river. Time after time have the authorities endeavoured to check this practice by erecting a fence along the side of the river, but as often as it has been erected so often has it been knocked down, and the practice resumed. Consider- able numbers of new buildings have been erected in the village, the excavations from which I have no doubt, at a moderate computation, would amount in the aggregate to 6,000 tons for the last 10 years. 3124*. And all this is carted into the river ?—Yes. At most of the mills on the streams it is the practice to throw the ashes into the river; and where there is a sufficient current of water to carry them away, one is almost certain to find a cinder tip if there is a mill in the same neighbourhood. The local boards and surveyors of highways in these localities have begun to lead away the ashes, and use them for the roads, but as yet only to a limited extent. To some trifling degree the ashes are used for mortar and asphalte. I am quite confident that but few years will elapse before ashes will be found too valuable to be thrown into the river; at any rate, numbers of places may be found in which to store them until wanted, instead of depo- siting them in the streams. As to excavations, these might be used for making new streets, and for raising low-lying lands to a proper elevation, to allow of good drainage. A great source of pollution is created by dyers, nearly the whole of whom discharge their dye liquor into the stream. The water used by Messrs. Kenyon and Armitage for dyeing and scouring is from private reservoirs, the supply to which has been ob- tained by driving or draining in their own properties, and the water running down the stream is only used for condensing and water power. I find that on most of the streams great numbers of the millowners and dyers have provided artificial means of supply instead of using the natural stream; and to such a great ex- tent has this been carried out, that comparatively few are dependent upon the rivers for their supply; and therefore by irrigating the land, or in any way keeping the foul water out of the river, the natural stream would not be sensibly diminished. I have prepared a tabulated statement showing the mills and manufac- tories on the banks of the Colne and its tributaries. I have found it exceedingly difficult to obtain anything like an approximate idea of the quantity of refuse, fluid or solid, which is turned into the rivers, not a manufacturer, millowner, or dyer appearing to have any notion whatever of the weight or quantity of refuse sent out from his premises; but a very evident desire has been shown by a great majority to afford information, and only in one or two instances has it been withheld, and in such cases by parties who are the worst pollutors of the streams. I find in many cases that the quantity of dye liquor sent out from single dyeworks amounts to 1,000,000 gallons per annum. The town of Huddersfield, within the limits of the Improvement Act, a distance of 1,200 yards from the centre of the market-place, all drains into the river Colne. There is no regular system of sewerage, and at present the sewage is discharged into the river at five different outlets. Another large sewer is about to be constructed in the Hebble Valley, which, when completed, will make a sixth outlet. The population within the limits is 23,379, occupying 4,461 houses, averaging nearly 5% per house. There are a great number of waterclosets, the contents of which of course find their way into the river ; and it is the opinion of RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 101 many that the mill dams on the stream below Hud- dersfield are the receptacles for the contents of those waterclosets, in consequence of which the dreadful stench caused by the fermentation of the mud in hot weather is almost unbearable. No system of venti- lation has yet been put into execution, and great com- plaints are made by the inhabitants residing in the upper part of the town about the want of ventilation. 3125*. You mean in the sewers ?—Yes. The amount expended in the construction of sewers from the adoption of the Act in 1848 is 8,2811. It would not be difficult to intercept the several outfalls, and carry the whole of the sewage of the town beyond its limits; and I do not think it would require a greater sum than 5,000l. Of course that is merely a rough estimate. The number of mills, manufactories, dyeworks, and chemical works on the streams amount to 211. The number of townships comprising the water shed amount to 33, and I have prepared a tabulated statement of the population, area, and rateable value of each. Most of the villages on the banks of the stream drain directly or indirectly into the river, as generally speaking the fall is such as to carry the sewage very quickly into the stream, before it has the opportunity of percolating through the soil into the ground. Paddock, on the banks of the Colne, has laid down a system of pot-pipe drainage; and Lock- wood proper, with a population of about 5,000, has during the last year completed a system of sewerage into the Holme, at a cost of about 2,500/.; and Berry Brow, on the same stream, with a population of about 2,000, has also a system of drainage into the Holme. There are several other populous villages on the rivers which have not laid down any special system, but which nevertheless drain into the rivers, viz., Mold Green, Milnesbridge, Slaithwaite, Golcar, Marsden- on-the-Colne, Honley, Thongsbridge, Holmfirth, and Holme-on-the-Holme, as well as many other small hamlets which may be better observed by reference to the map. There are about 18 miles of roads and streets, paved, macadamised, within the area of the Huddersfield Improvement Act, including those not paved, of which there are three miles. 3126*. Are you surveyor of turnpike roads 2—I am. 3127*. Do any surveyors of highways tip road scrap- ings into streams when it is convenient —In many instances they do. . 3128*. Do they do so in Lockwood 2–To a very considerable extent. 3129*. (Mr. Harrison.) Are the manufactories men- tioned in your table the whole of the manufactories within that area —Ali that are immediately upon the banks of the stream. There are others away from the stream; in Huddersfield, for instance, there are manu- facturers who carry on their business, but their refuse water is turned down the public sewers. 3.130”. Still it finds its way into the river ?–Yes. 3131*. To make the information complete I think that we ought to have those particulars if possible 2– You shall have them. 3132*. You have mentioned Messrs. Hardy and Armitage and Kenyon's works —I have. 3133*. Did you observe the water as it came off the irrigated land 2–As it was put on I noticed it. 3134*. But not as it came off?—No ; there was no opportunity of seeing that. 3135*. Why not ?—Because there was no particular place where the water left the irrigated land. 3136*. There was no drain which collected the water 2–No. 3137*. (Chairman.) It was absorbed 2–Yes. 3.138”. If it came out at all it came out in springs? —Yes. 3139*. (Mr. Harrison.) If there were mills below those works dependent upon water power, might not the owners of those mills object to the application of the water to the land in that way —Do you mean in consequence of the loss of water 3140*. Yes?—No ; because the water which they use for dyeing is spring water, which they collect upon their own properties, and which has not been in any way taken out of the stream. 3141*. Had you not any opportunity of seeing whether the water was purified by passing over the land 2–I had not. The water as it was pumped upon the land was about the colour of ink; the crops o grass grown were very good indeed; and Mr. Kenyon is prepared to come here and give evidence to prove the success of this irrigation scheme. 3142*. (Professor Way.) If you heard that the overflowing of the Calder containing these dye refuses had injured land, and did not do so 20 years ago, you would hardly refer the difference to the dye stuffs – I think that it is just possible that refuse from the dyeworks alone might be injurious to the land. - 3143*. I speak of the river Calder. We had evidence given us at Dewsbury that the overflowing of the river of late years has been injurious to the land in places where the river used to overflow without any objec- tionable influence ; would you refer that to the dye- ing —I should imagine that it would be attributable to the dyeworks. 3144*. Still you say that with these very causes the refuse has been poured on to the land with great ad- vantage to the land –The dye refuse and the soap combined. I do not consider that any good is done to the land by the dye liquor; but the land takes the good and the bad together. 3.145°. If there is any injurious effect from the dye- woods upon the grass the action of the soap would not prevent that injurious effect, would it 2–That is more a question for a chemist. 3146. But the crops were not only not injured, but were greatly benefited 2–Yes. 3147°. (Mr. Harrison.) Are the soapsuds through- out this district generally collected and utilized by Mr. Teall's process —I believe that they are in most of the mills and works. 3148*. Have the returns which you have given us been submitted to the different manufacturers for cor- rection ? – These returns are compiled from forms which I have sent out to each manufacturer to fill up in his own way. 3149*. So that they are their own returns?—Just so. 3150*. Several of the villages which you have men- tioned have carried out systems of sewerage —Yes, into the river. 3151*. From your knowledge of the district is there generally convenience adjoining those villages for sewage irrigation ?—I think not. 3152*. (Chairman.) You would have no such conve- nience in Lockwood —No. 3153*. Nor in Newsome 2—No. 3154*. It must be below if it can be anywhere?— Yes. 3155*. (Mr. Harrison.) Below Huddersfield is there any extent of land suitable for irrigation, I mean be- tween Huddersfield and the Calder 2–The land in that neighbourhood is very valuable; it is possible that land might be found, but not to a very great extent. 3156*. Then do you think that the sewage of the whole district cannot be easily applied to the land without pumping to the higher levels 2–I think not. 3157*. (Professor Way). Would the fact of the land being valuable preclude its being made more valuable by sewage 2–It is just possible that the land in that neighbourhood may be required for building and mill purposes. 3158". If the land is valuable for agricultural pur- poses is there any objection to its being made more valuable for such purposes?—Certainly not. 3159°. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you, throughout the re- turn which you have given us, dot down the source of the water supply for each of those mills?–Do you mean the private supply 3160*. Yes, whether it is from reservoirs erected by water companies, or from the canal, or from water upon the land 2–I can do so certainly. 3161*. (Professor Way.) You are not responsible for these returns —No ; in most cases the dimensions HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. J. H. Abbey. 25 Oct. 1866. N 3 102 RIVERS COMMISSION :--MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. J. H. Abbey. 25 Oct. 1866. have been taken by me in the presence of the mill- OWIle1’S. 3162*. The printed returns have been filled up by the manufacturers themselves?–Yes, or in their presence. 3163*. (Chairman.) Are you surveyor to certain turnpike trusts?—Yes. 3164*. Do those roads for any considerable length drain towards and into the streams of the district 2– Some of them do at different places, but it would be very difficult for me to state the extent. 3165*. Is regular and constant attention to those roads, so as to keep them in order, the truest economy? —Yes, there is no doubt of it. 3166*. If you take off the mud as it is formed and water the roads when they are dusty, have you not less material to flow off in the shape of mud, and you get the road in a better condition ?—You do. 3167*. And it lasts longer ?—It does. 3168*. With respect to the sewerage which has been laid out by the Commissioners, has it been entirely laid out upon principles of your own, or did you find a system of sewers laid down when you came into office? —There is no general system of sewerage; it has all been done piecemeal. 3169*. Are your sewers at present ventilated upon any principle?—No. 3170*. Do you know whether the parties living in the higher districts of the town have at any time suf- fered inconvenience from foul gases getting back again into their houses?—Constant complaints have been made from the upper parts of the town on account of these bad smells. 3171*. Have you been called upon in any instance to attempt to remedy that state of things, I mean in the drains of any separate houses —Yes. 3172*. By what means have you attempted to over- come the nuisance?—Simply by disconnecting the sink pipe from the drain outside, so that the air might take away any bad smell which came up the pipe and would necessarily have gone into the building. I have always been of opinion that there should be manholes, and more frequently. At the present time we have no opportunity of inspecting a drain except by means of some very indifferent manholes which we have, and which are generally covered up with stones about six inches thick. 3173*. And then you must break the road and raise the flag 2–We must break the road and raise the flag, and there is a great deal of unnecessary labour which might be economised. 3174*. Have you prepared a plan showing the sewerage which would be required for the township or the whole of the area 2–I have not. 3175*. Are there many private streets not yet sewered?—Yes, many. 3176*. And many houses which are not drained 2– Yes, a good many. There are some cesspools in the town, but I believe not very many. 3177*. (Mr. Harrison.) As to the returns, you have stated that they are the returns from the manufac- turers ?–Yes, they are their returns. What passed in each case was something of this kind: a mill owner would say to me, “I have three pans here, “ and these pans I discharge once a day, you can “ take the dimensions of them and work out your own “ calculation,” and that is the only thing which I have done. 3178*. (Chairman.) If they fill and empty those pans more or less frequently than you have been led to believe you are not responsible for that ?—I am not. 3179*. And the number of times of filling and empty- ing will vary 2–Yes. I do not think it is possible for any millowner to tell the exact number of times which he fills these pans in a year. 3180*. (Professor Way.) I had an impression that you had sent out a printed paper to be filled in 2– That is so; this paper is exactly as it has been filled up by the millowners, with the exception of the figures in pencil. All that I am responsible for is for the measurement of the pans and for the calculation of the quantity of water sent out from those pans, made from data sent me by the manufacturers as to how many pans were used and how often they were discharged. 3181*. They gave you that verbally 2–Certainly. 3182*. Did you take notes of the figures, or did you calculate them on the spot ?—I could not well calculate them on the spot, I calculated them in my office afterwards. - 3183*. (Mr. Harrison.) Are the labouring classes in Huddersfield supplied from the waterworks –They are; of course that is a general supply for the town. 3184*. (Chairman.) Is the new sewer of which you have been speaking intended to drain the district which Mr. Brook, the registrar, mentioned as producing the greatest mortality ?—It is for the purpose of draining the northern part of Huddersfield which lies in the Hebble Valley. Birkby is beyond the limits of the Huddersfield Improvement Act. At the pre- sent time the stream is polluted by owners and oc- cupiers of houses and mill property above in the neighbourhood of Birkby and Lindley to such an extent that the Commissioners thought that they were justified in putting down this sewer, to intercept foul water from going into that part of its course which lies within their own limited jurisdiction, and that then they would have a perfect right to say to the owners of property above, “You must take out yours also in order to purify the stream.” 3185*. If in the case of the out-townships the fall of the land is in or through Huddersfield, do you think that there would be any difficulty in treating with the Commissioners for an outfall for their sewers ? —Not any. I take it that the sewer has been put down with an express understanding on the part of the Commissioners that by an arrangement the whole of the district coloured pink, which is beyond their district, should be drained into that sewer. 3186*. What fall will your sewer have 2–At the rate of 69 feet per mile. 3.187°. That of course is a fall which will send a rapid current through the sewers, and if properly arranged you do not anticipate that much dirt will accumulate 2–Not any, if the pipes are properly laid. 3188*. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you heard the evi- dence this morning as to the purity of the Colne in former years, and as to its condition at present 2–Yes. 3189*. Do you consider that the impurity of the stream has injuriously affected the poor of the town of Huddersfield –It has affected them in this respect, the millowners have fouled the stream which was the natural supply of the district. The water, I believe, was used originally by many people for culinary pur- poses; and while the millowners have taken away this natural water supply from these streams, they have not of themselves provided an artificial supply for those poor inhabitants, but those inhabitants have had to pay water rents for the water supply which has been issued artificially in lieu of the one taken away from them by the millowners. 3190*. And that artificial water supply on some occasions is insufficient 2–It is very limited, I believe. 3191*. (Chairman.) Is it a fact that rivers are ever to any very great extent used by the inhabitants upon their banks —I think that they were originally. 3192*. Do you not think that people would take the springs and wells in preference —I feel quite sure that the people on the rivers formerly used the water repeatedly for culinary purposes, the small farmers invariably used the water for their cattle to drink, and they cannot do so now at all. Now, when a small farmer has his supply from the town he has to pay a water rent which previously he had not to do. 3193*. (Mr. Harrison.) Then that is one fair argu- ment among others for the prevention of the pollution of the Colne 2–I think so. 3194*. (Professor Way.) Is it the case generally that cattle cannot drink the water —They cannot drink it. 3195*. Or the water of any of these streams ?—In RIVERS COMMISSION :–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, L03 the out districts towards the sources of course they can, but anywhere within a mile of Huddersfield it is impossible. 3196*. (Chairman.) What is your opinion as to the bed of the river Holme?—I remember very well, when I was quite a boy, seeing people repeatedly bathe in that river, and I have seen two or three very narrow escapes from drowning on account of the depth of water. 3197*. At what point 2–Near to the Dungeon Mill, belonging to Mr. Wrigley. A man would now have very considerable difficulty in finding sufficient water to come up to his knees, and where it used to be a nice sandy bottom it is mud. 3.1984. You attribute that to the solid matter thrown in from above 2–Yes. 3199*. Are you aware of what becomes of the scrapings from the different roads of the district, or any portion of them abutting on the river ?—When the scrapings have not been suitable for plasterers or for sand, or anything of that sort, they have found their way into the river. I am myself in a great measure responsible for that, because it is the cheapest way of getting rid of them, and I have naturally tried to get rid of them as economically as possible. 3200*. And you have had them taken into the stream —I have. 3201*. Have the men under your charge carefully tipped the road scrapings on to the margin of the stream —They have until lately; they are not doing it now. I have put a stop to it; that applies to such roads as I am the surveyor of. On many of the highways it is the custom to put the road scrapings into the river, because the peculiar kind of material which is used for road making in those localities is pot suitable for plasterers after it is scraped off. Where free sandstone is used the scraping from the road is used by plasterers; but where we use dross, and material of that kind, it is not so much sought after by plasterers. 3202*. Then the highway surveyors as well as yourself use the nearest stream or watercourse as a tip 2–That has been too much the case, I believe. 3203*. Do you think that the bed of the river has generally risen of late years?—I know that it has of late years, all the way from the mill of Mr. Wrigley at Dungeon to the confluence of the Colne. I should think that the whole of that portion of the river during the last 20 years has been raised two feet. 3204*. Has such rise of the bed in any instances caused flooding to mill property and adjoining land 2–Yes, Mr. Brook gave evidence this morning as to Folly Hall Mill; the lower floor of that mill will very soon be untenable if the river continues to rise as it has done in the last five or six years. Then there is Mr. Beaumont Taylor, who has a log-wood grinding mill on the river Holme in the township of Lockwood; he some years ago suffered very consider- able damage from the increased level of the river, and the increased level of the water was accounted for by the increased elevation of the river's bed. His place was flooded something like two feet; if the river's bed had kept to its original level those two feet of water would have kept out of his mill. 3205*. Do dyeware principally discolour the river water?—Yes. 3206*. If they were taken out it would be com- paratively clear 2–It would. 3207*. (Mr. Harrison.) You have said that a great deal of the refuse from the roads has hitherto been put into the river; do you think that it would be a proper thing if that practice were to be stopped summarily P —Yes, I think that it is very proper that it should be stopped. 3208”. (Chairman.) There are scores of miles of highways in the county of Yorkshire where the refuse scrapings from the roads must be dealt with otherwise than by being thrown into the streams, because no stream is near –Quite so; and in this neighbourhood I think that there are acres of land which might be very much improved by being raised to a higher level, I mean improved for drainage and building purposes. 3209”. (Mr. Harrison.) From your knowledge is the refuse of the roads useful for agricultural pur. poses —Not so much for agricultural purposes. 3210*. Do you think that road scrapings or slag are not useful upon grass land 2–A great quantity of slag is used here which it would not be at all advisable to put on to land. The witness withdrew. HUDDERS- FIELD Mr. J. H. Abbey. 25 Oct. 1866. -- REPORT (referred to supra, Question 3119°) of Mr. John H. ABBEY, Surveyor to the Commissioners of the Huddersfield District. RIVER COLNE. Description of ~ --- - - - No. of - Description of Refuse - - - - - -- Name of Mill, &c. Owner or Occupier. Description of Work. Hands. |w º: º, whº,º turned into Stream. Quantity of Solid. Quantity of Liquid. Remarks. Colne Bridge Mills - - || Thomas Haigh & Sons - - - - - - - - - - - None - - - | None - - None. Woodhouse Mills - - George Benton - . Dyeing - - - 3 Water and steam - - - Dye water - - - - - - - || 7,200 gallons a week. Do. - - Joseph Hoyle & Son - Cloth finishing - - 38 D O 2r. 0 Washing off water, ashes, and Ashes from 2,000 tons 16,800 gallons a week. Do. - - Geo. Hopkinson & Son and Woollen manufacture - 120 O. a. 2r. Up : mud from reservoir. of coal per year and others. 1,613cubic yards of mud once in two years. - Bradley Mills - - James Brooke & Sons - || Woollen manufacture - 200 Do. - - - - - Dye and scouring liquor - - - 6,752 gallons a week. Do. - - Chas. Atkinson & Co. - Milling and finishing 50 Do. - | None but Forebay - | Dye liquor, soke, and ashes | - - - || 2,587 gallons a week. Do. - - E. and C. Eastwood - || Woollen and cotton dyeing- 20 Do. - 337,500 gallons - || Dye refuse and ashes - 13,000 cubic feet of 4,806 gallons a week. mud in 14 years. Do. - - Sykes, Hale & Bell - - || Spinning - - - 150 Do. - Forebay36,450 gallons. None - - - | None y - None - - Grove Dyeworks - - John Pollard - - || Cotton dyeing - - 12 Steam - None - - || Dye liquor and ashes - Two loads a week - 25,200 gallons a week. Tanfield Mills - - || William Learoyd & Sons - || Woollen manufacture - 250 Do. - 91,125 gallons - | Dye liquor - - - - - - - |225,000 gallons a week. Town Lane Mill - - Jas. Learoyd & Sons - Do. and yarns - - 250 Do. - 22,443 gallons - Scour water, ashes, suds, and 100 tons a years. - refuse from waterclosets. - - Canal Bridge Mills - - || Ramsden, Learoyd, & Holroyd Woollen manufacture - - Do. - | None - - Dye liquor and ashes. - - Prospect Dyeworks - - Heppenstall, Brothers - || Woollen and cotton dyeing - 31 Do. 108 square yards - | Dye liquor - - - - Chemical Works -- - Read Holliday - - Chemicals - - - - Do. - - - - - | None - - - - - Turn Bridge Dyeworks - || Benjn. & John Hey - - || Woollen and woollen dyeing 16 Steam - - | None - - | Dye water - * - - - - - - 28,086 gallons a week. Redhill Dyeworks - - John Burgess & Son - || Dyeing and bleaching - 75 Do. - | None - - Shumac, logwood, lime, chlo- 366 tons a year - 104 gallons a week. ride of lime & sulphuric acid. - Aspley Dyeworks - - Greenwood Brothers - || Woollen dyeing - - 12 Water - None - - || Dye liquor and ashes - - - -- - 5,700 gallons a week. Aspley Print Works - - Dewhirst Brothers .. - Calico printing - - - - - - - - - | None. - - King's Mills - - - || William C. North - - || Woollen yarn spinning - 100 Water and steam | None - - | None. - - Do. - - || Brierley & Co. - - | Flax - - - - - - - - - - - | None. - - Colne Road Foundry - Henry Brook - - Castings - - - 30 Steam - - | None - - Ashes. - - Colne Road Dyeworks - || William Hudson - - || Wool dyeing - - 12 Do. - - | None - - Dye water. - - - 31,824 gallons a week. Britannia Mill - - Joseph Hopkinson - - Cotton and woollen manu- 400 Do. - - | None - - Scouring water - - - - - - 4,308 gallons a week. facture. Engine Bridge Mill and dye- || Edmund Eastwood - - || Woollen manufacture and 120 Water and steam | None - - || Dye and scour refuse and Ashes from 1800 tons works. dyeing. ashes. of coal a year. 750,000 gallons a week. Engine Bridge Finishing Haigh Brothers - - Cloth finishing - - 8 Steam - - | None - - | Ashes - - - | Ashes from 3 tons orks. coal per week. - Folly Hall Mills - - Joseph Kayes’ exors. - Carding and cloth finishing 420 Do. - - 219,375 gallons - Ashes and dye water - Ashes 380 tons a year and 435 cubic feet 169,938 gallons a week. of mud. Isthmus Mills - - Saml. Hiley & Son - - Cloth finishing - - 20 Steam - None - - Washing water and a few ashes - - Upperhead - - - || Lockwood & Keighley - || Woollen card manufacture - 200 Do. - - €30,000 gallons - | None. - -- - Longroyd Mills - - Starkey Brothers - - || Woollen manufacture - 600to'700 Do. - - 750 square yards - | Dye water. - - Birk House Lane Dyehouse - Joseph Walker & Sons - || Wool dyeing - - 14 Do. - - | None - - Dye and washing water and - - ashes. - - - 24,000 gallons a week. Pedley Mills - - - W. & H. Crosland & others - || Manufacturing and dyeing - 56 Do. - - Oa. Ir, Op. Dye and scour water. - - Mill Gate - - - John & Joel Crowther - Cloth finishing - - 28 Do. - - Water from Jas. Washing water. - - - Crosland's reservoir Paddock Mills - - Jas. Crosland & Son - || Woollen manufacture 120 Water and steam Oa. 2r. Op. Dye and scour water and - - - 13,572 gallons a week. ashes. Longroyd Mills - - || Edwd. Fisher & Co. - Silk spinning - - 300 Do. - || None - - Water from boiler-house. - - Crosland Moor Mills - Geo. Crosland & Sons - || Woollen manufacture - 340 Steam - - 800 square yards - || Dye and scour water. - - Mark Bottoms Mill – - || Tyne Crosland - - Cloth finishing - - 30 Do. - - | None - - Washing water. - - F 5 REPORT of Mr. John H. ABBEY.—RIVER COLNE–continued. Name of Mill, &c. Owner or Occupier. Description of Work. No. of Hands. Description of Power used Water or Steam. What Reservoir Description of Refuse turned into Stream. Quantity of Solid. Quantity of Liquid. - Remarks. i - Lees Mill - Mark Bottoms Mill Mill. Lower Bank House ~! Upper Bank House Union Mill - Bank House Mill Quarmby Mill Milnsbridge Tannery Bottom Hall Hill Spring Gateſ)ye and Chemica Works. Holm Vale Dyeworks Colne Vale Mills Britannia Mill Ramsden Mill Ramsden Mill Low westwood Lower Mill Upper Mill Do. Albion Mill - Do. - Victoria Mill - Heath House Mill Brook Mill - Spa Mill and Clough House Mill. Water Side Mill and Shaw Carr Mill. Do. - Upper Mill - Mellor's Dyeworks Kiln Hill - Crumble Mill Slaithwaite - Marsden - Cellars Clough Wood Bottom Mill Upper End Mill New Mill - John Firth, Sons, & Co. Armitage Brothers - Joseph Dyson - Robert Beaumont - Thomas Hirst & Sons Chas. Denham - Shaw & Taylor - Dawson Brothers Dawson. Haigh & Heaton - Jas. Mellor & Son - Shaw & Shaw - Ramsden & Son - Ramsden Mill Co. - Thomas Shaw - David & Chas. Shaw Shaw & Bray - Joe. Harrison & Co. Geo. Mallinson & Sons Ainley & Taylor & others John & Richard Ainley George Haigh - John & Saml. Horsfall. J. S. Scholes’ exors. John Farrar - Exors. of J. & W. Haigh John Mellor - Meal & Quarmby - Hy. Hopkinson - Crowther & Sons - Do. - Dowse & Collins - Hirst, Stockwell, & Hirst John & J. Farrar - Saml. Bowers’ exors. and D. { Ma Woollen manufacture Woollen manufacture Woollen scribbler - Woollen manufacture Leather tanning - Woollen and cotton Wool chemicals. nufacturing dyeing and R. logwood grinding. dyeing and dyers' Cotton and woollen dyeing: Woollen manufacture Cotton spinning - Woollen manufacture Do. Woollen scribbling - Woollen manufacture Do. Do. Cotton spinning - Scribbling and spinning Woollen manufacture Wool and cotton dyeing Cotton dyeing - Woollen manfuacture Scribbling and weaving Scribbling and woollen Cotton spinning & doubling Woollen manufacture Scribbling and fulling 200 290 105 18 30 30 11 20 172 70 10 150 33 18 Steam - - Water and steam Steam - - Water - - Water and steam No power - ater - - Steam - - Steam - - Steam - - Water and steam Do. - Water and steam Water and steam Do. - Water - - Steam - - Do. - - Do. - - Water - - Do. - - Water and steam Water - - Do. - - Room. None - la. 2r. Op. None - Oa. 2r. Op. None - None - 340,312 gallons 154,862 gallons None - None - Nothing but grit 227,812 gallons Do. Oa. 1r. Op. Oa. 2r. Op. 918,843 gallons 78,500 gallons 275,350 gallons 791,759 gallons 25,312 gallons 143,943 gallons 4,050 gallons 4,498,125 gallons 68,850 gallons 1,633,500 gallons 7,500 gallons 791,750 gallons None - la. Or. Op. Oa. 2r. 14p. Between 3 and 4acres 4,000 gallons 151,875 gallons Dye and scour water, ashes and excavations. Dye and scour water and bark Dye and scour water - Dye water - Do. - - - Water after cleaning hides - None - - - Dye liquor and ashes - Spent dye liquor and ashes - Dye and scour water and ashes. Dye and scour water, and ashes from 25 tons of coal per week. Dye and scour water and ashes from two or three tons coal per week. Soke. Dye and scour water - Do. - -- Dye water - - - Dye water - - - Dye and scour water - None - - - Filtered water from stocks. Mud - - - Dye water. Scouring water. Dye water - - - Do. and acids, &c. - Dye and scour water - Dye water and mud from dam two or three times a year Do. do. - Mud from dam and excavations Dye and scour water - Do. and ashes - . From 9 tons coal per week. 76 cubic yards mud in four years. From 20 tons of coal per week. From 27 tons of coal per week. 1350 cubic yards mud in two or three years. 5,196 cubic yds.a year 1,800 cubic yds.a year 1,000 gallons a week. 26,620 cubic yards once in two years. 100 tons a year - - - - 180 cubic yds. a year 900 do, in four years º 200 gallons a week. 300 gallons a week. 750 gallons a week. 96,000 gallons a week. 861 gallons per week. 2,868 gallons a week. 800 gallons a week. 3,600 gallons a week. 86 gallons a week, acids and ammonia. 3,834 gallons a week. 1,270 gallons a week. 309 gallons a week. Standing. - --- Description of of Mr. JoHN H. ABBEY.—RIVER ColWE—continued. t REPORT ture 200 r --> - - Name of Mill, &c. Owner or Occupier. Description of Work. Nº. wº W hº Peº turned Quantity of Solid. Quantity of Liquid. Remarks. - Clough Lee Mill - Robinson Brothers - - || Manufacture - – 100 Water and steam Oa. 2r. Op. Scour water and mud from - - reservoir. Fall Lane Mill - - Hirst & Company - - || Woollen manufacturer - 15 Water - - 791,750 gallons - | Dye and scour water - - - - - || 3,450 gallons a week. Marsden Mills - - || Benjn. Sykes & Sons -- Do. - 200 Water and steam | 1,361,137 gallons - Do. - - 4033 cubic yards in - SIX Wears. Canal Mills - John Sykes & Sons - Machine making & woollen | 400 Steam - - | None - - | None. y - - - manufacture. Chapel Hill Mills - - || William IIy. Charlesworth - || Card making, yarn spinning, 90 Do. - - 14,850 gallons - | None. - - - and machine making. LEES BECſ. Lees Mill - - - || Battye Brothers - - Yarn manufacture - - 27 Water and steam - - - | None. - - - Seniors Mill - - - || Jas. Wild & Co. - - || Woollen manufacture - 60 Steam - - - - Soapsuds and dye liquor. - - Mill Hill - - - || Tolson Brothers - - || Fancy do. - - Do. - - || 530,985 gallons - Do. - - |West Field Dyeworks - Isaac Robson & Sons - || Cotton dyeing - - 32 Do. - - 1,300,000 gallons Dye water. - - Do. Silk Mill - || George Wilson - - || Silk spinning - 80 Do. – -- - - - Do. and suds. - - Do. - John Pollard - - || Chemicals, &c. - - 1 || – - - || 339,862 gallons - - - |Spa Bottom Mill - - || Abrm. Brierley - - Carding, spinning, and 160 | Steam — - -- - - Scouring water. - - - manufacture - Fenay Mill - - - || Riley Brothers - - || Fancy woollens - - 100 || Steam – - 1a. Jr. Op. Soap and dye woods. - - Woº. Lees Chemical | Herbert Sugden - || Chemicals – - - 2 || – - - 22,443 gallons - || Water from still - - - - - || 4,556 gallons a week. orks |Dogley Mill - - - || J. & T. Kenyon - - || Woollen manufacture - 130 || Water and steam - - - || Dye water - - - - - - || 20,880 gallons do. Valley Dyeworks - - || Lockwood & Mallinson - || Cotton and woollen dyeing - 20 || Steam - - 118,800 gallons - Do. Dean Mill - - - || Hermann Geissler – - || Woollen manufacture - 120 Oe - - || 712 sq. yds. - Do. and soapsuds - - Shepley New Mill - - || Barnicott & Kenyon - Do. - 200 Do. - - || 7,050 sq. yds. - || None. - - Victoria Mill - - || W. & E. Armitage - - Do. 194 Do. - - 2,450,250 gallons - |None. - - Whitley House - - || William Peace - - || Fancy vestings' - - 6 || Do. - - 3,781 gallons - - - - Cliffe Mill - - - || John Goldthorp - - || Woollen manufacture - 6 Do. “ - i. - - - || Condensed water. - - |Brook House Mill - - J. & J. Child - - Do. -- 150 || Do. - - |465,750 gallons - || Dye liquor. - - O. - - - George Hey - || Manufacture and dyeing - 100 Do. - - Oa. 2r. Op. |Soap suds and dye water and - -- - mud from reservoir. - - - - PENNY DIKE. - - - |Mold Green Chemical Works | Anthony K. Kaye - - || Chemicals and gas - - 12 || Steam - - || 101,250 gallons - Washings from bowls. - - |Rookery Mill - - - || Geo. Gelder - - - || Woollen yarn spinning - 30 Do. - - 440 square yards - || Dye wares. | - - |Rookery Mill and Aspley Mill Tolson Haigh, & Brooke - O. and 180 Do. - - || 33,750 gallons - || None. - - manufacturing - Do. - - John Day & Sons - - O. - - 400 Do. - -" 749,925 gallons - || Dye water. - - - Mold Green Dyework - || William Shaw - - || Bleaching and cotton dyeing 9. Do. - |60,750 gallons - || Spent dye liquor and mud - || 34 cubic yds, a year. - Kidd Royd - - - John Marsden - - Cloth finishing - - 8 Do. - - 3,375 gallons - || Washing off water and mud - || 3 cubic yds. a year. - Town End Dyeworks - Joshua Shaw - Cotton dyeing - - 5 Do. - - || 101,250 gallons - || Dye water - - - - - - 7,000 gallons a week. North Field Mill - - J. E. Taylor, Brothers - || Woollen and shawl manufac- Do. - - 300 square yards - Do. - - 3. 3. REPORT of Mr. JoHN H. ABBEY—continued. HEBBLE BECK. Name of Mill, &c. Owner or Occupier. Description of Work. No. of Hands. Description of Power used. Water or Steam. What Reservoir Room. Description of refuse turned into Stream. Quantity of Solid. Quantity of Liquid. Wool and cotton dyeing - Remarks. Willow Lane Dyeworks - || William Brigg & Co. - 6 Steam - - 27,000 gallons - Dye water - - - - - - 200 gallons a week. Bay Hall Dyeworks - - John Brown - - || Bleaching, dyeing, and 37 Do. - - 5,750 gallons - || Spent dye liquor, bleaching | 72 cubic yds, of mud || 4,308 gallons a week. finishing liquor, and cloride of lime per year Bay Hall Mill - - | Stork Brothers - - Angola, yarn, and spinning- 150 Do. - - 100 square yards - || Dye and scour water. - - Clough House Mill - - George Scholes - - Do. - 60 Do. - - Oa. 2r. Op. Scour water. - - Stone Mill - - - || Benjn. Holroyd - - Manufacture - - - - - - - - - - | None. - - Acre Mill - - - || Joseph Sykes & Bros. - O. - - - - - - - - - | None. -- - Temple St. Mill - - John Crosland - - Do. - - - - - - -- - - | None. - — Plover Mills - - - Joseph Walker & Sons - Do. - - 350 | Steam - - 3,600 yards - Gig water, almost clean. - - - Wellington Mills - - Liddell & Martin – - Do. - - 250 Do. – - || 4,840 yards - || Dye water and washing water. - - LONGWOOD BROOK. Longwood Gasworks - || Longwood Gas Co. - - Gas making - - - 3 || - - - || Gas holder 250,000 || Water from gas holder. - - - allons Cliffe End Mill - - Greenwood, Hanson & Co. - || Woollen manufacture - 230 Steam - - 5,562,500 gallons - || Dye water - - - - - - 18,000 gallons a week. Quarmby Clough Mill - Geo. Hattersley & Sons - Do. - - 80 Do. -- - 0a. Or. 16p. Dye and scour water. - - Quarmby Mill - Abrm. Hall - - - Do. - - 40 Do. - - |400 yards - - Condensed water. - - Hirst Mill - - - Do. - -- - Do. - - 30 Water and steam 0a. 3r. Op. Dye and scour water. - - Oakes Mill - - - || Benjamin Crosland - - Do. - - 90 | Steam - - || 4,050,000 gallons Do. do. - - Grove Mill - - - || William Shaw & Sons - Do. - - - Water and steam Oa, 1r. Op. Oil and dye wares, &c. - - Clough Mill - - - Fisher & Son & others - Do. - - - O. - 5,000 square yards - Dye and soap water. - - New Mill - - - John Broadbent & Son - Do. - - 300 Do. - 5,000 gallons - Do. do. - - - Lane Field End Dyeworks - || William Beaumont - - || Wool dyeing - - 5 Steam - - 101,250 gallons - Dye water - - - - - - 4,500 gallons a week. RIVER HOLME. Junction Mill - - John J. Rhodes - - Cloth finishing, — - - - - - Hope Foundry - - Joseph Shires - - Castings. | – - - - - - Rashcliffe Iron Works - George Kirk - Machine making - - || – - - - - - - Rashcliffe Mill - - Messrs. Blamires - - Woollen manufacture - 50 | Steam - - None - - Dye water, scour water & ashes - - - 126,522 gallons a week. Logwood Mill - - Hy. B. Taylor - - Drysalter - - - - - - - - - || Victoria Mill - - John W. & Hy. Shaw - Woollen manufacture - 110 | Steam - - | None - - - Albert Mills – - - || Berry & Turner - - Do. - 200 Do. - - | None - - Dye and scour water - - - - 201,879 gallons a week. Bath Mills – - - Roberts, Sons & Nephew - Do. - 150 Do. - - | None - - Scour water - - - - - 88,300 gallons a week. Baths - - - || William Wood -- - - - - - - - - - - - - Ashes - - - 50 tons a year. - Broadfield Mills -- - Hy. Crowther & Sons - Woollen manufacture - 671 || Steam - - - - - || Ashes, dye wares, & dye water 420 tons a year. - Do. - - - Hy. Hirst & Sons - - - - - - - - - || Lockwood Mill - - Geo. Crosland & Sons - Manufacture and gas making 180 |Steam and water Oa. 3r. Op. Scour water and mud - 50 cubic yards once - in 10 years. - Newsome Mills - - Taylor & Lodge -- - Do. - 70 | Steam - - 675,000 gallons - Suds and lime water - - y - - 861 gallons a week. Dungeon Mills - - J. & T. C. Wrigley - - Do. - 230 | Steam and water la. Or. Op. Dye water, dye wares, ashes, - | - and soke. - Taylor Hill Mills - - || Benjn. Vickerman & Sons . Do. - 152 | Steam – -- - - - Dye water and soap washings - - Armitage Bridge Mills - John Brooke & Sons - Do. - 540 | Steam and water - - - || Ashes, dye liquor and soke - - - - 1,525,920 gallons a week. 3. REPORT of Mr. John H. ABBEY.—RIVER HolyIE—continued. Description of What Reservoir Description of Refuse turned Name of Mill, &c. Owner or Occupier. Description of Work. iº. wº used. Room. into Stream. Quantity of solid. Quantity of Liquid. Remarks. ater or Steam. Steps Mill - - - || Beaumont & Vickerman - || Manufacture and gas making 240 | Steam and water 2a. 2r. Op. Refuse from scouring and 1 ton of ashes a day | 1,480 gallons a week. - dyeing wool and from gas. works, and ashes. Reins Mill - - - || Benjn. Mellor & Son - Do. - 120 sº l - - - - Neilev Mill - - - James Shaw - - Yarns, spinning, and dyeing 200 O. - - - - *E. - - - George Scott - - W. manufacture - 24 Do. - - Oa. 1r. Op. Soapsuds and dye wares. Smithy Place Mill - - || James Robinson - - Do. and dyeing 150 Steam and water Ca. 2r. Op. Washing water and dye liquor - - - 14,322 gallons a week. Banks Mill - - - John Haigh & Co. - - Scribbling,spinning,&milling 14 || Water - - 4,840 square yards - Washing off water. - - Rock Mills – - - John H. Bower - - || Cotton spinnin - - 100 Steam - - - - - | None. - - Do. - - - || Beaumont & France - || Woollen ºãcture - 40 Steam and water 272,193 gallons None. - - Mytholm Bridge Mill - Joseph Mellor - - Do. and dyeing 70 Do. 284,681 gallons - | Dye liquor, scouring water - - - || 19,050 gallons a week. - and excavations - Alma Mills - - - Joseph Mellor & Sons - || Woollen manufacture - 120 | Steam - Oa. Ir. Op. Dye and scour water and mud || 300 cubic yards per - month Thongsbridge Mills - - || Thomas Mellor & Sons - Do. - 160 Steam and water 1a. 1r. Op. Do. - - Bridge Mills - - Joseph Turner & Sons - Do. - 160 Do. 1,429,312 gallons - Do. - - - - 8,267 gallons a week. Holmfirth Mills - - || Jonathan Thorpe - - Do. - 88 Do. 500 square yards - || Dye water,scouring water, mud 2 tons of ashes per * — from dam, sewage, and ashes year Underbank Mill - - Geo. Thewlis & Sons - Do. - I - - | Steam - - Oa. Or. 80p. None. - Lower Mill - - - John Bower & Sons - || Woollen manufacture - 80 Steam and water | Oa. 2r. Op. Sweepings from mill and - - mud from Reservoir. - Prickleden Mill - - James Holmes & Sons - Do. - - || 100 Do. Oa. 2r. Op. Dye water and grease. - - Prickleden Dyehouse - George Farrar - - || Wool dyeing - - 6 - - - - - - - || Dye liquor. - - Round Bottom Mill - - Joseph Pogson - - || Manufacture and machine 56 Steam - - | None - - Engine water. - - making. Victoria Mill -. - - || Thomas Hinchcliffe & Sons wºmanufacture - 60 Steam and water 1a. Or. Op. Dye and scour water. - - Sandy Mill - - Messrs. Roberts - Do. - - 25 Do. 680,625 gallons - Scouring water and mud - 14,520 cubic feet - once in 10 years. Bottoms Mill - Barber & Company - - Do. - - || 100 Do. 4,900,500 gallons - Do. Do. 100 cubic yards a - ear. Spring Lane Mills – - º Brook & Sons and Woollen manufacture and 300 Steam - - 303,750 gallons - || Dye and scour water. y - - others. dveing. - Bottoms Dyehouse - - || Joseph Roberts - - wº dyeing - - 7 Steam and water | 405,000 gallons - | Dye liquor and mud - 1,200 cubic yards | 120,000 gallons a week. once in 12 years. Hinchcliffe Mill Dyehouse - || Roberts Brothers - - Do. - - - 1 No Power - 6,750 gallons - Do. Do. - - - - - y - 2,400 gallons a week. Hinchcliffe Mili - - || Benjn. Butterworth & Co. - || Woollen Manufacture - || 120 Steam and water 1a. Or. Op. - - - Holme Bridge Dyehouse - J. & J. Midgley - - || Wool dyeing - - 12 Water - - 60,750 gallons - | Dye liquor - - - - - 12,000 gallons a week. Holme Bridge Mills – - Joshua Barber & Sons - || Woollen manufacture 140 | Steam and water Oa. 1r. Op. Dye and scour water. - Brownhill Mills - - || Charles Beardsell & Sons - Do. - - 7 O. - 2,450,250 gallons. Do. Do. - - - - - - || 72,000 gallons a week. Bank End Mill - - || Crosland & Moorhouse - Do. - - 20 Water - - Oa. 3r. Op. Scour water. - Upper Digley Mill - - George Tinker - - Do. - - 7 Do. - - 5,062 gallons - Dye and scour water - - - - - 600 gallons a week. Bilberry Mill- - - || Broadhead Bros. & Mason - Do. - - 30 Do. - - || 30,375 gallons - Do. Do. - - Dean House Mill - - || Thomas Dyson - - 0. - - 90 Steam - - 4,900,500 gallons - Do. Do. - - Ribbleden Mill - J. T. Taylor - - - Scribbling and milling - 20 Steam and water Oa. 2r. Op. Scouring water and mud - 1,613 cubic yards a - rear. Dover Mill - - - Do. - - - Manufacture and dyeing - || 100 Do. - Oa. Ir, Op. Dye & scour water & ashes. y - - Jane Wood Dyehouse - || Edward Fozzard - - | Dyeing - - - 8 - Do. - Oa. 1r. Op. Dye liquor. — - Swan Bank - - - || Abel Cuttell - - || Woollen manufacture - 60 Do. - - - - - Do. &c. - - Green Lane Mill - - || Robert Ramsden & Sons - Do. - - 20 Do. - Oa. 1r. Op. sº water, ashes, and mud - - rom dam. Wash Pit Mill - - Lamb & Thompson - - Do. and dyeing - 52 Steam - - || 101,250 gallons - Dye and scour water - - - - - | 1,000 gallons a week. Choppard’s Mill - - || Charles Cromack - - Do. - - 14 Water - - - - - - Scour water- - - - - - - || Water from 18 cwt. of soap per year. º 3. s REPORT of Mr. John H. ABBEY —continued. MAG IBROOK. Decription of Royd Edge Mill and Meltham Mill. mud. in three years. Name of Mill, &c. Owner or Occupier. Description of Work. fiº. wº used. W hº Decº turned Quantity of Solid. Quantity of Liquid. Remarks ater or Steam. Armitage Bridge Dyeworks - || Tolson, Haigh, & Brook - Scouring, dyeing, & finishing 35 Steam - - 202,500 gallons - || Dye water - - - - - - - 1,298 gallons a week. Thirstin Dyeworks - - Farrar Brothers - - Wool and woollen dyeing - 26 Water and steam Oa. 1r. 20p. Dye wares and mud from 1,000 cubic yards - dam. once in 10 years. Moll Spring - - - H. & G. Oldham - - | Dyeing and finishing - 80 Steam - - 1,400 square yards - || Spent dye liquor. - - Lord’s Mill - - - Heaps & Walker - - || Manufacture and dyeing 100 Water and steam 45,562 gallons - Do. Do. - - - - - - || 4,680 gallons a week. Cocking Steps Mill - - || John Wrigley & Sons - || Woollen manufacture - 200 Steam - - 122,500 square yds. Refuse from dyehouse and 120 cubic yards a - - - Standing. mud from reservoir - year. Hall Mill - -- - || Edwin Beaumont - - Do. - - - - - - - - Crosland Mills - - John Heap & Brothers - Do. - - || 160 Water and steam Oa. 2r. Op. - || Dye and scour water and 800 cubic yards - mud. once in two years. Bentley Mills - - Charles Brooke & Sons - Silk throwing - - || 200 Steam - - | None - - || Refuse from dyehouse. - - Spink Mire Mills - - || Ainley & Taylor - - || Woollen manufacture - 60 Water and steam 317,906 gallons - Do. and ashes and mud from 20 tons of ashes - reservoir. and 101,730 cubic feet of mud a year. - Old Mill - - - Geo. Morton & Co. - - || Manufacture and dyeing - 20 Water & steam | 196,500 gallons Dye and scour water. - Brow Mill - - - || Hamer Taylor - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Standing. Meltham Cotton Mill - || Edward C. Goody - - Cotton spinning - - || 100 Steam – - 287,093 gallons - | None. - - --> O. - - - James Kilburn - - Machine making - - - - - - - - Lane End - - - George Garside - - Do. - - 5 Water - - - - - - Lower Sunny Bank - - John Farrar - - - Scribbling, fulling,& spinning 50 Water and steam 207,868 gallons - || Dye and wash water. - - Owler Bars Mill - - Do. – - - Do. - - Water - - 263,837 gallons - Do. Do. - - Upper Sunny Bank - - Amos Woodhead - || Manufacture - - 26 Water and steam 220,975 gallons - || Dye liquor. - - New Bridge Mill - – Walker & Ramsden - - O. - - - 24 Do. - 773,600 gallons - Do. Do. - - Meitham Mills - - Jonas Brook & Sons - Manufacture of sewing cot- || 1300 Do. - 5a. Or. Op. Refuse from bleach work, 325 tons a year. - ton. - ashes, and night soil. Joseph Hirst - - Manufacture - - || 290 Water and steam 1a. Or. Op. Dye and scour water and 605 cubic yards once - NEW MILL DIRE AND JACKSON BRIDGE DIKE. Stoney Bank Mill Kirk Bridge Mill Newmill Mill- - - Holme Bottom Mill - - Lude Hill - - - Jug Nook Mill - - Wild Spurr Mill - - Scholes Mill - - - Jackson Bridge Mill - - Dolroyd Mill- - - Hepworth Mill " - T Lee Mill - - - Wimpenny & Bowes - Hugh Mellor Charles Lockwood J. Hirst & Co. Pitt & Booth Eli Moorhouse Edward Hirst & Son Moorhouse & Lockwood Moorhouse & Allison - Moorhouse Brothers - Mrs. Shaw - Jas. & Jonathan Lockwood - Woollen manufacture - Rag grinding - Mauufacture and dyeing - Cotton spinning - - Woollen manufacture Manufacture and dyeing - Do. - - Do. - - Do. - - Do. Dyeing and scribbling - Manufacture and dyeing - 160 20 200 10 Water and steam Do. - Do. - Do. - Steam - - Water and steam Do. - Do. - Do. - Do. - Steam - Do. - - 815,500 gallons 843,750 gallons 50,625 gallons 112,500 gallons 101,250 gallons 1,633,500 gallons 337,500 gallons 4,359,993 gallons Dye water and scour water - Dye water - - - Soke and dye liquor and mud. Mud from reservoir - - Dye water and scour water - Dye liquor - - - Do. - - - Dye liquor, soke, ashes, and mud. Dye liquor and sok - Do. Do. - Dye liquor - - - Dye liquor and soke - 2,000 cubic yards per year. cubic week. 56 feet a 133 cubic feet once in three years. 14,870 gallons a week. 360 gallons a week. 6,450 gallons a week. 4,275 gallons a week. 9,522 gallons per week. 4,762 gallons per week. 4,336 gallons per week. 4,762 gallons per week. 1,106 gallons a week. 3,339 gallons a week. 110 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. J. Thornton. 25 Oct. 1866. -- * —No. Mr. Joseph THoRNTON (Huddersfield) examined. 3211*. (Chairman.) How long have you been in- spector of nuisances to the Commissioners of Hudders- field 2–One year and ten months. 3212*. How long have you resided in Huddersfield? —I have resided in the neighbourhood all my life, on the west side of the town. 3213*. What business did you follow before being inspector of nuisances?—Cloth finishing and manu- facturing. 3214*. Since you commenced your duties of inspec- tion which portion of the town has required most attention ?—The lower parts. 3215*. Those on margins of streams and rivers?— The lower and worse drained parts of the town. 3216*. What kind of nuisances have you most fre- quently to complain of?–Bad drainage. 3217*. Have you to complain of unpaved courtyards and unpaved streets?—Of both. 32.18°. Causing mud —Causing mud and filth, and difficulty of cleansing. 3219%. Can you name any particular places where you have most nuisances?—Yards and courts leading out of Old Street, Peel's Yard, and Chadwick’s Fold. 3220°. Are there privies and ashpits in those yards? In all of them. 3221*. Do the Commissioners empty the privies and ashpits, or do the people themselves empty them — The Commissioners empty them. . 3222*. And do they sell the refuse 2–Yes. 3223*. To the farmers?—Yes. 3224*. Where do you store it?—At Mold Green. 3225*. Has there been any complaint about the storing of the refuse at Mold Green 2–Yes, from the Mold Green people. 3226*. Of your causing a nuisance there 2–They do not and cannot say that it is a nuisance, but they com- plain of it as an eyesore. 3227*. How much a load do the farmers give you for taking it away ?—About 1s. 6;d. for a one-horse load, taking the general average of loads. - 3228*. Will that be a ton weight?–It will be over a ton weight. 3229*. How long do you remember the rivers and streams in this district?—All my life. 3230°. How do you find them now as compared with what you knew them to be at first 2–Very bad. 3231*. Discoloured 2–Yes. 3232*. Have you many privies in your district which open direct into the rivers and streams, or which discharge their refuse into the stream —Only tWO. . - - - 3233*. Where are they –One is on the Shore-foot Mill goit, and the other is at Engine Bridge, the county bridge. 3234*. Is that the bridge which you pass in going from Huddersfield to Lockwood f – Yes; and the water from the turnpike road washes into the cesspool, and the soil is taken into the river. 3235*. Have any complaints been made of those privies 2–None whatever, 3236%. What is the mill called upon the lower side of that bridge, which blows out a quantity of waste material on the banks of the river, on the left-hand side going to Lockwood?—It is Eastwood's mill. 3237*. What is that refuse which is blown out upon the banks?—The dust from the teazing of the woollen and the cotton material. 3238°. To whom does the mill belong upon the upper side —The executors of Joseph Kaye. 3239*. That is the mill from whence ashes are thrºwn in 2–Yes. 3240°. There is a mill higher up on the opposite side 2–Yes, a small mill belonging to a cloth finisher 3241*, Sometimes ashes are shot on the lower side across towards Huddersfield, and on the other side across towards Lockwood, and they make a barrier on both sides 2–Yes, that is Messrs. Starkey’s mill. 3242*. Have you anything to do with that matter, does it form a nuisance which you can complain of? I believe that that is a common law nuisance. 3243*. What is the state of health in the worst dis- tricts —We had a great deal of fever last season. I believe that it was very general throughout the coun- try, according to the Registrar General's return. 3244*. Do you know the relieving officer P-Yes. 3245*. Is there more than one relieving officer 2– There is only one for Huddersfield. 3246*. Is he here 2–Not that I am aware of. 3247°. Do you know where he applies the most relief?—It will be in the lower and Irish parts of the town. - 3248*. Is it in the places where they have to complain of most nuisances?—Among the Irish population. 3249*. Are there many Irish resident in Hudders- field?—A great many. - 3250*. What are they chiefly employed in 2–They are labourers, masons' labourers chiefly, and excavators. 3251*. Are there more in your opinion now than there were some years ago —I believe that there are. 3252*. Do you think that the death rate has at all increased since they congregated there 2–I cannot speak to that, on account of the short time that I have had the district under my inspection. I have taken the death rate every month from the registrar for the Commissioners. I have a report here. I have made a comparison between the rich districts of the town and that district which is most affected by bad drainage and Irish population. 3253*. Have you written it out in the form of a report 2–I have. 3254*. Will you read it 2–I will. I have drawn up this report with a view to meet the questions in the printed inquiry. (The same was handed in, and is printed at the end of the evidence of the witness.) 3255*. (Mr. Harrison.) You have mentioned that refuse is discharged into the river from gasworks 2– I am not aware that any refuse from the gasworks in the town gets into the sewer ; I allude to private gas- works and village gasworks in various localities, I have frequently seen gas tar swimming on the top of the floods as I have gone over the bridges. I saw it only a few days ago. 3256*. What becomes of the refuse from the town gasworks?—Above the town gasworks when I com- menced inspecting there were great complaints in Fitzwilliam Street of the stench from the sewers ; the sulphuretted hydrogen drove parties out of their houses who had untrapped drains and sinks. I strongly suspected that matter from the gasworks got into this sewer. I went down to the gasworks and examined the premises minutely, and I was satis- fied that there was not any matter from the gasworks which went into the sewer, though they had a com- munication with that sewer ; the only matter getting in, I think, is the surface water from the premises, which might contain a little refuse lime. 3257*. Then the other refuse is utilized in some way or other ?–It is. 3258*. Is there any reason why in the small villages and in the private gasworks it should not be utilized in the same manner —I know that a great many of them sell their refuse, but sometimes they empty it into the river, and it causes a very great stench. 3259". I wish you to explain to us with respect to the canal basin ; you say that the basin receives the foul water, and that the pure water which comes down from the canal instead of supplying that basin is passed into the already polluted river?—That is so. The junction of the two canals is at the west end, and the river enters at the west end. The water which runs into that basin from the river was intended to supply the Shore-foot Millwith water, and clear water comes down by the canal from Marsden; the Shore-foot Mill is capable of taking it in. I have watched the water many times, and I believe all the Marsden canal water passes down the goit to the water-wheel. 3260*. Then do you mean to say that the canal basin, which is now a nuisance to the town, might be supplied with clear water by some arrangement?–It might by a little contrivance have all the water from RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 111 Marsden, if that water was brought into it instead of being passed through the water-wheel. I believe that that mill has a right to draw water from that canal basin, which is of a considerable extent, till the water gets to a certain depth. 3261*. Have you observed the floods in the river during your residence in Huddersfield, have they increased or diminished?—I should say that the floods are not so great as they were formerly, that has been my impression for several years back; the water supply down the river is not so great as formerly. 3262*. In dry weather ?–In dry weather. 3263*. You think that neither the floods have been so great, nor the dry weather supply –They have not. 3264*. How do you account for that –I account for it by the extra reservoir room. The embankments of some of the reservoirs have been considerably raised. I believe that a greater provision has been made for husbanding the rainfall. 3265*. The intention of that is to diminish floods and to give a more regular supply in summer time?— Yes. - 3266*. But you seem to say that it has diminished floods and lessened the supply in the summer time — Yes, I do say so. 3267*. (Professor Way.) You have said that the canal is in a very bad state —Yes. 3268. And that it has had no chance of being flushed as the river is -No. 3269*. If the river and streams are purified the canal which receives its water from the streams will gradually get purified too?—It will become purified as a natural consequence. 3270*. You have mentioned that at one time zymotic diseases were very rife in the town of Huddersfield, and in the outlying districts. Did you at all associate that with the condition of the water, or would it result from the very fact of there being a quantity of water in the neighbourhood; had it anything to do in your opinion with the impurity of the water —I ascribe the great prevalence of epidemics in this district to the overcrowding of the dwellings; there is a great want of dwelling-houses for the labouring classes in this neighbourhood. I find in several instances that there are one, two, or sometimes three families in one house. 3271*. The evils incident to over-crowding would be increased by effluvium from the river, by bad atmosphere?—Yes. The witness withdrew. REPORT (referred to supra, Q. 3254*) of Mr. Joseph THORNTON, Inspector of Nuisances to the Commissioners of HUDDERSFIELD. The Huddersfield sewerage has five outlets, viz.: one at Grove Bridge, two at Shorefoot Mill tail goit, one at Aspley below the bridge, and one at the bottom of Spring Lane, Longroyd Bridge. - The private drains are those of Messrs, Learoyds, Reid Halliday's, Richd. Armitage's, the mills and dye- works at Seedhill, Lower and Upper Aspley, Colne Road, Engine Bridge, Folly Hall, and Longroyd Bridge the drains from which places empty direct into the river. The River Colne is polluted to near its several sources on all its branches by the mills, dyeworks, gasworks, greaseworks, and dwelling-houses in the localities through which its branches flow. I remember the time when the river water was used for domestic purposes, and I have caught fish therein. The canal at Aspley is supplied with water from the river. The Shorefoot Mill has its supply of water from the canal basin. The Huddersfield and Ashton canal has its junction with the Ramsden canal at this basin. The pure water for the Huddersfield and Ashton canal passes down the goit to the Shorefoot water-wheel and not into the basin. The basin is often dredged of the filth and wreck that flows into it from the river. During warm weather the stench from the canal is very bad. The decomposition and fermentation in the water of the basin is perceptible by the bubbles that are gon- tinually rising to the surface, and people complain about it; excepting the deposit, the canal is in this state down to Cooper’s Bridge, a distance of three miles. This canal is a greater nuisance to the town than the river; the river is cleansed by the floods, the canal never, but it is diluted at times with fresh water. The river passes Huddersfield on the south and east, the polluted canal is on the east side and is close adjoin- ing a dense population. The south, and south-west winds convey the effluvia from the river on the south over the town; the east, north-east, and south-east winds do the same. The town contains a population of 23,379. The rate of mortality to 1,000 persons living, for the 12 months ending September 30th 1866, was 24.9; the number of deaths from contagious diseases in the same period were 76, being at the rate of 3:2 per 1,000. The state of the river and canal has become a great nuisance. The mortality on their margins is much higher than in the other localities. The number of deaths from zymotic diseases in the river and canal district were 31 in a population of 5,600, being at the rate of 5.5 per 1,000. In the other portion of the im- º". boundary the population is 18,779, and the eaths from the same causes were 45 or 2.3 per 1,000. The population in both districts are of all classes. The Hebble Beck is on the north side of Huddersfield and drains the greater portion of the township of Lindley and Fixley, also the hamlets of Fartown and Marsh in the township of Huddersfield. This beck is polluted with the sewage of the mills, dyeworks and dwellings of the above places, and is a great nuisance to the in- habitants in its neighbourhood. People have complained of the stench from this brook. I have frequently seen persons place their fingers to their noses when passing over the beck. The deaths from contagious diseases in this locality were 4 or 4.6 per 1,000. I have been inspector of nuisances nearly two years, and have observed that after long prevailing east winds, the death rate of the town has increased. The cause I think is this, the town inclines to the east and has hills on three sides, the valley from Huddersfield to Cooper Bridge is formed by high hills, the river and canal run the whole length of this valley, a distance of three miles; the miasm from which is brought back and spread over the town, at the same time this wind impinges on the streets grids and enters the outlets of the sewers, and forces back the effluvia into the streets and houses through the untrapped drains. The wind itself has its influence. All these are the cause of the increase in the rate of mortality during the prevalence of eastern winds. The mills and dye works that abut upon the streams, all more or less throw their ashes therein. I have known the Marsden brook polluted several times for weeks together with sand and wreck, by the sludging of the tunnel end reservoir at Marsden; every milldam, steam boiler, and engine pump being injured thereby. This reservoir is mainly filled with wreck from the tunnel spoil bank on one of the streams above, and the by-wash of the Haigh reservoir is turned on the moor and is making for itself a course and a ravine, The debris is washed down by the floods into the reservoir there to deposit, first the stone, then the sand, the clayey mud, and last the light black mould. This great evil might be easily remedied at a trifling cost. They say that it is lawful, for that which come with the stream to be sent forwards by the stream, thus entailing a great loss to every millowner below. The law ought to interfere and compel all owners of reservoirs and mill dams to get rid of the wreck by other means than sending it down the Watercourses. The water supply is affected by drainage and cultiva- tion which causes the rainfall to run off more quickly. The reservoirs on the hills act beneficially by husbanding the water, and they in great measure prevent floods. They might be increased to the extent necessary to catch all the rainfall. The hills and valleys of this district are being denuded of trees which will lessen the supply. The planting of rocky places, and of lands not worth cultivating would increase the supply, and should be encouraged. Trees precipitate the driving mists so common to high lands, and they prevent evaporation, they collect a large quantity of water which would be lost to such districts. There are two ways of freeing the rivers from pollu- tion, by filtering and applying the sewage to the land. Where the water supply is little, this application of the sewage would be too great a drain on the rivers and brooks, unless it was thrown far enough back as to affect HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. J. Thornton. 25 Oct. 1866. O 4 112 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDI).ERS- FIELD. 25 Oct. 1866. Mr. E. Greenwood. the springs of the district that it originally drained from. The liquids from dyeworks, chemical works, gas works, and similar trades whose liquid refuse would be injurious to vegetation should be kept out of the systems of sewerage, and undergo a separate filtering through a strata that would deprive it of every impurity before entering a drain or a river. The sewage of towns and manufactories should undergo alike process before being turned into the rivers. The filtering strata when satu- Mr. EDWARD GREENwooD 3272*. (Chairman.) Have you a canal under your superintendence?—Yes. - 327.3%. What canal is that?—The Huddersfield canal, from Huddersfield to Ashton, and the broad canal from Cooper Bridge to Huddersfield. 3274*. What length of mileage do the two canals make 2–24 miles, from Huddersfield to Ashton; the Huddersfield canal, which is the narrow canal, is 20 miles long ; and the broad canal, or Sir John's canal, from Cooper Bridge, is four miles in length. 3275*. How long have you been inspector of those canals 2–I have had to do with the broad canal ever since it became the property of the London and North- western Company, that is some 17 or 18 years, and with the Huddersfield canal 34 years. 3276*. In what condition do you find the water of those canals now as compared with what it was when you first had charge of them —The water in the narrow canal is about the same, but the water in the broad canal is far more filthy than it was previously. 3277*. What does that filth arise from?—Principally from dyeworks and other manufactories, and the amount of solid matter put into the river, and ashes, and excavations from foundations, and also the large quantity of debris which is necessarily brought down from the hills. - 3278*. What is the name of the stream which feeds your canal?—The broad canal gets its principal supply direct from the river at Huddersfield. 3279*. What is its name 2—The Colne River, which is also fed from the Holme ; the canal takes in the water just below where they join. 3280*. You have arrangements, I presume, for taking in the water or shutting it out, by cloughs and a goit * —Yes. 3281*. And you can shut it out when there is a bad flood, and take it in when it is bright, if it is ever bright –So far as the broad canal is concerned we have not that privilege, for the simple reason that Sir John has works at Shore Foot Mill, which are supplied from the same source, and of course they work frequently when we, if we had the opportunity, should keep the water out so as to render the canal far less polluted. 3282%. Does the land on both sides belong to Sir John P-Yes. 3283*. And above —Yes, for a long way up. 3284*. Then the land which has been leased for mill purposes belongs to him —Yes, the greatest por- tion of the land just in the immediate neighbourhood on both sides of the river does belong to Sir John. 3285*. Do you know whether there have been any stipulations in the leases to prevent pollution ?—I am not able to speak to that. 3286*. But pollution does arise from the working of the mills situated above the canal?—Perhaps you do not clearly understand me. The summit pool of the broad canal, which is nearly a mile in length, and which runs through the bottom part of the town, is actually now used as a mill dam. As the last witness very justly remarked, clearwater comes down the Hudders- field canal, which is the narrow canal, and the feeder from the river Colne comes at right angles across the canal to Shore Foot Mill, so that what ought to improve the condition of the broad canal is turned out into the T1Wer. 3287°. Then any pollution in the canal is an accumu- lating one –It takes a great deal more cleansing now than it did seven years ago. 3288*, Does the water ferment in the hot weather rated would have a commercial value as tillage. If fish could live in the filtered water the system would be complete. Every local authority is empowered by recent Acts of Parliament to drain their districts, and have the powers to purchase and relet or to rent land for the purpose of applying the sewage of towns thereon. (Signed) Joseph THORNTos, Inspector of Nuisances. (Huddersfield) examined. as described by the last witness?—Yes, to a certain extent. There was one thing which the last witness mentioned which seemed rather paradoxical; he stated that the water in the basin was worse than the water in the river, which basin gets its supply from the river ; but he forgot to mention one cause, which is this: unfortunately a great deal of night soil is laden into boats at the end of the basin, generally in the night, and instead of tipping the night soil into the boats, I am sorry to say the men tip a great portion into the basin, and that is one reason why the water ferments and becomes offensive in hot weather. 3289°. Do you mean to say that they tip it into the water —Yes, the carts are brought in the night, and, through carelessness, instead of tipping it into the boats the men tip it into the basin. (Mr. Thornton.) It is tipped on to the wharf and then cleansed and thrown into boats. , 3299". (Chairman.) And if it rained very heavily the rain would wash a part of the soil from the wharf º the canal basin —No, it would wash on to the I'Oa Ci. (Mr. Greenwood.) The soil in some instances is shot in out of the carts, not in all instances of course. You can have an eye-witness who has seen it till the soil has accumulated nearly to the top of the water. 3291*. Have you no power as inspector of the canal to prevent that, or to fine these people for improperly throwing in night-soil —Yes, but the mischief is principally done in the night. - 3292*. Have you any men working in the basinº Not continuously. - 3293. Have they ever complained to you of the ſoul state of the water during hot weather 2—A person whom I have alluded to has done so, and he gave me that as the principal cause. 3294°. Is that some person whom you have in your employment —Not at all, but he lives near the place. 3295*. Do you think that there are any means of reducing this nuisance, and getting rid of it altogether –It would be much better for the canal, and for the manufacturers all along the canal, if the Shore Foot Mill water was done away with altogether, or taken under the canal, as Mr. Thornton describes, because the water which comes down the narrow canal, and which comes in a very pure condition, would supply the broad canal. 3296*. Would it cost much to effect that alteration ? -No. I have no doubt that the company would be very glad to make the alteration, if Sir John would give up his claim to the canal basin as a mill-pond. I think that it would be to the joint interest both of Sir John and of the company, and of the whole district. - 3297". (Mr. Harrison.) Is there only that one mill which takes water from the basin – After the water has left the Shore Foot Mill it then passes to another mill-fall before it flows into the river ; the alteration would not sacrifice the interest of those two mills. They would not lose water, for they could take river water, only the river water of course wants conducting under the canal, so as to be separated from it. 3298°. A very great nuisance, four miles in length, is created for the sake of the power given to two mills; —Precisely so. 3299". How is the narrow canal supplied with Water ?—Entirely from flood water impounded in reservoirs. 3300". Do you know the area of those reservoirs? MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. II.3 —Yes, there are 10 of them, and they are about 80 acres in extent. 3301*. What is the gathering ground 2–I am not prepared to state the exact number of acres of gathering ground, but three out of the 10 flow the other way, towards Lancaster. 3302*. (Chairman.) On the Rochdale side?—Yes. There is one thing which I wish to state. It has been quite apparent to me that through heavy matters which are thrown in the bed of the river has risen within the last 10 or 15 years at least over two feet I should say all round this neighbourhood, and if some stop is not put to the practice it will become before very long of very serious consequence to pro- perty abutting upon the river where the situation is low. 3303*. You mean that the river will flood the ad- joining property and seriously damage it 2–Yes; the bed of the river is gradually rising year after year till low property, which before was not much flooded or very rarely, will become almost continuously in Water. 3304*. You have also heard that there is some very valuable mill property in the same condition ?–Yes, I heard the evidence this morning to that effect. It has also occurred to me that the time will come when it will be desirable, and I think that it is desirable at present, that a large reservoir should be constructed near the summit of the hills of the Colne and likewise of the Holme, with a view to flush out the river in summer time. 3305*. Have you ever had much to do with flushing? —Yes. 3306*. How far do you think that the effect of a flush would be felt down a river like either the Colne or the Holme 2—That would all depend on the size of the reservoir and the capacity for flushing. 3307*. Did the Holmfirth flood at all flush the river beneficially —There was a deal of wet, and the flood without that would have been sufficient. 3308*. Do you think that it at all lowered the bed of the river in any place —No ; I was not thinking of scouring out the bed of the river, but I think that it would have some such effect as I will describe. For instance, we have had six or eight weeks of fine weather in summer time when the flow has been very little, and if rain falls so as to form a sharp fresh the water becomes very turbid, and the stench is awful for a time. 3309°. Then you look to floods to dilute the foul water and to carry it away ?—Yes. 3310*. You do not mean a flush so as to deepen the bed of the river ?—No. 3311*. (Professor Way.) You mean just to carry away the lighter materials —Yes. 3312*. (Chairman.) Do you not think that you would be seeking a doubtful remedy for keeping the river pure, and a remedy which would be bad economy? —I do not know as to the matter of expense, but I see no difficulty in keeping out the heavy matter. 3313*. And you think that you would be able to flush at short intervals the foul matter –Yes. 3314*. Would it not be much better to keep out foul matter altogether ?—Yes, if it is practicable ; it might be pumped up. 3315*. (Professor Way.) Do boatmen living on the bank of the river suffer from any peculiar diseases — No. There is one statement which Mr. Thornton had in his report which I wish to correct. He gave the Commissioners to understand that there was a large quantity of refuse brought from the moor in consequence of the water flowing over the bye-wash or waste weir of the Haigh reservoir, and I wish to state that the Haigh reservoir is supplied with two bye-washes, but that the water is never allowed to flow over either of them, because when the reservoir is full the water is turned out. 3316*. (Chairman.) The flood water comes down the river all the same, although it does not come exactly in the way which he stated 2–Just so. 3317*. And it will not make any difference whether you turn it over a bye-wash or over a side conduit.— No ; but I understood part of his report to show that the bye-wash coming over the Haigh reservoir brought debris down from the moors. 3318". And you do not think that it does 2–Cer- tainly not ; though there is no doubt at all that there are large quantities of debris brought from the moors in various places, the hills being so precipitous. 3319". And the sand slips up from the washing of the stones against each other?—Exactly. 3320.*. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you allow any refuse to come up the narrow canal?–No ; there are certain sewers which ought to be kept out. 3321*. If those were kept out the water would be very pure ?—Yes. 3322*. Do you supply any of the mills from the canal?—Yes; the water of the river is so bad that they cannot do without canal water. 3323*. What mills do you supply with water?— Nearly the whole of those in this district, for scouring purposes and for dyeing. 3324*. Do you do so through the town of Hudders- field —Yes, all the way down to Cooper Bridge. 3325*. From Huddersfield down to the Calder the river water is impure ?–Yes; but the principal part of the mills commence in the town and extend for about a mile, or a mile and a half, down towards Cooper Bridge. 3326*. Is the water pure there?—No ; the principal portion of the mills are at the top part, though all the way down they take canal water. 3327*. If the foul water were prevented from getting into the canal might the canal be a means of supplying a quantity of very pure water to the mills?–Quite so. 3328°. (Chairman.) What rate of charge do you make for water to mills which take your water?—- Where it is used for steam power we charge 5s. per horse per annum, and the condensed water is returned into the canal again. 3329*. For washing what do you charge —Accord- ing to the capacity of the pipe or of the pump. 3330°. For a pipe an inch in diameter what do you charge –We charge so much for a pipe an inch in diameter, and for all others in the same pro- portion. If you will excuse me I will decline to give the price. 3331*. But the manufacturers know what they pay? —Certainly. 3332*, I suppose that you have separate arrange- ments with each of them 2–Yes. 3333*. They are merely trade arrangements?–Just so. It would be a great benefit to the mills at the bottom of the town if the water in the broad canal was as pure as it is in the narrow canal, and I have suggested the taking of a large pipe down the bottom of the canal from the first lock of the narrow canal down the broad canal to a bridge a certain dis- tance below, so that all the mills could pump direct out of the bottom of the canal or pipe instead of out of the canal itself. 3334*. (Mr. Harrison.) Is the quantity of water which you collect in these reservoirs such that you could supply the canal with what water is requisite and have a considerable quantity to spare for manu- facturing and other purposes?—Yes, by increasing our capacity we could collect almost any quantity. 3335*. (Chairman.) Would not it be worth your while to do it so as to sell the water for trade purposes up to the extent of your capacity ?—Yes, I have no doubt of it. 3386”. Is not Yorkshire very thirsty for good water –Yes, more and more so every year in this neighbourhood. The witness withdrew. 17159.-2, HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. E. Greenwood. 25 Oct. 1866. RLVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. F. R. Jones. - 25 Oct. 1866. Mr. E. Eastwood. Mr. F. R. Jon Es (Huddersfield) examined. 3337*. (Chairman.) Are you a land surveyor?–1 alīl. 3.338+. How long have you practised in this dis- trict?–40 or 50 years. 3339*. Are you pretty well acquainted with the condition of the lands and streams in and around Huddersfield 2–I am, and I have been for that period. 3340*. Have you been much engaged in the transfer or lease of land for mill purposes?—I have. 3341*. Have you found much increase in the value of land within the time that you have lived here 2– Yes, a great increase. - 3342*. Is that increase at all contingent upon water rights?–Certainly. 3343*. When you are conveying an estate for mill purposes of course the water is almost as much a con- sideration as the land 2–Not altogether when the water is required for condensing purposes. 3344*. Are there any clauses put into leases with reference to the water in any way as that it shall not be wasted 2–That it shall not be fouled. 3345°. Is there any power to enforce those clauses —There is a great difficulty about it. 3346%. What kind of clause is it; is it a special clause which each landowner frames for his own pro- tection, or a general clause —Each landowner frames a clause for his own protection; they are special clauses, under special circumstances. 33474. I presume that the lessor stipulates that the person taking the water shall return it to the stream below him —Yes. 3348*. Does the lessor also stipulate that the lessee shall return it in a pure state —That cannot be alto- gether accomplished. 3349*. The lessee is to have the use of it?–Yes. 3350*. It is hardly necessary to ask you whether the streams are worse than they were when you first knew them 2–Yes, and they are daily getting still worse. 3351*. And the number of mills is daily increasing? —Yes, very rapidly. 3352*. Have any facts come to your knowledge as to the rising of the bed of the stream at any particular points?–No, but I daresay that that has been the effect of tipping in materials. 33.53%. Some of the old county bridges would show that is the case?–Yes, but I do not think that I have noticed them sufficiently. 3354*. It would be very easy to ascertain whether the bed of the river had been raised underneath Lock- wood Bridge –Yes, but I have not noticed it suffi- ciently to judge. I remember when there was fishing in all these streams, and good fishing too, but now there is scarcely a fish in any of them. 3355*. Foul as the water is, is it not a hundred times more valuable now than it was when you had fish in it 2–Yes, no doubt about it. 3356*. And if the question of fish were the question involved it would not be worth while to do much to bring the fish back —No; I only state that fact about the fish to show the impurity of the water. 3357*. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. Abbey — Yes, and I thought that his information was very valuable indeed on this question. 3358*. Do you generally agree with the statements of Mr. Abbey —I quite agree with him; I think that his report is a very valuable one. 3359%. And you know that this pollution has grown up with the growth of the trade and is carried on to a great extent —Yes, and is constantly increasing. 3360*. And that if left as it has been heretofore without any superintending action it will naturally increase ?—Yes, so that the water cannot be used for dyeing purposes. - 3361*. And is it not quite possible to neglect the river and to add impurity to impurity until the river itself will be destroyed for even the coarsest fabrics —Certainly, the same as it is at Dewsbury and Batley; the river water is scarcely useable there. 3362*. At Dewsbury and Batley is the river more polluted than here 2–Yes, and at Bradford the stream is smaller. 3363%. You know what the Bradford Beck is 2–Yes. 3364*. I believe that you have nothing so bad as that here 2–Nothing. 3365*. What is the value of land per acre having river frontage and water rights *—It depends upon the situation. 3366*. Take one of the best situations 2—Some land here from 1%d, and 2d. a square yard per annum to 4d. - 3367*. Over the whole area –Yes. 3368*. And that is perpetual 2–Yes; some of the leases are for 999 years. Sir John's are limited to 99; they are so limited recently. 3369*. In what per-centage do you think that land has increased in value since you first knew it —I may say 50 per cent. in some localities. 3370*. Is it within your experience that the polluted condition of the rivers tends to reduce the value of the land 2–For mill purposes decidedly, because manu- facturers require pure water for their dyeing purposes. 3371*. If you could offer mill sites with comparatively bright water the land would be more valuable —No doubt; we should ask a higher price for it, because manufacturers, if they cannot use the water in the river, must find artificial means of obtaining water by bore holes. 3372*. If it is necessary to carry out preventive measures in manufacturing districts to protect the rivers, and if the annual cost is to be defrayed by a rate, do you think that it would be fair to levy any part of that rate upon the land 2–I think that it would. 3373*. As well as upon the mills –Yes. I think that it should be borne in certain proportions according to the value of the property. 3374*. You think that in carrying out whatever was necessary to benefit the general trade of the country the burden should be equally borne by all who could be fairly estimated as receiving a benefit or likely to receive a benefit?—Certainly. 3375°. Are there any paper mills in this part of Yorkshire 2–No ; there are some near Halifax. 3376*. (Mr. Harrison.) In the sale of mill property do you find the water power come in as an important element in the value –Yes, it does; but it is less so than it used to be. 3377*. Is that in consequence of the cheapness of coal —Yes; and a person who uses steam can have a mill where he likes, in the best situation, whereas the water power may be remote. 3378*. What is the valuation of water power per horse power —It is very much reduced compared with what it used to be. I can hardly say off-hand what it is, as it is so much reduced. The witness withdrew. Mr. E. EAstwood (Huddersfield) examined. 3379*. (Chairman.) Upon what stream are your works situated 2–The main works in which I am now employed are on the Colne. 3380*. Have you more than one works?—I am interested in works both on the Holme and on the Colne, and I have also the superintendence of large works below the town, very near the junction with the Calder. 3381*. Are those works in Mr. Abbey's list which you heard him read over ?—Mr. Abbey stated in his report that he had not got information at the point where I am. - 3382*. Did you decline to give him the information ? —A circular was sent with an indication that he would call upon me and confer, which he has not done; there is no indisposition to give the information. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 115 33834. Will you supply the information ?–Yes, as far as lies in my power to do so; some of the questions are difficult. - 3384*. What number of hands do you emplo altogether ?—I have a rather large mill to which the power is supplied, and there will be perhaps 120 men there. One is a smaller concern established 50 years ago where I am dyeing, and at the other I let and furnish the power. I consume the coal and furnish the power. 3385*. Do you use both water power and steam ower –Yes. 3386*. Do you know the relative value of water power and steam power to a manufacturer; I mean per horse power per annum ?–-There is a very wide difference. I should say that water power, with water- wheel and apparatus all fixed, might be calculated at perhaps 20l. a year, whilst steam power would be worth 50/. 3387°. That is, if you were supplied with the steam power 2–Yes. 3388*. Why do you value steam power so much above water power —There is a very good reason. Steam power is permanent, and may be relied upon; water power is intermittent, and never can be relied upon if much manual labour is wanted. Water power is of very little value except as an auxiliary in operations where great labour is required. 3389*. Except you have it in a much larger pro- portion than is supplied by these small becks?– Yes, and then it would approximate but would not be equal to steam power. I say that in round numbers steam power is worth 50l. per annum, whilst water power from its intermittent nature would not be worth 20/. - 3390%. A 20-horse engine would not cost anything like 1,000/, a year to work, or one-fourth of that amount, would it 2–More than one-fourth. With my engine I consume about 1,800 tons of coal, a year. Mine is a 35-horse power engine. In connexion with power worth 50l., all or nearly all our operations require an auxiliary heat. 3391*. How long have these mills been under your superintendence or in your possession :-Qne portion of the premises which I am now working has been in my possession for nearly 40 years. 3392*. Do you use much water in your operations : —Yes. 3393*. For both washing and dyeing 2—For both washing and dyeing. 33.94%. Do you use soap for scouring 2–Yes. 3395*. Do you utilize the soapsuds?—No. 3396*. Would it not pay to extract the oil and grease from the suds?—That depends in a great measure upon the physical conveniences which there are for collecting them. 3397%. What do you with the spent woods of the dyes?–75 or 85 per cent of the spent woods are burnt at my place. 3398%. They are mixed with the fuel ?–Yes. 3399%. What do you with the ashes — I must confess, as Mr. Brook did, that we have hitherto turned them into the river. 3400+. As the handiest way of getting rid of them * —Yes. 3401*. What have you done with the dye water 2– It has gone into the river also. 3402*. Without any attempt to clarify or purify it? —With none whatever. 3403*. Are there any complaints near you as to the state of the river ?—There have been complaints both above and below me, and I am quite aware, with other millowners, of our liability to an action at law, but I suppose that we commiserate each other. 3404*. Are any of your vats or yards so situated as to be within the influence of floods?—Yes. 3405*. Are you more liable to floods than you were formerly 2–I think not. - 3406*. Has the bed of the river risen at your works? —Yes, but not so much as other witnesses have stated. We suffer very little from it, but in very extreme floods we have had damage done. 3407*. Do you suffer at all from scarcity of water in dry weather ?–Yes, very much ; we have not so much water as we used to have. 3408*. Have you any wells or bore holes upon your premises 2–No. 3409*. Do you get any of the town's water for any of your purposes 2–We do not get the town's water, but we get the canal water. 3410*. Did you always get the canal water 2–We have had the canal water about a dozen years. 3411*. Can you dye as bright and good colours now as you could when you first commenced dyeing operations —Equally good, using the canal water. 3412*. But suppose that you were confined entirely to the river ?–We could not then conduct our operations. 34.13%. Then if the canal should be made as impure as the river it would be to the very great damage of your works?—It would damage the whole of the works from two or three miles above Huddersfield to two or three miles below, unless other sources of water were obtained. 3414*. Do you think that if colouring matter and foul refuse, solid and fluid, were kept out of the river the water would be useable again for your purposes 2 —With the number of factories and dye places which there are I do not think that the river water would ever be equal to what it was at first. 3415*. Have you seen the operation of pumping dye water upon land 2–No, but I am tolerably acquainted with it. Of course it is a mere matter of opinion. You ask my opinion, and I say that such apparatus may be resorted to when the stream is very small. In the instances which have been adduced the stream is a mere nothing in comparison with the river here. The quantity of water used by those people would be a very trifling fraction in comparison with the water used by several of the manufacturers in this neigh- bourhood. I mean, for instance, such as Starkey’s and Brooke's at Armitage Bridge. At those two places they required more water for scouring in a day than Mr. Armitage used in a month when he was the defendant and Mr. Hardy was the plaintiff. I therefore fully approve of irrigation on a small scale, but upon a large scale I do not think it is possible. As to solid matter, I fully agree with the statements which have been made by most of the witnesses, that some mode should be resorted to by which solid matter could be prevented from being cast into the river. 3416*. Have you heard that road dirt and excava- tions from foundations, and ashes from furnaces, and other solid refuse of that class are now thrown into the stream 2–I was quite aware of that before I gave evidence. 3417*. And you think that it would be desirable to take some means to keep those things out of the river? —Most decidedly. There is abundant material which it is desirable to keep out, which will otherwise be inevitably thrown in. A young friend of mine has given me an account to-day by which it appears that something approaching 100,000 bales of wool in a year will come and be worked within an area extending over a very small proportion of the water-shed marked upon the map. 3418+. What weight will that be?—I suppose 20,000 tons, and half of that alone would go in waste down the river. 3419*. Half of the whole weight of the wool?— Yes, close approaching it. 3420%. Has there been no attempt to keep that waste out of the river ?—I never heard of any, nor do I think it practicable. 3421*. (Professor Way.) A great deal of that is grease and dirt from the wool, is it not *—Yes, grease and earthy matter. 3422*. It is not the waste of wool itself?—No. 3423*. (Chairman.) You are aware that dye water passed into a stream and so diluted purifies or clarifies itself as it flows down that stream —Most decidedly. HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. E. Eastwood. 25 Oct. 1866. P 2 116 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIFT.D. Mr. E. Eastwood. 25 Oct. 1866. - - I suppose that running down the bed of the river for two or three miles would very greatly improve the Water. 3424*. If nature can do that in its own way, is it quite impossible that we may find some artificial means to clarify the same fluid before it goes into the river ? —I did not say that it was impossible, but I think that it is impracticable on a large scale. In rivers on a small scale I think that it may be done. 3425*. You have not seen any experiment which would lead you up to that ?—No. 3426*. Nor have you heard of one —No. 3427*. Do you know that there are chemicals which throw down matters in suspension?—I am quite aware that what is suspended in water may be precipitated. 3428*. I suppose that intercepting conduits to take dye refuse from mills above past mills below would not be submitted to. Where water is so valuable for power each owner of property wants the water turned into the stream immediately it leaves the premises above him, where it has been used ?—I, as one, should require it, and I think that if anything of the kind was attempted we should be without a river, and should have an artificial conduit, and that conduit could not, so far as I see, be made applicable for water power. 3429*. (Professor Way.) What are the principal dye woods and matters which you use; logwood?— There are the various dye woods, the names of which you know ; indigo and solutions of different metals. 3430°. Chromate of potash 2–Yes. 3431*. And tin for a mordant 2–Yes. 3432*. And iron —Yes, sulphate of iron and other things. In some operations of cotton dyeing metal solutions are used more extensively, but I am not a cotton dyer. 3433*. Do you find it necessary to use more mordant, we will say salt of tin, than you did when the water was in a better condition ?—No, we have no occasion for that, because for dyeing purposes I have pure water, as good, I believe, as there is in England, and of so much value is that water that I have conveyed it to a property which belongs to me, fully half a mile from the canal, at an expense of some 300l. 3434*. What quantity of water do you use per day ? —I could scarcely indicate it. 3435*. Is it 1,000 gallons?—ſ have not made a calculation in gallons, but I have made a rough calculation since I came into the room, and the quantity seems to me to be enormous. I am confident that in cleansing wool and for other purposes I should use 15,000 or 16,000 cubic feet of water. 34.36°. That is about 100,000 gallons a day ?—Yes. 3437*. That is including the water used for washing the wool 2–Yes. 3438*. Are you supplied with that water from the canal 2–It partially subsides before I use it. I do not get the whole of it from the canal. Iwash the rough washing with river water. 3439*. Will you confine yourself to the dyeing pro- cess ; what quantity of water do you use for that ? —I can scarcely say, but a two-inch pipe night and day supplies me, and I have tanks for the more delicate operations. 3440*. At what pressure ?—I will say four feet. 3441*. Supposing that the water in which you wash the wool were to be dealt with for the extraction of soap, as it is in some parts of this district, that would cause a reduction of the quantity of water which you would have to deal with in another man- ner, namely, the dyeing water, to a much smaller amount –Yes; but when we resort to means to economize the soapsuds we deal with a much smaller quantity than I speak of. 3442*. (Chairman.) You mean that the soapy water is much stronger ?—Yes; it is not so much diluted. 3443*. (Professor Way.) The emptying of the dye vats themselves does not give rise to a great waste of dye, does it?—There are many hundreds of gallons a day, or I may say thousands, but I think that not much valuable matter is lost by this. 3444*. That is a matter of computation ?–Yes, and I am not prepared with the computation. The chair- man alluded to the mill at the corner of the bridge, where the dust blew out, and I am ready to answer any questions upon it; I do not shrink from it. 3445*. (Chairman.) Would there be any difficulty in collecting that dust 2–No. 3446*. Would it not be valuable as a manure ?–It would be of very little value as a manure. 3447%. Has it ever been tried ?–It has been tried ; it has been tried mostly for mixing with manure from privies. 3448*. On the opposite side to your mill, from houses adjoining the bridge are not ashes thrown into the river ?—Yes. - 3449*. And your ashes also go in 2–Yes. 3450*. And I suppose that all the way down the river, wherever the river is accessible, ashes are put in either from mills or from private residences 2– Yes, and I think that it is very desirable to prevent it. 3451*. (Mr. Harrison.) Is the quantity of wool which you gave just now a return of the quantity used in the drainage area marked on the map *—It applies to a very small proportion of that drainage area, because a great extent of that drainage area is land where there are no inhabitants. 3452*. But the figures you gave represent the whole of the wool which is used within that drainage area 2 —I have been furnished with that information. 3453*. From what countries is that wool received 2 —A great part from the colonies, Australia, New Zealand, and the Cape, and some from Germany, and some from Spain, some from South America. 3454*. You say that nearly half of the wool goes into the river as dirt —I say that fast approaching one half goes into the river as waste. From its introduc- tion in a raw state to its leaving the warehouses I think you will find on the average that 100 lbs. weight of wool will not yield much more than 50 lbs. of finished cloth. 3455*. A part of this dirt is blown out of the wool? —It is. - 3456*. And a part of it comes out in the cleansing of the wool 2–Yes. 3457*. In that cleansing is not a considerable quan- tity of soap used 2–Not much, I believe, is used in cleansing raw wool; there is an alkaline salt obtained, which is very much economized. 3458*. Is not much of the refuse in that part of the process utilized by Mr. Teall —No, not in that pro- cess, that is in the fulling. 3459°. Might it be so used ?–The grease is in too diluted a state, and the expense would be too great. 3460*. Is the wool generally washed in machines 2 —There are some special machines which are extensively used in this neighbourhood. 3461*. Can you tell me what quantity of water is used to cleanse, say a hundredweight of wool 2–I would rather not answer the question. - 3462*. Is some of the Australian wool made into fine cloth in this neighbourhood without any mixture with shoddy ?–Yes. 3463*. Do you find that you can thoroughly clean the wool for that purpose in the machine —Yes, you can thoroughly cleanse it. 3464*. Without any difficulty —Yes. 3465*. In Gloucestershire, where they make similar fine cloth, I have asked them several times, and the answer has been that the machine does not sufficiently clean the wool?—On the average the wool can be got clean, but there are special cases where it is very difficult. 3466". There are some kinds of wool which you doubt whether you could clean by that process?—Yes. 3467*. (Chairman.) Do you know of a process of extracting carbonate of potash, from wool by steeping the wool in water before it is washed 2–I am not aware of anything of the sort in this neighbourhood, but I have heard the matter spoken of, viz., of extract- ing oil from wool on somewhat a similar process to that used in crushing seeds. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 117 3468%. There is a French patent by which a very considerable per-centage of carbonate of potash is taken from wool 2–I do not doubt it. 3469*. (Professor Way.) Messrs. Teall is working it 2–Yes. Fleece wool is rich in alkali, 3470*. (Chairman.) As science progresses and methods of utilizing every waste product are found as in gasworks you gentlemen in Yorkshire will get very rich —I think that there is a great amount of matter in fleece wool which may be extracted so as to be utilized, but which is now lost. 3471*. (Professor Way.) The matter lost is princi- pally grease I suppose?—Yes. 3472*. (Chairman.) Are you aware that Messrs. Teall is also working a patent for extracting indigo from the dye refuse, and getting quite as good a price for the indigo recovered as for new indigo, and that the recovered indigo is better in quality?—I am aware that some of the dye nets have been used for that urpose. 3473*. I do not refer to dye nets, but to the refuse? —Dyers in this neighbourhood extract all that they ut in. p 3474*. (Professor Way.) Of the indigo which you use the whole does not stay in the cloth *-The whole of it is not entirely fixed, but if the operation be pro- perly conducted a very small proportion of it is not fixed. 3475*. In Gloucestershire, Mr. Harrison and myself have been told that not three per cent. of the whole indigo is to be found in the cloth 2–In a very delicate apparatus you may waste it; 30 years ago I was prac- tically an indigo dyer, and I am an indigo dyer yet, though I do not take any practical part in it, and I think that I am perfectly conversant with the process so as to convince me to the contrary of what you suggest. 3476*. Perhaps you mean that all which can be taken out of the indigo is taken out 3–I believe that indigo is economized in this neighbourhood as closely as it is possible to do it. I do not deny that some of the indigo goes away, but I certainly demur to the propor- tion stated by you. 3477*. (Chairman.) Do you know the process of gas making 2—I know it theoretically, but not practically. 3478*. Do you know that until recently gas products were a great nuisance?—Yes. 3479*. And are you aware that now there is not a single product which cannot be utilized 2–I am aware of it. 3480*. And that you can carry on gas making in perpetuity without passing any foul refuse from the premises —Refuse will not be passed because it has become too valuable. 3481*. There is nothing that will pollute a stream —No ; the utilization in that department is most astonishing. 3482*. And the gas tars, which formed the greatest source of pollution and were the most difficult to get rid of, have now turned out to be the most profitable * —That is perfectly correct, 3483*. And enormous fortunes have been made from them —I believe so. 3484*. (Professor Way.) I suppose that it is the fact that in the ordinary process of manufacture the value of waste products is inconsiderable as compared with the general trade carried on, and it is only when it becomes an absolute necessity to attend to waste products that you much economize?—Exactly so. 3485*. They are what may be called bye products, which are not worth having —Yes; and some of the premises are placed in such a position that you cannot utilize those bye products in a town like Huddersfield; they are very much cramped, and there is not space to do so. 3486*. (Chairman.) I suppose that trade regulates itself in the public market by the lowest seller, and that there is a tendency to bring down other manufac- turers to his prices —As a matter of course if one man can produce goods cheaper than another he has the privilege of selling them more easily, but his neigh- bours soon ascertain how it is accomplished, and they follow in the track. 3487°. With regard to river pollutions, if any special legislation took place for this portion of York- shire so as to increase the cost at which cloth could be made, and if at the same time the rest of England were not so dealt with, might not such legislation se- riously prejudice Yorkshire trade 2–Yes; if we were put to an enormous expense in purifying the water the increased expense of manufacture might drive the trade away. I trust that nothing of the kind will be done. 3488”. Do a great many of the cloths made in this district go abroad –Yes. 3489*. Legislation then would affect the competition with other countries 2–Yes. 3490*. You have not only home manufacture to con- tend with but foreign –Yes. 3491*. Then it would become a question as to the cost of purification, whether it would be worth while to carry on the trade or not ?–I believe that an abun- dant supply of water may be obtained for manufac- turing purposes at a much less cost than by the whole of the water being purified after the manufacturers respectively have made use of it. 3492*. You think that by having impounding reser- voirs, and utilizing the water in a proper manner, a very much larger body of water might be made avail- able and at a less cost than by attempting to purify the waste water from the different manufactories 2– Yes; my scheme would be to have reservoirs, and to pass down water in a pipe of 18 inches or 2 feet diame- ter, and that all who required it should take it out and should pay in proportion to the bore, and from that revenue the expense of the construction and manage- ment of the reservoir should be paid. 3493*. You have stated that for one purpose you are using 100,000 gallons of water a day. At Dews- bury they are paying willingly 6d. per 1,000 gallons, that would be 50s, a day for that volume of water 2– Yes. 3494*. Would it be worth your while to pay 50s, a day for an absolutely pure soft water ?—No, not for the purpose which I have spoken of. 3495*. But for some selected purposes it might be worth it —Most decidedly it would. 3496*. Those would be very costly waterworks in- deed which would not get a large income by the sale of water at 6d. per 1,000 gallons –It is undoubtedly a very large price for manufacturing purposes. 3497*. Ordinarily 3d per 1,000 gallons is a paying price – At Dewsbury the source is at double the distance compared with the distance from Huddersfield of the source from which we might obtain a sufficient quantity of water, provided there was not a great opposition in Parliament. The Huddersfield Water- works Commissioners applied to Parliament last session, and spent a great deal of money and failed in their application. H they could have power without much opposition I fully concur with you that the water would be delivered in Huddersfield at less than 3d. 3498°. In this country it is very improbable that a law will ever be passed which will enable one pro- prietor to take water from another proprietor without arbitration or some fair settlement 2–We should give compensation. 3499°. (Professor Way.) Your plan of supplying pure water would leave the rivers untouched 2–Yes. 3500*. And any people who suffer at the present moment, in districts lying out of your reach, from im- purities thrown into the river, would still suffer 2– But the arrangement of reservoirs taken in connexion with a prohibition against throwing in any solid mat- ter into the river would greatly relieve the uisance, and I do not think that the health of the district suffers from the river being polluted. I am aware that some evidence to that effect has been given, but I do not think it has been correct. 3501*. Do you imagine that it would cost any very large sum to purify the water which you use, anything HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. E. Eastwood. 25 Oct. 1866. P 3 II 8 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, HUDDERS- like 500I. or 1,000l., or even 2,000l. 2–You must take treating waste water by chemical means with a view to FIELD. into account that many premises have not the room. purification?—Just so. - 3503*. (Professor Way.) And you gain two objects E *…d 3502*. (Chairman.) If persons can afford to pay at the same time; you get water for your own use and anything like 6d. per 1,000 gallons for pure water 25 Oct. 1866. Mr. H. Brooke. there would be a very wide margin for profit after you get the river purified ?–Yes, you leave the water for the district pure. - The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at half-past 10 o'clock. Huddersfield, Friday, 26th October 1866. PRESENT: ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THoRNHILL HARRISON, Esq. | Professor John THOMAS WAY. Mr. HENRY BRookE (Huddersfield) examined. 3504. (Chairman.) What class of mill is yours ?– For woollen manufactures; our mills are called the Bradley Mills, a mile below the town. - 3505. On the banks of a stream 2–Yes, the Colne. 3506. How many hands do you employ —About 200. 3507. What power do you use ?–Steam and water. 3508. What proportion of power do you obtain from water 2–I believe we have on an average about 50-horse power; we have three water wheels. 3509. How long have you used water power – Ever since the mills have been built, 40 years ago. 3510. Do you not find any shortness of water — There is a short supply at times, and we get very little. 3511. Is the power as steady and as useful as when you first put it up —Quite so, and we should not like to be without it. 3512. Have any impounding reservoirs been con- structed at the head of the valley since your mills were established 2–Yes. 3513. The Holmfirth Reservoirs and others?— Yes. - 3514. Do they turn down the stream in a steadier volume of water —They do; they collect the water fresh and turn it out gradually. 3515. Do you dye –We do, every day. 3516. Have you any supply of water other than from the rivers or streams?—Yes, we have a bore of water from the canal as well. 3517. A bore hole into the subsoil –Yes. 3518. What depth is that 2–I believe it is from 70 to 80 yards deep. - 3519. When was that put down 2–20 years ago. 3520. Of what quality is that water as compared with river water P-It is hard ; we filter the river water and mix the two for dyeing purposes. 3521. Have you had a chemical analysis made of the separate and the mixed waters?—We had. The river water mixed with the pump water is softer than the pump water. 3522. What weight of coals do you burn in a year? –Over 40 tons a week. 3523. What is done with the ashes —Part of them go into the river ; we have a place where we put them, and when they rise above a certain level they go over into the river, and part of them are put on the roads. - 3524. Are there any mills situated above you ?— Yes, there are a large number on the streams above. 3525. And below as well?—Yes. 3526. What is the custom of your neighbours above you ; have you reason to believe that they let the ashes go into the river ?—I believe everything goes in ; the river is made the receptacle for every filth they make. 3527. Not only dye refuse, but spare ashes?—Yes, and materials from excavations and everything. 3528. Supposing that it was considered necessary for the benefit of the wool trade in the district to put the river under a Conservancy Board, would you per- sonally object to being brought under regulations to prevent your passing solids into the river ?—I should be pleased to come under such regulations if they were made general, and I believe such a measure would be of great advantage to the trade of the district as well as to health. 3529. Has the bed of the river been raised by accumulations since you can recollect it?— Yes, it has risen ; and I can give you a strong proof of it. Within the last two years we put in a new water-wheel; one of the old ones had got broken, and we had to put in a new wheel, and found that the new wheel must be 12 inches in diameter less than the old wheel in consequence of the bed of the river having been raised through excavated materials, and other heavy matters which had been placed there. 3530. Could you not get a tail flow capable of work- ing a wheel larger than that ?—We could not put a wheel in of the same dimensions as before without continually leaping in tail water. - 3531. If you attempted to level the river in order to get the tail water cleared away, would it cost you more than the additional power would be worth – Yes; and the bed would soon be filled up again under present circumstances. 3532. Have you a lodge at your mill?—Yes; a lodge or fore bay ; it is a goit half a mile long ; we draw from that, and so the water comes to the wheels at a higher level. 3533. You avail yourself of the river to work your power –Yes; we pay to the reservoir company on an 18 feet 6 fall, but we have not so much now. 3534. Have you ever to cleanse the silt out of that goit 2–Yes; the silt is very heavy and we cleanse the goit two or three times a year; the work takes about three days and occupies 16 or 18 men ; the refuse goes into the river. 3535. As you are put to this serious cost, has it occurred to you what might be done with this mud — We think that if the mills above us were made to put in only what was proper we should have much less of this flushing to do than we have at present, and we should not object to cart it out if the same was also done by our neighbours. 3536. If you had only the river water to deal with you would face the cost of maintaining your own works in proper order, without damaging the river for others below you?—Yes, and be very glad to do so. 3537. Do the basements of your mills stand in such a position as to suffer any injury from heavy floods?— We have several times, when the water has been very high, suffered, still we are pretty well raised above. When the water is high, we get it into the tepid wells and into the foundations, and the bottom of the base- ment. 3538. As that is so now, and you have evidence that the bed of the river has been raised from accumula- tions, if further accumulations take place, would not RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 119 the amount of injury you suffer be increased – Certainly. 3539. The basement of your buildings and the machinery as they are at present situated might be seriously damaged —Yes; at the present time, when the river is high, we let the basement rooms stand idle until the river falls. 3540. Was that the case when you first began to work at these mills?—They were not first established by us, but it has been the case frequently, and it is getting worse. I believe formerly it was not so bad; it is a fact that we have had to make a drain since we bought the place to take off this water, and put in puddle too. - 3541. Do you make much soap waste in washing your cloth 2–Yes; and I have got some samples here of the class of stuff that we turn in. 3542. Have you made any arrangement for the purification of it by Messrs. Teall and Company's process –We shall have that in operation in the latter part of next week. 3543. Up to this time the refuse has gone into the river ?—Yes, and it is going in now. 3544. From this time you expect that you will be able to keep a considerable part of that refuse out of the river?—No doubt, or the man who has agreed to take it will be a heavy loser in putting up the work himself. 3545. Is it the waste from the wool that you are about to preserve 2–It is the waste from the cleansing of the cloth. 3546. (Professor Way.) Do not you cleanse the wool?—Yes; but that waste still runs into the river. 3547. You do not use soap enough to make it worth while to purify it 2–We do not use soap in cleansing the wool. 3548. Did you hear the evidence given yesterday by Mr. Abbey —Yes, I did. No doubt there are some small inaccuracies in the report which Mr. Abbey read, but, generally speaking, it is a very good and truthful one. 3549. Those inaccuracies may be rectified by a little examination ?—Yes, but they amount to very little. 3550. What amount of water do you stipulate for from the impounding reservoirs to come down daily —I have no idea. 3551. What do you pay for the quantity supplied to you ?–Yes, we pay to the Reservoir Company, the Mill Owners Company, about 19ſ, a year ; to the Holmfirth Reservoirs; and I think about from 9/. to 10l. to the Wessenden Reservoir Company. 3552. You purchase the water and the Reservoir Company’s stipulated volume of water is let out to be used by all the mills in succession one after the other, according to their power or according to the fall - Yes; each mill pays according to the number of feet of fall; the mills higher up pay a higher rate. 3553. You have the water in succession as it comes from one mill to the other —Yes. 3554. I presume you make a private arrangement for impounding or letting the water go?—Exactly. 3555. When you have emptied your goit and cleansed it you are able then to prevent the volume of water passing so quickly as it would otherwise do down to your neighbours ?–Yes, and of course the larger the reserve the longer we can hold the Water. 3556. Do you buy water for dyeing or washing purposes —Yes, from the canal company. 3557. Are you satisfied with that water?—No, I am not. 3558. It is not so clean as you would like it?— Nothing like it, and it is partially filtered too. 3559. Does it come from the broad canal?—Yes, the one below the town, the canal basin. 3560. If waterworks were carried out on a larger scale, and a pure supply brought down at a moderate cost, is it probable that you would use that water for washing or for dyeing purposes?—Yes; we should be glad to get the best water we could. I think it is very possible and quite practicable, that we could each use our own refuse water, so that all might find the clean water sufficient for cleansing purposes without taking the canal water. - - 3561. Do you know anything of the water supplied to the town of Huddersfield by the company –Not much. 3562. Is it sufficiently abundant for the wants of the population ?-Nothing like it; in a dry season, for instance, last year, my father went for three weeks without getting a drop. 3563. During that time the persons who relied upon that supply would suffer considerable incon- venience 2–Yes, and they had to cart it from other places for domestic purposes. 3564. If your father, being in good circumstances, suffered in that way, I suppose the poor would suffer to a still greater extent?—Certainly ; but the town generally would not be so short as he was ; his house stands a little high, and perhaps the mains are not sufficient, they are only turned on partially for an hour at a time, and the water perhaps did not rise to the height of his house before it was drawn away to places in the town; we never have it on for more than an hour or an hour and a half in a day. 3565. Have you seen any of the works where purification has been attempted 2–I have not. 3566. Mr. Abbey mentioned some mills at a place called Shepley –Yes, I have heard of them. 3567. Have you drawn any conclusions from what you have heard?—I fancy that all mills could not purify water in the way that those two mills have, because all mills have not a sufficient lift, or sufficient land on to which they could pump it. 3568. If there is to be a general purification dif- ferent modes must be resorted to, adapted to the peculiar circumstances of each case?—Yes. If all mills had a lift, as in the case of the two mills which Mr. Abbey mentioned, the water could be purified and again used by the party who had it. We used to do so to a fair extent, and by pumping this water on to the grassland we grew almost double crops of grass. 3569. What quantity of water do you use for dye- ing and washing purposes?—I cannot tell; but Mr. Abbey calculated the amount we should use from the pans. 3570. What weight of wool do you pass through your mills in a year —The wool would average about 800 pounds a day and other materials of course in addition—mungoes, and so on. 3571. Do you know what weight the whole would be?—No, but it would be a very great deal. 3572. You do not wash the mungoes?—No ; the mungo is washed in the cloth. 3573. (Mr. Harrison.) The mungo goes through all the processes, except wool washing in the first in- stance –Yes. 3574. (Chairman.) Have you considered the mode in which prevention of pollution might be carried out? —I believe that we could purify the water before turning it back into the river from the scouring vats. I believe, that if we are compelled to keep the foul water out of the river, science will bring out something that will enable us to purify the water at a small ex- pense and in a small compass. I think it would be easy to do the thing if we set about it. 3575. The next question will be as to the jurisdic- tion or authority that should exercise power over the whole district, so as to see that each manufacturer obeyed the law, do you think there should be a local board 2–I think first that there should be local boards and then that there should be some head board, taking in the whole watershed of this district. I should like it to be made compulsory for every man to carry out purification. 3576. You would not approve of a Government board to sit in London and appoint officers to come here and exercise control over you?—No ; I think it would be more practicable for the matter first to go through a local board, and if it could not be carried out, then it should be referred to a higher power. HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. H. Brooke. £6 Oct. 1866. P 4 120 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. H. Brooke. 26 Oct. 1866. 3577. Have you attempted to prevent the smoke nuisance at your mills?—We did at the mill at Holm- firth, 10 or 12 years ago, and prevented a great deal of nuisance from the smoke, but we had burnt our boiler through rather quickly, and besides, the principle was not a profitable one. 3578. Did you use a patent apparatus?—Yes, 3579. (Mr. Harrison.) I understand that you pay to the reservoir companies a certain sum for the water as power?—Exactly so, only for power. 3580. Therefore you are interested in the water from the time it leaves the reservoir 2–Yes. 3581. If the mills intermediate between you and the reservoir were to divert the dye and other waters on to the land that would diminish your power 2– Certainly. 3582. And to that you would object —If the quan- tity diverted were great we should. 3583. That mode of purification probably will not be carried out 2–I hope not. I would prefer that chemistry should do something to purify the water at a small expense. A few hundred thousand gallons would not be much for a man to purify, but it is a great deal if it is turned into a stream; one small drop does a great deal of harm. 3584. You would have the restrictive power ex- tend to all refuse from mills, whether ashes or spent dyewoods, or pollution caused by the dyeing process and soapsuds?—Yes, exactly. 3585. You would be willing to comply with such restrictions if every other manufacturer was obliged also to do the same 2—Yes, I think it would be advan- tageous to the trade generally, provided it were only a small cost that we were put to ; we should be all gainers by having pure water of a bright colour. 3586. You think it is possible to obtain such water? —Yes, I think so, and very easily. 3587. (Chairman.) At all events it is quite possible to try to do it?—Yes, and I think it is very easy to be done. 3588. Have you ever tried any experiment yourself? —Yes, we have had river water purified. 3589. By what means ?—At the present time we filter the water that we pump from the river for dye- ing purposes to a certain extent and use it again; it would not pay us to purify it all. 3590. (Professor Way.) You take the river water and try to purify it 2–Yes, and then turn it back into the river. 3591. (Mr. Harrison.) Is that process successful ? —The water is much better. 3592. (Chairman.) Filtering by sand for manufac- turing purposes, as bleaching and paper making, is certainly more than 40 years old –It is a common thing here to filter water for dyeing purposes now. 3593. It requires a considerable area of ground 2– Yes, it does. Some parties are filtering for dyeing purposes and not for cleansing. 3594. There should be not less than a square yard for each 500 gallons per day ?—I think it would require quite that ; but I think filtration can be done by a much better process than by sand. 3595. (Mr. Harrison.) From the returns of mortality there appear to be five divisions in Huddersfield ; in which of those are your mills 2–We are not connected with any of them. We are in the parish of Dalton, although the mills are called the Bradley Mills. There are about 30 cottages, and the mortality there has been very great, especially amongst children. 3596. The mortality appears to have been strikingly different in the different districts. The average mor- tality during the five months ending December 31, 1865, was at Bradley only 12 per 1,000. At Dalton it was 56 per 1,000, and throughout the whole return a similar kind of difference exists. Can you account for that very great disproportion –I cannot. 3597. (Chairman.) I think you stated that you could not remember what the Wessenden Company charge a year per footfall per horse-power –I think it is something like 24s. I may say that out of this lodge of ours some of our neighbours draw water, and therefore that reduces the charge to us from what it would be. 3598. I see that the company are empowered to charge 25s., but you think the present rate is 24s. ?— Yes. 3599. (Professor Way.) I understood you to say that if water used by manufacturers underwent a pro- cess for separation of all objectionable matter, and was then thrown into the river, the water of the river would be suitable for manufacturing purposes —Yes, I believe so. 3600. You would hardly expect chemistry to extract all the salts from the water which had been thrown in 2—I think it would take out a very large proportion. 3601. In all probability the colouring matters are in suspension ?—I think so. 3602. As to the lime and salts which are thrown in, would they be objectionable if left to be mixed with the river water —No, not for cleansing purposes. If the colouring matter was taken out we could then use other things, soaps and so on, that would counteract those salts. 3603. We know that the water you receive from Holmfirth and Wissenden is very soft —Yes. 3604. In a process of purification where chemicals are employed the water will naturally get harder 2– Yes. 3605. After separating the colouring matter and the solid matter in suspension the hardness may be increased, and you may not be able to remove it — Just so. 3606. Is the water so cleansed likely to be very hard considering its volume —I do not think so. 3607. The hardness of the water would not be an absolute impediment to its use for washing and cleansing purposes —No ; we prefer soft water. Every particle of dirt taken out would make the water so much better than it is now. 3608. If tolerably bright and without colour, and not of extreme hardness, the water would be suitable for your purpose –Yes. 3609. And that you believe can be accomplished at a reasonable cost by chemical means ?—I think so. I believe that chemical science will soon invent some- thing that will accomplish that. 3610. If you are obliged to seek for it —Just so. At the present time we are obliged to seek for nothing, and we make the easiest matter we can of it. It is of no use for one man to attempt to do otherwise unless all are compelled to do so too. 3611. Supposing the process required subsiding tanks in which the water used in one day should be stored for deposit with alternate tanks to fill on alter- nate days, do you think that it would be practicable in a majority of the mills —I think so, unless they were large tanks. If they were large tanks it would not be possible without getting more ground. We could do it very well. 3612. Have you a larger space of ground than the majority of mills —I think we have more than other mills generally, but some have a larger space than we have. 3613. I suppose it is desirable to deal with the liquid as it comes by mechanical filtration ?–Yes, to clean it as it comes, and clean it as it goes. 3614. So as not to have to store it —Yes. 3615. (Chairman.) You stated that you had brought some samples of the water here 2–Yes. This is a sample (handing in the same) from the washing of wool. There has been no soap used there at all. 3616. (Professor Way.) Has anything else been used ?–A little ammonia. 3617. And urine 2–Yes, that is all. 3618. Was it carbonate of ammonia —No, soda- ash partly and other things. 3619. Do you mix ammonia with soda-ash — Yes. 3620. Then it is sulphate of ammonia —It is principally soda-ash and urine. 3621. Do you use any substitute for urine —Yes, soda-ash is one of the substitutes. We keep a man RIVERS COMMISSION:–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 121 continually collecting urine, and we mix the two. We put a little in the vat where we raise the scour before the wool is washed. - 3622. If you used soda in any quantity would not that injure the fibre –Yes. 3623. Why do you not use soap —Because it is too expensive. 3624. Otherwise, I suppose, soap would be the best thing to use —Yes. 3625. Just some before and some after 2–Yes; we use soap when we come to the cloth. 3626. Is it only human urine that has been used ?– Yes. - 3627. No pig's urine —No. We sometimes use it for the cloth, but not for the wool. We employ a man and a horse and cart continually collecting urine. We get two or three large barrels a day con- taining three-quarters of a ton each. This bottle (pointing to the same) contains the water from black dye. The first sample goes into the river when we have done with it. 3628. Is there any reason why it should be kept out 2–It would grow large quantities of grass if it could be pumped on to land. 3629. Has it grown large quantities —Yes. 3630. I understand that this bottle (pointing to the same) contains water in which wool has been steeped and washed 2–Yes; the wool is first steeped in the tank, and then it is put into the wash, and there knocked about with a long stick, and then they let the water out and let another wash through, and so wash the wool a second time. 3631. There is a soaking vat and a washing vat 2– Yes. 3632. Is a large quantity of water put in 2–Yes, a very large quantity. I think there would be half a ton of water to something like 50 pounds of wool; including the two washes there would be about three quarters of a ton to a ton, but there is a great differ- ence. Some people use much more water than others. To 50 pounds of wool something like a ton of water is used. 3633. Nothing more is done to the wool —No, it is then dyed. That (pointing to the bottle) is from the black dye, logwood, cam-wood, and iron and copperas. 3634. It is possible that this refuse water would not filter readily as it is, but that by some chemical treat- ment it might be made to filter —I think so, but that is merely my opinion. 3635. Would this black refuse become absolutely colourless by subsidence 2–Yes, I think so. It is bright at the top now. 3636. This (pointing to the bottle) is a specimen from only one kind of vat 2–That is the black and the worst I consider. 3637. (Chairman.) This is from the beck, is it mot ?–No, that is from the vat before it runs into the beck. This bottle (pointing to the same) contains water from the washing machines, from the washing of cloth, and this (pointing to the same) is that for which we are now putting up an apparatus in order to get the greasy matter out. 3638. What is the quantity of that black refuse which is passed into the river ?—Mr. Abbey, I think, has calculated it at 1,425 gallons. 3639. (Professor Way.) Does that come direct from the vats?—Yes. 3640. How much more would the water that is used to wash with amount to ?—Twenty times as much. 3641. The first of that water is of course bad — Yes. We do not wash the wool after it comes out of it ; we do not wash it, not until it is made into cloth. Some people do, but we do not. 3642. 1,400 gallons in round numbers is all that you have to discharge of dye water –Yes. 3643. To what quantity of wool would that water be applied ?–We use about 800 pounds of white wool per day to 1,400 gallons of water. 3644. Then what is done with the wool after that —After that the wool is dyed and scrabbled, and made into cloth, and then when it comes out of the loom it is cleansed. 3645. (Chairman.) Are you to receive a lump sum from Messrs. Teall and Company for this refuse º- So much a year. 3646. According to the quantity of material they extract from it —No, they offered a certain price. We did not know what they would make out of the bargain, and we thought it better to accept their offer than to let the refuse go into the river. 3647. (Professor Way.) In your arrangement with these gentlemen have they put any restriction upon you as to the quantity you are to supply them with ?— No, they merely take what we make. 3648. Do they take only the washing after the first process *—Just the washing from the cloth. 3649. Do they take away all the water that you use in washing the cloth 2–Yes. 3650. You throw none of the soap into the river ? —None. 3651. Nor the grease after the cloth is made 2– No. 3652. In other districts we have been informed that Messrs. Teall and Company do not take away all the water —They are putting up an apparatus at the place where they get the water, and they will deal with all of it there. 3653. In other places the practice is this, that at a certain time when the water begins to get purer, con- taining less soap and grease, it is passed into the river without being taken by Messrs. Teall 2–They will deal with all of that. 3654. Has sufficient experience been gained to justify you in thinking that they will be successful ?— I do not know. 3655. Is their apparatus at work in other places 2 —Yes. 3656. You have not seen the liquid that follows after their process has been applied ?–No, it is not working yet with us. - 3657. If Messrs. Teall's process for extracting grease could be improved so as to take out this colouring matter (pointing to a bottle), do you think it might be fairly insisted upon —The party who has contracted with us says that the water will leave his cisterns comparatively pure, so that if the water is then put into a bottle you will see no colouring matter in it. He says that it will have a yellow tinge and nothing In Ore. 3658, You have stated, I think, that to use dye water on land would be perhaps the best way of getting rid of it if it were possible for all persons so to deal with it —I believe that if the first sample of water that I produced could be put on to land the land would grow a double crop of grass, and anyone would make a large profit by it. 3659. Suppose that a manufacturer at one spot had no land upon which he could so use it, do you think it would be possible for the occupiers of 10 or 20 mills to combine and so to deal with it 2–I cannot say. I believe that the majority of manufacturers would not have the opportunity of placing it on land, only a few of them would. I believe that some chemical process could be adopted, and that would be safer than having the refuse pumped on to land. 3660. You believe that these different samples might be chemically dealt with it —Yes. This bottle (handing in the same) is a sample of the river water as it was on Wednesday, after very much rain had fallen, and when there was a very large flow of water. 3661. (Mr. Harrison.) Have the parties to whom you sell this soap refuse any power over the quantity that is delivered into their tank P-None at all. 3662. From the evidence we have received in other cases it appears that the man in charge of the cleansing process is paid so much a year to turn the refuse off at a certain point —I believe that all ours will run into one tank, and then be run into other tanks. 3663. That appears to be the usual system --That is Q 17159.-2, HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. H. Brooke. 26 Oct. 1866. 122 RIVERS COMMISSION:---MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, FIUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. H. Brooke. 26 Oct. 1866. Mr. S. Armitage. the way in which the person with whom we have con- tracted is doing it. All the water from these machines will run into the first tank, and be pumped out of that into others. 3664. He cºnnot divert the water. You send it away into his tank, and to that tank it must go?–Yes, just so ; but when the tank is full the liquid will of course run away, and so there will be a great loss to him. 3665. (Professor Way.) Will you be kind enough to furnish the Commissioners with samples of these four waters in large quantities —Yes. 3666. (Chairman.) Has any litigation taken place that you are aware of with regard to passing solids into the river ?—Yes. 3667. Can you mention any special instances?— Yes ; we have been summoned for doing it. 3668. Who summoned you?—A neighbour above us. We had put ashes in, and he summoned us to the county court for doing so. He alleged that by doing so we were raising the bed of the river and throwing his wheel into back water. We went on thinking that it was merely a personal matter as he had not taken notice of our neighbours, and we thought that we should be able to set up a prescriptive right, be- cause we had done it so long. However, he showed us in the county court that there was no right to do it. 3669. You had a restraining power exercised over you?—Yes; we were fined 51, and the judge stated that it was the lowest fine he could inflict, but that it we were brought there again the fine would be 50l. 3670. Then the common law of the land, it appears, is strong enough to reach that form of pollution?— Yes, I have no doubt of that. 3671. But to put the machinery in motion one neighbour must summon another ?– Yes. At my instance a meeting was called at the “George Inn,” Huddersfield, to consider whether we could not put a stop to this practice, and then everybody, or the few who attended, appeared to feel that any person who might be proceeded against would think it a personal thing, and so the attempt ended in nothing. I offered with five others to pay men to walk the banks just to see who did put in this heavy matter, and then sum- mon them, but we did not succeed. That was in 1865, Sir John Ramsden's agent met us most fairly, and promised to do anything he could. At that time all the excavated materials were put into the river at the Long Bridge, which he stopped. 3672. Are you aware that from the mills in the Lockwood Road the ashes are systematically put into the river?—Yes, it is generally so with them, whether they pay water rates or not. 3673. Every person riding along the road can see it 2–Yes ; you can see it at nearly all the mills. 3674. Have any proceedings been taken against those persons?—I have not heard of any excepting Our O.W.In Case. The witness withdrew. The witness subsequently informed the Commission that he had been mistaken in stating that the whole of his waste water was subjected to the process of soap extraction, that after giving his evidence he found that Messrs. Teall and Company, though at liberty to take the whole for that purpose, did in fact treat only the richer part, and was in the habit of shutting out the water from their tank as soon as they found it beginning to run bright. Mr. SAMUEL ARMITAGE examined. 3675. (Chairman.) Are you a mill owner –Yes. 3676. Is yours a woollen mill 2–Yes. 3677. For washing wool and dyeing it —Yes. I am not a manufacturer at present ; I am out of the business, and I let the mill to my sons. 3678. Where is the mill situated 2–At Shepley. 3679. Upon what stream —Upon a tributary to the river Calder ; I do not know that it has any particular name. 3680. What number of hands are employed at the mill?—From 250 to 300. 3681. Do you know what weight of wool is dealt with ?–Not exactly. 3682. Is dyeing carried on there 2–Yes. 3683. Is much water used ?–Yes. 3684. Where is the water obtained from ?–From some driftings and a boring we have made ourselves upon our own property; the water rises there. 3685. You take water from drifts and borings on your own property –Yes. 3686. Is it hard or soft water 2–Neither very hard nor very soft. 3687. Is there any ochre in it 2–No. 3688. Have you any idea what volume the boring produces in 24 hours?—About the flow of a two-inch Ipe. 3689. What pressure is upon it —Just a fair pressure. 3690. Four or five feet P−Yes. 3691. Is the water constantly flowing 2–We have reserves to collect it in wet seasons, and we use these reserves in dry seasons; there is not so much flow in a dry season. 3692. Is your mill described in Mr. Abbey's list of mills?– Yes, I believe he looked it over. 3693. When the water has been used for washing purposes, is it very much polluted 2–Yes. 3694. Is it of the colour of any of the samples in the bottles before you?—It is very similar to this (pointing to a bottle) I mean after the scouring of the wool, and it is similar to this (pointing to another bottle) after the cloth has been dyed. 3695. May we take it that these samples would represent fairly samples of water from your works —Yes. 3696. What did you do with that water after it had passed from your premises 2–It used to run into the stream to join the river Calder, but lately we have pumped it up on to some dry meadow land. 3697. What kind of property is below you?—There are other mills below. 3698. Does the refuse from your mill find its way into any ornamental property —No. 3699. Did it flow into natural watercourses below, and have you had an action brought against you for fouling the water –Yes. 3700. Why were proceedings commenced against you ?—The owner of the adjoining property said that the refuse from my mill was injuring his property, and he would not permit it. 3701. Who was he — Mr. Edward Hardy of Shepley. 3702. He owned the land but did not live upon it?—No, he lets it for farm purposes and not for mill purposes at present. 3703. He considered that your refuse injured his land for farming purposes —Yes; and he said that the cattle would not drink the water. That was the ground of his complaint against us, 3704. How long is it since that action was com- menced 2–About five years ago. 3705. Did you defend it 2–Yes. 3706. Where was it tried ?–At York. 3707. What was the result 2–A verdict for the plaintiff was submitted to on condition that the works were not to be stopped and the water was to be polluted as little as possible. 3708. You were required to use such means as were available to purify the water –Yes. 3709. What means did you use 2–We put down a tank to collect all the foul water from our works, we then put down a pump and pumped the water up on some dry land. 3710. What height was the lift —I do not know RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 123 the exact height, but there are about 15 acres of land that the liquid runs over. 3711. Are there 50 feet or 100 feet of lift 2–Not quite 50 ; I should think perhaps 30 feet. 3712. Do you know what size the pump is 2–It is a four-inch pipe. 3713. You have a tank in which to store the refuse water and that process goes on eight or 10 hours a day?—Yes, all the time the mill is going ; the tank is not always full. 3714. Do you put the water on summer and winter, in wet weather and dry, and in frost and snow — Yes, continuously day by day. 3715. Do you find that purification takes places as continuously as you put the refuse on ?–Yes, but we have to keep changing the spots to which we apply it or it is very injurious to the land. 3716. I suppose it would make a swamp —It eats the grass off. 3717. You use judgment and care in what you do? —Yes. 3718. If you apply it with judgment and care what are the results —The land produces much more grass. 3719. Will the cows eat the grass so produced just as readily as other grass 2–Yes. 3720. Does the grass produce as good milk or as good butter —Yes. 3721. And as good hay ?—Yes; a little coarser. 3722. What you grow are the natural grasses of the land 2–Yes, the fine grasses all disappear. 3723. Have you tried to grow Italian rye grass with it 2–No. 3724. The natural grasses have been fostered by the application of this refuse 2–Yes. 3725. You have been contented with that amount of success —Yes, we are quite contented, only I should say that we have to change the liquid ; after the liquid has been run on for a couple of years or so it requires a change, a little gas lime from the gas- works will very much improve it. 3726. You have not tried artificial grasses 2–No. 3727. Have you tried green crops, turnips or man- golds 2—No, and I fear it would not answer for them. 3728. How many acres do you say you have operated upon –From 15 to 18. 3729. This refuse has been more or less put upon them all 2–Yes, ours is very dry land, and I fear the process would not answer on land that required drain- ing. I believe it would not answer, the liquid would get into the drains and run away. 3730. Should you be surprised to hear that heavy clay is a very good disinfectant and purifier, perhaps better than sand 2–If there were no drains then the process might do better, but where we have drains we must keep the liquid out of that part. 3731. Because you think it would filter through too fast 2–Yes, it gets into the drains and so passes into a little beck. 3732. Your object is that it should combine with the earth, and that the earth should take out the colouring matter?—Yes. 3733. Do you see the water as it comes out 2– No, we never see it any more, or hear at all of it. 3734. Does the process pay you for the trouble you take —No, and I would not take the trouble if it was not that we have been compelled, for what with the expense of pumping, and the pump getting out of order, and the pipes filling up, the liquid is not worth saving ; I think perhaps that it may just pay the cost. 3735. The irrigation cannot be done without atten- tion ?–No ; every day and day by day. 3736. Does it entail any actual loss upon you ?— No, I believe that the extra quantity of grass pro- duced will pay for the expense. - 3737. If you balance the accounts fairly you may say that ?—Yes. 3738. You have to give attention and care and take a little trouble which does not cost money —Yes. 3739. If you had to perform the operation for any other person, and you charged your time for it, there would be a loss to that person 2–Yes. 3740. Your mill is exceptionally situated in having this area of land 2–Yes. 3741. As you came nearer to the town and within it where mills are differently situated the mode you adopt would not be available 2–I believe not. 3742. If the water is to be purified, it must be brought within a much narrower compass 2–Yes. 3743. As land has the effect of clarifying and brightening the water, I suppose we may expect that chemistry might discover something more compact, which would have a similar effect 2–1 believe so; but I very much doubt whether the water could be made entirely pure by chemistry ; we tried to filter it after the action was commenced against us, but for such a quantity as that filtration did not answer, the refuse closed the filter. 3744. Did you try the double process, deposition first, and then filtration ?–No, we let the liquid come from our works right on to the filter. 3745. Then I suppose it would cover the sand over as with a film of gutta percha –Yes, the filter got choked up. 3746. You did not try an intervening tank in which to deposit the solids —No. 3747. You do not know therefore what effect might be produced by the double process?—No, I do not. 3748. Have any other persons in the district within your knowledge been dealt with as you have been 2– Yes. 3749. Who are they –Messrs. Barnacott and Kenyon. 37.50. Whereabout are their works P – A little below ours. 3751. How long have you known the streams of this district —For the last 30 years. 3752. And you have seen the pollution gradually going on 2–Yes. 3753. Have you formed any opinion as to whether it is necessary to institute proceedings to prevent this pollution ?—It is quite necessary; it is very important that something should be done. 3754. I suppose the manufacturers who carry on trade in this district came here principally to avail themselves of the water 7–Yes. 3755. Of pure water as it was in the first instance 2 ––Yes. 3756. As trade has increased by the use of the water, the abuse and neglect which have been carried on have now destroyed the water –Quite so, and the condition of the water is also very injurious to the health of the public living in places through which the stream passes. - 3757. Can you give us any idea of what would be the difference in the cost of cartage or conveyance of material to and from your works as compared with works situated in the town or nearer to railways and highways –We have some little advantage in the case of coal, being very near to the pit, and we have always thought that one would balance the other. 3758. Do you get labour any cheaper ?–No, it is much the same with us. Wages are regulated by the same scale throughout the district. 3759. I suppose there is a difference in proportion, as a mill is favourably or unfavourably situated ; for example, to some mills there is a considerable ascent 2 —Yes. 3760. The cartage of wool to those mills would be a little more expensive 2–Yes, but the difference would be so small that it could hardly be reckoned in the cloth. 3761. Supposing an equitable rate was laid upon mills in the whole of the district that would be benefited by preventing pollution of the river; do you think it need be a rate so oppressive to trade that trade could not bear it 2–No ; I think that the trade would be able to bear a fair rate with a view to im- proving the condition of the river. 3762. If the work were carried out carefully and economically –Yes. HUD15FRS- FIELD. Mr. S. Armitage. 26 Oct. 1866. - sº Q 2 124 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. 3763. Do you wash your cloth as Mr. Brook described with soap 2–Our cloth is precisely the same, but our dyeworks are not large enough. Dyeing is mostly done off the premises. 3764. Do you think the soap in your refuse washing it would pay for being extracted 2–Yes. 3765. Do you do that?–No. 3766. Will you do so *—Yes, if if we get an offer that will make it worth our while ; if not, I think the soapsuds had better go with the other liquid on to the land, 3767. If any restriction could be put upon all manufacturers from pouring foul matter into the river, do you think that they had better be left to their own devices to carry out such plans as they might find easiest and cheapest?—Perhaps we should object to being put to a small expense. 3768, (Professor Way.) You might be glad of any assistance or suggestion, but you think everybody ought to be left to do it in his own way, so long as in the result purification is done according to a certain standard?—Yes, that would be quite right. 3769. I take it that the liquids you pump on to the land are, if carefully applied, beneficial to grass generally –Yes. - 3770. You say that if the liquid is left too long on one spot, it is apt to destroy the grass 2–Yes, it will eat it off. 3771. Would that not be the case with water if left too long on the land 2–No, I believe that clean water may be allowed to run on for many years without ever seeming to eat the grass off; it rather makes grass grow more. 3772. You have 18 acres of land 2–From 15 to 18. 3773. How long does this stuff run on at a time 2– For not more than two or three days at once, and then it is shifted and carried on to another part. 3774. It is the same in the case of sewage, where there is no manufacturing refuse sewage, is run on for three or four days, and then shifted ?–Yes. 3775. When so treated it does not injure the grass, except so far as destroying the feeble grasses 2–Yes, the white clover and fine grasses all disappear. 3776. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you collect any of the water that runs off the land, or is it all soaked in 2– It is all soaked in. We are obliged to have places for the liquor to be pumped up to on the land so as to make the thick part settle down. Only the very thin part is run on to the land, for we find that the stronger part of it is not so good for the land. 3777. (Chairman.) The colouring matter ?—Yes; we mix that up with some other things, and let it lie awhile. 3778. (Professor Way.) Supposing there were mills below you having water power, and you pumped large quantities instead of the small quantity that you do pump on to the land, and it disappeared ; is there any certainty that the liquid would find its way into the river again above those mills 2–I believe it is so filtered by the land that when it appears again it is quite clear. 3779. Do you feel certain that it would get into the river again above the next mill power so as to be useable by the mill next below you ?—I believe that they could not use it again. 3780. You say that this water disappears altogether ? —Yes. 3781. Where do you suppose it goes to ?—Into the rock. 3782. Does it ever get into the river again?–It may, but I have no idea where. 3783. If there was a large quantity of it, and it found its way down to a point below the mills below you there might be a question as to your right so to divert the water —Yes, decidedly ; but the water all rising upon our own property, we use it all at times, and not any leaves our place during a dry season. 3784. I understood you to say that you sent all your refuse water on to the land, both the dye water, and that which contained oil and grease ?—Yes. 3785. Do you now propose to extract the oil and grease ?—Yes. 3786. You are probably aware that acid is put into the dye water after it leaves the tanks, so that the oil and grease may be extracted 2–I was not aware of what was done to extract them. 3787. If there was acid in that water, what effect would it have on the land 2–I fear that it would not do well for the land. 3788. Should you suppose that dye water sent upon land without soap would not injure the land 2–I should fear that some dye water would injure it very much. 3789. (Chairman.) If the soap was extracted 2– Yes. 3790. You now send on the land all the water as it comes to you ?—Yes. 3791. Therefore it does not receive further dilution. You send it away just as it passes from your vats?—Yes. 3792. Have you noticed whether the application is more or less beneficial in dry or wet seasons of the year 2–In a wet season it will answer better than in a very dry season. 3793. Showing that by dilution it is more beneficial? —Yes, in a very dry season it appears to do harm. 3794. If there was a stream from which you could pump an additional volume of water into the liquid so as to dilute it, the effect of the application would be as beneficial in dry weather as in wet weather ?–I believe so. 3795. (Professor Way.) In the same way, if dye water is only prevented from being injurious by admixture with soap, you believe that it is the dilution from the soapsuds that is the cause of the dye water ceasing to be injurious 2–I believe so. 3796. The dye water, if you could mix river water with it, would not be injurious even if there was no soap with it 2–It might not, but I believe the dye of itself would be very injurious. 3797. (Chairman.) You mean dye water of the strength as it comes from your vat 2–Yes. 3798. But of the effect of dye mixed with a larger quantity of water you have had no experience?–No. 3799. (Professor Way.) Is it a fact that strong urine would destroy these pernicious qualities 2–Yes, urine is very beneficial for land. 3800. Undiluted 7–Yes, if it is not diluted, and only put on in very small quantities. 3801. In wet weather ?–Yes. 3802. (Chairman.) Would not undiluted urine put upon grass-land kill it *—Yes, if too much is put on, but if the urine be put on with a watering can very thin, its effect is wonderful. 3803. I suppose that a solution of guano would kill everything it touched if it were too strong –Yes. 3804. It is injurious when its strength reaches a proportion which can be ascertained by experiment 2 —Yes. 3805. (Professor Way.) It is not a question whether the dye is injurious per se; it is injurious on account of its strength, or its want of dilution ?–Yes. 3806. It might injure if strong, but diluted, it might not ?—I believe so. 3807. (Mr. Harrison.) The result is, that in the case of a town where large manufactures are carried on all this dye refuse might be turned into the public sewers with the sewage of the town, and be carried on to land below the town, and be used there bene- iicially —Decidedly. Mr. J. Armitage. 26 Oct. 1866. The witness withdrew. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 125 Mr. WALTER KENyon (Huddersfield) examined. 3808. (Chairman.) What business are you con- cerned in 2–Fancy woollen manufacture. 3809. Where is your mill situated —At Shepley. 3810. Near to the works of the last witness 2-A. little below him on the stream. 3811. What number of hands do you employ - About 200. 3812. What kind of power do you use –Steam power. 3813. What weight of coal do you burn per annum? —Not quite five tons a day. 3814. What do you do with the ashes?—They are accumulated, and we sell them to the town for the purpose of repairing roads. 3815. Are any of the ashes washed into the stream? —None. 3816. Do you wash your cloth and dye it as well ? —We dye and wash the cloth. 3817. Is your refuse like the samples on the table? —Yes. 3818. Would this (pointing to the same) be a fair sample of the refuse that you turn away ?–We do not turn any away. 3819. Do you produce any refuse like these (pointing to the same) – I think those are darker than ours. 3820. What is done with your refuse dye water – It runs into a tank and then we pump it on to the land. 3821. In the way the last witness said that he did : —Our plan is rather different. 3822. What led you to adopt that mode —At first, or after we had been at Shepley for nine or twelve months, we were informed that our neighbour was likely to have some unpleasantness, and we made a large filter bed and two swamps, and turned all the refuse water into one swamp, and then it ran over a wall into another swamp, and from that into a filter bed. 3823. By a swamp I presume you mean a settling bed 2–Yes. 3824. Where the solids would fall to the bottom by deposition ?–Yes, and there the liquid ran out into a filter. 3825. How was the filter made 2–With stones and ashes and sand. 3826. What area did it contain —The swamp was about 65 feet long ; the filter bed was 76 feet by 27. 3827. What was the first swamp in width”—About 2 yards in width. 3828. To what depth did you allow the material to accumulate P-About 18 inches. 3829. As the refuse water passed through the de- positing tank did fermentation set itself up 2–Yes. 3830. Did a scum rise to the surface 2–Slightly. 3831. In warm weather did the liquid smell very badly 2–No ; I cannot say that I noticed it. 3832. Did you see gases rising up in bubbles?–Yes. 3833. How did you arrange your filter 2–We put a wall across in this way (describing) and we had stones as large again as my fist, and we filled some two or three yards with those stones, and then we put another wall, and after that we put down some small stones, and then some ashes, the roughest we could get, and we put some small ashes in another bed, and then we made a bed of sand. 3834. What thickness of sand 2–I think it was a yard thick. 3835. What effect did that filter produce upon the material 2–It had an effect until about 3 o'clock in the afternoon or 4 ; after that the refuse began to accumulate in the filter; it could not get away, it came out and ran over the top into the river. 3836. You mean that it filtered so fast the refuse choked the filtering medium and it then overflowed into the river ?—Yes. 3837. As a filter it failed to act –Yes. 3838. The refuse coated the filtering materials and filled up the pores 2–Yes. 3839. While it did act as a ſilter the whole of the water passed through the bed and came out at the bottom P-Yes, 3840. In what condition was the effluent water 2– The water became quite clear, at least our own water did ; but when some parties who were cotton dyers situated above us sent down theirs, we could not filter that. 3841. You could not extract the coarser matter – No. 3842. What did your filtering arrangements cost you?—From 40l. to 50l. 3843. How long did you attempt to carry on that process?—As soon as we found out that filtration would not answer we put a pump up. 3844. Did you carry on the filtration for a week or a month P-Yes, we tried it for six months. 3845. Then you resorted to another process – Yes, but we pulled the filter bed up two or three times in order to improve it. 3846. Did you attempt to scrape the surface clean so as to keep up the action of filtering 2–Yes, we took out the stones and replaced them with fresh OlleS. 3847. Was there any filth in the bottom amongst the stones?—Yes, but the liquid did not go away fast enough. 3848. If the filter choked up at 3 o'clock in the day did you get it into condition for a fresh start next day ?–Yes, it was all right the next morning. 3849. And you went on repeating that process from day to day ?—Yes. 3850. Until you got tired with it 2–Yes, and it was so very expensive. 3851. (Professor Way.) Did you do nothing to it to make it fit for operation next morning —No, we did not. We had to clean it out about once a fort- night : first one bed and then another, we took them in rotation. 3852. (Chairman.) To what depth did you fill in over the surface of your filter —I should say we filled it up a yard deep. 3853. The foul water coming upon the top of the sand 2–Yes. 3854. Then the fact is that the filter did not filter fast enough 2–No, but it filtered very well until 3 o'clock. 3855. It got rid of the material up to that time, and then it began to choke up and the water flowed over ?—Yes. 3856. It would go on filtering but too slowly for the make of the water 2–Yes. 3857. It was not absolutely choked but the filter was not quick enough for the speed at which the water was made *-Yes. 3858. If you did not scrape the surface the filter yº still go on working again the next morning – €S. 3859. That showed that you had not area enough, or that the filter was too close 2–I think there was not area enough ; we had all that we could get there, but it was not enough for us. 3860. (Professor Way.) At what time did you start in the morning 2—At 6 o'clock. 3861. (Chairman ) Supposing you had had two or three more beds of the same size, a double or treble series, do you think you could have gone on better 2 —I have no doubt of it. If we could have had a filter four times as large I have no doubt that we should have succeeded. 3862. You failed, not because the filtering process was defective, but for want of area 2–Yes. 3863. (Professor Way.) It appears that out of 12 hours a day you could filter for nine hours?—Yes, but in the afternoon we turned more out from the yºung machines than we did in the forepart of the ay. - 3864. Do you produce more dye waste than Mr. Armitage does —Yes. - 3865. You have 7 acres while he has 202–Yes. 3866. (Chairman.) What do you do with the night soil at the mill?—That is all carted away and put on to land, HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. W. Kenyon. 26 oc. 1866. - Q 3 126. RIVERS COMMISSION:--MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. W. Kenyon. 26 Oct. 1866, Mr. R. Holliday. 3867. Are there privies there?—Yes. ºn 3868. The soil does not go into the river ?–No, we turn nothing into the river, except condensed water from the engine. - 3869. Could you not put that into the cooling pond, or is that too low 2–We do put it there in the height of summer, but there is not sufficient water coming down here (pointing to the model) for condensing purposes. - - - 3870. (Mr. Harrison.) Does the irrigation cause any foul smell upon the land?–No. 3871. Have any of your neighbours complained of it 2–Not one of them. 3872. Having so much land you are favourably situated I suppose; at all the mills they could not do as you can –No, it would be quite impossible. 3873. If persons not so well situated had actions commenced against them they must do something different from what you have been able to do 2–Yes, they would have to try filter beds again. 3874. (Professor Way.) Or something as a substi- tute 2–Yes; all the water we use we get from our own land. - 3875. (Chairman.) You possess an area that would enable you to have put three times the amount of filtering beds that you have 2–We could have made them a little larger but not sufficiently so, I think. 3876. (Mr. Harrison.) Your experience is that refuse from manufactories similar to yours can be filtered 2–Yes, I think so, if they have sufficient area, but there are very few I believe who have sufficient area. 3877. And the refuse could be applied to land with advantage 2–Yes, but it is an expense. I do not believe that it pays us for pumping it up. 3878. How many years have you pumped it on to the land?—About four years. 3879. Does the increase in your crops pay for the expense you incur for pumping at the works?--I think not. - 3880. Do you think that that arises from your not having a sufficient area upon which to put the refuse * —If we had a larger area I think it would be better for use. 3881. Did you hear the evidence given by Mr. Armitage upon that point —Yes; we shift the appli- cation every morning; a man goes every morning after his breakfast to attend to it. 3882. What quantity of refuse is yours as compared with that from Mr. Armitage's mill?—I think we have more than he has. 3883. To carry it out successfully, according to his evidence, you would require more land than he has –- Yes. 3884. And you have only about one third –Yes. This stream (pointing to the same) is fouled very much with ochrey water from coal pits and water that is pumped out of the pits, and in consequence the water that comes down the stream cannot be applied to any process of manufacturing. - 3885. Oo they work more than one bed of coal in the colliery –I believe they do. This water is very hard, and there is a deal of sediment in it. 3886. (Professor Way.) You stated that as the water came out from the filter beds it was quite clear 2– - You could not see the colouring matter, that appeared to be gone. - -- 3887. When the liquid has got into the tanks have you used it for condensing water for the engine?— Yes. - 3888. Is it not sufficiently clean to use for washing, or is the tank so situated that you could not use it for that purpose º-It is so situated that we could not use it. 3889. Would the liquor be sufficiently pure for wash- ing purposes if the tank were otherwise conveniently situated 2–I do not think it would be, because the ochrey water which it contains is so very bad. 3890. If everybody could purify the water as you do, and then for a certain number of hours in the day discharge it into the river, would it be fit to be used for washing purposes?—I should almost think not. 3891. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you had an oppor- tunity of judging of the purifying power of the earth after the water has passed over it : Do you ever see the water come out again —No, it sinks in, so that we do not perceive it. 3892. (Professor Way.) And weeps out, I suppose, along the edge of the bank - Yes, it gets into the stream low down. 3893. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you see it there 2– Sometimes we can. 3894. Is it then purified ?–Yes. 3895. This process prevents your extracting the oil and grease out of the refuse?—Yes. 3896. You would not like to put it on if those had been extracted out of it —No. I think that if we were to put dye refuse on alone it would injure the crop. - 3897. This process prevents your getting something by extracting the oil and grease ?–Yes. We had 20/. a year offered us by parties who undertook to extract the oil and grease; this sum we now lose in conse- quence of putting the whole liquid on to the land. We were afraid that by their chemical process further litigation would be caused, and therefore we did not accept the offer. - 3898. (Professor Way.) Supposing that the grease was extracted and that you were then to deliver on to the land the dye water, and the water coming from their grease extracting process, would that be inju- rious to the land?—That would depend upon the process by which they get the grease out. 3899. It would not be the absence of the grease that would make the liquid injurious P-No: it would be the chemical process to which the greasy water had been subjected. 3900. Do you know what it is?–No. 3901. You are perhaps not aware that there is an acid used in it 2–Yes, I am. 3902. You would not like to pump water containing acid on to the land 2–I believe it would do it harm. 3903. Do you believe that the water from the wash- ing of the wool would sufficiently counteract the water from the pans without the water from your washing machines, I mean without the water with the oil in it? —Yes; if you had a tank large enough to contain them all, and could so mix them together, but you must have all the water in a tank before you let your dye pans out at night. The witness withdrew. Mr. READ Holliday (Huddersfield) examined. 3904. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you a resident in Hud- dersfield?–Yes. 3905. Have you been for many years resident here 2 —Yes. 3906. Have you had opportunities of observing the river and its condition compared with what it was when you first knew it —Yes. 3907. Has it become very polluted within your recollection ?–Yes, it has. 3908. What business do you carry on 2–I am a manufacturing chemist. 3909. In Huddersfield Pi—Yes, 3910. (Professor Way.) What substances do you manufacture ?–I manufacture analine and products from gas-coal tar. - - 3911. What else?–All the articles that are required for making analine colours, such as arsenic acid, nitro- benzole, and phenic acid. - 3912. All those substances are made from expensive materials are they not?—Yes. - - - 3913. Such materials as you do not choose to waste if you can help it 2–Yes. - - 3914. Do you produce any refuse matter –I do not know that we do. - 4tivº RS COMMISSION:---- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE." 127 3915. Not in the production of the analine dyes – We have refuse from the colour works which i should call arsenious acid. 3916. Does that go out in solution 2–No, it is in an insoluble state; it is a precipitate. 3917. Do you oxidize it again into arsenic acid – Not as a matter of course ; it may be worth our while to do it. Some acid makers do it. 3918. That is to be done, and sombody perhaps does it for you?—No, we oxidize it ourselves; we oxidize the arsenious acid, but we get the refuse again ; we extract it after the colour is made. There is a certain quantity of residue which consists chiefly of arsenious acid. 3919. You do not use that again 2–No, because it is so dirty. 3920. Is is your practice to send it away ?—No, we keep heaping it up; we expect to have to use it. 3921. Is it in such a bulk as to be an inconvenience to you?—No. - 3922. You do not throw it in the river ?–No, we have no need to do that ; we think we shall be able to economize it at some future time. 3923. Is there any liquid which runs during that process at all, or does all the liquid go into the dye – No, the liquid left after crystalization is taken and the remaining colour precipitated with alkali; the liquid runs into the river after precipitation. 3924. Is that a large volume?—Perhaps 500 gallons a day. 3925. Is it coloured a little Pi—Yes. 3926. Have any complaints been made about it 2– No. 3927. Would it contain any arsenic *—I should think it would contain a little. 3928. You think you have extracted all that is of value to you from that liquid –Yes. 3929. Could you run 500 gallons a day into the common sewer P-No, we have not one. We use a private sewer jointly with a large dyeworks near us. 3930. Do you make alum or anything of that kind P —No. - 3931. Do you make salts of tin –No. 3932. Nor for mordants —No. 3933. Is there anything else you make 2–We have not quite given up distillation of gas tar. We have products of tar, oil, and pitch, and so forth, that we use for asphalting and burning. We sell the oils and we sell the pitch. 3934. What becomes of the water 2–The water is used by Mr. Marriott to make liquid ammonia from. 3935. You do not throw anything into the river from that source –Nothing whatever. 3936. Do you make anything else?—Nothing. 3937. So far as your works are concerned the injury done to the river is limited 2–Yes; there is a large manufactory that is used for woollen goods that I find power for, and we use the river water for condensing purposes. 3938. As any other manufacturer would do?—Yes. 3939. But that is in no way connected with your chemical works?—No ; we have a lamp factory, but there is no refuse from that. 3940. Is there anything likely to be washed from the arsenious acid into the river, or is it kept under cover? —Yes, and in time we shall convert it. 3941. What quantity of that have you?—Perhaps we have got 20 tons on hand. 3942. How many years has that been accumulating P —Three years. º 3943. Is it kept in barrels?—No, we have it heaped up. 3944. Under a shed?—No, a part of it is, and part is not. 3945. Supposing that heavy storms of rain fell and washed out the premises on the river side 2–But that refuse is 500 yards from the river at least. 3946. And no drainage leads from it?–No, it is in a field. 3947. Does it destroy the grass in its neigh- bourhood —Just on the edge of the heap it does, 3948. Is arsenious acid very soluble in water 2– Not at all : if it is it is very imperceptible. 3949. (Mr. Harrison.) Is there any point to which you wish to draw the attention of the Commissioners? —I have been asked by some gentlemen, before I came here, to inquire whether our river waters at various points have been taken and analysed. 3950. (Professor Way.) Do you think it is desir- able that that should be done –I think it is very important, because the last witness examined stated that where he was situated, ochrey water from coal pits destroyed the river water for any use for dyeing, and that the water was injurious for boiler purposes. We find down at our place that the water is very black and dirty, but it is good for boiler purposes and for condensing purposes, also it is better for those purposes down here than where he is. There is a large quantity of ochrey water in this country, and I have known it come and spoil the whole of the canal and stop the dyeworks. 3951. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you supplied power for the manufactories you have mentioned for some years?—For two years. I have always had steam boilers and engines. 3952. Have you found the effect of the water upon the boilers to vary in your experience –Yes. 3953. Do you find that the water improves or not for boiler purposes —As to the river water, I have not found that improve very much for boiler purposes; the land water I find very bad indeed. After you have made a well and sunk for water which is very much wanted the water is worthless for any purpose. 3954. You think that the water from the land is affected by any operations in the neighbourhood – I do not. 3955. Is it the same as it was 20 or 50 years ago? —Yes. 3956. Is the river water the same as it was 2–Yes as far as condensing purposes go, but for dyeing or any fine purposes, or chemical works, we cannot use it at all. 3957. (Professor Way.) I suppose you know that there are two kinds of hard water, water containing carbonate of lime which is softened by boiling, and water containing other salts of lime which is not softened by boiling 2—I suppose so. 3958. I suppose the first water is the one which first furs the boilers, I mean the water containing carbonate of lime 2–Yes. 3959. Do not the dyeworks in this district discharge a quantity of acids into the water 2—I should ques- tion very much whether there were not more alkalis thrown into the water than acids; but acids also are thrown in. 3960. Under those circumstances any carbonate of lime would vanish from the water 2–Yes, and be decomposed. - 3961. Whereas the probability is that the water you draw from the wells and springs of the district is very hard from carbonate of lime, and I suppose that water would not be fit for boiler purposes?— Never, so long as you go only to a certain depth, say 10 or 20 yards deep, but if you go below that you can get very good water, at other places you cannot get good water under 100 yards from the surface. 3962. You get the water of the main district 2– Yes. 3963. (Mr. Harrison.) Is it your experience that the river water causes as much incrustation on the boilers now as there was at any time within your recollection ?—Yes. I am desirous also of asking whether the sludge, the precipitate in the bed of the river, has been analysed, and what gases it contains. I take it that the water itself does no injury to health generally, but that it is the gases evolved that are injurious. I think it would be useful if we had an analysis of the precipitates, and ascertained what gas is given out during hot weather by our river. In our neighbourhood we have some dam stakes, and those dam stakes have impeded the sludge a good deal, and for perhaps 500 yards, in the summer time, the bed is HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. R. Holliday. 26 Oct. 1866. -- Q 4 128 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. R. Holliday. 26 Oct. 1866. - Mr. E. Brooke, jun. exposed to the sun ; I should like to know what that sludge is, and what gases it gives out. 3964. Will you tell us whether you think the matters which enter the river in the water which has been used for dyeing and other purposes can be readily separated, and at a reasonable cost by chemical or mechanical process —By mechanial processes I think they might be, with due care in the use of the water to keep the dyewater and the Sud water separate from all others, and to make the water to be dealt with into as small a volume as possible ; perhaps then they might be able to separate the matters. 3965. You do not think that it is impossible to do it?—I do not think it is ; perhaps it might be very costly, and it would be very necessary to increase the supply of water. If we were to take the river water as it is now and the canal water, and use it for manufacturing purposes, and then instead of passing it back fouled into the river or canal, send it into drains, we should have no river here at all; it would all have gone down the drains. 3966. Supposing every manufacturer was to take these waters and use them, and then purify them as far as he could, and restore them to the river, there would be no great diminution in the river water then P —Yes, there would be a good deal of evaporation during his manipulations. 3967. That occurs now does it not?—Yes; you would have to spread the liquid, as the former witness said he did, into tanks. I do not think there would be the same supply; what I want very much is a large supply of water. 3968. Have you observed the sludge of which you have spoken —Yes. 3969. Does it become a nuisance when it is so exposed ?—Yes it does. 3970. Is it injurious to health at all 2–I should say so; there is a good deal of nuisance in it. 3971. It is a nuisance and therefore you think it ought not to be allowed to remain in the bed of the river ?—Yes. 3972. Any steps that might be taken to prevent its being put into the river would be a benefit to those residing on the banks of the river ?—Precisely so. 3973. (Professor Way.) I believe that aniline dyes are used for scarlet and for delicate colours?—Yes. 3974. Do you find the demand for aniline dyes increasing very largely in this district –Yes, I think it is on the increase. 3975. Do you think that the dyeing of these aniline colours requires pure water, or can you do it with moderately pure water –With water moderately llite. 3976. Is the river water of this district good enough 2–No. 3977. The gas products from which you derive aniline are principally the gas tar 3–Only that. 3978. Do you obtain it from the large works in the town or from private works as well; manufactures who light their mills with gas —When I was engaged extensively in the trade of distilling tar, I got it from all sources; the fact is I have taken it from seven or eight different towns between this and Lancashire, but I have now given up the business a good deal and get tar only from Sheffield, I obtain it from the gasworks there ; I buy crude naphtha ; I begin with that. I extract naphtha for burning, and naphtha for dissolving indiarubber, and so forth, and also benzole for making nitro-benzole. 3979. Then I suppose you have two separate factories –Yes. 3980. The only product that you bring from the naphtha factory is the benzole, I suppose?—No, that is in the naphtha. 3981. Can you tell us whether it is worth a manu- facturer's while when he makes gas on his own premises to light his own mill, to keep the tar –Decidedly it is very valuable to keep and sell. 3982. Do they ever throw it into the river ?–I think not. 3983. Nor any of the other products 2–I believe that very deleterious products from gasworks are put into the river. 3984. More from small works than from large ones? —I do not know that. The Commissioners may remember that there was a case in London in which the gas company had this stuff pumped into barges, and taken and emptied into the middle of the river Thames; it is that kind of stuff that goes into the river here. - 3985. You do not believe that much of the tar is wasted in this district 2–No. 3986. They preserve it at all the works, and somebody goes round to collect it 2–Yes, and also the ammoniacal liquor is generally so disposed of. 3987. What you speak of as being sent into the river is the lime refuse principally is it not 2–Yes, and the liquid from the bottom of the purifier, and that which condenses in the street pipes; it is not made available for any purpose that I know of. 3988. Does not that contain ammonia?–Not of any use. In emptying the purifying boxes of course there are many gases. - 3989. There is the tar, the ammoniacal liquor, and the spent lime, those are the three principal products 2 —Yes. 3990. We have been informed that none of those have been thrown into the river ?–No, not in quantity. 3991. What is the fourth form of waste that you say does get into the river ?—That which condenses from purifying boxes, and from gas-pipes in the Streets. 3992. How does the water from the latter get into the river ?–It is pumped out I suppose ; there will not be much in the pipes in the streets at this end of the town, but in the pipes at the bottom of the town I think there is some. 3993. It is not in any larger quantity ?–No, but what there is of it is very bad. At many of the smaller gasworks on the banks of our river refuse tar and gas-lime along with ashes are put in ; the effect is seen at a considerable distance from the place. The witness withdrew. Mr. EDWARD BRookE, jun., examined. 3994. (Mr. Harrison.) You reside in this neigh- bourhood 2–Yes, I reside at Edgerton and I wish to speak more in reference to the place where my father lives, and I wish to represent him. 3995. How far is that from Huddersfield –A mile and a half on the low side of the town, on the Calder. 3996. Has your father any property adjoining the river ?—Yes. 3997. For what distance does it extend ?–Perhaps a quarter of a mile. There is both a river and a beck which run through my father's property; the beck is a sluice properly so called to conduct the water to the water-wheel. 3998. It is the Colne and a byewater 2–Yes; the river goes at the bottom of the land, and the bye- water, which is about half-a-mile long, passes close to the house, and within about 60 or 70 yards of the house there is a weir, and owing to the present im- pure state of the water it is extremely unhealthy to live down at the house. 3999. Has your father, or his family, suffered from ill health in consequence of the condition of the river ? —Yes, for a considerable number of years. The gases which are given out during the time the mills are at work affect the health of the family very much, and particularly my sisters, they suffer from nausea a good deal and are obliged to leave home for a considerable part of the year. 4000. Has this been an increasing annoyance?— Yes, it gets worse every year. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 129 4001. Has your father taken any steps to have the nuisance removed?—No ; I do not suppose he can, it is quite impossible for him to do anything. 4002. He is powerless –Yes; during the greater part of the day the waters are in the goit, and then the bed of the river is dry, and in the summer months the smell given off from the bed of the river is very bad, and the nausea caused is very considerable indeed. When my sisters go away from home they are quite well and in the enjoyment of good health, but when they come back, after a few days, they suffer again, and when they have been at home a short time they are obliged to go away somewhere else. 4003. Do you attribute that ill health, to the con- dition of the river ?—Yes, and to the bad gases that are given off. The evil happens more particularly during the summer months, and just now in the autumn months. 4004. (Professor Way.) Does the medical man who attends your family attribute their ill health to the same cause –Yes, to a great extent. 4005. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you experience nuisance from any other source besides the river ?—I do not know that there is anything else. 4006. Do you find the smoke in the neighbourhood a nuisance 2–Not much. - 4007. Is your father, or are you, engaged in any manufacture?—Yes, we are engaged in the manufac- ture of sanitary tubes. 4008. At the large works we have seen 2–Yes. 4009. Is there much smoke thrown out from those works?—No. 4010. They are on the road to Dewsbury —Yes; on the railway to Dewsbury. 4011. In the manufacture of those sanitary tubes is not a considerable amount of gases sent out 2– No coal smoke. 4012. Have you taken steps to remove the gases and smoke to a considerable height?—Yes, we spent a large sum of money in erecting a chimney, and put- ting all the flues into one stack. - 4013. Did you do that in consequence of complaints made by people in the neighbourhood —Yes. 4014. Has the health of the neighbourhood improved since you built that chimney —Yes, but the health of the neighbourhood did not suffer before from the smoke from our works, it was supposition on their al’t. p 4015. (Professor Way.) Any smoke you would make would be from the ovens —Yes. 4016. Is it difficult to heat kilns without producing smoke 2–No ; when the kiln gets to a pretty good heat the smoke is generally consumes when the kiln is once well fired. 4017. (Chairman.) How many years have you made tubes at your works —About 20 years. 4018. What clay do you use –Fireclay. 4019. Do you obtain it from coal workings?— Yes. 4020. Of what dimensions do you make the largest sanitary tubes?—We have made them 4 feet in diameter. 4021. With sockets 2–Yes. 4022. Where were they used ?–At Scarborough. 4023. How much per foot run do you charge for a 4-feet pipe?—I think they were three guineas a yard; but it does not pay to make them. 4024. What is the smallest size pipe that you make? —Two inches in diameter. - 4025. What are they used for 2–For conducting water in Wales down mountains. 4026. Not for draining purposes 2–No. 4027. Do you make soil pans?—No. 4028. Do you make arrangements for purifying sewers 2–Yes. 4029. Under a patent —Yes. 4030. Have you any of the diagrams here 2– No ; but I will send them up, if you please. 4031. How long have you made them 2–About four months. 4032. Have you sold many of them?–We have 17159.-2, sold a great many in the south, and in Lancashire too. 4033. Do you use charcoal in them 2–Yes, wood charcoal. 4034. Have you supplied any to the Dewsbury Commissioners?—No. 4083. What royalty do you charge to any person for making use of your ventilators?—We make them ourselves and supply them complete. 4036. You have registered them —Yes, we have patented them, gullies, traps, and ventilating ar- rangements. 4087. Where do you find the greatest demand for them –In London, Yorkshire, and south Lancashire, also in the United States. 4038. Do you make circular or egg-shaped tubes? —Both. 4039. Where do you send the egg-shaped tubes?— All into Lancashire. 4040. Have you any standard of thickness in pro- portion to the diameter –It is 1 inch in thickness for a diameter of 12 inches. 4041. And for a diameter of 2 feet what would the thickness be?—An inch and three quarters; and for a diameter of 30 inches a thickness of 2 inches ; and for a diameter of 3 feet, a thickness of 2% inches. 4042. Finished or in the mould?—2, inches burnt. 4043. What size must you mould the clay to pro- duce that thickness?—The clay does not shrink in the thickness, nor does it shrink in the diameter, at least not more than three quarters of an inch to a foot. 4044. It does not shrink in substance?—No. 4045. Do you arrange your coals so as to burn all the smoke –Yes ; the smoke of one kiln passes through the flue of another, and the smoke is thus, to a great extent, consumed. 4046. Have you ever seen Mr. Doulton's kilns at Lambeth 2–Yes. 4047. Are yours made on the same principle?—No, it is not that particular arrangement. 4048. Have you an arrangement to prevent smoke to the same extent?—Yes, to a very considerable extent. 4049. (Professor Way.) That is to say, the smoke from another kiln lighted goes into a kiln which is already red hot —No, it goes into the flue of the kiln in a state of great heat, and so is burnt. #950. (Chairman.) Smoke from a kiln newly lighted passes into a kiln at a very great heat 2 – Yes. 4051. Do you use salt in glazing 2–Yes. 4052. At what period of the burning do you throw in the salt –In the finishing process. 4053. Do you produce any injurious fumes 2–No. 4054. The glazing causes no nuisance 2–No. 4055. What do you do with your solid refuse?— Do you mean the ashes 2 4056. Yes, or any broken material?—We have just had a considerable windfall, we had about 20,000 tons of ashes in stock, and we have sold them to the railway company; they have just cleared us out, or else we had a large accumulation. 4057. Are you on the margin of the river or the canal?—On the canal. 4058. Did any of your ashes or refuse go into the canal?—No. 4059. In your case you had to make a cinder heap at great inconvenience to your business —Yes. 4060. You had to provide land for the purpose ?— Yes. 4061. Supposing the railway company had not agreed to take away the 20,000 tons, what must you have done —We must have ground the ashes up with clay and made bricks of them. 4062. You have been saved the cost 2–Yes. 4063. If you do not get such a windfall in future the accumulation will go on 3–Yes, unless another railway will take them up. 4064. Have the ashes been tried for brick-making in this district —No, I do not think they have been, but a very good brick might be made out of a con- R HUDIDERS- FIELD. Mr. E. Brooke, jun. 26 Oct. 1866. 130 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. E. Brooke, jun. 26 Oct. 1866. Capt. Graham. -- siderable proportion of ashes ground fine and mixed with clay. 4065. That would be like the London process 2– Yes, but a larger proportion of ashes might be used; they do not allow bricks to be used here, and a very inferior brick would do for inside work. 4066. If you could make good bricks with your ashes, I suppose other people might do the same 2—I do not know whether it would pay them to do so, but I think that it would do so more in the neighbourhood of Sheffield where I have had a demand for ashes for grinding with mortar. 4067. Have you had occasion to use ashes recently —Yes, we always use a considerable portion of ashes when we make mortar, as much as we can. 4068. You grind them up with your lime 2–Yes. 4069. Have you a larger demand for your pipes than you had formerly 2–Yes, a great deal. 4070. Did you send many into Lancashire during the cotton distress —Yes; our principal trade was with Lancashire during the cotton distress. 4071. To towns which were carrying out their sewerage works —Yes. The witness withdrew. Captain GRAHAM (Huddersfield) examined. 4072. (Chairman.) You hold some appointment under Sir John Ramsden —I am the land agent of Sir John Ramsden here. 4073. How long have you held that appointment —About two years. 4074. Was that your first acquaintance with this district 2–Yes, with this immediate neighbourhood. 4075. In what condition do you find the streams and rivers of this district as regards purity ?—They are all extremely polluted. 4076. Have you had to negotiate any sales of land recently for mill or building purposes?–Only leases of land. 4077. For mill purposes —Yes. 4078. In your opinion will the condition of the rivers have any influence upon the sale of that land —Yes, very great upon its value. 4079. Have you had any objections raised to the condition of the rivers by would-be purchasers?—I have not, but they simply avoid those portions of land which are near to the river as being useless to them for mill purposes, they all go away to the canal side in order to get clean water. 4080. They go where there is clean water –Yes. 4081. Then I suppose that you have come to the con- clusion that if the river were in a purer state the river sites would have more value than they have at present? —No doubt, very much so. 4082. Have you as land agent had occasion to com- plain of special pollutions at any particular points — I have. 4083. Have you had occasion to either threaten or take proceedings at law —No, I have not had occa- sion to do either the one or the other; but last year I found that about 40 persons were casting ashes into the river Holme within a distance of about two miles, and I wrote to each of those persons requiring them to discontinue the practice. 4084. Did they do so —I cannot say exactly whether all of them had done so, or whether any of them had neglected to do so. I expect that the greater part of them have discontinued the practice. 4085. Do you know the condition of the river Holme as it runs through Lockwood —Yes. At that time I found that there were three persons within a distance of about 200 yards, who had been casting ashes and soil excavations into the river so as to go over almost two-thirds of the channel just below Lockwood Bridge. 4086. Had you any authority over that part of the stream —Yes, and I wrote to those persons accord- ingly. --- 4087. Do you think that they discontinued that practice —Yes, I think that they have done so. 4088. Have you any hope of being able by the existing power to prevent that abuse 2–Not entirely. I have power as the agent of the landowner, but I should have to exercise constant vigilance and super- vision which would be almost too much for me. I should have to spend a good part of my time in doing it. 4089. Do you think that it would tend to your comfort or otherwise if you had to be prosecuting -- offenders in that way ?—I think that you need hardly ask that question. 4090. You would not like to be in so a position ?—Certainly not. 4091. And I assume that you think that it is a situation in which you ought not to be placed 2–I feel so very strongly. 4092. You think that the law ought to provide some means of preventing the nuisance?—Certainly. 4093. I suppose that you would not like to be made informer general for the river any more than you would like to be made an informer of the police force 2 —Naturally not. 4094. In your communications with mill owners have they ever complained to you of the foul state of the water 2–I do not think that the mill owners themselves have. 4095. They would perhaps consider that you had no power to remedy it, and they take the river as they find it 2–They take it as they find it. 4096. But in your belief, the foul state of the river injuriously affects the value of the land 7–There is no question of that. 4097. Have you had any complaints of the river being noxious or giving off unwholesome exhalations? —No complaint of that has been made to me, but I am satisfied that it is so. 4098. Has Sir John Ramsden much agricultural land outside the town over which the rivers and streams flow 2–Yes, I should say between 3,000 and 4,000 acres. 4099. If any person wished to purchase that land as residential property, to lay it out in an ornamental manner, I suppose that the state of the water would be an objection ?—I should say that it would alto- gether prevent the sale for that purpose. invidious 4100. Have any of your farmers complained to you that the cattle could not use the water –No, they have not. 4101. I suppose that that is a matter which has grown up and that they have been obliged to provide some other means for watering their cattle —I think that they actually water them now from the river. 4102. In some instances?—Yes, in a great number of instances. 4103. Have you had any cattle plague in this district —Yes; but only slight. 4104. You could not say that the foul state of the water had caused the cattle plague?—No; I should say that it had not. 4105. Do you think that Sir John would object to a properly constituted authority being established to prevent river pollution?—No; I am satisfied that he would be very glad to see such an authority constituted. 4106. He would be very glad to second it 2–Yes, I am sure that he would. - 4107. (Mr. Harrison.) There are two mills near the junction of the narrow canal with the broad one, which belong to Sir John Ramsden –Yes. 4108. The first length of the canal is used as a kind of pound for the supply of the power to those two mills —Yes. -- RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 131 - 4109. And water from the river is turned into the canal for that purpose?–It is so. 4110. And in consequence the broad canalis polluted throughout its whole length -Yes. 4111. Has Sir John Ramsden property upon the banks of that broad canal?–Yes. 4112. You have stated that the value of the property would be very much increased if the river were free from pollution ?–Yes. 4113. Is the value of the water power of those two mills so great that it is worth while to pollute the whole four miles of canal for the purpose of maintaining that power?—No, I should say that it was not. - 4114. Do you know that the wide canal might be supplied with perfectly pure water from the narrow canal?—Yes, I know that. - 4115. Does not it seem a very desirable thing that the pollution of those four miles of canal should be prevented if it can be done so easily –If we cannot get the river cleaned, so as to have clean water turned from it into the canal, it may be wisdom to keep the river water out of the canal altogether. 4116. We have had it in evidence that the canal is a greater nuisance through a part of the town than the river itself?—No doubt, because it is comparatively stagnant. 4117. Under all those circumstances do you not think it very desirable that Sir John Ramsden should take some steps to alter that condition of things?—I have not considered that question and therefore do not like to return an off-hand answer to it. 4118. Does a great part of the town of Huddersfield belong to Sir John Ramsden –Yes. 4119. We have from the registrar a return of the death rate, for sometime past in the township of Huddersfield ; the township is divided into five divisions —Huddersfield, Marsh, Fartown, Deighton, and Brad- ley?—Yes. 4120. Do those divisions belong to Sir John Rams- den –All except Bradley. 4121. The death rate in the division of Bradley appears to be about 12 in the 1,000?–Yes. 4122. That is a very low death rate —Yes. 4123. But the death rate of the adjoining division, namely, Deighton, is 56 in the 1,000 –Yes, it is very bad indeed; I am quite aware of that. 4124. Can you give any reason for that immense death rate in the division of Deighton –Yes; in the first place, they have very insufficient arrangements for sewerage, then they have unwholesome dwellings, and thirdly, they have very bad accommodation in the way of privies and ashpits. I believe the high death rate is entirely owing to those three causes. 4125. Is the property Sir John Ramsden's 2–A portion of it; there is a local board government now, and half the houses are the property of the lessees ; the whole of them are not Sir John Ramsden's. 4126. As agent for Sir John Ramsden do you think that it is your duty to look to the condition of those cottages?–Clearly, and I have been doing so. 4127. A death rate of 56 in the 1,000 is a fearful death rate –It is enormous. 4128. And any steps which could be taken ought to be taken, and that immediately, to improve that condition of things?—No doubt. 4129. There is another division, viz. Marsh, which also appears to have a very high death rate?—Yes. 4130. Does the property there belong to Sir John Ramsden –Some part of it, but not the whole. 4131. Is it also capable of improvement?—Yes, 1. should say so decidedly. 4132. Are you taking steps to improve it?—I cannot say that I am, they have a local government there. 4133. Are Deighton and Marsh near the river ?— Marsh is not, Deighton is. - 4134. Do you think that the health of the inhabitants is at all affected by the condition of the river ?–Not in the least. - Y 4135. But merely by the condition of the houses?— CS. - 4136. Sir John Ramsden, you say, has a considerable extent of land beyond the boundaries of the borough 2 —Yes. 4137. Is there any land suitable for sewage irriga- tion ?–No, I should say none. 4138. Not even if the sewage was pumped to a height –It might be done physically, but you would have to do it over land which is prospective building land. 4139. (Professor Way.) The land would be too valuable for that purpose?—Far too valuable. 4140. And it would become more so if the river were purified in the next few years?—Yes, very much more valuable. 4.141. (Chairman.) In the instances where that high death rate is, do the cottages belong to Sir John Ramsden as well as the land 2–Yes, now they do ; he purchased the property a few years ago, I may say 10 years ago ; some settlement was made at that time by which he purchased the whole, but, before he purchased, all who desired to have leases had them granted to them. 4142. (Professor JWay.) You spoke of cattle drink- ing the water of the river up to the present time, were you then speaking of the Calder 2–No. 4143. Of what river were you speaking —Of the Colne. 4.144. Is the Colne as full of foul matter as some other of the streams ?—I do not know whether it is so bad as the Calder. 4145. We have been told that in some cases cattle will not drink the water –I should not think that it is quite so bad as the Calder, but I do not know. 4146. Of course it is a serious inconvenience to the farmer if his natural water supply is such that he cannot avail himself of it?—It is so, no doubt. The witness withdrew. Mr. WRIGHT MELLoR, President of the Chamber of Commerce, Huddersfield, examined. 41.47. (Chairman.) Are you engaged in manufacture? —I am. 4148. Are you a cloth manufacturer —-Yes. 4149. Where are your works situated?—At Milnes Bridge. 4150. How far is that from Huddersfield 2–About 2% miles. 4151. Are they situated upon the river ?—Upon the river Colne. 4152. Above or below the town 3–Above the town. 4153. About what number of hands do you employ —At the works about 170 or 180. 4154. Do you carry on dyeing 2–Yes. 4155. And washing 2–Yes. 4156. Cloths 2–Both cloths and wool. 4157. Where do you obtain your water for washing and dyeing purposes?–From the river. 4158. Have you any other supply than the river? —None. - 4159. How long have the works been established there —From three to four years. 4160. Then I assume that you found the river polluted when you went there —We did, but not so much as it is down here. 4161. Has it become more polluted since your works have been established there 2–I do not think that it has, I think that it is about the same. 4162. What power do you use 2–35-horse steam power. 4163. You use no water power P-No water power. 4164. What do you do with your ashes?—Hitherto we have had to fill up a good deal of the uneven ground about the factory, and likewise to make a road, and we have appropriated most of the ashes for that purpose. 4.165. Have any of them gone into the stream — We have not sent in 100 cartloads since we com- menced the works. - ---. HUDDERS- FIELD. Capt. Graham. 26 Oct. 1866. - Mr. W. Mellor. R 2 132 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. W. Mellor. 26 Oct. 1866. 4166. But there has been no restriction upon your doing so, and if you had thought proper you might have sent them in 2–We suppose so. 4167. Do any persons above you send in ashes ?—I believe that they do, I cannot speak to that with certainty. 4.168. And below you as well I suppose?–Yes. 4169. Where does the night-soil from your mill hands go 2–Into the river. 4170. From the privies —Yes. 4171. Are they built so as to project over the river? —No, they are built as waterclosets, and the refuse is conveyed into the dye water. 4172. And it becomes mixed with the dye water before it reaches the river ?–Yes. 4173. Have you had any complaints made against that mode of passing refuse into the river ?-None. 4174. You, I suppose, are only doing what is common above and below you ?–That is all. 4175. How long have you had a chamber of com- merce in Huddersfield –About 15 years I think, from 15 to 20 years. - 4176. I assume that you are in communication with other chambers of commerce throughout the Kingdom? —We are. 4177. Have you the means of stating in weight the amount of wool which comes into Yorkshire and the amount of cloth which is sent out 3–That I could not say; I saw the evidence which Mr. Eastwood gave yesterday on that subject, and on thinking it oyer this morning I thought that it was a pretty fair estimate, 4178. If we wanted that information where would be the best place to apply for it?—You might get the quantity of wool I apprehend from the carriers in the district. That would be one source to apply to. 4179. Do the board of trade take any cognizance of it for Government purposes —I am not aware that they do. 4.180. Does wool pay a duty —No, it did formerly but it does not now. 4181. And there is no Government authority whose duty it is to ascertain the gross imports and exports? —You could get the gross imports of wools into the whole of the kingdom, but I do not know that there is any special means by which you can find out the proportion coming into Yorkshire. 4.182. What weight of wool do you deal with in your manufactory —From 250,000 lbs. to 350,000 lbs. weight per annum. 4183. Pure wool —Yes. 4.184. From what part is it usually brought –-It is Australian wool. 4.185. Is it always washed —No, some of it is not washed at all, there is a great variety in that respect; there is wool in the grease unwashed, then there is wool partially washed, and there is what is termed scoured wool. 4186. You mean wool which comes to you scoured? —Yes. 4187. Do you treat any of your wools by steeping them before they go into the manufacturing processes —Yes, we scour the unscoured wool. 4.188. Have you heard of the method of getting carbonate of potash from raw wools by steeping them in water 2—No. - 4189. You have not heard that it is being carried out in France?—We have not heard of it, and consequently we have not endeavoured to apply it at all. 4190. As to the refuse water from the wool wash- ing, and from the dyeworks are these (pointing to the bottles) fair samples —The one representing the black liquid from the dye, and the one representing the material from scoured wool are fair samples. 4191. Do you utilize any refuse matter from your operations?–Yes, we have for two years past utilized the soap and oil in the washings from the pieces. 4192. That has been done by yourself or by some person who farms it?—We went to the expense our- selves of putting down the works at the commence- ment, - 4.193. But it has been carried on for two years 2– It has. - 4194. And with a certain amount of profit to your- selves –Certainly, or else we should not do it. 4.195. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. Brooke this morning —I did. 4196. Do you agree generally in that evidence 2– In a great portion of it. - 4197. Have you any spare land near to your premises?—No, we have none excepting a very small quantity of building land ; we have no opportunity at all to purify the water by irrigation. 4.198. So that if a filtration process is to be carried out it must be something very compact to do you any good —It must. 4199. Do you think that you have not space for ordinary filtration ?—Yes, we have space for it at present, provided that there was a process known and one which we could apply. 4200. That is to say, provided that there was some economical and efficient process known 2–Ouite so. 420.1. I suppose that you are in communication with a large circle of Yorkshire gentlemen connected with the woollen trade –Yes, I know a great many of them. 4202. What is the general feeling, so far as you have gathered it, with regard to the present condition of the rivers and streams of Yorkshire –It is by no means satisfactory, but I fancy that we have all been alarmed by the difficulty of purifying the stream and remedying the evil. 4203. I suppose that the trade of the district has increased very greatly —Very considerably indeed. 4204. Do you think that it has increased in a larger ratio in the last 10 years than formerly 2–I should say so ; in the last 10 or 15 years decidedly. 4205. Is it increasing now 2–Yes. 4206. Did the coiton famine give an impetus to the woollen trade –That is generally supposed to have been the case, and I should say that to some extent it was. - - 4207. Has the woollen trade at all gone back since the resumption of the cotton trade —Ishould not say that it has ; there has been no change beyond the ordinary and periodical fluctuations which are found in all species of trade. 4208. Do you think that you have reached the ultimatum of the woollen trade?—That is a very difficult question to answer. I should not at all say that we have got to the full extent of our progress. I should be very sorry to say that, and I do not know that there are any facts to warrant such an inference provided that the relations existing between masters and workpeople are of such a satisfactory nature as will enable us to still go on as we have done. 4209. Have there been more difficulties recently with the workmen than formerly —Not specially in this district; I am not aware of any difficulty. 4210. I suppose that we may assume that if the trade of the district increases, without some remedy being provided, the pollution of the streams will increase also?—Judging from appearances it is likely to do so. 4211. Do you know any of the streams to be so foul that the water is almost entirely unfitted for manufac- turing purposes?—Speaking for our own establish- ment, we use the river water for the whole of the purposes to which we require to apply it, both dyeing and washing, and therefore, so far as we are concerned, we have not yet suffered any inconvenience. 4212. Having started four years ago I suppose you chose a kind of manufacture which you knew that you could carry on with that water —We are in this condition, we have the canal on one side and the river on the other, so that if the river water did not suit we could have recourse to the canal. We applied to the canal company and we got a pipe put into the canal so that we might avail ourselves of it in case of need, hitherto we have not required to do so. 4213. What class of goods form the staple of the RIVERS COMMISSION :–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 133 manufacture of this district 2–There is a great variety. - 4214, Are they heavy goods or light goods?—They are heavy trowserings principally, and likewise broad cloths, we have two or three very large establishments for the manufacture of broad cloths, the same as the Leeds manufacture, and we have an immense number of manufactories established for the manufacture of fancy trowserings, that is an increasing trade now. 4215. Do you know whether any of the fancy trade has deserted Yorkshire for Scotland in consequence of purer water existing there —I cannot say that it has for that reason ; there is no doubt that the Scotch tweed trade has progressed very rapidly indeed during the last few years, and for the manufacture of that class of goods pure water is almost indispensable; you cannot get out the colour and the general appearance of the cloth unless you have pure water to wash in. 4216. Could you manufacture such goods at your works with your present water?—I would not say that we could, I think it is probable that we could not. 4217. Then if the Scotch from their mountain streams have a larger volume of pure water they are enabled to take that business from Yorkshire 2–In so far as the water has to do with the manufacture they must necessarily do so. 4218. Do you think that they have other advan- tages?—I do not know that they have ; we go to the same markets for our wools, and we think that our workpeople are as skilful and industrious as theirs, and we have sufficient capital in the district to enable us to do our work, so that I cannot think that they have much advantage over us; there may be something in the public taste, the public taste perhaps may run upon their class of goods. 4219. If the Scotch people extend their manufac- tures and neglect their rivers they may run a neck and neck race with you ?—They cannot neglect their rivers and preserve their position. 4220. If they wish to preserve the advantages which they already possess they must do something to keep their rivers pure ?—I should say so, unless they have independent sources of supply. 4221. Have you at all thought what kind of juris- diction would be appropriate for preventing this pollution. What kind of board should be established 2 —I should say that any jurisdiction which you might have ought to be in the main originated in the district itself. 4222. That there should be representatives of the different trades concerned —Most assuredly. 4223. Would you have any superintending power or any power of appeal, or any power which should be capable of making the local body act –Personally, I am very jealous of a superintending power of that kind. At the same time there is this difficulty, that unless there is a vigilant superintending power, the duty may sometimes be neglected A superintending power may be beneficial, but I should be very sorry to have a superintending power which could exercise any coercive authority. 4224. Do you know what is the duty of an inspec- tor of mines —To some extent I do. 4225. Do you know an Act known as Lord Derby's Alkali Act 2—I know that there is such an Act, but I do not know its provisions. 4226. Do you know that Parliament, with the assent of the manufacturers, has prescribed that the vapours shall not be sent away with more than five per cent. of impurity in them, and that a Government officer is appointed to see that those stipulations are complied with. The manufacturers were consulted upon the Act before it was passed, and I believe that they all assented –Personally, I should not object to any Act of Parliament being passed for the purification of the river which was passed with the assent of the manufacturers, because I am quite sure that the bill would receive very great consideration before it was passed into an Act; and I think that it would be likely to be an Act operative for good in that event. 4227. Lancashire and Yorkshire through their county and borough members, and the West of Eng- land, and in fact the manufacturing districts, are tolerably well represented in our present Parliament, are they not ?–Yes, but not too well represented. 4228. But they are represented * – They are to Some extent. - 4229. Do you not think that if those represen- tatives do their duty to the gentlemen who send them there, namely, the manufacturers, if any bill is laid before Parliament, they will exercise a very powerful influence in modifying that bill ? — No doubt the opinion of the district would have very great weight ; perhaps more than in former times, inasmuch as the government of the day are much more anxious to ascertain the opinions of Chambers of Commerce in our different towns. They are very solicitous indeed to obtain their opinions on many questions. Gentlemen here, I am sure, can corroborate that statement, and in framing any bill for the prevention of river pollution it very likely that they would consult the wishes of the district. 4230, You are aware that the ordinary course is, that notices are given of a bill, and that clauses may be modified or changed, and you as president of the Chamber of Commerce of Huddersfield would think it your duty to obtain copies of such a bill, and seriously to consider the clauses as they were going through Parliament 2–Certainly. 4231. And through your members to make your influence felt in Parliament 2–Certainly. Anything which was likely to be disadvantageous to the district we should most strenuously oppose. 4232. But you think that if a common sense bill was drawn, and if the clauses were such as to confer a general benefit upon the whole district, it would receive a fair trial 2–I have sufficient confidence in the good sense and judgment of the manufacturers of this district to believe that they would not object to a Bill if fairly drawn, provided the provisions were made co-extensive with the kingdom. Of course I should object to anything like experimental legislation for this district alone. 4233. You are aware, I suppose, that the common law of the land is now powerful enough to reach separate nuisances when put in operation by some resident complainant 2–Certainly. 4234. Do you think that it is advisable to trust to that mode of getting rid of a nuisance 2—It is a very unpleasant thing for a neighbour to be unneighbourly and ill-natured, and to commence an action against his neighbour. It is done I know, but I do not think that it is always safe to trust to it, in these cases especially. 4235. If new legislation were suggested, and if the answer were made, there is the common law of the land for you; you would not consider that a sufficient answer 2–It does not seem so in this case of our rivers. 4236. You think that the legislation should not be such as to set neighbour against neighbour – Certainly. 4237. But that action should be independent of in- dividual interference, and that the whole locality from the sources of the stream down to the estuary should be under the same form of legislation ?—Certainly- It would never do to make fish of one and flesh of another. 4238. With regard to the necessary expenses, which need not be very burdensome, the locality, I suppose, should find by rate or otherwise the means of carrying out the operations of that local body?—Personally, I should not have the slightest objection, but should rather hail it as a desirable thing. 4239. In all municipal bodies the state does not aid yº but gives you powers for local self-government : — Y eS. 4240. And I am not aware that it interferes with the mode in which you exercise those powers ?–It is very indulgent. I may just say that I should have a very strong objection to the system of diverting the course of the river by any exceptional system of HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. W. Mellor. 26 Oct. 1866, R. 3 134 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. W. Mellor. 26 Oct. 1866. the centre 2–Yes. - drainage by which the volume of the river should be diminished. - ºi º 4241. You would object to a system of intercepting sewers or conduits which would take water from one portion of the stream past mills below –Yes. Per- sonally I should object to it, because sometimes in a dry time we have very great difficulty in getting a sufficient quantity of water, and in the next, place because, there would be such an accumulation of objectionable matter in the river that it would become unendurable. Even as it is, when there has been a dry season, and there comes a flood, the water is some- times almost intolerable, bringing down all the refuse which has, I may say, been festering on the surface of the bed of the river, and I think that that evil would be increased if the water were diverted from the stream. 4242. I suppose that from your knowledge of the district you think that no cut-and-dried plan from any man, however eminent his abilities might be in other respects, would suit all your wants —Whatever plan any eminent man were to devise would have to under- go a very sharp Yorkshire criticism before passing into a law. - 4243. With regard to a conduit for the combined refuse of several mills, we have found that at Dews- bury the owners of seven or eight mills, with the con- sent of all parties, have one conduit into which they discharge all their waste waters, and that conduit empties itself into the river below the lowest of the mills, and this they do to protect each other?—But I presume that they do not deprive anybody else of the water in the meantime. That is what I should object to. - - 4244. They do not do that ; they turn it into the stream at a mill-head where a gentleman said that he would not be deprived of that water as it would be worth from 500l. to 1,000l. a year to his works – There would be no objection to that, provided that between the two points there was no accumulation of filth on the bank of the river ; but if there was any- thing of that kind I should very strongly object to a diversion of the stream. 4245. (Professsor Way.) Provided that five or six mills could more easily deal with the purification of the water than one, and that the arrangement did not interfere with water power, there would be no objection to it?—I should think not. 4246. (Chairman.) That would be a matter to be carried out by the local authorities —Yes. 4247. (Professor Way.) Every case must be met upon its own merits?—It must. 4248. There would be no real injury to any person if it were found more practicable to deal with the refuse of several mills united than with the refuse of each mill separately, provided the water power was not interfered with ?–Just so, if you did not interfere with the water power, and did not allow any other nuisance. 4249. The object being to purify the water – Yes. 4250. (Chairman.) You know the Aire and Calder district 2–Yes. 4251. The whole basin of the Aire and Calder is very much larger than is depicted upon that map. This is a small portion of it 2–It is. 4252. Do you think that it would be more advisable to break the basin up into a number of areas like that, and to put each under separate jurisdiction, or to treat the whole Aire and Calder district as one district for purification purposes —That is rather a difficult question. Of course a board of that kind would require to take into account the special cir- cumstances of each district, and it appears to me that it would be a better course to allow the Govern- ment to be confined to the local district, 4252a. If you look at that map you will see that there is a compact district of which Huddersfield is 4253. If the manufacturers in that district had the power of voting for representatives, the local board for that district could sit in Huddersfield, or wherever tº ºl it chose to sit, and could legislate or direct for that district, and one surveyor could act for it ?—Certainly. 5254. And that board would levy rates for the improvements within that district 2–Yes. 4255. And then the local board might be subject to the supervision of a Conservancy board, having power over the whole of the sub-districts?—Exactly ; that is my idea. 4256. Supposing that there were 50 local districts similar to this one within the Aire and Calder basin, do you think that those 50 districts should have their representatives at a board which should embrace the main streams and the main area —That is a matter of opinion, and it is a question upon which I have not quite made up my mind, but as a rule I am in favour of each locality managing its own affairs; one such for instance would be the locality indicated on this map. 4257. That is what I am suggesting, so that you would not have only one locality in the Aire and Calder basin, but as many as the formation of the country would allow to be mapped out 2–Yes. 4258. (Professor Way.) When the Calder reaches the outline of that map your jurisdiction would cease ? —Yes. - 4259. Supposing that the lower district had a cause of complaint against you for not carrying into effect fully the provisions of the Act, in what way would they obtain a remedy if there was not a general board?—I think that there must be some court of appeal to decide causes of difference between local districts, but it would merely operate as a court of appeal. 4260. (Chairman.) In France there is a board of roads and bridges, and the whole of the rivers and roads in France are under Government surveillance 2 —Yes. -" 4261. The municipal authorities have no power to appoint an engineer or to discharge him. Whatever is done to the rivers is done by some government officer. I suppose that you would not like to have that kind of authority set up over you ?—I should not like it in Yorkshire; it is not in accordance with our English habits and customs. 4262. You would like to see your way to keeping representative institutions?—We should. 4263. (Mr. Harrison.) I presume that in any Act of Parliament which was passed there would be two distinct parts; the first would be to determine what the nuisances were which should be abated, about that there would be considerable discussion ?—There would, no doubt. 4264. But if Parliament decided that such and such materials should not be thrown into the river, for instance, if they determined that sewage and ashes and soap-water refuse should not be turned into the river, it would then remain that there should be some supervision of the river so as to carry out the intention of Parliament. Might not an inspector or inspectors be appointed by the county magistracy to have for their duty to summon people offending 2–Yes, that is really in effect leaving the matter in our own hands in our own district. 4265. Have you not in the county magistracy a body able to carry out the whole system —Do you mean to constitute a board P 4266. No ; just in the same way as the magistrates appoint the county surveyor of roads. They might appoint a surveyor or surveyors of rivers who would have the power of summoning persons whom they found infringing the Act of Parliament —There could not be the slightest objection to that. 4267. Otherwise, if you left it to local parties to take action the people inhabiting the area of the Colne might not fully carry out the Act, and their proceed- ings might operate to the great disadvantage of Dews- bury and Wakefield without a remedy very easy to be applied ?—When you refer to the magistracy am I to understand you to mean the whole body in Quarter Sessions? - 4268. The county magistrates with an appeal to Quarter Sessions?—With regard to Huddersfield we RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 135 have only county magistrates here, and therefore you would appeal to them? 4269. Of course. —I should have no objection to that at all. 4270. (Chairman.) Do you think that it would be advisable to let country gentlemen, country magistrates, legislate for manufacturers ?—I do not understand that it would be legislating at all, it would be merely appointing an inspector of the rivers. " . 4271. (Professor Way.) You know the form in which the Thames Act has lately been carried out 2– I do. 4272. There were two bodies on the Thames, the Commissioners on the Upper Thames, and the Conser- vancy of the lower Thames?—Yes. 4273. By the Act which passed through both Houses in the last session these two bodies are merged into one, the present Conservancy with the addition of five members to its number, and this board is now the ruling body of the whole Thames —Yes. 4274. Would some arrangement of that kind be necessary for the rivers Calder and Aire?—I should prefer subdivisions of the districts under the local authorities. 4275. But you must have some controlling power over those local authorities?—I would have some court of appeal to which to resort in the event of an in- fraction of the Act of Parliament, that court of course should be able to decide the whole question. 4276. (Chairman.) You might appeal to the Home Office or to the Board of Trade –Yes, you would appeal to that court, whatever it might be. 4277. (Professor Way.) But there might be degrees. One district, like your own, might be more anxious to do their duty than another, and it would be difficult to decide upon what was the general ad- vantage of all unless there was some body whose duty it was to look over the whole district 2–We say that “The law is for the lawless and the disobedient.” If people were anxious to do their duty there would be no need to appeal to any court. If any district did not do its duty I would have it compelled to do its duty by reference to a court of law. 4278. I think that you have stated that any volun- tary action is out of the question ?—You cannot depend upon it at all, at the present time it is out of the question. 4279. If it be so, and if you had legislative inter- ference with your full sanction in the first instance, unless there was some means of carrying out that legislation, you would be under the voluntary system still ?—I will suppose that you get an Act of Parlia- ment to regulate the whole district or to regulate a portion of the district, and that that Act of Parliament empowers the county magistrates or any other body to appoint an inspector of rivers, the inspector finds that certain parties are not doing their duty, and are not obeying the law; he at once cites these parties before the proper tribunal, as in any other case, to compel them to do their duty; the thing seems to me to be very simple. 4280. Probably the difficulty in the case of the county magistrates would be this, that the dissension would be between district and district and not between party and party in one and the same district. For instance, you might have sufficient power in Hudders- field in that watershed to keep your own concerns in order, and you might have an officer who would take measures in case of any infraction of the law as laid down for the regulation of that district. But how would the general officer deal with the several districts —It appears to me that any difficulty of that kind would be got over by appointing a river inspec- tor for the whole district. 4281. Do you mean an inspector appointed by the Government —I do not care whether he is appointed by the Government or in any other way. ' 4282. (Mr. Harrison.) He might be appointed as inspector of prisons?—I should personally prefer that he should be appointed by the magistrates. 4283. (Chairman.) Asbridge masters are appointed 2 —Yes. - 4284. (Professor Way.) Your object is to take indi- vidual action out of the question ?—The case is a very clear one; voluntary action has done nothing; we have a polluted river, and therefore to leave it as it has been in past times would be to leave it to get worse, and to aggravate the evil. 4285. And legislation would equally be a dead letter unless you provided means to carry it out 2—You must have an inspector. The witness withdrew. Mr. GEORGE WILLIAM FARRAR (Honley) examined 4286. (Chairman.) You are a dyer —Yes. 4287. Where are your works situated 2–At Honley. 4288. Are they upon the edge of any river or stream 2–It is the river which leads to Meltham, com- monly termed Magdale or Mag river. 4289. What number of hands do you employ — 26. 4290. Have you any idea as to what volume of Water you use in a day ?—About 126,000 gallons in 12 hours, we only work 12 hours, from 6 to 6. 4291. Where do you obtain that water 2—From springs. - 4292. From springs on your own premises?—No. Y 4293. From springs on some adjoining premises?— eS. - 4294. Not from the river?—Not from the river. 4295. Is it good soft water?—Yes. 4296. What material and what colours do you generally dye P-We dye cloth and wool; the colours are principally blue and black. 4297. What material do you use to produce those colours ?–Indigo and logwood, with certain other things. - 4298. Chemicals of gome kind 2–Chemicals to produce the black. £299. Do you use much soap in washing the goods? —No, very little. * +800. Is the whole of the water which is used more or less Pºlluted before leaving your premises?–Yes, more or less, - 4301. What do you do with it after you have used it 2–We turn it into the river. 4302. Do you use steam power?—Yes, but we do not require much power of any kind. 4303. What do you do with the ashes from your steam-engine –They are partly used upon the road repaired by the township where we live; we have about 200 or 300 yards of road which we repair with those ashes, and we turn the remainder into the stream pass- ing by, just as other people do. - 4304. Where does the night-soil from your work- people go?–On to the land adjoining. 4305. Have any complaints been made by persons below you of your polluting the stream —No. 4306. Are there any mills situated above you ?– Yes. - 4307. You are not at the top of the stream —No; there are parties above, but they do not spoil the Water. 4308. And you do not injure it for any persons below?—The beck goes immediately into a broad stream ; the river runs on three sides of the premises of those below us. 4309. What stream is that ?–We call it the Mag River, the Meltham Dyke, it is often known by the name of the Meltham River. 4310. Have you ever thought of trying whether you could diminish the volume of impure water before passing it away?—No. - 4311. Or whether you could diminish the impurity of the water before passing it away ?–No. HUDDERS- FIELD Mr. W. Mellor. 26 Oct. 1866. ------ Mr. G. W. Farrar, R 4 136 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. —- Mr. G. W. Farrar. 26 Oct. 1866. 4312. You have had no complaints made against you ?—None. 4313. Have you ever put the waste water upon land for irrigation ?—We do take the refuse after the process of dyeing blue, we apply all the sedi- ment, that is to say, the woad and the bran and the lime which are used in the production of the colour, we preserve all that and put it upon the land; we have tanks about four yards square in which we put the liquid and allow it to settle, the sediment goes to the bottom, and the top passes off and goes into the river; we take out the sediment and put it upon the land. 4314. Is the water which flows into the river of the colour of any of these samples –Yes; it will depend a good deal upon the tank, whether it is full or pretty nearly full, or whether it is used just after having been emptied. 4315. Do you turn out refuse something like this (pointing to one of the bottles)?–Yes; of course the liquid stays in the tank and gets the eaves droppings of the premises into it, and it stays sometimes till the tank gets nearly full, and runs off moderately pure for a very considerable time. If any particular quantity of sediment goes through, of course we lose that quantity of manure, and therefore we stop the flow through that tank and turn the liquid into another tank till the first is emptied. 4316. What weight of indigo do you use in a year 2 —That partly depends upon the state of trade and the colours prevailing at the time; we use about a chest and a half a week, the average weight of one chest would be 2 cwt. - 4317. (Professor Way.) Is that at about 6s. a pound —It is 7s. now. A chest averages from 250 to 280 lbs., some chests are very large and weigh 3} cwt., but upon the average I should say that we use near upon 400 lbs. in a week. 4318. (Chairman.) What weight of woollen goods do you dye with that quantity of indigo —They vary in weight very considerably, there are some pieces, what we call ends of cloth, which weigh only a small weight; there are some classes of goods which weigh 30 lbs., that applies to broad cloth, perhaps 50 yards only weigh 30 lbs.; some pieces which are 40 yards weigh 80 lbs., therefore I am not prepared to give the weight of the cloth. 4319. (Mr. Harrison.) You are not prepared to say what weight of wool and cloth you dye in a week with the 126,000 gallons of water daily —Our average dye of what we call common colours would be about 1,500 to 1,800 lbs. a day, of wool of that sort, and of the other would be about 1,000 lbs. 4320. Does that include the pieces —That would include the pieces, I believe, so far as my recollection serves me now as to the weight. 4321. In your opinion, would that be about a fair average of water used for that weight of wool?—Yes. We do not wash the wool previously to sending it away from our dye-house, but we have to wash the cloth, and consequently a greater amount of water is required to cleanse that cloth. 4322. (Professor Way.) Is all this wool indigo dyed 2–No. 4323. That is not the quantity of wool which this quantity of indigo refers to 2–No. 1,500 lbs. of cloth and wool we should dye every day blue in various shades. 4324. With indigo 2–Yes. 4.325. Therefore this 400 lbs. of indigo a week refers to 1,500 lbs. of wool and cloth a day ?—Yes. 4326. Can you tell what quantity of water is used specially for that purpose 2–No, because we use the liquid over again repeatedly for a couple of months. 4327. (Chairman.) I suppose you are aware that you lose a good portion of your indigo; that it goes away from you ?—Yes, a considerable portion does. 4328. Have you ever tried any process of getting it back again?—I have often heard it spoken of, and I should like to see it, because after taking all the im- purities away it would be a valuable article if we could get it back again, 4329. (Professor Way.) You calculate that not above 50 or 60 per cent. of the indigo of commerce is really indigo —Just so. 4330. Do you believe that there is as much as that? —I have heard it so stated, but I have never tried it myself. 4331. (Chairman.) I suppose that there is a large quantity of dirt in it —A great quantity. 4332. And if you could get back the indigo extracted by chemical means from the refuse water you would get purer indigo 2–Certainly. 4333. They are getting it back by a process at Wakefield to a very considerable extent?—By what means ? 4334. (Mr. Harrison.) They get the soapsuds and they extract the soap and the oily matter, and from the cake which is left, which in ordinary cases is sent out for manure, the indigo is extracted –Is the process remunerative P 4335. (Chairman.) The indigo recovered is worth more per pound than the indigo which they buy in the market?—It may be worth more, but will the quantity which they obtain make it pay ? (Chairman.) Yes, it pays. 4336. (Professor Way.) I suppose, if you saved the indigo which is now wasted, it would not be so valuable, because indigo would go down in price — Supply regulates all matters. 4337. You use 400 lbs. of indigo per week to 1,500 lbs. per day of wool and stuff, that is 5 per cent. Do you think that there is 5 per cent. of indigo in the cloth or anything near it —I am sure I do not know. I never tried the experiment. 4338. (Chairman.) Do you think that 100 lbs. of cloth when it is dyed indigo colour would weigh 105 lbs. ?—Certainly, indigo does produce the greatest weight. Manufacturers all know that blue will make the greatest weight ; it always increases the weight. 4339. (Professor Way.) Then you do not believe that a great quantity of indigo is lost 2–No. 4340. (Chairman.) As you have not been interfered with, I suppose that you do not feel this nuisance of the rivers which the other manufacturers do?— Certainly not. 4341. Then you are not in a position to give any opinion whether the pollution of the streams should or should not be prevented 2–It does not affect me in the slightest degree. 4342. You complain of no one and no one complains of you ?–No. 4343. But if there were general regulations for the purification of dye water, do you think that you would be left alone —I should certainly come within the Act in that respect, but I think that it would be almost impracticable for myself. For instance, the river runs round my premises, and I have not an inch of land on either side, and on the other side there is a hill and the land belongs to somebody else, and I want to know by what means I must purify this water if I am compelled to do it. 43.44. If you are asked to do a thing it must be something which can be done?—If they were to show me how I could do it, and if I could get the land to do it, it would be a different thing. 4345. (Professor Way.) Would it be possible in any place where you are circumscribed for space to use the basement of the mill for subsiding tanks 2 No part of your mill is underground, is it?—The greatest part of our vats and pans are below the level of the ground. - 4346. Do you mean under the level of the ground 2 —The vats in which we dye blue are below the level of the river. - 4347. Then you have no space to spare there – No. 4348. (Chairman.) Does the river ever flood you? —Yes, and it dams up the drains. 4349. Has it ever blown your vat out 2—It has raised one, but only one. We have had one raised six inches. 4350. Have you heard of vats being raised in other RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. - 137 places by floods —Yes, I have seen them completely turned out. In consequence of the bursting of the Bilberry reservoir at the Holmfirth flood there were several turned out, but that was an unusual occurrence. In our locality we have had one place full half a yard deep all over the floor in consequence of a simple storm and excessive rains from the Meltham district. 4351. That was not from the filling up of the river bed 2–No; but the river is too narrow, and everybody encroaches upon it, and when there is an excessive flood it overflows the banks. 4352. Do you think that it is necessary that there should be some jurisdiction to prevent the encroach- ments which you speak of 2–I think that that is desirable. The local authorities ought to prevent them. 4353. Have you a Local Board in Honley –Yes, but it has only recently been established. 4354. Are you a member of it –Yes. 4355. Have you carried out any sewers ?–No, we have done nothing in sewerage since the formation of the Local Board. 4356. If you sewered, would it be into the stream above you ?–No ; the drainage runs on the other side of the town. The town or village in which we live stands upon a hill, and slopes down to the river Holme. 4357. What is your population ?–Nearly 5,000. 4358. Is it a growing population ?–It is not. 4359. Have you anything further to add –All that I have to say with respect to this inquiry is that my opinion is that a great portion of the complaints The witness which I hear with regard to the bed of the river being raised is in consequence of the quantity of ashes and excavations from new buildings which are poured into the river, and I think that if that were stopped the G. river would not be obstructed, and that consequently HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. W. Farrar. the amount of water which comes down, although it 26 Oct. 1866. might be polluted in our district, would not be pre- vented from carrying away with it many of the impurities which now accumulate. For instance, ashes, which are very porous, and which in a dry season soon begin to smell. 4360. You think that the solids ought to be kept out of the river ?–Yes. 4361. But you think that the coloured refuse and the dye water will not do any harm —I do not say so. The dye water, of course, is an objection, and I want somebody to devise a means to regulate that, but I am speaking of the evil of raising the bed of the I'l Ver. 4362. If you were shown means, within your power to adopt, for doing away with the nuisance of discolouration, would you object to adopt them pro- vided you were only required to do what all the dyers in the county were —I certainly should not object to that. We want all to be put upon the same footing, as we have the same market to contend with. 4363. (Professor Way.) I suppose that you are one of the largest indigo dyers in the district, are you not? —I am. There are several more besides myself. 4364. Is not dyeing by logwood much more common in this district than indigo dyeing 2–Yes. withdrew. Mr. JAMEs Robinson (Honley) examined. 4365. (Chairman.) You are a dyer –A dyer and millowner. 4366. Where are your works situated —At Smithy Place in Honley. 4367. What number of hands do you employ — From 100 to 120. 4368. Do you know what volume of water you use for dyeing —I do not. I have never made so minute an examination. 4369. Where do you get the water –We get the water from private sources for the purpose of dyeing. Some years ago, in consequence of ochre water or coal water spoiling the stream, a great many of the manu- facturers in the valley suffered very considerably in dyeing, and we had then to resort to other means of procuring water, which would enable us to carry on our trade. We procured water higher up in the stream and piped it for a mile. 4370. Then you bring down water from a spring for something like a mile by pipes?—Yes. 4371. Through earthenware or iron pipes?—Earth- enware pipes in the main. 4372. Of what diameter are they —Six inches. 4373. How much of those six inches is occupied by the flowing water?—About half. 4374. What is the fall from the head down to your works?—From 16 to 18 feet. 4375. Do you use steam power —Yes. 4376. What do you do with your ashes —They go on to the highways. 4377. Do any of them go into the river?—Not often. 4378. What is the name of the stream on which your works are situated —The Holme River. 4379. The Holme which flows by Holmfirth –Yes. 4380. Do you for power avail yourself of the water which comes down the Holme River ?—Yes, we have water-wheels. 4381. How long have your works been upon that stream 2–More than 50 years. 4382. Then they were there at the time of the Holmfirth flood –Yes. 4383. Did you suffer at all from that flood?—Very considerably. 4384. Did it do you any serious injury –Yes, we had more than 2,000l. damage from that flood. 4385. Do ordinary floods injure you ?–No, except in case of very continuous heavy rains, 17159.-2, 4386. Has the river bed, opposite your works, been raised at all since you can remember it 2–Yes, from precise observation, I think that it is from six to nine inches higher now than it was 40 years ago. 4387. What works are situated above you?—There are many mills and dyeworks, I should think 50 and In 101’e. 4388. Do they pollute the river very much –Yes, very materially. 4.389. Supposing that you had to carry on your dyeing operations with the river water, could you do so 2–Not well. 4390. If you had not this private water you would be very much inconvenienced 2–Yes. 4391. What colours do you usually dye 2–Black and blues, and various other colours. - 4392. Do you use much indigo 2–A little, not so much as we have been accustomed to do, ours are principally blacks and other common colours. 4393. Do you use logwood 2–Yes. 4394. And other woods 2–Yes. 4395. What do you do with the refuse wood?—We burn it as a rule. 4396. Do you throw some of it into the river ?— Perhaps some may have been thrown into the river, but as a rule we do not profess to throw it into the 1'1 Wel”. 4397. Where does the soil refuse from the privies, from the working population, go –It goes on to the land. 4398. Not into the river ?—Not into the river. 4399. Do you know about what volume of foul water you turn out into the river ?—I could not state that. 4400. Do these samples (pointing to the bottles) represent anything like the refuse water from your works?—Yes. So far as regards the darker one, it is something like what is turned out from the dye- house, but the other is like what goes from the mill, and is run forward into tanks; there it is al- lowed to settle, and the sediment is thrown down by a chemical process. 4401. I suppose that you get the waste soap and oil out of it?—We do not get it, we let it off. 4402. Some other person gets it?—Yes. 4403. How long has that system been carried on 2 —Several years, nine years I should think. S -- Mr. J. Robinson. - 138. RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. J. Robinson. 26 Oct. 1866, 4404, You receive a payment for that water 2–Yes. 4405. Did you lease the right for a term of years? —No, we give no lease, it is a voluntary yearly arrange- Iment. 4406. Does the person pay you according to the amount of matter which he gets out, or a lump sum ? —It is so much per annum. 4407. Have there been any complaints by those persons below you, of your fouling the river?—No, we have had no complaints made to ourselves. 4408. Have you complained of the people above you?—We have complained on account of material thrown into the water, or at times on account of our neighbours higher up in the valley throwing in exca- vations and matters of that sort; that has been very considerably done. 4409. They have put in excavations and solids of that kind 2–Yes. 4410. And those come down and affect you ?–Yes. 4411. What reservoir room have you ?—Ours is more a goit—perhaps half an acre. 44.12. How often do you cleanse it out in the 12 months?—Not more than once. 44.13. And you flush it into the river ?—We draw the water off every week. 4414. But do you send out the mud every week?— Only what the water takes. 4415. Only what the water takes when drawn off? —Yes. 4416. What is your opinion with regard to the pre- sent state of the river, and its being continued – There is no doubt that the river is in a very bad state, especially for manufacturers. As regards dyers it is impossible for them to do the business profitably or well in the present state of the river, if they have no other water to fall back upon. But in our valley, I think, since we had the injury which arose through the coal water getting in some years ago, most of the manufacturers and dyers have resorted to other means of providing themselves with water with which they can dye. 4417. At what point was that ochrey water sent in? —At the very highest point. 4418. From some coal workings —Yes. 4419. To whom do they belong —To Mr. Tinker. 4420. Did that ochrey water spoil any of your pieces?–We had some colours spoilt at the time. Of course it put us to a great deal of inconvenience as well as many other persons all down the stream. 4421. Do you know whether any actions were threatened 2–I think there was something of the kind attempted, but the attempt failed, and the thing settled down. 4422. Does ochrey water come down now 2–Not to the same extent. There is always more or less arising from the coal workings; we have several coal workings up the valley, and of course they are obliged to discharge it ; they have no other means whereby they can get rid of the ochrey water. 4423. Do you think that it would be advisable to put the rivers under some sort of superintendence or supervision in order to prevent this fouling and neglect 2–I think that it would be very desirable if the water could be kept more pure, and if any reason- able means could be instituted whereby the different proprietors on the water could be got to keep out the refuse, and as much of the impurities as possible. 4424. Of course for your purposes you would rather have a smaller volume of pure water than the present volume of impure water P-We require as much water as we can get. 4.425. For your power – Yes. 4426. And for that purpose I suppose dirty water is as effectual as clean P-Just so ; it weighs the Same. 4427. It weighs heavier –Yes, but the difference is very imperceptible. 4428. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you turn the whole of your soap refuse from the washings into the tank — Yes. 4429. What is the character of the water which is let off from those tanks —The sediment is thrown down, and when it has gone down the top water is run off; it will of course have more or less of acid in it. 4430. Is that dark liquid (pointing to the bottle) a a fair sample of the water —I do not think that the liquid run off from our tanks is anything like so dark as that. 4431. (Professor Way.) But it is not transparent * —No. 4432. (Mr. Harrison.) You have stated that every week you let the water flush out the goit, but that once a year you do more ; what do you do upon that occasion ?—We cleanse the sludge out, so that we can get the water better to the pipe which supplies the engine for condensing purposes, and we have a water- wheel. A body of water is turned out, and the mill is moved and flushed, so that it gets out of the bye- wash. 4433. It goes down to your neighbours ?—It goes down to our next neighbours. I suppose that they get a portion of it as we get it from others. 4434. (Chairman.) How long have you had your Local Board established 2–We are in the second year. 4435. Have you carried out any drainage –The village is drained ; there is somthing like a mile and a half or two miles of drainage, no village is better drained. - 4436. Where does the outfall go to ?—Into the I’IWel’. - 4437. Are there any waterclosets turned into it? —I think that in our district we scarcely have a water- closet which goes into the drainage because they cannot get water. 4438. Where does the night-soil go to ?—I appre- hend that it goes into private cesspools and on to the land. 4439. The people have private cesspools attached to their houses —Most of them have. 4440. And the cottages, I suppose, are numerous? —Yes. - 4441. Do you know what the death rate is in that village 2–I do not remember just now. 4442. Do you consider yours a model village?—No, I do not think that we are at all a model village. I wish that we were. - 4443. Do you find any advantage from your local government 2–Yes; we think that it is an advantage to us. 4444. You can cleanse your roads?—Yes; we have more jurisdiction, and better attention is given. 4445. Have you lighted the district –Yes, the village partially. 4446, Does the central government interfere with you oppressively 2–No, I do not know that they do. We have been very leniently and liberally dealt with in that respect so far. 4447. Have you had any inspector down upon any occasion ?—We had an inspector down to set out the township into districts. 4448. That is to say to divide it into wards — Yes. 4449. Who came down —Mr. Taylor. 4450. Do you find that system work better than having the members from the entire district f-We have members from the whole district, but the plan ensures their being better distributed over the district. 4451. It ensures a better representation of the whole district –Yes. Every ward has its own members. 4452. As a local board, I suppose you have no power to prevent nuisances going into the river?— None whatever that I am aware of. 4453. Not beyond your jurisdiction ?—No. 4454. All plans are submitted to you before houses are built, are they not —Yes, but I am sorry to say that we have not much improvement going on in that respect. 4455. You have not much building 2— Not at present. We have too many houses empty already. The witness withdrew. RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 139 Mr. JoHN HAIGH (Honley) examined. 4456. (Chairman.) You are a colliery proprietor —Yes. 4457. Where is your colliery situated 2–We have a small colliery in Thurstonland which abuts upon the township of Honley. 4458. What weight of coal per day do you raise from your shaft –It is not a shaft; it is an incline. We are employing about four men at it at present. 4459. It is a very small colliery 2–Yes. 4460. Does any water flow out of it 2–A little. 4461. Do you pump it —No. 4462. It flows out from a heading 2–Yes. 4463. Is the coal which you are working on the rise 2–Yes. The incline which we have driven is on a level, and it intersects the coal in this way (describing the same). 4464. And you work upwards and bring it out at the heading 2–Yes. 4465. Therefore any water which it makes flows out 2–Yes. 4466. Is that water ochrey —Out of one seam it is, 4467. Does it go into the river?—Yes. 4468. Have you had any complaints as to its effect upon the river water —No. Very little water flows out of that seam of coal which we are working now in consequence of the workings being small. Formerly, before a line of rails was made up into the district, we had a considerable quantity of coal, but now the coal is principally supplied from the thicker seams. Our seams are very thin. 4469. Of what thickness is that particular seam —From 16 to 26 inches in our district. 4470. What do you call it 2–The Halifax hard, or upper bed. 4471. Is it good coal?–For the description of coal it is. 4472. It contains some sulphur, I suppose 2–It does; the lower seam is free from sulphur, and the water is particularly good, fine, and soft. 4473. How near are you to the river ?–From our outlet the river is perhaps 300 yards off. 4474. Have you anything to do with polluting the river ?—Nothing beyond what may be said as to that quantity of ochrey water. 4475. You do not put anything solid in 2–No. 4476. Have you any remarks to offer to the Com- mission relative to the prevention of pollution of rivers ?—Certain observations have been made re- specting the ochrey water, but the water of an ochrey description now flowing is much less than it was formerly. Some 40 years ago it was much worse, and it affected the stream much more than it does now. 4477. I suppose that the ochrey water simply flows out in the prosecution of your mining 2–Yes. 4478. Would it come out whether you excavated the coal or not ?–It would, either directly or indirectly. 4479. You do not create anything, but your opera- tions are confined to the actual raising of coal —The water becomes worse if they take the coal out. 4480. For a time 2—For a time. - 4481. Does the ochrey element in the water go off after a time * Supposing that you exhausted that mine, would the water improve by being left to itself —Yes ; it would be less offensive, and less injurious. 4482. Your working and disturbing the seams brings more water out 2–The worst part is the stra- tum lying immediately above the coal, when that becomes exposed to the atmospheric air, though very hard of itself when wrought and forming a good wall to bear up the stratum above, it will become so soft that you can mould it like clay, and the water stopping upon it will become red, comparatively, like blood. When this water is let out it is injurious; but if the seam is not interrupted at all the water runs off so that you would scarcely perceive that it was water from a mine. 4483. Do you think that if the water from your mine was allowed to flow into a shallow canal, where it could be exposed to the atmosphere, a great por- tion of that sediment would remain –So far as the ochre is in it, the ochre would descend and remain. 4484. And the better part would flow away ?—The clearer water would flow away and the ochre would I’emaln. 4485. Would it be difficult for you to make the water flow through a parallel trench of that kind so as to take the ochre out of it 2–Yes, it would. We enter the extremity of the owner's property when we work a colliery ; we take all the level that we can at as low a point as we can, so as to intersect the mine at as great a distance as we possibly can. We should have to purchase the land for the deposit. 4486. Is the land very dear with you ?—No, I do not know that it can be considered very dear. 4487. What is it worth an acre P-From 100l. to 150/. 4488. Is it moor land 2–No, it is good pasture land. 4489. Has it ever been suggested to you that you should take some means to prevent the ochre from getting into the river ?—No. - 4490. Have you ever been threatened with actions for spoiling the water –No. 4491. Have you known any of the colliery pro- prietors to have been threatened with actions, or to have had actions brought against them —Something was stated to Mr. Tinker at the time of the outbreak which has been mentioned, but I do not know that any actions were commenced. 4492. Was that a sudden outbreak from old work- ings —Yes. 4493. Has that ceased ?–It ceased immediately, as soon as the water was run off. In the ordinary course that water would have passed by Thurston and Penistone and the summit of the hill, but Mr. Tinker in working coal hauled into former workings from whence this water was discharged, and this water had been accumulating in the mine for a considerable time, and then the matter out of the shale had so im- pregnated it that it produced injurious effects in the river. But in our water there is such an amount of softer water from the bed below that the injurious portion is scarcely perceptible; when it comes out there is five or six times the quantity of good soft water mixed with it, and there are other circumstances which have changed within the last 14 or 15 years, the water is less disturbed and runs out mixed with such a great amount of soft water that the inconvenience is not felt in our immediate neighbourhood, viz., in Thurston and up to Fulstone. I have not gone up the river for the last 14 years to make any examina- tion, having nothing to do with the river in any way whatever. 4494. At the time of the outbreak were not the streams up the Newmill Valley very full of ochre water 2–Yes. 4495. Does not that continue still 2–It is not so bad as it was. Up the New Mill Valley there is a good deal of ochrey water, but it is not so bad now as it was then ; more water from the lower bed of coal which is perfectly good and soft water is mixed with the ochre water and makes it less injurious. 4496. But still it is injurious –Yes. 4497. At the time when the outbreak took place was not there a good deal of ochrey water from your pits 2–No. 4498. There was some 2–Yes. 4499. Did that water flow into the river ?–Those pits are deeper now ; some ochrey water comes in, but it is mixed with a very soft water. HUDDERS- FIELD. The witness withdrew. Mr. J. Haigh. 26 Oct. 1866. S 2 140 RIVERS COMMISSION :--—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. J. Crosland. -- 26 Oct. 1866. --- Mr. Joseph CRosſ. AND (Lockwood) examined. 4500. (Chairman.) Are you a mill owner –Yes. 4501. Where are your mills situated 2–We have two mills, one at Lockwood and the other at Crosland Moor. 4502. Your brother is member for Huddersfield 3– Yes. - 4503. Yours is the largest mill near the toll-gate in Lockwood 2–Yes. 4504. What number of hands do you employ in that mill P-About 300. 4505. The river there is, I think, the river Holme * —Yes. 4506. You obtain water for your purposes from the river Holme 2–Yes. 4507. And you have a lodge there —Yes. 4508. Do you both wash and dye —No, we only wash goods. 4509. In what condition is the water when you have washed with it —It is of course impure, it is much sullied. 4510. Is it the colour of this sample —Not quite so bad as that. 4511. Is there much soap used with the washing 2 —Yes, but the soap and oil are afterwards extracted. 4512. How long has that been done —About 10 years I think. 4513. Do you use both water and steam power — Yes. 4514. What do you do with your refuse ashes — Formerly we put them into the river, but lately we have not done so ; we have used them with lime for building purposes, and now what the railway people do not take away we deposit upon some spare land near the mill. 4515. You do not put them into the river ?–No. 4516. Where does the soil from the closets belong- fing to your mill go –It goes into the river. 4517. Would it be difficult to retain it and to use it upon the land —Of course it would require special arrangements. 4518. You would have to alter your existing arrangements?—Yes. We have about six closets there. 4519. How long do you recollect the river ?–15 or 20 years. 4520. Do you think that the bed of the river has risen by accumulations since you recollect it?—Yes, I know that it has risen. 4521. Are your premises at all liable to be flooded in case of heavy floods?—No. 4522. Were you flooded at the time of the Holmfirth catastrophe – No, not to do any injury, the wheel was in very heavy back water at the time. 4523. But you were up out of the water —-Yes. 4524. The land is elevated there 2–Yes. 4525. Of what area is your reservoir 3–We have lately divided the reservoir; it was originally about tWO acres. 4526. You find it necessary to sludge it occasionally? —Yes. 4527. How frequently do you sludge it?—We have not been accustomed to sludge the dam for some years, but last year we divided our reservoir and made one part of it for holding clean water, which is about an acre in extent, the other part, which is about three- quarters of an acre, we use for the purpose of turning the water-wheel for power; that is the river water. 4528. Do you not occasionally sludge it —No, only to the extent of what the stream takes away every week. 4529. You run off the water on a Saturday night and a sludge bank is exposed on the Sunday ?–Yes. 4530. Do you find any injurious effect from that ? —No ; there were complaints previously to our reducing the size of the reservoir, but I have not heard any since. 4531. Do you never yourself feel any annoyance from it?—No, I am very seldom there when it is exposed. 4532. In hot weather do you not think that it would beliable to give off offensive gases —Yes, no doubt. 4533. Do you think that there are no means by which you could reduce that amount of offensive matter from the sludging?—By covering it with water or by cleansing it out. 4534. If you cleansed it out it would go into the river ?—Certainly. - 4535. And your neighbours would have the benefit of it 2–Certainly, if there was any benefit. 4536. You receive quite as much as you give?— We receive of course what comes down the river. 4537. I suppose that Mr. Wrigley gives you some of his refuse –Yes. 4538. Have you ever found fault with him for polluting the river ?–No. 4539. Has any person found fault with you?— No, I do not know that anyone has. 4540. What is your opinion with regard to the neces- sity of any interference with the present condition of the rivers in Yorkshire 2–No doubt if some practical arrangement could be made to reduce the impurity of the river it would be advisable to adopt it. 4541. Do you find the water worse for your purposes of washing than it was when you commenced operations there *-Yes, it is much worse. 4542. And I suppose that dirty water is not so beneficial even for washing as clean water would be 2– Certainly not. 4543. Do you manufacture a fine quality of goods? —Both fine and coarse woollen goods. 4544. Have you anything to add to, or anything to correct, in the evidence you have heard given during the inquiry —I am told that a witness said that water for steam power was worth 50l. per horsepower per annum. If that evidence was given I think that it is faulty. - 4545. Have you any idea what you value your own water power at per horse power –No, we do not get much water power. - 4546. Not now 2–No, and we never have done so. 4547. What would you value your steam power at, or what do you suppose it costs you?—I do not know; I have not run the sum up. 4548. Is it more like 121. or 15/. per horse power per annum ?–Yes, it would be. 4549. Is there anything further which you would wish to add to your evidence —With regard to the bed of the river it certainly has been raised by some means or other within my recollection. At the time when we put our water-wheel down it was placed to be quite clear of the tail goit. It is now from 12 to 15 inches in backwater, which of course has been caused by the obstructions at the mouth of our tail goit; in fact by the raising of the bed of the river. 4550. I suppose you have seen that both above and below your mill, drains from the opposite side discharge into the river, and that there is solid refuse of all sorts put in just below you ?—Yes. 4551. Scrapings of roads, foundation material, and every kind of refuse ?—Yes. 4552. Do you think that that should go on ?–Cer- tainly not. 4553. Do you not think that it is injurious not only to yourself but to all persons having to use water either for power or for manufacturing purposes —Yes, it it must be so. 4554. And if you had to suffer inconvenience by being obliged to take away all the solid refuse which you make, you would be willing to submit to that inconvenience if all manufacturers were treated alike? —Certainly. 4555. Do you ever find any ochrey water coming down the river now 2–There is a little at all times, but it is not of that serious detriment which it is on special occasions. 4556. There are special occasions when it comes down in very large quanties —Yes. 4557. And then it is liable to do you damage, | RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 141 you having no warning?—Yes; some 10 years ago, when Messrs. Tinker's works caused a large amount of ochrey water to come down, we sustained very serious damage, to the extent of some hundreds of pounds in two days. 4558. A few months ago do you remember any occasion of that sort 2–No. There is one point which I wish to mention to the Commissioners, namely, that we are now to a certain extent independent of the ochrey water, or even of the foul water from the river. By separating our reservoir we have made one acre of it into a clean water reservoir, and between Saturday night and Monday morning at 6 o'clock the water of the river runs very bright, quite clear, and during a part of that time we fill this reserve, which contains something like 1,000,000 gallons, which always serves us for the remainder of the week, so that you may say that we are independent of the foul water during the week. 4559. You are in a very much improved condition? —Yes. 4560. (Professor Way.) I take it that when this ochrey water issues from the ground it is really bright and transparent like other water; it is a solution of iron in the first instance, is it not *—Yes. 4561. And by exposure it deposits a red ochre 2– Yes. - 4562. After that is deposited the water comes down to you comparatively pure, and when it becomes heated it deposits iron, does it not *—Yes. - 4563. So that you have no means of judging of the amount of ochre in it?—Not always, but we have actually a large quantity of ochre coming down. 4564. It would perhaps require long exposure before the whole of the iron was deposited –It would. The witness withdrew. Mr. A. CRowTHER (Lockwood) examined. 4565. (Chairman.) You are a manufacturer — Yes. 4566. Where is your mill situated 2–In Lockwood. 4567. Is it below Messrs. Crosland's 2–Yes. 4568. What power do you use –Steam power. 4569. No water power —No water power. 4570. What class of goods do you manufacture ?— Doeskins principally and woollen fancies. 4571. Do you dye 2–Yes. 4572. Where do you obtain your water –From the I'l Wel”. 4573. How long have your works been there 2– 22 or 23 years. 4574. What is the condition of the water now as compared with what it was when you commenced operations 2–It is more impure now than it was then. 4575. What do you do with your ashes?—They are partly thrown into the river, the railway company takes another part, and they are partly used on the roads. 4576. Have you thrown them into the river ever since you established the works?—Yes. 4577. And do parties above and below you do the same —I believe so. 4578. Where do you discharge your refuse water —Into the river. - 4579. Is it very foul when it goes in 2–The dye- water is foul. I find that we pump 155,000 gallons of water from the river in the 12 hours. We use in dyeing about 6,150 gallons, say 6,000 gallons, but we use over 100,000 gallons of these 155,000 gallons in scouring wool. 4580. And does it pass off actually like this sample? —Yes; and the remainder is used in scouring of cloth, boiling of goods, and in finishing generally. 4581. Have you any means of filtration or of deposit so as to purify the water in the manner described by Mr. Crosland 2–None. 4582. You are obliged to use the water in its polluted state 2–As it comes to us. 4583. How much wool do you use –About 40 packs of wool per week. - 4584. And each pack weighs how much 2–240 lbs. Of those 40 packs, about one-fourth upon the average will waste ; that is, merely in washing. 4585. You mean in weight 2–Yes; that is to say, if we scour the washed wool (not the greasy wool, but the washed wool from Australia) we find that in scouring it will upon the average waste about one- fourth, so that out of 40 packs of wool as imported we have about 30 packs of clean wool. 4586. What is that wool worth per lb. ?—About 1s. 9d. to 2s. 8d. - - yº. Do you use any material besides wool — LCS. 4588. What do you call it, shoddy or mungo 2– Both. . 4589. Do you know what weight of it you use ?— I do not, 4590. Do you wash it at all?—It would be washed in the cloth. 4591. (Mr. Harrison.) And dyed 2–And dyed. 4592. (Chairman.) Have you no well or borehole, or means of getting other water than what the river affords you ?–At the time of the overflow of the ochre water some 10 years ago we bored, but we do not use the water from that borehole at all. 4593. Is it too hard –Yes, it is rather hard. 4594. Is it ochrey —No. 4595. Why do not you use it; is it not sufficient in quantity ?—We do not suffer very much from the river when we have a season like the present. 4596. Last year, when it was so continuously dry, how did you get on ?—We suffer more from ochre water from mines above than from anything else. 4597. Is the water too dark 2 I suppose that the darkness of it does not interfere with its value 2– Not much. - 4598. Do you, use much indigo –We use none at Lockwood. We have a small dye-house just above Mr. Robinson's, but that has only been used lately, and I do not think that I can give you any valuable information upon it. 4599. Has the river bed risen much since you commenced your operations —It has a little. 4600. Does it flood your works –No. 4601. Then you do not suffer from flooding 2– No. 4602. Did the Holmfirth flood do you much injury —The flywheel of one engine ran in water. 4603. Have you heard the evidence which we have received here as to the necessity of some measures being adopted to put the river in a better condition ?— Yes, I have heard a part of it. 4604. Have you yourself formed an opinion as to whether any measures are necessary or not ?–I think that with all the ashes and what not which are turned into the river measures may be necessary. 4605. Do you think that the dye water may go in 2 -—If there was any drainage of dye water I think that there would be left no water in the river to pass the mills. 4606. You have recently carried out sewerage works in Lockwood —Yes. 4607. Where have you made the outlet 2—Into the river. 4608. Have you drained many houses 2–Yes; a number have been drained in the lower part of the road. 4609. Does the refuse from them go into the river ? —Yes, but there are not many waterclosets. 4610. Then it is merely surface drainage —Yes. I think that we have more closets in Mr. Crosland’s mill and our own than perhaps in the whole neigh- bourhood. 4611. Would it be any hardship if you were told that you must not let the watercloset refuse go into HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. J. Crosland. 26 Oct. 1866. Mr. A. Crowther. S 3 142 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, the river ?—I think that you might say something far worse than that. 4612. What is the worst thing that I could say to you ?–To tell me that I must not put refuse and ashes into the river. 4613. Do you consider that it would be any hardship to be told not to put ashes in 2–I do not know where we should put them. For the last six months the railway company have taken the whole that we have made, but we consider that we make 600 tons of ashes per annum, and that upon the average we have put 300 of them in. 4614. You have heard the evidence which has been given, that the bed of the river is rising below and is flooding adjacent lands, and it stands to reason and common sense that if solids, such as ashes, are put into the river and bind together they must gradually bring up the bed of the river, so that if you went on for some years you might flood very large areas of land and a large amount of mill property most injuriously, and in fact destroy it 2–Yes. 4615. Do you not think that if you and all persons in your situation are dealt with alike, and are not allowed to put ashes in, you will find some use for them or some place to take them to ?—We should have to try. 4616. If you had not the river of course you would have been obliged to do something with them : —Yes. The bed of the river opposite to our mill may, perhaps, have risen some 12 or 15 inches in the last 22 years. We have a proof of it from Mr. Crosland's water-wheel. 4617. If the same causes are continued, do you not think that the effect will be continuous, and that if you have raised the bed of the river 15 inches in so many years there is every probability of your raising it further 15 inches —I think that there is every probability of it. 4618. Do you not think that that is more injurious in its consequences than the cost of removal by all parties of solids which they now throw in Sup- posing that you had to cart away the 300 tons per annum of your ashes, what would it cost you ?—It would depend upon where we should have to cart them. We shall be very glad to cart them away if any place can be shown to which we can take them. 4619. How long has your board been in operation ? About three years and a half. We have partly drained the district, and have lighted it. 4620. And you have put the roads in better order * —Yes. - 4621. Do you not use a large quantity of ashes for road forming?—Yes; Mr. Abbey I daresay will know that much better than I do, but I am sorry to say that he cannot take all the ashes away, 4622. Is Mr. Abbey your surveyor –Yes. 4623. (Mr. Harrison.) You have given us very valuable information as to the quantity of water which you use, and the quantity of wool which you dye. Can you tell us somewhat the proportion of mungo you add to the wool, otherwise the information falls to the ground 2–We do not use quite so much mungo, &c., as wool. 4624. (Chairman.) Your customers know that you use mungo 2–I suppose that they do. 4625. (Mr. Harrison.) And there is no doubt that it is a very great thing for the country that it is used as it is. It enables you to manufacture a cheap article for labouring men who have nice warm clothing which they could not formerly purchase ?—Any merchant who supposes that he can get a good black doeskin at 3s. a yard without mungo in it, only displays his ignorance. 4626. (Professor Way.) The use of this article now is not in the nature of adulteration, but mungo is a recognized article of trade 2–I should say that there is scarcely anybody who does not use it. 4627. It is not considered that there is anything derogatory in the use of it?—I should say not. That day, I should think, has passed by. 4628. (Mr. Harrison.) You and other gentlemen have mentioned the ochrey water which is so objec- tionable 2–Yes. - 4629. Do you know of any means by which the ochre could be stopped at the source so as not to form an occasion of mischief ?—I do not know. since the time previously referred to by several witnesses we have never suffered so seriously from it. 4630. (Chairman.) Did it injure you then?—Yes, very much indeed. 4631. It injured some of your cloth 2–Yes, we must have lost thousands of pounds worth of cloth which we could neither dye nor do anything else with. In fact, the water was so bad at that time that we could not use it for manufacturing purposes at all. It was an utter impossibility to do so. 4632. Is the water otherwise objectionable besides affecting your dyeing process 2–It affects the whole manufacture. 4633. But it does not affect the people on the banks of the river ?—No, I do not know that it does. I remember travelling to Honley on a Sunday at the beginning of this year, and the water was quite yellow with ochre, so much so that though it was Sunday, I went to the mill in the evening, and I told them that they must not start till I got there in the morning. 4634. (Professor Way.) You said that you made 600 tons of ashes in the course of the year 2–Yes. 4635. I suppose that the coal which you use here is the coal of the district. Is it the coal of Wakefield 2 —Yes, it comes from that part. 4636. Does it produce a good deal of ash 2–Not so much as some coal. 4637. Is it red ash or white ash –It is not a white ash, but it is not very red. 4638. What quantity of coal do you use in a year —About 100 tons in a week. 4639. The ashes then are about one-eighth of the coal?—Yes ; we tried what weight of ashes came in 24 hours away from a certain weight of coal. (Mr. Brooke.) I very much agree with Mr. Crow- ther. Mr. Crowther made a calculation, and found it to be 600 tons. (Mr. Crowther.) 15 or 16 tons of coal make two tons of cinders, so that the ashes would be about one- eighth of the whole." 4640. (Professor Way.) It would be 124 per cent. 2–Yes. - 4641. If we know the coal used in factories in this neighbourhood we may take that as a tolerably fair datum of the quantity of ashes produced generally 2– I think so. 4642. (Mr. Harrison.) And may we take the information which you gave as to the quantity of water used in dyeing and so on, as a pretty accurate statement for the whole district –Yes, I think that the quantity of water used would be about the same. 4643. (Professor Way.) I understood you to say that clean wool when scoured lost 25 per cent. of its weight?—Yes. 4644. That is not all grease, is it 2–Three kinds of wool come from the colonies. One is greasy wool in which I have not had much experience, but from the little which I have had I should think that it would waste one-half or 50 per cent. 4645. (Mr. Harrison.) And even more sometimes? —And even more sometimes; 60 per cent., I have no doubt. Another kind is washed wool, and that will still lose, after it is scoured here with urine, 25 per cent. ; we use nothing but urine. As to the scoured wool which comes from the colonies, some will nearly make its weight and some will lose 5 per cent. 4646. (Professor Way.) You know that there was this loss because you dried the wool —Yes. 4647. But you do not dry the wool before you scour it 2–No. 4648. You dry it in a stove —Yes. 4649. If it is not dried before it is imported its weight would be reduced from loss of moisture ?— Yes, but I give it you as we buy it. 4650. But you do not buy it dried ?–No. RIVERS COMMISSION :--—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 143 - 4651. If you dried it in your hot closet would it lose weight – I do not know. 4652. I ask that question because it is known that all animal matters contain 10 or 12 per cent. of moisture, so that we should be wrong if we supposed that 25 per cent. of solid matter was washed out of this wool 2–I do not know what weight of solid matter does go into the river. 4653. We must not put down that 25 per cent, as something valuable which you could recover from the liquid –No, I should conceive not. We once gave a quantity of water from the wool washing to a chemist to see whether it contained sufficient grease to be made available in the washing of goods, but there was such a large quantity of water and such a small quantity of grease that he could not see that any profit would atténd its precipitation. 4654. Do you separate the grease ?—Yes, from the water used in scouring goods. 4655. Do you do that yourself?–No ; we have parties who contract for it. - 4656. Do they do it on your premises 2–Yes. 4657. What is the nature of the liquid which runs away after they have separated the grease, is it a clear liquid –Not quite. 4658. Is it as bad as this (handing a small bottle to the witness) —Not quite. 4659. Is it nearly so bad as that P−I have never noticed it very particularly. 4660. If it was as bad as that it would come under your notice as a thing which ought to be kept out of the river even after the grease was separated from it? -—It is only what may be termed the very best that they deal with. When the cloth is scoured, for ex- ample, they only take what comes for a short time, and I should suppose that six times as much water is afterwards used upon the cloth and turned into the river containing a part of the grease. 4661. The water, after the grease has been ex- tracted, is not pure water?—It is not quite pure Water. 4662. (Mr. Harrison.) One of the witnesses to- day said that he sold his soap refuse, and that the whole of the water which was used in cleaning the cloth was sent into the tanks —He said that they were putting down tanks of the kind, but I should fear that after experience the matter will be found to be different. 4663. You think that they will object to take the whole of the water –I do not think that they will turn the whole of it in. 4664. (Professor Way.) The persons who contract to take your refuse get as much grease as they can profitably obtain out of it, and are indifferent as to what the stuff is which passes out into the river ?— They just get the very best of the grease out of it. First of all the cloth is scoured, then they will take the very best of the oil; then soap is used in the milling of the cloth and afterwards in the washing, and they just take the very thickest of it. 4665. (Chairman.) What weight of soap do you use in a week, or in a year –From 8 to 9 cwt. per week. 4666. What weight of available material is got from your washing refuse 2–I do not know. 4667. I suppose that they pay you not upon the tonnage of material which they obtain, but rental fixed by arrangement –I think that it has been so much per billy or condenser; it was so upon the first Onset. 4668. Do you know what they get for the soap which they take out of your refuse —No. 4669. 18l. or 201, per ton 2–I think that I have heard that it has been 18l. or 201, per ton, but that is not a matter which has concerned us, for we make an agreement for seven or ten years at a time. 4670. (Professor Way.) Have they ingress into your premises to do this, or is a part of your premises separated for the purpose ?—A part of the premises is separated, but still they come into the mill yard. 4671. Would you think it a very great hardship if you had to lay out upon the purification of the river some of that profit, which you now get from the waste soapsuds –I do not think that I should. If we can benefit each other as manufacturers, I think it very desirable to do so, if some plan can be suggested. 4672. It may ultimately turn out that the waste products, as in the case of gas water, may be so utilized as that income from one may be set off against loss from the other?—Then there could be no hard- ship in it. 4673. Excepting that some persons might grumble at a source of income being taken away from them which they now put into their pockets. I do not know what you are paid –Nothing extraordinary. 4674. 150l. a year 2–No ; some 50l. or 60l. would be the most for the refuse itself. 4675. We heard of one place where as much as 3,000l. a year was paid —That would be, I presume, in the neighbourhood of Bradford, where they wash the wool and use soap. 4676. (Chairman.) Did you hear the remarks of Mr. Wright Mellor as to what means are practicable for the preservation of the rivers and streams in this and other parts of England 2–I am not sure that I heard the whole of what he said but I was present during the latter part of the time when he was replying to your questions, and I should agree with his answers so far as I heard them. 4677. How long have you had experience of your local board P. Have you been a member of it since its first formation ?—Yes. 4678. Have you been chairman since it was first formed – No, this is the first year that I have been so. 4679. Did you ever hear any objections to local boards as being centralizing boards and that the power would be taken from the district 2–There was not very much of that sort of thing said with us. 4680. Have you heard of any objectionable inter- ference by the central board with your authority ?— I do not remember any. 4681. Have you ever had any occasion to ask advice —I do not remember it. 4682. You have to submit your plans to the central board when you are about to carry out your sewerage arrangements –Yes. 4683. Has any objection been made to them 2–I should think not ; but Mr. Abbey is better informed upon that point than I can be. 4684. Formerly, before the establishment of your Local Board, persons could build where they liked and how they liked, and could make any arrangements they liked 2–Yes, pretty nearly so, I think. 4685. You have jurisdiction over every building of every kind to be hereafter put up in your district?— Yes. 4686. The plans are submitted to your board —All of them I believe. 4687. And you discuss the arrangements, and if they are not of a proper kind you can object to those arrangements —Yes. - 4688. And I dare say that sometime you do object 2 —Yes. 4689. Do the parties modify them so as to remove the objections?—Yes; a general disposition is shown to do so, to meet the requirements of the law. 4690. All that they want is information ?–Yes. 4691. Do you think that that is beneficial or other- wise to the property of Lockwood —It must be beneficial. 4692. You yourself are a large ratepayer in Lock- wood –Yes. 4693. And all the members of the board are ratepayers ?–Yes. 4694. And it is left entirely to you as ratepayers to govern for the benefit of all the other ratepayers? —Just so. - 4695. Do you think that it would be possible to have a local board which would govern in the same way for the river ?–I should fear not. 4696. Why?—Because it is a very easy matter for HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. A. Crowther. - 26 Oct. 1866. --- S 4 144 RIVERS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. A. Crowther. - 26 Oct. 1866. Mr. J. Hopkinson. - a manufacturer to throw his ashes into the river, and there being a number of manufacturers on the board, we perhaps might be more lenient in that respect than we ought to be. 4697. Then your experience teaches you that it is an advantage to interfere with persons who are going to erect property, such as houses, mills, and other things?—Yes. 4698. If all the mill owners upon these rivers were put under restrictions with regard to what they should do with their solids and their fluids, do you not think that it would be an advantage to the whole -The Local Board, having to deal with the townships, has to deal with every person who wants to build, but in this matter there would be comparatively few who would wish to throw their refuse into the river, and those few would, in all probability, be the parties who would be upon the board. 4699. Do you think that if you were upon a drain- age board you would advocate your right to throw your ashes into the river if you thought that you could carry such a resolution —I do not think that I should ; but still we might be disposed to pass by the matter if we had difficulties ourselves. 4700. You might be disposed to look in a very friendly spirit at your own difficulties 2–We might. 4701. In a much more friendly spirit than an out- side person would 2–I think so. 4702. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you agree with the pro- posal of Mr. Mellor –Yes; I think that that is as good a plan as has been suggested thus far. 4703. That is to say, that if the nuisances which were to be stopped by Act of Parliament were clear and distinct, the county magistrates might appoint an inspector or inspectors, and that they should take up the offender and that he should be summarily punished, with an appeal to the Quarter Sessions?—Yes; I think that that is as good a plan as I have heard suggested. 4704. (Professor Way.) You do not believe that any voluntary association of manufacturers will ever lead to that result –I should fear not. 4705. (Chairman.) Then it would be necessary to have a stronger power than you possess as chairman of your local board —I think that that would be better. The witness withdrew. Mr. Joseph HoPKINSON (Huddersfield) examined. 4706. (Chairman.) You are a civil engineer — Yes. 4707. Practising in what district –In Lancashire principally, but I have works here. 4708. What do you regard as the annual value of horse-power for steam purposes?—it varies from 101. to 20/, and we pay taxes for it in addition. 4709. You put up steam power, and its rental would be from 101. to 20l. according to position?— Yes, and according to the room which it occupies : for light machinery we charge 20ſ, for the room and power and we pay the taxes. I have let a consider- able amount of that power. 4710. What do you find for that ?–Room and OWel'. 4711. And you maintain it 2–Yes, and oil the shaftings and everything. 4712. What is the relative value of water power 2 —I do not know much about water power. 4713. As it is less certain it would be considerably less valuable 3–Certainly. 4714. Then you would think that 10l. or 12ſ. per horsepower for water power would be quite enough?— I should not like to pay that amount compared with steam power, because we find steam for heating the rooms, &c. for the price which I have named. 4715. Have you paid attention to the question of smoke prevention ?–Yes. 4716. Do you think that it is practicable to prevent smoke 2–I was one of the competitors for the 500l. prize at Newcastle-upon-Tyne some dozen years ago, and I believe that I stood second on the list, and during the trials I may say that there was not any more smoke from the chimney than there was from a common cottage chimney. 4717. Do you think that in preventing smoke the process would be injurious to the boilers?—It all depends upon the mode in which it is prevented. 4718. There is a method of preventing it which would not be injurious to the boilers ?–Decidedly so : in fact there would not be so much wear and tear of the boilers as with the present mode of firing. 4719. Would it also save fuel ?—Certainly. 4720. And could you do it with any kind of coalf —Some coals are much better than others; you require a different mode of firing, according to the different qualities of coal and the different water and the draught. 4721. Do you want more boiler room when you burn your smoke 2–No, I generally recommend the making of the fire in the hottest manner that you can, at an extreme heat if you can get one, that is for con- suming smoke and saving fuel. The general notion - - has been that there should be slow combustion, but I have always found that to be the worst plan. 4722. Have you had experience with regard to the special subject of our inquiry, river pollution?—A little; I have lived near the river Holme and I have often complained of my own property situated along the river being very much injured by it. 4723. You think that the pollution should if possible be prevented 2–Decidedly. 4724. You are not a local manufacturer 2–No. 4725. And you have nothing to do with local manu- factures —No. 4726. Is there anything further which you wish to add 2–I would observe upon the question of what can be done with ashes, that my works I think are as large as the works of the last witness, and we do not put any ashes into the river at all, we find parties to come and buy them occasionally. 4727. Where are your works situated?—Upon Colne Road, just by here. 4728. Are they upon the banks of the river?—They are not far from it. 4729. Have you ever put any ashes into the river ? —No. 4730. Would any person fine you if you did so *- No. 4731. You find that there is a sale for them 2–Yes. 4732. How would you apply them 2–For brick making. 4733. Do you use them instead of sand for mortar P —I always have done so myself. 4734. And they make better mortar –Yes. 4735. Stronger ?–Yes. 4736. If sand has value for that purpose ashes have more value –Yes. 4737. Do you think that they might be used in any way for filtering dye water 2–I cannot speak with certainty, but I should think that they might, just as any vitrified matter, as sand, the principle is just the Sänle. 4738. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you made any experi- ments upon the saving of coal by the mode which you cmploy for consuming smoke –Yes, a great number. 4739. What was the result 2–The result was a saving of fuel of from 17 tons a day down to 13 tons at the Meltham Cotton Mills. 4740. Were the mills doing the same quantity of work –Yes, I do not say that it was altogether in consequence of the consumption of the smoke ; it was from a better mode of firing as well. 4741. (Chairman.) In smoke burning the mode of firing is perhaps of as much consequence as anything else?—Yes; if a man who understands the mode of RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 145 firing will attend to it, but the attention of the men is the great difficulty. 4742. Then do you not think that a superior class of men ought to be employed, and better wages paid, upon the condition that the men prevent smoke –Yes, that is what I should consider the best means of pre- venting smoke. 4743. That good wages should be paid weekly and that a sum should be paid to them quarterly on condi- tion" that there were no complaints during that quarter 2–Yes. 4744. And that if there were complaints a deduc- tion should be made from that surplus money —Yes. There was one mode which Mr. Brooke at the Mel- than Mills employed some years ago. He fixed a standard of so many tons of coal a week to be con- sumed, and for every ton saved below the standard he paid the men ls.; in the first month the men had 24s. to draw, so that it showed that 24 tons less of coal had been used in that month. 4745. What were the coals worth —They were then worth about 10s. 6d. a ton. 4746. Then the proprietor saved ten times as much as the men gained —Yes. 4747. (Mr. Harrison.) What was the gross quan- tity used ?–13 tons a day. 4748. (Chairman.) Is there anything further which you wish to add 2–I have heard the waterworks mentioned. If we had a more liberal system of water- works in this town, so that they would allow water for steam engines, particularly small steam engines for warehouses, as much water as they required, the waste water from the engines would perhaps be a means of cleansing out drains and also of neutralizing a great deal of the dirty water in the river. 4749. You mean that it would be an advantage if more waterworks were established in the district so as to bring more pure water into it?—Yes. The witness withdrew. Mr. JoHN Cooper (Fartown) examined. 4750. (Chairman.) Where do you come from ?— Erom Fartown. 4751. This plan represents some property about which you wish to speak?—Yes. 4752. By whom was this plan made 2–Mr. Brook the surveyor. - 4753. How far is this property from Huddersfield 2 —It is about a mile and a half. 4754. Is it above Huddersfield or below 2–It is on the north side of Huddersfield. 4755. There is a brook called Blackhouse Dyke —Yes. - 4756. How long have you known Blackhouse Dyke? —Ali my life. 4757. In what condition is it now 7–The water is very much fouled. 4758. What fouls it 2 — There are manufactories and farmyards and waterclosets, 4759. What population is there in Fartown Green? —There are perhaps about 100 dwellings. - 4760. Where do they get their water supply from ? —From Blackhouse Dyke. 4761. Is there no other place 2–No. 4762. Can they use it now 2–They are obliged to use it; there is no other water which they can have when it is foul. 4763. Is Sun Wood House a gentleman's house – Yes. 4764. Where is the water which is supplied to that house got from ?—There is a pump running down into the park, and the water is thence forced up. 4765. Does the owner of Sun Wood House take water from the same Blackhouse Dyke 2–Yes. 4766. And that is all the water which he has 2– Yes, there are pumps and drain water from the house. 4767. How long has this pollution been going on 2 —It has been considerably worse since a manufactur- ing establishment has been set up. - 4768. Near the “New Inn f *-Yes. 4769. What do they manufacture there?—All kinds of goods. - 4770. To whom does it belong —Mr. Henry Lister. 4771. Do they dye there?—-He does not dye, but he keeps stocks and washes. 4772. His refuse water comes down this brook — Yes. 4773. And into the Blackhouse Dyke 2–Yes. 4774. And it flows down the Blackhouse Dyke till it gets into the river Colne 2–Yes. 4775. And it pollutes the water all the way down 2 —Yes. 4776. Have you complained to any of the local authorities about it 2–We have not a local board in our part; there are only local surveyors. 4777. You have not a local board in Fartown Green 2–No. The neighbours all complain to each other. 4778. Had you a meeting at Fartown last night 2 Yes. 4779. Was it put to you, whether you would adopt the Local Government Act or not ?—Yes. 4780. How was it carried ?—The lower order of the ratepayers upset it altogether, they would not have it. 4781. Then do you think that you can come with a good face to ask others to help you when you will not help yourselves?—We who suffer from Blackhouse Dyke are only a portion of the hamlet of Fartown ; the hamlet is very large. 4782. It appears that the people are quite content to remain dirty —But the majority of those at Far- town have nothing to do with Blackhouse Dyke Water. 4783. Where do they get their water 2—They have the town's water from the Huddersfield Waterworks. 4784. Could not you get your supply from the town's water?—It has not come into our place ; we could get it, but we should prefer having that dyke because it used to be pure water ; there is not a purer water than it used to be. If we had a local board we could have drains to convey the refuse away. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 10 o'clock. Huddersfield, Saturday, 27th October 1866. PRESENT: ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THoRNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Mr. Edward BRooKE, jun., further examined. - 4785. (Chairman.) You have, I believe, some water, which is so much complained of by manufac- E. Brooke, jun. suggestions to offer as to the prevention of ochrey 17159.-2, Professor John THOMAS WAY. I think it occurs in this T turers on the stream?—Yes. HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. J. Hopkinson. 26 Oct. 1866. Mr. J. Cooper. Mr. 146 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, HUDDERS- way: the ochrey water comes from the day-holes, FIELD. Mr. generally speaking. I mean from abandoned day: holes, for from day-holes in regular work it is carried off day by day in very small quantities. After the day- P. Brooke, jun, holes have been abandoned the water dams up, and 27 Oct. 1866. -- - perhaps there is a fallen roof in the mine across the road for a distance of 400 or 500 yards, and when the ochrey water is of sufficient weight it forces itself through the shale and runs away into the stream, doing damage of course ; after having been pent up it comes out in a much heavier flood. If the mouths of the old day-holes were very securely walled up, the ochre would accumulate to a certain extent, but if air was not admitted, the ochre would not fall to the extent that it does when the day-hole mouths are all open and access is given to the atmosphere. 4786. You think that it would be a great advantage when mines have been worked out to effectually close the day-holes, so as to prevent this escape of ochrey water any accumulation would be retained in the workings, and there would be only filtration; if any water came out, it would come through the stratifica- tion, and although it would still contain some of the iron, it would not be so injurious as the great floods of ochrey water which break down any temporary dam? —I do not think there would be much filtration after the day-holes were securely walled up ; if they were sealed up close, the production of the ochrey water would go on for a certain time, perhaps two or three years, but I think that it would then, to a certain extent, cease, because all the workings would be full of water. * It is common in collieries to dam back an immense quantity of water, as much as 40 lbs. or 45 lbs. to a square inch, at the back of the dams. 4787. At the present time who would have a right to interfere with those old day-holes?–Government might compel them to be walled up as they compel old shafts to be fenced round. 4788. Government might, by a special provision, do so, but suppose the millowners down the stream who suffer so seriously wished by combination to have those day-holes walled up, could they do it?—I believe that the colliery proprietors would not object, as the expense would not be very serious to them. 4789. Would the water be likely to interfere with the working of any future seams of coal —No, not in this neighbourhood; they are pretty nearly worked out. There are many old day-holes in the neighbourhood which are left open, and are continually discharging ochrey water. If they were walled up, I think the thing would be stopped. 4790. Do you think that the manufacturers, if they combined together, could now effect that improvement? —I think so. I have not examined the day-holes sufficiently to say what the expense would be, but it could not be very much. 4791. In the event of a board of conservancy being established, do you think that is the way in which they might effect a great improvement in the quality of the water –Yes; the ochrey water will never cease running until the day-holes are walled up, because as long as you allow the atmosphere to get into the shale, and the water to pass through, ochrey water will form and will keep running out. 4792. Do you think that the colliery owners would consider it a hardship if they were compelled to wall up these day-holes?—Not unless the day-holes to be walled up were connected with the day-holes that they are working. A great many of the day-holes about here are abandoned. 4793. (Mr. Harrison.) Would not the work require to be done very securely 2–Yes. 4794. The drifts rising from the day-hole upwards and then the workings rising again would probably in a very short time cause great pressure upon the masonry –Yes; but there would not be nearly the same amount of pressure that there is in all collieries where they dam back quantities of feeders. 4795. Whatever was done must be done very se- curely, otherwise the remedy might prove worse than the disease, if the masonry were to give way ?–Yes, 4796. (Professor Way.) The plan you propose is to prevent the formation of the ochrey water. Sup- pose it is impossible to accomplish that, do you think anything could be done to separate the ochre before it gets into the stream 2–Yes. If the discharge from the old day-holes were made to run on, say to a large reservoir, covering an acre or two, the ochre would settle down very quickly, and then it could be carted away at about 5s. a ton. We have recently taken to some old workings at Elland; the water is dammed up there, and in the course of two or three years there will be a sufficient accumulation to make it pay to sell. 4797. If the liquid water containing the iron was spread over a large surface to allow the carbonic acid to escape, the iron would separate, would it not, in a great measure from the water?—I have no doubt of it. 4798. Island to be obtained for that purpose 2–In the neighbourhood of the mines I should think it is. 4799. Do you know what quantity of iron there is in this water?—I have an idea that it is very con- siderable, because there is so much in our own colliery workings that we have to buy the canal water instead of using our own, although we pump 500 gallons a minute. 4800. Are you aware that one gallon would contain as much as three grains of oxide of iron 2–I know that the quantity is very large indeed. I think the colliery waters are as bad here as anywhere. 4801. It is your opinion that it is not at all impos- sible to purify the water if the dammiug up of the day-holes could not be accomplished?—It is. 4802. (Mr. Harrison.) Are the drifts much upon the rise?—Yes; they are generally worked on the rise. 4803. Is that rise considerable 2–No ; the inclina- tion of the strata in this district is generally about two inches to a yard. 4804. The drifts frequently do not follow the strata ? —The rise of the strata is generally an inch and a half to a yard, on an inclination from the mouth of the day-hole. - 4805. Is it not possible to make little dams across an abandoned drift at several places, and so form a reservoir or settling tanks within the drift itself – Yes; and that is the way we do it at Elland. The water settles in a long place of about 300 yards in an old drift that is dammed up at the front. 12 months have now passed, and there are now about four feet thick of solid ochre. We have sold it to a man there at 5s, a ton; he takes it out in carts and puts it into a large square hole to let the water settle away from it, so as to be able to put it into his cart, and when it is sufficiently stiff he carts it away. 4806. Have you some drifts now from which the water, after the settling of the iron, has to pass down the valley below –Yes; that is in the Elland valley, not in this. 4807. (Professor Way.) Does the water, after that settlement, deposit again when it comes out in the open air, or are the brooks that come from it red 2– I have not particularly noticed that, but I should say, perhaps, if the flow of water is considerable, the first settlement is not complete. 4808. (Chairman.) Common sense would suggest that coal owners in working their mines ought, if possible, to be required to work them so as not to injure the property of other people —I should think SO. 4809. If they are allowed to work them in a negli- gent manner, would it not be wise in future to compel them to work them in a careful manner –The evil does not arise from the negligence of the colliery owners; I believe that they cannot prevent the water coming out unless they wall the day-holes up. 4810. They can prevent an injury being done if they adopt the steps you have suggested 2–Yes. Suppose that a man has taken a lease of 50 acres, and he has worked all the coal out, and his lease is out, he has nothing to do with the ochrey water that comes out of the day-hole. - | RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 147 4811. Unies; he were required by law, when his lease had expired, to make the works as secure as science could make them, so as to prevent the nuisance you have spoken off-Yes. 4812. Would that be considered a great hardship 2 —I think not. The case would apply to ourselves; we should have to do it at Elland. - 4813. The cost would not fall upon the man who worked the coal, it would come upon the owner of the colliery; it would be an expense contingent upon the working of that coal?—The rule would be rather difficult to apply now, because to a great extent in Lancashire and Yorkshire all the mines that come to the day are worked out; the mines now in work are all deep sunk. - 4814. Anything that is done now must be done in some other way; the matter must be taken up where it stands?—Just so. 4815. (Professor Way.) Your opinion is that it is of great importance that this ochrey water should be kept out of the river, as it is one of the serious causes of pollution ?—I suppose it is, The witness withdrew. Mr. THOMAS BRookE (Huddersfield) examined. 4816. (Chairman.) You are a manufacturer — Yes. 4817. Where is your mill situated 2–At Armitage Bridge, in the township of South Crossland. 4818. What number of hands do you employ there 2–About 540 or 550. 4819. What form of power do you use –Steam and water combined. At times we have been able to run exclusively by water power, but we have ordi- marily to use steam power as an auxiliary. 4820. What amount of power do you use in water and in steam 2–I believe the water power has been indicated at about 140 horse, and the steam power at nearly about the same amount. 4821. What weight of coal do you burn per annum ? —About 5,000 tons; fully 100 tons a week. 4822. Would that produce about 500 tons of ashes per annum ?–Not less than 700 tons. 4823. What have you done with your ashes up to this time 2—Some portion of them has been used upon the roads, but the great bulk has been thrown into the streams and has passed away with the flood Water. 4824. Have you any reservoir room at your mills 2 —There is a long dam which forms a large reservoir. 4825. Is it a goit that leads the water in for power —Yes. - 4826. Do you sludge that out occasionally —Not oftener than once in about five years. 4827. When it is sludged out where does the material go to ?–Down the river. 4828. How long have your works been established? —From 40 to 50 years. - 4829. I suppose they have been increased from time to time 2–Yes; but they have been pretty large works from the first. 4830. Are there many mills situated above you?— Yes, a great many. 4831. Has the number been added to since your mill was established –Yes, a very large proportion of them have been built since that time. 4832. In what condition is the water now as com- pared with what it was when your mill was first established 2–I cannot remember that, but I have not the least doubt that it is very much worse. 4833. In what state is it now 2–We have not used the river water for manufacturing purposes for perhaps 30 years. - 4834. You have abandoned its use for that time —Yes, we have got a good and independent supply of pure water. 4835. How do you obtain that ?–We have two bore-holes, one about 73 yards deep, and another about 111 yards deep, from which we obtain a large supply of water; we have pumps working day and night. One bore raises about 1754 gallons per minute, and the other about 149. On Saturday after- noon we do not work; and I calculate, making an allowance for that, and also for occasional stoppages, that the pump will work six days of 20 hours every week. Besides that there is a pure stream that flows down some property of ours, and we have a reservoir into which a part of that is diverted, and another system of pumps which pump somewhere about 100 gallons a minute from it, and those pumps are working both day and night. - 4836. You are exceptionally situated as to water : —Yes; we have a fair supply of pure water, and we use it for all manufacturing purposes. We use river water for condensing in the engines, and after that for feeding the boilers. 4837. Do you find that it answers for feeding the boilers ?—Yes; we have not at present had any damage done to the boilers by the water. 4838. You find it is better for the boilers than spring water —I fear we could not supply them with spring water. Our boilers are all made now of Low- moor iron, but some years ago they were made partly of Lowmoor iron and partly of Staffordshire iron, and we found that the water affected the Staffordshire iron materially, and that the plates became very much honey-combed, whereas the Lowmoor plates at the same time stood the action of the water perfectly, and we have hardly any incrustation in the boilers from using the river water. 4839. Have you had any analysis made of the spring water —We have, but I am sorry to say I have not been able to lay my hand upon it; it is remarkably soft water. 4840. Do the springs vary with the seasons?—Not in the least. We have not been aware of the slightest alteration during the whole time that that system of pumping has been in operation, except in the case of the supply pumped from the stream which I named; but with the bore-holes we have not had the least variation. 4841. Do you know how deep the pumps are placed from the surface in the bore-holes or wells? —No. 4842. Does the bore-hole commence at the surface 2 —I do not know, but I think one is a well of con- siderable depth, continued by a bore-hole. 4843. How far are the two bore-holes distant from each other ?—I think 50 yards. - 4844. Do they produce a similar quality of water 2 —Yes, very similar. 4845. So alike as to make you believe that they come from the same springs —Yes; we fancy so, the water is remarkably soft, almost too soft for dyeing. The men say that they cannot keep it in the pans, because it boils so quickly, and before they get any wool in, it is almost all over the dye houses; it is a strong alkaline water, of wonderful power in scouring and cleansing wool. - 4846. (Professor Way.) Is it more than simply not hard 2–Yes, it is strongly alkaline. These pumps together pump up about 510,000 gallons in a day, and we use the whole of that for manufacturing purposes. 4847. You use that for washing and dyeing 2– Yes. This bore-hole water we do not use for dyeing; we use it for scouring wool to the extent of about 250,000 gallons. 4848. What weight of wool will that quantity of water scour?—Nearly 2,000 lbs. of wool a day, not quite that quantity. The wool, after scouring, goes through three different baths; from the first bath in washing the scour out will be like that (pointing to a bottle), from the second it will be purer, and from the third the water will run out perfectly clean. Only a small portion of the 250,000 gallons will come out in that state (pointing to the bottle). - HUDDERS. FIELD. Mr. E. Brooke, jun. 27 Oct. 1866. - Mr. T. Brooke. T 2 148 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD, Mr. T. Brooke. 27 Oct. 1866. 4849. Is there anything that could be usefully ex- tracted from water in that condition ?—I am not aware, but I have seen some account of something having been extracted from it. 4850. In the shape of potash —Yes. 4851. (Chairman.) Have you any considerable area of land attached to your works 7–We have some land. 4852. Agricultural land 2–Yes. 4853. Of what extent 2–Of my own and the land- lord’s there are about 120 acres. 4854. You have probably heard some evidence as to irrigation by refuse waters from washing and dyeing 2–Yes, I have. 4855. Has it ever occurred to you to try such an experiment on your own land 2–No ; on our own land we could not do it without pumping to a higher level. 4856. Suppose you could get double crops of hay from your land by irrigating it, would the profit not pay a considerable part of the cost of pumping, if not all?—Yes, it might. 4857. What is hay worth a ton in your valley — We grow very good hay, and it sells at about from 5/. to 6l. a ton. 4858. Do you know what weight per acre you get off your land —No ; but on the meadow lands we have some very heavy crops, nearly two tons off the meadow land. Off the top land on the moor not so much. 4859. Would you be surprised to hear that that land might by irrigation be made to produce twice or three times that weight of crop 7–No. 4860. You think you could find some method of utilizing the products from your works?—Yes. 4861. Are you aware that land under irrigation is producing from 40 to 50 tons of green crops per acre 2–Yes, I have read that. 4862. And in a good many cases six or seven cut- tings —Yes. 4863. Of sweet and wholesome grass for agricul- tural purposes —Yes. There are some fields between this and Halifax which are irrigated, and which show in a very striking manner the immense crops that can be raised from ground so treated. 4864. In the event of any law being enacted pro- hibiting you from turning waste dye water into the stream, you would not be placed quite in the same difficulties as many others would be with regard to utilizing it 2–No. - 4865. If irrigation by such refuse is proved to be profitable, you would be benefited rather than in- jured 2–Yes. 4866. You can pump all the well water to consider- able heights for a very small cost 2–Yes, our own system proves that. 4867. In the great metropolitan waterworks they can pump about 90,000 gallons of water 100 feet high for a working cost of 1s., and a very large volume of water may be pumped 100 feet high at a very low working cost 2–I believe so. 4868. What does your coal cost you ?—We get it principally from the Barnsley district and Thornhill ; it averages now, I think, nearly 8s. per ton. 4869. Is it a good quality of coal —Yes, but we use some that is very much lower. I am averaging the cost of the gas coal and everything and it is from 6s, to 8s. 4870. Do you use slack —Not much ; we con- sider that it is best to have the better quality of coal. 4871. Are you at all inconvenienced by floods?— Not so much as we used to be. 4872. Have you carried out any improvements which have prevented the injurious effects of flooding: —No ; The river Holme is better regulated now by the reservoirs at the top of the stream, which I think have prevented floods. 4873. Do you pay now for any water that comes down from the reservoirs?—Yes. I will, if you please, refer to the Holme Reservoirs Act, of 1853, in which is incorporated the usual Commissioners Clauses Acts. Below the Bilberry Reservoir the clause runs thus:—“Upon all occupiers of mills, factories, or “ other works or premises, who shall hold, occupy, or employ any fall of water situate below the site of the reservoir and embankment by the said first recited Act authorized to be made across the rivulet or brook called Diglee, at or near Bilberry Mill, and which mills and factories, or other works or premises, shall be supplied with water from any part of the said rivulet or brook called Diglee, between the side of the said last-mentioned reservoir and embankment and the point of junction of the said last-mentioned rivulet or brook with the river Holme, or which shall be supplied with water from any part of the river Holme, situate between the said rivulet or brook called Diglee and the point of junction of the river Holme with the stream, ri- vulet, or brook called Ribbleden, otherwise Rivieden rivulet or brook, a rate or assessment not exceeding in any one year for every foot of fall so held, occupied, or employed, the sum of 33s. per foot, and so in proportion for any less measure than a “ foot.’ That does not apply to us. 4874. A specified volume comes down 2–No ; there is no specification of that kind. 4875. If the occupiers are to pay 33s. per foot fall, I think you will find it says that there shall be a steady outflow of a certain quantity of water 2–No. I be- lieve there is no such stipulation in the Act. 4876. Then how is the discharge regulated ?–There has been a committee appointed of some of the directors of the reservoir, and practically it amounts to this, that in each valley they have found out some mill which they have taken as a standard, and a fair supply to that mill is found to yield a fair supply to millowners below. 4877. (Mr. Harrison.) Where is the supply to the reservoir obtained?—The drainage area is 1,960 acres. The rainfall in that collecting area is much larger than it is in the other two collecting areas, although they are not very distant. - , 4878. Is your reservoir sufficiently large to inter- cept all that ?—We cannot sometimes, because the º waters come in so strongly, we cannot take it all. 4879. So that a large quantity passes away ?––Yes, in heavy floods. We have no specified volume to send down. •There is a heavy rainfall above that valley. 4880. What quantity do you draw out daily –I am not prepared to say, but it varies very much. On the Ribbleden Brook, below the Holme Styes Reser- voir, and right down to Holmfirth, our assessment for every foot of fall is 25s. per foot. 4881. We were told yesterday that 24s. was the maximum rate they were paying.—No ; that is upon another system. I may add that these rates as speci- fied would raise from the mills now occupied about 1,500l. a year, but that has been insufficient to meet the expenses of the Act. There is another clause which enables the directors to lay an additional rate, to be spread over the district, not exceeding 100l. a year. Practically, the rates are about 1/15th more than those rates. With regard to the Boshaw Whams Reservoir, the clause is, “Upon all occupiers of mills, “ factories, or other works or premises who shall hold, “ occupy, or employ any fall of water, situate below “ the site of the reservoir and embankment by the “ said recited Act authorized to be made across the “stream called Upper House Dyke, at Boshaw “Whams,” &c. “there shall be a rate or assessment, “ not exceeding in any one year, for every foot of fall “ so held, occupied, or employed, the sum of 18s, per “ foot.” Then there is a fourth rateable clause in these terms:—“Upon all occupiers of mills, factories, “ or other works or premises who shall hold, occupy, “ or employ any fall of water, situate below the “ sites of the aforesaid several reservoirs and em- “bankments at or near Bilberry Mill aforesaid, “ and near to the above Holme Styes Mill aforesaid, “ which mills, factories, or other works or premises “shall be supplied with water from any part of the « c << & « & . < & « º « * « « « « « & º 4. . º º < RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. I49 “ river Holme, situate between the points of junction “ and the said river Holme with the stream, rivulet, “ or brook called Ribbleden, otherwise Riveden “ rivulet or brook,” &c., “a rate or assessment not “ exceeding, in any one year, for every foot of fall so “ held, occupied, or employed, the sum of 45s. per “ foot, and so in proportion for any less measure than “ a foot.” Then lower down still the rate is 60s. per foot; with the exception of two mills which are speci- fied, that is what we pay. Our mill is situated on that part of the stream. 4882. Are you paying 60s. per foot fall ?—Our rate amounts to 75l., and the additional amount raises it to a little over 80l. 4883. How many feet of fall have you ?—I think about 25. Then lower down, after it joins the Colne, the rates are reduced considerably, as the system is different, and the riparian manufacturers do not get so large a proportion of water from this system of TeSeTVOII’S. 4884. (Chairman.) What arrangements have you made at your mills for privy accommodation ?—They are all open privies and ashpits. 4885. Does the overflow pass into the river ?—No. We use it for agricultural purposes. 4886. That is an arrangement of your own –Yes. 4887. Have you seen the newly-invented earth closets 2–No, I have not, but I have read of them. 4888. Do you collect all the urine at your works —Yes; and we use it in scouring. This (producing a sample) is the refuse that Messrs. Teall leaves after extracting the soap and oil refuse; it is not turned directly into the stream ; we have an amount of dry refuse produced in the mill, upon which they turn and filter this liquid refuse, and that makes the dry refuse more valuable as manure; of course the liquid must get into the stream, but not directly. 4889. You have stated that you use 250,000 gallons of water per day in scouring 2,000 lbs. of wool?— Yes, nearly that. 4890. What quantity of water do you use in the dyeing process —We use a different supply of water; we turn out from 11,000 to 12,000 gallons of foul dye water, which I believe is really the nastiest stuff that we do turn out of our works; it passes into the stream in that quantity per day. 4891. Does that resemble the black water contained in this bottle (pointing to the same) –Yes. 4892. What weight of wool does that quantity of water dye 2–We scour about 2,000 lbs. of wool a day; it is all dyed either as wool or cloth before it leaves our premises. Ours is principally the fine trade, and we use a small proportion of mungoes. We make some of the low goods, and I believe we use about 90,000 lbs. of mungoes in weight in a whole year. 4893. In cleansing cloth, what quantity of water do you use —I have not been able to calculate that, but we use the whole of the 500,000 gallons that we pump, and the remainer of it must go in the scouring and washing, and the finishing and other processes. 4894. How long have these bore-holes been in operation ?—One has been at work between 30 and 40 years, and the other for perhaps 20 years. 4895. Has it ever occurred to you to attempt to increase the volume of water by putting down an additional bore-hole —No ; we have not tried that. I may add that in some land of mine near, there is a large number of springs which are running into the river, and the water from them is not collected. I believe therefore that we might collect a larger body of water by going to the necessary expense. 4896. What distance are those springs from your works —They are not far off, within half a mile. 4897. At what elevation are they above you ?— The water would run by gravitation to the lower part of the works. 4898. It might be collected by contouring the land with earthenware pipes —Yes; we have had some such scheme under our consideration. 4899. (Professor Way.) The waters of the springs in this district are hard generally, are they not?— Yes, they are rather hard ; part of that water I col- lect for my own domestic purposes, and it is good. 4900. The quantity of water you use in the different processes is very large —Yes. 4901. Do you find it is expensive to pump —Not very ; though of course the power must cost something. 4902. Do you find it desirable to use those large quantities —Yes. 4903. If you had to deal with that liquid afterwards for the purpose of purifying it, the quantity would add materially to the cost would it not ?—I think, as far as I have been able to form any opinion, that what we should in that case have to treat would be 11,000 or 12,000 gallons, which is a manageable quantity. 4904. If you were obliged to purify the water and send it clear into the stream, do you think you should economise the consumption of water in the first instance by improved machinery —Yes, we might try that, but our goods require to be sent out in a particularly pure state. 4905. Wats used in finishing goods to get them free from matter that can be washed out of them would not injure the stream in all probability ?—The washing out processes after scouring are continued till the water runs away bright. 4906. A very little impure matter injures the cloth but does not much injure the water 2–Yes. 4907. (Mr. Harrison.) Why should not the last water of the washings, which comes out comparatively clear, be pumped up again to be used in the first pro- cesses for which pure water is not necessary 2—I have no doubt that that is possible, but as we have a con- stant supply of water we do not do that. 4908. It is perfectly clear that as you go on towards the last of the washing processes you get purer and purer water running out, which would be good enough to wash with at the beginning 2–Yes, no doubt. - 4909, You have no inducement to try that at pre- sent?—No. 4910. You might have a difficulty in managing it 2 —I imagine that it could be done. some of the witnesses yesterday, that they believed all water from the scouring would be taken by some chemists. In our case they only take the thick suds; of course, the valuable part is the oil, whatever oil there is in it. We are large consumers of indigo. 4911. Is it not possible that they may be able to purify those liquids by a better system of management? —I think so. 4912. They take the cream of your liquid now, and HUDDERS. FIELD. Mr. T. Brooke. - 27 Oct. 1866. -- It was stated by then they get the grease out of that liquid –Yes, . that is just the process. 4913. (Chairman.) How long has the experiment been carried on of extracting the grease and oil f—I believe our works were one of the earliest at which it was established. I cannot say how many years ago. 4914. Is it unfair to ask you what you are paid for it —Something very small indeed. I believe we have to provide steam for the purpose, and I doubt whether we put anything into our pockets by it. 4915. What weight of soap do you use in washing 2 —For washing and milling together we use about a ton of curd soap per month, and besides that we use nearly the same weight, although not quite, of soft SOap. $16. You use about 24 tons of soap per annum of the two kinds 2—Yes, or about 20 tons. 4917. What value does that quantity represent 2–. Curd soap is now about from 371. to 38l. per ton; the price of the other I do not know exactly, but I think 69s. per pack of 240 pounds. 4918. What amount of olive oil do you use —About 60 tons of the best quality. We use a very good quality of oil, but the price varies a good deal. 4919. The value of the waste products will be, of course, in proportion to the cost of the material used, and the amount recovered 2–Yes. I should imagine that the material we put in ought to be worth as much as could be got at any mill. We use about 60 tons of oil in a year, and that would cost about 3,000l. 4920. (Professor Way.) If you took the process T 3 150 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. T. Brooke. 27 Oct. 1866. to use it. into your own hands, would not the grease recovered by a proper method of dealing with it pay you for the expense of purifying all the liquids?--I do not know the value of grease, or what proportion is yielded after these operations, but I think it is very possible. 4921. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you ever known the grease that has been recovered used again in the pro- cess of cleansing the cloth 2–I have not. 4922. (Professor Way.) Are you aware that the products are taken to Messrs. Teall's works, and that the oil and grease are distilled?—No, I am not. We generally import our oil. - 4923. (Chairman.) It appears that the soap of the two kinds and the olive oil will represent something like 3,800l. per annum ?–Quite that, I think. 4924. If you receive 40l. or 50l., per annum, that is a very small item as compared with the gross expen- diture?—No doubt. For some time we were getting a very inadequate return for what was sent away. 4925. (Mr. Crowther.) I may be permitted, perhaps, to state that we use at least 4,000l. worth of material. I find that we use 7 cwt. or 8 cwt. of soap, and of oil we should use about 28 cwt. or 30 cwt. per week. 4926. How much does it cost you per cwt. -- About 591. per ton. 4927. Do you receive a rental for your soap waste P —Yes. - 4928. How much º–From 50l. to 60l. large quantity of oil in the shoddy. 4929. That is carried away by the cloth 2–No, it is waste, the oil is extracted from that. We make a ton There is a per week of heavy refuse, and that is sold again for so much a ton. The parties extract considerable quan- tities of oil from that. 4930. (Professor Way.) That is to say, all the oil is not dealt with in the way you have described. (The witness.) No, a very considerable proportion goes away in the heavy waste. 4931. (Chairman.) Have any complaints been made as to your fouling the water —Never. 4932. Have you made any complaints yourself?— No. 4933. Have you suffered from the ochrey water of which we have heard?—We do not use it for manu- facturing purposes, therefore we have not suffered. I have noticed it very much indeed. I remember on one occasion in January last when for two or three days the river was perfectly yellow for miles. 4934. If you had used that water it would have been to your injury –Yes; it was utterly impossible It would have destroyed our business for the time being, but it did not last long. I took up a large can-full of the water and kept it for some time. I live close to the water, and we do not experience any ill effects from it as a nuisance; occasionally after very dry weather, if there was a fall of rain, it was a little offensive, but never much so. 4935. It is not offensive as far as your experience goes so as to be injurious to health —No. One por- tion of our district nearest the water is the healthiest part of it. There is one most remarkable case I may mention : During the last year the mortality has been considerably less than one half what it was in the two dry seasons that preceded. In our ecclesiastical district I mean. 4936. Do you mean that the mortality is increased by extremely dry weather, and reduced by wet weather 2–Yes. 4937. That shows then that dilution of refuse mat- ters, whatever they may be, is so far apparently bene- ficial 2–Yes, I fully believe that. Some questions were put to a member of the Honley local board about their death rate. I have procured this return of the death rate (handing in the same.) 4938. Is there a local board in Honley —Yes. 4939. What is the population ?—The population in Honley in 1801 was 2,529, now it is about double. 4940. What is the population now 2–It was very much reduced at the last census, but I imagine it is increasing now ; it is nearly 5,000 now. In 1811 it was 2.918. In 1821, 3,501. In 1831, 4,523. In - - 1851 it was about 5,500, and it was reduced by nearly 1,000 in 1861. - 4941. It is nearly 5,000 now 7–Yes, or it was. At the last census there were upwards of 200 houses empty, and now there are not so many. 4942. Will not throwing ashes from the mills into the river by raising the bed ultimately injure very much properties below yours ?—Yes, it must be so. I do not think the bed of the river has been so much altered with us as the evidence shows it has been down below ; but holes in the river seem very much filled up in places, and where there are turns and curves in the course of the river there has been an accumula- tion of silt. Altogether I believe that the general bed of the river is slightly altered. 4943. There is a considerable fall where you are I believe –Yes. . 4944. The current is much more rapid than down below 2–Yes. 4945. Any serious deposit of material would be yº the stream is wider and more sluggish 2– e.S. 4946. In the lower districts you can imagine that where the stream is wider and the fall less this accu- mulation may go on until the river is raised above the adjoining land, and large areas may be swamped 2– Yes, I can quite imagine that. 4947. Are there any other facts which you wish to lay before the Commissioners ?—I think nothing, ex- cepting that I heard Mr. Crowther's evidence, and his experience seems very much to confirm my own. 4948. Would it be difficult for you to utilize or get rid of waste ashes?—At present they have been taken by a contractor, who is constructing a railway. 4949. Will the railway station be near your works 2 —Not very near. 4950. Do you anticipate that you might be put to some cost and inconvenience if you are not allowed to put them into the river ?—I imagine that probably there will be some plan of utilizing them discovered. 4951. Have you hitherto used ashes for making mortar for building purposes?—No, we have not had any building going on for some time. 4952. Have you heard the evidence that has been given with regard to conservancy for the valley of the Aire and Calder 2–I have. 4953. Have you at all turned your attention to that subject before or since this inquiry began 2–I have thought it over since the inquiry began. 4954. Have you come to any conclusion as to what form of legislation would be most advisable 2–It has occurred to me that probably some board elected from the area that is affected might be empowered to carry out any legislation, but I think it would require that they should be under some other control, either a Government inspector or a control of some kind. 4955. If a board elected by the persons who would have to find the money, and representing the different interests could sit in Huddersfield, having power to employ and pay a certain inspector or inspectors to prevent nuisances, or to carry out the law, and if the inspectors were appointed with the sanction of one of the Secretaries of State, or the Board of Trade, and held office independent of the local authorities, except in the case of flagrant misconduct ; if, in short, there were inspectors who were protected in the performance of their duties, do you think that would answer –Yes, if there were officers like the Poor Law inspectors. 4956. Have you found any difficulty arise from any undue interference on the part of the Poor Law authorities —I do not think so. 4957. (Mr. Harrison.) The water appears to be supplied from these reservoirs under Act of Parlia- ment. I suppose that Act was obtained at the insti- gation of the millowners in these valleys —Yes; there was a former Act of Parliament obtained. The bursting of the Bilbury reservoir rendered it neces- sary that a new Act should be passed, and it was obtained jointly by the mortgagees under the old Act and the millowners on the stream. - - RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 15; 4958. Those using the waters below, I suppose, take care that the supply comes down regularly 7–There is not generally so much interest shown in that as you might expect. Many of those who are really the most interested in the matter are on the board, and they give most active superintendence. 4959. You say that you have 25 feet of fall at your mills, what quantity of water do you get in the summer time?—I do not know. As to the ochrey water, there is a barrel culvert constructed under the embankment of the Bilbury reservoir to take away some of the springs which were supposed to have done the damage in the old bursting, and the water coming out of that culvertis very strongly impregnated with iron. - 4960. As to irrigation, do you know with what liquid the land at Salter Hebble is irrigated?—I do not know. 4961. You do not think it would be well to put waste dye water into sewage water destined for land irrigation ?—I think it would be very injurious. 4962. All that is matter of experiment —Yes; I believe that in the refuse we do turn into the river there is three times as much alkali as acid. 4963. (Professor Way.) Is the soap an antidote to the dye, or is it the dilution from the water carrying the soap that prevents the dye from being injurious f —I am disposed to think it is the dilution. 4964. Consequently you cannot say that the dye water is injurious?—No. 4965. (Mr. Harrison.) Are there not large quarries in this neighbourhood —Yes. 4966. If other means of getting rid of the ashes failed, would it not be practicable to take the ashes into those quarries —Yes. I may say that we have quarries on our own land, but I am afraid that in time the ashes would rather fill them up, and block up the access to the stone. In some parts there are very extensive quarries. - 4967. At what expense could you take the ashes to those quarries per ton —I do not know ; it is up a very steep hill. 4968. At Wakefield it was stated in evidence that they were obliged to wheel the ashes out of their yards into boats, carry them some distance, and then take them from the barges on to some spoil land, at an expense of about 1s. per ton; they are therefore put to that expense, to which many manufacturers here are not put. I suppose it would be no hardship if all manufacturers were put on the same footing 2 —No. - 4969. Do not you think that the right form of legislation is that each manufacturer should be com- pelled to purify his own waste water, and not Govern- ment, or the district should execute works to be paid for out of rates to be levied ?–I believe the whole district would be so benefited by purifying the water that it would not be a hardship to spread a rate over a great area for the purpose of paying the cost of inspection and the general machinery of the Act. I fully expect to pay myself for anything that may be required at my own premises. I think I have estimated the price of coal rather too high ; I think it averages about 7s, a ton. The witness withdrew. Mr. John BURGESS (Huddersfield) examined. 4970. (Chairman.) You are manager of the Hud- dersfield Gasworks –I am. 4971. Where are they situated?—In Leeds Road, at the lower end of the town. - 4972. About how many million cubic feet a year do you make of gas?—About 130,000,000 cubic feet a year. 4973. What weight of coal or other material do you use in making it –15,000 tons of coals; common house coal and cannel coal. 4974. What weight of coke do you make –About 9,700 tons. 4975. Do you find a ready sale for it?—Yes. 4976. About what quantity of tar comes from the distillation of that coal?—About 1,000 tons per annum. 4977. What volume of ammoniacal liquor is pro- duced 2–About the same weight. 4978. What do you purify with ?–With lime ; dry lime. 4979. Have you ever tried the iron process –We have not. 4980. What do you do with the waste lime –We sell it for agricultural purposes. 4981. Does it accumulate to any serious extent upon the premises at intervals —Never. 4982. You get it regularly taken away ?–Yes. 4983. What do you get per ton for the waste lime? —2s. - 4984. Have you ever tried it for building purposes, ground up with ashes?–No; but I know several parties who have tried it and found that the best part of the lime is taken away; it is more granulated; it does not stick. - 4985. If ground up with ashes it makes capital mortar for foundation purposes?—So I have heard. 4986. Is there any waste product of any kind passed into the adjoining stream from your works?— No. - 4987. If your cess-tank wants renewing with water, what do you do with the waste water –We never allow them to run over at all, we carry on without it. 4988. Is there any water or vapour condensed in the gas mains –Yes; there is some water condensed. 4989. How many gallons a year would come away of condensed material in the mains – About 40 gallons per week. 4990. What do you do with it?—That portion of it which is near the works we carry into the works, and put it into the ammoniacal water and sell it. 4991. Is any of it put into the sewers ?–None. 4992. Then you say that you do not pollute the sewers, or streams by any of the products from your gas making 2–Yes. - 4993. Do you attempt to consume your smoke in making the gas?–We do not burn any coals, there- fore we make no smoke ; we burn our own coke. 4994. If any person has said that you have polluted the streams with waste products, they have said that which is not the fact?—Yes; we do not turn any- thing into the streams at all. 4995. In fact you utilize everything that is used in making gas —Yes. 4996. (Professor Way.) Is it not a fact that the water which is condensed in the mains is rather more valuable than some of the other products?–Yes; there is more ammonia in it. 4997. And a quantity of napthaline –Yes; which is valuable. - 4998. You are not likely to throw that away?— No. In the higher end of the town, in an out district, the man who has to pump the condensed water up takes it to a manure heap from 500 to 600 yards off; as a rule we preserve it. 4999. (Chairman.) What do you obtain for your gas tar a gallon –We do not sell it so; we get nearly 11, a ton for it; we sell it in a lump, and for the ammoniacalliquor we get about 8s. aton. 5000. (Professor Way.) About a penny a gallon —Yes. --- - 5001. Do not you get more than that ?–No, I think not ; gas tar is not worth 1.l. a ton now, but I have known several contracts let at Manchester at 30s. As to the refuse from our place, we do not put anything into the river in the shape of ashes, or anything of that kind; we do not pollute the river at all; we cart away the ashes. 5002. Do you sell them?—No ; we have the liberty to put them in places where they wish to raise the land, and it costs us 1s. a load the year round. 5003. How many loads do you take away in a year? –700 or 800 loads in a year, I may say that for about some six months we have a very easy lead close to the works, and it costs us very little. The witness withdrew, HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. T. Brooke. 27 Oct. 1866. - Mr. J. Burgess, i 4 152 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. J. Wrigley, Esq., jun. 27 Oct. 1866. --- Joseph WRIGLEY, Esq., jun. (Huddersfield), examined. 5004. (Chairman.) You are a manufacturer?—Yes. 5005. With your father and brother ?–Yes. 5006. Where are your works situated —The prin- cipal works are in South Crosland. 5007. About what number of hands do you employ 2 —Between 200 and 300. 5008. Do you dye and wash —Yes. 5009. What weight of coal per annum do you use 2 —Rather under 2,000 tons. - 5010. Do you employ both water power and steam power —Yes, we treat the steam as auxiliary to the Water. 5011. What amount of water-wheel power have you ?—We have two water-wheels, nominally of about 30-horse power each. 5012. How often do you work them in a year?— We always work them ; they work more or less at all times. 5013. Are you troubled with floods 2—We have not been much troubled recently. 5014. Were you troubled previously —We had the Holmfirth flood, and one after that where the water stood in our premises still higher than at the time of the Holmfirth flood. 5015. Has the bed of the river risen perceptibly since you remember it 2–Holes and deep places have been filled up, but the bed of the river does not appear to have risen perceptibly. 5016. Have you as good a deliver from the tail of your mills as you ever had 7–We have not heard complaint of any kind. 5017. What have you done with your ashes hitherto ?—We have principally thrown them into the river. - - 5018. Is it inconvenient to dispose of them other- wise?—The difficulty is that we should occupy land which is now valuable; we have no quarries near us. 5019. If you are compelled to keep them out of the river, must you make a spoil bank —We should have to heap them up. 5020. And destroy good land?—Yes. 5021. Has there been any demand for ashes for road or railway purposes —To a certain extent, but not to a great extent; the supply largely exceeds the demand. 5022. You have not been so fortunate as Mr. Brooke 2–No. 5023. If any restriction as to casting ashes into running streams were put upon the general trade of Yorkshire, it would fall specially hard upon you?— Yes, it would. 5024. What becomes of the dye water ?—That is now turned into the river. 5025. Where do you obtain water for washing and dyeing?—We have a bore pump, and also the water of a stream turned into a reservoir. - 5026. A tributary stream 2–Yes. 5027. You do not use the river water —Except in dry weather, when the spring water is not sufficient; we then pump the river water at a time when it is coming by clear. 5028. On Saturday evening —Yes, and very early n the morning it is clear frequently. 5029. You have reservoir room for that purpose?— Yes. 5030. Of what area 2–It is not large ; a third of an acre perhaps. 5031. Is it necessary to sludge the reservoir occa- sionally —Very seldom ; it has not been done for many years. 5032. If you did sludge it would be scoured into the river ?—No, we should sludge it by hand, and wheel the contents out. 5033. Then you use the sludge as manure ?—It has not been sludged for the last 10 years, and I cannot speak to that. 5034. What conveniences have your workpeople provided for them 2–Common privies, 5035. And ash places —Yes. better sample than Mr. Brooke's. 5036. Do you utilize the refuse for agricultural purposes?—Yes. - 5037. Have you land of your own in the neighbour- hood —Yes, we have some little land. 5038. Do you sell the refuse from the privies or use it —We use it. 503.9. Have you made any calculation as to the quantity of dye water you use or pass away ?—I have not made any calculations as to that point, but I may say that I have heard the evidence which has been given, and I should be inclined generally to concur in the figures which have been stated. 5040. Have you suffered from ochrey water coming down —It is one of the worst and most hurtful pol- lutions that we can have ; it would prevent us using the river water. 5041. Do you think that, if practicable, some means should be taken to compel owners or workers of coal to use all due precaution to prevent ochrey water finding its way into the river ?–Yes; for however the river might be otherwise cleansed its water could not with confidence be used if at times it contained ochrey Water. 5042. Did you hear Mr. Brooke give his evidence? —Yes. 5043. He suggested that the day-holes should be walled up?—Yes. 5044. Which would prevent oxidization ?–Yes, but I do not like to give an opinion upon that subject, not knowing anything about it. 5045. If it will not involve more than a reasonable cost, I suppose you would say that parties ought to be compelled to prevent the nuisance?—I should. It is most necessary that this ochrey water should be prevented coming down into the river. 5046. Do you produce any of this greasy dye water (pointing to a bottle) —Yes, we do. 5047. Do you recover any portion of the grease ?— Yes; so much at least as is produced after washing and scouring the cloth. 5048. Is it utilized on your own premises or sent away ?—The grease and oil are extracted on our own premises and then sent away. 5049. Extracted by you or by the lessee?—The lessee. 5050. How long has that process been carried on on the premises —Not very long. 5051. So far as that oil and grease are extracted the pollution is lessened from your works?—Yes, there is less grease and oil turned out. A question has been raised as to the condition of the refuse water after it has had the grease and oil extracted from it. I have here a sample of it as it leaves our works; ours is a The question is how much acid the liquid contains; its appearance may depend somewhat upon the colour of the cloth that has been scoured. 5052. (Professor Way.) Is there any reason why this (pointing to one of the samples) should not be made better than it is 2–I really cannot say ; it has gone through the filter and that is the condition in which it came out. I believe there is a gentleman here who will explain the operation. 5053. (Chairman.) You know, I presume, that acid is used to precipitate the soap and the oil –Yes. 5054. Do you think it might turn out that the material after treatment, containing acid, might be more injurious than material before treatment —It might, but I do not say that it would. 5055. You think the experiment ought to be fairly worked out 2–Yes. 5056. I suppose it would not be an improvement if extraction of the grease and oil tended to make the refuse water more injurious —It would not. 5057. Have you formed any idea as to what sort of dilemma you would find yourself in if you were told not to turn refuse water into the stream 2–At present we should not know what to do, but I may say that if science can devise some scheme, and show it to be RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 153 practicable, I believe that there is the utmost desire on the part of the manufacturers at once willingly to adopt it, but to be told before being shown we should feel to be a hardship. 5058. I suppose that you have heard the suggestions which have been made with regard to utilizing the water by irrigation ?—I have. 5059. Have you any means for doing that upon your own premises 2–We have not. 5060. Do you think that there would be any con- veniences near to you so as to render it practicable * —I think that in our case it would be a very difficult matter. 5061. You would rather be shown some other mode of getting rid of the refuse water —Much rather. 5062. If not more costly —Quite so. 5063. Is water power increasing in value in your district 2–I should say that as the price of coals in- creases the price of water power must also increase. 5064. Is the price of coal increasing –It is. 5065. About what do you pay now —I think with Mr. Brooke, about 7s. on the average. 5066. In your opinion, will not this new branch railway bring your coal at a lower rate –It will not; there will be no station nearer to our own manufactory than we have now. 5067. The line does not go through a coal-field – No. 5068. In the event of any legislation being contem- plated for compelling purification of rivers what is your feeling as to what the area should be of such legislation. Should the legislation be for an area like this or for the whole of Yorkshire, or for the empire generally —I think that it should be extended over the whole country, both England and Scotland. 5069. You think that if any restrictive measures are put upon trade they should be as general as the trade throughout the kingdom –Yes, on account of the competition which there is between the different districts. 5070. With your knowledge of Yorkshire and of the great growth of trade in Yorkshire, what is your opinion as regards the effects upon trade of the pol- lution which now exists. Do you think that it is bene- ficial or injurious?—Certainly ; the pollution of rivers I cannot say is beneficial, but I do not think that in many cases it is as prejudicial as is thought or as would at first sight appear, because most manufacturers have a supply of pure clean water which they first use and then turn in its polluted state into the river; very few manufacturers are dependent upon river Water. 5071. They have to find some other means of getting water 2–Yes. 5072. But we have had evidence over and over again of cases where the manufacturer is dependent upon the river water –In some instances, certainly, that is the case, and there river pollution must be prejudicial. - 5073. Is it within your own knowledge, or have you heard of any of the finer portions of the Yorkshire trade being driven away on account of the difficulty of producing fine colours ?—No; I do not know that any trade has been driven away. 5074. I do not mean the whole, but any portion of such trade 2–No ; I should not say that any portion has been driven away. At the same time, perhaps, we should in fairness confess that the Scotch produce better colours than we do in this district. 5075. And they get better prices —They get better prices, but then they belong to a different class of trade. While upon the question of competition, I would venture to suggest that any process which we were required to adopt should not be too costly because of the competition which we have with other countries. That competition is very close, and if we English manufacturers were at an extra expense in producing the various goods, we should feel the consequences in the market. 5076. You have had a copy of this Commission ?— I have. 17159.-2, 5077. Have you looked carefully at the wording of it?—I have, but it is some time ago; I do not exactly remember it. I do not undervalue the necessity of cleansing these rivers. My remark was that we are not all dependent upon them. 5078. (Professor Way.) Not in an equal degree ?— Not in an equal degree. I would not undervalue the importance of cleansing these rivers, and anything that we could do, I think, ought to be done by all manufacturers. 5079. (Chairman.) You are speaking from a manu- facturer's point of view —I am. 5080. Are you aware that polluted rivers flow down from manufacturing districts into purely agricultural districts, and into ornamental grounds used for resi- dential purposes, and that the pollution seriously injures such property, and, in some instances, actually prevents the use of the water for agricultural purposes —for watering cattle, or any purposes of that kind 2– I have heard that. 5081. And that you also poison the water which has heretofore been supplied for drinking purposes in towns, such large towns as Leeds and Wakefield, and several other of the Yorkshire towns —I have heard that. 5082. Do you think that it would be right and proper in the Government, whose duty it is to look after the interests of the whole community, to protect if practicable the sufferers from that form of pollution ? —I quite think so. 5083. If you will look at the first clause of our Commission, you will see that it says, “We have “deemed it expedient for divers good causes and “considerations that a Commission should forthwith “issue for the purpose of inquiring how far the “present use of rivers or running waters in England for “ the purpose of carrying off the sewage of towns and “ populous places, and the refuse arising from indus- “ trial processes and manufactures can be prevented “without risk to the public health and serious injury “to such processes, and manufacturers.” It says “serious injury,” that means, I imagine, injury which would be ruinous –I am quite sure that not only the Commission but the way in which it has been carried out is most satisfactory to all the manu- facturers; they have the utmost desire to do what can be done for the cleansing of these rivers. 5084. (Professor Way.) Besides that, I suppose that a clear river is a source of enjoyment to thousands of people?—Undoubtedly. I fear that the remark which I made rather left the impression that in my opinion river purification is a matter of very little moment. I am far from having that notion. What I intended to convey was that many of us manufacturers have an independent supply of pure water which we use and then turn into the river, and that we should not, even if the river was cleansed, always be dependent upon the river water. 5085. (Mr. Harrison.) But you are a great advo- cate for all being put upon the same footing 2–0uite SO. 5086. At present manufacturers in upper parts of the stream who have such an independent supply, if they send foul water into the river down to manufac- turers below who have not such an independent supply, are doing what they can towards not putting those manufacturers below upon the same footing 2– Probably those below may also have their independent supply of water. 5087. But many of them have not ?—If they have not they have other compensations, they have not so far to cart their wool, their coal, and their manufac- tured goods as those in distant valleys. 5088. (Chairman.) With regard to any form of authority that may be instituted to prevent riverpol- lution, do you think that you can see your way to any board which shall work for the benefit of the district? —If compulsory measures are to be taken, it appears to me that there should be an Act of Parliament binding upon all, and in order to carry out the pro- U HUDDERS- FIELD. J. Wrigley. Esq., jun. 27 Oct. 1866. - 154 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. J. Wrigley, Esg., jun. 27 Oct. 1866. visions of that Act it would probably be necessary to have some local board of conservancy. 5089. You think that the board should be elected by the persons who would be subject to its operations ° —Quite so. 5090. Just as in municipal matters the ratepayers who are to be subject to the governing body have the power of electing that body ?–Quite so. 5091. And you think that there should be a constant appeal to the electors by the retirement annually of a certain portion of the board, and a re-election ?—I should suggest some scheme of that kind. 5092. So that if the persons elected neglected to do their duty, you would have the power of choosing others at intervals stipulated by the Act 2–0uite so, that is what I should suggest. 5093. Have you any further remarks to make?— The board might appoint an inspector to carry out the provisions of the Act. 5094. That would be a matter of detail?—Quite so. 5095. (Professor Way.) The Chairman asked you whether in any legislative measure against river pol- lution you would think it necessary to deal with the whole country, or whether the operation of the Act might be confined to a district, such as that of York- shire, or as the basin of the rivers Calder and Aire, upon which we are engaged at this time. Would there be any serious objection by the manufacturers of this district if the district were dealt with alone without reference to the rest of the kingdom * 50954. (Chairman.) On the understanding that Par- liament should carry the process forward as time admitted 2 – Making a sort of experiment of this district. 5096. For instance, last session Parliament passed an Act which appoints Conservators over the main valley of the Thames. There are clauses in that Act which are exceptional so far as the valley of the Thames goes. The towns in the valley of the Thames are in a certain time to be prevented from putting any sewage into the waters of the Thames. There is no similar restriction in Yorkshire or in other parts of England 2–1 speak with some diffidence upon the matter, but it strikes me that the manufac- turers in this district would like all the manufacturing interests throughout the country to be treated in the same way and at the same time. I think that they would not take so cordially to any scheme or urge it on so much unless all manufacturing interests in the country were dealt with in the same way. 5097. (Professor Way.) You quite allow that at the present moment manufacturers of this district, as a whole, are at a disadvantage as compared, for instance, with Scotland with its pure water –I do not think that if you cleansed the rivers it would make any difference, because our fancy colours may be dyed in dye-houses where they have just as pure water as the rivers would furnish if they were cleansed. 5098. I understood you to say just now that you did not produce equally good colours with the Scotch? —Just so, but I do not attribute that to the pollution of our river water. 5099. (Chairman.) And if the rivers are to be cleansed it must be from other motives than merely to give you an advantage in competition ?—I should say so. I do not under-estimate the actual advantage which it would be to manufacturers, but I do not think that it would work a revolution in the trade. 5100. (Professor Way.) But we, I think, have had many instances where the water used by manu- facturers was nothing but river water 2–There are various cases of mills in the neighbourhood of towns where river purification would be of great importance. They would find the benefit of a cleansed river. 5101. Such places as Dewsbury, for instance 2– Yes. 5102. If the expense of rendering a whole stream more or less pure was not great, would not the manu- facturers on that stream to that extent be put in a position of advantage, as compared with any district which did not purify the water —Yes. 5103 You may say “At Huddersfield we are “ already provided for, and we do not care that Dews- “ bury should have proper water; ” but, looking to the whole of Yorkshire, it might be an advantage more than commensurate with the expense to clear the water?—Quite so. I think that it would be in every way to the advantage of manufacturers to unite and to aid in cleansing the waters. 5104. In what way would you suffer if the whole district were dealt with ?—It might cost too much. 5105. It is a question of cost –Yes, I am treating the matter exclusively in that way. Of course, as to the pleasure of a pure river and its appearance there cannot be two opinions. 5106. (Chairman.) Is there anything further which you would wish to add –With reference to putting the solid matter into the river, that point may be ripe for legislation, but with reference to some com- pulsory method of cleansing dye water, I would venture to suggest that the time has hardly come for legislation. Supposing that science should devise some scheme for cleansing the dye waters, still it would be imprudent immediately to enforce its adoption. Before making its adoption compulsory I would allow time for it to become generally known and to be generally acknowledged to be feasible, in order that you might have the good will of those compelled to adopt it. 5107. (Professor Way.) One of the witnesses in this room stated that if purification of some kind were made compulsory methods would soon be found to accomplish it –In that I do not agree. 5108. You of course know that in any such act of the Legislature, time is given. In the case of the Thames the time allowed varies from one to three years ?—What I mean is, that supposing that science should devise some scheme, and that immediately or very shortly afterwards an Act of Parliament should be passed, enacting that in a certain time it should be compulsory upon every one, a great many people would then hear of it for the first time, and would hear that in such a time they would be bound to use it without knowing its working and its feasibility. 5109. (Chairman.) You would like example to prevail before you made the rule compulsory — Exactly so. 5110. (Mr. Harrison.) If Parliament made it com- pulsory on the part of manufacturers to keep these different sources of pollution out of the rivers, it would be necessary to appoint inspectors to examine the rivers and to report. Do you think that there is sufficient confidence in the magistrates of the county to let them be the board to appoint such inspectors and to have control of the rivers of the county — I apprehend that an Act of Parliament would state what might or might not be done. The board of management would be compelled to carry out the provisions of that Act ; their inspector would be an officer to carry out their orders, and to see that the provisions of the Act were complied with. Prosecu- tions under that Act might advantageously be made before the magistrates in petty sessions. 5111. Of course they would be so made under any circumstances, but do you think that the duty might with confidence be placed in the hands of the magis- trates of appointing inspectors and of exercising control over the rivers ?–Am I to understand you to suggest that the magistrates should be the local board of the district 2 5112. No: I mean that there should be no local board but that the magistrates should take their place. Any local board would have interests which would rather favour the pollution than otherwise.—I think that it is very essential to get the cordial assent and concurrence of all manufacturers in this matter, and I think that that would be best secured by allowing them to elect a board of conservancy rather than RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 155 vesting the conservancy in the magistracy of the county. 5113. (Chairman.) Have you anything further to add 2–I beg to hand in an analysis of the bore water. The witness withdrew, Mr. BENJAMIN SEED (Slaithwaite) examined. 5114. (Chairman.) What business do you carry on 2–I am an oil and grease extractor. 5115. Where do you carry on your operations?— At Huddersfield and Milnes Bridge and in the district. 5116. What weight of material do you extract per annum in the shape of oil and grease ?–Some of the places I have only taken lately. 5117. But you are carrying it on as a business?— Yes, I commenced here about three years ago, and I have been continually taking mills all the time. 5118. How many mills have you now —Twenty. 5119. What weight of oil and grease per week do you make –Perhaps four or five tons. I cannot say exactly. 5120. What is it worth ; 18l. or 201. a ton 2–Yes. 5121. When the water comes away from the vats in which you extract the oil and grease, is this about the colour of it (showing a sample to the witness) – Yes. 5122. And is there nothing in it which can be taken out with profit —Not that I am aware of. 5123. You have not tried ?–No. 5124. Are there many mills in the district which turn their wash water into the rivers without utiliza- tion ?—Not so many now as there were ; if there are any they are small ones which are not worth taking UID. 5125. Have you tried the process of extracting indigo from the cake of grease ?–No, but I know that it is done. 5126. Have you ever thought of trying it 2–We have nothing in this neighbourhood which is worth while. I have had it tested. 5127. There is not sufficient indigo used ?–No. 5128. Do you extract the grease from Mr. Crow- ther's soapsuds at Lockwood 2–No. 5129. Who does that ?–A person of the name of Sugden. 5130. Are there any other of the waste products which, in your opinion, may be turned to account 2– I have only tried this one. 5131. Are you working under a patent or has the patent run out?—There is no patent for it. 5132. Any person is at liberty to use it —Messrs. Teall have a patent. 5133. But your process is different from Messrs. Teall’s 2-—Yes. 5134. In what does it differ?—They use steam. 5135. You cannot get so much extract by your cold process?—No. 5136. Then you would get more of the oil and grease if you could use steam 2–Yes. 5137. What further proportion would you get by the use of steam ; a third or a fourth more?—Perhaps about a third. 5138. Would it not pay you to obtain a royalty from Messrs. Teall to allow you to use steam –We should have to arrange at each place for the manufac- turer to supply steam, and the manufacturers do not like it. 5139. They do not like to be robbed of that amount of steam 2–No, and therefore I have adopted the cold process. 5140. (Professor Way.) The matter which you extract does not separate so well, I suppose, by the cold process as it does by heat?—It does not, and it is a much quicker process by steam. 5141. (Chairman.) You do not know what propor- tion of oil and grease remains in this water (showing a sample to the witness) —No. 5142. You know what proportion you get out of the liquid which you treat —Yes, I know it pretty nearly ; it varies according to the mill. 5143. If you had 1,000 gallons of wash water, how much sulphuric acid would you put to it?–It depends a good deal upon the parties who are scouring ; some persons put as much material again in scouring as others, and then more acid would be required. 5144. In the strongest wash water what amount of acid would you use?—Perhaps 18lbs. to 1,000 gallons. 5145. That would be to 10,000 lbs. P-Yes. 5146. How much does the acid cost you a ton – From 4l. to 5l. 5147. (Professor Way.) That it really amounts to about 2 lbs. in a thousand 2–Yes, as nearly as I can tell; it will vary. 5148. If anyone suggested to you a method by which the cold process would separate more quickly, and at the same time give a clearer liquid you would be very glad to adopt it?–Yes. 5149. Have you ever used anything besides sul- phuric acid –I have used a little alum. 5150. You must use that with an alkali and not with an acid –Yes. Sometimes we try muriatic acid. 5151. However, if anything could be suggested so as to send this liquid in a clearer state into the river, and at the same time to increase your own product, you would be very glad to use it –Yes. The witness withdrew. Mr. CHARLEs KERSHAw HARE (Huddersfield) examined. 5152. (Chairman.) You are manager of the Hud- dersfield Waterworks?—Yes. - 5153. Have they been formed under a private Act 2 —Yes, under two Acts of Parliament. 5154. Where are your works situated 2–At Long- wood, about three miles from Huddersfield. 5155. What district do you supply —The township of Huddersfield, and some parts out of the township. 5156. The works have been formed by a board of commissioners ?—Yes. 5157. How did they raise the money –On mort- gage of the water rates. - 5158. What amount of storage have you ?— 60,000,000 gallons. 5159. In your storage reservoir 2–Yes. 5160. And then you have a compensation reser- voir 2–Yes, of about 45,000,000 gallons. 516.1. And that compensation reservoir is worked exclusively for the millowners ?–Yes. 5162. Not for supply purposes?–No. 5163. What is the area of your gathering ground 2 —The whole area is about 1,000 acres; that is for the whole of the reservoirs; for the compensation reservoirs and our own. 5164. It is not more than 1,000 acres?–No. 5165. Do you know what volume a day you give out of your compensation reservoirs ?– The mill- owners use the water as they like ; we have a gathering ground of about 500 acres. 5166. What volume a day can you afford to send out of your supply reservoir 2–400,000 gallons, ex- cepting in a very extreme drought. 5167. Last year how did you get on ?–Last year it would be about 250,000 gallons per day, taking the average of the whole year. 5.168. Did your reservoir run dry last year or the year before ?–Not last year, but the year before it did. 5169. It literally ran out 2–Yes. 5170. Have you had any scheme for supplementing the supply?—Yes; not in that district but in the Meltham district. HUDDERS- FIELD. J. Wrigley, Esq., jun. 27 Oct. 1866. Mr. B. Seed. Mr. C. K. Hare. - U 2 156 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 5171. Do you sell any of your water for trade pur- poses in Huddersfield –A small portion. We use one or two meters, but the quantity so sold is very small indeed. 5172. What do you get per 1,000 gallons?—The scale is 1s. where a party requires 100,000 gallons per quarter, and for lesser quantities the maximum is 1s. 6d. 5173. What is your rate for domestic consumption ? —There is a scale of charge. 5174. Do you know what the rainfall is in Hud- dersfield —About 32 inches per annum on an average of 12 years. 5175. It is sometimes less and sometimes more. Do you know what is the lowest ?–24:39 inches is the lowest rainfall which we ever had. 5176. What has been the heaviest 2–43-83 inches. 5177. Then your minimum to your maximum is about as one to two —Yes. 5178. During the dry years, what supply could you give per day to Huddersfield —I will read to you the supply as it was delivered in 1865, which was the worst year for our supply. From January to Feb- ruary, 24 hours; March and April, 12 hours; May, 9 hours; June, 7 hours; July and August, 6 hours; from the 1st of September to the 19th of October, 5 hours. 5179. That was in the 24?–Yes. It then increased up to 24 hours for November and December. 5180. During those slack periods was there any portion of the district situated on the higher parts, which could not get a supply at all places —I believe that it has been stated that the reason of lack of supply was that a main at a very low part of the town had been laid of an insufficient bore, and that the lead pipe had got entirely stopped up ; the stoppage was not general but only just a local occurrence which we could not help. All the rest of the town had the water according to these hours. 5181. (Mr. Harrison.) To what source were the poor obliged to have recourse during the stoppage of the water ?–Our neighbours had a very short distance to go for it, and of course they fetched it from there. 5182. What is that book from which you are quoting 2–It is the evidence given before the House of Commons and the House of Lords. 5183. Can we have a copy of it —You can have this book; I brought it on purpose. 5184. It contains the principal evidence which you could bring to bear before the House of Commons — Yes; it contains Mr. Hawksley's evidence, and the whole of the evidence upon the late Bill, both as regards our present works and our intended works. 5185-6. That would give us a thorough insight into every question connected with the water supply of Huddersfield –Yes, everything. 5187. (Chairman.) Are you going on with that Bill in the next Session of Parliament 2–No. 5188. Was there much opposition on behalf of the millowners to your scheme of last session ?—I should say not. There was only the opposition which there generally is to all schemes which propose to take water from a millowner. 5189. If your works had been carried out do you think that you would have had a ready sale, for manu- facturing purposes, of the surplus water which you might have had? —Yes, there is no doubt about it. 5.190. Did you contemplate supplying intervening townships, such as Lockwood, and Newsome, and other districts —Yes, the whole line which our pipes came through, South Crosland, Netherton, and so on. 5191. Would your line of main have run in such a district as would have enabled you to give a supply to Mr. Thomas Brooke and Mr. Wrigley if they had wished it 2–Yes. 5192. Did they oppose you or assist you ?—I think that they were neutral. (Mr. Brooke.) We opposed, (Mr. Hare.) You mean you opposed together with the whole of the millowners, not personally (Mr. Brooke.) Just so. 5193. (Chairman to Mr. Hare.) Do you or do you not consider that it will be necessary to extend your works for the domestic supply of Huddersfield, apart from manufactures?—Yes, we really require it for Huddersfield. 5.194. The town is growing and your works are limited 2–Yes. 5.195. What do you call your reservoir 2–Royle's head reservoir; it is above Longwood. 5196. (Mr. Harrison.) It is to the left of the town of Huddersfield 2–Yes. 5197. (Professor Way.) In your opinion is the water of the same nature as that of the Holmfirth reservoir and the Standedge reservoir 2–Yes, it is off the same mountain district. 5.198. Does it attack lead 2–Not much ; there is a little coating at the first passing through, but that becomes quite hard and the water never affects it afterwards. 5199. Is it not soft water 2—Yes. 5200. Do you not know that it is said that soft water generally attacks lead – Yes, but we do not find it to be so. I do not think that it does so in all CaSOS. 5201. (Chairman.) Your commissioners are merely trustees, they are not a paid commissioners ?—They are not. 5202. They are acting simply as commissioners for the benefit of the town 2–Yes. 5203. And they are a separate body from the town commissioners ?—Yes. 5204. Has there been any talk of amalgamating the two bodies?--In some circles there has, but I do not think that it is general. I do not think that the inhabitants would like it to be so. I believe that the inhabitants are perfectly satisfied with the waterworks commissioners, and with their actions, and that they would not like the existing system to be disturbed. 5205. Are some members of the waterworks com- mission also members of the body of town commis- si ?—Yes, three, I think SIOiler’s es, three, IIlk. 5206. Therefore it might happen that the water commission might be exclusively composed of members of the town commission ?—Yes. 5207. Have you, from the want of storage, a large quantity of water running to waste yearly ? There IS SOme. 5208. Has it been given in evidence as something like 50,000,000 gallons a year?–20,000,000 gallons." 5209. 20,000,000 gallons, I suppose, would not go very far in Huddersfield 2–No. 5210. It would be about 40 weeks supply 2–Yes. 5211. Is there any convenience for making a reser- voir for storing those 20,000,000 gallons?—Yes, but Sir John Ramsden opposed it : he withdrew his opposi- tion when we withdrew the making of the reservoir to hold that water. Y 5212. Then you are tied up by these restrictions?— ſes. 5213. Has inconvenience arisen from the divided authority, the waterworks commissioners being one body and the improvement commissioners another 2– Only where neglect has occurred, and that might have occurred if both bodies had been together. 5214. Do you know that when streets have been repaired and put into proper order and new streets have been constructed by the improvement commis- sioners, they have shortly afterwards been taken up by the waterworks commissioners ?–Yes, that has been the case I know, from the neglect of the town surveyor for the time being, to give notice of the streets being about to be repaired. In all cases where that noticº has been given the water-pipes have been laid down previously to the streets being formed. HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. C. K. Hare. 27 Oct. 1866. The witness withdrew. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 157 Mr. URIAH TINKER (Holmfirth) examined. 5215. (Chairman.) You own certain beds of mine- rals —I do. 5216. They are situated in the upper branches of the New Mill Valley —Yes. 5217. Have the coals been worked out there or not * —No. There is one abandoned mine. 5218. Are you working coals there now 2–I am. 5219. Are you working them yourself or have you leased them —I am working part and have leased part. 5220. Have you occasion to pump any water, or does it come out at day-holes —We do not pump any. 5221. It comes out at day-holes –Yes. 5222. In working the minerals does ochrey water occasionally come out of those workings?—My work- ings do not discharge any ochrey water, for this reason: The water from the upper bed flows into the lower seam and mixes with the soft bed water, and consequently it is so diluted that it is not of an ochrey nature. 5223. What is the name of the soft seam of coal?— It is called the lower seam. The lower seam has soft water, and the upper seam has hard water. 5224. Did you tap any old workings full of ochrey water ?—Not in my time, but I understand that, in my brother's time, there was a deposit in the water. 5225. How long is that ago?–10 or 12 years ago. 5226. Is that the period which was complained of? —I should think that it would be. 5227. That is to say, when a very large amount of ochrey water was sent down the stream —I fancy that there have been two or three such cases, but I do not remember at what times. 5228. Have serious complaints been made to you during the last three or four years of your discharging ochrey water down the streann —None whatever. 5229. Do you think that to any extent you could prevent ochrey water coming out of the mines?—I do not see how it is possible to prevent it. However, as I have said, from our mines the water is not discharged ochrey, because it is mixed with the soft water, which is in a larger proportion ; and, in addition to that, a large proportion of rain water, in wet seasons, finds its way into the workings and dilutes it still further, so that it is comparatively soft when it is discharged at the surface. 5230. What weight of coal do you get per month? —I cannot say. 5231. A thousand tons a month —Yes, perhaps Imore. 5232. How long will those mines last –A great number of years I should say. 5233. Then the working will be continued until the mines are exhausted –-Exactly so. The prin- cipal supply in that locality of hard water, ochrey water, is from an abandoned mine—in fact, that is the source of the stream. The mine has been abandoned for some years. 5234. Do you think that it would be possible to wall up the day-holes and to work that water in the mines 2–Yes, it is quite possible, but the question is whether a greater evil would not be created by doing SO 5235. In what way ?—I should imagine that the water would find its way to the surface. I do not apprehend that there is much injury from simply the water, but the evil is from the sediment being dis- turbed ; the danger, therefore, is from stirring up the water. At the time to which you refer it was the disturbing of the deposit which caused the injury; it was not simply the water. 5236. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. E. Brooke, who said that if the air could be prevented from passing into the mine it would prevent the oxydation of the ochrey water and diminish to a great extent the amount of ochre brought out by the water –I did not hear his evidence; I was not present. 5237. He suggested that if the abandoned day- holes were blocked up effectually, so that air was pre- vented from finding its way into the old workings, and the water prevented from coming out at those points the mischief would be removed 2–It might be to a certain extent, but if that was done I have no doubt that there would be complaints on the part of the millowners, because the water to which I am alluding, and to which you are referring, forms so large a proportion of the stream for the mills, that any such scheme as that which you mention would diminish their water power. 5238. You think that they would rather have the water as it is for power than have it diminished in quantity so as to lessen the ochre 2–Exactly so. 5239. Do you not think that if the old day-holes were blocked up that water would find its way through fissures of the rock in a natural manner, without bringing the mass of ochre it brings now 2–The water might so filter itself and purify itself to a certain extent by running through other strata. 5240. It would purify itself more in that manner than if left to run through the open day-hole 2–Yes. 5241. (Professor Way.) You could not block back the water altogether and prevent its being worked 2– Not at all. 5242. (Chairman.) If this ochrey water gets into a shallow pond or tank, will it deposit ochre 2–No doubt. 5243. Have you ever seen that done 2–Yes, very frequently. 5244. Is the ochre which is so deposited of any value *—I was not aware that any attempt had been made to find a value for it, except that just before I came here Mr. Brooke informed me that he sold it— blocked up the openings and sold the deposit after a certain accumulation. 5245. If that deposit were dried, like so much clay, I suppose it would be taken away –It could be easily taken away. 5246. And smelted 2–1 suppose so. 5247. It is used in different parts of the world; it is used in Spain, and some of the finest iron is made of it 2–I was not aware of that. 5248. Do you know the manufacturers generally in this district —I know some of them. 5249. Are any of their works situated upon land of yours ?—I think not. 5250. Then you have no interest in them —I have not. 5251. And you have no wish to speak about them P —No. 5252. Have you any interest in fishing in any part of the stream —No, I think that there are not many fish ; there are a few at the top of one stream. 5253. (Mr. Harrison.) Would it be any great hard- ship if owners of coal at old workings were called upon to form tanks, so as to deposit the ochre, and to render the streams pure for manufacturers ?—I do not see that it would be any serious injury where they had convenience for making a reservoir so as to deposit the ochre ; but in all situations you could not accom- plish that. 5254. In some places they have put dams across the drift itself for collection of the ochre; would there be any difficulty in doing that 2–By doing so you would block up the level. Many of the colleries in our district are worked by means of a water level, and if you dam up the level which may come out in the main stream of course you have no opportunity of filtering the water so as to purify it. 5255. (Chairman.) Land is not of much value in the neighbourhood of the coal mines 2–Of course it is not; I should say that in most instances it might be accomplished. 5256. (Professor Way.) Is it not in the shale that this ochre comes 2–Yes, it is from the hard bed of coal and the shale. 5257. Is it from the oxydation of iron pyrites with HUDDERS- FIELD. - Mr. U. Tinker. 27 Oct. 1866. - U 3 158 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HUDDERS- FIELD. - Mr. U. Tinker. - 27 Oct. 1866. Mr. I. Robson. sulphate of iron in it; do you see little shining particles in it, shining sometimes like gold 3–Yes. 5258. That is the source of it 2–Yes. 5259. Therefore, if you could keep the air from it it is perfectly clear that you would prevent formation of ochrey water —Yes. The witness withdrew. (Mr. T. Brooke.) I said something about the Holme reservoir : since then I have obtained the rainfall from Mr. Bateman’s pamphlet, at Bilberry, and I see that the mean rainfall of five years was 51-3 inches, and at the Holme Styes 47-5 inches. Mr. Is AAC Robson (Mold Green) examined. 5260. (Chairman.) You are a dyer —Yes. 5261. Where are your works situated?—At Dalton and at Aspley. Aspley is just at the bottom of the town. Dalton is about a mile out, near the Wakefield Road. 5262. Are your works situated upon any stream or river ?–My works at Aspley are upon the river Colne, not strictly the river but on what is called the Cut which forms a stream to run through what are called the Shorefoot mills. 5263. What number of hands do you employ in these dyeworks —I think about 55 in both together. 5264. What material do you dye –Cotton yarn and woollen yarn chiefly. 5265. Where do you obtain the water for dyeing purposes?—For the cotton yarn we gather it our- selves; we have two reservoirs collected from the country round, and in addition to that we have a bore- hole. For the woollen yarn, we get water from the canal. 5266. In neither case are you dependent upon the river ?–Just so. 5267. Is it the broad or the narrow canal from which you obtain water —The narrow canal. 5268. Do you use coal upon your premises?—Yes. 5269. For what purposes; for steam power —For producing steam and steam power. 5270. What do you do with the ashes —They are generally carried on to the road ; there is a consider- able demand for ashes for repairing roads and things of that sort. 5271. Do you put any of them into the river ?— No. 5272, Do you use soap and oil for washing and scouring 2–Yes, for scouring. 5273. What becomes of the refuse water from the soap 2–It goes away with the dye water. 5274. Into the stream?—Yes. 5275, What colour is it; is it the colour of the water in any of these bottles?—It is various, according to the material scoured ; sometimes it is nearly black. 5276. Is there not sufficient soap or oil in your refuse water to make it worth while to take it out?— We have tried the experiment ourselves and we have not found it answer; we have not found it pay the expense and trouble ; it might be from the want of proper apparatus, but we had not convenience for it. 5277. In the experiment did you purify the water to any extent —No, it was merely run into a tank and allowed to settle, and then the effluent water was allowed to pass away, and we used the sediment for Inanure. 5278. Did you use anything to precipitate the grease; any acid –No. 5279. Do you know that in precipitating the grease in the case of this sample (referring to a sample previously produced) an acid is used ?–Yes. 5280. And that this water was highly charged before it was treated —Yes, I daresay that it might be possible. 5281. Was the sediment which you obtained from your tank beneficial for manure—Yes, I think that it was decidedly beneficial. 5282. Did you ever try the dye water, untreated, for the purpose of irrigation ?–We never tried it our- selves. I have seen it tried. 5283. With what effect?—It had a very bad effect on grassland. 5284. It killed the grass?—Yes. 5285. Do you think that it was too strong 2—I am unable to say, because it was on a very small scale. and it was tried not by way of experiment but accidentally. 5286. Accidentally by the bursting or overflowing of a dye vat on to grass land 2–Yes. We have been in fact complained of for killing the grass, 5287. If you put urine on to grass I have no doubt that it would do the same 2—I have no doubt of it. 5288. Do you use urine in dyeing —Yes. 5289. Do you use pigs’ dung?—No, that belongs to cloth manufacture. 5290. Do you use any dyewoods –Yes. 5291. What do you do with the chips ?—We burn almost the whole of them. 5292. Is any compulsion used to make you burn them —No ; it is our easiest way of getting rid of them. - 5293. Could you throw them into the river if you liked 2–It would be expensive, because we are situated on a hill 150 or 200 feet above the river, and the distance is considerable ; we are about a mile from the river, and therefore it would be expensive to send them down to the river. 5294. How many gallons of water a day do you use in the dyeing and scouring processes?—It is very difficult to say exactly. At Dalton I think that we use something like from 24,000 to 30,000 gallons a day ; it depends upon the amount of work which we have. At Aspley, where the water is rather more abundant, we probably use more. - 5295. Could you carry on your processes by the river water alone *-No. 5296. If you had not these private sources of water supply you could not carry on your trade?—No. 5297. How long have you carried on business there —Fourteen or 15 years. 5298. Do you remember the river ever to have been in such a condition that it would have enabled you to dye with the water –Immediately after a heavy flood and during wet weather I have no doubt that it would have answered the purpose. - 5299. Do you know the weight of wool which you dye or treat –It varies exceedingly, because we do not dye for ourselves; we dye for hire, for the trade. 5300. Do you know the general condition of the rivers of Yorkshire as regards pollution ?—I know that in these manufacturing districts they are very much polluted. 5301. Do you think that that pollution tends to injure the manufacturing trade –I suppose that it does. If the rivers could be kept pure, so that they could be used by the manufacturers, of course it would be a great benefit to the manufacturers. 5302. Have you any further remarks to make?—In looking at this matter it always appears to me to be beset with great difficulty. It seems that the very first thing which must be done is to find some means of utilizing the refuse or you must stop the manufac- tures. If the process used for that purpose is very expensive of course you place manufacturers here at a very great disadvantage as compared with those on the continent, that is to be borne in mind. I would also suggest that experiments tried on a small scale are no accurate test of carrying the matter out in practice. Very often experiments on a small scale appear very well, but when carried out into practice they cannot be done effectively or economically. 5303. Do you know that sometimes the experiment in the laboratory is far less advantageous than upon a RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 159 great scale —No doubt it is so sometimes, but I have seen a great many instances where the thing has ap- peared very nice in theory and very practicable when tried on a small scale, but when it has been attempted in practice, owing to the difficulty of securing the same nicety of detail on a large scale, it has been utterly impossible to carry it out. 5304. Do you not think that that has sometimes arisen from the excited imagination of the inventor who is desirous that a result should be attained, and he bends everything to attain it?—I have no doubt that that has some influence. 5305. Do you not think that the cool judgment of an independent person is more reliable than the judg- ment of a would-be inventor or speculator —I have no doubt of it, but I think that the judgment of a mere experimenter, a mere chemist for instance, who tries his process on a small scale, would be very unsafe as a guide until the same experiment had been tried on a large scale by manufacturers. 5306. (Mr. Harrison). If in the course of our inquiry we find cases where an experiment is made on a large scale and is successful, that would be a good ground for asking for its application generally * —Yes. 5307. (Professor Way.) Are theoretical chemists always devoid of common sense —I should be very sorry to say so. 5308. I will give a little illustration. If I find that by pouring this stuff on to this bit of filter paper the blue stuff separates very easily, am I not fairly entitled to say that it could be separated by ordinary filtration ?–It is possible to be done, but then comes the question of expense. 5309. Do not most of our practical processes come from theoretical chemists —Yes; we are very much indebted to them. 5310. Are not the aniline dyes the result of modern theoretical chemistry?—Yes. The great difficulty is to contend with acids, alkalis, and many soluble salts in varying proportions : so many of these are used in dyeing that it is extremely difficult to separate them so as to make the liquid useful afterwards. The witness withdrew. Mr. CHARLES MILLS (Mold Green) examined. 5311. (Chairman.) You are clerk to the local board of Mold Green 2–Yes. 5312. And secretary to the Chamber of Commerce? —Yes. I have drawn up a short report bearing upon the Mold Green district. I shall be glad to read it, and I shall be happy to answer any questions arising out of it. (The witness read the same.) REPORT. Mr. Charles Mills, solicitor, Huddersfield, says, I am clerk to the Mold Green Local Board, which appointment I have held for upwards of two years. The Local Govern- ment Act, 1848, was applied to the district of Mold Green by an order bearing date the 30th November 1858. The district comprises an area of about 585 acres. The popula- tion is about 5,000. The present rateable value of the dis- trict is 11,885l. 4s. 6d. The rateable value in October 1859 was 8,930ſ. 14s. 7d. At present there is no general system of sewerage in the district, but plans for that purpose are in course of prepara- tion. The Penny Dyke which runs through Mold Green receives the principal portion of the sewage. It is a stream which rises on the hills near Almondbury, and is perfectly pure at Penny Spring wood, which is within the district, at that point it is called the Penny Spring beck. A little lower down it is joined by another clear stream called the Benholmley stream, and a little lower down these streams are augmented by the water from Sykes' Clough stream which runs from Almondbury. These three streams form the Penny dyke. Some 300 yards below Penny Spring wood, the Penny Spring beck, and Benholmley spring, flow into a reservoir belonging to Messrs. John Day & Sons, and called the “Top Reservoir.” Above this reservoir however are the finishing works of Mr. John Marsden. The water used at these works is taken from the Benholmley stream, and after being used it is turned into a subsiding tank, the effluent water runs into a covered drain which joins the Penny dyke immediately below the Top reservoir, the sediment being used as a manure. The water, when turned into Mr. Marsden's tank, is impregnated with ammonia and soap. Mr. Marsden’s works are supplied by two pipes, one 4 inches, and the other 2 inches in diameter, and these run on an average about five hours each day. A short distance below the Top reservoir are the dye and bleaching works of Messrs. Shaw, who are supplied by water from the Sykes' clough stream. Messrs. Shaw have a reservoir in which they store up the water from Sykes' clough stream, and in which there are fish. After the water has been used by them it is turned into the Penny dyke. Immediately below Messrs. Shaw's works are the dyehouse and finishing mill of Messrs. John Day & Sons. The water used by them is derived from the Top reservoir, and after it has been used it is turned into the Penny dyke. The quantity of water used at Messrs. Day’s dyeworks is about 7,000 gallons per day. They do not turn any solids into the dyke. Below Messrs. Day’s are the finishing, spinning, and dyeworks of Mr. George Gelder who is supplied with water from Messrs. Tolson’s reservoir. The water so obtained is pumped by Messrs. Tolson, and after being used at Mr. Gelder’s works it is turned into the Penny dyke. The Penny dyke also receives the drainage from Messrs. Isaac Robson & Sons, and Messrs. Salkeld’s dyeworks, and also the sewage from about 370 houses. Messrs. Robson alone use for dyeing about 30,000 gallons per day. Alto- gether I estimate that about 50,000 gallons per day is turned into the Penny dyke from the mills and dyeworks at Mold Green and Dalton. The dyke runs into the river Colne at Bridge End, and is not covered in for about 150 yards. At this open part it is joined by the Hall beck, which is clear but not perfectly pure, as it receives the drainage from about 13 houses. During the summer months the smell arising from the dyke is very noxious. There is in addition to the Penny dyke a sewer called the Storth’s sewer into which about 120 houses are drained. This sewer also empties itself into the river Colne. There are also about 100 houses which drain into the river near King's Mill. There is also the Lees beck which runs from Kirkburton through Dalton, and empties itself into the river Colne opposite Mr. Edward Brooke's house in Leeds Road Huddersfield. This beck was some 30 years ago noted for trout. Now it is polluted by the refuse from the manufactories; amongst others, from those of Messrs, Tolson Brothers, and Messrs. Wild of Dalton. The sewage of about 80 houses also runs into this beck. There are about 70 houses on Kilner bank (within the Mold Green district) not drained at all. Privies and not waterclosets are in general use within the district. No doubt waterclosets will in many cases be substituted when a proper supply of water has been obtained. Mold Green does not possess any waterworks, the only means of supply being from wells and private pumps. The want of water is severely felt in the summer months. The Local Board contemplated obtaining a supply of water for the district from the three springs to which I have referred, and with this view gaugings were taken for one year from February 1865 to 1866, from which it appeared that during the months of February, March, April, and May 1865, the average flow of water per minute was as follows: Benholme spring 29% gallons. Penny spring - 33% , Sykes' clough - 18.1% -> During these months, therefore, the average quantity of water per day was 118,080 gallons. The gaugings for the other months have not yet been reduced into gallons. The water from the springs was analysed in 1857, by Mr. Lindsey Blyth, of the General Board of Health, who repor- ted that the total dissolved impurities in a gallon of it was nine grains; that there were 8' 5 grains of saline matter, and 0.5 grains of organic matter; and that there was scarcely a trace of suspended impurity in it. The saline matter consisted of sulphate of lime and chloride of sodium. Mr. Blyth reported that the water was “wholesome and fit for domestic use,” and, indeed, by far the best of the sam- ples which had been taken from the pumps and springs in the district and submitted to him for analysis. The scheme was not proceeded with in consequence of the introduction by the Huddersfield Waterworks Commission- ers of a Bill in the last Session of Parliament for supplying Mold Green and other outlying districts with water, which HUDDERs. FIELD. Mr. M. Robson. - 27 Oct. 1866. Mr. C. Mills. U 4 160 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Bill the Local Board approved, but it was thrown out by the Committee of the House. One of the greatest nuisances within the district is the manure depôt belonging to the Huddersfield improvement Commissioners, Mr. Joseph Thornton, the inspector of nuisances, stated in his evidence before this Commission, that this depôt was not complained of as a nuisance, but only as an eyesore. This, however, is not correct. The Local Board and inhabitants of Mold Green regard it as a very great nuisance, and are unanimous in thinking that it is improper that a depôt for the reception of the night soil from a large town like Huddersfield should be placed so near to a densely populated district like Mold Green. [Un- fortunately, however, the depôt was established previously to the adoption of the Local Government Act, and, the Board are, therefore, powerless to compel its removalso long as the Commissioners use the best practical means for abating the nuisance, or preventing, or counteracting the noxious effluvia arising from it...] Mr. Read Holliday suggests to you that the sludge from the river should be analysed for the purpose of ascertaining what gases emanate from it. As the shallowest part of the river is near to Mold Green the district must be especially affected by such gases, and the Board would, therefore, no doubt be glad that Mr. Holliday's suggestion should be followed. The district is supplied with gas, the money expended on the lamps and mains having been borrowed by the Board. With this ex- ception no public works have been executed by the Board, but upwards of 1,500l. have been spent by it in levelling, paving, and sewering (at the expense of the owners of the adjoining property) highways not repairable by the public. There being no separate census for the Mold Green dis- trict only an approximate estimate can be made of the number of its inhabitants, and the rate of mortality cannot, of course, be correctly ascertained. , it is, however, as near as I have been able to ascertain, at the rate of 20 per 1,000. 5313. Have you noticed in the Lancashire papers that a petition was sent up a short time ago from certain inhabitants in a portion of Liverpool protesting against the large deposit of manure at a certain point in the borough of Liverpool, and that an inquiry took place by order of the Secretary of State —No. If you tell me that such an application from Liverpool has been successful, I am sure that it will be a very good hint to the Mold Green Local Board. 5314. It has been successful, and therefore if you cannot deal with this manure heap by ordinary means, I think that by such a petition you can obtain an inquiry, and some action in the matter —I am very glad of such a suggestion, because on account of the clauses in the Local Government Act, the board have not found themselves equal to deal with the question. I am informed that near that manure there have been a very great number of fever cases, and the inhabi- tants of course attribute them to the manure heaps. 5315. Then, as far as Mold Green is concerned, may we take it that the board would be willing to do its best to prevent river pollution ?—I think that they would. 5316. If you are going to adopt waterclosets, might not that tend to pollution if the sewage is not to be utilized —Of course that would depend upon the character of the sewerage works; at present the sewage passes into the river. 5317. You have heard the evidence given before this Commission ?–Yes. 5318. Do you think it at all probable that pollution by sewage will be allowed to be continued?—I think it desirable that it should be put a stop to if it can be done at a reasonable cost to manufacturers. The witness withdrew. Mr. THOMAS WILLIAM CLough (Huddersfield) examined. 5319. (Chairman.) You are a solicitor —I am. 5320. And for many years you acted as clerk to the Huddersfield commissioners ?—For 17 years after the Commission was first established. 5321. You have resigned that appointment, and now are a member of the commission?—I am. 5322. You have, I believe, during the period of your connexion with Huddersfield paid considerable attention to sanitary matters as connected with the town 2–I have. 5323. And, I suppose, have been acquainted with the district for many years —I have known the dis- trict and have resided in it for nearly 26 years. 5324. In what condition do you find the streams and rivers of this district —I find them very bad indeed. I remember when I was a schoolboy paying a visit to Huddersfield, and one of my pleasures was to fish in the river. 5325. Did you catch anything?—I did not ; at that time I was too young, but I think that you may catch fish now in the canal if you think proper. 5326. What was the condition of Huddersfield when you first knew it with regard to its sanitary arrange- ments – There was no system of sewerage at all ; there was only a superficial drainage, such as would be accomplished under the Highway Act. 5327. And the refuse went into the adjoining stream 2–It did. 5328. What was was the condition of the lower class tenements and common lodging-houses —The common lodging-houses at that time were in a very fearful state. I went once or twice with the captain of the watch under the old Lighting and Watching Act, and I found the lodging-houses crowded to excess, with no means of separating the sexes, and filthy and dirty in the extreme. 5329. Do you think that the other members of society knew in what state the lower stratum of society in England existed –I believe that very few indeed could form any conception of it, unless they had taken the pains to visit and to see it for themselves. 5330. As you did —As I did. 5331. Did you make midnight inspections : — I did. 5332. What was the result of those inspections –- They left a deep impression on my own mind that some effort should be made to improve the moral and sanitary condition of the town. 5833. And it resulted in some practical measures being adopted –It resulted in applying for the Hud- dersfield Improvement Act. 5334. In that Improvement Act what clauses did you get with regard to that special evil –We had power to register the lodging-houses, and to inspect them, and to see better order and cleanliness observed ; but, notwithstanding the powers which we had in the Special Act of Parliament, we found ourselves utterly unable to deal with the question or to remedy the evil which we saw, until we got a model lodging-house of Oul' OWI). 5335. Where is the model lodging-house ?—The model lodging-house is nearly at the top of Chapel Hill. 5336. Have you any statistics as to the management and cost of that model lodging-house –I have. The total cost of the lodging-house at the commencement was 5,0941. 13s. 1d. 5337. How did you raise that money –It was raised by loans; two loans were taken up, one of 3,600l. and another of 1,546/. 5338. At what per-centage – Five per cent. 5339. And there was a redemption fund 2–Yes; we entered into a negotiation with the Atlas Assu- rance Company, and the conditions were that we should repay one-thirtieth part annually, and we have done so down to the present time, together with the interest upon the amount of principal for the time being remaining owing. 5340. What is the annual cost of the management of that establishment 2–I have not separated all the detail of the cost, but I have a statement of the amount which is taken out of the town's rates for the purpose of maintaining the lodging-house. 5341. For supplementing the receipts?—Yes. 5342. There is an income from the lodgers ?–A considerable income ; I have a statement of that income year by year, which I will afterwards hand in. From November the 6th 1854, when the lodging- RIVERS COMMISSION:–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 161 house was opened, to the 30th of April 1855, the income was 831. 3s. 7d., and in the following year it was 296/. 3s. 0d. In the year ending April 1857 it was 299/. 18s. 4d. ; in the year ending April 1858 it was 358/. 6s. 1d. ; in the year ending April 1859 it was 3321. 10s. 9d.; in the year ending April 1860 it was 4191. 1s. 1d. ; in the year ending April 1861 it was 539ſ. 12s. 5d. ; in the year ending April 1862 it was 520/. 3s. 1d. ; in the year ending April 1863 it was 544/. 3s. 10d. ; in the year ending April 1864 it was 558/. 1s. 7d. ; in the year ending April 1865 it was 496/. 9s. 10d., and in the year ending April 1866 it was 518l. 2s. 8d., making a total of 4,965l. 16s. 8d. 5343. (Mr. Harrison.) What was the occasion of the larger amounts during the latter years —The lodging-house had got approved. What I have given are the receipts from lodgers. 5344. What were your expenses —The pay- ments in wages during the same time amount to 1,907l. 11s. 3d. The net income is 3,058l. 5s. 5345. (Professor Way.) That is not including rent or interest for outlay of capital —No, but I have the interest on the outlay in a separate form. I find that from 1855 to 1860 there was paid for interest 1,436l. 6s. 11d., and in the next period, from 1861 to 1866, 1,010l. 16s. 5d., making the total amount paid for interest 2,447/. 3s. 4d. But in estimating what the establishment has been doing we ought not to place upon the establishment the full amount of interest here charged, because we are paying now for the purpose of liberating or reducing the interest at a future period; and in order to do the institution full justice I have considered that the capital which we have borrowed is to be repaid by annual instalments, and I have taken the interest upon the full sum borrowed for the meantime—that is to say, for 15 years. I then take the total of the interest which will be paid during all the 30 years. I then reckon that the estab- lishment has been open 12 years, so that the estab- lishment ought only to bear six-fifteenths of the full interest for the 30 years. 5346. (Mr. Harrison.) Charging the establishment with that sum, and the expenses which you are at, are the receipts from the lodgers sufficient at present to clear outgoings —They very nearly clear them : they would clear them except for incidental expenses which are continually arising. 5347. So that in a few years Huddersfield will have the advantage of this establishment without any cost at all to the town P-It will. I have made a calculation separately for the period from 1860 to 1866. I find that the total amount drawn out of the improvement rates during those years was 1,520/., and during the same period there was paid in wages 1,907. 11s. 3d., the total of the payments being 3,427/. 11s. 3d. The income from lodgers during the same time was 3,1761. 13s.5d., and the interest which we paid in excess was 471/.4s. 10d., which would make 3,647. 18s. 3d. ; and taking off the 3,427 l. 11s. 3d., it shows the net profits for the six years at 220ſ. 7s. 0d. But this is supposing there has been no outlay for improve- ments; it is, however, my opinion that the establish- ment will in a very short time be a profit rather than otherwise to the town of Huddersfield. 5348. How many persons can you accommodate 2– In the Mechanics’ Home 43 single men, at 4%d, each per might. 5349. You charge 3d. to some do you not ?–In the male department for single men there is accommodation for 80 at 3d. 5350. And for how many women —For 11, at 3d. 5351. For how many married persons is there accommodation ?—For 12 married couples, at 6d. 5352. How many people have you had in the house of late 2–I cannot give the numbers; they are repre- sented in the income derived, which I have already supplied. 5353. (Chairman.) Looking at what Huddersfield was when you first knew it, and looking at the results to be attained by the establishment of this lodging- house, do you think that members of Parliament would be justified in asking of Parliament to allow the Chancellor of the Exchequer to advance money for the extension of that principle at the lowest rate of interest compatible with security to the State 2–I think that it would be attended with great national benefit. 5354. You are aware that 1,850,000l. has been advanced to Lancashire at the low rate of 3% per cent. *—Yes. 5355. If you had received your money at 3% per cent. what advantages would it have given to you ?— The establishment would have been a great success much earlier than it has been, and it would have led to the more general adoption of that system throughout the country. 5356. In its adoption do you think that you have tended to lessen the poor rates ? — Considerably. We had evidence called before the surveying officers when the Improvement Act was passed, which showed that there had been paid out of rates for the town of Huddersfield nearly 500l. in one year for the relief of the sick poor in those over-crowded, ill-ventilated common lodging-houses. 5357. Do you think that it has lessened crime — Considerably. 5358. Therefore it will lessen the police rates, and the rate for criminal prosecutions —Certainly. There is a very good thing in connexion with the Labouring Classes Model Lodging House Act, and other Acts. The police can obtain a return of the character of the persons who frequent the lodging- houses, and in the vagrant office we have the advantage of one of the inspectors of police being at the head of that establishment. 5359. Do you give the inmates any facilities for cooking —There is a good cooking apparatus and there is always hot water so that anyone may come in and cook anything in a moderate way, in a reason- able time; anything to be fried or anything of that SOrt. 5360. Can they buy coffee or tea at a cheap rate from a person in the house –They used to do so. I do not know whether that is carried on at present or not. 5361. However, you are perfectly satisfied, from your own experience, that such establishments may be carried on with great advantage to the communities in which they are situated —I think they may be carried on with very great advantage indeed. 5362. And with great advantage to the individuals who use them —Particularly to them. I think that the pecuniary part of the question is but a trifling matter. I think that you need not be anything out of pocket by lending money out of the national funds at a low rate of interest, while the advantages morally and socially, as well in the prevention of crime as for sanitary purposes, will be very great indeed. 5363. (Mr. Harrison.) Besides the provision for cooking, you have, I believe, some baths in which the people may wash —Yes, there are baths, I believe, for both sides of the establishment, and lavatories. 5364. Are those baths supplied with hot and cold water —Yes. 5365. Is the cost of the bath included in the 3d. or the 4}d?—It is. 5366. If any of the people appear especially dirty, do you require them to take a bath —If they are very bad the inspector will not admit them, except on the condition of taking a bath. 5367. There are lavatories as well ?—Yes, with a constant supply of water. 5368. With towels and soap supplied for them — Yes. 5369. And waterclosets?—Yes. 5370. Which are kept in good order?—They are. 5371. In the mechanics department have you a sitting-room —A large sitting-room. 5372. And a library attached —Yes. 5373. Can the men have the books out 2–On applying to the superintendent they can have any book. X 17159.-2, HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. T. W. Clough. 27 Oct. 1866. 162 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCF. f{UDDERS- FIELD. Mr. T. W. Clough. -- 27 Oct. 1866. Mr. W. Mellor. Mr. T. W. Clough. 5374. Without payment?—Without payment. I think it right to say that many charitable individuals are kind enough to send periodicals and papers. 5375. (Mr. Harrison.) Is there not a certain area put apart for each individual in the sleeping apart- ments —There is. 5376. What space is that?—The length of the day rooms both for the mechanics and for the male depart- ment is 25 yards 2 feet 3inches; the height is 11 feet 7 inches. The width of the bed space is 4 feet 7 inches, the height of the partition is 6 feet 6 inches, and there are 30 beds in each floor. 5377. Each of these compartments is supplied with a bed and a wash-hand basin –Yes; with a constant supply of water. 5378. What kind of people have you occasionally applying to you for a night's lodging?—Very often people will apply there who are too poor to pay the charge, and they are obliged to go to the vagrant office. Sometimes men of intemperate habits in a state of insobriety, not fit to be admitted, are obliged to be refused. 5379. That is one limit, let us know the other; what is the highest class of people whom you have occasionally applying for a night's lodging —I have known professional men live and sleep there for weeks together. 5380. (Chairman.) Doctors ?–Solicitors, I think, chiefly. I have known more than one. 5381. You wished a question to be put to the clerk of the waterworks company ?–I wished to suggest through my question that it would be much better if the water supply was in the hands of the improvement commissioners, who have charge of the sanitary condition of the district. 5382. In your opinion the two boards should be amalgamated 2–I think so. 5383. And you would have one set of commis- sioners?—I certainly think that it would be advisable. I should be glad to see many of the waterworks commissioners at the improvement board. It is not from any personal feeling that I make the suggestion. 5384. But it is merely on the ground of economy as regards the management —Yes. 5385. Have you anything further to add 2–In connexion with the institution, I think it right to mention that, so far as my knowledge extends, this is the only instance throughout England where the in- habitants have availed themselves of the provisions of the Labouring Classes Lodging-House Act, by establishing a lodging-house at the cost of the town- ship. 5386. Other districts, if they are wise, will follow your example?—I think that it is very advantageous. If it is left to individual charity I think that it will only be partially adopted. The witness withdrew, Mr. Wright MELLoR (Huddersfield) further examined. 5387. (Chairman.) In your examination-in-chief, you spoke as to the proper future local govern- ment for prevention of pollution of rivers ?—I may perhaps have expressed myself not very clearly, but my notion was simply this, that if you have a govern- ing body it ought to be a governing body elected from the district. 5388. An elected body ?—An elected body. I should strongly object to the magistrates being the governing body in a case like that ; and I think that you should have in addition an inspector appointed, say by the Government, such as is appointed under the Poor Law or Factory Act. 5389. Or that the appointment should be at least sanctioned by Government?—Yes. 5390. And the officer should be irremoveable, excepting for some misconduct –Yes. 5391. Is there any further statement which you wish to make —I saw this morning, by the very hasty glance which I had of the report of the evidence given yesterday, that I am made to say that I would have the inspector to be under the control of the Local Board. I do not think that that would answer at all; I think that the inspector ought to be an independent person, to do his duty irrespective of any local boards which might exist. If the matter were entirely under the control of the Local Board, and they were not disposed to do their duty, the consequence would be that the duty would be altogether neglected ; and, therefore, I think that a person should be appointed who would be altogether independent of them. 5392. (Mr. Harrison.) Will you specify what you think should be the duties of the Local Board 2–I think that the Local Board ought to have a general supervision over the district and to take cognizance of anything which might be reported to them by the inspector, and in this way I think that they would contribute very much to the efficiency of the plan. 5393. Would you not in that way make the inspector their servant?—No. 5394. What would be the use of his reporting to them unless to receive instructions to take action?— It is one of those important things which I think ought not to be entirely in the hands of an inspector. 5395. (Professor Way.) I suppose that the different members of the board would be a great assistance to each other, in the first instance, in carrying out such a measure, by meeting and conferring as to what could be done?—Certainly. It would be a difficult matter to carry out such a measure at all, but you might, I think, succeed if you could get the concurrence of the entire district and a Local Board established. 5396. You object to the county magistracy because they would not have the proper interest?—Certainly. There is another thing which I would just mention. I see that I am reported to have stated that we could not turn out good colours in this district. I did not state that, and I think that it would be a very unjust representation of things here if that statement went forth. I stated that we could not turn out very good colours from the river water, and I am fortified in that remark by saying that I had no doubt that in Scotland they would sustain very great injury to their manu- factures if they allowed their rivers to be polluted. 5397. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you aware that Local Boards have now power, in a very great measure, to put a stop to the nuisance of smoke 2–I believe so. 5398. Can you tell us whether they carry out those powers or not?—Not very stringently, I fear. 5399. Do you think that that is a good precedent for placing in the hands of any Local Board the power of preventing the pollution of rivers ?–If they had an inspector over them the inspector might do his duty if they did not do theirs. 5400. You would place the inspector over the Local Board —I would have both. The witness withdrew. Mr. THoMAs WILLIAM CLough (Huddersfield) further examined. 5401. (Chairman.) Do you wish to make any addi- tional statement?—I should like to add to my state- ment a suggestion upon the subject which Mr. Mellor has been speaking of namely, as to the authority which should put the Board into operation, I think that the authority should be vested in some local governing body, but in dealing with the question of pollution of rivers I think that gentlemen being owners or occupiers of factories ought not to vote at the Local Boards upon those subjects, and I think that it would RIVERS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 163 - be right for Government to retain the power of sending an inspector to make a special inquiry into the par- ticulars of each town or district on receiving a report from a certain number of ratepayers complaining of the neglect of duty on the part of the Local Board, so as to compel it, in case of necessity and on proper complaint, to do its duty, either for preventing smoke or for preventing pollution. 5402. You mean that in providing legislative measures you would not permit the polluters to govern themselves?—I would not. The witness withdrew. Mr. Joshua Hobson (Huddersfield) examined. 5403. (Chairman.) What are you ?—A newspaper editor. - - 5404. How long liave you been a resident in Huddersfield 2–I am a native of Huddersfield. I have resided in it nearly all my life. 5405. Then you are conversant, in a general way, with the commerce and trade of the district 2–Yes. 5406. I suppose that you are also acquainted with the condition of the streams and rivers ?–Yes, both past and present. 5407. Have you formed any conclusion as to whether legislative measures are necessary for the prevention of the further pollution of the rivers ?— Yes; that is an opinion which I have entertained for a long time, and I have looked forward with great interest to the proceedings which are now going on. 5408. Have you formed any idea in your own mind as to what kind of government would best carry out those measures —As has been said by previous wit- messes, it is a very difficult question. Mere local government would not realize the object, the parties are so deeply interested. The same question arises with regard to the nuisance of smoke. We find it also in the administration of local Acts, such as Im- provement Acts. 5409. Then you think that there should be a due and proper admixture of central and local authority? —Yes; and that the local authority should have jurisdiction of a large area, such as the area delineated upon that map. 5410. And if possible a complete area – Yes. 5411. Taking the area upon that map as in itself complete, you think that there should be a repre- sentative body to have control, but not an exclusive control over that area; that they should be subject to some central authority ?—Yes. The practice alluded to by yourself with regard to the valley of the Thames is a case in point. The way in which Boards of Waywardens are appointed and act under the present Highway Act would give another hint how a board might be constituted by representatives from various districts within the area. 5412. We have now several Acts of Parliament in which preventive measures are insisted upon, such, for instance, as Lord Derby's Alkali Act –Yes. 5413. And the Act for the regulation of labour in mines?–Yes; and the Factories Acts. 5414. Out of those Acts I suppose you think that a very able man might draw something which should be practical?—Yes. 5415. And which should be acceptable —Yes; and which should be effectual as well. 5416. Have you anything further to add –With regard to the model lodging-houses, I was concerned with Mr. Clough in procuring the Huddersfield Im- provement Act, and for five years I was charged with the management under the Act. I would beg to hand in the report of the Surveying Officers, which will give the Commissioners the fullest information possible as to the wretched state at that time of the lodging-houses, and the then state of the town. There are also here two statements of account showing the cost of the lodging-house. (The witness delivered in the same.) 5417. Did you hear the remarks which I made to Mr. Clough with regard to getting money at a low rate of interest for such purposes as model lodging- houses –Yes, and I heard them with very great pleasure. I am also aware that last session there was a bill before Parliament introduced by Mr. McCullagh Torrens, which was a step in the same direction. Also under the Labouring Classes Lodging Houses Act of 1851, there is full power for local boards to do all over the country, and in every place, what Alderman Waterlow and others are doing in London, that is to say, to provide habitations for labouring men. 5418. I suppose that getting the money is the great difficulty –It is. As Mr. Clough said, the Act giving power to local authorities to establish model lodging- houses has only, to my knowledge, been availed of by Huddersfield. But in addition to the power to provide model lodging-houses, there is the power to provide habitations for labouring people; so that, as far as legislation is concerned, there is full scope for local authorities to avail themselves of the power. 5419. Do you not think that, if we wish to progress in our governing power, when Acts of Parliament have been passed, there should be some authority to see that they are not forgotten ?—It is highly neces- sary. With regard to the Huddersfield model lodging- house, I may state that the total accommodation is for 155. With respect to the lavatories, it was a condi- tion imposed upon us when we established the model lodging-house, by the then General Board of Health, to whom our plans had to be submitted, and by whom they had to be approved, that we should provide in every bed-room a lavatory. That was carried out throughout the house; but perhaps Mr. Clough is not aware that in the threepenny department all those lavatories are now closed ; they are not used ; they are boarded over. They were found to be a very great inconvenience in the place. Persons very often left the taps running, which flooded the place ; and very often the pipes burst from frost ; and many other evils and nuisances were caused by them of a nature which may be judged of from the class who frequented that portion of the house, so that the lavatories have been obliged to be disused. At present the lavatories are down in the basement story not in a very good place, but the best which we can have under the circumstances. The building before it was purchased had been a wool warehouse; it was the most eligible building which could be got at the time, but it is not a fair sample of what a model lodging-house should be. 5420. And what it might be, if you made it do now —Just so. For instance, there is no drying- ground ; there is nothing worth calling a yard for an airing ground for the inmates, they have to take exer- cise in the streets. 5421. You think that a much better plan could be adopted if you began at the beginning 2–Yes. 5422. And with more advantage?—Yes. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to Tuesday, 6th November, at 11 o'clock, at Leeds. --- HUDDERS- FIELD. Mr. T. W. Clough, - 27 Oct. 1866. Mr. J. Hobson. X 2 164 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. 6 Nov. 1866. Leeds, Tuesday, 6th November 1866. PRESENT: ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THoRNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Professor John THOMAS WAY. HENRY Oxley, Esq. (Leeds), examined. H. Owley, Esq. yº. (Chairman.) Are you mayor of Leeds 2– eS 5424. How long have you been a resident in Leeds? —For 60 years, more or less. 5425. Are you connected with the trade of Leeds? –Only as a banker, not as a manufacturer. 5426. Were you cognizant of the condition of the river in your boyhood —Yes, of the river Aire. 5427. What are the names of the becks —There is what is called Beeston Beck, and Sheepscar Beck, and one or two other becks. 5428. Do they flow down through Leeds 2—Yes, they flow down into the Aire at different points. But the becks that I would specially mention are those which run westward of Leeds, and which are con- nected with the manufactures of Leeds. 5429. What condition were they in when you first knew them —I have caught little fishes in them as a boy. #80 In what condition are they now —Now, if you were to put your handkerchief in, it would come out blue in many cases. 5431. Within your own knowledge is the present state of the rivers and becks any inconvenience to the trade of the district; in other words, is the polluted water an advantage or a disadvantage to trade *-it must be a disadvantage to trade, and purer water is wanted. 5432. Within your knowledge are the rivers choked up and obstructed by the passing in of solids?—I cannot say that. 5433. You do know that the water is very much discoloured and thickened 2–Yes. 5434. In summer time is it offensive or otherwise —In summer time in some parts it is decidedly so, especially some of those small becks or rivulets. - 5435. Do you know whether clean water is consi- dered essential to any of the manufacturing processes of the district 2–I should say that it is desirable in all Ca,SeS. 5436. Have inconveniences been suffered within the borough of Leeds from the pollution of the river, and the water being rendered unfit for drinking purposes? —So much so, that I know formerly the water that was supplied to Leeds for domestic purposes was taken from the Aire; but it became so offensive that of necessity a different supply was sought for... . 5437. Where do you take it now —From the river Wharfe. 5438. Is that river polluted above the point where you take it —I do not think, it is seriously so; but to suppose that the sewage of Otley and Burley can go into the Wharfe without in some measure infecting the water is out of the question, and probably the mis- chief will eventually be much greater than it now is. 5439. Do you think that if it were practicable to prevent the pollution of the Wharfe above the point where your water supply is obtained without injuring trade, it would be desirable to carry out such a mea- sure ?–Unquestionably ; but I would always speak with reference to trade; we must have trade. 5440. That is the first necessity of the country — Yes; we live by it. If trade is to be injured by any measures that the Government may introduce, we shall be taking the butter and bread out of the mouth of the population ; if we give them water we may be taking their bread from them. 5441. Would you not say that the first care of the state should be the health and morals of its people — No doubt that is one of the primary objects of Government. 5442. If we speak as philanthropists, that is the prime object of life —Yes. 5443. Any measures that will improve the health and inferentially the morals of the people, and not be otherwise injurious, would be advisable 2–No doubt. 5444. Do foul rivers conduce to the health of the people —No, the reverse of that. 5445. The author of any remedial measure must take into consideration the monetary effect upon the trade of the district 2–Yes. 5446. If the remedial measure should prove to be ruinous, then it would be a question as to whether or not such a measure was worth having, or could be carried out?—I think it would be impossible to carry out such a measure if we took the opinion of the country at large ; it would be destructive of trade. 5447. Men may be engaged in trades which pro- duce enormous profits to individuals, but which at the same time work mischiefs out of all proportion to the benefits gained on unoffending individuals; for ex- ample, chemical manufactures have been carried on to the great profit of some individual, but to the destruc- tion of property far exceeding in value the works where the manufactures have been carried on ?—No doubt. 5448. In such a case as that should not the State step in and protect the unoffending people who are injured 2–Yes. 5449. It may be an exceptional case?—Yes, I know there have been cases in which it was thought inter- ference would be ruinous ; but it has been found not only beneficial to the inhabitants, but profitable to the parties concerned. But, however, I do not say that that rule would apply in all cases. I think in some it would apply, and in some it would not. 5450. With regard to the casting into the river of refuse from the manufactures of the district, tanning and dyeing, and other processes which pollute the becks, and the casting in of sewage from the town or from individual houses, if all that can be prevented, not only without doing injury, but with advantages, do not you think it would be wise to prevent it 2–I think so. 5451. Do you think it will be done if the state does not take any steps in the matter?—I could not say that that would be the case, because I have seen that from one cause or another, or from negligence, mea- sures have not been taken which would be productive of profit to the individuals taking them. 5452. Do you find it difficult at any time to carry out preventive or remedial measures in your town council —Do you mean measures to be passed in the town council 5453. Supposing you have a question of riverpol- lution, involving restrictions upon manufactures, or a question of smoke prevention, or other analogous ques- tions, is there a difficulty in carrying a remedial mea- sure through the town council?—I do not think there is really any practical difficulty about it. There has been some relaxation, or there was some, as to the smoke question some time ago, but that was because exceptions were made in our Smoke Act, and it was thought undesirable that smaller people should be made to consume their smoke at an expense which they felt, while some larger manufacturers, such as dyers and iron manufacturers, were allowed to exer- cise their free will. 5454. Taking it for granted that the town council or the town of Leeds is absolutely perfect, and that you are willing to do all you can to prevent these pol- lutions, does it follow that all towns above you and below you will follow your good example —No ; and RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 165 that is one of the difficulties we have to deal with. You may force a manufacturer just on this side of the boundary of the borough to do what he finds expensive, while a manufacturer immediately over the boundary may not do so; therefore, the one says, you put me to a disadvantage compared with my neighbour. 5455. Are there not some persons so forgetful of their duty to the community that, although they would willingly take advantage of an improvement carried out at whatever cost by the municipality, would not stir in the matter themselves unless they were put compul- sorily under some regulations?—Yes, I think so. 5456. That being so, although some town councils may be willing to work out their own improvements, you can imagine that there may be other communities that would not be so willing 2—I can easily conceive that, and I believe it. I think that there must be a General Act rather than a Local Act to effect these objects. 5457. You would have local powers conferred upon your municipality, but those powers should also extend over the whole drainage area, and be equally compul- sory upon every manufacturer within that area –Yes, there must be an Act to affect all manufacturers alike, otherwise you will place Leeds at a disadvantage, say with Wakefield, or give supposed advantages to Wake- field which Leeds does not possess. I mention Wake- field simply as one town; it might be Otley. 5458. Taking those views, do you think that the Crown was justified in issuing the Commission which is now sitting here to inquire into these subjects — Perfectly so. 5459. It is our duty to consult the several interests throughout the district, to ascertain the views which are entertained, and then to frame such a report as we may deem advisable after we have received the evidence that may be offered, and recommend such restrictions, if they are to be called so, as shall be for the general benefit of the whole area —Yes. 5460. The word “restrictions” may perhaps convey, if not explain, the idea of something unpalatable. I mean restrictions based upon common sense, and which shall be capable of being practically carried out 2–Just so. My own opinion is that some mea- sure ought to be passed which shall force, if you like to use that term, operations which can be fairly and reasonably carried out without damaging the trade itself, but which shall be beneficial to those who are not engaged in that trade, and to the public at large. 5461. With regard to the requisite machinery for carrying out such an Act, do you think that the controlling power should have its seat in the district, and be constituted by some form of representation — I am hardly prepared to give an answer to the ques- tion,-whether such powers would be best left in the hands of a local body, or should be superintended and enforced by a general commission; it involves a good deal of consideration. 5462. If an Act in this country is to be beneficially worked, it must be in some degree in accordance with the spirit and feelings of the inhabitants of the dis- trict 2–No doubt. 5463. (Mr. Harrison.) You say you remember when the river Aire was the source of water supply to the town of Leeds —Yes, the supply was taken at Leeds Bridge. 5464. How long ago is that ?—I cannot say exactly, but perhaps 25 or 30 years ago. 5465. Was the Aire a good source of water supply at that time —No. 5466. Had it been deteriorating up to that time and for some time before ?—With the increase of manufactures there is no doubt that the water would have deteriorated, and the increase of manufactures has been going on ever since I was a boy. 5467. Do you remember at any time when the Aire was a good source of supply to the town of Leeds – Not in my time certainly. 5468. In consequence of the Aire being a bad source of supply, has the town of Leeds gone to great expense to obtain a good one —It has gone to a large expense to obtain a better supply. I do not think it is a bad supply at present. 5469. Are there not many small towns and vil- lages on the banks of the Aire that are not in the position of Leeds as to wealth, so as to be able to obtain such a supply as Leeds has 2–Yes, there are but I apprehend that they take their supply princi- pally from wells they have dug down. 5470. Do you know of your own knowledge that that is so *—I know that there are wells in various districts and little springs, but I cannot speak as to the exact state of the water supply of the many vil- lages that there are in this neighbourhood. I know some of them are very indifferently supplied. 5471. You were speaking just now of the disadvan- tages of one town as compared with another. Are you aware that manufacturers at Wakefield are obliged at considerable expense to keep their ashes out of the river?—It was more in reference to the consumption of smoke that I spoke. I mentioned Wakefield simply as a town that happened to strike me. I might have named Huddersfield. 5472. Are you aware that many manufacturers in Huddersfield tip their ashes cheaply and easily into the river, whereas manufacturers in Wakefield are obliged at some expense to keep them out of the river?—I do not know that of my own knowledge, but I should say that they have no more business to but ashes into the river at one place than at the other. 5473. At present there is an unequal condition of things; the town of Wakefield is suffering from manu- facturers at Huddersfield being allowed to create a nuisance from which manufacturers at Wakefield suffer?—Yes, and I think it ought not to be so. 5474. Are you aware that Wakefield used to be a town rather famous for dyeing –Yes, I can remem- ber the time when a great quantity of white cloth was made in Wakefield ; it was a great district in conse- quence of its pure water and better cleansing. 5475. Are you aware that in consequence of the pollution of the river above Wakefield by the increase of manufactures, a good deal of that trade has been lost to Wakefield 2–I can hardly say that it has been entirely on that ground. I think it was withdrawn from Wakefield, partly from the extension of manu- factures elsewhere. 5476. The truth appears to be this that the exist- ing and increasing pollution of the rivers caused by the manufacturing activity of some towns is actually doing an injury to other towns?—No doubt it must be so. I should say that Leeds would damage any town that carried on manufactures below it. 5477. Has not Leeds been injured by the increase of manufactures in towns above it?—To some extent it probably may have been, but I do not know that there are many large manufacturers above Leeds; there are manufactories at Shipley, but I do not know that that has been the cause of the pollution of the Aire to the extent that it is polluted. I think that the pollu- tion of the Aire at Leeds comes more from our own immediate neighbourhood than from anything taking place above, Leeds, unless indeed the river is pol- luted from Skipton. 5478. (Professor Way.) Is it not largely polluted by the sewage of towns above quite apart from manu- facturers?—It must be, naturally so, and the greater the population the worse that must be. 5479. Does not Bradford drain into the river ?— Yes, and that can do us no good. I should say that the pollution of the river Aire is increased year by year, as there are more waterclosets being continually constructed in the town. The greater part of the sewage of the district which was formerly led away by carts is now carried into the Aire. 5480. Any steps that may be taken to prevent pol- Jution of rivers by manufactures should also be made applicable to the prevention of pollution by town drainage –Yes, I think that that is the worst source of pollution in many respects. The witness withdrew, LEEDS. H. Orley, Esq. 6 Nov. 1866. X 3 166 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OFCEVIDENCE, LEEDS, W. Ferrand, Esq. 6 Nov. 1866. – on WILLIAM FERRAND, Esq. (St. Ives, Bingley), examined.º 5481. (Chairman.) Where do you reside?—At St. Ives, near Bingley, in Yorkshire. 5482. Is that situated upon the river Aire?—I live about a mile from the river. 5483. How long have you been acquainted with the river Aire 2–Ever since I was a boy of seven years of age. 5484. You have known the river Aire for so many years above and below and opposite Bingley –I have. 5485. In what condition was that river in your boyhood?—It was a beautiful clear river, and it con- tained great quantities of trout, grayling, eels, and cray-fish. 5486. At what date would that have been 2–I remember it from the year 1817 to 1826. I resided on the banks till I was 17. I was then absent from it for three years, but was in the habit of repeatedly fishing in it for those three years; from the time when I returned to this time I have lived close adjoining to it. 5487. At what date did pollutions commence to affect the river ?–Pollutions began to affect the river about the year 1830 from Bradford, below Bradford beck; above Bradford beck I cannot say that there was any appreciable pollution till about the year 1840. 5488. Increased pollution of the stream took place simultaneously with extension of trade and manufac- tures, and the building of mills?—Exactly so. 5489. Will you state shortly what the pollutions are 2–There is town sewage and refuse from wool- washing and dye water, but not above Bradford beck. Below Saltaire there are large dyeworks, above Sal- taire there is no dye refuse that is appreciable in the river Aire. 5490. The river is polluted by fluids; is it also ob- structed by solids?–Yes, to a most serious extent. 5491. Are you a riparian owner —I am, for three or four miles of the river Aire. 5492. You being a riparian owner consider, no doubt, that at present you have the privilege of doing what you think proper with that part of the river, that is within the bounds of your property?—Yes. 5493. You can embank it, or encroach upon it as you please ?–Yes. 5494. Should you feel at liberty to tip foundation material into it if you were building 2–1 could do it. 5495. You are not aware of any restrictions – There is no legislative restriction to prevent it. 5496. There is no authority that does prevent it * —No. 5497. Will you describe the kind of solids that you find are thrown into the river, obstructing its flow and raising its bed 2–There are some parts of the river Aire near Bingley which, when I was young, were five or six feet deep in water. They are now in the summer months bare beds of stone and mud banks and foetid filth. 5498. When you first knew the river, if the water happened to below you had a bright clear and spark- ling bottom 2–It was a beautifully bright clear river with a sandy bottom, and the bed was covered with round stones and beautifully clean. 5499. If the water is low now in summer what is the character of the bottom –The water at the bot. tom is sludge, and the stones are covered with filth, which, when exposed to the air, cracks into innume- rable pieces, and the stench is quite disgusting ; and then there are solids of various kinds thrown in. 5500. Will you describe them –Yes, I can give you the solids that are turned in. At Keighley engine ashes, house ashes, foundry dross, building founda- tions, and cellar diggings; broken bricks and stones from old and new buildings; old iron pans, skips and chimneys; broken chimney pots, flowerpots, drain pipes, crockery, and glass bottles; zinc, and tin cuttings, and every kind of refuse. If you will allow me I will pro- duce before you what I took out of the river n Monday last (producing a bag-full). That (pointing to a mass of 8/bs, or 10/bs. weight) is foundry dross washed down the river Worth at Keighley. I took ºilo - ºn it out of the bed of the river about 100 yards below the mouth of the river Worth, upon which the town of Keighley stands. - 5501. Have you any idea what is the name of the works or district where that foundry dross comes from ?–It come from the town of Keighley; there are now large iron foundry works there, and they throw in engine ashes, or any other kind of refuse ; they pitch it on the banks of the river Worth. 5502. Or lay it on the margin of the river ?—They do not lay it to any great extent on the margin; they lay it on to the bed of the river for three or four yards º at the foot of the slope; they pile it up yards igh. 5503. And the floods undercut the bank and let it fall down 2-Yes, but the floods cannot take it away; they send men to shovel it into the mid stream; the men pitch it in with their hands, and down it goes into the river Worth, and is forwarded to the river Aire. 5504. (Professor Way.) Was that mass so brought down 2–This has come more than a mile down the river Worth into the river Aire. I went there yesterday week to examine it ; there are I suppose from the town Keighley, at the mouth of the river Worth, and for a mile down the river Aire, thousands of cart loads, which have been turned into the Worth and the river Aire within the last few years; but you see this has been rolled down with the force of the stream, which is an inclined plane, into the river. I saw this just rising out of the water. The bed is stowed all round with this kind of dross, and engine ashes, which I have not brought—bricks, and the kind of refuse I have described. I lifted this up just as you see it, and out it came of a deep hole. I took this (pointing to another piece) out of a bed of solid refuse, which some few years ago I remember being 3 ft. or 4 ft. deep in water. This foundry dross is now allowed to roll into the river, and of course it is filling up the deeps in that place. A considerable portion of the land on the banks below there is my property; this (pointing to the same) being a heavier substance than engine ashes, has not been met with in the neighbour- hood of Bingley, or any considerable distance lower down. I believe that the iron foundries at Keighley have not been carried on to any great extent till within the last few years. Besides what I have produced, I saw on this very bank an iron pan that would hold I would say eight or ten gallons. There were several holes in it, and therefore it had been thrown away; but this iron pan had become full of refuse, and it was filling up the bed of the river. I also saw an iron chimney pipe, several feet long, worn out and thrown away, which had been carried down by the flood. I saw an iron frying-pan, and a considerable quantity of other iron refuse. 5505. (Chairman.) We may take it generally that the river is fouled by the throwing in without stint of such refuse as you have produced and spoken to ?–Yes. 5506. Whether they throw in one ton or a million, it is entirely at their option ?—Everybody in the town of Keighley deliberately goes to the river Worth, or Keighley Beck, and empties into it what they think proper. I was called to Keighley a few months ago, as a magistrate, to hear some charges that were preferred by the Keighley local board of health, against some manufacturers in the town of Keighley, for obstructing the river Worth. Being a person interested in the river I declined to act, and with difficulty we found two magistrates, who were con- sidered disinterested persons. They heard the case; and the defence was that the Keighley local board of health themselves violated the law, by setting the example, and throwing whatever refuse they thought proper into the river Worth. 5507. In such a case as that, you would probably consider that local boards would require to be put under restraint as well as individuals?–Most decidedly. 5508. That the law should be restrictive upon public, as well as private individuals : – Exactly, and I will give you my reason ; the Keighley local RIVERS COMMISSION:-MiNUTES OF EVIDENCE. 167 board of health is appointed, I may say, under strong local feeling. There are indeed some members of that Board who have been extremely anxious to introduce a system of filtering sewage, and also of stopping refuse from being put into the river Worth. A gentle- man in Keighley, a large manufacturer, took a very active part in endeavouring to put a stop to this filling of the river Worth with refuse. He went into the town of Keighley, and complained to the inhabitants, and begged and entreated that they would no longer act in this manner, pointing out that it was a violation of the law, and that his property was so seriously injured, that he should be obliged to appeal to the law for protection. The chairman of the local board of health came out of his house, and said to this gentleman, “What you put a stop to our putting ashes into Keighley Beck?” and he ran into his house, and he brought either a skip full of ashes, or a shovel full, and pitched them over the bridge into the beck, and said, “Now go and do your worst.” And from that time they have done their worst, for every person has acted as I have described to you. I was going to say, that when a certain number of the members of the Keighley local board of health wished to put a stop to all these nuisances, they were defeated by a majority of the board ; and I believe that if the question was left to the Keighley local board of health, you never would have a stop put to these nuisances, or to the obstruction to the river, because it would be made a matter of personal contest annually, in the election of the board of health. 5509. Then the conclusions you have arrived at are that there must be an independent authority, having jurisdiction over corporations and local boards, in case of river pollutions : — I should recommend Government inspection ; and my impression is that Government inspection can never be satisfactorily carried out, unless it be also placed under the local direction of the magistrates. Whether in a town like Leeds, you would place the direction in the hands of the borough magistrates I do not know, but I should say it would be very proper to do so. I see no ob- jection whatever to that, but it must be remembered that a great part of these nuisances arise where there are no borough magistrates, but only county magis- trates. I may state, that live dogs and cats are thrown not only into the river Aire, but into many of the little becks and feeders of the river; dead dogs, cats, pigs, sheep, and calves are thrown both into the feeders and into the river Aire, for which there is no penalty whatever; and the summer before last, when I returned home from Parliament, after having served a considerable length of time upon a sewage committee, I took a walk on the banks of the river Aire, and I saw two putrid sheep, and a putrid pig lying upon one bank, and I could smell them long before I came in sight of them. I might add that the first flood that comes after a drought of several weeks, which is frequently the case, washes these dead carcases into the deeps about Leeds, where they stop in all probability, and produce a serious nuisance. 5510. There is no systematic scavenging of the river ?–Nothing ; the water of the river is left to scavenge itself. 5511. There is no authority whose duty it is to take out these carcases and bury them?—None whatever. I would suggest the desirability in the valley of the Aire, and in all these manufacturing districts, of sanitary reservoirs, for the purpose of cleansing the beds of the rivers and of their feeders by flushing. It must be remembered that now the water supply is becoming of such importance in these densely populous districts, that we have had reservoirs made to collect the water. Before they were made, a thunderstorm was of vital consequence to the health of those manu- facturing districts; the water rushed down into all those becks and feeders, and into the river Aire, sweeping the filth before it, and carrying it down to the levels towards the sea. Now when we have a heavy thunderstorm in my neighbourhood in the summer months, we very seldom find that it has any appreciable effect in cleansing the becks or the rivers, for those large reservoirs stop the waters in their course, and by the time the thunderstorm is over, you may go and look at one of those reservoirs and you will find that it has been filled to the brim by the extra fall of water, but the becks below those reservoirs remain in the same filthy state they were in before. A thunder- storm has very little effect upon the river Aire, comparatively speaking. 5512. I suppose that is a matter of engineering detail for future consideration ?—Exactly. 5513. If you prevent pollutions going into the rivers, there will be less necessity for flushing them out 2– Decidedly. - 5514. Perhaps prevention will be the cheapest and best remedy ?–Yes. 5515. In dredging the beds of the rivers and streams to remove those accumulations and solids you have spoken about, have you experienced on your own estate or elsewhere any flooding of adjoining lands caused by the bed of the river having been raised?— No doubt of it. I may mention that some gentlemen living upon the higher part of the river Aire, in the neighbourhood of Skipton, obtained an Act of Parlia- ment some years ago for the purpose of draining their land; they were called the Airedale Drainage Company. A Committee of the House of Commons, without at all considering the real merits of the question, or the claims of the inhabitants living below where this drainage took place, reported in its favour, and the Act gave the company the power of cutting off three miles of water between the Keighley Beck and the town of Skipton. The consequence has been that they have drained the valley of the Aire between Skipton and Steeton already, by causing the water to flow with far greater rapidity down to the land below. My property commences a short distance below the mouth of the Keighley Beck, and that beck has been filling up now for two or three years so rapidly, as well as the river Aire down below it, that what with the river Worth rushing down from Keighley, and the river Aire rushing down from a higher portion of the valley, the water opposite to Riddlesden, where the mouth of the beck of the Worth is, has risen much higher than it used to do ; it flows down over the bed of the river with great force : it is now back-watering for two miles below, and the consequence is that the foul- ness that comes down from Keighley is spread over the land, and we are not only getting a flood on the land, but a flood of polluted water. The other day I walked through the water, shooting; and I can assure you that it was then several inches deep in many parts on both sides of the river Aire. I walked on the furrows in a potato field, and the water was three or four inches deep on each side, and there was quite a disagreeable smell from it. One reason why the Committee of the House of Commons reported in favour of the bill I have referred to was that medical evidence was produced from Skipton to show that they were suffering seriously from typhus fever in that neighbourhood, in consequence of the land being flooded ; it was shown to the Committee that the bill would only remove this nuisance from Skipton down to the neighbourhood of Keighley. A question was put to Mr. Bateman, whether this river could not have been cleaned out by the proprietors for a few thousand pounds, so as to have lowered its bed, and let the water come down its natural channel, instead of going to the expense of 60,000l. as this company proposed to do. 5516. This I suppose may be regarded as a by- gone matter –Yes, but I was going to point out to you the effect of the owners of one portion interfering without the interest of those below them being con- sidered. - 5517. Without a full scheme 2–Yes; we at that time proposed a full scheme. What I would suggest to you is this, that all owners of property on the banks of rivers should be compelled to keep the course of the river clear sofar as it passes by their property. If you compel manufacturers to keep out the refuse LEEDS. W. Ferrand, Esq. 6 Nov. 1866. X 4 168 RIVERS COMMISSION:--MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS, W. Ferrand, Esq. -- 6 Nov. 1866. which is now turned in, proprietors on the banks should be compelled to remove all wreck and fallen timber. Excepting myself, landed proprietors in this neighbourhood, as long as I can remember, have never once thought of clearing out any fallen timber. I have seen in the river Aire, in the neighbourhood of Skipton, large trees which have fallen in, reaching two thirds perhaps of the way across the river, and those trees have remained there year after year, no one making any attempt to remove them, because the timber would not pay the expense of doing so. I would suggest that whatever bill might be brought in by the Government, owners of riparian land should be compelled to clear the beds of the rivers, and if they should fail to do so, then I should recommend that a Government inspector should be empowered to do the necessary work, compelling the owners on the banks of the rivers to pay the expense. 5518. Have any special works been carried out in the town of Keighley —Yes, lately there have been Sonne. 5519. Of what description ?—I can only describe them in this way; there was an old drain that carried a portion of the drainage of Keighley into the river Aire, and lately the authorities have carried out con- siderable drainage or sewerage works in the town of Keighley, and they have brought down the sewage of the town, and a large amount of manufacturing refuse, by a culvert, and turned it into the river Aire, a few yards above the mouth of the Keighley Beck. 5520. What effect has that had upon the river ?– The effect is most extraordinary. Not long ago I saw gases floating on the surface of the river. 5521. You mean, I presume, that you saw evidences of gas of an iridescent colour –Yes, I saw gas-tar or refuse, a kind of thick foetid substance, of about eight inches in depth; that was between 1 and 2 o'clock in the day, when the mills were standing, and the water had fallen. I stooped down to look into this culvert, and I saw above the water human excrements sticking to the walls on each side, and I can assure you that the smell was horrible. I may state that Mr. Lister of Bradford erected there a few years ago some very large greaseworks, where grease is extracted from wool washings; this filth is let out at certain periods, and it comes down to the river Aire, and I have seen it kill fish ; I have seen fish turn up scores of yards below the mouth of the culvert where it came in. 5522. Turning from the question of pollution to remedial measures, you have had, I believe, considerable experience in Parliamentary committees when inquiries have taken place relating to utilization of sewage – Yes. 5523. I believe you were a member of one of the committees which inquired into the proposed utiliza- tion of the metropolitan sewage 7–Yes. 5524. Did you arrive at any conclusions from the evidence given by witnesses examined before that committee –I did. 5525. Were they favourable to the utilization of sewage or otherwise —Decidedly favourable. 5526. Are you of opinion that the sewage of towns may be profitably utilized if land can be found favour- ably situated, and proper means are taken —I am of that opinion, and I think that the valley of the Aire is admirably situated, with regard both to the towns adjoining the Aire, and the manufacturing villages on the hill sides, for carrying out a system of filtering and irrigation in many parts. Upon the high lands in my neighbourhood irrigation is carried on to a con- siderable extent with the greatest profit and advantage. I may mention that I convey the sewage from my own house and my farmyard on to some land which I own below it, and by the system of irrigation I can annually produce now upon only four or five acres of land a quantity fourfold of that which the same land produced before. I have had pipes laid down which convey the washings of the farmyard, and also all the sewage from the house, the sinks, the laundry, the brewhouse, and the waterclosets, into one cistern, where a mixture takes place of what comes from the farmyard and from the house. This is carried on to the land by open drains, within half a dozen yards of one of our prettiest walks, where ladies are passing and re-passing repeatedly during the day; I do not believe that any one of them has ever yet discovered any disagreeable smell. 5527. The land absorbs the liquid and destroys any noxious smell?—It does entirely. I know by experience that you may walk over the land and you cannot discover the slightest annoyance. No doubt if you were to put your nose down near the mouth where the cistern is, you might distinguish a foul air coming out of it, but you cannot smell anything half- a-dozen yards off. 5528. If any person shouid state that sewage irri- gation must necessarily be injurious and offensive, should you be inclined to think that the system was not properly carried out, or that such persons were correct in their opinion ?—I think that a great deal depends upon the strength of the sewage, and upon its proper dilution. I can give you as an instance the village of Wilsden, which is not any great distance from where I reside. There is a population there of 3,000 persons, and the sewage to all that village, with the exception of a few cottages, is conveyed on to some land of which I am the owner, but which is let to a tenant; he has had the sewage laid upon a meadow, and some pasture land besides, to the extent I suppose of perhaps 15 or 20 acres, and during the whole of the summer, as well as in the winter, this sewage has been laid upon the land; I have repeatedly driven Mrs. Ferrand, who suffers from delicate health, along the road near to which this sewage has been laid on the land; there is nothing but a wall between it and the road, and I have never once heard her com- plain of feeling any annoyance from it. 5529. Your experience then is that sewage irriga- tion may be carried on, if properly conducted, with- out doing any injury, or causing any nuisance?— Decidedly. 5530. And with decided benefit to the person carry- ing on the operation ?–No doubt of it. 5531. What do you grow from the application of your sewage —Mine is ordinary pasture land, but I may say that I have laid it on to the ploughed land; not the sewage from my house, but from the dog- kennels; I have laid it on to the ploughed land, and it is quite extraordinary to see the crop of turnips that is produced from land which this sewage has gone over. 5532. Might not such sewage be beneficially used for green crops, as well as for grass?–No doubt of it. To refer to the town of Bingley, the sewage there could be conveyed on to land at a moderate expense, and that land which lets at 50s. or 3/. an acre, would be then worth, for market gardens, I have no doubt, 15t. or 20ſ, an acre; I state this in consequence of the evidence and facts which were brought before us when I was a member of the Com- mittee which sat on this subject in the House of Commons. 5533. Do you think that the Keighley local board could find means to utilize the sewage of the town if they were compelled to do so?—Yes, with the greatest ease ; I believe they have had the advice of a surveyor, and of my own agent, Mr. Booth, of Halifax, and I think he says that with a few cisterns they may filter all the sewage of Keighley, and they wish to do so; two thirds of the gentlemen who are engaged in trade in Keighley are anxious for it, but it happens that they are opposed by the Keighley local board which, as I have before stated, is a board elected under somewhat strong feelings in the town. Before I leave this subject, I should like to describe to you the process by which I carry out the filtering, and which I should suggest for the applica- tion of town sewage ; I should recommend certain rows of tanks gradually falling on an incline, capable, say, of holding the sewage for one day. I would bring the solids in there (describing by a sketch,) and if RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 169 necessary let the solids go into two tanks; I would then have earth, house ashes, saw-dust, and road scrapings, which had been kept dry under sheds, placed in the lower tanks, and I should let the sewage run from one into the other until they became thoroughly full, and the earth contained as much sewage as it could, and by the time it had run through three or four tanks it might be conveyed into the river Aire, and it would run out as pure I believe as water well could be, indeed as clear as water itself. 5534. That you believe would be the result from filtering —Yes. 5535. That would not be irrigating —No, I am now talking of the filtering process; I believe that the town of Keighley, with four of these rows of tanks, would be able to filter all its sewage, and more than that, they would make many thousands a year by it. That is thy belief, from the trade which is carried on there and the improved style of houses which are built there, all with waterclosets. If it was found afterwards that the water was not sufficiently clear by this filtering process, they might easily, by the use of hose pipes, convey the water into the valley below, and lead it on to pasture land ; I have seen that carried on in my own neighbourhood, filtering refuse from mill dye water, and the water has come into the stream as clear as water could be. 5536. At whose mill was that ?--At Messrs. Town- hend and Cullingworth’s mill, near Bingley. 5537. Is the process now in operation ?—Yes. 5538. (Professor Way.) You say that filters are made for the purpose of purifying dye water -–Yes; dye water and refuse from wool washing are com- pletely cleansed out, and the effluent water comes out perfectly clear. 5539. By passing through a filter of earth 2–Yes, and that is done for months of the year together. 5540. Is it an expensive process —No, it is a very reasonable one. The plan is set forth in a letter which Mr. Townhend addressed to me, and which was laid before the committee that sat in the House of Com- mons; it will be found upon the minutes of their proceedings. 5541. Do the filters occupy much space —No, they do not. - 5542. Is the mill to which you have referred a large one P--The works are very large now, and they have been increasing them. I am sorry to say that I have been obliged to resort to legal measures upon this subject, and the case is now before the Court of Chancery. For years (and this the defendant admits himself) the water was perfectly clear, and I can vouch for that. 5543. (Chairman.) I suppose the common law of England is strong enough at the present time to pre- vent nuisances 2–Yes, if it can be carried out. 5544. The machinery is difficult and costly —Yes. 5545. And necessarily involves the action of indi- viduals – Yes, it creates a great deal of bad feeling, and it is far better avoided if possible. 5546. You would perhaps say that prevention of river pollution and nuisances requires some machinery which would remove responsibility from individuals and odium from neighbours?—Exactly so. There is another thing that I wish to mention. At many manufactories in large towns the excrements are re- moved in barrels at an annual cost, and I believe some millowners receive as much as 10l. a year, or even more than that, from the farmers. They bring barrels and place them at the foot of the privies. There is a little iron plate, of no great size, which is just drawn out, and a tube conveys the soil into an open space at the top of the barrel, and it runs down there until it is nearly full ; then the iron plate is pushed back again, and a man conveys this barrel through villages and towns to the very great nuisance of the inhabi- tants. The smell is quite disgusting. The farmer carries the soil to his field and mixes it with dry earth. He then allows it to remain close to the roadside during * and until spring; then he leads it on to his all Cl. 5547. Have you seen any of the dry-earth closets 2 —I have not, but I have heard of them. 5548. (Professor Way.) The method which you have just described, of carrying away the excrements into the country, relieves the river of course to that extent 2–Yes. 5549. Is it not the fact that urine is collected from cottages and used in factories for washing wool –– That is not so much done in my neighbourhood as in the woollen districts where cloth is manufactured. 5550. So that in one case solid excrements are taken from the mills to the country, and in the other case the liquid excrement is brought from the country to the mills —Yes, the latter is necessary for trade, and I feel sure that no man would object to anything of that kind as far as urine is concerned. 5551. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you remember the manu- facturing process carried on in this neighbourood before trade was concentrated in large mills —Yes. 5552. What used they to do with the refuse arising from cleansing cloth and dyeing it in those days 2–I live in the worsted district, and I have not been much in the cloth manufacturing districts. 5553. What used they to do with soap and other refuse from the worsted manufactures –In my young days there were very few mills, but now there are a great number of mills. When wool-combing by hand took place you generally found what was called a wool-washing shop on a part of the premises, and below this wool-washing shop there was generally a tank or pit dug out of the earth, which was 15 or 20 feet long and 3 or 4 feet deep. A drain was made from the wool-washing shop to the edge of this pit, and the master manufacturer would fill the pit to about one-half of its depth with soil, and when the soapsuds saturated this soil thoroughly the pit used to be cleared out, and the contents were carried on to land; then fresh earth was put into the pit, and the same process went on. It was a very rare thing for any person in those days to turn soapsuds into the river or the beck, because they were considered too valuable. 5554. Did the water from those tanks pass off clear 2 —There was very little in some, except what came from the wool-washing. Then when hand wool- combing ceased, and wool was combed by machinery, manufacturers began to comb much more on their own premises. Before that time a great portion of the wool- combing was scattered over the country; people used to comb the wool in the villages, and they were called basketers from the basket of wool they carried on their shoulders with 31bs. or 4lbs. of soap for washing it. But the farmers found it to their interest to provide them with wool-washing shops on the slopes of the hills, and then the soapsuds were run on to the land. Since it has become the practice to extract the grease we have had built large sheds for wool-washing and extraction of grease, generally on the edge of some stream, and all the refuse which is valuable for tillage goes into the river and causes a great deal of nuisance, of which the public now complain. 5555. Are you well acquainted with the villages in the neighbourhood of the river Aire 2–I am in the parts higher up the river. 5556. How are the villages adjoining the river sup- plied with water —They have a large number of springs. The mayor of Leeds, who was examined, alluded to some wells, but we have not many wells; we have a great number of surface springs that come out to the day upon the hill sides and run down towards the houses. 5557. Are the people generally speaking well sup- plied with water and not dependent upon the river Aire —No. I know of becks in my neighbourhood from which the people have constantly taken water for household purposes, but now they never think of doing so, and many of them are put to great incon- venience because they have to go a considerable dis- tance to get water. 5558. What did you mean when you spoke of a company above having cut off the water between Keighley and Bingley -They obtained powers to Y LEEDS. l 71 59–2, W. Ferrand, Esq. 6 Nov. 1866. 170 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS, W. Ferrand, Esq. 6 Nov. 1866, cut the river straight, so that every gentleman on the banks of the Aire, between Leeds and Skipton, was deprived of three miles of water power, and to my astonishment there was no movement made, except by myself, with a view to stopping it. The Commis- sioners will perceive that as a matter of health those three miles of water power were of vital importance to the district. What I mean will be seen by referring to this map; they cut off the whole of this bend (pointing to the map). 5559. They could not take away the fall —No, but they took away the whole of this water for the use of the mill dams, and if they carry out the whole of the scheme it will deprive the millowners in this valley (pointing to the map), the town of Leeds, and very populous districts on the banks of the Aire of three miles of water. 5560. (Chairman.) How many landowners were involved in the scheme you have referred to ?--There were six or seven of them who got up this scheme. They let all this water down by a straight line upon me and upon other landowners situated below, and the scheme has been a great failure. - 5561. Did the qmestion of a majority or a minority arise as to the adoption of the scheme —Not at all. The parties went to Parliament and a committee was appointed, and the promoters induced the committee to approve of their scheme. We complained that the landowners below had never been consulted. 5562. Were the landowners who possessed those particular estates benefited by what they did, irrespec- fively of landowners above or below them —Yes. 5563. Were they at all opposed in Parliament – Yes, I opposed them in the committee, and a clause was given to me to the effect that these parties were to pay me ample compensation for all the damage they had done me and my tenants. 5564. (Mr. Harrison.) Is it the fact that from the river having been straightened above, or from Keighley refuse filling up the bed of the river, your lands on the sides of the Aire are more flooded now than they used to be 2–Yes, combined with letting the water down as is now done. Instead of the water going through all these bends (pointing to the map) as it did before, and coming down slowly, it now comes in a straight line which they have artificially made; it comes down like an arrow. - 5565. Is it the fact that your land is now more flooded than it used to be?–Yes, and most seriously so. 5566. (Professor Way.) They have removed an objectionable state of things from themselves and have thrown it upon you ?—Yes; but they have a sparse population in that neighbourhood compared with us. 5567. That is one of the cases for which an arrange- ment should have been made under a general scheme * —Yes. F. Darwin, Esq. 5568. Such a result would not be possible if the river were placed under proper control —No ; that is exactly what I mean. I mean to say this, that if we had had Government inspection throughout the country that which occurred would never have been allowed, nor would there have been the same risk of typhus fever at Keighley and below there as Skipton was stated to have suffered. 5569. Have you had any experience of the use of dye water on land, or has it ever been used within your knowledge —I have heard that it has, but I have no personal knowledge of it. 5570. The flooding of the land which you have spoken of with the foul water of the river would, under certain circumstances, I suppose, be rather advan- tageous if it came at the proper time –Yes; and in this way, if you could flood the land and let the water sink into it, it is very well; but if the water is exposed to the sun the matter it contains will decompose, as has been the case during the last summer. 5571. You do not wish, I suppose, to convey the impression that there was injurious matter in the water, but that the water came on at an objectionable time 2 —I think you will agree with me in this, that when sewage is placed on land it must sink into it, and when the land has become completely saturated with it you must remove it to another place. 5572. We are not to suppose that the matter which renders the river, Calder impure will be necessarily injurious to land if the liquid be properly applied ?– No, I believe it would be most valuable. But there is another way in which the foul condition of the river is a serious injury : I mean to farmers who are prevented from watering their cattle. During the summer months, in the deeps below Keighley, I have frequently seen cows on a hot day go to the brink of the river, put their heads down and smell it, toss their heads up a few times, and then walk away. 5573. (Chairman.) You mean that the polluted water prevents its use for agricultural purposes and for cattle 3–Yes. 5574. And therefore it is injurious to agriculture ? —Decidedly it is during summer months. I cannot say that I have seen anything of the same sort in winter, but I have seen it in the summer frequently. 5575. Must there not have been something excep- tionally bad in the river water which induced the cattle to reject it, or do cattle usually reject polluted water –I have seen cattle drink water out of a rutin the road when it has been quite dirty. 5576. Will they not drink it out of a farmyard pond into which dung has drained 2–Yes, I have seen them do that. - 5577. Could it be acids from bleach and dye works which made cattle reject this water 2–No ; there is nothing of that kind at Keighley. I believe the pollution is caused by Mr. Lister's greaseworks. I have observed the stench of the water hundreds of yards from the river, when a flush of water has come down from his works, and the cattle would not drink it. 5578. The cattle reject that particular water, not because they will not drink polluted water, but because there is some special pollution in it 2–Yes, I have no doubt of it. I have alluded to the dyeworks of Messrs. Townhend and Company. The water flows down through my property, and I have seen the cattle there in scarce times refuse to drink the water : there is dye water there and soap washing. 5579. (Professor Way.) I suppose there is a diffe- rence between the kind of polluted water that cattle will not drink and sewage —My firm conviction is that during the summer months, with the sewage of the town of Keighley running into the river Aire, no cattle will drink the river water in the deeps below the outfall. The witness withdrew. FRANCIS DARwin, Esq. (Creskeld near Otley), examined. 5580. (Chairman.) Are you in the commission of the peace?—Yes. I am a magistrate for the West Riding. 5581. Where do you reside —At Creskeld near Otley. 5582. How long have you known the river Aire near Castleford 2–I have not known it for more than 10 years. 5583. Do you know it intimately in that district — Yes; my attention was first drawn to it when the cattle plague broke out; at that time I was chairman of the bench of magistrates for the West Riding. We assembled at Leeds in consequence of the outbreak of - the disorder among cattle, and then I thought it my duty to go and look at the state of the river, it having been asserted that the condition of the river was the cause of the outbreak of the cattle disease in the Thorpe Hall Pasture. 5584. What opinion did you form upon that ques- tion ?—I should hardly go the length of saying that the river was the cause of the disease breaking out among the cattle, but I do think it was the means of its being so excessive as it was there. 5585. You think it intensified the disease very much Yes; I went down twice to look at the place, once with the superintendent of police, and - - --------- RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 171 once alone. Before I went down, I think it was in. the month of August of last year, he advised me to take my luncheon, for, he said, he was quite sure I should not be able to eat it when I arrived at the river side. We went down to the Thorpe Hall Pasture, which is about a mile down, and the river was in a very low state (I am referring now to August 1865, more than a year ago, to that dry season when the cattle plague was so bad here). On arriving at the mouth of the place where the sewage of Leeds is cast into the river, I certainly was very much astonished. 5586. Did you notice the character of the pollutions you found there?—I observed human excrements and carcases of dogs and cats, and I may say that I never saw anything so frightful in my life; every eddy of the stream was manifestly full of human excrements of the most terrible kind. 5587. What state is the river in at Castleford 2–1 have never been down there ; I have not been lower down than Swillington Bridge, that was the extent of our jurisdiction. 5588. Is your immediate residence near any part of the river ?–It is not near the river Aire ; I reside in Wharfedale near the river Wharfe, distant about nine miles from this place. 5589. Are you one of the visiting justices for the Wakefield house of correction ?–Yes. 5590. What system have you carried out there with reference to the drainage and sewerage of the prison; have waterclosets been introduced into any of the cells?–In a great many of them the old water- closets are in existence, these are connected with the main sewerage of the town of Wakefield, and are discharged in the ordinary way. Lately we have ordered a great many of Mr. Moule’s dry earth closets, and I have had many conversations with Captain Armitage, the governor of the gaol, upon the subject of them, and he, after a fair trial of them, considers them extremely valuable. He informs me that there is no smell in the cells, and he thinks that there will be no difficulty in carrying the system out in such an establishment as his. 5591. Is it the intention of the magistrates to give these earth closets a fair trial in their large gaol — The governor of the gaol informed me that they were going to make 800 of them, and to give them a fair trial. I believe they have made arrangements with the proprietor for the payment of a royalty so that they may manufacture them in the gaol. I received a letter from him the other day, in which he said, “We are hard at work making new earth closets.” 5592. Will you be kind enough to inform the magis- trates that the Commissioners will feel very much obliged if they will communicate to them their opinion of the result of the experiment –Yes; I will write to Captain Armitage on the subject. 5593. Are you acquainted with the upper part of the river Calder –Yes; I have some property there where the rivers are still quite pure; it is in the neigh- bourhood of Hebden Bridge, the streams are beautiful there, but there is a practice of throwing ashes in, and so getting rid of a nuisance in flood times. 5594. As a riparian owner, do you think it desirable that the rivers should be left in the state they are now in without any supervision whatever, persons being suffered to do just as they like -No ; I do not, for if they are left in their present state they will soon I think become choked up ; that is to say, unless the beds of the rivers are kept clear by artificial means, the present system of casting refuse in will raise the lower portions of the beds of the streams. 5595. Are there any ironworks or coal mines in the district near the river?—No ; there are cotton works. 5596. Are you acquainted with the streams that flow through Yorkshire generally *-Yes; with a great number of them. 5597. Do you know some of them in which it would be of no use to fish –Yes; the greater portion of them. 5598. Are there any other special points that you wish to speak upon –I observe that your instructions refer to the supply of water as well as to the state of the rivers. I reside close to the Arthington pumping station, where the present Leeds supply of water is obtained. The river Wharfe is another river which is rapidly deteriorating in quality on account of the increased number of manufactories at Otley, which communicate directly with the river. 5599. Have you heard complaints as to any injurious effects from the abstraction of water at the pumping station ?—We had a meeting at Wetherby of the landed proprietors last Wednesday, when that very matter was discussed, and we had an interview with Mr. Filliter, the surveyor of the borough of Leeds, and Alderman Carter, upon that very point, and our opinion was, that considering that Bradford has already obtained large powers for removal of water from the watershed of the Wharfe, and that Leeds was asking for additional powers, it behoved us to ascertain what the effect would be on the river Wharfe. 5600. You mean, I presume, the prospective effect of something that is proposed to be done?—Yes; I have never heard of any inconvenience being found from the existing abstraction of the water. 5601. Do you know "how much water the Leeds waterworks have power to abstract, have they not power to abstract 6,000,000 gallons —I do not think they have actually abstracted that quantity of water. 5602. It is proposed to abstract an additional quan- tity at some other point —They propose to go higher up to a tributary called the Washbourn, and from that to obtain a purer supply of water than they are able to obtain at present from the river itself, which bears along with it contaminations which have been gathered at Otley, Addingham, Post, and Burley. At present I believe they have been taking somewhere about 4,000,000 gallons, and their proposal is to take 8,000,000 gallons in addition to the 6,000,000 that they can take now, or in other words 14,000,000 gallons a day from the river Wharfe; the Washbourne is a very important tributary to the river Wharfe. 5603. What do you think will be the effect upon your streams and rivers if that scheme is carried out 2–The proprietors below think that if that quantity of water is taken away from the river it will subside into a mere inconsiderable stream ; it will be no longer a barrier between one estate and another, and great expense for fencing will have to be incurred; besides that we should have all the drainage of those places cast down the river, with a diminished supply of purer water than heretofore to dilute it. As we have seen the effect produced upon gentlemen's estates on the rivers below Leeds, we dread that a similar effect will be produced at some future time upon the property on the river Wharfe below Otley. Some of us, and I among the number, entertain no doubt that this matter of the supply of water to towns ought to be taken in hand, not by local authorities so much as by the Government, and that in fact water-supplying districts should be established in the same way that water removal districts are established in Bedfordshire and Lincolnshire where there is an excess of water at a low elevation. 5604. You mean the commissioners of sewers as they are termed 2–Yes. There are many large vil- lages besides the two boroughs of Bradford and Leeds which I believe are very inadequately supplied with water, while their populations are increasing rapidly, and it would be in my opinion a great saving of expense and a great benefit to a large number of persons if for those districts there was made one water supply, and if it were not left to individual towns to get large sup- plies and seize hold of the best, and have a monopoly of the supply of water. 5605. The supply of water is essential, Isuppose, for two purposes; first, for domestic use, and then for trade purposes?—Yes; but it is all the same water that is supplied ; it is all supplied by the same set of mains. 5606. Is that so?–Yes; it is so supplied by the authorities of Leeds, I believe, for manufacturing and for domestic purposes. LEEDS. F. Darwin, Esq. - 6 Nov. 1866. --- Y 2 172 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 5607. Is it the fact that country gentlemen would object most to a large volume being taken for trade purposes?—I cannot answer for others; I can only express my own feelings. Water supply to these large populations is an obvious necessity for domestic purposes, and for manufacturing purposes it may be deemed almost a necessity, under certain limitations. But landed proprietors may, and I think they do natu- rally feel it is a hardship that the water should be abstracted from their part of the country and should be sent into other districts where large profits are realized from it. 5608. Do you think country gentiemen set much store upon the ornamental water in their estates ?— Some of them do. 5609. Is it considered an advantage to have a fish- ing stream running through an estate 2–Yes, a very great advantage. 5610. As a matter of utility, or as a matter of beauty –As a matter of value ; the value of an estate on sale by auction would be greater if it had a trout stream running through it. 5611. The increase would be greater than the value of the fish to be caught in the water —Yes; it is like the value of a moor, or the game to be shot upon a moor in Scotland, and especially in these districts where persons are willing to give very large sums to obtain recreation within a reasonable distance. 5612. (Mr. Harrison.) Are manufactories springing up in the valley of the Wharfe —Not very rapidly; there are some, but there is no great increase of popu- lation. There has been hardly any in Wharfedale ; some manufactories have increased in size consider- ably, but there has not been much increase in number. 5613. Facility of obtaining coals has not encouraged them 2–A railway has only been carried up the valley about two months, so that the facility for obtaining coal has not yet arisen. 5614. Has the pollution in the river near to Ar- thington, from which the Leeds supply of water is obtained, increased ?–Yes; since I was a boy it has increased very much indeed ; I have known the river for 35 years. 5615. Do you think the pollution is increasing?— Yes; I may mention that the town of Otley, until within the last few years, was drained into cesspools, but within the last three or four years they have con- nected their drainage directly with the river, and there is a vast discharge into it; the tanning matter and the sewage of the town generally is now cast directly into the river, which formerly was kept out in the cesspools. The cesspools used to be cleaned out, and the contents applied to the land. Paper manufacturers have also contaminated the water very much. - 5616. Has that kind of pollution increased ?—The manufacture of paper, until the alteration of the tariff upon paper, had increased very rapidly, but since that time it has been stationary. 5617. Do they use Esparto grass to any extent in the manufacture of paper ?—I do not know ; but they have used immense quantities of rags, gathered from Ireland and Germany; and all these are washed in the water, and then the refuse water is turned into the river immediately. 5618. (Professor Way.) Is your knowledge of Otley, Burley, and other towns sufficient to enable you to say whether there is any land in their neighbourhood upon which sewage might be placed by irrigation ?–There is a rapid fall all down the Wharfe ; it is a river that falls rapidly, and below each town there is land that might be used for that purpose, but then there comes this difficulty, that nobody wants it. 5619. If legislation were to prohibit sewage being passed into the river, do you think land could be found to which it could be applied ?–There is no doubt of it, because the fall is so rapid that it could be ap- plied without the necessity of pumping; by taking a sewer down, there would be fall enough down the valley. I have tried frequently the plan which I have heard referred to, that of irrigating land with sewage water, and I have always found that where you have to pump it, and place it on land by artificial means, the process is not successful, because the cost is too high but when sewage could be placed without arti- ficial means on land, that is to say, when the fall admits of the sewage running on by gravitation, then the process was very successful. The expense of lifting, of conveying water in carts, is considerable. 5620. You do not, I suppose, doubt that the sewage of these towns might be made applicable to agriculture if the question of expense did not interfere 2–I have no doubt of it. Below the town of Otley there is some land that is particularly well adapted for it; the land is good, and it is a gravelly soil. In a very strong soil I doubt whether sewage will operate with any very great success, unless it is admirably drained ; I mean where there is a stagnation of the water in the clays. My reason for asking to be heard here to-day was, that having seen the river Aire in its dry and most filthy state, and being independent of any influ ence, I thought it right that the Commissioners should know what my opinion was ; and so strongly have I en- tertained the opinion I have expressed, that I communi- cated with the Home Secretary on the subject in 1865. He suggested that the local authorities of Thorpe Hall should be summoned, and should be required to take steps to remedy the evil. The local authorities, I believe, were represented by one individual, who un- fortunately then became bankrupt; and besides that, it was not likely that one small township could under- take to deodorize the sewage of so large a town as Leeds. I also communicated what I felt upon this subject to the authorities of Leeds. I thought it my duty to do so; and I said, supposing the cholera breaks out in this district virulently, people will say, natu- rally, why did you not represent this to the authorities 2 I did so, and then I thought that the responsibility no longer rested upon my shoulders. 5621. You have attended to give evidence here to-day with the view, so far as you may influence the Government, that something may be done to remedy the state of things you have described in future?—Yes; without something being done in the lower portions of the borough of Leeds, I fear that at some day or other there will be a very serious outbreak of disease. I cannot describe to you the smell of the river below Leeds, but if the wind was in the east it would bring it up to the town. The gas arising from below was bubbling up through thick black stuff; large bubbles of air were coming up in different direc- tions, and it was in truth so offensive that I was obliged to hold my handkerchief before my face. Some questions have been asked about cattle drinking water. I saw the cattle drinking the polluted water, although there runs through Thorpe Hall Pasture a brook which was uncontaminated. My impression was that the virulence of the disorder there, for it was the most virulent attack that we had in this district, arose from the cattle grazing near the water of the sewer and then drinking it; it is a very low lying district. 5622. Was it the fact or not that when the disease broke out there, the owners were prevented from removing their cattle?—Yes, they were, by order of the magistrates. We made an order, because it was feared that if the cattle were allowed to be spread over the district generally, we should have not only one place, but 50 places, visited by the disease. 5623. Did all the cattle perish on those meadows 2 —No, a great number of them were removed at night; the fences were broken through ; but in some of the places to which the cattle were removed the disease broke out. 5624. Did a large number of cattle perish in Thorpe Hall Pasture ?—Yes. 5625. How were the carcases disposed of; were they buried upon the spot where they died ?–Yes, they were buried in quick lime. I saw the places where I was told they had been buried. I was not present when any of them were buried. LEEDS. F. Darwin, Esq. 6 Nov. 1866. The witness withdrew. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 173 Mr. John Edward SMITH (Leeds) examined. 5626. (Chairman.) You are town clerk of the borough of Leeds 2—Yes. 5627. Under what Acts is the borough of Leeds governed?—Under the Municipal Corporations Act, and under Local Acts—it is not under the Local Government Act. 5628. You have recently consolidated the Local Government by an Improvement Act —Yes; in fact we have four Improvement Acts for the borough; the original Act was obtained in the year 1842, under which many improvements have been effected, and, among other things, the sewerage of the borough was improved. Under the next Act, the Improvement Act of 1848, a system of main sewerage was formed. Under that Act of 1848 a main sewer was authorized to be formed, and emptied into the river Aire. 5629. Opposite the meadows of which we have heard?—Precisely so, at the Thorpe Hall pastures; the place is called Knostrop. 5630. What are the principal trades carried on in the borough of Leeds?—The cloth trade is the original staple trade of Leeds; but we have added a great many "more trades which have risen to very great importance. The iron trade in its various branches is now perhaps equal, if not superior to the cloth trade. In addition to that you have the leather trade in its various branches, from tanning up to the extreme preparation of the leather; and I am able to say, from information collected some time ago, that Leeds is the largest seat of the leather trade in the United Kingdom, London not excepted. 5631. About what number of hides annually can be tanned in Leeds 2—From information which I have collected I have found that 1,700,000 hides and skins were prepared in the borough of Leeds in one year. 5632. What year was that ?—It was the year 1864. 5633. Have you reason to believe that it is now less or more than that –I have very good reason to believe that that trade is on the increase. 5634. Do you know what becomes of the considera- ble amount of refuse produced by tanning, spent bark, and refuse tan water?—From my own knowledge I can say that a great deal of that water is poured into a beck which we have, called Sheepscar Beck, which empties itself into the river Aire. 5635. In your recent Improvement Act have you any restrictive clauses which will prevent the pollution of the river by that tan refuse?—No ; we obtained an Act of Parliament in the last session for the improve- ment of these becks, but that improvement simply consists of paving of the bottom and sides of the beck so as to assist the flow and prevent accumulation of refuse. 5636. That would be to prevent the becks accumu- lating the deposit, but to pass whatever deposit goes in on to the main river ?—Yes. 5637. Leaving to chance its getting away from there?—Yes; in fact leaving the state of things in that respect as it was before. 5638. Is the river navigable up to and past Leeds —Yes. 5639. Is it under the jurisdiction of a company or a board —Yes; they are called, I believe, the under- takers of the Aire and Calder Navigation. - 5640. Do they dredge the river opposite Leeds – I believe so, that is as far as I can say. 5641. In Leeds you have an inspector of nui- sances —Yes. 5642. You have street scavengers?—Yes. 5643. Do you know whether your inspector of nuisances takes cognizance of floating carcases in the river Aire, opposite Leeds or below it —-He does not. 5644. Your scavengers have no authority to take out and bury those carcases?—No. 5645, Are you aware whether those carcases cause a nuisance during hot weather in summer ?—I cannot say that I have had any complaint made to me upon that subject; I heard what Mr. Darwin stated ; I heard that the condition of the river at Knostrop had been complained of. 5646. You do not, I suppose, take pleasant summer walks down by the banks of the river ?–No, I am not in the habit of going down there. 5647. You have gasworks in Leeds –Yes. 5648. Are they in the hands of the corporation, or of a company ?—They are in the hands of two rival companies. 5649. You have waterworks in Leeds P-Yes. 5650. Do the waterworks belong to a company, or ſo the corporation ?—They belong to the corporation ; they originally belonged to a waterworks company, and they have been transferred to the corporation. 5651. When did the transfer take place –In the year 1852. 5652. By agreement and purchase ?—By agreement and purchase confirmed by Act of Parliament. 5653. Then at present the water supply is in the hands of the corporation ?—Yes. 5654. Is the present supply considered a satisfactory supply, as regards volume and quality ?–It cannot be said to be considered a satisfactory supply, for we are going to Parliament in the next session for a larger and a purer supply of water. 5655. I assume that we shall have that scheme stated to us by one of your engineers ?—Not the details, but general information respecting it can be afforded. We expect to be opposed on the scheme. 5656. You are aware that by the tenor of our instructions we are authorized and expected to inquire into water supply —Yes. 5657. But you as legal adviser of the corporation will necessarily stand in the gap and will protect the corporation from any undue exposure of that respect- ing which you will have to contend over again in another place —Just so. 5658. Then if we ask either you or any of the officials questions which you think ought not to be answered, an intimation to that effect will stop us. Have you commenced to put in operation the clauses which you obtained in your last Improvement Act with regard to your Local Government –Yes; under that Act we have amalgamated the powers of the highway surveyors which were previously vested in different boards in various townships; the highways now are vested in the corporation, and will be repaired out of a general rate extending over the whole of the borough. 5659. Do you know whether there are any undedi- cated private streets which are not sewered or paved 2 —Yes, many in the borough yet remain to be done ; we are going on fast with the work, but yet many remain to be done. 5660. Leeds, I assume, has been a growing town— it has grown rapidly –Very much so. 5661. Is it growing now ; is much building going on 2–1 should say that it is growing very rapidly. 5662. The town council have submitted to them for approval the plans of buildings before they are erected 2–Yes; we have enlarged powers as to those matters under the new Improvement Act, to which I have referred. 5663. Have you a local building surveyor appointed in the borough of Leeds —Yes. 5664. It is his duty to inspect and to see that the buildings are in conformity with your byelaws or regulations —Yes, he is called the buildings inspector. 5665, How long have you had such an officer – Several years, I cannot speak exactly to the time. Y 5666. Have you a medical officer of health 2– eS. 5667. How long has he been appointed ?– He was appointed under the new Improvement Act to which I have referred ; he has only been appointed two or three months. 5668. Is the appointment considered a temporary, or annual appointment, or a permanent appointment: —A permanent appointment, LEEDS. Mr. .J. E. Smith. 6 Nov. 1866. Y 3 174 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, LEEDS. Mr. J. E. Smith. 6 Nov. 1866. 5669. Have any complaints to your knowledge been brought before the town council as to the polluted state of becks and streams flowing into and through Leeds –Yes, the polluted state of the becks, including the Sheepscar Beck to which I have referred, led to the Act of Parliament which was passed last session for their improvement ; it led to the subject being brought before the council. - 5670. The pollutions were sufficiently obnoxious to induce the council to be at the cost and risk of a New Improvement Bill —Yes. The Act to which I am referring for the improvement of the becks, was a separate Act from the General Improvement Act; we procured two Acts, 5671. Are there manufactories situated upon these becks and streams beyond the boundaries of the borough of Leeds —Yes, but not to any great extent; probably one or two. 5672. Is the river Aire polluted above the town of Leeds, by pollution from towns and manufactories —I should say so. Within my recollection the river above the town seems very much to have deteriorated. 5673. There are towns situated upon the Aire above Leeds –Yes. 5674. In the event of Leeds carrying out its im- provements to the utmost, and seeking to purify the river, would it result as a matter of course that the other towns would follow so good an example 2–No, I think not, without the same compulsion being put upon them as might be put upon Leeds. 5675. Then do you consider that the operation of any restrictive clauses against river pollution from either solids or fluids should be commensurate with the river's area rather than be confined to individual and separate towns —I do. 5676. What are the clauses in your last improve- ment Act which refer to the improvement of the becks in the borough of Leeds 2—I unfortunately have not the Act to which I refer. I will hand it in to you. 5677. Will the work of paving the becks at the bottom and the sides be done at the cost of the riparian owners, or out of a general rate to be levied upon property in the district, or out of the borough rate 2–It will be out of the improvement rate. 5678. Will that improvement rate be levied upon the whole borough 2–No, but upon the townships in which the becks are situated. 5679. Then you have powers to levy district rates? –Yes. 5680. In addition to powers which enable you to carry out works, have you power to prevent the abusing of the rivers, or to prosecute persons who abuse them —No. 5681. Does the Act give you the power to prevent sewage or effete matter from privies or cesspools being thrown in 2–No. We have powers already for that purpose under the Nuisances Removal Act; but it is an objection to those powers, that you have to state that the premises are a nuisance or injurious to health, and you have to proceed against the persons who cause that nuisance. Of course in some cases it is very difficult to arrive at the real wrong-doers, as there may be many. 5682. You say that there are two companies making gas —Yes. 5683. Are their works situated within the popu- lous parts of the borough, or are they in the suburban parts —They are within the populous parts of the borough. 5684. The works are built round 2–Yes. 5685. Have you any power to interfere with the accumulation of refuse upon their premises?–Only under the general powers given by the General Act of Parliament. 5686. Have you ever any complaints against the accumulation of refuse at the gasworks –No, I never heard any. 5687. Have you had the question of sewage utiliza- tion brought before you ?–It has never been formally brought before the council; it has been considered once or twice by the streets and sewerage committee of the council, and they have always found very great difficulty in dealing with it. - 5688. Are waterclosets general throughout Leeds in the dwellings of the working classes or not ?–No, they are not general in the dwellings of the working classes. - 5689. In the hotels, and first class houses, and large offices, I assume that you have waterclosets? —They are pretty general there. 5690. You have waterclosets throughout this town hall —Yes. 5691. Do the borough authorities scavenge the town, do they take charge of emptying cesspools and cesspits of private houses –We do within certain parts of the borough, within the municipal townships; namely, Leeds, Hunslet, and Holbeck. 5692. Was that restriction established because you had not jurisdiction over the other townships ?—No, simply because of the difficulty of going into the out townships, on account of the great area of this borough. 5693. Is it a profitable or a losing transaction ?–I am sorry to say that with us it is a losing transaction. 5694. I suppose that you furnish your accounts annually?—Yes. 5695. Have you a debtor and creditor account with regard to the emptying of cesspools or ashpits 2– Yes. 5696. Can you show us the amount of contents removed, the cost of removal, and the profit, if any, from the sale of refuse –No, we let it by contract. 5697. I suppose that the contractor can give us those details?—I do not suppose that he can ; I believe that the inspector of nuisances will be able to give you information upon that point. - 5698. Has the question ever been discussed in the town council as to the utility of introducing water- closets as a substitute for privies 2–No, it has not been formally discussed. 5699. Your medical officer of health will perhaps be able to give us the local mortality of Leeds for the last eight or 10 years?—He probably will have the returns by him ; he has only just been appointed. 5700. Have you the mortality returns —No, but I think that we can furnish you from the Nusiance Office with some returns as to the mortality of Leeds. 5701. Have you any clauses in your new Act restricting smoke P-We have clauses in the new Act as to smoke, but they are substantially the same as those which were in one of our previous Acts, except a little modification for the benefit of the iron trade and the dyeing trade. 5702. An attempt I think was made by a portion of the council to get more stringent clauses which the council as a body neither opposed nor defended : did those clauses stand or fall?–An attempt was made by some of the inhabitants of the borough who presented a petition to that effect when the bill was passing, and the clauses were obtained, with the slight modification to which I have referred, for the pro- tection of the iron trade and the dyeing trade. 5703. Have you attempted to put in force any of the clauses 2–Yes. 5704. Have you a smoke inspector –We have a smoke inspector, and we regularly put in force these provisions. One of the modifications to which I have referred is that no means for the consumption of smoke created by processes either of the dyeing or the iron trade are to be deemed practicable unless it is proved that the same have been successfully applied in similar processes in actual operation, and have been used for 12 months in similar processes. 5705. With regard to the steel trade, I think that one of your aldermen, namely, Aldermen Kitson, is putting up new works in which the process known as Mr. Seaman's process by gas is to be tried ?–So I understand. The witness withdrew. - RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 1 Mr. THoMAs FENWICK (Leeds) examined, 5706. (Chairman.) Are you a surveyor and engi- neer —Yes. 5707. Have you had considerable practice as a sanitary engineer —I have. 5708. For how many years?—For about 16 years or upwards. 5709. I think that a good many years ago you assisted a Government inspector in the north of Eng- land in some inquiries into several large towns there * —Yes; I had the pleasure and advantage of assisting you in inquiries which you made at Alnwick, Berwick, Morpeth, and North Shields, and other places. 5710. And Gateshead 2–Yes. 5711. And Newcastle –Yes. 5712. Since that period you have been borough engineer for North Shields?—I was borough engineer for Tynemouth and North Shields from 1851 to 1861 ; I then came to reside in Leeds. 5713. You have had, I believe, considerable expe- rience since your residence in Leeds in devising and carrying out systems of land drainage —My partner, Mr. Martin, and I are the engineers for the Aire- dale Drainage Commissioners. Previously to entering upon that subject I will lay before you a plan showing the rivers Aire and Wharfe. This plan shows the Wharfe and its tributaries, and the Aire and its tribu- taries, till it joins the Ouse. The Aire here (pointing to the plan) runs into the Ouse, and they together form the Humber. On this plan I have marked all the mill weirs and other dams which are placed on the river Aire, and I have a description of them, with their distances from the junction with the Ouse, and the height of each weir above the sea. (The witness read two papers, which will be found printed at the end of his evidence.) 5714. Have you had an opportunity of gauging the river at any special point, and if so under what con- ditions, and on what occasion ?—I had occasion to observe the rise of the floods with reference to the cuts proposed to be made within the district, and I took some observations at different points. The highest flood that I have observed at any time since 1861 showed a flow over the weir at Stock Bridge of 7,670,000 cubic feet in an hour. I have heard of occasional floods very much greater than that; one gentleman who has taken some trouble in inquiring into the rainfall of that district has stated that a quantity equal to about five times that amount has been known to pass down. I cannot say how far he may be correct; but I have no doubt that floods very much larger than the one alluded to have passed down the river, although this is the greatest which I have seen, and it has been considered a very high one. 5715. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the date of that flood P-November 1861. 5716. (Chairman.) Do you know by any gauging, or observation, what was the dry weather flow at that point 2–Yes; the minimum flow which I have observed was 67,000 cubic feet in the hour. 5717. Was that after continued dry weather, or very dry weather?—In ordinary dry weather ; after per- haps a month or six weeks of fair weather. The high flood was in November 1861, and the summer flow which I observed was in 1862. This is the Parliamen- tary plan of the district between Leeds and Skipton, and on it I have marked the several works (producing the same). This weir (pointing to the plan) has been removed, and the surface water has been reduced about four feet. This work near Elam (pointing to the plan) is now in course of construction. There was a great accumulation of gravel at Holden Beck, which was brought down the stream in heavy floods, and caused the water in the Aire to be dammed back; that has been taken out, and we have consequently been enabled to improve the fall as far as here. The most important thing was to get the surface water reduced, so as not to have the lands flooded in ordinary times. All the parts tinted blue used to be covered at every ordinary flood; in some parts the land lies so low that necessarily when floods come the water is dammed 7 5 - LEEDS. up in the drains, and lies upon a certain portion Mr.Trººz. of the land ; yet as soon as the river subsides that water flows off, and none of it continues to lie upon the land as it formerly did. Previously to 1861, whenever a great flood came upon the land in this way it was many weeks before it went off. At several places along the valley the ordinary surface water was standing so high between the artificial flood banks, that a great deal of the land adjoining it was below the level of the river water. At this place (pointing to the plan) lead washings and accumulations, of gravel have had to be taken out. Generally throughout the district the river is lowered about four feet. At one place we lowered the water nearly seven feet (pointing out the same). Here is some land which previously to the works being commenced had an annual value of only 3s. an acre, and since that work has been made the flood has never overflowed the land as it did formerly. A portion of the land (pointing out the same) is now under tillage. This section (producing the same) shows the fall which has been obtained by the works. The upper blue line is the ordinary level of the water previously to the works being commenced ; the lower line is now the ordinary level of surface water, and the red line is the former flood line ; and it shows that in many parts of the valley the ordinary surface water was actually above the level of the land, and when a flood came it spread over to the extent which is shown on the plan. 5718. (Professor Way.) How far do you imagine that that alteration affects the drainage of the land 2–It does not affect the drainage of the land much beyond what is coloured blue. The land rises steeply from this point (pointing to the plan) so that beyond this the valley is very well drained. The cause of the stoppage here (pointing to the plan) was principally the gravel, which was brought down Eastburn beck by floods. At this point (pointing out the same) there had been an accumulation of at least 8 feet, and by making this cut, there was an immediate relief to the extent of nearly 7 feet. We have found by experience that it does not pay the Commissioners to make land by filling up the old channel. They convey the bed of the river to the adjoining proprietor, and he or his tenants gradually make land of it. I have no doubt that in course of time the whole of the abandoned channel will be made into useful land. - 5719. (Mr. Harrison.) When did you obtain that Act of Parliament 2–In 1861. 5720. What is the area of the land which was subject to flooding 2—About 2,300 acres. 5721. What is the fall in the river ?—Within the drainage district it is about 3 feet per mile. The height above the sea at Stock Bridge, near Keighley, is 270 feet, and at the upper end of the district it is 309 feet ; there is 39 feet rise in that distance, which is about 10 miles in a straight line, and about 14 miles by the river; 12% miles by the improved river course. From Inghey Bridge to Airton Mill, a distance of eight miles and nearly a-half, the fall is 216 feet—the land beyond that point rises rapidly. 5722. What is the fall per mile from Keighley downwards 2—For a distance of 10 miles downwards there is a fall of 95 feet. 5723. So that the district which you have improved was a comparatively flat district – Yes; lying between Keighley and a point above Skipton. * The part above Skipton falling very rapidly? — LeS. 5725. And the part below Keighley falling very rapidly –Yes. Immediately below our district there is a mill weir called Castleford Mill Weir, and it dams the water back, and causes a good deal of the injury of which a previous witness, Mr. Ferrand, spoke. 5726. I presume that it was the peculiarity of the district, the fact of its being so very level, as compared with that above or below, which determined the limits of the improvement 2–It was. 5727. Has the improvement made had the effect mentioned by Mr. Ferrand, namely, of expediting flood 6 Nov. 1866. -- Y 4 176 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. - Mr. T. Fenwick. --- 6 Nov. 1866. waters and flooding land below Keighley 2–It causes the water to pass off much more rapidly than it did before, but the effect, so far as I have been able to judge, is that instead of causing the lands below to be more flooded, it prevents the water from rising so high as it formerly did. In consequence of the increased fall the water passes away much more rapidly. In this district between Keighley and Skipton it has not time to accumulate as it formerly did. Previously to the cuts being made, the water was impounded during floods, behind the artificial banks on both sides of the river, and when heavy rains continued after these reservoirs were full, the volume of water due to the rainfall was increased by the escape of that which had been impounded during the early part of the flood ; the accumulated water behind the banks found its way out through numerous cloughs into the river, and the effect was that the lands below were subject to floods, which now I think they have got rid of to a certain extent. 5728. Then you do not agree with Mr. Ferrand in that respect 2—I do not. 5729. In making those alterations, what arrange- ment did you make as to the boundary 2—The Act specified a district between a certain point below Stock Bridge and Inghey.Bridge above Skipton, without regard to the parishes; it was a district which was referenced in the Parliamentary plans, and the com- missioners have power over the whole of that district; the district practically is confined to the portion of the land which was affected by floods. 5730. If you make a short cut so as to shorten the length of the river, the boundary of the parish remains the same P-Yes. 5731. Those streams which you mentioned as bringing down a large quantity of gravel will con- tinue to do so unless you prevent it; do you see your way to preventing it 2–Yes; we have constructed lodges for the purpose of intercepting the gravel; large bodies of gravel are brought down by these streams now as before. We inspected the course of some of these tributaries, and we found that the expense of intercepting the gravel above would be very enormous, and that the relief so obtained would be only temporary, and we resolved upon forming those lodges within our own district, to be cleaned out when required ; we have never yet had occasion to clean them out, but it will require ultimately to be done. Three gravel traps have been formed on Eastburn beck. 5732. Of what extent are they –About an acre and a half, or, including land for spoil, about three acres. 5733. Of course it destroys that quantity of land for the time being 2–Yes, but they are formed in the channel of the beck itself. 5734. Is it the case that the proprietors of land who were the prime movers in this improvement have experienced the disadvantage of allowing the river to be filled up by the gravel naturally brought down by these becks to such an extent that they have made traps to prevent the gravel in future being carried into the river ?—The commissioners made those traps; they bought of the owner the land which was neces- sary to make them, and these lodges remain the pro- perty of the commissioners. The commissioners appointed under the Act were 18 in number. The number of commissioners in office is not to be less than 16 nor to exceed 21. 5735. You have heard from Mr. Ferrand that the inhabitants of Keighley throw largely their ashes and refuse into the beck 2–Yes. 5736. And that those ashes collect in the bed of the river Aire, and have necessarily raised the bed 2– Yes, that is quite correct, and the same practice has been pursued throughout the district. We have complained about its being done, but the mill- owners near to Keighley and at Sutton have continued the practice. 5737. The effect would be to re-form artificially that dam which you have removed for the improve- ment above —Yes; they have partially caused the obstructions which we have had to remove at the expense of the commissioners. 5738. The process now going on in the lower part of the river at Keighley, and other places, of raising the bed of the river by cinders and other matters, is something similar to the formation of gravel beds which you have been at a considerable expense to prevent in the upper part of the river ?–It is quite a similar thing though the injury perhaps will not be to the same extent. 5739. Still that is merely a question of extent 2– Yes, it is the same mischief, and it is a thing which ought to be put a stop to. We found that some mill- owners had been in the habit of throwing their refuse into the becks which came into the river, and were the cause of mischief, and we endeavoured to put a stop to it ; but we found that they were beyond the limits of the drainage district, and we could not touch them. It would be most desirable to have some power to pre- vent such things being done, for they inflict injury upon the river and upon all who have land adjoining it. The improvement in many parts of the valley has been very striking ; marshy parts have been improved, and within a few years will command a high rental. But the benefits which have been conferred by the works ought not to be entirely measured by that, because it is a fact that from year to year the valley was getting rapidly worse, in fact in a few years the marsh land, which existed in portions only of the dis- trict, would have extended throughout the whole valley. The landowners were satisfied that the land was becoming daily worse, and in a short time they would have had very many acres which would have been comparatively worthless. 5740. (Chairman.) Do you know any other districts of Yorkshire where similar improvements might be made with corresponding benefits 2–I could not Specify any places. There are many districts in Yorkshire where low lands are flooded. - 5741. What is the name of the district where the railway to Newcastle is occasionally put under water? —That is somewhere near Darlington—at Morden Carrs; works are now being executed there which I think will have the effect of relieving it altogether. 5742. Is that by a commission or under an Act of Parliament —I think not ; I think that some of the principal landowners, Lord Eldon and others, are carrying the work out. 5743. There is another district on the London and North-western Railway between Stafford and Crewe ? —I do not know that. 5744. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you agree with Mr. Ferrand that it would have been desirable to have had an improvement of the river carried out throughout its entire length, and that it should not have been con- fined to a portion ?—Perhaps it would have been well to have had the powers of the commissioners extended over a larger district, but there was not the same in- ducement for them to enter into the improvement of the lands below as there was in this special district. 5745. There was a large area of land in this dis- trict which was subject to floods, and there was not a similar area below, so that it was not equally the interest of riparian owners below to join with you ?— Just so. It may have been that if the owners below had joined these gentlemen, whose names are in this Act, a larger district might have been included in this Act. But the improvement of the valley is not con- fined to the improvement of the land ; it has also had a beneficial effect upon the health of the district. 5746. How can you prove that 2–I have a letter from Dr. McNab who has a large practice in that district, and he writes as follows (reading the same): This improvement has not been merely a landowner's ques- tion, but has been productive of important sanitary results, and it has been argued by some of the land- owners that the cost of the works ought partly to have been defrayed by a rate upon the inhabitants on account of the improvement as a sanitary measure, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 177 5747. (Chairman.) As well as by a rate upon the land 2–Yes; I may also observe that where the new cuts have been made the river has been very much shortened. 5748. (Mr. Harrison.) You heard Mr. Ferrand's objection that by the improvements you had taken away so many miles of the river ?–Yes; it has given landowners an opportunity of making land of what was before river, and has shortened the course of the I’lver. 5749. How do you conceive that that in any way can injure the millowners below —I do not conceive it to be possible that they can prove any damage. 5750. (Chairman.). You have not made the water less in volume 2—Certainly not. 5751. (Professor Way.) Mr. Ferrand spoke as if you had diverted the water —That is not so, it is carried down by the new cuts more quickly than before. 5752. He says that its flow is not so regular, that it was formerly kept back by the tortuous course and that the water was therefore diffused more equally * —I do not think that there is any objection in that respect to what has been done. 5753. (Mr. Harrison.) I presume that if what was călled the Lake district was covered with water for several months in the year, it was a large reservoir for the benefit of the mills below, and gave off the water quietly for months and months?—It did. 5754. So far, what has been done may have injured the water power, but there was certainly no excuse for keeping up that state of things?–The public. certainly had no interest in allowing such a state of things to remain.—I have some statistics of rainfall for which I am indebted to Mr. Henry Cowper Marshall, of Derwent Island, to the Rev. Mr. Daniell, of Broughton, and to Mr. Brown, of Skipton. The tables show that in the summer months, from March to September, the per-centage of the total rainfall in Leeds is 60 per cent, and in the five winter months 40 per cent., whereas at Keswick the reverse is the case; in the summer months it is 47, while in the winter months it is nearly 53 per cent. I have here the rainfall for 20 years at Holbeck giving an average of 21-91 inches; at Keswick it is 58°38 inches and at Seathwaite it is 139 inches. The average of five years at Settle is 40:64 inches; at Arncliffe, in Wharfdale it is 58' 22 inches, and at Otley it is 27°43 inches. I have the rainfall for 1865 at several places, which will afford a comparison between the Aire and the Wharfe valleys. 5755. By what means have you arrived at the gaugings of the minimum and the maximum flow of water P-From observations on the Stock Bridge Well’. 5756. When there was a flood was there a good fall from the upper to the lower side of the weirº– Yes, there was a sufficient fall—probably 18 inches. When there was 10 feet rise in the river, in the flat portions of the valley there would be a diminution of about 3 feet 3 inches in the fall over the weir. 5757. How many miles above is that flat –A short distance above there is one of the flat places—about two miles above. In a flood which rose 2 feet 3 inches on the weir at Stock Bridge, there would be a rise of 7 feet 6 inches in the river 2 miles higher up. At Carlton Bridge, near Skipton, the difference of level was 10 feet 3 inches during the same flood in November 1861. I have a section showing the flood level between Keighley and Skipton, and in some other parts of the valley a similar difference in level is shown. 5758. What is the minimum ?—The minimum over the weir was about an inch and a quarter. 5759. What is the length of the weir 2–About 170 feet. 5760. (Chairman.) Have you gone through your memoranda 2–I have tables here of the rainfall which I will hand in to you. 5761. Are there any other facts which you would wish to bring before the Commission ?—Some ob- servations have been made about the state of the water below Leeds. There are some pastures just below here called the Thorpe Hall pastures, and on them there happened to be a great deal of the cattle plague last year. I do not know whether the disease might have been aggravated or induced by the state of the water, but certainly at that place river water was very unfit for cattle to drink. 5762. And the atmosphere was very foul ?—Yes, for a considerable distance below that spot. 5763. And the land is very flat, and liable to be flooded ?–Yes. 5764. (Mr. Harrison.) How far is Thorpe Hall meadow below the outfall of the sewer 2–It is imme- diately below Leeds. 5765. Was the cattle plague severe immediately at the mouth of the sewer –It was very bad on the Thorpe Hall pastures, it was almost like a plague spot; a cordon was put round about there, and the cattle were confined to it. 5766. Are the Thorpe Hall pastures conveniently situated, and suitable for sewage irrigation ?—They might be so treated. 5767. (Professor Way.) In the upper district of the river is there land suitable for sewage irrigation near to the different towns —The meadows which were formerly covered by these floods might to a certain extent be irrigated by the sewage from the villages. 5768. Have you paid any attention to the question of sewage irrigation?—I have paid some attention to it. I made an experiment on a small scale near North Shields. I built a sewage tank there for the Duke of Northumberland, to receive the sewage from a small village, and my experience of sewage irriga- tion is that where it has been tried and has failed, and where, as in the case of farmers, an outcry has been made against it, the failure has perhaps been more attributable to the want of proper dilution than to anything else. In this case there was a stream of water running, which flowed into the tank along with the sewage. I had the tank so constructed that the first compartment received the solid matter, and after depositing there the liquid portion flowed into a settling well, from which the water flowed down com- paratively pure, and portions of the land were irri- gated from this source by the farmers, but they were neglectful of the advantage which was open to them— they did not carry it out to any great extent—but upon the small piece of land which they did irrigate the benefit was at once apparent from the increase of grass, and there they might have got two crops for one in any other part of the land. The proper dis- posal of the sewage of towns is in my opinion a very difficult question, and one not satisfactorily answered yet. That, and the supply of water to towns, are two of the most important questions of the day. 5769. (Mr. Harrison.) Is the refuse from the lead mines found to be a nuisance at all 2–Not further, I think, than causing a discoloration of the river below Cononley. 5770. (Professor Way.) Do they work them now * —I think that they do to a certain extent. (The wit- - mess delivered in certain plans.) The witness withdrew. PAPER read and put in by THOMAS FENWICK, Esq., C.E. (referred to supra Question 5713). The Airedale Drainage Act, 1861, embraces a district in the valley of the river Aire, extending from Inghey Bridge, about three miles west of Skipton, to a short distance below Stock Bridge, near Keighley. 17159.-2, This district suffered greatly from frequent inundations arising from natural amp artificial obstructions in the bed of the river, which penned up the water to such an extent that a large tract of land on both sides of the river had become Z LEEDS. Mr. T. Fenwick. 6 Nov. 1866. 178 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. IEEDS. Mr.T. Fenwick. 6 Nov. 1866. little better than a marsh, many acres of which were con- tiunally submerged, even when the river was at its lowest summer level. - - - To remedy this state of things the principal landowners in the valley applied for and obtained the Act of 1861, which enabled them to straighten the course of the river, remove obstructions in the channel (consisting principally of a mill weir at Stock Bridge, and large accumulations of gravel and mill refuse brought down by the various becks in times of flood and deposited in the river channel), raise flood banks and otherwise improve the river course. Power was also given by the Act to make all necessary drainage works and improve existing drains within the district, and to determine which (if any) should be public drains to be made and maintained by the Commissioners, and which should be private drains. The Commissioners appointed under the Act were 18 in number, namely: His Grace the Duke of Devonshire, Sir Richard Tufton, Baronet; Admiral Russell Eliott, Sir Charles R. Tempest, Baronet; George Lane Fox, Matthew Wilson, John Robert Tennant, George Drewry, Thomas Kell, Frederick Greenwood, John Benson Sedgwick, Stephen Eddy, John Robinson, John Greenwood Sugden, Abraham Maud, Binns Smith, James Smith, and James Slingsby. The number of Commissioners in office not to be less than 16 nor to exceed 21. Immediately after the passing of the Act, measures were adopted for carrying it into effect, and the principal works authorized have now been executed. Between Stock Bridge (near Keighley) and Skipton the ordinary surface water has been lowered on an average throughout of about 4 feet. At one part of the river below Kildwick Bridge it has been lowered 6 feet 6inches, and a large tract of land in that locality, which was comparatively worthless, has now become valuable land, and is partly under tillage. Portions of the low lands are yet occasion- ally laid under water in high floods, but the water passes off as soon as the river subsides, and does not remain on the land as it formerly did for weeks together. Many acres of land which before the passing of the Act, was not worth more than 3s. per acre to rent is now excellent grazing land, and in a few years will be worth from 21. to 3!, per acre. The improvement manifested throughout the valley in so short a time is very striking and satisfactory; and although the cost of obtaining the Act was exceedingly heavy, owing to the unexpected opposition it met with before the Com- mittee of the House of Commons, the permanent improve- ment in the land, it is believed, will give a profitable return upon the outlay; but the benefits derived from the works are not to be measured only by the actual improvement which has taken place. The lower parts of the valley were rapidly assuming a marshy character and would in a short time have been much more seriously depreciated in value. The total expenditure will be about 25,000l., and the area of the district directly benefited by the works is 2,300 acres, so that the average cost of the improvement is about 111, per acre. The money has been borrowed under the authority of the Act of Parliament, and rates are levied on the land within the district to pay off capital and interest in about 20 years. But another important feature in this case is the removal of miasma from the marshy districts about Kildwick, Cross Hills, Cononley, &c., and its effect upon the health of the inhabitants of those villages. On this subject we have a communication from Dr. Macnab, who has resided 12 years at Cross Hills (about midway between Skiptonand Keighley), and has an exten- sive practice in that district, he writes as follows: “The various villages in close proximity to the Aire— “ Bradley, Cononley, Farnhill, Kildwick, Cross Hills, and “ Steeton—with most of their inhabitants are well known “ to me. I have no hesitation in saying, to whatever “ cause we may attribute it, the state of these villagesin a “ sanitary point of view has greatly improved within the “ last few years. Whereas, in days gone by, the first five “ villages were considered the habitat of typhus fever. “ during the last two years there has not been a case of “ fever in one, except in Cononley last winter, when one “whole family suffered, and the disease was caught at “ Idle or Apperley Bridge (villages a few miles distant). “ Formerly also bronchitis and rheumatism were much “ more frequent here than they have been lately. “It is perhaps unfair to give the Airedale Drainage all “ the credit of this very obvious improvement, knowing as “we do that in localities this type of disease changes. I think, however, we are quite justified in giving to the drainage a fair share of it all. I remember well, before the drainage, almost the whole valley from Keighley up “ to Skipton, more especially that part from Kildwick to Cononley and upwards, was generally covered with “ water for four or five winter months. We used to call “ it the “Lake district.” A part of the Skipton Road “ between Kildwick and Cononley, was frequently covered with water up to the horses' girths. Now, close by the roadside, at what was the worst place, stand a mill and several cottages. “In the months of March and April, when the flooded land began to re-appear, there was a dreadful smell occasioned by the offensive alluvial matter, the rotting of grass, &c. This, I have no doubt, was one cause of “ fever, poisoning, as it did, the atmosphere. The extreme “ dampness of the atmosphere, the mists and fogs arising “ from such a breadth of superficially diffused water, were, “I think, the cause, to some extent, of bronchitis, rheu- “ matism, &c.” The Airedale Drainage has, therefore, nor been merely a landowners’ question, but has been productive of important sanitary results; and it has been argued that the cost of the works ought to have been partly defrayed by a rate levied upon the inhabitants of this part of the valley as well as upon the land actually relieved from flood. Where new cuts have been made the course of the river has been materially shortened. We are at present making a new cut a short distance above Keighley. The channel thus formed will be only 217 yards in length, and will occupy an acre and a quarter of ground in substitution of the old river course, 1,760 yards long, occupying an area of more than seven acres. The first cut that was made is below Silsden Bridge. It is 300 yards in length and oc- cupies an acre and an half. The abandoned portion of the river course at this place was 1,144 yards long, having an area of 4} acres; other cuts have been made which have shortened the river course, but not to such an extent, and we do not find it pay to make new land of the abandoned channel by leading spoil to fill it up. The principal advantage lies in obtaining an increased fall by shortening the distance. « « -- <-- « -- (Signed) THos. FENwick. PAPER read and put in by THOMAS FENwick, Esq., C.E. (referred to supra Question 5713.) The river Aire takes its rise below Malham Tarn about five miles east of Settle, and in its course south-eastward to Leeds is fed by the following streams, namely: Otterburn beck, Broughton beck. Carlton beck, through the village of Carlton. Eller beck, bearing with it the sewage and mill waste of Skipton. Bradley beck. Cononley beck, charged with the lead-washings from the Duke of Devonshire's lead mines near Cononley. Eastborne beck, down which are carried immense quan- tities of gravel besides refuse thrown in from the mills at Sutton. Steeton and Silsden becks, which drain the villages so named. Holden beck. The river Worth into which is discharged the sewage of Keighley and the refuse of numerous mills in the Haworth valley. The Bradford beck, which is the common sewer of Brad- ford and Shipley with their numerous mills and manu- factories. And the no less filthy streams which flow into it through the town of Leeds. Manufactories have largely increased in the valley of the Aire and the river near Leeds has consequently assumed all the foul characteristics of a great sewer. Yet so lately as 1841 the town obtained its water supply by pumping from the river at Leeds bridge. Until within the last few years, above Shipley (where the sewage from Bradford falls into it) the stream was compara- tively pure, but the increase of manufactories at Keighley, Skipton, and other places, has quite changed its character in that respect. Four years ago there was not much pollution in the river below Skipton untilitreached Cononley beck where it became partially whitened by the lead-washings carried down that * stream, but the recent establishment of dyeworks at Skipton and the extension of the sewerage works in that town have destroyed its comparative purity. In dry weather the smell from these causes is quite perceptible two miles below Skipton. Below Bradford the river is exceedingly foul and for several miles below Leeds the smell from it is most offensive. At Castleford it is joined by the river Calder highly charged with the sewage of Wakefield, Dewsbury, Elland, &c., and the united streams flow sluggishly on towards the Humber full of impurity. - - - --- RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 179 The following is a list of the weirs upon the river Aire, their distances from its junction with the Ouse a few miles above Goole, and their heights above the sea, taken approximately from the Ordnance Levels. Distance from jung- Height tion with the above the river Ouse sea in feet. in miles. 15} { Haddlesey dam (belonging to the *} 17 4. and Calder Navigation Company - 19 Beaghall dam - - - - 21 23; Knottingley mill weir - - - 30 29% Castleford mill weir - - - 39 34 Fleet mills, Woodlesford - - 47 37+ Dam at Thorpe Stapleton - - 60 40% Thwaite mills, Hunslet - - 67 41% Hunslet old mill - - - 74 42% Nether mills, Leeds - - - 80 43+ King's mills, Leeds - - - 87 45 Armley mill - - - - 96 46 Kirkstall mill - - - - 105 47% Newlay mill - - - - 129 48#. Ross mill, Bramley - - - || 137 49%. Calverley mill weir - - - || 146 534 Esholt Hall dam - - - || 175 54} Upper Esholt mill - - - 182 55 Buck mill - - - - || 190 56} Baildon mill, Shipley - - - 198 57 Dixon mill-- - - --|-206 57 Hirst mill - - - - 213 58 | New Hirst mill - - - 220 60 Bingley mill - - - - 248 61} Castlefield mill weir - - - || 259 63} Stock Bridge (weir removed) - - || 270 §§ Silsden Bridge (river bed now lowered) 280 72 Cononley Bridge (river bed now lowered). 292 75 Carlton Bridge - - ... 296 77 Inghey Bridge - - - || 309 º Gargrave mill weir - - - || 360 834 Bell Busk mill weir - - - || 440 85} Aireton mill weir - - - || 525 90 Malham - - - The area within the watershed of the Aire follows: Westward of Skipton - - 53,760 acres. Between Skipton and Keighley 38,400 , Between Keighley and Leeds 96,720 , - 188,880 ,, is about as Total westward of Leeds Half an inch of rainfall within the watershed above Keighley (92,160 acres) would be 167,270,400 cubic feet. The greatest quantity of water which I have observed passing Stock Bridge near Keighley during the highest flood was 7,670,000 cubic feet per hour, equal to about 1,000 cubic feet per 12 hours per acre of watershed, but I have heard of occasional floods passing five times that volume of water. - In ordinarily dry weather I have observed not more than about 67,000 cubic feet flowing during the same period. Population within the watershed of Airedale westward of and including Leeds, according to the census of 1861, 482,475. Population within the watershed of Wharfedale above Arthington (where Leeds obtains its water supply), accord- ing, to the census of 1861, 30,200 This water is fouled not only by the resident population of 30,000, but by the sewage from the invalid establishments at Ben Rhydding and Ilkley, and by the lead-washings from the mines in the vicinity of Burnsall. POPULATION WITHIN THE WATERSHED OF THE AIRE, WESTwARD OF LEEDs. Kirkby, Malhamdale, Hanlith, Calton, Airton Otterburn - - - - - 1,211 Gargrave, Winterburn, Eshton, Coniston, Bank Newton - - - - - 1,391 Hetton and Bilstone (in Burnsall) - - 164 Skipton-town - - - - - 4,503 Eastby, Embsay, and Thoralby - - - 1,334 Broughton - - - - - 577 Marton in Craven, East and West Marton * - 256 Thornton in Craven, Earby Kelbrooke - - 2,112 Salterforth in Barnoldswick - - - 424 Carried forward - 1 1,972 Brought forward - 11,972 Carlton in Craven, Dale End or Town. Lothersdale, 23.85 Kildwick parish, Cononley, Bradleys, Silsden Steeton with Eastburn, Sutton - - 10,893 Kº: Haworth, Oakerworth, Braithwaite (parish) - - - - - 18,819 Bingley, East Morton, Baildon, Hawksworth - 15,367 Guiseley, Yeadon, Rawdon, Horsforth, Little London - - - - - 19,284 Bradford parish - - - - - 156,053 Calverley parish - - - - - 28,563 Gildersome - - - - - 2,701 Drighlington, Churwell - - - - 8,873 Leeds - - - - - - 207,565 Tota. – 482,475 --- POPULATION WITHIN THE WATERSHED OF THE WHARFE. Arncliffe - - - - - 140 Deepdale, Foccup, Cray, Kirkgill, Buckden, Lit- 483 ton, Hawkswick - - - I} Kettlewell - - - - - 1,141 Starbotton - - - - - 161 Burnsall, Cracoe, Appletreewick - - - l,414 Kilnsey, Conistone, Bordley, Thorpe - - 348 Linton - - - - - - 1,911 Grassington, Hebden - - - - 2,599 Barden, Drebley, Bolton - - - - 483 Draughton, Hazlewood, Addingham - - 3,514 Blubberhouses, Fewston, Timble - - 1,660 Weston, Denton, Askwith - - - 958 Ilkley - - - - - - 1,407 Middleton, Nesfield - - - - 358 º M - P - - - - 13,040 urley, enston, Poole, Leathley, Castley, Bramhope - - - y - y: } 584 Total - 30,201 RAINFALL. At Holbeck, Leeds, (the gauge being 32 feet above the ground and 127 feet above the sea) the average rainfall per annum has been as follows: In 5 years, 1845 to 1849, inclusive, 23: 56 inches. H}o. 1850 to 1854 >> 1976 Do. 1855 to 1859 ** 22' 06 Do. 1860 to 1864 >> 22° 25 55 * > 25 Average of twenty years at Holbeck 21'91 Average (per annum) of the same period of 20 years: At Keswick - - - 58'38 inches. At Seathwaite - - - 139' 03 , Average of 5 years, from 1860 to 1864 inclusive: At Settle (on the Ribble) 498 feet above the sea - - - 40-64 inches. At Arncliffe (Wharfedale) 750 feet above the sea - - - 58: Average of five years, 1861 to 1865 inclusive: At Settle - - - 39°36 inches. At Arncliffe - - - 56' 69 ..., At Otley (Wharfedale) 206 feet above the sea - - – 27 ° 43 Average of four years, 1862 to 1865 inclusive: At Settle - - - 38°76 inches. 55 92 Arncliffe - - - 55'88 ,, Otley - - - - 27 - 46 55 Broughton in Airedale - - 35' 70 ,, RAIN FALL IN 1865. At Settle, 498 feet above the sea 35' 38 inches. Thornton in Craven, 456 feet above the sea - - - 30°59 ,, Skipton, Airedale, 430 feet above the sea - - - 32°68 ,, Broughton, Airedale, about 400 feet above the sea - – 35' 12 , Leeds, Airedale, 127 feet above the sea - - - 20–65 ,, Arncliffe, Wharfedale, 750 feet above the sea - - 47' 26 , Ilkley, Wharfedale, 500 feet above the sea - - - 36°30 ,, Otley, Wharfedale, 206 feet above the sea - - - 24'81 , LEEDS. Mr. T. Fenwick. 6 Nov. 1866. --- 180 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, LEEDS. Mr. T. Fenwick. 6 Nov. 1866. Mr. L. Ellison. Mr. E. Filliter. The following Table shows the Percentage in each Month of the total Rainfall during the Year (taken on an Average of 20 years) at the Places named. Per cent. | Per cent. | Per cent. January - - - 8-3 12' 4 11 - 9 February - - 5 - 1 7-3 8 : 6 March - - - 7-2 6 : 6 7-2 April - - - 7 - 1 5 - 0 5 : 5 May - - - 6 - 5 4 - 5 4-7 June - - - 10 - 4 6'8 6 - 4 July - - - 9 - 1 7 * 4 7-3 August - - - 10 - 5 8 : 6 8 : 6 September - - 9 - 5 8 : 3 7-3 October - - - 11 - 0 11 : 6 11 - 0 November - - 7-5 10 - 2 9 - 9 December - - 7-8 11 : 3 11 : 6 100 - 0 100 - 0 100 - 0 Per-centagein seven sum- - mer months, March º 60 - 3 47 2 47 - 0 September - - Per-centage in five winter months, October to | 39 - 7 52 S 53° 0 February - - 100 - 0 100 : 0 100 - 0 Per-centage in six sum- mer months, April to } 53 - 1 40 - 6 39 8 September - - Per-centage in six winter months, October to 46 - 9 59 °4 60 - 2 March - - 100 - 0 100 - 0 100 : 0 At Partington in the East Riding of York, on an average of 10 years, the per-centage is: Six summer months, April to September - 55-3 Six winter months, October to March - 44.7 100.0 NUMBER of DAY's in which RAIN was found in the Gauge ta the following Places: | | Per-centage A. - - Verage Period. Namcorpiº, Nº"º"; of Days. whole d period. per day. Weetwood, near Leeds - 142 39 '172 During 1865 - hº Cumber- 139 38 *354 ſWeetwood near Leeds - 103 57 *122 | Pºt Island, Cumber- 82 45 *366 an In 1866 six months only || Borrowdale, Cumberland 106 58 '715 January to June - - || Isle of Skye - - - 116 64 *388 Manchester - - 84 46 *149 ULondon - - - 93 51 *183 (Signed) THoMA's FENwick, Mr. LAMBERT ELLIsoN (Knaresboro') examined. 5771. (Chairman.) You reside at Knaresboro’?— Yes. 5772. I believe that you are connected with water- works there 2–I am the proprietor and manager of some small waterworks which supply the town there. 5773. Are they private works —They are. 5774. What number of gallons do you supply per day ?—About 70,000. 5775. How long have those works been in exis- tence 2–100 years ; the Act was got in 1764. 5776. How many people do you supply –About 4,000. 5777. Do you supply any manufactories 2–No. 5778. About what income do those waterworks bring in 2–I do not know that I should like to state that. 5779. Or what they cost 2–No, they have been in my family for many years. 5780. What do you wish to state about them — The people in the town of Knaresboro' are perfectly satisfied with the water, bnt they complain that the sewage of Harrogate which is situated about three miles above runs into the river, and they threaten me with new works if I do not remedy that evil. 5781. Where does your water supply come from ? —From the river Nidd which runs from above Pateley Bridge. 5782. Does the river Nidd flow through Harrogate 2 —No, it is about three-quarters of a mile or a mile above it, but the people of Harrogate run a great part of their sewage into it. 5783. Will not the common law of the land enable you to compel the Harrogate people to keep their sew- age out —I do not know that it would. I might perhaps have to go to Chancery, and I am too old to go to Chancery. 5784. Then you want to see some public law passed which shall prevent this form of pollution ?–Yes, so that we could get a remedy in an easy way. About a month ago I went to Croydon with the surveyor from Harrogate, to see what could be done. I believe that the local board of health are willing to do what is right, but they cannot hit upon the best plan of doing it, and perhaps they are a little dilatory. 5785. Is there land upon which they can put their sewage by irrigation, as at Croydon —They might have some little difficulty in doing it ; it is rather a hilly country, but I think that by having a drain pipe they might do it. 5786. That is a question for the local board 2– Yes, and also for their surveyor. 5787. What further observations do you wish to make to this Commission ?—I do not know that I have anything else to say, except that I think there ought to be some easy remedy ; there ought to be a process by which the matter could be gone into before magis- trates. The witness withdrew. Mr. Edward FILLITER (Leeds) examined. 5788. (Chairman.) You are a civil engineer?—I alīl. 5789. In practice in Leeds —Yes. 5790. You have had considerable experience in waterworks?—I have been engaged in waterworks for a great part of the time that I have been in practice. 5791. I think that originally you were a pupil of Mr. Wicksteed 2–Yes. 5792. And you have been brought up under him?— Yes. 5793. You have been acquainted with the different §º waterworks of England since your pupilage 2– CS, 5794. You are in practice as a private engineer in Leeds 2—I am. 5795. You are employed by the corporation of Leeds in some capacity ?—I am employed by them as engineer to their waterworks, and also as inspecting engineer for their sewerage. 5796. The waterworks having been transferred to the corporation are entirely under your charge – Yes. 5797. And you advise the borough surveyor upon any occasion when your services are required 2–Yes. 5798. I suppose that you were engaged by the corporation in the last session of Parliament to enable them to get their Improvement Act —Yes, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 181 5799. At that time I presume you got up certain statistics of Leeds, both as to its sewerage and as to these becks as a source of water supply 2–We got up statistics with reference to the sewerage and the state of the town, and so on, they were chiefly got up by the surveyor, who no doubt will be able to produce them if required. 5800. In what condition did you find the becks flowing through Leeds?—The becks for the improve- ment of which we obtained an Act of Parliament last session are in a deplorably dirty condition. 5801. Dirty by local pollution ?–From pollution, not wholly arising within the borough in one instance, but wholly arising within the borough in the two other instances. There were three becks which we dealt with, namely, the Dow Beck in Hunslet, the Wortley Beck which falls into the river Aire just above Victoria Bridge, and the Sheepscar Beck, or the Addle Beck, as it is sometimes called, which falls into the river Aire at East Street. The Holbeck Beck or the Wortley Beck receives dye refuse and refuse from mills without the borough, and we had no power and have no power so far as I know as a cor- poration to touch them. In the other cases, that is to say, of the Addle Beck and the Dow Beck, the nui- sances arise within our corporate jurisdiction. 5802. Do you know whether the borough surveyor has made any tabulated list of the several manufac- tories on these streams ?–He has. 5803. New plans of sewerage have been carried out to some extent in Leeds; did you advise the cor- poration as to those plans ?—Upon those which are now being carried out I am advising them, but the main sewerage which is in existence for the entire borough was originally constructed by Mr. Leather. 5804. Then you are not responsible for the great outlet sewer which goes down below 2–No, it was constructed before I came to Leeds, or had anything to do with it. The chief respect in which I have had to do with the main sewerage, as to the engineering part of it, has been the construction of flood outlets for that sewer ; we found that though it was a very large sewer it was not large enough in flood time to take the whole water poured down from the streets, and we consequently had cellars flooded, and I had to construct very considerable outlets on the course of that sewer so as to enable it to discharge into the river during those periods. 5805. Having had considerable experience of engi- neering works of that class, would you say that in laying out the main sewerage of a town like Leeds, or in fact of any town, it would be advisable te con- struct sewers sufficiently large to take extensive floods, or that the proper way would be to construct your sewers for sewer work, and to construct flood outlets? —I think that the better plan is to construct sewers of the ordinary size to take the sewage water down them, and where practicable to construct flood outlets. 5806. You would not make a rule of three sum of the matter by taking the rainfall and the area, and from them obtaining the size of your sewers ?–Far from it ; we should get very large sewers if we did. I look upon streams as the proper carriers of flood Waters. 5807. The surface and the streams ?–Yes, and the sewers in my opinion should only take the refuse and such ordinary rain as may fairly be taken into them, but not the floods. 5808. (Mr. Harrison.) Are the works which you have carried out overflows from the sewer itself?—- They are. 5809. They are not what you would call flood out- lets direct into the river ?—No, they are overflows from the sewer into the upper mill pool, into the tail of which we pour our sewage ; in fact the pressure is sufficiently great in the sewers during floods to drive the water into the upper mill pool. 5810. So that in flood time the sewage discharge instead of being below the town of Leeds is nearly opposite to it?—Yes, but that is only in very con- siderable floods. 5811. (Chairman.) And when the water is diluted down to the flood quality ?–Yes. 5812. It then ceases to be sewage 2–Yes. I do not think that these outlets act more than once a year, but when they do act they are an immense advantage. 5813. Have you kept a record of the rainfall for any number of years ?—I have a record of the rainfall of Leeds extending back for something like 20 years. 5814. A record week by week, month by month, and year by year —Quite so. 5815. Have you it by you ?—I have in my pocket- book the statement month by month, but not week by week. 5816. Taking the summaries of years can you tell me the least fall and the greatest fall —Yes, from the year 1849, at Leeds, up to 1865 I have it. 5817. What has been the least fall in any one year from December to December 2—In the year 1864. I have the lowest record, namely, 17.04 inches. 5818. What is the highest?—The highest was in the year 1852, when we had 32: 18 inches. 5819. It was nearly as two to one?—Yes, that is about the usual rule, so far so I have observed it in these districts. 5820. As a waterworks engineer would you say that the average rainfall for 20 years would be of any practical service to you without the minimum and the maximum ?—No doubt you cannot make a thoroughly complete scheme, unless you have the minimum and the maximum. 5821. If you had to depend upon storeage would not the minimum rule the quantity of storeage – Certainly. 5822. And the maximum would decide the cha- racter of the mischief to which you might be sub- ject –Quite so. 5823. The average is a piece of information useful in its way, but cannot be the foundation upon which you would work?—Yes; as a waterworks engineer of course I am aware that the maximum is essential with reference to the question of overflow and reservoir embankments and so on, but in respect of supply, the minimum undoubtedly is the real thing to look at. 5824. Have you any record of the maximum fall in any one hour in this area during those 20 years 2–1 have records here to within a few weeks; we take the facts day by day, and I can obtain the results of a number of excessive rainfalls within any one day, but I cannot state whether those have fallen within an hour, or more or less. 5825. You say that you know what the rainfall of the county and the country generally is 2–Yes. 5826. In the whole of England it varies, I think, from about 17 inches up to 70 inches —Yes, we have it 140 inches in Seatollar and Seathwaite, in Borrow- dale, in the Lakes. 5827. What is it on the eastern coast 2—About 18 inches according to my memory. 5828. Do you know whether you are liable to as heavy thunder storms where you have the least fall of rain as where you have the greatest ?—I do not. 5829. You have thunder storms in this part of the world —Of course. I remember perfectly that at Scarborough in the year, I think, 1856, a tremendous thunder storm occurred which filled their rain gauge, and they obtained more than nine inches of rain within an hour or two, for their rain gauge only held nine inches and it ran over. 5830. Then an engineer having to devise river works or drainage works, would be very much de- ceived as to the damaging effect of flood waters, if he took the usual rainfall -No doubt. 5831. An excessive flood might be as damaging in a district where the annual rainfall was 18 inches as in a district where it was 70 inches —Yes, and the Derwent and the Rye, the two rivers which drain the East Riding, are peculiarly liable to floods. 5832. In dealing with this question meteoro- logically, an engineer must know the excesses and the time of those excesses, that is to say, the maximum of damage in the minimum of time –Quite so. LEEDS. Mr. E. Filliter. 6 Nov. 1866. Z 3 182 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. Mr. E. Pilliter. 6 Nov. 1866. - 5833. Being engineer of the waterworks of Leeds, I presume that you are acquainted with all the details and particulars of those waterworks?—I believe so. 5834. When were they established?—The Act of Parliament was obtained for the present works in 1836 or 1837; the works were completed and brought into operation in the autumn of 1841. 5835. Were those the works which we have heard of, which pumped from the Aire at Leeds Bridge – No, the works which superseded them. 5836. When were the first works established for pumping from the Aire at Leeds Bridge –That I can hardly state; I believe they were erected 40 or 50 years before, but upon that point I can give no evi- dence; they continued until the year 1841, when they were superseded by the works designed by Mr. Leather. 5837. Do you know about what volume was pumped at Leeds Bridge just before the works there were abolished 2–I think that I have a record which will enable me to give you that detail. 5838. Where were the works removed 2–To a small gathering ground, at that time about 1,000 acres, at Eccup in the watershed of the Wharfe. 5839. (Mr. Harrison.) Is that near Addle –Yes; that gathering ground was for a time found to be sufficient. Eventually more water was required; the reservoir at Eccup was enlarged by heightening the bank, a conduit was formed from it to Stubhouse to take the Stubhouse Beck, which gave another 300 or 400 acres of drainage ground, and so increased the quantity. That, however, was not sufficient ; the town increased and a dry year came. 5840. (Chairman.) Do you remember at what date the dry year was 2—I think that it was the year 1851, but I was not at that time in Leeds. I find that our consumption in that year was very much below the year before or the year after; the consumption in that year was 951,000 gallons per day, and in the year before it was 1,490,000, and in the year after it was 1,252,000; the houses were 21,000 in the previous year, 22,000 in the year in which the deficiency occurred, and 25,000 in the following year. In the year 1851 they were obliged to put down temporary works below Harewood Bridge; those works were constructed with the consent of Lord Harewood, and the pipes were laid through his park. Eventually the Corporation who succeeded the old water company were unable to make permanent arrangements with Lord Harewood, and those works had to be removed and new works constructed, for taking 2,500,000 gallons a day at Arthington, where they are now situated. In the year 1862 we got an Act of Parliament for enabling us to pump 3,500,000 gallons per day, in addition to what we previously had power to do—that makes 6,000,000 gallons a day from the Wharfe, and 750,000 gallons from Eccuy in dry weather, so that about 7,000,000 gallons is our total quantity. 5841. Have you ever taken that quantity from the Wharfe 2–No; we have never pumped 6,000,000; we have put up an additional steam engine to enable us to do so, but we have not, as we intend to do, added to our line of pumping pipes, and we have had some difficulty in keeping both our sets of engines at full speed; we have never yet pumped the 6,000,000 gallons, but we have never required it. 5842. What number of gallons per head would 7,000,000 gallons give you?—At the last census the population was 207,000, but we believe it now to be 240,000—that would give 29 gallons per head per day. 5843. What volume do you supply for manufac- turing purposes?—At the present time we supply about 500,000 gallons per day for manufacturing purposes—about one-ninth of our whole supply. Our total supply now is about 4,500,000 per diem. 5844. Where do the manufacturers usually get their water 2—The great bulk of supply is from the river Aire, for the manufacturers are scattered up and down the banks of the Aire ; they supply themselves also largely from bore holes in the sub-soil in the coal measures below. 5845. What quality of water is so procured?—I believe that it is a very high alkaline water. I once had an analysis made of some from a bore-hole at Beeston, and I think the water contained between 50 and 60 grains to the gallon; a large portion of that was alkaline salt. 5846. Then it would be apparently softer than pure water –Yes, and it is very much valued on that ground. The Spa water as it is locally called is a good deal used in Leeds for making tea, and persons find it a profitable trade to take the water in carts and to supply it to the inhabitants, though I believe that that trade is very much diminished. 5847. It is found to be so much cheaper in making tea 2–It is found to act so much better in making an infusion of tea. 5848. (Professor Way.) It makes very dark tea, I suppose –Yes; I expect that it is the colour more than the flavour. 5849. It is not what you and I would like to use 2–I do not use it at my own house, I use the town's water. 5850. (Chairman.) What extent of engine power do you use at your waterworks –Two double acting 100 horse power engines, and one single acting 300 horse power engine, making 500 horse power. 5851. Are those engines rotary or direct acting 2– The older pair are rotary, working a bucket and ram pump; they are all beam engines. The larger engine has a plunger pump on the system of the Cornish engine. 5852. What coal do you use 2–We get ordinary Yorkshire coal ; we used to have it from the north, and we do so now occasionally, but from the difficulties of getting coals from the north we now generally use West Riding coal. 5853. Laid down at what price?—Our prices have varied; we are now paying 7s. 9d., that was the last price which was quoted if I remember rightly, that is for ordinary slack. 5854. Do you remember what weight of coal is required for each nominal horse power?—I have not worked that out. I think that our Cornish engine is doing between 50,000,000 and 60,000,000 duty, and the others are doing about 25,000,000 or 30,000,000. 5855. What do the Cornish engines do 2–The best Cornish engines with Welsh coal do 90,000,000, and in short trials of 24 hours 120,000,000. The coal which we get is very inferior to Welsh coal. 5856. What would that be per million gallons lifted 100 feet high 2–I can easily give you that. I know that our working expenses, exclusive of interest upon capital, are a halfpenny per 1,000 gallons lifted 250 feet high, and about another halfpenny for interest upon capital, including rent of land. 5857. Do you think that sewage might be lifted at as cheap a rate, upon the same scale as that upon which you are lifting water?—I have no doubt of it ; in fact it is practically done, as you know very well, both at Leicester and in London, and elsewhere. 5858. At a halfpenny per 1,000 gallons, 250 feet high 2–Yes, about that, within a fraction. 5859. I assume that small engines would not work so economically as your large engines; that is to say, with engines of 30 or 40 horse power people must expect to pay a much larger price?—Not a very much larger one, but there is a proportionate difference. The old Cornish rule is not a bad one ; namely, 1,000,000 an inch. As far as my own experience goes, I should say that that is very nearly the truth. 5860. That is to say, an increase of 1,000,000 an inch in diameter 2–Yes. 5861. What is the relative cost of a rotary engine, and a Cornish engine, per horse power —Of course a Cornish engine is a single engine, and a rotary engine is a double engine, therefore in one case you have a smaller engine to do the same work, and so there ought to be a difference in favour of a rotary engine in the first cost. However, I have not found it a very great difference in actually constructing works. At the last Leeds works the cost of the Cornish engine, which will pump 3,500,000 gallons per day, was very nearly the same as that of the two 100 horse power engines pumping 2,500,000 gallons per day. No doubt some- RivKRS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 183 thing, and probably a good deal, must be allowed for the fact that the first set of engines was a pair where all the workmanship was doubled, whereas the other is a single machine, though no doubt massive. 5862. What was the cost of your Cornish engine —About 10,000l. 5863. How much is that per horse power 2–About 33!. ; that of course included boilers. 5864. I have heard that Cornish engines cost as much as 70l. or 75l. per horse power —Yes; I know engines which have cost a great deal of money. At Lee Bridge, the engine for the East London Water- works cost 25,000l. altogether. 5865. Is that cylinder 100 inches?—Yes. 5866. Is that the largest cylinder –The cylinder, - 144 inches diameter, of the engine used for draining Haarlam Lake is the largest. I do not know a larger cylinder used for pumping purposes for water- works than a cylinder of 110 inches. We call our engine 300 horse power, and it cost 10,000l. ; that gives 33}l, per horse power. I may say that that was not the lowest tendered price. 5867. With regard to the outlet sewer, constructed by Mr. Leather, you know, I suppose, very well the point of discharge into the river, and the intervening land through which it goes 2–I know the point of discharge very well, and I have seen the intervening land occasionally. 5868. Are you aware whether any private arrange- ment was made with the owner of that intervening land for the right to take that sewer there 2–Yes; Mr. Meynell Ingram, who owns the property there, was compensated by an annual payment of 300l. for the injury which might be done to him. 5869. Is that payment to be continuous?—Yes; it was a payment to him for the right of way and dis- charge of sewage through his estate. We went for a considerable distance at Knostrop through his property. 5870. Has there been any talk of establishing sediment tanks, or means for purifying the sewage before passing it into the river?—Yes. When the Leeds sewerage works were first constructed, the question of purification by lime, similar to the Leicester plan, was a good deal discussed in Leeds, and the corpo- ration took the precaution at the time of making an arrangement with Mr. Meynell Ingram, by which they could at any time purchase 20 acres near their outlet at a fixed price. That deed is in force, and the corporation may act upon it to-morrow if they please. 5871. Had you anything to do with devising the Leicester works 2—I assisted in making the plans, but I had nothing to do with the management of the works. I have never had an opportunity of seeing the works in operation. I saw the experimental works in operation which were made there first of all, but I have never seen the complete works. 5872. What is your opinion of that experiment, practically, as an experiment —Commercially, it is a complete failure; but as regards the purification of the river, all that I have heard of it, and all that I had seen of it previously, leads me to believe that it is successful enough. The residuum was not worth fetching away. 5873. The residuum did not bring what was antici- pated 2–No, far from it. 5874. Do you know whether, during the laboratory experiments, it was considered that it would be valuable as a manure ?—Yes. Professor Alfred Taylor and Mr. Aikin both reported that it was a very valuable material. 5875. And did they consider that the works would commercially pay ? – Their report was simply a chemical one, as to the constituents of the material obtained. 5876. (Professor Way.) In what year was that?— I think in 1847, but I could not be positive. 5877. That, I suppose, was at a time when much less was known about the value of manures than is now known 2–Yes. 5878. Mr. Aikin has been dead for some years?—Yes. 5879. He was a chemist of the old school 2–He was. 5880. (Chairman.) In the event of the Leeds cor- poration having compulsory powers put in force against them as to their sewage, do you anticipate that they could disinfect it with any profit to themselves 2–No; we do not at present anticipate that there is any hope of that. 5881. You think that if they are compelled to precipitate and purify, as at Leicester, they must do it at a loss —I feel no doubt of it, with our present knowledge upon the subject. 5882. Have you inspected any places for using sewage for irrigation purposes 2–I have inspected Croydon, which I believe is about the best instance. 5883. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of sewage upon the land there?—Yes. I do not think that an opinion merely formed by passing over the fields once is worth a great deal, but I am perfectly satisfied that the effect of purification was actually pro- duced by the running of the water over the surface of the grass. 5884. The effluent water had lost a great deal of its character of sewage –I may say entirely so; it was bright, and very sweet. 5885. How long is it since you were there 2–It was last March or last February. 5886. You have not been there during the heat of summer ?—No. At the time when I was there they had stopped a portion of the works for the purpose of making some repair to a drain, and they had to turn some of the sewage into an adjoining pond, where it stagnated. The smell anywhere near the pond was very offensive; we could smell it for many yards, perhaps 100 or 200 yards off. 5887. Is Leeds sewage offensive in smell in summer? —It is. - 5888. Are you aware whether there have been any complaints by the landowners in the district 2–I have heard of no complaints being made by them, I may say that there is no residential property soimmediately adjoining the river as to make it likely that there would be any ground for complaint. 5889. Have the Aire and Calder Navigation Com- pany complained of banks being formed in the river by solids sent out at the outlet 2—I am not aware that they have made any official complaint, nor do I remember any actual complaint of the kind; at the same time I think it very probable that something of the sort may occur. 5890. The company do dredge in the river ?–Yes. 5891. There is some agitation in Leeds with regard to a new water supply for Leeds?—That is so. 5892. I also see by the report which you kindly sent me some time ago that you have a scheme for an extension of the supply f—That is the case. 5893. Upon what ground is that extension sought to be made –On account of gradual increase which is taking place in the consumption of water in Leeds, not only do we wish for an extension, but we are going for a purer supply; the cause of our doing so is the gradually increasing impurity in the river Wharfe, from which we now obtain our supply ; I mean in- creasing impurity above the point where we pump. 5894. What is the quality of the water which you take P – The degree of hardness is about 8%, as ascertained last spring ; it varies generally from 8 to 10 degrees; when supplied to Leeds it contains about 13 grain of organic matter per gallon. 5895. Then it comes into the category of what we should call hard water 2–Yes, it is rather a hard water. 5896. It is not so hard as the metropolitan water?— No, and it softens a good deal, as all waters of that class do, by boiling. 5897. (Professor Way.) But not nearly so much as chalk water would —Certainly not. 5898, (Chairman.) What are the points of con- tamination above your pumping works —The Pool paper and worsted mills, the Otley mills, the worsted mills at Burley, the mills at Addingham, the sewage of Otley, where there is an incomplete system of sewerage, and the surface drainage of Burley, which has no sewerage. 5899. Have you any tanneries?—Yes, there is one at Otley, and there is some sheep-washing at Otley Bridge. LEEDS. Mr. E. Filliter. 6 Nov. 1866. Z 4 184 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. stations?—I believe that it would ; I believe that the inhabitants of the town would have been satisfied with the water, notwithstanding its comparative hard- ness, if there had been no offensive matter discharged into the river. 5901. And no possibility of the growth of that offensiveness by the growth of population ?–No doubt. 5902. Are you aware of any complaint having been made in Leeds by the medical men, or others, as to the quality of the water affecting the health of the popula- tion ?—I have never heard a complaint of that kind. 5903. Does the question of extension simply involve the question of purification 2–We also require a larger quantity. 5904. And also, I assume, you wish to get water by gravitation instead of by pumping —That is a part of the scheme. We also require, and would gladly have a soft water; a soft water lies very close to us, and we are seeking to obtain it. 5905. Did you ever investigate the comparative cost of gravitating and pumping schemes 2–Yes, it entirely depends upon the distance from which you have to gravitate, and the height to which you have to pump, and therfore I do not think that any very general rule can be given in the matter ; In our own case, when I estimated for 20,000,000 gallons a day, I found that it was cheaper to gravitate than to pump, at the distance from which we should gravitate, but I question whether that rule would have been held if instead of going for 20,000,000, we had gone for half or a third of 20,000,000. 5906. It does not therefore follow that a gravitating scheme is cheaper than a pumping scheme, because you have no annual cost in working?—No, because on the other hand you have the annual interest to pay upon your outlay. 5907. In your pumping scheme you have no impounding reservoirs to provide —No. 5908. Do you give any compensation in the shape of money?—Yes, we have given compensation to the millowners below us in money. 5909. What would be a set-off against providing compensation reservoirs in the other case ?–No doubt of it. - 5910. Then you have the annual cost of working which represents the interest of the capital necessary for going further a field in the gravitating scheme – Quite so. 5911. Therefore, it becomes a consideration which scheme is the most effectual of the two –Yes; and it probably will vary in every case. 5912. Have you formed any estimate of the com- parative value of waters in proportion to their hardness or softness?—No. I have seen statements upon that question, but I have never at all gone into it myself. 5913. Have you seen statements of Mr. Bateman with regard to the scheme in Glasgow, which has been talked of lately?—Yes; I am quite satisfied from all the evidence which I have seen that a soft water is better for a large manufacturing town than a hard water. 5914. That it is more economical ?—Yes. 5915. Both for boiler purposes, and for culinary purposes, and even for drinking 2–0uite so; and by filtration we make it so bright and so pleasant to look at, that we overcome the objection which may be made to a soft water brought, as it sometimes is, directly into a town without filtration. 5916. (Professor Way.) Has the water in the bottle before us the colour of peat —There is peat in our water. We have had peat in our water during the last six weeks. 5917. (Chairman.) Do you use any system of filtra- tion ?—We filter on the ordinary system of sand filtration at a place called Weetwood, about three miles from Leeds; the water is passed to our large reservoir and filter beds at Weetwood, where it is filtered. LEEDS. 5900. If that pollution were prevented as it will be 5918. What depth of sand do you use for filtering 2 -I., in the Thames, would it at all affect the question of -18 inches. Mr. E. Filliter, your removing the supply from the present pumping 5919. What is the area 2–We have now about 11,000 square yards. 5920. How many gallons would a square yard filter in the 24 hours?—We supply 4,500,000 gallons a day through that 11,000 square yards and could do more. I have passed the whole of that quantity through one- third of that area in the time, and therefore if we could clean the beds fast enough 3,500 square yards might be made to do for 4,500,000 gallons per day. Of course I do not recommend that. 5921. Have you any strict rule which you follow with regard to area –Yes, I have always adopted the old Lancashire rule, and I find it even excessive as regards filtration surface; that rule is 2 square yards for each gallon per minute ; that works out to about 720 gallons a day per square yard. 5922. Then the rule of a gallon per square inch in 24 hours would be very much in excess of that?— Yes, it would be nearly double that. 5923. Do you use in your filter bed anything besides sand 2–Not at Leeds. At Wakefield where they have the carbide I am putting down two filter beds. 5924. You have not thought it necessary to use any of the carbide in Leeds 2—No, the expense was the great reason : I made the filter beds about five years ago, and if it had not been for the cost of the carbide I should have introduced it. 5925. Taking your Wakefield experience, what is your opinion of the carbide?—I think that it is a very good thing. I am satisfied that it has a remarkable effect in purifying water. 5926. And in taking out such stain as you find in the water of these rivers ?—Yes; I have seen the water at Wakefield quite peaty at times, and the peat stain is entirely removed by the filter beds. 5927. What would it cost to add the necessary amount of carbide to the Leeds filters?—About 20,000l., and it would have trebled the expense of the filter beds. 5928. About what would be the thickness of the carbide –It would be 6 inches thick, and mixed up with sand. - 5929. Does not Mr. Spencer recommend that it should be used below the sand and entirely by itself? —I think that it should be mixed with the sand so as to get as much surface as possible, and placed below the sand; the carbide would thus act chemically upon the matter contained in the water. 5930. (Professor Way.) We understood Mr. Spencer to say that he did not wish it mixed 2–I did not hear his evidence, so that I am not acquainted with what he now recommends. I know that he has recommended mixing. 5931. (Chairman.) From what source do you pro- pose getting your supply at Leeds 2—From the river Washbourne. 5932. Of what quality is that water 2—It varies from 2% to 4 degrees of hardness. 5933. Coming from what stratification ?–From the millstone grit. 5934. Is it very brown in colour 2 – Sometimes. Frequently when I have been down at the junction of the Wharfe and the Washbourne the Washbourne has been very much more transparent, and actually freer from peat stain than the Wharfe. That water is 2} degrees of hardness at the point where we gravitate, and it is 4 degrees at the mouth of the Washbourne. 5935. I suppose that it gets its lime from a surface source –Yes, I think chiefly so. The land on one of the chief branches of the Washbourne has been a good deal cultivated with lime for the last year or two, and perhaps more, and I know that that is a hard feeder ; it is of about 6% degrees of hardness. Greenhow Hill, at the head of the Washbourne, supplies lime- stone ; the limekilns through the whole district are fed with lime from that hill, but within the valley of the Washbourne itself there is very little lime. I only know of one place. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 11 o'clock. RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 185 Leeds, Wednesday, 7th November 1866. PRESENT: ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THoRNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Edward FILLITER, ESQ. 5936. (Chairman.) I believe you have prepared a plan showing the land that might be made available for application of sewage by gravity ?—Yes. 5937. Is that the Ordnance map?—Yes, on an inch scale, showing Leeds and the valley of the river Aire below Leeds for about 15 miles down to this point (pointing to the plan). 5938. You have shown on that plan what number of square acres are available 2–Yes, for application by gravitation. In the district below Milford Junction about 10,000 acres might be made available. 5939. Are those 10,000 acres lying within the reach of gravitation ?—Yes; but nearer to Leeds, and there- fore not necessitating so long a conduit, if pumping 25 feet high was resorted to at the existing outlet of the main sewer, there is an area that might be obtained free from residential property in the valley of the river Aire of about 5,000 acres. 5940. What would the expense be per million gallons of pumping 2—I have made a calculation not founded upon our experience in pumping to high lifts, but for small engines applicable to low lifts, and I believe the cost of pumping a million gallons 10 feet high would be 5s. ; 20 feet high, of course, 10s., and so on up to 12s. 6d. for 25 feet high. 5941. That cost would represent the working expenses 2–Yes, but it includes the interest upon capital as well; in fact, in round numbers the total cost. 5942. Do you know how many million gallons a day ordinarily pass out of the sewage outlet —I had the dimensions taken of the outlet culvert some years ago, and I ascertained that the delivery varied from 6,000,000 to 8,000,000 gallons a day at that time. I mean some three or four years ago. The sewage has increased since then, but I have not measured it since. 5943. Are the sewers so arranged at the present time that they take in any large volume of beck water and subsoil water —They will take in a certain volume of subsoil water, but I do not think they take in any beck water, and for this reason; we were bound by the Act of Parliament under which Leeds was sewered in 1848 to exclude all living streams, and that has been I believe carefully attended to. 5944. What is the volume of water that is pumped into Leeds 2—About 4,500,000 gallons. 5945. What volume of water is obtained from other sources —I do not know. - 5946. Then there are wells on premises of manufac- turers?—Yes, but they are decreasing in number and in yield. 5947. Do you think there is 1,000,000 gallons a day obtained from all the other sources 2–It would be a very rough statement to make, and I should not much like to say. 5948. Suppose I take 500,000 gallons as re- presenting the loss in evaporation and waste. Do you think 4,000,000 would find their way into the sewers?—Yes, I think that is probable. 5949. At the outlet you found that there were from 6,000,000 to 8,000,000 gallons?—Yes. 5950. Therefore your subsoil water is nearly double the water supply?—Yes. 5951. That being so, any pumping that might be º to would involve the lift of that quantity ? - I eS. 5952. I mean that you must have power to pump 8,000,000 or 10,000,000 gallons —Quite that, and probably more by this time, 5958. If I assume that there will be 10,000,000 17159.-2, | Professor John THOMAS WAY. (Leeds), further examined. gallons to be lifted 25 feet at 12s. 6d. ; that would be 6l. 5s. 0d. a day ?—Yes. 5954. And that spread over 365 days would be how much –The cost of the pumping would be nearly 2,300l. a year. 5955. If the land could be dealt with as at Edinburgh and at Croydon and other places, and it could be increased in value from 50s. per acre up to 20l. per acre, there would be a margin left for the payment of that cost of pumping?—Yes, there would be a very handsome margin of profit in that case. 5956. Taking the population at 240,000, what area would there be, 150 persons to the acre P-There would be an area of 1,600 acres, but our drainage area is not anything like so small as that. 5957. You mean for application of sewage?—Yes. 5958. You think you could utilize it very readily upon that area —Yes, so far as the works are con- cerned. 5959. If you increase the land by 21, an acre in value per annum, what would that give?—3,200l. a year and that would more than pay for the pumping. 5960. If land was found available, does not ex- perience show that a profitable arrangement of that kind might be made –That is undoubtedly the case. 5961. The area of land required is not so over- whelmingly great 2–Not if 1,600 acres are considered sufficient. 5962. (Mr. Harrison.) Could you not obtain on the banks of the Aire as many as 1,600 acres to which the sewage might be led by gravitation ?—I have not examined that question, and therefore I cannot anSWOI’. 5963. (Chairman.) I believe you have laid before the corporation of Leeds recently a scheme for a water supply both for the present and for a considerable future period —Yes, that is so. 5964. Have you the plans and the details before you?—I have not the details here, but I have some few calculations having reference to that point. 5965. What do you call the areas from which you intend to draw water 2–There is the river Wash- bourn, the area of which is 25% square miles. 5966. What do you estimate to be the volume of water —There is estimated to be 23,000,000 gallons per day from that area. 5967. What is the rainfall over it?—I have no actual records of that, but I calculate it to be 36; inches per acre. It is a very lofty district. 5968. What proportion of that rainfall would give you the volume you propose to deal with ?–164 inches. 5969. And what would you give in compensation to the stream —At the rate of 8% inches of rain. 5970. What is the minimum flow of the river ?—It is about 3,000,000 gallons a day in very dry weather indeed. 5971. Do you know the area above 2–It is about 25% square miles in acres rather more than 16,000 a CI'eS. 5972. What would the flow be off that ground per second from each 1,000 acres 2–Much less than half a cubic foot per second. 5973. You know that?—Yes, I know that it must be so. 5974. What other area do you propose to deal with ?—I have gone forward to the river Nidd and the river Burn, but they are so very far remote that there is no prospect, I suppose, of that being done in our time. 5975. Then the Washbourn is the area to which A a LEEDS. E. Filliter, Esq. 7 Nov. 1866. --- 186 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. E. Filliter, Esq. 7 Nov. 1866. you are looking for the present supply?–Yes, for the next 20 or 30 years to come. 5976. The others are not merely alternative schemes 2–No, they are merely extensions of the first, if they should be ever required. 5977. Are those areas likely to be forestalled for any other purposes, commercial or mining 2–I think I think the rivers are. not likely to be forestalled, because an attempt has not for commercial purposes. been made during the last 50 years more than once to establish flax, silks, and cotton mills upon the Wash- bourn, but they have all failed. 5978. What is the geological character of the area to which you intend to resort -It is the millstone grit formation with a little limestone at the upper end of it. --- 5979. Are there any minerał beneath it?–Peºple have attempted to obtain in crºtocºl and coal in the valley of the Washbourn, but every attempt that has been made has proved a total failure; there is not a sufficiently thick bed of either to make it worth while to undertake mining operations. 5980. Are the beds very thin 2–Yes; and the same thing occurs in the valley of the river Burn, and the Nidd people work an inferior coal in those districts. 5981. What is the fall of the river Washbourn per mile; are there good reservoir sites in it — Admirable. 5982. What will be the capacity of the largest reservoir you intend to make –The largest reservoir that I intend to make is a compensation reservoir, which is to hold 890,000,000 gallons, covering an area of 113 acres, the extreme depth being 56 feet. 5983. What would be the next in size 2–One that would hold 600,000,000 gallons, with an area of 118 acres, the height of the embankment being 35 feet. 5984. Will there be facilities for increasing either of those banks if you desire it —Not the upper one perhaps, but the lower one might be increased. There are many other reservoir sites in the valley, and if any difficulty was found in increasing the height of the banks of either of these two reservoirs, other sites might readily be substituted. 5985. Have you had much experience in construct- ing reservoirs on the millstone grit 2–I have not. 5986. Are you acquainted with the Manchester and Bradford Waterworks 2–I am. 5987. Do you know that there has been a difficulty experienced in making the embankments tight on those formations —I do. 5988. Have you had any trial borings taken on the Washbourn ?—Not yet. 5989. Will the scheme be a gravitating one or a pumping one *—Partially gravitating and partially pumping. 5990. Have you had the water analysed ?–Yes. 5991. What is its quality?—We have had four analyses taken in the valley of the Washbourn, one at Blubber-houses Bridge, the point at which we propose to divert the water to Leeds. These are general and not minute analyses and the hardness appears to be 2}* at that point, reduced by boiling to 22°; the total dissolved matter per gallon is 42-grains, of which 3 grains are mineral matter and 12 grains are volatile and organic matter. 5992. Is the water discoloured at any time of the year?—Yes, it is discoloured by peat during autumn and winter. - 5993. Can you generally separate the peaty water by intercepting drains from the other water?—Part of the plan that I have laid down is to have by-wash channels, and part of the peaty water would therefore be sent down into the compensation reservoir to be stored, the reservoir for the supply of Leeds by gravita- tion being filled with pure and bright waters, which are in considerable volume after the peaty waters have once flowed out. --- 5994. What is the length of your conduit down to Leeds?—We do not require a conduit to go further than Eccup reservoir, which is our storage reservoir. - - --- To that point the length of the conduit would be about 13 miles. 5995. The details are not yet set out 2–No, not yet; they will be for the next session. 5996. (Mr. Harrison.) I observe on this map that you have marked two or three of the Bradford reser- voirs and gathering ground 2–Yes; I have marked the whole of the Bradford scheme upom that plan to show the comparative extent of what I have proposed for Leeds with what has been done for Bradford, and also the relative situation of the works. 5997. I observe in your report that you speak of the Bradford corporation as having occupied certain ground upon which they would not like to be interfered with 2–Yes, I do. 5998. I suppose your object in coming forward with this scheme for Leeds is that Leeds may occupy some other ground, whether the scheme is carried out now or not —I do not think there is any intention of occupying ground not covered by the scheme as regards Leeds; I have no such intention myself. 5999. I observe, in looking over White's Directory, that there is some information given as to the old waterworks; that, “about 1694 they were improved, “ and at different times in 1754, 1790, and in sub- “sequent years,” that “they pumped the water from “the river Aire at the bridge into a reservoir,” that “ they raised about 80 or 90 gallons a minute.” Are those facts correct?—I have no doubt that they are generally correct, but I cannot say that I know any- thing of the kind of my own knowledge. - 6000. What quantity do you propose to give a day, should you give 90 gallons a minute 2–130,000 gallons in a day. - 6001. What was the population of Leeds about the year 1836 or 1837?–I cannot say. 6002. It appears from the same directory that the inhabitants numbered 140,000, and that 60,000 of these had no supply from the waterworks. That number deducted from the 130,000 would leave 70,000, and the supply being 140,000 gallons a day would give about two gallons per day for the population at that time 2—Yes. 6003. Have you taken into account the increase of population from the beginning of this century down to the present time —No, I have not. º I find that in 1801 the census gave 53,000? — Y eS. 6005. The number increased in 1811 to 62,665; in 1821, to 83,943; in 1831, to 123,549; in 1841, to 150,234; in 1851, to 172,270; and in 1861, to 207,165, the population being at the present time about 240,000 P-Yes. 6006. For that population of 240,000 people what is your present supply of water 2–4,500,000 gallons. 6007. And 500,000 gallons of that will be taken by the manufacturers ?—Yes. 6008. Leaving 4,000,000 gallons for the population ? —Yes. 6009. What will that be per head?—A little over 16 gallons a head per day. 6010. Do you anticipate that the population will increase more rapidly in future years than it did increase between 1800 and the present time 2—I can- not say that I can form any very definite anticipation upon that subject. There may be more or less of increase, but upon the whole probably the tendency will be not to increase so rapidly as heretofore. 6011. If increase of population goes on at the same rate during the next 50 years, what will the popula- tion at the end of that time be, taking the population of 1801 to have been 53,000, and in 1861, 207,000?— If I take it in a similar proportion it would be of course about four times the present population, or about 800,000. 6012. If you look to the increase which has taken place you will see that it has been tolerably gradual throughout the 60 years, it has been increasing at the rate of 54 per 1,000 annually, or 3,000 per annum ? —That would make it 150,000 in addition to the pre- sent 240,000, or in round numbers 400,000. RIVERS COMMISSION:–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 187 6013. Supposing you provide 20 gallons per head for that population of 400,000 persons, what will that require?–8,000,000 gallons per day. 6014. What under your present Act is the limit of the volume of water you can draw from the wells?— 6,000,000 gallons. 6015. And how much from other sources?—We consider that we get about 1,000,000 from other SOurceS. 6016. That is 7,000,000 gallons which you have at present the power of obtaining —Yes, or thereabouts. . 6017. As far as population goes, even allowing 20 gallons per head per day, you have at present suffi- cient means of supplying for nearly the next 50 years the population of the borough proper ?–Taking that view of the case, undoubtedly it is so. 6018. What sum did the corporation pay for the waterworks to the old waterworks company P- 225,000l. 6019. To what expense have they gone since that time?—I think the capital account now stands at about 360,000l., as far as I can remember. 6020. What do you estimate you will want between this and the end of the century for manufacturers; do you anticipate that any large extra quantity will be required for them —I have no doubt that if we bring soft water into the town, there will be a very great increase in the consumption of it for manufacturing purposes, but what that will be I cannot say. 6021. What do manufacturers now pay for water 2 —Sixpence for 1,000 gallons. 6022. Do you think that they would take a largely increased quantity of soft water at the same rate 2–I think they would. 6023. Do you anticipate any very large increase in the quantity that will be required for manufacturing purposes, because in your estimate you are looking forward to 20,000,000 gallons being required before the end of the century; but according to the increase of population, a supply of 20 gallons a head would only come to about 8,000,000 gallons daily?—I have formed my estimate, not upon increase of population, but upon increase of consumption in water. I con- sider that consumption increases in a greater ratio than population. 6024. Have you made any calculation as to the con- sumption of 20 gallons per day per head P-I may mention that there has been a very great increase in the number of baths and waterclosets in Leeds, and particularly in waterclosets, they are both of them enormous consumers and wasters of water, and I have very little doubt that if the present system of increase in them continues they alone will largely swell our consumption. 6025. If consumption was increased from 20 to 50 gallons a day you would make out your requirement for 20,000,000 of gallons a day ?—Yes, taking popula- tion again in the same ratio. 6026. (Professor Way.) In the absence of water- closets, which you say are now increasing, how could 20,000,000 of gallons per day be used ?–There are now 3,000 waterclosets in the town; we are, therefore, not without them by any means, but they are not yet applied in anything like the proportion in which they may be used at a future day. I understood the officer of health to say, that his opinion was that it would be well if the watercloset system were applied to the poorer houses; but I am sure that if it is applied to them, unless regulations for prevention of waste are most stringent, and indeed if they are, an enormous increase will take place in consumption of water. In our better houses the use of baths which is now very much on the increase adds enormously to the con- sumption of water. I may give my own house as an example. I have a meter put on at my house and I pay about 4!. a year for water rate. I am using about 300 gallons of water a day for a family consisting of 10 in number, and that is 30 gallons per head. 6027. (Chairman.) Are you satisfied that the water is not used extravagantly —I know that we do not waste it. 6028. You are satisfied that 30 gallons per head are legitimately used?—Yes, but then how does it happen? It is mainly by the baths. I have two baths in my house and those are filled, one of them once a day, and the other twice every day. Each bath holds about 70 or 80 gallons, and in that way the water goes; they are both of them lying down baths. 6029. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you anticipate any in- creased consumption at all similar to that by the poorer classes —No, I do not think that is likely to happen. If there was a very great increase, however, in the system in the better class of houses that would soon run up our consumption. One is obliged in estimating to set quantity sufficiently high, and indeed my estimate has been found fault with as being too low. I do not think myself that it is too low, but that it is sufficient, abundantly sufficient. 6030. What is the metropolitan supply per head 2 —About 33 gallons a day. 6031. (Professor Way.) You are aware no doubt that in London water is very largely wasted 2–Out- rageously so; I know that well. We are on the con- stant system here, and we are obliged to watch the supply narrowly in order to prevent waste, but in spite of that it has occurred. 6032. (Mr. Harrison.) Are most of the houses sup- plied with water 2–Yes; the total number of houses by the census of 1861 was only 46,000. 6033. Your experience now with a constant supply is that people only take about 16 gallons a day P-Yes, that is so. 6034. With a power of taking what they like 2– Yes, with a power of taking twice that quantity if they please. 6035. Why should you think that they will want as much as 50 gallons in the course of 50 years if they take 16 now and may take 50 if they choose ?–But that is again referring to the question of 20,000,000 of gallons a day; I am anxious to make a sufficient pro- vision. I cannot say how they may be used. 6036. What is your estimate for carrying out the proposed works —For 20,000,000 gallons it is 317,000l. 6037. (Professor Way.) You anticipate probably a necessity for doing something with the sewage 2–I think it is very probable that if other towns are com- pelled to move Leeds will have to move also. 6038. Is it your opinion from what you have seen that something must be done with the sewage of towns —Yes, undoubtedly. 6039. Would the question of water supply depend in any measure upon dealing with the sewage 2–I do not think it would, although it might in Leeds and in many towns. 6040. Would not that be an item in your considera- tion if you felt that you had to pump the sewage to which the water contributes at an annual expense every day throughout the year?—It would be, of course. If we largely increase our water supply, we shall largely increase our sewage pumping undoubtedly. 6041. And you would make your difficulties greater in dealing with it?—No question of it. 6042. Without proposing to limit your water supply below what was necessary for the town, would you not wish to keep it as low as was sufficient to enable you to deal with the sewage better 2–Yes; that is one reason why I should wish to keep it low. I do not see why water should be wasted any more than bread or gas. I am at issue with those who entertain the opinion that you cannot send water too wastefully into a town. I think that you may send water much too wastefully and do no good by it, but on the con- trary, harm ; indeed I should be glad to see a system of meters for water introduced generally as it is for ra,S. 6043. (Chairman.) Are you acquainted with the mode of supplying water in Paris –I have read Mr. Burnel's paper upon it. 6044. Is the cottage supply given by an internal tap or by an external stand pipe?–Partly by one LEEDS. E. Filliter, Esq. 7 Nov. 1866, - - A a 2 188 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. E. Filliter, Esq. and partly by the other. The guard taps are about to be removed, and they are gradually being put inside the houses, and our consumption is increasing partly from that cause, because when a tap is placed over a sink the temptation to waste is very great. 6045. You think that leading the water inside the house tends to a larger consumption than leaving it in the yard from which people have to fetch it — Yes. 6046. Do you know Mr. Marten, the engineer to the Wolverhampton waterworks —Yes, very well. 6047. He stated his experience to be the contrary. You have an external stand pipe that is not capable of being easily tampered with ?–Yes, we have. 6048. Do you find that that external stand pipe is generally kept in order and not leaking —They do leak a little at times, but our turncocks re-leather them when they require it. I do not think much water is wasted by them, not so much as when water is laid on inside the house. - 6049. The kind of taps that you use the turncock who has charge of them can himself repair P-The guard taps cannot be repaired by the turncock, they have to be sent in to be repaired. 6050. Whose tap do you usually use for house ser- vice –The screw down tap of Messrs. Guest and Chrimes, three-eighths of an inch in diameter. 6051. Do you use for the service from the main lead or iron —Lead, invariably. 6052. For what reason do you use lead –For one or two reasons. First, because it has always been done, and next because I should feel uneasy at the idea of using wrought iron uncoated for soft water. I re- member at Wolverhampton, which you have alluded to, the very great difficulties that we had to contend with when waterworks there were first established. The water corroded the cast-iron pipes to a great extent. I fear that soft water passing along wrought iron pipes would corrode them very rapidly. I remember at Lord Robert Grosvenor's mansion at Moor Park in Hertfordshire being employed to remove a complete set of wrought iron pipes which supplied the house with soft water, and which had been so completely corroded that they were not useable ; the iron spoiled the colour of the water in the baths, for cooking, and for all other purposes. 6053. Do you know whether that was a constant supply, or an intermittent supply –It was a constant supply. The house was supplied from the reservoir in the grounds, about a quarter of a mile off, and water was kept constantly on. A further objection is that wrought iron is not flexible and not so well adapted to lay down for house supply. I think that what may be done with gas may be done with water. 6054. (Professor Way.) I think you stated that you thought manufacturers would use a good deal more water if it was softer than they do now 2–Yes. 6055. What class of manufacturers do you refer to? —Cloth dressers. I understand that to them it is of great importance whether they have hard or soft water ; it adds to the finish of the cloth after it has been through the processes of milling and finishing. I believe also soft water is good for dyeing, but for milling and finishing cloth, if hard water is used the cloth is left with an inferior feel upon it, which in the market is considered of great consequence, Soft water leaves a glossy finish upon it. 6056. What is the largest manufacturing trade in this district 2–The iron trade is becoming most im- portant, but manufacture of cloth is the staple trade of Leeds, and then the flax trade. 6057. Is tanning carried on 2–Yes, and lately it has very much increased; the manufacture of boots and shoes, and the leather trade generally. 6058. With regard to pollution of the river, which of those trades do you think adds most refuse ?— The iron trade, I think, does not injure the water at all except by ashes. Dyers are the worst because they throw in an immense quantity of dye wares. 6059. And tanners?—Yes, that trade is very ob- jectionable, but I do not think the quantity of refuse that is thrown in by tanners is anything like so great as that thrown in by the dyers. 6060. I suppose in the case of tanners soft water Would be of no value seeing that they use so much lime in their process –I should imagine so. 6061. Is it your opinion that if the manufacturers in this district were prevented from polluting the Water by their refuse it would be equally proper to deal with the town as to the discharge of its sewage 2 —Yes, I think so. 6062. Do you know which contributes most refuse to the river, the town population or the manufac- turers –I think probably that sewage does more harm than dyes. 6063. Therefore if any measure is adopted which does not deal with the sewage, the rivers will not be properly purified ?–Not at all. 6064. (Chairman.) Are there not some large iron works a few miles out of Leeds?—Yes. 6065. What is the stream that is crossed at that point -The Wharfe is the first river that you cross after passing through the tunnel; that, I think, is the Kirkstall Forge, and they throw an immense quantity of ashes and refuse into the river there; that is the river Aire. 6066. There is a great slag and cinder heap there parallel with the river ?—Yes, and it is within the borough of Leeds. 6067. Is there not more than one establishment of ironworks there —No, only Kirkstall Forge, but they are very large works. 6068. Who are the proprietors of those works 2– Messrs. Butler and Company, the firm used to be Beecroft and Butler. 6069. You have nothing to do with the river nor with that district, I assume 2–No. 6079. It does not interfere with your waterworks nor with the sewerage 2–No. 6071. Is that river at all navigable —No, it is not a navigable river; a few pleasure boats may be seen on the river at Kirkstall Abbey. The Leeds and Liverpool Canal does the navigation for the district. 6072. (Mr. Harrison.) You stated that the supply of water to the manufacturers from the wells had diminished of late years —Yes. 6078. Have you any particulars to give as to that 2 —No figures as to it, but we know the fact by the number of manufacturers who have been obliged to come to the waterworks company for a supply in consequence of the failure of their wells. 6074. Has that arisen from the sinking of more wells?--Partly so, but chiefly from a great deal of water, being pumped for the Low Moor Company out of some very deep wells at Beeston, 2,500,000 gallons a day, and we think that that is draining the district. 6075. Have you observed the quantity of water that passes down the Wharfe P-I have one or two men there, but we are not very favourably situated at Arthington for taking observations; I made one observation at Burley some years ago; I forget the particulars, but I recollect the result, that the flood had been bringing down something like 1,500,000,000 gallons a day. 6076. Would that have been a considerable flood? —Yes. 6077. Do you know the minimum quantity of water that passes down the Wharfe –It is stated as 24,000,000 gallons of water a day, but that I have not gauged. 6078. Have you taken any gaugings in the river Aire 2–None. 6079. (Professor Pſay.) Where most of the reser- voirs in the hills of the district or many of them are situated the drainage area is in mossy land 2–Yes. 6080. Is the water in all of them coloured with peat or at all times?–No ; but all of those that I am acquainted with on the millstone grit are coloured with peat, chiefly in autumn, and after heavy rains succeed- ing a dry summer. RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 189 6081. You stated that you had made arrangements to carry off the peaty water –Yes. 6082. Do you not think that if you were to drain a portion of the land on the margin of the reser- voirs and on the margin of the principal feeders, so that the water should not run over the surface into the reservoirs there or into the streams, but sink into the ground there, you get rid of the peat colour –I do not think so, because the forma- tion of the country is not favourable to that ; peat is chiefly to be found on summits of hills, the bottoms are all too well cultivated; there is grass land and some arable land. I have thought that dealing with the peat in situ I should not be able to face the difficulties. 6083. On peaty land the water immediately under the peat is not peaty, it is only when it comes to the surface that it becomes peaty, and therefore engineer- ing science might devise the means of keeping the peat, which is very objectionable –Yes. 6084. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the area of Wharfe- dale above your waterworks —Above Arthington Mills it is about 156,000 acres or 243; square miles. The witness withdrew. KIRKBY RoPINSON, Esq., M.D., examined. 6085. (Chairman.) You are officer of health for the borough of Leeds?—Yes, I have only been appointed since May last, and therefore have not any very elaborate tabulated statistics to give. 6086. How long have you been resident in Leeds 2 —Only since last June. 6087. Have you noticed the state of the river Aire since you have been resident here 2–My attention has been frequently drawn to it, and there is no question but that it is in a very polluted state. 6088. Have you visited the outlet of the existing sewerage works?—I have not been down to the outlet. 6089. Have you examined the condition of the different becks flowing into and through Leeds 2–Yes, I have seen all of them. 6090. In what condition are they —They are all in a very polluted state, some of them are much worse than others. 6091. Have you made any detailed inspection of those parts of Leeds where zymotic diseases prevail to the greatest extent —I have systematically gone to the localities where fever and diarrhoea have been prevalent, and I have found that disease has prevailed in those localities which are the worst drained and the most confined. 6092. Can you point out on the map the localities where you have found the greatest amount of pre- ventible disease ?—I have not had time to get together details of that nature. - 6093. What has been the death rate in Leeds during last year 2—For the first three quarters of the present year it was 33.8 per 1,000; it was 36.8 in the first quarter, 33:8 in the second quarter, and 31-0 for the last quarter. 6094. Is that an ordinary or a high death rate 2– It is unquestionably an abnormally high death rate. 6095. Have you any returns of the death rates for any number of years preceding this year —The rate of mortality in the township for the 10 years from 1851 to 1860, as given by the Registrar-General, was 28 per 1,000. 6096–8. What has it been for the present year up to the present time 2–33.8 in the borough. 6099. If you had confined the area to the township would the mortality have been greater or less –It would have been greater undoubtedly, but I have not got the details of it. 6100. What class of disease has prevailed this year to the greatest extent –Fever was very prevalent in an epidemic form throughout the year. It was prin- cipally typhus fever, although there were a few cases of typhoid or enteric fever. 6101. In what class of houses did you find the greatest amount of typhus fever ?–Those that I in- vestigated were chiefly in courts contiguous to places where privies were under or close to the houses, and where there were other sanitary defects, as bad drainage and overcrowding: 6102. Have you collected any statistics as to over- crowding 2—Overcrowding, no doubt, prevails in some districts of the town, but I should say not throughout the borough to the same extent as in other towns. If I take the last census in 1861 it gives something like 4.6 persons to each house. Wharfe. 6103. Has not there been a detailed report pub- lished by the Privy Council of an inspection that was made by Mr. Hunter some time ago in Leeds —Yes. 6104. At what date was that ?—Last year. 6105. Have you looked over that report —Yes, I have. - 6106. Have you inspected the places that he re- ported upon –Yes, I have seen most of them. 6107. Do you consider that that is a reliable re- port —I think it is reliable. 6108. You think it contains a fair representation of what Leeds was at that particular time —Yes; the birth rate, I may mention, is in excess by something like 44 for the present year, and that I think suggests the possibility of the population being rather under- estimated by the Registrar General. 6109. Are cleansing operations carried out pretty vigorously in Leeds, and have they been so during last summer ?—Yes; additional men have been put on by the nuisance committee and these operations have been carried on far more vigorously than they were. 6110. Do you think you have observed any bene- ficial effects 2–Certainly some of the back parts of the town present a very much cleaner aspect. The prospect of the advent of cholera caused increased vigilance in that respect. 6111. Has cholera visited Leeds in the last summer ? —Not as an epidemic ; there were two or three isolated cases. 6112. You succeeded in keeping it down —Pro- bably the low temperature and the greater amount of rain we had tended to clear the sewers and gullies and also the rivers and becks. Unquestionably all that tended to prevent that state of the atmosphere which would have favoured germination of zymotic diseases, especially diarrhoea and cholera. The isolated cases of cholera were, I believe, imported from Liverpool. 6113. Have you noticed in your investigations whether the private streets leading to this class of property are generally paved or are there many un- formed or unpaved streets which are dirty in wet weather? —There are many streets which are yet un- paved, but the streets committee are now exerting themselves; they are paving the streets now as rapidly as the contractors can get through the work, but there is still a great deal to be done in that direc- tion, not only in paving but in the extension of the drainage scheme, particularly in the out-townships and near the becks which are now open sewers in many of the out-townships, such as Bramley. They would be relieved of a great amount of filth which is now accumulating in them if the drainage scheme were extended. 6114. Are you acquainted with the water supply of Leeds 2—Yes, I am ; it is obtained from the river I think the present water is tolerably good and free from organic matter ; I have not analysed it myself but I have seen recent analyses of it, and I think they can be relied on. - 6115. In your investigations have you heard any complaints relative to the water supply being deficient or impure ?—There has been antipathy expressed to it on account of the Otley sewage running into it; many people wishing to use water from springs and wells and particularly what they call the Sps water. LEEDS. E. Filliter, Esq. 7 Nov. 1866. K. Robinson, Esq., M. D. A a 3 190 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 6116. Whether rightly or wrongly you do find that the contamination of the water by the Otley sewage and other sewage is considered objectionable –It is considered an objection. - 6117. And that, I presume, would lead in a certain degree to the avoidance of it –Yes; I think that ſilters are used very extensively in consequence of the fear that has been caused. 6118. Do you know the position of the gasworks in Leeds 2—There are two companies and they have branch establishments, but none situated on the banks of the rivers or becks. I believe that all the ammoniacal water and the gas tar are sent into the sewers, and descend in that way into the river at the outlet. - - 6119. Have any complaints been made to you as to the position of those works —There was one made not long since as to the exposure of the lime used to purify the gas, but that lime has been covered over lately. 61.20. You have not had any complaints made to ou?—No. 6121. Do you think that sanitary measures may be devised and carried out which would have any bene- ficial effect in reducing the large death rate in Leeds? —I have no doubt that if sanitary measures are vigorously prosecuted the death rate will be reduced. I believe there are existing causes which are keeping up an abnormal death rate, and there are many matters which will require time before they can be done away with. We have, for instance, something like 1,000 cellar dwellings, and we cannot turn all the people out at once beforefresh dwellings are found for them, that must be a work of time; and we have in addition a vast number of privies which abut on the gable ends of the houses and cottages; there are nearly 800 actually under the dwelling rooms. 6122. Have you seen any fever cases in those rooms? —I have seen a number of cases of diarrhoea in places contiguous to them, and some cases of diarrhoea in rooms over them. Underneath there has been a privy, and the smell has been frequently complained of, and in one of the cases of Asiatic cholera I found, although there were privies at the end of the house, there was no drainage to them, and the soil was per- colating through underneath; that had been frequently complained of by the people living in the basement. 6123. Would you recommend the removal of that class of privies from such situations?—I have recom- mended that they should all be converted into water- closets, and the town council have given directions that notices should be served upon the proper persons for the purpose of having the privies in the worst cases converted into waterclosets. 6124. Are you put officially in communication with the inspector of nuisances?—He is to a certain extent under my control and direction, but of course he is an independent officer of the council. 6125. In the event of your finding, upon an inspec- tion, a condition of things which, in your opinion, would cause an excess of disease, what course do you take?—The matter is brought before the nuisance and scavenging committee, and if anything is urgent, notices are at once served on the parties, that is, the owners of the property, and they are required to remedy the evil whatever it may be. 6126. In such cases do you report verbally or in writing 2—Small cases I report verbally, otherwise I should report them in writing in the monthly report that I render to the nuisance committee. 6127. Does the nuisance committee meet only once a month —They meet once a month. 6128. Is there any sub-committee that meets more frequently 2–No, with the exception of the smoke committee, and that I believe meets only once a month, but the smoke inspector is authorized by the council to take proceedings without requiring the sanction of any committee. 6129. Would it not be desirable for you to be able to refer such matters to a committee at shorter inter- vals than once a month?—In urgent cases I communi. cate with the chairman if I consider it necessary. 6.130. Has he authority to act alone?—He has a certain authority delegated to him by the committee, and I have no doubt that in any important matter a special meeting would be called by the chairman. 6131. Have you paid attention to the state of the public health in other parts of the country –Yes; I was officer of health at Birkenhead for two years, prior to coming to Leeds. 6132. What was the rate of mortality in Birken- head?—In the last year it was 21.3 per 1,000. 6133. What was the population of Birkenhead 2– I estimated it at 53,000. 6.134. Do you know what the mortality in Liver- pool was at the same time?—About 36 per 1,000. 6135. When you were at Birkenhead it was 21:32 —Yes. 6.136. Do you consider that there was anything in the atmosphere or in the sites of the dwellings to cause that great difference –There is no doubt that the limited area of Liverpool over which a dense popula- tion is distributed would materially affect the results On the other hand, Birkenhead is comparatively a new town. There are not there the numerous courts that there are in Liverpool, with all the sanitary evils which are handed down to them, and which are to be found in Liverpool. 6137. Are you acquainted with London 2–Yes. 6138. Is London as dense in population in its most crowded parts as Liverpool?—Yes, in the eastern parts of London. 6139. I mean as a whole 2–Yes. 6140. And are the population as immoral 2–I should say so, in the worst parts of London. 6141. Do you know what the mortality in the metropolis is 2–I know that it is something like 23 per 1,000 upon an average. 6142. Do you think that there are such differences that it would be worth while to make a very searching inquiry as to why Liverpool is so exceptionally un- healthy as compared with Birkenhead, its opposite neighbour, or with London, having a far greater popu- lation ?—I believe there is no doubt that Liverpool might be rendered much more healthy if vigorous sanitary measures were prosecuted. 6143. What was the mortality at the same time in Wallasey, Tranmere, or any of the adjoining townships to Birkenhead –In Tranmere it was rather higher, in Wallasey it was low. - 6144. What authority did you exercise in Birken- head –Birkenhead is governed by a body of com- missioners, who dedicated to me the sole power to act as I thought proper in sanitary matters with the direction of the inspector of nuisances and staff under him. 6145. Is Birkenhead better sewered than Leeds?— There is no doubt of it. It is very well sewered and drained throughout. 6146. With an outlet going into the Mersey – Yes. 6147. Is there an officer of health in Birkenhead now 2–Yes. 6148. What type of disease did you find in Birken- head in excess?—We were exposed to the frequent introduction of fever and other zymotic diseases from Liverpool. Asiatic cholera was introduced last year into Birkenhead from the ship “Helvetia.” 6149. Were there many resident Irish labourers in Birkenhead –Yes, in all parts of the town, especially in the courts and narrow streets. The Irish find em- ployment about the docks. 6150. Was there any excess of disease amongst that population ?—At one time there was, but after vigorous sanitary measures were taken there was no prevalence of any epidemic. 6151. You reduced the outbreaks of ſever in those quarters ?–Yes, the reduction took place in the preventible or zymotic diseases. 6152. Did you find any unwillingness on the part of the inhabitants to submit to necessary interference RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 191 with the view of cleansing their houses —The house- holders and agents, as in all towns, raised objections at first. 6153. You mean the persons who had to find the money?—Yes, interested persons. They did not see the value or advantage of yielding to one of the first principles of political ecºnomy, that private interests should yield to the public good, but they afterwards yielded. 6154. Did you meet with any opposition from the inhabitants themselves?–None whatever as a body. The commissioners were anxious that all sanitary measures should be carried out thoroughly. 6155. When an epidemic of any kind prevailed had you any difficulty in getting the dead bodies removed from the crowded tenements?—We had no mortuary chapel, but I always saw that the bodies were removed at once, and when it happened that a dead body was retained I communicated with the parochial authorities, and had it removed at their expense to prevent the retention of it in the house. 6156. Had you any difficulty with the Irish, who always desire to wake their dead 2–We had a certain amount of difficulty, but by offering to inter their dead gratuitously we generally overcame their ob- jection. - 6157. The river Mersey containing an enormous volume of tidal water, did you observe any foulness in it from the sewage of Birkenhead 2–No ; there was at times along the banks of the river at low water a certain amount of sullage, but not to any great extent so as to give off any bad odours. 6158. Were complaints ever made by steamboat passengers or any other persons passing along the river ?—No, and the people bathe along the banks constantly. 6159. No difficulty arose as to the pouring out of the sewage into the river ?–No, I think it was deo- dorised sufficiently to counteract that, and it was carried away by the tides. Then we had the sewers ventilated through charcoal baskets after I went there, for sometimes the tide when it rose had driven back the gases, and that had been complained of in the houses. I then brought the matter before the com- missioners, and the sewers were ventilated on Stenhouse's plan through charcoal baskets. 6160. How many ventilators were put on to the sewers?—I have no record of the number, but they were introduced systematically whenever a sewer was opened. 6161. Were the sewers in Liverpool ventilated on a similar plan 2–In some parts of the town they were ventilated by chimney shafts, but not to any ver great extent. They were not ventilated through charcoal baskets. 6162. Were they ventilated as well as at Birken- head 2–Not in anything like the same proportion. 6163. Do you attribute any excess of disease to the want of ventilating the sewers ?–Yes. When I have gone into a house where zymotic disease has prevailed there have been great complaints made of the effluvium which has risen through the traps, and the frequency with which it was let out in cottage dwellings caused the houses to be filled with bad gases. 6164. If the sewers had been ventilated externally there would have been less of that ?–Yes. The more sanitary measures are carried out the more perfect should the details be." 6165. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you give me the death rate in Leeds for some years past year by year 2–In the township of Leeds the death rate for five years, from 1860 to 1864, was 29-5. The death rate in the township for 10 years, from 1851 to 1860, was 28 per 1,000. 6166. Have you observed any ill effects of the river Aire upon the health of the population ?--Ishould say there is no question that in dry seasons the atmosphere must be contaminated to a great extent by the gases which arise from the polluted banks, and that has been complained of very much. In cases where parties have been prosecuted for private nuisances the officials have been taunted with the state of the becks and the river. - 6167. Have you been able to attribute any disease directly to the condition of the becks and river ?— No. 6168. I think you stated that at Birkenhead the sewage was carried away by the tide 2–Yes. 6169. Can you say whether the tide sets in there in the same direction on the flood and on the ebb tide P-It does not set in in the same direction. 6170. So that the sewage is carried away from the outlet, and is not brought back by the returning tide –Yes, it would be returned on the other side, if at all. 6171. That might account for your not finding any nuisance from the sewage in a tidal river ?–Yes, and perhaps much also depends upon the direction of the wind. - - The witness withdrew. Mr. ALFRED MoUNTAIN FowlFR (Leeds) examined. -- 6172. (Chairman.) You are the Borough Surveyor of Leeds 2—Yes. 6173. How long have you held that appointment : —About 16 months. 6174. Who was borough surveyor before you ?— Mr. Filliter, who has been examined. 6175. He is now acting with you as consulting engineer —Yes; under an Act of Parliament which empowers the corporation to have a consulting engineer for the sewerage works. 6176. You can therefore avail yourself of his experience when you think proper ?—Exactly so. 6177. What is the area of the borough of Leeds —It is about 34 square miles, which is represented by the part tinted brown on the cartoon map before OU!. 6178. How many different townships does that area comprise –There are 12 townships and three divisions of townships. The divisions are Headingley, Cam, Burley, and Kirkstall, in the township of Head- ingley, and also Culcoates in the township of Patter- newton. 6179. The local government of Leeds has been º consolidated I believe by Act of Parliament? —Yes. -- 6180. How many local governing bodies were there before this year 2–15 as far concerned. 6181. All these have been swept away, and are consolidated now under the Corporation ?—Yes. 6182. What is your present population within the borough 2–About 228,000 within the municipal borough ; that is what the Registrar General has returned. 6183. What number of tenements or houses have been erected during the last five years 7–Something like 5,127. 6184. May it be said that Leeds is a growing dis- trict 2–Yes, no doubt of it; it is growing very rapidly. 6.185. What is the rateable value of Leeds now 2– According to a return that I got out last year it was 593,778l. 19s. 1d. 6186. It will not be less now I suppose P-No, but considerably more ; I should say that the town has increased very rapidly in the last 12 months. 6187. What length of public highways have you now under your jurisdiction ?—We shall have now about 133 miles. 6188. About what length of main sewerage and drainage is there –The sewerage system is now as highways are nearly completed, and the corporation have given me LEEDS. - K. Robinson, Esq., M.D. – 7 Nov. 1866. Mr. A. M. Fowler. A a 4 192 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEIDS. Mr. A. M. Fowler. — 7 Nov. 1866. --- instructions to prepare designs for the whole borough, beginning with Bramley. Already there are about 94 miles of main sewers. 6189. What has been the gross cost of the main sewerage and drainage –The cost has been about 180,000l. 6.190. What are the dimensions of the largest sewer upon the cross section?—Our main outfall sewer is 7 feet 9 by 8 feet. 6191. Is it an egg-shaped invert, or a flat –It has a slight curve. 6192. It is a segmental invert —Yes. 6193. What is the volume of sewage that is dis- charged per day ?—I gauged it yesterday, and the discharge in cubic feet per minute is something like 1,271}. Gift. Are there not a number of becks that pass through the town —Yes. 6195. What are their names, taking the largest area 2–There is the Sheepscar Beck and the Hol- beck. 6196. The Holbeck area is 14,900 acres partly within and partly without the borough is it not ?— Yes. 6197. The Sheepscar Beck has an area of 11,320 acres partly within and partly without the borough * —Yes, 6198. Then the Barm Beck and the Dow Beck have an area of 2,080 acres partly within and partly with- out the borough 2–It is so. 6199. Are these the only becks that flow into and through Leeds 2—The red marks on the map show the gathering ground for these particular becks, and they have several tributaries, of course, which have other names. I have taken the names of the main trunks. 6200. Is there much sewage passed into these becks? —Yes, a great quantity. 6201. Is there much passed into the becks beyond the boundary of the borough 2–There is a little; but I have not examined minutely beyond the borough. 6202. Is there a town at Morley –There is a very large village there, and I think they have a local board. 6203. Then there is Gildersome 2—Yes. 6204. It that a small village 2–Yes. 6205. What is the other below it 2–Birstal. 6206. Is that a village 2–Yes. 6207. Does any sewage from those villages find its way into the different becks, and flow on to Leeds — Yes; unless they distribute it over the land. Beeston is not in our drainage district, but it is within the borough of Leeds; it has a system of sewers, but whether it is drained by the vestry or not I cannot say. It empties itself into the lower stream on the left-hand, and then it goes forward into the Wortley Beck, and passes through the town to a certain extent. 6208. If in Leeds you were to carry out the most perfect system of interception for yourselves, in order to prevent contamination within the borough, and you had no jurisdiction beyond the boundary of the borough, the stream might be contaminated by all those places lying outside the borough 2–Of course that would be so. 6209. Therefore, unless your jurisdiction should come down to the edge of the drainage area, you would be purifying your own streams, and be subject to impurities caused by persons outside –Yes; from those small villages. Morley is rather an extensive village I believe. 6210. Are those places growing 2—I think that Morley is, but I have not noticed the census returns. 6211. Are there any collieries under that part of the watershed to which you have referred 2–Yes, and iron mines. 6212. Where does the water that is pumped from the mines pass, does it go down into the becks?—It would pass out, and ultimately get into the Holbeck. * 6213. Have you prepared any list of the manufac- tories situated on these becks and rivers within the watershed areas, or within the area of the borough of Leeds?—I have prepared a list of the principal manu- factories with the number of hands that each firm employs, to give you an idea of the extent of each establishment. (The return will be found printed at the foot of the evidence of the witness.) 6214. How did you obtain that?—I prepared it with assistants in my own office; they obtained the information on the ground from inquiries made from time to time. 6215. Has that return been laid before the town council or before the board 2–No. 6216. (Professor Way.) Did the manufacturers themselves furnish you with the particulars of these returns —Yes, or their assistants. 6217. They knew what the object of making the inquiry was 2–No doubt of it. 6218. Do you know whether any refuse from any of these manufactories is utilized in any way or puri- fied before the waste material is passed into the streams?—I do not know. 6219. If it is not so purified, I suppose it is passed into the nearest stream or sewer, and then it goes into the river ?—Exactly. 6220. I believe that at the dyeworks they pass the dye water into the becks?—I believe they do. 6221. It may be seen there may it not ?–Yes, in large quantities at times. 6222. And tan refuse also 2–I have not examined minutely the tan yards, and I cannot say for a certainty whether they pass any refuse into the stream. 6223. Do you know the length of the river from Malham Tarn to its junction with the Calder 2–It is about 54% miles. 6224. What is the area of the gathering ground?— About 350 square miles, that is the area above the sewer’s outfall. 6225. What is the length of the Sheepscar Beck? —That is about 9 miles and 6 furlongs, taking the stream along the valley. 6226. What is the length of the Holbeck 2–About 11 miles and 1 furlong. 6227. What is the length of the Barm Beck?— About 2 miles and 3 furlongs, and the Dow Beck is about half a mile; the Bengon Beck is 7 furlongs, and that is covered. 6228. Has there been any systematic cleansing of the rivers or becks through Leeds since your appoint- ment —No, but they have been cleansed out several times by the Corporation. 6229. What kind of manufactures give the greatest amount of impurity ?—I should say dyeworks. 6230. With regard to the discolouration of the water? —Yes. If the tanyard people sent their refuse into the river, no doubt they would cause also very great nuisances. 6231. Have you noticed whether any of the iron makers send ashes into the streams or rivers ?—I have not. 6232. Have you noticed the state of the river during very dry seasons?—Yes, but the river Aire has so many dams on its course through the town; there are nine or 10 weirs and dams, and you do not see the bed of the river except very seldom. 6233. Has it been proposed to improve the condi- tion of the becks passing through the town 2–Yes, the corporation have sought for further powers in their Improvement Bill of this year to enable them to cover them in, or invert them as is done in Lan- cashire. 6234. They wall the sides where they are unpro- tected and pave the channels –Yes, they so invert them that they increase the velocity of the stream. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 193 6235. Have you seen the improvements which have been carried out in Blackburn and Bolton —No, I have not. 6236. Is there much sewering going on now – Yes, a great quantity. 6237. Where are the outlets made 2–Into the ex- isting system which was designed by Mr. Leather, passing on to the main outfall, where you see that dark branch on the large map on the right-hand side, that is some 57 feet above the Ordance datum line, and the figures “50 * show where the 50 feet contour crosses the river. 6238. Then you have 7 feet of fall between the 57 and the 50 *—Yes. 6239. Have you any control over the introduction of sewage from waterclosets into any of the drains or sewers ?—No, the waterclosets are connected with the Sewel's. 6240. If any person occupying any offices or build- ings of any kind, or cottages; wishes to convert the privies into waterclosets, must he give you notice — Yes, and he must give the officer of health notice also. 6241. Have you cognizance of any such application being made 2–Not necessarily so. I do not know that they often do it, except the officer of health com- pels them to alter the state of the privies. For in- stance, where there are buildings over privies, in such cases the privies are converted into waterclosets. 6242. Do you allow the parties to do the work, or do you do it for them, and charge them the cost 7–No, they do it themselves. 6243. Have you no establishment or staff for the purpose of carrying out that kind of work for the ratepayers ?—None whatever. The only difficulty that we have is, where these old privies exist in con- fined courts and alleys, we then have a difficulty in finding them a place instead of the existing privy; sometimes we find that bedrooms are built over privies, and it is necessary to remove them. 6244. Do you think that the owners can carry out these alterations as economically as you could if you had a staff of men to employ for that special purpose 2–I think so, because the places are so small, and the expense would not amount to much. 6245. Do you superintend the work while it is in progress —Only with reference to the Act as to the size of the waterclosets. The Act empowers us to have them made 3 feet wide, 5 feet long, and 7 feet high. 6246. Do you dictate the size of the connecting drain P-Yes. 6247. Then as to the junction with your own sewer, do you allow the parties to make that, or do you do it?—They put in the first pipe, but we examine the connexion. 6248. Do they pay you for being allowed to put it in 2–No. 6249. Have you found many stoppages in private drains —Yes, where the work has been done privately. I do not know of any cases in works done by the corporation. 6250. You do find stoppages occasionally —Yes. 6251. (Mr. Harrison.) I believe Bramley is within the borough of Leeds 2—Yes. 6252. Is Bramley sewered 2–No, it is not. 6253. What is the condition of the village of Bramley as to health —The death rate I have not noticed ; I should know nothing of that. The officer of health could answer that question. The state of the sewerage is bad. 6254. But Bramley is within the limits of the borough 2–Yes. - 6255. And the sewerage you know is bad?—Yes. Most of it runs on to the surface; for instance, from the sink stones. I may mention that the corporation have passed a resolution giving me instructions to draw out plans and a design for this district, on the south side of the river, to connect the same with our system of sewerage. 6256. Have you looked into the question of apply- ing sewage to land 3–No, not as yet. 6257. You have not taken any levels of the meadows below your outfall —No, I have not gone into that question ; but there is a resolution of the council giving instructions to me and the engineer to report as to the best means of utilizing sewage, or what can be done to purify the river below the sewers outfall. The dark tint on the map shows the present drainage district, with the district and parish of St. John's, Wortley, which is a district that we have lately added. The Wortley and Holbeck sewers, as shown there, have been designed by me, and they are before the engineer for him to certify. 6258. (Professor Way.) In case of any additional sewerage for the town of Leeds being carried out, should you be likely to take the outfall to the same place for the additional work —I think that by con- structing storm outlets to our present system, we can connect the whole borough with our present system. 6259. Would the application of the sewage to land be less or more difficult if the sewage were all dis- charged at one spot P−That is a question that I should say must depend upon the quantity of land you had below the sewer's outfall. 6260. Supposing that the land is to be the destination of the sewage, that would make a difference in your view as to any future sewerage of the town –Yes. The witness withdrew. 17159.-2, B. b LEEDS. Mr. A. M. Fowler. 7 Nov. 1866. -- RETURN put in by A. M. Fowl.ER, Esq., C. E., Borough Surveyor (referred to supra, Qu. 6213). RIVER, AIR.E. Cloth Woollen Tanners Waste Worsted Linen - - Iron or 1- Glue Flax Paper Oil Corn Saw I Miscel- Name of Works or Street. Name of Occupier. º Dr.ers Dyers. * C or Workers. Mongo * Works. * c- Spinners. yº. Mills. Mills. Mills. laneous. º Finishers. urers. urriers. Dealers. urers. - 1. Kirkstall Road - Alderman Botterill - - || – — 275 - - - - - - - - - I - I - I - - - 2. Aire Place Mill, Kirk- W. E. R. Walker - - — - - - — — — 20 - - - - – – – I — I — I — stall Road. - 3. Wellington Tannery, T. Talbot - - - - - - - 24 - - - - - - - I - I - I - I - Kirkstall Road. Use Privies con- 4. Kirkstall Road - - Whitham and Son - - || – - - - - 600 - - - - - - I - I - I - I - { nected with 5. Kirkstall Road - - — Robinson - - - — - - – — - - - - 120 - - - - - - - - - - River. 6. Armley Mills - - || Benjamin Gott and Sons - - I 100 || – - - - - - - I - I - I - I - I - 7. Burley Mill - - W. B. Holdsworth and Co. – - – I - – – - - - - 420 - - - - - - - - - - 8. Abbey Mill, Kirkstall James Webster and Son - || – — — 300 - - - - - - - I - - - - - - - - - 9. Bentley's Wharf, Water | S. Bentley and Son - — — — - - - 12 - - - - I - I - I - I - I - Lane - - 10. Water Lane - - W. S. Shepherd - - - — — - - - 15 - - - - - I - I - I - I - 11. Bowman Lane Dye | William Kitchen - - - - 30 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Works - - 12. Clarence Iron Works - Taylor Brothers and Co. - a — — - - 500 - - - - - - I - I - I - I - 13. Victoria Chemical William Armitage - - 31 — — - - - - - - - - - 1 - 1 - 1 - - Works, South Accom- modation Road. - 14. Airedale Felt Works, Wilkinson and Fillingham - - — — 3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - South Accommoda- - tion Road. - - 15. Airedale ChemicalWorks Hirst Brooke and Tomlinson 14 - - - - - - - - - - T | T | T | T | T (Privies connected 16. Hunslet Mills - - Messrs. Wilkinson and Co. - - - - - - - - - - — 1,500 - I - I - I - I - } with River. 17. Water Mills - - Messrs. Wilkinson and Co. - - - 4 - - - - - - - - - I - I - I - I - 18. Hunslet Low Road - Messrs. Varley and Sidgwick - - - - 6 - - - - - — – | – | – || – 19. Hunslet Paper Mills - || Hastings and Mellor - - — - - - - - - - - - — 120 | – | – | – || – 20. Low Gate Mills - Lister Brothers and Co. ... - || – - - - - - - 200 - - - — — | T | T | T (Privies connected 21. Sovereign Street - Titley, Tatham, and Walker | – — — - - - - 200 - - - — | – || – || – || – { with River. 22. Ditto - - Benjamin Stocks and Son - - - - - - - - - - - - 50 || – - I - I - 23. Wellington Mill, Wel- || Messrs. Hirst and Whitehead — — 100 - - - - - - - - — — 1 - || – || – lington Bridge Street 24. Sovereign Street - - || Wild and Crossley - - - — — - - 36 - - - - - — — — — — 25. Ditto - - Ellershaw and Sons - || – — — - - - - - - - - — 14 — — — 26. Off Sovereign Street - George and Richard Mortimer — — — - - - - - - - - — — | – | – | 150 27. Tenter Lane - - Moorhouse and Thistlewaite — - - - - - - - - - - - — — | – | 20 28. Tenter Lane - - || Robert Hudson and Co. - || – — — - - - - - - - - — | – | – | – | 100 29. Flay Crow Mills, off John Dyson - - || – — — - - - - - - - - - — — — 21 Tenter Lane. 45 — 409 | 403 24 1,142 47 | 400 | – || 540 1,500 170 14 || – || – 201_ \ Y Number of Hands carried forward. £ RETURN put in by A. M. FowlFR, Esq., C.E., Borough Surveyor (referred to supra, Qu. 6213). RIVER AIRE–continued. : Cloth Waste - - Woollen Tanners Worsted Linen. Flax Paper Oil corn Saw Miscel- Remarks upon Name of Works or Street. Name of Occupier. º pººr. Dyers. Manufac- or wº. Mºngo * wº. Manufac-spinners. . Mills. Mills. Works. laneous. . i. Finishers. turers. Curriers. Dealers. turers. turers. Brought over - 45 — 409 | 403 24 1,142 47 400 - 540 1,500 170 || 14 || – | – || 291 . Neville Street - - - - Nussey - - - - 30 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - . Neville Street - - W. Pearson and Co. - - - - 100 - - - - - - - - I - I - I - - . Sandford Street - - Thomas W. Appleyard - - - - - 70 - - - - - - - - - - - - - . Airedale Saw Works, — Bulmers - - - - - - - - - - – – - — — — 11 - Kirkstall Road. . Whitehall Road - - George Leach and Co. - - 225 - - - - - - – – - - I - I - I - - : . Whitehall Engineering Gallon, Lumb, & Co. and - - - - - 200 - – – – - - I - I - I - - º: Works. others 170 hand tr; . Park Mills, Wellington St. Benjamin Gott and Sons - - — 700 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | ... - ? ... Wellington Mill, Welling- || D. and T. Cooper and - 500 - - - - - — — - - - I - I - I - - nected with o ton Bridge Street. another River. 3 ... Wellington Foundry, Kirk | Messrs. Fairburn and Co. - - - - — 2,000 - – – - - - - - - - - - - 3. stall Road. - 7. . Airedale Mill, Kirkstall Rd. — Glover - - - 33 — — - - - — – - - - I - I - I - - 2 . Rirkstall Road - - Messrs. Musgrave - - - 20 - - - - - - - - - I - I - I - - 3 . Kirkstall Road - - || William Walker - — — 38 — - - - - - - - - - - - - || – || – || Privies con- ºr . Kirkstall Road - - — Fawcett - - - - — 8 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - { nected with | . Rirkstall Road - - Eli Dalton - - - - 12 - — " — - — — - - - - - - - - - River. = . Aire Tannery, Kirkstall Rd. | Messrs. Walker & Dixon - - - - 30 - - - - - - - I - I - I - - % . Kirkstall Road - - — Wilkinson - - - - - - - - - 100 - - - - - - - - - - - - . Kirkstall Road - - — Padgett - - - - — 253 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ; . Kirkstall Road - - — Topham - - - - 70 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - c . Savings Mill, Kirkstall Rd. | Thomas Gray - - - - - 25 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - H . Kirkstall Forge - - Messrs. Butter and Co. - - - - - — 1,500 - - - - - - I - I - I - - : . Airedale Dye Works, Kirk- Hague and Billington - - — 300 - - - - - - - - - 1 - - - - - - : stall Road. 3. . Newlay - - - - Clarke, Thackray, & Co. - - - - - - - 20 - - - - I - I - I - - Ž . Newlay - - - || Messrs. Tunstall Brothers 12 — - - - - - - - - - - I - I - - - F. . Newlay - - - - | Priestman - - — — — — - - - - - - - — | – || 8 || – - . Victoria Mill - - || Peter Willans - - — 100 — — - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - T | I Privies con- . Kirkstall Road - - - || Messrs. Wood & Bedford 16 || – | – || – - - - - I - - - - - - - - - - - nected with . Horsfall Dye Works, Kirk- Frederick Blackburn - — 100 – – - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - River. stall Road. | . Kirkstall Road - - | Reffitt and Co. – - - 224 - - - - - - - - - - I - I - I - - . Kirkstall Road - - T. W. George and Co. – - 150 — — - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - *.*.* Joppa Tannery, Kirkstall Rd. Richard Nichols - - - - — — 00 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - !. with =- River. 73 1,332 887 1,481 424 (4,842 47 520 - 540 1,500 170 14 8 11 201_ *— Y- Number of Hands carried forward. RETURN put in by A. M. FowlFR, Esq., C.E., Borough Surveyor (referred to supra, Qu.6213). RIVER AIRE–continued. { | | Cloth - Waste Linen | -- - - Chemical Dressers Dy W.. Tanners Iron or Yº. Glue | Manu- | Flax º Oil cºm Saw Miscel- Name of Works or Street. Name of Occupier. Works. or yers. . *|, ...". Workers. Mongo "ºº" Works, fac. |Spinners. Mills. Mills. Mills. Mills, laneous. Finishers. urers. Curriers. |Dealers. turers. turers. | - Brought over - - 73 1,332 887 1,481 424 4,842 47 520 - 540 1,500 170 | 1 8 11 291 60. Thomas Smith - - - - - — — 12 - - - - – | – || – || – || – || – | 1. Off East Street - James Smith - - — - - - - - - - - - — | – || – — | – || 6 | 62. Swinegate - - || William M'Clean - - - 3 — — - - - — – | – | – || – || – | – || – | 63. Calls - - Palmer and Wyles - - - - — — - - - - – – || – || – | – || – | 12 64. East Street - - || William Brayshaw and - - 19 — — - - - - – – — — — — — . Sons. 65. Fearne's Island - || Musgrave Brothers - - - 15 - - - - - - — — — — — — — . 66. Ditto - Croysdale Brothers - - - 60 - - - - - - —- — - I - I - I - - 7. Ditto - S. D. Dixon and Sons - - - 12 - - - - - - — | – | – || – || – || – || – 68. Ditto - Josh. Waddington - - - 12 - - - - - - - - — | – | – || – || – 69. Bank Mills, East Street Ives and Atkinson - - - - - - - - - - — 1,400 - I - I - I - I - 70. East Street - - Joshua Briggs - - - - - - 16 - - - - - - - I — I — I - I - 71. Low Fold Mills - || Thompson, Watson, and - - - - 32 - - - - - - - I - I - I - I - White. 72. East Street - - John Ramsden’s executors - - 5 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 73. York Street Mills - || John Purchon - - - 60 - - - - - - - - - - I - I - I - I - 74. Low Fold Mills - || Hartley and Turner - - - - 40 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 75. Ditto - Messrs. Hartley and Co. - - - - 95 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 76. Low Fold, off East Greenwood and Battey - - - - - - 250 - - - - - - I - I - I - I - Street. 77. Ablon Foundry, off Garside and Sons - - - - - - 22 - - - - - — | – || – || – || – East Street. 78. Low Fold Mills - Brown, Rhodes, and Co. - - - - 50 - - - - - - — — | – | – | – || – 79. Ditto - J. Carter - - - - - 15 - - — — - - - — | – | – || – || – 80. Ditto - John Laycock - - - 7 - - - - — || – - - - - — | – | – || - 81. Ditto - J. Booth and Sons - - - - 2O - - — — - - - — | – || – || – || – 82. Ditto - Ellis and Whitaker - - - - 30 - - — — - - - - — — — — 83. Kings Old Mills,Swine- Rushworth Brothers - - - - - - - — — - - - – — — — 15 gate. 84. Victoria Mill - - Roger Shackleton and Sons - - - — — - - — — - - — — — — 10 85. School Close Mill - J. and W. Whiteley - - - — 200 - - – – || – - - — — - I - I - 86. Bishopgate Street - Hirst, Brook, & Tomlinson 40 - - - - - – — - - - – – | – || – || – | 118 1,399 |1,013, 1931 472 5,126 47 520 | – || 540 |2,900 170 14 || 8 || 11 334, \ N- Total number of Hands, 14,598. { Remarks upon solid Refuse. Privies connected with River. Privies connected with River. 30 men use pri- vies connected with River. 6 men use pri- vies connected with River. g 3. : RETURN put in by A. M. FowlFR, Esq., C.E., Borough Surveyor (referred to supra, Qu. 6213)—continued. SHEEPSCAR BECK. Cloth Linen N- Number of Hands carried forward. -L ---- S. | Woollen Tanners - - - Name of Works or Street. Name of Occupier. º Dºº Dyers. Manufac- or sº wº. A. wº. * º i. * sing Remarks on solid Refuse. Finishers. turers. cºin. turers. 87. Bank Low Mills, Mill Street James Holdforth and Sons - - — — - - - - - - - - — — 450 88. Worsted Street - - || Edward Wilson - - - - 4 — - - - - - - — – || – - 89. Grace Street Mill - - Wright Brothers - - 5. — — — - - - - — — — — - 90. Duke Street - - John Westbrook - - - - — — - - 20 — - - - - - - - - - 91. Providence Spindle Works | Rathbone and Crabtree - - - — — – - 30 - - - - - - - - - - 92. Hope Foundry, Mabgate - Samuel Lawson and Sons - - - - - — 1,300 - - - - - - - - - - 93. Mabgate Mill - - Joseph Broadhead - - - - — — - - - - - 4 — — - 94. Mabgate Mills - - John Morfitt - - - - - - - 400 - - - - - - - - - - - 95. Cherrow Row, Mabgate - || William Dickinson - - - - - - — 20 - - - 1 - 1 - 1 - - 96. Mushroom Street, New Walker, Quickfall, and Co. 8 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Town. 7. Low Close Mill, New Town Hardwick Brothers - - 120 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 98. Sheepscar Dyeworks -- Holroyd and Co. - - - - 140 || – - - - - - - - - - - - - - 99. East Street, No. 53 - John Crawford and Sons - 150 – — - - - - - - - - - - - - - 100. Sheepscar Foundry - Jº Hezmalhalch and - - - I - - - 20 - - - - - - - - - On S. | 101. Sheepscar Chemical Works | William Watson and Co. - 11 - - - - - - - - - 1 - 1 - - - - 102. Sheepscar Works - - || Wilson and Walker - - - - - - - - — 250 – — – — — 103. Buslingthorpe Tannery - W. L. Jackson - - - - - - 90 - - - - — — — — — 104. Buslingthorpe Works - James Stanilands Stocks - - - - 108 - - -- - – – | – | – || – and Co. 105. Springwell Works - James J. Flitch and Sons - - - -- 120 - - - - - - - - - - - - 106. Grove Mill, off Meanwood George Walker and Sons - - - - - - - - - 40 — — — - Road. 107. Grove Dyehouse - - Lee and Sharp - - - - 20 - - - — — - - - - - - - - - 108. Meanwood Tannery - || William and Samuel Smith - I - - - 60 - — — - - I - I - I - - 109. Weetwood Paper Mill (for- || William Hill - - || – | – | – || – - - - — — 12 | – | – | – || – merly). 110. Meanwood Tannery - || Edward Kitchen - - - - - 15 - - - - - I - I - I - - | 111. Dolphin Foundry, Steander | Thomas Campbell and Son - - - - - - 90 - - - - - - - - - - 112. Steander Mills, off East Messrs. Leadley - - - - — 100 - - - - - - - - - - - - - Street. 113. 17, East Street - John Ramsden - - - 7 - - - – — - - - - - - - - - 114. East Street - James Bradley - - — — - - - — 8 || – - - I - I - I - - 115. Crown Point Axle Works James Leach and Co. – - - - - - — 6 - - - - - - - - - - 19 275 T171 100 || 393 || 400 1,494 | – || 250 52 || 4 || – | – || 450 RETURN put in by A.M. Fowler, Esq. C.E. Borough Surveyor (referred to supra, Qu. 6213). SHEEPSCAR BECK–continued. Name of Occupier. Name of Works or Street. 139. 116. 117. 118. 119. 120. 121. 122. 123. 124. 125. 126. 127. 128. 129. 130. 131. 132. 133. 134. 135. 136. 137. 138. Albert Mills - - Harper Street - - Mill Garth Mills, Dyers Street. Mill Garth Mills – -, Ditto Mill Garth Street. Lady Bridge Mill - Lady Bridge Iron Works - 45, Templar Street - Byron Street Mill - - Skinner Lane Works - Ditto - Providence Works, Stam- ford Street. Ditto ditto - Sheepscar Works, Barclay Street. Sheepscar Foundry - Sheepscar - Sheepscar Tannery Sheepscar Mill - - Oatlands Mill - - Prussiate Works, Woodhouse Carr. Carr Mills, Buslingthorpe - Ditto - Ditto - Ditto - Brought forward -- J. D. Thorpe - - Thomas Hall and Co. - Alfred Robinson -- Thomas Smith and Sons - J. T. Fleck - - Benjamin Snell and Co. - Joseph Binns and another J. T. Pearson - - Charles Atkinson - J. F. Stead Crowther and Co. - Mark Richardson and Co. William Richardson -- Broadhead and Sons - John Hezmalhalch & Sons Stead and Simpson - Ditto - J. Ripley and Son - Edward Taylor and Son - William Foster - Wrights and Bayles - Benjamin Wood - - J. L. Clarkeson - - George Dixon - - Cloth - Chemical Dressers. Woollen Tanners Flax Iron Mongo || Glue * |Corn Saw Oil Silk |Bonel Remarks on Works. and Dyers. Manufac- and Spinners. Workers. Dealers. Works. ** *Mills. Mills. Mills. Spinners. Mills. solid Refuse. Finishers. turers. Curriers. turers. 19 275 171 100 393 || 400 1,494 — 250 52 || 4 ||—||—|| 450 – - - - - - - - - - - 15 — | – | – || – - - - - - - - - - - — 80 || – - || – - - - 400 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 40 - - - - - - - - - - – - || – || 2 drop privies. - - - 70 - - - - - — – || – | – || – - - - - 200 - - - - - – — — — — - - - -- - - - 4 - - - - - - - - - - - - — — | – || – | – | – || – || – | – | – | – | – || – || – º - - I - - - - - I - = | – || || |-|--|-| – |- - - - - - - - — — 90 | – || – || – | – || – 12 - - - - - - — — - - - - - - — — - - - - - - — 13 — — - I - I - I - I - - - - - - 10 - - - - — – || – | – | – | – | 1 drop closet. - - - - - - - - - - — — 10 || – - – | – || – || – | | | – | 20 | – || – || – |-|--|-| – – - - - - 60 - - - - — | – | – || – || – || – — | – || – || – || 95 || – || – || – || – || – || – | – | – || – || – - - - 50 - - - - - - - — — — — - - - 200 - - - - — — – | – || – - - 16 - - - - - - - - - — — || – — — - 50 - - - - - - - - - - — — — — - 3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - – | – || 3 | – | – | – | – || – | – || – | – || – |-| – || – - - 10 - 7– – || – - - - - - - – | – || – || – | -- - 47 328 184 1,060 558 400 | 1,531 - 250 312 19 80 | 1 450 | 12 - J ~~ Total number of Hands, 5,241. # £ : RETURN put in by A. M. FowlFR, Esq., C.E., Borough Surveyor (referred to supra, Qu. 6213). HOLBECK. §. 1 º - allu- Woollen Tanners Flax Iron an Corn | Saw I Miscel- Name of Works or Street. Name of Occupier. *.*.*.*.c. spinners, wºrs. ..." |Mii. Milliºn. Remarks. Dressers. facturers. 140. Water Hall Mills - - - Titley, Tatham, and Walker - - - - - 250 - - - - - - - 141. Ditto - - - Armisted and Company - - - - - - - — — 40 142. Holbeck New Mills – - - George Lockwood - - 80 - - - - - - - - - - - 143. Ditto - - - Joseph Barrett - - - - 23 - - - - - - - - - 144. Ditto - - - Walker and Chadwick - - - 50 - - - - - - - - 145. Britannia Mill, Holbeck Lane - Benjamin Mortimer and Sons - - - - - - - - 9 — — 146. Star Foundry, Wortley Lane - Charles Cluderay - - - - - - - 13 - - I - I - 147. Wellington Mill, ditto - - Seanor and Company - - - - - - - - - — | – || 45 148. Royd's Mill, Wortley Beck - - Pearce, Ellis, and Trippleton - - - 25 - - - - - I - I - 149. Walker Mill - - - George Brown - - - - - - — — 140 - - - - - 150. Wortley Saw Mill - - - Daniel Hinchcliffe and Co. - 128 - - — — - - - - - - 151. Farnley Saw Mill - - - Hargreave and Nussy - - 40 - - - - - - - - - - 152. Stone Bridge Works - - | Porson and Co. - - - 214 - - - - - - - - - 153. Stone Bridge Mill, Armley - - Francis Halliday - - - 30 - - - - - I - I - 154. Farnley Corn Mill - - - Clough Brothers - - - - - - - - - 4 — — 155. Hough End Mill - - - || Jacob Ackroyd and Sons - - 33 - - - - - - I - - - 156 Ditto - - Sutcliffe and Crabtree - - - - - — — 40 - - - - - 157. Ditto - - - James Mercer - - - - - 40 — — - - - - - - 158. Hough End Tannery - - George Haste - - - - - - 30 — – - - I - 159. Beeston Road Tannery - - Smith, Beacock, and Tanet - - - - - Fºo 600 - - I - - - 160. Marshall Street -- - - Marshall and Company - - - - - 2,700 - - - - - - - 161. Midland Junction - - - - Taylor, Wadsworth and Co. - - - - - - 150 - - - - - - 162. Holbeck Mills - - - Pearson and Sons - - 150 - - - - - - - - - - 163. Victoria Mill, Holbeck - - John Hiscox - - - 100 - - - - - - - - - - - 164. Low Mills, Low Wortley - - || Hargreve and Nussy - - - - 400 - - - - - - - - - 165. Butter Bowl Mills, North-east of B. Barker and Sons - - 80 - - - - - - - - - - - Farnley. - - - - - - - - - 166. Far Hough Mill - - - Clough Brothers - - - - - - - - - 4 — - 167. Upper Mill - - - - Jno. Ingham and Sons - 30 - - - - - - - - - - 168. Union Bridge Mill - - - || Benjamin Crowther and Son - - - 60 - - - - - - - - - To T3 35s To 2,950 || 763 || 1so 17 – s; \– — N- Total number of hands, 5,508 RETURN put in by A. M. Fowler, Esq., C.E., Borough Surveyor (referred to supra, Qu. 6213). BENYON BECK. Cloth | -- - Manu- Flax Iron - Name of Works or Street. Name of Occupier. * Spinners. Workers. Saw Mills. Remarks. Dressers. 169. Globe Works, Water Lane - - - - Joseph Green - - - - — 30 — 170. Great Wilson Street - - - - - Ellis and Lumb - - - 90 || – || – - 171. Great Wilson Sereet - - - - - W. B. Kirk - - - - — — 100 - 172. Old Victoria Foundry, Great Wilson Street - - Ellison Brothers - - — — 20 - 173. Victoria Road - - - - - - John Atkinson - - - — — - 80 174. Victoria Screw Works - - - - - George Wilson - - - – – 26 - 175. Benyon Mills - - - - - - Joseph Hodgson - - - 70 — — - 176. Victoria Road - - - - - - Burnley and Nicholls - - - — — 100 - 177. Siddel Street - - - - - - Messrs. Green - - - - 300 || – - 160 300 276 so \ ~~ Total number of hands - 816 - - - BALM BECK. - - - - Chemical Tanners Flax Iron Name of Works or Street. Name of Occupier. Works. cº- Spinners. Workers. Remarks. 178. Vulcan Foundry, Low Road - - - - J ubb, Dawson, Wood - - - - - - 12 179. Low Road Chemical Works - - - - John Jubb - - - - 2 — -- - sº- . . ) . Q :-- 180. Ditto - - - - Usholsenthome - - - — — - 12 I º º .* 8 cwt. of lime 181. Ditto - - - - || Atha, Brothers - - - —- 20 - - used I - 182. Waterloo Iron Works - - - - - R. U. and T. Garside - - - – — - 90 183. Hunslet Flax Mill - - - - - Messrs. Briggs - - - — – 1,000 - 184. Hunslet Carr, near Seven Arch Bridge - - - Messrs. Gothard - - - || – || – - 9 185. Hunslet Carr - - - - - - Samuel Warburton and Sons - - 14 || – - - 1 privy into beck. 186. Carr Moor Side Works - - - - - || Messrs Tunstall - - - 4 — - - 187. Carr Moor Side Works - - - - - Richard Kilburn - - - || – || – - 30 20 20 | 1,000 | 153 | \- ~~ J Total number of hands - 1, 193 Š RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 201 RETURN put in by A. M. FowlFR, Esq., C.E., Borough Surveyor (referred to supra, Qu. 6213). DOW BECK. 188. 189. 190. 191. 192. 193. 194. 195. 196. 197. 198. 199. 200. 201. 202. 203. 204. Name of Works or Street. Hunslet Road - - Goodman Street - - Ditto - - Atkinson Street Goodman Street - - Albert Works, Donnis- thorpe Street. Pym Street, Hunslet Road Donnisthorpe Street - 61 Hunslet Road - - Airedale Foundry - - Old Railway Foundry, Hunslet Lane. Steam Plough Works, Hunslet Lane. Hunslet Lane Goods Sta- tion. Leeds Iron Works - Potterdale Mills - - Sun Foundry, Dewsbury Road. Dewsbury Road - - - RETURN put in by A. - Flax Iron Ware Glue Name of Occupier. Spinners. Workers. Grinders. Works. Remarks. Joshua Bower, junior - - — – 60 Hill Brothers - - - 37 -- — Refuse on to their own land. | Tannet and Walkers - — 500 - – Privies used by men - empty into beck. w. B. Holdsworth & Co. 700 || – – – Messrs. Bucktrout - - - 27 - T. Jennings - - — | 2 — — | G. E. Donnisthorpe and 400 | – | – | – | Privies into sewer. Co. J. Rhodes and Co. - - 25 - - Robert Wood and Sons — 120 - – Privies into sewer. }. Kitson - — 800 — — 14 closets into beck. J. Routh - - — 129 — — John Fowler and Co. - - 800 - – Midland Railway Com- — 300 – – pany. | Cooper and Co. - - 600 || – — 1 privy into beck. | Elliott 100 privy */1110tt - - - - - - - Carratt, Marshall, and - išo – — Co. J. Buckden and Co. - - 350 - — Waterclosets into main - - drain. 1,100 3,903 27 60 \ J y- - Total number of hands, 5,090. M. FowleR, Esq., C.E., Borough Surveyor (referred to supra, Qu. 6213). LEEDS AND LIVERPOOL CANAL. 205. 206. 207. 208. 209. 210. 211. 212. 213. 214. 215. 216. 217. Name of Works or Street Name of Occupier S. Yºlº Iron Corn !. 1. 21. IN: - WLanu- allul- trir - - p facturers. facturers. Workers. Mills. flººr. Remarks. - | Tower Works, Globe Road - T. R. Harding - - — 130 — - Globe Works ditto - Newton and Company - — — 290 — — Globe Mill - - - Jeremiah Clough - - - — 8 - Monk Bridge Works - Messrs. Kitson - - — 700 || – - North-eastern Railway Com- North-eastern Railway — - 250 - - pany's Engine Works. Company. Castleton Miii, Armley Road | Thomas Luty and Co. - — 1 — I - – 150 Canal Mills - - - James Dixon - - 140 || – – — - Spindle Works, Armley Road Messrs. Hattersley - - – 200 — - Leeds Wheel and Axle Com- || - - " - - - - 80 - - pany, ditto. | Armley Road - - Southwell and Wilcox - || – — 90 — — Albion works, Armley Road Greenwood and Batley || – — 700 — – Castleton Foundry, ditto - Woodhead and Co. - || – — 50 — — Armley Road - - Hinchcliffe Brothers - - 100 — — — 140 100 2,490 8 150 | \– Y — Total number of hands, 2,888. SUMMARY. Hands. River Aire - - - - - - - 14,598 Sheepscar Beck - - - - - - 5,241 Holbeck - - - - - - - 5,508 Benyon Beck- - - - - - - 816 Balm Beck - - - - - - - 1, 193 Dow Beck - - - - - - - 5,090 Leeds and Liverpool Canal - - - - - 2,888 Total - - 35.142 sºrrº- 17159–2, (...) C 202 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, LEEDS. Mr. R. Nickols. 7 Nov. 1866. Mr. Richard Nickols (Leeds) examined. º - 6261. (Chairman.) You are a tanner *-Yes. 6262. Having tanworks in Leeds and in the country? —Yes. 6263. In what part of Leeds are your works situated 2–At the West End, a mile from the Midland Railway Station. 6264. Are they near any river ?–Yes, they are on the banks of the river Aire. 6265. Do you know what area of ground you cover with your works?—Yes; I have 3 acres and 3 roods in all, but that area is not all covered with buildings, although I occupy it all in connexion with my business. 6266. How many tan-pits have you?—About 320. 6267. What is their capacity ?—They each con- tain about 248 cubic feet. There are some larger than that; some contain 384 cubic feet. Those are the largest. 6268. Can you state how many of the larger ones you have —Nearly 100. 6269. What are the dimensions of them. 8 feet long by 4 feet wide —No. The large ones are 8 feet square. 8 by 8 and 6 feet deep. - 6270. What is the size of the smaller ones —They are 5 feet 6 by 7 feet 6, and 6 feet deep. 6271. What number of skins do you pass through those tan-pits in 12 months —Of all kinds about 12,000 a week. Skins of horned cattle, calfskins, horse hides, cowhides, and sheepskins. 6272. About what weight of bark should you use in tanning that quantity —I do not use bark at all in my works there. I use gambier and shumach, and other things. 6273. Are the hides dressed at the same place 2– No. 6274. The raw hides come there, and are limed and cleansed there 2–Yes, and tanned. 6275. What becomes of the refuse hair and the scrapings from the hides before they are put into the pits?—The hair is sold for manufacturing purposes, for the manufacture of carpets, and cheap blankets for workhouses, and the very short hair is sold for nnan ul’e. 6276. What becomes of the fatty material?—That is sold to the glue boilers. 6277. Is any of that refuse passed into the river?— No. 6278. Have you any idea what number of gallons of water you use per week. Do you get that from the corporation, or from local wells?—I get it from a well on my own premises. 6279. Do you take any from the river ? – Only for injection, for the engine, and for condensing purposes. 6280. Have you any idea what volume of water you use per week —About 120,000 gallons. 6281. Does it go into the river ?—Yes, the greatest art. 6282. Do you frequently change the liquid in the tan-pits, or do you ever change it ?—Yes. When the tanning power is thoroughly exhausted the liquid is thrown away. 6283. Does it go into the river ?– Some part of it, not all. 6284. What becomes of the spent solids – They are led away for manure. 6285. They do not go into the river?–No. 6286. You have a large tannery in the country?–. Yes, at Bramley. 6287. Do you know about what height the tanyard is situate above the adjoining stream in the valley — I do not know the number of feet, but it is at a con- siderable elevation from the river. 6288. And there is an area of land intervening between the tanyard and the river ?–Yes. 6289. Do you know how many acres there are of your own land 2–Of my own land below the tanyard about eight. 6290. What number of tam-pits have you in use at that tannery —About 320. 6291. Of what dimensions —The same dimensions as before. 6292. How many of the large ones are there — About 68. 6293. What volume of water do you use there per week 2 – Not nearly so much perhaps about one third. About 40,000 gallons per week. 6294. Where do you obtain it from ?–From water which arises in my own land. 6295. You get it from springs. from pumps?—None from pumps, arising in my own land. 6296. Have you that volume to dispose of every week –Yes. 6297. What number of skins do you deal with there 2 – About 1,000 a week, but that is very different leather from what is produced at the other yard. It is all sole leather. The whole of it is large heavy hides. 6298. Do you use bark in that tanning —Yes. 6299. Entirely 2–Not entirely, but chiefly. 6300. What do you do with the great bulk of the solid refuse P-We burn most of it. 6301. Under your engine —Yes. 6302. What do you do with the fluid refuse –It flows down the field first, and ultimately into the canal. 6303. Have you had any complaints as to fouling the streams with it 2–I had sometime ago a letter from the solicitor to the Leeds and Liverpool Canal Company, stating that they had had a complaint, and that they wished it to be remedied. I replied to it four months ago, and I have heard nothing of it S111Ce. 6304. Have you attempted to utilize the fluid refuse upon your own land in any way ?–Yes. 6305. In what way ?–By turning it on to the grass land. - 6306. With what effect in the first instance did you do that ?—An injurious effect. - 6307. Did it kill the grass?—Yes, I had no crop at all at first ; I applied, I believe, too much, and it des- troyed the roots. 6308. Have you subsequently made any alteration in the mode of application ?—No, I have not tried it since, because I have not had land in a proper state to put it on. 6309. Did you not put some of it in a more diluted form upon the land, and get a better crop of hay?— Yes; in some part, where there has been very little of it, the crop has been very much better, but for the most part it was applied too strongly. 6310. Do you think that it is possible to dilute it or to use it so as to make it beneficial 2–Yes; if there was a large space of land it would be very bene- ficial, but I carry away as much refuse as would manure 40 times as much land as I have. 6311. How many acres have you ?—About eight. 6312. And you think that you cannot utilize the waste refuse of that tannery upon those eight acres?— Certainly not. 6313. Is pure water necessary for tanning pur- poses —Yes. 6314. Then if you were compelled to rely upon river water, could you carry on your process down in the town 2–Not so well. If I was thrown upon that resource I should take the town’s water. 6315. You would have to purchase the town's water 2–Yes. 6316. If you had neither town's water, nor your own water, what would then become of your tannery —The result would be very injurious ; I cannot speak of it from experience because I have not tried it ; I can only form an opinion. I think that in summer time when the river is very foul it would be very in- jurious indeed, there is no doubt about it. 6317. You might in consequence have to remove your works?—Yes. Do you get any It is all water Rivºrs COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 203 6318. And to go where you could get pure water —Just so. - 6319. How many gallons per week have you in the country tannery 2–Åbout 40,000 in a week. 6326. That is a very small quantity for 8 acres of land 2–Perhaps it may be, but there are only about 5 acres out of the 8 on which I could get it on ac- count of the elevation; it is only on one side of the field that it could be got; the other is too high. 6321. Is it too strong for the land 2–There is a very great proportion of salt in it; the hides which I cleanse are mostly salted hides, and the hides have to be cleansed from the salt. It would be impracticable for me to grow root crops, or indeed any other crop than oats, because I want them for my own use for my horses. 6322. Have you tried any mode of abstracting that excess of salt P. Is there any means of precipitating it or letting it settle out 2–I think not, because it is in solution in the water; there is no residue whatever left of the salt; it is all dissolved. - 6323. (Professor Way.) Do you not think that by management you might reduce the quantity of that particular liquid and reduce its strength, and then be able to deal with it 2–I think not. 6324. Not by putting the skins one after another into the same water —That might be done, but it would be at too great an expense. 6325. That is to say, as long as you have not to keep your refuse out of the river ?—Just so. • 6326. (Chairman.) Would you think it a great hardship if some regulation told you that you should not put it into the river ?—If at the same time I was told what I could do with it I should be quite satis- fied; that is to say, without any great excess of cost. 6327. (Professor Way.) Do not the skins lose – They lose considerably in salting ; they will lose about 20 per cent. 6328. Supposing that you have 100 salted hides, and that they weigh so much, how much will they lose in the soaking to remove the salt; in fact, how much salt is there in them 2–I cannot give you any idea because what weight they lose in salt they gain in water in absorption. 6329. (Chairman.) In order to get out the brine the hides are saturated with as much water?—Yes, and with more. 6330. (Professor Way.) If you put 100 hides into a certain bulk of water, and then examine the water, I suppose that you could tell me?—Of course if the salt could be extracted from the water it would show what amount of salt came out of the hides. I am not aware of any other means of doing it. 6331. In one of these pits how much water do you put –They will hold about 1,500 gallons. When the hides are in it, it is about half that quantity. 6332. How many hides 2–100 or 120. 6333. I suppose that if I ascertained how much salt there was in a given quantity of that water, you could state how much salt had come out of the hides 2– Perhaps you could arrive at it in another way. About 4lbs. of salt is required in salting a hide, it becomes wet from the natural moisture of the hide; after the hide has been soaked for a day or two, the salt which was in it is all brine. It does not all come out at once; we give two or three clear waters to get the hides pure of salt. - - 6334. (Chairman.) The water, I suppose, in that state would contain too large a dose of salt for irriga- tion ?–Yes. 6335. (Professor Way.) You have about eight hundredweight of salt to dispose of every week?—Yes, that and considerably more. 6336. And even supposing that you diluted it, it yºu be too much salt to put to eight acres of land * es. yº. The salt becomes the trouble in that case ?— €S. 6338. In the liming process for the removal of the hair, do you allow the lime to subside for any time before the water is run off?—We do not run off any of that water except the waste water which drains from the hides when they are drawn out of it. We add lime to it, and from time to time the pits are emptied of the substance. - 6339. The solid matter is dug out 2–Yes. 6340. Is more lime added to the liquid, or is the liquid run off?—The liquid is not run off at all. 6341. The solid lime is taken away ?—Yes; the farmers around fetch it. 6342. Is that liquid never thrown away at all — No. 6343. Only that portion which the hides bring out in the act of removing them —That is all; the hair is taken off and that brings out a considerable quan- tity of liquor. 6344. How often in a week do you have to fill up with water –Perhaps about twice; it is only a few inches. 6345. In order to make good what has been brought out 2–Yes. 6346. In what way do you use this very large quantity of water, is it the tan-pits which are run out so frequently —It is used in the tanning pits and in the cleaning of the hides from the salt. 6347. You give us 120,000 gallons per week – That is at Joppa. - 6348. That is 20,000 gallons a day ?–Yes. 6349. You say from the tan-pits the water is not thrown away till it is absolutely done with, and that that is not frequently the case ?—Just so. - 6350. What consumes those 120,000 gallons of water per week —The washing of sheepskins. We buy about 4000 to 5000 sheepskins a week, and they consume a great deal of water in washing the wool before it is pulled off the skin. :- 6351. Does any quantity of grease come out of them ; are they washed with soap 2–No, only with Water. 6352. With clean water in fact 2–Yes. 6353. Is the water very foul after they have been washed 2–Yes, it is too dirty to wash any more in. We have water constantly running into the pit, and the men are washing the skins and it runs in clean at one end and runs out dirty at the other. The skins are washed one at a time. 6354. Therefore you use the water in abundance 2 —Yes. 6355. Would it be possible to wash those skins one after the other in the same water, changing the water subsequently —No ; you would deteriorate the value of the wool by that process. 6356. It would not be possible to wash the wool as it is washed when it is off the skin Pi—No. 6357. There is a machine in use for washing wool by which a good deal of wool is washed in the same water 2–Yes. 6358. Does that deteriorate the wool 2–Not at all; but the question is not only as regards the wool, but the skin. During the summer it is very important to get sheepskins into cool water as soon as possible. 6359. To prevent fermentation ?–Yes; if that was not done in a very few hours they would get very hot, and would spoil the wool and the skin. 6360. You think that this large quantity of water for washing sheepskins is a necessity, and cannot be diminished 2–I think so. 6361. Is there anything in that water which is worth preserving, or has any attempt been made to preserve it 2–I think not. 6362. Has it been used at all for agricultural pur- poses?—I think not, because all sheepskins are either washed in the river, or near it; in some rivulet, some running water; that is desirable. 6363. I suppose that there would be nothing in it which would be deleterious 2–Nothing but what comes off the sheepskin. - 6364. Supposing that the sewage of the town were applied to the land, would there be any reason why this water should not be turned into the common sewers, and so kept out of the rivers ?–None what- IEEDS. Mr. R. Nickols. 7 Nov. 1866. C. c 2 204 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, LEEDS. Mr. R. Nickols. 7 Nov. 1866. ever. It would be rather an advantage, because it is so little diluted with anything that it would act as a cleanser of the sewers; it would be almost a stream of pure water. - 6365. With regard to the tan-pits themselves, do you think that that water would be objectionable if it was run into the sewers?—Not at all. 6366. Has it any unpleasant smell when it is fresh, except of course the smell of tanning 2—That is all ; tan liquor is not a disagreeable thing. 6367. (Mr. Harrison.) I believe that there are a great number of hides tanned in Leeds and the neigh- bourhood —Yes, Leeds is now a very large tanning district. 6368. It is the largest tanning district in England P —Yes. 6369. Can you state the number of hides of different kinds which are brought per annum into this neigh- bourhood and tanned 2–Last February I got statistics for the purpose of laying them before our members with reference to the cattle plague, and we then found, at a meeting of all the principal tanners, that 2,750,000 hides and skins were manufactured in Leeds in a year. 6370. Were those Foreign or English skins?—The bulk of them were foreign, East Indian skins from Calcutta and Bombay and other places. 6371. Those would be bullock hides 2–Yes, the hides of the small East Indian cattle. 6372. (Professor Way.) Are not all those hides salted 2–Yes, highly salted ; a good deal of salt is upon them. 6373. (Mr. Harrison.) What proportion of English bullock hides and sheepskins were there 2–I do not now remember that, but I think that I can give it to "Oll. 6374. Where are the bulk of these tanneries situated —There are three very close together; there are two near to mine at Joppa, and there is one at Kirkstall, but Buslingthorpe is the chief place for tanning ; there are three or four large yards there. 6375. When a system of sewerage is carried out for the whole of Leeds the water from those tanneries will be discharged into the sewer 2–Those at Bus- lingthorpe are situated upon the Sheepscar Beck, that is the only outlet for the sewage. 6376. Did you hear the borough surveyor state that he had received instructions from the corporation to make plans for thoroughly sewering the whole of the southern part —I was not in the room when that was stated. 6377. If a system of sewerage was carried out, tan refuse could be carried into the sewers ?—Yes. 6378. Your experience of the application of sewage to land is such that you think that the addition of tan refuse would rather improve than diminish the value of sewage for application to land 2–No doubt, unless it was too much diluted with water, all our re- fuse water contains a large amount of manure; at the same time there is a very large quantity of water with it. 6379. What is the loss upon your hides in weight as you receive them into the tanyard, and as you send them out —It depends upon the state in which they are: dry hides will gain very considerably, weighing heavier as leather than in the raw state. We have a great number of them. On the other hand salted hides will lose from 25 to 40 per cent. 6380. It was mentioned just now by the borough surveyor that the manufacturers who pumped water for various purposes from wells in the town had found the quantity of late years diminish; have you ex- perienced any such thing 2—No. 6381. Is yours a very deep well?—No, the bore is about 36 to 40 yards, and my supply is as good now as it was 30 years ago. 6382. Do you know the village of Bramley adjoin- 1ng where you live 2–Yes. 6383. What is the condition of Bramley as to health?—It is very indifferent, 6384. What does that arise from ?—I think from bad sewerage. 6385. Is it not situated upon the top of the hills — Yes. 6386. Should there be any great difficulty in clear- ing away the sewage from a locality like that ?—None whatever. 6387. At present is there any system of sewerage carried out at Bramley —I think not; if any, it is very little, the drainage is mostly into cess-pits and by top-drains. 6388. Is not the death rate at Bramley very large : —Yes, but it ought to be a very healthy place from its situation and dry soil, it is all on stone. 6389. (Chairman.) Do you know whether the excess of deaths has been from fever ?–Fever and smallpox ; smallpox a few years ago was very bad indeed. 6390. What are the natural facilities which you require for tanning operations —The first thing is a good tanyard, or rather perhaps I should say, first a large capital, and next a good tanyard, and then a good supply of hides and tanning material, and the requisite information for working it. 6391. You could not put tanworks with the same advantage anywhere could you ?—Certainly not. 6392. You must be near to proper means of com- munication ?—Yes. 6393. And you must have water 2–Yes. 6394. Is it an advantage to have the means of pass- ing away without objection your refuse or effete matter?—It is absolutely necessary to have that con- venience, otherwise you would be shut up at once. 6395. As you are aware of the purport of this inquiry, namely, if possible to diminish the pollution of rivers, if restrictions were put upon your carrying on your trade what effect might such restrictions have. If, for instance, you were told that you should under no conditions pollute a stream what should you say to that ?—It would entirely close all the tanyards in this district, they would be useless as tanyards. 6396. Then that being so, any restriction must not take that shape —Certainly not, or otherwise it would ruin the trade at once. 6397. You say that you use a certain volume of water per day ?—Yes. 6398. In using that water you pollute it 2–Yes. 6399. And the polluted water must pass away from you by some means ?—Yes. 6400. You now pass it away, and you choose a site which gives you facilities for passing it away ?— Yes. 6401. Will you admit or not that it is in an objec- tionable state when it is passed away ?—It is objection- able for any other purpose of manufacture, or for domestic use, of course. 6402. Have you in your experience any practicable method of diminishing that objection ?–No, I have not. 6403. And so far as you see at present, you must have the right secured to you which you now enjoy, if you are to carry on your trade —Yes; the right of discharging the refuse either into the river or into the COmmon SeWer. 6404. And if the sewage is to be utilized, it will be an operation upon a grand scale —No doubt. 6405. You say that in your manufacturing processes you would pass nothing into the sewers, so far as you know, which would render that sewage unfit for agricultural purposes?—Certainly. 6406. That is to say if the sewage was fit before ?— If it was fit before, what I should turn in would add to its value, and not injure it at all. 6407. You are now a ratepayer to the borough of Leeds?—I am. 6408. You are under the municipal government of Leeds 2—Yes. 6409. And if it was found necessary to purify this river upon any great scale, then supposing a process was required incurring an extra expenditure on behalf RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 205 of the borough you would be called upon to contribute your fair share according to your rateable value P- Yes. 6410. And if it amounted to some moderate sum it might not drive the trade away ?—Certainly not. 6411. But if you were to be told that you should not turn out any of your refuse water into the rivers or sewers it would destroy both you and all the other tanners in the district 2–Entirely ; it would shut up the entire trade; it would throw I do not know how many, but perhaps 20,000 people, out of bread. 6412. Do you know where you would go to carry on your trade under similar restrictions?—Not in the United Kingdom ; we should have to go on the conti- nent somewhere. 6413. If restrictions were made of that class and character they would annihilate the trade not only in Leeds, but so far as you know in the entire Kingdom? Yes. 6414. Therefore, if there are to be restrictions upon you they must be more reasonable ones —Of course, or else we should be ruined. 6415. (Professor Way.) I think that you say that you have not made any attempt, or seen any attempt made, to cleanse tan liquid before it is thrown into the river ?–No. 6416. Would you be surprised if I told you that for a very moderate cost you could throw down all the matter out of it, and bring pure water from it?—I should not be surprised at the possibility of its being done, but I should be surprised if I could purify the whole of my water product at a small cost. 6417. You think that you could not do it 2–I think not. 6418. Is it not a question of detail?–Yes. That is too scientific a matter for me to give an opinion upon.—Supposing that it could be shown that at a moderate cost you could so treat the matter which you now throw into the river as that a great part of the objectionable character of it would be removed, should you think it a hardship to be called upon to do it?— No, certainly not, if it was at a reasonable cost. 6419. If you could not entirely remove objection- able matter, yet if you could reduce it I suppose it would be an advantage to the river ?—No doubt. 6420. The chairman asked you whether moderately pure water was not a desideratum in your operations. —I think that my answer to that question was that it was necessary to have pure water. 6421–2. Then any measure which was taken by the manufacturers and the townships of the whole district to render the river Aire for instance less impure than it is now might probably enable you to use that water for your purposes —No doubt. - 6423. And in general you would share in the ad- vantages of the district —No doubt. 6424. Therefore, if you had contributed your share of the expense of keeping the river clear you would get it back again –That is true, but in my individual case, as I have said before, I have an ample supply in my own premises apart from the river. 6425. Which you pump —Which I pump. 6426. At some expense I suppose 2–The pumping is a slight expense, it is not a great deal. 6427. (Mr. Harrison.) Is that water much softer than the river water 2–Yes, very much softer. 6428. (Professor Way.) Is there any iron in it 2– I believe not. 6429. Do you find sulphate of iron in it —Yes. 6430. Is that objectionable to you ?—Not at all. 6431. Do you know what quantity of lime you use in a year?—No ; but I can let you have the particulars. 6432. (Chairman.) What number of tanneries are there in Leeds 2—I can give you that. I have the statistics in my office. There are, I should think, 20 or 25, but it is a mere guess, I am not quite sure. 6433. What is the number of pits 2–It is very large ; I could not give you the number of tan-pits because I do not know what other tanneries have. 6434. What do you do with your ashes?—They are led away to make uneven places level. 6435. You do not launch them into the river ?— No, none. 6436. Would the Aire and Calder navigation company prevent you from doing so 2–I do not know ; I have never had occasion to put ashes into the river, 6437. It has never occurred to you that that would be a proper way of getting rid of them 2–Certainly not, and I should never think of it. 6438. Do you know Bradford 2–Yes. 6439. Do you know Huddersfield 2–Yes. 6440. And the manufacturing districts —Yes. 6441. In what state do you consider that the river now are 2–Very bad indeed. - 6442. Do you think that it is an advantage to the trade of the district that the rivers should go on being made worse, or that, if possible, something should be done to prevent their contamination ?—I think that it would be a great improvement if it could be prevented at not too great a cost. 6443. In saying that, you mean practically and in a common sense manner —Yes. 6444. Entailing something to which persons could bear to be subjected 2–Yes, I think that it would be a great advantage. 6445. In your travels through Yorkshire have you ever seen that not only fluids contaminate the rivers, but that solids are thrown in without let or hindrance? —In many places that is so. 6446. Ashes 3–I never knew ashes thrown in. 6447. Would you be surprised if I told you that there are manufactories burning several thousand tons of coal per annum which never cart a spadefull of ashes away, but throw them into the stream —I never heard of it, and could not have believed that it was so. 6448. Is there anything which you would wish to add –I am not aware that there is. I should be very glad to see some steps taken to purify the rivers, which would not interfere with the interests of the trade. 6449. (Professor Way.) You do not think that it would be done voluntarily —I think not. 6450. It is not likely that the people interested in the matter here would combine together without some external pressure ?—I do not think that they would. The witness withdrew. The witness subsequently furnished to the Commissioners particulars of materials, &c. used at his two Tanning Establishments, as subjoined:— BRAMLEY HILL Top YARD. Weight of hides - - - - - per week 25 tons. -> leather - - - - -> 14 , 3- lime - - - - - -> 3 >> -> coals - - - - - >> 16 ,, -> tanning materials, consisting of bark, terra japonica and valonia - -> 20 ,, Volume of water, 40,000 gallons per week. Joppa, Leeds, 7th Nov. 1866. Joppa TAN YARD. Weight of hides in - per week 70 tons. >> leather out - >> 2 xx >> lime used - -> 9% , -> coal used - - 3- 42 , >> tanning material used, con- sisting of terra japonica, valonia, and shumac (no bark used) - - - -> Volume of water used per week, 120,000 gallons. (Signed) 20 ,, Richard Nickols. LEEDS. Mr. R. Nickols. 7 Nov. 1866. C c 3 206 | RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. - Mr. W. Pollard. ' 7 Nov. 1866. . - beneficial, if it does not-come during the time when Mr. WILLIAM Poll ARD (Grange, near Leeds) examined. 6451. (Chairman.) You are Henry Lowther?—Yes. -- - 6452. Where do Sir John's estates lie 2 – At Swillington, six miles from Leeds. They are three or four miles below the outfall of the sewage of Leeds. 6453. Does the river Aire flow through them 2– For nearly three miles. 6454. Are Sir John’s estates on both banks of the river ?–On one side. - - 6455. On which side of the river ?–On the north side. - -- - 6456. How long have you known the river ?–I have been agent for Sir John for about 20 years; I knew the river before, but I have known the river well for that time. 6457. Do you know Thorpe Hall pastures —Yes. 6458. Was the river water at any time used upon Sir John's estate for agricultural purposes, as for watering cattle –The cattle get to the river Aire on the pastures. - 6459. Do they now –In some parts. tº 6460. And do they drink the water now 2–In some parts they do. In some parts they cannot get to it on account of the plantations. 6461. In what state did that river exist when you first knew it 2–When I first knew it it was discoloured a good deal, but there was not any particular smell from it 20 years ago. 6462. In what state is it now *-It is now in a most frightful and wretched state. 6463. Is there any smell from it during summer ? —There is such a smell from it in summer, in dry weather, that in passing over the bridge I have some- times had to put my hand to my mouth and to run to get from it. 6464. Is any portion of the estate building land?– No, none of it has been sold as building land. 6465. Are there any manufactures near there upon the river, or in its vicinity ?—There is a brewery near and there are large collieries. 6466. Where does the refuse water collieries pass —Into the river. 6467. Down the watercourses —Yes, 6468. Are there any fish in the river now 2–1 should think not, I have not seen any lately. 6469. Do you ever remember any fish being there : —Not many; in a fresh there might be a few fish, but there have not been many fish there these 20 years. 6470. Have you heard anyone make complaints of the polluted condition of the river ?—I have heard of many complaints from residents in the neighbourhood, but the land is not thickly populated near the river ; the houses are chiefly at a distance from the river, but those who reside near the river have found great fault. 6471. They consider the state of the river a nuisance? —A great nuisance. 6472. In your opinion has there been any depre- ciation of the value of the estate of Sir John, so far as the river passes along it?—Certainly I think that a pure stream would render the property more valuable. 6473. Are any of the lands liable to be flooded ?– Yes. - -- - 6474. From the water rising over the surface — Yes; Fleet Mill Dam has been raised, and I think that that has made it worse. 6475. After these floodings is the land affected in any way ?—The water stands stagnant, and it injures the grass very much. Some of the land in that district has been worked for coal. In places where the water can get off again I think that flooding is agent to Sir John from the the crops are on. º 6476. Have you had any experience of utilization of sewage 2–Not further than upon my own farm. The drainage of the township where I live is turned on to a grass field. - - 6477. Is it ordinary grass?–Yes, pasture. 6478. What is the area —It is only a small field that it is turned into, about five or six acres. 6479. How long have you put on the sewage 2–It has been on during the time that I have occupied that field, probably 15 years, and it was on before. º 6480. Is it beneficial or otherwise?--I think that i is beneficial, but it is merely the ordinary drainage of the town, there is no manufacture. ºn Io 6481. Do you know the river above your estates? —Yes, coming towards Leeds. ºne sº 6482. In what condition do you find it as it comes towards Leeds —I am agent for the Speaker of the House of Commons; he has a frontage of about a mile to the river higher up, and when we get above the outlet the stench is not so bad as it is below. - yº. is the Speaker's land above the outlet 2– e.S. 6484. Do you think that if the sewage of Leeds were to be utilized, you would have less nuisance down below in Sir John's estate —Of course I do, and I attribute the nuisance in a very great measure to the sewage; and as it is intended very much to add to the drainage district of Leeds, of course the nuisance will very much increase. 6485. You think that if they carry out systematically the whole drainage and sewerage of Leeds, the pollu- tion in the river will be very much larger than it is now —It will become almost insufferable, I do not know how it will be borne. - 6486. (Mr. Harrison.) Supposing that the corpo- ration wished to apply the sewage to land, is there any land in the neighbourhood suitable for its applica- tion, and which could be obtained by the corporation for the purpose –I think that there would be great difficulty in obtaining it, and I may give this as one reason : Mr. Ingram, in whose land the outlet is, had I believe power to take the sewage water, or the corpo- ration were to pay him 300l. a year, and he prefers to take the 300l. a year. 6487. Is there much meadow land adjoining the river belonging to Sir John Lowther to which the sewage could be applied ?–There is a great deal of good feeding land, but the sewage of Leeds is so much diluted, and there is so much chemical matter in it, that I think it might not be beneficial to the grasses, and it might end in destroying them. The sewage of a manufacturing town like Leeds is a very different thing from that of Edinburgh, where you have chiefly nightsoil. 6488. What chemical works are there in Leeds which would throw in objectionable refuse?—There are several chemical works in Leeds. Hirst and Brooke's is one. 6489. What do they manufacture ? — I do not exactly know. There is Armitage's as well. I do not exactly know what they manufacture. I know that they do great injury to the land in the neigh- bourhood, and have destroyed the grass by allowing chemicals to escape. 6490. You mean exhalations into the air 2–Yes. 6491. There have been preventive measures to put a stop to that —There are large chimneys, but still the chemicals fall down. 6492. Supposing that the sewage was good for the land, and that Sir John had land which was suitable for its application, would he offer any objection to grant- ing the land to the corporation ?—I think that he would hesitate about it. - - -- ºn 6493. Why?—He lives in the neighbourhood, and I think that it would be a nuisance. There is always a smell from it when you are irrigating land. I do not think that it would answer. I do not think that it would pay. - - - - 6494. How far are your meadows from Thorpe Hall meadows, where the cattle plague was 2–Pro- bably about two miles. - - 6495. Did the cattle on your meadows go down and drink the water at the same time that those on the Thorpe Hall meadows which had the cattle plague drank it?—There are several streams independent of the river, and the cattle principally drink there. RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 207 There is also a part of the old river which has been cut off and is left in Sir John's property, and they drink there. 6496. Is there any means of watering cattle in the Thorpe Hall meadows?—Yes, there is the water which runs through the Thorpe Hall meadows. 6497. Is that pure water –It is tolerably pure. 6498. Cattle were similarly situated during the cattle plague upon the Thorpe Hall meadows, and upon yours as far as the water went?—I think that they had more access to the polluted river than our cattle had. Not many of our cattle could get to the river. 6499. By whom was the mill dam which you men- tioned just now raised ?–I do not know. 6500. When was it done P-It has been done, I should think, about 20 years. It belongs to the Aire and Calder Company, I think. It is at the Fleet Mills. It causes the land to be flooded. 6501. Have any steps been taken to remedy the mischief?—I am not aware of any. 6502. You have just submitted to the injury — Yes. 6503. Have the Aire and Calder Company power to raise or lower the dam at will —I can scarcely answer that question. I think not. 6504. (Mr. Harrison.) You wish to represent that the nuisance is very great to the property of Sir John Lowther —Yes, below the outlet. 6505. That it is increasingly great, and that if it goes on it will be intolerable 2–Yes, The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM Swale (Leeds) examined. 6506. (Chairman.) You are inspector of nuisances for the borough of Leeds?--I am. 6507. How long have you held that appointment —I was appointed smoke inspector in 1853, and 1 continued in that office until 1857, when I was made superintendent inspector of nuisances. 6508. What staff have you at your disposal 2–At present we have about 20 policemen for that duty exclusively. When I say exclusively, I mean that they are charged with the inspection of nuisances, and the reporting of them. There are also a superin- tendent of the scavengers, of the street sweepers espe- cially, and a meat inspector, and a smoke inspector. 6509. As inspector of nuisances, do you inspect common lodging-houses 2 – No, that is a separate department under the police ; or rather there is an inspector of lodging houses. 6510. Have you charge of the foul middens and ashpits –Yes. 6511. And of pigs or pig styes?—Yes. 6512. Are many pigs kept within the borough – Very many. 6513. Have you frequently to report them as nui- sances?–Yes, they are very often complained of by individual inhabitants, and by myself also. 6514. Have you any idea what number of ashpits and privies there are in the borough —Yes, I have a statement here which I daresay is pretty nearly correct. (See Paper A, printed at the foot of the evidence of the witness.) In the township of Leeds there are 7,112 ashpits, or rather privies. I would not call them ashpits. There are sometimes several privies to a pit. In the borough altogether there are about 12,000. That is entirely exclusive of water- closets. 6515. Do you know how many houses there are in the borough of Leeds 2—I have not exactly the number of houses now. There are about 45,000 houses. I have calculated that there are about three and a half houses to a privy in the township, and in the borough about three and three-quarters. That is exclusive of watercloset accommodation. 6516. How frequently do you find it necessary to empty those places in the year —Of course that varies. It depends a good deal on the size of the pit, and the sort of inhabitants; the sort of property. 6517. Where are they usually situated relative to the houses. Are they behind and crowded in amongst them —They are very close to them ; in many places too close. 6518. Are there in any instances bedrooms placed over these privies —Yes; the figures which the officer of health gave you this morning I have seen myself. There would be nearly 1,000 privies of that sort immediately under dwellings, but there are many more which are close to houses. There is a row of houses, say a dozen, and at the end there are six privies at the gable end of the last cottage. 6519. How long as a rule will the refuse remain in those privies; will it remain six or 12 months –It has frequently done so. 6520. I presume that fermentation is set up long before that time, and that the matter is putrid – Yes. 6521. And giving off noxious gases —Yes. 6522. Do the poor people ever complain to you about the stench –Very often. 6523. Do the parish officers ever complain to you of it —The Corporation have a weekly return of the deaths, and we have branch inspectors of nuisances who report to us as to any special cases of disease. 6524. In your inspections do you ever meet with or know the parish relieving officers ?—I know them well, and often communicate with them. 6525. Do you ever see them giving relief in those places where these nuisances exist?—They do not give it at those places. I frequently see them visiting there, but relief is given at the office. Of course the township of Leeds has its own parish officers, and the respective townships have their own. 6526. Are those ashpits and privies cleansed by your men, or do you call upon the parties themselves to have them cleansed ?–Within the drainage district, which is the most populous port of Leeds, we cleanse the ashpits. 6527. How many do you cleanse per annum on an average —I have not taken an account of the num- ber. Perhaps scores will be cleansed every week, and hundreds will not be cleansed once in six months. 6528. At what hour in the 24 do you cleanse them 2–Mostly from 10 in the night till 7 in the morning. 6529. What is the state of the place at those hours when they are taking this stuff upon the surface –The state of Leeds from 10 at night till about 4 in the morning is something fearful. I speak from personal experience ; the stench is fearful. It is very much better now than it was a few years ago, when I had more especially to deal with it. 6530. Where is that refuse taken when it is carted away –It is sent off from Leeds as well as it can be by either the North-eastern railway, or boats down the river Aire. 6531. Have you a depôt at any point where you cart it to ?–We have not now. 6532. Has any of it at any time passed into any of the streams or becks?—None of the solid matter has been thrown in there by the corporation. 6533. Have you any reason to believe that any other parties pass any of it in, in order to get rid of it —The contents of the privies of manufactories upon the streams and the river drop into the river. 6534. Are there many cases where the solid matter falls down direct into the river ?–Yes. 6535. And floats away ?–Yes; during the past three years the corporation undertook the cleansing of these places within the drainage district, and taking the whole three years there were about 55,000 tons a year removed. 6536. From where 2–From the ashpits of Leeds, Hunslet, and Holbeck. - 6537. At what cost would that be 2–About 2,200l. a year. That is the dead cost, namely, the loss to the corporation. LEEDS. Mr. W. Pollard. 7 Nov. 1866. - Mr. W. Swale. C c 4 208 RIVERS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. Mr. W. Swale. 7 Nov. 1866. 6538. Do you know what the gross cost was 2–I have not the figures by me now, and it would be difficult to get at it, because the corporation upon first under- taking it also undertook the railway or boat carriage of the material, so that the gross amount of money was considerable. The Chairman reminds me that it was from 6,000l. to 7,000l. a year, which left the dead loss 2,200l. But I may state that that was from 1860 to 1863, and that since that time the cost has almost doubled. 6539. Do you ever notice any carcases floating in the becks and mill goits and streams ?—Very often at certain seasons. Of course after a flood like this we shall not have so many. 6540. Have you instructions from the committee to cause those carcases to be taken away and buried ? —We have. 6541. Do you do so?—We have done so. 6542. Is anything of that sort done for the Aire itself —Yes, as well as the becks. In one day the scavenger removed 50 bodies out of the Aire itself, consisting of cats, dogs, and pigs. 6543. Was that the accumulation of a long time — No, it was not the accumulation of many days. 6544. You do not imagine that if the river was properly attended to you would have anything like that proportion to take out —I should think that you might if you set yourself to it take out 50 bodies every day in the year; an enormous number of dead bodies are brought down by the becks, and there are large accumulations at times in the river Aire itself from Leeds Bridge to the Leeds and Liverpool Canal, which is a part which the Aire and Calder Company do not cleanse, nor is it often dredged. - 6545. Do you know about what number of water- closets there are in use in Leeds 2—There are now about 3,500 receiving water from the waterworks, but that does not include a number used at the large firms and mills. 6546. Then perhaps there would be 1,000 more ? —I should think so at least. 6547. That would make about 4,500 as a whole — There would be more than that in the whole. 6548. 5,000 °–Yes. 6549. Are they being added to, to your knowledge? —The watercloset system has now received a con- siderable impetus. Our officer of health thinks them far preferable to privies. 6550. Have you at any time taken up waterclosets and turned them back again into privies —I have seen it done. 6551. For what reason 2–Because of the water- closets being out of order. 6552. And they have been taken away, and privies have been reverted to ?—Yes. 6553. Have you ever to complain of the gasworks; the accumulations of spent lime —Yes. 6554. How many tons do you think are occasionally accumulated in the yards 2—I should think that I have seen 1,000 tons in both the gasworks. 6555. At that time what is the state of atmosphere about those yards —The cottagers around say that it chokes them. 6556. It stifles them 2–Yes. 6557. What becomes of that lime when it is removed —The farmers take it away and mix it with other tillage for land. 6558. At what time of the year will that refuse accumulate most f—It will accumulate most from now until next spring. 6559. When the farmers are busy in their agri- cultural operations they will not take it away ?–No, nor when they have time; they have not much faith in it. - 6560. Have you any authority to compel the gas companies to take it away as it is made, day by day, or week by week –We have generally found them ready to listen to any suggestions. When the com- plaints were loudest the committee took the matter up, and I went and saw them, and a considerable outlay was incurred by the new gas company to make sheds, and to build large air-shafts, 30 yards high, for the purpose of preventing its being such a nuisance to the neighbourhood. 6561. Do you think that there would be any great hardship in compelling them to take away that gas refuse week by week —None at all. 6562. It must ultimately go away ?—Yes, and I think that the same thing should be done by the scavengers; the refuse must be taken away sooner or later, the sooner the better for health. 6563. What sort of health have the men who carry out this scavenging 3–I have been many years amongst them, and considering the nature of their occupation, and the class of men (they are generally dissipated men). I have been struck with their in- variably good health. 6564. They are fond of beer –Yes, they drink a good deal of beer. The greatest evil which I see among the nightmen is that people encourage their drinking by sympathising with them for the sort of job they have to do, and give them drink too often and too much. 6565. What trade and manufactures in Leeds send out most pollution into the streams?—I have taken a list of them. (See Paper B, printed at the foot of the evidence of the witness.) I should think that I know the borough about as well as anyone. I went through the streams and the river, and I have the manufac- tories and works which are immediately on them. There are three brick and tile manufactories. 6566. What do they pollute the streams with ?—I do not think that there is any pollution from them, nor from the bobbin turners, of whom there are two ; nor from the corn grinders, of whom there are 15. There are ten chemical works. 6567. What do the chemical works pass out 2– They pass out very offensive stuff at times; it of course depends upon the nature of the occupation. 6568. Do you know what chemicals are manu- factured?—There are two places, of one of which especially we have great complaints. 6569. Do they make sulphuric acid –Very few on the stream make sulphuric acid; there are some certainly ; but those of whom there are complaints take the spent stuff from gasworks to extract naphtha. 6570. Do they turn anything into the river?—Yes, into the becks and the river. 6571. They turn spent material in 2–Yes. 6572. Will you go on with your list –There are 23 dyers. 6573. The dyers turn in their refuse dye water – Yes; perhaps there are exceptions to that rule. Some of them turn it into the sewer, but even so it eventually goes into the river. Then there are six iron forges. 6574. What refuse comes from them —Nothing objectionable excepting from the privies of the men; in most places the soil drops into the water. For instance, Kitson's is a very considerable place, and they turn all their closets into the beck or sewer. 6575. What else have you in your list?—I have 15 flax mills ; the water is taken out, and after the flax has been boiled up is turned out again into the river; some of it is worse than the rest. 6576. (Mr. Harrison.) Do flax boilers use any acids —Not that I am aware of. 6577. (Chairman.) What is the next item on your list —There is one felt mill. 6578. Is there any refuse either solid or liquid from the felt mill?–Yes, there is a good deal of washing from it; there is only one felt mill on the banks of the Aire. Then there are three grease extractors. The works of the grease extractors are not very extensive, but they send out most offensive stuff, it is at times very sickening, and as the works happen to be placed upon a sort of goit where the bed is for a time exposed, I have had to interfere once or twice. There is one hair washing and mixing place; that is the hair taken from these tanneries, which will sometimes smell. There is one establishment of leather works, and four iron and coal mines; there are many branches of them ; they pump the water, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 209 6579. And the refuse water goes into the stream —Yes. There are 20 machine makers. 6580. Will anything go from the machine makers otherwise than the refuse of the men 2–No. There are three paper mills, and a good deal of refuse goes into the stream from them. There are two oil mills. 6581. What refuse goes from the oil mills?—Very little indeed, nothing offensive; there are 12 tanneries on the streams and the river. 6582. I assume that the spent matter from the tan- neries goes in 2–Yes; in one or two instances, where they use large quantities of human excrement, the neighbourhood has been very offensive. 6583. Do they use it for tanning 2–Yes. 6584. For steeping the skins in 2–I can hardly tell in what manner they use it; I know that they have used large quantities of it. 6585. (Professor PP'ay.) It is not for ordinary lea- ther is it 2–No. 6586. It is Russian leather and those things — Yes; there is one tobacco mill; there are 49 woollen and cloth finishers, but in that number there are some who are also dyers. 6587. (Chairman.) And their wash water and other refuse water goes in 2–Yes; so far as I have been able to judge, the water is very much fouled, and I question whether it is not as much fouled before it gets within the borough, as it is within the borough itself. The becks are very much fouled. There are five or six ware and store grinders, two saw mills, and the railway stations. 6588. At the railway station do the waterclosets and the urinals contaminate the stream 2–Yes, in SOIn le Cases. 6589. Have you any further written information ? —Something was said about the street scrapings, and the way in which the streets are swept. I must say that I think that there is a very great deal of pains taken to prevent all solid matter getting into our sewers within the drainage district, more pains than usual; about 9,000 tons of the street scrapings are annually sold. 6590. For what purpose can you seil them 2–For tillage on grass land, but that is only a very small amount of what is gathered up ; many hundreds of tons are gathered up to be disposed of as rubbish, also many thousand tons are gathered up in a semi-liquid state. 6591. (Mr. Harrison.) How much do you get per ton for the scrapings —From 1s, to 1s. 6d. ; about 1s. 6d. delivered at our depôt. The farmers will give about that for ordinary stuff when it is dry, but as it is gathered up from the streets in wet seasons of course there is a very great quantity; I am now speaking of Leeds, Hunslet, and Holbeck. In Huns- let the streets have recently been swept by the Town Council; the streets of Leeds were never in a much better condition as a whole; many of them have been paved within the last few years, but with very few exceptions the whole of the streets are now well paved and drained. 6592. (Chairman.) Do you really think that that is so 2–Yes; I do not say that there are none unpaved, but there is a very marked difference in the last 20 years. 6593. I suppose that there is a good deal of paving and sewering going on now 2–Yes, and there has been for some six years past. In the ont-townships, such as Wortley and Hunslet, there are a great many unpaved streets, but I am now speaking of the town- ship. 6594. (Professor Way.) What is the nature of the chemical works?—They vary a good deal. 6595. Do you know what are generally the things which they make 2–I cannot speak to that; they make sulphuric acid a good deal. 6596. Do they make aniline dyes 2–Yes. 6597. How many manufactories of aniline dyes are there *—I cannot say how many, but I know that there are several. 6598. Do they use arsenic *—I am not aware, 17 1 59.-2, - - 6599. I suppose that there are naphtha distilleries 2 —Yes. 6600. Do you think that you could add to that part of your list the information giving the chemicals which they make 2–1 could with a little care, but I have wished not to inquire too strictly into them. 6601. Is there much refuse arising out of any of these chemical works?—There is not much solid refuse which goes into the streams. 6602. But is there much liquid refuse 2–A good deal of refuse is left to be disposed of; for instance, where Prussiate acid is made. 6603. You mean Prussian blue I suppose ?—Yes, they call them Prussiate works. 6604. Prussiate potash works?—Yes. 6605. A good deal of Prussiate potash is used by the dyers?—I believe so. 6606. And these works supply the particular manu- facturers who require chemicals —Yes; there are two of those works which seem to be exclusively em- ployed in distilling naphtha and creosote, and I have had most complaints of those as to their injuring the Stream. 6607. Without giving names will you give us infor- mation of what these chemical works are 2–I will do so. (See Paper C, printed at the foot of the evidence of the witness.) 6608. There are 49 woollen and cloth finishers ?– Yes. 6609. Does that occupation cause the throwing of any refuse into the river ?—A good deal of offensive matter is thrown off by some of them. 6610. Is that as it leaves the dyeworks?—Yes, with many of them. 661 1. And they use a large quantity of water?-- Yes. 6612. Do you know what quantity of town water is supplied to them?—No. 6613. From the one establishment for hair washing and mixing, is refuse turned into the beck 2–Yes. 6614. That is lime refuse?—Yes. They use the beck for washing, and also a bye-wash. 6615. Does that refuse make the water very turbid? —Very much so. 6616. What are the processes through which flax goes here, is it boiled in alkali ?–No. Some Chinese grass I think may be. 6617. That you have not mentioned in your list – No. 6618. Is there much refuse from the flax mills 2– No, not much. 6619. The larger portion of the waste matter of the flax is already removed 2–It is. - 6620. Are the paper mills on a large scale –Yes, they are rather large, and at times send out very offensive matter. 6621. Do they use anything but rags –No. 6622. Do they use Spanish straw —No. I have Seen cotton Waste. 6623. Is the refuse from those mills a discoloured liquid –Yes. 6624. Is there much of the fibre itself going down 2 —Not much. 6625. Have any complaints been made to you of those paper mills —I have never heard any complaints of nuisance. 6626. There are no fish to kill?–Not now in many of these streams, though I have seen them in all. 6627. Do you know what the paper makers do with the lime which they use 3–No. 6628. Is it carted away ?—I believe that it is, as rubbish. 6629. It is not thrown into the river ?–It is not thrown into the river. Taking the whole borough of Leeds, there is very little solid matter or rubbish to my knowledge thrown in. I scarcely know of a single Case. 6630. How are these paper mills situated —They are on the banks of the Aire. 6631. What water do they use for washing the pulp ?—They have wells in all cases. D d LEEDS, - Mr. W. Swaſe, 7 Nov. 1866. 210 RIVERS-COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. - Mr. W. Swale. 7 Nov. 1866. 6632. Deep wells 2–Yes. 6633. And then they discharge into the becks and the river ?–Yes. They take water for engine purposes out of the streams as well. 6634. Do you know what quantity of paper a week is made 2–I do not. In all cases I have simply taken those works which are on the streams. I have not taken the whole of any particular business but simply those which are directly using the streams. 6635. The other manufacturers must discharge some- where, I suppose –They discharge into the sewers. 6636. Isuppose that by comparing this list with Mr. Fowler's list we shall see what works are near the river ?—Yes, we shall see what are not on the streams. 6637. (Mr. Harrison.) How long have you known the river ?—I was born very near the edge of the river Aire. 6638. What was the condition of the Aire and the becks leading into it when you were a boy –I went to fish very near Messrs. Tatham's mill, and my com- panion was drowned. I never went afterwards, but I had caught many a basketful of fish up to that time. 6639. What fish were they –They were small fish, 6640. In what year would that be?—In 1826 or 1827. 6641. Do you remember the condition of the river in 1837, when the water company obtained their first Act to get a supply from the Wharfe —Yes. 6642. What was the condition of the river then 2– It was very foul then. 6643. What was its condition when you were a boy –I have seen it clear for two or three feet deep. 6644. As a source of water supply how was it — Until this inquiry was instituted I never thought that in my time there had been much water, if any, for domestic purposes taken from the old waterworks. I have many times seen them at work, but that water was confined to a very small portion of Leeds, and I should very much doubt whether it was even then used for drinking purposes. 6645. The inhabitants obtained their water chiefly from wells 2–Yes, and springs. 6646. You say that the expense of cleaning out the ashpits has increased lately 7–It has. 6647. From what has that arisen 2–Perhaps from a variety of causes. The corporation did it in the cheapest way, and in my opinion the most efficient, when it cost the least. It has been since let by con- The witness Paper A, put in by Mr. Swale (referred to supra, Question 6514). Population of the township of Leeds - - - 126,637 22 borough 92 - - - 228,187 Number of privies, township of Leeds, 7,113 ** 95. borough ,, 12,000 Waterclosets attached to waterworks - - 3,500 25 >> other places, such as factories - - No return, Dead cats, dogs, pigs, &c., 50 a day taken out at times. Paper B, put in by Mr. Swale (referred to supra, Question 6565). The following are the Trades and Manufactories either on the banks of the river Aire or on the tributaries, within the borough of Leeds. Number. Manufactory. 3 Brick and tile manufactories. 2 Bobbin turners. 15 Corn Grinders. *10 Chemical works. 23 Dyers. 6 Iron forges. 15 Flax. I Felt. 3 Grease extractors. I Hair washing and mixing. I Leather. 4 Iron and coal miners. 0 Machine makers. tract, and it is now let at about 3,800l. a year. The corporation pay that amount for the contractors doing. it, and there are other expenses which will make the amount not far short of 4,000l. a year. 6648. The present cost to the corporation is 4,000/. a year instead of 2,200l., which you mentioned as the former expense —Yes. 6649. Do you know any considerable area of Leeds where waterclosets have been introduced 2–There are very few waterclosets on the south side of Leeds; they are principally on the north side and in the better class of houses. There are few, if any, water- closets in working men's houses. I scarcely know any, perhaps not more than 100 altogether, in that description of houses. 6650. Are those scattered about the town 2–Yes, about the borough. 6651. Have you observed whether the people whose ashpits are close to the house, and sometimes under the house, are at the same time recipients of parish relief to any extent 2–They are invariably such recipients, and some are, I had almost said, worse— they are vagrants, they are of the very worst class. I scarcely know an exception. 6652. So that the town is actually paying for the continuance of that system 2–Indirectly, no doubt. 6653. Is there any other point to which you wish- to speak —This is the death rate of Leeds (delivering in the same). 6654. This is for the year ending December 1861? —Yes. 6655. Is a similar return made out annually — No. I took it after the census was taken for 1861, and I got it accurately for each district. 6656. (Professor Way.) Have you ever attempted to ascertain whether the pollution of the river arising by manufactories, or the pollution arising by sewage, caused you the greatest amount of trouble —I would put the ashpits first, the pigs second, and the bad drainage third. 6657. As injuring health in houses 2–Yes. 6658. Have you many complaints of injury from the river itself?—No. - 6659. May we take it that generally the river is so bad that individual cases are not worth considering : —They are not at all. I have found that all I could do was to scavenge and remove obstructions. withdrew. Number. Manufactory. 3 Paper mills. 2 Oil mills. 12 Tanneries. 1 Tobacco mill. 49 Woollen and cloth finishers. 5 Ware and stone grinders. 2 Saw mills. Railway stations. Paper C, put in by Mr. SwalE (referred to supra, Question 6607). The kind of Chemicals manufactured at the 10 different establishments named (*) above. 1. Preparations of indigo, ammonia from sulphate, soap, copperas, and china blue. (Watson’s.) 2. Coal tar distillers, and plaster of paris makers. 3. Cudbear, archil, and liquid ammonia. (Wood and Bedford’s.) 4. Prussiate of potash. (Foster.) 5. Nitric acid, sulphuric acid, nitrate of iron, archil, indigo, &c. (H. Crowther.) - 6. Pharmaceutical preparations, generally archil and indigo. (Hirst.) 7. Refiners of indigo. 8. Prussiate of potash. 9. Vegetable naphtha, pyrolignate of iron, and acetate of lime. - 10. Vegetable naphtha. (Signed) WILLIAM Swale, Inspector of Nuisances in and for Nov., 6th, 1866. the Borough of Leeds, RIVERS COMMISSION :–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 2 : 1 Mr. CHARLEs CHADwick (Leeds) examined. 6660. (Chairman.) You are in the medical profes- sion ?—I am. 6661. How long have you been in practice in Leeds and the neighbourhood?—I may say 30 years, within a year, in the town. - - 666.2. Then you have known the river Aire during that time 2—Yes. 6663. And the tributaries of the Aire –Yes, generally. I do not wish to speak very particularly about the tributaries above the town. 6664. In what condition is the Aire now as com- pared with what it was when you first knew it *-It is very different. I knew it 45 years ago, and then it was very respectable. 6665. You would say that it is now a very foul river ?–Yes, it is the foulest which I know. I do not know any river like it. 6666. Have you paid attention to the public health in Leeds and its neighbourhood 2–Yes. 6667. Have you studied the mortality returns — Yes, I am generally acquainted with the result, that we stand badly. 6668. Has it occurred to you to inquire as to the probable causes of the relatively high rate of mortality? —Yes, I have long drawn my conclusions. 6669. What are those conclusions?—That we mainly owe our bad state of health to deficient sanitary ar- rangements; somewhat perhaps to our trades, but not very materially. I also am inclined to think, although I would not venture to pronounce ea cathedrā upon that, that our mortality, if our birth rate be considered, is not so high as it seems to be. I am told that our officers who return these figures state that our birth rate is very large as compared with other towns, and seeing that the mortality is very large among young children, it must have its influence in giving us a worse character than we deserve. 6670. In your professional capacity have you made yourself acquainted with the districts of Leeds where the poor reside –Yes, I know them generally as bearing upon the supply to the institutions, particu- larly to the Fever Hospital, of which I have been medical officer for nearly 30 years. 6671. Did you hear the inspector of nuisances say that you have something like 1,000 bedrooms situated over privies and ashpits 2–1 know that it is so to a great extent, but I had no conception that it was to that extent, at the same time I have no doubt that he is right. 6672. What are the worst types of disease with which you have to deal in your general hospitals?— Fevers are the worst. 6673. Typhus and typhoid?—Yes. 6674. And smallpox?—We have not much small- pox here, we have had the epidemic which has been over the country, but ordinarily we have not much smallpox here, vaccination is now well looked after. 6675. Does typhus prevail more now than it did 20 years ago?—Are you now speaking of the disease generally, or of typhus as distinguished from typhoid? 6676. I have heard Dr. Lankester say that he does not believe in the distinction, that he thinks that typhus and typhoid may be the types of the same disease ?—That they belong to the same class I am thoroughly satisfied; there is no doubt a difference, but I have seen the two diseases originate from the same cause, and run their course distinctly. I have seen the rash of typhoid upon one side of the body and typhus upon the other. I have seen death result through typhus taken from a typhoid patient and vice versá. These are facts which I cannot get over. 6677. I have heard it stated that typhus fever is is almost unknown in France, is that so 2–Yes to a great extent, that remark is generally true. - 6678. That they have typhoid, but not what you term typhus?—They have not true typhus, and for a long time we had not it; all our diseases of that kind were called typhus, but I think that it was perhaps from people not being quite awake to the distinction. Typhus gradually appeared and now we are having more typhus. I now meet with practitioners, young men of 10 or 12 years standing in their profession, who say, “I never saw a case of typhus till now since I was in Glasgow,” or in some school, particularly the Scotch schools. 6679. Do you know whether fever has been more prevalent in the country generally within the last six years, than previously —I have not traced so far as six years, latterly ft has been more prevalent than it was. 6680. It is more intensified and more prevalent than it was 20 years ago?—No. In 20 years we have had two or three epidemics; in that time we had the Irish fever, which was in 1846–47 and in 1848–49. In that Irish fever we had both typhus and typhoid. In the last epidemic we mainly had typhoid, till just at the finish typhus cropped up again, that is very singular. 6681. Do you think from your experience that pu- trid refuse of cesspools and cesspits has anything to do with intensifying the disease ?—Yes, in the general results. If you have an over-crowded dwelling, and it happens to be over one of these privies or ashpits, and there is some cause operating upon that particular ashpit to make it worse, the chances are worse against the inhabitants of that dwelling, both as regards the taking of the disease and the bearing of it. 6682. If you remove the poor creatures soon enough from that influence, and put them into a better atmos- phere, they have a chance of recovering 2–Yes. I was called in to attend a case of diarrhoea which had been going on for six weeks. I saw the patient for only a week, and a very benevolent lady who was looking after the district in which this patient was, and who knew something about him, asked me as a favour to take him into the infirmary. I said “I do “ not know whether we shall do much good for him.” She said, “He will be better than where he is.” I said, “I agree with you.” We took him in, and with very little means we made a recovery, but if he had remained where he was, he would unquestionably have died; he is now materially better, that is to say, this week. 6683. Are there any places in Leeds where the poor use waterclosets —I do not think that there are, 6684. Have you seen any town where the poor generally use waterclosets —I cannot say that I have. - 6685. Have you seen the new earth closet which is so much talked about 2—I have not seen it in use, I have heard of it. 6686. What accommodation have you at your hospitals?—At the hospitals we have waterclosets. 6687. And close stools P-Yes. 6688. Do you use disinfectants for the close stools 2 —Yes, I believe that proper disinfectants are used, both in the fever hospital and in the general hospital. 6689. Would it be a convenience to you in the hospitals if you could have an apparatus which could be used without creating any nuisance 2–Yes. 6690. Then I should recommend you to give the earth closet a trial?—I will certainly mention the subject to our board. 6691. The mortality in Leeds this year I think has been upwards of 30 in the thousand 2–I am afraid that it has. 6692. Do you know what it has been in the metro- polis -–Not intimately, so as to answer any question upon that point. 6693. You have not inspected what may be termed the “slums” of London 2–Not to speak authorita- tively regarding them. 6694. You know that the metropolis is very much larger than Leeds 2—Certainly. 6695. Do you believe that there is as bad a popula- tion in London as in any place which you could name in any part of the world?—Yes. 6696. As degraded?—I should think so. 6697. As drunken 2–Yes. LEEDS. Mr. C. Chadwick. 7 Nov. 1866. --- ID d 2 212 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, LEEDS. Mr. C. Chadwick. -- 7 Nov. 1866. 6698. As crowded ?–I should think so. 6699. Do you know the mortality in the city of London 2–It is low in the city, it is lower than in Leeds. > 6700. Do you occasionally see Dr. Letheby's quarterly reports —Yes. - 6701. The city of London is perhaps as crowded with population as any given area which yºu can find? —Do you think that those persons really live in it 6703. They do not perhaps live in it —Do you include St. Giles's in the city P - 6703. Take Whitechapel with all its slaughter- houses; then take Lambeth with all its potteries, and then take the south side of London generally. The great distinguishing difference between London and all other towns in Great Britain is this, the cesspit and the cesspool for the most part have been abolished in London, and there are waterclosets by.tens of thou- sands; those waterclosets pass their contents into the sewers and drains and into the Thames. You know that the Thames is very much larger than your river Aire, and it is said to have been polluted until the Houses of Parliament could only sit with closed windows?—Yes. 6704. Are you aware that during that worst year, namely, 1859, the mortality was very low —Yes. 6705. Throughout all the year?—Yes. 6706. Low relatively?—Yes. 6707. Low even for London —Yes. 6708. Therefore, showing that a contaminated river is less injurious as regards health than cesspools and cesspits crowded in among houses —I have not a doubt about it, but then the stream of the Thames is very different from the stream of this river. 6709. There is no doubt of that. You are also aware that Parliament has compelled the purification of the Thames by an enormous expenditure of money and intercepting sewers ?—Yes. 6710. And that the sewage is to be applied to agriculture ?—Yes. 6711. And that there are from 200,000,000 to 300,000,000 gallons in the 24 hours which will have so to be disposed of 2–Yes. 6712. You are also aware that the refuse water of Leeds is now about 8,000,000 gallons?—Yes. 6713. Have you noticed the condition of the several becks flowing into and through Leeds during the last year or two —Yes. 6714. In what state have they been 2–Very bad. 6715. Would you say that they at all influenced the general health of Leeds 2—I think that the beck run- ning through the low part of the town and falling into the river at Crown Point has some influence on the town, but I am not one of those who look at single causes for these things. 6716. I suppose that before deciding you would require to know not only the external conditions but the internal conditions —Yes, the cubic space in which the people live, and the care which they exercise, and the food upon which they live. 6717. Have you seen a report upon Leeds which was made by a Dr. Hunter some years ago?—Yes. 6718. Do you agree with it 2–Yes, in the main. 6719. Are you acquainted with the river Aire at the point where the outfall is –Yes, I happen to know it well; there is fortunately a very small popu- lation at that point, but the stench is something fearful. 6720. In hot weather?—Yes, and even when the fullest stream of water is coming down. Mr. Swale was talking about the bodies of cats, and dogs, and pigs, and all manner of things which are sometimes floating about; it is something astounding. I have been particularly directed to that matter from the existence of a neighbouring farmhouse where I have had professional experience,and where for several years all the ailments of the inmates have been more or less influenced by the presence of that debouchment. 6721. There has been there a low state of health engendered by the foul atmosphere?—Yes, and the ailments have put on a particular type from the depressing result of that state of atmosphere. 6722. Then I suppose you consider that if you had the residences there multiplied by thousands, you might have a very frightful mortality ?—I am quite satisfied of it. - 6723. (Mr. Harrison.) How close to the outfall is that farmhouse 2–I should think about 200 yards. 6724. (Chairman.) On which side is it, on the north, east, west, or south 2–It is on the same side as the mouth of the sewer ; I think that it is north of the river. 6725. Then a south or south or a south-west wind would cross the river and blow upon the house?— Yes. 6726. So that it would come to them when the atmosphere was the fullest of vapour –Yes. 6727. (Mr. Harrison.) Is the house situated below the outfall P-Yes. 6728. Have you observed that below the outfall there is a considerable deposit in the bed of the river ? —Yes. - - 6729. Have you observed gases rising occasionally * —Not occasionally, but always. 6730. And bringing to the surface solid foeces and black stuff?—I never saw that. 6731. (Professor Way.) Can you trace that state of the river to any distance below the outfall ?—You see it very markedly at Swillington ; the sewage operates upon the whole river; the river is not broad there, the sewage flows in with a little force, and there is a weir just above the outfall, and the sewage oftens spreads over the whole of the river; one side is not worse than the other that I am aware of. 6732. Have you seen the use of sewage for agri- culture ?—No. 6733. As a medical man have you formed any opinion whether irrigation by sewage can be carried out without injury to public health —Seeing that it is generally used in sparsely populated districts I see no reason why it should not be employed; I should not be afraid of its creating any mischief. You would spread it, and not put it on in any intensity. 6734. You are probably aware that medical evidence was given at Worthing, and at Croydon, to the effect that the application of sewage to land was not injurious to health —Yes, I saw that. 6735. Is that what you would suppose ?–Yes, I should say so. 6736. If some scheme was proposed by which the Leeds sewage could be laid upon land should you say that it would be a desirable thing to do 2–I should say that it would be. At Thorpe Arch School I was called in to visit several patients whose disorder was attributed to the spreading of some guano in a field in the neighbourhood; but I would not endorse that statement, but it was very generally believed, and at all events there was a smell. - 6737. You can smell a guano ship eight or 10 miles off upon the sea —Yes. The disorder certainly followed in a very extraordinary apparent sequence upon the application of the guano. 6738. The case is hardly appropriate to that of sewage is it?—No, it is not. 6739. Because in the case of sewage the materials are carried into the soil at once —Exactly. 6740. You as a medical man here would not object to the application of sewage to land 2–I should not be afraid of it, it is the way in which I have looked for the disposal of the sewage. 6741. (Mr. Harrison.) A previous witness men- tioned that there had been a great influx of Irish within a few years?—We always have a large portion of Irish. 6742. Do you find ill health among them to any greater extent than among the rest of your popu- lation ?—They supply us with a great number of fever patients at our Fever Hospital. 6743. At Wakefield the witnesses stated that a con- RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 213 siderable increase in the death rate which they had there was chiefly attributable to Irish immigration ; they said that within a few years a great number of Irish had come in 2–I dare not make such a state- ment. I have certainly found diseases of the febrile class very prevalent among them, and they crowd together much more than the English do. Our authorities are very careful in attending to that matter, and 1 believe that they are doing everything they can to prevent it, and I look to that quite as much as even to the sewerage. Epidemic prevalence of diseases ought always to be taken into account in these inquiries. Although the conditions may be manifestly the same, nevertheless we have five or ten times as much fever at one period as at another. Not long after the Irish fever we got our sewerage into something like ope- ration, and fortunately for Leeds there was then a long period of comparative immunity after that severe epi- demic, although we are never without fever. We found. people then who were ready to jump at conclusions, and who congratulated themselves and said, “What a remedy this sewerage has been,” But my reply always was “Wait ; and although the cycle of the return of the epidemic was a little longer coming round yet it did come, and when it came it appeared that the sewerage had not done much for us. 6744. (Chairman.) The question of sewerage and the question of fever are connected, at least in English towns; sewerage and drainage would seriously affect, or might materially improve, the condition of the dwellings?—Yes. 6745. I suppose that you know Edinburgh and Glasgow —I do. 6746. Where do the poor reside there; do not they generally reside in the upper part of the house?— Yes. 6747. Any amount of sewering and draining could not alter that state of things –It could not, and I suppose that the walls are impregnated from top to bottom with refuse. 6748. Therefore, if you are to have any improve- ment in such places you must do something besides making proper sewers and drains?—No doubt. 6749. Sewers and drains are one means to an end, and only one means?–Yes; the fault which they remedy is but one of the things which occasion these diseases. 6750. After houses have been drained in the higher parts of the town have you ever had complaints in the better class of houses in the upper parts of the town —Yes. 6751. Have you ever had fever in those houses?— Yes. 6752. Has it ever occurred to you that sewering a town or draining a house, unless proper precautions are taken to prevent gaseous emanations, may be a very great evil?—Of course it might. 6753. The first requisite for sewering and draining is effectual ventilation?—Yes, if possible. 6754. It is perfectly possible, and absolutely neces- sary 3–Just so. 6755. What can be so simple as to do what is done in London, namely, to make a rude opening at the surface of the street from the sewer, out of which the gas will easily find its way –It can be done certainly. 6756. The power of mischief in gas will be from its intensity ?—Yes. 6757. When gas is oxidized to a certain extent or is exposed to the open air it apparently loses its power of mischief?—Yes. 6758. And it has apparently its greatest power of mischief when it is placed in a stagnant condition and becomes quiescent —Yes. - 6759. If you are sewering and draining your first principle should be abundant ventilation ?–Yes. 6760. And that ventilation should be as unceasing as time 2—Yes. 6761. Gases have the same facility for running up hill as for running down hill?–Just so. 6762. And it is quite possible to sewer a town and to drain a town situated upon high levels (where people think it so exceedingly easy), so to poison the people by foul gases?—I have no doubt that there is a great deal in that. 6763. By making sewers and drains with no ex- ternal means for ventilation?—Yes. 6764. (Mr. Harrison.) Have the privies of Leeds in the lower parts of the town been removed and the sewers been made use of thoroughly 2–I should think not. 6765. Until you have done that what good are your sewers doing?—That is what I have always said. 6766. You cannot call it a system of sewerage if you just put some great sewers down the streets and only connect the best houses with them —Just so. 6767. You get illness from fever in the low parts? —Just so. I suppose that you have heard in other places that that is so. 6768. (Chairman.) I will give you a list of the towns where waterclosets are general : Alnwick in Northumberland, Morpeth, Lancaster, Worthing, Croy- don, West Ham, Rugby, Carlisle, and many other places. Take Croydon, with its population of 30,000, the death rate has been down as low as 17 in the 1,000, it rises up occasionally to 22. There may be reasons why you should not anticipate in a place like Leeds, with your great manufacturing population, a mortality comparable with that, but I do think that it ought not to be much worse than London, which has a mortality of 22} or 23 in the thousand –There is no question that we ought to be better than we are, but I doubt about our being as well as London; our soil is different, which I think has something to do with it. 6769. I am not a medical man, but I have seen disease upon a great scale in many parts of the world, and I have been compelled to come to this conclusion, after all my reading and all my inspections, that it is neither climate, nor soil, nor atmosphere externally, but that it is something within the four walls of the dwelling which creates excessive disease ?—Yes, I believe so. 6770. I know that climate lowers the constitution. Take India. I am at this moment a member of the Barrack and Hospital Commission for the British Army, and we have returns from all parts of India, from China, and from other parts of the world where British troops are stationed. You are aware that there have been excessive mortalities. On the West Indian stations regiments have over and over again suffered a mortality of 50 per cent. What is the reason of it It has always been said to be owing to the climate. When those barracks were originally established they were contracted for, and the indi- vidual contracted to find the site and build barracks, and they were put into a swamp where no negro would live, and no native would go ; and when our poor fellows have been ordered there the officers have made their wills before starting, and the men have given up in despair. But that is not owing to the climate. Shift those barracks on to an elevation of 50 or 60 feet above that swamp, and give troops proper accommodation, and you can secure to the troops a state of health very little worse than that which they would have at home 2—Just so. 6771. The mortality in the British Army in India has been as high as 60 or 70 per 1,000, but we now firmly expect to bring it down to below 20 in the 1,000; and we have between 70,000 and 80,000 British troops in India 2–Yes. 6772. The mortality of civilians in India, who have the privilege of taking care of themselves, has not been very much greater than the mortality at home?— Just so. 6773. You know, I suppose, by repute what the mortality was in the British Army in the Crimea in the first winter. cent, in three months. I had the honour of being sent out by Her Majesty's Government in the spring following. I landed at the hospitals, and they were burying 70 or 80 men per day. Simply by ventilating the sewers, and flushing and cleansing them, and ven- tilating the hospitals, and cleansing, and limewashing In the first winter we lost 70 per LEEDS. Mr. C. Chadwick. 7 Nov. 1866. I) d 3 2I4 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS, Mr. C. Chadwick. 7 Nov. 1866. Mr. T. W. George. in three months' time the mortality was reduced to four or five per week. Regiments 1,000 strong in the previous winter had lost 700 men, and it was only a question of a few months as to when the last man would have gone off. At the end of that summer the mortality in the entire British army in the Crimea was lower than it had ever been in the barracks at home, and it continued so down to the end of that year —That is so. 6774. The French did not follow our example, and whereas we had no case of hospital fever in the last three months they lost 15,000 men by hospital fever alone. They lost 5,000 a month. The mortality in the British army upon the average before the Crimean war had been 174 per 1,000. Since 1858 the mortality in the British army has from similar causes been - reduced to 8% or 9 per 1,000 °–May I ask whether in your idea a greater birth-rate has an effect upon the death-rate. - 6475. No doubt the great mortality is below five years of age, and if any set of conditions bring you a heavier birth rate, you may infer that you will have a heavier death rate, but how Leeds would stand in that respect as contrasted with Liverpool, or Glasgow, or Edinburgh, I do not know —Just so. 6776. (Professsor Way.) You speak of illegitimate births, I suppose 2–Yes, ill cared for children, as is the case with a great majority of the working classes where the mothers go out to work. I find that our birth rate is much higher than at Riverpool. In Birmingham the birth rate is low, and also in Dublin, and there the death rate is comparatively low. The witness withdrew. Mr. THOMAS W. GEORGE (Leeds) examined. 6777. (Chairman.) You are an alderman of the borough of Leeds 2—I am. 6778. How long have you resided in Leeds 2— I have resided here the whole of my life, and I am now over 60 years of age. 6779. What business do you carry on ?—I am a stuff dyer. 6780. In what part of Leeds is your establishment situated 2–0n the Kirkstall Road, close to the river Aire. 6781. What number of hands do you employ 2– About 160 when we are busy, 6782. What volume of water do you use per day ? —About 270,000 gallons. 6783. Where do you obtain it?—We obtain 150,000 gallons from the river, and about 120,000 gallons from a well of our own from a bore-hole. 6784. For what do you use the river water —For dyeing and washing. - 6785. You, I suppose, use it for dyeing and washing dark colours?—We use it for dyeing either dark oy light colours. It is very easy to purify water in a dyeing vessel. The character of the water is not very material if it is of moderate purity. 6786. By what process do you purify it?—A little acid, a little alum, or anything of that kind, brings the earthy matter to the surface when the water is heated, and then we skim it off. 6787. Does it at all affect the water for dyeing 2– No, this is done in the dyeing vessels. 6788. What are the wares which you use in dyeing 2 —We use logwood, peachwood, fustic, and other colouring matters for dyeing wool, with the addition of tanning matters for cotton warps. 6789. About what quantity do you use in your establishment —About 180 tons in the year. 6790. What do you do with the solid refuse 2–It all passes into the river. 6791. The solids as well as the fluids 2–Yes. 6792. Have you any steam engine upon the pro- mises?—Yes, of about 60-horse power. 6793. Has it never occurred to you to use the spent woods for the furnace –That is impossible. The wood which can be used in that way is generally chipped wood. We use rasped wood, and it passes away from the vessels, and we could not recover it except at great expense, and then it would not burn. 6794. What number of dye-vats have you upon your premises —About 30 altogether. 6795. Of what sizes are they?—They vary from about 60 gallons to, I think, nearly 2,000 gallons. 6796. The volume of water which you have stated comes in daily, also, I suppose, goes out daily —Yes. 6797. Does it go into the river ?–Nearly the whole of it. Some of it goes into the sewer. 6798. What weight of coal do you use in the year 2 —We use about 20 tons a day upon the average. 6799. What becomes of your ashes 2–We cart them away to the neighbourhood. 6800. Is the carting of them away a costly pro- cess —Rather costly. 6801. What does it cost you a load?—We have had it done for 6d. a ton when we have paid for it, but we generally do it for ourselves. 6802. What is done with those ashes –They are used for forming streets, and the railway people use them for ballast. 6803. You do not send any of them into the river ? No. 6804. Would you be prevented from doing so?— Yes. The millowners using water power would pre- Vent us. - 6805. The whole of your refuse fluid and solid in the shape in which it comes out from the vats passes directly into the river ?–Not directly. We have a large wooden trough which takes the refuse from a number of other dyers; but it ultimately goes into the I’lver. 6806. If there was an intercepting sewer brought up to you, of course it would be just as easy to pass it away into a sewer —Just so. Out of the 270,000 gallons of water which we use, we scarcely use more than 20,000 in dyeing. The other portion is used in washing the wares and acids from the pieces. 6807. Then the thoroughly contaminated and foul water would be about 20,000 gallons?–Yes. 6808. If it was thought necessary to remove it that would be about the daily volume which you ought to get rid of?—Yes, it would be very difficult to remove the dye water from the other water. It would require a separate system of sewerage. The other water is very much discoloured. 6809. Could not you easily arrange to pass the contents of the vats when you empty them into some conduit *—It would cost us a large sum in sewers. 6810. Is dye water in your opinion more injurious than the other water –No, except when we use prussiate potash or bichromate of potash, which might be injurious. 6811. Injurious for drinking 2–Yes. 6812. But not liable to fill up the bed of the river ?—No. 6813. It is simply discoloured?—Yes. 6814. Have you thought over this question of river pollution as to what effect might be produced upon your business if restrictive measures were put upon you ?–Do you mean as to cost 6815. Supposing that this view should be taken, that these discoloured and filthy waters should not be passed into the river, have you thought what you could do with them —I know of no profitable way of disposing of the water which we use. - 6816. You have not attempted, or heard of any attempt being made to clarify the waters by discharg- ing the colouring matter and depositing the solids?— I have not. 6817. What number of dye houses are there in Leeds 2—I scarcely know that. I think that there are only seven stuff dyers in Leeds. 6818. Is the water better or worse for your trade now than when you first knew the river ?—There is no doubt that it is worse. When we first went to our RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIEENCE. 215 present premises, I think we were at the top of the stream. Since that time one or two dyers have been established above us, and several mills. 6819. Instead of two or three if you had had two or three dozen, they might very materially foul the water for you ?—There is no question of it, if you multiplied the mills to a great number. I think that the tanneries are the greatest nuisance to us. We have two or three tanneries above us. We have three now, I think. Messrs. Nickols turn their water into the wooden trough, which we also use. 6820. Do you think that it is at all advisable for trade purposes that measures should be taken to attempt to purify the rivers, or that for trade purposes, you should let them go on as they are?—I think that it is a matter of relative cost. - 6821. And that the balance must be between what the trade can bear, and what shall be practicable —I think so. 6822. Supposing that all the dyers in England were put under the same conditions, would not you then get an increased price for your goods, supposing that the cost was increased ?–We should have foreign dyers to compete with if the cost were greatly enhanced to the English dyers. I do not think that as dyers they would come into serious competition with us, because the carriage is so much in our favour, but if we seriously enhanced the price of our goods it would be an evil. 6823. It must be remembered that there is a foreign rivalry as well as a home rivalry —Certainly ; a great part of our stuff trade is foreign trade. 6824. And any restrictions should not be of such a character as materially to affect your market abroad P —Certainly not. 6825. (Professor Way.) You say that it is a ques- tion of cost, could you give us any notion what, in a a large house like yours for instance, employing 160 hands, would really make a serious difference in the cost of your production ; would 50l. or 100l. a year be a sum which you would find really to affect the value of your goods 2–No, I think not. 6826. Therefore, when you say that the trade could not bear any large cost, I suppose that you are speak- ing of some considerable sum of money –Yes, but I have no notion that 100l. a year would suffice to clarify the water which we use. - 6827. When you speak of anything which would interfere with trade, you are speaking not of a few pounds or of a few tens of pounds, but of a large sum of money 2–No doubt. 6828. If in a large manufactory like yours any moderate sum of money, say 100l. a year, would clarify the liquid before you threw it into the stream, would that seriously interfere with your trade – Certainly not. 6829. Mr. Rawlinson asked you whether there was anything injurious to the river in the liquid discharged from the dyeworks, otherwise than as preventing the river being used for domestic supply 2–I think not in a sanitary view. 6830. Is there anything in dye waste which would be likely to destroy the value of sewage for agricul- tural purposes —I do not think that it would im- prove it. 6831. Do you use a good deal of iron?—We use some iron. 6832. Do you think that it is so great a quantity as to injure grass if the liquid was poured on with sewage 2–I cannot exactly state, but I should think not, the volume of water being so great. 6833. You said that you actually took the colour out of the water before you began 2–Yes; we take the impurities out of the water; we use alum as a rule. - 6834. And lime, I suppose 2–No; alum will do it, not interfering with the dyeing process. 6835. Does that equally apply to the water used in washing?—No. 6836. You do not like the river water for washing? —We use a great deal of it for washing; the well water is too salt, and it neutralizes the acid and alters the colour in all vegetable colours. 6837. Therefore, it would be an advantage to you if the river was in a purer state for washing purposes 2 —No doubt; the river Aire is very good indeed for that purpose. 6838. Supposing that the water of the river Aire was restored to any moderate degree of purity, might the sum of 100l. a year, for instance, which you say would not be a serious matter to you, be probably repaid by the better water 2–Yes; we would give 100ſ, a year for pure water. 6839. If every person living on the river did what he could to purify the water, he would get the advan- tage of it?—The dyers would. 6840. So that it would not be a loss to you ?—Not if done for 100l. a year. 6841. You spoke of rasped wood, might not that be kept out by a system of filtration under pressure ?— The quantity is so small in comparison with the water with which it is mixed, that I can hardly think so. 6842. Did you ever hear of a press called Need- ham’s Press 2–No. 6843. Do you imagine that if any press could be found, in the nature of a small machine which was moderately cheap and of ready use, you would have a difficulty in introducing it for such a purpose ?—A great part of the rasped wood adheres to the pieces when brought out of the vessel, and that is afterwards washed off, and it would be almost impossible to prevent it. 6844. (Chairman.) Paper makers use far more water than you do in dyeing —They do. 6845. You do not use 1,000 lbs. weight of water for every pound of cloth which you prepare 2–No. 6846. (Mr. Harrison.) What weight of wool do you dye 2–We dye Bradford stuff goods. 6847. What weight of goods a week do you dye – I can scarcely speak with any degree of accuracy : somewhere between 20,000 lbs. and 30,000 lbs., I should think, per week. 6848. (Professor Way.) Is the 20,000 gallons of water which you actually use in the dye vats in a day discharged at tolerably regular intervals through the day 2–Yes, 6849. If anything could be done with it, it would be discharged pretty regularly 2–Yes. 6850. What will a vat hold?—They vary very much ; our smallest dyeing vessels hold, perhaps, 80 or 100 gallons, and some, perhaps, hold 1,500 to 2,000 gallons. 6851. So that if anything could be done with that dye water it would be possible to do it in a small space? —I am not acquainted with any mode of doing it, and therefore I can scarcely answer that question. 6852. 20,000 gallons is not a very large quantity ? —It is not. 6853. (Mr. Harrison.) Are the remaining 250,000 gallons used simply in washing 2–Yes. 6854. The water is passed through the goods?— Yes, machines called dollies are used generally for washing. 6855. Do you use any cleansing material besides 2 —We sometimes use fuller's earth and ammonia and Soap. 6856. And all that refuse goes away, there is nothing worth reclaiming 2—No, I think not. 6857. You say that you clarify the water for dye- ing ; would the same process of clarification clear the dye water itself after you have done with it?—I dare say that it would to a considerable extent, but the mode in which we clarify the water is by adding alum when the water is being heated; in the act of boiling the scum is brought to the surface. 6858. You say that tanneries are a nuisance to you as polluting the water for your dyeing purposes; how is that –They use a great deal of tanning matter which is thrown into the river; sometimes hairs from the hides are mixed with the tanning matter, and that is injurious to us." - - - LEEDS. Mr. T. W. George. 7 Nov. 1866. D d 4 216 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. Mr. T. W. George. 7 Nov. 1866. --- Mr. R. Tennant. 8 Nov. 1866. 6859. Do you get a better effect from the dyewood when rasped than when in chips ?—Yes, it is scarcely useable for the goods we dye when chipped. Chipped woods are used principally in the dyeing of cloths, but not in worsted goods to any extent ; rasped woods give out their colouring matter more easily. 6860. It is not for the purpose of getting a larger quautity of dye from it?—We do get a larger quantity of dye from it, but it is much more convenient for use. 6861. What is the condition of the river Aire now as compared with what you remember it to have been 60 years ago?—This year it has been very good ; we have had a great deal of water in the river, and I have seen fish caught in the river opposite our place. 6862. (Chairman.) They have come from the upper stream downwards following the fresh water 2 —Yes. There are fish now in the river. I have seen seen them caught recently. 6863. (Professor Way.) I suppose that the fish which you speak of are not a delicate kind of fish 2– Certainly not ; they are not a trout or char. No doubt the river is worse than it used to be, there cannot be a question about that. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 10 o'clock. Leeds, Thursday, 8th November 1866. PRESENT : ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. JoHN THoRNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Professor John THOMAS WAY. Mr. Robert TENNANT (of Leeds) examined. 6864. (Chairman.) Do you reside near Leeds — Yes. - 6865. Are you engaged in any business in or near Leeds?—Yes; I am a partner in the firm of Messrs. Hives and Atkinson, flax spinners. 6866. Where is the mill situated 2–In East Street. 6867. Near any becks or rivers ?—it is on the river Aire, at the junction of the Sheepscar beck with that river. 6868. What is the name of the mill 2–Bank Mills. 6869. What number of hands do you employ 2– They vary from 1,200 to 1,400. 6870. What weight of flax do you treat per annum ? —Between 2,000 and 2,500 tons. 6871. Is it grown in England or in Ireland?—It comes principally from Ireland, to some extent from Russia,and to a very small extent it is grown in England. 6872. Do you use water in the processes of manu- facture?—We use it for the engines, for condensing and boiler purposes, also for filling the spinning troughs with hot water to macerate the fibre in the process of spinning. 6873. To what condition has the flax been brought then 2–It is scutched. 6874. When the flax has been freed from the woody fibre all the steeping and soaking has been done P-Yes. 6875. Flax, as it is produced in a vegetable state, undergoes a process of steeping 2–Yes. 6876. In that steeping a considerable amount of water is polluted 2–1 believe so, but we have nothing to do with that process. 6877. Do you use much water?—from about 1,000 to 1,200 gallons per minute. 6878. Where do you get it from ?–From the river. 6879. Do you obtain any from the Corporation Waterworks or elsewhere?— None for the mills; we obtain some for drinking purposes from the waterworks company. In a dry time, when the river is very offensive, which it often is, we use the waterworks water for filling the spinning troughs. 6880. And for steam boiler purposes?—No. 6881. What engine power do you use 2–800-horse. 6882. Do you know what weight of coals you con- sume per annum ?–From 10,000 to 11,000 tons. 6883. What weight of ashes does that quantity of coal produce?—I think it costs about 21. a week to lead them away. There are about 24 tons a week— nearly 1,250 tons a year. 6884. About one-fifth of the weight of the coal goes into ashes?—I believe that is about the calculation. 6885. Do you use any water power ?–No. 6886. How long have these works been established on the river?—A long time, nearly 50 years, 6887. Is the water better or worse now than it was at first –It is very much worse. 6888. Is it injuriously worse in the process of manufacture ?—Certainly. 6889. Have you at any time since those works have been established passed waste ashes into the river ?— I believe never. 6890. Are there any restrictive clauses in the Aire and Calder Acts to prevent your doing it —The proprietors of the Aire and Calder Navigation are conservators of the river for navigation purposes, and I am certain that they would prevent any deposit of ashes in the rivers if it were attempted. 6891. Do you know the rivers of Yorkshire generally above or below this point?—Yes; I know the neigh- bourhood of the Aire and the Wharfe well. 6892. Do you know the rivers in the neighbourhood of Huddersfield and Dewsbury and that district –- No ; I am not so well acquainted with them. 6893. Do you think that any manufacturer is justified in discharging his ashes into streams?— Certainly not. 6894. You think that in all cases ashes ought to be kept out of streams?—I think so, certainly. 6895. Would you be surprised if I told you that persons burning almost as many coals as you do never cart a load of ashes away, but pass them all into the stream 2–I certainly should, for I never heard of it. 6896. If such a thing takes place, I suppose you would say, as a person interested in the district, that it ought to be prevented —Most certainly. 6897. That other parties should be compelled to do what you do?–Yes. 6898. You say that they should take the ashes away 8–Yes. I think we should all be on the same footing. 6899. For what purposes are your ashes used ?— Partly for filling up in foundations for buildings, partly for making streets, and for ballasting on the railway, at the nearest point where they can put them, and where they are wanted. 6900. Do you find that removing them costs you more at one time than another –It is more difficult certainly to do it sometimes than at other times. 6901. And becomes more expensive?—Yes; when we calculated 100l. a year, I should say that some- times we contract for so much a load, and sometimes we use our own horses and carts. 6902. Do you use the town's water by an annual contract, or by meter —By meter. 6903. How much do you pay per 1,000 gallons 2 —6d. 6904. Have you any idea how much you consume in a year ; or the cost of it *—It is very small ; about 25l. a year. Rivers COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 217 6905. What form of pollution do you think injures the water the most for your purposes?—Refuse from tan pits, dyeworks, and gasworks. - 6906. From the gas companies works that supply Leeds with gas —Yes. 6907. What refuse do they pass in 2–We have had tar floating on the surface, and once the piston-rod of the engine was choked, and the engine had to stop, by reason of the gas tar coming into the river and getting into the rings round the piston-rod and choking it. 6908. The tar had been drawn into the piston by the priming of the boiler with fouled water –Yes. 6909. Have you complained as to that state. of things at any time?—It has not occurred within the last few years with the gasworks. - 6910. Are you aware that gas operations may be carried on without passing one ounce of refuse matter into the stream 2–Yes, I understand that that may be done. 6911. If that is the case, and it can be done, do you think that there should be some authority to see that it is done —Decidedly. 6912. Do you think that the gas refuse comes from any small works, or from the town's works —From the town's works. 6913. (Mr. Harrison.) How long ago is it since the choking of the piston rod occurred –Some five years ago. 6914. (Chairman.) How many steam boilers have you on your works?–12. 6915. How often do you cleanse them —The boilers are cleaned two every fortnight. 6916. What is the length of them —They are about 32 feet long. 6917. Are they the ordinary circular boilers 2– Yes. 6918. What is the character of the refuse you get out of them 2–It is principally the caking on the boiler itself. - 6919. Is that a material that will not blow out?— Twice every day every boiler is blown out. 6920. To discharge the refuse mud from the bottom? —Yes. 6921. And yet it is necessary to cleanse once a week 2–Yes, besides. 6922. That is to say, each boiler will go for 12 weeks without cleansing 2–11 weeks. 6923. Is that operation of cleansing carried on more often now than it was some years ago?—I believe it is. - 6924. What arrangement have you upon your premises to get rid of the effete matter from the men working there 2–It all goes direct into a drain which goes into the river at once. - - - - 6925. Have you ever thought of utilizing it in any way 2–No, we never did ; they are now all water- closets. 6926. Have you seen the earth closets of the Reverend Mr. Moule?—No, I have not. 6927. Are you a magistrate of this county –No. The day before yesterday we were stopped for 20 minutes from the pipes being choked up with refuse coming down the river; I mean the supply pipes; it costs us now a considerable amount a year to have the river dredged to keep it in such a state that we can use the river water for engine purposes. 6928. Do you dredge past your works —Yes, a little above. The Aire and Calder proprietors dredge it at our request on our paying for it. 6929. What does it cost per year 2–I am not pre- pared to say. 6930. They dredge at your request, but at your cost.—Yes; they used to dredge at our request without our paying, but now they make us pay. 6931. What kind of material do they usually dredge out there?—I have not noticed it particularly, it is black, dirty-looking stuff. 6932. Do you ever find in your boilers solid sediment from dyewoods and spent bark from tanneries – There is solid refuse which we get out of the spinning 17159.-2, troughs, which goes away every week; we give it away, and it is used as manure. 6933. That comes from your own premises —Yes; still it is the sediment from the water taken from the river ; it comes to a very small extent from our operations. 6934. In the event of any regulation being adopted for purification of rivers, what would your firm say to any restrictive measure being put upon you as to withholding human excrement from the river; would you be prepared to meet the necessary cost of getting rid of the evil?—Yes, certainly. I am sup- posing it can be done at some reasonable expenditure within our power. 6935. Something practicable and marked by com- mon sense 2–Certainly. 6936. Do you think, supposing the most complete arrangements were devised and put in force by yourself, that your example would be sufficient to induce other manufacturers to adopt them —Certainly not. 6937. Is it necessary that some properly constituted authority should be empowered to insist upon the adoption and continuance of those measures, whatever they might be 2–Yes, feasible measures. I think the only means of accomplishing it is, to make it univer- sally compulsory. 6938. Looking at the state of this river now, do you know whether it has become very much worse within the last 20 years or not?—Yes, it has within my own knowledge. 6939. If left alone, looking at the growth of trade, what would you say might be its condition in 20 years hence?—I cannot say that ; but if it goes on becoming as bad in the next 20 years as it has in the last 20 years, it will be almost unfit to use. 6940. If that is the state of a river of this volume, it would be worse with a small stream upon which there were more manufactories —Yes, it is worse now on the Sheepscar beck, four or five times as bad. 6941. As pollutions exist throughout the whole of the drainage areas which are shaded pink on the map, and those pollutions may come down upon Leeds from the very sources of the river, do you think that any authority should be placed in the hands of the 'I'own Council, and should be made co-extensive with the drainage areas –I think that an independent autho- rity, co-extensive with the drainage areas, would be better than a limited authority which could only be vested in the Town Council, and which could not extend beyond its own borough. 6942. The Town Council might be armed with powers within their own borough, but such powers, you think, would have to be made far more extensive —They must extend, I think, to the point where the fouling commences. There are many rivers, in fact I know some in Yorkshire, where there are no Town Councils on the banks, but which would also have to be protected ; there may be local boards of health in some of the villages, but no general jurisdiction, I think, is exercised by anyone. 6943. Do your workmen complain as to the stench from the river in dry weather ?—I have complained myself many times; sometimes it is so positively offensive that sitting in the office is really quite un- bearable. 6944. Have you noticed, during the time that the river is so bad, floating carcases of dead animals thrown on the mud banks 2–Yes, I have seen them going down the river, and in the small beck. I have seen them in considerable numbers. 6945. Lying there for a considerable time 2—I believe they lie there until the next fresh takes them down. 6946. Or until they decompose ?—Yes. 6947. Do you think it would be a very easy process immediately to remove all such forms of nuisance 2– I believe that means have already been put in force, as to the particular beck I refer to, for narrowing the area of the beck, and letting the water go in a smaller channel, which would have that effect. E e LEEDS. -- Mr. R. Tennant. 8 Nov. 1866. 218 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 6948. If the floating carcases are not removed and buried, do you think it would effect a cleansing of the beck simply to narrow its channel so that it would float them downwards into the main stream 7–No. I think they ought to be taken out and buried when they are seen. 6949. As far as is practicable, I assume that you would prohibit the throwing in of carcases of dead animals?—Yes, I would. 6950. And fine persons who were found doing it? —Yes. 6951. (Mr. Harrison.) Did you not say that you use about 1,000 gallons of water per minute –Yes. 6952. That is 60,000 gallons an hour –Yes. 6953. Working 10 hours a day —Yes. 6954. That is 600,000 gallons a day ?–Yes. 6955. You say that you pay to the corporation about 25l. a year for water?—Yes. 6956. How many thousand gallons would that be at 6d. a gallon 2–1 looked at the last quarter's bill and I saw that it was 250,000 gallons. I think the bill was about 6/. 6957. About a million gallons a year –Yes. 6958. Whereas you use actually about 600,000 gallons per day ?–Yes. 6959. You pay to the water company 25l. in one year for a little more than one day's consumption ?— Yes. 6960. Taking your consumption at 600,000 gallons a day, what would the payment be to the water company per day at 6d. a gallon, if you bought the whole of it from them –15l. a day. 6961. You would have to pay that to the water company if you took all from them –Yes, if it came to that. - 6962. You say that the water of the river is so bad that you are obliged to have recourse to the water company for a supply, as the other is not suitable for your purpose 2–Yes. 6963. On what occasions has that occurred 2-In a very dry time when the river has been very offensive, but then we have only used the town water for filling the spinning-frame troughs, not for condensing or boiler purposes. 6964. Taking those 600,000 gallons of water, what are the different purposes for which it is used?—For condensing and boiler purposes, for the spinning frame troughs, and for the waterclosets. 6965. How much is used for those purposes P-Of the 600,000 gallons used daily, 500,000 go back to the river from the air-pumps, 20,000 are used in the boilers for steam, 5,000 are absorbed by the yarn which is afterwards dried, 1,500 are returned to the river from spinning troughs, 73,500 are used for flushing waterclosets. 6966. Then one half is more or less polluted from the waterclosets or from the machinery –That is so. 6967. What portion of the 600,000 gallons should you be obliged to have recourse to the water com- panies for, supposing that the water of the river was so polluted that it was not suitable for your purposes?— It happens so rarely and for so short a time that I cannot say. 6968. How much water do you use daily for the purposes which require pure water –In ordinary times we use the river water for every purpose, except for drinking. Supposing the river was always so offensive as it is at the particular times when we resort to the waterworks company for water, I am not prepared to say how much per annum we should require. 6969. (Professor Way.) If the water were to go on getting more and more impure, as it must do, would there not come a time when you must either buy water at a ruinous cost or give up your business, and then what quantity of water would be absolutely necessary for you?—I am not prepared to say at this moment. 6970. I think you stated that from 2,000 to 2,500 tons of flax were used per annum in your works?— LEEDS. Mr.R.Tennant. 8 Nov. 1866. Yes. - 6971. And you have stated the quantity of water that is used ?–Yes. 6972. I think you will find that the quantity of flax used per day would be seven or eight tons –Yes. 6973. Then the proportion would be something like 400 tons of water to each ton of flax 2–I have not calculated it. 6974. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the present cost of pumping water from the river ?—I cannot separate it from the general engine expenses. 6975. What height do you pump it 2–No great height. The river flows close past the foundations of the mills. 6976. (Chairman.) Of what diameter is the pump that lifts the water from the river ?—The pumps vary from 2 feet 6 to 16 inches. We have six pumps, and those are the diameters of the pumps. 6977. (Professor Way.) What is the object of the hot water that is used for the flax; to soften it?– Yes; in the process of spinning, it is to separate and macerate the fibre. 6978. Does it take out any gummy matter –Yes, whatever is left in it. 6979. What is the nature of the liquid that comes away from it 2–The water itself is not more impure than when it comes in, but there is a residuum which, as I have said, is sold for manure, or it is taken away for that purpose. That residuum comes by subsi- dence. - 6980. Is any of that residuum to be found in the water which has not subsided ?–I think that some of it goes back into the river. 6981. If any ready means of filtration not taking up a large space could be found, that might be separated too —If any means could be devised to do it we should be glad of it. - 6982. You mentioned something as to gas tar, and it is desirable that the question should not be misunderstood; was it five years ago that the occur- rence you referred to took place 2–Yes. 6983. Probably at that time gastar was not so much in demand as it is now *-I do not know. 6984. You know that the aniline dyes are made from gas tar?—Yes. 6985. So that the gas companies probably do not lie under that stigma now 2–I do not know. 6986. Do you anticipate that you shall always be able to dispose of your ashes for building and so on 2 —So long as the borough continues to extend I suppose we shall. There is increased difficulty occasionally in it, but as a rule we can get them away. 6987. There is no flax, I believe, grown in this neighbourhood —Not within eight or ten miles. 6988. Did not Mr. Marshall grow a quantity of flax 2–Yes. 6989. Was it more for experiment than anything else —No ; it was carried out to a large extent. 6990. Had he not reclaimed a quantity of land for the purpose —I do not know, but he used to grow it largely. 6991. Where was it retted 2–On the spot. 6992. Is there any retted in this district 2–Not that I am aware of ; I do not retany. 6993. Supposing that any plan could be suggested to you for absolutely purifying this flax water before it runs into the river, what would you consider a burdensome expense to meet 2—I think I may say that we should not feel the loss of such a sum as Mr. Alder- man George mentioned yesterday. 6994. Or perhaps twice that amount?—I do not know that. 6995. Would not the sum be inconsiderable com- pared with the interests concerned in having clean water to use –Decidedly. - 6996. If you were putting up your flax mills now, and the question was whether you should have the water as you have it, or comparatively pure water, it would make an immense difference I presume in your view as to where you should erect the mills?—Cer- tainly, if we had all other things equal, it would make all the difference. Rivers commission :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 219 6997. Taking for granted that everybody did the same thing 2–Yes. 6998. Should we be justified in inferring that as you use so many thousand gallons of water per day for a purpose for which you require comparatively pure water, and the river is becoming more and more im- pure year by year, if it is allowed to be polluted at the same rate for some years to come, the water will be quite unfitted for your purpose, and you will be driven to purchase other water at the rate of 6d. per 1,000 gallons, and you will be a loser of so much per annuin -No ; I am not prepared to say that. 6999. What would be your remedy?—That I am not either prepared to say: no doubt some means might be resorted to that would purify the water suffi- ciently for that particular purpose without going to the expense of 6d. per 1,000 gallons, The witness withdrew. Mr. Alderman RoRERT M. CARTER (of Leeds) examined. 7000. (Chairman.) How long have you been resi- dent in Leeds 2—About 35 years. 7001. You are an alderman and a member of the Town Council of the borough of Leeds –Yes. 7002. And chairman of the Waterworks Committee ? —Yes. - 7003. And you have taken a very active interest, I believe, in the municipal government of Leeds 2—I have for the last 16 years. 7004. You have been chairman of the Scavenging and Nuisance Committee 2–Yes, for six or seven years, I think. 7005. I think you have had something to do with getting the new Improvement Act 2–I have. 7006. For the better government of the borough —Yes. 7007. You have also, I believe, recently obtained an Act to enable you to deal with the becks and to improve their condition ?—Yes. 7008. Did you take part in the sanitary works that were carried out some years ago 2–Yes, as a member of the Council, and also as a member of the Sewerage Committee. I remember being a member of the Sewerage Committee for one year only, but I have taken part as chairman of the Nuisance Committee, and I have come into contact a good deal with the Streets Committee, as to the sewerage, and I under- stand pretty well the whole of the system of sewerage. 7009. Is Leeds in a better sanitary condition than it was 10 or 15 years ago?—I do not think the death rate is less, considering what has been done to improve the town, but one would infer that it should be in a better sanitary condition. 7010. You have spent large sums, I believe, on the main sewers ?—We have. 7011. Do you know the death rate of other towns with populations approaching to that of Leeds, such as Birmingham, Sheffield, Manchester, and Liverpool?— I know it simply from the registrar's returns. I know that Liverpool is worse a good deal than Leeds, and I know that Birmingham is much better than Leeds. 7012. But you cannot account for it?–No ; unless the young people at Birmingham leave Birmingham for other towns. I know that the birth rate at Bir- mingham is as large as the birth rate at Leeds, but the death rate is immensely below. 7013. Have you ever made a personal inspection of any other borough than your own 2–Not such an inspection as would enable me to to give any very reliable opinion. I have visited Sheffield and Man- chester and Liverpool, and other places, but only with the view of ascertaining how they dealt with their ashpits and waterclosets. 7014. In Sheffield, I believe, sanitary works have not been carried to anything like the same extent as in Leeds, they have not any system of main sewerage 2 —I do not know. 7015. Did you hear your inspector of nuisances give his evidence yesterday?—I did. 7016. Did you hear it stated that there were at least 1,000 ashpits and middens placed under sleeping rooms?—Yes. 7017. Do you think that that may account for the increased death rate in Leeds 2—Unquestionably ; I think that has very much to do with it, because only the very poorest class of the people occupy those places, the class of people that are the least able to resist disease when it comes upon them. 7018. Did you hear also the evidence that was given with regard to the ventilation of the main sewers ?–Yes. 7019. Taking Leeds and Liverpool, which are not very dissimilar as to gradients, is it possible that there may be something wrong as to the ventilation of the sewers?—Yes; I have several times pressed the question of the ventilation of the sewers on the Town Council during these last six or eight years, because I have observed that fever was generally the worst in the neighbourhood of places where there was an escape of foul gases from the sewers. I will give you an instance. My attention was called to that matter as chairman of the Nuisance Committee. The gradients of some of the sewers are very steep in- deed; the main sewer runs just down by the river for one half of Leeds, and the streets leading to what we call Richmond Hill run along from that main sewer; and fever, I believe, has been prevalent on that hill side for years more than in any other part of the town. I believe it has been in consequence of the sewers not being properly ventilated, especially in that part which may be called the outlet. 7020. Do you know, as chairman of the Nuisance and Sewerage Committee, what is the sectional form of the sewers—oval, or a flat invert Pi—It is the oval egg-shaped sewer. I believe there is no fault what- ever to be found with the sewer itself, with its mode of construction, or anything of that kind. I think if it is defective at all, it is defective in that respect that you pointed out yesterday afternoon in reference to ventilation. 7021. The question of ventilating sewers is one of the most vital questions concerning the health and welfare of the town. In Liverpool, as in Leeds, when you have expended vast sums of money in the hope of improving the sanitary condition of the population, you find that as you spend your money something has increased the rate of mortality. Is not that so?—It appears to be so in Leeds. As far as Leeds is con- cerned I think we are culpable until we really do attempt to remedy it. It has occurred to me that we could ventilate our sewers as the coal masters ventilate their coal pits—for the coal is so cheap that we might actually draw the foul air out of the sewers. 7022. You have a great outlet sewer leading down to the Aire P-Yes. 7023. Do you know whether the mouth of that sewer is open or not ?–It is; it is open I daresay for about a mile. 7024. I mean the end of the sewer where it delivers itself into the open channel; is there any arrangement for a flap valve over the mouth of it 2–No, I think not. - 7025. If the mouth of that sewer was presented to the current of air now moving the air would blow into the sewer, and force up all the gases into the higher parts of Leeds, and instead of ventilating Leeds by this volume of air particular parts in the upper portion of the system may be poisoned much worse than if you had a stagnant atmosphere 2–Yes. 7026. You have a number of cellar dwellings in Leeds 3–Yes, a very large number. 7027. Do you know that formerly cellar dwellings abounded in Liverpool?—No. 7028. About 20 years ago a population of 50,000 persons lived in cellar dwellings, the ceilings of which were below the level of the streets; are the cellar LEEDS. Mr. R. Tennant. 8 Nov. 1866. Mr. Ald. R. M. Carter. E e 2 220 RIVERS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. -- Mr. Ald. R. M. Carter. -- 8 Nov. 1866. dwellings in Leeds, many of them, or any of them, below the level of the adjoining street – Yes; those situated down at the bottom of Kirkgate, in those yards running off from Kirkgate, and on the bank. The cellar dwellings in the out townships of Hunslet and Holbeck are not of that character, but rather of a better character. 7029. Ave any of those cellar dwellings liable to be flooded by overflow from becks that you are aware of: —Very few of them. 7030. Have you ever heard of any being liable to be flooded by the sewage back-watering up in time of floods —No. 7031. Has it been contemplated by the town council to regulate the occupation of the cellar dwellings?—It has. 7032. Do you know that the Liverpool corporation are preparing to expend a large sum of money to remedy the mischief of the last 30 years in the over- crowding of houses —Yes, I do. 7033. They intend to spend many hundreds of thousands in pulling property down 2–Yes. 7034. For the future I suppose you would think that your restrictions ought to be such as to prevent the necessity for similar large expenditure ?–Yes. 7035. Have you much difficulty with your rate- payers in carrying out sanitary improvements; is there much opposition to the expenditure of money for those purposes —No, I do not know that there is: there has been a little stir sometimes got up for politi- cal purposes, but in no case a general opposition of rate- payers to improving the sanitary condition of the town. 7036. You think there is so much good sense among the working men of Leeds, if matters are properly explained to them, and they are shown that these works are necessary for their health, that they would be willing to submit to an increase of the rate, if necessary 2—When I spoke of any opposition I did not at all refer to the working classes; the opposition has always come from the owners of cottage property, not from the working classes; they invariably support any measures for the improvement of either their streets or dwellings, or anything connected with those things. - 7037. Do you know what is considered to be about the rate of interest that an owner of this worst class of property desires to get 2—I think they are getting from seven to 12 per cent. 7038. Do you know, from personal inspection, the state of this class of property –Cottage property has increased very much in value in Leeds in the last five or six years. I am a trustee of one of the largest building societies in England, and therefore know something about the value of cottage property in Leeds; we lend out money to build cottage property, principally, to the amount of something like 8,000l. per month. I know that the cottage property in Leeds at present, or the majority of it, pays from seven to 12 per cent. and the worst cottages and the cellar dwell- ings pay the highest interest of almost any in the whole lot. The best class of cottage property pays the lowest per-centage, and the worst pays the highest. 7039. That being the case, if we pursue that inquiry a little further, it comes to this, that if the bad condition of the property and overcrowding produce disease and fever, and other analogous diseases amongst the working people, it produces to a certain extent pauperism also, and the parish steps in and gives relief ?—Yes. 7040. It gives relief either out of doors or by remov- ing the poorer inhabitants into the workhouse 2–Yes. 7041. If the father is taken off by typhus fever prematurely, his wife and children may become per- manent paupers?—Yes, that is so. 7042. Then, going a little further, is it not almost quite clear that the parish is mulcted, and through the parish the public, for that state of things —No doubt it is the dearest possible way of conducting the affairs of a town to allow a cause of disease to exist to take off the heads of families, and then to keep the children. 7043. Do you know that typhus fever attacks more fiercely and more fatally persons in the prime of life— between 20 and 40 –I do not know that, but I am not surprised to hear it. I know that parties who from time to time enjoy the fresh air and are obliged to come into conditions of atmosphere which are un- vourable, are as liable to take the disease, or more, than those who live regularly in it. 7044. I believe the fact is that where typhus fever attacks an adult in the prime of life he has less chance of recovery than younger or older persons?—It may be so. 7045. To what extent do you, as a corporation, cleanse the ashpits and privies at the public expense? Do you cleanse the whole of the borough, or only a portion of it?—Only a portion of it; only the drainage district of Leeds, Hunslet, and Holbeck. 7046. Do you know what it costs the borough annually to cleanse those ashpits and privies –The net cost now is about 4,000l. per annum. 7047. Is that the net or the gross cost 3–The net cost. It is now let to contractors for 3,800l., but in addition to that we have officers to support to look after the contractors to see that they do their work; it comes to about 4,000l. per annum. 7048. That is a loss to the town of Leeds?—Yes; all the manure belongs to the contractors. 7049. Do you know what is the cost in Manchester? —It is much larger. It is 8,000l. or 10,000l. per annul Inn. 7050. The gross cost is about 20,000l. and the net cost about 10,000l. —I thought it was about 10,000l. When I was first chairman of the Nuisance Committee there was no system whatever of removing the night- soil in Leeds, everybody did as they chose with it. If anybody required the contents of their ashpit to be removed, they had to seek a farmer or hire some one to do it. The corporation, on the recommendation of the Nuisance Committee, took the whole thing into their hands and commenced cleansing the ashpits with their own staff, and it was in my judgment a foolish attempt at economy that led them to let the whole thing go out of their own hands into the hands of contractors. I am satisfied from experience, for I have watched how the contractors do their work and know how it has been done. I am satisfied that the work can be done much cheaper and very much better if it is entirely in the hands of the committee and coun- cil, than it can possibly be done if let out to a con- tractor who does it as slovenly as he can consistently with the terms of his contract. 7051. Do you know whether the scavengers levy a sort of black mail for removing those nuisances –I know they do, because they make a mistake sometimes and they come to my own door. 7052. They watch their opportunity, and when the place becomes an intolerable nuisance they must be bribed, either by beer or a fee of some kind, to come and do what they are paid for doing –That is so, so far as the workmen are concerned, not the contractors; but they say that the men very often do a thing of that kind—they object to clean a place out, if it is inconveniently situated. 7053. As a committee it would not come under your cognizance unless persons complained of it 2– No ; we should not know of it at all. In fact, we very seldom get to know of these extortions; we often have to publish notices in the papers requesting parties not to give drink and fees to the men. 7054. Is there much overcrowding in any parts of Leeds from want of cottage accommodation?—I believe we have a good deal. 7055. The growth of dwellings is not so rapid as the growth of the population ?—No, especially in Leeds township. 7056. Have you any restrictive powers as to over- crowding —Yes; we have now an Act. I think the Common Lodging Houses Act of last session has been extended, and we can apply it to more thoroughly to others than nightly lodgers, RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 221 7057. How do you raise your money for your building purposes —Part of the members are deposi- tors and others builders, and of course in proportion to the extent of our contributions are we able to lend out money for building purposes. 7058. At what rate of interest do you lend it?— Four and a half per cent. 7059. Are you acquainted with Mr. Torrens McCul- loch's bill to erect dwelling-houses for the poor —I have heard of it. It gives to corporations the power to do it. 7060. And enables boards of guardians to obtain money from the government at 3% per cent. Do you think that such a scheme could be usefully adopted P —Yes, in a place like Leeds, where there is a great scarcity of cottage dwellings for the poor. 7061. Where houses are to be made wholesome there might be a low rate of interest ?—Yes. | 7062. You cannot expect to build comfortable cot- tages and get 10 and 15 per cent, on the outlay ?—No. I may say that about a dozen of us formed ourselves into a cottage building society some years since in Leeds, and we set to work to build model cottages such as working men ought to live in, having three bedrooms and two lower rooms, a sitting room and a scullery. We built I think, six or eight blocks, from 12 to 20 houses in each block, selling them off for just as much as they cost us, letting the working men take them just at the price they had cost us, but we did not succeed in building houses that would let at the cottage rent. 7063. If you could have obtained an Act such as that contemplated from the State, and could have procured money at 3% per cent., giving the property as security, could you have done any better 2–I think we might. 7064. Have you any arrangement by which the men may redeem what has been expended in the building by paying an extra rental, and become possessed of the property after a certain number of years?—Not so far as we are concerned. Our intention has been just to build them and offer them for sale in a finished state, leaving the men to raise the money as they could; we have lent all the assistance we could. Several of us are members of a cottage building society, and we have asked the men to come to the building society and deposit there 30l., and pay off the rest in thirteen years and a half. 7065. They would live rent free during that time, and pay in the shape of rent an annual instalment or monthly instalment to cover the interest and pay off the remaining part of the capital —Yes. I may say that where men have taken these houses they pay a little more rent, but a very little more, through the building society than they would have to pay if the house was not to be their own in 13 years—sixpence or a shilling a week more. The house is their own all the time, that is to say, at the end of 13 years it will be their own, with the power during the whole of that time of disposing of it if they should fall into difficulty. 7066. Are there many common lodging houses in Leeds 2–Not a large number, in proportion to the inhabitants, compared to other towns. 7067. Are they registered 2–They are. 7068. And under the supervision of a common lodging-house inspector P-Yes. When the Common Lodging House Act was passed some years since, Mr. Newsome, a land surveyor, of Leeds, and I put it in force in Leeds, and during that time we had an oppor- tunity of visiting nearly all the low lodging houses and nearly all the overcrowded dwellings in the town. 7069. What are your rates in Leeds now, the general district rate –It is about one-third of the gross rental. 7070. Does that include the poor's rate 2–Yes, and the highway rate and the improvement and every other rate. 7071. Is that high as compared with other towns in Yorkshire —I think it is rather high. 7072. You have borrowed your money for the main sewers repayable in 30 years, have you not?—Yes. 7073. At what rate of interest did you borrow it 2 —I believe it has been principally borrowed up to this time at about 4 per cent, some of it I know has been borrowed at 3% per cent. 7074. And you are gradually paying it off?—Yes. 7075. Therefore your heavy rates are added to by that repayment?—Yes, undoubtedly, and yet we go on expending money. The principal sum was to be 100,000l., I think, for the main sewer, and 50,000l. for the branches; we are keeping up, I believe, about that sum, because we are carrying out now what you may call the branch sewers, having made the mains. 7076. Have you contemplated any utilization of your sewage; has it been brought to your attention ? —In reference to our own it has not. I always thought that Leeds was very favourably situated as to utilization of sewage. 7077. You now pollute the river Aire, do you not ? —Yes. 7078. Ought that to be allowed to go on —I wonder it has gone on so long. 7079. You pollute the becks through the town ; that is, the manufacturers do?—There is not a pure stream running now anywhere about Leeds. 7080. (Mr. Harrison.) Within how many miles should you say?—If you go beyond that point (pointing to the map) the streams will be pure. Manufacturers have not gone in the direction of Wetherby; to the south and south-west of Leeds all the streams are polluted almost to their source. I do not know of any except the becks coming down from the place I referred to that are pure ; upon the becks that come from Headingley and that neighbourhood there are mills and tanneries, and they are polluted almost from their source. - 7081. (Chairman.) If you do all you can to purify the becks in your own area, you would desire to see that some authority should carry out the same opera- tion beyond you ?—Certainly. I think that one rule should apply to all of us in that respect, and then it would be a less hardship. 7082. If rivers are to be purified, isolated measures will never do it?—Never. Some general measure must be introduced which shall deal with everybody, from the top to the bottom of every stream, 7083. What are you in business?—A coal merchant and a cloth finisher. 7084. In cloth finishing do you use water ?–To a very small extent. 7085. Do you create any form of pollution yourself? —Cloth finishers do not create any : they merely put the gloss and face upon the cloth ; the cloth comes to the finisher in a clean state, and no pollution is caused during the time he has it in his hands; if there is any pollution, it is when the cloth goes from the finisher to the dyer, but it comes to the cloth finisher clean and washed. 7086. As chairman of the Waterworks Committee I assume you know what the present supply of water to Leeds is :-Yes, pretty well. 7087. I presume you know the scheme of Mr. Filliter 2–Yes, I do. 7088. You know the population of Leeds, and the volume of water which is at present pumped into Leeds —Yes. Y 7089. And the source from which it comes?— €S. 7090. Upon what grounds have you projected a larger scheme of water supply –In the first place, our reason for leaving our present source is, that we do not think it pure enough for Leeds. Our second reason is, that our supply is getting fast exhausted, and the demand has increased so much ; at the rata of something like half a million gallons a day per annum, that we anticipate in a few years, we should require a larger supply, and now when we are carrying out our works, we think that we really ought to lay them out for something like 20 or 30 years to come, and not be always tinkering with the question. LEEDS. Mr. Ald. R. M. Carter. 8 Nov. 1866. - E e 3 222 -RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, I,EEDS. Mr. Ald. R. M. Carter. 8 Nov. 1866. 7090a. The river Wharfe is a large river, I believe * —Yes. - 7091. You have power to take out some 6,000,000 of gallons a day ?–Yes. - 7092. But you have never taken that volume out yet 2—No ; I think never. 7093. The cause of impurity is the drainage of Otley in the first place —Yes. 7ó94. There are some tanworks there also –Yes. 7095. And the drainage of some other villages and towns besides?—Yes; the drainage begins at Poole, just above our present works; there is a paper mill at Poole which turns out more filth than I would like to think about; at Otley you have the same thing ; there is a large mill, and there is the sewage of Otley, and the manufactories of Burley and Addingham. 7096. Are you acquainted with the Thames Conser- vancy Act of last session for the purification of the Thames —Not particularly. 7097. Do you know that the Thames is the source of water supply for five of the great companies sup- plying the west end of London –Yes, above Thames Ditton. 7098. Do you know the amount of the population upon the Thames above that point 2–No. 7099. Do you know that there are very large towns, like Oxford, Reading, and Windsor, on the Thames?— Yes. 7100. Do you know that there are clauses in the Act prohibiting the passing of sewage into the Thames after a certain time?—Not precisely. I have gone through a good deal of the evidence that was presented to Parliament in reference to sewage passing into the Thames above Thames Ditton. 7101. You have not seen the evidence presented to the Government by this Commission –No. 7102. If all sources of pollution were stopped above your pumping station as they are to be stopped on the Thames, would that modify or alter your ideas as to your projected works –It would not alter mine, because of the advantage in getting softer and better water. I do not think you ought to supply water to Leeds with 10° of hardness in it if you can get water containing from 2° to 4° within easy reach by an expenditure of some 10,000l. or 20,000l. or 30,000l. I should be for leaving the Wharfe to go to a better source, independently of all questions of sewerage. I was a member of the Waterworks Committee for 16 years, and I did my utmost in the town council to prevent us ever going to the Wharfe. 7103. Do you know the supply at Glasgow —Only by report. 7104. Do you know that Glasgow formerly took its supply from the Clyde, just above the city –Yes. 7105. I suppose you know that it takes it now from Loch Katrine, which is a pure source –Yes. 7106. And that they have expended upwards of a million of money in doing it —Yes, 7107. Do you know what Mr. Bateman calculates to be the saving in soap and other material?—I do not know what it is, but from my own calculations as to our own water, it must be very considerable indeed at Glasgow. - 7108. Have you formed any idea as to what would be the saving in Leeds, between water with 10° of hardness and water with 24° 2–Roughly from 15,000l. to 20,000l. per annum. When you deal with these figures people will hardly believe them ; those who do not go into the question of saving in a day in soap, and in the wear and tear of clothes. 7109. What amount of money do you contemplate raising for your extended scheme now * – From 150,000l. to 200,000l., I believe, will be required to carry out our present contemplated scheme—that will be for 14,000,000 gallons—not for the entire scheme as indicated by the plans of Mr. Filliter. In reference to the river itself, my business premises are on the banks of the river Aire, and I have usually about 20 boats passing up and down the river; and in refe- rence to that I may say that during the last 18 years there has been a very marked difference in the condition of the river Aire. You have the water coming down sometimes comparatively clear, I mean when it is tolerably still water in the river, you can see six inches or a foot perhaps by the side of the boats down into the water, but immediately that there is the slightest fresh then you get the filth down from above, no doubt from Bradford and all the towns up above, tum- bling down the river. Immediately you get a thorough flood the river is abominable. It often stinks awfully just at the commencement of the flood, when the river begins to sweep down all the filth that has been depo- sited for weeks between Bradford and Leeds. 7110. When the flood begins to stir it up 2–Yes. 7111. The sediment is deposited during the dry weather ?–Yes. 7112. Then after the flood has gone by the river is in a better condition for a short time, is it not *—Yes, it is. Some questions were put yesterday to Dr. Chadwick, in reference to the death rate and birth rate. I will just put in a few figures that I have taken out of the Registrar General’s returns for the last nine months. These figures refer to the death rate. I think it is calculated higher than it really is, in con- sequence of the increase of population not being taken sufficiently into account. In 1861 the birth rate in all England was 35 per 1,000. In London it was 35 per 1,000, and in Leeds, which was increasing very rapidly at that time, it was 38 in 1,000. In 1864, taking the population of 1861 as the basis in all these cases, the birth rate in England was 37 per 1,000, and in London it was 37 per 1,000, but in Leeds, in 1864, it had got up to 42 per 1,000; it had gone up five above the average of the country and of London. The birth rates this year and the last are about the same. Taking the population of 1861 as the basis, the birth rate of all England last year and this (taking the average of the nine months of the present year) is 38; London is 38 ; London city is 17 ; the West Riding of Yorkshire is 42; Leeds is 44; Birmingham is 43 ; and Liverpool is 36, with a death rate of 51, calculated on the same population. The Manchester birth rate is 36, with a death rate of 36, reckoned on the same principle. Sheffield has a birth rate of 47, 11 upon 1,000 above Manchester, and Bristol 33. At Settle, which is purely an agricultural district in our neighbourhood, and is perhaps the best sample of the district, the birth rate is 30 in 1,000. But what is very remarkable in Leeds, and what, in my judg- ment, shows that there is an immense increase in the population is this-Leeds proper, the township of Leeds, is one district according to the registrar's returns, Hunslet is an out district, Holbeck is another, and Kirkstall, which includes Burley, is another, and those three districts comprise that part of the borough of Leeds where there is the largest increase in the population. Now, the birth rate in Leeds itself is 42 or 44, independently of those out districts where the population is increasing at a very large rate. Holbeck, which is a separate district, has been divided from some other districts by the registrar general in order that he might know more particularly the death rate there. The birth rate in 1861 was 40 in 1,000; in 1864 it was 44; in 1865.46. In Kirkstall, which in- cludes a very large population, and is in fact part of Leeds (Whittam's foundry is in Burley), in 1865 the birth rate was 47, and in 1866 it was 49. If you take Hunslet, a place where there has been the largest increase in any part of the borough, the birth rate in 1861 was 38; in 1863, 50 ; in 1864, 60 ; in 1865, 60 ; and in 1861, 61 in 1,000. What I have said before is that the register general is not giving us credit for the real amount of increase of population, especially in those out districts, and that if we reckon those births, and we say 38 births means 38 in 1,000 people, then there will be in Leeds 139,000 as the population, and if we reckon 38 in those three out townships, then we should have 125,000 of popu- lation, instead of 90,000, as we are credited with in the registrar's returns. I will put these figures in, having heard the evidence given by Dr. Chadwick on the point (handing in the same). In reference RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 223 to the drainage districts of Leeds, of Hunslet, and Holbeck since 1857, there have been 9,025 additional ratings, showing that there has been an immense in- crease in the population. 7113. That would represent, I suppose, about 50,000 people?—About that, but that is only in the drainage districts of Leeds, Hunslet, and Holbeck; it does not include Wortley, which is a most thriving place, and Burley. The rateable value has increased in proportion. 7114. (Mr. Harrison.) The borough of Leeds alto- gether has increased more largely than most towns in England from the commencement of this century – I think so. 7115. That increase has not arisen from people being born in the borough so much as from the influx of people from other districts —That is so, in order to supply the large ironworks which have been estab- lished in the last 10 or 15 years with hands. 7116. That influx would be of young people com- paratively, would it not ?–Yes. 7117. And you might expect a larger birth rate from an increasing population of that kind than you would from a town in a permanent condition ?–Yes, certainly. 7118. Can you tell me whether the manufactories that are carried on in Leeds employ a great number of the females of Leeds 2—Yes, they do ; some manufac- tures especially. 7119. Are you sufficiently acquainted with Bir- mingham to say whether, in proportion, there is a similar number of females employed there 2–1 do not know. 7120. If you have manufactories that employ more females, as compared with Birmingham, that may ac- count for the death rate to some extent 2–I cannot account for the difference in any other way ; it must be owing to something of that kind. The death rate of Leeds will be higher, I think, than the death rate of Birmingham. trades in Leeds, I think. 7121. Which are they 2-Especially the flax trade. In flax mills children and young women often work amongst dust which must be very inju- rious to their health; that is in one part of the flax mills. In another part of them they spin their threads through hot water, and the young women stand with their mouths and nostrils very near the hot-water trough. It runs the whole length of the spinning frame, and there is a constant dropping from the thread down on the ground, and I cannot but imagine that those young people must be to some ex- tent injured by breathing such an atmosphere. Where you have such a large number of these steam troughs with hot water in connexion with the spinning frames, the temperature of the whole room is so altered that it must injure the young people who work there to a cer- tain extent. 7122. And those young people are chiefly children and young women —Yes, they are nearly all Irish now, the class of young people that live in the worst parts of the town, and who would be most liable to disease. English girls have had facilities for the last few years of getting to the power-looms in connexion with the worsted business and with the cloth business, and they are getting to be employed with the sewing machines in large towns like Leeds. English girls have almost entirely got into better occupation, and those flax mills, where there is such a large amount of dust and heat and steam, are filled almost entirely with the children of the lowest class of people. 71.23. You would say that the rapid increase of Leeds, arising from the influx of young people to sup- ply the wants of the manufacturers, would account in a great measure for the increased births, as compared with many other towns, especially country towns; and that the unhealthy occupation of many of the females would account in some measure for the increased death rate —Yes, I think so. 7124. You stated just now that the cleaning out of the cesspits of Leeds cost about 4,000l. a year 2–Yes. There are some very unhealthy 71.25. Mr. Filliter yesterday in his evidence men- tioned that if you carried out any system of sewage irrigation, you must provide pumping power for about 10,000,000 gallons a day, raising that quantity 25 feet, at the rate of 12s. 6d. per million gallons, or in all 6l. 5s, a day ?–Yes. 7126. Therefore from that it would appear that the cost of pumping all the sewage at present passing down, as contemplated by Mr. Filliter, would not amount nearly to the sum you at present pay for carting out a part of the ashes and the contents of the cesspits 2–No, certainly not. 7127. That those cesspits are a source of ill health to the town is admitted, I suppose?—They are a great abomination in Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, and nearly all those towns. 7128. Therefore, the argument seems to be most decidedly in favour of the corporation of Leeds taking some steps to have those cesspits done away with, and apply the sewage to the land?—With that view we have got a clause inserted in our last Act to compel owners of property to construct waterclosets instead of privies and ashpits. We take power as well to compel parties to fill up their sumpts, and it would be a great blessing if all of them were abolished. 7129. You think that by that means you would have increased health at no extra expense, and possibly a diminution of your expenses?—Yes, I think that what the Town Council expended the Board of Guardians would save. 7130. As the inspector of nuisances stated yesterday, wherever he finds these pollutions most rife, there he finds the relieving officer in closer attendance 2–Yes, no doubt of it. 7131. With regard to cottages that you are building, what area do you have attached to each cottage for garden ground 2–In nearly all cases we have given a small garden in front, and a back yard, with a separate petty in it. Some three or four yards at the front and the same at the back; every house has a separate and distinct entrance into its own garden, and a separate and distinct entrance into the back yard. 7132. Would it not be desirable that you should have it provided that that should not be built upon 2– Yes, I think so. 7133. You have stated that almost all the streams in the neighbourhood of Leeds to the south-west are polluted 2–Yes. 7134. And are becoming more and more polluted every year 7–Yes. 7135. So that the question as to whence water is to be derived for the supply of the increasing population becomes one of very great importance 2–It does. I may say that the increase of manufacturies has been such in Leeds that every now and then we are all of us obliged to go deeper down with our boreholes for water for ordinary purposes. Somebody comes and builds a mill next to you and sinks a well a few yards deeper than yours, and then you must go lower than he has gone. 7136. Have you a deep well that you pump from ? —Not on my premises. 7137. Mr. Filliter stated yesterday that the Low Moor Iron Company have a pumping establishment at Beeston, and it was thought that they pump now to such an extent as to affect the pumping in Leeds. Have you any information upon that point 2–I believe that, but there are other people besides those at Beeston. There are pumps going on the other side of Leeds, and those all tend to draw the water away from the valley, and we constantly find parties applying to us, the waterworks company, to supply them with water while they are making their wells a little lower. That is so every year, and is becoming more so year by year. - -- 7138. The dip of the strata is from you ?–Yes. 7139. So that anybody pumping in that direction is likely to leave you dry –Yes, for the last eight or ten years that has been the case; the richest men have got down the deepest and so spoiled some of the smaller ones. Such firms as Messrs. Marshall's, Tetley's, the LEEDS. Mr. Ald. R. M. Carter. 8 Nov. 1866. E e 4 224 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, LEEDS, Mr. Ald. R. M. Carter. 8 Nov. 1866. Mr. Ald. D. Yewdall. Old Forge Company, and several others, go down deepest and dry out their neighbours. 7140. And you are driven towards the north-west to obtain a large water supply of some kind?—Yes; and it is very important that we should have really a good supply, as the manufacturers will be more and more dependent upon the waterworks for their supplies. 7141. That is at the bottom of the question of going further for a larger and softer supply of water ; your manufacturers are more likely to require that water ? —Yes. - 7142, Can you give us some information as to the 20,000l. that you calculate saving from obtaining a supply of softer water P-I have not any figures at present here, but I will supply them to you. 7143. (Professor Way.) Do you remember how much you set down to soap and how much to tea —I think about one-half. 7144. It is clear that until you can get lather from the soap the soap is wasted, but it is not equally clear that because you do not get a dark-coloured tea you have wasted your tea : you make a stronger-coloured tea, and you get what we call more matter out of the tea; but whether you get any greater benefit from the tea, except the look of it, is a question —I cannot answer that question. I was told by the clerk to the guardians that they have, by sinking a well of their own, got very soft water, and that they are ceasing to use the town’s water, and that they have saved 40l. per annum in soap. I take it that in the workhouse, where there is a definite number of people always living, and washing going on, if you can save that, it is easy to calculate what a population of 250,000 would give in saving at the same rate. 7145. You stated before that when the river is tolerably quiet, and there is no fresh for some time, the water becomes clear for a foot or two from the surface 2–Six inches down. We have just had some very heavy floods within these last two or three weeks, but when the river becomes still again you will find nearly all the sewage of the towns above Leeds settling in the bed of the river. When the dyers are not making very free use of the water, which is the case sometimes, especially in the morning, you will have the water appearing tolerably clear, but as soon as it is a little stirred by the flood, down comes the sewage. 7146. You mean to say that there is a sediment as distinguished from the coloured water —Yes. 71.47. Would not that encourage the hope that sºme measures may be taken in the different manufactories to separate that sediment before it is thrown into the river ?–It would be a great benefit if it was done, it is a terrible waste now. It would be a great benefit to some of the manufacturers if they would take out their soap that they turn out into the rivers from scouring cloth and wool, instead of turning all of it into the streams. 7.148. Supposing that an individual manufacturer, without waiting for any general accord or any legisla- tion, were now at a moderate expense to purify the water, is it not just possible that the water so purified might be better for his use than the river water — That I do not know. - 7149. (Chairman.) Do you filter the water that you pump from the Wharfe —Yes. 7150. With a sand filter ?–Yes. 715]. Is that the best sample that you can put before the Commission (pointing to a bottle) —One reason we have for going for a better supply is because the water of the Wharfe is sometimes very peaty ; that is the peaty water of the Wharfe in the bottle. 7152. Do you believe that the Washbourn water is better than the Wharfe water –We may be induced to take some steps, if it is not better, to take out the peat effectually, which I believe we can do at an expense of from 20,000l. to 30,000l. 7153. (Professor Way.) Or otherwise to keep it from getting in 2–1 think there would be great diffi- culty in doing that ; if it could be filtered through the hills before we got it it would be all the better. 7154. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you gone into the question of expenditure for water per head by the population ; for instance, if a person has an average supply of 16 gallons per head, how is that used in the household P-I think a large quantity is used that we do not get paid for. I think the better classes of houses, some of those that have baths and waterclosets, use a large quantity above their share in proportion to what they pay for. 7155. It is a very important point where water is becoming so scarce –Yes; I find that all other large towns and large water companies have the same diffi- culties to deal with ; all of them have a very great leakage that they cannot account for or find out. Our consumption is about 16 gallons per head, including what goes for manufacturing purposes and brewing ; about one-sixth of the quantity goes for manufacturing purposes. 7156. (Chairman.) What is your rate of charge for private consumers upon the rental?—Five per cent. 7157. Do you think that persons who pay a higher rental use proportionately more water 2–Yes, if they are in the same circumstances as my friend here, Mr. Filliter; we shall have to put him a meter on. 7158. (Mr. Harrison.) I suppose the town is so locally divided between quarters for the poor and quarters for the rich that you might place the meter so as to determine by experiment how much per head was used by the poor population as compared with the rich?---I think that might be done if you tested a district like Headingley, and then a district like Holbeck, where you have nearly exclusively cottage property. 7159. (Chairman.) Do you supply the hotels by meter –No, on the rentals, and the number of water- closets and urinals, I think. 7160. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you observed the river recently, after standing still on Sunday, or after three or four holidays —No, I have not perceived any difference at those times. 7161–2. At Whitsuntide I presume they very fre- quently clear out the ponds, so that the river might be really more polluted although the mills are not at work 2 —Sometimes they do, I daresay ; but there are very few ponds I think above us of that class that need cleansing. It is not with us on the Aire as it is above Huddersfield. They have to cleanse very dif- ferently; at least their dams are not of such a large size. Mr. Alderman DAVID YEwd ALL (of Calverley, Leeds,) examined. 7163. (Chairman.) Are you a native of Leeds 2— No, I live at Calverley. - 7164. You are an alderman of the borough 2–Yes. 7165. How long have you been a member of the corporation ?—Seven or eight years. 7166. What business do you carry on 2–I am a cloth manufacturer. 7167. Where is your manufactory situated 2–I have one at Calverley and another at Bromley. 7168. Are they on any stream 2–Calverley is situ- ated on the river Aire, and the other is in Bramley, situated on no river or beck. 7169, What number of hands do you employ at the Calverley mills 2–I can scarcely tell you. We scribble, and slub, and spin, and put out a good deal of work for men to weave. At Calverley we pay weekly rather more than 100l. for wages, and we pay perhaps 150l. at Bramley. Besides that we have a •large number of people employed out in weaving, to whom we pay in wages about 250l. weekly. I should say that altogether we cannot have less than 1,000 people employed, young and old. 7170. How long do you remember the river Aire? —For 34 or 35 years. 7171. In what condition was it when you first re- member it?—Much better than it is now. It is much fouler now than it was, RIVERS COMMISSION :--MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 225 7172. Do you use water for any purposes in the manufactories?—Yes, for scouring the cloth. 7173. Can you use the river water now for that purpose 2–No, not exactly. When I first knew the river Aire I could have drunk it, it was quite bright. 7174. As good as this in this bottle (pointing to the same) –Yes, I think so; it has got worse every year for these last 34 years. - 7175. That is, gradually, and if left alone it Will continue to get worse?—No doubt of it, as manufacto- ries and population increase. 7176. Do you know Bradford beck —Yes. 7177. Is that a source of nuisance to you ?–I should think that is perhaps the principal cause of the foulness of the river. 7178. What form of nuisance does that beck send down 2–There are all kinds of nuisances caused by the manufactories and dyeworks. Then there is the general nuisance of the whole town, such as water- closets. The worst time is when there has been a dry time, and then comes a strong shower of rain or a thunderstorm, the stream will come down then as black as possible. 7179. Stirring up the sediment from the bed of the river ?–Yes. If we have a lot of cloth we have to wait five or six hours before we dare scour a piece at all—before we dare pump water from the river. I have seen sometimes, when we have put a piece into the scouring machine, that it has come out almost black. 7180. It has come out in such a condition that you could not do anything with it 2–It had to be scoured over again. 7181. That is of course a serious loss to you in trade 2–Yes. 7182. Do you know what that would amount to in 12 months?–We take care not to have much loss if we can help it. What I have mentioned is mere accident, but it is a great inconvenience, because we sustain a loss in time. 7183. And interruption to the business –Yes; my trade is principally white cloth dyed for light colours, and it is very important to have pure water—clean, soft water. 7184. Do you get any water from the water com- pany?—At Bramley we do, from the Leeds Water Company. - 7185. Do you know what volume you get per week —I know I paid altogether rather more than 100l. last year. Bramley is in the borough, and we pay 6d. per 1,000 gallons. If I could have the town's water at Calverley and pay for it by meter, I should certainly take it. 7186. Why cannot you have it —Because the place is out of the borough. 7187. If you could get it at 6d. per 1,000 gallons you would use it?—Yes. 7188. If the river was pure I suppose that would not be necessary —No, I should only use the town water occasionally ; perhaps at a cost of 101. or 20ſ, a €8.1". y 7189. If the water was as bad as the Bradford beck, could you carry on your manufactures with it —No, I could not, except by getting another supply ; but I do not think it is likely to be so bad. 7190. Do you use engine power at your works at Calverley —Yes. 7191. What weight of coal do you use per year — I can scarcely say. We have sufficient water power when there is water, but the water power varies ac- cording to the seasons. We have had very little occa- sion to use steam this summer. We have not wanted it since July. It has been a peculiar season, very wet. 7 192. You make a certain amount of ashes I suppose 2–Yes. 7.193. What do you do with them 2–We never put them into the river. 7.194. Do any of your neighbours do so?—I think not. * - 7195. Have you never seen them thrown into the rivers or streams ?—I do not know that we have. 17159.-2, 7196. Are you at all troubled with floating carcases and drowned animals?—Yes, we have many of them. 71.97. Dead dogs 2–Yes. 7.198. Are they a nuisance 2–Yes, they are, in the river. We see them float over the dam stones. I should think that there are almost more dead dogs in the canal than in the river. They are very bad indeed. 71.99. Do you use much soap for scouring at either of your works?—Yes. 7.200. What weight per annum do you use?—I can scarcely tell you, but we use a great deal of soap. We pay perhaps 100l. a week for soap and oil. 7.201. (Professor Way.) Is there any attempt made to extract the grease afterwards?—Yes, I sell the waste liquor to a party and he extracts the oil and grease. 7202. Does he do that on your premises —Yes. 7203. Does he deal with the whole bulk of the washing water or only with the best portions?—As a rule I think he takes nearly the whole. 7204. Does he receive it in tanks 2–Yes. - 7205. You allow him a certain space upon your premises to carry on that work --Yes. 7206. He adds something to it I suppose, some acid 2–Yes, 7207. What is the name of the person —Mr. Wilkinson. 7208. Does he press that n aerial that he gets on your works or take it away ?—He takes the grease away when he has extracted it. 7209. You have no presses by which you can press out the oil –No. 7210. Where are his works?—I think they are in Bramley township. 7211. What is the nature of the liquid that runs away from the tanks –It is not very bad them. 7212. Not worse than it was when he began with it —It is a great deal better. 7213. Is a large quantity extracted in that way. What proportion of the 5,000l. that you spend for oil and soap is got back again —I cannot tell you. We do not pay in the year for soap so much as 5,000l. at this mill. 7214. (Chairman.) Do you know how much you get for your waste —Yes, 50l. a year. 7215. (Professor Way.) Are the tanks very large that he collects this liquid in 2–Not very large. 7216. As big as this room?—No. 7217. How often are they filled and emptied in a day?—That I cannot fell you ; he takes his own course. 7218. Supposing it was desirable that you should take that into your own hands, would there be any difficulty in selecting an intelligent man amongst your workmen to superintend it —I do not know I am Sull'e. - 7219. Is it possible that you might get more than 501. out of it if you did so?—Very likely. We used to let it all run to waste, and we thought that what we should get for letting it was so much saved, 50l. a year. 7220. If you were called upon to do so, you might be able to change the liquid for the better before it was discharged into the brook or into the river?—I cannot answer that question. 7221. It is not clean water –No, but I do not think it is objectionable after the grease has been extracted. It is astonishing what a difference the process makes. 7222. (Chairman.) Do you know how much a year is obtained throughout Yorkshire for soap waste — I do not. 7223. Would you be surprised to hear that 100,000/. a year is now being paid for soap waste?—No, I do not think that I should. - 7224. And that at least, according to intelligent calculation, there is another 100,000/. worth which might be utilized, as small mills do not utilize it, and some large ones likewise –Just so. 7225. Therefore out of that refuse alone Yorkshire might be 200,000l. a year better than it was formerly -I should not be at all surprised at it. In f I,EEDS. Mr. Ald. D. Yewdall. 8 Nov. 1866. ----- 226 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, LEEDS. Mr. Ald. D. Yewdall. 8 Nov. 1866. 7226. (Professor Way.) If the system of extracting the grease could be improved, I suppose that those figures would be a great deal below the truth –It looks very strange to get only the small amount that I get for the quantity of soap which must be in the water. 7227. If the profits now obtained by the grease collectors are moderately fair, must it not be that they do not extract by any means a fair per-centage of grease out of that water –It would appear so. 7228. Either their profits are enormously great, and the manufacturers receive much too little for the grease, or the grease is wasted and is lost in spite of the process –Yes. 7229. If a larger quantity by better dealing with these liquids could be saved from waste, would it not be a fair thing that a part of that increased profit, whether it came to the manufacturer or to the grease maker, should be devoted to the better purification of the waste water which is finally thrown in 2–I do not see but what it would. 7230. (Chairman.) Do you know what price par- ties get for the material so extracted —I do not. 7231. Do you know that some parties are paid upon the amount extracted, and not by a rental 2–I do not know that, 7232. (Professor Way.) Does all the soap and grease actually go away in the water. Do you dis- pose of any wool which has grease in it, short wool, or shoddy, or anything of the kind –Yes; that is a very important thing, and I should think that a great proportion of it is waste, it falls under the machine. 7233. What becomes of it 2–We sell it, we call it food. 7234. Is it food for the extraction of grease, or not ?—I believe that it is food for the extraction of grease, and that a part of it is worked up and made into a low sort of cloth. 7235. Do you know of any establishments for the extraction of the grease from that food —Yes. I should say that a very large amount of grease goes into that waste that falls under the machine. I should say that that is the greasiest part. 7236. Can you tell us how much of that goes away from your mill —I cannot ; it is a largish weight. 7237. Could it be ascertained 2–Yes. 7238. I suppose that if we could ascertain that, and could learn how much oil on the average it contained, we should have the means of calculating how much went in that way and how much in the other ?–Yes. 7239. It is, then, only fair to the grease makers to say that they have not the opportunity of getting out all the grease ?—That is quite right. I should say that the best part of the grease which they get is in the first scour. We scour the cloth twice. We scour it with grease, and then we what we call burl it, and then we mill it up into cloth and then scour it again. In the first scour we wet the pieces in urine and pigs' dung. The first scour must have the largest amount of olive oil in it, we grease the wool, there is scarcely anything but olive oil, and for the first scour the extractors are most particular. They will get a larger amount from the first scour than from the latter one. There is no soap in the first scour, but in the latter scour it is principally soap. There will be only the oil which comes from the soap, which will not be so valuable, nor will there be so much of it. 7240. Do they treat the two scours separately 2– No, they both go into the same tank, but they know by the colour one from the other. - 7241. I suppose that when the oil is used alone they would have no necessity to make it acid —I do not know. I should think that they have, but I really cannot tell you. The food is very heavy and very ea,SV. º Are you aware that they extract that oil from the food not only by pressure but with a substance called bi-sulphide of carbon, which is very stinking —I do not know. 7243. (Chairman.) Does the retention of the waste fluid cause any nuisance on your premises. I refer to the tanks –-I do not know that it does, 7244. Do your workpeople use open privies or water- closets —Open privies. --- º Do you cleanse those open privies yourselves? - I eS. - ------ 7246. What becomes of the refuse 2–I have a con- siderable portion of land, and I dress my own land with it. 7247. Do the contents of any of the waterclosets fall into the river ?–We have not many waterclosets. 7248. You have open privies 2–Yes. - 7249. Then you do not pollute the streams with that form of refuse 2–No. 7250. Do you use human ordure in the scouring or milling processes –We use urine. 7251. But not the solid refuse 2–No. 7252. Is it not used in some processes —Yes. I have known it used when pigs’ dung was very scarce, and there is no doubt that it has first-rate scouring properties, but it is very seldom used ; it is very objectionable to use it. 7.253. On account of the stench 2–Yes. 7254. (Professor Way.) Do you ever use salts as substitutes for pigs’ dung and for urine –Yes, we use a little in scouring wool. 7255. Do you know what the salts consist of 2– No. 7256. What do you give a ton for them —You can get them at various prices. We have tried salts fre- quently, but, as I heard an old gentleman once say, “They may try what they like, nothing can compare “with pigs’ dung and wash,” that is urine, “and mottled “soap and olive oil.” We have found that in many colours, such as scarlet and all light colours, we have never so bright a colour as by the use of those things. 7257. (Chairman.) The ordinary use of pigs’ dung, human urine, mottled soap, and olive oil, gives you the most certain result 2–Yes, the most certain colours, and it is very important to have soft and pure water ; hence, if the river Aire keeps getting worse, manufac- tories will want a larger supply of pure water every year for manufacturing purposes. 7258. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you carry on the whole process at each of the mills –We carry on the whole process at each of the mills; as I told you before we scour cloth twice. If the water is bad the first time that we scour a piece of cloth and we do not get a proper scour (we give it the name of a bottom scour, which is a thorough scour), the little grease which is left will perhaps take two or three pounds of soap extra to get the cloth up, and I do not think that it will ever be as bright, or of as good a colour, as if it got a thorough scour the first time. 7259. Something is fixed in the cloth 2–Yes. 7260. What is it which is fixed 2–The grease which has never been removed. I mention that to show that the river is getting continually worse, and that unless the river can be altered Leeds will require a larger supply of pure water every year. 7261. (Chairman.) Has any portion of the fine trade of Leeds been interfered with or driven away in consequence of the impure state of the water 2–I should think not. At the same time there is no doubt in the world that they can dye better colours in the west of England than we can. 7262. There is a place called Galashiels, is there not 2–Yes, in Scotland. 7263. Is it true that the manufacturers there have taken some of your fine manufactures from you ?–I am not aware of it. I think not on account of the Water. 7264. Then is it on account of the brains of the Scotchmen —I suppose so. I should say that their trade is principally what we call a fancy trade. 7265. I have been told that they can get in the market a price for their goods which you would in vain attempt to get for Yorkshire goods?—I have been in Scotland, and I believe that in Scotland they are very particular about cleansing the yarn and getting bright colours; there is no doubt of it. 7266. (Mr. Harrison.) Do they use as much shoddy?—I have not asked them that question. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 227 7267. Have you made any experiments as to the effect of using soft water as compared with other water in the quantity of soap which you have to use * —Yes. - 7268. Alderman Carter said that you would be able to give us some exact information upon the subject —That is what I have stated. Supposing that you have a superior water and a soft water, and can get a really good scour in the first instance, it will save you a good deal in soap. 7269. But you do not know exactly how much – I should not wonder if it would save me 50 lbs. weight of soap a day, but that is supposing that the scour under existing circumstances has not been good ; a scour is always liable to be bad with bad water. 7270. What quantity of wool do you manufacture daily or weekly at your two mills –We never send out less than what we call stones; I should say 100 stones a day at each mill, 16 lbs. to the stone. 7271. That will be 3,200 lbs. ?–Yes; perhaps there will be 3,500 lbs. weight in a day at the two mills. 7272. What quantity of water do you require to cleanse that wool and the cloth afterwards 2—I really cannot say. 7273. I understand that you have no river to go to ? —No. 7274. You must either pump water or you must get it from the waterworks?—We have wells and pumps, but besides that we pay more than 100l. a year to the waterworks. 7275. Cannot you give us the quantity of water which you have to use in all your processes —I can- not, it is very large. For instance, we have very large cisterns, we pump the water from the river and we scour the wool in a hot liquor, and then put it into one of these large cisterns with a false bottom ; we work the wool about in the water. 7276. By the force of the water itself?–Yes; that requires a very large amount of water. 7277. And you use it without stint –Yes, at Calverley. At Bramley we should be at a tremendous cost if we had to get that water from Leeds. At Bramley, because we are short of water, we have only through rollers. 7278. Do you find any difference in the degree to which you can cleanse the wool in those two pro- cesses —I would rather cleanse it by the first process if we could get plenty of water. 7279. Can you get wool thoroughly clean by rollers? —Pretty fairly so, but I would rather have the other process. 7280. Do you make very fine cloth 2–Not particu- larly fine; with rollers there might be some particles of sediment left, but I do not think that that is any- thing really objectionable. 7281. If the Aire is going to be so polluted that you must go to the water company to purchase, you would very soon use as little water as you possibly could —You are quite right. 7282. And again when the water is polluted the less quantity which you have to deal with in order to purify it the better?—The river Aire has been very good this summer. 7283. In consequence of the flood?–In consequence of the flood; it is worst in summer. With a very dry summer, such as we have had the last year or two, it has scarcely ever been clean, and I have seen it effer- vesce at the dam stores as if malt was working, and we could scarcely get any clean water for some weeks. We tried to remedy it by putting in a pound, but nothing would remedy it except a flood. 7284. (Professor Way.) When you say that the river has been very good this year, I suppose that you are speaking of the river as compared with its general state 2–Yes. 7285. But it is not very good water 2–It is pretty fair. When we have continual rain we have a great quantity of rain water ; rain water as you are aware is soft, and it comes further up; and such a quantity mixes with the Bradford beck and the other beck's that we scarcely see the pollution. 7286. I thought that that was the time when these flushes brought down impurities from Bradford and other places —Yes, that refers to the first flush ; we cannot scour till the first flush has gone. 7287. I suppose that if the sources of pollution were to cease the river would soon get tolerably clear by these flushes; the natural causes would flush out the river, would they not ?–Yes, I have no doubt that they would. 7288. (Mr. Harrison.) When you are cleaning your wool at Bramley with the rollers, what quantity of water do you put in to a certain weight of wool? - I cannot tell you that ; we use that water not for wool scouring but for milling. We take a little sometimes, but as little as we can. - 7289. Up at Bramley you are rather stinted of yº. you have either to pump it or to buy it?— es. 7290. Down at the river you get as like 2–Yes. - 7291. In the one case you use it economically, and in the other case you use it wastefully 2–Yes. 7292. If you could give us the quantity of water which you use at those two places it would be useful information; would it entail much trouble to get it * -I scarcely know, I could make inquiries. 7293. Do you send much polluted water away from your mills —Not much after the extract ; I do not think that it is very bad then. 7294. Have you ever tried putting it on the land 2 —It runs down into the river, we cannot irrigate. 7295. Cannot you do so at Bramley —I have no land at Bramley; but if we could do so I have no doubt that it would be beneficial. - 7296. (Chairman.) Have you any further observa- tions to offer P-The great source of the pollution of the river, so far as we are concerned, is Bradford beck; it is a great injury to Leeds, and if Bradford increases in the next 30 years as it has increased in the last 30 years, the river Aire in the summer in a dry time will be something like a main sewer what is the remedy I cannot tell you. 7297. (Mr. Harrison.) You consider that Leeds itself is seriously and injuriously affected by pollutions coming from the upper parts of the river *—Yes. For instance, there is a beck which runs down by us; there is not much water, and I have seen that beck almost as bad as Bradford beck. There is no doubt that there are small villages which pollute the small tributaries of the river. 7298. How are the small villages off for water . I refer to villages which are on the borders of the Aire *-Bradford, in their last Waterworks Act, got power to embrace, a large area with many villages and that no doubt has been a capital thing. * --> 7299. But those villages which are beyond those limits come second-best off?—Yes; the pipes of the Bradford Waterworks do not go to the other side of the river. much as you The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM HAMMOND BARTHolomew (Leeds) examined, 7300. (Chairman.) You are engineer to the trustees for the undertakers of the Aire and Calder Navigation ?—I am. The plan which I now put in shows the extent of our jurisdiction. * - 7301. For how many years have you been engineer to that body?—I have been 14 years connected with them as engineer. 7802. Do you remember at what date the naviga- tion works commenced ; they are, I see, very old * Yes, the commencement of them was in 1698; the old navigation is entirely done away with, and the new one has been twice improved. 7803. Have the Aire and Calder trustees a beneficial interest ?—They have, LEEDS. Mr. Ald. D. Yewdall. - 8 Nov. 1866. - Mr. W. H. Bartholomew, F f 2 228 Rivers COMMISSION:–MINUTEs or Evid ENCE. I, EEDS. Mr. W. H. Bartholomew. 8 Nov. 1866. 7304. Then it is a company ?—Yes. 7305. The proprietors have subscribed their capital and receive dividends —They do. 7306. Is the traffic as great now as it was at any former period?—It is greater in tonnage. 7307. The railways have not driven the tonnage from the navigation ?—No, except in some articles of a higher class. 7308. Then your navigation would differ in a very material respect from the Thames, where the carriage of goods has been almost annihilated 2–Yes; we are increasing in tonnage yearly. 7309. What class of goods do you usually carry on your navigation ?–Coal and corn are the staple articles; we also carry stone. 7310. Ironstone –Very little ironstone. 7311. Building stone 2–Yes, flags and building stone; we carry a large quantity of manure, lime- stone, and lime and salt. 7312. Do you carry pottery —Pottery ware, and also a considerable amount of high-class goods, bales, and merchandise traffic, which has specially been a traffic of late years. 7313. Is that in consequence of your giving by your branches and arms greater facilities to ware- houses than are afforded by railway arrangements — Partly so, and partially from the ready means of shipment at the port from the vessel to the steamer ; the vessel goes alongside the steamer at any point where it may be, whereas the railway trucks may not do so so conveniently. 7314. What length of time does it take to get goods by your boats from the higher parts of the navigation down to the port of shipment?—We commence at Leeds, and the distance from Leeds to Goole is 36 miles, and to Hull it is 25 miles additional. We ship at Goole in about nine to ten hours after leaving Leeds, and in three hours after that, namely, in 13 hours, we ship at Hull. 73.15. Then goods put on board to-day at Leeds may be on board ship to-morrow —I have known cases where they have left at 8 o'clock in the evening. and have been on board at Hull at 11 on the following morning. We always run during the night. 73.16. That would be one of the secrets of your continued success against railway competition ?—No doubt. We frequently get goods down at the port at the same time as the railway does. 73.17. Railways can give no greater facilities as regards time than you can P-Certainly not between those parts. 73.18. What amount of dredging power do you regularly employ now upon your navigation ; what number of dredges have you?—We have three at present engaged; two are constantly working and one partially, and we are constructing a fourth. 7319. What amount of dredging power did you use when you first came on the navigation; have you increased it during your engineership —Yes. I have known the navigation for some years. My father preceded me. During that time we had a small 10-horse dredger, that is going back 25 years ago, subsequently to that time it was replaced by one of about 30-horse power ; it did the work for about 15 or 20 years, and we have now added another of about 25-horse power ; and we are again about to make a duplicate for that. 7320. Then you will have nearly 100-horse power P —We shall. 7321. But formerly when your father was engineer he only had 10-horse power P-Yes. I should state that under our Act of 1820 we took powers to make the navigation a seven feet navigation, whereas before that it was only five feet. - 7322. Then a considerable amount of dredging has been for the purpose of creating and maintaining an extra depth —Yes; but the extra depth has been completed for the last 20 years, so that you may take the present dredging power as solely what is required to maintain it. 7323, Do you know the Clyde –I do, 7324. I believe that a great addition to the depth of the Clyde up to Glasgow has been obtained by dredging 2–I believe almost solely. 7325. And a great annual expenditure is required to maintain that depth?—Yes. 7326. Are your rivers and canals more polluted now than they were 20 years ago?—Very much so. 7327. From increase of manufactures upon the banks —Undoubtedly. 7328. Under your Acts have you power to restrict fouling or polluting of the rivers ?—No ; that is con- fined to our own navigation. 7329. You have power as conservators to prevent the putting in of solids?—Yes, rubbish, coal dust, ashes, or anything of that description. 7330. Do you ever exercise that power 2–We have found very great difficulty in doing so. I do not think that much solid refuse is thrown in on our own line proper; the great difficulty which we have is in dealing with what comes to us through the different tributaries. 7331. Those are beyond your jurisdiction ?—Yes. 7332. In your dredging operations do you find that you have to remove ashes and slag which are passed in from different works –Yes, ashes in particular, and I may say that that undoubtedly is on the increase. 7333. Do you find that ashes are an injurious ob- struction, that they clog with the sand and choke up the channel 2 – They do. Wherever the river happens to be wide, we always find ashes deposit at every flood, and we have more or less to remove them. I may mention in connexion with the cuts that we find that there is a large increase of dredging at the entrances to the different canals. Many of them are on a level with the summit of each pool, and during the lesser floods the flood waters get into the cut, and the matter in suspension precipitates at the head of the cut ; we find this deposit to be on the increase. You may say that the increase has been 20 per cent, during the last five years, and that is going on, showing that the amount of sewage matter and other lighter refuse is largely on the In Cl’ease. 7334. Are you much troubled by dead carcases floating into the canals and rivers in the portions which you navigate 2–We have been. I do not think so much so in the last two or three years as previously. I think that steps have probably been taken by the authorities to avoid that. 7335. Have your dredgers any instructions from you to remove floating carcases when they see them P —Occasionally. 7336. No stringent regulations are, I suppose, im- posed upon them to cleanse or scavenge the river ?– No. 7337. Are there no regulations upon the canals for removing floating carcases?—We ourselves do it, but there is no other authority; we always remove them and bury them. 7338. What is the length of your navigable canal? —I can give you the rivers and perhaps the canals; the river Aire from Leeds Bridge, where our jurisdic- tion commences, to Weeland, where it ends, is 40 miles and 2 furlongs. The Calder from Sowerby Bridge, the point to which we have now jurisdiction under a lease which we hold of the Calder and Hebble, to its junction with the Aire at Castleford, is 37 miles and 1 furlong, so that we have a total length of 774 miles. We have also upwards of 80 miles of canal. 7339. What is your draught?—From Goole to Leeds, and from the former place to 6 miles above Wakefield, we have 7 feet 6 inches, that is the admissible through draught. Above this latter point to Sowerby it is 5 feet, and from Wakefield to Barnsley it is 6 feet. 7340. What is the heaviest tonnage which you can deal with ?—We have improved the navigation by en- larging our locks between Goole and Castleford ; that admits vessels of large size. There are now vessels carrying 160 tons; but above the point of those improvements 100 tons is the limit. Above Wakefield 60 tons is the limit, RIVERS COMMISSION: —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 229 7341. (Mr. Harrison.) You have a branch to Selby P —Yes, for the York traffic, that is six feet. 7342. (Chairman.) What is your rate of tonnage for carriage of coal?—It varies from a halfpenny to a farthing per ton per mile, according to the character of the coal and the district. 7343. Do you allow any carriers to carry upon your canals, or are you yourselves exclusively the carriers? —We encourage other carriers as much as we can. Traffic which cannot be well carried in competition with the railways by individuals we carry ourselves. 7344. Do you know the Bridgewater Trust 2—I do. 7345. Is your traffic managed in a somewhat similar manner to the management by that trust, namely, that you encourage independent carriers, and are carriers upon your own account 2–Precisely so. 7346. You have your own boats and your own warehouses and your own men —Yes. 7347. And there are independent carriers who pay you by tonnage or rental —Yes. 7348. Do you know what it is costing you per annum for dredging 2–Yes; leaving out the capital account, the Aire has cost us from 800l. to 500l. a year. You may say an average of 650l. a year. 7349. What do you do with the material which is dredged out 2—With the material dredged out, the solid matter, the gravel, and so on, we fill up sun- dry diversions of the river which we have made. With regard to the mud out of the canals, we dispose of it, if we can, to farmers, but this has been done to a very limited extent, or we raise land with it. 7350. Do you find a sale for the mud —It is very limited indeed; it is not found to be very beneficial to land unless it is very peculiarly treated, and not many of the farmers are aware of it; it requires some expe- rience to deal with it. 7351. I suppose that it wants to be put through a process of rotting if possible, so as to kill the weeds which it contains –Partially so, and the surface also must be well washed with rain and exposed, so as to remove or neutralize the chemical ingredients which it contains ; and then it is very productive. 7352. Have you kept any rain gaugings at any points upon your navigation —Only at one point, namely Goole. 7353. Have you a table of the rain gaugings for any length of time —Yes, I have it for about six years. 7354. Have you made an abstract of it?—I do not happen to have it with me, but I can furnish it. 7355. I see that you have some written papers, what are they —Those are dredging statistics which I hand in showing the amount and cost of dredging in each pool and each river. (See papers printed at the foot of the evidence of the witness.) 7356. (Mr. Harrison.) For a series of years —For the years 1840, 1850, and 1855, and then consecutively from 1856 to 1865. Singularly enough in the Calder there is not an increase, but in the Aire there is a very large increase. I ought to explain that in the Calder we have trained the rivers, narrowed them, and given them a uniform section, with a view to diminish the amount of deposits, and that has been so beneficial as to reduce the deposits of ashes in the Calder. 7357. Have you a large amount of dredging near the junction of the Aire with the Calder 2–It gives us great trouble. 7358. (Chairman.) Are there any cloth manufac- tories situated upon the banks of your navigable canals —I do not know a single instance on the canals now ; they are chiefly on the banks of the river. 7359. Do you sell water from your canals at any point for manufacturing purposes —We do. 7360. Have you a fixed form of rent, is it by the 1,000 gallons or by the horse power P-It is by the nominal horse power. 7361. Do you sell it for cleansing or washing or dyeing 2—We limit it to steam-engine purposes, al- though I believe that in some few instances it is applied to dye purposes. 7862. What is your charge for steam purposes — 15s. per horse power per annum. 7363. I suppose they take it by a pipe, or pump under your control?—Yes, and they return it to the same pool from which it was taken. 7364. The water after being used has to be thrown back 7–Yes, into the same level. 7365. Do they use it both for generating steam and for condensing —Yes. 7366. Then the heated water comes back into the canal P-Yes. - 7367. Do you find any cause of nuisance from that heated water coming in 2–Possibly during the hot weather it has some tendency to stir up the gases. 7368. Do any villages, or towns, or manufactories, or separate houses, drain closet matter into any portions of the canals?—Not into the canals proper. 7369. Did the undertakers at any time receive a rental for fishing in the streams and canals under their jurisdiction ? — No ; generally speaking the º proprietors secured the rights of fishing in the Callal. 7370. They were secured to the landowners through whose estates the canals passed ?–Yes. 7311. Is there any fishing now in any portion of the canal property P-It is almost extinct ; there are some few fish in the lower part of the canal near Goole, but in all the upper portions the water is so contaminated that there are none. Salmon frequently used to come over the Haddlesey dam, and I believe did so up to the last year, and there was a fishery at the foot of the dam, but that has now ceased altogether. 7372. Have you had the Salmon Fishery Commis- sioners here 2–I believe not. 7373. You yourself have not given evidence before them 2–No. I believe that the Aire is included in a commission which is going forward. 7374. Do you know Leeds pretty well ?—I do. 7375. Had you any application made to you before the outlet sewer of Leeds was passed into the Aire, down below the town ; were you at all consulted about that construction ?—It was prior to my joining the navigation. 7376. Do you think that you would have power to interfere in any way or to impose conditions upon towns wishing to sewer direct into the navigable parts of the river ?—We should certainly object to that. 7377. Would you have power to object effectually * —We should oppose them in Parliament if they had a bill to make a special line of conduit. 7378. You would wish to place restrictions upon them, that they should not pollute the river, or bring down solids 2—Yes. 7379. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you occasion to dredge the river Aire below the outlet of the Leeds sewer?— Before it comes into a navigable part of the river the sewage has to run from the outlet some four or six miles; then, no doubt, every flood removes it to the points which we dredge afterwards. 7380. I see that by your return the annual expense of dredging varies very materially in different years? —Yes. 7381. In a very flooded year, for instance, this year, you might not dredge at all, or to a very limited extent 2–The fewer floods the less dredging we have ; the more floods the more dredging they bring us. 7382. Then you are dredging during the continu- ance of a flood, or subsequently to it?—We have not sufficient dredging power, and therefore we dredge the whole time. 7383. Your dredger told us that when the water gets above a certain height, about nine feet, he cannot dredge any longer ?—He cannot dredge then in the river; six feet in the river would stop him. We have one dredger which cannot dredge above 12 feet ; we have another dredger which can dredge 18 feet, which can dredge at any time. 7384. In two fine consecutive years, like 1864 and 1865, you would probably have a small amount of expenditure in dredging. In 1865 I see that you have only an expenditure of 465l.?—Yes, that is taking that particular year; that is owing to another exceptional LEEDS. Mr. W. H. Bartholomew, 8 Nov. 1866. -- F f 3 230 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. Mr. W. H. Bartholomew. 8 Nov. 1866. - cause. In that year we had considerable dredging at Goole, which took our dredgers away from the river, and not having sufficient dredging power we got into arrears. 7385. The quantity which you have to dredge depends upon the floods ; they form banks, and you have to remove them?—Yes; it mainly depends upon our ability to remove them on account of our inefficient staff. - 7386. Under your Acts there are Commissioners of the Aire and Calder appointed 2–We have Commis- sioners under our powers. 7387. Is it not their duty to look after the under- takers of the Aire and Calder Navigation, in order to see that they do their duty, and to intervene in making any arrangements for purchase or entry -That is under certain Acts; the Commissioners have not power under the whole of the Acts. 7388. Do the Commissioners exist at present *- They are an extinct body at present. 7389. From what cause is that, is it because they have not been called into operation –They have not been called into operation, I think, since 1776. I am corrected, I understand that in 1815 they were called into operation. 7390. They are a body who can be found if they are wanted, even to the present day –Yes. 7391. But they are not called into active operation unless they are applied to ?–No. 7392. Have they simply to arrange matters between the undertakers and others ?—They have to adjust damages. 7393. Can you give us the fall at the different locks in summer time, and the fall of the river itself in different parts?—Yes. I will furnish a statement of them to the Commissioners. 7394. Have you at any time taken gaugings of the volume of water passing down the Aire and Calder * —Not specially so, but in a great measure I have the means of ascertaining it. I have recorded the heights of each flood; in fact the varying heights of the water daily in each pool; that has now ex- tended over some four or five years; during that time I can give you the state of the river and the length of the weir board, so that the information can be very approximately got, except in extreme floods, when the river overflows its banks, and thus outflanks the weirs. - 7395. Can you give us the length of the weir at the junction of the Aire and Calder, and the daily height of the pond above that weir for four years?— Yes. - 7396. Are there any disturbing circumstances which would interfere with the calculation in the ordinary way ?–Not materially, except in the extreme cases mentioned. 7397. Do those weirs to which you would refer us fall out of action in flood time?—They do partially ; that is to say, they backwater up a little; in other words, the upper and lower pools in high floods become nearly level. 7398. Will it make much difference in the maximum quantity ?–Yes. There is also another consideration —we have falling deals in that particular dam which are struck in flood time, and that would somewhat militate against an absolutely correct return." 7399. Have you the height above and below the weir 2–Not at that particular point, but I have the height of that particular pool; that, however, is at a distance of five miles. 7400. If you can give us an actual section of the river and the fall of the water in the maximum floods it will enable us to correct the maximum P-I think that I can give you the information pretty closely. 7401. (Chairman.) What is the influence of heavy floods upon your navigation 2–They rarely do us any damage. They obstruct the traffic, that is the main objection to them. 7402. Have you noticed whether the floods are as heavy now as they were when you first knew the river?—I should say decidedly not, cº- - º ". 7403. To what would you attribute that circum- stance –Partially to collecting reservoirs. Later in the season a few hours rain brings a flood down. 7404. (Mr. Harrison.) After the earth is saturated 2 —Yes, whereas in summer time it takes a great deal of rain to bring a flood down. 7405. (Chairman.) Do you think that land floods are at all influenced by the drainage operations –Yes, in the Aire floods do not remain so long as they did. The soil does not act as a sponge as it used to do, but the water is discharged almost at once into the river and we have it much more rapidly. 7406. (Mr. Harrison.) Is any such effect attribu- table to the improvements which have been made above Keighley —No, I do not see that there has been any such effect, so far as we can discern. 7407. Have you calculated from any data which you have the maximum and minimum volume of water passing down the Aire and the Calder –I have not, but I will give you that information. 7408. Have you used steam power upon your canals and rivers for towing?—Yes, extensively. 7409. Do you find it successful ?–Yes, extremely SO. 7410. Does it injuriously affect your banks 2–No. Experience has shown us the speeds at which we should run to avoid that, and we limit ourselves to those speeds. 7411. What is your speed?—The speed is 4 miles upon the canals. 7412. And upon the river what is it 2—Where the sectional area is larger we run at a speed of six miles. It entirely depends upon the sectional area of the Water. 7413. What do you find to be the cost of towing goods by steam as compared with horses?—In our carrying traffic, taking four years, the average is 2}d. per boat per mile. Each boat may take about 30 tons. - 74.14. What would it be if you used horse power? —Our horse power by contractors is 7%d against 24d. 7415. Then do you think that the introduction of steam power in the place of horse power, on the Thames, for instance, and other rivers, would seriously affect the question of the competition of railways?— Certainly. We could not at all compete with the railways with horse power. 7416. And although railways are abundant in the neighbourhood you can successfully compete with them with the assistance of steam power 2–Yes. No navigation in the kingdom has so many railways opposing it or running in competition with it as ours has. We have been put to our resources, and we have endeavoured to make the best use of them. 7417. (Chairman.) Do you use paddles or screws? —Screws entirely. 7418. In what part of the boat is the screw fixed P —For the goods traffic, the traffic which we conduct ourselves, we have a specially arranged boat with the machinery aft, and the boat carries cargo forward. The steam power occupies the after cabin, and that really is the secret of the success of so much reducing the cost, namely, combining the carriage of cargo with towing. 7419. Have you seen any account of propulsion by the ejection of water —Yes. 7420. Do you think that that might be applicable to canal traffic 2–It is difficult to say. It is in its infancy. I do not think that it is applied in the best Imannel 11OW. 7421. What is the actual sectional dimension of your canals?–Our top width is from 60 to 66 feet, and there are batters of two to one, and a bottom width of 20 feet. 7422. Are there road bridges spanning your canal? —Our bridges were originally contracted to the width of our locks. In our improvements we have taken out those bridgeways and improved them in all CaSeS. 7423. Have you not to slacken your speed to four miles an hour at the bridgeways?–Yes, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 231 7424. You are obliged to have larger bridgeways or to ease the speed —Yes. - 7425. Have you ever run swift boats on your navi- gation similar to those which are run on the Forth and Clyde and the Bridgewater canal; I mean swift boats by horses running at nine miles an hour 2–Yes, but they did not long remain. 7426. They did not pay ?–No, the passenger traffic was not such as to make them pay. - 7427. You have of course seen them in motion ?- Yes. 7428. Have you ridden upon them 2–Yes. There is an interesting matter in connexion with towage which we are doing. I have spoken of our tugs in connexion with the carrying trade, but we have other tugs of much larger power for the public. We tow for the public in a great measure. You may take the cost as one-tenth of a penny upwards and one-twelfth of a penny downwards. * - 7429. And that is a cost which pays you interest for your outlay and working expenses ?—Yes. We have now tugs upon our rivers up to 150 horse power. 7430. Have you tried the double screws?—We use an application of my own, viz; two screws on one shaft some distance apart ; the after screw having the larger pitch, so as to absorb the slip of the first one. 7431. Have you tried the double screws?–Yes, I have seen them a good deal and experimented with them, but they are not so efficient as one screw of large diameter where you have an adequate depth of water. We have a considerable draught of water. 7432. How long have you towed by steam power upon your navigation; do you remember what was the earliest date of your doing so?—You may go back nearly 30 years; it was by paddle tugs; it used to cost us 10%d, a mile by those tugs. - 7433. Did you ever see the small steamer which was upon the old river at Manchester, worked by a screw 2–No. 7434. The locks are very short there ; of what length are their locks —The general length is about 72 feet. We are improving our locks to 206 feet. 7.435. You would find it an advantage to tow with longer boats, and therefore to have longer locks?- Yes, partially so. Our object in lengthening the lºcks was twofold, to admit more than one boat at a time, and also to facilitate large tonnage, seagoing steamers, and so forth. 7436. Are your gates of wood or iron –They are of wood on the navigation, and they are of iron at the dock gates at Goole. - - 7437. (Mr. Harrison.) What time does it take you to pass boats through the locks?–Through our ori- ginal lock you can do it in three minutes with care, but the average time is five miuutes. - 7488. (Chairman.) What volume of water would it consume?—About 9,000 cubic feet. 7439. Have you any side ponds at any of your locks upon the canals?—We have not. - 7440. You have never been driven to that in order to maintain your water?--No. Through the new locks we pass the vessels and empty these large locks in quite as little time as we do the lesser ones. 7441. Do you use Armstrong's hydraulic apparatus at any of your docks or warehouses?—We do. 7442. Do you find it of advantage?–Very great. We open now in three minutes, whereas formerly it took us nearly fifteen minutes. 7443. And it is merely by a man turning a small handle 2–Yes. 7444. At what pressure do you use your water – We started with 700 pounds, but we have now got up to 850 pounds, in consequence of a very large new lift which we have put up. 7445. There would be from 1,500 to 1,800 feet of head?—Yes. We have introduced a new mode of dealing with coals, similar in point of principle to that which is used by the railway companies; compartments containing from 30 to 35 tons of coals, seven of which form a train, are conveyed to the port of Goole, at which place they are hoisted up to the requisite eleva- tion and tilted into the ship. 7446. The hydraulic machinery affords you great facilities for carrying on your business 2–Yes. 7447. It transmits power much better than any other mode —Yes, at the distant points. 7448. You get your pressure by what is called an accumulator –Yes. 7449. (Mr. Harrison.) In several places you have cuts cutting off long bends of the river ?–Yes. 7450. Have you control over the river which you leave out in that case ?–We have, 7451. Do you do anything towards maintaining the depth or removing any shoals which occur in those parts?—We limit our dredging to places over which our traffic goes. 7452. Do you know any parts where the river has silted up to any extent in those bends 2—No, I think not. 7453. It was mentioned that about Dewsbury the bed was raised, and that in consequence the flooding of the adjoining lands was greater than it used to be, has any such thing taken place here?—It is necessary to receive those assertions with great caution. As this is a coal basin, whilst miners are constantly getting the coal beneath, the surface will subside three or four feet. 7454. So that flooding may be caused not by the river bed being raised, but by subsidence of the land * —Yes, in many cases. 7455. Have you ever found your canal or river dip down in that way ?—About Barnsley we have. They cannot work the coal to the injury of the navigation. 7456. You have powers of inspection of the mine? —In all cases. 7457. Have you a complete survey of the works? —In the places about Barnsley where they have power to get the coal, unless we elect to purchase. I keep the plans posted up to enable us to raise the banks, and to provide for the settlement. 7458. (Chairman.) Have you had the canal let down near Barnsley by coal workings underneath?— Yes. 7459. Have you had any breakage of the banks from that cause –We have had escapes of water, but have not had any banks carried away. One place has been very troublesome. The bottom of the canal is rock, and was excavated rather shallow to begin with ; it is covered with a puddle lining, and fissures in the rock keep opening and letting the puddle through them, as the removal of the coal proceeds,and we have con- stantly escapes into the valley below. 7460. Have you had any actions threatened for letting the water into the land below 2–No. 7461. To what extent at any particular point have your canals gone down —The seam of coal which is worked there is nine feet, and we have had a maximum subsidence of six feet. 7462. And then you simply raise the banks of the canal?–Yes; we fill up the bottom of the canal with puddle and raise the bank. There is a contrivance which we have introduced into our navigation in the way of sluices, which as a matter of information might be useful; it is a sort of self-balancing sluice, so that no power is required either way. It is a simple self- balancing sluice on the Dutch plan improved. 7463. A sort of throttle valve 2–Yes. If the cul- verts are made in a specified form it will both open itself and close itself by just giving a start. We have them up to 63 feet area. 7464. Did you ever go down to Birkenhead to see the dredging operation out of the great float there 2– Yes. 7465. Do you know that they all failed 2–Yeº. 7466. The admission of water in a large body through sluices is not to be trifled with ?—Certainly not, especially in the manner in which they employed it without a floor of any sort. 7467. It was an entire failure ?–Yes, it must necessarily have been. - IEEDS. Mr. W. H. Partholomew. The witness withdrew, 8 Nov. 1866. F f 4 PAPERs put in by W. H. BARTHOLOMEw, Esq., C.E., Engineer to the AIRE AND CALDER NAVIGATION (referred to supra, Question 7355), AIRE and CALDER NAVIGATION.—CoMPARATIVE STATEMENT of DREDGING, 1845 to 1865. RIVER AIRE, New Knostrop Knostrop Hunslet Leeds Amount. Date. Leeds. |Fly Boat Leeds Methley Castleford Castleford Castleford | Total. Pond. Basin. Cut. Basin. Pond. Cut. Pond. Canal. Pond. Junction. Cut. Pond. - Dredging. Boating. Hauling. Total. - - - C. Yds. C. Yas. C. Yds. C. Yds. C. Yds. C. Yds. C. Yds. C. Yds. C. Yds. C. Yds. º C. Yds. C. Yds. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d |Beal rom 1845 10s - 720 - 216 - 1,728 1,224 432 - 756 - 5, 184 64 14 3 135 0 11 27 0 0 226 15 2 1850 1,440 – 72 || – 28S – 1,116 – 2,542 - 180 - 5,638 46 14 1 184 18 11 29 7 3 261 0 3 1855 -- — – — - – – - — 350 180 540 1,070 7 12 0 19 2 6 5 11 5 32 5 11 1856 | 1,092 - 576 || – 5,102 - 972 2,664 324 2,880 - - 14,210 || 118 3 0 357 2 5 74 0 2 549 5 7 1857 . . Tº Tº T – Tis as --- 1,260 1,368 2 2,497 5,197 51 7 6 133 8 2 27 1 4 211 17 0 1858 5,676 1,197 1,197 ºr 3,711 1,116 1,368 4,201 36 900 5,220 - 24,532 147 2 3 483 13 0 127 5 5 758 10 S 1859 2,232 612 576 288 4,212 - 756 504 || 1,512 4,068 - - 14,760 | 104 11 0 276 19 2 76 17 6 458 7 8 1860 - - - 144 252 — 1,656 3,780 2,844 S64 72 9,612 75 7 9 156 19 10 - 50 1 3 282 S 10 1861 1,224 – 1,668 - 2,268 - 1,404 2,500 5,508 - 360 108 15,040 116 14 4 331 13 7 78 6 8 526 1 4 7 1862 18ſ) - 36 — 2,484 396 1,044 – 1,296 - 6,768 216 12,420 82 19 6 219 15 8 64 13 9 367 8 11 1863 3,804 540 1,548 - 4,212 216 864 3,060 828 4,560 pº. d 622 22,840 141 16 0 494) 11 6 11S 19 2 751 6 8 eal tº On Ci. 1864 4,548 * 1,0so 1992 5,328 1,548 1932 ill; 762 2,196 1,248 1,374 22,140 175 14 0 509 2 3 I 15 6 3 800 2 11 1865 1,590 – – - 72 – 288 2,526 3,552 1,023 2,274 735 12,060 16 9 0 277 5 10 62 16 3 456 11 Five years average - - - - fromiss6 1,920 344 470 58 2,634 273 619 1,805 1,382 2,412 1,231 514 13,662 to 1860 Five years average - co - -- - i. 2,269 223 866 266 2,873 432 92, 1st 2.289 1,556 2,647 611 16,900 to 1865 J ... §º Total Aire and Calder averages. Total yds. - Cost per Cube Yard of River Aire. "Nº. er Average of four years 1855 to 1858 - 25,034 ~~~~ ** -> 1858 to 1861 - 29,214 Dredging. Boating. Hauling. Total. 1845 24,840 ** * > 1861 to 1865 - || 29,691 - -** 1850 25,228 ivor. A d. d. d. d. 1855 20,335 River Aire. 1845 2.99 6 - 25 1 - 25 10 : 49 1856 22,526 Average of five years 1856 to 1860 - 13,662 1850 1 - 9S 7.87 I • 25 11 - 10 is; 13.3% xx ,, 1861 to 1865 - | 16,900 1855 1 - 70 4 - 29 1 - 25 7 - 24 1858 40,136 - 1856 1 - 99 6 - 03 1 - 25 9-27 1859 25,23 River Calder. 1857 2 - 37 6 - 16 I 25 9-78 lsº 21.366 Average of five years 1856 to 1865 336 1858 1 * 40 4 - 61 1 - 25 7 - 26 1861 29,519 ** -> 1861 to 1865 - 5,174 1859 I - 70 4' 50 . . I 25 7 * 45 1862 22,752 1860 1 : SS 3-91 1 - 25 7 : 04 1863 42,244 Goole Canal. 1861 1 - 86 5 - 29 1 - 25 8 - 40 1864 30,993 1862 1 - 60 4 - 24 1 - 25 7-09 1865 22,776 Average of five years 1856 to 1860 — 5,332 1863 1 - 49 5 - 15 I 25 7-89 ** ** 1861 to 1865 - 7,582 1864 1 - 90 5-51 1 - 25 8 : 66 Note.—Raking and spooning not included in the above. 1865 2 - 31 5 : 51 I • 25 9-07 (Signed) W. H. BARTHoLoMEw. § § CoMPARATIVE STATEMENT of DREDGING on the AIRE and CALDER NAVIGATION , 1845 to 1865. RIVER CALDER. Foundry River at Fairieshill Amount. Date. Foundry i. Calder Bottom Stanley | Fairieshill New Pottery Methley Total. Shoal. . Cut. Boat. Basin. Basin. River. River. Pond. Dredging. Boating. Hauling. Total. C. Yds. C. Yds. C. Yūs. C. Yds. C. Yds. C. Yds. C. Yds. C. Yols. C. Yds. C. Yds. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. 4,032 for improve- ment under Act of 1828. 1845 6,574 - 2,844 2,210 - - 3,996 - - 15,624 164 11 5 577 19 0 65 2 0 807 12 5 1850 5,076 - 1,836 - 1,152 - - - - 8,064 59 17 11 267 5 2 33 12 0 360 15 1. 1855 1,296 1,908 2,700 216 360 - - - 2,232 8,712 80 13 10 207 2 4 36 6. 0 324, 2 2 1856 1,296 1,944 2,376 - 1,152 - - - 1,548 S,316 76 18 0 166 3 1 34 13 0 277 14 1 1857 3.96 612 - - - 324 - 1,800 828 3,960 19 9 0 43 8 5 16 10 0 79 7 5 1858 3,276 648 - - - - - - - 3,924 29 O 3 71 13 6 16 7 0 117 0 9 1859 1,368 3,528 1,296 756 972 - 684 - 1,872 10,476 76 17 3 203 9 10 43 13 0 324 () 1 1860 540 2,664 180 252 540 324 504 - - 5,004 57 11 II 117 12 I 20 17 0 196 1 0 1861 - - - - - - - 2,340 3,816 6,156 24 5 3 84 5 2 25 13 0 134 3 5 1862 1,224 2,520 - - - - 180 252 - 360 4,536 37 10 3 87 0 8 18 18 0 143 8 11 1863 - - - - - 612 - 1,926 1,248 3,786 22 13 6 59 9 5 15 15 6 97 18 5 1864 - 1,980 426 - 792 210 - - - 3,408 28 16 6 60 17 0 14 4 0 103 17 6 1865 1,440 864 1,626 - 1,548 - - 2,508 - 7,986 72 5 0 155 15 2 33 5 6 261 5 8 | Five years ave- º 1,375 1,879 770 202 533 130 238 360 849 6,336 to 1860. Five years ave- º 533 1,073 410 - 468 200 50 1,355 1,085 5,174 to 1865. Cost per Cubic Yard. C, Yds Dredging. Boating. Hauling. Total. Five years average, viz., from 1856 to 1860 - - - 6 - 336 * x 22 2x 2861 to 1865 - - - 5' 174 d. d. d. d. 1845 2 * 52 8 * 87 1 * 0 I 2 - 39 NoTE-Raking and spooning not included in the above. 1850 1 - 78 7-95 1 - 0 i () - 7.3 is; 2 - 22 5* 70 1 - 0 8 92 1856 2 - 22 4 - 80 1 - 0 8 - 0 | 1s57 I 18 2' 63 1 - 0 4 - 81 1858 1. 77 4° 38 1 * 0 7 - 15 1859 1' 76 4' 66 H - 0 7 * 42 1860 2 - 76 5' 64 1 - 0 9 * 40 1861 * 0-94 3 * 28 1 * 0 5 - 22 1862 I '98 4 - 60 1 - 0 7-58 1863 1 * 43 3-77 1 * 0 6 - 20 1864 1-67 4 - 28 1 - 0 6' 95 | 1865 2 * 18 4° 68 1 - 0 7 - 86 - (Signed) W. H. BARTHOLOMEw. ; º º 234 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, LEEDS. PAPERs put in by W. H. BARTHOLOMEw, Esq., C.E., Engineer to the AIRE and CALDER NAvigation W. H. (referred to supra, Question 7355). Bar* CoMPARATIVE STATEMENT of DREDGING on the AIRE and CALDER NAVIGATION 1845 to 1865. sq. GOOLE CANAL. 8 Nov. 1866. - Amount. Date. Knottingley Knottingley Goole Total. Junction. Cut. Canal. - - - Dredging. Boating. Hauling. Total. C. Yds. C. Yds. C. Yds. C. Yds. £ s. d. £ s. d £ s. d. £ s. d 1845 Nil. Nil Nil Nil Nil Nil Nil Nil 1850 2,160 3,384 5,982 11,526 108 4 8 254 2 5 48 0 6 410 7 7 1855 3,168 7,736 Nil 10,904 97 19 9 231 16 6 45 8 8 375 4 11 1856 Nil Nil Nil Nil Nil Nil Nil Nil 1857 - 2,916 4,716 7,632 65 4 1 155 14 0 31 16 0 252 14 I 1858 - 972 10,708 11,680 103 12 217 18 8 || 48 13 4 || 370 4 2 1859 - Nil Nil Nil Nil Nil Nil Nil 1860 - 3,400 3,950 7,350 50 1 1 135 4 10 30 12 6 216 18 5 1861 - 4,737 3,586 8,323 51 19 6 192 9 5 34 13 7 279 2 6 1862 2,340 Nil 3,456 5,796 45 14 0 96 4 2 24 3 0 166 1 2 1863 Nil 14,250 1,368 15,618 132 18 3 311 13 3 65 1 6 509 13 0 1864 -- 2,382 3,063 5,445 43 3 0 95 0 10 22 13 9 160 17 7 1865 -- 792 1,938 2,730 22 16 0 51 17 3 11 7 6 86 0 9 Cost per Cube Yard for Goole Canal. Five years average viz.: C. Y ds. Dredging. Boating. Hauling. Total from 1856 to 1860 – 5,332 d. d. d. d. - ** 25 ,, 1861 to 1865 - 7,582 1845 Nil Nil Nil Nil 1850 2-25 5' 29 1 - 0 8 - 54 1855 2 - 15 5 - 10 1 - 0 8'25 1856 Nil Nil Nil Nil NotE.-Raking and spooning not included 1857 2 - 05 4 * 89 1 - 0 7. 94 in the above, 1858 2 - 12 4' 47 1- 0 7' 59 - 1859 Nil Nil Nil Nil 1860 1 - 63 4 * 41 1 - 0 7' 04 1861 1 - 49 5* 54 1 - 0 8° 03 1862 1 * 89 3 - 98 1 * 0 6-87 1863 2 * 04 4° 78 1 - 0 7-82 1864 1' 90 4 - 18 1 - 0 7-08 1865 2°0 4 - 55 1 * 0 7-55 (Signed) W. H. BARTHoloMEw. Mr. T. Wilson. Mr. THOMAS WILsoN (Leeds) examined. 7468. (Mr. Harrison.) I believe that you are secre- tary to the Aire and Calder Navigation ?—I am general manager of the Aire and Calder Navigation. 7469. How many years have you been connected with it 2–24 years. 7470. What was the condition of the rivers Aire and Calder when you first knew them, as to purity ? —Very different from what it is at present, I am sorry to say. That was previous to the sewage of Leeds being poured into the river, and previous to the sewage of Bradford (which comes down the river from the upper part) being poured in. 7471. Within that period there has been a very great increase of manufactures in the neighbourhood —Yes. 7472. We heard at Wakefield that within that period fish were abundant in the Calder —Yes. 7473. Were they so also in the Aire —Yes. 7474. Up to Leeds —Nearly up to Leeds. 7475. The Aire and Calder Navigation has existed under Act of Parliament for a considerable period — The first Act was passed in 1698, the second in 1774, the third, which only relates to the Goole Canal, in 1820, and the fourth in 1828. I have brought all the Acts except the Goole Canal Act. This being only for a canal, I do not know that it bears upon the in- quiry, but I can easily send it if the Commissioners require it. 7476. Will you give us as well the Goole Canal Act 7–I will take care to send it. I have marked on the margin, and at the head of it, the clauses which relate to the general powers of the undertakers, so far as they seem to bear upon the present inquiry. 7477. Under those Acts what power have you to prevent the pollution of the river ?—I think we have no power as to pollution unless it takes the form of solid matter, then we have ample power within our own jurisdiction : but we suffer most from the tributa- ries being foul, and from the water being polluted there, and clogged also with ashes, which are thrown in to a large extent where we have no jurisdiction to prevent it. 7478. Although the tributaries bring a large portion of solid pollution, such as may not be thrown into the river where you have jurisdiction, you cannot prosecute? —No, and that has been the case at Bradford, where the canal, I suppose, will be shut up, because it cannot supply itself with water except from the Bradford beck, which is in a bad state, and still they cannot pre- vent the pollution of the Bradford beck by any indict- ment under the common law. 7479. To whom does the Bradford canal belong 2 —To a body of shareholders. 7480. Is it a canal between Bradford and Leeds?— It is only three miles long, and it falls into the Leeds and Liverpool canal at Shipley, and so is connected with Leeds. 7481. Has it hitherto been able to stand against the competition of the railways —Yes. 7482. And to carry on a considerable traffic —And to carry on a very considerable traffic. 7483. Do you know that it is likely really to be stopped in consequence of an injunction against it as to the supply of water –The proprietors say that they must do so, that they have no alternative. 7484. That they have no other source of water sup- ply excepting from the Bradford beck —Yes. There is an injunction against their taking the waters of the Bradford beck after the 4th of this month. 7485. Do you exercise the powers which you pos- sess in restraining people from casting ashes and diffe- rent things into the river ?—We should do so if it took place within our jurisdiction to any great extent. 7486. We found that either the dread of a prosecu- tion or an actual prosecution had the effect at Wake- field of preventing their putting the ashes into the RIVERS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 235 river ?—Yes, but it does not prevent them here laying ashes on the banks of the river in such a position that the floods may undermine the heap and carry it into the stream. I think that perhaps it would be difficult for us, under the present state of the law, to deal with a case of that kind, and that the law should provide for it. 7487. There are ashes actually carried into the river in the neighbourhood of Leeds, over which you think you have not sufficient control –We have called the tatention of the parties to it, and they have generally desisted, for a time at any rate. We have never pro- secuted in such cases. 7488. The river Calder is embanked a good deal on both sides, is it not, in places 2–Yes. 7489. Was that done by the Aire and Calder navi- gation undertakers ?–I think not, if it was it was done for the purpose of improving the navigation. 7490. Are the flaps under the bank, and the diffe- rent things which keep the water from flowing back upon the land, under the control of the navigation company —I do not at this moment recollect any flaps under the bank. 7491. One was mentioned to us near Thornhill, where they said that the land had been flooded for some time, and they blamed the Aire and Calder Com- pany for allowing a bank to be formed against the flap so that it could not act —That would be on the Calder and Hebble Navigation, of which we have been lessees only about two years, and I do not think that our attention has been called to that, or we should have remedied it. 7492. Have you a copy of the Calder and Hebble Navigation Act —I will give you copies of those Acts. There are three of those Acts in force at present. 7493. Are there any further points to which you wish to call our attention ?—The only point which occurs to me is the question whether some alteration of the law could not be introduced which would give parties interested the power of preventing the filling up of streams by rubbish, or other matter of that kind. 7494. Do you think that the Aire and Calder Com- pany would be the proper persons to entrust with the power of preventing the pollution of the river within their jurisdiction ?—I think that they should be em- powered to be complainants if they suffered from it : but that the remedy should be by penalty enforced by the ordinary magistrates. 7495. I suppose that they could now proceed against any person sending any refuse into the river, could they not?—Within their jurisdiction I think they could. 7496. Do you wish to have the power enlarged beyond your jurisdiction, so that you might become The witness complainants at Huddersfield or Bradford 2–Cer- tainly, if we could prove that the act was injurious to the navigation. It matters not where the evil arises, whether it is within a few yards of the river, or whe- ther it is miles above. 7497. Although Mr. Ferrand could trace the Keighley slag opposite his property, I am afraid that there would be a doubt as to where it came from when it got down below Leeds 2—The law can go no further than throwing the onus of proof upon us, which no doubt is difficult. I think that if a sufficient penalty were imposed the fear of it would be enough to prevent the injury to the streams. 7498. You should be spared the burden of proving that the piece of slag which you have to dredge out below Leeds came from any particular spot, and be enabled to proceed if you found people casting refuse into the river at any part —Yes; we might send watchers to any particular part. 7499. Do you think an extension of the powers of the Aire and Calder Company over the entire navigable area, powers, in short somewhat similar to those lately given to the Conservators of the Thames navigation up to Cricklade, would be a desirable thing 2–Do you mean for navigation purposes? 7500. Not only for navigation, but for preventing pollution ; I include power to proceed against town authorities or against individuals for putting any objectionable refuse into the river ?—I do not recollect whether the Act gives them the power or merely makes them complainants. I imagine that in our case it would be quite sufficient to give us the power of complaining before the magistrates. 7501. That would make the act punishable 2–Yes, by the ordinary magistrates. 7502. You being allowed to become complainants 2 —Yes. 7503. Do you think that in that case it would be your interest to exercise a kind of watch over the entire area 2–I have no doubt it would, not a con- tinuous one, perhaps, but the knowledge that we had the power and the fear of the penalty would to a great extent protect us. 7504. The saving of the expense to which the Aire and Calder Company are annually put in the shape of dredging would recoup and possibly more than recoup the expense of keeping persons watching and of prosecuting offenders ?–Yes. 7505. (Chairman.) Is there anything further which you would wish to add to your evidence 2–No, nothing further occurs to me. If anything, however, should occur to the Commissioners it will be tº desire of the directors that we should give every possible in- formation and assistance which we can in this inquiry. withdrew. Mr. GEORGE TATHAM (Buslingthorpe) examined. 7506. (Chairman.) You are an alderman of the borough of Leeds —I am. - - 7507. Do you carry on any business in the borough of Leeds 2—Yes. 7508. What is that business?—It is the manufacture of sheep, calf, and goat skins, and glue manufacture. 7509. It is not termed tanning 2–It is not known by that name. Tanning is a simple process compared with ours; we dye and finish. 7510. And you produce the material which I am looking at 2–Yes. 7517. What is this leather used for 2–For book- binding, hat lining, portfolios, table-tops, carriage furniture, and almost everything. We call ourselves sheep leather manufacturers, and also glue makers. 7512. (Mr. Harrison.) Is the process, which, you carry on subsequent to Mr. Nickol’s dividing of the sheep hides? Tanning is generally confined to heavy hides. We are especially skin manufacturers ; we prepare and tan and dye and finish our goods. 7513. (Chairman.) In what part of Leeds are your works situated 2–They are situated upon the Sheep- scar beck at Buslingthorpe. 7514. What number of hands do you employ — About 360. 7515. Do you use steam or water power, or both * —We use steam power only. 7516. Do you use much water in the processes of your trade?—Yes, we use about 100,000 gallons a day. 7517. Where do you obtain it?—We have facility for pumping about half of it, and we use at least as much from the Sheepscar beck. 7518. For what purpose –The water from the beck we principally use for washing the sheep's skins as they come from the butchers. 7519. Is there any waste refuse from the washing process?—There is nothing appreciable from that process. 7520. Is the water in a condition to make it avail- able for washing, is it clean enough 2–We have to select it when it is least foul, it is excessively foul, but it answers our purpose. LEEDS. Mr. T. Wilson. 8 Nov. 1866. Mr. G. Tatham. G g 2 236 RIVERS COMMISSION: —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. I.EEDS. Mr. G. Tatham. 8 Nov. 1866. 7521. It answers your purpose at present?–Yes. 7522. Can you imagine a time to come when it will not answer —If it goes on deteriorating as it has done in the last 15 years I apprehend that it will hardly be fit for the purpose. 7523. What causes that deterioration *—There is a large amount of refuse sent in from other manufactories above us, both from tanneries and from woollen manu- factories. 7524. Which are the worst, the tanneries or the woollen manufactories — it is a choice of difficulties, the one discolours the water very much. I should almost think that the dyeworks are the worst. 7525. Do you discharge your water after you have done with it directly into the beck or into the sewers? —When our works were established there was no sewer up to our works, and all the refuse went into the beck. 7526. Does it continue to go into the beck 2–Yes. 7527. Could you put it into the sewer if you thought proper now 2–The sewer is near, and I believe that it is low enough to take our water, but the objection would be that if we took the water out of the beck and did not return it the millowners below us would complain of the loss. 7528. Do you take any of the town's water?—Yes, when we are short of water. We have a supply of spring water which we impound, and that in wet seasons will last us for a short time, so that then we do not require to pump. At other times we pump what we require. Occasionally the supply runs short although our bore-holes are 100 yards deep, and then we are driven on to the town’s water. 7529. What number of skins a week do you get 2— We generally get between 8,000 and 9,000 a week. 7530. And you convert them all into this material? —Yes. 7531. When these skins are manufactured where are they principally used ?–In England and America and the continent. 7532. Do you send out any to the East, to Con- stantinople —No ; we have no direct connexions there. We sometimes send to the East Indies. 7533. What number of tanneries are there upon Sheepscar beck?—There are nine on the beck which manufacture skins of different kinds, including our- selves. 7534. Do they produce these leathers or another kind of leather ?—Two manufacturers are the same as ourselves, the rest are mainly in the heavy trade. 7535. Are any of these split skins —Yes, they are nearly all split skins. 7536. Then from a skin you get two substances — Yes, one makes what is called wash-leather. 7537. Is this graining produced by machinery — That is done by an electroplate. Those are all arti- ficial grains. The one which you have in your hand is an imitation of pigskin which could not be detected under a microscope. 7538. Do you make an imitation of Russian leather ? —No. 7539. Are these leathers used for bookbinding 2– Yes, principally for what they call case-making, and portfolios, and that kind of thing. We also manufac- ture calf-skins which are largely used for ladies’ boots. 7540. Does the patent leather cloth manufacture which has sprung up so largely in recent times come injuriously into competition with you ?—it is used as a substitute for our leather to a large extent, but the demand is so great that if something had not been found as a substitute we could not have supplied the demand. What we used to pay 7d. for some years ago is now worth 274. 7541. You know, with regard to the wool trade of Yorkshire, that cloth is never worn out now, it comes back in the shape of shoddy and mungo?—Yes. 7542. Does this material of yours return in any fresh state of existence after it has been worn out in the condition in which it is here 2–There have been inventions for grinding and dissolving it and en- deavouring to treat it in that way, but I have not yet heard of any practical success from the experiments. 7543. There have been attempts to utilize it after it has been considered worn out 2–Yes. 7544. How many tan-pits are there upon your premises — About 130 of different kinds. 7545. Do you use lime?—The skins have to be steeped in lime and water in the first process. 7546. Do you use any acids 2—We use some in our glue manufacture, and also a little in what is called oil- leather and wash-leather manufacture, in recovering the cod oil used, which then becomes the article known as “sod oil.” 7547. Is there anything in your waste water which you could extract which might be beneficial in the same way as the grease of the oil-water which we have heard spoken of 2–We get out everything which we can, and anything which is valuable we sell as manure ; we have a person who buys our waste liquid from the glue works, a neighbouring farmer, and he pays a small sum yearly for it. 7548. Therefore it does not go into the beck 2–It does not. 7549. What becomes of the refuse from your work- people ; have you privies or waterclosets, or what conveniences have you for them 3–We have both privies and waterclosets. 7550. Are the privies emptied by yourselves 2–The farmers in the neighbourhood come and take the soil. 7551. Do the waterclosets pass into the sewers or into the beck P—Into the beck. 7552. Would there be any difficulty in your keeping the refuse from the waterclosets out of the beck 2– No. - 7553. Then you would not consider it a very great hardship if you were restricted from passing the refuse from the waterclosets into the beck 2–No. The only difficulty would be from being debarred the free use of the water coming down the Sheepscar beck. 7554. You would not like to be deprived of the use of the water by persons above you turning it away because it was somewhat tainted, and you feel your- self obliged to return the water from your own works into the beck with any pollution which you may have put into it?—Yes. 7.555. Therefore if any means of purification is to be adopted it must be something which is general, both above you and below you ?—I suppose so. I do not see how we can purify our own water so as to make it anything like pure like what we see on the table. 7.556. What material do you use for obtaining the colours we see here 2–The usual dyeing material. 7557. Do you use much indigo 2–Yes, a con- siderable quantity. 7558. Is any of that material passed into the beck 2 —Not that we know. We work the vats, and get out all the colouring matter as far as we possibly can. 7559. You keep strengthening the indigo vats and do not draw them off I suppose P-We draw them off very seldom, only when they are quite spent. 7560. (Mr. Harrison.) How long is that some- times?—Sometimes two months or more. 7561. (Chairman.) But when you do draw them off I presume that the water goes into the beck — It does. 7562. I presume that at that time it will be deeply coloured 2–There will be some colouring, but not very much blue colouring matter in it. 7563. Do you think that it would be a hardship for you to extract that colouring matter, if it could be shown that you could do it very cheaply, for a few pounds a year —I do not think that the quantity of blue which we make is very material. Our waste liquid which we turn into the stream is mainly from the lime pits which have been used, and from the spent bark pits, and the other liquors which are pro- duced in the different manufactures, and I can see no practicable way of purifying them. They might possibly be turned into the drains, but I do not see how they could be purified. 7564. You have not attempted in any way to purify them Pi—No. RIVERS COMMISSION:---MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 237 7565. You have not at all given your attention to it?–No. 7566. Do you know the process of paper making 2 —Yes, a little. 7567. There is a process by which paper makers can purify their waste water. Do you sell the refuse lime as manure; is it carted away with the other refuse, or does a portion of it go into the beck – What is held in mechanical combination goes into the beck, and the refuse is sold as manure. 7568. (Mr. Harrison.) Could you by settling tanks increase the quantity of that portion which settles to the bottom and which you sell as manure ?–It would be very difficult I think. 7569. Where is the water power for which you say you must return your water —There are mills below us using the water. 7570. (Chairman.) For wheel power P--Yes, there are two water-wheels or more. 7571. (Mr. Harrison.) So that they would com- plain if you did not return the quantity of water — Yes, that is the difficulty which I see. We have a washing place, and we take in the water and wash our skins and it goes out again. That is the main quantity of water. We find that the beck water is very material to us. We could not do without it. 7572. (Chairman.) You would otherwise have to get a volume of water somewhere else —Yes, 7573. And that would be a question of cost –Yes. 7574. You could not afford to give 6d. per 1,000 gallons of water?—Certainly not. We pump 48,000 gallons, and in some seasons we use a great deal more than that in the washing process. We do not very accurately measure what we use. We have a washing trough. Sometimes I should think we use 200,000 gallons a day. 7575. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you find that you have to lower your wells so as to maintain your supply of water 2–Sometimes we have to clear out the borehole, and at some times we think that we have a greater amount than at others. 7576. (Chairman.) What depth is your hole?— 300 feet. 7577. What depth are your pumps from the sur- face –The working barrel of the pump is about 20 feet below the surface of the ground; it works in a vault. 7578. Then your suction pipe will perhaps go down 20 feet more ?—Yes. 7579. Do you not think that you could get a very much larger supply of water if you put the working barrel of your pump at a lower depth?—Yes. We have considered that as a question of expense. So long as we can go on well and comfortably as we are, we continue so. 7580. Does the water rise from the 300 feet up to the surface, or nearly to the surface —It rises I think to within 15 feet at times. 7581. Then the probability is that you might have double or three or four fold your water by putting your barrel lower down 2–I think so. 7582. Is it a good quality of water?—Yes, a very good quality of water. 7583. Is it softer than the town's water or the beck water —It is not so soft as the beck water, but it is softer than the river Aire. 7584. Is soft water an advantage to you ?–Yes, a great advantage. 7585. In what way?—It makes the goods more mellow and richer, and more pliable and easier to work. 7586. Do you use any soap —No. 7.587. Do you use anything as a substitute, such as fuller's earth 2–No ; the skins have to go through a similar process to the treating of cloth with pigs' dung; they have to go through a mixture of dogs' dung. We find dogs’ dung the best, just as pigs' dung is for cloth. 7588. How do you get the dogs’ dung —It is a trade in our neighbourhoods; we give from 9d, to 1s, a bucket for it; whole tribes of boys come with it every morning. 7589. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you aware that within the last year a person who keeps a number of dogs LEEDS. had an action brought against him in consequence of Mr. G. Tatham. the nuisance caused by them —I was not aware of that. We obtain the dogs’ dung from kennels in the neighbourhood. I mean from Bramham Park and Badsworth, and different places in the neighbourhood. 7.590. Is the demand for it very extensive 2–It depends upon the quantity which we are manufac- turing ; we are sometimes short. I have known human excrement used in the place of it, but the objection to it is that it is so extremely offensive. 7591. Where are the skins which you use obtained 2 —Principally from our own neighbourhood. 7592. Are any sheepskins imported?—There are some which are imported in a tanned state, they come very much from Australia. 7593. Do you know the quantity imported ?—The quantity of skins and hides of all kinds dressed upon the Sheepscar beck is about one-half of the whole which are dressed in the borough of Leeds; that fact is taken from statistics which we obtained during the cattle plague. About 1,300,000 are dressed upon the Sheepscar beck, and, as nearly as I can estimate, about 550,000 are foreign skins. 7594. What is the total importation of hides 2–I am not prepared to say. 7595. You cannot state what proportion you use at Leeds, compared with the whole kingdom 2–No. We here dress hides and skins of all kinds, about 2; millions every year. 7596. Has Sheepscar beck obtained its name from the preparing of sheepskins 2–No. 7597. (Professor Way.) Has any effort been made to substitute anything else for dogs’ dung 2—We have tried ammonia, and salt, and soda, and some other things, but we have found nothing which will produce the same effect as dogs' dung so economically, or which is so well adapted for the purpose. 7598. Is it not the fact that dogs’ dung consists almost entirely of bones highly divided and com- minuted 2–I had some dogs’ dung analysed by a chemist of Leeds, and phosphate of lime seemed to be a large constituent of it. 7599. Was not there phosphate of lime in large quantity ?—I have the analysis at my works. 7600. Have highly diluted ground bones ever been tried as a substitute for dogs’ dung —No ; but per- haps the experiment is worth trying. The use of this material is a great nuisance. 7601. (Mr. Harrison.) I am to gather from your evidence that you would find greater difficulty in dealing with your tan refuse than Mr. Nickols and others would find in dealing with theirs, Their refuse might be sent into the sewer without any person com- plaining *-Yes. 7602. But if yours was to be turned on to the land, you would diminish the water power for the mills below 2–Yes, I believe that the drain which has been made since we have been there is low enough to carry off the water from the pits. The pits are about five or six feet deep, and if the refuse had to run from the bottom of the pit into the drain, that drain must be very low. I am rather doubtful whether the drain is sufficiently low although we were told that it was. 7603. But supposing that it was sufficient, there would arise the difficulty of abstracting the water from the mill power —Yes. 7604. (Chairman.) What kind of skins do you use for this process –Sheepskins. 7605. Exclusively 2–Yes, those samples are all sheepskins except one. 7606. Are kangaroo skins to any extent imported into this country?—Yes, we have had kangaroo skins. 7607. For what purpose do you import kangaroo skins?—They make very good leather for boots, but we have never had any except from curiosity. We have not had them as an article of commerce. They would be very valuable if they came in sufficient num- bers, and at a reasonable price. 8 Nov. 1866. - G g 3 238 | RIVERs CoMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 7608. Do any alpaca skins come over to this country —No, I never heard of any. 7609. Have you any sheepskins from the country where the alpaca wool comes from, or are the skins not sent because they would not bear the carriage, or what is the reason –In many of these countries where the sheep are grown the atmosphere is so hot that between the time of the sheep being killed and the skin being dried, unless great care is used, the skin becomes putrid. 7610. Have you never had alpaca skins submitted to you to see what kind of leather they would produce —No. 7611. Do you tan dog skins 2–No. I have tanned one of my own, but not as an article of commerce. 7612. If dog skins were supplied in sufficient quantity would they serve a similar purpose to sheep- skins 2–No, they are not large enough. 7613. And the substance I suppose is not the same * —No, it is different altogether. They are useful for gloves. 7614. Do you know whether it is true that rat skins are very largely tanned and used for gloves?— I have heard of it but I do not know it. 7615. There is no such trade in England?—No. 7616. If there had been such a trade in England do dou think that you would have known of it in Leeds? —Yes. 7617. Do you tan pig skins at your premises — No, the pigs in this part are not skinned. In Scot- land they are skinned and the skins are chiefly tanned in Scotland. 7618. Pig skin is used for saddles —Yes, and what I have produced is an imitation either for inferior saddles or for a part not requiring any great wear. 7619. (Professor Way.) This imitation of the pig skin is not so permanent as the pig skin itself?–No, it is about one third of the price. One of those skins is an imitation of goat skin. It is quite as beautiful, or more so, and it is one third of the price, but it will not wear so well. 7620. (Chairman.) Goat morocco 2–Yes. 7621. It is called morocco I suppose because it was first introduced from Morocco into this country — Yes. 7622. Do you tan many goat skins –We tan some, but our chief trade is in sheep skins. Goat skins are much more largely manufactured in Germany and France, and a few in London. 7623. Is anything done with hare and rabbit skins in the shape of tanning, or are they simply used as fur –The fur is cut off the rabbit-skins by those who make it into hats. The skins are cut into shreds, and we buy the shreds to boil for glue. They are not tanned. 7624. What becomes of hare skins?—They are treated in the same way I believe. There is a great number of those small animals which produce fur whose skins are treated in the same way; they are cut into shreds. 7625. Did you ever tan chicken skins 2–No. 7626. Did you ever hear of its being done?—No. 7627. (Mr. Harrison.) Is the Sheepscar beck a nuisance?—It has been complained of lower down the town and in consequence it is intended to improve the bed of it by our Improvement Bill. It becomes offensive in hot weather. 7628. (Chairman.) Is it not contemplated to arch it over?—That was under contemplation. We have taken power to do so, but it is not intended to carry it out. 7629. You have merely walled the side of it and formed an invert so as to take away the refuse more quickly —Yes. 7630. (Mr. Harrison.) At the lower part of the town it might be carried through without any diffi- culty?—I think so. 7631. So that what Mr. Rawlinson mentioned just now of the plan of having the beck covered in its passage through the town and allowing the water to LEEDS. Mr.G.Tatham. 8 Nov. 1866. skin I suppose is be used in different places might meet the difficulty, the water being eventually turned into the sewer and taken with the sewage on to the land?—I should suppose so. 7632. Do you see any other way of meeting the difficulty of that pollution ?—No. 7633. (Professor Way.) You use the ordinary dyes such as are used in the woollen trade 2–Yes. 7634. But many of these colours, I suppose, are got from variations in the quantity ?—Some of them. 7635. How many different kinds of material are brought to bear in order to produce this result 2–We use in our dyehouse a very large number, perhaps 150 different articles of all kinds. The principal are indigo and cochineal, and the dyewoods and the aniline colours. 7636. The variations of colour are got by different mixtures —Yes, and by toning down with different things. 7637. (Chairman.) From what leather are gloves made *-Gloves are generally made from kid-skins— young goat skins. 7638. And from dogskins 2–Yes, 7639. Is what you would call the best Paris kid or best Dent's kid really the skin of kid?—Yes, I should say so. It will be tanned and shaved down. 7640. Is that process carried on in Leeds 2—No. 7641. Where is the seat of that trade 2–At Paris, I should imagine, in France, and in Switzerland, and some in London and Worcester. 7642. Do you think that Dents get their skins from Paris —I suppose so. 7643. Do you use engine power —Yes. 7644. To what extent?—About 50-horse power. 7645. What weight of coal do you use per annum ? —We use about 200 tons a month. 7646. What weight of refuse ashes have you?—We have a considerable quantity of ashes of course. Those we lead away to wherever we have an opportunity of placing them. 7647. If you have 200 tons a month of coal do you know what weight of ashes you have in a month 2– No, I have never tested that. 7648. You do take the ashes away?—Yes. 7649. At a cost to yourselves 2–Yes. 7650. Do you remember about what the cost is 2– It is just the leading away, it will not be a very great deal, it depends upon where we can find a place to put them. 7651, You do not put any of them into the beck 2 —No. 7652. Therefore, in order to carry on your trade, you have to incur the expense of carrying away your ashes 2–Yes, together with our spent bark. The spent bark is not of any value, and we have to deal with it in the same way. 7653. Have you never tried to burn it under the boiler —Yes, and it burnt the bottom of the boiler out. In the first place, the spent bark is generally damp, we cannot afford the time to dry it, a few shovel-fulls damps the fire, and afterwards burns up very strongly, and that makes the heat intense, and the expansion and contraction wear out the joints. 7654. Therefore you have ceased to burn the spent bark on that account –Yes. We had a press on purpose to squeeze all the liquid out of the bark and to make it nearly dry, and we used it in that state, but the effect was so injurious that we abandoned the practice. 7655. To what was it injurious?—To the boilers, in the way of which I speak. The burning under the boilers injured the plates. 7656. Then it was too good for its purpose 2–It was not dry enough. - 7657. (Professor Way.) I suppose that a certain part of the absolute fuel of the coal was taken in drying the spent bark —We found no saving in using our spent bark. 7658. What kind of press was it which you em- ployed; was it a continuous press –It was a press made for the purpose. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 239 7659. Have you heard that the brewers have endeavoured to burn their spent hops in the same way ?–No. 7660. I have seen it done, and have also been informed that instead of a saving it is an expense, still they have to get rid of them 3–Just so. The saving at which we were aiming was as regards lead- ing the refuse away. We at one time burnt the bark in a heap and then the neighbours complained of the nuisance and of the smell. 7661. (Mr. Harrison.) If you follow up the Sheep- scar beck where do you get anything like pure water —At Addle we get pure water above the manufactories. There is the Addle reservoir. 7662. Does that belong to the corporation :-No, it belongs to the mills on the stream. 7663. It is a compensation reservoir 2–Yes. 7664. Was it erected by the millers in conjunction? —I suppose so, it was before my time. There are manufacturers on the beck almost to the extent of the boundary, The witness withdrew. Mr. JoHN MITCHELL (Leeds) examined. 7665. (Mr. Harrison.) You are a member of the College of Veterinary Surgeons – I am. 7666. And you are engaged as a veterinary surgeon in this neighbourhood —Yes. 7667. How long have you been so engaged — 20 years. 7668. In the neighbourhood of Leeds –Yee, I have been all my life in the neighbourhood. 7669. Do you know the outlet of the Leeds sewer P —Very well indeed. 7670. Have you as a veterinary surgeon observed any ill effects from the sewage being passed into the river at that point?—I was cattle inspector for that district, and my duties led me down there every day during the latter end of last summer, and the river during that time was in a most abominable condition. 7671. It was a dry summer ?–Yes, and very little water got into the river, and it was studded from one end to the other with faecal matter floating at the top ; in fact, I cannot make use of sufficiently strong language to describe the state of the river. 7672. Was the smell very bad —Awful; there was a continual exhalation of gas, and the river was in a complete state of ferment. Sulphuretted and car- buretted hydrogen were given off in large quantities. 7673. Did you see large masses of matter raised up? —Yes, I have seen faecal matter floating on the top of the river, the result of a fresh fermentation, and I have also observed very large quantities thrown up on account of the gas being disengaged. 7674. Do you know whether the cattle in the fields adjoining the river drank of the water of the river ? —They did not drink of it of necessity, but they did drink of it. 7675. Did you observe any ill effects from their drinking it?–It no doubt predisposed them to disease. Thorpe Hall was the first place in Yorkshire where the cattle plague existed. 7676. Could you trace the cause of the introduction of the cattle plague into that neighbourhood in any way ?–It was traced to the introduction of a foreign bullock into the pastures. 7677. Where was it imported from ?—It was brought to Leeds market, and thence to the Thorpe Hall pastures. 7678. Where was it landed ?–I do not know. I believe that it was one of a cargo which was sent over to Hull and went to London. 7679. Do you think that the disease itself was introduced by that animal?—Most decidedly. 7680. Am I to learn that you think that the cattle which were grazing in the meadows were predisposed to disease in consequence of having drank the water of the Aire —Yes, and from having inhaled the vapour. - 7681. And from the condition of the atmosphere 2 —Decidedly. 7682. Was the result very marked 2–It was very bad indeed. 7683. Are those meadows common meadows 2– Yes, they are meadows upon which any person can turn in cattle by paying for them. 7684. What number of cattle might there be upon .." marshes?—Last year there were perhaps nearly 7685. After the disease was introduced was an order issued for the non-removal of the cattle 2– Some little time afterwards; but in the meantime a great portion of them were removed after the first case of cattle plague had made its appearance. 7686. Before the cattle were prevented from being removed, could you trace the disease as being carried by those which had been removed to other parts of the country – I only traced one case. From a distance of 20 or 30 miles people bring their cattle to those pastures ; they bring them from Huddersfield and round Bradford. 7687. You presume that as soon as they found the cattle plague there they removed them off as soon as they could –Yes. 7688. What number were left when the Order in Council was issued 2–About 100. 7689. What proportion of them were carried off?— j, think that nearly 70 died, and besides these some were slaughtered, being supposed to be diseased. 7690. Were any taken away from the meadows sub- sequently to the Order in Council for their non- removal?—Yes. 7691. Was it your duty as inspector to prevent that ?—I summoned a person before the magistrates. 7692. What was the result 2–There was a penalty. He took 20 away from the pastures to Swillington, in the immediate neighbourhood, and he lost 14 of them. 7693. Other cattle took the disease from those which had been taken from these meadows 2–No cattle in the neighbourhood took it except the 20 which that person took away, none but his own cattle took it. 7694. Had you no case where cattle in the neigh- bourhood took it from those which were removed 2–I had a case within three-quarters of a mile, but we could not trace any contact at all. I had only two infected farms in the village. 7695. You say that you have lived in this neighbour- hood all your life, do you observe much alteration in the condition of the river ?—Yes, both above and below Leeds. 7696. Do you find it in any way the cause of ill- health to stock on the banks of the river ?—I do not know any cattle which graze on the banks, excepting those at Thorpe Hall, and there there is generally a disease of some sort. A few years ago a very large number both of horses and cattle died from what is called splenic apoplexy. 7697. What number of cattle died altogether in this neighbourhood from the cattle plague 2–I had nothing to do with the borough : my division was the Skyrack division of the West Riding. 7698. In that division how many died under your inspection ?—About 150, as nearly as I can guess. 7699. Do you believe that there is any remedy for the disease?—No. 7700. Do you think that the means which were taken were the proper steps for staying the plague 2– Decidedly ; slaughtering the beast and stamping the disease out. 7701. Did you slaughter to any great extent 2– Only five. - 7702. Was that strictly in accordance with the order and the Act of Parliament 2–Yes. I have slaughtered since the compensation. I slaughtered LEEDS. Mr. G. Tatham. 8 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. Mitchell. --- G g 4 240 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. - Mr.J. Mitchell. 8 Nov. 1866. - S. Smith, Esq. five before there was any compensation to owners, but after the compensation clause I have perhaps slaughtered a dozen. 7703. Not more than a dozen —Not more than a dozen. The disease has been dying out; we have had none since last April. 7704. Is there anything else which you wish to state 2–I may observe that the water of the Aire has to flow over a dam stone about two-thirds of the Jength of the pasture from the outlet, and the stench there is abominable, it is fit to knock anyone down ; the water runs several feet over a dam Stone, and the smell is awful. 77.05. Is that generally the case, or do you allude to any particular time –Only in very dry weather. 7706. How far could you perceive that smell from this dam stone –Several hundred yards. 7707. Have you known any ill-health occasioned to individuals by it?–Yes. 7708. How did that come under your notice —By agentleman telling me himself. I believe that he was obliged to remove from the neighbourhood. Mr. Fenton, who lived at a house at Thorpe Stapleton, told me that he dared not open his windows. 7709. Was that the farmhouse which was mentioned yesterday ?–No, it was a house which he built some little time ago at Thorpe Stapleton. 7710. (Professor Way.) You mentioned that you were of opinion that the smells arising from the river and the drain predisposed the cattle to disease?—No doubt of it. 7711. Did you observe any effect in intensifying the disease when they were attacked, was the attack more rampant 2–Decidedly. 7712. May we take it that the cattle plague is a kind of typhus, at least is that the effect —That is the effect. 7713. And does decomposition rapidly set in even during life P-It does. 7714. Is it the case that putrid emanations of dif- ferent kinds will cause a very rapid destruction of meat or animal matter 2–Decidedly. 7715. Then you think that the cases were less likely to be met by treatment where such a cause as this discharge of sewage existed than otherwise — Decidedly. 7716. In your opinion is the cattle plague reme- diable -I think not ; I never yet attempted to cure a CaSe. 7717. Therefore the slaughtering of the animals can hardly be said to have destroyed the chance of saving their lives, for they would have died under any circumstances —Just so ; almost every animal had medicine given to it by the owner. 7718. (Chairman.) Did it come within your know- ledge that any of the meat was consumed for human food?—A great deal of it. 7719. What were the effects 2–There were no bad effects that I know of; I have eaten of it myself. 7720. Did you try any experiments with dogs — No ; I know that experiments have been tried at the college. I saw the dogs and the cats as well. 7721. I suppose that it is a fact that besides dogs there are birds and animals which have the power of assimilating putrid meat —Yes. 7722. To almost any extent?—To any extent. 7723. Have you ever known dogs injured by eating putrid meat —I have known them break out with mange and other cutaneous diseases. 7724. Do you think that that is from being kept on carrion ?—Yes. - 7725. In hunting kennels what sort of meat is usually given to the dogs —Horseflesh, and boiled oatmeal or Indian real is mixed with it. 7726. What would be the effect of feeding fox- hounds upon tainted meat —They no doubt would suffer in their health. 7727. Are they also obliged to be careful in cleans- ing the kennels?—Very. 7728. (Professor Way.) Is dog's meat given un- cooked 2–No, it is all cooked. 7729. Would it be injurious if it was given un- cooked 2–Decidedly. 7730. Do you know whether in the case which you speak of at Thorpe Stapleton there was any difficulty in keeping cooked or uncooked provisions 2–I never heard that. I know that the owner of the house was very fond of high-kept provisions—grouse, and things of that sort. He used to send to Leeds for grouse which I think would scarcely bear the carriage home. 7731. I suppose that you know that an impure atmosphere is not suited for the preservation of meat in a fresh state?—Certainly not. 7732, Was there any indication of that ?—I never heard of it. The witness withdrew. SAMUEL SMITH, Esq. (Leeds), examined. 7733. (Chairman.) Are you a doctor of medicine * —No ; I am a Fellow of the College of Surgeons. 7734. How long have you resided in Leeds?— Seventy-six years. 7735. How long have you known the river and the becks flowing into the river at Leeds —Since I was 10 years of age. 7736. In what condition were they when you first knew them 2–They were very clear streams, and there was very excellent fishing even in what is now the centre of the town. 7737. You remember catching fish in the becks where the centre of the town now is?—Yes ; my principal fishing place was upon an island called School Close, which at that time consisted of green fields and hedges with tenters, and scarcely an in- habitant in it; but Mr. Fowler will tell you that it is now full of streets and houses, warehouses and mills, and is a very populous district. That was my first fishing ground. 7738. Can you state anything to the Commissioners relative to the health of the inhabitants of Leeds as coming to your knowledge as consulting surgeon to the infirmary –Yes ; but I cannot state much, as I was the surgeon of the infirmary and not the physician —the surgical cases only came under my observation. 7739. With regard to the surgical operations, have you found any difficulty in treating them in the wards of your hospitals in Leeds —Yes; we have had occa- sionally erysipelas and hospital gangrene prevail. 7740. That I suppose indicates a bad atmosphere 2 —Yes. 7741. I understand that a new infirmary is being erected now 2–Yes. 7742. Larger, and of a superior class?—Yes, and with every appliance to prevent these diseases. 7743. That I suppose will confer a great benefit upon the inhabitants –We have no doubt it will. 7744. When will that infirmary be opened 2–It would have been opened next summer ; but, as they will have a great exhibition there in the spring of 1868, it will probably not be opened till the winter of that year—perhaps not till the following spring. 7745. Is the exhibition to be in aid of the funds for furnishing the institution ?—Yes. 7746. What state do you find the rivers and becks in now —Horrible. 7747. Very foul?—At the request of the town clerk a few months ago I examined what is called the Sheeps- car beck, from Timber bridge at the bottom of Kirk- gate, to the Tobacco mill at Sheepscar, and I found it in a most horrible state ; there were dead cats and dogs and filth of every description that you can imagine, and the water was actually black. 7748. Do you think that that is a state of things that ought to continue to exist?—No. 7749. If it can be remedied it ought to be?— Certainly. 7750. Have you ever been a member of the town council of Leeds?—No. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 7751. You have noticed, I daresay, that they have carried out a system of sewerage 2–Yes. 7752. Do you know whether there is as much fever now as when you first knew Leeds, in proportion to the population?—I should think we have more ; for the few years immediately following the completion of the sewerage we had considerably less fever than we had had for many years; but we have had rather an accession of fever during the past year. 7753. In what portions of the town, does the greatest amount of fever prevail—in the lower dis. tricts?—I have not had much practice amongst that sort of people; but I think it prevails a little more in the east, towards the bank and along Sheepscar heck. 7754. Is there anything further that you wish to add 2–Only that I have had experience of the fishing in the river Aire and in the Calder 60 years ago, when a good basket of fish could be taken ; but no such thing can be done now, that has been gone for 30 years. 7755. You do not think that it will come back un- less something were to result from this Commission to bring about the purification of the water 2–I have no doubt that good can be done. I know a gentleman who saw two salmon rise at once below the bridge at Harewood, but that has not been seen for 40 or 50 years. 7756. Was that in consequence of any improve- ments which had taken place 2–I think it was in consequence of an alteration of the dams and the salmon ladders. I may state that about 50 years ago I attended a person of the name of Nelson, who lived at Beeston Lodge—I think he died when he was about 80—and he said that when he was a young man he once speared a salmon weighing above 20 lbs. in School Close, in Mr. Lawson's gardens; that was about 110 years ago, in the island I have been speaking of, that which is now the centre of Leeds. 7757. (Mr. Harrison.) What kind of fish did you catch in your time 2—In the neighbourhood of the town nothing but scale fish; but two or three miles up I occasionally got a trout; four miles down, the river abounded in both trout and grayling; opposite Temple Newsome I have often killed a nice basket of fish, 60 years ago, with a fly. 7758. (Professor Way.) I suppose you look upon the question of the fish rather as an indication of the impurity or purity of the water than as being of - - 241 material importance to the welfare of the district 2– Yes. 7759. May we also take it that you consider such a condition of the river as at present obtains in the Aire and its tributaries is prejudicial to the health and comfort of the people of the district –Certainly. 7760. And ought to be remedied if possible — Yes. 7761. You do not hold out any great advantage in the fish coming back, even if they could —I do not know ; I think that many labouring men, at times when they were slack of work, used to go and make a very good day's wages by catching fish and selling them at 4d. or 6d. a pound. I have know many instances of that kind, of men who always took to it when they were out of work. 7762. Suppose the river could be so purified as to make it habitable by fish, if it cost each manufacturer 50l. or 100l. a year it would be rather a dear dish of fish –Yes, certainly. 7763. Something short of that would be still a great advantage to the district —Yes. There are places in which large quantities of fish were to be found 50 and 60 years ago, but now a fish is scarcely ever seen. A few months ago I went to see the wife of the tenant of Fleet mills. I walked with him to the Woodlesford Station mill and I was astonished to see the filth and the blackness of the river, and he said that when he was first a tenant his men would sometimes kill 14 stone of scale fish with a net in an evening, but latterly there is scarcely ever a fish seen. 7764. Were they valuable fish 2–No, but they would sell for 4d. a pound. I mean dace and chub, fish with scales. I was once attending a patient at Newton, two miles beyond Castleford. I baited my horse at Castleford on the road home, and Ifished for an hour or so, and once killed 27 lbs. weight of scale fish in three hours with the fly, from 9 to 12 at noon; but I think if I were to go now and fish for 20 days I probably could not kill 2 lbs. That was about 40 years ago. 7765. (Mr. Harrison.) In a town like Leeds where there is a dense population adjoining the river, and where the labourers cannot without a considerable walk get out into the country, if the river would afford them that amusement, would it not be a source of great enjoyment and health to them 2–Certainly, even if they caught nothing. 7766. They could not get fresh air without a long walk 2–No, and they would catch very little fish now- adays. The witness withdrew. Mr. CHARLEs SMITH (Leeds) examined. 7767. (Chairman.) Are you manager of the old gasworks of Leeds 2—I am engineer. 7768. What was the date of the formation of those works 2–They were incorporated in 1818. 7769. What number of retorts have you in use now? —440. 7770. What weight of coal do you use in a year 2– About 38,000 tons. - 7771. Do you use cannel coal?—Mixed coal. We manufacture about 310,000,000 cubic feet per annum. 7772. What do you purify with ?—Oxide of iron and dry lime. 7773. In what proportion do you use those puri- fiers?—We use the oxide of iron to take out the ammonia, and the lime to take out the sulphur. 7774. You use them jointly 2–Yes. 7775. What weight of lime do you use in a year : —I think nearly 2,000 tons. 7776. What becomes of that when you have used it?—It is sold to the farmers as manure at 6d. a load. 7777. Have you any difficulty in selling it 2–Just now we have a stock on hand, but it is the first we have had for some time. 7778. How many tons have you now 2–500. 7779. Has that lime any special name 2–It is com- monly called gas lime, 17159.-2, 7780. You do not use wet lime, do you ?–No. 7781. What amount of coke do you make per annum ?—We make about 12 cwt. per ton of coal on the average. 7782. Of course you have no difficulty in getting rid of the coke P-We sell it. 7783. Do you use it on your own premises for heating the retorts 2–Yes. - 7784. You do not necessarily make smoke 2–No, no smoke. 7785. Except in the first charging of the retort?— That is all collected. We do not allow that to escape. 7786. (Professor Way.) In drawing the retorts is there no smoke 2–Yes, a little ; when the hot coke falls upon a little tar that causes smoke, but it all goes up the works. 7787. Does not it go outside —It goes out through the ventilators certainly. 7788. Is any refuse at all passed into the streams from your works?—None at all, except when we are compelled to empty a large gasholder tank, which is very rare. I have been there 34 years and there have been only three emptied during that time, and they were emptied for the purpose of making repairs. 7789. You can carry on gas making without injuriously affecting the stream?—Yes, H h LEEDS. S. Smith, Esq. S Nov. 1866. Mr. C. Smith. 242 —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. . RIVERS COMMISSION : LEEDS. Mr. C. Smith, 8 Nov. 1866. 7790. If necessary I suppose you could do something to get rid of that water —I do not know. That would be a difficult matter. Where should we put it 7791. What volume is it?—About 1,250,000 gallons in our present gasholders, that is, in the tanks. 7792. Of what diameter are they 2–102 feet. We have one 120 feet. We are just filling two of 102 feet each, and they will take about 2,500,000 gallons. 7793. Does the gas take up any vapour so as to reduce it, or are you obliged to keep supplying the tank 2–No ; what we call a good tank of rain will supply all the evaporation, that is, the rain that falls on the holder. 7794. (Professor Way.) Is there any condensation in those holders that would make material worth extracting, is there any ammonia in the water after it has been used ?–Yes; it will be slightly tainted with ammonia in the working. 7795. Is that worth extracting 2–No ; we have gasholders which have been in use since 1824, and the same water is still in. 7796. When you are bound to change the water, has it ever been suggested that there might be in that water material worth extracting –Not to pay the expense. - 7797. (Chairman.) With regard to the condensed water in your receptacles on the mains, what do you do with it 2–That is carted back to the works and put into tar cellars. - 7798. It is not thrown into the sewers ?–No ; it would cause us great trouble if we did that ; parties would complain of the escaped gas, and we should then have to send a man to ascertain the cause, and we should find it a great cost to do that ; we find it advantageous to cart the syphon drippings into wells. 7799. You use your coke or sell it, and all the gas tar and ammoniacal liquor, and all the refuse lime 2– Yes. 7800. Does the oxide of iron ever become exhausted? —It is furnished to us and brought on to the premises, and we receive a certain price per ton for saturating it with ammonia, and the parties take it back again and extract the ammonia from it. 7801. And bring back the iron again –Yes. 7802. That I suppose would not sufficiently purify the gas without the aid of lime —It would not. 7803. Would there be any hardship in taking away that lime daily as it is produced, instead of storing it? —I think there would be a hardship. I think we should not be able to get rid of it daily; in some parts of the season the carts are waiting for it for two or three hours; but it depends upon how the farmers are situated. 7804. Have you ever used any of it to grind up into mortar 2–Yes. 7805. With what effect 2–It does not answer for that purpose. If a wall was built with it, and damp weather was to come on, every joint of the bricks or stone would show through the plaster. 7806. For the foundations of bridges and other purposes below the ground, and for heavy work of that kind, for the foundations of large warehouses, for instance, it makes good binding mortar, does it not ?— I have never seen it used for that purpose. 7807. (Mr. Harrison.) Where are your gasworks situated 2–One is in the east end of the town, and the other over the river, at New Wortley. 7808. Mr. Tennant in his evidence to-day stated that a few years ago, he had been annoyed by gas refuse passing down the river. Would that have been from your works –No. 7809. (Chairman.) You use cast-iron for your street mains and wrought-iron for your services, do you not *—Yes, for the smaller ones, 7810. What size is yonr largest wrought-iron service –One inch; we go to cast-iron after that. 7811. What endurance do you get out of wrought- iron –It greatly depends upon the place where it is laid I know branches in soil or clay that are per- fectly sound to this day, though they have been laid 20 years; but if laid in ashes from chemical works they will not last 20 months. 7812. It depends upon the material in which they are laid 2–Yes. . 7813. Do you use for the inner parts of houses block tin, or a mixture of tin and lead 2–A com- position. 7814. Do you use that because it bends about with facility ? — No, not exactly for that reason, but because no corrosion will form inside it, as in iron ; if there is a little moisture it will not corrode or rust, like iron tubing. 7815. Would there be any difficulty in supplying an entire building like this with wrought-iron tubingſ instead of the other ?—No. 7816. In putting your wrought-iron tubing together, your men manage to make their couplings or joints so that they can take them to pieces at particular parts without breaking down a great length 2–That is the general practice of gasfitters. 7817. There is no difficulty in carrying wrought- iron mains anywhere and in any direction with bends- and couplings made by the fitters ?—There is not the slightest difficulty. 7818. If you were told that they are not used for waterwork purposes because they are so much more difficult to handle, I suppose you would not believe that 2–No. 7819. Have wrought-iron fittings been used for water supply purposes?—I have not seen them used for generally supplying water. 7820. Do you take any special precautions when you have to lay your wrought-iron tubing amongst ashes or old building material?—No, that work is generally entrusted to labouring men; we do not see every yard of ground; we generally give the wrought- iron tubing a coating of boiled tar, having heated it first. 7821. Do you use any galvanized tubing –No. 7822. Do you believe that to be beneficial —No. I have seen galvanized tubing, and a person told me it would stand anything. I mentioned the subject of ashes to him, and he said, Now these tubes will stand anything. I said, I will put a few bundles up here, and told him to call again in three months. I put them on the top of the purifying house, and when he came again I found them to be as rusty and worse than the others. 7823. (Professor Way.) That was in a gas-house? —Yes; part of the ammonia was flying about. 7824. I suppose you know that of all things to rust iron ammonia is the worst f-Yes. 7825. (Chairman.) Have you had applications made to you by parents to bring their children into the purifying houses when suffering from whooping cough and croup 2–Daily. 7826. Do you admit them —Yes, as many as come ; we sometimes have a score at once there. 7827. Do you think that any beneficial results are worked by it —I do not know. I have never seen anything particular. I am told it does so. Mothers believe in it, and they bring them there daily. A person told me no later than last week that he had one child that had been perfectly cured. 7828. I suppose you would infer that if the puri- fying house is so beneficial for this class of disease, it cannot be very injurious in other cases 2—I think not. We consider our purifiers to be as healthy a set of men as we know. 7829. If they could be restrained in their drinking habits you think they might enjoy as good health as any persons —Yes, I think so. 7830. You do not believe that there is anything injurious in the smell of gas —I do not. 7831. Do you live upon the premises —Yes, I did for many years; I do not now. 7832. You have your offices there 2–Yes. I have a daughter on the premises who is married, and if I thought it was injurious she should not live there. RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 1243 7833. (Professor Way.) How often is the lime changed —Six times in 24 hours at present on each work. 7834. In each purifier * — No ; we have six changes a day; we change six purifying boxes each day at each of the works. 7835. Out of eight 2–0ut of 24 boxes. 7836. How much lime would they represent 2– Perhaps about a ton and a half each box. 7837. Nine tons a day 2–Yes, at this time of the Call". 7838. It would accumulate I suppose very fast if you did not dispose of it 2–Yes, it would at this time of the year. - 7839. The chairman asked you whether you could not cart it away day by day. I suppose six or eight cartloads are a fair quantity to get rid of 2–Yes, and there is more than that. 7840. Is there any difficulty in carting it away?— We should have to pay an additional cost; we can now sell it at a small price; if we were obliged to take it away we should have to pay a little more to have it removed. 7841. (Chairman.) What dividend do you pay ?— Six per cent. - 7842. (Professor Way.) Do the farmers always cart it away when they can spare their carts and horses 2 —Yes. 7843. Do you ever hear complaints made that when used for agriculture it injures the crops?—No. 7844. Do they expose it for some time before they put it on to the land?—They use it in different forms; sometimes they put it on with stubble and floss on grass land ; at other times they mix it up with road scrapings and so put it on. 7845. As a rule they prefer to let it stand in the air and get stale before they use it?—Some do. If I wanted a load I should want it fresh ; if a garden is infested with vermin, slugs, and snails, fresh lime is considered the most powerful agent for destroying them. 7846. If there is any objection made by the farmers that it has injured the land, you would say it is from the want of proper use?—I heard one say the other day that it made the sweetest grass land of any manure, but cattle will not go near to it when it is newly laid on. 7847. You stated that you could not take sulphur out of gas without lime 2—It could be taken out, but I think it would be at a great cost. 7848. Is it the fact that lime is not used at all in some of the gasworks —I do not know any works where lime is not used; where the oxide is used I believe they use a little lime. 7849. Would not iron of itself absorb sulphur P- Yes, it would, but not to that extent that we should require, not perfectly clean. 7850. Have you ever sold any of that material direct for agricultural use, I mean the oxide of iron —No. 7851. Do you know that it is put into manures 2– Yes. - 7852. Do you know also that it has produced great mischief sometimes from being put improperly into manures 2–Yes. 7853. You contract for the supply of the material, and you do not know what becomes of it?—No, we do not. - 7854. Are not the materials that you produce too valuable to be wasted and thrown away?–Yes. 7855. The least valuable is the lime 2–Yes. 7856. The others are the tar and the ammoniacal liquid, and the oxide of iron when it is saturated 2– Yes. 7857. They are far too valuable to be thrown into the river ?—Yes. 7858. What does the tar fetch now 2–About 20s. a ton, 220 gallons to a ton; we retail it out at 2d. a gallon. 7859. It is used for making the aniline colours ?— Yes. 7860. There is no likelihood that the demand for it will diminish, is there?—No, I am not aware that it will ; it is more sought after in London than down here. 7861. If it can be proved that some years ago the makers of gas were polluters of the rivers, you would not admit that they are so now, or that they are likely to become so in future ?–Our refuse is too valuable to go into the river. 7862. Is it not possible that some of the refuse which now injures the river may, if it is obliged to be kept out, be found too valuable to be thrown in for the future ?—Yes. 7863. In the first instance you kept the refuse of the gasworks out of the river, not to make a profit of it, but because you were obliged 2–Yes. 7864. And when it was kept out a use was found for it 2–Yes. 7865. (Chairman.) I suppose that there is not an ounce of material that you do not utilize in one way or the other ?—No, I think not. 7866. Excepting the water in the gasholders ?— Yes. 7867. If you had no repairs to make it never need be changed —No. 7868. What do you do with the ashes that you make on the works?—They are carted away. 7869. How many tons do you make in a year 2– This time of the year we shall make 20 tons in a day at the two works, 7870. From the retort furnaces 2–Yes. 7871. You cannot utilize the ashes 2–No, they are carted away, we pay 6d. a load to have them carted away; they go anywhere ; thousands of tons go down the railway for ballast for the line. 7872. What do you get a ton for the coke – About 7 s. 6d. 7873. What is it used for 2–For various purposes; amongst others, domestic purposes ; we have sold as many as 42 tons in half cwt. bags in one day for cottage property occupied by Irish. 7874. Do they use it in chaſing dishes in their rooms?—No ; it is used in a common grate. 7875. Is it cheaper to them than coal 2–Decidedly, it will burn longer. 7876. Is it used for locomotive purposes?—No, it is not strong enough. The witness withdrew, Mr. WILLIAM HIRST (Leeds) examined. 7877. (Chairman.) You are secretary of the Chamber of Commerce of Leeds 2—Yes. 7878. Have you resided long in Leeds 2—For five years. 7879. I suppose the members of your Chamber of Commerce are in communication with each other throughout the manufacturing districts 2–Yes. 7880. The object of the Chamber of Commerce is to give information to each district as to the raw material and the manufactured goods, is it not ?—No, we do not interfere at all with that; it is to look after the general interests of trade, such as the law affecting trade, banks, and foreign tariffs and regulations abroad as to trade, and anything of that kind, and also the trade of the town generally. 7881. As to the pollution of rivers, does that come within the scope of the operations of the Chamber of Commerce?—No ; it would be our duty undoubtedly to defend our manufacturers from any annoyance on account of the state of the rivers. 7882. If it is the duty of the Chamber of Commerce to defend the manufacturers from annoyance, it would LEEDS. Mr. C. Smith. --- 8 Nov. 1866. Mr. W. Hºrst. -- H h 2 244 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. Mr. W. Hirst. 8 Nov. 1866. be the duty of the Chamber of Commerce, I presume, to facilitate anything that would increase the pro- ductive power in manufactories?–Decidedly so. 7883. Do you know the condition of the rivers and streams throughout Yorkshire and Lancashire : –1 have a pretty good idea of them in both counties. 7884. What condition are they in for trade pur- poses?—They are certainly getting into a bad condition, especially lower down the streams; the Irwell at Manchester is in a very bad condition. Manchester is the extreme point of trade down the valley. It is the same with the Mersey at Stockport—that is in a bad condition ; and in Yorkshire the Aire and Calder are also in a bad condition ; but I think they are scarcely so bad as has been represented—the water is very dirty, but still you find that dyers find it is not un- useable; they find that it still can be used for washing clothes and rags; it is bad, but not so bad as has been represented. 7885. Surely the dyers themselves would be the best judges as to the quality of the water —Decidedly it is bad, but I am speaking of degree. 7886. Is the obstruction of watercourses by the passing in of solids, such as furnace ashes, and solids of other kinds, not liable to injure trade by filling up the beds of rivers?—By polluting the water it does, undoubtedly ; but filling up the bed of the river does not I think affect manufacturers, but merely the district. Mill power may be affected to some extent, but mill power by water is very limited in comparison with the steam power that is used. 7887. A manufacturer has stated that the floor of his mill was liable to be flooded seriously so as to injure the carrying on of his business, because the bed of the river had been raised two or three feet since he built his mill. Would not that be an obstruction to his trade *—Yes, but I never heard of such a complaint. 7888. Another manufacturer, whose entire power depends upon his water wheel, is so backwatered that one third of the power is destroyed because the tail water cannot get away ?—I never heard of that; there is very little water power in this district. 7889. There is another manufacturer who burns 2,000 tons of coal per annum, and pours all the ashes into the river. Is not some regulation required to stop that practice P – Yes; there is no objection to anything that is reasonable, and that can be done at a reasonable expense on the part of the merchants and manufacturers—it should be done; but a great deal more damage than good would come to trade if what was done interfered materially with the trade. 7890. The Chamber of Commerce I suppose is in communication with members of parliament, and watches narrowly any legislative measures that might affect trade, that might either improve it or deteriorate it?—Exactly. 7891. If this Commission should lead to any form of legislation, I assume that the Chamber of Com- merce would make itself acquainted with that form of legislation, and look narrowly to it, in order to see that it was not going to be oppressive to trade :-. Certainly ; it would be one of their principal functions. 7892. Do not you think that the Chamber of Com- merce might also consistently with its function lend some help towards carrying out some beneficial mea- sures —It would do so, no doubt; but it is impossible to give an opinion as to what the Chamber will do until we see what is proposed by Government to be done. 7893. It is not sought to destroy the trade of the country —No ; I am not aware that there is any intention of that kind. 7894. (Professor Way.) There is an intention not to do so?--The Commission, as far as I am aware, is not looked upon with any jealousy whatever. 7895. (Chairman.) Do you know the becks flowing through Leeds 2–Yes. 7896. In what condition are they —They are very foul; the Sheepscar beck is very foul from dye water and tanning and other things, and from linen bleaching. 7897, I suppose that if mechanical or chemical means could be devised to purify that water it would be a very great advantage —A very great advantage. 7898. (Mr. Harrison.) Leeds and Bradford are the centres of a very considerable woollen district, are they not ?–Yes, they have two distinct trades. 7899. They are both connected with wool –Yes, but in two different shapes; one is carded wool and the other is combed wool. One will make cloth and will felt, the other will not felt but will make worsted, and is consequently almost entirely used for ladies' dresses. 7900. Leeds being the seat of the woollen manu- facture and Bradford of the worsted?—Yes. 7901. How would you describe Huddersfield, Hali- fax, and Dewsbury —Huddersfield, Dewsbury, and Leeds carry on a similar trade. There are, of course, specialities; for instance, at Dewsbury they make coatings for top coats a great deal, pilot cloth, and so on. Huddersfield is a great deal in the fancy trowsering way, and also makes cloths. Leeds makes broad cloths and fancy dresses for ladies, fancy woollens and summer coatings, and also fancy coat- ings of various descriptions. At Halifax there is a great woollen trade done, especially in the neighbour- hood of Elland, down the banks of the Calder; but Halifax is much more a stuff market than a woollen market. 7902. What are the seats of woollen manufacture in all its branches, whether woollen or worsted, in other parts of England 2–There is a worsted manufactory at Norwich, a little is done at Wakefield, but not much I think. The woollen manufacture in England is at Kendal and in this district in Yorkshire, and a good deal is done at Bury in Lancashire in coarse woollens. The flannel manufacture is done in Rochdale and in North Wales; then there is the west of England, Wiltshire, and part of Somersetshire and Gloucester- shire, and I think a little is done at Exeter. These are the only districts connected with the woollen trade that I am aware of. 7903. What quantity of wool is now imported into England altogether ?—I have not brought that in- formation with me; I can furnish it to you if you wish it. - 7904. Could you give it to us for a number of years past, so as to show the gradual increase in the impor- tation ?—I could ; in fact every year there is a return of all the imports and exports. I could not give it to you for the last year yet; I shall get it about January. Nearly all which is used here is imported ; that used at Bradford is nearly all grown in England. 7905. Could you give us the quantity which is used in this neighbourhood within the Yorkshire woollen district?—No ; I could make a guess at it. 7906. Could you give it to us pretty closely 2–1 could not give it to you very closely. A great deal of wool comes to this neighbourhood which is sold into other neighbourhoods ; this has always been a great wholesale market for wool. This wool is bought in Germany and Gibraltar and London, and is prin- cipally sold in the neighbourhood, but a great deal is sold out of the neighbourhood. 7907. (Chairman.) Then the aggregate imported into England would be no test of the extent of the manufacture in this neighbourhood —The woollen trade here I should think has increased as much as anywhere, except in Batley and Dewsbury, but there there is a great deal of shoddy, but it has not increased so fast as other trades have. 7908. (Mr. Harrison.) Shoddy is made from woollen rags and waste —Yes. 7909. Can you give us the quantity of woollen rags imported into England year by year –Yes, for a few years back. 7910. Is there any large shoddy manufacture exist- ing in this neighbourhood —There is not much here ; a little mungo is used. 7911. Where is it manufactured 2–It is made all over the district ; it is made here, and it is made in Dewsbury and Batley to a very great extent, and it is RIVERS COMMISSION:-—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 245 also made about Huddersfield. these districts. 7912. Have you any means of ascertaining the quantity of English grown wool –Yesterday evening I was at a meeting with the president of the Associated Chambers of Commerce, that is an association of all the chambers of commerce which meets in London, and that question was gone into ; but until the last six months there was no means of knowing that fact, it was merely guessed at, but the guess appears to be tolerably near the mark, because from the returns for the cattle plague we now know the number of the sheep in London pretty approximately, and by taking each county we can form a pretty good idea of the weight of fleece. It is about 152,000,000 lbs. 7913. Can you give us the weight which has been used for some years past —Bradford is much more interested in it than we are. We do not use much English wool, and have not done so for some years past. 7914. Do you think that there has been any con- siderable increase in the quantity of wool in England —We have no statistics upon that point, but I do not fancy that the increase has been very great, because for many years at Bradford there have been great complaints of the scarcity of raw material. In fact some attempts have been made to increase it if possible. 7915. Have you any similar information as to the hides imported into this neighbourhood 2–I was present when Mr. Tatham was giving his evidence. Several months ago the quantity was estimated at about 52,000 a week, and I think that that is about a fair estimate. 7916. That is the quantity used in this neighbour- hood —Yes; it is I suppose the largest tanning place in the empire. 7917. How is that as compared with the total – The hides are not all imported. For instance, com- It is imported by all paratively few sheep hides are imported. A large number of sheep's hides are produced in the country. We have had no agricultural statistics till lately. The farmers I believe generally objected to giving these statistics, and it is only the cattle plague which has brought them out. Besides the hides produced in the country a great quantity come from South America, but this trade has been principally in the East Indian hides, what we call kips. I will consult some of the tanners upon that point. 7918. From what countries is woolchiefly imported 2 —Principally from Australia and the Cape, and a little from Germany. 7919. Can you particularize places when you make out the return of the quantity ?–Yes. As to German wool, I can only state what is imported into England, and I think that the great bulk of it goes into the west of England. Long within my recollection we were altogether dependent upon Germany and Spain. I include in Germany Hungary and Poland, but now the amount so imported is little I believe compared with the amount from Australia and the Cape. We also import here a considerable quantity of Brazilian wools which are used for felt carpets, but there is only one house in that trade here. 7920. Have you any facts as to the importation of alpaca and mohair 2–We do not use any of it here at all; that is entirely a Bradford trade. 7921. Have you any further observations to offer 2 —I was talking about fish in the river. It is only three years ago that I saw a man catch 14 or 15 dace. In the last three years I have seen fish caught by fly fishing. The river is bad, but you may make it out worse than it really is. 7922. (Professor Way.) And it is probable that it will be made worse if things go on as they are going 2 —It is getting bad and no doubt something wants to be done. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 10 o'clock. Leeds, Friday, 9th November 1866, PRESENT : ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THORNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Professor John THOMAS WAY. Mr. STEPHEN Todd Holroyd (Leeds) examined. 7923. (Chairman). Are you in partnership with your father ?—Yes. 7924. Do you carry on dyeing on Sheepscar Beck? Yes, stuff dyeing. - 7925. Where is the stuff manufactured 2–In Hali- fax and Bradford. 7926. They send it to you to be dyed 2–Yes. 7927. How many hands do you employ —About 130. 7928. What advantages have you in Sheepscar Beck over the people at Halifax and Bradford who send their goods that distance to be dyed 2–None at all that I know of. It happens that we are the oldest firm in the trade. 7929. Where do you get water from ?—From the Gipton Beck. - 7930. What quantity of water do you use in your processes in a day ?—About 200,000 gallons. 7931. What weight of stuff do you dye per day or per week —I have no idea, 7932. Is the water that comes from that beck pretty pure?—Yes. 7933. Are there no mills or manufactories upon it 2 —None at all. 7934. Are you situated near the junction of it with the Sheepscar Beck 2–Yes, 7935. Have other manufacturers power to take that water besides yourselves –No. 7936. If manufactories were to be erected upon that beck above you how would you be situated 2–We should have either to obtain an injunction to stop them, or to stop the dyeworks. 7937. Do you think that if manufactories were established there it would be an injury to you to such an extent as to justify you in applying for an injunc- tion ?—Certainly. 7938. At what cost could you replace those 200,000 gallons a day if you were debarred from getting them from that beck —If we had to get it from the town we must pay 6d. per 1,000 gallons, and if we bored for water the expense would be several thousands of pounds. 7939. If you were to obtain it from the water company it would cost you 5l. a day ?–Yes. 7940. Or 1,500ſ, a year – Yes. 7941. That beck is worth to you from 1,000l. to 1,500l. a year –Yes. - 7942. Do you know the cohdition of the river Aire and of the Sheepscar Beck itself —I have not had anything to do with the Aire. 7943. But you know the condition of it 2–Yes. 7944. In what condition are the waters of the Aire and of the Sheepscar Beck Are they in a satisfactory LEEDS. Mr. W. Hirst. 8 Nov. 1866. Mr. S. T. Holroyd. 9 Nov. 1866. H in 3 246 RIVERS COMMISSION: -MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. Mr. S. T. Holroyd. 9 Nov. 1866. condition or suitable for purposes of dyeing *-Cer- tainly not. - 7945. You would not have manufacturers at Halifax and Bradford sending goods to you to be dyed if you took water from the Sheepscar Beck?—No ; we could not carry on the business at all if we used that. 7946. Could you if you were situated on the Aire?— No. 7947. What is done with the refuse from your dye- works 2–It is turned into the Sheepscar Beck. 7948. Has there been no injunction obtained against you for doing it 2–No ; our works have been there since 1780, there were few mills or factories below us than existed when the works were established. 7949. Do you dye the goods by weight or by the piece 2–By the piece—the stuff goods. 7950. Are those pieces of different lengths and widths 2–Yes. 7951. According to their lengths and widths you are paid, I suppose 2–Yes. 7952. And according to the character of the dye that you use 2–Yes. 7953. How much do the pieces vary in weight – From 10 lbs. up to 60 lbs. or 70 lbs. 7954. How many pieces may you dye in a year – We dye upon an average 3,000 a week, but we vary a good deal. - 7955. At what would you put the average weight of those pieces?—I do not know, they vary so. They vary according to the seasons and the demand ; some- times we have most of one kind of pieces and some- times most of another. I have no correct idea. 7.956. Are the majority of the pieces of the heavier or the lighter kind?—The heavier ; most of them are furniture goods, damasks and reps. 7957. And they run to about what weight —From 20 lbs. to 30 lbs., and upwards. 7958. What do you do with the dyewoods that you use; I mean the refuse ?—That goes into the beck. 7959. Have you ever utilized it by burning it?— No ; it is rasped, not chipped; we could not get it out of the water, it runs off with the water. 7960. You could by screening, could you not?— Yes. We only use about 100 tons a year of wood, we use more of cochineal. 7961. (Professor Way.) Is the wood principally at the bottom or the top of the vat 2–At the bottom. 7962. It is heavier than the water –Yes. 7963. What are the colours that you principally dye 2–Crimsons and greens. 7964. What materials generally do you use for: crimson 2–Cochineal. 7965. You do not use aniline dyes —To a slight extent we do, but they are so fugitive that they do not answer for the kind of furniture goods we dye. 7966. That objection has not been got over in the case of the aniline dyes?—No. 7967. It was the first objection started as to them 15 years ago?—Yes. 7968. They will not bear the light, I believe 2–No. 7969. The crimsons then are produced by cochineal principally, and the greens by what *—By extract of indigo and fustic extract. 7970. You do not use many chemical materials; you do not dye a variety of colours?—Not to a great extent. 7971. They are principally shades of crimson and of green 2–Yes. 7.972. Fustic is a wood is it not ?–Yes, and be- sides that, there is logwood and Nicaragua wood. 7973. Those are rasped are they not ?–Yes. 7974. To what size are they rasped ; if you take up a heap of the rasped wood, would the liquid run through your fingers?—It is like sawdust. 7975. Would there be any difficulty in straining the liquid through a wire sieve, so as to keep back the solid stuff?—We might do it, I suppose. 7976. Is the quantity of the solid stuff which is discharged from your vats in the course of a week large P-No, we only use about 120 tons of all sorts of wood in a year. 7977. You have a large number of dye vats, can you form any nôtion of the quantity of water you use in absolute dyeing –No. 7978. How often are the vats emptied ?–Some- times twice a day, but generally once. They are not vats, we do not call them vats; vats are used for dyeing indigo blues. Some of them are made of lead with copper bottoms, and some are made of block tin with copper bottoms, and there are also stone cisterns. 7979. What are they called?—We call them leads when they are made of lead, and kettles when they are made of block tin. 7980, What do they call those made of stone *- They call them cisterns. 7981. Can you form any notion as to how many of each kind of vessels you have ; how many leads, for instance 2–We have about 10 leads, 6 kettles, and 6 dyeing cisterns. 7982. Are they all of one size?—No, of various sizes. 7983. What is the size of the smallest ?—I have no idea of the capacity of them. 7984. Can you state the size judging by the eye – The smallest would be about three feet by four. 7985. Then the largest, are they twice that size 2– They have three or four times the capacity. 7986. How many of them do you think there are 2 —About 10 altogether. 7987. Is there as much capacity in the kettles and in the cisterns —No, we have not quite so many kettles. 7988. They are not so large —Some of them are quite as large, and some are smaller. The stone cis- terns are larger than either, but they are square; they will be about, I think, five feet deep, and perhaps as much in diameter. 7989. Five feet each way and five feet deep?—Yes, I think so. 7990. You say that those are emptied, according to circumstances, once or twice a day?—Yes. 7991. I suppose the liquid runs straight into the Sheepscar Beck 2–Yes. 7992. The goods have to be washed, I suppose 2– Yes. 7993. I suppose the remainder of the water re- quired to make up the 200,000 gallons would consist partly of condensed water for the engines and partly of the water used for washing 2–Yes. 7994. So that if we could form a notion of how much you used in your leads and your kettles we should also ascertain how much was used for washing 2–Yes. 7995. Does the wash water go out much disco- loured 2–No not very much ; at first it does, but not subsequently. 7996. Towards the latter part of the process, I sup- pose, the water gets very clear indeed 2–Yes. 7.997. You wash scrupulously up to the last point 2 —Yes. 7998. You stated just now that the water of the Aire or the water of the Sheepscar Beck would not do for your goods at all, either for the dyeing part of the process, or the washing —Neither. 7999. What would be the effect of it upon the wash- ing 2–It would change the colours. 8000. Would that be in consequence of the dirt settling on the cloth —Yes, it would be partly from that, and partly from the acid or the alkaline character of the water. 8001. It might be partly from the mechanical and partly from the chemical action ?–Yes. 8002. Suppose there was no chemical property in the water, neither alkali nor acid, would the dirt in that water be objectionable?—I should say so; it would destroy the brightness of the colours. 8003. Supposing that the river could be so dealt with, that without being as pure as at its sources it was bright and free from that dark colour, and free from objectionable acid or alkali, do you think that the circumstance of its being a little hard, or not so RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 247 pure as pure water, would prevent its being used for some part of your processes?—No ; it might be used for some purposes. - 8004. The great difficulty lies, in fact, in its dirti- ness?—Yes; I should say so. - 8005. You happen to have tolerably good water —Yes. - 8006. Would it be a great advantage to others to have water that was moderately pure ?—Yes; certainly. 8007. And to the trade generally P-Yes; we do not come much into competition with the Leeds dyers; we dye a different class of goods. 8008. (Chairman.) Are they dyers chiefly of cloth * —No ; there are both cloth and stuff dyers, but they dye a different kind of goods, principally dress goods. 8009. (Professor Way.) If you exchanged with them goods to be dyed you could dye theirs readily, but could they dye yours ?–No; not with the river Water. - - 8010. You could dye theirs, because pure water is not objectionable for dyeing 2–Yes. 8011. I suppose, considering the delicate colours you dye, you would not have maintained that trade if you had not had pure water P-No. 8012. You would have drifted, perhaps, into a different set of colours ?–Most likely. 8013. You were asked just now how it happened that the Bradford people sent their goods to you to be dyed; how is that 2–In the first place we were dyers before there were any goods made in Bradford of that class; my grandfather, I believe, was the first to introduce the stuff dyeing trade into this part of the country. - 8014. If they could dye equally well at Bradford, and skilled labour could be obtained there, do you think they would not attempt to do it, if they could dye your colours at Bradford —They do dye a good deal of the same class of colours that we do, but still we can maintain our trade, and get rather a better price than they can. 8015. Is that from your name, or the quality of the goods?—The quality of the goods. 8016. Is the difference in the quality of the goods in any way attributable to the Bradford people not having such good water as you have –Partly so, and partly for this reason, that I do not think they give such good colours; they do not, perhaps, go to the expense; they make more profit out of the trade. 8017. Is good water obtainable readily at Brad- ford 2–I believe not, except by boring. 8018. Not in the streams ?–No. 8019. Nor except by the water company’s supply —No. 8020. (Chairman.) According to a map I have here, Mr. Fleming's geological map of Yorkshire, the becks from which you take the water appear to rise and pass over a coal formation. Is that the case ?— I do not know—no, I should say not; there is very little coal obtained where the Gipton Beck runs; it is just at the outskirts. 8021. Is any coal obtained from there?—Yes. 8022. Are those collieries in work now 2–Yes. 8023. Are there any old ones near the beck 2–No. 8024. Do those collieries send any water into the beck —One does. 8025. What is its quality?—That is very good ; it kept our works going almost all last summer. 8026. Do you know the seam of coal they are working 2—I believe it is the Lowmoor bed. 8027. Are you aware that from some of the beds they derive very good and useful water, but from others the water is injurious?—No ; I am not aware of that. 8028. Have you ascertained the quality of the water you obtained; have you had it analysed ?–No. 8029. Is it soft water 2–Moderately; it is not so soft as the water in the Sheepscar Beck. 8030. The Sheepscar Beck rises in the millstone grit does it not, to a considerable extent, and, as you say, the probability is that the water would be really softer in the Sheepscar Beck 2–It is said that the Sheepscar Beck water is the best in the borough for boilers. 8031. In dyeing very bright colours, do you find that the smoke of Leeds effects you at all —No ; I do not know that it does, except the Smuts that fall occasionally. 8032. Do they fall occasionally on your cloth when you are dyeing 2—Yes. 8038. Is that injurious to the cloth 2–We can avoid it by taking care and covering the pieces up. 8034. (Professor Way.) Is it in the dye-house or in the transit of the goods, when the goods are coming out, that you get the smuts 2–It is in the transit generally. - - 8035. The smuts do not fall in such a quantity into the beck or about the premises as to injure the water —No. We used to be able to dry the goods and also to cool them, (they have to be cooled in certain pro- cesses; they are laid down to get a little damp) but we cannot do that now. We do that upon the premises in covered places. We used to lay them on the grass. 8036. Do you use steam power to any great extent * —Yes. 8037. Of how many horse power –Between 20 and 30. It is one of the first engines that was put up in Yorkshire. 8038. What quantity of coal do you consume per annum ?–20 tons a day. 8039. What quantity of ashes do you use 2–1 have no idea. 8040. What becomes of them?—They are taken away for the roads. 8041. Do you find no difficulty in getting rid of them 2–No, we pay 24, a load. 8042. You do not turn them into the beck 2–No. We give the men who fetch them 2d. for drinking, and they take them away. 8043. Have you any spare space in your mill. Have you a yard attached to the mill?—Yes, both a yard, a field, a garden, and a reservoir. 8044. Supposing it was suggested that anything should be done with the waste dye water before it is discharged into the Sheepscar Beck, would you have space for small tanks for the treatment of it For instance, have you got 100 square feet or yards unemployed at this moment 2–We have nearly that space, but it would necessitate putting a new drain down, because the liquid now falls into the beck at various points. 8045. You are not circumscribed for room 2–No, not particularly. - 8046. Supposing that for a moderate expense you could purify the liquids that you now throw into the Sheepscar Beck, and that one rule was to be applied to all dyers and polluters of the river alike, so that the river generally would be in a very different state to what it is now, would you think it was right and fair that you should be asked to expend a small sum annually in purifying the water used on your premises before discharging it into the beck?–If everybody was placed on the same footing it would not make much difference except that we have to compete with foreign dyers. 8047. You get pure water and you believe you have power to prevent anybody from making it impure ?–Yes. 8048. You are therefore exceptionally situated ; there may not be another dyer so well situated. I suppose you would feel that it was not right that you, having accidentally good water, should help to make the water bad for the other dyers ?—No. 8049. You would have no right to be exempted from any rule that might be laid down 2–No. 8050. If every man was called upon to purify the water, every man would get the pure water that his neighbour had purified in return for the expense he had been put to, but you would get it without expense ?–Yes. 8051. Therefore you may form an impartial opinion as to what might be the state of things if it were possible at a moderate expense to purify the water. LEEDS. Mr. S. T. Holroyd. 9 Nov. 1866. H h 4 248 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, T.EEDS. Mr. S. 7. Holroyd. 9 Nov. 1866, Mr. C. L. Dresser, C. E. Do you not think that some reasonable measure should be made incumbent upon all manufacturers alike *-I do not know why it should not. We have to compete with the French dyers principally, and we are just beginning to find that in consequence of the increase in the wages, and the increase in the price of coals, and various increases in expenditure, we are at disadvan- tage, and we fear that part of the trade may leave us and go to France. 8052. (Mr. Harrison.) During the inquiry at Wakefield we found that the dyeing operations had been removed from Wakefield to a considerable extent in the course of many years. Do you know that to be the fact P−Yes. 8053. That was consequent in some measure upon the pollution of the river Calder. Has there been any such effect produced by the condition of the river Aire at Leeds, and has that been the cause of the removal of the dye works?—I believe not. 8054. Is there as much dyeing carried on now as there ever was 2—Yes; only that it is in fewer hands. 8055. Is it of a different character from what the dyeing was in former years?—Partly it is. In the stuff trade it is partly so. 8056. Are the colours that are dyed, excepting your own, as bright colours as they used to be, or are they darker colours which do not require such pure water P —They dye light colours yet, but they have to use either the town's water or bore-hole water. 8057. You say that you are obliged now to dry your stuff within the house instead of exposing it, as formerly, upon the grass?–Yes. 8058. Are you put to any expense for that purpose —Yes; only that out of doors we could not dry the quantity that we do now, even if it were possible to dry the stuff on the grass. 8059. What is the expense in coal that you are put to annually for drying –I cannot tell, because we dry by steam. We have drying machines with steam cylinders connected with the boilers. 8060. Is any considerable quantity of the coal you mentioned that you use weekly used for the purpose of drying your stuffs —No ; no considerable quantity. —The quantity of water in the Sheepscar Beck is very much reduced to what it used to be. 8061. From what cause is that ?—I believe that when the waterworks were established part of the streams were taken to the Eccup reservoir. (Mr. Filliter.) I believe that is not the case. 8062. (To witness.) Have not the manufacturers on the Sheepscar Beck a reservoir of their own 2– At Addle there is one. I do not know to whom it belongs. 8063. Under whose management is it 2–Nobody's that I know of. 8064. How is it worked ?–It is not worked at all, I believe. - 8065. How does the water get out of it?—It runs out. 8066. It is merely a leak, I suppose?—That is all, I believe. (Mr. Filliter.) It is worked, but I do not know by whose authority. It is now full. Occasionally it is empty; but I cannot tell under whose authority it 1S. - (The witness.) Some years ago it was proposed to clean out that Addle Dam by Mr. Eddison. I believe he intended to go to Parliament. He intended to maintain it in working order and to tax the owners on the beck for it, but he was opposed by the mill- owners on the beck successfully. 8067. What was their ground of opposition ? — I forget. 8068. Would it not be a desirable thing for the millowners to have that as a kind of compensation reservoir P-Yes; but at that time we did not want to be taxed for it. 8069. Are you aware that they place considerable value upon the water of the Sheepscar Beck as water power –Yes. 8070. What reason have you for saying that is diminished 2–Because 20 years ago we washed all the goods in the beck; they were thrown into the beck, and the lengths floated down, and even if the water was pure now, we could not do that ; there is not water to float the pieces down. 8071. Are there many manufacturers between your mills and the upper part of the Sheepscar Beck?— Yes, a good many now. - 8072. Do those manufacturers take water from the beck for engine and dyeing purposes —Yes. 8073. During those operations would not a great deal of that water be evaporated ?–Yes, it might be ; at the same time there are many bore-holes that throw their water in. The manufacturers use more water than they get out of the beck, and they throw the refuse water into the beck. I believe also that in carrying out sewerage they have turned several little springs into the sewers. 8074. Have you any water power on the Sheepscar Beck —No. I do not think that anything we turn in would be prejudicial to the health of the inhabitants on the beck, the water being impure before it comes to us; the quantity of acids and alum and chloride of lime that we throw in would perhaps have a neu- tralizing effect rather than otherwise. I do not say that if the water was pure what we turn in would not spoil it. 8075. Have you not waterclosets on the premises for the use of the men you employ —No waterclosets —common privies. 8076. Where are they situated; over the beck 2– No, they are not far from the beck, but we take all the soil up to our farm. 8077. You have it carted away regularly 2–Yes. 8078. (Chairman.) Do you know whether the land above you has been drained within the last 20 years ? —I should say that it has been about Addle. 8079. Would that have any effect in diminishing the summer flow in the beck 2–I do not know. The witness withdrew. Mr. CHRISTOPHER LEEFE DRESSER, C.E. (Headingley), examined. 8080. (Chairman.) Where do you reside —I have just left Swillington, which is about seven miles down the river, to come to Headingley. I had lived three years at Swillington on the Lower Aire. 8081. Have you been engaged professionally in this district 2—I have been living there. 8082. Have you been engaged on the works here 2 —No ; but I have made several experiments. 8083. You are a civil engineer and a Fellow of the Chemical Society in London —Yes. 8084. How long have you known the river Aire * —For 30 years. - 8085. In what condition do you find it now as compared with what it was 30 years ago?—It is very much altered indeed, 8086. In what way ?—It is altered in its appearance and it is altered in its character; altogether, as regards the smell and thickness and look of the water ; in short in every way. 8087. Have you analysed the waters at all?—I have not analysed the water of the river, but I have analysed a great many waters about in this district. What I principally wish to call attention to is the con- dition of the river at Swillington Bridge, which is below the point where the drain enters the river. 8088. You mean the main sewer of Leeds —Yes. 8089. Did you know the river before the main sewer was constructed 2–I did. 8090. Have you examined the condition of the river since the construction of the sewer –Yes, repeatedly. 8091. What is the difference between the state of RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 249 the river before that sewer was constructed, and its condition now 2–Before the drain was made all down the banks where I had been accustomed to pass twice a day the water was clear, and they used to catch fish all the way down, but now the condition of the river at Swillington Bridge is so opaque that you cannot see two or three inches into it, and the offensive smell both from the dye wares and from the sewer is in summer time so bad that I have frequently had to put my handkerchief to my mouth when crossing the bridge. 8092. Do you think that the sewage or the other forms of pollution are accountable for killing the fish : —I do not think that the sewage is accountable for it, and I will give you a reason. I have been im- proving a town further down the river for the late Lord Palmerston—Fairburn,-draining it, and we have run a drain into a large open cut, which drains the land, but at the bottom of the drain we have a settling pond; we allow the water to settle first, and then it is run from the settling pond into the cut, which con- tains clear water. It runs in thick and comes out quite clear, and it has not affected the fish in the cut at all. It has only been done recently and the fish are as lively as ever, and I have noticed that just at the mouth of the drain where it runs into the cut an enormous increase in aquatic life, for shell- fish have multiplied to such an extent as almost to stop up the other drain. 8093. (Mr. Harrison.) How long is it since that work was executed 2–Scarcely 12 months. 8094. Within that period could you judge of the effect 2–The sewage is decomposing continually. I find that by the large quantity of gas that bubbles up in the settling pond. - 8095. Do you find that it bubbles up in the settling pond and raises masses of black foetid matter?—I do not think there has been time for the black matter to form at the bottom. - 8096. When you get to that condition of things and there is a large depositfermenting, the gases may have a different effect P−Yes. - - 8097. Sewage when fresh may be food for fishes, but sewage when decomposed and fermenting may be their death –It is quite possible, but the work has been done too recently to be able to give an opinion : of course, it is a very different form of sewage from the sewage of Leeds. 8098. How long is it since the sewer from Leeds was completed 2–I cannot say, I think nearly a dozen years. (Mr. Filliter.) About 14 years, I believe. 8099. (To the witness.) Did you know the river at that time —Yes, intimately. 8100. Was the effect produced upon the river imme- diately after the execution of the sewer, or has the mischievous effect been cumulative –I think it has been cumulative, and the dye matter has been con tinually cumulative. - 8101. Are you aware that a large portion of the borough of Leeds is not thoroughly sewered, that cess- pools are frequent, and that there is not a system of sewerage thoroughly carried out 2–No. I do not think cesspools are very numerous in Leeds. I have had a great deal to do with sewering part of the to Wn. - 8102. With an increase of sewage matter thrown in, what will be the effect upon the river below 2–I think it must continue to be disastrous; the effect at present is very bad indeed, so bad that I think in time, if the whole of the sewage of the borough is taken into the main sewers, it will breed miasma, and probably cause fever all round the river side. I know that at Swil- lington Bridge and thereabouts it is very much com- plained about. 8103. What towns and villages are situated upon the banks of the river below Leeds that would be affected by this condition of the river ?–There is Methley. 8104. What number of inhabitants are there in Methley —I cannot say; it is a considerable town. 17159.-2, 8105. Is it close upon the banks of the river ?–Yes, it is within a few hundred yards, then comes Castleford. 8106. What is the population of Castleford 2–I really cannot say ; it has been increasing so rapidly of late. 8.107. Is it one of the Yorkshire towns which is rapidly on the increase ?—Yes; from this cause, that it has become the centre of the glass-bottle trade. 8108. Are there any collieries in the immediate neighbourhood —Only one that I know of, and that is just commencing; it has scarcely got to work yet, there are others between that and Wakefield, a good many, within a few miles. 8109. Is this bottle trade likely to give rise to a considerable population ?–It has given rise to a very large population. 8110. And an increasing one —Yes. 8111. Do you think that Castleford will be inju- riously affected by the state of the river?—It is situated immediately on the banks, but the Aire receives the Calder before it reaches Castleford. 8112. They unite close to Castleford, do they not * —Just about there. I have experimented on the outlet of the Leeds drain a good deal. I have fre- quently passed it, and I wished to see whether the gases really emanated from the drain, or did not. I have frequently hung a feather by a slight thread across the mouth of the drain, and observed the effects. I have done that, I should think, a dozen times in all the different states of the atmosphere and the wind. The drain empties itself in an easterly direction, and I have found that whenever the wind has been in an easterly direction the feather has been invariably drawn into the mouth of the drain. When the wind has been northwardly or westwardly, the reverse has been the case; when the feather has been drawn into the drain there has been no smell whatever from the drain, none except merely from the water that was running ; but in the other case it is almost impossible to get near the drain, the effluvium is so strong, almost beyond endurance. 8113. When the wind is in the east that effluvium would be driven up the drain –Yes, that is of course the inference, and then all the noxious gases are emanating into the town. 8114. According to the strength of the wind so would be the pressure ?–Yes, I have frequently noticed when there has been a calm that there has been neither an inlet nor an outlet, but a complete stagnation at the mouth of the drain. 8115. These gases would be still forming within the drain –Yes, because immediately the sewage comes out of the drain they are bubbling—I could see them bubbling inside the drain by looking up. 8116. So that the drain is a large gasometer of a certain kind 2–1 have no doubt that that must be the case in certain states of the weather. 8117. Are there outlets for that gas —I am afraid that outlets exist that are scarcely suspected. I have had a good deal to do with valuing cottage property in the borough, and I have frequently found the trap from the sink loose and pulled up to let a larger quantity of water flow down. That is to a certain extent a reason why, amongst other causes, I think the gas gets into the town. It is possible, I think, that in the higher parts of the town the pressure of the gas during a strong easterly wind may be so great as to bubble through water. 8118. Have you perceived gases rising from the sinks you have mentioned 2–Yes. 8119. Have you ever examined the character of those gases —No, I have not, but being accustomed to chemical matters I can say generally what they al’e. 8120. Do you know that water will surcharge itself with gas, and that the gas will then be transmitted almost as if there was no intervening water 9–Yes. 8121. That a water-trap may be a delusion and a snare 2–I believe it is often so. 8122. If you had a drain highly charged with noxious gases, the water may take them in below and I i LEEDS. Mr. C. L. Dresser, C.E. 9 Nov. 1866. - 250- RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. give them out from the surface?-Yes, the water will absorb a large quantity, and will then absorb no more, and if there is pressure going on, the gas will emanate at the surface. 81.23. (Professor Way.) There is a law of diffusion which makes the gas escape into the air, even though it has to pass through water –Yes; the gases that are generated in sewers are of a light character, and have a tendency to rise. - *8124. (Mr. Harrison.) That shows the importance of carrying out a system of ventilation, does it not *- Yes; I have frequently written in the Leeds Press advocating a thorough ventilation of the drains; but I am sorry to say that outsiders very rarely have any attention paid to their wishes. 8125. Have you seen any means of ventilation car- ried out in any case ?–No. The plan I recommended was to construct in the higher parts of the town some chimnies, and to place in them a coke fire that could have no chance of receiving air except what it drew from the drains, and keep the fire continually burning. If the air is passed through a fire all the noxious qualities of the gases will be, I think, decom- posed. When the barometer is lowering I think the escape of gas will be in the lower part of the town. 8126. (Chairman.) If you have a plan of the borough of Leeds before you with the Leeds sewers upon it you will see that by intervening shafts and flat valves you could break the system of sewers into as many sections as you thought proper, and compel the gases to come out at such points as you required —Yes; that is the plan I am carrying out. 8127. You would thus be master of the position ?— Yes, except in certain barometrical states of the atmosphere. 8128. And there you would operate by a shaft — Yes, with a fire in it that could draw no air whatever except from the drain. 8129. Are you aware that if you have a vertical shaft there is always a current up it *—I am afraid my experience does not carry me to that extent. I have been engaged very extensively in mining opera- tions, and we have shafts for ventilating in that way, and we find that sometimes there is a current the other way—a downward current. 8130. If there is any downward current into the mine there must be a corresponding emission of air at some point or condensation going on 2–It always looks as if there was condensation going on, for this reason, that when we find the air in that state the men cannot get into the mine; there is such an accumulation of carbonic acid in the mines then that the men are driven out. 8131. There are states of the atmosphere when there is no tendency to motion ?–Yes, certainly, not upwards. 8132. Have you been in the Tropics?—I have been in Africa. - . . 8133. Have you ever lived where it is necessary to use a punka?—I have been in Africa. I believe that is used in India. 8134. In the same way in this country you may want something to produce motion in the air 2–Yes. 8135. Do you believe that change of air is apparently more necessary than purity ; in other words, that an impure stagnant atmosphere may kill, but an impure atmosphere in motion may do very little injury –I can quite conceive that. 8136. Therefore, whenever the atmosphere is in that stagnant condition the evil effects are most to be dreaded ?–Yes. 8137. Are you aware that the Registrar General lays it down as one of the principal ingredients in an outbreak of cholera, that there will be found a still atmosphere?—I understand that that is the general impression. I know that means have been resorted to to move the atmosphere. 8138. (Mr. Harrison.) Did you say that you had been connected as engineer with lead mines 2–Yes, large ones. 8139, Are there many lead mines within the basin of the Aire and Calder –There is a large one above Bradford belonging to the Duke of Devonshire, that is called Cononley Mine, and it is in the millstone grit formation in the basin of the Aire. 8140. Are you mining engineer to some lead mines in the valley of the Nidd 2–1 was for several years. 8141. What are the pollutions that arise from lead mines?—It depends a good deal upon the strata in which the lead mines are worked; if the veins are in the millstone grit the lead ore is largely mixed with coke or sulphate of barites, and that in order to get the lead out is ground to powder and washed, and the pul- verised barites is taken up by the stream and floated away. That gives a very strong colour to the stream for a great distance, and I believe it to be very poison- ous, I mean the sulphate of barites. We find that when cattle drink such water it has the effect of poisoning them. - 8142. (Professor Way.) Is the sulphate of barites roasted 2–It is sometimes burnt. 8143. With fuel?—Yes; and that would change its character; as a rule, it is merely crushed. 8144. Do you think that sulphate of barites is poisonous 3–Yes; I am merely speaking from ex- perience. 8145. Do you think there is some lead in it 2–It is very heavy, there may be arsenic in it ; I have no doubt there is. We take all the pains we can to keep the lead back by settling ponds. - 8146. (Mr. Harrison.) In the cases in which you have experienced the poisonous effects, has it been where there has been no roasting but simply crushing? —Yes, no roasting, but simply grinding. 8147. There is a large quantity of water used I believe in the process of separating the lead ore?—Yes. 8148. And you take great pains to separate as much of the ore as possible?—That is so. 81.49. Can you recommend any means by which the water which is polluted, and contains arsenic and barites, may be prevented from passing down the river and becoming injurious 2–By settling ponds the evil would be avoided to a great extent. 8.150. In time do you think that the greater portion of the matter would subside and be no longer passed on injuriously —That is my experience, I have found it so. 8151. Have you had, in any case, injunctions brought against you for passing that water down the river ?–No, because the becks on which I have operated have been used for washing for so many years that it has become a known fact and no person opposes it. 8152. Have those becks fish in them — Nome. 8153. For what distance down do you find that the lead mines have destroyed the fish —For four or five miles down. There is a beck near one of the mines which runs about five miles before it enters into the Nidd, a side beck, and there are no fish whatever in that beck, but there are fish in the Nidd. 8154. Was the pollution from the beck sufficient to destroy the fish in the Nidd –Yes; it had a very strong effect in the river; above where the beck entered fish were in abundance but below they were scarce indeed. - 8155. In that case had the water passed from subsiding ponds —No. - 8156. In cases where you have had subsiding ponds have you found the water equally destructive to the fish 2–I have not made that observation ; the water is clearer, it has lost its sediment to a great extent. 8157. Is there any difficulty in carrying that water back for the purposes of rewashing the ore ?–That is a matter of pumping, of course. The quantity used is very large, and to have to pump it would be considered, I am afraid, an impediment. 8158. Can you give us the quantity of water that is used in washing a certain quantity of ore ?–No, it is very various with different operators, some use less and some more. - 8159. You are not now a mining agent —No. 8160, You have not made any observations your- -ºil RIVERS COMMISSION:—MHNUTES OF EVIDENCE, 251. self –Not as to the quantity of water used. In summer time we have been stopped for want of water. 8161. Did you take any steps to pump back the water that you were using 2–No. When we found that we were short of water we set to work to make reservoirs above. We had some extensive wet moors with water in them and we made reservoirs on them and so stored the water. 8162. After the ore was washed was it sent away in the shape of ore or was it manufactured into pig-lead 2 —It was smelted into pig-lead. 8163. In the operation of refining is any refuse carried into the rivers, polluting them?—No, I do not think we carried in any at all. We used the refuse for mending the roads; it was worked up pretty well because a certain portion of the lead adheres very tenaciously to the refuse; it is smelted over and over again until there is not much left. - 8164. Are long chimneys used for deposit of the lead as the fumes pass out 2–Yes, we had one which I think was above a mile in length. 8165. In what form is lead deposited in those chimneys?—They call it soot, it is lead in a very com- minuted state. 8166. What is done with that 2–Re-smelted and turned into lead again. The chimneys are swept out occasionally and sometimes they are flushed out with water, and the soot is collected and re-smelted. 8167. From none of those processes is any pollution sent into the river ?–Not from that process. 8168. Nor from any refining process –There is none carried on in that neighbourhood, there is very little silver in the lead and they do not attempt to refine it. 8169. (Chairman.) Is the lead-ore found in the millstone grit 2–Yes, Cononley and one of the mines of which I was engineer were in the millstone grit, the other was in mountain limestone. 8170. What is the great lead ore bearing stratifica- tion ?—There has been more lead got out of the mill- stone grit than out of any other stratification. The veins in the millstone grit are sometimes small, some- times of enormous size. 8171. Is the lead distributed in veins and not diffused through the mass of the grit –It is in faults and dis- locations; sometimes we find the strata on one side of a vein 100 or 200 feet higher than the same strata on the other side of the vein. 8172. It is in the lines of faults —Yes, very large faults. 8173. Have you ever known lead-ore diffused through a mass of the millstone grit?—No ; we have sometimes what we call pipes where the lead-ore is not in a vein at all but in a large hole. - 8174. Do you know anything with regard to copper mines?–Only theoretically. 8175. Do you know that peculiar copper deposit near Manchester in the new red sandstone *-I have heard of it. We find lead very often very much dis- seminated in the veins of the sandstone mixed up with the barites. - 8176. What peculiar effect has the lead in poisoning the cattle? Does it swell their joints —I have never paid sufficient attention to it to enable me to say. I know that in my neighbournood we have frequently attributed the death of the cattle to it. 8177. You have not heard whether it affects the gums or the joints, but simply that it produces death —I cannot speak to that. At one time when I was engineer to the mine I have mentioned, we frequently found, when the smelting was carried on with a short chimney, that in consequence of the chimney being very short, a vapour rose from the smelt-house, and then that all the vegetation round was destroyed. The cattle were prevented by special regulations from eating anything round about. 8178. (Professor Way.) You know, I suppose, most of the manufacturers in this district?—I know a good many of them. 8179. The dyeworks and so on ?–Yes. - 8180. Do you know the nature of the refuse they throw into the river; I mean the refuse from the dye processes and from the washing, and the whole of the solutions of refuse 2–Yes. 8181. Do you think, from your chemical knowledge, and your practical knowledge of the trade carried on here, that there is any hope of dealing with those liquids so as to send down comparatively pure water 2 —I have studied the question very closely, and I do not know of any means, I think that subsidence will not do it. 8182. There would be more prospect of succeeding if there were an object in discovering a process by which it might be done –Most decidedly. 8183. It would hardly be worth a chemist’s while now to set to work to devise a method when it would result in its being put aside 2–I am afraid that theore- tical views are frequently set aside. I am afraid settling will not do it, and I will give you a reason why. At Swillington Bridge there is a long reach kept up by a dam, and I have visited both the top and lower part of it, and I do not see that the water is any clearer at the bottom than it is at the top. On the other hand, there must be some effect produced by subsidence, because the farther you get down the river, the clearer it becomes. 8184. On Monday morning we have been told that the water is very often clear or comparatively so 2– It is not so at Swillington Bridge. 8185. Is there not a coloured deposit at the bottom of the river ?—I have noticed that at the side of the river after a flood. I have found on the sides of the river a very thick black deposit which apparently was from subsidence from the water. If you wish to have any information from an unofficial source as to the water supply for the town, probably I can give it you, having examined the question with much attention. 8186. (Chairman.) You know, I suppose, the pro- posed scheme that Mr. Filliter has laid before the corporation ?–Yes. If you have seen Mr. Hunter's report on the health of Leeds, there is appended to it a very long letter from me on the character of the water supply to Leeds. 8187. What is your opinion of the present character of the water 2–1 should say that it is very impure. 8188. What would be the character of the water that is proposed to be brought in 2–It certainly can- not be pure, because it will be derived from the most impure stream within many miles of Leeds ; the Washbourn rises in several thousand acres of peat and bog, and is the most deeply tainted of any that I know of within 50 miles of Leeds. 8189. What district do you think water might be obtained from for the supply of Leeds?—I have pro- posed several times a district which, I believe, would give one of the best waters that could be obtained. I would have the water drawn from the tributaries of the river Yore. 8190. What is the character of the subsoil from which that water flows 2–It is the millstone grit. the same as the Washbourn. 8191. Is it free from mossy deposits * – It is infinitely freer than the Washbourn; the Washbourn is notoriously the most peaty source that there is within 50 or 60 miles of Leeds. 8192. What would be the comparative cost of the works that would be necessary in obtaining the water from the two places –According to the evidence that Mr. Filliter gave the other day, he expects to bring 23,000,000 gallons to Leeds for 317,000/., that would give 14,000l. per million gallons. If we take the experience of Leeds and other towns we shall find an amazing difference. Leeds, in order to get its present supply, has to pay about 100,000l. for a million gallons; Bradford, 75,000l. for a million gallons; Liverpool, 115,000l. for a million gallons; Manchester, 60,000l. for a million gallons. Mr. Filliter, according to his statement, expects to get 23,000,000 gallons a day at 14,000l. per million gallons. That is scarcely a fifth of what others expect to get it for. The sources to which I allude would certainly give 23,000,000 or H. : * > - LEEDS. Mr. C. L. Dresser, C.E. 9 Nov. 1866. 252 RIVERS COMMISSION:-—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. Mr. C. L. D, esser, C. E. 9 Nov. 1866. even 30,000,000 gallons, and I think the expense would be about 400,000l. 8193. The source you have alluded to you think would yield purer water, and give it in as great a volume and would be supplied at a relatively less cost 2 —I think so ; not greater certainly ; the dry weather flow of the Washbourn, when pare and clear, is cer- tainly not more than 3,000,000 gallons a day ; the flood flow is large as it is derived from a tolerably large catchment; but when it is in the slightest degree affected by rains, it immediately begins to be dis- coloured. 8194. What point would you take in the Wash- bourn where you would obtain the 3,000,000 gallons a day ?—I have gauged it at various points. 8195. You do not mean to say that it would be 3,000,000 gallons a day over five or six miles of its length; it would be the greatest at its junction with the Wharfe would it not ?–I have gauged it there when it was not running more than 3,000,000 gallons, when it was very clear. 8196. In very dry weather at its junction with the Wharfe the flow of the Washbourn does not exceed that f-No. 8197. What would be the dry weather flow of the stream that you would propose to take the water from ?—The dry weather flow of one of the streams that I should take it from (I have gauged them many times) is about 5,500,000, and the other is about the Saille. 8198. What is the comparative superficies of the area of the Washbourn, and the area of the streams you would deal with ?–The area of the two streams I should deal with would be about 23,000 acres. S199. What is Mr. Filliter’s area 2–In Mr. Filliter’s words, about 20,000 acres; but there is this great difference, that the watershed of the Washbourn is comparatively low, while the watershed of the Bourn, and of the other I propose to deal with, is nearly 1,000 feet higher. 8200. Would the water gravitate to Leeds?—Every inch of the way. 8201. What does the distance measure along the conduit that you would make to bring in the water to Leeds 2—Short of 30 miles. 8202. What is the distance of Mr. Filliter's?— Perhaps 15 or 16 miles. 8203. Yours would be double the distance 2–Yes. 8204. Would you have to make an impounding reservoir 3–In the first instance for the supply of the town, I think not, because the dry flow of the two rivers would produce about 10,000,000 gallons a day. 8205. Do you think that the landowners would permit you to take away one drop of water without compensation in water 2–There are no mills or any- thing of that sort on the streams which would be affected ; perhaps the landowners would not acquiesce, but I should make compensation reservoirs. 8206. Would they be on the millstone grit –Yes. 8207. Do you know what height the embankments would have to be, and of what capacities you would make the reservoirs?—I have gone into all that question, but I have not the details here. 8208. It is hardly fair to Mr. Filliter for us to receive an outline of the scheme if you cannot give us the details?—I have them all, although not at this moment here. With regard to filtering, I wish to say that I have attempted to filter this bog water. I have used various methods, and amongst others that of Mr. Spencer with the carbide of iron, I fancy it is some sort of half roasted sulphuret of iron. 8209. I suppose that any process for purifying that water would be not so much filtering as bleaching 2– It is a kind of bleaching. If you suspend a coil of iron wire in water highly coloured by peaty matter, or much affected by organic matter, and let it remain a certain time, it will take the organic matter out. I apprehend that that is an instance of the same prin- ciple as that on which Mr. Spencer works, with this difference, that when you suspend the wire in water organically tainted, purification requires a con- siderable time, whereas in filtering, the water passes through at a great speed, and there is not time to con- duct the bleaching operations you spoke of. 8210. Have you faith in Mr. Spencer's mode of filtering, or not?—I have no faith at all in it; I have found it to fail utterly in the case of bog water. 8211. Do you know whether the taint of the bog would be injurious physically, or simply objectionable on the score of colour ; in other words, would an infusion of bog be more injurious than an infusion of tea —Yes, one is agreeable, and the other is not. I do not see why we should have bog water. 8212. Speaking of tainted water, you might have a very bright water which might be for culinary pur- poses more objectionable than the soft water which was slightly tainted with bog. Would you prefer the Washbourn or the Thames water 2–Personally the taste of bog water is very disagreeable to me. 8213. (Professor Way.) Do you know as a fact that the water of Loch Katrine is distributed in Giasgow and that it is constantly coloured with peat —I have never seen it. It is very soft water, I be- lieve. There are methods in this district of getting rid certainly of the taint of bog, which I should be prepared to point out professionally at any time. 8214. Your objection to Mr. Filliter's plan is only the bog –I beg pardon, that is not so. There are upwards of 300 acres of wood, and the decayed leaves from the trees must affect the water. Then there is a very large number of mills and roads which are passed, and those will all affect the water. There are also a great many farmsteads that will drain into his area. 8215. Is the area that you propose to take the water from free from all those objections?—Yes. 8216. There are no bogs, nor trees, nor roads — None. I do not think there are three mills in the area. 8217. And no farmsteads —None ; it is a wild wilderness of country lying very high indeed. 8218. Where is it situated —Up there (pointing to the map). 8219. Is it cultivated 2–No. 8220. Are there moors there —There are moors, but not peat bogs. The Washbourn, I think, has 5,000 or 6,000 acres of peat bog—peat moors—where the peat is from five to seven or eight feet thick. 8221. Have you analysed the water of the Wharfe 2 Yes, repeatedly. 8222. What is the degree of hardness of the water of the Wharfe –The present hardness varies a good deal. I should say it was from 8° to 10°. 8223, Was that when there was a large quantity of water 2–I have analyzed it in various states of the water. I may state that I was one of those who op- posed the Addle Beck scheme in Parliament, when, as the gentleman who was here last stated, there was an attempt made to reconstruct the Addle dam. I know that beck intimately. 8224. Were you engaged in that case ?—Yes, by the millowners, in opposing it. 8225. What was the ground of their opposition ?— It was this, that it was a company who wanted to tax them—to impound more of the flood waters and let it out regularly, and then tax the millowners for the expense, and they objected to that. 8226. To whom does the Addle reservoir belong 2 —I have always understood that it belongs to some corn millers just below it. 8227. To the owners of a mill just below 2–Yes. 8228. Do they regulate the egress of the water at present —They only regulate it to suit their own corn mill. 8229. They have the reservoir under their control Yes. 8230. They are practically the owners of it?–Yes, the state of it has been getting worse year by year. 8231. They have taken no measures to cleanse it 2 No ; and it has got into a very bad state indeed, The witness withdrew. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 253 Mr. JAMEs HIGGINs (Leeds) examined. 8232. (Chairman.) What are you?—I am the cattle plague inspector of this borough. 8233. What points do you wish to speak to ?–I have been meat inspector for this borough for nine years. 8234. Have you read the evidence of Mr. Mitchell? —Yes. 8235. Do you disagree with it —Yes, I do. 8236. With what portion of it?—From the form and tenor of the evidence I am led to think that it will go forth to the public that the state of the river has been the cause of the outbreak of the cattle plague in the Thorpe Hall pastures. 8237. (Mr. Harrison.) That is not what Mr. Mitchell stated. He stated that the cattle plague was brought there by an animal imported into Hull, but that the condition of the river, the water of which the cattle could occasionally drink, and the condition of the atmosphere in those meadows, he thought, pre- disposed the animals to take the cattle plague when this animal having it was introduced among them — That animal was brought under my own observation as inspector for this borough. It was brought into the borough in a dying state. 8238. Where did it come from ?—It was bought in Leeds market; it was a foreign animal, sent with three others from Hull. 8239. (Chairman.) Where did it come from to Hull –I do not know; it was a Dutch animal, black and white. 8240. It came from some part of Holland to Hull P —Yes. 8241. And then came from Hull to Leeds –Yes; and was exhibited for sale. 8242. And had disease upon it —I have no doubt that it was an infected animal. 8243. It went from Leeds to Thorpe Hall pastures —Yes. 8244. Did it die there 2–It was brought in a dying state out of Thorpe Hall pastures into one of the slaughter-houses for this borough. - 8245. Do you think that it infected Thorpe Hall pastures during the time it was there 2–Yes, I believe so. 8246. How many days was it there 2–About 14 days as near as I could ascertain. The party gave me contradictory statements. 8247. (Mr. Harrison.) You said just now that the animal was sold out of Leeds 2—It was sold in the Leeds market. I did not know of it then. I do not know that of my own knowledge, but merely from its having been stated to me. No doubt this animal was the first reported case with the cattle plague, but I had had three other cases a few days previous to this case. I have seen many thousands of diseased beasts but I never saw anything of the nature of this. I called the attention of Mr. Dray, the veterinary sur- geon, to three separate cases before I called him to this one special case. The disease was not known then, not even by the veterinary surgeons here, and I have no doubt, from my experience since, that we had three separate and distinct cases out of other districts. Two of them came from within two miles of Tadcaster where the disease raged with great intensity. 8248. Where had they come from to Tadcaster — I attributed them to a dealer at Tadcaster who was a dealer in foreign stock, and he showed foreign animals in Leeds market. 8249. Had they come from Holland through Hull —Yes. 8250. How many days previous to this diseased animal coming into Leeds market had these other diseased animals come before you?—They followed one another in quick succession, all within about ten or a dozen days. 8251. They might all have come out of the same cargo —They might have received the infection from that. 8252. They might have come in the same ship?- Yes. The cattle plague, when it broke out at the Thorpe Hall pastures, broke out almost simultaneously in various parts of Yorkshire, particularly down at Tadcaster and York, where the cattle were that were removed out of our market. At that time there were very large cattle shows, many markets were over- stocked, and there was a great number of cattle turned out unsold. 8253. Among those great shows of cattle there were certain Foreign cattle, and you saw at least four of them that you conceived had this unknown disease upon them —Yes. The cases that I saw before I saw this Foreign animal were English cattle. 8254. Where had they got the disease from ?–I have no doubt they had got it by the transit of foreign cattle in the various districts. 8.255. How long will the disease take to incubate do you think. Suppose at foreign beast is brought from Holland and turned into a meadow here 2–I should suppose that if an infected animal, whether an English or a Foreign animal, was put near others, half the stock would be infected within a few hours. It might not show itself possibly for from eight to ten days. 8256. It would take from 10 to 14 days before it would exhibit itself as palpable disease in the English cattle P-Yes. 8257. If this animal that was brought to Leeds took the infection just at the time when it was brought to Leeds, others from the same cargo might have received the infection from the animals that were taken to York and to Tadcaster, so that you might have had simultaneously animals at York, Tadcaster, and Thorpe Hall pastures all diseased from the same cause –Yes. This animal became diseased on a Monday evening. On the Wednesday evening it was followed by two English ones, and on the day following it was followed by a Foreign animal, and in quick suc- cession animals arrived from various parts of the district round about. 8258. (Chairman.) Did you give evidence before the Cattle Plague Commission ?—Yes. 8259. Is it printed in their report 2–Yes. My opinion is that the disease did not break out spon- taneously in these pastures, but that it was taken there by infection, and I ground that opinion upon the fact that in the same manner it has been taken to other parts of the West Riding of Yorkshire. As to the supply of water to these pastures, there is a con- tinuous supply of good, fresh, wholesome water for the cattle during the whole of the year. It was never known to be otherwise. I believe that the cattle in these pastures will take the good, wholesome water before they will go to the river. 8260. (Professor Way.) You do not deny that the river is in a bad state 2–No. - 8261. You do not deny that a healthy condition of the atmosphere and the water is more likely to be beneficial to the cattle than an unhealthy condition of them —Certainly not. I believe that parties who are well versed in the habits of animals will agree with me that animals, if they can get pure water, will not go and take impure water. We cannot get a cow to drink out of a greasy bucket if we put pure water 11]. 8262. Will not cattle drink water that we should call dirty in a ditch or pond –I think they will take pure water first. During my experience as meat inspector, twice or three times in 1861 and 1863, a disease broke out amongst the animals in these pas- tures called, by Professor Gamgee, splenic apoplexy. We call it the melt complaint, but it is a fearful disease. A very large number of animals have died of that disease. It is peculiar to these pastures, and to pastures further down the river called the Brotherton Marshes. In 1861 and 1863 a very large number of cattle died. I saw five lying dead in these pastures one morning. 8263. To what do you attribute that 7–These LEEDS. --- Mr. J. Higgins. 9 Nov. 1866. i i 3 254 ºf VERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, LEEDS. M.r. J. Higgins. 9 Nov. 1866. pastures at certain seasons get overflowed from the river Aire, and when the grass becomes rich, the animals then become liable to this disease. It is the flush of the grass in the pastures. 8264. Does it arise from the cattle thriving too rapidly upon it 2–Yes. 8265. You stated that the cattle plague broke out in these pastures of Thorpe Hall, at Tadcaster, and at York, at the same time 2–Yes. 8266. Had you animals from all those places?— Yes. - 8267. Was the cattle plague equally severe at all of those three places —I believe it was equally or rather more severe down at Tadcaster, York, and the neighbourhood of Wetherby, than at Leeds. 8268. On what river is Tadcaster situated 2–-On the Wharfe. 8269. Are there many large towns above Tadcaster that pollute the river Wharfe P-I think not. 8270. Tadcaster is only a few miles below Arthing- ton, I believe –It is about 10 miles. 8271. From Arthington the Leeds people at pre- sent obtain their water supply, do they not *-Yes. 8272. Are there any considerable towns between Arthington and Tadcaster —None. 8273. Therefore, the water at Tadcaster would be nearly as pure as the water at Arthington –Yes, and perhaps purer. 8274. Were the cattle at Tadcaster that took the disease grazing upon the pastures by the side of the river ?–Most of the grazing pastures lie upon the river side, but the farmers unfortunately had got their stores of cattle in just at that time, and that was the reason why there was a very large quantity in this district. 8275. From the crowding of the animals together ? —Yes, there was a greater number than usual. 8276. Was that the case also in the Thorpe Hall pastures —No, it was not. 8277. At York how was it 2–I should attribute it there to the same cause as in the Tadcaster district. 8278. Was there a great increase in the number of stock upon the meadows at York at that time 2–1 believe there was. 8279. You say that you believe the disease was quite as bad at Tadcaster and at York as in the Thorpe Hall pastures 2–It was worse. I wish to point out that in all probability this was an infected animal be- fore it went to Thorpe Hall pastures. 8280. Are you inspector for Leeds now —I am cattle plague inspector. I resigned the office of meat inspector in September. 8281. What became of the carcase of that diseased animal 2–It was destroyed. 8282. Have you ever known the carcases of diseased animals sold for human food —Yes. 8283. Any that have been diseased with the cattle plague and then slaughtered –Yes, many a score. 8284. Animals that have been diseased when slaugh- tered f-Yes. 8285. The meat has been sold for human food, has it 2–Yes. I am aware that a number of animals which formed part of the “Revel” cargo were brought to this town and exposed for sale in the cattle market. 8286. Have you known any diseased meat to be sold in this district—cattle that have died of imilk fever, dropped calves, or measled pigs 3–Yes. 8287. Is it sold now if they can circumvent the in- spector –They will sell it if they are not found out. 8288. There is a variety of diseased meat, but as to the worse class of it, in what form does that come into public use 2 I suppose it is too bad to be sold in joints, do they make it into sausages, and put it into soup 2–The public do not thoroughly understand the diseased meat question ; a cow affected with milk fever is generally a fat cow, one that has been very well fed during the time of calving. The beef of a milk-fever cow can be sold anywhere, although if it had not been killed a few hours before it would have died. - 8289. Therefore, you think that you need not pro- livers. hibit the sale of a beast in that condition ?—I have done so with many a score. 8290. Do you think it would not be injurious if it was eaten ?—I believe it would, if the animal had been suffering from certain diseases, particularly fever diseases, such as the disease I have mentioned, which has been prevalent in the Thorpe Hall pastures, namely, splenic apoplexy. In milk fever the animals, generally speaking, are in very good condition and can be exposed for sale with impunity, and it requires a very experienced and well-practised eye to detect it. 8291. You do not mean to say that it should be sold 2–Certainly not. I hold that the flesh of animals diseased, palpably so, particularly diseased with fever —no matter what condition the animal is in as to fat- ness or appearance—is not fit to be eaten and ought to be condemned. 8292. Would you say, as a rule, that meat inspec- tion should be carried out far more generally than it has been 2–Yes. I may state that I have given evi- dence three times upon this subject, twice before a Committee of the House of Commons, and once before the Cattle Plague Commissioners. With regard to the inspection in the borough of Leeds, there is one inspector for the whole borough round about Leeds— for 20 miles round; and the farmers, cattle dealers, and owners of stock, when they find that an animal is diseased, kill it, and off it comes to Leeds or Brad- ford or Halifax. Leeds being bounded on three sides by agricultural districts, we get all their diseased animals. I may say that while I was meat inspector for eight years and eight months I condemned 3,600 diseased carcases. 8293. Were they destroyed 2–Yes, they were all destroyed. 8294. (Mr. Harrison.) Have there been cases of cattle that were affected with pleuro-pneumonia?— Yes, there have been many hundreds. 8295. It is the custom, I believe, when pleuro- pneumonia gets among healthy stock frequently to kill a great number of them —Yes, as it would go through all of them unless they were killed. 8296. In that case there might be very different degrees of disease among the animals?–Yes. - 8297. Is it easy to detect the disease ?—Yes, it is to a certain extent. You can always detect it in the lungs if taken in the very early stages; but you cannot detect it always in the carcase. 8298. Have you had in the district many sheep with the rot, or flukes in the liver ?—We have had few rotten sheep for these many years. 8299. Does the disease affect the flesh of the animals P-Yes, it does very much, it produces a whitened appearance on the fat, and the lean is soft and watery. 8300. That, I presume, you would prevent from being sold –Yes, always. 8301. A great variety of animals are affected with that disease, I believe –Yes. With regard to flukes in the liver, there are very few sheep in a healthy condition which have not some of them, and we cannot interfere with them. 8302. It is a question of degree; when the number is excessive the disease is serious –Yes, when the animal is palpably diseased. 8303. I believe that in some cases you might have a large number of fat sheep that had more or less flukes in the liver ?–Yes, there are very few ewe sheep which have not flukes more or less in their I understand that they are the causes of what is called the rot in sheep, although the animals may be in a very healthy state and in a thriving condition for a length of time. - 8304. Have there been many cases of pigs diseased with measles? — Not so many, not of late years; there are cases occasionally, but only occasionally, and the reason of that is that they undergo a very strict inspection. It is mainly Irish pigs that have the measles, and they undergo a very strict scrutiny at Liverpool before they go further, --- º- - RIVERS COMMISSION:-MENUTES OF EVIDENCE. ºš5. 8305. Can they detect the disease in an animal while alive?–Pig dealers going down to Liverpool market go and buy 40 or 50 pigs; the pigs are then submitted to experienced judges, and they get 24, each for examining them. They seize each pig and look at the tongue. They can tell a measly pig by looking at the tongue, consequently very few measled pigs make their way here, there may be one occasionally. 3306. Do you know whether the meat of a measled pig when eaten is very mischievous?--I should say that it would be. I always condemn it when I find it. 8307. You say that you know the condition of the river and that it is bad ; are there bad smells emanat- ing from the Sheepscar brook –Yes, very bad smells indeed. 8308. Is it ever to such an extent as to affect the meat which is slaughtered in the town 2–I do not think that the smell would come that way. 8309. Are there public slaughter-houses 2 – The slaughter-houses are not near that beck. 8310. Are there public slaughter-houses —There are no public slaughter-houses; they are all private Ones. 8311. What becomes of the refuse from the slaughter- houses —It goes down the sewer; the blood and the offal and the manure are taken away. 8312. But the washing from the slaughter-houses, and so on, goes into the sewer?—Yes. 8313. When you were inspector did you inspect the slaughter-houses —Yes. 8314. Did you find that matter attended to ?–Yes, I had no trouble with the butchers. I had some trouble at the commencement, but I soon got them into a cleanly way. The witness withdrew. Mr. Robert GARSIDE (Leeds) examined. 8315. (Mr. Harrison.) I believe that you are an alderman of the borough of Leeds 2—I am. 8316. Have you been resident in Leeds for a number of years ?–Above 50 years. 8317. How long have you been a member of the council –Nine years. 8318. Then you are well acquainted with Leeds and its neighbourhood –Yes. 8319. What was the condition of the river in your earlier days —The river in my earlier days was much purer than it is at the present time ; indeed, I have often gone to fish at a place in the upper part of the town, and there were quantities of fish at that time in it, some 30 years ago or perhaps 35 years. 8320. What was the condition of the Sheepscar Beck at that time —The Sheepscar Beck since I can remember it was the place from which the population at that end of the town fetched almost all their water for domestic purposes. I cannot say that it was drunk, but it was a comparatively pure stream at that time. 8321. It was used for all purposes, except for drinking 2–Yes. 8322. It was used for washing? — For washing, and everything of that sort. 8323. For cooking 2–Yes. 8324. And for everything, except absolutely for drinking 2–Yes. 8325. Then it must have been in a very different state from what it is now P-Quite so. 8326. Was the water of the Aire used in the same way at that time? – The water of the Aire was pumped up for the supply of the town in my recol- lection, within, I should think, 30 years, and perhaps less than that ; it was pumped up from Leeds Bridge. 8327. Was that the chief water supply for the population ?—Yes, with the exception of the wells. 8328. Were they numerous then 2–Yes, 8329. Are they now used ? – Yes, to a certain extent. We had some very fine water at Holbeck, and the same soft water exists underneath almost the whole surface at certain depths. 8330. Have you been chairman of any of the com- mittees connected with this borough – I have been chairman of the lodging house committee, and I have been chairman of the nuisance committee. 8331. Have you taken steps to diminish the nui- sances in the borough of Leeds —Very much so, in the last year or two. 8332. Have you seen the evidence which we have had as to the existence of nuisances at the present time 2—I have not. 83.33. We have had it stated to us that there are 1,000 sleeping apartments in Leeds placed over cess- pools —I believe that that is the case. I have been to see many myself. 8334. Are you still a member of the nuisance committee –Yes, 8335. There seems some work for you to do yet – Yes, it is one man’s hard work to manage that com- mittee. 8336. What other nuisances are there besides the cesspools and privies?—I consider that one of the greatest nuisances in Leeds is the sewers. 8337. In what way have you found them to be a nuisance —I think that they are capital things for taking away dirty water, but they are unventilated, and are a great source of death and disease in the town of Leeds. 8338. Have you experienced cases of death dis- tinctly arising from the unventilated condition of the sewers ?–It has been the opinion of all practical men for a long time that a part of the town which we call Cavalier Hill, which is one of the highest parts next the river, has been very much affected by the ex- halations. 8339. Are the inhabitants there of a better class?— They are a good class of well-to-do working men. 8340. Have they generally waterclosets in the houses?—No, but privies. 8341. How are the sewers connected with the houses in that part 2–They are not always connected, but I consider that when houses are connected with sewers, unless the sewers are properly trapped it is a great injury. 8342. Are the sinks in the back kitchens in con- nexion with the sewers ?–In some cases. 8343. Mr. Dresser mentioned this morning that in examining about the borough he found that there were exhalations from the sinks to a considerable extent?—Yes, and that will always be the case, for this reason, when a sewer is not ventilated the warmth of the kitchen or of the house will draw up the gases much faster than would otherwise be the case. 8344. That, in fact, becomes the ventilation ?–Yes, a kind of syphon. 8345. That points out the necessity of the nuisance committee or the corporation taking steps for better ventilation ?–Yes; I have more than once brought before our committee the desirability of ventilating the sewers, but we have not yet been able to carry it out. 8346. You have a lodging-house committee – Yes. 8347. For how many years have you been chairman of it?—For about two years. 8348. Have you improved the condition of the lodging houses?—I believe that the lodging houses are very well conducted, and Ishould think that the death rate in the lodging houses is as low or lower than in any part of the borough where the poor people live. 8349. Do you know Huddersfield?—I know it, but not very well. 8350. Are you aware that there the authorities have erected a model lodging house?—I am not aware of that. 8351. They gave us evidence upon the subject, and LEEDS. - Mr. J. Higgins. 9 Nov. 1866. --- Mr. R. Garside. I i 4 256 RIVERS commission :-MINUTEs OF EVIDENCE, IEEDS, Mr. R. Garside. 9 Nov. 1866. it appears that they have erected a model lodging house accommodating about 90 males, about 12 married couples, and about the same number of females, and that they find it remunerative and a very great con- venience to the poor people who require it, that it becomes self-supporting in the course of time, and that it is a very great advantage to the town –We have a place of that kind in Leeds; it was got up by some of the first gentlemen in the town, and it is in active operation at the present time, and I believe that it has always been remunerative. 8352. What number of people will it accommodate 2 —I have been over it many times, and I should think that there are from 58 to 70 inmates in it. 8353. Is it for occasional travellers or for mechanics who work in the town 2–It is for occasional poor travellers if they choose to go there. 8354. At Huddersfield they have a separate part of the building set apart for the mechanics who pay a small rate per night and who have the accommodation of a sitting-room and a library, which appears to be generally filled and appropriated?–In Leeds the lodging house is very well conducted. 8355. Do you find an improvement in the health of the occupiers of these lodging houses in consequence of your inspection ?—Certainly ; we see that the bedding is washed, and that the house is whitewashed, and whether there is any case of illness. 8356. Are you engaged in any business in Leeds —I am an ironmaster, and a colliery owner. 8357. Where are your collieries situated —About a mile and a half outside Leeds. 8358. In which direction ?—In York Road. 8359. Are they within the area of the Sheepscar Beck, or the beck adjoining —No, they are upon higher lands. 8360. Are they deep mines 2–The deepest is about 110 or 115 yards. 8361. Have you much water to pump from them * —We have a 13-inch pump working night and day, Sundays included ; we have a 4-feet stroke, and I should think that we generally run about 13 or 14 strokes a minute. 8362. What is the quality of that water 2–1 should think that it is the purest water in the neighbourhood of Leeds, 8363. How many years have you been working there 2–We have been pumping that water several years now, and I do not see that there is any diminu- tion of it, it keeps permanent. 8364. What becomes of that water 2–We pump it into the nearest gutter, and away it goes into the river. 8365. Is it a peculiarly soft water 2–It is a very soft water. 8366. Would it not be of use to the dyers or other manufacturers in Leeds 2–1 should think that it would be very valuable for any manufacturing purposes. 8367. Is it ever putrid –I cannot state that. 8368. Do you know the seam of coal which you are working 2—The seam of coal which we are working is what we call the Lowmoor and the Bowling Beds, it runs over from Bradford into this district. 8369. Are you working any beds besides those – Yes, we are working some about three miles from Leeds, called the Beeston Beds. 8370. Have you much water there 2–Not more than half as much as in the other place. 8371. What is the size of your pumps there 3–15 inches in diameter and four feet six stroke. We run as slowly as we possibly can, and we have to keep standing. I should think that we do not run more than five strokes on the average of the day through for the 24 hours. 8372. It was mentioned to us yesterday that the Lowmoor Company were pumping to a considerable extent at Beeston, so as to affect the wells in Leeds; have you any knowledge as to that ?—No ; they are down to the same beds as we are, namely, the Bowling and the Lowmoor beds. 8373. They are colliery owners as well as iron manufacturers?—Yes. 8374. Then that water would be pumped from their coal pit –Yes. 8375. What is the quality of the water which you get at Beeston P-I have heard it said that it is very good, but I have no practical knowledge of it myself. 8376. Is iron water pumped from any of the mines here *—No ; an immense quantity of water is pumped from mines in our immediate neighbourood, but I think that it is altogether of a very good quality. 8377. As an iron manufacturer, do you throw any refuse of any kind into the river which pollutes it 2– None of any sort. 8378. How many men do you employ at your manu- factory —I should think that we have been employing from 500 to 700 men and lads. 8379. What becomes of the sewage matter which you must have upon your premises from that number of persons?—I do not know that we have any particular arrangement. 8380. You have no special provision made for the men —No. 8381. You have no waterclosets or anything of that sort upon the premises?—We have not. 8382. Must it not be awkward for them sometimes? —I do not know ; they go among the dross-heaps in the field. 8383. Are your works situated near the river ?— No, they are a mile or a mile and a half from the I’l Ver. 8384. Then you have a large quantity of refuse 2– We have large heaps of refuse. 8385. And they do not come at all within the scope of the river ?—Certainly not. 8386. We have found in some cases that the slag is thrown into the river; at Keighley, for instance, large quantities are thrown into the river ?—But ours is valuable as a road material, we sell what we make. 8387. I presume that the weight and quality of that slag is such that if it were thrown into the river it would settle down in some part of it below the point where it was thrown in, and would have to be removed or the bed of the river would rise —Certainly. We make the dross into solid square heaps, a little above the town, and it is as hard as stone. 8388. And slag from other processes, namely, cinders, would settle down in the river, would it not 2 —Yes, if it went into the river. 8389. It must either raise the bed and do injury or it must be removed 2–Certainly. 8390. Therefore, do you think it would be right to prevent manufacturers throwing anything of that sort into the river ?—Certainly. 8391. (Prºfessor Way.) Are these coal pits which are near the town of Leeds extensive –They are. 8392. Do you anticipate that they will wear out in a few years 2–Just close to Leeds they will no doubt be worked out in 15 or 20 years. 8393. But so long as those beds or similar beds last will the pumping of that quantity of water which you speak of be necessary 2–Yes, we cannot keep our works going without it. 8394. Supposing that that water were necessary for any practical use, could you rely upon a supply of it for the next 20 years —I think so, from our pits. 8395. I suppose that there would be a limit to it? —No, not unless some other persons sank down in a deeper place, and took the water from us. 8396. At present the water is pumped out merely because the coal workings cannot be carried on without that being done –Just so. 8397. But supposing the beds to be worked out, it would be necessary that the water should bear the expense of pumping 2–Certainly. 8398. Do you know whether that water is at all alkaline 2–I do not. 8399. Is it of the kind of which they speak here as spa, water –It is not spa water; it is very soft without the spa. 8400. It is soft without being alkaline?–Yes, RIVERs CoMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 257 8401. It is in all probability a good water for brewing?—I should think that it was good for any- thing. - 8402. (Mr. Harrison.) As chairman of the nuisance committee, have you taken any steps to prºven the smoke which is discharged into the air at Leeds ?— Yes, we have an inspector continually employed, and when required he has assistance from the police. 8403. Have you found that you have been able to diminish the smoke nuisance 2—I believe that if we had not an inspector we should be a great deal worse than we now are. 8404. And that is bad enough occasionally, is it not 2–Yes, perhaps it may be; but I think that we are a great deal better than we were. 8405. Have you not obtained further powers in a late Act 2–Yes. 8406. Which will enable you further to diminish the nuisance —Yes; we have now the full powers which are required to diminish the quantity of smoke which is made in Leeds. 8407. Do you anticipate that you will be able to diminish the smoke from your own ironworks?—In some portions we shall, but not in all. We burn an immense quantity of cinders for our iron, and we cannot make any difference with them ; no plan can be adopted to do away with the smoke there entirely. 8408. Do you smelt 2–Yes. 8409. Do you roll 2–No, we only smelt; we are only pig iron makers. 8410. Have any means been proposed for diminish- ing the nuisance from your smelting works —There has been some attempt made, but I do not think that it has been at all successful. 84.11. Does not a large proportion of the smoke of Leeds come from its iron works —I believe so. 84.12. Have you seen the contrivance which Mr. Kitson is erecting for his steel works –Yes. 8413. Have you seen that in operation anywhere * —No. 8414. If that was successful it would be a great benefit, and would considerably diminish the quantity of smoke 2–1 should say that it would. 8415. He anticipates that it will at the same time effect a saving in fuel to him —If that is the case there will be no difficulty in getting it adopted. 8416. Have you had experience with large boiler chimnies 2–Yes. 8417. Have you been able to diminish to any extent the quantity of smoke arising from them 2– My own impression is that it depends more upon the stoker than upon anybody elsewhether smoke is made or not. If you give the best machinery it cannot be done if it is not properly carried out. 8418. At the same time if a stoker fired well there would be very little smoke?—Very little. 84.19. Seeing that that is the case (and it is ac- knowledged on all hands that it is so), should you think that there would be any hardship in making it compulsory that the smoke should not be emitted from the chimnies —I think that there is a defect in our Act. Whenever smoke is made a penalty is thrown upon the masters. I think that that ought to be varied, and that a good deal of the blame should be thrown upon the workmen; that would have the best effect of anything I know. 8420. Does not the prevention of smoke depend in a great measure upon the masters supplying a suffi- cient number of hands to fire the boilers steadily – Every master would do so. I do not think that there would be any difficulty about that. 8421. You think that the question of expense in supplying a sufficient number of hands to fire is not the difficulty 2–1 think not; I think that it generally arises from carelessness in the stoker. 8422. If you put the master to extra expense, you do not consider that that would be an objection against preventing smoke –I think not. 8423. It has been stated to us as an objection, that it would put the masters to a greatly increased expense to be obliged to supply hands for regular stoking — I think that the expense would be very trivial; most men in Leeds have not more than two boilers to attend to, and if men would fire carefully and systematically, they might prevent a great deal of smoke. 8424. (Professor Way.) I suppose that you might fine the men for not stoking carefully, and might pay them a little extra if they did stoke carefully?— Certainly. We pay good wages to all men of that class. 8425. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you think that the present condition of the Aire and of the Sheepscar Beck affects the manufacturers of Leeds to any serious and mischievous extent –In the way of health 2 8426. Not in the way of health, but as interfering with their trade 3–I do not see how the becks can be improved, for this reason—manufactories are con- tinually increasing, and more impurities must be continually put into the becks. I think that the best thing which we could do to the becks would be to give them a hard circular bottom, and not the present surface for mud and so on. 8427. You have an Act of Parliament for carrying that out, have you not *—Yes. 8428. And is it the intention of the corporation to do so 2–I believe that it is. 8429. (Professor Way.) In that way you would improve the condition of the becks; but would you improve the river by it?—You could not put a bottom to the river. 8430. The river would remain as foul as it is 8– Yes. The river in a very dry time becomes very foul about Leeds. Looking at the river in a dry time you will see patches rise to the top, perhaps of the size of the crown of a man’s hat. I have continually seen gas bubbling up all the day through ; that is just in the town. 8431. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you mean below the outfall of the sewer –No. 8432. Is there any sewage now discharged into the river opposite to the town —No, I believe not ; it all goes below. 8433. But you receive the sewage of all the towns above you; Bradford, and other towns —Certainly we do. 8434. Then do you consider that you are feeling the ill effects in the borough of Leeds of the sewage of other towns being sent down to you ?—Yes; the river being so impure is sure to affect the air of the town and also the health of the people. 8435. Therefore as a town you are interested in the river being made pure?—Certainly, as far as we possibly can. 8436. Therefore one would fancy that the manufac- turers in Leeds, and the inhabitants generally, would be glad of any measure which should be carried out preventing the pollution of the river throughout the whole district 2—Yes, if it could be carried out with- out injury to trade. As a town, we must, as far as possible, protect the trade of the town. There are always sure to be impurities where you have large trades, you cannot get out of that. 8437. But you may to some extent prevent those impurities being carried into the river?—If you put that refuse into the sewers it would run into the river all the same ; you would only remove it below Leeds. 8438. Do you consider that it would be a great advantage to your borough if you could restore the river to the condition in which it was when you remember that you could fish there 2–If we did that we should destroy the trade. 8439. (Professor Way.) You mean to say that any proposition as to the purification of the river must keep the trade in the foreground as the chief object 2 —There is not the least doubt of it. 84.40. The trade is the life of the town 2–It is. 8441. And the other thing is the comfort of it?--- Yes. 8442. But at the same time you are not in a position to say positively that no plans or combination of plans would, without serious or real injury to trade, K k 17159.-2, LEEDS, Mr. R. Garside. 9 Nov. 1866. 258 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. Mr. R. Garside. - 9 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. Reffitt. effect a very considerable purification of the river ?— I do not know of anything. 8443. But you are not in a position to say that it is impossible –Certainly not. 84.44. For instance, you are not in a position to say that the diverting of the sewage of the towns from the river, and the application of it in irrigating land, is impossible 2–It is not impossible. 8445. And of course to that extent the river might be rendered purer –The question arises at once, Would it pay? 8446. You mean would it pay its expenses —Yes. 8447. The question is as to whether the thing is desirable and how much it is worth, and whether it is practicable —Yes. 8448. (Mr. Harrison.) We have had it in evidence here that your corporation at present pay about 4,000l. a year for the removal of cesspit ashes, and so forth, from the town 2–We pay about 3,000l. for the ashes. 8449. The figures given were 3,800l., and Alderman Carter said, that with other expenses, including the officers, the sum mounted up to 4000l. a year –Yes, I should say that it would if you reckon the officers in. 8450. And Mr. Filliter stated to us that pumping the sewage 25 feet so as to send it on to land below by gravitation would not cost 3,000l. a year, so that if you had the watercloset system carried out through- out the town and that expense of 4,000l. a year was done away with, you might pump all your sewage without any expense to the borough beyond that to which you now go 2–You could not get out of the 4,000l. expense, that is, for the removal of ashes and night-soil out of the borough of Leeds. We do not now allow anything of that sort to be deposited within the town, when we did so it cost the town a great deal less money. 8451. But you would get rid of the night-soil if it was carried into the sewers ?—Certainly. 8452. There would only remain the ashes?—Just so. 8453. And they would not be such a source of nuisance –They would not, but still the expense would not be lessened, but rather the reverse. 8454. Would it fall upon the borough to remove the ashes if the sewage matter was separated from them * —The town would have to remove them, there is not a question of it. No plan can be adopted of keeping the town at all cleanly unless the corporation takes into its own hands the removal of such refuse. 8455. Is there any other point which you wish to mention ?—I will just say, as chairman of the nuisance committee, that if we could have one large slaughter- house establishment for the whole borough and could do away with the many slaughter-houses which we have spread over the town in every direction, it would be a great source of benefit to the health of the people, and it would do more than that ; at the present time, with a slaughter-house to every butcher's shop, it is impos- sible to inspect the meat properly. If we had a registered slaughter-house for the whole borough, where every beast which was killed could be inspected, I believe that the health of the town would be very much benefited. 8456. Would you have that slaughter-house beyond the limits of the borough 2–I would have it some- where outside away from the inhabitants. 8457. Where all the refuse might easily be carried away into the main sewer –In that case the town would claim all the refuse. They would allow people to kill for so much a beast and they would claim all the refuse and it would be cleared away continuously as it was made. 8458. Have you powers for carrying out that object 2 —Yes, and it has been more than once before our committee. 8459. And as chairman of the nuisance committee you conceive that it would be a very great benefit to the town if you could carry it out 2–Yes. 8460. What are the obstacles in the way of its being carried out 7–The expense partly. 8461. Should you have power to stop all the private slaughter-houses in that case ?–Yes, we should do so. 8462. (Professor Way.) I suppose that that would be a great comfort to the people who use the streets 2 —Yes. 8463. The slaughter-house might be so arranged that very few of the cattle would come through the town 2–Yes, The witness withdrew. Mr. JAMES REFFITT (Leeds) examined. 8464. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you a resident in Leeds? —Yes. 8465. In what part of it?—I reside at Springfield Mount. I have dyeworks on the Kirkstall Road. 8466. Near Joppa – They are the next to Mr. Alderman George's. It is a little nearer Leeds than Joppa. 8467. And close upon the banks of the Aire — Yes. 8468. How many hands have you employed upon your works —About 240 or 250. 8469. What do you dye –Stuff goods that are made in Bradford. 8470. Do they send goods from Bradford to you to dye 2–We fetch them. 8471. Are they finished here 2–Yes, we fetch them as they come out of the loom, and return them finished. 8472. What quantity of water do you use per day in your different dyeing processes?—I should think that we pump from 400,000 to 500,000 gallons in a day. #78. Where do you pump it from ?–Partially from the river and partially from a well which we have. - 8474. What proportion do you obtain from the river and what proportion from the well? — That which we get from the well is a very small proportion compared with what we get out of the river. 8475. How much do you pump from the well?— Perhaps 1,000 gallons a day. 8476. Is it soft water from the well?—Yes, mode- rately soft. 8477. From what depth do you pump it?–From, perhaps, 15 or 20 yards. 8478. Have you a bore-hole below that 2–No. 8479. For what purpose do you use that water 2– For what we call light colours and stoving. 8480. What is stoving 2—Stoving white. are made as white as this paper. process—scouring and stoving. 8481. And the water from the river you use for dyeing darker colours ?–Yes, and very nearly all colours. 8482. Do you use the river water for cleansing the dye from the cloth afterwards 2—Yes. 8483. For all the colours ?—All but the stoved whites. 8484. And for that purpose you use the well water? —Entirely. 8485. Is yours a very old established concern ?— Yes; it is, I should think, 50 years since the works were first erected. 8486. How do you account for the Bradford people sending their goods down here to be dyed 2–Nearly all the stuff merchants used to be in Leeds; as Brad- ford increased in manufactures, most of the stuff mer- chants went from Leeds to Bradford. There are only a very few stuff merchants left in Leeds now. The merchants buy their goods of the manufacturers; they used to have to go to Bradford to buy the goods after they were just woven and ready to be given out to the dyers to dye, and then they used to send them from Leeds to the various districts up and down the country. They continued to do that till about 15 years ago Pieces It is a very old RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 259 when many of them gave up the warehouses here and built or took other warehouses in Bradford. 8487. And now I believe they dye to a considerable extent in Bradford itself?—There are not more dyers in Bradford than there were. 8488. But they dye to a great extent in Bradford, do they not, the beck looks like it?—I do not think that there has been any increase in the number of dyers in Bradford in the last 20 or 25 years. 8489. Has there been an increase in the number of dyers in Leeds 2—No, I think that there has been rather a decrease, but the works are made larger. 8490. Is there as large a quantity of goods dyed in Leeds as there used to be 2–Yes quite. I should say that nearly as many goods of that particular kind called the Bradford make are dyed in Leeds as are dyed by the Bradford dyers. 8491. What proportion of your 500,000 gallons of water do you use in your dyeing kettles 2–Perhaps, from 40,000 to 50,000 gallons. 8492. That is actually dye water?—Yes. 8493. Have you steam power on the premises — Yes. 8494. Do you use any large quantity of water for steam purposes —Yes, for the boilers. 8495. What do you use 2–We have seven 40-horse boilers. 8496. Working how many hours a day ?–From 6 o'clock to 8 and 9 o'clock, and sometimes from 6 o'clock to 4 o’clock, according to the state of trade. 8497. What quantity of water do you reckon that you use for those boilers daily –I do not know. When they are once filled of course they merely require keeping up, to maintain the steam. I should think that perhaps 1,000 gallons a day would go a long way. - 8498. What quantity of water do you use for con- densing 2–The steam which we use is principally for heating the dye vats. 8499. What horse power have you at work?—We have a 30-horse engine and a 20-horse, and a 12-horse and a 5-horse. 8500. What quantity of water do you use in clean- ing the cloth after it is dyed 2–We use a considerable quantity. I should think, perhaps, from 200,000 to 300,000 gallons in a day. 8501. What do you use for cleansing the cloth - Principally fullers earth and clean water. 8502. Do you use urine or soap to any extent *— No, very little. We use a little soap, but not much. 8503. What quantity of fullers earth do you use daily –Perhaps two or three hundredweight, only a small quantity. 8504. What number of pieces do you dye per day : —About 1,000 pieces per day. 8505. Of about what weight are those pieces — They will weigh from 8 up to 16 lbs. apiece. 8506. Averaging about what 2–Averaging about 9 or 10 lbs. I should think. 8507. What becomes of the refuse water from the dyeworks?—About five or six years ago we adopted a method of making a considerable portion of our dye- woods into decoctions; therefore we use the liquor and the solid part is carted away out of the works. 8508. What becomes of it 2–Some of the men who make manure to sell to the farmers fetch it. They mix it, I suppose, with the town manure. We are very glad to get rid of it and they seem very glad to fetch it. We make no charge for it. 8509. Is that the dyewood —It is spent dyewood. Spent sumach and spent divi-divi, an article like sumach, which the tanners use. 8510. What weight may that be per day ?—I should think that it will average two tons per day. 8511. Do you rasp the wood or is it in chips?—For making the decoctions we have it chipped, and when we use it in the dye vessel it is rasped and is of about the same substance as sawdust. 8512. What becomes of the liquid refuse?—The dye liquor is turned into the sewer, which eventually runs into the river. 8513. Have you ever turned your attention to cleansing that water before sending it into the river ? —No. I should say that it would be very difficult to do that. 8514. We have had it in evidence here that some dyers purify the water before they use it for dyeing —Yes; I saw that that had been named by my neigh- bour Mr. George. Of course I did not know what process he had of cleansing it, but I thought that it would be a very difficult matter, because I know that there are parties who have been very much put about for water in a dry time who, after using the water, have returned it into reservoirs. One place I have in my mind at present. 8515. Where is that?—At the Shelf Dyeworks near Halifax. 8516. Who are the dyers there?—Those works have been in several hands. Butterworths and Lords and others. The mills are not occupied at present. It has seemed to be a very unfortunate place. Several parties have had it, and all who have had it yet have failed. 8517. What process did the owners adopt for puri- fication ?—They had a large reservoir to return the water into from the washing machines and the dyeing vessels, and of course it was allowed to remain to settle. The water might perhaps do again for some purposes, in cleansing dark colours. But they only treated the water so because they were without any other resource. If they had had fresh water to have cleansed the goods with they would have preferred it. 8518. Did they take any other steps besides simply having settling tanks —I am not aware that they did. 8519. What is done with the ashes and refuse from your engines?—We take it all away. 8520. None of it goes into the river ?–None of it goes into the river. 8521. Were you here this morning when Mr. Holroyd gave his evidence?—No. 8522. Do you consider that the situation of Messrs. Holroyd's dyeworks at the junction of the Gipton Beck with the Sheepscar Beck gives them a great advantage over other dyers in pure water?—They have this advantage, they have some very nice water which comes out of the country down to a reservoir near the works. I know the locality very well. 8523. Should you think that it would be any con- siderable benefit to yourself as a dyer if the condition of the Aire was improved, if the water was purified ? —Yes, we should be very glad to have it purer than it ls, though we are nearly at the top of the stream. There has not been much to complain of in it until the last few years when tanneries have been created above us, and they have fouled the stream considerably. 8524. And they have affected your dyeing pro- cesses —Yes. Tanning is very bad because tanners are apt to use a large amount of sumach, or divi-divi, and gambia, and we have to use the same articles for dyeing purposes. It does not actually give a colour but it prepares the cotton to receive the colour. It acts as a sort of mordant. We often get it when we do not want it, though we very often have to use the same materials in our dyeing process. 8525. Considering that that is the case, and that you really feel the disadvantage of having the river so polluted, would you as a dyer object to being put to some expense in purifying the water which you use yourself if others were obliged to do the same 2—If the expense was a moderate one we should not care, but as we have to compete with the Bradford dyers, and we have to cart pieces backwards and forwards, which is an additional expense already, and if the expense was to be very heavy it would amount to this, that we should have to remove the works to Bradford or the neighbourhood, or some locality near. If we were put to a serious expense in having the water made purer than it is it might be a very serious thing. 8526. What should you consider a serious expense? -I saw that Mr. George had named 100l. a-year. 852. As a sum which he would not at all object to *-That is rather a serious sum when rents and LEEDS. -- Mr. J. Reffitt. 9 Nov. 1866. K k 2 260 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, LEEDS. Mr. J. Reffitt. 9 Nov. 1866. - rates have all to be considered, because unfortunately having the dyeworks so near the town we have much higher rates to pay than they have out of the borough. 8528. (Professor Way.) Would not you take your own share of the expense of purifying the river and keep your own impurities out if others were com- pelled to do the same –Certainly. - 8529. There would be some return to you ?—If the sum was moderate I should not care, but 100/. a-year for that, and 100t. a-year for something else, adds up. 8530. The question of 100l. a-year is a mere way of stating the thing in order to see what is meant by large sums, there is no plan founded upon 100l. a year 2 – We have always been able, up to the present time, to carry on our works without any additional expense, because we have had the good fortune to be pretty high up the stream at starting. The Joppa works are just above us, but we manage very well as regards them, for we had a large trough wood spout or conduit to convey all the refuse water from Mr. Botterill's dyeworks—that is above Joppa ; the large spout commenced there, and then it took the Joppa works and Mr. George's, and then my own works and Mr. Walker's below, and so on. We con- veyed the refuse down below our works, and of course we had the benefit of having the water coming down pretty clean and pure. 8531. Anybody who had works at the outside of your spout would have the water in all its filth — They would have it in any case. Where the spout ends there is a break of perhaps the length of two fields before you have any other works. We have the pipes arranged so that they are within about two yards of the other side of the river where we draw the water from, on purpose to have it as clean as we can get it, and it is only for a month or two in the year that we have been put to any inconvenience. This year is perhaps the best year that I ever knew, on account of our having had so much rain. The water in the river has kept very pure, or, at least, so that we can carry on all our works with advantage. 8532. Those two or three months of inconvenience which you speak of, I suppose, are a positive money loss, are they not—they stop your works for a time?— The works are not actually stopped. 8533. Are you reduced at those times to make in- ferior goods 2—We perhaps cannot do all the same kind of work which we otherwise should do. 8534. Is it not the case that the words “incon- venience and trouble" in the case of manufacturers mean loss of money —Yes. 8535. (Mr. Harrison.) If you could not dye the same kind of goods, those who want them would go to another dyer —Just so. 8536. And it is not very easy to get trade back again, is it — We have never been put into that position yet. In a very dry season we have found that less water comes down the river than used to do. I have been at these works myself above 30 years, and when I was first there the water was beautiful and clean, in fact, at our works it is about the deepest part in all the river; it will be three yards deep almost at any time. 8537. (Professor Way.) You spoke of the increase of Leeds, and I understood you to say that the dyeing manufacturers had not decreased, but that they were much the same as they were some 12 or 15 years ago There are rather fewer stuff dyers, that is to say, fewer dyers who dye Bradford goods, but there may be quite as many dyers altogether; there are some dyers who dye wool only, and there are some dyers who dye cloth only, while others, who are called stuff dyers, dye Bradford stuffs. 8538. Taking the whole money invested in dye- works in this place, has the trade largely increased ? —It has increased, I have no doubt, because though there may not be any more works in number they are larger works, and, of course, the capital of each would increase in proportion. 8539. If Leeds, 15 years ago, were a place in which the large trade was the dyeing of stuff and other goods, would it not be reasonable to expect that that trade would have increased with the general popula- tion, or in some relation to it, if some cause had not existed to interfere with the increase of the trade 2– Do you mean in reference to dyeing only, or to all the trades 2 8540. I mean in reference to dyeing. If Leeds was the head-quarters of a particular trade for which it was noted, and if its population has been found to increase very iargely, would you not have anticipated that that trade would have increased with the popula- tion –I should say that it has increased, the works have been made larger. 8541. You do not think that the dyeing done here has been comparatively stationary, taking into account the population ?-No, I am certain that it has in- creased. 8542. You think that as the water has got worse and worse, still the dyeing has gone on in the same ratio 2–Yes, it certainly has not decreased. 8543. Do you think that if the river becomes more polluted in proportion to the increase of population at the present rate, you will be able 10 or 15 years hence to use it for dyeing purposes 2–It might be used for some purposes, but where delicate colours were wanted it would not do. We have found that the Bradford canal, which has been a very black place at certain times, has been let off into the river Aire when there has been a large fresh in the river, and for a day or two we have at my works, perhaps, received as much annoyance from it as from anything; but I am happy to hear that there is a probability of that place being filled up. It is only a short canal from Shipley to Bradford, and there is some probability of its being filled up— that will be a great kindness to us at Leeds. 8544. (Mr. Harrison.) Have they let the water off from the canal without giving you any notice of their intention to do so *—We have never had any notice. We sometimes have had to stop our works for half a day, or a day. 8545. (Professor Way.) You said that you had to compete with Bradford P−Yes. 8546. I suppose that you would expect that if you were put under any kind of restrictions as regards the river, and the amount of impurity which you could throw into it, the Bradford people would be put under the same?—The Bradford people do not get their water from the river, it is collected from dams and from the waterworks, and they run their refuse sewage into the canal which I spoke of, at the end of the Bradford beck. 8547. Supposing that one part of this district was put under an embargo as to throwing impurities into the river, may we not take it for granted that the other portion would also be put under that embargo, and that, consequently, the Bradford people would have the same expense, whatever that might be, in purify- ing their refuse matter before they threw it into the river ; no matter where they got their water, you would then be put more on a level with them —Yes. I am an advocate for having clear water, and for having the river kept as pure as it can be kept. 8548. (Mr. Harrison.) Do the manufacturers of Bradford now get their water from reservoirs?—They have reservoirs of their own belonging to different dye- works. 8549. Where do they get the water from ?—I think that they get it from the land about. It is collected in small streams. There is a beck which runs near to Mr. Smith's works, and I believe that from that beck they are almost the first takers, and it is a moderately pure stream. 85.50. Do any of them get water from the water- works –Yes, I believe that they get some from the waterworks for some particular purposes, for light colours. 8551. (Professor Way.) I understood Mr. George to say, not that he purified the water which he used, but that he took the river water and dealt with the impurities in it 2–Yes. 8552. There is no difficulty in doing what he does RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 261 in that respect —No ; we have to add a little alum in order to purify the water as much as possible. 8553. That would not apply in the same degree to purifying the water after you have done with it?–No. 8554. (Mr. Harrison.) To what expense in the course of the year are you put for purifying the water for your purpose –Very little; because we find that a little alum and a little bran will bring up all the re- fuse to the top, and we simply, as the vessel is heated, take off all the scum. We do so three or four times during the process of the vessel being heated up, and the water then is very clean, and you can see to the bottom of the vessel. 85.55. What is the expense of that operation ?— It is no expense because we should have to use alum in the process of dyeing, and therefore it is only putting it in first instead of afterwards. 8556. (Professor Way.) Supposing that you had pure water to begin with of course you would not use so much alum ?—it might be that the water was very pure, and that we should have more alum to use owing to the peculiar nature of the water. 8557. However, the expense of it is not great 2–It is not great. 8558. One can easily understand that the water which you have used, even if all the colour and all the sediment were taken out of it, would be very different from a pure river water –It would. 8559. But when it comes to be run back into the river again it becomes extremely diluted —Yes. 8560. Consequently if you could deal with your dye liquids so as to throw them in the shape of a clear liquid into the river, and if every manufacturer did the same, I suppose that the river, though not so pure as it was formerly, would be very much clearer than it now is 2–Yes; if the sewers where our works are did not run into the river at all it would make the river very much better, but of course the refuse would only be going into the river again at Knostrop. 8561. And if all the water used by the manufac- turers went into the sewers how much would remain in the river ?–We have not spoken about that ; we could not both send it down a conduit and let it remain in the river. 8562. (Mr. Harrison.) If the Leeds corporation carry out the waterworks which they propose, and bring down soft water, such as Alderman Carter spoke of yesterday, into the borough, would it answer your purpose to take that water for your dyeing processes, and what price could you afford to give for it —The water would answer very well if the price would answer, but I am afraid that we have such a quantity to use in dyeworks that it would almost put it out of our power to give a very moderate price for it. 8563. Taking into account its pureness –Consider- ing everything, the quantity which we should have to use would amount to such a serious sum at the end of the year that I think scarcely anybody could compete with others in the trade who had nothing to pay for Water. 8564. What do you think you could afford to give per thousand gallons —That is a question which I have never gone into, because we have never had to buy water. I believe that something like 6d. to 7d. per thousand gallons is the price for which the Leeds Waterworks Company are now supplying water for manufacturing purposes, and if we used about 500,000 gallons a-day it would amount to a pretty considerable sum at the end of the year, almost more than we should get for all the dyeing. 8565. So that you could not stand a price like that? —We could not. 8566. If the river goes on to be continuously polluted as it has been of late years you will be obliged either to have recourse to some such source as the waterworks for a supply, or to let your dyeing go into other parts of the country –We should have to sink another well or two, that is all that I see that we should have to do. I do not think that the water would be so bad for perhaps eight or 10 months out of the 12 but that we could use it, because when there is a middling fresh plenty of water comes down and runs away quickly, and the stream runs clear, so that under any circumstances we could use it for some months in the year for dark colours. 8567. Do you wash your cloth at all in the river itself?—No ; we used to do so, but we have not done so for many years. 8568. Isaw some posts in the river with some boards, was that for the purpose of washing in the river ?— I think that they have been used for it, but I believe that no one is using that plan now. We had a large flat with rails round, where the men used to wash the goods, but we have ceased using it for washing for 10 years, I think, but we still keep it in use when we want to look at the pipes, or anything of that sort. 8569. Did you give it up on account of the pollution of the river ?–No, but we have other washing works where we think that we can do the washing better. 8570. How many hands do you employ —From 200 to 250. 8571. What becomes of the sewage matter from them —We have waterclosets. 8572. And the refuse goes down the town sewer 2 —Yes. 8573. Do you collect the urine from your men as far as you can *-No. 8574. It all goes —Yes. 8575. Is that the case with all your neighbours?— No. We used to have the conveniences amongst the stable manure. 8576. I think that I saw some suspicious-looking buildings over the river, outside the works near you? —What kind of buildings? 8577. Wooden buildings?—Yes. 8578. Some have privies over the river, have they not?—Some may have. The witness withdrew. Mr. JoHN ARNOTT (Leeds) examined. 8579. (Mr. Harrison.) You are the manager of the New Gas Company 2–Yes. 8580. When was that company established 2–In 1835. - 8581. In what part of the town are the works?— In Meadow Lane. 8582. Is that on the north or the sonth side of the river Aire –On the south side. 8583. Is it towards the east end or the west end of the town P-I am only a stranger in the town and therefore cannot state. 8584. Will you point out the place upon the map *— (The same was pointed out.) 8585. Is it at the lower part of the town 2–Yes. 8586. Are the works situated near the river ?–No, they are at a distance from the river. 8587. What do you do with the different matters which you have as refuse from your gasworks —The ashes are carted away, and we dispose of the lime; some is sold, and part of it is given away. 8588. To whom *-To farmers. The coke is sold to parties in the neighbourhood, to maltsters and other parties, such as founders. We have about 420 retorts going in the works, and probably we use about 33,000 tons of coal per annum. 8589. Have you read the evidence which was given to us yesterday by Mr. Smith, the engineer of the old gasworks —Yes. 8590. Does your experieuce correspond in the main with the evidence which he then gave?—It is much the same. 8591. Are your works on a larger or smaller scale than his -—I think much about the same; his are divided, and ours are all in one. 8592. He said that he used 38,000 tons of coal per annum –Yes, and we use 33,000 tons per annum. LEEDS. - Mr. J. Reffitt. 9 Nov. 1866. - Mr. J. Arnott. IC k 3 262 RIVERs commission :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LEEDS. Mr. J. Arnott. 9 Nov. 1866. The amount of gas which we made last year was about 324,000,000 cubic feet. 8593. What coal do you use -—Nearly one-half of cannel, and a considerable amount of common coking coal or gas coal; in fact, it varies very much, there are five or six different kinds of cannel. 8594. Does any of the refuse from your works find its way into the river ?–None whatever ; all the water which we use in cooling coke is evaporated in the furnaces, and it is only the surface water in the yard which passes away into the common sewer, that is surface water such as rain water. 8595. Are your works so situated that any refuse could find its way down to Mr. Tennant's flax works : —No, it is a long way distant. 8596. It could not possibly be from your works that he complained of gas refuse having, four or five years ago, been passed down the river to his injury — No, I do not think that there is anything which passes away from the works except merely surface water. 8597. Do you find at any period of the year that the lime refuse accumulates with you to any extent?— It has done so, but we have given people opportunity to take some of it away for nothing, and a part of it is sold. We have very little stock, only about eight tons, in store. But in order to do away with any nuisance from the lime, we, in the last few months, have been preparing new apparatus to purify, and we are going to use oxide of iron. We have hun- dreds of tons of oxide of iron made already, and in the course of a fortnight we shall use oxide of iron instead of lime, which will do away with a great deal of the nuisance. 8598. Shall you then do away with the lime alto- gether —Mostly. 8599. (Professor Way.) Does not oxide of iron answer the purpose without lime –In some cases it does, but with some coal it will not. 8600. It is possible to use oxide of iron for purifi- cation of gas without any lime at all, or with a very small quantity of lime –In the Newcastle Gasworks, where I was before coming here, I for eight years used nothing else but oxide of iron. 8601. Under Hills' patent 2–Yes, and I then made the oxide of iron myself. The test for bi-sulphate by Dr. Letheby of London gave only 4% grains. 8602. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you tried oxide of iron with the coal which you have here, so as to be able to answer the question whether it would be necessary to use any lime or not ?–No, but I have left provision for a very small quantity to be used for taking out the carbonic acid. The leaving in of the carbonic acid perhaps will affect the illuminating power. 8603. (Professor Way.) In some cases is not a little lime used with the oxide of iron itself?—Yes. 8604. In the case of the oxide of iron you get a material which can be utilized, either for manure or by being distilled, so as to get the ammonia from it, and the sulphur, and restore it again –Yes. Some furnaces are prepared for extracting sulphuric acid from it. - - 8605. You get a more concentrated and a more valuable material, and you have not a great bulk of material to cart out into the country, as in the case of lime, at the option of the purchaser —Just so. 8606. So that you believe that the introduction of the oxide of iron enables you to carry on your works with less objection, and that the waste product is more marketable?—Yes. As regards lime I could get no person to take it, but the use of the oxide of iron is no trouble to any person. 8607. Because it is a marketable commodity ?— Yes. 8608. It is taken away not only by farmers but by manufacturers ?–Yes. 8609. The tar I suppose is also taken —Yes. 8610. There is no probability that the demand for tar for certain colours will fall off, is there 2–The price for benzion is very low at present. Crude naphtha can hardly be sold; it is not bringing 1s. a gallon, whereas, a few years ago, it was 1s. 6d. or 2s. 8611. To what is that owing —To some colours going out of fashion, and others coming in. As regards distillation of tar, pitch is selling better now than it . some years ago, but other products are less sought after. 8612. Upon the whole you do not think that gas. works are likely to be under any difficulty in future years in getting rid of their materials 2–I think not, in taking away the tar and the ammonia from the works. There is scarcely anything else which is objection- able. 8613. You do not claim any right to throw your refuse into the river ?—No ; we are more careful now in taking the products and making money out of them. - 8614. (Mr. Harrison.) You have had considerable experience in gasworks –For the last 25 years. I was manager of the works in Newcastle for 19 years, and have only been here for a few months. 8615. Having had great experience, you consider that there is no hardship at all in making it peremptory upon the part of persons manufacturing gas to pass no refuse of any sort into a river or running stream 2 —Certainly not. 8616. (Professor Way.) What do you get for am- monia water —It is sold by the ton. I am not sure as to what the contract price is. 8617. Do you know what quantity of sulphate of ammonia can be got out of a ton of coal 2–It varies very much. 86.18. Take the average —Taking the average of a ton of coal, some yields about four ounces of sul- phate of ammonia to the gallon, some six ounces to the gallon, and some as high as 10 ounces to the gallon. 8619. That depends very much upon the nature of the coal —Yes, and upon the process of washing. We are now putting up a new apparatus, by which we shall be able to take as much ammonia water from the gas as we usually get by condensation. We shall be able to get double the amount by this process. 8620. The ammonia in gas is considered very ob- jectionable, is it not –Yes. 8621. Not only from causing a loss in value, but from being positively injurious to paper and leather, and things of that sort –Yes. 8622. So that it is one of the things which good gas should not contain in any large quantity ?—Yes; and it is profitable to the manufacturer to take it out; it pays very well. 8623. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you think that the process which you are going to adopt here might be introduced as a means of preventing a large accumu- lation of lime 2—Most works are adopting the new process of oxide of iron, and it is the only way that I know of doing away with complaints. 8624. Are you aware that in some cases lime is injurious to health, where persons are residing in the neighbourhood —Yes, in all cases. 86.25. Therefore, you think that the accumulation of it to any extent ought to be prevented ?–Yes; and it is from that cause that we are adopting this new process. 8626. (Professor Way.) I suppose that the reason why this process has not been adopted is on account of patent rights?—Yes. 8627. Mr. Hills has been in constant lawsuits?— Yes. For the last two years the general patent has been open. 8628. And you think that the obstacle to the general use of the process is removed 2–It is quite free to any person who wants to use it to do so. 8629. Therefore the use of lime in all probability will pass away –In fact it is to the advantage of every gasworks to substitute the oxide of iron; it is both cheaper and better. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to Tuesday next at 11 o'clock, at Bradford. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 263 Subsequently to the Inquiry at Leeds, the Commissioners received the following communication from the committee of the Canal Association of Great Britain :- “Canal Association. Aire and Canal Navigation Office, Leeds, 31st December 1866. I AM directed by the Committee of the Canal Association of Great Britain to forward to you a copy of Resolutions passed by them at a recent meeting, and to request that you will lay them before the Royal Com- mission appointed to inquire into the Pollution of Rivers. The Committee are of opinior that if their recommendations were adopted, the existing law would be sufficient to remedy the evils so justly complained of. I am, Sir, yours faithfully, (Signed) THOMAS WILSON, Hon, Sec. The Secretary to the Royal Commission on the Pollution of Rivers, &c. &c. &c.” ‘‘ Canal Association. At a Committee Meeting of the Canal Association (called to consider whether any and what steps should be taken in reference to the Royal Commission, ap- pointed to inquire into the Pollution of Rivers), held at the Queen's Hotel, Birmingham, on Friday, the 21st of December 1866. SIR, PRESENT: E. Leader Williams, Esq. W. B. Clegram, Esq. Thomas Wilson, Esq. W. C. Copperthwaite, Esq. Fereday Smith, Esq. Fereday Smith, Esq., in the Chair. It was Resolved :— (1.) That in the opinion of this Committee, it is desirable to prevent the passage of sewage into navigable streams or their feeders, except after it has passed through a filtering or settling tank, and that provision should be made for altogether preventing chemical refuse, whether liquid or solid, from being mixed with the sewage water, or from passing into navigable streams or their feeders. (2.) That the Committee strongly deprecate the prac- tice of throwing cinders, rubbish, excavations, or other solid or bulky matter into navigable streams or their feeders, and are prepared to recommend legislation with a view to prevent the evil. (3.) That in the opinion of this Committee the follow- ing legislative measures are necessary for securing the above objects. Power to riparian owners, owners of navigations and waterworks, municipal corporations, improve- ment commissioners, fishery boards, local boards of health, and sewer authorities, to prosecute for any of the above offences, when committed either within their jurisdiction, or at any point above their jurisdiction. Prosecution to lie against, and penalties to be inflicted on, the person causing the offence, as well as against the actual offender. Power to courts to grant injunction on the application of any party who can show reasonable grounds for applying for the same. (4.) That a copy of the above Resolutions be trans- mitted to the Secretary of the Royal Commission. (Signed) FEREDAY SMITH, Chairman. Bradford, Tuesday, 13th November 1866, PRESENT : ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THORNEHILL HARRISON, Esq. Professor John THOMAS WAY. WILLIAM BRAYSHAw, Esq. (Bradford), examined. 8630. (Chairman.) Are you mayor of this borough? —Yes. 8631. How long have you been resident in Bradford? —For nearly 50 years. 8632. Are you engaged in any business in Bradford * —Not at present. 8633. Have you been engaged in any business — Yes; I have been a builder all my life. 8634. What is the name of the stream or beck upon which Bradford stands 2—Bradford beck. 8635. Is that the principal stream flowing through Bradford 2–Yes. 8636. What condition was the Bradford beck in when you first knew it 2–It was very different to what it is at present. 8637. Was it in a purer state –Yes, a great deal; it has kept continually getting worse. 8638. I believe the population of Bradford has grown very rapidly during the last 50 years 2–Very rapidly. 8639. And its manufactures have increased very largely, have they not *—Yes. 8640. With the growth of population and the increase of manufactures the pollution of the river has also increased ?–Yes. 8641. Refuse material from manufactures has been passed into the river as the readiest method of getting rid of it, has it not *—Yes. 8642. Do you know whether any inconveniences have been experienced in Bradford in consequence of the pollution of the beck 2–The course of the beck has been continually straitened by the refuse being put into it in various ways, and we have had very serious floods in Bradford. I have seen a cart swim across a very little distance from this spot, we have had several very bad floods, and much damage has been done to 8643. In consequence of the obstruction in the beck by solid material having been thrown into it?—Yes; the obstruction continually accumulates. 8644. Have any manufacturers, either within the borough or without the borough, as far as you know, thrown their furnace ashes into the beck –Yes. 8645. Both within and without the borough 2–I know they have done so within the borough, and I have no doubt they have done so without. 8646. Do you know whether foundation material has also been tipped into the beck occasionally 2–I do not think that that has been generally done, it may have been at times. 8647. Has there been any jurisdiction exercised in order to prevent that kind of pollution up to this time 2 —Very little has been done. 8648. Have you as a corporation any control over the beck now —If the officers could only catch the parties when they were putting the refuse in, the parties would be summoned, but they generally manage to do it where no one can see them, at least in the worst cases they do. 8649. Supposing you have jurisdiction within the borough, have you any jurisdiction outside the borough to prevent this form of pollution ?–No. 8650. Then if you did all that could be done within the borough, and spent all the money that might be desirable to remedy this state of things, you would still be liable to suffer from the misconduct of persons outside the borough 2–Yes. 8651. Would it be necessary, for the proper regula- tion of the river, that the jurisdiction should be as extensive as the river itself?—Yes. 8652. That you should have power over pollutions of every form, and over the entire river area and its tributaries –Yes; I believe that that would be a very good thing. - LEEDS. Mr. J. Arnott. 9 Nov. 1866. BRADFORD. W. Brayshaw, Esq. property. 13 Nov. 1866. - K k 4 264 RIVERS COMMISSION: —MINUTES OF EVIDENUE, BRADEORD. W. Brayshaw, Esq. 13 Nov. 1866. - J. V. Godwin, Esq. 8653. Have there been any discussions in your town council with regard to the utilization of the sewage 2–There was a great deal a few years since, and once they talked about trying to utilize it; it was said that much money might be made by it, but no result came from the discussion. 8654. The whole of the sewage now goes into the Bradford beck 2–Yes. 8655. What becomes of it after that you do not know, except that it flows down the polluted stream to some other place 2–Yes, it goes down to Shipley from here. 8656. Have you been threatened by any parties with injunctions or lawsuits for polluting the Bradford beck 2–I am not aware that there have been any; I am told that there has been one in the case of a Mr. Constable. 8657. Are there any other remarks that you wish to offer the Commission ?—ſt seems to me that if we had the same control over the becks that we have in the case of other nuisances, it would be a great im- provement; suppose, for instance, that there was an accumulation of ashes from any mill placed so that we knew it was intended to go into the beck, if we had power to remove it, and charge the owners with the expense, it would be an improvement. As a proof of the beck and the canal and all those places getting so much worse, I may state that when I was a boy I bathed in a place called Cheese Hole, in Thornton Road; that now is completely like mud. I learned to swim in the canal down here, where now, if any- one puts a rod down, it will almost stand in the water without going to the bottom, the water is so thick. I do not think there has been any swimming there for the last 20 years. So far as the corporation is con- cerned and the borough, you may be aware, perhaps, that there is a very extensive system of drainage going on ; we are doing our utmost to drain the borough, but we cannot drain the borough without polluting the streams. Seeing that the public look to the corporation for carrying out a system of drainage, we think that we have a right to look to the Govern- ment for assistance after we have done our utmost. 8658. You think that the Government might con- sider the matter and see whether they could afford you greater facilities for utilizing the sewage of the borough 2–Yes; we can do no more than we do ; we cannot drain the borough without polluting the beck. The witness withdrew. John VENIMORE GODw1N, Esq. (Bradford), examined. 8659. (Chairman.) Are you engaged in any busi- ness 2–Yes, I am a stuff merchant. 8660. Have you lately served the office of mayor in the borough of Bradford 2–Yes. 8661. How long have you known Bradford 2–A little over 44 years. 8662. Do you remember the state of the beck and of the streams at that time as compared with their condition now *—There was some little pollution near the centre of the town, but it was very small; it has been increasing with the growth of population and with the growth of trade ; it has extended up those streams, it exists more or less throughout the whole of the borough wherever those streams go. 8663. And beyond the borough 2–Yes; Bradford is in a basin, streams come down the valleys and unite in one, and they all run down the valley to Shipley, and then enter the river Aire. 8664. Bradford, I believe, has grown very largely in the last 50 years in population, has it not *—Yes : it has grown very largely in population. You will have a table put before you ; but the population does not represent the growth of the trade. The census in 1841, for the borough, was 66,000; in 1851 it was 103,000; and in 1861 it was 106,000; but during the time when the population was nearly stationary a very large increase of the trade had been going on. For instance, the Board of Trade returns show that our exports, not from Bradford, but from the worsted district of which Bradford is the centre, were about 9,750,000l. in 1862; more than 13,250,000l. in 1863 : about 16,250,000l. in 1864; about 18,750,000l. in 1865, and they may possibly reach 20,000,000/.. this €al'. y 8665. So rapidly is the trade of the district in- creasing —Yes; owing to the introduction of ma- chinery, the productive power has increased more rapidly than the population. The contamination of the streams has increased rather according to the growth of the trade than according to the increase of the population. 8666. As one might anticipate, seeing that the streams are used for the processes of manufacture in one way or another ?--It has increased recently from the refuse of the dyeworks, and from soapsuds and refuse of various other kinds produced in manufactures. 8667. Do you think that there is any probability of this rapid progress being checked by the polluted condition of the streams, unless something is done to prevent the pollution, or to overcome the evil?—No, I hardly think that that will be the case, because we have waterworks that give us an ample supply of water, otherwise trade would be checked. 8668. Your waterworks which have cost you so large a sum of money are beneficial for a double pur- pose, namely, for domestic and for trade purposes 2 —Yes, for both. 8669. In laying out those works, I suppose you have had in view the accommodation of trade equally with the social comfort of the inhabitants —Yes, quite so ; they have made provision for a large exten- sion of trade. 8670. That being so, do you think that you would be justified in extending the trade and further polluting the river ?—We shall extend our trade at whatever cost, even if it results in increased pollution. 8671. Would you say that if means can be found by which a great proportion of this pollution can be prevented without injury to trade, such regulations should be put in force 2–Yes, decidedly, we should all be very glad of anything that can be done. 8672. Those regulations should be as extensive as the sources of pollution ?–Quite so. 8673. It would not do to make an exception with regard to Yorkshire, or any part of it, but if Parlia- ment legislates you think it should legislate for the entire trade of the kingdom –Yes, decidedly so. 8674. Is there much dyeing carried on in and near Bradford?—Avery large amount; the principal part of the goods belonging to the trade are dyed in and about Bradford. 8675. I believe the Bradford goods are of a finer quality than the general trade of Yorkshire –Some portions of them are, but I should not say that the wools which we use are finer than those which are used in the Leeds trade, they are a different class of goods entirely. 8676. You do not manufacture broadcloths 2–We manufacture hardly any cloths here, they are chiefly worsted goods. 8677. Like the Galashiels manufactures —Some portion of it is, but not very much, we use woollen yarns here to some extent. - 8678. Do you know whether any of the Yorkshire trade has been absorbed by the Scotch, in consequence of their superior advantages in water P-None of our Bradford trade has of late years; it was the case some time ago when Bradford trade opened out as a fancy trade. A portion of it went to Glasgow, but I do not think the change had any reference to the water, they got the start of us in the fancy trade I think, but it is the other way now. 8679. Where do the wools principally come from that are used in Bradford and the neighbourhood, are they English or foreign wools?—I should think that we use quite as great a weight of foreign wool in RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 265 Bradford as of English wool. We consume here more English wool than is consumed anywhere else. We have it from all parts of the world; coarse and fine and every description of wool is used here. 8680. About what weight of wool per annum is brought into Bradford and consumed –We have no means of ascertaining that, we might roughly calculate it from the exports from this district. 8681. Does the import of wool bear a proportion to the export of goods?–In giving you the amount of exports I took it from the Board of Trade returns. They are under the heads of “Worsted Stuffs,” and also “Woollen and Worsted Yarns.” We do not ex- port woollen yarns, we import them, all the yarns which are exported from this district are worsted 8682. I suppose you consider that whoever drew up this Commission took a very wise view when they inserted these words, that “the inquiry as to such pro- “ cesses and manufactories should be how far the pollu- “ tions can be got rid of without injury to trade?”—Ido. 8683. That you think is an element which must come into the calculation ?–Yes, it should be some system which should not injure trade. It should also be not too expensive, and I think it should be com- pulsory, so that all will be brought in. Generally speaking, if a system like that is brought in, I think you will find that everybody in this district will be desirous to assist in carrying it out. I am sure that those gentlemen who assist, in the way of trade, in making these nuisances, simply do so for want of a better mode of getting rid of the refuse. 8684. I have no doubt that you have paid attention to the policy of our Government, and I daresay you are aware that it generally contrives to let things alone rather than to over legislate 2–Yes, and that I think is a very sound principle. 8685. Do you think that any permissive form of legislation will effect the improvement contemplated in this case ?–No. 8686. I mean permissive to this or to that town, or this or that manufacturer, to put in force the remedial measures which may be recommended ?–If it were made permissive generally, or if certain towns had the power to make it compulsory throughout their jurisdiction, the law might be carried out; and you would find Bradford and many other towns disposed to do so, but we should be prevented here from doing so by the complication of our streams. I think that the whole of the West Riding of Yorkshire ought to be taken together, otherwise we could not deal with the question. 8687. Are you aware that the common law of England is powerful to forbid a nuisance of this kind, but that it is not simple and easy to make the power available 2–It does not do it, at all events. 8688. You know, do you not, that a person may be restrained by an injunction in chancery from com- mitting a nuisance —Such a law would be very diffi- cult of application in Bradford. It would be difficult to fix the offence upon the offending individual. 8689. Taking that to be the law at present, and that it compels, as it were, one neighbour to prosecute another, do you think that that is a desirable law, and that you are to be told, “There is the common law of “ the land, and there is the remedy you may resort “to ?”—That plan was tried on one of our becks to a very considerable extent some years ago, but it was abandoned because it was found practically inoperative. 8690. In the event of any law being enacted with regard to the pollution of rivers it might be necessary that powers should be given to acquire lands, sup- posing irrigation is proved to be the best mode of getting rid of town sewage. As the law at present stands you must appeal to the Lands Clauses Con- solidation Act for arbitration powers. Is that, in your opinion, the wisest and best method of proceeding that could be devised with regard to the purchase of land 2–As far as my experience goes as chairman of our Streets Improvements, it is a very dear and costly mode of acquiring land. 8691. Could you suggest any mode that would be less costly —I think not. We have acquired land to 17159.-2, a large extent under those powers, and we have had to pay extravagant amounts. 8692. Do you think that the machinery of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act affords any facilities to grasping individuals —I do not think that the provisions are exceedingly unfair. I think that where compulsory powers are given you must expectto pay. 8693. Where you have to prove the value of the injury done to land by evidence, is it not possible to multiply that evidence to any extent 2–Yes, to a great extent. 8694. The law expenses are very great, are they not ?—They are very heavy. We avoid them, as far as we can, by private negotiation, and by limiting the number of witnesses by agreement. I am not pre- pared to take a general objection to the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, for I think that individuals should be protected where the property is taken from them, but it is a very costly mode of proceeding. 8695. Perhaps some check might be put upon the proceedings if persons who litigate vexatiously should be mulcted in some of the extra costs they had forced upon their opponent 2–That is the case at present. If you make an offer, and the verdict is below it, the costs fall upon the party who has caused them. There are several points in working the Lands Clauses Con- solidation Act on which I think Parliament has had sufficient experience to lay down fixed rules; for instance, with regard to the extra per-centage to be put upon the value in consideration of the fact that the land is taken compulsorily. Those points are open at present for the jury or arbitrators, but I think certain rules might be laid down. 8696. During your mayoralty did you have any discussions at all with regard to the utilization of the sewage 3–None whatever. 8697. Had the corporation any complaints brought against them for the pollutions they caused ?–-Yes, we have had notice of proceedings on behalf of Mr. Stansfield. 8698. Have you a branch canal which has been very much polluted also 2–Yes. - 8699. Have any proceedings been taken with regard to that canal 2–Some private parties did take proceedings against the canal proprietors, and I believe that an injunction binding them to remedy the evil comes into force this month. 8700. What will be the result of that injunction ? —They will find it very difficult to supply the canal with clean water. There has been a talk of selling the canal to the Leeds and Liverpool company, in which case they might pump clean water up. It has often been said that it might be well to close that canal and form a tramroad or an ordinary road down to Shipley, and do away with it as a canal. I think it is impossible for anyone who has not lived in Bradford to conceive the extent of nuisance that arises from that canal in summer time, the distance it reaches from its banks, and the intensity of its smell. 8701. The water of the canal is comparatively stagnant —Yes. 8702. In that respect it differs from the beck, which is more or less in motion, does it not ?—Yes, I can recollect when the canal was quite clean. 8703. Do you know whether the beck has been impeded to any serious extent by solids which have been thrown into it?—I do not think so many solids have been thrown into it of late as used to be thrown in. I recollect when it was customary for some dyers to put their ashes and dye wares in, so that in case of a flood they could be sent down the beck, but I do not think that that has gone on so much lately. 8704. Is that done to any extent now 2–I have no doubt of it. 8705. I suppose you would say that the jurisdiction of the borough should exist outside it as well as within it 2–Yes. 8706. (Mr. Harrison.) Does not the beck pass through private property to a considerable extent 2– Yes. 8707. Are the banks built upon 2–It is built upon in the centre of the borough, and the beck is arched over in many places, I, 1 BRADFORD, J. V. Godwin, Esq. i8 Nov. 1866. 266 Rivºrs CoMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADE ORD. J. V. Godwin. Esq. 13 Nov. 1866. W. T. McGowen, Esq. 8708. May those buildings have communication direct with the beck, so as to pass pollution into it 3– The ordinary sewers of the town discharge themselves into the bećk. They used to discharge themselves quite in the centre of the town. They have lately been taken a little below. 3709. Those buildings above the beck could with ease pass polluted water into the beck, but it would be difficult to point out the exact places?–Yes. 8710. It seems necessary, in a case like Bradford, to give to the town authorities the power of keeping the i.eck which runs through their borough in a pure state?—It can never be dealt with in any other way. 8711. It would appear requisite that there should be some persons with authority over the beck, and who might call upon the Bradford authorities to keep it pure if they did not attend to their duty −Yes, if the law was general we should not complain ; if we had the power to prevent others we could not complain of being prevented ourselves. 8712. You think that the borough authorities ought to look after individuals?—Yes. 8713. But there must be an authority ab extra that should have the power to call upon the borough authorities to keep the beck in order 2–Yes, the streams should be kept pure down to the sea. 87.14, I suppose there was a very slight increase in the population of the borough of Bradford during the 10 years from 1851 to 1861, but in the township itself there appears to have been a diminution of some- thing like 4,000, is that so –Yes. 8715. How do you account for that. diminution ?— By the increase of buildings of a different class ; cottages have not increased in the borough. 8716. In those 10 years a large extent of warehouses was built, does that account for it to any extent —I do not think it does, I do not believe the returns of 1861 were correct. The circumstances of the trade would account for a very large portion of it ; we had at an early period a large body of hand-combers, but combing began to be done by machinery, and the class of hands was somewhat changed ; we had fewer hands of the class of combers, but they were paid more. The pro- ductive power of the trade of the town was very largely increased by the introduction of machinery, more espe- cially by machine-combing instead of hand-combing. 8717. You gave us just now the extraordinary in- crease in the manufactures from 1861 to 1865 or 1866, whilst there was apparently no great increase in the population that you accounted for by the use of increased machinery?–We believe that the population has been increasing since 1861, we estimate now that it is something like 124,000 or 125,000, but it is only an estimate. - 8718. How do you account for that rapid change in the population again –We cannot introduce ma- chinery perpetually that will dispense with hand labour as was done in the case of the combing machines. 8719. The canal company I suppose had power to take water from the beck originally when the canal was formed 2–I think they claimed all the water and all the sewage of the town. 8720. In what year was the canal made?—I cannot say. - 8721. Is it many years ago —Beyond the time that I can recollect. 8722. Was the beck at that time in a comparatively pure state?-Above the centre of the town, as far. back as my recollection goes, there was some little pollution, a few suds went into it, and a few dye wares, but not very many ; the pollution was only to a very small extent; the beck was left clean for a considerable part of the day. 8723. Therefore the canal authorities have had just ground of complaint against the polluters of the river ? —As to those legal points it is difficult to speak. I think the canal company have failed in their duty, I think they were bound to acquire a good supply of water, but differences of opinion will exist upon those points. - 8724. There appear to be a great many ashpits in your borough and cesspits, is that so *—We have a very large number of ashpits; the borough surveyor will be able to give you the particulars as to them, because the corporation empties them all. 8725. Is the system of waterclosets not generally carried out in the lower class of houses 2–No, not at all, or to a very small extent. 8726. Is the corporation put to any considerable expense in emptying those cesspits 2–I think the last contract for two years was something over 5,400l. 8727. (Chairman.) Have you anything further to add 2–No. I may say that I concur generally in the evidence that has been given by the mayor. I re- member when these streams were very clear, for I used both to bathe and fish in them, and I hope to live to see the canal clear again. The witness withdrew. WILLIAM THoMAs McGowen, Esq. (Bradford), examined. 8728. (Chairman.) You are town clerk of this borough 2–Yes. - - 8729. I believe you have not long held the ap- pointment 2–No, I have only recently been appointed. 8730. You had previously occupied a legal position in Liverpool?—Yes, I was deputy town clerk for 14 years in Liverpool. 8731. You have paid special attention to sanitary questions?—Yes; amongst other things I had charge of the administration of the sanitary laws in Liverpool during my period of office there. 8732. Have you had occasion to study the question of river pollutions?–Yes. It was forced upon the attention of the authorities of Liverpool in a slight measure, but by no means to the same degree as upon the attention of the authorities of this town. Objections were made to the discharge of the sewage of Liverpool into the river Mersey on the ground of alleged deposits being made on the banks, but the width and depth of the stream and the rapidity of the tidal current greatly facilitated the carrying away of offensive matter, if they did not effectually carry it away. Here the conditions are quite reversed. 8733. Have you a copy of the charter of incorpo- ration to put in 2–Yes. - 8734. The borough of Bradford was incorporated on the 9th June 1847, was it not *—Yes, this is a copy of the charter of incorporation (handing in the same). 8735. Various local Acts of Parliament have been passed and have come into force since that period? e-Yes, 8736. Can you specify them —The first Act was that which is called the Bradford Improvement Act, 13th and 14th of Victoria, passed in 1850. That Act incorporated nearly all the provisions of the Public Health Act of 1848, and a number of the provisions of the Towns Police Clauses Act of 1847, and of the provisions of the Towns Improvement Clauses Act of 1847. In consequence of incorporating the sections of the Public Health Act, the corporation have had to administer the Local Government Act of 1858, the Local Government Act of 1861, and also that of 1863, so that all those Acts are now in force within this borough. 8737. Have you enacted any byelaws?—Yes, we have. You are aware that under the provisions of the Municipal Corporations Act, 5th and 6th William 4th, all corporations are empowered to make byelaws with regard to matters affecting the comfort of the inhabitants; under that power the corporation of Bradford did, on the 27th May 1848, frame a code of byelaws which I will now hand in (handing in the same). - - - 8738. Have they not been amended since that time? —No ; I should also say that the Local Government . Act of 1858 abrogated the specific directions as to buildings contained in the Act of 1848, and in lieu of those specific directions gave authority to local boards to frame byelaws for regulating buildings; under the powers of the Act of 1858 the corporation framed a code of byelaws; that code they have altered two or three times, and in the revised form it has recently RIvº Rs CoMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:- 267 received the sanction of the Secretary of State ; a copy also of that I will supply. - 8739. Does the Bradford corporation hold any pro- perty in the way of markets, gasworks, waterworks, or market tolls —Yes, all except gasworks. 8740. Do they possess any landed property —Yes; they are exclusive proprietors of the waterworks : they are also exclusive proprietors under an Act of Parliament which they obtained last session for the purchase of the markets and of the market tolls, and they have the management of that property. Under the Local Government Act of 1858 they have ob- tained, with the sanction of the Secretary of State, provisional orders, followed by supplemental Acts of Parliament, for taking property for street improve- ments; and they have in this way acquired in different parts of the town buildings and lands for improvements, portions of which now remain on hand. , I should mention, as to property, that they have established baths and washhouses of which they are the proprietors. Again, under the Burial Acts they have acquired possession of a public cemetery of which they are the proprietors. 8741. Is there a town hall in Bradford 2–No, but we have offices and we have committee rooms. 8742. Does this building (St. George's Hall) belong to the corporation ?–No. 8743. You have to hire rooms ?–Yes; the only suite of apartments that we have are those which you have seen in Swain Street. 8744. Are they adequate for the business of the corporation ?—They are certainly inadequate. 8745. What was the population of Bradford at the last census, and what is the estimated population now —It is now supposed to be above 130,000. I am told that it was 106,218 at the last census. 8746. What is the rateable value of the property in the borough now 2–376,038/.last year. 8747. Is the soil of Bradford beck in any way vested in the corporation ?–That is a matter not very clearly defined. The proprietors of the property on each margin of the beck have hitherto claimed a right to the soil and freehold of one-half of it, and I believe that in many cases that claim has been allowed; I am, how- ever, by no means clear that they were entitled to it, but they have claimed the right and they have exercised it. 8748. Supposing you should wish to deal with that beck for the purpose of general improvement, such as walling the sides, regulating its width, and pitching its invert, so as to pass refuse at a uniform level, would a special Act be required to give you the ne- cessary powers ?–Clearly. 8749. Would it be impossible to frame a general Act that would give that power to all corporations? —We should want an Act, but a general Act would be far preferable. - 87.50. Is there any water power within the borough for mill purposes; I mean for waterwheels 2–Yes. 8751. Are there any mills within the borough — I know of two or three mills. 8752. That mill power, whatever it may be, must necessarily be purchased if it is to be dealt with ?— Yes, if it were to be interfered with injuriously. 8753. Statutory powers would enable you to sweep away the mills as they might obstruct the stream — I think that the mills on the streams are now of such an age that the owners have a right to use the water, and that they could not be divested of that right ex- cept in the usual way by statutory powers and com- pensation. - 8754. Do you think that the Lands Clauses Act provides the best conceivable machinery for compul- sory purchase and taking possession of lands and properties which are required for improvements?—I do not think it does. - - 8755. Do you not think, after the experience you have had, that a more simple process, and quite as just to both parties, might be devised which would be more efficacious 2–I am sure of it, and I will give you an illustration on that matter. In 1864 I had to prepare a sanitary bill for Liverpool for the purpose of dealing with the courts and alleys ; we knew that we should have to take large quantities of property of a certain value compulsorily, and that if the powers of the Lands Clauses Act had to be put into opera- tion we should, by means of the cost that would be cast upon us, be frustrated in our object. We there- fore arranged that if there should be a dispute as to the valuation, the parties should not have the option to say, as they have now, “that is a point to be “decided under the Lands Clauses Act,” and make us go to arbitration, but that we should be at liberty to take the parties before a jury. Practically, the course, under the Lands Clauses Act, is that parties whose property is required may compel the body who are seeking to take the property to go to arbitration; this generally means the appointment of two arbitrators and an umpire, the evidence is all written down, much time is consumed, and an enormous expense incurred. 8756. In point of fact it is a very lengthy and costly mode of inquiry —Yes. 8757. Have you ever compared the relative value of the property which has been brought into question with the amount of the legal expenses upon an arbi- tration 2–Yes; but it would be impossible to give you any per-centage. I have no doubt that great contests have taken place before arbitrators upon rights of way where the matter in dispute has not been worth much. Under ordinary circumstances it is as expensive to contest a question before arbitrators when the matter in dispute is of small value as when it is of great value, because there is the same ma- chinery to be employed. There is a long string of witnesses to be examined, learned gentlemen to be called in, a formal investigation to take place, and the evidence to be written down, much more redundant evidence than judges permit, the result of which is that the authorities who have to buy the property are in a manner constrained, and very frequently as a matter of prudence, go a little bit beyond what would be the fair value, I mean in special cases, in order to save expense and settle the matter. 8758. You will see no doubt that private rights would be very largely involved in the prevention of river pollutions if legislation were to take place for that purpose?—I entirely acquiesce in that, and the valuation question is of the first magnitude. 8759. If a cheap and simple law could be enacted to deal with that question, it would be well worthy of the consideration of Parliament when the other great measure was being considered f-Yes. I consider that that is a matter of the greatest importance as affecting any corporation where the acquisition of property is con- cerned, the cost of it being the most serious element. 8760. If the sewage is to be carried beyond the boundaries of the borough land must be acquired upon which to dispose of it, and new rights must be acquired over that land. If, therefore, a simple mode of arrange- ment can be devised by which those rights should be acquired, I suppose you think that all parties would be benefited thereby ?—There is no question about it. Certainly there is required some more simplified and less costly mode of getting at the real value of pro- perty. I have no doubt of this, because I have had professionally to tax bills of costs of gentlemen where they have succeeded, and I have had to take consider- able sums off their claims. I know by experience that it would be much to the benefit of the vendor if a less expensive mode of dealing with these matters was devised, because all the money that is taxed off a bill comes out of the purchase money which the vendor receives. 8761. Do the corporation themselves cause any nuisance to the beck that runs through the town 2–We say not, and for this reason; in the first place, the refuse has been discharged into the beck for a very long time, and although by the adoption of water- closets there may be an additional quantity of solid matter sent in now, compared with what went in for- merly, yet the increased volume of water that is sent down, I mean the water collected from other sources than the river, such as catchment water, more than compensates for the additional inconvenience which has arisen in that form. BRADFORD. W. T. McGowen, Esq. 13 Nov. 1866. L 1 2 268 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD, W. T. McGowen, Esq. 13 Nov. 1866. 8762. I suppose you would feel bound to confess that so far as you permit, under your regulations, sewage to flow into the beck you pollute the beck — No doubt of it, but, as you know, that is the misfortune of all inland districts. 8763. The question is, whether or not that can be prevented, and when I use that term I mean prevented in a common-sense way, not in a ruinous way, but in a way that shall be beneficial to all parties, and within the means of all parties concerned —Yes, subject to those conditions, prevention would be a boon. 8764. Are there any other polluters of the streams besides the corporation of Bradford —ſ should say that the pollutions caused by the corporation are in- significant as compared with other pollutions. 8765. Whatever amount of pollution may flow from Bradford is only a fractional part of the whole of the pol- lutions that are passed into the Aire —No doubt of it. 8766. Suppose that the people of Bradford were to do their utmost to prevent this form of pollution, either by sewage, irrigation, or otherwise, do you think that their example, however clear and obvious it might be, would necessarily be followed by the other towns lying above and below you ?—One does not find that to be so in practice. 8767. Therefore, although you as a corporation might be wise enough and willing to do what was necessary, you think there would still be required some general measure in order to compel all parties to do alike —I have not a doubt of it. 8768. Does the water come down to you at Brad- ford polluted from above —I understand that it does. 8769. Is the river also polluted by the towns below? —Yes; I believe there is no question of that. 8770. What is the common law with regard to the pollution of a river ?—Really it is an impracticable law; for supposing that a gentleman wished to com- plain of a person who polluted the river, and that he was bold enough and that his purse was heavy enough to induce him to embark upon an indictment, the first difficulty that he would meet with would be to prove who was the offender; and as a rule, inasmuch as an indictment must be at the instance of some one as the prosecutor, partly from fear of expense, partly from good feeling, and partly from the difficulty which there would be in fixing upon anyone as the cause of the nuisance, the offenders being so many, the common law becomes absolutely inoperative, with a few exceptions. Now and then one hears of an in- dictment succeeding, where somebody can be fixed upon as producing a given nuisance, but the cases are by no means many. 8771. May not the success of those indictments in particular cases be an intolerable hardship to the individual concerned when he is mulcted, and every other offender escapes the penalty of his misdoing 2– I think it is a very great hardship. 8772. In that way one man might be ruined who had not done more than perhaps 10,000 other persons in the country?—No doubt of it; and if you put that individual, by reason of legal proceedings, under some constraint to expend money, to the extent of the neces- sary outlay you place him at a correlative disadvan- tage with other manufacturers who are left free from a like obligation. 8773. Have you at all considered the question of sewage irrigation ?—Yes. 8774. With reference to its practicability, or as to its difficulties?—Yes, I have. On one occasion I accompanied our esteemed friend, Mr. Newlands, the borough engineer of Liverpool, and Dr. Trench on a mission to different parts of the country, to see whether we could obtain any information that would enable us to utilize the sewage of Liverpool. 8775. At what conclusion did you arrive?—We were rather in favour of the notion. Of course my views at that time were directed to Liverpool, but in a mere sanitary view we saw nothing better than we were doing. We were on the margin of the river Mersey, and by means of the river could get rid of the sewage, so far as it was a nuisance, and we considered that that was the best way to deal with it. 8776. At Liverpool you have a great tidal estuary 2 —Yes, with 20 feet fall of tide. 8777. And there is a sandy mouth and banks out- side the estuary 2–Yes. 8778. Have you considered what legal difficulties you would have to contend with if you were put under constraint at Bradford to utilize the sewage –Yes, I have, and they are very alarming. The legal diffi- culties would be great, because virtually our powers cease with the limits of the borough. I speak of things as they are. 8779. (Mr. Harrison.) But you would have com- pulsory powers, would you not –Yes, under a recent Act, the Sewage Utilization Act we might go a further distance for the purpose of having sewage works. That might be done by agreement, which, I must tell you, means in practice going with your cap in hand to people through whose land you wish to pass, and accepting whatever they may be pleased to give you. And then again I take it that this would be a certain consequence, viz., that if by our operations we annoyed another village or town, we should not be placed above the common law. We should be fixed upon as specific offenders, and the neighbouring village or town might ask us to account for our deeds. Then comes the question, where is the place to be found suitable for the operation supposing that the most liberal overtures on the part of the corporation were made. 8780. (Chairman.) You fancy that there would be legal and other difficulties in your way ?—Yes, I do, in dealing with Bradford per se. 8781. Would one of the difficulties be the difficulty of providing the necessary funds 2—On that ques- tion I would say yes, there would be a great difficulty. If I were permitted to give expression to my opinion it would be this, that as these operations are of national importance, and the measures neces- sary to carry them out may assume national propor- tions also, the Government ought to do what they do not do now; that is, give their assistance by advances from the Public Works Commissioners. As things are now, all the money which public authorities want they have to get by going into the money market and competing with commerce for it; and yet having no commercial object to serve, they are forced to pay a high rate of interest, and return the money in a com- paratively short time. This is a point which I think is entitled to very grave consideration, and I wish to take this opportunity of urging it upon the con- sideration of the Commissioners, that with regard to any works of this kind that may be undertaken by local authorities at their own expense, they should have a right to appeal to the Government to assist them, and should be enabled to obtain funds from the Public Works Commissioners repayable by instalments over a long period, and at an easy rate of interest. This is what the Government can do if they will. 8782. What is the amount of the present debt of the borough 2–About 1,000,000/. 8783. What rate of interest do they pay ?—About 44 per cent. besides expenses. 8784. Supposing you could obtain the money from the Exchequer Loan Commissioners, as a loan was obtained for Lancashire at 3% per cent., what annual saving would that be to the borough 2–That is a matter of calculation, but of course there would be a saving of one per cent. upon the interest. Then the great boon would be not merely in a reduction of interest, but in the longer period given for repayment. 8785. Would there not be something like 10,000/. a year saved —Yes. - 8786. If you could treat with the Government and induce them to lend you the whole of your capitalized debt at 3% per cent, and give you 30 years for the repayment —I would ask for 50 years for works of this kind. Lord Redesdale has consented to give in some instances 50 years for local works. He allowed 50 'ears for a work that is of a very kindred nature to this, 8787. What security could you offer to the Govern- ment —We could offer the whole of the property of Bradford in the shape of a rate. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 269 8788. Therefore the Legislature could not say that it was a riskful mode of laying out the money, because it would be a very safe basis for a loan, while an enormous amount of good might be effected by it It would be so safe a basis that my legal friends will tell you it is now a very common thing in settlements and wills to give power to trustees to invest funds, not merely upon land or government securities, but upon securities of this description, and that they prefer them to railway debentures in good companies. 8789. What is the amount of your local rates in the pound?—I think it is something like 6s. 8790. That there would be a saving of 10,000l. per annum I think must be quite clear to everyone, and it would be an enormous boon to Bradford 2–Unques- tionably it would be. 8791. And it could not injure anyone else in the kingdom –It could not injure anyone ; it would be an unmixed benefit. In my opinion it is assistance which local authorities are entitled to ask for at the hands of the Government, and the money would be expended for the good of the public, because the nation at large participates in the well-being of its district towns. 8792. I know that you have paid sufficient attention to sanitary legislation and sanitary works to have formed an opinion as to whether, if money has been judiciously laid out upon them, an equivalent has been obtained in improved public health, and in a direct and indirect saving of the rates, poors rates especially, and in the general welfare of the community?—Yes, I have long entertained a very strong opinion upon that subject, so strong that I took occasion once to submit to a meeting over which Lord Shaftesbury presided a statement showing what the actual gain to a community and to each family would be from an expenditure of money for sanitary purposes. 8793. If you paid five per cent. in the gross for the loan of a million, that would be 50,000l. per annum, but you pay more than that ?—Yes, including ex- penses and stamps. 8794. You pay much more than five per cent., having regard to a sinking fund 2–Certainly we do. 8795. Six or seven per cent. —Yes, with a sinking fund. 8796. If you could capitalize all your loans and borrow money at 3% per cent., an annual per-centage of something like 5l. 5s. 0d. would clear that off in 30 years ?—Yes, and if the period were prolonged it would make it easier still. This is a point that I would respectfully take the freedom of urging most earnestly upon the attention of you gentlemen, not merely as to the particular question upon which you are embarked, but as to all sanitary operations. 8797. Have you formed any opinion as to any method of getting rid of the refuse from the town 2 —I have thought a good deal about it, but it is a question that is surrounded with considerable diffi- culty. The first question that presents itself is this, that any measure for the purpose must be of a general character, for instance, in this case it must deal with the whole of the water-shed of this part of the country. How that is to be done I cannot venture to say. Then the next question is, what would you do with the refuse If you sent it to the ocean you would effectually get rid of it, but of course the products which one hopes might be utilized would be then thrown away. One great object in view for any district situated like this is, that the products may not be thrown away, but how that is to be done I offer no opinion. Everyone feels that nothing should be thrown away that can be saved, and if refuse can be utilized it ought to be. I believe that the next diffi- culty is the configuration of the land in this part of the country. 8798. Have you considered the question of a con- servancy board for the regulation of the entire dis- trict, and the prevention of further pollutions?—Yes, I have. 8799. And the elements out of which such a board might be constituted 2–It would be going almost into a perfect scheme, but I may state generally that this conclusion has presented itself to my mind, that unless the question is taken up as an imperial one, and unless the management is in the hands of officers connected with the Privy Council or the Govern- ment in their sanitory department, local assistance would have to be called in ; and I see no other mode of establishing a conservancy than getting delegates to form a board who were connected with the districts BRADFORD, W. T. McGowen, Esq. 13 Nov. 1866. - to be affected by the operations proposed to be carried out. I might illustrate the matter in this way. Supposing any great outfall works to be made, either for the sewage to be carried to the ocean, or to some district where it could be intercepted, or cleansed and returned as water to the river, you must have an uniform action all down the districts to be affected; one place or person could not do it alone, and I fancy that none of them would consent to be excluded from participation in the jurisdiction. 8800. Are there smoke prevention clauses in the local Acts for Bradford 2–Yes. - 8801. Are they similar to those which they have in Liverpool?—They are more stringent. 8802. Are they put in force as energetically as they are in Liverpool —No, not at all. 8803. Did you have to put them in force in Liver- pool?—Yes. - 8804. Was that attended with any beneficial effect or otherwise?—A very beneficial effect. The manu- facturers admitted that there was a saving of fuel, whether great or little I do not know, and there was certainly an abatement of the nuisance. There, the rule that we acted upon was not to require any gentleman to adopt a patent, or any nostrum that might be offered, but simply to insist upon the stoker doing his duty in a proper manner, and the result I know at some of the largest works was very satisfactory. 8805. When you first visited Liverpool had that act been put in operation ?—No. There was an old Act in operation in Liverpool, which was directed against the workmen, so that when informations were laid against parties and penalties were obtained, the workman in order to evade payment left his situation ; but it was found that the Act became inoperative, and in 1854 an amendment Act was obtained which enabled the corporation to direct their attention to the proprietors of the works. 8806. Do you remember the smothering volume of smoke that used to come from the steamers at the landing stages in the Mersey —Yes. 8807. At the present time you do not see anything of the kind 2–There ought to be mone, and if the steamers are properly looked after there is none. 8808. (Mr. Harrison.) You probably heard the ex-mayor say that a considerable quantity of water was used for trade purposes —No doubt of it. 8809. And that one great object in having such a large water supply is to supply the necessities of trade 2–Yes; I know of one dyer who carries on a large business, and who says that one of his objects in choosing the present site of his works was not only to get a good supply of water by boring for it, but that if the borehole supply were not enough he might be ultimately supplied at a low cost from the town's works. 8810. You have gone beyond the district of Brad- ford proper, I believe, into Wharfedale for a supply of water 2–Yes, we have gone to a great distance. 88.11. Do you know the proportion of water that you obtain from Airedale and Wharfedale —No. 8812. Is not one effect of bringing water from a distance to increase the value of the property in the neighbourhood of Bradford 2–I should say so un- questionably. 8813. Will you point out the difficulty that you mentioned in the way of applying sewage to land 2– I mean that the land in the vicinity of towns gets otherwise covered. I am not prepared to say what the increase of the pollution is; but, as far as I understand, the effect of our increased supply of water is that although there is an increased volume of L 1 3 270 Rivrºs CoMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD, W. T. - McGowen, Esq. 13 Nov. 1866. sewage, it is much less offensive in its character, and its flow is much more speedy. 8814. That would be in the neighbourhood of Brad- ford, but would it be so in the river Aire —I think it would hold, ceteris paribus; if you get a large volume of water relatively to the solids to be carried away, you increase the flow and diminish the evil, by increasing the speed of the stream. 8815. You have stated that any measure that was passed should be of a general character; do you mean to say that it should be of such a general character as that no town should be allowed to turn its sewage into a river?—No, I do not mean that. This is my view of the subject: take Bradford as it is, and I ask where in the borough can you find a place for the deposit of the sewage, where you could, by a process of distri- bution over and absorption into the land, deodorize it? My answer is, nowhere; and then you would be con- strained to go to another district. I should like you to obtain more correct information upon these points from Mr. Gott as to the configuration of the land, and so forth; but I understand that a good spot for de- odorizing processes could not be obtained, except at a considerable distance. If a measure is to be forced upon the community, I contend that it should be forced upon all communities alike, and that it should be a general scheme for a general district. Let me illustrate this in another way, and this is a very serious feature in connexion with a deodorizing scheme ; suppose land is acquired and conduits are made, and the sewage is delivered upon the soil, the corporation would be the managers of the estate, and they according to my ex- perience are not very happy managers of property of that kind. Again, it is very desirable, if a scheme is to be carried out, that all persons affected should join in it. 8816. You stated a short time back that you thought the ocean would be a safe place in which to get rid of the sewage 2–I know that you can get rid of it there, because I have seen it done. 8817. Are you aware that the sewage of towns situated near the sea, when carried into the ocean, is frequently a great nuisance —No, I do not know that, but I can imagine it would be so where the tidal current is very gentle, and where the bulk of the sewage spreads over the sands, and where the rise and fall of the tide is but trifling. 88.18. If a town like Bradford goes to a great ex- pense for its own benefit, in bringing water in large quantities from an adjoining water-shed, as it does from the Wharfe, and thereby encourages an increase of population in its neighbourhood, and consequent pollution, would it be too much to call upon the town to go to a subsequent expense in removing the sewage that is so created, even to a considerable dis- tance, for the purpose of distributing it on the land 2 —I do not think that any corporation would object to undertake a fair responsibility, but they would all like to know, before any expenditure was forced upon them, whether a satisfactory scheme had been decided upon, I think that a corporation ought not to ex- perimentalize with public money, but they would not object to bear a portion of the burden. If the cor- poration is to join in some public measure, they would be fairly entitled to ask the Government to assist them with money on the easiest terms. 8819. And to give them power to take land com- pulsorily for the application of the sewage?—Certainly, if it were, as the chairman said, some simple and in- expensive mode of getting the property other than the costly way we have been speaking about. 8820. (Professor Way.) With regard to the general character of such a measure, do you mean that it should be general throughout the country, or general only in a district 2–One part of the question admits of a ready answer; I think that if you set a plan in operation in one district, and leave others free from its operation, you are holding out a disadvantage to one class of men and not to others, as far as manu- factures and commerce are concerned. It would be a desirable thing that all should be placed on an equal footing. It would be a most unjust thing to put this town, for example, under some control as to manu- factures, and to leave another town free. 8821. Provided that all persons dwelling upon the banks of the Aire were to be put on the same footing, is there any reason why you should object to legislation for this district until, for example, the west of England was dealt with ?—The way in which J would answer that question is this: if you could show that a change was valuable for the eastern side of the island, I do not think that you ought to delay your operations until you got a scheme ready for the western side. 8822. Might not a manufacturer say, “If I have to “ compete with another district which is not placed “ under the same conditions and the same prohibitions “ as I am, I must compete with disadvantage.” Or might he say, “Although I am put to some expense “ and inconvenience in purifying the water I use “ before. I throw it into the river, still, as all my “ neighbours are put in the same position, and as I “ get pure water running past my mills in consequence, “I gain an advantage *—The reply to that I think is this: if I was a manufacturer I should like to see everybody dealt with in the same way, all over the land, and if I could not get that I should require the people living in the same district at least to be dealt with in the same way. 8823. Should you be inclined to oppose or to ac- quiesce in legislation which dealt with this district apart from the rest of the country –If it could be shown that there was a perfect scheme for the eastern- most side of the island, I do not think that the opera- tion of it should be delayed until you obtained a scheme for the western side of the island. At the same time I would say that whatever scheme you do devise, it is of the highest consequence, looking at the wonderful ramifications of the commercial operations of this country, that care should be taken not to dis- locate any of the commercial arrangements which subsist, not to give one man an advantage over another. I have no doubt at all that very minute considerations affect the attraction of commerce to certain spots. 8824. Do you mean that the character or quality of the water in a district is a minute consideration ?–It is a very important one. - 8825. And if anything could be done to improve it, it would not be a very minute consideration ?–In this district I do not think that the purification of the water is a matter of much consequence. Manufac- turers get their supply of water either by boring for it, or, if they do not bore for it, they buy from us whatever quantity they want. There are those who do not mind its purity, and only want it for boiler purposes, and they can get their supply and they do get it from the beck, though not in a very pure condition. - 8826. I suppose that when mauufacturers first settled down by the side of these streams they came for pure water —I cannot say what induced those manufactories to be established here. 8827. My previous question was this, whether you would be opposed to legislation for the rivers of the Aire and Calder separately and distinct from the rest of the country, if the same principle was subsequently carried out in other places?–As to the social effects I should say certainly not, but of course it might interfere with the manufacturing interests, and upon that I cannot give you any information. The only point upon which I feel strongly is, the paramount necessity for the Government to be more considerate with reference to advances of money than they have hitherto been, and I apply that particularly to the question which you have now under consideration. It is also desirable that there should be a simplifi- cation of the mode of acquiring property. * . The witness withdrew. Rivers CoMºMission;–MTNtºrºs of EviſiºnCE. 271 8828. (Chairman.) You are the borough engineer of Bradford 2–Yes. 8829. How long have you held the appointment of borough engineer –For 10 years. 8830. Where were you engaged previously to your appointment in Bradford —I was engaged in Hull. 8831. In any other place besides Hull 2–No, not in the same capacity. 8832. Will you be good enough to describe briefly to the Commission the area upon which Bradford stands, and the names of the becks which pass into and through it?—The plan which you see now upon the wall shows the borough of Bradford. The whole of the borough is situated in the valley of the Bradford beck, and the middle plan on the wall I have prepared to show the different levels of the land in and about the town and district. The colours on the map are so arranged that each colour shows 100 feet of level. I have coloured the spaces between the contour lines so that all the land coloured yellow is from 200 to 300 feet above the level of the sea, it ranges from that. The green represents from 300 to 400 feet; the purple next to the green represents from 400 to 500 feet, and the other colours range above that, as you will see, up to the summits of the hills. The plan shows distinctly to anyone who can follow those colours the way in which the hills and valleys lie, and the general conformation of the district in and about Bradford. 8833. What is the area of the borough of Bradford? —6,508 acres. 8834. What is the population —The present popu- lation is estimated at 130,000. In 1861 the population was 106,000, but there has been since that time a very large increase in the population. I do not think it is now under 130,000 persons. - 8835. What is the present rateable value of the borough 2–The rateable value in 1865 was 376,038/. it is now 405,417/. 8836. What number of houses are there in the borough, occupied and unoccupied ?–I believe that very few of them are unoccupied. The number of houses in the borough now is about 26,000, and I should not think that more than 100 of them are unoccupied. 8837. Is building going on rapidly –Yes, very rapidly. - 8838. Where are the chief manufactories situated 2 —The principal manufactories are situated in the valleys near the streams, but there are very large manufactories now erected away from the streams. 8839. What do you call these manufactories 2–We call them mills chiefly and dyeworks; there are also ironworks. 8840. Foundries 2–Yes. - 8841. And gasworks?—Yes, we have gasworks. 8842. Are these situated near the streams ?—Yes. 8843. Are there any chemical works?—Yes, and soap works. 8844. And also grease works?—Yes. 8845. Have you any idea as to the number of water closets in use in Bradford P_Yes, I believe there are nearly 1,500. 8846. Is there also a number of cesspits and ash middens?–Yes, and the number of the ashpits is a little over 6,000. We do not exactly know, we make a return of the number that are cleansed, and the number of them is about 6,000. 8847. What is the number of the privies which are attached to those ashpits –About double the number of ashpits. - 8848. About 12,000 or 14,000?–Yes. 8849. Are those privies and ashpits cleansed by the owners of them, or, when neglected by the owners, are they cleansed by the corporation ?—They are all cleansed by the corporation. 8850. Under contract, or by men employed by the corporation ?—They are cleansed by contract, by Mr. CHARLEs GoTT, C.E. (Bradford), examined. hand labour; the work has been now let for many years to contractors. 8851. At what cost to the corporation ?—The amount at which the contracts are now let is 5,400l., but that amount covers two years, it is 2,700l. for one year. 8852. That is so far I suppose a dead loss to the community ?–Yes; that is the annual expenditure which they have to incur to get rid of the refuse and ashes from the houses. - 8853. Does that sum include the street sweeping — No, that is an extra expense. 8854. Where are the ashes and the night soil de- posited when removed?—The ashes and the night soil, in fact all the refuse which is taken from the ash- pits is the property of the contractor. 8855. But my question is what does he do with it 2 —He sells what he can, and the ashes are mixed with the soil so as to make them in a certain degree valu- able for manure, and those I believe he can sell; the other refuse, dry ashes, broken pots, and miscellaneous rubbish, he gets rid of as well as he can ; sometimes he pays something to be allowed to tip it and get rid of it upon waste land, or to put it in holes and diffe- rent places. 8856. Has he any depôt near to any flowing water, or near to the Bradford beck at any point —I am not aware of any, and I believe not. 8857. Where are the street sweepings taken 2– The street sweepings are carted away from the streets by a contractor, that is under another contract, and they belong to the person who takes them away. The corporation have provided a depôt for the street sweepings to be laid in until they dry, and can be sold for manure. 8858. What sum of money do you pay for that work being done?—That is let in a different way, we pay for team labour so much per day, that is for a horse and cart and a man. 8859. What extent of main sewers have been car- ried out in Bradford, and at what cost?—We have made altogether a little over six miles of main sewers, or 10,720 yards, at a cost of very nearly 40,000l. 8860. What number of houses have you drained 2 —We have not drained many houses yet, except in- directly, and perhaps I might explain that the sewer- age work of the town is a work that has only been recently taken up. It was first commenced in 1863, and the work has been divided into three parts. We are dealing with the sewerage works first by con- structing an outfall sewer, a large main arterial sewer, and lines of main sewers intended to serve the largest districts. The second part of the work, at which we have not yet arrived, consists of making street sewers and minor sewers of every description throughout the district. The third part of the work will include the making of all house drains and private drains in con- nexion with the street sewers. As the work has been going on the practice has been to connect the existing drains with the new sewers in a temporary way, until the large main sewers are completed. The old drains will be taken up and new ones substituted for them. 8861. What is your estimate for an entire and com- plete system of main sewers?—The estimates have been made in parts, but the general estimate for all the sewerage works, exclusive of house drains, for which private parties would have to pay, is about 120,000l. 8862. Have you inspected the position of these cesspits and privies?—Yes, I know their position very well, they are very much of the same character throughout the town. - 8863. Are any of them crowded together in the thickly peopled parts of the borough?—Yes, and that is the general fault of them. 8864. Are any of them to be found beneath sleep- ing rooms ?—I believe not, not one of them. There is a provision in the Bradford Improvement Act which BRADFORD. Mr. C. Gott. 13 Nov. 1866. T, 1 4 272 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADEORD. Mr. C. Gott. 13 Nov. 1866. - enables the corporation to prevent any person sleeping in a room over an ashpit or a privy. 8865. Are there not instances of the contents of cesspits filtering through and into adjoining wells – Yes, we have had instances of that kind, but all the houses which have been erected since the building regulations made in the year 1850, under the Bradford Improvement Act, have been built under regulations that require ashpits and outbuildings to be placed in proper situations, and therefore the ashpits are now in every case kept apart and distinct from the houses. 8866. Are not the corporation the proprietors of the waterworks – Yes. 8867. Can you give us readily the rainfall, the number of the reservoirs and the area of their gathering grounds, the cube capacity of the reservoirs, with the greatest depth, and the cost of the works — Yes, I have prepared some information of that cha- racter. The large cartoon plan on the wall shows the scheme for the waterworks generally. I have a plan here, which I will hand in to you (handing in the same), which shows the scheme of the waterworks just as they are carried out. 8868. I will take the most distant reservoir, that of Grimwith, it is a compensation reservoir – Yes. These works have now been in course of construc- tion for the last 10 years, there was an old system of waterworks in use then, which is shown in black lines, and the yield at that time was not half a million of gallons a day, that was in 1850 before the new works were made, and it so continued until 1856. That half million of gallons a day (the works being situated about six miles to the west of Bradford) was entirely derived from the many well springs; those old works were bought by the corporation, and new works were commenced in 1856. I should mention that the new works affect the valleys of the two rivers the Wharfe and the Aire, and that the total quantity of water intended to be brought to Bradford is 10 millions of gallons a day from all the works when completed. - 8869. Your most distant reservoir is the Grimwith reservoir, is it not?–Yes. Seven millions out of 10 millions of gallons are intended to be brought from the valley of the river Wharfe; the works consist of 10 miles of conduit or aqueduct for intercepting the streams, and conveying the water from the store reservoirs; there are two store reservoirs in that valley and one compensation reservoir. The area of the gathering ground from which the water is brought to supply the town is 7,550 acres, and the area from which the water is brought to give compensation to the river is 7,390 acres. 8870. Then you give an equal area and an equal volume for the compensation and for the store reser- voirs ?–Yes. The reservoir capacity is, in the appropriated area, the Barden reservoir, 440 millions of gallons, and the Chelker reservoir 250 millions of gallons, making together 690 millions of gallons of reservoir capacity which are provided in that valley. The capacity of the compensation reservoir is 633 millions of gallons, and the compensation reservoir is placed entirely under the management of the mill owners, so far as the drawing of the water is con- cerned, and as a matter of practice they draw only from that reservoir during dry weather, when the river is so low that they find it necessary to take more water for their mills. The capacity of the Grimwith reservoir is just equal to 90 days consumption of the water to be brought to Bradford at the rate of 7,000,000 gallons a day, and the mill owners could, if the reservoir was only filled once in a year, draw for 90 days continually from the reservoir as much water as is taken from the district; but the gathering ground is very high, it varies from 1,000 to 1,800 feet above the level of the sea; the rainfallis considerably above 40 inches per annum, and the gathering ground is so large that four inches of rain from that gathering ground will fill the reservoir once. As a matter of fact the mill owners can draw very much more than the quantity which is brought to Bradford, as they can depend upon the reservoirs being filled much oftener than four times throughout the year; the can draw without any difficulty about 20,000,000 gallons a day for 90 dry days of an average year. 8871. Is the Grimwith reservoir in operation now P —Yes, and it has been for three years. 8872. Is the Barden reservoir also at work —No, that is not; a very considerable amount of work has to be done there yet. 8873. Is the Chelker reservoir also in use ?–It is just coming into use, it has not been used yet. 8874, Is the Silsden reservoir in use?—Yes, that is in use, but it is in the other valley. 8875. Where is the Doe Park reservoir 2–It is just at the end of the deep purple colour which you see on the map. 8876. Near to Denholme P-Yes, it is. The com- pensation water given to the Wharfe for the water taken from the river is very ample, and the river has certainly been improved by the works which the corporation have carried out in that district. 8877. Do the whole of your works supply by gravitation, or is there any pumping —They are all gravitation works. 8878. What is the rainfall over the entire district 2 —We estimate it at from 34 to 36 inches upon an average of years, probably 36 inches would be a fair average to take. 8879. Were you at all troubled for water last year 2 —No. 8880. Do you know what volume of water is being brought to Bradford now 2–We use about 4,500,000 gallons a day. 8881. How much of that do you sell for manufac- turing purposes and how much for domestic purposes 2 -—That is a matter which is very difficult to distin- guish in many cases, but we estimate that 1,500,000 gallons are used for the domestic supply, and about 500,000 gallons for public purposes, street watering, and so on, taking the year round, and we estimate that the remainder consumed is used for trade. 8882. How much per head do you reckon that the 2,000,000 gallons give for town purposes 2—About 16 gallons per head. 8883. Is that in your opinion a sufficient quantity ? ––As a matter of fact we find that that is as much as people use ; there is no limit placed upon the quantity that they use. 8884. What is the pressure under which the water is supplied in the borough 2–The levels vary as much as 600 feet, we have that difference of level between the highest and the lowest parts of the town. 8885. I suppose you break the pressure at intervening points?—Yes, we supply the borough with water at two different levels. - 8886. Then the greatest practical pressure is about 300 feet, I suppose 2–Yes; but there are points where it is about 400 feet, then again there are some points where it would be practically nothing. We carry the water as high as it will go up the hill sides, and the great bulk of the supply is brought to the town at about 200 feet of pressure. 8887. Do you know the amount of the annual rental received for domestic purposes?—No, we have not separated the figures in that way. 8888. Can you give me the amount of the annual income received for trade and domestic purposes?—I know that the revenue has very much increased from the sale of water. The gross revenue for last year 1865 was 22,344/. 8889. And it is increasing?—Yes, it is increasing very rapidly; in the year before the revenue amounted to 19,416/. - - 8890. What do you charge per 1,000 gallons for water supplied for manufacturing purposes by meter 2 —Our scale of charges varies from 2d. per 1,000 gallons to 1s. per 1,000 gallons, that is to say, for the smallest quantity that is used we charge at the rate of 1s. per 1,000 gallons, and we sell it at 2d. per 1,000 gallons to persons who take a sufficient quantity; but RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 273 the truth is that we have not yet had customers who took enough water to bring down their charge to that end of the scale. 8891. (Professor Way.) In point of fact you do not sell it for 2d. per 1,000 gallons —No ; I believe that the largest consumer has paid us from 600l. to 700l. a year for water, he being charged at the rate of 2,4, or 23d. per 1,000 gallons. For trade purposes we sell it by meter. 8892. What is the gross amount of capital that is invested in your waterworks?—The gross total of the capital account is 739,6091. at the present time, but that includes many items which would hardly form part of the expense of carrying out the water scheme, because it includes parliamentary charges, the purchase of old works, and all the usual items. 8893. What is the estimated cost of completing your works as the scheme stands 2—It is rather difficult to say, but I estimate that it will take at least 50,000l. to complete the whole of the undertaking. 8894. And that will give you only 10,000,000 gallons a day ?–Yes. 8895. For the purpose of sale –Yes. 8896. And exclusive of compensation ?—Yes. 8897. If you could sell 10,000,000 gallons at 2d. per 1,000 gallons, would that answer your purpose : —That would hardly do for us; but of course the average rate that we receive for the water that is sold by measure is very nearly 6d., according to the scale at which we sell it. 8898. Still you think you gain an advantage in offering a premium to trade and selling the water at the lowest possible rate that you can 2–Yes, we think it is an advantage to do so, because unless we sold the water at a very low price we should not be . able to sell a large quantity. 8899. It is upon that principle that you act –Yes; we do not sell all our water at that price. 8900. In what condition is Bradford beck now 2– The beck is in a very bad condition. 8901. To your knowledge is it the practice of any parties, either within or without the borough, to pass solid refuse into the beck —I cannot say much as to particular persons, but I know that it is done. 8902. Have you, as engineer to the borough, any authority to cause the matter to be looked after and to forbid the practice —No, I believe not. 8903. Is the beck, in any portion of its course within the town, in an unregulated state ; that is to say, the banks not fenced off nor walled, nor the bed pitched —It is altogether in a very unsatisfactory condition. I have indicated on this plan the man- ner in which the Bradford beck and its tributaries run through the town. 8904. I assume that you can put this plan in 2– Yes. There are several minor streams besides the Bradford beck which pass through the thickly popu- lated part of the town. 8965. The plan which you have put before the Commission shows the town of Bradford and the lines of the Bradford beck and its tributaries —Yes. 8906. Are the tributaries or is the beck in any portion of their course built over ?–Yes. The Brad- ford beck, as you are aware, is a tributary of the river Aire. It joins the river Aire two miles below Bradford, at a place called Shipley. The beck flows through the middle of the town, and extends about six miles to the west. The minor streams which flow into the Bradford beck, which you will see upon the plan with the names written upon them, are smaller than the Bradford beck, but are of a similar character. The water-shed area of the Bradford beck and its tributaries is 11,000 acres at the boundary of Brad- ford, and to its junction with the river it is 14,660 aCreS. 8907. Have you any gaugings of the volumes of water in dry weather and in flood —No ; there are several towns and villages in the valley of the Brad- ford beck besides Bradford. There is the town of Thornton, and there are Heaton, Allerton, Clayton, 17159.-2, and a part of Queensbury. All except Heaton are above the borough of Bradford. The beck course through the middle of the town for nearly a mile in length is practically all covered over, chiefly by buildings, and in this way it has become very much obstructed and very much interfered with. It has been the practice of owners throughout Bradford to claim the soil of the beck channel, and in erecting buildings near the beck to build over or in the beck. In many cases the land on each side belongs to different owners; they each claim to the middle of the stream, and on building they have put down the outer walls of their buildings at the boundary of the property, which is in the middle of the stream, and the result of that is that for considerable distances the beck is divided into two streams, and the flow of water, especially during floods, is very much inter- fered with. 8908. Within your knowledge have serious injuries arisen from floods in many parts of the town 2– Yes. 8909. Can you at the present time name the dates and the circumstances —I have not the particulars here just now, but I shall be able to give them to you; but I think that it is four years since the last occasion when the town was inundated with water. The new sewers which have recently been made, especially the large outfall sewer, have to a great extent tended to prevent flooding in the town. 8910. As an engineer do you think that, if the corporation had power and had funds, it would be possible materially to improve the condition of the beck as regards purity and a freer delivery of water? —I think that it would be possible to improve it very much indeed. In fact, in the report which I made to the committee with reference to the sewerage of the borough, I suggested a mode in which they should deal with the Bradford beck (the witness delivered in the same). - 8911. Is it a fact that the Bradford beck is notorious in Yorkshire for its amount of pollution ? Have you ever heard it alluded to as an exceedingly polluted stream —Yes, I believe that it is so. 8912. People have begun to say, “as polluted as “ the Bradford beck º’—Yes, it is in a very bad con- dition. One peculiarity of the Bradford beck is that there is at times a large body of hot water flowing into the stream, and it seems to have the effect of making the smell more offensive. Condensed water is cast into the beck and boilers are also emptied into it. There are other obstructions placed in the beck besides the building of walls in it. In some cases weirs or dams are placed across in order that the mill owners may obtain supplies of water; the principal obstruction in the beck is the sluices or cloughs which are placed across the beck by the canal com- pany. They raise the water from three to four feet at a point at the lower side of the town, so as to create a pool of a sufficient elevation to run into the canal. That makes a very serious obstruction, espe- cially in flood time, and the result is to cause the channel to silt up and also dirt to deposit to a very serious extent. 8913. What is the condition of the Bradford canal? —The Bradford canal is the worst stream of water which it has been my fortune to meet with or hear of. It is very much worse than the Bradford beck. The canal is entirely supplied at the end of this branch from the water of the beck. That water becomes very much worse than the water in the beck, for the simple reason that the water is penned back by the canal locks for a sufficient length of time to allow the filth in the water to decompose, and in dry weather the water becomes very foul. I have no doubt that the effect upon the health of the town has been very prejudicial. 8914. Have you heard any talk of doing away with the canal?–Some legal proceedings have been taken during the last two years against the lessees and the canal company together for the purpose of suppressing M ml BRADFORD. Mr. C. Gott. 13 Nov. 1866. 274 : RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD. Mr. C. Gott. 13 Nov. 1866. the nuisance, not for the purpose of doing away with the canal. The gentlemen who are concerned in that prosecution would be glad to attend before you and to give you the result. 89.15. Will you describe to the Commission the character of the works situated on the river Aire — The waterworks in the valley of the river Aire consist of three separate parts. First of all, there are the old works which the Many wells springs supply, viz., two store reservoirs at Chellow Dean, and a compen- sation reservoir near the Many wells springs called the Hewenden compensation reservoir. Those works constitute the old scheme from which the town was formerly supplied with water. Then the new works are divided into two portions; the low-level portion consisting of 11% miles of main and inter- cepting conduits, and containing the Silsden compen- sation reservoir; and the high-level portion in the most southerly districts, consisting of the Stubden store reservoir and conduit and the Doe Park com. pensation reservoir. The area of the gathering ground in this valley which is appropriated for the supply of the town by the new works is 3,100 acres. As to the old works, the supply being exclusively from a spring, it is not practicable to give the area of the gathering ground, but the volume of that spring is equal to 500,000 gallons per day. The area from which the compensation water is drawn in the low level is 2,000 acres, in the high level it is 1,000 acres, with the overflow from 900 acres, the extent of the appropriated area. As regards the old works, the Hewenden compensation reservoir has an addi- tional area of 1,000 acres, with the overflow from the area of the Doe Park reservoir. The Silsden reser- voir is used in a different manner from the other compensation reservoirs. It is provided in the Act of Parliament that 1,350,000 gallons a day shall be dis- charged all the year round as a compensation for the water which is brought to Bradford from that district. The quantity of water brought to Bradford from that district is 1,500,000 gallons per day, so that the river is not very much affected by it, either in one way or the other. The capacity of the Doe Park reservoir is 110,000,000 gallons, and the quantity of water brought from that district to Bradford is 1,000,000 gallons per day. The quantity of water, therefore, is equal to 110 days supply. 8916. That requires the reservoir to be filled once in every 110 days —Yes; that is assuming that there will not be more than 110 dry days consecutively in the year. The capacity of the Hewenden reservoir is 70,000,000 gallons, and the quantity of water taken to Bradford is 500,000 gallons per day. Therefore the compensation water is equal to 140 days of the town supply. These reservoirs are worked in the same way as the Grimwith reservoir under orders from the millowners, and the millowners draw from these reservoirs at least 2,000,000 gallons per day throughout the year. 8917. Do the millowners pay for the management of the reservoirs?—They do not. 8918. You pay for the management, and they con- trol the draught –Yes, and we also pay for the maintenance. You will observe that that 2,000,000 gallons per day which the millowners draw from the Hewenden and the Doe Park reservoirs is greater than the quantity which is taken from the district to Bradford. 8919. As engineer do you know whether the volume of water thus given for compensation, is the usual proportion given for compensation, or is it more or is it less?—I think that it is more than is usually given for compensation. The compensation water, so far as I understand it, is generally based upon 120 days' supply of the water taken from the district. 8920. Have you an analysis of the water from the several reservoirs?—No. We have some analyses which were made formerly before the works were completed, 8921. Is the Grimwith reservoir in good working order 2–Yes. 8922. And the Doe Park reservoir –Yes, they never were better, ºn 8923. Are they both full, or nearly full, at the pre- sent time –Yes, in fact they have been full during the greater part of this year, it having been a very wet year. 8924. Then the Doe Park reservoir has been full since we saw it last 2–Yes, and it has been so for several months. - - 8925. And you have your registration as to the yield of the drains, both within the culvert and with- out 2–Yes; the yield is less than it ever was before, in fact the reservoir is in every way in a better con- dition than it ever was before. 8926. You feel satisfied now that the difficulty in that respect has been overcome 2–Yes. - 8927. What is the name of the reservoir where the valve well was being repaired 2–That was the Grim- with reservoir. 8928. Is it in good order 2–Yes. - 8929. You have effectually completed it 2–Yes, and it has been working nearly the whole of the year. It was not a very long job to complete it. 8930. You have the means of drawing that reser- voir down at two heads 2—We have. 8931. And the Doe Park reservoir at one head?— Yes. 8932. At what point of the Bradford beck have the most injurious proceedings taken place –As you will observe, there is a limited district. You will see upon the contour plan that there is a very limited area at the lower part of the part marked green, before you come to the yellow, which is the lowest part of the town. The whole of the lowest part of that green basin has been filled with water from the higher lands. I have seen the water myself as much as two to three feet deep in the streets hereabouts. 8933. Have you had any opportunity of gauging the volume in dry weather, and also in floods –In dry weather we might gauge it, but it would not be easy. It would be difficult to find a point where you could collect all the water. - 8934. Have you gauged the delivery of your outlet sewer at any particular period —No; it is in a mere transition state. We are daily connecting new drains and sewers with it. 8935. Have you any idea what volume of water is flowing to the outlet 2—I should think that it is now equal to nearly 5,000,000 gallons a day. 8936. Then, if you had to deal with the sewage for irrigation, you must contemplate dealing with a volume of water equal to 5,000,000 gallons per day 2 —We must contemplate much more than that. 8937. I mean even at the present time 2–Before 10 days are over it will be more. We shall attach some new sewer, the work being in progress. 8938. In draining your town do you meet with much subsoil water in trenches which you excavate for sewers ?–Only at intervals. The principal water with which we are troubled is that which flows from the old sewers which the new ones have to replace, otherwise we do not meet with much subsoil water. But the subsoil is to a great extent rock, and the water which drains from the higher lands comes out more distinctly like springs than it would do if the subsoil were of a more porous character. 8939. Your sewage would bear some proportion to the volume of water passed into the town for domestic and manufacturing uses 2–It does not, I think, bear a proportion to it, because a great deal of water is pumped at the mills and by different persons in trade, and is drained off into the sewers, which water does not come through our mains. 8940. Then it would be difficult to estimate the volume of water in the sewers except by gauging at the outlet —Yes, and the works are still incomplete. I think that the volume of drainage in that sewer when the works are completed will not be less than from 15,000,000 to 20,000,000 gallons a day. - - - RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 275 8941. At the present time is the foul water from the works situated within Bradford generally passed into the beck or into the sewers ?—We have taken into the sewers all drains and sewers of every descrip- tion with which we have come into contact, and when the drains are completed no doubt a very large pro- portion of foul water will come into the sewers. 8942. Do you think that you will take no refuse dye water –All water which is taken from the becks to be used for trade purposes must be returned by those who take it to the becks. I do not therefore think that the dye water will find its way to the Sewers. 8943. Have you stipulations put upon manufacturers that they shall return to the beck as much water after use as they have taken out of the beck?—I do not think that there are any stipulations, but it is under- stood that they shall return it to the stream, otherwise the stream would be dry, there would be no water in the becks long before the becks got through the town. 8944. Have you a report upon the main sewerage 2 —That is the one which I have handed in. That report shows the scheme upon which we are now working, with some very slight modifications of level which have been shown to be necessary in practice. 8945. Are your sewers systematically ventilated 2– The only arrangement which has been made so far for ventilation is to connect the vertical rain pipes of buildings with branch drains leading to the sewers without the intervention of traps. 8946. Do you think that that is sufficient 2–I do not ; but at present we are hardly in a condition to carry out any other system. It is not intended to ventilate the sewers upon that system. 8947. Do you not think that it would be expedient to have temporary ventilation at the upper ends of your sewers ?—We have not yet got to the upper ends of them. 8948. But you could introduce means for the escape of gas at that point, and that would be better than to allow it to accumulate and force its way back into the dwelling houses —I do not think that there is any escape of gas into the dwellings as yet, the flow of the water as compared with the size of the sewers is very small. 8949. But you are aware that the gas being lighter than atmospheric air rises to the highest point 2–Yes; we have a great many openings by which such gases can escape into the vertical rain pipes of buildings; probably the draught caused by a flue would not extend to any great distance in the sewer. 8950. (To Mr. McGowen.) Have you any officer of health 2–No. 8951. Have you discussed the propriety of appoint- ing an officer of health 2–Not since I have been here. 8952. Have you any inspector of nuisances?–We have two inspectors of nuisances with a very efficient staff. 8953. Shall we have them tendered here to give evidence 2–Not unless you wish it. Our notion was that all the details upon physical questions affecting the town were in the possession of the engineer, but the inspectors are at your service with great pleasure, if you wish to see them, and the chairman of the sanitary committee would be happy to come before OUI. 8954. We should be happy to see them.—One of the inspectors of nuisances has been in attendance this morning in case he should be wanted, and in fact he is here now. 8955. (Chairman, to Mr. Gott.) If you do not intend to do something more than attach down spouts, my opinion is that the sewers will not be sufficiently ventilated. In my opinion a system of sewers can be under-ventilated, but it is absolutely impossible to over-ventilate them 2–Certainly. We have had under consideration the subject of ventilating the sewers. The plan adopted in London, and in some other large towns, of making vertical air shafts from the top of the sewer to the surface of the street, to allow the draught from the sewers to escape into the street, appears to me to be open to so many objections, that I have not recommended the council to adopt it in their works. The general objection appears to me to be, that if the air and gases in the sewers are foul, and if the smell is offensive (which it must be at times), it must be very objectionable to direct that smell into the street, where it would be most likely to contaminate the air. If the air from the sewers is offensive on entering houses by means of internal drains and openings, it appears to me to be equally offensive on entering houses from windows and doors. There is another objection, namely, that the hot water and steam in the sewers in Bradford is known to be of such a character that we think that if we had these openings they would be dangerous, the steam con- stantly arising from them would make it dangerous to horses going along the street. The mode which I propose to recommend our committee to adopt, is to obtain some general power which will enable them to arrange with private persons for the formation of a chimney shaft or flue in the corner of a house or other building at proper and suitable intervals along every street, and that those shafts should be connected with the sewer, and continued to a sufficient height above the tops of the houses to prevent the smell blowing into any of the windows. The flues would not require to be larger than the ordinary chimney flues, and if the highest buildings were selected it appears to me that the smell would be carried off in a less objection- able way than by the other mode. 8956. The very excuses which you have offered for not ventilating the sewers are in my opinion the strongest reasons why they should be ventilated with- out the least possible delay, namely, the existence of the steam and the hot water. Any temporary nuisance by the steam rising into the street, as you say it would do, in my opinion would be as nothing com- pared with the risk of contamination if the gas is enabled to force itself along and get inside dwellings. Then, as to the dilution of the gases by permitting them to escape directly from the crown of the sewer into the open air, all chemists and scientific persons know that the dilution is in proportion to the cube of the space, and the escape into the streets of a yery foul-smelling gas would be comparatively innoxious to any human beings dwelling in that town, whereas if admitted in a high state of concentration into the four corners of a dwelling it might be of a most dangerous character. Any admission by doors and windows would be trifling in comparison. London is notoriously the most healthy town in the world, and the opinion is that its health has arisen from that cause. Over the west end of London you can count the waterclosets by tens of thousands, above 1,500 miles of the sewers of London are sewers of deposit which have to be cleansed by hand, and the evapora- tion from that deposit must be enormous; but still, by diluting those gases in the atmosphere external to the buildings, you reduce the rate of mortality until you see it ranging from 22% to 23% per thousand. I do not know what your mortality is here, but in Manchester, in Salford, in Leeds, in Sheffield, and in Liverpool it ranges from 30 to 35 in the 1000, and in the last year in Liverpool it has been up to the frightful amount of upwards of 60 in the 1,000 —What I said was not to excuse the non-ventilation of the sewers, nor in any way to obviate the necessity of ventilating them, neither did I wish to give the opinion that they ought not to be ventilated; what I said was more in reference to the manner in which they might be ventilated. I quite agree with you as to the necessity of ventilating them. (Chairman.) If you assure me that you and the corporation will put up your tall chimnies with the least possible delay, I will accept that, but if not, I would urge yov by all the power of my language to introduce a surface ventilation in the streets, at the BRADFORD. - Mr. C. Gott. - 13 Nov. 1866. M m 2 276 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD. Mr. C. Gott. 13 Nov. 1866. risk of any supposed inconvenience which might arise from letting out those gases into the open air. 8957. (Professor Way.) The Chairman does not say that it is a good thing to discharge the gases into the streets, but that it is much better to discharge them and dilute them in the streets than to deliver them in the dwellings. If you can propose any method by which you can not only keep them out of the dwellings, but can keep them out of the streets, of course that is a desirable thing – But, at the same time, I think that anybody will see that one of those grates taken by itself cannot be made more than the equivalent of a vertical drain of a house. - 8958. If I understand him rightly, the Chairman was not objecting to your system of ventilation, but was objecting to non-ventilation ?—I rather took him to object to our system as not being sufficient. 8959. (Chairman.) I unhesitatingly say that the down-spout ventilation is not sufficient 2–It is not perfect. 8960. (Professor Way.) 10 per cent. in ventilation is better than one per cent. -No doubt; it is only a question of quantity. 8961. (Mr. Harrison.) It has been stated in other towns (and I believe that it is very likely to be the case) that the ventilation which you speak of by spouts becomes inoperative just at the very time when it is wanted. If there is an extra rainfall which is likely to fill your spouts with water, and to hold the gases for a longer time, the water coming down the spout holds its own. There was a medical man at Croydon who illustrated that in a remarkable manner. He said, “On the occasion of a thunderstorm I heard “ a great noise in my house; I went up to the water- * closet, and found the gases bubbling through the ‘ watercloset, and at the same time there was an ‘ extremely bad smell, and in a few days I had fever “ in my house, and it went through the servants and “ the children º’—That would be very exceptional. At the same time, if the system is open to that objec- tion, the other system is open to this objection, that in frosty weather you have no alternative but to confine the gases to the sewers, and let them escape where they can. - 8962. (Professor Way.) Do the openings ever close 2–Yes. - 8963. (Chairman.) They never do so in London 2 —London is a peculiar place, but further north you will find it to be the case. 8964. (Professor Way.) You will always see an opening into the street, whether there is snow or not. However, you wish the Chairman to understand that there is always the means of some ventilation ?— Certainly. 8965. (Chairman.) Have you a tabulated return of the death rate 2–We have the returns tabulated for each year. The death rate for last year was 28 per 1,000. 8966. How far back can you give us the death rate —I think that I have it for eight or ten years. 8967. Will you give it to us in round figures for 10 years —I have just given you the death rate of 1866. 8968. Will you begin with 1856, or with the earliest date with which you can begin –I can begin with the year 1861. The death rate was then 27 per 1,000. In 1862 it was 24 per 1,000. In 1863 it was 26.2 per 1,000; in 1864 it was 28.3 per thousand ; in 1865, it was 28.5 per 1,000; in 1866, it was 28.2 per 1,000. 8969. Then the mortality of Bradford may be taken as standing at about 28 per 1,000 –Yes. 8970. Have there been any reports published by a local sanitary officer connected with the corporation ? —Yes, the report for 1866 is not printed in our usual form, but I have it in a newspaper form. I can deliver in reports dating back to 1860. (The witness delivered in the same.) 8971. Are there any further remarks which you have to make 2–As to the outfall of the sewers, I think that you did not quite exhaust that subject, « º 4. works of that kind can be established. 8972. What is the diameter of your main outfall sewer P-8 feet 6 inches. 8973. It is circular 2–Yes. 8974. Have you ever calculated what volume of water it would require to fill it *—Yes. 8975. What is the fall of the outlet sewer 2– 1 in 400. 8976. That is about 12 feet per mile, is it not ?— Yes; I make the discharge of the sewer 32,000 cubic feet per minute. 8977. That would be about 80,000,000 gallons in a day?—As you are aware it is a valley line, and is subject to a very great increase of water from floods. 8978. At any rate you have no fear of bursting the sewer –No. 8979. You calculate that it will take storm waters ? —Yes, below that point the sewer is much smaller ; ) it is the earliest point at which we can get rid of the Storm waters. 8980. In the event of your having to convey the sewage proper for irrigation, it would not be necessary to make a conduit in that situation ?—Certainly not. The situation of the outfall at present is a temporary one, and it is made at the point nearest to the town where we can lead the excessive flood waters into the streams ; it is about half a mile below the town in the valley. From the point which we have selected, which will ultimately have to be made the situation of the permanent overflow, the sewer will be 4 feet 6 inches in diameter. 8981. Have you seen any of the sewage outlet tanks, as at Birmingham and at some other places, where the sediment is taken out of the sewage before the affluent water passes into the stream 2–Yes; I have seen the Birmingham works. 8982. Would you have any difficulty in carrying out such a regulation for Bradford —I think that we should. It is very difficult to find a place here where The valley is very thickly populated, and the population is chiefly a trade population. There would be no means that I am aware of, of getting rid of the solid matter taken out of the sewage, unless it was carried away by railway or canal. 8983. Then do you think that you are permanently condemned to pollute your river ?—No ; but I do not think that the sewage, if dealt with here as it is dealt with at Birmingham, would be either so profitable or so useful to us as it is at Birmingham. 8984. Do you think that before a town should be required to get rid of pollution it should be necessary to make a profit upon it —No, not at all. 8985. What does a penny in the pound upon your rates produce —About 1,450/. It has increased very much of late. 8986. Then ld, additional upon the rates would give you 1,450l. additional to work with ?–Yes. 8987. Do you think that that would be ruinous to the trade of Bradford –Perhaps not. - 8988. Have you seen the mode of irrigation at Croydon –I saw it some years ago. I have not seen it in the last few years. - 8989. You have not seen irrigation at South Nor- wood?—No. 8990. Or at Worthing 2–No. 8991. Have you seen the Edinburgh meadows 2– No. 8992. Have you seen the irrigation at Carlisle 2– No. 8993. Have you seen the sewage tanks at Black- burn ?–Yes. - 8994. When did you see them 2–Within the last four or five months. 8995. They have made some additions to them since then –Probably so. 8996. Could you do anything of that sort at Brad- ford —I hardly see how we could deal with so large a quantity of water as that which we should have. Those works seem to be on a very small scale; the difficulty really is in finding a locality in which to do - RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 277 it. The valley is very narrow all the way down below Bradford. Before you get two miles away from Brad- ford you get to Shipley, and the intervening district is occupied to a great extent with suburban residences, and is altogether of a character where it would be ex- tremely difficult to work any large scheme for changing the character of the sewage. 8997. Do you know what your 4-feet sewer costs you per linear yard 2–The sewer itself would cost us about 30s. per linear yard, but the easement would of course depend upon the locality through which it had to go. 8998. If it cost you 21. a linear yard complete, how much would it cost per mile 2–4,000l. 8999. Then if you had to go 10 miles it would cost you 40,000l. 2–Yes. 9000. From your answer presume that it is a question upon which you have not made any detailed estimate 2–We have not. We commenced our sew- age works in 1863, and our attention, so far, has been entirely directed to the town sewers. Of course we must collect the sewage from the town and take it into the sewers, and as soon as we have done that we shall have to consider what we shall do with it. 9001. Have you thought at all upon the question of a conservancy board for the management of the rivers?—Yes, I have thought a little about it, simply from reading what has been said in other places. 9002. What idea have you formed as to what kind of board it should be 2–I can hardly say that I have formed an idea at all. There are a great many in- terests to be taken into account, and no doubt the duties of the board would be very complicated. So far as the natural watercourse passes through such a town as Bradford, probably the best way would be to invest the local body, namely the corporation, with sufficient power to deal with that part of the stream. As to the general result it would be comparatively useless to improve one stream, such as Bradford beck, unless some comprehensive scheme was adopted; and the management in that case of course would have to be vested in the hands of a body having rights and powers to deal with the whole district. - 9003. Seeing that Bradford beck has been in a great measure built over, how would you now under- take to improve it —I do not see any other way of improving it than by the corporation (at the cost of the town, if necessary) taking entire and exclusive possession of the beck, and making a new channel for the beck, paving the bottom of it, and making side walls and so on ; and making other provision for the buildings which stand upon it. - 9004. Have you seen the recent alterations which have been made in the rivers passing through Black- burn and Bolton, with regard to paving and pitching —I have seen them in Blackburn, but not in Bolton. 9005. You are aware that both those towns stand on becks like your beck —Yes; it is a matter which is very easy to be done before the surface of the beck is so completely occupied as in Bradford. 9006. Do you think that, for the future protection of the beck, it would be a wise provision for the cor- poration to obtain powers to regulate how buildings shall be erected, with regard to the beck, in the same way as you can regulate buildings in streets and other properties?—I think so, in the interest of the town alone. The town suffers very materially from these obstructions by the water overflowing and damaging warehouses and goods in the lower part of the town. 9007. Do you know anything of the recent borough improvements by forming new streets —Yes. 9008. Do you know the amount of capital which you have borrowed for that purpose ?—Yes; 154,264/. has been obtained for street improvements. 9009. Is that the money actually borrowed – Yes. 9010. Do you know to what extent you have au- thority to borrow %–200,000l. is the present limit. 901 1. I think that you have had two sanctions from the Secretary of State of 100,000l. each 2–Yes. 9012. And you have not availed yourselves of that power, except to the extent of 154,000l. 2–We are constantly borrowing, that is the extent to which we have gone. 9013. Have you any idea of the amount which the corporation expect to be repaid by the sale of land 2 —I should think that at least half of it will come back again, and probably more. 9014. You have acquired large plots of land which will be available to recoup some of the money?— Yes ; I have no doubt that more than half of it will come back again in the way of resales. 9015. Do those street improvements increase the value of the frontages upon the land which has been left when the street has been opened out, as well as facilitate the trade of the borough —Yes. One great advantage of taking the whole property in the way in which the corporation are doing it is, that it en- ables you to clear the ground for new buildings. It is common in many towns, in the old parts of the town, for the buildings to be so mixed up that no single owner can take down his building and erect a better one in the place of it without interfering with some rights, so that in no other way than by the practice which the corporation have adopted could sites be obtained for building in the new streets. 9016. Are you aware whether any further extension of building is contemplated when you have finished what you have in hand?—Yes; the provisional orders which the corporation have obtained extend to a great deal of property besides what they have already dealt with. 9017. Beyond the property which you have sche- duled, have you any idea of making improvement 2– That is a question which I can hardly answer, it of course would depend upon the general policy of the corporation afterwards. 9018. Has there been much grumbling in Bradford about these street improvements –I do not think that there has been any grumbling, except that the in- habitants generally think that the corporation have not done enough. I am not aware of any other grum- bling. 9019. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the area of the Bradford beck basin above the borough of Bradford 2 —It is difficult to say exactly, but I think that about half of the 11,000 acres will be found to be above the town, those 11,000 acres include the borough. 9020. So that the water supply formerly to the beck would come from about 5,000 acres, besides what was pumped below 2–Yes, and the unoccupied and agricultural parts of the borough. 9021. In the water schemes which have been car- ried out is any water taken from the area of the Bradford beck basin –None at all. 9022. Will you state the areas of the other water- sheds which you take for your town water supply, quite independent of the compensation reservoirs?— I can give you the water-shed areas in the valley of each of the rivers. 9023. For instance, take the Barden beck 2–We take the whole of that. 9024. That is 5,690 acres, is it not ?–The Barden beck area is 2,610 acres, the 5,690 acres is the area not only of the Barden beck but of all other becks appro- priated or included in the area; the catchment basin of all that goes to the reservoir is 2,610 acres. 9025. Do those streams come to your town supply 2 —Yes. 9026. The area for the town supply from the Barden beck district is 5,690 acres —It is. 9027. The next reservoir is the Chelker reservoir, that is 1,860 acres 2–Yes. - 9028. Below that what is there 2–Below that there is 2,220 acres. - 9029. What is the area on the south side of the Aire from which you collect water for the supply of the town 2––900 acres. ERADFORD. Mr. C. Gott. 13 Nov. 1866. M m 3 278 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, BRADFORD. 9030. Will you be kind enough to add up those amounts and see what the quantity is -I make it 10,670 acres. 9031. Then the area from which you obtain water beyond your beck is larger than the area of the beck itself within the borough and about the borough 2–It is about the same, namely, 11,000 acres. 9032. About what is the rainfall in the district 2– We estimate it at 36 inches. 9033. What do you consider to be the evaporation in this neighbourhood –Of course from that area we raise a great deal of water unfit for town use, owing to the floods. 9034. Do you consider that you will be able to obtain from that area about 10,000,000 gallons a day steadily —Yes. 9035. At present you take about 4,500,000 gallons f —Yes. 90.36. And for that you say you receive about 22,000l. a year?—Yes. 9037. How much does that give you per cent. upon the capital which you have expended ?–About three per cent., I think, or a little over. 9038. And you have 5,500,000 gallons a day still to dispose of 2–Yes. 9039. The town you say has a constant supply – Yes. 9040. Do you expect to have a demand for that re- maining 5,500,000 gallons a day?—Yes, we think so, in the course of years; not an immediate demand. 9041. What will that demand be chiefly for 2–For the development of the trade, and for selling in the neighbourhood. 9042. You have mentioned that there are about 1,500 waterclosets at present discharging into your sewers ?–Yes. 9043. But it appears that there are about 14,000 privies in the district 2–Yes. 9044. Therefore you have not as yet connected the houses to any very great extent with your sewers ?— No ; the practice of the corporation so far has been not to encourage the adoption of waterclosets, espe- cially in small houses, partly on account of the imper- fect character of the sewerage of the borough, and partly from the want of water; that has been the practice in previous years. 9045. But when you obtain this larger supply from the reservoir at the wharf, will you connect all the houses with the sewers and encourage waterclosets to be erected 2–No, I can hardly say that. I do not think that there is any intention to do that. 9046. Then is it the intention of the corporation to encourage the continuance of the system of cesspools and privies 2–So far as all the legislation connected with Bradford has gone the corporation have no power to do anything else than to allow the erection of ash- pits and privies. 9047. They have no power to compel their removal? —No, nor to prevent their erection. 9048. You have power to control their erection ?— Yes, as to their number and where they should be. 9049. It is a point of great importance. If there are 14,000 privies still to be connected, and if they should be connected, the nuisance which is acknow- ledged now to be great from the sewage would be immensely multiplied ?–There is no doubt of that. 9050. Therefore the argument would be, that if a large quantity of water is to be brought to a place like Bradford, some provision should be made as to what is to be done with it after it has passed through the sewers ?—Certainly. In fact it is the practice now in all cases, large or small, even if they have water- closets, to have a privy and ashpit erected; it is almost universally done in Bradford. All these ashpits are drained, so that the liquid from them at present finds its way to the sewers. 9051. The expense of removing the contents of all those ashpits you say is now about 2,700l. a year — Yes, for emptying them. 9052. What would it be if there were waterclosets established, and if you had merely to remove the ashes, would the corporation be obliged to do that 2–I think that it would still have to be done by the cor- poration. 9053. What would be the expense of doing it?—I should think that it would not be very much diminished. Of course the ashes in that case would have no value; there would be no return which a contractor could obtain by the sale of them. 9054. And at present they have a value 2–Yes, at present they have some value. 9055. I do not think that you told us exactly what proportion of money you received from the trade and from the house supply;-No, I was not able to tell you that. 9056. I see that in your list of charges you charge so much for a bore of a certain size for the supply to a house º-Not at all; that is only for trade purposes where water is supplied by meter. 9057. How do you manage it at different heights, the water must be at different degrees of pressure ?— Certainly ; the pressure varies in different parts of the town. 9058. These charges are all by meter 2–Yes. 9059. Can you state how many manufacturers you supply with water at the rate of 11,000 gallons a day, which I see is about 6d. per thousand gallons 2–I cannot do so now, I can only tell you by referring to the book. I have not the information at hand. 9060. I should be glad if you could give us that information ?–1 will prepare that information for the Commissioners. 9061. Does it not appear desirable that when Par- liament grants powers to a town situated like Brad- ford, for bringing a large quantity of water to it, the question of what is to be done with that water after it passes from the town should be considered at the same time –Probably it might be a matter for Par- liament to inquire into, but so far as the town is con- cerned the water cannot do any harm ; it must im- prove the condition of the waste water which is the ułtimate result from the town. 9062. Bradford appears to be dependent for its ex- tension in a great measure upon the water supply 2– Probably so, indirectly. I should think that the trade of the town would have extended whether the water supply had been brought or not ; that is to say, that private individuals must have found water in some other way for themselves if the corporation had not done it. No doubt it makes the town more convenient, and it is an encouragement for trade to settle in Bradford, because there is a copious supply of water. 9063. Do you not think that the extent of the town would have been limited if it had not obtained the large water supply which it has obtained from a distance?–It is very difficult to answer that question. 9064. Would it not have been easier to get rid of the sewage than it is now. That matter you repre- sent as being a serious difficulty, in consequence of the large population, and the small district in which it is contained 2–Yes; I think that you will find from the population returns that the town increased quite as rapidly before the waterworks were established as since, perhaps more so. 9065. (Professor Way.) We were told that the increase of population was not to be taken in reference to the increase of manufactures —I think not. 9066. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you give any idea of the quantity of water which is used per head per day by the poor of Bradford 2–No, I do not think that I can give you any nearer estimate of it than you have already got, of 15 or 16 gallons per head per day. No restriction whatever is placed upon the quantity of water which they use, they can draw whatever they choose, and they do not pay either more or less, whether they use much or little. 9067. Have you the means of separating any por- tion of the town which is inhabited by the poor, so as to see what quantity of water you supply to that population?—I hardly think that there are such means. Probably we might find a district which would include a score or 40 or 50 houses. - RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 279 9068. Is there no ground down the valley of the Aire, between this town and Leeds, to which the sewage might be applied ?–I do not think that there is any appropriate land between Bradford and Leeds, there is none that I am aware of. The valley down to Apperley Bridge and below Apperley Bridge is a valley occupied for suburban residences. There are several villages all the way down. 9069. If you pumped your sewage, is there any land in the neighbourhood to which the sewage could be applied with advantage –The hill sides all have a very rapid descent. I do not know of any district where the sewage could be taken with advantage until you get to some distance below Leeds, 9070. What do you recommend the corporation to do with their sewage 2–As I have already explained, that is a point upon which we have not yet arrived at a conclusion. It partly depends upon the informa- tion which we obtain from other towns, and probably upon the result of your present inquiry, as to what may prove to be practicable in cases like ours. 9071. You are going on day by day and week by week increasing the pollution by sewage 2–We do not consider that we are increasing the pollution in any way whatever, but rather the reverse. 9072. You are putting more pollution into the river ?—No ; it all now goes into the river, but we are providing new and improved channels through which the sewage of the town will get into the river and in a more rapid way, and certainly there will be a great improvement in the state of the Bradford - beck when those works are completed. 9073. But are you not increasing the quantity which goes into the beck —Not at all. 9074. And you do not intend to increase it?—Not by our sewerage works. No doubt as the town extends the quantity of sewage matter will increase. 9075. Have you any separate returns of the death rate in different parts of the borough of Bradford – No. 9076. Do you know whether there are some parts more healthy than others ?–Yes. No doubt there are several parts which we know to be very un- healthy. - 9077. Can you trace that unhealthiness to any distinct cause –They are the lowest parts of the town, where the houses are very thickly grouped together, and a large number of persons live within a very small area. - 9078. Are those the houses where these cesspools exist?—There are ashpits. They are distinct from cesspools. Cesspools are more in the nature of places made below the surface of the ground. These ash- pits are places erected above the surface of the ground. 9079. Are there no cesspits at all 2–There are very few, if any, cesspools. I am not aware of any. 9080. The unhealthiness you say is chiefly in the lower parts of the town 2–Not necessarily the lower parts, but the thickly populated parts, where a great number of small houses are grouped together on a small piece of ground. 9081. And it is not specially where these ashpits predominate —Not at all. In fact the ashpits are all over the borough, and therefore that hardly could be the case. - 9082. (Professor Way.) You have spoken about the application of sewage. I suppose that the pump- ing of sewage is like the pumping of water, namely, a question which can be reduced to a calculation ?— Certainly ; sewage is rather worse to pump than clean water. 9083. But still it is to be pumped?–Yes. 9084. The question of situation I suppose resolves itself into a question of pumping 2–Yes, in some In easull'e. 9085. Mr. Filliter at Leeds told us that he could pump 1,000 gallons of water 250 feet high for a half- penny ?–That I suppose is apart from all expenses of plant, and machinery, and so on and no doubt he would have it as a part of a large scheme. I do not know what the cost of the London pumping is, but probably that would be the best criterion to follow, where they actually pump sewage. 9086. Where sewage is formed in a valley where there is a difficulty in getting it into a position in the country where it can be dealt with, is the question of expense so very great that we cannot consider it 2 –In the first place, it is a question of expense, and of very great expense, and there is then the feeling that whatever is done should not be optional, but should be enforced upon all localities and all towns. 9087. I suppose that primâ facie it would be right that people who take water which they find pure, should restore it, if they possibly can, to the com- munity again in a pure state, or as nearly pure as they can 2–I think it very desirable and very important that that should be done. 9088. Therefore there is not any great hardship upon the community in declaring it an established principle that people have no business to pour dirty water into rivers ?–No, everyone would be glad to see any means by which such a result could be established; and so far as the Bradford corporation are concerned, I have no doubt they would be glad to take any means to obtain such a result. The bringing of pure water at once into a town certainly has the effect of diluting and making less offensive the refuse water from a town. 9089. You had no intention of saying that it was a right and proper thing that because you had the means of obtaining pure water, therefore you should damage your neighbours below you with impure water 2– Certainly not. I take the existence of the town to be a fact, and I take the bringing of an additional quan- tity of pure water to it to be something to the advan- tage of everybody, and certainly to the disadvantage of no one. 9090. Then, again, I take it that water supply is a very large element of trade, say of dyeing or finishing goods?—Certainly. - 9091. Originally these trades located themselves upon these rivers because they were pure ?—That no doubt was the original cause of their coming. 9092. Then who suffer by the pollution of these rivers 2–No doubt the inhabitants of the districts through which these waters flow. 9093. And the manufacturers ?—Certainly. 9094. They come there for pure water, and find it impure ?–No doubt. 9095. What relation do you imagine exists between the value of pure water and the production of market- able goods, is it a large element in manufactures to have pure water –I suppose (in fact I know) that many trades cannot be carried on without it, scarcely any trade I should think can be carried on without pure water, it is an absolute necessity to them. 9096. What is the average price which manufac- turers pay for your water –About 6d. per 1,000 gallons, the price is gradually getting lower. 9097. Do they consume a large quantity at that price —Yes. - 9098. Would a manufacturer, having a large quan- tity of water passing his works, get it cheaper from the stream, supposing it to be clean, or from your water- works –Probably for some purposes he would get it cheaper from the stream, supposing it to be clean, but not for all purposes. 9099. Which do you think most economical, to make the stream impure, and then to fetch water from a distance, because you cannot have pure water from the stream, or to endeavour to keep the stream clean * —If it were possible, by any process to keep the stream clean, to obviate the necessity of obtaining pure water from other sources, no doubt the cheaper way would be to keep the stream clean, but I apprehend that it would hardly ever come to that. 9100. How much of the town of Bradford is sup- plied from the Many wells?—A very small portion of the town. - 9101. Out of what sort of land does that water flow, is iſ from the millstone grit?—Yes. 9102. Is it not a particularly fine water —I think that perhaps it is harder than some other water which BRADFORD. Mr. C. Gott. 13 Nov. 1866. M m 4 280 IRIVERS COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRAIDFORD. Mr. C. Goit. 13 Nov. 1866. --- Mr. J. Ingham. we supply, but I believe it to be very pure, very good Water. 9103. Do you think that it would be a type of the water which you generally supply –Scarcely; in some respects it would be better, but so far as hardness is concerned probably rather worse. 9104. You have spoken of covering over the Brad- ford beck --Yes. 9105. And converting it into a sewer –Yes. 9106. That I presume might meet the evil so far as Bradford is concerned, but would it improve the river in any shape 2–No; the reason why the covering over of the Bradford beck was suggested was to protect the beck from being made into a sewer, that was my object. 9107. To prevent its being an outfall from different factories —Certainly ; to prevent its being interfered with in any way whatever. 9108. But I suppose you would acknowledge the existing outfalls into the beck —No, I should propose to take them into the new sewers. 9109. It would make no real difference I suppose in the river ?—Not below Bradford. The witness withdrew. Mr. JoHN INGHAM (Bradford) examined. 9110. (Chairman.) You are a dyer —Yes. 9111. Where are your works situated 2–In the valley at the east end of the town. 9112. We went over them, did we not ?—Yes. 9113. What number of hands do you now employ P —From 600 to 700. 9114. Do you know what number of dye-vats or cisterns you have upon the premises —No. 9115. How long have your works been established at that point?—We commenced building them in 1850. 9116. Are they as large as any in the borough 2– I should think not quite. Mr. Ripley's, I think, are larger. 9117. Did you carry on dyeing operations in any other part of Yorkshire before you came here 2–Yes, at Halifax. 9118. Had you any special reason for removing from Halifax here 2–We had more reasons than one. At Halifax we were nearly at the top of a stream called the Ovenden brook, and our neighbours below complained that we fouled their water, and they gave us the benefit of a lawsuit and also of a suit in chan- cery, and we had to act the same by our friends above as well. 9119. You removed away because of those law- suits 2—We came away in order to create peace and quietness in the neighbourhood. We sold the estate. 9120. Then you came away from a clean place to one which was so dirty that it could not be polluted — Yes; that was our intention, I think, as nearly as may be. 9121. What class of goods do you dye –Very nearly all classes of goods, from the raw material in every fibre to the finest spun yarn, and we have some piece trade which we have commenced this year. We have a large finishing establishment. 9122. Are all the goods which you dye used in England –No; we do a great deal for export. 9123. To what part of the world –Germany, and Russia, and to America. We also do a great deal of work for our own country. We have a great Berlin wool trade with London. 9124. Do you use much logwood, and other woods of that class 2—Yes. - 9125. Is it in the chip or ground —We chiefly use chip, about 600 tons a year. 9126. What do you do with the spent chips?— Hitherto we have done the best that we could with them. 9127. Do you burn them 2–No. 9128. Will not they burn ?—Yes, if we put our- selves to the trouble and expense, but it would be a very expensive operation. 9129. Therefore you let them go down the river ? —Yes. 9130. Do you use much indigo 2–A little, some 10 or 12 chests of indigo in a year. 9131. Have you ever tried to recover the waste indigo from any of your vats?—No. 9132. Have you ever heard of its being recovered P —I have heard tell of some part of it being recovered; but for the little matter of indigo which I use it would not be worth my while to attempt to re- cover it. 9133. Do you use any of these new dyes —Yes, we use a large amount of the aniline dyes. 9134. Do you use much acid with your dyes?—Yes, a great quantity. 9135. What volume of water do you use in your operations?—About 500,000 gallons a day. 9136. Do you obtain it from the town or from your own boreholes —We obtain the chief part of it from our own boreholes, and a little from the town. 9137. What is the difference in the quality of those two waters, is one harder than the other ?—Our water is 20 per cent. softer, as shown by Clark’s soap test. There is carbonate of soda in it, it runs out of the millstone grit. 9138. Do you use water power or steam power — Nothing but steam power. 9139. What extent of horse power do you use 2– Our boilers are about 420-horse power. 9140. How much coal per annum do you use 2– About 13,000 or 14,000 tons. 9141. Have you any idea of the weight of ashes which that quantity of coal makes —About a quarter will be ashes. Our ashes are a very necessary thing for us, being low in the valley we have to raise the surface of the ground from six to seven feet. 9142. Have you sent any of your ashes into the river ?—No. 9143. You are covering the ground with them — Yes. 9144. Then your ashes up to this time have not been a nuisance to you?—They have not. 9145. If they were a nuisance would you at all scruple to put them into the river?—Supposing that I had the right, the same as anybody else, I should not. 9146. Do you think that it is a proper disposal of ashes to put them into the river ?—A small portion of ashes does the river good, scours it out. Those ashes go down to Leeds, and there they take them out of the river bottom as sand, and sell them to us at 3s.6d. a ton. 9147. (Professor Way.) Do you mean that it is economical to pitch ashes in here in order that they may be carted out at Leeds back again –Yes, because we use them with the lime for building purposes. .9148. (Chairman.) Have you formed any idea as to whether your foul water could be purified ?–It is so gigantic a piece of business that I dare not attempt it. I dare not look at it, I dare not take it into my serious consideration. I think that there are four or five dyeworks in the town nearly equal to mine; some of them are larger, and consequently yield to the river more filth. It will be an expensive affair to deodorize all the water so fouled, and it will also take a great space of ground. Of course subsiding tanks would be of some service, but I do not see how they would be possible in the neighbourhood of Bradford. There is no ground to spare here. I think that it would be better to carry the refuse water a long way down below Leeds to a separate tank. 9149. What would the users of water power say to that ?–Of course they would object. 9150. (Professor Way.) You do not find any very great trouble in pumping 500,000 gallons a day ?— We use a pair of engines for it. We pump 400,000 gallons a day, and we get the remainder from the town, about 100,000 gallons, or perhaps not so much as that. We feed our boilers with the town's water. 9151. If anybody told you that the quantity which you pumped was so serious a consideration that you could not look at it, what should you say ?—There is RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 281 a difference in taking 400,000 gallons of clean water and bringing it to the surface, and carrying it through a large establishment, and manipulating it in the dif- ferent operations of dyeing, washing, and cleansing. Dirty water is quite a different thing from clean water. It is a great deal easier at any time to do wrong than to do right. I should not attempt to make it pure water, so that you should drink it, or that I should use it in dyeing. 9.152. Still, will not you admit that it is the quality of the water, when you have done with it, which is the trouble, and not the qmantity ?—I do not believe that it is possible to get the same results with a large quantity. You shall have any amount of money at your disposal, and any amount of utensils, and I do not believe that you could accomplish the cleansing of the large quantity of foul water which necessarily passes through a town like Bradford, in the same way as you can a small experimental matter in your laboratory. 9153. Out of the 400,000 gallons which you pump, you use a very large quantity, first for the engines, and then for the washing, is the actual quantity which runs from the dye-vafs very large — No. 9154. What quantity do you think you discharge from the dye-vats in a week, or a day ?—It would be about one-third of the whole which is used for the operation. In some things it would be only a quarter, and in some things it constitutes the whole. 9155. Out of the whole 500,000 gallons of water which you use, how much would be actually used in the dye-vats, and how much for washing —I dare- say that about two-fifths of the whole would go out of the dye-vats. 9156. Irrespective of what is used for washing 2– Yes. 9157. We have been told that in two or three large establishments the quantity of water used and dis- charged from the dye-vats is equal to 200,000 or 300,000 gallons a day. I mean from the dye-vats and not from the washing of the goods. Surely your filling and reſilling of the dye-vats does not amount to 200,000 gallons a day –We have a stream running in, and it runs out at the other end discoloured and use. less, and I daresay that there is rather better than twice as much water running through the same establishment for cleaning that class of work. You must understand that we are speaking of a different class of dyeing from what you have been hitherto examining upon, unless you have examined some people in Huddersfield who are in the same trade. 9158. I can quite understand your using 500,000 gallons a day; but the question which I wish to press upon you is, whether you can apportion that water, and say how much is dye water running from the dye-vats, and how much is waste water after the goods have been dyed –We use two-fifths in the dyeing and three fifths in the washing. We send down large quantities of other things which are deodorizers, so that there is not a nuisance. In our own works we use a greater quantity of acid, chloride of lime, than anywhere else in the neighbourhood. We yearly consume at least 200 tons of acids in dyeing and bleaching. We have a large bleaching establishment. 9159. You think that that acts as a deodorizer of the Bradford beck —I think that the Bradford beck is only a nuisance in colour, and that it would be less so if it was made straight from Bradford to Shipley; of course that would affect our neighbours below beneficially in the same proportion, as the water would go down more quickly to them. I believe the straightening the rivers would be the best method of cleansing them. 916O. Does the character of the water which you pump from your boreholes affect the dyeing —Yes, it is very good dye water, generally speaking. 916.1. Is it absolutely alkaline —There is about three quarters of a cwt. of carbonate of soda, out of an evaporation for a fortnight in a 30-horse boiler. We can manage to extract that quantity of pure crystal. 17159.-2, 9162. Then you have to use a little more acid in your dyeing operations —Yes. 9163. (Chairman.) Is the reason why you do not use that water for steam purposes that it contains carbonate of soda 2–No. From the town's pressure we can force the water into our boilers without pumps, and therefore we make use of the town's pressure for feeding the boilers. 9164. Do you know what it costs you in a year to pump your 400,000 gallons a day ?—The pump and the well, and one thing and another, are rather expen- sive. I suppose that it would cost us 700l. a year. 9165. You do not lift that water very high above the surface —We lift it about 28 feet above the surface. 9166. And how much from below the surface — About 60 feet. 9167. That is less than 100 feet 2—Yes. 9168. What do you pay a ton for your coals —We are paying 10s. 6d. for the coals which we used for that engine. We keep that boiler at a little higher We shall have to pay 11s. 4d. for the coals after to-day. 9169. Do you burn more than a ton a day in lifting that water —I should think that we do. 9170. That is too much, unless you have very bad boilers ?—We have all sorts of boilers; the estab- lishment cost upwards of 4,000l., the well sinking, the pump fitting, and every other thing. 9171. That at 5 per cent. would be 200l. a year 2– Yes, and there is the wear and tear of it. 9172. A very small per-centage would cover that ? —There are the coals, and the oil, and tallow. 917.3. A ton of coals a day would be enough 2–A ton a day would not be enough, and the pump is a very expensive thing. I think that you will find another person at Halifax who has been pumping in the same manner, and who will tell you a different tale from what you state. I would buy my water from the town rather than bore another hole without knowing that there was water when I got down. 9.174. But you have not taken out an accurate re- turn of what it has cost 2–Perhaps not, but I think that I can judge within a little. 9.175. (Professor Way.) I want to know whether, having gone to that expense to bring water into your works, and having had the use of that water for a very valuable commodity which returns so many thou- sands a year, you would consider it a great hardship to be called upon to deal with that water so as to restore it to the river with the minimum amount of impurity which it was practicable to leave in it 2–I believe that if you attempted to force me to clean that water, so that it should be as clean as when I got it, you would force me to shut up my establishment. 91.76. As clean as when you got it is not the ques- tion which I put to you ?–Or moderately clean : there would be a very great hardship in forcing me to do it, if you forced no one else to do it ; but I am quite willing to assist in carrying out any scheme which could be reasonably and effectually carried out, and which would cause our friends below our works to cease complaining. - 91.77. Provided that any reasonable plan could be shown to you, as a large consumer of water and a large polluter of water (if I may say so), would you think it quite right, and a part of your duty to the public in general, if it lay within your power, to do something to purify that water before discharging it into the streams of the country —Yes, 91.78. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you dye the wool or the waste —I dye both wool and waste; we dye all fibres, from the raw material to the cloth. 91.79. Do you clean the wool as well ?—Yes; we clean and scour sheep's wool, from 10,000 lbs. to 15,000 lbs. a day of sheep's wool. 9180. In pieces what weight do you dye *—About 1,000 pieces a day. 9181. About what will they average in weight — About 7 lbs., perhaps 6 lbs. N m pressure. BRADFORD. Mr. J. Ingham. 13 Nov. 1866. 282 fºlvKRS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. B I 1. BRADFORD. Mr. J. Ingham. 13 Nov. 1866. 9182. Is that wool –There is a large quantity of cotton. I dye from 10,000 to 12,000 lbs. of cotton a day, iss Do you dye any alpaca, or anything of that sort 2–The pieces which I speak of include alpaca, and the wool also includes alpaca. We have a large worsted yarn trade as well, 9184. In dyeing –Yes, from 5,000 to 6,000 lbs. a day. - 9.185. Will those figures added together give us the whole amount of wool and cotton —Yes. 9186. (Chairman.) What number of privies have ou ?–10. 9187. What do you do with the refuse –We for- merly used to put it into the beck, but in consequence of a suggestion which we received from you, we have now built some privies and carry the refuse on to the land. We find that more profitable and more useful. I did not do it merely in consequence of your recom- mendation. 9.188. You find that in that special instance you can carry on the operation without polluting the river ?— Yes; the wood is another thing. I do not hesitate to say that it is necessary for the wood to be kept out of the river, at least all chip-wood, but the dissolved matters cannot be got out of the water. 9189. Then the only thing to which you do not see your way would be the purification of the liquid im- pregnated with the dye refuse 2–Yes. 9.190. Have you ever tried whether deposit of sedi- ment would take place if you allowed the liquid to stand for any length of time 2–Yes; I have no doubt that the colouring matter in the water is a floating matter (I speak of the whole of the colour which we have), and that it will very quickly fall, and that the water will become as clear as crystal. - 9191. (Mr. Harrison.) You have tried some ex- periments, have you not, as to separating the colouring matter 2–Yes, we do it every morning, all the dregs are left at the bottom and the water is clear. 9192. Have you tried any experiments to clear the water –I never tried any experiments except upon small quantities; I tried to filter the water at the Halifax works, in order to take out the filth which came from the works above me, but my filter was of no use in less than four months. I had a filter 40 yards across the reservoir, but the filter was filled up in less than four months, and then it would have been necessary to take the filter out and wash it stone by stone and pebble by pebble. 9193. If you took the whole of your water from the corporation according to their schedule of prices you would have it at about 2d. per 1,000 gallons — Yes. 9194. What would that cost you?—I do not know, I never reckoned it up to a nicety. 91.95. It would not be a very desperate sum above what you pay now 2–I say that we cannot pump it at less than 1%d. per 1,000 gallons. 9196. (Chairman.) If you had to pay 24, per 1,000 gallons for it what would it amount to ?—I have always considered that the price of the water, if I used it from the town would be about from 1,400l. to 1,800l. a year. I have just inquired and I am informed that we are now paying about 400/.. a year. 9197. (Mr. Harrison.) But you are paying more than 2a. per 1,000 gallons –Yes. 9198. (Chairman.) Do you use that 100,000 gallons from the town because you cannot get enough from your borehole, or is it for any special purposes 2–It is just because we have not enough from our bore hole. We have some springs which give us a little water but they are not certain; for the last three or four years previous to this year we have scarcely had any benefit from them. 9199. (Mr. Harrison.) I think that you have one pump working inside 2–Yes, we have a hollow rod, and a solid rod, and the solid rod is working inside the hollow rod ; we have two lifting buckets in our pump, that is the reason of the solid and the hollow rod. 92.00. (Chairman.) Then you do not comply with the old proverb not to have two buckets in the same well ?—No ; we have another little pump in the same well with a centrifugal or rotatory motion, ºne ºf 920.1. If it could be shown to you that you could filter the waste water at a cost not greater than you are paying for pumping it when clear, do you think that it would induce you to undertake the filtering of it f—I have not room. 9202. But suppose that you had room —That is supposing something which cannot be. 9203. You do not occupy all the land in that part of the world —No, but they who have it I think will not allow me to have it for that purpose. 9204. What is land worth an acre just there?–I do not know. There is a man here who owns it all. They sell it by the yard. I offered him some at 5s., and he offered me some at 7s., and there is a fence between us, and a very few yards off that land is a guinea a yard. 9205. (Mr. Harrison.) Is anything done with your suds –No, I do nothing with my suds at present. I had intended to do something with them ; I wanted to have a little bit of land in the neighbourhood, but I could not get it, and I therefore thought proper to let the suds go down the river. 9206. (Chairman.) What weight of soap do you use per annum ?—A little over 50 tons. 9207. Do you know what is about the average price per ton?—It averages from 60s. to 80s. a pack of 240 lbs. 9208. The whole 50 tons now pass clean away from you ?–Yes, at present. 9209. Have you seen any of the grease extracting processes?—Yes, they are profitable processes, but they are a nuisance about an establishment. I would not have such a thing unless I was forced in conse- quence of my fouling my neighbours' water. 9210. Do you know how much is obtained in York- shire by different manufacturers for their suds?—No, a great amount of oil and grease is obtained. 9211. Would you be surprised if I told you that it was at least 100,000l. a year —I should not ; I have a great offer for mine. 92.12. (Professor Way.) You, I suppose, use a great quantity of oil?—Yes, we use a great quantity of palm oil, we make it into soap ourselves. 92.13. Do you not use a quantity of oil independent of that, as oil?—We use it for washing, and for things of that description ; we use oil for neutralising, and for making into soap for the purpose of softening our Cottons. 9214. (Chairman.) Should you consider it a great hardship if any law was passed which told you that you should not put any soap refuse into the refuse because you could utilize it —Do you mean me indi- vidually. 92.15. Not only you, but everybody?—Certainly not. 92.16. It does not take a very large area of ground to extract the soap refuse —It does not, but unfortu- mately the scouring establishment where I should say the greatest amount of soap is, is in such a position that you must pass through the greatest portion of the establishment to collect the grease. 9217. At present you are not made to adopt the process, and you do not do it?—I could do it if I had a little bit of land on the other side of the fence; the proprietor only wanted 7s. for that, I offered him 5s., the same price as I could get for land of my own, but he would not take it. 9218. People pay as much as 18l. a ton for the matter extracted from the refuse, and I should think that they would get one-fourth of yours back again P —According to the best price which I have ever heard offered, the extreme only amounts to one-twelfth of the original value of the soap in that sediment water. I think that they would now give me about one- thirtieth. 9219. (Professor Way.) For the opportunity of recovering the valuable matter –Perhaps they would RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 283 put down the plant themselves, but I of course should have to find the ground. 9220. (Mr. Harrison.) In what year did you come to Bradford from Halifax *—The property was an open field when we commenced, and we started building in 1850. 9221. Did you purchase the land upon which you built your present premises?—Yes. 9232. How much per yard was the land –We gave 2s, for it then. 9223. And now you cannot purchase land adjoining, under what price –The land is worth 3s.6d, or 4s. a yard below me, but the land where I wanted to put my suds was 7s. ; the proprietor may have raised his price now. 9224. (Chairman.) Do you think that land would at all increase in value if Bradford beck was made more pure than it is now 2–On the hill sides I dare- say it would. I believe that the hill sides would be bought up directly for villa residences; but the Brad- ford beck is not so great a nuisance as another nuisance which we have in the neighbourhood, which perhaps it is not your business to inquire into. 9225. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you mean the canal?— Yes. 9226. (Chairman.) You mean the canal in the town 2–The canal below the town, the canal which comes up to the town of Bradford ; the Shipley canal I suppose it is called. 9227. (Professor Way.) Is not it fed from the Bradford beck 2–Yes. 9228. (Chairman.) Is the smell very offensive at any time in summer as it flows past your premises?— No ; in dry weather in summer there is next to no water in the beck, except what we pour in ourselves; but this summer there has been plently of water coming down, and it has been very sweet. 92.29. How far is the sewer outlet below your works? About 500 to 600 yards. 9230. Have you ever experienced any nuisance from it when the wind has been blowing up the valley — No ; that is sweet compared with the canal. 9231. (Mr. Harrison.) In a dry summer the whole of the beck is turned into the sewer, there is no water running down the beck —There is not. 9232. Then what becomes of it 2–It goes into the canal, that is to say, so much of the water as comes up to the flood gates. 9233. (Chairman.) Then the sewer and the canal jointly take it all?—Yes. 9234. (Mr. Harrison.) Is more water taken into the canal than is requisite for passing the boats below the locks?—I should think not. 9235. (Professor Way.) Then at that time the outfall of the sewer into the beck is actually all that is running into the beck?—Yes, except what we turn down which is very little. 9236. Otherwise the beck is a sewer 2–Yes. 9237. (Chairman.) Are you now building any extensions to your works —Yes. 9238. Then you will be obliged to get more land 2– We have some land, but it is not in that condition that we can make a filtering bed of it. We could not have a filtering bed without raising the foul water eight feet to the surface, and after that we must lift it by mechanical power. 9239. I presume that you have not seen any pro- cess of filtration by mechanical pressure in the same way as clay waters are filtered —I have not. 9240. There are presses in which water impregnated with clay, and in which water from paper making which is impregnated with the fibre of the paper, is filtered, and the substance is all recovered 2–That is something which I did not know; the heavy dyers and papermakers near Edinburgh do not use it. 9241. (Professor Way.) Does the fact that they were making the water impure prove that they would not have done otherwise 2–No, it does not; but I think that there is so much property involved in that neighbourhood, that it would have been to their benefit to save the fibre. 9242. (Chairman.) It is only the old story that when people get quarrelling they will spend three times as much over the quarrel, as would have done the work without quarrelling. They have spent about 20,000l. on that river in law suits 2–Yes. But to compel a paper maker to carry on his business without fouling water below is to prevent his working. It is an impossibility for a man to do away with the alkaline and the ash, he must carry them into his waters. There are great bleaching powers connected with paper establishments. 9243. There are some very large persons concerned with paper making who say differently –Perhaps SO. 9244. (Professor Way.) Mr. Joynson is a large manu- facturer of paper, he pumps the whole of the water flow- ing from the machine through presses, and separates all the objectionable matter, and gets about from 15 to 20 cwt. of fibre per week worth 30l. or 35l. He would not have done it unless he had been obliged by the law to do it, but at this moment he positively gets 1,000l. a year from that very source?—I always think that we are open to receive information. I certainly do not think that we are quite as clever as they are in London, where they have no manufacturers. 9245. (Mr. Harrison.) What should you consider a burdensome sum for you to have to pay annually in purifying your water, supposing that other dyers were obliged to do the same –It is only a question of supply and demand, which rules the price of every- thing. If I could not pay whatever was demanded of me, I must either raise my price or give up my busi- ness. If it was a shilling more, of course I should be able to pay it if I could get it from my customers; but I could not pay it unless I could get it from them, 9246. Therefore if it can be shown that the thing can be done, and if you are put to an expense in puri- fying the water, then, provided all other dyers are made to do the same thing, it will be merely the ques- tion of adding a little to the cost of dyeing 2—As soon as I see a practical scheme which I think is worth anybody’s while to go into, I shall be as ready to adopt it as anybody else. 9247. (Professor Way.) If you found that the ques- tion of purification could be reduced to a question of mechanical filtration within a small space, would your views upon that point alter P-I have seen quick filters. I have now a filter on my own ground which will filter a great quantity of water in a day if you get a great pressure upon it; if I had 100 lbs. pressure I would filter my 500,000 gallons a day, but I believe that if I tried to filter that quantity of water which we turn out at the tail of our dyeworks we must give up before we had gone five minutes, we should be clogged fast. Where would you put your refuse 2 Where is it? It is at the top of your filter, and you must clean your filter often if you work it quickly; that is the experience which I have had. 9248. The chairman has spoken to you of filtering clays. As regards pottery water, would you be sur- prised to find that there is now a filter in use in nine- tenths of the potteries in England in which the clay is separated from the water at an expense of 2s. 6d. per ton of clay, including capital and all expenses. There is the fact that the solid matter can be separated from the liquid at that rate. The practice used to be to take clay and mix it with water and run it off after a certain time, during which it was let to settle 2–Yes, that was the old system. 9249. And the sludge, namely, the clay and water at the bottom, was dried in kilns. They do not do that now, but they now pump this water through a machine at the rate of 2s. 6d. a ton of clay separated 2 —I wish that I could get 2s. 6d. a ton for refuse out of my water. - 92.50. The question is, how much clean water you can throw back into the stream 2–In large works there are the washings of the yard, which include the grinding away of the flags with which the yard is set, and the different sands in the establishment; practically BRADFORD. Mr. J. Ingham. 13 Nov. 1866. --- N n 2 284 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVILENCE. BRADFORD. Mr. J. Ingham. f 13 Nov. 1866. Mr. S. Smith. these would clog up your filters if nothing else did so, because you may depend upon it that they do not only requently impede the flow of the filter water in the tanks but they shut the filters completely up, so that there would be all this refuse as well as the colouring matter. 9251. (Chairman.) You think that filtering is not practicable, so far as you know it?—So far as I have seen it hitherto I do not think that it is. Pressure would be a very expensive operation, and as our town's officers have told you we have quite sufficient rates already. The witness withdrew. Mr. SAMUEL SMITH (Bradford) examined. 9252. (Mr. Harrison.) You are a dyer residing in the borough of Bradford —Yes, in the township of WIorton. - 9253. How many years have you been resident in the township of Horton —For nearly 30 years. 9254. Do you remember the condition of Bradford beck when you first came to live here?—Yes; in the neighbourhood of our works it is as clear now as it was then. 92.55. Are there as many works above yours as there were then –The works have increased in number, but the water is comparatively pure still. 9256. Do you know the state of the beck below the town 2–Yes. 92.57. How is it now as compared with what it was formerly 2–I do not know that it is much worse now than it was in those days, there were dyeing estab- lishments on it then. 9258. Was it not the practice to send a large quantity of Bradford goods to Leeds to be dyed 2– Yes, it was. 92.59. Has dyeing been extended in Bradford much of late, or has it been removed from Leeds to any extent?—No dyers have come from Leeds to Brad- ford that I know of, no principals or heads of firms; within the space of 30 years the dyeing establishments in Bradford have increased in number by about two. 9260. Is the quantity of goods that are dyed in Bradford much in excess of what it was 30 years ago? —It has greatly increased. 9261. Do you mean that the number of dyers has been increased by only two, and that the quantity of goods dyed has been greatly increased ?–Yes. 9262. In what proportion has that increase of trade taken place —I have no memoranda to speak from on that point. 9263. Goods are still sent from Bradford to Leeds to be dyed 2–Yes. 9264. How many hands do you employ in dyeing 2 —About 500. 9265. What are the kinds of goods that you dye – All kinds of manufactured goods, piece goods for merchants. We do not dye any yarns, or warps, or cotton, for manufactured goods. 9266. On an average how many pieces do you dye in a day ?—I will send you that information; but I may say that we reach 560,000 pieces in a year. 9267. What would be the average weight of those pieces –They vary considerably, from 6 lbs. or 7 lbs. to 24 lbs. 9268. What is the average weight?—I cannot tell Oll. 9269. Can you state what quantity of water you use in your different dyeing processes?—Our daily consumption is about 800,000 gallons. 9270. Is part of that water used for your engines? —Yes. 9271. How much is used for the engines?—I can- not say, because nearly all the water that is used for the engines, after it has been condensed, is used for other purposes, so that the water that is so used does double duty. 9272. What volume of water do you use for dyeing purposes —For making dyeing liquor it is difficult to say. I can only give you a guess; I should think that not above one sixth of what we use is used in dyeing liquor, the greater part of it is used for washing and is never heated at all, the greater quantity of it is scarcely discoloured. 92.73. (Professor Way.) One sixth of what you use would be more than 100,000 gallons a day ?—Yes; but you must recollect that in dyeing many of the vessels are only filled once a day, and some of them are not emptied for two or three weeks together, and the actual amount of the dyeing liquor which is turned down out of the place is not nearly so large as the quantity of water that is used for washing and cleansing. 9274. Did you hear Mr. Ingham give his evidence? -—Yes. 9275. He stated that two-fifths of all the water he consumed was used in the dyeing processes —Yes; but Mr. Ingham's trade is totally different from ours, he dyes warps. 9276. If I understand you aright, this (pointing to a sketch) is the dye-vat in which the goods are dyed? —Yes. 92.77. When the liquid in that vat ceases to be of any use it would be called dye waste, would it not ? —Yes. 9278. When you say that you have a sixth of the whole volume of that, do you mean that you have more than 100,000 gallons a day going in and out of those vats —No, I do not think that we have. I know that the amount of water that goes into the vessels and which is made into dyeing liquor is not so large as that, it is very much smaller. 92.79. 100,000 gallons would fill a very great number of vats —Yes; but we have so large a number that I cannot tell you. I am sure, however, of this, that a very large proportion of the water con- sumed on our premises is used for washing purposes. I believe that one half of it is not even discoloured, and that in that state it passes away. 9280. Supposing dyeing water to be as black as ink, is that the nature of your 800,000 gallons, or of 100,000 gallons, or of 20,000 gallons —I do not think that we turn out 100,000 gallons of dyeing liquor in the course of a day. 928]. (Mr. Harrison.) Where do you get the 800,000 gallons from ?—We pump I should think about three-fourths of it out of wells of our own, and on our own premises. 9282. Of what depth are those wells?—They are sunk about 30 yards in the rock; the boreholes go down a considerable depth. 9283. Do they reach the millstone grit –Isuppose they do. 9284. To what height does the water rise below the surface –It rises up to within about 40 feet, but it has gradually subsided ; 30 years ago, when we first sunk the well, the water in our well rose within 6 feet of the surface of the ground, but it has gradually fallen down until now it does not rise within 40 feet. 9285. To what do you attribute that change – Simply to the exhausting process of continually pumping, to that, and to other people doing the same thing. 9286. To Mr. Ingham and others pumping as well? —Yes; but Mr. Ingham’s works are a mile and a half from us, 9287. Still I suppose you are pumping from the same subterranean reservoir 2–Yes; we happen to have, to the west and south-west, a gradual dip of the strata coming towards us. 9288. So that you will dry Mr. Ingham's source before he will dry yours?—Yes; as far as the natural dip of the strata goes, we have the first pull. 9289. Can you state what it costs you to pump that water —From a halfpenny to twopence per 1,000 gallons. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 285 92.90. It is a close run, is it not, between pumping Formerly we were obliged to make it from urine, but - - - - - BRADFORD. and obtaining a supply from the corporation, if they we found that so great a nuisance that we gave it up. - can supply water at 2d. per 1,000 gallons?—I think 93.12. Is the urine collected from the cottages in Mr. S. Smith. that we pay them now about 600l. a year for water. 9291. Is there any great difference in the quality of the water that you obtain from the wells and that of the water which is supplied by the corporation – We have an idea that we can use the corporation water better for some purposes than ours, at least we fancy so. 92.92. For what purposes do you mean *—For some particular colours. 9293. Do you take advantage of the head of water as Mr. Ingham does —No ; that is rather a nuisance to us. 9294. What quantity of coal do you use in a year * —Our average delivery is about 60 tons a day. 9295. What would the ashes from that quantity of coals amount to ?—About 15 loads. 9296. What do you do with those ashes —That is a matter which has sometimes given us a great deal of trouble. We have been filling up quarries and filling up different places in our neighbourhood, and we have managed to obtain room for tipping in that way, but all our ashes and refuse and solid matter are carried away. 9297. Are your spent dyewoods carried away – The great bulk of the dyewoods that we use are what we call rasped, that is different from chipped wood; we use only a very small portion of chipped wood and it is burned; but the rasped wood is so light, that when the clacks are drawn it runs away into the drain ; it goes away floating. - 92.98. We have been informed that the Aire and Calder Company dredge up a good deal of that wood from the river below 2–It must go somewhere. 9299. Would it be any hardship to you if you were obliged to keep that rasped wood out of the water – I do not know how it could be done very well. 9300. Not by a simple system of filtration —No doubt a system might be devised, but I see no means of applying it at present. 9301. Are any ashes thrown into the river in this neighbourhood —I do not know, except that we never throw in any, nor any solid matter of any kind. 9302. Do you think it would be any hardship upon all persons who make ashes to be obliged to keep them out of the river ?—None at all ; it is only what ought to be done. We never put a single shovel-full of ashes into the river at our place. 9303. Have you ever taken any steps to restore the water to a state of purity after you have used it for dyeing purposes?—No ; but we have been at some ex- pense ourselves, in conjunction with some of our neigh- bours, in carrying our drain some considerable distance down the valley, which enables about five large concerns below us to receive the water of the brook, and use it in as pure a state as it comes to us. Our drain would have been carried still lower down, but the occupier of King's mills did not like to lose our volume of water, so it falls into the goit. 9304. Do you use water from the beck –We use a little for condensing purposes. 9305. Do persons below you also use that water – Yes, for condensing. 9306. How do you manage with regard to privies for the men you employ —We have 12 privies in three sets of four each, and three water closets besides in different parts of the premises. 9307. What becomes of the refuse 2–We have plenty of land, and the refuse is too valuable to be lost. 93O8. Is it collected on the premises?—Yes, we have a mode of conveying it on to the land in our own occupation. 93.09. Do you do so day by day ?–No, it is done at stated periods. 93.10. You find that it is useful to do so 2–Yes. 93.11. Do you collect the urine that is made by the men —No, it is not worth while. We did try it, but it did not answer. We make all our own ammonia, the villages —Not in our neighbourhood, but on the Leeds side of the town it is all collected for the cloth millers. 93.13. What do you use for cleansing chiefly 2–Our processes do not require so much cleansing as woollen cloth or wool. The wool is beautifully scoured before it is combed, and it is made very clean. We use fullers earth. 93.14. What quantity of fullers earth do you use in a year —That is used to cleanse with after the dyeing process. 93.15. How much of it do you use in a year —It may be 20 tons. 93.16. Do you use any soap 2–Yes, we use a little in some of our preparatory processes, but not much. 93.17. What quantity do you consume in a year — I cannot tell; we make the principal part of what we use ourselves. 93.18. Do you make it from oil –Yes, and from an article that we get from Liverpool, from Price's cºndle works. 93.19. Are there sufficient suds in the refuse from your cleansing processes to make it worth your while to recover them —No. 93.20. Should you consider it a hardship if you were called upon to cleanse the water that you use if some simple means of doing it were pointed out to you ?—If a general measure was passed and some practicable means were shown we should be very glad to do what other people do. 9321. You would not object to that ?—No. 9322. What area do your works cover?—About eight acres. 93.23. Did you purchase that land 2–Yes, I did. I bought the first of it in 1835. 9324. What was th: value of the land in that neighbourhood then 2–Then it was worth 4s. a yard. 9325. What is the land adjoining to it worth now * —About a year since I bought some land, and I gave 7s.6d. a yard for it. 9326. (Professor Way.) How much water did you say you bought from the water company ?—I cannot tell you exactly, but the payment we make per quarter is about 150l., which is nearly 600l. a year. 9327. Supposing that annual payment represented 100,000 gallons, or 20,000 gallons, and you were asked to pay, instead of 600l., 700l. a year for the water, would that prevent your using that water?— No. The fact is this, that we were early consumers of the corporation water ; they charged us so much per 1,000 gallons. I represented on several occasions to the engineer the justice and fairness of giving an opportunity to the larger consumers of having water supplied to them at a lower rate, or in proportion to their extended consumption, and a new tariff was sent to us carrying the price down from 3d. per 1,000 gallons to 2d. per 1,000 upon the extended consump- tion. I do not know what we pay, but we have not gone to the extreme limit of 2d. 9328. Supposing circumstances should occur to make it necessary for the corporation of Bradford to charge you 3d. instead of 2d., or 7.d. instead of 6d. per 1,000 gallons, the effect of which would be to in- crease your payment from 600l. to 700l. per year, would that have the effect of destroying your trade 2 —No, but we should cease to consume so much, and we should help ourselves in another way. 9329. Supposing that 100l. or 200l. additional expense annually was put upon your shoulders for purifying the water after you had received it clean by a simple and easy process, so that it should be dis- charged again in a comparatively clean state, would that be so serious an outlay as to imperil your trade 2 —No ; of course I am supposing that other people engaged in the same trade would have to do the same thing. 9330. Would such an additional annual exqense N n 3 286 Rºy ERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRAf)FORD. - Mr. S. Smith. 13 Nov. 1866. Mr. D. Swallow. 14 Nov. 1866. - frighten you?—No ; we should not be frightened by a trifle of that sort. 93.31. (Mr. Harrison.) You say that your neigh- bours use the water of the beck for engine purposes 2 —Yes. 9332. Lower down the town can they use the water of the beck for those purposes 2–Yes, all the way down. There are five large concerns immediately below ours, which have an advantage from the fact that our drain passes through their premises. After- wards the water is carried through into the goit, and still people draw from it. 9333. Take the manufacturers who are situated on the lower part of the Bradford beck, can they use the Bradford beck water for engine purposes now 2–Yes. Even our dirty water has its advantages, and I will tell you what those advantages are. It is not clean enough for condensing purposes, but for supplying boilers the water which goes from our works and from other works below is in such a state that it does not cause incrustation in the boilers. It is therefore safer for that use in boilers than pure water. 93.34. If used for engines, does it not cause them to prime very much -No. The chief thing for conden- sing purposes is that it shall be cold. I remember some years ago in a dry summer that the whole of the mills on the stream below our works were dependent upon the water which they pumped up after we had used it ; so that if we had stopped they would have stopped. There was no water coming down the natural stream at all, and all the mills were dependent upon the water that we raised from our wells. 93.35. What had become of the water in the stream 2–I do not know. It was in a particularly dry time. 9336. Now if you were to cut off the water company’s supply in a dry season, such as we had a year or two ago, there would be hardly any coming down the beck P-There would be none at all. 9337. (Professor Way.) Then I suppose you think that any scheme that proposed to divert the water from all the mills into a great sewer and take it down some distance would be productive of serious injury in taking the water away —Yes. The fact is that we have at present for our own concern a method under our consideration by which we think we can take all our water from our place into a drain, and never pass it into the watercourse at all. It is within reach of a drain that is already in existence. 9338. That would seriously interfere with the quantity of the water, would it not 2–Yes. 9339. (Mr. Harrison.) And it would also interfere with the water power below you ?–Yes. 93.40. (Professor Way.) Therefore, if it were practicable, the reasonable thing would be to return the water as pure as you could into the stream direct from each mill?—I have often thought that with a little arrangement if we could sort our water after we had used it, especially keeping to itself the water that is used for washing purposes, we might send down a considerable stream that would go far towards supplying the canal with water entirely without any smell, and almost without any colour. - 93.41. (Mr. Harrison.) You mean if you separated the dye water and let it go down the sewer –Yes. If the Commissioners had time to come to our premises for a short time before they left I should be very glad to explain to them how I think this could be done. They would then see how the water is used and what water is passed. In a concern like ours we use a large quantity of acids and metallic solutions in various forms, and after these have been exhausted the waste waters are all passed away, some of them carrying a great deal of very strong matter with them not offensive to the smell, but it would be injurious to vegetation. 9342. (Chairman.) And would perhaps prevent cattle drinking from the stream 2–Just so. 9343. Have you tried irrigation in any form and watched its effect?—No, I have not. --- 9344. What quantity of acid do you use in a year? —That is a difficult question to answer. 9345. Do you use a large quantity of acid —Yes, a great deal. 9346. And iron liquor —Yes; we make a great deal of solution of iron ourselves. 9347. (Mr. Harrison.) Is it difficult to give the quantities of acid, iron liquor, dyewoods, and different things that you use per annum ?–It would be per- fectly easy for me to do that in my counting-house. We can give you the quantity of the woods that are cut and used in the course of a year. The only con- cern that I know of that ever made any attempt to purify the water was a concern near Halifax where I was engaged when a boy. They ran their drains into a sort of reservoir or filtering dam beiow the works. It was upon a hill side and there was plenty of fall, and the water was in this way very much divested of its peculiar character, both as regards colour and purity. 9348. Mere mechanical filtration and rest did something to purify it 2–Yes. 9349. All the dye refuse which you send into the river and the colouring of the river ceases to be ob- servable at no very great distance below you, if it is not renewed again by other dye works?—Perhaps so, but I have never noticed that. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 10 o’clock. Bradford, Wednesday, 14th November 1866, PRESENT : ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THORNHILL HARRIson, Esq. | º - Professor John THOMAS WAY. Mr. DAVID SWALLow examined. 93.50. (Chairman.) Are you manager of the Bradford gasworks –Yes. 9351. Is it a company –Yes. 9352. Where are the works situated 2–In Mill Street adjoining the Bradford beck, and also in Thornton Road, in both cases close to the beck COurSe. 9353. How long have those works been established 2 —Since 1823 or 44 years ago. - 9354. What number of retorts have you in use now —At the present time there are about 430 or 440. 9355. What cubic volume of gas do you make in a year 2–370,000,000 cubic feet. 9356. What tonnage of coal do you use 2–40,000 tons per annum. 9357. What kind of coals are they 2–They are half Yorkshire, Cannel, and other coal; in fact the best coals we can get. 9358. What amount of coke do you get in that quantity of coal?—About 12 cwt. per ton. 9359. How much of that coke do you use on your own works Pi—About two-fifths. 9360. Is the other part of it distributed in the dis- trict 2–Yes; it is sent away, some of it a considerable distance. 9361. Do you use lime for purifying the gas — Yes. - - 1:4 v Elisiºi Missiºn :-M INUTES OF EVIDENCE, 287 9362. What amount of lime do you use per annum * —We use about 19 cwt. or one ton in a caustic state, or about 3 tons 8 cwt. in a hydrate form. 9363. Does it increase in weight by use or not *- Sometimes it does, but that depends upon the state of the condensation. 9364. What do you do with the spent lime –We have hitherto given it away to any of the farmers who would fetch it. 9365. If they do not fetch it, does it accumulate upon your premises —Yes, at certain seasons of the year : at the present time we have rather a considerable quantity. 9366. How many tons do you think —I think we have about 350 tons at present on the premises. 9367. Have you used oxyde of iron to purify the gas with ?—We did a few years ago, but we did not continue it. 9368. Was it too expensive 2–No, it was rather in our favour in a pecuniary point of view, but it did not answer so well. 9369. Did it not purify the gas effectually —It did not. 9370. Have you heard any complaints made by your neighbours as to the accumulation of spent lime upon your premises?—Not generally ; sometimes parties have complained a little. 9371. Do any of the inhabitants living about the works bring their children into your purifying house when they are suffering from croup or whooping cough 2–Yes, they do frequently come. 9372. Are they always allowed to enter 2–Yes. 9373. Do any of the medical men ever order the children to be taken to the purifying house 2–Yes; I know that one physician in Bradford has done so. 9374. Do you think it has a beneficial effect?—I really cannot speak to that, but I should say that good mountain air would have more effect. 9375. What number of men do you employ on your premises —About 250, including the pipe layers. 9376. What sort of health do those men enjoy 7– They have very good health, and particularly those wno are employed in the purifyers. 9377. Do you think that there is anything injurious in the manufacture of gas —I think not at all. 9378. How long have you been manager of the works –For 25 years. 9379. Have you ever suffered in health?—Not at all. 9380. Can you smell it now offensively —Yes. 9381. Sometimes it is offensive to you ?–Yes; I smelt it last night in consequence of an accident which occurred ; one of the valves was left open, and the result was that a lot of impure gas got into the mains. 9382. Is any refuse passed from your works into the river now 2–None whatever. 9383. Do you find a ready sale for all the products from your gas works –Yes, but sometimes the coke accumulates to a considerable extent. 9384. What do you get a gallon for the tar?— We do not sell it by the gallon, but by the ton, and we get 1/, a ton for it. 9385. Is that price higher or lower than it used to be 2-—Higher. We never had more than 12s. a ton for it till last year; it is sold by contract, and it goes down to Mr. Hewlay, near Leeds. 9386. What do you get for the ammoniacal liquor * —We receive a fixed sum per annum for all we make. 9387. And do the buyers clear it from the premises 2 ~—Yes. 9388. What is that fixed sum ?–It is 880/., and that will also include any increase that we may have for a number of years to come. 9389. Did you ever try to make mortar with your spent lime 2—Yes, and found that it would not answer as mortar; it crumbles away, and there does not ap- pear to be the consistency of lime about it. 9390. Have you tried it 2–Frequently. 9391. What then is it used for 2–For agricultural purposes. - 9392. And you are willing to give it away to any extent if the parties will come and cart iſ away ?— Yes; we do so. 9393. What do you get for the coke 2–It varies according to the quantity we can sell to one individual, from 5s. to 8s. a ton. 9394. What does the coal cost you ?–That also varies in price—from 8s. 9d for common coal, up to 10. 6d. ; and from 10s. 6d. for canal coal, up to 18s 4d. 9395. How frequently have you occasion to change the water in your gas vats where the gasometers stand 2 —I think we have not had more than four changes since the commencement of the works. 9396. And I suppose those changes have occurred when you have wished to make repairs 2–Yes. 9397. You could go on almost constantly with the same water by supplying that which evaporates ?— Yes, but we do not keep the same water in the tank; we pump fresh water in every day. We have a pipe laid into the retort house to slake the coke, or for any purpose that we might require it for ; if we emptied the tanks within a foot of the bottom, the effect might be bad; but for a few inches from the surface it would not be at all injurious to let it flow down the beck. 9398. (Professor Way.) Have you good reason for thinking that iron would not answer your purpose for purifying 2–Yes, I am aware that it is used largely, but I believe that they would not use it in London if it were not for the nuisance of the lime. It is not found to answer the purpose better. 93.99. You do not think it purifies the gas better? —No, nor so well. - 9400. Are you aware that it is being introduced throughout the country very largely 2–Yes; it freed London of a great nuisance in the refuse lime, and that was why it was adopted there. 9401. If it was so in London, would it not be so in Bradford *—To a certain extent it is so, but what is considered a nuisance to some parties is not considered a nuisance to others. Some people rather like the small of the gasworks. 9402. Supposing the collection of the lime refuse to become very great, and to be complained of, I suppose you would readily adopt the iron process 2–Yes. 9403. If you keep the water in the gasholders for any length of time, would the gas be liable to take up from that water injurious smells in addition to its own Smell?–In winter time there is a certain condensation that takes place in gasholders. In summer time when there is a great heat upon gasholders all this is changed; but it is chiefly the essential oil; it improves the quality of the gas, and I do not know of anything that is injurious. 9404. Is there any naphthaline 2–We never find much of that. 9405. Have you any particular object in replacing the water day by day ?–No, but we consider it to be a most injurious plan not to keep the tanks clear, and free from any smell; there is always a little smell where water is left in tanks without being changed. 9406. Is the rusting of the tanks themselves obviated to some extent by that change of water 2– We have not got cast iron tanks; they are made of bricks, lined with Roman cement. The gasholders themselves we keep tarred over to preserve them. 9407. Does the use of fresh water tend to remove the ammonia which the gas might contain –It will have a certain effect no doubt; if there is any ammonia it will seize it to a certain extent. 9408. And the use of fresh water would purify the gas rather than otherwise –Yes, it would. 9409. (Chairman.) What is your price per 1000 cubic feet for gas now 2–3s., subject to a discount of 20 per cent. to the highest consumer on a graduated scale. 9410. Do you remember what it was when the works were first established 2–12s. 6d., instead of as now, 3s. per 1,000 cubic feet. 9411. What is the capital account of the company —About 150,000l. BRADFORD. M.rºdswallow. 14 Nov. isgö. N n 4 288 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. D. Swallow. 9412. What per centage do they pay 2–10 per cent, but not upon that amount. 9413. Have you any spare land in the neighbour- hood of the works for extensions 2–Yes. 9414. Are you likely to extend the works —Yes. 9415. Is there more than one company supplying Bradford with gas —No. 9416. Have you land sufficient to enable you to keep up with the requirements that may arise —Yes, we have sufficient to erect works upon of about double the size of the present works. 9417. To what extent is your longest main carried out from the works P-About three miles. 9418. Do you go beyond the borough with your supply 2–No. 9419. What is the diameter of the largest main 2– 18 inches. 9420. What is the diameter of the smallest main f —Two inches. - 9421. Is that made of cast or wrought iron —Cast 11"On- 94.22. What are the pipes made of for house services? -—Of wrought iron in all cases. 9423. What length of lift will the wrought iron service pipe have 2–-It varies, according to the nature of the soil. 9424. What is the best kind of soil for the pipes 2 —We find there is nothing better than good earth or sand. 9425. What is the worst kind of soil 2–Where the coal strata set in. We had a line of pipes in a street above the parish church, and we had to take them up. I could cut through the metal just as if it were plumbago, it was so soft, but that was from the coal strata which came out there on the surface of the earth, and the sulphur arising therefrom. 94.26. A sort of chalybeate water 2–No, it was free sulphur that was given out in the strata of the earth. 9427. Do you use any means to protect the iron if you find the strata are so injurious –Yes; when we come to clear the ground we take out what may be considered injurious and put in earth. 9428. Do you prepare your pipes by putting on a coating of varnish –Yes, we do, the service pipes, but not the mains. 9429. For what length of time will cast iron mains last in the best part of the town —We have taken them up after they have been down 25 years, and they have been as good as the first day they were laid down; in certain situations they are very much more deteriorated. 9430. What joints do you use —Leaden joints. 9431. Have you ever tried turned and bored joints 2 —Yes. 9432. Do not they answer –I do not like them so well. 9433. Of what depth is the socket 2—About from 4 inches to 4%. 9434. Do you ever find them draw in consequence of the contraction which takes place or of the weight of the pipes on the hill sides?—Sometimes we find that a few joints are leaky. 9435. Have you ever found them drawn completely out 2–Never. 9436. Is there any strain by pressure upon the joints —No. 9437. What per centage do you allow for conden- sation in your mains?—I do not know ; that is rather a difficult thing to say. I have never been able to account for it. In some instances where pipes have become disarranged in consequence of sewerage works going on, the joints have been shaken, and water has got in, and we have not been able to discover the amount of the condensation. 9488. But there is a certain amount of condensation that always takes place —Yes, but not so much as is generally supposed, I think. 9439. Do you pump atmospheric air into the gas holders to any extent?–No. 9440. Is it customary with any managers of gas Works to force in a little atmosphéric air —I believe it is ; where they use oxyde of iron, they put 1 or 2 per cent. of atmospheric air in. 944. Have any explosions taken place at your works?–No. º Could you explode one of your gasometers? — CS. 9443. Would you not set it on fire —Yes, you can explode a gasometer only when it has been newly com- menced, and has a certain quantity of atmospheric air in ; not when it is full of gas; it could not be then exploded. 9444. You could not blow a full gasometer up, but you might set it on fire –Yes. º!". (Prºfessor Pay.) Is it not possible, if the Weights of the gasometer are not properly regulated that air should be mixed with the gas —No. 9446. I mean by making the gasholder too light? —No, it would not work if that was the case. 9447. In some cases do they not pump the gas out of the gas retorts —No : it is exhausted to take off the pressure, but we never allow less than a certain pressure at the entrance into the exhauster. 9448. But that is not always done, is it?—Not in all small works where exhausters are not used; but it is chiefly in the large ones. 9449. Is it possible to draw air through the luting of the doors?—Yes, very possible. 9450. (Chairman.) Do you use iron or earthenware retorts —Earthenware. 945l. How long have you done that?—For the last 20 years. 9452. What is the proportionate duration of an earthenware retort as compared with an iron one?— That depends entirely upon the usage it receives and the time. An iron refort might be burnt in one night by the carlessness of the men, but a clay retort £ould not ; they might get a clay retort to an intense heat, but it would be in good condition. - Y 9453. Do you use steam power for any purpose?— es. 9454. Haye you ever tried so to place a steam boiler that you could turn the waste heat from any flue, and sº get the steam up without an independent fire 2– No our works are not so arranged as to admit of that very easily. 94.55. Suppose you were engaged in works that required steam power, has it never occurred to you that the spent heat from firing the retorts could be passed through a system of boilers, and so give you * very large amount of horse-power without any cost? —Yes, we did it a few years ago, but we had altera- tions to make and we dispensed with it ; it can be done. 9456. Supposing that you had attached to your works a large pumping establishment for waterworks, could you not use the spare heat from your gas. making operations and so pump all the water 3–Yes, we could. 94.57. Is there not in your works a vast amount of heat which is wasted 2–Yes. 94.58. Which passes up the chimney uselessly 2– Yes; in the evening you may see it blazing out of the chimney. 9459. What is the diameter of the flue at the base? —I cannot speak to that. 9460. Is it 10 or 20 feet?—Not so much. 9461. What height is it?—About 40 yards. 9462. Is it cracked 2–Yes, it was cracked ; we have been hooping our chimneys this year; every chimney that we have is now hooped. The witness withdrew. RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 289 Mr. HENRY MITCHELL (Bradford) examined. 9463. (Chairman.) Are you a merchant in Brad- ford 2–Yes. 9464. Where are your works situated 2–In Leeds Road, 9465. What are they 3–I am a stuff merchant. 9466. What number of hands do you employ — About 150. 9467. Do you use steam power –Yes. 9468. What becomes of the ashes from your works? —They are carried away. I have not noticed what becomes of them, but we have very few. 9469. Do you use water at your works?—Yes. 9470. Where do you obtain it from ?–From the to Wn. 9471. From the corporation ?—Yes. 9472. Where does the waste water go 2–Into a drain ; it does not go directly into the beck, there is a culvert under the warehouse. 9473. At all events it goes I suppose the way of all the Bradford water 2–I believe so. 9474. What sort of accommodation have you on your premises for the workmen ; are there water- closets or privies?—Waterclosets. 9475. And they drain also I suppose into the sewers ?—Yes. 9476. You reside I understand at Esholt Hall 2– Yes. 9477. How far is that from Bradford * – Five miles. 9478. Is that situated on the banks of the river Aire?—It is very near the river; it is about 100 yards from it. 9479. What distance does that river flow through the estate to which the hall belongs —I believe for about five miles. - 9480. How long have you known the river?—All my life. I was born in that village. 9481. In what condition was the stream when you first knew it 2–It was very clear water. 9482. In what condition is it now 2–It is very filthy and very bad. 9483. What does the filth arise from ;-I think it arises chiefly from the Bradford Beck, also from several mills and factories on the river and partly from Shipley. 9484. That is from the works which are situated on the Bradford Beck, within the borough and without 2 —Yes. 9485. And also from works situated on other becks and streams, and upon the main river itself above —Yes. 9486. What is the color of the water as it flows past your premises —It is almost black sometimes, always very dark. 9487. What is its character in a very hot summer ? —I believe it is very offensive ; but we have not had much hot weather since I have been there. I have only been there seven months. 9488. What mills are there on the river ?—There is a woollen mill in the village of Esholt, also Buck Mill, about a mile and a half further up ; and there are two or three mills at Shipley, and at Saltaire; above that again there are some ; and there are several others in the neighbourhood of Bingley, and I think there are some in the neighbourhood of Keighley. 9489. Do you think it is the pollution which pro- ceeds from those mills that injures the river ?–Yes. It arises more or less from the mills, but chiefly from the Bradford beck. 9490. Whatever amount of pollution there is in the beck, I suppose you contribute a little towards it 2– We have no mill. 9491. But you said that you had some works that drain into the beck, did you not ?—We have a ware- house, but no manufactory. 9492. The sewage from your warehouse goes down into the beck, does it not *—I presume that nearly all the Bradford sewage goes in. 9493. Has it occurred to you what should be done to obviate this difficulty as to pollution ?–No ; it is not a subject that I have given much attention to. 9494. Is it possible, do you think, for the water of the river to be purified by dealing with Bradford alone —I think it might be greatly improved by dealing with Bradford alone. 9495. Do you think if Bradford were dealt with alone that you would see such a visible alteration in the condition of the river that you would have no cause of complaint 2–Yes, I think so. 9496, You stated that there were other works that pollute the river besides those which are situated on Bradford Beck?—Yes; but only to a very small extent. 9497. There is the Guiseley and the Yeadon Beck 2 —Yes ; Yeadon Beck is very bad ; it flows through pleasure grounds into the river. The Guiseley Beck is not so bad, as it has been considerably improved by means of soap ponds. 9498. Is not the question so large and wide that it requires something to be done beyond dealing with the Bradford Beck?–Yes, I think it is a national question, and that it requires general attention. 9499. (Mr. Harrison.) Are there not several towns, such as Keighley and Saltaire, rising up, and Bingley and Shipley, and do not they pollute the river to a considerable extent 2–Yes, more or less. 9500. Are not those places increasing in importance? —Yes, they are all increasing, especially Shipley. 9501. Does not that circumstance appear to point out the necessity for not confining any improvement to Bradford alone —Certainly. 9502. (Professor Way.) The question was, whether the district generally should be dealt with, or whether Bradford should be dealt with alone –I understood the question to be, if Bradford was dealt with alone should I have much complaint, whether it would not so visibly improve the state of the river that it would be considerably better. 9503. Still you believe that any measure should be general throughout the district —Certainly I do. The chief source of pollution now is no doubt from Brad- ford, and in a few years other places will contribute very largely to pollute the river also. 9504. if Bradford was made to take any steps to purify the river, you think that other towns should be put in the same category –Certainly. The witness withdrew. Mr. JoHN HolyIES (Bradford) examined. 9505. (Chairman.) You are gamekeeper, I believe, to Mr. Stansfield –Yes. 9506. At Esholt Hall 2–Yes. 9507. How long have you been there –For 28 years. 9508. In what condition was the river when you first knew it 2–It was very clear, as clear and as bright as possible. 9509. Were there any fish in it –It was fish of all kinds. 95.10. What extent of river frontage is there to the estate –It is close upon five miles from the beginning to the end of Mr. Stansfield's estate. 17159.-2, full of 9511. Does he own both sides of the river ?–Yes. 9512. Are there any mills belonging to him on that part of the property —Yes; there are two mills. 9513. What are they 2–They are cloth mills. 9514. Was there ever any salmon fishing on that river since you remember it?—No ; I have never heard of salmon being in it. 9515. Have the Salmon Fishery Commissioners visited the river lately?—Not that I know of. 9.516. What kind of fish did you find in the stream when you first knew it —There were trout, and dace, and perch, and chub, and roach, and gudgeons, and eels, and pikes, - O o BRADFORD. M.I.Mitchell. 14 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. Holmes ----- 290 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD. Mr. J. Holmes. 14 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. Riley. 9517. Are there any fish of any kind in it now – If I was to say that there was not one I should be wrong, but they are very odd ones; there is nothing but a few chub. - 9518. In what condition was the river last summer; was it a dry summer ?–Yes; it was very dry. 9519. Was the water low 2–It was very bad indeed. 9520. Is it the water that is so bad or the mud banks, or which are the worst 2–The water. It came down last summer, a year since this, and the few fish that there were it killed them all right down as far as the Stansfield estate went, eels and everything. 9521. Have the cattle the means of getting down to the river to drink —They can get to it. 9522. Do you ever see them drink the water now? —I have never seen them drink it for these two or three years. 9523. Used they to drink it 2–Yes; 20 years ago I have seen them drink it ; they used to drink it then. 9524. If the cattle were to go into the river now in summer, would the water discolor them 2–I cannot say; it would discolor them as far as the depth they went in, about their feet and hocks; they would come out colored. 95.25. Would they come out blue –Yes, and black, a little shade would not color them. 9526. Were there any wild fowl on the river when you first knew it?—Yes. 9527. Are there any on it now?—Yes, a good many. 9528. What other rivers and streams are there that are colored as well as the Aire —I do not know that there are any except a brook or two. 9529. The Yeadon beck, for instance 2–Yes; that is very bad ; that comes into the Aire ; it comes in close by the hall. 9536, What makes it bad —It is the manufacturing up in Yeadon—the gas works and mill—Guiseley is not so bad as it used to be. 9531. Do you know what has made it better than it was 2–Yes; filtering the water at the mills. 9532. Where do they filter it 2–Close by the mills, they run it out from one pond into another. 9533. You mean into pipes 2–Yes, and they can let it out and clean the pond out. 95.34. By that means the water is not so much polluted as it used to be 2–No. 95.35. They empty the ponds occasionally —Yes. I believe that trout can live in the Guiseley brook near the hall. 9536. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you remarked any difference in the level of the bed of the river since you have known it ; has it risen at all ?–No, I do not think it has. 9537. Is the land more subject to flooding than it used to be formerly 2—I do not know that it is ; not that I can say. I do not see much difference in the flooding of the land. The witness 9538. Do the floods come down as they used to do formerly?–Yes. - - - 9539. Is there as much game now as there was when you first knew the estate —No, not as when I first knew it. I got it up to a good pitch, but now it is thinner. 95.40. Is it thinner because you choose to keep it so, or what is the cause 2–A railway came, the Leeds and Bradford railway and the Otley line, and there were a good many navvies about, and much game could not live where those men were. 9541. Are there many rabbits on the estate?— Middling; we had more in Mr. Stansfield's time. I have killed as many as 900 and 1,000 in a season, but I shall not kill that number this season. 9542. What number of hares are killed on the estate in a season 2–I do not think we shall kill above 20 where the navvies have been. 9543. Of how many acres does the estate consist : —I really do not know exactly. 9544. Is the whole of the shooting retained, or is any of it let out 2–No, not in the Esholt estate ; it is all let to Mr. Mitchell. 9545. Have any of the farmers liberty to kill or shoot rabbits?—No, not if we know it. 9546. (Professor Way.) You say that all the fish are destroyed, even the eels —Yes, I believe so. 9547. It takes a good deal of filth to destroy them? —I thought it did. 9548. They are very hardy fish –Yes; they will live nearly anywhere. 9549. But not in this stream —They could not live in it last summer; they might live in it now. 9550. Did you ever fall into the river at any time * —I have been in it. I have bathed in it before now. 9551. But not since it was so filthy —No. 9552. Did you ever taste the water within the last year or two 2–I once slipped into the river off the stepping-stones, and I got some of the water into my mouth, but I spluttered it out again. 9553. Did you observe whether it was acid or not ? —No. I should not like to taste it—to swallow it. 95.54. Do gudgeons live in clear water or dirty water –They like clear, pure water. 9555. They will not live in dirty water —No. When I first came here I used to supply Mr. Stans- field with fish out of the river. For eight or ten years he never sent to Leeds for any fish. He had eels and trout and fresh fish regularly every day. 9556. (Chairman.) Were there any otters upon the estate?—There have been one or two since I came. 9557. Are there any now 2–No. 9558. Are there any in the upper parts of the valley, where the water is purer —Yes, up above Bingley I believe there are. 9559. What do they principally feed on, trout or salmon?—They will feed upon any kind of fish that they can catch. They will feed upon scaly fish; they will take the fish out on to a large stone and leave the scales. withdrew. Mr. John RILEY (Bradford) examined, 9560. (Chairman.) You are gardener at Esholt Hall 2–Yes. 9561. How many years have you been there – About six years. 9562. How near are the gardens to the side of the river ?—The kitchen garden is about 130 yards from the river side, and the pleasure grounds abut up to the river side. 9563. Do some of the ornamental walks run parallel with the river ?–Yes. 9564. Is there a footpath or road which is parallel to the river and runs through the estate –There is ſlot. 9565. A public road, I mean –There used to be one, but that is now done away with, and it runs about a quarter of a mile away now, but there are walks all over the estate—pleasure walks—and there is one that runs by the river side to the church at Esholt. 9566. Is it a public walk —No, a private one ; it is about half a mile or three quarters in length. 9567. What extent of garden ground have you under your charge –Altogether there are about eight acres, or between seven and eight; that is, the pleasure ground and kitchen gardens, 9568. What state was the river in when you first knew it *—It was rather in a dirty state, but it was not so offensive then as it was in 1864 and 1865. In 1861, 1862, and 1863 it was slightly offensive at times during the summer time; but the rainfalls in the summer time came pretty regularly, and the filthy matter got away better. 9569. Have you ever seen any dead carcases float- ing on the water in the summer time 2–Yes, re- peatedly, especially in 1864 and 1865. RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 291 9570. What becomes of them, or do you remove 9592. Have you kept a rain gauge for any length of BRADFORD, them 2–We cannot remove them ; they pass on. 9571. Have you large vineries on the premises – Yes, very large. 9572. Is not carrion good for the roots of vines — I do not believe so very much in that. I think that some good manure, horse droppings or crushed bones are much better. The vines grow too rapidly with carrion at the first, and then the soil becomes too heavy and the roots rot off. What you want is to have a porous soil, very good and moderately rich. 9573. You would not use dead dogs for vine culti- vation ?—Certainly not. 9574. How near does any part of the hall stand to the river ?—The hall is about 60 yards from the river or a little over that—between 60 and 70. 9575. Have you known any inconvenience to be experienced there by foul smells from the river ?–I have known this; in 1864 and 1865, at intervals, the river was in such a filthy state that they could not have the windows open. Mrs. Fairbairn could not bear her bedroom window open for several days. 9576. If the stench was so bad as to reach to the hall, what effect would it have upon persons walking upon the margin of the river ?–They could not do it with any comfort; they must have their pocket hand- kerchiefs to their mouths or their fingers on their nostrils. 9577. As to comfort and enjoyment, the pleasure grounds are seriously injured 2–Yes, they are very seriously injured indeed. - 9578. From what becks does the greatest amount of pollution come?—I should say the Bradford beck. 9579. From any other ?—There is the Yeadon beck which stands next. It is a very dirty stream now, as the whole of the sewage from Yeadon and from some mills and dye works and gas works come in, and ali the mills dye nearly, and therefore dyeing matters are cast into the beck. It comes down through the Esholt Hall grounds and runs into the river near the hall. 9580. Did you ever try any of the water for irrigat- ing the plants –We have the Guiseley beck water, but that runs through a filtering house and then into a large pond or reservoir, from which sometimes we take water for watering in the gardens. 9581. Does that answer –It does pretty well; I have not seen any injurious effects from it. I cannot say that any of these streams have been so bad lately. The chief water that we get comes from a spring called the Nunwood Spring, that water is brought by iron pipes. 9582. Do you use that for irrigation ?–Not for irrigation, but for general purposes. 9583. Do you use it for the grape houses?—No, not for the grape houses; we use the water that comes down from Guiseley Beck for them. 9584. Is the dwelling-house supplied with water 2 —Yes, it is well supplied with water. 9585. Where does it come from ?–It comes from a field called Hopwood field, about 300 yards away from the Hall ; it is the best water, and is brought down to Esholt Hall in leaden pipes. 9586. Is it delivered into cisterns on the top of the house 2–No, that is delivered to all the places in the lower apartments, such as the kitchen, the scullery, the servants’ hall, and the pantry. - 9587. How are the waterclosets in the upper part of the house supplied, and the bedrooms ?–Water from a spring called Nunwood spring, supplies the waterclosets. - 9588. What become of the rain water 2–That I think passes away. 9589. You do not use it in the gardens 2–No. 9590. Are you ever short of water for the gardens : —Never; we have always plenty. - 9591. Sometimes more than you want perhaps ?— Yes; for instance, this year we have had more than we wanted. I can tell you what the rainfall has been. Up to the end of October with us it has been 33 inches and 33-100ths from the 1st January. time?—Yes; and I have got the rainfalls put down on this paper which I will hand in (handing in the same, which will be found printed at the foot of the evidence of the witness). 9593. (Professor Way.) What is the rainfall on the average in this district 2–I think it is something like 28 inches. 9594. (Chairman.) Can you recollect which was the dryest year 2–Since I have been at Esholt Hall the dryest year was 1864. 9595. How much was the rainfall then 2–I think it was 23 inches. - 9596. Which was the wettest year that you can recollect?—This has been the wettest year. 95.97. Has it occurred to you that anything should be done to put the river in a better state —I have thought of that many times, and the only thing that I can see is for some gigantic scheme to be carried out, that is, to make some large ponds or settling places to catch all those dirty matters that come down from Bradford Beck. 9598. And treat it in the same way as the Guiseley water has been treated P-Yes, to have a sufficient settling pond made, and when it gets full run it off, and let it be cleaned out when it is dry. That seems to me the most likely thing that can be done. - 95.99. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you know where that part of the river is (handing a photograph to the witness) –Yes. 9600. Have you known it for many years 2–Yes, for six years. - 9601. Are the stones there that you see in the photograph as they were when you first knew them 2– Yes, and they have been there for centuries. 9602. Is the river at all filled up about the stones? —Not much 2–There are at times floods which wash out the bed of the river and carry it away down to the sea. 9603. But they do not remove the stones?–Yes; at times a flood washed them away, but then we carry them back again to their places. - 9604. Is there much of a village at Esholt?—There is only a very small village. 9605. How many inhabitants are there in it 2– I really do not know, but I think perhaps about 400. 9606. Where do they get their water from ?— There are several springs which run down the village. 9607. Are they well supplied with water –Yes. 9608. (Professor Way.) You say that you think the best method of dealing with the beck would be to have settling ponds for the black mud —Yes. - 9609. Would it not be better not to have any black mud in the beck at all 2–That would be the best thing, if it could be done. 9610. The chairman asked you about using the water of the beck for watering the plants. I suppose that water might be very offensive to the smell and very injurious to health, and yet not injurious to vegetation ?–Quite so. 96.11. So that the fact that it does not injure the plants does not prove that it is not in a very objec- tionable state –No. 96.12. (Chairman.) Is there a farmyard on the premises at Esholt Hall 2–Yes. - 96.13. What becomes of the drainings from the farmyard —They are gathered into a tank, and then they are pumped out and taken either on to the grass land, or else thrown on to manure heaps. 96.14. Where does the drainage from the water- closets go?—Into the river. 96.15. If the river is to be purified, you will have to keep the contents of the waterclosets out of it 2–1 suppose that would be so. º 96.16. Do you think that if the watercloset refuse were put into a tank like the manure from the farm yard, you could do any good with it in your garden —Yes, there is no doubt of it. - - 5 ºn 5 ºf The witness withdrew. Mr. J. Riley. 14 Nov. 1866. O o 2 292 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD. Mr. J. Riley. 14 Nov. 1866. T. Constable, Esq. RAIN FALL at Esholt HALL, near BRAD For D. I861. 1862. January - - 1 - 92 1 : 68 February - - 4 - 29 () 65 March - - 4 - 18 4 30 April - - - 1:23 1-70 May - - - 0° 59 4 1() June - - - 1:37 2 - 20 July - - - 3 35 2: 34 August - - 1 - 16 2 : 29 September - - 3 - 22 2 : 19 October - - 1:07 5 24 November - – 3:49 ()- 82 December - - 2' 09 2 : 14 27-96 29' 65 1863. 1864. January - - 6 - 23 1 - 34 February - - () 69 1 : 68 March - - 1:03 2.78 April - - - () - 80 1.77 May - - - 1: 17 2. 21 June - - – 3: 13 | 41 July - - - 1 - 28 ()' 65 August - - 4 - 32 (): 86 September - - 4:00 2 : 00 October - - 4' 53 3' 60 November - - 2: 34 3'43 December - - 2' 18 2 : 13 3] '70 23: 86 1865. 1866. January - - 2: 33 3-73 February - - 1 - 98 4 '38 March - - 1 - 08 2 : 52 April - -- - 1 - 04 1 : 56 May - - - 2:07 0.87 June - - - 0-77 3 - 59 July - - - 1 - 98 5: 10 August - - 4° 33 4:23, September - - () 13 5' 41 October - - 6:17 1 - 99 November - - 3:25 December - - 1: 78 __ 26'91 33' 38 Total of Rainfall for the Years– Inches. 1861 - - - 27-96 1862 - - - 29' 65 1863 - - - 31 - 70 1864 - - - 23-86 1865 - - - 26 - 91 1866, up to the end of October 33' 38 Every inch of rainfall on the land is equivalent to 100 tons of water per acre.-Mr. Denton, G. Chronicle, March 28. THOMAS CoNSTABLE, Esq. (Otley), examined. 96.17. (Chairman.) You are a solicitor –Yes. 96.18. Where do you reside —At Otley. 96.19. What length of time have you resided there? —I have been professional adviser and personal friend of Mr. Stansfield, of Esholt Hall, for upwards of 30 years. I have frequently visited Esholt Hall, both as a friend and professionally. 9620. Do you remember the river Aire well during that period of 30 years 2–Yes. 9621. In what condition was it when you first knew it *—I used to hear no complaints about it, and I pre- sume it was pure in those days, 9622. In what condition is the river now 2–It is filthy; it might be worse, but it is very bad. 9623. Is it in any way injurious, in your judgment, to the estate of your client 2–My client's estate con- sists of 2,000 acres, and the river flows through it for about five miles. Esholt Hall is a remarkably pic- turesque and beautiful seat, and the value of the whole is most materially deteriorated by the state of the Water. 9624. Have you any idea what would be the saleable value of that estate —Of course it is plain that a great per centage would be deducted if anybody wished to buy it under present circumstances, and a great num- ber of persons would refuse to live there at all. I may mention that Mr. Stansfield himself, from the impurity of the water as one cause, for I admit that it was not the only one, and from increase of population, and in- crease of manufacturers, has been obliged to leave this ancestral home of his, and to take up his quarters in the south of England. He was succeeded by Mr. Fairbairn, the present mayor of Leeds, who inhabited the house for a couple of years, and from my conver- sations with him I have reason to believe that he left the house almost exclusively on account of the im- pure state of the water. 9625. Is it fair to ask you what rental Mr. Fairbairn paid –It was not a very high rental. I suppose there can be no objection to my mentioning it; he paid 200l. a year for the house. 9626. Had he the use of the gardens —Yes, and the pleasure grounds. 9627. And the privilege of shooting 2—Yes; but the shooting is not very valuable. 9628. That would be considered, I suppose, a very low rental for the place —Unquestionably; and if it had not been for the state of the water, the house, considering that it was well furnished, would have let for a great deal more. Mr. Fairbairn has also a large establishment in Leeds, and requires to be a convenient distance from Leeds. Mr. Mitchell, the present tenant, is a merchant here, and it is convenient for him to be at that distance from Bradford, the distance being about five miles. 9629. In point of time what distance is it from Leeds –It is about a quarter of an hour's walk to the station, and about five miles either way by railway. 9630. Are there any manufactories near to the boundaries of the estate 2–Yes, there are ; there are two upon the estate ; but Mr. Mitchell and I have walked from Bradford to Esholt Hall, and have seen the condition of the beck, and we have not the slightest doubt that Bradford beck is the main offender, which contributes the most to the extremely filthy state of the water. 9631. Since you first knew Yorkshire, within the last 30 years, both population and trade have very largely increased ?–Yes. 9632. With that general increase of trade and population, there has been a corresponding increase in this particular district –No doubt. 9638. Has not trade increased even in a larger ratio than population ?—I think there can be no doubt of that, from the evidence you heard yesterday. 9634. Do you know what the value of land is for manufacturing purposes; it was stated to be about 5s. and 7s.6d. a square yard; what is it per acre 2–5d. a square yard is 100l. an acre. 9635. 1s. a square yard would be about 240/. an acre –Yes. 9636. What is that land worth per acre in its present state for agricultural purposes, or for resi- dential purposes?—Mr. Stansfield's estate of course is all valuable ; about the river side there is land for grazing purposes, but now of course it is a good deal deteriorated by the state of the water ; but if Mr. Stansfield chose to subdivide his estate and sell it in lots, the whole of the lots adjoining the river would be most materially depreciated in value by the state of the Water. 9637. You mean for residential purposes 2–Yes; but I have come here chiefly to show that a fine estate is being destroyed by the state of the water, and that the law at present leaves Mr. Stansfield, as the owner of that estate, utterly helpless in the matter. It is of course known to everybody that 20 years user enables pollutions of this sort to be continued, and this is a curious thing. I have heard from the gamekeeper and others that 20 years ago, when Bradford was certainly RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 293 a large place, the water was clear, and therefore the pollutions of Bradford have been coming into the river since 20 years ago, which shows what a length of time it takes to get a river thoroughly polluted. I believe that that is the experience of everybody with regard to the river Thames. On the river Thames, with a million of population on its banks, it was a very long time before the smell was found peculiarly offensive, and so it is with the river Aire; the pollution has been going on for 20 or 30 years; but it is now very offensive. We cannot turn round upon the Bradford people and say, within the last 20 years you have destroyed our water, for it has been growing during the whole of the time. It is, I consider, a disorder which requires to be dealt with in some other way than that which the law now provides. 9638. You think it advisable, if it can be proved to be practicable, that means should be adopted to remedy the existing pollution, and to check the in- crease of pollution which is likely to take place – Unquestionably, for if pollutions go on in the same degree as they have heretofore done, the river, as it appears to me, in 20 years time will become perfectly pestilential. 9639. You are speaking as a solicitor, understanding the law, and you say that at the present time it is in- sufficient to prevent these pollutions?—I consider that the law is utterly inoperative to meet a case of this Sort. 9640. Therefore you think that the legislature ought to have its attention directed to this perplexing state of the law and amend it, if possible 2–Exactly. I may mention, with regard to two becks that you have heard of the Guiseley and Yeadon becks, which rise in the villages of those names, about a mile and a half higher up than Esholt Hall, and which becks both flow through the pleasure grounds and form exceed- ingly beautiful features to it, that Mr. Stansfield, as a neighbour, is a kindly-disposed man, and he has probably allowed more pollutions to have gone on than he might have done; the law perhaps might have helped him; but out of regard to struggling neigh- bours and honest enterprising manufacturers, who club together and knock up mills, he has been more lenient and considerate than he might have been ; and although the Guiseley water is not in a very bad state in consequence of the soak ponds, yet it is rather worse than it might have been in consequence of Mr. Stansfield's lenient disposition, for I may say that to put the law in force under such circumstances requires an effort and rather a harsh disposition. It is felt to be hard upon a man to be obliged to be a sort of executioner of his poor neighbours in enforcing his own rights. The law might be improved in that re- spect. With regard to the state of the river, that is a growing evil, and has been growing so long in the dark that Mr. Stansfield could not protect himself. But in regard to those becks, he might have prevented contamination to a certain extent, but having a dis- position to oblige, and to assist the industry of his neighbours, I own that he did not exercise his rights to the extent that he might have done, and he suffers accordingly. At the same time it is rather hard that a man should suffer for leniency of disposition, and in all respects I think the law relating to these matters might be improved. 9641. Do you know of any other estates in the county of York, or in the valleys of the Aire and Calder, which are similarly affected to those of Mr. Stansfield —Of course it must be obvious to anyone who travels by railway from Bradford to Leeds that the river Aire is so affected ; but Mr. Stansfield, I believe, is the largest proprietor on the river banks between Leeds and Bradford. - 9642. Has any notice of action been given for the purpose of trying the question as to preventing pollu- tions of the river ?—We have brought actions against the people at Guiseley, which was the occasion of their making those soak ponds, and in reference to the people of Bradford our patience was at last exhausted. We have written to the town clerk, and we gave him notice that we required the corporation to do what their Act says they ought to do ; if you will allow me I will refer you to their Improvement Act, which tells them what they ought to do, and what we consi- der they have neglected to do ; it is the Bradford Improvement Act of 1850, and the clauses to which I would refer you are 31 and 32; the first clause gives them power to cleanse the streams, and it says, “It is enacted that it shall be lawful for the corpora- “tion, as they may think fit, to cleanse the Bradford “brook or any other brook,” &c. (reading the clause). Further powers are also given by the 32d clause. As yoti will hear from the officers of the corporation, they have not stirred a single step in that direction so as to mitigate the evil which their great town occasions. Moreover, I have also intimated to the town clerk, as may be seen by the reports in the newspapers, that injunctions have been granted by the Court of Chan- cery in cases as at Blackburn, where the sewage of towns has been brought by the authorities under the powers granted for improving their towns to a concen- trated point, and so let fall into a stream or river. I have informed the town clerk also that when this great system of sewerage, to which Mr. Gott alluded, is thoroughly completed, and the whole of Bradford sewage is brought to a head and flushed into the beck and so into the river Aire, then will be the time when Mr. Stansfield will most likely feel it to be his most unpleasant duty to apply to the Court of Chancery for an injunction; that is the state of things at the present time. It appears to me that what Parliament has done for the drainage of districts is adding to the evil as to rivers. I find that the local boards are the great sinners with regard to concentrating the drainage upon those points where it may fall into the nearest running stream, and this is the case with Brad- ford. All these public bodies seem to think that if they can get rid of the nuisance it is no business of theirs to consider what is to become of it, and it appears to me that it is a duty which Parliament should impose upon all these local boards, to whom the preservation of the public health is committed, to look beyond their own districts and not to send their sewage beyond them, without making a provision for its purification, as far as they can, by soak ponds or otherwise; and the suggestion which I think I ought to make as a legal one is, that inasmuch as for the purpose of purification of sewage, soak ponds and appliances of that sort are wanted in various places, and frequently in small places, it is only due to the community at large that Parliament should appoint official valuers to value for every body, and to estimate what is to be paid for those easements of land that may be required, rather than put public bodies to the expense of proceeding under the Lands Clauses Act, the machinery of which is found to be so expensive and also so dilatory I think that if the public are obliged to submit to these requirements there should be public valuers appointed for the purpose of doing justice between the parties. 9643. I presume you would not like to hand over local boards or corporations to the tender mercies of arbitrators, umpire, and witnesses?—If there were only a few large cesspools that were wanted, it would be very well to leave it to the present state of the law; but as there are a great many of these easements required, I think there should be an improvement in the law. Whatever parliamentary regulations may be made in virtue of recommendations from the Com- missioners, I think the penalties should be all enfor- cible under the summary jurisdiction of magistrates, instead of being left, as now, recoverable by actions at law. 9644. 1s the estate we have been speaking of at all affected by the smoke of the district 2–Yes; but there is no special complaint to make on that ground. 9645. Are there any minerals underneath the sur- face —Yes; there is some very valuable slate under a portion of it. 9646. Not coals or iron stone?—There is iron clay on a certain part of the property, on the other side of the river, BRADFORD, T. Constable, sq. 14 Nov. 1866. () o 3 294 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 9647. Is there any fire brick clay –Yes. 9648. But no coals?—No ; at least they are so ex- ceedingly thin that they are not worked. 9649. The estate is not likely to come into the market as a mineral estate 2–No; its destination would more likely be for villas, or a large portion of it. - - 9650. (Mr. Harrison.) Is Mr. Stansfield's property on both sides of the river ?–Yes. 9651. For the whole length of five miles —I think there are some intervals, but the gamekeeper said it was for the most of the way. 9652. Does Mr. Stansfield claim the bed of the river ?—That is considered to be his by the general law; it is universally claimed by the adjoining pro- prietor, unless it is a navigable river. 9653. Is there much fall in the river ?—Yes, a good deal. 9654. Is any use made of that for mill power — Yes, and there might be more use made of it. There is a mill-dam in front of the hall, which adds con- siderably to the beauty of the place, but there is no mill there, as that would detract from the residential enjoyment. 9655. Is there no mill or manufactory of any kind upon Mr. Stansfield's property P-Yes; he has two mills of his own; one is at Esholt village, and the other is Buck mill; they are both used for cloth making, and in a small way for dyeing. 9656. To a slight extent Mr. Stansfield offends against the river as well as Bradford?—Yes, the contents of his own waterclosets go into the river. 9657. I presume you would think it right, if any measure were to be carried out, that it should affect Mr. Stansfield as well as anybody else —Yes. 9658, (Professor Way.) I believe there was once an impression in courts of law, that if you contributed to a nuisance you could not complain of it?—That may be so ; that is to say, if you cause a nuisance, which is anything like that of which you complain, it might be unreasonable to complain ; but to say that because you empty one watercloset into the river, you should submit to the whole of the nuisance arising from Bradford, I think would be carrying the principle a little too far. 9659. Did not that dogma rule in the courts of law, that you were not justified in complaining of a nuisance if you went to the place where it was -—Yes, and that is so ; for example, if a brick-kiln is erected, and you choose to erect a villa adjoining to it, you cannot complain of the smoke from the brick-kiln. Again, if there is an existing tan-yard, and you choose to build a villa adjoining to it, you cannot complain of the smell of the tan-yard. 9660. With regard to the user of 20 years, are you sure that that gives a right –Yes; that is to say, it gives a right so far as to prevent your bringing an action, but it does not give a right to continue a nui- sance which is injurious to health. A party may be indicted for a nuisance, as the Bradford Canal Company was indicted, but Mr. Stansfield, as an individual, loses his right to a civil action by there being an ad- verse user for 20 years. 9661. Do you think that the state of the beck is more the result of house drainage or of manufacturing pollution ?—The discoloration of the water I presume arises more particularly from dyeworks, from the great deepness of the blue color I imagine that indigo and other dyeing materials contribute very much to it; but it is perfectly clear that excrementitious matter and ashes are largely there, which I think the cor- poration of Bradford and the authorities might very easily utilize. Supposing that all solid and excremen- titious matters were made available and useful by means of scavengers, and that they were removed in carts, as in Paris and other places, the water then would be comparatively without smell. One objection that my learned friend, Mr. McGowen, the town clerk, made yesterday was, that if these large soak ponds were constructed, persons in the neighbourhood might bring an indictment alleging the pond to be a nuisance, but there would not be much smell from water not containing solid impurities, and merely discolored by dyeworks. - - 9662. What is the best means, to keep the beck clear from the first, or, fouling it, to take it into settling ponds 2—You cannot possibly keep the water quite clean, and therefore you might have settling ponds. Sending all the sludge into settling ponds is quite out of the question : you can only let discolored liquid go into the settling ponds; there will still be matter which will settle. - 9663. If it were possible to purify the water before it comes into Mr. Stansfield's estate, it would not be any great benefit to the town of Bradford itself –It is a principle to be applied to every town. I should say that Mr. Stansfield suffers, and the owners of the river Aire suffer, from the impurities of Bingley, and Shipley, and Keighley to some extent. As I have said before, as it took 20 years and upwards to make the pollutions from Bradford sensibly felt, it may take 20 years before Keighley, Bingley, and Shipley cause a similar amount of pollution. It must take a great number of years before pollution rises to be offensive in so large a stream as the river Thames. The corporation of Bradford have mever made any propositions to mitigate the evil. I have no autho- rity from Mr. Stansfield for saying so, but if the corporation were to say to him, “We want a piece of “ ground of yours which will be suitable for one of “ these ponds,” perhaps Mr. Stansfield might be willing to meet them reasonably on the subject, but the corporation have done nothing, and the truth is that they want driving, as everybody does to do their duty in the matter. 9664. (Mr. Harrison.) If the corporation wanted land for irrigation purposes, would Mr. Stansfield be willing to give it them 2–I think it is quite possible. 9665. Mr. Ferrand stated at Leeds that the river opposite to his property was much injured by the re- fuse from Keighley raising the bed of the river in times of flood, but some of the witnesses examined here have stated that that was not the case opposite to Esholt Hall 2–1 am not aware that the banks have been raised by it there to any great extent. 9666. There is no complaint here similar to that of Mr. Ferrand's, at Leeds 2—I have not heard of it. Mr. Ferrand’s complaints bear the same proportion to ours, that Keighley and Bingley in point of size bear to Bradford. 9667. I take it that Keighley, Bingley, Shipley, and Saltaire all add to the pollutions cf which you com- plain as well as Bradford –Yes; Mr. Mitchell and I walked from Esholt Hall to Bradford, and looked at the river above the confluence of the Bradford beck, and we found that the pollution above the confluence point was comparatively trifling. 9668. Is it fair to charge Bradford with all the condensed pollutions that pass Esholt Hall; are not Shipley, Keighley, Bingley, Silsden, Steeton, Kild- wick, Coningley, Skipton, and many other places con- tributors to the general nuisance –I have just mentioned that Mr. Mitchell, the present tenant of Esholt Hall, and I took particular pains to ascertain the principal causes of the pollution, to see what pro- portion came from Bradford beck and what came down the river higher up than the confluence of the Bradford beck, and we found that the proportion which came from Bradford beck was overwhelming, and that positively at the other side of Shipley the water was comparatively, although not perfectly pure. I mean just above the confluence, at the other side of the bridge. - - 9669. How many times, have you made this exami- nation ?–Personally, I only went once. 9670. The places which you have named are manu- facturing districts, and they contribute of course their amount of pollution ?–Of course they do. 9671. With regard to the effect upon the property you have spoken of, I believe Mr. Stansfield is living, but was he not so badly affected by rheumatism that he RIVERS COMMISSION:-MHNU lºs OF EVIDENCE. 29). was compelled to go to the south of England?—I should say that during the last 20 years Mr. Stansfield has been suffering annoyance from the state of the river water; it was certainly not rheumatism by itself which induced him to leave Esholt; I admit the truth and the whole truth, which is, that in addition to suffering from the nuisance of the water, he was affected by a new railway being made. 9672. The Esholt estate I believe is at an angle, formed by the confluence of the Bradford beck and the Yeadon beck 2–No ; there is no confluence at all. 9673. Does not the Yeadon beck run down one side of the estate 2–This and the Guiseley beck run through the estate, from the north, into the river near Esholt. 9674. Does not the Yeadon beck run through the estate and join the Bradford beck at the corner —No. 9675. Where does the Yeadon beck go to ?—It falls into the river near Esholt Hall. 9676. What river ?—The Aire. 9677. Into which the Bradford beck and other streams go 2–Yes; the Bradford beck flows into the river Aire, three miles from Esholt Hall. 9678. Is it not the fact that on that Yeadon beck there are mills and dyeworks, but there are no gas works?–Unquestionably. We do not say that the Guiseley beck and the Yeadon beck do not add their quotas, and we say that Mr. Stansfield's own water- closets also do so. - 9679. Is not he proprietor of the dyeworks?— Mr. Stansfield has two mills on the Yeadon beck. 9680. Are there not some corn mills which belong to Mr. Stansfield –Mr. Stansfield has two corn mills upon the Yeadon beck, and I saw the day before yesterday a miller, who said that he had a sick person lying in his house, whose illness was mainly attri- butable to the effluvia arising from that beck. 9681. Do you mean the Yeadon beck 2–Yes. 9682. That beck passes through the estate 2–Yes, through a portion of it. We do not say that the Bradford people are the only offenders. 9683. In your communications with the town clerk and the corporation, you have been treated with the civility that you might expect 2–Yes, nothing could be more courteous. The witness withdrew. Mr. JoHN RUST JEFFERY (Bradford) examined. 9684. (Chairman.) You are a solicitor —Yes. 9685. You are a member of a firm in Bradford – Yes, Messrs. Taylor, Jeffery, and Littler. Before giving what little evidence I have to give I should like just to say that although my firm have acted in the matter of the prosecution of the canal company, yet personally I have not had the conduct of the pro- ceedings, and therefore I am not so intimate with the details as I should wish to be, but I can give you a general outline of what has taken place, and I can procure or hand in documents which probably will be sufficient to give you an insight into the case. 9686. We are informed that an indictment was pre- ferred at the Leeds assizes on the 10th of August 1864 against the proprietors of the canal and their lessees —Yes. 9687. Was there or not a true bill found 2–Yes, a true bill was found by the grand jury. 96.88. What then became of the trial 2–It was removed by certiorari to the Court of Queen’s “Bench, and it was sent down again for trial at the assizes on the civil side, that was in the spring of 1865. 9689. Was evidence gone into to any extent 2–No, but a verdict was taken by consent, subject to a special case for the opinion of the court. 9690. Was the special case argued?—Yes, it was on the 10th of June 1865, and the judges were unanimous in giving their decision in favour of the CI’OWin. 9691. What subsequent proceedings were then taken —Since then an information has been filed at the suit of the attorney-general in chancery, praying for an injunction “That the defendants may be re- “ strained by the order and injunction of this honorable “ court from diverting into the said canal or allowing to “ pass into the same, or collecting or keeping or con- “tinuing therein, any filth, sewage, or polluted matter or “ water, so as to be a nuisance to the inhabitants of the “ streets or any of the streets of the town of Bradford, “ or of the said buildings and suburban residences, or “ any of them, or to the persons passing along the said “ public streets and highways or any of them.” 9692. Can you put in any papers connected with the case ?–I can put in this information. I have written to London for affidavits and a complete set of the papers, but I have not yet received them. I will put them in subsequently. I will read to the Commission- pers,one passage in Mr. Leather's affidavit which was filed in support of the information. The deponent says “ The Bradford beck receives nearly all the sewage “ of Bradford, most of which flows into it above the “ point at which the canal supply is taken ; the water “ there is rather to be called sewage than water; it is “ in a most foul and offensive state, and wholly unfit “ for supplying the canal, as the water in the canal “ necessarily remains for a length of time nearly “ stagnant, and becomes putrescent if there is much “foul water in it. The upper part of the Bradford “ canal is at present in as foul a state as it is possible “ to conceive.” 9693. That is an extract from Mr. affidavit 2–Yes. 9694. Do you consider that that is a true statement? —Certainly. 9695. Did the judge consider it so?—Yes; this was used on the application being made for an injunc tion. The information was filed on the 10th of June 1865, and the motion for the injunction was post- poned, but a certain order was made, providing for the flushing of the canal once a fortnight, with a view to mitigating the evil. Finally, the motion again came on on the 16th of March last, and an injunction was then granted, a copy of which I have, and I will put it in. The injunction was not to take effect until the 8th of the present month, in order to enable the canal company to make certain arrangements for doing away with the nuisance, but on the 8th of this month the proprietors of the canal applied for an extension of the time in order to enable them to make some arrange- ment with the Leeds and Liverpool Canal Company, and I believe they expect to dispose of the canal, which is then to be supplied with water, and that will do away with the nuisance. The application is post- poned until to-morrow ; it will come on again before the vice-chancellor to-morrow. Affidavits have been filed, and it is not impossible that if the commission should be sitting on Friday next, we might hear that the canal had been shut up. I may observe that the indictment was prosecuted at the instance of a number of gentlemen in the town. I do not know whether the corporation had power or not to prevent, but at all events no such power was put in force, and therefore it was determined by those gentlemen to prosecute those proceedings, and they did so in a public spirited manner. 9696. Had you any precedent for the step or any leading cases to guide you in instituting the proceed- ings against the canal company?—I do not think that we had ; it is rather looked upon as a precedent. The Bridgewater Canal Company watched it with great interest, or rather so did some persons intending to prosecute the Bridgewater Canal Company, and in- tending to use it as a precedent.” 9697. Instead of your following any precedent, you appear to have established one –I think so. I am not aware of any particular precedent that was fol. lowed, but the proceedings have been most successful. 9698. (Mr. Harrison.) Was the ground taken this, Leather's BRADFORD, T. Constable, Esq. 14 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. R. Jeffery. O o 4 296 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORT). Mr. J. R. Jeffery. 14 Nov. 1866. Mr. H. Slee. that the condition of the canal was injurious to health * —The complaint made was that it was a public nui- sance, because the smell was so dreadful in summer time, and was becoming greater every year. 9699. (Chairman.) Did the gentlemen who sought for the injunction make application to the corporation to take the question up at first 2–I am not aware whether they did, but the matter has been brought under the notice of the corporation very frequently— I may say continually. 97.00. I think you stated that the gentlemen who joined in the application to the Court of Chancery were members of the corporation —Some of them Were. 97.01. They chose to take action in their individual capacity rather than in their corporate capacity – The corporation never would take action in the matter as a corporation. 97.02. Individual members of the corporation joined other gentlemen in starting the proceedings —Yes : - that is to say, it did not originate with members of the corporation, but members of the corporation, as indi- viduals, were parties to the proceedings. It was adopted as the best means. I may observe that the proprietors of the canal had no statutory power to take water from the beck. They had statutory power to take water from other becks, not the Bradford beck; and that was one of the points raised on the special case; but the judges decided that “whether their powers were statutory or not, they had no right to create a public nuisance.” They had also a right to make reservoirs under their Act of Parliament, which they had not made. These proceedings, of course, have involved considerable expense—some 2,500l. or more. 97.03. Will the law costs be paid by subscription among the gentlemen who took the proceedings — Yes, they will. The canal company have had to pay the taxed costs in the chancery proceedings only. 9704. (Mr. Harrison.) What was the date of the Act of Parliament that was obtained for the canal?— It was obtained in the reign of George III. ; it is re- ferred to in the amended information. 97.05. The canal company had powers given to them to take water from certain becks, but not from the Bradford beck 2–Yes. 97.06. And to form reservoirs for the supply of the canal which they have not made 2–Yes. 9707. They did not take water from those becks 2 —They took it from those becks, and they also took it from the Bradford beck. 9708. They took it in a great measure from the Bradford beck, but they had no statutory power to take it —Yes. 9709. Therefore they cannot turn round upon the corporation and say, “You had powers given to you to “ purify the water, but you did not do it; you are the “ offenders, and not we?”—Exactly. The witness withdrew. Mr. HENRY SLEE (Bradford) examined. 97.10. (Chairman.) You are a tanner —I am : my tannery is not by any means large in comparison with such tanneries as you find in Leeds. 9711. Where are your works situated?—In Chapel Lane, Bradford. 97.12. Are your works on the margin of the beck : —I believe that our refuse goes into the beck ulti- mately. 9713. Do you use steam power —Only for heating the water, and not for creating heat for any other purpose. 9714. What number of tan pits have you ?–Per- haps 40. 97.15. How many skins or hides do you tan in a year 2—I have not come prepared with statistics, but I should say that I tan about 3,000 hides in a year. 97.16. What are the skins which you tan 2–English hides from ordinary cattle. 97.17. Do you tan any foreign hides —None at all. 97.18. You tan English hides of bullocks and cows? —Yes. 9719. Do you tan any calves hides —No. 97.20. Or sheep skins —No. 9721. Where do you obtain water —From the corporation. 9722. What do you pay per 1,000 gallons?—My consumption in a year is not more than 300,000 gallons. 9723. Do you tan with bark —We tan with bark and various other tanning materials. 9724. With oak bark 2–Yes; and sumach and gambia, and all the ordinary materials. 97.25. What weight of tanning materials do you use? —I cannot give you the quantity; if I had been asked beforehand, I would readily have furnished the infor- mation. 9726. What is oak bark now worth a ton –It depends upon its state, whether it is chopped or ground. 9727. Take both states ?–6l. would be the price of it chopped, and perhaps 81. or 8l. 10s. for it ground. 97.28. What becomes of your spent bark?–We either consume it or throw it out into the street, and it is fetched away ; it is given away ; we get rid of it in the best way that we can, and we make so small a quantity that we find no difficulty about it. 9729. You do not throw it into the beck —By no In earl S. 9730. How many limeing pits have you?—Three. 9731. What do you do with the refuse from the lime —It is put among the bark, and we pay some- body so much a load to fetch it away. 97.32. Is there any glue making upon your premises? —No. 97.33. Do you sell any of the refuse for glue making? —We do. 9734. Is the hair sold –Yes, for plastering work, or for manufacturing purposes. 9735. For felting into carpets?—Yes. 9736. Then so far as you know you pass no refuse into the Bradford beck but the fluid –None what- eVeí’. 97.37. How frequently do you empty your tan pits? —It depends upon the waste. As the liquor gets spent, it is run away in the ordinary course of busi- ness, but there is no special time fixed for it to go away, either to-day or to-morrow. 9733. Have you had any complaints of your works from your neighbours ?—None. 9739. Is not tanning considered rather unwhole- some 2—i do not feel much effect from it, and I have been amongst it all my life. 97.40. You finish the hides completely upon your premises —Yes; for the purpose for which they are formed. 97.41. Have you drying sheds where you complete them 2–Yes; we are curriers and leather merchants as well as tanners. 97.42. For what is your leather principally used ?– It is used for mill purposes, for saddlery purposes, and for shoe purposes, both tops and bottoms. 9743. Do you tan any pig skins 2–No. 9744. Where are pig skins principally tanned — Chiefly either in Ireland or in Edinburgh; large quantities are tanned in Edinburgh. 97.45. Where do the pig skins come from ?–I could not state that as a rule, but there are not so many tanned now as there used to be. 9746. Do your skins lose much in weight in the tanning process —They do ; but the proportions I am not prepared to state. RIVERS COMMISSION :–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 297 97.47. A hide would not weigh so much when it had been treated as when it was green 2–Certainly not, by a considerable quantity. 9748. You do not deal with dry hides which are brought in from South America and other parts of the world 2–I do not. 9749. They, I believe, would gain in weight?—If they were dried hides, they would, I suppose, be salted hides. 9750. Of what age are the hides generally when they come to you?—As a rule, if we get them from the Bradford Market, they are very likely only a few hours old; but if we get them from Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, or other places, there is the time occupied in the transit. 9751. Do they come in with the tails complete – Not always; the tails are occasionally taken out. 97.52. In the case of those hides which came in with the tails, is the material which makes oxtail soup your perquisite, or the perquisite of the men —It is no perquisite of the men. 9753. You have the tails skinned 2–Yes, and I either sell them or use them. If they are unfit for human food, they are destroyed. 9754. They are buried or put away?—Yes. 97.55. Do they frequently come in in such a state as to be unfit for human food —They do not, because if they did so the hide would come in damaged ; when the tail is damaged the hide would be damaged. 9756. Do you sell the tails at so much per pound, or so much per tail –I do not know that I ever sold one in my life. We sometimes buy hides in the market by auction, and then the tails are taken off at the BRADFORD. auction, and so much a tail is allowed. 97.57. Is there a ready sale for them —I should say so. 9758. Of as many as you can make —Yes. 9759. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you know any cases where the lime water has been applied to irrigation ? —I do not. 9760. I presume that the lime water and the animal matter in it would be beneficial to the land rather than otherwise —No doubt, lime in particular. If we could keep the lime apart from our other dirt and refuse, it would then be very useful. 9761. Some of the foreign hides come to England salted very heavily –They do. 9762. That salt might, if put on as an over dose, be injurious to land; you have nothing of that sort — No, it is very insignificant. 9763. Would the tan water be at all injurious 2– I am not sufficiently a chemist to know that, but I should say by no means. 9764. You think that it would be harmless 2–I should say perfectly harmless. 9765. One way of getting rid of the tan water and the hide water would be to let it go upon the land 2 —Yes. 9766. Have you ever erected tanks for the purpose of allowing the material in the tan water to subside, and then let the liquid run off clear into the river ?— I have not. 9767. Do you know cases where that has been done 2–No. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM GoRDON THoMPSON (Bradford) examined. 9768. (Chairman.) You are a soap maker — I al]]. 9769. Have you soap waste grease establishments 2 —Yes. 9770. Where are your soap works situated 2–In the Canal Road. 9771. Near to the canal of which we have been hearing 2–Yes, close to it. 9772. How long have they been situated there?— Those works have been there about 12 years. 9773. What number of men do you employ —From 12 to 15. 9774. What weight of soap do you make per annum ?—About 400 tons. 9775. What are the ingredients which you use in your soap making 2—Oil, and potash, and tallow. 9776. Any resin —No resin. 97.77. Is it a peculiar sort of soap 2–No, simply a soft soap which is used here. 9778. You do not make soap for domestic uses — No, we do not make any hard soap. 9779. What amount of solid refuse have you from your soap making, and of what character is it 3– It is potash and lime refuse ; we use it for manure. 9780. Have you any liquid –None, excepting from the grease works. 9781. Where do you get the soap suds with which you deal —From Messrs. Thomas, Ambler, and Sons. 9782. Are they mann facturers in Bradford –They are spinners and manufacturers. 9783. Are they dyers?—No. 9784. What quantity of soap suds do you get from them 2–About 30 tons a week. 9785. Where are those works situated 2 — In Thornton Road. 9786. Is that near to the river or to the beck 2– They are near to the beck. 9787. Do you deal with the soap suds of more than one establishment 2–Yes. 9788. Of how many establishments do you deal with the soap suds?—Near Halifax we have two places. 9789. Do you know what quantity you take 2– Our quantity is extremely small compared with other makers. 17159.-2, 97.90. What weight of material do you get in the extract per annum ?–About 150 tons. 9791. What is it used for 2–For distillation. 9792. Do you distil it?—No. 97.93. Is it passed away to other parties 2–It is, 97.94. (Professor Way.) Do you contract for takingsoap suds of manufacturers ?—Yes. 97.95. I suppose that the process by which you separate the oil is sufficiently simple; you add some sulphuric acid –Yes. 9796. Is it an expensive process –It is rather so. 97.97. Is it the acid which makes it expensive, or the manipulation ?—It is the acid principally. 9798. What quantity of acid do you use in a year or per 1,000 gallons of soap water —About half a gallon of acid to a ton of water is what we use. 9799. A gallon of acid weighs 15 lbs. ?—Yes. 9800. That would be 15 lbs. of acid to 1,100 lbs. of water –Yes. 9801. Do you get the whole of the soap suds water, or only the richest parts of it —The whole of it. 9802. All the wash water P-Yes. 9803. Do you perform the operation at your own works, or at the works of the other people —At the works of the people where we have plant. We also have plant for purifying the water before we run it away. 9804. In what state does the water leave the works after you have done with it –If it is not quite bright it is nearly so; it is neutral; there is very little acid about it. 9805. That is to say you use as much acid as is necessary to neutralize the alkali of the soap *—Yes, if we can. 9806. That is the object which you have 2–Yes. 9807. Do you use heat at all —No. 9808. That, I believe, is out of your reach –Yes, it is under a patent. 9809. You cannot do it without license from Messrs. Teall?—Just so. We prefer the hot process to the cold one. - 9810. (Chairman.) Would you not use the hot one if you could —In most cases we should do so. We can do it by paying the royalty. 9811. (Professor Way.) Does the liquid stand for any time for separation after the acid is added ?–Yes. P p Mr. H. Slee. 14 Nov. 1866. Mr. W. G. Thompson. 298 Rivers commission :-MINUTEs of Evidence. BRADEORD. 98.12. For how long?—21 hours. 98.13. A part of it, I suppose, comes up to the top? —Yes, and a part goes to the bottom. 9814. Is it the rubbish and dirt which goes to the bottom 2–Yes; the lighter part floats, and the heavier part, containing sand, falls to the bottom. 9815. The quantity of acid which you use is very much smaller than it would be if the whole of the grease was in a state of soap; the grease is not all in a state of soap –It is not. 9816. There is a part which has been used as oil? —Yes. 98.17. And there is the other portion which has been used in a state of soap?—Yes, 98.18. Therefore the quantity of acid which you employ is not at all a gauge of the quantity of grease which you get out, is it?—That is a question. If there was no soap used, and we simply had to separate the oil from the water which comes from the wool washing, then the quantity of acid would be consider- ably less; it is owing to the potash contained in the soft soap that the quantity of acid is so great. 9819. Has it ever been attempted to make a lime soap *-I believe that it has. 9820. And to separate it by mechanical treatment —Yes. - 9821. Would not it form a curdy mass which you might more easily separate from the water?—Yes, but the quantity of acid to neutralize it would be consider- ably greater. 9822. That is on account of the quantity of oil which is not in the soap –Yes. - 9823. Otherwise no more acid would be require after it had been converted into a lime soap than before ?–No, because the combination is equal. 9824. I ask you that question because the success of the soap process in separating the oil and grease is not very great, so far as purification is concerned – No. 9825. It may be a sufficient success as a question of economy –Precisely so. 9826. Has any means occurred to you by which you could get a better result, so far as regards clearing the water 2–If we let all the water which we pass away run through lime it would be perfectly bright and neutral. We do it to a great extent. 9827. Supposing that you had another tank in which you could separate the liquid, could you deal with it and make it bright?—We do so. We find it practicable. 9828. And I suppose that no objection can be found to that liquid passing into the stream —I believe none whatever. 9829. Do you know Needham's press?—I do not. 9830. It is a press which is formed in compart- ments, and in which substances to be separated from the liquid in which they are suspended are forced into chambers lined with cloth ; the liquid passes away, and the solid comes out like oil cake 2–I do not know it. 9831. Do you think that it would be practicable to deal with the deposited matter of your grease works by such a method as that 2–I think that it would be very doubtful, because, although the colour of the water may be dark, it does not follow that there is any solid matter in it whatever ; it may be merely in solution. 9832. Supposing that there is matter in suspension, which by degrees subsides in tanks, would it be possible in your opinion to separate it by any pressure like this, much more rapidly and in a much smaller space 2 —It is possible that it might be done. 9833. Has your attention been drawn to that?— No. . 9834. It is the fact that such a process is being used very largely for separating, for instance, clay from water. I suppose that one of the great difficul- iies in carrying out your business is the room required for tanks 2–Yes. 9835. Manufacturers object to adopt any purifica- tion process upon that ground —Yes, in many Cases. 9836. Consequently if the space required for the process were reduced there would be much more pros. pect of the process being universally adopted F-There is no doubt of it. 9837. In these cases do you pay for the grease re- covered, or do you pay so much per annum ?—So much per annum. 9838. May we ask you what that amount is 2–It is so much upon every pack of soap consumed ; if they consume 10 packs of soap a week, we pay so much per pack. A pack is 256 lbs. The price we pay varies from 3s. to 5s. per pack; it is a matter of arrange- ment. 9839. (Chairman.) What is a pack of soap worth 2 —From 31. to 4!. We pay from 1-12th to 1-14th of the original cost. - 9840. (Professor Way.) You do not calculate the oil consumed as any part of the business —No ; it is simply on the soap. If they use more oil in the wool scouring, it is so much the better for us. 9841. Do you think that you get anything like the full quantity of grease ?—We have an impression that we do so. 9842. We have been informed by one or two dyers that they use as much as from 60 to 70 tons of oil in a year, at the price of about 60l. per ton, besides per- haps about 1,000l. worth of soap *—Yes. 98.43. If you got the whole or anything like the whole of that, you could pay them a very much larger sum than you do?—Yes, but it is impossible to do so. In operating upon it you reduce it very considerably; there is a certain part of the oil which must be soluble in the water which runs away. 9844. Do you not think that improved methods of treatment might give you an improved product in quantity, and enable you to pay a larger price with advantage to yourself for the treatment of the soap- suds?—I question it. 9845. If you could recover a considerable portion, or any fair per centage of the oil which the manufac. turers use, they would be better able to deal with the liquids 2—Certainly, but a great part of the oil we do not have at all; all the oil which is used for moistening the tops (and it is very considerable) we never see. 9846. Are not the goods washed subsequently – No, tops are not washed after they are made. 9847. What are tops?—After the washing of the wool the tops are spun into yarns. 9848. Are not the goods passed through soap after that P−I believe not. 9849. We have been told that a portion of the oil goes away in what they call food, that is, the spent waste or shoddy ?—That is so. 98.50. Do you not deal with the scouring process 2 —No. 9851. In a large mill something like 5,000l. worth of oil and soap is used in a year –Yes. 9852. And our object is to ascertain how much of that could be profitably recovered so as to enable manufacturers to deal with the liquids 2—Precisely. 9853. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you take the whole of the water which is used from the manufacturer, or do you merely take the best part of it 2–We have to take the whole of it. 9854. Is that the case at all the manufactories where you take the soap refuse –In every case with- out exception. 9855. Have you no power to stop the pumping at a certain point P−Yes, we could do so, but the waters are mixed, and therefore we should lose by doing it. 9856. Therefore you take the whole 2–Yes, we are compelled to do so. In some cases we can avoid taking the washing of the bowls, but not in every case. RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 299 98.57. (Professor Way.) Do you use bags in com- pressing the grease ?—We do. - 9858. Is one press in one factory sufficient 2–No, we have no presses in any factories; we have only one operation upon our water, and the raw materialis made into grease at the valley works. 9859. But in some cases presses are put down upon the premises —Yes. 9860. Are the bags made of coarse canvas?— Yes. 9861. Do they last long —No, they last for a very short time. 9862. (Chairman.) If the effluent water, after taking the grease from the top and the sediment from the bottom, were allowed to stand, would it decompose 2– I think that there are elements of decomposition in it. The witness withdrew. Mr. GEORGE HENRY LEATHER (Bradford) examined. 9863. (Chairman.) Are you resident in Bradford * —I reside at Bingley, near Bradford, but my place of business is in Bradford. 9864. What business do you carry on 2–I carry on two businesses; I am a worsted spinner and a vitriol maker. 9865. What number of hands do you employ at the worsted spinning works —I should think nearly 600. 9866. What kind of conveniences have they in the shape of privies or waterclosets —They have privies. 9867. Does any of the refuse pass into the beck – I think none. 9868. Are the privies emptied, and is the refuse carted away by yourselves?—The liquid is all taken by the cloth dressers; as regards the solid, we occasionally empty out the tanks when they require it, and we take it away on to the land. 9869. As worsted spinners, you do not pollute the beck by that form of refuse —No. 9870. Do you dye?—No. 9871. You simply spin 2–Yes. 9872. Have you any waste refuse in the operation of spinning —The suds from the washing of the wool. 9873. What do you do with the suds?—They go to the works of Teall and Le Paige, which are close by me. 9874. Then you do not pollute the beck by that water 2—No ; it runs in iron pipes from my works. 9875. What weight of soap do you use in a year 2 —I use about 15 packs a month, 180 packs a year. 9876. What amount do you get from your waste soap washing 2—I get 3s. on every pack of soap which I consume. I could get more, but I supply Messrs. Teall and Co. very largely with vitriol, and therefore I do not press the matter. I began with that price, and have never altered it. 9877. Where are your works situated —Close to the canal; they are in Dixon Street, on the upper side of the canal. 9878. Have you suffered any inconvenience in your works from the polluted state of that canal?—Yes, we have smelt it at times. We have had two very dry summers, but the canal has very much improved in the last few years compared with what it was eight or ten years ago, before Messrs. Teall and Company com- menced their works. 9879. (Professor Way.) Where are your vitriol works situated 2–Close on the canal, close to the mill. 9880. You make oil of vitriolf–Yes, sulphuric acid. I supply the grease extractors with immense quantities of it. 9881. Do you use pyrites ?—No: would be too much. 9882. Have you more than one chamber 2–Yes. 9883. Are you a large manufacturer —Yes, I turn out about 136,000 lbs. of vitriol in a week. 9884, Do you find that you get 3 lbs. of vitriol for 1 lb. of sulphur –We get more of the brown acid. 9885. Do you discharge anything from any part of your vitriol works —Nothing but water, water which has been used for washing dirty carboys, or anything of that kind. 9886. Those carboys have been previously used for vitriol 7–Yes. 9887. The straw and the dirt get in, I suppose, in the carriage —Yes; we rarely wash a vitriol bottle, the carriage but we sometimes get bottles back from the dyers which have been used for nitrate of iron, and a variety of purposes, and we just wash them out. 9888. But otherwise you discharge nothing from your chambers ?—Nothing. 9889. As a vitriol maker, you do not require an easement into the river for the discharge of liquids —No. 9890. If you commit a nuisance in any way, it is more likely to be by an injury to the air?—Yes, but we pretty well avoid that, for we have only one escape, and it goes into a high chimney. Some years ago we had about 32 escapes in to the atmosphere, and now we have only one. We try to save every fume which we can in every possible way. 9891. And the larger your works the more perfectly you do it?–Yes, I turn six large chambers through a seventh in order to recover all the nitre which I can ; not till then do the fumes pass into an outlet. 9892. (Chairman.) Do you know the extent to which soap is used throughout Yorkshire for wash- ing –No. 9893. Do you know any cases in which they do not attempt to recover the soap *—I believe they do not in the dye houses, they do not attempt to recover the oil and soap. 9894. Do you think that much of that soap might be recovered 2–I do not know in what way the dyers wash the pieces, and whether they would recover it there. 9895. (Mr. Harrison.) Where do you get your water from for cleansing your wool?—I have a gather of half an acre on the roof of my mill, and I collect all that water, and when we are short, we take the town’s Water. 9896. What quantity a day do you use –I could not state that. The gather off the roof as nearly as possible supplies me with water ; it of course can be calculated. 9897. Do you find that the smoke and the soots from the town at all get into that water –Yes. 9898. Do you take any steps to separate it —Yes, we have one of the large old wagon-shaped boilers, the water first flows into that, and there it settles ; and then into cisterns. We have to clean out the boiler every now and then ; in the course of a twelvemonth I should think that it would get from three to four inches deep with soot, and what flies about in the atmosphere. 9899. Adopting that process, are you able to get the water in a pure state for cleansing 2–Yes, it becomes quite clean. 9900. Would it be sufficiently pure for domestic purposes?—It might have a little taste, but we use it in the counting-house to wash our hands with, and it is quite as bright as the town's water. 9901. What quantity of that water do you use in the course of a year —I cannot say. 9902. What quantity of wool do you clean in the course of a year?—We vary considerably ; we wash I should think about 25 packs of wool a week. 9903. Is that chiefly English wool —Yes, it is all English wool. 9904. And that has not been washed before ; what loss in weight have you in the English wool?—It varies according to the counties from which it comes, but perhaps you might say that out of 16 lbs. there would be a suckage of 3 lbs. on an average. BRADFORD. Mr. W. G. Thompson. 14 Nov. 1866. Mr. G. H. Leather. P. p 2 300 Rivers CoMMISSION:—MINUTEs of Evid ENCE. BRADEORD. Mr. G. H. Leather. 14 Nov. 1866. Mr. C. Gott. - Mr.R.Sutcliffe. - 9905. Can you state what volume of water you use daily in cleansing your wool?—No, I really could not do so. 9906. Do you use the machines?—Yes, washing machines, machines with rollers. 9907. What volume of water to a given weight of wool do you put into one of those machines?—A tank perhaps would hold 200 gallons, and it may be filled with water five times a day. 9908. What weight of wool would that embrace?— About five packs, I should think. 9909. The whole of the water which you use in cleansing wool passes away into the soap works?—Yes. 9910. And that is coming from different machine at different times of the day; it all goes by one pipe 2 —Yes; it all runs into the tanks. 99.11. (Professor Way.) Who are your principal customers for oil of vitriol 7–Messrs. Teall and Com- pany, the grease extractors, are our principal cus- tomers, and the dyers; a large proportion goes into the agricultural districts for dissolving bones for In an ul’e. 9912. You spoke of brown acid –Yes; that is about 17 lbs. to the gallon, and not, as Mr. Thompson said, 15 lbs. The witness withdrew. Mr. CHARLEs GoTT (Bradford) further examined. 9913. (Mr. Harrison.) You were asked yesterday whether you could furnish a return of the volume of water supplied for trade purposes to different manufactories in Bradford – Yes (handing in a paper). 9914. You give this paper in as that return ? —That is the return, and it shews the quantity of water used by every person whom we supply with water for trade purposes; it is the last quarter's return ending September. 9915. And these quantities and the scale of charges which you hand in will give the amount which the corporation receive for water supply for trade pur- poses in the borough of Bradford —Yes, for trade purposes, where water is sold by measure. There are some few little trades where we do not sell by mea- sure, but simply charge an annual sum. The witness withdrew. Mr. Robert SUTCLIFFE (Idle, near Bradford) examined. 9916. (Chairman.) You are a millowner at Idle 2– Yes. - 9917. How far is that from Bradford 2–Four miles. 9918. Have you a local board at Idle *—We have a local board now ; it has been established about two ear’S. - y 9919. Are you a member of that local board —I am not. 9920. What trade do you carry on at your mill ?— Mine is a branch of the cotton trade, not woollen nor worsted. 9921. What number of hands do you employ — Nearly 100. 9922. Do you use steam power?—Yes. 9923. What amount of power do you use —About 40 or 50 horse. 9924. Do you know what weight of coal you burn per annum ?—About 800 to 1,000 tons. 9925. What do you do with your ashes?—They are carted away for road purposes. 9926. They are not passed into the beck or stream 2 —No. 9927. Are your works situated upon any beck or stream P-Yes. 9928. What beck 2–A tributary of the river Aire; it has no distinct name. 9929. Do you use much water upon your premises 2 —Only for condensing purposes. 9930. Then that is not a very large quantity ?— No. 9931. What privy convenience have you upon your premises for your hands 2—We have four outlet privies directly communicating with the mill floors, and the soil is collected in iron tanks just underneath. It in its turn is mixed with ashes and put on the turnip fields. 9932. You do not pass it into the beck 2. —Not at all. 9933. Do you suffer at all from pollutions from any adjoining works —I have done so, and we have had actions at law to a considerable extent, in which I was plaintiff, against owners of adjoining fulling mills, where soakage of wool and cloth went on ; the nui- sances were intolerable. 9934. When and where did the action take place? —After having submitted to great inconvenience for about 12 months, I issued a writ in May 1862, and the case went to York. 9935. Who were the defendants 2–The action was against Mr. Booth and his partners. The case was tried at York, and a verdict passed for the defendants upon all the issues, owing to the misdirection of the judge and the blundering of the jury. The records of the court would thoroughly substantiate my statement. We appealed to the Court of Queen's Bench. They set aside the verdict and made the rule absolute for a new trial, and Mr. Baron Martin referred the case to the late Mr. Hindmarch, the Queen's counsel, and he gave a decision for me and gave all the issues in my favour. 9936. You have proved that your remarks are correct by the subsequent proceedings?—Yes; in fact the case is an authority now in the courts, that no man has a right at common law to pollute the water. That is what Mr. Justice Wightman laid down upon the argument. 9937. Was it a very costly proceeding to you ?— Mr. Hindmarch divided the costs of the award between the plaintiff and the defendants; they applied to him in formá pauperis, and he divided the costs. I think that the matter cost me 700l., and the other parties about 1,200l., making about 2,000l. altogether. 9938. Was the game worth the powder and shot ?— Certainly. 9939. You were satisfied that it was a beneficial proceeding to you ?–Decidedly. I would do the very same thing again with the very same results staring me in the face, but, of course, you cannot calculate what juries will do, or what judges will say at Nisi prius. 9940. Does the river Aire flow west of Idle for four miles 2–Yes, it makes a bend. 9941. Is the Aire very foul ?—Yes, the manu- facturers have completely spoilt the river Aire in the last 10 years. 9942. Have you paid any attention to the utilization of sewage 2–Yes, a great deal. 9943. What conclusions have you formed upon that subject —I do not think that I could speak it in half such good language as I have written down. I wrote this paper in eatenso for the use of the commissioners. 9944. You put in this paper ?—Yes. I do not think that I could add anything to it, but I should be very glad to be examined upon it. 9945. Have you seen any of the methods of utilizing sewage which have been put into operation 2–I have not specially seen them, but have made them the subject of reading and observation. 99.46. What conclusions have you formed as to the best methods of utilizing sewage 2–I consider that water is the very best carrier for sewage matter. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 301 9947. From the dwelling houses —From the dwel- ling houses. I would separate the rainfall and flood water as far as possible from the sewage water. I would use water in its minimum quantity and in a uniform quantity, to transmit the sewage matter to a certain outlet or outfall at a convenient place. 9948. I suppose that you have read Mr. Menzies’ pamphlet?—I have not read his tract, but I have seen it commented upon. 9949. You have fallen into the same groove —Very likely. Having carried the sewage by water to the outlet, I would then discharge it into a receiving tank, or reservoir. I should not intend that tank to be a filtering reservoir, but it should be merely used as a sort of head water or reservoir for sewage matter, which would be afterwards dealt with. 9950. To extract the sediment 2–No, merely as a reserve. I would then have another tank of suitable dimensions; it might be as large as this room ; and I would drive by steam power the sewage matter into the second tank at the bottom. I think that Prince Albert was the first man who adopted that plan at Windsor. I would have a mixture of ashes, sand, &c., and I would thoroughly intermingle the sewage with these substances, and would allow the water after the act of deposit to escape at the top. If the water was then not thoroughly purified I would pass it in a similar manner through a second tank, which tank might have a supply of animal charcoal in it, and I think that by that means, by using the water system and the earth system, and by using both in combination with steam power, you would be able to restore the water to a state of comparative purity. I should never look for absolute purity. 9951. Have you formed any opinion as to the best method of ventilating sewers ?—In 1848 or 1849 I draughted my mill cesspools straight into the chim- nies, and that plan was very much liked by the inspectors. 9952. You think that it is necessary thoroughly to ventilate sewers ?—I should think it advisable. 9953. (Mr. Harrison.) What course have the mill- owners who are situated on the beck above you pur- sued, so as to prevent the nuisance on account of which you brought an action against them —They have done just the same as some of the people at Huddersfield did. I gave them a right of way through my property to discharge their polluted water, so long as they did not put it into the main water course before it reached my mill reservoir; they have made a culvert, and have discharged their water in another direction below the point of the mill stream where I take the water. 9954. You gave them the means of passing it by you, and left it to your neighbour below to bring another action against them if he chose 2–Precisely. I merely got rid of the nuisance; the nuisance is there all the same, although I am protected from it. The plan which I have been suggesting respecting the utilization of sewage would make a sediment into a solid form, useful for arable land ; and that is a very great desideratum, because you cannot always get land for irrigation purposes; you cannot, for example, get it here. 9955. (Chairman.) You are aware that attempts have been made to utilize sewage by solidifying it 2– Yes, but I am not aware that steam power has been brought into operation to assist it. 9956. Have you ever seen the works at Leicester 2 —No. 9957. Or at Croydon —No. 9958. Or at Coventry —No. 9959. Or at Rugby ?–No. 9960. Are you aware that they have all ended in commercial failure ?—I am not aware whether they have or not. 9961. They have assisted in clarifying the sewage, but commercially they have ended in absolute failure ? –Precisely ; but I do not always consider that a per- son who pollutes water ought to make a commercial success in taking the filth out of it ; it is a question of duty; it may be another question whether it would be advisable to establish a joint stock company for the purpose. 9962. You do not advocate it upon commercial grounds, but as a question of avoiding a public nuisance 2–Yes. 9963. And you think that the scheme which you have sketched out by your evidence, and by the written documents which you have put before us, is calculated to produce that end ?–I do. 9964. (Professor Way.) If your wish is to preserve the streams from pollution, you are going hand in hand with your duty 2–My only object in coming here is to suggest anything which may be useful to the com- missioners, not that I for a moment presume that I can throw much light upon a subject of this sort, which has been so much discussed; but to contribute every mite towards restoring the streams of the country to a state of comparative purity. 9965. At Leicester, and at many other towns, precipitation of sewage is attempted; and certainly the water which flows off is very much purified from the solid matter. As Mr. Rawlinson properly says, it is clarified rather than purified. In these works they have to deal with the sludge and sediment — Yes. 9966. And they have formed only one practicable way of carrying away that sediment for agricultural uses, which is to bring the town ashes and refuse to the same spot, and to mix them with that sludge. When they so mix them they are mixing a dry stuff with the sludge, and are therefore drying up the quantity of water, and making it practicable to carry out the plan –We find that the porosity of the ashes takes up the liquid. 9967. Will you not have a difficulty if you make the ashes as wet as the sludge which you stop 2–I propose to use water in its minimum quantity. 9968. Still the whole material of your filter would be wet 2—Yes, but it cannot be wet unless it absorbs what is positively filtered. 9969. When you empty your filter beds, how would you deal with the water which you take out * – I would either dry out some of the moisture, or take the stuff to the fields in its then condition. 9970. Is it not the case that the material is of very little value agriculturally —When it is thoroughly saturated, we find it of very great value for turnip fields. I take, for instance, the privy tank from our own mills, with a mixture of soap and water and things of that sort. 9971. Do you call the emptying of a privy sewage 2 —Yes. 9972. Would a ton of that and a ton of Bradford sewage be of the same value agriculturally —Cer- tainly not. 9973. That is the question with which you are to deal —I would reduce that quantity of water to its minimum. 9974. That is the difficulty —Yes. 9975. Dry ashes now constitute the only means by which they can dry up the sludge in precipitating tanks, which, as the chairman has said, have been hitherto failures, and I should say not only commer- cially but for purposes of health. At Leicester, where tanks have been made for the purpose of stopping every portion of solid matter (upon the view that the solid matter is of value), and where they have had the best tanks irrespective of expense, people are crying out against the process and wish to abandon it — Still it is not for them to stipulate for commercial success when they are removing a nuisance which is caused by themselves. 9976. You are going to wet your ashes, which is the only means of getting rid of the sludge –The ashes are full of porosity; they are like a sponge. I will suppose that a stream of polluted filth comes in con- tact with a layer of ashes, and the sponge-like holes in the ashes become filled up with solid matter, and the longer that is continued the more will they become impregnated with solid sewage, and the more will the water be in a condition to escape. BRADFORD. --- Mr.R.Sutcliffe. 14 Nov. 1866. P. p 3 302 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, BRADFORD. Mr.R.Sutcliffe. 14 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. W. Leather. 9977. You know that the water which you thus allowed to pass away, no matter what filtering it may go through, contains four-fifths, if not nine-tenths, of the value of the manure ?—That may be so as applied to irrigation, but I should say not if the material be mixed for arable land. 9978. Where they use ashes, as at Coventry and at Leicester, in order to make the sludge into a workable condition, they get I believe from 1s. 6d. to 2s. a load for it. At Leicester they cannot get anything, but at Coventry the town brings the ashes to the sludge, and they cart out this material, of course using a large quantity of ashes, but even there they cannot get it sold at 2s. 6d. a ton all the year round. What manure do you think there can be in a material which can only fetch 2s. 6d. a ton —That I cannot tell, but in the neighbourhood of Bradford you cannot get land for irrigation. If the sewage cannot be solidified, what can be done with it 2 9979. (Mr. Harrison.) Cannot you pump?—You cannot get filtration ground. 9980. (Chairman.) Could not you reach land avail- able for pumping —That is entirely a question of cost, but my own impression is, that if you were to bring in steam power in aid of your present appliances you might have a combination of the water system nd the earth system, or employ each separately. 9981. (Professor Way.) You have mentioned Prince Albert's system of filtration. I happen to have gone down to Windsor, and to have seen him upon the occasion, and undoubtedly the thing is a failure ?—That may be, because steam power was not brought to work it. The witness withdrew. Mr. JoHN WIGNALL LEATHER (Leeds) examined. 9982. (Chairman.) You have been in practice as a civil engineer for many years?—Yes. 9983. Your father, who I am happy to say is still living, has practised for many years also as a civil engineer —Yes. 9984. He was a contemporary with Mr. Telford and many eminent men of by-gone times —Yes, he was rather younger than they. Mr. Telford was consulted upon the improvement of the Aire and Calder, my father being the acting engineer; he, and also Mr. Rennie, had been consulted previously. 9985. You have been largely engaged as a civil engineer for many years —About 36 years, as pupil and in practice. 9986. There have been some reservoir failures in Yorkshire 2–Yes. - 9987. Your family or your father have had nothing to do with those failures —With the Sheffield calamity we had nothing whatever to do. With respect to the Holmfirth calamity we had executed the reservoir which failed, but that failure was no more due to any defect in the engineering than the fact of Kirkstall Abbey being now in ruins is a re- flection on the architect of that building, because it arose entirely and purely from the neglect of necessary repairs. 9988. You had designed and executed the reservoir embankment as engineers ?—Yes. 9989. With certain arrangements for safely passing off flood waters ?–Quite so. 9990. You had ceased to be engineers, and had passed over the works to the commissioners?—Yes. 9991. And you had ceased even to be consulted about it 2–0uite so. 9992. The embankment, in course of time, as all embankments will, had subsided ?–Yes. 9993. And the bye wash had not been altered to correspond with that subsidence 2–No. 9994. Were you aware of that condition of things 2 —No. 9995. You had not been communicated with ?— No. - 9996. If you had been communicated with, would you have thought it your duty seriously to remonstrate against that state of things —Certainly. 9997. That state of things existing, the failure of that embankment took place in consequence of the gross neglect of the proprietors —Quite so. 9998. With the Sheffield failure you had nothing to do, directly or indirectly —Neither directly nor indi- rectly. 9999. How many years have you known the valleys of the Aire and Calder –Ever since I was a boy. 10,000. In what condition were the waters of those valleys when you first knew them, as compared with their present condition ?—They were very much better than they are now. When I was a young man I often bathed in the Leeds and Liverpool canal, near to Spring Gardensin Leeds, where there was a plantation, but it is now quite impossible for any young man of the present day to think of such a thing as going to bathe there. 10,001. Do you recollect as to the flooding of the rivers and streams in the Aire and Calder valleys at the earlier part of your career; do you think that the floods are heavier now than they were formerly 2–I think that the floods are perhaps rather less than they were formerly. 10,002. Would that be in consequence of reservoir space being made above, and of land drainage, or from what cause ?–Partly, I think, from reservoirs having been made, and partly from the improvement of land drainage having laid the lands drier. 10,003. Do you think that it can be attributed to any natural causes other than those which we have spoken of, such as a failure of rainfall, or the stripping of trees, or anything of that description ?—Probably, by reason of improved drainage having made the lands drier, there may have been less evaporation, and therefore less precipitation of vapour. 10,004. I suppose that with the growth of popular tion and the growth of manufactures, the rivers have become polluted from various sources, such as sewage and the waste refuse of manufactures 2–Yes. 10,005. Have you been consulted professionally with regard to any of these pollutions?—I was employed in the year 1844 to devise a scheme for providing a main sewerage for the town of Leeds, and I devised a scheme which was laid before the town council, in a report, dated 10th February, 1845. 10,006. Will you briefly describe that scheme — The principal difficulties in the way of draining the site of the town are described at pp. 25 to 27 of my report, and arose from the extreme flatness of the portion on the south side of the river, on which are Holbeck and Hunslet, and the southward of Leeds, having an area of about 900 acres, and from the alternation of certain bold ridges and hollows on the northern side, some of the ridges pushing close to the river's edge. Captain Vetch, who had been previously consulted, very aptly describes the site of the town where he observes in his report “In many respects the situation “ of Leeds resembles that of London; they are both “ traversed from west to east by a river which divides “ the town into two unequal portions, the northern “ one being the largest ; in both, the northern portion “ stands on high ground and the southern on low, flat “ land ; and in each, in its passage through the town, “ the river forms a bend to northward of similar “ importance. “The River Aire,” he also observes, “in passing through the town, forms a large bend to the north- east, the chord of which, from Monk Bridge to Hunslet Bar, is somewhat better than a mile and three-quarters in length, while the curvature or breadth of the same is somewhat more than half a mile, and the space thus comprehended is remarkably low and flat, and forms the principal site of the town of Leeds, south of the river; buildings, however, & - < º « Rivers COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 303 “extend to the south of the chord line, parallel to “ which the rising ground commences at no great “ distance ; ” to which I would add that the northern part of the town is chiefly situated on the slopes of a tributary of the Aire, called the Addle Beck or Sheepscar Beck (which has its course nearly parallel with the river) and on the ridge between that beck and the river, which attains to an elevation of some 200 feet above the river. Captain Vetch proposed to treat the two sides of the river by separate systems of sewers. A full consideration of the question induced me to recommend that the sewerage should be kept clear of the river and becks, and carried below the town, but that the whole should be treated as one system, and that the entire sewerage should be carried to one outlet only instead of to two outlets (one on the north and the other on the south side of the river), as recommended by Captain Vetch. I gathered the whole of the waters from about 780 acres of the high-lying ridge above described (and which I called the north-western district) to one point on the northern side of the river; then passed the sewer by which they were so collected under the King's Mills pool of the river, from the north side to the south, whereby I not only avoided the ridges which interposed the main difficulty to a continuous trunk sewer for the north side of the river, but I brought the waters of those 780 acres of high lying and gene- rally steeply sloping streets, &c., to bear upon and afford a scour for the flat and low lying southern dis- trict, which is then traversed by the main trunk sewer, in almost the chord line of the arc formed by the river. I then pass under the river again (the Hunslet Mills Pool) and, immediately afterwards, receive the main sewer of the north-eastern or Addle Beck district, of about 720 acres; and, thence, the main trunk proceeds forward (having received the sewers of all the three districts) to the Thorpe Mills Pool, where it enters the river some two miles below the town. The main sewer for the north-western district is 4; feet by 3% feet, and passes under the King's Mills Pool at a depth of 14; feet below the ordinary water level. The main sewer for the north-western and southern districts combined is 6 feet by 5% feet, and passes under the Hunslet Mills Pool of the river at a depth of about 124 feet below the ordinary water level. The main sewer for the north-eastern or Addle Beck district is 4 feet by 3% feet. The main trunk sewer is 7 feet 9 inches by 8 feet, brick with a stone invert, but the last 300 yards is open cut, with retaining walls, level in the bottom, and enters the Thorpe Mills Pool of the river about 3 feet below ordinary water level of that pool. Fall of main trunk is 1 in 1,634. The crown of Thorpe Mills Pool is 28 feet below that of the King's Mills, so that the outlet of the sewer is 31 feet below the level of the King's Mills weir. The length between the first and second crossings of the river is about 1,600 yards. The length of the main trunk sewer is 1,550 yards from junction of Addle Beck sewer to the open cut, so that there is a fall in less than two miles of about 16} feet, of which about 15 feet is between the two crossings of the river, giving to the main sewer of the very flat and low lying southern district the satis- factory slope of 1 in 313, with a depth of 123 feet below ordinary surface water of the proximate pool of the river. The 300 yards at the outlet was made open cut with a view to the utilization of the manure, or to afford facilities for purifying the sewerage by precipitation before it was put into the river. My estimate for the main trunk and principal branch sewers, so far as the same passed along the public highways, was 80,000l., and the scheme was recom- mended by me as the best course to be adopted on sanitary, engineering, and financial grounds. It was adopted by the Town Council, and was most favourably reported on by the surveying officers sent down by Government, in accordance with the then practice of Parliament. The Town Council afterwards decided to sewer at the public cost all streets which were tho- roughfares, though not declared public highways, whereby the actual expenditure will probably be more than doubled. The three townships of Leeds, Holbeck, and Huns- let were declared a drainage district. They have an area of about 4,490 acres, all of which contribute to the sewerage rate, though the actual district for which provision was made comprised an area of only about 2,400 acres, and of which about 940 acres only were then occupied by streets and buildings. I am satisfied that the river and brooks at Leeds, bad as they are, would have been in a much worse condition but for the intercepting sewers, but I believe that the state of the river below the outlet of the Leeds sewers is very much worse. 10,007. Is that the scheme which has been carried out 2–Yes. There were technical difficulties in the way of carrying it out, and an Act of Parliament was necessary; that Act was obtained in the year 1848, and I think that it was 1850 before the scheme was actually begun. 10,008. Whatever the scheme is now, it was devised by yourself, and it has been carried out as far as regards the main trunk sewers ?—Yes. The principle was to keep the sewage entirely out of the river and the brooks. 10,009. And the scheme has been devised as regards Leeds, so as to concentrate the sewage at one point P —Yes. 10,010. And at present it is passed in block into the river Aire?—Yes. 10,011. The fact of its being at one point would enable the Town Council of Leeds to deal with it as may be thought best in future ?—Yes. With a view to facilitating that object (as I have stated) a length of 300 yards at the end was made open cut, with retaining walls and slopes, so that, in that 300 yards, works might be adopted either to lift the water and use it for irrigation, or to make large reservoirs and pre- cipitate the impurities, so as to carry the water purer into the river; but nothing has been done in either direction. 10,012. Have you any statistics with regard to the valley of the Aire, showing the population and the number of persons to each acre 2–Yes; it occurred to me in writing the report to which I have alluded, that an examination of the statistics of the river Aire and its tributaries would enable us to form some approxi- mate notion of the comparative salubrity of the different streams; that the pollution of the water would be in the compound proportion of the extent of surface draining into each particular stream, and the amount of population located on such surface, or in other words that the number of individuals per acre of surface would furnish an approximate expression of the quality of the water —as, for instance, if we found the number of individuals per acre in one district to be 100, and the number of individuals per acre in another district to be only two, we might infer that the relative impurities of the water in these two dis- tricts, or the amount of impurity per gallon of water, would be in the one district represented by the num- ber 100, and in the other district by the number 2, or as 50 to 1. With that view I abstracted the population of the valley, dividing it into districts, so as to make a com- parison ; and the results of that examination, taking the population of 1841, are stated in my report. But I can give you the results as respects the population of 1861. In the table No. 1, which I now hand in, there is given every place in the valley of the Aire, with its population at each decennial period from 1801 to 1861. (This table will be found printed at the foot of the evidence of the witness.) I have also a map here which will give you the entire watershed of the Aire down as far as Leeds, and the places with the population marked upon them (producing the same). That is a map which was prepared in 1862; it is a lithographed map. I will leave that map with BRADFORD. Mr. J. W. Lea ther. 14 Nov. 1866. P p 4 304 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, BRADFORD. Mr. J. W. Leather. 14 Nov. 1866. you; the part tinted green is the valley of the Aire, and the part tinted red is the valley of the Wharfe. 10,013. You I think originally designed the scheme of water supply which has been carried out for Brad- ford 2–I did. 10,014. You were the engineer in chief ?—Yes. I also carried out the scheme. 10,015. And you have designed waterworks for Leeds?—Yes; I executed the original works for Leeds. 10,016. And you designed extensions?—Yes; I recommended them in 1851 to go to the river Wash- bourn. 10,017. Is that something like the scheme which Mr. Filliter has now adopted –I believe that it is the identical scheme, but modified to some extent. 10,018. In what respects do you conceive Mr. Filliter's to be a modification of the scheme as you proposed it 2–Because they are proposing to let the water run down to the lower part of the Washbourn, and then to pump it back again ; they are also pro- posing to take a much larger proportion of the water of the Washbourn than Ithink at all suitable for domestic purposes. My scheme proposed to take 6,000,000 to 10,000,000 gallons for that purpose, and they propose to get 23,000,000 gallons per day. It is quite im- possible that they can get 23,000,000 gallons per day suitable for the supply of the town, and they must spend 7,000l. a year in pumping a portion only of that water, which money might have been much better expended in getting water coming by its own gravita- tion of a better quality, and at less cost. 10,019. Have you reason to suppose that the pro- prietors of the soil in the valley of the Washbourn and its district and in the valley of the Wharfe will favour Mr. Filliter’s scheme, or will oppose it?—I be- lieve that they will oppose it. 10,020. Had you any such scheme for the supply of Leeds from the valley of the Washbourn ?–Not at that time. 10,021. Do you know the present supply per day to the population in Leeds 2—I think that the con- sumption is now about 4,500,000 gallons per day. 10,022. How many gallons per day per head would that make, taking the population ?—I have not worked that out. 10,023. It is about 16 or 18 gallons, is it not?—I think that it is more than that. 10,024. Taking out the water used for trade pur- poses, is it not that quantity —it may be. 10,025. What is your usual calculation per head of the population for domestic and trade purposes in a town like Leeds 2—I should take 30 gallons per head now for a town like Leeds ; but then I should take the prospective increase of population into account. 10,026. Would 30 gallons be necessary, or merely desirable 2—I think that it would be desirable to make a provision of 30 gallons upon the prospective population, looking forward for some 15 or 20 years. 10,027. Looking at Leeds as it is now, you would in any scheme provide for 20 years further?—Yes. 10,028. Do you think that 23,000,000 gallons per day, in addition to the present volume supplied to Leeds, is at all required or will be required in 20 years from this time, they having upwards of 30 gal- ions per head now —I apprehend that they will abandon the pumping from the Wharfe, which is the source of a great portion of the present supply. They get about 1,500,000 gallons a day from the old source, what we call the Eccup source, which is the first gravitation scheme. Then we (the Waterworks Com- pany) proposed to go for 6,000,000 gallons more from the Washbourn, but it was overruled, and the council took possession of the works and have got powers to pump the 6,000,000 gallons from the river Wharfe at Arthington instead. 10,029. Do you know the quality of that water which is pumped from the river ?—I believe that, chemically examined, it does not show any very great amount of impurity. 10,030. There are some few manufacturing places above —Yes. 10,031. If the refuse water from those places could be kept out of the river, do you think that it would be an objectionable source of supply 2–Of course it passes through a large extent of cultivated land. 10,032. From what source does the Washbourn derive its waters?—Chiefly high, peaty moor land. 10,033. Is the water bright or discoloured 2–It is very highly discoloured in summer and autumn, but there are times when it is very bright and colourless. 10,034. I suppose that during frosty periods it would be bright?—Yes, some of the tributaries would also be generally bright. 10,035. Do you think that water which should be always bright could be procured from the district 2– I do not think that any of those waters which would come by gravitation would come at all times colourless. 10,036. (Professor Way.) Still you would have more chance of getting a smaller quantity colourless 2 —Yes; I calculate that we might have got 6,000,000 to 10,000,000 gallons colourless, and have passed the coloured and turbid water into reservoirs for compen- sation. 10,037. So that if the supply was considerably magnified, you would have to give up quality for the sake of quantity P-Yes. 10,038. If you take an inordinate quantity of water into a town, and have afterwards to get rid of it in the shape of sewage, it is, I suppose, an extra labour to you ?—I think that it is an advantage to get a large dilution of the sewage matter with pure water. 10,039. (Chairman.) What is your table No. 2 (This table will be found printed at the foot of the evidence of the witness)?—It exhibits the population of the valley of the Aire from its source down to and including the town of Leeds and its suburbs, at the several periods at which the census has been taken, from 1801 to 1861, both inclusive ; showing also the rate of increase of the population in each of the decennial periods. From this table it appears that the population of the whole valley of the Aire down to and including Leeds, Holbeck, and Hunslet, has increased 21%ths times in 40 years up to 1841, and that it has increased nearly 3} times in 60 years, ending with 1861. 10,040. (Mr. Harrison.) Has that increase varied very much in different portions of the basin of the Aire?—Yes. The increase from 1801 to 1811 was 17% per cent, that is, taking the whole valley. In the 10 years ending 1821, it was 34 per cent. In 1831 it was 363rds per cent. In 1841 it was 253rd per cent. In 1851 it was 223rds per cent. In 1861 it was 12 per cent. I am omitting minute fractions. 10,041. Not taking the basin generally, but taking the districts which you have marked upon the plan, do you find that the increase in the several districts varies very considerably –Very much so. 10,042. Take for instance, No. 1 district, what is the increase from 1801 to 1861 —I have not worked out that ; I have not taken the districts. The first sub- division of table No. 2, is the main valley to the west end of Leeds township. 10,043. Taking the tables which you have put in, in No. 1 district, the increase of population from 1801 to 1861 is how much –A little more than 50 per cent. in the 60 years. 10,044. Is not that a large area —That is down to and including Skipton, 65,000 acres. 10,045. In the next district, what is the increase, and to what point does it reach –The next district reaches to just above Keighley, where the Worth valley comes in. The increase in that district is not 100 per cent. in 60 years; the figures are not doubled. 10,046. The next district, No. 3, takes you down to Shipley, does it not –It includes Bingley and Keighley, which are manufacturing places, and there the population has nearly trebled in the 60 years. 10,047. No. 4, which is Bradford proper, has increased how much in the 60 years?–In the 60 years it has increased more than sixfold. RIVERS COMMISSION :—Miln UTES OF F.VIDENCE. 305 10,048. It includes, and is confined pretty nearly to the Bradford beck?—That is exclusively of the valley of the Bradford beck. - 10,049. The next district, which goes to the suburbs of Leeds, namely, No. 5, including Calverley, Rawden, and Apperley Bridge, and Eccleshill and Guisely, and other places, has increased to what extent?–Down to the west end of Leeds it has increased over three- fold. 10,050. Or nearly the same as the district above Shipley –Yes, that is the Keighley district. 10,051. No. 6 is a district including Armley, Pudsey, Tong, and Morley ; how much has that increased ?– That is the district of the Holbeck beck, and includes a little of the borough of Leeds. 10,052. How much has it increased years?—About 3} times. 10,053. Then No. 7 is Leeds proper. I do not think that you have it shaded separately?—No, the sub- divisions have been altered in the population returns. 10,054. What is No. 82—No. 8 is the Leeds Addle beck district. 10,055. How far does No. 9 reach –It includes Hunslet, below Leeds; it includes the Addle beck and the Hunslet beck below Leeds. 10,056. How much has it increased in the 60 years 2 —Taking Nos. 7, 8, and 9 combined, they have in- creased from 36,677 to nearly 150,000. 10,057. Does that include Addle and the Addle beck —It includes the Addle beck. 10,058. In fact, it includes the valley of the Addle beck and its tributaries?—Yes. 10,059. What is the increase there 2–It is more than fourfold. 10,060. No. 9 is Hunslet beck 2–Yes; the three townships of Leeds, Holbeck, and Hunslet have in- creased from 40,664 to 159,150. 10,061. That is about fourfold 2–Nearly so. 10,062. So that it shows that whereas Leeds has increased about fourfold in the 60 years, Bradford within the Bradford beck area has increased sixfold * —Yes. 10,063. And the other manufacturing portions of the valley appear to have increased about three to one? —Yes, the township of Leeds has increased 3-83-fold ; the townships of Holbeck and Hunslet 4:16-fold in the 60 years, and Leeds, Holbeck, and Hunslet, taken together, 3-94-fold; the whole valley of the Aire, down to and including Leeds, Holbeck, and Hunslet, 370-fold. Then, Table No. 3 (which will be found printed at the foot of the evidence of the witness) ex- hibits the area of surface drained by the river Aire at several points of its course down to and including the town of Leeds and its suburbs, the amount of popula- tion residing on such surface, and the average number of individuals per acre in the year 1861, exhibiting also the same particulars as respects its tributaries, the Bradfordbeck, the Pudsey or Holbeck beck, and the Addle beck. From this table it appears that the Skipton district drains 65,000 acres, with a population of only 12,733, giving 0-196 individuals per acre, that is, giving upwards of five acres to an individual. 10,064. How would you describe the geology of the portion No. 1 —The north side would be mountain limestone, and the south side millstone grit. 10,065. That is not a district to which attention has been much drawn as a source of water supply — No. 10,066. What is the reason why that large area has not been drawn upon at all as a source of water supply for the district below —The hardness of the water, I think, has been the cause. 10,067. Have you taken any gaugings of the volume of water coming down the river at these different places —No. 10,068. (Professor PP'ay.) Roughly, how much water is contributed by the mountain limestone ; is it a third of the whole river ?—I should think nothing approaching one third. 10,069. Do you know it to be very hard water — I have never tested it in any way. 17159.-2. 10,070. But you would suppose it to be hard water —I know that in the upper reaches of the Wharfe the water is found on analysis not to be nearly so hard as I should have conceived it would have been, although it is from the same mountain limestone. 10,071. The general character of the water of the ridge on this side, as well as of the Wharfe water, is soft, is it not ?–-It is about 11 degrees of hard- ness, whereas the Thames water is about 14 to 18 degrees of hardness: but the Washbourn water is only from two to four degrees, varying with the seasons, the Washbourn water being entirely from the millstone grit. 10,072. (Mr. Harrison.) What are the circum- stances of district No. 2 –I do not make calculations for each district separately, but keep accumulating the results down the valley, so as to give the state of the valley at each point. The Bradford beck district, includ- ing Bradford town, has a drainage area of 13,100 acres, and a population of 126,484 individuals, giving 9-655 individuals per acre. The population has increased in the whole valley thus far to 1-342 individuals per acre, as compared with 0.196 in the Skipton district. Then the Holbeck beck, which enters the river at Leeds, drains 16,000 acres; it brings the sewage from 74,037 persons, giving 4-627 individuals per acre, the population of the whole valley to this point being represented by 1.79 individuals per a Cl’e. 10,073. Is that about half the population per acre as compared with the population in the area of Bradford beck –Yes; but just below Bradford town the Brad- ford beck has drained 11,000 acres, with a population of 115,181 persons, giving 10-471 individuals per acre, or nearly 10, that is, excluding the lower portion of the 3radford beck, and taking it just below the town of Bradford. Addle beck, when it reaches Sheepscar bridge, has drained 9,000 acres, with a population of 23,931 persons, or 2.659 individuals per acre ; but, on entering the river at Leeds, where it has taken a large portion of Leeds town, it has drained only 9,500 acres, with a population of 87,520 individuals, or at the rate of 9-213 persons per acre. The ultimate result, there- fore, is that the river Aire, on entering the district, is the drain of 170,300 acres, and has received the sewage of 259,385 persons, and, that on leaving the district, it has become the sewer of 479,409 persons, and the impurity has become that of 2.404 individuals per a Cre. 10,074. (Professor Way.) To avoid any mistake, would you go further, and say that these different districts receive the sewage of so many people — Yes. 10,075. Your calculation is simply of the number of persons to the acre –Yes. 10,076. Without any reference to whether they do or do not discharge their sewage —Yes, it is an assumption. 10,077. You do not ascertain the actual area drained or sewered at this moment?—Not absolutely by means of sewers. 10,078. Supposing the whole of the population to drain into these rivers, that would be the result – Yes. 10,079. (Mr. Harrison.) These remarks as to population would simply refer to the question of sewage, and would be no guide as to pollution from manufactures : — Just so ; but I presume that those impurities will be somewhat in proportion to the population of the district; probably they will be to a somewhat larger degree than the population of the dis- trict, that is to say, that a population like that of the Bradford beck will probably put a larger amount of impurities into the stream per individual than the population of the Skipton district. 10,080. A few years ago a great deal of the dyeing of Bradford materials used to be carried on at Leeds? —A great part of it is still carried on at Leeds. 10,081. But the dyeworks at Bradford have in- creased immensely in the last few years, and they are a great source of pollution –Yes. {\ } BRADFORD. in the 60 Mr. J. W. Leather. 14 Nov. 1866. 306 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, BRADFORT). - Mr. J. W. Leather. 14 Nov. 1866. 10,082. And the number of people employed in the dyeworks is small as compared with other manufac- tories. Some of the manufactories in Bradford, em- ploying a vast number of persons, send no pollution into the river at all from the manufactories them- selves?–No, but the impurities from dyeworks and manufactories would be represented to some extent by the population. 10,083. So far as sewage goes —Yes, and also to some extent as respects trade purposes. 10,084. (Professor Way.) The persons forming that very population are engaged in work in which they pollute the river, so that the population, instead of being a measure of the pollution as in a non-manu- facturing district, respresents a very much greater pollution ?–Quite so. 10,085. You could not compare 10,000 people living in a mere trading town with 10,000 people living in a manufacturing town ; the sewage would be the same, but the refuse which they would make and pass into the stream would be very different 2– Quite so. 10,086. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you had an oppor- tunity of gauging the volume of water passing out of the Aire and Calder respectively 2–No. 10,087. How long have you known the Bradford beck 2–I was born at Bradford, and I have known the Bradford beck ever since I was a child. I have known it when it had minnows in it. 10,088. A minnow would have a poor chance now * —Yes. 10,089. In what condition were the tributaries of the Bradford beck then 2–They were quite bright and pure. 10,090. What is the condition of the Bradford beck now 2–It is one of the most polluted streams which I know anywhere. 10,091. Have you had anything to do with the Bradford canal?—I was concerned in proceedings which were taken by the inhabitants of Bradford, to obtain an injunction as to the Canal Company's using that water. - 10,092. Were you engaged in that case on the part of the inhabitants 2–Yes. 10,093. There was no case for the Canal Company to stand upon —No, except user. I suppose they would rely a little on prescriptive right ; that was overruled, and it did not prevail in that case ; they were held to be doing an illegal act. 10,094. Have you any remarks to make on the Bradford canal case ?—No. 10,095. How does the canal in its present condition affect the value of property adjoining it 2–If the water were bright and pure, I imagine the property would be much increased in value; its present con- dition has a depreciating effect upon the value of property along its course. 10,096. Have you been able to obtain any statistics as to the Calder, as in the case of the Aire 2–I have made an abstract for 1851 and 1861 of the valley of the Calder, down to its junction with the Aire at Castleford. It drains 253,850 acres, and in 1861 it had a population of 432,917. (These statistics will be found printed in Table No. 4 at the foot of the evi- dence of the witness.) 10,097. As against how many in the valley of the Aire?—My analysis of the statistics of the valley of the Aire extends only down to Leeds; that is shown in table No. 3, and there is not a very great difference between it and the valley of the Calder. The worst of the tributaries of the Calder is the Hebble brook, which drains Halifax; it has only 7,100 acres of gathering ground, and drains 51,488 persons. In 1861 there were at the rate of 7} individuals per aCre. 10,098. Have you got a table shewing the increase in the population in different parts of the valley of the Calder 2–In 1851 and in 1861, not before. In 1851 the total population was 387,990, and in 1861 it was 432,917, shewing an increase of about 46,000. I was surprised to find that the river Calder, at the Wakefield waterworks pumping station in 1861, re- presented by this arbitrary rule, was in as bad a state as the river Aire was below Leeds in 1841. 10,099. Can you give the area of the Aire at Leeds, and the area of the Calder at Wakefield, and the population in the two cases in 1861?—The area of the Aire, below Leeds, is 191,400 acres, and the population is 479,409, giving 2:404 individuals. Now the Calder, below Wakefield, has an area of 241,450 acres, and a population of 418,706 persons, giving 1734 indi- viduals per acre. - 10,100. Do you know the condition of the river Aire below Leeds, and of the Calder below Wakefield, now 2 —I have not seen the Calder below Wakefield for some years, not since we executed works for the im- provement of the navigation. 10,101. I believe you have the means of comparing and putting in juxtaposition the area of the Hebble basin at and below Halifax, and the area of the Brad- ford beck at and below Bradford, with the population in each case ?—The Hebble brook has 7,100 acres, and in 1861 it had 51,488 persons, giving 7.251 individuals per acre. The Bradford beck, down to its confluence with the Aire, has 13,130 acres, and a population of 126,484, giving 9.65 individuals per acre. - 10,102. Although both of those becks would be extensively polluted, yet the proportion of pollution would be rather in favour of Halifax 2–Yes. The river Colne, including Huddersfield, has only 1919 individuals per acre ; and taking it down to its con- fluence with the Calder, only 1:574 individuals per aCre. 10,103. There is a large area above Huddersfield, is there not *—Yes; it drains 44,800 acres, including Huddersfield. 10,104. Now take Todmorden; does that pollute the stream much on which it stands –It is in the upper part of the district. The population in 1861 was less than 1 person per acre down to Halifax, where the Hebble enters the Calder, the drainage is 68,940 acres, with a population of 63,465 persons, showing 0.920 individuals to an acre. It is worse than the Aire just before the entrance of the Bradford beck, including Keighley and Bingley ; for, up to that point there are only 0.518 individuals per acre. After receiving the Bradford beck, the rate is only 1.342 per acre. 10,105. Can you state what is the area of the gathering ground above Todmorden 2–No; I have not taken that out, but it would be very much less than this quantity, and the population would be relatively as large. There are some populous places, such as Hebden Bridge and Sowerby Bridge, below. 10,106. The population of the whole district of the Aire and Calder valleys is rapidly increasing, is it not ?–Yes, very rapidly. 10,107. And that increase is the result of the in- crease of manufactures?—Yes. 10,108. It appears from your evidence that the pol- lution within your memory has increased very much indeed. In the Aire and Calder themselves, and espe- cially in some of the tributaries, such as the Hebble and the Bradford becks?–Yes. 10,109. If manufactories go on further, the nuisance will become, of course, greater every year —Yes. 10,110. Do you consider that some steps should be taken to prevent this increase of pollution ?—I do. It is very important that some preventive measure should be adopted, but I think there may be consider- able difficulties in carrying them out in crowded towns. I believe that the dyers have almost crowded up all their space, and have scarcely room left for filtration or precipitation; but I think that something might be done in the way of precipitating the solid parts of the dye wares. 10,111. Have you directed your attention specially to the subject, and can you suggest any means of pre- venting this pollution ?–In the districts unbuilt upon there should be some supervision before trade premises are allowed to be erected on the banks of streams. The districts ought to be placed under a special control, RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 307 wholly unconnected with the locality. Neither town councils, nor boards of health, nor even river commis- sions, are suitable bodies for the purpose; that is to say, when elected by the inhabitants of the districts. The streams ought to be put under some independent inspectors, such as the factory inspectors, or the inspectors of mines, or even a higher class of men than those possibly, and better paid. Their duties would be more important; they would be required to possess scientific skill and more independence of action. 10,112. How would you deal with a case like Brad- ford, for I am afraid it would be almost impossible for any inspectors to search out all the sources of pollution ?—I do not see that there would be any greater difficulty in inspectors finding out the evil than in the authorities finding it out; possibly in many cases the authorities are the wrong doers. 10,113. (Professor Way.) If the corporation of Bradford carry out a system of sewerage, and allow individuals to pour their refuse into the sewers, you might probably bring an action against the corporation for polluting the brook by the refuse coming out of the sewers?—There ought to be some measure by which they should be compelled to purify the sewage to some extent before it passed into the streams. 10,114. From your knowledge of the whole district, do you think there would be any difficulty in obtaining land for the purposes of irrigation ?—There would be a difficulty, I think, in the case of Bradford, in getting a sufficient quantity for irrigation purposes—a great difficulty. I do not know of any large areas of land lying favorably for useful irrigation from the Bradford SeWei'S. 10,115. You say that you have carried out water- works in connection with Bradford 2–Yes. 10,116. Before a large quantity of water is brought to a town in a confined district, such as the Bradford beck area, below Bradford, to be polluted in the town, should not some condition be made under which the authorities should undertake to distribute the sewage and the polluted water either by irrigation or other- wise, and not allow it to pass down the river and become an increasing cause of annoyance to the people below the town 3–It is, no doubt, desirable that some- thing should be done to purify the sewage before it passes into living streams, but bringing a large quantity of pure water to the town must dilute the impurities, and therefore must be beneficial rather than otherwise. 10,117. If the water were brought into a pure state, and it was so poured into the brook, your argument would be good, but if it is brought in polluted I do not see that the argument holds good at all ?—The same amount of impurities would find their way into the brook in either case, but if a greater quantity of pure water were brought in, that water would tend to some extent to qualify the impurities. 10,118. If it was a question of rendering it as little noxious as possible, the greater the dilution the better; but on the other hand there is the proposition that in order to purify impure water the less you have to purify the better —Yes. 10,119. To refer again to the water supply of towns, I presume that if it be desirable that the polluted water of towns should be kept out of the streams which pass through those towns, it would be also desirable that no excessive quantity of water should be carried into those towns to be polluted 2–I suppose so. 10,120. If you had to deal with that water after- wards, the more closely you can restrict its use, so long as it effects the purpose for which you have used it, the more likely you will be to purify your stream? —You would have a smaller volume to deal with, but it would be a more concentrated essence. 10,121. Volume I believe means cost 2–Yes, it does to some extent in filtration and precipitation. 10,122. If it is a fact that that water must be passed into the river, the more diluted it is the better 2–Yes. 10,123. If it is resolved to keep it out of the river, the less water you deal with the better?—Yes. 10,124. Consequently the question of sewage will affect the question of the future water supply 2–Yes, in that way it will. 10,125. I thought you said that in the case of Leeds the proposition was to bring in 23,000,000 of gallons to satisfy such a population as there will be 30 years hence, whereas you have formed the opinion that 10,000,000 of gallons are at present adequate 2–Yes, or for a long time to come. - 10,126. If that were so, might we not assume that the 23,000,000 of gallons to be dealt with as sewage would cost twice as much as 10,000,000 of gallons 2– Yes, undoubtedly, if it had to be lifted or treated in any way. 10,127. Again, in a natural state of things every inhabitant of a country would seek for his water at the nearest stream to the spot where he had settled down 2–Yes. 10,128. Consequently the distribution of the in- habitants and the distribution of the water supply would be in parallel directions; where there were most inhabitants there would necessarily be a supply adequate to their wants —That is the natural course of events. 10,129. If you go for 25,000,000 of gallons of water, and monopolise all that water unnecessarily, taking more than is required for your rightful consumption, even supposing you did not interfere with the existing population, would you not pro tanto prevent the rise of population in districts which you deprived of their water ?–No, I do not think that that follows in all cases, because a district may be unsuitable to the growth of a manufacturing population, on account of the distance that coal may have to be conveyed. 10,130. Take the case of the Wharfe, would not the railway now projected along its margin be likely to open out the valley as a manufacturing district 2– I think the population there would be increased very materially, but not in the higher reaches of the Wharfe. 10,131. If you were to take a large quantity of water from the higher reaches of the Wharfe would you not pro tanto diminish the chances of population springing up on the banks of that river ?—I do not think that that follows, because wherever a water- works company or a corporation take water from the Wharfe, we are bound to provide compensation in water for the millowners, which really is more than an equivalent. 10,132. That is to say, compensation for the mill- owners who have mills there or who will have mills prospectively –It compensates them all in time; it compensates the river. 10, 133. Does it compensate the non-existing millers ?–It improves the flow of the river in a dry season, and that is a benefit not only to those existing there now, but to all those who may come there for trade purposes. 10,134. Do you think it a right and proper thing for a town to take more water than it really wants by monopolizing these sources of supply –I think it is for the authorities or for the company themselves to judge whether they are taking more than they want. 10,135. If it were a very wrong thing, I suppose it would not be attempted 2–No. 1 think it is right to look forward to some distant period, and not to limit the draught to the mere present necessity, because it entails very great additional cost to have to go to Parliament again in a very short time, and that is necessary where a scheme of stunted proportions has been adopted. 10,136. Do you think that a water supply ought not to be just what can be obtained, but that it ought to be restricted to what is really necessary 2–Yes, taking a prospective view of the probable increase of the district. 10,137. If 10,000,000 gallons would be sufficient, would you seek for power to take 25,000,000 gallons? —No, I think that would be unreasonable. 10,138. (Mr. Harrison.) I believe you have been engineer for several reservoirs in this neighbourhood —Yes. BRADFORD. Mr. J. W. Leather. 14 Nov. 1866. Q q 2 308 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. IBRADFORD. Mr. J. W. Leather. 14 Nov. 1866. 10,139. Have you prepared any statistics as to the rainfall within the basins of the Aire and Calder that you can put in –I have got the rainfall at several places in the district, but I think you have had that laid before you. 10,140. (Chairman.) Is it not given in the docu- ments that you laid before me upon the Bradford inquiry after the Daledyke disaster —I am not quite sure of it, but I can supply you with the rain returns of the district. 10,141. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you well acquainted with the river Aire throughout its course ?—Yes. 10,142. Do you know that part of it which has been improved by a number of landed proprietors —Yes, 10,143. Have you observed what has been done, and do you believe that they are actual improvements 2 —I have not seen them since they were executed. 10,144. (Professor Way.) Do you know the springs at Hewenden P-Yes. 10,145. What do you call them —The Many well springs. 10,146. The water is peculiarly good, is it not ?— Yes, it is beautiful water; it has scarcely two degrees of hardness, I believe. 10,147. From what strata does it come 2—From the millstone grit. 10,148. From some particular bed 2–Yes. 10,149. Do you know the Stubden reservoir 2–Yes. 10,150. Is that much the same kind of water –It is very nearly as pure, and of about the same hardness. 10,151. It contains more organic matter ; do you think that is from the peat?—Yes, probably so. There is a little peat on the little stream that comes down. 10,152. Do you know any means of keeping that peat out 3–No ; I do not think it prevails there to any serious extent. 10,153. It gives a tint to the water, does it not *— Yes, at times there is a slight tint, but I believe it is very good water. 10,154. (Chairman.) You have a mechanical ar- rangement in your conduits, have you not, for turning to waste any water that you wish to reject –Yes, we can do that. 10,155. And by mechanical arrangement only 2– Yes. 10,156. Have you any detailed drawings of the arrangement you have adopted P-I think I have at Teeds; it is a very simple, self-acting arrangement. 10,157. Is it something in the shape of a throttle- valve 2–There is a certain width of opening like this (eaplaining by a sketch). 10,158. If I recollect rightly, there is besides that an iron flap that you can turn down –-Yes, by that we can either increase the width of the opening or can close it entirely. 10,159. In devising a scheme for the water supply of Bradford or Leeds, what volume per day would you take as a basis for domestic and trade consumption ? —30 gallons per head, taking a prospective view of the population. 10,160. Have you formed any idea of the number of gallons per head which are legitimately used ?–I have no means of separating the trade uses from the total consumption. 10,161. Do you know whether any portion of the water that is passed into a town, such as Bradford and Leeds, is wasted by the inhabitants or by imper- fect apparatus, leaking joints, bad taps, taps left open, and neglect of various kinds 2—There is great waste of water from neglected apparatus in the towns gene- rally. 10,162. Is is your opinion that at present in towns generally there is a very large amount of waste —I think there is. 10,163. From one cause and another ?–Yes. 10,164. A more perfect method of distribution, if it could be discovered, would utilize a portion of that waste 2–Yes. 10,165. What proportion of water is given in com- pensation to the streams under the Bradford scheme as compared with the volume taken from them?—In the Bradford scheme I have departed from the usual course. The usual course is to give compensation upon the same streams that the water is taken from. The millowners then become the first takers; that is to say, they are guaranteed a certain proportion, which is considered to be about one-third of the total esti- mated flow, and the town takes nothing until the mill- owners are secured their third. It has often happened from over-estimates that the town has not really got so much as the millowners have got ; but in the Bradford case I have treated the matter differently. I gave the millowners a reservoir upon an independent gathering ground; I gave it up to them to do as they pleased with it. That reservoir was capable of containing about 630,000,000 gallons, and we calculate upon get- ting from the valley of the Wharfe from 8,000,000 to 10,000,000 gallons per day. Of course our springs are entirely without any first takers. We have all that we can draw from the gathering ground, without any first takers or any guarantee to the mills. They have a reservoir, and they draw from that as they please. 10,166. In speaking of one-third of any area, do you mean one-third of the gauged flow from the ground or one-third of the calculated average rainfall —The general custom is to assume a certain rainfall, and deduct a proportion for evaporation and loss, and then give a third of the net proceeds of an average year. 10,167. Do you think that that has hitherto been a fair proportion for the companies to give —I think it has been a boon to the millowners rather than to the companies. - 10,168. You diminish the liability to stoppage from floods, by giving them a regular flow in a dry season 2 —Yes. 10,169. Have you been at all professionally con- cerned in the Manchester or the Liverpool water- works?—I opposed the Liverpool waterworks when the Liverpool people were going for an alteration of their line. 10,170. Is it the fact that they have been compelled to buy off by money compensations that which they had guaranteed to supply, in consequence of having a scarcity of water —I think that they have done that at Manchester. 10,171. And at Liverpool also 2–I am not aware hat they have. 10,172. Would that indicate to you that the com- pensation water had been over estimated by the engineers at first –Yes. I think that the yield had been over estimated. There is great temptation to over estimate the yield, because one set of engineers first shew that they are going to get a large supply for a small sum of money, and then other engineers come to oppose their scheme, and they over estimate the yield, in order to get as much as they can for the millowners in way of compensation. 10,173. Would you take it, that the engineer is required to have his estimate of volume upon the lowest known rainfall of any 12 months —I think the mill- owners would not submit to his doing that ; they would insist upon a certain average being taken. 10,174. If an engineer is to secure to his district a certain supply of water, is it not necessary that he should know what would be the driest year that he could possibly have to pass through 2–It is very desirable that he should have a view to the driest time. - 10, 175. Are you aware that the people of Liverpool were promised 16,000,000 gallons a day ?—I have understood they were. 10,176. And that in several years the supply has fallen below 9,000,000 a day?—I have seen that stated in a report by Mr. Duncan. 10,177. Was not the volume over estimated in that case ?—Yes. I think very likely it was. 10,178. Is it likely to have been over estimated because averages were dealt with instead of dry sea- sons —Yes, and possibly also because a larger volume was taken than was found in practice to be given out, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 309 10,179. Would you not infer from that, that it was much safer to ascertain the driest known season, and take that as the basis for the supply 2–Yes, it would be safer if it would be submitted to by the parties interested in the streams. 10,180. If these facts were laid before a committee in Parliament, would they not deal with them as facts, especially if the districts had suffered severely in con- sequence of miscalculations —I think the system I have adopted of giving an independent reservoir and independent gathering ground, is by far the safest way. Engineers came who represented that the proper capacity of a compensation reservoir for the Wharfe district was between 1,300,000,000 and 1,400,000,000 gallons. I gave a reservoir capable of containing only 650,000,000. There were clauses referring it to Sir William Cubitt, who was to say whether it was an equivalent; if not, he was to cut off certain streams which we were not to take, until we had provided what he said was an equivalent ; his award was that a reservoir capable of containing 625,000,000 gallons was an equivalent. 10,181. Have you had much to do with Sir William Cubitt —Not very much. 10,182. Did you not find that he was rather in ad- vance of his period, and that he was inclined to take a broad and liberal view of things?—Yes. 10,183. You might have had your scheme submitted to a man who would have dealt with it very differently, might you not 2–Yes. 10,184. If you take the driest possible period to base your supply upon, I suppose on the other side the wettest season must be taken, and the greatest possible amount of rainfall in the shortest time, as the test to which your works will have to submit in times of flood water ; I mean your bye-wash space for the delivery from your reservoir, must be capable of ac- commodating the largest volume of water that can come in the shortest time —Yes, quite so. I laid out the works, so that the largest possible quantity would not rise two feet above the sill of the waste weir; the reservoir bank is six feet above the sill of the weir. 10,185. Do you remember what volume a minute you calculated would come in a flood from each 100 acres?—About 30 cubic feet per second from each 100 acres. 10,186. Has that been ascertained from gaugings, or is it only speculative?—From observations. 10,187. Have you any large works, which are sub- ject to that volume of water 2–We never have had so large a flood as that. (The witness subsequently informed the Commission that on November 16, 1866, there occurred one of the highest floods ever known - in the district, there being nothing higher on record since 1775. At Doe Park Reservoir the water rose 16 inches over the sill of the waste pit, two 18-inch valves being also open ; at Stubden Reservoir the entire flood passed down the waste water channels, and was not admitted into the reservoir at all ; at Barden Reservoir the same ; at Grimwith Reservoir the flood ran 18 inches over the sill of the waste weir; and at Hewenden Reservoir it ran 25 inches over the sill of the waste weir, there being at this weservoir the discharge from the two 18-inch valves at Doe Park, in addition to the volume of the flood itself.) 10,188. Have you provided for a larger flood than ever you have known 2–Yes. 10,189. What is the largest flood you have known 2 —I have never heard of water rising more than about a foot over the waste weirs of any of these reservoirs; having executed the works I leave them, and they are not under my management any longer. 10,190. Do you remember what has been the largest rainfall that you have ever had to deal with, or heard of in this country —I think somewhat over two inches have fallen in an hour at Kendal; Doctor Dalton, I think, instances that rainfall. 10,191. Would you be surprised to hear that in Birmingham in 1855 1.90 inches fell in half an hour 2 —That was a very extraordinary fall. 10,192. If an engineer knows that he is subject to that kind of risk, he would be, I suppose, anxious to provide for it in bye-wash room —Yes. 10,193. In some of your works you have laid out bye-wash space in the solid, and in some the valve wall forms the bye-wash 2–Yes. 10,194. After the great experience you have had, if you had to begin again and you were about to lay down rules for reservoirs, which of those should you prefer 2 —I think it would partly depend upon the situation and the cost. 10,195. Do you like quite as well to throw the water over the top of the vertical shaft as to send it down a bye-wash in the solid —I think that where the area of the drainage ground is very large I should not throw the water over the top of the vertical shaft. In the case of 5,000 or 6,000 acres of gathering ground certainly not, but up to 2,000 acres I rather prefer to use that mode of dealing with the waste. 10, 196. You mean the vertical shaft P---Yes. 10,197. Does not that, for the time being, interfere with your valve —No; the gangway by which the valves are drawn is raised above the overfall of the well. 10,198. The power of the water to do mischief would be in proportion to the volume and the height from which it fell ?—Yes, to some extent. 10, 199. If it falls 30 to 40 feet you must have a pro- portionate mass of masonry to receive the shock 2– Yes. 10,200. If you have your bye-wash on the solid, you may lift it in four-feet lifts as you may think right – Yes, and take it in small steps. 10,201. Would you prefer, in making your bye- washes, to take it down in steps or from a shoot?—By steps. 10,202. Letting the water gradually down 2–Yes. 10,203. So that the velocity would be no greater at the last step than at the first 2–No. 10,204. With a long shoot in a fall of 100 feet, the accelerated velocity below would be greater than the velocity of the water outgoing from the reservoir 2– Yes. 10,205. And it would be more destructive 2–Yes, or liable to be so. 10,206. In forming reservoirs where you have a head of 70 or 90 feet, would you prefer to place the valves at the bottom, or would you have intermediate means of drawing off?—I should prefer the latter. 10,207. You would have several heads —Yes, two or three heads. 10,208. These, I believe, you have provided for in your works?—Yes. 10,209. Is there anything further that you wish to add –Yes. I might add, I think, that the brooks and streams in these very populous districts might, in my opinion, be improved by having the angles cut off and side walls and inverts adopted. I made that sug- gestion in my report to the Leeds town council in 1845, but nothing was done at that time. They went last session to obtain powers to do that with the Sheepscar beck and the Addle beck. I also suggested in that report that reservoirs might be formed in the upper district. 10,210. Do you remember what reports you put in before me —I gave you Captain Veitch's report, Mr. Wickstead's report, and a rejoinder to his report from myself. I gave you also the report of the deputation that went to Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, and London to inquire into the general provisions that were made for flushing and ventilating sewers and other matters. 10,211. Those reports are to be taken as being put in before us to-day?—If you please ; they are quite at your service. I wish to draw the attention of the Commissioners to the principle of rating for works like these for river improvements, and if you will refer to the report of the 10th of February 1845, upon the BRADFORD. Mr. J. W. Leather. 14 Nov. 1866. Q q 3 310 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD, means of providing an effectual sewerage for the town is the reason why water power is less valuable than it M. of Leeds, at page 125, you will find this passage, “the used to be. avir. - - ” ºr, - - J wºn... revenue to be derived," &c. (reading the same.) 10,222. (Mr. Harrison.) Is not a great part of the 10,212. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you acquainted with water that comes down a river in a very droughty the water power on the Addle beck at Leeds 2—I am season derived from deep-seated springs?—It may be 14 Nov. 1866. generally. There are several mills upon that beck. 10,213. It seemed to be difficult at the same time to preserve that water power and to keep the polluted water out of that beck — recommended in my report that Sheepscar mill ought to be bought, and the dam done away with as a dangerous nuisance, so as to give free scope to the beck; the Sheepscar mill pond is a great nuisance. Coals are now so cheap in that district that water power is not a great object. Mr. Holroyd, a dyer at Leeds, made an erroneous statement before you in ignorance of the facts. He stated that he attributed the diminution in the flow of water in Addle beck to the circumstance of a portion of it having been diverted to the Eccup reservoir, but that is a mistake. No part of the water of that beck has been so diverted. I think that it is attributable partly to improved drainage, and to the fact that a reservoir which they had on the Addle beck some years ago was allowed to get out of order. I think a flood broke down the dam, and it was never repaired ; they were paying a certain sum a year for the use of water that was sent down this stream from that reservoir, but now they have not got that water in a dry time. 10,214. At what rate per 1,000 gallons, if extensive works for the supply of Leeds with water are carried out, do you anticipate they will be able to deliver water for trade purposes –-I suppose at about 3d. per 1,000 gallons; 2d, or 3d. 10,215. At the present time they pay from 6d. to 1s. ?–Yes, I believe 6d. is their minimum. 10,216. That is a heavy charge —Yes. 10,217. Do you suppose that if you could deliver it at 2d. per 1,000 gallons, it would be largely used ?– Yes: no doubt it would be much more largely used. 10,218. (Professor Way.) Did you say that you thought the improved land drainage brought the water down more rapidly or more equably throughout the year —I think it tends to bring the water down more rapidly in a flood. 10,219. It has been stated that land drainage has tended to equalize the water in river courses through- out the year during drought and flood. On the other hand, this opinion has been entertained that it brings the water down very rapidly in times of heavy rain- falls, leaving very little as the minimum quantity of water in the summer time —My notion is that it brings it down more rapidly in a flood, and there is less water left in dry seasons than there was. 10,220. If you find the general opinion is, that there is less water in a drought than there used to be, you would perhaps be inclined to consider that such dimi- nution was partly due to improved drainage 2–Yes, especially in a boggy district where the bog acts as a sponge, holding up the water, and giving it out over a lengthened period. 10,221. I can instance the case of a common in Surrey, which yielded a certain quantity of water per day very regularly throughout the year, but the quantity being found too small for the supply of a town, underground drainage was carried out with the view of obtaining a larger supply; and should you be surprised to hear that in the summer season no water could be found on that common?—No. I think that that illustrates what I have just now said, that the common acted like a sponge, holding the water and giving it out by degrees; they cut through the sponge, and then they deliver the water more rapidly, and I think that would be the general result of drainage. That so, probably, in some districts. 10,223. Do you imagine that any mere agricultural surface drainage would stay the water that goes down to those deep-seated springs, or withdraw it 2–1 think it might intercept some of that water. 10,224. If it is a free soil, and if there are springs out of the chalk, would any drainage in the chalk for agricultural purposes have any effect at all ?–I think it is possible that it might cut off some of the water which otherwise would percolate through the chalk. 10,225. It has been stated that in the drainage of a considerable extent of land, the result of a drain passing for a short distance over chalk, and then into impervious strata was, that the water, instead of being discharged at the outlet, was passed into the chalk?— Yes. 10,226. If that was the case with water gathered from a considerable area, would it not be much more the case in ordinary agricultural drainage, where there was a large surface of chalk for the water to pass through –If the drain passes over a stratum that would absorb the water or allow it to pass into feed- ers, it would be of no use putting drains in. 10,227. The deep-seated springs are at a consider- able depth below the surface of such pervious land 2– Yes. - 10,228. No surface drainage could affect the springs that issue from such pervious strata ?–No, inless they cut them out before they arrive at the point; the chalk comes quite to the surface. 10,229. I can understand the case you have put of a peat bog acting like a sponge placed upon the sur- face of the soil, and delivering the water out gradually, and that when it was drained the water should be taken away, and that the summer supply should be diminished. I could also understand, if there was a superficial bed of gravel, and you tapped that pretty deeply, and drew off the water, that the discharge in the summer would be diminished ; but I cannot imagine that any artificial drainage in pervious strata, such as chalk, the oolites, or any free substrata, can ever diminish the summer flow 2–Assuming that there was an imperfectly pervious stratum over a very pervious one, the drains might carry away from the super-stratum the water which would have gone down in time to the very pervious strata to feed the deep- seated springs; but chalk comes so near to the surface, and is so pervious, that land drains would be of no uSe. 10,230. Have you made any observations upon the volume of water passing down any river in this neighbourhood, taking the minimum flow, and com- paring it with the rainfall in the season, so as to be able to say whether the minimum rainfall has di- minished of late years —I cannot say that I have ; but it is a matter of observation amongst the millers that the water has been reduced in most of the streams of the district. The people on the Wharfe think so, and a gentleman living on the Addle beck said so at Leeds. I know that that is the general impression, and I believe that it is well founded. I attribute it to improved drainage. 10,231. Do you think that that impression can be a well-founded one, unless you go carefully into the volume of water passing down a river, and compare that with the rainfall ?–No ; I think it would be a vague impression that might be well founded, or it might not. The witness withdrew. - - - - - - - - - - The witness put in the following Tables. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 3.11 TABLE No. 1. (referred to supra, Question 10,012.) STATISTICs of the River AIRE and its TRIBUTARIES.–PopULATION of the Valley of the Aire, from its source down to and including the town of Leeds and its suburbs, at the several periods at which the Census has been taken, from 1801 to 1861 both inclusive; abstracted from the published returns, and divided into districts. - º- 3. | 1801. 1811. 1821 1831. 1841. 1851. 1861. 3.3 - - - ź Name of Place § ###| # ###| # Ée # ###| # ###| # ###| # #5 º - #33 ###|| 3 #3 3 ##|| 3 & 3 | ###| #33 ###|| 3 & 3 || 3 ##| 333 ###| #33 ### :^ #_3 #_3 3-3 || 3–3 || 3–3 | #. #_3 #. Z | #. § #. 3 || 3–3 | # 3 || 3–3 | #. c 335 | 3'sä gº g’sº as: 355 335 | g så 335 | 355 335. g’sº 335 | 333 2. a- P- a- º- ſº- º- P- ſh- ſº- A- *- * a- | | Malham - - - - - 262 306 262 259 233 188 184 Kirkby Malhamdale - - 167 175 202 219 195 139 | 128 Malham Moor - - - 98 97 88 94. 102 92 115 Aire Town - - - - 139 176 187 179 217 225 236 Otterburn - - - - 26 47 40 66 48 54 59 º Hetton-with-Boardley - - 172 212 180 176 191 187 155 * | Rilston - - - - - - 177 192 145 115 121 # 107 *: Flasby-with-Winterburn - 120 150 134 143 140 124 113 3 Eshton - - - - - 84 63 69 82 74 84 81 º Cold Coniston - - - 342 257 345 336 242 289 238 3 | Crawe - - - - - 95 81 89 5 76 79 | 69 E. Gargrave -, - ... - - - 728 sº; | 972 | 1,062 1,176 1,214 1,103 3 Embsy-with-Eastby - - 623 692 Sºl "ji 962 948 1,028 * | Sturton-with-Thorlsby - - 134 149 168 170 132 182 127 ~ | Bank Newton - - - 68 102 | 139 125 | 129 * | 106 d Marton - - - - - 393 | 384 464 443 381 341 256 2. Thornton-in-Craven - - 1,202 1,545 1,829 2,246 2,354 2,202 2,112 Coates } - - - - - 11 27 2 22 "35 34 30 Barnoldswick i. - - - 192 223 | 333 #! 462 | 4:4 | 702 Broughton-with-Elslack - 380 401 427 407 ºf 335 | 274 Calton - - - - - 60 74 76 79 75 56 Skipton - - - - - 2,305 2,868 3,411 | 4,181 4,842 5,044 5,454 -- 7,778 ––– 9,119 10,447 – | 11,790 – 12,588 –— 12,563 12,733 s gowling : - - - - 1,140 1,449 1,870 | 2,242 2,458 2,305 1,815 .3 Bradleys Both - - - 385 412 506 614 557 571 442 5 Farnhill-with-Cononly - - 876 | 1,045 1,350 1,567 1,618 1,853 1,369 .2 Kildwick - - - - 209 216 175 190 - 206 | 170 * | Silsden - - - - - 1,323 1,606 1,904 2,137 2,346 | 2,508 2,582 º Glusburn - - - - 533 654 87 987 | 1,052 1,320 1,475 2 Sº..., n.,,..., 809 953 1,092 1,153 iº 1,660 1,699 T- Steeton-with-Eastburn - - 510 545 753 859 963 1,289 1,341 - 5,785 -- –– 6,880 8,457 – 9,756 — 10,475 ––– 11,712 10,893 E v. Haworth - - - - 3,164 3,971 4,668 5,835 6,303 6,848 5,896 as 333 Keighley - - - - 5745 6,864 9.32% 11,176 13,413 tº 18,819 ; : # Wilsden - - - - - 913 1,121 1,711 2,252 2,684 | 3,454 2,888 ####| Thornton - - - - 618 754 | 1,025 1,492 1,697 2,013 1,907 "#33 Morton - - - - - 838 987 1,199 1,219 1,693 1,902 2,113 º Bingley - - - - - 4,100 4,782 | 6,176 8,036 10,157 - 13,437 13,254 - 15,378 – 18,479 24,002 — 30,010 --- 85,947 45,913 44,877 Thornton # - - - - 1,854 2,262 3,075 4,476 5,091 6,038 5,720 Clayton - - - - - 2,040 2,469 3,609 4,469 4,347 5,052 5,655 5 Allerton - - - - - 809 | 1,093 1,488 1,733 1,914 2,041 2,014 ‘ā Horton - - - - - || 3,459 ºš | 7,192 10,782 17,615 28,143 30,189 7 | Bowling - - - - - 2,055 2,226 3,579 5,958 8,918 13,538 14,494 3 Bierley - - - - - 1,273 1,588 2,023 | 2,418 3,171 3,903 4,167 * Manningham - - - || 4,552 532 824 1,118 1,874 3,201 4,296 3 Bradfor - - - - 6,39: 7,767 13,064 23,223 34,560 52,493 48,646 2, Heaton - - - - - 951 ióss 1,217 1,452 1,573 1,637 1,673 Manningham # - - - 904 1,064 1,648 2,376 3,748 6,403 8,693 Bolton - - - - - 474 581 634 671 683 874 937 - 20,664 25,093 — 38,353 — 58,746 -- 83,494 -——|123,323 — 126,484 Shipley - - - - - | 1,008 1,214 1,606 1,926 248 3,272 7,100 Baildon - - - - - 1,719 2,073 2,679 3,044 3,280 3,008 3,895 Hawksworth - - - - 227 582 323 327 339 295 237 Esholt - - - - - 268 - 355 404 443 397 369 # Guisely - - - - - 825 959 1,213 1,604 1,971 2,572 2,566 ‘E | Idle - - - - - - 3,398 3,882 4,666 5,416 6,212 7,118 9,155 # Eccleshill - - - - 1,351 1,608 2,176 2,570 1,308 3,700 4,482 E Carlton - - - - - 57 67 79 91 102 92 96 * Yeadon - - - - - 1,695 1,954 2,455 2,761 3,379 4,109 4,259 c Rawden - - - - - 1,115 1,450 1,759 2,057 | 2,531 2,567 2,576 2, Horsforth - - - - 2,099 2,315 2,824 3,425 4,188 4,584 5,281 Calverley-with-Farsley - - 1,127 1,296 2,605 2,637 4,142 4,892 5,559 Bramley # - - - - 1,920 2,613 3,693 5,279 | 6,656 6,712 6,518 Armley # - - - - 2,019 2,193 3,204 3,869 4,257 4,642 5,050 Headingley-with-Burley # - 984 1,251 1,614 2,887 3,576 4,579 7,255 --- 19,812 – 23,457 31,251 38,297 —-- 46,497 52.539 64,398 +3 Bramley 3 - - - - 640 871 1,230 1,760 2,219 2,237 2,172 .S. Armley + - - - - - 674 735 1,068 1,290 1,419 1,548 1,683 5 | Pudsey - - - - - || 4,422 4,697 6,229 7,460 10,002 11,603 12,912 .2 Tong - - - - - 1,336 1,505 1,893 2,067 2,515 2,797 3,035 ſº Driglington - - - - | 1,232 1,365 1,719 1,676 2,046 2,740 4,274 º: Gildersome - - - - 1,232 1,409 1,592 1,652 1,917 2,126 2,701 £ Morley, - - - - - 2,108 2,500 3,031 3,819 4,087 4,821 6,840 = | Churwell - - - - 502 666 814 1,023 1,998 1,103 1,564 T Beeston - - - - - 1,427 1,062 1,670 2,128 2,175 1,973 2,547 - Farnley - - - - - 94 1,164 1,320 1,591 1,530 1,722 3,064 * | Wortley - - - - - 1,995 2,336 3,179 5,944 7,090 7,896 12,058 .2 Holbeck - - - - - - 4,196 5,124 7,151 11,210 13,346 14,152 15,824 * | Leeds, South Ward 3 - - || 2:17s 2,844 4,125 4,912 4,658 5,008 5, —— 22,885 ––– 26,278 35,033 46,532 —---— 54,202 59,726 —— 74,037 is ºr West Ward - - - 14,954 18,158 22,825 tº 3.3 ºr Kirkgate Ward - || 3 N 3,070 3,003 2,779 2.É Miñºward”. . . ; - 5,222 5,414 5,312 2. – F + South Ward - - || - 1,552 1,669 1,788 # Hunslet - - - 5,284 6,489 8,588 ––––----—————— -- -- -- — 30,082 — 34,733 41,292 * Headingley-cum-Burley - \ 1,192 1,526 2,418 # º: - - - - () * Bramhope - - - - c + 87 98 78 # # Addle-cum-Eccup - - º ; 394 341 401 º * Alwoodley - - - - } = 3. 85 82 70 º Chapeltown - - - - $3. | 2,580 2,842 3,083 3, Potternewton - - - a; | * * -k *k 1,241 1,385 1,878 3: an — 36,677 – 42,560 -- 56,119 —– 88,125 - ; : N.W. Ward - -} + || 8,489 9,816 13,249 # & N.E. Ward - - 3 J 1,815 2,159 2,658 Q H º # N.W. Ward - -Y : 2,122 2,454 3,312 c & Nººd - - || 4 || > || 16,328 19,435 23,924 2. North Ward - - - || 3 || 3 3. 13,000 - 14,454 14,55 East.War...; - - | 3 ||3.3 15,530 17,421 18,954 * West Ward - - * : - 1,661 2,018 2,536 1's Kirkgate Ward - an 340 334 309 No. 9. Hunslet Beck -- –– – ——- 64,967 74,458 87,520 O. 9. ":º below º 2 10,568 10,568 12,977 12,977 17,175 17,175 Total - - 128,979 151,866 * ** --|348,820 - 427,944 479,409 - * Leeds cannot very conveniently be subdivided for these periods. The census for 1841 was made out according to the new arrangement of the town into wards for municipal purposes, and the boundaries of these wards do not coincide with the older divisions of the town. Leeds, November 1866. - (Signed) J. W. LEATHER, - Q q 4 É i i ExHIBITING the POPUſ, TABLE No. 2.-(Referred to supra Question 10,039.) STATISTICs of the RIVER AIRE and its TRIBUTARIES. Arros of the VALLEx of the AIRE from its Source down to and including the Town of Leeds and its Suburbs at the several periods at which the Census has been taken from 1801 to 1861 both inclusive; showing also the Rate of Increase of the Population in each of the decimal periods—1801 to 1811; 1811 to 1821 ; 1821 to 1831 ; 1831 to 1841; 1841 to 1851; and 1851 to 1861. Increase - Increase - Increase - Increase - Increase - Increase - Population per cent. | Population per cent. | Population per cent. Population per cent. Population per cent. Population per cent. Population Districts. in between 111 between 111 between 111 between 111 between 1n between iil Rate of Increase. 1801. 1801 and 1811. 1811 and 1821. 1821 and 1831. 1831 and 1841. 1841 and 1851. 1851 and 1831. 1811. 1821. 1831. 1841. 1851. 1861. *Yº to the west end of **) 69,417 - 83,028 -- 112,490 - 148,599 - 189,001 - 246,050 - 259,385 - Valley of the Pudsey and Holbeck. Beck, 16,511 - 18,310 - 23,757 - 30,410 - 36,198 - 40,566 - 52,850 - down to, but exclusive of Holbeck - Valley of the Addle Beck, including Chapel Allerton, and Potternewton, but exclu- 2,387 - 3,060 - 3,047 - 4,361 - 5,682 - 6,367 - 8,024 - sive of any part of the Township of ſ * > Leeds - - - - !] Times. ſl: 65 in 20 years. Total of the Valley of the Aire down to - | 2° 21 x 30 , Leeds, but exclusive of Leeds, Holbeck, 88,315 18" 21 104,398 33-83 139,717 31 - 25 183,370 25 - 91 230,881 26 89 292,983 9 - 31 320,259 - 2' 61 ., 40 , and Hunslet - - - - J - | 3: 32 , 50 . | 3: 63 , 60 , | ſ1' 58 in 20 years. 2° 33 -> 30 * > Township of Leeds - - - 30,669 17 - 22 35,951 35 - 19 48,603 47 ° 32 71,602 23 ° 95 88,741 14 ° 20 101,343 16' 00 117,563 - 2'90 , 40 , - | 3' 30 , 50 ,, U3-83 • 60 , - - - ſ1' 33 in 20 years. - | 2' 33 , 30 × Township of Holbeck and Hunslet - - 9,995 15- 23 11,517 33° 04 15,322 52° 08 23,284 25° 40 29,198 15 - 14 33,618 23 - 70 41,587 |{ 2'92 , 40 , | 3:36 , 50 , U4-16 , 60 , ſ: '57 in 20 years. | 2:33 , 30 , , Leeds, Holbeck, and Hunslet - - 40,664 16 - 7.3 47,468 34" 66 63,925 48° 43 94,886 24°30 117,939 14'43 134,961 17'92 159,150 - 2 89 a 40 , | 3: 32 , 50 . L3’94 , 60 . ſ 1 - 58 in 20 years. | riv ------ - - - | 2: 15 , 30 , Tºlº ºf including] lesbro 17:52 151,866 34' 09 || 203,642 36.64 278,256 25-36 348,820 22' 68 ; 427,944 12:02 479,407 || 3.70 to . varº --> - | 3° 32 , 50 y | 3: 70 , 60 , (Signed) J. W. LEATHER, Leeds, November 1866. i : i TABLE No. 3.−(Referred to supra Question 10,063.) STATISTICs of the RIVER AIRE and its TRIBUTARIES. - - º * º - - - - - - - ---- - - - ri 1. - - - - * Exiiibºring the Area of Surface drained by the Rive: AIRE at several points of its course down to and including the Town of Leeds and its Suburbs ; the Amount of Population : residing on such Surface, and the Average Number of Individuals per Acre in the year 1861. Pudsey or Holbeck Beck, and the Addle Beck. Population of each No. of - District. District *º" | " - Tº Remarks - ints istria: - in A CreS. - - º Description of District. Acres. Total No. of Individuals | Total No. of Individuals Persons. per Acre. | Persons. per Acre. --- - - 1 Skipton district, including Skipton and all places draining into the river 65,000 12,733 - 65,000 12,733 0 - 196 above Skipton. 2 District above Keighley, between Skipton and Keighley - - 27,500 10,893 - 92,500 23,626 0 - 255 3 Bingley and Keighiey district, including Keighley and Bingley, and all 39,700 44,877 - 132,200 68,503 0. 518 places draining into the river above the point where it receives the waters of the Bradford Beck. 4. Bradford Beck district, including Bradford town - - - 13,100 126,484 * {, , ) 145,300 194,917 1 * 342 Bradford Beck, immdiately below Bradford town. 11,000 acres. 115,181 persons. 16’ 471 indi- - viduals per aere. 5 Kirkstall district, comprising all places which drain into the river between 25,000 64,398 - 170,300 259,385 1 * 523 Bradford Beck and the west end of the town of Leeds. 6 Holbeck Beck district, including Holbeck and part of the south ward of 16,000 74,037 4 - 627 186,300 333,422 1 - 790 This beck, before entering Holbeck, that is ex- - the town of Leeds. cluding Holbeck and South Ward, drains 15,600 acres, having a population of 52,850 persons, or 3: 388 individuals per acre. riºt. -- * ~ *1. + 7 Part of the Township of Leeds on the south side of the river (700 acres) 900 41,292 - 187,200 374,714 2 : 002 N.B.-This includes part of Hunslet. not drained by means of the Addle Beek, and lands on the south side of the river, between Leeds Bridge and the point opposite to which - the Addle Beck enters the river (200 acres). - - - - - - 8 District of the Addle Beck, including part of the town of Leeds -- 9,500 87,520 9 -213 196,700 462,234 2 - 350 Addle Beck, when it reaches Sheepscar Bridge, is - | the drain for 9,000 acres, having a population 3 | Hunslet Beck District, below Leeds - - - - - 2,700 17, 175 - 199,400 479,409 2 * 404 of 23,931 persons, or 2.659 individuals per acre, of whom two-thirds are within the town- - - - - Total - - - - - - 199,400 479,409 2 * 404 ship of Leeds. Total Population. Exhibiting also the same particulars as respects its Tributaries, the Bradford Beck, the (Signed) J. W. LEATHER, Leeds, November 1866. RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD. Mr. J. W. Leather. 14 Nov. 1866. Mr. S. Blamires. - TABLE No. 4.—(Referred to supra Question 10,096.) STATIstics of the CALDER WALLEY, exhibiting the Area of Surface drained by the River Calder at several Points from its Source above Todmorden down to its Confluence with the River Aire at Castleford; the Amount of Population residing on such Surface; and the Average Number of Inhabitants per Acre in 1851 and 1861; exhibiting also the same Particulars in respect of its Tributaries the Hebble Brook, which receives the Sewage of Halifax, and the River Colne, which receives the Sewage of Huddersfield. Population of each Population of each Total Population Total Population Number of Area of District in 1851. District in 1861. in 1851. in 1861. District Description of each, |_| Total || |_ on the District. District. - - - Area in - - Map. | * persons, Individuals persons, Individuals Acres. | Total Individuals | Total Individuals ersons: per Acre. ‘ per Acre. rº. per Acre. Persons. per Acre. | 1 Upper (or Todmorden) istrict down to con- fluence of the Hebble - Brook (from Halifax) 68,940 61,383 0-890 63,465 ()'920 68,940 61,383 0-890 63,465 0-920 2 Hebble Brook (Halifax) 7,100 48,924 6'890 51,488 7-251 76,040 110,307 1° 450 114,953 1-511 3 District between Hebble Brook and River Colne (Huddersfield) - - 20,000 36,463 1°823 40,097 2°005 96,040 146,770 1°528 155,050 1*614 4. River Colne to and in- cluding Huddersfield 44,800 86,013 1'919 93,100 2°078 140,840 || 232,788 1-652 248,150 1:761 4a River Colne below Hud- dersfield - - - 18,000 28,340 1°574 29,240 1’ (324. 158,840 261,123 1*643 277,390 1°745 5 District from River Coln to pumping station of akefield waterworks near Stanley Ferry - 82,610 117,148 1°418 141,316 1:710 241,450 378,271 1°566 418,706 1-734 6 District below Wakefield pumping station to confluence with the - River Aire - - - 12,400 9,719 | 0.783 14,211 1°147 253,850 387,990 1° 528 432,917 1:705 - — Total - - -25sº asſºo 1-52s 432,917 1705 – - - | - - - - TABLE NO. 5. TABLE No. 6. TABLE showing the Falls of the several Weirs on the River Aire, from the King's Mill Weir at Leeds to the King's Mills Weir at Knottingley. GREAT or UPPER WEIR of THE KING’s MILLs AT LEEDs. Feet. Zero. Fall º weir Highest flood at Leeds - - • 33 above 5:00 Crown of weir, or head level of Leeds old water- works engine - 5:00 below 4 - 20 LEEDs. . . Nether Mills weir 8. §§ below 4 - 38 Hunslet Mills weir { {..., #. º: } below 4 - 08 - Knostrop Mills weir !. | - ; below 4 * 42 Thwaites Millweir ſº...] below 592 Thorpe Mill weir [...}|below 12-63 Fleet Mills weir [...}}}|below 595 R. - Methley weir {...}} below 5-97 Castleford weir 3. º ... below 7:20 Knottingley weir Deals 58 ‘80 - - (King's Mills) |l Crown 59.75 - 59.75 * The Great or upper weir of the King's Mills at Leeds is about 87% feet above Ordnance Datum, or the mean level of the sea. THE PRIVILEGE of the Soke or King's Mills at Leeds, enjoyed by Charter from Charles the First, was extinguished by the Act of Parliament, 2nd Vict. c. 17. [14th May 1839.] 13,000l. was agreed to be paid to the owner by four annual instalments. Trustees were appointed, who (by s. 35) were empowered to levy a rate, called the “Soke Rate,” not to exceed 3s. in the pound on all premises used or occupied as maltkilns, or malthouses, or common breweries, and upon all hotels, taverns, and licensed public-houses, &c., where the occu- piers brew their own ale or beer. ls. 3d. in the pound upon all other hotels, taverns, licensed public-houses, and beer-shops. 4%d. in the pound on all premises consisting of a dwelling house and shop, or warehouse connected together, and rated to the relief of the poor at 10l. or upwards. 6d. in the pound on all dwelling houses not connected with a shop or warehouse, and rated to the relief of the poor at 10l. or upwards. Half the above to be paid by the owner and half by the occupier, and 1%d. in the pound on all other rateable pro- perty, to be wholly paid by the owner. With a proviso that no hotel, tavern, or other licensed public-house should be assessed on a higher rental than 120l. per annum, though the same may be rated at a higher sum to the relief of the poor. (Signed) J. W. LEATHER, Leeds, November 1866. Mr. SAMUEL BLAMIREs 10,232. (Chairman.) You are a soap manufacturer 2 —Yes. 10,233. Where are your works situated 2–In Sedg- wick Street. 10,234. Near to Bradford beck —No, some distance off. 10,235. What number of men do you employ — Seven. 10,236. What weight of soap do you make per annum ?–Rather over 500 tons. (Bradford) examined. 10,237. (Professor Way.) Is it principally made from tallow 2–Oil and tallow. 10,238. Is any resin used ?–None whatever. 10,239. In making the soap do you make your own caustic alkali 2–Yes. 10.240. What becomes of the lime which you use 2 —It is carted away for building brick kilns. 10,241. It is a cheaper sort of lime?—Yes. 10,242. It is used for sticking rough structures RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 315 together ?–Yes, and for preventing bricks from burn. ing as well. 10,243. When you are causticising your soda you have two products of deposit, namely, the lime which you speak of and the caustic soda 2–It is all potash soap, soft soap. 10,244. Do you make it especially for the manu- facturers of Bradford *—Entirely so. 10,245. Not for house consumption ?–No, except that a few people may buy a small quantity; such as the neighbours. 10,246. It is principally for the woollen trade – Entirely so. - 10,247. Do you separate your soap after boiling 2– No separation whatever takes place in soft soap. 10,248. It is boiled down in a much smaller quan- tity of water than ordinary soap 2–It is necessary in making hard soap to separate the sweet principle, the glycerine, from the soap. In our case there is nothing of the sort ; the sweet principle is contained in the soft soap, and consequently it gets the name of sweet soap. 10,249. You take a certain quantity of tallow and oil –Yes. 10,250. Is the alkali which you use a strong solution ?—Yes. 10,251. Does the water of that alkali all go into the soap –Yes, all, except what is evaporated in the act of boiling. 10,252. You use as small a quantity of water as you can P-Yes. 10,253. And the whole product of the soap pan is soft soap –Yes; there is no waste whatever. 10,254. You have nothing running from your pans? —Nothing whatever. 10,255. You run no liquid away ?—No, we should fill the drains if we did. 10,256. Then, so far as your manufacture of soap is concerned, you are not a polluter of the river in any shape or form 2–Not in the slightest degree. 10,257. (Chairman.) Do you know the state of the Bradford beck 2–Yes, I know that it is in a very filthy state. 10,258. Have you formed any conclusions as to what ought to be done to purify it 2–With regard to the sewage, I think that it is possible to pump the sewage from the outlet in dry seasons, not in flood time, into large tanks or cisterns, and by means of adding lime, that you might be able to cause a sediment to settle pretty quickly, and to allow the clear water to run away into the beck, though it would not be clean water; by that means you would utilize the refuse. 10,259. Do you think that it is necessary to deal with the rivers in some way, in order to prevent their further pollution 2–I think that it is very desirable. 10,260. And to improve them, if possible?—Yes. 10,261. For the trade of the district –For the trade of the district, and for the health of the town. In summer time the beck is very bad. The witness withdrew. Mr. FREDERICK WILLIAM ANDERTON (Bradford) examined. 10,262. (Chairman.) You are aworsted spinner – Yes. 10,263. Where are your works situated 2–In Leeds Road. 10,264. Are they near the beck or near the canal * —They are within a quarter of a mile of the canal. 10,265. But they are not situated upon either ?– No. 10,266. Have you a main sewer coming up to your works, or near your works –Yes; there is a beck which runs from Bowling. 10,267. You are upon a branch of the beck – Yes. 10,268. What number of hands do you employ — About 800. 10,269. What weight of water do you deal with per annum ?—We wash about 120 packs of wool a week. 10,270. What weight of soap do you use annually * —We use, I suppose, about 12 packs of solid soap per week. 10,271. And what quantity of oil?—We use oil merely for the purpose of lubricating the machinery. 10,272. You do not use it in the treatment of the fibre 2–Yes; it is used in the process of combing. 10,273. Does any of it pass away with the soap water P-Yes, some of it is washed out. 10,274. Is your soap refuse treated so as to extract the oil and grease?—Yes, it is treated on our own premises, which we let to certain parties who conduct the work. 10,275. What are you paid for the material which they get out 2–They pay us a certain sum, but we have to direct the application of steam. 10,276. What weight of material do they recover ? —I am not aware, for it is entirely under their charge; we have power to interfere, but we do not interfere. They pay us according to the quantity of soap which we consume per week. - 10,277. What is that proportion ?–It is about 5s. on a pack of soap. We find steam and certain things, which brings down the cost. 10,278. It has not occurred to you to attempt to treat the soap refuse yourselves?—No ; we think that they are better enabled to do it; they do it for other firms as well. - - - - 10,279. When they have treated the waste water, where does it go 2–Into the beck which runs from Bowling, and which flows into the Bradford beck. 10,280. Have you noticed whether that water is very dirty, or is comparatively clear –It is quite clear so far as the eye is concerned, but of course it is mixed with vitriol; they extract the grease from the soapsud with vitriol. 10,281. Have you waterclosets, or privies, for the people upon your premises —We have both. 10,282. Where do the waterclosets empty —Into the beck. - 10,283. What do you do with the refuse which is collected in the privies 2–We have 22 privies which flow into the beck, and four from which the refuse is carted away for manure. 10,284. Would it be very difficult for you to arrange that the refuse from all should be carted away?—No, if we could get people to take it away; but with the four privies which we have, there is the greatest diffi- culty in the world to get anybody to cart the refuse a Way. ºss. But you could so arrange your privies that the produce might be carted away, if you could find a sale for it?–Possibly so, but it would have to be conveyed a little distance from the works. 10,286. Do you use engine power P-Yes. 10,287. What amount of power do you use on the works P-About 400 horse. 10,288. What weight of coal per annum do you use 2 —About 48 to 50 tons per week, or 2,600 tons per a111111101. 10,289. What becomes of the ashes?—They are carted away. 10,290. Have you to pay for their being carted away ?—Sometimes we have; but now that building is going on, parties are glad to take them away. 10,291. You get rid of them without any difficulty 2 —Yes. 10,292. Are any of them at any time thrown into the beck —No, not at all. 10,293. Do you pass any solids into the beck – No, with the exception of the produce from the privies. 10,294. Do you use much water in your processes? BRADFORD. Mr. S. Blamires. 14 Nov. 1866. Mr. F. W. Anderton. --- R. p 2 316 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD. Mr. F. W. Anderton. 14 Nov. 1866. M7°. W. B. Hamilton. —Yes; I should think that we use about 18,000 gallons per day. 10,295. Where do you get it from 2–We pump it all from two wells. 10,296. What depth are they —One is 80 yards, and the other is 50 yards. 10,297. What is the quality of the water —It is very soft. 10,298. Is it alkaline —There is magnesian lime in it. 10,299. That will not make soft water —It is very soft in the boilers; there is a deposit as fine as powder. 10,300. Have you had any analysis of it?—I think not. 10,301. Do you take any water from the corpora- tion?—No, except for the offices for washing hands and domestic purposes, and stables, and for similar purposes. 10,302. In what state in your opinion is Bradford beck 2–I think that it is about as bad as it can be. 10,303. And Bradford canal?—It could not be worse, I should say. 10,304. In your opinion is it necessary that some- thing should be done to improve the state of the beck, and the canal, if possible —I decidedly think so ; in fact, those who live anywhere near will have to remove from the town unless something is done, they cannot possibly continue to live there. I live within a quarter of a mile of the canal which flows in the valley, and during the summer months we are obliged to be away. 10,305. On account of the smell ?—Yes. 10,306. Does it cause sickness to yourself or to any of your household –It causes sickness to our- selves, and the gardener says, that he has frequently been sick upon the ground while gardening, and the servants in the house complain of it; in fact, the smell gets into our rooms; we have been obliged to go from the rooms facing the canal. 10,307. Did you join the other gentlemen in indict- ing the proprietors of that canal?–Yes; it was a matter of self defence. I may state that one night we had an escape of gas in one of the bed rooms, at about 12 o'clock at night. We opened the windows to let it out, and the stench from outside was so intolerable, that we shut down the windows, and preferred having the gas to having the stench from the canal. 10,308. (Mr. Harrison.) What wool do you use; is it British wool?—We use both English and foreign wool. 10,309. In what proportion ?—I do not know ; it varies with the trade; I can hardly tell. 10,310. Do you find a great deal of difference in the quantity of refuse from foreign wool as compared with British –There are what are called white wools and greasy wools, and from the one the refuse is three times as great as from the other. 10,311. Is the quantity of soap which you require to use in the one case very different from that which you require in the other ?—No, the greasy wools, as a rule, do not require so much soap as the white wools. 10,312. What wools do you call greasy 2–Scotch wools we call greasy, Highland wools; those are unwashed wools. 10,313. Do they not generally wash Highland wool —No. 10,314. (Professor Way.) You have said that you use 12 packs of soap per week 2–Yes. 10,315. That would be about a ton and a half?— Yes. 10,316. Is that soft soap *-—Yes. 10,317. What is the cost per pack — 78s. per pack. 10,318. Is soft soap necessary for you ; cannot you deal with soda soap 2–Soft soap is used for washing mercantile wools to a great extent. 10,319. The essential difference between soft soap and other soap is, that one contains soda and the other potash; is not that so *—It is the alkali which they mix with it which washes the wool. 10,320. Is not it exceedingly costly as compared with soda 2–I do not think that soda would be sufficiently strong for our purpose; it would not be sufficiently searching for the wool. 10,321. Is there more of the alkaline in soft soap * —I should think so. 10,322. If you took ordinary soap and used caustic alkali, do you think that you would get the same result, or would you injure the wool —One is very particular not to alter much in these matters, if you find a thing test well and not affect your spinning. As a rule you do not wish to use more than a certain quantity of alkali, otherwise you would injure the wool. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM B. HAMILTON (Bradford) examined. 10,323. (Chairman.) You are engaged in grease manufacture ?—I am. 10,324. You take soap washings from manufacturers and extract grease from them —I do. 10,325. Where are your works situated –In Canal Road. 10,326. What number of men do you employ — Between 8 and 10. 10,327. What weight of grease do you get per week 2–Between three and four tons a week. 10,328. Are you constantly employed?—Yes. 10,329. (Professor Way.) I suppose that there is no great difference in the mode of treating soapsuds? —No. 10,330. Do you treat them with sulphuric acid – Yes. 10,331. Can you give an idea of the quantity which you use per thousand gallons of soapsuds?—No, I never measured the quantity of suds which each tank takes. 10,332. But still you do add a given amount of acid to a tank 2–We use about half a carboy to a tank, which will contain about 20 tons of sud water. 10,333. That is half a carboy of brown acid –It will be about 80 pounds of sulphuric acid. 10,334. Of brown acid –Yes. 10,335. Is the water which you treat the whole of the soapsuds, or only the richest portion of them 2– It is generally the richest portion of the soap suds. The solid matter is generally collected in sumpt holes, and farmers put it on the land for manure. 10,336. Do you take the whole of the soapsuds and the wash water to extract the soap, or only the first runnings 2–I take the whole of them. 10,337. You have your works put up in the mill ard 2–Yes. 10,338. And all the wash water goes into your tanks —Yes. 10,339. You do not exercise any check upon the time when it passes or ceases to pass into your tank : —No. 10,340. It all goes through —Yes. 10,341. In what state does the water go out after you have treated it 2–Nearly bright. 10,342. Is it milky —Sometimes it is and some- times it is not. 10,343. Have you reason to believe that you get the whole of the grease out of it?—Yes, I generally take good care of that. 10,344. Have you ever ascertained the quantity of grease which is in it 2–As nearly as I possibly can. For instance, in very windy weather there is very great difficulty in getting the tanks to settle, and that is the only difficulty which I have, but in calm weather we get all the solid out. 10,345. Were you present when Mr. Anderton gave his evidence 2–Yes. 10,346. Did you hear him say that he uses 12 packs of soap per week –Yes. 10,347. That is to say, a little less than a ton and a half of soft soap –Yes. 10,348. And he receives 5s. per pack —Yes. RIVERS COMMISSION 317 :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 10,349. Do you work Mr. Anderton's soapsuds?— No. 10,350. Is that the usual price?—Mr. Anderton has to find steam and other implements for the manu- facture of the grease on his premises. I generally take all the soap water from the manufacturer, and find everything myself, and consequently I get the water a trifle cheaper. - 10,351. The question is, what quantity of grease, is actually used and what quantity is recovered; would half of that ton and a half be grease ?—No, the wool generally takes the greatest portion of the virtue out of the soap. I should say that about a quarter of the amount, or perhaps about 15 cwt. of grease, would be produced out of 12 packs of soap. 10,352. Would the soap, or the grease of the soap, remain in the wool 2–No, simply the oil which they use in the manufacture of the soap. 10,353. Supposing that you wash wool, which is greasy, with soap, what is the result –The grease goes along with the soap. 10,354. And it will be in the water —Yes. 10,355. Then whatever quantity of grease has been used in the shape of soap, would be found in the soap- suds, even with an addition from the natural grease of the wool, would it not ?–It would. 10,356. Then why is there this enormous dis- crepancy between the quantity recovered and the quantity used in the shape of soap –A great portion of the grease comes out in the pressing in the shape of a cake, something like the pressing of oilcake, that is another refuse. 10,357. You cannot get out the whole of the grease ?—No, it is pressed through canvass. 10,358. Is it not worth getting out?–No. 10,359. Is that burnt?—No, the farmers buy it. I sell it to manure manufacturers, and also to farmers themselves. I sell about 300 tons per annum. Some five years ago the whole of the suds used to go into the beck. 10,360. They find it very good for turnips ?—They do. 10,361. So that it is not lost 2–It is not lost. 10,362. Do you think that the grease recovered would pay for a better purification of the soapsuds than is now accomplished 2–I do not. 10,363. You mean to say that at this moment as much money is spent upon it as can be 2–Yes. 10,364. Do you not use bags in the presses 2– Yes. 10,365. And those presses are heated with steam P —Yes. 10,366. Is it double case ?—No, single case. 10,367. The steam actually goes into them — Yes. 10,368. Do the canvass bags last long —They last for from five to six months. 10,369. Are they used several times in a day ?— Yes, they are used every day; in and out of the presses they are used all day long. 10,370. Is it the friction or the nature of the liquid which destroys them 2–I should say that it is the constant doubling up ; the steam, too, will rot them. 10,371. The liquid, of course, is acid –There is a little acid in, but it is very trifling. 10,372. I may assume that you get as much service out of these soap suds as is to be obtained from them? —I do. The witness withdrew. Mr. ALFRED ILLING worth (Bradford) examined. 10,373. (Chairman.) You are a member of the firm of Daniel Illingworth and Sons, of Bradford *—Yes. 10,374. What manufacture do you carry on 2–We are spinners. 10,375. Where are your Thornton Road. 10,376. Are you upon any branch or arm of any of the becks —We do not avail ourselves in any way of them. 10,377. Are you near a branch of the beck —No, we are at some distance from it. We do not depend upon it in any way for washing or condensing purposes. 10,378. What number of hands do you employ — From 500 to 600. 10,379. What amount of engine power do you use * —A pair of 50-horse engines. 10,380. What weight of coal do you burn ?–From 40 to 50 tons per week; it is variable. 10,381. What becomes of the ashes?—They are carried from the premises, and are disposed of for road making. 10,382. They do not go into the stream —No, they are mixed to some extent with material. 10,383. Do you use much water upon your premises? —Yes. 10,384. What quantity of water do you use —About 80,000 gallons a week. 10,385. Where do you obtain it —From a run of water in the land, which we collect into reservoirs, and we use the condensed water from the engines. We have surface condensers, 10,386. Do you use any of the roof water from your premises?—It passes into the reservoir, but it passes through the engines, and we use it as distilled water. 10,387. Do you buy any water from the corpora- tion ?–Not for woolwashing, but for the waterclosets we do. 10,388. You have waterclosets upon the premises * —Yes. 10,389. Exclusively waterclosets?—Yes. 10,390. Where do the contents ºf ºne waterclosets go ?—Into tanks. works situated 2–In 10,391. What becomes of the refuse 2–It is carried away upon the land. N 10,392. You do not pass it into Bradford beck — O. 10,393. Then you do not pollute the beck?—Not at all. 10,394. Do you dye at all?—No. 10,395. What weight of soap do you use per week? —About 10 packs per week, at present. 10,396. What becomes of your suds?—They are passed across to the premises of my relatives, where there is an establishment of Mr. Hamilton's, and they are treated by him. 10,397. Where does the refuse soap water go to ?— Into the drain. 10,398. And ultimately into the Bradford beck 2– Yes. 10,399. So that you pollute that beck, if there is any pollution in the water –Yes. 10,400. What weight of wool do you treat —About 100 packs a week. 10,401. Is there any refuse of any sort from the wool –We have tanks outside the premises into which the soap water passes, and there is a solid deposit. 10,402. Is there any fibrous refuse 2–None what- ever; at least none which we can avoid. 10,403. Have you any idea about what proportion of the grease in the soap used is recovered from the soap suds?—We cannot tell that ; we do not have it under our own management. 10,404. Do you know about what you are paid for the soap water 2–Mr. Hamilton has it at a little under the ordinary price, in consequence of his finding his own apparatus. 10,405. That is the gentleman who preceded you in giving evidence —Yes; he pays a little under 5s, in consequence of our having no further trouble with it. 10,406. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you ever had an opportunity of seeing the water as it passes away ?— No ; I do not happen to have noticed it at all. 10,407. (Professor Way.) What does your soap cost?—About 76s, a pack is the present price. BRADFORD. Mr. W. B. Hamilton. 14 Nov. 1866. Mr. A. Illingworth. R r 3 3.18 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORI). Mr. A. Illingworth. 14 Nov. 1866. H. W. Ripley, Esq. 15 Nov. 1866. 10,408. And you use 10 packs a week?–Yes. 10,409. That is 760s., or 38l. a week?—Yes. 10,410. And you get 5s. a pack for the grease ?— Yes, a little under 5s. 10,411. That is 21. 10s. out of 381.2–Yes; it is, I think, about 7, per cent. 10,412. (Chairman.) Is there anything further which you wish to state —Our old premises were upon one of the polluted streams of the town, and one of the principal inconveniences which we suffered then was from chemicals in the water injuring our boilers. 10,413. I presume that you know the state in which Bradford beck is 2–Yes. 10,414. And the streams and rivers in Yorkshire generally —Yes, to a considerable extent. 10,415. In what state do you say that the beck is? —It is in a very bad state. So far as it is covered over within the town, the nuisance to the town is mitigated. There is one exposed place in Thornton Road, the drainage of which seems to be merely a pool, the run of water being so slight. 10,416. Do you think that it is necessary to take notice of the polluted state of the streams in the dis- trict 2–1 should think so, certainly, if there is a remedy. 10,417. For the purpose of trade itself?—Yes. 10,418. The same water being used by one manu- facturer after another, it would be desirable, if possible, to limit the amount of pollution passed into the stream 2–Yes, our town is so situated that we should want an increased volume of water to a very consider- able extent, before anything could be done. The stream which ran past our old premises had from 15 to 20 mills upon it; in summer time the water was so hot that we could scarcely use it for condensing pur- poses; that was in the early morning, before the full stream was in. 10,419. (Mr. Harrison.) What wools do you use * —Both English and colonial. 10,420. Do you find any difference in the quantity of soap which you require 2–Not to any appreciable extent. English wool varies, and so does colonial. 10,421. (Professor Way.) Something has been said about Highland wool. Do you know of your own knowledge whether there is more grease in the wool of mountain sheep than in other wool; does nature provide a sheep with more grease in the wool in a cold district 2–Yes, but more is put on by the farmer for protection. 10,422. Nature does not do it 2–No. 10,423. Have you heard of the plan of obtaining potash from wool –Yes. 10,424. Did it strike you as a novelty when you first heard of it?—It is done in France. I do not know that it is done in the neighbourhood of Bradford. 10,425. Are you conversant with that process 2– No. Messrs. Isaac Holden and Sons have a wool- combing establishment in France, where it is carried out. 10,426. (Chairman.) And where it is carried out so as to pay 2–Yes, on some classes of wools; greasy wools. 10,427. (Professor Way.) It pays three per cent. upon the weight of the wool?—Yes. 10,428. (Chairman.) Do you know what that wool is ?–It is greasy French wool. 10,429. (Professor Way.) Is that a secretion of the animal’s system; is it natural –It is unques- tionably natural. 10,430. (Chairman.) Is there any place in England that you know of where that potash is recovered?— Not that I am aware of, but there may be. 10,431. Are you aware of any reason why it should not be recovered in England 2–No, excepting that in the worsted districts a much smaller portion of that description of wool is used than in France. 10,432. (Professor Way.) Such a quantity of potash is not common to all wool —Certainly not. - 10,433. Then if it is peculiar to some kind of wool, does not that point out some accidental circumstance 2 —There is naturally a considerable amount of potash in all wool, but most of the wool which comes to these countries is washed; that is the case with the colonial wool. 10,434. Then the potash has been taken out before the wool comes to you ?—Yes. - The witness withdrew Adjourned to to-morrow at 10 o'clock. Bradford, Thursday, 15th November 1866. PRESENT : ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THORNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Professor John THOMAS WAY. HENRY WILLIAM RIPLEY, Esq. (Bradford), examined. 10,435. (Chairman.) Are you president of the Chamber of Commerce for this district 2––Yes. 10,436. You are engaged in the Bradford trade 2– Yes. 10,437. In what department of that trade –I am a stuff-dyer, that is my principal business here. 10,438. You have, I believe, connexion with some other department also –Yes, I have connexion with other branches of the trade. 10,439. How long have you resided near Bradford * —I was born in the borough. 10,440. You remember Bradford and the neighbour- hood since your boyhood, do you ?–Yes. 10,441. And you remember the state of the becks and the river at that time?—Yes, I remember the state of the becks certainly. 10,442. Have you prepared any details as to the growth of the local trade of Bradford and the growth of the population ?–No, I have not attempted to give any actual figures or details, but I can give some general information. 10,443. Do you know how many Chambers of Com- merce there are in Great Britain?—Between 30 and 40 I believe. 10,444. Are they all in communication with each, - - - º other —The greater number of them are. Nearly 30 are in communication with each other. 10,445. You are self-constituted and independent bodies in your own localities?—Yes, but conferring together generally on subjects which are for a common purpose. 10,446. What are supposed to be the duties of your Chamber of Commerce –Primarily it has to attend to the interests of the district, to communicate with Government on any matters that may affect the trade generally having reference to our foreign arrangements, and to negociate with foreign countries through our own Government for the alterations of tariffs where they unfortunately exist. 10,447. In the event of legislation being necessary for prevention of pollution of rivers, would that, in your opinion, be a fit subject for the intervention of your Chamber of Commerce, for instance, to consider any proposed Act of Parliament —I think it would be a very proper question to be submitted for the considera- tion of the Chamber of Commerce. - 10,448. You have not only to compete with the home trade, but you are necessarily brought into competition with foreign trade –From time to time we are very closely indeed. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 319 10,449. I suppose that, communication with foreign countries being so swift and rapid, any serious inter- ference with the English trade might place you at a disadvantage with foreigners ?–As a matter of fact this particular district has lost a great part of one branch of trade in consequence of the close competition with France, but fortunately other branches of trade have sprung up, so that we have not felt it so much as would otherwise have been the case. 10,450. Would you say that in legislating for prevention of pollution of rivers, great consideration should be given to the probable cost that would be thrown upon the English manufacturers ?—I think the whole question should have the most careful con- sideration. While, on the one hand, it is important to prevent pollution, on the other hand the greatest care should be taken not to theorize merely as to the course which is to be adopted for the prevention of that pollu- tion, otherwise what might appear a little matter to parties not engaged in trade might be very serious to the parties themselves, and, in point of fact, it might have the effect of either removing trade from a parti- cular district or from the country, competition being so close in many branches of business. 10,451. Is it within your cognizance, as president of your own chamber of commerce, what would be the gross sum dealt with in trade in your district 2–It is a very difficult thing to give even an approximate estimate of the actual value of the trade of the worsted district for instance, and by the worsted district I mean not merely Bradford, but Halifax, Keighley, Bingley, and the whole of the surrounding neighbourhood where the worsted trade is carried on in contradistinction to the woollen trade which exists at Leeds, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, and Batley. It is impossible to separate the trade of Bradford from the trade of Halifax and adjoining places. 10,452. Suppose you take the woollen trade of Yorkshire, can you give us within half a million the sums that are involved in the woollen manufactures 2 —I should prefer confining my estimate to the worsted trade, leaving the woollen trade out. I do not think I have any data as to the woollen district. Having a pretty intimate knowledge of the capacity of the various dyeing and finishing establishments in the district, I have calculated the quantity of pieces which each is capable of dyeing and finishing and that gives, I believe, very tolerably correct data on which to base the quantity of goods that pass through the merchants’ hands, and the amount at which I so arrive is between 6,000,000 and 7,000,000 pieces of goods annually. The average value of those pieces will I take to be, about 50s. 10,453. What would the length of the pieces be 2– They vary very much in length, from 28 yards to 60 or 70 yards. The great majority of them are of an average length of about 50 yards. 10,454. What is the weight?—The weights vary very much indeed also; but the average weight of the great majority will be from 6 lb. to 7 lb. 10,455. (Mr. Harrison.) A good deal of stuff is sent to Leeds to be dyed, is there not 2–Yes. Taking 6,000,000 to 7,000,000 as the basis, the entire value of those goods would be from 17,000,000l. to 18,000,000/. Then we have an export trade in yarn, amounting to between 5,000,000l. and 6,000,000l. Then we have a trade to Scotland, to Norwich, Manchester, and on a small scale to other parts of the kingdom amount- ing possibly to 3,000,000l. I think I have correct data for making, in round numbers, the value of the trade of the district, of the textile worsted trade, to be about 24,000,000l. or 25,000,000!, per annum. 10,456. (Chairman.) I assume that in all cases where that trade is carried on water is used to a large extent, and a considerable amount of pollution arises from the trade at present?—Water is used in large quantities by the manufacturers. It is used for two operations, to scour the wool and for condensing purposes in the engines. In the one case the water is fouled, and in the other it is merely heated and passed away. 10,457. The question of rivers pollution is intimately connected, is it not, with the expenditure of that vast mass of money annually?—Yes, especially in connexion with the dyers of the district. 10,458. If those annual sums were capitalized what would be the sum ?–500,000,000l. at five per cent, 10,459. Is there land in Yorkshire worth 500,000,000l. including all the rivers ?—If I had the money I do not think I should like to give it for all the land in Yorkshire. The interests at stake are of startiing magnitude, when you look at the question from that point of view. 10,460. The interest engaged in trade are of that magnitude that you think too great attention cannot be given to them —Yes. 10,461. It is a question that requires handling with the greatest care 2–Yes. I believe you would find the greatest willingness on the part of persons engaged in trade generally to listen to every suggestion that might be made, and to do all that was in their power to remove nuisances, but if the time should come when they are interfered with in a way that they think in- jurious to themselves, you will find them rising as one man to protest against the ruin which would be brought upon them. 10,462. Is it your opinion, considering how large the interests are now and how enormous the capital is represented to be, that the business is a growing one * — It is a very rapidly growing business. It may appear from one point of view, looking at the statistics of the Bradford trade, in the decennial period from 1851 to 1861, that there was no large growth in the trade, but no greater mistake can be committed. During that time a transition was taking place in two processes of manufacture. Wool-combing, which had been before that period principally carried on by hand, was during that time, and since, changed to a process of machinery whereby, speaking roundly, six or eight men now do the work of at least 100. By that means during those 10 years the labour of many thousand hands was saved ; during the same period the power- loom also was rapidly undergoing improvement, and those two causes made the district appear almost to have a stationary population, whereas in point of fact the trade of the district, I have no doubt, nearly doubled itself. 10,463. That is in value –Yes. I have no doubt now we are growing in population in consequence of those causes which existed in the period between 1851 and 1861 having ceased to exist, that is, machi- nery has come to a comparative state of perfection. I believe that we are now growing in population very rapidly, indeed almost unprecedentedly. The increase in the export of yarns between 1849 and the last Board of Trade returns is from 1,500,000l. to 5,500,000l. 10,464. May we take it that this trade has concen- trated itself in Yorkshire partly in consequence of the water, and partly in consequence of the facility for obtaining coal?—It cannot have concentrated itself in Bradford in consequence of the water. It probably has concentrated itself in Bradford from two causes— one is, the cheapness of fuel, and the other is the superior energy of its inhabitants during the last 40 or 50 years; then the worsted trade was located principally at Wakefield and at Leeds. Wakefield appeared at that time as if it was to be the seat of the worsted manufacture, but the trade transferred itself here at a time when we really had no very large sup- plies of water, except what we obtained at some con- siderable cost from underground sinkings and borings. 10,465. You are the principal stuff dyers ?–Yes. 10,466. You are, I believe, the owner of a number of mills 2–Yes, I am. 10,467. What number of hands do you employ — Between 500 and 600; they are principally men. 10,468. What amount of material do you get through in a year in pieces –- In number between 700,000 and 800,000. The average weight is about 84 lbs. I may state that the goods which pass through our hands are of a class somewhat better than those which pass through many other dyers' bands, and our average weight is higher, I have no doubt, on that account. - BRADFORD, H. W. Ripley, Esq. 15 Nov. 1866. R p 4 320 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD. - H. W. Ripley, Esq. 15 Nov. 1866. 10,469. You carry on, I suppose, about one-tenth of the whole business —Quite, and perhaps rather more. 10,470. What number of pieces do you dye 2– About 500,000 of the 800,000 are dyed, and between 200,000 and 300,000 are finished. 10,471. What is done with the refuse from the dye vats —The refuse from the dye vats is passed in our case into subsiding tanks or ponds in order to separate the solid matter from the liquid. Having a num- ber of mills of my own, and there being also a number of mills lower down on the Bowling beck, which are sometimes short of water, I have made arrangements to supply them with water for con- densing purposes by means of pipes laid along the railway. Our works are situated on Bowling beck, a mile from the centre of the town. On the course of that beck mills have been erected from time to time during the last 30 years, without any means whatever for a water supply, and for many months in the year, as the Bowling beck above our works in a dry season for months continuously is only an imaginary stream there is no water whatever. When there is any water we have reservoirs in which we have always, in my recollection, intercepted the water and used it at our own works; but the whole quantity of that water for many months is so small that the mills below have really a very precarious source of supply. That led to litigation some years ago between the mill owners, and ultimately I agreed to construct sub- siding dams to separate the solid matter from the dye water, and then to pass the water down to those mills; they used it for condensing purposes, and then passed it again into the beck. Our source of water supply at our own works is twofold. We pump from some old colliery workings, which ex- tend under many hundred acres in that district, from 1,000,000 to 1,200,000 gallons a day of hard water, which contains a large quantity of sulphate and carbo- nate of lime, but it is very good water for washing and many dyeing purposes. We also pump from the flagstone, which underlies the coal 50 or 60 yards, constantly about 600,000 gallons a day of pure soft water, which is perfectly free from any hardness whatever. That water is used in our own works for scouring purposes. Then by a system of pipes I supply a considerable number of mills with water for scouring their wool, the water being softer than any other that they can get, and I also supply a large number of dwelling houses. Half a million of gallons of pure soft water are used daily in that way; the mills down the stream are supplied from those sub- siding dams before named with water; it answers their purpose for the boilers better than the natural water of the stream. The combinations which take place in our dyeing processes make the water in such a state that it keeps the boilers free from incrustation, which is not the case with the water in its ordinary state ; and the millowners are thankful to have this water as we send it to them. With regard to the refuse, these subsiding dams have been made to a certain extent for my own convenience as well as for the con- venience of the other mills, and I consult my own convenience in discharging the refuse. Generally the contents of one subsiding tank are discharged into the stream on a Saturday afternoon when the mills are standing. 10,472. In pumping this water you have a pretty fair chance of ascertaining whether it varies in volume at any particular time of the year, or from year to year. Do you find any variation in it —The water from the old colliery workings varies very much in quantity according to whether it is a wet or a dry season; but the area is so large from which we pump, that even in the driest season which ſever knew (the summer before last), when we pumped the water down so that we could get into the old colliery workings, still we had sufficient. 10,473. You lower the head of the water, but do not exhaust the source —There is a kind of under- ground reservoir; we exhausted it last summer; we pumped it nearly dry; we were nearer aground for a few weeks during the summer of 1865 than ever before. As to the soft water which comes from the flagstone, which underlies the coal about 60 yards that is always sufficient in quantity to supply our pumps even night and day, but the level of the water in the pumping apparatus will lower very materially as between one season of the year and another. 10,474. How much does it lower –Fifteen or 20 feet I should say. 10,475. At what time of the year will it be the lowest ?–In ordinary seasons, it will be the lowest in November and December after the summer has passed, and previous to the rains, from which this supply comes by some unknown underground channels. 10,476. When does it get to its maximum ?—By about March or February, and so it will remain ſo May or June without material variation in the level. 10:477. What ingredients do you use in dyeing that would have a softening effect upon water 2. I do not say a softening effect, but a qualifying effect; there are a great variety of ingredients; the great con- sumption is in dyewoods, logwood, peachwood, etc. 10,478. Are there any acids —Yes, we use large quantities of acids, and mordants, in working dye wares generally. 10,479. The acid diluted as it is in the water is found to have a beneficial effect on boilers ?—Yes, the acid becomes neutralized I apprehend in its passage through the various operations; in fact the acid is not used in its natural state. Nitric acid is first made into nitrate of tin ; muriatic acid is made into muriate of iron, etc. If you examine steam boilers that have had this water in them for many years you will find that they are cleaner now than they were previously; naturally there is a certain amount of sediment from the water containing large quantities of lime which adheres to the boiler, and is very diffi- cult to get rid of. 10,480. Do you supply any of that water, or is any used for locomotive purposes?—I did supply the Lan- cashire and Yorkshire Railway for several years with it. We tried experiments with water from the sub- siding dams for their locomotives occasionally, but the tubes of all the locomotives were found to be so fouled with incrustations of lime from, perhaps, the bad water which had been used before that the result was not satisfactory ; but I never had the thing fairly tested. 10,481. They were not new boilers with clean tubes? –No. There is always a small amount of sediment in our dye-water from the subsiding dams, which is used by the mills below. It would be necessary to pass it through some filter in order to separate that sediment. - 10,482. In managing your works what arrange- ments have you made for the soil of the workpeople : have you waterclosets or privies —At all the mills and weaving sheds. I have adopted, with the exception of one that was built 20 years ago, a system of water- closets. 10,483. Where do they empty their contents — The stench from privies in ordinary mills was so excessively offensive that in commencing to build some mills 10 or 12 years ago I adopted a fresh sys- tem, and I put in then, and have done so since, waterclosets, or , rather long troughs. They are filled with water by a ball tap to within four inches of their height, and all the deposits are made into them during the day, and a man goes round at night, draws the valve, and the whole flushes out instantly down a pipe into a subsiding tank in the yard of each of those premises. There is no outlet except at the very top of this tank by means of a drain pipe, which is covered with a fine grating, and the result is that the great mass of solid excrements is retained in the tank, but the liquid passes away into the watercourse beck or stream. 10,484. You do not utilize it for agricultural pur- poses?–Yes, from time to time. I have tenants who sell it if they can. They say that they have to pay something for it to be taken away for agricultural purposes. I believe it to be a valuable manure. RIVERS COMMISSION:–MIN ---> --- . . . ) FNCE. 321 10,485. Have you seen any of the new earth closets 2—I have seen drawings of them. 10,486. Do you ever go to Wakefield –Yes, occasionally. 10,487. I understand that they are going to try the experiment in the basement storey of the prison there 2 —The tank I use produces no nuisance of any kind in the neighbourhood where it is used. You are not conscious of its being there. At intervals of two or three months the solid is taken out, and the tank is emptied. As a question of nuisance, I am convinced that my plan cannot be improved upon, but on the uestion of utility I cannot speak. 10,488. It is a much cleaner and better process than the other, the cesspit and midden process, is it not *— Yes. They were perfectly horrid before. I am going to build about 300 cottages, and I am so satisfied with my plans that I shall adopt the same principle in all of them I do not like to see cottages with nasty privies about them. I am putting a watercloset in each, and shall have an intercepting tank to carry out the same idea. 10,489. Do any of the other manufacturers in this district adopt subsiding dams for their dye refuse?— No, I think not. i0,490. Are the results to you so satisfactory that you think you could recommend other persons to adopt the same means if they had the opportunity ?–If they could utilize the water, or if they had any object in it, I think it is desirable that they should do so. In adopting these subsiding tanks, or ponds, my idea was that the water would take a considerable length of time in depositing all the sclid refuse, and on that account I built at once three tanks, two of them being 120 feet long by 50 or 60 feet wide, and the other 120 feet long by about 40 or 45 feet wide ; but in practice the deposit in the small tank of about 120 feet long by 40 feet wide, with a varying depth of from about seven or eight feet to nine or ten feet, is so rapid that the great mass of solid matter is deposited in the first tank. I am now using the other two ponds or dams as supply reservoirs for the mills, and the first-named answers the purpose for deposit. At present it is not only not an expense but an actual bene- fit, because it supplies the mills below with water. If the dyers had to collect the refuse and dye wares which deposit so rapidly in one of those tanks, a very serious question would arise. What are they to do with it 2 10,491. If the prevention of pollution were made imperative, might not a number of the dyers be com- bined, and be required to pass the refuse water into one common outlet, so that it might be treated in one settling pond?—I think that is quite impossible. Dyeworks generally are so far from each other, and their interests are so different, that disputes would arise if they had subsiding tanks in common. The size of the tank that would be required for very large works for merely depositing the refuse would not in any case be a very serious objection, I think. 10,492. (Professor Way.) Do you use those tanks alternately?—No ; the deposit is so rapid in the tank I mentioned, and it can be flushed into the beck during a half-holiday. Last night I ordered the contents to be slowly let out in order that you might see the state of the collection that has taken place since last Saturday week, the quantity and quality of the sediment. If instead of passing this refuse into the beck or water- course, the sediment was taken out, it would be im- perative them to have two of these tanks to be used alternately. Then the question would arise, having this immense mass of material collecting, what is to be done with it * 10,493. Do you think, that if you were compelled to empty the tanks by hand, and not to pass the con- tents into the beck, liming or any other process could make the refuse useful as a manure ?–From time to time, for the last 12 or 15 years, I have mixed it with lime, and I have mixed it with nightsoil, and applied it to grass land—to arable land, but always with one result ; the land becomes for several years perfectly barren, you could not get a crop off it. 17159.-2, 10,494. It proved in practice to be injurious 2–It proved to be so injurious that I am quite sure, from a BRADFORD. - long course of experience with reference to the refuse H. W. Ripley, from dyeworks, it is not feasible to apply it to land advantageously for any agricultural purposes. 10,495. Supposing you were still compelled to dispose of the refuse without passing it into the river, and to make what is called a spoil bank of it, what area of ground would you have covered, do you think, at your works in the course of 10 years 2–We have done that also for two or three years; arge quantities of our dye wares now are not put into vessels to dye the goods, but the colouring matter is extracted in closed iron or copper vessels, and of course, this has to be taken out under any circumstances, it does not pass away; and for two or three years this refuse, amounting to many hundreds of tons, was put in to one solid heap in the vain hope of its rotting. For a period extending over four or five or six or seven years, I do not think any addition has been made to that heap. During this last summer we dug into it, and found it in the same state in which it was originally heaped up ; that is, the spent wood. 10,496. (Mr. Harrison.) That is not the deposit in the tank P-No ; but it is the same description of material. One of our people suggested that it might be possible to burn it, and they lighted fires in this heap some months ago, and the result is, that the heap has been almost burned down ; half a dozen carts would carry the whole away. I could burn the refuse without very great inconvenience, but it would be a more difficult operation in connexion with many premises that are more closely surrounded with other buildings. The most feasible mode of getting rid of the refuse in my opinion is to burn it. 10,497. (Chairman.) Other parties would have to cart the refuse to some place where it could be so disposed of?—Yes; it might be done in that way. 10,498. You say that you would burn it. I suppose you are aware that ordinary clay can be burned by mixing small coal and refuse with it, which is used as ballast for railways in place of gravel?—Yes. I have seen that done frequently. 10,499. If this refuse is useless for agricultural pur- poses, there is still that mode of getting rid of it?— Yes; we had got so large a heap that we were afraid to continue to heap it up, but now that we have got rid of it we shall commence again to collect another heap and burn it in the same way. 10,500. Are you aware that at Huddersfield they burn the spent wood to a great extent under the boilers ?—Yes; but that can only be the case where they use chipped wood. Stuff dyers generally use rasped wood, which is more economical, where it can be used. Chipped wood in limited quantities can be used under boilers. - 10,501. (Professor Way.) I suppose that its inde- structible quality is greater when rasped than in the natural form, as is the case with sawdust?—Yes. 10,502. Because all the juices are taken out in the treatment of it, and you have nothing but the woody fibre 2–Yes. In addition to that, you have a combi- nation of a stringent matter and sumach, and so on; the refuse is all but indestructible except by fire; it is valueless, and worse than that as a manure. 10,503. What you get in the subsiding tank is a totally different thing, is it not?—No. 10,504. The stuff which is precipitated from the dye water is the same kind of stuff as is fixed in the cloth which is dyed, is it not?—The greater mass is precisely similar to the material of which I have been speaking, the solid material. 10,505. It is not produced by the mixture of the different liquids?—No ; it remains in solution to a considerable extent in the water which passes out from the deposited matter. 10,506. When dye water is allowed to rest, does it not subside into a precipitate with a tolerably clear liquid 2–Never ; we have tried ours, and we have never seen it so subside. 10,507. It cannot be filtered, can it 2–Yes, of course, theoretically it can be, but practically I fear it SS Esq. 15 Nov. 1866. 322 RIVERS COMMISSION:--MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD. H. W. Ripley. Esq. 15 Nov. 1866. cannot. A bed of ashes will filter the foulest dye water into perfectly clear water, so that you might almost drink it, but a bed of ashes becomes fouled very soon. It is impracticable to carry that system out. 10,508. The great difficulty in dealing with subsided matter in those tanks is that it is in a state of slush, and you cannot dry it —The moment you begin to deal with large masses, the labour is so very costly that it becomes a very serious matter. 10,509. After all the quantity of solid matter is small as compared with the quantity of liquid that remains mixed with it after it has subsided, and it is very wet?—Yes, it is. 10,510. That would constitute your greatest diffi- culty, would it not 2–In wheeling the stuff from sub- siding tanks, of course, the water would drain out to Some extent. 10,511. The quantity, which might not be large if it was dry, is very large in a state of sludge –Yes; but it is not in that state two or three days afterwards. After the tank has been emptied it will not be in an actual state of sludge, it will be material that can be cut with a spade. 10,512. But in that state it contains large quantities of water 2–Yes. 10,513. (Chairman.) What weight of coals do you use per annum ?—About 20,000 tons. 10,514. What weight of ashes does that quantity yield — That varies very much according to the decription of coal used. Lowmoor coal makes a very much smaller quantity of ashes than coal which comes from between this place and Wakefield. I should say from 15 to 20 cartloads a day. 10,515. What weight would a cartload represent, one ton –Not so much as a ton of ashes. 10,516. What do you do with your ashes?—The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway is contiguous to our works, and also there is a branch into our works from the Great Northern Railway, and these two com- panies are thankful to take all our ashes for ballast. 10,517. Do you tip any of the ashes into the river ? —Not now. So long as I can recollect the Bowling beck, which in the winter becomes a large stream, they were wheeled principally all along the side of the watercourse. 10,518. That is parallel with it —Yes; and when the floods came in winter the ashes were all washed away, but it was many years ago that the ashes were so dealt with. 10,519. Looking at the enormous weight of coal used in Yorkshire, and the enormous weight of ashes resulting from it, should you say that it would be ad- visable that they should be kept out of the stream 2– By all means ; it is perfectly monstrous now-a-days that any ashes should be put into the watercourses. 10,520. Are you aware whether it is the practice in certain parts to throw ashes into the streams ?—No, I think not. 10,521. Is it not he case in Bradford 2–No, I think not. 10,522. Would you be surprised to learn that upon every one of the streams that flow into the Aire and Calder there are thousands of tons of ashes per annum thrown in 2–I can conceive that in some outside country places they do as our people did at Bowling 30 or 40 years ago. 10,523. Do you think it would be a legitimate in- terference on the part of the State with trade if they said that it should not be done?—I think there would be no difference of opinion on that question. 10,524. With regard to the pollution of the river by sediment from reservoirs or tanks, at present you put your sediment in, and it is not complained of? —We put it in as a matter of right, in point of fact we claim a right to put it in. 10,525. Would you like to be interfered with in that matter –I have no objection to the whole ques- tion being very carefully discussed and considered, and if any feasible mode, which shall apply generally, can be brought to bear, and I think to some extent it might be, we should be glad to co-operate. I have given you strong proof of my willingness to co-operate. The 200 or 300 tons of refuse dyewoods which I pro- duce in a year, I shall, now that I am satisfied that it is feasible, for the future not pass any into the stream, but burn it without material cost. - 10,526. Have you tried what effect the ashes resulting from the burnings would have upon agri- culture?—No ; it is only recently that I ordered them to be collected in a few casks and let me have them at my farm, but whether that has been done I do not know. 10,527. It may turn out that although the solid material is not useful the ashes may be 2–Yes, to a certain extent, I have no doubt they may be for Imanure. 10,528. Are you aware that generally throughout Yorkshire the sediment from the lodges attached to each mill is flushed out into the river, and passed from one mill to the other from Saturday night to Sunday night —No, I am not aware of that. 10,529. Supposing there are 50 mills upon a stream in a course of 50 miles, each having a dam, does not this occur, that the one highest up first flushes his lodge into the stream, the next below him receives the mud so sent down, and he has no remedy but to flush it out in like manner. The next man gets the combined result of the two, and so it goes on down the stream. At last the flat reaches of the river be- come shallow, and the Navigation Company have to dredge out the deposit, or it so shoals that the river floods the adjacent land; whereas if the sediment were taken out by each manufacturer it would be a minimum to him, he would free himself and not injure his neigh- bour below him; he would also be free from the mud of his neighbour above him. But at the present time is not the state of things what I have described 2–Yes, but a serious question arises there : how, except by flushing, is he to get it out without stopping his works? 10,530. He can easily get it out. Nothing is easier than to dredge it out upon a similar principle to the dredging operations upon the river below. It can be dredged out in the same way —Theoretically it looks so, but I am not so sure that it is so practi- cable. In the first place a man wants his water clean, and you would stop his works as it appears to me. 10,531. But the sludge goes in and deposits itself in the first quiet place, and the accumulation of mud for one day will render the water unfit to use perhaps for a month for everbody below 2–Yes, that I can quite conceive. - 10,532. Do not you think that, if practicable, some means should be provided to remedy that state of things?—Yes, if practicable. 10,533. And that each person should contribute a certain amount towards preventing it 2–That involves the whole question. After careful investigation as to what is desirable to be done, it appears to me that the circumstances elsewhere are somewhat different from the circumstances that exist here generally on our streams, because we are so limited in the supply of Water. 10,534. (Professor Way.) You use the streams rather as a means of getting rid of the refuse water when you have done with it than as a supply, do you not ?—We should be glad to use the streams of clean water if we could obtain access to them, but we are so far from them. 10,535. The view you would take would be different if you were dependent upon the refuse water for your supply as well as for your easement; take, for instance, the mills that are upon the river Calder, where they have to use the river water for the purposes of their trade, and where they also use the river as an ease- ment for their works –I think that every practicable means should be used, not only here, where the streams flow into the river, but also on the rivers themselves, to keep out as much pollution as is feasible, consis- tently with not trammelling the manufacturers to a degree that might be prejudicial. 10,536. The view which the Chairman was bringing before you was this, that you do incur a very large expense each time that you clear out what you have thrown in, that you make the river impure, and have - -º- RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 323 to deal with it afterwards as well as you can 7–You mean the country has to do so. 10,537. Upon the whole manufacturers are doing over and over again what each might once do in- dividually, that is the result –Yes; but it appears to me that the difficulty is to show them a way of dealing with the refuse they get out, that is, I think, as difficult a question as clearing it out. I think that many manufacturers, dyers, and others, would not half so much object to getting the refuse out of the stream . as to dealing with it when they get it out, it being in such large masses, what are they to do with it I think that that is the more difficult question of the two. 10,538. (Chairman.) Would not the answer to that be exactly the same as it must be in the case of ashes; there are gentlemen in Yorkshire who pour in ashes from 2,000 or 3,000 tons of coal per an- num, and never take a spadeful away, and they will turn round with the same objection, and say, We can- not take the ashes away without costing us money; show us how we can do it, for that is no part of our business —The case is not exactly parallel, for it appears that ashes are thrown into the stream in some country places. 10,539. In Huddersfield by the County Bridge there are two mills, where you may see in a dry season ash- heaps projecting over to the opposite bank, waiting for the first flood to take them away ?—With regard to the ashes in this neighbourhood, there is often a consi- derable demand for them during the last summer, and occasionally in years past, they have been fetched from the manufactories by parties who begged for them. 10,540. Not only are streams obstructed by ashes, but if any riparian owner is excavating foundations or making a new road across his land, and the river is the readiest tipping place, the solids go in ; and from the highways bordering the rivers the surveyor has the mud scraped off, and the readiest place being the river, in go the scrapings —Yes. 10,541. Do you think it is a proper reply to make that that is the cheapest method of getting rid of the refuse 2–Not in itself. 10,542. (Professor Way.) Somebody or other has to dig out those ashes afterwards 2—Not always, I apprehend. 10,543. (Chairman.) The consequence is this, that the beds of those streams are, by the manufacturers, own confession, rising year by year, and the floors of their mills, which were before dry, are now flooded to the serious damage of the manufacturers; the mills that had a certain water power are impeded, because the tail water cannot flow away, and all these people are suf- fering from their own misdeeds, none of them have the means of remedy, they cannot interfere with the river to improve it, but they can all do something to make it worse 2–All that is not a sufficient reason, in my opinion, for interfering with the large manu- facturing interests of this country. Those mills which exist on the sides of the streams, and which are worked by water power, are comparatively of a very subordi- nate character as compared with the great mass which are worked by steam power. If that was the only in- jury that occurred I should say, leave things as they are; your remedy would, on the whole, be worse than the evil. 10,544. You would let them fill the river up 2–I should not have any apprehension as to the water- courses being continued in the same way; water will always make a way for itself. The damage to those water mills, I should say, would be so im- material that it would not be desirable to interfere with the large manufacturing interests of the country. I look at it from a much broader point of view ; there is the question of health to be considered. Our rivers, no doubt, are becoming so polluted, and the stench is so bad from many of them from time to time in the sum- mer months, that it is imperative that something should be done to get rid of the nuisance to a certain extent at any rate. 10,545. (Mr. Harrison.) You stated just now that you use about 200 or 300 tons of dyewoods?—There will be 700 or 800 tons, probably nearly 1,000 tons of BRADFORD. material which is insoluble. 10,546. You mean 1,000 tons per annum ?–Yes, of material that would float away, or which in substance would pass along with the water. Then there may be possibly 500 or 600 tons more of other materials con- sisting merely of colouring matter and acids. 10,547. That is the quantity you use, dyeing upwards of one-tenth of the whole of the stuff goods of this district 2–Yes, I think so. 10,548. So that 10 times the 700 tons, or 7,000 tons a year would be the utmost quantity ?–Ten times the 1,000 tons. 10,549. That is 10,000 tons is at present the largest quantity of insoluble materials to be dealt with ?— Yes, so far as piece-dyeing is concerned. 10,550. Can you furnish us with any data as to wool-dyeing 2–It is very difficult to give particulars as to that. There is nothing like the same amount of material used for cotton warp and wool-dyeing in the district as there is of material used for piece- dyeing. 10,551. How much less would it be 2–It is mere guess, but you may take the one at 10,000 tons and the other at 5,000 or 6,000 tons. 10,552. The two together would be 15,000 tons a year?—Yes, from that to 20,000 tons would represent the whole of the solid material from the dyeworks of the district. 10,553. Does that quantity bear any comparison with the weight of ashes that are removed from the manufactories —No ; the weight of ashes that are removed is very much larger than that, no doubt. 10,554. If I understood you rightly you stated that dyers would not object so much to separating the solid matter from the liquid as to being obliged to remove it 2—I think that that is the greater difficulty of the two. You can scarcely compare the two cases; as to the ashes there is generally a use for them, they are used in various ways, for instance, to repair the roads and for making footpaths, and now they are very largely used to mix with mortar. There is no such purpose to which dyeware refuse can be applied. You have really to get the refuse away to some place where it can be permanently thrown aside. 10,555. If you had to pay for the removal of the 1,000 tons of spent dyewoods and refuse that you make in a year what would the expenditure be likely to be per ton —You have to obtain a piece of ground to place them on. These things become very large heaps. I cannot venture an opinion as to the question. 10,556. At Wakefield we found that they are put to the expense of at least 1s. a ton to remove their ashes. Are you aware of that ?–If they remove them to a short distance, 1s. per ton is soon spent. 10,557. No, they put them into boats, and the boats carry them to some point, and then they barrow them out 2–At Wakefield they have that advantage in getting rid of the ashes which we have not here. 10,558. There is wheeling into the boat, loading and wheeling out again, and it is a considerable ex- pense to which they are put –Yes. 10,559. You gave us the number of pieces which you considered were dyed in this neighbourhood. Could you furnish us with the same information as to the quantity dyed in 1841, 1851, and 1861, in order to show what the gradual increase has been 2–The increase has not been very gradual, but very rapid. I should say, in round numbers, that the piece trade of the district has doubled itself from 1841 to 1865. 10,560. If we take the 7,000,000 pieces which are made at present, it would be 3,000,000 in 1855 and 1856, and 1,500,000 in 1845 and 1846 –It is only a very rough guess. The difference between the class of goods which are made now and those which were made 20 years ago is so great that a comparison of them would give a fallacious view of the trade. 10,561. Would the weights differ —Yes, and the character of the goods altogether. 20 years ago the great mass of the goods were made of wool, whereas now they are made of mixed cotton and wool. These H. W. Ripley, Esq. 15 Nov. 1866. Ss 2 324 RIVERS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD. H. W. R. ley, Esq. p 15 Nov. 1866. -- have increased very much in quality, but the weights have decreased; the conditions are so completely differ- ent that you can only take the money value. 10,562. Can you state what the money value would he 2–I think that in money value you get something like correct data. I should say roughly, in reference to piece goods, that the money value has doubled itself twice at least. With regard to yarns the increase has been very much greater than that. The export trade of this district in yarns in 1844 was 1,500,000l. and last year it was nearly 6,000,000l., that really comes to the same result. - 10,563. In estimating the number of pieces which are prepared in the district, did you take into accºunt the pieces that are sent to Leeds to be dyed –Yes; they are only a very limited quantity as compared with those that are dyed in Bradford. 20 or 30 years ago the stuff-trade so far as regards the mer. chant which is now carried on exclusively here was carried on in Leeds. At that time a merchant being there had his goods dyed there. The stuff-trade has entirely ceased to be carried on in Leeds. Every merchant, both in the home and the foreign trade, who is engaged in business to any extent whatever, is located here, and the accidental fact that goods are taken to Leeds to be dyed now in limited quantities arises in this way, that dyers have long existed there, and so long as they continue to manage their business well and have a fair supply of water (which is a more material question than the question of carriage be- tween Bradford and Leeds), those parties will proba- bly continue there as dyers. 10,564. Do you attribute in a great measure the removal of the dyeing trade from Leeds to Bradford to the circumstance of your having a superior quality of water, and water in abundance —No, I attribute it simply to the fact of the merchants being here I have no doubt that if there had been plenty of water here at a cheap rate, instead of not more than one half of the goods which are used here by the mer- chants being dyed on the spot, nine-tenths of them would be dyed here. At the present time there is no supply of water except at a higher rate than it can be obtained in places outside the town ; at Leeds, for instance, and Wakefield. 10,565. You gave us just now the value of the goods exported from this neighbourhood –Yes. 10,566. Can you give us any estimate of the value of the raw material used in carrying on that trade – Only very approximately. If you take the quantity of wool required for the 6,500,000 or 7,000,000 pieces that are made here at an average weight of 6 lbs. of raw wool, that gives 42,000,000 lbs. of raw wool; you may add probably 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 lbs. for the class of goods which are heavier than the general average, making altogether from 40,000,000 to 45,000,000 lbs. The export of yarn trade, re- presenting a value of about 5,500,000l., will con- sume from 35,000,000 to 40,000,000 lbs. of wool, according as the wool used is wool in the grease or washed wool. The trade from this country in yarns to Scotland, Norwich, Lancashire, and other places, is very difficult to calculate, and it is only a guess ; the other may be taken on very sound data at about from 25,000,000 to 30,000,000 lbs. of wool. That would bring the consumption of wool, in round numbers, to from 100,000,000 to 120,000,000 lbs. I do not think it can be brought to any more definite calculation. It is about, say, 110,000,000 lbs. of wool. 10,567. At what price would you put the wool — The price of the wool has ranged very high indeed during the past two years. It is somewhat lower now, and may remain so, but if you take it at 2s. a pound you would get about 11,000,000l. as the value of the raw material. 10,568. With regard to the materials for dyeing, is any shoddy used in the stuff district 2–No, not in this district. 10,569. Besides the wool you have the dyewoods and other materials which are imported, what is the value of them —The other great article of consump- tion is cotton warps. 10,570. What would the cost of the raw material be 2–It is not in a state of raw material; the cotton is in a state of warp when it is brought here. The value is estimated to be about 4,000,000l. I should have said between 3,000,000l. and 4,000,000 per allnum. 10,571. The materials used for carrying on the processes of dyeing, I mean the dyewoods and things of that kind, what value would they represent, taking the whole district —The value of the soap and dye Wares, and oil (although it is the merest guess), I should think would be under 500,0007. 10,572. The difference between all these items added together, and the 24,000,000l. or 25,000,000l. which you have given as the value of the goods pro- duced, would represent the industry of the neighbour- hood 2–Yes. 10,573. Can you tell us what proportion of British and foreign wools you use in this neighbourhood – That is a very difficult question to answer. The greater proportion of it is English wool. 10,574. Have you any means of judging of the weight of British wool produced in the country now —Yes; we have happily got some very good data, the recent statistical returns to the Board of Trade, giving us the number of sheep in the country. 10,575. What is your calculation of the an- nual produce in British wools 2–150,000,000 or 160,000,000 lbs., probably about 140,000,000 lbs. of washed wool are about the annual produce. 10,576. Can you give us the weight of wool im- ported in different years for some years past into England —The weight of wool imported, according to the last completed returns of the Board of Trade, was 238,000,000 lbs., of which about 56,000,000 lbs. were exported, leaving 182,000,000 lbs. kept for home consumption. 10,577. Was that last year —No, the year before. 10,578. Can you give us the weight in any periods previous to 1864 2–No. 10,579. Taking both the worsted and the woollen trade carried on upon the Aire and Calder, can you give us a close approximation to the quantity of wool manufactured within those basins 2–No, I cannot. I should prefer confining my answers to the worsted districts. 10,580. I wish to ascertain what the importance of your woollen trade is in the West Riding as compared with the woollen trade of the whole country. Is it not yery large —Yes; it comprises the greater pro- portion of it no doubt. 10,581. You have given us the volume of water that you pump respectively from old colliery workings and from the flagstone below –Yes. 10,582. From the one source you pump 1,000,000 gallons per day, and from the other from 500,000 to 600,000 gallons a day. From what depths do you pump those quantities —The old colliery workings immediately under my lands at Bowling are from 120 to 130 feet deep. 10,583. Varying from a maximum to a minimum level ?—There is an outflowing sough which runs into Bowling beck, that is when the colliery work- ings are full ; they do not vary more than 10 or 12 feet in depth. 10,584. From what depth do you pump the other water —The flagstone is about 50 yards below the colliery workings. 10,585. What expense do you incur in pumping that water –It is so mixed up with the operations which are carried on that it is quite impossible to give the expense separately. 10,586. Do you cleanse the wool as well as dye it —The pieces we do. 10,587. What do you use to clean them with ?—- Soap. 10,588, What becomes of the suds 2—The nature RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 325 of the goods that pass through our hands is such that it really leaves no suds, it is not like scouring wool, where you have a great mass of grease, and where the liquid is thick and can be operated upon ; the water which passes away from the troughs or vessels in which our pieces are scoured is considered as worth less. I mean that it does not contain any large quantity of grease. 10,589. Is it passed away into the brook –Yes : it passes away with the ordinary dye waters. 10,590. Have you assisted in erecting any works to collect the soapsuds from other manufactories — Yes; I let some old premises that were conveniently located to collect by pipes the soapsuds from many of the manufactories, and I have now made a fresh arrangement with Messrs. Le Page, of Wakefield, to let some new premises; they have just completed their arrangements for connecting a number of mills, where wool washing operations go on with their grease works. All the foul and greasy water which comes from the wool washing, after having been operated upon, and the grease and filth extracted from it, passes away into a drain, apparently almost as pure Water. 10,591. From your knowledge of the operation, do you think that the process can be carried on so that the water shall be passed away from the soapsud works in a clear and tolerably pure condition ?—Yes; from having watched the operations at these par- ticular works and at the old works for several years, I have no doubt upon the point. 10,592. Do you think it would be any hardship if the Government required that no soapsuds should be passed into the rivers or any running streams before such soapsuds were purified ?–Practically, I apprehend that legislation would be useless on that point, because manufacturers, wherever they have the opportunity, are using the means which are now at their disposal to obtain money for their soapsuds. 10,593. Are you aware that up to this time not one-half of the soapsuds have been reclaimed P-I can quite believe it, because in matters of this kind operations are so slow. 10,594. But as manufacturers have a pecuniary interest in carrying out the system a little extra pressure would not be injurious, would it 2–It is not altogether that, but the time and circumstances which the parties have not the least within their control; for instance, until within the last three months two or three of my tenants could not possibly have used these premises, they had no means of getting access to them until just now, although they were wishful to do it. You must give time in all these cases to effect changes, however desirable they may be. I can now give you the imports or quantities of foreign wool kept for home consumption during the three decennial periods I have mentioned ; in round numbers, in 1844 it was 64,000,000 lbs. 10,595. What was the raw wool worth in 1844 – That will require a little consideration. The weight in 1854 was 82,000,000 lbs., and in 1864 it was 182,000,000 lbs. 10,596. So that it has very nearly trebled since 1844 –Yes. 10,597. Do you suppose that there has been any great increase in the weight?—Some time ago I stated that I thought the trade had twice doubled itself in the past 20 years, of which I have the proof here. The exports in 1844 were 9,000,000l., and the exports in 1864 were 24,000,000l. ; those are only exports. 10,598. Can you put in any papers containing these statistics 2–Yes; whatever may be applicable shall be handed in. 10,599. Do you think that there is any great dif- ference in the weight of British wool which is produced in the country now and that which was produced in 1844?–We have no data by which to judge of the quantity, except this fact. The prosperity of the district since the panic of 1858 has been almost un- precedented, uniform and continuous to an extent that I never remember before. One result of that was that commencing in 1861, and going on to 1864 it was found that the stock of English wool was very gradually but evidently decreasing in the country; in some districts, I know that in 1863 and 1864 there was none, it had all been sold; we know that to be a fact. The stock of English wool which is now held in the far- mers’ hands is a very considerable amount. The con- sumption has been going on more rapidly than ever, and I think I need give you no other proof than this, that the increase in the number of sheep has been very great during the last seven years. 10,600. I kept for some years a Southdown flock, some 12 or 15 years ago. I found that the short Southdown wool sold the best, but of late years I have found that it was better to have cross-bred sheep, or long-wool sheep, as there was a greater demand for the wool, and it brought a better price?—That illus- trates the fact which I named to you in reference to the competition between this country and France. Many years ago we had a considerable trade in fine goods that were sent to France, and also to America, and were also used for the home trade, all made from the Southdown and similar wools. Now not only do the French supply America and other countries where we sent a class of fine goods, but there is not a piece made in all this district to compete with what are called French merinoes. The increase of Australian wool has tended to lower the price of the Southdown wool. 10,601. The tendency is to increase the long-wool sheep of this country, and consequently the whole pro- duce of Great Britain 2–The great want of this district, and what we encourage farmers to produce is long bright-haired wool. 10,602. In the weight of the foreign wool which you mentioned, did you include the Alpaca and Mohair 2 —Yes. 10,603. (Chairman.) Has the Scotch trade increased as rapidly as the Yorkshire trade in light goods, such as those made in Galashiels —That is not a trade to compare with ours; it is more a woollen trade. Glasgow and Paisley are the two principal places where goods of a similar character to ours are made. 10,604. Has that trade increased as fast as yours ? —I think not; it has increased very largely, no doubt. The yarns for that trade are principally sent from this district. 10,605. Did the American war interfere with the Yorkshire trade either to retard or promote it 2–For a few months, at the commencement of the American war, there was a general fear that we should have a panic in consequence of the absence of the American trade, but the result was that after a few months had passed the American trade was perfectly healthy and continued so during the whole period of the American war. I believe the American merchants never made so much money in their lives as they did during that war. The Bradford trade was never more prosperous in consequence of the steady continuance of that trade. 10,606. What is the amount of duty charged upon English goods that are conveyed to America now from Bradford –It is very heavy; on an average 50 per cent. nearly. 10,607. Has that duty been put upon the goods since the cessation of the war, or was it put on during its progress –It was gradually increased during the war; there has been no increase since the war, I think ; it was increased up to 50 per cent. 10,608. And remains at that amount now 2–Yes; but notwithstanding that the Americans have taken, speaking generally, larger quantities of our Bradford goods. 10,609. Is there a similar duty upon goods sent from France?—I believe French goods pay the same duty, it is a general tariff. - 10,610. What weight of coal do you burn per annum ?–Over 20,000 tons. 10,611. Have you considered the question of smoke prevention in burning your coal 2–I have been BRADFORD. H. W. Ripley, Esq. 15 Nov. 1866. S s 3 326 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADEORD. H. W. Ripley, Esq., 15 Nov. 1866. turning my attention to that subject latterly, and I think the time has come when we have had sufficient experience to base some general plan for the con- sumption of smoke, some plan applicable to all. 10,612. Have you tried any specific plan –From time to time during the past 20 years I have seen tried several plans, many. 10,613. Did you ever see a plan tried that appeared to you to accomplish the object —I think I have seen plans that appeared to answer, the parties apparently have been satisfied with them, but ultimately they have fallen into disuse, or a difficulty has arisen. I think we have sufficient data now on which to base some general action as to smoke consumption, and I ventured to express an opinion some weeks ago, that we should see a very great change in Bradford in two or three years in that particular. 10,614. Is a bright or clear atmosphere an advan- tage to the Bradford trade 2–No doubt of it. 10,615. Do the soots and smoke which pervade the town now injuriously affect the goods 2—I have no doubt that very great injury and great loss are sus- tained in consequence of the sooty state of the atmosphere. 10,616. Have you ever put in operation any kind of patent for preventing smoke 2–Yes, and hitherto they have all been laid aside. It is almost premature to speak of them, but we have two plans, not speculative plans, which I believe will be applicable under different circumstances, and which are to be worked out in a few weeks. I have the greatest faith in them. I believe that one or the other, according to circumstances, will certainly be a smoke cure, and without doing injury to the boilers, which is really a great and vital question, and which has hitherto been the great difficulty. 10,617. Has it occurred to you in working your boilers that instead of dealing with the patentee you had better deal with your own fireman —Yes; that is all very well, and in some cases it can be worked out by the fireman, if you have an intelligent man, and there is plenty of boiler space, that is to say, where he has not to force his fire; but no man can burn the smoke where he is compelled to raise a given quantity of steam in a given time, if his boiler space is not more than equal to the raising of that steam, or with- out pressing upon his fire after he has thrown coal upon it, and stirring it up to raise an extra quantity of steam. 10,618. Are you quite sure of that?—I think that there can be no question about it. If you should adopt some system of smoke burning, which is beyond the control of the fireman (and I believe that we shall neverget to smoke burning thoroughly satisfactory until we do use such means) by which he cannot force his fires beyond the power of the apparatus with which he is working, and consequently, if that apparatus is work. ing rightly, and has once burnt its smoke, it must continue to do so. 10,619. Smoke prevention, in fact the combustion of fuel, is to a great degree a chemical operation, is it not 2–1 will not venture to say. It is perhaps partly a chemical operation, and partly a mechanical one. 10,620. It is the conversion of a solid into a gas 2 ——Yes. 10,621. The smoke consists of the finest solid par- ticles of the fuel ?—No doubt. 10,622. That, we say, is visible smoke 2–Yes. 10,623. There would be the same amount of material passing up the chimney if smoke were prevented, but it would be invisible —I am not sure about that. I should say that there would not be the same amount of material passing up the chimney, not the same material substance at all events. 10,624. If you pass 10 tons of coal into a furnace, and if during its combustion you continue in one case to produce dense black smoke, and if in the other case you consume the whole of the 10 tons without any but parliamentary smoke (and by parliamentary smoke I mean smoke which can be seen through), would not the same weight of coal in both cases pass up the chimney ; would not the same products of the coal pass up the chimney —No ; in the one case you pass up the gases which have been produced by the per- fect consumption of the coal, and in the other case you pass up the particles of coal itself. 10,625. But still, weight for weight, the same 10 tons are passed ?–On the same principle you might say that the whole weight of the coal which you throw into the fire goes up the chimney. 10,626. If the residuum of the ashes is one ton in each case, there is no other means of escape for the whole substance of the coal either as smoke or as a gas, except up the chimney, is there 2–Of course not. 10,627. Then you pass the same weight in both cases?—I am not sure about that, whether the weight of the gas is equal to the weight of the coal. 10,628. There is no such thing as annihilation,-- combustion is the conversion of one thing into another, in the case of coal, a solid into a gas, less or more transparent as the combustion or eonversion is less or more perfect —It is. 10,629. (Mr. Harrison.) It must all go up the chimney in one shape or another —Yes, it goes up the chimney in the shape of smoke, soot, or gas. 10,630. (Chairman.) You say that if you have to force your boiler to make steam you must make smoke 2–Yes. 10,631. Of course the fact of making smoke shows that you retard the generation of steam, and it arises from the method of firing. A man now, in order to force his boiler, and to save himself trouble opens his fire-hole door, and sends in say two dozen shovelfulls of fuel right up to the bridge, as far as he can scatter it in ; he covers the whole living fire with a coating of black cold fuel which so chills his fire as to prevent the combination of the gases at a sufficient tempera- ture to consume the carbon which is roasted off from the coal?—It depends upon the man. I have seen men do it in both ways. 10,632. If you make black smoke you may rest satisfied that your fireman is sending in coals over living fire as far as he can throw them 2–Then he must pick his bars in order to make the coals con- sume more rapidly. 10,633. If the fireman pressed the fire from the front and threw the coals on the dead plate in front, then the carbon would slowly roast out?—That, no doubt, is the sound theory of smoke burning. 10,634. I would undertake to fire the worst set of boilers, and the heaviest worked set of boilers in Bradford, and to produce the same amount of steam, and not to send anything up the chimney but parlia- mentary smoke – I would select the coal for you, coal producing a very small amount of carbon. 10,635. It shall be the same coal as that which those boilers are ordinarily worked with ?–If that is the case we have something to learn, and it is high time that we learned it. 10,636. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you state what weight of coal is consumed in the worsted districts?—I could not, without a good deal of calculation, give any approximate idea of the quantity of coal consumed here. 10,637. (Chairman.) I think that the School of Mines publish yearly the entire product of our coal mines in this country?—Yes. 10,638. And there is a coal commission which is about to sit upon the subject 2–Yes. 10,639. (Mr. Harrison.) You have the Board of Trade returns?—I do not think that they go back beyond 1844. The witness withdrew. RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 327 Mr. GEORGE EDWARD MUMFORD (Bradford) examined. 10,640. (Chairman.) What do you wish to state to the Commissioners ?—I wish to make some explana- tion with reference to the Bradford Canal Company. I am solicitor to the Bradford Canal Company. 10,641. What are the points which you wish to explain –It is of great importance to my clients that the explanation should be made, and that is the reason why I tender it. It has appeared from the evidence which has been given that the injunction is against the canal as a nuisance, and that it is the canal com- pany's fault that the nuisance exists. Now the injunction really is against taking the water of the Bradford beck so as to create a nuisance, not that we are not entitled to the water of the beck, but simply that we are not to take it now that it is in such a state as to create a nuisance. It has been stated that we have no statutory powers to take the water of the beck. It is rather of importance that it should be explained that we have full statutory powers to take the water of the beck; we are entitled to it. I shall be able to hand in documents to you which prove that fact conclusively and beyond doubt. Three out of the four judges stated in their judgment that we were entitled so to take the beck water. The decision was simply on the ground that the water of the beck was in such an offensive state as to create a nuisance, and that therefore we were for the present debarred from taking it. If the beck is ever rendered pure and clean, we shall be entitled to our supply from it as heretofore. I think that I should give to the Commissioners a copy of the Bradford Canal Act. I have marked the parts in which we are authorized to take, “all such streams and watercourses as shall be found in making the said cut or canal.” There are other provisions, but those are the special provisions. I will give to the Commissioners a tracing of the plan which was deposited at the time of applying for that Act of Parliament, which shows the intended line of canal ; it shows the Bradford beck, and it shows the two points of intersection. I can put in a copy of the shorthandwriter's notes of the judgment in the Court of Queen’s Bench. The other judges allude to the point, but Mr. Justice Shee specifically says, “On “ looking to the Acts of Parliament it appears that “ the company were authorized to take water for the “ purposes of the canal from the beck, which at the “ time the legislature authorized the taking of the “ water was sufficiently pure,” &c. Then I believe that the affidavit of Mr. Leather was handed in yesterday. That affidavit was of course simply made for the plaintiffs, and was an ex parte statement. I will hand in a copy of the evidence on both sides. I will not trouble you to read it ; it is simply for your use if you wish to refer to it. You will see that on our side we consulted equally eminent engineers; we analyzed Mr. Leather's suggestions, and the result was that we found that they were entirely imprac- ticable; they could not be carried out ; the Brad- ford Canal Company would have been happy to do so if it had been possible. I will also give you a copy of the answer of the defendants to the information which was filed in the Court of Chancery, which will show you the grounds of defence which they had, and the position of the canal company. The only other reference which I have to make to this part of the case is to a statement which I observe has been made by one of the members of the corporation who has been examined, Mr. Godwin. Mr. Harrison says, “Therefore the canal company have just ground of complaint.” The newspaper report states, “Mr. “ Godwin said that with regard to that point it was “ difficult to speak, but he thought the canal com- “ pany were bound to obtain a good supply” of water. Now if, as is very common here, the word of the corporation is taken as law, that statement in itself would be detrimental to us. The Bradford Canal Company, in their answer, set out the 25th section of the Bradford Improvement Act, 1850, to which I would specially call your attention. By that enact- ment the corporation are empowered to cleanse and otherwise deal with the brooks and streams in the borough as therein mentioned ; and the Bradford Canal Company contended that it was the duty of the corporation, and they do contend still that it is the duty of the corporation, either to take means for preventing pollution coming down as far as the place where the water is taken into the Bradford canal, or to supply the canal company with fresh water at the expense of the corporation. As we contend, the corporation are the conservators of the town, and they have neglected the powers which they could have put in force; the town, therefore, have occasioned the nuisance complained of, and the loss and damage which the canal company, will suffer by being shut up as they are substantially; the town should either have taken means to prevent the stream being in such a foul state, or they should have furnished us with a pure supply of water, or, of course, in the alterna- tive, have paid us compensation for the damages which we have sustained. (Mr. McGowen.) Of course the Commissioners do not expect us to acquiesce in that view. Of course, you gentlemen are not sitting here to inquire into matters of this description. If this were the proper time I should meet these statements. (Mr. Mumford.) I should not have brought this matter before your attention at all if I had not been compelled to do so by the remarks of previous witnesses. It was not my intention to tender evidence, or in any way to take up your time. - (Chairman.) In looking over the shorthand writer's notes of the proceedings here, if we find that we cannot use the evidence which we have taken without pre- judicing you in a legal point of view we will strike out the notes on both sides. (Mr. Mumford.) My position is rather critical at this time, inasmuch as to-day application is to be made for an extension of time for the injunction. I believe that it will be granted, but if it is not granted the canal will have to be closed to-morrow ; that will be a great loss and detriment to the town. We have given notice of our intention to apply to Parliament for powers to dispose of the canal, and we shall apply to Parliament for such powers. When we come before Parliament it will be necessary that we should go there with the good will of the inhabitants of Bradford, and if statements are made before you which are calculated to do us injury, I think that it is my duty to set them right. - 10,642. (Professor Way.) You know that the evidence taken here has no legal value —Not at all. 10,643. And that we do not express an opinion upon it 2–Certainly. I merely wish my observations to have the same publicity as has been given to the other statements which have been made. Your object, I believe, is to improve the condition of the streams, and I should like to show you the effect which this intended application to Parliament will have, and the additional powers and privileges which it will give the corporation. This is a plan of the canal company’s property; this is Bradford where the end joins, and this (pointing out the same) is the part where the nuisance complained of exists. The canal runs down to join the Leeds and Liverpool canal at Shipley. This part (pointing out the same) is now entirely built over by houses, and is town; the town is as it were squeezed down on both sides of the canal, and would be squeezed beyond it, but for the water and the canal company’s property. The Leeds and Liverpool Canal Company have made a proposal to take the canal, and to keep it open. Undoubtedly it would be a great advantage to the town that it should be kept open, Inasmuch as it is the only means of opposition to the railway com- pany, and power would be placed in the railway com- pany’s hands if it were not kept open. But this part of the canal property (pointing out the same), running into the town as it does, and being the chief source of the nuisance, the canal company consider it essential that it should be closed. The large portion of land coloured green here would give great facilities for making docks and wharves, and so on, and the canal company have proposed to let the Leeds and Liverpool BRADFORD. Mr. G. E. Mumford. 15 Nov. 1866. S s.4 328 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD. - Mr. G. E. Mumford. 15 Nov. 1866. - Mr. J. Crowther. Company have so much of the canal up to this part (pointing out the same), but that the canal should stop here (pointing to the plan). io,644. (Chairman.) That would shut up how much of the canal? – About 500 yards. The effect of that will be that the taking of water into the canal from the Bradford beck will be done away with. The Act will give powers to the corporation to deal entirely with that portion of the beck, to arch it over, or to do anything which they wish with it. I am not in the secrets of the corporation, but it is perfectly obvious that an improvement is very much wanted to make streets across that portion of the town where they cannot come now, and to make a road down there, and to build (as you heard the other day was very much wanted) a town hall, a post office, and to make other improvements, and the plan will be equally advantageous to the public by keeping the canal open for that distance in competition with the railway. I simply put this before you to show that the canal company have done all that they can to keep open the canal for the public benefit, that it is not their fault that the canal is closed, and that they are still anxious to make the canal beneficial to the public. 10,645. Will the land now covered with water be given to the corporation or sold to them :-The canal company have incurred a great deal of expense and I do not think that they are in a condition to give much, but must rather seek to recoup themselves for the expenditure. But I think that the town clerk, if asked for his opinion, will say that that would be a great improvement to the town. 10,646. You will sell the land to them cheap –We will sell it to them at a reasonable and fair price. 10,647. (Mr. Harrison.) Had the canal company under their Act power to make reservoirs for the supply of the canal?—The canal company had power to make reservoirs under their Act. I am glad that you have asked the question, because a great deal has been rested upon the fact that they had not made reservoirs. It was not necessary. The power to make reservoirs was simply a general power included in the power to make the canal. In making the canal the company raised the water by means of a dam for which flood gates were afterwards substituted, and they found that they had sufficient water to work the canal without making reservoirs. 10,648. As the canal was polluted, did the canal company take any steps to try and prevent that pollution ?—The pollution of the water, as I am in- formed, has been so gradual that it was not possible to take any steps, besides which the fact of the pollution being occasioned by so many people rendered any attempt to prevent it perfectly impracticable. 10,649. There is a mill, I observe, upon the plan between Bradford and the river Aire —Yes; Frizing- hall mill. - 10,650. Was that mill in existence when the canal was formed?—That mill was purchased by the canal company and is now vested in the canal company. 10,651. Do you know what volume of water you use daily upon the canal for passing boats down it 2– About 3,000,000 gallons a day. I have just received the following telegram from my agent, “Order made “without calling for reply. Amphlett stopped.” We moved for six months further time, and I take it to be that we have six months further time, which will enable us to bring in our bill before Parliament and to make the necessary preparation. 10,652. Will the defending of the action be a costly affair –A great expense has been incurred. It has been a very costly affair. 10,653. What may it have cost –The costs on both sides will spoil 5,000l., I should think. 10,654. (Chairman.) Is there anything which you would wish to add –I should like to have one witness called for the canal company, namely, the lessee of the canal, who will tell you the state of the water which comes down the beck and the means which have been taken to purify it. The witness withdrew. Mr. JEREMIAH CRowTHER (Bradford) examined. 10,655. (Chairman.) What are you?—I am lessee of the Bradford canal in conjunction with another person named Dixon. 10,656. How long have you known the Bradford canal?—I should think for 30 years. 10,657. In what state is the water now as compared with what it was when you first knew it?—It is very much worse. 10,658. Where do you get your supply of water from to feed the canal?—From the Bradford beck. 10,659. In what state is the Bradford beck as com- pared with what it was 30 years ago?—I cannot give you any idea of it, because I was not resident in the town to notice the beck. 10,660. Is the beck fouler than it was when you first knew it?—A great deal. 10,661. At what time of the year is the water in your canal in the worst state —in summer time. 10,662. Has it a disagreeable smell then –A dis- agreeable smell. 10,663. Does it affect you at all?—Not at all. 10,664. Does it affect the workmen who work upon it?—Not at all. 10,665. Does it affect the persons who reside upon it 2–I have never heard any complaint from the cot- tagers who reside upon the sides of the canal. 10,666. Or the persons walking along it?—I have heard them complain very much. 10,667. To what points do you wish to speak as to the Bradford beck, or as to the mode of purifying it?—We have taken every step possible to keep out the heavy filth; we have put down grates. 10,668. And that does not do it?—That does not doit. 10,669. Do you dredge the canal?—We flush the top length every fortnight into the beck. 10,670. Then you send back again and on down- wards what comes from above —Yes. 10,671. Then anysolid portion which you receive you give back again into the beck so far as you can?–Yes, 10,672. Is any objection made to that 2–I have not heard of any. 10,673. Do you ever dredge the canal?—We did so some 12 or 13 years back, and we then got out a great deal of dirt. 10,674. But you have not done it since —No. 10,675. Do your boats ever ground upon the sludge at the bottom of the canal 2–Yes. 10,676. And that makes it difficult to carry on your trade –Sometimes it does. 10,677. Have you at all complained of that state of things?—Yes; the only way in which we can get quit of the dirt is by flushing. 10,678. You could dredge and take away every pound of dirt if you thought proper to do so – Undoubtedly. - 10,679. It would be far more costly?—Yes. At times great weights come down, as on a Saturday when they flush or clean out the dyehouses above, and that stops our work. If we find out when the stuff is coming down we shut down the feeding cloughs and stop it. 10,680. Has it ever occurred to you that it would be advisable to get pure water from some other source for carrying on the canal trade 2–Decidedly. 10,681. Have you ever tried to do it?—No ; but application has been made to the corporation. 10,682. Have you asked them to give you clean water instead of dirty water —Yes; they have been asked what they would charge for it. 10,683. How many locks of water do you use in the 24 hours, in and out at that part – About 32. 10,684. What length, and what depth and width are your locks?—They vary a little, they are about 70 feet, 10,685. Do you know how much water it takes to pass a boat —Yes; I think about 61,000 gallons. 10,686. Have you any side ponds —Yes, at various places, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 329 10,687. Have you side ponds upon your locks to save half the water ; did you ever see a lock which had a side pond?—I do not understand you. 10,688. There is a method by which you can use a lock and only waste half the water –We have not that arrangement. 10,689. (Mr. Harrison.) You say that about 32 locks full in a day pass down —Yes. 10,690. And that there are 61,000 gallons to a lock? —Yes. 10,691. That makes nearly 2,000,000 gallons a day? —Yes. 10,692. Mr. Mumford gave us 2,500,000 gallons —There is the waste. 10,693. Say 500,000 gallons for waste —Yes; the water is drawn over the byewash. 10,693a. If you got 2,000,000 gallons a day from the water company, what price could you afford to give them for it 2–We could not afford to buy it. 10,694. (Mr. Mumford.) It would come to about 10,000l. a year. 10,695. (Chairman to Mr. Crowther.) Of what size are those locks?—They vary. (Mr. Mumford.) They are 73 feet, by 15 by 9. 10,696. (Mr. Harrison to Mr. Crowther.) That is a little more than 60,000 gallons —Yes. 10,697. You would have to deduct something for the draught of the boat?—Yes. 10,698. (Chairman.) Have you at all contemplated purifying the beck water –It has been named. 10,699. Has any scheme presented itself to you for purifying it 2–Not to carry out the thing. We could commence, but there would be such a weight of ma- terial and dirt that I do not know what we could do with it. 10,700. I believe that you have heard that your company propose filling up about 500 yards of the canal, and doing away with it —Yes. 10,701. Where are you to get the clean water for working the other portion?—The only plan which I can see which is available would be to get water from the Leeds and Liverpool canal. 10,702. In that case you think that you could work the remaining portion of the canal without admitting the Bradford beck water at all 2–Decidedly. - 10,703. And then you would have a comparatively clean canal 2–Yes. - 10,704. (Mr. Harrison.) Should you have to pump water from the Leeds and Liverpool canal –There are two projects in view—one by gravitation, and the other by pumping. 10,705. (Mr. Mumford.) The Leeds and Liverpool Canal Company have made a proposal to rent the whole of the Bradford canal. They have consulted Mr. Beardmore, and they say that they must go to an expense of 9,000l. or 10,000/. in putting down pump- ing engines to pump water from the Leeds and Liverpool canal into the top lock, at the Bradford end, from Shipley, and that the expense would be from 800ſ, to 900l. per annum to maintain those stations. They requested to have a lease for 21 years, and at the end of that 21 years we were asked to take their plant and engines, but we were not told how we were to take the water. Of course it was useless to sup- pose that we could accept that offer. We, on the other hand, suggested that it would be equally bene- ficial to them and to the town to have the land to the extent which I have shown you, and there would also be this advantage, that by taking off that length the water would come simply by gravitation to that point from Bingley. You will see from the affidavits of the engineers whom we have consulted that it is perfectly impossible to get pure water from any other source than from the Leeds and Liverpool canal. 10,705a. If steps were taken to purify the Bradford beck you would then have power, as you have now, to take that water P-Yes. 10,706. What would be the result if you allowed the proposition of the Court of Chancery to be carried out, and if your canal was stopped up for a certain time until the streams were purified, and if the water was then resumed by the canal?—Our position would be hopeless ; we should have lost the traffic; it would have gone on to the railway. Bradford would be at the disadvantage of losing the canal, and the railway company could charge what they pleased. 10,707. (Professor Way.) You have a right to water, but not to impure water –Yes. 10,708. And the canal for the moment is the set- tling tank of the beck —Yes. In our evidence we established satisfactorily that the beck is at least as bad if not worse than the canal, and that great alter- ations are wanted in the beck to improve it. The effect of stopping the canal will be to turn all this water into the beck. There are large settling ponds and places in the beck where the mud will rest, and when the canal is closed the beck will be in place of the canal, and will be in fact worse than it. The witness withdrew. Mr. SAMUEL SMITH (Bradford) further examined. 10,709. (Chairman.) I think that you have some statistics which you wish to put in 2–Yes. I was asked the other day with regard to some things as to which I was not in a position to state, and I had to make some inquiry from our books. 10,710. The statistics as to the refuse sent from the works and as to the acids 2–Yes. 10,711. And as to the quantities of dyeing liquids?— Yes. Taking the first six months of the present year as our data, the amount of acid which we use per annum is about 300 tons liquid. 10,712. That is at your own works 2–Yes; there are various acids, for instance, sulphuric and nitrate and muriatic. We possibly use about half that weight of other acids, which are crystalized, such as alum and other things which would be considered acid, Then as to an estimate of the dyeing liquors which we turn into our drain in the course of the day, I find that the quantity of liquors made for dyeing goods with varies from 40,000 to 60,000 gallons per day, and no more. All the other water which we use is used either for scouring, or for washing purposes after dyeing. In fact, by far the greater portion of the water which we use is used for washing after dyeing. A great deal of that water passes into the drain colourless, and to all appearance clear. Then I was asked respecting the quantity of water which we 17159.-2, drew from the corporation. I see that, judging by the first nine months of this year, our consumption this year will be equal to 40,000,000 gallons drawn from the corporation source, besides what we raise ourselves. Then a question was put as to the quantity of solid matter which we consumed. I have made an approxi- mate calculation that the dyeing materials which are insoluble are chiefly vegetable, and we do not consume 1% tons per day upon the average. That consists of rasped woods and various other matters which we use in dyeing. Cochineal and indigo and lac dye are solid to a certain extent, but still they do not occasion any trouble in the water. 10,713. (Professor Way.) What is the condition of the dye when it is fixed in the cloth, is it in a soluble or insoluble state 2–To prepare wool to receive colours, wool being a porous article, the colours require first the application of a mordant, and that mordant enables the colours to be fixed upon the wool or the cotton. º Take this piece of cloth; it has been dyed 2 —Yes. 10,715. Can I wash out the dye 2–No. 10,716. It is not in a soluble condition ?–No. 10,717. Then in the act of dyeing this cloth, that which was previously soluble became insoluble 2–No. T f BRADE ORD. Mr. J. Crowther. 15 Nov. 1866. Mr. S. Smith, - 330 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD. Mr. S. Smith. - 15 Nov. 1866. 10,718. How did the dye get into the cloth if it was not soluble in the first instance?—The dye must be in solution in the first instance, and the wool must be in a state to absorb the colour. 10,719. If that be so, what is the refuse like in the dye vats when it is turned out; is it all in solution, or is some of it in suspension ?–It depends upon circum- stances; we have to put in solid matter from which to extract the colour, and some of it remains still soluble after dyeing. 10,720. If you put in a perfectly liquid matter, would you not have a soluble matter in your dye vats? —We use a liquid colour, and we find no solid in the vessel at all; for instance, some of the aniline dyes are used in a liquid state. 10,721. They are quite an exception to other dyes? —Yes; we have no other colours which are liquid. 10,722. Take logwood and chromate of potash, and so on ; when they are mixed do they not leave an insoluble material which is fixed in the cloth 2–The colour which is in the wood we get into the liquor; the cloth is in a state to absorb that colour, and as soon as the cloth is properly dyed the result is insoluble. 10,723. Taking the material which is used, do you fancy that the whole of the dye is fixed in the cloth, or that a good deal of it remains behind in the dye liquid –It greatly depends upon circumstances. I have seen the liquor as nearly clear as possible after dyeing. In the case of some colours nearly the whole of the colouring matter is absorbed into the cloth. 10,724. In the case of aniline dyes you suppose that the whole is absorbed 2–Yes. 10,725. In fact, you can make the liquid nearly colourless in the aniline dyeing —Yes. 10,726. Is the material in the dye refuse water in solution, or in suspension, or both 2–It is both. 10,727. Have you ever seen any quantity of it allowed to stand, black dye refuse for instance 2–No. I do not know that I ever noticed anything of that kind. 10,728. Do you think that it would become clear if it stood —Generally our vessels are let out at night, but there are cases where they stand, and the liquor is as clear as possible the next morning. 10,729. Do you think that it is absolutely impossible to deal with that water in such a way as to stop the black solid material and to let the clear liquid pass away?—All that is wanted is sufficient room to allow the solid matter to deposit. 10,730. That is the great trouble, is it not ?–Yes. 10,731. Supposing that space was no object, you say that this water could be left to settle, and that the greater part of the solid stuff could be separated by sub- sidence –The whole of the solid matter going from our dye vessels would naturally and rapidly subside if we had space. - 10,732. Supposing that any scheme of filtration was suggested by which the filtering surface could be obtained in a small space, and therefore the objection to large filter beds done away with, do you think that it would be absolutely impracticable to deal with the 50,000 or 60,000 gallons of water which you use — There would be no difficulty in dealing with the water at all, but the difficulty would be in dealing with the solid matter deposited, because, in process of time, however large the storing bed might be, it would get filled with the subsiding materials which would have to be dealt with in some way. 10,733. Supposing a mechanical filter, and that the material separated got as solid as a book, and was in a cake, like oilcake, would not the difficulty be very much diminished –The question still remains, what is to be done with it 2 10,734. Is it vegetable or mineral –Vegetable, 10,735. Would it burn ?—I daresay that it would, it might perhaps burn in a furnace. 10,736. Supposing these hard solid cakes to be manageable, and to contain say 30 or 40 or 50 per cent. of water capable of being produced, but still to be almost dry to appearance, would they not burn if they were piled up 2–Ifancy that they would burn. 10,737. Would they not be like peat, or something of that sort, which would be combustible –They are nearly entirely destitute of oil, and they would not burn very readily I think. 10,738. There would still be organic matter of some kind –The whole of that which would subside out of dye materials like ours would burn; but I do not know whether there would be any profit in it. 10,739. I am not speaking of profit. Mr. Ripley said that they had found latterly that they could burn the rasped wood after it was taken out 2–We use a great deal of rasped wood, from which we extract liquor, and that wood never goes into the drain at all. 10,740. If you can burn the rasped wood, which is vegetable, and if you say that the refuse from the dye vats is also vegetable, I suppose you could also burn it if you could get it into any manageable shape? —I should say so. 10,741. Then you would not say that the matter was out of reach of a practical result if you were required to stop this material from going away with the water 2–I am sure that we cannot do it at this moment because we have not space for it. 10,742. You are dealing with the question of depositing tanks —Yes; depositing tanks must be the first step in any amelioration of this kind. The next question is how to dispose of the solid matter which you propose to be in cakes; but there would be labour in doing it, it must pass through a press of some kind. 10,743. Do you happen to have heard of Needham's press —No, I never heard of it. 10,744. It is a press which is used very largely at this moment by the potters for separating clay from water, and through one of these machines many thousand gallons are pumped off per day, the water going off clear, and the clay being stopped. A machine to separate one ton of clay will be about 10 feet long, seven feet broad, and four feet high; that is to say three or four of these machines might be worked in this room. The clay is separated from the water, and the clay is taken out in solid cakes, at a cost of 2s. 6d. per ton of clay so separated. The potters have now ceased in a great measure to dry their clay; they wash the clay and let the sediment subside ; they run off the finer part of the clay and let it subside. Formerly the slush falling to the bottom was dried in kilns, but it is now pumped into these machines. If it could be shown that the water of your dye vats could be pumped (whether with or without chemical treatment) through a press of that kind, which would let the water go clear and let the solid matter remain in cakes, would there be any prospect of that being done?—I do not attempt to give an opinion upon that point, because clay mixed with water is a very different thing from our refuse. 10,745. Your difficulty is the inconvenience of these depositing tanks –Yes. 10,746. Would the matter have a different aspect if a press of moderate dimensions were shown to you to be capable of doing the work?—If any process at all could be shown to be practicable for relieving parties below us of any nuisance or inconvenience attached to the necessary evil of a dyehouse I should be delighted to adopt it. 10,747. I suppose that if we asked for a press to be sent down you would not hesitate to adopt it?—No; but dyeing is an evident necessity in this country, and we cannot do it without using water. - 10,748. (Chairman.) Nor without fouling water?— RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 331 Just so ; and much more water is now used than was used formerly. 10,749. Is there anything further which you wish to add 2–No. questions which were left undecided when I was pre- viously before you. The witness withdrew, Mr. DAVID SALMoRD (Bradford) examined. 10,750. (Chairman.) In what business are you?— I am a soap manufacturer. 10,751. In what part of Bradford are your works situated —They are situated upon the canal bank, about 400 or 500 yards from the head of the canal. 10,752. Do you use the water of the canal for any purpose 2–Not at all. 10,753. Do you use water in your manufacture ?— Yes. 10,754. Where do you obtain it 2–It is principally, town's water, and what I collect from the roofs of the buildings. 10,755. What number of men do you employ?–15. 10,756. What volume of water do you use per day ? —I use about 200,000 gallons a year from the cor- poration. 10,757. What do you pay them per 1,000 gallons? 1s. per 1,000 gallons. - 10,758. What weight of soap do you manufacture ? —Imake 30 tons per week, or about 1,500 tons a year, 10,759. What name do you give to the soap *—Soft SOa,0. *760 Is it all used in this district 2–Yes. I produce samples of the highest and the lowest qualities. 10,761. What portion of oil do you use in it 2–In the year I import about 800 to 1,000 tons of oil; for making the soap I use about 500 tons, and I sell the remainder. 10,762. Have you any refuse in the process of manufacture?—There is the refuse from the lime and potash pits. There is a difference of nearly 20s. per pack between the samples which I have produced. My soap is considered of very good quality, I get 8s. or 10s, a pack more than anybody else. 10,763. (Professor Way.) Is that mottling a mere question of fashion, or is it a necessity –It is merely because persons like it, I think. 10,764. That, I suppose, is done by cooling the two ingredients separately –Yes. 10,765. About what weight of potash do you use —I import about 800 barrels a year, from 200 to 300 tons. 10,766. What weight of lime do you use —About 100 to 150 tons of lime. 10,767. (Chairman.) Have you seen the Bradford canal on fire 2–Yes, many times. 10,768. What sort of appearance did it assume when it was set on fire —There was a blue flame mostly, and it would rise six feet. I have seen the flame rise over the gunwale of a boat. 10,769. Was it accidentally or purposely set on fire?—The boys do it on purpose; they reach over and stick a match in, and set the canal on fire. 10,770. Do you think that you could set it on fire to-day ?—Not to-day ; in consequence of the very heavy rainfalls which we have had there is very little SCULIIl. 10,771. (Professor Way.) Do they stir it up first 2– No; I think that the combustible elements have chiefly arisen from the soapsuds which come down the canal, and which float. 10,772. These are not bubbles of gas which burst up and catch fire?—It is a gas, but I think that it is the fat swimming on the top, which catches fire as well. 10,773. The one begins it and the other carries it on 2–Yes; I have seen the flame run along like gun- powder for 100 yards. 10,774. Like a will-o'-the-wisp –Yes. 10,775. You say that this is a blue flame?—Yes; I have seen a boat completely made blue with the flame touching it, and running along the side of it; and I have seen the flame cover the whole of the drawbridge close to my works, and the white painted wood has been turned completely blue by the flame. 10,776. Does it give off opaque smoke –There is very little smoke. 10,777. (Chairman.) Have you ever known any injury inflicted by the bursting out of this flame; has it injured the boats?—I remember at one time seeing a woman with some children on a boat; (the boat drivers generally have their families with them,) and I have seen a woman shrieking and making a noise, but I do not think that the flame would injure her, because it was only there for a moment. While the gas lasted the fire burnt. 10,778. But it frightened her ?—Yes. 10,779. (Professor Way.) Is there any strength in the flame; is it capable of setting fire to wood —I do not think that it is. 10,780. (Chairman.) Is the sluice from the beck into the canal near your works —Yes, just opposite. 10,781. When they are drawing the beck water into the canal is there any additional nuisance?—The smell is frightful. 10,782. By the mixture and the evaporation of the gas 2–Yes; and the sludge which goes down into the beck is very great. 10,783. When they are flushing the canal?—Yes. 10,784. Will they fill the canal up as far as your works; you have heard what they have said about it?—I have heard what they have said about it. 10,785. Shall you be pleased or sorry —I shall be sorry in one respect, because I expect that I shall have to pay a larger rent for my property, but I shall be glad to have the canal shut up on account of the smell. It has injured my own health very considerably. A few years ago I was obliged to go away every year. 10,786. How has it affected the health of your workmen; have you heard them complain 2–Yes, they complain occasionally. I have two men away now on the sick list, but I think that that is more from old age. 10,787. (Professor Way.) I suppose that they may suffer from this smell without being actually incapa- citated or killed by it?—Yes; it produces a nausea in the stomach, and you cannot take your food. I do not know that it has materially injured my health, but I have known many times that having gone early in the morning I have had a nausea in my stomach, and could not take my breakfast when I came back again. I now take something before I go out. 10,788. The whole of the water which is used in the manufacture of this soap goes into the soap, does it not 2–Yes; we have no refuse water ; we do not make any hard soap. What refuse we have goes into the lime pits, and the farmers are glad to get it for Imallure. 10,789. If you used hard water for making soap would it make a material difference to you ?—I think SO. 10,790. You do not use a large quantity ?–No. 10,791. But still soft water is better 2–Yes, the amalgamation is more complete. 10,792. Have you any difficulty in getting rid of your refuse lime 2—We have a difficulty sometimes in getting rid of it, but when a farmer once knows the value of it he comes again. 10,793. You do not throw it into the canal?—No, we throw nothing into the canal. 10,794. If it were thrown into the canal would it tend to purify the canal if properly adjusted and managed?—Yes; a large quantity of sulphate of potash is in the lime, which would tend to purify the canal considerably. or The witness withdrew. I believe that I have answered all the BRADFORD. Mr. S. Smith. 15 Nov. 1866. Mr. D. Salmond. T # 2 332 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. IBRADFORD. Mr. J. M. France. 15 Nov. 1866. Mr. JoHN M. FRANCE (Bradford) examined. 10,795. (Chairman.) What point do you wish to speak to 2–I will put before the Commissioners a note from Lord Robert Montagu, dated in 1864. I col- lected some evidence with respect to the state of the river Aire about Leeds and the sewage from that town. I also prepared information to lay before a Committee of the House of Commons respecting the amount of artificial tillage required by the farmers in the circuit of Leeds, including Bradford. I will put in those minutes before the Commissioners. 10,796. Are you in any business —I am not in any business at present except as a public accountant. 10,797. You have taken up the question of sewage application or utilization as an amateur —Exactly. 10,798. And you have studied the question?—Yes; and I have obtained all the information which I could from other sources, and I have studied and seen how far sewage can be applied to the neighbourhood of Leeds where I live. Some years ago I was a manu- facturer of artificial manure and a considerable dealer in it. That brought me into contact with the subject, and it enabled me to see how far the sewage of towns could be generally applied to a beneficial purpose amongst the farmers, and also to see how far they would be disposed to use it if it was furnished to them. What I want more immediately to draw the attention of the Commissioners to is this, that the agriculturists of the kingdom generally have become very much addicted to the use of Peruvian guano for the growth of their crops. The parliamentary returns of late years, however, show that there has been a great reduction in the amount of guano imported, and there is a considerable probability that in a few years, perhaps in 10 or it may be 12 years, the importations into this country may almost cease. It then becomes an important question what is to be substituted for this guano. The next point to which I wish to draw the attention of the Commissioners is, that in the year 1860 I took an estimate of the quantity of artificial manure used in the district within 15 miles of Leeds, independently of fold yard manure. I have the names of the prin- cipal dealers, and the amount which they are reported to have purchased during that year, of guano and of other things, such as bones, rape dust, and artificial manures. I have the quantity and the value. In 1860, in a circuit round Leeds, the total value of guano and other tillages amounted in round figures to 143,500l., and of that sum about 100,000l. would be actually paid by the farmers for guano. It struck me that that question would probably open a market for the sewage of such towns as Leeds. 10,799. Then would you contemplate solidifying the sewage 2–The question of solidifying is a very difficult one, and I think that it is scarcely practicable from the experiments which have been carried out. The only available plan, as it seems to me, is to raise the sewage bodily to such an elevation that it would flow by its own gravity over the lands requiring it for cultivation. There seems to be no difficulty about it. I have prepared a plan at Leeds, and a similar diagram was laid before you by Mr. Filliter, of Leeds, of the quantity of land, which would be available if the sewage was raised 25 feet in the immediate neigh- bourhood of the outfall of the Leeds sewage. That plan was coloured to show the contour lines. The raising of the sewage 25 feet from the outlet of it would enable it to cover about 5,000 acres. 10,800. (Professor Way.) Did not Mr. Filliter say that he could get another 5,000 acres?—Yes, by another elevation. That is the district over which the con- sumption of guano here prevails. There is another question which is involved in the application of sewage, namely, the expense of raising the immense quantity of water mixed with it, to the amount of 4,000,000 gallons, which the Leeds people are throwing into the sewers; there is a difficulty too in dealing with the question of storm water. - 10,801. (Chairman.) The Leeds sewage is now 8,000,000 gallons 2–Yes; but in 1860, the time which I am speaking of it was about 4,000,000 gallons, and of course it would constantly increase. I have tried some experiments which I exhibited before the Com- mittee at Leeds under the Diseases Prevention Act, and which were laid before the board of guardians. The town council threw cold water upon it, but the board of guardians requested me to attend before them, which I did, and I showed at how very little expense the sewage could be deodorized so as to render it nof offensive to the neighbourhood. I also showed that the sedimentary matter, instead of being deposited, could be raised. In the case of a still sewage like that at Leeds, where the sewage goes at a very slow pace, the mixture of a liquor which I prepared, and which consisted of a strong solution of salts, at boiling heaf, would throw the whole of the sedimentary matter of the sewage to the surface; the whole of the mechanically suspended matter was immediately thrown to the surface. - 10,802. (Professor Way.) Those are salts which are first boiled?—Yes, and then they are put to the 8.000,000 gallons of water. The quantity of salts re- quired is very minute compared with the quantity of water ; about one gallon of a strong solution of salts (I use a triple salt) would convert at least 10,000 gal- lons of the sewage and make it comparatively clear, it converts the floating matter into a kind of flock; there appears to be an evolution of gas which carries the flock to the surface. I would then raise the surface water by means of a float wheel and would take the body of the sewage along with the liquor to a higher elevation, and so dispose of it, and let the clear water run into the river. It appeared to me that the salts which I used had the chemical effect of fixing the phosphoric acid and the ammonia and the other acids in solution, that they were fixed and mixed up with this floculent matter, and the whole would be available for the cultivation of crops whilst the substratum of water would flow comparatively free from acid or any poisonous matter. It appeared to me that an experi- ment of that sort was required to prevent having to deal with the increased body of water which is con- stantly flowing from large towns. 10,803. (Chairman.) Have you analyzed the effluent water of the sewage after it has been treated by the salts which you speak of 2–No, I merely judged by the taste and the appearance of it. 10,804. Do you know that, so far as chemists have yet gone, any mode of treating sewage which separates the solids but very slightly affects the salts in solution? -That is as I understand it. The valuable part of the sewage is in solution. 10,805. And under any treatment which has yet been proposed it remains in solution ?—There would be a small waste, but it appeared to me from the taste and the appearance of the water that the acids were completely neutralized. Whether the phosphates were re-dissolved I do not know, but I think that they were converted into an insoluble salt. I used salt of magnesia. 10,806. (Professor Way.) You know that phosphate of magnesia is to a certain extent soluble in water — I used magnesia, but it appeared to me to convert the phosphate of magnesia into an insoluble salt which rose to the surface buoyed up by the gases which were liberated. The inference which I drew from the action of the salts was that the rapid action and the evolu- tion of gas at the same time from the soda contained in the water buoyed up the fatty matter, and that the phosphate of magnesia and all rose to the surface. Apart from the question of deodorization it struck me that we could thus get the fioculent matter contained in sewage more rapidly than by letting it deposit. 10,807. (Chairman.) Have you read the Reports of the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the utilization of sewage?—I did so in 1862, I think. 10,808. There are three Reports by a Special Com- mission. Professor Way was a member of that Com- RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 333 mission. Mr. Lawes, the great agriculturist, was another member of it. Lord Essex represented the House of Lords, the late Mr. Ker Seymer represented the House of Commons; Dr. Simon, the late Dr. Southwood Smith, the late Mr. Austin, and myself were also members of the Commission ?—I remember those names very well. I have not seen the reports of that Commission subsequent to 1862. I would merely wish to say to the Commissioners that, whatever method is discovered for dealing with the sewage, it is very requisite for the country that it should be applied as soon as possible. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 11 o'clock, at Halifax, Subsequently to the inquiry at Bradford the Com- missioners received the following letter : Gentlemen, Bradford, 17th Nov., 1866. Having been from home I was sorry to find that the inquiry of the Commission on the Pollution of Rivers here had closed without my having had the opportunity of offering my opinion on one or two points which I have not seen in the evidence given in Bradford and other places. I have been an employer of thousands for the last 40 years, during which period no nuisance has been created in connexion with the works of my firm (Walkers & Co.) by either the gasworks, wash-houses, or privies. The tar and gas water are sold at a good price and regularly carted away in close barrels. The soapsuds are sub- jected to an operation which extracts the grease and animal matter, for which a considerable sum is obtained. As regards the privies they are so constructed as to receive all refuse into closed carts, which, when full, are drawn out in the night and carted away by farmers into the country, who also pay a certain price for the Sanne. On these grounds, and because of the practicability of avoiding nuisance if proper legislation were entered upon I consider that all the refuse of houses could be collected and utilized I think that each householder should be required to arrange for the removal of these things daily or weekly, or as the case may require. I need not advert to the imperative necessity of saving all these things for manure, as we have the highest testi- mony that if we continue to waste them the produce of the soil of this country must necessarily fall off seriously. The mode I would pursue is in all new buildings to have a large pipe into which smaller pipes might convey all the contents of waterclosets, &c., and this large pipe should fall into a close box or cart sufficiently large to contain a ton or tons of refuse. That this cart should be placed in an arched receptacle on the ground floor, level with the street. That meat cast iron doors should be placed at the entrance, which could be opened for the purpose of drawing out the full cart and placing therein an empty one. And as regards houses that have been built sometime all persons should be required to make similar provision within a certain time. These carts should be conveyed to the nearest railway station in the night to the destination, which might easily be arranged by contract with farmers who now pay immense sums for guano and other expensive manures, not much more valuable than the refuse I am alluding to. No doubt the undertaking would be a great one and expensive, but yet it is quite practicable and would be remunerative and profitable. Manure stations would be provided by the railway companies as they would find it a source of large revenue. I ought to have said also that the builders of houses in blocks or streets might so place the main pipes as to have them to serve for more houses than one. This is pretty nuch what I wished to state to the Commissioners on this subject. I also wished to allude to the making of reservoirs, which in my opinion are constructed on so large a scale as to be dangerous in many instances, and by experience they have proved so to the great destruction of life and property. T think that no single reservoir should be made beyond a certain safe size. Why not, when a large supply of water is wanted, construct two, three, or four instead of one along side each other, and let a pipe from each unite at a little distance in a larger one P. Thus the limited size would prevent any dangerous pressure during high winds or floods, which is the great point to be obtained for the public safety. I will add no more except to confirm the opinion generally offered, that no goodwill be done except by imperial legislation, and for this the country is fully prepared. I am, Gentlemen, your obedt, servant, To the (Signed) W. WALKER, Commissioners on the Pollution of Rivers, &c. &c. &c. The following Statistical Tables relative to the woollen and worsted trades were furnished to the Commission by Mr. Jacob Behrens, vice-president of the Chamber of Commerce of Bradford, A. ESTIMATE of the PRODUCE of Wool in the UNITED KINGDOM, from 25,795,708. Sheep based upon a RETURN made for GREAT BRITAIN on the 5th March 1866 and for IRELAND in 1865. MEM.–The number of sheep in Ireland under one year old is supposed to bear the same proportion to the whole number as that given in the Return for Great Britain. Number of Sheep. - Wool wº produced. - Under one Oºº Yeº | Fleece. year old. old and above. lbs. In England - - 4,505,345 10,620,196 6% lb. 69,031,274 , Wales - - 380,854 1,287,809 * , 7,082,950 , Scotland - - 1,624,638 3,630,439 6%. , 23,597,853 ,, Ireland - - 1,048,491 2,640,251 6 : 15,841,506 , Isle of Man & Channel 24,489 33,196 6%. , 215,774 Islands. 7,583,817 | 18,211,891 U. one year old Hog- || 5,583,817 - - 6 , 33,503,293 gets. Lambs killed and clipped 1,000,000 - - 8 . 3,000,000 Do. not clipped 1,000,000 - - || 0 , () - 152,272,650 Bradford, 12th December 1866. (Signed) JACOB BEHRENs. B. ESTIMATE of the QUANTITY and VALUE of Wool and similar material worked up in Worsted and Woollens. from Board quantity of MEM.–Imports, Exports, and Values of Trade Tables for 1864, except English Wool, for which see A. Produce #. Price Walue. - and Exports. Consump. º' Imports. tion p- ib. £ English Wool - 152,272,650 7,320,299 144,952,351 |2|4}d. 17,213,075 Foreign , - 206,473,045 55,993,803 150,539,242 1/6%d. 11,123,905 Gº. Hair or 4,737,330 || - - 4,737,330 2/8%d. 650,191 OOI. Hºme Shod- 52,000,000 || - - 52,000,000 5d. 1,083,334 y- Imported Shoddy 22,482,880 || - - 22,482,880 43d. 494,611 Wool Extracts - 5,000,000 || - - 5,000,000 6d. 125,000 Foreign Yarn - 4,479,984 || - - 4,479,984 |4/6d. 1,008,004 447,445,889 63,254,102 || 384,191,787 e 31,698,120 Bradford, 12th December 1866. (Signed) JACOB BEHIRENs, C. The ExpoRTs of Wools, Tissues, and YARNs, and the Quantity of Foreign Wool worked up in the years 1844, 1854, and 1864. -- - 1844. 1854. 1864. Exports of English Wools - £ 535,134 734,490 673,446 Do. orsted Yaarns - £ 958,217 | 1,557,459 5,417,377 Do. Wool Tissues - £ 8,204,836 || 9,121,186 18,533,457 Do. British produce - £ 50,642,306 || 97,092,308 160,449,053 Foreign Wool retained for lbs. 63,741,087 81,654,711 155,276,572 Home Consumption. BRADFORD, Mr. J. M. France, 15 Nov. 1866. Ti' t 3 334 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. BRADFORD, Mr. J. M. France. 15 Nov. 1866. W. Wightman, Esq., M.D. CoMPARATIVE PER-CENTAGE of the ExpoRTs of WorstED and WoollBN Manufacturers to the other textile fabrics in 1864. Exports of Worsteds - - £16,217,898 || 17% per cent. sº Woollens - - º, 'º'" . } 6 per cent. Do, Cottons - - || 54,882,329 59 -> T}o. Linen and Jute - 11,636,049 12; -- Do. Silks - - - 2,274,927 2%. , Totals - - - £92,744,179 100 per cent. Total Exports of British pro- |#160,449,053 duce. Bradford, 12th December 1866, (Signed) JAcoB BEHRENs, D. Estimate of the VALUE and WEIGHT of Wool, and similar material manufactured into Worsted and Woollen Yarns and Tissues in the UNITED KING- DOM 1864. 35,000,000 lbs. English Wool exported as yarns - Walue £5,500,000 110,000,000 , do, manufactured into tissues 4/ , , 22,000,000 150,500,000 , Foreign do. -> -> ,, 3/ , 22,600,000 4,700,000 , Mohair do. -> -- -> 5/ , 1,200,000 4,500,000 , Foreign yarn -> -> -> 8/ , 1,800,000 79,500,000 , Shoddy and extracts -> * 1ſ 4,000,000 Cotton, yarn, and other material - - , 7,300,000 384,200,000 lbs. £64,400,000 Bradford, 12th December 1866, (Signed) JAcob BEHRENs, E. ESTIMATE of the VALUE and WEIGHT in 1864 of the Wool, and similar material worked up with it into WoRSTED and WoollBNs for ExpoRT and HoME CoNSUMPTION. MEM.–In this Estimate all English Wool is con- sidered as worked up into Worsted, and that which is worked up into Woollens is supposed to be more than balanced by the Foreign Wool (Russian, Australian, and others) in Worsteds, WORSTEDS. EXPORTS. £5,417,377 Yarns (31,824,296 lbs.) equal in Wool to - - 35,000,000 lbs. 7,945,633 Goods+th mixed with other material £6,000,000 Wool - - - - - 4/ 30,000,000 , 2,852,815 Do. all Wool - - - - 4/ 14,000,000 , HOME. 13,200,000 Do. mostly mixed with other material 4/ 66,000,000 , 1,200,000 Do. of Mohair , -> -- 5/ 4,700,000 , 2.984,175 Cotton and other material worked up with the above, exclusive of exports - > £33,600,000 - 149,700,000 lbs. - WOOLLENS. EXPORTS. £1,186,815 Goods mixed with 4th of other material #2890,000 - - - > -. - 1/ 18,000,000 lbs. Do. all Wool (foreign) - - - 6,546,161 3/ 43,500,000 , HOME. 16,000,000 Do. of Foreign Wool - - - 3/107,000,000 is 1,800,000 Do. do. Yarns - - - 8/ 4,500,000 , 3,200,000 Do. Shoddy and Extract - - 1/ 61,500,000 ,, 2,067,024 cºnd other material mixed with 001, £30,800,000 234,500,000 Bradford, 12th December 1866, (Signed) JACOB BEHRENS. Halifax, Friday, 16th November 1866, PRESENT : ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THORNHILL HARRISON, Esq. - | Professor THOMAS WAY. WILLIAM WIGHTMAN, Esq., M.D. (Halifax), examined. 10,809. (Chairman.) You are resident in the borough of Halifax *—I am. 10,810. How long have you resided in Halifax *— Rather more than 10 years. 10,811. I believe you were mayor of the borough last year –Yes. 10,812. You are now an alderman of the borough * —Yes. 10,813. Are you chairman of the Sanitary Com- mittee º-Yes. 10,814. Can you give the Commission any opinion as to the sanitary condition of the borough ; is it at all affected by the foul condition of the streams?—The borough is at present in a very much better sanitary condition than it has ever been, for many years ago it was in a very bad state from want of drainage, and ill-ventilated houses, and people being crowded to- gether, and cellar dwellings, and many other causes, but latterly the sanitary committee and the corporation generally have done so much towards improving the condition of things that the health of the town is very much better than it has ever been. I believe it ranks now with any town in the kingdom of the same size and condition, as far as the rate of mortality goes. 10,815. As a corporation, I believe, you have car- ried out waterworks —Yes, to a considerable extent. 10,816. Is the water of a very pure character — Very pure indeed; it is superior to what is generally met with elsewhere. 10,817. You have carried out, I suppose, a system of sewerage 2–Yes, we have, an extensive one. The sanitary committee have paid considerable atten- tion to that ; they are ventilating the sewers at the present time. We wished to know what was the best system of carrying that out, and we have been waiting for information. 10,818. What is the present rate of mortality as compared with the past?—Our borough has been very much increased in area this last year, and therefore we are not able to say comparatively what the rate of mortality is ; but it is something like 24 per 1,000 this year, but that includes the deaths in the union of many individuals who come from out districts, and who die there very shortly, and these deaths ought not to be put down to the borough. 10,819. Do you know anything of the streams beyond the borough —Not much. 10,820. Are there any manufacturers above upon the streams out of the borough 2–Yes, there are some. 10,821. Supposing the people of Halifax did all they could do to sweeten and purify their own district, do you think that would be setting so good an example that all parties outside the borough would necessarily follow it, and purify their districts —I think purifi- cation ought to commence at the head of the stream; the water ought to be pure before it comes here. 10,822. Some jurisdiction is necessary beyond your own borough 2–Yes. 10,823. If any interference takes place with the streams, I suppose you would say that it should be general and not special ; not that one borough, or one set of manufacturers should be interfered with, but the whole 2–Yes. 10,824. (Mr. Harrison.) From your own knowledge, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 335 as a medical man, practising in Halifax, can you tes- tify to an improvement in the health of the population ? —Yes, I can. Halifax is very advantageously placed as to rainfall; we have it here very heavy, which is very important, because it washes out our drains and sewers, and that has been one means of reducing the unhealthiness of the neighbourhood and making the town better. Four or five years ago the death rate was 34 per 1,000, now it is something like 24; I am speaking of the borough of Halifax; but one reason why the rate is so much reduced may be owing to the increased area of the borough ; it was 1,000, now it is 3,000 acres. 10,825. You now take in a large agricultural popu- lation ?–Yes. 10,826. (Chairman.) The death rate has been so reduced 2–Yes; at the same time I do not know that comparing Halifax with towns of a similar area, Blackburn and other places, our death rate is favour- able, it is much lower at the present time than theirs. 10,827. (Mr. Harrison.) In your own experience and practice you have found that the health of the town has improved?—Yes. 10,828. Have the sewers been constructed since you were in practice P-Yes, it was about the time when I came here, 10 years ago. 10,829. How was the sewage taken away before you came here 2–It has always gone into the Beck ever since I came, the works were even then so far advanced as that. 10,830. Are there any cesspools now existing 2– Very few, if any : I do not know of any. 10,831. Apart from the death rate, do you see an improvement in the health of the people 2–Their diseases are not of so virulent a character generally as they were ; it is many years since we had a very malignant attack of any of the more severe epidemics; we have had no cholera. 10,832. Have you observed any ill effects from want of ventilation in the sewers ?—I have always thought of that. 10,833. Has anything come under your notice –I have attributed the ill health of the inhabitants to bad air and want of ventilation. 10,834. Has that been in the upper parts of the town or the lower —As much in the upper parts of the town as in the lower. The gases rise up and get into the houses. One means of ventilating the sewers has been by pipes, the water conductors have acted as ventilators, and this renders the effluvia liable, under certain circumstances, to get into houses. 10,835. Are the upper parts of the town inhabited by the wealthier classes?—By the better classes of the workpeople and the wealthier classes too. 10,836. The effect of an ill-ventilated system of sewerage is to remove the sources of disease from the lower parts of the town to the upper parts of the town 2–Yes. 10,837. Is there anything further that you wish to add 2–I do not know that I can say anything more. We have about 960 waterclosets, and about 11,500 houses inhabited, and the sewerage generally is, I think, in as perfect a condition as can be expected. The witness withdrew. JAMEs EDWARD Norris, Esq. (Halifax), examined. 10,838. (Chairman.) You are town clerk of the borough of Halifax *—I am, and a native of Halifax. 10,839. You have known it from your boyhood?— Yes. 10,840. What length of time have you occupied the position of town clerk —About 25 years. 10,841. What is the area of the borough of Halifax P —The area of the present borough is 3,768 acres. I have got an ordnance sheet here, which it might be useful to the Commissioners to refer to (handing in the same). 10,842. Has the area of the borough been recently extended ?–Yes. 10,843. Since the charter of incorporation as a municipal borough 2–Yes; I will briefly state to the Commissioners what our local government is. The town of Halifax is situated on the Hebble and Ovenden brooks, which are tributaries of the Calder. The borough is under the government of a council as a municipal corporation, and as a local board of health. The Public Health Act was applied to the borough in March, 1849, and confirmed by a supplemental Act in 1851. In 1848 a charter of incorporation was granted, and the powers of the local Commissioners, who acted under the Improvement Act, called the Halifax Im- provement Act of 1823, were transferred to the cor- poration by a provisional order, on the application of the Public Health Act. I have here a copy of Mr. Ranger's report, which was made upon a preliminary inquiry previously to the issuing of the provisional order, I will also put in the provisional order itself, and the schedule to it, confirming it : portions of the Act of 1823 were repealed, and portions were made applicable to the extended area of the borough, the Act of 1823 only applying to the township of Halifax. When the Public Health Act was applied to the borough the drainage of the town was in a very im- perfect state ; in fact there was no system whatever of drainage. The town falling rapidly towards the Hebble, everything drained into the Hebble, and all the sewers that then existed emptied themselves into the Hebble; but a plan was obtained from Mr. Ranger for draining the town, which is shown by the redlines on this plan (pointing to the same). The main inter- cepting drain, which runs parallel with the Hebble, collected all the sewage of the area of the borough, and discharged it into the Hebble at a place near the “Atlas” Works at the southern boundary of the borough in 1853. The reason why the outfall was made at that point was because under the then existing Acts of Parliament Public Health Boards could not drain beyond the limits of their own district, but sub- sequent legislation has given them power to extend the area so that they may, if they choose, carry the sewage into other districts and utilize it, under the Act of 1865, for irrigation purposes. At the present time the outfall is at that point (pointing to the plan). In 1865 we obtained an Extension Act, by which the boundaries of the borough were extended, as you will see by this pink line. The old area of the borough was 1,220 acres; it is now 3,768. We have already com- menced partially to drain the suburban districts, which have been recently taken in, and we have entered into one contract, which is to cost us, I believe, a sum of 3,000l. We have already commenced to prepare main arterial drains to include the more populous parts of the suburban districts, and we shall extend that system as the population increases. The original cost of the main drainage of Halifax was about 65,000l. ; we had expended something like 66,000l., a portion of that money was recovered from private individuals in the shape of payment for private improvements. We have expended now about 65,000l. for drainage pur- poses. 10,844. Is the present area of the municipal borough and the parliamentary borough coincident —No ; the parliamentary borough is coextensive with the old borough. If you recollect, under the Municipal Act there was power for the Queen to grant a charter of incorporation to the boroughs mentioned in the Reform Act, and that Act defined the boun- daries. Of course you could afterwards, by subse- quent application, apply to the Privy Council for an extension of the boundary by petition, but we pre- ferred doing it by Act of Parliament; we wished to extend the operation of our local legislation to the whole area, a charter from the Queen would not have done that, it required Parliamentary enactment. 10,845. Then the Parliamentary borough is less than the municipal borough now 2–Yes; the part coloured blue shows the old boundary. 10,846. Which is very unusual?—Yes, but we are a little in advance of the time. 10,847. (Mr. Harrison.) What does that circle HALIFAX. W. Wightman, Esq., M.D. 16 Nov. 1866. J. E. Norris, Esq. T t 4 336 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. J. E. Norris, Esq. 16 Nov. 1866. (pointing to the plan) represent 3–The area of our water supply. 10,848. (Chairman.) Upon the area of 3,768 acres what is the population at present?–56,000 is our estimated population. 10,849. What was it at the last census 2–The old borough, at the last census, contained about 37,000. 10,850. What was the population of the new borough in 1861 —I should think about 45,000; we now call it 56,000. 10,851. What is your rateable value 2–165,000/. upon the extended boundary. I can give you a few figures to shew the rapid increase which has taken place in Halifax. In 1849, the annual rateable value in the borough, taking, say, the present Par- liamentary limit, was 63,1171. 15s. 10d. In 1854, the rateable value was 77,414!. 3s. 4d. In 1860, it was 108,1771. 4s. 0d. In 1864, 120,139/. 17s. 0d. In 1865 we went to Parliament for an extension of area, and the rateable value of the extended area was 158,208l. 6s. 8d. This year, at the present time, it has increased to 165,007 l. 19s. 3d. 10,852. Is the borough still increasing in value rapidly 2–Yes. I think we have had something like 300 plans sent in for houses, mills, and warehouses this year, but it has been a bad year for building, for everything has been dear; and last year I suppose we passed more than that probably. 10,853. You have now acquired the power of sup- plying the borough with water —Yes. In 1853 we obtained an Act for the construction of waterworks. 10,854. Had none existed previously?—To a very limited extent. The town before 1853 was supplied from two springs, one called Birks Hall, and the other called Well Head. 10,855. Had any person a vested right in them 2– No, they belonged to the commissioners of the town ; they were transferred to the council when the powers of the previous commissioners were transferred to the council, but that was so insufficient a supply that the corporation went to Parliament in 1853 and obtained an Act to supply the town with water. This plan shows what that system is; the brown portion shows the township of Ovenden, and that portion (pointing to the same) is the valley of the Lud, the scheme embraced two sources. The Ogden scheme for the construction of a large reservoir with a capacity of 220,000,000 gallons, called the Mixenden Reservoir, and the Luddenden Valley scheme for the construc- tion of a large compensation reservoir of 90 acres, and other service reservoirs. Thus there were two systems, which met at Ramsden Wood, and from Ramsden Wood the water is conducted first to the service reservoirs in the town, the Albert Reservoir and the Victoria Reservoir, and two other reservoirs called Hanson-lane, into which the water from Birks Hall was conveyed. - 10,856. What is the surface area, the height of the embankment, and the capacities of each reservoir – The drainage area of the Ogden district, which is now appropriated, is 1,220 acres. 10,857. Will you state the rainfall —The Ogden Reservoir is capable of holding 220,000,000 gallons of water, and the deepest part is 66 feet. 10,858. What is the average rainfall?–36 inches would be the minimum, and 42 the maximum of that district. 10,859. (Professor Way). What is that blue line ; is there a right to take water from the district or deliver it?—The area of supply is shown by that blue circle, and that blue circle is a distance of two miles from the extreme boundaries of the borough. 10,860. (Chairman.) Have you scheduled all those townships ?–Yes, they are defined by our Act. 10,861. (Professor Way.) Has that any relation to the drainage area of the district —No, not of the Hebble alone. 10,862. Have you a right to supply any part of the Huddersfield district P – No, we do not go there. The hills divide Halifax and the Calder from Hudders- field, but we can supply anywhere within that circle or within the townships which form an outer boundary beyond the circle, 10,863. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the radius of that circle?–1 think it is six miles nearly. 10,864. (Professor Way.) If you deliver to all parts within that radius, will you be taking water from one valley into another ?—I do not think it is physically possible to deliver water to all parts of the circle as some of the places are above the level of our supply reservoirs, but Parliament requires that Water Bills should state the area of supply. Within that area of supply there are no fewer than 12 local boards. We are at present supplying Sowerby Bridge ; we are under a contract to supply the Elland district on the 1st of January, which is a place lower down on the opposite side of the Calder and has a local board. The Brighouse people are negociating terms with us to supply them with water and they have a local board. The Greetland people are also asking us for water, and in laying our pipes from Halifax to supply Brighouse we shall supply a large and populous district between Brighouse and the borough. 10,865. (Mr. Harrison.) Is the Ogden reservoir in the valley of the beck leading down to Halifax 2– Yes, it is at the head of the Hebble valley. 10,866. Where are your reservoirs?—The existing Works which we have now supplying the town are all in the Hebble district. We are now constructing new works in Luddenden valley; the Lud is also a tributary of the Calder. The cost of the productive works, including distribution, is 160,980ſ, and we have already expended 64,3571, upon new works, making a total of 225,338/. in waterworks. 10,867. What do you contemplate expending before your works will be complete –The entire scheme will cost us 300,000l. 10,868. What is your present income from the waterworks?—Our present income is 11,040. : it was that last year; out of this we had to pay the cost of maintenance and interest of debt. For of course upon What we have expended in works yet incomplete and therefore unproductive, there is a present loss. 10,869. Do you levy a rate in aid 2–No, we have other property the surplus profits of which go into the borough fund and we can pay the interest out of the borough fund without levying any rate in aid. 10,870. What volume of water do you supply annually from your works at present Pi—From our productive works in the Ogden and the Hebble dis- tricts about 1,250,000 gallons per day. 10,871. How much of that do you sell for trade purposes?--On the average 292,500 gallons a day. 10,872. At what price?—It varies according to the scale. I have a table which will show you the pro. gressive state of our waterworks and income. The first column gives you the amount of expenditure on productive works, the second on unproductive works, the total income, the total amount of charge on pro- ductive works, exclusive of millowners’ compensation, the amount paid to millowners for compensation, the interest on the net outlay for nonproductive works, the surplus on productive works, not including mill. owners' compensation, and so on, the net surplus, the net deficiency, the average quantity of water daily supplied, the quantities supplied for trade purposes and the quota supplied for domestic purposes. We have analyzed our trade sales in this way. Dyers and scourers, woolwashers, and supply for steam boilers, Local Boards in the district, and sundries, such as water supplied for small machines for moving printing presses. 10,873. Is your water used for power in small establishments to any extent 2–Yes; 34 per cent. of the water that is sold for trade purposes is used to generate steam. 10,874. Or for water power —No, not for water OWei'. 10,875. (Chairman.) You have no dolphins or things of that kind?—No, nothing of the kind; the water goes through our meters. 10,876. (Professor Paſſ.) Do you not supply for lathes –I know of two small machines in town that are used for turning printing machines. The ac- countant says that there are about half a dozen small RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 337 water power engines that are worked by the pressure of water. As to the percentage, dyers and scourers take about 21 per cent. upon the whole of our con- sumption, woolwashers 12% per cent., steam boilers 34 per cent., Sowerby Bridge Local Board 21% per cent, and about 19% per cent. is used for sundry purposes; that is the return for 1866. One thing is very striking in this table. If you refer to this table you will find that when we had plenty of spare water for sale the percentages of certain trades were con- siderably larger than now. In 1861 when our works were in full operation dyers and scourers were using 72 per cent. of all the water, wool washers were using 10 per cent., and steam boilers only 14 per cent. Now gradually the small manufacturers who have steam-engines are taking the water through meters for steam condensing purposes and those who usually used water in great quantities in bulk cannot now have it ; we have to restrict them until the new works come into operation, so that there is a gradual falling off in the using of large quantities of water in bulk and a gradual increase in the con- sumption by meter. I will hand this table in (handing in the same.) 10,877. (Chairman.) What will be your entire daily volume when the works are completed —From the Ogden and Hebble districts and from the Lud- denden district when they are completed, our daily quantity, after giving compensation to the millowners, will be 3,700,000 gallons a day. 10,878. Will that be the total volume you will have at command 2–Yes. 10,879. Do you know what quantity of water you give for compensation ?–Yes; we have to discharge down the valley of the Hebble under the provisions of the Halifax Improvement Act of 1853 3; cubic feet of water per second during 12 hours of every working day, about 950,000 gallons, omitting Sundays. Then in the Luddenden Valley the quantity of water given for compensation, including some reservoirs on the Warley Moor will altogether be 5% cubic feet. 10,880. In gallons per day how much will that make for compensation ?—About 2,000,000. 10,881. You use 3,700,000 gallons and you pay 2,000,000 in compensation ?—That will be the state of things when the system is completed. 10,882. Having paid that compensation have you such uncontrolled command of the area that you could add to your reservoir room at any period —Not without special parliamentary powers. 10,883. You do not obtain the entire use of the district upon paying that stipulated compensation ?— No, we were limited specially to the area shown on the plans, and we could not take our catchwater drain any further than a given point. 10,884. What was the name of the reservoir that I visited 2–That was the Ogden reservoir. 10,885. Supposing that you wanted to raise that reservoir five or six feet so as to obtain 50,000,000 of gallons more water, you could not do it without special arrangement?–Yes, we could raise the embank- ment, no doubt but we should not have sufficient catch- ment area. I am now speaking from the evidence we have received from Mr. Bateman. 10,886. Have you such control over your area that iſ nature will allow you to extend your reservoirs you can do it without increasing your compensation —You cannot raise your levels above a given height according to the standing orders. 10,887. Could you not make a second reservoir at the foot of it —Not unless we acquired the land. 10,888. If you acquired the land could you then make a second reservoir –I think we could but we should have to pay compensation to the millowners. 10,889. You have not sought for nor obtained an uncontrolled right by paying a fixed sum ?—No, we were anxious to get it in 1865, but we were opposed by the millowners. 10,890. If you increase the volume for use in Hali- fax you must treat with the millowners —Yes, un- doubtedly, the more gathering ground we appropriate the more compensation they require in return. In 1864 and 1865 we were obliged to limit the trade and curtail the domestic supply. 10,891 (Professor Way.) Did you raise the price of the water?—Yes, last year on our trade sales, but not for domestic consumption. 10,892. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the population within the circle you supply –We estimate it at present at 92,000. 10,893. Independently of the borough 2–Including the borough, that is the population that we estimate we could supply from our system of waterworks; of course it is increasing rapidly. 10,894. (Chairman.) If the population which you had power to supply amounted to 100,000 and you supplied them with 20 gallons per head, that would consume 2,000,000 of gallons of your water, and you would have left for trade purposes 1,700,000 gallons when the arrangements are completed 2–Yes, which is certainly too small. We have the uncontrolled use of the area within which water is now collected, but I do not think we could appropriate any other portion without further parliamentary powers, and we therefore must go to Parliament for an extension of our water supply. 10,895. Both in Liverpool and in Manchester they have been driven to the expedient of buying off in money the compensation in water which they were bound to give by Parliament 2–We wished to have a similar clause put into our bill in 1865 but we were strongly opposed by the millowners, we only asked for permissive power to treat with the millowners. 10,896. Your Act of Parliament defines the condi- tions you are placed under with regard to any better supply in dry seasons?–Yes. If we do not send down the stipulated quantity we are bound to pay a penalty of 10/.. a day to every occupier of the stream. 10,897. Has that penalty yet been inflicted upon you? –Yes, in 1862, which was the first year, we paid 9021. 17s. 8d., in 1864 we paid 1791. 5s, and in 1865 when we went to Parliament we paid 4,373. 4s. 6d. 10,898. It is of the utmost importance that the authorities in the borough should be in a position to avoid these heavy fines?—Undoubtedly. I consider that the welfare of Halifax depends upon our having an unlimited supply of water. 10,899. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you had a valuation made of the mill-power to which you now give com. pensation —Yes, I have a table here which I will hand in which probably may give you an approximate idea. The penalty is not solely for water-power mills, the words are “to all occupiers of milis and other works on the Hebble,” so that every man who draws a few gallons of water for condensing or washing purposes; even a basket-maker, if he knows we are not sending down the full quantity, can claim 10!, a day just the same as the largest manufacturer. This is a Table showing the number of mills upon the Hebble and Ovenden brook from Salter Hebble upwards to the head of the valleys. There are altogether 40 mills on the Hebble and 10 on the Ovenden Brook, making a total of 50 mills. The total annual value of those within the borough is 32,324/., and of those beyond about 6,000l. It gives the names of the occupiers, the trade or manufacture, and the stream from which they take their supply, it is more or less also a list of those mills which draw from the canal which is fed from the Hebble. There is also a column showing the average daily consumption of water taken from the corporation for trade purposes, and that which goes through a meter into their premises is discharged either into the river or into a sewer. 10,900. Are you under any obligation to supply the canal with water -–None. The canal proprietors have parliamentary power to take water from the Hebble. The total average daily consumption of water through meters at those mills on the stream is 91,830 gallons, but it is a very small figure. In 1862 I think it would have been something like 200,000 gallons a day. U u 17159.-2, HALIFAX. J. E. Worris, Esq. 16 Nov. 1866. 338 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. J. E. Norris, Esq. 16 Nov. 1866. 10,901. (Chairman.) Under your present system of sewerage the sewers empty themselves as you have stated at the edge of the boundary of the old borough * Yes. 10,902. Does the sewage cause any nuisance there * —Yes, undoubtedly ; the most poisonous. 10,903. Has it been complained of by any residents near to it, or millowners below 2–No, we have never had any formal complaints. 10,904. I suppose that this source of nuisance is mixed up with other nuisances?—Just so; the river is much polluted above that outlet from different causes. 10,905. If you extend the use of waterclosets beyond the borough and allow that existing outlet to continue the pollution will be largely added to ?— Undoubtedly. 10,906. It might become so serious as to make you liable to an indictment 2–Yes, no doubt of it. 10,907. Have you (since you have been Town Clerk) discussed the question as to the propriety of carrying away the sewage?—Yes; our engineer was instructed at the beginning of the year to report as to the mode of dealing with the outfall sewage of the town, and he no doubt by this time would have made his report upon it, but he found that you would be coming here and has, no doubt, delayed it until he should know what the result of this commission would be. 10,908. Does a great portion of the drains go into a beck called the Red beck?—Yes; a portion of the drainage area of the borough falls towards it. 10,909. Is there any pollution of any serious con- sequence there 2–Nothing particular, but there is a circumstance connected with the proposed drainage of that district which is worth mentioning to you just to show what difficulties may arise when you wish to get rid of the sewage even for irrigation. We pro- posed to make a main drain to carry off the Charlestown drainage towards the beck, and we received notice from Mr. Lister, a large landowner and others, that if we attempted to drain into the Red beck they would apply to the Court of Chancery for an injunction. We then suggested that Mr. Lister being a large landowner should take this sewage and apply it for irrigating purposes on his land but he declined to listen to the proposal, saying that his land was park land and not meadow land. We are therefore now in this dilemma that we have no outfall on that side of the hill, and we do not know in what position we may be placed,—we may have actions and injunctions coming against us on all sides. 10,910. What is the state of the law with regard to these nuisances as to prosecutions and indictments?— It is in a most unsatisfactory state : in fact we are at the mercy of anybody who can complain of our acts as being nuisances and injurious to health, and we can compel nobody to refrain from throwing their refuse and drainage into the brooks. We are in that position that we may be indicted for a nuisance or have an injunction obtained against us. 10,911. As a municipal corporation you are en- trusted with the good government of the borough 2– Yes. 10,912. A part of that good government consists in improving the health of the borough 2–Yes. 10,913. If making good sewers and drains would tend to that end you would I presume conceive it your duty to make them —Yes, undoubtedly. 10,914. As the law has provided you with no efficient means of getting rid of the refuse it is passed into the nearest watercourse is it not 2–Yes. 10,915. Then you are open to proceedings from the landowners on the river below you for fouling the river ?–Yes. 10,916. Therefore as the law stands you are liable to be sued for having effected a purpose which you were appointed to carry out 2–Yes, that is the state of the law now. 10,917. I suppose you would wish, if it were practicable, that parliament should examine into this question either through the present commission or in any other way and, if possible, provide you with some more efficient means of dealing with nuisances which result from improving the health of your district 2–We cannot carry out a proper sanitary system unless we have some parliamentary protection and means shown to us by which we can get rid of this outfall. - 10,918. How many houses are there in the borough About 11,000. 10,919. How many waterclosets are there 2–960. 10,920. What number of ashpits and middens are there 2–I do not know. The inspector of nuisances will tell you. I have a Table here which shows what we have expended in cleaning out ashpits and the charge upon the rates in each year from 1854 down to 1866 (handing in the same). I cannot give you the number of ashpits, but we paid last year 342/. for cleansing them, and we received 241/. 9s. 6d. from occupiers for the service. 10,921. That was a loss of 100/. 10s. 6d. 2–Yes, which was chargeable to the rates. 10,922. Do you levy a charge upon owners for cleansing their ashpits –Yes; we charge them ac- cording to the quantity of stuff removed. 10,923. Can they remove it themselves?—Yes, they can. 10,924. Do they remove it —Those who remove it themselves are more connected with the agricul- tural and suburban districts; the farmers fetch it. If it remains and becomes a nuisance our inspector gives them notice to remove it, and if it is not done then we can do it, and charge the owners with the cost under the Public Health Act. 10,925. Is not all the refuse from ashpits and privies, as in Manchester and Liverpool, vested in the corporation ?—No. 10,926. In those two boroughs and some others the whole of the refuse is vested in the corporation ?— Yes, and that would answer in a very populous district, a city or town, but not here. 10,927. You act through the inspector of nuisances, and you can indict a person or clear away the refuse for him —Yes, and charge him the cost of the work; that which is taken away by our own carts becomes the property of the corporation. Several gentlemen will come before you who will describe to you the state of their works and the state of the river caused by refuse of manufactories falling into it. I have not yet given you the storage of the reservoirs. The total capa- city of our service reservoirs is 58,688,564 gallons exclusive of the Ogden Reservoir, which holds 220,000,000 of gallons, that being partially a com- pensation and partially a town reservoir. The total area of the gathering ground is about 1,240 acres. I will put in the Act of 1853 and also the Act of 1865 (handing in the same.) 10,928. Have you formed any opinion as to the sources from which water should, not be taken — Yes. 10,929. You are aware that some towns in the district have been obliged to take water from the polluted river ?–Yes; and I think it is very desirable that there should be a general measure passed for the purpose of placing the management of the rivers—say within the basin of the Calder—under the supervision of a conservancy board. Such a conservancy board should be represented by the various local bodies and water companies as well as corporations within the basin. 10,930. Would you have them constituted as an elective body ?—An elective body. My opinion is that no town ought to be allowed to draw its water supply from the Calder proper for town purposes, and that the scheme would pay if all the property within the area of the Calder were to be taxed in order to buy up such water companies as now draw from the Calder. I have a table here giving the number of parishes in the basin of the Calder, the area and the rateable value. There are 13 parishes, and the total area is 151,149 acres, while the rateable value is 1,214,283!. RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 339 10,931. Do you think that would be a proper area from which to elect a conservancy board 2–I think so. I would also suggest that if a general measure is passed to prevent refuse being thrown into these tri- butaries or rivers, and particularly tributaries, from towns and manufactories, each town should be com- pelled to send into the board of conservancy a plan of its proposed drainage, or its mode of dealing with the outfall or any sewage irrigation works. Then that the conservancy board should approve of that plan and submit it to the Home Secretary through the Local Government Act Office, for confirmation by a supple- mental Act. It is very important that all towns should be placed in a position of security for the immense amount of money that they must lay out in these works; therefore I think that any plan which might be approved by the conservancy board should receive the sanction of Parliament. 10,932. In a similar way to a provisional order which now receives confirmation by being entrusted to the Home Secretary to lay before Parliament and carry it through 2–Yes; I think that any plan proposed and sent to a conservancy board should be afterwards sent to the Home Secretary for confirmation; notice would be given, and parties who were interested and who might feel injured or affected by the proposed works would then have an opportunity of appearing before the committee to which such plan might be referred and of asking for clauses. 10,933. The proceeding would be something like an application for town or street improvements, they would schedule the property and serve notices as for a private Act and deposit the necessary documents with the clerks of the peace 2–Or with the Town Clerk. 10,934. You send duplicates to the Home Office? —Yes. 10,935. A local inquiry is directed?—Yes. 10,936. And a report is made 2–Yes. 10,937. Then a schedule is prepared and a pro visional order is made 2–Yes. 10,938. If that provisional order is not opposed it passes Parliament, as a matter of course, without any expense to the locality ?---Yes. 10,939. If it is opposed it is sent to a select com- mittee and must take its chance 2–Yes. I think it would be very proper machinery to adopt for anything that may be done in dealing with rate-payers' money in these localities for drainage purposes. 10,940. At the present time I daresay you know that the law makes no provision for your going to Parliament 2–None. 10,941. If you go as a corporation to Parliament, you go at your own risks and charges 2–Yes. 10,942. Do you think that any arrangement can be made or security given that a scheme is bonſ, ſide, because there are reasons why that power has not been granted to corporations?—I think it is more from want of legislation than from any inherent draw- back in applications of corporate bodies. Corporations are trustees for the district and of the ratepayers' money; it is not to be supposed that they will go to Parliament wantonly. I think that where an applica- tion has to be made by a corporation for towns purposes, they ought to be protected if they do not succeed. 10,943. Do you think it could be done in this way, that the Secretary of State for Home Affairs, or the Board of Trade, if a dispute arose between the body of ratepayers, and the municipal body should decide the matter, and that the party should not have the option of going to the Court of Chancery 2–I think that that would be a very wholesome provision. I may mention an instance. In 1864. I advised the corporation, when going to Parliament for an ex- tension bill, that they could not appropriate their funds for the purpose. Two gentlemen in the council then made themselves personally responsible to the bank for 5,000l. to cover the costs, on the risk of our getting our bill. 10,944. Do you think that is a right state of the law —No, I think it is very unjust that it should be so, and applying your suggestions as to the dealing with the public drainage or any expenditure for a large town, it is very important, I think, that the cost of appli- cations to Parliament should not be questioned after re- ceiving the approval of some authorized Officer of State. Town clerks do communicate with each other, and to a certain extent there is united action, but there is very great difficulty in getting the heads of depart- ments to take a case up ; they say that it will form the subject of a General Act shortly; there are two or three things that we have been trying to get done. As to legalising bye-laws which are a sort of local Act of Parliament without the sanction of Parliament, any person can question the validity of those bye-laws if he thinks that they are repugnant to the common law or the statute law. We wanted the Home Secre. tary to pass an Amendment Act by which the bye- laws, after receiving his sanction, shall be considered as law, until they are brought to the Court of Queen's Bench and quashed on certiorari. It was considered a very desirable thing to be done, and we had a short bill prepared, but it was put on the shelf and we have heard nothing of it now for two years; we were told that the thing would have to be dealt with in a general measure. I think that in any general measure with respect to these rivers besides preventing traders and manufacturers from throwing refuse into them, there ought to be a stringent law to compel canal companies to cleanse out their canals also, and again, where rivers are navigable, the companies who enjoy the navigation should be charged with the dredging. 10,945. Do you not think that at present, parties engaged upon canals, navigations, and rivers, are compelled in self-defence, in order to carry on their own trade, to cleanse and dredge them 2–Canals I think, are going back ; they are not so flourishing as they were, and the undertakers are liable to neglect these things and allow the canals to become like duck- ponds instead of canals. I think it is necessary that something should be done so long as they remain canals; they ought not to be allowed to be nuisances; let people either keep them clean or abandon them. 10,946. (Professor Way.) Are not canals generally supplied with water from rivers?—Ours is supplied from the Hebble, so that our sewage water is pumped back into the town. 10,947. Would not the proprietors of the canals say that the filthy state of the river caused the canal to be in so unclean a state –Yes, and they do say so; but still, according to the common law, they must not act so as to increase the nuisance. 10,948. (Mr. Harrison.) If steps are taken to purify the Hebble, and if, consequently, at the place whence they draw their supply the water is purified, will there then remain any objection to thus drawing water from the former source?—Not at all, if you get rid of the cause of the nuisance. 10,949. I see in the return you have handed in, that the amount paid for cleansing ashpits has increased considerably since 1852, how do you account for that 2 -In this way. We only became a local body under the Public Health Act in 1851, and our surveillance has been increasing. The increased amount is indica- tive of better supervision. 10,950. You have stated that there are only 960 waterclosets in the whole town –Yes, at the present time, which are paying to us. 19,951. Are ashpits very common in the borough —Yes, they are. - 10,952. Do you intend to perpetuate them, or do you contemplate the extension of the watercloset system in the poorer dwellings?—At the present time the corporation being short of water do not encourage the watercloset system and will not do so till the new works come into operation, but we are very stringent in our byelaws as to the construction of ashpits and privies. I think among the cottage owners here is rather an objection to waterclosets because they are more liable to get out of order and become a nuisance HALIFAX. J. E. Norris, Esq. 16 Nov. 1866. UT u 2 340 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. J. E. Norris, Esq. 16 Nov. 1866. than ashpits and privies, which are under a system of periodical cleansing. We have about 3,000 ashpits and sometimes a nest of privies empty into one common ashpit. Io,953. Have you experienced any beneficial effects from your water system as to fires in the town of Halifax —Yes, we have fireplugs all over the town, and when a fire occurs we have simply to apply a hose. 10,954. Have you been able to extinguish a fire more rapidly?—Yes, the labour of working the engine under the old system was very great. 10,955. Has the saving of property been consider- able?—Yes, we receive periodical reports from the superintendent of police showing the amount of property destroyed and the amount of property saved. 10,956. Have you had any estimate made of the value of the water power or the compensation you would have to make if the owners of watermills sub- stituted steam power for their water power –We have not had a valuation made. There is no doubt that in this town where coal is so easily procured of all kinds and for such large concerns as those which exist on these streams water power is of very little value. The total available fall on the Hebble is about 405 feet ; that is from Bottom's Mill down to Salter Hebble. 10,957. From your experience in the sale of mills, what do you value that water power at per annum ?— About 5/, per horse power is the rateable value of the appropriated falls. 10,958. Do you think that it could be bought up at that sum ?—I do not know. I am afraid that our heavy penalty of 10!, a day is rather a bonus than otherwise, and that the parties would not like to part with their power; at least some of them might not, but I think that the majority of the mill-owners would act liberally in the matter, however we have not attempted it. 10,959. It is a question whether it might not be worth while to buy up all the water power in these valleys instead of going to a distance for further water- works?—I think as a precaution we ought not to decrease the volume of water that comes down, even supposing we could send down that quantity for flushing and general sanitary purposes alone. It would be very desirable to form impounding reservoirs at the heads of all valleys so as to send down a greater quan- tity in dry seasons for flushing the streams. 10,960. What is the area of the Hebble?—I think the watershed of the Hebble is about 5,600 acres, of which 1,240 are now appropriated for the Ogden reservoir, and when the Mixenden reservoir is made we shall take 190 acres more. 10,961. What part of that area is above the town of Halifax –The watershed above Lee bridge is 6218 acres, that is including the Ovenden valley. 10,962. You stated it would be desirable to prevent towns upon the Calder taking their water supply from the Calder proper ?—Yes. 10,963. Would you apply that to the town of Wakefield 2–Yes. 10.964. If you prevented them from taking water from the Calder, how would you make compensation ? — I think that the whole of the basin of the Calder should be taxed for the purpose of buying up the pumping works at Wakefield. It is most desirable that Wakefield should be debarred from taking water. out of the main drain of this district for its supply. I would tax the whole of the area of the basin of the Calder for the purpose of buying up those works. 10,965. Then they would have to go to another ex- pensive source —Yes, but you may be compelling us in the upper parts of the river to cease polluting the streams, and you may be putting us to expense in carting away the refuse which we now drain into those streams, and if we increase the volume of water to Wakefield and those who are below, I do not see why they should not be put in the same category and be made to seek water from other sources where they can get it pure. I consider that at Durnford bridge, from which point Dewsbury is supplied, they might lay a pipe on to Wakefield. I believe there is sufficient * to supply Wakefield, Dewsbury, and Mir- e101. 10,966. How could Wakefield, taking water from the Calder, affect towns situated below Wakefield 2– So long as there are existing rights above Wakefield, which you cannot possibly prevent, there must be a certain amount of pollution coming down the river— there is no doubt that from manufactories and other sources — from places with a large population like Wakefield—there must be some nuisance; I therefore think it most desirable that for their own sakes you should prevent the people below Wakefield from taking water out of the river. 10,967. And you think it would be fair to tax the whole basin. How far would you extend that 2– Over the whole basin. I consider that the people iving below Wakefield will be benefited by any general measure that may be proposed for the purifi- cation of the river in the same way as those above Wakefield will be; there will be one system which will be as fair to those above as to those below Wakefield. 10,968. (Chairman.) Would you base the taxation on the Poor Law valuation ?–Yes; and borrow the money from the Loan Commissioners at 34 per cent., and extend repayment over a period of 30 or 40 years. I would collect it in the shape of a county rate as the poor rate is collected. 10,969. Is the county rate now paid out of the poor rate 2–It is collected with it, and paid by the overseers of the poor. 10,970. An estimate is made, and the two are col- lected as one rate, and the amount required by the magistrate is paid out?—Yes. 10,971. And you would do the same thing with a rate for the prevention of river pollution ?—Yes. I would adopt the same machinery. The rateable value of the whole of the basin of the Calder being say 1,250,000l., the payment of say 50,000l. to buy up the Wakefield pumping works, would be a fraction of a farthing in the £ extended over 30 years. 10,972. (Professor Way.) Is not the acquisition of water power by companies to some extent a limit to the increase of population in the districts from which the water is taken —No ; I think not. If you take water from high sources, or from sources where it is totally unpolluted, and it comes down to those dis- tricts pure, you do not at all injure the district from which you take it. 10,973. You do not injure it as it exists, but when water from one district is taken to another, will it be possible for the supplying district to grow as it might otherwise have done 2–The water is taken from a high uninhabited district. 10,974. If you rob one valley of water to benefit another, you might prevent the development of the first valley in its lower parts —Yes. 10,975. You have stated that water is very much sought for in Halifax for manufacturing purposes — Yes. 10,976. And that as population grew you found it impossible to supply the wants of trade to the same extent as before because more water was wanted for domestic purposes 2–Yes. 10,977. Increase of population I suppose is depen- dent upon increase of trade –Yes. 10,978. Will there not therefore come a time when increase of population will be checked if you diminish the supply of water for trade purposes —To a certain extent that must be the case, but still if you take water from a high level I do not see why you should not impound it at the heads of the valleys included within the area of the supply, and so provide for the wants of the populations in those valleys. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 341 10,979. Compensation is always estimated in refe- rence to existing, trade, is it not—arrangements for the future are not contemplated 2–No ; compensation is based on the minimum quantity of water passing down the valley from which you are seeking to carry it away. 10,980. The question is whether you should encou- rage the practice of taking water from the highest sources, if you are indifferent to the state of its purity after you have used it, and as it passes away from you through your drain. The Wakefield people now take water from the Calder, and if any remedy for the pollution of rivers could be devised, they would probably have purer water than they have now 2–Of course they would to a certain extent, but still the water of the Calder would be in a very unfit state for their consumption. 10,981. If you extend your collection of water to the highest sources you may be doing that which might not be necessary if the river could be kept clean 2–1 do not think it is possible in manufacturing districts so to purify the water in rivers as to make it fit for town supply—that is for drinking pur- poses. Of course I do not know what chemistry may do. If you can purify sewage so as to make it fit for the public to use it, then I think the problem will be solved ; but if you cannot do that, then I do not think it will be possible to purify the waters of rivers so as to make them fit for use or safe. 10,982. I suppose you know that a large bulk of the water required for manufacturing purposes is used for washing, and that if water is moderately pure and free from sediment it can be used ?–Yes. 10,983. Is it not possible that by proper measures the water which comes from the ordinary streams of this district and others also may after use at manufae- tories be rendered sufficiently pure at the manufactories before it is allowed to leave them —Yes; if you could keep out solid refuse and compel a system of filtration in the manufactories, then you might send the water comparatively pure into the stream and make it available for many purposes, such as washing, but such a law must be general and must apply to the whole country. It will not do to put a certain manu- facturing district under restrictions and allow another district to act with impunity under the old system. 10,984. (Chairman.) Parliament has thought fit to grant Waterworks Acts in different parts of the country as in the case of Liverpool, which obtains its supply from Rivington, which is in another part of Lancashire, 36 miles away, and the growth of manufacturers has been so great about Blackburn that since the cessation of the cotton famine there has posi- tively been a water famine. Mills are shut up and hands thrown out of employment. Do you think, if it could be shown in the case of Blackburn that a much better supply could be obtained from another district, it would be right and proper that that district should be deprived of water which is required for its own mill hands –That takes me back to my original position, that you may go into a water yielding district to the highest ground you can reach, and if the water is so abundant that you can impound it without doing any material injury to the persons living below you may so impound a great volume of pure water which would otherwise run away into the ocean; and serve both districts. 10,985. Do you think that Parliament would be better able to deal with these great questions if the country were divided into drainage areas and Con- servancy Boards were established to take charge of those areas, and to study the question generally and also in its details –Yes. 10,986. So that when any fractional portion of an area was dealt with it should always be dealt with in reference to the whole area —All these valleys have their own specialities. I think that you must put large basins under Conservancy Boards, and those boards ought to study these subjects, as to dividing the country into districts for water supply, &c. 10,987. Are you of opinion that much mischief might be avoided if the control and management of a large area were placed in the hands of a properly constituted body ?–Yes; that would be the object of a Conservancy Board. 10,988. Do you think that a large waste of money might be prevented :-No doubt of it, 10,989. If the law were modified, great and useless expenditures, parliamentary contests, and local struggles might be avoided ?–No doubt of it. If the contemplated body had the power to give its approval to any scheme affecting the water supply of a parti- cular basin, I think that all parties might be satisfied. 10,990. You would have a disinterested tribunal who would exercise an impartial judgment and whose opinion, if a question was referred to a select com- mittee of the House of Commons, would have considerable weight with the members of that committee —Just so. 10,991. You have no doubt that such a system would prevent a wasteful expenditure of money – I believe it would have a very beneficial effect, but you could not get rid of difficulties altogether. The witness withdrew. John CROSSLEY, Esq. (Halifax), examined. 10,992. (Chairman.) How long have you been resi- dent in the town 2–I am a native of the place and so was my father before me. 10,993. Have you any statistics that would show the growth of trade in the valley of the Hebble 2–1 can only say that the growth since my boyhood has been immense on all sides. 10,994. Do you think it has attained to the utmost limit that it is iikely to ?–No, the trade is still growing. 10,995. And may grow to an extent that you would not venture to predict –Yes. 10,996. Does the growth of trade depend in any degree upon the water of the valley?—it immensely depends upon the water. The trade of this town I have no hesitation in saying has been very much restricted and curtailed by the want of a large volume of water. 10,997. The growth of the trade of this district depends in a considerable degree upon the volume and purity of the water –Yes, purity also is a very important element indeed. 10,998. There are, I believe, two sources of supply, that which is impounded from surface drainage, and that which is derived from the strata by pumps and wells 2–Yes, and springs: there are a number of springs which are scarcely ever dry, and which have been secured by the corporation. 10,999. Is coal worked to any extent in this valley P —Very slightly indeed; the bed of coal is very thin ; there is in the Ovenden valley a coal pit, and only one that I know of. 11,000. Where is the coal brought from ?—Princi- pally from the Barnsley district, from the Normanton and the Wakefield districts and Brighouse. 11,001. You have a coal field adjoining, but the town is not situated upon it —No, it is the Halifax bed, but a very thin one; recently it has not been worked, I mean since railways and other kinds of communication have brought in coals from more dis- tant parts. 11,002. Does the firm of which you are a member possess more than one mill –We have a number adjoining each other. - 11,003. Where are they situated 2–In the borough at a place called Dane Clough. 11,004. On the banks of the Hebble or near what stream —They are on the banks of the Hebble. HALIFAX. J. E. Worris, Esq. 16 Nov. 1866. J. Crossley, Esq. r—- U u 3 342 Rivº Rs. COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. J. Crossley, Esq. --- 16 Nov. 1866. --- 11,005. Do you use the water of the Hebble for power of any kind ?—The original mill belonging to my father was exclusively a water power mill. 11,006. Have you that mill still?—Yes, the water- wheel is still there of about 10-horse power. 11,007. What extent of steam power have you added to it?–We have added very largely indeed to it. I think there are six or seven engines each morninally of 60-horse power. 11,008. What amount of coal do you consume per annum ?–About 27,000 tons. 11,009. Do you know what weight of ashes those coals produce?—The weight of ashes and other refuse material which are carted away is about 1,400 tons per annum. 11,010. What do you do with the other ashes?-- All of them are carted away. 11,011. Your ashes would be about 5,000 or 6,000 tons I suppose 2–Yes; I must be in error. -- 11,012. Would the ashes be one-fourth or one-fifth of the whole quantity of coal?–Yes, they are very considerable, it requires many carts to take them away. 11,013. (Professor Way.) Would the ashes be about 12 per cent. of the coal?—That would be very much nearer the mark ; we have a great deal of rubbish and refuse. 11,014. You do not pollute the stream or obstruct it with your ashes?—We have been very careful about that. Many years ago we were, I may say, guilty in that matter; we put our refuse almost exclusively into the beck, and it was washed away, that lasted for a number of years, but we do not put any in now. 11,015. You cart it away ?–Yes. 11,016. Have you the means of disposing of it, or is it a cost to you to cart it away?—Yes, it is a very considerable cost to us; we have been obliged to get space wherever we could ; we have sometimes had to art the rubbish two or three miles, but latterly we have met with some spare ground not very distant, and we have conveyed it there. 11,017. You make a spoil heap of it I suppose – Yes; formerly we used to let the soapsuds go into the river. - 11,018. At what cost per ton is the rubbish taken away? To Leeds it costs us I think 1s 6d, or some- thing like that. 11,019. What number of hands do you employ — Of men, women, and children at Halifax, about 4,300. 11,020. What arrangement have you for privies ?— We think we have a very perfect arrangement. 11,021. Do you pollute the river in that respect – Not in the slightest degree. Take our sheds, for instance, we have a sort of long passage under a shed on which the soil is deposited, and during the night it is conveyed away by tramway to the extreme end of the shed for deposit in a tank, and from that it is carted away on to the land. 11,022. Land of your own –Yes; and we sell a great deal of it; we turn it to account. 11,023. You can carry on your great works with your numerous hands without polluting the stream which flows past you ?–Yes, we have not so polluted it for many years in the slightest degree. 11,024. What volume of water do you use on your premises?—What we raise by pumping ourselves from wells which we have sunk and drift ways which we have made (we have bored in all directions), what we pump from the river itself, and what we take from the corporation will altogether amount to something like 1,000,000 gallons a day. 11,025. In 24 hours?–Yes, for all uses. 11,026. How much of that do you take from the corporation?—At present they have restricted us ; the fact is, we have not been able to get what we wanted. 11,027. If they could sell you more you would take more ?–Yes; latterly we have not had more than about 8,000 gallons a day, but we have taken as much as 80,000 gallons a day. 11,028. For what purpose is that used ?–For wash- ing, or for dyeing, or printing. 11,029. Is that water pure and soft —It is very nice and good water, excellent water. 11,030. About what volume do you raise from the river per day —I have not got the particulars, but we raise a very considerable quantity; we also wash yarns with it. We use an immense quantity for that purpose, and the waste water is immediately discharged down the river in not a very much worse state than it was when it came to us. We must have a certain quantity to get the requisite purity. 11,031. Is the river water at any time objectionable —We could not use what comes from the Ovenden stream at all; we take water from the Whitley stream, our works are just at the junction of the two. 11,032. Are there works situated upon those streams above you ?–Yes. 11,033. Do they pollute the waters before they come down to you?—The water of the Ovenden brook is polluted to such an extent that it is perfectly useless to us. 11,034. If restrictions were put upon these manu- facturers (assuming that it is found that they can carry on their trade beneficially without polluting these streams) would those restrictions be a benefit to you as a manufacturer –Yes, a very great benefit. 11,035. Would you consent to be put under similar restrictions requiring you to send your water down to your neighbours as pure as you received it?—We should be glad to be shown the art and mystery of doing that. 11,036. If science can point out any means by which you can purify the water and yet carry on your trade without serious loss you would be glad to do so 2–We should be delighted to do it. 11,037. Are there attached to the mills above you private reservoirs, or impounding reservoirs?—Yes, there are several. - 11,038. Are there any attached to your mills?—We have had one. 11,039. What volume of water wiii it contain P-We have now covered it over with a shed, and it is very much circumscribed; it was a very large one formerly, I cannot say what size it is, 11,040. When any of those mill reservoirs become choked with sediment, which I assume they do, what is done?–In a time like this the owners would open their sluices and set a number of men to work to get rid of that deposit and flush it into the river. 11,041. Supposing that floods do not occur, do they ever flush out their reservoirs at other times —Some- times they do, to the great grief and annoyance and injury of the parties lower down. 11,042. Do you do a little flushing in your own reservoir 2–We have done such a thing, but I think we avoid it ; I am quite sure that we do. 11,043. You strive to do what you can –Yes, 11,044. You are subject to pollutions which are caused by the flushings above —Yes. 11,045. Formerly you did flush your own tank into the river ?—Yes; but latterly we never do so unless in a very extreme time like the present, when our neighbours would not be injured. 11,046. Suppose this state of things, which will apply to many rivers. Say that a river is five miles long, and that there are 10 mills upon it, each of them having an impound reservoir attached to the mill, and each of them accumulating refuse. As the law at present stands, or rather as the practice is, the upper mill owner flushes his reservoir and sends the mud into the stream ; the second catches a portion of it, and the third, the fourth and fifth, and so on, each in his turn does the same thing, each of them in flushing his own reservoir is benefited for the time being, and injures all his neighbours below 2–Yes, that is really the case. 11,047. Does it not appear to you that if each of those individuals was compelled by law to dispose of what mud came to him in some other way than by passing it into the river it would be a benefit to all, Rºy ERs commission :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 343 because although the first cost might be something considerable, each would derive an advantage by having less mud to deal with ?–We should be very glad if such a plan of proceedings was enforced by law ; how- ever inconvenient it might be, we should be delighted to have it carried out. 11,048. Supposing that by your own arrangements you prevent pollution from waterclosets, and also pol- lution by ashes, you would be also desirous of prevent- ing pollution by accumulations of mud —Yes. 11,049. Do you think that your good example would be so powerful, that all your neighbours above and below you would follow it —I cannot say. 11,050. I am sure that you are aware that the example is not followed 2–1 know that it is not. 11,051. Can you state what volume of water you pump, and the cost of it 2–I should say that nearly all or a very large portion of the water which is pumped up to be conveyed to pipes in our works, is afterwards used for washing and other purposes; but a great part of the entire water consumed, will be used for condensing purposes, and that is taken from the river direct to our engines. 11,052. What is the material that you use principally in your works?–Wool, cotton, and linen. 11,053. Can you state what is the annual weight of the three kinds of material that you use?—Our con- sumption of wool is close upon 400 packs a week, a pack weighing 240 lbs. 11,054. What weight of soap do you use?–Very large quantities. I cannot give you the precise quantities. 11,055. What becomes of the refuse water after the materials are washed 2–I must draw a distinction between the washing of wool and the washing of pieces; when we wash wool we use soap, and latterly we have extracted the soap again. 11,056. You use soap and oil?—Yes. 11,057. What is the character and quality of the soap that is used ?–There is hard and soft soap. 11,058. Can you give us any idea of the weights * —No. 11,059. What do you do with the refuse water — The refuse from the wool-yarn washing we convey into tanks and extract the oily matter from it, and the result is, that comparatively pure water is passed down the brook. 11,060. Is that operation carried out by your firm 2 —Yes, it is. 11,061. Do you know what weight of grease you extract per week, or month, or year?—Something like two tons a week. 11,062. Is it worth about 18l. a ton P_Yes; that is about the price. 11,063. Do you sell the grease ?–Yes. 11,064. What becomes of the sediment remaining after the extraction of the grease?—It is carried away. 11,065. And sold to the farmers?—I cannot say. 11,066. What weight is it 2–1 think the farmers do not quite like it, and that it is accumulating; we are obliged to destroy it in some way. I know that it is not taken away so readily as we could wish. 11,067. You do not carry it into the river ?–No. 11,068. (Professor Way.) Perhaps it does not go direct to the farmers; it may pass through the hands of the manure makers ?–We have tried it ; my %rother had some of it sent to his estate, and he has tested it ; he does not find that there is any great commercial value in it. 11,069. The water that comes from the pieces goes away into the river ?–Yes. 11,070. You cannot give the weight of that refuse * —No. 11,071. (Chairman.) Do you make your own gas —Yes; a large portion of it, but not entirely ; we take part from the corporation. 11,072. What becomes of the refuse that you make in your gas manufacture?—It is sold ; the ammoniacal part is partly used by ourselves and partly sold. 11,073. Do you pollute the stream with anything from the gas manufacture ?–No. 11,074. Do you suffer any injury from any gasworks above you?—I cannot say that we do. 11,075. Did you hear the evidence of the town clerk as to the form which future legislation might take with regard to river basins 2–I heard most of what he said. 11,076. Have you at all studied the question of how the pollution of the river is to be prevented in future ? —I have seen for many years that the evil is augment- ing, as manufactories have been established upon the banks of our river. I can see the importance of atten- tion being drawn to this matter, and I hope some plan will be devised for mitigating the evil; but I must say that after all the thought I have been able to give to the subject, it has appeared to me to be surrounded with great difficulties. I have been a member of the corporation for many years, and I know that the arrangements for the sewage of the town were laid down upon the basis of ultimately taking away the soil, or the injurious portions of the sewage, so as not really to pollute the river. The outfall was placed by Mr. Ranger very much upon the basis that some- thing would be done to utilize portions of the town sewage; but the difficulty of disposing of dyewater discharged from our dyeworks, is a difficulty of which I must say I do not see any solution. 11,077. Did you see in this morning's paper an ab- stract of Mr. Ripley’s evidence of yesterday, as given at Bradford 2–I did not. 11,078. Do you accept the estimate of the annual value of the woollen manufactures of Yorkshire made by Mr. Ripley, as president of the Bradford Local Chamber of Commerce –I should not be able to an- swer him, I am afraid, as to the figures, although I have had occasion to get up some statistics of that kind for this very district. 11,079. Have you any recollection what those statistics were 2–I am afraid I have not. 11,080. Would you be surprised to learn that Mr. Ripley estimates the value of the worsted trade at something like 25,000,000l. annually —Is that the entire worsted trade of Yorkshire P 11,081. The entire worsted trade of Yorkshire; the entire worsted and woollen trade of the United Kingdom is upwards of 64,000,000l. annually. If that enormous annual value is involved in the trade of the country, I assume that you would say that any regulations to interfere with it should be very care- fully considered 2–I should indeed. 11,082. That they should be considered with the utmost care and judgment 2–It is of the utmost im- portance. Where such a large mass of artizans and working people are dependent for their means of sub- sistence upon trade of that magnitude, it must be self- evident that to interfere with it needlessly would be a very great crime. But something ought to be done to protect our rivers from the evils which, I am afraid, if continued in their present form, will be most injurious to health and to life. I am quite sure that the state of the lower part of this town at the outfall is a matter which requires very great attention. 11,083. The question is bound up with various con- siderations. First of all there is the health of the dis- trict, and then there is the trade; and those two con- siderations are mixed up with the present modes of carrying on the trade which result at present in a certain amount of injurious pollution ?–Yes. 11,084. And the question will be how that pollution can be diminished so as to benefit the inhabitants in their health and not to ruinously affect the manufac- turers in their operations —That, I think, is the desideratum, and to get a solution for that matter is of vital importance. - 11,085. Persons generally judge more from them- selves than from what is without. You having regu- lated your own enormous works so as not to pollute the stream which passes by you, may not have turned HALIFAX. J. Crossley, Esq. 16 Nov. 1866. U u 4 344 Rivers CoMMIssion :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. J. Crossleu, Esq. 16 Nov. 1866. your attention so exclusively to this question as we have been obliged to do. Would you be surprised to hear from this Commission that at present in York- shire over many scores of miles of your rivers all the ashes created at manufactories are poured in. If a new mill is to be built, and the river happens to be the nearest point, the material excavated from the foundations is wheeled in. In the case of highways bounding the district the handiest means of getting rid of the road scrapings is taken—they are carted and tipped into the river. Scores of dyers and manu- facturers pour in every part of their refuse without attempting to purify it or to utilize it. From the in- tercepted soapsuds, taking Yorkshire generally, at the present time 100,000l. per annum is returned back to the manufacturers by contractors for being allowed to deal with that soap refuse which formerly polluted the streams, and the estimate is that at the present moment another 100,000l. value of grease in the form of soapsuds is allowed to go into the rivers and to pollute the streams ?—Yes. 11,086 Do you think that it would be any hardship if a measure were adoped to compel (I use the word “ compel” advisedly) the utilization of that soap re- fuse, both that which is already voluntarily utilized and is paying 100,000l. a year, and that which, if utilized, might pay another 100,000l. a year? You would say that you at great cost have to carry on your manufacture by carting away your ashes: do you think that any individual who is now passing ashes into the river should be allowed to do so on the plea that it would cost him money to cart them away or otherwise dispose of them, and that he had alway, been accustomed to do as he does now 2–I should say that so far as regards the articles you have men- tioned, soapsuds, ashes, road scrapings, and all those things, there ought to be power in the hands of the authorities of any given district, at once and without any delay, to put an end to that state of things. I very well remember the time on the stream where our works are situated when it was the uni- versal practice to throw ashes into it. We did it our- selves, as our neighbours did it; and it was such an evil that the manufacturers associated themselves together for the purpose of common protection, and to prevent it. We had several lawsuits upon that point. A decision was given in one instance to our prejudice, and it was the means, I believe, of some- what dispiriting and breaking up our association. It was in the case of a person on the Calder (for our as- sociation applied both to the Calder and to the Hebble) and judgment was given against us on the ground that the person pouring his ashes into the river had prac- tised the thing for a period exceeding 20 years, and the judge ruled that as he had acquired this right he might continue so to exercise it ; on that ground our association got a little discouraged. But in the valley in which our own works are situated all the manufac- turers agreed, by giving their signatures, that they would cease to put in ashes, and I do not think that that is now carried on to any great extent, at all events. | 1,087. That would be binding simply as regarded the number of firms signing that bond –Just so. 11,088. It would not affect persons beyond the range of that bond either above or below you ?–No. 11,089. Neither would it affect the other parts of Yorkshire 2–No. 11,090. Therefore, although half a dozen or a dozen or any number of manufacturers might combine, it would still leave the great bulk of the offenders at liberty to pursue their own courses?—It would, and I think that it is a very great evil. I see constantly in other parts of the district that the thing is done daily and in open day, and I think that the sooner that is put an end to the better. 11,091. If the whole of the pollutions cannot be kept out of the river, do you think that we may anticipate, that through the assistance of this com- mission, Parliament may be enabled to legislate so as to prevent a vast amount of the existing evil?—I am perfectly certain of it. 11,992. And not to injure the trade of the district 2 -Not at all. I am quite sure that ashes, and a great variety of the injurious matter which is now allowed to find its way into the river, might with the greatest possible advantage be kept out of it, and as it has been done with soapsuds, so it is just possible that chemists may devise some means of utilizing some other in- jurious articles, and turning them to some practical account. But I am quite clear that so far as regards ashes, and a great variety of other things, we should be only too glad to be compelled to keep them out of the river. 11,093. Then as to sewage; you, representing a firm employing as large a number of hands as most of the great works in the Yorkshire valleys, have found means of utilizing the soil refuse from your popula- tion, and turning it, if not to a very beneficial use, yet to use, without polluting the river ?–Yes. 11,094. If it can be shown that there are thousands and tens of thousands of individuals in works situated at no greater disadvantage than your works, the sewage of whom is carelessly passed into the running waters of the district to pollute the streams, as far as it goes down, do you think that we might say that others should do what you have done?–It is quite easy, and it is not only easy, but it is desirable and important that it should be done. 11,095. And it would not be an obstruction to your trade if you were put under restrictions to that extent 2 —It would not. 11,096. First, you might keep out the sewage, and it would not be an obstruction to your trade 3– Just so. 11,097. And then you could keep out the ashes — They might be turned to profitable account. We make money by them, but of course not a great deal. 11,098. The water containing chemical matter may raise a more difficult question ?–That is a more diffi. cult subject. 11,099. You pollute the water by the colouring matter, that is to say, by mordants of various kinds, by acids and by other matters which enter into che- mical combination with the water 2–Yes. That is a matter which is, I think, surrounded by a great deal of difficulty. I think that there is a great deal of dye- wood which might be abstracted and not be allowed to go into the river in the way that it does now. In our case, we do not allow it to go into the river, so far as we are able to prevent it : we cart it away. - 11,100 At present there are hundreds of thousands of pounds of dyewood, both chip and rasped wood, sent down the stream 2–Yes; which ought not to go, and need not go. 11,101. Is your dyewood used in the chip form or in the rasped form —Both. 11,102. And you can retain both kinds 2—We can yery largely. I think that the chip could be altogether kept out, and that the ground-wood could to a very large extent be kept out. 11,103. Can you in anyway utilize the chips, or get rid of them by mixing them with the fuel ?–We burn them. 11,104. You put them under the boilers ?–Yes. 11,105. Is the rasped wood capable of being utilized in that way to any extent?—I do not think that it is, because it comes from the works in such a wet form. 11,106. And you cart it away —Yes, we take it along with the ashes, and make spoil of it. 11,107. Have you had any demand in this valley for ashes by the Railway Companies 2–We had during the construction of the railway, and we occa- sionally have now, but it is very rare; at one time it was a great outlet to us and a great convenience. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 345 11,108. (Mr. Harrison.) Will you be kind enough to tell us the depth at which you pump the water in your well ?–I do not think that any of our wells are very deep, but it is a department with which I have not much to do; perhaps 25 or 30 yards is the depth, but we have mined a good deal under our own pro- perty, and in that way we have got a very large amount of water. 11,109. Can you give us the cost at which you are for pumping the water –I am afraid that I could not speak with very great accuracy, but I think that it is under a penny per thousand gallons, or about a penny. 11,110. You have given us the weight of wool which you use in your works, can you give us the weight of cotton –We use I should think from 25 to 30 tons of wool a week, and I should think that we use cotton to the same extent ; perhaps not quite so much. 11,111. Can you give us the weight of oil which you use –I shall be happy to furnish you with all that information accurately. 11,112. Can you furnish us with the weight of solid dye woods –I shall be very happy to furnish that information. 11,113. Did you hear the remark of the Town Clerk as to the necessity for preventing the towns from taking their water supply from the Calder proper ?—I did. 11,114. Do you agree with him in his proposition that the town of Wakefield should be compensated by the whole of the area of the Calder for their water- works, so that they might be enabled to go to some other source for their supply 2–I am not prepared to say that I should exactly endorse that opinion. I think that a supply from the river in its present state is altogether out of the question for domestic use. 11,115. If the tributaries are not polluted in future as they are now, the Calder at Wakefield might be restored to a comparative state of purity, and not be an objectionable source of supply —So long as we have so many dyeworks on the line, and so long as that large body of water is turned from the manu- factories into the river, I should very much doubt whether any town so near as Wakefield could with any kind of satisfaction use the water for domestic purposes. - 11,116. Might not that question affect the towns below Wakefield more than the area of the Calder above Wakefield. It might affect Castleford, and Pontefract, and perhaps Goole. It might be an advantage to the town of Wakefield to be paid so much to go to another source of supply –If any one town comes in for compensation there were other towns along the line which I have no doubt would be very eager claimants. - 11,117. (Professor Way.) If you now find a great difficulty in water supply, and if that difficulty in- creases for domestic purposes, the tendency of any measure for preventing impurities would be at the same time to make it easier for towns to be supplied with domestic water –No doubt of it. 11,118. Because the water which is now used for manufacturing purposes would be liberated 2–0 uite SO. - 11,119. Therefore the point to aim at might pos- sibly be to prevent impurity, instead of allowing impurity to be made, and then going to a fresh sup- ply –Quite so. 11,120. At all events, I suppose that in your ex- perience, water which is not so impure as the present streams and rivers in this neighbourhood which may not be fit for domestic supply, may still be fit for manufacturing purposes —Yes; for condensing pur- poses, and if not very much polluted with dye-water, for dyeing purposes. The difficulty which has pre- sented itself to my mind in keeping separate the dye- water, and passing it on without its being used for a considerable distance, is that those who have water power on the line, and to whom it is an object to have their wheels propelled, would say that this water was just as good for them as power as if it was ever so pure. 11,121. But you agree with the town clerk in saying that the water power as compared with the steam power of the district is very inconsiderable —It is very in- considerable indeed. It is getting less and less, I think. 11,122. (Mr. Harrison.) In your own case I think that your water power is about 10 horse power ?—Yes. 11,123. Whereas the steam power which you have erected is 360 horse power —Yes. 11,124. For that 360 horse steam power which you have, what volume of water do you suppose you eva- porate in the course of a day?—About 120,000 gallons. 11,125. What would be the volume of water which you would use for your 10-horse water power –I am afraid to say. - 11,126. It depends upon your fall —Entirely so. I really could not give you that information. 11,127. (Professor Way.) The chairman has very properly called your attention to the value of the woollen and worsted trade of the United Kingdom, which was represented to us as being something like 64,000,000l. per annum. A very minute percentage of that money would constitute a very large sum, would it not *—I should think so. 11,128. The condition of this water, I suppose, is a very important item in the acquisition of this 70,000,000l. of money per annum ?—Certainly. 11,129. Could not that trade afford a reasonable amount of money annually for the purification of the water which they use 2–The great difficulty is in showing them how to purify the water. 11,130. Assuming it to be possible would not the interest of the trade itself bear a certain tax 2–I think that it would. It is such an evil that if it can be shown that by any remedy we can get rid of it at a small expenditure the proposition ought to be enter- tained. 11,131. Whilst the general public would benefit by the purification of this water would the trade itself benefit also by it —I have no doubt that individuals having mills and manufactories upon the line would be benefited by it. 11,132. (Mr. Harrison.) For infstance, taking your own case. I think you said that you received from the Water Company, when they could let you have it, 80,000 gallons a day ?–Yes. 11,133. What did you pay for that 2–At the time when we used such a large quantity the corporation had an enormous supply, and they put down the price at a very low sum I think, 3d. per thousand gallons. 11,134. Would not that be about 11. a day or 300l. a year even at that low price –It would. 11,135. If the brook had not been polluted as you say the Hebble brook is polluted, could you have obtained that volume of water from that brook for your purposes at a much less cost than that ?—We could have had it without any cost at all, for it would have been ready for pumping from the surface of the river. 11,136. In that case you have data by which you can reckon to some extent the cost to which you are put by the pollution of the river above you ?—Yes, I should think that we have spent 5,000l. or 6,000l. upon those wells alone. We have spent very large sums in ac- quiring properties higher up with a view to protect what is called the Ovenden brook. We have made an arrangement with one party who had a dyehouse on the stream and it has ceased to work, and we pay an annual sum in consideration of its not being started again. 11,137. Can you put those different items together and let us have them, so as to show what is really the cost to which you have gone in obtaining the pure water which you require for your manufacturing purposes 2–1 shall be very glad to furnish you with all that information. We have been so hampered for the want of pure water that we have had to buy the thing up. We have bought lands and I think two mills higher up, and the right which was acquired by other parties upon the land. 11,138. If you put all those items together, they X x 17159.-2, HALIFAX. J. Crossley, Esq. 16 Nov. 1866. 346 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. J. Crossley, Esq. 16 Nov. 1866. Col. E. Akroyd, M.P. - appear to come to a considerable sum —They would do so. 11,139. And it would represent a considerable annual charge —It would. 11,140. A charge much larger in all probability than any expenditure to which you would be put in purifying even your dyeworks?—I think that that is very likely. II,141. (Professor Way.) You have spoken of the necessity of the pure water for your purposes. May we take it that for some part of your operations purity means cleanness, that is to say, that water without sediment in it and without colour would be sufficiently good? — Quite so. For some purposes we require water transparent and quite pure, that is for what we call steeping purposes; the object of steeping is to extract the brimstone out of the yarns, which are pure white, and any colour whatever, even of mere mud or sand, will be very injurious indeed—anything which would give the water any kind of colour. 11,142. But a water which was not chemically pure might be still pure enough for many of your purposes? —Quite so. 11,143. The water coming down the stream, from works above you, if divested of its absolute colour, might be fit for your purposes?—For many purposes we should use it extensively. 11,144. (Chairman.) Is there anything further which you wish to add 2-I do not know that anything occurs to me. I have been very much pleased to learn that this Commission has been instituted, and I am looking forward with very great hope that some practical result may come out of it, for I am quite satisfied that the matter is one which really needed investigation, to say the least, in order that some measure, if possible, may be devised to remedy the evils to which the streams and the parties on the line are subject. I am very happy that the matter has been taken up in this way, and I hope that something may come of it. The witness withdrew. Colonel Edward AKRoy D., M.P. (Halifax), examined. 11,145. (Chairman.) You represent the borough of Halifax in Parliament 2–I do. 11,146. How long have you been engaged in manu- factures in this part of the country?—Our first works in this neighbourhood were at a place called Bowling Dyke immediately above North Bridge; they consisted of a mill turned by steam power, originally 30-horse power. That mill was purchased by my father in 1817. 11,147. And I assume that it has been very largely extended since that period?—The space at Bowling Dyke is limited, but in other localities our works have been extended, 11,148. Have you been engaged with your father in manufactures since your boyhood —Yes, my father migrated to Halifax in 1817 from Brook House, on the upper branches of the same stream. 11,149. Do you remember the condition of the stream at that period 2–1.do. 11,150. What was it as compared with what it is now 2–Of course the river was very much purer at that time than it is now. I may state, in order to put the matter rather more in detail, that in 1817 the works above us on the stream were those of Messrs. Crossley, to which Mr. Crossley has already referred, and then above those I think there were upon the Ovenden beck the dyeworks of Messrs. Crossley, and subsequently the dyeworks of Messrs. Rawson. Then on the Wheatly beck there were the dyeworks of Mr. Irving. Our mill is situated im- mediately below that of Messrs. Crossley, a short distance below the confluence of the Wheatly beck and the Ovendenbeck, which after their conjunction form the stream of the Hebble. 11,151. What is the special manufacture carried on in your works –The worsted manufacture. Origi- nally that manufacture was confined to goods made of wool exclusively. Within my own recollection, what is called the mixed goods trade has been introduced, one portion of the material being cotton and the other portion wool, and I believe that the first manufacturer to introduce it was my uncle, who had his works upon the same stream a little higher up. - 11,152. What number of hands are at present em- ployed upon your premises –We employ altogether about 4,000 as nearly as I can make out ; that includes adults and children, and short timers, but at one place. at Bowling Dyke, we have in round numbers about from 800 to 900 workpeople employed. 11,153. Do you use water very largely for your operations?—We use it for condensing purposes and for scouring wool. 11,154. What steam power do you employ at pre- sent?—At the mill at Bowling Dyke the nominal horse power is simply two engines of 45 horse power each, making 90 horse power, the actual horse power will be 380; that difference is the difference between the nominal and the actual horse power. 11,155. What weight of coal do you consume 2—At Bowling Dyke about 2,500 tons per annum. 11,156. What amount of cinders result from the combustion of the coals?—About 400 tons, as nearly as I can make it out. 11,157. What becomes of those ashes 2–In former days the whole of those ashes were thrown into the brook; they were generally placed at one side of the brook and left there for the chance of a flood like that which we have unfortunately to-day to sweep them away. I was one of the parties who joined the asso- ciation to which Mr. Crossley has referred, and since that period we have carted all our ashes away, so that at present none of our ashes are put into the brook. 11,158. Do you know what it costs per load to eart those ashes away ?—I think that you cannot fix a definite sum, because it depends very much upon the distance to which we have to lead the ashes. To my firm it was not very costly because we had an old quarry, a sort of hollow space, which we filled up in that way. 11,159. Then it costs you the expense of conveyance between your works and the quarry 2–Yes; but as that quarry is pretty nearly filled up, the expense is rather greater now ; it is a fluctuating sum. 11,160. But the ashes are taken away at a cost to yourselves?—Yes. 11,161. What arrangements have you for getting rid of the soil matter from the hands employed upon your premises; have you waterclosets?—Wehave both water. closets and privies. Our mill has been extended, and in the new portion we have a cart underneath the privies. The mill at Bowling Dyke is built perpendicularly, it is not on the shed plan ; it is a spinning mill, and the privies are arranged one above the other, the soil falls down a sort of conduit, at the foot of which is placed a cart into which the excrements fall; sometimes we put a deodorizing powder into it. That is one set of privies. The other set is in the nature of waterclosets, the contents of which fall into the brook. I was in- duced to try the waterclosets from the fact that the smell from the privies was exceedingly offensive, and found its way up to the door so that the workers very near the door of the privy were very much annoyed by the smell; in short, we found the privies a more objectionable mode as regards the workers than the watercloset. - 11,162. But the watercloset, so far as it goes, tends to the pollution of the brook below you ?–No doubt it does. 11,163. Have you seen any of the earthclosets which have been recently introduced —I have heard a good deal of them, and I had an opportunity yesterday, which I regret I could not avail myself of, of inspect- ing the earth closets of the West Riding prison at RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 347 Wakefield. I understood from the governor, Captain Armytage, that those earthclosets had been working exceedingly well. 11,164. I assume that you are a magistrate of the county —I am one of the visiting justices, and I attended the meeting yesterday in that capacity. In comparing the one mode with the other, allow me to say that in our waterclosets we have underneath an outfall pipe a sort of grating formed to catch all the more solid matter, the liquid matter finding its way through. I requested my engineer to make an experi- ment there of putting a small filter bed, having a layer of sand for a certain distance, so that the water failing through the pipe should pass into the filter, and by that means we shall be able to reserve all the solid matter. 11,165. I think that you have been a member of Parliament for several years —I was member for Huddersfield from 1857 to 1859, and I was returned for Halifax in the present Parliament. 11,166. You have taken part in the Imperial Par- liament in legislating upon the sewage question upon previous occasions —Yes. 11,167. I think that you have served as member upon some of the Select Committees appointed to inquire into this very question of the utilization of sewage 2–1 served in 1858 on “The Select Commit- tee appointed to take into consideration Mr. Gurney’s Report on the state of the River Thames, and such other suggestions as they may deem it expedient to entertain for its purification, especially in the imme- diate vicinity of the Houses of Parliament.” 11,168. You had evidence before you upon that Committee from certain persons who were supposed to have special knowledge upon those questions – Yes. 11,169. One amongst the number was Mr. Lawes, the great agriculturist —Yes; and I may say that Mr. Lawes's evidence was taken at my suggestion, unade to the chairman, Mr. Kendall. I had heard a good deal of the mode adopted for purifying the stream which runs by Leicester, and I wanted to have evidence brought before the Committee as to the mode of purification so adopted, with the view of ascertaining whether that mode was applicable to the river Thames, and in fact generally throughout the country. I may say that as a member of the Com- mittee I was quite satisfied that the mode adopted at Leicester was capable of application to the river Thames and elsewhere; and the only objection to that mode which I heard advanced was that the pre- cipitation of the filtered matter was not serviceable for agricultural purposes—that is to say that the refuse carried away was not commercially valuable ; but as regards the primary object, the purification of the stream passing by Leicester, the evidence proved that the result was perfectly satisfactory. In fact, so successful was the experiment at Leicester, that trout, of which formerly there had been a great many in the stream running by Leicester, and which had vanished long ago, after the adoption of this mode of deodorization, came back to the stream and found it fit for their habitation. In the evidence given by Mr. Lawes, which seems applicable to the terms of the present Commission, reference was made to 30 different modes of deodori- zation, one being that adopted at Leicester, where the purification of the water was carried out very much by precipitation by the introduction of cream of lime. Another mode was that adopted at Cheltenham by filtration, and a question was put to Mr. Lawes with regard to the comparative value of the residuum from these two processes. Mr. Lawes said that at Lei- cester the residuum was comparatively valueless. The question was put to Mr. Lawes which of the two plans he considered the best. Mr. Lawes said that he considered the Cheltenham system superior to the Leicester system. Then the next question was this, “Have they tried it as a matter of commercial specu- lation.” The answer was, “Yes; and their informa- tion was this, that it nearly paid its expenses.” That is the filtration mode at Cheltenham. “They there filtered the sewage and mixed the residuum with the ashes, the dust, and dry substances of the town, and sold it to the farmers at 3s. and 4s. a ton, and I think that if they could sell it for 5s, it would pay the expenses.” 11,170. With regard to that experiment, have you found that the effluent water from those filtering tanks carries away at least 9/10ths of the fertilizing matter and that the sludge taken out mixed with the ashes bears a very small relative value to the whole value of the ingredients which are drained from the town. Since that report was made the farmers have grown a little wiser by experience, and they will not give the price which they were paying at that time P —Just so. 11,171. (Professor Way.) The Royal Commission appointed for the purpose of making inquiry divided the subject into two questions;–first, will the process pay, and secondly, if it will not pay what will be the expense. We considered our primary inquiry to be how sewage should be dealt with ?–And that I pre- sume is the object of the present commission ? 11,172. It is not necessary to make the process a profitable transaction in order to deal with sewage 2– Exactly. 11,173. (Chairman.) I presume that you have a copy of our present commission, if not I will pass one over to you. You will see what the terms of the commission are. It states; “We have deemed it expe- dient for divers good causes and considerations that a Commission should forth with issue for the purpose of inquiring how far the present use of rivers or running waters in England, for the purpose of carrying off the sewage of towns and populous places and the refuse arising from industrial processes and manufactures can be prevented without risk to the public health or serious injury to such processes and manufactures, and how far such sewage and refuse can be utilized or got rid of otherwise than by discharge into rivers or running waters” (it says nothing about profit or loss but that the water is to be got rid of if it cannot be utilized) “ or rendered harmless before reaching them; and also for the purpose of inquiring into the effect on the drainage of lands” and so on. You therefore see that the commission puts before us the question of utilizing the sewage if possible, and if not, of getting rid of it ; and that in all cases it is to be done so that it shall not be injurious to the processes and manu- factures carried on, but it is no part of our business to establish a case that sewage can be got rid of profitably?—But still if it can be got rid of profitably of course all the better. 11,174. If profit arises out of it so much to the advantage of every person concerned 2–Yes. Refer- ring again to the inquiry by the Select Committee, I may say that I instituted an experiment with a view to ascertain whether at the outfalls of the existing sewers an apparatus could be arranged to deodorize the matter, and to pass the water into the river com- paratively clear. I do not mean to say free from liquid manure, which perhaps is hardly visible to the eye, but, at all events free from all offensive qualities. 11,175. To clarify it from the sediment 2–Exactly: that was my object. I was in communication with Mr. Gurney, and at my request he prepared me a small model of a barge from the model of a barge floating on the river. At one end of this small model I got the very worst specimen of the sewage liquid matter from the London sewers which was almost as black as ink. This was put into a large vessel and let into the barge at one end by a tap. I subdivided the barge into three divisions, the first had a comparatively open mesh, the second was a very fine mesh, and the third partition was divided from the end by a narrow filter bed three or four inches wide ; in the last division I introduced cream of lime and I allowed the sewage to flow through this barge. It came in at one end in this black state and it went out at the other end perfectly clean. My object was to illustrate the possibility of filtration of sewage or precipitation in a very small space, and to let the liquid matter flow HALIFAX. Col. E. Akroyd, M.P. 16 Nov. 1866. X x 2 348 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. Col. E. Akroyd, M.P. 16 Nov. 1866. through until the floating barge should be charged with semi-solid matter, with the view that when one barge was so charged you might pass another barge under the outfall of the sewer in the same way, and float the barges up and down the river, and get rid of the nuisance in that way. 11,176. If you have perused the report published by the commission, of which Mr. Lawes and myself were members, you have found that that commission adopted that same idea upon a very gigantic scale. We showed how the river could be embanked and how the interior of the embankment could be made a filter bed to intercept the sewage, and to let the effluent water pass into the Thames, and that the sludge could be worked up by a screw pump and passed into carts or barges. But although we were a Royal Commission employed upon that very question our suggestions were never noticed —My impression certainly as a member of that committee was that when we were arriving at a most interesting portion of our inquiry showing the possibility of deodorization of London sewage, at a comparatively small cost, our inquiry was cut short. I am aware that the ostensible ground was that the Session was drawing to a close, but my candid impression is that influences were brought to bear upon that committee with the view of shortening our proceedings, and of getting a report which by no means coincided with my views, for the purpose of sanctioning this immense outlay for inter- cepting sewers. The whole system of intercepting sewers struck me as being radically bad, for it proposed to draw out of the Thames, say at the upper part of London, a very large quantity of water at point A. and to pass it down to point B., at Greenwich or wherever it may be, and thus the intervening portion of the river between points A. and B. might be com- paratively desiccated. If you draw out a large portion of the stream, it is evident that at low water between A and B the volume of water will be small, and there will be a difficulty in the navigation of the Thames. And you only shift your difficulty, for I believe that the deodorization piecemeal is better carried on than when applied to a flood of sewage which must be a nuisance at the particular point where the outfall OCCUII’S. 11,177. Our present inquiry is to deal with the rivers and streams in Yorkshire, they are of very much smaller volume than the Thames 2–Yes. 11,178. They will therefore bear loss of water with much greater difficulty —That is true. 11,179. Water is necessary both for power and for use ; supposing then that any body of engineers should take it into their heads that interception upon the gigantic scale which has been carried out in London is necessary, and should propose to take up the foul waters from the several points and to convey them down to some point below, thereby depriving the inter- vening portions of the river of a large volume of water, what sort of effect would it have upon the manufac- turing industry of this country P-It is clear that unless you can obtain water from other sources you prevent the possibility of mills being erected at those parts of the stream which are dried up in that way, and so far you injure the prosperity of the locality. 11,180. You cannot with any advantage repeat the mode of purification which has been adopted for the metropolis, I mean a great intercepting system 2– Certainly not. 11,181. It has been stated that there are rivers where if you intercept the polluted water you dry the stream, and in fact destroy the river ?–That is per- fectly true, and I am not sure whether many of our corporations are not going upon an erroneous process of dealing with sewage. The system of depriving the river of the liquid sewage is radically bad, for this reason, that you draw out pure water from your original stream and do not return the water to it. I will assume that the stream is perfectly pure, Messrs. Crossley have the first draw, and although their neigh- bours sometimes suffer, I know that they take every means in their power to prevent their neighbours suffering from the nuisance, but, for argument sake, I will assume that all their dyewater is passed by a separate sewer so as to leave the brook pure. We come next, and the stream does not suffer from us, but it suffers from dyeworks down below, and there are so many drawers that by the time the river gets down to the lower part no water is left in summer time. Of course in winter the case is different. Then what is the result It is true that you maintain your river bed comparatively pure, but still you have to deal with this sewage matter; I can speak rather feelingly upon that point, because I am the owner of Copley Mills on the left bank of the Calder, near the outfall of the Hebble, into the river Calder. I have let some of the land which I have there to a farmer who has used the Hebble water for irrigation upon his land there, and by means of the irrigation he has obtained very large crops, but I have a number of tenants at Copley village, and I found in summer time several cases of fever, which in my own mind I traced very much to malaria arising from this irrigation. I im- mediately reduced his rent very materially, and said “You must stop for the future this irrigation, it is a “ nuisance, and it affects the sanitary condition of the “ village.” 11,182. (Professor Way.) How often do you fancy that that water is used over and over again?–For condensing purposes it is of course used by every mill on the stream ; of course there is no objection to that, and it is tolerably often used for dyeworks. 11,183. Supposing that there are 20 mills on the stream, if every mill diverted the water which it receives, the water would not get down below the third or fourth mill?—No. Every time that the water is used for dyeworks, it gets worse. My own impres- sion is, that this pollution of water should be dealt with exactly as we deal with the smoke nuisance, namely, that the party making the nuisance should get rid of it in some way or other. Of course, the objection naturally arises in old works. “How shall we find space for so doing : " especially upon the very excellent plan recommended by Mr. Ripley of Bradford, of subsidence; but I believe, that by filtra- tion, and by the precipitation by lime, though objec- tionable in an agricultural point of view, you may restore the water even of towns, comparatively pure to the original stream. Only yesterday I got some of the water of the Hebble and made experiments with it. Passed through a common filter it did not come out perfectly clear, but when filtered with animal charcoal it became perfectly pure. From the rain which we have had, the water was not so dirty as usual, but I have been informed by others who have made these experiments, that you may make dyewater comparatively clear, so as not to be injurious to your neighbours, so as to be fit to be used for washing goods and for other purposes. If you can devise some process by which, in a short space, you can clarify this discoloured dyewater, you get rid of the whole difficulty and you throw the responsibility upon the parties who cause the nuisance. There are three ways in which you may do it ; the first is subsidence, which requires a certain amount of space, and in some dye- works there may be difficulty in getting space; the second mode is filtration ; a moderately sized tank will be sufficient. The third mode would be the chemical one of precipitation to which many object, because you destroy the value of the products for agricultural purposes. But my impression is, that by a combina- tion of those means you may purify the water, or restore it to a comparatively pure state. Then we come to the remaining question of the outfall of sewers. I believe that the mode of intercepting sewers is a false one ; you may be apparently taking what is your own, but you injure all the property in the neighbour- hood, and you injure the future development of that locality, and you are injuring posterity in order that the present generation may get rid of a local nuisance. Therefore, I believe, that the sound principle is, for the corporations to deal with the nuisance at the out- fall of the sewer. As a practical man, I am satisfied RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 349 that it is quite possible to do so. We had it proved before the Sewage Committee on the Thames, that at Leicester the process of deodorization is not a nuisance to anybody, and that the water restored to the brook is comparatively clear. If it be possible, I say by all means put the saddle on the right horse, and let those who make the nuisance get rid of it. Ilet the outfalls of the sewers be where you carry on your deodorizing process, and I believe that by that means you may get rid of the whole difficulty. - 11,184. (Chairman.) With regard to the irrigation which you complained of, was the land irrigated by sewage or by refuse water from manufactures –It was irrigated by the river Hebble at its lowest portion near the canal basin, that is in its worst possible con- dition, for the Hebble becomes almost a sewer at that point. 11,185. You say that your farmer produced heavy crops by irrigation, but that you think that it was a source of nuisance, so as to cause fever ?—There is no question that the crops were most luxuriant; he, I think, cut two or three times during the year. I found that during one season there were several cases of fever at Copley, more than usual. I have, myself, found the smell objectionable when I have been down there, and I was informed by the medical authorities, that the fever arose very much from the bad smells from the liquid sewage thrown over the land ; and when I told the farmer that he must discontinue the process, he said that I must alter the rent, and I reduced the rent. 11, 186. This question, as to the sanitary effect of irrigation, is one of a much wider bearing than this inquiry; it is most important ; and if we have infor- mation of its being noxious which can be substantiated, it is our duty to act upon it; and if we have informa- tion which cannot be substantiated, it is our duty to declare it so. I wish to ask you a few questions with regard to this mode of irrigation. Have you your- self examined sewage irrigation works in other parts of the kingdom *—No. 11,187. You have not seen the Edinburgh meadows : —No. - - 11,188. There a very coarse system of irrigation has been carried on for two centuries, and charges have been made against that irrigation that it pro- duces fevers; but searching investigations have been made, both with regard to some government barracks situated near, and with regard to the population resi- dent around, and the result was that the irrigation was found not to have caused fever. Have you seen the Croydon meadows –No. 11,189. The sewage of Croydon is poured upon certain meadows about a mile and a half from Croydon 2 –May I ask whether that is sewage matter 11,190. The population of Croydon is about 30,000, and there the watercloset system is exclusively adopted. The whole of the effete matter from those 30,000 people passes into the sewers, and passes into the out- let, and the local authorities have an opportunity of putting it over something like 300 acres of land, but they put it over in sections of 20 or 30 acres at a time, about 1,000,000 gallons a day —I can quite under- stand that that water is not injurious, it is very dif- ferent from the Hebble. 11,191. Again at Worthing, with a population of 7,000, all the houses have waterclosets, and the whole of that sewage is pumped, and has been for some- thing like two years upon the land 2–That I can understand. There is this distinction; the Hebble contains not only sewage matter but chemical matters, and it was proved in the Thames inquiry that in that case you create a sort of fermentation, and you raise certain gases which are most offensive to the smell and injurious to health. Sewage matter in a liquid state (as you have it at Croydon and elsewhere) I do not imagine would be very offensive, because most pro- bably it might be taken up rapidly by the earth. 11,192. I have seen all the irrigation processes car- ried on, and I have yet to see the first example of malaria arising from such a cause –I can understand that if you have one patch of land where you have sewage simply, and have it regulated, and if you have another patch of land where water containing chemi- cals is put, the result may be beneficial; but if the two are brought together into one stream I can under- stand what the result may be. 11,193. If the chemicals produce wholesome grass you may depend upon it that the objectionable matter is gone –Before the committee on the Thames it was proved that the sewage matter floats on the top, and that the saline matter from the sea when it came into contact with that sewage matter caused fermen- tation. Some of the witnesses said that the fermen- tation which was so offensive in the Thames in 1858 was very much caused by the contact of floating sewage matter with saline matter from the sea. 11,194. (Professor Way.) Sewage matter proper has not a very enormous amount of sediment in it, but your manufacturing sewage, namely, the discharge of your sewers and brooks and streams in this district contains a mass of solid matter, and it is not im- probable that plants may be smothered with the excess of deposit matter which in that case is thrown upon the land, but if the mode which you suggest of dealing with the impurity of the water were put in force, that is, if each manufacturer were compelled to keep out his refuse matter, the sewage would be ordi- nary sewage:–No doubt of it, but there would still remain certain chemicals in solution, and you cannot by filtration deal with chemicals in solution. 11, 195. A remarkable thing about this district is that the amount of chemicals used has prevented the rivers from being anything like so bad as they might have been 2–Yes. 11,196. (Chairman.) The Professor means to say the chemicals you use in your manufacture, so far from being injurious, act beneficially in preventing the effete matter of the population from being so poisonous as it would otherwise be there?—Yes. 11,197. (Professor Way.) The water supply at Wakefield is taken below the town just after the sewage is discharged; but when that water has sub- sided without any treatment whatever, it is a remark- ably pure water as compared with the ordinary water of the town 2–It was proved before our committee that sea water is specifically heavier than the sewage water. We had a beautiful experiment in which the sea water was, I think, coloured pink, and the sewage matter was black. By putting them into a glass vessel we found that the sea-water was invariably under a superstratum of sewage matter. It struck me that the water restored to the brooks from our dyeworks would also contain an amount of matter in solution which would be specifically heavier than sewage matter, and these two coming into contact might produce a certain amount of fermentation which might be injurious in a sanitary point of view. 11,198. There is no doubt that the mixture of sewage with salt water produces far more mischief than the mixture of it with fresh water, but that is believed to be due to the fact that the gases in the sewage are thrown out because they cannot be ab- sorbed in water already saturated by salt. It is beyond doubt that Brighton and other seaport towns have suffered more than some inland towns. Your waters are not anything like so bad or so charged with chemicals as to go to that extent *-I should like the experiment to be repeated. 11,199. (Mr. Harrison.) How many acres of land have you in disposition near the junction of the Hebble and the Calder to which you could apply sewage – Probably 20 or 30 acres. 11,200. Do you find any difficulty in passing the water from the Hebble on to that land *-No; the Hebble is considerably elevated above this meadow, which lies between the railway and the river. 11,201. Besides your property which you have mentioned, is there any extent of property similarly situated to which sewage might be applied ?–Our works are on the left bank of the river, forming a sort of half-moon, bounded by the railway; on the BIALIFAX. Col. E. Akroyd, M. P. 16 Nov. 1866. X x 3 350 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. Col. E. Akroyd, M.P. 16 Nov. 1866. other side of that railway there still remains a similar meadow which is not my property, and which is let by another party to the same farmer who holds mine, and where the irrigation process goes on in summer. I have observed that the process is very offensive in summer. The farmer gets very large crops from it. I am just reminded that there is a good deal of other land in that locality which is irrigated in the same way. The town clerk will be able to point that out better than myself. 11,202. Do you suppose that there are a few hundred acres to which sewage might be applied ?– There are probably about 80 or 100 acres altogether. 11,203. Lower down the Calder is there any ex- tent 2–Yes, the land lies a little more favourably higher up the stream. Of course irrigation must be very much confined to the level bank or the sloping bank on the side of the Calder. 11,204. Under present circumstances is the land flooded ?–Yes, the whole of the village of Copley is flooded, and the lower cellars are all filled with water at this very time. 11,205. (Professor Way.) Your principle is pre- vention rather than cure, is it not?—It is. 11,206. Just as a certain amount of cleansing, if continually carried on, will keep a building or a room clean P-Yes. I will assume for argument sake that all the chimneys in Halifax were taken into one smoke duct, and that that smoke duct was carried up to Beacon's Hill (an ingenious method which was started by a townsman of mine some years ago) it would be more difficult to deal with that vast volume of smoke than if you required that at each chimney the smoke should be purified. - 11,207. (Chairman.) You would never know who was the rebellious subject if all were directed into one 2–Just so. You must throw the burden in the one case on the whole town, and in the other case you could throw it upon the individual. 11,208. As far as practicable it will be advisable that each individual shall, upon his own premises, pre- vent the pollution of the stream which he uses and which flows past him rather than to attempt any com- bination of numerous manufactories, for the evil may not be so easily dealt with in mass as in detail — Exactly so. 11,209. Do you use much soap at your mills?— Yes, a good deal. 11,210. You use both soap and oil –Yes. 11,211. Do you know how many packs you use ?– We may be able to give you the figures in the aggre- gate, but I am afraid that I cannot give you the amount used at Bowling beck. - 11,212. Do you utilize the soap waste –We do not do as Messrs. Crossley do, namely, extract the grease ourselves, but we dispose of the liquid produce to Mr. Gann and I believe that it is carried down to his works which are lower down the stream than ours, and he separates, I suppose, the fatty matter and restores the purified water to the river. 11,213. Would it be fair to ask what you are paid for it —About 160l. a year; that is not merely for the Bowling Dyke soapsuds but for all. 11,214. (Mr. Harrison.) Does not all the refuse from your manufactories eventually run into the Hebble?—No, we have one set of works at Copley on the Calder, and in the borough of Halifax we have two sets of works. The weaving establishment lies on a much higher level than the establishment at Bowling Dyke, the lower one. 11,215. Can you give us the total weights of wool and cotton and flax which you use at all the works, and the weight of dyewoods and other insoluble matters ?—We do not use any dyewood, we have no dyeworks of our own, we give all that work to be dyed by the dyers. With regard to wool I can only give it to you in round numbers. I can get you the information. I am not prepared to furnish it now. You want to know the total weight of wool and soap and oil used. 11,216. Is the soap refuse utilized from both your works?—From both the works at Halifax, and from Copley. 11,217. (Chairman.) I may state to you that the reason why we are asking you so minutely as to the soap used and the wool dealt with and the other ingredients is, that Professor Way may have all the necessary elements for consideration, and when he gets samples of the refuse as it comes now from your works, and of the effluent water from the works where soap- waste is treated, it will be his duty to see whether chemistry can teach how profitably any important saving can be made, or how the material can be dealt with in any other way than that in which it is now dealt with ?—I shall be most happy to furnish you with every information in my power to assist the Commissioners in any way. The only water fouled by us is that arising from the soapsuds. 11,218. And which you now pass on to another party –Yes, where it is purified by a process which of course Professor Way thoroughly understands. We have no dye wares of any sort. 11,219. If you compare the weight of the oil and soap expended upon your works, and the weight and value of the matter recovered from the soap refuse, you will find that they differ very materially; the inference is that a great proportion of the material passes away after all that you have done at present to intercept it?—I am obliged for the hint, and if you will allow me, before the Commissioners leave Halifax, I will give you a tabular statement furnishing all the information for which you now ask me. 11,220. Would you have any objection to filling up a printed paper if we should think it necessary to send one, asking for answers to these questions 2–1 shall be most happy to furnish the information, and it may be interesting in this point of view. I think that we are almost the largest consumers of long wool as compared with short fibre wool. The Commis- sioners must bear in mind that the trade of this district is a very mixed one ; the trade of the Bradford district is chiefly in mixed goods, compounded of wool and cotton; but in Halifax you have the carpet trade, to which Mr. Crossley has referred, and you have furniture goods such as the curtains round this room and elsewhere, in which cotton is rarely used, there- fore, those returns may be doubly valuable in that respect. 11,221. We have received the most valuable assis- tance from all the parties who have tendered their evidence, and we shall very probably find it necessary to frame a set of questions, and to send them out as circulars. You in the kindest possible manner have promised to fill in any circular which we may send, and I only mention it to say, that we shall be ex- tremely grateful if other gentlemen connected with the trade who have given evidence, or who have been prevented from giving evidence, will do the same. We do not want to be inquisitive, but only to render the commission as practical as it can be 2–I think that it is the duty of every manufacturer to furnish every information in his power, without any idea that it will be used prejudicially. I think that it is im- portant to impose no conditions upon dyers, or others creating this nuisance, which cannot be easily fulfilled. Assuming for argument sake that it is possible to deodorise or purify dye water, it would be very hard to require a dyer who had too limited space to carry out such an operation. But it is my notion that this process can be carried on in a very small space, by tanks one above the other or in various other ways, and it is upon those grounds that I venture to throw out the suggestion. - 11,222. You have mentioned the case of Mr. Ripley at Bradford; he is one of the largest dyers in York- shire; his works are carried on with an abundance of space about them on land which is his own property; he has certain tanks into which the refuse dye water is passed, and then the solids are abstracted from that water, and he is enabled to use or sell that water to several manufacturers below him. But there are scores of dyeing premises in Yorkshire which the RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 351 mass would be obliged at once to shut up if you said to them “Go to Mr. Ripley and do exactly as he does or you shall not carry on your trade?”—I have often observed the three reservoirs of Mr. Ripley where he carries out his plan of subsidence, and of course for that process you require a large area. The suggestion which I ventured to throw out was as to filtration and precipitation which may be carried out in a small space; but where the dyer has room for subsidence I believe that Mr. Ripley's plan may be the best. 11,223. But in that case you would have to present to the manufacturers or dyers an alternative scheme. You would say “There is one mode by which one “gentleman gets rid of his refuse; there is another “ mode by which another gentleman gets rid of his “ refuse; ” and then the Professor might say, “I “ believe that I have ascertained that you can dis- “ charge this matter by another process which will “ occupy so much space, and I recommend that to “ your attention.”—I have said that I would deal with this nuisance as with the smoke nuisance. For getting rid of the smoke there are 20 or 30 patents, but the Legislature very properly does not require the parties who create the smoke to adopt any particular mode of getting rid of it, but all that it does is to insist upon the purification of the smoke, and that it shall be completely harmless, and not opaque. Therefore if you apply the same principle to the water, you must declare that the water shall be comparatively clear. - 11,224. Do you prevent smoke from your works – We have endeavoured to do so; we have tried various ways. . - 11,225. Have you tried a patent –We have tried Jukes's patent, and a variety of patents. There is a very great difficulty in dealing with patents, but I am quite sure that smoke may be dealt with. I noticed your remarks, Mr. Chairman, upon that sub- ject at Bradford, and I think that Mr. Ripley stated ...that if you had an engine heavily burthened you must create more smoke than with one lightly burthened. I believe that he was quite correct in that remark. I believe that one mode of getting rid of smoke is to have sufficient boilers. I quite concur in the opinion of the chairman that a great deal may be done by firing. I saw eight or ten years ago Messrs. Ashton's system at Hyde, they had eight or ten boilers all in a row, and very little smoke came from them, the coals being thrown first on one side and then on the other; there was sufficient space there, and there was an abun- dance of oxygen to mix with the smoke and to get rid of it. 11,226. As a gentleman considerably concerned in manufacture and making some smoke in the district, and knowing the contamination of the atmosphere and that the goods in your premises are injured by the smoke, do you think that we have arrived at a period when it would be iudicious to enforce smoke prevention regulations —I should be most thankful if they were introduced, for I am a great sufferer from it. I have a very pleasant residence, but in the front of that residence, when the wind is in certain direc- tions, I cannot breathe the air of heaven with any pleasure ; sometimes the smoke comes in a dense volume from dyeworks near me. Therefore, I think that in all manufacturing towns it will be found that the public at large would be very glad to afford assistance in dealing with the smoke nuisance and the water nuisance. 11,227. With regard to smoke prevention (smoke burning as some term it) I am at issue with you upon one point. I think that when you are working your boilers there is a loss to you during the time that the fire is deadened, so as to produce smoke, and that you are putting an injurious strain on your boilers in alternately lowering the temperature and then getting up intense heat, for that process expands and tends to weaken the boilers. If, even with small boiler space, you compelled your firemen to fire at shorter intervals, and always to fire in the front of his boiler, you might work that boiler and get as much steam out of it, without making smoke, as you do now, and perhaps a little more steam power than when you make those dense volumes of smoke. Smoke is entirely the result of either ignorance or idleness, or both 2. You will allow me to point out how far I agree with you, and how far I, disagree with you. I perfectly agree with you that it is a false economy to overload the boiler and to have too thick a fire upon it. The amount of heat derived from a given quantity of coal, and the amount of steam raised, are much less with a great quantity of fuel on the fire than with a thinner stratum. But, nevertheless, if you have only one boiler, and must raise a given amount of steam in a certain time, it is perfectly clear that you must keep throwing on coals to raise the heat. It is true that if you throw the coals on all at once you lower the temperature till those coals are burnt up ; but the fireman must be almost perpetually throwing on coals, and every shovelfull of coals thrown on causes smoke, and the amount of smoke caused thereby is much larger in proportion when the boiler is overburthened than when there is abundant space. 11,228. But space is not a ruinously costly thing— that is to say, if you have twenty nominal horse-power working, it does not occasion a very ruinous cost to put up a thirty-horse boiler —The outlay will pay you a better interest than endeavouring to carry on the work by one boiler, I think that that is a false economy. 11,229. If the Legislature said, “You shall not work with a boiler which is forced beyond its capa- city, but shall provide yourself with a boiler capable of doing its work?” there would be no great hard- ship —I should say certainly not. 11,230. You say that it would be economy?—A man sometimes may be short of capital. 11,231. (Mr. Harrison.) You know the cells in the prison at Wakefield 2–I do. 11,232. If they have earthclosets in cells where prisoners are confined during the whole day that is about as severe a trial as a system of that kind can be put to ?–Undoubtedly. 11,233. So that if it is successful there you may take it for granted that it would be successful in your manufactory —I presume it to be so; I have not fully informed myself upon the modus operandi. 11,234. What quantity of water do you use at your manufactories, and where do you receive it from ?— We use about 400,000 gallons, I think, per diem at Bowling Dyke. I am confining my remarks to one mill, which is on the Hebble; that is the quantity which we use for condensing purposes. I believe that we get about one-half from the brook and one-half from the reservoir. 11,235. From what reservoir –We have lately purchased land for the purpose of forming a reservoir : we have laid out about 3,000l. in reservoir space, which perhaps would have been unnecessary if the water had been perfectly pure. The reservoir to which I refer is our own reservoir. 11,236. Deriving your water from those two sources, I suppose that you have no occasion to pump —We have a pump besides that ; I can hardly state the exact quantity of gallons which we get daily from our own unlo. 1 ºr. Do you receive any water from the corpora- tion ?—No ; we have the advantage of being on the Hebble, the works on the higher ground, of course, receive a good deal of water from the corporation. At present, by reason of the brook and from our natural advantages we can dispense with the necessity of taking the town's water, which I may say is most excellent, and I believe superior to what we use ourselves. I am reminded that we use some portion of the town's water for washing wool, for which soft water is a very great advantage; that water is very superior to the water which is derived from the wells, which is hard. The town's water is not to be beaten in England; it is ex- cellent water, and there can be none better. 11,238. That, of course, is a great advantage to the town 2–It is an immense advantage. HALIFAX. - Col. E. Akroyd, . M.P. « 4. 16 Nov. 1866, X x 4 352 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. Col. E. Akroyd, M.P. 16 Nov. 1866. Mr.J. Richard- S012. -- 11,239. When the corporation can bring a greater quantity into the town, do you think that it will be used to a much greater extent —A good deal of the town of Halifax lies above the level of the stream. When we first purchased the mill property in 1817 there were no mills above, but there are now mills on the upper plateau, all of which require water, and I believe that the supply of water will give the town a new start in its manufacturing career, and that more attention will be paid to its manufacturing prosperity. 11,240. It will also tend to the healthiness of the town by giving water to parts in a more elevated position, and where steam power is used manufactories may be scattered over the surface of the ground, and not compressed into a small space as must be the case when the brook is the only source of supply?— That is true; there are mills on the high ground where possibly in former days the idea of mills being erected was never dreamt of. We receive town's water at other mills than Bowling Dyke, and we also have sources of our own. 11,241. So that you have comparatively little pumping 2–Yes; we have pumping in the lower part. We have driven a bore under the hill, and have taken a good deal of water from it. 11,242. Do you find that the supply from that source varies in volume 2–Yes, occasionally, in a very dry season we have pumped the source dry. 11,243. That is not the source upon which you depend ?–We are sometimes obliged to do so, failing the other sources. 11,244. At your works upon the Calder where do you get your supply –Partly from a private well and partly from the river. 11,245. (Chairman.) Did you hear the remarks which were made by the previous witnesses, Mr. Crossley and the town clerk, as to the future manage- ment of the river basins of Yorkshire, under a board of conservancy?—I did, and I am quite in favour of such a board, assuming that you would have some central office in London, like the Board of Health, which would control these various boards, or which at least would be in communication with them, furnishing them with all the information required. 11,246. Do you think that from the conservators, whoever they might be, there should be an appeal to one of the Government offices, either the Board of Trade, or the Home Office, or to the Privy Council º Exactly. - 11,247. The manufacturers might settle amongst themselves, I suppose, which, in their opinion, it should be 2–Certainly. I think that rivers adminis- tration should form a separate department. I think that the Home Office already has more than it can do. 11,248. Then there is the Board of Trade 9–That would hardly answer. 11,249. Then there is the Privy Council –You must have a distinct board; one more nearly allied to the Board of Health than any other. 11,250. The Board of Health is a department of the Home Office –Yes, and this might be a depart- ment of the Home Office. All I mean is that it should not come under the general duties of the Home Office, but should form a distinct department. 11,251. But attached to one or other of these Government departments?—Yes; I think that you might with great advantage put smoke and water under one board. 11,252. Are you acquainted with the Act known as the “Alkalis Manufacturing Act 2" Lord Derby, some two or three years ago, obtained an Act to pre- vent, the pollution of the atmosphere by gases from alkali manufacture ?—I know that there is such an Act, but I do not know much of it. 11,253. In the whole country around alkali works vegetation was being destroyed by gas sent out, and the owners of these works were put under restrictions not to pass away from their chimneys more than 5 per cent. of this refuse?—Yes, that is so, I believe. 11,254. They are under some inspection similar to the factory inspection, and since that period they have carried on the manufactures, complying with the Act of Parliament, and going very far beyond it, scarcely turning out any injurious gas from the chimney — I have had some rather unpleasant experience of those chimneys at the works of Messrs. Crossley. There was formerly a hanging wood of beeches on a property belonging to my late father, and now belonging to my brother, and these trees being rather low, nearly all were destroyed. Messrs. Crossley, quite conscious of the injury they were doing, went to great expense in raising the chimneys, so that we now suffer no injury at all from that cause. The witness withdrew. Mr. John RICHARDSON (Halifax) examined. 11,255. (Chairman.) You are engineer to the borough of Halifax *—Yes. 11,256. How long have you held that appointment —Since April last. 11,257. Where were you engaged before ?—I was city surveyor for Gloucester. 11,258. How many years were you so employed 2– Two years, 11,259. Where were you engaged before ?–For five years I was surveyor for the Barnsley Local Board of Health. 11,260. How long have you been engaged in sani- tary works?—Since 1859. 11,261. Under whom were you articled 2–Mr. Brooke, of Huddersfield. I was in practice for eight years before I held the appointment at Barnsley. 11,262. Upon what points are you prepared to give evidence —I have a paper (handing in the same.) 11,263. What is the water-shed of the Hebble 2– The water-shed of the Hebble amounts to 8,318 acres. There is a tributary of about four miles in length, and I have given you the area of the two. 11,264. What is the length of the valley 2–I think upwards of nine miles. 11,265. What is the present condition of the Hebble 2–The present condition of the Hebble is this: it is very much polluted with the sewage of the district and with the refuse from manufactories; and I should say, from an examination that I made of the river, that its bed must have risen considerably within the last 20 or 30 years, 11,266. Do any of the manufacturers beyond the borough throw ashes into the river ?–I believe so : but beyond the borough there are very few mills. 11,267, Do you know of any mills the owners of which pass ashes into the stream, or any other kind of solid refuse –I cannot point to the mills, but I know that, especially on Saturday afternoon after the mills have ceased to work, they do pass down a considerable quantity of refuse,_ashes, and other matters. 11,268. By flushing out their private dams ?—Yes, 11,269. They take the opportunity between Satur- day and Sunday night to get rid of that matter by throwing it into the stream 2–Yes. 11,270. In your opinion does that tend to raise the bed of the stream 2–It does. 11,271. Is that liable to be injurious to the property on the banks —I think so. 11,272. What is the rainfall in the Hebble valley —I have the result of nine years' observations of the rainfall at two places near Mixenden, a little below our storage reservoir. 11,273. Give me the largest rainfall and the smallest? —The maximum rainfall was 48, inches in 1859, and the minimum was 31:4 in 1855, the average being 38 6. 11,274. Can you give it me in the same way in any other district —At Warley Moor, upon which our works are being constructed, during 12 years the maximum rainfall was 59.8 in 1853, the minimum was 35'9 in 1864, the average being 47 '8. On Oven- den Mloor (the Ovenden is one of the tributaries of the RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 353 Hebble) during 12 years' observations the maximum rainfall was 57.2 in 1856, the minimum 35 in 1865, the average being 46.5. On the Midgley Moor, where there is another portion of our extended works, the maximum rainfall was 55-4 in 1863, the minimum 39.5 in 1864, the average being 48-35. In the town of Halifax observations made during 37 years give a maximum rainfall of 41, inches during 1830, a mini- mum of 23.64 in 1864, the average rainfall for 37 years being 32°06. 11,275. (Mr. Harrison.) The maximum rainfalls appear to have occurred in different years?—Yes, that is so, and I was much struck one year with the differ- ence of rainfall at two places which were about on the same level and within a very short distance of each other. 11,276. (Chairman.) What form of rain-gauges do you use?—The funnel-top form. 11,277. Without a spindle 2–Yes. 11,278. Of ten or 12 inches in diameter?—10 inches in diameter. 11,279. How often are your gaugings registered 2– Monthly. 11,280. How often are they examined 2–We keep a man exclusively to look after these things. I have several other observations as to the flow of the Hebble and the flow of the sewage from the principal outfall. 11,281. Will you give us the flow of the water down the Hebble at any particular point, giving the maximum and minimum ?—I will give you first the flow from the outfall sewer. 11,282. At what point is that ?–The outfall is near to Water Lane nursery, that is the principal one : then there are six minor outlets. (The further examination of this witness was post- poned.) The witness withdrew. Mr. FREDERICK SMITH (Halifax) examined. 11,283. (Chairman.) Are you a resident in Hali- fax 2–Yes. 11,284. What business do you carry on 2–I am a wire manufacturer. 11,285. Where are your works situated —About 100 yards above the level of the beck on the banks of the river. 11,286. How many men do you employ —Some- thing above 100 men and boys. 11,287. What horse-power do you employ 2–50. 11,288. In wire drawing 2–Yes. 11,289. What weight of material do you deal with per annum ?—About 1,500 tons per annum. 11,290. Do you use water —Yes. 11,291. Where do you obtain it —Entirely from the town supply, the reservoir. 11,292. What volume do you use in a week —A little over 2,000,000 gallons per annum. 11,293. What do you pay per 1,000 gallons?–106. 11,294. What weight of coal do you use ?–2,500 tons per annum. - 11,295. What amount of ashes do you produce — About four or five cartloads per week. 11,296. What do you do with them?—We cart them all away, none go into the river. 11,297. Have you any waterclosets or privies on your premises —Three. 11,298. Does any refuse from these flow into the river ?—Yes, all of it. 11,299. Have any complaints been made by your neighbours below —None whatever. 11,300. Do other manufacturers do the same 2– Yes, I believe they do. 11,301. What material do you use in your business besides iron and water 2–We use a large amount of sulphuric acid and muriatic acid, about 90 tons in a eal". 11,302. For what purposes do you use those acids? —For cleaning the wire from the oxide; the iron gets a little rusty in the raw material, and we take the oxide off with sulphuric acid. 11,303. What do you do with the waste acids when they have served their purpose ? —They become largely impregnated with oxide of iron and they are turned down a drain into the river. 11,304. Is that waste liable to be injurious?–Quite the reverse I think ; I believe that oxide of iron a good deal mixed with lime water is rather a good disin- fectant or deodorizer for an impure stream. 11,305. Do you do anything at all to prevent smoke from your premises —Nothing, except by careful firing. 11,306. Do you make much smoke or otherwise ºws do not make much, we have not been complained OI. 11,307. Is it not possible to fire so carefully as not to make much smoke 2–Certainly. 11,308. When you see a dense volume of smoke emitted, should you say that it was from small boiler 17159,-2. room or bad firing —I should think it was both com- bined. 11,309. Might you not have much smoke made where there was plenty of boiler room —Yes; but if so it would be in consequence of injudicious firing. 11,310. Do you not think that there might be a small volume of smoke even with small boiler room by firing carefully —Where you have small boiler room it is a difficult matter to prevent smoke. 11,311. Are you at all annoyed by the pollution of the stream above you ?–Not at all; we get all our water from the town. Perhaps this acid when it gets into the stream would be mixed in the proportion of about one gallon with 125 gallons of water. 11,312. How many grains of iron do you suppose there would be in a gallon —I cannot exactly say, but not very many. 11,313. Do you know what is per-chloride of iron, that is used for disinfecting 2—I do not know much about it. - 11,314. (Mr. Harrison.) You would have a con- siderable amount of sulphate of iron –Yes. 11,315. Do you know that there are works established within the valley of the Aire and Calder to procure sulphate of iron —I do not. 11,316. At Wakefield I believe there are some. Are you aware that sulphate of iron is an article of commerce of some value –Yes. 11,317. What is its worth per ton here?--I do not know. 11,318. Have you ever taken any steps to separate the sulphate of iron from the water that is used?— None whatever, we never thought it would be of any use. 11,319. Are you aware that it is done?—Not in our trade. 11,320. I believe the crystals are worth 31, or 4!. a ton 2–I am not aware of that ; and I am afraid that we should have more trouble in doing it than it would be worth. - 11,321. (Chairman.) Do you not think that you could concentrate the acid by using the same water until you saturated it?—No, we cannot use it after a certain point, it will not act upon the iron. We have large stone cisterns, they are not made of lead, these are filled with hot water and sulphuric acid, and they are worked as long as it is necessary to clean the oxide of iron. After two or three times we let off the liquid, we pull a plug out and let it go. Only a very small portion of sediment would come from a ton weight of W11’e. - 11,322. Your iron I suppose is the best iron 2–Yes, we use Swedish iron in great measure, and we use the best English charcoal. 11,323. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the cost of the acid that you use 2–Between 400l. and 500l. a eal”. 11,324. What do you lose in weight of 1,500 tons of iron –We make a great deal of waste, little bits, that Yy HALIFAX. Mr.J. Richard- &011. 16 Nov. 1866. Mr. F. Smith. 354 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. we sell to the copperas manufacturers; we should make I think about 15 or 20 tons of waste in broken pieces in a year. 11,325. How much wire would you make from that quantity ?–About 1,470 tons of wire, and of the oxide acting upon the surface of the wire, there would not I think be left above one or two pounds per ton. 11,326. (Professor Way.) I suppose the object of cleansing the wire is to coat it —No ; when it comes to us it is sometimes in a rusty condition, and we have to clean off the rust before we can draw it. After we have cleaned it with sulphuric acid we steep it in water, and after that we coat it with lime water. 11,327. I understand that you have a wire of a certain thickness, and you have to convert that into wire of a smaller thickness?—Yes. 11,328. And to clean off the coating of oxide you use sulphuric acid 2–Yes, and muriatic acid. 11,329. By dissolving the exterior coat of iron, the oxide is thrown off 2–Yes. 11,330. The oxide is dissolved in the acid –Yes, in the acid and water. 11,331. Then you do not get a clear liquid –No, certainly not, the oxide settles with the water in the cistern. 11,332. You get a coat of oxide of iron discharged from the iron by the action of the acid on the surface —Yes. - 11,333. It shells off —Yes; it comes off quite clean. - 11,334. When you use hydro-chloric acid it is partly one action and partly another; you dissolve part of the oxide of iron and part of the metal –Yes; we use muriatic acid because its action is quicker ; sul- phuric acid does not take off the oxide so soon, and it requires the iron to steep in the acid for too long a time; for some purposes we use muriatic acid as being preferable to sulphuric acid. 11,335. Suppose the rust of iron is wanted in any large quantity, how is it to be obtained 2–I think we could supply it with our waste wire, which is always exposed to the weather in far greater quantities than it is wanted. It is in small thin pieces of wire, which are as rusty as an old horseshoe. 11,336. If I wanted to make a large quantity of per- chloride of iron, where is the per-oxide of iron to be got to do it?—I do not know. 11,337. Do not you produce a very large quantity of per-oxide of iron in an insoluble state –Yes, but it runs down the stream. 11,338. If a demand occurred for it could you stop it 2–Yes, we could if we placed the outlet from the tank a little above the surface of the bottom; the water would run out and we could take out the oxide of iron. 11,339. What is the weight of iron that comes into your premises and the weight of manufactured goods that goes out 2–1,500 tons. 11,340. The difference would arise from the oxida- tion ?–Yes, and still more from the waste broken pieces, small bits, as long as my arm, or perhaps 30 inches in length, are continually broken off and accu- mulate, we have tons of them that we scarcely know how to get rid of, as rusty as possible. 11,341. Supposing all the oxide of iron which you now throw away, and which is an injury to the streams, was actually wanted to purify the streams, could you take any steps to collect it —Yes, I think we could. 11,342. I need not ask you whether expense is incurred in oxidizing iron —Of course there is. 11,343. Hydro-chloric acid is cheap, and you could make the per-oxide of iron cheap 2–Yes. 11,344. The discharge which passes away is partly oxide of iron in mechanical suspension, and partly pro- toxide of iron or green vitriol –Yes, and spent sulphuric acid. 11,345. What effect has that upon the stream 2– Rather a beneficial one, I think. Much lime water is mixed with it also. We put the wires into cisterns and boil the liquid, and the stuff which comes out of the cistern is considered a good disinfectant. Oxide of iron and sulphuric acid, in their effect upon sewage manure I think are rather beneficial. 11,346. Are you aware that iron has been used to purify sewage at Cheltenham 2–Yes. 11,347. And at Coventry –Yes. 11,348. And that it really does precipitate the sewage in a prompt and successful manner –Yes. 11,349. If the sewage be precipitated in the river, I presume the solid matter remains in the bed to be washed away by the stream —Yes, of course it does. 11,350. If you had to deal with such a question you would rather take these things and mix them in proper proportions, than pass them into the river and trust to chance for the result?—Yes, of course. 11,351. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you find that the iron in the bed of the river consolidates the gravel and other matters thrown into the river to any extent 2– I do not think it does. 11,352. Are your works similar to those which are carried on in Sheffield 2–No. There are four other firms in the same trade, and therefore you can calculate the amount of this material which is used. - 11,353. (Chairman.) What effect would restrictions have upon you, if you were prevented from passing your refuse water into the river?—It would be a very serious disadvantage if we could not let it off when we liked. - 11,354. Would it interfere with your manufacture? —Entirely so. At the bottom of the cisterns we fix pieces of wood for the sediment to settle between, so that the wire does not touch the solid material; and after we let the water off we clear the sedi- ment out. It is very nasty stuff; we have great difficulty in getting rid of it, for when we put it among the ashes, sometimes the railway people object to take it. 11,355. Supposing that no interference was used with regard to fluid refuse, would the circumstance of your being compelled to keep out solid refuse from the stream be of serious moment 2–Not so serious a matter as a prohibition from passing fluid away. 11,356. You have to remove ashes, and if you could not turn your other solid refuse to any profitable use, your having to remove them would not destroy your trade 2–No ; but we would rather get rid of them as we do. 11,357. If all other persons were to be restrained from passing solids into rivers, should you wish to be exempted —Certainly not. I should not object to any scheme that was made universal, so long as we were able to pass the liquids down. 11,358. (Professor Way.) Are you not discharging a large quantity of iron in the shape of oxide of iron and sulphate of iron into the river, for which, if a demand should spring up, you might obtain an income 2 —If that was to occur, we should be glad to adopt some means of intercepting the refuse, but I am afraid there would be no demand for it in the condition we make it. 11,359. If your neighbours were compelled to deal with their sewage and their manufacturing refuse and salts of iron was one of the means to be employed, is it not possible that you might be saving a great deal more than you would be losing —Yes, certainly. 11,360. Do not you think that in many cases the value of a material is not found out by its possessors? —No doubt of it. 11,361. Take the case of tar and gas refuse, until it became compulsory to keep them out of rivers, there was no use for them, but the very necessity that com- pelled persons to keep them out of rivers directed attention to their use, and they are now found too valuable to be thrown away. May it not therefore happen in the case of your products that if you were prevented from throwing oxide of iron into the river, you might derive a great advantage from that circum- stance P-Yes, we should be glad to find that that was the case. HALIFAX. Mr. F. Smith. 16 Nov. 1866. The witness withdrew. wrvers commission:-MINUTEs of EvidºNCE, 355 Mr. WILLIAM IRVING Holdsworth (Halifax), examined. 11,362. (Chairman.) Do you carry on business in Halifax 2–Yes, we are worsted manufacturers. 11,363. Where are the works situated 2–Within a short distance of the town, at Shaw Hill. 11,364. Upon the banks of the Hebble —Yes. 11,365. What number of men do you employ — About 3,000 people. 11,366. Do you employ water power, or engine power, or both —We use engine power exclusively. 11,367. What amount of horse power –230. 11,368. What weight of coal do you use in a year * —About 25,000 tons. 11,369. What amount of ashes do they produce – —A very large quantity of ashes. I cannot exactly say the weight, but a considerable quantity of ashes is produced at our establishment. - 11,370. Do you pass any ashes into the river ?— We do not. 11,371. How are they removed —All our ashes are carted away by our own carts to various places; the great bulk of them go to the railway and on to the roads in the district. 11,372. Do you use water for your manufacturing purposes?—We do. 11,373. To what extent 2–We do not consume very much of the corporation water as we have private pumps of our own ; for condensing purposes we take all our water from the canal. 11,374. You take a small quantity from the corpora- tion 2–Yes. 11,375. Do you know what the volume of that is 2 —According to a return that I have had from the office it appears to be somewhere about 10,000 or 11,000 gallons daily. 11,376. What price do you pay for it *-9d per 1,000 gallons. 11,377. What volume do you lift from your wells 2 —I cannot say: perhaps 500,000 gallons a-day. 11,378. Do you dye upon your premises?–We do not. 11,379. Do you wash goods?—Yes, we wash the wool, using soap. 11,380. What weight of soap do you use in a year 2 —I cannot tell you the weight. 11,381. Do you do anything with your soap 2–We use very large quantities of soap, and we dispose of our soapsuds to a manufacturer who manufactures on our premises. 11,38. How long have you disposed of your soap- suds 2—For many years. 11,383. What weight of wool do you deal with in a year, or is it exclusively wool –We use wool, cotton, and silk, but wool is the principal weight. The con- sumption of wool varies with us according to the state of the trade in the district, the largest consump- tion is generally at the rate of 300 packs per week. 11,384. What arrangement have you in the shape of waterclosets or privies for the work people?—In the mills and warehouses we have between 60 and 70 privies, and the refuse is all carted away into tanks. 11,385. It is not passed into the river ?–Not at all; we have a few waterclosets, six or seven, con- nected with the works, the sewage from which finds its way into the Brook. 11,386. Do you use river water for any purpose?— Not now ; we did in former years. 11,387. For condensing purposes you take water from the canal 2–Yes, we do. I think we occasionally take a little water from the Brook with a small donkey- engine for the purpose of cleaning out the boilers, and we find the Brook water advantageous in that respect as dye water, and things that come down the Brook agree with our boilers much better than the canal water. 11,388. Have you any reservoir room or tank room on your premises?—No, nothing of that sort. 11,389. How long do you rememeer the river Hebble?—I remember it for the last 25 years. 11,390. What condition is it in now as compared with what it was when you first knew it 2–Consider- ably worse, it is more impure. 11,391. Do you think that the bed of the Brook has been raised opposite to your premises since you first knew it 2–I think there is not much difference in that respect, not near us. 11,392. What state is the river in to-day with this flood —There is an enormous quantity of water coming down, in fact, the Brook is almost overflowing. 11,393. Are you liable occasionally to damage from it 2–Yes. 11,394. If the bed of the Brook has been raised by accumulations, that would tend perhaps to damage ou?—Yes. 11,395. If the bed of the river was lowered, you would be less liable to that 2–Yes. 11,396. If there are parties above you who fill up the Brook by passing in solids, they are injuring your property, especially in a time like this 2–Yes; we suffer not much inconvenience from the Brook, because we do not use it ourselves, but no doubt all these solids being thrown in tend to fill up the bed sooner or later. 11,397. In warm, dry weather, do you suffer any inconvenience from the smell or the stench of the Brook?—Yes, we do suffer very much ; during the last two years, which have been dry seasons, we have suf- fered very much indeed. 11,398. You have been annoyed at your works and in your offices?–Yes, we have. 11,399. I suppose you would be glad if the Brook could be improved, and that state of things remedied ? —Yes, certainly. 11,400. Do you think that the nuisance has been caused by the refuse dye water that has been passed in, or by sewage or both 2–I should think from both. Of course I have watched the Brook very narrowly since the corporation turned the sewage into it, and there is no doubt that a greater nuisance exists now than before. Unfortunately for us the drain comes in just above us, and in a dry season we experience a great nuisance from it. 11,401. Does the outfall sewer empty itself above your works –It does. 11,402. At what expense do you pump your water 2 —We have a separate pump for it, and the power is derived from the engine. 11,403. From the boiler which is doing the other work 2–Yes. 11,404. What depth are your wells 2–The prin- cipal one is about 25 yards. 11,405. Does the head of water vary at different seasons of the year 2–It does. - 11,406. When is it at the lowest ?–I cannot exactly say. We have never suffered from a dry well, even during the two years drought, but the supply was not in the same quantity then as we have had it at other times. 11,407. Are your wells bore holes 2–They were formerly made for other engine power that we had in various parts of the works, but they were afterwards altered and converted into wells from which to pump water, to wash wool with and various other things. 11,408. Of what diameter are they?—Not very large, about six or seven feet. 11,409. Have you driven headings as Messrs. Crossley have—they have wells, and Mr. Crossley stated that they had driven headings or galleries into the stratification to intercept and bring in more water 2–No ; I believe that in one or two cases we have made a little headway of that sort. 11,410. Have you bore holes?—Yes. 11,411. To what depth do they extend from the surface 2–I do not know. 11,412. Nor the diameter 2–No. 11,413. So far as your experience goes, they have served your purpose in giving you water at all times? —I cannot say that they have served our purpose, but they have served a certain purpose which relates only to a very limited portion of our business; the great bulk of our supply comes from the canal and from the corporation. HALIFAX. Mr. W. I. Holdsworth. 16 Nov. 1866. Yy 2 356 RIVERS COMMISSION :–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, HALIFAX. Af, W. I. IIoldsworth. 16 Nov., 1866. 11,414. What do you pay to the canal company for water 2—We have three distinct sets of engines; two of them are within the prescribed distance allowed by Act of Parliament ; the other is without that distance, and for that we pay 201. annually. 11,415. Do you use the canal for traffic purposes? —Yes; we get a great quantity of coal by the canal. 11,416. You are a customer to the canal, and they accommodate you?—Yes. 11,417. You pay for that accommodation ?— Certainly. 11,418. What is the quality of the water that you pump from your wells and bore holes?—It is hard water, much harder than the corporation water. 11,419. What makes it hard —That I cannot say. 11,420. Has it any iron in it, so as to be objection- able to you ?–Not at all. 11,421. It is not a chalybeate —Not at all. 11,422. It does not affect your goods?—Not in the slightest degree. 11,423. Do you know the condition of the streams throughout Yorkshire generally —I know that they are not so good as they ought to be. I know that most of them are very bad. 11,424. Do you think it is advisable to put any restraints upon manufacturers, who, at present, pass solid refuse into the rivers; such as ashes, and dye- woods?—I think it would be desirable to do so, as I do not see any very great difficulty in dealing with the solids; the treatment of liquids are a very difficult question. 11,425. Would you consider it a great hardship if you were compelled to keep out the refuse from your two or three waterclosets, if it could be shown that you could do so with some comfort and convenience to yourself?—We should be very glad to be shown any scheme that would improve the condition of the stream. 11,426. Although it would entail a few shillings of expense –We should not object to that, if it was beneficial to the public. 11,427. Have you ever seen one of the newly- invented earth closets which have been introduced into Wakefield Gaol –No. 11,428. If an earth closet can be placed in a cell 10 feet square, and the inmate can use it the year round without injury or nuisance, should you consider that a means of getting rid of the nuisance that may arise from waterclosets —Not having seen it, I could not venture to offer an opinion about it, but any im- provement of that sort we should only be too happy to adopt. 11,429. What amount of income do you derive from your refuse soapsuds?—I know it is under 200l. a year. 11,430. (Mr. Harrison.) Is it dependent upon the quantity of soap you use 2–No ; we have let it to a man who manufactures on the premises; he had a long lease some years ago, and he got it very reason: ably ; he pays so much per annum, and we engaged to send him all the suds. 11,431. (Chairman.) You do not trouble yourself as to what he makes —No. 11,432. Nor whether you get an equivalent for what it is worth 2–We think that this man has it too cheap now ; he has had a long lease of it. 11,433. Do you manufacture your own gas —Yes. 11,434. Do you pass out any refuse –No ; we pass nothing into the brook. 11,435. If any person who manufactures gas, pol- lutes the river with the refuse, I suppose you would say he ought, very fairly, to be prevented from doing so 2–Certainly. I see no necessity for throwing any- thing from gas into the brook. 11,436. You can sell the ammoniacal liquor and the tar?—Yes; and we do so. 11,437. The coke you can consume under your own boilers ?—Certainly. 11,438. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you ever made any calculation as to what it cost you to pump the same quantity of water that you might obtain from the corporation ?–No. 11,439. If the water in the brook was pure, would you require to be supplied with that water which you now pay for to the corporation ?—If it came down the brook pure and good enough for our purposes, we could save 201. a year by taking it from the brook; it is within the distance of our engine, but we are not large consumers of the corporation water ; we just simply take it for wool-washing because it is much softer than our own. 11,440. In an economical point of view, water is so valuable a commodity that it is important to you and other manufacturers that the pollution of rivers should cease ?—Certainly, if it can be done without injury to the trade of a district. 11,441. If you were put to some expense to prevent it you might receive a quid pro quo by the purification of the river because you would be able to use the water –Certainly. 11,442. (Chairman.) Do you use any apparatus for preventing smoke from your furnaces?—No ; we adopted smoke-burners many years ago, but we had to discontinue them because we thought them very inefficient, they did not answer the purpose. Since then we have adopted a simpler method, which we think will be very good. We have erected one large chimney in the place of several others, and we have turned our smoke into this chimney. We place down about four or five additional boilers, we have always two or three over and above the regular work, and we make comparatively little smoke in consequence of that alteration. 11,443. What kind of fuel do you use, coal or slack 2 —We use two sorts of coal, one is small engine coal and the other is a larger kind, of a better class, and they are mixed together. 11,444. What is the cost per ton —We pay now about 7s.6d. a ton. 11,445. The coal is of a good quality which you expect easily to fire with without making much smoke 2 —Yes. 11,446. Have you tried the plan of throwing the onus of not making smoke upon the fireman P-Yes. 11,447. If you paid him a portion of his wages on the understanding that he did not make smoke, and if he did that you would deduct that portion, do you think that that might have the effect —We have not put it in that way. 11,448. If you did so it would be no cost to you on account of the saving —Unfortunately in these districts firemen are not so plentiful, and we cannot change them so easily. - 11,449. A cheap man is the dearest person you can have about the premises —No doubt of it. 11,450. Have you heard the opinions expressed by the previous witnesses as to the future conservancy of the river ?–No. 11,451. Do you think that if the management were spread over the entire basin some beneficial measure might be carried out which should be useful to the whole of the manufacturers ?—I have no doubt that the subject can be dealt with in such a way as to cause some improvement, more or less. What that may be time must show, but no doubt a very great improve- ment can be made. 11,452. You do not now put any ashes into the river ?—No, but it was the common practice many years ago to do so. - 11,453. Ashes went in with other manufacturing refuse when the mills were first established 2–Yes. 11,454. You now cart them away as a matter of self-preservation ?–Yes. 11,455. If there are other parts of the country where manufacturers throw ashes into the streams as you did formerly, do you think it would be ruinous to trade if they were prevented from doing it *—Certainly not, and I think that that is one of the things which ought to be dealt with at once. 11,456. If other parties abuse the rivers by throwing in solids, such as foundation materials or road scrap- ings, do you think that they ought to be prevented from doing it —Certainly ; there is no doubt that RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 357 there is a large amount of matter which goes into the brook that ought never to go there, and there ought to be some restriction placed upon that. 11,457. If you cannot utilize or clarify the dye water, you may, I presume, prevent the dye wares which are used from going in by intercepting them – I should say so, either by burning or taking them away. 11,458. (Mr. Harrison.) Did you hear what Colo- nel Akroyd stated, which was that he pays so much, not merely to keep back the dyewoods, but that by precipitation with lime and filtration, the water from dyeworks may be sent out in almost a pure condi- tion ?—That is going beyond what I could say, because I really have not studied that part of the question ; as for the solids I do not hesitate to say that they could be kept out without the slightest difficulty. - 11,459. (Professor Way.) If the rasped wood was of value, and it was desirable to stop it from going away, there would be no difficulty I suppose in doing it 2–Certainly not ; and I apprehend that manu- facturers would soon find that out. 11,460. In your view, how came the trade of this district to grow up ; was it partly because coal was to be found in the district, and partly the existence of water ?–Certainly, I should say so ; both combined offered a great inducement to establish manufactories, water has been cheap, and also coal. 11,461. When the first manufacturers came to this district, they found the river sufficiently good for their purposes —No doubt of it. Within my own time, we used to take all the water for condensation from the Hebble until it was so bad that we were obliged to go to the canal. 11,462. After a time, as the use of the water and the discharge of the water were equally necessary for them, the streams became more or less impure ?—Yes. 11,463. I suppose therefore that the manufacturers have been using up their means of manufacturing in the act of polluting these streams ?—Certainly. 11,464. They have been driven to other sources for water obtained either from wells or from distant sources 2–Certainly ; every manufacturer of im- portance in this district will have one or two wells of his own. 11,465. But I mean in the first instance —Of course; but in those days manufactories were on a very limited scale and required very little water com- pared with what they do now. 11,466. If river pollution goes on to a greater extent, I suppose manufacturers will be entirely dependent for water upon foreign sources of supply — Yes; in our own town a large number of manufac- tories are springing up in the upper portion of the town, on the hill side, where there is no chance of getting water from the river or brooks, and all the water that is wanted is taken from the corporation pipes. 11,467. And the price of that water is put on to the price of the goods —Certainly it adds to the ex- pense of the articles. 11,468. All the water is not used for purposes for which a pure water is wanted —Certainly not. 11,469. If a manufacturer could get part of the water from the river in a moderately pure state, he might carry on his manufacture on the banks 2–Yes, and it would be much better ; he could carry on his establishment at a much cheaper rate. 11,470. And if every other manufacturer was placed in the same position, and was obliged to purify the water before it was discharged, he would do the same? —Yes. 11,471. (Chairman.) If you desired to double your present manufactures upon the present site, could you do so with your present means of obtaining water – Yes, I think we could, so long as we had the canal adjoining, as we want the water there. 11,472. (Professor Way.) Where does the canal get its water from ?–From the brook. 11,473. (Chairman.) Is not the canal water more or less impure ?—It is very bad indeed, and I think that is the greatest nuisance we have to deal with. 11,474. If the brook were purified one great part of the difficulty would be removed 2–Yes. 11,475. You could extend your works then with greater advantage to yourself?—Yes. 11,476. You have the greatest interest in the purifi- cation of the river above you ?—We have. 11,477. If the river was purified above you, you would feel yourself under a moral obligation to send the water back again as pure as you could for the benefit of millowners below you ?—Certainly. 11,478. Even if it cost you something out of pocket to do it?—Yes. - 11,479. It would be a balance of gain and loss as º trade and the means of carrying trade on 2– C.S. 11,480. (Professor Way.) Increase of trade, which means increase of population, will be checked at a certain time by the impossibility of getting water to carry on that trade 2–Yes, that must be the effect sooner or later. - 11,481. If there is an end ultimately of the supply of water, there will come a time when population and trade will not increase, because there will be no water . either for domestic or trade purposes 2–Yes; it is one of the great essentials for a corporate body to look to, to have plenty of water in a manufacturing town. 11,482. (Mr. Harrison.) Is the water in the canal getting more impure ?—Certainly ; during the last summer we found it was a very great nuisance in our own district. 11,483. If it continues to be polluted, shall you be able to resort to it as a source of supply for your works —I doubt it, unless some steps are taken to purify it. 11,484. What should you do in such a case ?—We should have to go back to the brook, or take the corporation water entirely. 11,485. If they could not supply it to you, what resource should you then have 2–If they could not supply us, then we should be in a fix; we should be stopped altogether. 11,486. (Chairman.) You would be stopped within the limit of your pumping power P-Yes. 11,487. (Mr. Harrison.) If the canal water was as bad at Halifax as it is at Bradford, and people would not tolerate it any longer, and an injunction was obtained to stop up the canal, your supply would be cut off?—Certainly. 11,488. The question of water supply to you would be one almost of life and death –Yes, it is a very momentous question indeed, and if any unfortunate thing of the kind you have just mentioned occurred, we should be thrown entirely upon the corporation reservoir for a great portion of our water; we should get some portion of it from our own wells. 11,489. Is not what I have suggested the clear tendency of things?—Certainly there is that tendency. It is a very unfortunate thing for the canal company that they take the water from the brook below the point where the town sewage is discharged, and they ought to make I think some alteration in that. 11,490. If you were obliged to take all your water from the corporation at 9d. per 1,000 gallons, do you think you could carry on your trade –It would be a very serious expense I apprehend, according to the corporation scale of charges, the larger the consump- tion the less is the price. - 11,491. (Professor Way.) If you spent 1,000l. in bringing water into your mills, would it be a very serious thing to spend 100l. in purifying it before you sent it out 2–I do not know. 11,492. Water is the means by which you carry on your trade 2–Yes. - 11,493. It is an injury to everybody else when it is discharged in an impure state —Yes. - The witness withdrew. Adjourned till half-past 10 o'clock to-morrow. HALIFAX. Mr. W. I. Holdsworth. 16 Nov. 1866. Y y 3 358 Riyººs Commission :-MINUTEs of Evid ENCE, HALIFAX. Mr.J. Richard- S011. 17 Nov. 1866. - - Halifax, Saturday, 17th November 1866. PRESENT : ROBERT RAWLINSON, ESQ., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THoRNHILL HARRIsoN, Esq. - Mr. John RICHARDSON further examined. 11,494. (Chairman.) Have you made any gaugings of the brooks connected with the town drainage *- No but gaugings were taken in February 1865 by the then waterworks manager, for the purpose of ascertaining the volume of water passing down, the stream. It does not appear that the result of those gaugings was worked out at the time, I have there- fore taken them, and worked out the result. 11,495. Will you state briefly what results you haye arrived at 2–During the month of February the average flow of the Hebble brook during the working hours of each working day was 705 cubic feet per minute, or 507,000 cubic feet per day. 11,496. In what year was that?–In 1865. This flowincludes 1,000,000 gallons, passed out of the Ogden reservoir. The Ogden brook passed down 347 cubic feet per minute during 12 hours of each working day in the month of February 1865. These gaugings were taken immediately before the joining of the two streams at Lea Bridge. Then, during the same month, gaugings were taken below the principal sewer outfall upon the Hebble, after receiving the sewage of the town, and after the two streams I have named had joined, and the flow per minute during 12 working hours of each day was 1,502 cubic feet. 11,497. At what date was that –February 1865. 11,498. (Mr. Harrison.) What was the volume passing during the other 12 hours?--That would vary considerably; in the first place, there would not be i,000,000 gallons of water from the Ogden reser- voir that would cease entirely; and the millowners would store as much water as possible in their dams for the next morning. 11,499. Any gaugings that could have been insti- tuted would not have been reliable?–No-Imay state that during these observations, the rainfall was about the average rainfall of the year. 11,500. What was that 2–About three inches. 11,501. During how many days?–During the entire month of February. 11,502. Have you a table of gaugings from your sewer outfall?—Yes; I might just call attention to the different results obtained by comparing the flow at intervals of six hours in the same day. For instance, I will take the 10th November 1866 (there was no rain whatever on that day). During the first six hour, from 12 at night to 6 in the morning, the flow of the sewage amounted to 154 cubic feet per minute ; from 6 o'clock in the morning to 12 o'clock at noon it amounted to 274 cubic feet; from noon till 6 o'clock at night it was 221 cubic feet; and from 6 o'clock at night till 12 at night 261 cubic feet. I ac- count for this larger quantity at night by rain having fallen at night; the observations as to the rainfall having been taken from 9 till 9, while these gaug- ings had been taken from 6 till 6. - 11,503. I suppose you are aware that the flow o sewage in any system of sewers is in proportion to the water artificially supplied for domestic uses, and for trade purposes?–It is so. 11,504. It rises and falls according to the habits of the people, beginning in the morning, increasing a little at breakfast time, and then falling off at about 10 o'clock, then rising up a little between 12 and 1 o'clock, the largest flow being from 6 to 8 o'clock in the evening generally 2–That is my experience here. 11,505. Sewage varies in flow according to the use of the water by the people –Yes; in this case it would be also influenced by the use of water by mills, so far as they pass water into the sewer. The result is that the maximum daily flow of the water during the C - - - observations gives 659,822 cubic feet per day, and a minimum flow of 328,000, the average daily flow being 429,000 cubic feet per day. - º That gives about 2,000,000 gallons per day? - eS. 11,507. What quantity of water do you supply to the town –About 1,300,000 or 1,400,000 gallons. 11,508. What is the size of the outfall sewer P_It is 5 feet by 3 feet 6, inches. 11,509. Of what form is the invert 2–Elliptical. 11,510. Is it egg-shaped 2–No. 11,511. How much of the invert of the sewer does that volume of sewage occupy; is there a depth of three or four inches —More than that, I think six or seven inches. f 11,512. Out of how many inches 2–Out of five eet. 11,513. Was the sewer full last night, during the storm ––Yes, it was. I had the gauge fixed in, and it has backed the water up. 11,514. Did the water in the river back it up as well ?—I think not. - 11,515. Was there any serious flooding last night? —Not particularly so. c 11,516. No injurious flooding –No. 11,517. The sewer has not burst 2–It has a little it has warped; but that was from the fact of the gauge being there. 11,518. There has not been any serious damage done 2–No. 11,519 (Chairman.) Could you gauge last night? —No, the gauge dammed up the water until it lifted the top of the sewer. * What is the fall of the sewer 2–One in 137. - 11,521. The difference between 2,000,000 and 1,300,000 would be accounted for by pumping from the different manufactories P-Yes. 11,522. What is your next table –The next table gives the sizes and lengths of the sewers. 11,523. Will you give me the lengths of the sewers; which is the smallest in sectional area 2–The smilies. in sectional area is nine inches in diameter. 11,524. What is the entire length of the main sewer : give the length, the diameter, and the rate of inclina. tion if you can -The largest sewer is 5 feet by 3 feet 6, inches, and extends within the borough 1,143 yards; the gradient varies very much, it goes from I in 76 to 1 in 137. 11,525. Have you man-holes in that length of sewer?—Yes, we have some ; I do not know how many. - 11,526. Have you any ventilating shafts in it 2– None. The next is a second-class sewer, and that is in length 2,090 yards; the diameter is 3 feet 6 inches by 2 feet 6 inches. - 11,527. Are there any man-holes in that length 2– —Yes; I do not know the number of the man- holes. 11,528. Have they moveable covers 2–Yes, they have. Y 11,529. Are they fixed at the street surface?— es. 11,530. Are there any ventilating arrangements there 2–None. The next length is a third-class sewer amounting to 2,413 yards; the size of the sewer i. 2 feet 9 inches by 2 feet 3 inches, and the gradient is from 1 in 11 or 12 to 1 in 50 or 60. I do not know the number of man-holes there. 11,531. Is there any ventilation in that length 2– None ; we have no ventilators througout the town, - Rivers commission :-MINUTEs of EvidºNCE, 359 with the exception of connexions with the house fall pipes. The fourth class of sewer amounts to 3,580 yards, and the size is 2 feet 6 inches by 2 feet 9 inches. 11,532. Are the sewers made of brickwork?–No. They are generally made of stone; they are egg- shaped, nearly all of them. 11,533. Are they made in pierpoint stone –Yes; 6-inch pierpoints. The next size is a square sewer. I think that is not part of Mr. Ranger's scheme ; I think it has been introduced since. The length is 5,266 yards, and it is 2 feet square. - 11,534. In what condition is the invert of that sewer, does it accumulate or does it keep clean 2–It keeps clean ; the gradients are so steep that all our sewers are very clean. The next is a square sewer. 250 yards in length, 3 feet by 2. Then we have 950 yards of a 4-inch brick sewer, 2 feet in diameter; 166 yards of a 4-inch brick sewer, 1 foot 6 inches in diameter, and 3,550 yards of pipe sewers, 15 inches in diameter. - 11,535. Are they socket joints or half sockets – Full sockets. The next size is 1 foot in diameter, and the length 6:500 yards. 11,536. Are these earthenware pipes?—Yes. I believe they are all full sockets. The next size is 9 inches in diameter, pipe sewer again, and the length is 7,980 yards. The total length of the sewer- age within the town amounts to about 19 miles. 11,537. Have you experienced any difficulty in the management of your pipe sewers?—Not in this town. 11,538. Have they been flooded at all ?–No. 11,539. Then as far as your experience goes, they answer the purpose for which they were intended, viz., to be street sewers ?–Yes, they do. 11,540. They carry off the water passed into them, and they give you no trouble?—None whatever. 11,541. Have you had difficulties with pipe sewers in any other towns?—Yes. I had very great difficulty in the city of Gloucester. 11,542. How was that ?–On account of the bad gradients. 11,543. 11,544. think so. 11,545. were not. 11,546. Have you had choking and difficulties of that kind 2–Yes. 11,547. If you had had no other experience than at Gloucester, you might have expressed an opinion against the use of earthenware pipes?—No ; I think not, because at Barnsley earthenware pipes were used in a great measure, and I carried out part of that scheme myself. I found them answer there admirably. 1,548. Your experience is, that where earthen- ware pipes are sufficient for their work, and they are properly laid, they answer the purpose of public sewers? —I quite think so. 11,549. (Mr. Harrison.) How did you remedy the defect in the sewers at Gloucester —By taking them up and relaying them. - 11,550. Did you take up any considerable length 2 —About half a mile. 11,551. In what part of the town was that 2–It was on the north-west side of the city. 11,552. (Chairman.) What have you further to state?—The next table is the length of the roads. 11,553. Have you tabulated the length of the roads within the borough under your charge –I have. 11,554. Will you state as briefly as you can what that length is, and the character of the roads?—I have classified them as paved roads and macadamized roads, but I shall have to hand in that information afterwards. 11,555. You have certain papers which you wish to hand in 2-Yes (handing in the same). 11,556. In the entire length of the sewers under Were they flat gradients?–Yes. Was it also on account of bad laying 2–1 They were not regularly laid –No ; they your charge there is no systematic mode of ventilation? —None. 11,557. Have you discussed the question with your local board as to the necessity of ventilation?—I have. - 11,558. Have they instructed you to make any plans for ventilation?—They have. -- 11,559. Have you carried out ventilating arrange- ments in any of the sewers you have previously con- structed?—Yes, in the execution of the sewers at Gloucester. 11,560. Did you use charcoal for disinfecting the gases of the sewers before passing them into the atmosphere?—I did. 11,561. You will then have no difficulty in devising a proper method of ventilating the new sewers now under your charge, if the corporation instruct you to do so?—The corporation have instructed me to put down a system of ventilation. 11,562. Since the meeting yesterday, have you obtained some information as to the recent rainfalls and the state of your reservoirs?—Yes. 11,563. Did you go to your reservoirs last night? —Yes. - 11,564. Which did you visit?—The Ogden reser- * VO11”. 11,565. Is that a large one –Yes, it is a large reservoir used for storage and compensation water. 11,566. Of what area is that reservoir 2–About 30 a Cres. 11,567. Do you know what the drainage area is 2– 1,140 acres. 11,568. What is the mode adopted in your bye- wash construction ?– The byewash is a tower or cylinder, and the water falls vertically 66 feet. 11,569. What depth was it going over the lip of the byewash yesterday –1 foot 10 inches. 11,570. What kind of effect did it cause in the wall?—The bottom of the bank was in a state of vibration. - 11,571. Vibrating like an organ pipe with the rush of the water P-Yes. 11,572. Is there any difficulty in constructing a byewash on the solid, so as to pass the water down on to the solid ground in the river below 2–None. 11,573. What is your opinion of that mode of con- struction ?—I think it is much preferable. - 11,574. If the masonry had given way what would have become of the bank –The bank must have gone. - 11,575. What amount of rainfall did you gauge yesterday?—About 4 inches up in that district. 11,576. Within what number of hours?—Within 48 hours. 11,577. What volume did it give you, flowing from the ground through that reservoir and out of it 2– Upwards of 100,000,000 gallons during that time. 11,578. That was escaping from the reservoir 2– Yes. 11,579. Was the water below the top of the bank or below the lip of the byewash when the rain com. menced?—It was up to the top of the byewash. 11,580. Do you know what depth of water is going over the byewash this morning –No. 11,581. Have you ever had so large a fall and so deep a flow over the byewash before?—Not in my experience. - 11,582. You never saw the full effect of that volume on your bank before ?–No, I did not, 11,583. What height is the bank 2–66 feet to the water line. 11,584. If you calculate the velocity of a body of water falling through 66 feet, you will find that it reaches the bottom with almost the force of a cannon shot as compared, but if it falls step by step, it is landed at the bottom of the river, as easily as it was started at first 2–No doubt it would be so. 11,585. What is the height of the bank above the lip of the overthrow 2–It is about 3 feet 6. 11,586. If that is so, and the Water was nearly two feet over your byewash, you had not above 1 foot HALIFAX. Mr. J. Richard- son. in Nov. 1866. Yy 4 360 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. J. Richard- Mr. E. Ingham. 6 inches of bank above your top-water line —No, we had not. 11,587. Supposing this had occurred yesterday with a heavy gale of wind, you might have had all that water brought in one sheet over your bank —But we have a very stout wall intervening. 11,588. What height is that wall ?–Fully 4 feet 6 inches. 11,589. Then you must add the 4 feet to the 1 foot 6 inches of bank, and you would have 5 feet 6 inches intervening 2—Yes; or 6 feet. 11,590. You are preparing a list of the mills, giving the names of the millowners, the form of power they use, the volume of water which is consumed, and other details, which, when completed, you will send in to the Commission 2–Yes, I will. 11,591. (Mr. Harrison.) What is the diameter of that outer circle (pointing to the plan) –8 miles. 11,592. That is the limit within which the corpora- tion is authorized by Parliament to supply water to the different townships and villages?–Yes. 11,593, Is there any obligation on the corporation to find water for the villages within that circle 2–1 believe so. 11,594. It is not a permissive power merely 2–No. it is part of our area of supply. By the provisions of the original Act, and the Waterworks Clauses Act, read together, we are bound to supply the water. 11,595. The system of waterclosets has not been carried out to any extent in Halifax, has it 2–It has not. 11,596. "Ashpits still exist I believe to a great extent 2–Yes, we have some 1,500 or 1,600 ashpits, and probably 3,000 privies. 11,597. Are they situated in the parts of the town where the poorer population reside –Yes. 11,598. What is the health of the people in this district as compared with others ?—The ashpits and privies are generally very conveniently situated ; that is to say, they are at some distance from the dwellings, and I do not think that the health of the poorer inhabitants suffers very much from the privies or ash- pits. The witness withdrew. Mr. Edward INGHAM (Halifax) examined. 11,599. (Mr. Harrison). Where are your works situated 2–In Pelham Lane, within the town of Halifax. 11,600. dyer. 11,601. 200. 11,602. power. 11,603. What is that power?—Steam power. 11,604. What weight of coals do you use in a year * —5,000 tons per year. 11,605. What weight of ashes do you suppose they produce 2–That I can scarcely speak to ; we have a man upon the ground who takes a great part of the ashes away himself, the others we lead into the streets ; we have no regular system of doing this. 11,606. You get rid of the ashes and none find their way into the stream —No, we cannot do that. 11,607. Where do you get your water from ?— From pumps and a spring that comes to the surface. 11,608. What depth are the pumps ?—They are two miles above our place ; perhaps they are 20 yards deep ; there are wells there, and one spring in the same neighbourhood, which comes out at the surface, it What trade do you carry on F-I am a What number of hands do you employ — What power do you use –About 15-horse comes by gravitation. - 11,609. What volume of water do you use per day ? —About 200,000 gallons. 11,610. What becomes of it after you have used it 2 —It comes down the town sewers. 11,611. What do you use it for 2–For dyeing. 11,612. And some for washing?—For dyeing and washing, and for the engines. 11,613. What volume do you use for those three purposes; how much for boiler purposes?—We have five boilers, and they evaporate a great deal; we boil our vats with those boilers; we have about 15-horse power. 11,614. A 15-horse engine attached to the boiler would give 100-horse power –Yes. 11,615. What volume of water do you use for washing wool —I could not speak to that, we run it into a reservoir behind the works and use it ; it is all used for washing and dyeing purposes. 11,616. What weight of wool do you pass through your works in a year 2–I cannot speak to that ; but it is a great quantity, 30,000 lbs. a week perhaps. 11,617. Do you dye wool?—Yes, and wool and cotton together, and a good deal of cotton warps, and some piece goods. 11,618. Those come to you to be dyed —Yes. 11,619. Is the wool that you clean sent to you to be cleaned —Yes; to be cleaned and dyed. 11,620. What is done with the refuse from your washing process –It all goes down the drain now. 11,621. What do you use for cleansing the wool?— Soap in a great majority of cases; we use for bleaching purposes in cotton a good deal of soda ash. 11,622. What weight of soap do you use?—I have put down here 300 packs of soap per annum. 11,623. That would be worth reclaiming I suppose ? —Some two years since I thought of that, and a practical man told me that he did not think it would be worth while from the way that we used the soap, that we had too great a quantity of water, compared with the quantity of soap. 11,624. Do you clean the wool with a machine?— Partially so ; but it is nearly all hand labour, we just squeeze the soda out, but a great part of it is got out by an extractor, by centrifugal force. 11,625. Do you use a larger volume of water in cleaning your wool than is generally used ?–I think three times the quantity, and more than that. 11,626. How is it that your wool requires so much —Our wool does not require a strong soap lather, any- thing that would take a small quantity of oil out of it is all that we require. 11,627. What wool do you use ?–The wool that we use has been already washed before it comes to us; it is in a half prepared state when we get it; it has had all the manufacturer’s washing before we get it, and all our work is to take out a little oil that has been put on to make it work better, we get that out, and that is the only thing; a very thin soap lather is sufficient. 11,628. Do you think that the quantity of water used makes it hardly possible or worth while to take the soap out 2–A practical man said that he did not think it would be any benefit. 11,629. Would not Messrs. Le Page and Company take it from you ?—I do not think they would on that account, but I never asked the question. 11,630. Do you dye all the wool that you wash 2– Yes, we dye or stove it—that is, make it white; it is scoured and submitted to fumes of brimstone. 11,631. Besides wool, have you some yarn and pieces to die?–Yes, we have a good deal of cotton warps and piece goods. - 11,632. What weight do you dye per annum ?–I should fancy we dye from 1% tons to 2 tons of cotton warps daily, and piece goods, but I should rather include them in the 5 tons per day of wool. 11,633. Besides wool, do you dye cotton to any extent 2–Yes. 11,634. Up to what weight —From 1 to 2 tons a day. 11,635. Can you state what weight of insoluble woods and other dyes you use?—I can scarcely say, out we do not dye so much cotton as some of the RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 361 dyers who have given evidence before. I should say that there would be perhaps from 2 tons to 3 tons a week. 11,636. Of solid materials —Yes, chipped and rasped wood. 11,637. (Chairman.) And other forms of solid refuse 2–Yes. 11,638. (Mr. Harrison.) What are the soluble materials, acids 2—I use 50 tons of oil of vitriol per annum, 12 tons of soda ash, 20 or 30 tons of alum, and perhaps 20 tons of other sorts—sulphates, sul- phate of copper, sulphate of iron, and so forth. We also use from 10 to 15 tons of bi-chromate per year. 11,639. What is the soda used for ?—For bleaching cotton. 11,640. Does that produce a disagreeable refuse ?— No, I should think that the soda and the acids, when they came together, would neutralize each other, and would pass on quietly together. 11,641. What becomes of the insoluble materials, the dyewoods —We burn them all ; we have no means of getting quit of them otherwise than by letting them go, and we find it advantageous to burn them. 11,642. Is the wood that you use for dyeing chipped wood —Generally so. 11,643. Is there any difficulty in burning the rasped wood —Not particularly ; we should do so if we had much of it. 11,644. In dyeing some goods, it is necessary to use rasped wood, is it not ?—Yes. 11,645. Do you think that dyers who use rasped woods would find much difficulty in burning the refuse —No, I should say not, because of the quantity they use. It depends chiefly on the quantity they use; a small quantity might pass away without obser- vation, but I think that dyers could burn all their rasped wood with care. 11,646. You think there would be no difficulty in separating it from the liquid –Yes. 11,647. And that it might be prevented from going away ?—I am speaking as a cotton dyer. We scour the goods in the soap liquor, and it is then thrown down the drains. 11,648. What do you say becomes of the liquids after you have done with them —They are all turned down the sewers. 11,649. Have you obtained permission from any person to pass that liquor into the sewers ?–1 suppose so. There were dyers in the place 20 years before I purchased it. I asked no questions certainly, and I have had no objection made to it. 11,650. Do you think that the town authorities could prevent your passing these liquids into the sewer 2–I think not. I think there was an arrange- ment between my predecessor on the premises and the town, and, considering the time that the drain has been used since, I think a right has been established. It is 30 years since the drain was made. 11,651. That is not one of the sewers that has been constructed lately by the corporation ?–No, but it empties itself into one. I think the party from whom I bought the premises made a drain himself down a certain road (that I am not very much acquainted with), but since that time there has been for a portion of the way a new drain made, and that empties itself into the town sewer. 11,652. Have you tried any experiment to purify the water after it has been used for dyeing —No. 11,653. Do you know of any having been tried ?– I think not. If there was any, I think the remedy would be worse than the disease. It would require so much ground and take so much time that it would be something like the Bradford canal, the greatest nui- sance in the town. 11,654. Are you aware that Mr. Ripley does sepa- rate, not only the solids, but in a great measure the colouring matters ?—Yes, I am aware of all his doings. He does out of doors just what I do indoors. I never put in anything that requires separation. He sepa- rates the solids; we cannot put any solids down the 17159.-2, drains for fear of stopping the drains, and we might do as Mr. Ripley does under other circumstances. 11,655. Supposing you did pass the solid matter into the drains, and the drains were stopped up, who could remedy that mischief?—That I cannot speak to. It is a momentous piece of business when it comes, but I believe the town would have to do it if I could wait for them. We have done it ourselves ; we cannot wait a minute. Sometimes they send a man or two to help us, but it has never occurred but twice, when something had got into the drain in bulk, and had stopped the drain up. 11,656. The charge of the drain appears to be a joint stock between you and the town 2–Yes, I sup- pose it is. 11,657. From the manner in which you get your water, I presume that it is not polluted by any other dyer –It is not, before we get it. 11,658. Do you go to much expense in pumping 2– I take some water from the town as well. 11,659. How much do you take —Not much last year, our men have not had much to spare, but some- times we use perhaps 5,000 or 6,000 gallons a week. 11,660. Would you use more if you could obtain it 2 —Yes, if we could depend upon it; to get a large business and to be stopped is rather a serious affair. 11,661. Is the water that you get from the town suitable for dyeing 2–Yes, it is. 11,662. More so than your own water ?—No, it is not so good as mine. 11,663. What do they charge you for 1,000 gallons —I do not know the scale for what we use now ; but the lowest price is about 6d. per 1,000 gallons. 11,664. The scale is variable —Yes, it varies from 1s. to 6d. 11,665. (Chairman.) What is the lowest scale of charge at Bradford 2–According to the last list I saw I think it is about 2d. and a fraction for 30,000 gallons a day. 11,666. If you could have water supplied in bulk at 2d. per 1,000 gallons, would you use more ?—Yes, if we could be insured of it. 11,667. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you go to much ex- pense in pumping water P-No, but I have been at great expense in sinking and boring for it. 11,668. What expense have you incurred ?–From 1,000l. to 1,500/. 11,669. To what depth did you sink?—About 20 ards. 11,670. Did you bore besides 2–No. 11,671. Did you find much variation in the level of the water in your well at different seasons of the year? —Yes; just now I should think, in those springs, there would be something like 500,000 gallons a day. 11,672. What had you in the dry seasons, say the driest part of 1864 and 1865?–Perhaps 50,000 gallons. - 11,673. At what time of the year do you find that you get the minimum quantity —Ishould say it would be far into July or in August. If the weather is tolerably dry the springs will be as low then as at any time. 11,674. When do the springs fill and give you the largest volume of water –This year they filled up very soon, because the rains came on early. It de- pends upon the rains. I am not well acquainted with the quantity that I have in the summer; we only finished it last autumn. 11,675. What arrangement have you in your works as to privies?—We have privies, and we mix the sewage with soi, and use it for manure. 11,676. Upon your own land 2–Yes. 11,677. Do you find benefit result from it?—Yes. 11,678. Do you remove it daily —No, we have a heap of soil and we throw it over occasionally upon the refuse to keep it sweet; when there is any quantity collected we set some men to take it away. 11,679. Can you do that without causing any nuisance –Yes, we never had a complaint from any Olle near uS. 11,680. Nor is it any nuisance to yourself —No ; Z z HALIFAX. Mr. E. Ingham. 17 Nov. 1866. 362 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. - Mr. E. Ingham. 17 Nov. 1866. I live very near to the heap, and I never noticed it to be a nuisance. 11,681. Have you any waterclosets besides?—No, we live so near that we do not require them on the premises. 11,682. Have you lived long in Halifax –Yes; this time I have been here about nine years. I left Halifax for 10 years on account of business. 11,683. What was the condition of the Hebble at the earliest time you can remember it?–In about 1831 it was quite different from what it is now, it is now a good deal worse. 11,684. Was the water in the Hebble suitable for dyeing purposes then –Yes, I should say it was. I know of one dyer who used to wash in the beck, and I think that if he could do that he would be able to dye with it. 11,685. If you had been a dyer from that time to this should you consider that the pollution of the stream from that time had been injurious to your works?— Decidedly. 11,686. Therefore you think that the pollution having been allowed to go on has become an injury to certain dyers and others?—Yes, no doubt of it. 11,687. If the stream was restored to its former state would that be a boon to them —No, by no In ean S. 11,688. Why not?—Because if only one dyer was allowed to exist on the stream he would make the water in such a state that the others could not be very profitably employed. 11,689. But I mean supposing each dyer was obliged to purify the water before he passed it back into the beck —He could not purify it so as that the other dyers could use it ; if he turned it away it would de- prive the other dyers in a dry time of water for con- densing purposes. 11,690. Colonel Akroyd stated that by the use of lime, the solid matter being first separated and the liquid filtered, he had found it was quite possible, and within a small compass, to pass the water away from the works very nearly clear 2–It is possible, Idaresay, to treat a tumbler of water in that way, but to do that with what is used by all the dyers in Halifax would be a matter of great difficulty, the quantity upsets the idea altogether, here at all events. 11,691. That is to say there is no room for carry- ing out any mode that you have seen practised ? —Yes: again lime would be more injurious to the dyers below than the colouring matter in the water. I do not believe that water is any better for being made to look better by chemical means of that description. 11,692. Do you use chemicals in your dyeing process, which apart from the colouring matter in the water would make the water, after it passes from your premises, unfit for other dyers to use —Yes, decidedly, for general use ; there are some colours that would make the water unfit for general use after we had parted with it. º 11,693. Do you dye bright colours ?–Yes. 11,694. How do you dry your pieces 2–On cylin- ders heated with steam. 11,695. Used you formerly at any time to dry them in the open air —That was a common practice here once, but it would not be done now ; some dark colours might be so treated, but the atmosphere is hardly sufficiently good for fine colours and whites. 11,696. You find the smoke of the district disadvan- tageous in that respect 2–1 fancy so, but we should not use tenters now if we could. The cylinder system is quicker, and better in all ways. If there is to be any good done to the river above or below there is nothing like this, to get plenty of reservoir water to wash with. Filtering is under all circum- stances a remedy that would be worse than the disease, there would be a regular pestilence. 11,697. Do you desire a reservoir in order to flush out the river ?—Yes, to save the winter water for Summer uSe. 11,698. You would diminish the winter floods — Just so, but the winter floods would still be sufficient to do a deal of mischief if we may judge from yesterday. 11,699. Is not that rather an exceptional case ?— Yes. - 11,700. Your remedy is to increase the reservoir room and increase the steady supply of water; and further, you would prefer that the pollution should be allowed to pass into the river ?—Certainly; but it is not for me to say anything, because I could scarcely divest myself of selfish considerations; but situated as I am, I certainly should say so. 11,701. If it could be shown that you could purify the water, as Colonel Akroyd has suggested, in a small compass, without any great trouble or expense, do you think it would be fair to call upon the manufacturers to carry that out 2–That is another point. I believe that the 900 waterclosets in Halifax require us dyers to prevent a regular nuisance and pestilence. I believe that the acids we send down are a great deodoriser of the stream, and that but for them, the stream should be in a worse condition than it is ; and to divest this water of these deodorisers, and to continue to allow the sewage to run into it as it does from the town, I think would create a considerably greater mortality than there is. Therefore I believe that we dyers are great benefactors to the country. 11,702. But if the sewage is not sent into the stream your assistance will not be wanted 2–I do not think there is any system by which that water can be purified. 11,703. Supposing that the corporation determine to carry the sewage of the town on to the land and to utilize it there, but find that your dye waters are an injury, and make the sewage of less value for agri- cultural purposes, they may turn upon you and say, “We cannot allow you to pass your waste liquor into “ the sewers: you must take some steps to purify it.” What would you say to that ?—There would be no way but to call the acids alkalis; they would not interfere with the sewage. I believe that even sewage applied on land would make the country very un- healthy unless deodorisers are employed with it. I think that we dyers will be required to some extent, even in a sanitary point of view; the town authorities must use something to fix the bad gases, and I think we do that now, and the moderate quantity of stuff that we turn out would be useful as manure. 11,704. The further that is carried, of the less value in all probability you would make the sewage as manure ?–Yes, there would be a little too much certainly. 11,705. Sewage is undoubtedly a valuable article if properly applied ?–Yes. 11,706. It does not appear to be the best way of overcoming any practical difficulties that there may be, to diminish the value of the sewage —No ; as far as I am concerned I should have to shut up my works, I could not do anything. I have not room, and there are many dyers situated like me. 11,707. It might be otherwise, if you were shown a way of doing it within a small compass 2–You can- not do it. Lime will cure the evil to some extent. I am aware of that ; we use lime, but at the same time the water is worse when the lime is put in ; it is cleared to some extent, but it is no better than it was before for general purposes. 11,708. How is that ?—Because the lime is very detrimental to us as dyers. 11,709. But not to the manuring properties of the water 2–Not much so. 11,710. (Chairman.) Did you hear some questions put as to the prevention of throwing ashes into the river; I suppose you would say that some plan might be car- ried out 2–Yes; I believe there ought to be a law in this town to prevent it. It can be prevented. 11,711. Would it be beneficial if the river margin were protected and the bed of it improved, so that the sediment should be gradually passed away, and not allowed to accumulate 2—Yes. 11,712. You do not see your way to extracting the -- -ºl - Rivers COMMISSION:-i-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 363 colours from dye water, and you think that a mixture of chemical ingredients combined with the colours cannot possibly be injurious to health –Yes. 11,713. As far as you understand chemical pro- cesses, you think that if means are devised to extract the colouring matter by some chemical process, the water might be made brighter in appearance; but that it would be in reality more unfit for any purpose that you wanted it for 2–It would be less suitable for any manufacturing use. 11,714. It is quite possible for a bright water to be foul and unfit for dyeing purposes?–Yes. 11,715. You might have a bright looking water that would be more injurious than a dirtier water that had not any chemical ingredients in it —Just so. Water that is slightly coloured will do for dyeworks, but water is more plentiful now on account of the town supplying water. We used it to take the beck water at Bradford to dye colours with ; we were com- pelled to do so or else we should have had to shut up our works for want of water. 11,716. You, as a dyer, would be willing to do all that was practicable to prevent the river being ob- structed by solids 2–Decidedly, I think all that ought to be done. - 11,717. You do not see your way to any practical interference to compel you to abstract the colouring matter –No. 11,718. You think that it must go down the stream as it does now 2–Yes. 11,719. And although the water may be discoloured you believe that it will not be injurious to health?—Yes. The witness withdrew. Mr. Joseph TRAvis CLAY (Rastrick) examined. 11,720. (Chairman.) Are you a resident in the borough of Halifax?—No. Ilive at the extreme eastern boundary of the parish. 11,721. What trade do you carry on ?—I manu- facture the finest fancy cloth. 11,722. Is it made from wool or from a combination of wool and cotton –It is principally worsted; very fine worsted and some foreign wool. 11,723. Your works are situated at Rastrick, I be- lieve 2–Yes. 11,724. How far distant from the town-hall — About four miles. 11,725. Upon what stream are they –It is a very small stream which runs into the Calder opposite to Brighouse. 11,726. What number of hands do you employ — About 80 on the premises. 11,727. Do you use any kind of water or steam power —We use steam power, large boiler power, but small engine power—about 50-horse boiler power and about 12-horse engine power. 11,728. What weight of coal do you burn per annum? —About 600 tons. - 11,729. What do you do with the ashes —We throw them out, and there is generally plenty of demand for thmm, for mending roads and making footpaths. 11,730. Do any of them find their way into the stream?—Not any ; indeed the stream is too small to carry any. 11,731. Have you any form of refuse from the manufacture besides the ashes 2–There will be a good deal of dirt in solution. 11,732. With the water 2–Yes. 11,733. What volume of water do you use in a day? It is very difficult to state the quantity ; the bore-hole supplies about 7,000 gallons a day, and theri we have a small stream of water coming down, and that stream varies very much in quantity; we use all the water whether little or much. 11,734. Do you get water from any other source besides the stream 2–The stream and the bore-hole. 11,735. What depth is that bore-hole sunk?—About 40 yards. 11,736. What do you pump from it 2–It raises to the surface about 7,000 gallons a day. 11,737. Of what diameter is the bore-hole 2–About three inches. 11,738. What is the quality of the water 2–It is a little harder than the surface water. 11,739. You can use it for your work, but it is a little hard 2–Yes, it is a little hard ; the surface water is very good. 11,740. Does the bore-hole water vary in volume at all at any particular times of the year 2–Last summer it was rather less, but taking it generally it is very uniform. 11,741. It flows uniformly over the surface into the reservoir 2–Yes. 11,742. Do you dye on your premises –Yes, a good deal. --- 11,743. What weight of materials do you dye per annum ?—We do not dye a great weight; it is very fine material, and the weight is not very large ; I cannot give you the particulars. 11,744. Do you use soap 2–Yes, a considerable quantity. 11,745. And oil 2–We use about 5 cwt. of soap a week, and there is a little oil with the yarn. The principal part of the material that we use we buy in the spun state in the yarn. 11,746. What becomes of the soapsuds?—They run down the watercourse. 11,747. You do not so deal with soapsuds as to attempt to extract the soap 2–Not at all. 11,748. Would it not pay ?—It is impossible to extract the soap from an immense quantity of water in comparison to the soap that is used. 11,749. Because the soap is so much diluted 2– Yes. 11,750. Have you ever tried what effect the soap waste would have on grass land?—We have no grass land below us over which we have any power. From the peculiar stratification of Rastrick it is perfectly impossible to attempt anything of that sort without injury to other parties. 11,751. Is the place so thickly peopled below you? No, but the water supply to the village is from wells, and the surface of Rastrick is on the flagstone series; it rests on a bed of shale, which is perfectly impermeable to water, and if dirty water is thrown upon the surface it sinks into the wells and pollutes them. 11,752. Do you obtain water from your bore-hole from the flagstone 2–No, below it. The water sinks through the flagstone and runs out at the point of the junction of the flagstone and the shale. 11,753. Therefore all the wells derive their water from the same level almost 2–The same geological level. 11,754. The same outcropping —Yes. 11,755. Has there never been any attempt made to utilize the soap refuse from your manufactory or any other in Rastrick?–Not at all. I may say that the manufacturing operations in Rastrick are only small; there are only four mills on the stream, two above me and one below me. 11,756. How far down have you ever noticed the effect of the water refuse of the district —Until it joins the Calder. 11,757. Is the water discoloured all the way down 2 —Yes. 11,758. It does not lose its colour 2–The distance is too small. The whole length of the watercourse from the highest mill to the Calder is about a mile and a half, and the stream is very rapid. 11,759. It flows and disappears in the Calder – Yes; there are 400 feet of fall in one and a half miles; the water rapidly runs away. 11,760. Have you any refuse dyewoods in a chipped or rasped form 2–A small quantity; we burn the dyewood. 11,761. Chipped and rasped as well ?–Yes. HALIFAX. Mr. E. Ingham. 17 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. T. Clay. -- Z z 2 364 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, HALIFAX. Mr. J. T. Clay. 17 Nov. 1866. 11,762. Have you any smoke prevention apparatus in any of your boilers?—No. 11,763. Do you pass thick smoke into the atmos- phere 2–Yes, occasionally. 11,764. Did it ever occur to you to try to prevent the loss of fuel by preventing smoke —Yes, we have tried various schemes at different times. 11,765. Have they not answered 2–No. I have just put another boiler down to have abundance of boiler room, and I believe that that is the best means we can adopt. 11,766. If it can be shown that by careful firing the smoke can be prevented, should you consider it a great hardship if you were compelled to make your men fire more carefully —No, I do all I can now to effect that. 11,767. And perhaps you would not like to be in- terfered with P-I would rather not. 11,768. Would you rather continue to make smoke * —I would make as little as I could help in any case. 11,769. If a regulation were made that no manufac- turers should make smoke, or that they should use the best means they could to prevent it, do you think that would be a great hardship?—If it could be done I would do the best I could to accomplish the purpose. 1,770. Have you privies or waterclosets on your premises for the workpeople –There are four privies and one watercloset which is very little used. 11,771. Do you do anything with the refuse –It is mixed with ashes and carried on to the land by farmers. 11,772. You do not pass it into a sewer P-No. 11,773. I suppose there is nothing to prevent any manufacturers establishing themselves on the stream : —There is not sufficient water for any more manu- facturers on that stream ; it is as fully occupied as it can be. 11,774. You think that it is used up 2–Yes. 11,775. Then you are living with the idea that you will not be interfered with by any person above you ? —I may say that previously to 1857 we had no mills above us. At that time two mills were established. There was a dyehouse formerly, and we found great diffi- culty from its fouling the water. We had two lawsuits which went to the assizes about that matter. In 1857 two mills were erected which discharged a great quan- tity of refuse into the stream. I complained about it. I threatened proceedings, and the owners and occupiers now bring us clear water from some springs, and we allow the refuse to come down the watercourse without complaining, so that the whole of the clear water which can possibly be obtained is taken. 11,776. Then you have arranged amongst yourselves as to pure water, and you have also arranged that the polluted water shall pass down into the main stream 2–Yes; we use the polluted water for con- densing purposes for the boilers, and the pure water from some of these springs supplies us with water for dyeing and scouring. 11,777. Were these lawsuits gone on with ?—Yes, two were gone on with. - 11,778. What did they cost you?—The law suits were before my time. 11,179. But I suppose that lawsuits are occasionally rather costly —There is a gentleman in this room who can tell much better what they cost than I can. The last lawsuit which we had, I think, was in 1823. 11,780. Do you think that, as the law stands now, there is a liability of individual millowners getting into quarrels and disputes and into lawsuits with regard to these water rights –Certainly, a very great probability. 11,781. And do you think that it would be an advantage if there were some superior tribunal to settle what should be and what should not be with- out all this great cost 2–I do not see any tribunal except the courts of law of the kingdom; I do not see how any special tribunal could be instituted. 11,782. Do you not think that a conservancy could be established which should have jurisdiction and authority over the river basin, so as to lay down general rules and bring all manufacturers into one order of proceeding 2–If I had been supplied with water for an indefinite length of time, I should not be disposed to submit my rights to the arbitration of any conservancy, and I should much prefer the courts of justice. 11,783. The common law of the land 2–The common law of the land. 11,784. Supposing that your stream was a little larger than it is, and that it would enable half a dozen more dyeworks or mills to be established above you, and that those individuals chose to use that stream for every purpose which they thought an advantage to themselves, throwing their ashes, besides solid refuse of every other kind, and divers forms of pollution, into the river, would you rather be in a condition to indict them, and to fight the matter out, than simply to appeal to a board which could stop them in an instant?—I should be very glad if there was a board which could stop them in an instant. 11,785. And a board which could not only stop them, but compel them to do something which would be not only for the benefit of themselves, but greatly for your benefit —But any powers which that board could exercise must devolve upon them by some law of the land. 11,786. Of course Parliament must devise a new law. At present all you gentlemen in Yorkshire do just as you like —I cannot quite agree in that. 11,787. Is it not so —You, I daresay, know other districts besides your own. Is it the fact that the rivers are polluted —Very greatly. 11,788. Is it the fact that that pollution has grown up within the last 20 years ?–Very greatly indeed. 11,789. Is it the fact that as trade increases, and more work is done, that pollution will increase ?–Yes. 11,790. Is that a desirable state of things —By no Ill CallS. 11,791. Can the common law stop it —I cannot answer that question. 11,792. Do you think that it can 2–I think that it scarcely can, because it would be so difficult to fix the blame upon any particular individual. 11,793. You have a thousand people committing a nuisance, and you have one person single-handed to sue them —Yes. 11,794. Is there any chance of success there P Sup- posing that you are situated below Halifax, you have to face the borough of Halifax and all the inhabitants of it, whatever nuisance they commit upon you?—I decidedly think it necessary that there should be a means of protection. 11,795. Do not you think that a conservancy board would be no more afraid of the borough of Halifax than it would be of the simplest manufacturer in the district # It would have authority to interfere with the largest proprietors or any number of the largest proprietors, and the machinery would be as simple to deal with them as it would be to deal with an indi- vidual 2–It would depend upon the constitution of the Board. 11,796. Do you not think that if a conservancy board were formed it should be formed of repre- sentatives of suitable interests —That is the great difficulty. 11,797. But things which are difficult are not impossible 2–Certainly not. 11,798. Do you not think that you would be using your time very profitably if you for a short time thought of that point, and if, when the question had to be discussed, you tried to make the board an efficient one —I have thought a great deal about the subject of pollution of rivers. 11,799. But yet you have come to the conclusion that you would rather be left alone – I would rather be left alone personally, that is all. 11,800. Could not you divest yourself of a little of that selfishness (I do not use the word offensively— we are all of us selfish), and look at the question a little more broadly?—I have made my answer upon that assumption. - RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 365 11,801. A man should work for himself, but he should also work in a broader and more catholic spirit, and should see that there are other persons besides himself. True self interest is that which considers the welfare of the state; selfishness is so developed into philanthropy –With respect to the pollution of the river, I think that it is quite impossible to look to the river being made perfectly pure. 11,802. We will not consider absolute purity, but what is a practical improvement. If 20 tons of solids are thrown in what do you say?—They should not be thrown in. 11,803. But persons say that they have done so for 50 years, and that they have a right to do it?—I cannot conceive how a person can have a right to throw solids into the river. My opinion is that all solid matter should be kept out of the river. It is perfectly impossible to keep out foul water holding certain matters in suspension. 11,804. You mean the dye matters?—Yes, the liquor. 11,805. Supposing that all matters in suspension are kept out, the water in itself would never become offensive, would it?—No. 11,806. It is the solid part which is offensive — Yes, the offensive portion arises chiefly from the animal matter contained in the wool. 11,807. That animal matter, the oil and the grease, can be taken out, and is taken out to a great extent? —A certain portion is taken out. 11,808. Do you know that the manufacturers of Yorkshire at this moment are receiving not less than 100,000l. a year for waste products from washing water —Yes, some manufacturers may be receiving a large sum of money, and other manufacturers may not be able to receive a farthing. 11,809. We have an estimate from very competent persons that 100,000l. a year, namely, 2,000l. a week, is now paid back for the refuse which formerly passed into the river ?–In the case of certain manufacturers the soap is capable of being extracted, as they let out their soapsuds in such a state that it can be done, but other manufacturers, of whom I am one, send out their soapsuds in such a diluted state that it is impossible to restore the soap. 11,810. It would be impossible to restore the soap so as to pay you a profit —I believe that it would be physically impossible. 11,811. That is a question of chemistry. We have competent authority for stating that 100,000l. a year is paid for the waste soap recovered, but the same authority of his own knowledge says that soap to at least the extent of another 100,000l. a year is care- lessly passed into the river, which could as easily be recovered as that soap which is now recovered 2– Suppose that I have 1 lb. of soap in 1,000 gallons of water, or even 100 gallons of water, I say that it is impossible to restore it. 11,812. It is not impossible; if you mean impossible abstractedly I say no º-All things are possible. 11,813. That is possible at all events, mechanically, because, without being a chemist, I may tell you that I could by boiling evaporate away all that water, and leave a residuum at the bottom, but I do not state that it would be possible practically 2–I am merely speaking of it practically. 11,814. If chemistry can discharge (which it does) soap from a certain volume of water, it is not fair to say that because the soap is more largely diluted, it is impossible to take it out; it may not be practical as a paying concern, and it may not be advisable 2–We wash our pieces beginning with their being dirty, till the water comes out quite clear, and therefore it is in every state of dilution. 11,815. Suppose that you had a tank of the size of this room, and that you were obliged to pass all the refuse water in so that the sediment should go out at the bottom, and that the water should flow out at the top —That would be a very good plan where people have room ; if the effluvium were not a nuisance, which it probably would be, 11,816. What is to prevent your being made to have room?—Because I could not find it. I could not extend my works an inch in the direction which would be required for that purpose. 11,817. Of course I do not know what the works are —I am now speaking of old works. I entirely agree with you that in all new works something like what you have described would be most advantageous, but my works have been in operation for from 60 to 70 years, and other works of the same kind in Halifax are in a circumscribed position. A dyer or manu- facturer may not have another inch of ground which is not appropriated, which is my case, and therefore he could not make those tanks. 11,818. And do you say that he has no money to buy any land outside –We come immediately upon a turnpike road. 11,819. There is land upon the opposite side of the road 2–Yes. 11,820. And I suppose that a pipe of 4 inches diameter would carry the refuse water from your works anywhere?—Yes; I should be very glad if everybody was made to do it. 11,821. (Mr. Harrison.) Would you object to do it if all others were made to do it?—No, because it would be a very great benefit to me if my neighbours above me would do it ; it would be of far more benefit to me than the cost of my having to do it myself. 11,822. (Chairman.) If there was a general con- servancy board, and you said to them, “I cannot “ carry out these regulations of yours, because there “ is no room on my premises.” Either you might individually go where there was room, or the conser- vancy board might say to you, “We see that you have “ not room here, but we, under our powers, will take “ your soapsuds and your refuse water to a place “ where there is room, and combine them with those “ of other manufacturers, and they shall be dealt “ with ; and it will cost you so much per annum ; “ we will ask you to pay for what you cannot do “ yourself, and we will do it for you ?”—It would be very capital thing. 11,823. When we are speaking in that way, I am only supposing that it would be something which you could afford to pay. If the refuse is now costing you nothing as you are wasting it, you might not like to pay 50l. a year for it, but if every other person in the same trade and similarly situated were put under the same restrictions, it would then be a matter of arrange- ment between you and the general public, and you would have to charge so much more for your dyeing 2 —So far as I am personally concerned, I should be very glad if it could be done ; it would be a benefit to me, inasmuch as I should receive all the water from the beck in a state fit for use. 11,824. Is there anything which you would wish to add to your evidence 2–I was summoned here to give evidence as to the Rastrick stream, and now that I am here, I should like to say a few words upon the state of the Calder, which is the principal stream. The Calder skirts Rastrick for about two miles, and within the last 20 years it has amazingly increased in foulness. About 20 years ago it was a very pure stream, plenty of trout were caught in it, and it was a very great amusement to the weavers to go and fish there; but now there is nothing of the kind to be seen. I have made a few memoranda respecting the Calder, and I have arrived at much the same con- clusions as those which you have indicated, that is to say, with regard to the corporation of Halifax, which I consider to be the great sinner in the neighbourhood, I think that they ought to provide means to catch the solid part of their refuse before they send it into the Calder. My idea with regard to this question gene- rally is, that we must abandon the Calder as a source of pure water, and that everybody should be compelled to retain all solid matters, so as to render the Calder innoxious to the health and comfort of the people; and that we must look to the higher ground in the parish for a supply of pure water for 8. HALIFAX. Mr. J. T. Clay. 17 Nov. 1866. Z z 3 366 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. Mr. J. T. Clay. 17 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. W. Child. --- manufactures. The Halifax corporation, as you have had evidence, are making very large reservoirs, and I consider that to be the direction to which we must look for a supply of pure water. The enormous rain- fall which there is in this neighbourhood would provide plenty of water for every purpose, without interfering with the volume of water required to cleanse the river. The witness withdrew. The witness subsequently forwarded to the Commissioners the following letter: Rastrick, near Halifax, GENTLEMEN, Nov. 22d, 1866. IN reference to the evidence which I had the honour to give before the Commission on Saturday last, I beg leave to hand to you the result of experiments made to ascertain the proportion of solid matter in the refuse poured into the stream from worsted dyehouses. 1st. I took 6 oz. = 2,625 grains of soapsuds of the ordinary strength and evaporated to dryness. The - -" 1. result was 6 grains of solid matter or ºn After scouring with soap the goods are washed in pure water, and I calculate the proportion of soap to the whole of the water passing through the machines as 1 in 800. It must be noted that the animal matter had been removed from the wool in the first operation by the spinner, and no doubt the product was sold. 2nd. I took the same quantity, say 2,625 grains of the decoction of logwood chips after the dyeing process was completed, evaporated to dryness, and found a residuum of 7 grains or a Hº. This refuse as discharged into the stream is of a dark claret colour, and tinges a very large volume of water, so that a casual observer could scarcely credit how small a portion of solid matter is contained therein, I have the honor to be, &c. (Signed) J. TRAVIS CLAY, F.G.S. To the Rivers Commission. &c. &c. &c. Mr. JoHN WRIGHT CHILD (Halifax) examined. 11,825. (Chairman.) Are you a resident in the borough of Halifax?—Not in the borough, but in a district immediately adjoining. 11,826. Do you carry on any form of manufacture ? —Yes, Mr. Akroyd's, not my own. 11,827. Where are the works situated 2–At Copley, on the bank of the Calder. 11,828. What is the business?—Worsted spinning principally. 11,829. Are they the same works as Mr. Akroyd spoke to yesterday?—A portion of the same; he was principally speaking about Bowling Dyke, which is within the borough; these works are not in the borough but about half a mile outside of it. 11,830. What number of hands do you employ –- About 850. 11,831. What horse power do you use at those special works?—About 120 nominal steam, and an average of 30-horse water power. 11,832. What weight of coal do you consume per annum ?– About 3,000 tons in a year for the engines. 11,833. What do you do with the ashes which you make?—We bury them. 11,834. You do not pass them into the stream 2– No. 11,835. Have you waterclosets or privy accommo- dation ?–Privies entirely. 11,836. What do you do with the refuse?—We take it away. 11,837. You do not pass it into the stream 2– No. 11,838. Do you dye and wash P-We do not dye, We SCOur. 11,839. What weight of soap do you use per annum? –Only a small quantity; we only wash about 25 packs a week there; of soap and alkali together we use about 800 lbs. a week. 11,840. Do you use any acids?—No. 11,841. Any oil?–Only a very small quantity. 11,842. What volume of water do you use per week?—For condensing purposes about 470,000 gal- lons a day; nearly the whole of that is returned into the river in the same state, with the addition of a little heat; about 3,000 gallons of it would be used for scouring purposes. 11,843. You have obtained water from the river entirely?—Yes, with the exception of a small spring for domestic purposes. 11,844. Then you do not obtain any from the waterworks 2–No. 11,845. What becomes of the waste refuse from the soap washing 2—It is sent into the river. 11,846. Do you utilize any of it?—No. 11,847. Is it too poor for you to utilize it —The quantity is too small to pay for the capital which would be necessary to convert it. 11,848. If there were general regulations as to the stream, would you object to being made to purify that small volume 2—Business people do not often wish to do anything at a loss. I may say that there are works for the conversion of soap, within a few hun- dred yards of the place, but they will not take away our refuse suds even at a gift. 11,849. Supposing that the extraction of soap from your water involved a loss, but not any very serious loss, do you think that it could be done?—Yes. 11,850. Or suppose that you had sediment tanks and extracted the soap by letting it fall down and let- ting the effluent water pass away 2–1 should not like a nuisance of that kind about the place, exposed to the sun and the air. 11,851. Is it a fact that soap waste when it becomes stagnant is very offensive?—Yes. 11,852. Then any deposit from that soap waste in a river as large as the Calder, if subsequently exposed on the banks, would be liable to become corrupt and a nuisance?—Yes, if it was exposed on the banks; but if the dilution was sufficient I do not think that it would be so. - 11,853. Do you know in what condition the Calder is in a very hot summer and in dry weather ?–It is much worse than it used to be. 11,854. Are noxious gases given off upon the banks 2–I think not ; the banks are too steep ; it may be so lower down the valley. il,855. I suppose that the general pollution of the Calder is made up of littles?—Yes. 11,856. And every item which is added is an ad- dition to the pollution ?—Yes. 11,857. And the prevention, as far as practicable, would have to be applied to both small and great?— Yes. 11,858. Do you use any means at your works to prevent smoke?—Not at present; we did sometime ago, but we did not find it very effectual. 11,859. Did you use any patent —Yes, Jukes's. 11,860. Why did you discontinue Jukes's patent apparatus?–On acconnt of the trouble which there was with it. 11,861. Did it give you the power which was required 2–No, we had to press it. 11,862. To force it 2–Yes. 11,863. At present does your chimney send forth smoke considerably 2–No, not in proportion to the quantity of coal used. We have plenty of boiler room, and we give the men directions to be as careful in firing as they possibly can be. I think that if the men fired more frequently, and with less coal at a time, and allowed a fair admixture of air, according to the quantity which they put on, it might be better still. 11,864. Then, I suppose, that any general regu- lation which put all manufacturers under the same restrictions would not be obnoxious to yourself?–No. RIVERS COMMISSION :--MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 367 The difficulty is in making the workmen attend to orders. 11,865. The authority would have to interfere with you, and not with the workmen —Yes; I do not see any other way. 11,866. You would not like any external authority to step between you and your workmen —I think that it would not be advisable. 11,867. But any general interference must be with the manufacturer, and he must find means to interfere with his workmen —Yes. 11,868. How long have you known the Calder – 25 years. 11,869. In what condition was it when you first knew it as compared with its present condition ?–It was more clean than it is now ; of course every dwell- ing house and every manufactory established on its banks makes it worse. 11,870. Then, as the country increases in manu- facturing and commercial wealth, if things are left as they are the river is likely to get more foul ?—I do not think that that is a necessary consequence. If, at every manufactory which was set up, and at every dwelling house which was set up, there was a sufficient supply of water independent of the stream, that is to say, from waterworks, I do not see that the pollution would increase. 11,871. Do you think that if the district is left alone there will be an improvement, or that it will be as heretofore, that with an addition of population there will be an additional pollution ?—I think that it is very likely that pollution will increase. I do not see any mode of remedying it except by an additional sup- ply of water. 11,872. Do you think that the establishment of these reservoirs, and the bringing in of an additional supply of water, sufficiently dilutes the polluted water —I think that it is the most practical mode of dealing with the matter. 11,873. It does not get rid of the pollution ?–No ; 1 do not see how the fine matters held in suspension, such as the colouring matters, or matter held in chemical solution, can be got rid of. I think that a general law prohibiting heavy matters, such as ashes and dyewood, being thrown into the stream, would be generally acceded to, and carried out. 11,874. But you think that if the dyers and printers and manufacturers generally were told that they must restore the streams and rivers to a state of purity, it would be impracticable, and would be resisted 2–I think so. It would be impracticable. It is possible to filter the water, and to send it into the river perhaps in a clear state, but still all the matters chemically in solution must pass so far as I know. - 11,875. Have you ever tried any experiment with a smaller quantity of water, allowing it to settle and seeing what became of it —I have not. We do not dye at all. 11,876. Are you aware that the great mass of the colouring matter is not chemically combined with the water, but is mechanically suspended in it 2–It is mechanically suspended to some extent, I think, but not entirely. 11,877. Is not that proved on a grand scale in your rivers, because as they flow downwards by exposure to the sun and the air, and the earth forming the bed of the river, the water loses its colouring matter as it goes to the sea —Yes. 11,878. Showing that it is not a chemical but a mechanical combination –It may show that, but I think that some reformation of matter takes place, and that the improvement may not be entirely owing to the process of filtration. 11,879. The action of the atmosphere has a great in- fluence in bleaching matters in water P-Undoubtedly. 11,880. You say that you have never made any experiment with dye waters; you do not dye –We do not, and I have not tried the experiment. I merely say that some of the colouring matter must be in chemical solution, or otherwise it would not permeate the whole fibre of the wool for instance. 11,881. There are chemical ingredients put in which no doubt enter into chemical combination, and which are inseparable, except by evaporation ?– Yes. 11,882. (Mr. Harrison.) Did you hear Colonel Akroyd say yesterday that he had tried an experiment with lime —I did not hear his evidence yesterday. I have heard him speak about it. 11,883. He stated it as his opinion from certain knowledge, that the application of lime would separate the solid dye matters which were in suspension, and leave the water very nearly bright, and that by means of a simple filtering apparatus all that solid matter might in his opinion be separated, and the water allowed to pass off very nearly clear –Perhaps it might be done, the lime would take up the acid. 11,884. Do you think that it would be a right thing to provide that that should be done P-Yes, as far as it was practicable, but I think that on a large scale it could not be carried out. 11,885. (Chairman.) Have you anything to add to your evidence, or any remark to offer —No, except on the matter of conservancy. As I have said before, I think that throwing heavy matters into the river would not be done by every one, but would be done by some people, whereas a law to prevent it would be obligatory. 11,886. A conservancy would have jurisdiction over the entire river area, to put everybody in the same situation –Yes, as far as regards solids. 11,887. And to carry out improvements in the river and its tributaries?—Yes. 11,888. Do you think that some of the tributaries might be materially improved by having their channels straightened, and their beds deepened and cleansed ? —Perhaps they might. Such a flood as we had yesterday, or any flood in the winter does that. 11,889. But it does it with a considerable amount of mischief occasionally –Yes. 11,889a. Floods are rather wayward 2–Yes. 11,890. They do not respect either persons or pro- perty —If all the water which has fallen upon the hills during the last few days could have been stored there, it would have been a considerable quantity. 11,891. (Mr. Guy.) I should like to make one observation. I saw that some complaint was made immediately above my works, and that it was said that there was a considerable effluvium. It was caused simply by an obstruction in the watercourse, so that the water, instead of running down at a rapid rate, was retained, and it made this disagreeable smell. If what would be called a sud pond was made immediately below, that evil would be always in existence. 11,892. (Chairman.) You think that the remedy in that form would be worse than the disease ?–Yes. 11,893. (Mr. Harrison.) But the water from your works flows into the Calder 2–Yes. 11,894. And it carries that refuse with it generally * —Yes. 11,895. In the lower parts of the Calder there are works, and during a droughty season the refuse is exposed upon the banks of the river, and it is found to be a nuisance to people residing in the neighbourhood, therefore the nuisance which you have experienced at your own particular dwelling is actually experienced by many people lower down the river, almost every- where, showing that under the present system the remedy is deferred 2–Yes, everybody wants to get rid of the nuisance by giving it to someone else. The witness withdrew. Mr. FREDERICK WILLIAM CRONHEL.M (Halifax) examined. 11,896. (Chairman.) What business is carried on at your establishment 2–The name of our place is Canal Mills ; it is chiefly a woollen mill, it is also a worsted mill. We have likewise a dyehouse and finishing works. In short we receive the wool into the works at one end and send out the finished goods HALIFAX. Mr. J. W. Child. 17 Nov. 1866. Mr. F. W. Cronhelm. Z z 4 368 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. Mr. F. W. Cronhelm. 17 Nov. 1866. - in bales at the other. We have a complete arrange- ment for the manufacture and the finishing, including the dyeing. 11,897. Where are the works situated —Close to the canal. 11,898. What is the canal known as 2–It is the Calder and Hebble Navigation. 11,899. Do you use the water of the canal for your manufacturing purposes, or merely for traffic *-We use it partially when we are very short of water. We have permission to use it, but we refrain from using it as much as we possibly can, inasmuch as the water is not so pure as we get elsewhere. 11,900. What number of hands do you employ at your works?—The whole number is about 500, more or less. - 11,901. Have you steam power or water power — Only steam power. 11,902. Do you know what power you employ?— You are aware of the distinction between nominal horse power and real horse power. We have three steam engines, and the nominal power is 120 horse, but we consider it fully equal to double that, or 240 horse. 11,903. What weight of coals do you consume per annum ?–In preparing to answer this question, I took the average of several years, and I found the average to be 4,500 tons. 11,904. What do you do with the ashes from the consumption of that coal —I must explain to the Commissioners the position of our works. Part of the works are on the north side of the canal, close to the canal; on the other side of the canal we have the dye-house, the duling room, and the finishing works; those are situated between the canal and the river Calder. Then eastward from our works we have a large holme, which lies very low, and in flood times it is a complete lake, as was the case yesterday. We endeavour to raise the level of this holme so high that any extension of the works eastwards should not be subject to floods or encroachments from the river, therefore all our ashes are brought on to this holme, and we gradually cover its surface and elevate its level. 11,905. Have you at all protected the water so that the ashes shall not fall in, or be washed away by flood waters ?—Entirely so. 11,906. You do not pass them into the watercourse * —Not at all; we take them in carts from the furnaces, and spread them upon the holme. 11,907. Have you privy accommodation or water- closet accommodation for your hands 2—We have both. 11,908. Does any of the effete matter pass into the streams or rivers ?–No. 11,909. You utilize it?—Yes, it is carried away to a manure heap. 11,910. It is not passed into the stream 2–No. 11,911. Do you carry on dyeing upon the premises —We do. 11,912. Do you use dyewoods of various kinds – We do. 11,913. Logwood and other woods –Yes. 11,914. Do you use them in the chip and in the rasped state —No, they are all in the ground state. Í1,915. Do you extract the solid matter from the dye refuse before passing it down the stream —There is very little solid matter left in the dye water, which passes into the river Calder, only the crude particles of the ground wood. 11,916. What weight of wood do you use per annum ?—I am sorry that that question was not in the list of printed questions sent to me. 11,917. Do you use besides the dyewoods any chemicals, acids or alkalis, or soap – Yes. 11,918. Do you know what weight of soap you use * —Neither the soap nor the oil is mentioned amongst the questions which I was appointed to answer. 11,919. Do you utilize any of the soap refuse?— Yes, the soapsuds are restored to oil, and to a tallowy kind of matter. 11,920. Do you know what is paid to you per annum for the recovery of your soap waste —Yes, I can tell you that to a penny, because we do not carry on the operation ; we let it. 11,921. And the party to whom you let it pays you a rental for it —Yes, there is a person who takes the soapsuds of several manufactories in our neighbourhood in the same way. 11,922. What does he pay you ?—He pays us 60l. per annum. 11,923. You have not a very large weight of soap 2 No ; the nature of our fabrics is such that they do not take so much soap. 11,924. How long do you remember the state of the canal and the rivers near your works 2–About 70 years. 11,925. In what condition were they when you first knew them as compared with what they are now * —They were much purer than they are now. I remember when I was a boy fishing in the Calder, and it was a very great amusement for me, and I frequently caught fine trout and other fish, but now there is an end to all that. 11,926. Is the canal more impure than it was when you first knew it —Undoubtedly so. 11,927. Do you think that it is still becoming more impure ?—I consider that it is. 11,928. Is it a nuisance in dry weather as regards its smell?—The effluvium from the canal in dry wea- ther is very offensive. 11,929. Have your workpeople ever complained of it —Yes, they have observed it more or less, especially those who reside in cottages near. 11,930. Where do you get the water which you use for your manufacturing processes —We get it partly from a large reservoir which we have in Skircoat above the works on the hill side, and partly also from a pump which pumps the river water into a cistern, not immediately from the river near us, but from what is called the Stannard; the stream of water permeates the river bed much higher up, and flows along what was formerly the bed of the river; there is a pebbly stratum over which it flows. 11,931. And you get your reservoir partially filled in that way —Yes, it is certainly purer than the water on the banks near the works. 11,932. Have you any water supplied by any com- pany, or from any artificial waterworks —No ; we have contemplated in droughty weather applying to the Halifax Company for a supply, but we have not yet availed ourselves of it. 11,933. Do you at any period sludge or cleanse the reservoir upon your own premises which belongs to you ?—The great reservoir has not been cleansed or sludged more than once in a great many years. 11,934. Where did the refuse pass when you cleansed or sludged it 2–It was flushed out by water into the canal; the canal is between our main factory and the reservoir; the river Calder is on the other side of our dyeworks. 11,935. What do the canal people say to you ?–We never heard any complaint from them. 11,936. Do they dredge the canal by dredge boats 2 —They do. 11,937. Then any solid matters passed in would have to be dredged out by their dredge boats —Yes; I very well recollect that the dredge boats have been long at work immediately opposite our works, and I think that they dredge about once a year. 11,938. Do you carry largely upon the canal; are you good customers to the canal people –We are; we get the whole of our heavy materials, the whole of our coal, and a large portion of our oil by the canal; we contribute largely to the dues of the canal; we think that the canal people do not consider that sufficiently. I will tell you in what respect. For the better carrying on of our works we have several galleries or covered bridges between the great mill, which is on the north side of the canal, and the dye- works and finishing works on the south side of the canal. I think that we have five or six bridges and covered galleries, and they have latterly began to claim a rate for the privilege of erecting these struc- RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 369 tures over their canal, though they do not in the least interfere with the navigation. 11,939. The canal company, I suppose, wish to have the right of stopping them if they choose —Yes, we pay them 10l. a year as bridge rent. 11,940. They would not have been content with 10 peppercorns?—No. 11,941. (Mr. Harrison.) You say that you re- member the Calder in former years in a very much purer condition than it is in now?—Certainly. 11,942. Have you observed any difference in the bed of the river; has it risen at all?—Very materially indeed. Besides our other mills we have two large mills higher up, called Mereclough Mills, one being Mereclough in Norland, on the south side of the Calder, and the other Mereclough in Skircoat, on the north bank of the Calder. The water power is ex- ceedingly valuable; the Weir forms a river dam. We find that dam so materially filled up that I believe the water power has been reduced more than one half as compared to what it used to be. The depth at the weir head instead of being from 4 to 6 feet has, I believe, at times been reduced as low as 2 feet. 11,943. What is the character of the materials which you find in the bed of the river causing that raising —There is a variety of materials; great abuses are committed ; ashes are thrown into both the river Calder and its tributaries, and all that is so cast into the tributaries goes into the Calder. But the greatest nuisance which we have found has been from the chemical works which are very near. 11,944. Where are they —There is only one set of works between the chemical works and the weir, and those are the gasworks; the gasworks are recent, the chemical works are an old establishment. 11,945. Do the gasworks send any refuse into the river ?—The gas water or the gas tar, when sent into the river, is very injurious to our dyeing, but it does not so much fill the bed. Opposite my counting-house I can see the whole bed of the river covered with a sort of film, which, when the sun shines upon it, reflects all the different tints; that is exceedingly injurious to our dyeing. 11,946. How long is it since you saw such refuse as that in the river ?—I have seen it within the last two months. I have twice written a remonstrance to the manager of the gasworks upon the subject; he has always apologised and said that it was accidental and should not be repeated. 11,947. But that did not remedy the mischief which was done to your cloth —No. In fact we had to stop the pump from which we filled the large cistern over the dye house; that pump is from the river water, not from the water immediately opposite our works, but from a well sunk in what we call the Stannard, the ancient bed of the river, through which the water still filters its way. 11,948. Do you find that the water so filtered by this ancient bed is improved by that filtration —Yes, but it commences far above the gasworks. When we see the film which I have described to you coming down the river we immediately stop pumping so as to keep the water pure. 11,949. You know that there is no excuse for the gasworks pumping any of their water into the river, those materials being so valuable :-Yes, that has always been alleged. The gaswork are under the local board, at Sowerby Bridge, and the manager has always asserted to me in correspondence that it was quite unnecessary and was a loss to them, and that he would take every pains in his power to prevent it. 11,950. What refuse do the chemical works pass into the river ?—The chemical works formerly passed a dreadful amount of refuse into the river; all their ashes used to be poured into the river. 11,951. Do they do so now —No, we have pre- vented them from doing it. 11,952. How did you prevent them —The nuisance became so extreme that we applied to the Court of Queen's Bench for an injunction to restrain them from throwing any solid matter into the river. A writ was taken out in January 1863, and an injunction was obtained in the month following. 11,953. Since then have they not cast any of that matter into the river ?—They have not cast in any solid matter to my knowledge; indeed they imme- diately adopted a new plan for their refuse ; they got a long boat on purpose to take it away. That boat is filled three or four times a week, and sent down the canal to a place which they have taken of the Lanca- shire and Yorkshire Railway Company, under the viaduct which passes to Halifax. 11,954. What do they do with the refuse there 2– They got leave or rented ground belonging to the company under those arches, nearest the canal, and they unloaded the boat and poured the refuse down there. But the effect of that is injurious ; that refuse is so corrosive that I have heard that it is actually destroying the stone and eating away the piers of the viaduct. 11,955. So that it is the removal of the mischief from your neighbourhood to the railway company – Yes. 11,956. The railway company will be pretty sure to look after that matter 2–I should think so. 11,957-8. What water power have you at your two mills of which you spoke as having been reduced by the filling up of the river ?—I do not know precisely the water power which we had, but you may conceive the difference by the reduction of the depth of the dam head from five feet down to two feet. Our tenant Mr. Fielding is in the room, and he perhaps may be able to furnish the exact water power. (Mr. Fielding.) The two wheels are 30-horse power; one is 20-horse and the other 10-horse. I became the lessee of those two mills in 1854; at that time our mill dam, I was told, would would take three hours in drawing off; we can now draw it off in 20 minutes very easily. The bed of the river is so dammed up with refuse from the neighbourhood above that we have no reservoir at all, but just simply the bed of the l’IWel’. 11,959. That affects the question of the river acting as a reservoir for your works, but it does not neces- sarily diminish your horse power —Yes, it does very much so, because we are dependent for our horse power upon the river being cleaned. So much refuse and sludge comes down the river that we are more frequently in back water than we can run. 11,960. The river below is filled up as well as the reservoirs above —I fancy that almost every manu- facturer sends stuff into this river. 11,961. (To Mr. Cronhelm.) Have you observed that the banks of the Calder are more flooded than they were formerly, in consequence of this rising of the bed 2–I cannot speak precisely to that point. I should conceive it to be a natural consequence of the bed of the river being filled up that the floods would increase. 11,962. You have mentioned that you put your ashes upon the land adjoining the river and raise it by degrees, or you make land of it ; do you find that that land is better or worse than the land upon which you do not put your refuse –We have not yet begun to grow any crop upon the elevated part of the holme. We put some soil on the top of the ashes; as we extend the heap of ashes we dig away the soil and put that soil on to them. I should therefore conceive that it would be of the same nature as the field below. 11,963. I believe that you have paid a good deal of attention to the streams in the parish of Halifax *— I have. 11,964. And you have written upon the subject?— I can scarcely be said to have written upon the subject. I once wrote for a bazaar a little tract on the rivers and streams of Halifax, supposing a pedestrian to enter the parish from the west end and to walk up the Calder, and then to walk up the other streams, it was merely a little sixpenny pamphlet. 11,965. In what year was that ?—I should think that it was about 10 years ago, I do not precisely recollect. 3 A 17159.-2, HALIFAX, Mr. F. W. Cromhelm. 17 Nov. 1866. 370 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALFAx. Mr. F. W. Cromhelm. 17 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. Fielding. 11,966. Could you then give a more flattering des- cription of the rivers as to their purity than you can now give —I should think so. If you will allow me I will send to my bookseller and get a copy of that pamphlet which I will put in to the Commission. 11,967. Have you taken any steps to diminish the nuisance to the neighbourhood from the smoke emitted from chimnies 2–We send out no smoke ; we burn all our smoke by Jukes's furnace. It used to be a patent, but the patent has now expired and it is open. 11,968. Do you find it effective —Very effective. 11,969. And simple in management?—Very simple; but it requires some little attention on the part of the stoker. Whatever improvements are made in furnaces much depends upon the stoker, the man who puts in the coal. The stokers have it in their power by throwing on too much coal at once to diminish the efficiency of the plan. The nature of the application of the coal in Jukes's furnace is this: there is a flat iron table at the mouth of the furnace, and there is a door which descends, which would close it entirely : that door is a little elevated so that the coal which goes in is perhaps at an elevation of 2 inches. Jukes's principle is that of a revolving grate; the revolving grate takes the coal at the mouth of the furnace, and spreads it over the whole. 11,970. Do you find that you economise fuel by using that process 2–Undoubtedly. 11,971. Have you made any experiments to prove that 2–Yes ; there are calculations as to the amount of coal which would be used on the common furnace plan and on our plan. The least saving is, I think, one-fourth ; it perhaps may come nearer one-third, but as to one-fourth I feel positive. 11,972. And that without producing any smoke 2– Without producing any smoke. 19,973. Did you hear Mr. Child mention just now that he had been obliged to remove Jukes's furnace —At his own works at Copley, but he uses Jukes's furnace at his great mill in Bowling Dyke. 19,974. Do you think that he uses it with as much success as you do?—I believe that it is satisfactory. 19,975. To what do you attribute the obligation to give up the apparatus in the case mentioned by Mr. Child P-Mr. Child himself mentioned that there was a great deal of trouble in keeping things properly in order. For instance, the bars in the case of the revolving grate, which are perhaps about 10 inches, if they are not kept in regular motion they are apt to consume very fast, and to become very expensive; but with care and attention to the regular motions of the revolving grate, which may be regulated by a crank from the engine, we can make it revolve either quicker or slower. Unless due care is taken in that respect, for instance, if the bars are allowed to remain standing a considerable time when charged with burn- ing coal they may be destroyed prematurely, and thus become more costly, 11,976. But with ordinary care you find that the whole apparatus works very satisfactorily –Yes. Our engineer has told me that the bars of the revol- ving grates will last five, six, or even seven years. 11,977. (Chairman.) What weight of ashes do you get from your coal —About eight per cent. of the weight of the coal is turned into ash. 11,978. And that has to be got rid off-Yes, that is carried to the holme to elevate its level. 11,979. As you have described 2–Yes. 11,980. What refuse matter do you throw into the Calder —Nothing but dye water. 11,981. That is the coloured water after it has been used for dyeing 2–Yes. As to the means of obviating that, they would be very difficult indeed. There are only two plans of doing so, one of which would be too expensive. That would be for all the dyers on the different streams to unite and to construct a culver to take the water to the sea, about 100 miles off. The cost would be about 100,000/. 11,982. That would be a remedy, but it would be worse than the disease, because you would be taking the water from the river, and all persons using that water would object to that process?–Yes, there would be of course a diminution of that water. I listened with very great interest to the examination of Mr. Ingham, by whose evidence it appears that the purification of dye water is very unavailing; that it may look as bright and pure as the water from a spring, and may yet contain the objectionable ingredients. 11,983. It may contain acids and other chemical in- gredients –Yes. 11,984. That is the case with regard to sewage when it has been once passed into water. We have no means of separating the chemical ingredients but by spreading it over land to facilitate vegetable growth. Merely passing it through a sand filter would not re- move them, but by passing it over land where there is a productive growth of Italian rye grass, the natural action appears to seize the salts of the sewage, and to assimilate them, and then the water combines with the alumina and clay, and other ingredients in the earth, and goes away comparatively pure water. So that by agricultural means you can really purify sewage until it becomes as wholesome as pure water. Taking Croydon, the sewage is day by day passed on to areas of land, and on one side you can see it passing in, dark and full of excrementitious matter, and on the other side of that land going off as bright as spring water, and a chemist can detect very little difference between it and the water of the river into which it flows, and which is soft drinking water, and trout have come there. But it is not every place that you can get land so favourably situated or of sufficient quantity ?–It is a very inter- esting subject. 11,985. Is there anything which you wish to add to your evidence –I believe that I have answered all the questions which are on my sheet. Had there been any others I would have given answers to them. The witness withdrew. Mr. JAMES FIELDING (Sowerby Bridge) examined. 11,986. (Chairman.) Where are your works situated ?–At Mereclough Mills, Sowerby Bridge. 11,987. Upon what stream 2–The Calder. 11,988. What number of hands do you employ?— Perhaps 50. 11,989. What business do you carry on 2–I am a dyewood grinder and dealer. I occupy the mills spoken to by Mr. Cronhelm. I have two water mills on the Noreland and the Skircoat side of the Calder. I also live on the banks of the Calder. 11,990. Do you use water power for your purposes? —Yes. 11,991. And steam power as well ?–Yes, we have about 30-horse steam-engines with water power. 11,992. What weight of coal do you burn?—That is uncertain, because we use the steam-engines as sup- plementary to the water power. 11,993. Is the water power sufficient when there is water in the river?—It has been sufficient, especially in the last six months, when we have had a great deal of water. We burn all the wood which we extract (we also extract dye woods); perhaps we consume six tons a week, burning them under Jukes's furnace, it is therefore almost impossible to say what coal we consume per annum. 11,994. What form of refuse is produced in your manufacture ?–Ashes and wood, generally chip and rasp wood. 11,995. About what weight of that wood do you think you have per annum?—About 300tons per annum. 11,996. What do you do with it?—We consume it all under the furnace. 11,997. With the ashes 2–Yes. 11,998. You have refuse ashes from the coal?— Yes, and we have a very small soot in the flues of the boilers which we clean out every month ; we have to convey the soot upon our land, we mix it with our manure. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 371. 11,999. Do you pass any of your solid refuse into the stream 2–Nothing whatever. 12,000. Do you use water for any purposes con- nected with your business?–Yes, in making our dyewoods. 12,001. Where does that water generally come from ?–From the river. 12,002. Have you any water from the Halifax corporation?—None whatever at present. 12,003. Where do you get your water for boiler purposes?–From the river. 12,004. Do you condense 2–Yes, we have a con- densing steam-engine. 12,005. And you condense with the water of the river ?—Yes, and then turn the water back again. 12,006. Are you near the canal which the last wit- ness spoke off-Yes, very near it. 12,007. Do you use the canal water at all?–On that side of the canal there is the Skircoat Mill where we use water power exclusively, and therefore we have no communication with our steam-engines. 12,008. How long do you remember the river and the canal 2–I have lived there since 1854. 12,009. In what condition are the river and the canal as compared with what they were when you first knew them 2–I was aware that the river was continually filling up with the rubbish put in by people above, and therefore I engaged with others to form an associ- ation to prevent people putting ashes and rubbish into the river Calder. We kept the association on for about two years, but it fell through because we had not strength to resist, not only the local board of health but the gasworks, and all the people above ; they poured everything into the stream and thereby diminished our water power. 12,010. Do they continue to do so now 2–They do so partially now. I have seen the local board of health wheel the road scrapings right into the river. I have known them allow rubbish of all sorts to be put into this river; it is well known that our local boards of health are generally interested in filling up this great sewer, in fact the river Calder has now become now the great common sewer of the district. 12,011. In what state is the canal?—The Calder and Hebble Navigation is generally a black stream be- cause there are many dyeworks upon it. The last witness told you that he poured his dye water into the canal, and so do the persons next to him ; it goes in as black as ink, the water is generally very filthy. 12,012. Is it offensive in dry weather ?—I have been told so; I live on the banks of the Calder, and we are very much annoyed with what is continually coming down this river. In fact so late as last Sunday there must have been something from the gasworks, because every room in my house was filled with a most horrible stench, and very frequently the men working in my mill have been obliged to come out for fresh air, they have been almost suffocated with the stench from the gas water. 12,013. If there had been a river conservancy to whom you could have appealed, I presume that you would have set them in motion very rapidly against these offenders ?—I should be very glad if it could be done, because nothing else but that can compel manu- facturers to keep out their refuse, nothing else than the strong arm of the law. We tried it for two or three years, but we broke down for want of strength. We won one trial, and lost a second, and could not carry the matter on any longer, and broke down; in fact no man likes to injure his neighbour; a man dares not come forward and sign an affidavit that his neighbour does this, that, and the other, because it is so difficult to compel him to desist. People have promised that they will desist, but they do not, and in my opinion nothing but the strong arm of the law will suffice. 12,014. As the law now stands, in order to interfere with these proceedings, it requires that one neighbour should indict and prosecute another –It does. 12,015. Do you think it advisable that some new regulations should be established by which an inde- pendent body should take charge of these proceedings and so prevent that unneighbourly act?—I am quite sure that that is the only mode which can be adopted to prevent this river having all sorts of pollution thrown into it, that has been my opinion for years. 12,016. Then you think that persons who pour their solid refuse into a river should be prevented from doing so —Yes. 12,017. And you think that pouring gas refuse into the river should be prevented 2–Yes. 12,018. And if any persons in your trade sent in solid refuse you would say that the law should prevent them from doing so *-Yes. 12,019. You find that you can and do carry on your trade without sending in any solid refuse ?—Yes; even as regards our privies we have generally ashpits, and the soil goes on to the land. 12,020. You have been impeded in your operations by the filling up of the bed of the river ?—Very much so indeed. 12,021. Supposing that you wished to restore your mills to their original power, have you any idea what it would cost you to carry down the bed of the river to its original level ?—All the hollows or pot holes are choked up so that we are compelled to clean them out; we do that every summer. Some of the contents we take where we can and some we let pass down to our next neighbour. 12,022. Then you would come under the lash of the law, if the law were put in force so far as regards that —Certainly. We should be very glad to join in any scheme which could be adopted for carrying that refuse down to the sea. 12,023. Or for keeping it out of the river altogether —Yes. The dyers, so far as I have heard, all say that they cannot keep out their dirty water, but I think that they ought to be compelled to do so as far as possible. 12,024. (Mr. Harrison.) As an extractor of dye- wood, could you suggest any means by which refuse might be kept out 2–1 was surprised to hear the evidence of Mr. John Ingham, of Bradford, where he said that 600 tons of chips entered the river. Why not burn them 2–We burn all our logwood chips and all our fustic chips, and all our American bark which we extract. 12,025. They all admitted that they could burn the chips, but the difficulty was with the rasped wood – I think that they ought to be taken away and burned. No doubt that rasped wood after they have got the colour out of it is very injurious to the river, because it will fill up and make a large bed. 12,026. (Chairman.) I suppose that a filter would strain out the solids of the rasped wood 2–It would. Some people set fire to it, putting it upon a heap and burning it. It is not at all impossible to keep it out of the river, they might as well burn it as not. I apprehend that many gentlemen will say that they do burn it. 12,027. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you state what weight of dyewoods is used for the purpose of dyeing 2–No. This is a large district for its consumption. I myself grind from 60 to 100 tons a week, and that is all con- sumed in the neighbourhood ; that is chip and rasped woods. 12,028. If you valued the injury done to your two mills by the filling up of the river, what should you put it at 2–We should have to deepen the river. I conceive that the last day or two has shown the people the folly of putting in so much rubbish, because thereby the river is made so much shallower, and when a flood comes it destroys all your property. 12,029. Do you know from your own experience that that has been the effect of the filling up of the bed of the river ?–Yes. Yesterday I was up in the valley of Todmorden. I came down by the railway there, and I was astonished to see such havoc. The turnpike road and the river and the canal were all level with the water; they were impassable for miles, and I have no doubt the damage will be very serious indeed. 12,030. Do you know Todmorden 2–Yes. They are in the habit there of building their privies over the river, and all the refuse comes down this river, and the river has been choked up there many times. They HALIFAX, Mr. J.Fielding. -- 17 Nov. 1866. - 3 A 2 372 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. Mr. J. Fielding. 17 Nov. 1866. Mr.T. Hastings. - deserve all they get, because they have sinned with their eyes open ; they have kept building, and throw- ing in, and throwing in, and they have told us as an association in 1864 that they had done so and would O SO. 12,031. Then you cannot help looking upon the devastation with a little satisfaction ?—The last witness and myself waited upon them, and we waited upon all the millowners, and tried to persuade them not to do so, but to think of their neighbours, and of those people who suffered below, but they said that it was a right which they had, and a right which they would maintain, and therefore we gave our attempt up ; our association fell to the ground. The witness withdrew. Mr. THoMAS HASTINGS (Stainland) examined. 12,032. (Chairman.) What business do you carry on 2–I am a paper maker and cloth miller. 12,033. Where are your works situated 2 – In Stainland. 12,034. Upon what stream —Upon the Blackburn, and a small stream running through Stainland, the name of which I do not know. I have always called it the Stainland Beck. 12,035. Are they two separate works?—Yes. 12,036. Are they both of the same character?—No, one is for paper and the other is for milling cloth. 12,037. In the paper works what number of hands do you employ —From 40 to 50. I2,038. What tonnage of paper do you make per annum ?—About 200 tons a year here. We have large works in Leeds where we make a great deal more. 12,039. Do you know what volume of water you use for that purpose –I should think that we use about 7,000 gallons a day, that is for the paper mills. 12,040. Out of what do you make your paper — Linen and hemp. 12,041. Is it a fine quality of paper?—No, it is paper for pressing cloth. 12,042. Do you use any Esparto grass? — Very little. 12,043. Do you make your pulp upon your own premises —Yes. 12,044. You do not purchase pulp from any other place —No. - 12,045. What becomes of your waste refuse in washing and cleansing 2–It goes down the river. 12,046. Have you privies or ashpits?–Privies. 12,047. Where does the refuse from the privies go —On to land. 12,048. You do not pass it into the stream 2–No. 12,049. Are there any works situated above you ?— Yes. 12,050. What are they?—There are both worsted and cotton and woollen works. 12,051. Do they dye *—Yes. 12,052. And do they taint the water as it comes down to you ?–Yes. 12,053. Do any of them pass in ashes or other solid refuse?—Not to any great extent. I have known it done, but I do not think that it is done so as to be objectionable. If they wanted to get rid of an extra cartload of stuff which was in the way it might find its way into the stream, but I do not think that it is regularly done. 12,054. Do you use water power –Yes. 12,055. Is it at all impeded by the casting in of solids 2—No, I cannot say that it is ; it probably costs me a few pounds extra in cleaning out my dam. 12,056. Below your mill-tail has the bed of the river at all been filled up with refuse ?—It was a few years ago, but I took the tail goit a little lower down, and I have not had any inconvenience since. 12,057. What weight of lime do you use in bleach- ing —Perhaps about 5 tons a year. - 12,058. And what quantity of sulphuric acid – I cannot say. We do not bleach much, but we use lime for boiling. 12,059. Do you filter the water at all?–No, we used formerly to run it on to a piece of holme land which we had. 12,060. After it left you?—Yes. 12,061. That was for irrigation ?—Yes. 12,062. With what effect did you do so?—It pro- duced a luxurious crop, but the grass was coarse. The difficulty with refuse from a paper mill is that a very considerable quantity of the fine fibre of the rag goes away with the water, and if it is not very carefully watched it has a tendency to destroy vegetation rather than encourage it. 12,063. Have you heard of a recent filtering process by a Mr. Needham, for taking out that refuse from the water?—No, I have not seen or heard of any- thing of the kind. 12,064. There is a patent press at work by which you could recover every atom of that material; you could recover the finest possible fibre in the shape of pulp, and at a cost which would pay you handsomely 2 —It would still have the dirt along with it. 12,065. That press is for the pulp which comes from the machine?—My mill here is a hand mill, and we do not allow much of that material to go. I know that there are saveals for that purpose, which can be used, but we do not allow much material to go. It would not much affect my water; it is worked over again. When you are washing rags, before you can get them clean a certain amount of fibre always goes with the dirt, and if you got it you would only have the dirt over again and it would be of no use to you. 12,066. But if it was of no commercial use yet you could extract it —I have not seen any machine which would do it, on account of the great quantity of water which it must go through. 12,067. This same machine is used by the potters in Staffordshire and other places to extract their clay; they pump the water with the clay in solution into one of these machines, and they can solidify the clay at a cost of about 2s. 6d. a ton. There can be nothing in your refuse which would be half so difficult to separate as a solution of clay. Do you know what is the proportion of water which is required in your manufacture ?—I do not ; it depends very much upon the kind of paper and the extent of washing. Some kinds of paper, the coarser kinds, require a very small quantity of water; but if you require to bleach the ma- terial, or to wash it thoroughly for bleaching purposes, you must have double or treble the quantity of water. 12,068. Do you know the large paper works which belonged to Mr. Crompton —I do not know the works, but I know the name. 12,069. The proportion usually taken is 1,000 lbs. of water to 1 lb. of paper ?–Yes. I may be wrong in the quantity of water which I have given as that which we use because I was not prepared for these questions. 12,070. Have you made yourself acquainted with what Parliament has done with respect to paper making on the Thames —No. I have seen that there is an injunction against McMurray of Rickmansworth on a tributary of the Thames. 12,071. Is that very recent —Yes. 12,072. Have you seen the Thames Conservancy Act passed in the last session 2–1 heard of it. 12,073. There is an Act of Parliament in which definite restrictions are to be put upon paper making on the river Thames?—I will get it. 12,074. What is the other manufacture which you carry on ?–Fulling cloth. 12,075. Where is that manufactory situated 3–The two establishments are near together. 12,076. How many hands do you employ there — Only a few. 12,077. Have you any refuse of any sort —Yes, there is a good deal of dirty water from the scouring of the cloth. 12,078. Does that pass down the stream 2–Yes. I made two filters in a coarse way, to see whether I could not pass the water through clear to the stream, but they very soon got choked. Then I RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 373 mixed a small quantity of lime with the water as it ran away from the machine, and I found that it de- posited much quicker with the lime than without it : but still I found a very great difficulty in making the water at all pure, besides it created a great nuisance on the premises. I have plenty of room, but a foot path goes past my works, and I was afraid of being indicted for a nuisance. 12,079. So that you pass that refuse away now as you did before ?—I do. I partly run it on land, but we cannot run it on land all the year round. 12,080. Why not *—Because we cannot do it during the hay season. 12,081. If you tried a small portion of land with Italian rye grass you would find that you could grow Italian rye grass all the year round; you could irrigate all the year round, and you could cut grass all the year round, excepting when the surface was covered with frost and snow, and then you might put the refuse upon the surface; if it froze it would be all right; if it saturated the snow it would be all right, and when a thaw came it would not be a nuisance. At Croydon they always irrigate —I pre- sume that they cut their grass and use it green. 12,082. They do, and it is most beneficial when used for milch cows; it produces the largest amount of milk and the best butter. Have you any further observation to make 2–I have this to say. The stream above me, the one coming down from Stainland has become very foul indeed, and the smell is quite a nuisance. I complained to the manufacturers above me, and they agreed to send the dirty water past me. This has not been carried out, but I have no doubt that it will be, unless there is some regulation about passing dirty water into the Calder. My impression of the way to get rid of this difficulty is the same as Mr. Cronhelm's, namely, that you must send a dirty stream and a clean one side by side, and I think that the quantity of dirty water which would require to be passed down a dirty stream is not nearly so great as the general impression represents it to be. It is only for two or three months in summer that the stream would feel the withdrawal, and I presume that there is more water coming down from these com- pensation reservoirs in the Halifax district than ever came down the Hebble in a dry time before those reservoirs were made. 12,082a. Then you think that the true solution would be to make intercepting drains, and to take the water away ?—I do. The witness withdrew. Mr. John CrossLEY (Halifax) examined. 12,083. (Chairman.) In what business are you en- aged —I am a dyer. 12,084. Where are your works situated —At Bailey Hall upon the Hebble. 12,085. What number of hands do you employ — From 150 to 200. 12,086. What weight of material do you use in the shape of solids?–Of dyewoods, such as logwood, fustic, and peachwood, we use about 200 to 300 tons in a year. 12,087. What weight of sulphuric acid and lime and other bleaching material do you use?—We use about 5 tons of soda ash, 10 tons of soda, 20 tons of ammonia, and about 30 tons of acids in a year. 12,088. Have you steam power —Yes. 12,089. What horse power have you?—Our steam- engine is called 12-horse power. 12,090. What weight of coal do you use per annum? —We use nearly 20 tons of coal per day. 12,091. Do you know the weight of the ashes — We generally take away about 3 tons of ashes per day. 12,092. What do you do with them —We lead them to the railway station principally. 12,093. You do not pass any into the stream — None at all. 12,094. What volume of water do you use per day? —We pump from the wells about 150,000 gallons, we have two wells on our premises. 12,095. To what depth are they sunk —The one is 10 yards and the other 20. 12,096. Do they vary at any time of the year – They do not vary very much. 12,097. What is the quality of the water 2–It is hard. 12,098. Then is it injurious for your purposes?— No: it does very well indeed for dyeing and cleansing purposes, but we use a little of the corporation water for scouring, it saves soap. 12,099. How much of the corporation water do you use º-About 8,000 gallons a day. 12,100. At what price?—I forget now ; I think that it is about 8d. at present. 12,101. What weight of soap and oil per annum do you use?—Perhaps about 4 tons of oil per annum, and about the same quantity of soap. 12,102. Do you attempt to extract any of it from your waste water, after you have performed your washing operation ?–We do not extract either oil or soap. 12,103. Then it passes away with your refuse water? —Yes. 12,104. Do you extract the solid parts of the dye- woods, after those dyewoods have been used?—No, except that there are some articles, such as sumach and divi-divi, and that sort of article, which are used in cotton for the warp, and which we take and mix with the night-soil. Of the chip wood we do not use 1 cwt. in 12 months, and any chip wood which we do use we burn. 12,105. Have you waterclosets or privies 2–Privies. 12,106. What becomes of the refuse 2–We take it on to land and mix it with vegetable refuse. 12,107. You do not let it go into the stream 2–No. 12,108. (Mr. Harrison.) What weight of wool do you use?—We do not dye wool as wool, but we dye piece goods. We dye perhaps 4,000 or 5,000 pieces a week when we are busy; at present we are not dyeing so many as that. They vary from 5 lbs. to 20 lbs. each. The average weight, I should think, would be about 10 lbs. Some of these goods are mixed cotton warps and wefts, and the others are all wool. 12,109. (Chairman.) Are there many works similar to yours situated above you ?–Yes, a great many. 12,110. In what condition is the water of the Hebble as it comes down to you?—It is very bad. 12,111. Is it worse than it was when you first knew it —When I first knew it it was as clear as spring Water. 12,112. Would it be a benefit to you if it could be rendered clearer than it is now f-Without doubt. 12,113. Should you then be able to use it for your washing purposes –If it was clear we could use it for both dyeing and washing. 12,114. Can you use it now for either of those purposes?—We occasionally can use it for dark colours. Yesterday we were obliged to stand. We generally use it for condensing purposes, and for steam power, but so many ashes and things of that kind conte down that they very frequently stop the pump. 12,115. Then some persons do throw ashes in above you?—There is no doubt that ashes do get in some- where above me. 12,116. And you find them out in your pump — Yes. 12,117. Do you think that it would be proper to prevent persons who use the streams from pouring in ashes 2–1 think so. We used to have a society which professed to look after the matter, and to fine every one who put ashes in, but I do not think that much has been done lately in that respect, at the same time the stream is better now than it was before the Ogden reservoir was formed. - 12,118. I suppose that many of the large manufac- turers do keep their ashes out of the stream – be- lieve that they do their best to keep the stream as clear as possible. 12,119. And perhaps to a greater extent than they did 10 years ago?—Certainly, Since I º you - - - - A - - * } {\ . HALIFAX. -- Mr.T. Hastings. 17 Nov. 1866. Mr.J.Crossley. RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. Mr. J. Crossley. 17 Nov. 1866. W. H. Rawson, Esq., J.P. -- could go up and see ashes on both sides of the river, and as soon as a fresh came they were taken away; we did so ourselves in Wheatley. The roads in Wheatley at that time were positively full with ashes. The sur- veyor used to come to our works and say “ I want a small quantity of ashes,” and we put them there, but if heavy rains came they were washed down the roads and we knew that they must go down the stream. 12,120. (Mr. Harrison.) Did you hear what Colonel Akroyd said yesterday about purifying the dyewater —No. 12,121. He said that he had tried experiments, and that the addition of lime would throw down the colour- ing matter which was in suspension, and the water would pass off in a comparatively pure state, and that that machinery only occupied a small space —It would be possible, I think, to do it at small works, but not at such works as ours and Kirks. 12,122. If it could be shown that it could be done in a small space, would it be a benefit to you, and to all dyers, to carry it out 2–I think not ; some years ago we tried to precipitate iron and other matters in the water with lime, and the action was so irregular that it was very difficult to get the colour which we wanted; sometimes when we wanted a purple we got a red. Although the water is clear to the eye, yet it contains acids, and alkalies, which are a great detriment to us when we come to use it. 12,123. Any system of that sort would not assist you for dyeing purposes?—Not so far as I see. 12,124. Would it be useful for cleansing purposes? —It might for cleansing some things, though if one portion of the water contained acid and another alkali it would vary the shades of colour, The witness withdrew. WILLIAM HENRY RAwson, Esq., J.P. (Halifax), examined. 12,125. (Chairman.) In what business are you engaged 2–We are manufacturers and merchants. 12,126. Manufacturers of what?—Woollen cloths. 12,127. Where are your works situated P-At Mill House on the Ryburn Brook; we have other works in Ovenden. 12,128. What number of men do you employ 2– Perhaps 700 or 800 men and women taking the two works together, but I cannot recollect the numberexactly. 12,129. Do you use water largely –We use a good deal of water. 12,130. Where do you obtain it from ?–We have large springs of our own from the hill side, the water from which is collected in reservoirs of our own, and we also have the Ryburn Brook. 12,131. Then you use the brook water –Yes. 12,132. Do you use steam or water power —Both steam and water power. 12,133. What horse power and what water power have you ?–To the best of my recollection we have about 60-horse steam power, but it varies a good deal, being in conjunction with the water power ; I am not able to give a definite answer to that question, because my object is merely to give evidence upon the smoke nuisance; I came unprepared with other details. The amount of our water power depends upon the amount of water in the river at the time. 12,134. Have you found your water power at all impeded or interfered with by solid refuse coming down the stream from above you ?–Not particularly, except that Mr. Morris, our neighbour above, annoyed us a little with solid refuse, but I think that he has remedied that now. 12,135. What extent of engine power do you use —About 60-horse power altogether. 12,136. What weight of coal do you burn per annum ?—About 3,000 tons, if I recollect rightly; we burn about 45 tons a week at Mill-house works. 12,137. What becomes of your ashes –We generally use them or they go upon the roads; we never turn a single ash into the river except there happens to be a heavy flood and then a few go over ; we have a great extent of roads, and the surveyors take the ashes away to repair the roads. 12,138, You do not systematically tip ashes into the stream 2–Never. 12,139. Do you think that any manufacturers in Yorkshire do so 2–1 am afraid that they do ; but I do not wish to speak evil of my neighbours. 12,140. Do you believe in the possibility of smoke prevention ?—There is no doubt of it. 12,141. Have you had experience in preventing it * —We have prevented it for the last 10 or 11 years. 12,142. Do other manufacturers prevent it —I am sorry to say that they do not generally, but they are beginning to do so to some extent. 12,143. If they are left to their own devices do you think that so good a practice will be followed 2–It is difficult to say, 12,144. Would you make it compulsory that they should prevent smoke?—I should. 12,145. What means have you taken to prevent smoke?—We have Jukes's furnaces exclusively. 12,146. How long have you had them 2–We began to work with them 11 years ago, and for several years we have had nothing else. 12,147. Do you know what was the cost of applying that process to your boilers ?—We made a good many improvements of our own, and I should think that the whole cost to us has probably been about 120l. a boiler. I should say that it could be done cheaper now. I think that it could be done for about 100l. a boiler over and above the cost of an ordinary furnace, and adopting every improvement. 12,148. Of what size would those boilers be 2– About 30-horse power. 12,149. Would they be 6 feet in diameter —I think that ours are 7 feet in diameter. 12,150. Of what length are they –28 feet. 12,151. What does the patent consist of 2.-Jukes's patent has expired. 12,152. What does the arrangement consist of 2– We have ourselves made a great many improvements. 12,153. Can you describe briefly what the arrange- ment is 2–It consists of revolving grate bars, and the coals are carried gradually forward. The fire is fed by a hopper. The coals are fed about every 40 minutes by the fireman upon this hopper, and are gradually moved forwards on the fire, so that no smoke is made. The coal is ignited the instant that it approaches the fire; it is ignited by a brick arch above. 12,154. The material is roasted out of the coal, and turned into a flame immediately 2–Yes; no smoke is made. 12,155. Can you maintain your steam power as efficiently by that process as by the ordinary mode of firing 2–Undoubtedly. 12,156. If any person told you that it was impossible to carry on his trade without making smoke what should you say —I should simply say, “I am sorry that you are so ignorant.” We have done it ourselves for 11 years, and I think that I can speak with some practical knowledge upon the subject. 12,157. When you began it did you believe that you could do it?—No, nobody was more bigoted than I was in the first instance, 10 or 11 years ago; I did not believe that it could be done. 12,158. You were determined to try –Yes, for these reasons: that I have very extensive gardens and conservatories round me, and I was so thoroughly beaten by the smoke nuisance upon my own premises that I was determined to carry out this process for my own benefit. 12,159. Then your interest lay in the consumption or prevention of your own smoke, and your intelligence forced you on 2–I saw that it could be done, common sense showed me that it really could be done. 12,160. Your belief lay in that direction ?—Un- doubtedly; I believed that it could be done, but I was at first afraid that it would be done at a very great expense. I was afraid that expense would be a stumbling block. RIVERS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 375 12,161. Do you find the apparatus all injurious to your boilers ?–Not in the slightest degree. 12,162. Do you find it more expensive than if you fired in the ordinary way ?—It is a great deal less expensive. 12,163. Does it save you in weight of coal?–In our own case it saves at least 20 per cent. of coal, and there I think that I am under the mark. I think that I might venture to say 25 per cent, but I will say 20 per cent. 12,164. Then if 100,000 tons of coal are carelessly consumed in Halifax, producing this intense amount of black smoke, 20,000 tons might be saved and no smoke made 2–Undoubtedly : I will give you the results of it in our own experience at Mill House. We formerly always had five large boilers in work, and since we have adopted Jukes's patent, we have done away with one of those boilers, and have sold it ; before we always had four boilers in operation and one standing, since the application of Jukes's patent we have never had more than four boilers, namely, three in operation and one standing, and I should think that we have been making 20 per cent. more steam with those three boilers than we did with the four before. 12,165. We will cease to talk about Jukes's patent because patents frighten people and we will call it Jukes's apparatus as modified by your arrangement. You have no hesitation in saying that where coals have to be used, and power has to be obtained, you may consume the coals and produce the power without generating dense smoke 2–Undoubtedly; I am only speaking of our own case, we make no smoke. 12,166. The law must sweep away what people say is impossible in that respect –I am afraid that that is what the law will have to do ; certain remarks were stated at the Bradford Town Council to have emanated from yourself. It was said there by some one or other that you had stated publicly that the burning of smoke entirely depended upon the stoker ; that there was no system which had come out, and that you did not know of any system which would come out, which would effectually burn smoke without the result depending upon the stoker; and that you would undertake to work any mill in Bradford without any dense smoke. That you might do, but I could not allow these remarks of yours to go unchallenged before the public, because it is more than likely that many persons would be very glad to shelter themselves, and would say, “There is Mr. “Rawlinson, the Government Commissioner, who says “so and so.” I wrote to the “Leeds Mercury,” and I quoted these remarks, and I said, “Will Mr. Rawlinson “ himself admit that he actually stated such facts * * It is very desirable that the public should know whether that is so or not, and I cannot allow those statements to remain unchallenged. 12,167. I will admit it in this way, that with regard to Jukes's patent we have had evidence that persons have tried it and have pronounced it to be a failure, and have abolished it because they have said that it did not serve the purpose which was intended. I said that patents might be put in use, and might be so managed as not to accomplish the purpose, but that in every case (and I say it advisedly now) it might be done by careful firing. I believe that your boilers might be worked as economically and with as little smoke by careful firing as by your arrangement. I know establishments which have been carried on for years, simply by an arrange- ment with the fireman that he should not generate smoke, but should be paid extra for not producing smoke, and he has accomplished the purpose. There is no witchcraft in the arrangement, for Jukes's patent is simply putting the coal near the front of the fire near to the door, near to the dead plate, and drawing it evenly and continuously towards the bridge, and always firing upon the front ?–Just so. 12,168. If Iowned steam boilers my workmen should all do the same by hand –If you will excuse my saying so, if the matter is to be entirely dependent upon the stoker himself, it will never be done, but in Jukes's system you have a self-acting apparatus which does it independently of the stoker, and it cannot go wrong. - 12,169. (Mr. Harrison.) In Jukes's process you get rid of the opening of the door?—Yes, the front of your boiler is in a measure hermetically sealed, and the stoker seldom has to look at his fires from morning to night. In the last trial which we made, he never touched his fires for 48 hours, during which time we made an experiment as to the amount of water evaporated. 12,170. (Chairman.) An arrangement was put into operation when I was a boy ; there was then a revolving disc like a great coffee mill in front of the boiler, the small coal was scattered in front and there was a self regulating arrangement acting from morning to night. As soon as the steam had risen to a certain height, a strap was thrown off a fixed pulley on to a loose pulley and the matter regulated itself. What has become of that process I do not know –In Jukes's patent no air is admitted in front, and no door has to be opened, there is no cold air to throw down the steam, the fire gets no air excepting underneath and through the bars. 12,171. If there is to be a government regulation with regard to the prevention of smoke, do you not think that it would be more advisable simply to say that smoke shall be prevented, and to say nothing about the means?–Decidedly. 12,172. Because there may be other means ?–Cer- tainly ; I only speak from our own experience. I say that it can be done, and is done, and ought to be done; I should say, let people take their own course. 12,173. They will then have no excuse?–Just so : in the first place you will have no smoke, you will also make a saving of at least 20 per cent. in fuel, and where you have a large number of boilers I believe that you will make an enormous saving in stokers’ wages. If you have 20 boilers half the number of men under Jukes's system will work those boilers, as compared with the Cornish system of boilers, and it will be with one-fourth of the labour to themselves. 12,174. I am extremely glad to hear this evidence from you, and I at once accept it as proving a fact which has been put to the test of experience and has been corroborated by others, and which therefore shows that those persons who have put in operation, as they say, Jukes's patent, and have paid their money, and then have abandoned the process, have either allowed their firemen to deceive them, or have been so careless that they have paid no attention to them —That is the case. 12,175. I think that if you have seen the tenor of my remarks you will perceive that this is what I said? —Those remarks were made three or four months ago, some of the members of the council stated what you had said, and I said, “Whether or not Mr. Rawlinson “ stated so, it is desirable that the public should know “ whether he did state it or not.” 12,176. I state now what I have stated before, that smoke consuming is in some respect a matter of faith. I never yet knew any establishment where steam power was used where smoke consuming could be established if the head of the firm did not believe in it. Only show me an individual and let him tell me, “It is of “ no use your talking to me, I have tried to consume “ smoke, and I do not believe in it, and know that it “ cannot be done,” and I am quite aware that it will not be done in that firm; but I go to another estab- lishment (and this I have learned above 20 years since) the head of that firm acquaints himself with the condi- tions necessary to smoke burning ; he establishes his own faith from conviction, and he says, “I know that “ it can be done, and it shall be done,” and then it is done?—It was done by me in the same way, but in many cases failure arises from the stupidity and ignorance of the stoker. I was determined, 11 years ago, to be the master. We had a very stupid old engineer who had been with us 20 years; a very clever intelligent man was at the other end, and the stupid fellow said, “What “ do you know about this? I have known about this “ before you were born ;” and he threw every obstacle in the way. I went to him and said, “I am to be the “master and not you, and on this day fortnight you “leave, and the stoker under you.” I was sorry to be compelled to do it. That is 11 years ago, and that man is with me now, and his stoker also, and he would give his head rather than go back to the ºsystem. 3. A 4 HALIFAX. W. H. Rawson, Esq., J.P. 17 Nov. 1866. 376 OF EVIDENCE. RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES HALIFAX. W. H. Rawson, Esq., J.P. 17 Nov. 1866. - Mr. D. Clay. -- 12,177. That quite agrees with what I have said. I have said that when there is the intelligence to insist upon good and careful firing, you may fire an ordinary boiler and not generate anything more than what is called parliamentary smoke, but you must pay for it, insist upon it, and have it done –You would require double the number of boilers to do it. In Jukes's system there is the advantage that you have a continu- ous furnace all day long, always generating steam; but if you do it as you propose, you must double the num- ber of boilers and fire very lightly. 12,178. That I refute —I am afraid from my own experience that you will find it so. I have not a doubt about it. 12,179. The law is not always clear; some Acts of Parliament have said in their clauses that persons shall provide themselves with apparatus capable of preventing smoke. The law makers thought that by that arrangement smoke was to be prevented. What has been the effect 2 Persons have been summoned for a smoking chimney, and they have pointed to this clause in the Act of Parliament, and have brought forward their witnesses to prove that they have had the apparatus, but that the stoker was careless, and the magistrates did not convict —But I think that the law will have to say by and bye that you shall do it. 12,180. And to let the fine be cumulative 2–Yes; it is the interest of the parties to prevent smoke on account of the enormous saving to them. 12,181. (Mr. Harrison.) What weight of coal do you use per annum ?–At this mill 45 tons a week has been our average, and I will engage to say that it would take in many places 90 tons to do the work which we do. 12,182. That is 2,340 tons per annum ?—Yes. 12,183. What do you give for that coal per ton — I suppose that it is now about 8s. 6d. a ton, but the price has been advancing so much that it is almost impossible to say. 12,184. That would be about 1,000l. a year, and that is divided among four boilers ?—Four boilers, but only three always in work. 12,185. That would be 333/. a year for each boiler —Yes. 12,186. And you say that you save a quarter of the coal; therefore, you save one-fourth of this amount – Yes. 12,187. That would be upwards of 80ſ, a year which you save?—Yes, as compared with what we formerly burnt before we applied this process. 12,188. That is 80ſ. per annum saving upon each boiler, whereas the apparatus you say only costs 100l. to put up 2–It would, I suppose, be about 100l. now in excess of the ordinary furnace. 12,189. Therefore, the saving in about a year and a quarter would pay for the expense of putting up the apparatus?—Undoubtedly, and in our own case we have no trouble whatever ; this goes on from year to year; we have no outlay for damage. I can show Mr. Rawlinson a boiler which has been going on for about four years, and has not had a penny expended upon it. 12,190. (Chairman.) But if you had not been gifted with a little faith, and a good deal of obstinacy, you would have been beaten ?—Yes, but I was not to be beaten, and I think that I have been the means of introducing a good number of these furnaces into this district since. There is another point to which I should like to call your attention, and that has refe- rence to the ashes which are made. I happened to read the evidence of many of the Bradford manufac- turers the other day, and I see that by their statements they make nearly 1/4th of ashes. By Jukes's pro- cess in our boilers we scarcely make 1/20th of ashes. I may say that we do not make more than 13 cwt. of ashes for a ton of coal by using Jukes's process. That shows you at once the enormous saving in the coal ; the coal gets so thoroughly burnt that nothing is left. In the last trial which we made, about 6 tons of coal made I think 6 cwt. of ashes. 12,191. Have you tried anything with your domestic fires to economise coal and to save smoke * —Nothing whatever, as coal is so cheap in our part of the world. 12,192. Let me tell you how you may save half your coal, and produce no smoke, and have a far better fire —I can easily believe it. I do not think that any plan will ever answer which is merely dependent upon the intelligence of the stoker. It must be self-acting so that he cannot go wrong. I am now speaking of boilers. 12,193. Is there anything further which you wish to add 2–No; but I shall be delighted if I can show you these boilers worked as they ought to be worked. (Mr. Fielding.) I also have two of Jukes's fur- naces, and I have just replenished with new grate bars one boiler which has been at work 12 years. I should wish to say that once replenishing will make them last for that time. 12,194. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you produce a saving of coal 2–Yes. 12,195. (Chairman.) Have you had the same arrangement with your firemen —Yes. (Mr. Rawson.) There was a great objection to this external firing. You asked me whether we had had any injury with the boilers. We have only one boiler on our premises which we consider a bad boiler. We always get the best Low Moor boilers, which we consider the cheapest in the end. We have one boiler which we contracted for 10 or 12 years ago—a Lancashire boiler—which we considered a bad boiler, and we had a good many repairs to make to it. That condemned boiler has been going 10 years with Jukes's apparatus, and is as good now as it was then. Unfortunately, in the present day, the workpeople set their faces against anything which will do the work more quickly. The witness withdrew. Mr. DANIEL CLAY (Sowerby Bridge) examined. 12,196. (Chairman.) You are a woollen manu- facturer 2–Yes, 12,197. Where are your works situated 2– At Sowerby Bridge on the banks of the river Calder. 12,198. What number of men do you employ — About 300 hands men, women, and children. 12,199. What weight of coal do you consume 2– About 50 tons per week. 12,200. What weight of ash do you make 2–We have never made that calculation, and I cannot tell you that. 12,201. What do you do with your ashes –We take them over the river, and lay them up until they are wanted to be taken up for mending roads. 12,202. Do you throw any of them into the river ? —No. 12,203. Have you any smoke-preventing apparatus 2 —No. 12,204. Have you heard the evidence which Mr. Rawson has given 2–Yes. 12,205. Do you believe it —I cannot doubt his word, but other persons experience difficulty; for instance, Mr. Ackroyd and Messrs. Crossley. I have heard a good deal about it, and I think that the difficulties may be overcome if there is a determination in the matter. 12,206. You will have to stand up to your fireman and make him acquiesce –Yes. I believe that it can be done with an intelligent fireman. 12,207. Do you use much water 2—A good deal. 12,208. Where do you get it from ?—From some springs which we have in the yard, and others on the hill side. We have been so troubled with the river water, having had so many goods spoilt with it, that we were obliged to be at an expense of nearly 1,000l. to get pure water. We have this pure water for some- thing like six months in the year, but during the remainder of the time we are obliged to take the river water, which is very bad in summer time. It is generally dirtier in summer than in winter. 12,209. How long have your works been situated where they are 2–100 years. 12,210. You used the river water on your premises at the first 2–Yes, at one time we did so. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 377 12,211. And it has gradually been growing so much worse that now you cannot use it —We cannot use it. 12,212. It has spoiled your goods —Yes, to a great extent. 12,213. And it has done you serious damage – Yes. We make white goods, and we have been sadly plagued with tar on the pieces. 12,214. Has the state of the water prevented you making those white goods —No, because we have got another supply of clean water, but it has done us a great injury. 12,215. Is your water hard or soft —Soft. 12,216. Do you dye at all?—Yes, a little. 12,217. What materials do you use in dyeing –The same as other dyers—indigo, and logwood, and other dves. *21s. Do you know what amount of solid refuse you make —No, it is not a large amount. 12,219. Does it pass into the river ?—Yes. 12,220. You have not attempted to intercept it — We have not. 12,221. Do you use much soap 2–We use a pretty fair quantity of soap, but I cannot state how much. 12,222. Do you intercept the soapsuds, and get any of the soap back —We sell them to Messrs. Teall, Le Paige, and Company, of Wakefield. 12,223. How much do they pay you?—About 150l. a year. 12,224. Do you know what weight or value of soap you use —No. 12,225. But it must be a large quantity?—Yes. 12,226. Do you know what weight of wool you use ? —I daresay that we use about 100 packs of wool every week. We are worsted spinners as well. 12,227. What accommodation have you for your workpeople * Have you privies or waterclosets — Privies. 12,228. Where does the refuse go 2–We have carts made for the purpose, and we cart it away on to land. 12,229. You do not put it into the river ?–No. 12,230, Are there any works situated upon the river below you ?—Yes. 12,231. A great many —Yes. 12,232. You receive the pollution which comes down from above 2–Yes. 12,233. And it annoys you in the river ?–Yes. It has more particularly done so latterly. Our next neighbours above have just built a dye-house above us, and since they have built that dye-house the river water has been a great deal worse, in summer time particularly. 12,234. How far is their dye-house above you?— About a mile. The witness Mr. RICHARD BRACKEN 12,249. (Mr. Harrison.) You are a paper manu- facturer, I believe, on the Luddenden Valley –Yes. 12,250. Have you works near the junction of that brook with the Calder - At a distance of about a mile and three-quarters. 12,251. Are there any manufactories situated above you?—There are some spinning mills above us. 12,252. But no dyeworks —No. 12,253. Or any manufactories of any kind which pollute the water 2–No. 12,254. Then you get the water to your works in a tolerably clear state?—Yes. Latterly we have had the water a little muddy in consequence of the carrying out of the waterworks. 12,255. That is only a temporary inconvenience?— Yes. 12,256. Do you use the water of the Luddenden Brook for paper making 2–Yes; a good portion of our water comes from the brook, and we have some spring Water which we economise and use when the other is dirty. 12,257. What character of paper do you make — Brown paper. We make a little half-white paper. We do not make any white paper. We call it a brown mill. 17159.-2, 12,235. Then it would be a costly thing for them to send their dye water past your premises in a sewer or outfall —They may pass it down in that way, but I do not know whether it would do for their purpose. 12,236. Do you use any of the dirty water for your steam purposes?—We use it for condensing purposes for the steam-engine. 12,237. Do you feed your boilers with it?—Yes. 12,238. We have had it in evidence that that dirty dye water is better in some instances for feeding the boiler than a bright spring water –Our river is not so bad as it is at Halifax, it is cleaner. 12,239. What is generally the character of the refuse which comes from your works. You say that you dispose of the ashes and that you dispose of the soil from the people, and that the soap refuse is disposed of 3–There is nothing but the dye-house water which is sent into the river. 12,240. Do you think that it would be difficult to retain the solids in the dye-house refuse before the cold water goes into the river?—I think that it would not be so very difficult. I have known it done. Our pre- decessors, I believe, did it. The refuse is run into a tank for the purpose of having it as manure for the land. 12,241. Then you would not be very much punished if you were told that you must not let the solids go in 2–I think not, looking at what we make. 12,242. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you think that any- thing could be done in the way of purifying the dye water itself?—I do not see that it could. I could not say, after hearing the evidence, that it could be done. 12,243. What weight of solid dyewoods do you use in the course of a year –We do not use very much dyewood. We use a good deal of indigo. We use very little of the wood. 12,244. Is the refuse diluted with water which is impregnated with indigo -No ; we do not turn the dye water into the tank. It is only from the cloth mill. 12,245. Do you think that you could precipitate the indigo from the dye water by any means ?–No, I do not see how it could be separated. 12,246. If any simple means could be recommended for separating the colouring matter from the dye refuse water at a slight expense, without taking up much room, should you object to it?—No, I should very much like it to be done. 12,247. If all persons were obliged to do it do you think that you, as a dyer, would be benefited?—Yes, decidedly. 12,248. So that, although it might be an expense to you, you might get an advantage –Yes; we should be compensated by having clean water. withdrew. (Luddenden) examined. 12,258. Do you use any quantity of bleaching materials 2–A little. 12,259. What is the refuse which you throw into the brook –We do not throw in any refuse, except the dirty water which we have used for washing. 12,260. Do you add any alkali 2–We use lime to boil with. 12,261. You boil the rags with lime and wash them —Yes. 12,262. And all that wash water passes down into the brook 2–It does. 12,263. Containing dirty lime water and some of the materials, I suppose, of the rags —The fine portion of the fibre which is washed away. 12,264. What do you do with the solid lime?—The solid lime which does not go into the rags we take on to the land. 12,265. What other materials in the shape of chemicals do you use besides lime?--We use a little bleach and sulphuric acid. 12,266. Do you pass the bleach into the water after you have used it —We do not wash out the bleach. We use chloride. 12,267. And of course it would be to your disadvantage if you let the chloride of lime pass away 3 B HALIFAX. - Mr. D. Clay. 17 Nov. 1866. Mr. R. Bracken. 378 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. - Mr. R. Bracken. 17 Nov. 1866. Mr. W. Morris. before you had got all the goodness out of it 2–I do not know whether it would be economy or otherwise, but it is convenient to do so. 12,268. Do you use water power?—Yes, and Steam. 12,269. What amount of power in each case?—I should think about 50-horse steam power and 40-horse water power. The water varies. 12,270. And you use steam to make up the deficiency –Yes. 12,271. What weight of paper do you manufacture in the course of a year 2–Between 600 and 700 tons. 12,272. Do you know what volume of water you use for cleansing that paper?—I have no idea. 12,273. What weight of coal do you use. That again depends upon the water supply 2–Yes, about 1,700 tons. 12,274. Do you use any means for consuming the smoke –None beyond careful firing. 12,275. Is that effectual —Not very much so. 12,276. Ithink that after the lesson which you were taught by Mr. Rawson just now you will probably be looking about to establish some system of smoke pre- vention —I am afraid that I have not Mr. Rawson's determination. 12,277. Do you use any Esparto grass?—No. 12,278. You use rags of rough quality, I presume; not white rags 2–Just so. 12,279. What weight of lime do you use 2–We use about 100 tons of lime in a year. 12,280. And how much bleaching material 2–The quantity is very small. The bleach, I think, would not be more than three or four tons, and the sulphuric acid about the same. 12,281. What do you do with the ashes which you make —We have had a good deal of trouble in disposing of them. We have buried them lately. 12,282. You do not turn them into the brook?— We have not done so for very many years. We did not throw a shovelful in yesterday, although we were very much tempted to do so. 12,283. Does the Luddenden Valley extend for some distance above you ?—Yes. 12,284. Has it a considerable fall –Considerable. 12,285. The quality of the water, I suppose, is much the same as that of the Hebble 2–I should say so. 12,286. Is it open to any manufacturer in that valley to obtain a site, and to commence dyeing and other works –Yes, I should say that it is. 12,287. Should a dyer locate himself above you and pollute the water how would it affect you ?–It would affect me injuriously. 12,288. It would oblige you to find another source of water supply, or, I presume, to leave your premises? —The water is frequently fouled, and we have pro- vided for ourselves a tolerable supply of water for washing purposes. We have constructed two reservoirs, one of about 19,000 feet and the other of about 12,000 feet. 12,289. So that you are comparatively independent 2 —Yes. 12,290. But you might be injuriously affected 2– We might be injuriously affected. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM MoRRIs (Sowerby Bridge) examined. 12,291. (Mr. Harrison.) I believe you are a manu- facturer at Sowerby Bridge 2–No; at a place a mile and a quarter from Sowerby Bridge, called Triangle. 12,292. You are also one of the Vice-Presidents of the Chamber of Commerce for the Halifax district 2–Yes. 12,293. Are your works situated within the parish of Halifax –Yes; immediately above those of Mr. Rawson, who has given evidence. 12,294. Not within the borough, but within the area supplied by the corporation with water –No ; it is beyond that. 12,295. What trade do you carry on ?—Worsted spinning. 12,296. How many hands do you employ —About 400. 12,297. Do you use water power or steam power 2 —Both water and steam power combined. 12,298. Is the water obtained from the corporation ? —No ; from the Ryburn, which is a tributary of the Calder. - 12,299. What horse power or what steam power do you use?—Combined, about 50-horse; the water power is variable. 12,300. When you have a good supply of water, what is it —The maximum is about 14-horse; the average power does not exceed 8-horse. We always use steam power. 12,301. Are there other mills above you on that stream P-Yes, several. 12,302. Do you find any inconvenience from their passing solid matters into the river so as to affect your water power —I do, but only occasionally. I ex- perienced a loss some few years ago, in conse- quence of the flood bringing down a great deal of débris against the shuttles, which, when drawn, went into the goit. As I attempted to turn, as usual, with- out being aware of the obstruction, the main gearing broke down, and I was put to a cost of 50l. 12,303. Had you no remedy against anyone above you ?–That I do not say ; it was a friend and neigh- bour. 12,304. Do you think it is desirable to have all solid matter kept out —Most undoubtedly. 12,305. What weight of coal do you use ?—About 1200 tons per annum. 12,306. Do you carry out any system of smoke con- suming –No, no more than giving instructions to the fireman to do all that he can, and by the admission of air to supply as much oxygen as he can without cooling the furnaces. 12,307. Did you hear Mr. Rawson's evidence?—No, but it is a question that has so often been discussed between us that I am quite aware of all that he could Say. #290s. Is it the fact that his chimney is free from smoke at Mill House 2–I should think it is. 12,309. As far as smoke consumption goes, his sys- tem appears to be perfectly successful ?—Yes. 12,310. Do you agree that if he can effect a saving of from 20 to 25 per cent, on the coal, it is desirable to carry out the same system 2–Yes; but that is only a partial view of the question. I have never heard it confirmed by anyone that the saving of coal is any- thing equal to that. I live next to Mr. Rawson, and I am as anxious as he is for the suppression of smoke. My daily comfort is involved in it, and I am always inquiring upon the subject, and I can suc- cinctly state the result of my inquiries. 12,311. Will you be kind enough to do so?—It will be necessarily very short. The prevention of smoke is highly desirable. It can be accomplished in a great degree in ordinary furnaces by the provision of more boiler room than is absolutely required for the eco- nomical raising of steam, if that extra boiler room is combined with judicious firing ; or it can be accom- plished by mechanical means, say by Jukes's patent, but only at a greater cost of repairs and stoppages. But even this system, to be worked advantageously, necessitates more boiler space to prevent combustion being forced. Under these conditions, I believe a diminished consumption of coal would be the result ; and although all legislative restrictions upon trade are liable to result in evil, and ought to be avoided as much as possible, yet I think the public comfort may demand the compulsory limitation of smoke. The law, to be just, however, must be of universal appli- cation where practicable. 12,312. Did you hear Mr. Rawson say that he should be able to do away with one boiler altogether in con- sequence of adopting Jukes's system —It is pain- - --- -------- RIVERS COMMISSION:--MIXTUTES OF EVIDENCE. 379 ful to give evidence in opposition to Mr. Rawson, because I know it is a darling subject with him; but I feel the great importance of this inquiry, upon which legislation may be based, and therefore all neighbourly feeling must sink, for if you go away from here with opinions expressed in an important town like Halifax, and legislation is based on those opinions, if they are erroneous, we should do a great wrong to you and the public. Messrs. Whitworth, of this town, who are enterprising and bold men, sparing no expense, but always with a view to frugal manage- ment, have put down, I believe, four boilers with Jukes's furnaces, and I have asked Mr. Whitworth three or four times, and he stated in answer to my last inquiry this week, that more boiler room is required for Jukes's furnaces, for they cannot otherwise get up the steam. The great evil of Jukes's furnaces is this; there is no doubt that they prevent smoke, but the boilers are liable to be burned away, and also the furnaces, even with the protection that one of Mr. Rawson's men has patented, are liable to be injured, and frequent stoppages may occur as the result. A gentleman, who shall be nameless, lately put a boiler up under circumstances to give it every opportunity of being worked out without regard to expense. Still he gives it as his opinion, that where there was only one boiler, it would be dangerous for them to rely on Jukes's invention; the stoppages being so frequent, and the flame so intense at the mouth of the furnace, there is a calcareous deposit on the boiler to which it is always liable, and they are liable to be burned out. I should say that stoppages are multiplied greatly from the use of Jukes's furnace as compared with ordinary boilers. Still I think if you could place all the country under one universal law, so that one manu- facturer should have no great advantage over another, all might be obliged to provide sufficient boiler room. Jukes's invention would then be found to be very use- ful, accompanied with a saving of coal; but you must have a larger firing space; for instance, to refer to the Chairman's opinion as expressed during the inquiry at Bradford, he stated that he would undertake to fire without causing any smoke, and that the usual plan was to choke up the front of the fire; but the proper plan ought to be to push forward the incandescent coal, and to place the fresh live coal in front. The consequence of that would be, that you would cover a large part of the furnace, through which the air would not pass sufficiently for perfect combustion, and the upper surface would become caked by the action of the fire. You would then find it impossible to raise the amount of steam that the works would require. 12,313. (Chairman.) You are attempting to describe the effect of the mode of dealing with the fire which I recommended ?–I am. 12,314. Then I can confidently state that it is as erroneous a description as could possibly be given. If a thing has once been done, do you believe it can be repeated?—Under similar circumstances I believe it could. I have anticipated that by saying that with a larger than ordinary surface of furnace it could be done, but if you want to increase your steam you could not do so. There is a tendency in all of us to go on increasing our business and to put on as much power as the engines or boilers can do, and if you start with an abundant supply of boiler room you will find yourself in a few years with a larger weight of work on the engine, in which case steam can only be raised by making the boilers do all they can. I still dissent from the opinion that you can raise the same amount of steam with firing as you propose in comparison with the plan I am speaking of. 12,315. It has been said that the State should not interfere with trades because trade will do what is necessary, and therefore it would not be a proper thing to say to manufacturers, Carry on your business as you like, but you shall not throw out dense volumes of smoke –I think that it is quite competent for them to do so without governmental interference. 12,316. You would let the manufacturers do it in whatever manner they please ?–Yes, - 12,317. The State should not dictate the mode, but simply say, We believe that your trade can be carried on without black smoke, whether with more boiler space or with less we do not say, or whether with a saving of fuel or otherwise. Carry on your trade in the best manner that you can but you shall not pollute the atmosphere of the district with black smoke 2–I think the public may claim that at the hands of the Legis- lature. 12,318. The rivers are filled with abomination in the way of sullage and fluid. Is it not the duty of the Government therefore to say, It has been proved to us that the manufactures of the country can be carried on without pouring into rivers solids, such as ashes and effete matter of human excrements, solid refuse from dyeing processes, such as spent woods, either chipped or rasped, and other solids. You as riparian owners for the future use any other means you like, but you shall not make the rivers of the country your scavengers ?–In a manufacturing district the first purpose of streams is to aid manufacturing industry, and they may reasonably receive all liquid or soluble refuse from works connected there with, for it is not often that it is injurious to health. Solid matter ought, however, rarely to be thrown in. Streams may also serve, in the absence of other provision, for the drain- age of excremental and other refuse, if liquid or soluble, from dwelling houses, but when from the numbers of the population the healthfulness of the atmosphere is injured, then it ought to be compulsory to have sub- siding reservoirs or tanks combined with a system of deodorizing, and, if practicable, from local conditions, of utilizing the sewage. - 12,319. If you can prohibit the discharge of effete refuse from a town surely you can do so in the case of one individual or one house. You say that certain solids may go in, but cannot you see your way to the prohibition of solids of all kinds –Yes, very nearly. Without being too doctrinal and positive I think that all solids might be prohibited, but the reason why I draw a distinction between a unit and numbers is this, that where you have a number you can go to the expense of collecting and diverting the sewage, which you could not do in individual cases. In Triangle there is no other mode for any refuse, liquid or soluble, passing away from that village except by its natural drainage down to the river. 12,320. If you beg the question so far as that the legislature might as well put down its hands and say nothing could be done –How am I begging the question ? 12,321. You say that the village is in such a posi- tion as that the effete matter from it cannot be pre- vented from going into the river. There is an inven- tion which has been recently introduced called the dry earth closet, and by that pollution of the river might be prevented. At Wakefield they are putting the invention to the severest test; they are using these earth closets in the cells of the prison. Therefore it might be said to the owners of property in your village, or to the residents there, you shall not pass your effete sewage matter into the river, you may use earth closets, it will be a much cleaner and sweeter system for you, and you will have the advantage of retaining the refuse. If you have a garden you may use it there; if not, it can be taken away and deposited elsewhere so as not to be offensive —That system might do for small cottages, but I cannot conceive it possible that in the ordinary dwellings of this country such a process could be conducted daily and weekly. 12,322. You can conceive that if a dwelling house has its drain connected with the nearest watercourse or river, and there are persons below inconvenienced by that drain, you would have a right to say to the person occupying that dwelling, You shall not inflict any in- convenience upon the persons below you, and at what- ever cost or labour to yourselves you shall resort to some other method, either a common privy or an earth closet 2—A common privy would be a remedy worse than the disease; miasma would always arise from it. HALIFAX. - Mr. W. Morris. 17 Nov. 1866. 3 B 2 380 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. - Mr. W. Morris. 17 Nov. 1866. T. Shaw, Esq. 12,323. But by the use of an earth closet the diffi- culty could be got over with a little additional manual labour?—My waterclosets drain down into my dam, and therefore I do no harm, but still I coincide with you to this extent, I say that towns with a large popula- tion might be subjected to compulsory regulations, such regulations to be put in force by inspectors appointed by corporations or boards of healths, but with a power for a given number of inhabitants, say 12, in case of any neglect on the part of an inspector, to enforce the application of the laws by appeal to a county or governmental authority. We are not at issue on these main points, and I agree with you generally. It is not only excrementitious matter but all the nasty filthy stuff which cottages have that ought to be kept out of the river. You are aware that by the Common Turnpike Road Acts, at every 20 yards or some other given space, there must be openings made for drainage from a common high road, showing that the law contem- plates there must be some passage to that main arterial drainage. The whole thing is bound up in one great system : you cannot ask a cottager to have a large reservoir in which to collect the water, his refuse must follow the natural course of drainage. I think it is highly desirable that where the atmosphere is likely to be polluted, some great system should be adopted. Above us at Ripponden if they are building a cottage they cart on to the bridge the soil they remove from the foundations and they pour it into the river, and so it comes into my dam. 12,324. Do you not think that that should be pre- vented 2–Undoubtedly. 12,325. Supposing that you took proceedings against them now what would be the result 2—There would be very great difficulty in getting evidence as to the fact, and much expense also. 12,326. Have you formed any opinion, if any legislative enactment is to be passed, what form the conservancy of the river areas of the country should take —No, not beyond what I have previously expressed. 12,327. (Mr. Harrison.) Did you read over the evidence that was given by Mr. Ripley at Bradford * —Yes. 12,328. You are a Vice-President of the Chamber of Commerce in this district 2–Yes. 12,329. Did you observe the figures which he gave as to the weight of wool manufactured in this neigh- bourhood —Yes, I did ; I know also the parties who assisted in preparing those figures, and I have the fullest confidence in their intelligence and integrity. 12,330. Do you believe that we can depend upon them as being as accurate returns as any that can be made 2–Yes. The witness withdrew. THOMAS SHAw, Esq., (Halifax) examined. 12,331. (Chairman.) You are Mayor of the borough 2–Yes. 12,332. What business do you carry on ?—The worsted and woollen trade. 12,333. Where is your mill situated –In Stainland on a branch of the Calder. 12,334. What number of hands do you employ — About 2,000. 12,335. What weight of wool do you deal with per annum ?—We use about 350 packs per week. 12,336. What volume of water do you use 2–About 600,000 gallons a day for condensing, dyeing, and cleansing goods and wool washing; about 200,000 gallons for condensing, 50,000 gallons for dyeing purposes, which become very dirty, and about 250,000 gallons for cleansing the goods after being dyed, but that does not become very dirty, and 100,000 gallons for wool washing with soap. 12,337. What weight of soap do you use per annum ?—About 700 packs a year. 12,338. About what quantity of oil —I cannot State. 12,339. Do you use any chemical ingredients, such as acids?—Yes, for dyeing. 12,340. Do you use sulphuric acid –Yes, we use about 140 tons of acid liquor per year. 12,341. For dyeing purposes —Yes. 12,342. Do you use any lime?—Very little. 12,343. Any dyewoods?—Yes, but not many, generally rasped logwoods. 12,344. What weight of them do you use?—In dye wares altogether we use about 200 tons per annum, of indigo about 50 chests. 12,345. What weight of coal do you use in a year? —About 6,000 tons. 12,346. Do you know what amount of ashes they produce?—About 10 per cent. 12,347. Are you a smoke maker or a smoke pre- venter 3–Our engineer professes to be a smoke preventer; we do consume it. 12,348. Do you use Jukes's patent?—Yes. 12,349. Like Mr. Rawson 2–Yes. 12,350. Can you state how long you have used this means of preventing smoke –We have not got Jukes's patent throughout the establishment ; our man has a patent, or professes to have, but he does prevent the Smoke by some arrangement of his own. 12,351. Does it save fuel in your case ?—I cannot say that it does, but it prevents the smoke, and that is what is required. 12,352. What do you do with the ashes?—We have many bye roads that we have to repair, and we put the ashes on them. 12,353. Do any of the ashes go into the river ?— None. 12,354. Do you use any water from the river ?— Yes. 12,355. For what purpose –For general purposes. We get water from wells and springs, on our own premises, as well as ſcom the brook. 12,356. Do you get any from the corporation water- works —No. 12,357. Do you know what quantity, you obtain from the wells?—About 100,000 gallons a day; we have a bore-hole of about 600 feet deep. 12,358. How near does the water surface?—Within perhaps five yards. 12,359. Does it vary during the year —No, we do not find that it varies. 12,360. Do you throw any waste refuse matter into any brook or stream –We throw in what rasped wood we use. 12,361. That goes in with the waste dye water 2– Yes. 12,362. Do you do anything with the soapsuds – No ; we did so, but we have been building over where we had a convenience for that purpose, and we are making further convenience to extract the grease. 12,363. At the present time the grease goes into the river ?—Yes. 12,334. The rasped wood goes into the river?— Yes; the chipped wood we burn. 12,365. (Mr. Harrison.) Could not the rasped wood be prevented from going into the river ?— Perhaps it might. 12,366. What privy accommodation have you on your premises —They are all privies; we have them in coaches, and we take the sewage on to the land after they are filled. 12,367. You do not pollute the river with it —No. 12,368. Is the stream worse now than it was when you first knew it?—Yes. 12,369. Are there any mills above you ?—Yes. 12,370. Do any of them send their ashes down the stream 2–No. 12,371. Have you any water power 2–No, we had, but it is done away with. 12,372. Is the bed of the stream rising opposite to your works —No, I do not suppose that it is ; it is only a small rivulet, rise to the RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 381 12,373. Were you at all inconvenienced by the flood of last night —No. 12,374. Is there any agricultural land close to your fields 2—Yes. 12,375. Would it be convenient to put the dye refuse on to any portion of that surface to irrigate it? —I do not know ; we might do it, but I do not see that it would be any benefit to the land. 12,376. Why did you abandon the water power — Because we did not find it advantageous, it was only a small power, abount 16 or 18 horse, and we lost work by it ; we found that in using steam power we could produce far more weight of goods than what would compensate for the amount of coal. 12,377. Therefore you did not abandon the water power because there was any obstruction in the river, but because it was uncertain —Yes, we could not get the weight of material out by its use. 12,378. Does the river now contain as large a volume of water in dry weather as it used to do when you first knew it?—I do not suppose that it does. 12,379. How has it been reduced in volume 2—I think the land drainage runs the water out quicker. 12,380. Are there any reservoirs at the head of your stream —Only our own. 12,381. Have you a reservoir 2–Yes, two. 12,382. What area do they cover ?—I cannot say. 12,383. Where does the mud go to when you cleanse them 2–Down the river. 12,384. If any regulations were laid down as to the purification of the river, and a clause prohibited mud to be flushed into the river, you would have to find some other mode of getting rid of it 2–Yes. 12,385. Do you see any other mode of doing it 2– The mud comes from the bottom, and perhaps we should abstain from flushing it out if others did the Sabin C. 12,386. Proprietors of mills above you do the same as you do ; they flush their mud out and you suffer from it?—Yes. 12,387. Do you ever shut down your shuttles to prevent it coming in 2–Yes. 12,388. Then the people below you, if there are any, would have to put their shuttles down when you sent your mud out 2–Certainly. 12,389. Do you use Jukes's boilers?—Yes, one. 12,390. How long have you had it —Some two or three years. 12,391. Does it answer –I cannot say that it does; we have it in one of our separate mills; we have only one boiler connected with it, and we frequently have stoppages for a week in making repairs, in altering and repairing parts, more particularly the plates of the boiler, for if you are not very particular with the water that is supplied to the boiler, and any sediment gets to the bottom of the boiler, the powerful heat that Jukes's invention sends out burns out a plate, and then a new plate is required. 12,392. You are not quite so warm in favour of this invention as Mr. Rawson was 2—No, not at all; the only question is this, supposing that instead of one boiler there were six, they might answer, because there would be plenty of boiler room, but I do not agree with him in saying that they can do with fewer boilers. 12,393. Have you much difficulty with your boiler from the effect of the water —I do not suppose there is much. 12,394. Some of the water that is used in this neighbourhood we have heard causes no deposit, is it possible that Jukes's patent might be unsuccessful in one case where incrustation was liable to take place, The witness but might be successful in another where the water produced no incrustation ?—Certainly, but it is very difficult to get the kind of water which causes no incrustation. 12,395. (Chairman.) Some of the water from the dyeworks that has got grease and acids in it proves to be the best for boiler purposes, because it never forms any incrustation?—Yes, but the misfortune of Jukes's patent is that the fire is underneath the boiler ; if you have the fire-boxes near to the boilers you do away with any sediment. 12,396. Jukes's patent makes it necessary to have cylindrical boilers with the furnace underneath –Yes. 12,397. The process is not applied to an internal furnace —No, they cannot apply it, I believe. 12,398. Have any of your boilers internal furnaces? —Yes. 12,399. Are they Galloway's, with tubes passing through the flues 2–Yes, conical tubes. 12,400. There are two furnaces in one boiler, and by firing the two alternately you prevent smoke — Yes; we have the door perforated as well, and when they are fired the fireman shuts the perforated door, and lets a little atmospheric air in ; it passes in during the first flush. 12,401. And in that way smoke is prevented 2– Yes. 12,402. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you satisfied in the first place that smoke can be prevented 2–Yes. 12,403. Are you also satisfied that it can be pre- vented without the manufacturer sustaining any decided loss P-Of course it depends upon capital, be- cause supposing that a man could only afford to put down one boiler with a steam-engine, I should not advise the application of Jukes's patent to that ; if there were two boilers it would be all right. 12,404. (Chairman.) Can you use steam power and not produce a dense volume of smoke 2–Yes. 12,405. Either with one boiler, or with any number of boilers ?—Yes. 12,406. Do you think it would be injurious to any class of trade if the legislature made it imperative that all boilers should be so used as not to produce smoke * —No, I do not suppose it would ; as far as I can judge it would not. 12,407. Leaving the means of doing it to the indi- viduals, but saying, smoke shall not be sent up your chimneys —I think it can be done. 12,408. Do you think it possible for a person earn- ing 100l. a year, by carelessly working his chimney to destroy property worth many thousands a year by throwing out dense volumes of foul smoke into the atmosphere –Supposing that a man puts boilers down and pours out a dense volume of smoke from his chim- ney, and goes on uncontrolled, he may injure other people's goods to an extent far greater than I can pretend to say. 12,409. Supposing it could be proved that he could carry" on his business without making that smoke, should you think that he ought to be compelled to do so 2–1 should say so. 12,410. You think that the law ought to say, you shall not do it 2–Yes. - 12,411. (Mr. Harrison.) With regard to dye water, you heard, I believe, what Colonel Akroyd said yesterday about filtering; have you ever tried any experiment of that kind –No. 12,412. If he is correct in his views, do you think there would be any hardship in enforcing such a sys- tem as he spoke of, I mean a system of using lime as a precipitate in a compact filter?—If it could be done we should be glad to do it. withdrew. WILLIAM ALEXANDER, Esq., M.D., M.R.C.P., (Halifax), examined. 12,413. (Chairman.) I believe you have certain in- formation which you wish to lay before the Commis- sion?—Yes. 12,414. Have you formed any opinion as to the physical character of this district 2—I have. I am the author of a paper on the geology of the parish of Halifax, and that necessarily involved its physical character. 12,415. What is the character of its geology –As a mountainous region it is variously elevated from 400 HALIFAX. T. Shaw, Esq. 17 Nov. 1866. W. Alexander, Esq., M.D., M.R.C.P. 3 B 3 38.2 RIVERSI COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, HALIFAX. W. Alexander, Esq., M.D., M.R.C.P. 17 Nov. 1866, feet to 900 feet above the level of the sea; the inclina- tion of the plane varying from 1 to 4 inches in a yard, its general drainage is towards the Calder, and its de- clivity with an inclination to the west and south, from the summit of the moorland. The stratification of the district is that of the millstone grit, and this town, standing upon the middle member of that series, the upper soil is of a light peaty character, a non-retentive soil, which will hold but 25 pounds of water per so many cubic feet, whilst at Leeds and Sheffield the same area of soil would hold 60 pounds of water. 12,416. Would you not infer from that that you would have a dryer atmosphere here 2–Usually so : nevertheless it varies a good deal ; the mean annual temperature is 48° 5, with a rainfall of 240 days amounting to about 34 inches; the aqueous vapour averages one per cent, or about three grains of water in a cubic foot of atmosphere. - 12,417. How long have you known this district – I have known it all my life as a native, and for 25 years as physician to the public hospital. - 12,418. Have you made any estimate showing the progressive increase of population 2–I have but little to add to what has already been stated by the town clerk and the ex-mayor, but I may observe that this town doubles its population in about 28 years ; the parish takes 44 years in accomplishing the same purpose. - - - - 12,419. Have you collected any statistics as to the local mortality, or can you state anything as to the character of the local diseases 2–I have had upwards of 70,000 of the labouring poor under my charge, and therefore I have had ample opportunity for observing these particular points. I quite concur with the ex- mayor in much that he has stated. I could perhaps a little better than he describe the haunts of disease and the localities in which it is most frequent, and describe something of the districts bordering upon the lower levels, and the outfalls of the drainage as to which perhaps this Commission would wish for some infor- mation. The Public Health Act was granted upon my petition. 12,420. Are there certain parts of the town where the mortality is much larger than in others ?–Very much so; the greater the density of the population cacteris paribus the greater the amount of sickness and mortality. - - - - 12,421. Is that necessarily so *—I think it is necessarily so; the fouler the atmosphere the lower the standard of health of the population. 12,422. In what localities in Halifax should you say there was the greatest amount of disease ?—The Old Bank is one, and others which I trace on the map ; Charlestown is an unhealthy district. 12,423. What are the types of disease which prevail in those districts —These districts are chiefly occupied by the humbler and more destitute class of the popu- lation, and as such there is no doubt that their habits and want of cleanliness, and the want of suitable and properly cooked provisions expose them to disease; there are a variety of causes that will greatly modify the influence of such diseases and their results, and I estimate that for one death there will be usually about 10 attacks of illness. 12,424. Do they suffer from typhus fever and typhoid fever ? — Not generally. I may observe that with regard to typhus we have not above five per cent. of the gross mortality who die of that disease. The deaths from consumption are one in eight of the population, whilst old age carries off one in ten. 12,425. Is there occasionally typhus and typhoid fever among the poor 2–Yes, ; but less so than for- merly in Halifax. - 12,426. Do you know of your own knowledge the condition of the patients in Wakefield gaol 2–Not very well, although I know the officials there, the resident surgeons. 12,427. If typhus fever can be banished from the gaol at Wakefield, is it practicable in your opinion to banish typhus fever from the cottages of the poor 2– I have always thought it highly probable. 12,428. If you could give the poor more space for air and persuade them to have better ventilation, improve their moral habits, and make them more care. ful as to clothing and living, do you think they might get rid of typhus fever —Yes; epidemics would, by such means, be very materially modified, and rendered more harmless; when they did appear they would present a less grave type. 12,429. Is typhus fever a disease very fatal to adults –Yes; I think it is more so than to children. 12,430. Is it not more fatal to adults between the ages of 20 and 40?–Yes, it is not confined to them at all, but it is more fatal. It is not however our scourge, for pulmonary consumption and affections of the respiratory organs are the prevailing diseases here. 12,431. What do you think generates those diseases -Partly the climate; it is partly constitu- tional taint in the case of consumption. 12,432. And perhaps the nature of the occupation? —Yes, frequently. 12,433. From living in confined rooms?—Yes, and dusty departments; a fatal trade here is that of the stonemasons and quarry men. 12,434. In consequence of inhaling stone dust?— From inhaling stone dust and gritty particles which fly off from their chisels. 12,435. I believe they are not a very sober race 2– No, the quarry men are not ; the stonemasons are more temperate. 12,436. Have you made any chemical analysis of the water in the Hebble Brook 2–Yes, from time to time, when I had leisure to devote to the sanitary question upon which I gave some courses of lectures some years ago, I then made three or four chemical analyses of the water of the Hebble Brook. 12,437. Have you any of the analyses here 2– No. 12,438. Do you remember them 2–Yes; there are some in Mr. Ranger's report. I can tell you that the foreign bodies found in the water consist of sulphuretted hydrogen, sulphates, soda, pearl-ash, ammonia, traces of green copperas, a great deal of organic matter, and in summer time infusoria and insect life, such as are found in stagnant pools. In times of flush of course the quality of the water differs, and then you would require to take three or four samples, the chief part of which would still be impure. 12,439. Do you find that infusoria will generate in water although containing a certain amount of chemical matter –Yes, they can be detected by the microscope. 12,440. There is a considerable amount of lime and sulphuric acid, the products of dyeworks, and other ingredients passed into the stream, and yet you say that the infusoria generate and live in this water 2– Yes; they are found there. 12,441. The ova are generated there?—Yes, and then if you consider that this occurs in a stream con- stantly flowing there, there must be a large dilution. If 30 tons a day of minerals are thrown in from the dyeworks, there would be a large dilution before those acids reach the place from which I took the specimen. 12,442. Is there anything further that you wish to add to your evidence?—I know all the tributaries of the Calder, and every foot of ground as a native of the place; I knew them as a boy, and from traversing every one of the 20 townships which constitute our parish in the course of business, I have got to know almost every part of the district; and I may say that the health of the people generally along those tributaries is often un- dermined. A residence along a watercourse in my opinion is undesirable in almost any case, but it must be still more undesirable when those streams are filled with organic matter and excrementitious deposits; and although the exhalation does not actually kill the inhabitants on the confines of the streams, yet their health is undermined; they live, but they are not in vigorous and robust health, and they become easy victims when seized with a malignant disease, such as RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 383 epidemics among infants, and erysipelatous infections and blood diseases, especially the adult population. 12,443. (Chairman.) If the wealth of a country is embodied in the health and strength of the inhabitants of that country, any legislation which tends to preserve health, and to prolong life, would caeteris paribus add to the wealth of the country –Yes; it is a great relief to the rates and to the families whose heads would otherwise be called prematurely to their final rest. 12,444. Then if we legislated for purely selfish purposes, we should do the best possible thing by improving the health of the country, setting aside other and higher motives 2–Unquestionably. 12,445. As selfish men we should be doing the best possible thing if we did all that was possible to improve the health of the working classes and to preserve that health to the longest period 2–Decidedly SO. 12,446. You find that more settled strength repre- sents wealth, and that if you turn the country into barrenness by pollutions, such as are going on, property will revert to its original condition, when without inhabitants it had no value –Yes. 12,447. (Mr. Harrison.) I take it for granted that you look with satisfaction upon the corporation water- works, supplying the requisite quantity of water to the mills which are growing upon the hills of Halifax rather than in the valleys —I do. 12,448. Enabling the population to be more scattered, and the labouring classes to reside in a more healthful position ?—Yes. 12,449. Have you had any opportunity of analysing the Hebble water since Mr. Ranger's report, which is of some years standing 2—That was, I think, in 1851. I have occasionally tested the Hebble water with litmus and turmeric paper, but I have not gone through a chemical analysis. 12,450. Would the analysis in Mr. Ranger's report in 1848 represent the present Hebble water —Yes, with the condition that the water will differ according to the freshets and the floods. I recommended that beck to be tunnelled 20 years ago as the best thing which could be done, seeing that it was to be our main sewer. I recommended the tunnelling of it from Lee Bridge to Salter Hebble. It would then have been out of sight, and I thought that the reclaimed land would have paid the expense of the work. The stench along the banks of the Hebble from Salter Hebble to Clark bridge in a north wind is horrible. 12,451. The mayor and the town clerk have informed us that there are 960 waterclosets, but that there are a great number of ashpits and privies in the borough of Halifax. From your experience would you at all attribute the ill health of the poor to those ashpits, as well as to the cramped condition of the buildings?--In many instances the ashpit is too palpable. It is just at the entrance of their doors. The inmates are laid on their backs. This is one source which has certainly undermined health, if it does not produce a particular and special disease. 12,452. Then you think that ashpits, as well as cesspools, under and adjoining dwellings are sources of ill health –No doubt of it, in those crowded localities where exhalations come into the windows of houses and penetrate the doors. I am bound to say that Mr. Magson, the inspector of nuisances, is most exemplary in his duties, and I am not aware of any- thing like such bad exhalations as used to be the case in years gone by. 12,453. Notwithstanding that care and attention on the part of the corporation, do you still attribute ill health to the presence of these ashpits?—I do in part. 12,454. Would you recommend that waterclosets, or some other means, should be substituted for ashpits – Yes, where manageable, and good tubular drainage. But the 960 waterclosets referred to by the town clerk are principally in the houses of the better classes of occupiers whilst the poor people must join in a large pit which is constantly either overflowing or giving off exhalations and malarious gases. 12,455. When these ashpits have been placed at some distance from the residence, have you found them a source of ill health –In some cases the vapours get greatly diluted, and I do not know that in the case to which Colonel Sibthorp used to refer there is any formidable objection. I mean the case of a privy of the ordinary kind in a garden at a distance from the dwelling with ordinary and due care being taken as to the removal of the refuse. The witness withdrew. Mr. SAMUEL MAGsoN (Halifax) examined. 12,456. (Chairman.) You are the sanitary inspector of the borough of Halifax *—I am. 12,457. How long have you held the office P-About 15 years. 12,458. Have you any assistance in that office –I have now a foreman over the scavengers, and an assistant. 12,459. How many scavengers have you under your charge —Twenty-three. 12,460. How many ashpits have you to deal with in the borough —The whole of the ashpits are not under our care, but only that portion of them for which the parties think fit to come forward and pay, but there is a loss upon what they pay. 12,461. In cleansing those ashpits do you cause a nuisance in the way of smell?—Yes. 12,462. Do the people ever complain of that nuisance –They do. 12,463. Have you ever known fever cases in the houses bordering upon and near to those ashpits 2– Yes. I have known cases of fever, particularly in confined streets or courts. 12,464. Do you know any of the parish medical officers ?–Yes. 12,465. Do you know the relieving officer –I do. 12,466. Do you ever see him in those bad districts where those ashpits are the worst 2–I have some- times seen him going about visiting the people who receive relief in those districts. 12,467. If fever prevails in the town where does it generally prevail?—The upper portion of Halifax is more subject to it than the lower portion. 12,468. Has it always been so since you have known the town —It appears to be regularly so. 12,469. How do you account for that ? — For instance, we have a portion of the town called Mount Pleasant, and the system of drainage had not been thoroughly carried out there. That, I think, is one reason, and another reason is that Mount Pleasant stands high, and just catches the wind from the north- east, while the lower portions of the town seem to be protected from the east wind by Beacon Hill. From my observation those are the causes. In fact, in going through the death rate with the registrar one day we found that even death is more prevalent in the upper portion of the town than in the lower. 12,470. What are the deaths principally from ? Are they from fever, or from consumption, or from what ? —The registrar does not return the names of the disorders. - 12,471. Is any portion of the Hebble water used for irrigation ?—From the end of the river Hebble water is taken on to property belonging to Mr. Akroyd, the gentleman who gave evidence here. 12,472. And used for irrigation?—Yes. 12,473. For ordinary grassland 2–Yes. 12,474. Is the process productive 2–Yes, so the farmers have told me. 12,475. Have you had any report of its causing fever ?—I never heard of it until Mr. Akroyd men- tioned it in his evidence. 12,476. No person has complained to you about it? —It is out of my district. 12,477. You never heard of it until now 2–No. 12,478. What are the first works upon the stream * —Mr. Shaw Slater's works, where a liquor is extracted from wood. There is a goit, and they appear to throw the refuse down the goit. HALIFAX. W. Alexander, Esq., M.D., M.R.C.P. 17 Nov. 1866. Mr. S. Magson. 3 B 4 384 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HALIFAX. Mr. S. Magson. 17 Nov. 1866, 12,479. And the refuse passes down the stream 2– Yes, and it will get on to the land because they irrigate from the goit. 12,480. Are any privies and ashpits so situated that the refuse shall fall into the stream —Yes, many; they begin at Salter Hebble; there are two privies and an ashpit so constructed that the refuse slides down into the stream. 12,481. Have you any power to interfere with that as a nuisance –No; we have some similar ones in the borough ; we brought the matter before the committee, and the owners seem to have intimated their right to do as they please; they have done it for a long time, and they do the best they can by covering it with flag; but they always say, “You throw the refuse of your “ waterclosets into the stream, and we do no more.” 12,482. Do any parties whom you know pass their ashes into the stream 2–The cottagers do so all along the stream; some of the houses are so contiguous that they put up the sash, and throw the ashes out into the Water. 12,483. So far as you know do any manufacturers do so P-I do not know any who do it now, but I have been during the present week up and down the whole of the streams, and there are ashes which look very suspicious on the bank; they are placed very conve- niently for going into the stream. 12,484. Some of them might accidentally get in 3– I am inclined to think that they get in when we are in bed. I have been very minute in the examination ; they do it very cunningly and there are no traces of the ashes. 12,485. (Mr. Harrison.) Excepting in the bed of the river ?—Exactly. 12,486. (Chairman.) What is lower Siddle Hall? —The sewage of the cottages there comes down the I'l Wel’. 12,487. And there are some chemical works, the refuse of which goes into the water P-Yes, the waste drain empties into the Hebble. 12,488. Then there are privies which empty into the stream 2–Yes. 12,489. There are small gasworks, does any refuse from them go in 2–1 questioned the fireman and he says that they sell it. On inquiry at most of the gasworks I find that there is such an anxiety for the liquor and tar, that there is no occasion to throw it into the stream. 12,490. The refuse of the lower Shaw Hill mill goes in 2–Yes. 12,491. Are any ashes thrown in there —Yes; cottage ashes. 12,492. Is there any other refuse?—There is the refuse of a grease extracting work there, and within a day or two for the first time I have had a complaint about a most noxious smell at those grease works, and from my experience at other grease works, I think that the man is not thoroughly acquainted with the mode of doing it. Some years ago we had complaints respecting several firms, and they put their heads to work in order to carry on their trade without causing smells, and of late we have had no complaint about them. 12,493. You have a drain near Whitegate which passes into the brook?—Yes. 12,494. And there are two privies at Taylor's Bridge –Yes. 12,495. Refuse liquid from some other works goes in 2–Yes. 12,496. The main outfall empties itself into the brook 2–Yes. 12,497. The drainage from the Caddifield district enters the brook 2–Yes, there is a small district. 12,498. Then there is refuse from chemical works 2 —Yes. 12,499. And from works near the “Ship Inn Pº- Yes. 12,500. There is refuse from Messrs. Whitehead’s wire mill 2–Yes. 12,501. And from the Albion Mills belonging to Messrs. Robert Crossley —Yes. 12,502. There are two privies there 7–Yes. 12,503. Then there is the refuse from the works of Messrs. Thomas Crossley and Company ?–Yes. 12,504. I suppose that this list which you have handed in is a correct list of the class of refuse which goes into your river and brook –Yes, with some qualification. As regards one or two gasworks which are named, I find upon strict inquiry that they are disposing of all their liquor and gas tar, but still there is evidence that it has gone in. 12,505. Within a recent period —The tar is there in some places. 12,506. And I daresay that you have had com- plaints from manufacturers that their cloth is seriously injured if refuse targets on 2–Yes, frequently. 12,507. Do you know anything of the mills beyond your borough —Yes. 12,598. Do any manufacturers outside the borough throw in their waste refuse –The ashes up in that neighbourhood are in a suspicious condition. 12,509. You mean suspiciously near the stream 2– Yes ; but I must also say that when we get above Pillings' dyeworks at Lee Bridge, the water is com- paratively pure ; and also above the works of John Crossley and Sons in Old Lane the stream seems to be pretty pure. 12,510. Do you think, so far as you know the dis- trict, that there would be any serious difficulty in all parties being compelled to keep their refuse out of the stream —I do not ; particularly the solids. 12,511. As to the fluid refuse, that is a question upon which you would not offer any opinion ?–No, I am not enough of a chemist. 12,512. As regards solids, such as ashes and even privy refuse, if a large mill can keep out all its refuse, a small cottage may do so —Yes; I think that it is decidedly necessary that some law should be enacted, or that there should be some supervision of greater force than we have, to stop all those solid matters from going into the stream. 12,513. Do any chimneys in Halifax smoke 2–Very much so, many of them. 12,514. Do you think that if you were authorized to look after those chimnies, and if the law was powerful enough, you could induce the proprietors of them to prevent those chimnies from smoking?—I make regular inspections at intervals and report to the sanitary committee upon them. I have heard the evidence of Mr. Rawson given this afternoon, and I quite concur in his views relative to the application of Jukes's patent in this neighbourhood, for this reason, Messrs. Crossley have a chimney which has no other boiler than Jukes's patent, and I can observe that chimney for hours together and not see smoke come out of it; now and then, when I have made ob- servations, there has been perhaps for half a minute of time a light smoke, but I have put it down, more to show the difference which I have observed than to indicate any quantity which has come out (the witness produced a diagram and eaglained it). 12,515. You think that trade might be carried on by well-adapted and simple means without making smoke P-I do, and perhaps it would not be unwise to add that Mr. Bailey, who was lately engineer to Messrs. Crossley’s great carpet works, was decidedly opposed to Jukes's process, not on the ground that it did not consume the smoke, but on the ground that it was more expensive ; but just previously to leaving he told me that they had arrived at a point at which it was rather a saving than otherwise; he has since left their employ and gone into business for himself. 12,516. Then your experience would lead you to the conclusion that that apparatus may be worked so as to prevent smoke, and at all events not to be more costly than the ordinary process —Yes, that is from the evidence of practical persons; I have not tried it myself. 12,517. But you have watched the chimney tops? —Yes. 12,518. Do you know Messrs. Rawson's works 2– Yes. 12,519. They do not make any smoke 2–No ; I have also observed Messrs. Edwards’ works and also RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 385 the works of the late Colonel Polland in Wheatley. I went down to Wheatley and had some conversation with the engineer there, Mr. Law, who has the management of the work, and I asked him whether he would like to go back to the old process : “No,” he said, “I am a gentleman compared with what I “ used to be, and I am certain that we produce more “ power with less coal than we did before.” Relative to the other mode of firing, some 12 months ago Messrs. Crossley were very much complained of to the committee by myself in my reports and they seemed to be at a loss what to with their firers, the idea struck me one day that to try the men I would let them know as a secret through another person that I was going to observe, he went and did so, and on that day from that chimney for an hour and a half I could not see a streak of dense smoke, it was fired merely by hand. 12,520. But they knew that you were watching 2– Yes, because I had sent somebody to tell them so. The result of it was that the ex-mayor and myself were deputed to go and see the principals upon the subject, and Dr. Wightman explained to Mr. Joseph, who has that department in hand, what we had done, and he went with us to the firemen. The man who was there said, “I can do nothing with these firers, “ and I must have an entirely new set of firers to do “ what you want.” I said, “Perhaps these men will “ do it if they have encouragement to do it,” and Mr. Joseph said, “I like that idea, and so long as they “ keep the volume of smoke down below what the “ corporation allow, I will give them 1s, more a “ week, and if they get above it I will deduct 6d.” Since then that chimney has not made half the smoke which it made before, and I inquired the other day, and I believe that the men are still in the receipt of their 1s, a week, and that is a great improvement (I think it justice to state that) upon the old mode of firing. 12,521. Then you think that it is quite as much a question of the fireman as of any special arrange- ment 2–I would not go quite so far as that. I believe that Jukes's process is better for this reason, as Mr. Rawson has said, namely, that you have not to depend upon the fireman. In this part of the country, where there are little manufacturers, the engine tenter has to oil and look to the shafting, and so on, and in that case Jukes's process would still be doing its work, whereas without it when he goes away he is obliged to throw on a great quantity of coal, and, as you have explained to-day, that is a great cause of smoke, and then he goes and stirs up of the coal and there is a big volume of smoke. I think that Jukes's is the preferable plan. I may also state that I was deputed some time ago by Mr. Alderman Battison to go to the great paper works of Messrs. Wrigley, near Bury. We had heard of a great improvement introduced there, viz., hollow grate bars admitting air in front, and letting it out behind, just under the bridge. Before going near their works, we made observation upon two large chimnies of some 60 or 80 yards, and the result was very satisfactory, considering the amount of power which they had; it was nothing like so bad as in some places. When we got to the estab- lishment of Messrs. Wrigley we found that they had 12 forty-horse boilers working night and day. They took us through the works and showed us the appa- ratus, and they seemed very much satisfied with Biggs's patent of hollow grate bars, but Mr. Alderman Battison and myself were of opinion that nothing was equal to Jukes's patent. - 12,522. Have you not heard that Jukes's patent can only be applied to a circular boiler with the fire underneath —Yes. 12,523. And that the modern process places the fire within the boiler —Yes, I am quite aware of that. I am now speaking of smoke consuming and not as to saving fuel or heat. 12,524. You know what parliamentary smoke is —Yes. 12,525. It is smoke which you can see through — Yes. 17159.-2. 12,526. Have you anything further to add 2–I think that in all towns, particularly those which are situated as Halifax is, independently of sewerage, the bed of the river ought to be paved. 12,527. As they have been doing in Bolton and Blackburn ?—I was not aware of that ; I have stated that people living near the stream do not appear to suffer so much, but I think that is in consequence of the effluvium rising and getting to the upper parts of the town, and that persons on the immediate stream do not suffer. There is another thing which I should wish to add, namely, that I believe that if it was not for the chemicals of the dyers going into the drainage we should have a great deal more disease. 12,528. You think that the chemicals act as disin- fectants and prevent the sewage matter from being more noxious than it otherwise would be 2–I do. There is another thing, namely, that where there are no proper means of purifying sewage I think that privies are far preferable, and I think that earth closets (which I have not seen) would be far pre- ferable to any watercloset system, unless there was some system of purifying the sewage before it went into the river. We find that in Halifax we have a very great difficulty in the old ashpit system, and no doubt there is a great deal of disease generated from our rude mode of carrying on ashpits and privies. Of late years, with the practice which I have had, I have found that ashes are a deodorant, and with our present system of drainage I have discouraged water- closets wherever I could, particularly among the poorer classes, and for this reason, they get out of repair from children going, and so on, and they get to be a much greater nuisance than privies. When privies become a nuisance there is a mode of getting rid of the refuse, but in the case of waterclosets, they are neglected, and there is a bad smell, and the people suffer, and they do not know what from. I sometimes find that they are weeks or months suffering from the bad effects. Frequently in the case of respectable houses I have been called in, and have found that the waterclosets have been entirely untrapped and have been ventilating into the houses. 12,529. Your surveyor has told us to-day that your sewers are not ventilated?—They are not except by the house falling spouts means of ventilation. I have had an idea in my own mind for some time of ventilating the sewers. I do not know the patent which has been obtained, but I think that our mill chimneys would make first rate ventilators to main sewers. I have thought that an arrangement might be made by the corporation paying an acknowledgment, and that those sewers which are at the upper part of the town con- nected with the mills and furnaces, would be much better ventilated in that way than by any other system. That is an idea of my own. 12,530. In the city of Carlisle we connected the sewers with the mill chimnies in six or seven cases. Of course the first consideration of the millowners is to maintain their own draught, and every extra inlet into the chimney diminishes their draught. If they would let you pass a 9 or 10-inch flue into the chimney it would be good, but it would not be so good as mak- ing numerous ventilators throughout the town. You would not be safe trusting to mill chimneys alone with- out other means?—I am very much obliged to you for making that statement. 12,531. (Mr. Harrison.) When new buildings are erected have you any supervision as to the ashpits 2 —There is an improvement committee of the corpora- tion, and all building plans go before that committee and before the surveyor. Of late the corporation have taken great pains not to allow anybody to build conveniences over the river, but of course they allow privies, and they are now constructed in most cases so that the ashes will mix with the night-soil. A great evil in Halifax has been in having ashpits placed beyond the row of privies; there is a little hole, and the ashes are just dropped in and never get near the soil, and the soil exposed to the rain and sun has caused a great nuisance; but that matter has been 3 C HALIFAX. Mr. S. Magson. 17 Nov. 1866. - 386 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. S. Wagson. looked to lately, and the ashes have been put upon the night-soil. 12,532. In the case of those ashpits which have been constructed under the inspection of the borough surveyor, have you found any injury arising to health 2 —No ; whenever I have found ashpits so constructed that the ashes could get upon the night-soil the privies have been almost completely deodorized as compared with others. There is another thing which I wish to mention, namely, that in many parts there is a sort of natural giving in of the ground, and many of those places have had to be drained, otherwise the water begins to ferment and becomes a very great nuisance. 12,533. If there are ashpits of that kind, it becomes of great importance to keep all the water out of them? —It does. (Mr. Morris.) There is one circumstance con. nected with Mr. Magson's evidence which I should like to get upon the notes, namely, that by our bye- laws we do not allow any privy to be erected within five feet of any door. The witness withdrew. Mr. GEORGE DUNBAR MALAM (Halifax) examined. 12,534. (Chairman.) You are manager of the Halifax Gasworks –Yes. 12,535. Do they belong to a company –They belong to the corporation. 12,536. Where are they situated 2–They are situated partly on the banks of the Hebble at the foot of Beacon Hill. 12,537. How many retorts have you now in use – 238. 12,538. What is the cubic volume of gas which you produce annually?–Close upon 160,000,000 cubic feet. 12,539. What weight of coal per annum do you use * —About 17,000 tons. 12,540. What kind of coal?—Lancashire cannel, Yorkshire cannel, and Yorkshire coal. 12,541. Do you use earthenware retorts, or iron ones?—They are all earthenware. 12,542. What weight of far do you make per annum ?–Nearly 900 tons. 12,543. What weight of ammoniacal liquor do you make 2–About the same quantity. 12,544. Have you any difficulty in getting rid of your tar and ammoniacal liquor –Not the slightest, we sell it all. 12,545. What do you get for your tar?–18s. 6d. is the highest price to the contractor, but the burgesses I believe pay something more. I think that 11, per ton is the highest price. 12,546. What do you get for your ammoniacal liquor P-That is taken in bulk. 12,547. What do you get for it per annum ?— 365/. 12,548. What do you purify with ?–Oxide of iron principally. 12,549. Do you use oxide of iron exclusively?—We mix a little lime with it. 12,550. What amount of refuse have you per annum from the lime –The materials are all mixed up together, and the refuse is taken away by the person who supplies us with the oxide, in order to manufac- ture sulphur. 12,551. Then you have no refuse from purifying upon your premises —Not at the present moment : in the last two or three years we have had probably 200 or 300 tons of refuse oxide. 12,552. Because the manufacturer did not choose to take it away –Just so. 12,553. Have you made a bargain with him to take it away ?—I do not think that there is any bargain with him that he shall take it away, but I think that it is optional. 12,554. Is it a nuisance while remaining 2–Not at all. 12,555. Is the lime a very great nuisance 2–Yes, because sulphuretted hydrogen would be evolved into the atmosphere. 12,556. Is there any refuse in your manufacture which you cannot dispose of 2–None at all. 12,557. Do you pass anything whatever into the streams or sewers ?–Not now. 12,558. Did you do so some years ago —Two or three years ago we did. 12,559. Neither tar, ammoniacal liquor, nor any solid refuse now passes into the stream 2–No. 12,560. What amount of coke do you produce per annum – Between 7,000 and 8,000 tons for sale. 12,561. Do you find a ready disposal for it – Occasionally we do, when the weather is suitable for the consumption of fuel. 12,562. You use a portion of it for your own processes 2–Yes." 12,563. I suppose that you distil your coal by it —Yes. 12,564. Do you make any smoke on your premises 2 —No. 12,565. No smoke passes from your chimney — No. 12,566. How frequently do you find it necessary to change the water in the gas tank wells?—We do not change it at all. The only instance where any tank is emptied would be in the case of telescoping a single lift as was done I believe two years ago. 12,567. You do so only in the case of some radical alteration being required 2–Yes. 12,568. What is the net profit which you make for the corporation in your manufacture ?—I am informed by the borough accountant that the gross profit is upwards of 11,000l. a year, and that the net income is about 4,000l. a year. 12,569. What do you charge consumers for gas for shop purposes; how much per 1,000 cubic feet – 4s. in the borough : then there is a discount. 12,570. And your larger consumers have it for less? —Yes, I believe that the lowest price comes down to 3s. 24d. 12,571. Have you ever applications from residents in the neighbourhood for you to allow them to bring their children into your purifying house when they have croup or measles —Yes, very often. 12,572. What are the diseases for which they think it good —They think it good for croup. 12,573. Are many children brought to be put into the purifying house?—Yes; at certain seasons of the year. I think that they come principally in the winter time. 12,574. Do you think that it does them any service? —No doubt of it. 12,575. Are your men a healthy class of men?— Undoubtedly so ; they are free from almost every form of disease except what they bring upon them- selves by inebriety. 12,576. So far as your knowledge and experience goes there is nothing injurious to health in the manu- facture of gas —I have lived all my lifetime either on gasworks or next door to them, and I do not consider myself an unhealthy man, or unable to do a day’s work with any man of my own age. 12,577. Do you observe any nuisance —No ; there may be a nuisance to a stranger. Occasionally there is a little nuisance when the purifying vessels are first opened ; there is then a slight trace of sul- phuretted hydrogen, and of course that is not pleasant. 12,578. How long has the practice existed of mothers wishing to bring their children into the puri- fying house –I have known it since I was a child. 12,579. Are more children brought now than were at first —No, I do not think that people know the value of it, or else they would avail themselves of it more than they do. You may have seen it stated in the newspaper, that some Parisian doctor has lately referred to the use of it as if it was some new dis- covery, whereas it is as old as my recollection. The witness withdrew. ****** - RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 387 Mr. Joseph BEAUMONT (Elland) examined. 12,580. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you a manufacturer --No, I am a finisher of woollen cloths, and we require clean water for our purposes. 12,581. Where are your works situated 2–At Elland. 12,582. Is that on the banks of the Calder 2–Yes. 12,583. Is it below the confluence of the Hebble and the Calder 2–Yes. 12,584. Does the Calder and Hebble Canal pass near your works?—Yes. 12,585. Is the water with which the Hebble Canal up to Halifax is supplied pumped from the river Hebble 2–Yes, 12,586. Does that water contain the sewage of Halifax besides other impurities?—Yes. 12,587. Is there a deposit in the canal from that water 2–Yes. 12,588. How do the canal company get rid of that —We should not complain if they did not continue the open sluice sometimes for 12 or 14 days in suc- cession, during the whole of which time we have dirty water ; we suffer so greatly from it that we might as well give up our business during that time. 12,589. How frequently does such an interference with your trade occur –Every summer. 12,590. Are you dependent upon the water of the Calder for washing your goods –Entirely. 12,591. And this occurs every summer for about 14 days –Yes, and it is not only that, but they have sluices on various parts of the canal above us, and at certain periods they open those sluices and send down the water by sludging or dragging to the mouth of the sluice. 12,592. How many hands have you employed at your works?—We arefulling millers; we employ about 20 hands. 12,593. And for the time which you have men- tioned those hands would be all thrown out of work 2 —The water has been so very dirty that we have had considerable complaints with respect to our goods. 12,594. Is it sometimes sent down without your knowledge so that you go on using the water 2– Entirely so ; they have not given us any notice. 12,595. Therefore you are interested in some remedy for the present pollution of the rivers and of the canal adjoining?—Especially so; the river Calder is at a certain time in summer a boiling stinking mass which everybody has to pass in going over Elland Bridge in order to get to the railway station. We receive not only that but all the Halifax sewage. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to Monday next at 10 o'clock, at Todmorden. Todmorden, Monday, 19th November 1866. PRESENT : ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THoRNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Mr. WILLIAM SUTCLIFFE (Todmorden) examined. 12,596. (Chairman.) Are you a resident in Todmor- den P-Yes. 12,597. Do you carry on any business here?—I am a corn miller. 12,598. Where is your mill situated, how far from the town 2–About half a mile, it is Stansfield Mill. 12,599. Is it above or below the town 2–It is below the town, on the Halifax Road. 12,600. What amount of power do you use?–I employ two 12-horse engines and a water-wheel. 12,601. Of what power is the water-wheel?—I have not had that tested. 12,602. What number of stones can it drive 2–At first it drove seven pairs of stones ; I can now drive about five. 12,603. What power does it require to drive the stones —Some corn millers estimate that it requires 3-horse power, and some 4; but it will depend entirely upon the amount of feed upon the stones. 12,604. It is not so low as 24 horse power —No. 12,605. How many dressing machines do you drive? —I have two silk-dressing machines; they do not require much power; I have six pairs of French stones, and a pair of grey stones for Indian corn or oatmeal. 12,606. How long has that mill been established 2– The present mill was built, I believe, in 1804; but there was one prior to that. 12,607. How long have you been lessee of this mill? —I am owner, and have worked the mill ten years. 12,608. You said, I think, that you have not so much water power now as you had formerly 2—I have not. 12,609. Has the mill-tail goit sometimes been choked up 2–The last winter the Todmorden gas company threw in all their ashes into the river at the outlet of my tail goit, and they have raised the tail goit, and the bed of the river has been raised lower down. 12,610. Did you remonstrate against that 2–Yes, I brought an action against them, and obtained 150/. damages. 12,611. Did you consider that that was as much as you ought to have had for the damage you had sus- tained 2–No. 12,612. You would rather have had your power not interfered with ?–Yes, I should have preferred that. 12,613. (Mr. Harrison.) I presume the gas com- pany are restrained from running their refuse into the river?—They have not done it since I got the verdict. 12,614. How is it that your power is now reduced from seven pairs to five pairs of stones 2–The reduc- tion is in consequence of the deposit lower down the river, below the gasworks. 12,615. Have you taken any steps to prevent that? —The law proceedings have not yet terminated. 12,616. Have you brought any actions against other parties besides the gas company ?–No, I have not. 12,617. What amount of coal do you burn at your steam mills 2–It is very uncertain ; it depends upon the supply of water. 12,618. Do you burn 50 or 100 tons in a year – I cannot say. 12,619. Do you burn 50 tons?–It depends entirely upon the water. 12,620. Whatever the weight may be, what do you do with the ashes 2–I use them to repair roads, and for draining purposes; I have never put any into the river. 12,621. Do you put any refuse of any kind into the river ?—Some six or seven years ago, when I cieaned out my head goit, the refuse that had come out of the river into my head goit I put back into the river below my weir. 12,622. Do you consider that the introduction of general restrictions against putting solids into the river would be a great hardship 2–I do not presume that it would be, as far as I am concerned. 12,623. If all persons were compelled to keep their refuse out of the river, you would not object 2–Not at all. 12,624. What amount of costs did the law proceed- HA LIFAX. Mr. J. Beaumont, 17 Nov. 1866. TODMORDEN. Mr. W. Sutcliffe. 19 Nov. 1866. ---- 3 C 2 388 RIVERS COMMISSION --—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. TODMORDEN. Mr. W. Sutcliffe. 19 Nov. 1866. Mr.J. Buckley. Mr. R. Fielding. ings entail upon you?—I have not yet received the account; but I do not think that the 150/. will cover my costs, besides the annoyance. 12,625. It was the case of one neighbour prosecuting another ?—Yes; and I would rather not do that, if I could avoid it. 12,626. Are not ashes and refuse thrown into the river above you by other persons besides the gas company 2–Yes. 12,627. Is it not a general practice here to throw solids into the river ?–Yes; the river is the common receptacle for everything. 12,628. Road scrapings, and all —Yes. 12,629. At the bridge there was a great collection of cinders, which the flood has partly taken away ?— Yes. 12,630. Did not those cinders come from the dwelling houses?—I presume so. - 12,631. Have you been flooded during the last week so as to stop your works —Yes. 12,632. Are you frequently stopped in that way 2– No ; the water ran through my mill nearly all that day. On Friday last I was prepared for it ; one of my men called myself and my sons up about 5 o'clock in the morning, and we cleared the mill bottom, or I might have been seriously damaged. I had a large amount of flour in the mill bottom. 12,633. It would cost you a considerable sum, I suppose, to clear the mill –I had to pay all the men for Friday last, for merely looking after the flood. 12,634. Do you think that the flood was higher than it would have been, from the river having gradually silted up 2–No question of it. 12,635. If the same thing goes on, I suppose the river will naturally silt up still higher?—No doubt. In some places it has silted up very much now ; I can see it now that the flood waters have abated. 12,636. Have any other manufacturers suffered from the flood —I believe they have. 12,637. Did the water come into the mill floors — Yes. 12,638. What accommodation have you provided for your men in the shape of privies, or ashpits — I have none about the mill. 12,639. Where then do the men go —There is a privy up at the cottages above. 12,640. Is that refuse passed into the river ?–No, it is not ; it is carted on to land. 12,641. Have you observed, since the late flood, whether the bed of the river is altered below your mill –Opposite to my mill it is higher than it was prior to the flood. 12,642. Has the water tailed back against your water-wheel, in consequence —I have not paid particular attention to that this morning. 12,643. The bed of the river, you think, has been raised ?–Yes, opposite my mill ; but the outlet of my tail-goit is considerably below it. 12,644. It is generally supposed that a flood clears out a river, but your experience is that the recent flood has raised the bed of the river at one point 2– Yes. 12,645. The tendeney is to clear it away in some parts, and to form banks in others?—Yes; it may clear it away in one part, and deposit it in another. 12,646. The result of such an operation is, to increase flooding upon adjacent land 2–Yes. 12,647. Was much land below. Todmorden flooded ? —The whole valley. 12,648. Is land injured by flooding 2—Unquestion- ably, there is a great deposit of mud and sand. 12,649. And all kinds of refuse 2–Yes. 12,650. Will that injure meadows for some time to come 2–Yes; before grass can get through this deposit will have to be scraped away. 12,651. (Chairman.) Do you know what quantity of rain fell last week, on the days which preceded the flood 2–No. 12,652. Have you no rain gauge at Todmorden 2– No. 12,653. Do you know what height the flood rose from the lowest level up to the highest; did it rise as much as 10 or 12 feet —No ; I should think not so much as that, but from six to nine feet. I have not measured it. 12,654. Was it a greater flood than you remember before ?–No ; I think I can remember as large a flood in my time. 12,655. When was that —Perhaps 20 or 30 years ago. The witness withdrew. Mr. John BUCKLEY (Todmorden) examined. 12,656. (Chairman.) What business are you engaged in 2–I am a boiler maker. 12,657. Where are your works situated — At Gorksall. 12,658. Upon the banks of the river ?—Not exactly. 12,659. Are you affected by the river at any time? —Not at all. 12,660. How many men do you employ 2–32. 12,661. Have you any privies or ashpits on your premises –Yes. 12,662. Are their contents emptied into the river ? —No ; we cart them away. 12,663. Were you affected by the flood during the last week —No. 12,664. Are you a member of the local board here? —Yes. 12,665. Do you know whether the local board has anything to do with cleansing the river ?—I am not aware of it. 12,666. Have any questions been brought before you and discussed as to solid matters being thrown into the river ?—The subject has been occasionally mentioned. 12,667. Ashes and road scrapings are thrown into the river, are they not –Yes. 12,668. Do the men who work upon the roads for the local board throw road scrapings into the river ?— I cannot speak to that ; the local board does not scrape the roads, that is done by the highway surveyor. 12,669. Has not the local board charge of the roads 2 —No, not particularly. 12,670. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you use steam power —Yes. 12,671. What do you do with the ashes 2–We throw part of them into the river. 12,672. (C., a rººm.) Has any person remonstrated with you for doing so *-No. - 12,673. Do you know what weight of ashes is thrown into the river in a year —Not exactly; we do not throw in much. 12,674. Is there any difficulty in keeping them out? —The only difficulty is to find a place for them ; I should not know where to cart them to. The witness withdrew. Mr. RobFRT FIELDING (Todmorden) examined. 12,675. (Chairman.) What is your business?—I am a spinner and manufacturer. 12,676. What is the name of your works 2–I have Birks Mill and Hoyle Bottom Mill. 12,677. Are they both on the river ?—Not exactly; they are neither of them close upon it. 12,678. Where do you get your water from ?—From the land above, 12,679. How many hands do you employ —I cannot tell, probably 250; mine are cotton mills. 12,680. What weight of coal do you consume in a year —I do not know. 12,681. What is the power of your engines 2–We have two 20-horse engines. 12,682. What do you do with the ashes 3–Some- RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 389 times we throw them into the brook, and sometimes we cart them away. 12,683. Then you just do as you like with them?—Yes. 12,684. Have you privies and ashpits, or water closets, at these mills 2—We have privies. 12,685. Does any of the refuse go into the river or brook 2–Not that I am aware of 12,686. Do you cart it all on to the land 3–Yes. 12,687. Do you think the river is a proper place to put ashes in 7–There is nowhere else here to take them to; some folks have no land to carry them to. 12,688. There is a railway is there not ?—Yes. 12,689. Cannot they be taken away by the railway ? —Yes, but that would be an expense. 12,690. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you think that the ashes you throw into the river deposit themselves in the bed below, and cause a nuisance to those who own water power and who have meadows on the banks — There is no doubt that ashes so thrown in are the means of injuring parties below. 12,691. Would it not be right, therefore, that people should keep them out, and not injure others below ; —Yes, but there are water weirs besides. 12,692. Do they stop ashes and other things —No doubt they will. 12,693. If there were no ashes to stop of course they would not stop them —No. 12,694. Do you think that the injury caused by the flood last week all down the valley was considerable to adjoining lands 2—No doubt it was considerable. 12,695. And to mills –Yes. 12,696. Has it not cost individuals all down the stream a considerable sum of money —Yes. 12,697. Some lives have been lost f-Yes. 12,698. Any occurrence of this kind which raises the bed of the river and floods the adjoining land, causing at the same time bridges to be carried away, endangers not only the property on the banks but the lives of persons living there –Yes. 12,699. Considering these things, do you not think that the government should take some steps to prevent solid refuse being thrown into the river ?–No doubt it would be a benefit if there were a place provided to deposit ashes upon, but there is an immense quantity of wrack, or solid refuse, that comes down ; thousands of tons in a year, which come down from the mountains in the shape of gravel and sand. 12,700. Is there much washed out of the quarries 2 —I should say not so very much out of the quarries, for they are at a distance. 12,701. Is there not a quarry below the town, and pretty close to the river ?—Yes, there is one, but there is the canal between. The witness withdrew. Mr. ABRAHAM STANsfield (Todmorden) examined. 12,702. (Chairman.) In what business are you engaged 2–I am a nurseryman. 12,703. Where are your grounds situated —About 300 yards from the side of the river. 12,704. Are your grounds liable to be affected by the river in time of flood —Yes, they are. 12,705. Were your grounds flooded at all last week 2 —Yes, very seriously in the lower part of the nursery. 12,706. To what depth were your grounds covered with water 2–From 18 inches to two feet deep at the bottom part. 12,707. Has the flood left a deposit of sand on the ground 2–It has covered great plots of rhododendrons with mud, and the leaves are the colour of the road instead of being green ; it has left a great deposit of very fine mud. 12,708. What do you think the damage will be to you individually by the flooding 2—I do not think it will be very excessive, but we have suffered in the house as well as in the nursery, in the cellars; the cellars and kitchens have been very much flooded. 12,709. How long have you known this river ?— For 55 or 60 years. 12,710. In that time has the trade of the district increased largely —Yes, immensely ; large cotton mills have grown up. 12,711. Is it the practice in Todmorden to throw ashes and solid refuse into the river ?—It is, I believe, very generally. 12,712. Has that a tendency to lift up the bed of the river and fill the channel ?–Not a very material ten- dency; I think the solid refuse would be carried away far off if the banks were kept up; it is the ruinous condition of the banks and the lowness of them that cause the filling up of the channel, for as soon as the debris gets down to a place where the water overflows the banks, the water breaks through the banks, and the refuse, instead of going down the stream, is left in the bed of the river and cannot be carried away. 12,713. The injury caused is not so much by filling up the bed of the stream as by breaking down the banks?—No, not so much ; but the banks breaking down, and the pressure being taken off by the water flowing over on to the land, all the debris remains deposited which would be carried away if the water was kept in its right course. 12,714. Do you think that you would be justified in throwing solid refuse into the river, because it did not stop here *-No, I should be against putting anything of that sort in on many grounds, and one is that I think it is desirable that our river should be kept pure. I remember the time when there was abundance of fish here, now there are none; in consequence of the materials that are thrown in, the nastiness of the stream is prejudicial not only to the lives of fish, but gene- rally, no doubt, also to the health of the people. 12,715. Do you not think that if 20,000 tons of refuse are thrown into this river, and none of it stops here, the probability is that the refuse settles some- where else below –Certainly. 12,716. It would tend to raise the bed of the river where the fall is not so steep as it is here?–Yes, at some points, where the channel is broad. 12,717. Although you might not experience the evil effects here, persons down below would where the river course is flatter —Yes, unless the banks of the river were kept up, so that the water could be kept in ; if so, I think it would go to the ocean, through the great estuary of Yorkshire; the force of the stream would increase the lower you go down, but as soon as the pressure is taken off by the water flowing over on to the fields, then the force of the water cannot carry the materials forward. 12,718. Are you aware that the bed of the river Ouse has gradually risen within the memory of boat- men working upon it?—No, but I have no doubt it is so in places where the channel has not been kept narrow. 12,719. Have you a rain gauge upon your premises : —Yes. 12,720. Do you know what amount of rain fell last week —From Thursday morning till Saturday morn- ing there were 3-94 inches. 12,721. Have you ever registered so heavy a rain- fall before ?—Never in the same time. 12,722. How long have you had a rain gauge – We have only kept it registered for two years. 12,723. (Mr. Harrison.) How often do you record the rainfall —Sometimes every day : not always: on Friday it was recorded. A record should have been made for Thursday, but it was so wet that no one would venture out, and the rain went on for 48 hours. 12,724. Can you give the rainfall for two years here 2–Yes, I can. We are in connexion with the Bacup meteorological people, where they keep rain gauges, and we send our accounts there. 12,725. Have you observed whether when there is a certain amount of rainfall the water floods the adjoining land where you live sooner than it used to do 2–No, I do not know that it does; I have not observed it. We should not have been flooded on this occasion if the banks of the river had been kept entire. It was entirely in consequence of the break in the banks of the river. TODMORDEN. Mr. R. Fielding. 19 Nov. 1866. Mr. A. Stansfield. 3 C 3 390 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. TOD MORDEN. Mr. A. Stansfield. 19 Nov. 1866. Mr. C. Chambers, - 12,726. Is it the duty of the local boards, or any persons, to keep the banks in order –I think not. It is everybody's duty, and of course it becomes nobody's. 12,727. Would it not be advantageous if it was somebody's duty to see that the river was kept in order 2—There is no doubt of that. It would be a benefit to every one if it were judiciously done, with economy and care. 12,728. Have you observed that the meadows all the way down are covered with debris —Yes. 12,729. Is it your opinion that the damage done by the flood of last week was considerable 2–Yes, very considerable. I should mention that the debris which is brought down by the river is not of a fertilizing kind. There are many little pebbles and much coarse sand and grit. It is not that fine calcareous mud that you meet with in limestone countries. 12,730. It is not like giving a warping below — No ; it is an injurious thing, and the mud has to be removed. 12,731. How do you manage in a case of this kind to set to work and remove that sand 2–Men take it away in barrows where it is very thick; where it is thin they spread it over. 12,732. (Chairman.) Do they take it back to the river ?–I should say not ; but it may have been the CaSe. 12,733. (Mr. Harrison.) After going to an expense to remove the sand, will much injury be done to the grass; will it recover itself next season 2–I think there will be no material damage done if the sand is removed properly. I think it is a very important matter that faecal matters should be kept out of the l’IVer, The witness 12,734. Is it the common practice to place privies on the bank of the river, and so dispose of the refuse? —Yes, in many cases it is so ; but in many cases the privies are emptied. We have a custom in some parts of the town, indeed the local board insists upon it, that the privies shall be provided with boxes. 12,735. Are you a member of the local board 2– Not at present ; I was formerly. Privies are provided with loose boxes, and these are kept in the petties until nearly full, and then they are taken away. In some cases they are taken to the river, but in others they are taken and emptied on to the land. 12,736. If some general regulation was laid down I suppose the boxes could all be removed with benefit to the land and to the inhabitants 2–Yes. 12,737. Have you found the boxes to be a nuisance? —No; I think it is the best arrangement in these petties. You have the place very clean. When a box is washed out all the place is clean. It is not like having a cesspool which you can never have per- fectly clean. In a box you can partially deodorize it by scattering a few ashes on the top of the faecal matter, and when you clear out the box and wash it out it will be perfectly clean for a time. 12,738. (Chairman.) Have you seen the earth closet which has been invented 2–No ; but I have no doubt it is a very excellent thing, and that it would be better if it could be adopted in preference to a watercloset. These are a great nuisance here because the drains are very imperfect and bad. 12,739. Does the local board remove ashes from houses —They do upon certain conditions. I do not know what the conditions are, but they will remove them upon certain conditions, withdrew. Mr. CHARLEs CHAMBERs (Todmorden) examined. 12,740. (Chairman.) In what business are you engaged 2–I am a cotton spinner. 12,741. Where are your works —About 150 yards from this place. - 12,742. On the bank of the river?—Close adjoining. 12,743. What number of workmen do you employ —About 200. 12,744. How long have the works been established 2 –40 years. 12,745. What horse power do you use –About 50-horse power. 12,746. What weight of coal do you burn in a week 2 —About 24 tons. 12,747. What do you do with the ashes 2–1 throw them into the river, and always have done for 40 years. 12,748. Have you any privy accommodation upon your premises 2–Yes. 12,749. Does the refuse go into the river ?—It used to go into the river, but the local board, two years ago, arranged to take it away at certain charges. Since then we have made various applications to them, but we have never been able to get it done. The cart, horse, and man have been away. We take it away ourselves : but the local board made an arrangement to take it away at certain charges, and they have not done it; we do it ourselves. 12,750. Are you a member of the local board 2–I have been. 12,751. Have you any land of your own 2–Not in the valley. - 12,752. I mean that you could cultivate by applying sewage to it?–No. 12,753. Would it be expensive to you if you were told that you should not do as you had done before, but that you must get rid of the refuse in some other way ?–I should be willing to submit to a cost of that sort if it was made a general law. I think it is proper that all persons should be put under one regulation. 12,754. Do the floods in the river interfere with or injure your mill?–Yes. During the last 30 years I have lost the whole value of my property by floods flooding the basement and the machinery, which might have been cured if there had been some central con- trolling power to have spent perhaps 400l. in regulating the river, keeping it within its channel, and lowering its bed. I believe that the trustees of the Todmorden Road have lost more money than would have sufficed for building once for all the entire side walls which they have only imperfectly put there again and again for their own protection. 12,755. Are the floods worse now than they were when you first knew the river ?—I think not. There is a larger area of ground covered with buildings, and very great injury is done to the people in consequence; but for the last 40 years we have always been flooded. This is the first time that we have escaped for 40 years, and our escape has been due to the river wall having kept up this time. It has broken down from time to time, but fortunately for us this time it is so far perfect as to keep the house out of danger; but I know how to sympathize with my neighbours. 12,756. Do you believe that the damage done to property, not to speak of the loss of life, which has been very great, must be measured by tens of thousands of pounds 2—I have no doubt that an outlay equivalent to the money value of the damage caused by every flood would entirely cure the mischief. I mean that within an area of three miles of this place the money required to repair the damage for four miles down here would be sufficient to keep the river entirely within its limits, and prevent us from receiving any injury whatever and suffering so severely as we do. 12,757. (Mr. Harrison.) You would like to see some authority whose duty it should be to prevent ashes and other solids being thrown into the river, and to look after the bed of the river to see that it was kept at a proper depth, and that the banks were properly secured 2–Yes, I should like to see that done, 12,758. How would you propose to raise money to carry out the requisite works?—By a general taxation in the district. 12,759. Within what limits should you confine that in the case of Todmorden —I do not know why it should not be taken out of the county rates. I do not like very narrow areas. I think that we all live for one another. We did it in this way in the case of the cattle plague, and I do not see why there should be any exception. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 391 12,760. (Chairman.) Did you contribute any part of the rates to pay compensation on account of the cattle plague —I believe about 1%d was put on to meet the compensations; but we did not have a single cow die in this neighbourhood. 12,761. You contributed a portion of your rates to those who had suffered more severely –Yes, we did. There are such a number of proprietors on the river, and to each individual of them belongs a natural right, I suppose, but if one proprietor on the river is per- fectly prepared to put his property in order and pro- vide the security necessary for our protection, per- haps his selfish neighbour below will not do the same, and if he leaves 10 yards of wall in want of repair, the whole mischief may be done. 12,762. No willingness on the part of an individual, nor any amount of expenditure he may go to, will avail, if, as you have said, some selfish individual will neither take part in the cost, nor do any of the necessary work?—That is it. I know that Messrs. Fielden, of Waterside, have a considerable portion of fencing along this road, and there is no division be- tween the road and the river, except the fence; and Messrs. Fielden, of Waterside, have I believe rebuilt their wall frequently, and made it stronger, so as to keep the water within the river; but there are the trustees of the turnpike road, who have another length of river wall, and the rumour is that they do not hold themselves bound to maintain the river wall, so that it is left in an imperfect condition filled up with loose rubble, stones, and loose dirt put on at the top to make a sort of loose wall, the consequence is that we have been flooded half a score times; it has done me about 500l. worth of damage in one flood. 12,763. (Mr. Harrison.) Did you hear what Mr. Sutcliffe stated as to the diminution of the power of his water-wheel from seven to five pairs of stones 2–Yes. 12,764. Is that the case with other water-wheels here 2–I have no doubt at all that the mill goits are filled up with lighter debris, that we throw into the river; but there is a heavy material that we have nothing to do with, ours is the most innocent. The ashes that are put in are very little above the specific gravity of water, except the clinkers, which go to the bottom, and there are very few of those. A great quantity of our stuff, if the river walls were good, would go down by the river. The mischief that is done to people owning watermills is from emptying foundations of cottage houses, and throwing in large boulders. Any man who builds a cottage wheels all the foundation materials into the river; the mills do not ; they have been walled since I was a boy. 12,765. Is there much dyeing done in Todmorden : —None, except what we do. 12,766. What dyes do you use —Nothing but indigo. 12,767. Do you pass the refuse from the indigo into the stream 2–We do as our neighbours do; we throw all sorts of muck into the river that we can. 17,768. Would you be willing to keep your dye refuse out of the river ?–Yes, if you made everybody else do the same. I think we all ought to be com- pelled to do it. 12,769. Can you keep it out —Yes, at an expense, and if we cannot, there are people in the world who will do it for us. 12,770. Have you anything further to add –Yes. I stated before that I was not flooded at all, but my neighbours' dwelling houses were flooded as usual as deep as before; all their cellars were under water. The road for about half a mile above us is rather in a curve. The whole of the surface water is drained from the road into the river, and all the gullyholes are open between the river and the road. The drainage between the cottage houses goes across the road also, and the flood here has been entirely due to those openings in the river banks. The system of drainage through the streets would have taken that water away, but the water has been backed up through the gully- holes, and the houses have been flooded, not by any great and sudden overflow, but by what the slightest amount of science might have prevented. 12,771. You mean perhaps that they should have taken the sewer down to a lower fall, so that the water would not have reached up to the places that were flooded ?–Yes; but the cottages are drained across the road, and the road is drained, and the gully- holes are all open and untrapped, so that there is no protection against the water coming out of the gully- holes that drain the ordinary surface of the roads. The witness withdrew. Mr. THOMAS EDWARD HAMERTON (Todmorden) examined. 12,772. (Chairman.) What business do you carry on 2–I was a solicitor ; but I have retired from business now. 42,773. How long have you known Todmorden P- Upwards of 40 years. 12,774. Isuppose the population has largely increased since you first recollect it –Very greatly indeed. 12,775. Has the mill power increased ?–Very much ; they are building larger mills. 12,776. Can you remember the river during the whole of that period —A little. I did not pay very great attention to it. 12,777. Are there not injurious floods here occasion- ally —Very injurious and very distressing floods. 12,778. Have there been any lawsuits between owners of mills, in consequence of the state of the river at any time, as to water rights?—Yes; there have been frequent disputes as to water rights. As to floodings, about 10 years ago there was a severe flood and an action was brought by one of the inhabitants, who was injured, against the trustees of the Todmor- den Road, to recover damages against them ; it was tried in the County Court here. The case was argued, and it was decided on that occasion that the trustees were not liable, therefore it was decided against the plaintiff. 12,779. (Mr. Harrison.) Was the damage done proved to have been caused by the washing down of any part of the Todmorden Road –It was from the washing down of the embankment. There is a par- ticular part of the road towards Burnley, where the trustees of the road had made an improvement, and the cost was so great that they became alarmed and discontinued it; and the portion of the embankment above that, is continually liable to be thrown down by the pressure of the water. 12,780. Is there anything further that you wish to add 2–I do not know that there is, except this, that the recent flood has been caused by the break- ing down of the embankment, and if the river em- bankments were made firm and sound, and the river was made of equal width, so that the pressure would be equal, I think it would then carry away all the wrack that is put into it at present. The river opposite to my house is a great deal narrower than it is down below, and in consequence when the water gets down below it spreads out, and the silt falls there, and that causes the river above to rise; now I daresay the river is a foot higher than it was two or three years ago, the height keeps advancing, and in the recent flood, notwithstanding all the water that flowed out of the river through the breakage in the embankment, the river overflowed the bank opposite to my house, which it never did to that extent before, That shows that the water in the river, and the bed of it, are raised a foot higher, and that causes the water to overflow the bank. If the river had been made of a proper width, the flow of the water would have car- ried away the whole of the wrack. 12,781. Do you think it is advisable to place the river under the control of some governing body?—I do. 12,782. Whose duty it should be to keep the bed of the river in proper order, and to see that the banks were properly kept up 2–Yes, I think it would be an excellent thing to do that. 12,783. Do you also agree that the district to be bene- fited by such a proceeding, or the whole county, should be made responsible for the expenditure?—I think the whole county; the matter should be a public thing. 3 C 4 TODMORDEN. Mr. C. Chambers. 19 Nov. 1866. Mr. T.E. Hamerton. 392 EVIDENCE. RIVERS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF TOD MOR DEN. Mr. T E. Hamerton. --- 19 Nov. 1866. J. Fielden, Esq. 12,784. (Chairman.) You think that the rivers belong to the county, and the county_ought to main- tain them, not the manufacturers ?–Yes. 12,785. As the manufacturers are rated the heaviest they would necessarily have to pay the largest amount 2 —Yes, they would. The witness withdrew. Josh UA FIELDEN, Esq. (Todmorden), examined. 12,786. (Chairman.) Are you a member of a firm carrying on business here —Yes; I am a member of the firm of Fielden Brothers. 12,787. Are you cotton spinners?—Yes, and manu- facturers. 12,788. How long have your works been established in the Valley of Todmorden –I cannot say. 12,789. Were they established by your father or grandfather ?—By my grandfather, who came down into the vale from the hills in about 1783. 12,790. You are I believe some of the old manu- facturers in the country –Yes, certainly as cotton spinners. 12,791. Have you more than one mill here 2–Yes, we have many mills in this valley, we have five mills on this river, and we have several mills on the tribu- taries to the river up in the hills. 12,792. What number of hands do you employ — About 2,000 when all the machinery is at work; it is not all at work now. 12,793. Have you any idea what weight of coal you burn per annum at your several mills, or what horse power you employ 2—At all the mills we employ from 500 to 600-horse power, and we burn many thousands of tons of coal per annum, perhaps 700 tons a month, or more than that. 12,794. Is it brought to you by railway ?—A con- siderable quantity is got in the valley, up towards Bacup ; we buy it there. 12,795. What does the coal cost you a ton here 2– Engine coal varies according to the place it comes from, some of it will cost from 6s. to 7s. a ton, and other coal will cost from 7s, to 8s. a ton. 12,796. What do you do with the ashes that are made at your mills 2–We put the whole of them into the river, and always have done so, at least ever since I can remember, and I have no doubt it was so before. 12,797. Are any of your mills situated immediately on the banks of the river ?—Yes, nearly all of them. 12,798. Have they at any time suffered from flood- ing 3–The largest mill at Waterside has. 12,799. Did it suffer last week 2–Very little, but previously it did. We have never suffered to the extent that other persons have. All that we have suffered has been from the water getting in two or three inches deep, and leaving a deposit of mud on the floor; we have never had goods destroyed. 12,800. Not so much as Mr. Charles Chambers ?— Nothing like it. 12,801. Has the bed of the river risen since you first remember it 2–There are two rivers ; one is the Walsden water, and the other is the Burnley river, they join in the town. The bed of the Walsden river has not risen, I believe, and during this flood, although I believe the water was as high as I have ever seen it in this river, it did very little damage, because the bed has not risen ; the walls kept the water in. The most disastrous flood that I remember in this valley was in 1851; I think the water then came over the wall, above the toll bar at the end of our works. 12,802. Do you consider that you have acquired what is termed a prescriptive right to turn ashes into the river ?– We believe so. I may mention that throughout this particular district the effects of a flood may result, not from the height of the water, but from a fence breaking down, and the water inundating certain portions of the district. In 1851 it was noticed that the water ran over the wall I have named. It broke down and the district was inundated. On Friday I noticed that it went over that wall, but the wall did not break, and consequently we were not inundated. If the wall had broken, the flood would have destroyed a good deal of property—not houses, but it would have inundated them and caused a great amount of misery. The bed of the river in the Burnley valley certainly has risen. People who have lately died have told me that they could remember the time when they had seen a cart and horse driven under the bridge at the higher lodge at the Centre Vale, but now I do not believe that a little child could go under. 12,803. Then it must have been raised there many feet —Yes six or seven feet, and I believe that that has been owing to the diversion of the river made by the railway company when the railway was laid down from the Shunley valley. There is a chapel at a place called Patmos, and from that point the river took a straight course down to above Mr. Sutcliffe's mill at Stansfield Bridge. Now it comes into the Walsden River at a sharp angle almost at right angles, and the length of the river is increased. The bed of the Burnley River has been raised, and the effect has been that the floods have been more disastrous than before the rivers were altered. 12,804. (Mr. Harrison.) You would argue that there should be some control in order to prevent works being executed that should cause such a deposit 2– Decidedly. 12,805. (Chairman.) Do you consider that your firm has a prescriptive right to pass solid refuse and ashes into the river ?—We think so, and for this reason. There was a trial about it, and an attempt was made by some mill- owners down the valley to prevent the ashes going in. 12,806. When did the trial take place – Some years ago. An association tried the question; the party proved that he had been in the habit of putting in ashes for 20 years, and the judge ruled that he had acquired a right. 12,807. I believe it was stated at Halifax, that an association binding each other not to pass solid refuse into the river was formed there, and that they endea- voured to induce the manufacturers in Todmorden to adopt the same regulations, but you declined?—I do not remember that circumstance, but we rather gathered that they were determined to make us. 12,808. If you were compelled to provide some means for disposing of your ashes, ſ suppose it would cost your firm a considerable sum per annum ?—We should have to cart the ashes away to some place. 12,809. You would have to do as the Swansea copper smelters do, make a spoil bank –Yes, we should have to put them on to the land, or sell them, and it would of course be more expensive ; now we wheel them into the river, then we should have to pay for carting them away. 12,810. You would be at no greater disadvantage than many scores of manufacturers who formerly put their ashes into the river in such places as Wakefield, Bradford, and Halifax, but who now, by an arrange- ment of their own, do not do so, for they have them carted away at a cost sometimes of 18. a load –We should be like everybody else, if we had to conform. 12,811. Is there any chance of your sending the ashes away for ballast 2–I think not, because there are so many in this place; I do not think the railway could take them all. 12,812. (Mr. Harrison.) At the present time the solid refuse passes down the river, it receives a check at each weir, and is passed on or removed by the mill- owner, eventually towards Wakefield ; it is then dredged out by the Aire and Calder Canal Company ? —Yes, it passes away somewhere, and I think when the river becomes wider and less forcible in its career, it will deposit, that is the effect in all rivers. 12,813. (Chairman.) The fact that the bed of your river here is not raised very rapidly cannot be taken as a proof that the bed of the river is not raised in some parts of its course where its flow is slackened, and the fall is very much less —No. - 12,814. (Mr. Harrison.) You would admit I pre- sume that the passing of your ashes into the river here does cause expense to individual millowners below, and to the Aire and Calder Canal Company who have to dredge them out 2–I think it must do so, but I do not think that the ashes will cause so much RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 393 obstruction as the solid matter. The ashes are very light, and they will go away almost to sea in a flood; they go at once, but the solid matter, as Mr. Chambers said, which is taken out from foundations of houses will no doubt be deposited sooner. And then there is an immense amount of rubbish that comes down from the hills with every flood, because the waters gather on these moor lands, and rushing down the narrow rivu- lets bring all the rubbish in these channels down into the river, and that is the deposit which I think is most objected to. 12,815. (Chairman.) You know the character of the mountains and rivulets in this neighbourhood, would it be very expensive to make refuse traps by putting strong rubble walls across the ravines so as to check the rolling down of grit and stones to the valley below 2–It would be expensive, but I think it might be done. 12,816. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you aware that it has been done on the river Aire *—It has been done here. I have done it. There was a culvert just above this place, which was constantly getting filled up. The railway company and the trustees of the turnpike road agreed with me to repair the culvert, and to make a wreck-dam, as it is called, to prevent the culvert being filled with the rubbish. The wreck-dam is emptied out after the flood has passed away. 12,817. If the river was to be put under a Conser- vancy Board, I suppose it would form part of the general arrangements that they should look after that matter? —Yes. 12,818. Have you considered the desirability of a Conservancy Board for rivers situated as these are, where so many interests are concerned, and so many persons are liable to suffer by neglect —I think there ought to be some authority to deal with these matters. 12,819. Suppose, for example, that the manufac- turers here have the power to elect a Conservancy Board, which should have the general regulation of the entire drainage area of the rivers with a power of appeal to some government authority –I have not thought of the matter yet in that light. 12,820. Should the expense be provided for out of the county rate –-I think such a scheme would pay us here well, if we could so work it as to cure the evil ; individuals cannot do it. 12,821. Large as your firm is you could not, I pre- sume, put your own property into such a condition as to be absolutely secure, if other persons had power to do something contrary to your interests, which they might think was for their own advantage 2–No, we could not, and for this reason : If we were to put the river here on both sides into repair, and persons above us left the banks insecure, in a time of flood the waters would break through and come down upon us as they do now. 12,822. Although the common law is very powerful, you could not recover damages from a person who neglected his property —No. 12,823. And I assume that you do not consider it very satisfactory that one neighbour should be com- pelled to take proceedings against another?—No. 12,824. You would not like to be sued by some of TOD MORDEN. your neighbours down the river for polluting it with ashes 2–No. 12,825. You would rather be ruled by some general law, and you would prefer that all persons throughout the country should be treated as one and the same 2– Yes. 12,826. You would be willing to be put under some general system which had received careful considera- tion ?—Yes. 12,827. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you employ any water power 2–Yes. 12,828. Have you found it injured at all by the the condition of the river ?—No, not permanently : in one place the water-wheel gets stopped in a time of flood. 12,829. What arrangements have you made in the way of privy accommodation for your hands —The soil is all collected in boxes and is put on to a midden, we then cart it on to our own land. 12,830. You do not allow it to pass into the stream? —Never; we always keep it out because it answers our purpose for the land. 12,831. Do you dye at all 2–No ; I believe that 'Mr. Chambers has the only dyeworks here, except one other person who does a little. 12,832. Is there any refuse from your manufactories that passes into the river ?–Nothing except ashes. 12,833. (Chairman.) Every other form of waste is collected and disposed of?–Yes. 12,834. The only difficulty you would have would be in finding a place on which to store the ashes 2– Yes, - 12,835. Otherwise it would be merely the cost of carting them away ?—Yes. 12,836. (Mr. Harrison.) You have stated that you get some coal from a colliery in this neigbourhood – Yes. 12,837. According to the geological map before me, the coal field does not appear to extend within many miles of Todmorden –There is a large coal field all about Todmorden up the Burnley and Bacup valleys. 12,838. Is there anything further that you wish to add 2–I believe that the inhabitants of this district are willing to do whatever they can to prevent such disasters as have occurred. The local board some time ago had this subject brought to their notice, and they certainly were inclined to deal with it, but the board had no powers. The clerk advised them that they could not recover the rates levied for such a purpose. 12,839. You are a member of the local board 2– Yes. 12,840. Did you borrow any money under the Government grant of 1863?–No. 12,841. You maintained your own poor at that time —Yes. 12,842. Have you received since that time a sum of money from the Central Relief Committee ?—Yes; the district of Todmorden received about 5,000l. 12,843. You did not borrow any money for any public purpose –No. The witness withdrew. John FIELDEN, Esq., (Todmorden), examined. 12,844. (Chairman.) You are chairman of the local board —Yes. 12,845. Do you corroborate the evidence given by your brother ?—Generally I do. 12,846. Do you think it necessary that some better power should be exercised over the rivers of this country –Yes. 12,847. To prevent their obstruction by solids and general pollution ?—I think so. I think it would be very desirable if it could be carried out. 12,848. Do you think that if certain regulations were put in force, your firm would be put to any con- siderable annual expense to get rid of the ashes?— 17159.-2. Yes, but I suppose we should get over that. I do not know whether the question of the coal pits has been mentioned. The pollution generally commences there, I think. 12,849. At the coal mines I suppose they pass the water into the river ?—Yes. 12,850. It is ochrey —Yes. 12,851. Is there any dyeing or washing with that water, or do you wash your warps ?–No, we size them. 12,852. Are there any bleach works here 2–No. 12,853. Is water used to any extent for washing cotton –No. 3 D J. Fielden, Esq. 19 Nov. 1866. J. Fielden, Esq. 394 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. TOD MORDEN. J. Fielden, Esq. 19 Nov. 1866. -- Mr. P. Ormerod. 12,854. There is not much liability to injury from the ochrey character of the water ?–No, but the water is so much damaged by the refuse that comes out of the coal pits that we cannot use it for the boilers at our works. We have therefore made reser- voirs on the tops of the hills, and we collect water from the moors and use that instead of the river water. 12,855. Do you think that coal miners should be compelled to provide a place of deposit for the foul refuse which they pump out of their pits 3–Certainly. 12,856. And that there should be one law for all? —Yes. 12,857. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you known of any attempt being made to deposit that ochrey matter -- No, I have not heard of any expense being incurred for that purpose. We are anxious to get coal from the neighbourhood if we can, and perhaps, some general rate, or some commission, which should have power to take the necessary sum from the county rate, in order to supervise this district, and carry, out any improvements that might be deemed advisable would be better than individual action. 12,858. What is the population of the district –I think it is 14,000. - 12,859. Is any system of drainage carried out in Todmorden 2–A very bad one, I believe. 12,860. You have the old highway drains 7–No : there is a sewer carried down a certain district called York Street, but it is not a good one. We intend to call in a proper person—an engineer—to give us an estimate. 12,861. Have you any land adjoining the town that would be suitable for irrigation ?—Scarcely so. About two miles down I think we might get a place, but here it is rather difficult; any land that we have here we prize very highly ; I mean any level land. 12,862. Does the health of the inhabitants of Tod- morden come under your notice as chairman of the local board 2–We do not take cognizance of that, there are no reports sent in to us, as a board, about the health of the inhabitants. 12,863. Do you know what the health of the town is as compared with other towns —I think the mor- tality is not greater than in other towns. 12,864. Do you know what the death rate is 2–1 do not. - 12,865. Do you agree with the chairman as to the propriety of taxing the county for inspection and im- provement of the rivers ?—Yes. I do not see that there is any better plan. --- 12,866. Would you have any special taxation in the case of improvements made in towns like Todmorden and Halifax P-I think the funds would come perhaps most fairly out of the county rate. 12,867. If a river was pitched and walls built on each side, so as to confine the water for the special improvement of a town, do you think the whole county would be properly taxed for that ?—I think where there is a boundary taxation might be confined within that boundary; perhaps such as a borough, or the jurisdiction of local boards, but I have not sufficiently considered that question. 12,868. (Chairman.) That would be breaking every area up into sections; a river is co-extensive not only with one county but with several, it passes in and out, irrespective either of township, parish, or county boundaries 2–Yes. 12,869. Any damage done to that river is more or iess felt throughout the whole area, and any improve- ments affected in it would be more or less beneficial throughout the whole area?—Yes, but this is a ques- tion that one cannot answer very easily off-hand, it requires a good deal of consideration. 12,870. Supposing the legislature was of opinion that the manufacturers caused all the mischief and determined that they should pay all the costs —I should oppose that certainly. The manufacturers do not cause all the injury without conferring some benefit; they bring occupation at the same time. The witness withdrew. Mr. PETER ORMERod (Todmorden) examined. 12,871. (Chairman.) What business are you engaged in 2–I am a cotton spinner and manufacturer. We have one mill in the town, and another in Walsden, mile and a half from here. 12,872. How many hands do you employ —600 or 700 at the two mills. 12,873. Are the mills situated near the river ?– Yes, one is. Walsden Mill is over the river. 12,874. What weight of coal do you burn in a year? We burn nearly 100 tons a week. 12,875. What becomes of your ashes –In Wals- den we put them into the river, at the other place people want them generally. We take them on to some vacant land, and people take them away, the railway company and others. 12,876. Would it be a very great hardship to you if you were told that you should not put the ashes into the river again –If it were made a general thing we should of course give in to it—it would cer- tainly be attended with some expense. 12,877. But you think you ought to meet that do you not –Yes, in some shape, if it was made a general thing. 12,878. Have you suffered at all from the recent flood?—Not this time. 12,879. Have you suffered from any flood before ? —Yes, we did in 1859 at Walsden. 12,880. Do you know whether any millowners down the stream have suffered from the last flood —Not in Walsden. When we were injured in Walsden it was by some timber coming down and getting across the arch under our mill; the timber came from the railway and other places, and the water brought down a great quantity of timber. 12,881. Did you take any proceedings against the railway company 2–No. 12,882. I suppose you would rather suffer some damage than go to law –We had no very great damage to suffer, but we do not like to go to law; there was other timber as well as the railway com- pany's, trees that had been sent down the river from places higher up, and which had slipped down out of the hill sides. 12,883. Did you hear the evidence given by Mr. Chambers and by Messrs. John and Joshua Fielden —Yes. 12,884. Do you agree with the evidence which has been given generally with regard to the causes of the pollution of the river and the proposed remedies —Yes, generally I do. 12,885. Do you think it is necessary that there should be some restrictions enforced in order to pre- vent the pollution of rivers?—I believe it would be for the benefit of the country. 12,886. What do you do with the night-soil –It is carted away. 12,887. Does any of it go into the river ?—Yes, some of it does. 12,888. Is it difficult to keep it out 2–I do not think it would be very difficult, but the principal bulk of it is carted away. 12,889. Do you think you could cart it all away, if that was made the general rule?–Yes. 12,890. (Mr. Harrison.) Did you hear what was stated about taxing the county –Yes. 12,891. Is it not the case that a great part of the West Riding consists of moorland 2–Yes. RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 395 12,892. I presume that in manufacturing districts the largest ratepayers in the West Riding would be found 2–Unquestionably. 12,893. So that any taxation would fall by compari- son lightly upon the agricultural districts —Yes, I understand that there is a great extent of moorland in the northern part of the West Riding where there is very little manufacturing. The witness withdrew, Mr. Josiah LoRD (Todmorden) examined. 12,894. (Chairman.) You have been a machine- maker –Yes. 12,895. You are now out of business 2–Yes. I2,896. Where were your workshops situated 2– We commenced up in Walsden, the workshops are now in Canal Street, but I formerly worked for Messrs. Fielden Brothers. 12,897. How long can you recollect the valley of Todmorden 2–I can recollect it very well for the last 45 or probably 50 years. 12,898. Do you think that the river bed has been at all filled up since the commencement of that period — Yes; I could not agree with Mr. Joshua Fielden in his statement; I hope he will excuse me. The river is materially filled up, and I have been an observer of it on this account, that I used to be fond of fishing. 12,899. Will you name any of the bridges which have been filled up since you recollect —The Grin- ning Dog Bridge used to be the old highway to Rochdale, but that is, I believe, diverted, and the bed there is, I should say, 12 or 18 inches higher than it was formerly. I went to Messrs. Fielden in 1822. 12,900. What other bridge is there 2–Gandy Bridge, that is on the Burnley Road. I used to live there. 12,901. On what river is it 2–I forget whether it is the Cal or the Der. When they are united they are called the Calder. I know that the Burnley valley is three feet higher at the very least than it was since I first recollect it. 12,902. Did you ever see, since you have resided in Todmorden, anybody throw any solid refuse into this river ?–Yes, many hundreds of tons. I do not agree with Mr. Chambers. I think that all of it ought to be kept out. - 12,903. What sort of solid matter have you seen thrown in 2–Ashes, from great boulders to ashes out of the mill, as Mr. Chambers says. 12,904. Did not Mr. Chambers say that he would be quite content that everything should be kept out 2 —He did, but he said that ashes did not do so much harm as people think that they do. 12,905. Then there is a difference of opinion between ou ?—Exactly. 12,906. But Mr. Chambers said, “I will keep out “ all my refuse, if everybody else is made to do the “ same " ?–Unless we are all compelled to keep those things out, I think that one has as much right to put them in as another. 12,907. And I suppose that you would not like to be told by either of these upstart people down below that they would make you keep them out 2–I should not much mind it. 12,908. But you would fight against it, would you not ?—I should not myself, perhaps some of these large millowners would. A great amount of matter comes off the hill sides and is washed down into the river during flood time. 12,909. Do you not think that that could be kept out by traps ?—It could be kept out in a better but more expensive way. You might compel people to build a wall on each side of the river, and that would prevent a great amount coming down into the river. 12,910. I suppose that there would be no cost but the labour ; there are large quantities of stone there 2 —There are large quantities of stone there. There is another thing which has raised the bed of the river more than formerly. Formerly they used to throw the great boulders out of the watercourse excavations, and mend the turnpike road with them ; they do not do so now, because they find that that stone does not wear. 12,911. And if they broke it up would it not get down into the river as sand 2–Certainly some part of it would, but that is lighter. 12,912. It would alter its character from boulders to sand 2–Yes. 12,913. Did you ever see any road scrapings poured into the river ?–To a very great extent; they used to pour them all into the river, but now they use them for foundries—for moulding. 12,914. That material answers for that purpose – Yes, it is the best thing which they can get. In fact they fetch hundreds of tons down from this road on account of the qualtity of the stone from which it is made. 12,915. What stone is it made from ?–It is from Bearnshaw Tower. It is a very fine grit, called Galliard in this neighbourhood. It is not like the Gannister at Sheffield. 12,916. Did you hear the evidence of Messrs. Fielden 2–Yes, I heard the evidence of both of them. 12,917. As to the amount of pollution which goes into the river ?–Yes; not only is water turned in from the coal-pits, but there is the refuse from the coal-pits, and it comes down here and helps to fill up the brook. 12,918. I suppose that if they have a watercourse near enough they let their bank top wash away – Yes, and they get rid of it as soon as they can. 12,919. Do you think that that ought to be stopped P —Yes. 12,920. Both foul water and every form of solid refuse?—Yes. If they cannot make use of the solid refuse in any other way, let them take off the sod and cover it over again, and let the land produce two crops of grass, where it now only produces one. It will be an expense certainly, but it will improve the land. There is another cause of the watercourse being filled up, namely, the alterations which the railway company has made. That matter has been spoken to before by other persons. 12,921. If there had been a proper authority to look after the whole river, I assume that that authority would have looked after the railway company ?—Yes 12,922. And it might have been as powerful as the railway company —Yes. 12,923. And have kept them in order –Yes, the material all stops at that point called Patmos, the state of which is a very good criterion of the change in the river. The water used to be very deep there, in fact we could catch fish there very nearly at any time we liked, but the water now has very nearly gone away. The pet- ties opposite Patmos or Cobden are over the river. 12,924. Is there anything further which you wish to add –The main course of the Crow Carr Ings being flooded at the present time is the bursting of what we call Major Clough, that is a small rivulet which runs at right angles into the river. It is filled up; the millowners have put in some cloughs, and have blocked up the water, and it has washed the embankment away, and it has gone down to the basin at the Crow Carr Ings. That is the reason of that district being flooded so much as it is, in fact it was flooded yesterday morning a second time. 12,925. Any general authority which had power to regulate the river would see that it was not tam- pered with ?–Yes, and I think that they would see to it in another way; they would turn the stream in at another angle, so that the water would have a greater fall. 12,926. That would do as much good as is done now, and not quite so much harm 2–It would do more good and no harm. TOD MORDEN. Mr. P. Ormerod. 19 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. Lord. - 3 D 2 396 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. TOD MORDEN. Mr. J. Lord. 19 Nov. 1866. Mr.T.Priestley. Mr. E. Lord. 12,927. (Mr. Harrison.) Did you use engine power at your works?—Yes. - i2,928. How many boilers had you at work – When I was in the firm we had two. 12,929. Did you take any steps to prevent smoke when you worked those boilers ?–Not then ; they have done so since, and I am glad to say that they have accomplished the object. 12,930. How have they accomplished the object – By Jukes's furnace; it used to be the worst chimney in the neighbourhood, and now it is the best. 12,931. How long has Jukes's furnace been applied ? —From two to three months, and it is a perfect cure; you will see no smoke come up at all. . . . . . . 12,932. (Chairman.) Do any of the chimmies in this valley smoke at any time 2—Yes, very much; the smoke is so thick that you could cut it with a knife. 12,933. If smoke can be prevented by the means which you say have been adopted, do you think that it would be a very great hardship if every person was told that he must work his engines without creating smoke –My opinion is that it is a benefit and not a loss. 12,934. These people seem to have too much money and so they wash some of it up the chimney —Yes, to injure other people. 12,935. Is there anything else which you desire to state —No, except that I wish you would compel all persons to keep refuse out of the watercourse, and to keep the coals in the coal-hole or consume the smoke. The witness withdrew. Mir. THOMAS PRIESTLEY (Todmorden) examined. 12,936. (Chairman.) What business do you carry on 2–1 am a wholesale and retail draper. 12,937. Where are your premises situated –In Cheapside, Todmorden. - - - 12,938. Are your premises situated near the river ? —Yes, just across the road. - - - 12,939. Does the flooding of the river ever injure you, or interfere with you ?–It has done so. 12,940. Are you a member of the local board —No. 12,941. How long do you remember these streams in Todmorden –18 years; I came here in November 1848, 12,942. Do you think that they have been raised in their beds since you recollect them, by the pouring in of solid refuse 2–I think that there has been a gradual rising. - 13,943. By solids being thrown in 3–Yes. 12,944. Have you suffered any injury in your own business by the flooding of the river ?---Yes; 12,945. When 2–On the last big flood but one I must have suffered 100l. damage. The last big flood was on the 6th September 1861, and the flood to which I allude was in August 1859. . 12,946. Do you think that the flooding could have been prevented if the river had been in a proper con- dition ?—I think that if the walls had been strong enough and high enough the flooding would not have occurred. 12,947. Then if some authority had had the power to make the walls strong enough, and high enough, you need not have lost your 100l. —Just so. - 12,948. Have you seen any solid refuse at any time thrown into the river ?—Yes, hundreds of cartloads- stuff from the road, and everything : in fact the water- course here is a common receptacle for everything. 12,949. Have you privies or waterclosets on your premises?—Yes. 12,950. Do they drain into the river ?–No, they are emptied by hand, and the contents are taken on to the fields. 12,951. Have you heard the evidence which has been previously given –Yes. 12,952. Do you agree with it generally –Per- fectly so. 12,953. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you privies or water- closets —They are privies. 12,954. Detached from the house 2–Yes. 12,955. What means do you take to deodorize the facal matter?—When the box is full it is emptied, and the contents are taken on to the fields. 12,956. Do you use ashes with them 2–Occasion- ally. I have used chloride of lime. I have sprinkled it over. 12,957. Do you use the house ashes 2–No. 12,958. Do you find the privy at all a nuisance to your house –I do not know that we do. There are other dwellings which are nearer than ours, which per- haps may be a little inconvenienced, but I do not know. 12,959. You do not find it any inconvenience your- self —No. 12,960. How far is it from your house 2–Perhaps 10 or 15 yards. 12,961. (Chairman.) Is there anything further which you would wish to add –I do not know that there is. I entirely concur with the remark which Mr. Fielden has made, namely, that I wish that you would take a walk round and see the misery and desolation which has been occasioned by the last flood. The witness withdrew. Mr. Edward LoRD (Todmorden) examined. 12,962. (Chairman.) Are you a brother of Mr. Lord who has given evidence –Yes. - -- 12,963. Did you hear his evidence?—A portion of it. 12.964, Are you in business now –Yes. - 12,965. What amount of coal do you consume in a year —About 1,500 to 1,800 tons a year. * 12,966. What becomes of your ashes?–We have carried them away chiefly on to our own premises, and have raised the low ground about our own pre- mises with them. 12,967. Have you put any in the river *—Never, 12,968. Are you not near enough to the river to do so 2 No ; in fact we could not put our ashes into the river because we have no right of road to the river. 12,969. If you had been on the river I suppose that you would have let them, gº there the same as your neighbours ?—Most decidedly. - i2,970. Have you ever seen any foundation refuse carted into the river ?–Certainly. 12,971. A load or two —Many hundred loads; there is no question of it. - 12,972. Do you think that it is necessary for the good government of the river that there should be some new regulations with regard to passing in solids and keeping the banks and walls in order *-I do not attach the importance to it which some other persons do. 12,973. Have you seen the ill effect of the floods of the last week —Yes, and have felt it. 12,974. To what extent 2–1 should think from 150/. to 2008. 12,975. Do you think that it could have been pre- vented —Yes, I could have prevented it myself with 10!, if I had known beforehand that it was coming. 12,976. Do you think that with this knowledge you could protect yourself now from any future injury — Yes, so far as the watercourse is concerned, unless a greater flood than this one came. If the bank of the river on the Langfield side had been six inches higher between the houses opposite Mrs. Lord’s and Major Gurden's, we should not have had a flooding at all of the land in Langfield. 12,977. You think that that arrangement would have kept the flood off?—I am certain of it, because the flooding has been made simply by the running of the water over the bank and into the field, and the only drain for taking it off is so small that it could only take a very small portion of the water which came over, - RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 397 12,978. Do you think that the bed of the river has been gradually raised by refuse coming down from the mountains as well as by that which is thrown in 2– Yes, by what comes down from the mountains ; and I say that the debris thrown into this river is altogether insignificant and has very little to do with the rising of the river bed. 12,979. (Mr. Harrison.) You mean in this imme- diate neighbourhood 2–Yes. 12,980. (Chairman.) Do you think that it would be practicable to prevent refuse coming down from the mountains into the lower valley —No. 12,981. Do you not think that rubble walls and cross dams in those mountain rivulets would act as traps and would catch the solids as they rolled down —I think that they would to some extent, but that they would want more attention than they are worth. 12,982. Do you think that it is more costly to keep that refuse where it is, rather than take it out of the river when it has got in º-No ; but my impression is that the river should be made so as to clear out itself. 12,983. Have you no feeling for your neighbours down in the valley below P-Yes. 12,984. Whatever you have suffered they have suffered also, and they have suffered more than you have 2–If the same remedy was applied below as that which should be applied here to protect this district it would answer equally well; it only wants carrying forward. 12,985. Lower down to the sea —That is all. 12,986. Do you not think that it is necessary and cheaper to keep the solids out of the river ?—I do not see how you can do it. I think that the remedy is worse than the disease. 12,987. Do you mean keeping out the ashes –I attach no importance to putting in the ashes, it is so trivial a matter; it is only like a pinch of snuff. 12,988. Then you mean a remedy as regards refuse from the mountain sides 3–Yes, that is what I am alluding to. If the river was made sufficiently narrow, and if the foundations of the walls were put in so that the water could never wash the bottom of them, and if the banks were raised and made sufficiently strong, the water would wash its own way. 12,989. (Mr. Harrison.) Who do you propose should do that ?—I should think that it ought to be a national thing, and that the whole of the country ought to com- bine and make all rivers which are subject to these things right. 12,990. And keep up the banks —Yes. 12,991. That would be rather an expensive opera- tion ?—I believe that there has been more damage done in this very flood than the interest of the money that would be required for the outlay. 12,992. (Chairman.) You refer to what the manu- facturers on the river areas have suffered in the last week 2–Yes. 12,993. Besides the number of lives which have been lost 2–No lives have been lost in this neighbour- hood that I am aware of. 12,994. But in a great many of the towns below they have suffered severely in loss of life –Yes. 12,995. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you applied Jukes's apparatus to the boilers ?—Yes. 12,996. And with success 2–Yes. 12,997. Have you done anything besides applying this patent apparatus *—No ; so far as smoke prevent- ing is concerned we use simply Jukes's stove. 12,998. Do you think that there would be any hard- ship in preventing all people from making smoke 2– No ; I believe that it would be a benefit to them. 12,999. Do you believe that by that, or by other means, smoke might be prevented 2–Yes, I have no doubt of it. 13,000. It would be a great advantage, and would tend to the comfort and the health of the inhabitants of all these towns, if smoke were prevented 2–Yes. The witness withdrew. Mr. FREDERICK Rodi, EY (Todmorden) examined. 13,001. (Chairman.) What are you ?—Surveyor and inspector of nuisances to the local board. 13,002. How long have you been surveyor to the board —Nearly three years. 13,003. Have you charge of the streets and roads; the scavenging 2—The turnpike road is managed by the trustees. 13,004. What length of streets and highways have you under your charge –We have only about two miles repaired by the local board. The streets are nearly all private streets, repaired by the owners. 13,005. If you scrape your roads, what do you do with the refuse ; do you pass it into the river ?–No. 13,006. Have you ever thrown in any refuse from the roads 2—No, not since I have been here. 13,007. Have you carried out regulations for pre- venting soil from privies going in?—In some instances. 13,008. But some of it goes in yet?—Yes. 13,009. Have you served people with notices not to do it —No: it is mostly in the out districts that that is done. 13,010. Have any sewers been made since you have been surveyor to the board —Yes; only to a small extent ; a few sewers in our own roads, but not con- nected with any system of drainage. 13,011. The board have begun to talk of a system of drainage for the whole place, have they not *- They have been talking of it ever since I have been here. 13,012. But do you think that they are talking of it now more seriously —We only go slowly in Tod- morden. 13,013. Have you any rain gauge here 2–Only what Mr. Stansfield has, 13,014. What effect has this flood had upon any part of the town and property, so far as you know 2– About 300 dwelling houses have been flooded. 13,015. Have the inhabitants been seriously in- jured —Yes; they could not go out of their houses for 24 hours or 48 hours; they had the water 3 feet 6 inches deep, in some instances, in their living rooms. 13,016. Who will be at the cost of cleaning it out 2 —That will have to be done at the expense of the tenants. 13,017. Was there much sediment — sand rubbish –Yes, mud ; but no heavy material. 13,018. Do you think that that flood could have been kept out if there had been proper arrangements on the banks —No. 13,019. You think that the houses are too low 2– Yes; they are not fit to live in. 13,020. Before persons can build any houses here they have now to lay a plan before the local board 2– Yes. 13,021. And would the local board prevent houses being built in places of that sort –Yes, we do so now. 13,022. You would consider that that land should be raised before being built upon —Yes; the local board came 10 years too late as regards Todmorden. 13,023. Who are the landlords who own those houses, are they the owners of the mills?—No, they are small owners. 13,024. Some of them I suppose have suffered themselves 2–Just so. 13,025. Have they at all complained to you of the flooding 2–No, they never make any complaints of the flooding. 13,026. They think that it is of no use 2–Yes; I should recommend the board to buy those houses, or to take them in some way, and to fill the place up. 13,027. Do you think that the bed of the river has been raised, since you have known it, by refuse coming down 2–In 1864 I made some observations, and ascertained the depth of the debris in this part of the river. When the railway company diverted this por- tion, they paved the bottom ; it is inverted there, and I ascertained that the minimum depth of accumulated material was about 3 feet 6, I tried it in four or five and TODMORDEN. Mr. E. Lord. 19 Nov. 1866. Mr. F. Rodley. 3 D 3 398 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ToDMoRD EN. different places, and they are in about the same con- dition now, only that I believe that there will be a considerable deposit from the flood of last Friday. 13,028. Some people say that floods wash the river out. I suppose that you find that that is not so 2– No. 13,029. That if the refuse is washed away in one place it is accumulated in another ?–Yes, the flood has deposited many tons of stuff upon the Burnley turnpike road. 13,030. The Turnpike Trust will have to remove it 2–Yes. 13,031. If that wall had been strong enough, would that have been prevented 2–No, the bridges are not strong and big enough. At Gaudy Bridge several things were brought down by the flood, which could not be removed at the time. 13,032. Do you think that some general regulation is wanted for the river for the purpose of keeping the banks in order, and of keeping the bridge ways open 2 Yes. 13,033. Do you think that it would be a very costly thing to reduce the bed of the river so as to open out the bridge ways —I think that the bed of the river will constantly rise. 13,034. Except it is kept down 2–Yes. 13,035. Do you know Bacup —A little, not much. Mr. F. Rodley. 19 Nov. 1866. 13,036. Have you been there lately?—Yes. 13,037. There is a local board in Bacup 2–Yes. 13,038. And they have taken some of the Govern- ment money for their sewerage and local improve- ments?—Yes. 13,039. Have you seen in the papers that they have not suffered very much, and that they attribute that result to their having deepened and cleansed the river, by the money which they obtained from Government —I have not. 13,040. (Mr. Harrison.) Can you give us the death rate in this parish –No. 13,041. In the new buildings which are erected, do you make any provision as to the ash pits and privies 2 —Yes. 13,042. What provision do you make 2–We require a privy to be provided for every house, or every two houses at most, and each house to have 100 square feet of space. 13,043. Do you make any regulation as to the dis- tance at which the privy shall be from the house – We allow five feet as a clear space between the house and the privy. 13,044. (Chairman). You have byelaws?—Yes. 13,045. Can you put those byelaws in 2–Yes, they are framed upon the byelaws issued in London from the Local Government Office. The witness withdrew. The witness subsequently prepared and forwarded to the Commissioners a Transverse Section of the river Calder, at Burnley Road, Todmorden, taken after the flood of November 16th, 1866 — FLoop LiNE-Novº to "less. ^ | in sº TuRN pixel ROAD, sº I v. oRDINARY WATER LINE S ---- ----------------------------------- --------------- -*. Fiºrefº --- Ş Sºspºss N s - BED OF RIVER-1- FREDK Rool. EY 5URVEYOR –HORIZONTAL - SCALE 10 Ft 1. IN – -VERTICAL - Dº - 4 Dº Dº - Mr. J. B. Bamford. 13,046. (Chairman.) What are you ?—A surveyor. 13,047. Resident in Todmorden –Yes. 13,048. In general practice –In general practice. 13,049. How long have you resided in Todmorden P —12 years. 13,050. In your occupation have you made any levels, or cross sections, having reference to the river ? —I have not. 13,051. Have you made any observations with regard to the condition of the river, whether it is rising in its bed, or not *—I think that it is, but I have not levelled it. I have a few statistics which I have kept as to floods. 13,052, Will you put before the Commissioners any remarks or statistics which you have to offer as to flooding 2–On the 26th October 1855 there was a flood. 13,053. What height did it rise —I could not get out of the house at Patmos. Our house was 4 inches deep, but the houses below were 3 or 4 feet deep. 13,054. Did the poor people suffer very much in consequence?—Yes. 13,055. How many houses should you think were flooded?—I should think 40 or 50 at that particular lace. p 13,056. When was the next flood —On the 10th Mr. JAMES BYROM BAMFORD (Todmorden) examined. August 1856; that was deeper than the former one which I have mentioned. 13,057. How much did it flood your house then P- 7 inches. -- 13,058. And how much did it flood the property below 2–3 inches more than before. 13,059. How many houses did it flood then – About 50. Gandy Bridge burst at that time, and the river wall was washed down opposite the “Shoulder of Mutton "Inn, Toad Carr, and a part of a house at Gauxholme was washed down by the giving way of the arch there. 13,060. Were any lives lost 2–No. 13,061. Do you consider that the arches over the river are too small for these excessive floods?—Yes. 13,062. And you think that they should either be deepened or widened 2–Yes, I think that they should be deepened. 13,063. When was the next flood?—On the 7th December 1856; that was not very deep ; it was only two inches deep in my house, and the river wall was washed away opposite the “Shoulder of Mutton” at Toad Carr, 13,064. Do you think that a stronger wall would have stood —Yes, it has done so below. 1:IVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENGE. 399 13,065. How much do you think that a wall would have cost them 2–I cannot tell. - - 13,066. Do you know about what money damage there was from that flood —No, I cannot tell that. 13,067. But there was a considerable damage – No doubt of it. 13,068. Besides inconvenience —Yes. 13,069. When was the next flood 2–On the 15th August 1857. It was then 9 inches deep in my house. 13,070. That was higher than any of the others ?— Yes. 13,071. And of course all the houses were flooded so much higher again?—Yes. 13,072. What was that from ?–From the bursting of Pudsey dam and the watercourse wall. 13,073. And the bridges were inadequate again 2– Yes. 13,074. When was the next flood?—On the 7th August 1859. That was not from the Burnley valley, but the water was 2 feet 5% inches deep in the “Golden Lion'' Inn. 13,075. And of course it was over all these roads 2 —Yes. 13,076. Did it damage much property —Yes: Mr. Chambers and Mr. Priestly both sustained heavy loss. Messrs. Ormerod’s mili in Walsden was flooded by the arches lifting the shed floor. The river wall opposite the “White Lion” Inn was washed down, and all Waterloo was flooded. 13,077. How many houses were flooded there?— There was a flood all the way down here. 300 or 400 houses were flooded. - 13,078. There was a flood all the way down here, 300 or 400 houses were flooded. 13,079. All of which would suffer more or less?— Yes. 13,080. I suppose that the flooding of these base- ments would leave the houses miserably damp all the winter —Yes. The floods are generally in August, and it is May next year before the houses become anything like fit to live in. York Street cellars were flooded on the occasion to which I have just referred, the water was six and seven feet deep in the cellar livings. Mr. Hammerton’s cellar was flooded. Heb- den Bridge, Mytholmroyd and Bacup were all flooded by that particular flood and generally injury was done to them. 13,081. Have you anything further to state 2–On the 6th December 1860 the flood was 12 inches deep in our house. 13,082. And it flooded other properties just the same?—Yes; we kept the water out of the house for a time by boards at the doors, but the pressure of the water outside forced itself up the floor in a number of miniature, fountains. The river wall opposite Dr. Cockcroft's house broke down, and that caused the flood. On the 6th September 1861 the “Golden Lion” was 3 feet 8 inches deep in water. 13,083. That is the hotelin which we are stopping : -Yes. The wood yard was flooded. 13,084. And all the houses were affected 2–Yes; a wall in a cottage was washed down and there were 5 feet 6 inches of water in the rooms. 13,384a. And all the basements were flooded ?–Yes. 13,085. And a great deal of injury was done?—Yes. The waterside was flooded. Mr. Chambers’ mill in Salford was many feet deep. 13,086. Mr. Chambers at that time suffered injury Yes. All the Roomfield Lane cellars were flooded, Messrs. Fielden's wood bridges opposite the “White Lion", was damaged; Wadsworth Mill was nearly washed away, and the wall was burst there. Stones- wood Mill was five or six feet deep in water, Walsden Station was flooded, Ingham's Arch at Walsden burst. 13,087. It was blown up 2–Yes, and the whole of the gardens on the top of it were swept away. There was no flood in the Burnley Valley at that time. 13,088. When was the next flood 2–On the 7th May 1862 we were 12 inches deep with water in the kitchen. Gandy Bridge was lifted, it was blown up. 13,089. What was the next case ?–On the 11th of June 1863 Gandy Bridge burst again. 13,090. And was the district flooded ?–Yes, we were 12 inches deep in our house. On that day there was a local board meeting, and a deputation com- posed of Messrs. Shepherd, Mills, and others com- plained of Major Clough and asked the board to try to do something to prevent floods, and they partly promised. 13,091. What did the board say?—They said that they would see. 13,092. Have they seen yet?—They have not. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to Tuesday the 27th instant, at Keighley, The following letter was forwarded to the Commissioners by Mr. Blackburn, of Brighouse, on the Calder :- Brighouse, November 30, 1866. GENTLEMEN, As it seems somewhat probable you will not hold a sitting at this place, I have to ask you to excuse me writing to you upon the subject of your Commission. I am the owner of three cotton mills here, driven by steam power, two on the banks of the Calder, whence I draw my necessary water supply. The damage done to me by the recent flood, and in the locality generally, is somewhat serious, and I believe much of it might have been pre- vented had proper precautionary measures been applied. Since the flood I have had the river above my mills exa- mined, and at one spot is found a sand bank nearly halfway across, which is left bare when the river is low, while directly opposite it and in some other places the water is from six to 12 feet deep. This bank is the accumulation of refuse thrown into and left at the sides of the river by various parties, just because they find it a convenience. It is clear enough that the existence of these banks is, Hºly at all events, the cause of the water overflowing in reSIles. . I would therefore respectfully suggest that the bed of the river ought, in the first instance, to be cleared of every- thing it contains, so as to remove every obstruction to the flow of the water, and that inspectors should in future be appointed as “rivers inspectors,” who should be under governmental direction, and in no way subject to local influence. These inspectors ought in many cases to have power to compel recent incroachments on rivers to be removed, for in places like this, where mills and trade pre- mises are continually increasing, the becks and streams are frequently invaded for the purpose of obtaining a few yards of land; and to such an extent has this been done on the Clifton beck, that but for such contractions I believe the overflow would have been comparatively small (if any) to that which has just happened. I am, &c., THos. BLAckBURN, Cotton spinner, &c., Brighouse, Yorkshire. (Signed) To the Rivers Commissioners, &c. &c. &c. TODMORDEN. - Mr. J. B. Bamford. 19 Nov. 1866. 3 D 4 400 OF EVIDENCE. RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES KEIGHLEY. J. Craven, Esq. 27 Nov. 1866. Keighley, Tuesday, 27th November 1866. PRESENT : ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. JOHN THORNHILL HARRISON, Esq. | Professor Jon N THOMAS WAY. Jose PH CRAVEN, Esq. (Keighley), examined. 13,093. (Chairman.) Are you chairman of the local board of this district 2–1 am, and I have been so from the first, for eleven or twelve years. 13,094. What is the population of Keighley — Within the district extending a mile from this place I think at present it is about 20,000. 13,095. Has the population grown rapidly recently 2 —Yes. 13,096. Have manufactories been recently esta- blished here 2–Yes. 13,097. Of what class?—The original trade was worsted spinning and manufacturing, now the iron trade has been introduced, machine making, machinery for worsted spinning, power looms, washing machines, manufacture of tools, and foundries for castings. 13,098. Do any of those manufactories use water largely for the purposes of their trade 2–Some of them do to wash or for scouring the wool. 13,099. Are they situated on becks or tributaries of the river Aire?—Most of them are. 13,100. What becomes of the polluted water –It runs into the Worth and then into the Aire. 13,101. What do they do with their ashes 2–At present they cart them away somewhere. They used to put them into the beck; I daresay nearly every person at one time did so. 13,102. Do any of them do so now 2–I believe not. The clerk to the board will tell you that proceedings which the board have taken against millowners and those who have manufactories on the banks of the river stopped them throwing their ashes in. 13,103. You indicted them for it as a local board 2 —Yes. 13,104. Have you an inspector of nuisances in Keighley —Yes. 13,105. And a surveyor of highways *—Yes. 13,106. I suppose you instruct the inspector of nuisances to inform you if he finds any persons throw- ing in any rubbish or ashes 2–Yes. 13,107. Have you any power as a local board to improve the streams by deepening the beds or walling the channels?—I am afraid not. 13,108. Have you carried out any system of sewerage in Keighley —Yes. 13,109. What becomes of the sewage from the sewer’s outlet 2—Now we have constructed a main drain right through the town, and we are constructing another to take the sewage into the river Aire. 13,110. Are there any waterworks in Keighley — Yes. 13,111. Belonging to the board —Yes. 13,112. Where does the water come from ?–It rises on the pastures on the west side of the town. 13,113. Have you impounding reservoirs?—Yes. 13,114. Do you know what your works have cost 2 —The present works have cost about 12,000l. 13,115. Was that raised by a loan —-It was borrowed under an Act of Parliament. 13,116. It was not borrowed altogether under the powers of the Local Government Act —No, the waterworks belonged to a water works company, but now they belong to the local board; we purchased them. 13,117. Have you extended them —We shall apply this session for an Act to extend the waterworks. The local board have not enlarged their works since they purchased them. 13,118. From which of the streams does the water come 2—The gathering ground is on the west side of the town; we do not take any water out of any of the natural streams. 13,119. The water is obtained from that gathering ground —Yes, from springs. 13,120. Have you carried out much house drainage in connexion with the sewerage works –Yes, a pretty fair quantity. 13,121. Are there many waterclosets in the town 2 —Not so many. 13,122. This hotel and the better class of houses I suppose have waterclosets —Yes, there are a few. 13,123. How do the owners of the mills dispose of their refuse —They have not waterclosets, but they have privies, and the refuse is carted away. 13,124. It does not go into the river ?—I think not. 13,125. Then the watercloset refuse will go into the Aire if you complete the sewerage works -Yes, but the local board have discountenanced waterclosets. 13,126. What do they countenance?—Privies and ashpits. 13,127. Are any of those situated near to the cot- tages —Some of them are getting down too near. 13,128. Are they placed underneath bedrooms in some instances 2–I do not know that, but no doubt they are nearer than they ought to be. 13,129. Are there many unpaved streets in Keigh- ley —Yes; the town rose rather rapidly; people bought houses, and since the local board commenced, about 11 years since, we have done a great deal in paving and flagging many streets which had been entirely neglected before. 13,130. You can compel the owners of the land to pave the streets, can you not?—Yes. 13,131. The board have power to borrow money to enable them to do these things at a rate that shall not be oppressive to the present generation ?–We have some money belonging to the gasworks, and we have generally lent that for paving purposes, and much has been paid back again. 13,132. Do the gasworks belong to you ?–Yes, they do. 13,133. You possess the gasworks and the water- works –Yes, and the roads. 13,134. Do you know what amount of debt you have altogether as a local board —A very small debt. The waterworks were sold to us for 17,000l. as a local board ; the 6,000l. on the gasworks is all the debt there is on the local board. 13,135. Is the income sufficient to meet the interest of the money?—Yes. 13,136. Without a rate in aid –We have a general Pºe which is for the roads and the lighting of the to Wh. 13,137. (Mr. Harrison.) Has there been much injury done in Keighley by the floods?—Not a great deal I think. 13,138. As a local board, do you take any steps when new buildings are erected as to the position of the ashpits –Yes, the plans have to be presented to the board and sanctioned before the houses are built. 13,139. Does the board stipulate that the privies shall be at a given distance from the house ?—I do not know that exactly. 13,140. Do you take any steps to remedy the con- dition of those houses that have been built before ?— We have not done much in that way; we have it in contemplation to widen and improve some of the streets, and where there is a nuisance we try to remedy it ; we have been obliged to buy land and erect privies; a great many houses had none, and so we bought land and erected privies, and then apportioned the expense amongst those parties who used them. 13,141. Do you find that there is much improve- ment in the health of the people in those parts where the houses are built under your direction ?—I do not think that there is much visible alteration in that respect ; we have a pretty lealthy place. RIVERS COMMISSION:–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 401 13,142. What is your death rate –It is low. We have never had a single case of Asiatic cholera during all the time it has been in England. 13,143. (Professor Way.) Your intention, with regard to your future sewerage, is to discharge the sewage into the river ?—Yes. 13,144. You have not contemplated any mode of dealing with it otherwise —Yes; we have contem- plated having some places for it to settle in. 13,145. But not to apply it to agriculture ?–Yes; I mean a plan by which the sewage should be let to settle, and then the manure should be taken away. 13,146. Have you any knowledge of the methods which have been adopted for applying sewage to land in a liquid form —No ; we think that that matter must be considered at some time or other. 13,147. (Mr. Harrison.) How are these ashpits emptied from time to time. Does the local board take any steps to see that they are emptied ?—They give notice to parties when they see that the ashpits want emptying, and the parties themselves empty them. I believe they have to pay somebody to take the ashes away; at one time farmers would fetch them. 13,148. Does the refuse from the ashpits find its way into the river or beck —No ; I think it generally gets on to the land. 13,149. The only sewage matter that finds its way into the beck or river is that discharged from the water- closets by your sewerage system —Yes. The witness withdrew. MR. Is AAC Booth 13,150. (Chairman.) Are you engineer to the local board of Keighley —Yes, 13,151. Consulting engineer P – Yes, consulting as well as acting engineer. 13,152. Are you also engineer to the local board of Halifax —No ; but I act occasionally for them. 13,153. How long have you been resident in Keigh- ley —I am a native of Keighley, but I am not a resident at the present time, nor have I been since 1851, when I went to Halifax, and I have continued to live there. 13,154. How long do you remember Keighley?— 30 years and more. - 13,155. In what condition were the streams and tributaries to the river Aire when you first knew them as compared with what they are now 2–The condition of North Beck particularly, some 30 years ago was very different from what it is now in respect both of purity of water and of the amount of solid refuse placed in the bed. 13,156. Has the bed of that beck been at all raised by solid refuse thrown into it –It has risen very much within my own recollection ; not less than 4 or 5 feet in vertical height. 13,157. What effect has that had on the adjoining land, is the valley a ravine —Yes, it is ; it has had this effect, that all the drains and the sewers emptying themselves into a portion of the North Beck, and some of those emptying themselves into the Worth, have actually become choked up. 13,158. The beck has choked the mouth of the sewers up 2–Yes, in several cases the bed of the beck is up to the top of the sewers, 13,159. Is much of that refuse washed down by the floods from the mountains 2–No doubt some portion of it comes from the natural operation of the floods ; but the greater part of the evil is attributable to placing solid matter in the course of the beck. 13,160. What class of solid refuse has been put in within your knowledge —Engine ashes (but I do not think it is done now), and foundation material. 13,161. And road scrapings —Yes; I have seen them placed in the beck many times. 13,162. Where the highways have been adjacent : —Yes. 13,163. Has the beck altered its course by washing its banks away ?–No, and for this reason, that its course through the town is circumscribed, by buildings erected on it, and also by the precipitous nature of its banks. 13,164. Has the beck been arched over in any parts of the town by persons for their own purposes – There is one instance of that kind. 13,165. Is there sufficient waterway under that arch to let the floods pass —Yes; I believe it has always been equal to discharge the flood water. 13,166. Has there been any injurious flooding in the town recently —Yes, on the North Beck there is one foot bridge near to Cabbage which has been destroyed. 13,167. But there has been no very serious injury —Not in the town I believe. 17159.-2. (Halifax) examined. 13,168. Did you design the present system of main sewers ?—Yes; I did. 13,169. Have any of the outlets of the sewers been impeded by the bed of the river having been raised since you designed them —No, the system itself is not yet completed. The proposed outlet of the main sewer was directed into the river there (pointing to a plan) below that weir. In connexion with this sub- ject the question of dealing with the sewage matter incidentally came up, and negotiations were entered into with the view of erecting at this outlet works, either to filter the sewage, or let it settle, and let the liquid matter pass away. 13,170. Is that land there (pointing to the plan), ever underflood from the joint action of the two rivers? —I have seen all this (pointing to the plan) covered with water in times of flood, and this road (pointing to the same) rendered nearly impassable; that was many years ago, and I believe it has been so recently; but at that time this weir (pointing to the same) was in existence, and impeded the free action of the water in the course of the river, and sent the water over its banks. That weir has been taken down in con- junction with other works which have been executed by the Airedale Drainage Commissioners, and the water which formerly remained in the higher parts of the river now passes away without flooding the land here; but it goes down in a large volume, and the consequence is that the land below is flooded. 13,171. Has this new road (pointing to the plan) been made –No, that was a projected road, and negociations were entered into, but they went off on a question of terms. 12,172. What is the sectional diameter of this sewer (pointing to the plan) —4 feet. 13,173. Half of it is in the ground and half out 2– Yes; in some places it is half in the ground and in other places entirely. At several points it is totaly buried, and in others there is a little embankment. 13,174. What is the estimate for the entire sewerage as laid out by you ?—I think it is about 2,000l. 13,175. That would be merely for that outlet sewer —Yes. It begins from the railway crossing where the new sewer constructed by the Duke of Devonshire is, and ends down at the outlet. 13,176. Where is the existing outlet 2—The outlets for the sewage of the town are in various places. There are several, both into the North Beck and into the Worth, but there is a district here (pointing to the plan), called Eastwood Row, which has its outlet at exactly the place where the new sewer was designed to have its outlet. But the old drain was mainly an open ditch, and at this point (pointing to the plan) there were ponds erected to collect the solid matter, which has been taken out from time to time, and the refuse flowed out by the old drain and found its way down here (eaplaining). 13,177. Has this tributary, the Worth, any consi- derable rise upon the portion that we see upon this map *—Some. 13,178. I assume that it rises more rapidly than the main stream into which it goes —Yes; the total 3 E KEIGHLEY. J.Craven, Esq. 27 Nov. 1866. Mr. I. Booth. 402 RIVERS COMMISSION: —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, REIGHLEY. Mr. M. Booth. ----- 27 Nov. 1866. rise of the Worth from its junction with the Aire at Stock Bridge to its source, beyond a place called Ponden, on the western side of the boundary between Lancashire and Yorkshire, is 775 feet, and the total length of the stream is 9 miles I furlong and 5 chains. The configuration of the country almost suggests that the river Worth and the North Beck should form two separate questions for consideration, inasmuch as the river Worth, above its junction with the North Beck, passes through a district which may be called an agricultural district ; there is no town upon it, although there are many mills. Upon the North Beck there is the town of Keighley, and a totally different state of things. 13,179. Do you know the dry weather flow of the river Worth at Keighley —Not from actual gaugings; but it is tolerably low, and it is impeded by all the weirs upon it, which are in great numbers. Upon the river Worth, from its junction with the river Aire along its whole course, there are about 22 mills. 13,180. What kind of mills are they –They are mills which are almost exclusively confined to the special business of the locality, worsted manufactories and spinning mills. There is here and there an exceptional case, but not of any moment. 13,181. Do those mills use the water, and more or less pollute it —Many of them do use water power. 13,182. Do they use the water for washing more or less, and pollute it before passing it back into the stream 2–Yes, it is polluted, no doubt, to the extent that it is used. But until the Worth gets down to its junction with the North Beck the amount of that pollution is not so very great, though much worse than I can remember it to have been formerly. 13,183. Do any of those mills use steam power pressure with their water power —Nearly all of them. 13,184. What do they do with their ashes 2–I cannot say exactly. Formerly they used to put their ashes into the river, and latterly upon the North Beck I have seen ashes deposited. 13,185. Have you seen ashes on the North Beck within the town of Keighley —Yes. 13,186. But the North Beck has nothing like the extent of the Worth 2–No, it has not. The North Beck is 2 miles and 7 furlongs in length from its junc- tion with the Worth to a place called Slippery Ford, where the feeders branch out in three or four direc- tions. 13,187. What fall has the North Beck —The fall from the source of the North Beck to its outlet into the Worth is about 500 feet. 13,188. Have you any tabulated statement as to the mills that you can put in 2–No, I have not ; but I have the particulars here which I can give you. First as to the Worth : Upon the banks of that stream there are 18 mills between Stockbridge and Ponden, which is the highest point where there is a mill upon the stream. 13,189. What fall is there between those two points 2–Between Ponden and Stockbridge there would be about 500 feet. 13,190. Which would be available between those points 2–Yes. Besides these 18 mills on the Worth, there are some four others at some distance from the stream, but which drain into the stream, making 22 in all upon the Worth proper. One of the tributaries of that stream is called Sladen Beck; upon it there is one mill or two mills, I am not sure which. Then there is another tributary called Bridgehouse Beck, and there are 17 mills upon it or draining into it, so that in reality the river Worth, above its junction with North Beck, and its tributaries, receive the drainage of 40 mills. 13,191. I suppose you do not know either what power the mills have or what number of hands are employed 2–No, I do not. 13,192. Are any of them new mills recently erected 2–Yes, there is one or two, but they are mostly old mills. They have become enlarged as the requirements of trade have necessitated enlargement. 13,193. Do you consider that the whole of the stream is so occupied now by mills that any great addition in number is not probable, although enlarge- ment may take place?—No, I do not think so. There is yet an unappropriated fall upon that stream to a considerable extent. 13,194. Upon which additional mills may be erected 2–Yes, taking the water power from the Worth. Then the North Beck, from its junction at Keighley to Goose Eye, the highest point where any mill exists, has 13 mills upon it, and upon one of its tributaries, called Newsholme Beck, there are three mills. 13,195. When speaking of mills, I suppose in all cases you mean manufactories, and not corn mills 2– Yes; there is one corn mill, but I have not made any distinction. 13,196. It may be as well to distinguish between corn mills and manufacturing mills. I assume that the corn mills are not so liable to pollute streams as manufacturing mills —Just so ; there are 12 manu- facturing mills or manufacturing premises and 1 corn mill. 13,197. Are there any corn mills on the river Worth 2–Yes; there are two small corn mills. On the Newsholme Beck, a tributary of the North Beck, there are three mills, one is a worsted mill, another is a bobbin mill, and the third is used for some special purpose, for making cotton bands. 13,198. None of those, I suppose, would materially pollute the stream 2–No ; the bobbin mill would not. There is a change going on there just now ; I believe they will make the bobbin mill into a worsted manu- facturing mill. There is another mill distant from the stream making a total of 17 upon it. 13,199. What is the number of mills that you have enumerated 2–57, on both streams, large and small. Besides those there is a number of iron foundries, the number of which I cannot give you, in the town itself, and there are some which adjoin upon the North Beck particularly, but the others are situated in the town, and about half of them drain either into the North Beck or into the Worth. 13,200. Is any part of the North Beck or of the Worth, as they pass into or through the town, pitched in an invert P-I believe not. 13,201. Some of the streams, I believe, are arched over ?–In one case the North Beck is covered over by a spindle manufactory, or a machine shop. 13,202. Do you know what opinion prevails here with regard to the ownership of the bed of the beck or stream, is it that the adjoining owner claims to the centre of the stream P-The custom here differs from that in other places, with the exception of the Aire, where the owner of the land on each side claims to the centre of the stream ; in all other streams generally the whole bed belongs to the owner on one side. 13,203. The boundary of an estate in many instances, is defined by a fence on one side of the stream, leaving a strip of land between the line of the stream and the fence 2–Yes. 13,204. Is it the law that a ditch always belongs to the field in which it is 2–No ; that does not prevail generally here. I have known some instances in this neighbourhood where the centre of the fence itself is the actual boundary. I have known other cases where 18 inches from the roots is the boundary, and where 36 and where 40 inches from the roots is the boundary. 13,205. In some places it is the law that a ditch belongs to the field in which it is ?–Yes. 13,206. I suppose these becks in some instances follow that law ; they are supposed to belong to one side or the other, where they form the boundary of one portion of an estate —Yes; for instance, here (point- ing to the Ordnance map) it is so. 13,207. As these streams are continually altering their course, does the boundary remain P-Yes; I imagine what happens is this: the actual boundary be- tween two properties has been fixed to be one side of the stream, then the owner of the land on the opposite RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 403 side, in order to make his boundary more definite than before, has erected a fence on the edge of the stream; then in time the stream has altered its course, and so left those little strips of land between the fence and the edge of the stream. 13,208. (Mr. Harrison.) How is the ownership decided in case the stream encroaches upon the fence 2 —I have known several instances of that sort, where an encroachment has taken place, but the bank has been repaired at once. 13,209. And the boundary restored to its old limit 2 —Yes. 13,210. The stream has been confined to its old limit 2–Not much attention has been given to that: where a fence has been knocked down by the stream, the owner has immediately repaired it, and restored his own boundary to its former condition ; if he does not do so he loses his land. 13,211. (Chairman.) Can you give us any details as to the existing water supply, and what you propose doing for the future ?—I can. The present water supply is derived mainly from springs, of which I have here the details. 13,212. What is the subsoil from which the supply is obtained 2–This district is in the very heart of the millstone grit. Within the valley there is a very large depth of alluvial deposit, in the shape of gravel, but the subjacent rock is millstone grit, and that is found in the higher portions of the town. Quick sands also exist in the lower portions, and they have occa- sioned great trouble in the erection of works at times. The present waterworks consist of a reservoir at Calversike Hill, containing 1,550,000 gallons of water. I cannot give you the area or the greatest depth of the embankment. This (pointing to the map) is the reservoir which has been made. 13,213. It is a service reservoir, is it not?–Yes; there are several cisterns about the town into which particular springs have been collected from time to time. There is one called the Blind Lane cistern, which is just below this reservoir (pointing to the map). There are two cisterns on the other side of the town which are called the Park Wood cisterns; an- other at a place called Seed Hill; another reservoir near to Castle Mill for the purpose of collecting the water from this stream (pointing to the same) and filtering it and bringing it into the cistern at Seed Hill, and also for giving out a direct supply. There is another cistern in Highfield Lane in the north part of the town; and there is a further reservoir, the largest which has been made by the old waterworks company, called the Highfield reservoir. This reservoir (pointing to the same) I am proposing to make into a service reservoir for the intended scheme. 13,214. What elevation is that above the ordinary level of Keighley —About 550 feet above the sea level, and it has at least 250 feet of fall to the centre of the town. 13,215. What number of springs were available to the old waterworks company, or what volume of water daily could they supply?—There has been no specific record kept of the flow of most of those springs, but it was found that they yielded upon one occasion on the 13th June 1856, 61,300 gallons in a day, and on the 6th August 15,360 gallons. There are other springs and streams, the water of which goes into these reservoirs, and the old company appro. priated them by sufferance; they were not authorized by their Act; they yield a considerably larger quantity, so that in fact the total daily flow of the springs and streams collected by sufferance is, in winter, 100,260 gallons, and in summer 64,650 gallons; the authorized quantity of the one source is 36,448 gallons, and of the other 12,470 gallons, the mean of which is 24,455 gallons. 13,216. What right have the board to take the larger quantity of 100,260 gallons?—They have taken some of it by agreement, and the rest at will ; in point of fact they use it by sufferance; the average flow would be 106,910 gallons a day. 13,217. Did the board know what volume of water they would obtain at the time they purchased these works?—I presume they did, but I do not know that of my own knowledge. - 13,218. Do you know what the estimated income was at the time they purchased the works —I do not. 13,219. What proposed works have you in contem- plation to extend this supply 2–The proposed works are here (pointing them out on the map). 13,220. (Mr. Harrison.) The present supply is about five gallons a day per head of the population ?— Yes; the works for the increased supply consist of storage reservoirs at a place called Butler Clough, and Slippery Ford, and near to the village of Newsholme. The compensation reservoirs are to be one at Slippery Ford, and the other on the Newsholme stream. This portion of the scheme relating to the valley of the Worth (pointing to the map) has been abandoned for the present, the board considering that this (pointing to the map) would supply all the wants for the present population. 13,221. Those two (pointing to the map) are both abandoned, are they –Yes. 13,222. What is the subsoil at this point (pointing to the map) 2–Millstone grit with intervening shales; the ground is remarkably firm, although it varies. 13,223. Standing almost vertically –Yes. 13,224. What volume of water do you propose to impound and make available under the proposed plans ? —I am proposing to bring to the town 500,000 gallons per day, exclusively from the North Beck valley, but when the Newsholme scheme is carried out that will increase that volume to 750,000 gallons per day. 13,225. What compensation do you give for that volume 2—The exact amount is not yet determined. We shall go to Parliament next session. I shall cal- culate the available rainfall of the district, and make proper deductions for evaporation and otherwise, and then bring as near as I can two-thirds of the available rainfall to the town, and give off one-third as compen- sation to the mill owners. 13,226. What is the rainfall here 2–My gauges have been only in since March, but I think the maximum fall is something like 42 inches, and the minimum about 33 or 30 inches. 13,227. What is the acreage that you rely upon for the rainfall 2–I have hardly arrived at that yet in consequence of the gaugings not being complete. 13,228. Are no gaugings kept in this district — No ; there has been one, but I find that it is not of a reliable character ; a man collects the rainfall into a little pot, and measures it in a very rude way. 13,229. Have not the Canal Company kept any gaugings?—I believe not. 13,230. But the neighbouring towns of Bradford and Halifax keep gaugings —Yes, at Halifax they do, which is on the southern slope of the hills; we get something like 40 inches. 13,231. What has been the fall during these last wet days which caused the flood?—I do not know, but I believe it to have been 2% inches in about 30 hours on Thursday and Friday, the 15th and 16th instant. 13,232. Have you ascertained that from gaugings? —Not from gaugings in this district ; I have not got the register in. 13,233. What is the estimate for these proposed works?—The estimate, subject to some reservation as to contingencies, is something like 16,500l. ; but I quite expect that the works will cost 20,000l. or 25,000l. for 750,000 gallons a day. 13,234. What will be the area of the new reservoir, of the larger one —About 10 acres; that is the Slip- pery Ford reservoir. 13,235. What will be the greatest depth of the bank? —63 feet. 13,236. What will be the volume of water im- pounded ?–About 7,000,000 cubic feet. 13,237. That would be about 46,000,000 of gallons? —Yes, or 7,000,000 of cubic feet. 13,238. There are two reservoirs here (pointing to the map) —Yes; this (pointing to the map) is the second bank. - KEIGHLEY. Mr. I. Booth. 27 Nov. 1866. -- 3 E 2 404 RIVERS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. KEIGHLEY. Mr. I. Booth. 27 Nov. 1866. 13,239. The lower one has an area of 10 acres and the upper one about four acres, I believe P-Yes. 13,240. What is the greatest depth of the bank of the smaller one?—48 feet. 13,241. What is its cubical capacity ?—About 14,330,000 gallons. 13,242. Are there any other points that you wish to speak to?—Thinking that it might be useful I have taken out the length of these streams with their fall. The river Worth, from its junction with the Aire to its source, is 9 miles 1 furlong and 5 chains in length. 13,243. Is that as the crow flies or measured along the sinuosities of the river ?—Yes, measured along the sinuosities of the stream. 13,244. Having a certain number of mills upon it * —Yes, having 40 mills and having a fall of 775 feet, and a draining area of 14,100 statute acres. The North Beck with its tributary, the Newsholme Beck, measured along the sinuosities of the river, is three miles in length, and has a drainage area of 5,100 acres; the number of mills upon it are 17, giving a total drainage area of the river Worth and its trbutaries of 19,200 statute acres. 13,245. Is the area that you have given confined to the North Beck, or does it include the entire area of the two systems of streams ?—Yes; it includes the entire area of the two systems of streams. 13,246. Is it not confined to the length you have given 2–No, it is not. The drainage area of the Slippery Ford reservoir is 1,874 acres, of which 500 are already appropriated by the millowners’ reser- VOII". 13,247. What is that reservoir called 2–It is called the reservoir on Keighley Moor. I call it the mill owners’ reservoir ; it has not a distinct name. 13,248. The millowners send down a certain volume every day into the stream for their own purposes, I suppose 2–Yes, they do. That reservoir has recently been leased by the millowners from the Duke of Devonshire, who, I believe, constructed it, and now it is proposed to appropriate altogether a drainage area of 2,136 acres for the new works, leaving 2,964 acres which we do not interfere with. 13,249. Are you to give compensation out of those 2,964 acres, or provide it out of the remaining 2,136 acres?—We must give it out of the 2,136 acres. 13,250. Do you know what volume of water you are likely to impound upon the 2,136 acres —I can- not give you that now ; the gaugings have only been in existence for a short time, and the weather has been, I believe, very wet, so that it is hardly fair to take the present gaugings. 13,251. Can you safely calculate upon 700,000 gallons a day, plus the compensation ?—Yes. 13,252. Out of the storage which you have named to us?–Yes. There is other information which perhaps I may be allowed to give. The total area of the township and parish of Keighley is 10,132 acres 1 rood and 26 perches; the district in which the local board exercises its jurisdiction contains but 1,800 statute acres of that area, leaving 8,332 acres 1 rood and 26 perches as the area of another local board, called the township and parish of Keighley local government board. 13,253. By the proposed scheme is it intended to provide water for both the boards jointly, or for Keighley proper only?–Power is sought to be obtained to supply all these districts below the level of the works with water, together with portions of other districts situated within the parish of Bingley. I would add that the uncultivated ground in this district is about 2,300 acres. 13,254. In the larger area 2–Yes, so that there are about 6,032 acres 1 rood and 26 perches of cultivated ground in the township and parish. 13,255. What is the separate population of the two places, and the entire population ?—The population of Keighley proper, I understand, is about 20,000. 13,256. What is the outside population ?—That is about 3,500. 13,257. Then you have a population of 23,500 to provide for 2–Yes, and more than that, because we seek power to provide water to supply a portion of the Bingley district, which is a thickly inhabited part. 13,258. Would you say 30,000 in all?–Yes, about that. It is not very easy to ascertain the population of the towns here. According to the last census, not- withstanding the large increase in the town, the amount of the population has actually been at a standstill. 13,259. You are contemplating, if you take the population at 30,000, and the volume of water at 700,000 gallons, a supply of a little over 23 gallons per head for each person, for domestic and trade purposes —Yes. 13,260. Independently of the volume that you will give in compensation ?—Yes. 13,261. You stated that the bed of the river here had been raised 3 or 4 feet, and you also said you re- member that in consequence of the execution of works above, and the removal of a weir, the river Aire below its junction with the Worth was more flooded than it used to be. Has the bed of the river Aire been raised below the junction of the Worth –Yes; at one point considerable works have been executed by the owners of property to restrain the current within better limits. 13,262. Is that below the junction of the Worth 2– Yes ; and even there there is an immense accumu- lation of solid matter now, and the effect, as I said before, has been that the lands below the junction of the Worth down near to Castlefield are very much more flooded than they used to be (I mean compared with the extent to which they used to be flooded). I knew that from observations I have taken as to the extent of those floods. 13,263. Have you observed that there are greater floods arising from the same amount of rainfall?— Yes. 13,264. A flood from a certain amount of rainfall now floods the land below the junction of the Worth more than it used to do?—Yes, I have no doubt of it. 13,265. Does the area of the Worth lie upon the millstone grit –Yes, entirely. 13,266. Is there any land below the junction of the Worth with the river Aire that would be suitable for the application of the sewage of Keighley –Assuming that all land is suitable for the application of liquid sewage as manure, there is no doubt of the land referred to being available, only one important diffi- culty is that the outfall of the sewer is too low to allow of the sewage being so used without pumping. 13,267. There is a considerable fall in the valley of the Aire, is there not *—Yes. 13,268. So that you might soon bring the sewage to the surface –Yes, by going further down the valley. 13,269. Is there any coal marked in any portion of the area?–Yes, but not in any portion of the drainage area of the Worth, there have been slight attempts made in different portions of the district, particularly above Oxenhope, and some coal workings are carried on there at the present time. 13,270. There are some old coal pits marked on this map, are they old shafts in the millstone grit or through the coal measures? — Through the coal measures in many instances; there is an old coal shaft also there (pointing to the map) the millstone grit con- tains a great number of coal bands. 13,271. Thin worthless bands 2—Yes. 13,272. Are those coal pits in the millstone grit in those old thin beds 2—They are in the millstone grit. Just at the very edge of the drainage area is the out- crop of the Halifax beds, the lowest in the series; but there is one singular feature in this district (pointing to the map) that under the hill forming the northern side of the valley of the Aire there is one of these coal bands which, unlike the others that are seldom more than 9 inches thick, is about 16 or 18 inches in thich- ness, and that bed has been worked from time to time with interruptions as long as I can remember, but the outcrop of the coal measures proper extends beyond the drainage area. 13,273. Only small thin bands belong to the mill- stone grit –Yes. 13,274. (Professor Way.) Water for the district is RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 406 generally obtained from the millstone grit is it not * —Yes. 13,275. And is termed good soft water I believe? —It is remarkably pure good water. 13,276. Of course it forms the body of the two streams, the North Beck and the Worth ?–Yes. 13,277. There is not any large population is there, except the mill population above Keighley *—Yes; there is a large population above Keighley. - - 13,278. Are there any towns?–Yes, there is the town of Howarth; it is not a large town, but it is a very old town. - 13,279. In the absence of mill refuse, would the Worth have been your entire source for a supply of water; –No ; except as a last resort, it is so far off; it is at too great a distance. - - 13,280. At the present time you catch the water in gathering grounds at the upper parts of the district? —Yes. 13,281. If those streams were restored to anything like a moderate state of purity would they be useful for general purposes, apart from drinking purposes? —Yes. I am quite clear about that, and supposing the streams were relieved from the polluted matter which finds its way into them, there is no doubt that the water would be available for other than drinking purposes. 13,282. Supposing you had arranged for a supply of pure water for domestic purposes from a distance, it would still be an advantage to Keighley that the water flowing through it by the North Beck should be of a purer character —Yes; there is no question about it. The difference in the effect between a pure and an impure stream must be considerable under any circumstances. I can give you the lengths of the other tributaries. Bridgehouse Beck from its junction with the river Worth at Vale Mill to Oxenhope Mill is 1 miles. The Moorhouse Beck branch of the stream, from Oxenhope Mill to its source at Bodkin Bridge, is 1 mile and 1 furlong. The Leeming water branch of the stream is 1 mile and 1 furlong in length; those are all within the drainage area. 13,283. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you examined the river Aire above the junction of the Worth of late ears 2–Yes, I have. 13,284. Have the works which have been carried out on that part of the river been beneficial to it — No doubt the land immediately above Kilderwick always used to be flooded with a very small rainfall indeed; it was hardly capable of being profitably used for agricultural purposes, but when a part of those new works were completed things began to change immediately, and that land now is in a very good condition. 13,285. (Chairman.) Who were the engineers who constructed those works –Messrs. Martin and Fen- wick of Leeds. 13,286. (Mr. Harrison.) You think that the works have been beneficial to the land adjoining, but you believe that they have been injurious to the land below the junction of the Worth?—I am quite clear about that. I attributed the difference in the state of the river below Stockbridge to the fact of the water, which, under the old system, was impounded in the higher parts of the valley, finding its way down more rapidly. 13,287. It floods the land more, it brings down the débris more rapidly, and raises the bed of the river ? —Yes; I do not mean that the bed of the river has been raised from that source, but the waters of the river have overflowed its banks more frequently, and to a greater extent than before. 13,288. You would, I suppose, argue from that, that works of that kind should be carried out throughout the whole length of the river ?—I am of that opinion most strongly. I find that every day's experience confirms it. 13,289. That would lead to the necessity of placing a river like the Aire under some general control 2– Yes; it would. 13,290. (Chairman.) You mean that works par- tially carried out may benefit the individuals carrying them out to the injury of their neighbours below them 2–Exactly so. 13,291. I assume you also mean that the filling of any stream by any process, such as throwing in refuse of any kind, may injure the stream not only at that point, but for a considerable distance below, or as far as the floods can carry down the solids 2—Yes; that is the actual state of things. 13,292. Has there been a great addition to the mill power upon the streams in this part of Yorkshire since you can remember 2–Yes, there has been a very large increase in the power, almost every mill in the district since I can remember has been considerably enlarged, that enlargement carrying with it a corre- sponding increase in the power employed. 13,293. Is there a considerable amount of pollution passed from Keighley into the Aire 2–Yes; some years ago there was a very great amount, but there is not quite so much now. 13,294. From dyewashing I mean, and wool scour- ing —There are no dyeworks here of any moment, it would be principally from wool washing. The witness withdrew. WILLIAM FERRAND, Esq. (St. Ives) further examined. 13,295. (Chairman.) You reside near this place —I reside at St. Ives, a mile from Bingley. 13,296. What distance is Bingley from Keighley Four miles by the road. 13,297. I believe you wish to add something to the evidence you gave at Leeds 2—Yes; first of all I wish to mention that we have had considerable damage done by the late flood, I mean my tenants and myself, on a stream called the Harden Beck. 13,298. Is that a tributary of the river Aire?— Yes; we believe that that damage has been consider- ably increased by the manner in which the flood water has been let out of the Bradford reservoirs. You will remember that when you were there you advised that a by-wash should be made to the Doe Park reservoir, but no by-wash has been made. I wish to point out to the Commission the system which has been pursued by the men who have the care of those reservoirs. When the reservoir has got full, I am speaking now of the Hewenden reservoir, the water of the overflow rushes rapidly down the by-wash, and it is usual to open the culvert, or to draw the clough, as it is called, and let down a large volume of water, besides that which is running down the by-wash. Some few years ago, they had a heavy flood, and Mr. Anderton, a millowner, who lives in the valley, a short distance below, was standing on the embankment of his mill-dam, and he had scarcely stepped off it before the water that was let out through the culvert came rushing down, swept the embankment of his mill-dam away, and he narrowly escaped with his life. The other day, when the recent flood was rolling along, I looked out of my window, and I saw the Harden Beck flowing over its banks, and washing over the land. A small bridge which I could usually see from my house was completely hidden by the water. In five minutes afterwards I went to the window and I found that the flood had ceased on the land and the bridge was quite perceptible. On examining the beck my impression was that in those five minutes the flood must have settled nearly a foot The consequence of this great volume of water being let out so suddenly is that it washes the embankments away on both sides of the stream ; the late flood has done a considerable amount of damage. I am desirous therefore of point- ing out to the Commission the system which now exists, because if the reservoirs in that valley were to be increased three-fold or four-fold, which they might be in carrying out this system of supplying water to towns, and if for all was adopted this plan of letting out the water suddenly through culverts, without pro- KEIGHLEY. Mr. I. Booth. 27 Nov. 1866. --- W Ferrand, Esq. 3 E 3 406 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, KEIGHILEY. W. Ferrand, Esq. 27 Nov. 1866. per by-washes to let it flow regularly down, we must have most serious damage done. 13,299. You are probably aware that a bill was pre- pared last session for the regulation of reservoirs?— Yes. 13,300. For their construction and management?— Yes. 13,301. It was carried through certain stages by the Government, but it was too late in the session to be passed ?–I am aware of all the circumstances con- nected with that bill, but I think it is of the greatest importance that you should see the necessity for some stringent regulations being passed as to these reser- voirs, such as I believe are not provided by the measure to which you have referred. 13,302. The evidence which you have now given will in due time come before Parliament. Your opinion at present is that the reservoirs have not sufficient by-wash room provided to allow the water to flow regularly down, and pass evenly away ?— Decidedly. 13,303. And that the mischief is added to by open- ing the cloughs and drawing from the main body of the water at times when there may be a flood – Exactly so. The overflow through the by-washes rushes down with great impetuosity, carrying away almost the whole quantity of rain water that has fallen at the top of the embankment, at the same time they draw the cloughs up suddenly for a considerable distance, and the volume that thus comes down increases the velocity of the stream below so greatly that the embankment is washed away, and the consequences are most serious. 13,304. If the managers of the reservoir were com- pelled in each case to provide sufficient by-wash room for the natural discharge of the surface water, they would then never be capable of discharging more than was due to the surface, and such as must necessarily come in the natural state 2–That is what I mean. 13,305. You would suggest that Parliament should fix them with the responsibility of providing sufficient by-wash room to take safely away the natural fall of water upon the surface 2–Yes. 13,306. Without drawing upon the reservoir at such a time 2—Yes. 13,307. And so adding to the volume of the water passing down and destroying property to a great extent below 2–Yes. 13,308. If you were to take proceedings against the parties now, you would have great difficulty in esta- blishing your claim for compensation, as the matter would be complicated and your claim would be resisted 2–Yes; evidence would be produced on both sides, and that is a kind of action that is better avoided. 13,309. You would prefer that Parliament should lay down certain rules for the management of these matters, so that the landholders should be protected 2 Yes, such measures as would afford greater security both to land and property. 13,310. Has there been any damage done to the banks of the river Aire and the land on either side by the recent great flood —On my property damage of the most serious kind has been done. 13,311. To what extent have you suffered damage? —I should say that at one sweep I have had an acre of valuable pasture land washed away entirely. 13,312. Has anything like that occurred to your property from any previous flood —There was a flood a few years ago, about 1838, when the volume of water which came down this valley was considerably larger than in the recent flood, I know it by mea- surements taken at houses in Bingley which were then flooded. I cannot at the moment state exactly what the volume was, but I have no hesitation in saying, from my full knowledge of that flood and of the recent one, that the damage done to my property has been ten times greater from this flood than the former On 6. 13,313. Although in the former flood you think the volume of water was greater 2–I know it. 13,314. The recent flood has damaged your pro- perty to a greater extent than the greater flood in 1838?–Yes, to a far greater extent. I would account for it in this way—and it is the general opinion of the inhabitants of Bingley who have resided on the banks of the river for many years, and have watched the Volocity of the Aire—that on this occasion the velo- city of the river was increased to a most extraordinary extent, and it will be so whenever a flood takes place. It is the consequence of the river having been straightened between Skipton and Keighley; it is the consequence of carrying out the Airedale drainage system and cutting the river straight. - 13,315. You think that the improvement which has been carried out under the Act of Parliament has tended injuriously to affect your property and the property of others near Bingley —Yes, most seriously. 13,316. By increasing the velocity of the stream 2 —Yes, and to an extent that is quite extraordinary to look at. No one would believe it unless he had seen the river before the alterations were made. As soon as the first part of the alteration was completed, I had a strict watch kept on my property, and when the floods came they began to scour out the banks on both sides. 13,317. Do you not believe that the deepening and straightening of the river may have had the effect of benefiting the lands on either side —Not, I believe, to anything like the extent that was expected. 13,318. But still, I presume, you do not doubt that the lands on either side may have derived some bene- fit?—I have no doubt of that so long as the flood is within certain limits. For example, they have no flooding, comparatively speaking, between Skipton and Steeton; but in a heavy flood their property is still flooded, although the water runs off with great rapidity. The water is now carried to this point (pointing to the map). This is the river Worth (pointing to the same), and this valley during the flood was one sheet of water for several days. Imay mention that the chief ground upon which the Par- liamentary Committee gave their assent to the straightening of the river Aire was the medical evidence that was produced. The witnesses stated that the flooding of the land in the neighbourhood of Skipton, Glusburn, and Kildwick had produced a large amount of typhus fever for many years. They have now, by straightening the river between Steeton Bridge and Stockbridge let the water down to this point just below Keighley, and from Stockbridge to Castlefield, a mile above the town of Bingley. The population here (pointing to the map) is four times greater than in the neighbourhood of Skipton, and if typhus fever was produced at Skipton, as stated by the witnesses, it must be produced at Bingley by the floods. You will perceive that Skipton is at the foot of a great range of hills, and there has been an immense quantity of agricultural land drainage carried on in Craven. Nature provided a security for land and property in this valley by all these sinuosities that you see on the map, which checked the rapidity of the river, and this bend (pointing to the same) has been a safeguard to the property below Stockbridge. If they cut that through I believe that a bridge over the river Aire could not stand such a flood as we had the other day. 13,319. Is there a bridge there (pointing to the map) —Yes, a county bridge. 13,320. Do you think that will be carried away?— I have no doubt of it, and I believe the riding will have to pay 1,500l. if that bridge is washed down. Suppose they cut this through (pointing to the map), and a flood comes so much deeper down below Stock- bridge, the valley of the Aire will be flooded between Bingley and Keighley. Keighley has a population of 20,000, and Bingley has a population of about 10,000. Suppose they cut this (pointing to the map), and let the water down to this point (describing), where the river goes through a narrow gorge to the town of Bingley, I have no doubt that the flooding will be in- creased to the extent of 3 or 4 feet. 13,321. In your opinion, the river should not be tampered with, or dealt with piecemeal –You have RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 407 put a question of great importance, and I say that they had no business to tamper with this river; what they ought to have done was to clear out the bed of the river. Mr. Bateman, an engineer of eminence, was called to prove the necessity or utility of such a step, and was asked this question: “Do you believe that if “ they had cleared out the bed of the river it would “ have answered equally well towards draining the “ valley " and his answer was, “I have no doubt of “ it.” Not only this, but the consequence of pursuing the opposite course, viz., straightening the sides has been that the flooding at all times is far greater; in all probability the railway bridge near Apperly would not have been washed away if it had not been for the artificially-increased rapidity of the river. If they let the flood down to this point (pointing to the map), through the valley, they will contract the river and send it down to the villages in a far deeper volume and with far greater speed, and they will do an im- mense deal more damage. 13,322. You desire to call special attention to this case, so that, if any scheme for river improvement should be propounded, the question should be con- sidered as a whole, and the special effect of what has been done here fully inquired into, so that no similar mistake should be made again?–Yes, exactly. I think it is of great importance, now that we have heard what has been the result of straightening this river, that such a step should never be taken again, unless under the authority and with the sanction of some Government inspector, who had inquired previously as to what the probable effects might be. 13,323. In your experience have you ever known of any solid obstructions being thrown into the river or its tributaries near Bingley P-There is a little stream that runs through the village of Harden, and I have noticed during the last two years that the inhabitants have made a practice, which they never did before, of throwing broken pots and all kinds of refuse into this stream; it is only about 4 feet broad, but the other day there was a gardener at work in a garden, and he cut down a large quantity of gooseberry bushes and other refuse, and he threw them into this stream. The consequence was that when the flood came, it washed all this refuse up against an archway, the water flowed back, and must have done between 40l. and 50l. worth of damage to some beautiful ground belonging to one of my tenants. Now I would suggest that all these streams should be kept perfectly clear from every kind of refuse, and that penalties should be inflicted upon persons who did damage to the property of others, by throwing anything into three streams. 13,324. When such a regulation as that had been established, how would you enforce the payment of the money P-I would have the payment of the penal- ties enforced by Act of Parliament. 13,325. How would you provide the expenses of the necessary supervision ?—That is a question for Parliament to decide, but my own conviction is that every county should bear the burden of its own expenses. 13,326. Would you, as a riparian owner, complain of a rate, regulated by the strictest economy, being levied upon you to carry out the regulations necessary for the drainage of the whole valley of the Aire?—I should have the greatest pleasure in paying my quota, and perhaps I may be allowed to say that it is most gratifying to find that such a good feeling has been exhibited by all the gentlemen who have given evi- dence before you on this matter. 13,327. I suppose you do not anticipate that Parlia- ment would subsidize Yorkshire in a matter of river purification, or river conservancy —I do not think that the country generally should be called upon to do it. I think we are wealthy enough here, being all benefited by the trade of the district, to meet any money demands. I do not believe that any person would object to it. 18,328. Supposing that any special improvements were projected, such as those above Keighley, for the particular benefit of particular estates, do you think the money ought to be provided by a general rate, or that the landowners who desire to have the improve- ments made should exclusively pay for them —I would make every landowner keep the bed of his own portion of the river perfectly clear. 13,329. Down to a stipulated level ?–Yes, it should be kept at a proper level and at a proper depth. 13,330. As fixed and determined by some indifferent person 2–Decidedly. I think there ought to be a Government officer employed. 13,331. Independently of local boards 2—Yes; entirely independent of local boards. 13,332. Would you have a representative board to manage the conservancy of the river, or would you lodge the authority in some central Government de- partment, as in France 2–I should advise that there should be a Government department, and that all complaints should go through the Home Office. 13,333. Would you not contemplate any representa- tion by persons elected from the district —I doubt whether that would answer. I believe that you would have great difficulty in constituting a board sufficiently independent to act. 13,334. In this country, as you know, we assume that taxation is preceded by representation ?—Yes; but I think you cannot have a stronger proof of the correctness of my view than the case of factory inspectors. 13,335. Do you think that they are doing their work advantageously to the public 2–I do ; and with great satisfaction to the employers and the employed. We scarcely ever have an instance in this neighbourhood of any manufacturer infringing the law ; and although there was great doubt at first whether the scheme would answer, I believe it has answered thoroughly well. 13,336. And beneficially for the persons who were controlled 2–No doubt of it. The magistrates have the carrying out of the law, and in every case, in these manufacturing districts, we have more magis- trates engaged in trade than are connected with land. 13,337. You are of opinion that some machinery, not unlike that prescribed by the Factory Act, would be the best form of river conservancy –Yes, as far as the inspectors go ; but I should wish clauses to be inserted in the Act giving power to the police to lay informations. 13,338. If you bring in the county and borough police, I suppose you would bring in magisterial influence at the same time —I believe that the magis- trates, as a body, do their duty most fairly, and that their decisions are most impartial. 13,339. Do you mean the unpaid magistracy — Yes. In corporations I should certainly have the borough magistrates, but where there was no corpora- tion I should have the county magistrates. 13,340. Have you heard any discussion as to the propriety of having stipendiary magistrates ?—I do not think that stipendiary magistrates would, generally speaking, be the proper persons. 13,341. Are they not found to be necessary for all boroughs 2–Yes. 13,342. Do you think that the ordinary magistracy would act better for country districts —I believe that the public generally have more confidence in the unpaid magistrates than in the stipendiary magis- trates, more particularly as the stipendiary magis- trates are paid officers as well as the police. The unpaid magistrates are vigilant and careful as to the performance by the police of their duties, and are very careful to perform their own duties properly. 13,343. Have you a seat on the bench here 2–Yes. 13,344. Have you any difficulty at any time in forming a proper quorum ?–Now and then we have, but very seldom. 13,345. Does it ever happen that there are too many on special occasions; for example, when there is any appointment to make 2–We generally find that when there is a valuable appointment to ".made at the 3 E 4 KEIGHLEY. W. Ferrand, Esq. 27 Nov. 1866. 408 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. KEIGHLEY. W. Ferrand, Esq. 27 Nov. 1866. -- General Quarter Sessions a large number of magis- trates attend. 13,346. Whom you have never seen perhaps for a long time before ?—They take great interest in the matter. I do not object to it at all. I think that magistrates and public officials take a deep interest in the election of a fit and proper person to fill an im- portant office; the eyes of the public are upon them, and if they do not elect a proper person they lose caste as magistrates and as gentlemen. 13,347. Supposing that any special matters are en- trusted to a large body of magistrates and that a select committee first does all the work and then brings it before the general board, does the general board neces- sarily confirm what has been done, or does not the general board sometimes upset the work of the select committee –I generally find, in fact I may say that I always find, that the bench of magistrates select a number of their own brother magistrates who are well qualified to perform their duties, and in whom great confidence is placed, and it is very rare indeed that the decision of the committee is set aside by the general body of the magistrates. I scarcely ever knew an in- stance of a body of magistrates being appointed to inquire into any particular case when they did not most earnestly and zealously perform their duty. 13,348. I suppose you still think that the magis- trates as a body would not constitute a proper board for the conservancy of the rivers ?—I think that the magistrates would be too much interested in the matter, for you must remember that many of the magistrates are the owners of land on the rivers, and that many of them are largely engaged in trade. I would give every person a right to lay an information and prove a case. I would allow the police to be wit- nesses because they are a special body of men paid by the public and are constantly on the move; and the injuries are usually done in the night. 13,349. I believe that town councils usually have to carry out smoke clauses?—Yes. 13,350. Are they carried out in Leeds, Bradford, and Halifax –In Leeds they have made great efforts, and they have been most successful. I understand that the authorities at Bradford are also going to carry out the clauses. I had a conversation with Mr. Salt, of Saltaire, the other day and he was pointing out to me the extraordinary success of his works there ; and he also stated that it was an advantage and a saving to every manufacturer to burn his own smoke, that is to say, to burn the smoke with the view of producing heat. 13,351. In other words, to prevent smoke arising 2 —Yes. I may also mention this fact, that the town of Bingley is under the government of improvement commissioners; several of those commissioners are manufacturers. from most serious damage done to my woods by the smoke which comes from the chimneys in the neigh- bourhood. There is a clause in the local Act of Par- liament for the improvement of Bingley requiring the smoke to be burned. Some years ago they put other clauses of the Act in force against some farmers who carried manure through the streets, and the farmers complained bitterly that penalties should be inflicted upon them for doing that, when, as they said, there was a clause in the Act compelling these improvement commissioners to burn their smoke, and they did not do it. 13,352. If the county magistrates had had jurisdic- tion in that case do you think there would have been a better chance of the smoke clauses being enforced 2–I have no doubt of it. 13,353. If they could have appointed a smoke inspector selected from the police, and had instructed him to bring cases before the bench do you think the smoke nuisance would have been checked 2–I have no doubt that it would ; and I may be permitted perhaps to state what you I have no doubt know, that two-thirds of the smoke which is produced in these factories are caused by the neglect of the firemen, and I have for a number of years suffered the carelessness with which they throw on the coal. An instance occurred in my own neighbourhood lately of which I made a formal complaint. I find now that the great body of smoke has disappeared, and I can safely say now that very little injury is done. 13,354. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you not think that when there is an appointment to be made in the county such as the head of the police, or the governor of a gaol, the magistrates meet together, whether in a smaller or larger number, and take the testimonials which the candidates bring before them, carefully examine them, and exercise the best judgment that they can before they make the appointment —The course adopted in the West Riding is this : we have a very large body of magistrates, and the testimonials in such cases are generally referred to a committee; the committee then report to the general bench, and my belief is that the magistrates, as a body, are greatly swayed by the decision of that committee. I do not say that there may not be some magistrates who have a personal feeling towards one candidate or another, but generally speaking an election to an office is decided by the names of most of the candidates being withdrawn, and three or four of the best of them being submitted to the bench for selection. 13,355. The object being to try and get the best man 2–Yes, and I believe they do that. As to the other question, I believe that if the prevention of river pollution were left in the hands of the magistrates such a large number of the magistrates would be found to be identified with the trade of the riding that such a plan would give less satisfaction than if you had an inspector appointed by the Government. 13,356. You stated, I think, that you would leave those parts of rivers which passed through towns in the hands of the borough magistrates. You are aware that corporations and local boards carry out sewerage works and discharge the sewage frequently into rivers below the towns —Yes; but I was alluding before more particularly to the refuse of various descriptions that is thrown into rivers. 13,357. Would you leave it in the hands of borough magistrates to remedy the mischiefs resulting from their own acts 2–1 believe that if you left the matter in the hands of the borough magistrates they would perform their duty ; the eyes of the public are upon them, and they are certainly elected to a great extent by popular vote. I will take Leeds and Bradford as examples. I have no doubt that if you left the charge of rivers in the hands of the borough magistrates in those towns you would find that they would enforce the law; they might reduce the amount of the penalties, but they would strictly enforce the law; if not the public press of this country would compel them. - 13,358. (Professor Way.) The general tendency of your evidence I think, is this, that a systematic manage- ment of rivers is a necessity?—I think that we have got to that state of things in this district, that unless some- thing is done to stop the present state of things some frightful plague will break out, either in Yorkshire or in Lancashire, which will sweep off a large part of the population, and the time has come in my belief when the matter can be trified with no longer. I do not be- lieve there is a single gentleman connected with trade in this district who does not see the absolute necessity for some interference. 13,359. But each is powerless to move as an indi- vidual?–Decidedly, and for this reason : Suppose there are a dozen manufacturers on a stream, and 11 of them are anxious and willing to stop all these nui- sances ; but the 12th says, “I will not trouble myself about the matter, I have used this stream so long that I will not do anything.” The consequence of that is, that the 11 men say, “It will be of no use our stopping it our neighbour will still go on and do as before, therefore, whatever we do will be no advantage, we shall only be put to considerable expense " ?—I believe that the system can never be stopped by voluntary In 1628. In S. RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 409 13,360. (Chairman.) The one obstinate man says, “I have abused the stream so far, and I will continue to do it.” –Yes; I know instances; a man insists and will do it; he says that he has got his right, and his right he will maintain. 13,361. A large mill owner may say, “I have always thrown my ashes into the stream,” and the question is, “Have you not been complained of by the people below * * “Yes,” he says, “but we will not be stopped “ by them; but supposing a law to prevent it is made “general, we will then stop it immediately *-No doubt I think that many men who are now not inclined to yield would, if they saw that all men were restrained by law, say, it is as fair for one as for the other, and now we will stop. The truth is that people do not like to be interfered with by private individuals, whereas if there was a general law, I have no doubt that they would willingly succumb to it like loyal men. 13,362. (Professor Way.) And not only so, but they would be anxious to get such a law —My belief is this, that not only land, but mills and property belonging to manufacturers, would be greatly increased in value, if the streams were kept reasonably pure. Nobody wishes to do anything to stop trade, but I believe that I am within the mark when I say that nine-tenths of the fouling of the rivers now of one kind and another might be stopped without injury to trade, and that the improvement in the condition of the water would be most valuable to the parties con- cerned. New works would then be erected, and an immense amount of capital would be introduced into trade, which would give increased employment to the population, and increased wealth to the neighbour- hood. 13,363. (Chairman.) Has there been any increase in the agricultural value of land within the last 30 years to your knowledge 2–Yes, very large in the immediate neighbourhood. 13,364. That, I suppose, has followed the increase of population ?–No doubt of it. 13,365. With increased population you get an in- creased value given to land, especially near to towns? —Yes; I do not think that farms have increased in value in the last few years like land in the neighbour- hood of towns for building purposes. The rates are heavy in manufacturing districts, and if there should happen to be a depression of trade, they spring up from 2s. to 4s. 6d. in the pound for poor's rates. 13,366. (Professor Way.) Has meadow land become more valuable 2–In the last 30 years all land has increased in value, but not in the same proportion. You would not get a larger rental for a farm in this neighbourhood than in the Midland counties. 13,367. What is the value of land in this district 2 —It depends upon the locality. We have cold clay lands upon the high hills, which only produce small crops; it is very expensive to get tillage to them, and that is one reason why the sewage system would im- prove the value of the land in these manufacturing districts; the manure would be led from sewage tanks on to the hills at a moderate charge and it would pay the farmers. 13,368. I suppose that if judicious arrangements were made for the regulation of rivers all parties might be benefited 2–No doubt of it, and the health of the neighbourhood would be greatly improved. 13,369. If you improve the health of the people and add to the wealth of the district you will of course have a fair return for any money that may be ex- pended ?–Yes, and I believe that people will pay their money cheerfully. The witness withdrew. - Mr. WILLIAM BURR (Keighley) examined. 13,370. (Chairman.) You are clerk to the Keighley board of health 2–Yes. 13,371. What is your profession ?—I am a solicitor. 13,372. How long have you known Keighley — Intimately since the year 1847. I have known it from 1837. 13,373. Have you prepared any statistics as to the growth of the district within any given period?–1 have not. 13,374. When did you put in force the Public Health Act 2—In 1855. 13,375. Did you adopt that act after an investigation had taken place —Yes. 13,376. By whom was the inquiry made 2–By Mr. Ranger. - - 13,377. Was the act put in force under a provisional order 2–Yes, and it was confirmed by Act of Parliament. 13,378. How many members do you elect to sit on the board P−21. 13,379. Do you remember what the population was at that time –Perhaps about 15,000. 13,380. What is it now 2–About 20,000, perhaps not so much. 13,381. Was there much opposition to the adoption of the Local Government Act 2–No. 13,382. Have you made any purchases of property since the adoption of that Act for gasworks, water- works, or markets –We have bought property for gasworks and we have bought the waterworks, or we have contracted for the purchase of them. We have obtained a site for a town hall, but we have not gone on with it; the market we have not interfered with. 13,383. You have a local market 2—Yes, but it is in the hands of the company who hold it as lessees under the Duke of Devonshire. 13,384. Is the Duke of Devonshire lord of the manor P-Yes. 13,385. Does lessees do. 13,386. Would he not accept the local board as lessees of the market 2—Yes, at the expiration of the lease. - 13,387. What length of time has it to run ?–65 years. 13,388. Can you put in a copy of your byelaws 2–I will do so. 13,389. And also if you please a copy of the Keighley Improvement Act 2–It shall be put in. 13,390. Is it the intention of the board to apply for any additional powers?—Yes. They are applying to extend their gas supply and their waterworks, and also for additional powers and provisions for the improvement of the town ; also to prevent the pollution of the river Worth and the North Beck. 13,391. You will have, in fact, I suppose an Improvement Bill before Parliament 2–Yes. 13,392. Have you served the necessary notices 2– Yes; we expect to deposit our plans on the 30th. 13,393. If you will put in a copy of your bill we shall then see what all the projected improvements are —Yes, I will put it in. 13,394. What is the amount of your present debt? —We succeeded the old commissioners under the Im- provement Act, a copy of which I will hand in. 13,395. How many commissioners were there 2–A great many. 13,396. Were they qualified according to rateable value?—No, they were named in the Act of Parlia- ment. 13,397. How long did they continue in office, or were they re-elected —I fancy they were self-elected. 13,398. Then it was an in and in election ?–Yes. 13,399. Did they hand their debt over to you ? —The only debt was the debt connected with the gas- works and it was a very beneficial debt. 13,400. The old commissioners had arranged to make gas for the town 2–Yes. 13,401. And they handed over to you the works and their debt —Yes, and very beneficial it was to the town. 17159.-2, he receive market tolls —The 3 F. KEIGHLEY. W. Ferrand, Esq. 27 Nov. 1866. Mr. W. Burr. 41() RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. KEIGHLEY. Afr. W. Purr, 27 Nov. 1866. 13,402. Did many of the old commissioners get elected as members of the local board 2–Some of them, but not many; three or four at the first election. 13,403. There was nothing to prevent them being so elected 2–No; I believe that those who became candidates were elected. 13,404. You have said that it is your intention to extend the gasworks?—We intend to extend the gas supply. The proposed extension of the gasworks will be on the same site. 13,405. Do you also intend to extend the supply from your waterworks?– Yes, we must necessarily extend the waterworks. 13,406. Do you expect that the works when they are established will be self supporting —Ultimately they will be. 13,407. Do you contemplate levying a rate in aid to begin with ?–That will depend upon circumstances. Supposing that we are compelled by Parliament to complete at once all the works which may be necessary, we shall be obliged to resort to a rate, but if they will allow us to take the works as we want them, we think that they will be self-supporting. 13,408. You must define clearly and completely what scheme you require 2–Yes, our scheme is de- fined, the North Beck scheme is understood and defined. If Parliament will give us a number of years to carry that out instead of the usual three years, then it will be probably not necessary to have a rate. 13,409. Do you anticipate any income from the sale of water for manufacturing purposes?—Yes. 13,410. Do you know the volume that is contem- plated to be brought in 2–No. 13,411. Did you hear the engineer who was examined say that 23 gallons per head were the volume he con- templated for trade purposes and domestic purposes : —Yes. 13,412. Do you sell any of your water now for trade purposes —I believe it may be sold to one or two parties but such sale is against the provision in the present Act; it is done illegally. 13,413. Have you discussed at your board the propriety of carrying out a more complete system of sewerage 2–Yes, many times. 13,414. Have you discussed the propriety of drain- ing, paving, and channelling the new streets which have been made –Yes, and a great many new streets have been drained, paved, and channelled. 13,415. Are there some now that have not been so treated 2–Yes. 13,416. If you drain, pave, channel, and sewer, you will add necessarily to the amount of the sewage which will find its way into the river ?–Yes. 13,417. Have you discussed the probability of your being allowed continuously to pass the sewage into the river Aire 2–Yes. 13,418. Do you think that you will be allowed to do so 2–I think that we shall not. 13,419. Have you at all considered what you are to do with the sewage if it is not allowed to be passed into the river Aire as now 2–There was a scheme for making reservoirs for filtering in order to prevent all foul deposit from going into the Aire. 13,420. May we assume that your board have anti- cipated that some provision must be made for disposing of the sewage otherwise than by passing it into the Aire?—They have anticipated that. 13,421. May we assume that when the time comes they will fairly and honesty discuss the question and do the best they can —Yes. 13,422. They will endeavour to comply with any moderate law that may be enacted —Yes, I have seen no signs otherwise. I was the first clerk elected after the constitution of the board of health in 1855, and I believe that the board would do everything they could to obey the law as soon as they knew what the law WaS. 13,423. Do any manufacturers in conducting their own special business of washing or dyeing to your knowledge pollute the streams by putting their refuse water in 7–Yes, they pollute the water. 13,424. Do any of them pass ashes or other solid refuse into the river ?–Yes. 13,425. Have you as a local board any power to stop that practice —Not as a local board but as improve- ment commissioners we have powers under the Act. 13,426. Do you retain in your provisional order the powers which were exercised under the Improvement Act along with the Public Health Act 2–Yes, some of them; some have been repealed. The 75th section of the 5th of George the IV., chapter 23, called the Keighley Improvement Act, enumerates a whole host of offences to which you may wish to refer. 13,427. Have you read that Act so as to understand it 2–Yes, I think so. 13,428. Do you consider as a lawyer that it will hold water 2–No ; besides we have had a decision of the Court of Queen's Bench against us. 13,429. For attempting to act upon that clause 2– Yes; it was decided that we had not the power, although it had been assumed that we had. 13,430. Have you had occasion to test the legal applicability of that clause 75, have you attempted to apply it?—I will explain the matter if you please in my own way. Soon after the constitution of the local board complaints were made by several members of it of the state of the North Beck and the river Worth. At that time I was consulted as to what powers the local board possessed to prevent pollution in the way complained of, and I gave it as my opinion then that the powers which we possessed were defective and that it would be quite futile to attempt to carry them out, and also expensive. Things went on in that way from 1855 to 1864, and in 1864 an opinion was pro- duced that had been given by the late Mr. Robert Hall, who was a very sound lawyer, a member of the northern circuit, and recorder of Hull. His opinion was that we had power to prohibit the pollution, or rather the obstruction, caused by ashes and other things being deposited in the beck, inasmuch as the North Beck might be proved to be a common sewer. The board, knowing that that was the opinion which had been given by Mr. Robert Hall, directed me to apply to Sir George Grey, which I did through “The Local Improvement Act Office,” and the answer that was received from Mr. Tom Taylor was that the Act was sufficient to prevent that pollution. Upon that the board directed a prosecution at the very first opportunity of one of the manufacturers who had been detected in polluting the river. But before that, and immediately on their receiving the letter from Mr. Tom Taylor, the board issued the following placard, which I will read, “Keighley Local Board of Health. “Notice to persons throwing or depositing ashes in, “ or otherwise stopping up or impeding the passage of “any common sewer, ditch, or watercourse, within “ the limits of the district of the said local board of “health. Whereas under and by virtue of an Act of “Parliament, made and passed in the fifth session of “Parliament of His late Majesty King George the “4th intituled, “An Act for paving, lighting, cleans- “‘ing, watching, regulating, and otherwise improving “‘the town of Keighley, within the parish of Keighley, “‘in the West Riding of the county of York,” certain “ powers are vested in the above-mentioned local “board, as successors to the Commissioners appointed “by and in pursuance of the said Act, for the im- “ provement of the said town of Keighley, in the 75th “section of which said Act it is more especially men- “tioned that “if any person shall for the purpose of “‘ collecting manure or for any other purpose stop up “‘ or impede the passage of any common sewer, ditch, “‘ or watercourse, every person so offending shall for “‘ each and every such offence forfeit and pay any “‘sum not exceeding 51. ; and it shall be lawful for “‘any officer appointed by virtue of the said Act, or “‘ for any constable or peace officer, to take away and “‘remove any of the before-mentioned obstructions, ‘‘in case the party occasioning the same shall not “‘ remove the same within a reasonable time after ‘ being required so to do by any person or persons * whomsoever ; and it shall be lawful for any con- 4. « ** RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 411 “‘stable or other peace officer, or any one of the said “‘Commissioners, or any officer or other person acting “‘by or under their authority, by virtue of the said “‘Act, and without any warrant whatsoever, to seize “‘ and apprehend any such offender or offenders as afore- “‘ said, and forthwith to convey him, her, or them before * - some justice or justices of the peace for the said “‘ Riding in order to his, her, or their conviction of such “‘ offence; ' and whereas certain persons have, con- “ trary to the provisions of the said Act therein-before “set forth, from time to time contravened the same by “ placing or depositing ashes, rubbish, and other ob- “structions in the common sewers, ditches, and water- “courses, within the district of the said local board, “ and more particularly in the beds of the North Beck “ and river Worth, both within the board's district, so “ that the same have now, in consequence of such prac- “ tice, become a great nuisance and injurious to the “ health of the inhabitants and ratepayers within the “ said district ; Now, therefore, notice is hereby given, “ that the above-mentioned local board of health “ have determined to put in force the provisions of the “ said Act herein-before set forth, and all other powers “and authorities vested in them by the said Act, or by “any other Act or Acts of Parliament whatsoever, “ and to enforce the penalties against parties contra- “ vening the said provisions; and that all future “ offenders will be prosecuted as the law directs.-By “ order, William Burr, law clerk. Keighley, 12th “ October 1864.” That placard was to caution the manufacturers and others from depositing their ashes in the becks, but, as I have stated before, one of the manu- facturers was afterwards detected in throwing ashes in the usual way into the North Beck. The local board was then driven to this necessity: They must either test the correctness of Mr. Robert Hall's opinion by an indictment at the Quarter Sessions, or by some cheaper proceeding, or let the matter fall through On con- sideration it was thought better to summon the offen- ding party before the magistrates and get the evidence in there and then ask the magistrates to grant a case for the Court of Queen's Bench in order that we might have a decision as effectually and as cheaply as possible. I may say that our board take very great care of their money. The matter came before the magistrates, and the magistrates decided against the board, on the ground that the North Beck was not a common sewer. The case was then taken before the Court of Queen's Bench, and the other day it was decided against the board; it is reported in the “Leeds Mercury.” 13,431. Of what date –Thursday, November 26th. 13,432. On what day was the decision given –The day previously; the whole case will be found in the report of the law proceedings on that day. We appre- hend that this decision is a very valuable one to us just now, as we are making application for new powers under a new Improvement Bill, as we might have been answered and told that we had already power to pre- vent pollution, and if so it might have been difficult to get new powers, but when we have this decision pro- nounced in the highest Common Law Court of the country that we have not these powers, we think that there will be no difficulty in getting new powers to prevent the excessive pollution of these two waters, the North Beck and the river Worth. 13,433. I suppose if you obtain such powers as you are seeking to get you will have no jurisdiction beyond your own boundary 2–Unfortunately not. 13,434. The rivers might be polluted above the town to the same extent as they are now polluted by parties below the town 2–Yes, they might be. 13,435. Therefore, the new powers that you are seeking will be effective only within your own district? —Exactly so. 13,436. If it became a matter of expense to keep the beck clean, manufacturers within your district would labour under a disadvantage as compared with others who were outside —Undoubtedly. 13,437. (Mr. Harrison.) That leads to the necessity for a more general Act than the mere local one for * which you mean to apply?—It shows that there is KEIGHLEY. a necessity for a more general Act. 13,438. (Professor Way.) Is not that likely to be the answer which will be made to you in the Commit- tee of Parliament, namely, that you had better wait for a general Act 2–We have appealed for this power, and the highest common law tribunal in the land say that we do not possess the power which the words seem to give us; of course, we cannot exercise power which we do not possess. 13,439. (Chairman.) Supposing that you possessed the powers which you seek within your own district, is it your opinion, as law adviser to the board, that you could do a great amount of good irrespective of any powers beyond your district 2–No doubt of it. 13,440. You could do good to your district and not seriously, if at all, injure the manufacturers ?—I do not see how we should injure them. A great many manufacturers have voluntarily given up the practice of throwing ashes into the beck. 13,441. Are there many manufacturers upon your local board 2–There are some. 13,442. A manufacturer, if elected, may serve upon the board 2–Yes. 13,443. We shall see the clauses which you propose when we see your bill 2–Yes. 13,444. Who are your Parliamentary agents — Messrs. Sharpe, Parker, and Jackson of 41, Bedford Row. 13,445. Then we can get a copy of the bill from them 2–Yes. 13,446. (Professor Way.) Do the powers which you seek refer solely to ashes and such solid matter, or to the refuse of wool scouring, for instance, and dyeing 2–They go to pollution generally. 13,447. Suppose that you were to put your own people under an embargo with regard to the pollution of the rivers, whilst the outside manufacturers were left unrestrained, would not that injure your people, and therefore make it more difficult for them to comply with any law —I do not think that it would much. 13,448. One of the advantages derived from a law compelling each manufacturer to do his part towards the purification of the stream is that each has good water coming down to him free from impurities caused by other parties situated above him on the stream 2–Yes. - 13,449. But if you stop short at some timit your manufacturers will not have the benefit of the clean water, whereas they will have the disadvantage of having to clean their own water, is not that so 2–To a very great extent. 13,450. Would not that increase the difficulty of legislating and dealing with the question, would it not have a tendency to make your manufacturers dis- contented with the measure ?—The view which I, and I think the majority of the board take, is this: that throwing in ashes is really not necessary, and does not benefit manufacturers at all, and that with the exception of the expense of a few shillings for leading them away, they would not be damaged at all by a law forbidding ashes to be cast into running streams, they can use ashes elsewhere if they think proper. But if we were to carry out a stringent power as to liquid refuse, and to say, “You shall not foul the water at all,” we might do manufacturers a serious injury, and a trading district does not wish to injure trade, it lives upon trade, and would not attempt to do anything of the kind; it seems enough to say, “Do not make the thing worse than is necessary.” I hope that there will be a general measure. 13,451. (Chairman.) Has the town been at all damaged by floods within your knowledge --Some little damage has been done during the last flood. I am not aware of any previous flood, but there are people who have lived in Keighley for all their lives, the surveyor and others, who will be able to speak upon that point. The witness withdrew. Mr. W. Burr. 27 Nov. iS66. -- 3 F 2 41 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. KEIGHLEY. Mr.G. Dryden. 27 Nov. 1866. Mr. GEORGE DRYDEN (Bingley) examined. 13,452. (Chairman.) You are one of the improve- ment Commissioners of Bingley P-I am. 13,453. How far is Bingley situated from this lace 2–About four miles. 13,454. What is its population —There are about 6,000 inhabitants in the town itself, about 10,000 taking the parish. - - 13,455. Over what area have you jurisdiction as Imperial Commissioners –I could not state the number of acres, it would be about half a mile each WaV. ić,456. How long have you been a member of that Commission ?—About three or four years. 13,457. Is it a Commission acting under a Local Act 2–Yes. 13,458. How many Commissioners are there — About 30. 13,459. Do they qualify —Yes; by rating and by property. 13,460. Are they elected by the ratepayers?—They are not elected by the ratepayers, they are appointed by the Commissioners. - 13,461. Then it is a self-elected and self-electing body ?—It is. 13,462. How long has it been in existence —About 12 or 15 years. 13,463. Does any stream flow down into and through Bingley?–Yes, the river Aire flows through Bingley, down the west side of it. 13,464. Is there a beck called Harden Beck – There is. 13,465. Have the recent floods had any effect upon property in that district 2–Decidedly, a considerable effect. They have destroyed the banks very much and have flooded the fields and they have done injury in very many ways. - - 13,466. Aré there many manufactories above Bing- ley on the stream —On the Harden Beck there are several. - 13,467. Have those streams, or has the river at that point, been at all impeded by solids being thrown in 2–Decidedly so ; very much so. 13,468. And have the beds been raised ?–I have no doubt of it. 13,469. What kinds of solids have been thrown in * —All sorts of things which you can fancy as being used by cottagers ; everything seems to go in. I am now speaking more particularly of the Harden Beck : almost everything which has to be thrown out of the cottages is thrown into the beck. 13,470. Is the village of Bingley sewered 2–It is. 13,471. Where do the sewers empty themselves ?— They empty themselves chiefly into the river Aire. 13,472. Is there any water supply –There is a good water supply. - - - 13,473. How is water supplied ?–By springs in the immediate neighbourhood. 13,474. The inhabitants get their water from wells and springs —They get their drinking water from springs exclusively. It is carried by pipes to a reser- voir and thence immediately into the town and it is distributed into the houses. 13,475. Are there many waterclosets in use in Bingley —Not a great many, they are exceptional. 13,476. Do such waterclosets as there are drain into the beck 2–Generally speaking they drain into reser- voirs. 13,477. Into dumb wells?—Yes. 13,478. And the liquid overflows or soaks away into the subsoil –Yes. 13,479. In what condition do you find the water of the river as it flows down through Bingley, is it bright coloured or is it foul?—There are no mills above us except a flour mill. A large shoddy mill up to Feb- ruary last was occupied by a gentleman of the name of Worms, and the refuse water which came from it was exceedingly adulterating to the river. I have some- times seen the river almost as dark as the water of the beck. The river passes at the foot of a garden which I occupy and I have seen the water almost as black as SOOt. 13,480. Is the beck fouled as well ?—Yes, the Harden Beck. 13,481. By what is it fouled ?–It is fouled by the water which comes from the mills above and also by whatever is thrown in. At Harden Beck the cottages are almost level with the beck, one side of the cottages forms the boundary of the beck. 13,482. The beck washes the walls?—Yes. I think that there is a little improvement at present but up to almost this period whatever was to be thrown out, the refuse of their washing and so on, found its way into the beck. 13,483. What has been the state of health in those cottages 2–I should wish particularly to allude to that. This year the rainfall has been very considerable and the temperature of the atmosphere has been very low, and consequently they have passed this summer with comparatively little typhoid fever, but last year and for a succession of years before that, and always when the summer has been very warm and the sun has been powerful, there has been an immense deal of typhoid fever in those cottages. There may be 40 inhabitants in those houses and last year I should think that not less than 20 had typhoid fever. 13,484. When they are suffering from fever how are they supported, can they support themselves or has the parish to support them —They are, generally speaking, supported by the parish. My partner is the surgeon to the Poor Law Guardians and consequently he sees a great deal of those cottagers, and from time to time I have seen a great deal of them. Generally speaking, when fever breaks out amongst them they are obliged to apply to the parish for relief. 13,485. Then, if the fever is caused by any mal- arrangements of their houses, or impurities in the stream which could be removed by the parish, the parish is now paying for the disease ?–Decidedly. 13,486. Do you think that the parish might spend its money in preventing the disease ?—The money would be spent a great deal better by having the beck in a proper state. 13,487. And by preventing this pollution ?—Yes. Last year the amount of disease prevailing in that im- mediate locality was so considerable that I made a representation to the chairman of the board of health, and the result was that the proprietor of the cottages was summoned before the magistrates, and he promised that the sanitary arrangements of the cottages should be considerably improved. I believe that they have been to some extent improved. But that inquiry had reference more particularly to the state of the inhabitants, the want of ventilation in the cottages, and the want of cleansing the privies there, and had no reference whatever to the state of the beck, because that did not at all come under the cog- nizance of the magistrates, or of the parties who were giving evidence. At the same time I simply wish to say that this great amount of disease which has pre- vailed so much for a succession of years was not altogether from the internal condition of the cottages, but was partly from the quantity of water emptied from the mills above. When the water is low soap- washings and the refuse from mills are brought down, and the stream not being very quick, they are left by the side of the stream, and part of the bank is left high and dry. In warm weather, when the sun is hot, fermentation arises, and there are emanations of several gases—sulphuretted hydrogen, and sul- phuretted carbon, &c.—in short, a poisonous state of things. I have seen that form of disease at Harden Beck so intense that in 48 hours the poison has car- ried off a man. 13,488. Have you anything like the same amount of disease in the other part of the town 2–No. 13,489. Then, do you connect the dirt and the disease together as cause and effect –I do, 13,490. As Improvement Commissioners have you RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 413 any power to remedy that state of things ?—No, because that is beyond our boundary. 13,491. (Mr. Harrison.) Within your own boun- dary do you take steps to prevent nuisances of the sort –We have a surveyor of nuisances, and he is constantly taking steps in order to bring about a better sanitary state of things. For instance, for a succession of years privies have been built over residences, and residences over privies; notices have been given with regard to those privies, and they are about to be entirely removed, they are not allowed to be continued any longer. 13,492. How are they cleaned out from time to time 2—They are cleaned out at a certain time appointed in the evening or before a certain time in the morning ; the contents have to be carted away under the direction of the Improvement Commis- sioners; they are not allowed to be taken away in mid-day. 13,493. And your inspector looks to it to see that they are cleaned out from time to time —Yes, care is taken, and from time to time there is an inspection by the Improvement Commissioners to see that the deposits of night-soil are clear. 13,494. Is that soil taken into the country and put upon land 2–It is taken into the country, generally by farmers who put it on to their land in the outer districts. 13,495. Have you found beneficial effects to result from this system of inspection and constant cleansing 2 —Decidedly, there is no question about it. 13,496. (Professor Way.) You have spoken of the refuse matter coming down from the mills, and when the water is low attaching to the sides of the stream P —Yes. 13,497. That is principally soapsuds 2—Soap- washings and all those materials. 13,498. Is there any dyeing produce —I think not. The mill which I spoke of was a shoddy mill for separating the cotton from the woollen in order to make use of the wool. 13,499. That was an exceptional kind of mill — Yes. 13,500. Do you know at all what other source of pollution there is from these mills which you speak of besides soapsuds 2—No. So far as I know almost everything is thrown into the becks. Unfortunately manufacturers have been in the habit of polluting the becks, and consequently their tenants and cottagers seem to have no objection to follow the example of the millowners. 13,501. Do the mills employ a great many hands? Yes. 13,502. Where are their conveniences emptied ?— They use ashpits and privies. 13,503. I suppose the refuse is not thrown into the beck 2–No. 13,504. Do you imagine that there is anything seriously injurious in the smell of the soapsuds 2—In speaking of the Harden Beck particularly, where we have had so much disease, and so much fever, you not only have the soapsuds, but you have the refuse of all kinds from cottages. 13,505. Human excrements 2–Yes. 13,506. And are pigs kept –Yes. 13,507. Then the brook is very foul ?—Yes; so much so, that we were obliged to make a representa- tion to the chairman of the board of health, the result of which was a hearing before the magistrates, and a promise to remedy the evil. 13,508. I suppose that the water is in a frothy condition ?–Yes. 13,509. Which would tend to make the gases given off more objectionable 2–Yes, and the cottages are on a very low level. There is a constant emanation of gases; and from what we have seen from year to year, they are of a very poisonous and deleterious character. 13,510. You have no hesitation in referring the disease and death of which you have spoken to the condition of this stream —Partly to the condition of the stream, and partly to the want of ventilation, and of cleanliness in the cottages. 13,511. We may take it, that the uncleanliness of a stream of water running past cottages is so far an inducement to the want of cleanliness in the cottages themselves 2–Precisely. 13.512. As for instance, in not supplying sufficient pure water for domestic cleaning 2–Yes, and the people are in the habit of throwing everything which you can imagine into the stream, so as to obstruct the flow of the stream, and the gases accumulate in large quantities. 13,513. I suppose that familiarity with dirt pro- duces a kind of moral obliquity to dirt —Precisely so. 13,514. If a pure running stream were at the back of these cottages, the probability is, that the inhabi- tants of them would be more cleanly 2–Yes, and it was so originally. I have resided in Bingley for 34 years; when I first came to Bingley there was nothing of this kind; they never thought of such a thing. In those days the people estimated the value of pure water, but now, cottagers seem to follow the example of millowners, and the water is very much deteriorated. 13,515. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you observed much change in the river Aire, as well as in the Harden Beck 2–Yes. The garden which I have goes down immediately to the river Aire, and during 34 years I have watched the floods. I observed the other day that the water did not rise so high by any means as it has done on former occasions; but I observed that it came down much more rapidly. 13,516. You mean in a quicker time?—Yes. 13,517. It reached Bingley sooner after a heavy rain —It reached Bingley sooner, and passed Bingley sooner ; it went in a very rapid stream indeed. 13,518. Is it the case, that the land above Bingley was more flooded than usual?—The land was more flooded than usual, and the stream accumulated in a very much shorter time. 13,519. If the water did not rise so high, and yet passed more rapidly, how do those facts agree with the land being flooded more than before ?—It seems to me from the observation which I have made, to amount to this ; that so long as the river continued in its original bed, and did not much overrun the banks, the increase of damage done was confined to the banks, but when the river rose several feet above the banks, as it did very rapidly, the collateral waters seemed to impede the running stream. 13,520. Has the bed of the river at Bingley risen within your recollection ?—Yes, no doubt it has risen, though I cannot say to what extent. 13,521. As your garden abuts upon the river you would be able to observe it 2–Yes. 13,522. And it has done so within your knowledge? —Yes. The witness withdrew, Mr. WILLIAM SMITH (Keighley) examined 13,523. (Chairman.) You are of the firm of Messrs. J. and S. Smith ?—Yes. 13,524. You are machine makers.”—Yes. 13,525. Where are your works situated ?–On the banks of the river Worth. 13,526. What number of men do - ou employ — Between 400 and 500, you employ 13,527. What area of ground do you occupy — About 5,000 square yards. 13,528. Do you use the water for any purposes either of power or in any way in your manufacture ?— For the engines. 13,529. What engine power do you employ — About 40 horse, - - - KEIGHLEY. Mr. G. Dryden. - 27 Nov. 1866. Mr. W. Smith. - # F# 414 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, KEIGHILEY. Mr. W. Smith. 27 Nov. 1866. --- 13,530. What weight of coal do you consume per annum ?–About 1,500 tons. 13,531. What do you do with the ashes?—We cart them away. 13,532. Have you always carted them away?—No. 13,533. How long have your works been situated upon that site 2–Between 40 and 50 years. 13,534. Did you formerly throw your ashes into the stream 2–Yes. 13,535. When did you cease to do so?—When the local board of health gave public notice that we were to discontinue that practice. 13,536. When was that notice given —About 18 months ago. 13,537. Does it cost you anything now to remove your ashes?—It costs us 11, a week. 13,538. Do you think that a very great hardship 2 —I do not. 13,539. You think that the ashes ought to be removed, though it costs you 11. a week?—Yes. 13,540. And if every other person was obliged to do the same you would not wish the privilege restored to you?—I would not throw my ashes into the stream whether anybody else did so or not. 13,541. Have you been at all affected by floods in that stream 2–Yes. 13,542. Is the bed of the stream any higher than when you first knew it?—Yes, far higher. 13,543. Opposite your place –Yes. 13,544. Do you think that that is partially caused by people throwing in ashes above you?–Decidedly. 13,545. Then do you think that you have assisted to raise the bed of the stream below you?—Yes, 13,546. This system of throwing in solids neces- sarily raises the beds of the rivers ?–Yes. 13,547. And would you say that it necessarily produces a flooding 2–Yes. 13,548. And a more injurious effect 2–Yes. 13,549. And if Yorkshire manufacturers go on throwing solids into the rivers they may expect their works to be flooded more than they have been 2– Decidedly so. 13,550. Have you any idea what extent of loss has been suffered by this last flood?–I know that neigh- bours of ours have had their foundries flooded 18 inches deep and it has cost them a large amount of money. Some of their engines have been flooded and the fires put out, and their hands have been walking about the streets. That is all on account of the bed of the river having been raised. 13,551. Was that notice as to putting ashes into the stream served upon everyone as well as yourselves 2– It was placarded in the streets. I am not aware that we had one personally. 13,552. Has there been a general abatement of the nuisance in consequence 2–Yes. 13,553. Are you a member of the local board – Not at present. 13,554. You have been 2–Yes. 13,555. And may be again?—I do not know. 13,556. That would depend upon yourself and others ?—Just so. 13,557. Is there much obstruction to the stream opposite you and above you by persons throwing in refuse 2–Not at present. 13,558. You think that that has been generally 2–Yes. 13,559. (Mr. Harrison.) Has the late flood at all raised the bed of the Worth 2–I do not know that it has. 13,560. Has it at all lowered it 2–I believe that it has. 13.561. Do you anticipate that if ashes and other refuse were prevented from being cast into the river the result in course of time would be a lowering of the bed of the river ?—I believe so, and I believe that there are means by which that can be considerably acce-erated. 13,562. What are those means ?–We have dam- stones about 120 yards below the low bridge. The abated refuse might all be carried away, only however to another place. 13,563. Do you know the river Aire between the Worth and Bingley —Yes. 13,564. Do you know whether the bed there has been raised?—Yes, it has been. Y 13,565. Is that rather a level part of the river 2– eS. 13,566. Below Bingley the river is rather more rapid –I believe that it is. - 13,567. How many years have you been connected with these works —About 40 years. 13,568. That goes back to a time before there were railways in this neighbourhood 2–Yes. - 13,569. What is the difference at Keighley now in the price of coals as compared with the time before railways were made 2–About 3s. a ton. 13,570. What do you get coal at Keighley now for 2 —We give about 8s. 6d. 13,571. You are almost as well off now as manu- facturers in the neighbourhood of the coal fields 2– There is very little difference. 13,572. Do you get coal for 3s. a ton less than you formerly did —No, I mean 3s. more. 13,573. (Chairman.) Even though you have rail- ways?–Yes, but we would not be without the railways for all that. 13,574. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you mean that the cost of coal now at Keighley is 3s. a ton more than it was before the railway was made?—Yes. 13,575. (Chairman.) Then I suppose that it is the greater consumption which has raised the price?— Yes. 13,576. (Mr. Harrison.) Where did you get your coals from before the railway was made —Partly by canal, and partly from a place about seven miles from here. 13,577. Is the coal being worked out 2–They are not getting so much as they did. 13,578. Still 8s. 6d. a ton appears to be as favour- able a price as that at which mills in the immediate neighbourhood of the coal field get their coals?—I daresay it is. 13,579. Keighley seems to be advantageously situated in respect of having a good supply of water in the immediate neighbourhood?–Yes. 13,580. So that you have two of the principal elements of progress?—Yes, we are very well situated. 13,581. And the probability is that Keighley will be an increasing town 2–Yes, 13,582. (Professor Way.) Have you ever ascer- tained what amount of ashes you produce – About 1,000 tons. 13,583. On 1,500 tons of coal —Yes, but you must understand that all our refuse from the foundry and the shop is accumulated. 13,584. (Chairman.) You do not mean to say that you have 1,000 tons of ashes out of 1,500 tons of coal? —No, I mean the total refuse produced at our works. 13,585. Have you any idea what amount of ashes you would have from consuming a ton of your coal ; would it be one-third, or one-fourth, or one-fifth 2– I do not think that it would be much above one-third. 13,586. Do you think that it would be one-third 2 —Yes; ours is what we call an inferior coal. 13,587. (Mr. Harrison.) The amount of ash depends partly upon the coal and partly upon the way in which it is consumed 2–Yes. 13,588. (Chairman.) How many boilers do you use 2–We have two boilers. 13,589. Of what kind are they?—They are Cornish boilers. 13,590. Do you make smoke 2–Yes. 13,591. At your chimney top —Yes, and at the bottom too. - - 13,592. Do you not think that you could do with- out making it —Yes. 13,593. That is to say, if you had the same restric- tion as you have with regard to the ashes 2–Yes. 13,594. You would not then send out smoke 2–Not so much. RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 415 13,595. I suppose that now you are not required to prevent it, and do not pay attention to it 2–We pay a little attention to it. 13,596. It is more a matter of careful firing than anything else —Yes. 13,597. You want a better man, and to pay him better 2–Yes, and we want something else besides. 13,598. If you paid him so much more per quarter upon condition that he did not produce smoke, and if you deducted fines from his wages if he did pro- duce smoke, he would soon find out a way not to produce smoke 2–Berhaps he might. 13,599. Is there anything further which you wish to state to the Commission ?–No, except that the effect of the bed of the river having been so raised is to dam up some drains, and the cellars of the cottages are flooded. 13,600. How many cottages do you think are so situated as to be thus affected 2–I should think a dozen in our neighbourhood. 13,601. I assume that when that takes place, it is a serious inconvenience to those poor people 2– Decidedly so. 13,602. Do you think that it is liable to cause disease ?—Yes. 13,603. If it dees not cause disease it causes great inconvenience 2–Yes. 13,604. And they are powerless to help themselves? —Decidedly. The water comes up the drain. 13,605. Do you think that the bed of the stream has been raised since those cottages were built and the drains were made?–Decidedly so. - 13,606. How long have they been built –Some of them 12 or 14 years. 13,607. Then within that period the bed of that beck has risen sufficiently to back water the drains, and to flood the tenements –Yes. 13,608. Is it their cellars or simply their ground floors that are flooded ?–Their cellars. 13,609. Are they occupied at all 2–Not to live in. 13,610. When those drains are flooded in that way, I assume that foul water will be driven back from the drains 2–Yes. 13,611. Which will make it far worse than if it was only the river water –Yes. I have been called in when the cellars have been flooded with sewage as black as soot. 13,612. And stinking 2–Yes. 13,613. Could not your local board do anything to remedy that state of things –We tried our best, We diverted the drain in order to get a lower fall for the purpose of getting that water away. 13,614. But it is not available 2–It is not available when a flood comes. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM Cocks.Hott (Keighley) examined. 13,615. (Chairman.) What are you?—A fellmonger. 13,616. Where are your works situated 2–Adjoin- ing the North Beck. 13,617. At the lower part of the town, or the higher part of the town 2–At the low part. 13,618. How long have you known that beck – Above 50 years. 13,619. In what state is it now as compared with what it was when you first knew it?—When I was a boy there were plenty of fish in it, and likewise it was lower by four feet or more than it is now. 13,620. What has raised the bed of that beck?— Refuse turned in by persons above. 13,621. What number of men do you employ — We do not employ many, not above three or four. 13,622. What kind of rubbish has been thrown in to cause that raising of the bed of the beck?—Princi- pally ashes and refuse from foundries, as well as other rubbish from foundations. 13,623. And scrapings of highways —There is no doubt plenty of that. 13,624. In fact, I suppose that formerly persons threw in anything which they liked 2–30 years since, a gentleman who occupied a mill paid very great atten- tion to that matter ; he had the right of the water and then no one dared put in anything. 13,625. Did he die?–He gave up the business. 13,626. And no other person took up the right – There has been one since, but he has been obliged to stop his water-wheel; it was made fast. 13,627. Have you known any of these town drains back-watered P−Yes. 13,628. Is the water discoloured by the refuse water thrown in 2–Very much. 13,629. What is the principal discolouring matter —Of late there has been quite a puddle, by flushing out mill-dams. - 13,630. They flush them into the beck when they like 2–Yes, which matter no doubt would make good tillage if it was taken care of. 13,631. Have you known any losses suffered by flooding from the beck 2–We have suffered ourselves. In the last flood if we had not taken precaution we should have lost above 100l. Our yard was four feet deep in water which has never been flooded before. 13,632. If the beck had been four feet lower, as it was when you first knew it, you would not have been flooded at all 2–Not at all. Above our premises I have known as much as 30 cart loads of refuse per week put into the beck which there is about 40 yards wide, and I have known the bed almost filled up, so that I could go over it. 13,633. By people tipping in on each side f-Yes. 13,634. When a flood came would it take away all that refuse 2–Not altogether. 13,635. It would take some of it away ?–Yes. 13,636. Do you remember the order being given by the local board for people to discontinue throwing in those solids 2—Yes. - 13,637. Has the stream been better since then 2– A little. Parties have still continued putting refuse 111. 13,638. That evil is not quite cured yet 2—It is not. 10,639. And I suppose that if people within the district of the local board ceased to throw in those solids it would not necessarily affect the people outside, either above or below you ?—It would not. 13,640. Then do you think that it is requisite that there should be some power to regulate these streams, and to prevent their being filled in this manner —By all means. 13,641. Do you think that if the practice goes on property may be injured and life sacrificed 2–Yes. 13,642. In what way ?—A street adjoining our property, which had never been flooded before, was flooded 100 yards and more. 13,643. The surface of the street 2—Yes. 13,644. And were the floors of the dwelling houses ſlooded ?–I believe that on one side they were, on the other side they are a few steps above the street, and perhaps the water would not get so high. 13,645. Are you a member of the local board 2–1 am not. 13,646. Do you make any refuse upon your pre- mises 2–Very little, and what we put in is liquid ; it is spent lime-water. 13,647. Would it be very difficult for you to keep that out 2–I do not know that it would. §º Do any solids come from your manufactory —INO. 13,649. (Professor Way.) What is the particular business which you carry on ?–Taking off the wool from sheep skins. - 13,650. What number of sheep skins have you in the course of the year 2–We have sometimes 600 a week, but now we are doing about 200 a week. 13,651. Do you steep those skins in lime 2–Yes, and we then pull off the wool. 13,652. In what form is the lime 2–In a liquid state. IXEIGHLEY. Mr. W. Smith. 27 Nov. 1866. -- Mr. W. Cockshott. 3 F : 416 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUT"f.8 OF EVIDENCE, f.ſºſ(#HLEY. IIr, W. Cockshott. 27 Nov. 1866. --- Mr.J. Milligan. - We take burnt lime and put it on the skins and let them lie for 48 hours and then they are washed. We want clear water for our purposes. When the lime has gone into the skin we draw off and the spent lime- water flows down into the beck. 13,653. Do you put on the lime dry in the first instance —No, in a liquid state. We put the skins into water first and wash them over with lime and a little water. 13,654. After a time they are washed 2–Yes. 13,655. Are they washed in a tank?—Yes. 13,656. Are many skins put into the same tank, or is water running through it all the time —Water is running through it all the time. It comes from the dam-stones into our tank and we wash the skins there, and then it passes into the beck again. 13,657. What is the size of the pipe?—Three inches, that is constantly flowing. 13,658. Then anything which the tank carries goes into the beck —Yes. 13,659. Do you think that such a large quantity of water is necessary for you ?—Yes. We used to wash at the dam-stones. 13,660. In that tank I suppose there is very little solid which remains —Very little. 13,661. What quantity of lime do you use in a year –Perhaps a cart-load a month. 13,662. And such as it is, after it is spent, it goes into the stream —Yes. I do not think that this lime-water will. Quick-lime will kill fish, but 13,663. It goes out in a milky state, I suppose 2– Yes. 13,664. What are these skins used for?—For leather 13,665. For fancy leathers ?–Yes. 13,666. (Chairman.) Do you split the skins 2–-No, we sell them in the whole state and they go to be split afterwards. 13,667. But they are split 2–Yes. 13,668. (Professor Way.) Do you wash the wool after it is taken off the skins —No, before. 13,669. And it is sent direct away ?–Yes. 13,670. That is the only thing which you do?—Yes. 13,671. And that is the only sort of skins with which you deal?–Yes. 13,672. Can you form a notion of the quantity of water which you use in 24 hours ?—No. 13,673. (Mr. Harrison.) What head of water have you ?–Perhaps it may be 1 foot fall, we have a pipe continually running. 13,674. If you were forbidden to throw that water into the stream again what would you do with it?— We should have to filter it. - 13,675. I suppose that the lime gets changed into carbonate of lime — into chalk, does it not 2–I do not know. 13,676. If you were to separate that part which is in suspension, do you think that the water would go away pretty clear —Yes. 13,677. If you leave the skin too long which is destroyed, the wool or the skin —The skin. The witness withdrew. Mr. John MILLIGAN (Keighley) examined. 13,678. (Mr. Harrison.) I believe you are surgeon for the parish of Keighley —For the Keighley dis- trict. I was originally surgeon for the whole parish but it was divided 10 years ago. 13,679. How long had you been surgeon for the whole parish 2–From 1839; from the organization of the union. 13,680. We have had it mentioned that the popula- tion is now about 18,000 or 20,000, what was it in 1839 –I cannot speak distinctly to that point. There has been no great increase from 1851 to 1861. 13,681. What is the death rate in the parish of Keighley now – I could not say unless I looked over papers. I can furnish that information to the Com- missioners. I shall have to consult the registrar first. 13,682. How is it as compared with 1851 or 1839 ° We have been gradually improving. 13,683. You will be able to give us the facts as to that improvement –I think that I shall be able to do so after consulting the registrar. 13,684. Have you known the river during that period —Yes. 13,685. What is its condition now 2–As a matter of course the river Aire has become considerably worse than it was, though I do not believe that it is at all so bad as has been represented by some of the witnesses. 13,686. What is the condition of the river Worth 2 —Our becks here have become deteriorated very much indeed. 13,687. Do you remember when there were fish in them 2–30 years ago I remember trout coming up to spawn and jumping the dam stones five or six feet, to get higher up into the river, where there were sandy beds in which they could deposit their spawn. 13,688. And now there are no trout 2–No. It was a very common practice for the woolcombers to come and capture trout at the dam stones; those are stones just placed across to give the water a direction down to the wheels. 13,689. Are they placed close together ?–Yes; they are very great stones, very strong solid masonry. 19,690. Have you observed whether at those dam stones the bed of the river has risen within your recollection ?—It has risen within my recollection five or six feet, and especially at the North Beck. 13,691. What would be the effect of that upon the sewers ?—I have only heard of one case of a sewer being checked by back-water, so as not to have a free 1'un. 13,692. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. Smith as to the effect of the raising of the bed in damming back the water in the sewers and throwing it into the cellars of some of the houses —I did not hear that evidence. Mr. Smith is better acquainted with that matter than I am, as he lives in that part of the town. 13,693. That has not come under your notice as medical officer –No. 13,694. You were formerly a member of the local board —Yes, for two years. 13,695. Then would it not have come under your notice –I only remember the cases of two cellars which were flooded, which I was requested to visit, and that flooding was owing to some defect in the drainage, there not being a sufficient fall. 13,696. When were you a member of the local board —About a month ago I closed two years' Servl Ce. 13,697. Did the local board take steps to make a supervision of the dwellings of the poor —Yes, there was a constant supervision of the dwellings of the poor; in fact the dwellings of the poor have been improved in the last 30 years. 13,698. With a beneficial result?—Yes; my opinion is that we have been gradually improving, and that the death rate has been falling. 13,699. Are there many cellar dwellings in the town of Keighley —We do not have them, perhaps, in the same proportion as other towns, but we have too many of them. There is a style of dwelling which I very much disapprove of, and which I think dis- figures any town, namely, dwellings under balconies; they are something like cellar dwellings. 13,700. Is there a footpath above them 2–Yes. Whether those dwellings are with the cognizance or approval of the board I cannot say, but I should very much disapprove of them. 13,701. Do you think that there is much ill health among persons living in those places?—I do not know that there is ; they work out of them a great deal; you might go to half a dozen of them and find that there was no one in. 13,702. Is there generally pretty good accommoda- tion as to privies in the town of Keighley P-I RIVERS COMMISSION:--—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 417 think not ; I think that we are very defective in that respect. 13,703. Did your local board take any steps to improve that condition of things —Certainly. 13,704. What steps did you take –In the way of purchasing housesteads and removing them, and putting in privies for the accommodation of the people on either side of the street. 13,705. In your practice have you been able to attribute sickness in any case to the condition of things as it was before you made these alterations — Most certainly; privies close to dwelling houses, or under dwelling houses, are calculated to engender febrile complaints or even small-pox. I remember one case in particular in one of our new streets in this town ; there were four or five privies under a house where a family lived; the small-pox came there, and we could not trace it to anything else. Seven grown up people died ; in fact the whole family died with the exception of the father and mother. It did not spread further than the house just over these privies. 13,706. That you attribute entirely to those privies? —Yes. 13,707. Were you at all astonished at that result? —Not at all. 13,708. Have you examined the water in the neigh- bourhood of Keighley —Some years ago when we were going to erect a new workhouse we were anxious to have a good and pure supply of water ; several samples of water were brought to me in vials, for me to say whether they were pure or impure; mine was not a very refined analysis, but it was sufficient to indicate what the impurities were, and we found them to be chiefly lime, the quantity would vary very much in different seasons of the year. 13,709. Mr. Booth mentioned to us this morning that the basin of the Worth is almost entirely on the millstone grit, in fact the whole of the water which comes down to Keighley comes over the millstone grit * —We cannot tell how far the water percolates through the lime rock before it comes to us. I have always found lime in the water, and when you sink wells and pumps it is surcharged. 13,710. (Professor Way.) Do you think that the water of some of the wells and springs is really hard water 2–I should say that the water of the wells is universally so. 13,711. And that without influence from town drainage —Independently of the town drainage. In fact, I know one pump where patients have said that they must leave the place or must fetch water from a great distance, and at great cost. That is one of the hardest waters which I have analysed, it would leave a great amount of soap at the top. 13,712. Is it harder water than that with which we are supplied in London 2–1 am not aware that the Thames water runs in any lime district. 13,713. It runs through the chalk hills and the oolites. When you speak of hardness do you refer to water as hard as the Thames or harder 2–There is water here very hard and there is water very soft. If you go a mile out on the Skipton Road the water is very pure, you can scarcely discover any lime in that water; but if you come on this side you will find lime in the water. The same thing prevails at Matlock; on one side of the river you have soft water, and on the other you have hard water, and the two places are within a stone's throw of each other. 13,714. You are here in the habit of calling that hard water which we should not think of calling hard water, that is probably because you have such soft water 2–Yes, but all the waters which I have tested here have lime in them, which is a hardening element. 13,715. But you do not attribute any deleterious effects to that ?—No, except the water has a very large amount of lime. In the case of the well which we have here the water is very hard. 13,716. (Chairman.) Is it sulphate or carbonate of lime?—Carbonate of lime. - 13,717. Would it precipitate by boiling 2–Yes; and also by exposure to the atmosphere it would become soft. 13,718. (Mr. Harrison.) Are there any lead mines in the neighbourhood 2–Yes, about seven miles from here; the Duke of Devonshire's mines are between Keighley and Skipton, you there come into contact with the lime rock. 13,719. (Chairman.) Are not all the great leadiodes in lime 2—Yes. 13,720. (Mr. Harrison.) Some of the witnesses have spoken of lead being found in the milisione grit? —It is a very extraordinary event if it is so. The thing which we call millstone grit here is the coarsest and the grittiest of the sandstones. 13,721. Is Bramley fall millstone grit?—That is a specimen of it. 13,722. (Chairman.) Is there anything which you wish to add to your evidence —With respect to the river, I have known the river all my life, having been born in the district ; and ever since I have known anything of it it has been very much contaminated by the manufacturers of this town and Bradford, and all the intervening villages. About 20 years ago I took this extract from the “Leeds Mercury.” (The witness delivered in the same which is as follows :) “ Leeds Philosophical and Literary Society. “ At the last general meeting of this society held º 4. on the 20th instant, an interesting and able paper was read by William Osburn, Esq., “On the epigram and epigrammatic writings of the beginning of the 18th century,’ in which the author gave numerous examples from the writings of Dryden, Pope, Prior, and others, and concluded with one found written on the fly-leaf of an old book, which was of so local “ a character that we venture to give it : “‘ The Aire below is doubly dyed and damned: The air above with lurid smoke is crammed; The one flows steaming foul as Charon's Styx, Its poisonous vapours in the other mix. These sable twins the murky town invest, By them the skin's begrimed, the lungs oppressed ; How dear the penalty thus paid for wealth “‘ Obtained through wasted life and broken health.” (Witness.) The river Aire has never been a sweet river since I knew it. I have an old manuscript history of the grammar school of this town, written by one of the rectors 150 years ago. 13,723. (Professor Way.) Do you say that ever since you have known the river it has been contami- nated by mills between Keighley and Bradford 2– Yes. 13,724. I suppose that there was a time when there were no mills —Yes. 13,725. Then it is only a question of remoteness whether it was once a pure stream or not *—Certainly. I only speak of 150 years ago. Mr. Gale concludes with a few of the pastimes of the place, and he speaks of men catching salmon when they came up to spawn in this river. No doubt the river was pure then. They put up a lantern at the prow of the vessel and the fish were attracted by the light. 13,726. The bulk of the evidence which we have had with regard to the Aire and the Calder is that the great increase of pollution has been within these 20 or 30 years —I lived in Bradford above 30 years ago, and I have known the contaminations poured down from the dyehouses, from Bowling dyehouse especially. 13,727. (Mr. Harrison.) The very fact of the pro- digious increase in the weight of wool dyed now in this neighbourhood, as compared with 20 years ago, shows that the increase of pollution must be in pro- portion ?—There is no doubt of it, but I only say that the river has been contaminated by manufacturers during the time that I have been acquainted with it. & * * * & 4. & 4 - 44 & < * * << * << * * * * 3 G KEIGHLEY. The witness withdrew. 17159.-2, Mr.J. Milligan. 27 Nov. 1866. 418 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. REIGHLEY. - Mr. C. A. Craven. 27 Nov. 1866. Mr. CHARLEs ALFRED CRAVEN (Keighley) examined. 13,728. (Chairman.) You are superintendent of the gasworks here 2–Yes. - 13,729. How long have you been superintendent — About five years. - - - 13,730. Where are the works situated 2–Adjoining the river Worth. 13,731. Does the stream pass your boundary *-It passes our boundary. 13,732. Are your works liable to be flooded by the Worth 2–At the last flood the water came up to the underside of our fires, and if it had not fallen all the fires would have been extinguished, and the town would have been in darkness. The water rose up through the gravel. 13,733. It rose into the fireplaces 2–Yes. 13,734. And would have put out the retort fires —Yes, if the flood had risen nine inches higher we could not have helped the fires being put out, and it was only through great exertion that we prevented its being so on that occasion. 13,735. Have you ever known it so before ?–No. We have had a man who has been at the works 40 years, and he says that he never knew a flood reach so high. 13,736. Do you think that the bed of the stream has been raised so as to cause the water to rise higher than formerly 2–I do. 13,737. Have you known any solid matter to be thrown into the stream above you, such as ashes and foundation material, and refuse of different kinds – Yes. 13,738. Do you think that that has a tendency to silt up the bed of the stream –Yes. 13,739. What amount of gas per annum do you make 2–39,500,000 cubic feet. 13,740. What amount of coa do you use – About 4,300 tons. 13,741. What sort of coal do you use for making your gas —The best ordinary coal which we can use. - 13,742. Not the cannel coal %–No. 13,743. Do you use your own coke for roasting the coal —Yes. 13,744. Do you make any smoke º-No. 13,745. Excepting when you are drawing the retorts 2–Yes; there is no smoke from the chimmies. 13,746. Have you any ashes –Yes. 13,747. What do you do with them —They are now carted away, but I know that formerly they were thrown into the beck : that was before I can re- member. 13,748. You do not throw them into the beck :- No. 13,749. What do you use for purifying your gas — Dry lime. - i8,750. What do you do with the refuse –It is used for agricultural purposes, we charge 1s. 8d, a ton for it. 13,751. And you get that price for it –Yes. 13,752. You get a good price, do you not *—I have known a better price than that. I believe that at York they get about 7s, or 8s. for it; but that is in the centre of a purely agricultural district. 13,753. I suppose that its value depends upon the nearness of the place where it is to be used ?–Yes. 13,754. (Professor Way.) Do you use oxide of iron?—No. - 13,755. Are you aware that that is a purifier –I all. 13,756. Is there any particular reason why you have not used that method of purification ?-The oxide of iron will not remove the carbonic acid, and we find that the lime which we get answers very well. 13,757. Supposing that you had a difficulty in getting rid of your lime, you might resort tº purifica- tion by oxide of iron —Yes, we might then think about it. 13,758. You do not store your lime in any stock — No. º º 13,759. Do you get rid of your tar –Yes; the lar and the ammoniacal liquor. 13,760. How much do you get for the tar 2–15s. a ton. 13,761. Is not that rather low 2–Yes, but we can- not get more here, and we get 7's. a ton for ammoniacal Water. 13,762. Where does that go 2–The tar and ammo. niacal water goes to the chemical works down by Bingley, the former to be made into naphtha and creosote and the latter to make sulphate of ammonia. 13,763. You do not turn any of it into the stream : —No, we can sell it; of course it is our interest to preserve it. 13,764. Have you increased your works latterly 2– Yes, since I came into the management of the works. In 1862, for the year ending July the 1st, we made 24,618,000 cubic feet of gas; in 1863 we made 17,116,000 cubic feet; in 1864 we made 31,659,000 cubic feet; in 1865 we made 32,522,000, and in 1866 we made 39,481,000 cubic feet. 13,765. To what do you attribute those increases; are the streets better lighted 2–Yes; a great many additional lamps have been put up, and there is a great impetus in the iron trade, I believe, for lighting up the new shops ; they have begun to singe the yarn by gas, and they also use gas for the combing machines. 13,766. You do not in any way contribute to the impurity of the river ?—I believe not. 13,767. When you have to repair a gas holder and to let out the water, what do you do with it 2– It must run down, but we have only done that in one Case. 13,768. What supply is there to the gas holders?— We have two supplies; we have the spent water from the boilers of two manufactories adjoining our place. We require about 5,000 gallons a day for all our purposes, including the keeping up of the tanks. 13,769. Why do you use that water from the boilers; is it better suited for the iron –It is cheaper. 13,770. Is not a great deal of that water carried off in the operation itself?–Yes, and in slacking the cinders. 13,771. Have you not to add a great deal of water to the tanks –Yes; some of the old tanks are not very tight, but we intend some day to pull them out. 13,772. From your experience in gasworks, would you say that the water diminishes in quantity even without any leakage –In one case, I have known our largest tank to be five or six weeks without any supply of water, the quantity had diminished very little indeed. The main loss in the gasholder tanks is owing to leakage from the bad construction of the tank. 13,773. Does not it depend to some extent upon the cooling of the gas before it gets into the gasholder 2– To some little extent. 13,774. The necessity of discharging that water only occurs when some repairs are required to the tank?—Yes, only in some case of emergency. 13,775. (Chairman.) What number of retorts have you in use —About 80 or 90. 13,776. Are they earthenware or iron —They are both clay and iron ; about two years ago we had all iron retorts, we are now doing away with them. 13,777. Do you prefer clay retorts —Decidedly. 13,778. Do they make better gas —I cannot say that they make better gas, but the quality of gas is equal to that which is made from iron retorts. 13,779. Do they last longer than iron retorts?— Yes; double the length of time. 13,780. Have you any applications from mothers to bring their children in illness into the purifying house?—Yes; sometimes we have the edges of the purifiers lined with children. - 13,781. For what disease do they bring them 2– Chiefly for hooping cough. - 13,782. I suppose that from the fact of so many coming one after another mothers think that it does their children some good 2–Yes, they seem to think so, and I think that it does. I have seen a notice in -------- we sell RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 419 the gas journal that some French physicians recom- mend it very much. 13,783. Have any of your workmen at any time been afflicted with asthma 2–No, none that I know of, who have been in the purifying department. 13,784. Do asthmatical people get any benefit by coming in 2–We have not many of them coming there, but I believe that they would if they came there. 13,785. What effect has the purifying house upon you if you go into it; is it oppressive to you?-Not at all. - 13,786. Is it injurious to the men who work there? —I do not think so. 13,787. Is any portion of the business injurious to the men 2–I think not. We have one old man who has been there for 40 years, and he has worked in every department. 13,788. You do not believe in any smells from gasworks being injurious to health —No, I think not. 13,789. Or that handling or working amongst the tar is injurious to health —I do not think that there is anything injurious in it at all; in some cases the effect is quite the reverse. 13,790. How long have mothers brought their children to your works —Ever since I recollect. We give them every facility. 13,791. You do not charge them anything —No. 13,792. Do they seem grateful for permission to come there?—Yes. 13,793. Do any medical men object to their coming —No. 13,794. (Professor Way.) When men get wounds on their hands is there any tendency in the wounds to run into inflammation ?—No ; I have not seen anything of that sort. 13,795. Do wounds heal pretty quickly —Yes. 13,796. (Chairman.) Have you any steam-engines upon your premises?—We have not at present, but we are going to have one. We have one ordered In OW. 13,797. What is it for 2–For exhausting the gas. 13,798. Are you going to get up steam by the spare heat from the retort flues 2–No. 13,799. Do you not think that you could do so?—I think that it is possible. But there is this objection to it; we have three different retort houses, and we have not always the same at work, so that we must have a provision for firing. 13,800. Have you more than one chimney –We have two chimnies. 13,801. What do you get a ton for your coke 2– 8s. 4d. 13,802. Do you find a ready sale for it?—Yes. 13,803. Do you buy any coal for firing the retorts 2 —No. 13,804. How much of the coke can you sell?— About 6 cwt. for every ton carbonized. 13,805. How much do you use, and how much have you left for sale 2–We make about 13 cwt. of coke per ton. We use about half, and sell about half. 13,806. About half the quantity which you have is sufficient to work your retorts 2–Yes. 13,807. Then you have about half for sale?—Yes. 13,808. After you have roasted the gas out 2–Yes. If we had our retorts as they have in London and other places, where they have a great number of retorts set in one furnace, we should have a greater quantity of coke to sell, but that would not be suitable for our requirements. 13,809. Is not the heat, when it passes into your chimney flue, very intense 2–Yes. 13,810. Have you ever tried to make the heat serve for more than one set of retorts 2–I believe that it has been tried. 13,811. Did it answer –I am not quite positive whether they have it in some of the works in London; but I know that it has been tried. I have drawings at home of that system of setting. 13,812. By a double arrangement 2–Yes. 13,813. In order to get as much out of the coke as could be got?—Yes. 13,814. Is there a sewer outlet in front of your gasworks?—Yes. 13,815. Does it form any deposit there, or is it affected by the deposit in the bed of the river ?–It is affected by the deposit in the bed of the river. Some- times we have to clear out the rubbish which has been brought down by the stream in order to keep it from backing up the drain. 13,816. The bed of the stream occasionally rises so high that it causes the water to back up 2–Yes, higher up in the drain than our premises. 13,817. And to the inconvenience of owners of property 2–Yes, 13,818. Do you think that that is in consequence of the bed of the river having been raised from time to time 2–Yes, I believe so. At the time of the flood there was a drain on the opposite side which had got completely racked up with the waters, and it caused great inconvenience to some houses opposite our works. 13,819. Do you know to what height the water rose during the last flood, measuring from the low- water level of the beck up to the highest flood line?— I should say about five or six feet, perhaps five feet. 13,820. You did not measure it 2–No. The witness withdrew. Mr. John SHARP (Keighley) examined. 13,821. (Chairman.) You are the surveyor to the local board 2–Yes. 13,822. You were previously surveyor to the com- missioners, were you not?—There was a board of sewers for the town and parish, and I was their surveyor. 13,823. And you have been surveyor to the board of health since then 2–Yes. 13,824. How long have you known Keighley — 40 years, and more. - 13,825. How long have you acted as surveyor – I have acted since 1840. 13,826. Were you a surveyor previously —No, I started in 1840. 13,827. In what state are the rivers and becks now as compared with what they were when you first knew them 2–The beds of the becks are raised con- siderably higher. 13,828. By what have they been raised ?–By engine ashes and other rubbish which have been turned into the beck. 13,829. Have you, as surveyor, ever carted any road refuse in 2–Yes. 13,830. How long since 2—About a year since, or rather over. 13,831. Have you ever seen foundation material carted in 2–Yes, a great deal. 13,832. How much do you think that the bed of the beck has been raised ?–I can scarcely tell, but I should think 4 feet. 13,833. Has it blocked any of the drains in the town 2–Yes. 13,834. It has back-watered them 2–Yes. One at Low Bridge, two at Greengate, one in the South Beck, and another in the North Beck. 13,835. Have people complained to you, as surveyor, - of those drains being back-watered 2–Yes. We made a temporary drain down the beck side, and I think the people have not complained so much since that has been made, but they have complained several times lately. - 13,836. Did the last flood back-water any drains 2 —Yes. 13,837. Which of them —Along Longcroft, and it back-watered the one at Greengate; but there are not so many dwellings there. REIGHLEY. Mr. C. A. Craven. 27 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. Sharp. --~~ 3 G 2 420 Rivers commission –MINUTEs of Evidence. KEIGHLEY. Mr. J. Sharp. 27 Nov. 1866. Mr. H. Emmott. 13,838. Have the people ceased to throw in their solid refuse since the board issued their notice – Partially. 13,839. Do some of them do it yet —Yes. 13,840. Have you, as surveyor, any power to report them, or to stop them —Yes. 13,841. Do you do so if you see any person throwing in solids —When I have seen them do it I have reported them to the board. 13,842. What do the board do if the parties do not give over that practice?—They take action and sum- mon them before the magistrates. 13,843. And what do the magistrates do —They seem to say that they have no jurisdiction. 13,844. You had a case before the magistrates recently, had you not ?—Yes. 13,845. You, on behalf of the board, were the plaintiff —Yes. 13,846. And you lost your case ?—Yes. 13,847. Is that the case which was mentioned by the clerk to the board —Yes. 13,848. Have you carried out any sewerage since you have been surveyor to the board?—Yes. 13,849. What sewers have you made 2–We are now bringing up one from Stockbridge, and we have made one up Brunswick Street. I can scarcely tell you the number. 13,850. Of what size are they –The one which we are now bringing up is a yard in diameter, and a yard high ; 2 feet wide at the top, and 16 inches at the bottom, and covered with flat covers, 13,851. Do any of them ever press in at the sides 2 —Never. 13,852. What do they cost per yard 2–They vary, some cost about 21. a rood and some cost about 12s. a yard. 13,853. Are seven yards a rood – Yes. 13,854. Have you any man-holes in your sewers ?— Yes, every 20 yards. 13,855. And can you get easily to them from the surface of the road 2–Yes. 13,856. You cover them with a flag and brick over ? —Yes. 13,857. Do you not think that it would be better if you covered with a moveable cover, which could be removed easily –Yes. 13,858. Have you any ventilation to your sewers ? —Only by the gullies at the street side. 13,859. Are they not trapped —No. 13,860. Are stinks complained of from them 2– They have been occasionally complained of, but there is a very large flush of water. 13,861. Do the down spouts from the houses go into the drains 2–No. 13,862. Do the down spouts deliver the water on to the pavement —No, into the causeway. 13,863. And into the drain —Yes. 13,864. Might they not act as ventilators?—Yes, partially. 13,865. Do you not think that it would be much better if your sewers were ventilated 2–Yes. 13,866. (Mr. Harrison.) Are the houses generally connected with these sewers which you have put in 2– Yes, generally. 13,867. What passes at present from the houses into the sewers ?–Only their slops. The witness Mr. Hol\IES EMMOTT 13,895. (Mr. Harrison.) How many years have you resided in Keighley —41. 13,896. How many years have you been inspector of nuisances 2–11 months. 13,897. Do you remember the state of the streams here formerly 2–Yes, very well. 13,898. How were they 40 years ago as compared with what they are now —40 years ago I cannot tell much about, but 35 years ago they were lower from 13,868. Are there many waterclosets in the town 2 Not very many. 13,869. How many ?—I do not know exactly, but the board have always set themselves against water- closets; they have not granted them. 13,870. Are there ashpits generally in the town – Yes. 13,871. What becomes of the refuse from these ashpits –It is taken by the farmers in the neighbour- hood. 13,872. Ashpits are general throughout the town 2 —Yes. 13,873. Are they generally placed at some little distance from the houses 2–Generally, but some are Il Call". 13,874. Do you find those which are near objection- able —Yes, they are rather objectionable, being so very near. 13,875. Are they mischievous to the health of the people —We think so. 13,876. Do you and the board cause them to be removed when they are so —We cause them to be removed when they become a nuisance. 13,877. Do you sewer much into the North Beck? —Yes, a good many sewers go into the North Beck. 13,878. So that you make the North Beck a kind of main sewer –Yes. 13,879. Do you think that that is a good plan —No. 13,880. Are many houses situated upon the North Beck 2–Yes. 13,881. What is the effect upon the health of the people residing close to the beck —I should consider the effect very injurious in some parts. 13,882. Have you known ill health arise from that cause –Yes. 13,883. Are you taking any measures to remedy that mischief?—We are bringing up this main sewers I do not know how far the board have extended it but it is intended partially to remedy that evil. 13,884. Is the whole of the town sewered 2–No. 13,885. What becomes of the water from the sinks, in the parts of the town where there are no sewers? —It is forced to lie upon the surface of the ground. 13,886. Does that give rise to bad smells and ex- halations 2–Yes; where the slops lie upon the surface; but generally the town is pretty well sewered. 13,887. (Chairman.) Has there been any general plan made for draining the town —There has been a survey but not a general survey for the whole district. 13,888. Do you know Mr. Isaac Booth 2–Yes. 13,889. Is he not acting for the board as consulting engineer –Yes, 13,890. . . . has been advising you—Yeg. 13,891. And you have gone over the district with him —Yes. 13,892. Is there anything which you wish to add to your evidence —I find that I have gone rather too far in my statement of the deficiency of drainage. There are a few short streets on the north side of the town which are not yet completely paved, and the board have given the parties notice to pave them. 13,893. It is merely a few short streets which are not paved 2–Yes, but they are drained. 13,894. How soon are you going to pave them — I do not know, I have received orders to pave Caven- dish Street. withdrew. (Keighley) examined. four to five feet than they are now, speaking of the North Beck. 13,899. How do you know that ?—I know it by some property which goes alongside of the North Beck. 13,900. Are you interested in that property 2–No, but I went to school there, which makes me know all about it, and we used to play in the beck, and I see that is has risen something like four feet at those old RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 42 i buildings, which are now standing on the side of the beck. We used to go down two steps into the beck. 13,901. Do the builders in the town throw rubbish into the beck —They do not now ; they have done so. 13,902. What sort of rubbish was it 2—What they excavated from cellars, foundations, and so on. 13,903. Was there much stone about it 2–Yes. 13,904. Solid, hard matter which would not be easily washed away ?—Yes, mostly gravel. - 13,905. Have you ever examined the material now forming the bed of the river?—Not lately. I have not examined it since this flood. 13,906. What would it be two feet below the sur- face of the bed ?–Stone, sand, gravel, and engine ashes. 13,907. You won ld find them all mixed together —Yes. 13,908. Imbedded one into the other ?–Yes. 13,909. So that, if persons told us that engine ashes did not harm the river much because they would be light, and would be washed clear down to the sea, that would not agree with your observation ?–No, because one gets bedded into the other, and so solid matter is formed. 13,910. Can you give the number and the descrip- tion of the mills and manufactories on the banks of the stream at Keighley —Upon the North Beck I believe, that there are about six worsted mills, one paper mill, and one corn mill. 13,911. What sort of refuse do they throw in 2– They used to throw in their engine ashes, till lately : they have not done so lately. 13,912. Is there any polluted water of any sort — They turn in the water which they have used for their dyeing purposes. 13,913. Is that all that they throw in 2–Yes. 13,914. Do they thrown in soapsuds and things of that sort —Not now, they used to do so; they send them to Messrs. Teale, Le Paige, and Co. 13,915. Where do they get their supply of water —From the beck. 13,916. For their boilers ?—Yes. 13,917. And for cleansing wool?—Yes, 13,918. Is it clean enough for their purpose 2–It is not at all times clean enough for what we call scouring wool, or washing it. 13,919. At these mills is there much human ordure thrown into the river ?—No. 13,920. How do they manage generally about that refuse –They generally have tanks, and mix the ordure up with soil. 13,921. And they then send it out on to the land – Yes, for agricultural purposes. There are one or two parties, I believe, who turn it into the beck. 13,922. Are there many underground cellars in the town of Keighley —Yes. 13,923. Do you find that in floods, like what you had a fortnight ago, the water is back-watered into these cellars?—Yes, and into the houses too. 13,924. What is the character of the water which is so back-watered into the houses and cellars 2–It is muddy. 13,925. There is a smell ?—Yes, very bad. I went into several places after the water had subsided. 13,926. Does the smell remain some time after the water has receded ?–Yes. 13,927. Does it cause ill-health to the inhabitants 2 —I suppose so. 13,928. But you do not know –No. 13,929. Have the people called your attention to that nuisance —Yes. 13,930. What steps have you taken 2–I have told them to get it cleared away as soon as possible. 13,931. Have you assisted them to do so?–No. 13,932. Have you reported to you board that steps might be taken to remedy the matter permanently — I have not had the means of doing so since the flood but perhaps I shall do so. 13,938. Are many of those cellars inhabited by poor people * Yes, 13,934. Were they driven out the other day when the flood occurred 2–Yes. 13,935. What became of them —They had to go into their neighbour's houses. 13,936. How long will it be before those dwellings are inhabitable again —They have to be cleaned out and whitewashed. 13,937. Were they full of water –There was six feet of water in them I believe. 13,938. The same nasty sort of water –Yes. 13,939. Do you think that those houses can be ſit for human beings to live in at present 2–I do not think that they are, but the people have gone back to them. 13,940. Should not you think that that would be a cause of sickness in the town : —Of course it would. 13,941. Are many of these low parts of the town let out for lodgings?—No. 13,942. Have you a common lodging house in the town of Keighley –We have nine registered lodging houses. 13,943. Have you any lodging house belonging to the commissioners ?–No. 13,944. (Chairman.) In what part of the town have you most disease ?–In the upper end. 13,945. What do you call it 2–Westgate. 13,946. Are there many pigstyes in the town – Yes, 13,947. Have you power to remove them or cause them to be removed if they are a nuisance —Yes. 13,948. Have you given notice for the removal of any of those pigstyes?—I have given notice for the closing of several of them, and I have told the parties to keep them clean or that we shall remove them. 13,949. Have you many ashpits and privies close to dwelling houses? —Yes. 13,950. Have you had to complain of any of them 2 —Yes. 13,951. Have you had to give notice to cleanse them 2–Yes. 13,952. Do you think that they ever are cleansed? —Yes, I see that they are. 13,953. Do you think that they do not stink as badly when they are empty as when they are full 2– I hardly think that they will. 13,954. They are not sweet when they are empty, are they –No, they are not. 13,955. When you empty one of those styes it is not actually cleansing it —No ; we now use per- chloride of lime. 13,956. How many men have you under you?— Three. 13,957. They are working under your orders?—Yes. 13,958. Do you look after the sweeping of the surface of the roads —Yes, for paving. 13,959. If you find that cottage walls are dirty have you power to order them to be limewashed 2–Yes. 13,960. And if a room is not ventilated, can you order that ventilation should be put in 2–Yes. 13,961. Have you done so in the last twelve months —Yes, and it has been attended to. 13,962. Do you think that that has had any bene- ficial effect 2–Of course it has. I have paid house to house visits in the lower class of houses. - 13,963. Are the people offended when you visit them —They were rather so, but they do not seem to be offended now. When I tell them from what the evil arises, namely, from having dirty houses, they seem to be very glad to remedy it. 13,964. Where do you get water for watering the streets 2–From the North Beck and from the river Worth. 13,965. Do you get no water from the waterworks for watering the streets —No. 13,966. Are most of the houses supplied with water? —Yes. - 13,967. Do any of the people there use water from the beck 2–No, I do not think that they do except for washing; two or three do that I believe. 13,968. How many houses do you think were flooded by the last flood –Perhaps a score, IXEIGHLEY. Mr. H. Emmotſ. 27 Nov. 1866. 3 G 3 422 RIVERS OF EVIDENCE, COMMISSION :—MINUTES KEIGHLEY. Mr. H. Emmott, 27 Nov. 1866. - Mr. W. Burr. Mr. J. Brigg, 28 Nov. 1866. 13,969. Did it injure any of the furniture of these poor people?—Yes. 13,970. And have they to suffer that loss them- selves?–Yes, I suppose that they will. 13,971. Did it injure any manufactories —Yes. 13,972. Is there a manure yard anywhere near the town, where ashes are carted to, when they do not go into the country for sale?—No, we have not a depôt for the ashes; we have for the sweepings. 13,973. Have the poor people to pay for taking their ashes out, or do they get paid by the farmers?—They used to get paid by the farmers, but now we can scarcely get farmers to take ashes away. I suppose that it will end in our having to have a depôt. 13,974. Do you not think that it will end in the board having to do the work themselves 2–Yes, I think that that will be the remedy. We could get the matter in the best order if it was in that way. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM BURR (Keighley) further examined. 13,975. (Chairman.) Do you wish to make an additional statement to the Commissioners ?—The surveyor stated, and stated correctly, that some streets were unpaved and undrained; he was referring to the street which is named Cavendish Street, but I wish it to be understood that that is a street which is not yet formed, it is not half built yet; it was only commenced about two years ago, and the proprietors of the land. themselves applied to the board to put the powers into operation and to drain it and pave it at once, and not to wait until the street was finished. I wish to explain that in order to show that even in that one street the proprietors of the land were anxious that proper drains and pavement should be put in, and if there is any fault at all it is the fault of our surveyor in not having done it already. 13,976. Have you availed yourselves of your bor- rowing powers ?—Not at all. 13,977. But you know that you can borrow for the formation of streets for 5, 10, 15, or 20 years 7–Yes. 13,978. And that you can take back the money from the owners of the land 2–Yes; that subject has been discussed, but, as I have already stated, our board is a very careful board, and they have hitherto refused to put those borrowing powers into operation, but they must put them into operation now. 13,972. Do not you see that the system which has been hitherto adopted is anything but economy. In the streets to which I am alluding a pair of wheels can hardly go along, and if you go on in that way through the winter the probability is that vehicles will not be able to go along them, and then if the poor creatures who live there can get their coals at all the coals must be tipped at the end of the streets and be carried to the houses by hand 2–Yes. 13,980. Do you know that in Lancashire during the cotton famine nearly 400 miles of that sort of street were paved 2–Yes. (Mr. Sharp.) We cannot get the material to do it. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 11 o'clock. Keighley, Wednesday, 28th November 1866. PRESENT: ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. JoHN THoRNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Professor John THOMAS WAY. Mr. John BRIGG (Keighley) examined. 13,981. (Chairman.) Are you resident near Keighley 3–Within a mile of the town. - 13,982. Are you chairman of the bench of magis- trates of this district 2–Yes, I have been so for about 15 years. 13,983. How long have you known Keighley – From infancy. 13,984. Have you been at all engaged in business —Yes, I have been engaged in worsted spinning and in the manufacture of wool. 13,985. Are you still engaged in that business – Yes, nominally so, but I have a partner. 13,986. Where are your works situated 2–In West Lane, half a mile from this place, above the town. 13,987. Do you use water-power or steam-power —I have two mills; one is about half a mile from the town, and there I employ steam-power entirely ; and I have another two miles off above, on the stream, on the Laycock Beck. 13,988. Is that a branch 2–I do not know exactly what you would call it. 13,989. Does it fall into the North Beck —Yes, it will be the North Beck. 13,990. Do you use steam-power –At the mill near the town I use steam-power, and the one which is two miles from this place on the bank of the North Beck is worked by a water-wheel. 13,991. Of what power is it?—About 20-horse. 13,992. Have you water at all times in the year sufficient to work your power 2–No. 13,993. How long do you stand still in a dry year on an average, take last year for instance 2 – Last year perhaps we should have lost 60 hours during the summer months. 13,994. Is not that very small —We have lost as much as 100 or 150 in some years. 13,995. Do you work all the time —By the Factory Act any loss of time that arises from short water, where there is solely a water wheel, may be regained by one hour each day. 13,996. That enables you to calculate the loss by hours ?–Yes; a return of that kind is made to the factory inspectors. 13,997. How long has the mill which is in your possession been worked by water-power –It was worked by water-power before I was born. I cannot tell, but 60 years ago. 13,998. Has there been any material alteration in the character of that power since you can recollect it, or is it as good now as it was when it was first commenced 2–It is much better, owing to the reser- voir that we made on the moor 28 years ago. 13,999. Has the channel leading to the wheel been choked up by wreck washed down from the moor 2– No. 14,000. Has the tail-goit been impeded by floods – Yes, occasionally by wreck which has been brought down by floods, as on Friday week last; we had more wreck accumulated in the goit then than we had had for seven years; it threw us into back water. 14,001. Have you to remove that by hand?—Yes; it is too heavy to flush. 14,002. What will it cost you to clear the tail-goit after the last flood 2–Perhaps from 5/. to 101. 14,003. Are there any factories on that stream 2– No, we are the highest. RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 423 14,003a. Is there any solid refuse thrown in above your mill ?—I believe not, not the slightest. 14,004. Do the banks subside at times and wash in above you?—I do not think they do; the North Beck is exactly as wide as it was when I recollect it first. 14,005. How many hands do you employ at that mill?—I employ perhaps 40 there. 14,006. Do you dye or wash —Neither. 14,007. Do you use water for any purpose in your manufactories –All the water that we use there is for turning the water-wheel; I except what is used at a cottage on the premises for domestic purposes. 14,008. Have you any privy accommodation for the hands employed in that mill?—Yes, but not on the banks of the river. 14,009. Does any refuse pass into the river ?–No. 14,010. You do not pollute the stream by that mill in any way ?–No ; the privies are on the opposite side of the building to the water ; we contract with a farmer to take away the excrement. 14,011. Do the farmers pay, or do you pay them for taking it away ?–It is a tenant of my own who takes it ; I let him have the privilege of taking it away, but he takes it away at his own cost. When the refuse has accumulated in the troughs he is sent for and takes it away. 14,012. Do you think the floods are as heavy now as they were when you first knew the river?—Not at our mill, in consequence of the reservoir that we have made ; that has altered the conditions of the stream all the way down. 14,013. What volume do you send out of that reservoir on each day ?—That depends upon the quantity that we want. 14,014. Is that a reservoir that you made your- selves?—No ; it is a reservoir that was made upon the Duke of Devonshire's property originally. 14,015. (Mr. Harrison.) Is that reservoir about five miles to the westward of Keighley –Yes. 14,016. (Chairman.) Did the Duke of Devonshire make it for you or for his tenants —Originally the duke advanced the money, but we paid a certain amount of rental for 14 years after that. I hap- pened to see his grace, and he said to me, “Is it a good thing " I said, “Yes.” “Then,” said his grace, “Would it not be a good thing to have another ?” I suggested the propriety of enlarging the present one, as the bank was sufficiently strong, and his grace then sent an engineer to examine it. He considered that it might be safely raised six feet higher. We rented it first for 14 years and then for 10. Four years have now gone in a 21 years’ lease. I hold in my hand an extract from a report by Mr. James G. Lynde, junior, upon the Keighley reservoir, December 28th, 1853, which was sent to the agent of the Duke of Devonshire in London, William Curry, Esquire. It is in these terms — “During eight months of the year there would be a “ deficiency of water at the mills without the reservoir “ of 238 cubic feet per minute for ten hours a day. “ The surplus water during ten hours a day for the “ remaining four months is equal to 14,063,184 cubic “ feet. The drainage area belonging to the reservoir “ is 445 acres, and the average flow of water per acre “ due to a depth of 18 inches rainfall is 124 cubic “ feet per minute, which would give an average flow “ into the reservoir during the year of 55:18 cubic feet “ per minute. The reservoirs or dams attached to “ the several mills are capable of storing about “ one and a half hour's supply. This added to the “ 10 hours work gives 11} hours for each day during “ which the millers can availably use the whole “stream. During the remainder of the 24 hours, “ which will be 124 hours, the water may be stored beneficially. At the rate of 55:18 cubic feet per “minute, 15,104,525 cubic feet can be stored per annum at the level of the present reservoir. * Between the reservoir and the highest mill on the stream there is a large drainage area, for which a “storage reservoir might with advantage be con- “ structed, but this does not affect the present ques- “ tion. * I estimate the contents of the existing reservoir at 5,749,920 cubic feet, and it is capable of affording a supply of 138 cubic feet per minute for ten hours a day during eight months of the year. The value of this to each mill will be pro- portioned to the heights of the falls, which, as nea as I can learn, without making an actual survey, are as follows:– . & . & º << < * < º & . Name of the mill. º of Horse- Annual all. power. value. ft. in. £ s. Goose Eye Mill - - 30 9 4. 32 0 Turkey Paper - - 29 0 3# 30 8 Wood Mill - - 21 0 21%; 21 12 Holme Mill - - 21 4 2; 22 8 Hill Top Mill - - 9 0 11%; 8 16 Castle Mill - - 23 3 24 0 North Beck Mill- - 24 0 31%; 24 16 Becks Mill - - 14 8 2 16 0 Corn Mill - - 21 6 24 22 8 Hattersley's Mill- - 3 10 4 0 Cabbage Mill - - 16 0 2 16 0 Low Mill - - 20 0 2: 20 16 Strong Close Mill - 9 0 1.Tº 8 16 Stubbing House Mill - 14 0 l; 14 8 E266 8 “ This is in my opinion the most economical method “ of increasing the powers of the mills, and so long “ as there is any surplus water to be stored, it will “ always be worth the while of the millowners to “ construct additional reservoirs rather than resort “ to steam power. To Wm. Curry, Esq.” The above report supposes that the reservoir can contain all the water that falls, and that the reservoir is emptied 23 times every year, which is not the case, as is seen by the water which passes by when the reservoir is full. 14,017. The paper which you have read contains a tabulated list of the names of the mills, height of falls, horse power, and annual value. Is it the estimated value, or is it the actual rental that is paid 2–The rental is 112/. 14,018. What is the annual value that is put down 2 —I do not know. That is Mr. Lynde's estimate. It is all in Mr. Lynde's report. 14,019. The estimated value in the paper you have read is 266l. 8s. 0d. 2–Yes, according to Mr. Lynde's estimate. 14,020. And how much do you pay?–1121. is paid upon 12 mills. It would have been 120l., but two mills have ceased to use the water. That shows the actual value paid now. There are, as I have said, about 12 contributors at the present time. Since this report was made another mill has been built on the stream, and that pays 21. a year for taking water out of the beck for engine purposes. Those 12 mills now pay 112!. and a few shillings. That is the rental paid to the Duke of Devonshire. 14,021. It is a rental paid for the water that is turned down that stream?—Yes, the water is im- pounded, and we have the advantage of it. 14,022. Is it a rental for the land upon which the premises stand?—The reservoir occupies, I believe, 20 acres, and is built on land belonging to the Duke of Devonshire. 14,023. Does the rental paid for the water include any rental for land used at the mills —No, not at the mills. 14,024. It is simply for the water –Yes. 14,025. What is the depth of the bank —I cannot SaV. - º,026. With regard to the mill near to the town, do you use water or steam power there?–Steam power exclusively. - - 14,027. What do you manufacture there?—Worsted yarns and manufactured goods. Various textile fabrics. -- KEIGHLEY. Mr. J. Brigg. 28 Nov. 1866. 3 G 4 424 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 14,028. What number of hands do you employ - Perhaps 600. 14,629. What weight of coal do you burn per annum there –About 36 tons a week. 14,030. What do you do with the ashes 2–We contract with the Midland Railway Company to take them all ; we send them. 14,031. Do you at any time throw the ashes into the beck —No, we are too far away. 14,032. Which is the stream nearest to you ?—The North Beck. 14,033. Do you take water from that beck for engine purposes?-No, we get water from natural springs in my own ground. - - 14,034. Do you use water for washing wool and dyeing 2—Not for dyeing. - 14035. What sized pump do you use —I cannot state exactly. 14,036. Do you get all that water from springs on your own premises —Yes. 14,037. Does it go away from your premises pol- luted?–Only so far as it has gone through the boilers, nothing more. We have a reservoir at the lower mill to store spring water for the use of the engines. The stream is not sufficient without storage, the overflow from the reservoirs goes through my own lands into the beck. 14,038. Do you ever cleanse those reservoirs out? —No. 14,039. Do they never get silted up —No, we have never had them so. 14,040. What arrangement for privy accommoda- tion have you made for the hands employed at that mill 2–We have I do not know how many privies, not exactly common privies, because they have seats. They are more in the shape of waterclosets. The sewage is conveyed in iron pipes to one point, and there we have a strong waggon, made on purpose, which runs underneath and receives the contents of six or eight privies. 14,041. The refuse is carted away to the land 2– Yes, and we have a similar arrangement also in the sheds. 14,042. Do you mean the weaving sheds?—Yes, and in all cases there is not the slightest loss or leak- age from the privies, as we have wooden waggons sufficiently tight and strong to retain the whole of the liquid until they get full. Once a fortnight the sewage is all carted away on to our own land and laid up for manure, which we consider very valuable. 14,043. You have it taken on to your own land, and you consider it is beneficial for agricultural pur- oses 2–Yes. 14,044. You find that it pays you for the cost and trouble you have incurred —Yes, it costs us a good deal, but that is nothing in comparison with the accom- modation afforded by the privies, and the advantage we derive from applying it to our own land. 14,045. Do you use wool exclusively in your opera- tions at that mill ?—As far as spinning is concerned we use wool exclusively, but in the manufacture of textile fabrics we use silk and cotton. 14,046. Any shoddy ?—No. - 14,047. Is any shoddy used with the wool —No, I ihink not. I am not aware that any is used on this side of Bingley. 14,048. What engine power do you use at the lower mill ?—The estimated power is 50-horse, but it actually works up to 80-horse power. 14,049. That is by the pressure of steam and the method of working it —Yes. 14,050. Can you state the nominal horse power ?— 110, but we work the engines to do more than that. 14,051. Have you considered the question whether your steam power is as economical as your water power 2–Water power is much more economical where we can have a continuous flow of water. 14,052. You work on steadily, and you prefer water- power under those circumstances 2–Decidedly. 14,053. Is water power as good and as steady for the machinery —Equally so, for both water power and the steam engine are regulated by a governor. 14,054. If you could obtain all your power from water, you would prefer water to steam 2–Yes, but it is necessary to take into consideration that situation makes some difference. If at the place where my steam power works are I could have water, it would be a very great advantage. But steam power on a convenient site might be better than water power at a place in the country four or five miles away from the town, with bad roads. 14,055. If you had all the goods to cart to and from the upper mill you must take into account the situation ?–Yes, and the distance from a railway. 14,056. In what condition do you find the rivers and becks in and about this district, as compared with their condition when you first knew them ; have the beds been raised by floods –The beds of the becks near the town have been raised by accumulations. 14,057. Of what kind –The principal part of the accumulations in the beck originally came from digging out cellars, foundations from houses were so disposed of ; but as manufactories increased, and steam power increased, a very large quantity of engine ashes was produced; those engine ashes, generally speaking, found their way into the beck. Some parties would pur- chase land with a fall a short distance from the beck, or immediately on it, and would deposit their ashes there to be carried away when a flood came. 14,058. They considered the beck the proper place to take their ashes to from their premises —Yes, and no attempt was made to prevent it until in recent ears. 14,059. The parties considered it an advantage to be in a position where they could so dispose of their ashes –Yes, but that was some time ago; more re- cently they have not been doing so. 14,060. At the present time do any parties within your knowledge put their ashes into the beck 2–1 believe that nobody does it now, but I do not think I am a good authority for that. 14,061. Have you any jurisdiction over streams or becks to prevent that pollution, or have any cases been brought before you ?–Yes. 14,062. Have you power to interfere?—Yes, under the Local Government Act we have. A case occurred not long ago, and an appeal was made to the Court of Queen's Bench against our decision. The decision come to by the magistrates was reversed. 14,063. Have any complaints been made with re- gard to the becks outside the district under the local board —I do not remember one, a great many of the mills in the district are within the borough. 14,064. In the event of the legislature passing any measure to prevent this abuse and pollution of streams, does your experience enable you to give us any opinion as to whether or not it would come within the range of your duties to prevent pollutions by means of the police 2–Yes, I think it might. 14,065. How far does your jurisdiction extend ?— Over the whole area, within a radius of six miles from this place. It is rather a division of a wapentake, it was formed when I was put on the commission of the peace. 14,066. For what purpose was that circle so laid down –Simply for the convenience of the public, we take a certain portion of the wapentake. 14,067. Are all your decisions given in that district subject to revision by a larger section of the magistracy of the riding 2–In cases of felony etc., the petty ses- sional magistrates cannot imprison, but the prisoners are sent to the quarter sessions, and then are tried before a jury. We are one division out of 25 divisions in the West Riding of Yorkshire, and we have over 50,000 inhabitants. 14,068. Do you use soap in your manufactures to any extent?—We use a washing material. We wash the wool, but we use very little of what is commonly known as soap, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 425 14,069. What do you use –We use oil and alkalies as a substitute for soap. 14,070. What weight do you use of those materials in a week?—We use a ton per week; after the washing has been done the liquid is filtered and the solid part thrown down. 14,071. By Teall's process —I do not know ex- actly who the patentee is. We are paid according to the number of packs of soap consumed. The lessees have a reservoir where the waste liquid is impounded. 14,072. Do you know what number of packs of soap you use in a week —We use I believe a ton of Soap. 14,073. What sum do you receive for the recovered material?—I think it is about 4s: 6d. for each pack consumed and a pack means 240 lbs. 14,074. You are put to no cost 2–No. - 14,075. Have you to find room for the tanks on your premises?—Yes, the liquid is impounded there. They purify it, and then they cart the scum that rises to the surface away from our works. down to the works where they take all the refuse, and I suppose the works are just below this town, near the railway station. - 14,076. How long has this operation been carried on of extracting this material from soap waste?—In this district for perhaps seven or ten years. 14,077. Do all manufacturers who use soap save the refuse soapsuds and have them treated in a similar way ?—I suppose they do, because it costs them nothing. 14,078. Do you know what income it produces you per annum ?—No, I do not. 14,079. (Professor Way.) 120l. or 130l. a year — I should say 130l. a year. 14,080. (Chairman.) They take away what they like and leave what they like –They take away all the solid matter, and put the suds into a large cistern ; after the suds have stood a certain time they put in a quantity of acid, which brings on to the surface perhaps three or four inches of thick greasy matter, that is put into a cart and taken away, and passed through some process which I do not understand. 14,081. What is done with the waste water –It runs down through the land, and eventually gets into the beck. 14,082. Does it pass on to the land for irrigation purposes —Yes. - 14,083–4. And helps to grow grass?—Yes, a certain amount of sediment lodges in the open drain. 14,085. Do you attempt to put the waste liquid over the surface of the land to irrigate it?—One of our men does it regularly. 14,086. He irrigates his grass land with it —Yes, he diverts the sud-refuse out of the watercourse. 14,087. (Mr. Harrison.) After an acid has been used ?–Yes. 14,088. (Chairman.) You get out the solids and use that for manure ?–Yes; there is a certain amount of sediment that lodges in the drain as it runs down, aſter the greasy matter has been taken from it; that drain is opened and cleaned out, and then the sedi- ment is thrown on to the land; in other cases one of our men diverts the water over his land and spreads it over the land. - 14,089. And it does not injure it 2–No; he con- tinues to do it, so I suppose it does not. 14,090. (Mr. Harrison.) By the time the water is discharged into the river is it purified ?–It is not per- ſectly clear, it is a little discoloured; but it has nothing like the appearance of the suds that come from the washing machine. - 14,091. (Professor Way.) You stated that you did not buy any soap ; are the articles that you spoke of viz., grease and alkali, boiled in a copper at your works 2–Yes. 14,092. Then you make soap, you do not buy it?— Yes. 14,093. (Chairman.) During the last flood did you sustain any injury —Yes, a little at the water-mill. 17159.-2, They take it be of the same value, but it is not. 14,094. Was any injury done at your lower mill?— Not at all; we are quite above these floods. 14,095. Did you notice the condition of the valley of the Aire; was much injury done by the flood in the valley below you?—I live to the west, and I went on to the hill, and I saw the valley all covered with water; at least there was a large quantity of water looking like a sea. On the day following I rode down a road which had been covered by the flood; the water had washed wails down, which it had not done for many years before; but I have seen that done many times when there has been a higher flood on that road. I think there was more water in the river this time than before ; and the reason was, that in taking the Stockbridge dam stones down they had reduced the level of the water under the bridge 5 feet, and consequently caused more water to go down the Aire. 14,096. Do you think that this last flood was as large a flood as you can ever recollect –Yes, it was in volume of water, but it did not cross the road so much as I have seen a flood do, and the reason of that was the removal of the dam stones at Stockbridge about a year ago. - 14,097. (Mr. Harrison.) Is there much water-power in Keighley —Not very much ; there are three or four water-wheels, but not many; the larger proportion of the propelling power is steam. 14,098. It was stated yesterday in evidence that the bed of the Worth had been raised four or five feet within the memory of inhabitants?—Yes, it has been consider- ably raised, but I have not noticed it myself. I have not sustained any injury oy it. - 14,099. Do you know whether the water-power at Keighley has been much injured by the filling up of the bed of the Worth 2–Yes, as in the case of what is called Cabbage Mill. The accumulations were allowed to go on in the Worth there until they actually raised the bed of the river so high that the water could not empty itself out of the goit from the water-wheel, and that water-wheel is standing still to this day. 14,100. What power might they have had formerly at that mill?—I have no idea. At another place they made a weir down the centre of the beck, and of course that has preserved them a good deal; the tail-goit is open, and when there is a flood it overflows it; when there is a moderate flood the tail-goit empties itself two feet lower than the bed of the river. 14,101. Have you observed whether the water which passes through the town appears in a dry season to be diminished in consequence of the filling up of the bed” —I have not. I think that the accumulations in the stream have not yet diverted the stream from its natural course. I am not aware of any instance of that kind. 14,102. What do you consider in the neighbourhood of Keighley is the relative value of water-power and steam-power —Where there is a full supply of water water-power is equal in value to steam-power of the same horse-power; but there are very few instances where that is so. Water-power would not let for so much, because there is the danger of short water, and upon the whole a man would not trust to water-power as being as regular as steam-power. 14,103. If you were taking a mill, at what would you put the relative value?—I have no idea; but per- haps 15/. per horse-power. 14,104. How much would you set down for water- power –If it could be as constant as steam it would Its value de- pends entirely upon what water they do get, conse- quently it is a matter of speculation. 14,105. What do you reckon that your steam-power costs you in coal and interest on capital laid out on machinery and in repairs per annum ?–1 do not know what a steam-engine is considered to consist of ; the first moving shaft is considered the freehold of the place; all the rest of the steam-engine is mechanical. 14,106. How would water-power be rated in this neighbourhood as compared with steam-power in de- termining the rateable value of the horse-power-by the shafting –I cannot answer that question ; but I 3 H REIGHILEY. Mr. J. Brigg. 28 Nov. 1866. 426 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. believe that an estimate of so much per floor and so much per horse-power is made, and so the rateable value of the premises is ascertained. 14,107. Is there anything further that you wish to add 2–There is a reservoir that has been alluded to : that reservoir has been made 28 years, and it has been inspected by Mr. Lynde. After the Holm Firth flood the Government sent down an inspector, and he went to Holm Firth to ascertain the cause of that disaster ; from there he came to Keighley to examine this reser- voir; he made a minute inspection of it, and said that it was most perfect and safe, that the foundation was upon a rocky material. There is a pitched front, with large rubble stones; the by-wash is 16 yards wide, and during the flood on Friday the water did not cover the whole of the by-wash ; about 2 o'clock it ran over about 6 inches, and from 3 to 4 o'clock it ran over 9 inches; the top of the high-water level is 5 feet below the bank, the by-wash is 5 feet below the embankment itself, and upon that embankment is a 4-feet wall besides; a wave came and dashed the spray over the 5 feet, and threw it over on the other side; we put a wall there to prevent the spray going over, and after the flood I went to see, and not a stone was in the least moved. 14,108. Is the water drawn to the bottom of the bank out of an iron pipe, or out of a stone culvert – An iron pipe. Suppose this was the inside of the bank (describing); formerly we had a pipe that came through the bank, and we let the water out at the low end ; but that was not safe, as some of the joints might give way in the centre of the bank from the pressure of the water; we therefore drew the dam out and put a sluice or clough inside, so that we have no water in the pipes, excepting when we draw it ; the clough is worked by large rods on the top of the bank, and now I have as much confidence in the security of that bank as I have in my own house. The witness withdrew. Mr. RICHARD L. HATTERSLEY (Keighley) examined. 14,109. (Chairman.) You are a member of a firm of machine makers ?—Yes. 14,110. What machines do you make –Principally power looms. 14,111. For Worsted. - 14,112. Where are your works situated 2–0n the North Beck. 14,113. Are they above or below the town – Nearly in the centre of the town. 14,114. What area of ground do your works cover ? —Perhaps 3,000 square yards. 14,115. What length of frontage on the beck have you ?—Nearly 100 yards. - 14,116. Do you own both sides of the beck –The beck runs the whole length of the old premises, and partly underneath; then there is a road down the other side of the beck, and we have other buildings on the other side of the road. 14,117. Do you consider that that portion of the beck which flows through your premises belongs to you ?—Yes. - 14,118. Have you put any arches over it —Yes, we have buildings over the beck. 14,119. Then it runs entirely under certain build- ings?—Yes, entirely under buildings. 14,120. How long have your works been there 2– Some portion of them have been there for 60 years, I think. 14,121. How long have you known the beck or the works –I have never lived anywhere else. I have been in the place 32 years, and more than that. 14,122. Do you think that the bed of the beck has risen during that period of time —Yes, opposite to our premises. - 14,123. Have you tried to keep it down 2–Not particularly, except in a time of flood ; in the last flood we did not take any steps. 14,124. Have you at any time suffered from flood- ing?—No, I do not know that we have. 14,125. Did you suffer during the last flood?—I do not know that we did. 14,126. Do you use engine power —Yes, exclu- sively. - 14,127. What weight of coal do you burn per annum ?–From 800 to 900 tons. 14,128. What do you do with the ashes –We put them principally into the beck course, and we cart part of them away. - - - 14,129. Do you put them principally into the beck —Yes, not entirely. 14,130. Have you ever seen the notice issued by the Board of Health against that practice –Yes. 14,131. Have you paid any attention to it —Not much. 14,132. Supposing a restriction was put upon you, and you were told that you were not to put ashes into the beck any more, what would you do ?—Our place the manufacture of woollens?— is a very awkward place, and we have to lead the ashes to the land if we cart them away, therefore it is a great convenience to us to be able to put them into the beck; we do not make a very great quantity, I think about 6 cwt. a day. 14,133. Whether the quantity be large or small, if all persons were to be restrained from putting ashes into the rivers and streams, do you think you would escape –Certainly not. 14,134. What would it cost you to take the ashes away a year 2–It would cost 40l. or 50l. to cart away all the refuse that we make; what we make in the foundry we do not put into the beck at all. 14,135. Do you use water for any purpose but för the boilers ?—Yes, we use water for turning the iron, that is, for grinding. 14,136. Not any large quantity, I suppose –No. 14,137. You do not foul the water very much – No, 14,138. Do you take water out of the beck and send it back again after you have used it —Yes. 14,139. How many men do you employ —About 250. 14,140. Have you any privy accommodation on the premises —Yes, 14,141. Where does the refuse go 2–Part of it goes into the beck, and part does not. Part goes on to the land ; we cart it away every week or fortnight. 14,142. Do you think it would be difficult to keep all the privy refuse out of the beck 2–Yes, because on the old premises we have no yard. 14,143. You occupy all the ground, do you?—Yes, and the refuse has gone into the beck ever since I knew it. 14,144. Have you seen or heard of the newly invented earth closets, which is an arrangement in the shape of a watercloset, only dry earth is used in place of water –I have not seen them, unless I once saw one at Blackburn. 14,145. Supposing it was proved to you that without altering your privies you might introduce one of these contrivances and intercept all the solid refuse and take it away, should you consider it a great hardship to be compelled to do so?–No, I do not think it would be a hardship ; we should not object. 14,146. Has the beck ever been filled in at all by refuse thrown in at any other point than opposite to your premises?–Just below our premises there is a dam stone and a mill, now given up, and I believe the beck course is wrecked up from this dam stone to the one below. I do not think the same is the case either above or below. 14,147. Did you hear the evidence that was given yesterday —Yes. - 14,148. Did you hear that some of the drains were choked up in consequence of the bed of the beck having been raised ?–Yes, from 4 to 5 feet, in that part which the witness alluded to. There is a bridge RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 427 perhaps 200 or 300 yards below our place, and this morning we measured 4 feet 9 inches from the beck course to the under side of the crown of the arch. 15 years ago a flood carried away a boiler from the side of the stream, and it passed under that bridge with some difficulty, but that boiler was 6 feet 6 inches in diameter. 14,149. I suppose it could not go through now 2– No, because there is only a space of 4 feet 9 inches; that is the average space; the bed has risen there. After the flood we could not see how the boiler had gone underneath, for it appeared larger than the space there was for it, but the boiler did go through, and it rested on the low side of the bridge. 14,150. Do you think that the boiler from blocking the archway up caused the water to scour out the beck, and so was forced through —I think that the boiler ploughed its way under the bridge, and so went through. 14,151. (Professor Way.) The bed of the river would fill up afterwards, would it not, as the flood subsided ?–Yes, but that was not so heavy a flood as the recent one, nothing like it. 14,152. Do you think that the floods are as heavy now as they were when you first knew the beck – Yes, the last one has been as heavy as any I have Seen. 14,153. Are you aware that many persons have had their cottages flooded ?–No ; a few below were flooded, two or three, just below the bridge. 14,154. And other premises 2–Yes, the water came over the bridge there. - 14,155. You have stated that it would cost you about 40l. or 50l. to cart away the ashes, would that be a very serious matter to you?–Only to that amount. 14,156. You say that you employ 250 men —Yes. 14,157. May I put the expense at about 11, a week 2 —Yes. 14,158. Then it would be about a penny per head of your men –Yes, 14,159. It would be the same thing to you as if you raised the wages a penny per head to all of your work- men P-Yes, about that amount. 14,160. I suppose a sum like 40/. or 50l. is not very serious outlay for the benefit of the public – No, it is not a very large expense. I do not believe that the filling up of the beck course where it has taken place is due to anything that millowners cast in at present. I do not think that there is a large amount of ashes in that part of the beck course which is filled up ; I believe it consists principally of stones and gravel, and diggings of foundations. 14,161. Do you think that diggings from foundations should be allowed to pass in as heretofore ?—Not if the beck course is not to be filled up. 14,162. If diggings from foundations do fill up the beck course, do you think that ashes have no tendency to do the same?—They must fill it up, certainly, but I believe that they are taken to a greater distance than the other refuse is. - 14,163. Are you aware that the last flood has done an enormous amount of damage all the way down the valley —I believe it has. 14,164. That it has flooded land and premises to an extent that has scarcely ever been remembered before? —Yes, I believe so. 14,165. And that to estimate the loss sustained along the valley, you must measure by scores of thousands of pounds –Yes, I am aware of that. 14,166. Considering these things, that this town and all places above it—Todmorden, for instance—have thrown for the last half century thousands of tons of solid refuse into the streams, do you not think that the flood has come like a punishment upon them — No. 14,167. Taking the broadest view of the case, should you say that it would be right for the Government to allow things to go on as they have been, and permit persons who may say that they would find a difficulty in doing otherwise to throw ashes and other refuse into the streams ?—I do not think that ashes are much detrimental in this district ; I do not see where they have caused much damage, if any. 14,168. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you been down the stream to see whether any damage had been done below 2–Yes; I have been down the river Aire from this place, and I cannot see from my observation that the beck course has been filled up below the dam stone next but one below us. - 14,169. Then you must go down to where the Aire and where the Calder are navigable 2–I do not know much about the river Aire below. 14,170. (Chairman.) Assuming that beck courses are filled up by the wrack which is brought down by the floods and the gravel, do you think it is desirable that this state of things should be continued, and that it should be no person's duty to keep such matters out?–Certainly whatever fills up the river course below would do injury. - 14,171. There is a beck course not many miles below Keighley, and it is clear that the bed of the beck is three or four feet above the level of the adjoining land 2–I have not seen anything of that sort ; there is nothing of that sort in our beck, but that is caused by engine ashes, and I do not know whose business it is to rectify that. 14,172. Would it not be a benefit to everybody if it was somebody’s business to rectify that state of things?—Certainly I should think so. - 14,173. Are you aware that a rough estimate has been made, showing that more money has been lost in one week by the flood than, if properly laid out, would have put the river into such a condition as to have prevented the evil effects of such a flood 2–Yes, I have no doubt of it. 14,174. It is estimated that more than 50,000l. worth of damage has been done at Leeds?—I do not think, so far as we are concerned, that we shall object to do what we can to remedy the evils existing in our own district, but we do dislike to be the one party to be picked out and told not to do what other people are allowed to do. - 14,175. if you were all put under the same regu- lation you think you would comply with it?–De- cidedly. 14,176. You would then feel that you were not being punished exceptionally, or from party spite – Certainly. 14,177. Is there anything further that you wish to add to your evidence?—I think not. We think that if the sewage was kept out of the watercourses in our district the water would be as pure as ever it was. 14,178. And you would be benefited to that extent? —Certainly; the smell of the flood that came down was not at all agreeable. The witness withdrew. Mr. Edward Town END (Cullingworth) examined, 14,179. (Chairman.) Are you a worsted spinner * —Yes. 14,180. Where is your mill situated?—At Culling- worth, one of them. 14,181. On what stream?—The Cullingworth Beck. 14,182. Into what river does it fall 2–It falls into the Harden Beck, and that falls into the river Aire. 14,183. How far are you in a right line across from the Aire P-Three miles. 14,184. Do you use steam power or water power —I use both. 14,185. What amount of water power do you use 2 —We have four mills. 14,186. On that beck?–No, only one on the Cul- lingworth Beck. 14,187. Where are the other three?—One is on Ellar Carr Beck, which flows also into the Harden Beck 14,188. Have you any names for the mills —Yes. KEIGHLEY. --- Mr. R. J. Hattersley. 28 Nov. 1866. Mr. E. Townend. 3 H2 428 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 14,189. Will you name one 2–The largest one is Cullingworth Mill. 14,190. And the next 7–The next is “ The little mill” at Cullingworth. 14,191. What is the next 2–The next is Woodfield Mill, and the next is Ellar Carr Mill. 14,192. What is the manufacture at the Cullingworth Mill –Spinning and combing. 14,193. What number of hands do you employ — We employ about 1,000 in that mill, or nearly so. 14,194. Do you employ engine power ?—There is no water power at the Cullingworth Mill. 14,195. What weight of coal do you burn in a year 2 —At all the mills we burn (including what is required for the steam engines) about 120 tons of coal a week. 14,196. What business is carried on at the little mill?—Spinning, exclusively. 14,197. What is done at the Woodfield Mill ?— Solely weaving. 14,198. And at Ellar Carr Mill –Weaving only. 14,199. At which of the mills do you use water power –At the Ellar Carr Mill we use partly water and partly steam power. 14,200. What amount of water power do you use ? —It is rather irregular, but I think it is about 8-horse. 14,201. Are you on the Bradford Waterworks stream 2–No. 14,202. Do you use soap at your mills?—At Cul- lingworth we do. 14,203. What number of hands do you employ altogether ?—I should think about 1,200 altogether, but I cannot speak to within 50. 14,204. That is at the four mills 2–Yes. 14,205. Are they all engaged in the worsted busi- ness 2–Yes. 14,206. What privy-accommodation have you for your hands 2—There are separate privies at each mill, and the sewage is all taken out and mixed with ashes, which we collect from the cottages. 14,207. You do not pollute the stream 2–Not at all by the privies. 14,208. Do you use much water for washing the worsted 2–Yes, and we take it from a reservoir at Cullingworth Mill. 14,209. Of what area is that reservoir 2–It is about 60 or 70 yards square. 14,210. Does it receive water from springs?–Yes, and from the drainage of the hills and the roads. 14,211. Is that sufficient for all your washing pur- poses —Yes, except in extreme droughts. In the summers of 1864 and 1865 we were very nearly standing still at the works for want of water, and we were put to considerable expense for washing. We resorted to a spring which we had in a field near to the works, and we conveyed the water from that spring into the works through a pipe. 14,212. How much water do you use daily in the washing process —I cannot tell. 14,213. What sized pipe does the water flow through 2–It is a 6-inch pipe. 14,214. Does it get full —No, half full; but the water is not continuously running. 14,215. What weight of soap, or an equivalent for soap, do you use for washing —My evidence upon that point would be the same as Mr. Briggs'. 14,216. How many packs do you use in a week 2 —About 12 packs, - 14,217. Is the grease afterwards extracted ?–Yes. 14,218. Is that done by yourselves, or do you lease it?—By ourselves. It is treated on Messrs. Teall’s system. 14,219. (Professor Way.) Do you pay a royalty to them 2–No. 14,220. Is it treated by heat at all ?—Yes. Ishould mention that in the first instance we let our suds to Messrs. Teall for several years, and then they gave it up, and we took to it ourselves. 14,221. You carry out the process up to the point of squeezing out the grease ?—Yes. 14,222. Do you sell the grease ?—Yes. 14,223. To Messrs. Teall?—No. 14,224. What quantity of grease do you extract per week?—I think we extract about a ton and a half per week. - 14,225. I think you stated that you pursue the same system as Mr. Briggs, and make the "soap your- selves 2–Yes, we do. 14,226. Do you make it caustic —Yes. 14,227. Do you use potash and soda —Both. I think we buy soap as well. 14,228. How much oil do you buy in a week 2–I think we buy a ton of oil in a week, or perhaps In OI’e. 14,229. You use a ton and a half of grease. How much do you get back —I cannot say from memory, but I think it is from one to two tons a week of different material. 14,230. What do you sell it for 2–About 171, or 18/, a ton, but I am speaking entirely from memory. Then there are the expenses. I think we make some- thing like from 2007, to 300l. a year profit out of the process. 14,231. (Chairman.) You convert so much of it into useful material?—Yes, every ounce of it that we can, but we cannot treat all the waste liquid so. 14,232. (Professor Way.) What did Messrs. Teall pay you for the right of extracting grease ?—I think they paid us 5/. a ton, but then we found the steam. 14,233. Then you got nearly as much profit as you do now, without the trouble, except that you found the steam 2–Yes, we found the building and all the apparatus. 14,234. Then they gave you nearly as much as they could afford to give you ?—I suppose so, but we would not allow it to be done any more. 14,235. If you only make 300l. a year now, and you use a ton a week, at 5l. a ton they would have paid you 250l. 2–I do not think there was so much as a ton a week. 14,236. The difference between what you paid and what you make now may be considered as their profit? —Yes, I consider that we make 100l. more of it than we did. 14,237. Do you treat all the soap liquor 2–Yes, the whole of it from the works which are in a position to admit of the liquor running into tanks. At one portion of the works we cannot get the soapsuds into tanks, and those soapsuds go into the stream, and have done so for 50 years past. 14,238. As you arrive at the last part of the process of washing the wool and the worsted, the water, I suppose, gets tolerably pure. Does it all go through the process for grease extraction ?–Yes, all of it. 14,239. Not merely the best part of the waste liquor but the whole of it?—Yes, it can go no other way but through the tank. 14,240. When it is collected there, and acids are added, a settlement takes place, and a scum is formed? —Yes, it is broken with sulphuric acid. 14,241. Is the liquid tolerably clear —It is not clear when it runs away. We run it on to filtering beds. 14,242. Does that operation clear it?—Yes. 14,243. What passes away –It is the liquid, after the grease has been broken. 14,244. I suppose there is still some grease in it —Yes, we do not get all the grease out. 14,245. Do the ashes after a time block up 2–Yes. We have large tanks about the size of this table, and the depth of the area filled in with ashes is twice the size of this table. The tank is 16 or 18 feet long, about two yards wide and one yard deep. 14,246. The tanks are filled ?–Yes, and whenever the liquid is let out from the grease-house tanks it runs through pipes on to filtering beds, which are beds of ashes of considerable thickness, from about 12 to 15 feet thick, of solid ashes, which we take from the engine-boilers. 14,247. How do you get those ashes into the tanks 2 —The tanks are made in the ashes. 14,248. How long will it be before these ash-beds choke 2–We clean them out perhaps once a month. RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 429 14,249. Do you keep up the same sides to them, or do you make new ones?—No, we just clean them out. The sides stand; we clean them out, and then we throw the stuff on to the side, and lead it to the land about once a month. 14,250. Is the water that comes away tolerably clear?—As clear as gin, quite clear. 14,251. What quantity of acid do you use in the course of a year?—I cannot speak to that. 14,252. Do you use oil of vitriol –Yes. 14,253. Do you know the quantity of wool that you wash in a year?—We wash about 120 packs a week. 14,254. How much soap do you buy —About 12 packs a week. 14,255. Including what you make 2–Yes, what we make with the oil. 14,256. If it could be shown by the figures you give that you do not get all the grease out, I suppose if it could be done it would be worth doing —Yes, and we should be very glad to do it. 14,257. Do you use the grease over again?—No. 14,258. You do not make soap of it again?–No. 14,259. Supposing you used a certain quantity of soap, containing so much grease, and a certain quantity of oil, every week, do you fancy that you get anything like that quantity back again in weight —I should think not. 14,260. (Mr. Harrison.) You say that the water comes away from the ashes very bright and clear, but do you find that nearly the same quantity passes away into the brook as you used in the first instance —No, because there is very great evaporation in the boiling tanks. 14,261. Afterwards, in passing through the filtering heds, is there much loss from evaporation ?–Yes. 14,262. In some places the quantity of water taken from a brook for such purposes affects the power at the mills below, and the millowners below are very tenacious of any abstraction of water which is not returned to the brook. As affecting the question of water power, what may be the loss between what you take out and what you restore to the brook 2–I could only make a mere guess. 14,263. I presume the quantity must be very much diminished 2–Yes, there is no question about that. It is used in the steam engines as well as in the boilers. 14,264. The Doe Park reservoir is not I believe on your stream —No, the water from that goes into the Harden Beck, a little below the point where our stream oes in. 14,265. (Chairman.) You were defendant I believe in the recent suit of Ferrand v. Townend ?—Yes. 14,266. What was the cause of the proceedings in that case ?—The plaintiff alleged that I polluted the stream by letting the water out of the Cullingworth reservoir. 14,267. Do you mean the reservoir where you impound the water —Yes. 14,268. The pollution was caused by letting out the mud —Yes. 14,269. Was the complaint confined entirely to pol- lution by mud 2–Ultimately it was so. He alleged that it killed his fish. 14,270. How has that suit terminated 2–We have got all our rights, but we have been saddled with costs I am afraid. 14,271. Did not that case involve the question of polluting the stream by soap waste?—That question was brought in in the proceedings, but it ultimately turned almost upon the point I have mentioned, the flushing of the reservoir. 14,272. When was judgment pronounced in that case ?—About three weeks ago. 14,273. At what date –I cannot say. 14,274. What is the effect of the decision ?—The effect of the decision is that we are to treat the stream as we had hitherto done up to 1864, and that is as much as we ever wished to do. 14,275. But I suppose you are not again to flush the reservoir into it?—Yes, we are. 14,276. And to foul the stream again –Yes. 14,277. And to kill the fish again –Yes. 14,278. Was the great point in this case that you allowed a large quantity of mud to collect, and you then sent it down in a large body, and is this the result, that you are to be permitted to flush it from time to time more frequently, instead of at longer intervals —There is no restriction put upon us what- ever, but that we are only to do what we had done up to that time. We had been accustomed for 50 years to flush the reservoir out every year, and we had always done it at what is called “Bingley tide,” that is at the time of a holiday. 14,279. (Professor Way.) How long have you been in the habit of filtering the water through ashes after separating the grease ?—Ever since we began the operations, six or seven years ago. 14,280. Did you discontinue that practice at any time 2—No. 14,281. Was not that one of the complaints made by Mr. Ferrand 2–I think not. 14,282. Not that you had left off doing something which you had done before to purify the water —I think not. 14,283. (Mr. Harrison). Is the mud which you pass out from the reservoir brought down the stream from above your works —Yes. 14,284. It does not come from your works —Not at all. A great portion of it comes from the sewage of the village and some tanyards and collieries above us. Those remain, and in 12 months our reservoir will be 18 inches deep in mud, but we do not put an ounce in ourselves. 14,285. (Chairman.) Before whom was this suit tried ?–Before Sir John Stuart. 14,286. At what date?—About three weeks ago. 14,287. Have you any idea what the cost of that suit was to you ?–No. 14,288. (Mr. Harrison.) You have been put to this expense in consequence of nuisances caused by persons situated above you. If there had been a law to prevent them passing sewage into the beck, your reservoir would not have been polluted, and you would not have been subjected to a lawsuit *—That is so. A great deal of pollution comes from the roads as well as from the cottages in the village, and ashes that are washed off the roads. 14,289. (Chairman.) Do you know whether it is the practice of any manufacturers on any parts of the stream above you to put ashes into the becks?— There are no mills above us. 14,290. Are you at all affected by floods 2—Yes. 14,291. Do tanners put any waste materials into the streams ?—Yes. 14,292. Does that practice injuriously affect the water for your purposes 2–Yes. 14,293. Have you had any difficulty with tanners with regard to pollutions?—We have remonstrated with them, and one of them has given the practice up In OW. - 14,294. Is there any person below you who is liable to be affected by your operations –Yes, there are some mills below us, between Cullingworth and Bingley, worsted spinning manufactories. 14,295. Do they use the water as you use it 2–Yes. 14,296. Have you had any difficulty with them about the water P-When we let out Ellar Carr dam, soon after we bought it, there was a deal of mud in it, and it filled up our neighbour's dam, and he said that we ought to help him to defray part of the cost incurred in getting it out again. 14,297. Did you do so?–Yes, we did. We were disposed to be friendly with our neighbour, and did not wish to go to litigation. 14,298. Have you formed any opinion as to whether it is advisable to have any sort of conservancy for the management of rivers and streams, to prevent pollution and to settle disputes without great cost –Yes, and I think it would be well if it could be arranged. 14,299. Do you think that there might be an ar- rangement so that any difference between neighbours, KEIGHLEY. Mr. E. Townend. 28 Nov. 1866. 3 H 3 430 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. as between you and Mr. Ferrand, for example, might be settled without great costs – Yes. 14,300. Is there any tribunal with more simple ma- chinery that you might have gone before to settle the matter 2–I should think there is, certainly ; a common action would have been much more simple. 14,301. How long were those proceedings pending 2 —They began in 1864. 14,302. And you only obtained a decision three weeks ago?—That was about the time. 14,303. You were in litigation for two years?— Yes. 14,304. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you think it would be any hardship to call upon all manufacturers to purify their soapsuds to the extent that you do?—Not at all. I consider that it would be a benefit to them. 14,305. Not merely the first process, as practised by Le Page and Company, but the second process of filtering the soapsuds through ashes?—Yes; but I do not think there is any profit to be made by the second process. - 14,306. Can it be done without actual loss 2–I think there is a loss in it, because we do not get as much tillage by it as the labour is worth. 14,307. (Professor Way.) But the stream would be benefited 2–Yes, considerably. 14,308. (Mr. Harrison.) It would be no hardship to call upon all manufacturers to do the same as you do?—No, it would be a benefit to them if they had convenience for it, it depends a great deal upon that. We are well situated, and have laid out much money. 14,309. (Chairman.) You have striven to keep your own premises in good order, and to keep the stream pure ?–Yes. 14,310. Do you think you have succeeded ?–Yes; we have done it for the sake of profit and our own convenience. We have land below, and we do not want to foul the stream. 14,311. Yet you have been punished in the shape of law costs more than many men who pollute the streams much worse 2–Yes, ten times worse. 14,312. (Mr. Harrison.) You have suffered from the pollutions of others?—Yes. I wish to add this, that the streams in our neighbourhood are more pol- luted from other sources than from our works. I mean by refuse from cottages, and by the general drainage of the country roundabout, and from the roads. We do not put five per cent of the pollutions into the stream that we did 30 years ago. - - 14,313. (Professor Way.) Do you think that that is commonly the case with manufacturers ?–By no In Can S. 14,314. (Mr. Harrison.) Would the water that issues from your ash filters be suitable for the purposes of the mills below you?–Yes, certainly, for any purpose whatever, for dyeing. 14,315. (Professor Way.) Do the ashes make the water hard’—I am not aware that they do ; we have had the water analysed. - 14,316. (Chairman.) What kind of dye do you use –We only dye blacks. 14,317. Do you use indigo 2–No. 14,318. (Professor Way.) Do you dye with log- wood and campeachy –Yes, and copperas. 14,319. Does the dye waste pass through ashes as well ?–Yes. 14,320. Does the water come away clear 2–Yes. That we have done for a few years back ; we used to put it all into the stream, but not since 1854. 14,321. Is that waste filtered in the same filter beds 2 -No, the soapsuds and dye waste are kept separate from each other. 14,322. Is the bed raised very considerably by that dye waste -No ; we clean out the filter for the dye waste just the same as the other filter. 14,323. But I suppose there is a good deal more refuse to clean out —No ; we mix the refuse up with the ashes for the land, although we do not think there is any great value in the mixture so produced. 14,324. Has the dye waste ever been tried by itself? —I do not know. - 14,325. Does it not contain a quantity of iron?— 14,326. Is not that injurious to land 2–I do not think it is, but we have never tried it separately. 14,327. I suppose that stuff is much of the same nature as the dye that is fixed in the cloth itself?—I think so. - 14,328. It is not worth anything for any practical purpose –I believe not, but we have never tried it : we never thought there was any value in it; we never tried the liquid upon the land. - 14,329. Does the water run away quite clear from the beds?—Yes. I suppose that we can turn it into the stream after the decision that was pronounced, if we like. The witness withdrew. Mr. THOMAS BRIGG LAYCOCK (Keighley) examined. 14,330. (Chairman.) You are a worsted manufac- turer 2–Yes. 14,331. Where are your works situated 2 – At Bingley. 14,332. You are a member of the Bingley Improve- ment Commission ?—Yes. 14,333. What number of hands do you employ at your works —About 200. 14,334. Are your works situated upon any stream or beck –They adjoin the canal. 14,335. What canal?—The Leeds and Liverpool Canal. 14,336. Do you get your water from that canal?— Yes, 14,337. Do you use engine power –Steam power. 14,338. What weight of coal do you use in a year 2 —Taking the year round, about eight tons per week. 14,339. What becomes of the ashes —They are led away. 14,340. At what cost to yourselves?—I do not know. I keep a horse, and I have them led away for. 1s. 6d. a week, or 6d. a cartload ; we have convenient places near. 14,341. What kind of accommodation have you for your hands –We have privies outside the building, with doors opening into the interior. 14,342. What becomes of the refuse º-It goes into a cesspool, and we lead it away in barrels about once in three weeks, when the cesspool is full. We mix the refuse with gravel or soil, and use it as manure. 14,343. What volume of water do you use on your premises —I do not know. 14,344. Where do you get it from ?—The canal. 14,345. What do you pay the owners of the canai for it –6!, a year, and we turn the water back into the canal. 14,346. Do you use any soap 2–No ; we do not pollute the water. 14,347. You take it out and use it for engine power and send it back again P-Yes. 14,348. Is there any water supply for Bingley — We have a supply now, but previously to 1862 water was supplied by Mr. Ferrand solely. In 1862 the Commissioners purchased the right of Mr. Ferrand, and agreed with him for 30 years' supply of water, 10 years at 500l. a year, and 20 years at 600l. a year. That agreement is now in operation. For the con- struction of these waterworks the place is rather convenient. We have seven springs in three different directions, but we are not obliged to carry the works through any other person's property except Mr. Fer- rand's. The arrangement is between him and the Commissioners, and is free from difficulty. - 14,349. What is the population of Bingley –About 6,000. - RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 431 14,350. What is its rateable value –I think about 10,000l. 14,351. Is Bingley sewered 2–It is. 14,352. Where do the sewers empty themselves *- Into the river Aire. 14,353. Has there been complaint made by anyone of a nuisance having been caused by that 2–I do not know that there has been. Mr. Ferrand has men- tioned the matter to me. I should mention that we have made a tunnel (for it is very peculiar ground for drainage, in fact the worst possible ground, for it has high and low levels), there is a plot of over three acres adjoining the canal, and this ground is lower than the canal bank, it fronts the canal for 240 yards, and one-third, I should say, or one-fourth of Bingley drains into this place. The main sewer runs down along the canal bank, and when it was open in the summer time it was not fit for anyone to pass along the canal bank ; it was an open cesspool and exposed to the weather. The Commissioners took the matter up, and they made a drain under the town, which cost something like 1,100l., which has now taken all the refuse away. 14,354. You have removed that evil by conducting the sewage direct into the river ?–Yes, it went into the river before, but in a circuitous and objectionable way. 14,355. I suppose floods do not affect you ?—Very little ; the recent flood affected the corn mill at the side and a cottage or two. 14,356. Have you observed the effect of the flood in the valley —Yes. 14,357. Was it very destructive?—In Bingley Vale there is not much damage done except in some places the river washed a little wider. 14,358. Have you paid any attention to the floods since you have resided here 2–Yes, within the last seven years, I have always lived here, and I know something of the floods. 14,359. Can you draw any comparison between the recent flood and other floods which you have seen 2–I should say that the last flood was the greatest ſever saw. When Mr. Brigg gave his evidence here he referred to a flood at Stockbridge 29 years ago. I remember very well the carriage of Mr. Hall, a solicitor in this part, who was going to be married, going through the water at Stockbridge. I do not think the water had ever crossed the road from that time until now. 14,360. Did it come across the road on the recent occasion P-Yes. - 14,361. Are you aware that a weir has been taken down there which has lowered the river four or five feet –Yes, and I should say that the flood would have been much deeper at the crossing of that road if the weir had not been taken down, and the bridge would have been in great danger. I was there a little after the bridge gave way. 14,362. Is the bed of the Aire filled up at all below Bingley –I should think that it is not much filled up. I think that any refuse that may be thrown into the river above Keighley would assist in filling up the river before it got to Keighley. We have a weir about a mile from Bingley called the Castlefield weir, and that weir I think would stop anything coming down. 14,363. (Mr. Harrison.) Between the river Worth and that weir is the bed of the river altered much – Yes, it is raised much at one point, I think it has risen a yard, but that is on account of the current, and of course the refuse must settle somewhere, it cannot go down below Bingley, 14,364. Has that rising of the bed of the river caused the flooding to be greater than it used to be?— Yes, and also the quick current has had that effect. The witness withdrew. The witness subsequently added to his evidence the following statement : As a proof that Bingley sewerage does not foul the river injuriously to health, within 300 yards of the centre of the town and the 14,365. (Chairman.) In what business are you engaged —I am a worsted spinner and manufacturer. 14,366. You represent the firm of Robert Clough and Company of Grove mill, near Keighley P-Yes. 14,367. Do you use steam or water power – Both. - - 14,368. To what extent do you employ water power —The extent is not ascertained, it is very irregular. 14,369. What quantity of coal do you burn in a week 7–On the average about 25 tons a week. 14,370. What do yon do with the ashes —Within the last three years we have used them in building operations. 14,371. Do you grind them with mortar 2–We use the largest for making roads, and the smaller for mix- ing with lime, only the remnant we put away into the Stream. 14,372. Do you put any into the stream now?— Very few. 14,373. But you do occasionally –We have put in very few during the last three years. 14,374. Do you use water in your manufactures?— Yes, for washing wool. - 14,375. To what extent f-I cannot tell that, but we have plenty of it. 14,376. Do you take it from the beck?–No, from Our OWI) reservol.I. 14,377. Of what area is that 2–Perhaps it has a surface of an acre and a half. 14,378. Of what depth —The average available depth is six feet. 14,379. Is it spring water —No, river water. 14,380. Do you catch it from the stream –It is taken at the dam stones. - outlet into the river Aire, there are a quantity of trout. KEIGHLEY. Mr. T. B. Laycock. 28 Nov. 1866. - I have asked two old fishers, and they tell me there never were more ; one man said there were thousands of trout, and the other said the water almost lifted with trout. It is preserved by Mr. Ferrand. Mr. JoHN CLough (Keighley) examined. 14,381. How often do you cleanse the reservoir out 2–Sometimes we do not do it for two years. 14,382. When it is done is the refuse flushed into the river ?–Yes. 14,383. Has any person below you ever complained of that 2–They have complained just at the time after we have been flushing, if they have been working, the refuse has got into their pump and stopped their machinery for a time. 14,384. How many hands do you employ —About 320. 14,385. Have you provided privies or waterclosets for their accommodation P-Privies. 14,386. What becomes of the refuse P-The privies are in rows on one side and the other, the sewage is taken down through an iron pipe into a waggon or box which is on wheels, and then it is carried away to the land and mixed with the soil. 14,387. Does any of that refuse go into the stream? —Not a drop of it that we know of, we use it on the land. 14,388. Has the bed of the stream been raised since you remember it —I consider that it is half a yard lower opposite to us than it used to be. 4,389. Is it lower before you have cleansed the reservoir out 2–Yes, by the natural washing of the - Stream. 14,390. Is that the case all through the town of Keighley —I cannot give any evidence about the town. 14,391. But it is lower opposite to your works?– Yes. 14,392. Have you suffered by the recent flood?— Yes, we have. 14,393. In what way —Our fires, or at least our Mr. J. Clough. 3 H 4 432- RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. KEIGHTEY. Mr. J. Clough. 28 Nov. 1866. flues, were filled up about 9 o'clock on Friday by that flood, I mean the flue under the boiler going to the chimney. 14,394. And the water stopped the machinery – Yes. 14,395. How long did you stand still in conse- quence 2–We stood still all that day, but in the afternoon the water ran over our dam bank, and through our boiler house ; but we attribute the first four hours of our standing still to the bridge that has been made by the Keighley and Worth Valley Rail- way Company—a timber bridge standing on piles driven into the mid stream with no allowance for the iles. p 14,396. You think that that bridge or viaduct backed the stream up, and caused you to be flooded? —Yes, from two to three feet, that was just the differ- ence it made in our case. - 14,397. Have you remonstrated with the company ? —Yes, we did at once. 14,398. What have they said —Nothing yet. 14,399. Have you any idea of making them pay for the damage they have caused ?–We have given them notice to that effect. 14,400. Did you notice what they were constructing when they were putting the bridge up 2–Yes, we re- monstrated with them at the time. 14,401. Did they not take any notice of that ?— The engineer in chief said that they would allow waterway for the piles, but they never did. 14,402. If you have been flooded in consequence this time, you will of course be liable to be flooded again —Yes, by a similar flood. 14,403. Was this a greater flood than you ever re- member before ?–Yes, I never recollect such a flood. 14,404. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you wash wool in the way that Mr. Townend mentioned 2–We use the same system partially, to the extent of half our operations; for the other we use soap, the ordinary marketable Soap. 14,405. What do you do with the soapsuds 2—At the present time we turn them into the stream, but we have built a new mill recently, and a building to ex- tract the suds on the same system as Messrs. Townend pursue. 14,406. Do you think you will carry it out as effec- tually, so as to send the water away from your pre- mises in a pure state 2–I have heard Mr. Townend's evidence, and I scarcely think that we have room for the sort of filter bed that he mentioned. I have not seen his filter beds, but I did see the soap beds. We have neither space nor fall for the filter beds. 14,407. (Chairman.) How many packs of soap do you use in the week –Five. - 14,408. (Mr. Harrison) In cleansing what weight of wool —Between 50 and 60 packs per week. 14,409. How much soap and oil do you use 2–We use five packs of soap, and we use in alkalies and oil equivalent to five packs of soap. 14,410. Do you dye as well ?–Not at all. 14,411. If it can be shown that a filtering arrange- ment similar to that which is carried out by Messrs. Townend could be used, occupying only a small space, would it be any hardship to you if you were compelled to filter all the water as he does, and pass it away pure ?–We should not consider it a hardship. I think it would make it necessary for us to pump the soap- suds up to a filter bed, but if everybody above us sent the water down pure, we should not make any objection. 14,412. Would not the advantage of getting clean water for cleansing be greater than the injury of being obliged to pump the soapsuds up 2–We have occa- sionally experienced a very disagreeable smell, which we have attributed to letting the liquid out of the sudº tanks above us, it was a peculiar smell, and it got into the mills occasionally ; but the volume of water is so great that comes down the stream, that we have not found the pollution to affect our wool-washing opera- tions, the smell is only disagreeable occasionally, and I have not noticed it lately, but the last summer has been wet. 14,413. (Chairman.) You might observe it more in a dry summer ?–Yes, if the soapsuds were turned into a very small stream. 14,414. (Professor Way.) I suppose you would say generally that purification of the streams is so much to be desired, that it would be worth while for each manufacturer to incur some expense to accomplish that object –I think it is very desirable, and we should not object to take our share in keeping the water pure, and keeping all solid materials out of the stream. 14,415. And as far as you could in preventing pollu- tion from wool washing 2–Yes, we are preparing to extract the bleach. 14,416. The proper plan I suppose would be for each manufacturer to refrain from polluting the stream —Yes, I think so. 14,417. Prevention being better than cure ?—Yes. It appears, as far as the worsted manufacture is con- cerned, that prevention is a means of profit, the ex- traction at least of the soap is a profit. 14,418. In making that profit, it would be fair nevertheless that you should be asked to discharge the liquid as pure as you could, even if it should diminish your profit?—Yes, if everybody above us did the same : I think we should derive a certain benefit from re- ceiving the water purer, although it seems pure enough. 14,419. You probably heard Mr. Townend say that without filtration the liquid, after it comes from the grease separating process, still comes in an objection- able condition, but filtration through a bed of ashes sends the water away in an unobjectionable condition ? —Yes. 14,420. That of course would be attended with a di- minution of profit, because filtration would cost money? —Yes. - 14,421. May it not nevertheless be said that a dimi- nution of profit would be quite a tolerable thing if you gain an advantage in the end ?–Our circumstances are different. Messrs. Townend’s premises are situated on a very small stream, while we are on a large stream, and the quantity of turbid water that is turned out from our works bears a very small proportion to the whole volume of the stream, whereas in Messrs. Townend's case, it bears a larger proportion. In my opinion the simplest course to pursue is to stop out all impurities. 14,422. And you would not object to a general law to effect that purpose 2–I do not think we should. (Mr. Townend.) I may remark that our stream is so small that in the summer time all the sewage lodges in the brook, and there is not a sufficient flow of water to take it away, there is scarcely a run at all from the cottages or the ditches, all refuse is taken away with the first flood that comes. 14,423. (Professor Hay to the witness.) Can you state what quantity of oil you use 2–I cannot state it off hand, 132 lbs. of oil represent a pack of ordinary soap, such as we use. 14,424. The compound is nearly half oil, is it not 2 —Yes. 14,425. Is it the oil that you expect to recover ?– I was wrong in the figures. I should have said 84 lbs. of oil are used in 256 lbs. of soap. 14,426. That would be about one-third 2–Yes, that is to say, we should use 84 lbs. of oil where we used a pack of soap under the old system. 14,427. Supposing you were paid as Mr. Townend was by a company for the right of extracting the soap, you would be paid I suppose for 84 lbs. 2–Yes, we should reckon on 84 lbs of oil. 14,428. Out of a pack of soap, or its equivalent 2– Yes. 14,429. Is that the only oil that you use 2–No, we use oil in combing the wool, oil is put on to the wool. 14,430. Are the goods washed afterwards?–Yes, but that is after they leave us. We wash some of our yarns, or scour them, and the warps, the double warps, WG SCOUll’. 14,431. (Chairman.) Do you use urine in any of your processes?—No. 2 14,432. Is it used in the Keighley trade?—Not that I know of. I have heard of its occasional use for very dirty warps, - RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 433 14,433. Is there anything of the kind used, such as pig dung, or refuse of that kind, in the woollen manu- factures?—They are not at all suitable for our trade. We do not use the short fibres that are produced in the combing operation, they have to be sold for another purpose. 14,434. Do you dye —Not at all. 14,435. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you use any foreign wool?–No, we use no foreign wool. 14,436. What loss do you sustain in cleansing the wool –In fine English wools we lose as much as 3 lbs. out of 16 lbs., the average loss is from 2 lbs. to 3 lbs. 14,437. Do you use Scotch wools?—Not at all. 14,438. (Chairman) What is the price of that class of wool at the present time —From 1s. 7d. to 2s. 2d. a pound. 14,439. What is the ordinary price?—I cannot say. 14,440. Has wool increased in value recently –It is very much higher than it was, but still it is lower than it has been. 14,441. Did the cotton famine cause the price of wool to rise ?—Yes, it sprung up to 2s. 10d. instead of 2s. 2d. 14,442. Lancashire suffered by losing its trade, but Yorkshire was benefited by having an inland trade 2– So it would appear. 14,443. As the supply of cotton got smaller the price of wool became higher –Yes; the greatest va- riation in price that I ever knew of was from 1s. 0}d. a pound for the same class of wool to 2s. 10d., and that was in Yorkshire hogs. rivº 14,444. At what period did that alteration take place 2–I think the price of 1s. 0%d. was just about the close of the Crimean war in 1854; we then had a severe depression in trade, and wool went down to that price. 14,445. At what time did it get up again?—It got up about two years ago. 14,446. In 1864 –Yes. 14,447. What would the price of the same wool be now 2–About 2s. per pound. 14,448. Is there anything further you wish to add —I forgot to mention that the piles of the railway bridge stopped five trees that were coming down; the bridge is on a curve, and the trees turned and drifted against the piles and stopped there. 14,449. Did that cause a flooding of your premises 2 —Yes, and in one room that we never anticipated. 14,450. Did that cause you much injury —It in- jured the material, but we got the most valuable por- tions of it out. - 14,451. To what extent do you consider you suffered in money value –We do not know ; we are drying the wool and repacking it to this day. 14,452. Will you apply to the railway company for compensation for the damage they have caused you ?— Yes, that is what we think of doing. 14,453. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you mean a railway bridge that is near to the station ?—No ; it is on the Worth Valley Line. 14,454. (Chairman.) What is the name of the rail- way ?—It is called the Keighley and Worth Valley Line; it belongs to an independent company. he witness withdrew. Mr. Edward MARRINER (Keighley) examined. 14,455. (Chairman.) You represent the firm of B. and W. Marriner, worsted spinners, at Keighley — Yes. 14,456. Where are your works situated —On the river Worth. 14,457. What number of hands do you employ — About 400. 14,458. What weight of coal do you burn in a year : —About 1,300 tons. 14,459. Do you use water power?—Yes. 14,460. What do you estimate the power to be 2– The nominal power is 40-horse. 14,461. Can you work at that rate 3–Not all the year round. 14,462. How long has the wheel been in use —A great number of years. 14,463. Is it as serviceable to you now as when it was first put up —No. 14,464. Has the tail-goit been choked up –No ; I think that less water comes down the river. 14,465. In consequence of the reservoirs that have been constructed –I do not know. 14,466. Were you at all affected by the late flood —Not very much ; we are rather away from the course of the river. 14,467. Do you use water in your manufacturing processes —Yes, for washing wool. 14,468. In the same way that the last witness stated he did? —Yes. 14,469. Do you dye at all —No. 14,470. Do you use soap and oil?—Yes. 14,471. What weight do you use per annum of soap * —Nine or ten packs a week. 14,472. What quantity of oil do you use 2–I do not know. 14,473. Do you recover waste refuse from the soap suds?—Yes. 14,474. Do you perform that operation yourselves 2 —No, we lease it to someone else. 14,475. Do they take the refuse away —Yes. 14,476. They do not treat it on your premises — No, they mix it up and take it away. 14,477. What do they pay you per annum for it 2– I cannot say, but it is so much per pack. 14,478. How much per pack do they give you?—I do not know, 3s. or 4s. 14,479. Have you provided privy accommodation for your hands?—Yes, 17159,-2, 14,480. What do you do with the refuse?—We use it for manure. 14,481. It does not go into the stream —Not at all. 14,482. Is the water that comes away very dirty?— No, I do not know that it is. 14,483. Are there manufactories situated below you? —Yes. 14,484. Have any complaints been made of your polluting the stream —No. 14,485. Have you complained of any persons above you for doing so –No. 14,486. What do you do with the ashes —They are carted away to repair the roads. 14,487. Do you ever put any of them into the stream 2–We have not done so for the last 10 years. 14,488. Do any persons above you put their ashes into the stream 2–1 suppose so, but I do not know. 14,489. Do you think that the bed of the stream has been raised opposite to your premises 2–1 do not think it has very much. 14,490. How long have you known this stream — Four or five years personally. 14,491. Do you remember a flood before the last flood?—No. 14,492. How long have you recovered the refuse from your soap and oil?—I should say six or seven years. I cannot state exactly. 14,493. What weight of wool do you treat at your premises?—About 80 packs per week. 14,494. Into what is it manufactured —Into yarn. 14,495. Where is it worked up In Bradford 2– We only spin, and it goes away to Bradford; it goes abroad from there. 14,496. What wool do you use —English and foreign. 14,497. Where does the foreign wool come from ? --From Port Philip and Van Diemen's Land. 14,498. Do you use more Australian than English wool?—We use more English. 14,499. Do you use them separately, or do you mix them —We use them separately. 14,500. (Professor Way.) Is the water which comes away from the grease process clean P-No. 14,501. Have you tried any method of making it clean –No. 14,502. Who are the people who treat your grease; is it Le Paige & Co. —The people in the town here take it, namely, Listers, 8 I KEIGHLEY. Mr. J. Clough. 28 Nov. 1866. Mr. E. Marriner. 434. RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. KEIGHILEY. Mr. E. Marriner. 28 Nov. 1866. ----- - Mr. R. .N. Sugden. 14,503. Do you supply steam for the tank —Yes, we pump. 14,504. Is the liquid treated f-No. 14,505. (Chairman.) In washing your wools have you much loss in weight —Yes. 14,506. About what proportion of loss have you in your English wools?—From 3 lbs. to 4 lbs. in 16 lbs. 14,507. And what in your Australian wools?— From 5 lbs. to 6 lbs. 14,508. Is the loss owing to the dirt which is washed out 2–Yes, and grease out of the wool. 14,509. Then the Australian wools come to you dirtier than the English wools?—Yes, they are more greasy, 14,510. And you lose more in weight 2–Yes. 14,511. Did you ever hear of the process by a French patent of getting carbonate of potash out of wools in the first washings —No. 14,512. What do you do with the water in which the wools are washed at first 2–It goes into the tank. 14,513. That is the water from which you extract the grease?—Yes, the whole of it goes in ; parties take it all, and the spare water goes into the beck or river. 14,514. If it could be shown to you that you could clarify that water to a certain extent by an ash filter, such as you have heard described by Mr. Townend, should you have any objection to try the process?–1 should think not ; it depends upon the cost. 14,515. (Professor Way.) You would object still less, if you could do it in less space than that which an ash filter takes up –Yes. - The witness withdrew. The witness subsequently informed the Commis- sion that, according to the opinion of the elder work- men, the bed of the river Worth had been raised at Mr. ROBERT NEWSHOLME 14,516. (Chairman.) You are a worsted spinner * —Yes. 14,517. Where are your works situate 2–About three miles from Keighley, up the Worth valley. 14,518. In the Bingley district?–In the parish of Bingley. 14,519. What number of hands do you employ — About 700. 14,520. What accommodation have you for your hands ; have you privies –Privies. 14,521. What becomes of the refuse –It goes into tanks underground, and is carted away on to the land. 14,522. Do you use the water of the stream upon which you are situated 2–Yes. 14,523. For washing 2–No. 14,524. What weight of wool do you use per week 2 —We use about 100 packs a week. 14,525. What weight of soap and oil do you use – We do not wash all the wool on the premises. We buy a good deal in the prepared state, tops. 14,526. Do you do any washing 2–Yes. 14,527. And you use soap and oil –Yes. 14,528. Do you treat the waste suds at all, so as to recover the material out of them —Yes, we let them off to S. & C. Lister; they have the management of them. 14,529. Do they pay you so much per pack of soap? —Yes. 14,530. How much P-3s. 14,531. Do you find tank room on your premises 2 —Yes. 14,532. Do you find any steam —No. 14,533. Is the grease extracted on your premises 2 —No. 14,534. Then the fluid refuse, whatever it may be, passes into the stream 2–Yes, and the solid is taken away. 14,535. Do Messrs. Lister take the solid, or do you take it —They take it. 14,536. And they do what they like with it 2–Yes. 14,537. Do you use English wool or a mixture ?— We use both English and foreign. 14,538. Do you use Australian wool? —We do not use very much Australian wool. Our principal weight is English wool. 14,539. Do you use any Scotch wool?–No. 14,540. About what is your loss in weight in washing English woolf-It will vary a little accord- ing to the cleanness of the wool. The loss is perhaps 2 lbs. or a little under 3 lbs. out of 16 lbs. 14,541. And what is the loss in washing foreign wool?—We do not wash foreign wool; it comes in a prepared state. 14,542. Where does it come from ?—It is Australian wool. 14,543. Do not you use any continental wool 2–A little. 14,544. In what state is the river now as compared with what it was when you first knew it?--I should think that it is somewhat similar, ---- --- least 12 inches in the last 10 years : the personal observation of the witness being as stated in answer 14,489. -- SUGDEN (Bingley) examined. 14,545. Is the water of the river polluted when it comes to you ?–More than it was formerly. 14,546. What mills or manufactories are there above you ?—I cannot exactly state the number, but a good many. - 14,547. You are on the Worth 2–Yes. 14,548. Is the Worth a tolerably large stream 2–It is a very good stream. 14,549. Did the flooding the other week injure you at all?—Not very much. 14,550. Was it as large a flood as you remember 2 –It was larger than I ever remember. 14,551. When we commenced our inquiry all our evidence went to this, that the floods were not so large as they had been formerly. I suppose you think that the late flood was otherwise?—The late flood was an extraordinary floºd. The floods perhaps have not generally been so large lately as they were formerly. We have been at those works 23 years, and we have never seen such a flood before as the recent one. 14,552. It was not only a large flood but it was the largest which you recollect 2–Yes. 14,553. Then any assertion that the floods are less than they were formerly is contradicted by this flood? —Yes. 14,554. Some people have thought that the land drainage has produced the floods?—This flood, I should think, was produced by the extraordinary fall of rain in a short time. 14,555. Do you know what height the water rose vertically opposite to you ?—I should think that it rose from the bottom of the stream seven or eight feet high. I should think that that would be from 18 inches to two feet higher than we ever saw it before. 14,556. What weight of coal do you use –That varies a great deal. 14,557. How much do you use per week upon the average —About 35 tons a week. 14,558. What do you do with your ashes?—We use them for different purposes; for grinding up with lime, and for roads. 14,559. Do any of them go into the beck 2–No. 14,560. Did you at any time put any of them into the beck?–Occasionally a few perhaps. 14,561. Do any of your neighbours above or below you put their ashes into the beck 2–That I cannot Say. 14,562. Have you a lodge for a reservoir attached to your works –Yes. 14,563. Does it accumulate much dirt 2—A little. We have a largish reservoir, and we have one goit which carries the stream which is parallel to the goit. 14,564. If you have any mud to get rid of it passes down —Yes. 14,565. Are there are fish in the Worth at that point –Yes. 14,566. Trout?–We frequently find trout in our I'eSei"WOII’. 14,567. They come from above 2–From above and below. - -- RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 435 14,568. (Professor Way.) Are you not rather on a high part of the Worth 2–Yes. 14,569. Therefore you are not liable to much pol- lution ?—A good deal of pollution comes down. Gas tar comes down. I should say that it is more polluted by gas tar than by anything else. 14,570. (Chairman.) Where does the gas tar come from ?—From the works above. 14,571. What works are they –There are Messrs. Morrall’s works, which are next to us upon our stream. Messrs. Hattersley's are upon the other stream. We are just at the junction of two streams. 14,572. And you occasionally get gas tar?—Yes. 14,573. Have you complained at all of that ?—I do not know that we have. 14,574. Has it injured your goods in any way?— No, we do not find any injury from it, because we have a separate supply of water for our scouring purposes. 14,575. Do you get it from springs?—Yes, we have a reservoir for it. 14,576. Are you aware that gas can be made with- out passing any refuse of any sort from the premises 2 —It has not been done in our part of the country. 14,577. Are you aware that it can be done –Yes, I have heard it stated. 14,578. That they can carry on the operation con- tinuously, and never pass anything in the shape of refuse into the stream –We do not pass gas tar into the stream. 14,579. Do you make gas yourselves 2–Yes. 14,580. And you do not pass any of that refuse into the stream 2–No. 14,581. Nor ammoniacal liquor 2–No. 14,582. Nor spent lime 2—No. 14,583. Do you think that it would be justifiable to prevent these people above you from putting in any gas tar or any refuse from gas works –It would certainly keep the water purer. 14,584. Did the floods do much damage about you ? —They did considerable damage above us at one place. I did not hear of anything but at that one place. 14,585. What is the name of that place –It is called Lumb-Foot. 14,586. What did the damage there consist of 2– A reservoir burst, I suppose, at the commencement; it blew out the shed side and ran through the shed. 14,587. That was a small reservoir belonging to private works – Yes. 14,588. Did it do the owners much damage?—I cannot state to what extent. They will find, I believe. that there was considerable damage, but I have not seen the place. 14,589. You have heard I daresay that a large amount of damage has been suffered in the valley of the Aire from top to bottom 2–Yes. 14,590. Do you think that it would be a benefit to you if you could get the water cleaner than it is at present, if any regulations could be carried out by which the water should be preserved?—We use the stream principally for power. 14,591. You are not dependent upon it 2–We are not dependent upon the pureness of it. 14,592. (Professor Way.) I suppose that you know as a fact that there are manufacturers who suffer very much from the want of pure water in the streams ?— I have heard it stated so. 14,593. Do you not believe that it is so —Of course I cannot speak to that: I only go by report. 14,594. (Chairman.) You are fortunately situated so that you do not suffer 2–We do not. 14,595. (Professor Way.) It is not everybody who is high up on a stream —Everybody is not so high up as we are. 14,596. (Chairman.) Nor has everybody the same advantages as to pure water?—No. The witness withdrew, Mr. JoBN DIxoN (Keighley) examined. 14,597. (Chairman.) How long have you been resident in Keighley –Ten years. 14,598. How long have you been the certifying surgeon under the Factories Act 2–Rather better than eight years. 14,599. Who is the inspector who takes this dis- trict 2—Mr. Alexander Redgrave is the inspector, the sub-inspector is Mr. Rickards of Leeds. 14,600. How many mills have you under your supervision?–Igenerally keep the account according to the number of sets of books that I have ; I certify in books. For instance, there is one mill in this town which has four firms in it; in my way of counting 1 call that four mills, and in that way I have about 35 or 36 sets of books, although there are not 35 or 36 mills in reality. - 14,601. (Mr. Harrison.) But you have that num- ber of parties with whom you have to deal –Yes, some parties may have two or three mills, but still they are distinct so far as my duties are concerned. 14,602. I suppose that your duties do not bring you into collision with manufacturers, as regards the quality of the water or its pollution, or anything of that kind P−Not at all. 14,603. Or any interference with the river ? at all. 14,604. You simply certify that certain regulations are complied with under the Factory Act 2–Just so. 14,605. What is the general health in this district —I am not at present in practice myself, I have been obliged to retire from general practice on account of ill health; but I believe that yesterday you examined Mr. Milligan, and he is the gentleman who is most likely to give you the fullest information on that point, because he has made it a study. But I should say, generally, that the health of this district at the present time is about the average. 14,606. (Professor Way.) Do you visit the mills Not at any regular intervals —Once a week, except three to which I go once a fortnight. 14,607. Is it your duty to do so *—It is my duty to do so. 14,608. Under the Act –Yes. 14,609. You have a right of course to go into those mills at any time —Exactly so. 14,610. Have you any other occupation?—Not at present. 14,611. If you were visiting those mills, would you have an opportunity of seeing whether any discharge of an objectionable kind was taking place from the facto- ries into the water 2–-In some instances I should. 14,612. (Chairman.) Is Mr. Redgrave resident in London —Yes. 14,613. At Brompton —I believe so. 14,614. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you find that the con- ditions of the Factory Act are generally well complied with in this neighbourhood –Yes, so far as my duties are concerned, in fact I believe that they are complied with generally, I believe that it is the desire of manufacturers in this district to comply with the Act so far as they can. 14,615. In the course of your inquiries have you to take a record of the number of hands, men, women, and children, employed in the different works –No, the sub-inspector generally does that. I simply certify that they are of a certain age, and of good health and strength, and so on. 14,616. Do you find that the health of the people who are employed in such manufactories is pretty good —Yes, generally speaking, I think that it is pretty good. 14,617. (Chairman.) Have you any further remarks to offer to the Commission ?—No, I do not know that I have, except that as a medical man I think that the carrying out of the Factory Act is beneficial in many KEIGHLEY. Mr. R. W. Sugden. 28 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. Dixon. 3 I 2 436 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. KEIGHLEY. - Mr. J. Diron. 28 Nov. 1866. SKIPTON. - C. Sidgwick, Esq. 29 Nov. 1866. respects, both to the physical and the moral condition of the people. You have less of deformity, and evils of that sort, than used to prevail at one time. I think that the Act has had a very excellent effect. 14,618. And it has not been ruinous to the manu- facturers themselves 3–I should say not, judging by their progress. 14,619. And you do not find any factious opposition on the part of any of them to your doing your duty 2– Not at all. 14,620. They are rather glad to see you than other- wise —I hope so. 14,621. At all events they do not make it appear that you are not welcome 2—No. - The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 11 o’clock, at Skipton. Skipton, Thursday, 29th November 1866. PRESENT : JOHN THORNHILL HARRISON, Esq., IN THE CHAIR. Professor John THOMAS WAY. CHRISTOPHER SIDG WICK, Esq. (Skipton), examined. 14,622. (Chairman.) You are chairman of the local board of Skipton 2–Yes, I am for this year. It is an annual election. 14,623. For how many years has there been a local board established at Skipton —For eight years, from June 1858. 14,624. Have you been frequently chairman of the board —I have been chairman for the last 5 years. 14,625. You are therefore thoroughly acquainted with everything coming within the jurisdiction of the board ”—Yes. 14,626. What is the extent of the district under the management of the local board —I cannot tell you the area of the district. 14,627. Does it include the town and part of the neighbourhood –It includes the town and land round about it for perhaps a mile and a half in diameter. 14,628. Can you state what the population is within the boundary of the district –About 5,000. It is rather less than it was. 14,629. Within what period has it diminished 2– Within two years, or since the effects of the American war were first felt. 14,630. How would you account for the diminu- tion ?–Business has become slack, and the poorer population have been seeking work at Bradford and other places. 14,631. What is the special business carried on in Skipton –Cotton manufacture chiefly. 14,632. As the cotton manufacture was injured by the American war the trade of Bradford and other places was improved, and your population was taken away, I suppose?—No doubt. Wages are higher at Bradford than at Skipton. 14,633. What works have you been carrying on in the town —We have sewered the whole town, and perhaps drained a third of it, but the house drains have not been connected with the sewers as quickly as they might have been. 14,634. Have you been introducing waterclosets generally into the houses —The board of health are divided in opinion upon that subject. Some of them would at once do away with cesspools and everything of that kind, while others look at the cost to the owners of the houses. The result is that the cesspools have sometimes been ordered to be cleared and not to be destroyed. 14,635. Has the board of health taken in hand the cleansing of the cesspools and ashpits in the town – No. The inspector of nuisances has power to cause any nuisance to be abated under the Act of Parlia- ment in 24 hours, and if it is not abated he reports to the board, and then the board, or some of them, would at once order the cesspool to be turned into a watercloset. The board, however, are inclined to be easy. It is only sometimes that they will make the order. They will do so if the majority present is in favour of waterclosets, but if the majority present of the board is in favour of letting things alone the cess- pool is ordered to be cleaned out by the inspector of nuisances at the cost of the parties. That is all that is done. 14,636. Has an improvement taken place in this respect since the board was established, and are nuisances removed from the town more effectually than they used to be –In perhaps 300 out of 1,100 houses there will be waterclosets and a proper water supply for the closets. Of the remaining houses some are better and some are not better, but the town is kept in a cleaner state than it used to be. At the same time it is nothing like what it ought to be. 14,637. Do you find that there is any improvement in the comfort and health of the inhabitants in consequence of the steps you have taken :-I have no means of ascertaining. No return is made for the town alone. 14,638. What is the district for which the registrar makes his return ?–Skipton Union I should think, but the registrar will be able to explain that. 14,639. Where is the sewage discharged ?–Below the town, just above the railway. The volume of sewage will be 100,000 gallons a day, and we mix that in the sewers with another 100,000 gallons of water, clean water, arising from springs, which are met with in the course of the works. 14,640. Has the board taken into consideration the propriety and utility of passing that sewage on to land 2–We have talked about it, and we have had a report made as to what can be done, but the cost of doing it stands in the way at present. 14,641. Is there any difficulty in obtaining land?— We do not know, but I think the difficulty will be in obtaining money. Of course we could obtain it, but then we should have to pay it back again by a rate, and as long as we cause no particular nuisance the board do not wish to incur the expense of doing anything with the sewage. 14,642. What is the rateable value of the property within your district –7,000l. and some hundreds upon houses : not quite 2,000l. upon land. 14,643. Do the houses include the mills?—Yes, and all property which under the Act of Palliament is called a house. 14,644. Are you aware that sewage of towns is applied now in many cases, and with advantage, to land *-I have seen an account of what has been done at Croydon and Rugby and other places, and the evidence that has been given in Parliament upon the London question, and other papers on the subject I have read carefully over. 14,645. What conclusion did you arrive at 2–1 do not think that there is any nuisance here yet, and for this reason ; 20 grains of organic matter and inorganic matter in suspension, and 20 grains of inorganic matter in solution, with 2 grains of organic matter in solution will be the state of our sewage. We turn that at once into 4 times the quantity of clean water, and the whole goes one mile with a fall perhaps of 14 inches in the mile. It then enters the river Aire, and goes 10 or 12 miles without a house near it, so that the organic matter must be oxidized and matter in suspension must be all deposited before it gets to the end of the 12 miles; therefore we do not put more than 4 grains of matter to a gallon into the RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 437 river at present. It will of course be a greater quan- tity when all the houses are connected with the sewers. 14,646. It is merely a question of degree. You are fortunately situated in having an abundance of water with which to dilute the sewage.—That is not all; we have also land on which we could put it, but the cost of the necessary works to get it there and preparing the land for it would be too great to incur while we are paying off the money borrowed to make the sewers. It would be too heavy a charge on the population, and therefore we think it better to avoid it as there is no nuisance to complain of yet. 14,647. Are you aware that some towns lower down are obliged to take their water from the river ?—I do not know that any but the town of Leeds has ever done so. Bradford is otherwise supplied. Below Skipton there is no town on the river until you get to Bingley, and there could not be on account of the floods to which the river is liable. 14,648. Still there is a large population as you go down the river, and of course if the sewage from all the towns and villages situated on the river proper and upon the becks is turned into the river, the river must be polluted very seriously.—I agree with that, and that the sewage ought to be kept out of the river, and that where it was possible, a town population ought to be obliged to bear the expense ; but I think that in a case like ours, time ought to be given, for it is a very serious expense to make sewers. Afterwards, when the money has been recovered, and the debt paid off, I think we might fairly be called upon to put the sewage on to the land, but even then all matters in solution in the water, which now contains 20 grains to the gallon, would still go into the river. 14,649. Not after the sewage was passed over the land 2–No. In the Croydon report it was stated that they could not, under any circumstances, when they had passed the sewage four times through the land in Croydon, effectually extract the matters in solution At Rugby this was the case to a still greater degree. 14,650. But sewage is changed in character by being passed over land; what was noxious becomes innocuous. -Phosphorus and some other salts are taken out; but here a large quantity of iron and lime would be thrown into the water from any land that we could pass our sewage through. 14,651. You say that it is necessary to make towns keep their sewage out of the rivers and becks. If so, you could not expect that Skipton could be made an exception to the general rule—Every private house in this neighbourhood sends filthy water into the first stream that is nearest to it. I suppose that the prac- tice is the same throughout the whole country, and that all the villages and towns do the same ; but a great deal of the matter is oxidized, so as not to be injurious by the time the liquid reaches the next dwelling-house. There are cases where single houses pollute the water for those next below them, and that ought not to be done no doubt. 14,652. Single houses must be treated in the same way as towns —Yes. There are members on our Board who would be glad, when they could raise the money, to do something for sewage irrigation. 14,653. What other kinds of pollution are sent into the beck —The nearest works to the mouth of the sewer are dyeworks. There are tan and lime works a little further on beyond the dyeworks, and then there are paper mills and slaughter houses, the refuse from which of course is collected into our sewers in a great measure before it is discharged at the mouth of the sewer. 14,654. Is not the blood from the slaughter-houses utilized 2–it is carried into the sewers at the present time. The refuse is carted away on to the land for manure, but the liquid matter is turned into the sewers. I do not attend except merely to the general business of the board. - 14,655. Is there any further information that you can give us?—With regard to the works carried out by the board of health, I know nothing more. There is land fit for sewage irrigation, but unfortunately it is has. the best meadow land, which we should have to take at a large price. We have no sand, but plenty of clay, and all the works would be expensive though we should not have to pump the sewage. 14,656. Could you put the sewage on to the meadow land without pumping —Yes; by carrying it in sewers, and providing proper means for taking out the heavy materials, and carrying it a distance of # of a mile. - 14,657. (Professor Way.) Are you aware, from your reading on these subjects, that the better the land, the greater will the increase of produce be from the appli- cation of sewage –Yes; but the less will be the profit. If you can get land at 57, an acre and let t at 20', an acre, good ; but if you have to take other and at 5!. an acre and let it at 20s, an acre, you have lost 4!. ; and here, if we take land at 4!. an acre and let it at 5/. an acre, we should not be better off than they are at Croydon. 14,658. Supposing the land produces crops equal in value to 30!, or 40l. per statute acre, under sewage, would the prime cost, whether it be 3/. or 5l. or 7 l. be a serious item in the whole return ?—I am no farmer, and have had no experience. I merely go by the report of the Croydon board. They said they paid 41. an acre for 300 acres of land and that they let it with the sewage to Mr. Marriage at 51, an acre. If they could get 20ſ. an acre they would do so. 14,659. Are you aware that the Croydon Local }}oard will decline in all probably to let that land again upon the same terms when the lease is ended ?– I do not know that ; I have not seen anything to that effect. The land at South Croydon is valuable land. It is tolerably stiff clay, which produces as good, if not better, crops than the land which Mr. Marriage Clay is the best purifier of sewage if you have plenty of land to lay it on. I consider that our sewage is not one-half the value of the Croydon sewage, that is to say, if the Croydon sewage is worth a halfpenny a ton, ours is not worth a farthing, on account of the larger quantity of water as compared with the quantity of sewage matter. - 14,660. But the proper way of estimating the value of sewage is by the number of the population, and not by the extent of the dilution it undergoes?—Yes. 14,661. Consequently, if there are 5,000 in a popu- lation, you know at once what the value of the sewage is, independently of its dilution, and if the sewage is not to be pumped, the gross amount of dilution is not an element in the question at all —The population of Croydon was reported in the account that I saw to be 15,000, and there was delivered 200,000 gallons of sewage per day. We turn into the brook on the dryest day 200,000 gallons, with a population of only 5,000, and if I were to say that our sewage was worth only one-third of the value of the Croydon sewage, I should not be, I think, under the mark. I take it that one-half of what is delivered from our sewers is water alone. 14,662. If you had not to pump it it would be quite easy to distribute it, and more easy to distribute a large quantity than a small quantity ?–Yes. Still you have to put it on to the land. Our rainfall is 34 or 36 inches in the year. Croydon has probably half of that, and therefore, if we have 3 feet of water on the land in the shape of rainfall, and we have 9 feet more to put on in the shape of sewage, that makes a depth of 12 feet for the total quantity of liquid that we should have to filter through the land, and that would be a serious nuisance in the winter time unless we took a large quantity of land for irrigation. 14,663. There may be a difficulty in the case, but it is clear that the difficulty might be overcome – Yes, at an expense. We do not dispute that it can be done by incurring expense. We have had plans pre- pared of the land, levels taken, works laid out, and an estimate formed, therefore I do not speak in the dark tipon the matter. Still it would be a serious expense to us. We should want a tenant capable of working the water meadows. 14,664. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you observed the SKIPTON. C. Sidgwick, Esq. 29 Nov. 1866. 3 I 3 4.38 EVIDENCE, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF' SKIPTON. C. Sidgwick, Esq. 29 Nov. 1866. Mr. E. H. Sidgwick. works which have been carried out in improving the river Aire between Skipton and Keighley –I have seen parts of them as I have gone down the valley, but I have not taken much notice of them, except those close to the town. 14,665. Have those had a beneficial effect 2–Yes, there is much less water now in the valley in a time of flood 2–Our brook which we call the Ellar brook, which comes through the town, used to discharge into the river Aire, three quarters of a mile higher up than it does now, and in that three-quarters of a mile there is a fall, perhaps of 10 or 12 feet. Now it is carried in a straight line lower down the river, and the fallis taken up by two weirs at once, so that the brook runs in a perfectly straight line at once into the river and in consequence our valley has much less water in it in a flood. 14,666. Has any improvement taken place in the health of the people consequent upon the diminution of the floods in this neighbourhood —I cannot say. The witness withdrew. Mr. 14,667. (Chairman.) Are you a resident here?— Yes. 14,668. Have you resided here for many years — All my life. 14,669. Are you engaged in manufactures? — I a.m. 14,670. In what part of the town –Close to the Leeds and Liverpool canal and near the railway. 14,671. What business do you carry on 2–Cotton spinning. 14,672. Was that business affected by the American war –It was ; seriously. 14,673. Has it revived since then 2–Yes; for periods, and then it has lapsed again; the markets have fluctuated. 14,674. Do you use water or steam power?–Steam power to the extent of 40 horse. 14,675. What price do you pay for coals at Skipton —The price of coals has been raised lately, what we term slack or small coal from Leeds, costs us about 7s. 9d. or 8s. per tor. the small coals from Leeds are about the same now, they were cheaper. The un- riddled coals cost from 10s. to 11s, a ton. 14,676. How many years has the railway been opened to Skipton 2–I think it was opened in 1847 or 1848. - 14,677. How long has the canal been opened ?– Since 1789 or 1790. 14,678. Did you derive any advantage from the formation of the railway in the price of coals 2–It is so long ago that I cannot speak to that ; I have no doubt that we did. 14,679. Did you employ steam power before the railway was made –Yes; our mills lie by the canal which still brings coal, we principally get coals by the canal. 14,680. What do you do with the ashes 2–Anyone who wants ashes for paving or for building purposes fetches them, the rest we send down the canal in a boat, and put them on the banks. 14,681. You do not turn any of the ashes into the beck 2–We have none near us. 14,682. Do you send any refuse from the manu- factory into the beck —No. 14,683. How do you manage with regard to privy accommodation for your hands 2—The refuse is all passed into a tank, and then it is carted away by people in the town, and taken on to land. 14,684. How many hands do you employ —From 280 to 300, 14,685. Did you hear the evidence given just now by your brother ?–Yes. 14,686. From your own knowledge can you say that he has described pretty nearly the existing state of things —He is better informed upon the matter than I am, and I think he is pretty correct. 14,687. Can you give any evidence with regard to the fouling of the stream here 2–No, 14,688. Are you at all affected by its being fouled by other persons —No, not at all, personally we do not pollute the stream. My brother mentioned correctly that there are certain persons who turn all their waste water into the beck. - 14,689. Where are the paper mills 2–They are higher up the same stream. 14,690. Above the town 2––Near the castle, that is, on a line with the castle. the rivers Aire and Calder —I think not. Robert Hodgson SIDG WICK (Skipton) examined. 14,691. Is there much pollution or objectionable matter sent from the paper mills into the river ?—I should say not. I never heard it mentioned as a nuisance. No doubt they do turn out their waste, but I never heard it complained of. 14,692. Are there any fish in the beck here 2–I am not prepared to say. 14,693. Are there fish in the Aire —Yes; very good trout, I believe. The Aire for some miles below the entrance of the Skipton bed has been pre- served for 20 years, and is, I believe, still preserved. 14,694. Do you agree with your brother that if any measure is passed calling upon the towns below to keep their sewage out of the rivers and becks Skipton should be obliged to follow the same law —I think it is evident that it would be for the benefit of the country at large to keep the streams quite pure, but I think other nuisances might arise from sewage irrigation. 14,695. Are there any pollutions in Skipton, such as cause an objectionable nuisance to the inhabitants? —I do not know of any. 14,696. No bad smells arising from them 2–In the summer time there are bad smells arising from the brook, but that is partly caused in this way. There are mills situated higher up the stream, and the small supply of water that comes down in the summer months is reserved in the dams above. There is a bad smell from the brook in a summer's evening. 14,697. From what mills is that refuse sent down 2 —I am speaking of the brook generally below the town. After you pass the railway the smell might be observed, but that is below the sewage outlets of the whole town. 14,698. (Professor Way.) The quantity of water flowing down the two becks below Skipton is very considerable 2–Yes, at times. 14,699. Your population is only 5,000 —About that. - 14,700. You have here a comparatively small amount of impurities in the river and a large quantity of water to dilute those impurities —I think so. 14,701. You are therefore very favourably situated 2 —Yes. 14,702. But you would admit that it would not be fair to take your case as an example of the state of things which exists throughout the whole course of As I was saying, when the water that comes down the stream in the summer months is reserved in the mill-dams the smell during the evening is bad, because there is a very small quantity of water to dilute the sewage and other impurities; otherwise there is no nuisance perceived at any time by the side of the brook. 14,703. You are aware that when that state of things is aggravated, I mean when the quantity of impurity is a larger proportion of the volume of water, a serious nuisance arises 2–Yes; for instance, the beck at Bradford or the river near Leeds. 14,704. It is a question of principle. If in one case it was said that a nuisance was so small that it might be allowed to pass unnoticed what law could you introduce to meet other more serious cases?—I think that one general principle ought to apply to all cases. 14,705. You think at the same time that all proper indulgence should be given to this as to other towns which have difficulties to surmount 2–Yes. RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 439 14,706. But the evil is an evil be it ever so small?— Yes, it is the commencement of an evil which will naturally grow worse. 14,707. It might be said that the evil is at the beginning of the streams that feed a river, and that the evil grows worse and worse the lower you come down 2–Yes. 14,708. Any reasonable measure, either for towns or manufactories, which should be devised you at Skipton would be just as ready and willing to comply with as other towns would be 2–Yes, I think so. 14,709. (Chairman.) How is the town supplied with water?—By waterwork; from a hill above the town. There are two reservoirs on that hill. 14,710. Do you manufacture only white calico P- Yes, except that we weave a little for Bradford occasionally. 14,711. You do not dye or print?—No. The witness withdrew. Mr. JoHN HEELIS (Skipton) examined. 14,712. (Chairman.) You are the son of the clerk to the board of health?—Yes. 14,713. Your father has been clerk I believe since the formation of the board 2–Yes. 14,714. Did you hear the evidence that was given by Mr. Sidgwick, senior 2–Yes; at least I heard the greatest portion of it. 14,715. He gave the population at 5,000, and the rateable value of the district as 7,000l. from houses and 3,000l. from land 2–Yes. 14,716. He also gave information as to carrying out certain works. Was all that correct —Yes, as far as I know it was perfectly correct. 14,717. Upon what other points besides those he touched upon can you give as any information ?—I do not think I can give you any other information, but I will hand in a copy of our byelaws (handing in the same). We are under the Local Government Act. 14,718. Are many new houses being built 2–There have been a good many new ones built, not large houses, but small houses for the manufacturing population. 14,719. What steps are taken by the board when new houses are being built —Before any new build- ings can be erected all plans are obliged to be sub- mitted to the board of health, and to be approved by the board beforehand. 14,720. What arrangement does the board require to be made as to privy accommodation or water- closets –They require waterclosets to be made to the new houses, but existing privies are not directed to be altered unless they become a nuisance. When they are found to be a nuisance an order is made that they shall be turned into waterclosets. 14,721. Has that been carried out to any consider- able extent 2–Yes. 14,722. (Professor Way.) Have you power to suppress nuisances caused in the streams ?–No. 14,723. Supposing that any factories were to be erected here which seriously affected the streams, should you have any power to prevent any nuisance that might be caused by them —No, except by pre- venting the erection of the buildings altogether. We have that power because no building can be erected unless the plans are submitted to the board and approved. If the drainage was likely to pollute any stream and cause ill-health then the building would not be approved. 14,724. You think that you would have power under the provisions of the Act to prevent any build- ing being erected that might cause a nuisance?—Yes. The witness withdrew. Mr. John Scott (Skipton) examined. 14,725. (Chairman.) Do you reside in Skipton – Yes. 14,726. How long have you resided here 2–22 ear’S. 14,727. Have you carried on business in Skipton P —Yes, I am a brewer. 14,728. Have you carried on that business during the whole period of your residence 2–Yes. 14,729. What water do you use for brewing 2– We have waterworks of our own for brewing pur- poses, and we use the canal water and the brook water for rinsing and such things. 14,730. Do you use steam power P-Yes. 14,731. To what extent?–10-horse. 14,732. What do you do with the ashes 2–We lead them away in all cases. 14,733. What volume of water do you use for brewing independently of cleansing and what you use for steam power —I cannot tell you the number of gallons, but I can tell you the quantity of malt that we brew. 14,734. In cleansing your casks and other vessels what becomes of the refuse –It is turned through our drains into the Ellar beck, which is a tributary to the river Aire at a distance, I think, of a mile or more from the river. - 14,735. Is that refuse of an objectionable character —No, I think not from the brewery. It is pretty sweet sort of stuff. I think there is no bad smell with it. 14,736. Do you send any spent materials from your brewery into the beck —None at all. We collect all the rinsings from the mash-tubs and spent hops for manure. We collect them in our middens. The grains of course go into the country for stock. 14,737. What is the name of the beck that passes through Skipton –It is called the Ellar beck. 14,738. And your works are situated upon it 2–Yes. 14,739. From what source do you obtain your water for brewing 2–We have a watercourse from a place called Skibeden Springs, and we collect the water into a tank that we have provided. 14,740. Is it soft water –No, hard water. 14,741. Are the springs in the limestone –Yes, and we collect two or three springs into one tank, and so bring the water down. 14,742. Is the water of the beck hard or soft — The Ellar beck water varies very much, but it is soft Water. - 14,743. What is the character of the water that is supplied to the town —I think it comes partly from limestone and partly from millstone grit. 14,744. How many hands do you employ?–11 or 12. 14,745. What do you do with their excrements – We have one privy for the men, and the refuse goes into the horse and pig midden, it does not go down the beck, it is taken on to the land along with the Imalnure. 14,746. The only pollution that you cause in the beck is from the washing out of the casks –Yes, that is all; we lead all the solid refuse away in every case, and always have done so. 14,747. Would there be any great objection to your taking even the other refuse away and putting it on the land, or passing it into a sewer, and so that it might be conveyed to the land with the sewage of the town 2–I think that the refuse from the brewery would not be worth anything as manure. We have a very large supply of water, and we use it all. 14,748. Is the water of the brook so polluted that you could not use it for brewing purposes?—No, it is clear water with us, or moderately so. 14,749. (Professor Way.) Is soft water suitable for brewing 2–No. 14,750. Does it make the beer too dark 2–No ; but it gets too much out of the malt, it gets thick. SKIPTON. Mr. R. H. Sidgwick. 29 Nov. 1866. - Mr. J. Heelis' - - Mr. J. Scott. 3 I 4 440 OF EVIDENCE. RIVERS COMMISSION : —MINUTES SKIPTON. Mr. J. Scott. 29 Nov. 1866. -- Mr. W. Graham. 14,751. I suppose you cannot brew pale ale with soft water 2–No, not to be very good. 14,752. Do you know how hard the water is that you use —I do not know that exactly, but we sent it up to Leeds to be analysed, and the report that we received was that it was very similar to the Burton Water. 14,753. (Chairman.) I believe you know something about the land below the town –I only farm a very small quantity of it. 14,754. To what extent do you farm –Only about 4 acres in the valley. 14,755. Do they lie on the border of the River Aire?—No, they are at a good distance from both the river and the beck. 14,756. Is that land subject to flooding 2—It is never flooded. 14,757. Have you observed, that land which was º subject to flooding is now not so much so – eS. 14,758. Has that exemption from flooding been beneficial 2–We consider so. 14,759. Has there been an improvement in the health of persons residing near to the land that was formerly more flooded ?–I do not know that. 14,760. Was there much fever among the people formerly who lived upon the low grounds 2—There is no population near the places which were flooded, no houses. 14,761. (Professor Way.) If the water does get to the land, I suppose you would endeavour to regulate it as to when it should come, and when not ?—Yes. 14,762. Are any arrangements made, any embank- ment constructed, or any improvement of the river below for the purpose of irrigating the land?—I do not know. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM GRAHAM (Keighley) examined. 14,763. (Chairman.) I believe you are a member of the local board of Keighley?—Yes. It was thought by our board that you had not received sufficient infor- mation as to the waterclosets at Keighley, and a deputation of gentlemen in the town called upon me, as I had been a member of the board, and expressed a wish that I should come to give you further infor- mation. I have now obtained that information, and with your permission I will give it. I may state that we have a strong impression that there is no use for waterclosets, that they are a great nuisance in every place, and very injurious to health. We think that they can be dispensed with altogether. I have brought with me a list of the persons who use waterclosets, and of those who do not. A great many of them use the sewage for the land and take it direct from the factories, they do not put it into the water at all, while others will do so, whether the board like it or not, we have endeavoured to stop them. We have never passed a plan, I believe, since the board com- menced its operations, with waterclosets in it, and there is a very strong feeling against their use on the part of the Board of Health. 14,764. Nevertheless are there not a number of mills at Keighley which have waterclosets attached to them 2–Yes, I believe there are some, but a num- ber of them have not any, there are only a few that have waterclosets. 14,765. Is not the refuse collected at a number of them, and sent out into the country to be applied to the land 2–Yes; they have tanks or barrels with wheels, and they wheel the refuse away, it is taken and laid up, and covered with soil, and then the com- pound is used direct for the land. I have a list here of the names of the persons by whom it is dealt with in both ways. 14,766. How many hands may those who use water- closets employ, and how many hands do those who carry away the refuse in any other manner employ — I cannot say exactly, but I believe there are as many who do not use waterclosets as do. 14,767. Do you think that the number of hands employed in each case is the same *—I think that those who do not use waterclosets probably employ the largest number of hands. 14,768. Your board seem to entertain the idea that the use of waterclosets is prejudicial to health —Yes. 14,769. In what way would it be prejudicial to the health of people who are employed at mills 2–In this way, the waterclosets are emptied into the beck, and there are dams down below, and those dams become stagnant for a time. Then there are waterwheels, and those waterwheels are constantly turning in this filth and dirt, only this last summer persons from some mills came to me, as being one of the Board of Health, and wished me to interfere to improve the condition of the water; and the overlooker said that the workmen in warm weather were going out of the mills sick, that filth would sometimes flow down so as to sicken any person. Again the sewage fills the lodges at the dams, and these sometimes are flushed out, perhaps once in a week, and then the stench is awful. We consider that this is a great cause of pollution. 14,770. Have you any evidence to prove that illness is caused by the sewage collected at these mills?— No. We have no evidence that I am aware of to show that there is any evil connected with the mills from collecting their own sewage in cases where it is taken away on to land. 14,771. I mean at those mills where the dams are : —I cannot speak upon that question, but people do complain very much of what I have described, and they consider it a source of discomfort. They say that sometimes they cannot stand it, and that they must leave the place altogether in the summer time. 14,772. That proves that it is necessary for your board to find some land to which to apply the sewage by irrigation ?—We think that this can be done : that everyone can find for himself people who will be ready enough to take this material, if they can get it without ashes. On the other hand, we cannot find land in the neighbourhood. No one will sell his land there. 14,773. Some evidence was given at Keighley as to the number of waterclosets in the town ; have you any further evidence to give —I believe that upon the south beck there are 41 waterclosets connected with mills and two belonging to cottages, making in all 43. Then on the north beck there are in mills 10, and in cottage houses there are six, all emptying into the beck. 14,774. What number is there altogether?—I think about 59. Then again in private houses we have 44, which empty direct into drains, and which are supplied from our waterworks. There are a good number of houses in the town independently of these where they use cesspits. They do not, I believe, use our water. 14,775. How are the cesspools cleansed ?– I do not know. 14,776. Is there any overflow from them into your sewers ?—No ; in that case there is not. We do not let the liquid come into the drains in that kind of way if we can help it. 14,777. Are ashpits numerous in Keighley 2–Yes, I should say there is a great number. 14,778. Has your board taken steps to prevent their becoming a nuisance to the persons living near them —Yes; we employ an inspector of nuisances, and when he sees anything of that kind, if the parties do not remove it, we cause it to be taken away, and charge the people with the cost. The inspector gives them notice that the nuisance is to be removed within 24 hours. 14,779. Have you found that the health of the in- habitants has been at all improved by doing this?—I do not know that we have ; public health varies very much, and I cannot speak exactly on that question. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 441 14,780. Within your knowledge have there been parts of the town where disease has been more prevalent than in other parts –Yes. 14,781. Where are those districts situated – Generally in the higher districts. 14,782. Is there any cause to which you can attribute that greater liability to sickness f—I have asked medical men often, and I never could ascertain what the reason was, there is generally most fever on the hills. 14,783. Are the sewers carried up to those high places —No. 14,784. Are they properly ventilated?—In many cases there is a current of water that runs through them. 14,785. But are means provided to enable the gases to pass away?—No. 14,786. Are you aware that if a system of sewerage is carried out without proper ventilation, you are very apt to remove the cause of fewer from the lower part of the town which was badly drained before, and where probably cesspools were numerous, to the upper parts of the town by the foul air rising up to them —Yes; but the places I have alluded to pass the sewage direct into the beck, and by very short drains, one of them is not more than 100 or 200 yards right down, and the incline is very great. In another case the drains are perhaps not more than 200 or 300 yards long. I should mention that in the neighbourhood for 5 or 6 miles round Keighley, there is more fever on the hills than in the valley. 14,787. Are the houses where fever prevails in- habited by persons in the better condition of life — We have had it both ways, we have had fever at different times in some of the very first-class houses in the neighbourhood, at the late Mr. Marriner's for instance. 14,788. In the cases that you have been acquainted with have you found cesspools in connection with waterclosets —They do not use cesspools that I am aware of, they let the sewage go into the beck, if they use waterclosets at all. 14,789. In the houses situated as you have stated on the side of a hill is it customary to have ashpits below the floors of the houses —I should say not, as a rule. 14,790. In passing last night from Keighley to Cullingworth we saw a number of ashpits placed under the sleeping rooms ?—I am not aware that that is so as a general rule in the country. 14,791. But is it not the fact that there are such places —Yes; there are such cases, but not many. 14,792. Do you not think that ashpits so situated below rooms in which people sleep are likely to give rise to fevers?—I cannot say; I cannot understand fevers in that part which you allude to, it is not sub- ject to fevers. In the opposite direction there is a space of about a mile square, it is on the south-side of the town, and the registrar has informed me that he has had more cases of fever there than in any other place in our district. I have the facts to which I have spoken here in these papers (handing in the same), but I cannot give you any reason. The lower part of the town below the railway when we had fever so bad is all well drained now, and in those localities we have less fever than in any other part of the town. 14,793. Are you aware that some cellar dwellings in Keighley were flooded the other day, and that the people were obliged to turn out 2–Yes. 14,794. And that the liquid which flowed into those cellars was very objectionable and smelt badly 2–. Yes. 14,795. I believe steps have been taken, by white- washing, in some degree to mitigate the evil?—Yes; but the parties are doing it themselves, we do not do it. 14,796. Do you think that dwellings liable to be flooded as these were with this objectionable matter, can be fit habitations for human beings —I mean to say that the people will take the best steps they can themselves to do what is necessary without any sani- tary body interfering with them, in many cases of this kind the people have friends in the town, and until they get their houses into a purified state they will not attempt to live in them, not the better class. 14,797. Have not some already returned to these cellar dwellings —I have not heard of that. 14,798. Do not you think that it is very likely fever will break out in consequence of these people return- ing to their cellar dwellings —I cannot say. 14,799. Would it not be a proper thing for the board to take cognizance of this state of things, and inquire of the medical officer how far it will be safe for these people to return to their dwellings until they are properly dried ?–There are not so many houses in this condition. The greatest amount of filth that we have is caused in this way, some manu- facturers and builders of cottage houses are narrowing the beck continually, and this raises the level of the water. I know of some houses which have been flooded just now to a serious extent, and the people have been obliged to go out altogether, they were 3 or 4 feet deep in water, formerly it was not so. The beck has risen several feet since I first knew it, perhaps 3 or 4 or 5 feet in places; where the beck has been so narrowed, the water rises higher than it did formerly, when it was not so liable to flood cellars, and other property in low situations. The witness withdrew. Mr. John B. DEwhurst (Skipton) examined. 14,800. (Chairman.) Are you resident in Skipton P —Yes. 14,801. Do you carry on any manufactures here 2– Yes; cotton spinning, and cotton and worsted manu- facturing. 14,802. Where is your manufactory situated ?– At the outskirts of the town, on the Ellar beck below the town. - 14,803. How many hands do you employ —About 640. 14,804. Is that as many as you have been in the habit of employing for years past 2–Yes. 14,805. How long have you carried on business here 2–For nearly 40 years. 14,806. You were affected, I suppose, like many other manufacturers by the war : — We did occa- sionally run short time. 14,807. Did you find that many of your work- people left you ?–No. 14,808. Do you carry on any dyeing 2–Yes; we dye our own warps, such as are required to be dyed. 14,809. What becomes of the refuse from your dye- works –The liquid refuse goes down the beck. 17159.-2, 14,810. What becomes of the solid refuse 2–The bulk of it is carted away with the ashes from the fires. 14,811. Do you chip your dyewoods 2—The log- wood is generally rasped, but I believe it is chipped In OW. 14,812. The waste chips you say you collect and send out into the country —Yes; at least it is thrown into a heap with the ashes. 14,813. Do you think you would find any difficulty in purifying the liquid before you send it into the beck —I think we should ; I do not see how it could be purified. If it is sent into a tank to deposit, it only deposits solid matter, so that what is injurious would go forward still. 14,814. Mr. Townend, who was examined at Keighley, stated that he passes all his dye water on to a heap of ashes from his mill, about 18 feet in depth ; that the dye water percolated through those ashes, and passed away pure ?—That I think we could easily do ; any means that can be adopted we should be glad to adopt; it is a plan that we have thought of trying. 3 K SKIPTON. Mr. W. Graham, 29 Now, 1866. --- Mr. J.B. Dewhurst. --- 442 RIVERS COMMISSION: –MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. SKIPTON. M. J. B. Dewhurst. 29 Nov. 1866. 14,815. If you found that such purification could be carried out without trouble or much expense, would you be willing to adopt it?—We should be willing to adopt any means. - 14,816. Is any other refuse sent from your works besides what you have mentioned?—From two-thirds to three-fourths of our premises is accommodated by waterclosets, which are connected with the beck. As to the other part we have a tank, and the night soil is carried to the land. 14,817. Would it be very burdensome to you if you were obliged to collect it all and send it into the country to be used on the land 2–It would be difficult to do so; but if we were obliged, we should of course do it. 14,818. How much coal do you use in a year 2– About 3,000 tons. - 14,819. What do you do with the ashes —They are carted away for various purposes; none are passed into the beck, nor have been for the last 12 months, and it is not our intention to let any more pass in. 14,820. What horse power do you employ — The nominal power is about 120 horse. 14,821. Do you use any water power —Not here. 14,822. For dyeing purposes where do you get water 2—From the beck. 14,823. Is it polluted before it comes to you ?–No: we have no fault to find with it. 14,824. After you pass your refuse into the beck from the dye works, would the water be fit for another manufacturer situated below you to use –Yes; because there is much more water in the beck than we require to use, even in the driest time. 14,825. Still the character of the refuse that you throw in is, as far as it goes, objectionable?—Yes; but it is so minute. I have just reckoned up the quantity of dye stuffs that we have used during the year, log- woods, and other dye woods, shumach, gambier, sul- phate of copper, and sulphate of iron, it amounts altogether to about 60 tons. 14,826. (Professor Way.) How many dye vats have you in the mill —They are all for dyeing warps; we have a set for dyeing black, and a set for dyeing colors. We do not employ more than about eight or nine men and lads in the business. 14,827. Then you do not discharge a very large quantity of spent dyewater into the beck 2–No ; the waste liquid from logwood is almost colourless when it leaves us. 14,828. And that is discharged into a large volume of liquid 2–Yes. 14,829. The quantity being small would be easily dealt with ?–Yes, all these things are diluted with Water. 14,830. Do you dilute when you are running off the logwood vats —Yes, the liquid runs through two or three logwood vats, becoming weaker and weaker, and it runs away from the last vat of a very different colour from that in the earlier vats. 14,831. Still the liquid is used over and over again in different vats, and then it is ultimately discharged 2 —Yes, it is discharged when it is so weak that we cannot use it any further. 14,832. Is not that liquid dark —Yes; but you may say that in each vat it gets lighter ; it is not darker than dark vinegar as it comes out of the last vat. 14,833. Is there not some solid deposit in it?—No, the chips have all come out in the preparing and boiling process. 14,834. You are speaking of the dye vats?–No: the preparing and boiling to extract the colour are done in a separate vessel where the solid matters are deposited. 14,835. Does not a mixture of sulphate of iron and bi-chromate of potash produce the colour?—Sulphate of iron and logwood are used in different compart- ments of the same machine or dye vat. 14,836. Is not the mixture of the two the cause of the black colour —The liquid is black before the log- wood is applied to it. 14,837. Is any of that black colour produced out- side as well as inside the warps ?–In the fibre. 14,838. It is all equally coloured through the warp 2 —Yes. - 14,839. (Chairman.) In dyeing a certain quantity of dye is fixed in the warp, is there any dye upon the exterior surface of the warp that is liable to be washed away afterwards 2—Yes, there is always a little. - - 14,840. (Professor Way.) That is the dark matter which causes the dark colour of the water of the Aire and Calder lower down 2–Yes. 14,841. Apart from the question of purity, the colour of the water in the river undoubtedly is derived very largely from dye refuse, is it not ?–Yes. 14,842. The question is whether that dye refuse is in solution or suspension ?—I should have thought that it was in solution, subject to your correction. 14,843. If it could be kept out of the streams, I suppose the appearance of the streams in point of colour would be considerably improved?—Yes. 14,844. (Chairman.) What weight of cotton do you manufacture in the course of a week —From about 8,000 lbs. to 9,000 lbs. weight of cotton at this mill. 14,845. (Professor Way.) Is that dyed with mor- dant —Yes; shumach is, I presume, the mordant. 14,846. Do you use lime at all 2–Yes. 14,847. Can you state the quantities that you use? —Yes; I have an account here (handing in the same). In the items of lime and chloride of lime, the larger item is lime, unslacked lime, the smaller quantity is chloride of lime, 14,848. For what purpose do you use lime 2–It is used in the dyeing of black. I do not know what it does. 14,849. At what stage of black dyeing is lime put in 2–It comes in after it has gone through the shu- mach. So far as the lime is concerned, the solid mat- ter is put into cisterns and goes on to the land; only a portion of the lime water will go down the stream, and that is very fully exhausted; lime fixes the colours. 14,850. (Chairman.) Is your yarn sent chiefly into the worsted districts —Yes, to Bradford, and it is exported for the same purposes. - 14,851. Do you print at all?—No. 14,852. Do you produce any of the brighter colours, any of the aniline dyes –Yes, but only a very small quantity; whatever dyes are required of us we pro- duce. 14,853. Is the water you use suitable for aniline dyes?—Yes. 14,854. I suppose you can produce a better scarlet than they can at Leeds —Yes; I should say so. 14,855. By using the water of the Aire 2–Yes. 14,856. It is an advantage, is it not, for bright colours to have a fine soft water 2–Yes. 14,857. But the colour is of greater importance than the hardness of the water —Yes, I should say so, in delicate light colours. 14,858. Supposing you had to produce a scarlet, or mauve, or violet, with a water in which there were black particles suspended, could you do it?—I should think it would be impossible to produce passable colours. 14,859. How long have aniline dyes been employed here 2–We have only dyed here in the last two or three years, and we have not used the aniline dyes for perhaps more than 12 months. 14,860. Do you use any cochineal?—I believe not any. 14,861. I suppose you would not be surprised to hear that for the brighter colours the trade has been removed towards the sources of the streams in order that dyers might get purer water?—No. - 14,862. Nor that in Leeds, unless by using the water brought in by the companies, they can hardly produce the best colours ?–No ; I think it is very likely to be so. 14,863. Pure water is not so important in the case of blacks and blues —No, nor in dark browns, The witness withdrew. RIVERS COMMISSION 2----MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 443– Mr. WILLIAM BRADLEY (Skipton) examined. 14,864. (Chairman.) I believe you are a surveyor to the local board of health here 2–Yes. 14,865. How long have you held that appointment? —Since November 1858. 14,866. Has a system of sewerage been carried out whilst you have been surveyor 2–Yes. 14,867. Who reported upon it?—Mr. Curlew. 14,868. Has it been carried out in accordance with that report 2–Yes. 14,869. When was it completed 2–I believe in 1860. 14,870. Are the houses in Skipton connected with the sewers ?–Yes; a great part of them, I may say nearly the whole, are connected ; but the drains are not all laid down. The stone drains are connected in many places with the main sewers. 14,871. Do you mean that there is not a direct con- nexion between the houses and the new sewers ?— There is in the case about 100 houses. 14,872. In other cases are the old drains connected with the sewers ?—Yes. 14,873. What number of waterclosets are there in Skipton —About 100. 14,874. How many ashpits and privies are there?— I should say about 200. 14,875. Does your board encourage the conversion of privies into waterclosets?—They have done so. 14,876. Where privies have been so converted, has there been any improvement in the health of the people —There has. 14,877. What direct information can you give us upon that point —I have had it from the parties them- selves who use waterclosets, that they have been a great benefit to them; the benefit has been evident, we have had many privies turned into waterclosets, and by doing away with the nuisance, health and comfort have been improved. 14,878. You believe that the general health of the people residing in these houses has been improved 2– I do not say anything about health, but comfort. 14,879. In these cases were the ashpits and privies immediately adjoining the house –Yes, in many cases they were reported to the board as a nuisance by the inspector. 14,880. Were they sometimes within the house itself?—No, I do not recollect any one being in the house. 14,881. When new buildings are erected, do you take steps to have privies or waterclosets built accord- ing to some rule 2–We require waterclosets to be built except in cases where there has been no main sewer, and then we have been obliged to allow privies to be made. 14,882. Can you state what the death rate in the parish of Skipton is?—No ; Mr. Bailey will give that evidence. 14,883. What are your general duties as surveyor to the local board of health –I have the manage- ment of the highways, and I am collector of the rates. I have also to look after all buildings; the plans come to me and I keep them, and see that they are carried out. I have the management of all the sewers ; and the main sewers are flushed out once in every week; we have flushing wells at the heads. We get the water for flushing some of the sewers from the water company, and for flushing other sewers from the mill- dams ; it is turned into the sewers from a well which holds 600 gallons, and we send it all down at once. 14,884. Is there much foul gas in the sewer?— There was foul gas at the two ends of the sewer, and I hung a door with hinges which could be raised up and down by the water, for the wind, when it was in the west, blew up the sewer, and the air of the sewer smelt very badly at other times. The engineer had left all the gullyholes trapped, and when the sediment was taken out, the water necessarily was lowered in the gully, and then came up the foul air. I have taken many of those out, and caused a direct commu- nication from the gully into the sewer. 14,885. Have you found a decided benefit from opening the ends?–Yes. 14,886. Are the sewers ventilated 2–There is no other ventilation except by spouts that go up the houses, and wherever there is a drain near to a fall pipe we ventilate the sewer into that. 14,887. How do the sewers work when there is a heavy fall of rain, do they work properly 2–Yes, they do. 14,888. No foul smells are driven up into the houses 2–No ; we have very few complaints about foul smells. 14,889. I take it that your thorough system of flushing tends to prevent any sediment, and diminishes the accumulation of foul air considerably –Yes, it does. 14,890. Where is the sewage outlet 2—Just below the town, at the junction with the Ellar beck and the other beck. 14,891. Have you considered the question as to the suitability of the land adjoining the outlet for irriga- tion purposes 2–Yes, I have looked at it. 14,892. Have you taken any levels —No ; but they have been taken. 14,893. Was it found that the sewage could be applied to the land by gravitation ?—Yes. 14,894. Do you find much sediment in any part of the river below the outlet of the sewer 2–No ; I have not seen much ; what there was was all flushed away by the great flood. - 14,895. If it was washed away by the recent flood it may be presumed to have been there before the flood came 2—Yes, but I did not see it. 14,896. Have no complaints been made of its accu- mulating on the banks of the beck so as to become a nuisance 2–No, not in our district. 14,897. Has your attention been called to the flood- ing of lands adjoining this beck and on the river Aire 2–Yes. - 14,898. Have you watched the improvements that have been made by the Airedale Improvement Com- pany 2–Yes, I have, lower down the river. 14,899. Do you find that, with the same fall of rain in the neighbourhood, the land is more or less flooded than it used to be?—I do not think that it is more flooded ; I think that the water gets off more quickly. 14,900, Has that been an improvement to the ad- joining land?—Yes, a great improvement. 14,901. How many years is it since these works were carried out here 2–About two years ago. 14,902. You would hardly yet have seen much benefit from them 2–There has been very great bene- fit up to the present time. 14,903. Would the lands have suffered much more by the late flood, if those works had not been carried out 2–I have no doubt that they would. 14,904. Have you seen any of the means that have been resorted to for dealing with the debris that comes down the different becks 2–No. 14,905. Have artificial banks been very generally raised down the valley between this town and Keighley, or are they of recent construction —No, they are old embankments. 14,906. Can you say whether, within your recollec- tion, the bed of the Aire has risen within those embankments 2–No, I cannot speak to that. 14,907. How are the ashes and the contents of privies taken away from the town of Skipton –They are taken away by a scavenger appointed by the board to the north and south of the town to places taken for the deposit of this refuse. 14,908. Is that carried out as a system throughout the town 2–Yes. 14,909. At whose expense is it carried out 2–At the expense of the parties. 14,910. Do you find that they are willing to bear that expense –They are not very willing, the parties would rather take it away in the daytime, but the board will not allow that to be done. 14,911. Do you take precautions to disinfect these places after the scavenging has been done?—No. SKIPTON. Mr. W. Bradley, 29 Nov. 1866. 3 K 2 444 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. SKIPTON. Mr. W. Bradley. 29 Nov. 1866. - Mr. J. Calvert. 14,912. Do you use no chloride of lime?—Not that I know of. - - 14,913. What is the cost of conveying this refuse from Skipton in the course of a year?—I should say that if it was contracted for it would cost more than 150l. a year. 14,914. Does it cost more than that now 2–The board pays for all the road scrapings and the leading away of the sewage and the cleaning out. The occupiers pay for cleaning out the ashpits them- selves. 14,915. Do you take all the refuse from the roads into the country?—Yes, and put it on to the land, all of it. 14,916. (Professor Way.) In laying out your drainage system you must have known, I suppose, what quantity of water was likely to come through the sewers?—Yes. 14,917. Do you know any reason why the quantity of water should be so large as it has been described to us to be :-No. 14,918. Do you know the nature of the land below Skipton –Part is clay land and part gravel. 14,919. There is a large extent of tolerably flat surface, is there not *—Yes. 14,920. Is there any large quantity of land in the hands of one landower —Yes, there is in the hands of Sir Richard Tufton. 14,921. The estates below Skipton are largely possessed by him —Yes. 14,922. Is he resident here?—No, but he has an agent here. The witness withdrew. Mr. John CALVERT (Skipton) examined. 14,923. (Chairman.) I believe you are manager of the Skipton waterworks –Yes. 14,924. In what year were they constructed 3–In the year 1823. 14,925. Were you connected with their construction at all 2–No, I was not. 14,926. By whom were they constructed 2–By a private company. 14,927. Where are the waterworks situated 2–In the valley below Rumble's Moor. 14,928. What distance are they from the town of Skipton —About half a mile. 14,929. What is the extent of the gathering ground from which you draw your supply of water —From 1,000 to 1,200 acres. 14,930. What is the area of your reservoir, or have you more than one?—We have three reservoirs. 14,931. What are their areas?—The three would hold about 7,000,000 gallons of water. 14,932. Of what height are the embankments — Of one 9 feet, of another 17 feet, and of the third about 11 or 12 feet. 14,933. Have you provided means for passing off flood water at the side of those reservoirs?—Yes. 14,934. Had you any difficulty the other day during the heavy rains in passing off the overflow –We had a little difficulty. 14,935. What steps were you then obliged to take * —The water came out on to the embankment and we planked it across and threw it down the bywash and it had a more rapid fall. 14,936. You put the planks on the top of the em- bankment —Yes. - 14,937. What is the level of the bywash 2–The bottom of the bywash would be about four feet below the surface of the reservoirs. 14,938. What depth of water was then passing over the bywash –It was full. 14,939. To which of the reservoirs do you now refer 2–I should explain that one bywash answers for the whole of them, they are in a series on the same Strealm. 14,940. What is the length of your bywash – About 250 yards. 14,941. What is the width of it?—About 4 feet 6 inches. 14,942. During the late heavy rain the water was passing over a width of 4 feet 6, and a depth of 4 feet 2—Yes. - 14,943. And the reservoir was level with the top of your embankment —The reservoir overflowed the embankment. 14,944. Is it your intention to let the reservoirs remain as they are –This was the first and only time that we have ever seen them overflow the embank- ment. 14,945. Shall you recommend steps to be taken to extend that bywash so as to prevent a repetition of that which might have been the cause of considerable mischief ?—I have no doubt that the waterworks company would take some steps if they could see a necessity for it ; they never object to do anything of that kind. 14,946. Do not you see a necessity for it?—Yes, I do, and I shall bring the matter before them when they are called together. 14,947. And urge it rather strongly, as you think it ought to be done?—Yes, it is very necessary. 14,948. (Professor Way.) Were you in any fear of the embankment at the time 2—Not at all. 14,949. Does the washing of the water over the em- bankment tend to interfere with it 2–The manner in which we succeeded in getting quit of the water entirely removed any apprehension. We got some planks and laid them on edge the length of the embank- ment, and that threw the water down into the channel of the bywash which was at a considerably lower incline than the part level with the reservoir; we did not feel disposed to cut the embankment. 14,950. Did you pass any water through the pipes from your reservoir 2–I opened all the sluices and all the pipes that I could during the time when the water was so excessively violent. 14,951. In consequence of that there would have been flowing down the beck below, not only the flood water, but as much as you could pass out of your reservoirs?—Certainly. 14,952. There would have been more passing down the beck than would have been consequent upon that heavy fall of rain —There would have been the quantity conveyed through a 6-inch pipe in addition to the overflow of water from the flood. - 14,953. If the flood itself would have done damage, you by the necessity you were put to of opening the sluices, increased the volume and might so far have increased the damage done to property below the reservoir –The quantity contained in the 6-inch pipe (which is the main pipe which supplies the town) would certainly have enlarged the flood, but not much. I thought it desirable to take all the means we possibly could to ease off the water from the reservoir. 14,954. You tried to lower the level of your reser- voirs by opening all your sluices and letting the water run off, thereby adding to the volume which came down the beck 2–Yes. 14,955. The water that you did let down so long as the reservoir was full would have come over the banks —Yes. 14,956. So long as you did not lower the head you did not increase the quantity ?–No. 14,957. (Chairman.) Was the result of this opera- tion actually to lower the water in your reservoir – I should state that the filter bed is below the reservoir, and I found that the water was accumulating so as to RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 445 be likely to pass over into the filter bed. Then I came to the town and opened the sluices, because from the filter bed the town is supplied, and whilst I was doing that I had a few men employed in putting planks across the embankment of the reservoir to throw the water down the by-wash. 14,958. What was the cost of your works?–About 7,000l. 14,959. What volume of water do you daily supply to the town 2–About 100,000 gallons a day. 14,960. That is about 20 gallons per head of the population?—About that. i4,961. Is much of that 100,000 gallons used for manufacturing purposes —None that I know of. 14,962. Is there a constant supply to the town – Yes, except in very droughty times. 14,963. Do you find that with a constant supply the quantity consumed is about 20 gallons per head —Yes, as near as may be. 14,964. Is yours a constant system –Yes. 14,965. From what stratification do you obtain the water 2–We get a portion of it from the Skibeden Valley, and the other we collect from Rumble’s Moor Hills. The water comes down in a small stream from the mountains direct to the reservoirs. 14,966. Does the water come from millstone grit or Himestone 2–From millstone grit. 14,967. What is the quality of that water –I cannot say, but it has been analysed. 14,968. Is it very soft water?—It is not excessively soft. 14,969. How many houses do you supply with water – About 1,000. 14,970. How many houses are there in the town which are not supplied from your works?—I think there are not many. 14,971. 100,000 gallons distributed amongst 1,000 houses at the rate of 20 gallons per head would imply five persons to each house?–Yes. 14,972. At what rate do you supply the water — It varies according to the rental of the houses from 5l. to 5s. a year. 14,973. Can you give in a list of the rates which you charge for the water —No, I cannot at this moment. 14,974. You have no pumping –No. 14,975. The water comes down by gravitation ?– Yes, all by gravitation. 14,976. Then you pass it into each house?–Not into all. Some of them are supplied by stand-pipes, each of which supplies a certain number of houses. 14,977. Where are the stand-pipes, placed, in the streets –In the different localities, in courts and convenient places. 14,978. Do you supply water for cleaning the sewers ?—Yes, we do. 14,979. Do you charge the board of health for that supply –Yes. 14,980. At so much per annum ?–Yes, at so much per annum for flushing each well. 14,981. Do you supply the railway company with water —No. 14,982. What do you charge for each well to the board?—We charge 6s. 8d. for each well per half year. 14,983. What do you charge for supplying water- closets with water –The waterclosets vary. A cottage at a 5l. rental is charged 5s. a year for water rate, and if there is a closet attached to it we charge 2s. 4d. more, making together 7s. 4d. If we supply water to a 9/. or 10l. house the charge is about 8s. or 9s., as the case may be, but it varies. Sometimes it is 1s. 6d. per quarter, this 6s. a year with a watercloset added. 14,984. For a 15!. House how much do you charge —About 15s. a year for the water, and for the water: closet about 7s.6d. a year. In a 201. house we should charge 10s. a year for the closet and 11. a year for the water for domestic purposes, 14,985. Above that rental what charge do you make —We have not many houses above that rental. 14,986. Have you water rates for baths?—Yes, we charge 5s. a year for each bath. 14,987. Are there any public baths —No. 14,988. Do the improvement commissioners take water from you for watering the streets —No. 14,989. (Professor Way.) You say that you supply 100,000 gallons per day ?—Yes. 14,990. That is for domestic use, and you supply a further quantity for flushing the sewers ?—Yes. 14,991. Can you give us any notion how much that is ?—No, I could not at the moment. 14,992. Do you think it is 20,000 gallons a year 2– I should think it would not be far off that volume. 14,993. It would not double the quantity of water that you supply for other purposes —No. 14,994. Do you think it is 50,000 gallons —No. 14,995. You probably heard Mr. Sidgwick speak of the difficulty there would be in applying the sewage on account of the large bulk of water with which it was diluted 2–I did not hear his evidence. 14,996. Do you know what the general supply to other towns is, or is it usual to supply 20 gallons of water per head —I have heard of some towns being supplied with less and some with more. Some towns, I presume, are supplied with as much as 30 gallons per head. - 14,997. Have you heard what quantity of water is supplied to Croydon –Yes. 14,998. Do you know that Croydon is supplied with 1,000,000 gallons for a population something above 30,000, which would be over 30 gallons per head?—I daresay it is so. 14,999. I suppose that in very n any districts where there is a porous soil the quantity of water which gets into the sewers from rain and from the surface is very much greater than the water supplied ? —I daresay it is. 15,000. Would you be surprised to hear that at Croy- don the quantity of water which actually passes out of the main sewer is from two and a half to three times as much as the water which is supplied to the town 2–No. 15,001. If the whole of that could be applied to the land with benefit, do you see any reason why you should not apply the whole of your 20 or 25 gallons per head —Certainly not. 15,002. The volume with which you would have to deal is not after all an excessive quantity ?—No, it is not, but we could not exactly maintain that quantity in a very droughty summer, such as we have had the two last summers. 15,003. I suppose you would have plenty of water to dilute the sewage with if you wanted to do so at any time —No. 15,004. When your watercloset system is fully carried out I suppose you could do with the same quantity of water as other people do under like cir- cumstances, that is to say, for the supply of 5,000 people, you must make 20 gallons per head suffice?— Yes, if that would be sufficient. My opinion is that if the watercloset system was carried out the amount of water that could be collected from the sources that we have, if properly stored, would give more than 30 gallons per head. 15,005. You might get more if you wanted it, but you are not obliged to pass through your sewers more than is necessary, and you are not likely, I suppose, to be obliged to do so?—No. 15,006. Have you paid attention to the question of applying sewage to the land 2–No, I have not, except that I have read a little about it. 15,007. (Chairman.) Are there any mills situated on the beck below your reservoirs?—None. 15,008. You have no compensation to give P-No. The witness withdrew. SKIPTON. Mr. J. Calvert. 29 Nov. 1866. -- 3 K 3 446t. RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, Mr. WILLIAM MARSDEN (Skipton) examined, 15,009. (Chairman.) I believe you are a surgeon in this district 2—I am. 15,010. And a member of the College of Surgeons 2 —Yes. 15,011. Have you practised for many years in the neighbourhood of Skipton – About 48 years. 15,012. Then you are well acquainted with the state of health of the people in the neighbourhood — I am. 15,013. Has it improved since you first knew the neighbourhood of Skipton 2–Very much. 15,014. Has the population of Skipton itself increased within your recollection to any great extent? —It has. 15,015. What was it when you first knew it 2–I cannot tell exactly. 15,016. Do you suppose that it has doubled within the 48 years 2–No, I should think that it is about one-third more. 15,017. To what do you attribute the improvement in the health of the people of Skipton and the neigh- bourhood 2–To the general cleanliness which has been maintained, not only by the medical men, but by the town itself; the town is very much cleaner than it used to be. 15,018. From what period has that improvement been marked 2–I should say that it has been observe able in the last 24 or 25 years. It has arisen from the establishment of the gas company, and also from paving and keeping the streets cleaner than they used to be. 15,019. Then the improvement was in operation before the formation of the local board of health P- Yes, the local board of health is quite young. 15,920. Who were the movers in the improvement previous to the formation of the local board, that is to say, the improvement in the condition of the town which led to the improvement in the health of the people 2–I should say the inhabitants generally. There was a general stir not only by the medical men but by the officers of the town. 15,021. What is the character of the diseases which you find to be less frequent now than they were 35 years ago?–Fever in general; common fever, typhus fever. 15,022. Has the improvement been more marked since the local board have taken steps to improve the condition of the cottages 2–That is only of very recent date, it has only just come into force. 15,023. Can you feel it 2–I am sure that there has been less disease in the town of late years; less fever disease. 15,024. As well as fewer deaths –I know that the deaths have increased on account of the number of inhabitants. 15,025. But I mean fewer deaths in proportion ?– About 25 years ago there was a season when double the number of interments took place in one year than had ever been known before. 15,026. But there is a marked improvement in the general health of the people?–Yes. 15,027. And that is a very important element 2– Yes; the cause is that we have had a more plentiful and better supply of water, and the streets have been kept cleaner, and the roads have been kept cleaner and in better condition. 15,028. And the people are more comfortable –I should say so. 15,029. In your experience have you found that this improved condition of the people has led to the diminution of drunkenness among the people 2–1 cannot say that. Skipton is not to be called a drunken town, but we have about 35 or 36 inns in the town, and they must be made use of by some people. 15,030. Is that supply consequent upon the demand within the town 2–No, it is on account of the fairs in the locality. 15,031. Are there many fairs held in the town of Skipton?–Yes, when cattle fairs are permissible; at present they are shut up. - - - - 15,032. Is Skipton the centre of a considerable agricultural district 2–There is an immense district round about. 15,033. And the cattle are brought here for sale – Yes, from 20 miles round. 15,034. How many fairs are there in the course of the year —There are fortnightly fairs besides annual fairs. 15,035. Do you think that the fact of those fairs being so frequent, and of the number of publichouses which there are in the town to meet the requirements of the people coming to the town, has been injurious to the moral condition of the people 2–No, the injury is only for one day. 15,036. Do you think that it does not leave its mark after that day has passed ?–I think not. Of course that day is a day when everybody must have refreshment in one shape or another. 15,037. Do you know the district below Skipton through which the river Aire passes?–Yes. 15,038. We had it stated to us just now, that in consequence of the works which have been carried out, floods are less frequent now than they were for- merly –They are much less frequent. 15,039. It was stated yesterday, at Keighley, that in the neighbourhood of Skipton, when these floods were so frequent and excessive, fever used to be also very frequent ; was that your experience –Yes. 15,040. Have you observed any diminution in that fever ?—I have. 15,041. There is less fever now *-Yes. 15,042. Do you attribute that to the carrying out of these works?–Yes; and the improvement of the health of the people by the drainage of all the villages and towns about. - 15,043. How long have these works for the im- provement of the river been executed 2–Five or six years, not more than that. 15,044. But within that period the improvement in the health of the people has been so marked that you can state it as a fact –I can. 15,045. Have you ague in the valley — I may almost say never; I have not seen more than two or three cases of ague in the whole course of my practice. 15,046. Had you formerly much fever in Skipton itself?–Yes, and in Carlton, which is on the borders of the river. We are a mile from the river, and there is a good fall to the river. 15,047. What was the character of that fever ?– Typhoid. 15,048. Is it as frequent now as it used to be?— No ; it is now very infrequent, whereas formerly there were 70 or 80 cases in one winter. This was the largest number I ever had. It was in 1835. 15,049. Have improvements been made in the vil- lage of Carlton as well as in Skipton –Yes, great improvements. 15,050. And do you attribute to those improvements the absence of fever ?—I should say so, or rather to general improvement of the village itself. 15,051. (Professor Way.) Has there been much land drainage in this neighbourhood —There has always been drainage going on. 15,052. Does the draining of a district improve its health 2–Of course it does. 15,053. (Chairman.) On what beck is the village of Carlton situated?—It is south-west of the river. 15,054. Is it situated on a beck 2–There is a small beck which comes down, but of no great moment. 15,055. Are there lead mines situated on that beck? —No, there are lead mines below, but not there. 15,056. What is the name of the beck on which the lead mines are situated 2–It has not any particular name; the lead mines are three miles from Skipton. 15,057. Are those lead mines the property of the Duke of Devonshire 2–They are ; they are situated down on the south road to Keighley. - 15,058. Do you know anything of that district 2– Yes, I know it very well. Rivers commission :-MINUTEs of Evin ENCE. 447 15,059. Is there any refuse sent from those lead mines which is at all injurious to the water P-Not that I know of. The village is now supplied with good water. 15,060. Is the water used by the people residing on the banks —Yes, they used to use that lead water. 15,061. You would not recommend that lead water for domestic use 2–Certainly not. 15,062. (Professor Way.) The river after receiving the water from the lead mines does not come to you, does it 2–No the lead mines are three miles south. 15,063. (Chairman.) In your experience, do you attribute any of the sickness to the presence of ash- pits close to the houses –All ashpits are nuisances, and are likely to create disease, but we have not many ashpits here. 15,064. Are you an advocate for their being con- verted into waterclosets – I never thought much upon the subject. I know that the privies used to be very bad on account of the great number of people who had to go to them. We have not had time to give an opinion upon the waterclosets; they have only come into use in the last two years. The witness withdrew. Mr. BENSON BAILEY (Skipton) examined. 15,065. (Chairman.) How many years have you resided at Skipton 2–40. 15,066. Are you the Registrar of Births and Deaths for the neighbourhood?—Yes. 15,067. What is the extent of the district for which you keep the register How many townships does it include 2–Eight. 15,068. Can you give us the death rate in those several townships at present?—It is about 26 per 1,000. 15,069. Will you give it to us in each separate township if you can do so?—I cannot do that ; I have made my calculation upon the township of Skipton, and not for each township, but I believe that the average will be almost the same, viz., 26 throughout the district. 15,070. Can you give us the population of each township –I cannot at present. 15,071. Are the townships, other than Skipton, more of the character of villages and detached houses * —Yes. 15,072. Do you think that the death rate is as high there as it is in the town of Skipton –Perhaps not quite, but there will not be very much difference. 15,073. Is it as high as 26 in 1,000 out in the coun- try?—I think so, as nearly as I can calculate it. 15,074. Can you tell us what it has been for some years past —There has not been very much variation, except in cases where there has been an epidemic. 15,075. Can you give it to us for a few years?—I daresay that I could with a little calculation ; I have observed the matter for several years, and I have made the result about that. I believe that 26 per 1,000 annually is nearly correct as the number of deaths. 15,076. Did you hear the evidence of the last wit- ness, Mr. Marsden 2–1 was present. 15,077. Did you hear him state that his experience was that the health of the people in this neighbour- hood was very much improved of late years?—I think that I did hear him say so. 15,078. Is not that rather inconsistent with the return which you give us of the death rate –The death rate seems rather high. The witness (Mr. Dewhurst.) There is a workhouse in Skipton with 100 inmates, which is the workhouse for nearly fifty townships, and which contains a number of aged people, the whole of the mortality of that workhouse 15,079. And from your account it seems to have been high for years past?—Yes. 15,080. Will you be kind enough to give us the death rate and the population of your district for as many years back as you can ; that is to say, between 1851 and 1861, and up to the present time 2—I will do so. 15,081. (Professor Way.) In the outlying districts is there much consumption ?—The most prevalent diseases are bronchitis and phthisis or consumption. 15,082. And that, I suppose, has increased of late in the outlying districts, the exposed districts on the hill sides for instance?—From those districts there is very generally bronchitis. 15,083. And I suppose that an unusual death rate in an agricultural area may be occasioned by the fact of its comprising exposed and elevated districts where consumption occurs to a great extent —I do not know that consumption prevails more in elevated districts, than it does in other places. I think that it is about as prevalent in the town as in the country, and in the country as in the town. 15,084. The question is whether your district is more liable to consumption than a more southerly district, that you do not know 2–That I do not know of course. 15,085. (Chairman.) How many years have you been registrar –About 21. 15,086. Is the district of which you keep the register the same now as it was 20 years ago?— Yes. 15,087. Can you give us the number of inhabitants within that district, and the deaths per annum then, and the number of inhabitants and the deaths per annum now 2–I cannot do so at present. 15,088. Could you make out that return without much difficulty -—I could make it out from 1851 to 1861. 15,089. And on to the present time. If you will be kind enough to do so we shall be obliged to you? —I will do so. withdrew. comes into this township returns, and that increases our death rate. (Professor Way.) That is an important mortality ? (Mr. Dewhurst.) Yes. Mr. LEONARD HoRNER (Skipton) examined. 15,090. (Chairman.) Do you live at Skipton –Yes. 15,091. Are you engaged in any manufacture ?— In the lead manufacture, sheet lead and pipes. 15,092. From pigs of lead –Yes. 15,093. You obtain pigs of lead from the manufac- turers and convert them into pipes and sheets 2–We manufacture pigs of lead into sheets and pipes. 15,094. Is there any refuse from your works?— There are ashes. 15,095. What do you do with them —We have them carried away by the boat on the Leeds and Liver- pool canal. 15,096. You do not turn any of your ashes into the river?—No. - - 15,097. How many hands do you employ —Ten. 15,098. Have you steam-power?—Yes. 15,099. Of about what amount –16 horse. 15,100. What becomes of the excrement from the men about your premises?—That is taken away about every three months and is put on to the land. 15,101. None of it goes into the river?—None of it, we are not situated on the river, we are situated on the Leeds and Liverpool canal. 15,102. What quantity of lead do you manufacture in the course of the year 2–On an average about 2,500 tons. - 15,103. Where do you obtain it 2–From the Duke of Devonshire's mines at Grassington and Cononley, SKIPTON. Mr. W. Marsden. 29 Nov. 1866. Mr. B. Bailey. Mr. L. Horner. 3 K. 4 448 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. L. Horner. B. H. Bradley. and a great quantity out of the north, from Richmond and from Llanelly in South Wales. 15,104. Do you know what weight of lead is obtained from the Grassington Valley —At present the mines are very poor, in the neighbouring mines about 400 tons a year are produced, and at Cononley 200. 15,105. Do they wash the ore there 2–Yes. 15,106. Do you visit the works?—No, I have not been there since 1 was a child. I cannot give you much information with respect to the washings at Grassington. 15,107. Do you know lead mines generally; have you visited them in other parts –No. 15,108. (Professor Way.) You do not smelt at all —No, we are not smelters, but merely manufacturers. 15,109. Have you to melt the lead —The lead is melted. 15,110. You have I suppose to cast it in certain plates before rolling it —Yes. 15,111. Is much dross produced 2–About 4 tons of lead ore will produce about , cwt. of lead, and we smelt the ashes about every nine months. 15,112. So as to get out of them any lead which has escaped 2–Yes. 15, 113. Do you smelt the dross at the same time 2– We preserve it until we get a sufficient quantity and then the smelter comes over and smelts the ashes for us. 15,114. What I call the dross is what you call the ashes 2–Yes. 15,115. Is the silver taken out of your lead 2–No; the duke's lead I suppose will not pay for extracting the silver, it is too poor. 15, 116. They do not attempt to extract the silver at the works do they –No, the lead is too poor, the process would not pay. 15,117. Is the health of your men good?—It is generally good, we have men that have been from 20 to 30 years on the premises. 15,118. You do not, I suppose, use water in any part of your operation ?—No. 15,119. Are the men never affected through the skin by working the lead, have they not gripings, or lead cholic –No, I have not known a case of the kind. We have ventilators over each pan, to carry off the fumes. The witness withdrew. The witness subsequently added to his evidence the following note: The watercourses should be provided with filters to keep out the quantity of gravel arising from the washings; and should be kept clear of dead dogs, etc., which being left in, in a dry season are an intolerable nuisance. Mr. BENJAMIN HUTTON BRADLEY (Skipton) examined. 15,120. (Chairman.) How far do you live from Skipton 2–About a mile to the south. 15,121. You are vice-chairman of the Skipton Board of Guardians ?—I am. 15,122. How many parishes are there in your union ?—About 51. 15,123. What is the area —About 150,000 acres. 15,124. What is the population ?—About 37,000. I did not come here prepared to give any evidence, I was merely present as a listener. 15,125. As vice-chairman of the Board of Guardians have you observed the working of the Nuisances Removal Act 2–We have had very little to do with it. 15,126. Have you not had to to with it for some years?—Some years ago when it became the law the guardians were concerned with it. 15,127. Did you then take any steps to remove nuisances in the union ?—I was not in connexion with the board at that time. 15,128. The matter of nuisances is not now so immediately placed under the control of the board of guardians?—It is not. 15,129. How many years have you been a guardian * —I have been vice-chairman for six years. I was a guardian two years previously, making about eight years altogether. 15,130. Skipton is within the Skipton Union ?— Yes. 15,131. Do you find that the health of the poor in Skipton has at all improved during your guardianship 2 —It has decidedly improved, the people are better kept, and better attended to than they were. There is in fact no destitution in the neighbourhood; they are all well employed, and are as comfortable as you would expect them to be in their position. 15,132. Considering the population of your union, 100 strikes me as being a small number to have in the workhouse –It is a very small number. 15,133. Are they chiefly infirm persons or children P —We have scarcely an ablebodied person at present in the workhouse. 15,134. I believe that as well as being vice- chairman to the Board of Guardians you are one of the Airedale Improvement Commissioners?—I am. 15,135. Have you been so since the commencement 2 —Yes. 15,136. How many years ago was that?—The Act was got in 1861, but not much work was done till 1862. - 15,137. Have the works in this neighbourhood been carried out for some years —Yes, they have been completed in this neighbourhood for about three Year’S. 15,138. Have you derived the beneficial effects which you expected from the execution of those works?—The health of the district is very much improved by them, and the land is improved to a con- siderable extent, 15,139. What evidence have you with respect to the improvement in the health of the people —The villages were subject to fever from time to time, and it lingered about them for a long time, and there was a great loss of life. Within the last three years I do not know a case of any village suffering very much from fever. We had one case of typhus fever in our village at Bradley but it died away, and did not spread at all in the village. Previously, when a case of typhus fever broke out, it went through the village and would linger a long time about it. 15,140. As a member of the Board of Guardians of the poor you would have experience upon that point —It is in that position that I see more of it than I otherwise should do. It is rather unfortunate that you have not the registrar from the Crosshills district here, they suffered very much from fever there. I think that he would have been able to show that the health of the district has very much improved since the drainage has been carried out. 15,141. It is highly desirable that we should have that information if you can get it for us?--I will speak to the registrar upon the point. 15,142. (Professor Way.) Has there been lately any diminution in the poor rate –There has been a re-assessment, and since the alteration of the law many townships which before paid scarcely any poor rate now pay the full rate, and of course other town- ships are relieved to the same extent. 15,143. But have you any means of knowing the rate in the pound 3–The total will be abont one-third less. 15,144. Then taking the whole district the rate has positively diminished –Yes, the rate for the whole union will be about one-third less than it was, but what the result is to any particular township must depend much upon the effect of the alteration in the law. 15,145. But your experience would point out to you that a diminution in the causes of disease, and there- fore in disease, and in the attendant deaths as well as discomforts, would alter the amount of the poor rate —Yes; disease has a serious effect upon rates. We have frequently had families who have RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 449 been costing us 14s, or 15s, a week, of course that is for out-door relief, they could not be brought into the house in case of fever. 15,146. Therefore the reduction of the poor rate and the reduction of the death rate ought to have some relation to each other ?—They should. 15,147. (Chairman.) You heard the registrar mention that in the district for which he acts the death rate is about 26 per 1000 —Yes. 15,148. That as you probably know is a high death rate for a country district as this is to a great extent, how can you account for it —I do not know that that is the case, I am not prepared to say whether the rate is 26 in 1,000 or not. 15,149. (Professor Way.) Are not the forms returned to the registrar general P-They are, perhaps you would like to see the returns for the union. The registrar for Skipton, whom you examined, would have no knowledge of the whole union. 15,150. Do you think that the death rate for Skipton is 26 in 1,000? (Mr. Dewhurst.) A few years ago it was above 30 in my recollection within the district of the Skipton Local Board of Health. (Mr. Bradley.) I suppose that in the workhouse in Skipton the deaths will average fully one in a fort- night, and those are frequently cases which are brought in from a distance. Very often aged people are removed. 15,151. That would especially affect the death rate in Skipton –It does so. It has been the custom for years past for families to leave this union to work in Bradford and Bingley and the districts below, and very often when they become infirm they are re- movable to our workhouse, and in that case of course we have a very old population thrown into our workhouse. 15,152. Is it not the case that one death in a fort- night, that is to say 26 deaths in a year, occurring in the union workhouse would account for five or six out of the 26 per 1,000?–It has a very material effect upon the death-rate for Skipton. 15,153. The population is 5,000. One death in a fortnight is exactly 26 in a year, and the death rate of the whole 5,000 is 26 per 1,000, and therefore the deaths in the workhouse are five or six out of the 26, which reduces the death rate proper to 20 °–Yes; the mortality in the workhouse must have a very considerable effect upon the death rate in Skipton. 15,154. (Chairman.) Do you occupy any land in the valley of the Aire —I do. 15,155. To what extent 2—About 130 acres. 15,156. Is any of it land which has been improved by the Airedale commissioners ?–Yes. 15,157. To what extent 2–About 40 acres. 15,158. Did you occupy that land before the improvements were made *—I did. 15,159. And as the tenant of that land do you experience improvement from the works which have been executed 2–As to the lower part of it, decidedly. 15,160. Is it pasture land 2–Yes. The floods are less frequent than they were, and the water gets away more rapidly. Formerly if we had a considerable fresh the river would frequently be from 24 to 48 hours in getting down, and now it gets down in two or three hours, excepting in the case of an extraor- dinary flood, such as we have had lately. 15,161. Have you made internal drainage as well as improvement in the river itself so as to carry the water off from that land to a lower level?—Yes; the land was drained before the commissioners improved the river, but since the improvement of course our drains have had a better effect. You were speaking about impediments in the river and about the river silting up. We find by experience that in almost all places where the Aire has silted up currents or becks run into the river. 15,162. Nearly at right angles 2–Nearly at right angles, or in any case where a considerable amount of wreck is brought into the river, and it is there that impediment generally takes place. 17159.-2. - 15,163. A deposit is formed at the mouth of the beck, and that creates an obstruction to the river Aire itself?—Yes; in almost every case the impedi- ment has been caused by a brook in that way. 15,164. As commissioners you have executed some works to prevent this débris being carried into the river Aire, have you not *—Yes. 15,165. A kind of trap 2–Yes. 15,166. What do you call them 2–We call them gravel-traps. 15,167. Have those gravel-traps been successful?— Yes. Where the Glusburn beck enters the Aire there are three traps in succession, one above another. They are filling up now and want cleaning out. At Cononley Beck there has been no ground trap made, and the refuse brought into the river there is particu- larly heavy, because the beck comes from the Duke of Devonshire's lead mines. The deposit from that beck when it gets into the bed of the river remains there. It does not drift down in the same way as the loose gravel. 15,168. After the heavy flood the other day has much deposit collected at the mouth of that beck?— I have not been down since the water subsided. 15,169. If a considerable collection of gravel accumulated at the mouth of that beck the improve- ments which you have made might be almost negatived by this formation during a heavy flood —Yes. They are about to make a gravel-trap there, but I think that the work is not yet contracted for. It is ordered to be done. 15,170. What do you consider to be the increase caused by the improvements in the annual value of the land which you occupy and which was subject to flooding –The drainage will not be a success in a monetary point of view. 15,171. How do you account for that ?—The works have cost more than they were expected to do, and the area to be benefited is much less than was anticipated. 15,172. But the health of the district is very decidedly improved 2–Decidedly. 15,173. Do you know the district below Keighley P —Not very well. I have of course seen it, but I do not know much about it. 15,174. Are you aware that Mr. Ferrand and others think that you benefit yourselves at their expense?— I saw his statement, but I did not believe it. 15, 174a. You admit that the water goes away from your district more readily than it used to do —The old course of the Eller beck was from Skipton valley to the Carlton Wood Bridge; a new cutting was made from near Skipton to a point below Carlton Stone Bridge, so that the water now discharges itself about a mile lower down the river than formerly, and in an ordi- nary fresh will be out of the district before the flood from the upper part of this valley joins. 15,175. So that you anticipate the flood, and discharge some of the water at a period previous to that at which it used to be discharged, and the result is that there does not come down so much in bulk as there did formerly 3–The land which I occupy down the river is below the junction of the new cutting, and of course if any lands would be more subject to flood than others it would be just those where the river and the beck brought together. My first im- pression was that when that cutting was made we were doing away with the large reservoir above and should be more subject to flood, but in practice we find that the water comes down so much more readily that it gets away before the upper water reaches us, so much so that instead of having frequent floods we have only had two general floods since the river was altered. One was on the occasion of an ex- cessive thunderstorm in the Aire after the river was diverted, and the other has been the present flood. Of course nothing could have saved us from either flood. 15,176. Has the present flood continued as long upon the land as a similar flood would formerly have done?—No; the valley below would have been a swamp for a long time to come under the old state of things. 3 L SKIPTON. Mr. B. H. Bradley. 29 Nov. 1866. 450 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, SKIPTON. Mr. B. H. Bradley. 29 Nov. 1866. --- Mr.A.Nicolson- C.E. - 15,177. The water from it gradually passing off?— Yes. 15,178. Are you aware that the view which those below take of this district is that it is a kind of reser- voir for them, and that the water formerly went down gradually and gave them power in a much more steady manner than it does now 2–I had the same impression until I saw the new arrangement worked. I thought that the reservoir was being taken away, and that we should have flooding to a greater extent below, but that does not appear to be the case in practice. 15,179. (Professor Way.) I suppose that if any persons below are aggrieved it is open to them in like manner to arrange to pass the water on to somebody else?–Yes. 15,180. And improvement must not be retarded be- cause some persons are behind others ?–No. I think you asked Mr. Marsden some questions with regard to ague. About the year 1798 there were some works carried out in the Bradley Ings. Previously to that time I have heard people say that the inhabitants were very subject to ague in the valley, but it ceased to exist after those works were made. 15,181. (Chairman.) Those works expedited the clearing off of the water –Yes; and now with the extra works you have a considerable diminution of fever. In fact there is scarcely any fever but typhus fever, which sometimes exists. 15,182. The first works removed the ague, and the second works removed fever ?–Yes, so far as I can judge. 15,183. Where these banks exist on each side of the river Aire have you found the bed of the river rise in your recollection ?–No. The rising of the bed of the river has been simply from deposit in the bed, so far as my observation goes. 15,184. (Professor Way.) Are you aware that ague has been disappearing from this country altogether in the last few years?–1 merely speak of this locality. 15,185. Do you know that in the districts in which it formerly lurked it is not to be found now. There is a place at the mouth of the river Thames called Foul- mess where nothing has been done in the way of drainage, it was exceedingly subject to ague, but is not so now *-I cannot speak upon that point. 15,186. (Chairman.) Is the land which you occupy conveniently situated for taking the sewage of Skipton upon it —No. 15,187. If you had land so situated should you be willing to take the sewage upon it?–Yes, I should be very glad to have an opportunity of doing so. 15,188. Do you think that you could apply it with advantage and without expense to the town —Of course, if it was brought to me I could apply it with considerable advantage without expense to anybody. 15,189. Then you think that the whole expense which they would be at to apply their sewage would be in extending their sewer to the point of discharge 2 —ſ should think so. 15,190. And that then a farmer would be very willing to take the sewage and apply it to his land 2–1 should think so. I should for one; but I see here the agent of Sir Richard Tufton, who is the owner of nearly the whole of the land to which it could be applied. 15,191. Is there anything else to which you would wish to draw our attention ?—I do not know whether you have exactly a correct impression about the new cutting in the Eller beck below the town, that is, before the Eller beck gets to the Aire. 15, 192. Does that come within the district of the Airedale Improvement Commissioners ?–Yes, 15,193. That was I think mentioned by Mr. Sidg- wick 3–Yes, I think that he named it. During the summers of 1864 and 1865 and the early part of 1866, which was dry, the mills above were able to hold back nearly the whole of the water of the beck, and then that cutting was left dry during the evenings, and the stench from it was very bad indeed. 15,194. The sewage was discharged into the bed of an empty stream 2–Yes, 15,195. That would be an argument in favour of applying it to land 2–Decidedly. 15,196. And, as a farmer, does it not rather grieve you than otherwise to see all that sewage going away and not being applied usefully —I would much rather see it utilized. I do not know whether what I am about to mention is within your province, but the board of health in order to get rid of the refuse from their privies have made a receptacle about a quarter of a mile out of the town; the place chosen is as public a place as they could have it, it is almost where the Carlton Road leaves the Keighley Road. The soil is led there, and is deposited and remains there for weeks. 15,197. Is the place near any dwellings?—There are two very good houses, new buildings, which are un- fortunately placed between that spot and the Eller beck cutting. 15, 198. Have the persons residing in those houses applied to you as guardians for the removal of the nuisance 2–No ; they are within the jurisdiction of our improvement board and being members of the board of health they have the remedy in their own hands if they like. 15,199. If they signed a paper and sent it to you as guardians, you could inspect and order the removal?— No, we could not. 15,200. The remedy exists 2–It exists, but it rests with the board of health. 15,201. (Professor Way.) After all, I suppose this is merely a transitory evil; it arises from the cleansing out of these privies, and the privies are in course of being abolished?—Yes. 15,202. But still you think that the cleansing might be done in a better way?–To lead the soil so near the town and to let it remain there is a nuisance. 15,203. Could it be disposed of directly for agricul- tural purposes —There would be more cost to some one. They deposit it in the nearest place, and it remains there until it is required, and then it is fetched away. 15,204. And it remains there to its own injury, I suppose 2–Of course, it wastes very much. The witness withdrew. Mr. ANGUs Nicolson, C.E. (Skipton), examined. 15,205. (Chairman.) Are you a resident at Skip- ton 2–1 am. 15,206. I believe you are agent to Sir Richard Tufton –I am his local agent. 15,207. You have charge of his land in the neigh- bourhood of Skipton –Yes. 15,208. What extent of property does Sir Richard Tufton possess in this neighbourhood?—Land worth about 15,000l. a year. 15,209. Does much of the town of Skipton belong to him?—From one-fourth to one-third of the town. 15,210. Is the condition of the houses in that part of the town good —Yes, it is very fair. 15,211. You are interested in any improvements which are recommended by the local board of health, and you see to them and have them executed?—Yes, they are carried out at once. - 15,212. And in general are they, in your opinion, well carried out 3–Yes, but I do not think that the system of sewerage has been well carried out. 15,213. What do you think is objectionable in it 2 —The design was very good, but it has been carried out imperfectly; in the first place, they used very in- ferior material in constructing the sewers; in fact, they have been constructed of the refuse of brick yards, and in forming the main sewers through the streets they plugged off all the old drains and did not form new drains till a long time afterwards, and some of them I have no doubt are unformed yet. itſ yºk's COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 451 * 15,214. What is the stratification through which the sewer passed ?–In some places clay, but to a great extent gravel. 15,215. And the refuse found its way into that gravel instead of into the sewer –Yes, and came back into the houses. - 15,216. Have you found cases where such an objec- tionable result has occurred 2–Yes, some of them occurred to houses under my charge. - 15,217. Was there illness consequent upon it?–Yes. 15,218, Cases which you know 2–Yes. 15,219. Does the evil exist at present, or has it been remedied ?–It has been corrected wherever we have found it to exist. - 15,220. In what other way do you think that the system of sewerage has not been well carried out 2– Many of the side drains which have been executed are stopped up, and are subject to stopping up ; they do not act well. 15,221. There is not a sufficient fall 2–I suppose so ; they are not built with a regular gradient. 15,222. Do you think that to any great extent there is an accumulation of dirt between the houses and the sewers ?—We have found it in some cases. . 15,223. (Professor Way.) Are pipes used for the sewers?—Yes, in all side drains. 15,224. (Chairman.) And they are not well laid? —They are not. 15,225. Are those side pipes laid under the direction of the board of health 2–Yes. 15,226. But the work has been inefficiently exe- cuted 2–Yes, in many cases. 15,227. We have heard that the main sewers them- selves are well flushed out; have you found that to be the case ?—Yes; I believe that they are; we have an abundance of water. 15,228. Is the mischief of which you complain in the house connexions —Yes; in the house drains. 15,229. Do you know the outlet of the main sewer —Yes. 15,230. Does it discharge near Sir Richard Tuf- ton’s land 2–On his land. 15,231. Is there land below that outlet which would be suitable for sewage irrigation ?–Not immediately below, but the sewage could be carried by gravitation to land further down at some cost. 15,232. What length must the sewer be extended so as to reach that land 2–200 or 300 yards. 15,233. 200 or 300 yards would take it upon the surface?–Yes, but deep cutting would be required. 15,234. What depth of cutting 2– The sewage might be taken in two or three directions; but the plan where it could be used with the best effect would be lower down the valley southward ; there is rising ground there so that I should think that a cutting of 15 feet would be requisite. 15,235. (Professor Way.) Could not the sewer follow the course of the stream *-The stream as diverted is in a cutting of 12 feet deep. 15,236. Supposing that pipes were laid near the bed of the stream, would there then be any necessity for deep cuttings —Yes, because the stream is on a rising ground ; in fact, there is a cutting formed for the Stream. 15,237. Could not the pipe go in the stream itself without objection ?–No ; I do not think that that could be done. 15,238. (Chairman.) What do you think would be the cost of extending the sewer —I am scarcely pre- pared to say that just now ; the cutting is not bad. 15,239. Does the land which you say would be suit- able belong to Sir Richard Tufton —Yes. 15,240. Would Sir Richard Tufton be willing to have the sewage distributed over that land P-It de- pends upon the quality of the sewage matter ; there is much water here ; the rainfall is so great and so much water is used for domestic purposes, and so little sewage matter goes into the sewer, that I am doubtful whether the contents of the sewers would have a good effect upon the land; it is a subject for consideration. 15,241. (Professor Way.) I suppose that one rea- son why the system of waterclosts does not get deve- loped to its utmost, is that it results in the fouling of the stream 2–I think that there is another reason, namely, that we are generally short of water here in Sulf Illner". 15,242. We understood from the manager of the water works that he could readily supply from 20 to 30 gallons per head all the year round —Not in sum- mer; we have been for months in summer almost without any water, with only a very short supply. 15,243. Supposing the sewage of this town to be carried on to the land, is it not probable that the water. closet system would be extended, so that you would get a stronger and more useful liquid for agricultural purposes – Yes, if you had sufficient water. 15,244. One hangs upon the other to a great ex- tent –Yes; waterclosets become an injury if there is no water for them in summer ; they become offen- sive, and instead of improving the health of the house, they are an injury. 15,245. (Chairman.) Your objection is that in summer there is not water sufficient to cleanse the waterclosets properly or to throw the matter on to the land, even if there was the land which would take it? Exactly so. 15,246. And therefore you object to going to any expense to carry out sewage irrigation ?—I am not sure that Sir Richard Tufton would go to expense in any case; it depends very much upon the analysis of the contents of the sewers. 15,247. (Professor Way.) In estimating the strength of the sewage, should you not look forward to the time when the water supply will be sufficient for watercloset purposes in summer as well as in winter, instead of adopting as a standard the present state of the water supply?—Precisely; sewage mat- ter might be applied with advantage to land where the subsoil is porous, so that a large quantity of water laid upon the soil would pass off quickly, but land where the subsoil is clay would require a very expen- sive system of drainage before sewage could be ap- plied with advantage. 15,248. (Chairman.) At Norwood, sewage is carried on upon stiff land with very great success –We have a very wet climate here, and our land as a rule is saturated with water. 15,249. What is the rainfall in this district 2–1 should say about 45 inches. 15,250. Is that the average or does it vary 2–1 have never gauged it. (Mr. Heelis.) Last year it was 32 inches, but that was an exceptional year ; we were nearly burnt up. I believe that the average is about 36 inches. 15,251. (Professor Way.) (To Mr. Nicolson.) Would the rainfall be greater here than at Keighley —I should say so; we are here surrounded by very considerable moors. The experiment could be very easily applied here; perhaps on an extent of land of 20 to 30 acres it could be tried at a very trifling cost. 15,252. Twenty-five acres would take the whole of your sewage –We could obtain 25 acres for such an experiment, on which it could be tried without any cost for any cutting. I quite think that the experiment is worth trying. 15,253. (Chairman.) Have you ever considered the question of the management under which the river should be placed; or if the government deemed it requisite that rivers should not be polluted, have you considered what preventive measures might be success- fully carried out 2–I think that there should be some separate staff for the conservancy of the rivers, apart from local bodies altogether. 15,254. You would not leave it to Skipton to keep the sewage of Skipton out of the river ?—By no means. 15,255. Under whom would you place the staff which you suggest ?—If there was a national scheme for the purpose, I should think that there would be some central authority for regulating all the minor machinery throughout the country; but if the work was only done on a small-scale, for instance, for Skip- ton alone, the matter might be left with advantage to the local authorities, to the board of health. -- 15,256. (Professor Way.) Taking the two districts SKIPTON. M.r.A.Nicolson > C.E. 29 Nov. 1866. --- 3 L 2 452 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. SKIPTON. Mr.A.Nicolson, E. --- of the Aire and Calder, supposing that any measure passed the legislature for the purification or preven- tion of the pollution of those two rivers, would you think it right to have a local body as well as a central controlling authority, such as the county magistrates or any other body which might be suggested. You would not I presume like to be placed entirely at the disposal of the central authority ?—I should think that the measure would be carried out more efficiently by being under the entire control of the central authority, because in many places the magistrates are the very parties who are most interested in works which pol- lute the river. 15,257. (Chairman.) You mean that many of the manufacturers are magistrates?—Yes. 15,258. But I think that from the experience which we have gained in this inquiry, the manufacturers themselves are very willing to carry out a system of prevention, if it can be shown how it is to be done, and if the system is general?—I am glad to hear it. 15,259. (Professor Way.) At all events those who themselves suffer from pollution, are not only ready, but anxious for a remedy which shall be applied to them simultaneously –Many parties are anxious for remedies so long as they do not cost them anything, but if the remedy is a costly one they are not so eager to carry it out. 15,260. (Chairman.) Have you observed the works of the Airedale Improvement Commissioners ?—I am one of the deputy commissioners. 15,261. Have you heard the evidence which has been given to us by Mr. Bradley P—Yes. 15,262. Do you corroborate that evidence —I can- not say that I do in every respect. 15,263. In what respect do not you corroborate it 2– I think that the whole scheme has been imperfectly carried out. The original design was a very good one, and had it been carried out it would have been a very great advantage to the valley, but it was only partially carried out, and at a cost considerably above the original estimate. 15,264. Then you think that there has not been so much improvement as there might have been?—By no Ine:all S. 15,265. Do you think that there has been an im- provement to a certain extent —An improvement in some places and an injury in others. 15,266. Within the district of the Commissioners ? —Yes. 15,267. Some parts of the valley are benefited at the expense of other parts —Just so. 15,268. Do you think it probable that persons residing below Keighley have any ground to complain that, speaking generally, these improvements have been made at their expense —I know very little of the country below Keighley ; that is a thing which I can- not speak to. 15,269. But the water being passed off more rapidly from this district, may give rise to greater flooding below —It is passed off more quickly from the upper and middle portions of the district, but lodges in the lower portion about Silsden. 15,270. Does not it pass off more quickly –In some localities it does, and in others it does not. We have lands flooded now which never used to be flooded before, 15,271. Do you agree with Mr. Bradley as to the improvement in the health of the people residing upon the banks 2–Yes, I believe that the work has had a good effect, especially about Kilwick and Cross Hills : they have derived more benefit than any other districts, because the surface of the river has been lowered to the extent of 10 feet by the removal of shoals; shoals are accumulated at the junction of the streams with the river to an immense extent, those districts have been very much benefited both agriculturally and in the health of the inhabitants. 15,272. Have you observed the action of the gravel traps ?—I have. 15,273. Is it satisfactory —So far as they go they act very well, but they are expensive. 15,274. What do you expect as a commissioner to have to do with the gravel which is collected in them P —I think that the gravel could be sold for different purposes; the larger gravel could be sold for road metal, and the smaller gravel and sand could be sold for garden and building purposes. 15,275. Do you think that there would be a sale for it —Yes, in most districts. 15,276. Of course all that you can keep out of the river Aire is an improvement to the river generally * —Yes, it is of immense importance that the gravel should be trapped, because the shoals have been removed at very great cost, and they are now form- ing again in many cases. 15,277. You commissioners, I presume, are a con- tinuous body ?—Yes. 15,278. And it will be your duty to remove those shoals after such a flood as this?—Yes, we should do it. 15,279. Have you power to raise a rate upon the adjoining land for such purposes —Yes, full powers. 15,280. Within what area does that power exist?— I think that the area is 1,200 acres. 15,281. How is it defined 2–By plan and schedule. 15,282. Made before the works were executed 3– Yes. 15,283. (To Mr. Bradley.) You have heard the observations made by Mr. Nicolson as to the improve- ment of portions of the valley by the works of the Airedale commissioners, and the injury done to others? —Yes. I presume that Mr. Nicolson means by the part which is not improved, some part where the works are not yet finished. I was asked the other day by Mr. Sidgwick, who is one of the commissioners, to go down to the Holden beck to observe the action of the river there, that was before the flood, and to see what I thought about a cutting being made there to relieve the land which has been referred to. It appears pretty clear that the actual drainage of that part of the valley is defective yet, but that by removing the im- pediments at the foot of the stream it would be con- siderably improved. I suppose that Mr. Nicolson refers to that point. 15,284. (To Mr. Nicolson.) As I understand you, your argument is this, that in the first place the works were very well designed, and that if they had been fully carried out you think that the result would have been beneficial to the whole of the valley — Yes, very much so. 15,285. But you say that they have only been partially carried out, and that therefore they benefit some parts at the expense of others ?—Just so. 15,286. Your argument would go to this, that the whole should be carried out as originally designed ?– They have unfortunately in some places departed from the original design. 15,287. In order to diminish the expense —Yes. 15,288. But that, I presume, was done with the consent of the whole commissioners ?—With the con- sent of a majority of them. 15,289. Was the original design subject to the supervision of any Government officer –No. 15,290. It was done by Act of Parliament 2–Yes. 15,291. Have you under that Act the power of carrying out a part of the works or of altering them 2 —I cannot speak to that point; I think that it is questionable. 15,292. You are aware that there is now a land drainage commission; you know the Land Drainage Act which was passed a few years ago?—I do. 15,293. Commissioners are appointed under that Act 2–Yes. 15,294. And changes made in drainage such as this, would now be submitted to them. An officer of the commission would be sent down to examine the locality and to say whether the plans were sufficient, and I rather think that the works must be carried out in accordance with those plans. You would approve of such a system in preference to this Act of Parlia- ment under which you are now acting 2–Decidedly, because works are too often made to suit estimates instead of public utility. 29 Nov. 1866. The witness withdrew. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 453 Mr. JoHN CALVERT (Skipton) further examined. 15,295. (Chairman.) You have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Nicolson —I have. 15,296. You mentioned that you could supply, and did supply about 100,000 gallons a water a day to the people of Skipton —That is about the average. 15,297. Mr. Nicolson mentions to us, that in the summer time you cannot supply that volume of water —In a very droughty summer we could not supply that quantity. 15,298. What quantity were you enabled to supply in the summers of 1864 and 1865 —We were able to give a supply of five hours a day for two months, and for the remainder of the time a full supply. 15,299. Was that the case in each year 2–In each of those two years. 15,300. (Professor Way.) Five hours each day would be one-fifth of the usual supply?—Yes. 15,301. It would be four gallons per head at that time 2—Yes. 15,302. (Chairman.) Have you any note of the volume of water which was actually drawn off on those occasions each day for the use of the day ?–I have not the particular measurement of it, but I have a certain mode of knowing what quantity of water passes each day into the town. 15,303. What was it then 2–It would be about one- fourth of the quantity which is passing into the town at this time. Y 15,304. One-fourth of 100,000 gallons a day ?— Y eS. 15,305. That is 25,000 gallons a day ?–Yes. 15,306. (Professor Way.) Is that the minimum on any one day —Yes, during the time of the greatest drought. 15,307. That is the minimum supply during the driest time 2—Yes. 15,308. (Chairman.) That would be five gallons per head per day ?—Yes. The witness withdrew. Mr. THOMAS CLARKE (Skipton) examined. 15,309. (Chairman.) You are fireman of the gas works at Skipton —Yes. 15,310. How many years have you been so em- ployed f-About 17 years. 15,311. Where are the works situated 2–At the railway station. 15,312. How many retorts have you ?–24. 15,313. What quantity of coal do you use in a year? —1,000 tons I think is now the average. 15,314. What quantity of gas do you manufacture from it 2–On the average about 10,000 cubic feet per ton. 15,315. How do you purify your gas 2–With dry lime. 15,316. What becomes of the refuse lime 2—It is contracted for by the farmers. 15,317. Do they take it away steadily –Yes. 15,318. Have you at any time any accumulation upon the premises —No, perhaps I have four or five cart loads. 15,319. You have not so much as to become a nuisance —No. 15,320. Are your men healthy —Yes, they are all healthy. 15,321. What becomes of your coke, have you a ready sale for it 2–Yes, we can clear it out every day; we have a customer who will take the whole. 15,322. What becomes of the tar and other refuse from your manufacture ?—It is contracted for ; it goes to Upton, near Accrington, at present. 15,323. Does anything at present go from your premises into the beck —No, I do not know that there is anything at present. 15,324. You do not pollute the stream at all ?—No, all the liquid goes into the tar vats, and the ammo- niacal vats. - 15,325. And all is sent away for sale?—Yes. 15,326. At what price do you supply gas —At 5s. 5d. for the small consumers, and for the large ones 5s. 15,327. (Professor Way.) Is not that a good deal for this district 2–Yes. 15,328. What do you give for your coals —Some of the coal is 1/. a ton. 15,329. But you use a mixture of coal?—Yes; the other coal would be about 14s, now, it is a little higher than it was. 15,330. Then the average cost is something like 16s, or 17s. per ton —I daresay. 15,331. What do you now get for your tar 2–I do not quite know. 15,332. Is it about 11, a ton?—Yes, or rather more. 15,333. What do get for your ammoniacal liquor —It is rather less; I do not know exactly the price. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 11 o'clock at Pontefract. Pontefract, Friday, 30th November 1866. PRESENT : ROBERT RAWTINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THORNHILL HARRISON, Esq. | Professor John THOMAS WAY. JoHN RouTLEDGE, Esq. (Pontefract), examined. 15,334. (Chairman.) Are you mayor of this borough? —Yes. 15,335. What is the population ?—About 5,346. 15,336. This is a very ancient corporation ?–Yes; it dates from the year 1484. It was incorporated by Richard III. in the second year of his reign. 15,337. Do you know the rateable value of the borough 2–About 15,000l. 15,338. It is both a municipal and a parliamentary borough 2–Yes, and it returns two members to Parliament. 15,339. Are the areas of the municipal and parlia- mentary boroughs the same —No, they are different. 15,340. How is the local government of the borough carried on ?–By the corporation and the street com- missioners. 15,341. The street commissioners are an indepen- dent body ?—Quite so. 15,342. You have not yet adopted the Local Government Act 2—No. 15,343. You act under your old charter ?—Yes. 15,344. The street commissioners, I assume, are a self-elected body ?—Yes. 15,345. How many are there 2–33. 15,346. Is the body regulated by a private Act of Parliament —Yes. SKIPTON. Mr. J. Calvert. 29 Nov. 1866. Mr. T. Clarke. -- PONTEFRACT. J. Routledge, Esq. 30 Nov. 1866. 3 I, 3 454 RIVERS COMMISSION :- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. PONTEFRACT. J. Routledge, Esq. 30 Nov. 1866. ----- Mr. E. Fernside. -- i5,347. Have you carried out any system of sewer- age in this town —Yes. -- 15,348. Where is the outlet 2—It runs into the canal. 15,349. What canal?—The Goole canal. 15,350. Then the main sewer empties itself into the canal?–Yes. 15,351. Have any complaints been made of this state of things 2–No. 15,352. Are you quite content to let it go on 2– No, for health’s sake it ought to be prevented. 15,353. I suppose the canal is not very foul ?—No. 15,354. Does the canal merely carry off the surface water of the streets —The sewage is emptied into tanks at the lower end of the town. 15,355. What goes into the canal?—Part of that sewage. 15,356. The overflow 2–Yes. 15,357. Is anything done with the sewage after it goes into the tanks –It is put upon land occasionally ; it consists principally of sand. 15,358. Are any manufactures carried on in Ponte- fract 2–No. 15,359. Then you do not pollute any of these streams by manufacturing processes?—No. 15,360. Nor do you obstruct the streams by any solid refuse 2–No. 15,361. You are not inconvenienced by flooding at all 2–No. 15,362. Is there a water supply for the town 2– Yes. - 15,363. In the hands of a company or the commis- sioners ?—The commissioners. 15,364. How long have those works been estab- lished 2–For 14 years. 15,365. Were they established by Act of Parlia- ment, or are they only permissive –The street com- missioners bought the property and sunk a well; the water is pumped up from a well. - 15,366. You are apparently very little interested in the inquiry we are conducting as to the pollution of rivers ?–No ; we have nothing to do with it. 15,367. As a municipal borough you are not much concerned with it 2–No. 15,368. How far is it in a straight line from Ponte- fract to the river ?—About two miles to the point where the sewage runs into the canal. Originally some pipes were laid down to carry the sewage into the river Aire, but those have been blocked up for many years, the scheme never having been completed, and now the sewage runs into the canal. 15,369. It was contemplated, as I understand you, to run the sewage down into the river ?–Yes; some pipes were laid down under the canal to be carried into the river. 15,370. (Mr. Harrison.) Is Knottingley included in the parliamentary borough 2–Yes. 15,371. And Castleford 2–No. 15,372. (Professor Way.) Did you state that the sewage runs into tanks 2–Yes. 15,373. But that it overflows from them 2–Yes, and runs into the canal; it has two miles to run before it goes in. 15,374. Is it treated in any way with any substance to precipitate it 2–No. 15,375. It merely deposits what it will deposit and then runs off 2–Yes. 15,376. Are these tanks large —Yes. 15,377. What size are they 2–I do not know. The witness withdrew. Mr. EDw1N FERNsidE (Pontefract) examined. 15,378. (Chairman.) What are you?—I am super- intendent of the borough police and inspector of nuisances. 15,379. For the municipal borough —Yes. 15,380. What number of houses are there in Ponte- fract 2–I do not know. 15,381. Eight or nine hundred —I cannot say. (The witness subsequently informed the Commissioners that there were 1,202 houses in Pontefract.) 15,382. How long have you acted as inspector of nuisances 2–Upwards of 10 years. 15,383. What are your duties 2–To inspect nui- sances and to report to the sanitary committee. 15,384. Under the Nuisances Removal Act 2–Yes. 15,385. Have many waterclosets been constructed in the borough 2–Yes, 175 waterclosets have been constructed. 15,386. In what class of property 2–Generally in the better class of dwelling houses and public buildings. 15,387. How is the sewage passed away ?—It goes into the main sewer, which empties itself into the Aire and Calder canal. 15,388. After passing through some tanks —Yes. 15,389. Are there many common privies and ash- pits in the poorer class of houses —Yes. There are 736 privies. 15,390. Where are they situated, generally speaking? —Generally behind the dwelling houses. 15,391. Are any of them placed under sleeping apartments or rooms in which there are occupants — There are a few, I believe. 15,392. Do not you know the fact –I know that there are several. - 15,393. Do many of the poor people keep pigs?— No ; what is called the pig nuisance has been a good deal suppressed by the sanitary committee. 15,394. It was a much greater nuisance than it is now 2–Yes. 15,395. Have you caused the nuisance to be re- moved 2–Yes. 15,396. Do the corporation take any cognizance of buildings about to be erected 2–No. 15,397. Does anyone build a house as he likes 2– Yes. 15,398. Have you ever to complain of buildings being too much crowded together on a given space of ground —I have had occasion to complain of some of the lodging-houses, of people keeping lodging- houses without being duly registered or licensed, and in such cases the offenders have been brought before the magistrates and punished under the provisions of the byelaws. 15,399. How many common lodging-houses are there within the municipal borough 2–18. 15,400. For how many lodgers are they registered —I can produce my register; I cannot say from memory. 15,401. Let me look at your register (the same was handed to the Chairman). Do you find any diffi- culty in carrying out the powers of the Act 2–None whatever. 15,402. When you first commenced to put the Act in force did you find any difficulty —No. 15,403. In what condition are the lodging-houses now as compared with what they were when you first began 2–They are in a very satisfactory state. 15,404. Better than when you first began 2–Yes, they are cleaner. 15,405. Do you compel the tenants to whitewash them when they require it 2–~Yes. 15,406. How many times a year —Twice a year. 15,407. Do you also see that there is proper ventila- tion to the rooms when occupied ?–Yes. 15,408. And a proper separation of the sexes in the lodgings for single persons?—Yes; under the recent Act of Parliament every day every lodging-house in the town is visited, and a report is made out similar to that (handing in the form). - 15,409. I perceive in this return that one house is licensed to take in 32 persons?–Yes. 15,410. Another is licensed to take in 122—Yes. 15,411. Another is licensed for six, another for eight, and another for ten ?–Yes; this (handing in the same) is a copy of the printed regulations, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 455 15,412. A great many of the lodgers, I believe, are not what you would term vagrants, but men on the tramp —Very many of them are: 15,413. You have hawkers, labourers, gasfitters, tailors, shoemakers, saddlers, glass blowers, and an ink- maker and his wife. These are persons moving from one town to another on the tramp seeking for employ- ment?–Yes. - 15,414. They go to these lodging-houses as the only place of resort they have –Yes. 15,415. What have they to pay a night?—3d, a night. 15,416. I suppose they are made to pay before they go upstairs 2–Yes, I believe that is the rule generally. - 15,417. What are the nuisances that trouble you most in this town 2–The street grates are perhaps the greatest nuisance I have to contend with. 15,418. You mean the gullies –Yes. 15,419. Do you perceive a bad stench arising from them 2–Yes. 15,420. Do you know what shape the sewers or the drains are, square or circular *—The main drain is egg-shaped. I mean the new one. 15,421. When was it made 2–It was made a few years before I came here, which was in 1856. I think it must have been in 1853 or 1854. 15,422. Of what shape are the tributary drains 2– They are generally circular, I think. 15,423. Would you not infer that there must be something foul in the drains that causes the smell to come up through these grates ?—The smell coming from the grates I would account for in two ways. In the first place, there is not a sufficient quantity of water to flush them out properly, and in the next place I think that they might be improved materially if a shaft was constructed to take away the foul air. 15,424. Do you think that the sewers are not pro- perly ventilated 2–Yes. 15,425. Are complaints ever made to you of bad smells getting into houses through waterclosets — Yes, frequently in summer time and fine dry weather. 15,426. And occupants are suffering annoyance inside their houses —Yes. 15,427. Have any complaints been made of nui- sance arising from the outlet tanks into which the sewage goes?–No. - 15,428. Whose duty is it to empty the ashpits 2– They are emptied by private individuals, the owners or occupiers. 15,429. You do not empty them on behalf of the borough, but you give the parties notice to do so if the privies get very foul ?–Yes. 15,430. Are the contents taken by farmers out into the country –Yes. 15,431. Are there many slaughter-houses in the town 2–I believe about half a score. 15,432. Have you much trouble with them?—Very little. 15.433. Are they drained into thesame sewer?—Yes. 15,434. I suppose the washings from the slaughter- houses, the garbage, and blood are all carried away ? —Yes. 15,435. And pass down to the outlet P-Yes. 15,436. If such matter as that were to accumulate in the drains in hot weather I suppose it would help to produce a bad smell?—Yes. 15,437. During last summer did you use any disin- fectant of any kind?—Yes. 15,438. Was that provided by the corporation ?— Yes. 15,439. What disinfectant did you use 2–-Carbolic acid and chloride of lime. 15,440. Was there any cholera in the town during last summer ?—I believe not a single case within the borough. 15,441. Has there been any fever of any kind – Yes, a sort of low fever has been rather prevalent amongst cottagers. 15,442. Has there been any fever near any of those places where you say bad smells have been complained of?—Not particularly. 15,443. Where does fever usually occur –I have known it to occur in very well ventilated houses and in healthy neighbourhoods. It has not been confined to the worst-drained districts. 15,444. Does much fever occur in the common lodging-houses?—Not very much. 15,445. Did you know those lodging-houses before they were registered 2–Yes, some of them. 15,446. They were not under your supervision then –No. 15,447. How long have you been in the police 2– 18 years. 15,448. Did your duties ever take you into those common lodging-houses 18 years ago?—Yes. 15,449. What condition were they in then 2–1 was not here at that time; I was in the Cheshire county constabulary before I came here, but I consider that the lodging-houses are very much better now in con- sequence of the daily visit that I cause to be made to them. 15,450. In order to see that the tenants comply with the regulations which are pasted up in each room 2–Yes. 15,451. Do the lodgers ever draw your attention to the regulations, and point out to you that they have not been properly carried out —Yes, in one or two instances, but not as a general thing. 15,452. Have they ever complained of the bedding being dirty —No. The last complaint that I heard was of a male and female sleeping in one room. It is contrary to the provisions of the byelaws, and the parties were summoned before the magistrates for allowing it. - 15,453. By whom was that complaint made?—By a fellow-lodger. 15,454. Male or female 2–A male. 15,455. (Professor Way.) Do you find that carbolic acid is a good disinfectant 2–I like the lime better. 15,456. Does the effect of carbolic acid soon pass off?–No, not very soon. 15,457. What is your objection to it?–It has been tried here by the medical inspector, and he said that he thought lime was better ; I thought so too. 15,458. Is it used in the urinals 2–Yes, and in the ashpits and privies; it is also put down the grates. 15,459. Is it put down through the gratings – Tartly so. 15,460. Is it also put down into the gully holes 2 —Yes. 15,461. (Mr. Harrison.) Where does the canal lead into which the sewage is discharged 2–It is what is called the Aire and Calder canal, and it leads to Goole from here; it is between Goole and Leeds. 15,462. Does it go down to Knottingley –Yes. 15,463. Does it pass through the town of Knotting- ley –Yes. 15,464. The canal which passes through the town of Knottingley receives the overflow of the sewage of Pontefract 2–Yes. 15,465. It does not reach the Ouse till it discharges at Goole 2–I think it is connected in some way with the river. 15,466. Would it not foul the water more or less all the way from this to Goole 2–Yes, I think so. 15,467. Have any complaints been made at Knot- tingley of the condition of the canal in consequence of the sewage of Pontefract being turned into it 2–I never heard of any. The witness withdrew. Mr. Joseph HoRN (Castleford) examined. 15,468. (Chairman.) Are you the proprietor of cer- tain mills in the town 2–Yes. 15,469. What business do you carry on ?–Flint grinding, and the manufacture of whiting. 15,470. Where are the works situated ?–One at Oulton and the other at Castleford. 15,471. What power do you use ?–It is water power at Oulton and steam at Castleford. PONTEFRACT. Mr. E. Fernside. 30 Nov. 1866. --- Mr. J. Horn. --- 3 L 4 456 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. PONTEFIRACT. Mr J. Horn. 30 Nov. 1866. 15,472. What amount of water power do you use * —It is called a 20-horse water-wheel. 15,473. Where does the water come from ?–From the river Aire; the mill is on its banks. 15,474. Do you get the water by a side cut —No, from the river itself; we have a goit. 15,475. Is there a weir across the river at that point –Yes. I 5,476. What fall is there to it —About 7 feet 6. 15,477. Of what width is your wheel-race 2–8 feet 4 inches I believe, or 8 feet. 15,478. The wheel, I suppose, is ground shot — About half way up, nearer the centre than the bottom ; I think it is 18 feet, the power is obtained underneath. 15,479. How long have you worked that wheel there 2–I went there it will be 30 years ago in April next ; we began to work the wheel then. I have been away since then. 15,480. Is the power as good now as when you first began to work it —I do not know that there is any difference in it. 15,481. Does your tail water get away as readily as it did —Yes, much the same. 15,482. Then the river has not altered in its cha- racter so as to injure your power —I think not. 15,483. Is the river navigable now —No ; now they have the canal. The river used to be navigable above 30 years ago, but they cut the canal at the same time, I believe, as the Goole canal. 15,484. Is the river bed raised above you or below you ?—Yes, they have to dredge sometimes for us, so that we can get a boat down to the mill. 15,485. The river is kept in order by dredgers at its proper depth?—Yes, only just at that point, about 100 yards from the lock down to the mill. 15,486. Is the river polluted by manufacturing refuse thrown in above you ?—Yes. 15,487. By what is it polluted —The greatest cause of the pollution is the Leeds sewage. 15,488. The sewage of Leeds comes down to you ? —Yes, and since that has been put in we cannot get any fish ; before that we could get quantities. 15,489. The sewage has killed the fish –I suppose SO, 15,490. Do you know when the Leeds outfall sewer was completed 2–I do not know exactly. I left the Fleet mills about 18 years since, and the sewer was not in then, but when I went back again seven years since it was in. 15,491. Do you think the river is more polluted now than it was when you first knew it —Yes, a great deal; I used to bathe in it formerly, sometimes twice a day; we could drink the water then, but I should not like to drink it now. 15,492. Where is the other mill situated 2–At Castleford. 15,493. Is that a steam mill 2–Yes. 15,494. Is that mill near to the river ?—It is close to the river side. 15,495. Why do you use steam power there — Because we have no fall. 15,496. What amount of coal do you use there per annum ?–40 or 50 tons a week. 15,497. What do you do with the ashes 2–We put them into a field; we used to put them on the bank- side to fill up. 15,498. Did you ever put them into the river ?— They swam into the river in flood time. 15,499. You placed them very convenient for the flood to reach them —Yes. 15,500. Did any person object to that at any time 2 —The Aire and Calder Company mentioned it once or twice to me. 15,501. To your knowledge do any persons put ashes into the river in your district 2—I do not know that they do; they wash in, I believe, sometimes; but not to make a practice of it. 15,502. Does the sewage from waterclosets or privies go into the river ?—At Castleford the sewage runs in. 15,503. Direct?—I believe so. Formerly we had two tanks, but they are done away with now. 15,504. What is the population of Castleford 2– About 4,000 now ; I am not quite sure about it. 15,505. How long has the manufacture at Castle- ford Mill been carried on ?—The mill was built in 1849. 15,506. What number of men do you employ there 2 —10 or 11 ; it is not a very large mill. 15,507. Does the ground flint go into the Potteries 2 —Yes, for common ware; it is at Castleford and Ferrybridge where it is used, not for glass. 15,508. They use flint dust for bedding the best China in before it goes into the fire —I believe they do. 15,509. Where does the whiting which you manu- facture go?—A good deal of it goes to Manchester, to Leeds, and Halifax. - 15,510. Is it calcined limestone —No, it is ground, washed, and then dried. 15,511. (Professor Way.) How do you separate the flint after grinding it; do you put it in water 2– First of all we wash it after grinding it, then it goes into a cistern to settle, and then we let the water off. 15,512. How do you dry it?—We put it on to a kiln to dry, but we dry very little; it is generally sent out in tubs. 15,513, And the same with the whiting —No, that is all sent out dry. 15,514. Did you ever hear of a plan that is used in the Potteries for separating the clay from the water 2 —Yes, and they use that at Castleford. 15,515. Where is it used ?–At Hartley and Company’s. 15,516. Does it answer —I believe that it does to a certain extent, but I am not sure about the name. 15,517. Have you ever seen it used ?–Yes. 15,518. The water is forced in from the clay with a pump, is it not *—Yes. 15,519. Do not you think that the machine would be useful in making your whiting —We could not make the whiting dry enough ; we can do it by settling ; we pump it on to the kiln to dry, and that is all one trouble of course. 15,520. (Mr. Harrison.) How are you supplied with water at the mill –From the river. 15,521. Is the mill where you use water power on the Aire 2–Yes, the water comes from the river; all the water that we use is from the river. 15,522. Do you use the same water also for domestic purposes 2–No, we have a well for that. 15,523. Do you get good water from that well ?— —Yes, it is good water, but hard; we cannot wash with it. 15,524. What depth is that well ?—I should think about three or four yards; it is filtered out of the sand. 15,525. Are there many persons residing on the banks of the Aire near to the mill, between Leeds and the junction of the Aire with the Calder 2–No, Hunslet is the principal place below Leeds; then there is the Thorpe Hall colliery, and there are, I believe, 50 or 60 houses close to the river side there. Near to the Fleet mill we have 12 or 14. 15,526. Are they generally supplied with water for domestic purposes as you are –I do not know how they get water at Thorpe Hall, but many persons get it from our pumps at Fleet mills. There are two wells, but ours is considered the best; it is inside the house. 15,527. Is the condition of the river at your mill sometimes very disagreeable?—Yes, it is very bad indeed in dry, hot weather. It is so bad that it glazes the outside of the doors, and inside the mill, and what ought to be white is perfectly black coloured. 15,528. Does it affect the health of the people there 2–1 cannot say, but I know that in the morning I do not like it. 15,529. (Chairman.) Has it any effect upon white aint 2–Yes, it blackens it. 15,530. (Professor Way.) I suppose you cannot use the water of the river for grinding the whiting 2 —The water with which we grind the whiting we use over again often. When it is very bad it makes the whiting rather dark coloured. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 457 15,531. You do use it then in the first instance 2– Yes. 15,532. Then the dark particles in the water are apt to mix with the whiting?—Yes, and they settle with the whiting. 15,533. In grinding the whiting you run off the finer parts and let the liquid settle —We have edge stones, and the liquid keeps running out when it gets to a certain height. 15,534. Does the material eventually all get fine?— No, we have a certain part that we grind by another process, not washing. 15,535. You ultimately grind it all down, do you not 2–Yes. 15,536. There is no residue from it?—Only what falls on the floor. 15,537. Where does the material come from 2– From a place near Hull. 15,538. Is it chalk 2–Yes, it is hard chalk. 15,539. Are flints found in the same bed 2–No, not those that we use; we use black flints for pottery. Flint out of the same bed would be too coarse. 15,540. Is it a very expensive process to grind flints —Yes, it requires very strong machinery, and accidents often happen. 15,541. Are the flints ever calcined before they are ground 2–Yes. 15,542. And thrown into water P-No, it would not suit to do that; they would want to be thrown in red hot ; if we threw water over we should spoil the kiln. 15,543. The flints would not be red hot when got out of the kiln P-No. 15,544. You have spoken of the pollution of the river by the Leeds sewage, and that that has occurred within the last 20 years ?—Yes. 15,545. Has the number of manufactories on the river increased in the last 20 years?—Yes, I should think there are three or four more on the river than there were 20 years ago. 15,546. But I mean at Leeds 2—I think there were as many on the river side before, but manufactories have got up the becks. 15,547. Do you think that any part of the increased pollution is owing to the dyeing processes which have been carried on in the last 20 years —I cannot say. Of course we had the pollution from the dye-houses when I went there first to a great extent, but it is a great deal worse now than it was before the Leeds sewage went into the river. 15,548. You cannot say exactly what causes have contributed to make the river worse —No ; but one thing I can say, which is, that when we are short of soft water for washing purposes we are obliged to take water out of the canal in preference to the river ; the water is a great deal clearer in the canal than in the river, for the Leeds sewage comes in below the point where the canal is fed. That strengthens my opinion about the Leeds sewage. 15,549. I suppose the objectionable materials in the canal fall to the bottom to a great extent, whereas when in the river which is in motion they would not fall in the same way ?—I cannot say, but a great deal does fall into the river ; we have a lock close to us, and in a flood time, as just now, the river is filled up for above a foot outside the lock, and the stuff will not go away of itself ; it must be pushed away by boats, or flooded away from the lock. 15,550. (Chairman.) Do you break your flints by hand 2–No, they are broken by stampers. 15,551. Have you seen the new machine which has been invented for stone breaking –No, but I have heard of it. 15,552. (Professor Way.) Do you use only stampers, or do you use an edge runner afterwards 2—No, we only use stampers; we have a grate that the flint particles go through, and when that is done we can grind it. 15,553. You do grind it eventually —Yes, but we stamp it first. The jaws of the new machine would not make it much finer. Our flint must be almost as fine as cream. 15,554. Do you grind it in water 2—Yes. 15,555. (Chairman.) Does the pan revolve or the stones?—For flint grinding we have the Derbyshire chert, and we push the chert forward with arms and pave the bottom, and then we have runners at the top and push forward the arms; our stones for making whiting run round ; the bottom is a fixture. 15,556. Did you ever see Dr. Clarke's process for softening hard water by throwing lime into it?—No, but we make the water that we use softer by washing the whiting in it. 15,557. The whiting combines with the lime in the water and takes it up if there was any in before?— Yes. 15,558. And the water when it goes away is softer than it was before ?—Yes. 15,552. (Professor Way.) If you were in a chalk district where the water was hard you might be able to soften the water and get the whiting in proper con- dition; here it is comparatively soft water 2–Yes. 15,560. (Chairman.) How much whiting do you make in a day ?—Sometimes six tons. There is one nuisance that I think I ought to mention which comes from a brewery about about a mile above us. 15,561. What is the name of that brewery —Oul- ton brewery. - 15,562. How long has it been established 2 — I should think about 30 years. 15,563. Is the nuisance you speak of worse now than it was before ?–Yes; the volumes of water from the washing of the barrels and the malt and those things is three or four times as big as it used to be ; it is almost too much to bear as one is walking by the side of the drain ; that refuse goes into the river Aire below our mill at Fleet, but above Castleford. 15,564. How does it happen to be an annoyance to you ?–There is a foot road and a cart road which go past the drain, and we have to pass it nearly every day; I mention this because it pollutes the river. 15,565. The refuse is simply, I suppose, the washing of the barrels and the floors and the waste refuse that comes away —Yes. 15,566. Do they send waste hops down or waste grains with it —I do not know, but they lead waste hops away to a field which cause a very bad smell. 15,567. Waste hops which are thrown out and then get old and putrid are very offensive?—They are. I know that they smell very badly. 15,568. (Professor Way.) I suppose a sour kind of smell is brought down the river from the brewery 2– No, but it is very bad; it is not quite so nauseous as the smell from the river, but it is rather worse to bear for the nose ; the river smell is more sickening than that from the brewery drain. 15,569. (Chairman.) And you say that refuse from the brewery is one of the causes of pollution at present 2 —Yes; I should say that it makes the river worse for the Castleford people. 15,570. Where do the Castleford people get their water –At first when I was there a great many of them got it out of the river, and many of them made tea of the river water then, but they cannot do so now I think. We have had several talks about a water supply for Castleford, but they have never got it yet; it is much wanted, The witness withdrew. Mr. HENRY John CoIEMAN (Pontefract) examined. 15,571. (Chairman.) Are you town clerk of Ponte- fract 2–Yes. 15,572. In whose reign was your first charter granted 2–In the reign of Richard the 3rd. 15,573. You have many charters I believe —Yes. 17159.-2, 15,574. Does the corporation hold any corporate property —Yes. 15,575. Of what does it consist P – The market- hall and the town-hall. 15,576. Did the corporation acquire the market 3 M PONTEFRACT. Mr. J. Horn. 30 Nov. 1866. Mr. H. J. Coleman. 458 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. PONTEFRACT, Mr. H. J. Coleman, 30 Nov. 1866. - tolls by purchase?—No ; they have belonged to them from time immemorial; they were first granted by charter. 15,577. Is the corporation lord of the manor as to manorial rights of Pontefract 2–Yes; but the cor- poration has not exercised any such rights. 15,578. For instance, in taking market tolls — Yes, they have been granted by charter. 15,579. That is a sort of manorial right 2–Yes. 15,580. In other places market tolls are usually paid to the lord of the manor –Yes. 15,581. Have you the privilege of regulating markets and fairs 2–Yes, at least the mayor, who is clerk of the market, has all those privileges. 15,582. Has the market-hall been built out of any surplus fund that you have had, or have you borrowed money for that purpose?—We sold land and raised money in that way. We borrowed money as well. 15,583. Is the income sufficient to pay the current expenses and the interest of the money, and to leave a surplus 2–Yes. 15,584. Does the corporation possess any other corporate property?—No. 15,585. Do you make the mayor an annual allow- ance 2–No. 15,586. Of what number of members does the cor- poration consist?–16, and the mayor ; four aldermen and 12 common councilmen. 15,587. Of course you are under the Municipal Corporations Act 2–Yes. 15,588. Your corporation was reformed in 1837?— Yes. 15,589. Did that leave you with the same number of members —No, it increased the number, originally there were 13. 15,590. Of what area does the municipal borough consist in acres 2–I cannot say. 15,591. Are the boundaries now what they were before the Municipal Reform Act was passed ?–No, they were regulated by that Act. 15,592. Is the municipal area co-extensive with the parliamentary area —No. 15,593. What is the difference 2–It is very great. 15,594. Your parliamentary borough, I suppose, is much larger ?—Yes, it takes in all the township of Knottingley. 15,595. Were the limits of the parliamentary borough settled by the Municipal Reform Act in 1832?–No : the boundaries were settled when the Parliamentary Reform Act was carried out. 15,596. Was the borough boundary settled at that time 2–Yes. 15,597. Did Pontefract send two members to Par- liament before the Reform Act was passed ?–Yes. 15,598. It retained its members, and had its area extended to increase the number of voters ?–Yes. 15,599. Have you anything to do with the improve- ment commissioners ?—No, I am not their clerk. 15,600. What other property does the corporation possess —I have mentioned the town-hall. 15,601. Do they own any land now —No, we sold the land for the purpose of the market. 15,602. Then you have no source of corporate in- come other than what comes from the rents of the market 2—There is the borough rate. 15,603. Is that levied by the commissioners or through them —No, the rating is done through the corporate body. 15,604. Do you think it is advisable to retain two separate systems of government in one small borough 2 -—I hardly know how to answer that question; there are so many different opinions about it from so many clever men. I do not like to answer it. 15,605. The recent practice has been to consolidate local government under a corporation where it exists 2 —Yes, and I should think very properly so too in many CaSeS. 15,606. If your corporation chose to adopt the Local Government Act they might, by an order in council, get the commission extinguished?—But that would be very much opposed. 15,607. Up to last session there were 15 local governing bodies in the municipal area of Leeds, but they went to Parliament for a bill, and they are now all consolidated under the corporation ?—So I understand. 15,608. You have nothing to do as a corporation with the sewerage of the borough?–No. 15,609. Nor with street cleansing –No. 15,610. Are the police under your authority and control?—Yes, they are under us, under the watch committee. - 15,611. Is the town lighted with gas —Yes. 15,612. By a private company ?–Yes. 15,613. Is the town supplied with water by the commissioners ?—Yes. 15,614. The corporation has nothing to do with either gas or water ?–No. 15,615. Has the gas company to give you notice when they want to break up any streets —No, the notice would be given to the street commissioners. 15,616. Do you, as a corporate body, keep a sur- veyor 2–No, we have nothing to survey. 15,617. There are the mayor, four aldermen, and 12 common councilmen, a recorder, and yourself as town clerk —Yes; but there is a separate Court of Quarter Sessions. 15,618. Do they meet monthly 2–Yes, at least they did, and more often than that. 15,619. Have you anything to do with sanitary matters ?–No. 15,620. Nor with river pollutions?—No. 15,621. (Professor Way.) Is the inspector of nuisances under your control?—Yes, he is. 15,622. Supposing he reports a nuisance connected with the water supply, in what way do you deal with that matter?—I do not know, but if there was a deficiency he might report the matter to the street CommlSSLOners. 15,623. Suppose he found that waterclosets had not been sufficiently cleansed?—That he would lay before the street commissioners; they have the sole control over the water. 15,624. Is he an officer of theirs as well as of the corporation —No ; he would act under the sanitary committee, and report the case to that committee : they would take cognizance of that. 15,625. Has such a complaint to go through your hands 2—It would come before the magistrates if the parties did not obey the sanitary committee. 15,626. (Mr. Harrison.) The sanitary committee I suppose is in connexion with the corporation ?— Yes. 15,627. If they interfered they would complain to the commissioners?—I suppose they would do so. 15,628. (Professor Way.) In such a case as that the inspector would have to report to a body to which he is in no way subordinate 2–He is partly, because the sanitary committee is formed out of the corporate body. 15,629. (Chairman.) May the same gentleman be a member of the commission and a member of the corporation at one and the same time 2–Yes, that is SO. 15,630. Then the mayor may be mayor of the borough and chairman of the commissioners if so elected 2–Yes, and it often happens; I believe that the present mayor is one of the commissioners. 15,631. I assume that the commissioners take their seats by qualification ?—Yes. 15,632. They qualify as ratepayers and owners of property —Yes. 15,633. Is there a double qualification ?–No ; there is a certain number of persons who are eligible, those who are most highly rated to the poor. The witness withdrew. RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 459 Mr. THOMAs WoRDsworth (Pontefract) examined. 15,634. (Chairman.) Are you one of the street commissioners ?—Yes. 15,635. How many members constitute that com- mission ?–Thirty-four for Pontefract and four for Tanshelf; they all manage the park, but the streets are under the control of the Thirty-four Pontefract commissioners. 15,636. Do they act under a private Act of Parlia- ment 2–Yes. 15,637. What is the date of your last Act 2–It was about 80 or 100 years ago. 15,638. Is the sewerage of the borough under your charge 2–Yes. 15,639. And the paving 2–Yes. 15,640. And the cleansing 2–Yes. 15,641. Do you exercise supervision over the lighting 2—No ; except that we pay for the lighting, and we contract for the gas and require the parties to fulfil their contract. 15,642. That is to say you enter into contracts with the gas company ?–Yes, for lighting the streets. 15,643. Do you act with regard to the rating in con- junction with the corporation ?–No, independently. 15,644. Are you a member of the corporation as well ?—No. 15,645. Is there a surveyor employed under you ? —No. 15,646. Have you any idea what money you expend in rates for town purposes 2–About 900l. a year. 15,647. If you have no surveyor, how do you manage with regard to paving and cleansing —The executive, who are appointed at the first annual meet- ing, manage that ; we manage it amongst ourselves as COImmlSS10116I’S. 15,648. Do you elect the improvement committee? —There are three whom we call the “executive,” and who are elected every year. 15,649. I suppose your accounts are properly audited 2–Yes. 15,650. Have they to be laid before an annual meeting of the commissioners ?–Yes. 15,651. Not before any outside body ?–No. 15,652. Have you to account to any persons — No. 15,653. Not to the corporation ?–No. 15,654. Only to yourselves –Yes. 15,655. Are you elected by the ratepayers ?–A number of those most highly rated, having freehold property, become commissioners. 15,656. That is if they choose to qualify 2–They always do. I never knew an exception. 15,657. If they do not choose to qualify there is no compulsion ?—I believe not. 15,658. Would their names be put upon the list of commissioners as the largest ratepayers, whether they chose to act or not –Yes; the clerk makes out a list annually, and invariably the new members appear and take the oath which the Act requires. 15,659. They are summoned when they are put on the list, and they usually attend ?–Yes. 15,660. Has any discussion taken place as to the propriety of vesting larger powers in the corporation ? —Yes, about two years ago, and the great majority of the commissioners refused to relinquish their claim to the powers they exercised. 15,661. Have any complaints been made to you, as the board of commissioners, with regard to the outlet sewer that has been spoken of, and as to the tanks – No. 15,662. You have a public park, have you not?— Yes. 15,663. Of how many acres does that consist – About 360. - 15,664. Is that part of some common that existed formerly 2–Yes. 15,665. How long has it been made into a park 2– I think 150 or 200 years. 15,666. Is the right to the soil vested in the com- missioners; is it their freehold absolutely 2–No. I cannot give the legal term, but I think it was a gift to the town for a certain purpose from the Duchy of Lancaster in some former period. 15,667. Could you build upon it, or lease it for building purposes —No, I believe not. Y 15,668. You can only use it for park purposes?— e.S. 15,669. Are cattle grazed upon it 2–Yes. 15,670. Who has that right —Every inhabitant, after three years residence, has the privilege of putting on one cow or one horse; for a cow 12s, are paid, and for a horse a guinea. 15,671. They have to pay that?—Yes. 15,672. Are there many applicants for that privi- lege –Yes, there are about 280 every year. 15,673. Can you accommodate that number upon that acreage —Yes. 15,674. The funds collected, I presume, go to main- tain the park —Yes, for manure and herdsmen, and to make little improvements. 15,675. Is there a surplus from that source that can be applied for any other purposes —No; if there is any surplus it is spent in manure. 15,676. For the land 2–Yes. 15,677. Is any portion of it ploughed up 2–No, it is all grass land. 15,678. Is the park laid out ornamentally —There has been a little done in the past few years, and I think there will be more done. 15,679, Who is the lord of the manor here?—The Earl of Harewood. 15,680. Could you as commissioners break the sur- face for the purpose of getting gravel or clay, or rock, or if there was coal underneath could you work it —The Act is very clear as to what the duties of the commissioners are, and I think we could not. 15,681. In the event of your wishing to carry out any system of sewers should you employ a surveyor or architect to devise and lay out the works 2–Yes. 15,682. To see that they were properly executed —Some one would be appointed if it was a large undertaking, but if it was only a trifling thing costing 20l. or 30l., or 50l., I think not. 15,683. Did you hear the inspector of nuisances state that he thought the sewers were not properly ventilated P−Yes. 15,684. Have you as commissioners power to remedy that state of things —Yes. 15,685. Would it be worth your while, do you think, to bring that before the Commission, quoting the opinion of the inspector of nuisances, which I can very strongly confirm, that if there is no ventilation, venti- lation should be made 2–I believe that our great defect is want of water. 15,686. If you have foul gas in the sewers, which escapes through the gratings, you do not make it less by confining it, but you intensify it and make it more deadly, whereas, if proper openings were made to allow the gas to escape, less mischief would arise from it 2– There has been a talk amongst the commissioners about building a chimney in some part, but it has never been accomplished yet. The commissioners are anxious to do everything they can for the good of the town, and they always have been. 15,687. I may state that unventilated sewers are : simply dangerous abominations?—The complaints about the grates have been very trifling. I am aware that there have been some. 15,688. Any town that is sewered and drained, but in which the sewers are not ventilated, is in a worse condition than if it had all its refuse on the surface of the streets, and if bad smells escape through the gratings and gully-holes it is a certain proof that the sewers are not fully ventilated —I am aware that some complaints have been made. 15,689. (Mr. Harrison.) At the present time you turn the sewage into the canal, and that canal passes through Knottingley?—Yes. 15,690. And consequently the canal must be more or less a nuisance to that place —Yes. 15,691. Has the attention of the commissioners PONTEFRACT. Mr. T. "Wordsworth. 30 Nov. 1866. 3 M 2 460 RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, PONTEFRACT. Mr. T. Wordsworth. 30 Nov. 1866. W. Wood, Esq. been directed to the advisability of carrying the sewage on to land instead of into the canal?—I believe that the water is tolerably clear after it leaves the tank ; the refuse remains in the place, which is cleaned out occasionally when required. 15,692. Is there any land in the neighbourhood suitable for irrigation ?—I think there might be. 15,693. Do you think the sewage might be applied to land without difficulty –I think so. 15,694. Where do you get your water supply – From a well in Tanshell. 15,695. Do you pump it 2–Yes. 15,696. What volume of water do you pump daily? —About 50,000 gallons. 15,697. And that is distributed among a population of about 5,000?–Yes, including Tanshelf, about 6,000. Then we have another source ; perhaps from 10,000 to 15,000 gallons run into the town from the old source, from a well at the opposite side of the hill. 15,698. Do you find that daily supply sufficient for domestic purposes and for cleansing waterclosets and sewers as well?—It is not quite sufficient. 15,699. What steps, if any, are the commissioners taking to improve the water supply –They are taking none at present. Formerly the town was supplied with other water, and there were many private wells containing pretty good water too, but the town was supplied from that source alone. About 14 years ago a well was sunk and works erected; it is 13 yards deep, but the rock is about 16 yards high. 15,700. What is the quality of the water?—I do not know, chemically speaking; the water is from the limestone. 15,701. It is hard water –It is hardish water. 15,702. Whether you discharge the sewage into the canal or into the river is not the act the same, and ought not any measure which the Legislature may pass to prevent pollution by sewage be made to apply not only to towns casting their sewage into running streams but to towns casting their sewage into any channels containing water 2–Yes. 15,703. (Chairman.) Do you know that the water which flows from the sewage in the tanks, and which flows away bright in appearance, has still all the elements of sewage in it *—No doubt it has. 15,703a. And that in no respect has it been altered in its character, except that it has parted with some solid ingredients —Yes, that I can believe. The witness withdrew. WILLIAM Wood, Esq. (Monkhill House, near Pontefract), examined. 15,704. (Chairman.) Are you resident near Ponte- fract 2–I live just outside the municipal boundary : practically I am in Pontefract and surrounded by that township. I live near the station; Monkhill is a small township of four or five acres in the county of York, but surrounded by the township of Ponte- fract. 15,705. You are, I believe, acting as a county magistrate in this part of the riding —I am, and am chairman of petty sessions at Pontefract. 15,706. At one time you were member for Ponte- fract?–Yes, in the Parliament elected in 1857. 15,707. Do you know anything of the main sewer- age of Pontefract –Yes, I am a native of Pontefract, and I know it pretty well; there is a main sewer only on one side of the town; the other side of the town, the north side, is not sewered at all, excepting by a branch sewer which is emptied into a stream on the north side of the town. 15,708. And the sewage pollutes that stream — Yes, all the sewage on that, the north side of the town, is deposited in the stream where it runs over a very flat swampy district which was formerly and is now known as the mill-dam. The water is dammed up there, and in the summer time it is excessively offensive; in my opinion the state of the stream is highly dangerous; there is a most decided stench arising from it, and there are very large deposits of sewage. 15,709. Has there been any attempt made to utilize any portion of it?—Until a few years ago they had for the sewage on the north side a small receiving tank in a garden with no masonry or brickwork, and in that the sewage was caught, and some liquid over- flow ran out ; but two years ago this depositing tank was one away with, and the whole of the sewage was taken down to a running stream, which a few years ago was a clear stream. It runs through some ground of mine, a small park in front of my house, where the water was perfectly clear a few years ago, and last year I received notice from the Mayor of Pontefract, as chairman of the sanitary committee, to clean out this running stream. He called it an offen- sive drain, but it had become so chiefly by the act of the local authorities, the street commissioners. 15,710. Then they first committed an injury to the stream, and then they added insult to it by asking you to clean the drain out 2–Yes. I wrote to the mayor and stated that one portion of the governing body of Pontefract had committed a great offence to- wards me, and a great nuisance, and then another portion of the governing body called upon me to remedy it. I requested the Mayor to put a stop to this, but I have received no reply to my letter. I called upon him to stop this matter as chairman of the sanitary committee. I believe that the sanitary committee have a right to bring the street commis- sioners before the magistrates, who have power to deal with them. 15,711. This is a small stream, is it not, arising from springs chiefly —Yes, partly from springs in that neighbourhood, and there is a stream also from Tanshelf valley. Then the Lancashire and York- shire Railway Company made a cutting between Pon- tefract and Wakefield, and much spring water comes down from that ; it is a very fine, nice stream of water, but, as I have said, it has been ruined chiefly by the street commissioners of Pontefract who have charge of the sewerage. 15,712. If they would do their duty, and properly sewer Pontefract, and deal with the sewage in a sen- sible manner, that stream might be restored to its original purity?—Yes; it is of itself very pure water. 15,713. If they would do as has been done in other places, in cases which I could cite, that which is now a polluted stream by their own act would be restored to the state in which it was at first, a pure pellucid stream —Yes; it would not be six hours before it was a pure stream, if the sewage was kept out. There are no sewerage works on the north side except the branch sewer which is taken directly into the running water of the stream by the authorities of the town. 15,714. Is there a considerable fall in this stream as it enters your property —Yes, there is a very good fall just before it enters my property, it falls from the bridge ; there was formerly a small mill there; it is called the mill-dam, but the great deposit is just above my property, which I consider to be highly dangerous, because it covers a large flat, and gives off deleterious exhalations. 15,715. Is your property purely ornamental?— Entirely so ; there is a small grass park in front of my house. 15,716. It is perhaps not a place where you would like any experiment to be tried in applying sewage to grassland –The levels would permit of it, but I cannot say I should like it in front of my house; part of it is immediately in front of my house. 15,717. Although the application of the sewage might produce very heavy crops of rye grass, yet you apprehend that it would be a nuisance to you?—I fear so, and besides that part of the place is close to the houses of the poorer part of the population who live in the old part of the town. There have been many cases of fever there, which I believe have been pro- duced by this deposit of sewage, RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 461 15,718. For what distance does the stream traverse your ground 2–It goes across my grounds for about S00 feet. 15,719. Then you would not, I suppose, approve of a conduit to take away the sewage past you out of the brook, as it would at the same time take a certain amount of the brook water, and perhaps dry the brook up —I should not like such a conduit. 15,720. You want to have the brook in its original purity ?—Yes; I keep cattle on the land, and I do not know how they are to drink out of the offensive drain, as it has been termed ; before the pollution it was good water. 15,721. When did the authorities of the town first begin to make this drain so offensive –Some small part of the liquid sewage has been, I believe, for a long time turned into the stream, but, as I have stated, up to about two years ago they had a depositing tank in a garden, and the sewage was got out for manure ; the overflow then ran down to the water, but the result was not nearly so bad as now ; two years ago they did away with the depositing tank and made a culvert, and that passed the sewage directly into the stream. 15,722. I suppose you are aware that you have a remedy against the commissioners ?–Yes; but I do not wish to act unneighbourly. I was in hopes that the evil would be remedied, and I wrote to the mayor to that effect, but I fear they will not do it unless they are compelled. 15,723. If in consequence of the report made by this Commission Parliament should think fit to pass any measure for a general conservancy of the streams of the country you would then be protected under a general law, and you would prefer that to being com- pelled to take proceedings against your own towns- men —Yes, I should very much prefer it. In the other case I should have to prosecute the street com- missioners collectively and individually, as what I have complained of is not only done by them as a body, but it is also done by individual members of the body; the example being set, some of them turn the contents of their own private drains into the stream ; they have recently begun to do that. 15,724. You would have to engage in a personal contest with your neighbours, and to fight a body who would put their hands into the public pocket for money to meet the expenses, while you would have to meet them out of your own pocket –Yes. 15,725. You have made this statement not with the view of casting personal censure upon any per- sons, but to show that a public evil exists, by which private damage has been inflicted upon you ?–Yes, very great injury. 15,726. Although the corporation are not the offen- ders, yet they turn round upon you and ask you to remedy the mischief which the commissioners have done to you ?—Yes. I have an order here, which is signed by the mayor, calling upon me to clean out the stream which has been fouled by what others have deposited in it, and which passes through my grounds. 15,727. Is the land on both sides of this stream your own 2–Partly so; in the other part the stream is the boundary of my property. 15,728. Is the bed of the stream claimed jointly by the owner of the adjoining property —I have claimed it, and I have occasionally cleansed the stream out. I bought it from the Earl of Harewood. 15,729. Is there a fence on the opposite side to you ? —Yes; but there is no fence on my side by the stream. 15,730. Do you claim a right to the soil in the stream 2–Yes, a right to the water and a right to the soil. I would suggest that in any provision that may be made by Parliament there should be a body con- stituted independent of the local authorities to enforce the removal of nuisances, for I am sure if it is left to them you will not get the work done. I may add that the sewage of the south side of the town is not deposited in the canal directly ; it is put into the stream a mile or a mile and a half from the canal, and then the stream flows down and joins the canal at Ferrybridge, and so the sewage deposits in the canal. 15,731. The sewage has passed through certain streams, and these ultimately find their way into the canal 2–Yes. I think that Mr. Wordsworth stated that below these tanks there is no offensive matter, but if you go to Knottingley and walk along the side of the turnpike road after the sewage has left the tanks you will find that there are very large deposits, and that the stream is very offensive indeed. 15,732. (Mr. Harrison.) Your evidence goes to show that in any Government measure it will not be merely large streams, such as the Aire and Calder, that must be dealt with but the tributaries, even such small ones as those which come to Pontefract 2–Yes; of course they are the source and origin of the main streams, and if you do not deal with the small streams, and there are a number of them, you will have an aggregate of great evils in the main streams. 15,733. In a town like Pontefract, situated not immediately on the banks of a river, but on small becks, where the sewage from the town is turned into these small becks, there is a considerably greater nuisance than would be the case if the sewage were immediately sent into the Aire, where a large volume of water was passing 2—I think the nuisance is very much greater, and there is no doubt that you must deal with the small streams as well as the large ones. 15,734. Have you considered at all what arrange- ments should be made for the management of rivers and keeping them in a pure state —I have read the report of the commissioners, and a question has arisen in my mind, and I confess it is rather a difficult one, as to the appointment of inspectors; for instance, under any arrangement that might be made I scarcely know to whom you could delegate the appointment. I have long acted as a magistrate in the West Riding, and I have observed that when there has been an appoint- ment to be made by the magistrates, and especially if there was a very good salary attached to it, it did not follow that the fittest man was appointed, but it was he who could raise the largest amount of county influence. 15,735. To whom would you delegate the power of appointing inspectors?—That is a difficult question to answer; partly, perhaps, to the county magistrates, and partly, perhaps, to the Government, but I would prefer the Government as a whole. 15,736. You think there should be government inspectors, similar to inspectors of prisons and fac- tories 2–Yes, I think it is absolutely necessary to have some power and authority independent of and above the local authorities. 15,737. Do you think it would answer to have in- spectors appointed by the local magistrates, and to impose on those inspectors the duty to examine and report and give information as to offenders ?–Ishould doubt it if the inspectors were appointed by the local magistrates, or any local authorities at all. I have no faith in local authorities for such purpose. I do not think that you would have the law regularly carried out unless the authority was exercised by some central organised body. 15,738. (Chairman.) The Secretary of State for the Home Department appoints the magistrates, does he not ?—The lord lieutenant of the county first recommends, and then the recommendation is ratified by the Lord Chancellor. I am speaking now of county magistrates. The recommendations for borough magistrates are I believe ratified by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, but the magistrates are appointed by the Lord Chancellor frequently from political party motives. 15,739. Are the county constabulary subsidized by the Government, or are they paid entirely out of the county rates?—They are paid entirely out of the county rates, excepting that a certain portion—I think a fourth in some cases—is allowed by the Govern- ment out of the consolidated fund. PONTEFRACT. W. Wood, Esq. 30 Nov. 1866. -- 3 M 3 462 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, PoNTEFRACT, W. Wood, Esq. 30 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. Turpin. - 15,740, Has any government official anything to do with the appointment or removal of the chief superintendent of police —No ; that is entirely in the hands of the county magistrates. The chief constable is appointed by the magistrates of the riding. 15,741. Would it be an advantage if the Govern- ment had the appointment of the chief constable — I do not think it would be a disadvantage. The county magistrates would not like it, but I think it would be no worse, perhaps better, for the public interests. 15,742. In the event of any legislation taking place to prevent pollution of rivers, and an elective repre- sentative body being constituted, with power to levy rates and find funds for carrying out necessary works, do you think it would be right that the Government should nominate a surveyor to see the law properly carried out?—I think so. 15,743. Do you think that would prevent local jobbery 2–Yes, if he had sufficient power ; I think that very likely there would otherwise be local jobbery. Moreover, in dealing with these matters, I see some- times that candidates for the office of councillor make great professions. They are all for economy, and are opposed to all plans that would involve expense. 15,744. You think that if any beneficial legislation is to be carried out to prevent pollution of rivers it will not do for the Government to hand over the whole machinery to persons resident in the district, and who might be supposed in some instances to be interested in the very pollutions which it was desired to prevent 2—I think that any such measure would not produce a good effect at all, and would not realize what you are aiming at, if the execution of it was left to the local authorities, and there are two reasons why ; first, the object of the local authorities would be to keep down the rates, and then individual members of boards are often interested in having outlets to the Stream. 15,745. Have you adopted here the machinery of the Highways Act 2–No, we have not. 15,746. I believe that has been very generally resisted throughout Yorkshire?—Yes, there has been much disinclination shown to it, but I think that is wearing out. I think that the Highways Act will be adopted eventually. - 15,747. A permissive Act of that kind, however good it may be, sometimes takes a long time before it can be brought thoroughly into use –Yes, before prejudices are worn away. 15,748. Is there not sometimes another reason that certain individual interests are necessarily affected 2– Yes, people are always opposed to any change. 15,749. There are some persons who hold office, and although they can tell you with a clear conscience that there is no pecuniary advantage connected with it, yet they are very loth to give it up 2–Yes, some of them are very much disinclined to give up office ; not per- haps with reference to any pecuniary advantage, but because of the power and the influence attached to it. The witness withdrew, Mr. JAMES TURPIN examined. 15,750. (Chairman.) Are you manager of the water- works –Yes. 15,751. To whom do they belong —To the com- missioners. 15,752. How long have they been established 2– I have been here for 13 years, and they were estab- lished some time before that ; I do not know how long. 15,753. How much water do you supply each day to the town 2–About 15,000 gallons from the works where we pump the water. 15,754. How do you pump it 2–With a steam- engine. 15,755. What power is it 2–Six-horse. 15,756. How many houses do you supply with water 2–I cannot tell. 15,757. Do you receive rent for the water supplied ? —The commissioners do. 15,758. You have nothing to do with that, but only with the pumping 2–Yes. 15,759. How many hours a day do you work the pump —About 10 hours, sometimes 10 and a half; it is not always alike, it depends upon the volume wanted. 15,760. Have you as much water as you want 2– Yes. 15,761. Is it good water —I think so. 15,762. Is it constantly on in the town 2–No ; sometimes in the night it is off; it is off at present. 15,763. Is the water lifted up to a tank 2–Yes. 15,764. What is the tank made of 2–Iron. 15,765. Where does it stand?—Upon a building. 15,766. Of what size is it?–18 feet by 16, I believe. 15,767. Who was the engineer 2–Mr. Hartley. 15,768. Are there fire-plugs in the town, and have you charge of them 2–Yes. 15,769. How many of them 2–About 20. 15,770. Have you ever used them to extinguish fires?—Yes. 15,771. Will the water rise to any height from the mains —Yes, in some parts it will, in others not very far. 15,772. How high will it rise with the best pres- sure ?–I think 14 yards, perhaps more. 15,773. Of what size are the street mains 2—The argest of them is 5 inches in diameter. 15,774. Have any of them been choked up by depo- sits 2—No. 15,775. How long have they been laid down 2– Since the works were erected, it may be 14 years. 15,776. Of what are the service pipes made that go into the houses, of lead or wrought-iron –Some are lead and some are iron. 15,767. Do you put them in, or is a plumber em- ployed –A plumber does the work. 15,778. Do parties apply to the waterworks office before the supply is put on ?—They have to apply to the person who collects the rates. 15,779. Does your water come from springs, from a well, or from a stream, or from all three ?—It comes out of a well, but there are springs which flow into this well from several streams. 15,780. Has the advisability of making the works larger been discussed 2–I have nothing to do with that. 15,781. Of what diameter is your pump 2–We have two pumps, and they are each of them 6 inches and 3-16ths in diameter. 15,782. What stroke 2–18 inches. 15,783. What number of strokes in a minute 2– About 28. 15,784. well. 15,785. Do they work well ?—Yes, they work very Have they never broken down 2–No. 15,786. Have you more than one engine 2–No. 15,787. How often is it necessary to clean out the boiler —Once a month. 15,788. Do you find much deposit in it 2–There is a little crust. 15,789. Do you ever blow out while you are working 2—No. 15,790. Have you a mud-cock at the bottom of the boiler —No. 15,791. Do you make smoke in firing 2–Yes; we have no smoke burner. 15,792. Cannot you fire without making smoke 2– Not very well at present as we are situated, I think. 15,793. Of what length is your boiler –12 feet. 15,794. What is its diameter 2–4 feet. 15,795. Has it internal flues?—No, they are under the bottom and round the sides. 15,796. What length is your furnace f-About 4 feet. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 463 15,797. Have you a single set of fire-bars or a double set 2—A single set, the whole length. 15,798. What length of dead plate is there inside the door?–10 inches or a foot. 15,799. If you fired on that dead plate you could get a fire up without making any smoke –I think I could not; there is steam as well. 15,800. Did you ever try —No. 15,801. (Professor Way.) I think you stated that you pumped 15,000 gallons a day –50,000 gallons. 15,802. Could you get more if you wanted it — Yes. 15,803. (Chairman.) By working the engine longer ? —Yes. 15,804. You do not pump the water all away?— Not quite at present. 15,805. Did you ever pump for the whole 24 hours ? —No. 15,806. If your pump broke down what should you do 2–We should get it mended as soon as we could. 15,807. What would the people in the town do for water —There would be no water, and they must go without it for a time. 15,808. (Mr. Harrison.) How were you off for water in 1864 and 1865 P-It was scarce then. 15,809. What volume daily could you then supply to the town 2–Between 30,000 and 40,000 gallons. 15,810. Instead of 50,000 —Yes. 15,811. Could you continue that through the whole season 2–Yes. 15,812. (Chairman.) Of what depth is your well? —13 yards. 15,813. To what depth are your pumps placed down the well; where is the working barrel 2–It is about eight yards from the top. 15,814. What length is the suction pipe 2–About 12 or 13 feet. 15,815. Have you a lift below your rams ?–No. 15,816. What is the height of the lift 2–About 16 yards above the surface. 15,817. What height has the water to be raised into the tank 2–16 yards. 15,818. Do you know what the lift is altogether ?— From the bore of the suction pipe it will be near 30 yards. 15,819. How often do you find it necessary to change your bottom clacks —Sometimes it will go past a year and sometimes not half a one. 15,820. Have you any difficulty in getting to them ; how do you draw them 2–1 only have to loose the door and take the nut out and put a new one on. 15,821. What is the kind of rock that your well is sunk in 2–Limestone. 15,822. (Professor Way.) What kind of water is that which you supply for washing purposes?—Very hard. 15,823. Does it produce much curd 2–I daresay it does. We never use it for washing. 15,824. Do they not use it for washing in the town 2 —I do not know. 15,825. What is the water pumped into the town for 2–They use soft water, I should think, when they can get it. 15,826. Do you make tea with it 2–Yes. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM GUNDILL (Pontefract) examined. 15,827. (Chairman.) Are you manager of the gas- works in this town 2–Yes. 15,828. How long have they been established 2–I think about 32 years. 15,829. What quantity of gas do you make now in a year 2–I think about 10,500,000 cubic feet. 15,830. Is that a greater quantity than you formerly made 2–Yes. 15,831. What quantity of coal do you consume annually P-About 1,200 tons. 15,832. For gas making and all your purposes 2– Yes. 15,833. Do you use iron or earthenware retorts 2– They are all brick retorts but two sets. 15,834. How many have you in use?—Seven brick retorts. - 15,835. How many iron ones have you in use – Two sets of three. 15,836. Then you have 13 altogether ?–Yes. The brick retort is 7 feet long and about 4 feet wide. 15,837. What is the price of coal here for making . gas —It averages about 10s. 6d. a ton ; it comes from the Barnsley district. 15,838. What is the price of gas —4s. 7d. per 1,000 cubic feet. 15,839. Is that the highest price –Yes. 15,840. What becomes of the gas tar and the ammo- niacal liquor 2–The ammoniacal liquor is sold to the proprietor of some chemical works, and the gas tar is sold for asphalting. 15,841. Do you find any difficulty in getting rid of it 2–No. 15,842. Have you any coke to dispose of 2–Yes. 15,843. How much per ton do you get for it 2–9s. a ton. 15,844. How much coke do you get out of a ton of coal 2–I think better than half a ton of coke. 15,845. Do you ever change the water in your tanks —No, and we have not done so for many years In OW. 15,846. What do you purify the gas with ?—With lime. - 15,847. Have you ever tried oxide of iron —No. 15,848. Do you purify with dry lime?—It is just moistened a little. 15,849. How much lime do you use in a week – I cannot answer that question. 15,850. Not quite a ton a week 2–No. 15,851. Have you any difficulty in getting rid of it? —No ; we sell it at 1s. 6d. a ton. 15,852. Do the farmers take it 2–Yes. 15,853. Are applications made to you sometimes by mothers for permission to take their children into the purifying house when suffering from whooping cough and croup 2–Yes, very often. 15,854. Do you make any charge for it?—No. 15,855. Does anything pass out of your gasworks as refuse which causes annoyance to anybody ?—I have not seen anything of the sort. 15,856. You do not discharge any foul water, gas tar, or ammoniacal liquor 2–No, it is all sold. 15,857. Do you make smoke 2–We make smoke sometimes. - 15,858. But not much?—No, we principally use coke. 15,859. Do you sometimes use coal?–No, it is too dear; we get a better heat out of coke. 15,860. I suppose the smoke is principally caused when you are charging the retorts —Yes, but it is not so very much. 15,861. Do you use much water for the purpose of slacking the coke 2–Yes. 15,862. Where do you get it?—We have a well of our own in the garden. 15,863. Do you use that well water for any other purpose ?—No, only for the ashpans underneath. 15,864. Do you use it for tea making in your own house?–No. 15,865. Where do you get your water for tea making 2—We fetch it from the town tap. 15,866. Do you use that water for washing –No. 15,867. What water do you use for washing 2—We collect soft water from the roofs of houses for that purpose; the other is too hard for washing. 15,868. Is that generally done throughout the town 2 —Yes, I believe so. When the other is used it curdles up, it is too hard. 15,869. (Professor Way.) What do you get a ton for the gas tar –About 11.1s. 15,870. And how much for the ammoniacalliquor * —5s. The witness withdrew. PONTEFRACT. Mr. J. Turpin. 30 Nov. 1866. Mr. W.Gunailſ. 3 M 4 464 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. PONTEFRACT. Mr. B. Hartley. 30 Nov. 1866. Mr. BERNARD HART.LEY (Pontefract) examined. 15,871. (Chairman.) Are you residing near Ponte- fract –Yes, in Tanshelf, the adjoining township. 15,872. Are you the nephew of Mr. Jesse Hartley, of Liverpool —Yes. 15,873. Are you bridge-master for this riding — Yes. 15,874. You hold your father's appointment 2–1 do. 15,875. Did you, sometime since, design a system of sewers for the commissioners of Pontefract?—In 1854 I designed the main sewer on the south side of the town. I was applied to only for that sewer. 15,876. What had been adopted previously to that sewer?—Open drains running down the valley. 15,877. Then that sewer was designed to collect the refuse and take it away to some point further out of the town —It intercepted the drains running south the whole length of the town. 15,878. And it carried the sewage to an outlet — It carried it to a point on the road to Knottingley, where it joins a brook which comes from the north of the town. 15,879. Were there depositing tanks built there 2– Yes. 15,880. Was it proposed to use the sewage from those depositing tanks on the land?—Yes. 15,881. Do you know whether that has been carried out 2–I believe not ; it was found not worth while to do so. 15,882. What is the sectional diameter of that sewer P-There were two diameters; there were about 600 yards, with an area of 660 inches, and about 1,282 yards, with an area of 1,779 inches. The sewer was egg-shaped, with an invert bottom of 18 inches in diameter. 15,883. I assume that you did not profess to be attempting more than simply an outlet sewer –Sim- ply an outlet sewer. 15,884. Not a system of sewers for the place —Not at all. 15,885. Did you put any ventilation into it?—There are man-holes. 15,886. Are they capable of being opened without the road being broken up 2–1 think not. - 15,887. They have not moveable covers ?–No 15,888. It would cost very little to put a moveable cover in before forming the road surface —Very little. 15,889. And in that case you might have a venti- lating grate by the side of the man-hole —Yes. 15,890. How long have you acted as surveyor to the riding —About 10 years. - 15,891. Is that since your father's death —Yes. 15,892. I suppose that you were brought up with him previously, when he was living 2–I was. 15,893. In fact you have acted either as assistant or as surveyor since you have been in business?— Yes. 15,894. You would consider yourself as having been articled to your father, or brought up with him 2– Yes. 15,895. Were you for any portion of your time with your uncle —Yes, for three or four years. 15,896. At Liverpool 2–Yes. 15,897. As Riding surveyor, have you had to take notice of any nuisances caused to rivers and streams by pollutions of any kind –It forms no part of my duty to take notice of such things. 15,898. Your duty consists in repairing highways and bridges —Yes, and the road attached to the bridges 100 yards on either side of each bridge. 15,899. Have you any records of the rainfall of the district which have been kept for any length of time by yourself or your father ?—Not by myself. I have no such record. 15,900. Have you any record of the height to which floods have reached in former periods 2–In certain cases I have records of that kind. 15,901. In your recollection have you had any of your bridges damaged or washed away by floods?— Not by natural floods. The case of the bursting of the reservoir at Sheffield, and the Holmfirth case, are exceptions. 15,902. Those came within your district 2—Yes. Until the last flood I have had no bridge washed away ; in the last flood I had a wooden bridge washed away, by Sowerby bridge. The last flood was higher than any I have known. The bridge was only built by me five years ago, and it was higher than the then flood water, but the last flood was three feet above it. 15,903. Where is that bridge situated 2–0 ver the Calder, about three miles from Sowerby bridge. 15,904. Was it entirely carried away in the last flood —Yes, it was slewed round on to the bank and floated off the piers. 15,905. Were the piers taken round 2–No. 15,906. What height vertically did that flood rise from the summer level up to its flood level?—About 13 feet I think on this occasion ; it was higher than any former flood of which I have had evidence. 15,907. Have you made yourself acquainted with the amount of rainfall in your district so as to gauge that particular flood —No. 15,908. We were sitting at Halifax at the time of that flood, and the evidence given to us was that there fell 4; inches in 48 hours, namely 2% inches each 24 hours. Have you noticed the character of the streams during the time that you have had to do with the bridges, as to whether they are to the eye more polluted than when you first knew them —They certainly are much more so. 15,909. They are getting darker coloured 2–They are much more offensive in every respect. 15,910. Do you consider them offensive to yourself when on them or near them —Frequently they are ; at Swillington bridge, and below Leeds, the stream is very offensive. 15,911. When you have had interviews with the magistrates with respect to your own business have they made remarks about the pollutions —On one or two occasions I have had my attention called to the outlets of sewers, but I have no legal power to interfere with them. 15,912. Supposing that in any conservancy of the streams jurisdiction to prevent pollution in your district was vested in yourself, and that you had proper means given to you, do you think that it is a duty which you could take upon yourself and carry out — I could not undertake it, it would be so extensive that no one man in the West Riding could undertake it. 15,913. I am assuming it to be put under the same department and a proper staff to be provided ?–1 do not think that I could undertake it. 15,914. Are you in private practice —I am not; I devote my whole time to the Riding, 15,915. It is an extensive Riding –It is. 15,916. What number of bridges have you under your charge —325. I have also all the public build- ings and asylums. 15,917. Are you at liberty to be consulted if any person wishes to consult you ; would you consider yourself at liberty to act as consulting engineer — That is rather a difficult question. I should not refuse to act simply as consulting engineer; I should not carry out any work. 15,918. Have you any restriction put upon you by your appointment –I have as to carrying out any other work. I should not undertake that. 15,919. At what points of your district are the rivers, in your estimation, most polluted?—I think that the Aire is the most polluted of all the streams, beginning perhaps at Kirkstall, and going down to its outlet. 15,920. I suppose that you have jurisdiction over the tributaries running down to the main streams ?— I have bridges over the tributaries. 15,921. Have you many fords in the Riding 2–Yes, a great many. 15,922. Where there are no bridges at all ?—Yes. 15,923. During flood periods is difficulty expe- RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 465 rienced in crossing at those points —I presume so ; I have nothing to do with the fords. - 15,924. You do not take charge of the stepping stones, or of the temporary means of getting across -TV. O. 15,925. Nor of the approaches 2–No. 15,926. Have the magistrates authority to put bridges wherever they think proper; could they bridge over those fords?—I think that that is more a question for the solicitor of the riding than for myself. 15,927. Since your appointment have you built any new bridges where there were no bridges before ?—I have not. 15,928. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you know the part of the river Aire above Keighley, where the improve- ments have been carried out by the commissioners? —I do. 15,929. Have you observed the effect of the im- provements?—I have. 15,930. Should you consider that they have been beneficial, or otherwise –They have been very bene- ficial I think. 5,931. What has been the effect on the bed of the river where any of your country bridges cross the river ?—At Stockbridge, which is just below Keigh- ley, the effect has been to lower the surface of the stream considerably. I should imagine that the bed is not interfered with. 15,932. I assume that as county surveyor your attention is drawn to the condition of the bed of the river where your bridges are 2–Yes, in the neigh- bourhood of the bridges. 15,933. Have you observed whether in any places the bed of the river has been raised ?–In many places it has been raised very much. - 15,934. Is not that liable to cause extra flooding of the river and to endanger your bridges —No doubt to an extent it does endanger the bridges, and causes back water in time of floods. 15,935. Have you, as county surveyor, or have the magistrates any power to prevent that accumula- tion, or to take steps for remedying it –I exercise a supervision over the stream for 50 yards on either side of any bridge, beyond that I have no control. 15,936. In cases where you have observed that the bed of the river has risen adjoining a bridge, to the danger of the bridge, have you taken any steps to have the bed of the river deepened 2–In the case of some small bridges I have had to have the whole watercourse frequently cleared out, but, as a rule, I have no power beyond 50 yards on either side of the bridge. - 15,937. You have power to deepen the bed your- self, but you have no power to call upon anyone else to do it?—Just so. 15,938. (Chairman.) If a turnpike road crosses one of your bridges, do you maintain it 50 yards on each side 2–As a rule I maintain 100 yards on each side of any bridge. 15,939. And the bridge itself —Yes, and the structure of the bridge. 15,940. You do not pass that duty into any other hands f—No. 15,941. It may be a turnpike road 2–It may be. 15,942. But you do not let the turnpike road trus- tees have authority over the surface —No ; I repair in each case. There are many exceptions to the rule of 100 yards; many of the bridges are supposed to end with the end of the battlement ; that is from custom, from long usage. 15,943. Have you jurisdiction over any of the bridges in Leeds?—Over the Leeds bridge. 15,944. Where the flats were sunk the other day P —Yes, that bridge is under my charge. 15,945. Did the flood injure the battlement of that bridge 2–I am not aware of it; I was there on the day of the flood; I have not been there since. 15,946. Are you aware that the battlement is lean- ing on the up side of the bridge –It is slightly; but I do not think that that was caused by the flood. 15,947. Is it under your charge that those old flats have been removed —No, I think that it is under the Aire and Calder Navigation Company. 15,948. But if that bridge had been swept down I assume that the county would have had to rebuild it 2 —No doubt. 15,949. When wharf walls, or quay walls of any sort, or graving docks, or yards are put up upon the banks of the river, have plans to be deposited with the magistrates, and do they come before you ?–Only in cases where such constructions come within the limit of the jurisdiction which I exercise over the stream, viz., 50 yards. I only see that they do not narrow the stream above or below the bridge, 15,950. Do you know the tributary becks which come down through Leeds into the main river ?–No. I have no bridges over them. 15,951. They are not under your charge?—They are not. 15,952. Then you have not seen that there are many archways and some buildings put over those streams?—I know that there are such things, 15,953. And that during the last flood the water was over them, in some cases 4 feet, and in some cases 6 feet —I have no doubt of it. 15,954. They must be very great obstructions to the down coming of the water –Yes. 15,955. If any person in Leeds, or anywhere upon the river, wishes to build a wharf wall for commercial purposes must he necessarily consult the magistrates, and would the plans come before you?—Not neces- sarily ; I can only interfere in case I find that he is contracting the width of the stream above or below the bridge. 15,956. The jurisdiction of the Aire and Calder Navigation Company is exercised under their own local Acts independently of the magistrates?–Yes. 15,957. And their dredging operations are carried on independently —Quite so. 15,958. You know and necessarily come into con- tact with Mr. Bartholomew, the engineer to the Aire and Calder Navigation ?—Very rarely. The only occasion on which I have to speak to him is to get him to draw the water off at some of the bridges when I have to repair them. 15,959. Do you superintend any dredging as county surveyor 7–No. 15,960. Only the refuse in the smaller streams if they are choked up near a bridge –Yes, that is all. 15,961. Do you think that the beds of the tributary streams are being raised above their former level by any action which is going on 2–I have no doubt that in many cases they are by ashes and refuse thrown in. 15,962. The last flood has done more damage to property bordering on the river than any flood which you recollect —Yes, much more damage. 15,963. I suppose that one reason would be because there is very much more property to be damaged — That no doubt would be one reason; the flood also has been much more extensive. 15,964. Are you aware that there is a flood-mark in Leeds, not very far from the Leeds bridge, which is either two or three feet higher than the last flood, and that that flood occurred in 1773?—I was not aware of that. 15,965. When we began taking evidence for the first week or two every witness declared that the floods were less now than they had been formerly, and that land drainage had done it all, and that we should never see such floods as we had had in former times 2 PONTEFRACT. Mr. B. Hartley. 30 Nov. 1866. -I should think that the effect of drainage was the contrary. 15,966. (Mr. Harrison.) Have you any county bridges below Ferry bridge?—No, Ferry bridge is the 1OWest. 15,967. Then you do not know the effect of the flood in the lower part of the Aire —I do not. The witness withdrew, 17159.-2, 3 N 466 RIVERS COMMISSION:–MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. PONTEFRACT. Mr. R. Heptinstall. 30 Nov. 1866. Mr. RICHARD HEPTINSTALL (Castleford) examined. 15,968. (Chairman.) Where do you reside —My residence is in Allerton-Bywater ; it is on the north bank of the rivers Aire and Calder, just below their confluence; they join about a quarter of a mile above my residence. 15,969. What business do you carry on ?—I am a corn miller and a maltster. 15,970. Where are your mills situated 2–In the parish of Castleford, on the south bank of the river, near the dam. 15,971. Do you use water or steam power, or both 2 —Both. 15,972. What amount of water power do you use 2 —About 30-horse power. 15,973. And what amount of steam power —About 10-horse power. 15,974. What weight of coal do you burn per annum ?—We do not use steam power regularly, only occasionally ; we attach it to one of the waterwheels when we have high water or slack water. When we use it we consume about 16 or 18 cwt. of coals per day. #975. What do you do with your ashes —We put them on the roads. 15,976. You do not put them into the river ?—Not all W. is 97. Are your mills situated within the town of Castleford 2–Yes. 15,978. Is there a local board in Castleford 2–Yes. 15,979. What is the population of Castleford –I should think about 6,000. 15,980. What is its rateable value –I do not know exactly; I should think about 8,000l. 15,981. Are you chairman of the local board?—Yes. 15,982. How long have you been chairman – About four years. 15,983. When did you adopt the Local Government Act 2–In 1849 or 1850. 15,984. You adopted the Public Health Act 2–Yes, and after that we adopted the Local Government Act. 15,985. Have you carried out any system of sewer- age 2–Yes. 15,986. Where do your sewers empty themselves 2 —Into the rivers Aire and Calder. 15,987. Have there been any complaints from any persons as to your emptying the sewers there?—I think not, at least very little. 15,988. Are there many waterclosets in the town 2 —Not many. 15,989. Are the houses generally drained and con- nected with the sewers ?—Yes. 15,990. Have you many private slaughter-houses in the town 2–Yes, a good many. We have no public slaughter-houses. 15,991. Do they drain into the sewers ?—Yes. 15,992. Of what age is your water-wheel; how long has it been situated where it is 2–I do not know. I should say a very long time. 15,993. Have you only one wheel?—We have two wheels. 15,994. Are they undershot or breast wheels, or overshot ?—They are both undershot. 15,995. Of what diameter are they 2–One is about 20 feet and the other about 17 or 18 feet. 15,996. There is a weir in the river opposite the place where your mill is 2–Yes. 15,997. Is your power as good now as when you first knew it?—No, the deals have been lowered about 13 or 14 inches by the Aire and Calder Navigation Com- pany, and consequently the head has been lessened. 15,998. Do they dredge the river below you ?— Yes, at a considerable distance below us, but they dredge a great deal above us. 15,999. Is your tail water as free to run away now as when you first knew it 2–I think not quite. 16,000. How long have you been acquainted with the river at that point and at that mill ?—I am about 47 years of age, and I was born at Castleford. I was away from Castleford from 1840 to 1850. 16,001. Did the last flood do you any injury 2–It did us a good deal of damage. 16,002. In what way ?–It did us damage in flour and bran, bean meal, and wheat. 16,003. If you had had these extra deal boards on the dam would not the damage have been greater?— They always knock down those boards when the water get to a certain height, so that they would not have made any difference. They used to be nearly three feet, and now they have cut them down to nearly 12 inches. These boards only apply to dry weather SeaSO11S. 16,004. Have you noticed whether your dry weather flow is more or less than it used to be ; are you shorter of water now than you were in former times : —The years 1864 and 1865 were the driest seasons that I ever knew. I never recollect being so short of water as during those seasons. 16,005. Has the last flood been as heavy as any which you remember 2—It has been about two feet higher than any flood which I ever remember before. 16,006. Was it as high as any flood that you have any record of; does any person remember a higher flood —I think that no person in our neighbourhood recollects so high a flood as the last one. 16,007. How long did it last?—The extreme flood was for about an hour on Saturday the 17th of No- vember, from 11 o'clock in the forenoon to 12. That was the highest point. 16,008. Looking at that flood, and seeing the effects of it, I suppose you would say that whatever the opinions may have been with regard to the diminution of floods the last flood is an answer showing that they have not diminshed 2–Exactly so. I certainly had formed the opinion that we should not have such high floods again as we had had, because we have not had them for several years, and the reason why we had a good deal of flour and grain damaged by the last flood was because we fancied it safe, as the place where it was had been out of the way of the highest previous flood, but this flood got up nearly two feet higher, and did us damage. 16,009. How is the condition of the water of the river now as compared with what you once knew it 2 —Formerly we lived in the township of Castleford, and near to the south bank of the river, and we used the water regularly for general purposes, and we con- sidered it very good indeed up to 1850. Then we removed to the north bank of the river. 16,010. What were the general purposes for which you used it *—For making tea, and washing and brewing, and all sorts of things. 16,011. For your domestic purposes?—Yes, we had no other water at the place where we resided. 16,012. What is its condition now 2–It has been very impure lately. 16,013. Is it offensive upon your mill wheel?—In 1864 the water was exceedingly offensive. I myself had diarrhoea very badly, and was laid up for some time. My wife and family also had it, and the millers in my employment were laid up with low fever and diarrhoea. One man was laid up for 10 weeks, and I had only a sufficient number of men to work one part of the mill for two or three weeks. 16,014. And you think that that was partly attri- butable to the impure state of the water and the effluvium arising from it —Yes. 16,015. Has it any injurious effect upon the flour * —I do not know; I cannot say that it has. 16,016. How many horse-power do you consider that your water-wheels are 2–About 30. 16,017. What does it take to drive a pair of stones 2 —It depends upon the quantity which you grind; as a rule we grind about three bushels an hour, and it takes three-horse power for one pair of stones. 16,018. And then you have dressing and cleaning machines?—Yes. 16,019. What does it take to drive those ?—I should think that it would take two or three horse power RIVERS COMMISSION:-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 467 for each dressing apparatus in each mill. We have two mills, and all the machinery for each mill is separate. 16,020. Then you calculate that you have 30- horse water power?—About 30-horse. 16,021. Is the mill your own, or do you rent it?— It belongs to the Aire and Calder Navigation Com- pany; I rent it. 16,022. What do you value a one-horse power at What is its nominal value, irrespective of local con- ditions 2—I am sure that I do not know exactly. 16,023. It is mixed up with other things?–Yes. 16,024. Would you prefer water power or steam power —It depends very much ; steam power is more certain, and water power is generally a little cheaper. 16,025. Did the last flood stop your wheel?—Yes; we were in backwater on the Friday morning, and we did not start one of our mills until Thursday noon in the next week. The other we started on Wednesday morning. 16,026. Did the flood do any injury to your ma- chinery —I think not, except that it warped the pit- wheel nearly up to the axle, and we had to take the warp out with buckets, and throw it into the river again. 16,027. Have your buckets iron shrouding —No, they are wood. One of the wheels is shielded, that is to say, it has iron at the side, but the other is open at the side. - 16,028. And there are simply flat boards projecting from the circumference of the wheel?—No, they are not exactly flat ; each board bends a little. 16,029. How long have the wheels been down — The water-wheels were before my day. They have been improved a good deal. Two or three years ago we put shields to one of them and new boards, which we considered improved it very much. One of the wheels is of new construction, and the bend at the bottom lifts out of the water rather easier. 16,030. Are you at all plagued by solid matter flowing down in the surface of the river and blocking the gratings?—Yes, and sometimes we are obliged to stop in order to get it out. 16,031. Are you at all troubled by the carcases of animals coming down?—Yes. 16,032. What are those carcases 2–Dogs and cats, and almost all sorts of things. 16,033. Do you take them out of the water or sludge them past?—We send them over the weir or dam and let them go to some one else. 16,034, You do not take them out to bury them 2– No, we have no ground to bury them in. 16,035. Do you get much of that class of refuse?— Yes, a good deal. 16,036. It is a nuisance to you ?—Yes. 16,037. In hot weather those carcases are very foul ?—Yes. 16,038. And they stink very bad —Yes. 16,039. Would you be sorry if it was the duty of some person to take out those carcases and bury them before they came to you ?—I think that that would be a very great improvement, and I should be very glad if it was done. 16,040. Have you much solid pollution coming down upon you in the shape of ashes, or have you had much formerly 2–It is not ashes exactly which comes upon us; it is more of a warpy sort of substance. 16,041. Have you any written remarks which you would wish to offer to the Commission ?–The water in the river was very clear and good excepting in flood times. That was the case 20 or 30 years ago, and we used nothing else for drinking purposes until about 1850. Up to that time there was a good quan- tity of fish in the river. I have frequently caught fish myself. 16,042. What fish 2–Chub, gudgeons, and such like. 16,043. And eels —I never caught any eels, but I have known my brother catch a good many eels there. He had a leap. 16,044. Had you any salmon –Yes, I generally saw salmon leap up at the dam in October and November up to 1850, and I have never seen them SLI1Ce. - 16,045. Have you had the Salmon Fishery Commis- sioners here?—No. 16,046. Will you proceed with your statement 2– Down below the dam it is very shallow water, and it used to be a noted place for fly-fishing, and I have seen large quantities of fish near to the bridge. You could see them from the bridge. Since that time the water has gradually become more impure, the flood waters have been darker in colour, and the sediment left on the bank has been more in quantity and the stench more offensive. In 1865, during the summer, in looking at the water you could see that it boiled up. A lump of stuff came up and relieved the water, and away it went down the river. The stench was so bad that when the wind came from a certain quarter a passer- by would almost be made to vomit. I carried a little camphor in my pocket, and generally applied it to my nose. During that time we burnt a little pitch when the stench came from the river into the mill. In 1865 the part of the water-wheel which runs into the river got coated with a white substance, almost as if you had painted it over, and when you touched it it was quite soapy and greasy, and it washed off again. That was in September and October 1865. - 16,047. Then you have come to the conclusion that the river is worse than it was when you first knew it as regards quality of water –There is no comparison. 16,048. Do you think that its condition will grow better or worse as things go on 2–I am afraid that it will grow worse. 16,049. Except something is done to prevent it?– Yes. It used to be a very nice walk to walk along the towing-path at Castleford, but in the last two or three summers it has been almost impassable. There has been a church lately built where I live, and I sometimes go to church in the evening, and I walk along the river bank, and I know that in summer my wife and family were obliged to go into the field and to keep a good way off, as the stench from the river was so bad. 16,050. Have your men complained to you about the state of the water in dry weather ?—Very often. 16,051. And you say that they have been seriously unwell ?—They have. 16,052. And you think that it was in consequence of emanations from the water at those periods –I think that it was. It appeared to me that the men who worked on the lower part of the floor were affected with it, but not those who worked on the upper parts. 16,053. Do you work night and day ?–We gene- rally work a day and a half, namely, from 6 in the morning till 11 at night; occasionally we should work all night. 16,054. Is there any difficulty in driving your machinery : Does it like a little idleness the same as human beings —No doubt millstones grind a good deal better when they have stood two or three hours during the night; they go on cooler in the morning. 16,055. Have you recently introduced any improve- ments in grinding to cool your stones or to carry air in 2–Yes, we have what they call an exhaust, which makes the stones grind cooler, and then it is much pleasanter to work and to be in the mill. Scarcely any dust comes down on the under floor. 16,056. Do you use French burrs —Yes, for grinding wheat. 16,057. What kind of stones have you?—What we call millstone, grit stones. 16,058. (Mr. Harrison.) You are chairman of the local board 2–Yes. 16,059. I presume that the sewer from the town discharges below your mill – One part of it. Castle- ford rises westward ; the water on the east side runs into the river considerably above the dam, nearly at the outside of the boundary, but the water on the other side runs below the dam. roach, dace, and PONTEFRACT. Mr. R Heptinstall. 30 Nov. 1866. 3 N2 468 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 16,060. How far does it discharge into the river above your mill?—Perhaps 400 or 500 yards. 16,061. Is the black substance which you mentioned as rising to the surface above the mill or below it – It is above the mill. 16,062. Then that may be the sediment from the sewage of Castleford, and not from that of Pontefract, or Leeds, or other towns —Only a very small portion of Castleford sewage enters the river above the dam, the principal part enters below the dam, and there- fore I should say that the pollution must come from elsewhere. 16,063. What is the water supply to Castleford 7– Private wells; formerly they used the river water, but they do not use much now. 16,064. You have not a regular water supply to the town 2–No. 16,065. Is the water well supplied from that source P —I think not ; you have only to sink a few yards to get water. By the regulations of the local board there is, I think, a convenience to about every four houses. 16,065a, Is the water contaminated?—I have heard the medical men complain that it is contaminated. 16,066. Do the medical men attribute ill health to that cause 2–Yes, in some cases. 16,067. Have the local board taken steps to prevent that?—They have taken steps to give a water supply at Castleford. A gentleman is present who will speak to that. 16,068. In what direction is that water supply to be obtained 2–I drew their attention to a part of the old river which was cut off by the Aire and Calder Company, which is in the township of Methley; it is a lake of 13 acres, but they found that by filtration they could not take out the taste, nor make it so good in colour as it ought to be. 16,069. That water comes from the Calder itself? —Yes. 16,070. Failing that source of water supply, in what direction have you to turn ?—Up to Glass-Houghton, a township in the parish of Castleford, where there have formerly been some coal mines, and a quantity of water now runs out into Castleford. We have had the water analysed, and found it exceedingly hard and scarcely fit for domestic purposes, although it is very bright to look at. It has been analysed by an eminent chemist in Liverpool; Dr. Simpson has had it analysed, he being our local officer. I believe that the Liver- pool chemist thinks it more fit for medical purposes than for domestic purposes. 16,071. If the Aire and Calder were in a proper condition, and not polluted as they are, the town of Castleford would in all probability have recourse to them for their water supply —No doubt they would. 16,072. That water is the softest which can be pro- cured, and from your experience as chairman of the local board there is no soft water to be obtained in a neighbourhood like that 2–I believe not. 16,073. Are there many waterclosets in Castleford * —I think not many. 16,074. Almost all the conveniences are privies and ashpits 2–Yes. 16,075. Have you had ill health attributed to the privies and ashpits at all, apart from the mischief they do to wells?—I have sometimes had my attention called to them by the medical man ; he has attributed ill health to the privies. 16,076. Has your local board taken any steps to have them removed ?–No, except when they are near the water supply. 16,077. Do you take any steps to have them cleaned out 2—Yes; we have an inspector of nuisances, who pays particular attention to them, and I think that he generally takes care that they are in a proper State. 16,078. The local board does not remove the con- tents 2–No. 16,079. Are the contents generally taken out into the country and applied to agricultural purposes 2– PONTEFRACT, Mr. R. Heptinstall. 30 Nov. 1866. Yes. 16,080. The boards which you state to be upon the dam are removed or altered as the Aire and Calder Company wish —Yes; they work in a joint; they consist of a number of long boards about a foot in breadth, and the Aire and Calder Navigation Company turn a crane which pulls out the pipes so as to let the water flow down ; they have a certain mark by which their man knows where to draw the deals down. 16,081. It is their own mill, and therefore they º a right to do what they like with the boards 2— e.S. Y 16,082. It is their own mill and their own weir 2– eS. 16,083. In ordinary floods does the water pass over the adjoining banks and flood the land much near your mill 2–Not much. I live in rather an awkward place, and this time the water has run over the banks and into the house. During the Saturday I was locked up in the bedroom I noticed the water very particularly; it came right over the fields and the garden and flooded the house, and flooded all the lands on both sides. 16,084. Do you think that much water escapes from the Aire and Calder in that way ?—in a flood like this a good deal would go over the banks; the water floods the land on both sides of the river considerably. 16,085. What is the length of the weir across the river ?—It is 50 yards long, and I should think about 20 yards in breadth. 16,086. What height does the water rise above it in an ordinary flood —In the last flood there was very little difference between the level of the water on the top side and the level of the water on the low side of the dam, and as the fall at low water is about seven feet, the water must have risen about eight feet on the top side and 16 feet on the low side; there might have been a foot fall from the top side to the lower side, but I saw them run over it with boats. 16,087. The weir was completely thrown out of operation ?–It was. 16,088. How many days in the course of a year are you impeded in consequence of floods?—It depends very much upon the rainfall. Sometimes we are very much impeded and sometimes not so much. I cannot tell how many days we are stopped ; it depends upon the seasons; sometimes we have run for nearly the whole winter and have been scarcely at allin back- water, and sometimes we have been in backwater for nearly three weeks together, or perhaps have had a day or two in each week. 16,089. In some cases you have been backwatered with much less flood for a longer period than you were a fortnight ago 2–Yes. 16,090. A continuous rain and a continuous flood is more injurious to you, so far as water power goes, than an excessive flood such as happened the other day?—Yes, it passed off in a reasonable time. 16,091. Have you ever considered the advisability of having your water-wheels so that you could raise them in case of a flood, and take advantage of it —I do not think that it would be practicable; if you raise the wheels you must raise the lower part as well, or the water would go right through. 16,092. In consequence of the character of your water-wheel?—Yes; I do not think that it would be practicable with our wheels. 16,093. What height does an ordinary flood rise over your weir 2—About 14 feet is the highest flood which I have known before the last one, and of course it varies up to that. 16,094. (Professor Way.) Besides grinding corn you are, I think, a maltster 2–Yes, a small maltster; the maltkiln is on the north bank of the river, near my residence. 16,095. You, I suppose, use water for wetting the barley?—Yes. 16,096. Does that liquid run into the river ?—Yes. 16,097. Is it offensive in any way ?—It does not appear to be offensive when it runs away, and I do not think that it is particularly so. 16,098. Does it smell acid —I cannot say: I think RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 469 that I have smelt it a little acid sometimes in hot weather, but not in cold weather. I only steep about 10 quarters every four days. 16,099. Are there any breweries near you ?—Yes, there is one about a mile from us. 16,100. Is that the brewery which was spoken of this morning —No, it is not far from the bank of the Calder; the other brewery is about five miles from us, on the bank of the Aire, or very near to the river Aire. 16,101. Do you agree with Mr. Home that the dis- charge from that brewery makes the river offensive 2 —I have not been there. 16,102. You do not go past that district —No. 16,103. What is the case with the brewery near ou?—It is very offensive. 16,104. What is the nature of the smell from it f- It is something like the smell of sour ale—ale going bad; the smell is very bad indeed; the liquid runs down into the open sewer, and there is not very much fall, and it stands, and the stench is very bad, it is not quite like the smell from a petty; there is decomposed yeast and such like things, principally barrel washings; at all events the liquid is very offensive in this open SCWer. 16,105. (Chairman.) Have you thought over the question of how to prevent the pollution of the river in future ?—-Yes. 16,106. In what form have your thoughts shaped themselves?—My opinion is that the best plan to remedy the evil would be to run the matter into tanks, and to let the water run off again into the river, or to do something to purify it. 16,107. Have you thought at all as to what the future conservancy of the river should be 2–I have not. 16,108. Are you inconvenienced in your business by smoke from other premises —We have a good many glass works in Castleford, and we should be better without smoke ; I have frequently named the matter to my neighbours. 16,109. Do they tell you that they cannot burn the smoke –I have named it to them, and they have said that the principal cause of the smoke was the manner in which the stoker fired, and that if he put on the fire more regularly it would consume a good deal of the smoke. 16, 110. Do you know that there is a patent by a gentleman of the name of Semmins, by which the whole of the operations of glass making can be carried on without any smoke 2–Is it by gas 16,111. Yes.—It would improve very much the appearance and health of Castleford if we could have less smoke. - - 16,112. (Mr. Harrison.) Castleford is an improving place, is it not *—Yes. 16,113. It is increasing in population ?–It has in- creased very much indeed since I can remember. 16,114. Between 1851 and 1861 what was the increase ?—I do not know exactly; but I think that at the first census which I knew, which was in 1831, we had only 1,000, and now within the district of the Castleford Board of Health we have about 6,000; there is a good deal called Castleford which is not actually in the township of Castleford. The malt- kiln which I occupy is called Castleford ; the sur- veyors of Inland Revenue call it Castleford ; it is quite adjoining, but it is not included in the township ; it is in another township. 16,115. So that if you took in all those places the increase would appear even larger than you have stated 2–It would. 16,116. What is the death rate of Castleford with- in the limits of your local board 2–I think that it is tolerably good ; the death rate of last year was about 18 or 19 per 1000. 16,117. Has the health of the people improved of late years, or the contrary 2–1 think that the health of the people has been better in the last three or four years than it was before ; I think that we have had less fever and less diarrhoea. 16,118. When was your local board established ?– About 13 or 14 years ago. 16,119. Do you attribute the improvement in the health to the steps which the local board have taken P —Yes; considerable attention has been paid to lodg- ing-houses by the inspector of nuisances and the police. 16,120. Does your experience at Castleford go to show that Castleford, being managed under a local board under which houses are built by regulation, is better off than Pontefract where people build houses just as they like —I am sure that at Castleford they would not make the houses so healthy if it was not for some restriction. I know that in the adjacent part, namely Whitwood-Mere, they build houses with- out such conveniences as there are in Castleford, and our officer of health, Dr. Simpson, will tell you that Whitwood-Mere houses are much less healthy than those in Castleford. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM NEWTON WILKINSoN (Castleford) examined. 16,121. (Chairman.) You are agent to the Aire and Calder Navigation Company, resident at Castle- ford?—Yes, at Allerton-Bywater, adjoining Castleford. 16,122. Are you their business agent –I am col- lector. 16,123. How long have you been resident there 2 —Ten years. 16,124. How long have you known the Aire and Calder rivers ?–50 years. 16,125. In what condition are they now as com- pared with what they were when you first knew them? —They are certainly very much interfered with by sewage compared with what they were when I was a lad. I have been in the service of the company 32 years. 16,126. At what period of the year do you find the rivers, or the streams, the most offensive –We found the water more particularly offensive in the year 1865, during prolonged dry warm weather. 16,127. Was it the exposure of mud which was offensive, or the water itself?—I am of opinion that the smell arose from the Leeds sewage having been turned into the rivers, and accumulated in large patches previous to a flood. We knew that a flood was coming when we saw what our workmen called “porpoises” coming. These lumps rise to the surface, and a certain amount of gaseous matter escapes from them, and then they sink again ; this occurs imme- diately preceding a flood, and the smell occasioned is very offensive. 16,128. Have any of your men been in any way affected or injured by the bad smell of the water f—I have not known of any who have been directly so. 16,129. Have you heard any of them complain of sickness 2–No. 16,130. Are you resident near —The office and my house are directly at the point of confluence of the two rivers. 16,131. What do your duties consist of as regards the river ?—I have no duties except as collector of dues, but I am annoyed by the smell from it. 16,132. Have you ever seen carcases of dead animals floating on the river in dry weather ?—Daily and hourly. 16,133. Are they a cause of nuisance —I have no question of it ; I have called the attention of the company’s servants repeatedly to it and asked them to remove them further down the river. 16,134. Then would not they become a nuisance to someone else below 2–No question of it. 16,135. Would you not imagine that if it was the business of some persons to cleanse the river it would PONTEFRACT, Mr. R. Iłeptinstall. 30 Nov. 1866. Mr. W. N. Wilkinson. 3 N 3 470 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. PONTEFRACT. Mr. W. N. Wilkinson. 30 Nov. 1866. be the readiest method to take out those carcases and bury them 2–It would be an onerous duty. 16,136. But if it was the duty of persons, and if they were paid for performing it, would it not be much better 2–Undoubtedly. 16,137. Did you suffer any inconvenience from the recent flood?—None, excepting the flooding of the cellars of my house about six feet. 16,138. Did it injure any of the property of the company 2–Very materially. 16,139. What property did it injure?–Not only the locks but all the property adjoining, I should think to the extent of 2,000l. or 3,000l. 16,140. Were some of the locks injured?—-Yes, in the Upper Calder. - 16,141. Were they injured by the accumulation of water or by the solids brought down —That I cannot State. 16,142. Was it as large a flood as you have ever known since you recollect the river ?–I should think that it was about 2 feet 6 inches higher than the flood which occurred about 22 years ago. I was in the service of the company at Wakefield then. 16,143. Have you knowledge of any higher flood than this last one 2–None, except the one which was referred to by a previous witness in 1775; that was higher, I should think, by probably 18 inches. 16,144. Has it occurred to you that anything should be done to correct the present foul condition of the rivers if possible?—My humble judgment is that you should prevent the Leeds sewage, and all other sewage, from going into the river. - 16,145. That it should not be allowed to go in as at present —Certainly not. - 16,146. Do you know anything of the dredging operations upon the river ?–Yes. 16,147. Are they much larger than formerly 2– Yes, we have two dredgers now, we had only one 25 years ago. - 16,148. Is the tonnage of your boats larger than it was formerly 2–It is larger. 16,149. Do you not think that boats of heavier ton- nage would require dredging in order to get the river down to a deeper draft?—They would necessarily require it to a greater extent. ió,150. So that the dredging may be to deepen the navigation as well as to keep it clear from refuse brought down, 2–We profess to keep a navigation of 7 feet. 16,151. What is the deepest draft of boat which you have?—The deepest draft is 7% feet at best water. 16,152. Then it will puzzle that boat to go along a channel of 7 feet?—Yes, but onr navigation from Goole to Leeds, or from Goole to Wakefield, is 7 feet. 16,153. How can a boat of 7 feet 6 inches or 8 feet get along there?—It cannot do it. With reference to dredging, there is no question that the Leeds sewage is the great cause of the frequent necessity. 16,154. The sewage of the town of Leeds 2— Yes. 16,155. It is the pollution brought down from Leeds which causes the great injury and the great incon- venience which you suffer?—There is no question of it. 16,156. You mean the floating matter which comes down does the injury –Yes. 16,157. (Mr. Harrison.) Has the late flood formed banks to any great extent in different parts of the river ?–It has accumulated a great quantity of mud on the edges of the river. 16,158. Since the flood have the boats experienced any difficulty in passing up and down the Calder 2– Yes, the flood has accumulated a great quantity of sand opposite my house. Instead of having a 7 feet navigation I should think that the navigation is now not more than 6 feet. We shall at once have to bring our dredgers to work. 16,159. And your dredgers will have hard work for some little time until you get the depth restored – Yes. 16,160. (Chairman.) You are situated at the junc- tion of the Aire and the Calder P-I am. 16,161. Is there any difference in the water of the two rivers ?–A decided difference. 16,162. Which is the better and which is the worse —The river Aire is like a huge sewer in hot weather; comparatively speaking, the Calder is clear. 16,163. (Mr. Harrison.) The volume of water passing down the Calder is larger than that passing down the Aire, is it not *—Yes, just at the mouth it is. 16,164. And the population upon the Calder is pro- bably less than that upon the Aire 2–I do not know; I am not prepared to say that. 16,165. Leeds and Bradford are upon the Aire — Yes; and Halifax, and Dewsbury, and Wakefield are upon the Calder. 16,166. (Professor Way.) Why do you attribute the whole of the evil to Leeds?—Because the evil of the Leeds river is more prominent than that of the other. 16,167. Are there not Bradford and several other towns —Bradford comes into the Leeds river. 16,168. But you say that it is the Leeds sewage 2 ---What we call the Leeds dyke embraces Bradford. 16,169. I understood you to say, and another wit- ness previously said, that the injury had arisen since the Leeds sewage had been turned into the river Aire 2 —The evil has been brought more prominently before UIS. 16,170. May not other causes besides the discharge of that sewage have contributed to make the river bad in that case ?—Possibly so, but the matter has not been so directly brought before us. - 16,171. When you mention the period of the Leeds sewage being discharged as the period at which the nuisance began, the common acceptation of that would be that Leeds was the cause of it?—We never felt the inconvenience until the Leeds sewage was turned into our rivers. 16,172. Is it possible that other towns were at the same time contributing to the pollution of the river Aire?—No question of it; but when Leeds turned all their sewage into it it brought the evil to a climax, and then we felt it. 16,173. But you do not mean to say that the whole injury has been done by Leeds 2—Certainly not. 16,174. Has not the river been getting foul from other sources during that time 2—No doubt it has, but not to such extent as from the Leeds sewage; the Leeds sewage has been the great cause. 16,175. You know that at the present time Leeds is not half or one fourth sewered –Possibly not. 16,176. And, therefore, if sewerage was carried out in Leeds to the fullest extent the sewage would be very much more than at present –Possibly. My opinion is, that if it goes on for the next 10 years at the rate which it has gone on our river will not be navigable at all. 16,177. You seem to ascribe the whole obstruction to sewage. Are you aware that large quantities of solid matter are thrown in from different manufactories along the river ?—Then the parties are liable under the Aire and Calder Company's Act. 16,178. Are you aware that there are also large quantities of dye water —We have no claim upon anybody unless solid matter is thrown in. 16,179. I suppose that putting a stop to the dis- charge of sewage would not purify these rivers?—It would be the most desirable thing possible. I do not say that it would clear the river altogether and make our salmon came back again, but it would be a very great thing. 16,180. Have you noticed the condition of the streams progressively, irrespective of sewage —I have not. 16,181. (Mr. Harrison.) Your officers could only interfere with the throwing of ashes and other refuse into the river within the limits of their jurisdiction ? —Exactly so. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 47] 16,182. Bradford is not within your jurisdiction ? —It is not. 16,183. And there are a great number of mills at other places in the same case. Keighley is not within your jurisdiction ?–Yes. 16,184. (Professor Way.) But still you have been giving an opinion in the abstract, apart from your official position, as to the causes of the pollution of the river ?—Just so. 16,185. And your opinion is that the river has been brought into its present state by the discharge of sewage —I do say so. 16,186. Have you taken into account the other sources of pollution which in our opinion are very considerable 2–No. I recollect that about nine months ago, when our man was dredging with his machine, I said to him, “It smells badly,” and he said “Yes, sir; it is entirely from this Leeds sewage.” 16,187. (Chairman.) Do you know that Leeds deals with probably more skins than any other place in England, and perhaps than any other place in the world?—Yes. 16,188. That it dresses and tans 3,700,000 skins per annum ?—I am ignorant of that. 16,189. Refuse from tanpits and skinneries may have something to do with the pollution ?—No doubt of it ; but our dredger's pans are filled with a certain material which I need not explain to you gentlemen. 16,190. Waterclosets are carried out to a very small extent in Leeds as compared with the population, or as compared with London and other towns, and if the watercloset system is put into operation you will be ten times worse off than you are now 2–Yes. 16,191. Have you thought it necessary that Govern- ment should step in to remedy this state of things — Government or some other authority must step in or we shall cease to be a navigation. 16,192. What other authority should step in ; the Aire and Calder Navigation Company have statutory powers to prevent solids being thrown into the river ? —Yes, but offenders are so insidious that we cannot catch them. 16,193. (Mr. Harrison.) How are you supplied with water in the tongue of land between the Aire and the Calder 2–From the hills. 16,194. I mean for your own domestic supply – My own individual domestic supply is from pumps and from rainwater. 16,195. Is the water from the pumps useful and satisfactory for domestic purposes?—We have no reason to complain of it ; it is pretty well filtered. 16,196. Is it a hard water 2–Yes. 16,197. What depth is the well ?—I am not pre- pared to say that. 16,198. Does the water in the well come from the river filtered through the rock —That is my Impression. 16,199. And that filtration you find sufficient to give you a pure water –We have a good water for domestic purposes. For soft water purposes we have water quite different from that. The witness withdrew. Mr. ADAM JEssop (Castleford) examined. 16,200. (Chairman.) Do you practice as a surgeon in Castleford?—Not at the present time ; I have done SO. 16,201. How long have you been resident in Castle- ford —About 37 years. 16,202. What is the population of Castleford – About 6,000 at the present time. 16,203. Do you remember the first outbreak of cholera in 1832 —I do. 16,204. Did it prevail to any extent in Castleford 2 —Yes, to a great extent at that time in comparison with the population. 16,205. In what parts of the district or town did it then prevail?—Mostly in the lower parts of the town near to the water, and in the lower parts of the ill- drained districts. 16,206. In 1832 in what state was the river as com- pared with what it is now —The river at that time was in a much better state than it is at the present time. 16,207. Do you remember the outbreak of cholera in 1848-49 P-I do. 16,208. Was it more severe or less severe than in 1832 2–It was much more severe than it was in 1832. 16,209. Was the state of the river better or worse then 2–It would be a little worse than it was in the first outbreak. 16,210. What has been the health of the population since 1849 and 1850 —I think upon the whole pretty ood. 16,211. Have any improvements been carried out since that last outbreak of cholera in 1849 to account for the better state of health 2–Yes, drainage more especially. 16,212. Is there any public water supply 2–No. nor even is there much private water supply at the present time. 16,213. Then where do the poorer population get their water 2–Mostly from the river at the present time ; there is no other source. - 16,214. Do you mean that at this time they obtain water for domestic purposes from the river ?—Yes, principally, 16,215. Although it is tainted by sewage 2– Yes. A colliery in the neighbourhood has latterly been opened, which has drained our private well. 16,216. There is, I understand, a local board in Castleford P−Yes. 16,217. Do you know whether they have consi- dered it a part of their duty to discuss this question of giving the inhabitants a proper supply of water 2 —I believe that the matter has been frequently dis- cussed by them, but not yet with any beneficial effects; at all events, they have not yet come to any decision. 16,218. Did you notice the last flood which you have had 2–I did. 16,219. Has it left any evil effects upon the popu- lation ?—It appears to have done considerable damage, to the property near the river more especially. 16,220. Did it flood dwellings of any of the poorer people *—A great number. 16,221. And in flooding them it would of course render them damp 2–Yes, and of course they would remain damp for some time. 16,222. And I suppose that, as a medical man, you would say that the injurious effects would not be visible now, but will come out hereafter P-No doubt. 16,223. The human being does not necessarily give way immediately 7–Just so. 16,224. But these evil influences may show them- selves in after life –They will no doubt be felt in the course of time. 16,225. (Mr. Harrison.) How long is it since you ceased to practice in Castleford *—A little more than 10 years. - 16,226. Then you have hardly had an opportunity from experience and practice of observing the im- provement in health consequent upon the formation of the local board?—No, not from my own personal knowledge, but I believe that health has improved since then. 16,227. (Chairman.) Do you know anything about the sewerage of Castleford 2–I do. 16,228. It is sewered 2–In some parts. 16,229. Are you a member of the local board – No. 16,230. Is there anything further which you wish to add 2–I would simply say that I think that the health of Castleford might be very materially im- proved by an efficient water supply, and especially PONTEFRACT. Mr. W. N. Wilkinson. 30 Nov. 1866. Mr. A. Jessop. 3 N 4 472 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, PONTEFRACT, Mr. A. Jessop. 30 Nov. 1866. Mr. R. Heptinstall. by the drains being better ventilated. They are not ventilated at all now. I think that that is a very im- portant matter, and I was very pleased to hear the Chairman make the very firm observations which he made a short time ago as to the ventilation of drains. It is a matter which I have thought of for some time. I may further say that the rainfall on Friday the 16th of November, commencing at about 3 a.m. to half- past 5 p.m. was 3,'oth inches at Castleford. 16,231. As gauged by yourself?—Yes. We had no rain, previous to 3 o'clock, and none after half-past 5 o'clock on Friday. The rain did not continue 24 hours, but simply 14, hours. 16,232. (Mr. Harrison.) We have had information that it rained for 48 hours, but we gather that during those 48 hours no more rain fell than what you men- tion —On the Sunday we had a little more rain, but only rather more than the tenth part of an inch. The witness withdrew. Mr. RICHARD HEPTINSTALL (Castleford) further examined. 16,233. (Chairman.) You have carried out certain sewers in Castleford F-Yes. 16,234. Who designed your sewers 2–In the first place we had a person of the name of Peter Sharrock. We employed him as surveyor, and he surveyed the district and made us a plan, and gave us the depths and so on, and the sewerage was laid according to his plan. 16,235. Have you more than one outlet 2—We have two outlets. 16,236. Where do they empty themselves?—Into the rivers Aire and Calder. 16,237. Below the junction?—Yes. 16,238. Do you know at what depth the inverts of those sewers are laid as regards the dry weather flow of the river?—The bottom of the lower sewer, which empties itself in below the dam, is not much above the low water level ; it is about a foot. 16,239. Then so long as it is dry weather that sewer discharges its contents down into the river ?— It does. 16,240. What does it do when the river is in flood 2 It cannot carry the sewage down when there is a flood. 16,241. Does a flood backwater the sewer –Yes. 16,242. The sewage flows up 2–Yes, no doubt. 16,243. When the river is above the summer level the sewers are necessarily backwatered and flooded ?— Although the outlet of the sewer may be covered 2 feet the water still runs out, because the sewer has a considerable fall. 16,244. The flood will backwater it so far as the flood will reach in the sewer -- Yes. 16,245. Are you aware that when sewers are in that condition any solids in the sewers coming down will, immediately upon the sewage coming into dead water, begin to deposit *—I daresay. We have one preventive in the sewer ; a sort of well is made where the grates are below the sewer, so that the solid de- posit remains in the well, and the water runs off again. 16,246. Of what size is that well ?—About 18 inches square. 16,247. You mean the gully 2–Yes. 16,248. In the rain which we have heard of that well would be filled with solids in the first five minutes ?—Perhaps it might be. 16,249. And after that the solids must go away with the water –Yes. I have no doubt that a good deal of solid matter would go into the river. 16,250. Are your sewers at all ventilated —Not at all. 16,251. After what you have heard do you think that you will attempt to ventilate them —I think that they ought to be ventilated. 16,252. Have you ever heard any complaints of foul smells from the sewers —Yes, I have frequently smelt them myself, but that is generally in hot weather, and then we apply a little chloride of lime to them, which takes the smell off for a time. 16,253. But there may be plenty of cases which escape your notice where the mischief is going on 2– It may be so. 16,254. Is there any protection over the mouth of your sewer to prevent the wind blowing up it —No. 16,255. If the wind is blowing pretty strong in the direction of the mouth of the sewer, do you think that it is possible that it may blow in and blow the foul gases up into the town — I think that it might do so. 16,236. Do you think that it might be advisable to cover the mouth of the sewer with a ſlap?—Yes, a sort of door. 16,257. Carrying that door to the bottom of the sewer within about six inches 2–Yes. 16,258. The dry weather sewage would then flow out without inconvenience, and the wind would not be allowed to blow in so as to drive the gases up into the town 2–Yes, I think that that would be an improvement. 16,259. I suppose that you have not noticed that at particular periods people complain more of the stink than at other times – have not noticed that par- ticularly. I think that it would be an improvement to have a door at the bottom. 16,260. And to ventilate all the higher points 2– Yes... We have a new scheme of sewerage which we are discussing; what we call the western portion of Castleford drains into an open drain in the township of Whitwood. In that open sewer the water stands a good deal and is stagnant. We have made an offer to the Whitwood people to construct a new sewer in the lower part of Castleford, and to take it out to the lower part of the town, and to allow them to put all their sewage below the dam instead of above the dam, which would give the Whitwood-Mere people a con- siderable fall. We promised to take the sewer to a certain point if they would take it forward. That would put their sewage water in at a lower level than they have had hitherto, and we also should put our sewage in below the town. But unfortunately they have no local board, and they have no legal means of getting money to do the work with ; it is, however, under consideration with them. 16,261. The new Sanitary Act gives them the machinery and the power to raise the money?— They have applied for permission to come under the Local Government Act, but they have not sufficient population. 16,262. If they petition the Secretary of State a Commissioner will very probably be sent down, and although the population is below the requisite amount, yet, if they are willing to adopt the Act, I can answer for it that no obstruction will be thrown in their Way, for the alteration was made to serve this purpose. After the Highway Act was introduced parties adopted the Local Government Act simply for the purpose of checkmating the Highway Act 2–Yes; but they are A. very anxious to come under the Local Government Ct. 16,263. (Mr. Harrison.) Has your board considered the propriety of irrigating land with sewage 2–No. 16,264. Is there land suitable for the purpose?— Yes, I believe so ; there is land in the neighbourhood. 16,265. Upon which the sewage could easily be carried ?–I think so; it would have to be raised by artificial means, it cannot run on of itself. There is some land belonging to Lord Houghton on which the sewage might go ; it is not in the township of Castle- ford, it is just beyond the boundary. 16,266 (Chairman.) Did you ever see a sewage farm –No. 16,267. Did you ever see 20 tons of grass cut from an acre at one cutting 2—No. 16,268. Did you ever hear of it?—No ; that seems an immense quantity from an acre at one cutting. 15,269. Twenty-five tons have been cut and sold at 11, a ton, it having been grown in three weeks; that is RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 473 Italian rye grass, and from 50 to 60 tons per annum have been cut from the same land 2–It seems an im- mense quantity. I have no doubt that sewage would be very good for agricultural purposes if properly applied. 15,270. If you begin to grow Italian rye grass you must store the field with it, and, if possible, the most profitable thing to which you can apply it is to give it to milch cows, and to turn it into milk on the same day that it is cut –Yes, in a green state. 16,271. (Mr. Harrison.) When your sewer is water- logged during a flood is the sewage forced back into any of the cottages —I think that it may be forced back into some cottages in a low locality. 16,272. Does not it come under your notice as the local board whether'such is the case or not ?—We know that the sewage does get flooded back into cottages, but we have no remedy at present. 16,273. You have created the nuisance ; may not the parties look to you for the remedy ?—We want some system of getting rid of the sewage. 16,274. Is it not incumbent upon your local board to take some steps for the purpose, and not to let those cottages be in that condition ?–If we allow the sewage to come up the sewer I think that we should take it away, but when a flood comes, and flood and sewage are all in the houses together it is a difficult matter. 16,275. (Chairman.) Have you read of the drainage of Holland 2–Yes. 16,276. There are enormous areas there many feet below the sea level?—I suppose so. 16,277. And they manage to keep the water out 2 —-Yes. 16,278. With regard to your backwatered sewers, it is quite possible to sewer a place which is below high water and yet never to allow it to be flooded ? —Yes, it could be done if we had doors to keep the water from coming up. 16,279. When a flood rose they would prevent the water from getting in, but of course they would prevent the sewage from getting out 2–Yes. We have some- times thought of another plan of cleansing the sewer, that is running the water into the sewer above the dam, and making an outlet for the sewer below the dam. I do not know whether the Aire and Calder Navigation Company would allow this or not ; it would be an improvement. The lower part of Castleford is the worst, the upper part is well drained and well sewered, the difficulty is with the lower part. JAMEs HoRATIO SIMPson Esq., M.D., (Pontefract), examined. 16,280. (Chairman). You are resident in Pontefract —Yes. 16,281. How long have you been resident here 2– I think about 21 or 22 years. 16,282. Are you acquainted both with Pontefract and with Castleford –Pretty well. I am acquainted with Castleford as having been its officer of health now for about eight or nine years, I think ever since the local board was formed, with the exception of the first three ear’S. y 16,283. What is the condition of the public health at Castleford as compared with Pontefract –I do not know that I can speak as to the mortality of Pontefract, because I have never made any analysis of the returns, but I should think that Castleford stands in a better condition as far as regards its death rate than Ponte- fract. I am only speaking now from that which I recollect in the last two or three years. I do not think that the case was the same in the first two or three years of my appointment. 16,284. Pontefract, we understand, has neither sur- veyor, officer of health, nor anybody but a mayor, and a town clerk, and commissioner –I do not know that it has had any surveyor, or any officer of health, until the last five or six months; and since the out- break of cholera I think that one of the medical men was appointed officer of health during the last three or four months. A police constable has always acted as the inspector of nuisances. 16,285. In what state do you consider the present water supply of Castleford to be 2–It is very bad. 16,286. Do the people complain of difficulty in obtaining proper water —They have complained very much to me when I have gone round of the difficulty of obtaining water, and also of the supply of water in the wells diminishing, but I do not know that that was to be attributed to anything so much as the peculiarly dry weather of 1865. 16,287. Do you think that the water has increased in the wells since the last wet season —Yes, except that the pumping of a coalpit which has been sunk has certainly affected it. - 16,288. And if the operations of coal are extended I presume that the effect will be much more serious —That I cannot tell. 16,289. In what state is the river as it flows past Castleford —It is as bad as it can be ; it is very much fouled by pollution, particularly the pollution of the towns above. Of course Castleford does its best to make it worse, like most other places on the sides of the river; I mean by throwing its own sewage into the river. 16,290. It receives the sewage in the river from 17159.-2, above, and it puts in its own sewage to the injury of people below –Yes. 16,291. Is it the fact that a great number of per- sons now drink the water of the river ?—I do not think that many of them do, unless that has been so since the operation of sinking the coalpit. They do not do so in the town, because their reply to me was that they could not use that water, and that even boiling it did not take out its nasty taste. 16,292. Are there any waterclosets in Castleford P —There are only nine. 16,293. How many privies are there 2–A great number ; there are 438 privies. 16,294. And what is the population ?—Above 6,000. 16,295. What amount of population would be re- presented if you took a privy to each family 2–I do not know. A large number of the houses built in Castleford have been built in the last few years, many of them have been run up as a speculation, and others by private individuals as a matter of letting. 16,296. Have you much excrementitious matter upon the surface P-Not a great deal. 16,297. Where do the people go —To the privies. The privies are very fairly constructed. 16,298. Do you think that there is sufficient accom- modation for the population ?—I should say not. 16,299. Then if there is not sufficient accommoda- tion for the population, children and adults must be driven occasionally to the use of the bye-lanes and the streets —I cannot say that there is much impurity of that sort in the streets. I should think that the poorer population in Castleford are far better supplied with privy accommodation than they are in most towns. 16,300. In the expression “most towns” do you include this in which we are sitting —As to that I cannot speak. I think that there is about one privy for every three or four houses. 16,301. Then the word “privy” ought to be sponged out, because the word “privy” means privacy, and it cannot be a very privy thing if it has to serve four or five houses. In what condition are those places; have you ever as officer of health had your attention called to them ; are they kept clean, or are they dirty —The bulk of them are kept very clean ; in some few cases they are not clean where they are attached to lodging-houses, or where there are old premises which cannot be interfered with by the local board without great trouble. Most of them are con- structed in such a form that they will not take above a certain quantity, and I believe that the local board take care that they are very frequently emptied, at least that is what I have urged upon the surveyor. 16,302. You know very well that when that effete 3 O PONTEFRACT - Mr. R. Heptinstall. 30 Nov. 1866. J. H. Simpson, Esq., M.D. 474 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. PONTEFRACT. J. H. Simpson, 12sq., M.D. 30 Nov. 1866. matter is kept for a few weeks it becomes putrid – Yes. 16,303. And when it has set up putridity it begins to ferment 2–Yes. 16,304. And when fermentation sets in there are gases of decomposition given off?—No doubt. 16,305. Do you know whether those gases are injurious to health, or otherwise –It is the opinion of many medical men that those gases are injurious, but there is perhaps an answer to them, namely, that the men engaged in cleaning out privies and things of that sort do not complain, and very often do not suffer as those who are not so engaged do. I should say that privies are objectionable so far as they are injurious to property, but whether they are injurious to health, unless they are very largely concentrated, I do not like to assert upon my own professional opinion. 16,306. Are you aware that it is a fact that in pro- portion as middens, cesspools, and cesspits have been removed from the midst of a population, and fermen- tation has been prevented, the health of the district has been improved 2–There I quite agree with OUI. 16,307. Whether the gases are injurious directly or indirectly —Yes, I quite agree with you on that point, that it is desirable that they should be removed (as frequently as they can be), and that extreme cleanliness should be used. 16,308. For instance, in the case of a privy attached to a cottage house, we will say that the bedroom win- dow may open over the surface of that privy — Yes. 16,309. If, as in many instances, the privy is posi- tively projected underneath the sleeping room then any gases of decomposition will ascend into that room? —Then I should say that that privy is decidedly in- jurious to health, and that such a thing ought not to be allowed if it could possibly be avoided. 16,310, You know, I suppose, the symptoms of typhus fever ?–Yes. 16,311. Do you agree with other medical men that that is what is termed the dirt fever, or a fever posi- tively caused by something foul which is removeable * —I think that very likely it is attributable to those circumstances. 16,312. Over-crowding, bad clothing, bad lodging, and bad diet 2—I would not say that it is always attri- butable to those circumstances, but it is very largely so, and if any germ of the fever exists those circum- stances would develope it. 16,313. Do you know in what condition our gaols are at present 2–No, except that they are free from fever. 16,314. Do you think that typhus fever never occurs in a gaol –I know that the gaols are free from it. 16,315. And I suppose you know that inmates of gaols are most subject to typhus fever when in their haunts in towns —Yes, but inmates of gaols are well fed and well clothed, and well looked after as regards water and other necessaries of life. 16,316. Are you aware that until Howard took up the question and examined and reported upon gaols, and pointed public attention towards them, gaols in this country were the very hotbeds of putrid typhus fever ?—Yes. 16,317. And that so bad was it at one time that the judge, the counsel, and the jury were all smitten by the pestilence which was brought in by the prisoners who were placed at the bar at the great black assizes? —Yes, I am quite aware of that from reading books about it. - 16,318. If typhus fever has been entirely removed from gaols, do you think that it might be removed from a town population ?—I think that it might be removed to an enormous extent, far more than it is now; I would not say entirely. 16,319. If you can remove it to an enormous extent, why are you to stop short of entire removal 2–That is a question which I cannot answer. 16,320. If you are called into a case of typhus, what kind of place do you generally go into to see it —Unless the disease has been taken by communica- tion from one person to another, I am generally called into a place where the people are ill fed, ill clothed, over-crowded, and dirty. 16,321. And those medical men who call it dirt fever do not very much misname it 2–I do not think that they do. 16,322. Is it true that typhus fever is more fatal between the ages of 20 and 40 than in the cases of younger or older persons?—I should say that it is. 16,323. And that if it seizes an adult he has a very bad chance of recovering from it 2–Yes, his chances are worse than those of a younger person. 16,324. Is it liable to leave ill effects behind it, supposing that a man's constitution will pull him through the crisis itself?—Yes, there is no doubt of it. 16,325. If you have cases of typhus fever in a town from foul air and filth which is allowed to accumulate, and if the head of the family is taken away, what becomes of the widow and the children if they are very poor?—In the greater proportion of cases they are thrown upon the township. 16,326. They become paupers?—Yes. 16,327. And if they are once pauperized, is it not most probable that they will remain so —Yes. 16,328. That the poor woman and her children are put into a hopeless state 2–Yes. 16,329. If it could be shown that any house, or any set of houses for a series of years had turned out typhus cases, that the head of the family had died, and that the family had been taken away to the parish to be maintained by the parish, do you think that, as a matter of pounds shillings and pence, it would have been true economy to have prevented that state of things by removing the conditions which caused the typhus?–Most undoubtedly it would. 16,330. Do you think that a parish may have directly and indirectly paid many times over the worth of such a house?—Yes. 16,331. If you have a family pauperized it is very difficult to calculate the money cost of that family to the community ?–Most undoubtedly. 16,332. Do you think that local boards usually con- sider their duties in that light?—I should not like to speak of other local boards except the one which I have had to do with, but there are a great many allow- ances to be made for local boards. In the first place they have to contend with the prejudices of the town in which they are living; they have to find the pounds shillings and pence which provide for the works, and therefore, however willing they are to attend to the suggestions of their medical officer, of course there are very frequently difficulties indepen- dent of that which they cannot get over, such as the high rate of assessment and other things. 16,333. There are such things in government as direct taxation and indirect taxation, are not people generally irritable under direct taxation ?—They are no doubt more so than under indirect taxation, 16,334. The rate of the local board levied for local improvements is direct taxation ?—Yes. 16,335. But there is another species of direct taxa- tion, the amount of which is accumulated indirectly, namely the poor rate, which a ratepayer must as certainly pay as the sanitary rate 2–Yes. 16,336. If he is paying a large poor rate he may not see the causes which bring about that state of things, and he does not grumble at the heavy poor rate except- ing as ratepayers grumble at rates of all sorts, but if the board, wishing to improve the sanitary condition of the district, proposes to levy a sixpenny rate he is dreadfully angry with that board, although that rate might save him a shilling poor rate, besides saving an incalculable amount of human misery –That is just the case. 16,337. Then do not you think that the ratepayer wants to be educated into a true knowledge'ſ the facts ------- RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 475 concerning him?—I am sure that he does, particularly as regards sanitary matters. 16,338. And these pollutions?-Yes. - 16,339. My colleague, Mr. Harrison, says that it would be an incalculable advantage, both for the present and for the future, to Castleford if the ratepayers as well as the local board could see what the place would gain from wise and judicious expenditures at the present time —Yes. 16,340. And that Castleford may suffer from some- thing very much more oppressive than mere money rates; that wisely to expend rates upon preventive works is the truest economy —There is no doubt about it. There is one thing I should like to mention, viz. the returns as regards fever. A - 16,341. Have you prepared any returns with regard to fever in Castleford 2–I have. I make a report to the local board once in every 12 months, and some- times oftener, and I have brought with me a copy of my last report made about six months ago. 16,342. Then you are prepared to lay before the Commissioners returns as to fever?—Yes. The death rate of Castleford last year was 16 in 1,000; it has been as high as 22 and 23 in 1,000, but it has gone ºn gradually declining. There were only 16 adult deaths in the six months from all causes. The improvements of the local board have tended to diminish the pauperism amongst the poor population who were able to work, and the result was that not so many women and chil- dren were thrown upon the poor rates in the last three years as in the previous three years. 16,343. If you by any measures of prevention diminish the class of disease which has been termed preventible, namely, typhus, typhoids, and other fevers, and if you reduce the death rate you diminish pau- perism, and therefore you diminish the poor rate – Yes. This report was made on the 3rd May 1866. The witness delivered in the following report: “To the Chairman of the Local Board of Health, Castleford. “ DEAR SIR, “I AM glad that it is in my power to make a favor- able report of the present state of health in Castleford, and those parts of the district under the jurisdiction of the local board, and also of the improvement in the general aspect of the streets, alleys, and yards as regards cleanliness and absence of causes likely to affect the public health. “The result of my quarterly and more frequent inspec- tions leads me to the conclusion that the inhabitants are more alive than formerly to the necessity of attention to those important matters conducive to health which are under their own immediate control, such as cleanliness about their own yards and houses, the frequent empty- ing of privies and ashpits, and the avoidance of all stagnant pools of water or other deposit, &c., and to this attention on their part and the strict inspection and activity of the inspector of nuisances, I am disposed to attribute the decrease in the rate of mortality during the past year. This decrease is caused by the absence of those diseases which are called epidemic, such as scar- let fever, and is especially among the younger portion of the inhabitants of the town. It is by them that the baneful influences which affect public health are the soonest felt, and therefore by them the absence is the more readily appreciated. A reference to the mortality of the past year and former years bears me out in these remarks. “The arrangement of the privies communicating with the open ashpit is not one of the best. I do not see any means of altering this, unless the local board issue a general order by which the open ashpits are covered in or the privies constructed with a moveable trough or box which would be regularly and frequently emptied at short stated intervals by the scavengers, and the refuse taken to some depository where it could be deodorized and converted into manure. Such a plan would of course require a proper system of scavenging, but I have no doubt of its benefit in a health point of view, and I think that it would be commercially successful. “I have had good-natured complaints made to mere- specting the effluvia arising from the slaughter-houses. There is no means of obviating this and the deposit of the offal as at present by the butchers but the plan of erect- ing public slaughter-houses for the use of the butchers generally. “I find the death rate in Castleford for the past six months to be a total of 59, as follows: Infants under 2 years, 24; children from 2 years to 10 years, 6; adults under 20 years, 10; from 20 to 50 years, 3; under 80 years, 16. “There have been no deaths from scarlet fever, few from whooping cough or measles. The deaths among the children are chiefly from convulsions, teething, &c. I wish particularly to point out the fact that there are only 19 deaths from all causes between the ages of 2 years and 50. This, in a population of nearly 6,000, is a low rate of mortality. Among the 19 fever has claimed six victims, “The sanitary condition of Castleford contrasts favor- ably with that of Whitwood or Glass Houghton, and it would be satisfactory to ascertain if the decreasing mortality in the adult population of the place during the past two years has had any material influence on the pauper population, i.e., on the number of widows or children who have been thrown on the township, for in this direction the benefit of sanitary improvements ought to tend. The number of deaths from fever in Whitwood during the six months has been nine, and this, in a population of not more than two-thirds that of Castleford, shows the unhealthy character of that dis- trict. I would strongly advise the adoption of some measures conjointly by the Castleford Local Board and the ratepayers of Whitwood by which sanitary remedies could be applied to that district. It was at Whitwood where the smallpox first appeared; it is there that scarlet fever and typhus always prevail, and I am afraid that if the summer should be favorable to the spread of epidemic or contagious diseases, it will be there that the first plague spot will show itself to extend to the surrounding district of Castleford. “It is highly desirable, as a completion to any scheme of sanitary improvement, that a good supply of water should be available. This is not in existence at Castle- ford. The surface wells in use are liable to be influenced by various causes, and their supply may at any time be greatly lessened or vitiated, and then disease follows as a natural consequence of an impure article of food. I should fail in my duty if I did not direct the attention of the local board to this point. “I have to report that the lodging-houses, as a general rule, are clean and not over-crowded. “I am, dear sir, your obedient servant, (Signed) “ J. H. SIMPson, M.D., “Pontefract, May 3rd, 1866. Officer of Health.” 16,344. Have you the annual death rate for any number of years back 2–I have it for several years back. 16,345. Will you to-morrow state the death rate from the earliest period, year by year –Yes. 16,346. Is there anything further which you wish to state to the Commission ?–I should like to confirm what has been said about Whitwood, the portion ad- joining Castleford, which is not under the local board of health. Its condition as a district is quite what Mº. Heptinstall, the chairman of the local board, has stated ; it needs sanitary improvement to a very great extent. - 16,347. Do you think that they will be wise enough to take the steps which I have suggested, namely, to petition the Secretary of State to allow them to adopt the Act 2–I should almost think that they would, for it is not many months since I was present at a meet- ing at Whitwood, and I think that the general feeling then was to adopt the Act. It was before the last Diseases Act passed, and the communication from the Secretary of State was rather against their being able to adopt the Government Act. 16,348. On account of the population ?—Yes; but since that the new Diseases Act has been passed. 16,349. What is the population ?–Between 2,000 and 3,000. 16,350. I see that at the period when the report before me was made, namely, in 1850, there was a death rate of 27.4 per 1,000 —That would be before my appointment. 16,351. Have you anything further to state 2–1 would make one remark about the casual outbreaks of cholera since I have had to do with Castleford, namely, that I think that they have generally been attributed PONTEFRACT. J. H. Simpson, Esq., M.D. 30 Nov. 1866. 3 O 2 £76 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. PONTEFRACT. J. H. Simpson, Esq., M.D. 30 Nov. 1866. Mr.T.Simpson. to soakage of sewage into well-water, and I do not know that they can be attributed to the use of privies in the town. I think that they were more attributable to the liquid matter from fold-yards and other places of that sort, and to heaps of manure than to any con- veniences constructed for the use of the inhabitants. 16,352. But have you reason to believe that in some degree the cholera arose from the use of impure water? —I am sure that it did, because in one or two cases where the wells were locked up, and charcoal and lime were thrown in, the cholera ceased. 16,353. Then with regard to the water supply you think that the local board have a great responsibility resting upon them if they permit any impure water to be used for domestic purposes —Yes, if they have the power to prevent it. 16,354. Is there a difficulty in obtaining water for Castleford –A river water has been analysed, namely, the Mere, which Mr. Heptinstall has spoken of, and there my own chemical examination proved that that water was very soft, but that there were evidently traces of chemical impurities coming down the river ; it was coloured, and you could not get rid of the peculiar taste of the water, no filtration or boiling took it away; it was the exact taste of the river water ; that impurity must have been produced by soaking. 16,355. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you at all connected with Knottingley —Only as a medical man going down there and knowing the place well. 16,356. How is it off for water 2–It is only supplied by well water; and one effect of the last flood at Knot- tingley was, that the people were unable to use the wells for some little time afterwards in consequence of the impure water floating over the land and finding its way into the wells. 16,357. Then should you say that Castleford and Knottingley are two striking instances upon the river Aire of towns badly situated for obtaining water from any other source than the river itself?—I should think that both of them are in that position, they could not get water except water strongly impregnated with time. 16,358. Therefore they are deeply interested in the purification of the river Aire?—I should think so more than the towns higher up. 16,359. If the rivers Aire and Calder were effec- tually purified, would those rivers be a suitable source of supply for those two towns —I think so ; as much as they were when I first knew them ; they were then very largely used in both towns, but now they are scarcely used at all. 16,360. If those rivers were purified, do you believe that the inhabitants could not get water equally soft or equally pure from any other source in the neighbour- hood —I think not, unless they went to a very deep well. 16,361. Is Knottingley sewered 2–Yes, but the sewers are merely the old-fashioned sewers; it is not under a local board. 16,362. Is the sewage turned into the river?— Yes. 16,363. You are not medical officer to the board of Knottingley –There is no local board. I merely speak as a practitioner, knowing Knottingley and passing frequently through it. 16,364. Is there any authority in Knottingley to inspect the town and keep it clean 2–No more than there is in any other town. 16,365. There is no corporation ?—No. 16,366. There is no local body ?—No, except what may be constituted by the poor law. 16,367. Do you know what is the condition of the town as to privy accommodation and so forth 2–No. 16,368. Have you any practice in the Marshlands below 2–Not much. 16,369. Is the land opposite Knottingley subject to flooding 2–Yes, all Brotherton Marsh is. 16,370. Do you practice there —There are not any houses upon the marsh, but adjoining the marsh there are some, but that is upon high land. I do not think that they would be at all influenced in the higher lands by the effects of the floods. 16,371. Does the population below Knottingley be- come sparse ?—There is only Beal, a village below, which would be influenced by flooding, and whatever applied to Knottingley would apply to Beal in a In eaSure. The witness withdrew. Mr. THoMAs SIMPson (Castleford) examined. 16,372. (Chairman.) Where do you live 2–At Castleford. 16,373. Do you carry on any business?—I am a glass bottle manufacturer. 16,374. Where are your works situated —At the west end of the town. 16,375. Do you use the water of the river ?–No. 16,376. How many years have you been resident there 2–61 years. 16,377. For how long can you remember the con- dition of the river?—For fifty years. 16,378. In what state is it now as compared to what you remember it to have been 2–It is now very badly polluted, but fifty years ago it was clear and pure, and it was used for all domestic purposes. There was no other water then ; there were not two wells in the town then; everybody used the river water. 16,379. What number of hands do you employ — 150. 16,380. What quantity of coal do you consume in the year 2–7,850 tons. 16,381. What do you do with the ashes —They go into the byroads to fill up holes. 16,382. Not into the river ?–No. 16,383. Do you make any smoke –Yes. 16,384. Does anybody complain of it?—There are a few odd persons that do complain ; they do not derive any benefit from it, or they would not complain. 16,385. Is it possible, do you think, to carry on your business without making smoke?—I cannot say; there have been many schemes that have been brought out. 16,386. What kind of bottles do you make —Both pale and black; the body of the glass is sand and lime and chalk. 16,387. Do you use flint —No. 16,388. Where does the sand come from ?—From Lynn, in Norfolk, by a vessel. 16,389. Is it a white silicious sand 2–Both white and red. 16,390. You do not get the best quality of sand which comes from France —No, we do not get that. 16,391. What weight of glass do you make per week —One house per week, two tons a day. 16,392. How many houses have you?—Three. 16,393. How long have they been established 2– About 22 years. 16,394. If it could be shown that you could perform all your operations at less cost by the use of gas and without smoke should you object to make an altera- tion ?–No, we should be very glad; we should do what could be done. 16,395. Do you use coal or slack —Both, but more slack than coal. 16,396. What do you give a ton for the coal?—For smudge, 3s. and 3s.6d. 16,397. Do you get it laid down for 3s.6d. 2–No, there is the carriage besides that ; it will cost 6s. 16,398. What will the best coal cost laid down 2– 8s. or 9s. 16,399. Is the smudge cheap at 6s. as compared with the best coal at 8s. or 9s, P-We think so. 16,400. Are you quite sure of it?—It does not take so much money as it used to take when we used coals, We have a good draught. RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 16,401. Are you a member of the local board of Castleford 2–Yes. 16,402. Have you had to discuss with them the questions of sewerage and water supply –Yes. 16,403. What is your opinion; is there any hope of your being able to help your poor neighbours with a better supply of water –We hope so. 16,404. Have you done something in the way of sewerage 2–Yes. 16,405. Do you intend to do something more ?— Yes; we must have the sewers ventilated. 16,406. What accommodation have you provided upon your premises for your men ; any waterclosets 2 —No, privies. 16,407. What becomes of the refuse 2–We take it out on to the land. 16,408. Is it found beneficial for agricultural pur- oses 2–Yes. 16,409. Do you throw any refuse into the river ?— No. 16,410. Ought not the river to be dealt with so as to prevent the pollution that has been going on ?–It is very necessary, and it ought to be done. 16,411. Do you know that it is a common practice for people to throw solid materials into the river, such as ashes, road dirt, and foundation materials —No doubt it is so. 16,412. Is not that done in Castleford –-I think not. 16,143. You are, I suppose, a heavy ratepayer in Castleford 2–Yes. 16,414. At how much are you rated 2–Not quite 400l. per annum. 16,415. Your rates are very heavy —Yes. 16,416. Have the rates been increased since the local board came into existence?—Yes. 16,417. Do you think that the money is expended badly —No, I think they use all the economy they Call. 16,418. If you are better off for the money that is expended I suppose you think the money is well laid out —Yes, the roads are better, and road making is the most costly item. 16,419. Is the health of your townspeople better than it was 2—Yes, better than it used to be. 16,420. Are the poor rates as high as they used to be 2–I think they are higher. 16,421. (Mr. Harrison.) How many hands do you employ —150 men and boys. 16,422. How many families would they represent in the town, or how many women and children are depen- dent upon them —I do not know ; some of them have large families and some small ones, and they have a few apprentices. 16.423. Your works probably add to the population of Castleford 1,000 persons —Not so much as that. 16,424. What other works are there in Castleford besides yours?—Plenty more glass works. 16,425. What number of hands do you suppose are employed —There are 23 glass houses. I have only three. 16,426. What number of hands would they employ altogether ?–Three houses will average 220 men and boys. 16,427. Has the glass trade risen in Castleford within the last twenty years ?—The last thirty years. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM HUNT (Castleford) examined. 16,428. (Chairman.) Do you reside in Castleford * —Yes, I have lived there the last two years. 16,429. (Mr. Harrison.) In what business are you engaged in Castleford —I am a manufacturing chemist. 16,430. What description of chemicals do you manu- facture ?—I make sulphuric acid, sulphate of soda, muriatic acid, and chloride of lime. 16,431. Are you an alkali manufacturer?—I am just now beginning to make alkali for the glass works. 16,432. The glass manufacture has caused you to make alkali ?—Yes. 16,433. Where do you get your salts from ?—From Droitwich at present. 16,434. What quantity do you use in the year – At present in this locality I use about 30 tons a week. 16,435. And that at the commencement of the trade 2 —Yes. 16,436. (Professor Way.) Do you condense the muriatic acid –Yes. 16,437. Within the provisions of the law —Yes, I must do that. 16,438. Within five per cent. -Less than that. 16,439. What becomes of that acid when it is con- densed ?–I use it with manganese to produce chlorine for bleaching powder. 16,440. Is it all made into bleaching powder —I sell occasionally a little muriatic acid. 16,441. (Chairman.) Does Dr. Angus Smith visit you occasionally –Yes, he was there last Friday. 16,442. How often does he come?—I cannot say; he is there sometimes when I am not there ; he comes in just when he likes. 16,443. He does not give you any notice when he comes f—No. 16,444. Has he an inspector under him —It is not Dr. Angus Smith himself who comes ; it is one of his inspectors; he has been there once. 16,445. Is the inspector who visits you the inspector for the district 2–Yes. 16,446. Dr. Angus Smith visited your works when you first began —Yes. 16,447. Does the same gentleman come always 2– I have never seen any other. 16,448. Has he any apparatus to test what passes from your premises 2–Yes. 16,449. Is it under lock and key P-Yes, in a par- ticular place ; we never touch it ; he comes there and has access to it without saying anything to anyone, and is able to ascertain the state of things going on by going into the stack. 16,450. Does it indicate what is going on *—Yes ; I have used the machine perhaps three times in the course of the time it has been up, not more ; I have access to one myself. 16,451. Do you sell hydrochloric acid –Yes, I sell some. - 16,452. What quantity of hydrochloric acid pro- duced in this country is converted into chloride of lime ; it it all converted, or only half?—More than half. I should think that three-fourths of it are con- verted into chloride of lime. 16,453. Is any of it thrown away in the river ?—I think not, it is too valuable for that. 16,454. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you not aware that a large quantity passes from alkali works on the Tyne into the river ?—I was not aware of that. 16,455. (Professor Way.) At what price can you supply hydrochloric acid –I am selling it now at 1s. 6d. a hundredweight, delivered on to the rails. 16,456. That is 30s. a ton P-Yes. 16,457. It is to be had sometimes cheaper than that ?—I have sold it at 1s. a hundredweight, and sometimes less than that. 16,458. You do not throw any portion of the hydro- chloric acid into the stream —No, I cannot afford to do that. 16,459. Do you make sulphate of soda, the salt cake, into soda —I have just begun to make it into white ash. - 16,460. Soda ash —Yes; I have to make sulphuric acid in order to make sulphate of soda. 16,461. There is no discharge from the chamber of any kind?—No. I have a condensing tower attached to each chamber, and after the fumes have passed PONTEFRACT. Mr. T. Simpson. 30 Nov. 1866. Mr. W. Hunt. - 3 O 3 478 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. PONTEFRACT. Mr. W. Hunt. 30 Nov. 1866. Mr. W. Wilson. through this small condensing tower all the gases go together into another large tower. 16,462. Do you pump the acid up to meet those gases 2–No, I have not done that of late ; I find that I get such perfect condensation that I do not force the chambers. 16,463. There is nothing going up them?—Nothing that is condensable ; there may be azote or something of that sort. 16,464. You put acids up in the first instance to stop something that was likely to pass up the cham- bers ?—Yes. 16,465. You now think that nothing goes up because the process is so perfect, and therefore acids are not wanted ?–In the first condensing tower we get a little, but not at the other, at the large one. 16,466. Is there any form in which you at all pollute the river?—I send the muriate of manganese into the river, the chloride. 16,467. Is it not too valuable for that ?—I have not turned it to any account. 16,468. Does it not precipitate sewage 2–Yes, but it is too bulky; people prefer chloride of lime. 16,469. In towns 2–Yes. 16,470. Have you sold any of it at any time 2—Not in this locality; I have sold some little in Staffordshire for steel making. 16,471. For the purpose of introducing the manga- nese into iron 2–Yes. 16,472. Do you make very large quantities of that chloride of manganese ?—Yes, in Staffordshire; not here. 16,473. Can you sell it at a low price?—Yes. 16,474. Is it a strong solution ?—It will be about 40 and 12. 16,475. You throw that into the river ?—Yes. 16,476. I suppose it will be quite easy to add some lime to it, and precipitate the manganese?—I have had that in contemplation of late, and I have found that glass makers use a little manganese. 16,477. If the clear solution had a little lime mixed with it you would then have oxide of manganese, and you might let the liquid from that flow off without in- jury –Yes, but it is not such an oxide as we can use for making chloride of lime; it is a sesqui-oxide. 16,478. You do not I believe consume a large quan- tity of coal —About 60 tons a week now. 16,479. Is that principally used in firing the rever- beratory furnaces?—Yes, for generating steam. 16,480. For the sulphuric chambers ?–We have an engine to force the water up to the top of the condensers. - 16,481. Have you anything further to add 2–No, except as to the watercourse that empties itself into the river within fifty yards of my works. It is a great nuisance ; it comes from the township of Whitwood, half a mile further west. 16,482. Do the people there discharge their sewage into the stream —Yes; there is a great number of cottages there and very little fall, and soapsuds and other matters lie there and generate a deal of sulphu- retted hydrogen, and the smell is very bad in summer time. 16,483. You would no doubt be glad if some measure was passed to compel them to abate that nuisance 2–Yes. The witness withdrew, Mr. WILLIAM WILsoN (Castleford) examined. 16,484. (Chairman.) Are you manager of the Castleford gasworks —No, I am engineer for them. 16,485. Do they belong to a company or to the township –A company. 16,486. How long have they been established 2–14 ear’S. 16,487. What number of retorts have you in use? —We have five clay retorts, five iron ones, and two brick ovens. 16,488. What volume of gas do you make per annum ?—About 6,000,000 of cubic feet. 16,489. What price do you charge 2–5s. per 1,000 cubic feet. 16,490. What do you pay for coals —About 10s. a ton. 16,491. What weight of coal do you use in a year? —About 900 tons. 16,492. How much coke do you make?—Something like 12 cwt. to a ton of coals. 16,493. What do you get for your coke 2–10s. a ton. 16,494. What do you get for the gas tar?—We sell it as a whole ; we make about 5l. a year for the tar, and for the ammoniacal liquor something like 8l. or 9/. 16,495. What do you purify the gas with ?—Dry lime. 16,496. Have you any difficulty in getting rid of it? —No ; we sell it at 1s. 6d. a load. . 16,497. What do you do with the ashes you make —They are carted away. 16,498. Is there any form of pollution that passes from your premises into any stream 2–Not anything, nor has there ever been. 16,499. Then gas, you would say, may be made without rendering any river impure ?—Yes. 16,500. If the operations in any gasworks are so carried on as to pollute a stream, do you think there would be any hardship in restraining the parties from doing so —No ; I should say there was bad manage- ment if they did so. 16,501. What number of men do you employ — Five in winter and three in summer. 16,502. Are your works near the river ?—Yes, they are close on the banks. 16,503. How long can you remember the place?—I have been in business in Castleford for 34 years. My first establishment was close by the river side. 16,504. In what condition is the river now com- pared with what it was then –It is very different from what it was then. I fished in it for many an hour 30 years since. - 16,505. Do you ever see any indication of refuse from gasworks coming down the river?—No, I have not noticed that ; I think we have none near us that pollute the river. 16,506. Do you suffer from a deficient water supply —Yes, we have had plenty of water in the town ; but recently the sinking of a coalpit near us has taken the well water away. - 16,507. Are you a member of the local board 2– Yes. 16,508. Have you discussed with them the pro- priety of getting a better supply of water 2–Yes, and the local board have engaged me to find a supply. Castleford is just in the midst of a coal field, and it is difficult to get a supply, however we found some water at a place about a mile from Castleford, but it was somewhat too hard, and we then turned to the old river. We found from analysis that it was not suitable, and we are now in hopes of getting water from another source, a colliery pit; the sinking of it drained our wells, but they are now pumping 800 gallons per minute, and we think that water will be very suitable for us. 16,509. If it does turn out to be suitable will the local board secure a supply for the use of the people?— My instructions are to set about getting it immediately; we are now testing the quality of it, and if it is found to be sufficient in quantity we shall have its quality tested more accurately, and if it proves of such a quality as will be suitable we shall certainly use it. We have a situation for a reservoir to pump the water into, and from that reservoir there is a sufficient fall into the to Wn. - 16,510. Are there any observations which you wish to make, or any facts you desire to state bearing upon this inquiry 2–I believe that the local board, although it is not for me to say so, are very wishful to do every- thing they can to improve the health of the town. In RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 479 reference to a question put by Mr. Harrison to our chairman as to preventing the flowing back from Castleford to Knottingley, I may state that that is the first dam below Castleford, and it has a very little fall indeed. Before our local board was established we had Mr. Babbage to make a survey here, and his first idea was to carry down the sewage to Knottingley. I went with him over the district, but when he had been over it he abandoned that idea altogether, and he said that he could not get fall enough for the sewers to empty themselves. With regard to the system of sewerage which we have now we had an inspector down from London to examine the plan before it was carried out. 16,511. Is not a considerable part of the town situated on rising ground —Yes, a part of it. 16,512. The part where the town is being extended is on high ground 2–Yes. 16,513. Your town is a rapidly increasing one, is it not –Yes. 16,514. From all that higher ground there would be no difficulty in carrying the sewage on to the land below:—We might carry it from the higher part of the town on to the land below. 16,515. In carrying out your system of sewerage would it not be well to keep that point in view and lay out the sewers so that the sewage from all the houses that are likely to be built in the upper parts of the town might be carried down and used to irrigate the land below —Yes, and it shall not be forgotten. I am indebted to Mr. Hunt for an analysis of the water I have spoken of, which I will hand in (handing in the same). 16,516. (Professor Way.) The water that you spoke of before, and which was analysed by Mr. Newsome, came from an old mine —Yes." 16,517. You know that that is very alkaline?—Yes, and we have abandoned that water. The witness withdrew. Adjourned till to-morrow at 11 o'clock. Pontefract, Saturday, 1st December 1866. PRESENT : ROBERT RAWLINSON, Esq., C.B., IN THE CHAIR. John THoRNHILL HARRISON, Esq. Professor John THOMAS WAY. Mr. John CARTER (Knottingley) examined. 16,518. (Chairman.) What are you?—I am a brewer at Knottingley. 16,519. You carry on your business at that place —Yes. 16,520. Are your works situated near the river ?— Near the canal, 16,521. Where do you obtain your water –From a well of our own. 16,522. What class of water is it 2–It comes from the magnesian limestone in our neighbourhood ; it is hard. 16,523. What volume of water do you use in a week or a month —I cannot say. 16,524. You pump it 2–Yes. 16,525. How long have the works been established P —For 60 years. 16,526. What quantity of beer do you brew in a year 2–I cannot say. 16,527. Is it a large or a small quantity ?—It is a large one. 16,528. Do you brew pale and bitter beer —Yes. 16,529. For the foreign market 2—No. 16,530. Is your hard water better suited for pale beer than a softer water —We do not find any very great difference. 16,531. I believe Burton water is hard 2–Yes; it was supposed by many people that Burton water was always taken from the river, but that is wrong; the brewers there have wells of their own. 16,532. Are their wells in the same stratification that yours are in 2–No, I think not ; I think their wells are more in gravel. 16,533. With regard to the water you use in wash- ing out casks, and other waste water, what becomes of that 2–It goes into the canal. 16,534. Has that been objected to at any time 2– Never ; upon that part of the canal where the water goes into the Aire and Calder they have never made any objection to it. 16,535. How many men do you employ?–23 or 24. 16,536. What becomes of the sewage from your premises; have you aspits and middens ?—Yes; the sewage does not go near the canal. 16,537. I may assume that you do not pollute the stream —Not at all, except by the water from the washing of the casks, which goes into the canal. 16,538. And the canal people do not find fault with it 2–Never. 16,539. Have any of your neighbours found fault with it 2–Never. 16,540. Have you any other remarks to make 2– Simply this : I think that the reservoir near to Ponte- fract has ruined the nice stream that used to flow down into the river. I often perceive, in driving up in very hot weather, a stench from the reservoir. 16,541. That is a sewage tank, is it not *—Yes. 16,542. Which the Pontefract people have made : —Yes. 16,543. You think, if they wish to do their duty to themselves and their neighbours, they might find some other method of removing the sewage than putting it into that tank 2–Decidedly. 16,544. Have you no such tank connected with your premises?–No. 16,545. (Mr. Harrison.) The liquid sewage after passing from the tank goes into the canal, and is then conveyed through Knottingley —Yes. 16,546. Where do the people of Knottingley obtain water for domestic purposes —Many of them obtain it from the canal. 16,547. Do you think that that is a desirable state of things?—By no means. 16,548. Could you dispose of your refuse otherwise than by passing it into the canal?—No, we could not ; it is impossible. 16,549. Could you filter it?—I do not know whe- ther we could do that or not. PONTEFRACT. Mr. W. Wilson. 30 Nov. 1866. Mr. J. Carter, 1 Dec. 1866. 3 O 4 480 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. PONTEFRACT. M. J. Carter. 1 Dec. 1866, R.Moaon, Esq., J.P. 16,550. It is not any large volume of water, is it? —Yes. 16,551. How many gallons do you use in a day – Many hundred gallons; I cannot speak to the quantity exactly. 16,552. After ail, when the waste liquid goes out of the brewery into the canal, it is merely discoloured water; there is no kind of refuse in it, is there 7–No. 16,553. It was stated yesterday that at the brewery near this place there was some kind of refuse which was very objectionable?—Yes; I understand that they throw in refuse hops, and sometimes grains; they can be sold for manure. We never let them go into the canal. 16,554. (Chairman.) I suppose hops become putrid and stink —Yes, but they are generally led away from the place at once; we sell them to a farmer, he takes them away every three or four days if they are objectionable. There is nothing that goes into the canal from our premises except the washings of which I have spoken The witness withdrew. RICHARD Moxon, Esq., J.P. (Pontefract), examined. 16,555. (Chairman.) Where do you live?—At Pontefract. 16,556. Are you engaged in any business P-I am in the malting trade. 16,557. Do you use much water –A good deal; we use the town's water, and we pump a large quantity from a spring of our own coming from the limestone. 16,558. Where does the waste water go to ?—The waste water from the malting premises, after the barley has been steeped, runs into the town sewer and goes down to the tank. 16,559. How many men do you employ —From 50 to 60 at least. 16,560. Have you privy accommodation on the premises —Yes. - 16,561. Does the refuse go into the sewers?—No, we have ashpits behind, and the refuse is carted on to land by ourselves. 16,562. Is there any waste of any kind from your premises that goes into the stream besides what you have mentioned —Nothing but from the maltings ; the water rather smells, and is objectionable in the spring, but it has been found to be rather an advantage to the sewers, as the large rush of water has sometimes tended to cleanse them. 16,563. If that water, after the malt has been steeped in it, could be put on to land by way of irrigation would that be beneficial, do you think —No doubt it would be highly beneficial; perhaps no town in England affords such a fall for carrying sewage or refuse away as Pontefract. 16,564. You think that if the Pontefract people were to put their shoulders to the wheel, and to look about them and do what they could, they might find ground to put the refuse on —Yes, no doubt of it; I have been in the corporation more than 20 years and am also one of the Street Commissioners. The diffi- culty is that there are two governing bodies; there are iG members of the corporation and about 32 of the Street Commissioners, and the one body clashes against the other. I have tried as hard as I can, but you can get no permanent improvement made except by com- pulsory means. 16,565. Do you know that if two-thirds of your number would vote for the adoption of the Local Government Act it might be put in force 3–Yes; and I have brought that subject before the corporation, and if I could have carried it I would never have left the corporation; it would have been a great blessing. 16,566. There is a divided responsibility; the Street Commissioners have jurisdiction in one way, and the corporation is supposed to have jurisdiction in another way?—Yes, and they pull contrary to each other; we can get no drainage carried out. The only drain that there is I got constructed, but there is no shaft to it. 16,567. The Street Commissioners who have charge of the pavements and the sewering and other improve- ments are not amenable to the ratepayers ?-No, they are not amenable; they do not produce any account to the ratepayers; they do not show any accounts to the inhabitants how the money is expended. Supposing it happened that a set of idiots being owners of pro- perty were elected, you could not turn them out of office; whatever mistakes they might make you could not bring them to book. 16,568. If the ratepayers of Pontefract, who have the matter in their own hands, would elect into the council men pledged to bring in the Local Govern- ment Act, the commissioners must go out 2–They will not elect any men into office who are desirous of making any improvements; if they are disposed to spend any money they must not go into office. Can- didates may make flowery speeches, but if they attempt to effect any public improvement they will never get in. I have always recommended that the area of the borough should be extended, and then the ratepayers would be able to appoint and pay a competent sur- veyor. Until that is done, they have no power except to appoint a few old women to hospitals; there are 16 members of the corporation, and I do not believe there is a worse paved town in England than this is. Although I am the largest ratepayer I cannot compel them to pave the streets, but I do not intend to pay any more unless they pave the streets. I am willing to pay anything if they pave the streets and drain them. 16,569. (Mr. Harrison.) It appears that in Ponte- fract the death rate is 26 in 1,000, whereas that of the adjoining town of Castleford is only about 16 2– I believe that if Pontefract was properly attended to in water supply and drainage there would not be a healthier town in the United Kingdom, with such a fall as it has. In my house I have adopted a method of flushing. I have a large cistern, and I let the water out and flush the drainage. If that was done in the town, or the sewage was carried away, it would be greatly better; the new drain at a cost of 1100l. has really done more harm than good; the stench from it is unbearable. - 16,570. Do not you think that the corporation and the commissioners, in dealing with the money collected in the town, should seriously consider the question of the health of the inhabitants?—Yes, most seriously; we wish that the Government would send down a commissioner to report and inquire upon the matter, and say, If you will not do what is necessary we will compel you, for what can one individual do in the matter? 16,571. We sincerely hope that the ratepayers will take the whole matter into their consideration, looking at what has been done elsewhere, and remembering that neglect is most expensive in the end, and that divided government is not only inconvenient and cumbersome but inefficient —I quite agree, sir, with every word you have spoken. I was turned out because it was found I was in favour of getting a better supply of water. We are suffering from a great hard- ship, for, in addition to the pollution that we make ourselves, we have all the drainage of Tanshelf emptying itself into the watercourse. The witness withdrew. RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 481 JAMEs HoRATIO SIMPson, Esq., M.D., further examined. 16,572. (Chairman.) You wish, I believe, to add something to your evidence?—Yes; you asked me to give you a return, if I could, of the number of deaths from 1860 to this time. I cannot give it you for the whole number of the months, but I can give it you for nine months in each of the following years, from 1860 to 1865. I can also give you the number of adults who died of fever, and it will appear that there has been a diminution. 16,573. As improvements have been carried out you find that the fever death-rate has diminished – Yes. In 1860 I do not know the number of adults that died from fever; in 1861 the number of adults who died from fever was 7 out of 88 ; in 1862 the number of deaths in nine months was 89, and that of ºr ºf deaths from fever of adults 9 ; in 1863 in nine months the deaths were 78, there being 4 adults who died from fever ; in 1864 in six months there were 54 deaths, and 3 adults died from fever; in 1865 in six months there were 57 deaths, and 3 adults died from fever—by adults I mean persons between the ages of 18 and 50. The cases of fever are generally at the part of Castleford adjacent to the township of Whit- wood, where no sanitary measures are adopted. I may also state that the population of Castleford as well as of Whitwood has increased by more than one-third in the six years of which I have given you the death- rate. The witness withdrew. GEORGE PAUL ATKINSON, Esq., M.R.C.S. (Pontefract), examined. 16,574. (Chairman.) Are you in practice in Ponte- fract 7–Yes. 16,575. How long have you practised here 3–In this neighbourhood nearly 25 years. 16,576. What is the state of public health now as compared with what it has been within the period of your recollection ?—I am of opinion that fever and epidemic diseases have decidedly increased upon us. 16,577. They have been increasing for some years past, and you have carried out, or rather the commis- sioners have carried out, what they consider to be an improvement in main sewerage, at an expense of some hundreds of pounds, but not with any beneficial effect, is that so?—I must be understood not to express myself as to Pontefract merely, as I have only resided here for seven or eight years. I have also resided in the immediate neighbourhood, close to the boundary of the borough. 16,578. As to Pontefract, do you know anything of its special conditions —I believe there are many con- ditions which contribute to the heavy death-rate of Pontefract. 16,579. What are those conditions —There are social conditions which tell as well as ordinary causes, like neglect of sewerage. 16,580. What are those social conditions?—I think there is an excess of intemperance. 16,581. Do you think that bad cottage accommo- dation and bad sanitary arrangements at home have anything indirectly to do in compelling men to resort to public-houses —I do think that the alleys of this place are very narrow and confined. It is an old built town, and there are many houses on a small space. 16,582. Crowded together —Yes. 16,583. If they have privy accommodation of any kind, is it situated close to the dwelling house P-I am sorry to say that the accommodation is very variable; in some of the old parts of the town it is deficient; but I am speaking now more particularly of old alleys which constitute the old part of the town. 16,584. Have you any remarks to offer to the Com- mission, from your experience in these matters, as to sewerage or outfalls — My opinion is that the state of the sewerage is not so perfect as it might be. I think that offences have been frequent in the course of the sewerage, and likewise down at the outfall tank. 16,585. Has it occurred to you that any other system would tend to get rid of these nuisances?— Yes. I have been of opinion that it was desirable to adopt some definite system of disinfection of the sewers in order to counteract and destroy the offensive and injurious gases which prevail there. 16,586. Are you aware that if sewage could be passed away fresh, day by day, and could be placed on land for agricultural uses, it never would be offen- sive?—I am aware that land acts as a deodorizer of sewage. 16,587. Are you aware that the effete matter of to- 17159.-2, day is not corrupted to the same extent as it would become this day month –Certainly. 16,588. That is a self-evident fact?—Yes. 16,589. If the effete matter of an individual would become corrupt and foul by keeping, it is clear that the effete matter of a town, if kept by any arrange- ment, as in these sewers and tanks, until putridity sets in, would become a mass of corruption and be offensive and dangerous 2–Yes, certainly. 16,590. Then if it were possible to deal with that matter daily as it is produced, and thereby to prevent decomposition, you would get rid of that form of injury —Certainly, and that is my object. 16,591. When you say disinfection, do you mean disinfecting by chemicals —Yes. 16,592. But chemicals cost money?—Yes; they do. 16,593. You have an amount of mischief set up, and you propose to attempt to remedy that by using chemical disinfectants 2–Yes. 16,594. If you caused the material to be used before putridity was set up, you would require no chemicals. I mean if the material was put on the land 2–No : but at present we are not in a condition to do that. 16,595. Would it not be worth the while of the Street Commissioners to rent two or three acres of land and relet it with the condition that the farmer should apply the sewage daily to it *—I should not object to utilizing sewage on land, on the contrary I have always approved of it; but I speak with reference to the present state of things, and I argue that the present state of things is one fraught with considerable danger. 16,596. And expense —Yes, certainly. But I look at things as they exist this year and will exist next year, and I argue from that that something is really called for, and that something I believe to be a system of disinfection, as the only means that we have to meet the difficulty. 16,597. That is for immediate purposes 2–Yes, or until some different system can be adopted. 16,598. I suppose it would be within the province of the commissioners to use disinfectants?—I appre- hend it would. 16,599. And not the corporation ?—I am not able to say. There is a sanitary committee and an inspector of nuisances. 16,600. But they are not empowered to construct sewers, are they –I believe not. 16,601. That falls to the commissioners to attend to 7–Yes. 16,602. And the commissioners are not amenable to the ratepayers ?—I believe not. 16,603. They are not elected by them —No. 16,604. The ratepayers choose to be governed by men whom they have no control over and cannot direct in any way ?—Yes. 16,605. They can neither elect them nor turn them out 2–No. 16,606. If the Local Government Act was put in 3 P PONTEFRACT. H. Simpson, Esq., M.D. 1 Dec. 1866. G. P. Atkinson, Esq.,M.R.C.S. 482 RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. PONTEFRACT. G. P. Atkinson, Esq.,M.R.C.S. 1 Dec. 1866. force all the officers might be elected by the rate- payers?—Yes. 16,607. One-third of them must go out every year, and appeal to the ratepayers again for re-election, so that the whole local government of the place would be regulated by direct appeal to the ratepayers, year after year?—Yes." 16,608. Your government goes on without any appeal at all to the ratepayers?—Yes, and I am sorry for it. I wish to say, in connexion with the suggestion I have made, that I believe one of the most powerful means of relieving the present foul conditions of rivers would be to employ a system of disinfection habitually, because the deposit as it would reach the rivers would be ac- companied by the disinfectant, and so long as the pre- sent system prevails of pouring the sewage into rivers I hold that an offensive and injurious deposit will take place there, and ought to be disinfected by some means H. Muscroft, Esq., L.R.C.P. tents entered into the drains of the town. until a better system is provided. 16,609. But it would be one of the most costly and inefficient methods that could be adopted. In Leam- ington they put up at great cost tanks to receive their sewage, and they were indicted for a nuisance below ; they used disinfectants to the extent of 31 sterling, day by day, but they were still liable to prosecution, and the nuisance was not abated 2–Probably they attempted to convert the refuse into manure. 16,610. No ; they simply attempted to make the effluent water from the tanks innoxious. In Chelten- ham they used the most powerful disinfectants, with a like result 2–I do not doubt the benefit of applying sewage to land, but I think if sewage was conveyed to the rivers disinfected the result would be what I nave mentioned. 16,611. The land is the only true disinfectant 2–I think it will be a very long time before that plan is adopted, because improvements go on so slowly. 16,612. Have you anything further to add 2–Yes. ſ have observed a deposit in the water in this town; the water I think would be improved by filtration. 16,613. But that water is drawn from a well, is it not ?–Yes, but there is a deposit frequently. 16,614. Of what character is that deposit 2–It is a mineral deposit. 16,615. Is it in the shape of carbonate of lime 2– It is principally lime. 16,616. Does that deposit take place when the water is exposed to the open air —Yes, and sometimes it is considerable. tº ſº). Sººl 16,617. (Professor Way.) Is the water clear?—No, it is not perfectly clear. º. sº-ºo-º-º: 16,618. You mean that there is a sediment?—Yes, 16,619. Not in chemical solution Pi—No. ºn tº 16,620. (Chairman.) That is a matter to be dealt with by the persons supplying the water?—Yes. I should have been happy to have added something, but I will not detain the Commissioners any longer. 16,621. Be good enough to give us any information that you wish to lay before us?—I have here a copy of a letter from a surgeon in Keswick, and of disinfec- tion he says that when small-pox prevailed to a great extent, he succeeded entirely by the use of disin- fectants in abating the epidemic. 16,622. What is the name of the surgeon?—Dr. Leitch. I do not wish people to rely upon disinfectants, but I think they are valuable agents, especially during the prevalence of epidemics, and hitherto I believe the public have not had a tithe of the benefit they ‘might have had from their use ; it is too often for- gotten that in removing night soil without previous disinfection most injurious gases are liberated, and these frequently play an important part in the pro- duction of epidemics. --- 16,623. Where you have no other means of removing filth 2–Yes. 16,624. If you had a dirty floor you might make it less injurious to your health by sprinkling lime over it, but a brush and a mop and water would answer the purpose a great deal better, remove the dirt and you would not require a disinfectant. 16,625. (Mr. Harrison.) I presume you consider that prevention is better than cure?—Certainly; that is the whole ground of my advocating disinfectants; they are means of prevention. 16,626. If you prevented disease by a thorough system of sewerage, and by applying the sewage to land, which you can do here with facility, you would nave no occasion to seek for a remedy to the disease ? —When you can succeed in carrying that system out I admit it will be the very best thing; but I do not think that it will be done until it is enforced. The witness withdrew, The following note was added by the witness to his evidence:— I think it would be a great blessing to the people here if the Government were to order an independent and rigid inquiry into all the causes of the present very high rate of mortality, as there appears to be no prospect of the matter being properly attended to without such an inquiry take place. HENRY MUSCRoRT, Esq., L.R.C.P., of London (Pontefract), examined. 16,627. (Chairman.) I believe you are a surgeon practising in Pontefract?—Yes. 16,628. Are you the sanitary medical officer of the town 2–Yes. 16,629. Appointed by the corporation?—Yes. 16,630. Can you tell us what the death rate in Pontefract has been for some years past?—The death rate at Pontefract for the last five years, calculating from the 1st of August in one year to the 31st July in the next year has been, between 1861 and 1862, 14.8 per 1,000; between 1862 and 1863, 17.09; between 1863 and 1864, 23:38; between 1864 and 1865, 24.67; and between 1865 and 1866, 29.1. 16,631. That shows a very rapidly increasing death rate in the borough of Pontefract –It does. 16,632. Is that in the municipal borough 2–Yes; it includes Pontefract, Tanshelf, and Monk Hill. 16,633. How do you account for that strikingly increasing death rate in the borough of Pontefract?— In a great measure by the imperfection of our sewerage arrangements and deficiency of water supply. Seven or eight years ago, when the modern improvement of waterclosets was more generally adopted, their con- Now we bave an extremely small supply of water, and the consequence is that in dry weather all the drains of the town are little better than cesspools. There is a very imperfect system of trapping, and the wind, when it is in a certain direction, causes a stench to arl Se. 16,634. When was the sewerage carried out?—I think in the year 1854, before I was in practice here. 16,635. The water supply was obtained some years º that, was it not *—I believe shortly before that. 16,636. In what year was the water company established?—About 14 years ago. 16,637. Then the so-called improvements up to this time you consider have really been no improvements at all, but the contrary?–Yes. 16,638. To those so-called improvements being badly carried out you attribute the increasing death rate in Pontefract?—I do not say that they are the sole cause, but at all events they are one cause. - 16,639. What other causes are there?—The death rate of last year, 29 per 1,000, appears to be a very high one, but little more than a year ago the union was established here, and so a number of old people were brought in from the country, and those old people dying, as they naturally would do, have rather in- RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 483. creased our death rate, but only in the proportion that I have calculated it. I find that last year out of 181 deaths eight were those of persons who had come to the town a few months before, but still the death rate is a remarkably high rate. 16,640. Did you hear what was said by the last witness as to the difficulty arising from their being two authorities in the town, and as to the advisability of having one responsible and concentrated authority ? —Yes. 16,641. Does that alteration strike you as being necessary 2–Yes, very necessary, I may say almost absolutely so. 16,642. Otherwise I suppose you will go on as here- tofore, and instead of improving the health of the town you will be rather increasing the death rate *-Yes; the death rate in five years has almost doubled. 16,643. Are you in practice in Knottingley —No, I am not ; I have very little practice there. 16,644. You are aware, I presume, that the sewage of Pontefract passes now into the canal –Yes, at Ferry Bridge. 16,645. And that the inhabitants of Knottingley use that water for domestic purposes 2–Yes, they do. 16,646. Is not that a very objectionable state of things?–Yes, very reprehensible. 16,647. In both ways, as a duty to their neighbours and to themselves, it appears incumbent upon the in- habitants of Pontefract to take some steps to remedy the mischiefs which exist, does it not ?---Yes, it does. 16,648. Is there any other point that you wish to mention?—I may mention that the water, from an analysis we have made this week, appears to contain nitrates. It is possible that this may arise from some imperfection in the construction of the pipes, because, when samples of the same water sent by me direct from the springs have been analyzed, a more favourable account has been given. Analysis, however, has not been made for salts of ammonia, and if any exist in the water at the spring, their complete oxidation, (i.e., conversion into nitrates) may take place in the pipes under the influence of the air held in sollution, and perhaps even more especially by the recognized action of iron upon such oxidizable states of organic matter. The water is taken from a spring about half a mile off, in Tanshelf. 16,649. There are some wells in the town, I believe 2 —Yes, private wells. 16,650. Have you known in any case the water in those wells to be objectionable?—Yes; it has been decidedly impure near the mill dam at the other end of the town ; it is very impure at certain times of the year—in summer. 16,651. When that is the case do you take any steps to prevent that water being used ?–We have done so in this particular case, when we noticed its bad con- dition. I do not know that any special steps were taken. You must know that the water supply for Pontefract is the town's water ; there are very few private wells; this is an exceptional case. 16,652. (Professor Way.) The well is about 45 feet deep, is it not ?—I believe it is 50 feet deep. 16,653. It is not impossible, is it, that drainage from cesspools might get into it?—It is a porous soil, that is the only chance. I may say that we are in the midst of inquiry upon this subject. It was only three days ago that I knew of the fact I have just mentioned. I was astonished to hear that the water was so impure. When the water is taken directly from the springs before it comes into the town the same analyser tells me that it is comparatively free from nitrates. 16,654. There may be some leakage into the well ? —Yes, there may be. The witness withdrew, Mr. WILLIAM BRookE (Water Fryston) examined. 16,655. (Mr. Harrison.) Do you reside in this neighbourhood —Yes, at Water Fryston. 16,656. Do you farm land in that neighbourhood P —Yes, 300 acres of land, under Lord Houghton. 16,657. Does any of that land join the river Aire? —Yes, a good portion of it. 16,658. What may be the value of the best part of that land 2–3!. an acre is the rent for it. 16,659. Do the cattle upon that land drink the water of the river ?—Yes. 16,660. Is that the only water which they can obtain –Yes. 16,661. What may be the produce of that land annually per acre to you as a farmer grazing it with cattle?—We reckon that it will feed at the rate of a bullock an acre. 16,662. And that bullock during the 12 months will give you a return of how many pounds upon the average 2–It depends upon circumstances, but per- haps 4/. 16,663. We have had it mentioned to us that a short distance below Leeds the water of the Aire is not suitable for cattle to drink, and that in fact they will not drink it. Supposing the water of the Aire to be reduced to that condition adjoining your land so that cattle could not drink it, to what extent would the value of that land be reduced to you as a farmer ?—I should say that if cattle would not drink the water the land would only be worth 2l, an acre instead of 3!, an acre, because we should be forced to pasture it with sheep, but the sort of grass which grows there is not proper for sheep ; it is too coarse for them, and they would not do so well upon it as bullocks would if the bullocks got plenty of good water. 16,664. Do you find that that grass is suitable for cattle after a flood, such as has just occurred 2–I do not think that the flood will do any harm. 16,665. Does it improve the grass —Yes; next summer the land will get dried, and the grass will spring through the surface, and I fancy that the land will grow a better crop. 16,666. Do you find it necessary to be cautious after such a flood as this in turning the cattle in the spring on to such grass as that ?–Yes. 16,667. Does it produce irritation and scouring in cattle *-Yes; we let them go into the meadow for a short time and then take them out. 16,668. Have you observed ill effects of that kind increasing of late years -No, I cannot say that I have. 16,669. Are there many people residing within your district at or near the river Aire 2–There are a few cottages. 16,670. Where do the inhabitants of those houses get their supply of water –From the river. 16,671. And they drink that water –Yes. 16,672. Do you consider that it is suitable for drink- ing purposes —They can get no other; they put it in pots and pans and let it remain for two or three days to settle, and then they drink it. 16,673. After it has settled is the water discoloured 2 —It is not perfectly clear, but it is pretty well clear. 16,674. And they are obliged to drink it?—They have nothing else. 16,675. If the river goes on being polluted in the same degree as it has been, do you think that they will be able to go on drinking the water of it 2–I do not know ; they drink it at present. 16,676. How many acres of the 300 which you occupy were covered with water in the last flood?— Perhaps about 50. 16,677. Have you any notion of the area of land which has been flooded by the late flood between Castleford and the junction of the Aire with the Ouse 2 —No. , - 16,678. What height was the water upon your land? —In some places it was two yards deep. 16,679. How much would that be over the bank PONTEFRACT. H. Muscroft, Esq., L.R.C.P. 1 Dec. 1866. - Mr. W. Brooke. 3 P 2 484 RIVERS COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. PONTEFRACT. Mr. W. Brooke, I Dec. 1866. Mr. W. Worfolk. which exists between your land and the river ?—I should think that it would be one yard above the bank. 16,680. Then do you think that by raising that bank four feet higher the flooding of your land might have been prevented –In ordinary floods the bank which we have would turn the water, but that was not the case in the last flood. 16,681. If the bank were raised about four or five feet higher than it is now would it prevent the flooding of that land?–It might, but the water got to such a height this time that no ordinary bank could withstand it. 16,682. Would it be an advantage to your land if there were a bank high enough to prevent floods, and if means were provided at the same time to let the water pass from the river over your land, under control, for the purpose of irrigating it —You could not do it. If we had to raise our bank it would throw the water to the other side of the river. 16,683. It must be raised on both sides if it is raised on either ?–Yes; on one side we have a bank, but on the other side they have none. 16,684. Are they more subject to flooding than you are 2–Yes. 16,685. Do you find the floods come down more or less frequently than they used to do —We have not had any flood of importance for some time except the recent flood. 16,686. Do you find any disagreeable smells from the river in a hot summer, such as the summers of 1864 and 1865 —Yes, the river is very offensive in hot weather. 16,687. It causes discomfort. Do you know any case of its causing ill health —I cannot say. The witness withdrew. Mr. WILLIAM Worfolk (Knottingley) examined. 16,688. (Chairman.) Where do you reside —At Knottingley. 16,689. What business do you carry on ?—Ship- building. 16,690. How long have you resided there 2–With the exception of about two years ever since 1824. 16,691. You have known the river, then, since that period, more or less *—I have known it all my life. 16,692. Upon what river are you situated —The Aire and Calder. 16,693. Is it worse now than when you first knew it 2–Considerably. 16,694. Is it offensive to your business in summer ? ––Not to my business. 16,695. I mean to your workmen individually — It is not injurious to our working, because a vessel will swim in muddy water. 16,696. Is it offensive to your nose – I cannot say that it is, but it is not fit for domestic use. 16,697. Used it to be so *-Yes, perfectly. 16,698. Up to what time did you use it for domestic purposes?—They use it now. 16,699. Bad as it is 7–Yes. 16,700. Does it ever affect the people in any inju- rious way ?—We are very often afflicted with diarrhoea and cholera. In 1832 Knottingley was probably one of the worst punished places in the kingdom, and in 1848 or 1849 we had the cholera, but not so bad as in 1832. 16,701. Have you had any cases of it this summer ? —We have had several cases. 16,702. Do the drains from Pontefract annoy you ? —They run into the stream the same as all other foul water. 16,703. Into the Goole canal 2–Yes ; formerly the drain from Pontefract went under the Goole canal with a culvert and emptied itself into the old river; but perhaps 30 years since, or before then, the culvert blew up, and since then it has emptied itself into the Goole canal. 16,704. The culvert has never been restored —It has never been restored. 16,705. What is the population of Knottingley — I cannot speak to the exact number, but it is nearly 5,000. 16,706. You have adopted the Local Government Act, have you not *—We have done so. We adopted it about four years since, but we have never carried it out. 16,707. You have not appointed a local board — No ; that was the only thing in which we were deficient. 16,708. You have adopted it to keep the Highway Act from coming in 2–Yes; I have always been of opinion that the Local Government Act would be a beneficial thing for us, and I have stood it but to a great extent. 16,709. But you have never appointed a surveyor, nor elected a local board, nor done anything *-We have done nothing whatever. It has cost me a good sum of money to try to carry the Act out, but some of our gentlemen have another and a selfish motive. They calculated that the effect of the Local Government Act would be that the land, and the navigation, and the railway would be able to claim a reduction of three-fourths of the highway rates; they therefore considered that they would be losing by the Local Government Act, and in the very last session of Par- liament they succeeded in getting a clause put into a bill to rescind the adoption of the Local Government Act. 16,710. So that you are now without it?—Yes. 16,711. It just fenced off the adoption of the High- way Act 2–Yes. 16,712. You therefore adopted the Local Govern- ment Act, but have done nothing since under it 2– Just so. 16,713. (Mr. Harrison.) Are you not now liable to be included in the Highway Act 2–Decidedly. 16,714. So that you have had all your trouble for nothing —Yes, and rather worse. My opinion is still that no government would be so good for us as the Local Government Act. With regard to the Pontefract drainage, when they made the main sewer they made some cesspools, but those cesspools are now of no use, for this reason, they are, I believe, full of sediment, and they have not been cleaned out for two or three years, and therefore the whole of the sediment of Pon- tefract comes down in the water to Knottingley. 16,715. (Chairman.) They choose to retain this refuse here until it stinks and sets up a putrid action and becomes a worse nuisance, whereas if they had no cesspool at all and let you get it day by day you would only have the whole of it as you have now, but you would have it much less offensively 2–Just so. 16,716. Do you think that there is any chance of the people in this locality learning good practical common sense —I think not. I think that they will learn selfishness. 16,717. What is to become of them if they will not learn that neglect produces disease, and destroys the working man's life. I suppose you know that the health of a working man is his property —Of course. 16,718. And that in order to keep that which is his property in the best possible state for earning his livelihood he must have the means of health 2–Yes. 16,719. And that if he is compelled to drink dirty water, to breathe foul air, and to suffer other incon- veniences, he goes prematurely to his grave, and perhaps his wife and his children become paupers, if they do not die also 2–Of course. In my opinion the water of the river ought if possible to be prohibited for domestic use. 16,720. You think that the Government should step in in some way or other to protect people from their own folly?—I think that people should make an effort to do it themselves. 16,721. And you think that there should be some power to prevent the people using the river in its RIVERS COMMISSION:—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 485 present polluted form and to find them better water 2 —Of course; many of our inhabitants have no pumps or wells, but fetch the water from the river and canal for every purpose for which they require it. Origin- ally the river water was considered the best water which was to be had. I have known some old people go half a mile for the river water to make tea with, as it was good soft water; but now, if a vessel lies in our canal for a fortnight or three weeks I can scrape slime off it, slime completely full of little red worms, and if you put a rope into the water and let it remain for two or three weeks you can strike the stuff off, the stuff is all alive. Thirty years since I could see, on a fine summer's day, thousands of fish on the top of the water in certain places, but we now scarcely ever see a fish; I would also observe that the banks of the river are too low. We have been tremendously flooded by the last flood. Our gasworks have been flooded to the extent of seven or eight feet deep, and we were seven nights in darkness for want of gas. 16,722. Do you think that the last flood was as great as any flood which you remember 2–It was rather larger. 16,723. Have you any bench marks of former floods about your place —Yes, within a short distance of the place where I reside. 16,724. How high did the last flood rise in vertical height from the summer level?—It depends upon the part of the town where you take the measurement; the water rises a good deal more below the dam than above the dam ; about midway between the two dams I should think that the water would have risen about 12 feet. 16,725. Then the persons who gave us evidence at the commencement of our inquiry that the floods were less now than they used to oe, and that they never expected to have any more floods, have been very much deceived 2–I believe that this last flood has been about three inches higher than any man ever knew a flood here before. 16,726. Have you any record in your premises of a flood which took place in 1775?–We have no record of it; you are alluding to the Leeds bridge. There seems to have been such a flood. We learn that that flood occurred at the breaking up of a frost, and the bridge archways were blocked up with ice, which accounts for the water flowing so much higher above the bridge than it did below the bridge at that time. 16,727. The waterway was blocked up with ice, and therefore the height of the water at the bridge is no test of the actual height of the flood?—No test at all. 16,728. And this last flood you think may even have been higher than the flood in 1775 was 2–1 believe that it has been so in most parts. 16,729. You are aware that it has done a great deal of damage on the banks of the river and on the river itself all the way up?—Yes, 16,730. To the extent of many thousands of pounds 2 —I can only judge of it by what I read; it has floated vessels into fields. 16,731. Where has that been the case ?—About Bottomboat ; some vessels have been floated a con- siderable distance, and some just over the bank. 16,732. How much water will your lighters draw 2 —About two to three feet. 16,733. Then even a loaded vessel would have gone over ?–No. 16,734. It would have knocked down the bank 2 —Yes. 16,735. If you had had a vessel of 100 tons with 30 or 40 tons in her, do you think that one of those river banks would have stopped her ?—I think so, they are a good width. 16,736. They are abcut a yard wide on the top — Yes, but they have a good bottom. At Bottomboat I believe that eight or ten vessels have floated into a field. 16,737. The people had to put ways under them and to launch them back again –Yes. I should think that we have had from 100 to 200 houses at our place all flooded, and during the inundation the people had to be supplied with their necessaries, coals or bread or water, by boat; we had to boat about and to see who was in want. 16,738. That was also the case in Leeds 2—Yes, but it was carried on with us for some days. 16,739. When did the flood rise to its greatest height with you ?–On the Saturday afternoon, the 17th of November. 16,740. At what time P-I should think that it was at its highest about 1 or 2 o'clock; it fell a little towards night, and then it rose again. 16,741. Did it rise to its original height —Not quite, but very nearly so. 16,742. Did it rain very heavily with you?— Tremendously. 16,743. For how long 2–The whole of the Friday. 16,744. It began on the Thursday night 2–Yes, and it rained right away to some time on the Friday night. 16,745. Did it rain on the Saturday?—I think not. 16,746. Have you ever floods rising with you when you have no rain at all P-Yes. 16,747. The water comes down from the upper hills and you have fine weather ?–Yes. 16,748. What height will those floods rise —They will rise to various heights; they will sometimes rise within a few inches of what the recent flood has been when we have had no rain. 16,749. Is there anything which you wish to add to your evidence —In our place we are greatly punished in respect of drainage ; we have no proper drains at all; there is scarcely a drain in the town where you can get a shovel to clean it out. 16,750. I suppose that you have discussed that subject with the parties there and that they will not do the work —No. We have a surveyor for one year, and at the end of the year we change him and have some one else, and he says, “I must be as careful of “ the money as I can, and show as good an account as “ my predecessor.” The witness withdrew. Adjourned sine die. Subsequently to the inquiry at Pontefract the Commissioners received the following letter : To the Royal Commissioners for inquiring into the best means of remedying the Pollution of Rivers, 2, Victoria Street, Westminster, S.W. Ledsham Vicarage, South Milford, Yorkshire, December 4th, 1866. GENTLEMEN, IN the porch of the parish church of Ferry Fryston, situate about 200 yards from the bed of the river Aire, there is an old chisel mark, showing the height which the water reached in the great flood of the year 1775. From the character of the figures, and the tradition that confirms them, there is every reason to believe that this mark was made at the time of the overflow, which it commemorates. As it is generally supposed that this is the highest flood hitherto known in the valley of the Aire, it is a matter of much interest to compare the height of the water then with that which it reached on the disastrous 17th of last November, I therefore measured the difference between PONTEFRACT, Mr. W. Worfolk. 1 Dec. 1866. -- 3 P 3 486 RIVERS COMMISSION :-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, the old water mark of 1775 and the line which the recent flood has left recorded unmistakeably on the whitewash of the porch, and the result is that the flood of 1866 was 6% inches higher than that of 1775. I noticed a peculiar slimy deposit on the flagged causeway leading to Ferry- Bridge which emitted a nauseaus smell, and required to be scraped off before it could be got rid of . I was informed that the water had risen 11 feet 6 inches during the course of Friday and Saturday the 16th and 17th of November. As the valley is wide at this point, there could not be a fairer place for measuring the intensity of a flood, the main characteristics of which appear to have been the suddenness with which it rose, and the rapidity with which it subsided. My parish (Ledsham) is I cannot say washed, but pol. luted by two or three miles of this once beautiful stream, from which the cattle in the heat of summer have been seen to turn away with loathing, and from which every descrip- tion of fish has gradually disappeared. In former times, they used to be found in quantities on the meadows when the water had subsided, but I cannot ascertain that one single fish has been seen after the deluge we have just experienced. Apart from the smell which it emits, the colour of the water is enough to set both man and beast againstit. The river, in fact in its present state, is good for nothing but a boundary fence, and highway for barges. It contains hardly sewage enough for tillage, and consider- ably too much for any other purpose. It seems not a little hard, that we, who have no participation in the profits arising from its pollution, should have our river rendered thus useless and unpleasant. You will indeed confer a great boon upon us if you can do anything towards restor- ing it to that primitive state of purity which made it a favourite resort of salmon, and according to the old” dis- tich insured the cleanliness of those Castleford damsels, who have now to avail themselves of a cheap train to Scar- borough to perform even an annual ablution. Your obedient servant, (Signed) JAMEs J. B. LANDoN, M.A., Vicar of Ledsham, Yorkshire. * “Castleford lasses must needs be fair, For they wash both in Calder and Aire.” Or, according to the more elegant version of Lord Houghton, “Castleford lasses must needs be fair, Washed in the Calder and bathed in the Aire.” N.B.-Fair, it should be here observed, has no reference to the per- sonal attractions of the ladies in question, but merely means clean, in the way we use the term when we speak of a “fair linen cloth.” -- " - -*. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- -- - - --- -- - IND EX. [Numbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence: when the reference is made to the numbers as used the - second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] A. ABBEY, Mr. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 3104*–210*. AIRE, see Bradford, Castleford, Leeds, Pontefract, Skipton. Course of 5770, Table No. II.--Weirs on, 5770 Table No. III. ; 10,231 Table No. 5. Volume of 5770 Table No. V. ; 57.14.—Area of Valley, 5770 Table No. IV.-Population of valley 5770, Table No. VI. : 10,231 Tables Nos. 1, 2, 3. AIRE DALE DRAINAGE : Has done harm ; the shortening the course of the river causes precipitation of floods on the lower parts, 5515- 5517, 5558–5565, 13,314–13,322; has done good; lowered surface water; improved value of land; im- proved health, 5770; Paper No. 1; 5717–5730, 5746–7, 14,898–14,903, 15,037–15,052, 15,134–15,141, 15,156– 15,163, 15,173–15,179, 15,928–15,930; has not in- jured mill power 5748-5754. Scheme having been imperfectly carried out has done partly good, partly harm, 15,260-15271, 15,283–15294; has improved land above Kilderwick, has injured land below junction of the Worth, 13,284–13,291. AIRE AND CALDER NAvigATIon Co.: Witnesses examined; Mr. Bartholomew, engineer, 7300– 7468; Mr. Wilkinson, agent, 16,121–16,199 : Mr. Wilson, secretary, 7468–7505; Mr. Oates, 3354–3467. Also 61–63, 110, 2090–2093, 7386–7392, 7475–7476. Length and course of navigation, 7338; its tolls not falling off, 713–715. Do not look after banks of river, 691.2. Dredge the bed, see evidence of Mr. Holmes, 735–830; Mr. G. Smith, 1222–1334; Mr. Oates, 3354-3467. TABLEs 7467–7468; possess and exer. cise statutory powers to prevent solid refuse bein thrown into stream, 1326–1334, 1871–1878, 2060, 6890, 7485; but these powers are only to protect mayigation, not to prevent pollution, 2060, 7477; and, being limited to navigation channel, do not extend to becks or tributaries, 2066–7, 7328–7332, 7477–8. AKRoy D, Col., M.P. (of Halifax): Evidence of 11,145–11,254. ALEXANDER, Dr. (of Halifax): Evidence of 12,413–12,455. ANDERTON, Mr. F. (of Bradford): Evidence of, 10,262–10,322. ARMITAGE, Mr. S. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 3675–807. ARNoTT, Mr. J. (of Leeds): Evidence of 8579–629. As HEs: Proportion of from coal, 46.38–4641, 4821–2, 6884. Enormous reduction of, by proper consumption of smoke, 12,190. Useful for roads, 3124* and passim ; useful, when ground, as a substitute for sand in the making of cement, 2936*, 4514,4731–4736. Carted away, 1350, 1638, 1858–1860, 1878–9, 3127–8, 3813–4, 4164–6, 4376–7, 4514, 4726, 5270–1, 6799, 6889, 71.92, 7647–52, 7870–1, 8038–42, 8519–20, 9140–4,9296, 99.24-6, 10,288–92, 10,380–2, 10,513–9, 11,009–18, 11, 155–50, 11,224–6, 11,368–71, 11,604–6, 11,728–30, 11,832–4, 11,903–6, 12,090–3, 12,136–9, 12,201–2, 12,345, 12,352–3, 12,618–20, 12,965–9, 13,530–41, 14,339–40, 14,458, 14,486–8, 14,557–61, 14,818–9, 15,496–501, 15,974–6, 16,380–2. Expense of removing, 1878–83, 6801, 6900–1, 8041, 11,018, 13,5379, 14,134, 14,155–60, 14,340. Tipped into streams, 756–7, 1249–50, 1294, 1324–34, 2381, 3016*, 3210*, TABLE, 3399%–3401*, 3523–7, 4303–4, 4575, 4613, 4823, 5017, 5501–4, 12,671–4, 12,682, 12,687-701, 12,746–7, 12,793–6, 12,802, 12,874–5, 13,632–8, 14,127–34. Effect of ashes tipped into streams. The bed is raised, 693, 3366–92, 3197*–8, 3203*, 3302*, 3406*, 3529–31, 4386, 4520, 4549, 4616–7, 4942, 5422 Paper, 5736–9,8641–8, 11,265, 12,802–4, 12,898–901, 12,942, 13,156, 13,467–8, 13,515–22, 13,541–6, 13,619, 13,690, 13,736, 13,827, 13,832, 13,898–909, 14,056–7, 14,122, 14,148–51, 14,515, 15,933. Banks become irregular, 3123*, 4942. Floods are caused or increased, 3048*, 3204*, 3303*, 3537–40, 5422 Paper, 12028–31, 12,634, 13,547–9, 13,599–614. Navigation is impeded, 1334. Drains are backed up, 13,157–8, 13,599–614, 13,627, 13,814–9, 13,833–7, 13,923–40. Water-power is de- creased, 11,942, 12,602–16, 14,099–100. Secus, the raising of the bed is due not to ashes, but to moun- tain débris, 12,987–8, 14,160, 14,167, but see 13,159. The throwing in of, prohibited under the Aire and Cal- der Navigation Acts: 1326–34, 1871–8, 2060, 6890, 7485; but the prohibition applies only to navigation channels, not to becks, 2066–7, 7328–32, 7477–8. Legislature should prohibit throwing of ashes into an running stream, 3391–2, 30.19%, 3528, 6893–8, 9302, 10,519–23, 11,092, 11,455, 11,710, 12,117, 12,622–3. As H-PITs, see Privies. ATKINson, Mr. (of Pontefract) Evidence of, 16,574–626. AUTY, Mr. E. (Messrs. J. Howgate and Sons, of Mirfield) : Evidence of 2585–675. B. BAILEY, Mr. (of Skipton): Evidence of, 15,065–89. BAM Ford, Mr. (of Todmorden): Evidence of, 13,046–92. BARKER, Mr. J. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 1335–444. BARTHoloMEw, Mr. (of Leeds, Engineer to Aire and Calder Navigation): Evidence of 7300–468. BATEs, Mr. J. (of Dewsbury): Evidence of, 2824–99. BATLEY, see evidence of chairman of local board, 2363– 2481; of late surveyor and inspector of nuisances, 2312–62; of Mr. Marriott, cotton merchant, 2482– 560. Population, 2368. Rateable value, 2398. Area, 2430. Sewerage partial, 2316. Sewers not ventilated, 2324–6. Sewage passes into beck, 2316–21; 2387. Ashpits, 2328–38. BEAUMoRT, Mr. (of Elland): Evidence of, 12,580–95. BEHRENs, Mr. (of Bradford): Statistics put in by, 10,808-9. BINGLEY, see Evidence of Mr. Dryden, Improvement Com- missioner, 13,452–522; of Mr. Sugden, worsted spinner, 14,516–596. Population 13,454; rateable value 14,350; local government 13,453–62; sewage of, goes into Aire, 13,471, 14,352–4, 14,364; waterclosets exceptional, 13,475–8; Water Supply, 14,348. BLAckBURN, Mr. (of Brighouse): Letter from, 5422. BLAMIREs Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of, 10,232–61. Booth, Mr. (of Halifax): Evidence of, 13,150–294. Bowditch, Rev. Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 2199–2201. BRAcken, Mr. (of Luddenden): Evidence of 12,249–90. --- 3 P 4 488 RIVERS COMMISSION:—INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. [Numbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence: when the reference is made to the numbers as used the second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] BRADFord : Witnesses examined: The Mayor 8630–58. President of Chamber of Commerce, 10,435-639. Town clerk, 8728–827. Borough engineer, 8828–9109, 9913-5. Manager of gasworks, 9350–462. Mr. Jeffery, solicitor to the prosecutors of Canal Com- pany, 9684–709. Mumford, solicitor to Bradford Canal Company, 10,640–54. Crowther, lessee of Bradford canal, 10,653–10,708. Constable, solicitor to Mr. Stansfield, owner of Esholt Hall, 9617–83. Riley, gardener at Esholt Hall, 9560–616. Holmes, gamekeeper at Esholt Hall, 9505–59. ... Godwin, stuff merchant,8659–727. Mitchell, stuff merchant, 9463-504. , Ingham, dyer,9110–9251. Samuel Smith, dyer,9252–349, 10,709–749. Sutcliffe, mill-owner, 9916–81. F. W. Anderton, worsted spinner, 10,262–322. , Illingworth, spinner, 10,373–434. ., J. W. Leather, civil engineer, 9982–10,231. Blamires, soap manufacturer, 10,232–61. Thompson, soap manufacturer, 9768-862. Hamilton, grease manufacturer, 10,323–72. Salmond, soap manufacturer, 10,750–94. , Slee, tanner, 9710-67. Leather, vitriol maker, 9862–912. , France, accountant, 10,795-808. Area 8832–3, 8906. Rateable value, 8746, 8835–6. Population, 8664, 8717, 8745, 8834. Trade, see evidence of Mr. Ripley, 10,435–654, especially 10,567–72. Local Acts, 8734–40. Water Supply, 8866–99, 8915–31, and see Water Supply. Gas- works, 9350–462. Sewerage 8859–61, 8945–64; 8972–83, and see Sewerage. Sewage passes into beck, 8654, see Sewage. Privies, 8845–56. Waterclosets, 8845. Mortality, 8965–70. Beck receives the whole sewage of town, 7296–7, 8433–5, 8654, 8912, 9668; is encroached on by buildings 8903, 8907, 8912. Canal, fed by beck and very foul; closed by an injunction, and about to be sold, 8543, 8700, 8913–5, 9226-36, and see Evidence of Mr. Crowther 10,655–708; of Mr. Mumford 10,640–54; of Mr. Jeffery, 9684– 9709. BRADLEY, Mr. W. (of Skipton): Evidence of, 14,864—922. BRADLEY, Mr. B. H. (of Skipton): Evidence of, 15, 120–204. >> BRAM LEY: Unsewered and unhealthy, 6382–9. BRAysh Aw, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of, 8630–658. BRIGHous E: Letter from Mr. Blackburn of, 13,092-3. BRIGG, Mr. (of Keighley): Evidence of, 13,981–14,108. BRook, Mr. John (of Huddersfield, registrar): Evidence of 2979*—3103.” BRooke, Mr. E. (of Huddersfield, earthenware tube manu- facturer): Evidence of 3994–4071, 4785–4815. BRooke, Mr. H. (of Huddersfield, woollen manufac- turer): Evidence of 3504–674. BRookE, Mr. T. (of Huddersfield, mill-owner): Evidence of, 4816–969. BRookE, Mr. (of Water Fryston): Evidence of, 16,655–87. Buck LEY, Mr. (of Todmorden): Evidence of, 12,656–74. BURGEss, Mr. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 4970–5003. Burr, Mr. (of Keighley): Evidence of, 13,370–451. C. CALDER, see Dewsbury, Halifar, Huddersfield, Todmorden, Wakefield. Area and population of Valley, 118–119 TABLEs : 10,231 TABLE No. 4. CALv ERT, Mr. (of Skipton.) Evidence of, 14,923–15,008, 15,295–308. CANAL, see evidence of Mr. Greenwood, Inspector of Canals at Huddersfield, 3272*–3336%; and Aire and Calder Navigation. Bradford; fed by beck, and very foul; about to be closed, as a nuisance, under an injunction, 8543,8700, 8913–5, 9226–36; and see evidence of Mr. Crowther, 10,655–708; of Mr. Mumford, 10,640–54; of Mr. Jeffery, 9684–709. Canals, holding stagnant water, supplied from the rivers, become worse than the rivers, 3268*, 3272* Paper; 3287*, 3288, 4116, S700, 8702, 8913, 10,656–82, 11,473, 11,482–3, 11,928. Canals sometimes used as Water Supply, 3322*–36*, 3556–60, 7359–66, 14,344–5. CANAL Association, Letter from, 8629–30. CARBIDE, filtration by, see evidence of Mr. Spencer, 1714–1837, 1982–2051, and Water Supply (Wakefield.) Cost of, to Leeds would be 20,000l., 5927. CAR.cAses, floating in river. See Scavenging. CARTER, Mr. (of Knottingley): Evidence of, 16,518–54. CARTER, Mr. Alderman, of Leeds, 7000–161. CASTLEFord : Witnesses examined : Dr. Simpson, Officer of Health, 16,280–371, 16,572–3. Mr. Jessop, surgeon, 16,200-32, ,, Wilkinson, agent to Aire and Calder Navigation Company, 16,121-99. ., Horn, flint grinder, 15,463–570. , Simpson, glass bottle manufacturer, 16,372–427. ,, Hunt, manufacturing chemist, 16,428–83. ,, Heptinstall, corn miller and maltster, 15,968– 16,120, 16,283–79. , Wilson, manager of gasworks, 16,484–517. Population, 15,979, 16,113–5. LocalGovernment, 15,981–4. Mortality, 16,116, 16,342, 16,350, 16573. Sewerage very partial, sewers not ventilated, 16,227–30, 16,250–3, 16,233–79; sewer mouths not protected, 16,254–8.; some sewers are open, 16,260. Sewage from sewers passes into river, 15,502–4, 15,986. Sewers are some- times back-watered by floods into cottages, 16,239–44, 16,271–9, see Sewerage, Sewage. Waterclosets, nine in number, 15,988. Privies, 16,074–9, 16,293–309. See Privies. Water Supply, 16,063–7, 16,212–7, 16,285–91, 16,343 Paper; 16,351–4, 16,357–60, and see Water Supply. Gasworks, 16,484–98. Cattle suffer from polluted water, 1282,31944–5,” 5572-9, 5584, 5621–5, 5761–6, 8259, and see evidence of Mr. Mitchell, 7665–7732. CHADwick, Dr. (of Leeds): Evidence of, 6660–776. CHAMBERs, Mr. (of Todmorden): Evidence of, 12,740–71. CHARLEsworth, Mr. (of Thornhill): Evidence of, 3041–104. CHEMICALs. See evidence of Mr. Leather, of Bradford, 98.62–915; of Mr. Hunt, of Castleford, 16,428–16,483; of Mr. Holliday, of Huddersfield, 3904–93; of Mr. Hick, of Wakefield, 1926–81. Used in copperas manufacture, 1926–81; in dyeworks, 9158, 11,638, 12,087, 12,340; in wireworks, 11,344; in paper manufacture, 12,057, 12,265; in tanning, 6450–1 Table. Chemical works at Leeds, 6659–60, TABLE. A nuisance to the rivers, 789–90, 1273–6, 3923–9, 6601–7, 11,950–6; should be excluded from the rivers, Letter of Canal Association, 8629-30. CHILD, Mr. (of Halifax) Evidence of, 11,825–95. CHILDE, Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 1690–714. Chole RA in Wakefield, 31, 2141, 2146, 2156-67, 2171-89, 2199–201; at Castleford, 16,351–354. RIVERS COMMISSION:—INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. 489 [Numbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence: when the reference is made to the numbers as used the second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] CLARKE, Mr. (of Skipton): Evidence of 15,309–33. CLAy, Mr. D. (of Sowerby Bridge): Evidence of, 12,196–12,248. CLAY, Mr. (of Rastrick): Evidence of 11,720–11,824. Clough, Mr. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 5319–86, 5401–2. CLough, Mr. (of Keighley): Evidence of, 14,365–454. Cocks hott, Mr. W. (of Keighley): Evidence of, 13,615–677. Cocoa-Nut FIBRE MANUFACTURE. See evidence of Mr. Perkin, 1544–1616; a pollution to the Calder at Wake- field, 103–5, 472–4, 2149; one firm restrained by in- junction, 543–4 Paper. CoLEMAN, Mr. (of Pontefract): Evidence of, 15,571–15,633. CoLLIERIES : - Sometimes furnish Water Supply, 10,471-6; sometimes diminish it, 16,508. Ochrey water from, see Ochrey. CoLNE, River. See 3210–1 TABLE, and generally evidence taken at Huddersfield, 29.19%–5422. CoNservancy, River : Necessary, to prevent pollution, 2063-4, 1490; to prevent casting in of solids, 7493, 12,018, 12,512, 12,622–3, 13,324, 13,640; to prevent encroachments, 5422 Paper, 14,779, 12,712–3; to establish protection against floodings, 12,757, 12,865–70, 12,989, 13,032. There must be local boards to maintain a local super- vision, 5088–92, 4954–5, 8799, 3575–6, 4256-9. There must be a central authority to see that local boards do their duty to those situated lower down on the river; its jurisdiction must extend over entire length of river, and over tributaries as well as main stream, in short, over watershed, 2081, 2754, 2914, 3575–6, 4256–9, 6941, 8649–52, 11,866, 11,245–51. Suggestions for constitution of local board: a. The Board of Health, or ordinary local government, 5401. 8. A board consisting of persons most interested, as manufacturers, managers of water companies, borough surveyors, &c., to be elected in district, 4221–2, 4954–5, 5088–92, 5112, 5387–5400; or nominated by magistrates. 7. An independent power appointed by central govern- ment, 67–9, 1490, 2064, 2086–9, 2119–23, 2969, 4695–700, 5506–9, 5568, 10,111–12, 13,331–3, 15,253–9, 15,730, 15,735–49. - Suggestions for constitution of central authority: a. A board consisting of persons most interested, elected from the whole watershed, 4, 10,929–44, 10,985–91. 8. A department of supreme government, 3575–6, 11,245–51. y. Inspectors (like Factory Act Inspectors) appointed by supreme government, and independent there- fore of local board, 2477, 2971, 4281, 4954–5, 5093, 5391, 8799, 13,330–6, Letter 13,092–3. Assistance should be given by magistrates, 2081, 4264, 13,337–48; by borough and county police, 2074–7, 2105–6, 2478–9, 13,337–48, 14,064–7. Any persons interested should have power to prosecute, and punish- ment should extend to persons causing offence to be done, 8629–30 Letter. Manufacturers, members of local boards, ought not to vote on matters in which they are interested, 5401. Provisions of Highway Act might be imitated, 5411. Expense of, to be borne by county rate, 2107-9, 3372*–4, 3761, 4969; to be made on Poor Law valuation, and to be collected by overseers of poor when they collect the poor rate, 10,968–71, 12,757–62, 12,781–5, 12,865, 12,890–3, 13,325–8. See Legislation. CoNsTABLE, Mr. (of Otley): Evidence of, 9617–83. Cooper, Mr. (of Fartown, Huddersfield): Evidence of, 4750-84. 17159.-2, CoPPERAs (Manufacture): Wakefield, 1926–81. Cotton (Manufacture): see Evidence of Mr. Sidgwick, of Skipton, 14,667–724; of Mr. Marriott, 2482–2560. CRAven, Mr. C. (of Keighley): Evidence of, 13,728–820. CRAvºn, Mr. Joseph (of Keighley): Evidence of, 13,093–149. CRoNHELM, Mr. (of Halifax): Evidence of, 11,896–985. - CRos LAND, Mr. (of Lockwood): Evidence of, 4500–64. CRoss LEY, Mr. (of Halifax): Evidence of, 12,083–124. CRoss LEY, Mr. (of Halifax): Evidence of, 10,992–11,144. CRowTHER, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of, 10,655–708. see Evidence of Mr. Hick, of CRowTHER, Mr. (of Lockwood): Evidence of, 4565–4705. CRUTch LEY, Mr. (of Wakefield) Evidence of, 1096–1151. D. DARwiN, Mr. (of Otley): Evidence of, 5580–5625. DEBRIs : From mountains, chokes the streams, 3271*–2* Paper; 3318", 12,699; how to beintercepted, 5731–34, 12,814–7, 12,908–10, 12,978, 15,164—9, 15,272–6. DENT, Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 1838–1925. DEw HURST, Mr. (of Skipton): Evidence of, 14,800–63. DEwsBURY: Witnesses examined: Mayor, 2676–2823. Borough Surveyor, 2202-60, Inspectors of Nuisances, 2261-2311. Mr. Ridgway, 2561–84. , Bates, 2824–99. ,, Alderman Tweedale, 2900–18. ,, Maddison, 2930–3040. Population, 2204–5. Area, 2222. Trade, 2206. Sewer- age, 2208–21, see Sewerage. Sewage of sewers passes into rivers, 2209, see Sewage. Water Supply, 2223–7, 2250–2, see Water Supply. Privies, 2243–5, 2253–6, 2287–94, see Privies. Slaughterhouses 2302–11. DIBB, Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 146–51, Dixon, Mr. (of Keighley): Evidence of, 14,597–662. DRAINAGE: Its effect on health, volume of river, and value of land, 10,218–31 and see Aire Dale Drainage. DREDGING : See evidence of Mr. Bartholomew, engineer to Aire and Calder Navigation, 7300–468; of Mr. Holmes, 735–830; of Mr. G. Smith, 1222–334; of Mr. Oates, 3354–467; of Mr. Wilkinson, 16,121-99. Increasing extent and cost of, 740–7, 763–5, 1224–43, 1253, 7318–33, 7348. 7467–8 Tables; material dredged up, not sand but ashes and filth, 1249–50, 1294, 3220–2, 3293, 3393– 3410, 16,174–6, 16,189. Occasionally done by manu- facturers for themselves, 6928–31. DREsser, Mr. (of Headingley, Leeds): Evidence of, 8080–231. DRYDEN, Mr. (of Bingley): Evidence of 13,452–522. 3 Q 490. RIVERS COMMISSION :--INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. [Numbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence: when the reference is made to the numbers as used the second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] DYERs: Witnesses examined : At Bradford Mr Ingham, 9110–251. ,, Ripley, 10,435–639. ,, Samuel Smith, 9252–349, 10,709–49. At Dewsbury, ,, Auty, 2585–2675. ,, Bates, 2824–99. ,, Ellis, 2676–823. ,, Wormald, 3134–257. At Halifax, ,, Clay, 11,720–824. ,, Clay, 12, 196—248. ,, Cronhelm, 11,896–985. ,, Crossley, 12,083–124. ,, Holdsworth, 11,362–493. , Ingham, 11,599–719. At Huddersfield, , Armitage, 3675–807. ,, H. Brooke, 3504–674. ,, T. Brooke, 4816–969. ,, Crowther, 4565–705. ,, Eastwood, 3379*–503. , Farrar, 4286–364. , Kenyon, 3808–903; ,, Robinson, 4365-455. , Robson, 5260–310. , Wrigley, 5004–113. At Leeds, , Alderman George, 6777–863. ., Holroyd, 7923–8079. ,, Reffitt, 8468–578. At Skipton, ,, Dewhurst, 14,800–63. At Wakefield, ,, Barker, 1335–444. ,, Dent, 1838–925. ,, Goldthorpe, 1445–543. DYEs: Kinds used, 1884–6, 2651–64, 3429*—33*. Amount used, 6789, 11,635, 12,086, 12,344, 14,825; altogether in the district perhaps 20,000 tons yearly, 10,545–52. Process of using, 435, 10,478–9, 10,711, 14,825–63. DYEING: Extent of trade. See evidence of Mr. Ripley, 10,435– 10,639. DYE WASTE, sol1D : - Is thrown into river, 2240, 2381–2, 2571–6, 2583, 6790, 7958, 9.125–9, 12,218–20; to the great injury of the bed, 793–6; might be all kept out without hard- ship to manufactures, 1868, 2503–9, 2538–9, 2625–6, 2723, 2740. Its use for land may be questionable, 2713–21, 10,493; though it is occasionally bought by farmers, 8507–10; but chipped dyewoods are easily collected and burnt under boilers, 1437, 1590, 2601–2, 2722, 30.36%, 33.97%, 5291, 8511, 11,641, 11,993–9, 12,104, 14,810–2. Rasped dyewoods may be collected with a little trouble, and, though unfit for fuel, may be made into a spoil-heap, and so burnt, 6793, 6841–3, 7974–6, 9297, 10,495–10,505, 11,099–11,106, 11,643–5, 11,760–1, 12,024–6. DYE WASTE, LIQUID : Volume of 3638–43, 4290, 4579, 4889–93, 4903, 6782, 6806–7, 6848–54, 8490–506, 9154–8, 9269–80, 12,336, and see 3210–1 Table. Amount of dye in, 11,824 Letter. Cast into stream, table 3210–1, and passim. Pollution from, see Pollution. Somewhat useful, however, as a deodorizer of sewage and other putrifying refuse, 11,701-3. Cannot be intercepted from streams, because foul water more valuable than none, 2699–700, 3171–7, 3242, 3581–3, 4240–1. Bad for purposes of irrigation, 2547, 5282–8. Secus, good for irrigation, 3567–8, 3658, 3696, 3709–41, 3769– 77, 3792, 3820, 3870, 3877–83; but possibly good, because of admixture of soap, and might be injurious if soap were previously extracted, 3786–3807; but certainly not injurious to land if run into sewers and mixed with sewage, 2820, 3807, 6830. Can with difficulty be partially purified by filtra- tion, 1430–3, 2542–6, 2630, 3743–7, 3822–3863, 10,507; also by settlement, 1900–3, 2446, 2628–9, 10,471, 10,490–2, 10,729–31, 11,183, 11,222; but settling reservoirs require space, and might become a nuisance, if the liquid waste, contained oil and soap, 2701, 2710–3. Have manufactories usually space for treatment of waste products 21438–42, 1537, 1907–12, 3.131,2,3611, 4343–7, 91.48, 9201–4,9216–24,9322–5, 11,817. Whatever treatment is possible might, in many cases, be applied to the waste of several mills in combination, 2726–8, 3467. Paper; Secus, 10,491. -- E. EAstwood, Mr. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 3379*—3503. --> ELL1s, Mr. (of Dewsbury): Evidence of, 2676–2823. ELL1son, Mr. (of Knaresboro’): Evidence of 5771–87. EMMoTT, Mr. (of Keighley): Evidence of, 13,895–974. ExcAvAtions: Thrown into river, 2934*, 3122*–3*, 4085, 4408,9, 12,323, 12.764, 12,970–1, 13,622, 13,831, 14,160; might be utilized for raising low levels, 3124*. ExcrºMENT: Used in manufactures. Pigs’ dung for cloth, 7587. Dogs’ dung for leather, 7587–8, 7597–6000. Human º for cloth and tanning, 7590, 6581–6. Urine, F. FARRAR, Mr. G. (of Honley): Evidence of, 4286-4364. FAwcETT, Mr. J. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of 2966*–78*. FENwick, Mr. T. (of Leeds): Evidence of 5706–5771. FERNside, Mr. (of Pontefract): Evidence of 15,378–15,467. FERRAND, Mr. W. (of St. Ives, Bingley): Evidence of 5481–5579, 13,295-13,396 FIELDEN, Mr. John (of Todmorden): Evidence of 12,844–870. FIELDEN, Mr. Joshua (of Todmorden): Evidence of 12,786–843. FIELDING, Mr. (of Sowerby Bridge): Evidence of 11,986–12,031. FIELDING, Mr. R. (of Todmorden): Evidence of 12,675–12,701. FILLITER, Mr. E. (of Leeds): Evidence of 5788–6084. FILTRATIon : Of water, by Carbide, see evidence of Mr. Spencer 1714–1837; Mr. Filliter, 5917–5930. Of dye * 1430–3, 2542–6, 2630, 3743–7, 3822–63, 10,507. Fish : Formerly abundant in rivers, now almost extinguished, 4, 85–6 Paper, 106–9, 119, 130, 548–51, 673–6, 718, 827–30, 1277, 2280–2, 2380, 3066–8, 3156–7, 3307–12, 3451–2, 6469, 7736–66, 8319, 13,687, 16,041–6; and see evidence of Mr. Roodhouse of Wakefield. 1067– 1095. FLAx SPINNING: - See evidence of Mr. R. Tennant, of Leeds, 6864–6999. FLooDINGs: About the same as formerly, 704, 1381; fewer and not so severe, 12, 143–5, 1256–7, 3080, 3411–7, 3261*, 4871, 7405, 10,001. Causes assigned; equalization of flow by construction of reservoirs, 3081, 3424–5, 3264*- 6*, 4871,2, 10,002, 14,012; and more rapid passing away of water in consequence of Aire Dale Drainage, 5770 Paper No. 1, 5717–30, 5745–7, 14,898–903, 15,037–52, 15,134–8, 15,156–63, 15,173–9, 15,928–30. Secus, greater than formerly, 13,263–4. Recorded heights of floods, 683–6, 770–7, 3411–21, 5755–9, 13,052–92. Particulars as to great flood of November 1866; at Wakefield, 734; at Bradford, 10,187; at Todmorden, 12,653–5, 12,702–8, 12,728–33; at Keighley, 13,301–3, 13,732–8, 13,819, 14,095–6, 14,152, 14,163, 14,358–64, 14,392–403, 14,550–5; at Castle- - F- Rivers commission :--INDEx to THE Evroence. 491 [Numbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence: when the reference is made to the numbers as used the second time, the nºmmbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] Flood INGs—cont. ford, 16,001–8, 16,137–43, 16,218–24; at Knottingley, 16,721–50. (Preventible causes of): Neglect of embankments, 3433–4, 12,712–3,12,725–7, 12,761–4, 12,780, 12,802, 12,946, 12,976. Raising of bed by casting in ashes, 693,3366–92,3197*- 8, 3203*, 3302*, 3406*, 3529–31, 4386, 4520, 4549, 4616–7, 4942, 5422 Paper, 5736–9, 8641–8, 11.265. 12,802–4, 12,898–901, 12,942, 13,156–9, 13,467–8, 13,515–22, 13,541–6, 13,619, 13,690, 13,736, 13,827, 13,832, 13,898–13,909, 14,056–7, 14,122, 14,148–51, 14,515, 15,933; by suffering accumulation of moun- tain débris, 12,987–8, 14,160, 14,167. Improper drainage, 5515–5517, 5564, 7406. But see Aire Dale Drainage. Raising of dams and cloughs, 6499–503, 12,924. Insufficient water way, 12,780. Permanent obstructions placed in waterway, 14,395, 402. Diversion of stream from proper course, 12,803. Neglect of land-owners to shut flaps of drains, 697–700, 3435–6. Careless letting out of contents of reservoirs, 13,298. Effects of, see especially evidence at Todmorden, 12,596– 13,092. On dwellings, at Todmorden, 13,014–26, 13,642–4; at Keighley, 13,923–40, 13,968–70; at Castleford, 16,220–4; at Knottingley, 16,737. On wells, 16,356. On manufactories, 1383,4, 3048*–9*, 4348–50, 12, 754–6, 12,945–7, 12,974–5, 12,991, 13,550, 13,631, 14,173–4. Gasworks at Knottingley suspended for a week, 16,721. Effect of ; on land, 3428–32, 5515, 12,702–12,708, 12,754, 13,297, 13,311; on banks, 1258–60; on bed of river, 1264–70, 12,641–5, 13,027–9, 16,157–9. Authority required to make proper provision against, 12,757, 12,865–70, 12,989, 13,032. The benefits of proper provision would be many times the value of the outlay, 12,754–6, 12,974–5, 12,991. Fowl ER, Mr. A. M. (of Leeds): Evidence of, 6172–6260. Fowl ER, Mr. Jas. (of Wakefield): Evidence of 457–544. FRANCE, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of, 10,795–10,808. FULLING : See evidence of Mr. Tattersfield, 3258–353, 3244–53. G. GARside, Mr. Alderman (of Leeds): Evidence of, 8315–8463. GAs: Managers of gasworks examined: At Bradford, Mr. Swallow, 9350–462. ,, Castleford, Mr. Wilson, 16,484–502. , Halifax, Mr. Malam, 12,534–12,579. , Huddersfield, Mr. Burgess, 4970–5003, , Keighley, Mr. Craven, 13,728–13,820. , Leeds, Mr. C. Smith, 7767–876. Mr. Arnott, 8579–629. Waste products are all saleable, none thrown into river from great gasworks. Secus at private gasworks, 3255*-9 14,569, and complaints still made against Halifax works, 11,945–9, 12,504–6. Accumulation of lime a nuisance at Leeds, 6553–62, 7773–9, 7803–7, 7833–40; at Bradford, 9364–6, 9389–92. GEorge, Mr. Alderman (of Leeds): Evidence of 6777–863. Godwin, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of 8659–727. GoLDTHoRPE, Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 1445–1543. GooDALL, Mr. T. (of Dewsbury): Evidence of, 2261–311. GoTT, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of, 8828-9109, 9913–5. GRAHAM, Captain (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 4072—4146. GRAHAM, Mr. (of Keighley): Evidence of 14,763–99. GREASE Extractors: - Witnesses examined, At Bradford, Mr. Blamires, 10,232–61. Mr. Hamilton, 10,323–72. Mr. Salmond, 10,750–94, Mr. Thompson, 9768–862. ,, Huddersfield, Mr. Seed, 5114–51. , Keighley, Mr. Townend, 14,215–63. , Wakefield, Mr. Teall, 316–456, GREASE Extraction : From waste soapsuds, l 3. 1. Process. 2. Result. - - 3. Extent of its application. 4. Causes of its limited application. . Process commenced 20 years ago; before that time the valuable grease was lost and polluted the river, 326. Process described, 320–3, 336–42, 431, 9814. Acid used as a precipitate, 5143–50; as little acid used as posible, 431, 9804–5; perhaps 15 lbs. of acid to 1,100 lbs. of water, 9795–800, 10,332–4. Two modes, one hot, which by use of steam extracts a larger quan- tity of grease in a shorter time, a patent process, 335, 5132–40; the other, the cold process, not patented, 3317. Process, if not properly attended to, may cause smell and nuisance, 404–7, 596,6578. Some manu- facturers operate on their own soapsuds, 411,4191—4, 11,060, 14,220–36; others let out their soapsuds to contractors, and usually provide premises and steam, 347, 402. In some cases the contractor collects the soapsuds of several factories into premises of his own, and there operates upon them, 334, 1531–4. The con- tractor pays either a lump annual sum, or so much for the quantity of soap used at factory or recovered as finished grease, 347, 9218, 9838–9, 10,277, 10,317, 10,405–11. Results, &c. Grease is recovered, convertible into stearine and cloth-oil worth from 18l. to 20l. per ton, 343, 394, 5120. Estimate of amount of soap used, 1356, 1511–2, 11,839, 12,101, 12,337, 14,072, 14,216, 14,471. Proportion of soap to volume of water, 11,824 Letter ; amount recovered perhaps 15 cwt. out of 12 packs of soap, each of 256 lbs., 10,351,4915–31, 9842, 9851. Lump sums paid annually by contractors to manufacturers, from a few pounds up to 900l., and in one case 3,000l., 349, 411,439–41. Proportion paid upon soap consumed varies from ºth up to Path, 4915–31, 9218, 9838–9, 9842, 9851, 10,277, 10,317, 10,405-11, and the manufacturer provides premises and steam, 347, 402. 8. A residuum, bought by farmers as (not ver valuable) manure; 344, 10,335, 10,359, 11,064–6. Y. Indigo (when used) is recovered, 380–6, 420–5. *. Effluent water is much improved, 351, 378, 429, 9804; but still dirty, 2703–4, 5051–2, 7221, 9862, 10,341-2, 10,280, 14,500–1; is not bad for irriga- tion, 14,080–90; if subsequently filtered, becomes quite clear and fit for dyeing, 14,241–50, 14,304–7. 14,313–5. Extent of application. Mr. Teall has 120 establish- ments, 352, and recovers weekly 50 tons of grease; other contractors recover 50 more, 391–2; altogether perhaps, 4,000l. worth of grease is obtained, 399. Instances where process is used, 1398, 2620, 2702, 3163, 5046–56, 2382, 7199–231, 9873, 10,275, 10,590, 11,060, 11,216, 11,381, 11,920, 12,223, 12,363, 14,218, 14,474. Causes of its limited application : «. Many firms, for the sake of small profit, will not take trouble to work process or admit strangers on the premises for the pur- pose; in very few cases, where factories are very small, the process might not pay, 354–7, 363. The soapsuds of hundreds of small factories are yet un- touched, 355–9; instances, 1454, 1509–10, 1906, 3764–6, 5273–8, 9205–13, 11,623, 11,747–8, 11,845–9, 12,102. No hardship to make process compulsory on all, at least wherever it would involve no loss, 365–7, 1402–5, 1522, 3168–9, 9214-5, 10,592–4, 14,304–5. . Profit comes only from operating upon richest part of soapsuds; Mr. Teall, when authorized to take all soapsuds, lets the thinner part pass, unoperated 3 Q 2 492 RIVERS COMMISSION:--INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. [Wumbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence: when the reference is made to the numbers as used the second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] GREAs E Extraction—cont. upon, into the river,409, 1358–9, 1394, 1402, 319.3–6, 3227, 3280–1, 3332–8, 4660, 4664, 4910, 7239–42. But the º of moderately rich soapsuds would cost nothing, and of thin soapsuds very little, 1406–8, 364, 11,848. A small tax on manufacturers would be no hardship, and be more than compensated to them by pure water, 3585–6, 6825–8, 6836–40, 6993–5, 8525–30, 9328–30, 11,131–40, 13,362. GREEN wood, Mr. E. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 3272*—33.36°. GUND1 L,L, Mr. (of Pontefract): Evidence of, 15,827–70. H. HAIGH, Mr. J. (of Honley): Evidence of, 4456–99. HALIFAx: Witnesses examined: The Mayor, Mr. Shaw, 12,331–412. Town Clerk, Mr. Norris, 10,838–991. Borough Engineer, Mr. Richardson, 11,255–82, 11,494– 598. Chairman of Sanitary Committee, Mr. Alderman Wightman, M.D., 10,809–37 Sanitary Inspector, Mr. Magson, 12,456–533. Dr. Alexander, 12,413–55. Manager of Gasworks, Mr. Malam, 12,534–79. Colonel Akroyd, M.P., 11,145–254. Mr. John Crossley, 10,992–11,144. ,, Child, worsted manufacturer, 11,825–95. ,, Holdsworth, do. 11,362–493. , Morris, do. 12,291–330. ,, Beaumont, woollen manufacturer, 12,580–12,595. ,, Clay, do. 11,720–824. , D. Clay, do. 12, 196—248. ,, Cronhelm, do. 11,896–985. ,, Rawson, do. 12,125–95. , Bracken, paper maker, 12,249–90. , Hastings, do. 12,032–82a. ,, Crossley, dyer, 12,083–124. , Ingham, dyer, 11,599-719. ,, Fielding, dyewood grinder, 11,986–12,031. ,, Smith, wire manufacturer, 11,283-361. Area, 10,841–6. Population, 10,848–50, 12,418. Local Government, 10,843. Rateable value, 10,851–2. Mortality, 10,814, 10,818, 10,824–7, 12,419, 12,435. Sewerage, 10,817, 10,843, 11,513–61 ; sewers unven- tilated, 10,832–6, 11,526–31, 11,556, and see Sewerage. Sewage passes into beck, 10,829, 10,843, 10,901–10, and see Sewage. Privies, 10,920–7, 11,596–8, 12,451–5, 12,458, and see Privies. Waterclosets, 960 in number, 10,837. Water-Supply in hands of Cor- poration and good, 10,815; See evidence of Mr. Norris, 10,853–10,900, and Water Supply. HAMERTon, Mr. (of Todmorden): Evidence of, 12,772–785. HAMILTON, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of, 10,323–72. HARE, Mr. C. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 5152–214. HART.LEY, Mr. (of Pontefract): Evidence of, 15,871–967. HATTERs LEY, Mr. (of Keighley): Evidence of, 14,109–78. HAst INGs, Mr. (of Stainland): Evidence of 12,032–82a. HEBBLE : volume, 11,495–6, 11,505, see Halifaa. HEELIs, Mr. (of Skipton): Evidence of, 14,712–24. HEPTINSTALL, Mr. (of Castleford): Evidence of, 15,968–16,120, 16,233–79. Hick, Mr. M. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 1926–81. Higgins, Mr. J. (of Leeds): Evidence of, 8232–314. HIRST, Mr. (of Leeds): Evidence of, 7877–922. Hobson, Mr. J. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 5403–22. Hoºpsworth, Mr. Alderman, (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 544–608. Hoºpsworth, Mr. W. I. (of Halifax): Evidence of, 11,362–493. HQLLIDAY, Mr. R. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 4706–49. Holmes, Mr. W. (of Wakefield): Evidence of 735–830, HolyEs, Mr. J. (of Bradford): Evidence of, 9505–59, Holroyd, Mr. (of Leeds): Evidence of, 7923–8079. Hopkinsos, Mr. J. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 4706–49. HoRN, Mr. (of Castleford): Evidence of, 15,468-570. HoRNER, Mr. (of Skipton): Evidence of, 15,090–119. HUDDERs FIELD : Wºº. examined. hairman of Improvement Commission Jr. 'Tur 29.19%–65%. p ers, Mr. Turner, ãº. to ditto, Mr. Abbey, 31.04%–211+. 'hairman to Drainage Committee, Mr. F. 2966*—78. § ee, Mr. Fawcett, Registrar of Mortality, Mr. Brook, 2979%-3103*. Inspector of Nuisances, Mr. Thornton, 32.11%–72. Manager of Gasworks, Mr. Burgess, 4970–5003. Manager of Waterworks, Mr. Hare, 51.52–214. $. Fº º : Mold Green, Mr. Mills, 531.1–8. resident of Chamber of Commer 41.47–285, 5387–400. merce, Mr. Mellor, Mr. Eastwood, dyer, 3379*–503. , Farrar, do. 4286–364. ,, Robinson. do. 4365-455. , Robson, do. 5260–310. , Armitage, woollen manufacturer, 3675–807. , Henry Brooke, do. 3504–674. , Thomas Brooke, do. 4816–969. ,, Crosland, do. 4500–64. ,, Crowther, do. 4565–705. , Kenyon, do. 3808–903. ., Wrigley, do 5004–113. ,, Jones, land surveyor, 3337*–78%. Capt. Graham, agent to Sir J. Ramsden, 4072–146. Mr. Seed, grease extractor, 5114–51. , Haigh, colliery proprietor, 4456–99. ,, Tinker, do. 5215–59. , Holliday, chemical manufacturer, 3904–93. , Brook, sanitary pipe manufacturer, 3994–407). , Hopkinson, civil engineer, 4706–49. , Cooper, labourer, 4750–84. ,, Clough, solicitor, 5319–86, 5401–2. ., Hobson, newspaper editor. 5403–22. Population, 2922*, 29014–84, 3084*. Area, 2924+. Rateable value, 2926*. Mortality, 29.30%, and se. evidence of Mr. Brook, 2979%-3010. Health and sanitary arrangements, 4118–35, and see evidence of Mr. Thornton, inspector of nuisances, 3271*–72. Sewerage, 2927*; sewers not ventilated, 3124+ 5. 3.168°–12. Sewage, .2927*-9, 3124, 3271*. privies cleansed by Commissioners, 32.20%–28. Water Su pply 356–5, 5152–214, and see Water Supply. Topography of district, 3110°–21. Trade of district, see"evid. of Mr. Mellor. 4147-285. Pollution of rivers from see Papers by Mr. Thornton, 32714–2; by Mr. Abbey, 3210*–1 2 HUNT, Mr, (of Castleford): Evidence of 16,428–83. RIVERS COMMISSION:—INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. 493 [Numbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence ; when the reference is made to the numbers as used the second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] I. ILLINGwo RTH, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of 10,373–434. INDIGo: amount used, 1363. Proportion lost in dyeing opera- tion, 1365–70. Not recoverable from spent vats, 416-8. Recoverable from soapsuds, 380–5, 419–25. INGHAM, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of 91 10–251. INGHAM, Mr. (of Halifax): Evidence of 11,599–719. J. JEFFERy, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of 9684–709. JEssop, Mr. (of Castleford): Evidence of 16,200–32. Johnson, Mr. J. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 152–282. JoMEs, Mr. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 3337*–78*. - JUBB, Mr. (of Batley): Evidence of 2363-481. K. KEIGHLEY: Witnesses examined. Chairman of Local Board, Mr. J.Craven, 13,093–149. Consulting Engineer of do. Mr. Booth, 13,150–294. Clerk to do. Mr. Burr, 13,370–451, #3,975–80. Surveyor to do. Mr. Sharp, 13,821–94. Inspector of Nuisances, Mr. Emmott, 13,895–974. Superintendent of Gasworks, Mr. Craven, 13,728–820. Mr. Ferrand, 13,295–369. , Dryden, 13,452–522. ,, Milligan, surgeon, 13,678–727. , Dixon, -> 14,597–621. Hattersley, machine-maker, 14,109–78. ,, W. Smith, do. 13.523–614. ,, Cockshott, fellmonger, 13,615–77. Brigg, worsted manufacturer, 13,981–14,108. , Clough, do. 14,365–454. , Laycock, do. 14,330–64. , Townend, do. 14,179–329. ,, Marriner, do. 14,543–515. ,, Sugden, do. 14,516–96. ,, Graham, do 14,763–99. Population, 13,094–5. Area, 13,252–60. Geological character of district, 13,269–74. Local Government, 13,374–415. Sewerage, 13,108; sewers insufficiently ventilated, 13,848–66, 14,780–7. Sewage passes into Aire, 5519–21, 13,109, 13,877–9. neglect, are cleansed by Local Board, 13,147–8, 13,870–6, 14,777–9. Water Supply, 13,110–19, 13,211–51, and see Water Supply. KENyon, Mr. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 3808–903. KNoTTINGLEY : Witnesses examined. Mr. Carter, brewer, 16,518–54. Mr. Worfolk, shipbuilder, 16,688–750. Population, 5,000, 16,705. Local Government Act, only nominally adopted, 16,361, 16,706–12. Sewerage very imperfect, 16,361. Sewage passes into river, 16,362. Water Supply, partly from wells liable to pollution, 16,356–60; partly from canal which has received Ponte- fract sewage and other pollutions, 16,545–7, 16,644–7, 16,721. Privies, in case of L. LAY.cock, Mr. (of Keighiey): Evidence of, 14,330–64. LANDoN, Rev. James J. B. (of Ledsham Vicarage, South Milford): Letter from, 16,750. LAw, as to pollution when amounting to public nuisance, difficult to put in force, 1036-45, 5681, 8770–2,10,910, 11,791–3. As topollution, which is injurious toindividual rights of property, 96.58–966; difficult to put in force, 1046-7, 9637–40, 12,013–4; invidious as setting neigh- bour against neighbour, 3024*–5*, 3671, 4088–93, 4234–6, 12,624–5, 13,36), 15,722–3; unsatisfactory, as giving vested rights to individuals to pollute the river, whilst others are doing their best to keep it clean, 11,086, 14,311–3; and see Litigation. LEAD MINEs : Pollution from, 8144–77. LEATHER, Mr. G. H. (of Bradford): Evidence of 9862–912. LEATHER, Mr. J. W. (of Leeds): Evidence, 9982–10,232. LEEDs: Witnesses examined. Mayor, Mr. Oxley, 5423–80. Town Clerk, Mr. Smith, 5626–705. Borough surveyor, Mr. Fowler, 6172–260. Inspector of Nuisances, Mr. Swale, 6506–660. Officer of Health, Dr. Robinson, 6085–6171. Mr. Smith, surgeon, 7733–66. Dr. Chadwick, physician, 6660–776. Chairman of Waterworks Committee, Mr. Alderman Carter, 7000–161. Mr. Fenwick, surveyor, 5705–70. ., Ellison, 57.71-87. ., Filliter, Consulting Engineer, 5788–6084. , Dresser, civil engineer, 8080–8231. ., Smith, manager of gasworks, 7767–876. , Arnott, manager of new gasworks, 8579–629. , Bartholomew, engineer to Aire and Calder Navi- gation Company, 7300–468. ,, Wilson, secretary to do., 7468-505. ,, Mitchell, veterinary surgeon, 7665–7732. , Higgins, Cattle Plague Inspector, 8.232–314. ., Ferrand, (of Bingley), 5481–5579. ., Darwin, (of Otley), 5580–5625. ,, Pollard, agent to Sir John Lowther, 6451–505. Secretary to Chamber of Commerce, Mr. Hirst, 7877– 922. Mr. Alderman George, dyer, 6777–863. , Holroyd, do. 7923–8079. ,, Reffitt, do. 8464–578. , Alderman Yewdall, cloth manufacturer, 7163-399. ., R. Nickols, tanner, 6261–451. , Alderman Tatham, skin-dresser, 7506–664. , R. Tennant, flax spinner, 6864–999. ,, Alderman Garside, colliery owner, 8315–463. Population, 228,000 persons, 6182; increase, 600.4–12; 7113–7, 61.83–6. Area, 6177. Rateable value, 6.185. Local government, 5627, 61.78–81. Mortality, 6093–9, 6165, 7112, 6132. Has 1,000 cellar dwellings, 6121. Water Supply, 5436–9, 5649–57, 5833–66, 5891-5904, 5965–6055, 6072-84; and see Water Supply. Sewer- age, extent of 6188–9; partial, 6764–6; sewers not ventilated, 7019, 8112–37, 8337–45; nor protected by flap-valves, 7022–6; and see evidence of Mr. Leather, 10,005–11. Sewage outlet, 806, 819, 5583–6, 5620–1, 5867–70, 5887–9, 6462–3, 6504, 6719,7670–6, 7704-11, 8087–91, 8098–102,8112–7. Pollution extends below Castleford, 810–15, 810:3–7, 15,487, 16, 153–6; solid matter obstructs navigable channel at Castleford, 16,176, 16,191. Possibility of sewage irrigation below town, 5766, 7076; two areas, one of 10,000 acres, accessible by gravitation, the other of 5,000 acres free from resi- dential property, but not available except with pumping, 5936–41; volume to be pumped, 10,000,000 gallons daily, 5942–53; cost of pumping, 2,300l. per annurn, 5940–1, 5953–4; less than present cost of cleansing privies, 7124–6, 8448–54; would be more than re- couped by increase of value of land from irrigation, 5955–62. Privies, 12,000 altogether, of which 1,000 are under dwellings, 6121–3, 6514–25,6659–60, Paper; emptied by corporation at a gross cost of 6,000, to 3 Q 3 494 RIVERS COMMISSION:—INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. [Numbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence: when the reference is made to the numbers as used the second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] LEEDs—cont. 7,000l. per annum; and a net loss of from 2,200l. to 4,000l. 5691–5, 6526, 6538,6646–8, 7046–53, 8448–54. Cleansing process a nuisance; the state of Leeds from 10 o'clock at night till about 4 in the morning, something fearful, 6527–30. Becks polluted, 5669–71, 5800–2, 6089–90, 6194–207, 6225–8, 7079, 7627, 7746–9, 8430–1; occasionally, not systematically, cleansed by corporation, 6228; to be improved under recent statute, 6233–4, see Paper by Mr. Fowler, 6260–1. Trades in cloth, iron, flax, tanning, 5630, 6056; see Evidence of Mr. Hirst, secretary of the Chamber of Commerce, 7877–922. Manufactories on river, see Table put in by Mr. Fowler, 6260–1; 6659 Paper. LEGISLATIon For Rivers: Necessary, 1488, 1967, 2059, 2099, 2470, 2475, 2522, 2745–7, 2751, 2890–3, 2913–4, 2937*, 2964–5, 31.78– 88, 3574,4092, 4278, 4352, 4704–5, 5407,7082, 9638, 10,110, 10,544, 10,929, 12,846–7, 12,885, 13,323, 13,358–62, 14,298, 16,191, 16,410; voluntary combi- nation to prevent pollution has been tried and failed, 11,086–90, 12,009–13, 12,031, 12,820–6. Caution requisite as to ; manufacture is bread to the people, 2932,” 5440; value of manufacturing interests, 10,452–65, 11,128. Competition, both home and foreign, 5075, 8051, 10,448–50. Must be compulsory, not permissive, 142, 2059, 2064, 2086, 2472, 2752, 2893, 3178–80, 31.84–5, 2937*–8*, 3575, 3610, 4278, 4284, 5088, 5451–6, 6936–7, 8685, 12,013. Must extend to whole district, 1523–4, 7082, 8651,8797; to all rivers, 1491, 1523, 2064, 2098, 2104, 2123, 4232, 5068–9, 5096, 5456–7, 7081–2, 8711, 8797, 8820, 9498, 10,823, 10,983. Should prohibit casting in of solid refuse, 2431–2, 2740– 5, 2751, 2935*–6*, 3415*–7*, 4360, 4550–4, 4604, 8390, 8629–30 letter, 11,086, 11,424, 11,802–3, 11,885, 12,016–19, 12,304, 12,510, 12,757, 12,902–7, 13,323. Should prohibit casting in of sewage, 2061–4, 2081, 8647–52. Should require grease to be extracted from soapsuds, 365–7, 1402–5, 1522, 3168–9, 9214–5, 10,592–4, 14,304–5. With regard to other liquid pollution, should compel purification within reasonable limits. A small expense to each manufacturer would be no burden, because (a) It would be the same for all, and additional cost of manufacture would be recompensed by extra price charged to the public for manufactured article, 2064, 2748–50, 6409–10, 11,130, 12,848, 14,171–6, 14,411–18. (8) The expense would be more than compen- sated by gain of pure water, 3585–6, 6825–8,6836–40, 6993–5, 8565–30, 9328–30, 11,131–140, 13,362. To a large manufacturer 2001, per annum would be a trifling tax, 9328–30. See Conservancy, Law, Litigation, Pollution, Sewage, Solid Refuse. LIME: At tanneries carted away, 1590, 1628, 6341. Accumu- lated at gasworks so as to be occasionally a nuisance, 1998–9. Litigation : On account of river pollution, 2391–7, 2510, 3428, 3696, 3708, 3822, 6303,8697, 9118, 9642, 9933–9, 9953–4, 10,909, 11,775–84, 12,013; as to Bradford canal, see Evidence of Mr. Crowther, 10,655–708, Mr. Jeffery, 9684–709; Mr. Mumford, 10,640–54. On account of casting in solid refuse, 3666–71, 4408, 5542, 11,086, 11,950–6, 12,609–616, 13,430–45. On account of floodings caused by abuse, 12,778. On account of flushing out reservoirs, 14,265–88. Lodging Houses: See evidence of Mr. Clough of Huddersfield, 5319–86. LoRD, Mr. E. (of Todmorden): Evidence of, 12,962–13,000. LoRD, Mr. Josiah (of Todmorden): Evidence of, 12,894–935. Lumb, Mr. F. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 1030–66. Lyn AM, Mr. E. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 609–665. M. MADDIson, Mr. (of Dewsbury): Evidence of 2930–3040. MAGson, Mr. (of Halifax). Evidence of, 12,456–533. MALAM, Mr. (of Halifax): Evidence of, 12,534–79. MAltstERs: Witnesses examined. At Wakefield, Mr. Charlesworth, 3052–6. , Skipton, Mr. Scott, 14,725–62. 3, Pontefract, Mr. Carter, 16,518–54. Pollution of river by, 100–2, 15,560–70, 16,103–4, 3086– 99; refuse hops and grains ought to be sold for manure, not cast into river, 16,553–4; rinsings of barrels would be useful in irrigation, 16,563; are now cast into river, 16,533–4, 16,548–52, 16,562. MANURE : Deposits of, a nuisance, 5312 Paper. MARRINER, Mr. (of Keighley): Evidence of, 14,455–515. MARRIott, Mr. (of Batley): Evidence of 2482–560. MARSDEN, Mr. (of Skipton): Evidence of, 15,009–64. McGowen, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of, 8728–827. MEDICAL Evide Noe : At Castleford, Mr. Jessop, 16,200–32. , Halifax, Dr. Wightman, 10,809–37. , Alexander, 12,413–55. , Keighley, Mr. Miñºniś7% , Leeds, Dr. Robinson, 6085–171. -> , Chadwick, 6660–776. -> Mr. Smith, 7733–66. º, Pontefract, Dr. Atkinson, 16,574–26. -> , Muscroft, 16,627–54. -> , Simpson, 16,280–371, 16,572–3. , Wakefield, Mr. Fowler, 457–544. -> Dr. Holdsworth, 544–608. -- Mr. Milner, 2124–70. -> ,, Statter, 1152–221. ºx Dr. Wade, 283-315. -> -- Wright, 2171–98. MELLOR, Mr. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 41.47–285, 5387-400. MILLIGAN, Mr. (of Keighley): Evidence of, 13,678–727. MILNER, Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 2124–70. MILLs, Mr. C. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 5311–18. MIRFIELD : See evidence of Mr. Auty, 2585-675. Mitchell, Mr. (of Leeds): Evidence of, 7665–732. Mitch ELL, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of 946.3—504. 5312 Paper. MoRGAN, Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 86–118. MoRRIs, Mr. (of Sowerby Bridge): Evidence of 12,291–330. MoULE’s : - Dry earth-closets, 5590–93. Moxon, Mr. (of Pontefract): Evidence of 16,555–71. MUM Ford, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of, 10,640–54. MuscRort, Dr. (of Pontefract): Evidence of 16,627–54. Mold GREEN : RIVERS COMMISSION:—INDEX - TO THE EVIDENCE. 495 -- [Numbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence: when the reference as made to the numbers its used the second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] N. Nickols, Mr. (of Leeds): Evidence of, 6261–450. Nicolson, Mr. (of Skipton): Evidence of 15,205-94. Norris, Mr. (of Halifax): Evidence of 10,838–991. North BEck (near Keighley): 13,185–7, 13,194–201, 13,910. O. OATEs, Mr. (of Dewsbury): Evidence of, 3354–467. Ochrey : Water from mines. Mr. Brook, 4785–815. , Haigh, 4456–99. , Tinker, 52.15–59. A very injurious form of pollution to riyºs, 3003–40, 3884–5, 4369, 4417–22,4596,4630–1,4933–4, 5040–5, 12,849–57; might be kept out by walling up of day- holes, 4785, 4795. Objections to walling up day- holes; water would accumulate and burst the barrier, and then ochre would do more mischief than if let out by degrees, 5234; or water, if securely pent up, would be lost to streams and mills, 5234–7. Ochre would deposit, if waterled to settling reservoirs, and the deposit would be saleable, 4795–815, 5253–5. OAKEs, Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 119–145. Old Royd, Mr. (of Thornhill): Evidence of 2919–29. ORMERod, Mr. (of Todmorden): Evidence of, 12,871–893. Oxley, Mr. (of Leeds): Evidence of, 5423–80. See evidence of, P. Paper: Manufacture. See evidence of Mr. Hastings, 12,032–82a; Mr. Bracken, 12,249–90. PERKIN, Mr. G. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 1544–616. Poll ARD, Mr. (of Leeds): Evidence of, 6451-505. Pollution. I. Causes. II. Extent. III. Effects. IV. Law concerning. W. Legislation. VI. Modes of prevention. I. Causes. From sewage. Of Batley, 2316, 2388. Bingley, 13,471, 14,352–4, 14,364. Bradford, 8654, astleford, 15.502–4, 16,235–6. Dewsbury, 2209. Halifax, 10,829, 10,843, 10,901–10, 11,502–5. Harrogate, 5771-87. Honley, 4436. Huddersfield, 2927*–9*, 3124.” Keighley, 5519–21, 13,109, 13,877–9. Knottingley, 16,362. Leeds, 806–15, 5889, 8103–7, 15,847, 16,153–6, 819, 5583–6, 5620–1, 5887, 6462–3, 6504, 6719, 7670–6, 7704–11, 8087–91, 8098–102, 8112-7, 5584, 5621–5, 5761–5, 7680–2, 8259, 5942, 6484, 16,176, 16,191. Lockwood, 4607. Mold Green, 5312 Paper. Pontefract, 15,348–57, 16,714–5, 15,368–77, 15,461–7, 15,708–21, 16,540–5, 16,644-7. Wakefield, 85-6 Paper, 98, 111, 253–8, 260–8,561–2, 618, 2133, 270–3, 563, 618, and see Sewage. From Privies, &c., of manufactories, 1372–5, 4169–74, 6260–1 Table, 6574, 6924-5, 7550, 10,283–5, ºil.297-300, 12,886–9, 14,140–5, and see Prities. From Night-soil tipped in, 3288–91*. *From Carcases thrown in, 50, 679–82, 1297–1302, 5643–4, 677–8, 707–12, 754–5, 1244, 2284–5, 24.13. 3072, 3464–7, 5509–11, 5586, 6539–44, 6720,6944–50, 7196–8, 15,119, 16,031–9, 16,132–6. From manufacturing refuse: Of chemical works, 789–90, 1273–6, 3923–9, 6601–7, 11,950–6, and see Chemicals. Of Cocoa-nut Fibre works, 543–4, Paper 103–5, 472–4, 1544–1616, 2149, 2170 Paper. Of Dyeworks universal, 3210–1 Table and passim. See also Dye Waste Liquid, and Grease Extraction. Of Malthouses, 100–2, 3086–99, 15,560–70, 16,103-4, 16,533–4, 16,548–54, 16,562–3. Of Paper Mills, 12,032-82a, 12,249–90. Of Tan Yards, 5634, 6281, 7526, 8524, 14,291–3, and see Tanning. Of Wireworks, 11,344, 11,283-361. Of Wool-dressing, greasy soapsuds, see Grease Eatrac- tion, Wool Manufacture. From Ochrey water of mines, 3003–40, 3884–5, 4369, 4417–22, 4630–1,4933–4, 5040–5, 12,849–57. II. Extent. Present state of streams as compared with former state; of Aire and its tributaries, near Bradford, 8657, 8662, 8727, 10,087–91, 10,302–7, 8913, 9476–89, 9507–25, 9560–78, 9698, 9.941, 10,000, 10,303–7, 10,767–79, 10,785–7. Near Castleford, 15,491, 15,527, 15,544–9, 16,009–15, 16,030, 16,046–52, 16,125–9, 16,378, 16,686. Near Keighley, 13,155. Near Knottingley, 16,693–704, 16,721. Near Leeds, 5428–30, 5485–8, 5497–8, 6087, 6260–1 Tables, 6462, 6637–40, 6664–5, 7170–9, 7670–6, 8084–6. Of Calder and tributaries, near Dewsbury, 2278–82, 2378–9, 2487, 2565–70, 2604, 2682, 2688, 2856, 2906–9, 2917–8, 3048, 3156, 3263-79, 3358–63. Near Halifax, 10,901–2, 11,265, 11,390, 12,436–41, 12,450, 11,824, 12,595, 12,010–2. Near Huddersfield, 2961*, 2976*–8*, 3012–5*, 3210–1. Paper, 3271* Paper, 3350*, 3906–7, 4541, 4574, 4832. Near Wakefield, 85–86 Paper, 106, 119, 121, 130, 281, 543–4 Paper, 673–6, § 1034, 1271, 1339–46, 1844, 1861, 1965–6, 2053, Smell, 119, 248, 604, 724–8, 783–8, 1246, 1389–93, 1967, 2053, 5312 Paper, 5434, 6462, 6719–20, 6462–3, 6943, 7672, 7704, 9575–7, 10,302-7, 11,397–400, 12,012, 12,082, 12,450, 14,696–7. III. Effects— 1. On health, 120, 248–9, 254–5, 525–7, 543–4 Paper, 3994–4004, 6166–7, 6720, 12,442, 13,483–90, 13,504– 14, 13,877–82, 16,046–52. 2. On the poor, spoils their natural water supply, com- pels them either to buy water, 3189*–93*, }}}} or to drink it impure, 5557, 16,351-60, 16,721. 3. On riparian property and owners of cattle, 2055, 31944–5*, 3369*-71*, 4078–81,5572–9, 5584, 5621–5, 5761–6, 7680–2, and see evidence of Mr. Mitchell, 7665–732, 8259. 4. Upon manufactures: Pure water requisite for manufactures, 1342–6, 1352–4, 2681, 7179–80, and passim. In some parts water of river and becks still used for washing, 1342, 1846; for flax works, 6878; and for dyeing, 1342, 1846, 4157–8, 4572. If water a little polluted, palliatives possible, filtration, 3060–1, chemical appliances, 6785–7, 8554–8, 2860–71, involving additional cost of 33 per cent. As pollution increases, finer and lighter colours have to be given up by dyers, 1341–6, 1409–15, 1848–52, 1856 2592, 3079*–81*, 3265, 8475–84, 8566, 12,114; then water becomes altogether unfit for dyeing, 3412*, 3956, 4389, 4833, 7944–5; manufacturers }. either to move their works higher up the stream, 124–7, 1345; or to becks, 2732; or to another district, 2517-8; or to pro- cure an independent supply either from canal, or wells, or private reservoirs, or public waterworks. This gene- rally the case in Aire and Calder basin, 2511, 3124*, 11,464, and passim. Cost of water pumped from wells, 9135–7, 91.60–7, 9193-8, 9289–93, 11,109, 11,136– 43, 11,668, 12,208; of water from private reservoirs 12,208; of water from reservoirs formed by combina. tion amongst manufacturers, 4873–83; of the water brought from public waterworks, 1462, 1470–1, 2513–16, 2735–9, 7274, 8890–1, 10,214–7, 11,134–43, 11,290–3, 11,374–7, 11,658–74, 12,094–100. The water of rivers and becks must, if law does not inter- pose, become useless for all pºrposes of manufacture, except as steam power, 2471, 2551-3, 2683, 2780, 3361*–64*, 6938–40, 7522, 11,033, 11,483. 5. Litigation produced, 2391–7, 2510, 3428, 3696, 3708 3822, 6303,8697, 9118, 9642, 9938–9,9953–4, 10,909 11,775–84, 12,013; also 10,655–708, 9684–9709 10,640–54. IV. Law concerning Pollution, see Law. V. Legislation requisite, see Legislation, Conservancy. VI. Modes of prevention, see Dye Waste, Grease Evtrac- tion, Maltsters, Sewage Irrigation, Tanning Refuse Ochrey Waters, * 3 Q 4 496 RIVERS COMMISSION :—INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. [Numbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence: when the reference is made to the numbers as used the second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] PoNTEFRACT : Witnesses examined, Mayor, Mr. Routledge, 15,334–77. Town Clerk, Mr. Coleman, 15,571–633. Street Commissioner, Mr. Wordsworth, 15,634–703a. Inspector of Nuisances, Mr. Fernside, 15,378–467. Manager of Waterworks, Mr. Turpin, 15,750–826. Manager of Gasworks, Mr. Gundill, 15,827–70. Officer of Health, Dr. Muscroft, 16,627–54. Dr. Atkinson, medical practitioner, 16,574–626. Mr. Moxon, maltster, 16,555–71. , Wood, 15,704–49. , Horn, flint grinder, 15,468-570. , Heptinstall, corn-miller and maltster, 15,968, 16,120. , Brooke, farmer, 16,655–87. ”9 Hartley, Bridge Master to West Riding, 15,871– 67 Population, 15,335. Rateable value, 15,337. Local government double, by Corporation and Street Com- missioners, 15,340–6, 15,571–684, 16,564–8, 16,599– 608, 16,640–1. Mortality, 26 in 1000, 16,569; increasing, 16,630, 16,642; fever and epidemic dis- eases decidedly increasing from neglect of sanitary conditions, 16,576–9, 16,633–9. Sewerage, 15,347, 15,417–26, 15,683–8, 15,875–9; very partial, 15,707; neglected, 16,579; and offensive, 16,569, 16,633. Sew- age passes into canal, 15,348–57, 15,368–77, and see Sewage. Water supply, 15,363–5, 15,694-701, 16,633, and see Water Supply, and evidence of Mr. Turpin, 15,750–826. Waterclosets, 175 in number, 15,385. Privies injuriously close to houses, 15,389–91, 16,583, 16,714–15. Are cleansed by owners, 15,428–30. Gas- works, see evidence of manager, 15,827–70. PRIESTLEY, Mr. (of Todmorden): Evidence of, 12,936–61. PRIvi Es: At manufactories. Contents passed into river, 1372–5, 4169–74, 6230–1 Table, 6574, 6924,5, 7550, 10,283–5, 10,482–4, 11,297-300, 12,886–9, 14,140–5. No privy arrangements for 700 men, 8378–82. Contents used for manufacture, 9868. Contents put on land, 2611–12, 3866, 4304, 4397, 4516–8, 4884–8, 5034–8, 7244–9, 7549, 80.75–7, 9187, 9306–10, 9866–8, 9.931–2, 10,283, 10,388–93, 10,808 Letter, ll,019–23, 11,365, 11,384, 11,675–81, 11,770–2, 11,835–7, 11,907–10, 12,019, 12,047, 12,105–7, 12,227–9, 12,366–7, 12,639–40, 12,660–2, 12,684–6, 12,749, 12,829–30, 12,886–9, 12,949–61, 13,124, 13,148, 13,919–21, 14,008–11, 14,040–4, 14,203–7, 14,341–2, 14,384–7, 14,479–81, 14,519–21, 14,683–4, 14,744–5, 14,816, 15,100, 16,406– 9, 16,559–61. Contents of none ought to be suffered to pass into the river, 7553, 11,093–5. , Batley, 2328–38. ,, Bingley, systematically inspected and cleansed under Commissioners, 13,491–5. ,, Bradford, about 14,000 in number, cleansed by Cor- poration at a cost of 2,700l. per annum, 8846–56; not one placed under dwellings, 886.3–5; if converted into waterclosets, removal of dry ashes would cost nearly as much as before, 9052–4. ,, Castleford, sometimes injurious to health, 16,074–9, 16,293–309. , Dewsbury, 2243–9, 2253–5, cleansed out at shorter intervals. ,, Halifax. Some 1,500 or 1,600 ashpits, 11,596–8.; injurious to poor, 12,451–5; some are placed over stream, 12,480–1; most are cleansed by Corporation, only in default of owner; loss to Corporation from process last year, 100l., 10,920–7. ,, Huddersfield, cleansed by Commissioners, 32.19%–28*. ,, Keighley, in case of neglect, are cleansed by Local Board, 13,147–8, 13,870–6, 14,777–9. , Leeds, 12,000 altogether, of which 1,000 are under dwellings, 6121–3, 6514–25; emptied by Corporation at a gross cost of 6,000l. to 7,000l. per annum, and a net loss of from 2,200l. to 4,000l., 5691–5, 6526, 6538, 6646–8, 7046–53, 8448–54; cleansing process a nui- sance, “the state of Leeds from 10 o’clock at night till about four in the morning something fearful,” 6527– 30. ,, Pontefract, injurious to health, 15,389–91, 16,583, 16,714–15; owners are called upon to cleanse, 15,428– 30. 2287–94, should be At Skipton, cleansed by authorities, if neglected by owners, 14,635, 14,907–13; their conversion into water closets found advantageous to health, 14,873–81. , Todmorden, 12,734–9; regulations by Local Board as to, 12,949–60, 13,042–3. , Wakefield, cause of ill-health and fever, 167–99, 286– 94, 182, 532–8; difficulty of cleansing, 204–12; amount of contents annually removed, 167–73; in default of owners, cleansed by Corporation, 207; also exception- ally cleansed by Corporation from fear of cholera, 43–7; better, but more expensive, for Corporation to undertake the whole work of cleansing, 213–16. On the whole improved, 157–8. Contents of workhouse privies put on land, 275. RAIN FALL : - In Aire Dale, 5,770 Tables; at Halifax, 12,416; in Hebble Valley, 11,272–5; at Huddersfield, 5174–7, 5259; at Keighley, 13,226-8; at Leeds, 5813–32, 9616–17; at Skipton, 15,249; at Wakefield, 1693. RAvens'THoRPE : Witnesses examined: Clerk to Local Board, Mr. Rayner, 3105–33. Mr. Wormald, dyer, 3134–257. Mr. Tattersfield, fulling miller, 3258–353. has no water supply, 3113–18; is not sewered, 3121. RAwson, Mr. (of Halifax): Evidence of, 12,125–95. RAYNER, Mr. (of Ravensthorpe): Evidence of, 3105–33, RESERVoIRs: Equalize river-flow and diminish floods, 3081, 3424–5, 3264*-6*, 4871–2, 10,002, 14,012; payment by manu- facturers for use of, 3551–6, 3579, 3597, 4878–83 4957–8, 8062–8, 8223–31, 8915–31, 10,165–8, 10,927, 14,208–14; and see evidence of Mr. Brigg, 14,012–25 Provision as to bye-wash of, 10,192–298, 11,562–89, 14,933-57, 14,107–8; sometimes discharged carelessly, 13,298–309. RHoDEs, Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 1–85. RICHARDson, Mr. (of Halifax): Evidence of, 11,255-82, 11,494-598. RIDGwAY, Mr. (of Dewsbury): Evidence of 2561–84. REFFITT, Mr. (of Leeds): Evidence of, 8464–578. RILEY, Mr. (of Esholt Hall): Evidence of 9560–616. RIPARIAN PRoPRIETors: See evidence of Mr. Constable, 9617–83; Mr. Darwin, 5580–625; Mr. Ferrand, 5481–579, 13.295–369; Captain Graham, agent to Sir J. Ramsden, 4072–5146; Mr. Holmes, 9505–59 ; Mr. Mitchell, 9463-504; Mr. Nicolson, agent to Sir R. Tufton, 15,205–94; Mr. Pollard, agent to Sir John Lowther, 6451–505; Mr. Riley, gardener, 9560–91; Colonel Smyth, 2051-113. Should be bound to cleanse river-bed, 5517. Increase of value of land from growth of manufactures, 9217, 9.323–5, 9634–5. RIPLEY, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of, 10,435–639. RoAD Scrapings: Thrown into river, 3199%–3202*, 12,010–628, 12,913–15, 12,948, 13,161–2, 13,623, 13,829–30; might be usefully applied to raising land, 3208*–10*; at Leeds 9,000 tons sold annually, 6589–91, RoBINson, Mr. (of Honley): Evidence of,4365-455. Robinson, Dr. (of Leeds): Evidence of, 6085–171. Robson, Mr. (of Mold Green, Huddersfield): Fvidence of 5260-310. * RIVERS COMMISSION:—INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. 497 Numbers 2919-3467 are repeated in the Evidence - when the reference is made to the numbers as used the second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] Rod LEY, Mr. (of Todmorden): Evidence of, 13,001–45. Rood House, Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 1067–95. RouTLEdge, Mr. (of Pontefract): Evidence of 15,334–77. S. SALMosd, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of, 10,750–94. SANITARY Arrangements. Scavenging. Sewage. Sewerage. closets. Water Supply. See Lodging-houses. Privies. Smoke. Water- ScAvRNGING : Of river, necessary and neglected. Nuisance of floating carcases, 50,677–82, 707–12, 754–5, 1244, 1297-302, 2284–5, 2413, 3072, 3464–7, 5509–11, 5586,5643–4, 6539–44, 6720, 6944–50, 7196–8, 15,119, 16,031-9, 16,132–6; at Leeds the scavenger has removed 50 carcases in a day, 6542. Scott, Mr. (of Skipton): Evidence of 14,725-62. SEED, Mr. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 5114–51. SEwAGE : Of sewers (sewerage being in every town only partially adopted) of Batley, passes into beck, ºlº sº... ., Bingley, passes into Aire, 13,471, 13,352–4, 14,364. , Bradford, passes into beck, 8654. Castleford, passes into Aire & Calder, 15,502–4, 16,235–6. ,, Dewsbury, passes into Calder, 2209. , Halifax, its volume, 11,502-5; passes into beck, 10,829, 10,843, 10,901-10. ,, Harrogate, passes into river Nidd, and spoils water supply of Knaresboro' 5771–87. ., Honley, passes into stream, 4436. ... Huddersfield, passes into Colne and canal, 2927*–29*, 3124.” , Keighley, passes into Aire, 5519–21, 13,109, 13,877–9. ,, Knottingley, passes into Aire and Calder, 16,362 -> * -- , Leeds, its volume, from 6,000,000 to 8,000,000 gallons daily, 5942; increasing from increase of population and extension of sewerage, 6484; passes into the Aire, its effect at the outlet, 806–9, 819, 5583–9, 5620–1, 5887, 6462–3, 6504, 6719, 7379–3, 7704–11, 8087–91, 8098–102, 8112–17; possibly predisposed to cattle plague, or aggravated plague, 5584, 562i-5, 5761–6, 7680–2; secus, 8259. Pollution extends below Castleford, S10–5, 8103–7, 15,487, 16,153–6; the solid matter obstructs navigable channel at Castleford, 16,176, 16,191. ., Lockwood, passes into river, 4607. , Mold Green, passes into river, 5812 PAPER. Pontefract, is collected into tanks and allowed to get putrid, 16,714–5; passed thence into Goole canal, 15,348–57, 15,368–77, 15,708–21. Goole canal runs through Knottingley, and inhabitants of Knottingley draw part of their water from this polluted source, 16,544-7. The canal enters Ouse at Goole, 15,461–7. The sewage tanks are a nuisance. 16,540–5. , Wakefield, passes into river, 85–6 Paper III. : even sewage of Asylum, 270–3. 563, 618; and prison, 98, 253–8, 260–8, 561–2, 618,2133. Flood of, beneath floor in prison, immediately caused diarrhoea amongst immates, 2146. Law against casting into streams, quite inoperative, 2118–22. See Sewerage, Waterclosets, Pollution, Legislation. -> - 17159–2, - SEwAgº, IRRIGATIon : Right to be carried out, though it cost a town like Wakefield 1,000l. per annum, 82–3. Successfully carried out by Mr. Ferrand, 5526–33; and at Grange, 6476–80. Objected to, 11,181, 11,184–98. Is sewage of manufacturing town valuable for irrigation? 6486–93. Cost of pumping sewage according to Mr. Filliter one halfpenny per 1,000 gallons for pump- ing 250 feet, 5856–8, 5940–1, 5953–4; as compared with cost of removing contents of privies, 7124–6, 8448–54; as compared with a gravitation scheme of irrigation, 5905–11. Valley of Aire generally fitted for, 5526, 5767. Noland available immediately below Brad- ford, 9068–9, 10,114; and volume of sewage to be pumped 20,000,000 gallons daily, 8935–40; land avail- able below Castleford, 16,264–5, 16,514–5; below Keighley, subject to the necessity of pumping, 13,264– 6; below Leeds, 5766, 7076; two areas, one of 10,000 acres accessible by gravitation, the other of 5,000 acres free from residential property, but not available except with pumping, 5938–41. Volume to be pumped, 10,000,000 gallons daily, 5942–53; cost of pumping, 2,300!, per annum, 5940–1, 5953–4, less than pre- sent cost of cleansing privies, 7124–6, 8448–54; would be more than recouped by increase of value of land caused by irrigation, 5955–62. Below Pontefract, land available, 15,692–3, 16,563. Below Skipton, valuable meadow land available without pumping, 14,655–63 14,893, 15,231–40. Valley of Calder: no land available near Dewsbury, 2787–93; or Huddersfield, 3150*–6*, 4136–40; or Ravensthorpe, 3133; or Todmorden, 12,861. Land available near junction of Hebble and Calder, 11, 199–204; and below Wakefield, though pumping would be necessary, 51,64–6, 1100, 1147–8, SEWERA GE : Of Batley, 2315, 2324–6. Bradford, sewers insufficiently ventilated, 8945–64, 9951–2. Castleford, partially carried out, and sewers not at all ventilated, 16,227–30, 16,250–3; mouths of sewers un- protected, 16,254–8; part of sewer is open, and filled with stagnant sewage, 16,260; sewers are liable to be back-watered, so as to flood cottages, 16,239–44, 16,271-9. See evidence of Mr. Heptinstall, 16,233–79. Dewsbury, 2208–21. Halifax, still in progress, 10,843; sewers insufficiently ventilated, 10,817; 10,832–6, 11,526–31, 11,556, 12,529. Huddersfield, 2927*; sewers not ventilated, 3124,” 3.1684–72. Keighley, 13,168; sewers insufficiently ventilated, 13,858–65, 14,780–7. Knottingley, a rude and imperfect system, 16,361. Leeds, extent of, 6188–9; partial, 6764–6; sewers not ventilated, 7019, 8112–37, 8337–45; not protected by flap valve, 7022-6. See evidence of Mr. Leather, 10,005–11. Pontefract; 15,347; very partial, 15,707; ill-flushed and ill-ventilated, 15,417–26, 15,683–8, 15,875–9, 16,569; not trapped, ió,633; and neglected, 16,579–85. Skipton, 14,866–73; sewers well flushed, 14,883; im- perfectly ventilated, 14,884–9. Drains connected with sewers are ill-constructed, and injurious to health, 15,212–8. Todmorden, very bad, 12,858–60. Wakefield, incomplete, 20, 76, 85–6, Paper, 610–2, 633-5; plans of, old, 627–33, 1100–9. Sewers ill- ventilated and ill-flushed, and so very foul, 620–6; effect of bad ventilation of sewers of prison, 2141. Outfall of sewers too low, 1105. Private drains ill- constructed, 1110–3. SHARP, Mr. [of Keighley): Evidence of, 13,821–924. SHAw, Mr. (of Halifax): Evidence of, 12,331–412. Shop DY, no cause of river pollution, 24.12. See evidence of Mr. Jubb, 2363, 248] Sidgwick, Mr. C. (of Skipton): Evidence of 14,621-66. SIDGwick, Mr. R. (of Skipton): Evidence of, 14,667–724. SIMPson, Dr. (of Pontefract): Evidence of, 16,280–371, 16,572–3. 3 R 498 RIVERS COMMISSION:--INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. [Numbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence : when the reference is made to the numbers as used the second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] SIMPson, Mr. (of Castleford): Evidence of 16,372–427. Skipton : Witnesses examined: Chairman of Local Board, Mr. Sidgwick, 14,622-66. Surveyor of Local Board, Mr. W. Bradley, 14,864–922. Vice-Chairman of Board of Guardians, Mr. B. Brad- ley, 15,120–204. Manager of Waterworks, Mr. Calvert, 14,923–15,008, 15,295–308, Foreman of Gasworks, Mr. Clarke, 15,309-33. Registrar of Births and Deaths, Mr. Bailey, 15,065–89. Mr. Marsden, surgeon, 15,009–64. ,, Heelis, 14,712–24. ---, ., R. Sidgwick, cotton spinner, 14,667–724. ,, Dewhurst, cotton spinner, 14,800–63. ,, Horner, lead manufacturer, 15,090–119. ,, Scott, brewer, 14,725–62. ,, Nicolson, agent to Sir R. Tufton, 15,205–94. Population, 14,628. Trade, 14,631. Rateable value, 14,642. Mortality, 26 in a thousand, 15,069, and see evidence of Mr. Bailey, 15,065–89, 15,147–53. Health improved, 15,013–29. Sewerage imperfectly constructed, 14,633, 14,866–73, 15,212–28; See Sewerage. Sewage; contents of sewers pass into river, 14,639–45. See Sewage. Cess- pools, 14,634–7,14,874–81, 14,907–15; 100 waterclosets, 15,212–28. Water Supply, 14,923–15,008, 15,295-308, and see Water Supply. Gasworks, 15,309-33. SLEE, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of 9710–67. SMITH, Mr. C. (of Leeds): Evidence of 7767–876. SMITH, Mr. J. E. (of Leeds): Evidence of, 5626–705. SMITH, Mr. F. (of Halifax): Evidence of 11,283-361. SMITH, Mr. G. (of Wakefield): Evidence of 1222–34. SMITH, Mr. S. (of Bradford): Evidence of 9252–9349, 10,709–49. SMITH, Mr. S. (of Leeds): Evidence of 7733–66. SMITH, Mr. W. (of Keighley): Evidence of 13,523–614. SMokE PREVENTion, 11,858–67, 11,967–78, 12,140–95, 12,306–17, 12,347–51, 12,389–410, 12,513–25, 12,927–35, 12,995–13,000, 13,349–53, 13,588–98. Produces much less ash, 12,190. SMYTH, Col. (of Wakefield): Evidence of 2051–113. So AP MANUFACTURE AND So APSUDs. See Eaºtraction. Solid REFuse. IN RIVER : I. Kinds of refuse. II. Extent and effects of obstruction. III. Necessity of legislative interference. I. Kinds of refuse : Ashes, tipped into streams, 756–7, 1249–50, 1294, 1324–34, 2381, 3016*, 3210° TABLE, 3399°–401*, 3523–7, 4303–4, 4575, 4613, 4823, 5017, 5501-4, 12,671–4, 12,682, 12,687–701, 12,746–7, 12,793–6, 12,802, 12,874–5, 12,632–8, 14,127–34. Carted away, 1350, 1638, 1858–60, 1878–9, 3127–8, 3813–4, 4164–6, 4376–7, 4514–726, 5270–1, 6799, 6889, 7192, 7647–52, 7870–1, 8038–42, 8519–20, 9140–4, 9296, 9924–6, 10,288–92, 10,380–2, 10,513–9, 11,009–18, 11,155–60, 11,294–6, 11,368–71, 11,604–6, 11,728–30, 11,832–4, 11,903–6, 12,090–3, 12,136–9, 12.201–2, 12,345, 12,352–3, 12,618–20, 12,965–9, 13,530–41, 14,339–40, 14,458, 14,486–8, 14,557–61, 14,818–9, 15,496–501, 15,974–6, 16,380–2. Expense of removal of 1878–83, 6801, 6900–1, 8041, 11,018, 13,537–9, 14,134, 14,155–60, 14,340. Might be utilized for roads, 3124* and passim, when ground served as a substitute for sand in cement, 2936*, 4514,4731–6. Ordinary pro- portion of ashes from coals, 4368,4641,4821-2,6884; might be greatly reduced by proper consumption of smoke, 12,190. All ashes should be kept out of streams, 3391–2, 30.19%, 3528, 3898-8, 9302, 10,519–23, 11.08°, 11,455, 11.710, 12,117, 12,622–3. --- Grease Debris from mountains, 3271*-2* Paper, 3318, 12,699 how to be intercepted, 57,314, 12,814–7, 12,908–10, 12,978, 15,164–9, 15,272–6. - Dyewood, thrown into river, 2240, 2381–2, 2571–6, 2583, 6790, 7958, 9.125–9, 12,218–20; to the great injury of the bed, 793–6; might be all kept out with- out hardship to manufacturers, 1868,2503–9, 2538-9, 2625-6, 2723, 2740. Its use for land may be ques- tionable, 2713–21, 10,493, though it is occasionally bought by farmers, 8507–10; but chipped dye-woods are easily collected, and burnt under boilers, 1437, 1590, 2601–2, 2722, 30.36°, 33.97%, 5291, 8511, 11,641, 11,993–9, 12,104, 14,810–2. Rasped, dyewoods may be collected with a little trouble, and though unfit for fuel, may be made into a spoil heap, and so burnt, 6793, 6841–3, 7974–6,9297, 10,495–505, 11,099-106, 11,643–5, 11,760–1, 12,024–6. Excavations, 2934,” 3122*–3,” 4085, 4408–9, 12,323, 12,764, 12,970–1, 13,622, 13,831, 14,160. Foundry refuse, 5504, 13,622. Fuller’s earth, 3244–54. General refuse, 5500. Lead-mines, 8141–77. Road scrapings, 31994–202, 12,00, 12,628, 12,913–5, 12,948, 13,161–2, 13,623, 13,829–30; might be usefully applied to raising land, 32084–10*; at Leeds 9000 tons sold annually, 6589–91. Sediment flushed out of reservoirs or tanks into the river, to be flushed again successively by millowners lower down the stream, 2837–55, 3208–16, 3051*–75, 30613-2,4 3532–5, 4432–3, 4824–7, 10,471, 10,524, 10,528–33, 11,040–8, 11,268–70, 12,380–8, 13,629–30, 14,265–88, 14,381-3, 14,562-4; out of canalinto Calder, 12,585–95; can the mud so flushed out be utilized? 3214–6. Sewage, 16,176–91. Wool waste, 757–63, 1540–3, 4643–54. II. Extent and effects of obstruction. The bed is raised, 693,3366–92, 31974–8, 3203, 3302,” 3406,” 3529–31, 4386, 4520, 4549, 4616–7, 4942, 54.22 Paper, 5736–9, 8641–8, 11,265, 12,802–4, 12,898–901, 12,942, 13,156, 13,467–8, 13,515–22. 13.541–6, 13,619, 13,690, 13,736, 13,827, 13,832, 13,898–909, 14,056–7, 14,122, 14,148–51, 14,515, 15,933. Is the raising of the bed due more to refuse thrown into the stream or to mountain debris 2 12,987–8, 14,160, 14,167, 13,159. Banks become irregular, 3123,” 4942. Floodings are caused, 3048,” 3204, 3303,” 3537–40, 5422 Paper, 12,028–31, 12,634, 13,547–9, 13,599–614, and see Floodings. Drains are backed up, 13,157–8, 13-599–614, 13,627, 13,814–9, 13,833–7, 13,923–40. Water-power is decreased, 11,942, 12,602–16, 14,099–100. Navigation im- peded, and the requisite dredging enormously increased, 740–7, 7635, 1224–43, 1253, 7318–33, 7348. 7467–8 TABLEs, 16,153, 16.169-76. See evidence of Mr. Bartholomew, Engineer to Aire and Calder Navigation, 7300–468; of Mr. Holmes, 735–830; of Mr. G. Smith, 1222–334; of Mr. Oates, 3354–467; of Mr. Wilkinson, 16,121-99. Material dredged up, not sand, but ashes and filth, 1249–50, 1294, 3220–2, 3293, 3393 410, 16,174–6, 16,189. III. Necessity of legislative interference– The throwing in of rubbish is prohibited under the Aire and Calder Navigation Acts, 1326–34, 1871–8, 2060, 6890, 7485; but the prohibition applies only to Navi. #;" Channel, not to becks, 2066–7, 7328–32, /−8. All solid refuse should be excluded from all running streams, 2431–2, 2740–5, 2751, 29354–6, 34.15%-7. 4360, 4550-4, 4604, 8390, 8629–30 Letter, 11,086, 11,424, 11,802–3, 11,885, 12,016–9, 12,304, 12,510, 12,757, 12,902, 13,323, and see Legislation, Conservancy, SPENCER, Mr. T. (of London): Evidence of 1714–837, 1982–2051. STANsRIELD, Mr. (of Todmorden): Evidence of 12,702–39. STATTER, Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of 1152–1221. STEwART, Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, l,642–70. suddes, Mr. (of Bingley): Evidence of 14,516–96. SUTcLIFFE, Mr. (of Idle): º Evidence of 9916–81. --- RIVERS COMMISSION :-INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. 499 Numbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence ; when the reference is made to the numbers as used the second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] SutcLIFFE, Mr. (of Todmorden): Evidence of 12,596–655, Swale, Mr. (of Leeds): Evidence of, 6506–660. Swallow Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of, 9350–462. Sykes, Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of 831–1029, 1670–89. T. TANNERs : Witnesses examined, At Bradford, Mr. Slee, 9710–67. , Keighley, Mr. Cockshott, 13,649–77. , Leeds, Mr. Nickols, 6261–451. >y Mr. Tatham, 7506–664. TANNING: Extent of at Leeds, 2,750,000 hides tanned in one year, 6369. Materials used, 6450 PAPER ; in some cases human excrement, 6581–6. Abundance of pure water necessary, 6313–7, 6322–5, 6347–63, 6355–60, 7516–20, 7571–4. Waste products; spent solids led away for manure, 6284, 6341; spent bark burnt, 6300, or led away, 7652–60. 9278–9. Means of disposing of waste liquid must be had or the trade cannot be carried on, 6395–403, 6411. At present, waste liquid chiefly passes into stream, 5634, 6281, 7526, 8524, 14,291–3; fit for irrigation, only if ample area available, otherwise too strong and too salt, 6304–12, 6320–37; might be passed into sewers and, mixed with sewage, be applied for irrigation, 6364–6, 6378, 6405–6, 97.59–65. TATHAM, Mr. Alderman (of Buslingthorpe, Leeds): Evidence of 7506–664. TATTERs FIELD, Mr. (of Ravensthorpe): Evidence of 3258–353, TEALL, Mr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of 316–456. TENNANT, Mr. R. (of Leeds): Evidence of 6864–999. THoMPson, Mr. (of Bradford): Evidence of 9762–862. THoRNHILL : Witnesses examined: Clerk to Local Board, Mr. Oldroyd, 2919–29 Mr. Charlesworth, maltster, 3041–104. Mr. Maddison, colliery proprietor, 2930–3040. Polluted canal the only water supply, 2934–63. THoRNToN, Mr. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of 3211*–72*. TINKER, Mr. (of Holmfirth): Evidence of 52.15–59. ToDMoRDEN : Witnesses examined: Chairman of Local Board, Mr. J. Fielden, 12,844–70. Surveyor and Inspector of Nuisances, Mr. Rodley, 13,001–45. Mr. Bamford, surveyor, 13,046–92. , Hamerton, solicitor, 12,772–85. , Buckley, machine maker, 12,656–74. ., J. Lord, do., 12,894–935. , E. Lord, do., 12,962–13,000. , Stansfield, nurseryman, 12,702–39. , Sutcliffe, corn-miller, 12,596–655. , Chambers, cotton spinner, 12,740–71. ., J. Fielden, do., 12,786–843. ., R. Fielding, do., 12,675–701. ,, Ormerod, do., 12,871–93. ,, Priestley, draper, 12,936–61. Not sewered, 12,859–60; suffers from floodings, see 12,596–13,092, and evidence taken at Todmorden, passim ; especially, 12,641–5, 12,702–8, 12,754–6, 12,974–5, 13,014–29, 13,053–92. Town END, Mr. (of Cullingworth): Evidence of 14,179–329. TURNER, Mr. (of Huddersfield) Evidence of 29.19%–65%. TURPIN, Mr. (of Pontefract): Evidence of 15,750–826. Twº EDALE, Mr. (of Dewsbury): Evidence of, 2900–18. V. VENTILATION: Of sewers insufficient, see Sewerage. VITRIol. WoRks: See Evidence of Mr. Leather, 9862–912. W. WADE, Dr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 283-315. WAKE FIELD : Witnesses examined. The Mayor, Mr. Rhodes, 1–85, 2114–8. Deputy Town Clerk, Mr. Morgan, 86–118. Inspector of Nuisances, Mr. Johnson, 152-282. Borough Surveyor, Mr. Lynam, 609-65. Late Borough Surveyor, Mr. Crutchley, 1096–1151. Manager of Waterworks Company, Mr. Sykes, 831– 1029, 1670–89. - Solicitor, do. Mr. Lumb, 1030–66. Consulting Chemist of ditto, Mr. Spencer, 1714–837 1982–205]. Registrar of Union, Mr. Stewart, 1642–70. Mr. Fowler, surgeon, 457–544. , Alderman Holdsworth, M.D., 544–608. ,, Milner, surgeon to Prison, 2124–70. , Statter, surgeon, 1152–221. Dr. Wade, 283-315. Dr. Wright, 21.71–98. Mr. Holmes, captain of dredger, 735–830. ,, G. Smith, do. do. 1222–334. , Woolass, aqueduct keeper, 666–734. ,, Teal, soap extractor, 316–456. , Wilson, soap maker, 1617–41. , Barker, worsted manufacturer, 1335–444, ,, Goldthorpe, do. 1445–1543. , Perkin, cocoa-nut matting manufacturer, 1544–616. , Dent, dyer, 1838–925. , Hick, copperas manufacturer, 1926–81. , Oakes, do. 119–45. , Roodhouse, do. 1067–95, , Childe, civil engineer, 1690–714. Col. Smyth, 2051–113, 2119–23. Rev. Mr. Bowditch, 21.99–201. Area and Population, 18, 86–92; 118 Table. Rateable value, 19, 88; Local Government, 90. Health and mortaliy; death-rate increasing, 1653, 1669–70 Table. Manufactures, 118 Tables. The dyeing trade for Bradford or Leeds has now left Wakefield on account of pollution of Calder, 10–11, 124–7, 1345. Sewerage incomplete, 20, 76, 85–6 Paper, 610–2, 633–5; plans of, old, 627–33, 1100–9. Sewers ill- ventilated, and ill-flushed, and very foul, 620–6; effect of bad ventilation of sewers of prison, 2141; outfall of sewers too low, 1105; private drains ill-constructed, 1110–3. Sewage passes into river, 85–86 Paper, 111; even sewage of asylum, 270–3, 563, 618, and of prison, 98, 253–8, 260–8, 561–2, 618, 2133. Cesspits done away with almost entirely, 160–6. Privies, cause of ill-health and fever, 167–99, 286–94, 182, 532–8 : difficulty of cleansing, 204-12; amount of contents an- nually removed, 167–73; in default of owners, cleansed by Corporation, 207; also exceptionally cleansed by Corporation from fear of cholera, 43–7; a better but more expensive plan for Corporation to undertake the entire work of cleansing, 213–6; on the whole privies improved. 157–8, Contents of workhouse privies put on land, 275. Waterclosets adopted for the rich, 99, 158, 200–3, 615–7; not for cottages, 202–3, 608. Slaughter-houses, 33–7, 217-24. Gasworks, 38–42. Water supply, from Calder below sewage outlet, see Water Supply. Rainfall, 1693, Gas works, 38–42. Becks, 543–4 Paper, 649–60. 3 R 2 500 RIVERS COMMISSION :—INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. [Numbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence ; when the reference is made to the numbers as used the second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] WALKYR, Mr., of Bradford : Lether from, 10,808–9. WATERCLos ETs : At Bradford 1,500 in number, 8845; at Castleford, nine, 15,988; at Dewsbury, few, 2243–4; at Halifax, 960 in number, 10,837, 12,454, 10,918–9; at Keighley, dis- countenanced by Local Board, 13,125, 13,869, 14,763–79. At Leeds 3,000, 6026, and are approved by local authorities, 64,6545–52; still not 100 in workmen’s houses, 6649, 7128; at Pontefract, 175, 15,385; at Skipton, one hundred, 15,212–28; at Wakefield, partially adopted, but not approved of by Local Board for cottages, 99, 158, 200–3, 608, 6.15-7 ; used at mills with advantage, 10,482-4. WATER-Power : 3297-3306, 3376*–78*, 3386–90, 3507–14, 4708–14, 8750–3, 10,956–9, 12,376–7, 14,051–5, 14,102–6. Diminished by solids thrown into the river, 11,942, 11,957–60, 14,099–100. WATER SUPPLY : H. For Towns. II. Value to Manufacture. III. In reference to Geological Strata. 1. For Towns: Bingley; springs collected into a reservoir, 13,472–4, 14,348–9. Bradford : see evidence of Mr. Leather, 10,165–8; of Mr. Gott, 8866–999, 8915–31, 9019–41; works owned by Corporation, 8866; supply unlimited, 883; volume daily consumed 2,000,000 gallons for domestic use at rate of 16 gallons per head of population and public use, and 2,500,000 of gallons for trade purposes, 8880–2; price for trade purposes, 8890–1. Well supply, precarious; old wells are drained by new wells sunk deeper, 9198, 9.281–9. Castleford : no regular supply; population resort to wells liable to infiltration of sewage and to be drained by col- liery pumpings, 16,508, 16,063–7, 16,215, 16,285–7, also to polluted river, 16.212–7, 16,285–91, 16,648–54, 16,669–75, 16,343 Paper, 16,357–60. Pollution of wells probably cause of cholera, 16,351–4. Dewsbury: 2223–7. Fartown ; only polluted stream, 4759–66, Halifax; see evidence of Mr. Norris, 10,853–900; in hands of Corporation and very good, 10,815–6, 11,237; total volume and in what proportion distributed for domestic and trade consumption, 10,870; economy of necessary, 10,876; deficiency of, has impeded development of trade, 10,996–7 ; contemplated exten- sion of, 10,877–81. Penalties under Local Acts for not sending sufficient compensation water down the Hebble Valley, 10,896–99. Huddersfield; see evidence of manager of works, Mr. Hare, 51.52–5214. In hands of independent Commis- sioners, 2947+–8*, 2951*–3*, 5201–6, 52.13–4; insuffi- cient, 3561–5, 5178–82, 51.93–4 ; reservoirs once ran dry, 5169. - Keighley; reservoirs in hands of Local Board, 13,110-9, see evidence of Mr. Booth, 13,211–60. Knaresboro’: polluted by sewage of Harrogate, 5771-87. Knottingley : used to be from river then pure, 16,721; now partly from wells liable to pollution, 16,356–60; partly from canal which has received sewage of Ponte- fract and other pollutions. Leeds: formerly by company from river Aire, 5436, 5999, 8326; now by Corporation from Wharfe, 60.18–9, 5437–9, 5598–5604, 5617; supply for domestic use unlimited and constant, 6033–4; volume used 16 gallons er head, 6006–9; and see evidence of Mr. Filliter, 5833–66. Volume supplied to manufacturers 500,000 gallons daily, 6007; charge 6d. per 1,000 gallons, 6021. Manufacturers want more and more, and their wells are failing, 6022–3, 6073–4; the richest sink the deepest wells, and so drain those of their neigh- bours, 7135–41. Quality, 5894–7, 8222. 10,071. Wharfe becoming polluted by sewage and manufactur- ing refuse, 589.3, 5898–902, 61.14–7, 7093–5,8187, and is peaty, 5916, 7151-2; can peatiness be prevented 2 6081–4. A new supply required of water, more pure, more soft, more abundant, 5893, 5903–4, 7090; proposed source, the Washburn, 5934–5, 5965–98, 5990–3, 81.88, 10,018–38, 10,071. Pontefract; See evidence of Mr. Turpin, 15,750–826; Ravensthorpe ; none, 311.3–8. Skipton ; See evidence of manager of works, Mr. Calvert, 14,923,15,008,15,295–308. A constant system by gravitation, 14,964–75. Usually 20 gallons per head, 14,960; but liable to run short, 15,241–2, 15,295–308. Thornhill; none. See evidence of Mr. Maddison, 2930–63, 2934, 3073–6, 3084–5. Villages; generally poor, streams, which are natural sources, being polluted, and artificial waterworks not yet having been established, 5469–70, 5557, 5604, 7299, 16,609. Bradford supplies neighbouring vil- lages, 7298. Halifax also, 10,892–3, 11,591–4. Wakefield. See evidence of manager of works, Mr. Sykes, 831–1029, 1670–89. Mr. Spencer, chemist, 1714–837, 1982–2051, and Paper by Mr. Whittam, 85–86. In hands of private company, 23, 56–60, 75, 867–83, 1052–5, 1165–8. Source of, as to one quarter springs, as to the remainder the river Calder at a point below the town after the river has received sewage and other pollutions of town, 834–5, 24–6, 77, 94, 272, 1060. The sewerage of town hitherto partial, but sewerage is being extended, and population and manufactures are likewise increasing, 20, 76, 78–80, 93, 111, 159, 163, 1063. Mode of procuring from the river, 1670–89. Water pumped into a reservoir after a fresh, 859–60, 913, 952–3, 1670–2; then deposits, 915; then upper part of water is passed. Formerly only one reservoir; when that was being cleaned out, water pumped directly from river into mains; additional reservoirs now constructed, 1670–89. Reservoir contains fish, 957–62; Water formerly unfiltered, 851–4, and was then dis- tinctly injurious, 461–71, 476, 505–6, 543–4 Paper; now filtered by Mr. Spencer's carbide process, 851–4. Process described, 898, 925–44, 998–1006, 1178–204. Cost of carbide, 1027–8. Effect of filtration ; a very fair water produced, not injurious to health, 114–8, 146–8, 311–5, 478, 495–6, 500, 515–24, 1160, 2191 ; but harder in consequence of process, 486–93, 570–3, 1008–24, 1464–6; and not to be trusted, 513–4, 2153; still contains nitrogenized organic matter, 2201. Ana- lyses, 987, 991–6, 1029. Volume of, supply constant and sufficient, 836–7, 862. Proportion of manufac- turing and domestic consumption, 840. Price of, 841–4. Possible rival schemes for, 884–96, 1066, 1713–4 Paper. Proposal for works to be bought up by county rate, 10,962–71. II. Value to manufacturers, 2553–6, 5912–5, 6054–5, 7102–8, 71.43–5, 7584,7933–41, 8812,9062, 10,996–7, 11,238–40. Cost of wells to individual manufacturers, 9135–7,9160–7, 91.93–8,9289–93, 11,109,11,136–43, 11,668, 12,208; of private reservoirs, 12,208; of water from reservoirs made by combinations amongst manu- facturers, 4873–83; of water bought from public waterworks, 1462, 1470–1, 2513–6, 2735–9, 7274, 8890–1, 10,214–7. 11,134–43, 11,290–3, 11,374–7, 11,658–74, 12,094–100. Litigation concerning, 2329–7, 2510, 3428, 3696–708, 3822, 6303, 8697, 9118, 9642, 9933–9, 9958–4, 10,909, 11,775–84, 12,013. Volume of water used by individual manufacturers, 1377, 2754a– 59, 2829–30, 3435°–43*, 3632, 3638–43, 4290,4579, 4846–8, 4889–93, 4903, 5294, 6782, 6806–7, 6848–54, 6877, 6951–76, 7930, 8472, 8490–506, 9135, 91.54–8, 9269–80, 9722, 9905–10, 10,294, 10,384, 10,471, 10,756, 11,024, 11,234, 11,292, 11,609, 11,842, 12,094–100, 12–336. III. In reference to Geological Strata. a. From coal measures variable; contains iron at Wake- field, 1459–60; is hard at Wakefield, 147, 487–8, 1480–2, 1707, 1712–3, 35.17–20, 3953; at Halifax, 11,670–4, 11,733–41; at Bradford, 10,471–6. Pure at Leeds 8356–76, 83,99–401, 10,472–3. Alkaline, at Castleford, 16,516–7; at Leeds, 5844–5. 8. From magnesian limestone; bad : is impregnated with lime at Knottingley, 16,518–22, 16,612–9, 15,700–1, 15,821–2; at Pontefract, 16,357–8. y. From millstone grit. Is good and soft at Bradford, 913.5–7, 10,297, 10,471; at Halifax, 12,336, 12,354–9; at Keighley, 13,274–5; at Sowerby Bridge, 1706; from the Washburn, 5931–4 WEATHERHILL Mr. J., (of Batley): in hands of Commissioners, 15,363–5; from a well, not constant, 15,762; hard and quite insufficient. 15,694–701, 15,821–2, 15,865–8, 16,633. Private wells occasionally infiltrated with sewage, 16,649–54. Evidence of 2312–62. WEIRs : On the Aire, 5770 Paper; on Bradford beck cause flood- ing, 8912; action of in time of flood, 5755–9, 7397–S. RIVERS COMMISSION :--INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. 501 [Numbers 2919–3467 are repeated in the Evidence ; when the reference is made to the numbers as used the second time, the numbers are distinguished by an asterisk.] WHITHAM, Mr., (of Wakefield): Paperby, 85–6. WIGHTMAN, Dr. (of Halifax): Evidence of, 10,809–37. Wilkinson, Mr. (of Castleford), Agent of Aire and Calder Navigation Company: Evidence of 16,121-99. Wilson, Mr. (of Leeds), Secretary of Aire and Calder Navi- gation Company: - Evidence of, 7468–505. Wilson, Mr., (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 1617–41. WILso N, Mr. W. (of Castleford): Evidence of, 16,484–517. WIRE MANUFACTURE : See evidence of Mr. F. Smith of Halifax, 11,283-361. Refuse from, oxide of iron, and green vitriol, and spent sulphuric acid, thrown into river, 11,344. Wood, Mr., (of Dewsbury): Evidence of 2.202–260. Woop, Mr. W. (of Pontefract): Evidence of, 15,704–749. Wool, MANUFACTURE : For general information concerning, see evidence of Mr. Hirst, secretary of Chamber of Commerce at Leeds, 7877–7922; Mr. Mellor, president of Chamber of Commerce at Huddersfield, 41.47–4285; Mr. Ripley, president of Chamber of Commerce at Bradford, 10,435–639; statistics by Mr. Behrens, vice-president, 10,808–9. Weight of wool used by individual manufacturers, 1504, 2578–9,3570, 4182, 4319, 4583–91, 4848, 6847, 7270,9178–85,9265–8,9902, 10,400, 10,566–7, 11,053 11,110, 11,383, 11,616, 12,108, 12,226, 12,335. 14,493, 14,524. Process of washing, 1394, 1402, 1507, 3615, 3644, 7239–60, 14,436, 14,540–3, 10,421–34, 14,506–10. See also Grease Extraction, Dye Waste, Liquid. Un- washed wool before scouring will, if soaked, yield potash, 371–7, 442–7. Much wool waste in river, 756–63, 1540–3, 4643–54. Wool, MANUFACTURERs: Witnesses examined, At Bradford, Mr. Godwin, 8659–727. xx ,, Mitchell, 946.3—504. -- ,, Ripley, 10,435–639. ,, Dewsbury, Mr. Auty, 2585–2675. 35 ,, Ellis, 2676–823. , Halifax, Mr. Beaumont, 12,580–95. Clay, 11,720–824. D. Clay, 12,196—248. -> -> -> -> At Halifax, Mr. Cronhelm, 11,896–985. John Crossley, 10,992–11,144. Rawson, 12,125–95. -> , Shaw, 12,331–412. , Huddersfield, Mr. Armitage, 3675–807. H. Brooke, 3504–674. T. Brooke, 4816–969. Crosland, 4500–64. Crowther, 4565–705. Kenyon, 3808–903. Mellor, 41.47–285, 5387–400. -> ,, Wrigley, 5004–113. , Leeds, Mr. Alderman Carter, 7000–161. -- -- -- Yewdall, 7163-229. See also Dyers, Worsted Manufacturers. -> -- -> -> -> -- -> -> -- -> -- -> Wool Ass, Mr. (of Stanley Ferry, near Wakefield): Evidence of, 666–734. WoRosworth, Mr. (of Pontefract): Evidence of, 15,634–15,703a. WoRFolk, Mr. (of Knottingley): Evidence of, 16,688–750. WoRMALD, Mr. (of Dewsbury): Evidence of 3134–3257. WoRSTED MANUFACTURE. For general information concerning, see evidence of Mr. Ripley, 10,452–65, 10,559–64, and statistics of Mr. Behrens, 10,808-9. Witnesses examined : At Bradford, Mr. Anderton, 10,262–322. -- , Illingworth, 10,373–434. , Halifax, Mr. Child, 1 1,825–95. Holdsworth, 11,362–493. * >, ,, Morris, 12,291–330. , Keighley, Mr. Brigg, 13,981–14,108. Clough, 14,365–454. Graham, 14,763–99. Townend, 14,179–329. Laycock, 14,330–364. -> ,, Marriner, 14,453–515. -- ,, Sugden, 14,516–96. , Skipton, Mr. Dewhurst, 14,800–63. And see Dyers, Woollen Manufacturers. WoRTH River, 13,178–84, 13,188–94. WRIGHT, Dr. (of Wakefield): Evidence of, 21.71–98. WRIGLEY, Mr. (of Huddersfield): Evidence of, 5004–113. -> -- -> -> -> ** -- xx -- -> Y. YEwBALL, Mr. Alderman (of Leeds): Evidence of, 7163-7299. 3 R 3 6 L ON DO N : Printed by GEoRGE E. EYRE and WILLIAM Spottiswoopy, Printers to the Queen's most Excellent Majesty. For Her Majesty's Stationery Office. 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