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R E P 0 R T
FROM TEIE
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#- , select committer OF THE HOUSE of LoRDs)
ON THE f
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION
PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION
(No. 1) B I L L.;
TOGETHER WITH THE
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE,
AND
M I NUT E S 0 F E W I D E N C E.
Kº
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Aſ
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Session 1873.
Ordered to be printed 20th June 1873.
(i 19.)
REPORT - - - - - - - -
PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE - - -
BY THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to consider the ELEMENTARY
EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER ConFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL; and to
Report to the House:
ORDERED TO REPORT,
THAT the Committee have met, and considered the said Bill, and have
ordered the said Bill to be reported to your Lordships, with some Amendments.
And the Committee have directed the Minutes of Proceedings, together with
the Minutes of Evidence taken before them, to be laid before your Lordships.
(119.)
O R D E R O F R. E. F. E. R. E N C E.
Die Jovis, 8° Mai: 1873.
tºmºmºmºs
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order); an Amendment moved : objected to ; and
(by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; House resumed; and Bill referred to a Select
Committee.
Die Martis, 13° Mai; 1873.
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL.
Select Committee on : The Lords following were named of the Committee :
* Duke of Cleveland. Lord Bishop of Winchester.
Earl of Harrowby. Lord Kesteven.
Earl Beauchamp. Lord Lawrence.
Wiscount Eversley.
The Committee to meet on Friday next at Eleven o’clock, and to appoint their own
Chairman; and Petition of the London School Board (presented yesterday), praying to
be heard by Counsel in favour of the Bill, referred to the Committee.
Die Veneris, 16° Mai: 1873.
The Evidence taken before the Select Committee, from time to time, to be printed for the
use of the Members of this House; but no copies thereof to be delivered, except to the
Members of the Committee, until further order.
LORDS PRESENT, AND MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS AT EACH
SITTING OF THE COMMITTEE.
Die Veneris, 16° Mai: 1873.
*-* *m tºmºsºms smººse
LORDS PRESENT :
Duke of Cleveland. Lord Bishop of Winchester.
Earl of Harrowby. Lord Kesteven.
Earl Beauchamp. Lord Lawrence.
Viscount Eversley.
Order of Reference read.
Order read empowering the Committee to appoint their own Chairman.
It is moved that the Viscount Eversley should take the Chair. The same is agreed to,
and the Wiscount Eversley takes the Chair accordingly.
The course of Proceeding is considered.
It is moved by the Earl of Harrowby, That it is not desirable that the Committee
should apply to the House for leave to hear Counsel. The same is agreed to.
The Title of the Bill is read, and postponed.
The Preamble is read.
The following Witness is called in, and examined, and directed to withdraw: Mr. George
Hector Croad (vide the Evidence).
Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Monday next, at Eleven o’clock.
JDie Lunae, 19" Mai: 1873.
* -
LORDS PRESENT :
Duke of Cleveland. Lord Bishop of Winchester.
Earl of Harrowby. Lord Kesteven. r
Earl Beauchamp. Lord Lawrence.
Wiscount Eversley.
The Wiscount EVERSLEY in the Chair.
Order of adjournment read.
The Proceedings of the Committee on Friday last are read.
The following Witnesses are called in, and examined; and directed to withdraw:—
Mr. George Hector Croad; the Rev. Canon Gregory (vide the Evidence).
Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Friday next, at Eleven o'clock.
Die Veneris, 23° Mai; 1873.
*
I, ORDS PRESENT :
Duke of Cleveland. . Lord Bishop of Winchester.
Earl Beauchamp. Lord Kesteven.
Wiscount Eversley. Lord Lawrence.
The Wiscount EVERSLEY in the Chair.
Order of adjournment read.
(119.) a 3 The
•.§'s
$*.*
~ * J w [ vi
The Proceedings of the Committee on Monday last are read.
The following Witnesses are called in, and examined; and directed to withdraw:—
4. The Rev. Thomas Sharpe, Mr. Andrew Young, Mr. James Stiff, the Rev. Canon Gregory,
.# Mr. George Hector Croad, the Rev. Edward Lewis Cutts, Mr. James Watson, Mr. Isaac
James Booth, the Rev. George Allen, the Rev. Louis Stanham, Mr. Benjamin Lucraft
(vide the Evidence).
Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, at Eleven o’clock.
Die Martis, 27 Mai: 1873.
LORDS PRESENT :
Duke of Cleveland. Lord Bishop of Winchester.
Earl Beauchamp. Lord Lawrence.
Wiscount Eversley. º
The Wiscount EveRSLEY in the Chair.
Order of adjournment read.
The Proceedings of the Committee on Friday last, are read.
The following Witnesses are called in, and examined, and directed to withdraw:—The
Rev. J. Rodgers, Mr. Charles William Isitt, Mr. George Hector Croad, the Rev. George
Allen, and the Rev. William Robert Morrison (vide the Evidence).
Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Friday the 20th of June, at Eleven
o'clock.
Die Veneris, 20° Junii 1873.
*
LORDS PRIESENT :
Duke of Cleveland. | Lord Bishop of Winchester.
Earl of Harrowby. | Lord Kesteven.
Earl Beauchamp. | Lord Lawrence.
Wiscount Eversley. |
The Wiscount EveRSLEY in the Chair.
Order of adjournment read.
The Proceedings of the Committee on the 27th of May last, are read.
The Preamble is again read, and postponed.
The Clauses are severally read, and agreed to.
The Schedule is read, and some Amendments are made therein.
The following paragraph is read:—
A piece or parcel of ground situate in or near Anglers’ Gardens and Victoria Place, in
the parish of St. Mary, Islington, in the county of Middlesex, being on the north side of
Anglers’ Gardens, and on the south side of Victoria Place, and containing nineteen
thousand five hundred and seventy-five square feet or thereabouts, together with all the
messuages, tenements, and buildings now standing thereon. The names of the owners,
lessees, and occupiers of the said piece or parcel of land are as follows:–

Owners or reputed Owners. | Lessees or reputed Lessees. Occupiers.
William Reedsdale, Joseph Isaac Myers, Henry Ro- || William Meale, J oseph Wright, Mr.
Bishop, Mr. Berry. berts, Mrs. Sophia Elliott, Leach, William Brett, Charlotte
William Poole, Edmund Taylor, Mr. Lowick, Richard White,
Trendle, William Roberts, James Leach, William Hart, Louisa
Ann Weaver. Worger, Henry Murrell, Mrs. Jane
Cummings, Henry Johnson, James
Hinson, James Stephens, Mrs. Len-
nington, William King, Mary Ann
Warnam, John Wood, James Harris,
º Ellen Wardell, Thomas Bright,
Henry Harmer, Henry Ruchbrook,
Maria Bennet, John Moore.
[ vii. I
On Question, That the said paragraph stand part of the Schedule. Objected to:
Content (4). Not Content (3).
Duke of Cleveland. Earl Beauchamp.
Earl of Harrowby. Lord Bishop of Winchester.
Lord Kesteven,
Wiscount Eversley.
Lord Lawrence.
The following paragraph is then read:—
A piece or parcel of ground situate in or near Albion Cottages, in the parish of St.
Mary, Lambeth, in the county of Surrey, being on the east and west sides of Albion
Cottages, and containing eighteen thousand five hundred and ten square feet or there-
abouts, together with all the messuages, tenements, and buildings now standing thereon.
The names of the owners, lessees, and occupiers of the said piece or parcel of land and
hereditaments are as follows:—
Owners or reputed Lessees or reputed
Owners. Lessees.
Occupiers.
Octavius Bradshaw, Mar- Mrs. Reed, Mr. Fines,
#. Tyers Weller Edward Grove, James
oley. Law, Sarah Goodwin,
Charles Boore.
W. England, Mr. Clarke, William
Buckingham, James Brookes,
William Bradshaw, George Jones,
Charles Alder, William Jackson,
George Gaskin, Charles Felming,
Isaac Ross, George Trivett, George
Gaisford, William Rodden, Daniel
Ring, George Gascoine, William
Toghill, James William Yarrow,
Charles Stepney, William Skudder,
Thomas Nash, William Moth, Ed-
ward Smith. In hand, Samuel Ilett,
Charles Boore, Sarah Davis, Charles
Manning, Arthur Walters, Sophia
Waterman, Mrs. Cross, William
Bond, Ann Capon, Mrs. Kelley,
Richard Warlock, William Wilson.
On Question, That the said paragraph stand part of the Schedule. Objected to.
Content (4).
Duke of Cleveland.
Earl of Harrowby.
Viscount Eversley.
Not Content (3).
Earl Beauchamp.
Lord Bishop of Winchester.
Lord Kesteven.
Lord Lawrence.
The following paragraph is then read:—
A piece or parcel of ground situate in or near Prince of Wales, Haverstock Hill, in
the parish of St. Pancras, in the county of Middlesex, being on the south side of Prince
of Wales Road, and containing forty-five thousand six hundred square feet or thereabouts,
together with all the messuages, tenements, and buildings now standing thereon. The
names of the owners, lessees, and occupiers of the said piece or parcel of land and here-
ditaments are as follows:—
Owners or reputed Lessees or reputed
Owners. Lessees. Occupiers,
Mrs. M. A. Gribble, the The School Board for Charles Coleman, Thomas Shipwright,
School Board for London. London. ºlºmº John Farren, Mr.
OIllOI’Ol.
On Question, That the said paragraph stand part of the Schedule. Objected to.
Content (4). Not Content (1).
Duke of Cleveland. Earl Beauchamp.
Earl of Harrowby.
Wiscount Eversley.
Lord Lawrence.
The Schedule, as amended, is agreed to.
The Preamble of the Bill is again read, and agreed to.
º

(119.) The
[ wiii ]
The Title of the Bill is again read, and agreed to.
The Draft of a Report having been prepared, the same is read by the Clerk, and
agreed to (vide Report).
Ordered, That the Lord in the Chair do make the said Report to the House, and do
also report the Bill, with Amendments.
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(119.) A
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L 1 ST OF WIT N E S S E S.
Die Veneris, 16° Maii, 1873.
Mr. George Hector Croad tº- - - +-
Die Lunae, 19° Maii, 1873.
Mr. George Hector Croad - - - - -
Rev. Canon Gregory - - - tº- tº-
Die Veneris, 23° Maii, 1873.
Rev. Thomas Sharpe -, tº- - e-
Mr. Andrew Young
Mr. James Stiff -
Rev. Canon Gregory
-
-
º
-
-
Mr. George Hector Croad sº -
|Rev. Edward Lewes Cutts tº º
Mr. James Watson - - - - -
Mr. Isaac James Booth -
Rev. George Allen º º - ſº- t-
Rev. Louis Stanham me - - tº- wº
Mr. Benjamin Lucraft - - * - -
Die Martis, 27° Maii, 1873.
15.
111. 117.
PAGE
56
46
65
83
85
93
95
96
102
I 10
| 19
I 14
l 17
Rev. John Rodgers * em ºn = -
Mr. C. W. Isitt – t- - - - tº-
Mr. George Hector Croad - - - -
Rev. William Robert Morrison
121
I 37
I 38
143

Q ( 3 )
Die Veneris, 16° Mail 1873.
P. R. E S E N T :
Duke of CLEVELAND. Lord Bishop of WINCHESTER.
Earl of HARROWBY. Lord KESTEVEN.
Earl BEAUCHAMP. Lord LAWRENCE.
Wiscount EVERSLEY.
WISCOUNT EVERSLEY, IN THE CHAIR.
Mr. GEORGE HECTOR CROAD, is called in ; and Examined, as follows:
1. Lord Lawrence.] You being clerk to the London School Board, will you Mr. G. H. Croad.
be kind enough to give the Committee an outline of the rules and principles on 16th May 1873.
which the London School Board satisfy themselves of the educational wants of —
the metropolis under the Elementary Education Act, 1870?
I must ask your Lordships' indulgence while I go into these matters, because
the whole procedure of the Board depends upon them, and it is essential that
they should be clearly understood. I may say, to begin with, that before the
creation of the School Board, there was a general theory prevailing throughout
the country, which was recognised by the Education Department under all
administrations, that as a general rule, it would be necessary to provide school
accommodation in elementary schools for one in six of the population. There
is a letter from Sir Francis Sandford, recently published, in which that is laid
down authoritatively. He says, it is found to be not only theoretically, but
practically correct. The School Board for London were not satisfied to go on
any theory whatever; they were determined to ascertain the facts for them-
selves, and I hope I shall be able to show your Lordships presently that the re-
sult has been very remarkable. We arrived at the conclusion, that for the
whole of London it would be sufficient to provide school accommodation for
something less than one in seven. The practical difference between the two
results is this: that we shall have to provide school places to the amount of
90,000 less than we should have done under the ordinarily recognised theory.
With your Lordships' permission, I will now state the steps by which the School
Board for London arrived at that conclusion. The instructions of the Educa-
tion Department under which we acted were as follows:—After we had
obtained a list of all the schools in London without exception; that is to say,
of all elementary schools where the fee is 9 d. or less, we were directed
to inquire further on five points (I quote from memory at the moment) the
first of which was to ascertain what number of children between the ages of 3
and 13 throughout the metropolis required elementary schools. That is
the first point, and it is the most important part of the inquiry. Our
compulsory powers only go down to the age of five, therefore there is a
debateable ground between three and five years of age. The second point
was this, to ascertain what was the amount of accommodation in efficient ele-
mentary schools. The third point was to determine what amount of accom-
modation would have to be provided after comparing the conclusions under
heads one and two. Heads four and five were subordinate, being simply to
determine in what localities the schools should be placed, and what kind of
schools they should be. The important point to be considered is this, whether
the School Board for London were right in the mode by which they deter-
mined the number of children between the ages of 3 and 13 requiring elemen-
(119.) A 2 tary
4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE on
Mr. G. H. Croad, tary education. It so happened that the census had just been taken on
the 2nd April 1871, and the Board were directed to make this inquiry
towards the end of April. We obtained, with the assistance of the Govern-
ment, from the Registrar General a nominal list of all the children between
the ages of 3 and 13 who slept in London on the might of the 2nd April.
In view of an inquiry of our own, we had already prepared Schedules, the
headings of which were as follows: the general heading was, the parish,
ward, if any, and street: the running headings were, number or name of
house; name of head of family; occupation ; names of children, male and
female; age ; if now attending school, where 2 if not attending school, why not
There were two other columns headed, whether earning full wages or half-
timers. The Registrar General was kind enough to fill in for us about one-
half of those columns. He was able to give us, not only the parishes, the wards,
and the streets, but the number of the houses. He gave us the name of the
head of the family, and his occupation; together with the names of every child,
whether male or female, between the ages of three and five, and between the
ages of five and 13. He was able also in the next column to attach an “S,”,
to indicate “scholar,” wherever that entry appeared in the householders’ sche-
dules issued by the Census Office. So far, therefore, the Registrar General was
able to give us information, and it remained for us to supplement that informa-
tion ourselves. The way in which it was done was this: the members repre-
senting each of the 10 divisions into which London was divided were constituted
a committee. They appointed a superintendent of enumerators, and a body of
enumerators under him. These enumerators went about to every single house
in their district, and they obtained information from the parents, generally
speaking verbally, as to each of their children. The enumerator had the names
of those children, and if they were attending a school an “S.” In addition
he put against each child the name of the school he was attending,
and whether or not the child was receiving instruction at home. If
the child was not attending school, he ascertained from the parent what the
reason was. Those reasons are given on page 7, and I will go into them, if I
am permitted, a moment or two later. Finally, he added whether they were
earning full wages, or whether they were half-timers. When we had got this
information, with reference to every single child in London between the ages of
3 and 13, we proposed to tabulate the results. It was considered by the School
Board that it would be extremely inconvenient if we adopted the old parochial
boundaries. Parishes are sometimes very irregular in outline. The boundaries
often cross impassable barriers, so that, in many cases, the children could not
be conveniently grouped. We therefore broke up London into a series of sub-
divisions, each divisional committee dividing their division into blocks, within one
or two of which they might reasonably suppose that the children of that district
would find schools close at hand. The results were tabulated, and the children
were placed in these separate blocks. Now, the first point that we had to deter-
mine was this. We had here got all the children in London of every class of
society, and we had to determine what was the number of those children who
belonged to a class which would not require an elementary school, but would
require a higher class of school. There is a general theory on the subject which
applies to the whole country at large, that one-seventh of the population belongs
to the class above those requiring elementary schools. Now it is a remarkable
fact that though our inquiries were conducted by independent enumerators,
acting, to a great extent, without any clearly defined instructions, we find that
for the whole of London, the number of children requiring schools above ele-
mentary schools is 14:29 per cent., which is as nearly as possible one-seventh.
For the whole of the Metropolis, it comes out with that marvellous exactitude.
But it must be obvious to your Lordships, that that which is a general theory
as applied to the whole country, or to the Metropolis, will not at all do
when it is applied to individual localities. If you take St. George's, Hanover-
square, and Ratcliff or Shadwell, they will be very different. You will find
that, taking the 10 divisions of London, it varies very considerably. In
Some places, such as the Tower Hamlets, the lower class very much
preponderates; it is above six-sevenths; and in some parts, Chelsea, for
example, it is very much below it. The way the enumerators were to proceed
was this; they were to go upon no theory at all. We thought, first of all, that
16th May 1873.
houses
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 5
houses of such and such a ratal should be excluded, but that did not appear to Mr. G. H. Croad.
be satisfactory. Ultimately the enumerator was told to inquire of the , , . *
parent himself. It might be thought that that would introduce some ele- **Y*73.
ment of opinion, but it is really rather a question of fact ; they go to the T
parent, and the parent says, “My child is attending such a school,” a middle
class school for instance, where the fee is perhaps a pound a quarter; another
child it will be found is attending a national school, where the fee is four-
pence a week. There will be a residuum not attending any school at all,
but the difficulty with regard to these is very slight. As a general rule they
will be found in the worst quarters, and the houses where they live will
generally indicate at once that they ought, with very few exceptions, to be in
the category requiring elementary schools. That is how we determined our
first deduction for the children who belonged to a class higher than that
requiring elementary schools. We next deducted all the children who
were in institutions, such as asylums, workhouses, and so forth, and the
conclusions we arrived at were these : that the total number of children
between the ages of 3 and 13 in London, being 681,101, the children
attending schools where the fee exceeds ninepence, or being educated at home
by governesses or what not, were 97,307, and the children in institutions
amounted to 9,101. Making therefore those two deductions, the number of
children requiring elementary schools was found to be 574,693. Here, again,
we were able to analyse, and we discovered that of those 574,693, 398,679 were
attending school, that is to say, were on the roll of some school, and that there
remained 176,014 not upon the rolls of any school. The next point of our
inquiry was to analyse the 176,014 who were not attending any school; and
now I come to the remaining classes of deductions. The third deduction
was on account of children at work ; some children were working at
home, some were working abroad, either whole-time or half-time. We
thought, on the whole, that having ascertained the number of children
who were at work, school places should be provided for only half that
number; that we might strike off half the total number of workers, and
not provide school places for them. The reasons for that are, to some extent, a
matter of opinion, and that will be one of the points upon which your Lordships
will no doubt exercise your discretion; of course, with regard to those who are
working half-time, it appears to be tolerably obvious that you ought to have
only half the places, but that is not strictly the fact, because you cannot divide
the children into absolute halves, and make one attend in the morning and the
other in the afternoon. Then as to the children who were at work, our fourth
bye-law, which has received the sanction of Her Majesty in Council, allows
children to be absolutely exempt from attending school after the age of 10,
provided they have reached a certain standard in education. That standard is
the fifth of the code. Now, in the ordinary course, a child will only reach the
fifth standard in his twelfth year, therefore a boy must be exceptionally clever
if he happens to get free at the age of 10; and there will always be a certain
number of children who will not escape at all. We find, therefore, that we may
balance the one by the other, and, on the whole, taking the whole number
of children at work, whether whole-timers or half-timers, we may strike off half
the number, and not provide school accommodation for more than the remaining
half.
2. Earl Beauchamp.] Do I understand you to say that the average of children
arrive at that standard in their twelfth year 2
Yes; they usually pass from the infant school into the junior school at or a
little before the age of seven, so that a boy is in the first standard in his eighth
year, in the second standard in his ninth year, and so on, till in his thirteenth
year he may reach the sixth standard, which is the last of all. That was the
third deduction on account of workers.
3. Chairman.] You have not given us the numbers?
It was half of 28,377, which is, roughly speaking, 14,000.
4. Earl Beauchamp.] That is the half of those who were working for wages?
Yes. -
5. Looking at the tables which are before me, in Table A., I see that of those
working for wages there are two classes; those working half time 1,332, and
those working full time 27,045?
(119.) A 3 I beg
6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. G. H. Croad.
16th May 1873.
I beg your pardon; I ought to have added 9,816 for those working at home
to the 28,377 working abroad, and then divide by two. I only put it at 14,000,
on the supposition that that was half of 28,000; but it should be half of 28,377
plus 9,816.
6. Then it is half of 37,000 :
That is so ; that is the third class of deduction. Then the fourth and fifth
are matters of fact. We found that a certain number of children were ill, by
which I mean permanent illness, and we also included here those children who
had been absent, through illness, from School more than three weeks. We
thought they ought no longer to be retained on the rolls of a school, but that
their names should be removed, and that they should be placed on the roll again
when they had recovered. That was a matter of fact. The number under that
head was 14,829, for the whole of the metropolis. Then the number of disabled,
that is, cripples, or blind, or the like, who were unable to attend school, we found
to be 2,673. Those were the fourth and fifth deductions. The fourth and fifth
are mere matters of fact ; and the average in the metropolis will be pretty
COnStant.
7. Earl of Harrowby..] How do you denominate the 2,673
“ Disabled.” The next deduction which we take into account is what is
technically called “too young ; ” this is not a matter of fact, but is to some
extent a matter of opinion, and thereupon your Lordships will, no doubt, pro-
nounce a judgment. We gave instructions to our enumerators that wherever a
parent pleaded that the child was too young, and the child was between the
ages of three and five, it should be so entered in the Schedules, and we were pre-
pared at once to admit that excuse, because our compulsory powers do not extend
below the age of five. On page 17 of the Appendices to the Report, it appears that
total number of children between three and five, attending school, was 70,440 ;
and on page 33, in Table C., the total number of children between three and
five, not attending school, was 68,665, Turning back to page 1 of the Appendices,
your Lordships will observe that the number of cases in which the parents of
children pleaded that they were too young, as an excuse, was 55,760 ; that is to
say, out of 68,655 children, between the ages of three and five, not attending
school, we have made no provision whatever for 55,760; we admitted the excuse,
but we did propose to make provision for the remaining 12,000 infants, between
three and five, whose parents did not plead that they were too young. It is a
matter of opinion whether that is too much or too little ; but, distributed
throughout the 10 divisions, it comes to a very small matter. The next point
that requires just a trifling explanation, is this : there is a column there which
is headed “In the country;” it is not of much consequence, but it requires a
word of explanation. The census was taken on the night of the 2nd of April,
and as our enumerators only commenced work some time later, the consequence
is that some of the 681,101 children who slept in London on the night of the
2nd of April, were absent when the latter return was made.
8. Duke of Cleveland.] They might be accidentally absent 2
Yes, your Grace, that may be so; then the remaining column is headed,
“ neglect, and other causes,” and the whole, or the bulk of the children who
are not attending school, are to be found there. We have, up to this point,
made seven deductions; and I now come to another and last deduction,
which is again one not so much matter of fact as matter of opinion. Having
made all the deductions which we had made, we conceived that we had got
at the number of children who ought to be on the rolls of a school; and we
then proposed to consider, inasmuch as all the children cannot be present at
the same time, how many school places were necessary for those children. The
question was what we should deduct on account of temporary causes of absence,
so as to arrive at the average attendance. Here, again, we did not proceed on
theory; we sent to five schools in each of the 10 divisions of London, and
obtained returns from 30 schools in all. We asked them to place upon paper
the causes of absence of their children for a certain period, viz., for each day
throughout one week. We then analysed these causes of absence, and they
were all put down. We considered that some of them had been already dis-
counted amongst the previous deductions, because we had put down those who
were at work, and those who had been ill for more than three weeks, and those
in the country. We struck out all these absences. The excuses for certain
other
IELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROvIsIonAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 7
other absences we were not prepared to admit ; for instance, that a child had Mr. G. H. Croad.
no shoes, that he was too late ; and we found that there remained, taking tº-º-º-º:
these 30 schools, 5.09 per cent. of children who were absent on the average each 16th May 1873.
day from mere temporary causes, such as “minding baby,” “taking father's T
dinner,” errands, slight sickness, &c.
9. Earl of Harrowly.] Without cause
Not without cause, but the cause only a temporary one. It is fair to
say that these were good schools. We were placing before ourselves our
ideal. We cannot, at the present moment, hope that only one child in every
20 will be absent from School; but we look forward to that in future.
Your Lordships will see presently that we have got a very considerable
margin behind, to account for any errors which we have made in any of
our calculations. Having enumerated all the different deductions which
have been made, I now ask your Lordships kindly to turn to page 287 of the
Appèndices, and see what results we have arrived at. The last line there
shows in a summary form our grand result. The total number of children
requiring accommodation were found to be, after striking out all the invalid
excuses, 478,718. Taking from that five per cent., it reduces it to 454,783.
Now that is the number for which, abstractedly, London ought to provide
elementary school accommodation. I may point out to your Lordships that
that representing the whole of the metropolis, the number is less than one-
seventh of the whole population of London. If we had gone upon the old
theory, we should have had to provide 90,000 places more. We are going to
build, as I shall show presently, only for half the number that we should have
been obliged to build for upon the old theory.
The second point of the inquiry, and fortunately this will be much more brief,
was what was the amount of school accommodation in efficient schools. If
your Lordships will kindly turn to the first page of the printed Report—page
5, as it is numbered—I can now recall the precise words of the instructions
of the Department. The first point that I have been dealing with is this :
“ the number of children, within the limits of the metropolis, for whom means
of elementary education should be provided, between the ages of 3 and 5, and
between the ages of 5 and 13.” The second point, which I will now go into, is
the “provision to meet the requirements of these children already made by
efficient schools, or likely to be made, by schools either contemplated or in
course of erection.” I mentioned previously that the first act of the School
Board was to obtain a list of all elementary schools. That list had been handed
in to the Education Department, and the question now was to sift those schools,
and see which were efficient, and which were not. Now, all the elementary
schools in London might be divided into two classes: those which were under
Government inspection, and those which were not. With reference to which
were under Government inspection, there was no question whatever; they must
be recognised as efficient. The question was, how were we to deal with those
schools which were not under Government inspection ? We represented to the
Department that they had a staff of inspectors, and that we should have to
create one. We accordingly asked them to take the duty of inspection upon
themselves. They agreed to do so. The Government inspector, with an assistant
for each of the 10 divisions of the metropolis, went into the matter. They
visited every single elementary school which was not already under Government
inspection, and sent a report to the Department. That report set forth that a
certain number of schools were efficient, a certain number of schools were in-
efficient, either as regarded their building, that is, their sanitary condition, or
as regarded their instruction, and, lastly, that a certain number of schools were
inefficient in both respects.
10. Earl Beauchamp.] Will you just repeat that, please ?
They reported that some of the schools were efficient both in point of build-
ing, and in point of instruction; that a second class were inefficient either in
building or instruction ; and lastly, that there was a class inefficient in both
building and instruction.
11. I think we ought to have a definition of the words “efficient” and
“ inefficient ‘’”
I have not the Paper of Instructions of the Education Department to Her
Majesty's Inspectors with me. It is a paper officially within the province of the
(119.) A 4 Education
8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT CôMMITTEE ON
Mr. G. H. Croad.
16th May 1873.
Education Department; but I may state, in substance, that the Department pre-
pared a sort of schedule, by which their inspectors were guided; and I think,
when your Lordships come to see it, you will find they place the standard of
efficiency very low indeed. It defined what the children should do in reading,
writing, and arithmetic, in order to pass. That paper may be procured from the
Education Department, and laid before your Lordships; but it is not officially
in my possession.
12. Chairman.] It is not included in any report:
Not of the School Board.
13. Lord Bishop of Winchester.] It is a definition of the word which con-
stantly recurs?
I have roughly indicated what it was, as far as the test of the instruction of
the children is concerned; and, as far as the buildings were concerned, it was
merely the ordinary requirement of the new code that “the school premises
should be healthy, well lighted, drained, and ventilated, properly furnished,
supplied with suitable offices, and contain, in the principal school-room, at least
80 cubical feet of internal space, and in the School-room and classrooms at least
eight square feet of area for each child in average attendance.”
14. Earl Beauchamp.] You have not the one as regards instruction?
I have not; but I have indicated what was its general character.
15. Does that assume, as the standard of efficiency, the possession by the
teacher of a certificate 2
It does not. Many schools have been passed as efficient, where the instruction
was really efficient; but where the teachers knew nothing of a certificate.
16. Lord Kesteven. With regard to the enumeration you have given us, you
have taken all children under the age of three ?
We have struck out 55,760. .
17. Those between three and five years of age are not comprehended in the
Compulsory Education Clause
They are not, but as a matter of fact, children between three and five do
attend school. I drew . your Lordships' attention to the fact that there were
actually 70,440 children between three and five attending schools without com-
pulsion. We cannot compel them, but by gradual influence we may get in
rather a greater number. I may mention a thing which has a bearing upon
that point; our fourth bye-law says that a child who reaches a certain standard of
education shall be set free from school altogether. If that is to work, it will
be the object of parents to get their children on, and in order to do that,
they will send the children in at the lower end of the school in order that they
may escape sooner at the upper end. May I now ask your Lordships' attention
to page 10 of the Report, where this question of the schools is analysed. You
will see there that the efficient schools, together with the enlargement of existing
voluntary schools, and projected schools, all of which are included, gave accom-
modation for 312,925 children; you will also see that the schools which were
efficient in only buildings or instruction, contained accommodation for 37,995.
In the note at the bottom of the page, you will see that those which were effi-
cient in neither one nor the other contained accommodation for 63,907 children.
Now the School Board for London would have been at liberty (and I venture
respectfully to call your Lordships' special attention to this point), to strike
out from the list all schools which were condemned for both or for either.
I think your Lordships will allow that it showed the moderation of the School
Board, that they went to the Education Department with a representation that
the whole of these schools should not be condemned at once. They said, “Here
are a number of schools efficient in only one or the other ; let us give them a
period of grace, and let us see if they cannot make themselves efficient.” The
Education Department assented to that view, and notice was given to all these
schools. The Education Department made, however, one proviso. They said,
“You must not require us to examine all these schools again at the end of the
time; you must institute a preliminary examination, and send up to us only
the names of those which you think can pass.” We allowed more than three
months to pass; in fact, it was practically six months, before these schools were
examined. We gave them notice that the examination was coming on. We
Senf our own inspectors to look through the schools, and we arrived at this
result :
BLEM ENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 9
result: schools with something like 23,000 places remained just the same as Mr. G. H. Croad.
before, but schools accommodating 14,000 odd scholars, speaking in round *=ºmmºn -
numbers, had made themselves efficient. Now, all the figures in this book 16th May 1873.
proceed on the assumption that not only the efficient schools, but the semi- T
efficient schools are reckoned, and therefore, in this book, the amount of efficient
school accommodation is more by 23,000 than it should be. The School Board
have taken no steps whatever, since that inquiry, to supply the additional de-
ficiency of 23,000 school places, and things remain the same as before. They
do not propose to increase the school accommodation. Now, the result of the
second head of the inquiry was this: if I may ask your Lordships to turn to page
287 of the Appendices.
18. Earl of Harrowby.] Do you apply this equally to those which are ineffi-
cient in point of building and those which are inefficient in point of teaching?
Yes, equally.
19. And of those which in the interval had righted themselves, how many
had done so by improvement in building, and how many by improvement in
teaching 2
I could answer that question if I had here the Report of our Statistical
Committee to the Board; but I have not got it here. Unfortunately, not knowing
that your Lordships were going to take evidence to-day, we are not prepared to go
minutely into the matter. On page 287, then, your Lordships will see, side by side,
what the state of affairs was when this Blue Book was published a year ago.
The total amount of school accommodation required, which we had arrived at
after making all our deductions, and which, I venture to repeat, is less than
one-seventh of the population, was 454,783. The existing and the projected
accommodation was 350,920. Now, that 350,920 includes the 23,000 school places
which have unfortunately since had to be condemned, but on account of which we
have taken no further steps. It also includes a certain amount of projected
School accommodation, which projected school accommodation has not arrived
at a result, and which will fall through. Therefore that figure is far too high.
Setting one against the other, we find, on the whole, the deficiency of school
accommodation in London is 103,863, and we ask the authority of the Depart-
ment to build for 100,600. Now, that is merely on the gross throughout the
metropolis, and I earnestly ask your Lordships to consider this conclusion must be
looked at in detail, before we see exactly how it is. You will then understand
that the School Board have behind them a very large margin indeed to draw
upon, even after the previous deductions have been made. On page 12 of the
Report you will see how that is, set out division by division, and what it is that
the School Board propose to provide. I will ask permission to take them in a
particular order for a particular reason. If your Lordships will look first of all at
the School Division of Finsbury, it appears that after making the eight deductions
which I have previously mentioned, and comparing the children requiring ele-
mentary schools with the amount of efficient school accommodation, which, as I
have shown, is really less than it appears to be, the absolute deficiency of accom-
modation in the whole division of Finsbury is there put down as 13,135. In the
last column, your Lordships will observe that the School Board propose to build for
10,600 only. The difference between 13,135 and 10,600 is 2,535; a margin which
has been drawn upon in no way whatever. If, therefore, we have made any errors
in our previous calculation, we have something to fall back upon. If your Lordships
will now pass to Hackney, you will see a similar case ; 22,055 is the amount of
absolute deficiency, and the number to be provided for at once is 20,000. Then as
regards Lambeth, you will find the absolute deficiency is 22,265, after all the
eight deductions, and the number to be provided for is 18,450, leaving a
margin in that case of more than 4,000. Then, with regard to Southwark, the
absolute deficiency is 12,704, and the number to be provided for in that case is
11,200; Southwark comprising some of the poorest parts of London. Then,
with regard to the Tower Hamlets, the absolute deficiency is 23,962, and the
number to be provided for 19,400; leaving a margin in that case of upwards of
4,500. That is not all, my Lords; even with reference to these particular
districts, if you followed them more into detail, you would find that the amount
provided was even less, and that the margin was even greater in that case, than
when you take the districts in bulk, in this way; there is accommodation provided
in one part of the district, in excess, and there is, in another part of the district, a
deficiency of accommodation; which, taking the numbers in bulk, cancel each
(119.) B other.
10 MINUTEs of EvidENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
TMr. G. H. Croad.
16th May 1873.
other. To deal next with those cases where we appear to be building in excess
of the deficiency. It is perfectly obvious, to take the instance of Marylebone, that
school accommodation in the neighbourhood of Paddington and Tyburnia, is of no
use whatever to St. Pancras; yet taking the division of Marylebone as a whole,
they cancel each other; and the consequence is we appear to be building in excess.
But if we look at St. Pancras separatively, we shall find that we are building
under the mark. So in Chelsea, the absolute deficiency is 3,292; and we are
building for 4,900, i.e. apparently 1,600 in excess. But we are not doing so in
reality, it is because a deficiency in a poor part is cancelled by an excess in
another part far away, which excess, however, is not available for the poor part.
Taking the districts where we are building, you will find that we are almost
without a single exception under the mark. I believe I have drawn your Lord-
ships' attention to most of the salient points, and, if you will allow me, I will
recapitulate the chief ones. We had, first of all, to ascertain the number of children
between the ages of 3 and 5, and 5 and 13, requiring elementary education. If
we had gone on the ordinary theory, we should have provided for one-sixth ; we
have arrived at the conclusion that, for London, at all events, on the average, it
will only be necessary to provide for something less than one-seventh, and, beyond
that, we have the very considerable margins to which I have just drawn your
Lordships' attention. We have then ascertained what provision there was to
meet the requirements of these children in the way of efficient schools, either
contemplated or in course of erection; and, as your Lordships will see, that
exceeds, by 23,000, what is the real state of affairs. Contrasting one with the
other, we have arrived at that fraction which I have indicated before. I will
conclude by drawing attention to this, which is of the very essence of the ques-
tion, and which must be taken into account when discussing some particular
cases; that if, throughout the whole of London, we find, on the average, it is
only necessary to build for something less than one-seventh, it stands to reason
that there are certain places where we must build much more, and certain other
districts where we must build much less.
20. Earl of Harrowby..] According to the character of the population ?
According to the character of the population. I will ask attention, simply to
confirm this point, to page 49 of the Appendices ; I may say, parenthetically,
it shows the accuracy of our figures, on the whole, that when you take large
masses of the population, the figures agree so well with the recognised theory.
The total number of children in London is there given as 681,101 ; that is
less than 23 per cent. of the population. The theory of the Registrar General
is, that taking any large masses of the population, the children between 3 and 13
should be 23 per cent. ; our number is not quite 23 per cent., it is less. The fact
is that London draws to itself a large amount of adult labour, and consequently,
taking the average of the whole of London, the children between 3 and 13 are
rather under 23 per cent. Now what is the number of children that belong to the
upper and middle classes The theory is that it should be one-seventh, and our
figures singularly confirm that; you will see the per-centage columns given there.
The per-centage attending schools above 9 d. is 14:29, which is almost exactly one-
seventh. This conclusionis derived from the inquiries of Ourenumerators, whoacted
quite independently, and who left the results to be tabulated by others afterwards.
But if your Lordships will follow these figures into detail, you will see what a re-
markable variety there is ; you will see Westminster is pretty nearly an average;
the mixture of poor and rich is such as to constitute pretty nearly an average.
In Lambeth, the per-centage of the upper classes is even a little higher, because it
comprises a great many of the outlying parts, such as Denmark Hill, Norwood,
and so on, where gentlemen live in villas. On the other hand, if you go to a
district like the Tower Hamlets, what is the per-centage of the upper classes
there 2 It is only 4:43; hardly a gentleman lives in the Tower Hamlets. In
Southwark the same state of things exists. I venture to submit that all these
points, when looked at closely, will only tend to confirm the extreme care which
the School Board have exhibited in arriving at these results. They have gone
upon no theory ; they have spent a year in the process of examining these
matters, with the greatest care and deliberation, and they have arrived at a result
which will spare the ratepayers something like a million of money; because,
instead of having to spend money in providing something like 200,000 school
places, we shall only have to spend money in providing 100,000 school places.
As the repayment of the money borrowed for this purpose is spread over 50 years,
the
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 11
the charge on the metropolis year by year for the erection of schools for the
accommodation of 100,000 children, is only a very small fraction over a half-
penny in the pound.
21. Earl of Harrowby.] Is each of the divisions treated like a separate dis-
trict altogether, for all purposes?
No; everything is under the general direction of the Board.
22. But there is one general rate over the whole
There is one general rate over the whole.
23. Then do you take any note of adjacent districts that are in two separate
divisions; for instance, the adjacent districts of Chelsea and Westminster;
should you lump them together, to see whether there was a deficiency in each
part, or in the whole together:
Whenever we have considered the requirements of any one subdivision, as
we call it, we have invariably looked at the surrounding circumstances.
24. You have looked over the limits of the division to see whether there was
a surplus in the next division which might supply the wants of the one you had
before you ?
That is invariably done.
25. So that you cast a bird's-eye view over the whole, when you are con-
sidering any one part 2 g
Exactly; we have always considered the neighbouring districts.
26. Lord Lawrence.] But in doing that, I presume you were not limited by
any physical difficulty which might exist in the division, and therefore prevent
a ready access of children from one division to the other?
Clearly so, my Lord, such as a river, a canal, or a railway without bridges.
27. Or where omnibuses are running, or trams, or anything of that kind?
Yes.
28, I think I am right in saying that, barring physical obstacles, the Board
would carefully consider any elements of excess in an adjacent division or sub-
division, with reference to the deficit in the next division or subdivision ?
That is so, my Lord; if I may be permitted to illustrate it, in the third
Appendix, which gives us the conclusions, beginning at page 287, your Lordship
will see a very good illustration. Our conclusions are there divided into three
categories. We say there is a certain number of subdivisions where there is a
deficiency which cannot be met from adjacent districts; and there we state how
much shall be built: then we say there are subdivisions, where there is an excess
of accommodation, which is not available for any deficient district, that is to say,
it is too far away. Then, lastly, there are groups where the total deficiency is
balanced, or nearly so, by the total excess.
29. Earl of Harrowby..] They are not limited to certain schools by parishes,
or districts 2
No.
30. Lord Lawrence.] I think you mentioned that, although the Board applied
to the Department to be allowed to build for 100,600 children, that in fact
they have only arranged, at present, to build for 80,000
No, my Lord ; I have not mentioned that fact; but it is so. That is another
margin which I have not mentioned to your Lordships. Having arrived at the
theoretical conclusion that 100,600 is the number for which, on the whole, we
should build, we have, in consequence of things which have come to our notice
since, in several instances held our hands, and refrained from taking any further
steps to provide schools; a striking instance of that is in St. George's-in-the-East.
We found there, that the creation of certain warehouses, and so forth, was
thinning the population; and we found that there was an extensive migration.
The rates in that district were high, and people went into districts where they
were lower; therefore we stopped the erection of two schools at once.
31. In fact, you are now building for only 80,000 children?
Between 80,000 and 90,000.
32. That is so much short of the 100,600 °
Mr. G. H. Croad.
16th May 1873.
(119.) B 2 Yes.
12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. G. H. Croad.
16th May 1873.
*
Yes. The School Board would say, that in all these cases they hold
themselves free to build, if the necessity should hereafter commend itself to
them. They have not abandoned them finally.
33. Lord Kesteven.] Have you the power of extension; that is to say, to
extend your districts to some of the suburban parishes, which are becoming so
very populous !
Our metropolis is the metropolis as defined by the Metropolis Local Manage-
ment Act, and the boundaries of the latter must be enlarged, in order that we
may enlarge our boundaries.
34. You are co-terminous with those boundaries 2
We are.
35. Duke of Cleveland.] What is the amount of population included in your
district 2 >
Three millions and a quarter, in round numbers; it is rather more.
36. Lord Bishop of Winchester.] If you find a deficiency in a district, and
are settling whether or not to erect a school in it, have you any regard to the
neighbourhood of some schools already existing and considered not inefficient,
so that you would not place your school near to such a school 2 Is there any
rule of that kind, or do you deal with the district as a whole, and so, if it is
more convenient, build your new school close to an existing school which is in
itself not inefficient 3
In the first place we have to determine, as we are instructed by the Act of
Parliament, what is the absolute deficiency of the district. Of course where
the population is densely packed the schools will naturally be rather close, and
we cannot help it. Therefore, where there is an absolute deficiency, and we
have to provide for that deficiency, our schools may be in the neighbourhood
of some other schools. What we do under those circumstances, is to place it
in the best place that we can with reference to neighbouring schools, so that it
may not be too close to any one of them.
37. Mine is a general question ?
Then my answer is, generally, that we should always select that position
which would be farthest removed from the existing schools; but we could not
exempt ourselves from the duty of building, even though there were schools
there.
38. It would not be fatal to a site, that a new school was to be built close to
an already existing efficient school, if, in that district, there was a defi-
ciency?
Just so, my Lord.
39. Earl of Harrowby..] But you would avoid it if you could?
We would avoid it if we could, and would select the best position, the furthest
away from the schools.
40. Do you always consult the neighbourhood upon that point?
The Committee, which has to settle these questions, always calls into consulta-
tion the Divisional Members, who know these matters best. It is not done
from maps only, but from an actual inspection of the locality.
41. Do you make it generally known to the district, beforehand, what your
intention is, so that the people may be aware of it?
We take no means of issuing notices to any individuals in the district, and we
have not told the managers of existing schools, for example. They can only
see our operations by the proceedings of the School Board, and by the notices
on the church and chapel and vestry doors when we have to schedule sites.
42. Duke of Cleveland.] Do you take into consideration the facility, or the
non-facility, of the purchase of land? I suppose in certain localities it is much
more easy to obtain sites for your schools than in others ?
Yes, it is.
43. You take that, I presume, into consideration :
We do.
44. Lord
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROvISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL, 13
44. Lord Kesteven.] You do not consult other parties, beyond your own Mr. G. H. Croad.
Board, as to the locality of the schools; you do not call into council any paro-
chial authorities, or any other body in the district; and do not take anything
into consideration beyond the representation of your own Board 2
Yes; I may say the members of the Board are very generally in communica-
tion with gentlemen of the district, and know their views.
45. Earl Beauchamp.] Do you know that, of your own knowledge 7
I know it, in several instances, of my own knowledge; I was thinking, at the
moment, chiefly of Finsbury, where I know there is a most constant and friendly
communication between gentlemen representing the division upon the Board,
and gentlemen connected with the existing schools.
46. Lord Kesteven.] But would it not facilitate your operations if you did take
into consultation parties connected with the immediate locality ?
I am not prepared to say to what extent we have gone in that way, but I
think we have done all that is necessary, in order to arrive at a fair result, as
far as I am able to form an opinion upon the action of the Board.
47. Lord Lawrence.] With reference to the question Lord Kesteven asked,
I wish to ask you one question, Would you say, as a rule, that on the Board
preparing to select a particular site, that circumstance would be known to
people interested in the existing elementary schools in the division
My answer would be, that the proceedings of the School Board are so public,
that any single step which we proposed to take would be instantly brought to
the knowledge of the inhabitants of the neighbourhood, because the local
newspapers watch our proceedings very closely, and everything which interests
the neighbourhood is at once published in those papers.
48. Chairman.] Are there any notices published besides those which appear
in the local papers ?
No official notices. The only official notices are those which refer to scheduled
sites. Where we purchase a site by agreement, it is merely voted at the Board
meeting, and it appears in the papers in the ordinary course.
49. Lord Lawrence.] As a rule, where parties have been interested in the selec-
tion of sites, they have come forward and made their dissatisfaction, where
dissatisfaction existed, known to the Board 7
As far as I know, they have done so.
50. Have the Board given facilities to such persons to have their complaints
heard 2
Invariably.
Adjourned to Monday next, at Eleven o'clock.
16th May 1873.
(119.) B 3
( 14 )
( 15 )
JDie Lunae, 19° Mai, 1873.
P. R. E S E N T :
Duke of CLEVELAND. Lord Bishop of WINCHESTER.
Earl of HARROWBY. Lord KESTEVEN.
Earl BEAUCHAMP. Lord LAWRENCE.
Wiscount EVERSLEY.
WISCOUNT EVERSLEY, IN THE CHAIR.
Mr. GEORGE HECTOR CROAD, is recalled; and further examined,
as follows:
---, zºº
51. Chairman.] You said in your evidence on Friday, that you could give us Mr. G. H. Croad.
some returns of the Education Department; have you brought them with
you ?
Yes (producing the same). It so happens that with regard to the question of
efficient schools, and the standard which was adopted in reference to the
instruction, I am sorry to say that I have only been able to find that one copy
(producing it). It is a transcript of that which the Education Department
themselves have used ; we adopted the same standard as they did in our
preliminary examination.
52. Have you got any map of the divisions and subdivisions of the
metropolis 7
Yes (producing the same).
53. Will you describe to the Committee in what way these divisions have
been formed ; I understood you to say that London had been divided into a
certain number of large divisions, and that those divisions had been divided
again into subdivisions; can you explain to the Committee exactly on what
principle those subdivisions are formed ?
That (producing it) is a map of one portion of Lambeth. Each of these is
what we call a subdivision; the scale is six inches to the mile.
54. Do these subdivisions follow at all the boundaries of parishes
They do not follow the boundaries of parishes. In each division it was
referred to the divisional members to mark out these maps, and it was done
under their superintendence : it was supposed that they had the best local know-
ledge. The object was to divide them into such subdivisions as were compact
and hung well together; choosing generally for the boundaries broad thorough-
fares, or canals, or railways without arches, or what not.
55. The schools already established were schools established in parishes,
were they not ?
They were generally, as far as the Church of England is concerned, estab-
lished according to ecclesiastical divisions.
56. How did you avoid interfering with those schools, if you placed your
school in one of these divisions without reference to the parish Ż
After the district had been mapped out, we obtained statistics of each sub-
division separately, showing what the population was, and what the schools in
19th May 1873.
(l 19.) B 4 that
16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
that subdivision were, and we looked also at neighbouring subdivisions in
coming to any settlement.
57. You calculated the deficiency in education in that particular subdivision,
and endeavoured to supply it :
Yes.
58. Duke of Cleveland.] How many subdivisions have you formed within the
district of Lambeth P &
I do not remember the exact number, but if we take the alphabet straight
through, I see we have got into the alphabet for the sixth time, running as
far as B.
50. You have a certain number of divisions which you have stated, and you
divide each of those divisions into so many subdivisions
Yes, as marked here.
60. There is no specific number of subdivisions in any one division?
No ; they vary so much in area.
61. You mean that the divisions vary, and the subdivisions consequently
vary also 2
Yes, the subdivisions also vary.
ð2. Have you any rule with regard to the number of inhabitants to be
included in a subdivision ?
We had in idea a maximum of something like 10,000 in a subdivision; but
of course that could not always be arrived at ; that was the approximate idea
to be reached.
63. Ten thousand in each subdivision ?
Yes.
64. It would vary of course to a certain degree with the class of society 2
The better classes of population would not be so thickly packed, and it would
come out in that way.
65. That is with reference to the general arrangement; now, as I under-
stood, you were guided in the formation of the subdivisions by the leading
persons in that subdivision, or by leading persons connected with schools in
that subdivision, or by what principle were you mainly guided ?
The members who had been elected on the School Board to represent those
divisions superintended it; that having been done out of the office, I am not
aware to what extent they called in local assistance, but of course their own
local knowledge was great.
66. You were mainly guided by their opinion 3
Yes.
67. Earl Beauchamp.] You stated, in answer to me on Friday, in answer to
Questions 14 and 15, that as regards the standard of efficiency, which was
recognised by the School Board acting under the instructions of the depart-
ment, the possession of a certificate was not considered essential?
That they should be certified masters was not essential.
68. Your answer to Question 15 was this : “Many schools have been passed
by us as efficient where the instruction was really efficient, but where they knew
nothing of a certificate ’’:
Yes, quite so; many schools were passed as efficient where there were not
certificated masters; that I understood to be the drift of the question.
69. Your answer was, “where they knew nothing of a certificate ’’’
I may have loosely worded my answer, but the intention was what I have
now explained.
70. You have been good enough to put in this morning a circular issued by
the School Board for London, dated March 1872, signed by yourself, as clerk
of the Board, which contains this paragraph : “In order to make your school
efficient in instruction, it will be necessary that one of the two following
methods should be adopted ; first, that the principal teacher should be certi-
ficated,” and so on ?
“One of the two,” you will observe, are the words used; and then follows
the
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PRovisionAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 17
tº *
the word “or,” in italics, and then there is a second mode of testing the Mr. G. H. Croad.
question of efficiency.
71. I see the word “or" at the end of the paragraph; but to what does
that disjunctive apply 3
To the second paragraph at the end of the letter.
1 9th May 1 873.
72. It is not an indispensable condition then that the teacher should be
certificated : g
That is one of the conditions.
º
73. The disjunctive “or,'
which I have already read :
The words “one of the two following methods" govern the two clauses;
either they must engage certified teachers, or submit to this examination.
is part of a sentence, beginning with the words
74. But has any school been passed as efficient where the principal teacher
was uncertificated 2
A very large number indeed; nearly all the adventure schools are in that
position.
75. That is because they do not receive the Government grant?
And other schools which are not under inspection also. There is a very con-
siderable number of schools which have been passed by the Education Depart-
ment, and by ourselves, acting as their agents, as efficient, which have not
certificated teachers, where the children, in point of fact, submitted to the exa-
mination referred to in the second paragraph of that letter, and satisfied the
inspectors that they could reach it. You will observe that for children over 10
years of age it was only the second standard.
76. Do I rightly understand that the School Board in setting to work to put
the machinery of the Act into operation considered that it was their duty to
provide elementary schools for all the children for whom accommodation was
not provided ?
For all the children for whom efficient elementary education was not other-
wise provided; that is the 5th Section of the Act.
77. In the 5th Section of the Act, it is said that provision shall be made “in
public elementary schools (as hereinafter defined), available for all the children
resident in such district, for whose elementary education efficient and suitable
provision is not otherwise made " ?
Yes.
78. And then the Department under Section 8 of the Act, are ordered to
“consider whether any and what public school accommodation is required for
such district, and in so doing, they shall take into consideration every school,
whether public, elementary, or not,” and so on ? gº
That is so.
79. And that refers to the adventure schools on which you have touched
Efficient adventure schools.
80. In reference to those adventure schools, did the Board consider that
they were bound by the limit of 9 d. 2
Yes, they did. No school in which the fee exceeded 9 d. enters into our
calculations.
81. But then the Act merely says, that no school shall be considered an
elementary school “at which the ordinary payments in respect of instruction
from each scholar exceed 9 d. a week’’; that is in the definition in
Section 3 F
Yes, that is so.
§2. In Section 8 they are to take into consideration every school, “whether
public, elementary or not, and whether actually situated in the school district
or not, which, in their opinion, gives, or will, when completed, give, efficient
elementary education to, and is, or will when completed, be suitable for the
children of such district” 2
Quite So.
(119.) C 83. Therefore
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* *
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* --
* Mr. G. H. Croad,
Agth May 1873.
18. MINUTEs of EvilDENCE TAKEN BEFORE, SELECT COMMITTEE on
id: *
83. Therefore I wish to know why the Board, in considering the accommoda-
tion for elementary instruction, took no account whatever, and made no
inquiries with regard to adventure schools, where more than 9 d. was paid :
Because there are two sides to the account, and we had already eliminated
on the one side all children who attended schools where the fee was above 9 d.,
and, therefore, it was necessary on the other side to make a corresponding
subtraction.
84. Did the parents make a return of what school the children attended?
They told our enumerator what school the child attended, and whether the
fee was above 9 d. or not. We had first a complete list of every child who
slept in London on the 2nd of April; our enumerator went to the parents and
ascertained the facts as to each child; the parents stated whether the child
attended such and such a school, and whether the fee was above 9 d. or
below 9 d.
85. With regard to the effect of compulsion, I think you have now some
experience of the effect of compulsion; you have issued some notices and
summonses 7 &
We have.
86. In what districts 2
Throughout the whole of London ; I will not say in every district, but in
nearly every district.
87. When were they issued ?
Our first visitor, I think, was appointed on the 6th of March in last year,
but I do not think that we can be said to have been fairly at work for much
more than 9 or 10 months.
88. Will you explain what machinery you adopt in order to compel children
to come to school '!
Of course we are not required to do more, if the child does not attend, than
summon the parents before a magistrate ; but the Board have endeavoured to
be much more considerate than that would imply. Their course was this : in
each division of London the members representing that division, and if they
thought fit a number of gentlemen and ladies resident in the district united
with them, have been constituted a divisional committee; this divisional com-
mittee has under its orders a Superintendent of visitors, and visitors, calculated
roughly on the scale of one for every five thousand children requiring elemen-
tary education. These visitors are supposed to make themselves acquainted
with all the children of their district ; of course it has been a work of much
time, and we cannot say that even yet it is by any means accomplished, but they
are gradually performing that duty. The visitors find that such and such
children are not attending school.
89. May I ask whether these visitors are paid
They are paid. g
90. At what rate :
The male visitors begin with a salary of 80 l., the female visitors begin with a
salary of 50 l. There are certain details of arrangement by which we increase
their salaries, if they do their work in a thoroughly satisfactory manner, rising to
100 l. in the one case and to 70 l. in the other. Supposing that a visitor finds a
child in his or her district not attending School, the first method is to serve the
parents with notice A, that is to say, a notice to attend a meeting of the divi-
sional committee; they are merely invited to attend. If they pay no attention
to that notice they are served with notice B; that is a little stronger; they are
required to attend, and it is pointed out to them that if they do not they will
be liable to a summons. We produce a great effect simply by those two notices;
when we get to the summons we have generally for one summons perhaps
caused two or three dozen children to attend School without any such summons.
91. What would be the age of the children so brought in 2
It must necessarily be between 5 and 13.
92. The visitors would not take any cognisance then of children between
three and five 2
No ;
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 19.
*$º **** * # *.
No ; they would enter them on their schedules; they would take possession Mr. G. H. Croad.
of the fact that they were in the district; but they would not take any step to
compel them to go to School.
og. How many of those visitors are receiving salaries at the present time P
There are upwards of 100 ; I cannot say at this moment exactly how many.
94. Would there be 150 ! • ,
No ; something in excess of 100: I should think probably about 120.
19th May 1873.
95. I think in Westminster you have a very slight deficiency of accommo-
dation, according to the calculations of your Board 2
That is so.
96. Have you had any experience of what the effect of compulsion has been
in bringing children to school in Westminster ; in Westminster you have
adequate accommodation for very nearly all the children that can be compelled
to come, have you not 7
I have here a table which bears upon that question. We made a com-
parison between the time when the School Board started, that is the spring of
1871, and Christmas of last year; that is a period of about one year and nine
months; and I find that in Westminster the average attendance (that will be
best test) in schools at Easter 1871 was 13,526. In the same schools at
Christmas 1872 the average attendance was 15,929. Therefore, as far as those
schools are concerned, there was an increase of more than 2,000, namely,
about 2,400. But, in addition to that, other schools have been opened, volun-
tary schools, in the interval, and I find that there was an attendance,
which of course will be an absolute increase, of 2,108. I mean that, in volun-
tary schools opened in connection with those already stated, there was an
increase of 2,108 from what we may call enlargements; and then there was
one absolutely new school added, where there was an attendance of 295.
97. Making a total of how much 3
Of course it would be the difference between 15,900 and 13,500 : say 2,400;
then, adding the 2,108 and the 295, it would be getting on for 5,000.
98. You must make some slight allowance for increase of population, must
you not : ¥
Yes; but Westminster is not a district where the increase is very great; it
is pretty well built over, and is not like Chelsea in that respect.
99. Can you tell how many visitors were appointed for Westminster?
There are five visitors for Westminster.
100. How many male, and how many female P
There are four male and one female visitors.
101. Can you give us their salaries 7
I take it that the four men all started at 80 l. and the woman at 50l. I do
not think in any of those cases the salary has been increased, because very few
of our visitors have been more than a year at work, and we do not allow any
increase in less than a year.
102. But they will be getting more when they have completed a year?
If the committee report that they have done their work exceptionally well;
not as a matter of course.
103. I understand you to say that the average attendance in Westminster
is the best test of what is being done :
Well, I should like to make a brief statement, to point out that we have not
yet attacked inefficient schools at all. There are a great number of children
attending inefficient schools in Westminster, whom, if we applied compul-
sion, we might turn out of the inefficient schools. We have not done so.
Possibly the question may come before the Court of Queen's Bench, whether
we have the power to do so forcibly, or only, so to speak, by competition.
Another point is, that these schools must be suitable as well as efficient. Now,
I have heard from the superintendent of visitors for Westminster that a great
many more children could be got to school if only we had suitable schools to
send them to ; but the fact is, that the schools have fees too high, or are not of
a character to which the children can easily go. Those two points are sufficient
(119.) C 2 to
20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN Beroneºge COMMITTEE ON
wº *...
}
& * & e * * > ūy
Mr. G. H. Croad to show that the increase in Westminster might have been greater if the
19th May isis.
circumstances had been different.
104. Earl Harrowby..] The schools are too good, you mean?
Yes, we want a number of penny schools scattered about Westminster, in fact.
105. Something nearer to a ragged school
Yes.
106. Earl Beauchamp.] Have you circulated lately quarterly returns of the
attendance of children attending the Board schools
Yes.
107. Will you be good enough to refer to the summary; the summary gives
the total number on the rolls of the Board schools as 35,766, does it not :
That is so.
108. And the total highest number of attendance on any day is 28,711 ?
Yes.
109. But the total average attendance is 22, 145?
That is so.
1 10. What is the per-centage of 22, 145 to 35,766 °
There will be something more than 33 per cent. of absence. But a little
explanation will be required even here. Of course, if there are that number
upon the rolls, whilst the accommodation is only 33,688, you must take it upon
that number ; and I should say that that is calculated upon the barest eight
square feet. Then, taking the 22,000 against the 33,000, that is two-thirds,
leaving about 33 per cent.
1 1 1. I asked your attention not about the accommodation, but as to the
number on the rolls, as compared with the average attendance 2
It would be a trifle more than 33 per cent. of absence.
112. That is tested by the actual experience of your own Board schools 2
Yes; but your Lordship must be aware that the Board schools are about the
worst in London, so far as the children from whom they are drawn are concerned,
children playing about the streets, and so on.
1 13. On the other hand, the education is very superior 2
Our aim is to make it good in the end, but at present it is of a very elemen-
tary character.
114. I want to ask you whether in the face of the experience now gained,
showing that there is a difference between the total number on the rolls, and
the total average attendance of 33 per cent., the figures of the School Board
Report, which deduct merely 5 per cent. for temporary absences, do not require
some correction when tested by the light of experience, as distinguished from
theorv -
lm 'the first instance we have as against the Board schools, which contain
the roughest children of Dondon, these returns from 30 schools, collected
throughout London.
1 15. We must take the average, and not the picked schools?
These figures are estimated in the hope of what we may reach. Of course
5 per cent. at the present moment is absurd ; we merely look upon that as an
ideal to be reached, and only in reference to temporary causes.
116. Would it not be better, under those circumstances, to provide what is
absolutely required for the present moment by making allowance for something
nearer 33 per cent. deduction, than to launch at once into a scheme which pro-
vides for the deduction of only 5 per cent. :
But I ventured to point out on Friday that although we have taken only
5 per cent., we have left a considerable margin behind in case of any error ; we
are not building up to our theory, but far below it.
117. When you have made deductions for the children who do not get on
the rolls, have you any right to fall back upon them as any part of the margin of
the
ELEMENTARY Epupation provisionAL order confirmation BILL, 21
the difference between the number on the rolls, and the average attend-
ance 2 -
But in these Returns which we obtained here as the basis of our calculation
of 5 per cent., there are a great number included already discounted and taken
into account. I have those Returns here, and can show you how they were
obtained; we sent to 50 schools in London. I quite admit that they were
schools were the numbers were large, and where the attendance was therefore
likely to be good ; we sent to five in each division, but we had returns from
only 30 altogether. These returns are all tabulated. They gave their own
account of the absence of children, and they come under these heads, “family
illness,” including “death in the family;” “serious sickness;” “slight sickness;”
“working at home;” “working out ;” “errands;” “father's dinner;” “mind-
ing baby;” “seeking work;” “in the country;” “ on pleasure;” “weather;”
“no boots;” “poverty;” “too late;” “truant;” and “unknown.”
118. Are these Board schools, of which you are speaking?
These are not Board schools, but schools already in existence.
119. What fees were paid at these schools?
That I could tell by referring to each school individually in our Returns;
but they were of all classes, although they were large schools. Your Lordship
will remember that I pointed out that where a child had been ill more than
three weeks, we entered him in the “ill’ column, and he has already been
deducted. \
120. There will always be a certain number of children in your allowance
permanently disabled and ill?
Yes; but the question is whether we have already taken these into account,
or not. “Working at home and out,” we had already taken into account ;
“in the country,” we had already taken into account. All those, therefore, had
to be subtracted. -
121. You had taken them into account So far that you did not calculate them
as being on the rolls? •
So far that they had been already discounted for. In the eight deductions
which I pointed out to the Committee, we have already made allowances for
these particular causes of absence.
122. That is so far as not being on the school books at all goes 2
It does not matter whether you make the deduction amongst the permanent
or amongst the temporary, so long as you do make the deductions. Then there
were one or two other causes probably which we are not prepared to admit in
the new state of affairs, for instance, that a child should stay away from school
because he had no boots or because he was too late, and was excluded at the
half hour, and so forth ; but there remained a certain number of temporary
causes which must be taken into account, such as “ sickness,” “errands,”
“father's dinner,” “minding baby,” “seeking work,” “on pleasure,” and
“unknown.” Now, for the whole of these schools, and taking into account
every cause of absence whatever, the per-centage of absence was only 17 per
cent. ; but when you subtracted from that 17 per cent., the permanent causes
of absence that we have already discounted, it was reduced to 5:09 per cent.
123. When you have taken those “ill,” “disabled,” “too young,” “working
at home,” and all those deductions, you estimate the number of children whom
you would have on your rolls P .
Not as far as the “ill,” to begin with, are concerned, simply because a school
will keep a child who is away from illness on its rolls much longer than three
weeks, whereas we have struck out all those ; we considered that we had
already taken the children returned as permanently ill into account. So, again,
in the rolls of many schools there would be the half-timers, but we had already
accounted for the half-timers; we were not, therefore, to reckon them over a
Second time.
124. Lord Kesteven.] The half-timers are very small in number, are
they not
They are not a very large number, certainly.
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
(119.) C 3 125. Earl
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE sº. ECT gowmīTTEE on.
o ** *** * *ś,
125. Earl Beauchamp.] Now, take page 53 of the Appendix of the Report of
March 1872, and take the efficient schools (A); the number of scholars on the
roll there is 266,352.2 • ,
Yes.
126. The actual attendance is 180,365 :
Yes.
127. The difference between those two figures, namely, 86,000, is the
difference between the number of scholars on the roll and the total attendance,
is it not ?
Yes, that is so.
128. What is the per-centage of 86,000 to 266,352
It is an absence of a little less than 33 per cent. ; here, again, the efficient
schools comprise not only schools under Government inspection, but all schools,
even adventure schools, which have passed with a very low standard, and which
hitherto have not been subject to compulsion. The bye-law to which I refer
states that if a child does not attend 25 hours a week during the time the
school is opened, there shall be a penalty imposed.
129. Taking now (B) the partially efficient schools, the number of scholars
on the roll is 32,790, and the total actual attendance 23,400 !
Yes.
130. And what is the per-centage there of the difference between the actual
attendance and the number on the rolls :
There, again, it is a little less than 33 per cent.
131. Then the total is given at the bottom of the page, as 299,142 of the
number of scholars on the roll, and the total attendance is given as 203,765 :
There, again, the difference is a little less than 33 per cent. ; that is
including a certain number already allowed for in our returns, of course.
132. Going back again to page vii of the Report, the “ill” are stated as
14,829; would any proportion of those 14,829 be reckoned among the 299,000
at the bottom of the page 53 of the Appendix 2
I take it that they would.
133. Would the “disabled ”?
No.
134. Would the “too young’’’
No.
135. Would the “working at home” P
I think in that case some of them would, though, perhaps not a large number,
they do attend school in a very irregular fashion. So would some of the
“working abroad,” and the half-timers would certainly be among them.
136. Lord Kesteven.] How do you account for the great disproportion be-
tween the boys and girls working at home; at the bottom of page 7 of the
Appendix, the boys are stated at 296, and the girls at 1,771 ?
That really is domestic service; cooking the dinner, and so forth ; minding
baby, for example, and so on.
137. Earl Beauchamp.] You told us with reference to the infants, the
children between three and five, that the number of those children was
139,095?
Yes.
138. And that the number attending schools were 70,440 °
Exactly so.
139. And that those not attending were 68,655 °
Yes.
140. Then, you arrived at the conclusion by inquiry of the parents, I think
We did.
141. And the number of cases in which the parents pleaded that the
children were too young was 55,660 !
Yes, that is so.
142. And
ELEMENTARY EDUCATI ony PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 23
143, And the rest of the parents seem to have made no answer at all; they
gave you no reason 3
That is so.
143. With regard to these children between three and five, over whom you
have no compulsory power, and whose parents declined to give you any infor-
mation, why should the School Board provide accommodation for 13,000 :
We looked upon it that if the parent did not consider the child too young, it
was because there was no infant school in the neighbourhood that the child did
not go to school, and that by our fourth bye-law, letting children go to work at
a certain age, where necessary, the tendency would be to bring in children at
the other end of the scale.
144. You assumed that these parents who did not take the trouble to give
you any answer were likely to avail themselves of educational means, supposing
they were provided in their immediate neighbourhood?
We assumed that those parents who did not plead that the children were too
young would be likely to do so, and we have found from subsequent inquiry that
there is an enormous deficiency of infant school accommodation, which will
account for the fact that a very large number do not go to School. No doubt
more infants would go if there were accommodation ; in some places, I think,
children even below three go to School.
145. Do you call it going to school 2
They begin to learn the first rudiments of order and discipline, and when
a child of that age goes to school, the elder girl, who would be kept at home
otherwise to mind it, is able to go too.
146. Lord Kesteven.] Are not these very young children sent to school to
get rid of them that the mother may go out to work :
That is so, no doubt.
147. Earl Beauchamp.] Do you think it right that the rates of the metro-
polis should bear the expense of accommodation for taking care of children
of those tender years merely for the purpose of teaching them order and
discipline :
I think unquestionably it is right.
148. Lord Lawrence.] Is it not in evidence before the Board on the part of
several schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, more or less eminent, that the fact
of very young children going to school has a great influence afterwards upon
their progress in learning when they come to the later ages?
That is undoubtedly so ; we have the evidence in particular of the master
and mistress of the Home and Colonial Schools in Gray's Inn-road, very
strongly to that effect.
149. Was it not on one particular occasion remarked by one of the mis-
tresses, who is well known for her capacity in training children, that it was
equal to something like a year in their subsequent training
That is so.
150. That the order, and discipline, and training in obedience, and so forth,
had a marked effect on their subsequent progress?
Yes, I believe you are referring to the evidence of Miss Chessar, which was
distinctly to that effect.
151. Earl Beauchamp.] Are there not many other benevolent plans and
schemes for the benefit of children of tender years which conduce to their
success in subsequent life, the expense of which ought not to be defrayed out
of the rates ?
Yes, certainly ; and a plan has been before the School Board of establishing
regular crèches or baby rooms, but we have not entertained it because we did
not consider that that was strictly within our scope.
152. Upon what clause or section of the Act do you ground the obligation
of providing accommodation for children between the ages of three and
five 7 -
There is nothing in the Act to imply any obligation to provide education for
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
(119.) C 4 children
24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. G. H. Croad children between any particular ages whatever. What we have to guide us is the
19th May 1873.
practice of the country, and if we find that voluntary schools are already doing so,
and that the Education Department has sanctioned it, the School Board would
not have been doing right if they had taken an exceptional course and refused
to do that which other schools were doing.
153. The schools to which you refer have been built by voluntary effort, are
they not :
They are supported to the extent of about one-third of their cost by voluntary
effort.
154. One-third by subscription, one-third by payment, and one-third by the
Government grant?
Which last of course comes out of the public purse as much as the rates.
155. But the Board schools are entirely maintained at the expense of the
rates, are they not
No, there are the fees from the children also.
156. They are not voluntary schools
Those are the terms used to distinguish the one from the other.
157. Because you find that persons by voluntary efforts in different parts of
the country have discharged religious and charitable obligations, the School
Board have taken upon themselves obligations which are not plainly imposed
upon them by the Act of Parliament :
I might ask how the School Board were to fix upon any age whatever.
158. For instance, when you refuse, as you told us to open a crèche, how do
you distinguish between the case of a crèche for children between two and
three and providing school accommodation for children immediately above
three, merely for the purpose of teaching them habits of order and discipline,
and not for the purpose of providing them with elementary education ?
Some extent of elementary education is instilled into them even at that early
age. But there is the fact that there were between the ages of three and five
70,000 children attending school; was the School Board for London to make
itself exceptional and refuse to accept them, particularly when we had made
provision to let children get free for work at the upper end of the scale?
159. Lord Lawrence.] By the Act we are bound to provide sufficient and
suitable accommodation for the educational wants of all the children of the
metropolis, is not that the case ?
That is so.
160. That being the case, did not the Education Department interpret that
portion of the Act so as to include children between 3 and 13 ×
Our instructions were to ascertain for how many children between the ages
of 3 and 5, as well as between the ages of 5 and 13, elementary instruction
was necessary.
161. Inasmuch as it was shown to the Board that the instruction and training
of young children between the ages of three and five would facilitate their sub-
sequent career in elementary education, was it not the case that the Board
conceived that it would be very unreasonable if they made an exception with
regard to children between the ages of three and five :
Yes, that is so.
162. Lord Beauchamp.] As regards the upper classes, you told us, in your
evidence, this : “The next point of our inquiry was to analyse that 176,014
who were not attending our School; and now I come to the remaining classes
of deductions; the third deduction was on account of children at work; some
children were working at home, some were working abroad either whole-time
or half-time,” and those are given in the Report as half-timers 1,332, and the
whole-timers 27,045, making a total of 28,377; now, how many did you provide
accommodation for 2
It was about 19,000 out of 38,000; it is 19,096.
163. I find it stated in the Report, page 11, that the Half-time Acts are
“almost a dead letter.” In what sense are the Half-time Acts a dead letter?
Well,
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 25
Well, in London they have been little in force in comparison with the country
hitherto. We are now beginning to work into the hands of the factory and
workshops inspectors, and we hope that the result will be to make them more
thoroughly efficient; but they prevail much more in the manufacturing districts
than they do in London; children in London have run about, and not troubled
themselves about half-time or anything else ; they have simply stayed away
from school altogether.
164. Have you your bye-law, No. 4 3
Not at this moment, but I can give you the substance of it; bye-law, No. 4,
is in two subdivisions. One refers to children who have reached a certain
standard; that was framed on the basis of the 74th section of the Act, and it
allows every child who has reached the fifth standard of the Code of, I think,
1871, to be entirely free from attendance at school. The second part of the
bye-law refers to children who are beneficially and necessarily at work, and
those the School Board were prepared to exempt for half the time, that is to
say they were another class of half-timers, in addition to those recognised by
the Workshops and Factories Act.
165. Earl of Harrowby.] It was not to be half the day but half the year, in
some shape or other, was it mot ?
Not less than 10 hours a week.
166. Do you mean at the rate of 10 hours, or do you mean 10 hours in every
week 2
Ten hours in each week.
167. They must always have in each week 10 hours of schooling :
62S,
168. Earl Beauchamp.] That applies to the children who have reached the
standard that you have described ?
Those who have reached the fifth standard would be wholly exempt.
169. They are not half-timers ?
No.
170. Duke of Cleveland.] They have passed an examination ?
Yes, they would be entirely exempt; they need not attend school at all after
that time.
171. Earl Beauchamp.] Take the half-timers who attend 10 hours in each
week; what qualification is necessary for them to obtain that privilege?
After the age of 10, all that we required to be satisfied of was, that they were,
to use the terms of the bye-law, “beneficially and necessarily at work.” We
felt that there were many families that could not, by any possibility, get on
without the labour of their children, and, therefore, even if they had not reached
any standard at all, we were prepared after the age of 10, to exempt them,
except for the 10 hours a week, from attendance at school.
172. Would that be in the morning, or afternoon, or evening 7
That is a debateable point. The Board, no doubt, meant during morning or
afternoon school; but the bye-law is so worded that it might be possible for
them to attend in the evening.
173. It would not be necessary then to take them into account in the accom-
modation to be provided ?
But we are making all the exertion we can to get them at the morning or the
afternoon School.
174: Does not. it stand to reason that the boys working for their maintenance,
work in the daytime, and if they come to school at all, would come to school in
the evening 2
That is in human mature, or, at all events, in boy nature; but we should
contend against it as much as we could.
175. Whom do you call the whole-timers, who are stated 27,000 :
I mean those who are at work, without going to school at all.
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
(119.) D 176. Who,
26 MINUTEs of EvilDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT committEE on
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
176. Who, being of the age of 10, have passed the fifth standard 2
Yes.
177. And those amount to 27,000; you deduct them absolutely 7
Our bye-law was not at that time constructed, so, of course, these were simply
children working without going to school at all, but who are now supposed to
be within the law; they must go back to school unless they can pass that stan-
dard. The full effect, of course, of the bye-laws of the Board will not be ascer-
tained for some time, and a great deal that we intend to enforce is not enforced,
because there are not suitable or efficient schools for the children. As we
gradually get our schools up, we shall, of course, bring all the force of the bye-
laws to bear much more effectively.
178. Can you tell me what mumber of vacancies there are in efficient
schools P 3.
I think something between 90,000 and 100,000; and that requires some
explanation. Those vacancies are to a great extent fallacious, for three or four
I'éaSOI].S.
179. Do you mean that they do not exist 7
I mean that they exist only on paper.
180. Will you explain your meaning further
First of all (and perhaps they are the chief class), there are vacancies in
schools which are in parts of the metropolis that are over-schooled, or in rich
parts of the metropolis which are not available for the poor. As I had the
opportunity of pointing out on Friday, Paddington, for example, and the
neighbourhood has a great number of vacant places, but there are no children
to send into them, and of course they are no good to the children who live two
miles off, at St. Pancras.
181. Lord Kesteven.] Do you call Paddington and St. Pancras both in the
Marylebone Division ?
Yes.
182. The return of non-attendance in that division is less than in any other?
There are 19,000 not attending in Marylebone. You will find that those are
nearly all, or the great majority of them, in St. Pancras, which is without a sufficient
number of schools. Then the second cause is, that they are very often schools of
3d, 4d., and 6d. a week, and that there are colonies of children near them whose
parents can by no means pay such fees. A third class of cases is the military
schools which are to be found in some districts, and which are available only
for the children of soldiers, and if those places are not filled up, civilians cannot
fill them up. A great number of those vacancies, again, are not in schools
under Government inspection, but in adventure Schools, and if the master or
mistress cannot tempt the parents to send the children the vacancies will
remain. I am not aware that I have enumerated all the causes, but those are
the chief causes why the vacancies are more theoretical than practical. I should
like to mention one other; that is, in regard to the eight square feet always
taken as the standard. In voluntary Schools, long before you fill up the school
to the number of one child to eight Square feet, you find that you have not
room enough, and begin to build; in point of fact, you want open room, where
the teacher may stand, where his desk may be placed, his easel and blackboard,
and all the rest of it ; and when that is taken into account, eight square feet is
not very much, and certain tables of the Education Department which I have
seen take it at 10.
183. Earl Beauchamp.] The question is, whether theories in educational
philanthropy ought to be adopted in the matter?
We do limit ourselves to eight square feet in these calculations.
184. Lord Kesteven.] Do you make no allowance for the teacher's desk?
No; it all has to come out of the eight square feet.
185. And do you find that insufficient?
We do find it insufficient. I may mention that, in the schools we are build-
ing, we are building at the rate of nine square feet for the boys and girls. We
think eight square feet sufficient for the infants, but we have given one foot
additional for boys and girls.
186. Earl
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 27
186. Earl Beauchamp.] I was asking about the average number of vacancies;
does the Report of the Statistical Committee give any information on that
subject 7
#. (producing them) are certain appendices which the Statistical Com-
mittee is now preparing ; they are not yet passed by that committee, but it is
intended that the first appendix shall be a revision of the schools, striking out
those no longer efficient, and adding the enlargements and the new schools; the
second appendix will show what the School Board is doing to meet the deficiency
stated in the first Blue Book; and the third is simply a list of Board schools.
187. Does this Report show the number of vacancies in efficient schools re-
cognised by the Board 2
It shows it inferentially, because taking any page, 72 for example, you will
find all the children who are paying a certain fee, and if you add them together
and take the accommodation, you may get an idea of what the vacancies are, but
it does not state it specifically.
188. For instance, can you tell us at all the number of vacancies in the City
of London :
Not from this book at all.
189. But have you any means of giving us that information
The best way of arriving at that is our bye-law report, which gives the ac-
commodation every quarter and the average attendance for the quarter. I
ought to say that our bye-law report of Christmas last gave us the returns from
93 per cent. of the schools.; that is very nearly the sum total. In Westminster
the accommodation was 23,559, that is in efficient schools; the average for the
quarter was 15,929, leaving a difference of 7,630 odd.
190. Can you give us the same information with reference to the Tower
Hamlets 2
There the total accommodation in round numbers is 45,000, the average attend-
ance 30,000, being a difference of 15,000. In Southwark the total accommodation
was 18,900, the average attendance 14,322, leaving a difference of 4,600; that is
a better case than the others, because you see the vacancies are under 33 per cent.
there. In Marylebone the total accommodation was 45,004 and the average at-
tendance 30,039; there again it is under 33 per cent., leaving 15,000. In Lambeth
the total accommodation was 49,700 and the average attendance 33,600, leaving
a difference of 16,000. In Hackney the total accommodation was 28,000 and the
average attendance 20,000, leaving 8,000 vacancies; that again is under the
33 per cent. In Greenwich the total accommodation was 26,000 and the
average attendance 17,600, leaving 9,000. In Finsbury the total accommoda-
tion was 37,200 and the average attendance 24,700, leaving a difference of
about 12,000. In Chelsea the total accommodation was 20,700 and the average
attendance 13,900, being a difference of 6,800. Then in the City the total
accommodation was 9,279 and the average attendance 6,303, leaving a difference
of close upon 3,000.
191. Will you be good enough to add up the result 7
The total accommodation last Christmas in these efficient schools was
304,155, and the average attendance was 207,214, the vacancies being rather
under 97,000 ; so that the vacancies are not 33 per cent. on the whole, and it
gradually improves as we go on.
192. But it appears from that, as a matter of fact, that at this moment there
are 96,400 average vacancies in the schools :
Paper vacancies.
193. They are real vacancies:
Unavailable vacancies, if I may correct the first phrase.
194. If we were to go into the schools of the metropolis to-day, we should
find 96,400 places vacant?
I hope we should find a little less number to-day, but it would approximate
to that.
195. Then with regard to the cost of the schools which have been provided
by the Board, can you tell us what the average cost of the sites has been P
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
(119.) D 2 I do
28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFoRE SELECT COMMITTEE. ON
Mr. G. H. Croad.
*
19th May 1873.
*-- g
f
I do not know that that has ever been calculated; I cannot say, on the
average, what the sites have cost. The fact is, in reference to sites, the question
is rather a difficult one, because we are in the middle of purchasing. There are
some sites which we have actually purchased, of which we could give you the
total cost.
196. Would 2,000 l. be above or below the mark, on the average 7
I should think below.
197. Would 3,000 l. be nearer the mark P
I think, on the average, it would be nearer; but I must guard myself against
saying that authoritatively.
198. In some localities you get the site for very much less and in some you
pay a much higher price?
Yes; of course in the densely populated parts land is very dear and difficult
to be got at.
199. Can you give the average cost of building 2
I know that, as a general rule, the schools work out at Something less than
8 l. a head building; some are as low as 6 l., but, on the average, perhaps they
may be taken from 7 l. to 7 l. 10 s. a head.
200. In this Bill how many sites are scheduled 2
I think 62; those are not all new sites; many of them are merely outstanding
interests where we have already got the land and have begun building. Some
of them are cases of schools transferred to us where we have got long leases
and merely wish to make the property freehold. There are only about 20, I
think, of those sites that are absolutely new.
201. Those that you purchase by agreement do not appear in the Bill, do
they P
They may for certain outstanding interests.
202. Chairman.] The effect of this Bill is to turn them all into free-
hold 2
That is the object as far as those are concerned.
203. Earl Beauchamp.] For nearly 100,000 children, you take the cost of
the building at 8 l. per head
I should think, on the average, it would be something nearer 7 l. 10 s.
204. That is the cost of the building, not of the site :
Yes. We estimate roughly, on the whole, that the cost of the site and build-
ing together will be 10 l. per head, or perhaps a trifle over that; so that for
100,000 children the cost would be, say, from 1,000,000 l. to 1,100,000 l. ; and
that the charge upon the ratepayers would be just a fraction over a halfpenny
in the pound per annum for the next 50 years.
205. The ratepayers are quite satisfied with the expenditure, are they :
I should say that, on the whole, they are not discontented.
206. Do you think that they are aware of the expenditure which is contem-
plated :
We have taken very good pains, as far as all those who have memorialised us
are concerned, to let them know how the matter stands. Out of the great
number of sites proposed to be taken, we have not heard of opposition in more
than seven or eight.
207. Of course the ratepayers are under the impression that the business
transacted by the Board has been carefully sifted
I cannot say what the ratepayers think on the whole, but I think our mem-
bers are not afraid to meet their constituents again.
208. With reference to the history of the Report to the Education Depart-
ment, when was that prepared
It took a year in preparation.
209. Who prepared it
It was prepared by a Statistical Committee, consisting of about 16 members.
210. And.
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 29
21 O. And when was it presented to the Board 2
I think on the last working Wednesday before Easter of last year; I forget
whether there was a Wednesday on which we did not sit, but we were anxious
to get in the Report before Easter.
211. How much time did the Board devote to siſting the accuracy of the
'Report 2 -
The Board as a Board took the Report on the faith of the Statistical Com-
mittee.
212. They gave no attention then to the Report or Appendix P
No, not as a Board, before it was sent to the Department.
213. Had all the members of the Board notice that this Report would be
presented :
They had notice of it in the paper of business which, however, I believe,
merely reached them 12 hours before the business came on.
214. The members of the School Board who did not know that this Report
was about to be presented had no opportunity of discussing it; for instance,
those who were out of town 2
If there was any member who did not receive his paper of business, or was
out of town, he would not, of course, be able to criticise it. -
215. Even supposing he had been in town he had really no time between
Tuesday night, and the early hour at which the Board met on Wednesday
morning, for examining that mass of figures which that Report and Appendix
involves?
He could not have done so. The Statistical Committee having worked hard
at it, the Board took the Report as made by the Statistical Committee.
216. Have any discussions taken place at the Board with regard to the
Report?
There have been repeated conversations as to the principles on which the
Report was constructed, and three or four debates on the subject, but the great
majority of the Board, after discussions, have adopted the principles of the
Report.
217. Having adopted them before at their Board meeting 2
Yes.
218. The Chairman of the Board, I believe, was not present on that occa-
sion º
I think Lord Lawrence was away owing to ill-health at the time.
219. Lord Lawrence.] Fvery member who was present in London had an
ample opportunity of coming to the Board on the day on which the Report
was passed, and saying, “I have not had time to look into this Report; I have
doubts and hesitations on this and that subject, and I request that the passing
of the Report may be suspended "?
That is so.
220. Was there any one member who was present in London, who made
any demur whatever to the Report 2
I believe Mr. Hepworth Dixon objected to the Report being taken, but the
Board decided that it should be sent up to the Department at once.
221. Earl Beauchamp.] Do you know any parallel case where an expenditure
nvolving more than a million of money, for which a Board was responsible,
has been adopted upon the faith of a report presented by a committee, unsifted,
and in fact dealt with in such a way as that any independent member of
the Board, who was not a member of the Statistical Committee, had
no opportunity of criticizing it until it had been solemnly adopted by the
Board 2
I do not know of any parallel case, but the conclusions of our report were
very much below the theory that generally prevailed in the country. The
London Diocesan Board of Education, who had looked into the matter
thoroughly in the year 1866, drew up and presented a report to the Bishop of
London, in which there was a calculation that the total number of Schools
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
*** mºm?ºmºſºma
(119.) D 3 required
30 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT comm ITTEE on
... Mr. G. H. Croad, required in London, was from 160,000 to 200,000 in the diocese of London,
19th May 1873, exclusive of those parts of the Metropolis which lie within the diocese of Win–
— chester.
222. The Report of the School Board produced so startling a discovery
with regard to the calculations of the London Diocesan Education Board;
was there not some reason why the information obtained by the School Board,
should itself be subject to very careful consideration? -
There was always time of course, if we had under-estimated the quantity to
go to the Department for further authority. We thought, considering
what was necessary, that the report might be passed as it came from the
Statistical Committee, and that any further requirements might come
afterwards.
223. Supposing it should turn out that the report of the Statistical Com-
mittee was in excess of the requirements of the metropolis; you were pledged
by the School Board to an expenditure larger, and in excess of what was
required, because schools which are in existence cannot be unbuilt :
If that was the case.
224. Schools not existing and which are required can always be built 2
Yes. +
225. Lord Kesteven.] You have stated that the expenditure of 1,100,000 l.,
which would cause a rate of # d. in the pound upon the metropolis, will be
sufficient for the next 50 years; has it not entered into your calculation that in
the next 50 years the population will be greatly increased ?
Of course when I speak of ; d. in the pound, I refer to the schools for 100,600
children. It may be necessary with the increase of population to build six
schools a year.
226. Are you aware what the annual average increase of population in the
metropolis is ?
I believe the increase is 60,000 a year.
227. In a space of 50 years there will be an excess of two millions and
upwards, over the present time !
Of course there will be a very large increase; but year by year it will only
be something like school provision for 6,000 or 8,000 additional children which
will be required. -
228. So that your power of rating will be augmented 2
Very slowly; it must be borne in mind that in building for 100,000 children
we are making up for the arrears of two centuries.
229. Still, the rate of ; d. in the pound will not cover it all 2
But the fraction will be very infinitesimal, which will have to be added
to the # d. in the pound; supposing we have to build, the re-payment of the
additional sum expended will have to be spread over a good many years.
230. Lord Lawrence.] Is it not the case that, when that Report to which
Earl Beauchamp has alluded was passed by the Board, you believed it was the
opinion of every member of the Board who had specially given his attention to
the subject, that it was perfectly safe to send up that Report, inasmuch as we
were well below what in all probability would be required in the shape of
education under the Act: --
Yes, that is so.
231. Can you tell from your returns whether Canon Cromwell was at that
time in London 7 -
I know that Canon Cromwell happened not to be able to attend the com-
mittee that afternoon, and, therefore, he had no means of opposing it; I find
by the minute book that there were 30 members present at the meeting when
that Report was sent up.
232. Duke of Cleveland.] How many members are there on the Board :
Forty-nine. - -
233. Then there were 19 absent P
Yes. -
234. Earl
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. .31
234. Earl Beauchamp.] Are you sure that the whole of the 30 to whom you
have alluded were present at the discussion on the subject, because I have
observed in the Board Minutes very great discrepancies between the number
of those present at a division and the number of those present in the course of
the davf * w
Th . might be a discrepancy. But it is perfectly obvious that if these 30 were
present, there was no business on the paper to which they objected, which could be
taken against their consent. The Statistical Committee sat for a year; they used
to sit day after day; they were in constant communication with members repre-
senting the ten divisions throughout London. It is not simply those that were
present, but all the members of the Board are more or less responsible, because
they were constantly called in to consultation. It is a point which may not be
known to your Lordships; but we always consulted the members representing
the different divisions, and when all the principles were settled, after repeated
discussions the report was written, was sent round in proof, and fully criticised
by the members of the Statistical Committee.
235. But not by the members of the Board :
No. e
236. Lord Lawrence.] You have adverted to the Report of the London
Diocesan Board of Education in 1866; do you recollect an extract to the
following effect: “Few schools are really filled. The fact does not disprove the
necessity of erecting new schools, any more than the emptiness of a church
proves that no churches are required elsewhere "?
I remember that extract. It is a perfectly just one. We find, as a fact, that
if we open a school in the neighbourhood of another school, that it has a very
good influence upon both. It is supposed that we are damaging existing schools
by our action, but this is what we find to be the case: when we got our first
complete returns last Christmas, there was an increase in average attendance
throughout the metropolis of 36,000; not 36,000 simply added to the rolls, but
36,000 in average attendance. The great bulk of that was in the voluntary
schools. It was only 10,000 in the new schools which the Board had opened,
and between 1,100 and 1,200 in schools transferred to them. All the remainder
was in other schools, which we are supposed to be damaging.
237. Do you recollect this extract from the same Report: “There ought to
be one '' (that is, one child) “in six at school’’;
I remember that, statement.
238. There is another extract : “There seems to be no reason to suppose it
to be an exaggerated statement that the means of education require to be
provided at this moment in the diocese of London, 150,000 to 200,000 children”?
I remember that passage.
239. Do you remember this extract also, “ Allowing for private benevolence
or private interest, and for the admirable exertions of other religious committees,
a remainder of something like 150,000 demand at this moment the care of the
Church of England to supply them with the means of education ”?
I remember that, my Lord.
240. Do you also recollect the statistical report of the Committee of the
Bishop of London’s Fund 2 -
Yes.
241. In that report it was said that room for 130,000 more children ought
to be found in these schools; do you recollect that :
Yes, my Lord.
242. Then there is one more extract from the report last-mentioned to which
I wish to draw attention ; “School accommodation for 4,000 more children
should be provided every year;” do you recollect that ?
Yes, I thought it was rather more they calculated, but I presume that is
COrrect.
243. Earl Beauchamp.] Are we to take it that the London School Board
have been guided in their action by the opinion of the London Diocesan Board
and the Committee of the Bishop of London's Fund 2
Certainly not. We have been guided simply by a desire to get at the real facts
of the case.
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
(119.) D 4 244. Lord
32 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
- Mr. G. H. Croad 244. Lord Lawrence.] Does your experience give you an opportunity of
19th May 1873.
knowing for what portion of the population voluntary bodies have been in the
habit of building schools?
If you mean, given a particular district, for how many of the population
school places are provided, I understand that it has been one-sixth, that is to
say, that where they have wanted to provide additional education they have said
such is our population, one-sixth is so and so, the balance between this and the
existing School accommodation is what we want to build schools for. That was
during the time when building grants were made to the different denominational
schools.
245. Assuming that the returns provided under the authority of the London
School Board are challenged, are you prepared to show the trustworthiness of
these returns made by the enumerators ?
I have not the least hesitation in Saying that if any question arises about the
figures in any particular district, we shall be quite ready to submit them to any
expert, who may go into them as far as he thinks fit.
246. In your judgment have the voluntary schools been, as a whole, injured
by the action of the Board P
The statement that I made a few minutes ago would be the best answer to
that, namely, that the average attendance in voluntary schools has very much
increased during the last two years; certainly the average increased attendance
is 24,000 in voluntary schools alone.
247. Lord Bishop of Winchester.] I wish to ask you for a little more
information as to what you stated in your evidence at page 4, “We therefore
break up London into a series of subdivisions.” What principles guided you
as to making the districts 2
The idea was that the subdivisions should be, roughly, subdivisions which
should contain a population of about 10,000, that they should be compact
districts, and that the boundaries should be such boundaries as the children
would not naturally cross, or that they would find some difficulty in crossing.
248. They were purely arbitrary -
Purely arbitrary, except that they were compact, and had a certain theory as
to the amount of the population in them.
249. Will you tell me whether, in drawing those districts originally, you at
all took into account the existing schools?
That came afterwards; the districts having been formed we then analysed
the population and the schools of the district.
250. You will see I am sure, from your practical knowledge, that the point
I am anxious to inquire about is this: you might so draw an arbitrary district
that it would become necessary to fulfil your general principle to make your
new school very near an old school, or you might so draw your districts that
you would naturally not place your new schools near existing schools, but at a
distance from them. I want to know whether that entered at all into the
calculation ?
As far as I know, these divisions were created under the direction of the
members representing the division, who were supposed to have local knowledge.
We did not consider at the time anything beyond those points I have enumerated.
It was an after-consideration, what was the population and what were the
schools.
251. Therefore, in point of fact, the districts, as originally framed, had no
reference, in your idea, to the school provision already voluntarily made in
them 2
No.
252. You stated just now, that when you were accounting for the deficiency
in the attendance you hoped to get up the attendance 3 o
Yes, my Lord,
253. May I ask you on what you rely for getting up the attendances when
you indulge in that hope 7
The bye-laws, and the powers given to us under the 74th section of the
Act.
254. You
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER conPIRMATION BILL, 33
254. You mean compulsion ?
I do, my Lord.
255. You look forward to the result of compulsion in getting up the attend-
ances 2
I do, my Lord.
256. That you say, having reference to the particular character and classes,
and the state of the children whom you hoped to compel, namely, the waifs
and strays of London 2
We hoped to make the attendance better for all the class under the nine-
penny line.
257. But you will have specially, as to compulsion, I presume, to deal with
those who the least now value education ?
Those will be the great part of our care; but undoubtedly the School Board
are bound to look after every child who attends a school below 9 d., to see that
he attends 25 hours, at least, in the week.
258. Do you form your hope of the effect of compulsion from a general
principle, or from your present experience of its effect?
When this Report was written the bye-laws were not yet in operation, and,
therefore, we had no practical experience.
259. I am referring to your evidence when you stated that you hoped to get
up the attendances, when you further explained that that was the theory of
your expectation of what would come from compulsion; I then ask you whether
your present opinion of what compulsion would produce comes from your
experience and its result up to this time?
Our experience up to the present time is, I think, to show that with the
agency of our bye-laws we shall, undoubtedly, not only drive children into school,
but also increase the average attendances.
260. You say that from your experience of what compulsion has done
From the experience of compulsion, so far as it has been exercised, and
taking into consideration the fact that we have not yet brought the full force
of our bye-laws to bear.
26 i. Do you know whether that is the general impression of the members of
the School Board 2
I cannot say, my Lord, whether that is the general impression ; that is the
impression I derive from watching the figures quarter by quarter as they
corne in. -
262. Have you ever at all endeavoured to estimate what each compelled child,
So to speak, in virtue of compulsion, costs the Board ; that is to say, how much
per head it costs you to compel the children to come 7
I have not attempted to form an estimate of that, for the very simple reason
that we have no statistics on one part of the subject which forms an important
element; large numbers of children are drawn into schools by the fact that they
know the bye-laws have been sanctioned by the Queen, and are being put in
force. That is an element of which we have not got any means of ascertaining
the exact numerical amount ; therefore, until that be ascertained, I am not able
to give a correct estimate of the cost.
263. To adopt a formula, with which you are no doubt familiar, should you
be much surprised if you were told that a very leading member of the Board
considered compulsion hitherto an absolute failure, and that each child forced
into school had cost the rateyayers at least I l., in the process of forcing'
Whether I should be surprised or not depends upon who is the member who
states that.
264. You would not yourself be prepared to acquiesce in such a view 2
No, certainly not.
265. On either side you do not think it has been a failure, and you do not
think it has been so costly 2 º
I certainly think it has not been a failure hitherto ; and as to the cost, I
have not gone into the question, as I consider that we have the materials
necessary to make the calculation. *
Mr. G. H. Croad. .
*m.
19th May 1873.
(119.) E 206. Lord
34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
r |
266. Lord Lawrence.] Assuming, for the sake of argument, that it had cost
the School Board l l per head to force children into schools, would it not be a
fallacious argument to assume that, therefore, all the children who were forced
into school indirectly would cost anything like that?
I think that is a fallacious argument.
267. I mean that for one child, whom the School Board are compelled to
bring before a magistrate, the example which is given to the neighbourhood
drives 10, 15, or 20, children into the schools 2
That is quite my idea, and I believe that to be so.
268. Lord Bishop of Winchester.] I dare say you are acquainted with the
statement which was laid before the Statistical Committee of the School Board
of 12th December 1872, by a deputation appointed by a general meeting of
managers of various voluntary schools in the parishes of Shoreditch, Bethnal
Green, Spitalfields, and St. Luke's - w
Yes, my Lord ; I may state that I only knew just now that the paper had
been circulated this morning; I have not read it since it was printed in De-
cember last, so I do not remember exactly what the points are.
269. As you have it before you, I will call your attention to one or two points
which I wish you to explain to me. There is this statement in the paragraph
headed 1. “The Board procured a return from 30 of the largest schools in
London, giving the absence day by day for a whole week, and assigning to each
absence its proper cause ; the result shows that, on the average, about 5:09 of
the number on the rolls were absent day by day " ?
I should doubt whether that is a correct quotation from the Report (after
referring to the Report); I see the point of the sentence is left out, for I find this,
“The result shows that, on the average, about 5:09 of the number on the rolls
were absent day by day owing to these temporary causes,” which the gentle-
men who printed this paper have kindly omitted.
270. Do you mean that those were temporary causes, and that other causes
would have swelled up the absent? -
Yes; the total was 17 per cent., of which a portion we consider we have
already taken into account, leaving this for temporary causes.
27 l. The error, whatever the error may have been, does not touch the
point, that is to say, that the mode of estimating the averages day by day of
the absences give an unfair idea of the real number of absences; and the argu-
ment given was, that in the voluntary schools if the children for any temporary
cause were absent, say on the two first days of the week, the parents did not
send them throughout the week, because of the payment which they would
have to make, and, therefore, in all such returns you must take, not the day by
day, but the three weeks average, as was the case in the corrected school roll;
and, therefore, the return which was got of the day by day absences was alto-
gether a mistaken return as to the real number of absences ! -
I have no hesitation in saying that if we had had a little more time, a return
for three weeks would be better than a return for one week. We had not got
much time at the moment, and therefore we asked them to do it for one week.
We would gladly have taken more if there had been time.
272. My question is not as to your motive, but whether the fact of so taking
it did injure the accuracy of the return as here stated
I can only say that I think a return for a longer period would probably have
been more accurate, but I do not think there is any substantial error.
273. Will you look at column 2. You will observe that the conclusion which
is drawn by these gentlemen in column 2 is, that a careful examination of your
figures would show that there was a difference between the rates of the attend-
ance, not a 5 per cent, as stated, but 243 per cent. ; is there any answer to
that 2 * -
We have always considered that the gentlemen who have brought for-
ward this statement have not sufficiently realised the fact that we take our
absences in two categories; that we had already from that 24; per cent. dis-
counted a considerable amount for those several deductions which I enumerated
the other day, and 5 per cent, is for the residuum, that is, for purely temporary
Ca,UlS62S, -
274. Then
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL, 35
274. Then in column 3 ; “The School Board allowed, in a different calcula-
tion for its own use, the difference to be not 5 per cent., but 26% "; is there any.
way for accounting for the different working out of the principle on the two
occasions P -
The way of accounting for it is this, that constantly on the rolls of the schools
you have children who are very irregular in their attendance. If you take the
whole number of children upon the roll of a school not properly sifted, contain-
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
ing children who have been ill for more than three weeks, half timers, children
in the country, &c., of course a much larger per-centage will have to be taken;
but when it has been sifted, then, for temporary causes, 5 per cent. will do.
275. I see in the Times newspaper of Friday, 16th May 1873, a Report of
the School Management Committee of the London School Board gives a set of
tabulated returns from the forthcoming volume of their quarterly report. I
should like you to explain this statement if you will kindly do so. “The Board
has already school accommodation for 33,688 children. These schools have on
their books 35,766 children. The highest attendance upon any one day was
28,711 children. The average attendance was 22,145 children. So that upon
the exceptionally high day the absences were at 20 per cent., while upon the
average they were 38 per cent. These schools were chiefly in hired buildings.
The Board having assumed that educational destitution in these places was so
very great, that they could not wait to build new schools, began at once in
some of these places. They have tried with the utmost diligence the power of
compulsion, and yet if we suppose they have swept into schools every child who
ought to be there, we find 38 per cent. absent instead of 5, reducing thereby
very greatly, of course, the necessity of building for the larger number, when
only the smaller number under the power of compulsion are found there.” I
should like any light which you can throw upon that. That bears upon the
one, and really as it seems to me the most important, question, which is, whether
we are or not encouraging a very exaggerated scale of provisions under the
School Board. You will see at once the effect of the argument namely, that
if only 38 per cent. are attending those schools, there can be moching that will
justify the building for the larger number which is calculated upon the 5 per
cent. 2
I must state in explanation of that, that first of all the children whom we get
into our schools are of the very roughest description, and therefore it will
be some time before we can get proper habits of punctuality instilled into
them ; I may say that upon the rolls of our school, I have no doubt there are
a very great number of children who are irregular in their attendance, who
ought to be weeded out as a rule. We have recently given instructions to our
teachers at the end of every three weeks to revise the roll, and strike off those
children who have been absent more than three weeks. The code for the
regulation of the teachers was only adopted a short time ago, and would not
have had any effect upon the teachers during the quarter ending at Lady-day
to which those figures refer. One element is the fact, that the rolls are now
properly looked after; and secondly, that our children are of the very roughest
description. j
276. It is the fact that they are of the roughest description, which makes the
question so important, because you remember, I dare say, the words of the
statement. “The School Board has now to deal with tens of thousands of
children, many of whom are the waifs and strays of the London streets. The
above returns are of that part of the population which cares for the education
of their children. If, then, these show so large a per-centage of temporary
absences, is it not highly probable that when the Board comes to deal with a
class bad to catch, and slippery to hold, a class not used to home discipline,
not caring about education, poor, and of most irregular habits, that the propor-
tion of temporary absences will not be less than it is with the more intelligent
and orderly working classes.” That being the condition of the people with whom
you have to deal, does it not make it very probable that this 38 per cent. of
absence, instead of being anything exceptional, is likely to be real even under
the application of compulsion ; and if that is the case, does it show that a
building for the 5 per cent, of absence will probably be found due already to
the 38 per cent., by spending the ratepayers' money very much more largely
than is necessary 2
(119.) E 2 * It
36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. G. H. Croad.
ſºmº
• 19th May 1873.
It does not present itself in that way to my mind. It seems to me that in
reference to the children who are now in ragged schools where there is hardly
any discipline, if you find the average attendance is a certain figure, you may
reasonably expect as soon as you bring the influence of order to bear on those
children, that the irregularity will be very much diminished, and that you have
now got the thing at its worst, and that there will be a constant improvement.
The 5 per cent. for temporary causes is not the sum total ; we are perfectly
aware that it is above 5 per cent. if you take all causes, but 5 per cent. is the
mere residuum after the other causes have been deducted.
277. Has the attention of the Board been called to the exceedingly shifting
character of the part of London with which I am best acquainted, namely, that
on the Surrey side of the water. Many clergymen have told me that although
there are a few residents, still, as a rule, the population changes every six
months, and that no sooner have they got hold of them than they have gone to
some other place or district; has that been considered, in estimating how many
to provide school accommodation for ?
I should say that the statement that the bulk of the population changes every
six months, is, if I may venture to say so, an extremely wild statement.
278. I do not mean to say that that is the case with the whole of London,
but there are populous districts on the southern side of the river, with respect
to which it is anything but a wild statement? $
Visitors have the means of watching the population, and I gather from their
experience that though in some respects there may be a fluctuating population,
yet generally speaking they go out of town for a short time, and come back again,
or they move into neighbouring districts; but the number which disappear
altogether is, I take it, a very small proportion. I can quote the case of St.
George's-in-the-East for example; owing to a rise in the rates a large number
moved out of that parish recently into the adjoining parish or district of
Mile End Old Town.
279. What would be the effect of the compulsory clause where a man goes
into a new district with his children in a comparatively short space of time P
We are taking means to provide for cases of that sort; we intend, as much
as possible, to allow children to have certificates showing their attendance in a
particular school. They will be encouraged to take those certificates with them
when they go into another district. We shall endeavour to keep up the com-
munication between the schools. The child will be followed when he goes to
his new school, the attendance paper will be produced, and a record kept
continuously.
28o. Have you any other evidence to prove that the planting a Board school
by the side of a voluntary school does great good to the voluntary school,
except the fact that you stated of the two numbers?
I think we can ask a member of our Board, Mr. Currie, one of the members
for the Tower Hamlets, to appear before your Lordships. He is a gentleman
who has taken a great deal of interest in voluntary schools for many years past;
he will be able to testify to your Lordships that placing schools side by side they
mutually encourage each other, and that there has been an interchange of teachers
to the mutual advantage of both. We might also request the Rev. Llewellyn
Davies to attend before your Lordships; he is a clergyman of the Church of
England, and a member of the Board, who has schools of his own in Marylebone
side by side with schools of the Board, and he will be able to state that both have
benefited. It is like putting a second church by the side of an empty church;
there is an emulation between the two which is beneficial to both.
281. Lord Lawrence.] Assuming there is a certain amount of migration
from one district, would not the population which comes in as the other goes
out to a considerable extent balance the loss P
I should say, on the whole, that it would, and that the population of a given
district would be much about the same, taking the year all round; those who,
like the children in Southwark, disappear into Kent in the hopping season,
come back again in two or three weeks.
282. Allusion has been made to a certain amount of dissatisfaction which is
supposed to exist in Shoreditch, and other adjacent districts, with reference to
the action of the Board; is it not the case that a public meeting of ratepayers
WaS
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 37
was called by the vestry of Shoreditch, and that all the members of the Board
attended, but not one of the requisitionists was present, and that a vote of con-
fidence in the Board was passed at that meeting by a majority of something like
nine to one *
That is not within my personal knowledge; I have heard that mentioned,
but I never saw any report of the proceedings. Mr. Charles Reed, our Vice
Chairman, would no doubt be cognisant of the facts, and might be called on
that point.
283. As regards what has been said about a rate of , d. in the pound, re-
presenting the 1,000,000l. which we intend to expend on schools, is it not
the case that that ºd, in the pound will pay the principal and interest in 50
years:
It will pay both.
284. Duke of Cleveland.] May I ask you with regard to what are called the
waifs and strays of the population, particularly on the south side ; is there any
proportion of that population which migrates elsewhere than into the adjacent
districts of London for any length of time?
I am only speaking of my general impression from what I hear. I should
not think there is a large proportion.
285. You do not think that any large proportion of that population migrates
into the manufacturing or northern districts of England 2
I think not.
286. Therefore it merely migrates into some part of the country in the neigh-
bourhood of London, or it makes a temporary absence in Sussex and Kent for
hop-picking purposes, or purposes of that sort 2
That appears to be precisely the case.
287. Earl of Harrowby.] But there is a great change of residence among the
poorer classes of London, is there not
There is a certain amount of change, but I think it has been very much over-
estimated.
288. Lord Kesteven.] If there were a migration of a given number of families,
so creating a vacuum, would not that vacuum be filled up by other families.
partly consisting of children requiring education?
I take it that the number of the population is pretty stable in any district.
289. You think that the numbers will not fluctuate, although the objects
will fluctuate 7
Quite so.
290. Lord Bishop of Winchester.] You will have to compel a new set of
people to send their children to school; and you would have to do that if the
parents were unwilling parents, both in the district into which they have mi-
grated, and with the population who had supplied the deficiency caused by the
migration ?
Supposing our compulsion to be universal, let us say that A. in Mile End
goes to Poplar, he will already have been subjected to compulsion; and suppose
B., who was at Poplar, goes to Mile End, he will also have been subjected to
compulsion. The thing would not have to be done from the beginning over
and over again.
291. Supposing A. has withdrawn from the school, and you find that the
family of A. have gone away, and thereby you have lost your hold upon A., and
A. comes into Lambeth, the fact that you compelled him to come to school at
Mile End would not compel him in Lambeth, and you must go through a new
process of compulsion. There must be a perpetual repetition of the compulsory
machinery, must there not *
Yes, that must be admitted to some extent; but I go upon the theory that,
if a child has been compelled to go to school for six months in one district, it
will produce a sort of influence upon his attending school in another district.
It is the fact that children take a liking for school, where they learn habits of
order, and they carry those habits of order home, and, to some extent, in-
doctrinate their parents.
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
(119.) E 3 292. Earl
º -
... <
*
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN Before SELECT comm ITTEE ON
292. Earl of Harrowby..] Are not parents now generally looking upon the
attendance of children at school as a necessity
That is so.
293. Lord £awrence.] Will there not be a moral influence exercised on the
parent in this way, that the man who objected in the first instance to send his
children to school, seeing the benefit of instruction, will come to approve of that
of which he formerly disapproved 2 -
I think that is extremely likely to be the case, and that our task will be
easier and easier as we go along. -
294. Some doubt has been thrown upon the action of the Board in dealing
with what they consider the deficiency of the education of the metropolis; I
should like to ask you a few questions upon that subject, though to a certain
extent it is a repetition of what you have said before; what is the number of
children in London between 3 and 13 years of age, according to your sta-
tistics 2
Six hundred and eighty-one thousand one hundred and one.
295. Deducting children above nine pence, and in institutions, what is the
number?
We arrive at 574,693.
296. For these 574,693 children, what efficient provision exists?
According to the Blue Book, the existing and projected accommodation is
350,920; but, as I ventured to point out to your Lordships, that contains a
great number of schools which can no longer be recognized as efficient. It
also contains a certain amount of projected schools, which have not been
brought into existence, and which, in fact, have not been built.
297. But leaving out of consideration the inefficient schools, what will be the
provision -
It will be reduced to something less than 330,000. As far as inefficient
schools are concerned, there will be no further reduction beyond the figures
which now give the present state of affairs; they present figures which give
the existing accommodation in efficient schools, exclusive of Board schools in
temporary buildings, as 308,696.
298. That would leave a balance of 265,997, would it not
It would leave a balance of that number of children who are wholly unpro-
vided for. -
299. Then, again, we propose, according to your statement, to build eventu-
ally up to 100,600 : -
Yes.
300. That would leave a balance of 165,397, would it not :
It would leave that number entirely unprovided for.
3ol. To meet any error of calculation ?
Yes.
302. Lord Kesteven.] Does that include children between three and five
years old
It includes those.
303. Lord Bishop of Winchester.] On the question of compulsion, I observe
that in this return which has been put into our hands, taking blocks H., I., and
F., which includes Lambeth, the total attendance is 3,019 in the quarter ending
December 1872, and that sunk to 2,985 in the following quarter. I do not
wish to enter now into the particular question, but merely to ask on the general
question, whether there is anything that throws light upon the apparent
failure of compulsion in that respect 2
That is a falling off of 34 children on the whole in the average attendance.
The reason is that there must be fluctuating periods, comparing autumn and
winter, for example. It so happens that the quarter ended at Lady-day was an
extremely wet quarter. The consequence was that the children were kept at
home by their parents, in consequence of the weather, or such temporary causes
as that. Considering that it only produces a temporary diminution of 34
children on the whole, it is not a very large amount. *
A question
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 39
A question was put to me at the beginning of my examination to-day, with
reference to the principle on which we proceeded. I have before me the reso-
lution of the Board, which defined how the Committee were to go about their
duty. It says, “That the Statistical Committee be instructed to divide London
into school districts containing a population of not less than 5,000 and not more
than 10,000. And in recommending any district to this Board for the esta-
blishment of a school, they shall take into consideration not only the social and
religious condition and existing school accommodation of that district, but also
of the districts immediately adjoining, unless they are separated from it by an
impassable barrier or a dangerous thoroughfare.”
304, Chairman.] After that report had been presented by the Statistical
Committee, and received by the Board at their subsequent meetings, was the
accuracy of any part of the Report questioned by any member of the Board?
Yes. But the chief points which have been referred to in my examination
to-day, have been accepted in the discussions of the Board. The Board, with
the exception of one member, have not thought that those objections were valid.
305. Lord Lawrence.] Is it the case that the compulsory clauses have not
been put in force in these particular subdivisions, to which the Bishop of
Winchester alluded, during the last quarter
I am not aware of any difference between this and the other divisions. I
suppose that the visitors are at work there as elsewhere.
306. I understood that for some reason or other they had been in abeyance 2
The superintending visitor for the Lambeth division informs me that no
summonses had been issued in that particular part of Lambeth in the quarter
ended at Christmas, 1872.
307. Lord Bishop of JWinchester.] Have there been any in the last quarter
Yes.
308. Then that makes my question still more pertinent, if you observe that
the number was greater when there was not compulsion than it was in the
succeeding quarter with compulsion
That is so, my Lord. I am afraid we have nothing to say against it, except
that the weather was wet. I beg leave now to hand in an abstract of
Appendices 1 and 3. -
309. Chairman.] State to the Committee the nature of the returns you
have just put in r
They have reference to Subdivisions H., I., and F., of Lambeth, which con-
tain the Albion Cottage site, one of those set out in the Schedule to the Bill.
These appendices show how we apply our general principles to this particular
case, and how the result works out, and we will presently endeavour to ex-
plain anything that may require explanation. In our original Blue Book we
take H. and I. together, and as I shall show your Lordships presently, we show
a deficiency there. In Block F. there was an excess of 14; but if you go further
in any direction, it will be seen that there is a deficiency in every case.
There are deficiencies in D. and E. There are deficiencies in G. and J. toge-
ther ; and also in K. So that in no case if we go further shall we make the
matter stronger against the Board. We did not know at that time that the
two blocks H. and I, are exactly conterminous with the two ecclesiastical dis-
tricts of St. Mary the Less, Lambeth, and St. Peter's, Upper Kennington Lane.
There is, however, a peculiarity which I shall have to call your Lordships'
attention to presently. The parochial church of St. Mary the Less is just out-
side the district, and it has on either side of it a girls’ and infants' schools. If
we go beyond H. and I., and take the remaining schools over the border,
we must also take the population. Starting then with H. and I., we find,
according to Appendix I., that there were 4,957 children between 3 and 13
years of age. We find that the number of children in schools above the nine-
penny line was only 113. According to the ordinary theory, the number ought
to be one-seventh. The contention on the part of the Board is, that in point of
fact, the only children who attend the upper and middle classes of schools lie
on the fringe of the southern boundary H. and I. Deducting the children of
the upper and middle classes, we arrive at a total number of children requiring
elementary schools 4,844. Making the eight deductions, we arrive at this con-
clusion, that the 4,844 children who require elementary education will be re-
Mr. G. H. Croad.
*-*.
19th May 1873.
(119.) E 4 duced
* 40 MINUTES • OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFoRE SELECT committee on
Mr. G. H. Croad, duced to 3,930. The existing and projected school accommodation at the time
was 2,752. The difference therefore between the school accommodation re-
quired, and the existing and projected accommodation, was 1,178. On that
we proposed to build for 1,000 children. But we must now explain to your
Lordships, that when we obtained these figures, we dealt only in gross numbers.
We had got the accommodation of schools by means of school rooms and class
rooms. We had not got how the boys and girls and infants were accommodated
in them. We did not know the respective proportions between boys', girls',
and infants’ accommodation. In order to make our knowledge more complete,
we obtained fresh returns. º -
19th May 1873.
* wºº
31 o. Duke of Cleveland.] That is the existing accommodation and the pro-
jected accommodation? º
Yes. We took the opportunity, at the same time, to correct our accommoda-
tion of the schools, but, as far as the accommodation of the schools is con-
cerned, there is no practical difference. In the first instance, in our Blue Book,
we had been dealing only with gross numbers. These new figures enabled us to
get at the following conclusion. If you refer to page 73 of the new Report of
the Statistical Committee, if you take H. and I. together, you will find that the
total deficiency is 664, plus 498, that is, that it is 1,162 instead of having been,
as it was in our first Book, 1,178. If you analyse the total deficiency of 1,162,
it appears that there is an excess of 12 places for boys, 5 and 7 added together;
then there is a deficiency of 145, plus 175, that is of 320 for girls and a defi-
ciency of 524, plus 330, which is 854 for infants. What was the Board to do
upon those new figures? They came to the conclusion that it would be desirable
to build, for 100 boys, 100 girls, and 300 infants, and their reason, was this. Going
upon the first Blue Book where they only had gross numbers, they had opened
a school in Miller's-lane, which has now got an average attendance of 173 boys.
It seemed to the Board undesirable that the children should be altogether
scattered. If they had to start afresh, they in all probability would not build
for boys, but having got the boys they decided that in the new school for 500
there should be places for 100 boys. Inasmuch as the infants were very much
in excess of the girls, they decided to build for only 100 girls and 300 infants.
Your Lordships will see that that gives a margin of 662. According to the
first Blue Book we had 1,178, and we were going to build for 1,000. Now we
propose to build for 500 ; therefore on the old Blue Book there would have been
a margin of 678 to draw upon. On the new figures, where the deficiency is
1,162, and we propose to build for 500, there is a margin of 662. With re-
ference to that margin, we say it will fully compensate for any mistakes or
errors which we have made. In order to show the bona fides with which the
Board proceeded, I will state what course the Board pursued, in consequence
of which we may make a deduction of 166 from the total number of children
who require elementary education. Canon Gregory was good enough to
forward us a memorandum which he addressed to the Education Department
in May of last year. We looked into the question the best way we could,
and returned him an answer. He them replied to that, and we gave him
further information from our point of view. While this was going on, the mem-
bers who represented Lambeth had all the original Census Books looked into
again. It must be pointed out that, with regard to the children whom the Re-
gistrar General reported to us as existing, the only possibility by which we could
make a mistake would be by putting the children into the wrong blocks. We
went through the whole series of Census Books again, and the result was that
we found out that in H. and I. we had 166 more children than we ought to
have. The manner in which the error occurred was pretty obvious. The
schedules of the Registrar General were taken in order: they are given street
by street. It very often happens that a street in E., for example, turns up
between two streets which are in H. A thorough sifting of the whole brought
out the fact that there were 166 children in H. and I. who should not
be there. That was verified by the superintendent of visitors, who has
since been appointed, going into every single street and verifying the num-
bers on the spot. We may, therefore, assume that our margin may be re-
duced by the 166 children who ought not to be there. There is, then,
the question about the children between three and five years of age. It appears
that the total number of children between three and five years of age not
attending
ELEMENTARY FDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 41
attending school in H. and I. were 476. Those who pleaded that they
were too young were 349. The difference between the two for whom we
were in theory making provision was 127. If your Lordships take the margin
of 662 mentioned above, and deduct the 166 children who ought not to be in the
blocks, and the 127 children below the age of 5, i. e. 293 in all, there will still
be a margin of 369 for any error we may have made. We might go a step
further than this; I might point out, that whilst on the one side of the account
you are only taking the children between 3 and 13 years of age, on the other side,
in efficient schools there are 100 children over 13 and under 3 who are in the
schools, and who, therefore, thereby diminish the available school places; that
would raise our margin to 469 again, I may say also, that in a paper furnished
by the Education Department, where they gave us the amount of efficient school
accommodation for the different schools under inspection, we find that in a great
number of schools here and there, our reckoning of the available school spaces
is less than theirs. We have taken the absolute number of eight square feet
without making any deductions; but the Government Inspectors do make de-
ductions with reference to cupboards, staircases, and so forth. Our case,
therefore, is, that as far as H. and I. are concerned there is a margin of 662, from
which should be deducted 166 children who are not there, and from which may
be deducted 127 for children between 3 and 13 years of age, for whom we, in
theory only propose to provide ; that would still leave us a margin of 369. I also
say that that margin might be still further increased by the children over 13
and under 3 who are sent to school in H. and I. -
31 1. Duke of Cleveland.] What number would you take off in that case ?
The children over 13 and under three years of age are exactly 100; that would
be 100 to add to 369, which would give us a margin of 469 without taking into
account the difference of reckoning between the Department and the Board, if
we pushed the case so far. I should point out to your Lordships that in doing
this I simply take the children between H. and I. on the one hand, and efficient
school places on the other. A great deal of the difference in statement which
has arisen is due to this, that the church of St. Peter's is just over the border
on the north side of Prince's-road, and the girls' and infants' school are on either
side of it. Naturally the clergyman who had charge of the district would look
upon those schools as belonging to his district. The contention of the Board,
however, is, that if you take in the girls and infant schools you must take a
corresponding amount of the population, and you cannot go beyond the border,
without taking the population with them. The opponents of the Bill have also
taken into consideration the schools which are within the quarter mile radius
circle close to the railways. A fortiori, if they take in those schools, must they
take in more of the surrounding population ? I will therefore briefly state
the case so far as H., I., and F. are involved. You will find that Doughty-street
School has now been made efficient in all departments; but still even with that
we shall find that we have a sufficient margin to account for any error. The total
number of children between 3 and 13 years of age in blocks H., I., and F. together
are 6,907. Making the deductions we arrive at 5,527. We get rid of 1,400
children for whom we make no provision whatever in theory; in practice
we do more. The amount of accommodation in those three districts
is 4,390 ; the deficiency therefore is 1,178; that is according to the
old Blue Book. In the corrected figures the total accommodation in
the schools is 4,578; that is more than it was before. You will find
that in page 73 of the new Report the figures are given in detail. Taking
in the three blocks, there is now a deficiency in H. of 664, and in I. of 498;
but on the other hand there is an excess of 213 in this new block which we
have introduced F. : setting off the deficiency in H. and I., against the excess
in F., we have, on the whole, a deficiency of 959. We are going to build for
500. Therefore, there is a margin of 459 on this state of the case, from which
should be deducted, as before, children who ought not to be in the blocks.
Taking the two blocks together, it appears that there should be 162 deducted,
because there were four in H. and I. originally which now belong to F. The
deduction of children will be 162, who ought not to be in the three blocks.
Then there are children between three and five years of age, 182.
312. Duke of Cleveland.] You are reckoning the school that is over the
border in F., and exempting it from H. and I.F
I am taking all the three blocks together, so that all the population and all
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
(119.) F the
42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON .
Mr. G. H. Croad, the schools are reckoned in the three blocks Deducting as before, there would
w 19th May 1873.
still be a margin of 115. That margin of 115 is, if we pursued the same course
as before, increased by 168 children above 13 years of age and under three,
who occasioned a diminution of space. Apart from that, there would still be, in
that view of the case, a margin of 115.
313. Earl Beauchamp.] That is the total result on the calculation of H., I.,
and F. together ? -
Yes. Af
314. And on the assumption that there is a deduction of 5 per cent. for
temporary absences? - -
Yes. We have put in the children between three and five years of age. We
have also deducted all the children who are improperly there. We have taken
no account of the children over 13 and under 3 years of age; they amount to 168.
The difference of accommodation between the Education Department and our-
selves, taking the three blocks together, amounts to 702. If we added the 168
and the 702 to our previous margin of 115, we should have on the whole a margin
of 985. We propose to build for 500, and then we say that there is a considerable
margin left. With reference to the cost, the cost of the site would not be more
than 3,500 l. Putting the schools at 8 / per head, that would be 4,000 l. ; the
two together would be 7,500 l.
315. You are reckoning the site of the new schools at 3,500 l. 2
Yes.
316. And, of course, these calculations are entirely based upon the assump-
tion that the general principles we have been considering in the early part of
the day are correct 2
Yes.
. 317. Any correction with regard to the deduction of 5 per cent, to be made
for temporary absences will materially modify the case as you have now stated
it with reference to the proposed school in Albion Cottage 2
Yes. We say we have a considerable margin. If the question is going to
be raised on each of these schools, we shall ask that those which are bond fide
deficiencies shall be allowed. If yon are going to say, instead of 5 per cent. 33
per cent must be the scale, we must look to the strict letter of the law, and ask
the question whether that space is to be filled by children above 13 and below
three years of age. -
318. The London School Board, as I understand, is to provide elementary
education first of all; and, secondly, to compel children to avail themselves of it;
but, pending the interval for the completion of the provision for elementary
education, the School Board have no right to take exception to the places which
are vacant being filled by outsiders 2
No ; we are very glad that they should be so filled.
319. All you have to do, as I understand the matter, is to consider the
accommodation provided, and, if necessary, supply the deficiency; and, secondly,
to compel the children to come in
Yes.
320. Therefore, in considering the amount of school accommodation actually
existing, you cannot make any deduction in respect of outsiders coming in
Supposing the accommodation is for 2,000, and that there is a certain number
of children (say 100) going to school who are over 13 and under 3 years of age,
in accommodating your population you must diminish your school places by 100,
in order to arrive at the available amount of school accommodation. You cannot
have the benefit of including children above 13 and under 3 on the one hand,
and yet retain the accommodation as available for children between 3 and 13
in the schools where those children are.
321. As a matter of fact, do you not suppose that any such attendance on the
part of children over thirteen years of age, is merely temporary 2
I do not think it is temporary; because in nearly all schools, there are children
Over 13 years of age, and a few under three years of age.
* 322. We have reason to know that this is an exceedingly poor neighbourhood.
Is
ELEMENTARY EDU CATION PROVISIONAL ORDER conFIRMATION BILL. 43
Is it usual to send children above the age of 13 years to school, paying school
fees 2 -
This is a matter of fact as to which we can produce the returns.
323. Is it likely, as a matter of opinion, that such a state of things can be
more than temporary 2
It prevails generally throughout London, and throughout all schools, that
some children remain after the age of 13. º
324. But although the average may amount to a certain number, yet the
instances are likely to be temporary : -
I should be inclined to contend that there will, generally speaking, be always
found a certain number.
325. Then I understand you to say, that on a broad calculation, taking the
three blocks together, there is only a deficiency of 106 : -
I say that, taking our figures, to begin with there is a deficiency of 959;
taking H., I. and F. together.
326. I understood you to say that you made calculations on the part of the
Board, which had reduced that deficiency of 106 to a low number 2
Yes; I may explain that we proposed to build for 500, and that left a margin
of 459. Deduct from that the children in H., J., and F., who should not be there
(162), there would still remain a margin of nearly 300. If your Lordships choose
to say that the children between three and five years of age for whom we propose
to provide accommodation should be struck out, then we should get that number
reduced to 115.
327. Taking H., I, and F. together, you find an excess of provision for boys,
do you not
There is an excess, and I say the only reason for having a boys' school there
is, that we had collected the children together, and thought it undesirable that
they should be seattered.
328. In an excess for the accommodation of boys, do you think it worth
while to put the ratepayers to the expense of building more schools?
Yes; if we do not build for those boys we should have to provide for 500
infants and girls. It is merely a question of providing for the 100 boys
who are already there ; if we did not take the boys, we should take the girls
in their place.
329. The number of boys existing within the district is limited, and the
number of girls is limited; you provide for the one in order to accommodate
the other 7
We are providing less than we should provide for the girls and infants;
there is a margin in either of those cases in order to meet any error that went
before. The great deficiency is no doubt in infants, but there is this difficulty,
you cannot get the infants to school unless the girls are to go with them.
330. Duke of Cleveland.] Do you mean that the girls cannot come to school,
unless the infants go to school?
The parents will not trust their young children to go to school in crowded
streets, unless their elder sisters go with them to look after them.
33). Earl Beauchamp.] How many children between three and five years of
age are there in blocks H., I., and F., in the whole 2
There are 949 attending, and 695 not attending ; 1,644 altogether.
332. For what number of infants are you making provision now 2
Out of those 695, between three and five years of age, who are not attending
school, the parents in 513 cases pleaded that they were too young, so that in
all three together we only propose to provide for 182 infants, and our margin
will far more than cover that.
333. Taking the existing aceommodation into account 2
After that has been balanced by the children who could go in, there are 695
children not attending, and 513 of those pleaded that they were too young.
The difference between the two is 182; we have only taken steps to provide .
for those 182.
334. How many vacant places are there altogether in the infant schools :
Mr. G, H, Croadſ.
19th May 1873.
(119.) • F 2 ? That
44 MINUTES of EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT comm ITTEE ON
Mr. G. H. Croad.
Aº-º
19th May 1873.
That I am not able to answer directly, but as we are by the Act governed by
the Education Department, it does not matter how many vacancies there
are.
335. Although you have no power of compelling children between three and
five years of age to come in, you are bound to provide for them?
Yes, the Legislature must undo its work if we are to go on a different
COURTSé.
336. With regard to block K., what is the educational population of
block K. 2
According to the figures in the first Biue Book, the total number of places
which there should be in K., is 582. .
337. I asked you first as to the total number of children, of a school-going
age in K. 2
1,042.
338. What is the existing accommodation in efficient schools 2
Four hundred and fifty-seven.
339. Are there any Board schools in block K. ?
There are no Board schools there.
340. What do you propose to provide in block K. P
We take K., and C. H. and C. I. together; we propose to build there for 500;
the deficiency being greater, we hold that in those three together there is an
absolute deficiency of 989.
341. What is the number of children of a school-going age in C. H. P
In C. H., 1,056.
342. What is the number of the same class of children in C. I. 2
Nine hundred and ninety-nine.
343. Can you give us the accommodation; we will take it that there is a
deficiency of 999 in all those three blocks :
We propose to build for 500, and a margin of 489.
344. Can you tell us where the school is to be situated ?
No site has been selected at present.
345. Then I understand that the Bill at present before Parliament does not
contain the whole of the sites which it will be necessary to purchase ?
No ; the case is this: last year we had a Bill in Parliament which passed
through without any opposition, which enabled us to secure a certain number of
sites, and other sites have since been secured by agreement.
346. Duke of Cleveland.] Have you secured sites in K. 7
We have not secured one at present; we originally started with 20, but by
agreement that was reduced to 12 ; during the last year we have purchased a
great number of sites by agreement; in the Bill before your Lordships' House
there were 62 altogether, but only 22 of those can be considered as sites not
touched. We are seeking for power to obtain in certain cases, outstanding
interests; the others are schools transferred to us with leases which we are pro-
posing to make freehold.
347. Can you give us some idea as to the number of sites that remain to be
acquired, whether compulsorily or otherwise, even supposing this Bill to become
law 7
I thould think there would probably be from 10 to 15 ; some of those sites
would probably never be secured, for this reason, that three or four are cases
which we hold entirely in abeyance, having come to that conclusion from special
causes. It is doubtful whether we shall ever require them at all ; there is a
school which has been projected at Kensal New Town for three or four years.
348. Projected by whom 2
It was the gift of a lady who left the money to the Bishop of London Fund.
According to theory we ought to build there for 700 ; knowing that there was
this site we held our hands entirely ; it is four years since the site was secured.
Similarly in Finsbury, a clergyman, the Reverend Mr. Ormeston, has been
proposing to build a school for a long time past, and he is now beginning to
º build
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. .45
build it, and we therefore stopped our hands. Two sites in Saint George's-in- ~
e e e © a tº º g Mr. G. H. Croad.
the-East are likewise in abeyance; it is almost certain that we shall not build sammº-
upon one, and it is very doubtful whether we shall build on the other. 19th May 1873.
349. Do you think it is possible that if some of these sites are not acquired
compulsorily, other means will be found to supply the deficiency?
I think the only case is the one in the Roman-road. I am not aware in any
* of any steps being taken to build schools apart from the School
Oa.I'Cl.
350. Lord Bishop of Winchester.] In a district marked T. on this map, has
anything been determined
We take T. as one of a group of four subdivisions, L., M., N., and T. We
find the total deficiency is 2,264. We are only proposing to build for
800. 0.
351. Is the site of the new school settled yet?
It is a site known as the Nursery Ground, in Chapter-road, Walworth.
352. Is it scheduled in the Bill 2
Yes. The site itself is not in T. The site for the whole district is in M. We
have had a certain number of memorials and deputations before us. This is a
case in which we had our attention drawn to the fact that a school was wanted
by the clergyman of the district.
353. I should like to go back to H. and I. I think you told us that in-
structions which have been formed for various schools in these districts were
to take as the boundaries some considerable thoroughfares 2
Yes, subject to a block containing a population of which the maximum was
10,000. -
354. What is the population of H. and I. Ž
The population together is 20,000. In making certain calculations based
upon that, we shall have to deduct the workhouse population, because there
are only adults therein. The children are away at Norwood. The whole
population, including the workhouse, is 20,000, so that you may take it, with-
out the workhouse population, as 19,000.
355. Those that may be fairly taken as representing the action of the School
Board 2
This is a case where we are closest to the line. We consider that this case is
defensible; but I should think in every other instance our case is a great deal
stronger.
356. I was asking you as to the question of division. May we take it that
these two blocks fairly represent the way in which the blocks throughout the
metropolis generally are divided ?
I think those are very fair representatives; for parts which are pretty well
built upon, those are very good average representatives.
357. You mean where the population is most dense ?
Yes; the east is rather more open than the west. It is in the neighbourhood
of Vauxhall Walk, which is a street not in very high repute: it is rather a poor
neighbourhood. Vauxhall Walk runs north and south by the side of the railway.
There are model-lodging houses, and so forth, scattered about. The Bill relates
to Albion Cottage, which is in the centre between the two.
358. Lord Lawrence.] What has been the action on Canon Gregory's Schools :
Taking the returns for H. and I. alone, we found that two years ago, the
actual attendance, which may be taken as the average attendance, was 1,358.
In exactly the corresponding schools, we found that, excluding a temporary
Board school which has been started, in the quarter ended last Christmas, the
average attendance was 1,509, being an increase of about 150 in the average
attendances. The Lady-day quarter average was 1,468, which is a slight dimi-
nution on the previous quarter. Taking the three blocks together, H., I., and
F., we find that the average attendance in all the schools there in the spring of
1871 was 2,469; the average attendance during the quarter ended Christmas last
was 2,626, and the average attendance for the quarter ended Lady-day last was
about 2,583, in either case an increase in the average attendance. In addition
to that the Board Schools in Miller's-lane having been started, and the inefficient
(119.) F 3 departments
46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE on
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
The Rev, Canon
Gregory. ...:
tº-mºmenºs
departments of Doughty-street School having been made efficient, the increase
in average attendance was 393 last Christmas, and 402 last quarter; so that while
we have not reduced but have even increased the average attendance of other
schools, that is independent of the increased attendance which we have managed
to secure in our own Schools.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
The Reverend Canon GREGORY is called in ; and Examined, as follows:
359. Chairman.] WHAT is your Parish
I am the Vicar of the Parish of St. Mary-the-Less, Lambeth; I may say
that I built the Church of St. Peter about 10 years ago, and that the schools were
in existence before the district was formed ; therefore for all educational pur-
poses the two districts have gone on as one. We have acted with a common
committee; our schools are conducted as they were before. There are 10 schools
in our districts under our management. I should like first of all to call the atten-
tion of the Committee to the population of the districts. The Registrar General
informs me that the population of the two parishes at the last census was 19,952.
360. Those would comprise H. and I. 2
Those would comprise H. and 1.
361. Duke of Cleveland.] Does that comprise the workhouse population ?
The workhouse contained 857 people; I have got that likewise from the
Registrar General. We have, therefore, to deal with the population in H. and I.,
which is 19,000 people. The ordinary rule of reckoning would be taking one-
sixth, that accommodation would be required for 3,182 children. It is quite
true, as Mr. Croad says, that two of our schools is over the line, and that those
two schools contain accommodation for 404 children.
362. Both those schools are over the line 2
They are a girls' school, and an infant school.
363. They are both over the line !
They are just over the line; they are on the other side of the road. For the
purpose of school accommodation I will take the figures provided by the Board,
which will prevent all possible dispute. They give, as the school accommodation
in H. and I., 2,961. I claim to add my own Schools, which have existed for the
last 40 years, which give school accommodation for 404, and so raise the total
accommodation to 3,365 or nearly 200 more than one-sixth of the population.
Hn addition to this, I wish you to observe that in this calculation I have claimed
no allowance whatever for children of a better class. There is school accom-
modation for one in six of the population in primary Schools under Government
inspection, leaving out of the reckoning that some of the children may be of
a superior class, and so may not require provision to be made for them in primary
schools.
364. Chairman.] What is your next point :
The next point that I should like to call attention to is with regard to what
is said about the new schools in no way damaging our Schools. A Board school
was opened in Miller's-lane, against which I protested at the time, and about
which I had considerable correspondence with the Board. I thought the Board
showed so little practical knowledge of what they had to deal with, that I
thought it unnecessary to trouble them further when I heard of a new school
being projected on the site of Albion Cottages. The Board school in Miller's-
lane could not injure our schools in its immediate neighbourhood. They are of
a very superior class, and are for children of a superior class. The fees range
from 3 d. to 9 d. a week. We have a cheap School called St. Paul's School.
The Board opened a school exactly opposite our superior schools, and these
schools were not injured. This school (referring to the Plan) and the Roman
Catholic schools are both intended for children of the same class. The imme-
diate effect of opening the Board school has been to reduce the average attendance
at St. Paul's School, our poor school, from 418 to 301. The Roman Catholic
schools are very far indeed from being full, for, whereas according to the return
they would hold 412 children, I think the return for the week ending 25th April
was, that in their three schools they only had 159 children. There are schools
for
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 47
for boys, girls, and infants. There were 253 vacant places in the Roman Catholic The Rev. Canon.
schools, where they charge I d. per week. In our schools, where we also charge Gregory.
I d. a week, where there is room for 614 children, we have 301. Therefore, more 19th May 1873.
than half our school is empty, and more than half the Roman Catholic school is
empty. I think, then, I have shown, first, that we have a very much higher
percentage of accommodation than is ordinarily required; more than one sixth;
next, that we have a very large amount of deficit accommodation throughout.
If we compare the three years, 1871, 1872, and 1873, the result is as follows:
in 1871 there were attending 1,531 children; in 1872 there were 1,727, so that
we had gained 196; in 1873 there were attending 1,860, without the Board
school, so that we had gained 136, or, with the Board school, 305. But that has
not been beyond the ordinary growth of school accommodation. I may say that
when I took possession of the parish, nearly 20 years ago, there was very little
being done for education in the parish. I began, at the beginning of 1854, with
three boys and three girls in the two schools, one on each side of the church.
We have now 1,500 children in average attendance at the schools. It has been
a regular steady growth. The school accommodation has always been largely
in excess of the wants of the parish. We were gradually getting the whole of
the children of the parish into the schools. Then I would say, further, with regard
to distance, that the whole distance of my parish, from the water to the top, is
800 yards. The widest part across is 600 yards.
365 Duke of Cleveland.] Are you taking H. and I. together
Yes; I am told by Mr. Gedge that those circles on the map exhibited by the
School Board represent a quarter of a mile. The inner circle represents a quarter
of a mile, and the outer circle 500 yards. Therefore, their proposed school is
not 200 yards from the schools already existing with 1,200 vacant places. In the
existing schools we have accommodation for 3,048, with an attendance of 1,860;
1,200 all but 12. We have, therefore, 40 per cent. of vacancies. I would call
attention to how very nearly that resembles the 38 per cent. vacant in the Board
school. Mr. Croad made a great point of the number of children that there were
in the parish. He asserted that there were 4,957 children. That would give us
more than one in four of the population being of school age.
366. Earl of Harrowby..] Are you speaking of the same area º
Precisely the same area ; I do not travel in the least bit beyond H. and I.,
excepting to name my two schools which are just over the line.
367. You are speaking now of the two parishes 2
I call the two parishes one district.
368. Those two parishes coincide with H. and I. 7
Exactly.
369. Lord Lawrence.] As I understand, while you take in the children of the
school in H., you do not take the whole population in F. P
I have nothing to do with the population of F.; what is more, I am prepared
to give up half the accommodation of my schools, and still to show that we have
room for one-sixth of the population.
370. Earl of Harrowby..] But, then, although you may have nothing to do
with F., it does not follow that the Board have nothing to do with F.
There is a school of the Board containing 600 children within 100 yards of us,
namely, the Doughty-street School; they give that as containing 575 children.
That is little more than 100 yards from your Prince's-road schools. On the
other side of those schools, there is a large British and Foreign School built to
contain 356 children; I take no account of those whatever; I confine myself to
H. and I., with the sole exception of claiming a proportion of my own schools,
although they are on the other side of the imaginary line.
371. Have you made any calculation of the number of children who attend
your schools who are actually living in F. :
I think in such matters it is a case of give-and-take. A good many of Our
children go to the Doughty-street Schools, and a considerable number of children
in F. come to our schools; therefore, I should say that it is a case of give-and-
take, that about an equal number of children cross the imaginary line to attend
schools on the other side of it. - 4
372. Lord Lawrence.] But, in point of fact, I understand you have not taken
the whole population of F. 2
(119.) F 4 I have
48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
The Rev. Canon
Gregory.
19th May 1873.
I have nothing to do with the population of F.
37 3. But still, you have not taken that into calculation ?
I am speaking of H. and I., which is the whole case before us.
374. Your schools over the border of F. are not within H. and I. ; and there-
fore if you take H. and I., and a portion of F., we consider that you are bound
to take the whole of the population ?
For 40 years those schools have stood there as the whole Church school accom-
modation for H. and I.; therefore, with the traditions of the past it is certain that
a large majority of children will go to those particular schools. It shows that
the figures of Mr. Croad, which have been before the Committee, are utterly
wild. He talks of there being 4,957 children out of a population of 19,000,
being more than one in four. We are not so very prolific in that part of
Lambeth that we should have half as many children again as are to be found any-
where else. More than that, Mr. Croad corrected his figures so often as to
make it appear as though he mistakes hundreds for thousands. We must take
the average population for supplying the schools. Supposing that instead of the
3,100 children whom we ought to have according to the number of children
in the metropolis, we had 4,597, we should then have 1,800 more than on the
average we ought to have ; that would be a mere accident and must correct itself,
for the families would remove, or the children grow up, and so the exceptional
state would cease, Ours is a very fluctuating population. What the Bishop of
Winchester said is quite correct. I have had 22 years experience of Lambeth,
and I should say, as far as my observation extended, the population changes, on
the average, once in six months. Therefore, although they may change
from one street to another, or out of one district into another, it is not fair to take
an exceptional ratio of children to population. I assume that we must take an
average, as it is proposed to build schools not for the few years in which we
may possibly be in an exceptional position, but which may exist for all time, and
yet the School Board want us to believe that there are 1,800 children more in
this district than there ought to be, and that we are to assume that to the end
of time such will be the condition of this parish.
375. Allow me to go back to the old subject; the position of the Board is
that if you take the children in H., I., and F., you must also take the whole
population in H., I., and F. ; you may have nothing to do with that ; they may
not be in your parish, but still they are in your locality. I understand that
the population of those districts is not something like 19,000, but is nearer
30,000; that is to say, assuming the population of H. and I. to be 19,000, that
F., in a block of something the same size as one of these blocks, has something
like the same population; but at any rate, whatever the population is, and what-
ever the number of children may be, do you challenge the return of the Regis-
trar General, and say that the number of the population and the children is wrong?
I challenge one of two things, either that your numbers with regard to the
children are hopelessly wrong, or that they are so exceptional in this particular
item that you cannot take them as the basis of legislation.
376. I point out to you, that you are taking a portion of F. as regards the
children, and you are wrong as to H. and I. :
Are the districts made by Act of Parliament, or are they really arbitrary 2
377. You know very well that they are not made by Act of Parliament, but
that they are made according to the judgment and discretion of the members
of the Board who represent that division ; of course you may challenge those
boundaries, but still you may look at it on the map and see that they are dealt
with on a general principle of having a consistent moderate extent of area.
But the great point that I come back to, because I think that is a point which
you will excuse me for saying you evade is, that you do not take the popula-
tion of the three subdivisions, but you really take the number of the children P
I have no doubt there is as strong a case for F. as there is for I., but I have
not got it up ; I may say that a large portion of the population of F. consists
of middle class people. For instance, there is Lambeth Walk which contains
the greatest part of the population; it consists entirely of tradesmen; there are
about 200 houses, containing on the average six or seven people, or about
1,400 persons, all of whom belong to the middle class, living in houses
of from 60 l. to 70 l. a year. Therefore, to provide primary education for .
people
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 49
people who can afford to pay their l l or 2 l. a quarter for the education of their
children, seems to me to be extravagant, to say the least of it.
378. Earl Beauchamp.] Supposing you find three blocks, two of which are
amply provided with school accommodation, does it not appear reasonable to
put the schools where they may be required, and not to interfere with the
existing educational arrangements?
Undoubtedly. There is not a child in our district who is 200 yards away
from a suitable and efficient school. We have 1,200 vacant places.
379. Chairman.] Do you include in your district F.
No ; H. and I. I do not include F., because I have not a very accurate
knowledge of F.
380. Duke of Cleveland.] H, and I. include those two parishes?
Exactly; they are conterminous.
381. What is the population outside that line, which is drawn out of H. and
I., but which is still in your parish :
There is none out of my parish,
382. F. includes a certain area; a portion of F. is in your parish 2
Simply the church and Schools, not a single house.
383. Earl of Harrowby.] Then it is providing for a portion of the district
which is out of your parish : -
When they built the church, it was found most convenient to make the dis-
trict in that way. Therefore these schools were for many years the only Church
of England Schools for the whole of this district.
384. The question is whether a certain district, not a certain parish, is under
provided or over provided. The question is what your limitation of districts
will be 7 t
Even upon that ground I think their case is a hopeless one for themselves,
because there is a population of 19,000. -
385. Is that the whole of the district 2
H. and I. I am leaving F. entirely out now.
386. That is the district you are proposing to supply
Yes. !
Mr. Croad.] Where Canon Gregory speaks of 19,000, he means the
population of H. and I., H. including the workhouse. Taking F., there is
an addition of 10,000. -
The Witness.] I claim that my schools, or 404 on the other side, ought
to be considered ; but, even without them, I claim that there is sufficient
accommodation, because the population is 19,000. The estimate is, that
I in 6 ought to be at school; I in 6 of 19,000 is 3,182. We have got,
according to the returns of the School Board, School accommodation for
2,961. We are, therefore, only short by 166; but, then, we have some
children of the middle class; if we can show that there are 166 children
of the middle class existing in the parish, the school accommodation is
sufficient. I am speaking of H. and I. alone. Then I assert that we have
more than 166 children able to pay 9 d. per week, in the two blocks H. and
I. So that, even although you deny me the benefit of my own Schools, in
which numbers of the children of my parish are taught, we have ample
school accommodation. -
387. Lord Lawrence..] You take the whole of the district as regards educa-
tion as one-sixth of the population ?
Yes.
388. That would be a very fair calculation, had you not an actual return of
the children in those subdivisions; but where you have an actual return you
should no longer, I presume, calculate on one-sixth, but you must take the
actual number of children who have been ascertained to be there 7
Did you never hear of places being exceptionally populous with regard to
children at one period, and in a few years exceptionally the reverse? I have
The Rev. Canon
Gregory.
19th May 1873.
(119.) G known
!
50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
* * *
* -
*
The Rev. Canon
Gregory,
i 9th May 1873.
known people in the country obliged to close their schools, because there are
no children to go to school; in consequence of their pupils having grown up
there were no more children to go to school. If you choose to legislate for an
exceptional state of things, of course you can do so; all your own returns show
that it is most exceptional, because you propose to assume that we have in
this district 4,597 children, where, according to your own showing, we ought to
have 3,182.
389. We do not assume anything; we take that which the returns give us;
if you challenge these returns, and say the returns are wrong, then we must
join issue on that point, and verify those figures. Are you prepared to have
the returns both as to the population, if you challenge them, and the children,
if you challenge them, verified by an expert :
You cannot verify the need for the population with regard to the children,
because they are varying every year; therefore, you must take the average, and
act upon an average,
390. Earl Beauchamp.] Is not that calculation of the Board based entirely
on the assumption that only 5 per cent. would be absent from temporary
causes 7 - s - -
Five per cent. is that assumption; but yet, in spite of all their compulsory
powers, they have 38 per cent, of the children whose names are upon the books
of their own schools absent. Therefore, although we have very nearly double
the school accommodation which is required, they want to tax the ratepayers to
the extent of some thousands of pounds for schools which never can be needed,
because there never can be children to attend them.
391. Lord Lawrence.j You know that we are making our estimate of school
accommodation with a deduction of 5 per cent. for those who are absent; we
show by the Returns that that is within the margin, because beyond 5 per
cent. are absent :
The other things that you take are numbers who can never in any possible
way enter into it. Taking the metropolis, you take out of the 681,000,
4,000 sick. If you take the number of children who can never get out of
their houses, there must be that number in London.
392. Earl Beauchamp.] The calculation of the Board with regard to
absences deals with those who are actually on the books of the schools; given,
the number of children on the books of the school, the absences will only be
5 per cent. ; that is the assumption of the Board ; . .
Yes.
393. The evidence we have had to-day tends to show that, given the number
of children on the books of the school, the absences are at least 33 per cent.
Yes.
394. That leaves entirely out of consideration all those children who are not
upon the books of the school 3
Yes.
395. That leaves out of consideration those who are disabled, those who are
too young, those who from some causes, just or unjust, are not on the books of
the school; and it merely deals with the names of those who having been once
enrolled as scholars, are so largely absent as to bring the number up to 33
per cent. ”
Yes.
396. Therefore any deduction made for not allowing children to get on the
rolls of the school, has no reference to the temporary absence of those who are
enrolled as scholars 7
No, that has been already met.
397. To get at the facts the Board had an enumeration ?
Yes.
398. That enumeration they have corrected by calculations of their own, and
they do not provide in that for the children enumerated in the census 2
No. -
399. Therefore the question to be considered is, whether those deductions are
accurate; by which I do not mean that the ciphering is correct, but whether
they
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 51
4.
they proceed on an accurate principle. It is confessedly unnecessary to provide
for all the children enumerated by the census. You must make some deductions,
and the question is, what deductions should be made. Your experience as a
school manager of many years' standing, tends to confirm that which has come
out by an examination of the Board's returns, that the average absence of
children enrolled as scholars is 33 per cent. Ż
Yes, always over 30 per cent.
400. Earl of Harrowby.] I suppose when you have provided your schools,
you have not provided for the average, but you have provided for the
maximum ?
We have nearly half our schools empty; so that if we provided for the maxi-
mum we have got accommodation for a great many more than come. ~.
401. Lord Lawrence.] You have stated that your school accommodation is
very much in excess of the wants of the district. Can you give us the details
of the accommodation under those circumstances, taking only the schools which
have been pronounced efficient 2
Yes, I can. I will take the average of the attendance for the week April 21
to April 25; I took that, because it was the most recent week, as I thought I
should have been examined earlier. In St. Peter's upper boys' school, there
is room for 200 boys. In 1871 there were 80; in 1872, 82; and in 1873, 86.
In the lower boys' school in St. Peter's there is room for about 200 boys. In
1871 there were 1.12; in 1872, 138; and in 1873, 134. In St. Peter's girls'
school there is room for 200 girls ; and in 1871 there were 73; in 1872,
74; and in 1873, 87. In St. Peter's infant school there is room also for 200.
In 1871 there were 87 ; in 1872 there were 81 ; and in 1873 there are 118.
I may say that these all charge higher fees than the School Board. In St.
Mary's boys' school in Park-street, there is accommodation for 250. There
were 99 in 1871; 128 in 1872; and 172 in 1873. In St. Mary's girls' schools
there is accommodation for 202. There we charge 3 d. per week.
402. Earl Beauchamp.] Where is that school
In Prince's-road. This is one of the schools on the other side of the imaginary
line. In 1871 there were 157; in 1872 there were 120 ; and in 1873 there were
126. In St. Mary’s infant schools, where we charge 3 d. per week, there is
accommodation for 202. In 1871 there was no school; the boys' school has
been built since. In 1872 there were 92, and in 1873 there are 160. In the
schools in Salamanca, where the charge is 1 d., there is accommodation
for 260. In 1871 there were 108; in 1872 there were 213; and in 1873,
223. The next are two schools which we contend have been very much
injured. St. Paul's boys' school, which contains accommodation for 307, in
1871 there were 150; in 1872 there were 137; and in 1873 there were 1 18.
In St. Paul's girls' school there is accommodation for 307. In 1871 there were
260 ; in 1872 there were 281 ; and in 1873, 183.
403. I find in the Statistical Committee's Report for the division of Lambeth,
that St. Paul's girls’ school accommodation is stated to be 150%
The two schools are put down here as 614.
404. There are no infants?
The infants and girls go together. In addition to these Church schools, there
is the accommodation provided by the Dissenting schools, I should say that
we have a Wesleyan school, British and Foreign schools, and Roman Catholic
schools. The accommodation in the Wesleyan school is put at 262. In 1871,
in their girls' School, they had 146 children present; in 1872, the number was
132; and in 1873 it is 73. In the infant school there is accommodation for
126 children. They had no school in 1871 and 1872. In 1873 they had
70 scholars,
405. Lord Lawrence.] Perhaps you are aware that under the Act of Parlia-
ment we are compelled to make provision for the actual wants of the district
without taking into consideration any accommodation that may be available in
other schools. I do not say that we do not take it into consideration ; but in
point of fact we are called upon to supply the deficiency wherever it may
exist?
The Rev. Canon
Gregory.
19th May 1873.
(119.) G 2 Can
52 . MINUTES OF Ev1DENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT com MITTEE on
* “The Rev. Canon
Gregory.
29th May 1873.
Can there be said to be any deficiency when there is nearly double the school
accommodation which is ever used?
406. If that accommodation is never used, how can you say that it is avail-
able for children who may never go into it? #
I am referred to Clause 8 of the Act, which is this: “For the purpose of
determining with respect to every school district the amount of public school
accommodation, if any, required for such district, the Education Department
shall, immediately after the passing of this Act, cause such returns to be made
as in this Act mentioned, and on receiving those returns, and after such inquiry,
if any, as they think necessary, shall consider whether any, and what, public
school accommodation is required for such district, and in so doing they shall
take into consideration every school, whether public, elementary, or not, and
whether actually situated in the school district or not, which in their opinion
gives, or will when completed give, efficient elementary education to and is, or
will when completed be, suitable for the children of such district.” I venture
to ask whether that does not apply in favour of my parish schools : -
407. That section refers not merely to the districts made by the London
School Board, but to schools formerly constituted by the Education Department.
Does that apply to these sub-districts which is framed by the London School
Board 2
In fairness, the school accommodation supplied ought to be for the special
districts that want the schools. We ought not to be prejudiced by the fact
that one of our schools is over an imaginary line; we have expended 15,000 l.
in providing school accommodation, which is more than enough for the wants
of the population, and some of which as a matter of fact is not required.
408. The London School Board has the power to supply the whole district
with adequate accommodation; as far as the district is concerned it embraces
the whole metropolitan area, which district is divided into divisions; but if on
Clause 8 the Education Department are bound to take into consideration
suitable accommodation for parts lying outside the district, d fortiori they are
bound to take into consideration suitable accommodation for the population
within the district of the Board?
Quite so.
409. These districts were made for the purpose of convenience, independently
of the authority of the London School Board 7 -
Quite so. Therefore when a parish has made such efforts as my parish has
made to supply school accommodation, they do feel it to be a great injustice
that unnecessary schools erected at the cost of the ratepayers should be imposed
upon them by the London School Board.
41o. Earl of Harrowby..] Would that be a local rate or a metropolitan rate 2
Schools have been provided efficiently.
411. The expenses of the proposed school would be borne by the whole of
the metropolis, would they not 2 * * *.
Quite so. I do not hesitate to say that the feeling throughout my parish is
that the Board is putting that school up in order to punish Mr. Gregory for his
opposition, for that there can be no need of it. That is assumed on all hands.
412. Lord Lawrence.] Did the Board decide to put a school there before you
opposed it, or did they decide to put a school after you opposed it 2 Did not
your opposition arise in consequence of the School Board having determined to
put a school there 7
The first I heard of it was after the opposition to the Miller's-lane School.
I have no reason to suppose that it was thought of before the opposition was
made to the Miller's-lane School.
Mr. Croad.] Perhaps I may be allowed to state, as a matter of fact, that
this was before the proposal as to Miller's-lane School was started.
413. Lord Lawrence.] I cannot conceive how it can fairly be stated, that the
opposition to the existing schools led to the selection of the proposed site for a
school as a punishment"
I do not mean to say that that is my own opinion, but it is the general opinion
of the district.
414. Have
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 53
414. Have all the schools which you have enumerated been pronounced
sufficient 7
All ; I should say that they are all under Government inspection. I have
not taken any account of any private schools there may be in the parish.
415. Duke of Cleveland.] As the clergyman of that district, you are perhaps
aware whether there are any other private schools? - g
Quantities; and I should have thought some of them very fair ones, but still
I have not taken them into account at all.
416. Of course you have no means of stating what kind of schools there
are 2 *
I have not. I know there are one or two very popular ones. There is one
on my side of Prince's-road. I have occasionally looked in upon it, and I
...have always found the room very full.
417. Is that a school of a higher class?
From 6 d. to 1 s. per week; I think the younger children pay 6 d., and the
elder children pay 1 s. a week. -
418. Is that a Church of England school?
It is a private school where religion does not come in at all. The mistress
who keeps it belongs to the Church of England, and I know that there were some
scholars of Jew parents there. The poorer classes are divided into three grades;
we have tried to grade our schools for the whole of the district, as recognising
that there are three grades. We have had three large schools for over 900
children, where the charge is I d. per week. There are considerable numbers
in the middle class for which 2 d. per week is charged. Then there is a higher
class for the children of artisans, where the charge is from 6 d. to 9 d.
419. Lord Lawrence.] If you were aggrieved at what the Board had done,
or were about to do, why did not you and the other leading inhabitants of
H, and I., offer to come to the Board, and join issue with them :
I presented a petition about the school in Miller's-lane, and I thought the
Board showed such little practical knowledge of their business, that it was of no
use to apply further to them.
420. Earl Beauchamp.] When did you present that petition about Miller's-
lane 2 -
In February 1872.
421. When did you receive an answer to that petition ?
Very soon.
422. In what way did the Board show that they possessed little practical
knowledge?
They simply took the doctrinaire view of the figures, without going into the
details. The only thing that they would take were the Census figures. It
seems to me that for persons to really manage a great educational question like
this they must possess a certain amount of practical educational knowledge, as
well as some local knowledge.
423. Lord Lawrence.] That being the case, in your opinion, why did not
you offer to give them that knowledge, so as to supply data upon which you
thought they were deficient?
I was so little encouraged by their replies. A question was asked as to
whether any consultation was ever had with the School Board. I never heard
one single word from the School Board with respect to the schools, or proposals
from schools, which they are about to make in the district, except through the
newspapers. <e
424. But surely, you being aggrieved, feeling that you had such knowledge,
which undoubtedly you do possess, and a great knowledge of the locality, it
was incumbent upon you to come forward, and show that the Board were
wrong :
I came forward once, and had I been in the least encouraged to make any
statement to the Board I should have done so again, but I was not.
The Rev. Canon
Gregory.
19th May 1873.
119.) * G 3 425. You
54 MINUTES, OR EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE oN
The Rev. Canon
Gregory,
19th May 1873.
425. You came forward in writing, did you not :
Yes. If I had been asked to have come forward I should have been glad to
have done so. My time is precious, and I do not wish to dance attendance on
the Board.
426. Instead of dancing attendance on the Board, as you phrase it, you could
have asked to be heard 2 ſº
I made my requisition. I imagined that if they thought I had any case at all,
they would have responded to my request; but I was told simply that they had
a certain rule, and I was bowed out.
427. Will you read your letter to them, and their answer?
I may say that the first was a letter which I addressed to the Vice-President
of the Educational Department. I will read that, because I enclosed it to the
Board. -
428. I did not allude to that, because, although it is quite true the Depart- *
ment sent us a copy, I am not aware of your writing to the Board itself 2 -
Yes; I have got some correspondence with the Board. The first was this
Memorial to the Education Department, dated 3rd May 1872 :—
. To the Right Honourable the President and Vice President of the Education
Department.
The Petition of the Committee of Managers of the National Schools of St.
Peter's, Vauxhall, in the county of Surrey,
Sheweth,
That your Petitioners erected the above schools to accommodate 800 children, boys,
girls, and infants, and have managed them in such a manner as to secure unvarying reports
of their efficiency from Her Majesty's Inspector of Schools. They are taught by four
certificated teachers and an adequate staff of pupil teachers. Last year the average
attendance was 460. -
That the London School Board has hired a room exactly opposite the above schools (the
lane which divides them being not more than 20 feet wide), for the purpose of using it as
a public elementary school for which they have agreed to pay an annual rent of 50 l.
That besides the above schools of your Petitioners, there are within five minutes walk-
of the proposed school in Miller's-lane, on different sides of it, the following schools
taught by certificated teachers and conducted as public elementary schools according to
the requirements of the Act of 1870. Two Roman Catholic schools in Vauxhall-walk
for boys, girls, and infants, with accommodation for 320 children, and having last year an
average attendance of 180. Two Church schools (St. Paul’s) in Vauxhall-walk, with
accommodation for 614 children, boys, girls, and infants, and having an avera ge attendance
last year of 388. Two Wesleyan schools in Vauxhall-walk, with accommodation for 260
children, and having last year an average attendance of 129. One Church school
(St. Saviour's, Salamanca), in Anderson's-walk, for girls and infants, having accommodation
for 250 children, and an average attendance last year of 196. Two schools in Doughty-
street (ragged schools), which have been recently handed over to the School Board, and
are capable of accommodating 690 children, but are now closed for repairs, and in which
there was an average attendance last year of 250. Two Church schools (St. Mary the
Less) in Princes-road, for girls and infants, with accommodation for 404 children, and
having last year an average attendance of 255. A boys' school in George-street, conducted
on the principles of the British and Foreign School Society, with accommodation for 340
children, and an average attendance of 210. A newly-erected Church school (St. Mary’s)
for boys in Park-street, with accommodation for 250 children, and where 128 are now
being taught. One mixed school for girls and infants in Esher-street, managed on the
principles of the British and Foreign School Society, with accommodation for 150 children,
and an average attendance of 124. Three Church schools (St. Mark's) in Kennington-
oval, with accommodation for 454 children, and an average attendance last year of 437.
The above schools show that within five minutes walk of the room which the School
Board proposes to hire, there is accommodation for 4,532 children, whilst the average
attendance has been only 2,757, showing that there is unused school accommodation for
1,775 children, a number which your Petitioners are satisfied will be found more than
enough for the children who can be brought into the schools by any system of compulsion
that may be established.
Your Petitioners would further call your attention to the fact that the above named
schools belong to different bodies of Christians, whilst some are under the direction of the
School Board, so that persons of all views can find what they wish. The same may be
said of the fees charged in them, as they vary from 1d. to 9 d. a week.
If your Petitioners were to extend their list of schools by a few hundred yards, they
would have to include the extensive schools in High-street, Hercules-buildings, China-
walk
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PRovisionAL OFDER confirmATION BILL. 55
walk (Wesleyan), Kennington-road (St. Philip's), Regency-square (St. Mark's), and
Eldon Schools, Wandsworth-road. r -
Your Petitioners pnderstand that it is the object of the Education Act of 1870 to
secure school accommodation for all children requiring it, and not to call into existence
rival schools, to be maintained out of the rates, simply to oppose existing schools. They
believe the opening of this school to be in contravention of that intention, and that,
whilst it might injure the schools under their management, it would certainly inflict a
most unnecessary charge upon the ratepayers of the metropolis.
Your Petitioners therefore pray that you will cause inquiry to be made into the facts
above alleged, and if you find them correctly stated, that you will give such orders as
may be needed to prevent the opening of an unnecessary school,
Signed by direction of the Committee, and in their behalf,
Robt. Gregory, Chairman.
2, Amen-court, St. Paul’s,
3 May 1872.
429. Duke of Cleveland.] You wrote to the Education Department :
Yes; that was sent in to the School Board.
430. Earl of Harrowby.] You had never communicated with the School
Board before ? - º
Yes; I sent that with a note from myself.
431. You had never communicated with the School Board previously
i went to the Educational Department first.
432. Lord Lawrence.] Did you subsequently go to the School Board 2
Yes. This is the letter of the Educational Department to me, dated 9th
May 1872:—
Education Department, Privy Council Office,
Downing street, London, S.W.
Reverend Sir, 9 May 1872.
I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your petition dated the 3rd instant.
I am to state that the report of the London School Board shows that there is a con-
siderable deficiency of school, accommodation in the parts of Lambeth to which your
letter relates. Their Lordships have already sanctioned the proposal of the London
School Board to supply accommodation for 100 children in the neighbourhood. When
the population is so thick, it is evident that the schools must sometimes be placed near to
one another. -
I am to suggest that your committee should send a copy of their petition to the London
School Board if they have not already done so, but my Lords do not think it would be
right for them to offer any opposition to the establishment of a Board schools in Miller's-
lame.
- I have, &c.
Rev. Canon Gregory. (signed) F. R. Sandford.
Then comes this letter from the School Board, dated 12th July 1872 —
Reverend Sir, 33, New Bridge-street, 12 July 1872.
On receipt of your second letter of 1st June, the Board referred it as they had referred
your previous letter, to the Statistical Committee. That Committee presented the
following report to the Board on 6th June :—
“ In accordance with the instructions of the Board, the Committee have considered
Canon Gregory's second letter with reference to the school proposed to be opened in
Miller's-lane. Mr. Gregory, in reply to the answer from the Board to his first letter, now
draws attention to other schools in an adjacent subdivision. The Committee have to
report that taking into account these additional schools, together with the population where
they are situated, there would still be a deficiency of accommodation, after making all
deduction, for 1,000 children. A portion of this deficiency will be met by the transfer of
the Doughty-street schools to the Board, one result of which will be that a department of
that school which had been condemned by the Government Inspector, will now be made
efficient. The Committee would add that if all the subdivisions be considered, which
Canon Gregory has mentioned in his memorial, and in his second letter to the Board, the
result will be as follows. The whole block extends roughly from Westminster Bridge-
road on the north, to Fentimam-road on the south, and from the river on the west to the
Kennington Park road on the east, and measures on the average, a mile and a quarter by
two-thirds of a mile. In this block, after comparing on the one hand, the whole number
of , children requiring elementary school accommodation, and making the necessary
deductions for the sick, for half-timers, for children too young, for temporary causes of
The Rev. Canon
Gregory.
19th May 1873.
(119.) G 4 absence,
56 MINUTEs of EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
The Rev. Canon
Gregory,
- 19th May 1873.
Mr. G. H. Croad.
*==
absence, &c., and on the other hand, the whole available school accommodation whether
existing or projected, it appears there is a deficiency of school accommodation for 3,112.
children, for which the Board have proposed to provide 2,500 school places. The Com-
3. accordingly recommend that an answer to the above effect be addressed to Canon
}regory.” -
W ; the above report was brought before the Board, its consideration was postponed
in order to await the result of an inquiry in which the Lambeth members were engaged.
That inquiry has now been completed, and the Board having received the report of the
Lambeth members as to the number of children in Subdivisions H. I. E. C. K. of Lambeth,
and having taken into account the circumstances under which the Registrar General and
the Lambeth Divisional Committee obtained their respective returns, are of opinion that
no facts have been elicited which should shake their confidence in the figures of their
Report to the Education Department.
* I am, &c.
Rev. Canon Gregory, M.A. (signed) G. H. Croad,
~ Clerk of the Board.
To that my answer was as follows:–
Dear Sir, 2, Amen Corner, 13 July 1873.
I beg to acknowledge your letter of yesterday, and I greatly regret to find that the
London School Board is resolved to adhere to its determination to waste so large an
amount of the ratepayers’ money.
This year all is theory, and the promises of the future can be made to gild the expendi-
ture; next year we shall have the opportunity of knowing the facts, and I venture to
hope that the results of the system now being pursued by the School Board will be placed
before the ratepayers before the elections of next year take place.
I am, &c. -
G. H. Croad Esq. (signed) Robert Gregory.
433. You did not apply to them to be heard yourself?
No, not to be heard.
434. Did you apply in any case to any of the individual members of the School
Board who represent Lambeth F
To none of them.
435. Is it not rather begging the question to say that we were wasting the
money of the ratepayers ; is not that the very point in dispute virtually between.
us? You say there was accommodation ; we say we believe there was not. To
say that we were wasting the ratepayers' money was surely assuming that you
were right and we were wrong. Would it not have been better to have joined
issue with us, and to have given evidence to show that we were wrong and that
you were right :
I am not going to defend my own course. I thought it was useless to apply
to you, for as I thought you had made up your minds as to what you were
going to do, I should only be wasting my time if I applied to you. I think that
my case is proved by your own experience. Where you have found that the
urgency was so extreme that you could not wait to build schools but must hire
them, and when you have hired schools in these exceptionally bad places with
all your powers of compulsion, you still have 38 per cent. of vacant places,
whereas in our schools without compulsion, we have less than that, and if you
cannot compel the children according to your theoretical idea, and not accord-
ing to your practical experience, we have already more school accommodation
in the Metropolis than is required.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr GEORGE HECTOR CROAD, is again called in ; and further
Examined.
436. Chairman.] Is there anything that you wish to say, in answer to the
evidence of Canon Gregory !
I think what is necessary to say on behalf of the School Board, in reply to
Canon Gregory's evidence, will not take me very long. With reference to the
Districts H. and I., Canon Gregory takes the figures of the Registrar General.
He shows the population to be nearly 20,000. He deducts the adults in the
workhouse, and reduces that to 19,000. He takes one-sixth of that, so as to pro-
duce a certain population requiring schools. The reply of the Board to that would
be,
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 57
be, that the one-sixth is a very good theory, as prevailing all over the country; Mr. G. H. Croad.
but that it must vary in different parts. One-sixth, when it is analysed, goes
upon the supposition that one-seventh of the population belongs to the upper
classes. The School Board contend that, in this particular block, certainly
nothing like one-seventh belongs to classes which can send their children to
schools where the fees are above 9 d. That is the first point. The second point
is, that in taking the school accommodation, Canon Gregory over-estimates it.
I think the only way in which that queastion can be settled is by asking Canon
Gregory to give an account of the specific schools he refers to, with their
accommodation. We shall then be able to compare that with the list I have
placed in the hands of the Committee, I have no doubt the discrepancy will
then become apparent.
19th May 1873.
The Reverend Canon Gregory.] I used the School Board Returns.
The Witness, If Canon Gregory will kindly hand in his list of schools,
which he says accommodate more than 3,000, we shall, by comparing the
two lists, see what are included in his which are not included in ours, and
so arrive at the discrepancy. -
437. Duke of Cleveland.] Are you putting F. together with H. and I. 7
Not at present; I am simply speaking of H. and I. ; and I have no doubt
the discrepancy can be explained. We maintain, first of all, that one-sixth of
the population is too little, because his population does not contain one-seventh
which belongs to the upper classes, and, secondly, that he is over-estimating the
school accommodation in H. and I. I then say, that when Canon Gregory goes
beyond the limits of H. and I., and calls in his girls’ and infants' schools which
lie beyond the border in F., and also the school in Doughty-street, he is bound
absolutely (and this is the very essence of the question) to call in the population
also which lies in F.
The Reverend Canon Gregory..] May I be allowed to say that I never did
call in the Doughty-street school in any way whatever,
The Witness.] Then I would say that if the girls’ and infants' schools of
St. Mary's are called in, or reckoned in the account, that we must take in
a corresponding portion of the population to balance the girls' and infants'
schools.
438. Duke of Cleveland.] In F. P
Yes; I really do not think there is anything else to which it is necessary to
reply. I can only say with reference to the want of courtesy which the Board
are supposed to have shown to Canon Gregory, the correspondence which he has
read most clearly shows that there was no such want of courtesy, and that
we were willing to go into the facts and figures in order to satisfy ourselves of
the real state of the case. Canon Gregory sent in a memorial to the Educa-
tion Department. He sent us a copy. We might have been content to leave
the Education Department to reply to the memorial which Canon Gregory
addressed to it, as he did not address us directly. We did, however, send him
an answer. To that letter he replied. That is the second letter which is
referred to in the Report he read. The previous part of the correspondence he
did not read. The whole wish of the Board has been in this case to act strictly
within their powers. Canon Gregory has stated that we started this school in
consequence of his opposition. I think it must be obvious to your Lordships that
that cannot be the case. We, first of all, proposed to build the school, and then,
of course, the opposition arose. He is inverting the order of events. Then he
said that we were unwilling, when we got further information, to revise our
decision. It must be obvious that that is not the case. We proposed to build
for 1,000. On our second and revised figures, and, without any instigation from
Canon Gregory, we at once, seeing as I pointed out just now, that there was
an excess for boys, revised our conclusions, and decided to build for only 500,
distributing the proportion in the manner which I have explained. The whole
wish of the School Board throughout has been simply to supply the deficiency
which existed, and not to come into contact with the managers of the different
schools, but to act with them as harmoniously as possible. I think I may say,
that in a great number of the parishes of London we do so. We have clergy-
(119.) H - IQ62Il
58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
men of the Church of England, and others acting as managers for our own
schools and working harmoniously together. -
439. Duke of Cleveland.] Will you have the goodness to inform the Com-
* what number of School Board Schools exist in F., or whether there are
any f
There is the Doughty-street School, which was an old ragged school with one
department efficient; that has now been transferred to the Board; its girls' and
infants' departments have been made efficient. That accounts to some extent
for the increase in the available accommodation which in fact would diminish
the necessity of building for 1,000. I may say with reference to the Doughty-
street School, that it was a ragged school where they paid nothing. They
now pay their 1 d, fee, and exactly the same class come to the school. a/
440. Is there any other School under the School, Board in that district 2
Not in F. ; but there is the other school which has been so often referred to
in H. -
441. I am not speaking of H. ; I am confining myself to F. P
No, there is no other Board School.
442. Did you ever take into consideration whether it would not be more
expedient to build a school in F. rather than place it between H. and I. :
Certainly; but the F. district has a trifling excess of accommodation rather
than otherwise.
443. Earl of Harrowby.] Including Canon Gregory's schools in the corner
We took those into F. in the original figures; that gave a slight excess of
14. I say that that slight excess of 14 has been increased by the Doughty-
street school, which has been made efficient in all its departments instead of
in only one. e
444. There is efficient school accommodation in F. taken separately :
Yes. -
445. Have you achieved that by including, as part of F., Canon Gregory's
school in the corner ? -
Yes.
446. You will not allow those to be counted twice over ; to be counted for the
benefit of H. and I., as well as F. :
No.
447. Duke of Cleveland.] You include them in F. entirely 2
Yes. -
448. Therefore, including them in F., you consider there is abundant school
accommodation in F., but that there is not school accommodation in H. and I. 2
That is so.
449. You therefore propose that school in H. and I. rather than in F.
Yes; because there is a deficiency in H. and I. and not in F.
450. Earl of Harrowby.] In Canon Gregory's calculation, does he adopt
those schools which you adopt for F. : z'
Canon Gregory said, that he was willing to take one-half.
451. If you allow him that basis for calculation, you must take off that half
of the corresponding schools which are now put to the credit of F. :
Exactly.
452. Then you will have a deficiency elsewhere !
Yes.
453. Duke of Cleveland.] What are the schools which supply the school
accommodation in F.; are they Canon Gregory's Schools, or British and
Foreign Schools under other denominations?
These are Canon Gregory's (referring to the Plans). These are the British
and Foreign Schools; this is a small adventure school, consisting only of
about 30 children; this is another adventure school, consisting of about 20
scholars; this is a small infant school attached to the Church of St. Mary,
with
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PRovisionAL or DER confirmATION BILL. 59
with accommodation for only 80; and lastly, this is a special school, founded
200 years ago, by Archbishop Tenison.
454. Do those schools supply the whole of the population of F., because I
see the population is about 10,000 : - -
That is an estimate. Taking the population as 10,000, the schools will be
in excess of what is required.
455. Earl of Harrowby.] If you take Canon Gregory's, and appropriate
half of those schools, what difference will that make in the respective
calculations?
All the other schools would bring in between 300 and 400, and half the re-
* Schools. We have certainly got quite margin enough to meet that in
. and I.
456. That would so far represent F. 7
Yes.
457. Duke of Cleveland.] It would represent F. by about 2002
Yes.
458. What is the whole number in the schools?
About 1,600, taking Archbishop Tenison's.
459. Lord Lawrence.] There are seven schools in F. :
Yes; but two are poor adventure schools, with only 20 or 30 childen each in
them.
460. Lord Beauchamp.] I understood you to say that there was a very dense
population in F. P
Yes; East-street, which is the northern boundary, I consider a very densely
populated district.
461. Is Regent-street densely populated?
It is moderately populated.
462. I see between the school No. 19, which is a British and Foreign School,
and the boundary of the district, there is no school whatever?
There is no school whatever. It is more populous than appears on the map.
Some of the thoroughfares are not marked on the map.
463. If the eastern part of F. is densely populated, would it not be more
consonant with common sense to put a school there, where there is no school,
rather than interfere with the existing arrangement of H. and I. in favour
of F :
F. has got an excess.
464. Duke of Cleveland.] Have you already purchased a site for the pro-
posed school '!
Some of the vendors are willing to sell ; but it so happens that the free-
holder is a lunatic. It is necessary, therefore, that compulsory powers should
be obtained.
465. You have entered into no positive engagement?
No ; the fact is (perhaps it was unfortunate that the Report was so drawn)
that we made our deductions in two categories. We make certain deductions
in Appendix No. 1, and the last deduction is in Appendix No. 3. If we had put
them all together, the thing would have been perfectly clear. What we say is,
that when the ordinary schools are talked of as having 33 per cent. of absences,
you are including a great portion of the absences which we have already dis-
counted in Appendix No. 1. -
466. You have deducted in Appendix No. 1 on the assumption that they
would not be on the roll of the school 3
No, our enumerators, in going round to ascertain from a parent whether the
child was attending the school, if he got his name on the roll of the school,
the parent would consider him as attending, however irregular he might be.
Therefore there are on the rolls of the schools a great many children who come
under these different categories.
Mr. G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
(119.) H 2 467. Duke
60 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE selecT COMMITTEE on
Mr. G. H. Croad,
19th May 1873.
smazººmsºmºus
467. Duke of Cleveland.] Your 5-09 really refers to the temporary ab-
sences?
Quite so, such as “minding the baby.” If, making all these deductions, we
can come to the conclusion that it was only necessary to build for something less
than one in seven, is not that a proof that we have made our deductions fairly 2
468. Earl of Harrowby..] ‘Is that one in seven the actual calculation made for
School Boards all over the country
No, one in six.
469. Earl Beauchamp.] The numbers that you have given us are 35,000 on
the rolls of the Board schools; the “too young " cannot be in that ?
No.
470. The “ disabled ” cannot be in that P
No. •.
471. And a large proportion of the “ill" cannot be in that?
No ; every one of those points must be at once conceded; we do not claim
those; they are not in both accounts. What are in both accounts are the workers,
those in the country, and those who have been ill for more than three weeks.
472. I am dealing with the period for 12 weeks ending 29th March 1873;
those instructions were given in December 2
No ; it was only a few weeks ago that we finally agreed to our instructions to
teachers; I thought you were referring to the figures in last December; these
instructions to teachers were issued in a code, which has not been printed more
than three or four weeks, so that our rolls are not carefully sifted.
473. But, still, the 5 per cent. was a mere estimate 2
We held it to be a matter of fact.
474. The number, 5 per cent., to be deducted from temporary absences is
a matter of estimate ; but the fact shows that the actual absences from the
Board schools amount to a very much larger sum, being 35 per cent. *
Yes.
475. Duke of Cleveland.] You have taken that into account P
Yes, that is what we say.
476. Earl Beauchamp.] The total number of children on the rolls will not
include every child within the area of these Board schools 2
Of course not. There are, still, a certain number of children not on the
rolls. Every single cause of absence is taken into account.
477. What does that amount to ?
Seventeen per cent.
478. These are picked schools?
We took numerous schools, so that we might get the statistics with regard to
the children as accurate as possible.
479. There is the school of the Holy Trinity, Cloudesby-street, Finsbury,
where the number of children in attendance was 2,069, number absent 816 °
That is adding together the figures of each of the five days in the week.
480. What per-centage is that?
That is between 30 and 40 per cent.
481. Then take St. Giles's National Schools 7
With all due deference, would it not be more satisfactory to take the aggre-
gate of the whole 30, which gives 17 per cent., because, of course, we shall be
able to pick out something considerably under 17 per cent., to balance the cases
over 17 per cent., if we take them separately. I think we should judge of the
whole 30 as a body. -
482. I will take Finsbury, Greenwich, Lambeth, and Tower Hamlets 2
Our position is, that if in good schools we can reach such an amount of
attendance as that, only 17 per cent. is absent from all causes, in our Board
schools we may hope by and by to approximate to that; 17 per cent. com-
prises both permanent and temporary causes. I may say, in all frankness, that
I do not think that 5 per cent, is sufficient. That is only an idea at present
f at
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION. BILL. 6I
at which to aim. I think at present from 10 to 15' per cent. is what we
should put.
483. Earl of Harrowby..] You are under an obligation to provide not for the
average attendance, but the maximum attendance ... r
That is a very strong point indeed.
484. You may have a very great variation between the maximum and the
minimum, but you are obliged to provide for a large maximum ?
Yes.
485. Earl Beauchamp.] What would be the difference between the absence of
5 per cent. and 15 per cent.
I think it would subtract still further 47,800 from the total of the
metropolis. -
486. If the 15 per cent. be allowed instead of 5 per cent., you think there
should be an addition of 47,800 to the deductions 7
Yes. te
487. Lord Lawrence.] That is to say, you take a further 10 per cent. :
I have taken 10 per cent, in addition to the 5 per cent. There is one further
point which I may just allude to ; Canon Gregory has referred to certain figures
supplied to him by the Registrar General. We are perfectly prepared to submit
our figures to some expert, who may go into them, and see what the fact
really is.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
ordered That the Committee be adjourned to Friday next, Eleven o'clock.
- Mr, G. H. Croad.
19th May 1873.
(119.) H 3
( 63 )
Die Veneris, 23 Mail 1873.
Earl BEAUCHAMP.
Duke of CLEVELAND.
Wiscount EveRSLEY.
^
PR E S E N T :
Lord KESTEVEN.
Lord LAWRENCE.
Lord Bishop of WINCHESTER.
WISCOUNT EVERSLEY, IN THE CHAIR.
[The following Papers are handed in by Mr. Croad, and ordered by the
Committee to be inserted on the Minutes :—]
- *** * **-.
* -. +
tº . .
. . . ; ; ;
3.
23rd May 1873.
STATEMENT, showing the Aver AGE ATTENDANCE at all the ScHools in Sub-divisions F., H., and I., of
Lambeth, in the Spring
of 1871, Last Quarter of 1872, and First Quarter of 1873.

;:
# Actual Attendance, Average Attendance. Average Attendance,
Tº as per Report of Bye-laws Committee, Quarter ended
Sub-Division. S C H O O L. 3. Blue Book, Spring 1871. 25 December 1872. 25 March 1873.
H
© -
Q)
3 Boys. Girls. Infants. Total. Boys. Girls. Infants. | Total. Boys. Girls. | Infants. Total.
F. George-street, British - - || 356 205 * * 205 || 240 -*. - 240 230 tº- &ºme 230
Doughty-street tº- - - || 575 || 259 -. * 259 || 231 179 107 || 517 | 219 | 166 104 || 489
St. Mary-the-Less - - - | 404 || 138 || 115 -- 253 | – | 121 134 255 | – || 116 122 || 238
Archdeacon Tenison’s - - || 324 - 189 - 189 º- 160 - 160 - 164 tº- 164
St. Mary’s (Infant's) - - | 84 || 38 80 *- II8 || – - 151 | 151 || – * 125 | 125
Miss Green’s - g- - tº º 32 11 18 - 29 || - Information incorrect - - 40 tº-e 40
- Mixed.
Regent House Academy - - 35 58 - tº- 58 =º 52 - 52 50 9 º 59
1,810 || – --> — | 1,111 || - dº — 1,375 || – tº- – | 1,345
} Less Board Schools - 258 - i- * 230
1,117 | – gº – 1,115
- Mixed.
H. St. Paul’s - - - - 614 180 230 - 410 || 107 - 194 || 301 *: 76 69 268
, , ſ Upper - - - ſ 86 || – - } 86 | . – tº-
st Peter's (; . . . ) is ºn us | – || 369|{ij} | ps go Jº |{1} | 103 87 |} 397
M.
St. Saviour’s, Salamanca - - 260 | 100 102 ºr- 202 sº 182 - 182 tº- 79 112 || 19.1
Wesleyan, Vauxhall-walk - 262 64 69 - 133 24 58 53 || 135 21 55 52 | 128
St. Anne’s, Vauxhall • - || 412 || 38 81 - I 19 || 46 || 44 50 || 140 || 64 || 59 41 | 164
Miller's-lane - - - - || 193 || – - - – 135 | – -- 135 | 172 - º 172
I. Esher-street, British - - 162 43 63 - 106 || 148 - - 148 - 135 tº-e 135
St. Mary-the-Less (Boys), Park- 246 - - - 162 -- - 162 162 - * 162
Street.
Mrs. Stokes - tºº - tº- 31 7 12 - 19 12 14 - 26 II 12 sº 23
H. and I. º - - - 2,961 - - – 1,358 || – - – | 1,644 == — 1,640
Iless Increase in Board Schools - 135 - - * 172
1,509 - tº- cº- 1,468
H., I., and F. - wº- G- dº 4,771 cº- - * 2,469 * tº- - 3,019 º º – |2,985
Less Increase of Board Schools - || 393 E- º 402
2,626 - sº gº 2,583

(119.) H 4
sº
3.
gº ºft.* * , . . . . . . . . . -- *
... ;--- . -
§
...*:::
*
&
64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT committee on
*r
º.
-
º 23rd May 1873.
ACCOMMODATION IN EFFICIENT ScHools.
SUB-Divisions F., H., and I., of LAMBETH.
à: Corrected
Sub-Division. NAME of ScHool. ation from REMARKs.
*Pºº Figures, 1873.
Easter 1872. 2
F. George-street, British, George-street - - 346 356
Lambeth Ragged, Doughty-street - * tº * 270 575 Now a Board School; the
- inefficient departments
St. Mary-the-Less, National, Princes-road - 330 made efficient.
} 404
(Projected enlargement) tº gº 72
Archdeacon Tenison's (Girls) 18, High- 323 324
Street.
St. Mary's (Infant), 10, High-street - - 84 84
Miss Green, 7, Paradise-street - - - 29 32
Regent House Academy (Mr. H. Wilks), 52 35
80, Regent-street, Kennington.
Emanuel, National (Infant), Tracey-street - --> - smºº
Projected - º * > * > tº e 432 sº - | Not carried out.
1,638 1,810
H. St. Paul’s, National, Vauxhall-walk - - 606 614
St. Peter's, National, Miller's-lane - º 798 781
Wesleyan, Day, Vauxhall-walk - - - 282 262
y St. Anne's, Roman Catholic, Vauxhall-walk 266
} 412
(Projected enlargement) gº ºs 750
St. Saviour’s, Salamanca, Vauxhall-walk - 252 260
Princes-street Ragged, Free, 5, Princes- 114 tº - || Closed.
- Street.
St. Saviour's (Infant), Barrett-street - gº 57 gº - || Closed.
2,525 2,329
I. Kennington, British, Esher-street - tº 201 - 162
Mrs. Stokes, 42. Upper Kennington-lane - 26 31.
St. Mary-the-Less, National (Boys), Park- || - $º 246
street. *
227 439
H, and I. gº tº ºg tº º TOTAL - - - 2,752 2,768
H., I., and F. - tº tºº gº * F TOTAL - - - 4,300 4,578

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 65
The Rev. THOMAS SHARPE, is called in; and Examined, as follows: Rev. T. Sharpe.
488. Lord Lawrence.] You are a Clergyman of the Church of England 2 23rd May 1873.
Yes.
489. And are connected with the Education Department :
I am inspector of the Education Department for the Lambeth district.
490. Have all the schools in the Lambeth district come under your
notice 2
Yes, for the last three years.
491. Have you passed them all, whether with reference to the certificated
masters or not *
Yes. We were told to examine into the efficiency of all schools which chose
to present themselves. I have examined into all the efficient or semi-efficient
schools in the district of Lambeth.
492. You reported the number of the scholars in the efficient schools to the
London School Board 2
No; I believe they collected those statistics themselves.
493. Can you state whether the London School Board acted under the
direction of the Education Department, or have they any discretion of their
own 7
They have a discretion of their own; London was treated differently to other
places. There are three points with regard to schools which inspectors gene-
rally were allowed to ascertain, namely, the sufficiency, the efficiency, and the
suitability of the schools. In London we were told to disregard the suitability
and sufficiency, to consider the efficiency only.
494. With reference to the schools in Lambeth, you know the objection
which has been raised to the site of that particular school in Block H.
and I. 7
I do.
495. Have you examined all the schools in H. and I.
Yes, all those which presented themselves; all those which were inspected,
or voluntarily presented themselves.
496. And also in F. :
Yes.
497. Will you tell the Committee what is the state of the schools in that part
of London :
We divide them all into efficient and non-efficient; if we once pass them as
efficient we put all into the same category.
498. What number of scholars did you report 2
I have not brought the figures with me.
499. There are a certain number of denominational schools in H. and I.
Yes.
5oo. But you do not know what number 2
I did not know exactly what statistics to be prepared with.
501. Is it the case that you inspected, on behalf of the Educational Depart-
ment, Schools in the southern districts, including Lambeth, which were returned
to the Board as affording elementary education, which were not under Govern-
ment inspection ?
With the exception of Southwark.
502. Did you also inspect the semi-efficient Schools, which the Board con-
sidered had made themselves efficient
With the help of my inspector of returns.
503. What was the standard which the scholars in those semi-efficient schools
were expected to come up to ; in fact, what was the standard which efficient
schools were expected to come up to ?
(119.) I That
66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. T. Sharpe.
23rd May 1873.
That the upper scholars above 10 years of age should at least pass in simple
multiplication; this is the standard to which they were all examined:–
*ºmºmº Standard I. (1870). Standard I, (1871) Standard II. (1871).
Reading - Narrative in monosylla- || One of the narratives | A short paragraph from
bles. next in order after an elementary reading
monosyllables in an book. -
elementary reading
book used in the
School.
Writing - Form on black-board | Copy in manuscript | A sentence from the
or slate, from dicta- character a line of same book, slowly
tion, letters, capital print, and write from read once, and then
and small, manu- dictation a few com- dictated in single
script. mon words. words.
Arithmetic - Form on black-board | Simple addition and | The multiplication table,
or slate, from dicta-
tion, figures up to 20;
name at sight figures
up to 20: add and
subtract figures up to
subtraction of num-
bers of not more than
four figures, and the
multiplication table, to
multiplication by six.
and any simple rule
as far as division.
10; orally, from ex-
amples on black-
board.
504. Is there any other point worth noticing as regards the standard required
beyond that of multiplication ?
That was the real test of the examination. If the teacher could not teach
simple multiplication, and the children could not pass in this and other simpler
tests, we declared them inefficient for examination. There was another test with
reference to the premises, as to whether they were suitable and provided with
privy accommodation and other things.
595. Did you examine the different sites which were proposed by the Board?
Yes, I went round them all.
506. Did you examine the Albion Cottage site 7
Yes.
507. What was your opinion on examining that site P
I reported to the Department, first, that I thought it too near Block H., and
that it was on the wrong side of the boundary.
508. Then subsequently did you modify that opinion ?
On being furnished with fresh statistics by the School Board, which reversed
the previous statistics they had given me, I found that I had taken down the
numbers wrong. The numbers, as given to me at first, were in Block H. a
deficiency of 468, in Block I. 710, and the School Board proposed to put a school
in Block H. I suggested that it should be carried up to I., near New-street. I
thought it better to keep further away from the other schools in Block H. I
went afterwards to the School Board, and M. Croad gave me other statistics,
viz., that by closing one school and opening another, the deficiency in Block
H. was greater; they found that it was 664, and in Block I. it was 490. Another
school in I. had been opened in Park-street; a semi-efficient school in H. had
been closed because a teacher had gone away.
509. You mean that it had been closed by the manager ?
Yes.
510. Duke of Cleveland.] Was that a denominational school '!
Yes. -
511. Lord Lawrence.] The school which has been opened in I. is also a
denominational school, is it not 2
Yes,
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 67
Yes, that is near Kennington-lane; Mr. Croad also told me that they found
the deficiency was chiefly for infants, and not for boys and girls, as I knew
before. There was comparatively little need of schools in either H. or I. for
girls; none for boys.
Mr. Croad.] Perhaps I may be allowed to state that the School Board
say that there is an excess for boys of 12. --
The Witness.] It will be greater than that. What the School Board
proposed was, that there should be a large school for infants with a smaller
department for boys and girls, which would not injure the existing schools
in the neighbourhood.
512. Duke of Cleveland.] That is principally an infant school?
Yes, I think it is the case that all over London infant schools are chiefly
wanted. \
513. Lord Lawrence..] Was it your final conclusion that the site which was
selected was the best site 2
I should have preferred it in New-street, but the statistical clerk told me that
it was impossible to get a site there, and as it was only for infants, and a few
girls and boys, I thought it could not much injure the existing elementary
accommodation, and I so reported to the Department.
514. Your final conclusion was, that that was the best site available
I should not say the very best possible site, but I think the best available
site. -
515. Where would you have put it 2
I should have put it in New-street.
516. Why did you not suggest to the Board to put it in New-street?
It was chiefly for infants. The Board had abandoned the scheme of building
for 1,200, and were going to build chiefly for infants. I thought it would do
for this neighbourhood; the nearest infant School is a Wesleyan School
in H.
517. But bearing in mind that the final arrangement of the Board was to
build for 300 infants, 100 girls, and 100 boys, do you still consider that a better
site for H. and I. might be found, than the one eventually fixed on ?
It is not of any very great consequence. I should put it on the other side of
this boundary line (referring to the Map), but it was of comparatively small con-
sequence, therefore it was not wise to interfere.
518. If you went further to the east, would that interfere with those
schools
No ; this is a cul de sac: they could not get out. There is a school in Esher-
street; you would not have interfered with that ; it would be somewhere in
New-street.
519. You consider that if that site had been selected, it would not have in-
terfered with those schools to the east 2
No, it could not, because there is no way out.
520. Is there any other site which you can suggest in F. which would have
been equally suitable, or nearly equally suitable, with the site that we have chosen,
or the site which you suggest in I. P
I did not raise that question at all. The proposed school is only for infants;
you cannot expect infants to travel far.
521. For what part of H. and I. is accommodation principally required :
To the south of H. is most densely crowded, but all these streets are very
densely populated on both sides of Vauxhall-street.
522. Earl Beauchamp.] There is only adequate accommodation for them
in H. 7
There is more than adequate accommodation for the boys.
523. Lord Lawrence.] Are there many children who come from the south of
H. to the infant school, or would more come from I. 2
I should have anticipated their coming from these streets (referring to the
\
Rev. T. Sharpe.
23rd May 1873.
(119.) I 2 Map),
68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON .
: wºrn ºv, “ . . .
£ev. T. Sharpe.
23rd May 1873.
Map), viz., the streets between New-street and Vauxhall-street. Infants
ji travel far. I should have anticipated their coming from streets in that
ocality.
524. Chairman.] Do you think a site near the letter I. would be more con-
venient for infants to reach at any time? - s
I should have said more convenient.
525. Lord Lawrence..] You think it would be more convenient if the site
were in I. Ž
I should think so.
526. Are you aware what would be the relative cost of the site on the spot
the Board has selected compared with the one on the spot which you have
selected 7
I should have thought this would have been the cheaper, New-street being
off the main street (referring to the Plan).
527. Suppose that site was a good deal dearer, would then the relative
advantage of putting these schools in I. be sufficient to compensate for the
larger cost 2
I should always put the infant schools as near to the infants as possible, even
at a larger cost.
528. Do you know the character of the population to the east 2
Yes. -
529. Would their children come under the 9 d. rate, or would they, generally
speaking, be children who go to schools above the 9 d. schools :
The nearer you get to the higher classes, I should think, they would go to the
higher schools; the part about Regent-street is of a very low character.
530. Duke of Cleveland.] Those are small schools (referring to the Map)?
Yes; I just passed them, because I did not wish them to be extinguished at
once. Those two only just passed the standard.
531. Lord Lawrence..] Is changing this site quite out of the question
You would not meet the necessities of the infants, as far I see ; if you are to
build for infants you must bring the schools close to them.
532, It must be either where you say, or where the Board have put them
If you are going to build for infants only.
533. Infants and girls :
And boys you are going to build for now ; there are girls and boys.
534. The Board have got a temporary school in Miller's-lane P
Yes. -
535. As I understand, there are 170 boys attending that school P
Yes.
536. Of course those would be absorbed in this new school?
Those are excluded so as to meet the excess of 12.
537. Chairman.] Do you intend to break up the Miller's-lane School?
Yes.
538. Lord Lawrence.] That school is temporary, is it not :
Yes.
539. (To Mr. Croad.) Am I right in saying that the School Board are going
to break up the school in Miller's-lane *
Mr. Croad.] Unquestionably, my Lord.
The Witness (to Mr. Croad).] How do you get the excess of 12?
Mr. Croad.] When we get the excess, we do not count Miller's-lane
School, because we consider that Miller's-lane School will be part of the
500. The boys will be dispersed and go into other schools; 100 of them
will go into the new school. -
The
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 69
A
The Witness.] You say that there is an excess of 12; is that including
the Miller's-lane School P - -
Mr. Croad.] No, we shall not include Miller's-lane School.
The Witness.] Then that will make an excess of 200 in that block.
Mr. Croad.] Yes.
Duke of Cleveland.] It will be an excess of 200 if you take the Miller's-
lane School.
Mr. Croad.] We do not take the Miller's-lane School; we take the
new site.
Duke of Cleveland.] You are going to abolish the Miller's-lane School?
Mr. Croad.] Yes.
The Witness.] Then that must be taken off the general calculation. *.
Earl Beauchamp (to Mr. Croad).] Did Miller's-lane School exist when
the statistics were drawn up on which the Report of March 1872 was
based ?
Mr. Croad.] No, my Lord, because when we obtained the first figures
we did not know the relative accommodation for girls and infants.
Earl Beauchamp.] When the statistics were made the Miller's-lane
School did not exist, but it it has been added to those districts
since.
Mr. Croad.] As a temporary school to feed the new schools.
Duke of Cleveland.] You mean the new proposed schools?
Mr. Croad.] Yes.
540. Duke of Cleveland (to the Witness).] Do you not think it almost a
necessity that the girls' school and the infant school should be together
Certainly, as far as possible.
541. Have you found by experience that the infants do not go to school
unless the school is near to them, on account of the mothers very often not
being able to bring them ?
Yes.
542. Therefore it is a matter of necessity if there is to be an infant school that
it should be together with, or contiguous to, the girls' school?
Yes.
543. Lord Lawrence.] Admitting that necessity, or at any rate the very great
advantage of having a girls' school and an infant school together, bearing in
mind therefore that we ought to arrange for the girls, do you still think the
site you have indicated a better one than the site which the Board have
chosen 7
Yes, I think so; if it is built for the infants in that neighbourhood. The
girls can travel further than the infants if necessary, if there must be a girls'
School at all.
544. Duke of Cleveland.] Is not the other part of H. a very densely popu-
lated district 2
Yes. -
545. Are there not a great many children in H., of the infant class :
Yes, a great many.
546. Then, supposing the site were altered from H. to I., those infants would
have to travel from H. to the densely populated district in I.
I should expect to find these 300 infants, for whom they build on this part,
come to the school (referring to the Plan). There are a number of small
Streets running from the south to Vauxhall-street.
547. Where would the infants be provided for
There is a large infant school in Salamanca; there is another large school in
Rev. T. Sharpe.
23rd May 1873,
wrººm”
(119.) I 3 Vauxhall
70 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. T. Sharpe.
23rd May 1873.
Vauxhall Walk, and a Roman Catholic school called St. Ann's ; there is also a
large school here (pointing it out on the Map).
548. Those all have infant children attending them P
Yes, all the five.
549. Lord Lawrence.] Are a large number of the children in H. Roman
Catholic children?
Roman Catholic children travel longer distances than other children; they
are compelled by their priests to go to their own schools, and I find they travel
longer distances. They are not necessarily living in this block. The Roman
Catholic school, for some unexplained reason, went down very much last
year.
550. Are most of the children in H. Roman Catholics
That is a question, which I cannot answer.
551. Duke of Cleveland.] Who inspects the Roman Catholic school?
I inspect that also.
552. Earl Beauchamp.] Have you had any experience as a School manager,
before you became an inspector of schools :
I have been 17 years an inspector.
553. Have you made any calculation at all with regard to the average number
of children enrolled on the books of the school 2
I have reported that I always expect one-eighth to be absent from causes
which could not be prevented; and another eighth I found were liable to
be absent in the lower class of Schools, making one-fourth, or 25 per cent.
That is in the lower class; not the better class of schools.
554. Where has your experience, as inspector, chiefly been 2
In the manufacturing districts of Yorkshire and London.
555. Duke of Cleveland.] You say that 25 per cent. are absent
Yes; in the lower schools.
556. You mean the penny schools :
Yes; we have very few penny schools left now.
557. Was not the Salamanca school a penny School?
Yes.
558. Earl Beauchamp.] What are the fees in the Board's school 7
In Miller's-lane School the fee is I d.
559. Then I suppose the Board school which is about to be established is
intended to teach the very class of whom you say, according to your own expe-
rience, you may reckon safely as being ordinarily absent to the extent of 25
per cent.
I did not say that we could reckon safely that number as being absent.
560. Upon the average 2
Yes.
561. They are not the same children who are absent; if one child is away
another is there, I presume *
I see, by the last Report of the School Board, that 60 per cent. are mentioned
as being present, and 40 per cent. absent. I am told that the number in the
Lambeth School is 33 per cent. absent.
562. To what Report are you referring
I am referring to a Paper lately issued by the School Board as regards their
schools.
Mr. Croad.] Mr. Macgregor stated that it was 40 per cent., but it will
be found to be actually 38 per cent. That requires explanation ; 33 per
cent. is more nearly the number.
563. Earl Beauchamp.] The class of children attending the school of which
25 per cent. are absent are children who have been paying, at all events, their
school
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 7 I
school fees, and are certainly not of a lower class than the Board are principally Rev. T. Sharpe. ,
tapping at the present time * -
O.
23rd May 1873.
564. Therefore you have no reason to assume that the attendance of the
class to be tapped is greater than in the case of the children who have been
paying fees, whose absences have amounted to 25 per cent. *
I think not. *
565. If that is the case, and you were told that the Board, in making their
calculations as to the accommodation required throughout the metropolis, had
only allowed for an absence of 5 per cent, you would think that a great amount
of accommodation was about to be provided more than was required by what
your actual experience shows you would be necessary
Have the Board any discretion in the matter 2
566. Whether they have or have not is another question; if you were told
that the Board had only deducted 5 per cent., would you not consider accom-
modation in accordance with that calculation would be more than was actually
required under the circumstances of the case?
I should not take that into consideration. We were told to take the actual
statistics of children who ought to be at school.
567. Is it your opinion that eight feet ought to be provided for every child
within the limit of the metropolitan area
Those are our orders.
568. That is your interpretation of the Act 2
Yes. -
569. Then if the London School Board had made any deduction from that,
they are not acting under the terms of the Act, as you understand it?
They have modified it themselves.
570. If they have modified it themselves they have modified it on their own
responsibility ?
Yes, I suppose so.
571. Then it becomes entirely a question as to the discretion they have
exercised, whether the deduction of 5 per cent. corresponds with the require-
ments of the case or not *
In the statistics furnished to us there were 130,000 children to be provided
for, and the Board only propose to build for 100,600.
572. 130,000 was the number of children between 3 and 13 who were not
attending school '!
Yes.
573. I was asking you as regards your experience of scholars actually
enrolled on the books of the school, and not of the number of children in a given
area 3
When those figures were sent to me, I thought 100,600 a reasonable provi-
sion, allowing for all sorts of deductions, to begin with. When the School
Board have drawn all these children into their schools they might then build
further schools, if necessary.
574. If you make a deduction of 33 per cent. as respects the 100,600 children
for whom accommodation is not forthcoming in existing schools, on the sup-
position that every place now vacant in all the other schools is filled, you make
no deduction whatever for those absent in respect of the existing efficient
schools :
I should only deduct 1-8th, not 33 per cent.
575. Then you think it would not be complying with the terms of the Act,
which enacts that you shall provide eight square feet for every child within the
metropolitan area º .
I have no discretion in the matter.
576. Lord Lawrence. In providing for less than what may be necessary is
One thing, and exercising a discretion, provided the Schools are up to the mark,
(119.) I 4 is
72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. T. Sharpe.
tºmmemº
23rd May 1873.
is another thing; that is to say, if you provide for less than may be wanted,
you can always add afterwards?
That is my view.
577. Earl Beauchamp.] If you provide too much accommodation, a portion of
it is either useless, or you have to undersell existing schools?
That is quite true.
578. Lord Lawrence..] In point of fact, is it in your opinion or not, a better
arrangement to provide for what may be considered less than the number of
children who may eventually go to school, or do you think, in compliance with
the Act, you are bound at once to supply the deficiency which may be
apparent
The best plan will be to supply accommodation as you are likely to fill it,
the exercise of your compulsory powers ought to go on pari passu with your
building.
579. Earl Beauchamp.] If you were told that there were 96,000 places
vacant in the efficient Schools of the metropolis, in your judgment, ought the
first steps to be taken to fill those places, or to to provide 96,000 more places
for other children P
We have no discretion in the matter.
580. As an inspector have you had occasion at all to report to the Educa-
tion Department as to the propriety of the imaginary lines, which had been
drawn to form sub-divisions 7
I reported that I thought they were only useful for enumeration; in some cases
it depends on a boundary line. The Kennington-road would be a very good
boundary line; Vauxhall-street is useless, except for the purpose of enume-
ration.
581. Duke of Cleveland.] Between H. and I. Ž
Yes.
582. Earl Beauchamp.] Take the case of Princes-road, which is the boundary
of the old ecclesiastical parish of St. Mary-the-Less, with the exception of the
Church and schools, which are in Block F. ; do you consider that the old edu-
cational arrangements, which have existed more or less during the last 40
years, ought to be disregarded in favour of an imaginary line like that drawn
on Princes-road 2
I should not disregard them myself.
583. After the enumeration, when you came to deal with the existing defi-
ciency, you would not yourself have ignored the fact, that for the last 40 years
the schools just north of Princes-road have been connected with the educa-
tional requirements of H. and I., you would have taken that into account 2
I should have ignored that altogether, except for the purpose of enumeration.
584. Lord Lawrence.] On the other hand, in making your selection of sites,
would you or would you not consider the simple question of the use of the
locality, or would you not bear in mind the wants of the adjacent block, so as
to dovetail your arrangements one with the other 2
Certainly.
585. Earl Beauchamp.] Do you consider that the Education Act was
intended to provide an entirely new system, that is, that the metropolis was
to be redivided according to imaginary lines, or that existing arrangements or
existing schools were to be taken into account
Do you mean the ecclesiastical arrangements P
586. I did not refer to the ecclesiastical arrangements, I referred to the
existing arrangements 2
Unless you mean the ecclesiastical arrangements, I do not know what other
arrangements there would be ; there would be the arrangements of the
parishes.
587. But, supposing, within a certain district, children had been for many
years in the habit of attending a Wesleyan school, and an imaginary line was
drawn which shut off a portion of the children from the school, do you not
think
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 73
think that it would be unwise to ignore the fact, that the habit had grown up
of the children attending this particular school, although the imaginary line
drawn for the purpose of enumeration might separate them from the schools
they had been in the habit of frequenting 2
I should only consider those lines for the purpose of enumeration in certain
CàS6S.
588. Is there not a very large amount of surplus space in all the existing
schools within Block H. and I. 3 i
I think there is in St. Peter's Infant School a certain amount of accommoda–
tion; the boys' school is filled and the girls' school is fairly filled, but the infant
school is not filled.
589. Do you consider the statement accurate, that there was an average
surplus accommodation at St. Peter's of 82?
Does that mean the infant school, or all put together.
590. The whole
I should think there must be 82. The Rev. Canon Gregory informs me that
it is for infants only. The boys' school is filled to overflowing.
591. May I take it, according to your experience, that there are 34 average
vacancies at St. Paul's Schools P
I cannot say.
592. Taking all the schools that are returned as efficient, it does not appear
to me to be a statement at all incredible that there are 324 average
vacancies 2 -
May I ask you to give me the list of the others?
593. St. Peter's 34, St. Paul's 34, Salamanca schools 18, St. Mary's 42, the
Wesleyan school in Vauxhall Walk, 55, and the Roman Catholic schools, 93 :
I think those are all fair, with the exception of the Roman Catholic school,
which is filled up again. It was empty last summer.
The Rev. Canon Gregory..] Those were the figures on the 25th
April.
The Witness.] I think that would be a fair proportion.
594. Earl Beauchamp.] Do you know at all where the children have come
from who attend the Miller's-lane School. Are they gutter children 2
I made a point of inquiring from what schools they have come to the Board
school. I do not think any large proportion was drawn from the neighbouring
schools.
595. I asked you whether they are gutter children
How am I to know a gutter child 2
596. Have they been under education before ?
The result of my examination the other day was that two-thirds were placed
in the lowest standard.
597. What was the age of those children?
They varied from 7 to 11 years of age. I cannot give you the exact number.
Two-thirds of the scholars were placed at the lowest standard that was possible
for examination.
598. When was the Doughty School opened?
A year ago, as near as possible this month.
Mr. Croad.] Perhaps it might be convenient to the Committee if I men-
tioned that the Doughty-street School is a school which was transferred to
the Board. It has been in existence a long time. One part, namely, the
boys, was efficient, and the other parts were inefficient. By being trans-
ferred to the Board the two inefficient parts have been made efficient.
599. Earl Beauchamp (to the JWitness).] When did the Board take it over ?
About a year ago.
Rev. T. Sharpe.
23rd May 1873.
(119.) K 6oo. Do
74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. Tº Shárpe.
-3rd May 1873.
600. Do you know at all whether the Doughty-street School, since it has
been, transferred to the Board, had any effect whatever Ón the other infant
schools in the neighbourhood * -
It diminished the attendance at Salamanca School at first, but Salamanca
School has since filled up again. -
601. Has it had any effect upon St. Paul's Schools?
I should think very little indeed : they are too distant.
602. Then any alteration in St. Paul's School would be the effect of the
Miller's-lane School? -
Yes.
603. Do you know at all whether the attendance at St. Paul's School in the
first quarter after the opening of the Miller's-lane School and the Doughty-
street School, which were taken over by the Board, fell in one quarter 30, in
the second quarter 45, in the third quarter 75, and in the fourth 107 3
The question is, whether that fourth quarter was coincident with the change
of masters. There was a change in the masters at that time. They had an
inferior master in the school. I cannot say how much of that fall was
dependent on that.
º 604. To revert to the existing surplus accommodation at St. Peter's School,
St. Paul's School, Salamanca School, and the Roman Catholic School, taking it
at 324, with this excessive accommodation do you think there is still more room
indeed for infants :
Three hundred and twenty-four vacant places?
605. Yes?
The deficiency is 1,162 in the two Blocks, H. and I., according to the
corrected list.
606. That is arrived at from actual enumeration; it takes no account what-
ever of the deductions for absentees?
Yes; it would allow 800 still to be provided for, even deducting those 300
vacant places.
607. How are the Board schools conducted?
Do you mean as to efficiency *
608. Who are the managers of the Board schools?
They are selected by the divisional committees; they are drawn from all
classes.
609. Do you find them giving the same attention to that which is given in
existing efficient schools?
No, I do not think they do.
61 O. You do not find that the managers of the Board schools take the same
interest in the management and conduct of the schools as was the case with the
managers in schools existing before the Act was passed ?
It is very difficult in some Board schools to get a single manager to attend on
the day of inspection, or supply one with information.
611. As regards the previously existing schools, you find no difficulty whatever
in getting information from the managers ?
There is always some manager present.
612. Have you been able to form any theory as to the comparative amount of
zeal displayed by the managers of the two classes of schools :
They vary much in both classes. I was at a School Board school last week
in Walworth, and nothing could be more assiduous than the zeal displayed
by the manager of that school. **
613. On the other hand, you sometimes find that the managers do not meet
you ?
I went to Mr. Croad, and I believe the Board passed a resolution that some
manager should always be present.
614. In the view of that attendance of managers of Board schools falling to a
still
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. .75
still lower point, would it be possible to provide in the ease of Board schools,
that supervision and attention which, in the case of previously existing schools,
have been given by other managers ? - -
I believe the School Board proposes to exercise a central control agency.
Rev. T. Sharpe.
23rd May 1873.
615. That can hardly be done by voluntary agency, because I suppose some
expense will be entailed?
I do not know what their plans will be.
616. Still, if you do not find sufficient interest on the part of those
residing near a school to superintend its affairs, what reason have you to think
that a sufficient number of managers would be found in any central spot willing
to diffuse themselves over the metropolis, and take the general care of this
large number of schools and children 2 - -
I could not expect them to take the same personal interest in each.
617. It contributes very much, does it not, to the efficiency of a school that
there should be a personal interest and a personal superintendence on the part
of persons of a more educated class and some acquaintance with educational
matters, which keeps the master up to his work? -
Undoubtedly, with reference to all denominations.
618. Can you tell the Committee what the cost per child has been in denomi-
national schools which existed before the passing of the Act?
The Duke of Newcastle's Commission fixes it at 30s., that is, one-third by volun-
tary subscriptions and a third by public grant. It was only average. That
theory did not hold good with reference to any particular place, whether country
schools or town schools. It has risen since then.
619. Duke of Cleveland.] The masters are more highly paid?
Yes, they have higher salaries, and larger fees are paid by the parent which
enables managers to spend more money generally.
620. Earl Beauchamp.] I understood you to say that the Education Depart-
ment did not take any cognisance whatever with regard to the sufficiency or
suitability of the London schools?
None at all in London.
621. Merely on the efficiency
Except by correspondence with the School Board the inspectors were told
nothing about sufficiency. I do not know what they may have done through
their secretary corresponding with the School Board directly.
622. You would hold yourself precluded from making any comments except
as regards the efficiency of the school you were called on to inspect :
The question was never referred to us.
623. I am not asking what occurs when any question is specially referred to
you, but as an ordinary matter you would hold yourselves precluded from touch-
ing on any question except that of efficiency 3
Generally, but not on this question of compulsory sites. These were specially
referred to us.
624. How far would you consider yourself justified in dealing with a case of
compulsory site, which was referred to you ? -
I should report on the whole question.
625. Should you hold yourself at liberty to question the propriety of the con-
tract of the Board in mapping out these subdivisions? . •.
Yes.
626. Have you done so at all in any case; have you assumed that these
imaginary lines were the result of perfect wisdom
I have ignored them altogether, except for the purpose of enumeration.
627. Then when you were called upon to report as regards Blocks H. and I.,
did you take into account the existing schools marked No. 16, which for 40 years
were connected with those two blocks 2
Yes. -
628. To what extent, and how did you take that into account 2
As supplying so many places. -
(119.) K 2 º 629. They
76. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT comMITTEE ON
Rev. T. Sharpe.
23rd May 1873.
629. They are entirely situate in Block F., though for 40 years they have been
connected with the population of Blocks H. and I. ; you tell the Committee you
disregard these red lines, except for the purpose of enumeration. May I ask
you how you dealt with the case of the St. Mary's Schools, marked No. 16 on
the map * -
I took them as belonging to block F. certainly ; there was another site, called
the Walnut Tree Walk site; I did consider this Block F. separately.
630. You did guide yourself in that particular case by that imaginary line *
I did in some degree.
631. Did you at all disregard its consideration ? -
I think I must have taken F. and E. together; that was with regard to the
Walnut Tree Walk site.
632. Was it within your knowledge, at the time you reported in this district,
that school No. 16 had been for 40 years connected with H. and I. P
Yes. -
633. You knew that
Yes.
634. And you disregarded it
What I wished to do in considering the whole question, was to see whether
there were vacant spaces for schools, so as not to interfere with the existing
schools.
635. The people in the district have for a certain length of time been con-
nected with particular schools, now separated from them by an imaginary line,
and you have in this particular case, notwithstanding those facts, disregarded
their previous connection, and considered the scholars in question as connected
with a block with which literally they have nothing to do?
Yes, with F. and E., I saw that in the whole of this particular neighbourhood
there were no existing schools, if assuming the deficiency which is put down
here. As regards Block F. and E., I consider that the Walnut Tree Walk site
is the proper site. º
636. Duke of Cleveland.] Is that out of F. 2
That is in E.; the chief thing I looked at was that they were distant from
the existing schools, and were not likely to injure them ; that is the chief point
I considered without reference to any particular blocks.
637. Lord Lawrence.] I understand you to express an opinion that the
managers of the voluntary schools are more zealous, generally speaking, than
those of the Board schools :
Yes.
638. Have you found that the Board schools which have been established
are less efficient or more efficient, are equally efficient than the denominational
schools?
I have see only about 10 to examine them ; I should say that since I began,
they were equally efficient, but you can hardly judge upon the first exami-
nation, when they are at liberty to put them down at any standard they
please.
639. How do you account for the children leaving the schools in the south-
west corner of H., and going into the Miller's-lane School?
I cannot account for it.
640. Is it a question of fees, or greater efficiency 7 º
The fees of the Miller's-lane School are the lowest, the fee is 1 d.
Rev. Canon Gregory..] The old ones were 1 d., and the new ones 2 d.
641. Chairman.] Taking the case of the Doughty-street School, was that not
a ragged school originally, which now charges a fee of I d. 3
Yes.
642. That being the case, the fee would be deterrent, rather than en-
couraging?
Yes.
643. I understood
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 77
643. I understood you to say that the Doughty-street School had drawn
children from the other schools?
When a new school opens it will always draw children away from other
schools. I find that the children who are only six or seven years of age may
have been in several different schools. t
644. Lord Lawrence..] Can you tell the Committee, as a fact, whether Canon
Gregory's schools are filled from H. and I. wº
I cannot answer that question.
645. I see by the corrected return of the Board, that the deficiency of infants
in Block H. is 524, and the deficiency in I. is only 330; if that is correct, and,
as I understand, it has not been seriously impugned, how do you account for
its being a better arrangement to put the school in I., rather than on the border
of H. ' *
I have not been supplied with those statistics. The School Board have not
supplied us with anything, except the first Blue Book, which appears to be
wrong in some of the particulars; I have had to correct it by a visit to the
School Board.
646. Assuming that that return is correct, should you say that the schools
had been put in I.” -
I should say not. There is only one small infant school in the whole of I.,
that (referring to the Map) is a boys' school; that is a small school where the
scholars are not more than 20. This is a girls' school with a class of infants
attached to it. There is no infants' school, properly speaking, in that block.
647. You cannot understand how there is so small a deficiency as 330?
No.
648. Earl Beauchamp examined you as to the bearings of these imaginary
lines which the Board have drawn for the sake of enumeration; in point of
fact, those lines do not in any degree prevent the parents of children sending
their children to any schools that they may think proper ?
Unless there be crossings with a good many carriages, like Waterloo-road or
Kennington-road.
649. I am taking these lines, which may be said to be artificial lines; there
is no difficulty of that sort, and the children go to any schools they like, do
they not?
Yes; I should prefer considering all these blocks together, except that the
children will not travel very far to School, and therefore it is convenient to take
a smaller block.
650. Duke of Cleveland.] In drawing these imaginary subdivisions, I suppose
the principle was that certain streets were considered as lines of demarcation ;
not ecclesiastical arrangements, but certain streets?
That is true. t
651. That is the cause why Princes-street was drawn between F., H., and I.,
I presume?
Yes.
652. Therefore it was from an accident, and not from any design on the part
of the School Board, that the children of St. Mary-the-Less and the school
adjacent were separated from the parishes to which they belong
I must leave that to the School Board to answer.
653. I thought you would be acquainted with the fact of its being an
accident : - *
I have not the least knowledge of it.
654. Lord Lawrence..] In the course of your evidence you spoke of the pro-
bable average number of absentees from school; I think you said that it was
something like 25 per cent. *
From the lower class of schools.
655. Do you think it would be fair at so early a day as this to assume that
because the average non-attendants were, say, 25 per cent., that that average
will remain Is it not fair and reasonable to suppose that as the schools
Rev. T. Sharpe.
23rd May 1873.
(119.) K 3 become
78 . . MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. T. Sharpe. become known, and they increase in efficiency, that they will increase in
popularity, and that the parents will gradually learn to see the advantage of
sending their children to school, and that the Board may reasonably expect
that that per-centage of absentees that now exists will be considerably reduced
Very gradually, by a very slow process.
656. Do you not think that it will be reduced
Yes, very slowly.
657. Do you not think that the School Board ought to aim at this reduction ?
Certainly.
23rd May 1873.
658. Do you not think that the School Board ought to provide accommoda-
tion, so that as the average number of absentees is reduced there will be the
accommodation which is required 2
I said before that I think the process of building ought to go on pari passu
with the compulsory or persuasive powers of the Board.
659. Ought you to pitch your present accommodation exactly, or nearly
exactly, at the present number of children which at the present time require
accommodation, and make no allowance for absentees :
That is a question which I have never raised, having no discretion in the
matter.
660. I ask you, as an inspector of schools, and a gentleman who has been
dealing with the subject, do you, or do you not, think it reasonable in the
Board to make arrangements for a considerable margin of these absentees
eventually going to school?
You must always build in excess of those who are going to school at the
time, and keep on building as the excess reaches the highest point.
661. Is it not the case, that there would even now be occasions on which a
considerable number of children might come to school, and find no accommo-
dation, if you only provided accommodation for the average :
In the summer time the infant school would be overcrowded. It is the
infants who disturb our calculation. They crowd in in the summer time, and
crowd out in the winter. The boys and girls are pretty stationary.
662. Earl Beauchamp.] I suppose in summer you can open the windows,
without doing much harm to the children?
Infants' Schools are sometimes overcrowded to the extent of more than one-
fourth of their other proper accommodations in summer, but in the winter
they bring it down to the average required by the department of eight square
feet the whole year for each child. -
663. Duke of Cleveland.] Is it not the case that sometimes there are children
over the age of 13 who attend ?
They are comparatively few.
664. But that does exist 2
Yes.
665. To a certain degree some calculation must be made of that sort 2
I could soon tell the exact number in my own district. There is only one
really disturbing element, namely, the infants.
666. Do you consider that the School Board has any discretion with regard
to the number that they out to provide for 7
I think the Act leaves them no discretion whatever.
667. Then they are bound in point of fact by the Act to build for a greater
number than actually go to school at present 2
Yes; they are bound, as I understand, by the Act, to provide for every age
between 3 and 13.
668. Therefore, in point of fact, they must increase the accommodation be-
yond the immediate requirements of the Act:
They must keep on building in excess.
669. In conformity with the Act 2
Yes.
670. They ,
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 79
670. They cannot build all at once, but still they must build in order to com-
ply with the Act to meet the future increase?
The department will compel them to build ; as far as I understand, the de-
partment has the power to compel the School Board to build for every child,
whether he goes to school or not.
671. As a rule, do you consider that 24 per cent. may be considered as the
number of absentees, from one source or another P
I should not increase that ; I should not recognise more than 10 or 12 per
Cent.
672. Practically, from your experience in other districts, as well as in London,
you find that to be the case?
I think 25 per cent. London is comparatively higher.
673. In the country you were bound at about 24 per cent. 2
I think, taking my experience generally, that it is nearly one-fourth, 20 or 25
per cent.
674. That is, making deductions of all kinds?
Yes; reasonable, and unreasonable.
675. Lord Lawrence.] I understood that the Board, in calculating what
accommodation to provide for, made an estimate in their minds of the increment
of the number going into a school, and the decrease in the number of absentees
for something like 10 years; do you think that was unreasonable
I do not know what the proposed increment was.
676. They estimated that there would be a gradual increment year by year,
rising in every year; they provided in their proposals for something like an
increment year by year in 10 years, in arranging for the present buildings
It should be a small increment; a very gradual increment.
677. Do you think it would be unreasonable to make a large increment 2
Yes, certainly.
678. Do you think that an increment, extending up to 10 years, was
excessive 2 -
No.
79. Is it not the case, in point of fact, that it would have been very incom-
venient, after the Board had selected a site, and constructed a school in a given
building, that in three, or four, or five years, for various reasons, they were
required to choose another site, and to build an additional school in that block.
Would it not be far better that they should allow a margin for a reasonable
increase in the accommodation of the schools, rather than build exactly for the
number of children now going to school, than contemplate hereafter building
another school in that block?
I should think it would be better to build so as not to injure the existing
Schools.
689. Would it not be better in your opinion to anticipate?
I should provide in building so that you might add to them, afterwards if
necessary.
681. Lord Kesteven.] Are you inspector for any parish north of the Thames?
No ; only for the Lambeth district.
682. There is a gradual increment of population?
It is more rapid in certain parts.
683. You think it necessary to provide school accommodation for the maximum
number of children in that part 2
The Education Act requires it.
684. But how would you act in a case where there is a decrease of popula-
tion, and consequently in the supply of children. In some of the metropolitan
parishes, take the City of London, for example, should you think it your duty to
provide for that maximum number of children that there are at the present
moment 2
They would be already provided for by the existing accommodation.
Rev. T. Sharpe.
sºmºmº
23rd May 1873.
(119.) - K 4 685, You
80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. T. Sharpe. 685. You would not in that case provide additional buildings because there
a3rd May 1873, is no increase in the number of children attending school?
* Not if they were already provided for. The City of London is already suffi-
ciently provided for, and therefore there is no occasion to meddle with it.
a-
686. With regard to the boundaries which you have pointed out of those
divisions, do you see any objection to passing over the boundary out of H.
into F. 2
None whatever. This road (referring to the Map) is very easy to cross.
687. Are any of the schools in connection with H. over the boundary, and
therefore placed within F. * - *
There is no such thing as a school in connection with H.
688. That is a proposed school which you have got your pen on, is it not?
That is the Doughty-street school.
689. Where are those other schools :
St. Mary-the-Less, for boys and girls.
699. Where are the schools in connection with the church of St. Mary-the-
Less 2
This and this (pointing them out).
691. That one in F. is over the boundary, is it not ?
The church is over the boundary.
692. The school is over the boundary too, is it not
The church and school are over the boundary of the parish.
693. Then in the boundaries which you have drawn out, you would exclude
that school from the other part of the parish 2
They would still continue to draw children.
694. Duke of Cleveland.] You do not regard parishes 2
We do not regard parishes.
695. Lord Kesteven.] How do you enumerate them in that case ?
1 went about this neighbourhood and found that there was a number of
children not attending any school. The School Board's proposal was to place a
school there.
696. Is that the proposed school?
Yes.
697. That is very essential, is it not
If they put down schools as they are required by the Act at some time or
other, the best plan will be at a distance from the existing schools, so as not to
injure them in any way.
698. That school does not affect the existing schools?
I cannot say that it may not have had some effect upon them.
699. It might draw away children from other schools :
Yes; but it is for infants chiefly.
700. Earl Beauchamp.] You have been asked about the increase in population
and the necessity of making provision for that ; is it not the case that where
you have a dense population already existing in a given area, no increase of the
population can take place there, but the increase takes place when the ground
is only partially covered with houses?
Yes.
701. So that given a dense population there is no reason to suppose that you
will require accommodation for more or less population 25 or 30 years hence
than you do at the present time :
I always anticipate that the Board would exercise compulsory powers.
702. Taking the present calculation from the increment of the population ?
Yes.
703. You have been asked about the Walnut Tree Walk School, which is
II].
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 8]
in Block E.; in this Bill, it is proposed to take compulsory powers for a school
in Walnut Tree Walk 2
Yes.
704. If the imaginery line of Princes-road were disregarded, and schools,
which for 40 years have been connected with H. and I., continue to be reckoned
as supplementing the accommodation of that district, is there any reason why
Block F. should not be united to Block E.; there must either be buildings on
the Walnut Tree Walk site, so as to afford accommodation between E. and D.
or some central spot taken which would afford accommodation for those blocks 7
The site would be too far for infants.
Rev. T. Sharpe.
23rd May 1873.
705. Leaving No. 16 and St. Mary-the-Less to supply accommodation as they .
have done for 40 years to H. and I., why cannot the Walnut Tree Walk School
be either enlarged or changed so as to afford accommodation to E. and F. P
It is designed for that.
706. No, the Walnut Tree Walk is not designed for that ?
No, D. and E.
707. Is there any reason why it should not be so arranged as to afford
accommodation for the people of F.; is there any reason why the proper site to
accommodate Blocks E. and F. should not be either Walnut Tree Walk site, or
some other site 2
I should think a site might be selected between E. and F.
708. To accommodate the population without interfering with any existing
school 3
It would interfere rather with the George-street School. The site has been
properly selected by the Board, I suppose, as being as far as possible from all
existing schools.
709. Lord Kesteven.] Is it the fact, that E. and F. are as much built upon
as H. and T. 7 f
They are quite covered with buildings.
71o. Entirely?
All this part, certainly (referring to the Map).
711. Is E. equally built over ?
That question will be better answered by another witness.
712. Duke of Cleveland.] Except through the action of the compulsory
clause, H., I., and F., and perhaps E., are so built over, that you cannot antici-
pate any larger increment to the population, nor consequently any large
increment of children, but what you anticipate as I understand is, that the
compulsory powers will compel a greater attendance than at present takes
place : e
Yes.
713. You do not anticipate a greater number of children, inasmuch as the
population being extremely dense, and the houses being filled, there is no room,
but because there is no vacant place where fresh houses can be huilt
I think not ; I think the population is more likely to decrease than
increase.
714. Are not your present calculations framed upon the action of the com-
pulsory powers which are vested in the Board 7
I have always considered that they were required to build for every child
at present there. &
715. Not for every child who ought to attend ?
Yes; for every child who ought to be there.
716. As at present, there are a great number of absences; your belief is,
that the compulsory power will eventually compel a much larger attendance
than at present takes place 3
I hope so.
717. Therefore that is your justification, I presume, for an increase ?
Yes.
(119.) L 7 18. You
82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. T. Sharpe.
23rd May 1873.
718. You do not anticipate an increase in the population in any densely
populated district -
No.
719. Therefore it is by the action of compulsion on the part of the
Board 2
Yes; there is a margin left of 500 or 600.
720. But it would be of no use to put an infant school at a distance from
where the dense population is, inasmuch as infants cannot go any great
distance 2
No.
721. At the same time, you must have near an infant school a girls' school,
otherwise the infants could not in any great numbers attend, except from the
immediate neighbourhood; they could not attend from any distant part?
No.
722. Therefore that becomes a matter of necessity?
It does.
723. Therefore, as I understand you, the choice for the School Board lies.
between H. and I., inasmuch as they propose to build an infant school, and an
infant school is required in that district; therefore the choice, which is really
the practical choice that they have to make, is between a site in I., or a site in
H.; is not that so
It is.
724. You, on the whole, rather prefer I., because you think it would accom-
modate that district better than the site selected?
I think so.
725. Lord Lawrence.] Even supposing that that return as to infants is
correct 2
There must be 300 infants in this neighbourhood; there is no infant school
in that block.
726. What has become of the 500 infants in H. :
I am told there are some vacant places.
727. Earl Beauchamp. As regards the existing population, are you aware
that, according to the Census Returns of 1871 as compared with 1861, there
has been a large increase of population in those very Blocks, H., I., and F., and
that even now they are building -
What was formerly Vauxhall Gardens is now nearly covered. Ten years ago
I have no doubt that this (referring to the Map) was nothing but gardens or
fields.
728. I see by the returns that the population has increased upwards of 6,000
between 1861 and 1871
There is no room for an increase now. They have covered, as I have said,
what was Vauxhall Gardens. They are building in this neighbourhood, but
there is very little space still uncovered.
729. Is there any difficulty in obtaining sites in this district?
I should have thought with the compulsory powers there would be none.
730. Have those compulsory powers been put in force :
No.
731. Lord Lawrence.] There was one case in which the compulsory powers
had to be put in force, because the owner was a lunatic,and could not give a proper
title. I am given to understand that where sites are procurable for building
private houses, that people now live in flats. Rather than leave the neighbour-
hood, two or three families crowd into one house :
Yes, two or three rooms are filled by one family.
732. So that it is possible the population may increase, although there is not
much room!
I should hope not. I hope they will not swarm more than they do at present
moment. We should not take that into account. - -
733. Chairman.
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 83
,733. Chairman.] Do you think the population of that part of Lambeth is at
all fluctuating 2
Very fluctuating indeed.
734. Where do they migrate to; do they merely go away for a time or mig
to other parts of the ineropolis entirely y y g y , or migrate
Merely for a time.
735. Lord Kesteven.] They shift their abodes very frequently
Very frequently indeed.
, 736. If they have work in a district, they do not always leave the district,
|. i. remain in the district, even although they may change their identical
IOdging 4.
The employers of labour would answer that question better than myself. As
a practiºl, rule, in the lower class schools we never examine very much more
than half the children, because the children have not lived long enough in the
neighbourhood.
737. You mean that you require a certain amount of attendance before you
examine them P
Yes.
738. How many months?
It amounts to seven months.
739. Before you consider them qualified for examination ?
Yes. If a child attended for seven months, he would then be qualified for
examination.
740. Duke of Cleveland.] Many of them change their residences every six
months, and therefore those children are not qualified for examination ?
No.
741. Then it is the case that they change their schools very often ?
Yes.
742. I presume that rather depends upon the change of residence?
In some degree. There are two or three causes combined.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr. ANDREW YOUNG, is called in ; and Examined, as follows:
743. Chairman.] WHAT is your capacity ?
I am acting in searching for sites and in purchasing property.
744. What is your title Ż
My technical title is Clerk of the Sites Committee,
745. Were you employed in calculating these enumerations for the different
blocks of this neighbourhood
Yes.
746. What is the population of F. -
I cannot carry these figures in my head, but from what I remember, the
population of H. and I. together is 19,000.
747. What is the population of F. 2
We have no return of the population of F.
748. Lord Lawrence.j The Committee wish you to check the returns relative
to the different blocks, and to explain to the Committee the way in which you
have verified the census returns?
The census books from the Registrar General's Office were placed in my
hands. I had certain enumerators under me who went from house to house, and
ascertained whether the children were still living in the houses and where they
went to school. After all this had been done, the returns were tabulated.
Knowing how many children went to school, and how many did not attend
school, and from what causes, they were placed in the respective blocks. The
numbers in H. were kept separate from the numbers in I. and F. Sometime after
that, when it was thought that there might have been some mistake, I went through
the books again with the present Superintendent and the Visitors of Lambeth, and
Rev. T. Sharpe.
23rd May 1873.
wº-mass wº
Mr. A. Young.
(I19.) L 2 looking
84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
. . Mr. A. Young.
23rd May 1873.
looking very carefully into the books, and inquiring at the houses again, we found
that where these divisions were made along the road, in some cases children
who were on the opposite side of the road had been placed in the returns of
H. and I, and the consequence was a slight difference in the returns after
the corrections had been made. After making deductions and additions, we
found that in H. and I. there was only a difference of 166 children.
749. They were so nearly accurate that there was only that difference?
Yes.
750. Lord Lawrence..] Did you verify those returns of the children in each
block 2
In each block.
751. Did you find them, with the exception you have now stated, correct
With the exception of 166. -
752. With that exception they were correct 2
They were.
753. Can you say why that site on the borders of H. and I. was specially
selected by the Board :
It was selected for these reasons: it was most central for H. and I., and it was
at a greater distance from all the other schools. We endeavoured to get a site
where we would disturb the fewest number of people in the houses. There is
more room in the gardens on this site, therefore we require fewer houses, and it
would be less costly. These were the three reasons for this site being selected.
754. Do you consider that if we had looked in I. we could have found a more
suitable site P
We should have had to turn out more people from their houses. We should
not have obtained so large an area with so few a number of houses upon it, and
it would have been more costly. We should have gone nearer existing schools.
755. What existing schools should you have got near 2
If we had gone into I., we should have been near Park-street and Esher-street
Schools. There is a school in George-street in F, and we should have perhaps
gone a little near that school. º
756. Is it not the case that the schools on the southern part of I. cut off from
the central site in I. 3
You cannot get to the extreme end of I. very readily without going somewhat
round.
757. If it were the case that you had taken a site on the western part of I.
it would not have practically interfered with those schools in the east. Mr. Sharp
says that it would not really have done that because they were cut off; are
they cut off in the way described by Sharp 2
You can get readily to the Park-street School. There is a direct communica-
tion from Vauxhall-street to Park street.
758. But still they would have to go round?
Not much round.
759. Then you do not think, in point of fact, that it would have interfered
with going into I. 7
We should have been nearer these schools.
760. Mr. Sharp says that those schools are really cut off from such a site as he
would have chosen in I. ; are they cut off really, or are they not ; what I
I understood from you was that you were inclined to say that these schools were
not cut off P
Esher-street is quite cut off. Esher-street forms a cul de sac, but Park-street
leads right into Vauxhall-street. -
761. Assuming that a school were put in New-street, what would be the
distance from that school which the children would have to travel ?
Three minutes walk.
762. And what would be the distance from Mrs. Stokes' school?
About five minutes walk from that.
763. So that in point of fact it would interfere with those two schools
(Park-street and George-street), but not interfere with that (Esher-street) ;
Yes. º
764. Lord
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL oRDER CONFIRMATION BILL, 85
764. Lord Lawrence.] Where is the site selected which will accommodate the
western part of F. and E. 7
I understand that there is no accommodation required in F., it is entirely for
E.; we have selected a site in Walnut Tree Walk for E.
765. But supposing we assume that the children in these schools of Canon
Gregory all went here, and the deficit in H. was supplied, could you select a
site that would accommodate the wants of the eastern portion of E. and F., and
the deficit in I. P
Not so readily as where we have selected a site in E.; there is great difficulty
in finding a site here ; we have looked all round the neighbourhood; where we
have selected the site they intend cutting off the gardens of the existing houses,
and running a road through and building; the lease is very short, and I believe
they are only waiting tillithas fallen through; that will increase the population in E.
766. Duke of Cleveland.] How many is that Walnut Tree Walk School
intended to be built for 2
Seven hundred.
767. Lord Kesteven.] What is the number of your proposed school in the
centre 2
Five hundred.
768. Duke of Cleveland.] The Walnut Tree Walk Schools is for boys, girls,
and infants?
Yes.
769. Seven hundred altogether ?
Yes.
770. Lord Lawrence.] Could you conveniently select a site which would
supply the deficit in the eastern part of F. and I. 2
There would be great difficulty in selecting a site here (referring to the Map).
The whole of this neighbourhood has been looked round, and thoroughly
examined. There decidedly would be a greater difficulty in selecting a site in
this portion of F. than there would be either on this part of H. and I., or this
part of E.
771. Lord Kesteven.] For what reason 2
It is so closely packed with small houses.
772. You mean that you would require a larger clearance P
Yes; and this part of F., which has lately been built upon, the houses have
been built very closely, and it will be very expensive.
773. Lord Lawrence.] Are the occupiers of these houses above the class
that would send their children to the 1 d. and 2 d. schools 2
When you get as far as the edge of Kennington-road they are decidedly of
the 9 d. class. In the new part, the house would fetch about 35 l. per annum.
774. Would they be inhabited by people who would send their children to
the elementary schools under 9 d. 2
Yes,
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr. JAMES STIFF, is called in ; and Re-examined, as follows:
775. Lord Lawrence.] You are a Member of the London School Board?
Yes.
776. You are one of the members for the district of Lambeth 2
Yes.
777. How long have you known the locality which is described on the map
as H., I., and F. P
Forty-seven years.
778. Do you live in the Lambeth district 7
Mr. A. Young.
23rd May 1873.
Mr. J. Stiff.
(119.) L 3 I have
86 MINUTES OF Ev1DENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. J. Stiff.
ºr "
23rd May 1873.
I have lived in the immediate neighbourhood the greater part of my life, until
the last 10 years. -
779. You have known it for 47 years 2
Yes.
780. Were you one of the members of the Board who selected the proposed
site between H. and I. 2
Yes.
781. Who was conjoined with you in the selection of that site?
I thought of it before anybody was with me.
782. Was not Mr. Rogers with you ?
Mr. Rogers and Mr. Young came afterwards and looked at the site, and
thought it was the very best that could be selected in the neighbourhood.
783. Upon what ground did you think it the most eligible site º
As being the most central, so as to accommodate the largest number of
infants and children generally. The leases of the houses are out in about 11
years; they are very much dilapidated, and in consequence the site would be
less costly than any other site ; we get more surface space for the same amount
of money than we could obtain in any other portion of the division.
784. Putting aside the question of expense, would it or would it not have been
more convenient for the accommodation of the children, to have put the school
in I. rather than on the borders of H. and I. 2 -
No, I do not quite agree with Mr. Sharpe with reference to that matter; the
population is certainly just on the other side, but then each street comes down
to this very spot, and so makes it the most convenient spot that we can possibly
select. As has been observed before, if we were not on the other side of
Vauxhall-street, we should have been obliged to pull a larger number of houses
down; the houses are more closely built, with less garden room; if we had gone
there, we must have destroyed a greater number of houses.
785. Putting aside the question of the destruction of houses, and the question
of expense, would not a site selected in I. have been more convenient for the
children than the site now selected 2
I do not think it would; I think this is the very best site that could possibly
be selected. If I had to go over the work again, I should come to just the same
conclusion that I came to in the first instance, namely, that it is the very best
site in the neighbourhood for the purpose.
786. Supposing you put the school in I., would there be any interference with
those schools to the east of I. ; I allude to the evidence given by Mr. Sharpe P
With reference to Esher-street ; you would have no doubt to go round
Kennington-lane to get into Esher-street, you cannot go direct across; there is
a barrier. The streets at the end do not run there; they are separated by blind
streets; they come in from Kennington-lane, and do not come into New-street,
in consequence of which the children from here (referring to the Map), must go
round to get there, and the children from there must go round to get
here. o
787. As regards the two schools further to the east, would the children of
those schools be drawn into a school put upon a site in the centre of I.
With reference to Canon Gregory's new schools in Park-street, I have really
had a conscientious feeling and judgment with reference to the matter when I
selected this site as being the furthest from the existing schools.
788. Taking them all round?
Yes.
789. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Canon Gregory's schools on
the borders of F., which are called No. 16, were allowed for the accommodation
of H., could you fairly select a site to the east of F. which would answer for
the eastern part of F. and I. 2 *
No.
790. Why not? o
It would be too far off; you could not get infants to travel that distance; the
greater
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 87
greater part of the infants live in the immediate neighbourhood round this
very spot.
791. They would have further to go -
Yes; you could not get them to come that distance on wet mornings.
792. Did you, in making your arrangements, bear in mind that a school on
that central site would, to some extent, interfere with those schools of Canon
Gregory
Yes, I am the treasurer of the British and Foreign School in the immediate
neighbourhood, which are as close as the school of Canon Gregory in Park-street.
793. Where is that school?
In George-street; I may mention, in connection with the Board opening a
new school, that the average attendance of that school last year increased 32;
I cannot account for children coming out of existing schools; that is not my
business.
794. Duke of Cleveland.] Is it not the case that the proposed school is in-
tended merely for infants?
Yes.
795. The British and Foreign School which you refer to, is not merely for
infants 2
No, it is for boys.
796. Boys and girls 2
Boys, and the older portion of infants.
797. But few between three and five years of age *
We do not admit them less than five years.
798. Then, in point of fact, they are not infants
Between three and seven years of age are infants. We admit them from
five to seven years of age to the junior schools.
799. Lord Kesteven.] What is the other schools near your British and
Foreign Schools?
Canon Gregory's Schools.
800. Do they interfere with one another in any way f
Not at all; they have existed side by side for the last 30 years, and both go
on comfortably together.
801. Is there a Board school at the southern extremity ?
The nearest Board school is the school in Doughty-street.
802. Duke of Cleveland.] Was not that formerly a ragged school?
Yes.
803. Lord Kesteven.] That is very near, then :
Yes, it is near.
804. Does that draw from the other schools 2
No, I think not. The class of children who go to Doughty-street School
would not be of the same class as those who go to Canon Gregory's School.
805. What class are they
The lowest class.
806. Those who go to the penny school?
Yes.
807. Do they take them in as infants at three years old 2
We have an infants' school now established in conjunction with the Board
schools. The Board have now increased the accommodation at Doughty-street,
and made a portion of it an infants' school, which is filled to overflowing. We
cannot take in the number that we want.
808. Lord Lawrence.] The great deficiency in the accommodation being for
infants, on what grounds did the Board arrange to put the boys and girls also
there 2 *
Mr. J. Stiff.
23rd May 1873.
(119.) L 4 - Simply
88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. J. Stiff.
23rd May 1873.
Simply because it is difficult to have an infants' school; you cannot get the
infants without having some elder children to bring them.
809. The elder girls would bring their little sisters?
Yes.
810. But what do you say as regards the boys 3
As regards the boys we have in the Miller's-lane School an average attend-
ance of 223 this very quarter.
811. The Miller's-lane School is a temporary school 7
Yes, which we intend to close as soon as the new school is built.
812. Earl Beauchamp.] I must call your attention to the quarterly return,
dated 29th March 1873, in which I find it stated that in the Miller's-lane
School the total accommodation is 193
I am stating the attendance as given me up to last week.
813. Lord Lawrence.] But Earl Beauchamp says that the accommodation
given in the quarterly return would not allow for that?
I think there is some mistake with reference to the number. It was taken as
being 240. I do not know exactly how the figures have crept in as only 193.
I think the cubic space of the room will accommodate 240.
814. Lord Kesteven.] Would that not be caused by its being the winter
quarter rather than the spring quarter
The school has been progressing ever since it has been opened. It has not
been opened more than seven or eight months.
815. You have no experience as to the attendance at different seasons of the
year?
The season of the year does affect every school to some extent.
816. You would have a smaller return for the winter quarter than you would
have for the spring and summer, I presume?
Yes.
817. Earl Beauchamp.] I find it stated that the total accommodation is 193;
the total number on the rolls is 217, and the highest number attending on any
day is 232 °
The number on the rolls at the present moment is 299.
818. I am taking the quarterly return. The highest number on any day was
232; the total average attendance for the quarter ending March 1872 was 192;
it appears that on a particular day the attendance rose to 232, but still the
average runs at 172?
Yes.
819. Lord Lawrence.] As I understand, the Board intend to provide for 100
boys in the school to be built in order to be able to do away with the tem-
porary schools in Miller's-lane?
Yes.
820. Where do the children who attend the Miller's-lane School come from
in a general way?
I believe the greater part of them come from the other side of Vauxhall.
821. Where 2 -
Up to the Wandsworth-road district; we have not school accommodation
there. The visitors have been at work, and have found a large number of
children not attending the schools; as this was the nearest school that they could
come to, I think a great many of them have come from that district; in that
locality we intend to build a school presently.
822. Duke of Cleveland.] I suppose some distance off?
Yes, a mile and a quarter.
823. Lord Kesteven.] Yet it draws scholars:
Yes; boys can go a greater distance.
824. Elder boys 2
This is not an infants' school; it is a boys' school; we do not admit any
under five years of age into that school.
825. Lord
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 89
825. Lord Lawrence..] As a matter of fact, the Miller's-lane School has drawn
some children from the existing schools : :*
This morning I tried to ascertain how many had come from the Roman
Catholic School, and we found only one boy. This very morning, when the
children were assembled, I went there for the purpose of ascertaining that.
826. Is that from that particular sehool?
From the particular Roman Catholic School on the Vauxhall Gardens site.
827. You never draw children from that school to your School?
It was thought that we had done so.
828. Duke of Cleveland.] They had fallen off?
Yes. -
829. Therefore, the falling off was attributed to that
Yes. -
830. Lord Lawrence.] In your opinion, supposing a site was available in F.,
would that injure Canon Gregory's school, which is here marked No. 16 :
Very much more than where we have placed it. It would be so much nearer,
and on the other side of the main thoroughfare.
831. Chairman.] You say that the greater part of the boys who attend the
Miller's-lane Schools now come from the Vauxhill side :
Yes.
832. Do I understand that you are going to build another school which will
absorb a great portion of the scholars of the Miller's-lane School?
Yes. -
833. Leaving only 100 boys to go to that school?
Yes.
834. Because Miller's-lane School is going to cease ?
I have no doubt that we have 100 at least from the immediate neighhourhood,
who would go from the Miller's-lane School, when we close it, into the new school;
but I should think they come from the district beyond where they would
get accommodated by and by as soon as we can build a school in the other
direction.
835. Lord Lawrence. Is the population of these blocks shifting, or the
reverse? -
They are shifting. With reference to the question which was asked Mr.
Sharpe as to this Block I., all these streets have been built within the last few
years on the gardens of the houses in Kennington-lane. I should think there
are 50 or 60 new houses built on the back ground of the houses, which have
been in existence for the last 40 years.
836. Is the population, in your opinion, migratory at all 2
The greater part of this neighbourhood is occupied by mechanics. Of course,
if mechanics get a job on the other side of London they will remove to that side,
and when they get a job in this locality again then they come back. They move
about according to the situation of their employment.
837. On the whole, do more go away than those who come 3
You can never find a house to let in this neighbourhood; so soon as one
person goes out another comes in.
838. What proportion of the population of these Blocks F., I., H., K., and E.
would send their children to schools where the fee was above 9 d.?
I should think not one-fourth. -
839. Earl Beauchamp.] You have been, as you tell the Committeee, a very
active school manager in this district for some considerable number of years :
Yes. - -
840. Can you tell the Committee something about the compulsion as practised
by the School Board 2 d
I believe the numbers attending school are constantly increasing.
Mr. J. Stiff.
23rd May 1873.
(119.) M - 841. Is
90; MINUTES OF Ev1DENCE TAKEN BEFoRE SELECT committee on
Mr. J. Stiff.
23rd May 1873.
841. Is that borne out by the Board's quarterly return of attendances?
The quarterly returns of the attendances has not been increasing much; last
quarter was a most unfortunate quarter for weather; morning after morning
. wet, Snow, and sleet, and the children could not possibly leave their
OOſleS. -
842. With reference to the way in which compulsion is exercised, the Board
have prepared two notices, form A. and form B. ; the course pursued, I believe,
is that the visitors whom you have appointed at salaries have to ascertain whether
the children in their particular subdivisions or districts are attending school
or not?
Yes.
843. Can you give the Committee any information at all as to how often these
visitors go over the ground assigned to them P
They each of them have a division or district, and they are constantly em-
ployed upon that special division or district; how often they cover the whole
ground I am not able to say.
844. What is the proportion of visitors to the population ?
Each visitor in Lambeth has over 5,000 in population.
845. Would it be fair to assume that each visitor goes over his district in
about a month?
I should think so.
846. Therefore, it would be quite possible for new families coming into a
district, to be there a month before the visitor was aware of it?
It might be so, or it might not be so. If they were constantly employed in
the district, the visitor might see them the next day.
847. May we take it upon the average as a fortnight?
Yes.
848. When the visitor discovers that a child is not attending school, he serves
upon the parents notice A. 2
Yes; when the visitor has ascertained that there are children in a particular
house who do not attend the school, then notice A. is served, calling upon the
parents to send their children to school. If the parents send their children to
school, then no further steps are taken.
849. How many days are given to the parents under form A., before further
proceedings are taken 7
I should think about a fortnight.
850. Then what is the next step 3
The next step is to serve notice B., and with notice B. they have to appear
before the divisional committee.
851. How often do the divisional committee meet {
Including the special meetings, we have one generally every night; almost
every night in the week. The superintendent has always to be present with
the visitor. Only one member of the division attends those special meetings.
Four members have divided the Lambeth division into four different parts, and
we each take a certain part of the division.
852. Some one attends every night in order to put in force notice B. P
Nearly every night.
853. Supposing the parent still continues passive, and takes no notice, what
happens?
Then the superintendent summons the parent before a magistrate.
854. Will you describe the length of time that that process takes?
If a parent is in great distress, and has not clothes or shoes for his children,
we frequently adjourn the case for a fortnight or three weeks, and in some cases
we have adjourned for a month, so that the parent might be in a prepared state
to send the children by that time if they have promised to do so; but if they
have been careless and indifferent, then we have ordered the parent to be sum-
moned in the course of the next week or a fortnight.
- - 855. Is
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 91.
855. Is it fair to say that in the event of a parent throwing all the bbstacles
in his power against the system of compulsion, that it would take at least six
weeks from the time the visitor discovers the child to bring him to school? .
In some cases, I should think, the average would be nearly a month.
856. Then we will add to that the fortnight, which, according to the average,
would elapse before the visitor detected the child; therefore, it is not unfair to
say that at least six weeks must elapse before any child is brought to school,
where the parents resist as much as they can : * : 4. -
Yes, I should think that would be about fair.
857. It has been stated to the Committee in evidence, that the population of
parts of Lambeth are very migratory, and in some cases they change their
residence twice; in the event of a parent resisting the compulsory powers, and
changing his residence twice a year at least, three months in the year would be
wasted while the child is out of school? -
I think those are extreme cases.
858. I am putting extreme cases, because I am assuming throughout that the
parent is acting with regard to his own pocket rather than the education of his
child 2 ... •
Whenever we find a parent who is thoroughly careless and indifferent about
the child's education, we lose no time in bringing that parent before the
magistrate.
859. I am not questioning the propriety of the mode adopted by the School
Board, but I was anxious to ascertain, if a parent defies the law as much as he
can, how long it would take to put the law in force 2 .
We have to serve the two forms upon him.
Lord Lawrence.] If we meet with a recusant parent, in that case it would
be within our discretion to issue those notices or not.
860–61. Earl Beauchamp.] How are they to know whether a parent is recu-
Sant or not, until you have told him ; when you have a migratory population it
would be impossible for the visitor to be familiar with a population of that
kind?
I do not think that Lambeth should be an exception with reference to that
particular point. 3
862. It may not be an exception, but it has been stated in evidence before us,
that the population is migratory; does your acquaintance with the neighbour-
hood confirm that 2
Yes.
863. I wish to ask you a few questions about this map. I think you are re-
ferring to the school which is marked No. 19 : -
Yes.
864. This school, No. 19, is for boys and older infants, is it not ?
Yes.
865, What does the term “older infants " mean?
From five to seven years of age.
866. Boys and girls :
Only boys.
867. In fact, it is a boys' school f
Yes.
868. No. 28, which is Canon Gregory's school, is also a boys' school?
I believe that is for boys only. t
869. What addition is there for girls in the whole district, between No. 18
and No. 27, reaching up to the imaginary line north of Block F.
There is none, I believe.
870. Does it not seem to you that if any accommodation is made for infants,
as is proposed, something is due to the consideration of the population of girls
within the eastern part of the two districts F. and I.
I believe there is not any accommodation.
Mr. J. Stiff.
23rd May 1873.
(119.) - M 2 871. That
92 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. J. Stiff.
23rd May 1873.
:
871. That is in E. 2
Yes, there is no accommodation in I.
872. I think you stated that you were not to interfere with Canon Gregory's
School, No. 282
No ; it was this school in Princes-road that I bear in mind.
873. When you say that you are anxious to avoid interfering with Canon
Gregory's School, which is No. 28 on this map, is that the reason why you did
not put the school in Block I. 3
I had not any special reference to Canon Gregory's, No. 28; it was the school
in Prince's-road.
874. You told us in the beginning of your evidence, that you were very sorry
to interfere with the boys and girls, in order to put your Board school in as
central a position as possible that site *
Yes.
875. How would a school for infants and a very limited number of boys
interfere with that which is only a boys' School 3
The infants live about here (referring to the Map); we are here just about the
same distance; that is Canon Gregory's boys' School; this is Canon Gregory's
infant school; and this is his proposed boys' School. The proposed school is
nearer the Wesleyan school than it is to Canon Gregory's School.
876. I am talking of school No. 28, and you are referring continually to
No. 163 -
I had not No. 28 so much in my mind; I was referring to the school in
Prince's-road. The school in Prince's-road is very much nearer our site than
No. 28; this is a long distance; if we had put it in Mr. Sharpe's position we
should have put it here (referring to the Map).
877. Do I understand you to say, in reference to the Roman Catholic School,
that you have made inquiry as to No. 26, Miller's-lane School, and you find that
only one child attended from there 2
Yes; I made the inquiry this morning.
878. Do you draw the inference that, because you have only drawn one
Roman Catholic child from school No. 25, you have drawn none from No. 242
I believe we have taken more from the Church of England schools than we
have from the Roman Catholic School.
879. Do you know what was the average attendance, taking the three
districts, H., I., and F., of children in school before the Education Act passed
No.
880. Lord Lawrence.] I did not understand, as Earl Beauchamp seems to
have understood, that when you say it would not do to transfer the site to this
point, you alluded to the school over here (referring to the Map)
No ; if I conveyed that impression I made a mistake ; it was this school of
Canon Gregory's ; this school is so much nearer the site.
881. Did you not allude to that school?
No ; I had not that in my mind at the time I answered the question.
882. It has been proposed to put 100 boys here, you did not mean to refer
to that 3
I have scarcely seen the school in Park-street; that is a new school. I have
only passed it once.
883. Do you calculate that, owing to putting in force the compulsory clauses,
and other pressure that will be brought to bear directly and indirectedly upon
parents of children now not going to school, there will be an increase in the
attendance 3
There is already.
884. Do you think that that will go on steadily increasing?
It must go on steadily; if the divisional members of the Committee do their
duty, it must increase.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 93
The Reverend Canon GREGORY, is again called in ; and further Examined, as Rev.
y follows: * Canon Gregory.
885. Lord Lawrence.] You told us that for the purpose of school accommo- 23rd May 1873.
dation you would take the figure provided by the Board : *.
I did. 3
886. Can you tell me how you made the total accommodation of Blocks H.
and I., according to those figures, to be 2,961 °
Those are from your own returns. 3)
887. Our figures are in the Blue Book 2,752, and by our revised return,
2,768 P -
You gave me that paper on Monday.
\
888. Will you explain how you have ascertained the amount of accommoda-
tion provided in the schools enumerated by you in answer to Questions 401,
402, 403, and 404 3
I took my numbers from your own return. I said, in order to avoid dispute,
that I would take your figures.
889. Do I understand you to mean that there is a Wesleyan mixed school,
with accommodation for 262
The return that you have is that there is accommodation in the Wesleyan
schools for 262.
890. And an infant school, in addition, with accommodation for 1262
One contains accommodation for 126, and another for 136. In every case I
have subordinated my return to your own, in order to prevent unnecessary
discussion.
891. Has it not been usual to calculate that 23 per cent. of the population,
on the average, are between 3 and 13 years of age 3
Without the census tables before me, I cannot commit myself to answering
that question.
892. Are you aware that of the number of children between 3 and 13,
one-seventh may be expected to attend schools over 9d. -
I am aware that the Board divide the gross number of children by seven,
and then alter the unit. I have heard here this morning that one school con-
tains 50 more than the number at which it is estimated in your returns; they
have given it at 240 instead of 290.
893. Reverting to the question of school accommodation; assuming that we
deduct 193 for the Miller's-lane School, which is only temporary, then the
return will come out, as I said, at 2,761 ;
Precisely so. Then I should simply claim my right to reckon the whole of
the accommodation provided in my own parish for the children contained within
it. As questions have been asked about the accommodation, I may be allowed
to say that the point where there might be room for an infant school is close to
Mr. Stiff's George-street School. There, I imagine, there may be made good a
want of infant schools. The nearest, an infants' and girls' Schools, are here
(referring to the Map); George-street is near the centre of a large district. For
the whole of this district there is no school for either girls, or infants except my
parochial schools are reckoned. This may be very convenient to Mr. Stiff, but it
is hard upon us. If there were infants' and girls' schools, it is possible that
there might be a boys' school also, and that this might damage the George-street
School. There is no school here, though if anywhere in our neighbourhood,
there is room here for a Board school, because a leading member of the School
Board manages it, and there is a school put into the centre of my schools, where
one is not wanted, and where a great deal of mischief can be done, and will be
done, to my schools,
894. Do you admit that the Wesleyan School has accommodation for 262 °
There are two schools, one for girls and one for infants, and the accommoda-
tion in the two together is 262. You will notice a large amount of space here
with no school; whereas here, in the block which surrounds Albion Cottages,
(119.) M 3 º there
94 . . MINUTE3 of EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE. ON: A
Rev. there are five girls' and infant schools. There is a school here, a school here,
Canon Gregory. a school here, and a school here (pointing them out on the Map), so that no
--- infant who could attend this school is at present:400 yards off from a good and
efficient infant school. About here (the neighbourhood of the George-street
School) you will probably find most of the children from a quarter to half a mile
from an infant or girls' school. -
23rd May 1873.
895. To come back to the question of the per-centage of the population, do I
understand you to say that you allow one-seventh of the population as usually
attending schools above 9 d. 3 -- . . . -
I say the School Board, in their return, make it out to be so.
Mr. Croad.] We did not divide 681,000 by 7 to get at that. It so
happens that we do arrive at a result which singularly confirms the theory,
because it gives us one-seventh on the whole. That is our position. We did
not divide by one-seventh. We did not take the theory for granted, but
we instituted an independent inquiry, and, having ascertained the result
in different parts of London, which would vary much in detail, we find
that in the aggregate the theory is exactly confirmed.
896. Lord Lawrence.] Do you admit that, as a rule, taking the metropolis all
over, about one-sixth of the population would have to be supplied with school
accommodation ? - -
I should think that a very excessive number. In Prussia, where they have
been at work upon education a much longer time than we have, and where,
therefore, the parents being educated, are likely to send their children more to
School, we find that less than one-sixth are attending Schools.
897. Assume that something like one-sixth of the population require to be
provided with school accommodation, would it not, in many of the districts, be
the case that you have provided accommodation for more than one-sixth
I should have thought that when you find that one-half of the school accom-
modation already provided, or nearly so, is unused, we must need accommodation.
for considerably less than one-sixth.
898. You do not take into account the per-centage on the population as
affected by the compulsory clause 2
You have put down in your paper that during the last quarter it has not
produced much result. I do not think that it will ever make an appreciable
difference in the attendance of children.
899. Mr. Croad stated the population of children amounted to 4,791 in those
blocks, after explaining that there had been an error of 166. Assuming that
our enumeration, which was 4,957, is erroneous, and that the estimate of 4,370
is correct, he explained that there was an error by including a certain number
in H. and I. which belongs to K. :
That I understood to be the explanation.
Mr. Croad.] Four thousand nine hundred and fifty-seven is the total
number of children between 3 and 13, from which should be deducted 166
who are wrongly put down in those blocks.
Lord Lawrence.] That left 4,791
Mr. Croad.] Yes.
900. Lord Lawrence (to the Witness).] Assuming that our enumeration is
erroneous, and that 23 per cent. of the population of 19,000 is 4,371, do you
consider you are justified in saying that the Board allowed for twice as many
children in Lambeth as could be accommodated elsewhere :
I said 50 per cent. more; I do not think I said twice as many more.
901. I think you said in your examination that we had made a mistake of
18,000 :
I take 3,182 and 4,957, the number given by Mr. Croad; 50 per cent. upon
3,182 would be 1,591 ; that added to 3,182 would be 4,773. The number is
4,791; so that in speaking of 50 per cent. I was right within 18 children.
Lord Lawrence.] Perhaps, Mr. Croad, you will explain how that is :
Mr. Croad.] What we have to arrive at is this, whether Canon Gregory
is right in stating that in our estimate of the Number of children between
3 and
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL or DER conFIRMATION BILL. 95
3 and 13, we have added half as many more children again as we should
have added, or in his other words, that we have added, 1,800 more children
than we should have added. In order to convict us of this over estimate,
he compares two things which are wholly dissimilar. He compares one-
sixth of the population which, according to his idea, is the total number of
children between 3 and 13 with our figures; that is 3,166 with 4,791. But
the total number of children between 3 and 13 is not one-sixth, which is
only 16 per cent., but is 23 per cent. of the whole population, which would
amount to 4,370. Thus our over-estimate, which we deny to be an over-
estimate, but a matter of fact, is reduced to about 400, which is less than
10 per cent. This is the singular blunder into which Canon Gregory has
fallen. He says that the Board is wholly wanting in practical knowledge,
and yet he can make a mistake of this description.
Rev. Canon Gregory..] We are told that there is to be school accom-
modation provided for one-sixth of the population ; one-sixth is 3,182, and
thereforn. I turn your own theory against your own figures.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr. GEORGE HECTOR CROAD, is again called in, and further Examined,
as follows:
902. Earl Beauchamp.] CAN you give us the total cost of the Board?
I only received an intimation this morning that the Committee were going
into that question. This is a Return which has been presented to the House
of Commons, stating our expenditure down to last Michaelmas. Then I have
an analysis of this Return, which has been made out this morning from our
ledger. This Return, which has been made to the House of Commons, and
which has, I believe, also been presented to the House of Lords, gives for
London, the total expenditure for the period from November 1870, when the
Board were elected, down to Michaelmas last. That is nearly two years.
903. Can you give it for the last year :
I have only got an analysis of the whole for two years together; but I could
procure it for the last year, if necessary.
904. Have you made any calculation with regard to the total cost of the
Board divided as to the 35,000 scholars ?
I can give the maintenance of the schools for the whole of those two years.
Practically we did not get any schools into our hands for about a year after the
Board was elected; beginning with one or two, the schools have only been
gradually called in existence. If you take the total number of children which
we have got in our schools now, and compare it with the amount expended, it
will not represent the cost per head. The cost per head will be greater than
that. Taking the 35,000 children who are now on our books, and the cost of
maintenance for the year ending Michaelmas last, which was 17,198 l., it would
look as if the cost were only 10 s. per head, but, of course, it is something
beyond that. -
905. Some considerable sum ?
No, I do not think it is any considerable sum.
906. Of those 35,000 children, how many were in schools which you took
Over 3
I believe there would be in transferred schools 17,500 children, and in hired
buildings which are taken in districts where we propose to build, the number is
20,000. In the case of schools transferred to the Board the accommodation
amounts to 19,500.
907. What is the average attendance of children?
I have not got those separated the one from the other. We keep all our
schools together. -
908. Can you give the Committee the average attendance in the schools that
you took over ? -
Rev.
Canon Gregory.
23rd May 1873.
*mm.
Mr. G. H. Croad.
(119.) M 4 Not
96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. G. H. Croad. , Not without analysing the different schools in the quarterly returns. We
† got the whole added together. We have not separated the transfers from
the hires.
909. I wish to know what number of children were in education in those
schools before you took them P
It must have been something under 19,000; I cannot say exactly how much.
23rd May 1873.
*=semsame
910. That is only in the case of schools transferred; not in the case of schools
hired 2
Yes. In the case of hired schools, all the children who are there are new
children.
911. Would it be unfair to say that something like 15,000 children were in
attendance at the schools before they were transferred;
I should think you might take 15,000 or 16,000. Of course, that is only an
estimate.
912. In point of fact, what appears is this, that the number of children who
have been actually admitted to be under education is 19,000 :
Twenty thousand are in the hired schools. They are not all equally filled.
913. The difference between 16,000 who were under education at the time
each school was taken over, and 35,000 which are now on the rolls, is 19,000 P
Yes.
914. It appears by that calculation that the result of the operation of the
School Board has been to place 19,000 more under education than were under
education before ?
I am not prepared to say to what extent the children who are in hired build-
ings are children who have been in school before. Some of them have been in
other schools. We say that on the whole we have increased the average attend-
ance by 24,000 in other schools. Therefore if we have got some of their
children, those who have left must have been more than replaced by others.
915. I will take it roughly that you have brought 19,000 more children
under education than were under education before ?
Yes.
916. Therefore, the cost incurred by the Board must be applied to the case
of those 19,000, a portion of whom were under education before ?
Yes.
The Reverend EDWARD LEWES CUTTS, is called in ; and Examined,
as follows:
Rev. E. L. Cutts, 917. Earl Beauchamp.] I BELIEVE you are the Incumbent of the Parish of
*-s Holy Trinity, Haverstock Hill
Yes.
918. That is in the Marylebone school district, is it not?
I believe so.
19. Your parish, I believe, is very nearly co-terminous with the School Block
S. of the Marylebone district 2
Yes.
920. The whole of the Block S. is within your parish
Yes.
921. A small portion of your parish is in Block T. P
Yes.
922. What is the population of the parish :
The population in the whole of the parish is nearly 14,000.
923. What is the population of that block 2
I estimated it at about 13,500.
924. You have a school in Hartland-road 2
Yes. 925. With
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 97
925. With six school-rooms, containing accommodation for 923 children?
Yes, with six school-rooms, containing accommodation, accepting the School
Board figures, for 923 children.
926. The number of the scholars on the roll is 594 3
Two hundred and thirty boys, plus 143 girls, plus 220 infants, equal to 593 at
present.
927. According to the Blue Book of the London School Board, the number
of scholars on the roll was 594, and the actual attendance 480?
No doubt that was correct.
928. In addition to that, you have a night school
Yes.
929. Will you be good enough to point out on this map the exact site of your
schools
Hartland-road Boys' and Girls' School is opposite the church. The Infant
School is in Ferdinand-place.
930. Is that under your care 7
Yes.
931. That was returned at the time the statistics were calculated for the
London School Board as only partly efficient :
Now it is entirely efficient.
932. Since then you have made it entirely efficient?
Yes.
933. Does it receive the Government grant 2
It does.
934. That gives accommodation for how many children?
The figures of the School Board, for the whole number of the schools, are 923.
935. That includes the schools you have mentioned 2
Yes.
936. Will you state the number of children in your district for whom, accord-
ing to the School Board, accommodation should be provided ?
The School Board estimates that there are 2,904 children between three and
13 years of age in the district out of 13,500 population. That is more than one-
fifth of the population.
937. According to the School Board returns, the number of children requir–
ing accommodation is 2,011 ?
Two thousand nine hundred and four is the total number, without any
reduction being made, which shows a very large per-centage of the popu-
lation.
938. Are there any other elementary schools in the district besides your own 2
Not at present. There are two temporary Board schools.
939. Describe the class of children in your district; are any of the parents
well-to-do people *
There are a considerable number of tradesmen and other persons.
940. Are they the class of people who pay more than 9 d. a week for the
education of their children :
There are a considerable number of that class.
941. Would 336 children who are returned as scholars where a fee exists of
9 d., be above or below the mark :
Very much below; I took a certain number of the streets which are inhabited
by the better class of the inhabitants, such as tradesmen, and went through
those streets in the “Directory,” and found that there were 721 houses in those
streets. In the other streets there are a considerable number of houses, also
inhabited by people who do not require elementary Schools, and I should be in-
clined to claim at least 1,000 instead of 336.
942. Then deducting 336, and the other deductions, you put as 357 ?
I do not know what the other deductions are.
Rev. E. L. Cutts.
23rd May 1873.
* *
(119.) N 943. For
£98 MINUTES OF - EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT comMITTEE ON
* Rev. E.L. Cutts.
23rd May 1873.
•ºmsº
g43. For instance, children who are disabled?
I cannot dispute that figure, because I do not know what is contained in it;
therefore, I presume I must accept it.
944. According to the Board, the estimated accommodation required is
2,011 ? *
That, I think, is excessive.
945. You provide accommodation for 923
Yes.
946. Will you point out on the map, where the site is near the Prince of Wales'-
road, Haverstock-hill? - -
It is at the bottom of Craddock-street.
947. What is the nature of the population round there :
All round about there is a well-to-do population.
948. For how many is this school intended to be built
I can only assume, since the Board talks of accommodation for about 1,000,
and talks about two sites, that it is going to build two Schools for 500 each.
949. Do you know that that is intended to accommodate any other district
besides Block S.
I am not aware that it is. The whole of this population (referring to the Map).
is quite out of the question; it needs no Board school at all.
950. What is the average attendance of the number of the scholars?
The absences are about 18 per cent.
951. Duke of Cleveland.] Of the whole?
Yes.
952. That is small?
Yes.
953. Earl Beauchamp.] That only has reference to the children who are
enrolled as scholars?
Yes.
954. Of what character is the rest of the population of the district 2
Artisans, railway labourers, and people of that kind. Part of the population
is very migratory. During the past year, in the boys' School, taking that as a
specimen, there were 224 admitted, and rather more than that left.
955. Duke of Cleveland.] Nearly the whole
More than the whole ; so that they were continuously passing through the
school.
956. For how many months did they remain with you ?
I cannot state.
057. Earl Beauchamp.] Of what age were those ?
All ages. I am referring to the boys' school.
958. They were not merely leaving because their education was completed?
No ; because their parents were leaving the neighbourhood. There are at
present temporary Board schools in the block. Their estimates would be rather
worse than ours. The master told me that there were 340 on their roll, and
about 200 present.
959. In which school is that?
In the two temporary Board schools.
960. Is the site near the Prince of Wales'-road, which you pointed out, the
only site to be taken 2
There is another at Hawley-crescent.
96. . Is that to accommodate any other district besides your own
Not that I am aware of.
962. Will you state generally your views with regard to those sites ?
It seems to me that the site in the Prince of Wales'-road is quite unnecessary.
In the first place, there are not the children to fill it, and in the next place, if
there were the children, it is not in the position which would be required for them.
963. Why
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL or DER CONFIRMATION BILL. 99
963. Why not ; . . - .
It is out of the way. The poor population is at the southern end of the parish.
964. Will you describe the character of the southern part of Block W.?
There are nothing but respectable people there.
965. What is the southern part of Block Z.
That is the railway station, and good houses.
966. They are respectable people, and would pay 9 d. a week for the educa-
tion of their children 2
Yes, and a great deal more.
967. Is the whole of your district built over?
Very nearly. There are some large gardens which might possibly be taken
for building some time.
968. Is there any opportunity for a large increase in the population ?
.No.
969. That applies also to the Blocks W., T., and Z., which you have just been
referring to besides 2
In my neighbourhood, at all events.
970. What is the character of that part of Block O. which adjoins your
district 2 g
There are some poor houses in the northern part of Block O., in which there
are some school children.
971. Chairman.] That is a populous district 2
Yes, a poor, populous district.
972. Earl Beauchamp.] Where have the Board schools been opened :
One is at the east end of Hawley-road, and the other in Hawley-crescent
(pointing it out on the Map).
973. Do you know the number of children on the rolls of those schools :
The master told me that, altogether, there were 340, and that the average
attendance was 200.
974. What effect have the Board schools had on the existing schools in the
parish -
They have taken away, possibly, 60 of the children. I can give the names
of 54, and I have no doubt there are others who have left us for the Board
school, whose names we are not sure of.
975. Can you imagine any reason why they should leave your schools for the
Board school; such as being attracted by lower fees?
That is so in some cases.
976. Do you consider that the Elementary Education Act was passed in order
to enable persons who were paying for the education of their children 3d. per
week, to have them educated at I d. per week P
I should think not.
977, What are the fees in the Hawley-crescent Board school?
I do not know.
978. What are the fees in your schools
Sixpence and 4d. in the boys' and girls' schools, and 3d. and 2d. in the
infants' school. I should mention that we have 437 vacancies in our boys',
girls', and infants' Schools.
979. Duke of Cleveland.] Do you find any difficulty in securing the attendance
at the schools :
I can only say that we have that number of vacancies, and shall be very glad
to fill them up. We have accommodation for 437 more children than we have
in the schools.
980. I understood you to say that the vacancies in the Board schools are as
mumerous as yours :
Rev. E. L. Cutts.
*
23rd May 1873.
(119.) N 2 I do
100 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFoRE SELECT committee on
* * * * I do not know anything about that ; I was taking the number on their rolls,
23rd May 1873, and their average attendance.
* is sºmeºs =ºrum
– 981. What are the relative numbers ?
I am told by their schoolmaster that they have on the rolls 340, and that the
average attendance is 200.
982. How long have these schools been established?
I am not sure; I should think six or eight months.
983. Has the attendance increased or not?
I know very little of their schools. -
984. How long have your schools been established :
Twenty years.
985. Has the accommodation been increased of late years?
Not very recently.
986. Besides your schools, are there any schools of different denominations :
Not in that block. There was one Dissenting school which the Board has
taken as one of its temporary schools.
987. That was probably one of the British and Foreign schools
I cannot say.
988. Are there any Wesleyan schools?
Not in that block.
989. Nor Roman Catholic schools :
No.
990. What is the whole population ?
I estimate the population of the block at 13,500; the population of the
whole of the parish being 14,000.
991. Is your parish coterminous with the block?
Very nearly,
992. Lord Bishop of Winchester.] Have you any reason to imagine that in
your own schools there is any dissatisfaction among the people with their
conduct 7
Not at all.
993. To what do you attribute the vacancies 2
To the fact that a school which was a ragged school has been turned into an
infant school, leaving more room in the boys' and girls' schools which we have not
yet filled up, but which will probably be filled up in time.
994. Do you believe that if general powers were given to the Poor Law
Boards to enforce the attendance of children, that your schools would be then
filled up !
I should think it probable. My only reason for hesitating in giving that
answer is that there has been a School Board visitor at work in the parish for
some months, and he has not filled up our vacancies.
goş. Therefore your experience would be, as far as you are able to test it,
that it would not be filled up 2 -
That we have room which requires filling up.
996. And that compulsion will not fill it?
No.
997. Duke of Cleveland.]. The School Boards have compulsory powers ?
Yes, and have been exercising them.
998. Chairman.] In that neighbourhood
Yes.
999. Earl Beauchamp.] To send children not merely to their own schools,
but to other schools : -
Yes.
1 ooo. Duke
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 101
1000. Duke of Cleveland.] Are the schools under the School Board destined
for rather a poorer class of persons than those ?
I think it was originally assumed that they were.
1001. Because the fee is lower
Yes.
1002. From your experience, do you think that the middle classes, or those
who pay rather higher fees are more inclined to send their children to schools
where the fee is rather higher than to schools where the fee is at the lowest point?
I should say that some of the respectable artisans prefer paying more.
1003. I suppose that the education is rather superior ?
Yes; and they get rid of a lower class of children.
1004. Is it a sort of feeling of caste §
Yes.
1005. Lord Lawrence.] How long have the School Board been exercising
compulsory powers ?
I am not sure. I should think five or six months.
1006. Are you not aware that the Board, in putting in force these compulsory
powers, have dealt with the parents in a tender way, so to speak?
They brought some people before the magistrates the other day.
1007. Is it not the case that they are exercising them in a tender way, and
that they have not put the Act in force to the extent which they are empowered
to do?
Can they do anything more than bring parents before magistrates who refuse
to send their children to school
1008. Do they bring all parents before magistrates who refuse to send their
children to school :
They have done so in many cases.
1009. Do they not in many cases try the effect, as a tentative measure, of
summoning parents before the managers of schools, or before the divisional
members ?
I have no knowledge on that subject.
1010. You are not aware that they have not put in force the compulsory
powers to the full extent that they could 7 *.
I am not aware that they have not done so.
1 on 1. Should you think that they have put in force the compulsory clauses
to the full extent of their power'
I know that the School Board have been using compulsion.
1 of 2. Is it not the case that in many instances they have not brought the
parents before the magistrates?
I have no knowledge of that.
1o 13. Earl Beauchamp.] There are two sites in your district, one near the
Prince of Wales'-road, and the other in Hawley-crescent; do you think they are
necessary 2
I have no hesitation in speaking about the one in the Prince of Wales'-road,
and I think it is very possible that the other may not be necessary.
1014. You consider the one in the Prince of Wales'-road quite unnecessary 2
Quite. There are 1,000 children who should be deducted as not needing
elementary schools, instead of 336; and seeing that, although the Board has a
temporary school capable of holding 200, we still have 437 vacancies; I think
that looks as if we do not want so large an amount of additional accommodation.
1 on 5. Lord Lawrence.] I understood you to say that you have turned a
ragged or free school into an infants' school?
Yes.
1o 16. What has become of the children who used to attend that ragged
school P
Some of them are still in the school, paying their pence.
Rev. E. L. Cutts.
23rd May 1873. ‘..
(119.) N 3 1 or 7. Earl
102 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE on
\
Rev. E. L. Cutts:
23rd May 1873.
Mr. J. Watson.
1o 17. Earl Beauchamp.] What is the fee paid in the infants' school?
Threepence and twopence.
1018. Lord Lawrence.] Is there not a class in your district who can afford to
pay 3 d. and 2 d. 2
They pay 6 d. and 4 d.
1919. Duke of Cleveland.]. Sixpence for the boys and fourpence for the girls?
Sixpence for boys and girls, and fourpence where there is more than one in
a family, and in cases of poverty.
1020. Lord Lawrence.] Are there not a class in your district by whom those
fees could not be paid 2
No doubt.
1021. Are you aware that the Board, in applying for power to take land in
your district, already have a certain portion of that land?
I am not aware of it. In the case of Hawley-crescent I should think not.
They must take down some houses. -
1022. I understand that the Board have agreed with the leaseholders, and
partly with the freeholders, only to exercise compulsory powers to obtain a por-
tion of the reversionary interest?
I am not aware of that.
1023. You can support your evidence by that of other managers if the Com-
mittee like to call them
Yes. I have gone carefully into the figures, and I am quite prepared to
verify them.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr. JAMES WATSON, is called in ; and Examined, as follows:
1024. Lord Lawrence.] You are are a member of the London School Board 2
I am. tº
1025. And chairman of the Statistical Committee *
Yes.
1026. You represent Marylebone on the Board 2
I do.
1027. You have heard Mr. Cutts evidence 2
I have.
º Will you give what you consider as the Board's answer to what he has
stated
The site in Hawley-crescent to which Mr. Cutts referred is one intended for
the district in which his schools are placed. There is a deficiency in that dis-
trict of 1,098. We propose to build schools there for 720, leaving still a margin,
in addition to our present allowance, of 25 per cent. The actual number of
children is very much larger ; but, after making deductions, which your Lordships
have already had explained, we propose still to allow a margin of 25 per cent.
children there, and to build a school for 720 children, in order to accommodate
the deficiency in that district. The actual figures are 1,098, and we propose
to build for 720. I may say that we have already opened temporary schools
there, and have found that we have not very seriously injured the attendance at
the schools of our neighbours. I have before me the last return sent to me by
the schoolmaster, dated 13th May, in which he states that the number in average
attendance at these schools is 37 l. Mr. Cutts had only been partly informed
when he said that the average attendance was 200. At the three schools for
boys, girls, and infants, there are 371 at present in average attendance. Mr.
Cutts has stated, very candidly, that it has had a small influence on his schools,
to the extent of 50; but it is plain that we have increased the general
- attendance
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 103
attendance at the schools of that neighbourhood, I may fairly say, 350
children. The fee in these schools is 1 d. and 2 d.
1029. Duke of Cleveland.] According to the class 2 -
One penny for infants, and twopence for boys and girls. We have lately had an
opportunity of testing the class of children who attend that school. I think it
may be useful for the Committee to know what is shown to exist there. The
master called up a class, and asked the first boy, who was a boy of 11 years of
age, “Have you ever been to school?” “Yes, sir.” “What school have you
been at : "... “ St. Mark’s.” So he was entered on the register as a boy belong-
ing to St. Mark's. We thought we would probe him a little further, so I put the
question to him, “How long were you at St. Marks?” “Three weeks.”
“Were you ever at any other school”, “No, sir.” Now that boy was a very
fair illustration. The master told me that he had a number of similar boys in
his school. He said that he has fully proved that they were not able to pass the
second standard, and I do not know that they would pass fairly in the first. I
merely mention this for the information of the Committee, in order to show the
class of children we are now gathering into these temporary schools.
1030. Lord Lawrence.] Have you any observations to make with regard to
the other site which Mr. Cutts mentioned 7
With regard to the other site to which Mr. Cutts has referred in the Prince
of Wales'-road, that is not intended for the neighbourhood of his schools.
There has been a new district spreading and progressing rapidly in the
northern part of the parish of St. Pancras, called Gospel Oak Fields. I am
almost afraid to mention the amount of increase within the last 10 years; that
is in Blocks S., T., and W.
1031. Where is the bulk of the population ?
I should say in Block T., a large portion of Block V, and of course S.,
being an older settled district, is very largely peopled. We have got the nomi-
nal returns, showing that at the time of our census the deficiency, after making
all our reductions, in S., was 1,098 ; the deficiency in T. was 2,345, and that there
was an excess of 767 in V., in consequence of the schools being mostly built
in W. But since that time Her Majesty’s inspector has gone round the second
time, and has disqualified one or two schools in that neighbourhood, especially
a large secular school, capable of accommodating nearly 900; so that the defi-
ciency stated in our books is very largely increased. I am quite certain that we
have not overtaken one-half the deficiency of that northern part of the parish.
But in the meantime we propose to build two schools, in the hope that eventually
that large school will be raised to the standard of efficiency, and save us the
necessity of providing for the provision it affords.
1032. Earl Beauchamp.j Does it not occur to you, that if there is a deficiency
in W. and T., it would be better to put the school in the centre of the population, so
as to provide for, rather than cover Block S.
We have done so. I should state that these lines, about which so much has
been said, were laid down by the School Board for the purpose of localising the
existing school provision and school population. We received our returns from
the Registrar General en bloc, but it was utterly useless to us in a district like
London (London is called a district in the Act of Parliament with 10 divisions);
it was utterly useless for the purpose of ascertaining where deficiency existed,
and it became necessary that we should localise both schools and children
in order to know where provision existed, and where the school population
was ; hence the preparation of our Blue Book. Then the Board gave the statistical
committee careful instructions, that when we entered into calculations for the
purpose of providing sites, we were to take into consideration not only the
existing statistics of the block or sub-division we were dealing with, but the
accommodation, whether in excess or in deficiency, of the blocks immediately
contiguous to it, unless, as the phrase is, they are separated by a crowded thorough-
fare or a dangerous crossing, such as a railway or canal. That accounts for the
curious shape of many of these districts. They were prepared by the statistical
committee, with the assistance of the local members and others, who, like Mr.
Young, know every foot of the localities. We proposed in the case in question
to provide in the meantime for the deficiency in Block T. two schools, one of them
your Lordships will notice under the letter T. in the map, and this is the other
Mr. J. Watson,
• 23rd May 1873,
(119.) N 4 (pointing
I ()4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
sº Mr. J. Watson.
... a 3rd May 1873.
(pointing it out on the Map). The reason why this block in Prince of Wales'-
road, or Haverstock-hill as it is called, was taken was, that in the north of O. on
the opposite side of Hampstead-road, the railway company have built a number
of cottages, where the children of their servants live, and we thought that if
we could get a site like this, it would have its chief access from T., but
it would also be available for the children of this district of O. We
should thus meet the want of school accommodation here better, probably, than
by coming further north, where, as I have stated to your Lordships, a great
deal of school provision, more or less efficient, exists. We, therefore, thought
that we could not select a better spot for meeting the necessities of the im-
mediately surrounding districts than where we have put this school, but our main
reason was, that near the southern boundary of T. there is a large population
of poor children. There is no provision for them. I have every confidence that
when that school is opened it will be filled mainly by the children in the im-
mediate neighbourhood; though this is a red boundary, it is not a dangerous
crossing. It will also save us the necessity of building a school in the northern
part of Block O.
1033. Does it not appear to you, that if you want to accommodate the children
of T., you had better put the school in Block T. ?
I think, as a rule, that arrangement is desirable.
1034. Do I understand you to say that the population at the southern end
of T., and the northern part of S., is of a very poor character
I do not, of my own knowledge, know that. I should say it is of a poor
though not of a very poor character. I think with Mr. Cutts it is of the lower
middle class.
io95. Are they people who would pay the fees of 3 d. and 4 d. without
difficulty for the education of their children :
I think many of them would.
1036. The majority ?
I do not think a large number would.
1037. What class of people reside in Maitland-villas and Maitland Park-road,
which is the southern part of T. P -
I should think that we should not take them into account at all.
1038. But whether you would take them into account or not, be kind enough
to answer my question, what class of population inhabits Maitland-villas?
I should say they are somewhat of the better class.
1039. What is the character of the houses in Maitland Park-road 2
I beg your pardon ; I was thinking of the houses bordering on the Prince of
Wales'-road. Maitland Park-road is inhabited by a superior class.
1040. What is the class of people who inhabit Powis-place in that district 2
I cannot identify that.
1041. That is part of Haverstock-hill?
I do not know it. I refer rather to Nelson-street and its neighbourhood, where
the poor people live. That is a little to the north of the Prince of Wales' road.
1042. Is it near the Tailors' Institution 2
It is somewhat to the east of the Tailors' Institution, and in the district
leading up to Gospel Oak Fields.
1043. Then if there is a deficiency in Gospel Oak Fields, is that not a reason
for putting the school there, rather than coming among the tolerably well-to-do
population, who can pay for their children?
I think we shall be obliged to build schools there, in addition to the site we
propose.
1044. May I ask whether the statistical committee, in making their calcula-
tion, did not take into account the existing educational arrangements?
Not if by the existing educational arrangements your Lordship means the
division of parishes and ecclesiastical districts; we did not take them into account.
I may perhaps explain the reason. Many of these ecclesiastical divisions are
tortuous, and not in the least regarded by the parents of children who would
send their children to school. In one case that I remember, on the south-
eastern
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 105
eastern boundary, the division of two parishes runs right through the middle of
a large School.
1045. When you have a tolerably homogeneous district supplied with its own
schools, do you take into account the existing educational traditions of the
locality ?
I think we have taken into account these schools, and every child attending
them.
1046. But you have not taken into account the existing educational traditions
of the district 2
I do not think we have.
1047. I think you are the chairman of the statistical committee of the School
Board 2 -
Yes.
1048. As such, of course you are familiar with the whole of the conclusions
which that committee have arrived at :
I am, more or less. -
1049. You know the Lambeth case?
I do.
1050. You remember that in that case the school that is locally situated in
Block F. was entirely ignored in calculating what was right and proper to be
done as regards H. and I. Does not it seem to you that if it were right to
ignore the traditional arrangements which had existed for a long time, and to
adhere to the imaginary sub-divisions of the red lines in the case of Lambeth,
that it would not be right to disregard the redlines in this instance by proposing
to put a school in Block S. which is for the accommodation of children in
Block T. in Marylebone 2
I think I stated to your Lordships that we in no case consider that these
lines are arbitrary boundaries. Our instructions were definite and precise, that
in every case we were not only to take into account the condition of the block
in question, but its neighbours on either side of it, and we have done so in
Lambeth. - - -
1051. Lord Lawrence.] Then, as I understand you to say, the Board did not
ignore those schools of Canon Gregory !
We did not ignore them. Having regard to their capacity and situation, we
took them into account in considering the provision for the entire district ; we
ignored the ecclesiastical boundary.
1052. Earl Beauchamp.] You spoke of the railway company's servants; what
class of railway servants are those 2
Guards, fitters, and engineers.
1053. Superior artisans, in fact 7
Yes; the place where they reside is called Railway Cottages.
1054. But a guard and engineer are superior to the ordinary London labourer,
are they not ?
I am afraid none of them pay more than 9.d. for the education of their children.
º What provision do you make in the Board schools that you have
opened -
We make provision for all children under 9.d. for whom no accommodation
exists. These schools in this district have not yet been constructed, and we
have, therefore, not settled their arrangements.
1056. In the Board schools that are open what fees are taken 2
For the most part, having to deal with a very poor population, we have placed
our fees very low.
1057. Are there any schools where you have fixed higher fees?
We have a school in the Tower Hamlets at 6d., which I believe is a very
prosperous School.
1958. Will you be good enough to point out where the railway people reside 2
The provision for them is quite subsidiary.' It is chiefly for the children living
in the south-western portion of Block T. that we have made provision. We were
Mr. J. Watson.
23rd May 1873.
(119.) O glad
106 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. J. Watson.
23rd May 1873.
,-
glad of the opportunity of getting a site available for people living in the northern
part of O. I ought to say that that was done at the express request of the visitor.
The person whose business it is to send the children to school said to me, “It is
no use, Mr. Watson, my going there, because the people tell me that they have
no schools to send their children to.”
joj9. Is this one of the head visitors :
Yes. '
1060. Can you tell the Committee how many paid visitors there are in the
Marylebone district
I think about 20.
1061. What would their salaries be?
The men get 80 l. a year, and the women 55 l. or 60l. a year.
1062. That is to begin with ? *
They none of them exceed that now. They will be raised eventually if they
deserve it.
1063. As you are chairman of the statistical committee, I should like to ask
you a question as to the number attending the Board schools. I see by your
quarterly return the number is stated to be 2,6883
That is a matter entirely in the hands of the school management committee.
It does not pass into the hands of the statistical committee.
1 off4. You are not familiar with that branch of the subject at all?
No ; I should not be able to give the committee reliable information.
1065. Lord Lawrence.] Do I understand you to say clearly, that in no case
did the Board. in coming to an arrangement as to selecting a site, ignore any
schools in the vicinity of that site
To the best of my knowledge, never.
1066. I mean by that that they took into consideration every existing school?
Every school. I know that in the borough with which I am specially con-
nected we were very careful in that respect. No better proof can be obtained than
the fact, that the vicar of the parish has endorsed everything we have done.
1067. When gentlemen connected with education in any district of London
expressed themselves dissatisfied with the proposed arrangements of the Board,
and asked to come before the Board and show cause for their dissatisfaction,
did the Board hear them or not
The Board invariably heard them, and remitted the matter for very careful
and minute investigation to the statistical committee. I may be allowed to
add, that in more instances than one we found reason to alter the judgment
which we had previously come to. One well known case is the Bath-street
School, where we did make a very important concession.
1068. Chairman.] That was in consequence of these representations :
That was in consequence of these representations. We have no motive for
doing anything else than making as economical provision as we possibly can,
Although we have received instructions from the Educational Department to
provide for all the children, we have considered it sufficient to provide for a
little more than two-fifths of the children whom we should be otherwise bound
to provide for.
1069. Earl Beauchamp.] You do not mean to tell the Committee that you
received instructions from the Educational Department to provide for every
child P
Between 3 and 13 years of age not otherwise provided for.
1070. To provide school accommodation, or school places 2
To provide school places.
1 of 1. Then you have disregarded the instructions of the Educational De-
partment : -
I am afraid we have, but with their consent. There is a recommendation to
provide for 100,600 school places, and I by no means understand that our work
is finished ; indeed, it cannot be.
1072. Then you will go as far as Mr. Sharp, who gave evidence this morning
to
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 107
to the effect that his interpretation of the Act is that an area of eight square
feet ought to be provided for each child in existence between the ages of 3
and 13 not otherwise provided for * -
I should think that the Educational Department would attend to any
recommendation from us short of that provision, but these are the instructions
sent to us. The Act says that we shall receive the requisition from the Depart-
ment which we have received, and these are the instructions from the Depart-
ment.
no73. Will you be good enough to read the 5th Section of the Act 2
“There shall be provided for every school district a sufficient amount of
accommodation in public elementary Schools (as hereinafter defined) available
for all the children resident in such district, for whose elementary education
efficient and suitable provision is not otherwise made, and where is an in-
sufficient amount of such accommodation in this Act referred to as ‘public
school accommodation, the deficiency shall be supplied in manner provided by
Mr. J. Watson.
23rd May 1873.
*ººms
this Act.” I understand that to mean that we are to provide for those children.
1074. Notwithstanding that being your interpretation of the Act, you have
exercised your own discretion and disregarded it, and you do not propose to
provide for more than two-fifths?
In the meantime we propose to provide for two-fifths.
1075, Lord Lawrence, In not providing the whole accommodation which we
consider eventually necessary, you do not understand that the Board are in any
way barred from providing additional accommodation if it is found necessary
to do so *
Certainly not, the growth of the suburban districts is a matter of motoriety.
1076. When you say that the Department have directed us to supply
accommodation for all the children, for whom we consider that accommodation
is not already provided, you do not consider that it was an absolute order that
we should exercise no discretion. We understand and we conceive that that
gives us a power of providing given accommodation, and that within that direction
we may exercise our judgment 7
Clearly.
1077. Earl Beauchamp.] But either you are bound by the Act to provide ac-
commodation, or you are not. In answer to a former question, you stated that
you coincided with Mr. Sharp's interpretation of the Act, but now you say that
you are not going to comply with it?
Not at once. We do not consider ourselves shut up and not able to do it in
instalments. In the meantime, we propose an instalment of 100,600.
1078. Have you had any experience as a school manager yourself
I have some little experience since I became a member of the Board.
1079. Not before ?
Not before. When the official survey by Her Majesty's inspectors was made
they returned us the number of schools that were semi-efficient, that is to say,
that did not come up to the standard of efficiency, and therefore would have
been disqualified. But upon our solicitation at the time that grace should be
given these schools, and that they should not be shut out from the calculations
of the Board, they conceded that to us at once, and did give it at the time, and
the result was, that a large proportion of these schools were eventually admitted
to the standard of efficiency.
loSo. Is it not the case that, notwithstanding the grace that was given that
school representing accommodation for something like 20,000 have been offici-
ally rejected as inefficient 2
Quite so; in that very district there are two schools, one of them a large school.
accommodating 900 children.
1081. The school of which you speak is not in Block S.
It is in Block T. -
1082. Lord Lawrence.] According to the return, 20,000 children is the num-
ber for whom accommodation is required 2 -
Yes; I may say that in the parish of St. Pancras the number of children is
(119.) O 2 17,000.
I08 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. J. Watson.
23rd May 1873.
17,000. The provision that we propose to make is less than 7,000, so that there
is a large margin.
1083. Earl Beauchamp.] May I ask you what you propose to do so much for 2
Because we hope eventually to get these schools up to the standard of efficiency,
and save expense to the ratepayers. *
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
[Mr. Croad, at the request of Lord Lawrence, puts in the following Correspondence,
which is ordered by the Committee to be inserted on the Minutes :-)
Copy of CoRRespondence between the Education Department and the School Board.
Education Department to Chairman of School Board.
My Lord, 20 April 1871.
I HAVE submitted to the Committee of Council your Lordship's letters of the 30th of
March and the 6th of April, with the various enclosures in the latter communications.
My Lords are glad to learn that the Board have been able within the prescribed time
to obtain the school returns called for under the 67th Section of the Education Act; and
they are prepared to give effect to the wishes of the Board in regard to the proceedings to
# now taken for the completion of the inquiry into the school provision of the metropolitan
iStrict.
The object of the inquiry will be to ascertain with respect to each of the divisions of
that district,
1. The number of children within its limits for whom means of elementary education
º be provided (a) between the ages of three and five; and (b) between the ages of
5 and 13.
2. The provision to meet the requirements of these children (a) already made by
efficient schools, or (b) likely to be made by schools, either contemplated or in course of
erection.
3. The deficiency (if any) in the supply of efficient elementary education, as shown by
comparing 1 and 2. -
4. What schools are required to meet this deficiency.
5. The localities in which such schools should be provided.
My Lords understand it to be the wish of the Board that the Education Department
should undertake so much of the inquiry as relates to the efficiency of schools now in
* but that the remainder of the inquiry should be conducted by the officers of the
O2.I'Ol.
They, therefore, propose to entrust the examination into the efficiency of the existing
schools to a staff, consisting of nine of Her Majesty's inspectors, who, on the 1st of May
will enter on the charge of the several districts of the metropolis. They will be assisted
in this duty by inspectors of returns, who will be shortly appointed by this department
under the 71st Section of the Education Act.
The returns forwarded by your Lordship will be placed in the hands of Her Majesty's
Inspectors, who will be instructed to furnish my Lords as soon as possible with a report
upon the efficiency of each of the schools from which a return has been received. These
reports will enable the department to form an opinion as to the extent and efficiency of
the school accommodation already provided in London.
The Board, meanwhile, will obtain information as to the amount and character of the
public school accommodation which is required by the metropolis.
So soon as these distinct parts of the inquiry are completed, a comparison of the results
thus obtained by two independent authorities will enable some trustworthy conclusions to
be formed as to the extent of the deficiency to be supplied, and the best means of sup-
lving it. -
p %. ºidering these points, my Lords will be glad to be aided by a general report from
the School Board, to whom they will communicate the reports of the inspectors on the
individual schools visited by them.
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 109
Education Department to School Board.
1 May 1872.
THE Education Department have carefully considered the very able and exhaustive
report on the school provision of the metropolis, which has been prepared by your Board
in accordance with the request addressed to them, on the 20th of April 1871.
I am directed to inform you that their Lordships agree to the proposal that the Board
should provide school accommodation for 100,600 children, as recommended in their
report.
REPORT of Inspector Sharpe to Education Department.
15 February 1873.
I HAVE carefully considered the sites for new schools which the School Board for
London propose to purchase compulsorily, as set forth in Table A., Nos. 19 and 31 of their
plan of sites.
I understand that they have abandoned the sites Nos. 23, 29, 31.
As regards the other sites, schools in all their neighbourhoods are urgently required to
meet a pressing deficiency of accommodation, with the exception of
No. 21. The deficiency in Block H. is only 468. In a neighbouring block, I., there is
a larger deficiency of 710. If the present site is retained, a smaller school for girls and
infants only would be sufficient for the wants of the immediate neighbourhood, but it
would be preferable to select another site in the neighbouring Block I.
In Table B., No. 59 refers to a school already transferred to the Board. A petition
has been sent to their Lordships about the compulsory purchase of this site; but I under-
stand from your letter of February 11th, that as the School Board does not propose to
enlarge the transferred building, that case does not come within the intention of that
letter.
©
Education Department to School Board.
17 February 1873.
I AM directed to forward, for the information of your Board, a copy of a report which
has been received from Her Majesty's inspector, Mr. Sharpe, on the proposed sites for
schools in the Lambeth division. I am to request that my Lords may be favoured with
the remarks of the Board thereupon.
School Board to Education Department.
1 March 1873.
I BEG to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 17th ultimo, enclosing a copy
of a report received from Her Majesty's inspector, Mr. Sharpe, on sites for schools which
it is proposed to schedule this year in the Lambeth division.
In reply, I am directed to state that the suggestion of Mr. Sharpe, that if the present
site in Block H. be retained, a smaller school should be built upon it for girls and infants
only, and that a second site should be selected in the neighbouring Block I. in order to
provide for the deficiency in this latter subdivision, has been carefully considered.
The site referred to is situated on the boundary line between the two districts, and was
selected on account of its convenience to supply the deficiency in both blocks.
The committee, therefore, would experience difficulty both in point of time and expense
if they looked out for a second site.
The schools, however, are not yet planned, and the amount of accommodation required
for boys, girls, and infants respectively, will be carefully examined when the time comes.
Education Department to School Board.
6 March 1873.
I AM directed to state that your letter of the 1st of March has been referred to Her
Majesty's Inspector, Mr. Sharpe, who reports, “The School Board has supplied me with
corrected statistics; it appears that the greater deficiency exists in Block H.; they have
also divided the deficiency in the proper proportion of boys, girls, and infants. Under
these circumstances I see no objection to the proposed site, No. 21. As the case was
first stated, it was proposed to build roughly for 1,000 children, including three depart-
ments in blocks, where there is an actual surplus of accommodation for boys.”
23rd May 1873.
It is proposed to
build for 1,000.
(119.) O 3
I 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Mr. I. J. Booth.
23rd May 1873.
Mr. ISAAC JAMES BOOTH, is called in; and Examined, as follows:
1084. Earl Beauchamp.] I THINK you are Accountant to Ind, Coope, & Co. *
Yes.
1085. You are also a vestryman for the parish of Mile End?
Yes.
Mr. Croad.] I may mention that the Rhodeswell-road site is abandoned,
and therefore may be struck out of the Bill. The name of Cayley-street is
changed to Richards-street.
1086. Earl Beauchamp.] Will you be good enough to state the nature of your
.bjections to the Cayley-street site, in which it is proposed by the School Board
to build a school for 1,000 children 2 º
The objection that I raise to the Cayley-street site is, that it is a site very
close to an existing school, called the St. John's National School.
1087. Where is the St. John's National School?
St. John's National School is immediately to the north of the site marked as
letter O. on the map ; it is near the figures 45.
Lord Lawrence.] We do not propose to build for 1,000 children; we are
only going to build for 750.
1088. Earl Beauchamp.] How far is the proposed site from St. John's School?
I should think hardly a furlong and a half. It must, if opened, have a very
detrimental effect upon any existing school, especially if they pursue the same
course as to fees which they pursued with regard to the Carr-street School,
which they have taken as a temporary school, where the week after they took
it they lowered the fees from 2d. to 1 d.
io99. I believe that St. John's School consists of one school-room and class-
room, containing accommodation for 656 children ; is that so
I think that is about the size of the school.
1ogo. And the average attendance of children is 535 :
There are vacancies, I think, for about 150 children.
1091. Can you state the population of children for Block O.
According to the Census Tables the number of children in Block O. is 3,029;
that is, according to the School Board Report.
1092. Lord Lawrence.] On whose behalf do you attend ?
I have been asked to come here, having taken an interest in the education
movement in Mile End Old Town, and having taken some active part last year.
log 3. By whom have you been asked to come 2
By Mr. Roberts.
1094. Who is he?
He is connected with the National Society.
1095. Duke of Cleveland.] In what capacity have you been employed; are
you an amateur !
I am accountant to Ind, Coope, & Co. I have been a pupil teacher in my
time.
io96. In the National Society :
In a school in the Tower Hamlets.
1997. Lord Lawrence.] You appear, you say, on the part of Mr. Roberts
I do not appear on behalf of anyone; I have been asked to come here.
1098. Earl Beauchamp.] Where do you reside?
I reside in Mile End, in Block M.
1090. Duke of Cleveland.] What is your present employment :
I am accountant to Ind, Coope, & Co.
1 100. Lord

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 111
11oo. Lord Lawrence.] Is the clergyman of the parish in which that block
lies opposed to the proposed school of which you complain
I have no information on that point.
1 101. You do not know anything about it º
No, except that he objected to the original site, which has now been aban-
doned.
1102. Is the clergyman opposed to the site upon which we intend to build a
school?
My chief objection is to the Soames' Fields site.
Mr. Croad.] Perhaps I may be allowed to state that the site to which
Mr. Booth says he objects, namely, the Soanes' Fields site, has been pur-
chased; therefore there is no necessity that that should be included in the
Bill.
The Witness.] It is a very important site.
Earl Beauchamp.] Then I think we need not trouble you any further.
The Witness.] I understand that most of these sites have been pur-
chased,
The Chairman states that the Committee are of opinion that the Witness
has no locus standi. w
The Reverend GEORGE ALLEN, is called in ; and Examined, as follows:
1 1 03. Earl Beauchamp.] I BELIEVE you are the Honorary Secretary of the
Islington Church School Society 2
I am. *
*
1104. And also vicar of the parish of St. Thomas, Islington
Yes.
Mr. Croad.] I understand that Mr. Allen appears with reference to the
Roman-road site; the Roman-road site has been abandoned. Since we
scheduled that to the Bill we have ascertained that the gentleman in the
district who was proposing to build the school will now build it; therefore
the Roman-road site may be struck out of the Bill.
1105. Duke of Cleveland (to the Witness).] That is the site with respect to
which you appear :
That is one of the cases.
1 106. Where is the Roman-road 2
In A. X., my Lord ; I appear against the Anglers' Gardens site, as the Secre-
tary of the Islington Church School Society.
1 107. What block is that:
It extends from A. J. to A. R.
11 o'S. Earl Beauchamp.] The site of Anglers' Gardens is, I believe, in Block
A. M. P
Yes.
1 109. Will you be good enough to state your objection to that site?
We wish to have taken into consideration the blocks extending from A. J. to
A. R., excluding, for obvious reasons, A. Q. We find that in that group of blocks
there is a deficiency of 1,388 children in certain of those blocks; but in certain
others we find that there is an excess of 1,430; therefore we say that, taking
the whole of these contiguous blocks, one with the other, there is sufficient
accommodation, and no need whatever to put these schools into A. M. We
contend that A. L. should be grouped with A. M., and the other blocks I have
mentioned, instead of being grouped with blocks which include Block T., right
on the other side of the borough of Finsbury; that is simply the case which we
wish to put before the Committee.
\
Mr. I. J. Bouth.
23rd May 1873.
Rev. G. Allen.
*
(119.) O 4 1 11 o. The
l 12 . MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. G. Allen.
23rd May 1873.
111o. The School Board propose to build for how many 2
For 720.
Mr. Croad.] We have applied to the department since to increase it to
1,000.
The Witness.] These blocks are all contiguous, namely, A.J., A. K., A. L.,
A. M., A. N., A. O., A. P., and A. R. We find that with the present accommo-
dation there is an excess in present accommodation of 42 children. Adopting
the argument of Mr. Watson, if it is meant by the blocks to localise the
work, I think we have a very sound argument for saying that A. L. should
be maintained in contiguity with A. M., and not be carried over to form
a block in conjunction with T. In A. L. there is an excess at present of 786;
A. L. is connected with a series of blocks, of which this T. is one, and is
crossed by the main thoroughfare of Upper-street, Islington, and comes
very nearly to King's Cross; we cannot understand why A. L. should be
thrown into that block, and not connected with A. M., where they propose
to build these schools. I have worked one block into the other. We think
that they will seriously interfere with the existing schools in that neigh-
bourhood.
1111. You have taken the figures from the Blue Book of the School Board?
Yes; A. L. in the London School Board returns is thrown into connection with
the block in which T. occurs; T. is right on the other side.
1112. Is there any homogeneity between all the blocks from A. J. to A. R.,
except A. Q. 7
We consider so; there is no boundary difficulty.
1 113. Are they in one parish 7
They are all in the parish of Islington; they include several ecclesiastical
districts.
1 114. Is there any homogeneity between A. L. and T. ?
Not the slightest; that is our argument. We say that A. L. is on this side
(referring to the Map). There is Upper-street; and there you get right away to
the other side, towards King's Cross. -
1 115. Have any children from Block T. been in the habit of frequenting
schools in Block A. L.
I should think not ; it is almost inconceivable. We say there may be a neces-
sity for this particular school somewhere else; but we deny that there is any
necessity for a school close to those districts.
16. Your contention is, that if there is a deficiency of school accommoda-
tion, these schools should be put where the school accommodation is deficient,
and not where it is in excess :
Exactly. Instructions were given to take into account the excess or deficiency
in the neighbouring Blocks A. L. and A. M., according to Mr. Watson's evidence.
1 117. What fees are charged in the existing schools?
There are some free schools in existence at the present time, I believe; the fees
are as low as 2 d. in the paying schools.
1 118. Are the Committee to understand you as saying that they do not exceed
2 d. 2
Twopence is the lowest.
1 19. Rising in some cases higher, I presume 3
Yes, rising in some cases to 6 d. and up to 9 d. ; that would not apply to a
number of children in any given school, but only a few.
1 120. Duke of Cleveland.] Have you excluded those from your considera–
tion ? -
There are very few children in the schools in those blocks paying 9 d.
1121. Lord Lawrence.] Have you made any representation to the School
Board against this proposed site :
In company with two clerical brethren, one of whom is a brother secretary of
this society, we went to the London School Board, and stated to one of the
officers
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 113
officers whom we saw there that we could not understand the grouping of A. L.,
at least we could not understand the arrangement made to build these
schools; we were told that A. L. certainly would be found in some other
grouping; we then very naturally inquired in what group A. L. would be found ;
we then discovered that it would be found in Block T.
1122. Do you know the name of the gentleman to whom you made this
representation ?
Mr. Isett.
1123. When was it that you made this representation ?
About two or three weeks ago.
1124. Why did you not make this representation at the time the arrange-
ment was made 3
Because we had not had the case so forcibly brought before us; as Secre-
taries of this body we have only recently taken up this Anglers' Gardens
Ca,S62.
1125. Earl Beauchamp.] May I ask you when the numerators were perambu-
lating the district and ascertaining what accommodation would be required, did
they consult the existing educational authorities with regard to the proper
method of supply, the deficiency, if any
Not as to the proper method; they simply asked for the number of children
in the schools.
1126. Nor were the existing managers consulted at all, as to the localities
where the schools should be placed?
Not in the slightest degree. We had to find this matter out for ourselves;
therefore if there has been any delay in the matter, the blame does not rest with
us in that respect.
i 127. Duke of Cleveland.] The Bill has come from the House of Commons !
We can only deal with it in the way in which it is carried out by the London
School Board.
I 128. Lord Lawrence." How long is it since you knew that the School Board
intended to erect a school of that character 2
About three months.
1129. When the Board were about to make their selection, did not they
put a notice to that effect on the church doors?
Not that I observed.
1130. In the Act of Parliament, is it laid down that that is the way in which
the Board are bound to give notice to all parties 7
The only answer I can give to that is, that of course I am not personally
interested in the Anglers' Gardens School, therefore I should not notice the
reference, not knowing at that time all the particulars; therefore this question
had better be addressed to the clergyman of the district in which Anglers'
Gardens School is situated, because he will probably be aware of the steps which
were taken.
1131. Earl Beauchamp.] In fact, you are a very busy man, and have not
time to read all the notices which may be affixed to the church doors 2
That is so.
1132. Lord Lawrence.] Nevertheless, if the London School Board places upon
the church doors the notices which they are bound to do by the Act, without
which their acts would be illegal, is it not the duty of those who are interested
in the matter, and who have sufficient time to do so, to go to the Board and
make any representations which they wish to make 2
I venture to say, that the local clergyman did, but there are no means by
which I, for example, not knowing anything about that neighbourhood in par-
ticular, could know whether that was a site which would be required to be
brought before the Committee.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Rev. G. Allen.
23rd May 1873.
(119.) P
114 MINUTEs of Evid ENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON .
Rev. L. Stanham.
23rd May 1873.
The Reverend LOUIS STANHAM, is called in ; and Examined, as follows :
1133. Chairman.] ARE you the Incumbent of St. Bartholomew's, Islington P
I am. j
1 134. You have I believe been to the School Board with reference to this
matter P - -
I saw the statistical secretary in November last.
1135. When was the notice affixed on the church door 2
I am not aware of the exact time when the notice was affixed to the
church door.
1136. Your attention was called to it and you went at once to the London
School Board about it? wº *
Yes, to the statistical secretary.
1 137. When you made your complaint, what information did you obtain
That there were certain blocks grouped together; A. J., A. K., A. M., A. N.,
A. O., A. P., and A. R., leaving out A. L. It was only about a fortnight ago
that I ascertained the system on which the School Board proceeded in grouping
those blocks. -
1 138. What is the system on which they proceeded?
They grouped A. J., A. K., A. M., A. N., A. O., A. P., and A.R. together,
leaving out A. L. They grouped three or four blocks together in which there
was a deficiency, and left out A. L., in which there was a surplus of accom-
modation. If they included A. L., there would be no deficiency in accommo-
dation. e
1139. Can you imagine why A. J. should be grouped with A. P., and A. L.
omitted from the group
Not at all.
1140. When you made this representation to the clerk of the Statistical
Committee, what was his answer P -
He said he could prove anything by a system of grouping blocks. That the
deficiency was proved on the opposite side of the Essex-road, and they were
justified in what they did.
1141. Did you write to the Board themselves?
It is only within the last fortnight that I made out that A. L. was omitted in
their system of grouping.
1 42. When you felt aggrieved, and found that the Board were doing wrong
by acting in what you thought an injudicious way, why did you not write to
them : -
I came into communication with a member of the Board, Mr. Tabrum, who
said that they grouped A. L. with some of the other districts in order to meet a
deficiency in them.
1143. But still, I repeat the question, why did you not write to the
Board P w
Simply because I thought they were a powerful body. I should say that I
was met with all courtesy by the statistical secretary and by the member of the
School Board with whom I communicated, Mr. Tabrum.
I 144. But still, after all, the clerk is only a servant of the Board, and one of
its officers, and Mr. Tabrum is only a divisional member; surely the common
sense mode of acting would have been to have written to the Board
Many cases were being brought before the Board, and from these it seemed to
me that the Board were a powerful body, and that every little good was to be ob-
tained by writing to them... I was not aware that in their system of grouping
A. L. had been omitted as it is, otherwise I should have persevered with the case.
1145. Would you not admit that it was the right course to have addressed
the Board, or the Chairman of the Board, because either way would have
redressed the grievance which you complain of, or you would have had a stronger
Ca,Se
ELEMENTARY. EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. I 15
case against them now, having come to them, and they refusing to modify their
arrangements?
I admit that.
1146. Earl Beauchamp.] May I ask the number of souls in your parish 3.
Five thousand. -
1147. You have other things to do than to make applications which you
think will not be entertained : - - *
Quite so. I am overburdened with work; my district is entirely a poor
OI)62, - - -
1148. You thought that if the clerk and Mr. Tabrum did not see the matter
in the same light that you did, that any application which you might make
to the Board would be unsuccessful, and you could employ your time more
usefully
Yes.
1149. Lord Lawrence.] At the same time, I must remark, that it must be
obvious to you that the clerk had no authority whatever, and that his duty was
merely in reply to the question you asked him, and that the real authority rested
with the Board, and to the Board you ought to have come 2
I went really to ask for information.
1150. Earl Beauchamp.] I should like to ask you with regard to the state of
the Church schools in your own district; I believe they have been pronounced
efficient by the inspector 2
Quite so. g
1151. You are in Block A. M. 2.
Yes. -
1152. The number of children provided for in St. Bartholomew's parochial
school is 553, I believe
Yes.
1153. The number of scholars on the roll is 171 °
Yes. This number was given to the School Board four months after opening
the schools.
1154. How many vacancies have you in your own school
At the present time, 200.
1155. To what do you attribute that?
To the opening of the temporary Board schools, which opened a few months
after our new schools were opened in Shepperton-road.
1156. Where are those Board schools?
They are not marked upon this map. One is in Frog-lane; another is in
Windsor-street, Essex-road; and a third in Britannia-row.
1157. The total number in those three temporary Board schools, I believe,
is 49 2 --
Yes.
1158. Lord Lawrence.] Those schools will be absorbed when the new school is
built 2
Quite SO.
1159. Earl Beauchamp.] The opening of those schools has had a serious effect
upon your schools?
It has prevented my schools being filled.
1160. Is that in consequence of the Board school being superior to you in point
of accommodation given, or because they undersell you?
Because they undersell us.
1161. Lord Lawrence.] Have your schools fallen off?
They fell off the first quarter of last year. Immediately the School Board
opened their school they fell off in the first six months, but gradually increased,
and at the close of last year we had more than we had had at any time.
Rev. L. Stanham.
23rd May 1873.
(119.) P 2 1162. Duke
fº - . -
ºº::
§º, º, “ . .
5*, *.
:* -
F. . . .
wº
#. --- " .
*Rev. L. Stanham."
23rd May 1873.
116 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
1162. Duke of Cleveland.] You have more at this moment than you had pre-
vious to the opening of the Board school?
Yes, I should think there are 50 more.
1 163. What is the number that the Board school has at this moment:
About 450.
1164. The increase has been on the whole
Yes.
1165. Lord Lawrence.] Then, in fact, your schools have not suffered, except
temporarily P
It appears to me that if the School Board had not opened their schools I should
have had my school filled.
1166. Earl Beauchamp.] How long have your schools been opened?
Two years. -
1167. Duke of Cleveland.] Do you not think that the lesser fee may not have
had some influence 2 -
Quite so.
1168. That, I suppose, has operated to a certain extent?
Quite so.
1169. Earl Beauchamp.] The population of your parish is very dense, I
believe 7
Very dense.
1170. Is there any probability of an increasing population, through other
houses being built in the district (A. No. 2). Will you be good enough to
describe the nature of the population that reside there; are they migratory?
Yes.
1171. How often do you suppose the generality of them change their
houses 7
About one-third of the population every year.
1172. Lord Lawrence. In fact, as one goes out, another comes in:
Yes.
1173. They do not remain all the year, but only remain, say six months?
Yes. During the last year 140 children were admitted into our boys'
school, and 120 removed.
1174. Earl Beauchamp.] Is Block T., which it is proposed to unite with A. L.,
in the parish of Islington P
Yes.
1175. It is in the civil parish 2
Yes.
1176. Duke of Cleveland.] What is the whole population of the parish of
Islington 3: -
Two hundred and ten thousand.
1177. Earl Beauchamp.] Are the inhabitants of Block T. in any way asso-
ciated, casually or usually, with those who inhabit Block A. L. 2 -
Not at all.
1178. Duke of Cleveland.] Is there a large number of other schools of dif-
ferent denominations in Islington;
Yes, a good number. 4.
1179. British and Foreign and Roman Catholic schools :
Yes. -
1180. Do you know at all the number of scholars attending those schools?
I do not. - t
1181. How many schools of all denominations are there in your immediate
district 2 * & -
There are seven sets of Church of England schools. *
: . 1182. You

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 117
1182, You do not know how many schools there are of other denomi– Rev. L. Stanham.
nations P - . In #
There is a British and Foreign School, Union Chapel School, and a Free School 23rd May 1873.
in Morton-road.
1183. Lord Lawrence.] Is Essex-road in any way a dangerous thorough-
fare 2
No, it is not more so than many. For years the parish Church schools have
been well supplied by children obliged to cross the road.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
The Rev. GEORGE ALLEN, is again called in ; and Examined,
as follows:
1184. Earl Beauchamp.] Can you give the amount of accommodation exist- Rev. G. Allen,
ing within the districts from A. J. to A. R., omitting A. Q., and the number of ºsmºmºsºm-
vacancies :
Am I to take in condemned schools?
1185. Take those that are returned as efficient P
I will fill in the Return.
Mr. BENJAMIN LUCRAFT, is called in ; and Examined,
as follows:
1186. Lord Lawrence.] You are a member of the Statistical Committee of the Mr. B. Lucraft.
London School Board 2 -
I am a member of the Board. I know all about this part of Islington.
1187. You have heard what Mr. Allen and Mr. Stanham have said re-
garding the inconvenience of putting a school in Block A. M. Will you explain
what were the Board's reasons for doing so 7
There are three blocks grouped together, which should have formed but one
block, namely, A. M., A. N., and A. K. A. L. is by the side of it. A. L. they
said ought to have been joined with A. M. I was surprised to hear Mr.
Stanham state that the Essex-road is not a dangerous-road. Essex-road
separates A. L. from A. M. It is a wide road with very great traffic, and lately
it has been made a tram road, so that it is impossible for children to come from
A. L. to A. M. It will be seen that A. K., A. L., and A. M. form a square block,
which is bounded on the one side by the canal, and on another side by the
Essex-road, and on another side by Peter-street, and on the fourth side by the
New North-road, which is another dangerous thoroughfare. So that that in-
cludes the three Blocks A. M., A. N., and A. K. I will show the number of
children in the three blocks, and the accommodation in the three blocks. The
number of the children from 3 to 13 years of age in the three blocks is 4,851.
The total accommodation in the three blocks is 1,350, leaving a deficiency of
3,501 in this small area of three blocks; but I have made no deductions. It is
supposed, but this is a fallacy, that there are 837 who pay over 9 d. a week. If
we could get at the facts of the case, we should find that there is nothing at all
like that number. A person may ask whether they pay over 9 d. per week, and
they may say yes, but in this very poor neighbourhood, it is impossible that
there should be 837 persons paying over 9 d. per week; but even deducting that,
leaves a deficiency in the three blocks of 2,664. In Block A. M., by itself, there
are 2,092 children. That is where Angler's Garden School is situated. They
pay less or are supposed to be capable of paying less than 9 d. per week.
The only accommodation in that block is 858. Supposing it were all filled, that
would leave a deficiency in that one block of 1,234.
1188. Duke of Cleveland.] What is the whole population of A. M. 7
I do not know the whole population, but the school population is 2,092; then
in A. K., the adjoining block to A. M., there is 1,069 children, and there is no
(119.) P 3 school
. .
**
118. MINUTEs of Evidence TAKEN BEFORE SELECT committee on
Mr. B. Lucraft.
* * *iº. 4 es.” . .
23rd May 1873.
School at all; so that the case is as plain as anything can possibly be that there
is a deficiency of 2,303 in those two blocks, and it is impossible for us to send
the children to A. L.; A. L. is the block in which the parish church is situated
and there happened to be several Schools in that block, which accounts for the
Surplus accommodation.
A. Ii 89. What is the surplus accommodation, according to your calculation, in
I do not know the surplus accommodation in A. L.; I do not think it is very
large; it would be impossible to send the children across Lower-road to that
block; even if it were it could not accommodate the whole of those children or
anything like that number. In those three temporary schools we have 600
children on the books; suppose we were only to build for 600 or 700, the streets
are as full now as they were before ; another thing is that we have two boys
schools out of the three, therefore we can accommodate more boys than girls
and infants; the number of boys on the books is 330; there would be the
same number of girls. By compulsion I hope that we shall get the girls into
the school as well as the boys; that will make nearly 700 boys and girls in
those blocks; with the proper number of infants, whom we cannot accommodate
now, seeing that we have no room for them, it would bring the school up to
about 1,100; we are only asking to build for 1,000. When we have built for
1,000, I assure the Committee that we shall have before long to build for
another 1,000 in the same way; when there is the slightest thing to be seen
in the street, not even so much as Punch and Judy, in a few minutes there are
100 or 200 children there.
1190. Earl Beauchamp.] Have the compulsory powers of the Board been
put at all into operation ?
Yes.
1191. But apparently without any great result
We put the compulsory powers into operation with those whom we think
ought to send their children to school; the district of A. M. is a very poor
district indeed; when we opened the temporary School in Frog-lane, children
came in there without shoes, stockings, or caps, and we filled the school within
a very short time; then we had to take this other one in Windsor-street, some
little distance off; there was a marked difference in the children during the
month they were in that school; they got better ; we only charged 1d. ; we
tried whether they would give 2d.; and we opened another school a little
distance off, where we charged 2 d. ; the parents who took a little pride in their
children willingly paid the 2 d. When this school is built, a 1 d. and 2 d. will
not perhaps be the fee that will be charged; at first we should charge a fee of
I d. and 2 d. ; but it does not follow that when parents see the value of educa-
tion for their children that they will refuse to pay more than that ; I know that
as far as the division for which I am member is concerned, we have not the least
desire to charge small fees, but a desire at once to get the children, if possible,
out of the streets into some school or other.
1192. Do I understand that the sole reason for detaching A. L. from its
natural neighbours, A. M. and A. N., was a dread of the tramway that runs
down Essex-road 7
That has become a tramway since.
1193. Do many omnibuses make use of the tramway in course of the day ?
There are omnibuses besides the tramway ; it is a very wide road.
1194. Duke of Cleveland.] Why should A. L. not have been added ?
It was thought strange that it was attached to A. T.; it does seem strange
that here is A. L. and there is A. M. (referring to the map); all three blocks are
attached to each other ; it was never thought that people in T. would send their
children over to L.
1195. Where does the tramway go toº
From the “Angel,” at Islington, to Balls-pond.
1196. Notwithstanding the tramway which divides A. P. from A. R., you
connect A. with this district, although you do not attach it to A. L.
There
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. I. 19
There is no doubt that it never ought to have been attached in that way; the
district of A. R. is Canonbury, and all the people who reside there are well-to-
do people; it matters little to what block this is attached, because there are no
poor people to send their children. t
1197. The rich districts are the A. R. and A. L. r
Yes.
1198. Duke of Cleveland.] And the poor districts are A. M., A. R., and A. P.
They are poor. It is a long way down to the end of Block A. P.
1199. Earl Beauchamp.] Are Barnsbury-road and Pentonville-roads populous
thoroughfares?
Yes.
1200. Is there any tramway down the Barnsbury-road 2
No ; A. M. is a long distance from those thoroughfares; it is impossible for
children to go there.
1201. If it is impossible for the children to go from A. M. to A. L., is it not
rather strange that A. L. should be united to A. T.
Whoever drew this out saw that there was no use in attaching this rich district
to this poor one, where they could not cross the road. I do not think it has
much to do with it if a mistake has been made in grouping those blocks; if
A. L. and A. R. are left out, then this would form a compact large block on the
other side.
1202. Chairman.] What would be the consequence if A. R. is left out?
It has no influence either way. In one block by itself, there is a deficiency
of 1,234. If you take the next block, which is A. K., there is a deficiency of
1,069.
1203. Lord Lawrence.] Are you quite sure that Essex-road is so difficult a
bar as you suppose 3
Yes; that is a thing which any one may judge of ; it is a public road with
three or four different lines of busses running through it, and the tramway as
well; it is most difficult for children to cross.
1204. In point of fact, we hear from Mr. Stanham that children from A. M.
do go to these schools in A. L.
That is, I suppose, because they have no accommodation elsewhere. People
will do many things which they ought not to be compelled to do.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
The Rev. GEORGE ALLEN, is again called in ; and further Examined,
as follows:
1205. Lord Lawrence..] I BELIEVE you wish to make an observation with regard
to children passing Essex-road 3
We have referred to the statistics of the neighbouring schools, and we find
that, out of 77 taken on a particular day consecutively at a school where they
would have to cross, 22 crossed Essex-road in order to go to school. That was
in the boys' school. Taking the girls' school, out of 93, 26 had cróssed the
Essex-road. This has been taken for the last three-quarters of a year. The
tram has since been added to the road. The children come across just as much
as they did before. These are particulars taken from St. Mary's School.
1206. I wish to ask you one question at the request of the Clerk of the
Statistical Committee; did not the clerk inform you as to the mode in which
you ought to proceed if you wanted to raise any objections to the site
He certainly mentioned that we could correspond with the Board, but that
was only a short time ago. Mr. Stanham had already corresponded with Mr.
Tabrum. We did not become aware of A. L. being grouped in the way it is
until within the last fortnight.
1207. In point of fact, the clerk did what he could do for you ?
Mr. B. Lucraft.
23rd May 1873.
Rev. G. Allen.
(119.) P 4 I do
120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. G. Allen.
23rd May 1873.
I do not make any complaint or imputation whatever against the clerk; I
should not wish to do so for a moment.
1208. It looked as if the clerk had not given you that information which he
ought to have given you ?
I do not say that information was not given; I do not make any imputation
whatever against the clerk.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next,
at Eleven o’clock.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 121
#
&
Die Martis, 27° Mail, 1873.
P. R. E S E N T :
Duke of Curveiasp. Lord Bishop of WINCHESTER.
Earl BEAUCHAMP. Lord LAWRENCE.
Wiscount EveRSLEY.
Viscount EVERSLEY, IN THE CHAIR.
[Lord Lawrence states that the purchase has been completed of the
Saones's land site, the Victoria-place site, and the Lower Chapman-street
site, and that therefore these sites have been withdrawn from the Bill.
The Reverend JOHN RODGERS, is called in ; and Examined, as follows:
1209. Lord Lawrence.] I BELIEVE that you are Vicar of St. Thomas's Charter
House, and a Member of the School Board of London 2
. I am.
1210. You were also, I believe, at one time Chairman of the Statistical Com-
mittee, in the absence of Mr. Watson 2
I was. º
121 1. You are Chairman now of the Sites Committee, are you not *
I am.
1212, Will you state the circumstances under which the Haverstock-hill site
was selected 2
Well, I am Chairman of the Sites Committee, and have had to do with the
selection and the purchase of nearly all the sites; but there are a few exceptions,
and the Haverstock-hill site, which is called, I think, the Gospel Oak Field site,
was a site selected by the divisional members. Mr. Watson selected that site.
12 3, Was there anybody else with Mr. Watson on that occasion ?
Of course, Mr. Watson referred it to the Sites Committee, and I went up with
him and looked at it ; but it was according to his suggestion that we settled
upon that particular locality.
1214. You heard the objections which were raised by Mr. Cutts on Friday
last?
I did.
1215. What have you to say in answer to those objections :
According to the revised figures of the new report, taking the three blocks
of S., T., and W. (we are building three schools, one in the extreme south of S.
in the angle, another in the angle of S., and another about the centre of T.);
the population of V., T., and S. is 6,990, the present population of children
between the ages of 3 and 13.
1216. Duke of Cleveland.] What is the whole population ?
I do not know. I deal with the children, not with the mass of the population.
'We have to do with the children between the ages of 3 and 13.
1217. Was it by enumerators that you obtained that resuit?
Yes, by actual counting.
1218. Your own enumerators 2
Or rather we took the enumeration of the country, the census; they counted
27th May 1873.
mºmºmºs
Rev. J. Rodgers.
(119.) Q the
122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. J. Rodgers.
27th May 1873.
ź
the children for us; all we had to do was to find out the schools to which the
children went. We took their counting as to the absolute number of children;
and according to the census the number of children in these three blocks was
6,990; and the school accommodation existing and projected was 2,555, leaving
a deficiency of 4,435. We are building for 2,856 in these three schools: the
Hawley-crescent school, the Gospel Oak Field school, and the Mansfield-place
school. When we have completed that, there will still be a deficiency of 1,579.
We are building that short of the population. That is the absolute state of the
case as regards these three. That is all I have to say on that case. It seems to
me clear, as far as I can see, that there is a necessity for our building the schools
that we are building, and that there will be a still further necessity for our build-
ing another school by-and-by.
1219. Chairman.] When you say that there is a deficiency of 1,579, you count
all the school accommodation at present existing, and add that to the school
accommodation which the Board is about to provide, and still there is that
deficiency!
Yes; and there is one thing that we have not reckoned, and that is the increase
of population.
1220. Duke of Cleveland.] But are you of opinion that there will be in that
particular district, a probable increase of population; is it, in fact, densely
inhabited, or is there a great deal of vacant space which may be hereafter
inhabited P
In S. it is pretty densely inhabited; but in the northern blocks, V. and T.,
there is room for building, and in fact building is now going on.
1221. Therefore you anticipate that hereafter there will be a considerable
increase of population in those districts 2
I do not know about a considerable increase; but there will be an increase.
But that is entirely left out of the consideration here. -
1222. It is entirely a question for future consideration, and not taken int
any present account 2
Not at all.
1223. Earl Beauchamp.] Can you tell us at all the number of condemned
schools in Marylebone; in the Blue Book there is one school condemned as
inefficient, containing 480 square feet, and 60 children; can you tell us anything
about that school, in block S. r
That is a ragged school condemned by the department. I do not know whether
that was reckoned in our efficient schools before.
Mr. Croad.] It was a semi-efficient school, and we reported and recom-
mended that it should be passed ; but the Government, on their second
examination, said, “No, it can only be passed in one department.”
1224. Earl Beauchamp (to the JWitness).] You told us that S. is densely
populated; is it a very poor population in S. P
Some parts of it.
1225. What parts :
I am not familiar with that. As the Chairman of the Sites Committee I go
to these different localities and look at the localities in which the school is to
be built. I do not profess to be familiar with the whole population of Maryle-
bone.
1226. I do not quite gather from these tables in the Blue Book how you
arrive at the deficiency of 4,435 °
I think I said that that was according to the new figures in the new report
and not according to the Blue Book.
1227. You gave us the whole educational population as 6,990?
Yes, you get those figures from S., T., and B. in page 119 in the new report.
1228. By enumeration those are all the children between the ages of 3
and 13 P
Yes.
1229. But after deducting from the actual number of children in order to
arrive at the 6,990, the number of children, for instance, who are attending
schools over 9 d. P
We
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 123
We allow 23 per cent. from the absolute number of children after taking
away the children paying over minepence and the children in institutions.
1230. In those three sub-divisions can you tell me how many children there
were paying minepence for their education ?
That will appear in the old Blue Book, it does not appear here ; but we have
left them out altogether.
1231. Duke of Cleveland.] Did you leave them out of the 6,990 :
Yes, the 6,990 means the population between the ages of 3 and 13 for which
we have to provide accommodation. º,
1232. Not the whole number of children between those ages?
No, only the number for which we have to build.
1233. Earl Beauchamp.] Will you tell me exactly where, in your Blue Book,
the number of children is stated P -
Mr. Croad.] They are on page 12; for S., T., and V. they are 336, 190,
and 113.
1234. Earl Beauchamp (to the Witness).] Now you are experienced in
statistics; taking the sub-division S. alone, if you found 721 houses inhabited
by tradesmen what should you say would be the probable number of children to
be found there 7 $
We do not go at all on that principle, and I have never gone into it. We
simply take the childreu that are there counted by the head. There are so
many children counted, and we take that number and act upon that number.
We have not gone upon theories or speculations, such as a fifth or a sixth of the
population; but we have simply taken the mumber of children between the
ages of 3 and 13 from the Census Book as our constituency.
1235. You have had some experience, as a parochial clergyman, in a parish
which contains houses of tradesman, have you not ?
My parish is all poor, I am sorry to say ; there are very few tradesmen in it.
1236. Have you had no acquaintance with another parish :
Yes, I have had one other parish in London.
1237. Were there any tradesmen in that parish 2
Yes.
238. If you were told that there were 721 houses inhabited by well-to-do
tradesmen it would be rather contrary to your experience to find that there were
only 336 children in those 720 houses, would it not ?
I do not know ; it is a matter that I never went into at all.
1239. Mr. Cutts was asked this question by me on the last occasion, “Would
336 children who are returned as scholars, where a fee exists of ninepence, be
above or below the mark;” and he answered, “Very much below ; I took a
certain number of streets which are inhabited by the better class of the inhabit-
ants, such as tradesmen, and went through those streets in the directory, and
found that there were 721 houses in those streets.” If you found 721 houses
inhabited by tradesmen, surely you would examine very carefully, would you
not, a statement that there were only 336 children in those houses paying nine-
pence?
All that we have to set against Mr. Cutts' statement is the result of the
enumeration and of the census.
1240. Then the result of your enumeration having produced such a startling
circumstance is, that no investigation was made 3
I am not aware that there was anything startling about it ; Mr. Cutts' evidence
had never been before us; he was pleased to come before this Committee and
make statements, but they were not before us.
1241. It is not Mr. Cutts who states that there were 336 children paying 9 d. ;
that statement is made by the Board, is it not ? .
Yes.
Rev. J. Rodgers.
*7th May 1873.
(119.) Q 2 1242. You
124 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. J. Rodgers.
27th May 1873.
W
tºmºma mm smººn
1242. You have told us yourself, I think, that a portion of the population of
S. is tolerably well to do
I think I said that S. was densely populated, as far as I know it.
1243. You said some parts are poor; I may assume from that, may I not, that
Some are not poor ;
I assume nothing; I go to the parts where a school is needed, and if there is
any part where they do not require a school I do not concern myself with that.
1244. Will you tell me how you satisfy yourself on that point 2
It is not satisfying myself but the Committee; if you wish to know how we
select sites I can give you that information.
1245. I wish to know why you make this statement, that some parts of S.
are poor P e e
Because I have seen the population in those particular localities.
1246. And you never took the trouble to ascertain whether the whole of the
district was poor or not :
I do not consider that I have to do with the whole of the district. The
statistics tell me that there is a certain population of children requiring school,
and as the Chairman of the Sites Committee, I have to look out the locality in
which those poor children reside ; and after visiting the locality, and seeing thc
poor population, counting the schools, and looking at the character of the popu-
lation, we decide upon a convenient site for that population. It may form part,
but a tithe of the block; but we do not concern ourselves with the other part of
the block. Here is a place we say where a school is needed, and we build one
there. The other parts of the block may be tolerably well off; there may be
tradespeople or other classes in it; it is not my duty to look into that, and I
take the general view of the population of the other part of the block.
1247. And you take no steps to verify the statistics that are laid before you ?
That does not rest with the Sites Committee ; the statistics come to us
verified.
1248. But you have been a member of the Statistical Committee as well as
of the Sites Committee 7
Are you speaking to me now as Chairman of the Sites Committee ?
1249. I am speaking to you as the Rev. John Rodgers ?
I am at present answering your question as to how we work about securing
sites; I can answer the question as to the statistics perfectly well, as to the
simple figures of the block. I have already said that we have the census of the
nation of 1871. We accept the figures from that census ; we do not question
them at all; and if that census tells us that there are a certain number of chil-
dren in a certain locality we accept that as true; then our enumerators went
round on that and inquired into the other point.
1250. Duke of Cleveland.] Therefore, you did not altogether accept the
census as conclusive 7
Yes, as to the absolute number of children; what we wanted to do with our
enumerators was to supplement the information that we had got from Somerset
House ; we wanted to know, not only how many children there were, and their
ages, but what schools they went to. We sent our enumerators round to inquire
what schools they went to, if they went to a school at all; and where we found
those who went to a school above 9d., they were recorded as such ; and those
who went to a school under 9d., and those who did not go to a school at all.
1251. Earl Beauchamp.] Did you take any steps to verify the statements of
your enumerators
The steps we took were these; the Statistical Committee were authorised by
the Board to give this work over to the divisional members; the divisional
members were supposed to superintend the work in their respective divisions.
They appointed a superintendent of enumerators, and under the superintendent
of enumerators the enumerators did their work, and as they brought their
work in, the superintendent examined the figures, and the divisional members,
so far as I know, in my own division, the Finsbury division, examined the
figures,
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER con FIRMATION BILL. 125
figures, and if there were any doubt in their minds, or anything that they thought
unlikely, they made a personal visit to the locality, or requested the enumerator
to visit it again.
1252. Do you know any case where any statement was found to be unlikely,
and the locality was visited by the divisional members in consequence 2
I do not know about the other divisions. We accepted the returns from the
other divisions as on the authority of the divisional members.
1253. Is it within your own knowledge that any locality was so visited ?
In my own division, although I could not specify the cases, because it is so
long ago, I have a perfect recollection that we had to go two or three times to
differcut localities, because the returns of the enumerators seemed inconsistent,
and we sent the enumerators back, and the superintendent examined it, and one
of the divisional members, who had a particular knowledge of the locality, under-
took to visit it, and I know that was done in several cases, and the greatest care
was taken.
1254. Can you give us an illustration of any case of that kind 7
I do not recollect any particular case ; I have a general recollection only.
1255. Was that in the event of finding the number of children in excess of
what was expected, or less than was expected ?
•In this way: we had a map before us, and we could see a street, and perhaps
no record of population in that street or court, or from eur local knowledge we
would know that there was such a court, and would notice that there was no
record of the population, or that the record of the population was inconsistent
as to its character with what we knew of the locality, and instantly we would
inquire, and send the enumerator back. t
Rev. J. Rodgers.
27th May 1873.
1256. Can you give us any idea what you would consider a record of the
population inconsistent with the character of the locality ?
Merely from our personal knowledge of it; for instance, if they came to me,
and said that a certain class of people were living in French Alley or Bell's Yard,
in my own parish, I should know instantly whether that was in accordance with
the character of the population ; and other members for Finsbury had a know-
ledge of other parts of Finsbury, and so we obtained a local knowledge of the
whole of the division.
1257. Duke of Cleveland.] The enumerators were named by the members of
the division ?
They were chosen and appointed by members of the division.
1258. Earl of Beauchamp.] Again, I will ask you if you found 720 houses of
tradesmen tolerably well to do containing only 336 children, would that be a
case for examination, or not :
I really do not know ; I am not prepared to answer that question at all ; it is
a matter of calculation whether 336 children is a fair number for such a popu-
lation.
1259. What is the average of children to the population ?
I do not know how those averages are counted.
1260. As a member of the Statistical Committee, you can tell us the number
of children to a house, cannot you ?
Perhaps five.
1261. Lord Lawrence.] But in verifying the returns you do not go upon any
averages, do you ?
No.
1262. You do not look to whether there are few or many houses of the higher
class or the lower; you deal with the children :
We go from house to house and inquire absolutely the number of children in
each house, and record accordingly.
1263. Earl Beauchamp.] But inasmuch as these children for whom you are
providing school accommodation have to be provided with that accommoda-
tion at the expense of the ratepayers, do you not think that it is a matter of
great necessity that you should not provide accommodation for more children
than absolutely required it :
(119.) Q 3 That
126 MINUTEs of Evid ENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT com MITTEE ON
Rev. J. Rodgers. . That is a question that never concerns me, who is to provide it, whether it
27th May 1873. is the ratepayers, or whether it is. to come out of the Imperial treasury, or from
* - any other source; my point is this, there is a certain population, and a school
is wanted, and a school must be provided, and the Act of Parliament authorises
me to act accordingly; a great deal is said about the expense to the ratepayers,
but it is so very trifling that I do not think that they concern themselves
about it.
*:
1264. What do you estimate the expense at 7
The Finance-Chairman is here, who could go into that subjeet if necessary.
We can only go to 3 d. in the pound, and I consider that insignificant for such
a great work as this; even if we go to the full extent of that, I consider it
excessively insignificant for so great a work.
1265. Then, in point of fact, you think that you would not be exceeding your
powers if you spent up to 3 d. in the pound, regardless of where the money came
from ; you do not take that into consideration, in fact 3 º
I do not personally ; other members of the Board may, and I believe do.
1266. Lord Lawrence.] But, in point of fact, we have never got up to 3 d. 2
No ; only to ; d. in the pound.
1267. Spread over 50 years 2
Yes. º
1268. Earl Beauchamp.] That deals with the purchase of the sites only, does
it not *
And of the buildings also.
1269. As far as that has gone, you mean :
Calculating all the proposed buildings.
1270. Have you taken any estimate of the expense of the maintenance 2
Another # d. in the pound.
1271. Calculated upon the present expenditure ?
Calculated upon the expenditure in all the schools that we propose to build.
1272. And including compulsion ?
That is not fairly reckoned in, because compulsion has to do, not merely with
our schools, but with the schools all over London. The voluntary schools get
the benefit of compulsion as much as the Board schools; they have hitherto
got the benefit more than ours. We have sent 30,000 children to school by
our compulsion, and the greater portion of those have gone into voluntary
Schools ; so that they ought to be taxed with the expense of the compulsion.
1273. How does it appear that 30,000 children have been brought in by the
compulsory powers of the Board 7
It appears from our Report.
1274. Will you be good enough to show how it appears. Your statement is,
as I understand, that 30,000 children have been driven into the schools of the
metropolis by the action of the compulsory powers granted to the London School
Board. Will you give the grounds for that statement; where do you find those
figures 2
| find those figures in two Reports of the Bye-Laws Committee; the Report
from Midsummer 1872 to Michaelmas 1872, and that from Michaelmas 1872 to
Christmas 1872.
1275. Lord Lawrence.] Is it 30,000 that have been , driven into school, or
36,000 :
I think it is about 36,000; I merely spoke roughly.
1276. I think the expression “driven into school,” is scarcely correct, is it
It was not my expression ; I did not make use of it.
1277. I think you meant that there had been an increase of 36,000 in the
average attendance 2
Yes.
1278. Chairman.] Compulsory attendance 2
An increased average attendance to that amount, consequent upon the com-
pulsory action of the Board.
1279. Earl
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER ConFIRMATION BILL. I27
1279. Earl Beauchamp.] Taking the quarter ending Christmas 1872, the Rev. J. Rodgers.
Report of the Bye-Laws Committee states that the increase of the average
attendance is 36,873, and the accommodation, which was the basis of that Return,
I find given as 304,155, and the average attendance 207,224; that is so, is
it not ?
I have not the Report before me, but no doubt you are stating it correctly.
1280. Lord Lawrence..] Is it fair to take into consideration all those numbers
as regards accommodation ; does not that include certain portions of accommo-
dation which is really not available, but is taken up in other ways 2
That is so throughout London ; that accommodation' is reckoned where it is
not available. For instance, accommodation in Roman Catholic schools is not
available to Protestants, and accommodation in military schools is not available
to civilians; and there are many schools of that character.
1281. Earl Beauchamp.] The difference between the average attendance of
207,224, and the accommodation there, was 96,931 ; is not that so 2
I have not the figures before me, but if you say so, it is so, no doubt.
1282. It appears from that, that the average vacancies in the quarter ending
Christmas 1872, were a fraction under 97,000 !
It might be so.
1283. When you tell me that you attribute a large portion (I do not think
you attribute all) of the increase of average attendance of the 36,873 to com-
pulsion, has, or has not, the average attendance of children been on the increase
during the last few years; has there not been a steady rise in the average atten-
dance of children : *
That proves it, during the last two years at least.
1284. But before the School Board took any action, is it within your know-
ledge that there was no increase in the average attendance of children 2
I am not aware of any special increase.
1285. But was there not an average or general increase ?
I think in London there must always be a small increase, because the popula-
tion is increasing in different parts of London.
1286. And the effect of the education given had been to make successive
generations of parents value education for their children more, I suppose ? f
I think a certain class of the poor, certainly.
1287. You decline, as I understand, to make any calculations at all about per-
centages or averages 2
Not as to per-centages. I am prepared to go into per-centages. We do not
build for the gross number of children counted by Somerset House.
1288. Duke of Cleveland.] You reckon 23 per cent., which you deduct from
the general number 2
That is so.
1289. Earl Beauchamp.] How do you arrive at that per-centage of 23?
In the first place we allow 5 per cent. for temporary absences. For instance,
boys absent for a day from headache, or anything of that sort. Then we allow
about 9 per cent. (I am speaking from memory) for children with serious illness,
small-pox, or fever, and laid up ; such children's names would never be removed
from the school book; they would still be kept on the roll of the school as be-
longing to the school; and also for the workers, we allow about 9 per cent, for
the half-timers; then we come to a class where they would never be on the roll
of the school at all, the permanently disabled.
1290. How much per cent. would that be?
The permanently disabled are scarcely a half per cent. They, and the too
young together, would come to 9 per cent. For those who would never come
into the school at all, we allow about 9 per cent. ; and for those who would come
into school, we allow about 14 per cent. The number of those described as too
young was 50,000.
1291. Did I rightly understand you to say that there were 9 per cent. of
children who would never get upon the books at all 2
27
th May 1873.
(119.) Q 4 Only
128 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. J. Rodgers.
27th May 1873.
Only the two kinds, the too young and the permanently disabled; they come
to 9 per cent. I think 9 per cent. is a high number, because although in past
days the parents may have said concerning 50,000 children, “They are too
young,” when we multiply our schools, and it is felt that the child can leave
school at the age of 10, if he has passed the Fifth Standard, parents will be
anxious to get their children to school earlier, and that will diminish the number
absent.
1292. At the present time you estimate at about 9 per cent. the number who
do not get on the books at all ?
Yes.
1293. When you get your children enrolled on the books of the school, the
quarterly return of the quarter ending March 1873, gives the absences of the
scholars actually enrolled upon the books of the school at, I think, 33 per cent. *
About that.
1294. Then, in point of fact, if you added the 33 per cent. of scholars tempo-
rarily absent to the 9 who never get on the books of the school at all, that gives
you 42 per cent.”
It would.
1295. Then if you found that the proportion of children actually attending
school on the average was less than the total number of children by 40 per cent.,
that would correspond with the estimate of 9 per cent. never getting on the
books of the school, and the 33 per cent. of absent enrolled scholars?
But I do not find that, and therefore I cannot admit it.
1296. Duke of Cleveland.] You do not admit the 33 per cent :
I do not admit that 40 per cent. is the average of the absences in schools.
1297. Earl Beauchamp.] You are Chairman of the Sites Committee
I am.
1298. There were two sites in the Bill, the Chapman-street site and the
Victoria-place site, which it is now proposed to take out of the Bill. The
purchase of the Chapman-street site was concluded on Saturday, I believe?
The purchase of the Chapman-street site was concluded for one part on the
27th of January 1873, and the other part in November 1872; that has been lying
in abeyance for some time.
1299. Why are the compulsory powers taken now?
Because there is another half which we thought we should require as to the
leasehold interest, but we have arranged to build on half the site, and because of
the dearness of the site, we are going to abandon the other half; we do not there-
fore want the leasehold interest.
1300. Chairman.] Any compulsory powers sought in this Bill relate to that
half which it is sought to abandon 2
Yes.
1301. Earl Beauchamp.] Do I rightly understand you that you have dimi-
nished the accommodation you intended to give
No ; we have diminished the size of the site because of the dearness of pro-
perty. s:
1302. Are you going to build for fewer children than you were 2
For the same number.
1303. You were going, them, to have bought more land than you wanted :
No ; we always schedule more than we want, and the Department are very
strong upon us for having sites too small. They have sent back several of our
sites to us, and asked us to get more property.
1304. Will you explain why the site of Victoria-place, Walworth, is struck
out of the Bill
We have purchased that.
1305. When was that purchased ?
It was purchased some time ago, with the exception of one interest, and that
interest will be ours next Michaelmas; it will come into our possession then,
even if we were not to purchase it beforehand. &
1306. Then
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL, 129
1306. Then why was it put into the Bill at all?
It was put into the Bill before we bought it; when we scheduled the sites we
went to work directly to get as many as possible.
1307. When did you buy it?
I do not remember the exact date, but it was months ago.
1308. Duke of Cleveland.] When did you schedule the site
Last November.
1309. Earl Beauchamp.] Mr. Croad has stated that another Bill will be re-
quired next year for the purchase of still further sites; can you tell us how many
more schools you contemplate building?
As far as I am concerned, we contemplate building schools to the extent of
83,000 places; we have got sites for them. The constituency of Finsbury may
turn me out in November, but I content myself with doing the work before me
now ; what remains is in the future, and there will be another Board to do it.
1310. At all events it is correct to say, that if the present Board continues its
present scale of operations another Bill will be required next year, or at some
future time, for the purchase of still further sites ?
I think most likely.
1311. Duke of Cleveland.] You have sites for schools to the extent of 83,000
children P
Yes.
1312. That is to say, for 83,000 children for whom there is not sufficient
accommodation at present
Yes.
1313. Lord Lawrence.] We have arranged for, and scheduled, what is equal
to the accommodation of something like 85,000 children 7
Quite.
1314. If we want to build for more children than the 85,000 children, then
we shall have to purchase sites for the additional number 2
We have authority from the Department to build for 126,000 children, but
we have only secured sites, by scheduling and purchasing, for 85,000 (I thought
it was 83,000), and if we have to build for more than the 85,000, we shall have
either to purchase by private arrangement, or to schedule next November.
1315. Duke of Cleveland.] For the remaining number between the 85,000
and the 126,000 P
Yes.
1316. Chairman.] With regard to the site which the Board selected in the
first instance, and the extent of ground which they propose to purchase around
it, is that always submitted to the Education Department 7
It is.
1317. And they control you to a certain extent 2
We cannot do anything until they give us leave, or command us to go on.
1318. Do they frequently cause you to purchase more land than you ori-
ginally intended ?
That is almost the only complaint they make against us, that we purchase too
little land.
1319. That you are too economical, in fact :
Yes.
1320. Lord Lawrence.] Will you explain to the Committee how the Statis-
tical Report was drawn up, and state how far the members of the Board were
aware of the principles on which it was constructed ?
I happened to be chairman of the Statistical Committee at that time; Mr.
Watson was seriously ill for some weeks, and therefore I had everything to do
with it just at the time the report was presented, and the plan adopted was this:
we had a very full committee, and, as your Lordships may suppose, they took a
deep interest in this, because it was in fact the very gist of our work; we had
about 20 members on the committee, and a very good attendance, I think, of
Rev. J. Rodgers.
27th May 1873.
(119.) R members
130 MINUTEs of EvidFNCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT committee on
Rev. J. Rodgers.
27th May 1873.
members generally. I have already explained that we took the numbers of
Somerset House, and sent our enumerators round, and when these returns came
to us we went carefully into each block. The plan which we adopted was to
take a block, for instance, Block A., look at the deficiency or the excess, the
number of children, and the number of schools, and then we took every block
touching Block A., and considered the educational condition of each block, to
see whether the deficiency in one block would be made up by the excess in
another; so we went from block to block. This was done by the committee.
Then the committee called-in the divisional members; if they were doing Lam-
beth, they called in the Lambeth members; if they were doing Finsbury, they
called in the Finsbury members, so that through the whole process of the report
the divisional members were consulted, and took part, so that during the history
of the report being prepared, all the members of the Board had to do with it.
When it came before the Board, therefore, they were all familiar with their own
particular part of the report. We were anxious to get it through the Board to
send it up to the department, therefore we did it without a debate, but with a
thorough understanding that the report would have to be debated in detail.
We passed it actually without any discussion, but knowing that it would have
to be discussed as to each individual site and school, as each site and school
came up. The Board, knowing that, passed it as a whole without a discussion.
1321. How many months were you occupied in drawing up that report, and
considering all those points?
I should think about 15 months; I am not quite sure; I know, in the first
place, it knocked Lord Sandon up (he was chairman), and then it knocked Mr. .
Watson up (he was chairman), and then they put me into the chair, and for-
tunately I kept my health and strength, and was able to carry it through, but it
was very laborious.
1322. It struck me that it was something like l l or 12 months?
It might be that ; I do not remember exactly.
1323. It was a long time, at all events 7
Yes.
1324. And there was every opportunity, was there not, for every member of
the Board to attend and say what he had to say on any subject :
There was not only the opportunity, but they availed themselves of the
opportunity; the members of the different divisions came and assisted us.
1325. Earl Beauchamp.] May I ask you whether there was any discussion as
to that deduction of 5 per cent. *
Yes, a very strong discussion; and the Board unanimously agreed (it is not
5 per cent., but it is 23 per cent.) that we were correct, as far as we could see, in
our allowance for absences. It was presented in such a form by one or two
members as to persuade the Board that we were only allowing for 5 per cent. of
absences; but it was clear to the Board that we were allowing for 23 per cent.
1326. But the 23 per cent. was an allowance, was it not, for the total absences
of existing children, irrespective of their being scholars or not ?
I have explained that already.
1327. Was it a matter of discussion by the Board that a temporary absence of
5 per cent, only, in the case of enrolled scholars, was to be expected P
I think so, and the Board thought it reasonable, and I think it reasonable.
You will not have more than 5 per cent. temporary absences in any good school
in London this morning.
1328. Do you know any school in which that is the per-centage of absences P
I know it is so in my own school, where I have 300 boys; I am sure there
will not be 5 per cent. of temporary absences, and not 12 per cent. everything
reckoned.
1329. Does it not follow that, if in your school the temporary absences are so
slight, and yet the average of temporary absences mounts up in the Board schools
to something like 30, or over 30 per cent, there must be a very much larger
absence than that of 30 per cent. in some of the schools 2
The Board Schools, I think your Lordships are quite aware, are exceptional.
We
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 131
We have not a single school of our own, we have transfers; these transfers were
Ragged Schools.
1330. Were they all Ragged Schools 2 • *
Mostly Ragged Schools; some were British Schools, and one or two National
Schools, but mostly Ragged Schools, where the children have been accustomed
to go for a day in the week, or an hour or two in the day, just as they chose.
Our other schools are in inconvenient buildings, under chapels, and so forth, and
our schools are very exceptional, and the circumstances under which they are
now existing are very exceptional. We hope that, by and by, when we get our
own schools built, we shall not have anything like 30 per cent. of absences, but
say 20 or 15 per cent.
1331, That is not an answer to my question, which is this: if in some well-
managed schools the average of absence is under 5 per cent., there must be ad-
ditional absences in other Schools in order to bring up the average to something
like 33 per cent. ”
I think I said that my own school this morning would have only 12 per cent.
of absences from all causes.
1332. Of scholars enrolled on the books?
Yes.
1333. How many children are there in your parish who are not receiving
education ? §
If your Lordship's object is to compare my school with my parish, it is of
very little use comparing them, because my school will not have 20 children out
of my parish this morning ; it is a metropolitan school more than a local school;
children come from all parts, Islington and Clerkenwell, and all round, to it; my
parish is a very poor parish, and the education of it is supplied by a penny school
in Golden-lane.
1334. Then the school that you have been telling us of, where the education
is so high, is no guide whatever for us?
Not to the condition of the parish.
1335. What are the fees?
Sixpence and ninepence.
1336. Lord Lawrence..] Still you fully expect, do you not, that when the
Board schools are set agoing, the number of children who will, from one cause or
the other, be absent, will gradually but perceptibly decrease ?
Yes; I think that the per-centage of absences will not be more than 20 per
cent, as, according to this old Blue Book of ours, it appears, taking all the
schools of London, that the per-centage of absence is 20.
1337. Earl Beauchamp.] I have been endeavouring to point out the difference
of absence in the case of enrolled scholars and the absence of children not on
the books of the schools; you are familiar with that distinction, are you not
We do not admit any excuse for children outside of the school, excepting the
excuse, as I have said already, of their being permanently disabled or too young;
there are no other excuses that we recognise; children must go to school.
1338. Still you understand, do you not, the distinction between the absences
of children enrolled as scholars and the non-attendance of children who are not
on the books at all 7
I do not understand any distinction except what I have already explained;
if the child is in the street lame, and cannot go to school, then I say it cannot ;
if it is too young, it cannot ; but if it is not anything of that sort, then that
child must be on the rolls of some school, according to the law of England at
the present moment, and it is our purpose to carry that out.
1339. Duke of Cleveland.] How do you deal practically with the cases where
the parents are extremely poor, and say that the child has no boots, and that
they are too poor to give the child boots, which has been the excuse alleged in
certain cases? &
I think, in many cases, it is dealt with by voluntary help ; the divisional com-
mittees are acquainted with such cases, and they, outside of the Board, assist
them. The great difficulty that we have to deal with in our compulsion is
Rev. J. Rodgers.
27th May 1873. -
(119.) R 2 the
132 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
JRev. J. Rodgers.
27th May 1873.
the working question, as to the children who are at work; the child is kept at
home to nurse the baby, or the boy is an errand-boy in some shop ; that is the
great difficulty.
1340. But you do make a considerable allowance for those
Yes.
1341. Lord Lawrence.) I wish to ask you how you justify the selection of
the Angler's Garden site in Finsbury :
The school which we propose to build is in A. M., and the deficiency in A. M.
is 171 boys, 242 girls, and 479 infants; that is the deficiency according to our
Statistical Report, pages 35 and 36; the total deficiency is 892. We group a
number of blocks together as a matter of convenience. We were bound to
represent to the department the condition of the whole of London, therefore we
had to put in our report all blocks, whether schools are required in them or not,
and therefore we put blocks together which it may seem odd to group so ; but
in the case of a block where there was an excess, and no schools were required,
it did not matter much where we put that block; we put it where it seemed
most convenient to us; but in the case of this particular A. M., it is no use joining
with it the blocks A. G., A. E., A. F.; they are too far apart. The blocks
affected by A. M. would be A. K., A. N., and A. O. We have not joined A. L.
with it, because there is a tremendous traffic on Essex-road. It was stated here
that the children cross to the St. Mary's Schools; I have no doubt that they do ;
but there was the other day a child killed on that road, the traffic is so great.
But we joined A. L. with the other side, because on the High-street, Islington,
there is not so much traffic as on the Essex-road. It did not matter much where
it went, because it did not particularly concern us, being well supplied with schools;
but in A. M., A. K., A. N., and A. O. there is a very large deficiency; we have
a deficiency of 508 boys, 588 girls, 1,062 infants; that is the total deficiency in
the four blocks, and if, as was argued the other day, we should take block A. L.
with it (I have no objection), there is an excess there of boys 167, girls 272, but
a deficiency for infants of 55 ; subtracting that from the other, you have then
left a deficiency still, taking in A. L., of 341 boys, 316 girls, and 1,117 infants,
and we are building for 300 boys, 300 girls, and 400 infants.
1342. You are quoting the revised returns, are you not ?
Yes, I always quote the revised returns. &
1343. Earl Beauchamp.] Have you A. J. 7
I do not take that.
1344. Is it intended to put a school in A. K. 7 ©
No ; only to build in A. M.
1345. Do you leave A. J. to balance A. K. 7
Yes; these blocks (pointing to the Map) balance one another, or they are
supplied by existing schools; the deficiency is not large enough to justify us in
taking any steps in providing any further accommodation.
1346. Then you merely take A. M. to provide for A. K., A. N., and A. O.
Yes.
1347. Why do you put A. K. with A. M., and not let A. K. go with A. J.,
seeing that in the School Board Return there is an excess of 633 in A. J., but in
A. K. no schools at all, and a deficiency of 832; why does not the excess in
A. J. compensate partly for the deficiency in A. K. P
It may do so, but it would not alter the case; if you take A. M. by itself, you
have a case for building a school.
1348. Why are you not to take A. M. and A. L. together?
There is a broad thoroughfare between A. M. and A. L.
1349. Duke of Cleveland.] But besides that, you are building now for 300
boys, 300 girls, and 400 infants; the buildings for that deficiency must be com-
pleted even if you comprise A. L. with the other blocks which you have men-
tioned 2
Yes.
1350. Lord Lawrence.] As I understand the matter, some of the children
belonging to the block A. M. cross the road and go into A. L. to school 2
I heard that the other day.
1351. And
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 133
1351. And the object of the Board in building a school in A. M. is to save the
children going across the road between A. L. and A. M. ?
The object of the Board is to supply accommodation in that particular block
for the children in that block and the adjoining block.
1352. And to avoid the danger of their crossing the road P
Yes
1353. Earl Beauchamp.] May we assume that if there was no danger in the
crossing, be that danger great or small, A. L. would naturally have fallen into
the same group as A. M., A. K., and A. N. 2
I should think it might.
1354. So that, in point of fact, the purchase of this site at A. M. is rendered
necessary by the existence of a dangerous crossing in Essex-street P
I would not say that, but obviously, even if you reckon A. L. with the
blocks which I have mentioned, I have already shown that you have a large
deficiency,
1355. Duke of Cleveland.] Did not the Board join A. S. with A. L., that is
to say, that the excessive accommodation in A. L. would be used by the children
in A. S. P .
The fact is, that we were very glad to get blocks with an excess to balance the
very great deficiency on the west side of Finsbury. We are building, up that
Caledonian-road at this moment, three, indeed four, very large schools, and when
we have done that, there will be still a deficiency. We did not like to build any
more Board Schools up there, and we were glad, therefore, to get blocks east
that had an excess, to justify us in building so few schools in T., A. G., and
A. U.; those blocks run up by the west boundary of Finsbury, by the Caledonian-
road. s
1356. Chairman.] To what block do you attach A. L. 2
We have grouped it with A. U., and those other blocks.
1357. Duke of Cleveland.] You think that if A. L. was separated from A. K.,
A. M., and A. O., it would, to a certain degree, supply the deficiency, and save
you from building on the other side?
Yes, that is how we have reckoned; but I do not think that the children in T.
would ever go to A. L.
1358, Lord Lawrence.] Do not you anticipate that the children in A. S. who
require accommodation will go to A. L. :
Yes ; there is nothing to prevent it.
1359. So that when we have provided for the deficiency in A. M., A.K., and
A. O., then the excess of accommodation which will remain in A. L. will be avail-
able for the children in A. S. requiring accommodation ?
Yes.
1360, Earl Beauchamp.] I understood you to say that, though the children
from T. will not attend the schools in A. L., yet the excess in A. L. will be taken
in in reckoning the total accommodation of that group of blocks?
It has been.
1361. But then, if that is so, notwithstanding the fact that the children from
T. will not attend the schools in A. L., why should you exclude A. L. from being
reckoned as part of the grouping of A. J., A. K., and A. M. , though the actual
children from A. J. might not go to A. L., or those from A. M. might not go to
A. L.; yet taking the group together, which appears to be a very homogeneous
group, the total calculation would come out pretty nearly equal, would it not ?
A. L. stands in a peculiar position; it is an angle between two great thorough-
fares, Essex-road and the High-street, Islington. The question was, which is the
least dangerous; therefore we put it with the other side. There is a large defi-
ciency of children in A. S., and no schools; they are likely to go to A. L., so we
attached A. L. to that side.
1362. Will you tell me where the Metropolitan Cattle Market is 2
In the south of A. W.
1963. Is there much traffic coming down the Caledonian-road from the Me-
tropolitan Cattle Market? O
Rev. J. Rodgers.
*ams
27th May 1873.
(119.) R 3 Il
134 MINU YES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. J. Rodgers.
27th May 1873.
On market days, i should think a great deal of cattle; but on ordinary days
not very much traffic; I should not consider the Caledonian-road a dangerous
thoroughfare for children; on Mondays it might be somewhat dangerous, but
not on ordinary days.
1364. The cattle are not so objectionable as the trams, you mean?
The trams are every 5 or 10 minutes, and the cattle only once a week 2
1365. Duke of Cleveland.] And they are not so dangerous as the trams to
children?
No, they come in droves.
1366. Lord Lawrence.] You have seen these two roads yourself, the Upper-
road and the Essex-road :
Very often.
1367. You have been on them since the tramway was made 2
Yes.
1368. How long has the tramway been in existence in these roads 2
Six months, perhaps.
1369. Chairman.] Where will the children of A. L. go?
They have an excess of accommodation.
1370. And they will provide for A. S. P
Yes.
1371. Lord Lawrence.] Am I right in saying that on the Essex-road there
are two tramways, one going up and the other coming down, and on the other -
only one tramway ?
I think there are two on both, an up line and a down.
1372. I thought there were two on the Essex-road, and only one on the other
road 2
In some particular part of the other road, were it is very narrow, there may
beonly one.
1373. You mean that they wait till the other carriage has passed ?
Yes. '
1374. Earl Beauchamp.] I should like to follow your figures if your please;
in A. R. there is a deficiency of 23, is there not ?
I have at present an excess of 43 there.
1375. In A. P. there is a deficiency of 88, as I am told P
There is a deficiency of 221 in A. P.
1376. In A. L. there is an excess of 786, is there not 2
In A. L. there is an excess of 384.
1377. In A. M. the deficiency is 892 :
Yes.
1378. And in A. O. what is it 2
There is a deficiency in A. O. of 2232
1379. In A. N. what is the deficiency 2
There is a deficiency of 194 there.
1380. In A. K. what is it !
Eight hundred and thirty-two, and no schools at all in A. K.
1381. And in A. J.
An excess of 633.
1382. Do those figures correspond with the figures in the Blue Book?
They are revised figures.
1383. But do they correspond with the figures in the Blue Book?
No, they do not.
1384. Has this Report of the Statistical Committee been published?
It is published. I do not quite understand your question; it is here before
us to-day.
& 1385. Is
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 135
1385. Is it for sale
I do not know that the other, the Blue Book, is for sale; I am not aware.
1386. Is this Statistical Report for sale
I do not think it is ever intended to be sold. I do not think that we sell any
of our Reports.
1387. Has anyone concerned in the district access to it?
Anyone concerned can have access to anything in the office; any ratepayer
can go and ask to see any figures that he pleases, and the clerks are there to
afford him every facility.
1388. Can you explain the discrepancies between the Report of the Statistical
Committee and the Blue Book?
I do not know that I am prepared to go into the details, but I can go into the
general principles; for instance, we have projected schools (I am not speaking
now of these blocks). There has been no other census; the only alteration is in
schools, where schools were projected and not carried out, and where schools
were reckoned efficient by us. If you will allow me to explain, there are three
classes of schools, schools efficient, schools semi-efficient, and schools condemned.
We wiped out at once the condemned schools, but we asked the department to
allow us to reckon in the semi-efficient schools for a time; that time has
now gone over, and the semi-efficient schools have to be condemned over
London to the extent of 20,000 places.
1389. Duke of Cleveland.] How many schools does that comprise
I am not prepared to say now.
1390. Those condemned ones are condemned partly on account of want of
accommodation, and also on account of the inefficiency of the teaching ; both
those categories are taken into consideration, I presume 2
Both ; where the building is not sufficient, and where the education is de-
fective.
1391. Earl Beauchamp.] In block A. J., for instance, in the Blue Book the
excess of accommodation is described as 289
Yes.
1392. In the Statistical Report it is described at 633 7
If we look at the schools in the Blue Book we can see if there is any differ-
ence in the schools. There is a difference in the accommodation according to
this return in the Blue Book. St. Peter's Boys' School in the one case is 485, and
in the other it is the same. St. John the Evangelist’s Roman Catholic School
is in the one 700, and in the other it is 356. There is the difference; in the
first report you have an accommodation of 356, and in the other you have
an accommodation of 700; that is the discrepancy there.
1393. But in the Blue Book was not the projected accommodation taken into
account 2
When there was a projected accommodation, but it does not appear here in
the Blue Book at all; there does not seem to have been any projected accommo-
dation there.
1394. Still it is rather strange that accommodation to the extent of 386 should
be provided in the interval between the preparation of the Blue Book and the
preparation of the Statistical Report?
It is so ; there has been a considerable time elapsed ; a year or a year and a half.
1395. You do not provide accommodation for 386 children in a year, do you ?
I could do it in six months.
1396. Lord Lawrence.] Great efforts are made in particular cases by voluntary
associations, are there not ?
Yes; if I may be allowed to say so, I think that the Roman Catholics would
be particularly likely to do that if they felt inclined, because they can act very
promptly.
1397. Duke of Cleveland.] Where there is no Roman Catholic school do the
Roman Catholic children attend any Board school :
I think many Roman Catholic children attend other schools; but I do not
think Protestants will attend Roman Catholic schools as a rule.
Rev. J. Rodgers.
27th May 1873.
(119.) R 4 1398. But
136 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. J. Rodgers.
27th May 1873.
gº º
1398. But many of them attend Board schools and voluntary schools, when
there are not Roman Catholic schools P
Yes.
1399. Earl Beauchamp.] In these blocks, A. J. to A. R., omitting A. Q., are
there many schools that have been condemned as inefficient
I am sorry that I have not compared the two reports; they could answer that
question in the office.
Mr. Croad.] By looking at the schools in the old Blue Book, and then
looking at those in the new Report, you can see at once what have been
condemned.
H'itness.] The discrepancy will be altogether in the schools, none in the
CéIlSUlS.
1400. Earl Beauchamp.] I think I understood you to say that anybody may
have access to this information ?
Yes, that is the law.
1401. And if it was refused, would it be a violation of the law;
I should think so.
1402. In the event of any one of the clerks refusing access to the amended
Statistical Report, would he be liable to be summoned before a magistrate
I am not sure of that ; the application, I should think, ought to be made to
the Board.
1403. Do you mean to say that any ratepayer ought to make a formal appli-
cation to the Board before he has access to this information ?
I am merely giving my opinion ; I know it is the law that all ratepayers may
have access to it, but how they have access is another question. The natural
way, I should think, is for them to come to the Board. We have had several
cases in which ratepayers have come to the Board. For instance, a case in
Camberwell, where Mr. Fleming, a clergyman, suggested to us to alter our site,
and at his suggestion we went into the case, and altered our site. We had a
suggestion from Mr. Ormiston, in the Caledonian-road; he was going to build
his school; accordingly we abandoned our school. We had a suggestion from
Bermondsey ; a clergyman there, and two or three gentlemen who accompanied
him, waited upon the committee, and we acted upon that suggestion, and gave
up our school. We had a suggestion from Lord Camden's trustees to change a
site, and we have done according to their wish ; and we have had a suggestion to
alter the access to a school in another case, and we have done so. If ever the
inhabitants of a locality have come to us and represented that a school is not
wanted, or that another position is better, we have listened to them most carefully,
and gone into the figures, and have been most happy, where their case has been
a good one, to carry out their wishes.
1404. It has been stated that you have not in any case, so far as I know,
originated any communication with the local managers in the different localities;
is that so :
As far as I am personally concerned, I should think that to be my duty.
1405. Chairman.] Have they not due notice of your intention to erect a school
in a particular site
We give them no notice, excepting that the site is scheduled and advertised
properly, and posted on the church doors in November; and they have an oppor-
tunity of reading the records in the public press of the weekly doings of the
Board. We sit with open doors, and transact all our business before the public.
1406. They cannot be ignorant, therefore, of your intentions ?
They cannot possibly.
1407. Earl Beauchamp.] You told us that there had been an accident to a
child in Essex-street
I have merely been told that as a piece of information this morning; the
child was killed, I think; I merely brought that forward as an illustration.
1408. In what way was the child killed P
Run over, I believe. It was told me as a matter of information.
1409. It
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER confirm ATION BILL. 137
"...º.
1409. It is hearsay evidence on your part?
62S. -
1410. Lord Lawrence.] Do we not in these schools allow children, where it is
shown that the parents are very poor, to go barefoot to the school 2
Yes. I was in a school in the Tower Hamlets the other day where there were
13 children without shoes and stockings, and yet they paid a penny fee.
1411. We would not raise an objection to the children coming barefoot if the
parents were very poor P
Not the slightest.
1412. Duke of Cleveland.] The objection is on the part of the parents; they
do not like to send them barefoot ?
Yes. -
1413. Earl Beauchamp.] Is it within your knowledge that any child has been
injured by the tramway ?
No, I never heard of a case,
1414. You are familiar with this thoroughfare of Essex-street, and never
heard of an accident there 2
Excepting this one that I have just spoken of.
The Witness is directed to withdraw,
Mr. C. W. ISITT, is called in ; and Examined, as follows:
1415. Lord Lawrence.] You were present on Friday last, and heard what the
Rev. Mr. Allen said with regard to his interview with you on one occasion;
have you anything that you would like to say on the subject?
A statement was made, something to this effect, that I had told Mr. Allen that
statistics would prove anything; I thought that needed some explanation. I
have noticed the difficulty that your Lordships have had in referring to our mul–
tifarious reports, and I think it would be better if you understood how the figures
were put before the Committee, and how it was decided where to build schools.
1416. I only wish you to speak now with reference to what you said to Mr.
Allen; have you anything to say as regards what happened between you and
Mr. Allen by way of explanation ?
The figures as put before the Committee, of deficiency or excess in these blocks,
were written on tracings of the map under consideration, the excesses in red
figures, and the deficiencies in black figures, in the blocks. In Islington, A. L.,
for instance, appeared an excess of 700 in red figures, and in the other blocks
there appeared in black figures the deficiencies, or in red figures the excesses,
as the case might be. There are several excess blocks in Finsbury, and the
gentlemen who have objected to the action of the Board have generally been
fond of these blocks, and they have so grouped them as to take in, in every
case, subdivisions where there are excesses, and so prove their own case,
and show that a school is not wanted. Now it is possible that we might have
had an objector come from block A. S. (the block on the opposite side of A. L.),
and he would have claimed the right of using the excess in A. L., to provide for
the children in his block. It was very evident that these excess blocks could
only be used once, and care was taken in the committee, as soon as a block was
disposed of, not to consider it again, as it was not available for both sides,
but only for one. My statement to Mr. Allen was, that if the blocks were
grouped just so as to suit the individual wishes of each of the objectors to the
action of the Board, they would be enabled by that process to prove that schools
were not wanted. The plan of the Board is complete in itself; every block, whether
having an excess or deficiency, has been taken into account once for all.
1417. It was that which you meant, in saying that the figures might be so
manipulated as to serve any purpose?
Yes.
1418. Did you not tell Mr. Allen and Mr. Stanham that, should they want
to make any complaint on any point connected with these groupings or selection
of sites, they could apply to the Board 2
Rev. J. Rodgers.
27th May 1873.
Mr. C. ſy. Isitt.
(119.) S I gave
138 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT committee on
Mr. C. W. Isitt.
27th May 1873.
Mr. G. H. Croad.
sº
I gave them every information that I could ; a great deal of my time has been
taken up by gentlemen who have called for information, and, as far as possible,
I have given it cheerfully; and I told Mr. Stanham and Mr. Allen what course
they must pursue if they wished to memorialise the Board.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr. GEORGE HECTOR CROAD, is recalled ; and further Examined,
as follows:
1419. Lord Lawrence.] I wish to ask you a question with reference to Ques-
tions and Answers 125 to 131. You there state that the total number on the
rolls in the spring of 1871 was 299,142, that the average attendance was
203,765, and that the per-centage of absence was about 33 per cent. ; do you
wish to make any explanation upon that subject :
The explanation that I would wish to offer is this. Lord Beauchamp referred
me to page 53 of our Report ; he referred me to the total number of scholars on
the roll; and also to the total number of children in actual attendance, and, com-
paring the two, he asked me what the per-centage of absence was. Now I was
previously aware of the circumstance which I am going to mention, but at the
moment it slipped my memory. In the column of number of scholars on the
roll, are included a number of scholars who had actually no existence whatever,
but who are placed there as corresponding to the places in projected schools,
which were in the previous column. Inasmuch as they only corresponded to
places which were in the future, of course those children could not be in the
actual attendance column. Subtracting, therefore, from the 299,142, which is
the number of scholars on the roll, 40,154, who should not be there, because they
were not on the roll at all, and were entirely prospective, we get at this result, that,
comparing the number of scholars really on the roll with the corresponding number
in average attendance, the per-centage of absences throughout the whole of the
efficient schools in the metropolis, reckoning every school which is efficient,
from schools which are the very best, down to schools which have only just
barely been admitted (many of which have since been condemned), the total
number of absences is, on the average, only 21 per cent. for all causes whatso-
ever; and the 33 per cent, in point of fact, which has so often been referred to,
is purely, as far as the efficient schools are concerned, a creature of the imagi-
nation.
1420. Earl Beauchamp.] In point of fact, are we to understand that the
calculations of the Board are based upon fictitious figures 2
If your Lordship will kindly turn to the Report, it will illustrate itself in a
m Oſment.
1421. Are we to understand that on that column, page 53, the number of
scholars on the roll is fictitious?
So far fictitious, that we have placed on it a number of prospective scholars,
in order to correspond with the number of projected places; there are a few
lines in the Report on page 85, which make it perfectly obvious.
i422. Duke of Cleveland.] Did you put them on this roll, on the supposition
that such a number of children would be introduced, finding that there was a
great deficiency of scholars
Yes, we placed them there, considering that so many schools were going to
be opened, that there would be that number of scholars in them, and that they
therefore would not require to be provided for. On page 85 you will see 19,934
scholars on the roll, and underneath stands, in italics, 1,792; and the same
thing is repeated for each of the divisions; those children have no existence at
all ; if you cast your eye to the left you will see 2,341 projected places; as
is explained in the beginning of the Report, the Roman figures are the number
of places already provided, and the italics are only for that which is projected ;
this is a most important difference. Throughout the whole of the efficient
schools in London the average absence is only 23 for all causes. Your Lord-
ships will see that the 33 per cent. must be abandoned.
1423. The
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER confirm ATION BILL.
139.
*
Exactly so;
1,792.
1423. The 33 per cent. comprised certain children that
would be on the roll, but who never were on the roll 7
now corresponding to those 2,341 we have in the
1424. Earl Beauchamp.] What does that mean * *
It means that for 2,341 school places we presume that there would be about
1,792 who would be placed on the rolls; the latter would never be actually up
to the number of school places, because the number on the rolls is almost always
something less than the accommodation; but these were non-existent entirely.
you have supposed
next column
1425. Lord Lawrence.] Questions were asked of you as to the expense of the
sites, and the expense of the schools that we have built ; I believe you have
made a statement showing, up to the latest date that you could, what the schools
had actually cost, both in sites and in building; will you hand that state-
ment in 7
The same is handed in, and is as follows:–
SITES purchased, and Amount of Tender for Schools.
tºmºmº Sites. Area: Accom- Price of Site. Amount
Square Feet. modation. of Tender.
- £. s. d. £. s. d.
City - - º - ſºme tº- º- tº-
Chelsea - - - 3 77,780 2,502 4,573 16 10 | 18,317 2 –
Finsbury * - º 5 89,745 5,239 19,366 17 – 37,337 9 6
Greenwich - º 5 100,242 3,839 7,941 6 6 29,282 15 2
Hackney - - 7 120,263 8,701 24,019 13 2 || 51,492 19 6
Lambeth - º 6 147,024 5,636 12,593 4 7 | 40,032 5 10
Marylebone - º tº- — º *mºs --
Southwark - - 4 65,116 4,172 11,845 12 8 28,563 14 –
Tower Hamlets - 10 274,637 11,178 41,724 3 2 | 72,569 14 4
Westminster - gº as- -*. º- * -sº
40 874,807 41,267 . 122,064 13 11 |277,596 – 4
Average Area for each Site -> - - - º º - 21,871
,, . Accommodation - ditto - t- wº- tº- º - 1,032
,, Price - -* - ditto - t- wº- wº- sº - £. 3,052
;, Amount of Tender t- -> -> º - ems - £. 6,940 .
£. s. d.
Average Cost of Site per Child º º- tº- - - 2 19 2
30 , School , º tº º dº º - 6 1 4 6
DIVISION OF CHELSEA.
Area : - Amount
SITE. Square Feet. Accommodation. Price of Site. of Tender for
School.
£. s. d. £. s. d.
Cook’s Ground (H.) - tº 25,000 619 1,011 7 – 5,153 16 6
Eel Brook Common (Q.) tº 21,780 767 1,652 1 0 – 5,668 5 6
Warnington-road (A.B.) - º; 31,000 1,116 1,909 19 10 7,495 – —
ToTAI, - - Three 77,780 2,502 4,573 T6 10 | 18,317 2 –
DIVISION OF FINSBURY.
St. John’s Lane (R.) - - 9,934 8 18 4,901 15 - || 4,825 — —
York road (T.) º -> º 15,900 1,407 2,587 l l 6 9,586 9 –
New Winchester-street (AG.) - 20,807 1,212 8,561 3 - || 9,345 6 6
Blundell-street (AU.), - º 13,604 836 2,736 7 6 || 6,758 19 6
Cottenham-road (B.B.) - º 29,500 966 580 – — 6,821 14 6
ToTAL - - Five 89,745 5,239 19,366 17 – 37,337 9 6
Mr. G. H. Croad.
27th May 1873.



(119.)
S 2
140 MINUTES
OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
|Mr. G. H. Croad.
27th May 1873.
Af Area: g Amount
SITE. Square F Accommodation. Price of Site. of Tender for
quare Feet.
School.
£. s. d. £. s. d.
Hughes' Field (B.) - º tº º 18,730 775 1,551 18 4 5,850 – —
Creek-road (B.) - - - 13,600 768 990 8 6 5,758 – —
Powis-street (H.) - gº tº- 23,700 665 2,819 13 6 3,847 10 2
Kender-street (J.) - tº tºº 22,884 829 1,530 5 – 6,899 15 —
Woodpecker-road (K.) - - 21,328 802 1,049 l 2 6,927 10 –
ToTAL - - Five 100,242 3,839 7,941 6 6 29,282 15 2
DIVISION OF HACKNEY.
Olga-street (N.), : - - - 21,971 1,088 2,011 2 – 6,828 – —
Globe Terrace (Q) - gº tº 14,440 1,100 3,015 18 10 || 7,178 – —
Maidstone-street (Q.) * > º 14,880 1,190 4,507 l l 8 7,552 13 –
Claremont-street (R.) - - 7,505 819 3,508 17 8 || 1,985 1 –
Wilmot-street (T) - - - 20,802 J,700 2,823 6 6 10,973 19 6
Turin-street (V.) - & * > 29,000 1,665 4,688 2 6 || 10,828 6 —
Hamond Square (Y.) - - ll,665 1,139 3,464 14 – 6,147 – —
y ToTAL - - Seven 120,263 8,701 24,019 13 2 || 51,492 19 6
DIVISION OF LAMBETH.
Harper-street (P.) - tº a tº-e 13,228 1,164 4,632 – 4 7,506 14 1
Lower Wandsworth-road (C. J.) 23,000 1,078 2,313 l l l 7,549 – —
New-road (C.O.). - º ( ; 12,800 1,087 1,648 16 4 6,430 – —
Battersea-road (C. X.) - - 32,670 906 2,252 15 — 6,736 l 9
Bolingbroke-road (C. Z.) - - 54,426 589 660 - - || 5,638 – —
Winstanley-road (D. D.) - a 10,900 8] 2 1,086 II — 6,172 10 –
ToTAL - - Six 147,024 5,636 12,593 4 7 40,032 5 10
DIVISION OF SOUTHWARR.
Hunter-street (R.) - & º 22,481 1,178 4,523 13 6 7,574 14 –
Russell-street (S.) - sº tº 6,175 769 2,937 17 — 5,544 – -
Monnow-road (A. A.) - tº 16,760 1,167 1,884 2 2 8, 148 — —
Jamaica Level (A. E.) - gº 19,700 1,058 2,500 — — 7,297 — —
ToTAL - - Four 65,116 4,172 11,845 12 8 || 28,563 14 –
DIVISION OF TOWER HAMLETs.
Old Castle-street (A.) - tº a 36,010 1,272 1 1,688 – 2 9,504 9 3
Gloucester-street (D.) - *E. 14,904 1,051 3,895 16 8 || 9,034 8 6
High-street, Shadwell (H.) - 14,605 7.58 5,000 — — . 2,093 5 —
Essex-street (I.) - tº tº 20,525 1,145 4,659 4 2 6,711 3 7
Johnson-street (N.)- - - 22,670 1,675 3,160 6 - | 12,549 10 6
North Bow (Q.) - gº tº 65,340 1,123 2,853 5 – 8,150 11 —
St. Paul’s-road (S.)- - - 27,783 1,203 2,234 15 6 || 8,410 II –
Old Ford (V.) º tº º { } 21,780 804 1,114 5 8 6,368 14 –
Mary-street (X.) - * † * > 21,780 1,01 I 1,010 10 – 6,951 l l 6
Broad-street (L.) - tº e tº 19,240 1,136 6,108 – — 2,795 10 –
ToTAL - - Ten 274,637 11,178 41,724 3 2 | 72,569 14 4
DIVISION OF GREENWICH.






1426. Earl Beauchamp.] How do you arrive at the 40,154 to be deducted
from the 299,142 on the rolls
For the City of London, page 65, there are 450 ; Chelsea, page 85, there are
1,792; Finsbury, page 111, there are 3,802; Greenwich, page 129, there are
4,997;
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. 141
4,997; Hackney, page 153, there are 6,081 ; Lambeth, page 201, there are Mr. G. H. Croad.
4,563; Marylebone, page 227, there are 4,951; Southwark, page 249, there 27th May 1873.
are 3,461; Tower Hamlets, page 269, there are 7,900, and for Westminster,
page 285, there are 2,157. Those added together would give the 40,154.
1427. Lord Lawrence.] Have you a Paper showing your account for the dis-
posal of every thousand of the population ?
Yes; it is an explanation of what the one-sixth theory is, in order that dif-
ferent parts of the evidence may be compared with it. It will be seen by this
paper that a deduction of one-seventh is made for the upper and middle classes,
and that 17.5 per cent. has also been deducted for all causes of absence.
The Paper is handed in, and is as follows:–
TABLE showing the steps by which the Theory has been arrived at, that Schools
shall be provided for one in six of the Population.
POPULATION 1,000.
23.4 per cent. will be the total number of children between 3 and 13 tº- 234
Deduct one-seventh for upper and middle classes - - - - - 33
201
Deduct 17°5 per cent. for all causes of absence, permanent and temporary - 35
166
166 is 16.6 per cent. of the population, or one in six.
51 between 3 and 5 years of age.
and 183 between 5 and 13 , 55
234 between 3 and 13 years of age in every 1,000 of the population.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
The following Paper was handed in by the Solicitor to the Board :-
ABSTRACT of CENSUS RETURNS, 1871.

Average per
Furnished Average d; House .
Division. # In ISILé Population. | Per House of t I º, * | Children be-
OUISéS. Population. .# º: tween Three
3.I] *| and Thirteen.
City - - - t- 9,305 74,897 6. I 13,027 1°4
Chelsea - tº tº 34,909 257,429 7-3 49,355 1 *4
Finsbury - - - 49,991 443,655 8'8 89,032 1-7
Greenwich - --> - 37,098 238,264 6-2 52,321 I*4.
Hackney - - i- 49,259 362,378 7.3 83,453 1°6
Lambeth - º tº- 78,733 533,430 6° 119,096 1°5
Marylebone - Q- 56,638 509,813 8°] 94,341 I '6
Southwark - - - 26,965 208,725 7.7 48,204 I '8
Tower Hamlets - G- 51,310 391,790 7-6 92,870 I*S
Westminster tº- tº- 25,434 246,606 9°6 39,902 I "5
ToTALs - - - || 3,265,005 419,303 7'4 681,101 1°6
The Reverend GEORGE ALLEN, is recalled ; and further Examined,
as follows:
1428. Lord Beauchamp.] IN the calculations that you have made, you have Rev. G. Allen.
gone upon the belief that this Blue Book must be your guide P tº ºmg
I have gone upon the Blue Book, page 290.
1429. And you had no knowledge that any other statistics were being prepared?
I had no knowledge that they were published, or even being prepared; I had
no knowledge about them. I rested entirely upon this page 290 of the Blue
Book.
(119.) S 3 1430. I
142 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
Rev. G. Allen.
27th May 1873.
1430. I asked you to be good enough to make a calculation with regard to the
number of vacancies in the existing efficient schools; have you done so q
Here is a return made out from the returns in the Blue Book of the London
School Board (producing a Return).
1431. It appears from this that the number of children provided for in fully
efficient schools is 5,622, and that the number of children on the rolls in fully
approved schools is 4,701 ?
Yes.
1432. So that there are actual vacancies at this moment of 920 places :
Yes, I think so. I have taken all the schools fully approved, and the schools
approved partially, that is to say, efficient in instruction or in building (both
characters are counted in by the Board), and I find that there is room for 6,637
children in the schools approved by the Board. In these blocks, they say that
accommodation is wanted for 6,595 ; therefore, there is an excess of 42, taking
the schools which are approved by the Board, and taking the number of children
who require to be educated.
1433. It appears that if this dangerous crossing at Essex-street did not exist, it
is not impossible that block A.L. might have been united with block A.M.; you
know the Essex-road, I think, very well ?
I have known it from childhood.
1434. And you told us the other day that children now attending school in
A.L. come from that district A.M. 2
Yes, many of them.
1435. Do you know the Caledonian-road?
It runs through my parish, and taking it in comparison with the other road, it
is the more dangerous road of the two ; there is traffic not only on market days,
but always a heavy traffic from King's Cross. The Upper-street is a more
dangerous crossing than Essex-road.
1436. At all events, whatever dangers may exist, they do not exercise a deter-
rent influence on the population at present? -
No ; 600 children cross the Roman-road and the Caledonian-road to Mr.
Harrison's schools. I have hundreds of children in Iny own schools who cross the
Caledonian-road. I have schools for above 1,000 children, and I should Say that
the half of them came from the other side of the Caledonian-road.
1437. In your evidence the other day, you did not intend to make any charge
against the statistical clerk, did you?
Certainly not. I am sorry the matter was referred to ; it would not have been
mentioned but for Lord Lawrence's question. When we went, we considered
that we were received abruptly ; Mr. Isitt was extremely busy; busy men are
apt to be hasty; but, as a gentleman, he apologised, and the matter entirely
dropped. I have not the slightest wish to impute any neglect of his duty to Mr. Isitt.
1438. You are secretary to a society, are you not?
Honorary Secretary to the Islington Schools Society.
n 429. That society was formed a few months ago, was it not?
At a deanery meeting held in December last.
1440. You began to compare your experiences with your brethren, and it was
resolved to take some concerted action, and it took some time to get that machi-
nery into motion?
Yes.
\441. Lord Lawrence.] Are you aware that under clause 37, section 7, of the
Act of 1870, it is provided that “The School Board for London shall proceed at
once to supply their district with sufficient public school accommodation, and any
requisition sent by the Education Department to such Board may relate to any
of the divisions mentioned in the Fifth Schedule to this Act, in like manner as if
it were a school district ; and it shall not be necessary for the Education Depart-
ment to publish any notices before sending such requisition”?
I was not aware of that clause.
1442. You perceive that under that the Board are bound to arrange to supply
the deficiency of education?
Yes, and we, I suppose, are bound to object if we have cause for objection.
1443. Earl
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL, 143
*
1443. Earl Beauchamp.] May I ask what we are to understand by the word
“ divisions.” The word “divisions,” as I apprehend it in that clause, does not
apply to A. M., and so on, but to all the school districts taken together
I should imagine so.
1444. The Act says that the division shall be made by districts; it does not
say that the district is to be divided into sub-divisions, does it?
I cannot see that it does ; I may say that our society only came into existence
in December, and objection has been made to this particular site by Mr. Stanham,
the minister of that special district, who would be called upon to notice it.
1445. Lord Lawrence.] He did not write to the Board?
He thought that he was doing the best thing in speaking to Mr. Tabrum, the
member of the Board for Finsbury.
1446. Are you not aware that if he had written to the Chairman or Vice
Chairman of the Board they would have paid attention to his communication ?
In any future case we will avail ourselves of such a privilege.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
The Reverend WILLIAM ROBERT MORRISON, is called in ; and Examined,
as follows:
1447. Chairman.] DID you apply to the office for the Report 2
More than once; two or three times I applied for it, and I was told that
no such minutes were to be obtained; but in the last fortnight I asked for
the amended Statistical Report, and I stated the reason, because I represented a
body at the Deanery; Mr. Allen and I were the secretaries for a committee of
the Deanery, and in order to be guided in our proceedings, I wished to have the
latest authentic statements from the Board, and I was distinctly informed that
such returns were not to be obtained; and to-day is the first time that I ever
heard these figures which have been mentioned by Mr. Rodgers. My own
parish is not affected by these schools; but Mr. Allen and I were appointed to
represent the entire Deanery of Islington in these matters.
1448. Lord Lawrence.] To whom did you apply?
I went into the office, and addressed the gentlemen who were nearest to the
counter.
1449. You asked some of the clerks, in fact 2
Yes.
1450. Did you ask to see the papers? ſº
I said that we should be glad to see the latest statistics on these points.
1451. It is not the Board's business to furnish papers to applicants; but it is
the Board's business to show any ratepayers' papers which they may wish
to see :
In that case we were under a misapprehension ; as we were acting for
a public body, we wished to have the most exact information on these
oints; and I certainly thought that a stranger could go into the office and
obtain the latest statements; we have learnt to-day that that is not the course, and
that in place of applying as we did, we should have written to the Board.
1452. Do you understand that, under the Act, we are bound to show the
papers, to give access to the papers, and to show any returns?
I had not the slightest doubt that the gentlemen to whom I spoke were
anxious to do all that was right in our case, and on their reply I immediately
bowed and left; I certainly left the office with the impression that they
were not published; I thought that they were not then published.
1453. Not as regards the public generally, but there they were, and you could
have seen them if you had asked 2
I certainly left the office, under the impression that they were not published.
Rev. G. Allen.
27th May 1873.
Rev. W. R.
Morrison.
(J 19.) S 4 1454. If
144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:-ELEMENTARY EDUCATION, &c. BILL.
Rev. W. R. !
Morrison.
27th May 1873.
1454. If you had written to me, or to the Vice Chairman of the Board, are
you not aware that we would have made a point of attending to your request ?
I may state that our object was nothing in the shape of hostility to the Board;
neither the Deanery, nor any gentlemen that we represent, had the slightest
wish to do anything in the way of obstruction to the Board. We merely wished
to go into these details, as we heard that they would be published, and to be
furnished with full particulars. This was the question which we felt required
inspection, and I am still deeply convinced that it did require the very closest
inspection, this particular matter of the Anglers' Garden site.
1455. Admitting that, and without imputing any blame to you or to Mr.
Allen, still you can see that the Board were only bound to meet you in the way
that the Act of Parliament points out ; and, while you had no hostility towards
the Board, surely you do not conceive that the Board could have had any
hostility to you, or to the gentlemen representing the Church
Certainly; I never supposed that they had anything of the kind ; I did not
suppose that any of the members of the Board had.
1456. Lord Beauchamp.] Still you went to the office to get information, and
that you failed to obtain 7
Not only that, but I left under the impression that I could not possibly get it.
There was no hint given that there was any channel through which I could
obtain it. To go now to another subject, I have evidence on this subject of the
crossing to give. I am here distinctly to contravene a statement of Mr. Rodgers
with regard to the two highways of Esssex-road and High-street. I distinctly
deny the statement that the Essex-road is a more important or populous high-
way than the High-street, Islington. I distinctly affirm that there are far greater
reasons, on the score of intervening thoroughfares, for joining A. L. with A. M.,
than with T., far away on the other side; and that there is a much larger traffic
down the main street, High-street, Islington, than down the Essex-road. My
church is in the Essex-road, and I am perfectly conversant with the neighbourhood.
1457. Lord Lawrence.] I went there yesterday, and without putting my judg-
ment against yours in the matter, it struck me that the Essex-road is a great
thoroughfare?
It is a great thoroughfare.
1458. There is a double tramway on it, is there not ?
The trams were long in existence on the Upper-street before they were on the
Essex-road, where they have been for about a year, and at this moment, I think,
your Lordship will find that there are three or four omnibuses or trams on the
main Upper-street of Islington for one that traverses Essex-road. All the traffic
of the Highbury and Holloway ounnibuses go up in that direction. I am furnished
with statistics as to the crossing of the Essex-road; the secretary of our com-
mittee investigated the matter, and found that a very large proportion of children
crossed this identical street, Essex-road. We have gone into the matter, and find
that a large proportion of the scholars in the schools in block A. L. come from
A. M., and every day cross the Essex-road, and vice versä. We say this after a
careful examination of school registers.
1459. Admitting that, would it not be better if they did not
We affirm that A. L., on every possible ground, should be joined with the group
in which A. M. is, and that it has nothing in common with T., on the other side.
Independently of the great space between T. and A. L., there are two broad
thoroughfares between T. and this block, There is the Caledonian-road, on which
I venture to state that there is a far greater traffic than Mr. Rodgers mentioned;
it is not confined to Monday morning alone.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Friday, the 20th June, Eleven
o'clock.
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