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THE GIFT OF - º ſiliſillunultitutuluſ it. {}- Tullulºtundruttuttumultitutputrintinuittitutulluſtrinutrinutritut [[III] |Iſſil } ſe a = № ·%?~{{I\INȚIIIIIIIIIIIIIII[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ſífffffffffffffffffhĪLĪĪĪĪĪĪĪĪĪĪĪĪĪĪĪĪĪĪĪſ; Jº J ºr-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º-º. ------------------------------------- Illiſi ||||||||||||Illilillllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll [Ice a ze = < * = - a. s. a = - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - • • • • • • • • • • • • Elliſtminºlul Fº- HT G4 %ms (J, S-25-3. I N D E X. STATEMENT OF: Mr. A • H FURTHER STATEMENT OF: Mr. F. STATEENT OF: Mr. Ed F. Firmin (Continued) - - - - - - - - - LO'76 f \ A 7. R. Barclay O O C C C C C C C C D C B © O C C C Q C. log4 Q. Post • - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ll32 1076 l, MEETING OF THE JOINT COMMISSION ON POSTAL SERVICE. Post Offices and Post Roads Committee Room, United States Capitol, W . Washington, D.C. , Wednesday, May 4, 1921, The Commission met at ll o'clock a.m., pursuant to adjournment . PRESENT: Senators Townsend (Chairman), and Walsh; Representatives Steener son, Bell, Rouse and Paige ; and John G. Koons. Mr. E. H. McDermot, Secretary, and Mr. Frederick G. Riedesel, Assistant Secretary. * * * P R O C E E D I N G S. The Chairman: We will proceed now, gentlemen. Mr. Firmin, you may proceed to finish the statement that you had prepared. *** * * STATEMENT OF Mr. A. F. FIRMIN, (Cont'd.) Mr. Firm; in: Mr. Chairman, I think I had completed my statement, unless there are questions to be asked. ko'77 . The Chairman: There are one or two things that are hardly pertinent to what you have said, and with which you may not be familiar, but it pertains to our roseign mail, and not to the post office orders. Mr. Firmin: Yes, sir. The Chairman: Are you acquainted somewhat with the Panama Postal Conference that was held–––for in- stance, they had a meeting at Madrid, last November. Mr. Firmin: Yes. The Chairman: At which a treaty, or an agreement was made , whereby the proceeds of the local country Carried that mail, to its destination in snother Country that was a party to that conference or convention. I am wondering if you knew anything about how that is work- ing? Mr. Firmin: No. sir; I am not qualified to speak on that at all. The Chairman: The United States has practically made arrangements With nearly all South Añerican Republics, and with Spain, and I think some other countries. I am a member of that conference , It is not a Congressional Conference, but I was put upon that conference, a sub- lo'78 oommitte, having charge of communications by mail. You don't know anything about that? Mr. Firmin : No, sir; I am not qualified to speak at al. We could obtain information for you from our foreign section, if you wish. We could readily do that , The Chairman: " I don't think that is necessary for this investigation. I was just interested , When you were discussing our fiscal relations with foreign countries, to know how that was progressing. Of course, We have to Wait upon some of the Countries for legislative action before that can be approved, but it is being approved very rapidly , and other European nations are Considering the proposition of joining. I think it is a very excellent idea, when the time comes, that We can pay the ordinary postage here , the same postage that we would pay, for instance, from Washington to New York, and if We were sending that letter to Madrid, Spain, we would still pay only the same postage. Mr. Firmin: . It would be a matter of great public Convenience, The Chairican: A matter of great public convenience. f We are working on that. 1079 Mr. Firmin: No! I am not qualified to speak at all. The Chairman: Did the Postal Savings Law have any effoot on our exchange through. money orders? N Mr. Firmin: Only in this respect ; that prior to the exactment of the Postal Savings Law, we sent money orders to Italy, the proceeds to be deposited to the credit of the remitters in the Postal Savings Bank. with the establishment of our own postal savings system, these Italians have deposited their money in our banks, instead of sending it home. The Chairman: I supposed that would work out that Way, and I Was wondering if that had any effect on our money orders. Mr. Firmin: The volume of the business? The Chairman: Yès. Mr. Firmſ, in: It would have some , shut not a very large effect, because the orders were not sufficiently numerous. " The Italians have resorted to the postal Savings system in very large numbers. We have many Italian depositors. Triat is true in New York, and I think it is true throughout the country. The Chairman: Yes; the postal savings have increas— * 1080 ed., and the theory was that these postal savings banks were going to be utilized by foreigners who did not have faith in our banks, but did have faith in the Post Office. Mr. Firmin: T Liat, is true, and We find that among our depositors are people of all ranks, outside of the very rich, but among the American-born people, there are artisans, as well as laborers, clerks, school teachers, people of all Walks of life, Who deposit their money with us. Just at present We are experiencing the result Cf hard times, particularly in New York. A very large percentage of our depositors are Hebrews employed in t; he olothing, and millinery and kindred industries, and there has been a period of very except ional depression in those industries during the last few months. TLlere have been lock-outs and there have been strikes and labor difficulties, and the people have not deposited as freely as they formerly did, and there have been withdrawals, too, to a Considerable extent . *- We have on deposit in New York approximately $50,000,000 in the postal savings, and we were increasing those deposits up to the commencement of this period of 1081 depression approximately, I should say, from memory, $750,000 or $800,000 a month. Just within the last few months We have not increased considerably, We have Oeen practically stationary as to our deposits, The Chairman: Do yov have direct connection. With your postal savings down there? Bysterſ. Mr. Firmin: Praiatically I am: the /head of the costal savings system. . Tne Chairman: Have you any suggestions to make With regard to a possible amendment to the post al. Savings law ë.S to increasins tile amount of die posit S, or anything else affecting the administration of that die partment 7 Mr. Firmin: Of course, the matter of interest directly concerns the depositors, and for a considerable period following the enactment of the postal savings act, the savings banks were paying about three and a half per cent. I am speaking of New York. I am not acquainted With the situation elsewhere . The Chairiſian: That is about the average . Mr. Firm, in: We pay the depositors two per cent . Now, the difference between the two per cent and lC82 the three and a half per cent, in such sums as the average aerositor places in the bank was off set by the feeling of security that the depôsitor had, in the faith of the United States being pledged for his deposits. - .* During the war there was a feeling on the part of The foreign-born, particularly, of uncertainty in respect to the savings banks, and they were very gladi to have , as a harbor of refuge , the postal savings, in which they had absolute confidence , and there was no particular Criticism; then that our interest was not——— The Qhairman: Sufficient? Mr. Firmin: –––as high as the interest of the banks. Just why, I don't knowl, but it is a fact, that since the war they have seemed to have regained their confi- dence in the local savings banks, and as the banks are paying four per cent interest, and the Government is paying but two per cent interest, the difference is greater than it was formerly, and there is ſtore or less Criticism, and I think that it militates against the postal savings system. Now, there is a feature of the interest, in respect * lC)83 * to the postal savings, that the depositors complain of , and that is the practice of the Government in not crediting interest except annually. Some of the banks * will credit interest at the end of six months, or rather, at the end of a six months' perios, so that if a man Withdraws his account at the end of a six-months' period, he will lose the interest for the six months only——or, Father he will be credited with the interest for the Six months. In the case of the Government, the interest is not Credited until the beginning of the month following the deposits. If he withdraws at the eleventh month, or What would be the twenty-third month———that is , the eleventh month after the money has been on deposit a year---he loses the interest for the eleven months. Now, at the bank, he would only lose the interest for five months. In addition to that, as you will recall, our postal savings deposits are represented by certificates, which We give Go the depositors. We do not give pass books. We give certificates. * Now, it may happen that a depositor will deposit $50, and having deposited that $50 1084 and secured a $50 certificate, , he may wish, during the eleventh month, to withdraw about $10. Yet , in ordier to withdraw that #10, he must lose the interest on the $50. Now, I have submitted to the Department very recent– ly——they haven't yet acted upon it, as far as I know--- • suggestion along the line of a coupon certificate that I think would probably pe———Well, I think it would over- come this difficulty, and I think it is practicable. I am not in a position to say definitely UIlat it Would be practicable, decause I am, not sufficiently a cºauainted Uhth the details of the Department account ing in Washington, so far as the local offices are concern— ed I feel confident that it would be practical, and I haven't any doubt, but what the Department will, in time , £ive the matter ºne ºr attention and pass upon it, but that is à, feature that does militate against the postal savings System. 3. The Chairman: And you say you have made a recommenda- tion on this subject 7 Mr. Firmin: Just quite recently; yes, sir. Mr. Rouse : Will you explain that coupon system? lO85 Mr. Firmin: Yes; the coupon system that I have in mind is a certificate approximately the same dimensions as our present certificate , with a permanent Certificate at one end. * Mr. Rouse : that would give the diepositor the right to withdraw so much? Mr. Firmin: A part of his deposit . >< Mr. Rouse : Without losing the interest on the rest? Mr. Firmain: That is the idea . Mr. Rouse : I underst and . Mr. Firm.in : It is something like a coupon bond raight be———just as you would have the main bond, and ooupons for every six ſºonths. In vals inst ance, you Would have the main certificate , and coupons on it that Could be surrendered. TCie Chairman: It looks Go me feasible, but as you say, I don't know what all the workings of the Depart— ment are in reference to this matter. Mr. Paige : Would Uriat have a tendency to cause depositors to withdraw their money more frequently than they otherwise would? Mr. Firmin: Well, it might , but at the same time I 1086 don't think that that should operate against it, be- cause when a man withdraws, it is oecause he needs the money, and I think we would be in the same position that a savings bank is , and , of course, the surrender of the certificate would be a very simple matter, and the paying over of the money. - It would be simpler then the pro sent method of taking back the large certificates, and handling out small Certificates. The Chairman: That brings up a question that I want to ask in connection with that; one of the complaints that We have heard has been that the post office was made a check-room; now to a large extent for postal savings depositors; that in a great ºf any cases, they deposited the money in the morning ana dre W it out at night, , or the next morning or the next day. T fley use it as an a.C Commodiation temporarily. Do you meet With that 7 Mr. Firmin: We lo meet that in a degree, and it is a troublous matter to deal with. I don't think that any large percentage of our depositors do it, considering the very great volume of our depositors. As I have sº 14” LO87 tº- f said, we have £50,000,000 in New York, and I think that the percentage of depositors who do that is small , We meet a peculiar condition at one of our stations, Where there are colored depositors. TIley live in furnish— ed rooms, and they get pala on Saturday night, and they find if they leave their money home, or their good clothes at horſe, that other lodgers steal Unem, so , on Saturday night , When they get paid, they go to the pawn shop and redeem their good clothes, which they wear over Sunday, and on Monday, they re-pawn their good clothes, and then, so their money won't be stolen, they deposit that in the postal savings, but that is a pe Culiar condition that occurs only in this negro section. The NChairman : I am wondering now, if you had the coupon system, whereby they could draw out a portion of their money When they wanted it, whether the burden upon the Department would be greater than the compensating results that could be acquired? Mr. *** I think it would be less, for this reason; if 8, aerosites demands it now, We ſaust give him Cert; if iCates of small denomination, as of a dollar, or two dollars, and as I have previously said, the percent- LO88 age of people who do these extraordinary things is so small, as compared with the great number of depositors We are: serving, that I think we should be guided by the good of the many, rather than by the exceptional cases. & The Chairman: Have you suggested all this in your report and your recommendations to the Department? Mr. Firm in : Not in the suggest ion about the coupons, nos but in various Ireports to the Department the se things have been discussed, and I think the Department is ranaias With the situation • In fact, in correspondence covering a variety of subjects, at different times, all these ſcatters have been dealt with . You asked me formerly 8, assºon about the interest . Of course, the Department is confronted With the diff i- culty as to the interest, that if it did raise the inter- est to approximately the savings oank i' iterest , it would uniquestionably affect. The banks greatly . I haven't any Cioubt of that . Mr. Rouse: Would you advise increasing the rate of interest 7 - us. Firmin: I really do not feel as though I can airlsWel: the t . It is a matter that deals with such a very > 1089 great guestion that it is one that I don't really feel sºcialsº to answer. It covers really the finances of the country, and the banks, and influences that are so complex and se weighty, that I feel, it is an administrat- ive rº,8tter. Mr. Paige: Isn't it a fact that there is more money being drawn from savings banks at the present time , than at any other time, owing to several causes, one , the financial condition of the people , and another, the Opportunity to invest in these industrial Securities which pay Six and seven per C ent 7 Mr. Firmin: | Yes, Sir. Mr. Paige: And withdrawals from savings banks are getting to the point where it may be serious, because their funds are aii loaned out on real estate——— practically 60 to 70 per cent of them. Mr. Firmin: that is the situation in New York. Mr. Peige: And I think it would be a great detri- ment to the savings banks, rather than an advantage to the depositors. Mr. Firmin: Yès, sir. Mr. Koons: Do you. Uhink on the small deposits that LO90 A the chairman mentioned, put in in the morning, and taken ** \ out at night, or put in at night and taken out in the morning, it would be practicable to charge a small fee; that is to say, where it is only deposited for 34 hours or 48 hºurs? - Mr. Firmin: Yes; that could be acne. Mr. Koons: My understanding is that before they had the postal savings, that they used the money or— der instead of the postal savings. In other words, a man would buy a money order and keep it over night, and get it cashed the next morning. Of course, he had to pay a fee there. Mr. Firmin: The percentage of those cases is very, very anal. It would be entirely practicable from an operating standpoint to charge such a fee, if the Department desired to do it . A documentary Stamp could be attached to the certificate, Oi! some Such plan could be adopted. There is nothing impracticable about it . Mr. Paige: HOW is the money invested that is deposit— ed in postal, savings? tº Mr. Firmin; We aeposit it in banks that paykus two and a half per cent interest, and then the law pro- 1091 vides further, for the purchase of bonds and so on. Mr. Paige: Now, what would you say to this proposi- tion---I don't know whether you care to answer it or not— what would you say as to the policy of loaning money & for building purposes for housing all over the country. I understana there was a bill introduced in the House that the money deposited in savings banks should be loan- ed out for building operations. Isn't that so, Mr. Steenerson? Hasn't Mr. Kelly introduced a bill that the deposits in the postal savings should be invested in housing propositions? Mr. Steenerson: Oh, yes; it is a very extensive scheme, and it was my purpose to refer it to the Committee, of Which the gentleman from Massachusetts Would be Chairman. Mr. Paige: I Would like to know what you think of that . º Mr. Firmin: Well, sir; it embraces so many features that I don't think I am qualified to answer it. It is one of those questions of policy on the part of the Government, and while I am generally inclined to favor the extension of the postal savings system, and the grant– i093 **, as or were additional interest to the depositors--- not up to the full bank interest---I don't think we should do that. I don't feel that I can, with justice as to myself, answer without further studiy • - Mr. Paige: You wouldn't say at a time when private individuals anči corporations cannot afford to build on account of the extreme prices of labor &nd building waterial, that it would be a good proposition for the government at this time to go into it? - -* Mr. Firm in : I am inclined to let the natural law govern those matters. * Mr. Paige: That is in the line of making the government the goat, as in a great many other proposi- tions. Mr. Steenergon: You can go out West; you have a great many trees and stones, and a lot of vacant, fer— tile land out there. While you are on this matter here, and before you pass “, I Want Sto call attention to the fact that Mr. Madden introduced a bill. With regard to the reserve that the se savings banks had . . . The Chairman: Postal savings banks. 1093 Mr. Steenerson: To be invested in bonds. Mr. Firmin: Government bonds? Mr. steenessen. Yes; and that was recommended to this Commission, or these engineers, and I had the bill referred to the Department, and I got a note from therſ, to the effect that the Treasury was interested, and that they had requested time in which to make some examina– tion of it, and for that reason the bill has never been Ireturned to the Committee. - Mr. Firmin: Taat would seem to be more feasible than the other plan, Mr. Ste ener son: Yes, bit evidently the Treasury fakes special interest in this savings bank system. , be- cause it affects the finances of the whole Count Ty . Mr. Paige: Your idea is that it would be a better idea for the Government to invest the money in Govern— ment bonds than to go into the building proposition? Mr. Firmin: I do . The Chairman: Are there any further questions? (No response.) 1094 FURTHER STATEMENT OF Mr. F. R. BARCLAY, Post Office Inspector. The Chairman: You desire to make a diurther statement, Mr. Barclay? Mr. Barclay: Yes, sir. In connection with lir. Kiely's statement yesterday, Mr. Chairman, he estimated for delivery by the tubes a letter would have to be rease in the box before 2 o'clock, and that about 60 per cent of the collections and drop mail were mailed after 2 o'clock. Now, I think it would run 75 per cent of the collec- tions and drops from 4. o'clock on, and from 2 o'Clock on, to certainly run 80 per cent . I thought it would be advisable at this time to put in the record just what the New York office is doing on the collection of drop mail and the distribution of City mail . I have here a report of the Grand Central Station, March 31, 1931, which shows that the collection and drop mail was all upon the primary cases at l; 40 a.m.; that the city rea from the collections and drops, on the morning of April let, was all up that was in at that 1095. time; that the train mail in up to that time was up at 3 a.r.s , indicating that theree was time for all the city mail from the collections and drops, oſ; the night of March 31, to reach the stations in time for the first delivery • y Mr. Steenerson: To reach the postal stations? Mr. Barclay : Yes, sir. Now, on the night of April 1st , at Grand Central S*ation,--—these are the heaviest nights in the Iāonth, the end of the quarter---the Collections and drops Were all up on the cases at l;45 a.m. Mr. Sweenerson: What do you mean by "drops"? Mr. Barclay: Where you put it in through a slot in the post office. The drop mail is that which is put in through the slot in the corridor. Mr. Steen erson: As distinguished from that which is put in the boxes? Mr. Barclay : Yes. Mr. Ste enerson: And those need no carriers; they are taken up by the clerks? Mr. Barclay : That is it. Just dropped through a \ slot in the corridor. J.O.96 Mr. Steener son: whereas the letter in the box has to be collected by carrier and brought to the post office? Mr. Barclay : Yes, sir. Mr. Steener son: Well, there isn't so many of those drops, are there? • Mr. Barclay: There are at some places. At City Hall they drop from 300,000 to 250,000 a day, I believe , The Chairman: What I underst and the Witness is saying is that all this class of mail, , taken from the boxes, and out of the drops, is disposed of before l : 30 8, , ſ: , $ 2 Mr. Steenereon: . I understood that was the point , but I wanted to be sure I understood the term. * Mr. Barclay : On the morning of April 2nd, at Grand Central, the collection and drop mail was all up on the City Cases, station distribution, at l a • m. ; train mail received up to that time, was up, ready for the st at ions at 3 a.m. & Mr. Ste enerson: Now again, What station do you refer to in that case? Tile train mail, you Say, Was º § ready; for the station, the postal station or the rail— los? reas station? * e Mr. Barclay : This is the city ſail coming in from the trains, distributed on the city cases to the stations, where it is further distributed to the carrier routes. Mr. Steenezson: And the carrier routes begin——— Mr. Barclay. At the station. Mr. Steenerson: At the postal stations? Mr. Barclay: Yes, sir. f At City Hall on the night of March 31st, the Collection and are: mails were up at l ;05 a.m. . , the city rails, on station cases Were up at 3 a.m. ; train mail was up on station oases at l a.m. --- On the night of April 1st, at City Hall, collections and drop mails were up on primary Cases at l ; 35 a.m. The Chairman: When is your first carrier service? § Mr. Barclay: 7:45 a.m. On the night of April list, at City Hall, the collec- tions and arop mail was up at 3 a.m.; train mails Were ºup at 1 a.m., for the stations. At Hudson Terminal, on the night of March 31st , the dollection and drop mails were up on primary cases at 1:30 a.m. ; the city mails were up at 2 a.m. on the * 1098 station cases. . - On the night of April, list, at Hudson Terminal, the collection and drop mails were up at 12:10 a.m.; the city mails were up, primarily, at 13 midnight . - There was some mailing that came in after that , but the bulk mails were up at 12 midnight on the night of April list . At the general post office on the night of March 31st, the collection and drops were up at 1:30 a.m. On the night of April let, the city mails were up at 3 a.m. ; the train mails were up at 4 a.m. On the night of April 1st, at the general post of- fice, the collections and drop mails were up at l; 30 a.m., and the City cases, collections and drop mails, Were up at 3 a.m. ; train mails at 5 a.m. The Chairman: Have you covered all the stations in New York? Mr. Barclay : Those are the main distributing Stations; City Hall, Grand central, Rasen Terminal, the General-Post Office. That is where the main oollections are centered to: distribution for outgoing and city delivery, 109s Mr. Paige: What was Mr. Kiely's testimony--- I aon's just call it, to mind–––as compared to yours? Mr. Barclay. At Hudson Terminal on the night of iſ arch 31st , mails received there were on the floor from 20 minutes to, 30 àinutes before they went on the face- up table for straightening for the canceling iſ achine • There were 3b sacks from 5.56 o'clock to o, 30 o'clock--- that is 34 ºutes: 22 sacks from 6:ll oë'clock to 6:40 o'clock, 29 minutes; 21 sacks from 6:l4 o'clock to * ! 6:44 o'clock, 30 minutes---that the mail remained on the floor before it got on the table. At; the same t; itàe the postmark, 7 o'clock postmark, Was not completed on the primary case until 7: 35 o'clock. The Chairman: Triat was too late to get it into the Cal Tier Service? Mr. Barolay: No , that is outgoing mail; 7: 35 p. ſ. In the first place, the collection mails were on the floor for 30 to 40 minutes before they got on the table for straightening. After they were canceled, they reñained stationary for 35 to 30 m.inutes Oefore they Went. Through the cases. Mr. Rouse: Did you state that 80 per cent of the { ll.00 $ mail was deposited after l, : 30 in the afternoon? Mr. Barclay: After 1 : 30. I think it would run that. I just stated 75 per cent from 4 o'clock on, and , there certainly would be another five per cent from 3 o'clock to 4. * Mr. Rouse : And Wnat time does the last delivery leave the office? Mr. Barclay : 3:45. Mr. Rouse: And the first trip is about 7:45? Mr. Barclay : 7:45. Mr. Steenerson: IS that the last delivery in New York? 2. Mr. Barclay : 3:45. Mr. Steenerson: 2 : 45? Mr. Barclay: 3:45. Mr. Koons' question, I believe, disclosed that a letter to be mailed in a street box up to 2 o'clock, Would connect for defivery the same day was: the tube System, and that if it was mailed after 2 o'clock, it wouldn't connect anyhow. That was the understanding. The Chairman: Well, isn't that the fact? Mr. Barclay: I believe it is, but there would be ll.0l 80 per cent after 2 o'clock, which would go through the terminals, and be at the station for aelivery in the morning. * The Chairman: So you don't conceive that the tube system would be of any advantage in expediting the mail? Mr. Barclay : No , sir, I aianº say that. There would be sorge rea that would be expedited by the tubes. How much I have not had opportunity to determ.ine. The Chairman: Why haven't you? Mr. Barclay: I have never had any instructions to make an investigation of the tube system. The Chairman: Who prepared this report on the tube System that you have in your report f Mr. Barclay. iſir. Johnson, I believe , The Chairman: Who prepared the report on the separation of parcel post from other mail? Mr. Barclay: TLe introductory? The Chairman: Who prepared the part we have here on that subject 7 Ms. Barclays Mr. Johnson prepared the introductory and the Delivery Division prepared the details later on. The Chairman: Who represents the delivery division ll.02 asseſ Mr. Barclay: Mr. McGurty, and Mr. Lubin, The chairman Who prepared that part of additional space and facilities? Mr. Barclay: Mr. Schardt. The Chairman: And who the comparison of the mail boxes, the distributing boxes? Mr. Barclay: I did. * . The Chairman: You prepared that 7 Mr. Barclay: Yes, sir. The chairman: And the back-stamping? -* Mr. Barclay: I aa. The Chairman: Steamboat and sea post harbor ser– vice? Mr. Barclay: Part of that was prepared by Mr. Sohardt, and another section by the Delivery Division, and a section by the mailing division. The Chairman: Who represents that? Mr. Barclay: Mr. Lubin and Mr. McGurty, The Chairman: And who prepared the motor vehicle report 7 * Mr. Barclay: That was prepared by Mr. Norris' of 1103 fice, the superintendent of Mails, § The Chairman: Now, I want to ask you again, waether the se ruports as prepared, Were concurred in by all of your Committee? Ms. Barolay: No , sir, the chairman: Yesterday I asked a question as to what ouildings your Committee reported as necessary in the City of New York to meet the present conditions . I understood the witness who testified to say that all that would be required in addition to the two buildings now under construction would be at 30th street and Pennsylvania Station——— Mrs Barclay: With consideration to the City Hall district, Senator? The Chairman: Well, What other buildings in the City of New York do you recommend as emergent? Mr. Barclay: Now, the City Håll is emergent ; station space is emergent. We figured 73,500 additional for the stations in general. Now, we have been consider- ing the space question on a 30-year basis, the same as the engineers were considering the space question--- on a 30-year basis. llo4 Now to make a recommendation as to what buildings are emergent depends on whether we go on a 10-year basis or a 20-year basis, It wouldn't require the same amount; of space right at this time, on a 10-year basis, that it would to look forward for twenty years, The Chairman: Well, have you studied that out so as to report to this Commission what your views are, what advice you can give us as to the tube plan, on a lo–year basis and on a 30-year basis? Mr. Barclay: Well, it could be done; yes, sir. we have been going on the basis of 30 years. Now, ten years would meana revision of the figures to determine enat additional space would be required for terminal facilities at the railroads for ten years. Tſhe sta- tions, of course, are separate and apart from the terminals, and the ir space would increase as the present leases ex- pire. That would be, a year to year proposition. Now, whether it could oe figured out that an additional build- ing woula answer for ten years———the foreign station is not very well taken care of . The foreign station will need new quarters. Well, it should have new quarters ll.O5 as soon as they can be provided. At the same time, they are getting along. That would require, for 30 years, 300,000 square feet. For ten years, it wouldn't require so much. The additional facilities for the general post crºss, the space for the inquiry division, the space for the auditor's office, the space for a supply room, which is summed up here as 236,000 feet, it would take 300,000 of it for general facilities at the building. Then, with 300,000 feet for the foreign station, that Twould make 400,000 feet , to start with. - We have not decided how far these requests could be reduced to go on a 10-year basis, if it was decided to put it all in one building, say, on the Grand Central plan at 30th Street, instead of two buildings, one at Grand Central and one at Pennsylvania. That could be prepared and submitted to you, if you so desire. The Chairman: I think it is important that the Commission should know that, because if I get the drift of you gentlemen's statements here, as a rule, things 8,I'é running along pretty Well, now, if it was a little more efficient, if you had a few more clerks, so that mail. Would not have to lie on the floor for 20 to 40 | ll.06 minutes because of ices of efficiency on the part of the present employes or because of 8, lack of a suffic— ient number of employee. Those things taken into Con- sideration, as I have understood you gentlemen, you are getting along pretty well in New York. Mr. Barclay: I think the supervisor of mails here today would say the general movement of mails in New York is regular. * The Chairman: Ana where is no occasion for ex- pediting the mail? - Mr. Barclay : It can be expedited further by more intensive application and more organization. The Chairman: In the present quarters? Mr. Barclay: In the present quarters the first class mail has not been delayed in New York at any time by lack of facilities, as we stated in the report to the Postmaster General. The facilities were not used. Mail is not delayed by lack of facilities until all possible - facilities are used. z.- . " * - * * º, & : Y & ; : * , s' T. & $: * $ * re-r J. : $ * $ ... ºut of O. º .* # * # * * º l t ºr \, 1107 The chairman: What we would like to get from this Postal Committee, if we could have it, is its views as to { What additional space, if any, is needed in New York, with the understanding that the present facilities are properly used and an efficient service maintained. It is less ex- pensive for us to get an efficient administration than it is to put up an extra building, and it is a serious prob— lem to us at the present time to get a building, get appropriations for buildings, and I don't Trant to recommend the building of any structure unless the exigencies of the occasion require it in order to expedite properly the -* mails, in the city of New York, or any other city, so far as that is concerned . Now, the proposition of the engineers upon which you have been reporting is for a 30-year service, looking ahead twenty years. We should take into consideration, of course, the possibility of giving service in the future, getting the buildings, and so on, the sites for the buildings, but we must take into consideration also the condition of the Treasury, and if we can give a ten-year service, that is a helpful outlook. That would be the policy, in my judgment, £or the Government to employ, but first of all, we want an \ \ 1108 Bwrth efficient conduct of the service now, to employ all of .* -- \ * the facilities that we have at the present. Thirt is what We are after, and I am sure every member of the Commission Aº, wants information on that subject, because that is a dif- ficult problem for us to solve, and we are asking you and these other gentlemen to look into that question. Mr. Paige: 'I understood you to say that all the facilities were not used. Wny is that? Why tº ,are not all of the facilities used? Mr. Barclay: They were not being used——— Mr. Paige: Why? That is a very important fact to know, when you are asking for more facilities, If the present facilities are not used, why? Mr. Barclay: The present facilities are all used now. They were not used in the fall of 1919 when the first class mails were being delayed. The first class mails have been handled regularly now, in the general channels, since the first of January, l030, and since that time the facilities have been used t; O CapaCity . They Were not used before that . Mr. Ste enerson: What was it that was idle? Mr. Barclay: I beg pardon? \ * , ll.09 Mr. Steenerson: You say the facilities were not used. At that time what facilities were idle, unused? i Mr. Barclay: The facilities now in use at Madison Square station. $ The Chairman: What aa they consist of 7 Mr. Barclay. It consists of floor space suffic– ient to handle 300,000 cancelations a day on the primary cases, which was necessary to relieve the Grand Central stat ion • In October, 1919, The Grand Central station the collections were on the floor from two to four hours before they would get on the face—up tables to go through the machines. The same Condition exist S at Hudson Terminal where the collections would be on the * floor two hours or longer because there was not space to handle them. There was space at Madison Square station Which was openea as a mailing aivision in *, November, isié, which relieved the Grand Central station. There was a part of the mezzanine floor in City Hall station which was used in the same manner to relieve * A Hudson Tern.inal to the extent of two to three hundred thousand cance lations a day. When that was done and the additional force put on that was required to handle Af lliO *> the mails, the mails in New York began and have continu- ed since to be handled fairly regularly. I don't mean to say that the service has been perfect in any manner at all. They have , of necessity, been required to use a large number of temporary clerks. Those clerks wºre not trained and there were many errors made in the distribution, but the main volume of the mail has been going through in regular shape since the first of January, 1930. Mr. Paige: Then, as I underst and, all these resulties now are in use 7 -- Mr. Barclay : They are now in use. Mr. Paige: awa OWing to that, fact, you think you can get along without any additional buildings for Some time , is that the idea? Mr. Barclay: No , sir; you misunderstand me. The facilities are in use, and there are many places Where it is necessary to use the streets in Conne C tº ion With the handling of the parcel post . That Will be relieved to some extent. When the new stations are completed. At the Annex to the Madison Square station on 31st Street, the street is used there during the llll heavy periods of the day, for the bandling of parcel post - the new building will be ready about the first of June. Tuat condition then Will be changed - f Mr. Paige: Are the streets used ſäore now than they would be if pneumatic Stubes were in operation? Mr. Barclay: Used the same? Mr. Paige: Yes. , Mr. B&rclay : It Would oe the same • Triere would be no change • At Times Suuare the pavement is used for t; he anaians of parcel post . Triat Will be changed when the new building is ready, about the first of June. At the general post office, the entire side of the build— ing on 33rd street is used for the segregation of parcel post for delivery and the loading of the wagons, for that purpose , because no facilities Were contemplated in the General Post Office building, and the platform is not sufficient to take care of it . At City Hall the facilities are about up to Gapacity in what is about , the heaviest mail district in the City . at the general post office there are no facilities, toilet rooms, swing rooms, locker space, for the number of men employed f there . The same is true at Grand Central and at City ll.l2 Hall. . re Chairman: Isn't it a fact that your mail has decreased since 1919, and there is less demand upon these places for space, or for employes, than there Wras before? Mr. Barclay: I don't think the first class mail has diminished in any appreciable degree. The parcel post has decreased in the last three months. That , however, may be only temporary, owing to business condi- tions. The first class mail has held up. The Chairman: Now, Mr. Barclay, I wish this Postal Committee would make an investigation and Would report to this Commission in as clear and Con- densed a form as possible the building situation and the actual needs for a 10-year service , and for a 30- year service, and also report on the use of the present facilities that we have there now, and give that to lls so that We can considier it . Mr. Barclay : Yes, sir. The Chairman: Because the Commission will want to go down, when we get sufficient information to Work on---we want to go down and look that over our- selves, probably, but I have been opposed to going down iiis there, taking the Commission down there, to investi- gate, until We have º opinion of experts, both the engineers, and this Postal Committee, on some of these subjects, so that we could proceed intelligently in order to Cietermine the relative mer its of What is pro- posed here by these two recommendations. It seems to me it; ought not to take such a long while to do that, had it f Mr. Barclay : It will net. The chairman: That is what the Commission is after on this branch of the subject. Mr. Barclay : Yes. . The Chairman: And it is a very important one , and We would like to know what the opinion, the intelli— gent opinion, the informed opinion of this Committee is on some of these subjects. Mr. Steener son: I Would like to ask about these tables; do you propose to put those in the record? Mr. Barclay: No,' there is nothing special about them, except what I have already told you. Mr. Steenerson: Does that indicate the number of letters? illa Mr. Heroisy. only during the hours from 4 p.m. until, the collections are finished, That is only a check-up to show how the mail is going out during the heavy period of the night , Mr. Ste ener son: Do those figures show the relative number of drop letters and other letters? Mr. Barclay: No. It is just a cancelation count. Mr. Steenerson: But you did give the number of drop letters in one station as 340,000. - Mr. Barclay : That is 6ity Hall. That is esti- mated to run from 340,000 to 250,000 drop letters a day. Mr. Steenerson: What are the other letters? Mr. Barclay : I haven't got that . We are handling all told there about 600,000 a day. Mr. steenarson: A little more of those? Mr. Barclay: Yes, they are taken in at other stations, B, W and S are centered on City Hall. Mr. Steen erson: You mentioned that at some of these stations the work was all finished by lº o'clock at night, Mr. Barclay : Yes, sir. lllā Mr. Steenerson: ana at others two, three and four o " Clock? * Mr. Barclay : Yes, sir. ~ * Mr. Ste enerson: Did the clerks have anything to do after that stage had been reached? . Mr. Barclay: Well, they are scheduled by tours, \ and go off duty at the end of their tour. If the work is not up, they hold them for overtime. Mr. Steenerson: Those that get through at l? s £, 9, o'clock are not idle the balance of the time? *.. Mr. Barclay: Oh, no. The Chairman: Now, do I understand you that so far as expediting first class mail, the tubes are cf no value 7 I am talking about expedition now. Mr. Barclay : these is some first class mail that the tubes would expedite. I know that as a general proposition, Senator. The 80 per cent that is mailed artes 3 o'clock, of the ordinary mails, would not be expedited so far as the first delivery in the morning is concerned. Thät mail is distributed to station oases by one, two or three o'clock in the morning, in time for that mail. Go reach the stations. llló The Chairman: So that it goes out on the first delivery? Mr. Barclay: On the first delivery, yes. The Chairman: Well, do they expedite the first sians mail for delivery to the trains that are going out ºf . - Mr. Barclay: In some cases it Would. The Chairman: Can you tell us about that? Ms. Barclay: Well, that deals with the same 30 per sent of the 2 o'clock, and after that the mails get too heavy for the tubes to carry from many of the point S • The tubes would either have to be auxiliary to the motor vehicle service , or the motor vehicle ser– vice Would have to be auxiliary to the tubes. Tſia.t I haven't studied out . I have had no occasion to . The Chairman: Will you take occasion to do that 7 Mr. Barclay; I wevia oe pleased ſo do it, out it will take some tire, Senator. Mr. Steenerson: I don't understand this logic. Tubes are unequal to the task of transporting this mail these hours, and yet they say that 80 per cent of it is mailed after that time, 1 ll? Mr. Barclay: After 2 o'clock. & Mr. Paige: ' Isn't the other 20 per cent busine gs mail that wants to be transported quickly? Mr. Barclay: I judge it is . Mr. Paige: I think that was the testimony at the hearing; that it was the mail of business men Who Wanted that mail delivered promptly. The Chairman: won, we ought to be able to get those facts without much difficulty, it seems to me • We don't Want to establish the tube service if it is not a benefit to the mail, Mr. Barclay: It is a benefit to some mail. The Chairman: You say that repeatedly, but you haven't looked into that part of it 7 Mr. Barclay : NO . The Chairman: Tile last question I asked you was , are they of any benefit to the mail goi...g out of the City by train, anae from that 20 per cent that is mailed before 3 o'clock? Mr. Barclay: There are advantages to the out- going mail and the incoming wa by reason of the tubes, to some extent. You misunderstand my position. / * lll8 Tne inspectors take up for investigation matters that 8, 6. assigned to them • I have never been assigned t;O make any investigation of the tube service, and my knowledge of it is limited. The Chairman: Well, the report of the engineers Was to the effect that they were of advantage. That was one of the subjects I wanted this Committee to in- vestigate. OIl any uses: that the engineers reported I wanted the opinion of these post al. experts, and I Wish we might have that, because this is such a mooted question that I would like to get all there is to it. . Mr. Paige: Did I understand you to say that the discontinuance of the tubes did not add to the mail in the streets? The Chairman: That is parcel post matter. Mr. Barclay: Parcel post matter, yes. Mr. Paige : This report here shows that there Were over 5,000,000 pieces of main handled in the tubes in two days. Could that go on the street without adding to it? us, Barclay: Tſlat would be letter mail. Tilat wouldn't add to anything, so far as the street goes. The letter mail does not moccupy such a great deal of . * 1119 bulk that it would add to any congestion in the streets- Ms. Paige: No, but that is the class of mail that wants the quickest transportation, isn't it? Mr. Barclay: Oh, yes. Mr. Steen erson: Now, this 80 per cent mailed after 2 o'clock is delivered the following morning? Mrs Barclay: Triat is 80 per cent of the city mail would be aelivered the next morning. Mr. Steenerson: Well, what other mail is there? Mr. Barclay. Tiie incoming train mail . Mr. Ste ener son: Well, that is not ſcailed in the boxes. ilºr. Barclay: Oh, no ; that comes in on trains. Mr. Steen erson: Well, We are speaking about the mail that is collected from the boxes, that has to be in the boxes oefore 3 o'clock, or elso goes over until the next day. t --- Mr. Barclay. Goes over until the next day. Mr. Ste enerson: Well, now, the tubes did carry that mail, out the point you make is it didn't get it to its point of distribution to the carrier any sooner than if 1130 it; had been transported by automobiles? Mr. Barclay: Yés. \ Mr. Steenerson: So that the point is there was no expedition over the motor vehicle service? Mr. Barclay: Not necessarily an expedition; if it was not delivered on the day of mailing, it would be delivered on the first delivery the next morning. Mr. Steener son: Well, that is assuming that the motor vehicles Would carry it , certainly , but , in Case of a storm: , snow storm, or interruption of traffic, there would be an expedition, wouldn't there? Mr. Barclay: There would. :* Mr. Steenerson: The tubes would then carry it to that place where the carrier starts from in the morning, Whereas the motor vehicle, being demoralized, as has been described here on Certain extraordinary occasions, Would not being it there, so that in these cases the tubes would not only transport this large quantity of mail, but it would expedite it. Mr. Barclay : It wouldi Triere is no question but that if the tubes were functioning and the automobiles Were not; , the tubes would expedite the mail . . ilal Mr. Steenerson: Well, you know of such occasions? Mr. Barclay: & Yes, I was there during the storm of February a year ago • The chairman: IS there any member of this Com- mittee—now, according to this statement they are not all agreed——are there any views held by any member of this Committee that are different from those that have been expressed here? f Mr. Lubin: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make this statement; that the main can be expedited by tubes, and I Will prove it oy this statement ; Uhat Stations Serv- ed by motor vehicle service, the motor car has to . leave the beginning point of that route at B. certain hour º: reach a Station to connect. With the delivery. That is t; he final trip, to connect with the delivery, and We Will assume tº at the time of transit to all points on that route will be completed within heir an hour . Now, after the departure of the Wagon from the beginning of that route, mail arrives to be transported to those various points on the route. Now, if we had the tube service, there would be an advantage, because we could transport some of that mail to the station and ^ ll.23 *. connect With that Carrier delivery . A pneumatic tube carrier, I believe, can contain from 400 to 500 letters. We have 45 stations and the general post office, making 46 points. Now, assuming there were 300 letters put into each carrier for each point after the Wagon had departed. we woula have , then, 13,800 letters expedit- ed for one trip. We make four trips and six trips through- out the city. We will say there was an average of five trips. Triat would make its ,000 letters expedited during the day, connecting With the delivery with which they would not have Connected had there been no tubes. The Chairman: I understood Mr. Barclay to say that ! practically all of the mail deposited after 3 o'clock in the boxes reached the carrier in time for the first delivery. Mr. Steenerson: In the morning. Mr. Lubin: I will agree with Mr. Barclay on that, but I differ about the expedition. I maintain mail is expedited if it is made ready for final handling--- where we get the mail and it is made ready, there is no delay, and there would be an advantage if they could get the mail to the various stations before that hour, 1123 sº * * ſt- so that it could be sorted ja—the-ee:#iers-ready for the Carriers. If We could do that by midnight, it would be an advantage. If we could do that before midnight it would be an advantage, because there is a certain amount of letters that are missent, and if we could get that out, send those te their correct destinations, it would be an advantage in that way. Mr. Barclay: I have a report here which shows train mail on hand, 8 p.m. , 30,000 pieces, on hand 9 p.m. , 64,000; on hana 10 p.m., , 82,000; on hand ll p. m. , 95,000; on hand l.2 midnight , 135,000. The Chairman: Now, each one of those is the total, including the hours before? Mr. Barclay: Triat is the way the mail was coming in and Stacked up, The Chairman: Did that lºb ,000 include all the other mail that you stated before? Mr. Barclay: No, that is separate from the city. The city mail at midnight, March 31st, was 10,000 pieces. They keep the force working on city collection, and drop, and allow the train mail to pile up until it reached 135,000. Now, Mr. Lubin contends that that mail ll24 would be advanced through the tubes, but you cannot get that mail distributed to the stations until it has been distributed at the terminals. That has been the fault all the Way through. You might ask the question why there was l35,000 pieces on hand of train rail at: midnight. The Chairman: I do ask it . * Mr. Barclay: I don't know. Mr. Kiely is here. He has charge of that terminal. Mr. Steenerson: There were 135,000 letters? Mr. Barclay: Yes, sir; they had been accumulating steadily right along. At 8 o'clock there were 20,000; 9 o'clock 64,000; 10 o'clock 82,000; ll o'clock 95,000; l2 nianight l35,000. Mr. Ste enersèn: Well, what could they have done With it; f zº” Mr. Barclay: Distributed it and got it to the stations, and that mail could all have been there at 12 o'clock. Mr. steemerson: I thought you said this was the station, Mr. Barclay: No, this is Grand Central station. 1125 Mr. Steenergon: your contention is that that should have been sent to the postal stations? Mr. Barclay: That answers Mr. Lubin's question--- to get the mail to the station; that mail could have been sº to the stations if it was Worked, but it was not Worked. Mrs Steener son: Well, There should it have been Worked? Mr. Barclay: Right at Grand Central, and it should have been worked before l2 o'clock, instead of after l2 o'clock. ^-. - Mr. Steenerson: Maybe they had not sufficient clerks to Work it. º Mr. Barclay: Maybe that is the reason. Mr. Steenerson: That is the only reason I can see. Mr. Barclay: That is not the system, then; that is the performance. We have to separate system from performance. Mr. Paige: Some one Ceil answer that awesºon, can't they? Mr. Barclay: Now, at Hudson terminal, on the night of March 31st, the city mail on hand at 9 p.m. A - * ll?6 \ Wals 86,000; io pe the , 105,600; ll. p.m., 101,000; l.2 - midnight, 79,000, which was worked up down to 3 a • m. It kept growing there from 6 p.m., 7 p.a., 8 p.m. , 9 p.m. ---that terminal is under Mr. Lubin's jurisdiction. - Mr. Steenerson: Well, what advantage would there have been in getting this to the postal station be- fore the carrier was ready to start? Mr. Barclay; Well, Mr. Lubin says it is an advant- age • Mr. Ste enerson: Well, that is only to a limited extent, I suppose? Mr. Barclay: Yes, sir; that is all. Mr e Koons: When you say "worked up" you Yie all distributed to carrier districts or stations? Mr. Barclay: Station districts. Mr. Koons: not to the carrier? Mr. Barclay: Not to the carrier . Mr. Koons: There has been a statement made before the Commission that there Were 8,000 complaints a day in New York City as to the loss of mail, and I asked that they look into to that so that we would have an exact statement as a matter of record. Have you done that, 1127 Mr. Barplay! Mr. Barclay: Yes, sir. Mr. Koons: What is the number of complaints? Mr. Narclay: We hea inquiries made at the inquiry division, New York, during the calendar year 1930, the alleged losses reported on mail, letters and parcels, addressed to New York, were 117,383, and on matter mailed at New York , 148,isi; mailed at New York for local aelivery, 24,141, a total of 286,674. That would be an average daily of scºriants of 785. \ Now, the inquiry division estimates that from 40 to 50 per cent of complaints are based on no loss • Assuming there was no loss in 45 per cent of those cases, the total, becomes lă'7,671, or an average of 431 daily. Ms. Koons: Have you figured out what percent age that Would be of the number of pieces handled? Mr. Baseley. No , we haven't figured out the percentage. The engineers stated there were 8,000 losses daily of mail matter in New York, but the actual complaints only show possibly 431 daily. About one-tenth of the mail of the United States, approximately 1128 3,500,000,000 originates in New York post office each year, to which should be added the incoming mail, also the mail in transit to the south and West, and from the New England States to the South and West, which would make the total number of pieces handled at New York, and in transit, more than five billion annually, and on the basis of wo,000 annually, it would be only one complaint or loss for each 50,000 pieces handled. Mr. Steenerson: What was the total of the United States pieces? Mr. Barclay: About one-tenth of the United States, Or approximately 2,500,000,000. Mr. Steen erson: That is New York. Then, it would be ten billion? Mr. Barclay: Ten times two would be twenty; 20,500,000,000. Mr. Steenerson: That includes all classes of mail? Mr. Barclay : Tilat is all classes. The New York branch of the Dead Letter Office covers New York and New England. During the last fiscal year there were received at this branch 3,798,694 pieces of undeliverable mail matter, and there were turned in by 1129 the New York pest office alone 939,369 letters and parcels, or more than nine times the number of complaints- This is not an estimate , but an actual Count r This vast amount of undeliverable mail matter is chiefly attributable to carelessness on the part of the general public, and the eame condition aaturally obtains With regard to parcel post. The percentage, therefore, of even the present loss, while very regrettable, is compara- tively small, when the amount of mail of this character is taken into consideration, How many of these dead pieces were the subject of complaint can only be con— jectured, but without doubt they were considerable, and it plainly shows that many more losses occur through the Carelessness of the public than through poor service. Mir. Lubin; Mr. Chairman, with reference to the amount of mail that was on hand at a certain time in Grand Central Station, and Sºft sºn, there are two remedies for t nat: ; one to have additional cases there , more clerks to Work the cases, or to lessen the amount of mail to be handled at those points, by having the individual stations do their own separating of the Gollections. ll.30 Under whe present arrangements in New York there * Certain concentration points, Where Various Stations sent their mail, which are ºn the drops at those stations º collected from the letter boxes in those district, sº It *: then taken and transported to the central concentration point. Now, if each station Where the quantity warrants would do their own separating, there wouldn't be such a great volume in the main termin– als, and possibly the train mail would get better atten– tion. The Chairman: Are you using the force you have un- der you at your station to the best possible advantage in taking oare of the mail that comes to you? Ms. Lubins, we are using it. With the facilities that we have. *. Mr. Steenerson: Is it worked to capacity, full t; imme'; \ Mr. Labia: I believe at the present time it is work— ed to oapacity. There is a condition at Grand Central station which is very acute, regarding the carrier force. Six or eight new buildings have been opened since the first of * ll31 May, some twenty-five stories high, covering a whéle block, and I think the facilities at Grand Central station to take case of carrier routes will last about five manthe, and unless ve have relief there, and the volume of mail grows, we will have to look for quarters to put e certain amount of *a from Grand Central station into an annex. The chairman: You think there is an emergency need then for this building? - Mr. Lubin: I do - There is a great deal of work being done now in crowded quarters, and Crowded quarters mean extra cost, because the men cannot work to the best advantage, and be sides in some of these stations we haven't adequate facilities for locker and SWing room, We haven't the proper loading space, at stations where the amount of mail requires a loading platform. | The Chairman: Well, isn't there some portion of the day that your working space is not occupied to full capacity? - º * Mr. Lubin: Yes, sir; in the mornings, and then for parts of the day. That is, from the time the first s” ” ll32 mail goes out until the mail starts to come in in the afternoon • In the morning, until the ſail goes out , the aisles are all crowded, until the carriers take Out: their first delivery. We have to use emergency furniture. We have a condition at the general, post office where We haven't sufficient locker space . We have a check room system. We have a locker system there , - Senator, that I think is dangerous to the health of the employes: We have a check system there . where clothes are hung in wooden compartments, *any t thousand; or employstºsing them, and you can readily understand and realize What that means. The Chairman: Is it your suggest ion that those Wooden compartments be taken out and replaced With steel ones? . Mr. Lubin: Steel ones, and room to place them. Wooden lockers, you realize, are subject to a lot of vermin getting in there. , The Chairman: Do you have janitor service down the re? Mr. Lubin: The Treasury Department supplies that. sº The Chairman: Well, do you have it ºf 1133 Ms. Lasia: In a measure. I think they are healerºsa with insufficient force -a+-tº-e-ºe-estºry Besertment. that woulan's cure that situation in the locker room. The Chairman: It wouldn't 7 Mr. Lubin: Why, no. You can understandi how wooden furniture is subject to a collection of versin and bugs and so forth. The Chairman: Well, I should imagine with t; he proper treatment of that, cleaniless and so on, it would keep the vermin away. Mr. Lubin: Well, there are so many employes that live under different conditions at home--- The Chairman: on, the vermin is part of the Department? (Laughter.) C-4-f Mr. Lubin: They bring it there. GC+OTred rºen and waite men have their clothes together, and they have - - Ö".” tº room to dress ener undreas, and there are a certain number of clerks that are used in connection with this, So that it is an expense to the Department. The clerks that receive the clothing to hang it up and * deliver it to the employes are an expense to the Depart- ll34 ment. There is a oneer system there, and it is an expensive one. The Chairman: Have you anything further to say about this? Mr. Lubin: . Nothing further, except that condi— tions are crowded at Station A, D, O, Madison Square-- g well, of course, Madison Square Will be cured. Station F, Grand Central, Times, G---Station V will be taken care of, and the General Post Office . As Mr. Barclay said, We use the 33rd Street side of the building to load our parcel post wagons. We have to use a large force to take this mail and run it through the narrow passage over a bridge, out on the side- Walk, and lay the mail out on the sidewalk and load the wagons. We ought to have space for those wagons to back up. There would be less handling. The chairman: But, according to Mr. Barclay and the others, there is no particular delay in the mail, So far as that is concerned. Mr. Lubin: We are getting the mail out . The service has improved since l.919, but we would like to keep on improving. It is a handicap to the delivery !: 1135 service. St-we get a great volume of mail at 3 o'clock, 24- that mail could be sent out and—ge-tº-ber-ºrreugh several hours sooner It is an—adºeree to the services and—set- º * * * a º º C * , º sº f º º * -- * º º, ſº - - º º Zº º arº O gº W. L." V. C º-ºr- r º, a zºº rºws = ~ * , - sº, sº -- S. rº º is º. --º- ... . . . . . . . . . . . . * * © There yould be less clerks working at nights less-Stºëay Clk *. + - **** ! ... Wººlflgbtr - •º - 1.l.. 6 \ I have a copy of my report to the Postmaster of New York, which I would like to have included in the rec- ord. The chairman: That will be included. & tº UNITED STATES POST OFFICE "NEW YORK, N. Y. "June 21, 1920. "Hon. Thomas G. Patten, * ... - "Postmaster. "A report of the Super intendent of Mails dated March 31, 1930, referring to the recommendations made in the report of the Investigating Committee 'that all clerks employed on city distribution in the delivery section of Hudson Terminal, Pennsylvania Terminal and Grand Central Stations be transferred to the iſailing Division' has been carefully reviewed and after consideration of the effect that the trial operation of the proposed plan has had upon the delivery service at this office, and an analysis of the comparative report representing the cost of operation, and in the interest of increased efficiency in the deliv- \ ery of mails, the recommendation submitted under date of September 15, 1919, that the supervision of all the work 1137 incident to the handling of mails for New York City delive- ery including the distribution, pouching, etc., be re- stored to the Superintendent of Delivery , is renewed. "It is not conceded that mails for New York City de- livery have been efficiently and ecºnomically handled under the jurisdiction of the Division of Mails, and in this connection your attention is directed to the daily reports concerning conditions in the delivery section of the General Post Office as indicated in the daily reports sub- mitted to you on the following dates: July 2, 3, 8, 9, io, ll, lº, 15, 13, 17, 24 and 39, August 1, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, ii, l2, 13, 14, 16, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 28 and 30, September 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 15, 25, 36 and 37, and to the report of the Special Committee to investigate the general subject of collection and dispatch, transmission and deliv– ery of rail matter of all classes, transmitted by the First Assistant Postmaster General under date of October 28, 1919. In the letter of transmittal the Fi. st Assistant comments upon the delay in distribution and delivery of City mail. "The data furnished by the Super intendent of Mails as being representative of the cost of operating the Mail— ll38 ing Division during the auarter July 1 to September 30, 1918, as compared with the same period in the year 1919, has been carefully examined and verified, as a result of which among other errors discovered is one item of $61,142. ll representing the cost of operating Hudson * Terminal City Department for the quarter July to Septem— ber 1919, which has been deducted from the cost of oper- ating Hudson Terminal Mailing Division. As this amount was not included in the total cost of operation for the entire station, no deduction should have been made. * "According to the records of the Auditor, expenditures for Hudson Terminal Station, Division of Mails, for the July to September quarter, 1919, were as follows: Salary . Deductions - Aux. & Sub. Overtime $155,972. 10 $ 9,787.57 $ 43,936.00 $5,774. 30 These amounts did not include the cost of operation of the City Section, The Superintendent of Mails reports cost Of operation at Hudson Terminal Station in luding City Department as $194,401.29. As a matter of fact the Auditor records show the cost for the Division of Mails alone to have been sias,894.83. The total cost of operating both divisions during the period stated as shown by the records 1139 was #254,365. 14. V "In computing the cost no attempt has been ſhade to determine the actual or approximate costs for clerk's or carriers performing clerical work which may have been assigned from other points to assist at terminals or to estimate any cost for the transfer of mails which were * Worked at other stations. "The extensive distribution of parcel post mail at stations has resulted in a considerable reduction in the © -cost of operation of the Mailing Division and this factor has not been given any Weight in computing the cost as represented by the Super intendent of Mails. "on April 16, 1919, the distribution of circular flam– matter * established at the Foreign Station Annex and circular thatter formerly distributed at terminals "ras handled subsequent to that date in the oomputation made by the Superintendent of ſails so cost of operation for the Circular Section at Foreign Station Annex is shown. $103,780 should be adaea to the cost, this being the amount charged to the operation of the Circular Section, Foreign Station Annex for the quarter ending September 30, 1919, as reported to the Auditor. ll. jº * : $3 - 1 it was in the Howard's testimony before the Corºmission, I think, at the February ceeting. Senator Walsh : That is the conclusion you have ar— at ; that is your opinion from That you have read? :3 * it. Touli cost . * ri * ? T. sº tº they sai Tived Mr. Johnson: Th it is ºn ...t. Now, "re get down to the that We Exactly. 5.In 3 xt, en : Senator Walsh: exiſ = (ii t e i º O such ºn :* . 4. * tuestion, is the ºil fire justified in carrying an increased cost of £600,000 a R - - '. * , * sº ‘A &fº º ſº. * * ; : It 3. - ? -- 3. tº 118O year? Mr. Johnson: Wo, sir, I don't think it is, ſr. Lubin; with reference to ºr . Barclay's state- rent resºains conditions in New York in January, 1919, when he investigated the matter there, I would like to have this feature cleared up; whether the reports made concerning delay in delivery of mail for New York city, made to the postmaster, were justified, and "hether or not every energy was used by the city depart:ant to expedite delivery or help correct the condition that T'as there . Mr. Barclay made the investigation. I don't want the city de— partment to be put in a Wrong position about that. The Chairman: Do you want to answer that, ſr. Bar— clay? * . HMr. Barclay: No, I am not dividing the responsi– bility, senator. The postmaster should judge that , The Chairman: `ir . Post, do you want to be heard? Mr. Post: Yes, sir; I would like to make a brief statement. The Chairman: First, before that, Mr. Johnson, we & have the history of these witnesses; I would like to know What your experience has been ºrith the Post Office Depart- 1181 ment. - - Mr. Johnson: 3fy experience? . The Chairman: Yes. ºr. Johnson: I was appointed post office inspector in 1887 and remained in the service for two years and a half. I re-entered the service in 1893. I was an inspec- tor in charge --- - - Tºe Craircan: That is, you were separated from the service when? Mr. Johnson: Under the Harrison adjºinistration. The Chairman: From what period to what period? #. Johnson: From the 31st of December, 1889, to September, 1893. The Chairman: Then, you were restored to what posi- tion? - Mr. Johnson: I Was appointed inspector in charge at St. Louis. I have had charge of the St. Louis, New Orleans and San Francisco and Kansas City divisions. In 1913 I was made chief post office inspector. In 1915 I Was made general superintendent of the railway ºail ser- vice, ana since l917 I have been inspector in charge at Kansas City. * ----- l 45. 182 The Chairman: , You are in that position now? Mr. Johnson: Yes. STATEMENT OF ER. ED POST, Superintendent Registry Division, New York City, The Chair.jian: Noºr, Mr. Post, tell us what your ex- perience has b = en Erith the Department . y ºr . Post : I was appointed to the service in 1875; held the position of chief clerk in the executive division; inspector of stations; second assistant post:aster, a posi- tion that is now extinct; superintendent of registry for ten years. The Chairman: Whereabout s? Mr. Post: New York; superintendent of delivery seven years. Then, I was transferred back to the registry de— partment, where I have been for three years. The Chairman: So you have been in the constant ser– vice of the post office since 1875? *Mr. Post : . Forty-six years. The Chairºian: You are a miechber of this Post al Com- mittee? is Mr. Post: Yes, sir. The Chairman: ir. Johnson, you are a zerber of this Postal Coºr, it tee also f Mr. Johnson; : Yes, sir. * The Cairº.an: Very well, ºr . Post; you ſay go ahead. *Mr. Post : I ºnted to ſºake a. statement, ¥r. Chair- man, as to the utility of the prleumatic tube, as far as they concern whºt I consider an important branch ºf the service, and an important section of the city, and that is the registry ſcail for the financial district. That is, the district below the City Hall station. • When the pneumatic tubes were in operation they un- questionably expedited and advanced the I.3.il for that sec- tion of the city. Mr. Steener son : That is the financial section? P Mr , Post : The financial section, and for the other * sections, for that Yatter. I am speaking, now of the reg— istered mail for that particular såction, where a delay in •9 delivery of the nail, if the mail is not received in tim Jº to go through the clearing house, or be delivered it the stock exchange, it will mean a hundred to two hundred or 1184 tºv,” five hundred dollars (in the loss of interest to these dif– Af º ferent banking concerns there, and "rhile the pneumatic tube was in operation, we used to get that registered mail down there at least a half hour earlier than "re get it now, * } ſº and I can give you a. concrete case of that, if you would like it. * The Chºirican: Do you have a different delivery now than you did then? Do you have a different delivery hour? ir. Post : Not for the financial district; not so far as the stock exchange or clearing house is concerned, Or for the brokers doºrn there. 3:45 is the last delivery down there . "[r , steemerson: What was that concrete case ? Wr. Post : . Now!, it conies down by a wagon, an express wagon, that leaves the general post office, located at 33rd and 8th Avenue, and it comes down to the City Hall Station. I suppose º, in knowſ There that is located, where the city Hºll is, and there that wagon circuit ends, and another wagon circuit begins for the lover part of the oity, and this registered mail lies on that platform for ig thinutes before it connects with another wagon going do"n to station P and Wall Street station. 1185 Senator Walsh: Formerly it went direct by tube without going to City Hall? iſr. Post: With the relays at different points, but | there was a tube that connected in the general post office with City Hall. ** Senator Walsh: What percentage of the general mail that oozes to that station at Wall Street is registered rail? "ſr . Post: You mean what percentage of the whole waii, or what percentage of the registered mail for the city ? Senator Walsh: No, what percentage of the whole mail for the city ? Śr , , Post, - that *Would be comparatively small, but the importance of the mail --- Senator Walsh: I understand that. #. Post : We Trould send about twelve or fifteen thousand articles down there , Senator Walsh: A day? ºir. Post : Yes . Senator Walsh: That is the largest registry center, of course f Mr. Post : Yes . That is, City Hall, Wall Street, and f llaé station P. Senator Walsh: Can you tell us the percentage of t; n ºlt, registered mail to the -hole city registered ſcail? ºr . Post : That would be, I serré, fro), 13 to 15 at a steamer, g thousand --- that would vary. When we it would be much larger, but we handle about 35,000 regis- tº ered pieces a day. 6. Senator "alsh: That is about one-third? ºr . Post: No, it is fiore than one-third; 35,000 Would be almost half. Senator ºl alsh: Almost half of your registered à ail for the entire city codes to that station? f łr. Post : Yes. So, I consider tº at the public f showia be consiſtered so ...e :Th3.t in connection with these tubes, Senator, the service that they render. The govern— ment does not lose this interest, but the patrons do. * ‘ſr. Steemerson: How about actual loss by depreda– tions, robbery, and so forth; is there any difference in the safety? . * *r. Post : It is safer in the tubes, Mr. steemerson: In the tubes the ail is put into a oontainer and dropped into that tube, and goes underground •-º’ 1187 until it is delivered at its destination in the building? *Ir, Post: . In • wagon *~~~ - Mr. Steener son: It travels the street? - Mr. Post: In a wagon it is put in a mail bag and f under a special lock, known as a registered rotary lock, That is a look that every time you open it, the number ad- 'vances, so that if it. is opened in transit, if it is closed on so, and when it gets to destination it opens on 63, it ºust have been opened. so evaere i Il **sat. That kindi of a lock is also put on the registered pouches when they go by automobile or wagon. - We had an inner tube that fitted into the outside container of the pneumatic tube, which also had a rotary look on'. That look was not exposed from the time our man saw it put in at the aspatchins point until it was taken out inside of the station at the receiving point. Mr. steenerson: Well, is where any loss by theft . - - and robbery and diepredation of rail? Is there any loss of valuable mail: .. - - ºr. Post: Not in transit by tube. Mr. Steener son: I mean by vehicles. 1188 lake at Mt. Vernon, I believe. . Wall Street tube? ºr. Post: Oh, yes, sir; yes, sir, there has been. Mr. Steen arson: I have read in the papers about some *, fr. Post: Yes, one of those at City Hall station --- an inner resistered sack for City Hall was found out in a Senator Walsh: Registered Kail is not given any pref- erence in transaission? Wr . Post: No, six . Senator Walsh: So that registered rail sent through S the tubes would go like any ordienary mail from central station to City Hall? .** – fºr . Post: Yes, sir. Senator Walsh: And then be transferred from the re- serving tube at City Hall to the tube that ºf ent to Wall Street, and Would have to take its course, in waiting, depending upon the amount of jail going through the tube to go to Wall Street. What delay Tould there be at City Hall in the transmission of registered ſºil through the Mr. Post: Ordinarily there would be none. It would 3. be taken from the receiver and put into the transmitter, 52. ll.99 unless there were a few tubes ahead of it. tº Mr. Kiely: Would you permit an interruption there? I was at the City Hall station, and I know how that is operated. It is received in a container at the City Hall station, and is immediately taken to the Wall Street tube. A record is made of the transfer at the City Hall station, and it is signed for by the man who dispatches it at the Wall Street tube. There isn't any delay. Senator Walsh: You know the container has registered mail in it? -- ºr. Post: You cannot tell the difference, Senator. ºr. Kiely: You cannot tell the difference, but all Cont, 3.iners for Wall Street must be emptied at city Hall station, because the tube was, at one time, a little bit different, ana it is easier to transfer the mail than it is the containers, because the Wall Street tube is SO Yºle distance from where the tubes are received from Grand Cen- tral and General Post office. . senator waish: How far away? Mr. Kiely: Probably 30 feet. Senator Walsh: So that all mail coming from Grand Central, arriving at City Hall, whether registered or not, 1196 has to be taken out of its container and put in different containers to so to wall street? t - - tr. Kiely: Wall Street and station P. Senator Walsh: There is just one other question I y wanted to ask . Of course, there wouldn't be any advance- ment of registered 3.ail. Which Wals delivered in the first morning Dail, would there, by using the tubes, over using *Aſ agon s? - Mr. Post : Wouldn't be advanced? Senator Walsh: No. Mr. Post: You mean it wouldn't take precedence over any other mail? Senator Walsh: Whatever registered £ail th ,t was dropped at Grand Central Station at 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon Tould not get to Wall Street in the morning any earlier by having wagons, motor vehicles, tubes or any— thing else, because there are no deliveries. - Mr. Post: At two o'clock? The last deliverv is at three o'clock on Wall Street . Senator Walsh: Well, I had the hour wrong; I mean the delivery hour. Mr. Post: After the delivery hour, no. 1.191 a- : & E. r” n w- Senator Walsh: So that the tube would only expedite the transmission of those letters that Were dropped in after the first delivery in the morning? Mr. Post : No, it would not advance the others. Mr. Steener son: I didn't suppose registered letters were drºpped in the box. Mr. Post: He means to go through the regular course. Senator Walsh: When I say the "box" I mean the re- ceiving box at the station. Mr. Steener son: They are right in the post office when they are delivered by the sender. Mr. Post : There is a chain of receipts from the time they are put in the window until they are finally deliver— ed. Senator Walsh: Do they come in separate parcels from the trains 7 §ſr. Post: Separate parcels, yes. Senator Walsh: Can you answer his question; is registered mail that is received at the Grand Central sta- tion delivered any quicker by having tube service, from late in the afternoon until the first morning rºail? Mr. Post : No, not unless it is mailed in time to con- 1.192 assº wºn the last aelivery. - senator waish: To finj. out how much registered mail is advanced we would want to know the time when the most registered mail is dropped in the iſ ail, isn't that true? Mr. Post: That is true. senator Walsh : Now, how tºuch of the registered * * received at the concentration station, or at Grand central and the other principal stations late in the af- ternoon? - Mr. Post : I was not speaking, Senator, about the interchange of registered mail between stations in New York. I was speaking about registered mail from other com— mercial centers, like Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, that arrive at the General Post Office in the early morning when time is of vital importance. Senator Walsh: You mean eight or nine o'clock in the morning? Mr. Post : No, I mean the first trunk line mail we get in the morning, which As 5:15. That is the Pittsburg mail, and on top of that, fifteen minutes after, the New York and chicago, and 30 C;inutes after that, the mail from Boston, and then the mail from Washington, and then another & §§ > * 1195 mail from Pittsburg, and we have ten or twelve mails that come in there within three or four hours, and they are all extremely heavy mails, and it is impossible to get them ‘Worked w sometimes. They don't always arrive on time. Senator Walsh: I am excluding the fact that *-as- tered mail is not advanced that is received in certain hours, but I am wondering how much of the registered mail comes into Grand Central at hours when it cannot be ad— vanced any. Mr. Post : There isn't very much. The interchange of registered mail between stations is very small. The bulk of our mail is for outgoing and incoming,2-r-----> Mr. Steener son: It is coming from the country, all over the country? Mr. Post : Yes. Mr. Steener son: And that comes in in the morning, and that is the most important part of the registered mail? Mr. Post : The most important hour of the day. Mr , Steener son: The part of the registered mail that originates in New York is very small, compared with that that comes from the outside to New York, so that the ll.94 57 registered mail is chiefly composed of incoming mail? iſr . Post : From other large financial and business sections, yes. Mr. Steenerson: They were talking here a while ago about mail that originates in the city between stations. ~~~~4-1 Mr. Post: The registered mail *f; the +. city is practically na. Senator Walsh: If you could tell us how much of the registeroa ſmail is delivered on the first rºail in the morning, What percentage, we could set Some information that might be helpful on this point . Mr. Post : I can do that, but those conditions vary. New York is an exchange office, and we get a large foreign mail there . We will get in sometimes lä0,000 letters from foreign sections in one day, and of course that will swell our dispatches, our business for that day. Senator Walsh: We understand that it is fluctuating. Mr . Post : But the majority of the mail, of the im– portant mail, is received there before la o'clock; re- ceived in the registry division before lz o'clock, Senatºr Walsh: In the morning? Mr. Post : Yes. 58 11.95 Senator Walsh: So that the majority of the register— ed mail that comes into the office in New York is received between 5 o'clock and 12 o'clock in the morning? `ſr . Post : But the ſqost of it is received between / 5 and 8. Then, there is this flier, this 18-hour train, or 20-hour train from Chicago, that cornes in around 10 o'clock, and that brings in important £ail, but notºion volume . . Senator Walsh : I sireply wanted to bring out -hether there would be a constant steady advancergent of all regis— tered mail, or only certain parts of it Coulj be advanced , Mr. Koons: Hoºr many of these regist, ered rails would there be --- would there be any number of them that "ould be too large to go into the tube container? Wr . Post: There would be a certain proportion of them, but that proportion is not as great as those that could go in , There would be lºrge consignments of bonds that could not go in, but small consignments of bonds could. Mr. Koons: You would have to maintain your wagon service for them? Mr. Post: You would have to maintain a wagon ser– ^, 59 11.96 vice in connection with the tube at all times. Mr. Koons : It would be impossible to send them all through the tubes? Mr. Post : I am not an advocºte of this tube. I would like to see a larger one. I believe in a system of underground transportation in a city like Netºr York, There the traffic conditions are getting "orse and worse all the time, but I am not in favor of this tube. I would like to have a larger tube, one that would carry a mail sack. The Chairman: Well, are you in favor of this tube being used as it is now by the government 7 Mr . Post: Yes, sir. 0.22.É.--~~~~~. The Chairman: You think it will expedite the mail? Mr. Post : I think it will expedite the mail, and I agree with Mr. Kiely that there is a profit in it. It is not a dead loss, and I think that the people in the city of New York are entitled to the best that they can get, and when you give a good service to New York it is reflect– ed throughout the whole country, incoming and outgoing mail both. The Chairman: Anything further to ask the witness? 60 ll.97 (No. response.) Mr. McGurty: I would like to make a stateſ.ent in connection with the tube, from the standpoint of a prac— tical distributor, one handling mail at the case, based on ſily personal experience as a distributor of mail on the New York letter case . In the old general post office, now City Hall, we made a supplementary dispatch after the wagon had s:#f conveying the .i.ail, for example, to train 35, taking out— going ºnil, 2nd making all western connections, carrying overland mail, and I want to point out the importance of t; he possible delays to mail that miss connections, par- ticularly where, as in the case of overland mails, I under— st and there are just two connections a day, It was my experience to Śistºribute at least 100 letters ** tºrty of New York that were included in the supplementary dispatch one-half hour after the regu- lar dispºtch had been closed out , which made the same train . Hr. Steener son: By tube 7 iMr. McGurty: By tube, Now, it if that was the experience of one clerk, and -** 1198. 61 that condition. Would prevail. Tith connections for New easiana mails, --- at that particular time, of course, there could be no connection made With southern mails, because the Pennsylvania. Railroad did not enter New York at that time, but with the Pennsylvania Station now es— tablished in New York, and the tube connection there, the supplementary mail from the City Hall station and from the Hudson Terminal station, which were important mails, sad the financial section, that do not now make connec– tions with out going trains, a certain portion of it could make connections if the tubes were used and a supplementary dispatch made. Mr , Koona: Mr. McGurty, do you know how long before the train left that you closed out that dispatch when it went by Wagon? & Mr. MoGurty: How long before the train left 7 Mr. Koons : Yes. iſir. McGurty: I think it was one hour . Mr. Koons: Do you know whether the wagon was scheduled to leave as late as was possible to make the train, or whether it left earlier, depending on the tube to carry the supplementary dispatch? 62 4.1.99 Mr. McGurty: No, it left to make the train connec– tion, and didn't have any were are, evenues at that particular time of the night the capacity of the tubes was taxed, and the wagon had to leave --- had to take over that mail. ºr. Koons: How long do you close out a dispatch before the train ºf #. 'McGurty: Well, I am not in that mailing division now, and I don't know just how they operate it, but I do know this; that all nails, on general order, are closed out at all stations five minutes before the scheduled leaving time of the truck. That is, the pouch must be ready for 3 dispatch five minutes before the scheduled leaving time. That five minutes might be saved with tubes. tir. Koons : How often do you tie out your case generally? º Mr. McGurty: Half hourly. Mr. Koons : That was still true during the time of the tubes? Mr. MoGurgy: Yes. Mr , Koons : The safºe compºri son? iſr McGurty: The he dºgy would be the same. 12CO 63. Mr. Kiely: I would like to ask Mr. McGurty if that was a horse-drawn wagon or motor vehicle? Mr. McGurty: I couldn't say which it was. I think it was horse-drawn Then I was there. Eſr . Norrist: Mr. Chairman, yesterday you said to me that Mr. Patten had recome ended the tube. I understood you to say that , The Chairman: That is that I understood. Sir . Norris: I conferred with fr. Patten only a fewſ days ago, before I wrote the report regarding pneumatic tubes, as to what his ideas were , and this is What he said to me. After talking over the matter with him, he said it was his opinion that the tube was a supplementary service, and that the only ºuestion to be determined was there suf- ficient; isail advanced to arrant the expense. The Chairº.an: I think he "ra's asked the guestion di- rectly. ' There were two or three other gentlemen present, and I think he was asked the question iirectly whether he recommended the use of the tube, and he said, "I recommend the use of any facility that will expedite the mail." Mr. Norris: I didn't want you to think this was all my individual opinion about the tubes, because I did talk 64 i2O1 With the postmaster about it, and I thought I was reflect- ing the pestmaster's opinion . tº f The Chairman: Was that what you came here for, to reflect the views of the postmaster or anybody else? Mr . Norris: Not - altogether. The Chairman: Well, in any way? Mr. Norris : That—was What I stated to this Commis- alon_r ~ar?--~ –L-4,432-6-4-(+- ~~~~ -č/. 39-4-2-4- cº-º-º-º-º-º-º-º: * * The Chairman: We can call on' these other gentlemen to get their opinions whenever we want them, but what we would like now is the opinion of these experts 7e had as- signed to us. -* Mr. Norris : I just simply wanted you to know that I had conferred with the postmaster. The Chairman: Is there anything further? Do you want to be heard further, Mr. Johnson? * Mr. Johnson: I don't know that I can add anything, Mr. Chairman, except what has been covered in the report , unless there are some questions you would like to ask. The Chairman: I don't know of anything. Is there anybody who would like to ask ºr . Johnson any questions? Mr. Steener son: Mr. Chairman, something over a year 1262 as ess I had prepared a synposis of the treaty provisions, parts of which I would like to have printed in the record in connection with the statement of the gentleman made about money orders. The Chairman: Have you got it? Wir. Steener son: I will furnish the stenographer with a copy. The Chairman: That will be all right. Mr. Steener son : The principal part of it is a quo— tation from the treaty provision, something over a year ago I prepared an interview for the New York World on this subject, There in I point- ed out that the reason given by the officials of the post office department for continuing to sell money orders on foreign countries at the pre-War rate of ex- change, as I understand them, is that they are required to do so by treaty provisions. I have examined the treaty with France of December 29, 1879, and I am unable to find anything therein to justify that contention. Article 4 provides : "The amount of the orders shall be paid in by the remitters and paid out to the beneficiaries in gold coin, or in other lawful money of l?05 66 N. equal current value . " "In case at any time a paper currency, inferior in value to gold coin, shall become a legal tender in either country, the Postal Administration of that country is authorized to receive and to pay it out in its deal— ings with the public, provided account be taken of such difference in value." The fact is that France is on a paper basis and no gold is paid out or permitted by the Government to be paid out on any account. There is no way therefore to ascertain what the difference between the circulating currency, which is a legal tender, and gold is except that we can buy from international bankers drafts which call for and are paid in this depreciative currency at about sixty cents on a dollar . So the man who takes a money order to the post office in Paris cannot possibly get any gold and being unable to point out any differ— ence between the value of the paper franc and the gold franc, he must take the paper. Article 5 provides: "The amount of each order must be expressed in the money of the country in which payment is to be made, but no order shall contain a l2O4 * * 67 3. fraction of a cent or of a decime (five centime). "The rate of conversion of the money of the coun- try of origin, into the t of the country of payment shall be fixed by the Administration of the country of Örigin." The last clause would seem to authorize the country of origin to prescribe the rate at Thich it aesares tº O sell the Order. In speaking of the effect of the account of one government against the other, Article 7, among other things, provides: "This conversion shall be based upon the average of the rates of exchange quoted at Paris during the period embraced in the account, if the pay— ment is due to the United States; and upon the average of such rates quoted during a like period at New York, if the paytent is due to France." On page lºll of the Post rºaster General's report for 1919, it is stated that balances arising out of inter- national money—order business, "hether to or by the United States, are settled by means of bills of exchange. Balances due by this country are settled by bills pur- chased in New York City. These bºlances have been settled for the last several months, so far as France is * \ 1205 68 concerned, at a discount of ‘about 40 per cent, The Postmaster General in his report says that the effect of this over charge is exceedingly unsatisfactory, and that as soon as the business ºrorld is again on a solid foundation the department will propose to foreign postal administrations a readjustment of the terms of the money—order conventions. It, should be understood that the drafts purchased to settle balances, and in fact, all drafts issued by international bankers, on London and Paris, etc., are not now payable in gold but in the currency of the country There payable which is depreciated. Thus, the rate on London yesterday was 3.735 per pound sterling, but the payee of that draft cannot get gold but the cir– culating currency. If the draft called for gold sover— eign the banker would charge about $4.90 instead of $3.735. A draft on Paris cannot be purchased, as I understand it, to be payable in gold because to pay gold there is forbidden. See Statutes at Large, Vol. 31, page 720 et seq. , and Postal Union Treaty, Vol. 20, page 734. / 1206. It seems to me that if the Foreign Governments would carry out the provisions of the treaty and pay in gold or its equivalent the problem would be solved without any further treaty, 12O7 The causan. I think that is about aii, sentiºn, and I think I have made myself clear; that we would like some of these matters to which we called especial atten– tion investigated by this Committee, and we would like to get the results of your own investigations. You know where to go to get the information; you are all experienced in the post office service , and if there is a difference of opinion in reference to any subject that you have investi— gated, we would like to get the various views on that sub- ject, because the Commission has got to weigh all this t; es— timony when it is in. We have to go over it, and we want to know What, the contending facts are, if there are any, in reference to any matter. If you go to work on that now, and give it to us as quickly as you can, we would be obliged to you. If we get this information sufficiently full, the Commission will proceed to consider it, and will probably look over the ground in New York personally. We will go down there and investigate when we know what we are going to investigate, and we would like the unbiased views of the members Who are at work on this, so that it may be of some value. 1208 Now, these hearings, Senator Walsh, will be printed woºdy, ºne I am going to ask the members of the Commis– sion to go over them, so that we can meet and have some kind of an understanding as to how Te shall proceed, and make as much progress as we car. Senator Walsh: Is it your idea to make a separate report on New York City? The Chairman: That is the only thing we have before us now. The experts have reported on New York. No, we want to make a general report to Congress, but I Want to i.ake as much progress as I can, because I Want to get through With it as soon as we possibly can, and I would like to have the members of the Commission familiarize themselves With what has been submitted. Senator Walsh: Exactly. The Chairman: So that we can talk intelligently about it. Senator Walsh: Mr. Chairman, I Was going to suggest that this Commission give us a very brief summary of the things that they think can be inaugurated to expedite the service in New York City. The Chairman: You mean this Postal Committee, not the 1209 Commission? Senator Walsh: Yes, these gentlemen . This report that they have made is what I call a negative report. They have analyzed very ably and Tell the engineers' report, but there appears to be running through it a tendency to con- fine themselves to that report and not take the initiative themselves, and I would like to see them say, "The things that We think can be done to improve the service in New York city are, one, two, three, four, five and six, and these are the reasons in a few sentences." The Chairman: The committee has proceeded according to instructions. This Committee was appointed under direc- tion of our last meeting to take this report on New York that was made by the engineers and analyze that report. Senator Walsh: That was quite well done. The Chairman: But I think you are quite right about that. Senator Walsh: Wouldn't you like to get a positive statement from them, independent of this reportf The charaºn. I Would , I Want their views on the great work we are undertaking, namely, to find out where \ the service can be improved, if it can be improved, and I 1210 am specially interested now in the question of buildings in New York City. I am interested, as you are, in this pneu- mas tube business, to find if we can get sorce unbiased opinion, because so far as I am concerned, I don't care if We have tubes or not . I am for them if we need them; I am against them if ºre don't need them, - Mr. Steener son: I guess most of us agree on that. The Chairman: Most of us agree, and we don't want any partisan discussions that are purely partisan — somebody trying to uphold an idea that he has because it is an idea . We Want the honest views. Mr. Steener son: We don't want any prejudiced views; We Want, so far as we can, the candid well—reasoned views. The Chairman: Nobody need have any fear of his job Orl this proposition. That ought to be thoroughly understood; that these men have been detailed to dio this work. They have been detailed to me, as Chairman of this Commission, and any honest report, honest views of a member on any sub- ject he investigates will be respected, and it will not be opposed by the Department. He will not suffer because he happens to differ from some other opinion which somebody else may have held heretofore, or if he holds his old opin- $º. ion, so far as that is concerned, if he has got facts to substantiate it. * We did have a time when we were bothered to get the unbiased views of employes, of the Post Office Department, because they were a little fearful, sometimes, to report on what the conditions were for fear their jobs were imperiled. Now, there is nothing of that kind to fear in this proposi- tion. The only man that need fear for his job in any way is the man who doesn't tell us the exact truth, and there i S nobody in this Committee that wouldn't do that , We recognize your peculiar experience, and the value of your investigations and your opinion on matters affect— ing the good of the Post Office Department. That is what We are after. We don't care about what old system exists, or what old one is maintained, but we do want to know what ought we do as a Congress for the benefit of the post office service in this country. That is what we are after and nothing else, and I don't think there is a man on the Com— mission who has not an open mind and is anxious to obtain information on this most difficult subject, because it is a difficult subject. We are novices so far as the real technical difficulties of the post office are concerned, and 121.2 we cannot act intelligently until we are informed, and we wānt to know the information Te set is such information as we can receive from honest investigation. Now, I am very much obliged to all you gentlemen for coming in, and We would be pleases to have you continue this work with as much expedition as possible, so that We may call upon you a. little later . Mr. Johnson: What you want particularly is on this space proposition —— you. "Want to know what We think is absolutely necessary in the Way of buildings 7 The Chairman: That is ºne thing we want to know. We want to know what this Congress ought to do now to re- lieve the situation in New York, if additional buildings are necessary to relieve it . We have got to economize . We can't put anything into this report, or ask anything of Congress that is not needed. I don't mean by that you should not take into consideration the future needs of New York. That is absolutely necessary. There is no doubt about that, but anything that We can cut out , that is not absolutely necessary, we want to cut out. "'e have got to do it, because we haven't the money to do those things . That is one question; then, there is this question With reference to the railroad space or weight system, e# 2. 1213 Whi ch should be employed? We want your views on that proposition, and anything else that is involved in this investigation that you can give us information on we will be glad to receive at your earliest Convenience, senator vaish: The Chairſ an has adequately stated the attitude of the whole commission on this matter. I am y sure we are all very anxious to get your cooperation to the fullest extent. The Chairman: And I Want to say We have no fault to find with the cooperation we are receiving. We are getting that , I am sure , and We appreciate it . Senator Walsh: We won't have any meeting in the im— mediate future, will we, Mr. Chairman? The Chairman: I don't know when we will get this information in. The experts Were directed at the last meeting to complete their survey of New York, and that is what they' are doing now. All right ; I am much obliged to you, gentlemen. That is all . (Whereupon, at l; 50 o'clock p.m., the hearing was adjourned subject to the call of the Chairman.)