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REPORT AND


PROCEEDINGS


OF THE


SENATE COMMITTEE
POINTED TO INVESTIGAT
THE   POLICE DEPARTMENT
OF T1


CITY OF


NEW YORK.


VOL. I.


TRANSMITTED TO THE LEGISLATURE JANUARY 18, 1895
ALBANY:
JAMES B. LYON, STATE PRINTER.
1895.




_ _




__ __


INVESTIGATION
OF THE
POLICE DEPARTMENT
OF TEE


CITY OF


NEW YORK.


Proceedings from March 9 to June 5, 1894.




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t-t4-41
~4.  
I..33Sl.'STATE OF NEW YORK
No. 63.
IN SENATE,
JAx"UAY 18, 1895.
r[                  REPORT
OF THE
SPEOCAt COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO NVESSTGXTE TIHE
POLICE DEPARTMENT OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK.
In presenting this report, it is not the intention of your committee to submit a comprehensive analysis of the work performed and the results attained, but rather to accentuate the
salient features of a record which, when closely scrutinized, will
disclose conditions in a department of municipal government
undreamed of at the time of the inception of the inquiry, and
justly challenging the most serious attention of the Legislature.
Inasmuch as your committee owed its origin primarily to resolutions passed by various prominent and representative commericial and municipal reform organizations of the city of New York,
wherein sweeping and specific charges were made against the
police department of said city, it waas asumed that specific proof
was at hand ahd would be offered to sustain them. We found,
however, at the threshold of our labors, that the charges made
were intended to be general in their character and that there
was not a scintilla of positive or affirmative evidence to substan.


* 




4


tiate them. Thus it became the duty of your committee, for
itself, through such agencies as were available, to prosecute its
inquiry into the affairs of said department, and thereby to itself
substantiate by testimony charges which it was assumed would
be supported by proof already collected. The true volume of
labor accomplished cannot be measured by the testimony actually
adduced, and yet that which is presented with this report will
indicate the magnitude and gravity of the undertaking. The
record shows a total of 10,576 pages of proceedings. This does
not include a mass of documentary exhibits which were read
and considered in evidence, for the purpose of information. Of
this testimony, 1,077 pages embrace the subject-matter of police.
interference at the polls, and the balance, or almost 9,500 pages
refer to the subject-matter of blackmail, extortion and corruplion. In all, 678 witnesses were examined, of whom eighty-one
were examined on the first and 597 on the second branch of the
inquiry. In all about 3,000 subpoenas were served, of which
upwards of 2,750 were with reference to the second branch of
the inquiry. 
While during 'the first stages of the investgation, the difficulty lay mainly in ability to procure testimony, as the investigation progressed, as public sentiment became more and more
aroused, Eaid the developments assumed from day to day a more
startling aspect, the number of witnesses and the variety of testimony offered increased prodigiously, and the main difficulty
finally lay in sifting the good from the mass and in rejecting
hat which was purely cumulative.  ' i i  i |     i
In this connection attention may, with propriety, be directed
to the valuable services rendered to your committee by the Hon.
William A. Sutherland, who served as counsel with reference to
that bran'ch of the investigation which dealt with police interference at the polls. It is due mainly to his services, rendered
nnder peculiarly trying circumstances in connection with a'
branch of the inquiry which did not meet at thle time with the
same degree of public approval as did the investigation into the
general subject of police corruption and extortion, that your
committee is able to place before this body revelations demon



5


strating the manner and method prevailing during recent years
in the conduct of elections in the city of New York, which must
be of absorbing interest to the people of this State. The branch
of the investigation conducted by him apart from sentimental
considerations so closely touches the interests of all the people,
affecting as it does the right of every citizen within this jurisdiction to cast but one ballot and to have that ballot counted as
cast, that it furnishes in itself abundant reason for legislative
insistence upon conditions that will measurably prevent a recurrence of manifest fraud against the whole people so conclusively
established.
Upon the second branch of the investigation, your committee
was especially fortunate in having at the outset the active support and co-operation of many representative organizations,
notably of the Society for the Prevention of Crime, and its distinguished president, Dr. Charles H. Parkhurst; of the Chamber
of Commerce, represented by Charles Stewart Smith, Esq, and
of the metropolitan newspapers, whose intelligent co-operation
and loyal assistance contributed very largely to final success.
Justice requires the further statement that from the very
inception of the investigation down to its close the district attorney acted in entire harmony with your committee, voluntarily
placing at its disposal his own services and those of his assistants, together with the facilities and authority of his office, while
the higher criminal courts aided in every proper way to facilitate
our work.
'These important auxiliaries very materially strengthened the
hands of your committee and increased its influence in the community, until as a consequence your committee was enabled to
accomplish results which under other circumstances would
probably have been unattainable.
The second branch of the investigation was under the special
charge of Hon. John W. Goff, now recorder of the city of New
York, ably assisted by William Travers Jerome and Frank Moss.
The services of Mr. Goff call for special comfmendation from your
committee. At every stage of the inquiry he proved himself fully
equal to the laborious task imposed upon him and prosecuted




the examTnation of witnesses ably, relentlessly and fearTessly,
bringing to the service of your committee a zeal and devotion to
duty, a tireless industry and a degree of ability certainly never
surpassed and probably never before equalled in a legislative
investigation.
It is proper to add that two of the named counsel were Democrats and the other a Republican and that throughout the proceedings the inquiry was conducted wholly upon non-partisan
lines, that the party affiliations of no person connected with the
police department were considered, and that the controlling
purpose of your committee was and at all stages continued to
be to elicit the true condition of affairs without respect to person
or parte,:
First Resolution.;
The resoTulioh under which your committee made the investigation which is the special subject of this report, was adopted on
the 30th day of January, 1894, and reads as follows:
Whereas, It has been charged and maintained that the police
department of the city of New York is corrupt; that grave abuses
exist in said department; that in said city the laws for the suppression of crime and the municipal ordinances and regulations
duly enacted for the peace, security, order and the police of said
city are not strictly enforced by said department and by the
police force acting thereunder; that said laws and ordinances
when enforced are enforced by said department and said police
force with partiality and favoritism, and that said partiality and
favoritism are the result of corrupt bargains between offenders
against said laws or ordinances on the one hand and said department and police force on the other; that money and promise of
service to be rendered are given and paid to public officials by
the keepers or proprietors of gaming houses, diisorderly houses
or liquor saloons or others who have offended or are offending
against said laws or ordinances, in exchange for promises of
immunity from punishment or police interference; and that said
department and said police force, by means of threats and other



1


wise, extort money or otlier valuable consideration from many
persons in said city as the price of such immunity from police
interference or punishment for real or supposed violations of
said laws and ordinances; and
Whereas, a strong public sentiment demands of this Senate an
investigation of all the matters above-mentioned for the purpose
of remedying and preventing such abuses by proper legislation;
now, therefore, be it,
Resolved, That the president pro. tempore of the Senate be
and he hereby is authorized to appoint seven Senators who shall
lie a special committee of this Senate and one of whom: shall be
the president pro tempore, with power and authority to investi'gate all and singular the aforesaid matters and charges, and that
said committee have full power and authority to investigate
all and singular the aforesaid matters and charges, and that
said committee have full power to prosecute its inquiries in any
and every direction, in its judgment, necessary and proper to
enable it to obtain and report the information required by this
resolution; that said committee report to the Senate with suchI
recommendations as in its judgment the public interests require; -
said committee is given authority to send for persons and papers
to employ stenographers and such counsel and other assistants
as it may deem necessary, and to hold sessions in the cities of
New York and Albany. The committee shall conclude its investi,
gations in time to report to the Senate on or before February 20,
1895, to the end that proper legislation may be enacted to suppress said evil. The sergeant-at-arms of the Senate shall attend
said committee and serve all subpoenas issued thereby and perform all duties as sergeant-at-arms of such committee; and be
it further,
Resolved, That it is the sense of this Senate that it is contrary
fo public policy and to the interests of good order that any
person giving evidence before said committee tending to showthat he has been a party to the practice above-mentioned should
be indicted or prosecuted upon evidence so given or admissions
so made by him, 
J/




Thaal thereaffer sald resolution was amended so as to enable
your committee to continue its investigation until finally and on
the 8th day of March, 1894, a preamble and resolution was
adopted as follows:
Final Amendatory Resolution.
Whereas, by resolution (Senate Doe. No. 27) on the 30th day
of January, 1894, a committee was duly appointed by the Senate
to investigate the police department of the city of New York,
and thereafter on February 15, 1894, the time within which said
committee was directed to make a report was extended to the
end of this session, and
Whereas, It appears that it is impracticable to mAlhk a report
within the time so limited; therefore,
Resolved, That said committee be and it is hereby authorized
and empowered to continue the investigation in said Senate
Document No. 27, and said resolution of February 15, 1894, provided for during the recess of this Senate, and that said committee have all the power and authority during said recess conferred upon it in and by said resolution.
Resolved, That said committee be and it is hereby authorized
and empowered in its discretion until the next session of the
Senate, in 1895, to examine and investigate the departments of
the commissioners of charities and correction, excise, and the
police courts of the city of New York, or such of them. as it may
deem proper and expedient, with the same power and authority
until the said next session of the Senate conferred upon it by
virtue of said resolution; and, further,
Resolved, That such committee be instructed to report at the
next session of this Senate and not later than January 15, 1895.
That on the 5th day of April, 1894, a bill was passed by the
Senate providing for the payment of the expenses of your committee as follows:
t




A4rpropriation Bill to Defray Counsel Fees and Expenses of
Committee.
IN SENATE- No. 669.
'AI ACT to provide for the payment of the expenses of the Senate
committee appointed to investigate the police department of
the city of New York.
The People of the State of New York, represented in Seate
and Ass8mbly, do enact as follows:
Section 1. The sum of twenty-five thousand dollars or so much
thereof as may be necessary, is hereby appropriated out of any
moneys in the treasury not otherwise appropriated, for the
purpose of defraying the counsel fees and expenses of the committee of the Senate appointed to investigate the police department of the city of New York.
~ 2. Such sum, or so much thereof as may be required, may be
paid out by the comptroller of this State on a warrant signed by
the chairman of said committee and countersigned by the president pro tempore of the senate.
~ 3. This act shall take effect immediately.
On the 8th day of May, 1894, by memorandum filed with said
bill, the Governor refused to approve the same, which said memorandum is as follows:
Veto, Senate Bill No. 659, Making an Appropriation for a
Senate Investigation Gommittee.
STATE OF NEW YORK:
EXECrTIVE CHABER,           I
ALBANY, May 18, 1894. 
Memorandum bIled with Senate bill No. 669, entitled "An act
to provide for the payment of the expenses of the Senate committee appointed to investigate the police department of the city
of New York, acting by order of a resolution of the Senate, known
as Senate document No. 27, adopted January 13, 1894, and resolutions supplementary theretoe' Not approved;,
2




10


If I thought the purpose behind this bill was an honest one, or
that the interests of the State of New York would be benefitted by the proposed investigation, I would give the measure
my approval. But the bill has every appearance of being a misuse of public money and of legislative power for the manufacture
of political capital or the division of political patronage.
These are plain words with which to characterize an act of the
Legislature. They will not be relished by those to whom they
apply.  They will be criticised by those whose personal or
political purposes they frustrate. But I think the people understand plain language best, and when plain facts are handled they
require plain treatment.  The people are not easily deceived by
polite phrases or by language which conceals rather than
expresses thought  They like frankness best.
Periodically, when the party which is in a minority in New
York city obtains control of the State Legislature, it makes that
city the target of political attack by legislative committees.
Except for political objects, there is no good reason why that
city should be singled out for legislative scrutiny. The same
men who do the investigating in public will admit in private what
every well-informed person knows is true-that no city in the
State is so well governed as New York. No city in the State has
a lower tax rate; no city has a better police regulation; no city
has a lower ratio of crime; no city has better. streets; no city has
a better fire department; no city has better parks; no city has
better schools; no city has a better health departmentf no city
has a better credit; no city is so comfortable a place to live in.
That bad men sometimes get in office there is true. That frauds
upon the city treasury sometimes occur is true; that mal-administration sometimes happens is true; that ideal municipal government has iot yet been attained there is true; but these things
are as equally true of every city in the world, they are truer of
other cities of our State than they are of New York. They are
unavoidable in government as a priviate busness They are
frequent always where official responsibility is fixed and party
accountability is certain.  They are faults of administration
rather than of legislation, and, except in rare cases, can be




11


cured by other means than legislation.  They are evils with
which the people of the locality are primarily concerned, and the
people of the State only secondarily and remotely. Municipal
pride and local self-government both demand that the attempt
to remedy them should first be applied by the people of the
vicinage, and that resort should be had to legislative interference
only when the people are unable to help themselves.   This
municipal independence is cherished fondly by every city in the
State. It is a matter of particularly jealous regard to the people
of New York, for sad experience has demonstrated to them that
the most corrupt periods of their city government were those in
which, for divisions of political plunder and patronage, the Legislature at Albany and municipal officials in New York combine
to set at naught the will of the people, and by corrupt legislation
turn the city over to political vultures. That result is the
inevitable outcome of such dual government,
Investigations of the kind proposed by this bill do not, of
course, betray their real purpose on their face. They are urged
in the name of reform and enlist in their support the services of
many people of honest intentions who are deceived by the public
professions of the investigator. But their real character is a
matter of common knowledge and political record. If they were
sincere attempts to improve municipal governments they would
not be confined solely to Democratic cities; they would not almost
invariably be demonstrated upon one great Democratic city.
Nobody believes that municipal lessons cannot be learned at
Syracuse and Rochester as well as at New York and Troy. Ask
the citizens of Republican cities whether they suffer any municipal evils, and you will not get a negative answer; but ask them
how they cure these evils and' they will not direct you to legislative investigating committees, for these they never see in their
cities. Such instruments of reform are only used for Democratic
strongholds.
But whether such efforts are directed against particular cities,
or whether they are applied impartially, they are unjustifiable
interference with local affairs, except as furnishing information
as a basis for general legislation. This they seldom do, their




12


resulft, if they have any in legislation, are, as a rule, merely
supplementary efforts for a division or usurpation of municipal
patronage when political threats have failed. The last experience which the city of New York had with such an investigation
committee was in 1890, when the so-called Fassett committee,
professing to be inspired with the same zeal for reform which
now animates the Senate committee of 1894, ransacked many of
the municipal departments and, as a result, left five printed volumes of testimony among the State archives and one law, which
tie present Legislature has made haste substantially to repeal.
Yet it was in 1890, and is now a matter of public notoriety, that
this famous legislative committee, stirred with enthusiasm for
municipal reform, was ready at any time to discontinue its investigation if the mayor of New York would consent to a Republican
politician from Columbia county to the office of police commissioner.
It is such experiences as these which justify public suspicion
of the sincerity of motive behind legislative investigations. The
history of the past would of itself warrant such a suspicion.
But in this case there is an additional ground of suspicion which
is furnished by the actions of the legislative committee itself.
At no time during the three months and more that it has been
authorized to sit, has the committee seemed to possess the confidence of those who desired it to investigate municipal affairs
in New York. At one time it was openly charged in the public
press that the committee has already consummated a political
deal with the local authorities whereby in return for
certain municipal offices for political friends the committee
would cease its investigations into local affairs. At other times
other serious charges were made. In almost all cases these
imputations against the good faith of the committee came not
from its political enemies, but from those who were in political
sympathy or alliance with it, or from that earnest body of citizens who honestly desired a thorough investigation and who
welcomed honest legislative assistance in their own efforts to
secure good government A committee whose earnestness and
honesty of purpose are assailed by its own friends is hardly to




13


be depended upon to conduct an impartial investigation. The
asumption is fair that this effort at legislative investigation is
inspired by no higher motives and will be attended by no less
partisan conduct than was that of the Fassett committee of 1890.
Under these circumstances it will hardly be claimed by fair
minded persons that the money of tax-payers of the State should
be used to pay the campaign expenses of a political party. That
in substance is all this bill does in its appropriation of $25,000
for counsel, expenses of Senators at hotels, etc., although incidentally it would provide summer vacations for rural Senators.
In view of the experience of the past, $25,000 would not be nearly
enough to satisfy the luxurious desires of a junketing committee, or the avaricious appetites of counsel, or to
accomplish the bribery of witnesses; the actual expense
of the State would undoubtedly be much greater, and this consideration makes the objectionable character of the bill the more
deserving of criticism. It must be remembered that the recent
Legislature appointed no leas than twenty-three different investi:ating committees, with power to employ counsel,- take testimony and subpoena witnesses, and the expense of these is yet to
be borne by State taxation, for the Legislature apparently was
unwilling to call public attention to the meagre results of these
investigations by making appropriations at this session for the
expenses thus incurred. When the prodigal waste of public
money by these comnlttees is brought to the attention of the
tax-payers, the official recklessness which caused it will be generally condemned. That burden yet to be borne should not be
added to by the appropriaton provided Ly this bill.
I can not forbear calling attention, also, to the inconsistency
of the Legislature in the employment of expensive counsel for
these committees. The Legislature imperilled the annual appropriation bill for the support of the government by insisting upon
a "rider,"to the effect that the Attorney-General should designate all counsel employed by the various State bureaus and commissiona If that principle was a good one to apply to these
offices, it would seem to be a good one to apply to the twenty





14


hrenvesllgafing commnitLtees, and especially to this New Yor1k
nv~eRUgadU~g committee.
It there are people in New York who    thin  her loc'al gov.4
erminent is not a good one, it, is their privilege and their, dut.y to
make it good. The remedy should be -the same there as in other
cities of the State-by the electiona of good officers. The
majority rules in this country, and if the ma~jority wants good
government it can always secure it through the fearless exercise
of suffrage. But all change is not reform, and al investigation
Is not correction. Refoxmi by legislative investigation can only,
come when legislative investigation is honest, thorough and
n aral. But under any circumstances, it is the unnatural,
Illogical remedy. The natural remedy is close at band-watchful aud loyal citizenship. That' is the manly, strfdght forward
welcome remnedy. The emplo~yment of that remedy mnakes a
mun~cip~ality self-relianit, proud and strong. It vindicates our
theory of self governmaent and bulilds our State and our Republie
upiou a sure founuda'tiolnb
-~~ - -              B~OSWELL P. FLOWER
n Ilereupon, p~rominent mxem1~iem of the* Chamber of Commerce
of the city of New York, including Charles Stewart Smith
and Gustav IEL. Schwab, guaranteed to your committee
that counsel fees to an amount necessary to enable
tile committee to prosecute said investigation, would be
advanced upon the orderI of the chairama of your
committee, to be refunded to them at the pleasure of the Legiso
lature. While it cannot be said that this provision saved the
Investigation from failure, it having been previously determined,
to prosecute said investigation. regardless of the question. of
immediate compensation of counsel, yet the guarantees thus
given were an earnest of the strong'public sentiment whieh then
supported your committee and aided very materially in establish.
bIg that mutual coinfidence between committee and comrmunity,
which was a prerequisite to successf ul inquiry.
Pursuant to the resolution hereinbefore referred to, the followd
Ing Senators were appointed m  besot the. oomite      Jarw




15


ence I;exow, Edmund O'Connor, George W. Rolerison, Outhbler
W. Pound, Charles T. Saxton, Jacob AX  Cantor and Daniel
Bradley.
Immediately after the appointment of said committee the
various organizations that had requested the passage of said reso4
lutions were asked to furnish names of counsel from among
whom your committee would choose its legal adviser or advisers.
The names of various distinguished counsel were suggested, who,
however, because of the magnitude of the work, declined to serve.
Finally said organizations agreed upon John W. Goff, now
recorder of the city of New York, whereupon your committee
appointed William A; Sutherland of Rochester, and John W. Goff
of New York as counsel, and notified said organizations accordingly, and it was determined that the general investigation
should be divided into two parts, one relating to interference by
the police with the elective franchise, which part was confided
exclusively to William A Sutherland, and the other relating to
the charges of blackmail and general corruption, which part was
left to the exclusive management of John W. Goff.
While these matters were under discussion, your committee
proceeded to take testimony as to the first branch, and beginning
with the 9th day of March, 1894, continued on this line with such
interruptions as the absence of the Senators in the perfomance
of their legislative duties necessitated, until the 13th day of
April, 1894, when further inquiry into this branch was discontinued, and has not since been resumed. 
It is not intended, in this report, to enter upon any extended
analysis of the testimony so taken. The results-of the Anvestiga
tion up to this point may, however, be properly summarized in
the general statement that it has been conclusively shown that
in a very large number of the election districts of the city of
New York, almost every conceivable crime against the elective
franchise was either committed or permitted by the police,
invariably in the interest of the dominant Democratic organiza
tion of the city of New York, commonly called Tnamany Hall.
The crimes thus oemmitted or permitted by the police may be
classified as follows:




16


arrest and brutal treatment of Republican voters, watchers
and workers; open violations of the election laws; canvassing for
Tammany Hall candidates; invasion of election booths; forcing
of Tammany Hall pasters upon Republican voters; general
intimidation of the voters by the police directly and by Tammany
Hall election district captains in the presence and with the concurrence of the police; colonization of voters, illegal registration  and  repeating, aided  and  knowingly  permitted  by
the police; denial to Republican voters and election district  officers  of their legal rights  and  privileges; cooperation with and acquiescence in the usurpation by Tammany Hall election district captains and watchers of alleged
rights and privileges, in violation of law.
In fact, it may be stated as characteristic of the conditions
shown to exist by a cloud of witnesses that the police conducted
themselves at the several polling places upon the principle that
they were there, not as guardians of the public peace to enforce
law and order, but for the purpose of acting as agents of Tammany Hall, in securing to the candidates of that organization
by means fair or foul the largest possible majorities. They
evidently regarded themselves as coadjutors of that organization, stationed at the several polls for the purpose of securing its
success whether by lawful or unlawful means, resorting to
device, oppression, fraud, trickery, crime and intimidation of
almost every conceivable character. Owing to the suspension
of the taking of testimony upon this, in order to commence the
investigation into the more extended and locally interesting
branch, your committee is not able to furnish accurate figures
showing the effect of police crime and police interference in
matters pertaining to the elective franchise, but it is quite evident that the practices of the police exerted an important and
decisive influence upon results. This fact is made uncontrovertibly plain by comparison of the vote cast in the Second Assembly
district in the year 1893 with the vote cast in that district at
the last election.
In 1893 the judge of the Court of Appeals and minor State
officers only were candidates. In 1894 the Governorship, Lienten



17


ant Governorship, the judge of the Court of Appeals, and mayoralty of the city were in the balance, and yet the vote cast in
1894, in the district referred to, was smaller by more than
4,000 votes, Qr by more than twenty-five percent of the total
vote c;st, than that cast in 1893; while in view of the greater
importance of the issues involved, there should normally have
been a large increase in the number of votes polled, indicating
that in 1893 more than 4,000 fraudulent votes were cast and
counted in a single Assembly district of the city. It was due
to the presence of and the revelations before yorur committee
that similar frauds were not enacted at the late election. When
we consider, by comparison during the same years, of the votes
polled in the town of Gravesend, that the same startling
decrease is noticeable, the conclusion seems irresistible that the
same forces were at work in the two localities, producing
similar results.
It was conlusively shown that during each of the years 1891,
1892 and 1893, very many thousands of unlawful ballots were
cast and counted by the active co-operation and connivance of
the police, and it is to be regretted that sufficient time was not
at the disposal of your committee to enable it to subject.every
district in the city to a rigorous examination upon.t  lines of
this branch of inquiry, whereby a more accurate estie of the
effect of police interference might be reached. Sufficient, however, appears upon the record to show beyond peradventure that
owing to the practices above referred to during. the years
covered by the investigation, honest elections had no existence,
in fact, in the city of New York, and that, upon the contrary, a
huge conspiracy against the purity of the elective franchise was
connived at and participated in by the municipal police,
whereby the rights and privileges of the individual were
trampled ruthlessly under foot, and crime against the ballot
held high carnival.
It is a significant fact that police captains whose precincts
'were especially considered in this connection were appointed
by the president of the board of police, and one of the most con,
picaous leaders of Tammany Hall, at the instance of the organi4
8
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zation, as an organization, and that one of them, when informed
that watchers had been sent to the polls at the instance of local
reform associations, to aid in searing an honest vote and
count, called the officers of 'his command together, and
instructed them that if those silk stockings interfered they
should stand them on their heada
The evidence shows, moreover, that partisan bias did not
stop with captains, but that in -1892 the president of the police
board himself, just prior to the Presidential election, in defiance
of the superintendent of police, gave directions to the assembled
capfains which if carried into effect would have caused riot
and bloodshed at the polls, and would have precipitated
encounters between the police and the United States marshals
The commissioner denied this, but in such a vague manner
that in the view of the positive statements of the superintendent
on the subject, we are forced to accept the latter's statements as
true.
The evidence, taken as a whole, indicates that the department was permeated by the influence of Tammany Hall; that
district leaders influenced not only the appointment but the
assignment of officers; that forced contributions were levied
upon the members for the benefit of district organizations, and
that a situation had been reached under four years of a partisan
police board where the officer had been brought to understand that the only hope for promotion was in joining and contributing to Tammany Hall Associations, and seeking through
these channels the sure road to prmotion.
Thus we find police captains and inferior officers of so-called
Republican proclivities actually enrolling themselves as members in Democratic clubs, notably the Pequod Club, of which! a
police commiissioner was president  Thus we find Tammany
Hall influences predominating to such a degree and the wholesale joining of district associations and other politicali clubs so
prominent a feature and so demoralizing to the force, that Conmissioner Martin, the president of the police department, finally
asked the intervention of Richard Croker, a private citizen,
unconnected with the police department, but leader of Tam



419
many Hall, in order *6 secure through the influence of that
organization, a cessation of this abuse. No stronger illustration
is necessary to show how under the then exisin  conditions, a
political faction had impressed itself so strongly upon the police
force that its authority was more potent than that of the nominal
chiefs of the department.
Whileon this subject it is proper to refer to thetestimony of the
President of Liquors Dealers Association of this city, who admitted that when he desired a nomination as candidate for delegate
to the Constitutional Convention, he went to the same supreme
head of auhority, because, in his words, there was no other
place to go, and to the additional facts which appear in the
testimony, that in 1892, by a species of compact, the precise
terms of which were not elicited, the liquor interests)of the city
sought and received immediate relief from police oppression by
joining the powerful organization referred to.
The same private citizen, whose authority was so potent as
to accomplish all of this, was able by a word of command at once
to shut up all the pool rooms then in full operation and which,
according to the testimony up to that time, neither the whole
force of police, of deteotives, of superintendent, or of the commissione. themselves, could effectively close.
Taken as a whole, the record upon this point discloses the fact
that the police department, from the highest down to the lowest,
was thoroughly impregnated with the political influence of Tammany Hall, and that the suppression and repression of crime
depended, not so much upon the ability of the police to enforce
the law; but rather upon the will of that organization or faction
to have the law enforced.
The conclusion seems irresistible, that, under the circumtances isnch as now exist in the city of New York, it becomes
the paramount duty of the Legislature to remove as far as practicable the possibility of political influences securing a controlling power over the police foree. It is not a mere theory, but a
practical condition. It is true. that an aroused citizenship has
now control, at least to some extent, of the machinery of municipal government, but the unpalatable fact remains that those




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influences which created the conditions hereinbefore and here
inafter referred to, are still active and potent in the municipality, and that they outnumber any one other political organization. Were it otherwise, remedies might be suggested which
would fully meet the situation. As it is, however, the future
ascendancy of the same disorganizing and disintegrating forces
must be considered and a remedy suggested which shall neutralize'as far as practicable their future baleful effects
Second Branch of the Investigation.
Your committee began taking testimony on the second branch
of the investigation on the twentieth of May, and continued with
occasional interruptions until the twenty-ninth of December.
Prior to May twentieth, counsel having this branch under supervision had been engaged for almost two months in setting the
necessary machinery into motion for a comprehensive investigation into the whole subject-matter relating to this branch of the
inquiry, in organizing a corps of efficient detectives, and in examining communications, largely anonymous, which came to your
-committee and to their counsel, containing complaints and suggestions of clues.
As has been before stated, when your committee commenced
its labors on the second branch of the inquiry there was absolutely
nothing of a positive character in hand or at its disposal, showing or tending to show any overt act of corruption, or oppression
by members of the police force.
It is not intended by this statement to disparage the mass of
material which had been collected by the City Vigilance League.and Doctor Parkhurst On the contrary, the material thus collected was most valuable in furnishing that corroboration which
was necessary in view of the character of the testimony upon
which, from the nature of things, your committee was compelled
to rely.
The Parkhurst evidence consisted exclusively of acts of omission and neglect of duty, and reluctance on the part of the police
to perform their duty, even under the whip and spur of private




21


complaint, and of complaint by organizations, and demand by.
public opinion as expressed by the metropolitan newspapera
It is the story of months and years of struggle to compel the
police department to perform its duties, revealing in the strongest
light the extraordinary circumstancethat a private organization,
without special influence or power, was able to unearth, uncover
and fix the actual existence of unlawful resorts without number, scattered throughout the city, all of which, appareditly, had
escaped  the eye of the police and successfully defied their
resources for the detection of crime. It revealed that this private
organization was able to secure adequate evidence to conviet
keepers'of unlawful resorts, and actually secured their conviction
in spite of the claim by the police that houses of that unlawful
character were not running, and, if running, that evidence sufb
ficient for conviction was not obtainable. It disclosed the additional circumstance that in the securing of evidence against such
resorts and in the prosecution of keepers of disreputable houses
the police were not only found to stand in actual hostility to all
efforts made to suppress vice, but stood idly by and permitted
citizens engaged in performing duties which they should have
undertaken, to be mobbed and brutally assaulted upon
the streets.  The testimony of this kind, in fact, showed
throughout, an extraordinary disinclination on the part of the
police, so efficient in other respects, to display any desire or
activity in the suppression of certain descriptions of vice and
crime, a disinclination so strong that others attempting to per.
form that function found the police arrayed against them and
experienced greater embarrassment from this circumstance than
from any difficulty connected with the suppression of the vice
itself. It indicated the amazing condition that in most of the
precincts of the city, houses of ill-repute, gambling houses,
policy shops, pool rooms and unlawful resorts of a similar character were being openly conducted under the eyes of the police,
without attempt at concealment, so publicly, in fact, that the
names of the persons and the street numbers of the houses were
not only known throughout the community, but were published
in the daily prints, and yet they remained open and ostentatiously flourished,




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Application was made to police commissioners, to superintendent, to inspectors, to captains, giving the names of the persons
and the locations of the houses, and calling upon them to suppress the evil, and yet until the autumn of' 1892 substantially
nothing was accomplished. Complaints and applications, denunciations in the public prints, charges of extortion and corruption,
made through the medium of the newspapers and re-echoed by
public sentiment, all seemed to fall upon unwilling or deaf ears
in the police department. It was only after the City VigilanceW
League adtively intervened and secured the conviction of a number of the keepers of houses of ill-repute, and raid after raid
was made by them upon disreputable resorts and public sentiment ranged itself aggressively behind and supported the efforts
of that organization, and grand juries made sweeping presentments upon the subject, that the police were finally driven into a
semblance of activity.
This was the general character of the evidence which had
been collected prior to the commencement of your committee's
investigation. Its importance upon the general question cannot
be overestimated, because it furnished to your committee much
of the evidence necessary to reach a conclusion, but obviously
lacked one essential element, one which up to that time could not
be established by affirmative proof, but was, nevertheless,
strongly inferable from the facts so developed. The motive was
the missing link in the chain of evidence. It was surmised' that
the motive was a financial consideration moving between those
protected and their protectors, but there was absolutely no positive or direct proof upon that question. Your committee and its
counsel, therefore, bent their efforts mainly to secure proof tending to establish this necessary link, and in the course of time
evidence of a direct character bearing upon this question
became so plentiful that a very large amount of the abovementioned corroborative proof was necessarily laid aside
and remained unconsidered.  The sessions of your committee,
which were carried on until the very last day practicable,
were finally  discontinued  without an  opportunity  being




23
afforded to put upon the record any very considerable portion
of this testimony showing acts of omission.
It would seem clear, without argument that with a police
force so concededly efficient in the protection of life and property in all other respects, the fact cf such glaring omission of
duty in reference to the suppression of what may be called
"protected" vice and crime, presents a sufficiently strong and
convincing inference of a corrupt motive, one sufficient in itself
to indict the police department as a whole, not only of flagrant
and inexcusable omission of duty, but of a corrupt purpose as
well. It is inconceivable that a department, ranking with the
best in the world, with a detective bureau unsurpassed by any,
with superior officers conceded to be the inferiors of none in
the enforcement of law and order and the protection of life and
property in all other respects, should have been so phenominally inefficient in the respects here considered, except for a
corrupt purpose. Just so long, however, as the actual existence of the fact of corruption remained unproven by direct and
positive evidence, just so long the indisputable efficiency of the
police in other respects enabled the department to defy criticism and thus perpetuate a condition of affairs, the disclosure
of which by direct evidence, has caused a sensation throughout
the world.
It is proper in this connection, to direct the attention of this
body to the ir herent difficulties attending the collection and
presentation of evidence upon this line of inquiry. Having
mainly to do with people of vicious tendencies, engaged in
vicious pursuits, the embarrassments in the way of securing
testfinony of this kind were obvious The power of the police
department was incredibly great at the time your committee
commenced its labors. Men of social rank and position would
willingly assist your committee, always, however, on condition
that their names should not be disclosed, for fear of the effect
of such a disclosure upon their material conditions. This situation was characteristic. A. consuming desire to put an end to
an outrageous servitude on the one hand, and a dread lest
failure might result in a still more galling thraldom on the




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other! It seemed, in fact, as though every interest, every occum
pation, almost every citizen, was dominated by an all-controlIing and overshadowing dread of the police department If this
was true with reference to legitimate business and wealth and
station in metropolitan life, how much stronger necessarily was
that eondition of fear and servitude with reference to those in
the humbler walks of life, those who shared the protection of
neither wealth nor station, and more especially those who came
in daily contact with the police force of the city, under its surveilance, conducting unlawful avocations, or engaged in the
commission of licensed crime?  To obtain and hold the testimony of such people, naturally the only persons who could
testify intelligently upon the vital question, was the problem
to solve which the labors of your committee and counsel were
mainly directed. There was only one method available, and
that was to impress upon the minds of those who had suffered
from the extortions, exactions and terrorism of the police, the
conviction that the reign of terror had come to an end and
that the authority of your committee, representing this body,
was superior to that of the police of the city.
Notwithstanding the many defects in the scope of the power
and authority which, under the law and resolutions of your body,
were conferred upon your committee, the co-operation of the
local authorities and of the public press hereinbefore referred to,
made it possible for your committee to assert and maintain a
position of strength in the community which made the result
aforesaid sought to be accomplished attainable.
In thus establishing a position which would more than offset
the power and authority of the police in that city, your committee was at times compelled to depart from the beaten track
and precedent of legislative investigations.
In the interest of justice it was at times compelled to admit
evidence which would be excluded on the trial of causes before
the legal tribunals of this State. It was at times compelled to
subject witnesses to most severe and inquisitorial interrogatories.
It was at times compelled to appeal to the courts, the district
attorney's office, and even the grand jury to aid it in establishing




25
conditions which by any other method would have defied dieclosure. But it is to be considered in this connection, that
with few exceptions, every witness who was examined was either
a reluctant or a positively hostile witness, and that in order to
carry out the instructions of this body, it was absolutely necessary for your committee to neutralize the terrorism and despotism of the police over the community at large, and especially
over most of the witnesses examined, and in order to accomplish
this, your committee was constrained to pursue the inquiry with
relentless severity.
It must be difficult for those unacquainted with metropolitan
conditions, to realize the potent influence exercised by the police
until the disclosures before your committee destroyed the
bondage.
Those in the humbler walks of life were subjected to appalling
outrages which to some extent continued, even to the end of the
investigation. They were abused, clubbed and imprisoned, and
even convicted of crime on false testimony by policemen and
their accomplices. Men of busin'ess were harassed and annoyed in
their affairs, so that they too, were compelled to bend their necks
to the police yoke, in order that they might shar that so-called
protection which seemed indispensable to' the profitable conduct of their affairs. People of all degrees seemed to feel that
to antagonize the police was to call down upon themselves the
swift judgment and persecution of an invulnerable force, strong
in itself, banded together by self-interest and the coanmunity of
unlawful gain, and so thoroughly entrenched in the municipal
government as to defy ordinary assault. Strong men hesitated
when required to give evidence of their oppression, and whispered their stories; tricks, subterfuges and schemes of all kinds
were resorted to to withhold from this committee and its counsel
the fact that they had knowledge of acts of corruption or oppression by the police. The uniform belief was that if they spoke
against the police, or if the police discovered that they had been
instrnuental in aiding your committee, or had given information, ehdn business would be mined, they would be hounded
from the city and their lives, even, jeopardized.
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The bulk of tle Important information which came to your
committee, was received throughl anonymous tetties,, giving
clues which resulted in obtaining witnesses who in one way or
another were compelled to testify. Every particle of evidence
that was secured during the earlier stages of the investigation
was wrung from witnesses as the result of the laborious and
fearless efforts of your committee's counsel, and of the position
which your committee had established in the community with
the co-operation of the agencies hereinbefore referred to. After
the breach was made, and overt acts of corruption had been
satisfactorily proven, the fear of the oppressed gradually abated,
and finally evidence poured in upon your committee in such
volume that only a portion of it could be sifted and finally presented in the shape of testimony.
In the course of the inquiry, a man ruBshed into the session
of your committee, fresh from an assault made upon him by a
notorious politician and two policemen, and with fear depicted
apon his countenance, threw himself upon the mercy of the committee and asked its protection, insisting that he knew of no
court and of no place where he could in safety go and obtain
protection from his persecutors. This condition of fear was not
confined to law-abiding citizens, but extended to those partners
of the police engaged in illegal business under their protection,
for they realized that "squealing" as they termed it, would be
punished more severely than failure to pay monthly dues.
Your committee has been zealous in protecting witnesses who
have testified before it, but with all its zeal and the continuous
co-operation of the agencies hereinbefore referred to, many of
its witnesses were persecuted; some of them were arrested on
trumped up charges after they had given their testimony, and
others were assaulted upon the public highways. In all cases
were such witnesses complained to your committee, steps were
taken for their release and their protection, and we believe that
every one so annoyed has been finally protected. It has often
taxed the resources of your committee and the time of counsel
to the utmost to perform this work while engaged in the development of the case itself.- 




While it was impossible for your committee to spend much
time in considering police courts, enough is shown upon the
record to justify the conclusion that a very important reason
why the police have been able to carry on and successfully perpetrate their reprehensible practices, is that at least some of the
police justices have apparently worked in sympathy and/collusion
with them.                    ' 
The poor, ignorant foreigner residing on the great east side
of the city has been especially subjected to a brutal and infamous
rule by the police, in conjunction with the administration of the
local inferior crinmial courts, so that it is beyond a doubt that
innocent people who have refused to yield to criminal extortion,
have been cabbed and harassed and confined in jail, and the
extremes of oppression have been applied to them in the separation of parent and child, the blasting of reputation and consignment of innocent persons to a convict's cell.
The co-ordination of all the departments of city government,
under the sway of the dominant Democratic faction in that city,
has produced a harmony of action operating so as to render it
impossible for oppressed citizens, particularly those in the humbler walks of life, the poor and needy, to obtain redress or relief
from the oppression or the tyranny of the police. Their path to
justice was completely blocked. It is not credible that the abuses
shown to exist have been the creation of but a short
time   It is clear from   the evidence that abuses have
existed for many years back; that they have been constantly increasing through the years, but that they did not reach
their full and perfect development until Tammany Hall obtained
absolute control of the city government, and under that control
the practices which have been shown conclusively before your
committee, were brought into a well regulated and comprehensive system, conducted apparently upon business principles
While your committee has not had the necessary time to devote
to an examination into the excise department, the department
of charities and corrections and the police courts of the city, it
is satisfied from the evidence upon its record that abuses exist




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In fhose departments, if not as flagrant as those shown to exist
in the police department, at least sufficiently important to require
drastic measures upon the part of the local auhtorities or the
Legislature of this State.
Another great impediment to the work of your committee was
the effort of those implicated and their allies to thwart the investigation. The counsel and detectives of your committee were
sorrounded by spies, and witnesses who had been located were
frightened into silence, or quieted by bribes, and in some cases
removed from the jurisdiction of your committee.
Large numbers of persons whose testimony involved financial
dealings with the police fled to other States, and remained away
during our sessions. It was shown that a colony of the keepers
of disreputable resorts had gone to the city of Chicago, in order
to evade the subpoena of your committee. A notable instance
was that of Mrs. Herreman, who had kept a number of houses of
ill-repute in the fifteenth precinct, under the administration of
four captains, and who had paid continuously for protection to
the extent of $30,000 or more. She was subpoenaed, and apparently willing to testify, and when the day was set she was provided with a considerable sum of money, placed under an escort,
and sent, first to Canada, and then to Chicago, where she was
located by a detective in the employ of your committee. An
indictment was secured for contempt in failing to obey your committee's subpoena, and she was finally induced to return to New
York, but upon her arrival in Jersey City, when under the care
of the deputy sergeant-at-arms of this Senate, attempts were
made to take her from the custody of our officers, resulting finally
in the arrest of all. But the magistrate, Judge Potts, and Chief
of Police Murphy refused to lend their aid in thwarting the ends
of justice, and the witness was detained to await a requisition
from this State, resulting finally in her voluntary subjection to
the jurisdiction of your committee, and in revelations of extortion and corruption which implicated many of the higher police
officials of the city.
In conclusion, your committee expresses the conviction that
the testimony  taken conclusively establishes an indictment




29


against the police department of the city of New York as a
whole    It establishes the necessity for a raical and basic
reorganization by the elimination of those elements whch may be
found to be untrustworthy, inefficient and corrupt. The conclusion which has impressed itself upon your committee, however, is
that the disorganizing elements at work in-the police department
are such that operate from the higher officials down, rather than
from the patrolmen up.
It is generally conceded that the municipal police are zealous
and unsurpassed in efficiency and desire to protect life and property upon the highways of that city.
It is a significant fact that but little corruption has been traced
into the pockets of the ordinary patrolman, and that such sins
as may be laid at his door largely consist in abuse of physical
force, infringement upon the rights and privileges of private
citizens,. and omission to disclose the criminal conduct of his
superiors It is probable and even certain from the testimony,
that a large number of patrolmen have paid sums averaging $300
for appointment. It is not strange that starting in this way, some
of them have imitated the examples of their superiors and should
have become victims to a most pernicious and criminal practice.
But it would be manifestly unfair, because of the proof of isolated
cases to arraign all the force under one general charge. On
the contrary, your committee believes that a very large proportion
of the patrolmen of the city, and a considerable number of
their superiors are good officers and true, reliable and incorruptible men, whose conduct in guarding their honor, despite
the example set by their superiors and their associates, marks
them as men to be especially commended, and in any reorganization of the force to be particularly honored by retention and
promotion, and we recommend that in any plan of reorganization which may be adopted, special stress should be laid upon
this, because, in this way more than in any other, will the
esprit de corps and the future efficiency of the force be subserved.
9ome of the abuses which have been shown to preval will
now be specifically referred to.




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Brutality.
It was proven by a stream of witnesses who poured contln
tously into the sessions of the committee, that many of the
members of the force, and even superior officers, have abused
the resources of physical power which have been provided for
them and their use only in cases of necessity in the making of
arrests and the restraint of disorder, to gratify personal spite
and brutal instincts, and to reduce their victims to a condition
of servility. This condition has grown to such an extent that
even in the eyes of our foreign-born residents our institutions
have been degraded, and those who have fled from oppression
abroad have come here to be doubly oppressed in a professedly,
free and liberal country. The harm thus done by engendering
bitterness and hatred in the minds of multitudes of those
people who look upon the police as the highest expression of
governmental power, and their consequent inducement to phases
of radicalism, thus forced upon them, cannot be estimated.
An impressive spectacle was presented to us one day in the
presence of about 100 patrolmen in uniform, who during the
period of three preceding years, had been convicted by the
police commissioners of unprovoked and unwarranted assaults
on citizens, amounting to crimes of assault in the second and
third degree.  Some of them  had been convicted of such
assaults as many as two or three times, and yet had never been
suspended from duty. Some of these outrages had been perpetrated upon women and children. Occasionally the victims
had received permanent injuries and disfigurements.
In the period from January 1, 1891, to May 1, 1894, 108
policemen had been convicted of offenses amounting to crimes,
of which forVie:yght were felonies. In four of these cases
sentence w'as dismissal. In nine fines of thirty days pay. In
thirteen fines of from ten to fifteen days pay, and in all other
cases, fines of from two to ten days pay.
The charges which were adjudged to be true, showed twelve
cases of criminal neglect of duty; twenty of oppression; one each
of indecent exposure, burglary and attempt at rape; fifty-six
of assault in the third degree, and forty-five of assault in the




81


second degree.  n one case the tesstimony which tThe commis
sioners accepted as true revealed a crime against nature, and
the officer was convicted of assault, but was only fined three
days pay, and afterwards was permitted to resign  The police
commissioners themselves testified that they had never moved in
the dirretion of a further prosecution of these crimes, and it
appears that very few   criinal  prosecutions have occurred
prior to the work of your committee.
It appears, therefore, that the police formed a separate and
highly privileged class, armed with the authority and the
machinery for oppression and punishment, but practically free
themselves from the operation of the criminal law.
It is a significant fact that in the administration of their
judicial functions, the police officials appear to consider the
violation of their rules and regulations as a graver offense than
the commission of crime. The dozen or more sentences of dismissal each year are generally for violations of rules, or for
drunkenness. Only one dismissal was ordered in three years for
the clubbing of a private citizen. This i's the situation, although
the accused officers were found guilty in most cases
Besides this exhibit of convicted clubbers, still wearing the
uniform of the force, there was a stream of victims of police
brutality who testified before your committee. The eye of one
man, punched out by a patrolman's club, hung on his cheek.
Others were brought before the committee, fresh from their
punishment covered with blood and bruises, and in some cases
battered out of recognition. Witnesses testified to severe
assaults upon them while under arrest in the station- houses,
and one witness, a journalist of established reputation, testifled that he had been clubbed by an inspector without cause,
and that a captain, now an inspector without reason or provocation assaulted him with brass knuckles while he was a prisoner
in the station-house, and severely injured him.
This line of testimony might have been endlesiy pursued by
our committee, but co ming as it did from the mouths of so
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rounded them, in many cases unwillingly and with evident
fear, was sufficient to carry conviction with it and fasten a
stigma on the department, and especially on those who, having
its discipline in their control, have managed it with utter disregard of the plain constitutional rights of the people.
We emphasize this finding of brutality because it affects every
citizen, whatever his condition, because it shows an invasion of
constitutional liberty by one of the departments of government,
whose supreme duty it is to enforce the law, and because it
establishes a condition of affairs gravely imperilling the safety
and the welfare of the people in their daily avocations and the
pursuit of happiness.
The patrolman is not alone responsible for this situation. It
is clear from the testimony that superior officers have furnished the example. It may well be asked, what conception of
the rights of the private citizen is conveyed to the ordinary
patrolman when those who sit in judgment on his acts consider
an unprovoked assault upon a private citizen as fully vindicated
by the imposition of a fine of a few days' pay.
Blackmail.
The consideration of this subject occupied by far the greater
part of the time. The nature of the offense is such as to render
its proof by direct testimony a matter of great difficulty. The
assumed bad character of the person paying blackmail, the
difficulty of obtaining admissions, and then of substantiating
such statements by corroborative evidence were elements of
peculiar embarrassment  It is due largely to these circumstances that the police for many years have been able to ply
this traffic with substantial impunity, and with a reckless disregard of decency, based largely upon the assumption that the
only witnesses against them would receive no credence from
either court or public.
Disorderly Houses.'
Thb first tangible evidence of the payment of blackmail by a
keeper of a disorderly house was given by Charles Prien, and
his testimony was promptly followed by several others, incluid




88


fIg   nkugusta thurow, whise convincing story subsequently
caused the trial by the police commissioners and the dismissal
of several officers.
The circumstances attendhig the appearance of these permons
before the committee, their evident dread of the consequences
of exposure, their manner of testifying, coupled with the fact
that their houses had remained open, and that they had been
unmolested by the police for a long period of time, convinced
your committee of the truthfulness of their statements. Particularly convincing was the testimony of more than one witness
upon this question, who, after vainly endeavoring to shield the
police from exposure, had finally broken under severe crossrexamination, and then revealed the true state of affairs, sup
ported in some instances by entries of payments (made simultaneously with the transaction) in books of account Testimony of
this character, at first so difficult to procure, became finally so
large in volume that a very considerable part of it was omitted
from the record because the subsequent confessions of implicated
ward men, sergeants and captains rendered further examination
into this branch of the case unjnecessary. The testimony upon
this subject, taken as a whole, establishes conclusively the fact
that this variety of vice was regularly and systematically lioensed
by the police of the city. The system had reached such a perfection in detail that the inmates of the several houses were numbered and classified and a ratable charge placed upon each
proprietor in proportion to the number of inmates, or in cases
of houses of assignation the number of rooms occupied and the
prices charged, reduced to a monthly rate, which was collected
within a few days of the first of each month during the year.
This was true apparently with reference to all disorderly houses,
except in the case of a few specially favored ones. The prices
ran from $25 to $50 monthly, depending apon the considerations
aforesaid, besides fixed sums for the opening of new houses or
the resumption of "business" in old or temporarily abandoned
houses, and for "initiation fees" designed as an additional gratuity to captains upon their transfer into new precicts, et o
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established fee for opening and initiation appears to have been
$500.
Thus it appears that transfers of captains, ostensibly made
for the purpose of reform and of enforcing the discontinuance of
the practice, the prevalence of which seems to have been generally understood, resulted only in the extortion from these criminal places of additional blaclkmail.
Your committee was particularly fortunate because of the condition in which these unfortunate people found themselves at
the time of the investigation into this branch
The evidence shows clearly that raids made by detectives of
the City Vigilance League, and the arrests caused by them, and
an aroused public sentiment, had compelled the police authorities to some degree of activity. The demands of blackmailing
officials had increased until these people found that all of their
gains were being wrested from them in the form of extortion.
They had been compelled, too, during the autumn of 1893, to
close at tims, had been then permitted to reopen, as they testified, "on the quiet," had become impoverished by systematic
exacta s, and when finally your committee was appointed the
protection promised them had been withdrawn temporarily, and
their houses closed under the promise that as soon as your cormittee had performed its labors they would be permitted to
reopen. In the meanwhile their resources failed them, and as
time went on they found themselves confronted by conditions that
rendered a reopening of their houses impracticable.
It was this condition which probably more than any other
fact was instrumental in securing their testimony before your
committee.
As an evidence of the perfect system to which this traffic has
been reduced, your committee refers to that part of the testimony
which shows that in more than one instance the police officials
refused to allow  keepers of disorderly houses to d/scontinue their business, threatening them with persecution if they
attempted so to do, and substantially expounding the proposition
that they were there for the purpose of making money to share




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with the police. As~ an evidence of thi ecxtaordinary condttDon
to whioh this system had given rise, it is proper to call your attention to the fact that in a number of cases women, who, as keepers
of disorderly houses, had aid thousands of dollars for police protection, had become reduced to the verge of starvation, whlle
those who had exacted blackmail from them were living in
luxury in houses that had been furnished out of the earnings of
these women, or they were wearing ornaments of jewelry pur
chased by them; and even the furniture of their houses had been
paid for by those whom they had protected in the commission of
crime.
The evidence establishes, furtfienrmore, that not only the pro
prietors of disorderly houses paid for their illegal privileges, but
the outcasts of society paid patrolmen on post for permissioLnto
solicit on the public highways, dividing their gains with them,
and, often, as appears by proof, when brought before the police
magistrates and committed to the penitentiary for disorderly
conduct in default of bail, they compounded their sentence, and
secured bail by paying $10 or $15 to the clerk of the court, or
his agents, and were then released again to ply their calling and
to become victimized as before.
One of these witnesses had been arrested in this manner mre
than one hundred times in the course of one year, and had on
each occasion secured release by these means. Her testimony,
and that of others of the same class, strongly indicated that they
were impressed with the conviction that there was nothing
unusual in this mode of treatment; and they referred to the
officers-one of them a captain-in terms that implied rather
affection than nesentment
The evidence, furthermore, shows, that in some of the houses
of the character described, visitors were systematically robbed,
and when they made complaint at the station-house the man
detailed to examine into the charge failed to arrest the perpetrator, and frightened the victim off by threats, and then returned
and received his compensation, an equal division of the plunder
between the thief and the of!ice.                /


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The testimony taen as a whole, conclustvely establishes that
the social evil was, and probably still is, fostered and protected
by the police of the city, even to the extent of inducing its votaries
to continue their illegal pmaetifces, maintaintig substanially a
partnership with them in the traffic, absorbing the largest part of
the resulting profit
A circumstance which is especially significant is that a large
number of witnesses testified that the control of the police over
their traffic was so complete that without protection they
would not have attempted to ply their trade, and that it
required only the word of the captain, transmitted to them
through his wardman, to close their houses immediat ey.
This would probably be a necessary deduction from the facts
already stated, but it is furthermore corroborated by the testimony at least one police captain, who maintained that he
was able to close all the disreputable houses in his precinct
within three months, and that any other captain might readily
do the same.-?Gambling:
The various forms of gambling testified to before your coma
mittee were pool-rooms, policy shops, and what is ordinarily
understood as gambling.
The evidence is conclusive that with reference to this class
of vice the police occupied substantially the same position as
they did with respect to disorderly houses
The policy business seems to have been conducted on a vast
scale and under well understood geographical limitations, each
subdivision being assigned to certain favored individuals known
as "policy kings," who backed with capital and ran the shops
In the particular districts assigned to them.
It was proven even that while the committee was actually
in session more than 600 policy shops were in active operation
in the city, running openly, and from day to day policy slips
were secured in some shops in different portions of the city by
detectives in the employ of your committee.
Qualified witnesses swore that the general average of open
shops was about 1,000. The testimony disclosed the remarkable




87
fact that not only were these violators of the law protected by
the police in consideration of a fixed sum of $15 a month per
shop, but that the area of operation of each "king" was so
clearly understood and carefully guarded, that any intruder
Xwould be certified to the police, and would either be compelled
to refrain from  competition with a licensed "policy king," or
else would be arrested and condign punishment would be
visited upon him,
It seems clear from the evidence that this division of territory was largely for the benefit of the police, insuring a more
rapid and easier collection of the tribute to be paid, the "policy
king" to whom a particular district had been assigned paying
in bulk at the rate of $15 per shop for all the shops running in.
such district or districts.
Pool-rooms flourished all over the city in the same way.
Large sums were extorted from their proprietors by the police,
and they were permitted to remain unmolested, openly and pullicly running, until a private citizen, Richard Oroker, after a
conference with a police commissioner, enforced their cessation
practically in a single day. This is one of the most remarkable
circumstances testified to before your committee.
A police commissioner, in office at the time of the closing of
these pool-rooms, testified that his attention had been directed
to the open and notorious manner in which pool-rooms were
being run, admitted that it was generally understood and rumnored
that they were so am under police protection for financial considerations, and yet nothing was done or attempted to be done
until the private citizen aforesaid commanded that they be
closed; and they were closed, and closed without criminal prosecution.
It appeared subsequently in evidence that these pool-roomlq,
while running, had been assessed and had paid for police protection as high as $300 a month.
- Green Goods.
Green goods swindlers and vitims added their story of police
blackmail and protection. The same method of subdividing
the city into districts seems to have been adopted with reference




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A (a cless o~f crime  Fri~omn;their evidence anld abumdanf corbrobwablo, it appears cone usively that a heavy traffic of this
2klil las beenh sbtenatically  carried on by these swindlers, who,
in ezhage  for procion,   bharred a large part of their ill-gotten
gans with the police. Not only did they pay regular monthly
cunv s for protection, but where victims " squealed" the police,
eitber ward or headquater detectives, demanded one-half of
ithe pkrmder.
It 'appears that this class of crime had its ramifications ext-mdofi uver the whole country; that the perpetrators called to their!alid not only the protection of the police, but also -the assistance
of epnpoyes in post and telegrapai offies; and it appears very
ckarly that, except for the concurrence of -all three, th!s kind of
dm~nal ftraffic could not exist in its present form.
The attitude of the police to this class of vice seems to have
lbeen substantially the same as that with respect to policy shops,
The nature of the busines, as demonstrated before the cornmniltee, makes it impowible that a vigilant policeman could
~reniain   in ~gnorance of its operationis, and in fact, the principal
operators are well known to the public.
The evidence indimcted that the first step in the initiation of
b-uslnw   of this character was.to establish relations with the
cczptain of the precinct in which the work was carried on;
aid it was shown that one captain in particular, whose alleged.'dmneas prevented his appearance before your comnnittle In the,last siages of -the inquiry (and it may be added that there were
many others similarly situated) was so agreeable to the green
Vxods operators that they followed him in his various transfers
[frm precinct to precinct.
-Your committee calls special attention to this class of pro-ected lawlessness, for the reason that it is a grave crime, invola-wng a high degree of moral turpitude, and it appears not only
tfat it reeidved protection from the police, but that moreover,wicetims who made complaint were treated by the police with
rv-ant courtesy, or in the words of a number of the wituesses,
the police "put a scare into them," and then proceeded to divide




89


It appears, moreover, tiat men notoriously engaged in te
swindling or confidence business had their heo4quarters in the
city, itown to the police, where they might be ordinarily
found, and that those who were receiving protection plied their
trade unmolested, while others, who had not been fortunate
enough to establish relations with the police, or those who
intruded upon districts not assigned to themn would be warne
off, and in case of failure to obey, would be summarily dealt
with.
Violation of the Excise Laws.
The position of those who violate the provisions of fe
excise law is somewhat peculiar. It appears that until sanme
time in 1892 they paid a regular stipend to the police, either
for protection in the violation of the law, or for immunityfro
police interference in respect to the conduct of their bsmiess
on the border line between legitimate and illegitimate practice.
It appears that these contributions were considered a part
of the ordinary and regular expenses of the business. In oe
case the account books of a dealer were produced which costained monthly entries of the payment of $20 to the precinct
detectives as a part of the business expenses, and his testio&a
showed that he paid that sum to the police monthly "becamse
it was always done," and was " the established custom"
In another case, a member of the Bohemian Liquor Dealer
Association testified that they gave and made contributions
from their treasury for the captain of the precinct, whom they
refer to in their minutes as the "Pantata," and whose protection in doing an illicit business they thus obtained. Whea
questioned as to the reasons for forming the association they
admitted that it had been done at the instance of the precinct
detective, in order to simplify the collection of the tribute ta
be paid. The testimony abounds with instances of this kind of
exactions, forced in more recent times, especially from the poor
and weak.                                               i
As hereinbefore referred to, some time in 1892, a change was
made in the then existing conditions, and orders were issed
putting substantially an end to this class of blackmail through




40


the Instrumentality of the liquor deales association, who entered
into an alliance with the dominant faction, and upon terms which
your commiftee could not discover, obtained substantial immui
nity for members of the association, who, as testified to by the
president, thereafter violated and were now violating the lamw
practically without interference by the municipal authorities.
Detectives, Pawnbrokers and Thieves.
It has been conclusively shown that an understanding existed
between headquarters' detectives, pawnbrokers and thieves, byi
which stolen property may be promptly recovered by the owners
on condition that he repay the pawnbroker the amount advancedl
on the stolen property. In every such case, which appears in evidence, the detective seems to have acted rather in the interest oi
securing the pawnbroker's advances than of securing the absolute
return of the stolen property.  The only reasonable growund
assigned were those of convenience and expeditious return of)
the property. But it must be clear that this custom offers af
premium for theft, and a substantial inducement to pawnbrok4
ers to make stolen property available by loaning or advancing,
substantial sums upon it
Undej the general powers of visitation and inspection whichl
the police possess in reference to pawnbrokers establishments,
there is no reason for the prevalence of this custom, and proper
activity, turned into the right channels, making the disposition of
stolen property less easy would probably largely reduce the
crime.
In almost every instance it also appears that the detectives
acting between the owner and the pawnbroker, receives substan4
tial gratuities from the owner of the property for the work done
in his official capacity.  In some cases these gratuities were
received without demand. Others were the result of demand on
the part of detectives  In very many cases, the amount of the
pawnbrokers' advances added to the gratuities paid to the detect,
ives, equalled, and, in some cases, exceeded the value of the)
article recovered 
The reasonable conclusion deducible from the evidence, estab
lishes the prevalence of the custom that in order to secure thel




refurn of stolen properties, a donation or reward must be paidto the headquarters' detective.
This custom  is in direct conflict with rule number 142 of
the department, which provides that the police shall not
receive -rewards, presents or testimonials, except for services both
meritorious and extraordinary, and then only by resolution of
the board of police; and that such reward must be deposited
with the treasurer, who shall deduct twenty or twenty-five per
cent., according to the amount of the reward, for the benefit of
the police pension fund.
The total amount paid into the police pension fand under this
rule was only $438.25 for the five years ending with 1894;.and
the amount of authorized rewards for those five years was, therefore, not more than $2,200 for the entire force; showing plainly
that this rule had been flagrantly and openly violated during
all that time.
The cUstom referred to is not only n conlicet witi the salutory
rule aforesaid, but amounts to an extortion, because it is contemplated by law that public officers shall render their best services for the salaries thay receive and have no right to demand
or receive compensation beyond tt                 I, Especially is this the case with the police force of the city of
New York1 which is concededly the best paid force in the worl
Abortionists.
A very revolting revelation was that which showed that pro.
fessional abortionists were permitted to ply their awful trade,
submitg to be plucked by the police from time to time.
One notorious "doctor" was bled to the amount of $2,825 in
sLK weeks, and his case implicated headquarters' detectives, a
sergeant in coinmand of a police squad and a police justice.
Other Crimes.
It was lmpossible for your committee to cover every phase of
crime receiving protection from the police, but enough appears
upon the record to indicate that other crimes than those dfsclosed contributed to the fund of corruption
6




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One wlfness, a business man of apparently good reputation,
testified that he and his father were arrested on the charge of
murder, and that the officer who had the case in hand offered to
save his father for $500, and on the demand being rejected actually aided in attempting to secure his conviction.
The familiarity of the police with some of the known criminals
is explained by them on the theory that their acquaintance is
maintained for detective purposes, and it may well be said that
the criminal class performs a large part of the detective work of
the force, and seems, in this sense, to constitute an auxiliary
departmet.
Legitimate Business
But the evidence of blackmail and extortion does not rest
alone on the evidence of criminals or persons accused of the
commission of crime. It has been abundantly proven that bootblacks, push-cart and fruit venders, as well as keepers of soda
water stands, corner grocerymen, sailmakers with flag-poles
extending a few feet beyond the place which they occupy, boxmakers, provision dealers, wholesale drygoods merchants and
builders, who are compelled at times to use the sidewalk and
street, steamboat and steamship companies, who require police
service on their docks, those who give public exhibitions, and in
fact all persons, and all classes of persons whose business is subject to the observation of the police, or who may be reported as
violating ordinances, or who may require the aid of the police,
all have to contribute in substantial sums to the vast amounts
which flow into the station-houses, and which, after leaving.
something of the nature of a deposit, then flow on higher.
This tide is not supplied alone by private citizens, but members of the police force pay for choice posts and positions, and the
stream has been traced to the captains and to the inspectors of
districts; the commerce of the port even is taxed when the func.
tions of the police department touch it, so that shippers are
compelled to submit to exactions in the city of New York that
they do not meet with in any other port
These exactions are not sporadic or Isolated or unusual.
They seem to be the habit and custom. It is claimed by the




43


pollee that these exact!ans are gratuities, chargeable to the
citizens who thus have stimulated the habit, and have even
tfmpted poor policemen to err in receiving unlawful wage.
Be this as it may, the proof before your committee shows that
the hand of the policeman, the precinct detective and the captain is not extended to the citizen in humble supplication or
unwilling compliance, but rather that it is thrust at him with
threats, and that non-compliance is often visited by condign
punishment, so that business men appreciating the difficulty
of obtaining justice, fearful of petty annoyances and embarrassments, submit rather to extortion than pursue a systematic
resistance which they feel might result in greater injury.
This custom has spread so as to include excise officials, as
appears by the evidence adduced before your committee, and
may for convenience be designated "constructive extortionm"
Oppression.
Oppression of the lowly and unfortunate, the coinage of
money out of the miseries of life is one of the noteworthy abuses
into which the department has fallen. Policemen and prisonkeepers stand in with disreputable men and take advantage of
their power over prisoners and their helplessness, to force upon
them unworthy and unprincipled men who extort fees and
divide them with their official allies.
The evidence of many witnesses shows the existence of a
powerful conspiracy in the neighborhood of Essex Market police
court, headed by politicians, including criminals, professional
bondsmen, professional thieves, police and others who lay' plots
against the unwary, and lead them into habits of law-breaking,
or surround them with a net work of false evidence, and then
demand money as the price of salvation, and if they do not
receive it, drag their victims into court and prison, and often to
a ccivict's cell. Men whose poverty has prevented them and
who have repudiated compliance with their demands, yielded
when torn away from wife and children, and have borrowed from
friends and pawned their personal effets to raise the required
moneys, and have then been released. One man who could not




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raise the required amonit of money was advised to pawn his
wife. In another case a husband and father being illegally confined, pending extortionate demands, his little child passed the
night in the street near the station-house and refused to go while
his father lay in jail. In another case Mrs. Urchittel, a humble
Russian Jewess, ignorant of our tongue, an honest and impoverished widow with three small children whom she was striving
to support, was falsely accused by a precinct detective of keeping a disorderly house in the back room of her little store where
she and her little children slept, and he demanded a sum. of
money which she could not pay, whereupon he took her
from her home, dragged her through the streets until 3 o'clock
in the morning, pulled down and searched her stockings for
money, until she in despair produced all that she had saved for
her month's rent  This being insufficient, he gave her a short
time to obtain the balance and she tried to sell her store, but
failed, and then he arrested her again, lodged a false and
infamous charge against her, fastened it upon her by the testimony of miserable tools whom he had employed for the purpose,
and secured her conviction. Her children passed into the hands
of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. Her
fine was paid by selling her store, and she was released, only to
fall into a severe and lingering illness  When she recovered,
her home was gone, her children were gone, and she was
penniless.
For more than a year before your committee met she had ben
vainly endeavoring to obtain her children  She was brought
before your committee and the facts in the case and the guilt
of the precinct detectives were fully established. Her children
were voluntarily surrendered to her, and she was at last
cleared of the outrageous charge under which she had so long
nBuffered.
We refer to this case at length, because it attracted the attention and sympathies of the whole city, and gave to many others
the courage to recite their wrongs  It will serve no good purpose to enlarge upon this subject   Many cases of similar
oppression are fonna in the record.




45 


We direct special attention to this class of cases, because touching, as it does, those who, by force of birth or condition, are
unable to protect themselves, it becomes the paramount duty of
the leislature, in the reorganization of the police force, to pro
vide for one so thorough and fundamental as to permit of thesuimmary dismissal of all such officers who may be shown to have
been connected with practices of the kind referred to.
Confessions of Officers.
If any doubt remains as to the conclusiveness of the evidence
upon the various matters hereinbefore set forth, the confessions
made in the last stages of the investigation finally dissipated
them.
The confessions of Wardman Shalvey, of Sergeant Taylor, anA
of Captain Schmidtberger, amply corroborated the testimony,
theretofore taken, and removed the one uncertainty which
clouded the testimony given by keepers of disorderly houses
The remarkable fact appeared in evidence by many witnesses,
that notwithstanding the payment of large sums for protection,
the houses of the persons so paying, had, nevertheless, been
"pulled" by captains to whom and to whose ward detectives
the alleged protection money had been regularly paid.
This apparent contradiction was explained by Captain Schmidtberger, who testified that the agreement between the captains
and keepers of disorderly houses, or other vicious or criminal
resorts, was, that they should receive protection only in case their
houses were run in a quiet and unobtrusive manner, and in case
no public complaints were made against them; that in default of 
these conditions they would be just as liable to police interference
as though no protection money had been paid.
This disposed of the one apparent contradiction which remained
to be reconciled.
The confessions summarized show the existence throughout
the city of a system so well regulated and understood that upon
the assignment of a new captain no conversation was necessary
to instruct the precinct detectives or wardmen as to their line of
conduct.  Without a word they collected the illicit revenue,






s~mliyln teIr d1uges as mnnch as they couald, either b~y granting
monopolies of a special kind of crime to individuals or imposing
'iicertain individuals who had knowledge of a particular
class of crine, the obligation of collecting for them, thus collectlug monthly from all licensed vice and crime, and paying over
their collections to -the captain, deducting for their services
twenty, per cent from the total. Or, rather, at first, paying the
whole to the captain, and receiving twenty per cent. back from
bun, and thereafter making the deductions themselves   The
captain, on his side, visited the inspector and paid over to himi a
substantial proportion of the amount collected.
It appears, in fact,' that this was the primary and main
function of the precinct detective or wardman, and now that
-lue confessions have been made, it appears that this was so well
understood throughout the department that the wardman was
called the captain's "1collector."
A remarkable fact is, that notwithstand-ing the developments
before your committee, this practice continued to exist until the
office of waxdman was abolished by resolution of the board of
police, and exactions of the kind considered were made and paid,
althoruglh in rapidly dimnishing amonomts, as late as October of
laot year.
Just to what extent the Inspectors are implicated it was
lmp~o~wible for your committee to determine Sergeant Taylor
testified that the bulk of his collections, were handed over to the
inspector in whose district he was stationed. Captain SchmidtVierger testified to the payment of considerable anmounts-to his
Imedate superior.
The conclusion seem's irresistible, upoin the record; that the
system proven to have existed included in, its operations -the
precinct detectives, or wardmen, the captains and the inspectors
of polbm e.
It is not intendled in thIs general statement to assume to charge
that all precinct detectives, all captains and all inspectors were
parties to these practices But, in the judgment of your comimndttee1 the indictnmet is so genweral, and the evidence sustaining




47


t so couclusive, that as to the officials named the burden of
proof is shifted upon them to show, so far as their connection
with the force is concerned, that they were neither participants
i nor did they know of the existence of the conditions so proved
Purchase of Appointments.
Until the confession of Captain Oreedon of the purchase of his
appointmjont, your committee had been unable to prove by direct
evidence the existence of that evil. Much appeared in the testimony pointing to methods employed for the evasion of the civil
service regulations  Much testimony was secured from citizens
who had loaned candidates, at about the time of their appointment, exactly $300.
There was, in fact, enough evidence from which it could be
reasonably inferred that there were brokers and others engaged
in the traffic of seouring police appointments, who had established $300 as the average cost Just how this money was
divided; just how high it or part of it went, it was impossible
for your committee to determine. Witnesses who might have
thrown light upon' this question successfully evaded the pro
cess of your committee.
It may be that a large part of these exactions remained wIth
the brokers or district leaders, who assumed to have peculiar
influence over those instrumental in the various stages leading
to appointments.
There was evidence tending to show the.use of money or influence at each stage. The manner in which the civil service
examinations have been conducted, the deceptions practiced
upon those in charge by personating candidates, false certift-cates and other devices, all lead to the conclusion that the present method is fatally defective.
It was testified to before your committee, and we have had
occular demonstration of the fact that the recent appointments
to the force do not compare favorably with the older officers in
character, in intelligence or in physical condition.
It would seem proper under all the circumstaaces, to reorganize the present system of civil service examination by permit



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ting the board of poice, commissioners to appoint, from time
to time, a board selected from among the force, consisting of
toia captain  and one inspector, tb be changed, from time to
time, in the discretion of the board of police, and to be approved
by the State Board of Civl Service Commissioners to examine
and report upon candidates for appointment, and to exercise
In other respects the functions of the present civil service board.
It requires no argument to show that a board thus constiftted, and which may, from time to time, be changed, is able to
better judge of the qualifications of a candidate for police duty
than can civilians who do not possess the necessary expert
knowledge to aid them in their examinations.
Moreover, the natural desire of such a board to secure the
best material for the force they command will undoubtedly lead
to careful scrutiny and intelligent discrimination. As it is, the
ormmissioners are now constrained to select candidates from
among those certified to them from a board of examining civilfans, who have no peculiar knowledge of the requirements of
police duty.
Captain Creedons  confession of the payment of $15,000 to
secure a promotion to a captaincy in his case, and Captain
Sohimidtberger's testimony confessing that he had been the
go-between in securing the appointment of another captain, in
consideration of the payment of $12,000, establishes at least, the
prevalence of that eviL
~Io what extent it has been carried on may only be conjectured. But it seems tobe a reasonable conclusion, in view of these
facts and the wealth of officers, that other promotions have
been made the subject of barter and sale. In fact, the testimony shows that the general impression throughout the force
is not only that every man must pay for his appointment, but that
promotion can only be secured either by the payment of money,
or the possession of special influence. Thus it appears that
many self-respecting men who testified as witnesses, admitted
that they had never sought promotion because they knew that
unless they paid money to secure it, their attempts would be
fruitless




49


Capfain Creedon testified that on tfo previous occasions he
had sought to secure well-merited promotion, but that in each
case he had been advised that his labor would be fruitless,
unless he purchased the influence necessary to secure the result.
It has been impossible for your committee, on this branch
of the case, to determine just how far the sums paid, or any
part of them went, or whether they remained entirely in the
pockets of those who sold their assumed influence with higher
authority.
It seems plain that the only reasonable remedy that may be
applied is to require the making of promotions upon civil service
grounds only, based mainly, if not wholly, on seniority of the
officer.
It may be that this rule should not be rigidly applied to the
chief of police and his immediate subordinates, the inspectors,
for the reason that distinct qualifications should necessarily be
possessed by those who are to control large districts and to command large bodies of men. But in all other respects the remedy
suggested should, in the judgment of your committee, be applied.
Demoralization of the Force.
It is due, In the judgment of your committee, mainly to the
prevalence of the practices last mentioned, that the police force
of the city has reached its present state of demoralization.
The policeman who pays for his appointment commences his
career with the commission of a crime, and it is not strange 'hat
the demoralization thus engendered should follow him in his
further career. The captain who pays a fortune for his appointment finds himself compelled to recoup in order to return the
moneys loaned to him by his friends by resorting to the practices
which have been disclosed in the record before us. It seems
incredible that men who are otherwise law-abiding and efficient,
should stoop to the perpetration of the monstrous and debasing
practices revealed by this record, unless influenced by a system
existing as the result of the conditions hereinbefore alluded to.
Nor is it strange that in the contemplation of these practices by
ieperior officers, inferior members of the force should have
L.        7


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50


become demoralized until the contamination has spread throughout the entire department
Your committee believes that there are a large number of
good and true men upon the force, who despise these practices,
who have refused to countenance them, and who would be
rejoiced to see their final extinction.
The remedy seems to lie in the present purging of the force by
the most drastic measures applicable, and by the application of
the principles before referred toa
Interference of Politicians.
Fronm whla appears by the foregoing, one of the main disorganizing forces has been the interference of politicians and
district leaders with the machinery of the department.
Notably within recent years political interference has been a
prevalent evil. We have referred to instances of interference in
previous portions of this report. But not only does it appear that
appointments have been made largely as the result of political
influence, but even the president of the board testified that lie was
largely controlled by political considerations in the making of his
appointments, and that district leaders, as appears from the testimory of Civil Justice floesch, deem it a part of their duty, as
political leaders, to interest themselves in securing appoint,
ments, promotions, transfers and assigments of men from place
to place in various precincta
It appeared in one instance where a policeman had sought
to enforce the law on his beat near one of the polling-places, a
district leader intefefered, and he was forthwith transfered to an
up-town district to watch a board fence. Similar interferences
abound throughout the record.                           v 
While, as compared with the more startling subjects hereinbefore discussed, this would seem to be of trifling importance;
it appears, nevertheless, to your committee to be one of the main
evils of the present system.
It is in our opinion, imperative to eliminate the influence of
political bodies and political leaders from contact with a policeman in his appointment, his duty, his assignment and transfer,
and hib promotion to, higher positions.




51


There seems to be but one remedy -at hand', and that, the MRncentration -in a superintendent-of police of all th'Ose powersl
which -irEmediately, affect his 'Subordinates-, and which haire
special reference to the efliciency and discipline of the whole
body.
Tbherefore, in addition to the recommendations herehabefore
niade, a... to, appointment and control, we hereby further recomnacrid that the superintendent, or chief of police, shall be vested
with the absolute right of assignment -and transfer of the entire
uniformed force from inspector down to patrolman.
The present superintendent charged the prevailing oondllions
largrely to interference with him by the Commissioners of police
in the assignment and transfer of the uniformed force, and insisted that If the-se additional poxwers were vested in the chief of
police, 'the conditions now p~revalent could not exist, unless the
chief bimself was eithoor corrupt or incompetent; that given
these powern- he -could readily vouch for the discipline and
mocrale of the force, and repress or suppress substantially all
lawlessnes-i in the municipality.
We recommend, therefore, the enlargement of the powers of
the chief of police accordingly.
In alluding to commissioners of police throughout this report
nic cri tic is m. is intended upon the two cmisioners recently
appointed.
Pensbons.
A n important subject for legislative consideration Is that of
pensions. As the law now reads, an officer may compel his own
retirement at half pay for -life, when he has served -twenty years,
and the board may enforce the retirement of a man when he
reaches -sixty years of age., against his will, allowing him the
san-e pension.
There are to-day on the pensIon list of the department over
seven hundred retired officers, many of whom are physically able
and thoroughly qualified to render effective police service; many
of them are anxious to remain on duty; many o-thers are engaged
in active business, while receiving half pay from the city. Indeed,
In several -casves, pensioners of the New. York force are doing
active police duty in other cities.




'Tere are on tie active force now more than  OO men wtio
have reached the time limit of twenty years service, and in a
very large number of these cases applications for retirement
are now pending.
The nnual expenditure for pensions In 1885 was $250,000.
Now it is nearly $600,000, and the prospective increase, owing
to the large number of applicants, is very great.
When the fund was first established, it was intended that
it should be supported by the police themselves, and it was
provided that deductions for loss of time, fines imposed by the
commissioners; percentages on rewards, salaries, etc., should
maintain the fund. But as these provisions proved inadequate,
other means were drawn upon so that now the pension fund
receives $300,000 annually from the excise moneys and over
$100,0 annually from  unexpended balances, besides other
items, such as fees for permits, licenses, etc.
It seems to your committee that the city should not be compelled to discharge policemen and pay them heavy pensions
when in the prime of life, and especially fitted by experience for
intelligent service. And we recommend an amendment to the
present law, leaving it discretionary with the conmissioners to
retire an officer after twenty years of service, and making such
retirement obligatory on the application of the officer after
tblrty years of service and the attainment of the age of sixty
years.
It is further suggested that it may be advisable to require
all officers pensioned to hold themselves subject to the requirements of the department in cases of emergency, each as riot
and insurrection, whereby an important auxiliary force may
thus be maintained for the protection of life and property
Finances.
No special examination of the finances of the department
was made, for lack of time, but it may be.well to call attention
to the fact that the annual appropriation for the police force
amounts now to more than t5,000,000, paid by the Comptroller
to one of the commissioners of police, who is treasurer of the




'i3


board, In equal semi-monthly payments and that all payments
out of such appropriations are made by such treasurer, whose
accounts are neither examined nor audited by any one of the
financial officers of the city; that the board lets out contract
work witheut competitive bidding, securing the privilege so to
do by resolution of the board of aldermen.
It thus follows that the department is free from all check or
oversight with reference to an expenditure of over $5,000,000 annually.
Police Commissioners.
Tour committee recommends a change in the eisting laws
whereby, by statute, the membership of the police oommission
shall be and remain equally divided between the two partie
who at the last preceding election on national and State issues,
polled respectively the highest and the next highest number
of votes  In other words, your committee recommends the
establishment by law, of a commission substantially upon the
principles now in vogue with reference to the several boards of
election inspectors throughout the State.
Conceding that a multi-headed comfission would be theoretir
cally as well as practically unnecessary for the proper adminis
tration of a department of the city government, purely administrative in its character, it must be. equally dear that other considerations apply to  a department which    unites in its
official heads  a  nunmber  of distinct  funetions,, co-ordii
nate   and eq.ui-importanit  The, differentiation  becomes
even  more strongly   marked  when   the  relation  of the
police department to the elective franchise is also   considere. Under the law as it at present exists, the police commissioners occupy a position in marked contrast to that of the
head of any other department of the municipal govcrnment
They are vested with power of appointment, of promotion, of
assignment, and of discipline with respect to a force of 4,000 men; 
that is to say under the law as it now exists, the superintendent
of police is largely a figure-head and notwithstanding the lai pro.
rides that he shall be the chief executive officer of the force, his




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powers are largely such as are derived from the commissioners
themselves, or may be exercised under the rules and regulations
adopted by them. It follows that while in theory the executive
functions belong to the Superintendent, in practice they are
lodged in the commissioners.
Then, again, the commissioners are charged with the general
administration of the affairs of the department, the equipment
of the force, the repairs and general supervision over the many
buildings required by the police, such as station houses, etc, the
disbursement of appropriations amounting annually to upwards
of $5,000,000, and the control of the pension fund, the care of its
investments and the distribution of pensions of $600,000 annually, in short, all the duties incident to the administration of
so vast and important a department
Then, again, they occupy a quasi-judicial relation to their subordinates, sitting in judgment upon all officers against whom
charges of misconduct or breach of discipline, or violation of the
rules and regulations of the department are made by the superintendent. Upon these trials witnesses may be examined on both
sides of the questions at issue, the accused is entitled to counsel, and the proceedings and judgment are reviewable in the
higher courts.
When it is considered that the police trials have averaged
5,000 annually over the past five years, and especially on the
trial of accusations against superior officers have required the
taking of much testimony, the magnitude and importahce of the
labor involved in this branch alone becomes apparent.
Then, again, the commissioners appoint under such limitations as are prescribed by law, inspectors of election. They pass
upon the certificates of nomination of candidates for election
of all political parties, and of independent candidates as well,
and they receive and are charged with the custody of the election returns; in fact, they are so closely related to the election
machinery of the city that substantially every important step
in the conduct of elections prior to and after the polling of the
vote is under their supervision, and very largely under their




control, while during the time of polling the vote their subordinates are charged with the enforcement of law, and in that
capacity, if so disposed, may exert a potent influence for or
against one or another political party, faction or candidate. The
establishment of a separate bureau of election will not relieve
the situation in this aspect
It requires only the enumeration of these various functions
to demonstrate the vast power and responsibility of the office,
the complex duties involved and the paranount necessity as
regards the welfare and happiness of the people, that the funotions so exercised shall not be abused or turned into instruments
for the oppression of the citizet, or the deprivation of his constitutional rights.
It may well be a mooted question whether, in view of the vast
power of so large a body as the police force of so great a city
for good or evil, coming in daily and hourly contact, as they do,
with the ctizens, but more especially with those who follow the
humbler walks of life, the executive functions should be confided to a single man.
It has been sought to establish an analogy between the police
and the militia, and claim has been made that the same general
plan of organization and discipline should be adopted, but, in
fact, no true analogy exist. The militia, as an organized body,
do not enter as potent factors into the daily life of the people,
nor are they charged with duties closely related to the avocations of our citizens. Their official duties are not continuous,
nor do these affect or touch our citizens in their daily live, their
persons and the pursuit of happiness.
It is otherwise with the police. A great public emergency
alone would reconcile the people, and then for a short time only,
to conditions of martial law, and they would look with justifiable
concern on the lodgment in the hands of any one man of vast
and dictatorial authority. It is, however, clear from -the evidence that a larger concentration of power within the hands of
the superintendent of police is advisable and is recommended
by your committee in the bill herewith submitted, which, if
approved, will as to the executive functions of the department




56


make   the  chief of police  in  fact the   one head, and
endow him with all the authority of a single-headed
commission to enforce law and order, and control the assignment, transfer, efficiency and discipline of the force. Supplementing this, as is recommended, with the further power of suspension of subordinates, and the control of promotions by recommendation within the civil service rules of limitation, as suggested, confers upon him a larger scope of authority than is conceded in time of peace to a military leader. The argument in
favor of a single-headed commission, relating as it does, mainly
to the executive functioos of the department, should be completely answered by these recommendations
But when the additional and onerous duties connected with
the administrative and the judicial functions of the departn'nt
are considered, it must be plain that to lodge all these vital ard
important functions in one head is to invite confusion and disaster. The impracticability of such a scheme has been recently
conceded by a large number of those who prior to this investigation were its most zealous advocates. And when the relation
of the department to the elective franchise is considered the
argument in favor of a one-headed commission loses all its
force. The Legislature at its last session placed itself broadly upon
the principle of non or bi'partisanship in,connection with the
election machinery of the state by providing for politically
divided boards of election inspectors. The functions of those
iffcers aile of no greater importance and their influences for
good or bad, upon results, are not less far reaching than those
of the police department of a great city like New York; in fact,
the conditions revealed by the testimony plainly indicate that
the  power of the police impropely exercised, would and
did reach   the inspectors themselves, and  influenced  them
in  the  execution  of their official duties  If, therefore,
the lbi-partisan  principle is applicable to  inspectors  of
election, it applies with still greater force to a police department such as that of the city of New York. A bi-partisan board
conveys a distinct declaration to its subordinates that they




57
must coniduot themselves upon non-partisan lines, and that
neither favor, reward nor promotion may be expected from
aggressive partisanship. It discourages interference, intimidar
tion or any of the evils shown by the testimony, and encourages
the performance of the paramount duty to enforce law and
order. A  one-headed commission, under the circumstances,
would be a partisan commission of the most pronounced type,
and an inducement to the force to seek the avenue of reward
and promotion through the prostitution of their power to secure
the ascendancy of the political party of which their chief is a
member. The testimony taken seems to be conclusive upon this
point. The record is silent as to any affirmative interference
by the police with the elective franchise until the board of
comnissioners became a partisan board under the administrar
tion of Mayor Grant From that time on interference became
more active and assumed constantly increasing proportions
until, at the last election, when for the first time in many yeara
undir a non-partisan or bi-partisan board, an honest election
free of interference by the police was had. It stands to reason
'that if holest elections could not be secured under a board in
which one party had the numerical superiority, what prospect
would there be for the exercise of an untrammeled suffrage under
a one-headed commission whose chief was a partisan? Or to
make it still plainer, what would have been the result last year
if the police department had been under the absolute control
of one commissioner appointed by Tammany Hall influences?
Commissioner McLean, who was the only witness not identified
with the present force, who may be considered an expert upon
this question, declined to state that from'his experience a multiheaded, bi-partisan commission was wrong in practice or theory,
but, on the contrary, doubted the expediency of a one-headed
commission in view of the experience of the city of Chicago
with that system. It is a significant fact that cities ia which.oneheaded commissions are the order, investigations into the
same corrupt practices as have been revealed before your o0mmittee, are now under consideratio. Your committee, therew
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fore, finds nothing in the evidence or facts developed before it
to warrant the conclusion that a single-headed commirssion is
preferable to or, under all the circumstances, as well adapted as
a bi-partisan commission to the performance of the duties devolving o0 the olffcial headsof the police department, regardless of
the question of the elective franchise. Considering this latter
as part of the whole, the conclusion seems irresistible that the
hi-partisan system is the only one which commends itself to
the people. Th main evil to be corrected is that of the prevalent demonstrated corruption, which, apparently, from the testimony of the superintendent, has crept into the force, mainly
because of the inability of the executive chief to assign and
trnsfer members of the force. He testified that if this power
fo assign were conferred upon the superintendent and conditions such as revealed by the testimony continued, the superintendent must either be corrupt or incompetent; hence, absolute
responsibility could be fixed for such a condition of affairs. It
will be more in accord with that proper conservatism which so
important a subject as the one under consideration demands, to
refrain from attempting legislation more radical than. that here,
with suggested, especially in view of the fact that a mayor now
presides as chief executive over the destinies of the city who
will intelligently consider the needs and requirements of the
police department, and should the measure herewith proposed
prove inadequate to the situation, will doubtless suggest supplementary legislation.
Continuance of the Investigation.
is has been before stated, your committee, for lack of time,
was unable to pursue its investigation as thoroughly as the great
questions at issue would seem to demand. Only incidentally
and in the most superficial manner were the three departments
enumerated in the resolution, the excise, charities, and corrections, and the police courts examined. But even this cursor.
investigation has satisfied us that grave abuses, inferior only
to those revealed in our record with reference to the police




59'
depiartmen,   exist In these other biratches of the municipal
government It is claimed, moreover, that similar abuses and
general maladministration are characteristic features of many
of the other departments of the government of the city of
New York. A public demand has made itself heard for farther
investigation by your committee, and we believe that thi pop
ular desire should be heeded.
On the other hand, we recognize that a change hbs recently
occurred; so that possibly the commissioners of accounts may
be able to perform all the services that may be required.
We recognize further, that legislative investigation may po*
sibly embarrass the present mayor of the city unless the same
is so conducted as to be in entire harmony with the local gowernment.
We recommend, therefore, a continuance of the powers of
your committee, increasing its scope of inquiry so as to include
every branch of the municipal govermnent, but we do not
believe that it would consist with sound judgment to initiate
or pursue any further investigation, except by request of the
mayor, and then only as to such departments as!a his judgment require legislative scrutiny..
In Conclusion.
As a summary of the recommendations hereinbefore made,
your committee respectfully recommends:
First The concentration in the hands of a superintendent
of police, to be hereafter known as chief of police, of all those
powers connected with and which affect the discipline, control
and efficiency of the entire uniformed force, including asignment
and transfer, whereby the executive functions of the department shall be lodged wholly in his hands, and he shall be, In
fact, the responsible single head of the uniformed force.
Second. The lodgment in the hands of such a chief of police
of the summary power to suspend subordinates without pay,
and to recommend officers for promotion, with such limitatio
as the bills herewith presented imposes.




60


Third. That the Board of Police Contmissioncrs shall by law
be made a bi-partisan board, with exclusive authority over the
administrative and judicial functions of the department as well
as over those which affect the elective franchise.
Fourth. That all promotions shall be made in conformity with
the rules of the civil service for merit and superior capacity
only, and within the limitations prescribed by the bill herewith
submitted.
Fifth. That the police commissioners shall have power to
appoint a board of civil service examiners, consisting of one
inspector and four captains of police, to. be approved by the
State Board of Civil Service Examiners, to pass upon the eligibility of candidates for appointment, and that the present
method be abolished.
Sixth. That the pension law shall be so amended as to leave
it discretionary with the police commissioners to permit retirement after twenty years of service, and making retirement mandatory upon them only after thirty years of service, and then
only on application of an officer who is sixty years of age or over.
Seventh. That the accounts of the department be examined
or audited in the same manner as are the accounts of other
departments of the municipal government
Eighth, That a radical reorganization of the department be
made by commissioners appointed for that purpose, upon whom
shall be conferred, subject to approval by the mayor, absolute
and summary power of dismissal of any person and persons
connected with said department, who, in their judgment, do not
possess the necessary qualifications or answer the requirements
of the service, which reorganization shall be made upon the
lines laid down in the bill for that purpose accompanying this
report 
Ninth. That your committee be continued and the scope of its
authority increased in conformity with the resolution heretofore 
introduced.
Your committee respectfully presents the accompanying bills
upon the subjects hereinbefore referred to and recommends
their passage




61
The committee remains as originally constituted except that
Charles T. Satn, resigned his office as Senator and retired
from the oommittee when elected IAeutenant-Governor.
Dated ABAoriy, January 16, 1895.
L- ARENCE LEXOW,
Chairman.
EDMUND O'CONNOR
GEORGE ROBERTSON.
CUTHBERT W. POUND.
I concur in the above report, except in the recommendation of
a bi-partisan board of police, my opinion being that there should
be a single-headed police department and a separate and bi-partisan election bureau.
DA.NIEL BRADLEY.
I regret very much that I can not concur in all the conclusions drawn and recommendations made in the above report,
but, with the consent of the senate, will present at an early day
my views and suggestions for legislation on the subject-matter
involved.
JACOB A. GANTO&.




MINORITY REPORT.
To the Senate:
In presenting this minority report it is a matter of exBreme
regret that I was unable to concur either in the conclusions
drawn by the majority or in their recommendations. As the
sole representative of the city of New York upon this special
committee, I had hoped that an agreement could have been
reached, uninfluenced by party consideration, in favor of some
measures of relief rendered necessary by the facts revealed in
the investigation. It was assumed by those who were responsible for the investigation that the work would be prosecuted
without regard to individuals, and irrespective of party considerations, but that a united and determined effort would be made
to expose whatever corruption or abuse of power might have
been found to exist in the police department of the city. It was
promised to the people that a thorough and complete investigation would be made and that its results would be of such a character as to give to that city a police department removed from
political influences and effective for the performance of its duties
In order to accomplish this result there was unanimity of sentiment on the part of the members of the committee that the
investigation should be diligently prosecuted and only for this
purpose. 
At the outset Republican counsel was employed, who, living in
a distant city, was unfamiliar with either the geographical, political or social condition of the metropolis He was entrusted with
the duty of performing what may be considered as the political
work in which the majority were engaged. It is true that a protest was made against his employment, for the reasons assigned.
In spite of that opposition he was entrusted with the work of
collecting evidence to demonstrate that the dominant political
organization of the city was interested and instrumental in the
alleged frauds in some of the election districts. He prosecuted
his labors under the guidance of the majority of the committee,




63


giving thereby political bias to his worE. Neither he nor the
committee made any effort to make a thorough and impartial
investigation of the election system, nor did he or the committee
address themselves to the ascertaining all of the facts which
involved the operation of the election laws, as executed. He
simply endeavored to prove what he considered to be not real
and substantial evidence against the election law, but irregularlties which the committee claim prove that the police were the instruments and agents to the dominant political organization of
that which the committee claim prove that the police were instruments and agents of the dominant political organization of that
city. No effort was made to show that the Republican party in
the various election districts had been guilty of any irregularities, but the evidence shows that the witnesses who were produced before the committee on this branch of the inquiry were
those whose testimony had been secuaed beforehand by the
Republican clubs of the city. These irregularities had not been
brought to the attention of the authorities, complaints.made or
prosecution instituted. The committee failed, as did its counsel,
to show that the two great political parties had equal representation on the boards of inspectors and the election officers; nor
was there any proof that the abuses alleged in the report of the
majority had been protested against by the inspectors of election, poll clerks and ballot clerks, who, under the law, were
appointed upon the recommendation of the Republican committee and named by the Republican police commissioner. It is
'probably true, and the evidence to some extent sustains the
proposition, that there were certain irregularities at the polls,
but not of a character to warrant the wholesale indictment mad&
against the entire city in the report presented by the majority.
It would be strange indeed in a great cosmopolitan city, with
its 1,100 election districts, if differences of opinion did not arise
between the election officers and the zealous watchers designated
by candidates to watch the voting and the returns. But the evidence proves that in every instance in which such a conflict of
authority occurred, and upon the attention of the police authorities being called thereto, the dispute was settled and the rights
of all carefully protected. The committee also failed to find,




64


what the recoris prove, that in the city, after election, thiere
were certain indictments and prosecutions for violation of the
election laws as the result of the official efforts of the district
attorney and the judges who were in sympathy with the dominant political organization. 
The committee say: "That in a very large number of the eleotion districts of the city of New York, almost every conceivable
crime against the elective franchise, was either committed or permitted by the police, invariably in the interests of the dominant
Democratic organization in the city of New York, commonly called
Tammany Hall." This statement made is astonishingly false amld
absolutely unsustained by the testimony.
In corroboration of what I say in regard to such an important
and vital conclusion of the committee, I confidently appeal, not'
only to the record, but to the personal knowledge of the entire
voting population of the city. I also call attention to ths fact, in
connection with this infamous arraignment of this great city
and its people, that there has not been an election during the past
twenty years, when federal officers were chosen, where the polls
and everything connected with it were not under the absolute
control of federal officers, nine-tenths of whom were Republicans,
and who possessed more power than the whole police department of the city and all of the officials of the State combined.
The testimony taken by the committee simply shows that but
in a very few of the election districts, not fifteen in all, out of
about 1,100, were there any charges, even of irregularity. It is
inconceivable how men, pretending to represent the reform political party of this State, could sd wilfully and wickedly mieprep
sent the evidence taken.
The report also proceeds to state that the police officers at the
polls considered themselves the active agents and employes of the
dominant political organization of the city. There is not a scintilla of proof to sustain this proposition; but, on the contrary, the
slight evidence taken on this subject simply shows that in two or
three instances the police officers at the polls considered it their
duty to obey the order of the majority of the inspectors  The police officers of the city are not officers of election, but are assigned
to the various election districts to preserve the peace and to pro



, 65
feet the voter. They are under the instruction of the boards of
inspectors, who are charged with the construction and enforce.
ment of the election laws. It may -and does happen that different
opinions are entertained as to the duties and rights of watchers
challengers and officers at the polls
The final decision of such differences is not and'cannot be a
crime aganst the elective franchise
In the city of New York, crimes against the ballot box have
been more sternly prosecuted and severely punished than in any
other town, city or village in the State, and its elections, there
fore, have been more free from fraud.
The reckless statements are made by the majority in order to
build up an argument against the creation of anyhing but a bipatisan commission. It will be noted that no evidence of eleer
tion frauds was submitted to the committee prior to 1892. The
majority claim that prior to that time the police coamission of
the city was bi-partisan in its character, and, therefore, no such
abuses could exist under such an administration. It might have
been interesting, but it did not suit the purposes of the majority
of the committee to go back to an earlier period for the purpose
of asoertaining whether the election laws were observed during
the existence of a bi-partisan comnission. It is elaimed by the
committee, or at least it is the only inference to be derived
from the language of the report that the police commission from
1892, dcrn to the summer of 1894 was a partisan commission.
This statement is not borne out by the fact. The evidence shows
that frmn almost the inception of the department down to the
spring of 1892, the commission was bi-partisan, to this extent
It consisted of two Republicans and two Democrats, and for a
long period of yeahs the dominant political organization of the
cify of New York, known as Tanmmany Hall, had but one police
commissioner, while the Republicans and the anti-Tammany
organization together had three members of the commission, and
whatever abuses existed in the department thoughout these
years, buth of blackmail and corruption, or of violations of the
election laws, existed under this bi-partisan commission  BUt
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In fTe spring of 1892, iere was a change made in the police
boarn. It was observed by the local authorities of the city that
police oniaisions and partisan boards of inspectors
if election existed in nearly every city and every election precinct
fhira~ugIt the State  That frequent attention had been called
to Tfis fact, but that the Republican Legislature was in favor of
retaining Republican police commissions and Republican election
boards throughout the State. In Republican strongholds it was
deeel pJroper and politic for partisan reasons to make the police commission and the election machinery partisan and, therefore, lepublican. In Democratic localities it was to be absolutely non-partisan. The New York city authorities, recognizing
this condition of things, suggested a change in the law as it
affected the city.
The change was made and when the term of a Republican
poice commissioner expired in February, 1892, the mayor filled
the vacancy by the selection of a Democrat, and until the summer of 1894 the commission consisted of a Republican commis
sioner, an anti-Tammany commissioner and    two Tammany
commissioners, truly a bi-partisan board, as far as the exercise
of any control by the dominant political organization was concerned. In 1894 the Democratic mayor of the city, upon the
resignation of a Republican commissioner and expiration of
the term of an anti-Tammany commissioner, appointed two
prominent Republicans to fill the places, so that from that time to
the present the commission has consisted of two Democrats and
two Republicans
It is to be regretted that this question of politics should have
been intruded into the report of the majority. The simple purpose was the reorganization of the department investigated, with
a view of preventing in the future certain crimes and abuses,
fer which we have the authority of the Republican leader of the,
Senate, a member of the committee, that no political party,
religos sect or distinctive race was responsible.! Suggestions will be made later of radical remedies to be
applied in order to avoid irregularities at the polls, and to prevent offenses against the franchise. The safety of the people


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depends upon thie purity of thie ballot Tie 'best minds of tMe
Staite have been and are still engaged in -recoimmending legislation that will prevent a perversion of the will of the people or
the electiona of the mien to, office by fraud or oorration. No
measure, can be considered too severe or sweeping which will
secure that result.
This minority, report is presented chiefly as -a protest against
the grossly pairtisan character of the report of the majority. 'The
comiftetook proof as to, the officers of the police who were
enrolled as members of Democratic clubs of the city. No erideuce. was taken to show how many of the police officers, high
and low, were e nrolled as members of Repablicani clubs, and
the majority condemned in the severest terms police officials
belonging to the Democratic clubs. The evidence,' however,,
shows that this practice of the police in joining plitical clubs
to acquire political 'influence was seerely denounced by the
Democratic president of the police board, and by the leader of
the Democratic party of the city. It is true that politics have
largely interfered with the personnel and discipline of the department. It is safe to assume that this is commion to all police
departments in this and other States. It seriously interferee,
however, with th~e work of the policle deparimient, iprsits
efficiency, cripples Uninfuec and destmoys the merit eysem
Men should be appointed on the faoce after their quaflflceatwios
have been duly established and should be pro]hifbited fro 'recev.
ing or soliciting the endorenient of men. holding public office.
Their promotion should'be detlermined absolutely by the record
and by the record only. This record should contain not only
the -off ensesl with whidh they have been charged a.9 m be. Of
the- force but it should set forth their good deeds and effective
work aceomplislied. It has not been the custom heire1mfore to,enter upon the books, of the department the herdic. deeds and
splendid police work of individual members of the force; the
record 'has been simply a record of offenses and penaltieslmiposed. It shoa~ld be otherwise, and promnotio-no shouid wholly
depend upon the record justly kepti uncontrolled biy personotaor
political inf luence.




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'It Is conceded that suftiient blaickmal, corruption and tdler4
ance of crime was shown to exist to waranit a reorgauizatiioB
of the department It is tre, as. the evidence shows, that this
uystem has existed almost from the oeeition of the departm~ent
It was-not deemed ponsible when the committee was first organized to obtain the necessary evidence to bring home to members
of the force specific proof of offenses alleged. Other legislative
oommittees had absolutely failed in this respect.
When the resolution of investigation was adopted there were
no specific chiaxges against any offiersm of the depsatinent but
a general charge against Vble entwire department. It was known.
or generally believed,'atb   oertain classes of crime existed which
could not have ontinued, except by the cosmivanoe of the poiioe
Mrhe committee did wisely in, intrustin the absolute power
over this branch of the Inquiry to John W. Goff, Esq, 'who bh
sln.cebeen elcted weoorder of the city of New York. He was
aided by powerful private associations who were busily engaged
in gathering proof and in securing atteindance of witnesses  No
more tieless,  industnious ad  effective counsel was ever.
employed by a committee chiaoged with a responsibility of lhis
character. It not only required courage, but great ability to
ferret out these offences and to secure the testimony necessary
ikb prove them. It Is not necessary now, especially in view of
the elaborate report made by the majority and the wide publicity given to the testimony, taken before the committee, to
detadl the crimes and abuses proven. It must be remembered
that they were committed under a hi-partisan police board which
seemed to be powerless to either prevent, prove or pmdnsh theni
It is not charged that any political party is responsible for this
state of things. Efforts were made by several members of the
board to trace to responsible persons rumors of corruption or
blackmail. 'They could not be traced nor proof secured, and it
is doubtful whether the police commissioners or superintendent
we to blame for their failure to ascertain where eorruption
xisted iand how and In what manner blckmail was levied,




69


lIt was testified to before the committee that if the police
commissioners had the power possessed or assumed by the
nvestigating committee it might have been possible to ascer
tain the extent of the corruption and blackmail and to punish
the offenders and purge the force. But they were limited in their
inquiry to offences specifically charged against the officers. They
had no right under the law to issue subpoenas or to enforce the
attendance of witnesses not members of the force, unless upon
the trial of an officer on specific charges duly made, and they
could only convict upon evidence taken under the rules of law.
Their whole proceedings are subject to review on appeal to the
courts, and in many instances their action was reversed on
technical grounds, and delinquent officers restored to duty. If
fthe board had tli power to summon witnesses to testify as to
rumors of corruption before preferring charges, it might have
been possible for the commissioners to have ascertained the
truth or falsity of the rumors and to have acted upon them. I
am in favor of conferring power upon the department of originating investigations and compelling the attendance of witnesses
so that rumors could be traced or proof obtained upon which
officers could be placed on trial. It is to be regretted that the
committee in its report accepts as true every particle of testimony produced against a police officer no matter from what
polluted source, without giving the contradiction or evadenoe
of the accused official any weight, consideration, or even mention, whatever. It was bat natural that throughout the investigation witnesses should have implicated officers because of
enmity or malice. Ah examination of the evidence, so far as it
discloses the politics of most of the officials in the department
who are implicated in the blackmail, fraud and corruption testified to, were Republicans  I should not, under ordinary cicumstanoes, have referred to the politics of those whose reputations were affected, if not completely destroyed, by testimony
of blackmail, were it not for the fact that, at every opportunity,
unsupported by proof, without any regard to the evidence, the
Republican majority have implicated the Democratic organia



tion of the city of New York. I agree with the majority report
which eulogizes the force in its entirety.
It is true that many serious charges were proven against
members of the force, but the number of those implicated is
small compared with the number of men who have been faithful
and loyal to duty. It has demonstrated its great power in
many respects in the past in the interest of the public welfare
and for the public good. It stands unrivalled as a whole. It can
be depended upon in, any emergency for bravery, for determination and for application to duty. It has a roll of honor second
fo no department in the civilized world. It has been the glory
and pride, and justly so, of the citizens of the great metropolitan city, and they look forward to that period in the history
of the department when its blackmailers and corrupt men shall
have been driven from the ranks. It is difficult, of course, in
a vast body of men, to keep it entirely free from corrupting
influences, but with the exercise of vigilance on the part of the
superior officers of the department, and with a knowledge
that promotion can depend only upon merit, and not be
obtained by bribery or political influence, it will be possible
to prevent a recurrence of the evils that have been shown to
exist
It is to be regretted that the majority of the committee
should have proceeded to indict the police courts of the city
without having had an opportunity to make an examination or
investigation Into the subject
In relation to the department of charities and corrections,
the evidence before the committee shows that several of the
keepers in the subordinate jails, where prisoners are temporarily comnmitted, have been exacting fees in violation of law.
This, however, does not warrant the majority in indicting that
department It was necessary, however, in the interest of partisanship, to discredit the administration of a Democratic department, that these wholesale chargem involving the integrity of
public officers should be made.




71


Considerable stress is laid by the majority upon an alleged
compact made between the Liquor Dealers' Association of the
various districts or precincts with the dominant political organization. There is no evidence to show the existence of any such
agreement  It is simply hinled*at without any evidence whatever, because the dominant political faction insisted that the
blackmail of the liquor dealers by the police of the city should
end, and that was the result of the interference on their part;
but, of course, the majority, utterly indifferent to the proof, and
without a scintilla of evidence to sustain their finding, determined that there was such an agreement, and finds accordingly.
It simply demonstrates the worthlessness of the conclusions
drawn by the committee, and exhibits their absolute partisanship in spreading before the people in their report conclusions
that find no evidence to sustain them in the proceedings. If
such a compact existed it would have been comparatively easy
for the committee to have shown it by an examination of the
parties alleged to have been interested in making it, but one
of the parties, whom  it was charged was instrumental in
making it, or was present when, it was made, denied nknowledge of it.
As to the Remedies.
First I concur in the first recommendation made by tie oommittee that additional powers should be lodged in the hands
of the superintendent of police similar to those suggested in the
bill accompanying the majority report  I believe that it will
add materially to the discipline of the department  I wold
further provide that the chief of police be prohibited from acting
upon the recommendation of any person holding office in the
assignment, transfer or promotion of members of the muiformed
force, and public officers should be prohibited by statute from
making such recommendations.
Second. I emphatically dissent from the proposition contained
in the third recommendation of the majority report which provides for the creation of a bi-partisan board of police commissioners. I have contended, as it will have.been observed thrxoghout the above report, that all the evils complained of and demon



72


strated to have existed were in full and complete operation under
a bi-partisan board of police. In the first place, the principle
is bad in theory. It is worse in practice. It is a divided responsibility and there is no way in which the people can hold either
individuals or political party to a strict accountability for the
actions of the board.
As a further indication of the character of the report made by
the majority on this very matter, it is alleged that cities in which
one-headed commissions are the order, investigation to the same
corrupt practices as have been revealed before your committee
are now under consideration. There is not a particle of proof to
sustain any such finding on the part of the committee. No evidence whatever was taken by the committee to indicate that in
any city of this State where a single-headed commission exists
were there any abuses of any kind, nature or description. On the
conrary no evidence affecting any such locality with a single.
headed commission was presented to the committee.
It has been clearly demonstrated by the evidence that the
bi-partisan commission which has existed from the creation of
the department down to the present hour, has proven a failure
It has demonstrated its weakness, and it is time to suggest a
radical change that may accomplish the desired reform which
the people of the city of New York demand. I am in favor of
a separation of the bureau of elections from the police deptrtment of the city. As a representative of the city of New York,
I have carefully watched the workings and observed the'practical results derived from a consolidation of the police department
and the election machinery of the city. I believe that the time
has arrived when the two departments should be separated. If
that is done it will eliminate from the argument in favor of a
bi-partisan commission nearly all that is alleged in order to sustain it I would provide first for a single-headed commission of the
police department for the city of New York. I believe that force
il the hands of a practical man, hones faithful and conscientious, would be relieved of the abuses shown to have heretofore
existed, and can be honestly relied upon to exercise tre and




73


efficient police duty. I am aware of the strong sentiment which
seems to dominate the Republican machine in favor of a bi-patisan commission.
In this determination to be arrived at in regard to the safe
and successful policy to be adopted at this time in the creation
of a new commission, it is well to be governed by public opinion,
universally expressed in the city to be affected by the legislations
especially when that demand is made after the bi-partisan commission has been the product of so much evil. I am, therefore,
as I have suggested, in favor of a single-headed commission,
appointed by the mayor of the city, and I am not unmindful of
the fact that that official is opposed to the political convictions
which I entertain, but I believe he can be safely trusted with the
appointment of a competent commissioner to occupy this offie
In the creation of the new bureau of elections to be separately
constructed, I would suggest the appointment of two commissioners, representing the two dominant political parties, whose duty
it shall be, under a bill to be hereafter presented by me, to control the election machinery of the city under the present safe and
conservative election laws so that all political interests can be
protected. 
With respect to the police department, I would eliminate from
it all partisanship and political considerations. It is perhaps
the most important department of the city government Through
a proper.and conservative exercise of its functions depends the
peace of the city and the enforcement of all the criminal law&
This immense power, great as it is, is one which should be
exercised with a due regard to the rights of all the citizens irrespective of social, political or religious distinctions& It is said
that the concentration of this power in the hands of one man
would be autocratic in its character, and for that reason it should
not be possessed by any single individual. I cannot concur in
any such statement. I can conceive of no reason why a police commissioner, whose duty is administrative only, with a chief of
police, exercising the powers contemplated in the proposed legis
lation, and under the vigilant and watohful supervision of the
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74


newspapers and the people of the city, should not give satisfaotion to the people. At any rate, it must be conceded that inas
much as a bi-partsan commission has been proven to be a failure,
it is the duty of the Legislature to provide some new measure
by which that department can be governed; and I know of no
other proposition that would meet the present emergency than a
single-headed commission.
The organization bill recommended by the majority report
directly violates the doctrine of home rule. To such an extent
have the people of the State declared in favor of this doctrine,
that the revised Constitution adopted by the people last fall embraces a home rule amendment This proposed bill at the outset, and for reasons which seem to be incomprehensible except
upon the theory of deriving some partisan advantage through
its enactment, provides for the creation of a commission of three
to be appointed by the Governor for the purpose of reorganizing the police department of the city. The policy of the State
has been to confer the power upon the chief executive of a city
to appoint all commissions created to perform local services
I am satisfied that it was contemplated by the majority that the
Governor of this Stae would create a commission, partisan in
its chaacter, conisting of two Republicas and one Democrat
to neorganize the police force, that would accomplish the work
in a manner satisfactry to those who dominate the Republican
rty in this State. It is to be, according to their recommendation, a bi-partisan  oard of police, to control the deartmeat,
but a partisan majority to reorganize it before it is transferred
to that commisson  If the bi-partisan policy appeals so strongly
to the judgment and conscience of the majority, it is inconceivable why a bi-partisan majority was not suggestted for the purpose of reorganizing the force. But, in this respect, as in many
othrs heretofore indicated in this report, the majority seek to
derive some partisan advantage from the police force thus reorganized. I propose, when the bill recommended by the majority
omnes before the Senate for action, to move an amendment to
the first section of the bill by providing that the mayor of the




75


city shall appoint the commission to exelute hie provisfonO of ffi 
proposed new law. I am for home rule for the city of New
York in this particular as in all oher matters o legislation
which may come before the Senate for'its final action, respecting
any city or locality within this State. I shall also insist that
the police department shall have the power similar to that con.
ferred upon legislative comaittees to examine into all matters affecting the deparnttbent of the city under the reorgajiza,
tion plan so that no recurrence of the evils proven to have
existed shall again find its way into that department.
Conclusion.
It has not been my purpose inthis minority repor to attempt
to analyze the evidence taken by the committee. I have simply
endeavored to answer some of the statements unsupported by
the evidence which have been made by the majority. I realize
how important the action of the Legislature in this respect will
be to the people of New York, and the recommendations that
I have suggested are of a character which I believe all honest and
loyal people in the city desire should be enacted into law. I
have endeavored to strip my mind of all partisanship and to
suggest to the Legislature such modifications in the proposed
new laws and such additional recommendations as will make
the department under consideration a model of its kind. It can
be done if the majority of the Legislature will be governed, not by
party policy and the behests of political leaders, but by a regard
for the best interests of the people. There are occasions
when men should rise superior to party convictions or pai-ty
advantages. The welfare of the great city should be the
first concern of all who are called upon to legislate in her behalf,
and I confidently rely upon the unbiased judgment of the Senate and the Assembly to deal with this question in a thoroughly
patriotic manner. Political differences may exist in relation to
other branches of the city or State government, but the police
power of the city or State should be free from political influences or considerations. The police power when exercised in
a great metropolitan city reaches all classes of the people. It




76
has been used to an astounding extent In the past in the oppres
sion of the unfortunate and the ignorant and the poor, down,
trodden classes that have emigrated to our shores from tyran
nical gavernments. In the exercise of a sound discretion it is
hoped that the Legislature will so act in the reorganization of
this department that protection shall be absolutely extended to
all persons engaged in peaceful pursuits or honest callings, and
and that neither protection, tolerance nor immunity shall be
extended to crime.
Respectfully submitted.
JACOB A. OANTOU







PROCEEDINGS
OF THI
First meeting of the Committee to whom was assigned
the investigation into the conduct of the Police
Department of the city of New York, held at the
Court of Common Pleas, Part III, in the County Court
House in the city of New York, Friday, March 9, 1894
at 0o. m.
Present- Senators Clarence Lexow, Grge   W. Robertsom,
Cuthbert W. Pound, Edmund O'Connor, Daniel Bridley and
Jacob B. Cantor, of the comittee.
William A. Sutherland, of couasel for the-mmi   asssted
by HenH y _ rasse.
Delancey Nicoll, of counsel for the police board.
The Chairman.-Is this counsel ready to proceed?
Mr. Sutherland.-Theu, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen of the
committee, if I may be indulged for a few moments before
calling witnesers, I should be glad to say a word or two with
regard to the character and scope of this inquiry, and the sort
of matter which it is expected shall be laid before this oommit
tee, responsive to the resolution which ld to your appointment
In the first place, it seems to me clear that it is the bounden
duty of the committee, and those who shall assist this committee, to commence at the root of the matter, to start at the
foundation, with the inquiry. The scope of the inquiry which
this committee is directed to institute by the- Senate,- which
areated it, involves every abuse existing in the police depart



78


ment in the city of New York; that certain abuses, certain
specified evils, have prompted the inquiry, may be true; but it
is, nevertheless, true that the resolution directs that the inquiry
be broad and sweeping, and cover all of the abuses that are said
to exist in the police department For this reason, it seems to
me that we ought to begin at the root of the matter, in order
that the inquiry may be orderly, logical and resultful; but it
seems that those who ought to be upholding the hands of this
committee are, some of them, ready to questioni the propriety
first, of the committee bbing the investigating body; and second,
the propriety of the committee directing the investigation, first
of all, to the prime evil, that out of which all the others grow.
I venture, therefore, to suggest, first, that the committee represents the Senate, and the Senate represents the people of the
entire State, and not the people of any particular locality. For
the first time in the history of the State of New York, and I
venture to say for the first time in the history of civilized government, the Legislature has been asked to put its hand into
the public treasury and set apart the funds that shall provide means for carrying on this investigation, so that the
attention of every taxpayer in the State has been sharply turned
to the proposition that this is an investigation carried on by the
people of the State for the benefit of all the people, for the
benefit of the State in its entirety, however much additional
local benefit may come to any particular locality. There is one
thing in which all the people of the State are interested without
regard to the place of their residence, without regard to their
political affiliations. That one subject is the sovereignty of the
people, the right and the privilege of every citizen of the State
to record his will in the ballot-box, the only place where he can
speak; upon that subject every citizen of the State has the same
interest that has any other citizen, no matter where he lives, no
matter to what political party he may belong; and I say the taxpayers in Ogdensburg, and Buffalo, and Dunkirk, and Patchogue,
having been sharply reminded that they are concerned in this
investigation, have the right to ask the committee to see that
their rights as citizens of the State are conserved by this investigation. It is said, however, that such an inquiry is of a partisan
character, and, therefore, to be questioned, possibly.to be had,
but to be had with excuses, to be deprecated and apologized for.
But there was no partisanship in the conviction and sentence of
John Y. McKane; there was no political party that was concerned in the inquiry that went on before the court and the jury
in that ase.' The question that was there investigated was




')7


strictly and only the right of the people of that locality to expresi
their wish in the ballot-box. There was no partisanship in the
inquiry that has been going on within this city for the past few
-weeks, which has resulted in sending many an election officeri
to places behind the prison bars. The rights of all of the people
were concerned in that investigation. There was no partisanship, because there wa? no party that dared or ever will dare
stand up behind and support men who have violated the Election
Law. Upon ti'e contrary the wisest, the most far-sighted as
well as the ablest men in both political parties have united in
saying that this sort of wrong should be suppressed at all
hazards and at any cost. No one can forget how, but last fall,
the leading Democratic journal in the neighboring city across
the river, the " Brooklyn Eagle," balled attention to the plotting
that was then evident, showing the intention of the Gravesend.authorities to subvert the will of the people at the ballot-box.
No one can forget with what wondrous diction, with what
strength and even majesty of denunciation the "Brooklyn Eagle"'
sent day after day to the people those wonderful philippics,
which are well worthy of place among the classics of English
literature. But the day before yesterday the leading Democratid
newspaper of western New York, the "Buffalo Courier," said these
words: "PIublic sentiment will be irresistible in demanding that
election booths hereafter shall be scenes of order and obedience
to law. Is government to be turned into a ghastly mockery by
the bulldozing and bullets of political bullies? The hired agents
of party machines controlled by unprincipled bosses?" This is
not the language of a Republican orator, nor of a Republican
newspaper, but these words are taken from the "Buffalo Courier."
"In the face of such dangers party ties will be thrown off and
the people unincumbered will stand forth in defense of the
integrity of the ballot-box. The rights of American citizenship
in New York must be vindicated. Compared to this duty other
State and local issues are insignificant and paltry." In the face
of these declarations; in the face of what has been going oh
in the courts of this city and neighboring cities; in the face
of the desperate deeds that were done on Tuesday of this
week; in face of the violations that prevailed at the polling
places in Troy, sitting as we do to-day, when, at this same hour,
there is being carried to his grave the body of a man whose.only offense was that he strove to protect the ballot-box against
fraud-it seems to me that the very atmosphere ought to draw
the committee from every other consideration to come first to
that which is the foundation stone of our government; because,
what other laws there may be, they must all spring from the




80


representatives of the people. There can be no law without
government; they are the sovereignty, when they stand with
ballots in hand. The deposit of that ballot is the act of sovereignty, the supreme act of National and State existence. If
that be pure, the will of the people be honestly expressed and
honestly counted, fearlessly made known, and fearlessly executed, then, indeed, is it a government of the people. No law
can stand except upon this foundation; and however much other
laws may be attacked, however much the violation of other laws
may be deplored, the violation of this right strikes at the foundation of our American system of government. This is also a
question that must deeply concern every citizen of the State.
It is because there are eyes directed toward this committee
from every quarter of the State, that it seems expedient that
this inquiry Should be first directed toward a question which
will meet response from the hearts of honest men in all parts
of the commonwealth; therefore, to-day you will be asked to
listen to evidence relating to the interference of the police with
the elective franchise of the city of New York. You will be
shown that by reason of some motive, possibly to be guessed
instead of proven, by reason of some command, possibly not
reduced to writing, but only to be inferred, the police in the
city of New York, instead of being the jealous guardian of the
sovereignty of every voter in the city of New York, have been
active participants in attempts at every election to overthrow
the sovereignty of the citizens of New York, to bring about a
result, not that desired by the voters, but that desired by the
masters of the police; that, in pursuance of these attempts that
have gone so far as to besiege the voter within the sacred precincts of the election booth, and there, where the law, drafted
by one of the members of this committee, has contemplated
that the sovereign of the State should be left alone with his
own conscience, and the sovereign of us all, these so-called
guardians of the law have pursued the voter to beseech the
casting of the vote desired by the masters of the police. We
shall show that they have taken the votes from the hands of the
voters and commanded that this or that ballot should
be deposited in the box; that when voters have failed
or refused  to  comply  with these  demands   they  have
been  taken  by  the  neck  and  hurled  from  the  place.
We shall show     that when   honest men    have  sought
as did Robert Ross in Troy, the other day, to prevent the operations of repeaters or nonresident voters, and have been
assaulted by ruffian acting in the interest of a dishonest vote,




81


the police have afforded no protection to the honest resident,
but rather have aided the other side. We shall show where
police officers have taken the ballots, after they have been
counted, after the close of election, and under the pretext that
it was necessary to reduce the number of ballots then in the
box, have taken ballots bearing names other than those in
which they were interested and openly destroyed them. In
other words, we shall show repeated acts of personal violence,
of intimidation, of interference, of unlawful, unwarrantable and
unheard of prostitution of the will of the people by the
active  operations  of the  police  of New   York.. It is
manifest that this sort of inquiry may be carried on in a somewhat desultory manner; that is, the committee may sit to-day
and hear a given number of witnesses  It can adjourn for a
week, and come again and hear others, without any harm to
the result of the inquiry; but there is another branch which the
committee will be invited to consider which may not be thus
investigated. There are subjects which you have been asked
to probe that will require oontinuous sessions, because it is
charged that the police of this city thrive upon the profits of
erime; that they are copartners in the products of offenses
against the criminal laws; that for immunity given to violators
of law they did levy tribute, taxes and blackmail. Upon that
line of inquiry, when the committee shall enter, it will doubtless
be necessary that the sessionssbe continuous and protracted, for
which reason the Senators, now being obliged to discharge their
duties at Albany, doubtless can not give at present the requisite
time and attention; but the time will come, doubtless after the
Legislature shall adjourn, when this committee can enter upon
that inquiry faithfully, diligently and fruitfully. When that
time comes evidence will be produced before you with the same
degree of fearless impartiality that will be displayed in the
examination of the offenses against the ballot-box, and every
known or supposed source of information will be probed to the
bottom to bring to the surface whatever there may be to throw
light upon that inquiry. You will be asked to give patient and
careful and continuous attention to a mass of details that will
be spread before you upon the subject. In that regard I venture
to say what seems to be called for in view of the attitude of some
of the press, that no pains or labor or expense will be spared to
produce the utmost results, and that every man, woman or child
in the city of New York who is in possession of evidence, or who
has ever claimed to be in possession of evidence upon this subject will be invited, then urged, and if need be, compelled to
produce here whatever evidence he or she may have. I do not
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82
need to say fo r tha eimiltte that when the time comes, so fa
as the   committee  is concerned, the   investigation  will
not only be vigorous and forceful b6tt that it will be pursued
to its legitimate end no matter who may be hit; that without
fear or favor the inquiries will' be pushed until all of the truth
shall be elicited. Indeed, I think the committee might well say
of itself that it sits here to-day and will until the conclusion of
this inquiry, having before it but the one motto, "pledged but to
truth, to righteousness and to law. No favor sways us, and no
fear shall awe."  Entering upon the investigation in this
spirit the inquiry can not fail to be graifying to every lover of
American institutions, to every sincere well wisher for the welfare of our State; and he who lifts a finger against any portion
of this inquiry must stand self accused by that act of seeking
to defeat the entire inquiry; because when once the matter is
commenced at its root, whether one seeks to throttle the invest!gation there, or to strangle it later, his effort is in either event
directed against the whole inquiry; because there can be no law
enforced unless it rests upon the ballot-box, unimpeached and
unimpeachable. The superstructure which is more apparent,
more readily brought to sight, must nevertheless rest upon the
foundation, and whatever local regulations there may be in the
city of New York, whatever statutes may be passed by the Legis
lature, constitute but the superstructure of our system of government  Attacks thereon are'indeed guarded against; and it
is believed that the result f this investigation will be productive of such legislation as shall throw greater safeguards
about the purity of the homes, the sanctity of the person,
the obedience to general law of the citizens of the city of New
York; but before that can come, the prime and fundamental evil
must be itself corrected; for, until the wise and the virtuous and
pure can express their will at the ballot-box, and by means of
that machinery formulate their will into law and compel obedience to that law, all attempts at law are but mere words. So I
say, that he who attempts to strangle this inquiry at any of its
stages must be content to be classed in the category of those
associates whom he chooses for himself, many of whom have
within but a few days past been sent to their proper place
behind the prison bars. There was a time when a man by the
name of John Y. McKane would have said that the investigation
into abuses respecting the ballot-box by this committee would be
a matter to be deprecated, that it would lead to a partisan legislation, and that on the whole it would not be conducive to good
government; but I apprehend that in his mind, with a change of
residence, has come a change of opinion. There was a time when
a score or more of election officials in the city of New York held




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the same view. Some of them at pecuniary cost have learned
otherwise.' Others of them have been sent by the courts to
places where they can by reflection come to a different opinion
There were men in the city of Troy but Tuesday last who said
that interference wifh the rights of the citizens at the balcltrbox
must be stopped, even at the cost of human life; and a martyr
as truly such as any who stood under the flag of our land and
received in his breast rebel bullets has fallen in the cause of
freedom in the city of Troy within this week. A martyr, I say,
in the cause of freedom, because he stood there to protect you
and to protect me. The election in any place is not a local affair
because it is the exercise of the sovereignty there existing. In
that exercise every man of every part in the State of New York
has the deepest interest. Therefore, I say that he who seeks now
to prevent any inquiry into the fundamental question thereby
attacks the right of every honest man residing within the State
of New York; but whether that be attempted or not, I venture
now to say that the committee will be invited to consider a mass
of evidence bearing upon this branch of the inquiry, evidence of
such a character as, it seems to me, will convince the entire
State of which New York city is but a part, that there is great
need of some change in the laws regulating the conduct of the
police, looking to the end that here in New York, as well as in
the peaceful hamlets of the country, the will of the people shall
first find its way into the ballot-box, and then shall be truthfully
recorded. I did not intend to talkl quite so long, and I ask your
indulgence for having done so.
Mr. Nicoll.-Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, 
would like to be recorded as appearing for the police department upon this investigation, as representing them before you.
Chairman Lexow.-We have no objection at this ju-oture, M.
Nicoll, to have your name recorded as being present and appearing for the department; but as to what extent the license to counsel will be allowed for the police department is not a matter
that has been considered or determined by the committee. I do
not understand that you claim that you are entitled as matter
of right to appear as counsel on the matter of investigation of the
police department at this time, with all the rights and powers
of counsel as in a suit.
Delancey Nicoll.-I beg your pardon; I did not hear what
you said.
Chairman Lexow.-I do not understand you claim you are
entitled to appear here as counsel of the police department, with
all the rights and powers of counsel as in a suit.
Mr. Nieoll.-I understand the history of these investigations




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In recent years to be this, that counsel for parties for public
officers whose acts are under investigation are always allowed
to appear and to take part in the examination of witnesses The
last committee that sat in the city New York, as I recollect, was
the Fassett committee, which investigated the sherif's office;
and if I recollect, Mr. Cochrane and Mr. Choate attended before
that committee on behalf of the persocs under investigation, and
were accorded the right, on proper occasions, to cross-examine
witnesses for the purpose of ascertaining the truth. Of course,
there would be no propriety of counsel for the party under inves
dgation seeking to hinder or to defeat or baffle or obstruct in
any way the investigation of the committee, or to use up any,
unnecessary time in the examination of witnesses, but that they
should be allowed to interfere on proper occasions simply for the
purpose of protecting their client's rights.
The Chairman.-As long as your services are of that nature
before the committee,'that issall right. If it is for the purpose
of embarrassing the committee, you will not be allowed to do
that
Delancey Nicoll.-I was one of the committee on the investigation of the aqueduct, and we accorded the counsel for the
aqueduct committee the fullest examination of witnesses
Chairman Lexow.-We evidently agree upon that subject, Mr,
Nicoll. Mr. Sutherland, do you wish to say anything further
on that point? This matter might as well be understood on the
start
Mr. Nicoll.-I do not intend to take up the time of the committee in making speeches, which is a function which may be
enjoyed exclusively by the counsel for the committee, and I
shall not undertake to make any speech, but I think I ought to
say for the benefit of the committee and on behalf of the depart.
ment which I represent, that if the committee find any act of
misconduct or interference with the exercise of the right of
sovereignty, by any member of the department during the last
election, why, the responsible officers of the department will
join with the committee in seeing that proper justice is done
to any such person; but, at the same time, I must-I feel it my
duty-to remind the committee of this fact: we had an election
in this city in November last. Before tf at election took place,
the Bar Association of this city appointed a committee for the
purpose of generally supervising the conduct of the election
and observing any irregularities which might appear. Quite
a large number of lawyers-I think 100 or more-volunteered
to take part, to act as watchers and observers at the polls
during the progress of the election. In addition to that,




85


the Republican Club, as I now    recall it, appointed their
own special watcher, and after the election was all over,
they had collected an amount of evidence, tending to prove
irregularities-offenses against the Election Laws, violation of
the Election Code on the part of the various election officers and
others. The matter was submitted to me, who was at that time
district attorney of New York, and I called a special grand jury
to investigate all these election frauds in this city. That grand
jury was duly impaneled by the Court of Oyer and Terminer
and sat during the entire month of December, continuously
from day to day, and sometimes all day, and every opportunity
was accorded to every citizen, whatever his political connection
may have been, to appear before that committee, and to testify
against anybody for any violation of the Eleetion Law in this
city-police and everybody.else; and as the result of all that,
some 70 or 80 prosecutions were comiftnced by me, which have
been since prosecuted by Colonel Fellows with the result that a.
number of men were convicted of violation of the Election Law
and some of them sent to prison. Now, during all that time I
think it is only proper to say that with the exception of some
isolated cases, here and there, I never heard a word from any
body that the police had interfered with the free exercise of the
right of suffrage, or that there was any complaint against them,
and I am surprised to hear Mr. Sutherland say, and I shall be
indeed surprised if I hear him prove that there was any such
wholesale interference with the exercise of the right of suffrage
in this city at the last election on the part of the police as he
suggests. It has been said by some of,those gentlemen who
came out sometime ago as your coadjutors and critics, that
Mr. Sutherland was a baby, so far as his knowledge of the New
York police department was concerned; but I tell you now, that
if he proves that there was a wholesale interference on the part
of the police in this city, he will have discovered what no one of
us in New York - Republican or Democratic, or Anti-Snapper, or
Millholland Republican, or Committee of Thirty, or Tammany
Hall has ever discovered, up to this date-and he will have
furnished us with a surprise which will be as novel as it will be
sad. That is all I have got to say at present
Daily Williams, being called as a witness by Mr. Sutherland
in behalf of the committee, was sworn by Mr. Lexow.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Three hundred and forty-six
East Thirteenth street.
Q. And in what Assembly district is that? L1 The Tenth
Assembly district. 




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Q. And which election district? A. It is the eleventh election
district of the Tenth Assembly district.
Q. And you have resided there how long? A. I have resided
i:l that particular election district something like six months, but
have lived in the Assembly district something like 40 years
Q. You have resided, in the Assembly district for the past 40
years? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And been active on election days? A. Since I was 21 years
of age; yes, sir.
Q. You are acquainted with the police officers in that section
of this city?  A. I am.
Q. And with the active and working element of the opposite
political party? A. Yes, sir; I am.
Q. That is, those who reside there? A. Yes, Mir.
Q. Did you occupy anv official relationship to the election last
fall? A. I did.
Q. What was it? A. Well, I was regarded as the leader of
the Republican organization in that district, and in that capacity I assumed a general supervision over the affairs of the
Republican party in that district and its interests
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You mean in the election district? A. No, sir; in the
Assembly district.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. And you have occupied that same position on previous
occasions? A. Not continuously in the capacity as district
leader, but as subordinate.
Q. But you have always been active? A. Yes, sir; since I was
21 years of age.
Q. Tell us what you observed, if anything, with regard to the
operations of the police on last election day? A. I paid a visit
to the third election district of the Tenth Assembly district on
the morning of election about 9 o'clock; I went there for the purpose of notifying the inspectors of election of an illegal registraticn; I got the information of the illegal registration from the
man who owned the house from where the man was registered;
I notified the inspectors and requested that they should mark
challenged opposite his name; they refused to do so, and while
I was there there was a man who came in and offered to vote,
having registered from the house No. 111 Fourth avenue, and
whom I have reason to believe was not a bona fide resident of
that house; the reasons for my belief in that particular respect




87


were that there were some twenty odd people registered from
that house; this man came in while I was there and offered his
vote; I immediately challenged his vote upon the ground that I
did not believe he was a bona fide resident, and during the controversy that ensued over this man's challenge, the Tamimany
Hall eaptain I think he was, or one of their workers, walked in
the polling place, and he said to me: "If I were the inspector of
the election I would break that book over your head;" the two
police officers stood as close to me as I am to the nearest of you
gentlemen; but I said to him: "You are not the inspector of
the election;" he said, "I wish I was;" I said, "So do I;" so he
said, "I have a —;" is there any objections to using profane
language?
Mr. Lexow.-State the language as nearly as you can.
The Witness.-He said: "I have a damned good mind to
break your jaw anyway." I walked up to him and said: "Go
ahead. Start in." And the policemen sat there and never said
a word, never interfered in any way, shape or manner and in the
end I succeeded in carrying my point; I made the inspector of
election administer the oath in a manner which I thought would
be such as to impress the party with the fact that he was taking
a solemn obligation.' He did so, and answered the questions to
the satisfaction of the inspectors, but not to my satisfaction, and
was permitted to vote; that was one instance.
Q. Was there any other instance in the third district? A. In
the third election district?
Q. Yes, sir?  A. Not of my personal knowledge.
Q. Then you passed to the fourteenth election district of the
Tenth? A. On the- night of the election I went there in the
-capacity of a watcher to watch the count
Q. Were you supplied with the regular official authority? A. I
was, yes, sir; I walked into the polling place and showed my
credentials to the inspectors of election and was invited to sit
at the table, but as soon as they learnt of my mission they
crowded around me, knocked my hat over my eyes, knocked it
-off two or three times, and threw every possible obstacle in my
'way.
By Mr. Lexow:
Q. What do you mean by that? A. The gang that was around
-there; I couldn't call any of them by name, although I knew a
number by sight.
Q. Private citizens or police officers? A. They were citizens;
-they were not inspectors; they were outsiders; the inspectors
were all right, they didn't object to my sitting there; it was the
ipeople who were outside; the two police officers sat there or




88


one of them certainly, and I remonstrated with them officers and
asked him if he could not afford me the protection a watcher
was entitled to; he said: "I don't see anybody bothering you;"
I said, "It seems to me I feel a good deal of it; those people are
knocking me around and knocking my hat off," and finally I
managed to live through it all, got disgusted and went out without any serious injury coming to myself.
Q. Did the police deny that they saw any of this? A. Yes
sir.
By Mr. Lexow:
Q. How long did that last? A. During the whole time.
Q. How long? A. Probably as long as I stayed; I waited until
the State ticket was counted, and then I left.
Q. In time, how long did it last? A. Probably half an hour.
Q. How far was the policeman from you at fhe time? A.
Sitting almost opposite; as near to me as you are.
By Mr. Sutherland 
Q. What time of night was this? AL Somewhere about 5
o'clock; just after the close of the polls.
Q. Was there any occumrenoe in the fourteenth district of
the Tenth Assembly district than you have named? A. None
that I know of; that was my experience.
Q. Pass to the forty-third district of the Tenth; what did
you- observe there?  A. Of my own personal knowledge I
know nothing; no more than the fact that the man who was in
charge of the Republican interests in that district had a man
arrested for an attempted illegal voting; he demanded that the
officer should arrest him, and the officer did so, and took him
a block or a block and a half from the polling place and then
let him go.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Were you present at the time? A. No, sir.
Mr. Sutherland.-I only desire to inquire about what the witness knows personally.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Was there any circumstance in that district which came to
your personal knowledge? A. No, sir.
Q. Pass to the twenty-sixth district? A. Nothing there only
what I heard.




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Q. I shall want to call you presently-  A. That was last
election, but I might go back two or three years.
Q. I am going back to the election preceding, but before
doing that I wish to ask this question: Whether you saw or
learned of occurrences of a similar nature at any time while the
police force was dominated by a commission consisting of two
Republicans and two Democrats? A. I never did; no, sir.
Q. And you say to the committee that you have had experience, personally, at the polling places ever since you were 21
yeas  of age? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have always been an active worker in the Republican
party? A. Yes, sir; there has scarcely been an election day
for 20 years that I have not been what is known as a captain
of an election district; there.might have been a lapse of one
or two.
Q. You have now described those scenes which you were a
personal witness of at the last election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Take the election next preceding it and tell the committee
what, if anything, you saw then? A. The election of 1892?
Q. Yes, sir. A. I can not recall anything because I devoted
my entire attention to one election district in 1892, and in consequence of the fact of my knowledge I got a fair show and
another thing by reason of the fact that I was a United States
marshal.
Q. Then take the one before that? A. I don't know that I can
recall anything during the Fassett campaign of 1891, but I ean
go back a year further when I was a candidate for office in 1890,
if that is not ancient history now.
Q. That is not too far back? A. Well, I went into the polling
place, I think then it was the fourth election district of the
Fao-teenth Assembly district, if my memory serves me right;
I aint sure of that quite, but I think that was it; there was some
trouble there about the manner in which the election was being
conducted and all that sort of thing and I went in there and
demanded to know what was the matter; the policeman stepped
up to me and said, "What do you want here, Daily?" I said,
'Nothing," calling him by name; "I have just come in to look
after the interests of the party and myself; I am a candidate
for office and want to get an opportunity, and want all that is
coming to me;" he said: "If you don't shut up I will put you
out of here;" I said to him, "You are big enough to do it, you
have a uniform and club, but if I were you I would not put me
out; n he said, "I will;" I said, "Don't you do it, because if you
do, you will be sorry;" so we had a.little more controversy and
his side partner, the other officer, walked up over to him and he
said, calling him by name, he said, "If I were you I would not
put that fellow out;" he said, " He go to hell, what do I care for
L        12




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90


him?" he aid, "I am going to put you out," and I said, "Yor
will have to put me out if I am going out;" so he took me by the
shoulder and took me out in the street; of course when he put
me out I went out, that was sufficient.
Q. Where did this conversation take place? A. In the polling
place.
Q. And that was you say what district? A. I think it was
the fourth election district of the Fourteenth Assembly district
at that time.
By Mr. Bradley:
Q. You did not live in that district? A. No, sir; I was a candidate for office though.
Q. You testified here a.bout challenging a man; you iKnew he
was not a voter? A. I d1d not know positively but had reason
to believe he was not a bvna fide resident of the house in.hich
he offered to vote from.
Q. After the challenge did you ask the policeman to arrest
him? A No, sir; after being put out of this polling place I went
to the station-house and reported to the captain; reported the
circumstances, and the captain sent up another officer and took
that man out of the polling place and sent another in his place, consequently there was not any mode trouble there that day; I might
add, in that connection, that the police capain was a Republican,
and I knew him.
By Mr. Lexow:
Q. Do you wish to ask any questions, Mr. Nicoll?
Mr. Nicoll.-Shall I wait until you conclude?
Mr. Lexow.-No; you can go on.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll, who appears in behdalf of
the police department:
Q. Are you connected with any political organization? A.
Yes, sir; I am.
Q. What organization? A. The Republican organization.
Q. With what? A. The Republican organization of the Tenth
Assembly district.
Q Which one? A. The regular organization.
Q. Which is that?
By Mr. Sutherland: Is there any other?
Witness-I don't know that there is.
Q. (By Mr. Nicoll,) Are you a Mfillholland, or a Committee o




91


Thirty man?   A I am a member of the regular Republican
organization of the Tenth Assembly district; if you want to know
my individual predilections I will give them to you.
Q. Give them to us  A. I am an admirer of Mr. Millholland.
Q. And you believe in a bi-partisan bill? A. I do; yes, sir.
Q. And the reason you believe in a bi-partisan bill is because
you recollect the good old times when we had a bi-partisan boardl?
A. I do.
Q. And when we had the bi-partisan board there was no disorder in New York, and no interference by the police? A. No,
sir; none that I ever saw.
Q. What was the name of this officer in 1890? A. I would
like to be excused answering that question, as it might get the
officer in trouble, and I have not any desire to do that; I would
state, though, that he is at present on the police force.
Q. Who was with you in the polling place at that time? A. I
went alone.
Q. This time in the fourteenth of the Tenth? A. I went alone;
of course, all the other inspectors were there, and the officers
and a lot of other people.
Q. Who saw this occurrence which you speak of? A. Everyone
who was there.
Q. Tell us the names of them? A. The inspectors of election;
I can not recall their names now.
Q. Give us the name of anyone there who saw it? A. I can
give the name of our own man who saw it, John J. 3rooks.
Q. He was a Republican inspector? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Don't you know any other who was there excepting Mr.
Brooks? A. I can't call any one else now by name.
Q. Well, I understand you to say that some police officer stated
that he had a damned good notion to break your jaw? A. I
didn't say any such thing.
Q. That is not true? A. I did not say it
Q. I beg your pardon: that some one else said it? -. yes, sir.
Q. Did he break your jaw? A. No, sir.
Q. Did he show that he had any damned good notion to break
your jaw? A. He looked a little pugnacious'
Q. He looked pugnacious? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that all he did? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the police officer did not interfere? A. Never alid a
word.
Q. Because he looked pugnacious? A. It seems to me, that
a man in the official capacity of a watcher, if anyone comes in
and abuses him, it is the officer's place to give him protection.
Q. He did not mnke any move toward you? A. Wrell- 
Q. He did not strike you? A. No, sir; but abused me.




92


Q. Was that all he said, that he had a damned good notion
to break your jaw? A. He threatened me.
Q. Who were the inspectors of election in the third election
district of the Tenth Assembly district in the last election?
A. The Republican inspector was a man by the name of James
W. Lacher.
Q. Were any of the inspectors of election indicted during
the last election? A. I think there was one board.
Q. Was this the board? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you a witness before the grand jury? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever been a witness before any tribunal, except
tis, with reference to the election last year t A. No, sir.
By Mr. Cantor:
Q. What is your business?  A. Government employe.
Q. Federal officeholder? A. Yes, sir.
Q Appointed by Republican administration? A. Yes. sir; an
holdover.
Q. Still hold over? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What is the office? W. United States gauger.
By Mr. Lexow:
Q How far were the police away from you in the fourteenth
district? A. As near as you are to me.
Q. Could he see or was there any obstacle between him aad
where you sat; could he see plainly what was being done? A. I
could see what he was doing, and had every reason to believe
that he could see what was being done to me; there was nothing
between us.
By Mr. Nicoll:      -
Q. Did you notice that he looked at the interference? A. ie
couldn't have helped but seeing it, when I called his attention to
it certainly twice and possibly three or four times.
Q. After you called his attention to it, did you see that he
noticed it, or saw it; was he looking at them? A. I was paying
more attention to the count, and watching the ballots as they
passed from one inpector to the other.
Q. And you say this occurred for half an hour? A. Yes,:sir.
Q How often did you call his aitention to it? A. Oertainly.,twiee, possibly three or four times.




98


Q. Did he 'do anything a9t all? A. No, dir; hle said ~e eouldn't
see that anybody was interfering with me, and I told him I felt
the int2erferenoe.
Q. And the Interference continued as much after your first
applioation to the officer to stop it; continued just the same atter
ward? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Cantor:
Q. But you were stl watching the oomt?
1By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. As well as you oould? A.Yes, sir.
By Mr. O'COonnor:
Q. Then the point of your complaint is that the Republican
watcher or Republican citizens attending the polls on election
day here, in trying. to discharge their duties, received no 3lfie'iai
protection f rom the police force either from insults or threats4
A. That is It; furthermore, I claim that if the police department,
If we had two Republican cnmmissioners and two Democratic,
or one and one, as the case might be, that the police would not
be so much afraid of Parnimany Hal.
By Mr,. Bradley:
Q During the whole proceedings of the election while the ballots were received, and while the canvass was going on, did yoa
see any policeman perform any act or deed that you considered
was contrary to law? A. No, sir; they were all si'n' ot omisslon, not oo~nmiSIOLn.
John J. Boyhan, being celled as a witness, by Mr. Sutherland
In behalf of the committee, being sworn by Mr. Lexow, testified
gw follows:
By Mr. Sutherland:
QWhere do you reside? W. Twh o hndred and forty-two Post
Twenty-eighth street
Q. What Assembly district is that? A. Twelfth Assembly
di-strict.
Q. What is the number of the election district? A. Seventh.
Q. Were you at the polling place last election day, last fall?
A. No, silr.
Q Did you vote last fall? A. Yes, sir.




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Q. Then yor were at the polling place when you voted? A.
Sure; before we go any further, what I wanted to tell is a matter
that occurred in November, 1891.
Q. Did you vote at the same place the election before last?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many years successively have you voted in that same
place? A. Four years.
Q. You are acquainted with the police officers stationed in that
vicinity, you know them when you see th.em? A. I know them
by sight.
Q. D-; you know  the Republican voters in that district?
A. Pretty well.
By Mr. O'Connor:
Q. What is this district you speak of, in November, 191?
A. It was then the Fourteenth Assembly district and thirtythird election district
Q. (By Mr. Sutherland.) Tell the committee what you saw with
regard to the conduct of the police in that district? A. I took
no hand whatever in politics more than voting, but I was standing on the corner of Twenty-seventh street and Third avenue
about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and there was quite a
commotion in the polling place.
Q. How far were you from the polling place? A. About 50
feet, and I went over to see what was the matter, but in the
meantime I had been talking with the man who had the box
there, and he said there was scratching there all day, men,
scratching names and the captain had kicked against it, but it
was no use they would do it anyway, so the marshal sent for the
chief marshal, Captain Coleman, and he came there in a carriage
about quarter-past 3, and he went in and ordered the officer there
to clear the room.
Q. Where were you when that order was made? A. Right outside.
Q. Could you hear it?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell us everything you heard and saw? A. The exact lan.
guage I could not tell; the captain again went in and wanted
to know all the men that were in that room that hadn't a right
there should leave, and there was quite a number of workers
there of the other side and a very few of the Republicans who
just looked on and said nothing; he turned to the police officer
standing at the door and he said, "I demand you to clear the
room," and the officer never said anything; he spoke himself and
said, "I demand you in the name of the United States law to get
out of this room," and they would not answer him; he said to the




officer, "Will you do as T say?" the officer said, a Who are you? 
he said, ".I am chief United States marshal;" the-officer said,
"I can not do it;" he said, "I don't see where your law comes
in;" well, he said, " Don't you know these men are going against.
the law in scratching in the first place; isn't that against the
law?" he said,"I don't see it;" he said, "There they are, and
there is a little square hole there;" there is a kind of saloon next
door, where the men were standing inside, with their books,
scratching names; he said, "There they are;" he said, "That is
none of my business," and he said " it is against the law;" the outcome was that Captain 06leman went out on the sidewalk and
this gang followed him and said, "What are you; you are a
captain in the Sixty-ninth regiment, but you can not scare us;
we will do as we like around here;" and they pushed and jostled
him and he had to get into a carriage and drive off; the oficer sat
there laughing.
Q. How many officers? A. One.
Q. Was there anything else that you saw there? A. That is
all. /
Q. Is -there any other occurrences within your lnowledge,
except that which you have related? A. That is the only thing.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Was this Captain Hugh Coleman? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is your business? A. Machinist.
Q. And in politics you are a Republican? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Connected with the Milholland organization?
Mr. O'Conmor.-What is the pertinency of questions of this
kind?
Mr. Nicoll.-To show the political bias of the witness.
Mr. Lexow.-I don't think the inquiry is proper.
Mr. Cantor.-What objection can there be to it?
Mr. Nicoll.- Why should there be the slightest objection in that
respect; a witness connected with one political organization
might look at facts in one way and a witness connected with
another political faction might look at them in another.
Mr. O'Connor.-We will assume that he has all the political
bias that any man in his position would-have, that he is a
Republican; I ask the chairman to rule that it is irrelevant.
Mr. Lexow.-I have so ruled.
Mr. Oantor.-Without consultation with the committee, the
chairman has no right to decide this question without conferring
with the committee; he is not sitting here as presiding judge, to
dispose of these things according to his own will.




Mr. texow.-After consultation with the committee I exclude
the questiotn
Mr. Cantor. —The committee is not unanimous,
Mr. Lexow.-I exclude the question.
Mr. Nicoll.-Does the committee forbid me now to make any
division of the Republican factions?
Mr. Leiow.- The committee decides that you can inquire as to
whether or not the witness belongs to one or the other political
party, but as to whether the witness belongs to this or that
wing or faction of the party does not seem to be relevant to this
ease.
Mr. Nicoll. ---May I not ask him if he belongs to Tammany
Hall, or the Independent Democracy, or the German Democracy?
Mr. Lexow.-We will come to a conclusion on that subject
when we reach that point.
Mr. Cantor. —On the Fassett committee they were allowed to
ask questions of that kind.
Mr. Nicoll. ---I never heard them refuse it before in my life.
Mr. Lexow.- This is one of your experiences, then, Mr. NicolL
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You are a regular Republican, are you not? A. I am
Q. And have you always been so? A. I have.
Q. How old are you? A. Twenty-five.
Q. And how many presidential elections have you voted? A.
One.
Q. At how many elections have you voted? A. Four.
Q. Did you vote in 1893? A. I did.
Q. You did not see any interference by the police with the
exercise of the right of suffrage then? A. I did not make it my
business to look.
Q. You did not see any? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you vote in 1892? A. I did.
Q. Did.you see any interference by the police with the right
of suffrage in 1892? A. No, sir.
Q. You have to go back to 1891, to this experience of Captain
Coleman, before you can find any fault with the conduct of the
police, so far as your observation goes? A. Yes, sir.
James G. McMurray, called as a witness in behalf of the committee, sworn by Mr. Lexow, examined by Mr. Sutherland, testilfed as follows:
Q. Where do you reside? A. No. 438 Fourth avenue.
Q. What election district is that and in what Assembly district? A. The Eleventh Assembly district and fourth election
distriet.




97


Q. How' long have you resided there? 'A. About 19 yea.rs.
Q. You are a property holder? A. Not in the city of New
y'ork; outside of the city.
Q. You are the owner of property? A. Yes, sir.        [
Q. A responsible person? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know a man by the name of Decker? A. I do.
Q. Where does he reside? A. No. 438 Fourth avenue.
Q. And he has resided and voted from that place for how long?
A. He has resided there for the past three years, voted there
during the year 1891 and 1892, registered during the year 1893,
but was not permitted to vote through an arrest.
Q. In 1893, did he sustain any official relation to the election
as you understood it? was he one of the watchers? A. Yes, sir;
he was the Republican captain of that election district, having
been appointed as such and acting as such.
Q. When did you learn of his arrest? A. I was in the polling
place to cast my vote as early as 10 minutes after 6 in the
morning, and then requested Mr. Decker to step behind me and
cast his vote, which he attempted to do.
Q. Were you there when the arrest was made? A. I was
present when the arrest took place, and participated in what
occurred at the time.
Q. Tell us who made the arrest and all that took place? A
When his name was announced, the police officer who was present stepped up to him and tapped him on the shoulder and said
he lad a warrant for his arrest; I protested strongly at the time
against the officer interfering until the inspectors would first
swear in and take his vote and then it was his duty to arrest
him or convey him to the station-house; the police officer did not
interpret the law in that way, and so stated, but upon arguing
with the inspector they finally canvassed the matter among
themselves and.decided by a vote of two Democrats to one Republican that the man should not be permitted to vote; this was
done, notwithstanding the strong and vigorous protest made by
nlywelf and the Republican inspector of election; the police officer
in the meantime while the discussion was going on interfered
several times and on one occasion taking hold of the man and
saying "come along with me."
Q. This man Decker? A. Of this man whom he attempted to
arrest; I protested against it and told the officer he must not
take the man away until the inspectors had decided, and the
Tammany captain who was also present, he insisted on it several
times.
Q Insisted on what? A. Arresting him, taking him right
away to the station house, and everytime he did so the officer
L.       1




98


would make an attempt to convey the man or to take him out of
the polling place and finally the officer took him, after the board
decided his vote could not be sworn in or deposited, took him
away without hiS voting and took him to the station-house; I
accompanied him there and offered to go on his bail bond; it was
a custom for me for many years past,
Q. 'To whom did you male this offer? A. To the sergeant in
charge of the police station.
Q. And as you understood, he had authority to accept bail?
A. I took it for granted, because I have many times; and the bail
was refused; to show the authority of the sergeant in charge of
the station-house, on the evening of the same day, which was
election day, I was summoned by some friend to appear at +he
station-house and go bail for somebody who had been arrested
for some petty little offense, and I went to the station-house, and
my bail bond was accepted immediately.
Q. By whom? A. By the sergeant in charge, without any
question or any hesitation, and the man was permitted to (,o out
on bail, while in the morning in the political sense, bail was
refused.
Q. Have you known of other instances where sergeants in
charge accept bail? A. I have frequently gone on ball bonds In
the same station-house.
Q. And before the same sergeant? A. I can not say before
the same sergeant; I think not.
Q. When you offered bail before this sergeant for this Republican captain, what happened? A. Simply said, "I can not take
your bail, alderman, I can not do it."
Q. Did he say why? A. I asked him why; he said, "Why, I
believe this man has committed an offense which is not bailable,
and I can not take your bail;" I said, " That settles it, does it? 
he said, "Yes," and I said, "Good day."
Q. 'What offense  did he say the man had committed that was
not ballable? A. He knew there was a warrant for his arrest
placed in his hands by the police officer; the police officer done
his duty when the man was there.
Q. What offense did he say the man had committed that was
not bailable? A. That he voted illegally, or at least registered
unlawfully from the house.
Q. That was the offense that was claimed? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you say that this man had for two years previous to
that voted from the same house? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was your house? A. Yes, sir; and this was the third
time in succession, three successive years, that he had registered
from that house.




99
Q. And you had personal knowledge that he was a voter from
that house? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this sergeant was acquainted with you; he called you
alderman? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Recognized the fact that you were ex-Alderman McMurray?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But declined to take your bail? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any further talk between you and the officer oc
this subject, the same day? A. The officer, on the way to the
station-house, informed me confidentially that he had also two
other warrants in his possession, and advised me not to allow
the two men for whom he had warrants in his possession or in his
pocket, to vote, one of whom was the Republioan inspector of
election; I thought his advice was very good under the circumstances, because if the men were permitted first to cast their
votes, the men would be undoubtedly willing to be arrested afterward; I talked to both the men for whom warrants were issued,
and they were both willing to swear in their votes, provided their
votes were taken, and then submit to arrest afterward, notwithstanding the fact that this man, Decker, was in the station-houne,
and would not be allowed to go out.
Q. You accompanied the officer, with Decker, to the statiohouse? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And saw him locked up? A. Yes, sir; I did.
Q. How long after that was it before he was released? A.
About five days.
Q. Released on bail? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who furnished bail? A. One of my friends on the avenue;
the delay was occasioned through inadvertence on my part
Q. You had this conversation with the officer about the Republican inspector of election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And some other Republican? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was this Republican inspector of election at the
time you had conversation 'with the officer T A. Performing his
duty as Republican inspector of elections
Q. Receiving ballots? A. Yes, sir.
Q. From Republicans and Democrats alike? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the charge against him was that he was not a resident
of that district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this officer informed you that if he attempted to vote
he would be arrested? A. Yes, sir.
Q. But if he did not attempt to vote, he could go on serving a
inspector? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Without interference? A. He performed his duties all the
day long; although he was anxious to make the attempt, although
he would be arrested, but I did not like the idea of the board




100 
remaInng two Democrats and no Republicans, without any one
to represent our interests there.
Q Because of that advice given you by the police officer, you
advisfd the inspector of election representing the Republicans to
refrain from voting that day, in order that the Republicans might
have one inspector on duty until the close of the polls and com)ledion of the canvass? A. Yes, sir; in the case of the other man,
my advice was probably the same to him, because he was a man
in my employ, and I hated to have another man in my employ
arrested, and have my business neglected.
Q. And was Decker a man in your employ? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. O(Connor. — What became of this charge?
Q. Have you ever heard of this charge against Mr. Decker
since? A. Never heard of the case since, and don't know anything about it; the man is simply out on bail, and that is th?
end of it.
Q. He is still in your employ? A. Yes, sir; on and off.
Q. Never heard that he has ever been indicted? A. I believe
he has been indicted and I believe this is the gentleman here
who was the indicting officer.
Q. And you never heard of the ease being tried?  A. No, sir;
never tried.
Mr. Niooll.- I will make a note of it now.
Witness.- I wish you would, my friend, and in connection with
this matter, I would like to get a little information, too, another
matter I would like to learn at the same time, if you will allow
iae; it appears that the grand jury, two weeks before election,
brought in a bill of indictment against myself for not residing
in the house where I reside; my name appeared among the list
of some hundreds of others who were indicted at the time; one of
the members of the grand jury hearing my name mentioned, said
to the foreman, "WTly, if that is ex-Alderman McMiurray, I am
personally acquainted with him, and in his case there is some
mistake," and he said to the foreman, "If you will allow this
matter to rest over for one day, I will go and see McMurray ani
endeavor to find out the true state of the case; he came to me
and made that statement, and I then informed him that I had
always lived there, or for 19 years lived in that district
and did business there, and he so reported to the foreman of the
grand jury, and I never heard of the case since; whether I was
indicted or not I don't know.
Q. But you have never been arraigned? A. No, sic
By Mr. O'Connor:
Q. When was this?    A. Last October, and    two weeks
prior to election, and in connection with that case, I miht
add that peihaps other gentlemen for whom warrants were
issued might be indicted upon this same charge.




101 '


By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. They indicted a great many? A. Yes, sir.
Q. But this was not the grand jury that investigated the eItp
tion frauds? A. It was the October jury; it must have Ibea
the October grand jury.,  
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You have resided in the district for 19 years, and Decker
has resided there three years? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They attempted to indict you and got a warrant out for
Decker? A. Yes, sir; and would have succeeded, if it had not
been for a friend who came to me and learnt the true facts of the
case and reported back to the foreman.
Q. Is there anything else in connection with the police or the
election? A. Except that they seemed to be under the influence
of Tammany Hall captains of the districts.
Mr. Nicoll.- Let him state facts.
Witness.- I could relate a fact of a watcher of the Good Government club, who had been recognized by the board of
inspectors -
Mr. Nicoll.-Did you see this?
Witness.- I saw this: I saw this gentleman from the Good
Government club present his credentials to the board, and they
looked at them and said he had a right to remain there during
the day; and during my absence the Tammany captain made a
strong protest to the police officer that this man had no right to
remain in that polling place.
By Mr. Cantor:
Q. Did you hear the protest? A. Not just at that momPntf but
the man came out right away and then I went inside and found
the case was just-as represented.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Was it afterward told you by him? A. He came outside
and said he had been.
By Mr. Cantor:
Q. What do you know, yourself, personally? A. This is what I
know exactly: I know of my own knowledge that the man was
driven from the place, because I accompanied him inside.
0. You went outside? A. I accompanied him inside and told
the police officer that he had a right to remain there, and after I




102


siowed him the law in regard to the case, lie permitted him to
remain there, and the Good Government man remained there all
Sry.
By Mr. Sutherland:
'. But it was only after you went in and protested with the
oficer? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Cantor:
Q. When they became convinced that you were right, by the
aw, he was allowed to remain there? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. And they were convinced by the forcible arguments presented by you? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Cantor:
Q. You mean by the law? A. Yes, sir. '
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Alderman McMurray, you do not find any fault with the
police officer for having the warrant? A. Not a bit, it was his
duty.
Q. If the warrant was given to him, it was his duty to have it
executed? A. It was his duty to execute it in the proper way.
Q. Don't you know what the proper way is? A. I do.
Q. To execute it forthwith? A. No, sir; not exactly.
Q. Did you aver read the rules of the police department in this
city? A. I don't call to mind perhaps what you have in view.
Q. Have you ever seen a copy of the rules of the police department? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you it in your library? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you sit up nights reading it? A. Not that particular
book.
Q. Let me show you that rule, rule 401 (Mr. Nicoll reads said
rale)? A. I will grant you that is the rules applicable to policemen, but the laws of the State of New York allow certain
privileges to the inspectors of election and to citizens who present
themselves to vote, and in this case this man presented himelf to vote-I have seen cases of this kind, when the man's
vote was challenged, when he was willing to swear in his vote,
and then his arrest followed, and in this case, I insisted upon
the same mode of procedure.
Q. When were you alderman? A. Five years ago
Q. Do you find any fault with the police sergeant for not
taking bail? A. No, sir.




Q. You know he has no power to take ball in tie ease of a
felony? A. This is not a felony.
Mr. O'0onnor.-When was it made a felony?
Mr. Cantor.-False registration is a felony.
A. I did not understand that false registration was exactly a
felony.
Q. You know a police sergeant has no power to take bail in
felony cases?
Mr. O'Connor:- It is entirely unnecessary to argue the law.
By Mr. Bradley:
Q. You say that the policeman arrested this man, although you
objected? A. He did.
Q. And the sergeant refused bail, when you made applicationt
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you make any complaint to the proper authorities
against either policeman or sergeant? A. No, sir; I did not.
F. H. Wolfertz, called as a witness in behalf of the committee,
sworn by Mr. Lexow, and examined by Mr. Sutherland, tstified
as follows:
Q. Where do you now reside? A. In Brooklyn.
Q. How long have you resided there? A. Since last November
Q. Where did you reside prior to last November? A. In Siiteenth street, New York city.
Q. How long did you reside in Sixteenth street, New York cityt
A. About a year and a half.
Q. Did you vote from that place last fall? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was the number of your election district? A
Forty-third election district of the Tenth Assembly district.
Q. What time in the day did you cast your vote? A. Early is
the morning.
Q. About what hour? A. About 7 o'clock. 
Q. Any policemen there? A. Yes, sir; there were two.
Q. Anything happen? A. Yes, sir; I was watcher and chalenger of that election district; in the afternoon, about 2
minutes past 3, I was in the polling place, and a man came in
and wanted to vote under the name of Thomas Bulger, and I:
seen the man coming in the booth and I challenged him, the
vote, but he folded his tickets together to cast them, and they all
insisted on the mai voting, and the chairman went to take his
tickets, and without swearing him in, and I called to the officer,
"lock that man up," so there was a fuss, and he would not take
him, and the other watcher called to the officer, "officer, arre s
that man.n




104


t
i
I
i
i
i
i
r? Q. Who did he point to? A. To the man who wanted to vote
and when he seen the two of us insist on the man being arrested,
he took him by the shoulder and walked him outside, and when
he got him there, he walked alongside of him, and he took him
up as far as the corner of Eighteenth street and First avenue.
Q. Did you go with him? A. Yes, sir-which is only about
a block and a quarter away from him and he let the man run
down Eighteenth street; I said, " Officer, there goes your prisoner,"
but he pays no attention to his prisoner but runs up First avenue
toward Nineteenth street.
Q In the opposite direction? A. Yes, sir; when he came back
I said to the oiicer, I said, "Please let me have your number,"
he gave me his number and he smiled at me; I went back to the
election place —the polling place and on the way to the
station-house-I went to the station-house to make a charge
against the officer-on the way up to the station-house, had a
gang of Tammany heelers after me, and I got two cuts in the eye,
which closed it up.
Q. Did you make your complaint at the station-house? A.
Yes, sir; and they told me to go down before Inspector Williams
the next morning at 10 o'clock. 
Q. Dd you go down the next day at 10? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What happened there? A. Then the case was called up
for next week; the next week, it was %efore Commissioner
McLean; it was adjourned for a week; then when it was
adjourned, it came up again and the officer was not there, and
then tLey adjourned to 12, and afterward when it was adjourned
to 12 o'clock, the case came up and they did not make any decision, but the way I seen in the papers, the case was dismissed.
Q. Is the same man on the force yet? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So far as you know, nothing has been done to him? A. No,
sir.
Q. You found it uncomfortable to live there and went over to
Brooklyn? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cantor.- The witness has not said he found it uncomfortable to live there.
Q. What was the reason you moved to Brooklyn? A. I
heard: "Wolfer-tz, you better get out of there for a while, or the
police will kill you," and there has been threats that they were
laying for me.
By Mrr. Cantor. —How long did you continue to live at this
place after election? A. I moved about the last of November.
Q. Where did you move to in Brooklyn? A. Atlantic avenue.
Q. What is your business? A. Nickel-plater, polisher,
0. Where are you employed? A. Elizabeth street.
Q. In New York city? A. Yes, sir.




105. nd yon live in BRroo*klyn? AN. Yes, sir.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q.Did you testify before the police board? A,. 'Yes, sir; I diLl
By Mr. 01olhn-or:
Q. When this man came to cast his vote you objected on whAr
ground? A. He was voting on another fellow's name; he wasnot Thomas Bulger.
Q. You knew he was not Thomas Bulger? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Finally the officer did take him? A. Yes, sir; took Minth
down to the corner, and the prisoner ran away from him, and
while the prisoner was going down Eighteenth street, I saiJ:.
"Officer, there goes your prisoner," and he paiid no attention to
me but went in an opposite direction.
By Mr. Oa~ntor:
Q. Was the Republican his~peet'w present at the time you
challenged him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He made no protest against this man voting? A. He cou id
not sey anything.
QHle did not say anything? A. No, sir.
By Mr. Lexow:
Q. Why couldn't he say anything?. A. Before he had time -to
sqy anvkhing, the chairman had the tickets, and I said to the
officer, "Arrest this man."
Q. Put the tickets in the lxillot-box~es? A. T don't.. knew what
became of the tickets; in the meantime, while the chairman had
the lickets in. his powsesion, I had to call upon the protectiotn td
the other oficer to get me away from a gang of Tamimany heelers
who had ine by the throat.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q.Where did that take place? A.Tn the polling place.
Q.You did, not tell us about that before; how many people
were in the polling place when you made this protest against
this man voting under the name of Bulger? A. The two Deimocra-tice inspectors; Republican inspector, ballot clerks, poll clerk,ami two policemen.
Q. How many other men around there? A. Nine or 10.
Q. These nine or 10 pitched on you? A. Yes, sir; grabbed me
by the throat.
Q. Where were the policemen? A. All standing inuside,
Q. How far from you? A., Alongside of m~e
k~ ]~,    14




106
- - - -. "~  '  - ^ "l-. - --...- - ^ -   *  *  _   ^   ^   ^   ^......,.-  < -:*T~t':<*>..   '  l
Q. Right next to you? 1. Say here was me (pointing to one
tf the: committee), there was the prisoner; I was standing here,
and the other policeman was standing there.
Q. Within three or four feet of you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In whose name did this man offer to vote? A. Thomas
Plulger's.
Q. Were you personally acquainted with Thomas Bulger? A.
DIwas talking to him about 15 minutes before that
Q. You knew him personally? A. Yes, sir.,. How long have you known him? A. From child up.
~. You knew that this man who was offering to vote in the
name of Thomas Bulger was not Thomas Bulger? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen that man before? A. Never.
Q. He was a stranger to you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Never saw him in the neighborhood? A. No, sir.
Q. You were there as a Republican watcher? A. Yes, sir.
Q. With proper credentials? A. Yes, sir.
Q. On duty all day long? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Under the law? A. Yes, sir.
Q. These two policemen were in the same room? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They heard this man offer to vote under the name of Thomas
Bulger? A Yes, sir.
Q. And you objected? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you say? A. I said, "I object to that vote; that
is not Thomas Bulger."
Q. What became of the votes, the tickets? A. The tickets, theohairman took them in his hands.
Q. At that time? A. Yes, sir.
Q Wmhat happened to you? A. The officer, while he was going
out with his prisoner, the gang had hold of me by the neck and
pulled me from one side to the other.
Q. Where was the officer when that was going on? A. The
other officer was inside.
Q. How far from you? A. Alongside of me; near.
Q. Did he see what those men were doing to you? A. Yes,
sir; he did.
Q. Did he do anything to protect you from them? A. I said
to him, "Officer, I ask your protection," and then he said to the
men, " While he asks for protection, I got to give it to him now."
Q. What did he do? A. He said, "Let that man alone now,
and let him go."
Q. He saw what was going on without interfering until you
spoke to him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were being ejected from the room by this crowdt!. Yes, si,.                          -




107
Q. And you followed to the station-house, the offier aia
prisoner? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you make any complaint in regard to the assault? A.,es, sir.
Q. W.hen and where did you make your complaint? A. I
demanded the name of the man who struck me, and had him
arrested..Q Before whom was he carried?    A. To the Fifty-seventk
street court, and then it was sent to, I don't know the name of
the justice there, but it was sent down to Special Session, and
at Specia Sessions, he was discharged.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. At Special Sessions you testified? A Yes, sir.
Q. And he testified? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he was discharged? A. Yes, air.
James Johnson, a witness called in behalf of the conffmlttee
being duly sworn, and examined by Mr. Sutherland, testified as
follows:
Q. Where do you reside?    A. No. 336 East Twenty-fourth
street
Q. How long have you resided there? A. About five years
Q. What is your business? A. Steam and gasfitter.
Q. What election district and in what Assembly district Is
that? A. The twentieth electiof and Twelfth Assembly.
Q. You voted there last fall? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know policemen by sight, in that neighborhood? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Tell us what you saw, if anything, in regard to the conduct
of the police last election day? A. Gentlemen, what I saw last
election day is this: About half-past 3, one of the Tanmmany Hatl
captains in that election district approached a man outside of
the door, I was standing alongside of him, and he went deliberately in with the man; I stood alongside of him, until the man
got his ballots, and the gentleman went in the last booth, and
the officer was standing about two feet between the last booth
and the window.
Q. The police officer? A. Yes, sir; and he seen the two gentlemen come down, one gentleman go in the booth and the other
gentleman knelt down on his knees, took the ballots from -he
gentleman, when in the booths, and folded them, and this officer
looked out of the window, and smiled at me,. and the other officer
was standing six foot away from him; the man folded his.ballots




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for him and he came out, and I heard him say, "Go up and vote
this one, and hold it in your right hand."
Q. Who said this to him?  &. This Tammany Hall captain.
Q. How far was the policeman from him when ht said that?!A. About two feet
Q. What was it he said to him in regard to votes? A. "Take
this and vote this; hold this in your right hand."
Q. Did the policeman make any interference with that? A.
No, sir; only stood there and smiled at me.
Q. Was there anything else that you saw in that connection?
A. No, sir.
Q. The man voted that ticket that was given to him in that
way? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Did he wink as well as smile? A. He did not wink, but he
had a kind of downhearted smile.
Q. A kind of downhearted smile? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Bradley:
Q. Did you apply to the police oicer to arrest the man? A.
No, sir, forI was not interested in the case, only happening to
be standing there, and seen the thing go on.
By Mr. Cantor:
Q. This man you said was a Tammany Hall captain?. Yes,
sir.
Q. Do you know him personally? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know his name? A. Well, I don't know his name,
But I have spoken to him sinee.
Q. How do you know he was a Tammany Hall captain? A. His
captain, I know his name was Smith, the man who tried to get. the
leadership of the Twelfth Assembly district, and through him
talking one night in his saloon, I was informed that this young
fellow was supposed to be his assistant captain.
Q. Then he was only an assistant captain? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. But he was in charge? A. He was in charge of the twentieth
election distriet.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Are you in politics yourself? A.. No, sir.
Q. You are not connected with any political organization? AX
No, sir..




109
By Mr. Canto                     -
Q. Are you a member of any particular organization? A. No,
sir; a man brought a roll around for me to sign.
Q. And you did enroll? A. Yes, sir, I did; there were two of
them around, one was anti-machine Republican and the other
was the Commi'ttee of Thirty.
Q. Did you sign both enrollments? No, sir, I did not
IBy Mr. Lexow:
Q. You signed one enrollment? A. Yes, sir, T did, and
scratched my name before the gentleman went out when he told
me what it was.
Proceedings of the second meeting of the committee, Saturday,
March 10. 1894, at 10:30 a. m
Present-Senators Clarence Lexow, George W. Robertson,
Edmund O'Connor, Daniel Bradley and Jacob E. Cantor, of the
committee; William A. Sutherland, of counsel for the committee;
Delancey Nicoll, of counsel for the police board.
Otto Kempner, called as a witness by Mr. Sutherland, in behalf
of the committee, being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. At 82 Second avenue.
Q. And in what Assembly district is that? A. Seventli
Q. You have represented that district in the Legislature of the
State of New York? A. I have.
Q. And were you a candidate for election at the last election?
A. I was.
Q. How many other candidates were there that fall? A.
There were three or four.
Q. There was a Republican candidate, who received about how
many votes? A. About 1,900.
Q. There was a regular Democratic candidate? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He received how many votes? A. About 4,000.
Q. And you received how many? A. Three thousand two hundred and seventy-five.
Q. Three thousand two hundred and seventy-four? A. Three
thousand two hundred and seventy-five.
Q. You were a candidate by an independent nomination? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. You before had represented the regular Democratic organisation? A. Yes, sir.




110


Q. And had been a member of the Tammany organization for
how long? A. About a year.
Q. You may tell the committee what you know of the police
Interference with regard to your canvass last fall? A. I - on
a certain day in November, I believe it was the 5th of NovemberQ. And election day was what? A. Well, it must have beenelection day was the 7th; it might have been the 3d; I think it
was on the Thursday or Friday prior to the Tuesday on which
the election took place; on that day the police went through the
entire district, each policeman on his beat going from store to
storeMr. Nicoil.- One moment. 
Q. Let me suggest, if you please; I will ask you whether this
came to your attention in any way, and then subsequently I will
ask you to give your personal knowledge of the matter? A. That
came to my attention.
Mr. Nicoll. —I think all that ought to be stricken from the
record.
The Chairman.- Let the witness tell the story, and then let
us see what is to be done.
Mr. Nicoll.- Are you going to give all the hearsay evidence?
The Chairman.- Let him tell his story.
MIr. Nicoll.-Anything anybody told him?
The Chairman.-We will hear him; that is the ruling of the
cair.
Senator O'Connor.-It is not anything very important to find
out. The only point is, as the cross-examination develops, how
much of it is from personal knowledge.
Mr. Nicol.- I do not wish to cross-examine, and Mr. Kempner
Is a lawyer, and knows what is evidence.
The Chairman.-This committee will not consider in evidence
any improper testimony. This is not a trial where the usual rules
of evidence are to be observed. This is an investigation to see
whether the police power of the State of New York is properly
or improperly administered, and whether the evidence be hearsay or be such evidence as will stand the criticism of a lawyer
is unnecessary for us to consider at this point. We are not
bringing indictments against the police department We are
seeing what legislation is proper under certain developments, and
in order to ascertain that fact we must be governed, not by the
ordinary rules of evidence, but by such rules as we please to
impose upon the witnesses. Now, witness, continue.
Mr. Sutherland.- Will the committee allow me to sayMr. Nicoll.-W-ill the committee let their counsel say a, word
in my behalf?




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Mr. Sutherland — I desire to say to the committee further,
that if all the witnesses who were personally interfered with by
the police were now in the courtroom that have been subpoenaed,
and will be here, but if they were now here I should first put
them on the stand to give their personal knowledge of it; but
there are many things that Mr. Kempner knows personally, and
so interlaced with other facts that I thought it best to put him
on the stand, and we will substantiate it later on. We will have
the witness tell what he learned, and how he acted upon it, and
went to the police in regard to it.
Mr. NicolL-It is not evidence on which you would base any
conclusion?
The Chairman.-Certainly not; only according to how it is
eupplemnented by other evidence. That is already ruled upon,
and it stands
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You may proceed. A. The police went from store to store
and told the proprietorsMr. Nicoll.- Really, are you going to permit this witness?
Chairman Lexow.-This testimony has been ruled in as conm
petent  Those objections are simply embarrassing this committee, and this committee will not permit that. This witness will
testify without interruption, and if incompetent and improper evidence is admitted, it will be stricken out on your motion.
Mr. Nicoll. —What I want to know is this: This is a different
proposition from the one we made before. Before it was proposed to have Mr. Kempner state what he learned. He is about
to repeat conversation which he said took place between police
officers and saloon-keepers. Are you going to allow that?
The Witness — Which I know from my own personal knowledge; which the proprietor told me was so.
Chairman Lexow.-If the line of evidence I have laid down is
improper, an appeal can he taken to the committee, and if the
committee overrules me, that line will not be permitted; but when
the chair has made a ruling, and when no appeal has been taken
by the committee from that ruling, it will stand as law until
the committee overrules't; therefore the witness will go on.
The Witness.-They told the proprietors to take down the
lithographs and pasters announcing our meetings.
Q. The lithographs were what? A. Represented my humble
self.
Q. That is, your portrait? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Those lithograph portraits were in what position?:.
They were displayed in the show windows




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Q. That is, facing the street? A. Facing the street; the gentlemen, or friends, in the district, came to our headquarters to
notify us of what was being done, some telling us of this crusade
that is being made by the police; others running to find out
whether that meant that I had withdrawn from the race; we
held a meeting that evening, which had been previously
announced.
Q. That is, a public meeting? A. A public meeting.
Q. To be addressed by speakers? A. To be addressed by
speakers, in which the speakers took occasion to mention what
happened during the day, and denounced the action of the police
publicly, with the view of getting an investigation, if possible,
on the part of the police commissioners; the next morning I
determined on going through the district, with a view of ascertaining what truth there was in the general belief that the police
had interfered in the election; I had hardly gone around the
corner from my house when, standing in front of a —coming in
front of a barber shop, I noticed two policemen, or rather two
gentlemen in citizens clothes, whose faces I recognized as being
members of the police force-noticed them coming out of a
barber shop owned by F. Soavatti, of 347 Fifth street
Q. That was in your Assembly district? A. Yes, sir; by the
way it is a polling place; J immediately entered as they came
oul, and noticed the proprietor folding my lithograph in his
hand; T asked himQ. Where had that been before that? A. It had been in the
window posted up, 1 know it had been in the window, because
I had seen it there; 1 asked the proprietor, "did those two gentlemen ask you to take that down? " " They did; " I ran out and
followe.l them, crossing First avenue until they got in front of
Spellmeyer's butter and egg store, which is 405 Fifth street.
Q. That is also in your Assembly district? A. Also; I stood
in front of the store and watched the lithograph disappear from
that window.
Q. Before that the lithograph had been displayed? A. Had
been there; these two men came out, faced me, I faced them:
they recognized me and they rushed off, that is, they walked on,
and never entered another store; I went in and spoke to Mr. Stollmeyer, and spoke to him personally and aeked lwhat they wanted
in there, and he told me they ordered him to take down the lithograph; I at once proceeded to police headquarters, told Superintendent Byrnes of what I had witnessed, and what was being
done in the district; he sent forQ. About when did you write him a letter; before that, or after
that? A. No, after that; he told me that he would investigate,




113
and at once sent for the captain; he asked the captain if he knew
anything, but as the captain has always been a passive captain,
and the active captain was the Tammany district leader, he
probably was right in saying he knew nothing at all about it;
Superintendent Byrnes instructed him as to his duties, and that
of the men under his care; and told me that I should formulate
my charges in writing and he would present them to the police
commissioners; I wrote Superintendent Byrnes a letter, and I
have a copy of that 
Q. Who was this captain that you referred to? A. Captain
Dougherty.
Q. Is he the nominal captain or the actual captain you referred
to? A. He is the actual captain of the district  (Witness offers
counsel letter.)
Q. You may keep it and read it; who was the Tammany captain you refer to? A. Senator George F. Reesch.
Q. You wrote this letter to Superintendent Byrnes? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. You may read the letter (the witnes reads as follows):
"November 6, 1893.
Supt Byrnes:
"Dear Sir. —pavid J. Mallon and John Hock, two ward detectives attached to the Fourteenth precinct police station and
another officer, whose name has not yet been ascertained, are
hereby accused of intimidating storekeepers in the Seventi
Assembly district, and of interfering with a public election in the
interest of the Tammany Hall candidates. They have made a
tour of the district, going from store to store and ordering that
the pictures of Assembly candidate Otto Kempner be taken
down. They claim to be carrying out the commands of their
captain.
"Detective Mallon has entered the following places, and in a
most offensive manner, commanded said pictures to be removed:
403, 409, 417, 421, 423, 435, 516 Fifth street and 435 Sixth street.
"Detective Hock end another officer have been seen to enter,
for the same purpose, 300, 309, 321, 347 and 405 Fifth street.
Mallon also entered 317 Fifth s-reet and behaved arrogantly and
abusively toward the proprietor in the presence of his customers."
Q. Did you see, or hear from Superintend-tt Byrnes in response
to that? A. Yes, sir; I went to see him and have a second conference in which heQ. When was that in reference to the date of your letter?
i. I think it was the day. after.
L.       15




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Q. The day after; very well? AL. In which he-he sent for
'these two detectives, and have me repeat my statements in their
presence; they denied point blank the truth of the charges.
Q. Then what? A. Of course after the election, I believe I had
another conference with the superintendent and he told me
all he could do in the matter was to present the charges to the
commissioners; I then, on further reflection, wrote the superintendent a letter, that I concluded not to press the charges.
Q. Have you that with you; well, the letter will speak for itself;
you may read it if you please?  A. Letter to Superintendent
Byrnes in regard to the election.
Q. What is the date? A. November 9th: "In reference to the
charges brought by me against Ward Detectives Hock and
Mallon, permit me to say, that since you have no authority to
try and punish them yourself, I do not feel warranted in proceeding further in the matter. A trial before the police board
would be a perfect farce.  These two men had undoubtedly
received orders from a power outside the police department  The
same power can not only shield them from the consequence of
their acts, but, also, reward them for their transgressions with
promotion. They brazenly lied to you when they denied my.accusations, but as they are assured of protection from a higher
power, they need not fear or respect their superintendent. So
long as our municipal departments are run by Boss Croker, they
will be regarded as adjuncts of a political organization, and will
be used to perpetuate its power. A police commission controlled
by such influence is incapable of rendering justice."
Q. Did you receive any answer from that communication? A.
I did not, sir.
0. Either personally or by letter. A. No, sir.. Have you any other information within your own knowledge of
-police interference? A. To complete my statement, with regard
to Detectives Mallon and Hock, I wish to say that they went the
rounds after the regular policeman on his beat had completed
the job, in order to see how perfectly the work was done, and
wherever they found that the citizens had disobeyed the commands of the policeman they entered and commanded the work
to be done.
Q. The first visit was by the policeman in uniform? A. Yes,
Sir.
Q. The second was by these men in citizen's dress? A. And,
furthermore, on the afternoon when this police outrage was perpetrated and the news came to us at headquarters, I requested
the secretary to go through the district and see if he might not
aoone upon some policemen in the act of doing that; as he




115


waIEed through Fourth street, sure enough he noticed a police
man going from store to store.
Q And is there anything further? A..N
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Mr. Nicoll.-I move that the committee expunge from the
record all of the evidence that is hearsay, that is, all the evidence which the witness testified to concerning conversations at
which he was not present - facts and things which he did not see
or hear.
Mr. Sutherland.- Let me suggest to the committee that perhaps that motion might be made after I finished the evidence on
this subject. I expect to supplement it by witnesses that haye
been subpoenaed.
Chairman Lexow.-Motion denied at any rate.    You may
renew your motion.
Q. Did you yourself see any police officer taking down one of
your lithographs? A. I have stated that I have noticed the work
done in the two instances that I have cited
Q. Actually taking it down themselves? A. Not themselves;
I did not say that they did themselves.
Q. That is the question I asked you, whether or not you yourself saw any police officer-  A. I did not see them pull down
the lithographs themselves.
Q. How many lithographs had you? A. Oh, there was, I think,
1,500 printed.
Q. What waS the object of the lithographs? A. It is the custom of this city to display pictures of candidates; I,remember
seeing the handsome face of the district attorney some time ago.
Q. Thank you, sir; and you had a lithograph of your handsome face for the purpose of getting votes, didn't you? A. Not
because of my attractiveness, but because the other fellow was
so much uglier, that probably I thought that might bring some
votes.                    t
Q. How many did you have, a thousand? A. I stated 1,500, I
believe, was the number printed; it is a large district.
Q. How many were put up? A. All of them.
Q. Well you had no right to put them up in any store, had
you? A. We did not put them up; the proprietors of their own
accord, friends of mine, wished to see me elected.
Q. It is entirely optional with the storekeeper whether he will
put a lithograph in or not? A. Entirely so.
Q. It is entirely optional whether he will take them down?
X. Yes, I suppose so.
Q. Suppose some of your supposed supporters changed their




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'minds, in the course of the canvass, he would have a right to
take your lithograph down, wouldn't he? A. I know of no law to
prevent him.
Q. Well is it not a fact in the places where the lithographs
were taken down, they were taken down because the storelkeepers had made up their mind to vote for some other candidates; isn't that the fact that they changed their attitude
-toward the candidate? A. I don't know of a single case; on
the contrary I know of cases where they were more determined
-than ever to vote for me after they were obliged to take down
-the lithographs.
Q. You had a pretty hot election in that district, didn't you?
A. I think so, yes, sir.
Q. Whenever you run it is generally a hot election, is it not?
A. I tried to make it very hot, sir.
Q. You used to run on the Tammany Hall ticket, didn't you?
A. I suppose it is accepted to be so.
Q. You made it hot for the opposition then, didn't you? A. I.always make it hot.
Q. And now you are running on the opposition ticket, and
you make it hot for Tammany Hall? A. Also.
Q. When did you first commence in politics? A. Well, I took
an interest in politics ever since I understood what was going on
'in the world.
Q. Well, I must assume that was at a very early date? A. Yes,
it was.
Q. When did you first join the Tammany Hail organization?
A. Oh. that was, I believe, in the year 1891.
Q. Were you a member of the old County Democracy organization? A. Never; it was the first political organization that I
actively joined. 
Q. Well, prior to 1891, what were your political connections?
A. Always Democratic.
Q. Always a Democrat? A. Always.
Q. But not associated with organizations until 1891? A. I
thinlk 1891.
Q. In 1891 you joined the Tammany Hall organization and
were nominated, were you not, for office, were you not, at the
same time? A. The same year; at least, I think I ran in 1892;
yes, 1892; the fall of 1892.
Q. What I mean to say is you never had joined a political
organization until you became nominated for office? A. No.
0. Your nomination and connection with the organization was
simultaieous? A. The nomination was effected the year after
my joining the Tammany organization.




117
Q. Now, yotu have, in the course of your public career, given a
good deal of study to the questions of municipal administration,
have you not? A. I have; some.
Q. You are the author, are you not, of several series of articles
attacking the existing administration, which have appeared in
different journals of the city? A. I am.
Q. And you are engaged in a political effort, according to your
viewe, to defeat the present political organization? A. I am.
Q. Yol are? A. I am, decidedly.
Q. And for that purpose you have formed an independent association of your own, have you not? A. No; we have now -we
are considered a part of the State Democracy of this county.
Q. You are considered a part of the State Democracy? A. The
organization of our district, to which I belong.
Q. Are you a member of the socalled Independent County organization? A. I am not; I have nothing to do with it.
t0. You know what that is? A. You mean the Independent
Ocunty organization?
Q. What? A. You mean the Independent County organization?
Q. I mean the organization recently organized by Judge Steckler. A. No, sir; I am not a member of that.
Q. Are you a member of the Grace-Fairchild State Democracy?
A. I have stated that our organization is a branch of the State
Democracy.
Mr. Sutherland. —If the committee please, I am extremely
interested in this examination myself, and have not interposed
an objection, trnsting that it would not be too long, but of course
if the counsel desires to go at great length in this sort of thing,
I must object, in the performance of my duty to the committeethe inquiry into this man's affiliations.
Mr. icoll. --- think I have exhausted that.
Mlr. Lexow.- On the question of bias, I think it is proper. On
the question of bias it is proper to show there are two organizations in this city.
Q. Have you studied the question of plice government or
administration in cities? A. Well, I have studied as far as I
could the method of our police.
Q. I am not speaking now of any little petty friction at the
time of an election or an undue expression of sympathy on the
part of a police officer; I am speaking generally of the association
or the control of a police department, by political, organizations;
have you studied that question as to whether or not a police
department should be independent of all organizations? A.
Wall, I don't understand your question; I have not made a special
study of police matters.   -—. — 




118


Q. Well, on the question of a commission of one political faith,
r a commission of divided faith? A. I have given some thought
on the subject; yes, sir.
Q. Express your thought on that subject? A. I believe the
politics ought to have nothing to do with police management.
Q. Well, as between a commission, all of one political faith, or
a commission of divided political faith? A. I don't believe in
any commission.
Chairman Lexow. —One moment. That is excluded. Any
opinion or judgment as an expert upon a question of that kind, as
a witness.   We unfortunately allowed that matter to be
interjeeted into the testimony yesterday. It was interjected
before it could be prevented by the committee. I do not think
an expert opinion will lead to any proper result in having this
committee frame a law.
Senator Cantor.-Is that the result of the deliberation of the
oanmittee, or is it your judgment?
The Chairman.- That is my judgment.
Senator Cantor.-I deny the right of the chairman to express
a judgment without conference with the committee.
Mr. Nicoll. —As I understand, the pfrpose of this committee
is to collect information for the purpose of framing some law in
relation to the government of the department. We have before
us a gentleman very active in New York politics, who has been
himself a legislator, and been a candidate on several occasions,
has written on municipal administration and given a great deal
of time and attention to the subject, has had personal experience;
would it not enlighten the committee greatly to have his views?
Senator 0' Connor.- It has not been ruled out.
The Cairman. —The judgment of the majority of this committee is that we want facts. We reach conclusions and form
opinions ourselves upon facts. We do not want the opinion of
witnesses
Senator Cantor.-  I do not understand the question is ruled
out.
The Chairman.-Yes, it is.
Mr.'Nicoll.-I had intended to ask permission of the chair t*
call certain witnesses own this very branch of the investigation.
Do I understand it is a positive and final ruling on the part of
the committee that they will not hear any witnesses upon the
questions-to give opinions upon the question of administering
the police department?
Chairman Lexow. — fr. Nicoll, if it is competent on this pro.
ceeding to hear opinions on the part of citizens of this city, upon
that question you might subpoena 1,000,000 people to be present




119
at this trial, and ask each onie -a resident of New York citywhat his judgment was on that question. What the committee
wants, and I simply speak for the majority of the committee now,
are the facts upon which this committee can proceed to form an
opinion and suggest legislation, and not the opinions of one or
other of the residents.
Mr. lNicoll. —Of course, I might call a million people, but, of
course, I would not do such a thing. I would select 10 or 15
who had given much time and attention to the study of the police
department For instance, Dr. Parkhurst and Mr. Kempner,
gentlemen who have devoted years to the study of this question.
Certainly, their opinions would be of more value than the opinions
of 900,000 who have not decided the question.
Senator Cantor.- I think it might be admitted. It can not do
any harm, if the committee desire to accept their judgment it
would not do any harm.
Chairman Lexow.-At this time the testimony will be
excluded. If afterward, on consultation of the committee, they
desire tb: admit it, we will admit it.
Mr. Sutherland.-Do any members of the committee desire to
ask Mr. Kempner any question?
Senator O'Connor.- I want to ask a single question.
Q. I understand you went around through the district after
you had received intimation that the police were engaged in this
kind of work, and you made personal examination yourself to
verify that information? A. I did.
Q. And any testimony you detailed here is the verification
you found on personal examination? A. Certainly.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. And you found this same condition throughout the entire
district? A. The entire district; I want to say, the next morning, when I began this personal investigation, the lithographs
had almost entirely disappeared from the entire district, where
I had seen them for a week steadily every day; they had, dis
appeared.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. Your attention was called to that fact? A. I saw this.
By Chairman Lexow:
-. Did you inquire in more than the instances you have mentioned as to the reasons of their removal - any specific instances?
I. Did I



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Q. Inquire? A. As to the reason of their removal? 
Q. Yes. A. I suppose the police gave no reasons except that
they were ordered toQ. The reason of the saloon-keeper or the barber, as the case
might have been, for the removal of your picture? A. I have
not heard of a single instance where they were removed in consequence of the change of mind of the proprietor.
Q. And how many instances have you personal knowledge that
they were removed because of police interference? A. All those
that I have referred to.
Q. Have you mentioned all you know of? A. All that I can
recollect. 
Mr. Sutherland.-If the committeb please, this gentleman will
need an interpreter, and Mr. Kempner can serve in that capacity
if there is nobody more suitable. He does not understand
German.
Chairman Lexow. —Is Mr. Kempner satisfactory to you?
Mr. Nicoll.- Certainly.
Mr. Kemnpne was then sworn as an interpreter, and the questions were put to him.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. What is your name? A. William topf
William Hopf, called as a witness by Mr. Sutherland, being
duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. What is your name? A. William HIopf. '
Q. Where do you reside? A. Four hundred and thirty-five
Sixth street.
Q. What is your business? A. I have a wine business
Q. How long have you lived there? A. Twenty years; I have
been a voter for 22 years; 20 years I resided where I now live.
Q. Do you know Otto Kempner, and for how long have you
known him? A. About five years.
Q. Did you have Mr. Kemnpner'e lithograph in your store window last fall? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long was it posted there before election day? A.
Probably eight days.
Q. Was it taken down? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why? A. When I was told to take it away.
Q. Who told you? A. He said the captain sent me; I should
do the captain a favor and put this bill away.




121
Q. You would do the captain a favor if you took the picture
away? A. Yes.
Q. Who told you that? A. He is a small man he is a detect
ive.
Q. What is his name? A. I don't know.
Q. He is the ward detective? A. I never have seen him
before.
Q. How long was that before election? A. I think it wasI am not sure; I think three or four days.
Q. Now, after he ordered you to take it down, what did you
do? A. I put it inside on the line.
Q. On the what? A. On the line -on the rope.,
Q. On a string? A. Yes, on a string.
Q. But took it away from the window? A. Yes, sir,
Q. But kept it up inside your store? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have any other pictures? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whose? A. In the store; in the window.
Q. Whose were they? A. Well, I got six; I got a double store;
I got six pictures in, and I say I put Mr. Kempner away, and I
say I will put this away, and I put all away; that was not right;
I take all down, and he came the evening again, and he says to
me, "What is the matter; what are you doing? you put the
pictures all in without Kempner;" and I said, "No."
Q. He told you to put the pictures back into the window without Kempner? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you told him you would not? A. No, he said-you
say, I put it away, and I put it away.
Q. What did he tell you to do then about Kempner's picture?
A. He says I should tear it, and I said, not; I say, I pay rent for
the store and I got a good right, I can put the pictures in my
store, but I wont, and he says, "Well, I fix you;" I said, "Well
if you can do it, you do it, that is all."
Q. Who was there when this was said? A. I and my wife.
Q. 'Did your wife say anything to this officer, this detective?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did she say to him? A, She said to him I paid the
rent here in my room and I can put pictures in what I like.
Q. What did he say to her? A. I said the same.
Q. What did the detective say to your wife? A. Yes; he was
very cross to her.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. She was very cross, do you gay? A. No; the man was very
erosa
HQ. He spoke roughly? A. Yes; he spcke very rough. 
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By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Now what did he say to you after you told him you paid
the rent and would put up the pictures if you liked? A. He
eaid, "I will fix you for that"
Q. Did he say anything in addition to that; anything besides?
A. No.
Q. He did not tell you how he would fix you, or did not say,
what he would do; just said: " I will fix you? " A. Yes
Q. Are there other stores near yours? A. Yes, sir.
Q. More stores around there? A. All stores.
Q. All stores around there; did the other stores have the
picture of Mr. Kempner in the window? A. They put them all
away.
Q. But they had been all there, and then tock them down? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Was it done the same day yours was done? A. Yes, all
the same day.
Cros-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You are a friend of Mr. Kempner, are you not? A. No, sir
Q. You are not a friend of his? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know him? A. I know him not before.
Q. Before when? A. Before I see him this morning.
Q. Never saw him before that day? A. No.
Q. You were a supporter of his in his last election, were you
not? A. No, sir.
Q. Weren't you-didn't you vote for Mr. Kempner? A. No,
Sir.
Q. Didn't vote for him? A. No, sir.
Q. Why then did you plut his lithograph up in your window,
and take it down (the witness did not appear to understand:he
question); why did you put it up? A. Because it is the custom;
all the people do it
Q. Where did you put it up? A. Out in the window.
Q. Why did you take it down? A. A man came and said I
must put it down; what can I do; I do it
Q. What did you care about that, whether the man told you
to take it down or not? A. He said it must go away; he came
twice again.
Q. It was your store, was it not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why did you take it down? A. Well, he said so.
Q. What difference did that make to you? A. That made
me a no difference.   -.....




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i Q. It made no difference? A. I put other pictures In my store hI
the window; it make no difference; if it is a right man I put it
in my window; I think he have a show at the same time as the
other man.
Q. Why did you take it down if he was a right man and
ought to have a show? * A. The captain said it to me.
Q. What did you care about that? A. Well, sure I care about
tiat.
Q. Where did you put it then? A. I?
Q. Yes; where did you put it? A. I hung it inside, in the
Ftore, in the room.
Q. Did it remain there until the election was over? A. Yea
By the Chairman:
Q. You have been asked why you took the picture down; now
just state in your own way what caused you to take the picture
down; what feeling you had that caused you to put the picture
down; were you afraid that youi' license would be taken away?
Senator Cantor.-That I object to; you should tesify as a
witness yourself.
The Witness — No.
Q. What were you afraid of? A. He said I did the captain a
favor, that is all.
Q. When he said that he would fix you what kind of a manner
did he have; how did he say it? A. I don't know.
Q. Just translate for me (the interpreter translated the que,
tion)? A. He was very impudent,
By Senator Bradley:
Q. How did you know this was the ward detective; how dl,
you come to know this man was a ward detective; had you ever
seen him before? A. I did not know him; but he said so.
Q. Did he speak to you in English or German? A. He spokl
to me in English.    L
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. He was not in uniform, was he- this man? A. No; he was
In citizen's clothes.
Q. Have you seen him since? A. Sir.
Conrad Mergler, called as a witness on behalf of the ooam
mittee, being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. No. 106 Seventh street'




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Q. Tn what election district is that? A. The second — I for
get, I think about the fifth.
Q. It is the same Assembly district as Mr. Kempner's?  A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Were you active last fall in this behalf? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you the captain in that district? A. No, sir, I was
in the second election district.
Q. Was Frank Kelley the Tanimany captain in that same eleotion district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see any persons whom you believed to be repeaters
brought in there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. By Frank Kelley? A. Yes, sir
Q(. Did the Republican inspector ask those repeaters any questions as to their right to vote? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cantor.-Would it not be better to have the witness
testify?
Mr. Sutherland.. —Ts there any objection to my putting leading
questions '
Chairman Lexow.-YouI can put leading questions up to a
certain point and then it would be better not to do so.
Mr. Nicoll.- It is a very bad habit for a lawyer; it gets him in
too loose ways
Mr. Sutherland. —I am obliged to you for the criticism. I am
aware that I am from the country, but I will get out the facts
just the same.
Q. You say that the Republican inspectors did put questions to
those men as to their qualifications? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, what occurred? A. About 2 o'clock in the afternoon
one of the Democratic inspectors said, "Frank, Mr. Kempner is
getting the best of you here;" and so Mr. Kelley stood there for
a second or two, and commenced to curse.
Q. He commenced to swear? A. Yes, sir; to swear and curse,
and he ran out, and it was not 10 minutes until he came in
again, and I called the Republican inspector's attention, and I
said, "Look out, or there will be some crooked business going
on;" and I told them what to do; and he done what I told him to
do, to ask those people those questions; the same as they do when
they register.
Q. When Kelley came in, he brought the voters in there with
him? A. Yes, sir; one at a time.
Q. What questions did the inspector ask them? A. The same
as when they go to register; how long have you lived in the district and how long in the county, and they could not answer the
questions; so they stood there for a while, and, says I, " Swear the
man in, if he wants to vote;" and he looked at me, and he sase
'No, I wont vote," and so Frank Kelley called him out.




125


Q. What did Kelley say to him when he called him out? t
He took him outside, but I could not say what he told him.
Q. What did he say when he called him out? A. He said, "I
will fix you; just come out."
Q. He told him that he would "fix him," and took him outside? A. Yes, sir; and in five or six minutes he brought another
one in, in the same way, and done the same thing, and that is
the way he brought in six different men, and I called the policeman's attention and I told him, "That has got to be stopped;" I
said, "If you don't stop it, I will report it;" so he interfered with
Frank Kelly, and he told him, "Frank, you have got to stop
that," and so a friend of his commenced to curse and swear, and
said, "You have nothing to say to me; I know my business;' I
was told by Mr. Commissioner Martin what to do before this, the
day before election he told me what to do on election day;" and
through that the thing was dropped; he could not go further
when the policeman interfered.
Q. When he told this policeman that he was acting under
instructions from Commissioner Martin, did the policeman,say
anything more after that? A. No, sir; he stopped him; he would
not let him go any further.
Q. Have you knowledge in regard to these lithographs being
posted in the windows of the various places? A. Yes,'sir.
Q. How many of them did you see? A. I saw them in every
window around the stores there.
Q. Where is your store? A. I have no store.
Q. Around what stores do you mean? A. I went around the
district what I have charge of, every night, to see about things.
Q. In the district in which you were captain? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And thfese pictures were placed in nearly every store, were
they? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Up to a given time, when they were taken down? A. Yes,
sir; one evening when I got there, they were gone.
Q. What evening was that? A. About three or four nightsI went around —and people came around to headquarters and
made complaints.and told me that these things were going on.
Q. What did they say to you? A. That the pictures were
taken down of Mr. Kempner then I went around and found out
that they were taken down, and we ordered some more to be
taken down; and that thing happened three or four different
times.
Q. What did these people say was the reason that they were
taken down? A. That they were forced by the police or by the
captain.




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Q.. That was the excuse that they gave to you? A. Yes, s
Q. And you reported that to Mr. Kempner? A. Yes, sir.
Crossexamination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What is your business? A. A gilder.
Q. Where do you work now? A. Thirty-third street, between
Second and Third avenues.
Q. Are you a member of Mr. Kempner's Democracy? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. You were one of his strongest supporters during the last
election? A. I was in favor of Mr. Kempner; yes.
Q. You were one of his captain's were you not? A. Ye-?, sir;
was.
Q. And you did all that you could do to elect him? A. Yes,
sir; I certainly did.
Q. And you were pretty sore when he was not elected, were
you not? A. I was sore, the same as everybody else would be;
I suppose you would be sore if you were defeated.
Q. Now, none of those persons voted, that you speak of, who
came in with Fi':rk Kelle, did they? A. I would not let them
rote.
Q. Well; they did not? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you stop them? A. I did; I challenged the votes, without they would swear their vote in.
Q. They did not swear it in? A. No, sir.
Q. And you complained to the police officer? A. Yes. sir.
Q. And the policeman told Kelley to quit, did he not? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And he quit, didn't he?  A. He did afterward; after he
found he could not go any further; one of the workers —he saal
to me, "Is that the first time you have seen this thing going like
that; I have been in this district for years, and seen it," and I
said, "Yes; I thought I always had gentlemen in front of me,`
and he said, "We have been doing that for years already."
Mr. Nicoll.- I move to strike that from the record.
The Witnem.- That is the way the things are carried on here.
Chairman Lexow.-The motion to strike out will be granted.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did these storekeepers tell you why they removed the plc'ures of Mr. Kempner from their windows? A. They were forced
by some people.
Q. Was that what they said? A. By the captain and police.
Q. Did they say by whom? A. By the captain of police, they
said.




127


Q. Did they tell you that in every instance? A. I was only
in three or four stores and the people told me that each time.
Q. Where you did inquire the answer was the same, was it?. Yes, sir.
Q. That it was by order of the captain and the police? A.
Yes, sir.
By Mr. Oantor:
Q. Did you talk with Mr. Kempner about the testimony thab
you were going to give to-day? A. No, sir.
Q. Where did you get that paper that was handed to Mr.
Sutherland, the counsel? A. I have had an intention to comehere myself, without anybody calling me; I wanted to see what
was goifg on and I happened to meet Mr. Kempner on the street,
and told him he was coming down here and I told him about it.
Q. And you told him what you were going to testify to here?
A. I didn't know whether I would be called as a witness or not.
Q. You told him what you were going to testify to, did you not?
A. I did not; I asked him whether he wanted me down here; he
knew about this before I told him; he knew everything about it
before that.                           - 
By Mr. Bradley:
Q. Did you ever make an affidavit of those facts? A. I was
before the grand jury and testified as to these facts.
Q. Did the grand jury indict these men? A. Not so far as I
'know; not in that district
Q. Did you say that those six men that Kelley brought in,
that none of them cast a vote? A. No, sir; they could not; I
would not allow it.
Q. The policeman performed his duty then? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He did not allow them to vote, did he?
Mr. Oantor.- I object to any such question whether the policeman performed his duty, that is a question of law.
A. I think it was Mr. Martin told the Democratic captain of
that district that was the main thing.
Mr. Niooll.-Is not that rather unfair, to have him testify as
to what Mr. Kelley got from Oommiissioner Martin; I move to
strike that oat.
Mr. Lexow. —Let that be stricken out,
Mr. Sutherland.- Shall I call Mr. Kempner or will the committee accept my statement that the paper which Mr. Kempner
banded to me was a portion of the regular report made to this
amooiation sometime ago with regard to these various outraged,
It is simply a sheet referring to what this witness knew.




128


i Chalrman texow. —We will take your statement In regard to
that
Charles H. P. Collis, called as a witness for the committee, was
duly sworn, and testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. What is your name? A. Charles H. P. Colli s.
Q. Where do you reside, General? A. One thousand and fiftyfive Fifth avenue.
Q. And have resided there how long? A. Six years.
Q. You have been a resident of New York how long? A. Ten
years
Q. You have taken an active interest in public affairs ever
since you have been here, have you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have taken the pains to make personal investigation of
what goes on upon election day in New York? A. Yes, sir.
Q. For how many years have you done that? A. Only once.
Q. What year was that? A. Eighteen hundred and ninetythree; no, 1892.
Q. Where did you go that year to observe things? A. I was
appointed a watcher for the twenty-second district of the Second
Assembly district
Q. Where is that? A. Sixty-eight Oliver street.
Q. Where is it, geographically, in the city? A. It!a between
Chatham Square Elevated station and Brooklyn bridge.
Q. Tell the committee all that you saw and heard while you
were discharging your duty as a watcher in that election district? A. I arrived there about a quarter before 6 o'clock in the
morning; it was raining very hard, and of course it was vry
dark; there were two or three men in the room, the polling
apparatus, the arrangements for the election were not complete;
I took a vacant seat and there was a policeman in the room and,one or two people who were going to conduct the election and
the policemen did not interfere with me at all, until the person
who dominated the polls during the whole day took him by the
lapel of the coat to the rear end of the roam and had a whispered
conversation with him, and then the policeman asked me who I
was.
Q. What time in the day was this? A. Ten minutes before 6
o'clock; he asked me what I was doing there and I said that I was
a watdipr; he said, "What kind of a watcher;" I replied, "A
Republican watcher," and then he was called aside again and
there was further conversation.
Q. Between him and the same party as before? A. Yes, sir;
the same.




.z9


Q. Do you know the name of that other party? A. A man, a
young man by the name of Oloott, I think, about 30 years of
age; after the second whispered conversation, he said, "You
have no right here until 4 o'clock; you come back at 4 o'clock
and we will let you in;" I said, "I am not a canvasser's watcher;
I am a watcher appointed by the Republican organization, and I
have a, right to be here, and I propose to stay;" then they said,
the same man and others, "If you don't put him out, by God,
we will put him out;" then he followed me toward the door, I
receded as he advanced, and I said, "I will, at all events, read you
my commission, my warrant for being here;" he said he didn't
want to hear it; I said, "I will read it; the law requires that I
shall be here before the polls are opened, to see that the ballotboxes are all right, and I propose to stay in this room and per.
form my duty;" after consultation with the other people in the
room, he said he would put me out if I didn't go; by that time
there was quite a mob, and I realized that if I remained he wold
take me to the station-house and lock me up or these men would
club me; I got out on the pavement, intending to make another
effort to go in; when the men who had assembled on the pavement, eight or ten of them, told me to " get out," and step lively;
they followed me, and I went up to Chatham Square station and
went from there on the Elevated to Houston street, to the police
headquarters
Q. Who did you find there at police headquarters? A. I found
Inspector Byrnes, and after hearing my story, he promptly sent
for Inspector Williams, and he came in and he told Inspector
Williams to take me in his (Byrnes') coupe, back to Oliver street,
and see that I was permitted to perform the duty required of
me; I got back there a little before 7 o'clock, a quarter before 7,
perhaps, and Inspector Williams entered and I followed him, and
he said to the board of inspection officers, the election officers,
"Why don't you permit this gentleman to perform the duty that
he is required to perform;" or some such expression; he addressed
the police officer particularly, and said, "Why don't you protect
this man;" and the officer said that he had not interfered with
me at all; he said he simply asked me to step outside on the
curbstone, until they had arranged the ballot-boxes, and then I
could come back; whereupon the entire election board corroborated him, and he said that was all that had transpired; Inspector
Williams said, "You are all lying, and you know you are lying;
I know this gentleman, and I know you, and I want you to see
that he remains in this polling place; I will be back here during
the day several times, and he must not be interfered with;" after
that the police officer was as mild as pie..
L.       17




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Q. And you remained there the rest of the day? A. Yes, ir;
I remained there the rest of the day; that is all that I know
about the police officer.
Q. State whatever you saw going on there, which, as you understood, was in violation of the law, and which the police oflicer
saw? A. Well, the police officer saw 41 able-bodied men havo
helpers to go into the booths and make up their tickets for thelm.
Q. Was there anything else that you saw? A. I challe ged a
good many of them, and my challenge was not regarded at all;
the inspector said that if a man swore he needed help, that he was
not physically able to fold his ballot, he had no alternative, an.l
he had to give him a helper; I told him that was not the law; I
read him the statute, and told him what the causes of physical
inability were, as enumerated in the statute, and he said that he
had his instructions
Q. Did he say where from? A. No; he did not say where from.
but he was going to take the chance, and that was the way he
was going to conduct the election.
Q. You described those 41 men as able-bodied; in what respect
were they able-bodied? A. They had good eyesight, and the
use of their hands; the only man who was crooked at all was a
lame man, and he walked with a stick.
Q. He did not require the stick in order to stand, did he, but
only to walk? A That is all; while Inspector Williams was
there, they were taking the vote of a man and the oath was
administered to him-" You are physically unable to fold your
ballot and require a helper?" "I do;" and I said, "Inspector
Williams, look at that;" Inspector Williams says, "You don't call
that man a cripple, do you, or unable to fold his ballot?" "Well,
he swears so," said the inspector, and Inspector Williams said,
"Well, if I was the inspector I would not let him have a helper;"
"Well," said the inspector, "you are not inspector; that is my
business, and you mind yours."
Q. Tell anything else that you saw of an illegal character,
which was also witnessed by the police. A. I saw men brought
here in groups, and furnished with names taken from the registry
list.
Q. Men voted under names which were not theirs? A. I can
not go that far.
Q. Describe what you did see? A. I saw a man who sat at my
side, ticking off the list and those names that were not ticked,
he would take three or four of them, men who had not voted
and hand them to an active worker, I supposed for the purpose
of having those people hunted up, and brought to the polls, which




131


would be legitimate, but I saw this man take them out in ths
treet, and hand tflem to the people there.
Q. Hand those names to the people? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then what occurred? A. Then after a while a man would
come in and walk up to the polls -
Q. And would he call off one of those names? A. Yes, sir;
in fact one man had forgotten his name and turned to the man
who brought him in and said, "What is that," and he told him,
"John Kelly" or whatever the name was.
Q. Where was the policeman when all this took place? A.
With his back to the wall opposite them.
Q. How far from the man who inquired as to the name? A
Within arm's reach.
Q. And the man who brought in this voter told him the name?
A. Yes, sir, and then he went from the desk at which the tickets
were, up to the chairman of the board and he said, "I need a
helper; then this stereotyped oath was administered to him, and
this same man Olcott, or his brother, took the man into the
booth.
Q. There was one man who performed that service? A. Two
men; but one man performed probably 75 per cent. of the work.
Q. And this man could not tell his name at first, the man who
had the use of his eyes? A. No,air; he had perfect use of.his
eyes.
Q. And had he the use of his hands? A. Yes, sir; perfectly.
Q. Tell the committee anything else that you saw in violation
of law which was also seen by this police officer. A. I went to a
polling place in Oxford street in the forenoon, which was
around the corner from where I was, to see how the watcher was
getting along there; whether he was having any trouble, and I
saw the identical man who had voted in my election district
hanging around the polls there; I did not see him vote, however.
Q. What, if anything, did you see at Oxford street? A. The
same kind of thing going on and our watcher perfectly helpless
Q. And men swearing to their inability to fold the ballots?
A. I did not stay long enough for that; I went in order to see
if he had any trouble.
Q. Did you visit any other polling place? A. No, sir.
Q. Is there any other circumstance that occurs to your recollection, that you have not already given? A. The Democratio
supervisor, when I made my first challenge, said that I would
have to be sworn.
Q. That you would have to be sworn? A. Yes, sir; and he said
that unless I positively said that I knew that these men did not
reside where they said they did, it would not do; I called his




132


attention to the fact that the informer's name ought not to be
divllged; that did not make any difference, he said, and he said,
"If he challenges anybody, you swear him, and if he don't, you
have got to take the vote."
Q. Who said that? A. This Democratic supervisor, when I
challenged a voter, said to the inspector, "You must swear Mr.
Collis" and unless I was sworn and that I knew positively that
these men did not reside at the place represented that they had
to take the vote.
Q. You did not have the pleasure of the personal acquaintance
of those repeaters? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you think of anything else? A. I ought to say that I
went before the grand jury and had the whole election board
indicted.
Q. Did you observe whether or not during the day this police
officer offered any advice to these inspectors or workers? A. No,
sir; he did not interfere at all; the only interference was when
he was acting under the instruction of the people inside.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicollt
Q. You made no complaint against Inspector Byrnes or Williams? A. No, sir; nor the police officer, excepting that he was
dominated by the people inside; they gave him his instructions
Q. And was inactive in his duties where he should have been
active? A. He was active enough against me; I do not think he
would have disturbed me if he had been left alone.
By Mr. Cantor:
Q. You say you had the board indicted? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long ago was that?    A. Just a year; they were
indicted a month after the election; that must have been in
December; there were two bills found against all of them.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Who was then the district attorney?
Mr. Nicoll.-I was the district attorney.
By Mr. Cantor: Q. Do you know whether they were ever
brought to trial? A. They have not; they could not very well
be tried without my evidence.
Thomas P. Harrington, called as a witness on behalf of the
committee, was duly sworn, and testified as followas
Direct examination by Mr. Southerland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. No. 65 Cherry street




133


Q. lHow long have you lived there? A. Three years.
Q Were you, in any of the recent elections, an official? A. Yes,
sir; I was Republican watcher in the campaign of 1891
Q. In that same election district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And as such you had charge of looking after the registration
list, as well as the election? A. Yes, sir.
Q Did you observe anything on Saturday, the 29th day of
October, the last day of registry? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was it? A. A man came, in and offered to register
from a vacant lot, No. 358 Water street.
0. You know it was a vacant lot? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do? A. I challenged his right to register
Q. Did you state the grounds of your challenge? A. They
wanted to know on what grounds, and I said on the ground that
the man does not live at the place where he offereC to register
from, and they went to look, and while they were doing that the
man was ejected from the place by a man named Henry Clark.
Q. Who was Henry Clark? A. He kept a place at 359 and
361 Water street; it was then a house of prostitution.
Q, That was across the way from 358 Water street? A. Yes,
sir.
Q He rushed in toward the door, did he? A. Yes, sir'
Q. Did he say anything then? A. I called to the officer to
arrest that man for attempting to register illegally.
Q. What did he say? A. He said, "What can I do? "
Q. Where was this man Clark standing or sitting while you
were interposing this challenge? A. He stood close to the door
on the right of the officer.
Q. He stood next to the officer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he left the officer and went up to this man? A. He left
the officer and went to the table where the board of registry was
sitting.
Q. How far away was that- further than that rail? A. No, sir;
not as far as that, probably eight feet.
Q. So then he and the officer heard these questions that were
asked him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this man, Clark, got up from the side of the officer and
went over to the mar and rushed him out of the door? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And while he was doing this you called on him to arrest
him? A. Whlen he was going out I said. " I want you to arrest
that man;" and he said, "What can I do? "
Q. Did you follow the man out? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What happened then? A. I followed the man three blocks,
and when I was going across James slip I saw an officer on the
opposite side, and I called upon him to rap for that man, and he




134


struck the sidewalk once, and the man turned into Water street
and ran up to Oliver street, and then to Cherry street, to 110,
which was one door from Catherine street, and there I overtook
him, and the officer came up, and took him to the station-house;
the sergeant asked me as to what the charge was; I told him he
had attempted to register illegally, and he said, " Why didn't you
wait until he had registered;" I said, "I would have had to wait
a long while, for I had to chase him three blocks."
Q. What had this man, Clark, been doing before this? A. He
was doing this at every election; sending repeaters.
Q. He had been bringing people in that way before? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. All during the day up to the time of the occurrence? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Were you at the polling place on election day in your
official capacity? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was when? A. During the campaign of 189L
Mr. Nicoll.- How far back does the committee propose to take
testimony?
Mr. Sutherland.- This is going back to 1891, at the present
time, with this witness.
Mr. Nicoll.- How far back will the committee go; is there any
limit fixed?
Chairman Lexow. —Probably not back of 1891.
Q. Who was the Republican candidate for Senator in 1891?
A. Mr. Marx; I saw a coach coming up in front of the polling
place, and a young man came in and asked for the Republican
captain, and I went out and saw Mr. Marx in his booth, and he
asked me how things were going on, and I told him this was no
place for him, and everything would be all right.
Q. Did anything happen to this young man that came in? A.
Yes, sir; he was pulled and dragged around there in the presence
of the officers, who was attending the election that day.
Q. Did they afford him any protection? A. No, sir.
Q. The young man came in and asked for the Republican captain? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He did not call you by name? A. No, sir.
Q. He told you that Mr. Marx had sent in for you? A. No;
he didn't say that.
Q. He said that the Republican captain was wanted outside?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How soon after that was it before they pitched into this
young man? A. They had hold of him before I got out; and
when I got out I said, "What are you doing with this man; why
don't you leave him alone;" and I went to the coach and saw Mr.




lo5


Marx, and fold him everything was going all right; I told him
to return to the polling place at a certain time, and I saw a man
on the curb by the name of Whitty, and he grabbed me by the
coat
Q. Is Whitty an ex-convict? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, what did he do to you? A. He grabbed me by the
coat, and I told him that I did not desire to have any trouble,
that being election day; that I was always to be found around the
district, and there was 364 other days, and if he had any grievance that he wanted to settle, I would settle with him; he would
not release the hold of my coat, and I looked down, and I saw
that he was carrying weapons, a club and a revolver, and I thought
to myself, I guess they mean to inflict punishment on me, and I
will try to get out the best way possible, and I argued with him
and told him I didn't wish to have any trouble, and if he desired
to settle any trouble with me he could do so on any other day;
that I never had caused any blood to be spilled on election day,
and did not choose to do so then, but he would not release my
coat, and I grabbed him by the throat with my left hand, and
went to strike him with my right, when the two officers rushed
out -
Q. Where were the two officers? A. One was standing on the
poll door, and one was outside.
Q. How far away from you? A. Probably 12 feet
Q. Where they could see all this proceeding? A. Yes, sir;
and one officer grabbed me by the coat and raised his club to
strike me, and I told him if he struck me I would kill him where
he stood, and a friend of mine came forward to help me, and the
other officer rushed out and grabbed him and up with his stick
to strike him; they didn't take hold of this Whitty at all; it was
me and my friend they took hold of.
Q. You had been challenging repeaters and unlawful registration before that? A. Yes, sir; from the first day of registration.
Q. Down to that time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time in the day was it that this took place, when Mr.
Marx came there? A. About half-past 10 or 11 o'clock.
Q. And these policemen made no move to protect you in any
wise in this assault, until you began to defend yourself? A. No,
sir. -
Q. And then they laid hold of you and your friend? A. Yes
sir.
Cross-emamination by Mr. Nicoll 
Q. What is your business? A. I am employed in the United
States public stores as a messenger.




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Q. In the United States public stores? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where? A. At the corner of Washington and Watt street
402 and 410 Washington street.
Q2. When did you get your appointment? A. In 1891-no
September 23, 1890.
Q. You are a Republican office-holder, are you? A. Yes, sir,
Q. They are very rare; what was your business prior to being
in tle public stores? A. I worked for a gentleman by the name
of John Marsh, 165 Maiden Lane, in the fruit business
Q. Where did you live then? A. I lived in the same place.
Q. When did you first tell the story that you have told here
to-day? A. I have told it long ago.
Q. When? A. Lots of times before; four or five weeks ago and
I told it to the county committee in 1891.
Q. When did you tell it to Mr. Sutherland? A. I have not
told it to Mr. Sutherland.
Mr. Sutherland.- Not until he told it to me on the stand.
Q. When did you tell it last, before you told it on the stand?
A. Last evening.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You told it to the gentleman sitting to my right? A. Yeo,
sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. The associate of Judge Sutherland? A. I don't know in
what capacity he is connected with him.
Q. Where did you tell it to Mr. Gracie? A. At 1122 Broadway.
Q. What is that? A. The headquarters of the Republican
association.
Q. What association? A. The Republican County Association.
Q. The regular Republican organization of this county? A.
That is the only one that is regular now, that I know of.
Q. The only Republican organization of the county? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. How did you come to go to the regular Republican organizac
tion of this county last night? A. I was up there oftentimes
every night, since last November.
Q. You go there every night? A. Well, not every night; I have
been there five nights in a week.
Q. Are you in the habit of going there almost svery night? A,
N', sir; in it weeks I have not been there every night
Q. Did you just happen to drop in last night? A. I went up
there yesterday afternoon.
Q. Were you in the courtroom yesterday? A. Yes, sir.




137. Did you go there to meet Mr. Gracie yesterday afternoon?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who did you meet there? A. Mr. Millholland.
Q. Mr. Millholland had sent for you, had he not?
Chairman Lexow.- How is this material?
Mr. Nicoll.-I want to show how this testimony came about.
Here is a man who comes here in 1894, and tells us now of
something that happened in 1892, two and a half years ago; I
want to know how it came about.
Mr. Sutherland.-I object to that
Mr. Nicoll.-You object to what; how you found out?
Chairman Lexow.- As affecting the credibility of the witness.
Mr. Sutherland.-If the counsel has any objections as to the
credibility of the witness, I will withdraw the objection, but if
it is simply to find out as to the party faction - Mr.Mr. Nicoll.- I want simply to show the witness' relation in the
whole matter.
Mr. Lexow. —Yes, you have that right
Q. Have you ever been arrested? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was the first time? A. The last time was in 1877.
Q. When was the time before that? A. I might have been
arrested for standing around on the corners.
Q. When was the first time that you were arrested? A. When
I was a boy standing around on the street
Q. You were arrested for standing around on the street? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. What was the result on the first charge? A. The charge
that I referred to in 1877, I was tried and acquitted.
Q. What was the charge?
M3r. Sutherland.- I object to the question.
3Mr. Nicoll.-Why do you object?
Mr. Sutherland.- Because I do object.
Mr. O'Connor.-I object; it makes no difference, if the man
was acquitted.
Mr. Sutherland.- When a man stands acquitted by the jury,
he can not be questioned as to the charge brought against him.
Mr. Nicoll. —Wc are not governed hemc by the rules of
evidence.
Mr. Sutherland.-I s that why you press the questioni
Mr. Nicioll. —If you want the rules relaxed, relax them now.
Mr. Sutherland.- This witness has been acquitted of the
charge on which he was arrested, and I object to the question as
to the character of the charge.
Chairman Lexow.- The objection is sustained.
Q. When was the first time that you were arrested?
(Objected to.)
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Mr. Oantor.- Do I understand that the question as to the character of the charge is ruled out?
Chairman Lexow.- Yes.
Q. What was the disposition of the case when you were arrested
the first time?
Chairman Lexow.-That objection is also susained.
Mr. O'Connor.-You may show that this man has been convicted, if you can.
Mr. Nicoll.-I am going to ask him if he was not fined or
inllrisoned?
The Witness.- Never.
Q. You were never fined or imprisoned? A. No, sir.
Q. How many times have you been apprehended by the police?
(Objected to.)
Mr. Nicoll. —Here ie a man who is testifying to certain things
andChairman Lexow.- If he has been convicted of crime, you can
prove it
Mr. Nicoll.- I want to show the bias of the witness. I want
to show that he has been apprehended by the police. That is the
ground on which I put the question; he comes here and makes
charges against the police; I propose to show a bias against the
police because of arrests by the police.
Mr. Sutherland.-Was he arrested by this policeman?
Mr. Nicoll. ---Ie has a grievance, generally, against the police.
Mr. Sutherland.- If the counsel propose to show that the witness was arrested by the policeman who was on duty at this eleclion day, I will not object; but if it is some other policeman, I
do object.
Chairman Lexow.- The same ruling is made, and the objection
is sustained, unless counsel intends to show that this arrest or
persecution of the witness was by the same, policeman against
whom he has testified.
Q. Where were you tried?
(Objected to; objection sustained.)
Q. Prior to your occupation in the fruit business, what were
you engaged in? A. I had a pair of horses and a truck; I was
a truckmamn
Q. What trucking were you doing? A. Riding fruits from
the auction of Brown & Syckle.
Q. How long were you engaged in that? A. About four years.
Q. Before that what were you doing? A. I worked for the
Tr'ited States Stamping Company, in the capacity of a shipping
clerk.
Q. How long did you stay with them? A. Probably two years.
Mr. Nicoll. —That is all.




139


Mr. Sutherland. —Are there any questions by the committze?
By Mr. Bradley: 
Q. You say that the policeman come out when this man
caught hold of you, and that you went to strike him? A. Yes,
Fir.
Q. Did the policeman take you or the other man to the stationhouse? A. He took me.
Q. He let the other go, did he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He merely separated you, quelled the disturbance? A
He caught hold of me and raised his club.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Raised his club upon you or on the other man? W. On me.
Q. I understood you to say that the policeman was looking at
the disturbance all the while? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Cantor:
Q. You were the one who struck the blow, were you? A. No,
sir; there was no blow struck, only when he grabbed me; I
stepped off the curb andQ. Did you not testify that you drew your fist back to strike
him? A. I grabbed him with my left hand and raised my right
hand to strike him, and then the officer reached out and grabbed
me.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. And up to that time, the officer stood by and did
nothing?  A. Yes, sir; and  I called  the  attention  of
the officer to the captain, who was working in the interest of
Tammany Hall, walking inside of the rail and dropping ballots
and then kicking them into the booths, and he said he did not
see them.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. How many times did you do that, call attention of the officer
to that? A. Only once that day:
Q. This man, Whitty, was an ex-convict? A. Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Whose attention was called to that fact about the ballots?
A. I called the officer's attention to that.
Q. And he said what? A. He said he did not see anything
done.
Q. Did you see him looking at the occurrence? A. He was
looking in the direction of where it was, and where this man was
wtanding inside of the rail; I was outside of the nail; I was
excluded.




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Q. How far from the officer did that happen? A. Four or five
feet.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. And he was looking in that direction? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this man was an ex-convict? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did anything happen to him that same day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What? A. He went to a polling place in Oak street and
another one came down there and they intended to create
trouble in the district, and they got into a conflict, and he was
shot in the jaw.
Q. On that same election day? A. Yes, sir; by his companion.
Robert J. Oromie, called as a witness on behalf of the committee, being duly sworn, testified as follows:
By Mlr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Thirty West One Hundred and
Sixteenth street.
Q. How long have you lived there? A. I moved there in
August, 1893.
Q. Where did you live prior to that? A. One Hundred and
Twenty-eighth street, between Sixth and Seventh avenues, No.
135.
Q. Always been a New Yorker?     A. Yes, sir; born and
brought up in New York.
Q. Did you go to the polling place last fall to vote? A. The
beginning of it, that being my first vote in the forty-second election district of the Twenty-sixth Assembly; I went there about
9 o'clock in the morning, and going down to the polling place I
saw the Tammany box was about in the middle of the block at
1662 Park avenue; there were about 10 of the Stuyvesant club
all lined up on the street with badges on; they grossly insulted
me all the way to the polling place; they offered me tickets, and
I told them my ballots were inside, that I had no use for them;
at that time, I had taken no active part in the organization of
that district, but I looked around to see if there was a Republican badge, and there was none there, and I took it for granted
that I had to push my own battle, and the policeman said, "Why
don't you take one of these tickets? "
Q. Where was the policeman? A. One Hundred and Seventeenth street and Park avenue.
Q. How far from the polling place? A. One door, which is
117 from Park avenue.
Q. Was he standing one door from the pollingplace? A.
Yes, sir.


I




141
Q. How far from the polling place were those men distributing
those tickets? A. They were standing two on the corner talking
with him and one of the parties offered me pasters to put on my
ballot, which I refused.
Q. Now, tell your conversation with the policeman? A. He
said to me - I don't know his name, but he knows me as " Bob,'
for I lived in Harlem, and he knows me by the first name; I don't
know whether he knows my last name or not.
Q. Was he in uniform? A. He was in uniform and on duty
at the polling place, and he said: "Bob, why don't,you take one
of these tickets;" the remark I passed, and all the conversation
I had with him was, "My tickets are inside;" I went inside,
and when I got to the polling place I could not open the doors,
and there was a party who opened the door, and I went in the
polling place to deposit my ballot and came out again, and, coming by the box, they pushed another man into me, into the election box, and I said no more because I thought to myself, "I
will see you later;" then I made up my mind that I would take
an interest in the organization of my district, and found out
where the association met, and I went and joined the Morton
Club; that was the Republican organization in that district at
that time; the last election, that is, the special election.
Q. That all occurred last fall? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that the time that these pasters were given out, last
fall? A. Yes, sir; this was on the special election; now, we are
coming to the paster part; I am only giving you the time that I
resided in the district.
Q. This was in 1893? A. Yes, sir; now, we are coming to
January 30, 1894, on the Congressional special election; I was
down to the district, there have been a good many complaints
coming into headquarters about trouble through the district; I
took a walk in the morning around the district; I thought to
myself that I would make an early vote; I had a little business
to attend to and I went directly from getting my breakfast -I
had been out early in the morning at the polling place and I
went back and got my breakfast and took a walk down the district and came back to vote; as I was standing at the polling
plaice, the Democratic leader of the Assembly district came
along in his buggy, and he said to the election district leader,
"If you don't carry this district to-day, you will lose your
head;" that is one of our police justices to-day.
Q. What is his name? A. Mr. Burke; he is president of the
Stuyvesant Club; I made upmymind that there was no use of
having anybody arrested, because by the remark of that kind -
(Objected to)




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Q. Never mind that; just state what was done? A. I trotted
around the district twice-three times in fact, around the
Assembly district, and I went over to the Second Assembly district, One Hundred and Third street, and there has been a complaint of trouble at the headquarters; in going into the election
district I saw one of the Tammany men sitting inside of the door.
Q. Inside of what door? A. Inside the booth, inside of the
store, and he handed me a ticket and paster just as I went into
the door and two policemen sat right there in the window.
Q. How far from the booth? A. About four feet; they sat
inside of the window of the store, and I turned round and
said 
Q. Which way were they facing, toward the booth or the
other way? A. One sat in this manner, and the other sat right
opposite to him.
Q. Was one of them facing the booth? A. They were inside -
and they were looking right at the booth; I said to the police,
man, "Is this the way things are getting done here?" and he
says, "Well, I don't know anything about it;" says I, "This man
has no right to give out pasters anyway," and he says, "How the
hell do you know that he gave out pasters;" I said, "There are
the pasters, that is proof of it," and I turned around to the supervisor, and I said, "If anything more like this exists, I will indict
you people; you people are supposed to be near that rail;"
and I said, " You make note of that on your book under' remarks,'
but the policeman would not put them out."
Q. Did you ask the policeman to put them out? A. I did,
and he said he had nothing to do with it; he did not see the paster
handed to me, and he had nothing to do with it; I said, " Why is
he allowed in the booth to hand out pasters, when he ought to
be 150 feet away?"
Q. What did he do or say? A. He said, "I have nothing to do
with it," and the man walked out himself and I came out, and as
I came out the policeman stood talking to him at the door, and
he said to him, "You damned fool, you ought to know who you
are handing them to;" that is just the remark that he passed.
Q. That was the remark that the policeman made to this man
who was inside? A. Yes, sir; as I came out.
Oross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What is your business? A. Painter and decorator.
Q. How long have you been engaged in that business? A.
Atbout 10 years.
Q. Where are you painting or decorating now? A. At 30 West
One Hundred and Sixteenth street, doing business for myself.




143


Q. Have you been in any other business in this city? A. Yes,
sir; I have been firing on the elevated railroad and firing on the
Pennsylvania railroad.
Q. You have not given much attention to polities, untiW recent
years? A. Yes, sir; I always took an interest in my organization.
tion.
Q. In your organization? A. I always took an interest in the
weiiare of the district, but not in the polities until lately.
Q. You took an interest particularly in the general welfare
of your country? A. Yes, sir; for an honest ballot
Q. And for reform - are you for reform, too? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you wake up to this state of affairs? A. I woke
up when I got in the district and saw that it was time to wake
up, when I found that the way things existed.
Q. You did not wake up until last autumn? A. No, sir; I always
went and voted, but I never took any spirited interest in any
organization, but when I went and saw the way I was used at
the polling place, I thought it was time the business men as well
as the politicians should take an interest in such things.
Q. I understood you to say that they call you "Bob" in Harlem? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does everybody call you Bob? A. Anybody that I am
familiar with; it is a familiar word; "Hello, Bob, how do you
do?"
Q. Do you travel around a good deal in Harlem? A. Yes, sir;
in business matters I do.
Q. Out with the boys, too, at times? A. No, sir, I do not; I
am a home man; I think a good deal of my home and always did.
Mr. Sutherland.- And you are trying to protect it at the ballot box, are you?
Q. How is it that everybody calls you " Bob" if you are such
a home man? A. Like a good many other men who are brought
up in the neighborhcod and goes to school around there; I guess
you would be called " Bob" if that was your name, meeting the
boys that you used to travel around with in your younger days,. And the policeman called you "Bob "? A. He did eall mi
4 Bob."
Q. And he said, "Why don't you take this ticket"?   ~.
a Why don't you take the ticket," he says.
Q. You did not take it? A. No; I had no use for it.
Q. You went off and voted some other ticket? A. That is the
way I always do.
Q. And that is the circumistance that woke you up? A. No,
-the circumstance was when I got pushed, going into my balloting
plIce; I thought a man had a perfect right to the highway; I
thought it was the duty of the policeman to arest those people.




144


Q. You say somebody pushed you? A. Yes; when I wpnt in,
and when I came out, and my hat was knocked off.
Q. Was there not a crowd there? A. Yes.
Q. All trying to vote? A. No; not at all; they were a crowd
of citizens with badges on pushing people who wanted tc go in.
Q. MWere you the only voter,airo; ln thlere? A. No.
Q. There were a good many people in the polling place?  a.
No, sir; nothing of the kind.
Q. You were the only man? A. This did not happen in the
polling place.
Q. It happened just outside of the rail? A. No; that was on
the street.
s. You1 were pushed on the sidewalk, were you? A. No, on
the street; inside the polling place I had an opportunity to depoi 
my ballot
Q. When you got inside, everything was in order? IA. Yes, sir.
Q. You lot your Itallots and went into the booth amd voted as
you pleased? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you got pushed? A. Yes, sir; when I eame out
and got to the Tammany Hall box I got pushed again; one man
pushed another into me, and my hat fell off.
Q. You mean the box where they gave out the pasters? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Is that what you complain of? A. Yes, sir; I am complaining of that in this way; that the policeman had a right
to protect me, and not to allow these people to ill-use any
citizen.
Q. Did anyone harm you? A. These people harmed me, when
they pushed one another into me, and knocked off my hat, and
the policeman grinned at it.
Q. You mean to say a man who has lived in Harlem all his
life, finds any fault when he gets a little push on election day?
(Objected to.)
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sutherland.-I object to the question; there are other
witnesses here, and it is proper that only legitimate questions
should be put to the witness.
Chairman Lexow.-The witnesses will understand that they
will be protected absolutely.
Mr. Nicoll.- Rather than to hurt anybody's feeling, I will stop.
Chairman Lexow.-Is that all, Mr. Nicoll?
Mr. Nicoll.-Yes; I think so.
Mr. Sutherland.-That is all; unless the committee desire to
ask some qnestions.




145
Leo Cohen, called on behalf of the committee, being duly
sworn, testified as follows:
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. One hundred and twenty-three
West Fifty-fourth street.
Q. How long have you resided there? A. About a year.
Q. Where did you live before that? A. Eight hundred and
twenty-five Seventh avenue.
Q. You have always been a New Yorker? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you vote at the last election? A. In the eighth
election district, 101 West Fifty-fourth street; the Twenty-first
Assembly district.
Q. You may tell the committee what you saw there in
reference to the conduct of the police? A. I was there as a
watcher.
Q. Had they Republican watchers? A. I was there as a
Republican watcher: T was there from the time the polls opened,
about half-past 5 in the morning, until about half-past 9 in
the evening; I stayed there until the ballots had all been
counted.
Q. Previous to the counting, what did you. see, if anything,
in regard to the conduct of the police, while the working was
going on? A. I saw an officer standing at the booth when
one of the voters had come out of the booth, and he said he
didn't know how to fold his ballot, and the officer said, "I will
show you," and the officer had one or two of the ballots in
his hands, and I said, "There will not be anything of that
kind of bulldozing going on here," and he told me I had too
much to say; there were 15 or 20 people around there at the time;
so he sent for one of the ballot clerks, and the ballot clerk
had to show him how to fold his ballot, and he went in and
voted; after that, when it came to the closing of the ballot,
after the votes had been turned out of the box, and when they
came to be counted, there happened to be 242 ballots; they
counted them in tens, and there happened to be 240, and they
had separated them, and they found 243 ballots.
Q. That is, they so stated? A. Yes, sir; so the crowd there,
20 odd Tammany people, demanded that the ballots be destroyed,
the two ballots; they claimed that the two ballots that was
found in.one, should be destroyed; I objected to that and said,
"There will be no ballots destroyed here;" and the officer said,
"Let me have those ballots; I will take care of them for a
while;" I said, "You are not authorized to handle any ballots,
you are here to protect us people;" and the crowd said, "Let
him hold them; he will take care of those two ballots," and the
officer took the two ballots
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Q. Did you call his attention to the law in reference to that?
A. Yes, sir; I told him to lay the ballots down on the table;
that he had no business with them.
Q. Did you tell him whose duty it was to take care of them?
A. I called upon the crowd to not let the officer have them, and
the crowd said, "You have got too God damned much to say;"
I said, "I am here as a Republican watcher and I am going to
stay and do my duty;" and one of them said to me, "You want
to come pretty near keeping your mouth shut or we will sit on
you,"
Q. Where were the officers? A. Right behind the inspectors
Q. Where were you? A. In front of the table.
Q. How far were you from the officers? A. About two feet.
Q. Where was the crowd? A. All alongside of him on the
ri:'it-hand side; there were 20 odd people in the room.
Q. And the officer was facing you and this crowd? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he was behind the inspectors? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he do to the ballots? A. I told him to lay them
on the table, and the crowd said the best thing to do was to
destroy those two ballots, the two ballots found in one; I said,
"I will send up to the organization headquarters;" and the
policemen said to the inspectors, "Sign the returns;" and I
said, "Don't you do anything of the kind until this thing is
settled;" and he said, "We will leave it to the Manual, and I
brought over the Manual, and he claimed that two ballots
folded into one should be destroyed, and one of the Tammany
men said, "It looks to me as if there are two Republican ballots"-the fight was made in that district for the Assemblyman, and he said, "I will tear them up and settle the argument."
Q. Who said that? A. The officer did; and they put it to a
vote, whether the ballots should be destroyed, and I had sent
to headquarters to call down Mr. Blanchard, and Mr. Clark
was also there, and they sent down word that they would not
come down, unless the inspector sent for them; I asked tht inspector to send for them, but previous to their coming there the officer
destroyed the two ballots.
Q. You say there was a vote taken? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who participated in that? A. The Tlammany Hall people;
they had a majority.
Q. Who asked for a vote? A. Nobody, only they said, "We
have a majority here and the ballots will be destroyed."
Q. Is there anything elsa that you recollect? A. No, sir.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Where do you reside? A. One hundred and twenty-three
West Fifty-fourth street.Q Is that in the Twenty-first Assembly district? A. Yes, sir,




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Q. That is what is known generally as the "brown stone dis
trict?" A. Yes, sir; the "silk stocking district"
Q. Is that the district where the Union Club League is
situated? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you a member of any political organization? A. Yese
sir; I belong to the Republican organization
Q. Which Republican organization?
(Objected to; objection sustained.)
Mr. Nicoll. —ir. Chairman, will you permit me to call to your
mind the fact that only an hour ago when Mr. Kempner was on
the stand, I asked him to what political organization he was
attached and you permitted me to show the different political
organization in the Democratic party in the city, yourself stating
or Senator O'Connor, that it was proper on the question of bias.
May we not show the same thing in reference to the Republican
organization?
Chairman Lexow.-No, because there can not be any biia on
that question. We do not Propose to have this committee used
for the purpose of making discriminations between faQtons. We
are not here for that purpose.
Mr. Nicoll.-Certainly not, and I am not here to do any such
thing, but we can not shut our eyes to the fact that there are
factions in the Republican party as well as in the Democratic
party.
Mr. O'Connor. —Suppose the majority of this committee
assume that every Republican will state the fact just as strongly
is he feels the fact will permit him  We will assume that he is
a partisan in that respect, but whether he belongs to this or that
or the other faction is of no consequence. We will assume that
they are all equally partisan. He tells us that he is a Repliblican. We assume that because he is a Republican that he will
state the fact as favorably from his standpoint as he can. I do
not see how you can make it any stronger to show which faction
he belongs to.
Mr. Nicoll.-I would not be guilty of trying to make a division in the Republican party in this community. This is not my
purpose at all.
Mr. Cantor.- The Republican members are very sensitive about
factions.
Mr. Sutherland.- I will admit that every witness that I have
examined, and every witness that I shall examine belongs to any
one cf the factions that he has a mind to name -nd Mr. Nicoll can
take his choice that they belong to the faction that he thinks is
the most to be despised.
Mr. Nicoll.- I dissent from that remark. I do not despise any
faction.




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Chairman Lexow. —The committee ruled that question out
Please proceed with the examination.
Q. How long have you been a member of any political organi
ration in this city? A. Seven years.
Q. And to what political organization have you been a member for seven years-are you a member of the same rplitical
organization to-day that you have been a member of for the past
seven years?
(Objected to; objection sustained.)
Q. Have you been, before this, inspector of elections? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. How often? A. Eighteen hundred and ninety-one and 1892.
Q. Always in the Twenty-first district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in the same election district? A. No, sir.
Q. In a different election district of the Twenty-first Assembly?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is your business?  A. I am out of business at present;
I have been in business for 12 years for myself, in the produce
business up to a short time ago.
Q. Up to what time?  A. Up to about two years ago.
Q. Two years ago? A. Yes,sir; since thenIhave been to the
public stores within two months back.
Q. You are in office now? A. No, sir; I am out of office.
Q. You are out of office? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What office did you have? A. I was driving for Mr. Hess.
Q. What Hess?   A. The man who has the contract.
Q. Jacob Hess? A. Simon Hess, the cartman.
Q. Is he a member of your organization too? A. No, sir.
Q. You were a driver for Mr. Hess? A. Yes, sir.
Q. For two years? A. No, sir.
Q. For how long? A. For a couple of months, and it got slack
down there, and I was laid off.
Q. That is only two months out of two years; what have you
been doing the rest of the time? A. Tending bar.
Q. Where did you do that?  A. At summer resorts
Q. What summer resorts? A. Saratoga.
Q. Where else? A. Westchester.
Q. Where in Westchester?   A. The race track
Q. The Morris race track? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were bartender there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long? A. While the season lasted.
Q. All last season? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where else? A. Down at the Brooklyn track-all the race
ti'acks.
Q. What else did you do besides tending bar? A. That is all.
Q. Did you make books? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you help make books? A. No, sir.




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Q. Were you a clerk for a bookkeeper? A. No, sir.
Q. You did nothing but tend bar? A. That is all.
Q. When you were not at the race tracks tending bar, what
were you doing? A. Living home with my folks; doing nothing;
I could not get anything to do; I would do anything that came
along.
Q. What came along? A Any kind of work that I could
get.
Q. Whlat kind of work? A. Well, addressing envelopes at
Republican headquarters, or anything at all.
Q. I am speaking of two years- two months you were in the
public stores, and during the summer season at the race tracks,
tending bar; that only lasted two or three months? A. It lasted
the whole season.
Q. Four months? A. Seven or eight months.
Q. What did you do during the rest of the year? A. Nothing;
only live at home; I,had a few dollars saved and lived home, and
did not need to work.
Q. You did not need to work? A. No, sir; not for three or
four months
Q. You lived on what you had saved during the summer? A.
Yes, sir.
By Mr. Cantor:
Q. Did you say you addressed envelopes at the Republican
organization? A. Yes, sir; perhaps for a week, or two or three
nights.
Q. During the campaign? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. When did you first tell this story? A. To all of the Republicans in the Twenty-first district on the election night; I told it
to everybody.
Q. To as many as you met? A. To pretty much everybody, who
was there at the organization, when the returns came in.
Q. Have you been talking of it ever since? A. For the last
week or so, I suppose
Q. You have been telling it for the last two weeks? A. Yes,
Sir.
Q. To everybody you met? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you first tell it to Mr. Sutherland? A. I told
him this morning.
Q. Who was the person you told it to, before you told him? A.
Our candidate for the Assembly, our defeated candidate, Mr.
Vise.




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Q. When did you tell him? A. About two weeks ago; In fact
he knew about it, from the time of the election.
James S. Lehm-aier, called on behalf of the committeea being
duly sworn, testified as follows:
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. No. 203 West One Hundred and
Ghird street.
Q. What is your business? A. I am a lawyer.
Q. Your office is where? A. No. 132 Nassau street
Q. You have been practicing in New York for how many years?
A. Twelve years.
Q. Always resided in New York? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have resided where you do now for how long? A.
Since last October; October 1st.
Q. And prior to that where did you reside? A. Two hundred
and four West Eighty-first street.
Q. How far from your present place of residence? A. About
a mile.
Q. Where did you vote last election day? A. I voted -I forget the number, but on Amsterdam avenue, between One Hundred and Third and One H.undred and Fourth streets.
Q. How far from your residence? A. I live in the Edinburgh
Hotel, which runs along One Hundred and Third street, and
also along Amsterdam avenue, and the polling place is on the
Amsterdam avenue side of that hotel.
Q. How far from where you live? A. It is on the ground floor
of the hotel, in a store.
Q. So you practically live in the same building which was
occupied as a voting place? A. Yes, sir.
Q. This occurrence about which I am to ask you about occurred
last fall? A. Yes, sir; but not at that polling place.
Q. Where was it? A. On Eighth avenue, between One Hundred and Seventeenth and One Hundred and Eighteenth streets,
I think; it was on the east side of Eighth avenue.
Q. Can you tell us what was the election district? A. I think
it was the twenty-first district of the Twenty-third Assembly.
Q. What time did you go there? A. About half-past 3 o'clock
in the afternoon.
Q. Tell all that occurred when you went there? A. During
that day, Judge Taintor and myself had walked through a considerable portion of the Twenty-third Assembly district to see
bow matters were progressing; we took our lunch up on One
Hundred and Twenty-fifth street, and at about a quarter to 3
o'clock we left the place where we had taken lunch and walked




151


down Eighth avenue, with the idea of watching to see what was
transpiring; as we were passing this polling place, I think it
was a cigar store, it might not have been a cigar store,
but a small store of some kind, I looked through the
show window and saw a policeman in the act of putting his
hands upon a young man whom I recognized as being the Republican captain of one of the election districts up there; there
were a number of men gathered around, apparently more or
less excited, judging from their gestures and their proximity to
this man, and I said to Judge Taintor: "There is a man whom
I know; I suppose he is a watcher here, and I think we had better step in and find out what the matter is; "we stepped in,
and I heard a man whom I was told was the Tammany Hall
captain of that election district and one of the poll clerks say
to the policeman: "Put this man out;" I stepped up and said
to the man, wosse name was Joseph Miller: "Miller, are you
a watcher here," and said "yes;" I turned around to this man
and said: "This man is properly here, and has the right to be
here as long as he behaves himself, and you ought not to put
him out; Judge Taintor made some remark to that effect, and
things quieted down, and it was generally understood, we
believed, that the man was properly there; we then left the polling place and walked down a block or two and proceeded as far
as One Hundred and Sixteenth street, when I said to Judge
Taintor: "I think Miller is having a pretty hard time there; he
seems to be there all alone, and perhaps I had better go back
and see that no further trouble has occurred;" I went back
there and went into the polling place, taking a position in the
corner, near the window, and stood there watching things for
about 10 minutes, when this same man whom I have referred to
as being the Tammany Hall captain of that election district
came in and said to the policeman, "I want you to put that
man out," referring to Miller.
Q. Did he point to him? A. Yes, sir; he pointed to him, and
the policeman moved forward as if he were about to put Miller
out.
Q. The policeman moved forward in the direction of A3iller?
A. Yes, sir; I said, " Gentlemen, I thought this matter had been
dismissed and that Mr. Miller's rights had been recognized;"
then the ballot clerk spoke up and said, "That man has got to
go right out, and so have you;" I said to Mr. Miller, "Have you
another watcher's certificate?" Miller said, "Yes," and lie gave
me a watcher's certificate in blank, and I inserted my own name
in the blank and moved forward toward the guard-rail, nmid
considerable excitement and profanity.
Q. How many people were there? A. I suppose about at that




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time a half dozen people, excluding the election officers; T said to
the chairman of the board of inspectors, "Mr. Chairman, I desire
to present you my certificate and to ask you whether I am not
entitled to be here;" the ballot clerk pushed me back and a policeman took hold of meland said, "You will have to get riglht out of
this;" I said, "I want the decision of the chairman of the board
of inspectors upon this matter."
Q. That is what you said? A. Yes, sir; with that, the policeman took me and pushed me bodily, a distance of about 10 feet
and through the door, and with such violence that I was thrown
down upon my back; I got up and said to him, "'You had no right
to assault me; if I had done anything to violate the law, it is
your business to arrest me, not to assault me;" he said, "You
have got no business in there;" I said, "1 am going back there
again and the only way you can prevent me from going back
there is by arresting me;" I moved in the direction of the
entrance of the polling place, and he said, "All right, I will
arrest you," and he took me to the One Hundred and Twenty
fifth police station and the Tammany Hall captain of the election
district followed me, and the policeman did not make any
specific charge against me, but the Tammany Hall captain did;
I think he charged me with disorderly conduct; I stated facts
to the sergeant, and the sergeant said, "I will entertain the complaint of this man;" I said to the man, "You recognize what you
are doing," and then a citizen whom I don't know, but whom
I believe witnessed the occurrence, spoke up and said, "I will
go this gentleman's bail bond and the sergeant said he could
not take bail inside of an hour and asked me to step in the
officer's roon; I went in and stayed there for an hour and at the
end of an hour I was released; the following morning I appeared
before Judge Feitner at One Hundred and Twenty-fifth Street
Police Court, and the judge listened to the testimony and then
discharged me.
Q. When was that? A. Last election day.
Q. He took you to the One Hundred and Twenty-fifth Sticet
Police Court, did he? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What became of Judge Taintor all this time? A. He left
me at One Hundred and Sixteenth street, as I have stated; he
had gone down to the West Side Republican club when I started
to return.
Mr. Sutherland.-Any further questions of this witness?




153


By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Do you know what became of Miller? A. Yes, sir; I forgot
to state that part; that within five minutes of the time that I was
taken into the police station, Mr. Miller was brought in by the
other one of the two officers there and also charged with disorderly conduct and he was released on bail by some other person
going oil his bond and arraigned the next morning and also
discharged.
Q. That left no Republican watcher at the polls, did it? A. It
left none as I understand it.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You did not see any one there who was a Republican? A.
Tie was the only watcher, as he informed me, and he was taken
from the polls at a very critical time, at the very closing of the
polls.
Q.,You have this certificate of authority all this while? A.
Yes, sir.
By Mr. Cantor:
Q. The Republican inspector was there all this time, was he
not? A. I assume that he was there.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What was the cause of the trouble with Miller? A. The
first trouble?
Q. Yes. A. That I do not know.
Q. Did not Miller get into some dispute with the others
before you arrived? A. I do not know; I entered when the
police officer, at the apparent instigation of the ballot clerk,
was about to eject Miller from the polling place.
Q. And what the cause of the difference between Miller and
the other election officers was, you do not know? A. I do not
Q. Was Miller sober? A. Yes, sir; so far as I could judge,
he was fairly sober, and I saw him for an hour and a half
during that afternoon, from half-past 3 until we were both
released at 5 o'clock.
Q. You said he was laboring under a great state of excitement? A. I do not think I said so, that he was laboring under
a state of excitement; I said the people in the polling place
were all more or less excited, and I presume Mr. Miller was
somewhat excited, and naturally so.
Mr. Sutherland.- You might add, properly so.
tEhe Witness.-I think I might accept the amendmelnt
L.       20




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Q. You do not concede that you had a right to write your
name as a watcher in that certificate, do you? A. I do.
Q. To appoint yourself as a watcher? A. I do.
Q. A watcher under the statute? A. I think so; where the
certificate is signed by the proper officials
Q. Have you an idea that anybody finding a blank certificate can write his name in as a Republican watcher? A. My
opinion is that when anybody received a certificate through the
proper channels and finds the name of the watcher or rather
blank, in place of the name of the watcher, that he might insert
any name that he chose.
Q. Did you ever read the statute on that subject? A. I
don't remember whether I have or not.
Mr. Sutherland. —I do not think a cross-examination on a
question of law is quite material to this controversy.
The Witness —Will you permit me to make this observation?
Mr. Nicoll. —Yes; any observation you like.
The Witness.- It is, that I made no attempt to enter, the
guard-rail, to get behind that, but I stood there perfectly quiet,
in a corner of the polling place, and even had I not been armed
with a watcher's certificate, I think I would have a right to
stand there, as long as I was not creating any disturbance.
By Mr. Cantor:
Q If that was the case, the room mighit be filled with
people? A. Yes; but if you were told to go out-as soon as
I was told to go out I armed myself with a certificate.
Mr. Sutherland. —That is a question of laws and I object to
any further examination in this line.
(Objection sustained.)
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You said there was six or seven others outside of the
guard-rail; do you know who they were?   A. I do not; I
know one was this Tammany Hall captain.
By Mr. Cantort
Q. Was Miller the Republican captain? A. Mr. Miller wa
the Republican captain and watcher.
Q. And he was inside the polling place I A. Yesi but not
inside of the guard-rail.




155
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. I understood you to say that yon and Judge Taintor had
been to a luncheon party together? A. Not a luncheon part;
Judge Taintor and I took a very frugal lunch, upon that day,
being quite busy.
Q. With or without? A. I think without, if I am not nri
taken; I had a cup of coffee.
Robert M. Mackin, called on behalf of the committee, being
duly sworn, testified as follows:
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? X. Four hundred and thirty-six
Ninth avenue.
Q. What is your business? A. Printer-compositor.
Q. Did you have any official connection with the election In
1892? A. I was the chief deputy marshal of the Fifteenth
Assembly district.
Q. Were you in the first election district of the Fifteenth
Assembly district about 1 o'clock in the afternoon on election
dly?  A. It was my business to see that the polls were
properly manned by the United States marshals; about half,
passt 1 I started to go the rounds; I got as far as the first
election district, and I saw a crowd standing in the doorway,
and I elbowed my way in and two policemen were inside, and
as soon as the Republican inspector caught sight of me hIe said
there were two men in the booth.
Q. Where were the police? A. Half way between the door
and the rail of the polling place.
Q. Where in reference to the booth that the inspector pointed
out? A. About 10 feet from it.
Q. Which way were they looking? A. I did hot notice particularly.
Q. How far were you from that booth? A. About 10 feet
Q. Near where the policemen were? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How far was the Republican inspector from the booth t
A. About eight feet
Q. In the same direction that you were? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he pointed to you and said there were two men In
that booth? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then what occurred? W. I went to the booth and opened
the dodr and saw one of the heelers of the district in with a
voter, handing pasters, and I grabbed him by the collar and
pulled him out.
Q. What did you say to the police? A. I went to the polce
and said, "This is a pretty state of affairs; what are you here




156


for;" and they said they did not see anything; I said, "If you
don't clear this place right away I will go and report you;"
while I was talking to the policemen, this man, the heeler, went
behind the booth and shoved him a paster between the cracks
of the booth.
Q To a voter inside? A. Yes, sir; and I went back after
him.
Q. Where were the police when he did that? A. Right in
the same place.
Q. Were the police looking that way? A. I could not say;
but I called their attention to it
Q. What did they say or do? A. They didn't say anything;
they got a kind of a smile on their face.
Q. You called their attention to the man shoving a paster
through the cracks? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they smiled and did nothing? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you then do? A. I went back to the man and
threw him out on the street
Q. Is there anything else that you saw? A. Only in my
rounds through the district; I observed the same general condition of affairs.
Q. You saw specific acts of that character? A I did not
see specific acts, but the general conduct of the election was
about that way.
Mr. Sutherland. —I do not care about that
Cross-examined by Mr. Nicoll
Q. What is your business? A. Compositon
Q. Where do you compose? A. The Cosmopolitan Magazine.
Q. How long have you been in that business? A Twentyone years.
Q. That has been your occupation all your life? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you a Republican? A. Yes, sir.
Q. A member of an organization in this city? A. I am.
Q. How long have you been a member of that organization?
A. I have been a member of one organization called a Republican organization for six years.
Q. Where do you live? A. Four hundred and thirty-six Ninth
avenue.
Q. You were appointed a marshal? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who had your appointment?     A. I believe John W.
Jacobus, who was then and is now United States marshal.
Q. Were you in his district? A. No, sir; in the Fifteenth
Assembly district




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By Senator Cantor.
Q Were you assigned to a particular election district? A.
No, sir; I had general supervision over all the marshals in that
district
Mr. Sutherland.-It was his duty to go through the entire
district.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did you not have a deputy in each election district? A.
I was supposed to have two.
Q. You have no deputy in that district? A. When I got there
I found the deputies had gone, and I asked where they were,
and somebody said they had skipped.
Q. And you had to certify to 'their pay before they were paid,
did you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you think you were doing justice to certify to their pay
when they did not serve? A. They did not get their pay.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did you hear why they were compelled to leave? A. I
understand the story that I got, that the Tammany Hall captain got hold of them and jollied them out
Senatar Cantor.-That is all hearsay.
Frederick Morgenweck, called on behalf of the committeel
being duly sworn, testified as follows:
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Two hundred and twenty-two
East Seventy-fifth street
Q. Did you have official relation with the last election? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. What were you? A. Captain in the ninth election district
Q. A Republican watcher? A. Yes, sir; and a challenger.
Q. Tell the committee what you saw on election day in regard
to the conduct of the police? A. There was a young gentleman
over there who seemed to have full sway of the polls.
Q. What is his name? A. I could not exactly say what his
name was; he was a watcher, I am pretty sure of that; when
I got there, early in the morning, I found a gentleman behind
the rail where he had no business, and I told the officer who
was guarding the polls to put him out, and he laughed at me
and said, "Yes;" of course, I told him he would either have to
get out or he would have to lock him up, and he said all right,




158


and he went over and spoke to the man anid told him to stop,
that we were objecting to it, and that he would blow a storm
over it, raise trouble about it
Q. What was it he told him he must stop? A. He said to the.one inside the rail-he ordered him to keep out, and at the
same time it was not two hours when he came in and done the
same thing, and he went to the Democratic chairman of the
board and got a list of the names of people who voted and those
who had not, and then he went out to the 150-foot limitQ. Where was the policeman when he got the list of names?
I&. In the polling place.
Q. How far from the man? A. About four feet
Q. Did he see him? A. Yes, sir; we drew his attention to It
Q. What did the policeman say? A. He didn't say anything.
Q. What did he do? A. He said, "This is the last time I
will tell you; you will either have to keep out or I will arrest
you," and that looked like a piece of knavery, and he came in
and did the same thing over.
Q. What did he do with the list of names? A. The policeman
sadid, "You want to keep out of here," and he laughed and he
said, "That is all right," and he got out to the 150-foot limit ia
front of the polls and he gave the men the list of names who had
not voted, and they went tracing around to the houses to pull
them out.
Q. How many times did you see the man go in and out there?!A. Three successive times.
Q. And' each time you called the attention of the officer to it?
L. Yes, sir.
Q. And he did not stop them? AL Yes; he simply told them
to keep out; he didn't do anything to prevent him from going in.
Cross-examined by Mr. Nicoll:
0. What is your business? A. Cigar paclier.
Q. Where? A. No. 446 East Seventy-sixth street.
Q. How long have you been there? A. I have been in the
trade four years.
Q. Are you by yourself, or employed by some one? A. I am
employed by Mr. Frank Gershy.
Q. How long have you been in his concern? A. About two
weeks.
Q. What were you doing before that? A. I was employed on
Second avenue and Sixty-fourth street
Q. For how long?   A. I was there one year with a  iga
manrfacturer.




159


Q. Where were yon before that? A. I drove for Lord & Taylorl
Grand street.
Q. You say you were a watcher?   A. I was a Republican
captain of that district.
Q. Of what election district? A. Of the ninth election district
Q. Where is that? A. Seventy-fifth street and First avenue.
Q. How long have you been captain there? A. The last Congressional election, January 30th.
Q. Are you captain now? A. I don't know that I will be captain now; if I am placed I suppose I will be there.
Q. Placed by whom?
(Objected to.)
Chairman Lexow.-The objection is sustained as immateriaL
Senator Cantor.-You see how sensitive they are?
Mr. Nico. — Yes.
Chairman Lexow.- It is discussing unnecessary matters. The
examination will-last long enough without going into immaterial
matters.
Mr Nicoll.-I do not understand what he means by being
' placed there."
Mr. Sutherland.- He means designated to serve as captain in
that place.
Senator O'Connor.-I wantto suggest that we have already
announced our position that we de not propose to permit this
inquiry to go into the question of Republican faction. We do
not care anything about that. We are here to get at the facts.
Mr. Nicoll.-I am not here for the purpose of embarrassing
this committee; I do not think I have used up one hour all told in
the examination of witnesses.
Senator O'Connor.-You have tried several times indirectly to
bring out matters that have been ruled out. Nolbody has asked
about the Democratic factions except yourself.  We do not
intend to have our attention or our time occupied in eliciting
facts for the purpose of finding out how many of these witnesses
belong to the Millholland organization or the Committee of
Thirty, or of the Platt organization.
Senator Cantor.-Are there three organizations?
Senator O'Connor.-I don't know anything about It, and
nobody can direct this inquiry into that channel.
Mr. Nicoll. —After your severe reproof, I do not feel like going
on at all.
Senator O'Connor. —No reproof at all




1CG


Proceedings of the third meeting of the committee, March 16,
184,. at 10:30 a m.
Present.- Senators Clarence Lexow, Edmund O'Connor, Daniel
Br'adley, Jacob E. Oantor, Charles T. Saxton, George W. Robertsoi1 and Cuthbert W. Pound, of the committee.
WVilliam A. Sutherland, of counsel for the committee.
Delancey Nicoll, of counsel for the police board.
J. Augustus Johnson, called as a witness, being duly sworn,
testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. In Eighty-eighth street
Q. What number? A. One hundred and five at present; my
house is across the street, but I am temporarily at 105.
Q. Then your house- you have lived in your house how long?
A, Since 1886.
Q. What is your business? A. A lawyer.
Q. What Assembly district is your residence in? A. Twelfth!Assembly district.
Q. What election district? A. First election district
Q. You were a Republican watcher at the last election? A. I
was a watcher clothed with a certifiente from  Mr. Bartlett,
authorized as a watcher on those credentials
Q. In the interests of Mr. Bartlett? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And a.s such you served at what polling place? A. I think
the number is 238 Third avenue; at any rate it is the polling
place of the first election district of the Twelfth Assembly.
Q. You arrived there in the morning about what time?  A.
About 20 minntes before 6; half-ast 5 or 20 minutes before 6.
Q. Please tell the committee all you saw or heard in reference
to the condnct of the police as bearing upon that election?  A.
Well, I noticed no occasion on the part of the police that might
be called an active commission; I saw no violence, but the acts of
omission were numerous.
Q. Those you may relate? A. Well, if it was the duty of the
police to prevent able men from being accompanied into the
booths as disabled men, then it was an act of omission
Q. State what you saw in that respect? A. Well, I saw four
or five men to all. appearance as able as myself to fold their
ballots..
Q. Yes? A. They were accompa.nied in the booth by one man,
who was the same man in each case.
Q. Who was he? A. I think his name was Hovey, but I am not
lsre.
Q. What relation did he occupy to the gathering there? A.
None whatever that I know of, except that he was one of the
number who was there all day in behalf, as I understood, of the
Democratic candidates.




161


' Q. And you saw this Hovey go into the booths with several
able-bodied men? A. I saw him go in several times with men to
all appearances able-bodied.
Q. To all appearance - in what respect? A. All about there;
I challenged several on the ground that they were to all appearance fully able, and required them to swear in their vote; one
man for example declared he was blind and could not see, but the
fact was called to his attention that he was able to see to all
appearance, and to see to work his way about, and then his reply
was he was near-sighted, that troubled him, and he had left his
eyeglasses home; and then to my request that he should go home
and get them, it was replied by this assistant, supposed to be
Hovey, of this representative of this Maynard ticketQ. A man whom ydu understood was Hovey? A. Yes, sir;
that it would cause loss of time to go home and get his eyeglasses, and he was allowed to go in; and he went in with four
or five other, one of whom complained that he could not fold his
ballot on the ground that he was a German, a grocer, and could
not distinguish the ticket apart.
Q. You say you protested against this? A. In each case.
Q.' Where were the policemen at that time? A. One inside the
booth and one outside the rail.
Q. How far from where you stood? A. Well, it varied from
two feet to 15 or 20 feet.
Q. But, where they could see and hear all that took place?
A. Entirely, yes; there were several men voted notwithstanding
my challenge, upon names which had been voted for before, in
three instances
Q. And where were the police then; in the same relative
position? A. In the same relative postion.
Q. They saw these men vote, and heard your challenge? 
Not only that, but policeman No. 212 discussed with him the
law, and looked over the book which I had in my hand to ascertain what bearing the law had on the subject, and seemed to
take an unusual and intelligent interest in all that passed.
Q. What did he say about the man that voted? A. He said it
is a difficult question; I hope you can find something in the law
that will make it clear; the point was that a man had voted under
the name of Frank H. Jessup, say about half-past 10 oclock; his
vote was received, and no challenge made, and about 1 o'clock
another man appeared and said his name was Frank H. Jessup;
I challenged his vote, on the ground that the vote had been
received on his name, and I told the police officer to arrest the
man who offered his vote.
Q.Did he do so? A. He made no effort to do so; the man
L        21 




162
that wanted to vote sneaked away in the crowd and disappeared.
and the men around the front door, on the steps, they closed in
in front of him so he could not be reached, and he disappeared;
at 3 o'clock another man appeared under the same name.
Q. You demanded of the policeman that he arrest this man?
A I demanded of the assembly that he be arrested.
Q. The policeman was there in hearing?  A. In hearing all
the time.
Q. And saw the man? A. I have not the slightest doubt that
he lheard and saw it all, as he was there all day.
Q. You say there was a crowd about the door?  A All day.
Q. How far was that from the booth?  A. Well, the throng
was from the booth-rail to the door; the distance was about four
to six feet.
Q. And the policeman saw the throng? A. He could not help
seeing it.
Q. And it was apparent that it was in this throng that this
tnan disappeared whose arrest you demanded? A. Yes, sir; and
It occurred in two other cases; Lewis 8. Moore, three votes were
tendered at different times, and two accepted; two votes were
accepted in the case of George Berg, whose case I noted a-t t;ie
time; I challenged in each case the second time; the vote was
made, in each case; in one case, the case of Frank S. Jessup, the
chairman of the inspectors of election on the argument of the
challenge finally concluded that he recognized Jessup as the
third man, and when I asked why he did not refuse the first llau
he said he was not noticing, and was writing, and did not look
up; and they took the second vote in each case, and on myQ. And in the case of Jessup took the three votes? A. No;
because the second Jessup disappeared on my dmand for his
arrest.
Q. But took the third man that offered to vote under that
name? A. Yes, sir; and decided that their course would be
in case of an excess of ballots in the box, that they would take
out any surplus and destroy them; I contended against that,
because I said it might be my vote you take out instead of the
wrong man's vote, and they said they could not help that, but
that was the course to be pursued.
Q. You may go on from there; what next? A. I observed
during the day men all around the front door, and within certainly the 150 feet legal distance; and to my surprise, in the
afternoon, there were three men with money in their hands
arranged between their fingers in a very prominent way, and
they made no concealment of it, and they passed rolls of bills
from one to another, and they stood about the door with these
bills in their hands.




163


Q. Were they in sight of the police? K. They were withtn
seeing distance of the police; it was not a large room, and they
were between the front door and booth-rail, and it was about
eight or 10 feet from the door.
Q. Exactly. A. In one ease one of these men, who were
either watchers for Maynard, or sympathetic friends, called to a
man who was depositing his vote at the time, who was putting
it in the box, and said, "Come outside and get a paster;" I
objected to that as interfering with the election, and, owing to
these challenges of mine, and the objections I made, these men
demanded that I be put out.
Q. Did they make that in an open manner? A. Demanded it
in an open, strong and violent manner, and pressed forward to
the rail with the view of assisting in my ejection; I called upon
the policeman, saying I had the number of this particular
policeman; I demanded from him all the protection that was
due to me as certified watcher; I called upon the inspector,
McHugh, also, saying he was responsible for any violence; I
had received courtesy all through the day, and the inspector
replied that I had been assigned a seat, and that courtesy would
be continued, but I must not dictate to the inspectors what
votes should be received, and should not interfere, all of which
I accepted humbly, and endeavored to behave myself in an
orderly manner; but I continued to challenge, and particularly
a man whose vote was received after 4 o'clock.
Q. What were the circumstances connected with that; what
happened? A. Well, 4 o'clock had come, and the question
arose whether they should not close the polls at once, and some
of the inspectors thought that they would be permitted to
receive all the votes that were tendered by men then in the
building; that they could close the outer door at that time, and
all who were in line at 4 o'clock could be received; but as the
name had been voted on once before I insisted on my challenge,
and the other challenge being entered on the record on the
inspector's books, not only because the name had been voted
on before, but because it was after 4 o'clock; I gave two
grounds for- the challenge.
Q. Was the policeman there then? A. All the time; when
violence was threatened me this policeman came and stood by
me; my impression is that it was with kindly intent.
Q. He stood by your side? A. He stood by my side, and
did not touch me, or threaten me there, and so r felt there was
a representative of the police department which was no)
aggressive to me.




164


Q. What happened in regard to the number of ballots found in
the box? A. As to that I can not say; I was 10 hours and a
half at the polls.
Q. It was not you who stayed at that count? A. And I was
hungry at half-past 4, and went away; three others came; I
was the only watcher for Bartlett during the day, but at halfpast 4, at that time one or two young men came in, who, on my
inquiry, said they were watchers for Bartlett, and I thought
my day's work was over, and went away.
Q. Is there anything else? A. I don't recall anything else.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Did you tell your story to the Bar Association conmlttee?
Ai I did not
Q. Who took the investigation of the election frauds? A. I
have not spoken to any of them on the subject.
Q. Why not? A. I did not happen to meet them.
Q. Are you a member of that association? A. I am net.
Q. Well, you know that that association did appoint a committee for the purpose of observing the conduct of the election
officers and police at the last election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that they collected a great deal of evidence on the subject which they exhibited to the extraordinary grand jury? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Did you think it worth while to tell your experience to the
bar of lawyers? A. I thought it worth while, if occasion presented, but I did not hunt around after theiL
Q. Where is your office in this city? A. No. 58 William street
Q. You know a great many of the lawyers who are on that
committee, do you not? A. I have no doubt I do.
Q. Did you ever speak to any of them about it? A. I had a
talk with quite a number of men who are members of the Bar
Association, but not that committee; in fact, it did not culminate
in any direct complaint on my part to any member of the
committee.
Q. You are aware, are you not, that during the month of
December the question of the conduct of inspector of election
and the police patrolmen and roundsmen was very largely discussed in this city? A. Yes
Q. And it was a matter of discussion in almost every edition of
the daily journal? A. Yes, sir.
Q. During all that time, you had this experience of youri
within your own knowledge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And never told it to anybody? A. Yes; I spoke of it everywhere.




165


Q. I mean you never told it to any of the authorities?.A. I
did not go with the purpose of taking a part in the investigation;
no.
Q. You did not communicate it to the grand jury? A. No.
Q. Or to the Bar Association committee? A. No.
Q. Why, now, have you broken your long silence and come
to the front?   A. The silence has been broken from  the
beginning; I have mentioned these facts in three separate public
addresses before large bodies of citizens; there was no silence
on my part, only I did not hunt up a complaining or investigating
body.
Q. Did you hunt up this investigating body, or did they hunt
you up? A. No, sir; it was a perfectly accidental meeting; I was
at the office of the Society of Colonial Wars, and a gentleman
came in whom I had seen before, and a general discussion or conversation took place, and I mentioned incidentally my experience.
Q. Where was this; in the society of what? A. Colonial Wars
Q. When was this? A. This was yesterday.
Q. You mentioned your experience to some gentlemen? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Is thatit? A. Yes-did you mean yesterday, or previous
occasions? I did on all previous occasions when it came up for
disoussion.
Q. Your presence this morning is due to your conversation with
the gentleman, yesterday? A. Yes; I presume it is.
Q. Because you subsequently received a subpoena, didn't you?
A. I did; I have it in my hand.
Q. You are a Republican in politics? A. I hive voted the
Republican ticket, but hold myself free in all municipal affairs
to vote for the best man; th'at is my position.
Q. That is, in national politics, and on national politics, you
are a Republican? A. I have been heretofore; I do not know
what I may be in the future; it depends upon the action of the
parties.
Q. You are a mugwump?
Mr. Sutherland.-I object to that.
A. I have always voted the Republican ticket, but I do not
hold myself bound to vote it hereafter unless I choose to.
The Chairman.- I do not think it is necessary to go into that.
Q. Are you associated with any Republican organization of this
city?
Mr. Chairman.- That is excluded. He has stated he is a
Republican, and we will accept that.
Mr. Nicoll.-You do not deny me the privilege of inquiring
whether he is the member of any political organization in this
city?




j
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16G


The Chairman. —hat has been excluded. He is a Republican.
We will accept that as a bias by which we are bound.
Mr. Nicoll.-The witness disclaims any bias and states he is a
Republican.
The Chairman.- The statement is recorded, as I understand it
Senator Cantor.- I understand the chairman of the committee
rules out any question that relates to any organization.
The Chairman.-We exclude anything with reference to any
particular faction. We exclude the question as to whether or
not the witness belongs to one or another of the political parties.
Senator Cantor. —Can it be asked if he belongs to any?
The Chairman.- That has been excluded.
Mr. Nicoll. —I do not wish to put myself in position as contending against the ruling of the committee, but I understand
Senator O'Connor to say and the chairman to repeat at the last
meeting of the committee that I was not to inquire into any
question as to whether a man belonged to one organization or
another, one faction or the other. I think you really misunderstood me, because I have no such intentions. %
The Chairman.- It is not just to waste time; it is simply
wasting time.
Mr. Nicoll.-It is a waste of time so far as this moment's
examination is concerned; but it would not be a waste of time
in future portions of the investigation if you announce to me
that I am not to ask any witness,if he is a member of any political organization.
The Chairman.-He stated he. was a Republican on national
politics and an independent on municipal affairs. We will
assume that he is biased to a certain extent if he is a Repubcan at all. There is no necessity to go further into the subject.
Mr. Nicoll.-I want to know whether he is active in politics.
The Chairman.- Ask him that question.
Mr. Nicoll.-And thereafter whether he is a member of an
organization.
The Chairman.- Not at all.
Senator Bradley.- He has stated he is a Republican but don't
confess he is a straight-laced one.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. I will ask him this question; I suppose it will be ruled out;
do you belong to any Republican organization in New York city?. I do not
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. I understand you to say, Mr. Johnson, that your present
owmplaints here against the police were those of-  A. I have
not said anything of the sort; I am making no complaints; I am
here by subpoena, and am here answering questions.




167
Q Well, if you are not making any complaints now, you have
made complaints before, haven't you? A. I have related the circumstances that occurred on election day in several public meetings in which I made addresses, and simply as a matter of fact
Q. I am not asking you about those; didn't you rmake complaints to police officers themselves? A. Yes; at the time they
occurred. 
Q. And now you are stating the fact, whether it be a fact, of a
complaint, or narrative, or statement, or whatever you choose
to call it?
Mr. Sutherland.-It was we who choose to call it; he is here
on subpoena.
Mr. Nicoll.- Whatever he chooses to call it, I say.
Mr. Sutherland.- He don't choose to call it anything at all.
Q. You are not stating the complaints which were made at
that time, and which were not acted upon then? A. I stated the
facts as they occurred that day.
Q. I think I understand you to answer, Mr. Sutherland, that
your criticisms, if you choose to call it that, perhaps that is a
more delicate way of treating it-your criticisms were those
which related to omissions by the police instead of active violations of the police ordinances, regulations or rules; that was it,
wasn't it? A. Yes, sir; except as far as omissions are active
violations; yes; it was their duty to prevent electioneering at the
door.
Q. Did you make complaint of the conduct of these roundsmen
to the superintendent of the police? A. I did not.
Q. In writing or verbally? A. I did not.
Q. Did you make any such complaint to the inspector of that
district? A. I did not.
Q. Or to the captain of police in that district? A. No.
Q. Did you make any complaint in writing, or verbally, to the
commissioners of police, or any of them? A. I did not.
Q. Well, that is all
By Senaior Bradley: 
Q. One question, please; in your opposition, or trying to prevent
all these frauds, did you in any one instance insist upon a policeman making an arrest? A. In the case of Frank EL Jessup, I
demanded the arrest of a man who attempted to vote on that
name, that was voted before
Q. Did you say to the policeman, I want you to arrt st this
man'! A. I said to the assembly and the group, I demand this
man's arrest
Q. Did you ask the policeman to arrest him. directly? A. I
can't say T did.




1.i3t


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I
i
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By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Were you facing the policeman when you made this state.
ment? A. He was not in front of me, but it was the group; the
policeman and inspectors constituted the group.
Q. He formed one of the group, did he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you addressed this conversation to the group?  K. To
the group.
Q. Consisting of how many? A. There were three inspectore
and poll clerk, and the policeman.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. Have you an office with Judge Bartlett? A. No, sir. 
Q. Or in the same building? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know him? A. Yes —no, I can not say I know hin,
personally; I never spoke to him in my life.
Q. Who suggested your acting as watcher? A. It was my own
desire; I applied for a certificate; I wanted to do my duty as a
citizen.
(Q. To whom? A. Lawyer named Charles B. La Baus, who has
an office at No. 54 Wall street
Q. The office of a Republican organization? A. No; no organization whatever; he was an acquaintance of mine; he said he
knew Judge Bartlett, and I said I would like to do my duty as
a citizen, and if he furnished me with a certificate I would endea,
vor to perform that duty.
Q. And did you consider your duty as a citizen completed when
you made these discoveries and did not make a complaint either
to the grand jury or to a police magistrate or a police board? A.
No, I did not consider my whole duty completed,:nd hence my
willingness to come here to-day to complete that duty.
Q. This is the first time you. exprezsed that willingness? A.
No; I expressed my wish, but it was never taken up.
Q. You considered your duty practically finished when the polls
closed? A. Yes, on that day; I was worn out by 10 hours and
a half work.
Q. Did you consider the violation of the, election laws of the
ballot-box was ufficient to prompt you as a citizen to nmake a
complaint to the proper authorities? A. I felt from that time
to this that I have not completed my whole duty, and have held
myself ready to respond and make my duty more complete and
uniform.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Mr. Johnson, will you tell your full duty in regard to thie
violation of law would have been to make complaints to punish
the offenders? A. Yes.




Q. That was your duty; so far as this story is concerned, you
have told it in public meetings, haven't you? A. Yes.
Q. What did you expect to accomplish in telling it there?
Mr. Sutherland.- Objected to as immaterial.
Chairman Lexow.-This has gone far enough. What pos
sible relevancy would there be if you established the fact that
he did not go any further. He has stated that time and again
By M. R. Sutherland
Q. How many policemen were there in attendance at the
polling place? A. One within the rail, and one outside; the
one outside the rail came inside the rail.s violence was
threatened me.
Q. And when you demanded the arrest of this man voting on
the name of Jessup there were but two policemen in the room?
A! There was not more than two, and I am not sure but the
second one was within the rail; he was in and out, outside the
door, and in the room, but not always inside the rail, a: the
other man was.
Q. So there could be no mistake in your demanding the
arrest? A. No; not at all.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. Were there any other Republican watchers there on that
day? A. None that I know of; and that reminds me of an
omitted answer I might have made to Mr. Nicoll; there was no
one there to corroborate my statements; there were eight or
ten men to represent the alleged Tanmany organization, and
some of them admitted they were, and I thought that my statements might be contradicted by eight or ten Am their side; I
felt if there had been another bIartlett watcher there he would
have corroborated my statements and there would have been
more effect in my statements
Q. So that is the cause why you did not make this complaintr 
A. Your remark suggests another reason.
Q. Suggest a reason? A. Suggested a reason that passed
thriough my mind at that time.
Q. It did not occur to you? A. Not at the moment Mr. Nicoll
spoke to me.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. And this question about your being corroborated before
oocurred to you? A. Yes, sir; frequently before.
L        22




170


Q Did you speak to me about it yesterday? A I spoke of it
yesterday as a reason why I had not made an affidavit, because
there was no one there informed about it but me.
Q. Was there a Republican inspector of election there on tha4
day? A. He was; but I protested frequently, and he said
these Tammany men will do what they please. and I can not
do anything; my impression was from that day's work that he waa
not in sympathy with anything 1 said or did; I was thoroughly
disgusted with his attitude on that occasion
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What was his name? A. I think Trillard.
Q. Was that his first name? A. I think E. N.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. Where does he live? 'A He is a tailor on Fourth avenue
near Twenty-first street.
Hyma; Goldman, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherlandl
Q. Where do you reside? A. It was morning; It was halfpast two when I came inside the polling booth.
Q. Where do you live? A. I live at 72 Eldridge street.
Q. And did you live there in last election time? A No, I wm
living at 78 Orchard street
Q. And where did you vote last election? A I was voting 1t
Broome street, the twelfth.
Q. The Twelfth Assembly district? A. The Twelfth eles
tion, and the Third Assembly district.
Q. Were you a Republican captain at that time?- AK Yes, sir.
Q. Did you challenge any votes?  A. I challenged a man's
vote, and I asked a policeman — I made a charge against him,
and the policeman did not take evidence —did not take hinW
along; and I went aside from the vote and a man struck me in the
face behind the policeman. 
Q. -Where was the policeman when this man struck you?.
He was by me.
Q. And after you challenged this man? A Before I challenged this man, and after, he struck me in the face, behind the
polioeman's fce, and the policeman did not say nothing; and he
asked some fellows around, " Give it to him," and the other policeman said, " Don't touch this man; " and I went to report that to
the headquarters in the district where I belonged; and the mas




171


told me, "Don't you be afraid, and go back," and I came bae,
and the policeman would not let me inside, And I showed 1my
watching paper, and he made a charge against me, and took me
before the judge, and fined me $10.
Q. Had you done anything except to challenge those men? A
I did not do anything at all.
Q. Except to challenge this vote? A. To challenge this vote.
Q. Did he make any complaint against the man that struck
you? A. I did not make nothing.
Q. Did the policeman do anything against him? A. No.
Q. But he made a complaint against you? A. He made a complaint against me.
Q. Whereabouts did he take you to do that? A. He took me
to the Eldridge street police station-house, Captain Devery.
Q. Who was in charge of the police station when you were
there? A. Captain Devery.
Q. What did the policeman say to Captain Devery when he got
you there? A. He said I made too much noise.
Q. And then what did Captain Devery say? A. He did not
say anything; he said, I am in business and should not sl'ck to
politics; I need not interfere with politics, as I am in business.
Q. What is your business? A. I have a cigar fattory.
Q. Who was it that fined you $10? A. Judge Ryam
Q. Was he in the same room with Captain Devery? A. No.
Q. Then they took you from Captain Devery over to Judge
Ryan? A. From Captain Devery to Essex Market
Q. Who told him to take you to Judge Ryan? A. The Tammany captain told the policeman: "I make a charge against him
and take him to the station-house;" and he made a charge
against me, and I did not know anything about it; he asked my
name, and so and so, and then he sent me to Essex Market with
the judge, and he asked me the same questions, and what is my
business, and my name, and $10 fine; that was all.
Q. That was all? A. Because I was a Republican watcher.
Cross-examination waived.
Mr. Edward R. Duffy, called as a witness, being duly sworn,
testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you live? A. One hundred and twenty-five W.
Sixtieth street.
Q. Where did you vote last fall? A. In the fifteenth of the
Nineteenth Assembly district




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Q. Did you visit other polling places besides your own? A. I
visited all in the Nineteenth Assembly district
Q. State what you observed, Doctor, there that day in regard
to the conduct of the police? A. I found some of the police very
obliging, especially to the Tammany Hall heelers.
Q. Just give us an instance that came under your observation?
A. As a candidate for the Assembly last fall, I made it my business first to visit all the election districts in my Assembly district, and on my visit to the election district on Ninth avenue
between Fifty-fifth and Fifty-sixth street - on my entrance there
I found policeman 1255 in the booth with a voter.
Q. Twelve hundred and fifty-five was his number? A. Yes, sir;
I immediately went out to look for the Republican captain, and
could not find him, and on my return again I found the same
policeman standing inside the rail, alongside a little shelf, where
there was a voter, and he was showing him-where he was
showing him how to fold a ballot; I said, "Officer, what are you
doing there?" "What do you think I am doing?" I said," I want
to know what you are doing; " I am trying to show this man how
to fold the ballot;" he said, "What is it your business?" I said,
" I will make it my business;" I said, " Get out of there;" he said,
" won't get out of there," and I said, "Who is the chairman of
the polling booth," and there was a boy, 21 or 22 years of age, and
he said, " I am;" I said, "I want you to take the policeman out of
there;" he said, "Whc! are you?" I said, "I am a citizen;" he
said, "Show me your credentials;" I said, "What credentials?"
I said, " Officer, come out of there," and he said, " The chairman
put me here, and I am going to stay here until he puts me out;"
I then went to the twenty-second precinct station-house and
saw the roundsman and stated the case to the roundsman; the
romudsman referred me to the sergeant, and while I was standing
there a patrol wagon came in, and the sergeant attended to the
patrol, and then I made a complaint, and that is all I heard
about it.
Q. What did he say when you made your complaint? A. He
said he would see about it
Q. You never heard anything further about it? A. That is all
I ever heard.
Q. State the next case that occurred?  A. After going the
rounds of the district, I made it my business to go to my own
election district, and I stood there all the afternoon in and out of
the polls, and they were voting everything and anything
coming along.
Q. Give us the instances; specify them? A. In one instance
when I saw it was going too far, I said, "Mr. Chairman, what
Is the matter with this man you are administering the oath to? X




173
he says, RHe Is deaf;" I said, "Deafness is no physical dis
ability;" "Never mind," said a bystander-" never mind, Mr
Chairman, what you say goes here;" he went in the booth
Q. Where was the policeman? A. Outside.
Q. Was he where he could see or hear that? A. I don't suppose he was
Q. Take up the next case where the policeman was present?
Chairman Lexow.-I would suggest that you limit yourself
to where the policemen were present
A. I would not swear positively whether the policeman was
present; I know the policeman knew it, because I raised a row
there, and he must have known it
Q. Was he within hearing distance? A. He was oatside the
door.
Q. Was that within hearing distance? A. He knew it afterwards.
Q. Did you call his attention to it? A. I don't think I did; I
would not be positive.
Q. Tell us anything that ocured under the observation of the
police, aside from those you have already narrated
Mr. Nicoll.-He has already narrated one
Q. Continue, Mr. Duffy? A. I can not recall at the present
time anything more in reference to the police.
Mr. Sutherland.-You may cross-examine now, Mr. NiciL
Oross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. That is all you know about it — about the police? A. That
is all I know.
Q. You made some complaint about the misconduct of election
officers? A. I did, sir.
Q. So far as the police are concerned, it is confined within the
transaction which you had with the sergeant, which was unacted
upon; that is all you have against the police? A. That is all I
have against the police.
Mr. Nicoll. —Very well, that is alL
Th.omas J. Lanning, called as a witness, being duly sworn, tesified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. No. 6 Spring street
Q. And you have lived there how long? A. About in the neighborhood of 10 years.
Q. Where did you vote last fall? A. In No. 4 Spring street
Q. And what election district is that, and what Assembly distriot? A. Twenty-seventh election district and Third Assembly
districtS




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Q. Did you hold any official relationship to the election last
taAl? A. Well, I was appointed a watcher.
Q. And in that capacity you visited what polling place? A
Tlhe thirty-second election district, and the third.
Q The thirty-second and the third; tell the committee anything you saw in regard to the conduct of the police? A. Well,
I visited the polling place in the neighborhood of six; everything was calm until about half-past seven; I saw a line formed
of voters. 
Q. Was it in the morning? A. In the morning; I saw a line
formed of voters, and I questioned some of them, and they told
me that was all right; however, I see one man I did not think
was entitled to vote; I told him, "If you vote I will have you
arrested;" was pulled at, struick, kicked, thumped and thrown
in the street
Q. Where was the policeman at that time? A. He was keeping the line in order on the other side.
Q. How far was he from you? A Inside of six feet
Q. Did you make any outcry about it? A. I was told if I
made any more unnecessary trouble my head would be carried
adoff.                                             I
Q. Who told you that? A. The Democratic watcher.
Q. Where was the policeman when that was said? A. He
was within about hearing distance.
Q. Did he make any move to protect you in any way? A
None whatever; I was told afterwards that I was lucky to get
off with my head on.
Q. Confine yourself to what took place in the presence of the
police; is that all there is of that instance? A. Well, there
was another instance; I saw the Democratic watcher go deliberately in the booth.
Mr. Nicoll.-I understand you, Mr. Chairman, that you did
not care for those matters, unless the police were present
The Witness.-This was pertaining to the police.
Q. Where was the policeman when this watcher went into
the booth? A. He was standing along side of me, and said,
"This is more than I can stand," and he takes this watcher and
puts him outside the street; there was a complaint went over
to the station-house that the policeman was inside, and he was
fetched to the desk, and he was told he had no business inside,
and his business was to remain outside.
Q. State what you saw yourself? A Then the policeman
caame to me;'he told me he heard I went over to the stationhouse and made a complaint; I told him it was no such thing,
and I did not make any complaint, and that was done, and they
wanted to shove the blame on me.




175


Q. Never mind as to that; the policeman came back from the
station-house? A. Yes, sir; and he was told to remain on the
outside
Q. How do you know he was told that? A. Because he told
me; the policeman told me afterwards about the complaint,
that it was made by me, and he was not allowed to go in the
polling place any more.
Q. Anything else? A. Well, no; that is about all.
Oross-examination by Mr. Nicoll,
Q Do I understand you to say that you, on arriving at the
polls in the morning, you saw a number of people standing in
the line ready to vote? A. Yes, sir; not exactly at that time;
but between that time and half-past seven; I saw a line formed,
at the very lowest 40 men.
Q. And among those 40 men was one man whom         you
thought had not the right to vote? A. A man whose right I
questioned.
Q. You questioned his right; do you mean to say you picked
this man out in the middle of the line and notified him that
you would have him arrested in ease he attempted to vote?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was your position on that day, a watcher? A. A
watcher.
Q. Don't you know what the law is in regard to the matter of
challenging men? A. I cautioned that man.
Q. Don't you know when you have the right to challenge a man
under the election laws? A. When he votes.
Q. You understand, don't you, that the proper time for challenging the man is when he comes up to vote, about the time his
ballots ought to be given? A. That is what the law says
Q. You know that provision of the law, don't you; don't you
know you were doing an entirely irregular thing in notifying a
man li advance, as he stood in line with 40 others, that you were
going to have him arrested? A. No, sir, last year was an exceptional year in regard to voting.
Q. So you made a law for that year for yourself, did you? A.
No, not exactly.
Charles H. Murray, called as a witness, being duly sworn, tea
tfiled as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
'. Where do you reside? A. No. 25 Madison avenue.




176


Q. What is your business? A. Lawyer.
Q. In what Assembly district did you vote last fall? W. In the
Eleventh.
Q. And in what Assembly district did you spend your time in
the main? A. In the Third.
Q. What was your official relation to the Third Assembly district? A. I am the Republican leader in the Third Assembly district
Q. And as such had charge of the Republican interests on last
election day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you visit the various polling places on that day? A.
I did.
Q. In company with whom? A. First by myself, and then in
company with John Sabine Smith, the president of the Republican county committee.
Q. You may tell the committee what you saw that day in
regard to the conduct of the police? A. I left my house in the
morning quite early to drive to the Third Assembly district; I
visited a number of the polling places of the Third Aseiably district, and found the Republican watchers of the Third Assembly
district were excluded from within the guard-rail; 1 went to
police headquarters and saw Mr. McClave; Mr. McClave, and
mysvelf, and Mr. Superintendent Byrnes were there; Mr. Byrnes
told me that he would see that the law was impartially executed,
and if I had any complaint of any specific election he wished I
should designate it; I told him that I had no specific complaint
against any one election district, but against every election district of the entire Third Assembly; he thereupon called Inspector
Williams and told the inspector that he wished him to go through
the entire Assembly district; I had no sooner left the euperintendent's office and reached the stoop of the police headquarters
than I met a young man who said he was a Republican watcher
in the thirty-fifth election district, I think, of the Third Assembly,
and he had been thrown out of that election district, I went back
with him to Superintendent Byrnes, and he called Inspector
MceAvoy, I think, to rectify that case; then I went through my
election district, and on the way I met Mr. Smith.
Q. Mr. John Sabin Smith? A. Mr. John Sabin Smith; he left
his cab and got into mine, and we went to the Assembly district
together; we found that the watchers were excluded from behind
tho guardrail; that electioneering was going on in the polling
rl:e(es, and there were a number of cflicers that we complained
to —
Q. Police officers? A. Police officers —for the violation of
the law in excluding the Republican watchers from within the




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177
gnard-rail; during that time the most flagrant abuses, I made a
memoranda of certain officers who refused to ieed our demand
to place Republican watchers within the guard-rail, and after
which refusal we went to police headquarters, to see Inspector
Byrnes again, and he started another —or one of the police
inspectors down to the election district complained of to investigate the complaint 
Q. Which were those cases; what cases were they you
reported? A. There was in the thirty-sixth election district of the
Third Assembly district a Republican watcher so excluded fron
within the guard-rail; Mr. Smith and myself demanded that he
should be placed within the guard-rail.
Q. What policeman was that? A. Policeman 1165.
Q. What, if anything, did he do or say in response to that
demand? A. The Democratic chairman of the board refused
to permit our watcher to go within the guard-rail; the guard-rail
was open, and the police officer said that if he went within the
glard-rail he would put him out; the guard-rail was open, and
the Republican watcher went within the guard-rail; this policeman stepped behind the man and pushed him from within the
guard-rail; I went after that to police headquarters again and
Superintendent Byrnes detailed Inspector McAvoy, I think;
Inspector McAvoy drove to that election district, and told the
officer that he wished him to do his duty.
Q. Were you there when he came there? A. I was there when
he went there; I followed him in my cab; thereupon, the Democratic inspector of election protested, and Inspector McAvoy
told him he wished to hear nothing from him, that this oficer
must do his duty; another caseQ. Did you leave then? A. I left then.
Q. Very well. A. Another case was in the twenty-sixth election district; there were two police officers, Nos. 2658 and 2727,
I think, were the numbers; they refused admission to the Eepublican watcher.
Q. And what did you say or do to them? A. We insisted that
the Republican watcher had a right under the law to stand
within the guard-rail, and they refused; we went at once to police
headquarters and Inspector Byrnes or Superintendent Bsrn,.'
sent down another inspector.
Q. Did you follow him back? A. I think we did.
Q. What took place after you returned to this election district? A. And then I think that the watcher was placed within
the guard-rail.
Q. The superintendent's instructions were obeyed then? A.
They were obeyed when the inspector was there.
Q. Did you remain there after the inspector went away? A.
No, I was too busy to remain.
L        23




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Q. Did you go back there again afterward?  A. I don't think
I did.
Q lDid you go back te any of these places where the inspector
had come and put the watcher behind the rail, so that you learned
whether he remained behind the rail or not? A. Not frnm
my own knowledge that I recall, I think there was one oase
from my own kncwledge that I recall, I think there was one case
tlhat I weit to, which was in the afternoon, and we insisted
upon the Rit ublicaln inspector being placed behind the guardrail.
Q. Republiean watcher, you mean?  A. Yes, being placed
behind the guard rail; that was refused, and the police precinct
and the tenth was on the opposite side of the street, and they
csnt over for Captain Creeden; Captain Creeden came over, and
ke said he could not interfere with the matter, that he would
rest it with the board of inspectors, of election; I said I have no
time to argue the matter; I only want to know if the Republican
watcher is not to be placed within the guard-rail, for I have been
to see the superintendent of police previously during the day a
number of times, and he has assured me that he would ilforce the
law; I then asked if Inspector Williams had been there, and they
told me had; as I was getting into my cab a man, who I was told
was the Tammany captain of that election district, whose name I
do not know, said, "All right, we will permit the Republican
watcher to come within the guard-rail;" he then went behind the
guard-rail.
Q. And then Captain Creeden went back, I suppose? A. Cap.
tain Creeden then retired.
Q. Any other cases within your knowledge? A. Well, there
were a number of other cases; there were only a few of the cases
*f ihe numbers of the offieprs T took; one was in the twentyfifth election district, officer No. 1027.
Q. And what was it he did or said? A. I don't recall speelfi-,ally, Mr. Sutherland; in the fourteenth election district, oflicer
No. 1959 — de not recall specifically what he did, except that
the watcher was in each of these instances excluded from the
guard-rail.
Q. And that fact was apparent to the policemen? A. Undoubtedly.
Q. He was where he could see? A. Why, he was present; in
eighth election district, officer No. 1437; those were the specific
cases that I noted down; what I have said refers to the whole
Assembly district.
Q. Is there any other circumstance now that you have not
detailed that you wish to give the committee? A. I think that
is the main evidence within my own specific knowledge, Mr.




Sutherland; of course the other reports which I have are simply
hearsay evidence.               a        -
Cros-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
QO You were the Republican candidate for istrict attorney?
iA. 1 was the Republican candidate for district attorney.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. You did not live in the Third Assembly district? A. No.
Q. You live in the Eleventh. A. Yea
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Were any of these policemen who refused to go inside the
guard-rail disciplined? A. Disciplined? not that I know of.
Q. When the inspectors came down there and saw these policemen were acquiescing in a violation of the law, did they make
charges against the policemen? A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Did they remove the policemen from the polling place? A.
Not to my knowledge.
Q Did they not attempt to put any other policemen in the
place of those men who had been acquiescing in the violation of
the law? A. Not to my knowledge.
The Chairman. —That is all
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You said in your direct examination that you met a young
man on the street who said that he was ejected from the polling
place-a Republican watcher? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he say, or specify to you who ejected him? A. He
specified to me that he was a Republican watcher sent down by
the Republican Club, upon my application, to watch the poll; and
that he had been thrown bodily from the polling place by the
Tuamany men.
Q. Not by the policemen? A. Not by the policemen.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. Did you have a Republican district captain in oharge of the
election district? A. Certainly.
Q. All of them? A. All of the polls.
Q. And Republican inspectors? A. Unfortunately, the Republican party had but one inspector.
Q. But they were named by you for your district? A. They
were named by myself.




180


Q. All the Republican inspectors? A. They were named by
the organization of the Third Assembly district.
Q. Through you? A. Yes, sir.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did this young man claim he claimed police protection and
did not receive it? A. I do not recall, Mr. Bradley, what he did
say.
By Mr Sutherland:
Q. There was no question that the police did interfere for his
protection? A. Not at all; otherwise, he would not have come
up to police headquarters
Mr. Sutherland. —Two of Mr. Kempner's witnesses I would
ike to call now.
Lewis Cort, called as a witness on behalf of the ommittee
was duly sworn, and testified as follows:
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. No. 317 Fifth street
Q. Is that your place of business? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you live there last fall? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that within the Assembly district where Mr. Kempner
was a candidate? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know Mr. Otto Kempner? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have his lithograph displayed in your window?
A. That is what T heard; I was not home at the time, but when I
came home I heard -      t
Q. Were you tdere when the lithograph was taken down? A.
No. sir.
Q: Did you have any talk with any of the offioers about it?.
No.
Q. Did your son have any talk with the officers about it? A.
Yes.
Q. Where were you at that time? A. I was not in when I
heard the officer was in; I was outside in the yard.
Q. Who was the officer? A I don't know the officer; I did not
see him.
Q. Did you hear what he said to your son? A. No, ir.
Q. Did you hear what your son said to him? A. He anled
him outside.
Q Did you hear the talk? A. No, sir.




181


Q. What did this officer say to your son?
Senator Cantor.-I object; this man did not hear anything.
A. I could rot hear him.
Mr. Sutherland.-That is all, then; we should have sul
poenaed the son.
Q. What is your son's name? A. Christian.
Julius Stollmeyer, being duly called as a witness on behalf
of the committee, was duly sworn, and testified as follows;
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Two hundred and twenty-five
East Seventh street.
0. Did you live there last fall? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where is your store? A. Four hundred and five East
Fifth street.
Q. Is that within the Assembly district where Mr. KeEpner
was a candidate last fall? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know Mr. Kempner? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have his lithograph in your window? AL I di.
Q. For how long were his lithographs hanging there? A. I
would not state any definite time; it might have been a week or
two weeks,.or it might have been a month.
Q. Were they taken down finally? A. No, sir.
Q. Did anybody come into your place to talk about.kere
being taken down? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who were they? A. I could not say who they were.
Q. Was Mr. Kempner there at that time? A. He was Awe
at the time, standing behind the two men who came in te
store.
Q. And he was there when they came out? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sutherland.-That is the instance that Mr. Kempner
testified to; he identified those men.
Q. What did the men say to you? A. They said to me aat
they wished me to remove the lithograph of Mr. Kempner out
of the window, and I told them they would have to wait watl
the boss came home, because I have a partner, and Mr. Kempner stood there behind these men, and I did not want to Bnsrt
him or the men, because I did not know who they were, and
that was all that was said at the time; so they went out and we
did not remove it; we kept it there, and that is all that I kneow
so far as the lithographs are concerned.
Q. Did you ever see them again? A. No, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Kempner come right in, after they went out? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And he talked to you about it? A. Yes, sir.




182


Q. Mr. Kempner then inquired of you what those men were
asking of you T A. Yes, sir.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. What is your business?. Commission business; butter
and eggs.
Cross-examination waived.
Adam Reinhardt, called on behalf of the committee, was duly
sworn, and testified as follows: 
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Can you talk English well? A. Not much; will you give
me a man who can speak English?
Chairman Lexow. —Will Mr. Kempner act as interpreter for
this witness?
Mr. Nicoll. —He has been sworn already as an interpreter.
Q. (Examined through the interpreter, Mr. Kempner.) Where
do you reside? A. Two hundred and seventy-two rIvington
street.            I
Q. What is your business? A. Shoemaker.
Q. Where did you vote last fall? A. Sixty-eight Columbia
street
Q. In what election district is that? A. I have forgotten that
Q. Did you see a policeman there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he do? A. When I got my ballots I went into my
booth, and the policeman came in with me; he took out one of
the ballots and told me to vote that: I looked at it and saw the
name of Maynard on the ballot, and I said, "No; I will not vote
the Tammany Hall ticket;" I then told him to. go out of here, I
can take care of the ballots myself.
Q. What else occurred? A. Three times I told him to go out,
but he refused to go, and I threw the ballots at his feet; then I
said to him, "Here, we are deprived of our liberties through
you," and they laughed at me.
Q What else did you do? A. As I went out in the street a man
camue after f?.e. aind told me to conoe in and votte;, tihere wonld
be considerable trouble; I said, "Not more this year; that
I won't do;" I told him, "I will go, to-morrow, to the commissioners and make comnlaint against the policeman," and he
laughed at me; that is all.
Q. Did you vote? A. No.
By Senator Saxton:
Q. Did you make any complaint to the commissioners? A. No;
a man told me to keep quiet, as there would be other complaints
made by others




183


Cross-examination by Mr. Niooll:
Q. Who told youl tlhat? A. A man by the name of Biennrm
Q. Did you make any complaint to the captain at the peSee
station-house? A. No.
Q. Why did you not vote? A. Because the policeman waned
me to vote the Tammany ticket, and I did not want to vote it.
Q. You were sent for to come back and vote; why didn't you go
back and vote? A. Because they said they would get into Mg
trouble, and I said I wanted them to get into big trouble.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. What was the name of this policeman? A. Mulligan
Lewis Berger, called on behalf of the committee, duly swemr
testified as follows (through Interpreter Kempner):
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Eighty-nine Columbia street
Q. Where did you vote last fall?  A. Sixty-eight Colmabia
street.
Q. Who was the policeman in attendance at that voting pbee?
A. I don't know him.
Q. Do you vote at the same place with Mr. Reinhardt? A. I
don't know where Mr. Reinhardt voted, and 1 don't know hrim
Q. You saw a policeman there; did you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he do? A. He came in with me into the room.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. What do you mean by that; do you mean the booth? A. I
the polling place.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Did he go into the booth with you? A. Yes, sfr.
Q. Did you ask him in? A. No, sir; I was entirely srprse
Q. What was said or done? A. He took the things and la}d
them toet1her and T felt very bad.
Q. What things did he taken and lay together? A. Tbwse
papers that are used for the elecdion.
Q. The police took them out of your hand? A. He took laem
from me, folded them, and gave me the one that was to be sed.
Q. What did he say when he did that? A. Nothing; that you
should put these in this hand and those in that hand and give
them to the man.
Q. Have you ever seen this policeman before? A. I wil t
you how it is; I go early to work and come home late -




184


Q. Can you describe him to me in any way? A. No; I can
not
Q. What is your business? A. I have been tailoring, but
now I have a sausage business.
By Senator Saxton:
Q. What was the hour when you voted? A. Tn the morning.
Q. What hour in the morning? A. I can not tell exactly.
Q. About what time?   A. It can possibly be 8 o'clock;
exactly, I can not tell.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Was the same policeman that you see on the beat usually
the one that was there that day? A. I bother very little
about those people; I am 13 years here, and I have never been
to such a plgoe.
Cros-examined by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Did you ever vote before? A. I did.
Q. Did you ever vote under the new ballot law before? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. When? A. A few times.
Q. When before November, 1893? A. Every time there was
an election; I always voted.
Q. Did you ever receive any instruction prior to election day
as t how to fold your ballots? A. No.
Q. Did you know how to fold your ballot? A. The first
time I was told; and so I know.
Q. Who told you? A. Mr. Seelig.
Q. On the morning in question were there voters at the polls
at the time you arrived there? A. Yes, sir; there were several.
Q. Where was the policeman, when you passed through the
guard-rail? A. He was entirely inside, and I came, he opened
the door for me, and went in with me.
Q. That is manifestly impossible; where was the policeman
when you passed through the guard-rail towards tht ballot
clerk? A. He was by the polling booths, and as I came, he
opened the door of the polling booth and went in with me.
Q. Did you give him your ballots? A. He gave them to me.
Q. Did you not receive your ballots from the ballot clerk?
A. Yes, sir; I got them, but then he took them and folded them
together; I felt very bad; I was sick; I was feeling bad, and ]
was entirely surprised when he came in with me.
Q. Did the ballot clerk give you your ballots? A. He did.




185
Q. Did you give them to the policeman? A. I went into the
balloting place and he came in after me and took the ballots
from me and folded them.
Q. Could you not fold them? A. He folded them, and I
folded them.
Q. Could not you fold them yourself? A. I could also fold
them myself; but he came in and I was feeling bad, but I was
very much surprised.
Q. Were you feeling so badly that you could not fold your
ballots? A. I was.
By Senator Saxon:
Q. Did you ask the election officer to assist you or for anybody to assist you in the booth? A. I asked no one.
Q. Did you say anything to the policeman at all, before you
got in the booth? A. Not a thing.
Q. Did you go in the booth first with your tickets? AL
He opened the door for me; I went in, and he came in after me
Q. Had anything been said up to that time, between you and
the policeman at all? A. He said to me, "Take these in this
hand and take the other six in the other hand;" I could have
folded them myself slowly.
Q. Did you ask the policeman, after you were in the booth,
to come and fold the ballots for you? A. No, sir.
Q. Did the policeman ask you to give the ballots over to
him? A. No.
Q. Then you say the policeman took the ballots out of your
hand without saying anything to you? A. Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did the policeman tell you which ballot to vote? At. No,
isimply folded them and told me, " That you give up and that you
takle in the other hand."
Q. Were you feeling badly,.because the policeman followed
you into the' booth.
Senator Cantor.-I object; are you trying to make the witness testify the way you want him to?
Q. Why were you feeling badly? A. Excuse me; tha, is no
-question.
By Senator O'Connor:
Q Did you at any time wish for assistance? X. No, never.
By Mr. Nicoll:. Were you ill physically or simply downhearted because of
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I


180
Se policeman's action? A. I had a little headache; T suffer from
headache.
Mr. Sutherland.- The witness Is doubtless explaiin  why
he did not resent this intrusion.
By Senator Cantor:
Q.Do you read English? A. No., sir.
Q.Did you read any one of the ballots handed to you by the
ballot clerk? A. So much, I know.
Q. Did you read the ballots that, were folded and put into the
box? A. I did.
Q. And that was the ticket that you wanted to vote? A. No,
ft was not.
By Senator Saxton:
Q. D)o you know the names on the ballots so that you knew
what ballot you wanted to vote? A. I can not distinctly recollect
Q. T ask you 'if you knew them, at that time, so that yov kn ew
what ballot youi wanted to vote? A.. I could distinguish the ba1 -lot that I wva-ntfd to vote.
Mr. Nicoll.- Were you in Mr. Keinpner's district?
Mr. Kempuer.- N o; he was not.
W&dam Pcnadrecalled.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. What was the street and number of the place. where you
voted? A. _N'o. (18 Columbia street.
Senator S8ax ton.- This witness voted at the same place with
Mfr. Reinhiardt?
M1r.'S #.,herl an d. — Yes.
By Senator Saxton:
Q. What hour in the morning did you voteI A. T voted in
the afternoon at about 3 o'clock.
Senaftor Saxton.- He has stalted the name of the policeman.
Mr. Sutherland.- Yes, he gave it as Mulligan; I have now
Identified the polliIng place as the same place where the last
witness voted.
August Adel, called on behalf of the committee, duly sworn,
testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. No. 216 East Seventy-seventh
street.




187
Q. How long have you lived there? AW. I have lived there now
two months or more.
Q. Where did you live last fall? A. In No. 1334 Third avenue.
Q. In what election district did you vote last fall? A. The
last election, do you mean?
Q. Yes.  A. In the Twenty-second Assembly; the eleventh
election district.
Q. Did you have any official relations to that election? A. I
did; I was a watcher.
Q. You were what was called the Republican captain? A. I
was acting as Republican captain.
Q. In that capacity did you visit more than one election place?
A. I did.
Q. What did you observe in regard to the conduct of the
policeman at your own election precinct, if anything? A. I have
nothing to say about that.
Q. It was in which one? A. In the sixth election district
Q. When did you go there? A. In the afternoon about 3 o'clock.
Q. What did you observe, if anything, in regard to the conduct
of the police there? A. I went in and they fired me out.
Q. Did you have your certificate as a watcher with you? A
Yes, sir.
Q. Did you exhibit it? A. I did.
Q. What was going on when you went in? A. I was taken i
as a witness on a case of a deaf and dumb man, that they claimed
had no right to vote.
Q. And this deaf and dumb man —had his residence been
burned or what was it in reference to him? A. A day or two
before election, they moved him from one house to the next house;
the party that he worked for has four houses, and he has to take
care of the four houses, and he sleeps in those floors that are not
rented.
Q. So that when he came to respond to his place of residence;
it was not the same number as he had registered from? A. Yes,
sir; he didn't register from that place; he was registered before.
Q. Then there was a dispute about his right to vote? A. Yes,
sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Was this at the special election? W. Yes, sit.,
Q. You mean the election last January? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Then the dispute arose about this man's right to vote and
you were sent for as the Republican watcher? A. Tes, sir.


---— 3




188
Q And you went in? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who did you address when you went in? A. The chairman
of the boarUa; I told him I thought the man had a right to vote.
Q. What else was said? A. The policeman caught hold of me
and put me out of the door.
Q. Do you know his number? A. I do not; I have got it
somewhere; I have been hunting for it, but I have not found it
Q. Do you know the name of the policemen? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall his number? A. I do not; I think I have it
oa a book somewhere, but I have not had time to look for the
book to find it 
Q. Did you remonstrate with the policeman? A. I did; I told
him he had no right to put me out, and that I was a watcher and
I showed him my certificate to prove it
Q. You finally went back there again? A. He was no sooner
i than 1 was in too.
Q. You followed him right back? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who went in with you? A. Mr. Page.
Q. Who was Mr. Page? A. He ran for the Assembly, tfie
election before last; last fall.
Q. Was he a watcher on this election? A. He was, and there
was somebody else: I do not remember who he was.
Q. And you had been sent for from the place where you were,
to come down and assist in this difficulty? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There is another circumstance, I believe, that you have to
relate, is there hot? A. Yes, sir; that was last fall.
Q. Where was that? A. In the Twenty-second Assembly; the
benth election district.
Q. What occurred there? A. They were giving pasters and
everything right around the door, and inside at the railing, and
in going in the booth with men.
Q. Who was this "they"? A. The Democratic workers and
watchers.
Q Where were the policemen when this was going on? A.
Sitting inside the room.
Q. Where they could see what was going on? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you protest to the policemen against it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did they do? A. They said nothing.
Q. Did they do anything? A. No, sir.
Q. You say while you stood there you saw pasters given out?
3. Yes, sir.
Q. And put into the booths? A. I saw them put over the top
of the booth.
Q. And you saw workers go inside of the booths? A. Yes, sir;
and I called the attention of the policeman to it.


-----




189
Q. Can you tell the names or the aumbers of either of those
policemen? A. I can not
Q. But this was the last fall election? A. Yes, sir; last fall.
Q. And this was in what district? A. The tenth election district of the Twenty-second Assembly.
Mr. Sutherland.- The police records, no doubt, will show who
those officers were.
Q. What time in the day was this that you saw this OCCaUe
rence last fall? A In the tenth election district; it wnR i,: the
morning between 10 and 11 o'clock.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll: 
Q. What is your business? A. I am a trucman.a
Q. For whom? A. J. Lathan.
Q. What is his business? A. He has trucks.
Q. You are one of his drivers? A. Yes, sir.
Q How long have you beer with him?      A. About three
weeks or a little over.
Q. Prior to that time, what was your business? A. I am a
lousesmith.
Q. A housosmith? A. Yes, sir.          /
Q. What does that business consist of? A. Iron work in the
building, putting up the iron work in fireproof buildings.
Q. You work on iron buildings? A. Yes, sir; and bridge
buildings.
Q. How long have you been engaged in that business? A. For
about four years                '                  I
Q. Where? A. Around New York and out through the country in different States, putting up bridges. 
Q. What was your business prior to that? A. My business
prior to that was in Texas.
Q. What was it there? A. I was constable and deputy sheriff
in the State of Texas
Q. You were constable and deputy sheriff in the State of Texas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that your home? A. No, sir; New York is my home; I
was born in New York.
Q. How long were you a resident of the State of Texas? A. 1
was there about 15 years.
Q. In what part of Texas was you?    A. On the western
frontier, around Fort Clark and El Paso.
Q. What were you doing there? A. Different things; I went
there as a soldier when I was a boy.
Q. And you remained there? A. I remained there for 15 years;




190


I soldiered five years, and I thought I had ehough; and then I
went to work.
Q. Were you in the Union Army? A. I was.
Q. Did ybu serve until peace was declared? A. I did; there
was no war at the time, only Indian wars.
Q. You were not in the civil war, then? A. No; I was in the
regular army, the Fourth United States Cavalry.
Q. But you were not in the civil war?  A. No, sir; I don't
remember much about the civil war.
Q. After you had served in the army you remained a resident
of the State of Texas? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you went into politics there? A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. You were elected a deputy sheriff? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then were you not in politics? A. I never moved my hand
in politics in Texas.
Q. Did the office seek the man in that case? A. It did themr
Q. What were your politics then, Republican?  A. I hare
always been a Republican.
Q. How long did you remain deputy sheriff in Texas? A. I
guess I was deputy sheriff four or five years.
Q. What was the name of the place where you were deputy
sheriff? A. Fort Davis, Texas.
Q. What county is that in?  A. Jeff Davis county-it is
Republican, though.
Q. Republican county? A. Yes, sir.
4. You came to New York in what year? A. I don't remember.
Q. Can you recollect about what year? A. No, sir; I can not;
I think it was about five years ago, when I came back to New
York.
Q. Did you come straight from Texas? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have any trouble in Texas? A. In what way?
Q. With a man? A. Oh, yes; I have had a little trouble with
men.
Mr. Sutherland.-He has arrested men.
Q. Did you arrest men? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you ever arrested? A. No, sir.
Q. When you arrived in New York, what business did you go
into? A. I went right into the iron work with my brother-inlaw.
QO As soon as you got here? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And since you arrived here, have you been more or less
active in politics? A. Only in the last couple of years or a
tear and a halLf.




191
'. You were a watcher for some parfitular election dfatrc,
were you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And von had your certificate as a watcher for a certain
election district? A. Yes, sir; for the last fall election; for the
tetth election district
Q. You were a watcher there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Yol were not a watcher in the election district where the
deaf and dumb men attempted to vote, were you? A No, sir:
that was this last election; that was not last fall.
Q. Were you a watcher for the special election, too? A. I
was a watcher for the special election.
Q. For what district? A. For the eleventh district
Q. Was that the place where the deaf and dumb man was? AL
No; that was in the sixth, one block below.
Q. You had no right there, as a watcher, in the eleventh disrtict, had you? A. Yes, sir; I was a watcher in the eleventh
election district
Q. In what election district were you a watcher in the fall
election? A. That was in the tenth.
Q. You spoke of a number of things going on in the tenth
election district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there a Republican inspector there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was he? A. I think his name was Fountain.
Q. Was he not selected by your organization in that district?
2L That is a hard question to answer; there was a sort of a split
up there at that time.
Mr. Nicoll.-Well, I must not go into that; I will stop riglht
there on that, and take up something else.
Q. What was the name of the Tammany Hall inspector in that
district? A. I don't know his name.
Q. There were two Democratic inspectors, were there not? A.
I don't know; I believe there was.
Q. Were they both members of the same Democratic organimition or of some Democratic faction? A. No, I don't know.
Harry Ounningham, a witness called on behalf of the oomInittee, duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct-examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. No. 41 Spring street'
Q. Did you reside there last fall? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you vote? A. No. 44 Prince street
Q. What election district is that and what Assembly distriet?
I. The Third Assembly, the thirty-first election distt'ct.
Q. Did you have any official connectio with that election? A.
Yes, sir; was captain and watcher.      -    ' -;




192
Q. State what you saw in regard to the conduct of the police
on that day? A. On that day I had a man arrested for illegal
registry and attempting to vote, and Senator Sullivan came into
the polling place with several others and caught me by the collar
of the coat and pulled me outside of the guard-rail.
Q. Where was the policeman at that time? A. I suppose he
did not want to see it. 
Q. Where was he? A. I did not notice any policeman, but I
noticed there was a ward detective there, but he did not take any
part to protect me.
Q. Where was he? A. In the polling place.
Q. How far from you? A. About as far as I am from you.
Q. About 15 feet from you? A. About that.
Q. You say you did not see the policeman? A. No, sir.
Q. Did anything happen while the policeman was there that
you saw? A. When they got me outside the guard-rail they
pushed me out into the street, and Senator Sullivan said to
me, "If I wasn't running for Senator I would" do so and so.
Q. Who said that? A. Timothy D. Sullivan; that he would
do so and so, and so Flury Sullivan and several others got at
me and gave me a severe beating.
Q. Where was the policeman? A. I suppose one was inside.
Q. Did you see any policeman there? A. No, sir.
Q Did you make any outcry? A. I went t    headquarter
and they sent me to the police station, and they sent a policeman back with me; th6y took a bag of pasters that I had and
threw them in the gutter; and broke my hat, and Flury Sullivam
was going in and out all day, bringing men in and going in the
booth with thenm           ' 
Q. Did you remain in there the rest of the day? A. Yes, sir;
after the policeman brought me back.
Q. After the policeman brought you back; did he stay there
or did some other policeman stay there? A. He brought me
back and then he went back to the station-house, and the other
policeman was there.
Q. Was there another policeman there after you went back?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. More than one? A. Only about one.
Q. Did that one policeman stay there the rest of the day?
A. Until after the counting was over.
Q. Did he see these men crowding around there that you have
described; what was he doing; you say after you came backwhat was done then? A. I did not say anything then; after I
hail this man arrested Senator Sullivan and several others came
inside and pulled me outside of the guard-rail and shoved me




'193
Info the Otreef, and during all that time there was one of the ward
detectives present, but he did not offer me any protection.
Q. But you say when the policeman came back with you
from the station; what was done then? A. I went to the station
house to make a complaint, and they sent a policeman back to
the polling place, and he put me there.
Q. What happened after you got back? A. I don't know.
Q. Did you see men in there, electioneering after that? A.
I saw Flury Sullivan going in and out of the booth with the
men all the time.
Q. Was the policeman there at that time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he stop it in any way? A. No, sir.
Q. Was he where he could see it? A. Yes, sir; and one of
these polling clerks objected to this Flury Sullivan doing this
and he told him if he didn't shut up he would knock his head off.
Q. Who said that? A. Flury Sullivan.
Q. What did the policeman do or say? A. He did not say
noxthinr: T lsuppose he was in with the rest of them.
Mr. Nicoll.- I move to strike out the last remark of the
wiltess.
hairmain Lexow.-Yes, strike it out
Q. Was there anything else that you saw in regard to the
police? A. That is all.
Oross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q Do you know Flury Sullivan? A. I know him by sight,
but not to speak to him.
Q. Do you know any of the Sullivans? A. I know Timothy
D. Sulliva.n by sight; I don't know none of them personally.
Q. Timothy D. is the Tammany Hall leader in that districk,
is hie not? A. Yes, sir.
Q Who is the Republican leader? A. Mr. Murray. 
Q. The witness who has preceded you upon the stand this
morning? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you one of Mr. Murray's captains? A. I. am captain
of the district; at that time I was.
Q. At that time, were you one of the Republican captains in
the district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you lived in the district? A. About three
years in the election district.
Q. How long have you lived in the Assembly district? A.
Beven or eight years.
I Q. During that time have you frequently acted as an election
officer? A. I acted during the presidential election as United
States marshal.
'J L         25




194. In the presidential election of 1892? X. Yes, sir.
X. You were teur United States marshal? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Prior to that time had you ever been an election offioer?
A Yes, sir; I was a watcher before.
Q. Watcher for the Republican party in that district? A,
Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever held any office? A. No, sir.
Q. Ever been a candidate for office? A- No, sir.
Q. Ever a candidate for the police force? A. No, sir..
Q. What is your business? A. I am generally a peddler, but
I am not doing anything now.
Q. What is your business when you are doing something? A.
Peddling hardware.
Q. For what concern? A. For myself.
Q. You mean to say you buy and sell hardware? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why are you not doing anything now? A I have not got
no money.
Q Your capital is depleted? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where are you employed now? A. I am not employed
at all.
Q. Are you not in any occupation at all? A. No, sir; I am
living home'
Q. When were you last doing any business? A. About a
month or so ago.
Q. Have you no trade? A. No, sir.
Q. You were not brought up to a trade? A. No, sir; I was
learning a trade, but did not follow it up.
Q. What trade were you learning? A.. opper and tinsmith.
Q. When did you start out with that? A. Three or four years
ago.                                               4:
Q. You are not engaged in any trade now? A. No, sk.
Q. And the business of dealing in hardware is all you do? A
Peddling; buying job lots.
Q. You have not the means to conduct that now? A. Not -.t
present; no, sir. 
Q. Have you ever had any trouble with the police? A. No, sir.
Q. You had no trouble in your district with the police? A.
No, sir.
Q. None whatever? A No, sir.
Richard S. Harvey, called on behalf of the oommittee, was duly,
sworn, and testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:. Where do you reside? A. Nyack, Rockland county.




195
Q. Where did you reside last fall? A. Well, I have resided
there for three years past.
Q. You were in New York on election day? A. I was in New
York on election day at the Congressional election, about four
years ago.
Q. In what capacity did you act? W. I acted as watcher for
the Independent Democartic candidate, who was running against
Congressman Dunphy in hie district.
Q. In what election district? A. This was in Oak street; ner
Chatham square.
Q. You do not recollect the number? A. No, sir.
Q. What did you see in regard to the conduct of the police on
that occasion? A. I received my regular certificate as watcher,
and I arrived there about 7 in the morning.,, By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. When was this; what year; in 1886? A. 1888 or 1889.
Q. The Presidental election? A. The Congressional election,
the time that Congressman Dunphy ran; it must have been 1890:
I think It was the year before I left New York; which was, 1
think, in 1889 or 1890. 
Q. Very well, I will get that later; you can proceed? A I
arrived there about 7 o'clock and nothing unusual took place
until about 9 or 10 o'clock; I then saw a voter go into the booth
with a person to assist him to cast his ballot, and it occurred to
me that there was nothing the matter with the voter, and I made
a formal protest and objection to the officers and said that I
could not see any reason for sending anyone in with him to vote,
and they said that the man was blind; I then replied that the
man had come to the polling place without anyone to assist him
and it seemed to me the way the man made his way about. that
he could not be blind; they, however, overruled my objection and
allowed the man to vote with assistance.
Q. Did you make any challenge to the vote? A. I did at the
time, and it was entered on the books; I afterwards objected to
another occurrence of that kind, and I was forcibly ejected from
the polling place...- 
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. By whom were you ejected? X The friends of the regu
lar Democratic watcher there.
Q. Where was the policeman at that time? A. He was standIng on the sidewalk just outside of the polling place.
Q. Where he could see this occurrence? A. Yes, sir; I was.




i
1
i
f
r
i


196
thrown across Oal street three or four times, and had a lively
sense that I was about to be killed or sent to the hospital; as
a matter of fact, however, I was not much injured, but considerably shaken up at the end of this time; I was somewhat dazed
as well as shaken up; I landed after this operation in gymnastics
about two feet away from the policeman, and I appealed to him
and said that I was a regular watcher and had my credentials
in my pocket, which I offered to show him, and appealed to him
for protection, whereupon he turned and marched away.
Q. Was there anything else that occurred at that time? Al
I remained there unidl about 4 o'clock in the afternoon; I considered that as intimation enough to make no further outward
objections; I however made a list of 12 or 15 voters who seemed
to me illegal; in case that the election should be a close one, I
would report their names as persons illegally voting, whose vote
could be questioned; that opportunity, however, did not rise,
as the majority was overwhelming.
Q. After this assault upon you, you made no further protest?
[I No, sir; I did not feel inclined to do so.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. There was a large majority in the district? A: Yes, sir;
it was overwhelming.
Q. Was this experience the cause of your leaving New York?
rL. No; I had business; I saw a desirable opening as an attorney,
and I moved into the suburbs, where I had lived for 15 years
in the summer time.                             I
Q. Then you moved to Nyack? A. Yes, sir.       ' 
Q. Who is the Senator from that district? A. Senator Lexow.
Q. The chairman of this committee? A. He is.
Q. You and Senator Lexow sat up nights and told this story
to each other? A. No, sir; I was very much surprised to see a
subpoena; I did not know how Senator Lexow got word of this
fact; it was a greai surprise to me when I saw a subpoena; I
had no expectation whatever of being a witness in this matter,
Q. But you did tell, I suppose, the story to Mr. Lexow, as
one attorney to another before that? A. I regarded it as an
interesting incident.
Q. Yes; so it is; can you tell us about what year this happened? A. I think it was in 1890; I have been three years in
Bockland county; and I think it was the year before I left
the city.. I wish you would be as exact as you can about this; you




197


nust be able to tell us exactly what year it was with a moment's
reflection.
Mr. Sutherland. —He has told you the candidate for election.
A. I think the committee can take official cognizance of the
Congressional election.
Mr. Sutherland.- It could not have been in 1889; it must
have been in 1890.
Q. Was it before or after the passage of the McKinley bill?
A. I think it was the first year in which the blanket paster
ballot was used.
By Senator Saxton 
Q. Was it the first year in which the booths were used? A
Yes, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. That was the autumn of 1890? A. Yes, sir; I think it
was the fall election of 1890.
Mr. Sutherland.-Three years ago last falL
Q. Who was running for mayor at that time, can you recollect,
in that way? A. No.
Q. Who was running for district attorney in New York at
that time? A. I think you were.
Q. That is right
Mr. Sutherland.-Did he ever prosecute those people?
The Witness.-I never called it to his attention.  '
Q. You would have been vindicated long before this if you
had; who were the police commissioners in New York at that
time? A. I can not tell you; I am not acquainted with the
directory of the city of New York.
Q. I do not ask you to consult the directory of the city of
New York.
Chairman Lexow.-How is that material? He has fixed the
date by the fact that it was the first year of the Ballot Reform
Act.
Mr. Nicoll.-I wanted to know who were the police commissioners, to see. whether he made any complaint to them.
Chairman Lexow.-I think he says he did not; he made no
complaint.
Q. Can you tell us who the police commissioners were? A.
I can not.
Q. Did you make any complaint to the superintendent of the
police? A. I made no complaint whatever in the matter,
Q. To no official? A. No.
Q. To no police official or other official? A. No, sir.




198
Mr. Sutherland.-I object on the ground that the wItnes
has already answered twice clearly that he made no complaint
Q. Why did you carry the secret to Nyack with you and tell
it to no one except Senator Lexow?
Mr. Sutherland.-I object to that as being impertinent; the
witness has already stated that he told it various times.
Chairman Lexow.-The question is allowed.
Q. rhy did you not tell it to some of the authorities in
New York city; why did you take it to Nyack and tell it
only there to your Senator?  A. Well, I did not know the
proper routine to go through with in making a complaint;
and as the candidate whom I represented at that time was
so overwhelmingly defeated that I did not see any advantage
to him or advantage to me, to compensate for any such loss
of time; I never told Mr. Lexow of this instance so I do not
know why you should ask me about having told him.
Q. You never told it to him? A. No; probably he heard it
indirectly.
Mr. Sutherland.- Now have you found out why he carried
his secret to Nyack.
By Senator Bradley: 
Q. Do I understand you to say that you were thrown across
Oak street three or four times? A. I was.
Q. Thrown across? A. Yes, sir.
Q. By whom? A. By the —I would technically describe them
as the heelers which surrounded the polling place.
Q. The policemen did not touch you, did they? A. No; I
wished they had touched the others.
Q. The policeman did not interfere with you? A. No, sir.
Q. You say you were not bruised or cut? A. No; I was not
injured; I was more or less bruised and shaken up by the
operation.
By Senator Cantor.
Q. Who was the chairman of the independent organization?
A. He was the editor of the                Standard, the
paper that advocated Henry George's doctrines at that time,
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Do you say that the policeman was looking on, while you
were being thrown from one side of the street to the other?
A. Yes, sir; he stood right beside me as I was thrown.
Q. And when you finally appealed to him he turned away
and walked off? A. He did not even reply to me,




199
T olierf Corbeff, called as witness on behalf of the committee,
duly sworn, testified as followsl,
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Five hundred and twenty two
West Fifty-sixth street.
Q. Where did you vote last fall? A. In the second house from
Fifty-first street and Tenth avenue; I do not remember the
number; I got shaved in the barber shop there, but I do not
bother about the numbers.
Q. In what Assembly district is that? A. In the Eighteenth
Assembly district, and the twenty-fifth election d^strict.
Q. Tell what you saw in regard to the conduct of the
policemen at that election? A. I was captain of that district
for some years; one of the Democratic workers brought in a
man to vote  I called him a Tammany heeler; I don't know
whether it was right or not, and he says, "Go in and get your
ballot and vote;" he went in and the ballot clerk gave him his
ballots and he went into the booth next to the railing
and the policeman was standing to my left and this other
man was standing between us; when he came out, he did not
fold his ballots correct, I suppose, and this man who sent him
in, takes the ballots out of his hands and unfolds it and looks
at them and he says, "That is not the one to vote, go in end fold
th(mn right;" and when he got him in the booth, he got deliberate)y up on a chair and'took a ballot out of his pocket and threw
it ovcr the booth and said, "That is the one tc vote;" I put my
hand on the shoulder of the policeman and said, "Arrest that
man ULd I will make a charge against him," and he would not
do it; what more could I do; that was enough.;
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What was it you said about the lTammany heeler? A I
said he was a Tsammany worker.
Q. Who was? A. The man who brought him in; the man who
brought in this man to vote; I know him to be a Tammany heeler
or a Tammany worker; I can call them either one or the other,
a Tamanay heeler or a Tammany worker.
Q. Which do you call them? A. Either one or the other; I
do not oare which; many a time I have called them both, and
they called me worse many a time, too.
Q. Who was the man that the Democratic worker brought n
to vote? A. I don't know who the man was; I did not know the
pman he brought in to vote, but I know the man who brought iA
the man.
Q. You know the man who brought in the man to vote? AL
iYes2 sir.




'200


Q. Who was he? A. He is the man who lives in Fifty-firs
street; I do not care toQ. You do not care to mention his name? A. No, sir.
Q. The man he brought in to vote, you do not know at all? A,
No, sir.
Q. He was a stranger to you? A. Yes, sir; I did not know him.
Q. Do you know anything about his condition physically? Ak
He seemed to be the same as you or me.
Q. That is, in pretty good physical condition? A. Yes, sir; he
seemed to have his rational everywhere that a man should want.
Q. He seemed to have his rational everywhere a man should
want? A. Yes, sir; he seemed to be all right.
Q. You mean to say, that he seemed to be in possession of hs8
usual faculties and health? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he ask for any assistance, as a disabled voter? A
No, sir.
Q. Where were you standing? A. I was standing outside the
ail alongside of this man who brought him in and the policeman
and three of us.
Q. Were you a watcher? A. No, sir; I was a captain.
Q. You had no official connection with the election? A. I had
no right to go in, but when the other party went in I said 1 would
go in as well as they.
Q. Did you go inside of the guard-rail? A. No, sir.
Q. Where did you go? A. I went into the door; the guardrail was a little ways from the door; it was opposite the guardrail.
Q. You mean you went into the polling place? A. I went in
the polling place. 
Q. In the room? A. Yes, sir; but the guard-rail was inside
and the policeman stood there keeping order.
Q. He stood by the guard-rail? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go inside of the guard-rail? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you go up to the guard-rail? A. Yes, sir.
Q You mean you were standing up against it? A. Yes, sir;
and this other man and the policeman and myself were there.
Q. Who went inside the guard-rail? A. The man he brought
in to vote.
Q. Did the Tammany heeler go in, too? A. No% sir; but he
did afterwards.
Q. He stood outside with you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Both of you stood out beyond the guard-rail? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The man who went in to vote went to the ballot clerk?
A. The man got his ballots from the ballot clerk and went into
the booth, and when h( came out he did not know how to fold




201
them, and this man put out his hand and took them out of his
hand that he was going to vote and unfolded them before me
and said, "That is not the one to vote, go in and fold them
ballots right;" and when he was in, he got on a chair deliberately and took the tickets out of his pocket and threw it into
him and, "That is the one to vote," and I put my hand on the
policeman's shoulder and said, "Arrest that man:Lnd I will
make a charge against him." 
Q. What charge? A. That the law was violated.
Q. Do you know whether or not the man demanded assistance? A. The man demanded no assistance.
Q. How do.you know that? A. Wasn't I there- and didn't
I hear.
Q. When he applied to the election officers could you tell
whether he asked for assistance? A. He applied to no one; he
got his ballots that is all.
Q. Isn't it not a fact that this man went up to the election
officers when you stood back with the Tammany worker by
the guard-rail? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what occurred up there, as to whether he demanded
assistance or not, you do not know, do you? A. Wasn't I
standing alonside of him not three feet away from him.
Q. Was the ballot clerk near to the guard-rail? A. The man
who got them was inside of the guard-rail, and I was outside,
and I could hear what was said.
Q. Are you an office holder? A. I am not; I am a business
man. 
Q. Have you ever been an office holder? A. Never.
Q. Are you in politics? A. Nothing(; only just for the good
of the party; I am always a Republican, and always will be;
see; I don't deny my politics; I make nothing by politics, not
a cent, only what I am out; and I don't sit here to tell a story;
I am just telling you the straight up and down truth.
By Senator Saxton:
Q. Were you there when the voter came into the polling place?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You saw him when he came in? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You saw him go to the election officers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he received his ballots? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How far were you from him aiS frcm the election officers
at that time? A. Not three feet.
Q. And you did not hear him ask for-any assistance? A.
No, sir; he asked for no assistance; I am on my oath here.
L        26




202
Q. And you did tnit hear the election officer tell anybody to
help him fold his ballots? A. No, sir.
Q. He went to the booth which was next to the guard-rail?
A. Yes
Q. And this healer or worker, as you call him, stood right
there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He went in his booth and came out again with a ticket
folded? A. Yes, sir; but not right.
Q. He had a ticket folded? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did this man reach over the guard-rail and take that
ticket from him? A. Yes, sir; and he unfolded it before me
and told him, "That is not the one to vote," and he went back
in the booth and he got up on a chair deliberately and took a
ballot out of his pocket and said, "This is the one to vote."
Q. Did he give it to him before he went into the boolh? A.
No; he threw it into the booth.
Q. He threw it over the top of the booth? A. Yes, sir; he
got up on a chair deliberately and threw it over; whether it
was a paster ballot or one of the others, I don't know.
Q. Was the policeman there? A. He was at my left hand,
not two feet from me.
Q. Was he looking at this transaction? A. If he was not
blind; there was none but the three of us.
Q. He stood there facing these parties? A. He stood there
just the same as I did, and when I put my hand on his shoulder
and said, "Officer arrest that man and I will make a charge
against him," he did not do anything.
Q. Who was the officer? A. I don't know; I was too much.
excited to tell,' but I can easily find out.
Q. Was he the officer who was detailed there? A. Yes, sir;
on the twenty-fifth election district; I was so angry and he
hung his head and he said, "I have no man to leave in my
place," and I said, "That is pretty good."
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. His only reply was that he had no man to leave In his
place? A. Yes, sir; that is the way the voters are going to
be handled, and if that is so, it is time to give up the ship.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What was that remark of yours? A. Tf we are to be
handled that way; we have no protection in New York. city.
Chairman LeZxow.- That is all; any further questions


Louia Meyer, called on behalf of the committee.




By Mr. Sutherland:.
Q. Where do you reside? A; Forty-one Rlivlngston street
Q. How long have you lived there? A. About two and A
half yearn.
Q. What Assembly district is that? A. The Third Assembly.
Q. That is the Assembly district in which Mr. Murray represented the Republlican party last fall, is it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that the district in which watchers were sent from the
Replulllican C:lb up town? A. That is the distr:ct that watchers
from the City Club and Union League, were sent all over the
Third Assembly district
Q. And that was a matter that was generally understood before' election day, was it not? A. Yes, sir; it was advertised. in
the papers, and Mr. Murray gave personal notice that they were
coming.
Q. Were you present when the police force went out that
morning? A. I was at the station-house at the time; yes, sir.
Q. Did you hear the instructions given to the police force by
Captain Devery? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say.to them in regard to the watchers that
were coming down from the Republican clubs? A. I went in
there to challenge a voter, and the officer in charge of that
polling place would not arrest that voter, unless I went to the
station-house and made a charge personally; I went down there,
and while I was in there; there was a platoon of men; I suppose they were from different precincts, and the captain says
to those man, "I don't want no charge brought against you
people, and it makes no difference what your politics are, do
just as your brother officer tells you; there is a lot of silk stocking people coming down from up town to bulldoze you people,
and if they open their mouths stand them on their heads."
Q. What station-house was that? A. The eleventh precinct
on' Eldridge street.
Q. What time of the day was this? A. Between S and 9 in
the morning.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What is your business? A. Photographer.
Q. By yourself or with someone else? A. With someone ele.
Q. With whom? A. B. Block, 543 Fulton street, Brooklyn.
Q. How long have you been with him? A. Nine years, off
and on.
Q. How much of the nine years have you been on and how
much off? A. About eight of the nine.
Q. Been eight years off? A. No; eight years mo




Q. Are you now on or off? A. On now.
Q. When were you last off? A. Last week.
Q. Were you off one week and on another? A'. He did not
have any work for me to do that week and so I went off.
Q. You were on or off, according to the work that Mr. Block
las? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you known Charles H. Murray, the gentleMnan who sits there? A. Since Mr. Murray has been leader of
the district.
Q. How long is that? A. I suppose three years; I am positive
iho.v long he has een the leader.
Q. When did you first meet him? A. Up to the club-rooms
at Grand and Fomsyth streets.
Q. Of the Repulican organization in the Third Asembly distriot? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you been an active worker in the organization of
that district? A. Yes, six
Q. For how many years? A. So long as I have presented my
first vote.
Q. Ever since you first voted? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was seven or eight years ago, I suppose? A. About
seven years.
Q. I understood you to say that you were a watcher? A.
No, sir; I was an inspector of election.
Q. Appointed by your organizatio  n n that distret? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Who were your co-inspectors; who were the other two
Democratic inspectors? A. The Democratic inspectors; I don't
know their names; they did not belong to my organization, so
I don't know who they were; they lived in the district, but I
don't know who they were.
Q. Do you mean to say that you do not know the names of
the two election inspectors who worked with you on election
day? A. I know their names, but I do not know who they are.
Q. What are their names? A. Frederick Duser and Berman;
I don't know his first name.
Q. I understood you to say that you were present at the police
sttiion-house? A. Yes, sir.
Q. On the morning of election day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At what time? A. Between 8 and 9 o'clock.
Q. Was anybody with you? A. There was an officer there
and the party that I challenged.
Q. Who was that? A. A party by the name of Frederick
Smith.
Q. You had challenged him for attempting to vote illegally?
'A Yes, sir.                  " '. - 




2f 
205


Q. Had the officer ejected him? A. He would not take him
unless I went to the station-house to press the charge.
Q. And so you went to the station-house to press the charge?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. With the officer and the prisoner? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you all came before the captain? A. We had to wait
until he got through with this platoon of men.
Q. Then you came before the captain'i desk? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the officer and the prisoner and yourself were there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who else was present at that time? A. I think there was
the sergeant at the desk.
Q. Who was he? A. I don't know the sergeant; I am not
acquainted with the police.
Q. There was a sergeant at the desk? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who else was present at the desk? A. Nobody else, except
Captain D)every and the sergeant
Q. Who was present in the room? A. Myself and the officer
and the one I challenged.
Q. Were not there police officers, some of this platoon?  A.
We had to wait until they got through, and then the captain
spoke to us
Q. Were they not there? A. Yes, sir; but we did not pass
any remarks when they were there.
Q. They were there at the time of the discussion between you
and the captain? A. No, sir; they were not there; they were
gone then
Q. Then the only persons present were the captain and the
sergeant, the officer, the prisoner and yourself? A. Yes, sir.
Q. No one else? A. No, sir; not that I know of.
Q. Do you swear to that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who opened the conversation? A. The captain asked me
who I was; I told him I was a Republican inspector and he looked
at me and he kind cf slurred at me.
Q. You told him you were a Republican inspector? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then he looked at you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he say anything to you? A. No, he did not say anything to me, but he kind of slurred at me; kind of made a face
at me; what I mean is, he had a sour look toward me: when I
told him I was a Republican inspector he had a sour look at me.
Q. He took a sour look at you when you told him you were a
Republican inspector? A. I did not say that exactly.
Q. What do you mean; do you mean to say that he looked
cross or annoyed? A. No; he did not look cross or annoyed at
me, but he looked kind of sour at me.




~i
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r
1
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i
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206


Q. He did not look cross?
Mr. Sutherland.- He has said no twice.
Chairman Lexow.-I think we understand what the witness
means to say.
Q. What else was said by the captain? A. He told the officer
to take me to court with the prisoner.
Q. Did he say anything to you personally —the captain? A.
No, sir. 
Q. He said not one word to you? A. He said, " Who are you? "
Q. And you said that you were the Republican inspector? A~
Yes, sir.
Q. Then what did he say? A. He said to take him down to
court.
Q. To whom did he address that remark? A. He said that
to the officer
Q. Who did he refer to, the prisoner? A. To the two of us,
the prisoner and myself.
Q. Is that all he said to you? A. That is all; he was speaking to the officer.
Q Did the officer go out with you? A. Yes, sir; the three
of us went out together.
Q. Did he go out right away? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I understood you to say that he said something else? A,
No, sir; he did not say anything else.
Q. Who said something else to the officer? A. No one said
anything.
Senator Saxton.-I think what he said occurred before this
took place between the captain and the witness; the platoon of
policemen had gone out.
Q. Who said anything about standing the gentlemen of the
Union League Club on their heads?
Senator Saxton. —That was before this took place between
the captain and the witness.
Q. This remark of Captain Devery about standing the members of the Union League Club on their heads, was before the
prisoner was arraigned at the captain's desk, is that it? A.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Sutherland.-Before the platoon went out?
Mr.'Nicoll.-I was writing a telephone message to ny oflice
stating that the committee intended to go on until 2 o'clock and
I did not catch that part of what the witness said.
Q. I understood you to say that the captain - repeat that what
the captain said? A. The captain said to the officerQ. Captain Devery said to the officer and the prisoner? A.
Yes, sir; "There is a lot of silk-stocking people coming down




207


from up town to bulldoze you people, and if they open their
mouths stand them on their heads."
Q. "Open their mouths, stand them on their heads!"
Mr. Sutherland.- No wonder you are astonished.
Q. Was there anything else said before the observation of
the captain or did he make that remark without anything being
said? A. He said to the platoon: "I don't want no charge
b ought to me against you people; it makes no difference what
your politics are, do as your brother officer tells you."
Q. The captain said to his men, "I don't want any charge
brought against you to me?" A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he not call their attention to some of the rules and
regulations of the department relating to elections? A. No, sir.
Q. Did he not tell them that politics was a matter of no oonsequence in the election, so far as they were concerned? A.
He said, " It don't make any difference what your politics are.'
Q. "I want no charge preferred against you by any citizen? 
A By no one.
Q. And you say that after saying that, he said that if any
iilk-stooking members of the Union League Club came down
there and opened their mouths to stand them on their heads?
A. No; he didn't say that; he said, if any silk-stocking men came
down and tried to bulldoze you people, 'stand them on their
head.
Q. Didn't he say something about a club?
Mr. Sutherland.-No; he did not say anything about the
Union League Club or any club, you have got that in your
head, the witness has not said so.
Q. Was that all his remarks to his men that morning? A.
That is all while I was present.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Was he talking to those men when you went in? A. They
had just marched to the desk.
Q. They were standing in line before the desk? A. Yes, srir
a platoon of men.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Was that before the police captain knew that you were a
Relublican inspector that he made those remarks? A. He did
not know who I was at that time.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. Were you standing there at the rail when Captain Deverty




208


made this statement? A. I could not stand by the rail; I was
standing off at the side.
Q. Were you in view of the sergeant's desk? A. Yes, sir;
about seven feet from it
Q. Could the sergeant see you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And could the captain see you? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. I understand you to say that you were an inspector; it
was your duty as inspector of election to stay at the voting
place, was it not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you say that the policeman declined to arrest this man
unless you went with him and preferred charges? A. Yes, sir;
and he kept me at the courthouse for three hours away from
the polls.
By Senator Saxton:
Q Then you went down to the court before the judge? AL
Yes, sir.
Q. And the policeman with you, 'and the man against whom
yon mnade the charge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you attempt to make a charge there before the court?
I. I attempted to make a charge, but the officer was not there;
he went away and then he came in and then he went out again;
and they were fooling around there for three hours before they
heard me.
Q. So they kept you there three hours before you got back?
A. Yes, sir; when I got back it was 11 o'clock.
By Chairman. Lexow:
Q. The officer went away, and they kept you until he came
hack? A. Yes, sir.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did you ever make any charge against the caiaptain for
the captain to issue to his men? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go to the police commissioners or the superintendent of the police and state this to them? A. Not yet.
Q. Did you ever make any charge against the captain for
using such language before his men? A. No, sir.
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. It is not an unusual thing to have unusual things happte




209


in New York, is it? A. No, sir; not in the Third Assembly
district; some very funny things occur there.
Otto A. Rosalsky, called on behalf of the committee, being
duly, sworn, testified as follows:
By Mr.Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Twenty-nine Alien street, New
York city.
Q. You have resided there how long? A. Twenty years.
Q. What is your business? A. I am A law student at the
University of the City of New York.
Q. You have been a law student how long? A. Since October,
1892, at the university.
Q. Where did you vote at the last fall election? A. I did
not vote last fall, because my age has not yet matured.
Q. Did you hold a commission as a watcher last fall? A. I did.
Q. Where did you serve? A. In the third election district of
the Third Assembly district, 130 Canal street.
Q. What did you observe in reference to the conduct of the
police on that day? A. On that day, when I appeared, I saw two
policemen by the name of Fitzpatrick and O'Brien; while standing outside of the booth, I noticed several voters enter the booth
with two other attendants there who claimed to be watchers; I
approached one of the policemen and demanded of him to put
those individuals outside of the railing as they had no right to
be there; at first one of the policemen did not do anything, but
I again intervened and told the'policemen that those individuals
had no right in there - in the booth wfth those men - and they
responded, " Mind your own business; we have got the say here
and not you;" I then toldhhim I did not think it was right, that
you are not obeying the instructions given to you and you are
aware of that fact, that no one has a right to enter the booth
and I demanded that they should be put out, and they refused,
and these certain individuals went into the booth with the major
part of the voters who voted that day; at about 3 o'clock, or
between 2 and 3 p. m., one the henchmen there in attendance,
by name Murphy, I told him, "It is about time you stopped
this; Inspector Williams; when he comes here I will report this
fact to him;" he used a viJe epithet and struck me in the face.
Q. Where was the policeman just then? A. Inside the rail.
Q. How far away from you? A. About six feet from me.
Q. Was he where he could see this? A. Most certainly; he
saw it and I shouted for the policeman and he came over and
L.     ~ 27




210


he says, "Here, you don't want to be doing this; it is enough
that you do other things, but don't you strike;" so he ordered
this man out of the polling place, but he did not stay, he
returned in about five minutes
Q. Who returned? A. This same man Murphy, and during
the entire day that was done.
Q. Where was the policeman when Murphy returned again?
A. Inside of the rail.
Q. Did he see him return? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he make any protest against his coming back? A.
No, sir; he did not
Q. Did he eject him? A. He did not
By Senator Saxton:
Q. Did he come back and go inside of the guard-rail? A.
He did; he then came back again and over and over again he.
-cutered with everyone into the booth, although these individuals
were not physically disabled; they were able-bodied men and
the major part of those who did go in were unable to give their
names and they had their names on a` paper and I protested
against them, but they would not make any arrests; this mau
Murphy - ent into the polling place and I called the policeman's
-attention to it, but he did not respond; about 3 o'clock Inspector
'Williams came down there, and I related these facts to him, and
he called both of the policemen to him- no; one of them; the
-other was at lunch, I think, and he gave him special instructions
not to permit anyone to enter the booth followed by another
-individual, and if so that I should report and he gave these
instructions to the chairman of the board also at the same time,
and I called the attention of the inspector to the fact that sev~eral individuals voted on the same name where another person
had already voted, and I demanded that those ballots should be
cast away when the vote was counted in the evening; and he
gave those instructions to the chairman of the board and they
were violated, and the policemen, both of them, were there the
whole time during the entire time allotted for balloting, and I.saw the same individuals go into the booth, andlT sa', the men
onome up with pieces of paper in their hands, and give their
names from the paper; there was one fellow there in appearance was not a Hebrew; he did not appear as a Hebrew, and
they asked him his name, and he said it was. Isaac.' Cohen, and
it was easy to see it was not his name and I protested, but he
was permitted to vote.
Q. In all these oases where some one went into the booth




211


with them, Murphy qr others, was there an oath taken before
the inspector of physical disability? A. No, sir; no oath taken.
Q. Then without any oath being taken, did the inspectors
assign anybody, this man Murphy or anyone, to go into the
booth with the voter? A. Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. And you say that the policemen saw that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you called their attention to the occurrence? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. How many times did you call their attention to that faot?
A. A dozen times; it is useless in that district to call their attention to it
Q. Do you say that voters would come there with their names
on a paper? A. Yes, sir; and I have a memorandum home, I
think, to that effect, and in the letter that I wrote to Mr. Murray
I mentioned those individuals named.
Q. They referred to a paper in giving their names? A. Yes
sir; they read their names from a slip of paper.
Q. In the.presence of the policemen? A. Yes, sir.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. I understood you to say that there was no oath of physical
disability taken at all that day? A. That i- my answer-I will
qualify that-yes; as to physical disability, there was no oath
taken.
Q. You know when an oath is taken there must be a minute
made of it somewhere? A. Most certainly.
Q. If you should discover that the election records of that
precinct recorded the fact that numerous oaths of physical disability were taken, would you not correct your statement or
recollection on that subject? A. No, sir, I would not; it would
astound me if such memoranda were made; I was present
when the ballot was counted in the evening, and no such
memoranda were made; it wauld really astound me of they would
present such a record.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You mean if they presented such a record it would be
false? A. Yes, sir.;
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Who was the Republican inspectors? A. Mr. Gargingle,
and the other gentleman's name I don't know.




Q. Did you have two Republican inspectors? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And one Democratic inspector? A. Oh, no; I think there
was only one Republican inspector, Mr. Gargingle, and the
other might be a poll clerk; they had only one inspector.
Q. Do you know the difference between an inspector and a
poll clerk? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many poll clerks were there? A. I do not remember
how many.
Q. Do you not know how many poll clerks there were? A. I
did not count how many.
Q. Were there more than six? A. I don't think there were
more than six, I think less.
Q. How many inspectors were there there? A. Two Democratic and one Republican.
Q. Who was the Republican inspector? A. Mr. Gargingle.
Q. Was he appointed by the regular Republican organization in that district? A. I do not know as to that, but I think
he was.
Q. Who appointed you? A. Mr. Murray gave me a watcher's
certificate, and being a member of the organization I voluntarily rendered my services for that day.
Q. Without compensation? A. Most certainly.
Q. Were you there all day? A. I was.
Q. Why was it when Isaac Cohen's name was called out that
you think that the gentleman who voted on Isaac Cohen's name
should not have been Isaac Cohen? A. From his appearance it
could not have been so.
Q. Did you know Isaac Cohen? A. I don't know him — bht t
know -I could easily draw the distinction between Isaac Cohln
and the person who voted on his name.
Q. How could you draw that distinction, if you did not know
Isaac Oohen? A. There is a presumption —
Q. That is the only specific charge that you have mentioned -
the only name that you have given? A. There is a presumption
that a person who travels under the name of Isaac Cohen is a
Hebrew and not a Gentile. and his appeanance denoted that he
was not a Hebrew.
Q. Do you mean to say that there is such a marked distinction
that you could tell?
Mr. Sutherland.- He can tell the difference between an Irishman and a Hebrew.
A. I think that by the features of this individual's face that
I could make the distinction.
0. Ts there anvthing peculiar about the physiognomy of the
family of Cohen that you could tell him? A. I did not make any




213


personel inspection; life is too short, of the whole family of
Cohens in the United State&
Q. The family of Cohen is a large and influential family? A.
I think it is.
Mr. Sutherland. ---I object; I think this has gone far enough.
Q. What sort of a looking gentleman was the man who presented himself and called himself Isaac Cohen? A. A big, burly
ruffian.
W(. What color of hair had this big, burly ruffian? A. Ido
not remember what color it was.
Q. Wh!at colon' of eyes had he? A. I did not examine his eyes.
Q. What mustache or hair did he wear on his face? A. A
I lack mustache, and a red face.
Q. A red face and a black mustache? A. Yes; and he must
have had black hair.
Q. And he was big and burly? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you not seen any gentleman by the name of Cohen
who had black hair, black mustache, a red face and was big and
burly? A. No, sir.
Q. What other circumstance was there that persuaded yon
that he was not a Cohen? A. I have stated that, and I think
it is simply sufficient-from his appearance and his features.
Q. Had he any of the Hebrera type of countenance? A. No,
sir; he did not have.
Q. Not at all? A. No, sir.
Q. How was his nose, was it in a Hebrew cast of countenance,
so far as his nose was concerned? A. No, sir.
Q. You do not undertake to swear that man was guilty of
forain a vote simply because he gave his name as Isaac Cohen,
and you did not recognize him as the type of countenance of
Isaac Cohen? A. Yes, sir; I mean to swear to that.
Q. Seriously? A. Seriously, earnestly and solemnly,
Q. Did you ever tell this Isaac Cohen story to Mr. Sutherland?
A. No, sir; this is the first time that I have come in contact with.his gentlemnan, this morning.
Q. Come in contact with what gentleman? A. Mr. Sutherland.
Q. When did you tell the Isaac Cohen story to Mr. Murray?
A. I never related it personally, but by letter.
Mr. Sutherland. —He made.his report to Mr. Murray; every
watcher was directed to submit a report.
The Witness.- I was told to send in a report and I did so.
Q. When did you send in a report? A. About a week after
election; about the 14th or 15th of November; about that time.
Q. And you had not repeated the story since to any one, for




214


the purpose of appearing as a witness? A. No; to no one, with
the exception of once when I was subpoenaed before the grand
jury..
Q. You were before the grand jury? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were not these men indicted? A. I don't know whether
they were or not.
Q. You do not know whether the inspectors of election were
indicted? A. I do not know whether they were indicted.
Q. Were you ever called on the trial? A. No, sir; they might
have had too much of a pull.
Q. Were you ever subpoenaed before the petit jury afterward? A. No, sir.
Q. But you were examined before the grand jury? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you tell them this story? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You told the Isaac Cohen story?   A. Yes, sir; and
with more vehemence.
Q. You told it with more vehemence? A. No; I told the
facts.
Daniel F. Ring, called on behalf of the committee, being duly
sworn, testified as follows:
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Twenty-four Cherry street
Q. You have lived there how long? A. Nine years
Q. Where did you vote in the election in 1893? A. Three
hundred and sixty-two Pearl street.
Q. What election district is that? A. The nineteenth election
district, Second Assembly district.
Q. Were you a watcher at that election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. On behalf of the Republican party? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you give attention to the canvassing of the vote after
the polls were closed? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where were the policemen when the votes were being canvassed? A. Inside of the rail.
Q. How near to the canvassers? A. Say three feet
Q. Where were you? A. I was outside of the rail.
Q. How far were you required to stand from the canvassers?'
A. I stood there at my own option.
Q. How far away was it? A. About eight feet.
Q..How many votes were declared to be east? A. Two hundred and seventy-one.
Q. How many of those were declared to be for Mr. Bartlett?.
A. None.
Q. What did you say, if anything, in regard to that? A. They




215


commenced to count the vote, and they said Secretary of RSate
John Palmer so many, and they came down to Bartlett's vote,
Judge of the Common Pleas, and they said none of Bartlett; 271
for Maynard; and I made a protest; I said my vote was there.
Q. What did you say about your vote? A. I said my vote
must be there and they said they could not find it.
Q. Did you tell them that you had voted for Mr. Bartlett?
A Yes, sir.
Q. Then you said that your vote was there? A. Yes, sir;
and one of the inspectors, Dooley, said, "I can't find it;" I
said, "Fay, you are with me, and you are to find that vote;"
he said, "I can't find it there;" there was a stack of ballots
about that high (illustrating), and they said to the police officer
to find it, and he said, "I have no right to handle those ballots,"
and I said, "You have no right to disfranchise me," and the
policeman said, " Shut up your mouth; you have got too damned
much to say."
Q. You had served there all day as a Republican watcher?
A. No; I was away for my dinner.
Q. Yes; but you had been there more or less all day? A.
Yes; on and off all day.
Q. And they knew the fact that you were a regular Repub*   lican watcher? A. Yes.
Q. You say that this was Dooley and Fay? A. Yes, sir.
Q. These two inspectors have both since been convicted of
making a fraudulent canvass, have they not? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. They have both been sent to prison for a term of years?
A. Yes, sir.
Chairman Lexow.-Was anything done to the policeman?
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Are the policemen still on the force? A. Yes, sir; I suppose so.
Q. Did you ever hear of anything being done to them? A.
No, sir; that is all he said to me, "Shut up, you have too
damned much to say."                 -
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did you make a complaint to anyone about the conduct
of the policemen? A. No, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Did you shut up? A. Yes, sir.




216


Israel Ellis, called on behalf of the committeet being dalX
sworn, testified as follows;
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. 'Where do you reside? AL Nine Orchard street
Q. In what election district is that? A. In the fifth election
of the Third Assembly.
Q. Did you vote there last fall? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have any official connection with the election?
A. Yes, sir; but not in my election district; I was in the seventh election district of the same Assembly.
Q. You were a Republican watcher there? A. No; I was a
Republican poll clerk.
Q. Tell us what took place at that election, where you served
as poll clerk, so far as the police were concerned.* A. Before
proceeding, I called the attention of the board to the clause in
the election manual, which was supplied to every election officer
by the police department, and this is the clause, section 68,
which says that the duty of a poll clerk is to enter each voters
name when he appears in the polling booth to get a set of
ballots, it is a ballot clerk's duty to call his name and his residence out, and I must enter his name on the poll-list, and then
when such voter casts his ballot and vote and the chairman
accepts his vote, then it is my duty to check such voter's name
as have voted; I wanted to do my duty, but I was prevented
from doing so by the chairman of the inspectors, aln by the
other inspectors and by one of the officers on duty there.
Q. Tell us what you said, and what they said about it; what
was the first thing that was said? A. When several voters came
in and they were handed sets of ballots, I wanted to get their
names down, but the chairman and the officer told me that it
was not necessary.
Q. Who was the chairman? A. A gentleman by the name of
McGrath;
Q. Whal was the name of the officer? A. Frank Hahn.
Q. He told you that it was not necessary?.. Yes, sir; they
told me that it would be sufficient for me to take down the
name and the vote, and I told them it was not sufficient, 4ec;use if I did not do this, there would be a great deal of repeating done; and they said, never mind, it is none of your business;
you do as we tell you; it has been carried on for a great length
of time', and I still kept on protesting, and once the chainnan
of the inspectors and another inspector said if I didn't shut up
they would remove me from the board, and then the officer said
if I would not stop he would take a hand in. that too,




217


Q. The policeman said that to you? A. Yes, sir; and then
several times the repeaters came in openly, without any fear
whatever, and they tried to vote, and each time I protested and
challenged their votes; and one time a repeater came in and
he passed the ballot clerk, he passed the chairman, but I recognized him as a repeater, and I challenged the man, and I said,
4'What is your name?" but the man had forgotten his name,
because he was voting for the second-third time-and so I
caught hold of that man by the collar and ejected him.outside,
and the officer did not say one word; a second time a man came
in to vote which I myself recognized as voting the second time
in that election district; and another witness told me, whose
name I do not know, that he was voting for the third time, and
I waited until the man had voted, and I challenged his vote,
and the man xoted, and after he voted I ca!giht hold of that
man, and I said, "Officer, I want you to arrest that man;" and
the officer looked at the ceiling, not at me; he did not say a
thing and he did not arrest the man.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. And he went away? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you tell the officer what you wanted him to a.rrst
him for? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say about that? A. I told him, the officer
that he voted for the second time to my own knowledge and the
third time to the knowledge of a witness, and wanted him to
arrest him
Q. And he looked at the ceiling? A. He looked at the ceiling,
Q. When he forgot his name, did he refresh his memory by
looking at a paper in his hand? A. No; lie had no piece of paper
whatever; I asked his name, and he got stuck
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Did he give any answer? A. No; he only said the first
name, he said, "John," and the second name he did not know.
Q. He did not know the second name? A. No.
Q. Who took down the name when he voted? A. He was
passed by the poll clerk.
Q. Nobody took down his name? A. I suppose not; they did
not care; they repeated openly, and at the time the repeating
was done to such an extent that there was 508 registered, and
out of these 495 voted, according to their own books, and when
the votes were counted 567 votes were found in the ballot box.
Q. Seventy-two more votes- A. Seventy-two in excess of
necessary.
L2       28




218


Q. Than their own books showed? A. Yes, sir.
By the Chairman:
Q. And was the policeman sitting by and seeing these oceur,
rences without saying or doing a thing? A. They were standing
by, and not only did not say anything, but encouraged them.
By Mr. Saxton:
Q. You mean there was an excess of votes in the ballot box
over the poll-list? A. Yes, sir; they were taken out.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Who drew them out? A. The chairman of the board of
nspectors.
By Senator jexow:
Q. Was this the character of work he did all day, from
morning till night? A. All the day until the close of the polls
Q. Was the same policeman there all the time? A. Yes; there
were two officers.
Q. And you could see they were noticing these occurrences?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And helping and assisting them along? A. Especially one;
there was one officer especially, of the name of Mr. McM1anor,
who was not so offensive; but the other did.
Q. And interfered in the way of permitting this kind of
business instead of stopping it? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Suppose you tell us what the officer did so we may know
exactly what to charge him with; what did he do? A. Well,
the first thing the officer did was that he called my attention
to the fact that it is not my duty to take down each voter's
name; he says simply take down the names when the votes
are handed in to the foreman of the inspectors, but I kept on
protesting, and he said, "If you wont shut up," he said, "I will
take a hand in that;" those are his exact words; and then, when
a repeater came in and I asked his name, I put him out of the
polling booth, and the officer did not make any attempt whatever to arrest the man.
Q. Is that all? A. And then again, when another repeater
came in and he voted the second time, of my own knowledge,
and I called especially on the officer to have him arrested, he
refused; he did not move; he did not stop; and another thing,
if you are anxious to know what the officer did more, I will




219
accommodate you; he went inside the polling place, and looked
inside the booths, and prepared a set of ballots for some of the
voters.
Q. Now, have you told all now? A. Yes, nearly all; I think it
is al. -OM|,..! |^  j
Q. What time of the day was it that the first repeater you
speak of came in? A. I think that was about 11 o'clock.
Q I mean the first man of these two instances you refer to?
A. About 11 o'clock.
Q. About 11 o'clock? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was present at that time besides yourself? A. Well,
there were the officers
Q. That is, the officers of election? A. I mean the officers of
election, and the officers of the police, and there was a gentleman,
Mr. Moses —he was a watcher for the Republican club.
Q. What was his name? A. Moses; I don't know his first name.
Q. Who else was there? A. Well, there were a great many
people inside; the laws had been entirely violated in regard to
certain distances in which the poll workers should be inside,
because all the Tammany Hall workers were inside the polling
place, and when I called upon the officer to arrest the second
repeater, one of the Tammany Hall captains got hold of that man
and put him outside.
Q. What is your business? A. I am a law student.
Q. Where did you study law? A. I studied a year in Column
bia College, and last year in the New York school.
Q. What are you studying now? A. I am through with the
law school, and I am not studying in any college at present
Q. Are you instructing in law? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Teaching?  A. Well, I am teaching and give lessons on
some subjects to sime people.
Q. Do you mean to say you are teaching young men, instruct.
Ing them in law? A. No; not in the law.
Q. In other subjects? A. In other subjects.
Q. That is your occupation, is it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you lived in this country? A. I am seveq
years; it will be eight years this next August.
Q. You came from where? A. I came from Russia,
Q. You are a Russian? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When were you naturalized? A. I was naturalized on
September 4, 1891.
Q. Have you always been a member of the Republican organiration? A. Not always; I became a member of the organization
last year.
Q. And of what organization were you a member before thatt




220
IL Before that I belonged to the. Independent Republicaa
organization,
Q. What is that? A. An Independent association; it was a
Republican organization, but it was not a regular organization.
Q. When-last year?
Mr. Sutherland.-A year before last, he said.
The Witness.- The year before last.
Q. What political organization were you connected with before
that? A. What one? There was an organization that was
called the East Side Young Men's Republioan Club.
Q. Had you joined that before you had been naturalized? A.
I beg your pardon, 1 did not.
Q. You did not? A. I joined the club after I became a citizen
and voted.
Q. Prior to the point when you had become a citizen, what
political association were you connected with? A. I did not
belong to any association whatever.
Q. Prior to the point when you became a citizen? A. It was
not my right to interfere in the politics before I was a citizen.
Q. That might be true, and yet the same time you might have
taken one side or the other.
Mr. Sutherland. — Objected to; the witness said he did not
The witness said three or four times he did not belong to any
political organization before he became naturalized. The counsel is still proceeding with that inquiry.
The Chairman.- It is unimportant. I do not see the import;
once of it. He is a Republican now, and it is supposed he has
Republican bias.
Q. Why did you leave Russia? A. Why? It is rather a good
question to ask.
Q. It is because you preferred this country to live in? A. I
left Russia because I am a Hebrew and wanted to attend the
gymnasium there, and on account of my religious belief I was
prevented from attending the gymnasium and wanted to come
where religion is not a preventative for advancement to a young
man.
'Q. That was your motive in coming to the land of the free
and the brave? A. Yes, sir.
Chairman Lexow.-A pretty good reason, is it not?
Senator Saxton.-I would like to have you ask the witness
something about what he said about the policeman going into
the polls with the voters.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Senator Saxton would like to have you say something about
what you saw some policeman going into booths? - A. Yes, sir.




221


Q. Which one did you see? A. Frank Har.
Q. Was there anything said about his going in at the time;
did anybody ask him to go in? A. No; he went in on his own
account.
Q. He went in voluntarily? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he go into the boothe more than once? A. Several
times.
Q. Were voters going in at the same time? A. Each time the
voter went in and said he could not read or prepare his ballots
that officer went in and helped him to prepare his ballots for
him.
Q. Where was the man when he said he could not prepare his
ballot? A. When he passed the chairman of inspectors.
Q. Did he take any oath or swear to anything? A. Only in
one case; and I challenged the man and the officer did not go
himself, and someone else went with him, and I made a note of
it in my poll-list
Q. But in other cases where the officer went in the man did
not take any oath? A. No; none whatever.
Q Who asked the officer to go in with these voters? A. I do
not know who asked him.
Q. Did you hear anybody ask him? A. No.
Q. You were near enough to hear if anybody asked him? A
My place was a little way from the chairman of the inspectors.
Q. How far was you from the chairman? A. The chairman
was sitting in the same place as the stenographer here.
Q. And where were you sitting? A. I was sitting a little to
the left.
Q. How far from him; how many feet? A. About six feet.
Q. And you heard these men. go up to the chairman and say
that they could not fold their ballots? A. No; they did not
go to the chairman; the officer went in on his own account and
prepared the ballots for them.
Q. Did the voter make any complaint about his-  A. Well,
he did not.
Q. He did not say anything? A. Only with that one special
case.
Q. In all other instances the voters did not say anything?
A. No.
Q. Simply the officer followed him in? A. Yes; he went in,
you know, and picked out. his ballots for him.
Q. And in these instances the voters did not make any pretense that they wanted help?  A. No; and they did not ask
the'officer to go in, to my knowledge.
Q. Did the election officers say anything to the officer about




222
going in? W. No; they did not; only I went to the officer and
laid my hand on him, and said, "Officer, this is a violation of
the law;" he said, "This is nothing; I do not mean anything
by it;" and I said, "It is against the law anyway, and don't you
do it"
Q. How many times did you make that protest? A. That
protest I only made once.
By the Chairman:
Q. Was it continued after your protest was made? A. I do
not think it was; I believe it was five or six times before I
called his attention to it, because I was kept busy in writing.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You know this was a violation of the law? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go to the station-house, or commissioners, or
anyone to make a charge against this officer? A. No, sir; I
did not.
Q. Why didn't you? A. Because this matter has been turned
over to the care of Mr. Alfred R. Oonkling, and he said he would
subpoena me before the grand jury, and I thought there was
no necessity of my going before the police commissioner.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. Were you subpoenaed before the grand jury? A. No, sir;
I was not
Q. Did you give your name and the circumstanes to Mr.
Conkling? A. Yes, sir; I did.
Proceedings of the fourth meeting of the committee, March 17,
1894, at 10:30 a. m.
Present- Senators Clarence Lexow, Edmund O'Connor, Daniel
Bradley, Jacob A. Cantor, Charles T. Saxton, George W. Robertson and Cuthbert W. Pound, of the committee.
Appearances as before.
John Sabine Smith, called as a witness, being duly sworn,
testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. I reside in 29 West Thirtysecond street, this city.
Q. And your occupation is that of a practicing lawyer? A.
Lawyer.
Q. Lived in New York how many years? A. At least 25.
Q. And last fall you were connected with the Republican
organization in what capacity? A. I was chairman of the Repub



223


lcan county committee, and also president of the Republican
club at that time.
Q. In that capacity yon took an interest in the proceedings in
various parts of the city on election day? A. Yes.
Q. And made personal visitation at the various election precincts? A. Yes; I did.
Q. Did you visit, among others, certain election districts in,
the Third Assembly district? A. I did.
Q. And do you remember an occasion whezi Inspector Coughlin,
or Conlin was present? A. I do.
Q. You may tell the committee all that you remember of that
circumstance? A. I went to aThe Chairman.-Speak up a little, Mr. Smith, so the conmittee can hear you.
A. I went to a polling place in the Third Assembly district;.
I do not remember the election district; it was on a street that
ran east and west, and found the Republican watcher there;
the Republican watcher had been appointed - had been selected
by the Republican club, and appointed by myself as chairman
of the county'committee; the watchers had been instructed to.
go inside the rail and remain there as the law allowed them to
do; I found the Republican watcher at the polls, and he said
that he could not go inside, they would not allow him inside of
the railing, and I asked him why; well, he said, the police and
the board of inspectors would not let him in there; he had beenX
trying to get in; there was an officer standing right by theentrance to the railing, and as I put my hand on the man's
shoulder and said, now go in, you go right in there, the officer
stopped him; he let him go right up to the entrance and stand
by the side of the entrance and by him; I said that man is not
inside the railing, and he has a right to go in there; the officer
said he could not go any further; I told him he had a right to
go, and he must go in there, the law gave him that right; he
was insolent in his manner, and the chairman of the board if
inspectors was also very insolent; I said I am going back to
police headquarters where I had been before; I am going to
see Byrnes; he said, well, you can do what you like; I went up
to police headquarters and saw Superintendent Byrnes, and
explained it to him; and he called up Inspector Coughlin, and
he told Inspector Coughlin to go up there and put that maa
inside the railing; he jumped into his cab, and I into mine, and
we went back to the place, arriving there at the same time;
when we came inside the door I said to the inspector, that is
the Republican watcher, and we want him inside the rail; he
said that man must go in; the officer said,.no; it is the other




224


way; he can not go in there until 4 o'clock, if he goes in anyway; that is not the instructions; that is not the way we underatand it; the orders from the captain are different; the inspector
said to him the man will go in there and stay there, and he
pushed him right in; and he turned to the officer and put his
hand on his shoulder, and said, "You do your duty, and
keep that man in there, and if you don't do your duty, take the
responsibility;' the officer's head dropped, and the chairman of
the board of inspectors head dropped, and I left there, and that
is all that occurred at that place that I remember.
Q. Did you visit the precinct in the Bowery that day? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. What is the number? A. I can not remember the number;
I went to all three of those precincts, in the district; it was
done in two hours, and done very rapidly, and there wasn't time
to make any memoranda; I remember, this place was on the
Bowery; there was quite a number of people around the polling
place, and I wen.t in just inside the door and inquired after
the Republican watcher; he came forward, and I asked him why
he was not inside the railing; he said they would not let him
go in; he said he had been trying to go in; I spoke up so all
could hear it, and said, "You have a right in there, and here
is your certificate which gives you the right to go in under
the law;" the police officer said, "No; you can't go in there;
I won't have him in there;" then he turned to the chairman
of the board of inspectors and said, "That is it, isn't it; you
can not have it in there;" he said, "Yes; we have no room
in here, and wont have him in here," and then I took the
law out of my pocket and read it to him, and said, "You 'see
this man has a right in there, and I insist on his going in; it
is your duty as an officer to put him in there;" the officer said
that was not the way; I said, " Inspector William has been around
hlis morning, as I understand, at police headquarters, directing
-he thing;" "Well," he says, "I do not know about that; but
the man can't go in there;" then the chairman of the board
spoke up and said to the officer, "Well, you had better clear this
place out;" I said, "I nm here to see this man has his rights;"
he asked who I was, and I gave my name and said that I was
chairman of the county committee, and as such officer I had
appointed this man, and, therefore, I felt an interest in it as
well as a duty to see he had his rights and was put inside;
the chairman of the board then said, "Well, if you don't like
it you will go through that window;" I said, "You can throw,me through the window now, if you think you can do it,"
and nothing further was said about that; I stepped out to the




226


door, and somebody said, "There comes the captain," the captain
of police was coming along the sidewalk; I explained the matter
to him, and explained the law to him; he seemed very indifferent
about the matter, and apparently tried to smooth it over, and he
turned back and said, "How is this;" and so on to the officer
and chairman, and they said, "Well, we can not have this man in
here," and he said, "You see what the law  is; you had
better let him in;" they said, "We do not understand it that
way, and wont let him in anyway;" I said, "I will go right
up to Byrnes.".
Q. Did the captain make any report to you of this- the
police captain? A. I was with him.
Q. Did he make any suggestion to you after he proffered that
request and received that answer? A. He said. "You see I have
told him they had better put it in there, and they do not seem
to do it; I did not know what to do;" "Well." I said, "I am going
to Byrnes," and called to my cab, and spoke to Mr. Murray and
started to get into my cab, and said, "I am going right back to
Byrnes;" "Well," he said, " We wont have any trouble about this"
Q. Who said? A. The police captain; and we walked back in
and saw him put that man right in there, and I turned around
and went right in, and that ended that.
Q. Now, are there still further circumstances? A. I was a.t
another place, I think it was an the Bowery; it was on a street that
runs north and south, where a man was who said, he was the
Tammany captain, that claimed he was the Tammany captain:
he was very noisy, and very insolent, when I spoke to the watcher
and policeman about putting the watcher in, and tried' to drive
me away; but in that case I went back to Superintendent
Byrnes, and he sent Inspector Coughlin down, and Inspector
Coughlin put the man right in, and the policeman gave it up;
I was three times up at Inspector Byrnes' to see him, and he sent
Inspector Coughlin three times, I think, to each of these places,
and he enforced the law, and put the watchers in; he said to
Inspector Williams once that he had sent him around before in
the morning, and now go around and do his duty and see this
thing was enforced; one incident-you asked me of another
incident-it was a little different, and I was coming out of a
basement where the polling place was, and as I came -ip tl. steps
there were two men standing by the steps on the sidewalk; one
was a citizen, and the other an officer; the citizen had in his
hands a lot of small bills, apparently one and two dollar bills,
and a man came out right after me —a man came out who had
just voted, and I saw him hand him some money; I saw a man
that came out after me; the man that came out as I was going
in; the officer was standing right alongside this man.
1.       29




226


Q. How far from him? A. Within three or four feet; I said
to the citizen, I said, "What is the price of votes to<lay, are they
high or low "? and I said it so loud that the officer could hear it,
and he did not make any answer, and then I went in; of course
the officer was right there in view of the whole thing, in the
hearing of it                              f
Q. And it was in his sight also? A. Yes. sir.
Q. You say this man had his money openly in his hand, displaytng it? A. Ye,
Q. And passed the $2 to the man? A. I did not see how
much he handed him.
Q. He passed whatever he did pass him openly knd above
board? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did not make any attempt to go behind the bush? A.
Not at all.
Q. Is there any further circumstance that you now recall? A
I do not know that there is. 
Q. If I understand you correctly, it required the active inter.
ference of Inspectors Ooughlin and Williams to compel the police
officers stationed at the polling places to protect the Republican
watchers in the station provided for them by law? A. Yes, sir;
in some cases when I came around they took the watcher in after
pressing the matter; but the watchers, with hardly an exception,
I think no more than two or three were outside the rail everywhere we went through the whole 26 election places.
Q. And were unable to gain admission until you took these
aofive steps? A. Yes, sir.
(No cross exainationa)
Mr. Sutherland.-Do the committee desire to ask any questions?
The Chairmnan —No questions by Mr. Nicoll?
By Senator Bradley:
Q What was the captain's name you referred to? AL I do
not remeamnber his name.
Q. What precinct was he captain of? A. He was captain of
the precinct which embraces the Third Assembly district, or at
least that election district where we were then; I do not know
the number.
Philip Strobel, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified
as followsi
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you live? A. Forty-nine Eldrigle street




227


Q. What is your occupation? A. A pressman.
Q. Were you a Republican captain and watcher at the last
election? A. I was an inspector.
Q. And at what polling place did you serve? A. Forty-nine
Eldridge street
Q. What is the number of the election district? A. The
sixth election.
Q. Of what Assembly district? A. Third Assembly.
Q. By the way had you had a hand in unearthing illegal
registration before that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it a fact that it had become known, your connection
with that? A. I suppose so.
Q. It was a matter that was talked about, was it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And as an inspector did you sit as a board of registry? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Yourself? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You may tell the committee what you know of the conduct of the police on the registration days, and on election day?
A. Not on registration day; on election day I had no bother
with the police at all; I did not have any trouble on the registry
day with officers, but on election day when we opened the polls
our watcher wanted to go in inside of the rail, and the officer
came along and told him he had no business there and must
go on the outside.
Q. Can you raise your voice a little bit? A. On election morning the officer insisted on my watcher being on the outside of
the rail, and the watcher told him he had a right on the inside,
and the officer told him he did not, and he opened the nianual
and read the law to him and showed him where he had tlhe
right; the officers seemed to be satisfied with that; the ronndsman came around and told him he must come out, and put
him out.
Q. Who was with roundsman? A. I do not know his number.
Q. Do you know his number? A. No, sir.
Q. Well, go ahead? A. Then he got outside of the rail and
satisfied the officer, and afterward the candidate for district
attorney and civil justice came along, and they told him they
would see we got our justice; and they went down and saw
Inspector Byrnes, and he sent up Inspector Williams; Williams
told us we had a right to have our watcher on the inside of the
rail; so, anyhow, he said if the place was too small it would
be better to keep him on the outside; so, the watcher, being
satisfied he had a right on the inside, if he chose to he there,
stayed on the outside to satisfy the police and have no trouble;
early in the morning a young man came in to vote, and the




228


officer wanted to arrest him as an illegal voter; T made the
man swear in his vote before he was arrested, and when he was
alken down to the station-house Devery asked him what his
politics was
By Mr. Cantor:
Q. Were you there?. I was not there.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. How do you know he asked him that? A. A man told me
the next morning, when I went to court the next morning to
identify him.
Q. Who was there then? A. The man who was arrested,
a Mr. Schats, and his mother, and one or two policemen.
Q. The man that was arrested is named Schats? A. Yes,
sir; Bernard.
Q. Where did he live? A. Thirty-eight Eldridge street
Q. What was he arrested for-for illegal registration? A.
He was supposed to be illegally registered.
Q. What was said in the police court about it the next morntng? A. The judge asked me if I knew him, and whether he
was a legal voter, and whether he lived there, and I told him
I verified the place twice, and found him to be a resident there;
and he was discharged; and then he wanted me to go down to
the Press office with him; and make a statement of the particulars; that he was a legal voter; and have it rectified in the
papers; and I told him he had better go himself, it would be
just as good; and he made a statement to the Press, and the
Press the next morning stated what Captain Devery asked him,
eto.
Q. Now, did you see any cases of personal violence that day?. No, sir.
Q. Or any other circumstances in connection with the conduct of the police? A. No, sir; that is all that happened.
Q. Does Mr. Schats live at that same place now that he did
then? A. I think he does; his mother is janitor of the building.
Q. And is this address the number of the flat you are speakiing
of? A. Yes.
Q. What is the address? A. Thirty-eight Forsythe street
No cross-examination.
Bryant Willard, called as a witness, being duly affirmed,
testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Two hundred and twenty-one
zVest One Hundred and Thirly —thild street.




229
Q. Two hundred and twenty-one? WA. Two hundred and
twenty-one.
Q. What is your occupation? A. I am a law clerk and student.
Q. In whose office? A. William S. Comstock.
Q. How long have you resided on One Hundred and Thirtythird street? A. Something over three years.
Q. Always lived in New York? A. No, sir; not always.
Q. How long have you lived here? A. I have been here about
three years this time.
Q. During that time have been a law student? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where is your voting place, Mr. Willard? A. My voting place is on Eighth avenue-Seventh avenue.
Q. What is your election district? A. Twenty-eighth Assembly and twentieth election.
Q. Did you have any official connection with the election n last
fall? A. I was watcher in the Third Assembly district.
Q. In what election district? A. Sixth.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You are a Republican watcher? W. I was appointed by the
Bar Association and the Republican County Committee, both.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You were also a Bartlett wafcher? A. I had two certificates; I was a Bartlett watcher and a Republican watcher.
Q. Did you visit the polling place at the opening of it? A.
Yes, sir; I was there at half-past 5.
Q. State what you saw in regard to the conduct of the police?
A. The polls opened at 6 o'clock, and I had presented my certifioate, and had some dispute with the chairman and board of
Inspectors as to my right to be in the rail.
Q. Who was he? A. His name was Samuels; it was the same
district as the previous witness was in, and I read the law to
him, and he consented to go inside a quarter past 6; Mr. Lewis
demanded I be removed from within the rail, and I objected an 1
started to read the law, whereupon a roundsman 3163f, whose
name I believe is Sullivan, he came in and removed me, and cut
m- off in the middle of reading the law —cut me off in the
middle of the reading of a sentence, and chucked me outside of
the rail. 
Q. Had you the manual in your hand whepi he oame in? A.
I did; I was reading the law.
Q. How did he remove you; whatdid he do? A. He caught
hold of my shoulder; I did not offer much resistance excepting
to talk to him; I offered no physical resistance.




230
' Q. What did you say to him? A, I told him I had a right
there, and if he looked at the law he would see so; he said it was
not so at all, and I must go outside; I persisted and went outside, and continued to persist I suppose 10 or 15 minutes, and
he went out; this roundsman was not regularly attached to the
polling place. 
Q. Who was the policeman regularly attached to the polling
place? A. Their numbers-I have their numbers on a memorandum.                                               1
Q. Have you it with you? A. I have it with me (producing
memorandum), 369 and 953, two policemen regularly attached
to the polling place.                                 I
Q. Was there another policeman there?   A. There was
another one that came in there a number of times, the same as
this roundsman; his number was 2467; I think his name was
Parker.
Q. Fred. G. Parker? A. I think that was his name; I continued this protesting for 10 or 15 minutes, and finally I was
allowed to read the law again, and the roundsman was not then
present.
Q. That is, this Roundsman Sullivan? A. 3163; yes, sir; and
finally the chairman allowed me inside, and I went inside and
stayed there 10 minutes, and the roundsman returned, and without any body saying anything to him, came inside the rail, and
said, " My captain says you have no right in here," and he took
me by the shoulder and put me out again, this same man
Sullivan.
0. What did Parker do, if anything? A. He did not do anything, but vilify me, and he said, I had no right in the polling
place, and he would put me out if I did not shut up; and I did not
shut up, and he did not attempt to put me out.
Q. Now this was roundsman 3163 who came in and removed
you the last time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was anything said by the chairman of the board of inspeetors when he came in? A. He did not request hin to
remove me; no, sir; after he had removed me he said-after
I again demanded to be admitted-he said, "I have got to
ta1,1p oflrs from the captain."
Q. Did you see anything with regard to the handling of the ballots during the day? A. Ye,, sir.
Q. What was it? A. Well, the chairmian and board of irspectors on several occasions opened the ballot before depositing it,
and opened the ballot, and apparently looked at it, and apparently
mnwde some si.n to a worker outside.
Q. Where was the policeman at this time? A. He stood
beside me outside of the nail.


1
I
i:i
i




231


Q. And could see as well as you what was going on? X.
Yes, sir; I think so.
Q. What did you do or say about that? A. I objected on two
or three occasions; the chairman would simply say, "What is
the matter with you?"; it was done so it wasQ. Was this said back and forth in tones loud enough so the
policeman could hear it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was the policeman? A. Alongside of me.
Q. How far were you from the chairman of the board of
inspectors? A. About the same as from here to you.
Q. About 14 or 15 feet? A. Yes, sir.
Q And the policeman was facing the chairman? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you saw the chairman open the ballots? A. Yes, sir;
he opened it with one hand, and he opened it with his thumb;
and while he was looking at the book he opened it with his
left hand; he would just poke it open a little that way, and
then make a sign; he would make a sign after the ballot was
deposited; I would see him make some expression to the workers
outside; I protested a number of times.
Q. When you protested, what did you say? A. I said, "Here,
I want you to stop looking at the ballots in that way."
Q. The policeman could hear the charge that he was looking at
the ballots in that way? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What would the chairman reply? A. "Oh, what is the
matter with you kicking up this disturbance?" whenever I
opened my head I would be threatened with ejection, and they
said I was interfering with the voting.
Q. The policeman never interfered to protect you? A. No,
sir; the policeman did not interfere.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Did you have a certificate from the Republican county
organization as watcher? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who had signed it? A. It was signed, I think, by two
men, the secretary-I think Mr. Smith signed it; I have it
in my pocket.
Q. It was signed by John Sabine Smith? A. I think it was.
Q. As chairman of the county committee? A. I think it was.
Q. Was any objection made to the regularity of your certifieate? A. There was not.
Q. None at all? A. Not at that time.
Q. Was there at any time such objection made? A. Well, no;
there was not.
Q. Wasn't there some objection made on the ground that the
ertificates had been issued in blank and had been filled in




'232
afterward by persons not duly authorized? A. No, sir; the only
reason, I understood, was that when I went before the grand
jury I think that question came up.
Q. That your certificate was regular? A. That it was regular?
Q. It was regular; it was filled out by Mr. Smith, and signed
by Mr. Smith? A. I don't know; it was signed by him
Q. Who wrote your name in? A. I do not know; it was all
filled in when I got it.
Q. Who handed it to you? A. I don't know but it was Mr.
Smith himself; I would not swear to that.
Q. Where? A. At the Republican Club, the night previous
to election.
Q. Did you present it to the inspectors? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he examine it in your presence? A. Yes, sir; several
times during the day.
Q. There was a Republican inspector there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And two Democratic inspectors? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you present it to the whole board? A. I presented it
to the chairman.
Q. Did the chairman refuse to recognize it? A. He did not;
no, sir.
Q. Why didn't he admit you then within the rail? A. He did
admit me; he admitted me in the first place, and the rolindsman
removed me, and then he admitted me again, after I read the
law to him.
Q. Did-the roundsman remove you of his own motion or on a
demand of the inspector? A. At first he removed me by the
demand of the Tammany worker, and the &cond time he started
right for me, and said, "My captain said you have got to be
outside the rail;" and there was a chorus of "That's right."
Q. There was no complaint on the part of the inspectors, your
being present? A. No, sir.
Q. The inspectors made no complaint to the officer? A. No,
sir; they did not
Q. So far as your relations to the inspectors was concerned,
they were agreeable, were they not? A. No, they were not
agreeable; after he removed me the second timeQ. I am speaking before you were ever removed; what I mean
to say is, the inspector had found no fault with your being
present there? A. No, sir; he had not; he had admitted me
twice.
Q. He admitted you in the morning, and you were there
standing near the rail, I suppose? A. Inside the rail.
Q. Then the roundsman, of his own motion, without anyA. On the motion of the Tammany worker, removed me; that




233
is, he grabbed hold of me, and I walked along with him; I did
not resist him.
Q. I mean to say, it was his command which induced you to
go out? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You did nothing at all; you had made no disturbance?
A. Well, I had had considerable to say; I had challenged a
couple of men, and made some remarks, and had not made any
disorder.
Q. You had made speeches? A. I had said something.
Q. Had you done more than your share of the talking? A.
No, sir; I don't think I did.
Q. You don't think you had? A. I am pretty sure I had not.
Q. Had you taken a very large part in the controversy? A.
Not at that time; that was only 15 minutes after the polls
opened; I had not got started then.
Q. You had not got steam up then? What was the provoking
cause of your getting out; what was the thing that induced the
representative of the regular Democratic organization to complain to the roundsman? A. Well, I don't know; I presume at
that time-I don't think there had been any trouble; I presume
that I was asking for the names of the voters as they voted.
Q. That was what you were there to do, to watch; wasn't it?
A. Yes, sir, to watch; and I don't remember that I had had any
trouble, or challenged anybody, at that time; that was only
15 minutes after the polls opened; but what I had to aay
was, "Mr. Chairman, will you give me the name and address of
that voter," as the man came up to vote; many of them were
foreigners whose names I could not understand; that was all I
had to say, to talk upon before that.
Q. You asked the chairman, as the voter approahed the ballot clerk or came to vote? A. Yes, sir.
Q. For his name and address? A. For his name and address,
so I could check it off of the list.
Q. Was there another Republican watcher with you? A. No,
sir.
Q. Were you the only one there? A. The only one I saw
anywhere.
Q. Was it not complained that your proposed comparison with
your list and the other list delayed the taking of the vote?
A. It was not; the Tammany watcher was doing the same thing.
Q. The same thing? A. Yes, sir; one of the Tammany
wabehers.
Q. Then if that was so it was not necessary for you to ask for
the name and address, because the chairman was calling it
out all the time? A. Not necessarily; sometimes he called it
L,       30




234


out and sometimes the Tammany watcher called it, and sometimes I called for it, and sometimes another one of them asked,
some knew some of the voters and I knew none of them.
Q. Weren't you conscious of having made any disturbance,
or disorder, or loud talk, or put any obstruction in the way of
taking the vote during the first 15 minutes? A. I made ro
obstruction of the voting; no, sir.
Q. You wish us to believe this was an entirely unprovoked exercise of authority on the part of the officer in ordering you out?
A. \ es sir'; i,;. - ieu;l J   uy ii the tL miany worker.
Q. It was without any claim on the part of anybody that you
were disturbing the election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you make any complaint of the conduct of this officer
to headquarters? A. To police headquarters?
Q. Yes. A. No, sir.
Q. Did Inspector Williams or any other inspector of police
come there that day? A. Inspector Williams did, I think, and
Inspector McAvoy.
Q. Did you complain to them? A. I explained to Inspector
Williams i'hat I had been excluded from the guard-rail; he notifled the chairman I had a right to be inside the guard-rail.
Q On his notification did you return to the inside of the guardrail? A. I went inside th<i -mard-rail and remained a few
moments, and then came outside to a chair, which I see just
outside; but I reserved my right in case I became crowded any
way to go inside the rail; and for the rest of the day I sat outside
in this chair: sometimes T was standing up.
Q. You mean to say when you was outside the inspector of
police installed you in your position, and then you voluntarily
went outside to sit in the chair? A. I don't think I went inside
when Inspector Williams was there; he stated I had a right
inside the guard-rail. 
Q. What time of the day was that? A. It was sometime iI
the forenoon, I think; about half-past 11.
Mr. Sutherland.-He had been already twice ejected from
behind the rail.
The Witness. —After that he went out and drove away somewhere, and then I went inside the rail and said something to th,1
chairman; I said, "You see, I was right in the first place," and
we had some little talk, and I said, "Well, I will stay omtside;"
there were two chairs, and one was occupied by the TamLianv
worker, and I said, "I will sit out there if I am not crowded, but
if I am crowded so I can not take my notes, I will come inside."
Q. Was it crowded inside? A. Inside the rail? oh, no
Q. Why didn't you stay inside the rail when your rights had




235


ieen etablish.ed? A. I thought it was just as easy to sit down;
I was pretty tired.                                 '
Q. That was the reason? A. That was the reason..
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. But you had twice been ejected before Inspector Williams
came there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. By the way, did you get a copy of the instructions given to
the police? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have you it with you? A. I have. (Witness produces a
paper.)
Q. I will ask you whether there is anything in there in regard
to the rights of watchers  A. Not to their rights to be inside
the rail; no, sir.
By Senator Saxton:
Q. The first time you were ejected you had not been there but
15 minutes? A. About 15 minutes. 
Q. You had not done anything except to check off the names?
A. Yes: if you allow me to consult this memorandum.
Q. Had you done anything beside that up to that time?:A
No, sir.
Q. And you was doing what the Democratic watcher was
doing? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the names you called for were the names you did not
understand? A. I did not catch the name or address; the names
were mostly those of foreigners.
Q. Did you ask for the names in a respectful way? A. Yes,
sir. 
Q. There were no words between you and the officer up to the
tine you were first ejected? A. No, air; I had no trouble at all.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You say the roundsman, when he came back again, told
yom that the captain's order was to not allow you inside the
rail? A. He said "My captain has directed me not to allow
you inside the rail;" I think Captain Devery was in at that
time.                      ' 
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Nothing, however, was done in reference fo the Democratic
worker; he was not interfered with? A. No; but he did not
attempt to go inside the rail; he weighed about 400 pounds,
and I don't think he could have got in there.




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Mr. Sutherland.-T desire to offer in evidence this circular
issued by the police department of New York on the 4th day
of November, 1893, to the election officer. I have already interjected the purport of it by asking a question.
Senator Cantor.-You had better transfer the contents of the
paper to the record.
"POLICE DEPARTMENT OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK, 
BUREAU OF ELECTIONS, 300 MULBERRY SIREET,
"NEW YORK, November 4, 1803.
"To Eection Offcers:
"The special attention of inspectors, poll clerks and ballot
clerks is called to the following in connection with the performance of their duties under the Election Law of the State,
copies of which have been already furnished:
"1. The ballot clerks shall not fold the ballots for the voter,
but they may instruct him how the ballot should be folded, by
folding a sample ballot in his presence. (Section 64, Election
Law.)
"2. If, from any cause, the official ballots shall not be ready
for distribution at any polling place, or if the supply of ballots
shall be exhausted before the polls are closed, unofficial ballots,
printed or written, made as nearly as possible in the form of
the official ballots, may be used. (Section 70, Election Law.)
"3. The inspectors of election shall, if requested by any
watcher, during the canvass, exhibit any and all ballots cast at
the election to such watcher, fully open, and in such a condition
that they may fully and carefully read and examine the same,
but the inspectors of election shall not allow any such ballot
to be taken from their hands. (Section 77, Election Law.)
"4. In case of the absence of a poll clerk during the canvass
of the votes one of the inspectors may perform his duty. (Section 78, Election Law.)
"5. Should any question, not distinctly provided for in the
Election Law, arise during the voting or canvass of the votes,
it is to be decided by a vote of the majority of the inspectors,
who are advised not to put a strained or technical interpretation
upon the statute.
"6. At the close of the election the package of undistributed
ballots in each polling place shall be addressed to the bureau
of elections, and be delivered by the chairman of the board of
inspectors at the station-house of the police precinct in which the;he polling place is situated, where a receipt will be given for
the same.




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"7. Registers and other returns will be filled as follows:
"By chairman board of inspectors.
"1. Inspectors and public copy in one envelope at bureau
of elections.
' 2. Poll-lists, one at bureau of elections and one with county
clerk.
"3. Statement of canvass (one copy), at bureau of elections.
"4. Ballot clerk's statement at bureau of elections.
"By inspectors (other than chairman):
"1. Inspector's copy of register at bureau of elections.
"2. Statement of canvass, one copy, with county clerk.
"3. Statement of canvass, one copy, with clerk of board of
aldermen.
"By poll clerks:
"1. YTally, one copy, at mayor's office.
"Tally, one copy, at bureau of elections.
"2. All vacancies of inspectors, poll and ballot clerks can be
filled only by the board of police. (Section 11, Election Law.)
"By order of the board of police,
"T. F. RODENBOURGH,
"'Chief of Bureau of Elections."
Robert Stral, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified
as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You are a resident of the city of New York? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have been how many years? A. Twenty-eight years.
Q. Where did you vote last fall? A. Sir?
Q. Whereabouts did you vote last fall? A. Sixth election
district.
Q. And what Assembly district? A. Seventh.
Q. Seventh Assembly district and sixth election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell the street and number of that place? A. Yes sir.
the number is - Attorney street; and the number is 116; the
street is Attorney street, and the number is, I believe, 160.
Q. What is the name of the street; Attorney street? A. Attorney street.
Q. What time in the day did you go there to vote, Mr. Strahl?
A. About dinner time.
Q. About dinner time? A. I can not exactly say; about dinner
time. 
Q. Did you see the policeman there? A. I think I did.,


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Q. Do you Lnow his name or number? A. His number I do
not know.
Q. Can you tell his name? A. Clark.
Q. Now, did anything happen to you as far as this policeman
was concerned? A. No, not exactly; I went into the booth to
vote, peaceably, and when J was in the booth about two minutes
the chairman of the board ordered an officer-no, first he hollered,
" Strahl, your time is up;" I said, "Mr. Chairman, you know 1 am
only two minutes in the booth; I have a watch with me," and I
did not go out, and he ordered the officer to bring me out of the
booth; the officer opened the door of the booth and said, " Strahl,
your time is up," and I said, "You know yourself I am only three
minutes in the booth; will you please close the door, when I am
not through;" and he closed the door, and I stayed in there, aiid
when I was through I came out and voted; but about goiig out
I was hit on my head by one of the Tammany heelers.
Q. Where was the policeman when this man hit you on the
head? A. One policeman was inside.
Q. How far was he from you? A. About three feet; he was
inside.
Q. Did he see this assault? A. He did not see it.
Q. He turned around, did he? A. Yes.
Q. Where was the other policeman? A. The other offir.er
stood outside; then I was hit by going outside; one of the Tammany heelers, a different man, jumped outside and said, in front
of the officer, and said, "You are nothing else but a loafer;' so
I said, "This is a nice way to treat citizens when they go to
vote;" and so the officer did not say a word, but he laughed.
By Senator Saxton:
Q. Did you see the officer turn around? A. A different officer
stood inside.
Q. You said when you was hit the officer turned around; did
you see the officer turn around after you came out of the voting
booth? A. When I came outside the different officer was
standing there; and this time, inside, a different Tammal uijy
heeler came out, and said, "You are nothing else but a loafer,"
in front of the officer, and I said, "This is a nice way to treat
a citizen."
Q. I understood you to say, when you came out of the booth,
a Tammany man hit you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You said then, that the officer turned around? A. Yes,
he did; he did not want to see it.
Q. Did he turn around after you came out and before you
was hit; did you see him turn around? A. Inside; certainly.




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Q. At the ime yon was hit, did yon see him turn nround and
turn his back toward you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he was three feet away? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. And the man that hit you was a brother of the chairman
of the board of election? A. Yes, sir; a man of the name of
Schair; and in the evening I was watcher there; I had my
paper, and I went inside the railing, and one of the Tammany
leelers ordered the officer to order me outside the railing, and
I went outside the railing.
Q. In 1892, were you United States marshal? A. Yes, sir;
I was.
Q. And at what polling place did you serve then? A. The
same place.
Q. The same place? A. Yes, sir.
Q. These people seemed to know you, then? -A. Yes, sir; I
had a falling out with the same man at that time; he
wanted to hit me beause I entered the polling place.
Q. Who hit you? A. The same man that hit me this time.
Q. You ordered him out of the polling place in 1892? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Who was the policeman that was there then? A. The
same officer I mentioned before.
Q. Clark? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ask him to assist you on that day? A. Certainly; he said, "Mr. Strahl, you know you are far superior to
me than I am to arrest a man."
Q. You called upon him to help you arrest somebody? A.
Yes; I told him-he ran away; I had him, and the officer did
r? i 0'' o i so ou ick: and after, I Jad to let hiun loo-,:, he
was a big, powerful man; the officer came out and said, "W'ha
is the matter there?"
Q. You had arrested a man yourself, had you? A. I could
not; I was not strong enough.
Q. Had you taken hold of him for the purpose of arresting
him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he was a larger and stronger man than you? A. A
powerful man; the officer came out when he was across the
street.
Q. The policeman would not assist you, until thie man had
broken away and gone? A. Yes, sir.
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. This was in 1892? A. Xes, sir; in 1892.




/ 240
Oross-examination by Mr. Nicoll
Q. In 1892, you were the boss of the polls, weren't you? A.
Yea, sir.
Q. You were the United States marshal? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your orders were obeyed? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you got into a feud —into a row with one of these
men? A. Yes; one of the heelers of Tammilany; he stood
around there, and I ordered him out of the room, and he went
from me.
Q. He stood around the polls? A. He was inside.
Q. And you ordered him out? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what did he do? A. When I ordered him out he
wanted to hit me, so I called the officer and held him, and I
called the officer, and before the officer came out he ran across
the street and I did not interfere any more with him.
Q. He ran away? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then he succeeded in hitting you in 1893? A. No, he did
not hit me; but he only went for me; he wanted toa
Q. That was what he did in 1892? A. Yes, sir.
Q. lBut in 1893 he did hit vou? A. Yes, sir; he did.
Q. He tried to hit you in 1892? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And succeeded in hitting you in 18' 3? A. Yes.
Senator Saxton.-One year.
Mr. Nicoll.- One year to take him to hit him, ye.
Q. Now, as I understand you to say, in 1893, the year in which
he succeeded in hitting you, the officer turned away? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Did the officer turn before he had got up his fist? A. Oh,
that time? the officer was not outsideQ. In 1893? A. The officer turned around.
Q. In 1893? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the man square off in a position to hit you? A. In my
going out, he hit me on the head.
Q. Where were you when you were hit on the head? A. I
was just through voting.
Q. Were you going out of the polling place? A. Going out
of the polling place.
Q. And he stood inside when you was going out? A. He
stood inside by the door and hit me on the head.
Q. What with, his fist? A. WIith his hat on my head.
Q. He hit his head against your head? A. He took hie hat
aid hit on top of my head.
Q. Was it a silk hat, a high silk hat? A. No, it was a derby
int.
Q. What part of the head did he hit you? A. The front.
Q. On the crown? A. In front here.
Q. On the top of the derby hat? A. Yes, sir.




241


Q Did it make a fracture of the skull? A. No, not exactly.
Q. It did not? A. No, sir,
By Senator Oantor:,Q. Will you explain what you mean by "Tammany heeler?"
Q. Workers for Tammany; they are called heelers.
Q. Was that Tammany heeler as you call him a watcher; did
he have a certificate? A. No, sir; he was working there.
Q He was inside the guard-rail at the time you had the fracas
with him in 1892? A. No, not the same man; he was not inside
in the evening; it was another worker for Tammany; he was
inside-the captain-called the captain.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did you ask the officer to arrest the man that hit you on the
bead? A. I did not ask him; I said, "Is this a nice way for a
citizen to be treated? " and he stood next to me, and the policeman
laughed.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Who laughed? A. The policeman laughed.
The Chairman. —That is all.
Joseph Gerard, called and sworn as a witness, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside, Mr. Gerardi? A. Forty-five Crosby
street.
Q. What is your business? A. Musician.
Q. Were you a Republican watcher at the election last fall?
r5 Yes, sir.
Q. What was the election district? A. The third.
Q. The Third Assembly district? A. In,pring street.
Q. Do you remember the number? A. I do not remember it
very well, but it is in Spring street, about 66 or 68; two doors
from the corner of Crcsby.
Q. Do you know who the policemen were that were in attendance there? A. I could not tell you; I know him by looking,
but do not know his name.
Q. You know him by seeing him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you tell his number? A. I do not know; I did not
take his number.
Q. Did anything haTppen to you in regard to this policeman?
A. The policeman told me to rgo out from the rail; he said I had
L.       31




242


no busihPsd  o stand in the rail, and go out, so I hald to listen
to him, and he was an officer, and I walked out, and a gentleman
came in, Mr. Morris, and the other gentleman, he says you have
got to stay inside; he said ymnl have the power to stiay there the
same as anybody else, and then the officer he put me out rrain,
and then the gentleman says you go inside, let the officer put
you out, so the officer put me out of the rail, and I was back, and
I stood outside the rail; then after a while Mr. Murray and the
other friend, he went out to the captain and reported, and -ame
down there and told him to put me back there again, and he
told the officer, "I want that man to stay in there, and I want
you to treat him well; he has the same power a.s anybody else:"
so he went away, and I went there until night, when the poll
was closed.
Q. What time of the day was this they finnlly got yon back
there? A. It was in the morning before 12 o'clock, I guess
Q. Just before 12 oclock? A. Yes, sir.
(No cross-examination.)
By the Chairman:
Q. How long were you away altogether? A. I was ont of tha
rail from the time Mr. Murray went out to get orders from headquarters; I could stay there an hour; and they came back and
made me get back of the rail again; that is all.
Adolph Guran, called and sworn as a witness, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Three hundred and ten East
Eightieth street.
Q. What is your business? A. Cigar manufacturer.
Q. How long have you lived there? A. Six months.
Q. Where did you live last year? A. Three hundred and
fifteen Seventy-eighth street.
Q. Were you a ballot clerk last year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What election district? A. Sixteenth election, Twentysecond Assembly.
Q. Twenty-second Assembly and Sixteenth Assembly? A.
Yes.
Q. Do you know who was the policemar in charge of that
polling place? A. I don't know.
Q. Do you remember the names or nnmbers? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see anything going on there under the sight of the
iolice? A. Yes, sir.




243


Q. What was it?  L I seen some of the Tammany work-r-!~
go tig in, both with some of the voters, and helping them to fuid
their ballots.
Q. Where was the policemnan when this was done? A. He
was inside.
Q. How far from the booths? A. Five or six steps.
Q. Did he see this? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did anybody ask these Tammany workers to go in the
booth? A. Well, people came in and brought them in, and they
went right to them.
Q. The people went in that brought them there? A. Yes, sir
Q. Do you recollect the election officers or inlspectots of election asking these workers to go into the booth? A. No, sir;
the inspector did not see them.
Q. Did these men take any oath before the inspectors that they
were disabled? A. No, sir; they were not disabled.
Q. They could see; they had the use of their eyes? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And could use their hands and fingers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They could walk? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they did not take any oath before the inspectors that
(hey were disabled? A. No, sir.
Q. And did not request any assistance? A. No, sir.
Q. The inspectors did not send any in there with them? AL
No, sir.
Q. These men that brought them into the election booth walked
right in with them? A. Yes, sir; walked all in with them.
Q. Where did you say the policeman was? A. He was stand.
tug around in the place.
Q. Within four or five feet? A. Yes, sir.
0. And saw the things that occurred? A. Yes.
Q. This happened how many times? A. About three times.,
Q. Then what did you do? A. I made a kick; I went to the
TRenublican inswector, and he hod it stovped.
Q. Your finally had it stopped? A. Yes, sir.
(No cross-examination.)
Joseph Bonaparte, called and sworn as a witness, testified as
follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherlandl
Q. Where do you reside? A. Seventy-seven Ludlow street.
Q. How long have you resided there? A. Six ysears
Q. And where is your voting place? A. Niumlber 271 Broome
street.




241


Q. What election district is that? A. Twelfth.
Q. In what Assembly district? A. Third.
Q. That is Mr. Murray's district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you a watcher at the last election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In your own voting precinct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who were the policemen in attendance there? A. Who
was the policeman?
Q. Yes; what was his name? A. I can not say; I did not
know the name of any officers.
Q. Do you know the numbers? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you permitted to go —did you have any trouble
about going behind the guard-rail? A. In the morning they
did not allow me behind the guard-rail.
Q. Who did not? A. The police officer. 
Q. What did he say about it? A. He said he had orders from
the captain not to allow any watcher behind the rail; and then
Mr. Murray and Mr. Smith came there and told me to go in.
Q. When was that they got there? A. It was between 11
and 12 o'clock ir the morning
Q. Had you been behind the guard-rail before that? A. No,
sir.
Q Had you made any further attempt to go back there after
the officer told you he had orders to keep you out? A. No; I
did not attempt it until Mr. Murray and Mr. Smith came in and
said I had a right to go in behind the rail, and the officer said I
could not go in.
Q. Did he say so? A. He said he had orders froml the captain, or from whom it is-I did not pay any attention from
whom he said he hld orders-that he had orders not to allow
watchers to go in 'behind the rail.
Q. And Mr. Smith went to the police inspector? A. Williams
camne there, and he took my name, and said, "Ilave you had
any trouble with the watcher?" and I said, "The only trouble
T had was, I was not allowed to go behind the rail;" he said,
"(fficer, you allow this man to go behind the rails, as far as
the ballot-box, and no further," and I did not have any trouble
after that.
Q. That was between 11 and 12 o'clock? A. Yes, sir,
By Senator Saxton:
Q. Who is the captain of your precinct? A. I am the cap
tain myself.
Q. The police captain? A. Captain Devery.




245


John H. Trewhella, called and sworn as a witness, testified
as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland 
Q. Where do you reside? A. Five hundred and thirty-six
Eleventh avenue.
i. And in what election and Assembly district?  t Second
election and Seventeenth Assembly district.
Q. Were you an inspector of election on last election day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. As a Republican? A. Republican.
Q. And as such you were a registry officer as well? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Do you remember the fact that some holuse    on West
Forty-second street and West Forty-first street were burned?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On or about October 18th? A. On October 18th, in the
evening, about 8 o'clock.
Q. And how many voters were registered from those houses?
A. Twenty-five.
Q. And those voters had to take up their residence elsewhere?
A. I believe there was-I have a memorandum somewhere.
Q. If you have a memorandum you can give us the exact
facts? A. There were nine of them changed their residences
to the Eleventh Assembly district, and nine changed their districts, and seven moved out of the election district and swore
their vote in on election day.
Q. These seven that moved out of the district came and swore
their vote In on election day; was the subject of their right
to vote discussed before election day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was it talked up among the officers when they came
in to offer their votes? A. Yes, sir; it was talked up on two
registry days afterward.
Q. Between the last day of registration and election day, did
one of the other inspectors make any report on the subject? A.
Not until election morning.
Q. Who was he? A. Thomas J. McCann.
Q. What was his position? A. One      of the   Tammany
inspectors.
Q. And one of the Tammany inspectors of election? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. An!d on election day, when these men came to vote, what
did he say or do?' A. On election morning, when the polls were
opened, he declared these men ought to vote; and I said I had
made inquiry and referred to the manual and they hadn't any
right to vote, and he said he had seen Commissioner Martin,




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and Commissioner Martin said that if they would t7ke an oath
that they would return and live in the district witlin one year
that they had a right to vote.
Q. You told him you could not find any such provision in the
law? A. I could not in the manual I was furnished with, and
I went to Mr. Mflurray and asked him.
Mr. Nicoll asked to have the conversation with Commissioner
Martin stricken out of the minutes.
The Chairman. —It is perfectly competent on an investigation
of this kind.
Mr. Nicoll.-T ask to have it stricken out as hearsay evidence.
The Chairmian.-The latter part will be, but not the part
relating to Martin- Commissioner Martin.
Mr. Nicoll. —That is the part I ask to have stricken out, the
rest of it I do not care anything about
The Chairman. — Motion denied. His testimony will stand,
Senator Cantor.-For what it is worth?
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Who was the first one of these seven that came to offer
to vote? A. Matthew Wheeland, 547 Amsterdam avenue, who
moved to Amsterdam avenue between Ninety-third street and
Ninety-fourth street outside of the election district; he came
down to vote, and I said he had no right to vote; the Democratic
inspector declared he had, and I told the Tammany inspector he
had not; he asked for his ballots and I allowed him to get the
ballots and come out and I challenged his vote, and he took
his oath according to the manual and declared he was a resident
of the election district, a qualified voter of that place, and I
asked the policeman to arrest him, which he did; the Democratic
inspector McCann went with the policeman and Wheeland to
the station, but Price allowed the man to go; Captain Price told
me afterward at the polling place that he could see no way
to hold the man; and ever since that time on through the day, I
did not see the use of having them arrested; and I challenged
every one, and each one swore his vote in according to the
manual.
Q. This Tammany inspector that went to the station-house
with the first man that was arrested, what was his name? Al
McCann.
By Senator Saxton:
Q. You saw this person take the oath prescribed by law in
the manual? A. He took the oath that he was a legal voter of
the district.




'247


Q. Did you tell the officer? A. I told the officer I am going
to challenge this man; he said, all right, when he oomes out if
you wish him arrested I will arrest him.
Q. Did you tell the officer he was not a resident of that district? A. I did; I told him that tact.
Q. And the officer heard him take that oath? A. Yes, sir.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did you appear before the grand jury in that ease? A.
No, sir; I stated the case to all the people in the district, and
none of them seemed to take interest enough to carry it that far.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. One moment; do you know whether any of those men were
arrested or indicted for perjury? A. No man was ever arrested
since, and no prosecution has been had; I know all the persons
personally; this first man swore according to the oath that he
would move back within a year, and this man Wellman had the
lot and sold it.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You say this man said that (Commissioner Martin made
the assertion that if he moved back and become a resident of the
district within a year, he had a right to vote? A. That is what
Inspector McCann reported, and that is what they all voted on.
By Senator Saxton:
Q: Was that athd administered to them, thatt tiey Intended
to come back and become a resident in a year? A. Yes; and
they took the oath that they were qualified voters
By Chairman Lexow:
Q Did the policeman hear the starement thiat the president of
the board had made such a finding? A. That I could not say.
John E. Gillig, called as a witness, but did not appear.
Henry Rosenthal, called and sworn as a witness, testified as
follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. What is your name? A. Emil Rosenthal.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Two hundred and seventy-two
Rivington street.




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Q. And you resided there last year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you vote last year? A. Eighty-six Columbia.
Q. Do you remember the number of the election district? A.
Thce Fifth Assembly.
' That the Third Assembly district? A. I could not tell you,
the Fifth Assembly.
Q. Let me ask you: Do you know Adam Reinhardt a.nl Joselph
Berger; is that the place where they vote? A. Down in a tinmnirk's place.
Q. Could you give us the number of Columbia street? A.
Eighty-six Columbia street
Q. Yes, that is the same number; do you know an Adam Reinhardt? A. Yes, sir.!
Q. Do you live in the same house with him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you vote in the same place where he does? A. Yes,
sir.
Mr. Sutherland.-That, if the committee please, was one of the.
witnesses examined yesterday. I wanted to show it was the
same polling place and the same policeman.
Q. Do you know the name of either of the policemen? A.
No, sir.
Q. What time in the day did you go to vote? A. Between? 0
and 11.
Q. What happened to you while you was there? A. When 
went in the booth an officer came in and asked me for whom!
voted; T said, "I don't tell you."
Q. Was it the police officer? A. The police oficer.
Q. Wearing his uniform? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He came inside the booth? A Inside the polling place.
Q. Did you ask him to go in? A. No, sir.
Q. Did anybody else ask him to go in? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ask for any help? A. No, sir; he asked me if X
could make it right.
Q. Who did? A. The policeman.
Q. Was that after he came in? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the first thing he said after he got inside?
A. He said, "For whom do you vote?" and T said, "That is my
business;" he said, "I help you so you wiri get quicker done;'
and I said, "I have 10 minutes time to fold up my paper," and
afterward he came in again.
Q. He went out then, did he? A. Yes; he came in again. and
said, "Young man, it is after 10 minutes, make hurry up;" I
said, "If you bother me it will take still longer yet," so after,
when I was done, he made some remarks, and called me some
names; that is all.




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Q. What did he say? A. "Sheeny," something like that
Q. Where was that? A. When I went out of the booth.
Q. When you went up to deposit your vote? A. Yes, sir;
when I got out of the booth to give my vote to the inspectors he
called me these names.
Q. That was the police officer? A. The police officer.
Q. Anything else? A. That is alL
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Did he call you more than one name? I. No, sir; that is
all the name he called me.
Q. What did he call you? A. He said, "You lousy Sheeny."
Q. That is all? A. Yes, sir; and I gave him a saucy answer as
I was going out.
Q. What did you call him? A. I did not call him any name; I
said, "You are an officer, and you know better the rule than I,
that you should not come in here.",
Q. That is when he was in the booth? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You voted for whom you pleased? A. Yes, sir,
By Senator Bradley:
Q. The officer did not go in with you, did he? 'A: When I
went in, and afterward he followed me in.
Q. How long had you been in the booth when he came in?
A. About half a minute.
Q. You did not ask him to go in? A. No, sir.
Q. Nobody told him to go in that you know of? A. No, sir;
I did not hear anybody tell him to go in.
Q. You ordered him to go out? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You didn't offer any violence to him? A. No, sir.
Q. You didn't call him any hard names, did you? A. No, sir.
Q. Although he did call you a Sheeny, you did not call him
any hard names? A. No, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did he tell you why he followed you in the booth? A. No;
he wanted to know what party I voted for.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did he offer you any ticket? A. No; outside he did.
Q. You voted the ticket you wanted to vote anyhow? AL
Yes, sir; they told me they gave a prize, I should take a paster
amd I would get in the evening a prize.
L.       32




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Q. They wiuld pay you the way he wanted you to vote? A.
Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:"
iQ You said the prize would Se given to the man who succeeded in getting out the most pasters in the day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he said he wanted to know who you voted for-this
policeman? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is all he said? A. That is all.
Q. Did you show him who you were going to vote for? A.
No, sir.
Q. Had you folded your ballots? A. One I had; the one I
voted.
Q. Did he try to look at that ballot? A. He did try, but I did
not give him any chance; he said, "Let me see," and I said, "It
is not your business."
Q. Did he put his hand forward to take the ballot? A. He
saiid "Let me see," and I said, "It is not his business," and he
went out
By Senator Saxton: 
Q. Did he see the other ballots not folded? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they on the desk? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he look at them? A. I don't know whether he looked
at them.
By Chairman Iexow:
iQ. How long was he in the booth with you? A. I can not
1ell you exactly; he went out right away.
Q. You ordered him right out? A. Right out, and then he
came out, and he came in again.
Q. How long after? A. About a second.
Q. A short time after? A. Yes, sir; that is all I told him;
I never votedQ You did vote? A. Yes; I did vote.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You told him you would never vote any more if you had
each trouble? A. Yes, sir; I told Mr. Reinhardt, and he saidBy the Chairman:
Q. Do you know who the officer was? A. No; I was too
exqited.




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Q. Did you see his number? A. No; I was too excited.
Q. Have you seen him around there sinoe? A. I don't looki
I mind my business and go away.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. I understand they Offered you a paster outside? A. Yes,
air.
Q. Who offered you that? A. I do not know who it was.
Q. How far from the booth was it? A. Right in the door of
the booth.
Q. Where was the policeman then? A. The polioeman  was
inside.
Q. And he did not stop a man offering you these pasters?
A, Be did not see it.
Samuel Shin, called and sworn as a witess, testified as
follows:
Direct examinationm by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you live? A. Two hundred and fifty-five East One
Hundred and Fourth street.
Q. And whereabouts did you vote last fall? A. In the sixteenth election district of the Twenty-fifth Assembly district
Q. Did you serve as a watcher? A. I served as a watcher in
the fourteenth election district of the Third Asserably district.
Q. That is Mr. Murray's district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have any trouble about the position you occupied?
A. Quite some. 
Q. Who was the trouble with? A. Well, there were 33 names
that were colonized by the Senator, Timothy D. Sullivan, and
200- 
By Senator 'antfor: 
Q. Do you know that?'
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. I want to know what the frouble was? A. The trouble
was thisSenator Cantor.- I ask to have that stricken from the record.
The Chairman.-I think it proper to have it stricken out
The Witness.-I know I wanted to challenge people that dsd
not live in the election district, and that is what I am here for,
and I have no show whatever to have my rights regarded there,
for the very fact was this, that the place was swarming with




12552


heelers; there were 10 or 15 heelers in the place; and I was th!k~
only representative of the Republican party at the time, with
the exception of the poll clerk and ballot clerk and Republican
1J~JCiAI;tiley could not geet any there at all.
Q. What polijemen were 'in attendanceT A. Two policemen.
Q. What were their names? A... don't know.
Q. V tiar  er their numbers? A. I daxit Ko
Q. Did you attempt to challenge these men? A. I challenge4
About 15 of them, and that was all the good that it done.
Q. Did you point out the fact that they did not live there?  A.
I did.I
Q. What did the policemen do or say? A. The policemen went
Outside and were ch-affing one another, and stood around in the
hallway and smoked cigars..I ii dyvoi call Iuipon the police to arrest tiese, mien? A. I co ii d
not arrest them, because I hadn't any warrants; I was executing
warrants for Mr. Murray, and they could not arrest them.
Q. 1D)d you have d:iy difficul~ty in getting inside thle guard-rail?
A. I had all the difficulty I could get.
Q.Who, if anybody, interfered with your standing be1~ind the,
guard-rail? A. The policeman himself dhid not know the law;
he said I had no particular right; I had to stand outside th,,e
gate towvard the street until Mr. John Sabine Smith came along
with Mr. Murrmy and read the law to them; the policeman was
ignorlan19t of the- lawx.
Q. What time of the day was that? A. It was between 10
and 11.
Q. lip to that time they did not permit you to go behind the
guard-rail? A. I head all I could do to keep from getting from
behind the rdfl,
Q. Could you go behind the guard-rail before that? A. No,
Q. Did the 'IPanmany men offer any violence? A. They did
evv       1 thev (0m1l(3
Q. What did they do? A~ They intimidated me..
07. Tell -me how? A. 'They w,-"e, airo-und nie and said, "You had
better not be too fresh, or we'll make a case of you;" I1 can te'l
yoiu,o —ot-t"inqr abouit that.
Q. That is just what the committee want to hear; give them the
facts of what you saw and heard. A. I tell you what I saw; I
saw a man comie in there, and he voted three time-s Ou(TI  ma- lfn's9
name consecutively; the sam~e man, from one house at 233 Broome
street, I think it 'is; and there was 17 registered voters in there,
&iid there was only three actual voters.
Q.You sqv vou saw one man vote three times on thV~ same
name? A. Yefi, sir.




253
Q. How long apart were these three votes? About two
hours apart.
Q. Did you call attention to that fact, that the same man
voted three times on that name? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where were the policemen then? A. Outside.
Q. They went outside the room? A. Out in front of the
door, in the street, talking about the topics of the day.
Q. Did you hear them talk? A. Certainly; they talked loud
enough; I suppose I heard them.
}. Did they hear you challenge the votes? A. I don't sn.
pose they paid any particular attention.
Q. Were they so they could hear? A. There was a doublewindowed store, and there was about five feet on the street;
once in a while I could hear th,_. talking.
Q. How far was that from you? A. About six or seven feet
away from where I was.
Q. Could they see the man going in to vote? A. They did
not pay any particular attention; it was all fixed up.
Q. Please answer what I ask you; were they where they
could see the man when he come in? A. They could; but they
did not want to see it.
Q. But the man came to the doorway where they stood? A.
The door, as I told you; the store was about 12 or 15 feet deep,
a double-windowed store, or about 20 feet front; there was
only one door to come in; they stood outside the show-window;
they generally do on election day; that was a fair day, and they
aired themselves 
Q. They could see every person coming there? A. They
could, if they wanted to; I don't suppose there was anything
to prevent them, especially.
Q. You say this man came three times within a couple of
hours each and voted for the same name? A. Yes, sir; and I
challenged some 30 odd votes.
Q. Did you challenge this man? A. I did.
Q. And they swore him in? A. They swore him in eaob
time, and accepted his vote.
Q. What was the next challenge?
By the Chairman l
Q. Did you challenge on the ground that that man had voted
before? A. I did, sir; and made a specific charge to the
inspector of election, and the evidence was given to Mr. Murray
about that district; there was one particular case of a man of
the name of Matthew Whelan, and he was the first man I
challenged; and I said, "I challenge your vote;" and the chal



254


lenged man ran off outsde, and some of the heelers came along
ard gel bled him up; an hour afterwa.d I went into a closet
in some other house, and while I was away they ran the fellow
in and voted him.
Q. Now, were the police inside of the room at any time during
the day? A. Well, they were in occasionally, when it required it,
just to say they were doing something.
Q. You say the room contained a good many workers? A. I
should say, the captain of that election district, Shapero, he
employed 10 or 15 people that day; they were in sometimes four
or five at a time.
Q. How far from the booth? A. One went inside the booth.
Q. Where were the policemen when these four or five men went
in? A. They did not pay any particular attention.
Q. They did not eject them? A. Not at all; I challenged themn
and that is all the good it did; one of the heelers went into the
booth and picked up his tickets; this man's tickets.
Q. Went into the booth with the voter? A. Yes, sir; and I
protested against it, and the policeman said, "You had better
go out after that."
Q. Where was the policeman? A. He was standing inside by
the window; and it was only when I protested on one or two
occasions, "Officer, if you don't stop this, I will have you locked
up," and when I turned my back the same thing was done over.
Q. When he stood by the window did you challenge the heeler
on account of his going inside the booth? A. I did; the RIepublican inspector said, "I don't want anybody coming back here;"
it was after they got into a little wrangle, and I protested, and
he was going to order me out; the Tammany man interfered, a
fellow of the name of Bloomer, and the policeman said, "You
had better go out," and I said, " I am not going out," and he said,
"You are creating too much guff here."
Q. Which policeman said that? A. One of the two; both of
them belonged to Captain Devery's precinct; I was too excited,
or otherwise I would have taken the number.
0 Xrow. did,nv o+lth.r of these oecnrreneos hammen while the
policemen were in the room? A. One time when Inspector
'v illiasLm came arouln I to tl the ufficer if things did not cniauge
that I would inform Inspector Williams, and Inspector Williams
came around while I was talking to some men about the law,
and as I was going to say something Inspector Williams walked
away; it was done so fast my attention was called away from it,
because I was waiting for warrants to come along.for 30 arrests,
and they voted after swearing in their votes; I was afraid if I
went away and had them locked up they would repeat by the
bushel.




a255 
Q. Did any of these other circumstanoes occur while the
policemen were in the room? A. The circumstances are these,
that there were three men; I went around and verified his stitement; one named Jeremiah White and one named Edmulnd
Booth, who lived on the corner-you see what classic people
they were - and' one fellow of the name of Irving, another
one that lived in that house; and I protested, and he said, "All
you can do is to swear in the vote;" the officer said that; the
policewman said, "Let them swear in their votes."
Q. Was there any other circumstances happened in the presenoe of the polce? A. That is all 1 can recollect at the time
being.;
Orossexamination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You are quite a partisan in politics, are you not? A. I
am always on the right side.
Q. Do you call yourself a partisan in politics? A. I call
myself a good American citizen.
Q. I have no doubt about that; but you know that there are
some men who feel more deeply on party questions than others.
A. Provided it is honest, I believe in politics.
- Q. Are you a Democrat? A. Never was.
Mr. Sutherland.- Could not be after what he has just stated.
Q. Are you a Populist? A. I am a Republican.
Q You say in the electlon of 1892 you were living in One
Hundred and Fourth street? A. I lived there since 1891.
Q. When did you live down town? A. Well, I lived —the
last time I lived in the old —it used to be the "Old Ate;" I
liveil. tere off and on when I was a boy, about 30 odd years; the
last time I lived there was in 1888.
Q. The old eighth used to be a Republican district, didn't it?
A. At one time.
Q When you lived there? A. When I lived there
Q. Who was the Republican leader in that district at that
time? A. John J. Brown.
Q. Are you a member of this association? A. Well, I did ano
likt his class of politics altogether, although a Republican.
although I helped to elect the ticket as much as I could by
voice or action.
Q. Were you a member of the Barney O'Rourke Assocation?
A. I am not very sorry I was not.
Q. You were not a member of that? A. I was not
Q. That was a Republican organization at one time? A. Well,
they were Republicans for revenue only.
Q. Are there such Republicans? A. There are just as good
Tanmmany heelers to-day as there were Republicans themn




256


Q. What is your occupation? A. Well, I am a small cigars
mater on a small scale.
Q. How long have you been manufacturing cigars? A. Well,
I have alwaysbeen a journeyman, until about 15 months ago.
Q. You mean a journeyman cigarmaker? A. A journeyman
cigarmaker; yes, sir.
Q. Now you have gone into business in a small way and you
say on a small scale? A. I suppose I will have to get out of
it if things keep on.
Q. For what reason? A. I suppose on account of the Cleveland times.
Q. What other occupations have you had? A. Well, oacasionally I take the stump in the fall of the year for the
Republican party.
Q. You are a stump speaker? A. I presume I am.
Q. Are you what is known as a " spellbinder?" A. Well, yes;
I can bind a " spellbind" if necessary.
Q. You can do that?  A. Yes, sir.
The Chairman.-I think this is too serious a matter to;oke
about, Mr. NicolL  The tendency of your question is to make it
ridiculous.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. You call yourselves "spellbinders?"
The Chairman.-We understand the motives of the quesdtm.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What other occupation have you besides being a "spellbinder" and a cigar manufacturer? A. Isn't that enough, being
a cigar manufacturer and "spellbinder?"
Q. Have you any other? A. Not at present; it requi,-es a
good raany to make a living.
Q. You have none other? A. Not at present
Q. Have you had any others? A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. No one would know better than you, would they? A. I
don't presume they would.
Q. When was yorl. first participation in politics? A. Well,
it is quite a number of years; I guess about 16 or 18 years ago.
Q. Have you held office? A. I ran for office several times.
Q. Were you never successful? A. No, I was not; I was not
on the right side.
Q. For what office did you run? A. For Member of Assembly.
Q. In what district? A. In "De Old Ate."
Q. In what year? A. In the year 1878, 1879 and 1882.




257


Q. You ran three times? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you been a candidate for any other obfoe? A. NoU
to my knowledge.
Q. Have you ever held an appointive office? A. No, not out.
side; I was being engaged by the State committee in the last
presidential election; that is last year.
Q. Engaged by the State committee? A. Yes, sir..
Q. In what capacity? A. As a speaker.
Q. Not for revenue? A. Well, you know, not for revenue]
that is a peculiar question you ask me
Mr. Sutherland.-I object; the question he asked was, whether
this gentleman ever held an office.
Chairman Lexow.-I do not think it is material whether this
witness received compensation for his services or not
Senator Saxton.-It would not affect his character whether he
received compensation or not
The Witness.-Nobody works for nothing, Mr. Nicoll.
Q. When did you rote on the morning of election day of 1892 T
A. I voted-in 1892, you mean? I am talking of 1893.
Q. In 1893, then? A. I voted in the afternoon between 3 and
4; 1 left Delancey street, where I was stationed, and a watcher
of the Fifth Avenue Club took my place; I left the place I -uess
somewhere around 3 o'clock; a number of votes had already been
cast.
Q. Didn't you vote uptown? A. After that I had time until
4 o'clock; it only takes me 25 minutes to go up there; I stayed
down town until after 3, and then went up to vote.
Q. Was this the old stamping ground for yourself, where you
were a watcher?, A. Well, yes.
Q. Was that a familiar place to you; did you know the citizens there? A. I was not confined to any particular election
disttict, but I was that day; I was stationed there all day; I
thought you had reference to the previous year.
Q. I understood in 1893 you were a watcher? A. Yes, in thfst
same place.
Q. I ask you whether you knew the people there? A. No;,
that was a strange election district; I know some of the people
there.
Q. It was a strange district for you? A. Strange for doing
work there.
Q. Had you ever been an election officer in that district? A.
Not previous to that
Q. Did you know personally the election officers that day?
A. I know two of the inspectors and one of the poll clerks.
Q. You knew them before? A. Yes, sir.
TL     '23




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Q. Friends of yours? A. Yes, sir; one was a particular
friend of mine; one I asciated with.
Q. What is that? A. One was a particular friend I made;
I have so many; one was particularly a friend, thuat I know
more particularly than the others-Mr. Bessemer.
Q. He was an old friend? A. Of some few years acquaintance.
Q. And others you were acquainted with? AL Yes, sir; but
rlightly.
Q. Did you know the voters, generally, in that district? A.
1 know what quality they are; I do not know them, though.
Q. You know   what I mean by my question; were you
tcquainted with the voters? A. Very few.
Q. At what hour was it that the officer said to yron that you
were getting off too much "guff?" A. That was between 9
and 10.
Q. Between 9 and 10? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you given them any Uguff" up to 9 o'clock? A. I
only asserted my rights as a watcher and a citizen.
Q. Did you make a speech? A. Make a speech?,
Q. Yes? A. You don't suppose they make speeches in the
election district, do you?
Q. Some of them do? A. I don't
Q. Did you read the law to them? A. I know the right and
wrong.
Q. Did you read them the law? A. I was not. engaged for
that purpose that day.
Q. What did you do; what was the cause that the officer
Wtated to you that you were giving too much "guff?" A.
Because I protested against a number of repeaters and colonized voters there; and my duty was to prevent these people
from voting, if I could.
Q. You made yourself pretty unanimous, altogether, that
morning, didn't you? A. Well, rather.
Q. You undertook to run the whole election, or part of the
election officers? A. No; I undertook to do what was right.
Senator Saxton.-I would not assume anything like that, 3Mr.
Nicoll.
Q. Were you allowed to remain in the election precct all
day, inside the guard-rail? A. Not until Mr. Sabine Smith
came along with Mr. Murray, and they told the officer to push
me right in, and Mr. Smith said my right is in there; and the
officer did not want to do it first, and Mr. Smith read the law
to him, and the officer was ignorant of the law.
Q. After thtat did you remain within the guard-rail? A. Well,




259


yes, when occasion required it; when I wanted to go out I would
go out to see all things were right
Q. But you were allowed access inside the guard-rail after that?
A. Not until I got this notice from Mr. Smith when he came
there, and told the policeman of his duties, and reminded him
of his duties.
Mr. Nicoll.-That is all.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did the officers offer any violence to you during the day?
A. No, I guess they wouldn't try it
Q Do you know the officer that was there? A. I did not take
the number because I was a little excited; but I do generally,
when I have got anything, keep a memorandum of them.
Q. Did you report to any authority about these repeaters?
A. Well, Mr. Bradley, I told you we knew the repeaters were
there two weeks before election, and these reports were given to
Mr. Murray, and Mr. Murray went down before District Attorney
Nicoll and made these charges and brought them before the
grand jury.
Q. Are you positive Mr. Murray did that? A. Yes, sir; and
Mr. Coughlin organized the colonization of that district and.
illegal registration.
Q. You were not brought before the grand jury? A. I was;
I gave the statement to my inspector, and he gave it to Mr. Murm
ray, and he made a memorandum of it.
Q. You never was summoned before the grand jury? A. No,
sir; not as a witness.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Were you a socialist candidate oa one time? A. Yes, in
1878.
Q. What ticket did you run on? A. I did not run on the
Socialistic ticket, but the (ientral Labo tieket and was indorsed
by the Socialists.




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Proceedings of the fifth meeting of the committee, March 24,
1894, at 10:30 a. m.
Present.-Senators Clarence Lexow, Daniel Bradley, George W.
Robertson and Jacob A. Cantor.
Same appearances as before.
John Marz, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified as
follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Twenty-four Division street
Q. And were you an officer at the last election? A. I was a
ballot clerk.
Q. A ballot clerk in what? A. In the first election district of
the Third Assembly.
Q. The first election of the Third Assembly? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was the poll clerk? A. Mr. Goldstein.
Q. Who was the Republican inspector? A. Mr. C. A. Dias.
Q. What policeman was in attendance art that polling place on
that election day? A. I could not tell you the number.
Q. Can you tell the name? A. His name —one name was
Adam.
Q. Is it Adam Baidick? A. I don't know the full name.
Q. The first nanme was Adam? A. Yes.
Q. You may tell the committee whether any request was made
this policeman?
Mr. Sutherland.-Twenty-four Division street is the residence.
Q. What is your business? A. Machine embroiderer.
Q. Was this policeman asked to arrest anybody? A. In the
morning there were two men in one booth, and I requested him to
part them a couple of times, and he wouldn't do it; all I was told
was to shut up.
Q. Who told you that? A. The officer.
Q. This Adam? A. The only one that was inside the polling
place all day.
Q And his first name was Adam? A. He is known by the
name )f Adam; I could get the number of the officer by next
session; I could easily find it out.
Q. You say there was two men in the booth? A. Two men
in the booth, early in the morning, and we could not separate 
them.
Q. How do you know there were two men in the booth? A.
I see them, and when I called his attention to that, instead of
walking up to the booth, he walked to the door.
Q. He walked away from the door?,A. Yes, sir.




Q. What did you tell him? A. I called his attention that
there was two men in one booth together, and I wanted them
separated. 
Q. And what did he say? A. To shut up.
Q. And then he walked away from the booth? A. He walked
toward the door.
Q. Was that away from the booth? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ask him again? A. About this time the men came
apart themselves; they were done.
Q. What else did you do so far as the police were concerned?
A. The same officer in the afternoon — a man came in, and I
recognized the manj that he was in before and voted the second
time; he was dressed up different, and before he came in and haln
no overcoat on, and when he came in the second time he had an
overcoat on much too short for him, and a brand new silk muffler, and I recognized him, and I was just -there was just a row
with the other ballot clerk, and finally he went into the booth,
and when he came out I protested against the man's vote being
taken, and there was a little row, the inspectors all of them; anj
I asked the officer to arrest the man three times, and he would
not do it, and finally the man walked out of the door.
Q. The man did not finally vote? A. He did vote; but the
chairman accepted the vote.
Q. You requested the policeman to arrest him three times,
and he declined? A. Yes, siir.
Q. Did you see anything happen to the poll clerk, Isaa;c Goldetein? A. Yes, sir; he challenged a man's vote, and there isI think he was sub-captain of Tammany Hall, and he got into
a fight and called him all kinds of names —"a big stiff," and
all kinds like that and told him he did not know his business, and
he should mind his business, and he invited him to come outside.
in the street to settle it
Q. Where did this man stand that said these things to Goldstein? A. He stood inside the door, right in front of the railing.
Q. Right in front of the guard-rail? A. He wanted to get
over it, but the policeman would not let him do it.
Q. Where was the policeman? A. One was inside the rail,
and one standing at the door.
Q. How far was the one inside the rail from Gpldstein? A.
He was just about half way from the door; he was standing
opposite the place where the ballots was.
Q. How far was he from Mr. Goldstein? A. Ten or 15 feet.
Q. How many feet from the other man that was talking; he
saw him, did he? A. He might have been 8 or 9 or 10 feet, I
oan not tell exactly.




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Q. How far was this man Goldstein — low close was he to
him? A. Just about as if Mr. Goldstein was standing here
with the ballots, and this side Mr. Goldstein was sitting at the
table wfth the other poll clerk, and the railing was over that
side where that wall is
Q. About as far as from where yoe sit to the wall?. A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Did the policeman say anything to this man that was
threatening Goldstein? A. Not that I could remember; I had
too much to attend to all the time; I had to keep my eyes on the
ballot alerk, and on the other side I had my eyes on the ballot
clerk.
Q. What was the name of this man that was threatening
Mr. Goldstein? A. Harry Johnison.
Q. Was he the Tammany captain? A. He was subecaptain';
one Tom Sullivan was captain.
Q. He was around there all day? A. Yes, sir; nearly all day.
Q. And worked all day? A. Nearly all day, as much as I
could see of him.
Q. How near did he come to the guard-rail? A. This Johnson?
Q. Yes  A. He was just outside the guard-rail, but up to it.
Q. Was he there frequently during the day? A. Mostly all
the time.
Q. Was he a watcher and had a certificate, so far as you know?
A. He was not a watcher; there was another watcher that stood
behind the chairman of the board inside the rail.
Q. That was the Tammany watcher? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did the Republican watcher stand?  A. About 9
o'clock the Republican watcher came, and there was a dispute
aboout he had no right inside the guard-railing; there was a'
young officer that relieved the outside officer that was outside,
and he said he had a right inside the guard-railing, and the
sane poiiceman I had a fight with all the time said he hadn't
a right inside, and the Tammany captain says he has only a
rigiht inside when the vote is counted, he had no right there
before; so when I called attention to the man that was there
when the polls opened, standing by the chairman-the Tammany watcher-and finally both went outside the railing, but
it did not take long before the.Tammany watcher was inside
again standing behind the chairman, and so the Republican
watcher came in and they stood there all day and nothing was
said agaian.
Q. That is all? A. Oh, I have more; then it was early in the
morning, about 8 o'clock, the repeaters started to work, and
finally when the right man came into vote their names were
Vtut Ad.




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Q. Thaf Is, somebody had already voted? A. Sorme mo-w
insisted they wanted their vote, and the chairman could not give
it to them, and he said he wanted to ask somebody of this thing,
and know a little more about the law, and finally Inspector
Williams came around, and the question was submitted to him,
and he said, if the name is voted on already it can not be voted
on again, no matter whether it is right or not; and finally a man
insisted on voting, and he went down to Judge Andrews and he
got an order to vote.
By Senator Bradleys
Q. Did he vote? A Yes, sir; I thinl seven or eight voted by
the order of Judge Andrews.
By Chairman Lexows
Q. How many men who were entitled to vote were not pei
mitted to vote, that had registered their names and they had
been previously voted upon? A. There was about 25, there was
wrong votes cast before the right voters came; I am not sure now.
Q. So about 18 men were disfranchised on that day in that
election district, because somebody before had voted improperly
on their names? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were those men challenged who voted improperly on other
men's names? A. Early in the morning; it was not found out
until the right party came in and wanted to vote, and that was
found out it was voted on their names; I am not sure whether
it was seven or eight who voted by order of Judge Andrews; but
there was from what I would judge about 25 repeaters that were
voted altogether; in one instance there was one man, I think his
name was Scott, and he came in and said his name was Scott;
just as he received the ballort from me another man came in and
said, "I am Scott," so there were two of the one name; the man
was called back, and it had to be found out which was the right
man, so the chairman said that the man who came in first was
supposed to be the right man, and was allowed to vote; the other
man was fired out, and was willing tc gc out; in the meantinme,
later on, it was proved that neither of them was the right party.
Q. That neither was the Scott entieed to vote there ^ A.
May be the other one that came in was not the Scott either.
Q. How far awway from those two Scotts was the policeman
standing at the time when a dispute arose as to which was the
right Scott? A. It would not be more than 5 or 10 feet
Q. Was the conversation in such a tone of voice that the policeman must have heard? A Yes, sir; because I remember the
chairman of the board saying: "What is the difference, anyhow,
which man votes?n
Q. Who made that remark? A. The chairman of the board.




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By Senator Bradley:.
Q. The chairman of the inspecto r? A. Yes.
By Ohairman Lexow:
Q. You say you saw two men in a booth and called the police.
man's attention to it? A. Yes.
Q. Woldd you be able to recognize those men now? A. Not
if the men were together; I can recognize the man I challenged,
because I have seen him since.
Q. Do you recollect who it was that was with him? A. No,
sir; neither of them asked for assistance; they came in together
in a body, and they went right in one body.
Q. Was one or other of them a worker at the polls there? FAb
No, sir.
'. Do you remember their name? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you challenge? A. 1 could not tell who the manthe officer would not do anything, anyhow; I just called his attention that he should separate them.
Q. When this man who had voted once came back the second
time to vote, did you challenge him? A. Yes, sir.
'. And the o^,hccr sMaid, What ar vow, clha1 ley *int him for? "
A. He acted about the same way as on the two others.
Q. That was what? A. I wanted him to arrest a man, and
he stood there like a wooden Indian.
Q. He refused to do anything? A. He refused to de anything
Q. Did he say anything? A. He said nothing.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You testified he said something before about shutting
you up. A. That was when I called him to separate the two
men in the booth.
Q. That was the first time? A. Yes.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. What tone of voice or bearing did he assume when he told
you to shut up? A. Kind of low; just as he passed me; just as
he passed me he told me to shut up.
Q. He did not pull out his club? A. No, sir.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. He did not pull out his club? 'A. No, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You shut up, I suppose? A. That is all I could do.




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ronss-examinafion by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What time in the morning was it this incident occurred
about the man going in a booth with a voter? A. Together?
Q. Yes. A. It was about a quarter to 7 or half-past 6, or
quarter to 7; it was right from the beginning; there was two
before that he separated.
Q. What? A. The first, about seventh or eighth man, went
in two together, but those he separated right away as soon as he
seen them.
Q. Who separated them? A The same officer; but then two
more came in that he would not separate; that was about halfpast 6 or quarter of 7; it was right in the morning.
Q. I understand you to say that there was two men that
cane in and started to go into the booth together and the
officer separated them? A. He did not separate them two that
went in together; early in the morning, the firstQ. The first two he separated, didn't he? A. The first two.
Q He separated? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the next two? A. They wanted to go in together,
and he turned around, and as soon as he see it, he told each one
to go in a separate booth.
Q. What is that? A. The first two voters came in.
Q. Two voters came in? A. Yes; and they wanted to go in
the same booth.
Q. They happened to go into the same booth? A. They
wanted to go in together.
Q. Did you hear them say anything about wanting to go in;
or did they start to go in? A. The officer opened the door, and
started to pull him out.
Q. Did you hear either one of the voters say anything about
wanting to go into the booth together; or did they just start
and go into the booth at the same time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is the way it happened? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then the officer pulled one of them out? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And leaving one man in one booth, and another man in
another? A. Yes; and one in the next one.
Q. Did it impress you that they had gotten in the same booth
accidentally, in their haste, or something of that sort? A. Not
those two, but the two that came after.
Q. The next two? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did they go in? A. They followed into the same
booth together; they walked in together; they were behind one
another.
Q. They had their own tickets, didn't they? A. Yes, sir;
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tiey were two voters; it was not a worker; it was not to assist
him; they were two voters
Q. It was two voters that got into the booth together? A.
Yes.
Q. And they finally came out, didn't they? A. The second
two; no, sir; they only came out when they were finished.
Q. They folded their ballots in the same booth? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then voted? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were those the only two sets of voters? A. These are
the only two sets that went into one booth, except those that
asked for assistance.
Q. Except those that required some assistance? A. Except
those that required some assistance.
Q. Now, did you ask the officer to arrest any of the Sootts?
A. No; I did not
Q. Did you hear anybody ask the officers to arrest any of the
Scotts? A. The Republican inspector, he made a big kick.
Q. Did yo.i aisk him to arrest him; I am not asking whether
he made a big kick or not; I ask, did he ask him to arrest him?
A. I did not hear him.
Q. You were present all the time? A. I had to watch the other
ballot clerk at the same time.
Q. Had he demanded the arrest of the voter, you would have
been able to hear it, wouldn't you? A. I did not hear it.. Q. You did not hear it? A. No, sir.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. If he had demanded it, you would have heard it? A. I
could have heard it probably if I was not just busy; in one
intst'ance a man came in and he asked him where he had his
ballots; "How about the pasters?" the Democratic poll clerks
went over to the door and wanted to give it to him; I took the
poster out of his hands and the man threw down his ballots
and walked out; I had to keep my eyes on both sides.
By Mr. Niooll:
Q. Were you a Republican ballot clerk there that day?, A. I
was a ballot clerk.
Q. Were you not a Republican ballot clerk? A. I was a ballot
clerk.
Q. Who were you nomfinated by? A. By the solice inspectois; 1 don't know; I got my notice and weint down there and
got sworn in and acted as ballot clerk.
Q. Who sent you down?  I. I got a notioe from police headquarters to go down.




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r Q. Weren't you the Republican representative there un:ler
te statute? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why did you hesitate to say it a moment ago? A. Why, I
could be just the same time an independent man, couldn't I.
Q. Don't you know the law provides the Republican party
shall have  its representative there? A. Yes; I was the
Republican.
Q. You are sure of it now, aren't you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is your business? A. Embroidering.
Q. What do you embroider? A. You had better cope up tf
the shop with me.
Q. Election stories, did he say?
Chairman Lexow — Don't try that
Mr. Sutherland-Dop't ask him such a question
The Witness.- I advise you to come up to my shop with me
and look at it; we embroider different things; I do not embroider
election blanks or anything of that sort
Q. You don't embroider election blanks? A. No.
Q. Where is your shop? A. One hundred and sixty-nine
Greene street
Q. What do you embroider there? A. Anything they want
embroidered - robes.
Q. You embroider anything? A. Robes or anything-tat
is, clothes
Q. What is that-clothes?
Mr. Sutherland.-Anything that is cloth, ie says  He speca
fled clothes as an example.
Q. Has Mr. Sutherland ever been there? A. I have not seen
him there yet.
Q. He seems to know so much about it?
Mr. Sutherland.-Even in the country we have work that is
embroidered occasionally.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. One moment, did you protef against two being in the bootli
The second time you speak of? A. It was the second time, the
second time they wanted to go in, but he pulled him separate
before they folded the ballots; but the second man he would no*
separate them, and did not separate them until they were
through finishing their ballots.
Q. You say you did not tell the officer to arrest any of these
two Scotts who tried to vote improperly? A. No, sir; I did not
Q. Why didn't you? A. Why any kick -that was made did not
stop the man going in and out.
Q. You mean to say your duties were too oneros at the tim
to permit of your doing it? A. Yes, sir.






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Q. You saythe Republican inspector kicked; what do youi
mean by that expression; what did he do? A. When those two
men came in because each one said he was Scott, so -the Democratic inspe~ctor said the first man might go in; he was called
back; he had his ballots already; he was called back, and he
was permitted to go in again, and he said it woualdn't make any
difference anylwow.
Q. Were neither of these -two Scotts c~hallenged? A.. The
inspector challenged -them.
Q. And was the Scott who voted compelled to swear his vote
in? A. I could not swear to that question, because I did not
look aaxyund.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Didn't you say -that you challenged one of the Scotts?!&. Yes; I chiallenged Michael J. Murphy, that was his name.
Q. Couldn't there be two Scortts in one district? A. They didl
not prove to be two Scotts.
Q. What was their Christian names? A. T am not suire whether
tt was Scott; I won't positively swear it was two Scotts; there
was so many coming in; the ins~pector, he has a notice of it,
Q. You did not know whether there was two Scotts registered
or not? A. No, sir.
Q. You did not have a registry list, did you? A. I did noL
Isaac Goldstein, called as a witness, being duly sworn, tesUfled as follows:I
Q. Where do you reside? A. Thirty-four Division street.
Q. What is your business? A. Salesman.
Q. And were you the poll clerk on last election day of the:firsti
el1cction and Third Assembly district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are the Isaac Goldstein referred to by the witness, John
Mlarz? A. I think 'so.I
Q. Who was the policeman in attendance on'that election day?
A. Well, I know his first -name is Adam.
Q,- Don't you know his last n~ame? A. No, sir.
By the Chairman:
Q. Do you know his number? A. No, sr..
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. He says he don't know his last name; did you hear these re
quests, that have been testified to that the policman should- arrest




repeaters; did you hear the policeman asked to arrest anybody 
A. No, sir; not as I remember. 
Q. You did not hear that; what was the name of the Tampanij
captain there that day? A. Ton Sullivan. 
Mr. Nicoll.-That is the same election district?
Mr. Sutherland.-The same case, yes.
Senator Cantor.-What Assembly district is this, Judge?
Mr. Sutherland —Third.
Q. What was the name of the suboatain there? A. I coul
not tell his name.
Q. What was the man that had some trouble with you!X
Henry Johnson, known to be a bunco steerer.
By Mr. Nicollt
Q. How do you know the man was a bunco steerer?
Mr. Sutherland.-You can cross-examine the witness later oni
I have not finished with the witnesa
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where was this man Harry Johnson at the time of the
difficulty? A. He was standing at the gate of the polling place.
Q. And how far from you, Mr. Goldstein? A. He was aibout
15 feet.
Q. And did you challenge a vote; what was the occasion of the
disturbance? A. I challenged a vote, and there was a special
officer there at that time, and I had challenged a vote.
Q. What was the special officer's name? A. I could not tell
you; I don't know as I would know him if I saw him again; he
relieved that regular officer by the name of Adam.
Q. And you challenged the votes? A. I challenged the vote.
('. What did Johnson do?   A. He tried to attack me by
jumping over the gate, but he was stopped by this officer, and he
told me he would wait until he got me outside, and he would
finish me; I told him he had no business there, and the officer
didn't say nothing; he only stopped him.
Q. Stopped him from going over the rail? A. Stopped him
from going over the rail.
(. Had this Johnson a watcher's certificate? A. Not so far
as I know.
Q. Did he claim to be an offctal in any way? A. No sir;
not that I know of.
0. Not that you heard of? A. No, sir.
Q. You objected to his being there? X L Yes, sir; I objected
to his being there,.but the policeman I supposeQ. And when you made that objection he did not show any
certificate to show any authority to be there? A. No, sir,


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270
Q. But the officer allowed him to remain? i Yes, air; the
officer allowed him to remain.
Q. Tell the committee all he said. A. Well, when I had challenged this vote, he told me to keep my mouth closed; and told
me I had no business to say anything, I was poll clerk; I told him
to go out of the polling place, as he had no business there himself; when he attacked me, or attempted to jump over and come
for me, the policenia stopped hinm and that was about all that
was done.
Q. When did he tell yon he would see you outside? A That
was after the policeman had stopped him.
Q. What reply did you make to that? A. I tild him to go
about his business
Q. Did he go? A. No, sir; he stood where he was
Q. Was he inside the voting place all day? A, Yes, sir; all
day.
Q. Did he give any attention to the voters as they came in,
and interfered with them in any way? A. There was a few
repeaters there, and when they wanted to go in and vote there,
he told the inspector they had no business-they should
vote again.
Q. Told the inspector what? A. He had no business to stop
them from voting.
Q. Told what inspector? A. The Democratic inspector; the
chairmna, at least
Q. Where was the policeman then? A. That was the special
officer there; he was in the polling place.
Q. How far from this man Johnson, or this man who told the
inspector to let the man vote again? A. About three feet.
Q. What was there that called out that remark from Johnson;
did somebody object to these men as being repeaters? A. Yes,
sir; the Republican inspector, Mr. Dias, had objected.
Q. He objected, and Johnson said to the Democratic inspector
he should let them vote again? A. Yes; and also Tom Sullivan.
Q. And also Tom Sullivan said that? A. They wanted to
attack the inspector, and in fact myself, at that time also.
Q. What did they say about that? A. They said that the
Inspector had nothing to say; they could vote after some people
had voted on their names; we stopped until they got the mandamuses.
Q. Some men came in whose names were voted on and a
mandamus was procured; this special officer, was he far from
Johnson and Sullivan when he told the Democratic inspector
he was to receive those votes? A. About three feet.
Q And how far wam he from the Republican inspector? A.
About the same distance.




271


Q. So he could hear this challenge, and protest, and comment
from Mr. Johnson? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he interfere with them, with those repeaters, in any
way? A. The officer?
Q. Yes, sir? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember the incident of the Scotts coming in
together? A. No.
Q. You don't recall that? is there any other circumstanae
you recall in connection with the election day, in which the
police were connected, or in regard to which they wele present?
A. Not as I remember.
Croassexamination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Did I understand you to say that after the challenge had
been made that the persons challenged went to the Supreme
Court and got mandamuses requiring them to vote? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And did Johnson insist that those persons whom the
Supreme Court afterward mandamused the inspectors allowed
to vote-were those the ones he said should vote? A. Yes,
sir; whenever they received a mandamus.
Q. Thse were the men he said should vote? A. Yes, before
they had- received the mandamus.
Q. And they afterward got a mandamus and did vote, did
the not? A. Yes, sir.
Q.Where was the bunco steerer when they were voting? A.
He was standing outside the gate.
Q. What did you say his name was-Johnson? A. Harry
Johnsoui; I was told he was a bunco steerer.
Q. What is a bunco steerer? A. 'What is a bunco steerer?
Q. Yes. A. I suppe similar to a confidence man; it is not
necessary for me to explain what a bunco steerer is
Q. What is your idea of a bunco steerer? A. I was told he
was a bunco steerer; that is all I know about it.
Q. That is about all you know about it? A. I suppose get
ting people in and robbing them.
Q. Had he ever tried to bunco you? A. No, sir.
Q. Or any of your friends? A. Not as I know of.
Q. All you know is that is an epithet you heard applied to hii?
A. Yes, sir; that is all I know; I heard it.
Q. And you have applied it here in regard to him? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. You only know it by reputation, doidt you? A. That's the
only way; I have seen him before, and know he was a bunmo
steeer.                                           /




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Q. What is his business? A. I don't know what his regular
business is; I suppose steering people into a place and robbing
them of what they have got.
Q. Why did you suppose it; did he ever steer you into a place?
A.No, sir; I told you, no, sir.
Q. And did he ever steer any of your friend? A. Not as I
know of.
Q. Did any of your friends ever tell you they had been steered
by him? A. No, sir.
Q. You know nothing about it, except what you have picked
up? A. That is all; I just heard a little talk.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You never heard anybody contradict that he was a bunco
steerer? A. No, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Did you ever tell him he was a buneo steerer? A. No, sir.
By Chairman Lexow,
Q. How many were mandamused? A. I think there were
about six or eight.
' Q. How many voters were there who wished to vote fountl
their names had been voted on previously? A. That is the
amount -six or eight, that had received their mandamuses.
Q. Do you know as to whether or not during that day there
were as many as 25 whose names had been voted upon
by persons not entitled to vote on those names? A. Yes, sir;
there were about that number; but there was only six )r eight
that received mandamuses; but the repeaters, there was about
25, I suppose.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Do you know, the day you saw these repeaters voting or
attempting to vote, you called upon the officers to arrest them?
A. No, sir; I never requested the officers to arrest them; I only
requested the officer to, arrest Harry Johnson.
Q. The one you called the bunco steerer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is Harry Johnson at large yet? A. Yes, sir.
By the Chairman:
Q. Did you know  at the ttme these men were voting on
hnproper names? A. No, sir.




273
Q. Tt was only afterward when the real voter -on the name
came forward that you knew that fact? A. 'Yes, air.
letfer D. Fisher, called as a witness, beiug duly swornz testifieJI
as folicws:
1*v Chairman Lexow:
Q.Mr. Fisher, why was it you did not attend upon the sumnmons
a.- a whiiness for the past two sessions of this committee? A..
Because the evidence that I could furnish you is not important
enoiiur1i, I thought, to come down here.
Q. Wfas any attempt made to interfere with your attendanmze
here? A. No, sir.
Q.Nobody suggested to you to remain away? A. No, air.
Svnotor Lexow.- Well, you might as well know, and all other
witnesses, that it is not a question for the witness to consider as to,whether or not their testimony 'is material; the committee will
decide that after hearing the testimony.
Mr. S-utherland.-The witness also ought to know that If
amyb~ody attempts to interfere with or intimidate him, that person
will be guilty of contempt of the Sen-'le.
Mr. Nicoll.-Why should that be insisted upon when the wit.
ness in answer -to the questions of the chairman says no human
being has attemurt-ed to interfere. He simply says he chose to
decide himself that his testimony was not necessary.
Senator Bradleyv.-The counsel in my opinion merely wants to
warn other peor1,Mr. Nicoll.-Wbe~n a. ease arises when some interference has
taken pla~ce it will he time enmouh.
Mr. Rutherland.-IThere is. a witness now in the courtroom
wh o is now undler that sort oV to-trovisin.
Chairman LexeW;.- I think~ it mivlit he as well understood, if
there is any quesflitu of interference or terrorism that this com
mittee will go to the fuill ex-tfut (4f i ts disci-tion and ability to
punish in the most rif!rIiT0-11 Siunr ]known to the law any
attempt at terrovi- Tn, orliny c"'v ots at itntiidation used against
any witness, and] it will follo~w it lip; at least, I will attempt to
have it followed tup to the fulflesst extent of the l-aw.
Mr. Nicoll.- I think fiat is oc-rtainly a very proper resolution;
on the part of the chairnn-an of t!  committee; but with all
respect I protest a-gainst this imipres~sion being created that any
such thing h~as been done.  Now, I have offered to assist the
counsel of this committee in getting any of his witnesses. ait any
time; and at the very outset of this investigation I offered, so fart
L.   35




274


as the police department was concerned and those whom I
represent, to facilitate the committee in every way. I have not
been asked to do anything. I have always been ready to do it;
but as for my clients being charged with interference with the
free approach to the sessions of this committee of any one of
their witnesses, such a thing is absolutely impossible, and no
one would thinlk of such a thing.
Chairman Lexow.-I do not understand such a charge was
made. It was simply called out by a remark made by Mr.
Sutherland that there was a witness here who was terrorized, and
it was called out to express the resolution of this committee not
to permit any terrifying of a witness, and if he is terrified, he is
unreasonably so
By Mr. Sutherland: 
Q. Where do you reside? A Three hundred and fifty-two
East Fifteenth street
Q. What is your business? A. Furniture.
Q. Where did you vote last election? A. Thirty-fifth election
district; Fourteenth street, between First and Second avenues.
Q. What Assembly district is that? A. Tenth.
Q. What policeman was in attendance at that voting place?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know his number? A. I did not look at it.
Q. Did you see him there when you went in the booth? A.
I saw an officer sitting on my left.
Q. How far from the voting booth? A. Well, one of these
half stores-a barber shop, about 12 feet wide, or 11 feet, or
something in that neighborhood; there was a railing right
across.
Q. Across one end of it? A. Across the store; a kind of
railing; the officer sat on the inside in the corirer of the railing,
and here was the entrance you had to pass in to get the ballots.
Q. Please tell us so we can get it down on the record, how
far was the officer from the voting booth that you went into?
A I should judge about eight feet.
Q. About eight feet away; was he sitting with his face
toward the election booth? A. Sitting with his face toward
the side I went in.
Q. What happened you as you went into that booth? A. I
must go to the right now; we are not at the booth; we are by
the railing now, toward the booth; I had to pass through that
railing to get my ticket; when I got to the railing there was
gentleman standing right at the side, outside of the railing, and




275


e hianded me a paster, a very light one, and the man held it
down like that (indicating); I said, in a low tone, "What do
you mean;" he took it in and said no more, and I got my
ticket, and went in and voted.
Q. Do you know the name of this man? A. I do not; he was
not there when I went out
Q. He went away when you went out? A. He went away
before I went out.
Q. Did you look at the paster to see what it was? A. I did
not; I did not take it; I am sorry I did not
Q. You could not tell what kind of paster it was, then? A.
I could not tell; no, sir.
Q. Did you make any complaint to anybody about it? A. I
aid not
(No eross-examination.)
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did any policeman see this being done? A. That I could
Dot swear to.
Q. How far was he away? A. About eight feet, I should
judge; somewhere about that
Q. Was he looking in your direction? A. He was looking
there, tlat way; but whether he was looking at me I don't know.
Q. Do you know whether the person who handed you this
ballot was a worker —a political worker?  A. He had no
badge on. 
Q. Would you recognize him if you saw him again? A. I
don't think I would; he was a dark-complexioned man, and stood
about five feet eight
Q. Could you say whether he was doing that right along, or
whether it was simply a single case? A. This was only in the
cae I was speaking of; when I came out he was not there; he
had disappeared.
Canute A. Dias, being called as a witness, was duly sworn,
and testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. No. 32 Division street
Q. What is your business? A Proof-reader on the Christian
Enquirer.
Q. Were you an inspector of election at the last election? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. In what election district and what Assembly district?
AL The first election district and the Third Assembly.




276


Q. The same district in which Mr. Goldstein was a, poll clerk,
and Mr. Marz was a ballot clerk? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What policeman was in attendance in that district? A.
Adam Raddick.
Q. Was this policeman requested to make any arrests? A.
le was requested by the ballot clerk to make an arrest
Q. For what reason? A. For false voting.
Q. What did the policeman say to the ballot clerk? A. He said
nothing; he paid no attention to him; he ignored him.
Q. Was that the case of one of the men who was repeating?
A. Yes, sir; one of the many repeaters.
Q. Did you make any objections? A. Yes, sir. I protested
friom the time the polls opened, until they closed.
Q. How many times did you make that protest? A. Forty
or 50 times.
Q. Did you recognize any of the men as having voted a second
time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you speak of that fact? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You made a statement of that fact to the officer? A.L I
called the chairman's attention to it.
Q. Where was the policeman? A. He was in the polling place.
Q. What did he say or do? A. He said and did nothing whatever.
Q. What did the chairman say? A. He said he was the board;
-lhat he constituted the board, and whatever he said went; the
Rlepublican inspector was here through courtesy only.
Q. The Republican inspector, he said, was there through
courtesy? A. Yes, sir; by courtesy of the Democratic inspectors.
Q. What did the policeman say about this protest?  A. He
said he meant to be fair-minded; he whispered to me that he
mneant to be fair-minded; but he was directed   to take
his orders from the chairman of the board.
Q. Did he say who directed him? A. No, sir; I understood
though it was from his superior.
Q. But he told you that he was directed to take orders from
the chairman of the board? A And during the time the legal
voters were clamoring for their rights, the captain of the precinct
came down in a coach, and stopped in front of the door, and
got out of the coach, and he stood there laughing and talking
with the Tammany Hall captain, and the voters inside were
clamoring for their rights to vote, and he paid no attention to
them.
Q. What was his name? A. I think it was Captain D)evcry.
Q. You say this was while the repeaters were coming in and
trying to vote? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And while you objected? A. Yes, sir, and also Inspector




277
Williams came down, and the question was put to him, if a
man's name had been voted upon that when the man presented
himself to vote, whether he had a right to vote, and the inspector
said there could be only one vote on a name, and the result was
the chairman governed himself accordingly.
Q. And afterward when the right person came to vote, the
chairman would not allow him to vote? A. No, sir; that was
previous and after, too.
Q. How many men were there who came and found that somebody else had voted on their names? A. Thirty-30, at least,
from the record that I have.
Q. You have a record, have you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And some of these afterward voted upon a mandamus? 2.
Yes, sir; seven of them did.
Q. Only seven out of 30? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the other 23 were not permitted to vote? A. No, sir;
they were not allowed to vote.
Q. How many of these did you know personally? A. I did not
know them personally; I knew them only by sight; I renembered them from registration days.
Q. How many of the 30 did you recognize as being genuine
voters? A. Whose names were voted on?
Q. Yes; how many of the 30 did you recognize as being the
right man? A. Fifteen at least
Q. Was there any particular circumstance that impressed it
upon your recollection, in regard to any one of those voters? A.
Well, for instance, one man came in under the name of Scott,
and presented himself, and apparently it was all right by the
book registration and so he went to get his ballots, and on his
way to get his ballots, another man came in and gave the same
name.
Q. The Arst name and all? A. Yes, sir; the same name and
the same address and the chairman said, "You don't seem to
have learned your lesson very well; get out of here."
Q. Who said that? A. The chairman of the board.
Q. Where was the policeman at that time when he said that?
A. He was right there.                j
Q. How far away from him was he? A. The distance was
much nearer than I am to you.
Q. Only a few feet away; where he could have heard all that
was said? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the policeman attempt to interfere? A. No; he hustled
him out; under the circumstances he had to.
Q. But he did not arrest him? A. No; no aaresat whatever
were made.
Q. What other circumstance particula-ly impressed itself on




1
1
i
i


278


your mind? '. In the case of Barnes, an old genrtieman of 4i
years of age; when he registered he said he was born in Marblehead, Mass.; the old gentleman had long flowing locks, and there
was a lull during the time of registration when he came in that
afternoon, so he conversed with the inspectors, and to show how
active h. was for an old gentleman he got up and danoed and
whistled Yankee Doodle; we could not help but remember it, and
on the day of election a young man of about 22 or 23 years of age
oame in, and offered to vote on his name; I protested, and the
chairman said, "I was there through courtesy; that I had got
along through registration very well, and-that now he hoped that
I did not wish to create any trouble or else I would be suppressed                        I 
Q. Where was the policeman? A. He was there all the tinme.
Q. Did he hear the talk that was going on? A. He must have
heard it, he was near enough to have heard it, but this party, tne
young man, was allowed to vote.
Q. He was allowed to vote, notwithstanding your challenge,
was he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you insist upon his swearing his vote in? A. Yes, sir;
it made no difference whatever; he swore that he was the right
party; and a portion of the time when I would protest, the chairman administered no oath at all; or he simply might have said,
"You are the right party; go on and vote;" at any rate when
this young manQ. How long was it after that before the old man came in?
A'. It might have been two or three hours perhaps, and he thought
it very strange that he should be disfranchised when he was told
that he had voted.! 
Q. Who told him that he had voted? A. The chairman; the
chairman said, "Your name has already been voted upon," and
the old man said, "That is strange; I have not been here," and
the &chairman said he could not help that.
Q. Did the old gentleman still have his flowing locks? A. Yes,
sir; he had.
Q. And he presented the same general appearan'ee when he
came to vote that he did on registration day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There was no possibility of mistking him, was there? A.
No, sir; the chairman said, "Your name has been already voted
on," and he said, "I have not been here at all before," and the
chairman said, "I can't help that; your name is voted on;" and
the old gentleman said, " I have voted for sixty years, and I think
this is strange, that I should now be disfranchised," and he said,
'Well, we can't vote but one name," and the old man said to the
chairman, "Don't you remember me," and the chairman said,
Yes," and the other Democratic inspector also recognized him,




279


and so did I, and even then, the man was not allowed to vote;
after the entire board had said that he was the right partysad
that they recognized him and then he went down to Judge
Andrews and mandamused the board, and came back to vote; he
was one of the seven.
Q. He got a mandamus? A. Yes, sir; I would like to say in
regard to the policeman in the polling place, that there were
changes during some of these occurrences during the day.
Q. How many different policemen were there during the day?
A. Three.
Q. Do you remember the names of the others? A. No, sir.
Q. Who was the Republican watcher there?   A. I forget
what his name is.
Q. Was he permitted to go inside the rail? A. Not at first
Q. Where was the Tammany watcher at that time? A. Tl^
chairman stood at the side of the guard-rail —the position of
the board on which the ballot-boxes were, was right at one end
of the guard-rail, and the chairman of the board stood at the
side of it and outside of the guard-rail stood the Democratic
watcher.
Q. Where was the Republican     watcher standing?  AL
Nowhere at that time; he was thrown out
Q. Who threw him out? A. The crowd, the Tammany Hall
captain of the district, who was in there —he was authority for
everything.                         '..
Q. Where was the policeman when this man was thrown out?
A. He was right there..
Q. Did he interfere to protect him? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember an instance when Mr. Goldstein challengod some votes? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What happened    then?  A. The   Tanmmany  captain
attempted to jump over the rail. 
Q. What was his name? A. I think it was Johnson.
Q. Did you ever see Johnson before that? A. Yes, sir; I
have seen him very often.
0. Do you know his business? A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. You say he made a move to jump over the rail? A. Yes,
sir..
Q. And the policeman did what? A. He interfered in that
case; he did stop him and prevent him, and then his man
threatened him that as scon as he got him outside that he
would "do" him.
Q. Did the policeman remove him from the room —remove
Johnson? A. No, sir; he stood right where he was.
Q. Was Johnson round there all day? A. Yes, sir; he had
been around there all day.




280
Q. Working for his ticket? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he claim to be a watcher or have a certificate? A.
No; he presented none.
Q. Did Goldstein object to his being there? A. When Mr.
Goldstein was objecting to the reporters, Johnson interfered,
and said that Goldstein had too much to say; and Goldstein
said, "It the place of all citizens to object to false voting,"
and Johnson used not only threnl-on-,  hut vnlrnr lanlnnag, nn X
made an attempt to jump over the rail to reach him, and he said
that he would injure him, and he was big enough to hal e done it.
Q. He is a large man, is he? A. Yes, sir; he is a large man,
and stout
Q. What did he say after the policeman prevented him from
lumping over the rail? A. He threatened that he would see
him afterward on the street 
Q. What did Goldstein say to that? A. He quieted down;
I don't know whether he was alarmed or not.
Q. Did he make any reply? A. In the course of the excitement he said he could take good care of himself, or something
of that kind.
Q. Is there anything else? A. Not especially; except the
general fraud, of course.
Q. Describe any case of fraud that you saw there that came
under the observation of the police? A. There were 25 or 30)
names voted on, 20 names that did not vote, and four or five
al-tetnts were r1.I.do loo voon each of those namnls: there were
20 names less than the entire registration, and four or fi7e
attempts were made to vote on those names.
Q. What do you mean by four or five attempts? A. Four or
five parties.
Q. Four or five parties who tried to vote on the same name?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What became of those parties? A. They would come in
and present themselves and the chairman wo-ld probably have
allowed them to vote -
Q. Never mind that, but did you object to them? A. Yes, sir;
and that several did.
Q. Did the policeman interfere with those men; did he try to
arrest them? A. No; there were no arrests made at all.
Q. He took no steps to check those people from coming in and
voting? A. No, sir; not that I could see.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Where did you finst meet Mr. Johnson? A. I met him in
the' Tribe of Red Men,




281


Q.Where? A. In the Improved Order of Ried Alen; a, secret
society; I saw him there; he was a member, and I was a mnember.
Q. Is that an order or society of which you-are a meniber? A.
I have been; it is a secret. beneficial order. 
Q. It is a beneficial society? A.. Yee, Sir.
Q. Was he an officer of that Society or only a member?. A. A:
mnem~ber of it. 
Q. When did you meet hima there? A. I met him in- the lodge
room; I saw, him there.
Q.When? A. i ight or ten years ago.
QAs much as 8orl10years ago? A. Yes~ sir.
Q. Were you on pleasant terms with him? A. No, sir; ue kmre
than any other member of the order.
Q. He was a member of that benevolent order in god< standing,
was he not? A. I suppose so.
Q. Where did you next see him after meeting him iu that order
of Red Men? A. On the street.
Q. Did you talk with him? A. Yes.
QI. Did you me-et him anywhere else? A. well, I met him on'
the street; I didn't talk with him any more than as a casual
acquaintance; as a-member T would casually meet and recognize
him; I had no connection with him.
Q. The fact that you did differ in politics, hpas not estranged
you at all? A. No, sir; I never dickered in politics at all.
Q. I did not say "dickered;" I said differed? A. No,, I didn't
know but the gentlemoam was of the Same party that I was, prc-,
vious to that
Q. I understood you to say that Mr. Johnson on. election day
repres-ented the Democratic ticket? A. I said I didn't kuow but
what he had been of the same party that I was before that.
Q. Whtat party was that?  NThe opposite party; the Republican party.
Q. Was Mr. Johnson once a Republican? A. No, sir.
Q. It bhas been. said that Mr. Johnson was a bunco ste-erer, how
about that? A. I don't know what his business was.V
Q. You are a. member of the same society and you used to see
'him, at the meetingr of the lodge; did you ever hear that he was a
bunco steerer? A. It is my duty to cast the veil of charity over
the occuipation of a brother member.
Q. I ask you whether or not YOU ever heard anyone except this
witness who preceded you by one or two) claim that Johnson was
it professional bunco steerer? A.. I dont know that he was; Ido
not know his business
Q. How often have you been inspeetor of eleetions? W.~ For 12
of15 years..




282! Q. Have you read the law relating to your duties? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You took an oath before you undertook to perform your
duties, did you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. As an intelligent mean, earnest man, have you endeavored to
acquaint yourself relating to the duties of the office of inspector of
elections? A. I have always endeavored to do so.
Q. You knew perfectly well that the suggestion that you were
present or permitted to remain during election day, as a member of the board of inspectors, as a matter of courtesy was a
joke did you not? A. It was rather a serious joke as I looked
upon it; that was one of the statements made, that I was to
be ignored.
Q. You knew, as a matter of fact, the rights which the law
gave you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You knew that nobody could ignore you, did you not? A.
I knew that I was in the minority, and that whatever I said no
attention was to be paid to it.
Q. There were two other inspectors who outvoted you, if it
came to a question of a vote; that was about it, was it not? A.
No, not to a vote, but to a decision, as a statement by the chairman.
Q. If it came to a question of voting, the two outvoted one?
5A. Yes, sir.
Q. And if it came to a question of talking, two could outtk one? A. Yes, sir; and if it came to the interpretation of
the law, two could interpret it according to their own opinion.
Q. What do you understand —there has been a good deal of
talk here about police officers not doing certain things; do you
understand that the inspectors of election are charged by tlhe
statute generally, with preserving order and controlling the
management of affairs at the polls? A. They ought to do so.
Q. You did not understand that inspectors of election, who
are sworn officers, took orders from the policemen, did you? A.
Not supposed to.
9. They gave orders to the policemen? A. They ought to.
Q. Is not that the law? A. It is the law.
Q. And policemen must obey the orders of the election inspectors, must they not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is your understanding? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And if the majority of election officers order a policeman
to do a certain thing, he must do it, should he not? A. te
should.
Q. And the law says he imust? A. The law says he shall.
Q. He can not set up is own opinion of the law against the
swor inspectors, can he? A. Well, he should not.




Z83


Q. How many policemen were there at that day that place?
A. Three, not counting the one 'on the outside.
Q. That made four? A. That I do not say; I know he was'
out there, but when I speak of the policemen I refer to those
inside.
Q. You say there were three- altogether? A. There were
three changes during the day.
Q. What were the hours upon which each one went away?
A. From the time the polling place opened, from 6 o'clock until
4, and then the one on the outside came in after the polls were
closed, and stayed until the ballots were counted.
Q. But one was there all day long? A. Yes, sir; unless he was
relieved; he was relieved.
Q. Do you say he was relieved? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What I was trying to find out from you was, how long he
was there? A. The one whose name I mentioned, by the name
of Adam Raddick, was there the most of the three.
Q. How long was that? A. From 6 o'clock to 4; that is 10
bours.
Q. Was he there all that time? A. No..Q. That is what I am trying to find out? A. He was there
probably seven hours of the 10; the other two officers took up
the other three hours.
Q. Was this transaction, in regard to attempted false voting,
going on during the seven or the three hours? A. Going on
during the 10 hours.
Q. Were they more frequent just before the polls were closed?
A. No; it comrmenced from the opening of the polls until it
closed.
Q. Was there any period of time when they were more frequent than at other times? A. Hardly any lull in the method;
if you would like me to explain the method of how it was done,
I would like to do so.
Q. Have you not already done that pretty intelligently? A.
Well, not fully covered it, I do not think.
Q. I think we all understand it pretty well from your description of it; it is quite lucid; do you mean to say it was going on
all the time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you tell the name of some one voter, which you
required as an inspector of elections, that the police officer should
arrest? A. I made no request; I asked for no arrest; the fraud
was evident; you have just told me that the majority of the
board ordered the policemen to arrest, and the majority does
not.
Q Oh, no; you did not understand that; did you understand




284


that any inspector might give a direction to a police officer? A.
Yes, sir; if the majority of the board go against that inspector,
he is overruled, and the officer makes no arrest.
Q. Did the majority request the officer to arrest? A. No, sir;
never.
Q. Did not? A. Never.
Q. Did you, representing the minority, request the officer to
arrest any voter? A. I certainly did call his attention to the
fraud.
Q. I want to know his name if you did ask him to arrest any
particular person attempting to vote fraudulently? A. Tt was
not necessary to ask him to arrest, when the officer saw the
fraud committed.
Q. That is your own eonelusion? A. No, sir.
Q. What we want to know in proper justice to the officer isA. No, I don't know that I called on any special name.
Q. Whether or not you said to him, "This is an evident
attempt at false voting, make this arrest?" A. No, but when I
had seen the ballot clerk ask the officer to arrest a fraudulent
voter, and he had refused, I thought it was unnecessary for me
to call on him, on the statement of the chairman that I was to be
ignored entirely.
Q. You knew you could not be ignored, did you not? A. I was
ignored.
Q. You were ignored,, but you had a right to stay, you had a
right to challenge? A. Yes, sir; and I did challenge.
Q. You challenged all the time, did youl not? A. Yes, sir;
where they were wrong I did.
Q. You were not ignored then to that extent? A. No, I was
allowed to challenge, but the challenge didn't go.
Q. Because you were not allowed to control? A. There were
two against me.
Q. That is the reason, you were in the minority? A. Yes, sir;
I was in the minority.
Q. And the majority ruled; that is about the size of it, is it
not? A. The majority was wrong in that case.
Q. Well, of course the majority often seems wrong to the
minority? A. It was not a seeming wrong, it was a positive
wrong; I have not lived 17 years in the district without knowing
some of the fraudulent voters.
Q. Where is this garden spot where they start at the rising of
the sun with fraudulent voting? A. I don't understand what
you mean by the "garden spot."
Q. What part of the city is it? A. In the lower part of the city.
Q. Where is it, what streets? A The boundary of Divisioand the Bowery.




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Q Division and Bowery and what else? AT Xnd Chrystle
street
Q. Bounded on the north by what? A. Bayard street.
Q. On the south by what? A. The exact geographical boundary and the latitude, and so on, I don't know.
Q. You-do not know how it is bounded north and south, and
east and west? A. No, sir; I never studied the questior# as to
the position of the district.
Q. You know generally how it is; it is Division street, Bayard and Bowery and what else? A. It can be easily seen by
anyone who attempts to go to it.
Q. Yes; if you get to this place you can see it? A. Yes, sir;
if you know where you are going, you will know when you get
there, if you know the land marks of the city, the Bowery and
Division' streets.
Q. Was your attention ever called to this provision of the
law, relating to elections in the city of New York, as to the
great powers possessed by inspectors of elections and the control which they exercise over the police-see if you have
heard of this; "the inspectors of election in each election district
in the city and county of New York while discharging any of
the duties imposed upon them by this chapter, shall have full
authority to preserve order and enforce obedience to their
lawful commands at and around the place of registration,
revision of registration, or election, during the time of any registration, revision of registration, election or canvass, estimate
or return of votes; to keep the access to such place open and
unobstructed; to prevent and suppress riots, tumults, violence,
disorder, and all other improper practices, tending to the 
indimidation or obstruction of voters, the disturbance or
interruption of the work of registration, revision of registration of voting, or the canvass, estimate, or return of votes, and
to protect the voters, challengers, and persons designated to
watch the canvass, of any ballots, from intimidation or violence,
and the registers, poll books, boxes and ballots from violence
and fraud; and appoint, or deputize, if necessary, one o0 more
electors to communicate their orders and directions, and to
assist in the enforcement thereof?" A. Is that the revised
copy?
Q. That is the copy under-which you operated at the last
election; I ask you now whether or not you are familiar with
that provision of the law? A. In a general way, yes.
Q. Something was said by the learned counsel for the committee in your direct examination as to persons being within
the guard-rail, not properly authorized to be there; do you undur



286


stand that inspectors of election have the right to admit peri
sons within the guard-rail? A. Provided they have the proper
certificates.
Q. No; without certificates? A. If they are proper parties
to be admitted within the guard-rail.
Q. Yes; that inspectors have the right to admit persons within
the guard-rail to preserve order/ for instance? A. Yes, sir; to
preserve order.
Q. Or if there is any apprehension of disorder? A. Well,
what about the policeman who is there.
Q. Here is the law; "no person shall be admitted within the
guard-rail, during such period, except inspectors, poll clerks,
ballot clerks, duly authorized watchers, persons admitted by
the inspectors to preserve order, or enforce the law, persons
duly admitted for the purpose of voting, and persons duly
admitted to assist the disabled voters?" A. Yes, sir.
Q. "And in the city of New York, persons lawfully designated by candidates to be present within the guard-rail, who
are electors, selected by the inspectors, for the purpose of
preserving order?" A. No, sir.
Q. There were no such people there? A. No, sir; Mr. Johnson was standing by thi rail; he attempted to get over, but he
could not get over.
Q. I understand you to say that Mr. Johnson invited Mr. Goldstein to go outside, did he? A. That was the natural sequence
of the row.
Q. Was there that sequence? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did they go outside? A. He knew better for two reasons.
Q. Who knew better, Mr. Johnson? A. No, Mr. Goldstein;
Mr. Goldstein certainly did not go out for two reasons; first, that
probably he might have been unable to cope with Mr. Johnson,
and secondly, he would have neglected his work as an election
officer.
Q. His work as election officer came to an end in the fullness
of time; after he got through, did he go out?
Mr. Sutherland.-I object to that as irrelevant  Of course
the man had to go out afterward. (Objection sustained.)
Mr. Nicoll.-I wanted to know whether there was any combat between him and Mr. Johnson when he went home.
Chairman Lexow. —We are not at all curious upon that point
3Mr. Nicoll. —If the committee do not wish me to go into that,
I shall not undertake to differ with them.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You also understood from the reading of this statute that
the peace was to be preserved at the hand of the inspectors, by




287i
the arm of the policeman? A. It has always been so from year
to year that the policeman should preserve order.
Q. You never knew the inspeotors to go out with a olub and
to preserve order in that way? A. No, sir; he would be entirely
outside of his duty to neglect his ballot-box to go out and fight
or to arrest people.
By Mr. Niooll:
Q. Did you testify on your direct examination that when you
called the attention of the policeman to this attempted false
voting, that the other inspectors ordered him not to arrest any
one? A. No, sir; I did hot say so.
Q. The chairman did not say that? A. No, sir.
Q. What did the inspector say when you spoke of that? A.
He said the man was right and proper, and it was all right for
him to vote, and everything was all right.
Q. Then they did not give the policeman any orders? A. No
sir; they gave him no orders to arrest anyone.
By Chairmn n Lexow:
Q. At one point in your testimony you said that the inspectors
of election conducted the election, and you say at another point
that the Tammany Hall captain was authority for everything;
what do you mean by the statement that the Tammany Hall
captain was authority for everything? A. The Tammany Hall
captain represented the majority of the board; whatever he
said had to be considered as a correct statement, and the
minority inspector could not enforce anything.
Q. You mean both the inspectors of election and the policemen obeyed the Tammany Hall captain? A. The policeman
obeyed the two Tammany Hall inspectors.
Q. And the two Tammany Hall inspectors obeyed the orders
of the Tammany Hall captain? A. Yes, sir; himself being a
Tnmmany Hall captain, and the other inspeotor worked together.
Q. Who do you mean by himself? A. There were only three
inspectors, two Tammany Hall inspeotors, and one was a Tammany Hall captain.
Q. The captain of the district? A. The chairman of the
inspectors
Q. When you said that the Tamrmany Hall captain was authority
for everything, what did you mean? A. I meant that whenever he desired to go into the polling place he did so; that whatever he wanted was done; it seemed that they all worshipped
him; bowed down to him.




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Q. Tey obeyed his directions? A. Yes, sir; directly obeyed
him.
Q. Was this character of voting that you have mentioned
characteristic of the entire day's proceedings? A. Yes, sir.
Q. From the commencement of the opening of the polls until
the closing of the polls? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have stated that there were repeaters; now, do
you mear by that that in addition to men voting upon the names
belonging to others, there were also men who voted more than
once? A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. Then you mean there were fraudulent votes, but not repeating? A. There was attempted repeating, but there was no
repeating, or else there would have been more ballots thaD the
registry called for.
Q. You challenged them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they were ruled out? A. I was overruled.
Q. When you challenged, did you mean to be understood as
saying that the chairman of the board did not require the challenged voter to swear in his ballot? A. He paid no attention to
it; he said that he knew that that was the correct party.
Q. And the policeman heard that? A. He certainly must have
heard it; he was right there.
Q. And he saw that he did not administer the oath to the
voter? A. He attempted to administer an oath; he mumbledd
something when I pressed a challenge very strongly; I know 'Le
never referred to the manual at all, which gives the regular oata
to be administered, but he muttered something to the voter, and
says, "It is all ight, go right in; we are the people; we oouint"
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did you see the Tammany captain bring in any of the outside repeaters? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he go into the booth? A. No; I would not allow it,
unless there was disability; that was a question where I stood
on my rights, and I would not have deafness or some such thing,
or a lame leg, be a question of disability.
Q. In all cases where you tried to prevent the men going into
the booth did the policemian assist you? A. No; the Tammaay
men were pretty intelligent, and they had it all their own way,
and they thought it best to let that alone.
Q. Including the bunco steerer? A. I do not know whether he
is a bunco steerer or not,
Q. This Johnson, what office did he hold; was he a captain
or asistant captain? A. Assistant captain.






289i
Q. Wlntt was the captain's -name? A. Thomas Sullivan, a relam
tive of Mr. Keiuiedy; I bad Lad trouble with him the year pro
V~iM. 
Ralph Nathan, called as a witness, was duly swoirn and testS.
fled as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherlan%.Aa
Q. Where do you'reside? A. Twenty-six Rutgers street
Q. What is your business? A.. Lawyer..Q. Were you nominated for any office at the last election? A.
I was nominated prior to the last election.
Q. For what owlice? A. Judge of the Distriot Court.
Q. Of what judicial districet? A.. The fourth judicial district
of New York county.
Q. On what ticket were you placed?' A. The Republican
ticket
Q. Who was the Democratic nominee? A. George F. Roesch..
Q. Theno you undoubtedly became interested in the proceedmin
on election day? A.- I did.
Q. Did you visit more than one election district? A. I visited
more than my own Assembly district.
Q. You visited nearly all the electio~n districts in the judicial
district? A. I guess about three-fifths of them.
Q. Which polling place did you visit first? A. I guess I went
aronnd to the first election di-strict of the Third Assem~bly district first, and then I went &iirund in their order.
Q.You found the police there, did you, at the different election
districts? A. I did not find them at all the pollingi places.
Q. How many polling places were there at which there were
no police in attendance? A. Probably one-.third of the polling
places. 
Q. And up to what hour in the morning did 'it wnutinue; how
late in the day? A. I started out 6 o'clock in the morning, and
had no, recess until 4 o'clock in the aft~ernoon until the
polls we-re closed, and during the entire time -the officers were
absent from their places; that is at about one-third of th-em.
Q. The absence of an officer from an election district, so far A4s
your experience go0es, continues during the entire day? A. Yes,
Q. But in about two-thirds of the places you fo'rrnd policemen
present, did you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you observe anything in regard to the conduct of those
policemen? A. At the sixth election district, at about haif-past
0 In the morning, the Republican watcher was not allowed
37~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




290


within the guard-rail, and I told the officer that the pamphlet
which the police commissioners issued and which the inspectors
had there permitted the watcher within the guard-rail.
Q. You mean the statute which governs this matter? A. Yes,
mir; and the police officer said he did not care about the pamphlet,
but that he received his instructions not to allow anyone
beyond the election officers within the guard-rail.
Q. Did he say from whom he had received those instructions?
A' No, he did not.
Q. Did you prevail upon him to allow the watcher to osme
within the rail? A. I spoke to him for some time, and it was ot
no avail.
Q. You failed to succeed? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you observe anything else at that election district?
I 1 was there about 1 o'clock when the Republican captain
of the eleventh election district of the Third Assembly district
had followed-well, I don't know what to call him-but he was
a man who was allowed to vote more than once, and the captain
followed him to the sixth election district, and he said there that
this man had voted four times, had voted at four different polling
places, and he demanded his arrest, and a number of the 'lammany heelers put him out, and the officer was there, but he did
not interfere with him.
Q. How near to the officer did the Republican captain bland
when he made this statement? A. He must have been within
about three feet of him.
Q. Within three feet of the policeman? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How near was the Republican captain to the inspectors
of election of that district? A. I guess he was about nine
feet from them.
Q. And then, within the hearing of the election inspectors
and the policemen, he declared that he had himself followed this
man, and observed he had voted at four election districts? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And he desired his arrest? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you say then that he was hustled out? A.. Yes, sir;
I guess that is a term that you can apply.
Q. Describe how it was done? A. The Tammany henchmen
around the Third Assembly district have a peculiar method of
putting a man out; you can not make a particular charge of
assault against them, hardly, but they push them  out, and
hustle them out; they have probably 10 heelers at every elec
tion district, and the polling place is generally narrow and
umall, and they can fill up a place and push you out.
Q. Were those men all inside the polling places? A. Yes, sir




291


~.Itow far from the policeman did you stand, when this toeU
plac'~? A.I was right in the doorway oa thea poilling place.
Q.flow far from that was the policeman? A. Three or foot
feet.
Q.Were yDu liustled out, too? A. No; I was not hustled
out, because I was -not on the hinde; I stood in -the doorway,
but when he was put out, I made room for hint to go out.
Q.Did anybody arrest this repeater? A. No; no arrest was
made that I know of.
Q. Did the man vote at that election dist~rict? A. He did.
Q.Notwithstaxiding the protest that was made by thi.-. Iepub.
iancaptain? A. I suppose it was the oath mumbled over,
but it did not soand anything like it.
Q. You did not hear anything that sounded like an oth? A. No,
sir; I did not.
Q. Did anything else occur at that sixth election district? A.
No. sir; nothing that I know of now.
Q.Do you remember a young man by the name of Fred
Platt? A. Fred Plate?
Q.What happened in regard to his vote? A. About 20 min-'
utes to 4 o'clock in the afternoon he told me that they refused
to allow him to vote in the twentieth election district of the
Third Assembly district, because somebody else had voted under
his -name; it was then too late for me to go to the Superior:Court
for a mand-amus-z, but I went to the polling pla-ce with him
and I told him to demand a set 4if ballots, and the Tammany
inspector did not say anything;, he then demanded them once
more, and nothing was said, and then I told the inspector that
he had a right to vote, and he ought bo order -the ballot clerk
to give him the ballots, and the Tammany inspector said, "His
name is checked off as having voted, and we can not have bunt
vote gin; "I said, "1You ought to rmember a man's name, and
the man who registered under the name of Fred Plate especially,
when he is identified by the name of Fred Plate," and then the
police officer said: "We can't expect the inspector to remember
a man's face that has only appeared once," and I told him "1Nc.,
I could not expect them to do that when they did not remember
a mnan's face that had appeared theme hl~f a dozen times within
a couple of h-ours."1
Q. What reply did he make to thiat? A. They passed it off
as a joke; finally I picked up the pamphlet which was issued
by the commissioners, and I showed the inspectors that he would
not be doing his duty if he. refused to allow this man to swear
in his vote; finally, when I was gettig the best of the argu'
mont, and at about 10 minutes to 4 o'clock they declared th~o
polls closed; I took out my watch and said to the officers that




292


it was not yet 4 o'clock, and he said: "The inspectors had all to
say; I had nothing to say."
Q. That was the twentieth election district?  A. Yes, sir;
No. 140 Forsythe street
Q. Did anything else occur in that election district that you
want to refer to? A. Not that I remember of now.
Q. Did you visit the twelfth election district? A. Yes, sir,
about 11 o'clock in the morning, and I saw the chairman of the
board of inspectors give to a voter what he called a dummy, but
at the distance that I was standing from there, about six feet, it
seemed to me to be an original ballot
Q. What was its color? A. White; it was folded up to show
the voter how he was to vote and given to him to take into the
voting booth; I asked for the policeman; I did not see anyone
around, and some one told me that a gentleman sitting there
represented the central office, and I addressed him, and he said,
"They have only been giving blue dummies up to that time."
and they were perfectly honest and there was no need of doing
anything.
Q. Did you call his attention to the fact that the law expressly
provided that sample ballots should be of no other color that
white? A. I did.
Q. What did he say to that? A. He said that they were acting fairly and squarely, and he had nothing to say against it
Q. Did you visit the seventh election district? A. Yes, sir;
I visited the seventh district both before and after the closing
of the polls.
Q. Tell us what occurred there? A. I was there at about
half-past 7 in the morning, and there were so many registered that the inspector did not ask them their names, but
simply handed each and every one a set of ballots and there was
no officer around there to appear against the violations of law.
Q. No policeman there at all? A. No, sir.
Q. What time was that? A. About half-past 7 or quarter to
8 in the morning.
Q. And the voters were in line? A. Yes; about 30 of them
were in line.
Q. And they were handed out tickets without their being
asked their names? A. Yes, sir; there was about 503 registered
in that election district.
Q. How large a district is that in area? A. It includes four
blocks; I suppose there are about 100 residences in the district
all the year around.
Q. How many of those votes did they get in? A. There werre
490 names -m the poll-list, and there werc 562 ballots in the




293


ballot-box; that was nothing extraordinary in the Third Assembly district; that was in the seventh election district of the
Third Assembly.
Q. Was there a policeman there when the polls closed? A.
I was not there when they closed, but I was there shortly after,
and there was an officer there then.
Q. Whether the officer was there at the time that the
announcement was made that 562 ballots were in the ballot-box
you do not know? A. That I do not know; I know when I
got there, that they were wrangling as to how they were to
draw the ballots out of the box, and the Republican inspector said that he would do it, and the chairman said that they
would leave it to a vote of the inspectors and of course the
chairman was elected, and the chairman drew them out and
when he drew out the ballots, none of them had pasters on, and
if I remember right, four socialists were drawn out and eight
Tammany votes were drawn and 60 Republican votes-were
drawn out.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Was an officer present when this was done? A. Yes, sir;
the police officer was there.
Q. Did he see the method in which these ballots were being
abstracted from the ballot-box? A. He did.
Q. Was any particular method applied by the chairman of
the board of inspectors? A. The chairman of the board simply
put his hand in, and it seemed that every ballot that he drew
out. did not have a paster on it, but that they were clean ballots, with the exception of probably two or three.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. What was the name of the Tammany captain in that election district? A. That I do not know.
Q. Did you see anything else in the seventh election district
that you wish to mention? A. No.
Q. Can you tell us the name or the number of either of the
policemen in either of those election districts? A. I can not
Q. Can you tell the name of the T:ammany Hall captain in
either of those election districts? A. I believe in the seventh
district, the name of the Tammany Hall captain was Eberhardt
Q. What was the name of the Republican captain? A It
was O'Brien, I believe.
Q. Was he assisted by any other Republican workers? A.
No; I do not think so; probably one.




294
'Q. What is Eberhardt's business? A. That I do not know.
Q. You do not know what he is doing now? A. I do not;
no, sir; and I do not care to know.
Q. Did you have any lithographs displayed in the windows
of your district? A. I had some last year, the year before
last, when I was a candidate for the Assembly, I had some then.
Q. Did anything happen to those lithographs of yours? A.
There was a saloon at the corner, in the house that I was living
in, and one Friday evening, about half-past 8, I passed by
there, and I saw my lithographs in the window and on the wall
inside, and I saw an officer speaking to the proprietor of the
saloon and I came back within about 15 minutes, and the officer
was gone, and so were my lithographs; I spoke to the proprietor
about it, and he said that he did not care to be interfered with
by the police.
Q. That was the reason that he gave for taking them down?
A. That was the reason; yes, sir.
Q. Getting back to the election last fall, was there anything
else that you now recall, in respect to the police? A. Not that
I recollect at present.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Upon what ticket were you running for the Assembly in
1892? A. I was running on the Republican ticket.
Q. Was that the first occasion when you aspired to public
office? A. I do not know that I aspired for public office, I was
a candidate.
Q. That is when your aspirations ripened into a nomination?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Frior to that had you been connected with politics to any
great extent? A. I guess I was a Republican ever since I was
a little tot
Q. Born a Republican? A. No, I was not born a Republican;
I was a Republican after my eyes were opened.
Q. What you mean to say is that you have been a life-long
Republican? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you been enrolled recently? A. No, sir.
Q. Not enrolled? A. No, sir; I was enrolled before the last
election.
Q. But you have not been enrolled within the last two or three
weeks?                                                  i
(Objected to, having been already answered, and as immaterial.)
Chairman Lexow.-I would not try to get matters of that kind
tn before the committee, when the committee has already
passed upon that question.




295


The Witness.-I do not belong to any faction. 
Chairman Lexow.-Do not answer the question,
Q. I understood you to say that more than one-third, or at
least one-third of the polling places in your judicial district
were not manned by the police at all on election day? A. I did
not say that                    v 
Q. Is that an over statement of your testimony? A. I say,
that I did not say what you have just stated that I did say; I
said about one-third of the polling places that I visited in my
district were not manned by the police officers when I was there.
Q. You mean in what might have been your judicial district?
A. No, what was the judicial district in which 1 was candidate
for election.
Q. Had you a coach that day? A. I had.
Q. Were you driving around from place to place? A. Yes, sir;
I was being driven around from place to place.
Q. Excuse me; tell us the first polling place that you went
to where you did not find a police officer? A. There was not a
police officer at one among the first three election -districts in
the Third Assembly district.
Q. What was the first election district that you arrived at in
your progress that morning? A. We started with the first election district of the Third Assembly district.
Q. What time did you reach there? A. We got there about
a quarter past 6, or 20 minutes past.
Q. When you say "we" do you mean the coachman and yourself? A. Well, I mean the leader of the district and myself.
Q. You had with you then, some political friend, did you? A.
I did.
Q. Who was he? A. Charles H. Murray part of the time; for
about one hour and a half; it was not safe to go alone.
Q. Which hour and a half was that which you had the pleasure
of his company? A. From 6 o'clock until half-past 7.
Q. I understood you to say that you arrived at the first ele.c
tion district of the Third Assembly district at about half-past
6 o'clock in the morning? A. About quarter past 6.
Q. How long did you remain there? A. About five mih:tes.
Q. And all that you mean- to say is that during the ive minutes
that you remained there you saw no police officers? A. That is
just what I mean to swear to.
Q. From there you moved on to what election district? A.
The second election district
Q. How long did you remain there? A. About the same length
of time.
Q. Was there a police officer there?, A. I said in the first




296
three election districts that there was one polling place where
the police-officer was not present when I rwas there, but which
one of those three election districts it was I do not recollect.
Q. You can not say which one it was? A. No; I do not recollect which one.
Q. How long were you at the second district; were you there
more than five minutes? A. No, I think not; about the same
time.
Q. Then you passed on to the next election district, did you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then, all that it amounts to is, that during the very brief
period at which you and Mr. Murray, on your voyage of inspection through the district, happened at one polling place that
you did not see an officer; that is about it, is it not? A. No,
sir; I visited each polling place in the Third Assembly district,
probably three times during the day.
Q. Well, I am speaking of your first trip?  A. Yes, sir; that
is what it amounts to.
Q. Then that is all that the first trip amounted to? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. From the third election district, did you go to the fourth
election district? A. I did.
Q. Did you proceed through the districts in numerical order?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Going from the fourth election district, until you reached
the last election district in that Assembly district?  A. I
stopped off, I think, at the twenty-sixth election district of the
Third Assembly district; that was the end of my judicial
district
Q. So you went altogether through 26 election districts?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Leaving out the first three, you perceive that we have 23
election districts left?  A. Yes, sir; I see that.
Mr. Sutherland.-That is simple; he can do that without pencil
and paper.
The Witness.-That is more than some of the police officers
were able to do on election day.
Q. Taking the fourth district, at what time did you arrive at
the fourth election district?  A. I was at the fourth election
district before they opened.
Q. Before they opened at all? A. I was there before they
opened; on my way to the Republican headquarters of the district, I passed there.
Q. Were you at the fourth election district before yon were
at the first district? A. Yes, sir; before the polling place




297


opened I was there, and afterward I had a ride at the first, and
then I got around to the fourth election district again.
Q.,Then, I am speaking of your second trip; what time did
you get there then? A. I guess it was about a quarter to 7
o'clock.
Q. Was there any police officer there then? A. No, sir; by
the way, in that election district officers were generally away
when there was any trouble, which occurred very frequently during the day; in the fourth election district the officer was never
in sight when trouble occurred, which was yery frequent, and
Inspector Williams came down there twice during the day, in
consequence of trouble.
Q. When Inspector Williams arrived, what did he do? A. I
was not there when he was in the polling place.
Q. Were you there when he was about the polling place? A.
He was just about getting into his coach to drive off when I got
there.
Q In the fifth election district-was there an officer there
when you arrived? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How about the sixth election district? A. An officer was
there but he was not there half the time.
Q. Was he there or Was he not when you got there? A. He
was there when I came the first time.
Q. And you left him there? A. Yes, sir; when I went away
he was there.
Q. And he was there when you came and was there when you
went away? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is the seventh election district? A. Yes, sir; there
was an officer there when I was there the first time.
Q. What time was it when you were there the first time? A.
About half-past 7.
Q. How about the eighth election district-perhaps I am
overtaxing your memory as to these different election districts?
A. No; it don't seem so, does it?
Q. Well, I don't-l now; I think you are holding your own very
well, but I was going to suggest that you might want to say
that you did not recollect the particular districts; if you do,
we can keep this up, but if you do not, we can cut it short which
would satisfy me? A. It seems to me that your sarcasm will
not amount to anything.
Q. Do you think it is sarcasm on my part? A. Well, yes. 
Chairman Lexow.-I think your question might be considered
so, but your question is relevant if you want to continue it
Q. Take up the ninth district then; what time did you arrive
there? A. It might have been a quarter to 8 o'clock or 8 o'clock.
L.       38




298


Q. Was there an officer there? A. No, sir; not the first time
that we were there.
Q. How long did you remain there; the usual period? A. Yes,
gir; probably a few minutes longer; I did not take out my watch
every time I stopped.
Q. Passing over the ninth to the twenty-third election districts, inclusive state the time when you arrived at each one
of these election districts on your first tour through the district,
and give the names of numbers of the districts where the officers
were and were not present? A. As to the first portion of your
questions as I said before, I did not have my watch open when
I got to the different polling places, but as far as I recollect,
there were from the ninth to the twenty-third election districts
about four polling places that were without police officers when
I was there.
Q. I understood you to say that before -what I want you to
do now is to tell me the places and the times when you arrived
there. A. If I had known that I would have been called here
as a witness I would have taken a pencil and paper and made
notes of it at the time.
Q. Is it not a fact that you do not recollect? A. I remember
about proportionately how many places were not manned by
police officers, but I do not remember every place that was
manned by police officers unless it was the first eight or nine
election districts.
Q. That is what I first proposed to have you say; that is the
fact; you are unable to state positively on your oath, what particular districts, from the ninth to the twenty-third were not
manned by police officers on your first tour? A. Yes, sir; I
am not able to so state.
Q. Who was running against you? A. I believe I answered
that question; I was running against ex-Senator George F.
Roesch.
Q. Who else? A. That was the only one of my acquaintance;
I do not remember the names of the other candidates.
Q. Was the fight between you and Mr. Roesch in the district?
A. Yes,- sir; Mr. Fennell was not a candidate.
Q; Had the opposition to Mr. Roesch consolidated upon you?
A. That I do not know; what they did on election that day.
Chairman Lexow.-How is that material?
Mr. Nicoll.-I simply wanted to find out, for I bad forgotten
it myself.
The Witness. —I have not come here to refresh your knowledge of. history.




299


q. There is no secret about it, is there? A. There is no
secret about it, but if you will come over to my office when I
have time, I might be able to tell you all about it
Ghairman Lexow.-I don't think you should take up the time
of the committee with unnecessary excursions.
Q. What other candidates besides you and Mr. Roesch were
in the district? A. Do you mean candidates for judicial
offices?
Q. Yes? A. There may have been two others, the Socialist
and the Prohibitionist, but I do not know who they were.
Q. I understood you to speak of one who was called or known
by the name of Platt- A. Not Platt, but Playth.
Q. Did you not hear Mr. Sutherland call him Platt? A. Yes,
sir; and I corrected him, and said Fred A. Playth.
Q. Is the name properly pronounced Playth? A Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know Mr. Playth before that time? A. A friend
of mine told me that he was Mr. Playth.
Q. But you did not know whether he was or not, did you? AL
I believe the word of my friend, whom I knew and whose word
I took to be as good as gospel.
Q. But you have no previous knowledge or personal acquaintance with him? A. No, sir.
Q. You relied as you have a right to rely upon your friend's
statement regarding him? A. Yes, sir; upon that and upon the
second ground that no man who desired to be a repeater or
who desired to vote upon another man's name would take the
trouble to run around to get people to allow him to vote on
his name.
Q. The claim against admitting Mr. Playth to vote was that
he was a repeater? A. No, sir; not that he was a repeater but
that somebody had voted already on his name.
Q. That was what the chairman of the inspectors told me;
that someone had voted on his name.
Q. And, therefore, he was not entitled to vote? A. Yes, sir;
and it seems to me that if the chairman of the board of inspectors
knew that somebody had voted on his name, he must have
known that the party who so voted was voting illegally and he
should have allowed Mr. Fred Playth to have voted.
Q. Why did you not apply for a mandamus? A. As I said
before it was 20 minutes to 4 o'clock and it was too late for me
to go down town to get a mandamus
Q. What time did you run across Mr. Playth? A. I met him
at 20 minutes to 4 o'clock.
Q. And you had never seen him before that time? A. No,
sir; I had never known him before




300
Q. Did you undertake to decide the question of his right to
vote right on a minute's notice, on a question of that kind and
to insist upon it? A. What is that you ask?
Q. Did you undertake to decide and conelude judicially upon
his right to vote?
(Objected to; objection sustained.)
Q. Is the word "judicial" offensive? A. Noting that you
have asked meChairman Lexow.-The objection has been sustained; do not
answer the question.
Q. Did you undertake to decide at once upon Mr. Playth's right
to vote? A. I did not undertake to decide at all; I was not in
the position to decide; it was for tihe board of inspectors to
decide.
Q. I understood you to say that you asserted his right to vote
and were indeed getting the best of the argument-  A. That is
what I did say.
Q. Well, did you get the best of the argument? A. Well, they
closed the polls on me at 10 minutes before 4 otclock.
Q. Do you suppose that that was because you got the best of
the argument? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was Mr. Playth going to vote for you? A. I really could
not tell you; I did not ask him.
Q. Who was he introduced to you by, by a friend of yours?
A. YeP sir; by a friend of mine.
Q. You understood, did you not, that he was a voter for you?
A. I did not understand anything of the kind; I went about the
district to see that there would be something tending toward
tlirness in casting and counting the ballots of the election.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You say that you went around from one election district to
another, in that Assembly district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you traveled around did you see any police officer
under the influence of liquor or conducting himself in a disorderly manner during the whole day? A. Not that I recollect
Frank Nichols, called as a witness on behalf of the committee,
being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Twenty-two Spring street.
Q. What is your business? A. Musician.
Q. Did you vote at the last election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where? A. At Mott street.
Q. What number in Mott street? A. Two hundred and four.




301'


Q. In what election district is that? A. The twenty-ninth
election district
Q. What Assembly district? A. The Third Assembly district.
Q. Did you meet with any violence there? A. Oh, yes, sir.
Q. What was it? A. I met a good many people there that
did not belong to the district; for the last two years or about this
year we have, if I remember right, about 290, and this year we had
374 votes, and when we counted the ballots there were over 374
votes; we had 290 registered.
Q. Did anybody attack you? A. No, not at that time; I am
on the corner of Prince and Mulberry street.
Q. How far was that from the voting place? A. About 10
feet.
Q. Was that before or after you voted? A. Before I had voted.
Q. Who was it that met you there? A. A friend of mine.
Q. Were you assaulted by anybody? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where? A. At the twenty-fifth election district; No. 50
Prince street.
Q. How far was that from the voting place of your district?
A. About two blocks.
Q. Was there a policeman there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was it that assaulted you? A. It was two men; I
never saw them before in my life.
Q. What was done? A. What was done; I had two or three
friends of mine and they wanted to vote, and I took them there,
and they said, "You people can't vote," and these people had just
got home from their work about 1 o'clock, and it was about halfpast 1 when they got through the polling place; I said, "Why
can't they vote?" and they said, "No% they could not vote," and
I said, "What was the matter of theme people that they could
not vote," and they said, "You go home; go home; you people
can't vote any more," and then I was put out in the middle of
the street, and the captain of the election district said. "Take
this fellow away from here," and a fellow hit me in my eye with a
brass knuckle.
Q. Did the police do anything at all? A. No, sir; he would
not arrest a cat that day as long as it belonged to Tammany
H1ll; he would not arrest a cat.
Q. What did he hit you with? A. With brass knuckles.
Q. Did you see them? A. Yes, sir; he came after me with
two hands right in his pockets.        ' I
Q. Did you ever see him before? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen him since? A. No, sir; but it was in
the Third Assembly district-you never saw anything like this.year; the people must have come from Sing Sing.




802


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Q. Do you know the police? A. I could not tell their names;
I know them, and they saw him strike me and they walked right
away.
By (Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did the policemen join in the conversation at all? A. They
were talking; there was about half a dozen there, and they were
all talking.
Q. They were all talking there together? A. Yes, sir; and
one of the men tried to get me away from the polling room, and
he came and said, "Will you come and have a drink?" and i
iaid, "No, I did not drink."
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Those two men that you took to vote were friends of yours?
A. Yes, sir; they lived at 51 Spring street
Q. Did you give them any money to vote? A. No, sir; I never
pay my men money to vote.
Q. You did not have the handling of money? A. No; I did
not have five cents in my pocket, so how could I pay the man
to vote.
Cross-examination waived.
Jacob Subin, called as a witness in beholf of the committee,
being duly sworn, testified as follows;
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q Where do you reside? A. Twenty-one Forsythe street
Q. What is your business? A, Manufacturer of chicory.
'q. Where did you vote at the last election? A. In the third
election district of the Third Assembly district
Q. What official relation did you have, if any, to that district?
A. I was a watcher there.
Q. In your capacity as a watcher, did you observe what took
place all the day during the election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell us what you saw in regard to the police? A. On the
morning of the last election I went to the polling place, and the
first thing I did I went in to cast my vote, and when I got into
the b(oth one of the Tammany heelers got inside with me, and
I said, "What do you want here?" and he said, "I know you
are a good Republican, but I am only interested in Timothy D.
Sullivan and I want you to vote one of his pasters on your ballot; " and he handed me a paster, and I said, "Not for your life;
you get out of here or I will have you locked up," and he said,




rYou can't do it; you can't have me locked up," and I hried fo
force him out, but he was too big, and I finally got out myself,
and ordered the officer to lock him up, but he did not, and I
finally put him out and I voted the ticket according to my wishes,
but I protested to the chairman of the board of inspectors, and
he only laughed at me.
Q. Where was the policeman? A. Only a few feet from there;
Le heard the whole argument, and then I went outside of the
rail and watched the proceedings for the day, and I have seen
the Tammany Hall heelers bring in five or six men, drill them
into line and from the appearance of some of them, they looked
like Irishmen, and some like recent importations from Chatham
square or any of those dives, and most of those voted on Hebrew
names, but the fun of it was that they could not pronounce the
name under any circumstances that they were voting, and of course
as a rule, the chairman of the board of inspectors used to correct them, and in some instances they forgot their names entirely,
and in such cases they went out of the line, and then the heelers
would approach them and bestow such vile language upon them
and curse them and swear at them for being so stupid as not
to recollect the name of the person they were voting under, and
then they would drill them into line again, and I protested
against them; I attempted to challenge them, and I was told
unless I stopped monkeying with the regular way of doing business that I would be thrown through the window.
Q. Where was the policeman when this conversation took
place? A. Always inside; but I did not feel like going through
s*ch an operation, as a little while before, Mr. Rosalsky was
hurt there by some of the heelers, and I thought I would keep
quiet and see the proceedings.
Q. When was that that Mr. Rosalsky was hurt? A. On the
same election day, and I also noticed the captain of the Socialistic Labor party there, and a young fellow, about 26 or 27 years
of age, who attempted to vote on his name, and he grabbed hold
of him and asked to have him locked up, but the officer paid no
attention to it, and finally three of the heelers got hold of him
and they punched his face for him.
Q. Punched the face of what man? A. Of the captain of the
Socialistic Labor party, and they slipped the repeater out; and,
of course, he called upon the officer to give him protection, and
the officer stretched himself out a little and he said, "Well, I
guess I am pretty busy just now; I will see you after 4 o'clock;
I will have more time to spend;" and, finally, but for the Tammany captain, if he had not interferred, they would have
handled him very roughly; but they made the proportion to




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304


the captain of the Socialistic Labor party to go right away, and
in that case they would let him off, and so he did go off very
quickly.
Q. Did you see anybody else go into the booth besides the
man who followed you in? A. I think about 9 out of every
10, a heeler went inside with hidm; pretty nearly that; I recollect
a young fellow by the name of Cohen; a stupid fellow; he could
not read or write, and he approached me and asked me for a
Republican ticket, and I told him to go outside and get one;
and he went outside, and then he brought one in and brought
it to me to see if it was the right paster, and I told him it wtis
the right one, and he went and got inside of the booth, and a
heeler went in with him and snatched the ticket away from
him and put one of his own pasters on it and folded his ballot
up and dragged him right out, close to the chairman of the
inspectors, and made him deposit this special ballot, and then,
when he got outside of the polling place, he said to me, "Subin,
am I supposed to have voted as that man ordered me't" and
I said, "You are stupid enough to chew hay; you ought to be
killed."
Q. Where was the policeman when this Tammany captain was
dragging him out before the polls? A. He was inside of the
guard-rail.
Q. Where he could see it all? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he make any attempt to interfere with this Tammany
man? A. No, sir; not that I know of.
Q. And you did not hear him say anything against it at all?
A. No, sir; but he heard everything and saw everything, but lie
said very little.
Q. He said nothing against it? A. No, sir; nothing against it.
Q. What was the name of the Tammany worker who took this
paster away from the voter? A. I think his name was Murphy;
I have seen him there for several years in the same election
district.
Q. Do you know a Tammany worker there by the name of Loey?
A. Is that his second name'?
Q. Yes. A. I know most of them personally, but I never had
any dealings with him.
Q. Did you see a paster taken off from a ballot? -A. At the
counting of them, do you mean?
Q. Yes? A. I think when they started to count the ballots
I was kind of sick and I left
Q. Tell us how many there were that voted on these Hebrew
names, that were apparently Irish? A. A good many.
Q. Give us as close an estimate as yo. can of the number?
A. WVell, 25 or so.




305


Q. But you say from their facial appearance, they were oei
tainly of Irish descent? A. Yes, sir; that is one thing from
which I formed my opinion, and there is another ground on which
I form my opinion that they were not Hebrews, because they
could not pronounce their names, not to save their souls.
Q. And in many instances they were corrected? A. They
were always corrected; the chairman of the inspectors would
correct them if they were not properly drilled into it.
Q. Is there anything else with regard to the conduct of the
police that you recollect? A. There were a good many more
instances but about the same thing.
Q. I understood you to say that you did not remain a great
while during the counting of the ballots? A. No; I was kind of
dizzy and I went home.
Q. Were you there when the ballots were removed from the
ballot-box? A. No, I was not there; I was only there until the
polls were closed.
Oross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. I understood you to say that some man went into the bootlh
with you, but that you violently ejected him? A. No, not violently.
Q. You mildly put him out? A. Mildly; very mildly, for he
was too big for me.
Q. He was too big to be violently dealt with? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You used moral suasion on him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you make a complaint to the officer in regard to that?
A I made a complaint to the chairman of the board of inspectors,
and he laughed at me and said, "You are a fool; the mam is
doing no harm."
Q. As a matter of fact, the man did not do you any harm,
did he? A. No, sir.
Q. You voted as you pleased, and you told him to get out? A.
Exactly. 
Q. Did you make a direct request to the officer to arrest him for
violating the law? A. I did not.
Q. Were you right in saying that 9 out of every 10 voters
in that election district were accompanied by outsiders into the
booths? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Nine out of every 10? A. Yes, 9 out of every 10; pretty
nearly.
Q. How many voters cast their ballots there that day? A. I
do not recollect; Mr. Eosalsky can tell you.
Q. Don't you know in a general way without going into the
figures? A. I do not know.
LI       39




Q, Was it upwards of a couple of hundreds? A. Yes, sir; I
think it was a couple of hundred voters.              |
Q. Do you mean to say that out of a couple of hundred there
were only 20 men who went into the booths by themselves? A.
I think if I took special pains to notice it, I don't think there
were five that got in there without having a heeler inside with
him; if I had taken special pains to notice it.
Q. I do not know what you might have seen if you had taken
special pains, but taking the pains that you did take? A. That
is to take a note of every voter, I do not think there would be
that many.
Q. You understand, do yor not, that you are testifying before
this committee of the Senate on your oath? A. Yes, sir; I undezstand it.
Q. I want to ask you whether or not you are swearing that
only 20 men out of all the men who voted upon that day went
into the polling places unaccompanied by an outsider? A. I
said to my knowledge, what I have seen, surely, 9 out of every
10, a heeler went inside with them; they knew me for a Republican worker for four or five years, and still a heeler went in
with me to see that I put a Timothy D. Sullivan paster on my
ballot, at least, if I didn't vote the whole Democratic ticket;
they wanted me to put a Sullivan paster on it at least, and that
shows plainly that they went in with everybody.
Q. Are you swearing from your argument and inference, or
from what you saw? A. From what I saw; at least, 9 out.of every 10 a heeler went inside with him.
Q. And if there were 200 people voted there, there were only
-20 people who went into the booth unaccompanied? A. Hardly
any more.
Q. I understood you to say that some of the persons coming
up to vote had difficulty in pronouncing their names? A. Yes;
they had great difficulty.
Q. Take a name for instance; what name did anyone have
difficulty in pronouncing? A. I did not take any notice of the
name particularly, but I recollect one name, a personal friend
of mine by the name of Bergman whom I saw early in the
morning and I told him; "Bergman, this is election day, and you
come in and cast your vote early or you will be deprived of it;"
and he said that he was busy and he would have plenty of time
later, and I said, "I see that you will not vote to-day; I see how
things are going;;" and during the day a young fellow came in
and gave his name to the inspector as from Chrystie street
and he said -his name was "Putnam," or some such name, and
the chairman said: "yes, Bergman, that is all right, Bergman."
Q. He said, "Putnam" A. Yes, sir; "Putnam" or some



307


thing like that, and the hairman said, u and he took his name
and this very Bergman came in about half-past 2 o'clock, and
they told him, "you have voted once, get out of here;" I said,
"he had not voted," and they said, "we are not asking you,"
and I told Mr. Bergman, "it serves you right, for if you had
come early you could have voted and you could go to court and
swear your vote in;" but they would not allow him to swear
it in there.
QO What other name was there that was voted on? A. He
was deprived of his vote.
Q Yes, but what other name was there? A. I don't remember any other name just now.
Q. You do not know any other name? -A. I know a good
many but I really forgot all about it; I paid no attention to it
Q. Out of the 30 other men whom you say were Irishmen,
but who attempted to vote on a Jewish name, can not you recollect one other? A. I can not very well recollect any, because
I did not think of it at the time; I did not care for it; as soon
as the election was over, I attended to my own business; I
generally work a few weeks before election, until the day of
election and then I drop the matter, and attend to my own private affairs and let the others fight it out.
Q. You are generally doing what before election? A. Before
election, I work a little for the party and after the election I
attend to my own private affairs
Q. Do you give up your private business for the purpose of
devoting yourself to the public interest? A. No, sir; I never
did; just a few days for a pastime, an hour or two that I spend
Q. You work for a pastime? A. Yes, sir.
Q. For a couple of weeks before election you do that? AL
Yes, sir.
Q. And then you give up politics? A. Yes, sir; after election
I give it up.'
Q. You keep your membership in the club, do you not? A. I
am a good-standing member and pay my dues always
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did you drink anything on election day? A. No, sir; I
am not a drinking man-I am not temperance, -but I do not
drink.
Q. You said the reason that you went away after the polls
closed was because you were busy? A. I was not busy, but I
felt kind of sick.




308


By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You drink chicory? Ai Yes; a little with my eoffee.By 
By Chairman Lexow:
Q You felt sick, as you had been there all day long? A. Yea,
sir.
Warren Hait, called as a witness on behalf of the committeei
being duly sworn, testified as follows:
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Twenty-six Charles street
Q. What is your business? A. Clerk in the Columbia steam-ship line, foot of Canal street
Q. Were you a Republican watcher in the election of 1893?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At what election district? A. The twenty-fifth election
-district of the Second Assembly district.
Q. Where was the polling place? A. Fifty-five New Bowery,
I think.
Q. What time did you arrive at the polling place that day?
A. About 8 o'clock in the morning.
Q. Did you apply for a position inside of the guard-rail? A.
Yes, sir; I showed the chairman of the board my certificate, and
he told me to get out
Q. You displayed your certificate to the chairman, and he
said what? A. He said to get outside of the railing-that is,
he meant to get outside of the railing.
Q. Did you get outside? A. No; I did not then; I showed
it to the police officer, and he said, "I don't want to have any
trouble with you, but you get outside," and I didn't care to have
any trouble with him, so I got out.
Q. Were you allowed within the guard-rail at all during the
day? A. Yes, sir; after the vote commenced to be counted.
Q. Did you observe any irregularity in the election of any
sort? A. Yes, sir; anybody came in and voted who wanted toall the Tammany workers came in and voted anybody they
wanted to.
Q. You saw them come in; how near to the booths were they?
A. Sometimes they would go right in the booths
Q. Where was the policeman at that time? A. He was right
there.
Q. How far from the booth? A. Right alongside the rail;
right near the booth.




809
Q Where he could hear and see everything that was said
and done? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you make protest against that sort of operation?
rA. Yes, sir; I told him it was not right.,
Q. What did the policeman say? A. He said some of the
men were blind, and you have to have these men go in with
them.
Q. Did any of them make affidavit to that effect? A. Not
then; no, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did they take the disability oath? A. No, sir.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Did they apply to the inspectors for assistance? A. No, sir.
Q. They did not ask for any help? A. No, sir; it was not
necessary.
Q. They walked right in with them from the door? A. Yes,
sir; they did as they pleased.
Q. Describe what they did. A. What do you mean; about
those vcters going in with them?
Q. Descrine the operationa? A. I told the police officer that
it was not right
Q. That what was not right? A. For these workers to go in
the booths with the voters; and on two or three occasions he
did not make any objections to it, and so I stopped, because I
saw it was useless.
Q. Now, going back to the voters going into the booths, I
understood you to say that none of the voters applied to the
inspectors to appoint any one to go in with them? A. No, sir.
Q. Did they go to the inspectors at all, until they went there
with the ballots? A. No, sir.
Q. Did they take any oaths before they went into the booth?
A. No, sir.
Q. Those voters came into the voting plnce nl:ccompanied
by what you may call a heeler, did they? A. Yes, sir; a Tam-:mvny workers.
Q2. And the two, went immediately into the booth? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Without any preliminaries? A. Yes, sir; without any preliminaries.
Q. How often did that occur during the day? A. Right
straight along, all day.
Q. How many cases of that sort were there? A. Probably
20 to 30.




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810
Q. Out of this 20 or 80, were there men who were actually
disabled? A. I saw some with their arms tied up.
Q. How many of those? A. Two or three.
Q. Were there any others who had the appearance of being
disabled? A. No, sir.
Q. Did those two or three who had their arms tied up take
any paths? A. No, sir.
Q. You say you protested to the policeman several times?. Yes, sir.
Q. And he did nothing? A. No, sir; he did nothing whatever.
Q. What did he say about it? A. He said it must be they,
could not read, or something of that kind, or they must be
blind.
Q. Did you recognize any one coming in to vote the second
time; the same person voting more than once? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many of them, for instance, were there? A. Thirty
or 40, I guess.
Q. Did you call attention to that fact? A. There was another
watcher with me, Mr. Holt, and he called attention to that fact.
Q. What did he say? A. He called the chairman's attention;
I told him it was about time to make some of these men stop
from voting three or four times, and he said, "I know this man
has voted twice," and I said, "Call the chairman's attention to it,"
and they did so.
Q. What did he say to the chairman? A. He told him that
this man, that he specified then, had voted two or three times,
and he wanted him arrested, and the chairman says, "If he
swears in his vote, let him vote."
Q. Where was the policeman when this was said? A. ie was
right there.
Q. How far from the voter? A. About two, feet
Q. Where he could hear the conversation? A. Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. And he said that he had Voted two or three times at that
same election poll? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Your friend said that he voted two or three times that day,
at that poll? A. Yes, sir; I don't know where else he voted, but
he voted there two or three times.
Q. And the chairman said if he swore it in he would receive
it? A. Yes, sir.
Q Did he swear it in? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any suggestion made to the policeman that the
rman sbunld be arre.ted?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who made that remark? A. Yes, sir.




r Q. What did he say to the policeman? W. He said,!I want
you to arrest that man," and he said, the policeman said, "If he
sw:ears it in we must let him go," and the policeman did not
arrest him.
Q. Did the policeman say what you have just now stated?
I. I think so; words to that effect.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Have you given the language of the policeman as nearly as
you can? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was it? A. "If he swears in his vote. it is all right,
let him go; " then my partner went up to see the district leader,
Mr. Shea, but he did not find him.
By Senator Campbell:
Q. What Assembly district is that? A. The Second Assembly
district, the twenty-fifth election district
Q. You are a Republican waicher? A. Yes, sir.
Q You had another Republican watcher there, too, did you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there a Republican captain in charge of the district?
A. I did not see another Republican there at all; it is pretty
hard work to be a Republican in that district
Q. I did not ask you that; I asked you if there was a Republican captain there? A. No, sir; there was a Democratic captain
there.
Q. And the Republican leader of the Assembly district was
Mr. Shea? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who appointed you as watcher? A. The Republican dclb;
500 Fifth avenue.
Q. Where do you live? A. Twenty-six Charles street.
Q. Did you tell anyone in the Republican club within the last
week or 10 days that you were to testify here? A. No, sir.
Q. To whom did you communicate that you were to testify
here? A. To nobody.
Q. Did they knorw what you were going to testify to? A. I do
not think they did
Q. You did not speak to anyone as to what occurred on election
day? A. I have not since I came here; I have in the meantime,
certainly; between now and election day do you mean?
Q. Yes? A. Certainly, I have to a great many.
Q. To whom? A. To anybody who would ask me.
Q. To whom have you particularly told it? A. I can not:
remember now exactly who.




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Q. Do you know how you came to be suBipoenaed here a 
witness? A. No; I got a subpoena last night.
Q. Did you talk with Mr. Grasse? A. I did just now as I cane
In here.
Q. Not before? A. No, sr.
Q. Nor to Judge Sutherland? W. No, sir.
Q. You do not know who gave your name to the counsel? 
I do not.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did you make any complaint at all to the authorities of this
irregularity; to the grand jury or any other tribunal? A. No,
sir.
Q. Or to the police captain? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know the policemen who were present when these
irregulities were going on? A. I don't know their names.
Q. Do you know their number? A. I can not remember their
number, but I think I can get them probably.
Q. There was n violation or blows? A. No, sir.
Q. Everything was harmonious? A. Yes, sir, because they had
everything their own way.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Were those proceedings characteristic of the whole day's
performance; did they start out from the opening of the polls
and keep it up until the close? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did I understand you to say that you did not protest more
than three or four times because you considered it useless? A.
That is the idea exactly.
Q. Your protests were ineffective? A. Yes, sir.
Q. No notice was taken to any protest you made?. No, sir.
Louis J. Kliembohl, called on behalf of the oommittee, being
duly sworn, testified as follows:
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Number 53 Avenue A.
Q. Do you know Mr. Ottr Kempner? A. I do.
Q. Were you the secretary of his association last yrar? X
Yes, sir.
Q. He was a candidate for election to the Assembly, was he?
A  Yes, sir.
Q. Upon an independent ticket? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know the fact that he had lithographs posted in the
windows of the stores in the district? A. I do.




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Q Was ther a report made on Friday iefore election or a
complaint made in regard to the police interference? A. Yes,
sir; on Friday morning we received a return that the police
were going around the district ordering the lithographs to be
taken down.
Q. What did you do, if anything, in regard to that? A. On
Friday afternoon I had occasion to go out by request of Mr.
Kempner on some business, and on my way I saw a gentleman
in civilian's clothes going from store to store, and in him I
recognized a police officer, and as I passed there, I took particular notice of his business, and I saw at one of the stores where
he entered a lithograph of Mr. Kempner was exposed in a window, and on my way back this lithograph had disappeared.
Q. How long a journey did you take - how far did you travel?. About 15 minutes.
Q. When you came back, wherever those lithographs had been
they were removed? A. Yes, sir; at this particular place.
Q. Do you know the policeman's name? A. I do not.
Q. But he was one whom you had seen in uniform? A. Yes, sr.
Q. But on this occasion he was in civilian's dress? A. Yes, sir.
Cross-examination waived.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Do you know whether he was on the force at the time?
IA Yes, sir; and he is on the force yet
Q You have seen him since in uniform? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you had seen him before in uniform? A. Yes, sir.
Q. On the police force? A. Yes, sir.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. The store in which you saw the lithographs -did you make
any inquiry as to what was the cause of taking them down?
A. I did not.
Q. Then you don't know whether the policeman ordered them
down or not? A. No; but he was there before, and when I got
back the pictures had disappeared.
Q. You do not know whether the policeman ordered him to
iake them down or not? A. No, sir.
Proceedings of the sixth meeting of the committee, March 26,
1894, at 10 o'clock a. m.
Present.- Senators Clarence Lexow, Daniel Bradley, George
W. Robertson and Jacob A. Cantor.
Appearances as before.
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Moses Phillips, called as a witness, being duly sworn, feslfled
as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Thirty-six Bowery.
Q. What is your business? A. I am a laborer.
Q. Where did you vote last fall? A. Second election district
namd Third Assembly.
Q. What street and number, please? A. Thirty-four Bayard
street.
Q. Thirty-four Bayard street? A. Yes.
Q. Raise your voice a little; were you a watcher that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. A Republican watcher? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you about the polls nearly all the day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was the policeman in attendance there? A. There
were two policemen there:
Q. Do you know their names? A. I do not, sir.
Q. Do you know their number? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you challenge any votes that day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you request any arrest to be made? A. Yes, sir.
Q. About what time in the day? A. This was about 9
o'clock in the morning.
Q. What was the name of the man whom you requested should
be arrested? A. John McOaffrey.
Q. What was the reason for desiring his arrest? A False
registration.
Q. What happened? A. Well, I told the officer I wanted that
man arrested; so the man said, "I will put my vote in first;" and
I said, " No, officer, he will not put in any vote, because he don't
live in that house," and the officer said, "If he wants to swear
In his vote he can swear it in;" I said, "All right, I want the
mlan arrested;" I had the man arrested and taken to the Eldridge street station-house and went with him, and before I went
with him I took him to 35 Bowery, the lodging-house, with the
policeman, to the place where he said he lived, and where he
had registered from; I got him up there before the clerk, and I
says to the clerk, "Does this man live in this house?" and he
says, "No;" right in front of the policeman; then we went to
the Eldridge street station, and when we got to the Eldridge
street station-house, we found a half dozen officers in citizen's
clothes, and Captain Devery, and went before the desk and
before any questions were asked
Q. Who was behind the desk? A. The sergeant was behind
the desk; before any questions were asked somebody on the




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floo says, "What! th th  an election case?" "Yes;" "Who Is
making this charge? "' the officer said, "This man here;" "Yoa
will make a charge against him for intoxication and disorderly
conduct."
Q. Who said that? '. Captain Devery, the man on the floor.
Q. Captain Devery asked what the case was? A. Yes, sir.
- Q. And the officer told him it was an election case? A
Yes, sir.
Q. And he wanted to know who made the charge? A. Yes
sir.
Mr. Nicoll.-Are you going to tell the story?
Mr. Sutherland.-No, but I want to know it; you know I am
from the country.
Q. Did the captain ask your name? A. No, sir.
Q. Did the policeman tell your name? A. No, sir.
Q. What did he say about it? A. He called some one from
the back room and said, "Make this man your prisoner."
Q. What happened then? A. I was taken to the Esset
Market
Q. Who took you there? A. Officer Warner.
Q. It was not the same officer that came from the polling
place? A. No, sir; this officer was in the sitting-room.
Q. What became, so far as you could see, of the officer who
went to the polling place with you? A. He took this man to
Essex Market.
Q. He took the other man? A. He took the other man to
Essex Market; Officer Warner arrested me and took me to Essex
Market
Q. What happened' then? A. When I came there, Judge Ryan
was on the bench-he was not on the bench when I came there
but he was in the private room-and he came out and said,
"Phillips, you are charged with intoxication; I fine you $5,"
I says, "All right"
Q. Wait a moment; was that the first thing he said when he
first came out? A. That was the first thing he said when he
came out
Q. Had you seen anybody go In there? A. Yes, sir; half a
dozen.
Q. What became of the officer that took you there? A. He
was standing there.
Q. And what became of the officer that took the other man
there? A. He was standing there.
Q. Can you tell who it was communicated to Judge Ryan the
fact that you were there? A. Well, no; not exactly.
Q. I understand you, the first thing that Judge Ryan said
when he came out was, "You are charged with intoxication;




I fine you $5." A. Yes, sir; and I went to the clerl and paid the
$5, and wanted to make a complaint against the man, and he said,
"(No, put him out;' I wanted to male a complaint against him for
false registration.
Q. What did you say to Judge Ryan? A. I said I want to make
a complaint against this man, McCaffrey, for false registration.
Q. What happened then? A. I was put out.
Q. Who put you out? A. One of the court officers.
Q. What was said to you? A. Nothing at all; I had to go out.
Q. Did anybody tell him to put you out? A. Yes.
Q. Who? A. The judge.
Q. What became of MoCaffrey? A. McOaffrey was discharged.
Q. Now,-you were turned out of the courtrourm? A. Yes, ir.
Q. Anything happen to you after that?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was it? A. About an how after that Oaptain Devery came around, and he said, "You here yet?"
Q. Where was this? A. This was at 34 Bayard street; at the
polling place.
Q. You had gone back to your place as watcher? A. Yes, sir;
he said, "You here yet; ain't you got enough?" I said, "No, sir;
I amn going to stay here until the polls close," and he said, "( You
are foolish."
Q. Anything else? A. That is all.
Q. Now, did anything happen to you on your way from the
courthouse down to the polling place? A. Yes, sir; wher I got
out in front of the Essex Market somebody got behind me and
hit me in the ear, which he wouldn't do if I was looking at him.
Q. Were any officers standing there? A. Yes, sir; but they got
away in a hurry; there was about two there; and a half a dozea
near of the heelers.
Q. How far was this assault from the court where you were
fined? A. Right in front of the Essex Market court.
Q. How far from it? A. About 10 feet
Q. About 10 feet? A. About 10 feet
Q. About 10 feet; and it was just after you left the conrtmrom?
A. Just the mcment I struck out I was hit under the ear from
behind.
Q. You say there were a number,f policemen near by? A
There were two policemen there.
Q. Did they see it? A. They must have seen it; I see the'aI
all skin away.
Q. They all skipped away, did they? A. Yes, sir.
Q. From there you went to the polling place? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was about an hour after that that Captain Devery
asked you if you hadn't had enough? A. Yea




317 j


Q. Now, while you were serving as such watcher, Mr. PhillipnA
did you observe any irregularities? A. Yes.
Q. On the part of the voters? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What? A. A man of the name of Brockman, of No. 33
Bowery — he ran a sort of a hotel at 33 Bowery -he was gathering up paster ballots.
Q. Where was he? A. I suppose coming in the polling plaoe;
the polling place was in the basement
Q. This was how far from the booth? A. About 15 feet
Q. Well, what then? A. Well, I told the officer, and the
officer put him away; I told him the second time after seeing
him doing it again, and he put him away again, and he done it
the third time, and he put him away, and did not arrest him;
I thought the officer knew more about it than I did, so I did not
order him to arrest him.
Q. You did not make any complaint? A. No, sir.
Q. Were there any other irregularities you saw? A. That is
about all.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You did not drink at all on election day, did you? A. I did.
Q When did you have your first drink; when was the first;
about what hour? A. About half-past 6.
Q. Morning or evening? A. In the morning.
Q. What was that? A. What?
Q. What was it? A. Whisky.
Q. What was the next; what was the hour of the next? A.
Oh, about 7 o'clock.
Q. A little whisky? A. No.
Q. Beer? A. A little beer.
Q. Then, about 7 on election day, you had had one whisky and
one beer? A. And one beer; yes, sir.
Q. When was the next? A. What?
Q. When was the next? A. Well, I don't tell you that; I
don't remember every time I took a drink.
Q. So many you couldn't remember? A. Oh, no; not at all.
Q. Well, about when was the next drink? A. I suppose right
before the arrest. 
Q. Well, the hour of that I have forgotten, whatever that
was; when was that? A. About 9 o'clock.
Q. Whisky or beer? A. I took a glass of beer.
Q. Is that all you had to drink up to that time? A. Yes, sir;
that is all.
Q. Had any breakfast? A. Yes, sir; I had my breakfast; I
don't think I was going to starve.  —.




318


Q. One whisky and two beers?    X. One whisky and two
Beers
Q. Might there not have been two whiskeys and one beer? A.
No, sir; it was one whisky and two beers.
Q. Well, you were perfectly sober, weren't you? A. I was;
yes, sir.
Q. But people said you were drunk, didn't they? A. They
were the heelers around there, that said that.
Q. But you were sober? A. I was sober.
Q. Although you had had one whisky and two beers? A.
One whisky and two beers; yes, sir; two beers and one whisky.
Q. What was it; two beers and one whisky, or one whisky
and two beers.
Chairman Lexow. —That is about the same thing. It is too
Cerious a subject to trifle with.
Mr. Nicoll.-I think I ought to have considerable latitude
with this witness. I have not kept account of the number of
times he has stated it. I presume the chairman has.
Q. How long have you lived in the Bowery? A. About nine
tonths.
Q. And prior to that time, where did you live? A. One hun-dred and twenty-nine Allen street
Q. What was your business there? A. Laborer.
Q. Well, in what sort of occupation? A. Park department;
and I worked in the navy yard.
Q. When were you working last in the navy yard? A. In
the month of August.
Q. And after that where were you working? A. Working; I
was working for a cousin of mine in Avenue C.
Q. What is his name? A. Phillips is his name-Abraham.
Q. That is your name, too? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is Phillips' business? A. Wholesale toy dealer.
Q. You were working for him? A. I was; yes, sir.
Q. How long did you work for him? A. Oh, about three
months.
Q. In what capacity? A. Oh, selling goods.
Q. Salesman? A. As salesman; yes, sir.
Q. When did you stop working for Phillips? A. About in
October.
Q. Then where did you go to work? A. For Frederick Krale.
Q. Who? A. Frederick Krale.
Q. Krale? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is his business? A. Plumber and ganfitter.
Q. How long did you work for him? A. Worked for him up
to about January 28th.
Q. January 28th of this year? A. Yes; of this year..
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319


Q. When were you last working in tlte park department? A.
A couple of years ago.
Q. Were you laid off there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or turned off? A. I was laid off, when Tammany Hall laid
everybody off.
Q. How is that? A. I was laid off when Tammany Hall laid
everybody off.
Q. When was that? A. That was the year they took charge,
after the County Democracy got out of power; everybody waEa
suspended in the park department.
Q. Were you a County Democracy man? A. No, sir.
Q. What were you at that time? A. A Republican.
Q. Always a Republican? A. Always a Republican.
Q. Well, you were laid off in 1888? A. I think it was; I aint
sure; at the time Tammany Hall took charge, after-the OounXt
Democracy went out of power.
Q. You don't feel bitter on that account, do you? A. No.
Mr. Sutherland.- One of the fortunes of war.
Q. How long had you been in the park department? A. 0l
and off for three years.
Q. In what capacity? A. As laborer, bridge tender..Q. Who appointed you there? A. Mr. John E. Brodsky,
through Mr. John E. Brodsky.
Q. Through Mr. John E. Brodsky? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Brodsky was a prominent Republican? A. He was,
yes, sir.
Q. Is he still a prominent Republican? A. No, sir.
Q. He is now a member of Tammany Hall? A. Yes, sir; he is
now a member of Tammany Hall.
Q. But you have remained a Republican? A. I have remained
a Republican. 
Q. Have you ever had any differences with the polioe? A. Not
sir.
Q. Never before this day? A. No, sir.
Q. You have never been arrested by them?
(Objected to by Mr. Sutherland and excluded.)
Mr. Niooll.-I would submit th, the committee that on reflteo
tion, that after all, that is a very fair question on an inquiry of
a witness for the committee, seriously, not applying the rule of
evidence in criminal courts, or civil courts, where a man is on
trial for his life or liberty. We are now conducting an investigation into the police department. The committee calls witnesses
without number, and I ask them whether a? not they have had
differences with police officers, in which, perhaps, an unfounded
arrest was made. Wouldn't that be a very proper thing to show t




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hairmian Lexow.- If that arrest was made by the particular
police officer who is charged with having violated his duty an
election day, it might. This committee is bound for its own protection to protect witnesses  If a wide latitude is given you to
examine the witnesses as to any altercation or arrest, we mia
find ourselves in the position where the attendance of witnesses
here is rendered extremely difficult; because it is just that species
of intimidation that we must guard against, in order to secure
testimony here at all.
Mr. Niooll.- While that is entirely true, the onmmittee has,
after all, a higher obligation than that, and that is, not to take
testimony, and spread on the record any testimony whiyI is not
strictly true and free from prejudice. There is no doubt that
there is a higher obligation even than procuring the attendance
of witnesses, and to show —I do not know that it existr in this
ease-but as a rule, to show that witness, who appears, has had
altercations with various police officers in his district, and therafore has a bias.
Chairman Lexow. —It would be perfectly proper for you to
ask the question whether he had any difference with the police.
But I do not believe any man, however innocent, cares to go on
record as having been arrested, although he may have been perfectly innocent; and this committee must protect itself by pro
tecting witnesses in that respect You can ask the witness
whether he has had any differences with the police.
Mr. Nicoll.- I have asked that.
Q. Were you ever arrested and convicted of any offense? XA
No, sir.
Q. You were of disorderly conduct? A. Yes; I was fined $5.
Q. Was that the only time you ever was fined? A. That is the
only time.
Q. The only time you were ever fined? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or imprisoned? A. Or imprisoned.
Q. Are you a married man? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you a worker on election day? A. I was; yes, sir.
Q. Were you paid to attend the polls? A. I was not paid; no,
sir.
Q. Weren't you paid something for election day? A. No, sir.
Q. Nothing at all? A. No, sir.
Q. At whose instance did you attend the polls on election day?
A. Mr. Charles Murray.
Q. Are you a member of his organization in that distriot? A.
Not now.
Q. Were you then? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did I understand you to say you were a watcher? A. Yes,
IdSr.




321


Q.Appointed to attend the polls? A. Tuside and outside.
Q.Did you have a certificate? A. Yes, sir; I did.
Q. And filed it with inspwytors of election? A. No, air; I did
not.
Q. What did you do with it? A.. I had it in my pocket, signed
by the Republican committee.
-Q. Did~n't you present it to the inspectors? A. I showed it to
the officers.
Q. But you did not show it to t&e inspectors of electiona?
A. I hadn't any trouble, as fax as that goes
Q. So far as what goes? A. As the papers go.
Q. Your complaint is -that they did not entertain a chairge that
yoru mnade,- is it not?
Mr. Sutherland.-T object; the witness did not mnake any complaint I am the man that made the complaint. The witness is
here by virtue of the complaint
Q. Did you make a comnplaint?
Mr. Sutherland.- Objected to.
The Chairman. — The q'uestion is too indefinite.
Q. Didn't you make a complaint against someone -for false
registration?
Mr. Sutherland.- Oh, that is anotlier thing.
Chairman Lexow.- That is proper.
The Witness.-Yes~ sir.
Q.And- the officers reported that you were intoxicated?
A. The officer. did not; the captain of the precinct did.
Q. The captain did? Ak. Ye-S.
Q. And said you were intoxicated? A. Yes, sir; after finding
out he Inade the complaint.
Q. After findling out he made the complaint? A. Yes, sir.
Q. As a matter of fact you had been drinking beer and whisky
before 9 o'clock? A. I drank one whisky and two beers.
Mr. Sutherland.- Objected to; as the witness has gone over
that three or four times.
Chairman Lexow.- Yes. The counsel may think by constant
repetition he makes two beers and one -whisky half a dozen.
Mr. Sutherlan-d.- But he wastes -the time of the committee.
'The question has been ruiled orut Please go on, Mr. Nicoll.
Q. As I understand -you, you madle the complaint against
McOaffrey for false vorUtiTg in the polling placer A. Yes~ air.
By Ghaiunian Lexow:
<.False registration? A. Yes, sir; false registraitonm
py Mr. Nicoll:
Q.You chcallenged him first? A. Yes.
Q.And then he voted? A. lie voted and swore. in his vote,
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Q. And you asked the officer to arrest him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which he did? A. Yes, which he did.
Q. And you both started to the' station-house? A. No, sir;
started to the hotel.
Q. And from the hotel you both went to the station-house?
KA Went to the station-house.
Q. And there it was that some one said-I understood the
captain-said you were drunk? A. He asked the officer who
was making the complaint.
Q. You stood there? A. He said, "This man here," and he
said, "Make a charge against him for disorderly oonduct and
Intoxication."
Q. You had not been disorderly? A. No, sir.
Q. Quiet and peaceable? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were not intoxicated? A. No, sir.
Q. Well, but they made a charge against you of intoxication?
a. Yes, sir; made a charge against me.
Q. And then you went to the Essex Market Court? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you mean to testify that on arriving at Essex Market
Court, Judge Ryan came out of a private room and.said, "You
are fined $5, Phillips?" A. Yes, sir; he sat down and said, "You
are fined $5."
Q. No hearing? A. No hearing; no, sir.
Q. No evidence against you? A. No, sir.
Q. No one sworn; no statement taken? A. T don't know
whether they did: I didn't see none.
Q. You were present right there? A. Yes, sil.
Q. Nothing of that sort was done? A. No, sir.
Q. Still you were fined $5? A. I was nined $5.
Q. Did you ask to make any defense? A. No, sir; I was not
asked to make any defense.
Q. Did they tell you what the charge was? A. They did not
tell me what the charge was against them people.
Q. Did they tell jou what the charge was against you? A.
Intoxication.
Q. Did you deny it? A. I did not have a chanre to deny it.
Q. He came out and sat down and said, "You are charged with
Itaxication and are fined $5." A. And I said, "All right," and
walked over and paid $5.
Q. You admitted it? A. I said, "All right," and walked over
and-paid it when he said I was fined $5.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You said two beers and one whisky on the top of the
morning? A. Yes, sir.




VQ. Iow many can you take during the day and keep sobert
A. A dozen and a half.
Q. You took a whisky in the morning as an eye-opener? A.
I took a whisky in the morning as an eye-opener.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Were you charged by anybody at the polls with intoxication
previous to making that arrest, or at the time of making it? A.
No. sir.
Q. Then the first intimation you had that there was any
charge against you of any kind was, when the police captain
ordered the charge to be made against you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had the officer who accompanied you made any statement
to the police captain to the effect that you were drunk or dio
orderly before the police captain ordered the charge made? A.
Nzo, sir.
Q. How long after you reached the courtroom of Judge Ryan
was it that Ryan came out and convicted and fined you as you
state? A. It took about five minutes.
Q. And did I understand you to say that a number of people
while you were sitting there, and before he came out, went into
the judge's private room? A. I did see people go in there.
Q. How many? A. There were three or four.
Q. Did you recognize any of those people as being officers in
civilian's clothes? A. No, sir.
Q. Did the officer who was with you go in? A. No, sir.
Q. And was the first thing that was said upon your arraign
inent, the language used by the police justice, as you have test
fied to? A. Yes, sir; "you are charged with intoxication, and
are fined $5."
Q. Had anybody charged you with that in his presence? A.
No, sir.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Then, as matter of fact, you went after the assault, to the
polls, and remained there all the rest of the day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Until the polls closed? A. Yes.
Q. Until the ballots were counted? A. Not all through; I
went until 11 o'clock.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Was this man that was arrested at your instance; was he
discharged without any hearing of testimony, and without anj
hearing? A. I was put out of the courtroom, so I don't know,




324
Q. Your testimony was not taken?. No, sir; I thought the
officer had enough testimony to have this man locked up without
me anyhow.
Q. The same officer who was present at the time of the
false voting? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was not present before Judge Ryan? A. Yes, sir; he was
there, too.                              l
Q. Did he go into Judge Ryan's room  before yua were
arraigned? A. No, sir.
Q A policeman there all the time? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Where are you living now? A. Thirty-five Bowery.
Q. What is that? A. That is Myers' Hotel.
Q. How long have you been living there? A. Nine months.
Q. Prior to that, were you living in Allen street? A. Yes, sir;
129.
Q. Where are you working now?   A. Just now, I am not
working at all.
Q. How long since you have been working?   A. About a
month.
Q. About a month? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where were you last working? A. At Krale's
Q. Haven't you worked since you worked at Krale's? A. No,
sir.
Q. You have done no work for the last month? A. Yes, sir;
I canvassed a little bit.
Q. Canvassed? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What do you mean by that? A. I was selling hens and
chickens.
Q. Selling hens? A. Hens and chickens to put in egg store
windows for Easter.
Q. Selling hens'and chickens in the Bowery, or where? A.
All over.
Q. All over the city? A. Pretty near; from Harlem bridge to
the Battery. 
Q. Who did you do that for? A. Phillips.
Q. You mean your relative? A. My cousin; yes, sir.
Q. When did you do that work? A. I done that up until
about Thursday night.
Q. Last Thursday? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you make this statement last that you have
made here to-day? A. Which statement; right here?
Q. I say this statement you made here to-day; before this; who
did you tell it to before this? A. Tell what?




825


Q. This story; this statement of your arrest and fine of $5
and charge against McCaffrey? A. I made that statement a few
days after election; I did not make it, but I wrote it out
Q. Who   did  you  write it to? A. To   the  Republican
association.
Q. How long have youbeen in New York? A. Well, I have
been here since I have been one year old.
Q. You are not a native of this city? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you born here? A. I was born in New Blunswick,
in the State of New Jersey.
Q. How old are you? A. I am 37 years old.
Walter W. Bahan, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testifled as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. What is your name? A. Walter W. Bahan.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Two hundred and forty-six West
Fourteenth street
Q. What is your business? A. Lawyer and real estate agent
Q. Were you a candidate for election to the Assembly last
year? A. I was.
Q. Had you previously served in the Assembly? A. I had.
Q. What year? A. Assembly of 1893.
Q. That year you were a member of the Assembly as a Tam.
many Hall representative? A. I was
Q. And last year you tiled an independent nomination? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Who was the regular Tammany candidate? A. John
McDermott
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What district is this in? A. Ninth.
Mr. Sutherland. — Ninth Assembly district, Mr. Nicoll; I hove
subpoenaed Mr. Kipp here to bring these papers.
Mr. Nicoll.-Don't call him if unnecessary; I will admit them.
Mr. Sutherland. —I show the witness the petitions for the
independent nominations of Walter W. Bahan for Member of
Assembly in the Ninth Assembly district, and indorsed, "Filed
October 21, 1893, at 11:50 a. m." All I care for is the fact that
they were there and were filed at that time.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. lid you visit the office of the bureau of elections on the
third day after your petitions were filed? A. Not the office of
elections; no, sir




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Q. The bureau of elections? A. Not the bureau of elections.
Q. What was it? A. The clerk of the police department
Q. And who was in charge of that department? A. Major
Iipp was in charge as the clerk, and Mr. Delamater is clerk
there.
Q. Who was in charge? A. Delamater
Q. Who was with you? A. John E. Flannery and David
Lloyd.
Q. Do you remember what time of the day it was? A. I think
it was about 1 o'clock.
CQ You went there to inquire whether objections had been
iled? A. I went there twice.
Q. Twice on that day? A. And on the following day.
Q. Did you make the inquiry on this day —the third day 
A. Yes.
Q. What reply did you get? A. No objections here.
Q. You went there the next day and madl the same inquiry?
Yes.
Q. What answer did you get? A. No objections had been
fled; no objections to my nomination.
Q. You understood that the statute provided that unless
objections were filed within three days, your name would have
to be printed on the ticket? A. Yes; within three days of the
filing of the certificate.
Q. And on the fourth day they told you none had been filed?
YA. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you subsequently learn objections had been subsequently filed? A. I did.
Q. When? A. On the day in which the police commissioners
mat and heard the evidence.
Q. And how long was that after the three statutory days?
rA. About three days
Q. Three days afterward?
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Making six after the filing? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. And then for the first time you learned that objection
were before the commissioners? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go there in person? A. I did.
Mr. Nicoll.-Are not the objections here?
Mr. Sutherland.- Possibly.
Mr, Nicoll.-Don't they show the date of filing
Mr. Sutherland.-No; the record will show.




a27


Q. Did the police commissioners assume to go on tkese objea
tions? A They did.
Q. And what disposition did they make of it?   A. Thej
accepted the objections, and threw out the certificate.
Q. That is, threw out your certificate? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you compelled to go to the courts? A. I was
Q. And obtained a mandamus? A. I did.
Q. And required them to print your name? A. I did.
Q. Your name was afterward printed? A. On a separate bat
lot by itself.
Q. In pusumanee of an order of the court? A. Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. On a separate ballot? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. That was an independent nomination? A. No other name
was on it.
Q. At the time these police conmmissioners were sitting, six
days after your papers were filed, did they claim the statute
gave them authority to receive the objections after three days?
A. I heard no such claim.
Q. Did they laim they had any power to legislate on that subject themselves? A. I heard no such claim.
Q. They simply took them and acted upon them? A. Yes, sir.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Was it not claimed in that case that the certificate of nominag
tion was not in apparent conformity with the provisions of section 65 of the Election Code? A. Well, I presume that was their
claim-I beg your pardon, Mr. Nicoll, that was not their claim.
Q. You understand the rule in regard to the three days objeetion? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There is one exception to it, and that is where it is claimed
that the certificate is not in conformity with the provisions of
article 65? A. Yes, sir; they made no such claim.
Q. Well, was the question that objections were -mproperly considered litigated before the justice? That was not the question
litigated before the justice? A. Before Judge Barrett.
Q. Yes, whoever decided it? A. I can tell you what the question was there, and answer your question more fully.
Q. Are you a lawyer? A. I am, yes; the question there was
that the affidavits to the nominee's certificate were not in form,
insmauch as the affidavits of the persons having signed oertfi



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cates was not taken, and that the other person in signing th4.t
certifioate, filed counter-affidavits that they did not know what
they signed when they signed those certificates.
Q. That is, you filed with the police commissioners a petition
-a certificate of nomination in apparent conformity with the
statute; it appeared by its face to be regular? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Afterward several persons who had Migned it, made affidavit that they had signed it under some mistaken facts? A.
That is the fact.
Q. Then the commissioners heard those objections, didn't they,
under those circumstances? A. They heard the assistant district
attorney, Mr. McIntyre, who appeared for them.
Q. Then they decided against you, and threw out your independent nomination? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the judge restored you to your position on the ground
that your certificate of nomination could not be attacked in that
way? A. That is about the size of it.
Q. That is about the size of the whole thing; and yonl ran for
office, and were either defeated or elected, I forget which? A.
I think it is a matter of record; I was defeated, of course.
Mr. Nicoll.- Very well; as matter of record we will take jud'cial notice of it.
Mr. Sutherland.-Then I will offer in evidence unless counsel
is ready t( go upon record as making the concession, that, as
matter of fact, these certificates did in all respects conform to
the statute.
Chairman Lexow.- I understood Mr. Nicoll to admit that tac<t,
The only dispute there was, was as to the validity or the onood
faith alone of some affidavits.
Mr. Sutherland.- The signatures,
Mr. Nicoll.-I don't know anything about it
Mr. Sutherland.- I offer them all in evidence.
Papers marked "Exhibit 1" of this date.
By Chairman Lexow.
Q. During your canvass as Member of the Assembly, were you
persecuted or interfered with by the police? A. Personally,
I was not.
Q. Was your canvass?  A. Indirectly; yes, sir.
Q. In what method? A. They meddled with people who joined
my association; being in the liquor business, their places were
pulled on Sunday, while other places were allowed to remain
open.
Q BHow many incidents do you know of that having been done?
L I know of three friends of mine who deldared their places
aere pulled.




Q. On the Simday following t-heir declaration, In your case?
L  Yes.
Q.We-re these places pulled mome tha~n onee? A. Only once_.
Q.By C1 pulling "1you mean they were elosed up every Sunday?
W. Tfhe bartenders were arresi-ed, or the prpietors.
Q. Were arrested? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And charged with unlawfully selling? A. Violating the
Sunday Excise Law.
Q-you know pensonally of three 1nstanoe~ 4 that kind?' ~~
Yes, sir.
Q. Do YOU know of any of these liquor dealers who wer~e Interested in the canvass of your opponents who were closed up at
the same time? A. No, sir.
Q. Not (me? A. Not one that I know of; just the reverse; these
men who were oloeed up were made to promise to be good, fait*.
ful Tamay men and- support John McDermortt.
Q.And in consideration of that promise their places were left
open? A.I presume so; Idid uovisit them; Inever heard of
their being arrested again.
Q. Did you see their places open? A. I did not.
Q.Do you know who did? A. I do not.
Q. Was there any other interference with your campaign? A.
I only heard of one in which a party was asked to take back
their signature from my certificate.
Q. Do you know whether the police were instrumental in that?
A. No more than aubout -five minutexs -after lie refusewd to take his
name back the man was compelled to -take in his, showcase.
Q. Do you know his name? A. lie has been subpoeua~ed as a
witness here to-day.
0. Whot was his name? A. William IR. Richords.
Q. Were his showcases interfered with before he came out for
you? A.. Not to my knowledge.
Q.Were the showcases of anybody in favor of your. politiopil
opponents interfered with in the campaign? A. No, sir; not to
my knowledge'.
Q. How long after this man had declared for you was this interference, with the showcases had? A. Within five minutes after
he had refused to withdraw his name from my certificate, and'
sign a ceirtificate, starting he did not know what he had signed.
Q. There has been some testimony here that certain of thest.
affiants afterward withdrew their affidavits charging they had
signed that ignorantly; do you know whether they were induced
to d( that byv the police? A. That I don't know; I do not believe
they were; it was by the captains or -the leaders of the Ninth
Assembly districtL.    ~42




330
Q. Were your campaign wagons interfered with.during the
campaign? A. They were, at one time.
0. By the police? A. No, sir; the police went to work and
caught hold of the horses' heads, and refused to have them go
through my meetings, and held them until I told them to let them
go through; they tried to break up my meeting; the police pre-Pnttced thorn from dooinr it. and refused to allow the wagon to
go through, until I told them to let go of the horses and let
tiem go through; I had no interference from the police.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You got the protection of the police? A. Yes, sir; I will
give everybody their dues.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Were these three liquor dealing friends of yours violating
the law? A. Not being present, I do not know; I presume
thov were, otherwise they would not have been arrested.
Q. They were selling liquor on Sunday? A. I don't say they
were; I presume they were; but when they arrested those three
they ought to arrest every man in the ward.
Q. And they do that over in your ward? A. I presume so;
not going around amongl all the liquor stores; I do not think it
is hard to get into any liquor store in my ward on Sunday.
Q. Confine yourself to your own ward; I ask you whether or
not, as matter of fact, all the liquor stores in that ward during
that month were open on Sunday? A. I don't know; because
I made no canvass of them on Sundays
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. It was not understood that these three friends of yours
were 'any exception to the rule? A. Well, it was understood
that way.
Q. I mean to say as far as their operations on Sunday were
concerned? A. No, sir; there was no understanding of that
kind; it was only to draw their allegiance from Bahan to McDer.
mott; that is all.
William I. Kipp, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You are the clerk of the bureau of elections of the city of
New York? A. No, sir; the chief clerk of the police department
Q. And. It is in your office that certificates of election are




831


required by tie statute to be filed- I would say, ertifloates 
nonination? A. In my office; yes, sir.
Q. I show the witness Exhibit 11, which is the record of the
certificate of nomination of Walter W. Bahan; when was that
filed in your office? A. October 21st
Q. What year? A. Eighteen hundred and ninety-three, at
11:50 a. m.
Q. Eleven-fifty a. m., October 21, 1893? A. Yes.
Q. I show the witness a bundle of objections; the certificate
of nomination is indorsed when it is filed, isn't it? A. Yes, sit
Q. Indorsed with pen and ink? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you hold in your hands objections to that certificate?
A. I do.
Q. Were they filed with you? A. They were.
Q. Is there any indorsement upon any of them as to the date
of that filing? A. No, sir.
Q. When were they, as matter of fact, actually filed? A;
October 26th, at a board meeting.
Q. You have in your possession the records of that board?
A. I have. 
Q. And that record shows that on the 26th day of October
those objections were filed? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nicoll.-No cross-examination.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Were they filed with you?. I first saw them at a board
meeting.
Q. You were present at the board meeting? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why was it no indorsement of the date of filing of the
objections was made? A. The papers were sent down immediately after to the corporation oounsel's office to be used in a process which had become before the court asking a manda-mus, compelling the board to print, I think, they went d6wn the next day.
Probably the opportunity was not offered at that time, to indorse
them.
Q. Is it not customary in your office to place the date of filing
or indorse the date of filing on the papers as they are received?
A'. I made the record on the minutes at that time, and sent
the papers immediately off  in the minutes of the board of
October 26.
Q. Do those minutes disclose those papers were filed on that
day? A. Yes, sir; the certificate of Mr. Bahan came there on the
24th, and was laid over until the meeting of the 26th.
Q. Who represented the objectors? A. Mr. Mcleatyre.
Q In the district attorney's office? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Anybody else? A. Not that I know of, sir.




332


Q. Was there any representative of Mr. McDermott's there?
A. I do not remember that he was; I do not know that he was
there
Q. Any representatives of his? A. I did not hear of it.
Mr. Sutherland. —I do not care to put all these into the record,
but I should like this note to be made: that the first in the list
appears to have been sworn in on the 26th day of October, 1893,
and that it is written upon letter-heads bearing this indorsement:
"Tammany Hall Headquarters, Democratic-Republican. General
Committee, Ninth Assembly District, 587 Hudson Street, Ross
1luilding; " I desire the further fact to go upon the record, that,
as I understand it, all of these affidavits were sworn to either on
the 26th or 25th day of October; the certificate of nomination
having been filed on the 21st, so that these papers could not have
been filed within the three days prescribed by the statute; now,
Ir. Nicoll, I do not desire to keep these papers here, and do not
-want to be responsible for them, and that paper has been marked
as exhibit
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. I would like to ask Mr. Kipp a question or two more, if he
will take thc stand again, please; has any notification been
received at the office of the commissioner with reference to the
testimony that has been taken here bearing upon the actions of
the police, and especially the action of Captain Devery during the
last election? A. Since this session?
Q. Yes? A. No, sir.
Q, No papers are on file there at all in reference to this matter?
-. No, sir.
Q. Do you know whether or not the police commissioners have
knowledge of the testimony that has been taken here? A. I do
not, sir.
Q. Has Captain Devery been called before the police commissioners and asked in reference to his actions, on last election
day? A. No, sir; not with my knowledge.
Q. Have you any record in your office of any prosecutions
or complaints with reference to the action of the police on last
election day? A. No, sir; I have none.
Q. Is there any record in the office? A. No, sir.
Q. Have any complaints been made, or charges against Captains Devery or Williams in regard to the occurrences in the
Third Assembly district, during last election?
Mr. Nicoll. —Captains Devery and Williams?
Q Captains Devery and Williams? A. Captain Devery and
Inspector Williams; I do not know of any, sir.
Q. Or against any ordinary policeman with reference to whom
it has been claimed in the police prints and elsewhere that they




333
were guilty of interference and neglect of iufyi on that day at the
polls? A. Not that I am aware of.
Q. No charges of any kind? A. Not that I am aware of.
Q. Had any investigation been made by the commissioners of
those facts? A. I don't know of any.
Q. If such a thing is put on file? A. I would have to make an
examination.
Q. Wouldn't you be the proper officer before whom the papers
would be filed? A. They are, unless complaint was made to the
superintendent personally, of which I never received copies
Q. You know there is a general opinion in this community that
the police did interfere during the last election in at least two
Assembly districts in this city? A. What is the question?
The Ohairmaan- The stenographer will tead it.
(The stenographer read the question.)
Q. You have heard of that fact, haven't you? A. No, sir.
Q. You have not? A. No, sir.
Q. Haven't you heard of any facts in relation to police interference in the Second and Third Assembly districts in this city
during last election? A. I only heard of it through reports of
this committee, reading it in the papers.
Q. Do you know whether or not the commissioners are equally
ignorant with you in reference to that matter? A. I don't know,
air.
Q. It has neier been a subject of conversation among the police
commissioners in your presence? A. I don't know of anything
of the kind, I have not heard of anything; I have no official
knowledge of that kind, either.
Q. Have you read the testimony that has been printed in the
newspapers that has been taken before this' committee? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. You have seen there definite charges made against police
officere, have you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it possible that the police commissioners have, for the
past four months, been entirely ignorant of those facts? A I
don't know sir.
Q. Do you know? A. I dont, sir; I don't know of that fact; of
course, what their knowledge is, I don't know.
Q. No charges or complaints have been made at the office?
A. None that I am aware of.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. That is, any charges made you would have a record? A. If
any charges were made, it would be in my charge as clek.
Q. Do the police commissioners, never, on their own motion,




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334
when they become aware of breaches of duty on the part of police
offiers, bring the policeman to trial? A. They direct the superinitendent to make charges, which they have filed with them, with
a complaint against the officer.
Q. No such direction has been had in this case? A. Since
last election, I could not say that, without making reference to
the files; there are a great many complaints made against officers
during that time, and I would like to make an examaination of
that, and then come before you and testify of that fact, I would
not like to do it from memory.
Q. You are certain no charge has been made by the commis
sioners against Oaptain Devery? A. None that has come within
my knowledge, or when I have been present at the meeting of the
board.
Q. Or against Inspector Williams? A. No, sir.
Mr. Nicoll.- Why should they?
Mr. Sutherland —  I am asking for the fact.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You say you have read the testimony taken before the committee? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know anything about the character of the witnesses
exainied here? A. No, sir.
Q. You do not know whether they are persons of good or bad
character? A. No, sir.
Q. Or whether they are disappointed candidates, persons of
political biaa, or otherwise, do you? A. I know nothing about
that
Morris Tekulsky, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do vou reside? A. lThirty-nine Oak street, city.
Q. What is your business? A. Liquor business.
Q. And you have some official connection with their organization? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is it, please? A. President
Q President of the State organization?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. And for a number of years you were president of the State
organization? A. I was president of the city organization for a
short time, and vice-president for four or five years.
Q. And when were you elected the president of the State
organization? A. First?
Q. Yes. A. A   ear ago last September.




835
Q.And t1~at Is awn officer elected annually? A:,nii~y
Q. o you have been re-elected? A. I was re-elcted last yeas
Q. ~oru are a, delegate to the next Constittutioiial Convention~?
A.I am.
Q. Sent from what Senate district? A. The Eighths
Q. Nominated by T-ainmany Hall? A. Nomiuatw Uby Tammany
Ball.
Q._ Do you remember at whose instan-ce? A. T do.
Q. Whose was it?   A. At the instance of the committee of
Liqulor Dealers Association of New York County.
Q. And they o~perated through whom? A. Through Mr. (Jroixer;
-they went to see Mr. Oroker, the leader of Taimmany, Hall.
Q. You have had occasion to visit Mr. Croker, yourseif, In.regard to the members of the associaton? A. Different timaes;
I1 suppose I have.
Q. Did you go at one time with a committee of -the association~
to see Mr. Oroker? A. At this time?
Q.Yes; wthen was that? A. It was just prior to the uomiina-tions; what date I (10 not know.
Q. Did you ever go with a committee more than once to M1r.
-Croker? A. Not at ths time.
Q. You have been with a committee at other times? A. Prob.
-ably a hundred times.
Q. Now, was there a time when you visited Mr. Croker and
talked with him about- made complaints about the operations
-of the policemen.; and did yoru visit 'him with the committee?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you rem~emiber a time 'when you and a, comimittee of your
~assoiciation called upon Mr. Croker with regard to. the interference
-of the police with the liquor dealers of New York,-? A. Yes.
Q. When was thait? A. It was a good many years ago; I could
not tell you exactly when.
Q. Well, didn't you call on him within the last six nionths on
-that errand? A. No, sir.
~Q. Didn't you call on him within the last three months on that,errand? A. No, sir.
Q. In reference to the police interference? A. I do not know
-as I called upon anybody lately In reference to that.
IQ. Was -there a committee appointed on that subject, of which,you were ofne, within the last six months? A. No~, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Croker tell you, or the committee in your, presence.,
within the last six months, that he would have the police oap~tains
instructed thereafter to obey the orders of the T-ammany Hall
captain in.that district with regard to the arrests with regard to
violations of the Excise Law? A. No, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Oroker tell you and this commnittee that you could




336


go yourself to any Tammany district leader, and upon your
request he would compel the police to do whatever you wished
hi this regard? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you and your committee go back to your association
and report such a conversation? A. No, sir.
Q. And you have not told this to anybody? A. No, sir.
Q. You have to deal with licenses somewhat? A. At times.
Q. Can anybody get a license without a recommendation from
the Tammany Hall district leader? A. At times they can.
Q. How many of such are there in the city? A. That I could
not tell.
Q. Within your knowledge? A. I could not tell.
Q. You say at times-what times? A. There are some
people who get them without any trouble, and others get them
through friends and recommendations
Q Is it not true that every license has to be approved by a
Tammany Hall district leader in that Assembly distriot? A.
No, sir.
Q. It is not true? A. No, sir; it is one of the things I am
opposed to.
Q. Have you ever had patrolmen transferred? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many? A. One.
Q. Who was he? A. Peter Carter.
Q. And from  what district to what distrot? A. My own
district.
Q. He was transferred from your district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To what? A. f believe to the first.
Q. What was the reason for his transfer? A. He insulted me.
Q. He insulted you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he also arrested a liquor dealer? A. I suppose he
arrested a good many.
Q. Wasn't that the reason he was transferred? A. No, sir.
Q. Do liquor dealers come to you when they are arrested? A.
Sometimes.
Q. You go from them to the police commissioners? A. No,
sir.
Q. Who do you go to? A. I go to the court with them.
Q. What have you visited Croker for? A. The same as I
would any other man.
Q. You have gone there with committees, you say? A. At
different times.
Q. For what purpose? A. There are a thousnd and one
different reasons
Q. Yes; well, you went once to talk about your nomination to
the Constitutional Convention? A. Yes, sir.




337


Q What were the reasons for these other visits?  l Well,
there was a committee first called on Mr. Oroker some years ago
to ask him to use his influence when he was a fire commissioner
to get.the commninsioners of excise and the police to let up a
little bit on the liquor-dealers;'he was unable to do anything, as,
there wasn't anyone who represented his organization on either
board. 
Q. How has it been within the last two years; just confine
yourself to those dates; have you visited Mr. Croker on that
errand within the last two years? A. I don't believe I have;
I have had no occasion to.
Q. You have had no trouble in the last two years in regard
to those arrests? A. Very little.
Q. How many times have you been in court? A. I suppose
there has been as many arrests in the last two years as before.
Q. How many times have you been in court on them? A. I
may have been 500 times in two years
Q. Pretty near every other day? A. Pretty near.
Q. Pretty nearly a daily occurrence? A- Pretty near,
Q. Did you talk to the officers that made these arrests? A.
Sometime s
Q. And youi have not demanded the reasons for making these
arrests? A. No, sir.
Q. Haven't you attempted to direct the officers not to make
such arrests? A. I would do that, yes; do that now, and stop it
Q. And haven't you stated 'to the officers if they continued
those arrests you would have them transferred? 'A. No, sar.
Q. Haven't you done that right in the courtroom? A. No, sir.
Q. In the presence of other policemen? A. No, sir.
- Q, Now, Mr. Tekulsky, does your association keep records? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Can you produce before this committee the records showing
the appointment of committees for your association within the
last six months? A. By all means.
Q. And showing the reports of those committees? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the action of your association thereon? A. I suppose
so.
Q. Will you furnish those to the committee at their next session? A. That I can not promise; I am not the secretary.
Q. I ask you if you can furnish them? A. I can, with his
consent, and the consent of the organization.
By Chairman Lexow
Q. Who is the secretary? A. Henry Keilty.
IL       43




I. Where is his place of business? A. One Hundred and
Seventeenth street and Third avenue....... - g ----._
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. What is his business? AL Liquor business.
Q. And that is his liquor store? A. That is hs store, his
business.
Q. He has the secretary's office in the same place? A. He has
no oflice particularly; that is where he is supposed to keep the
books and he-I can not say as to that
Q. Where else may they be? A. They may be at the headquarters, No. 8 Union square..
Q. Is anybody in charge there? A. The janitor.
Q. Anybody that has access to the books? A. Nobody but
Mr. Keilty.
Q. Don't you remember making a statement more than once
that this subject of putting the police, so far as the Excise Law
was concerned, under the command of Tammany Hall ditricts,
has been discussed by you on more than one occasion? A. I
don't entirely get the drift of your question.
Q. Haven't you stated on more than one occasion, and to more
than one person, that you did visit Mr. Crokcr, and heard from
him the statement that the police captains in the several precincts would be instructed so far as the enforcement of the
Excise Law was concerned, to take their orders fronm the Tammany Hall captains? A. Positively, no.
Q. Stated it to anybody? A. No, sir.
Q. And no such thing took place? A. No; positively.
Q. And no such committee visited Mr. Oroker? A. No, sir.
Q. And your association did not resolve that they would rather
be under the police than under the Tammany captains?  A. No,
sir; you are trying to get something more than what it really
is; I am not going to tell you the minutes of our association
unless I am compelled to; I am answering every question you
ask me; I positively deny every statement.
Q. What is the true version of it? A. What do you mean?
Q. I am telling it different from what it is, you say? A. You
are trying to ask the question positively about speaking; I
spoke to many a person, but what our conversation was I corild
not tell you; but anything that you will ask me, if you get
anywhere near anything I can remember, I will answer you truly.
Q. I do not care so much about your conversation with other
people, but it is from what you have told other people?  A.
What I told other people, if you tell me anything I said, I will
answer you.




*


Q. I want to know what information they received from that
telling; I want to know what there was about putting the police,
so far as the Excise Law is concerned, under the command of the
Tammany captains? A. I am telling you that the questions you
are asking me, there is nothing in it.
Q. What is the question I should ask you to get at the fact?
A. I don't know.
Q What is the true story about that? A. About what?
Q. About the police captain being put under the command of
the Tammany captains? A. I don't know.
1Mr Sutherland-   Well, I will have to bring somebody else, then
You may cross-examine.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Nothing in it at all, is there? A. Nothing in it at all.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. One moment, do you know of any facts that you have not
testified to here, relating to the police interference with liquor
dealers in connection with elections? A. No; I don't know that
I do
Q. Do you or not know that during the last election the police
interfered with liquor dealers in this city with a view t6 inducing
them to support one or the other political party? A. No; nothing of that kind.
Q. Have you any facts in your knowledge or recollection which
would cast any light upon that subject? A. I haven't a thing;
nothing at all.
Q. Have the excise prosecutions in this city not been used as
a method of driving liquor dealers inti support of one or the
other political party? A. Positively, no.
Q. Do you know of anything in reference to that to your knowledge? A. No; I am only speaking of the members of my organization; I know nothing outside of it.
Q. How many are included in the membership of your organization? A. Somewhere in the neighborhood in the city of New
York, of about 4,000.
Q. Four thousand people that have the business of selling
liquors? A. Yes, sir; retail.
Q. And do you mean to be understood here, as stating that
the police have not on any occasion interfered with any of the
membere of your organization with a view of compelling them
to give their support to one or other of the political parties? A.
The police?, 


I     *




340


Q. Yes  AZ. No; positively not. 
Q. Or the district authorities, aided by the police? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you mean to be understood as stating thtat the excise
prosecutions have not been used for the purpoe of compellin
support politically for one party or the other? A. Positively
not; to any of the members of my association -the association
that I represent
Q. Has your experience within the past two or three years
been that those represented by your organization have been
interfered with by the district leaders of a political party? A.
No; not to my remembrance.
Q. Not at all? A. Not that I know of:
Q. Is one of the objects of your organization to protect your
members? A. It is.
Q. Against interference by district leaders or he police?  A.
It is.
Q. And to stand between the police and the members of your
organization? A. We stand between the police and any other
organization against us.
Q. That is to say, you render your services by standing between
other political influences or the police as against the members
of your organization; that is your business, isn't it? A. Ouc
business is that we shall stand by our members against other
parties.
Q. But your association has sprung into existence because of
the necessity you found of having some central power to aid
and support your members against either the district leaders
or the police in this city? A. Not at all; that was not the question at all; it was the oppression of the Republican party that,-ot us to start an organization.
Q. You mean legislation on the liquor question? A. Ye; that
is the reason that we started the organization.
Q. Now, there are about 10,000 liquor saloons in the city of
New York, are there not? A. No, air.
Q. How many? A. About 6,500.
Q. So that your organization includes all but about 2,500? A.
About all.
Q. Do you support the organizations not included in your
association? A. We haven't only one in this city, that is not
included -
Q. Any of the 2,500? A. I say there is not but one organizar
tion in the city of New York, that is, outside the Liquor Dealers'
Association, that is the Bohemian organization that does not
understand our language, and they have a separate organization
of their own, and that is on the east side; they are the only ones




nort connected with the central organization of the New York
Liquor Dealers' Association.
Q. But that organization does not include the 2,500 liquor
dealers that are not members of your association? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you support or protect any of these 2,500 other liquor
dealers that are not in your organization? A. Indirectly we do,
because what benefits one benefits all.
Q. By intervening in their behalf, when prosecutions are
brought before police justices in this city? A. Not at all; we
do not care anything about them; we do not support them at all.
Q. You do intervene in behalf of your members when prosecutions are brought in this city against members of your association in a Justice's Court? A. We do; we furnish counsel; we
turnish counsel, and try to get the best of the argument as
we can.
Q. And you say you appear about 500 times a year in proseeutions of that kind? A. Well, the question was asked me
about how many times I had been in court in the last two years;
I might have been there about 500 times.
Q. During your experience as a defender of these charges
against liquor dealers, have you found that they were arrested
as a result of political influence? A. No, sir; I do not know of
a case.
Q. Not at all? A. No, if such a case would occur, and it was
a matter of our association, they would hear from us; we have
no affiliations with any political organization.
Q. Do you know whether or not it is a fact that if a liquor
dealer in this city supports the dominant party here that he is
permitted to violate the law in reference to Sunday opening or
closing and in reference to opening his saloon after the hours
prohibited by law, and if he does not support that dominant
party he is closed? A. That is not so.
Q. Do you mean to state that as a fact? A. I state that as
a fact, as far as our members are concerned; i bother myself not
at all about other people.
Q. In other words, you do not know whether that statement
is true, with reference to other liquor dealers or not? A. I
don't know anything about that; I go to sleep nights easy about
that; it don't bother me at all.                         I
Q. Is it not a fact, within your knowledge, however, that favoritism is shown to liquor dealers, some being permitted to have
their saloons open after opening hours, and others being closed
by the police of this city? A. You mean now?
Q. I mean within the last two years? A. No, sir.
Q. Or now? A. No, sir.




5
i
i
i
1
I
i
a
i


". Thaai you fhave nof, in your experience, ihowvn-of any fa.et
of that kind? A. No, sir. 
Q. It is a fact, however, isn't it, within your experience, that
some are allowed to remain open and some are closed? A. Do
yod mean within the last two years?
Q. Yes? A. No.                                      '
Q. Are all allowed to remain open, or are all closed during
those hours in which the selling of liquor is prohibited by law?
A. Every man has to take his chances.
Q. And that implies that some are allowed to remain open and
some are closed? A. I did not say that; I did not imply anything of the kind; every man who violates the law takes a
chance; if a man is all right, he don't get caught, in every
avocation.
Q. Do you know whether they all take these chances, or only
some? A. I could not tell you; my experience is, I do not
believe there is hardly a liquor dealer in the State of New York,
outside of New York city, from  Buffalo down to Montauk
PointQ. That does not take those chances? A. Why, certainly.
Q. Is it not a fact, in your knowledge, that there are dealers
in this city who are compelled to keep closed during the tinme
prohibited by law for selling liquor? A. Positively, no; not
one person more than another.
Q. Don't you know instances when they are compelled to keep
closed? A. I do not know of one; I can not think of one.
Q. I mean keep closed during those hours when the selling of
liquor is prohibited by law? A. It is supposed every place
should be closed during the hours prohibited by law; it is sup.
posed that every place is closed.
Q. But they are not? A. Well, that is for the committee to
find out; I don't know; I sometimes keep open myself.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You have been arrested for it, too, haven't you? A. I
have been arrested for it, too; I will talk that same chance
to-morrow; the same as everybody else does.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. To-morrow is not Sunday; you mean next Sunday? A. I
don't know.
Q. Did you keep open yesterday? A. I don't know; I was not
there; I was out of town.
Q. Now, I understood you to answer the chairman of the con.
mittee that your organization was formed on account of Repub



343
lican oppressin; how long have you b'eei a metner of the
city organization? A. Oh, since 1884.
Q. How many departments of the city government have been
under Republican control since then? A. NowQ. Answer the question? A. There has not been any.
Q. Has there been any department of the city government
of New York under Republican control since you have been
in New York city? A. No, sir.
Q. You go into court solely in the city of New York? A. Oh, no.
Q. Have you represented these men outside of the city of New
York? A. Many times.
Q. How many times during. the last two years? A. Well, I
suppose about five or six times.
Q. And 500 times all told; so that 495 of tllem are cases within
the limits of the city of New York? A. Oh, by all mleans; I am
here on the ground all the time.
Q. There is where the oppression is, isn't it, in the city of New
York? A. Yes.
Q. Those are the cases you have to defend? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there is no department in the city of New York that
during the last two years has been under Republican control?
A. No.
Q. Has the law with regard to selling on Sunday changed;vithin the last two years? A. It has.
Q. How much? A. On Sundays?
Q. Yes? A. No.
Q. Has it changed since 1884? A. No.
Q. Has it changed within your memory? A. No, sir.
Q. The law has always been a saloon shall be closed on Sunday? A. Yes.
Q. Is that the principal difficulty you have with the police
about opening on Sunday? A. I do not know that we have any
difficulty.
Q. You have been 500 times in court during the last two
years in respect to what complaint? A. To go there and get
bonds for a man that is arrested for the violation of that law?'
Q. That is the particular complaint in the majority of the cases,
isn't it -the Sunday law? A. It is all Sunilm<v law, as a rule.
Q. That Sunday law has always been on the statute books so
far as your experience goes? A. It has.
Q. Neither a Republican Legislature nor a Democratic Legislature has changed i't? A. No.
Q. And the enforcement, in the main, qo far as you are con- -
celmed, relates solely to the city of New York? A. Oh, no; I
happen to cover the State of New York; I am the State president




344


Q But your presence in court, except five or six times, has
(been in the city of New York? A. That is all.
Q. And as you understand it, Tammany Ilall has control of
the police force in the city of New York? A. I do not under.
stand anything of that kind.
Q. Do you know Mr. Martin? A. I do.
Q. A personal friend of yours, isn't he? A. No, no more than
any other of the commissioners.
Q. Of course they are all your friends, are they not? A. I do.ot know as they are friends of mine.
Q. Do you call upon them frequently? A. No.
Q. Didn't you go in regard to 'these very cases to see those!commissioners? A. No.
Q. How many of the police commissioners belong to Tammany
Hall? A. I believe there is three Democrats and one Republican;
I suppose they all three belong to Tammany Hall.
Q. And when you wanted to go to the Constitutional ConVenotion, you went to Mr. Croker? A. By all means, there was no
other place to go to.
Q. Did the police differ from other people in regard to the
control of Tammany Hall?
Mr. Nicoll.-What is that, Mr. Sutherland? Don't you think,
Mr. Chairman, that is rather an irregular question? He can not
speak for the police.
Mr. Sutherland.-I will change it.
Mr. Nticoll.- Are the police different from other people? You
are going to withdraw it altogether?
Chairman Lexow.- I think it had better be withdrawn. I do
tot think it is a proper question.
Q. Have you ever mentioned these cases of arrest of the policexmen to any of the police commissioners? A. No.
Q. Not within the last two years? A. No.
Q. Have you never conversed with either of the different. comMiissioners? A. No.
Q. Within the last two years? A. In a casual way I may.have, but I do not remember anything of that kind; never
officially.
Q. To whom have you, as president, made these complaints?
A. Oh, complaints?
Q. Yes; about the arrests? A. I have never made any complaints.
Q. To nobody? A. No, sir; if a man violates the law and gets,arrested, he is entitled to be arrested; I don't care who he is.
Q. Are your duties confined simply to the defense? A. To the
defense.




345


Q. Don't you seek to obviate the future arrests? A. Do we
what?
Q. Don't you seek to obviate future arrests? A. We are trying to form some kind of plan; if we could do it, we would only
be too happy to do so; we went to the Legislature and tried to
do that. 
Q. Did you go to any official on that subject? A. Certainly
not.
Q. And that is not a subject you ever talked over with the
police commissioners? A. The only thing we ever talked over
is, we wanted to be treated fairly.
Q. Who did you talk that to? A. I talked that to any candidate that is running for office. 
Q. Talked that to the police commissioners? A. Talked it to
the police commissioners, or anybody, and would talk it to the
President of the United States, if we could get it.
Q. I asked you if you talked that to thp police commissioners?
AL. I suppose I have; I don't recollect any special time.
Q. Is it because you have done it so often that you don't remember? A. I don't meet them very often.
Q. Would it be a circumstance that would impress itself on
your mind if you   applied  to the police commissioners?
A. Officially, it would be in my mind.
Q. Do you mean to say that you can not remember a single
instance in which you have gone to the police commissioners
and made that suggestion? A. I can not say.
Q. Do you mean you can not remember? A. I have a pretty
good memory.
Q. Is it not true that you have more than once talked with
Commissioner Martin, if you please, on that subject? A. On the
subject ofQ. Of avoiding future arrests of the liquor dealers? A. Positively not
Q. Have you talked with him on the subject of'your liquor
dealers being treated fairly? A. Well, I don't believe they have
ever been treated fairly.
Q. Have you talked with him on that subject? A. I don't
know whether I have or not.
Q. Neither do I; I am waiting for you to tell me? A. I don't
know.
Q. Do you mean to say you can not remember any such
instance? A. I don't know.
Q. Would you swear that you never have talked with him
about that? A. No, I would not.
Q. Your opinion is they never have been treated fairly?
L That is my opinion.
L        44




346


Q. Haven't you stated that opinion to Mr. Martin? A. I
would state that to anybody.
Q. Haven't you stated that to him? A. Probably I might
Q. Haven't you stated it to the other police commissioners?
A. I might.
Q. Isn't it true that you have? A. I can not say.
Q. Would you swear you have not? A. No, I would not.
Q. Have you ever talked with the district leaders of Tammany
Hall on that subject? A. No, sir.
Q. Who is the leader in your district? A. Patrick Divver.,
Q. What is your district? A. Second.
Q. Is that Justice Divver? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The police justice? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did these cases ever come before him? A. Sometimes.
Q. Have you ever talked with him about that? A. Never.
Q. Never? A. Never; I do not go near him at all.
Q. Who do you go to? A. Whenever he is sitting on the
bench and there is any excise case I do not go near the court
Q. You don't go near the court? A. No.
Q. The cases do not need your attention then? A. Yes; just
as much as it does with any other judge.
Q. Why don't you go? A. Because he is in my district; that
is the reason; I do not want people to think I would have more
influen:e with him tl:an anyone else.
Q. Then you send a man? A. Oh, Iro; I don't send anybody;
I let them take care of themselves.
Q. The cases of arrests in your district go undefended as fat
as your association is concerned? A. When he is sitting on
the bench I do not go near the place at all.
Q. Is there anybody representing your association who goes?
A. I suppose there is at times.
Q. Do you recollect any such instances? A. Yes.
Q. Tell me the names of anyone who went and represented
them before Justice Divver? A. I can't remember.
Q. Have you ever talked with Mr. Croker about liquor dealers
being treated unfairly? A. I have.
Q. How many times? A. Oh, that would be impossible for me
to say.
Q. So many times you can't tell the number? A. I can't tell.
Q. Is it so many times that you can't tell? A. That is about
the size of it.
Q. And on that subject you have visited him with committees
more than once? A. Not in the past two years now; this is all.
Q. Have you talked with him at all in the last two years on
this subject? A. I don't believe I have, particularly.




347


Q. No, unparticularly? A. I don't know as I have.
Q. Do you know you have not? A. Well, now, I want to
answer that right; what is the question now?
Q. Will you answer that you have not talked with Mr. Croker
in the last two months on the subject of the oppression of the
li'quor dealers in the city of New York? A. I positively say no.
Q. On the subject of the liquor dealers being treated fairly;
have you talked with him in the last two years? A. I say no; 1
have not
Q. Have you talked with him in regard to liquor dealers
of New York city within the last two years?
Mr. Nicoll.- Haven't we been over that, Mr. Sutherland, many
times?
Mr. Sutherland.-No, sil
The Witness.-I have, yes; lots of times.
Q. And with regard to the Excise Law? A. Yes, sir.
Q, And in regard to the manner of its enforcement? A. No,
sir.
Q. With regard to the conduct of the police? A. No, sir.
Q. You say positively that you have not talked with him In
regard to the police? A. I say positively I have not, within the
last two years.
Q. Have you within the last three years? A. That is a year
more; that gives a little more play; I probably have.
Q. It is not play; it is a serious matter. A. It gives me more
latitude; that is what I mea.
Q. You can not have any latitude away from the truth; have
you in the last three years talked to Mr., roker about the conduct of the police? A. I have.
Q. When was it? A. It is over two years ago.
Q. When? A. I could not say when; it is over two years ago.
Q. Where? A. At almost any place I would meet him.
Q. How many times? A. I could not say.
Q. Hlow many, as near as you can? A. We went to see him
when he was city chamberlain.
Q. Who is "we?" A. Liquor dealers.
Q. How many of you? A. Three or four.
Q. Who were they? A. I would have to go back to the record;
I could not state exactly who was on the committee.
Q. Who was on the committee; tell me one? A. William
Pagent.
Q. Where is his place of business? A. Nineteenth street and
First avenue.
Q. Who else? A. He is the only one I can remember, because
he was the president at that time.




848


Q. You can not tell just when that was? A. Not- It is a long
time ago; it is over two years, if not over three.
Q. Is that the last time you talked with Mr. Croker on that
subject? A. Certainly not; I told you a hundred times to-day
that I have spoken to him a good many times
Q. Within the last two years? A. Well, I have spoken to
him in the last two years, but not on the subject you claim.
Q. On what subject? A. You claim on the subject of police.
Q. What subject have you talked on? A. I asked him to
suppoet legislation.
Q. What else? A. I could not tell you.
Q. Anything else but that? A. I would repeat the same
thing over again that I have.
Q. On any subject except legislation? A. Yes, sir.
Q. On what other subject? A. I suppose I spoke to him
about that liquor dealers' association as an organization that
is not a political organization; that we wanted to support the
friends-people that would treat us fairly; and when Tammany
Hall makes its nominations-did make nominations of men
who were fair and unbiased, and things like that, we are willing
to support the candidates if they do it.
Q, That all bears on the question of legislation; you know
I am after another subject; have you talked with Mr. Croker
on any other subject except the legislation connected with the
liquor dealers? A. No, sir; that is the principal thing of
legislation.
Q. If that is the principal thing, what else is there? A. Why,
temperance agitation is unprincipled so far as we are concerned.
Q. And the police have to do that, haven't they? A. They
don't have anything to do with us.
Q. Don't they make arrests? A. If they violate the law.
Q. Sometimes they make arrests when you claim a man has
not violated the law? A. I claim that now; they claim it is
a violation of the law because the place is open.
Q. And you claim the police make arrests that are in violation of the law? A. I do.
Q. Haven't you complained of that fact? A. I complain of
that now.
Q. Haven't you before that day complained of that fact?
A. I have.
Q. Haven't you complained to Mr. Croker of that fact? A. I
don't believe I ever did.
Q. Haven't you complained to the police commissioners of that
fact? A. I don't think I did; I think I complained to the district attorney one time; I might have done it a dozen time.




349


You said you have complained thousands of times of that,
to whom? A. A great many people.
Q. Who are the people? A. Really I would go a thousand
times probably to the police and police judges and state it is
aot a violation of law.
Q. What other officials have you gone to? A. To the district
attorney and explained the same thing.
Q. What other officials? A. Probably to the superintendent,
and state the same thing.
Q. What other official? A. I could not say.
Q. You have complained of this to the police judge; the distriot attorney and superintendent? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Younever made a complaint to the patrolman? A. No, sir.
Q. Or the police commissioner? A. No; not on that subject
Q. Or a captain? A. I might do that; I might say the same
thing.
Q. You have talked that way to a police captain very
frequently, have you? A. I would.
Q. You have? A. I don't say frequently; whenever we got
on the subject
Q. You have talked with them about that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have complained the law was violated by those policemen in arresting your men? A. Yes, sir.
Q. More than once? A. Yes.
Q. Repeatedly? A. Lots of times.
Q. To more than one captain? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Pretty near all of them? A. Well, I don't know them all.
Q. All that you know? A. All those I come in contact with,
yes, sir.
Q And that has continued down to the present time, hasn't
it? A. To the present time.
Q Ever since you had official connection with this organization? A. Not ever since; it is since 1872 that it is not a violation of the law to keep the place open.
Q. And you have only made these complaints in the last two
years? A. Yes, sir.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. None of the officials you complained to were able to take
your view of it? A. No, sir; I am sorry to say.
Q. When you spoke of taking your chances of being arrested
-how many saloons are there in the city of New York? A.
Over 6,000.
Q. Six thousand saloons? A. Yes, sir.




350


Q. Scattered all over the city? A. All over the city.
Q. And how many police officers are there on duty at any one
time? A. That I don't know.
Q. Haven't you calculated what the chances are of an arrest?
CA. Yes.
Q. By considering the proportion of police officers on duty to
the number of saloons? A. I have.
Q. There are about 1,500 men on duty at one time, are there
not, throughout the city?  A. Somewheres around there; I
could not say exactly.
Q. So you got about one chance in four, a saloon would have,
in getting arrested? A. Yes —one chance in 10 —if we are
careful.
Q. Your people take these chances, and get arrested, and get
prosecuted for it, don't they? A. I do.
Q. Rather than shut up? A. Yes.
Q. Are you patronized by the inhabitants of this city? A.
If we were not, we could not keep open.
Q. There is a very considerable demand for the wares that
you have to sell, isn't there, on Sunday? A. Yes, sir; if there
was no demand, there would be no supply.
Q. And so you take this chance, as you speak of, on account
of the demand by thirsty persons for beer and liquor on Sunday? A. We do.
Q. Is it not a fact that in the city of New York there is a
very large population of foreign born citizens numbering hundreds and hundreds of thousands?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who require beer or ale on Sunday?
Mr. Sutherland.-Put it "enquire" and let it go; otherwise I
object to it.
Q. Who use it, with whom it is a custom to drink; isn't that a
fact? A. Yes, sir; it is not my choice; we do not keep open from
choice.
Q. What is the German population in the city of New York, do
you know? A. Well, I think about one-quarter of the population
is German.
Q. That is, German or German descent? A. Yes, Mi.
Q. So, if the city of New York has 2,000,000 of inhabitants,
there are 500,000 people here of German or German descent?
A. If not more.
Q. And with that great company of people is the Sunday
Excise Law regarded as an invasion of their liberties?
Mr. Sutherland.-I object
Chairman Lexow.-That is ruled out; I do not think that is
proper, Mr. Nicoll. You may ask what they do, but with regard
to his opinion it is immaterial.




851


Q. Do they complain of it as an invasion of their liberties? 
Mr. Sutherland.-I object. 
Chairman Lexow.-Excluded; do not answer the question.
Q. How large a population, other than those German, that is
foreign born, are there actually in New York? A. Well, I
should judge that there would be two-fourths more of them, if
not more than that.
Q. That is, out of a population of 2,000,000 of inhabitants, we
have considerably over a million who are people of foreign birthi
or of foreign descent? A. More than three-quarters
Q. And are those the people who patronize to a great extent.
the saloons on Sunday? A. They are in the majority of the
population, and, therefore, they must be a majority of thepatrons; but the Americans like their whisky on Sunday, as well.
as the German likes his beer.
Q. What did you mean when you said you were compelled to
have this defensive organization by the oppression of the Republican party? A. I mean that by legislation, by Republican
legislation.                           ' 
Q. What legislation? A. The Republicans advocating high
license, etc.; the Republicans started in to advocate high license
as far back as 1882 or 1883, I do not remember exactly, and we
were compelled to organize for mutual protection.
Q. And that is all; your organization sprang into existence?
A. Sprang into existence on that account, and the repeal of what
is known as the " free bed" clause.
Q. Now, as I understand it, your organization is founded upon
the notion of mutual protection of its members? A. That is
right
Q. You contribute, I suppose, by your members, to a fund for
mutual protection; you mean to say you pay annual dues?
A. Yes.
Q. You hire lawyers, do you not, to represent you in the courts?
A.. Yes, sir.
Q. You pay counsel either in special cases or by general
retainer, or something of that sort? A. Yes
Q. And you appear before public men who are supposed to
have influence for the purpose of representing your views, do
you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Some of your members are Republicans, are they not?
A. Yes, a large number.
Q. A large number are Republicans? A. A large number.
Q. Some of them belong to some independent factions, Democratic factions? A. I suppose they do.
Q. And some belong to Tammany Hall? A. And some belong
to Tammany Hial.               ' 




352


B y Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Of course then if the object of the association was to
repeal the "free bed" clause, and prevent high license -  A. It
was repealed at this time in New York.
Q. Exactly; I was going to get at it; when those two objects
were accomplished, the purpose of your organization ceased?
A. Oh, no.
Q. Oh, you found there was something else to do? A. Oh,
yes.
Q. When was the "free bed" clause repealel? A. I think it
was either in 1882 or 1883.
Q. In  1882 or 1883; and in 1891 all branches of the State
government passed under the control of the Democratic party,
didn't they; the election of Governor Flower, and election of
Democratic Senate, and Democratic Assembly? A. I guess they
did.
Q. You had no fear of high license law then, did you? A. No.
Q. Then your association had not to keep up for fear of high
license? A. No.
Q. There was some other purpose that kept your association
going? A. Yes; to get an excise law passed.
Q. And that was what kept you busy going to court, was it?
A. Yes, sir.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. As a public official and a man that is posted on this business, during the last election, during the whole campaign, did
you know of any officers going into stores and demanding that
liquor dealere lake down certain bills out of their stores
representing certain candidates; do you know of any officers
doiug that during the fall campaign? A. Nothing; so far as
any member of my organization that ever occurred of that kind.
Q. It never came under your official notice? A. Never heard
of it, or they would have heard from us.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Who would have heard from you? A. The police, or anybody else that would interfere with a man's liberty.
Q. And by that you mean you would have prosecuted thelm?
A. We would; we certainly would have fought it.
Q. You have stated you had conversations with captainspolice captains-and others, with reference to a fair treatment
to the liquor dealers; what do you mean by the use of the
expression, "fair treatment of the liquor dealers?" A. I claim




353
this, that the present Excise Law does not prohibit a man from
keeping his place open, and when arrests are made because a
man has his place open for the purpose of cleaning up, or he
goes into his place, or he happens to live in the back of his
place, that an officer would come in and arrest a man because
he is on the premises, I say he is wrong, and it is not the law.
Q. In other words, according to your construction, the police
had unfairly construed the law; is that it? A. I suppose that
is the way to put it.
Q. And by using that construction of the law for the purpose
of oppressing the members of your association? A. Oh, no; I
don't think so; I think it is done more to-for records, that the
liquor dealers are being arrested; the liquor dealer, as a rule,
is the "marker" for everybody.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You are a very intelligent man? A. Yes.
Q. You know what the meaning of mental reservarton is, don't
you? A. Well, yes.
E. N. Trillard, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified
as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you live? A. Two hundred and fifty-three
Fourth avenue.
Q. And what is your business? A. Merchant tailor.
Q. Were you a Republican inspector of elections at the last
election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And at what voting place? L    The first election of tha
Twelfth Assembly.
Q. Whereabouts is that? A. Two hundred and thirty-eight
Third avenue.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. The Twelfth Assembly district? A. Yes.
By Mr. Sutherland:.Q. You know Mr. J. Augustus Johnson? A. Yes, sir, I met
him there.
Q. Was he a Republican inspector there that day? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. You were there all day as an inspector of election? A.
Yes.
Q. Did Mr. Johnson make objections there to violations of law?
A. He did.
Q You may state what you saw and heard in that respect?
A. He objected first off; we had a man come in there who was
L-       45




7   t


354
iunder the influence of liquor when he was inside the polling
place, and I asked the officer to remove him, and the officer did
not remove him at all.
Q. Who was this officer? A. I think the number was 212, if I
am not mistaken; I do not know his name; the other inspectors
did not object, until finally the objection was so strong that the
ohairman of the board ordered him out also; but he did not take
[hJi!m1 out o0f the polling place at all, until he went of his own
accord.
Q. The officer did not take him out? A. No, sir.
Q. Now, what was the next thing you saw that day? A.. Mr.
Johnson challenged three men when they came to vote as having
been voted upon; and there were some other men who had voted
on these people's names before they came; those were the challenges Mr. Johnson made.
Q. What occurred in regard to those challenges? A. Their
votes were sworn in.
Q. What did you say cr do? A. I accepted the votes.
Q. Where were the policemen at that time? A. In the polling
place.
Q. Who were the other members of the board of inspectors?. George McHugh and James Ennlis.
Q. Now, the objection to this was that other men had voted
on those names? A. They had; our books showed that to be a
fact
Q. And were those men who came in and swore in those votes
the bona fide owners of those names? A. So far as I know I am
pretty sure they were.
I Q. Had any objection been raised when other people came in
to vote on those names? A. No, sir.
Q. What was the next irregularity you saw? A. Canvassing
within the limits of the polling place.
Q. Tell us what there was about that? A. Mr. Johnson
objected to it, but no attention was paid tb it
Q. No attention was paid by whom? A. By the Democratic
workers in that district.
Q. Did he appeal to the officer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you make any protest against it? A. I dide
Q. To whom did you protest? A. The policeman.
Q. Did the policemen object, either of them? A. No, sir.
Q. Did the policemen know you were one of the inspectors of
election? A. Yes, sir.
0. You sat alomn, three in a row? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you sit; at the center or one of the ends? AA At
one of the ends.


I 




355
Q. To the right or left? A. To the left
t. -Xho was mi the center? A. Tue other inspector, Einli. 
Q. Was he the chairman of the board? A. No, sir; he was
at the other end.
Q. Who was in the center? A. We were so fixed we were not
in a row; we were in a triangular shape.
Q. Who was the chairman of the board? A. Mr. McHugh.
Q. Did the chairman of the board answer for the board, or did
all three talk? A. Well, three of us talked.
Q. When you objected to the presence of these workers within
the 150-feet limit, right within the polling place itself, who
replied to your objection? A. Nobody especially and everybody 
in general, if I night put it that way.
Q. Did the two inspectors of election make a reply? A. After
a while the chairman did.
Q. What did he say about it? A. He told him to go outside
the door.
Q. Did they go? A. They did.
Q. Did they come back? A. They came back in the afternoon.
Q. And stayed there the rest of the afternoon? A. Yes, sir,
Q. Did the policemen put any of those men out? A. No, sir,
Q. Did you ask him to? A. No, sir; he said he would, and
then talked with them and did not.
Q. Did Mr. Johnson finally appeal to you at any time? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. With regard to the general conduct of things? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what reply did you make to him? A. I told him I had
gone so far as I could go, and could not go any farther than 
had gone.
Q. That was true, was it?. Yes, sir.
No cross-examination.
Philip Loewenthal, called as a witness, being duly sworn,
testified as follows:
Crossexamination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Two hundred and thirty-four
East Seventy-fifth street
Q. Two hundred and four East Seventy-fifth street? A. Two
hundred and thirty-four.
Q. What is your business? A. Clerk.
Q. You were at one time a member of the police force of the
city of New York? A. Yes, sir.
Q.,For how many years? A. Four or five years.
Q. And until what year? A. I will give you the date; I have
It here in my pocket.




86


By Cvharman Lexow:
Q. On't you remember about the date, Mr. Ioewenthal? A. I
can give you both my appointmentBy Mr. Sutherland:
Q. No, just give your remembrance? W. I joined tt on the
15th of February, 1858; I left with the Twelfth regiment of New
York in full police uniform at the call of Lincoln for 75,000 men.
Q. That was in 1861? A. Exactly; on my return my appointment and pay commenced on the very day in the latter part of
1861, on my return to New York on the force again, until the
day that Abraham Wakeman became postmaster of New York,
when I resigned.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Let us find out when Abrahnm Wakeman was postmaster
of New York? A. That was in 1862.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Answer my questions; you have been for a.numlier of years
inspector of elections in your district? A. Since the second
eletion of Abraham Lincoln. 
Q. Invariably?  A. Invariably, except in  one to  three
exoeptiona
Q. In the fall of 1892, you acted as presiding officer of the
board of inspectors of the district? A. I did.
Q. Wibat election district is that? A. Fifth of the Twentysecnd.
Q. Twenty-second Assembly district; did there come a time
when the poll-box was closed? A. Sir?
Q. Did any occurrence happen which caused you to close the
polls for a while? A. Yes, sir.
Q Tell us what it was that happened.
The Chairma — When?
Mr. NiooL-Eighteen hundred and sixty-:woa
Mr. Sutherland. —No, 1892.
The Witness.-I was, against my will, chairman of the board;
I being a Republican and the other two being Democrats I
thought the chairmanmnhip belonged to them; they insisted on
account of the extra labor that the chairmanship imposes in
arrying the election returns to the station-house, and the
reglatration every night to the station-house, they did not want
til do that, and I had to take it; I told them at once that if I am




357


chairman that I would like to run the thing fairly, and that r
would try to stop anything that was illegal; one man disfranchised himself by illegal processes; we all united on it that that
man was not entitled to vote by his action; the two Democrats
were the ones that said so first; the man disappeared in an
illegal way, carrying the ballots with him in spite of my trying
to stop him; after he was outside, he took the ballots-there
were 13 ballots at that time, if you recollect - and he took and
made a ball of some of them, and he fired them at us when we
demanded when he went out that he should leave the ballots
at that place, and he fired seemingly a ball of ballots; and afterward he came back and shook the ballots.at us and said, we
have got them anyhow; we were unanimous that that man
disqualified himself for voting; two hours after that a policeman brought this man back.
Q. Who was the policeman? A. Well, I don't know.
Q. Do you remember his number? A. I don't remember his
number; I heard him addressed as Mr. Meenie; he brought him
back, and said, to put his ballots there; "This man can not vote."
Q. Who said that? A. I said that; <"Well, I am going to vote
him anyhow."
Q. Who said that? A. Mr. Meenie.               '
Q. The policeman? A. Yes; I said, "Mr. Policeman, don't
you know that you are here to preserve the law?" says he,
"Well, I am going to vote this man;" I said, "Mr. Policeman, you
are here to preserve the law; you are not running this thing;
the loard of inspectors are running this thing;" says he, "I
will show you I am running this thing; this man is going to vote,
or I will know the reason why;" "Do you want to know the
reason why? you do know the reason why, and if you do want
to know it again, he has disqualified himself, he has taken off,
inside of 15 minutes, he has taken up three-quarters of an hour;
he was in and out of the booth, being instructed each time what
to do, fully seven or eight times, staying long enough in there.
and he had disqualified himself by carrying off the ballots and
destroying the ballots."
Q. Now, by the way, let me interrupt you just a moment; when
this man went out with those ballots did you call up the officer
to arrest him? A. I told him to arrest him; why, certaiLly.
Q. Was it the same officer that you told tc arrest him that
finally brought him back? A. I told the officer to arrest him,
and they said, 'Let him go;" and the man came back, and after
the officer had said, "Let him go," and after awhile the man
oame back.
Q. Was it one of those same officers that brought him back




/


858
to rote? A. One of the same officers that was detlaiPed1 for the
polling place; I had as much as I could do to prevent one of the
inspectors doing something illegal himself, because I had co
watch him pretty close; one of them-the two inspectors that
were with me; one of them was very square, the squarest Democrat, in fact, I ever met in my life; the other one, by the name of
Crosier, was a nonresident, a fellow who comes here nearly every
year from Chicago for election purposes, as he told me himself.
Q. When this policeman said he was going to run that thing
and vote the man anyhow, what did you do? A. I stood mn the
way; I told the ballot clerk, "No ballots for this man;" sa the
policeman struck me. on the shoulder, and said, "Thiis ma: will
vote."
Q. The policeman struck you? A. Struck me.
Q. The same policeman that brought in this voter? A. Exactly;
I placed my hand on the ballot-box, and I said, "I declare this
election closed until this blue-coated officer is removed from this
office; marshal, arrest this interrupter." 
Q. What did Mr. Galen, the other member of the board, say?
A. Mr. Galen was studying the law; Mr. Orosier called the officer
over, and the officer handed the paper to Crosier.
Q. Handed what paper? A. The ballots.
Q. The tickets this man had? A. That the man had; he
handed them over to Crosier, and Crosier turned to me and said,
"See, Mr. Loewenthal, those tickets are all right; they have thz
whole 13 now;" I said, "That makes not the least difference;
this man can not vote."
Q. What did Mr. Galen say after he studied the law? A. He
kept his nose down pretty near the book, until finally I said,
"Well, Mr. Galen?" Mr. Galen came over and said, "Now, Me.
Meenie," - that is where I heard the name - " Now, Mr. Meenie,
this has gone far enough; you have got to apologize to MrI Loewenthal, else I will decide with him that the election is stopped."
0. Did he say anything about wearing a checked suit? A.
Yes.
0. What was it?  A. Yes, he did say somethin..
Q. What was it he said? A. Well, he said: "$36, and I am
worth that much: that is already in mv business, and for $36 I
am not Lroing to wear a striped suit, eyen for the party."
Q. Did the policeman say anything to Galen about that? K
A hmint wbThat?
Q. About his conduct? A. Not Mr. Galen.
C0 rA4 thle rolieoman make anv renlv to CTalf? A. Well,
he told him, "Well, if you say so:" Galaen says, "Certainly I say
so," so they let the man go off; and he wanted me to go on with




859


the eleeftlon; T said no; this don't end it; I want you away fromhere; you are not to be here; I want the mairshal; and I kept
s~houting for the marshal; and he- says, "1Now, Jon't make a f uss
over that,"l he says, "1I am trying to help my party just the samie
way as, you try to help yours;" and he apologized, and they all
camne around me.
Q. And you all continued? A. Thepeo~ple wanted to vd!e, and
I let -them vote.
By Senator Bradley:
q.You opened the polls again.? MA..Oh, yes.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll
Q.How long a time were the polls closed in conseque~nce of
this action of yours? A-. Between 15 and 20 minutes; I wish
to state here what I forgot to statle, that I told Mr. Galem at the
time, I said, "I can afford,, as a Republican, to have this district~
thrown out, as it is more than 60 per cent. IDemocratic, to less
that 40 per cent. Re~publican, for the sake of one' illegal vote;
it yo u*can afford to break it up, I can afford it -too."
Q. What district was it? A. Fifth, of thor~ Twenty-second.
Q. Where was it? A. In Second avenue, betwveen Seventy.
fourth and Seventy-fifth streets.
Q. What was the na~me of the gentleman who took so much
time in preparing his ballots?, A. There was no genhteman
there; it was a loafer.
Q. What was the name of the loafer that took so much time
In preparing the ballots"; I would not have been permitted to
ask that question if you had not suggested it; has Mr. -Sutherland got his name? A. The gentleman that subpoenaed me;
I'told him that if he pleased to get the book from thes election
bureau where it is kept, there are the minutes in it, because I
compelled each and every one of the election officers to make
notes of those things.
Q. Possibly you don't recollect it -now? A. The name I. do
not recollect..Q. Very well, let it go; do you recollect when the, man 'in;question applied to the ballot clerk for his ballot; did you scAhim then? A. In the first instance?
Q.Yes? A. Yes, sir.
Q.Were there a. fail set of ballots given hfim? A.. Yes; the
isame sa Pe'leiybody else.
-0. And when he had received them, what did he do with
&ken? A. He was shown into a box.
~.Into a booth? A. Yes, sir.
Q.And he remained there preparing, 14l ballotq? W. He




860


came out very rpidly, very rapidly with the ballot in his hand,
a big paster on top of it, and he handed me that and said,
"That is what I vote."
Q. Was it the fact, when he came out his ballots were not
prepared according to law? A. They were not prepared according to law; they were not folded properly; I then told him,
"You have been shown how to fold this ballot; you have got
to bring it right up to the perforated line, and then close it
together, and then bring it in, and I will accept it; and you must
bring the other ballots from there all folded in the same way."
Q. Did he come back again? A. He went back and came out
Q. Had he them folded right? A. He had that folded right
and the other ones folded right, except instead of each one separate, he had them all folded together-the 12 ballots folded
together in one bunch, just as they ought to be single, and he
handed me that; I then sent him back again, and I told him
each ballot must be folded separately.
Q. Did he go back and fold them separately? A. He went
in, and came out and brought me the one ballot out, and he told
me, "Let somebody else fold them."
Q. Fold the others? A. Yes; "I am not getting paid for that;
I am only getting paid for voting this way."
Q. Did he fold that himself? A. No; I sent him back then,
and I told him I did not care what he got paid for, he had to go
back and bring me the other ballots out, and he must fold each
one separate; and each of the other inspectors also instructed
him; and I want to call your attention to it, that we were not
very particular about the time limit, either, because he had overstayed his time by that time already; he went in again and
stayed in quite a while, and he came out and says, "You take
this ballot and I will come back by and by and will fold the
others."
Q. Didn't you say something prior to that time to him in a
very irritable and angry tone, sir? A. No.
Q. Were you mild and polite and gentle? A. Just as polite
as I am at present; I think I am very polite at present.
Q. Did he say anything then? A. Yes; I want to call your
attention, that it would not do otherwise in that neighborhood
if you wanted to have a whole head.
Q. Were you not, as a matter of fact, very naturally impatient
with him? A. Oh, no; well, I found I could not work him, and
I turned him over to Mr. Galen, and he worked at him until he
got out of patience, and then Mr. Crozier got to work with him.
Q. And he got out of patience? A. No; he didn't get out of
patience; I attended to half a dozen other voters that came out




3C1


of the other booths, and I told him, said I, "When that fellow
is ready, just hand me the ballot."
Q. He had more difficulty than is usual in even the most ignorant voter folding his ballot? A. It was not ignorance in him.
Q. What was it? A. Pure cussedness.
Q. And was it on account of his pure cussedness that you
threw him out entirely? A. No; we did not throw him out
Q. He went out? A. When I was very busy he wanted to
go out and see his friends to get them to fold it in the way I
wanted; I told him he could not get out; I said, "You go back
to your box and the others will show you, and everybody inside
pretty near had a hand in showing him what to do."
Q. You told him, and the other Democratic inspectors and
poll clerks and ballot clerks? A. The ballot clerk gave him
the first instructions, and gave him a sample ballot; but some of
the men in thereQ. Watchers; were there watchers there or marshals? A.
One of the marshals there gave me instructions; it was pure
oussedness, as I said before; he did not want to do it, because
it would be right; he would rather do the thing wrong than
right; so when I was busy twice or three times he attempted to
go outside with the ballot, and I stopped him; as I stood right
by the-between the ballot-I will illustrate.
Q. Illustrate it, please? A. There is where I stood, and there
is the little bar.
Q. A little bar? A. A little bar that had to be laid over.
Q. Into the booth, you mean? A. There was a liitle guard-rail
like  this (illustrating  with  his cane) that you  could
lift up; and whenever the booths were full we put that down;
and just when we were busy he came and wanted to go out; I
stopped him, but while I was putting in the ballot of one of the
voters and handing the unvoted ballots to the other inspector,
Mr. Crozier, Mr. Galen was standing looking up the law in regard
to this man overdoing this timeQ. I understood you that before? A. This was a different
time.
Q. Did Galen spend all the time in studying the law? A. He
was studying the law most assiduously.
Q. What was the man from Chicago doing? A. He was puttina in the unvoted ballots.
Q. He was putting in the ballots, while Galen was looking un
the law? A. Yes; he was looking up the law.
0. Go on from that point? A. Suddenly this man made the
rush to go out, and I said, "Policeman, stop this man," and the
policeman did stop him; I said, "I want those ballots; don't let
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this man out without the ballots; " and the man took the ballots
and fired them.
Q. You have told the whole story, haven't you? A. I presume so.
Q. Is there anything left unsaid that a question of mine might
suggest possible, anything that occurs to you now? A. Nothing
at all; all I want to tell was the action of the policemen.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did you ask any policeman to arrest this man for an open
violation of the law? A. No, sir.
Q. You did not? A. I told the policeman to bring the man
back-because he had the-as soon as I ascertained that he
had taken some of the ballots out, I told him to take this man
back and we wanted the unvoted ballots.
Q. You didn't request any policeman or officers to arrest this
man, although he was violating the law, and obstructing voters?
A. No, sir; I did not ask the same; and I will tell youQ. That is all; you did not ask the policeman to arrest the
policeman, when the policeman struck you? A. It was no use
to ask the policeman to arrest voters, because he was constantly
violating the l,aw by handing pasters, by making themselves
obnoxious, and electioneering in the place; I was in a peculiar
position there, having a majority of the board against me, as
was in every district, and trying to govern myself so that I would
give no occasion to leave the place there without at least the pro-.tection which my presence gave in the Republican party; now,
the policeman was a violator from the minute he struck there
in the morning; and I certainly would not ask the policeman to
arrest a man who violated it less than he did himself.
William P. Richard, called as a witness, being duly sworn,
testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside?   A. One hundred and nineteen
Eighth avenue.
Q. What is your business? A. Shoe deqaer.
Q. Where is your place of business? A. In Eighth avenue,
near One Hundred and Forty-ninth.
Q. And was that in the election district wherein Mr. Bahan
was a candidate for Assembly last fall? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is the Ninth Assembly district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was your name signed to the petition for his independent
Pomination? A. Yes, sir.




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T   T Dd anybody visit you on thiat subject afterward? X
Ies, sir; I was visited twice on that subject.,Q. What days?
Chairman Lexow.-Speak up, so we can hear you
Q. Visited twice in regard to his nomination? A. I do not
remember the day,
Q. How long after you signed the petition? A. About a week
after.
Q. Who came to see you about it? tA A saloon keeper in
Seventeenth street, and another party, and asked me to withdraw my signature from that
Q. Asked you to take your name off? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long was it after the first visit before the second party
ame? A. The next morning about half-past 7.
Q. Who was the second party? A. I don't know him.
Q. Anything happen that same day after the second visit?
A. I told him I did not know anything about this candidate
they had sprung on me a few days before; I did not want to sign
or indorse, sign this indorsement.
Q. This second visitor came and asked you to take your name
off Bahan's certificate? A. Yes, and' signed McDermott's
certificate.
Q. Where were your showcases at that time? A. On the
sidewalk.
Q. Did anybody visit you in regard to them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long after the second visitor came there? A. About
10 minutes.
Q. Who visited you then? A. An officer.
Q. What did he say to you? A. He said to draw my showcases inside, it was against the law.
Q. To draw your showcases inside? A. Yes, sir.
By Senator Bradley: 
Q. You say he asked you to sign, McDermott's certificate?
[e. Yes.
Q. I thought McDermot got the regular Democratic nomination? A. Yes, but there was an indorsement by the business
men, as I understood.
Q. It was merely a recommendation to vote for him? A. No.
Q. He was not the same as the other gentleman? A. No.
Q. He also asked you to withdraw from Bahan'a certificate?
A yes, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Who asked you to sign Balian's certifioate? X Bahlanhimself.






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Q.What did you say about it bein'g sp-rung on you? A. T'his
llcDermott nomination; I didn't know anything about the
g~en tleina-n.
Q.You were a friend of Mr. Bahan's, were you? A. 1 know
Mr. Balian; I aim not a friend of his; I believe he is a gentleman4
and an honeist man.
Q. You were interested in his candidacy, were you? A. No,
Bill..
Q. I say you were interested in his candidacy? W. That far
Iwas.
Q. Interested in ha-ving him a candidate for office? A. Yes,
Proceeedings of the seventh meeting of the committee, Friday,
March 30, 1894, at 10:30 a. m.
Present.-Senators, Clairence Lexow, Daniel Bradley, Geo-ree W.
lRobertson, Edmund O'Connor and Jacob A. Cantor.
Appearances as before.
John Lafond, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified
as follows:
Direct examination by Mr; Sutherland&.
Q.Where do you reside? A. Two hundred and fifty-one
Spring street.
Q. And what is your business? A. Shoemaker.
Q. Always lived in New York? A. Yes, sir.
'Q. Where do you vote? A. Where do I vote?
Q. Yes. A. One hundred and seventy-four Varick street.
Q. And what election district and what Assembly district??A
Seventh election, district, Eighth Assembly di-strict, at present.
Q. Did you vote there last year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. 'What time in the day? A. Well, I voted early, sir-; about
8 o'clock in the morning.
Q. Did you see a policeman there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What wa~s his name? A. Theodore Snyder.
Q.Do you know his number? A. No, sir; Mr. Conklin took
the number; I did not pay any attention.
Q. IDid you have any official relation with that election? A.. I
hmadn-'t much this last election; 1892 we had an altercation.
Q. What was your office in 1892? A. Captain of the district,
challenger and watcher.
Q. And you had a challenger's certificate? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What officer was in attendance 'that year? A. The same
Q. What time did you vote that morning? A. Well, I d~idn't
zct hI. to To'teC* b wUUtI.A WZ 4 1 &2O a LIZ,




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Q. What was the reason you didn't get in? A. About 7 o'clock
in the morning, after talking to the T'ammany Hall captain, this
Snyder came to me; I was standing outside the rail; he said,
"What are you doing here?" "I am a challenger," said I, and he
said, "You have no reason for being in here; get out of here;"
I said, "Here is the paper for my authority;" and he said, "Get
out of here; that does not signify to-night;" I thought his object
was to lock me up, and I got out. 
Q. What time did you get back? A. When Mr. Conklin came;
about 2 o'clock in the afternoon.
Q. Then what occurred? A. Well, he went in and told them
to let me stay there, and told them they violated the law, and
came back in the afternoon or at night and took his number, and
said he would have something to say about it..Q. And by his persuasion you were put back? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see anything else of the conduct of the police on
that day? A~  Well, they just left the Tammany Hall man do as
he pleased.
Q. Tell the committee what it was? A. I seen him at the
last election; I seen him take men-a fireman particularly -
that came up after he gave his name and took his tickets -took
him by the collar and dragged him out
Q. Who dragged him out? A. A fireman by the name of Lucat.
Q. Who was the man he dragged out? A. I ean not c1ll; I
forget his name.
Q. What did the policeman do or say? A. He let it passi  I
made a protest against it, and the inspector of election threatened to have this Lucas locked up if he did it again.
Q. But did not interfere with taking him out that time? AL
No, sir.
Q. What else did you see the policeman do there? A. Well.
one of them stopped -outside at the last election; one of them
stopped outside, and took no interest in the - when I challenged
a voter he was outside, and I called him in to arrest the voter;
he swore his vote in, and when he was coming in Lucas came
and got a man and went to punch him at the polling place door,
and they never interfered.
Q. When you called the policeman to arrest this voter, this
Lucas came up and caught the voter? A. No; a man that was
standing outside that called the policeman inside.
Q. And he assaulted him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What policeman was by at that time? A. Snyder, and
another officer; I don't know his name.
Q. Neither of them  interfered to protect this man? A.
Neither.




;860
Q. What elie id yon see the policeman doing? A. Well, sir,
'i  h is hard to tell what they didn't do.
Q. Tell the committee whtt they didn't do? A. They let
them carry on-,
Mr. Nicoli.-Don't you think you ought to confine it to some
arrest?
Mr. Sutherland. — I am talking about the last election.
The Witness- It was the last election of 1893 I am talking
of that they committed these things; I could not see anything
in 1892 because they put me out and would not let me in and
attacked me when I went to vote.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You got back at 2 o'clock in 1892? A. Yes; well, I could
see nothing; the election was over there then when I got in.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Now we will talk about 1893 again; tell us wKat you saw
the police do or permit in their presence? A. I see them permit
men go out with their ballots after they got them right across
the street to the Tammany Hall captain.; Q. Did you object to that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you speak to the police about it? A. No, sir; I spoke:to the captain that he is not to let the men in again and they
could not vote; nevertheless, they let them vote after taking
their tickets outside.
Q. Did you see the police interfere with anybtody, any voters?
AI. No, sir; the reason of their not interfering {he last election,
Mr. Conklin went around toMr. Nicoll.-I object to that, Mr. Chairman.
Q. I am only asking what you saw yourself; did you see the
policeman giving directions to the voters? A. No, sir; I did
not see them interfering.
Q. Or about going into the booth? A. This officer, Mlr. Chairman, told me Mr. Conklin had been around to the captain and
cautioned him not to interfere with me in 1893.
Q. Did you see the policeman send voters back into the booth
for a pencil or anything of that sort? A. No, sir; they did not
interfere.
Q. They did not interfere at all? A. No, sir.
Q. They simply stood by and let the things go on? A. Stood
by and let the things transpire.
Q. Did you see any other irregular transactions? A. I saw
the ballot clerk throw over pasters into the booths.


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Q. Where was the policeman? A. Abouf as far as that
corner.
Q. How far was you from the ballot clerk? A. As far as tha
gentleman there.
Q. The stenographer? A. Yes.
Q. Ten or 12 feet? A. About 10 feet off.
Q. And did the ballot clerk do that more than once? A. No;
I only seen him once; I was out a good deal.
Q. At the time you saw that did you call the attention of the
policeman to it? A. No, sir; I did not; I called the attention
of the inspector of election-the chairman.
Q. What did he say? A. He said that was nothing. 
Q. Did you call the attention of the inspector of elections in
a loud enough tone of voice so the policeman could hear? A,
Yes, sir.
Cros-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What do you say your business was? A. Shoemaker.
Q. How long have you lived at 251 Spring street? A. Eight
years.
Q. And how long have you lived in the oity of New York?
A. Thirty-five or 36 years.
Qo You were not born here, were (you? A. No, sir.
Q Where were you born? A I was born in the north of
Ireland.
Q. Have you always been a Republican?   A. Always, sir,
since I —
Q. Since you first voted? A. Since I got my naturalization
papers.
Q. Have you always been active in politics? A. Well, pretty
much so.
Q. Pretty much so? A. Yes
Q. You acted, I understand you to say, in 1892-,'. Yes
Q. As a watcher at the polls? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Before you undertook to act as watcher, did you familiarize yourself with the duties of the position? A I have been
so long by the polls that I was quite familiar with it
Q. You recollect that some years ago we changed the laws
relating to the elections in this city, and the method of voting
do you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you familiarize yourself with the new laws on the
subject? A. Yes; I have read them.
Q. Did you read them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you read them so far that you informed yourself as




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to the duties of inspectors of elections? A. Well, yes, sir; I
served as inspector.
Q. And you have also served as watcher, haven't you? A.
tYes, sir.
Q. Well, you know that the election in any election district
is entirely in charge of the inspectors of election, don't you?. A.
I know that, sir.
Q. That, under the statute, they are required to enforce the
laws relating to elections? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is so, is it not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They are required to take note of violation of the law?
W. yes.
Chairman Lexow.-Are you making an expert of this witness,
fMr. Nicoll? I think we have the election laws.
Mfr. NicolL-Is there any objection to my asking the question?
Chairman Lexow.-Is it necessary to prove the law by this
witness?
Mr. Nicoll.-This is a mere foundation, of course, for something that is coming afterward; it is not necessary to prove
the law by this witness. Do you object to the last question?
Chairman Lexow.-We simply want to limit the extent of
this examination as far as possible.
Mr. Nicoll.-If you object to such a casual cross-examination
as this, why, if the committee says so, I will refrain.
Chairman Lexow.-It took about half an hour, I believe, to
prove the law by another witness. I do not see why you should
prove it by another witness.
Mr. Nicoll.-I do not believe I have taken half an hour for the
cross-examination of any witness during the whole time.
Chairman Lexow. —Iy recollection is otherwise.
Mr. Nicoll.-We may perhaps save considerable time, Mr.
Chairman, by clearing up what I think is a very confused notion
in the minds of a number of people, as to the exact duty of the
police officers at the polls at the time of election. Now, their
rights and duties and relations to inspectors, to watchers and io
electors have all been considered by the courts, interpreting the
general statutes relating to the same. Your honor is probably
familiar with those decisions. They do not justify, it seems to
me, the interpretation which has been put upon the duties of the
police, relating to making arrests without charges being made
at the time of an election. The police are at the polls merely as
the servants, we may say, of the inspectors of election, for the
purpose of preserving order; their position is a very delicate one.
Chairman Lexow.-You mean to take the position, Mr. Nicoll,
that a crime may be committed in the actual sight of the officer




369


so that the offender may aid or abet in the commission of the
crime against the suffrage? 
Mr. Nicoll.-Certainly not.
Chairman Lexow. ---And that the officers can not be criticised?
Mr. Nicoll.-Certainly not. I was about to say that, of course
where a felony is openly committed in the presence of the officer.
it would be the officers duty, without charge being made, to
make an arrest. That I concede must be the law; but you will
see that there is a border line of action between discovery of a
felony, that.is, discovery of satisfactory evidence of a felony, and
the mere omission on the part of an officer or inaction on his
part, which, if he acted, might be considered as an evasion of tile
right of the voter, and as an abridgment of the rights of the
electors.
Chairman Lexow.-There is no doubt about that.
Mr. Nicoll.-And very much of the evidence which we have
taken here consists of merely doubtful or suspicious circumstances which would hardly have justified a police officer
selected for the purpose of keeping order at the polls, in making
arrests unless some elector had charged the alleged violator of
the law, or the inspector of elections had to do so.
Chairman Lexow.- It is not for me to anticipate the judgment
of the committee on the facts that have been proven here; but
It seems to me that very little of the testimony that has been
taken here is open to that criticism on your part. On the contrary, the large bulk of it shows a violation of duty on the part
of the police. Now, your position is made very clear. You want
to prove the law. That witness is not competent to prove the
law on that subject. The law is in the statute books, and, therefore, we would rather have you continue some other branch of.
the inquiry.
Mr. Sutherland.-And before the committee continues tliit
I protest against the inference he puts upon the evidence already
produced. This witness testified the ballot clerk threw pasters
over into the booth to the voter. It can not be possible that any
man reading that testimony would say that it was not the duty
of the policeman immediately to arrest that ballot clerk without
an orlder or command from any living man except the order and
command that is on the statutes of the State of New York.
Mr. Nicoll.-I think it is. I think it was the duty of the
Inspector to direct the arrest of the ballot clerk.
Chairman Lexow.-Where lawyers disagree upon a subject of
this kind certainly a layman should not be called as an cxpert
witness on that subject; and hence the testimony on the point by
a witness now under examination is absolutely inadmissible.
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Mr. Nicoll.- I agree with the chairman in that regard now that
I have been permitted to define my position- I did not care to
address the committee for the purpose of making a speech on that
proposition. I thought it proper to bring it out on the examination of the witness, but as that has been cleared up I will take
up another branch of the examination
Q. I understand you to say in 1893 there was no interference
on the part of the police with any elector? A. None with me.
Q. With anybody? A. Well, one of them stood behind and
took part anyhow; and the other one was outside the door most
of the time electioneering.
Q. There were two policemen at the polls? A. Yes, sir; in
1S93.
Q. And two policemen ther4 in 1892? A. No, sir; only one in
1892, when I was put out.
Q. Was there not one inside and one outside? A. No, sir; he
was inside; and came to me without any annoyance, and without
any trouble being in the booth or anything else, and said, "What
are you doing here;" I said, "I am a watcher and challenger;'
he said, " Get out of here;" I offered him my papers, and he said,
"That don't make any difference," and I did not say anything;
that took place in the place until 2 o'clock, when Mr. Conklin
let me in.
Q. Of course you were not there? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have any altercation with this police officer, Mr.
Snyder? A. No, sir; two years before he was a great friend of
mine and was a Republican; and when I was supervisor he
thought I was a first-class man, but in 1892 I was a very different
man.
Q. That was in 1892, when you were supervisor of the polls?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. He apparently changed his political sympathies in 1892?
A. Yes, sir; and a good many more.
Q. Sir? A. A good many more changes too.
Mr. Sutherland.-A good many others have, he says, the
reason for which is quite obvious
Q. All your experience in 1892 was confirmed to this ejection
by Mr. Snyder, wasn't it? A. Yes, sir; I could not say what
happened-I could see in talking to voters outside before they
went into the poll, but I could not tell by being outside; Mr.
Nicoll, when I was first put out there were 15 votes polled, and
when I again went in there were 125.
Q. That was in 1892? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now in 1893 Mr. Conklin was at the polls all day? A. No;
I did not say so.




371


Q. Was he there part of the time? A. Not in 1893; in 1892,
he was twice there.                                 '
Q. In 1893 was he there? A. No, sir; they told me he had
called on Captain McCullough, and I believe he called on you
as district attorney.
Q. In 1893? A. No; in 1892.
Q. Did you make any complaint to the captain of the precinct about the attack of Snyder ejecting you?  A. I was
assaulted in coming out; I had on a small badge and when I was
passing the eighth election district three or four rowdies stood
there with one of the officers, and one of them grabbed the
badge and stamped it under foot, and I said to the policeman,
Do you see how he insulted me?" he said, "That isn't any
insult"
Q. Did you make any complaint to the captain? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you make any complaint to the superintendent of
police? A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Or the commissioner of police, of this conduct? A. I did
not
Q. Now, in 1893, did you make any complaint with regard
to the conduct of this officer to the captain? A. No, sir; I
made it to the chairman of the board of inspectors, that is all.
Q. Did you make it to his superior officer? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you make it to the inspector of that district? A. No,
sir; I did not.
Q. Or to the superintendent of police? A:. No, sir.
Q. Or to the commissioners of police? A. No, sir; I reported
to Mr. Conklin; I thought he was the proper party to report it.
Q. You did not write a letter to any one of those officials
complaining of the conduct of these officers?  A.No, sir; I
reported to Mr. Conklin, and left it in his hands.
Q. If there was any neglect to complain of the misconduct
of the officers it was not yours, but Mr. Conklin's? A. Why, of
course; I say I told him, and thought he would look after it.
Q. Did you ask him to make the complaint? A. No, sir; I
simply told him about it, and left it to his own judgment and
thought he would know more about it than I did.
Q. Didn't you request him to make complaint to the superior
officer of this officer? A. I left it to Mr. Conklin as I thought
he would know what proceedings to take.
Thomas E. Flannery, called as a witness, being duly sworin
testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Thirty Perry street.
Q What is your business? A. Liquor business.




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Q. Where is your place of business? A. Three hundred and
eighty-five Bleecker street.
Q. Where was your place of business in July, 1893? A. Six
hundred and thirteen and 615 Third avenue.
Q. Was there an indictment found against you for some vio.
lation of the Excise Law at that time? A. Yes, sir; there was.
Q. During the summer of 1893 were you somewhat interested
in the canvass of Walter W. Bahan? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you live in his Assembly district? A. I did..Q. Were you requested by various people to withdraw from 
his support? A. I was.
Q. In supporting him; anybody come to you in October on that
subject? A. Yes, sir; there was.
Q. Do you know a man of the name of George Laughlin? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. What is nis business? A. I believe he takes some parts
in the police department.
Q. Is he one of the clerks there? A. I think he has something to do with the clothing departments there.
Q. Is he the supply clerk? A. The supply clerk.
Q. Did he ask you to leave Bahan's organization? A. He did.
Q. What did you say to him? A. I told him I would not do it
Q. Do you know Alderman McKeon? A. Yes, sir; very well.
Q. Is he an active member of Tammany Hall? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what district? A. Ninth Assembly district, the same
district.
Q. Did he ever talk to you about it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he tell you? A. He told me a man had been
nominated in the Ninth Assembly district by Tammany Hall,
and I should be compelled to take my coat off and work for him,
Q. What did you tell him? A. I told him I would not.
Q. Told him you would go on and work for Bahan? A. I did;
yes, sir.
Q. When was this conversation with Alderman McKeon?
A. I should think it was along about the early part of October.
Q. About the same time as your conversatio'n with Laughlin?
A. Yes, sir; somewhere along that
Q. Were you notified about that time that your indictment
would be moved for trial? A. Yes, sir; shortly after that
Q. What did you do about it? A. I went down to plead to
the indictment.
Q. You went down prepared to try it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you go to to attend the trial? A. Down to the
General Sessions room.
Q. What building is that? A. Right around here in Chambers
street




Q. Did you meet any Tanmmany Hall people there. A. I did;
several of them.
Q. Did they talk with you about your case? A. My brother
and the president of the Liquor Dealers' Association did, and
also Assemblyman Walker.
Q. What advice did they give you on that subject?
Chairman Lexow.-You mean Mr. Tekulskey?
The Witness.-No, sir; I did not know him; the president of
the local association-the branch.
Q. What is his name? A. James Holmes.
Q. What did they advise you to do? A. To let it alone and
they would fix it for me.
Q. What about your political action; what advice did they
give you on that subject? A. They did not give me any advice,
because I would not take it.
Q. Was your case finally tried? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What became of it? A. I was discharged; it was dismissed rather.
Q. You were discharged? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you 'a member of the Jefferson Club in October,
1893? A. Jeffersonian.
Q. Or Jeffersonian Association? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was that association located? A. Fifteen Abingdon square.
Q. Was that an organization in the interests of Tammany
Hall? A. It was last year; yes, sir.
Q. Did. that meeting take any action with regard to Bahan's
canvass, or did that club? A. Yes, sir; they did.
Q. In October? A. In the first meeting in October.
Q. What was that action? A. They indorsed the nomination.
Senator Cantor.-What has this to do with the police?
Mr. Sutherland.-I will show you in a moment, just a moment
Q. Was there a meeting of the club in the latter part of the
month? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In which the indorsement of Bahan's canvass was a matter
of discussion? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the action in the latter part of October? A.
They had it reconsidered.
Q. Were there any police officers present at the last meeting?
A. Twelve or 15.
Q. Did they vote on the subject? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did they vote? A. They all voted in favor of the
reconsideration.
C). After it was reconsidered did they rescind the motion?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Expunged it from their minutes? A. Yes, sir.




374


Q. Who was in the chair at that meeting? AL The president
and the vice-president.
Chairman Lexow.-Both in the chair?
The Witness. — o; they took turns at it; they rotated.
Q. What was their names? A. The president's name was
George Roberts.
Q. Who was the vice-president? A. Frank McCarty.
Q. Is he police sergeant? A. Yes, sir.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. There were a great many other excise cases tried, or put
on the calendar, at the same time yours was? A. I don't know.
Q. Don't you know every morning there was 15 or 20 or 30
excise cases put on the calendar? A. I don't know.
Q. Your case was transferred to the Special Sessions?  A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Like a great many hundreds of other excise cases? A. I
don't know.
Q. At the Special Sessions, you had your trial like everybody
else, and was discharged? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the police officer testify against you? A. Yesa sir.
Q. Dd you take the witness stand? A. No, sr.
Q. Did you call evidence? A. What is that?
Q. Did you call evidence? A. No, sir.
Q. Did the court find the case insufficient without your testimony? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. That is to say, at the conclusion of the people's case you
were discharged by the court? A. Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. When was this? A. This was after election; I was
discharged.
Q. When were you notifi((l that your case would be called for
trial?  A. The middle of October.
Q. The end of October? A. Along the middle of October.
Q. How   long prior to (lectioln day can you remember?
A. Well, I was on twice before election; once I had to come and
plead to the indictment, and then come up for trial.
Q. And bothl of these occurrences just preceding election?
A. Just preceding election.
Q. Do you know whether or not an unusual number of excise
cases were put upon the calendar and the defendants forced to
plead at that time?  A. T dlid not hear a;ny; I know there were
lots ahead of mine that ouhtlt to have been tried beforeT




375


Q. That should have been tried? A. That should have been
t ried before mine.
Mr. Nicoll.-Does the committee want me to testify on the
subject? I can produce the records of the court
Chairman Lexow.-I am through.
Mr. Nicoll.-I do not think that the committee should make
a personal attack on me. It is entirely beyond the limits of the
resolution. I am ready to have my office investigated any time
the committee have power from the Legislature to do it.
Chairman Lexow.-No attack was intended on you.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You say there were 10 or 12 policemen at the meeting of
the Jeffersonian Club? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were any of the policemen or officers in uniform? A. Yes,
sir; one or two wore the uniform.
Q. Have their clubs with them? A. I did not see any club.
Q. Have the star on? A. Have the shield on.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Who was it he said wore the shield? A. I don't know the
policeman's name.
John J. O'Brien, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testifled as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherlands
Q. Where do you reside. A. Seven hundred Washington
street.
Q. What is your business? A. Liquor business.
Q. Where is it? A.' Seven hundred Washington street
Q. The same place? A. Yes.
Q. Southwest corner of Perry and Washington? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know Captain Delaney of the ninth precinct?
L Yes, sir.
Q. Of the Ninth Assembly district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who is his ward officer? A. Brennan and Quinlan.
Q. Which one came to you just prior to election day?
[A. Prior to election day?
Q. Yes?   A. None.
Q. One of these men came to you in regard to your vote?
IA On election morning.! Q. Which one of them was it? A. Mr. Brennan.
Q. What happened; what did he bring; what did he say?
r& He brought a ticket for me to vote and it was marked.




376


Q. What did he say about it? A. He told me that was the
ticket I was to vote.
Q. Told you that was the ticket you was to vote? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. How was it marked? A. There was one candidate running
for justice-William Wall-there was one William Wall running for judge; there was only one name on the ticket, and his
name was scratched, and John Doe was marked on that ticket.
Q. And that was a paster ballot? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he told you that was the ticket for you to vote?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you tell him you would vote it? A. I did not say anything; I used my own judgment.
Q. Did he say anything else about your voting that ticket? A.
No, sir.
Q. Was any one else there when he came in? A. Yes, sir;
the captain of the district was there.
Q. The Democratic captain? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was his name? A. Richard Flynn; he was at one
end of the bar and I was at the other.
Q. Oaptain Flynn was at one end and you and the other mlan
were at the other end? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he speak in a loud tone of voice? A:. No; in a low tone.
Q. What time of the day was it? A. It was early in the morning; I couldn't exactly tell.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What is your business? A. Liquor business.
Q. Do you own a saloon? A Yes, sir.
Q. Where is your saloon? AL Seven hundred Washington
street
Q. Have you a license? AL Yes, sir.
Q. When did you procure it? A. The last license?
Q. Yes. A February 20th.
Q. February 20th? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Of this year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What are your politics? AL Well, Tammany Hall.
Q. You are a Tammany Hall man? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you a member of the organization in your district? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you been a member of Tammany Hall? A2
For years.




377


By Senaror Bradley:
Q. How many years? A. Probably about nine years; eight or
nine years, I would not be positive.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Have you been a candidate for any office? A. No, sr.
Q. During all that period of time you have been in the saloon
business? A. No; I have not been.for myself; I have been attending bar before that.
Q. How long since you have been in for yourself? A. About
four years.
Q. For whom were you attending bar prior to that time? A.
Washington and dClristopher streets; Patrick Shields.
Q. How long have you lived in the city of New York?  All
my life, from a boy; I was born here.
Q. What other occupation besides that of bartender have you
had? A. I have been in the dry goods busines.
Q. You were in the dry goods business? A. Yes, sir 
Q. Where? A. In Spring street; I disremember the numnber;
somewheres near Washington street.
Q. What was the name of the concern? A. Thomas Courtney.
Q. What year was that that you were in that business" A.
It is probably 14 years, I guess.
Q. Fourteen years ago? A. Probably that.
Q. Did you go out of the dry goods business into the liquor
business as bartender? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you discharged from Courtney's? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you leave of your own accord? A I isremember that;
I really disremember what I left there for.
Q. Did you leave of your own accord? A. No, sir.
Q. Why did you leave? A. I guess it was dullness or something; I disremember; I couldn't say; I got a recommend from
them.
Q. Were you discharged? A. No, sir.
Q. You got a recommend from them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where is that? A. Have got it home; I think I have; 1
think I have got it home; yes, sir.
Q. Did you go immediately from there into the liquor business? A. No, not right away.
Q. What did you then? A. I didn't do anything; yes, I went
into the hotel business. 
Q. When you say you went into the hotel brsiness, what do
you mean; what specialty? A. Hall boy.
IL       48




378


Q. What hotel? A. Everett House, in New York.
Q. How long were you there? A. Probably a year or more.
Q. And from there? A. That is my nearest recollection on
the subject.
Q. From there where did you go? A. To the Westminster,
I think.
Q. As a hall boy? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long were you there? A. About a year.
Q. And from there where did you go? A. I went to attend
bar for William Burns.
Q. As a barkeeper for William Burns? A. In Washington
street between Christopher and Barrow streets.
Q. How long did you attend bar for him? A. Six years.
Q. And after that for whom did you attend bar. A. -For
Jacob Foley.
Q. Where is his place? A. Three hundred and ninety West
street.
Q. Were you ever indicted for violation of the Excise Law?
Mr. Sutherland.- I object.
Chairman Lexow.- Excluded.
Q. Were you ever arrested for violation of the Excise Law?
Mr. Sutherland.- I object.
Chairman Lexow.- Excluded.
Q. Were you ever convicted for violation of the Excise Law?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you ever tried for violation of the Excise Law?
Mr. Sutherland.- Objected to.
Chairman Lexow. Excluded.
Mr. Sutherland.- You' know those questions are not proper.
Mr. Nicoll.- I should think, in view of Mr. Tekalskey's evidence, when he said there was this friction between the excise
men or the liquor dealers in New York and the policemen, the
police putting an interpretation upon the law which the liquor
dealers resisted, and that there were constant arrests being
made which they deemed oppressive, we might at least ask a
gentleman who had been in that business, who comes and
testifies against a police officer, whether or not he hadn't an
animus, as the result of which he deemed it to be an oppressive
arrest. If the strict rules of evidence which the committee now
observes are ever to be relaxed in the interest of truth, it seems
to me this would be a fair opportunity for relaxing them.
HoweverQ. How long did you remain bartender, do you say, for Mr.
Poole? A. Mr. Burns.
Q. Mr. Burns; six years? A. Yes, about six years, between
five and sox.




I                  i~~~~~~~~~~~~


Q. And did you after that go into business on your own
account? A. No; I attended bar for Mr. Foley.
Q. How long were you with Foley? A. I guess a couple of
years
Senator Cantor.-Isn't it fair to ask this witness-I think
it is a legitimate cross-examination -to ask him whether he
had been persecuted by the police?
Mr. Nicoll.-Whether he deems he has been persecuted by the
police; whether they have gone outside of their bounden duty?
Chairman Lexow.- The committee at the last session took
this ground: No man likes on the stand to admit he was arrested,
even although that arrest was not followed by a conviction.
Now, we have to protect our witnesses or place ourselves in a
position where very few will come and volunteer their testimony
on an investigation of this kind. The question of arrest might
have the effect of showing some bias, but it is better heie, I
think, and a majority of the committee so thought at the last
session, to rule these questions out rather than to permit witnesses to be intimidated by them.
Mr. Nicoll. -Does not the majority of the committee think
that the rule ought to be modified to suit the special instance;
for instance, if the committee thinkChairman Lexow.-Ask him if he has any feeling; of course,
you can ask him that.
Mr. Nicoll.-He will say no, of course. If, for instance, in a
given case the committee think that the exercise of that rule
is necessary for the protection of a witness, would it not then
be a very proper occasion for the committee to prevent and
restrain that line of examination; but if, on the other hand, the
committee think, in another case, that it is fair to show the
attitude of the witness, that no great moral obliquity, in his
opinion, attaches to him on that account, vwhy, then, might not
the rule be relaxed? With regard to the violations of the
Excise Law, we may judge from the testimony of the president
ef the association, they do not regard an arrest as a matter of
very great reproach. It is not like an arrest for some other
offense against the laws. They do not seem to look at it in that
way; and under those circumstances, perhaps proving the attitude of this witness toward the force generally, toward the
member of the force, perhaps, against whom he is testifying,
might not it be a proper action?
Mr. Sutherland.-Which member of the force is not in the
habit of making arrests?
Mr. Nicoll.-I do not know anything about It.
Mr. Sutherland.-It is the wardmen, not one of the rounde
men or patrolmen.




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Ohairman Lexow.-The rule laid down was, you could prove
any specific act of arrest against any officer who was charged
with any violation of duty by the witness under examination;
but if you go further and undertake to sift this witness' experience, he may have been arrested a dozen times. No man
likes to go on the stand and swear to that effect; and if we
admit it, that evidence would ha.ve the effect of inducing
others to withhold their testimony.
Senator Cantor.-On the contrary, the witnesses can testify
as they please.
Chairman Lexow.-The majority of the committee seem determined to hold that rule. You can show any testimony by this
witness tending to inculpate the policeman who is attacked by
him in his testimony. If this specific policeman arrested hire
at any previous time, you can show that on the question of
bias
Q. I was asking you something about your employment,
under Mr. Foley, I think? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did that precede your going in business on your own
account? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go into business on your own account immediately
after you left Mr. Foley? A. A short while after.
Q. *Had you a partner? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you own the saloon in which jyou worked? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Yourself? AL Yes, sir.
Q. That was in the ninth election ristrict, was it? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Ninth Assembly district, I mean, i. Yes, sir.
Q. You voted in what election district? A. Thirtieth.
Q. And the controversy or the question was in relation to a
civil justice, was it? A. How do you mean?
Q. Was it a vote he wanted you to cast for a civil justice?.AL No; it was for an Assemblyman.
Q. That was the district in which 3Mr. McDermott was? A.
Yes, sir; and Mr. Bahan was candidate.
Q. Mr. McDermott was the Tammany Hall candidate?    A.
Yes, sir.
Q And Mr. Bahan was the independent candidate? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you were a sympathizer of Bahan's? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And against McDermott? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you been - were you one of the general committee in
the district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And had you been anxious for Mr. Bahan's nomination? Al
Yes, sir.




381
'  And when Mr. Bahan was not nominated but Mr. McDemott was, you supported his independent candidacy? A. Yes,
fid,
Q. Is that it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The detective, you say, was a supporter of Mr. McDermott,
was he not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He asked you to vote for him? A. Yes, sir; and handed
me a ticket.
Q. And handed you a ticket? A. Yes; and told me -I did
not give any satisfaction; I didn't tell him how I would vote;
I thought it was my own business; to use my own judgment.
Q. You hadn't any objections to anybody asking you to vote
for a friend, did you? A. No, sir.
Q. You do that yourself? A. Yes, sir.
Senator O'Connor.- There is testimony that the policeman
gave him a marked ticket which is a direct violation of law.
Chairman Lexow.- It had a specific mark on it.
Senator Cantor.-A paster with a mark on it is a violation
of law?
Senator O'Connor.- Certainly it is. A public officer is an agent
and abetting a citizen to commit a crime.
Senator Cantor.-You asked people to vote for you?
Senator O'Connor.-Yes, but not an identified ballot.
Q. What hour in the morning 'was it the officer arrived? A
I would not say; it was early in the morning.
Q. It was early in the morning? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was in the store with you besides yourself? A. There
was quite a crowd.
Q. There were a number of men? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mention me the names of two or three? A. Well, the
Tammnany Hall captain was there, Richard Flynn.
Q. Richard Flynn? A. Yes.
Q. Who else waA there? A. I could not really say; there was
quite a crowd; I did not notice; I was pretty busy; it was election morning.
Q. Can't you tell anybody that was there except Flynn, of all
the people that were in there? A. There were probably
about 10.
Q. I understood you to say that there was that number there;
but I asked you to give the names; I want to get some of them
as witnesses; tell them now-some of them?   A. I did not
really take notice.
Q Can't you tell the name of any one man that was there
besides i/lyrnn? A. Flynn and Preninnl.
Q, That was. Officer Brennan? A Yes, sir.




882 


Q. Bnt about the other, then; can't you tell one or twot?
Who were there at the time?
a. aor Br adley. —He says he can not remember any others.
The Witness.- I can not remember any others; I might make
a mistake, and I don't want to make a mistake; I want to tell
the truth; I do not want to make a mistake.
Q. When Brennan came in where did he-did he come right
up to you? A. Yes.
Q. In the presence of these other people? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And handed you the ballot? A. Handed me the ballot
Q. There were a number, of people all around, weren't there?
A. They were at the other end of the bar.
Q. They were at one end of the bar? A. Yes, sir; and
he was at the other end of the bar. 
Q. Where were you? A. At the end of the bar with him,
talking with him.
0. Did he ask you It vote for McDermott? A. No; he told
me that was the ticket I should vote.
Q. He told you to vote that ticket? A. Yes, sir
Senator O'Connor. —No; that was the ticket he should vote.
That is the way the witness testified.
Q. He told you that was the ticket you should vote? A. Yea
sir.
Q. What did you say? A. I didn't say nuthin'; I took the
ticket and put it away.
Q. Did you vote it? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you got the ticket? A. I don't know; I might haem
Q. Please produce it; don'+ you know whether you destroyed
It or not? A. I don't know whether I did or not
Q. Didn't you keep it? A. I think I did.
Q. When did you last see it? A. About a week ago, I guesa
O. A week ago? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was it then? A. In the safe.
Q. In. a safe? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You kept it in your safe? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where is it now? A. It may be ir there now; I don'{
know.
Q. Have you taken it out since then? A. I couldn't really
say.
Q. You must recollect what you did with it a week ago; don't
youl?
Chairman Lextw. — He says he has not seen it for a week.
Q. I mean to say, you have not forgotten what you did with
the ballot within a week? A. I don't know what I did with it;
if I have it, I will bring it




Z~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


883
Mr. SuftierTana.-He said he saw it a week ago, and I object
Mr. Nicoll.-This is a fair cross-exmination. The witness 's
not disturbed.
Q. When did you tell this story to Mr. Sutherland?  A
Which?
Q. This story you have been telling here? A. I did not tell
him; I did not know anybody knew it; that is what surprised
me.
Q. Didn't you see him examine you from a piece of typewrit.
ten paper? A. Yes, sir; and that is what surprised me.
Mr. Sutherland.-He did not know where I got it from, and
you do not
Q. When did you tell it? A. I did not tell it to him; I suppose
I might have had a jag on some night and told it, and it has
come out
Q. This was a story you told when you had a jag on?  A. I
suppose so, and I showed it to somebcdy and let it get out; 1
naturally felt sore.
Q. When did you have your last jag?
Chairman Lexow.-I think that is going far enough.
Mr. Nicoll.-May I not find out when he promulgated this
story and under what circumstances he promulgated it?
Ohairman Lexow.-I presume the result of your cross-examination is to satisfy the committee that this witness is not to be
believed. Now, this line of examination is not going to have
any effect upon this committee in my judgment.
Mr. NicolL ---I do not know what will have any effect on this
committee.
Chairman Lexow.-Testimony about jags and ridiculous matfers is not going to affect the committee.
Mr. Nicoll.-I can not tell what consideration is to move the
committee but if I am to cross-examine at all, I should be
allowed some fair limits.
Chairman Lexow. —I think a fair limit has been given, but
the use of this line of examination can have no other tendency
than to make the examination ridiculous, and the committee
are not prepared to have it turned into that channel.
Mr. Nicoll.-There*is no reason for conducting this proceeding exactly as a funeral. There is no reason, in ather words,
why we should not have the usual methods of examination in
courts. No judge would exclude a proper line of examination.
I do not want toSenator O'Connor.-What do we care about his having jags.
He said at some time he was tight and gave this information
to somebody.




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M3r. Nicoll.-T want to find outSenator O'Connor.- It might be very difficult for him to have
a remembrance when his last jag was.
fMr. Nicoll.- I would like to go into jags far enough to find out
whether this was an unusual circumstance or his periodical jag
or weekly jag.
Mr. Sutherland. —I suggest that Mr. Nicoll be put on the stand
as an expert on that subject 
Mr. Nicoll.-I am not an expert on that subject 
Q. You don't recollect when you spread this thing abroad, do
you? A. Some time ago; it was propably right after election
some time.
Q. You think it was some time after election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you were celebrating? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were not celebrating for Bahan? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you celebrating for Mr. McDermott? A. I refuse
to answer.
Q. You think when you were celebrating it, you gave this out?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it floated on so it reached Mr. Sutherland? A. Yea
sir, I have a pretty good idea who told him.
Q. Who told him?
Mr. Sutherland.-I object
Chairman Lexow.-That is excluded.
Q. Do you know who told him? A. Not positive.
Q. Had you heard who told him?
Mr. Sutherland.-Objected to.
Ser.ator Cantor.-You are not ashamed to have the source
of information communicated to the committee?
Chairman Lexow.-I think it is irrelevant; and Mr. Nicoll
knows it is an irrelevant question.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. When the detective came in and gave you the marked pakter
did he make any threat to you? A. No, sir.
Q. Only asked you as a favor that you should vote that paster?
A. No, he said that was the ticket he expected me to voteh
Q. He did not make any further threats? A. No, sir.
Q. Nothing to try to intimidate you? A. No, sir.
James A. Hooper, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testifLed as follows:
Direct-examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you live? A. No. 165 West Tenth stree.
Q. West Tenth street? What Assembly district is that?  X
Ninth Assembly.




Chlairman Lexow.- Just ask 'him what his business la.
Q.What is your business? A. Butcher.
Q.Where is your place of business? A. Jefferson markeL
Q.Are you a member of Tamnmany Ha.1l? A. I was, up totQ.Up tc when? A. Up to last election.
QUp to last election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you through the last election, during the last eleotlozi,
a, member of a'mn      Hal? A. I was a member up to election
night
Q. Were you a district captain on election day? A. No, sir;.
I was turned down the night before. 
Q. Were you a district captain up to that time'? A. Yes.
Q. In what election district? A. Twenty-sixth election.
Q.Of -the Ninth Assembly? A. Of the NIUtlL Assembly.
Q.Who was the leader of the Assembly district-the Tammany
leader? A. James Boyle~
Q. Was there a meeting of the district captains on Sunday
before the election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where.? A. Tammany Hall headquarters in Hudson street,
corner of Bank.
Q. Were you there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. -Were the other district captains of that Assembly districi
there? A. I believe they were.
Q. Mr. Boyle there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he give you some instructons? X. Yes Jr, brut I have
no recollection.
Q. Can you remember any of them? A. I can not, to tell the
truth.
Q. Was there anything said about how you should choose the
policeman that attended your polling place? A. Yes, si1r; there
was something said, but I have no recollection of what it was.
Q. Did Mr. Boyle say It? A. Yet, sir.
Q. Did he say that each district captain would choos, sudoh a
policeman as he wanted for his own election. district? A. If I
were right I think it was soneth-ing -to that effect, speaking of It
Q.Did he say that you would have two inspectors, and a poll
clerk and a public officer? A. I don't recollect that
Q. Or anything in substance like that? A. I have no recollect
tion, sir.                                 z
Q. And then did he say that if you don't win your disftict ItIs your own fault? A. I would not say.
Q. Do you mean to say you do not rememtnber, or whait? A. I
don't remember.
Q.Will you say he-did not isayv tb-W. A. I would noit Ws be
did not say it




886


Q. Will yon swear that he did not say that you would have the
two inspectors and poll clerk and police with you? A. I would
not say it, because I know, as far as the inspectors and poll
clerks are concerned, they were all appointed br Tammany Hall.
Q. I am talking about the instructions that MI. Boyle gave
to the district captains? A. I haven't any recollection of it
Q. Will you swear he did not state it to the district captains?
l& No, sir; I would not swear to that either.
Q. Were prizes offered for the largest vote polled in the Interests of Tammany Hall in each election district? A. I have no
recollection of his saying anything to that effect
Q. What is that? A. I haven't any rllec tion.
Q. Wasn't the prize of a gold watch offered?  A. Not as I
know of.
Q. You did not hear that? A. No, sir.
Q. What did you hear on that subject? AL I didn't hear anything to that effect; not to my knowledge
Q. Or anything in substance like that? A. No, sir.
Q. Was anything said about who would poll the largest Tammany Hall vote in this meeting, which district? A. (No answer4
Q How? A. I don't know.
Q. Was anything said on the subject of getting out yom vote?
A. Why, I knew that theQ. No, was anything said about it? A. Getting out the vote?
Q. Yes. A. No
Q. What were you called there for? A. I did not pay any
attention to the instructions that were given; as far as I was concerned, I was kind of sore at a certain thing, and I did not take
much interest then.
Q. You had not been turned down, then? A. No, sir.
Q. You were still captain of your district? A. Yes.
Q. And you were there to receive instructions, were you mot?
A. Yes, sir; but the way Mr. Boyle had treated me I did not
take any interest in the matter at all.
— Q.S-low? A. I can not say; I haven't any recolleotion, sir.
Q. You recollect some of it very clearly; now the question I
asked you is if you heard what he said; don't shake your head but
speak so the stenographer can take it down? A. No
Q. You did not hear what he said; what part of the room were
you in? A. It is quite a big hall; a good deal larger than this.
Q. Larger than this courtroom? A About twice the size of
this room; we were all scattered around.
Q. How many were there?    A. I suppose every district was
represented.
Q. How many was that? A. Every election district was reprgaed.




387


QHow many were there? A. I supoeabout 46 or50.
QForty-six; in the neighborhood of 45 to 50 men there? Ao
Probably so; there wais maybe a few others in the hall that were
not captains.
Q. Did anybody else do any talking except Mr. Boyle? A. Yei,
sir; I think theree was one or two men got up and haid something
to say.
Q. Who were they?
Mr. Nicoll.- Xow, Mr. Ohairnman, in so, far, as this investigatiom
relates to the police and to their conduct, and in so far as It
brings evidence which makes it appear that they were guilty of
any infration of the law, it seems Uc mie it is material; but hms
the committee power our, is it the intention of thC- committee to
investigate any charges of political activity or political conduct
on the part of the election o~fllcers, or violations of law by them?
ChaimnLexow.- Discionnected with the pollcee?
Mr. Nleoll.-YesChairman Lexow.~-I presume Mr. Sutherland is going to cm-i
nect it.
-Mr. Nxioll.-He has asked the question whether Mr. Boyle
stated the police would not act in sympathy with theAeto
Inspectors and poll clerks and the district captalns; and he bhas
said he don't recollect anything of that sort was said; and does
nut that really exhaust that part of the subject; and is not all the
rest simply a matter which may be left perhaps to the investigate
tiou of some other committee under a different resolution?
Senator Cantor.- There is a committee already in existence
for that purpose, for the investigation of election frauds througli
out the State.
Chairman Lexow.- Do you expect to connect it?
Mr. Sutherland.- This witness has stated that each captain
should have their own policemen.
The Witness.- I did not say anything concernin~g the pollee
Chairman Lexow.- As I remember the witness's testimony,,
he has stated that he'would not swear that Mr. Boyle -had- not
made that statement.
Mr. Sutherland.- I understood the-witness to state he thought
that something of that kind was said. The record will show.
Mr. NioDll.- Hle stated that he did not recollect, and then Mr.
Sutherland asked whether he would not swear he did not, and
he said he would not swear he did not.
Mr. Sutherland.- You are mistaken about it I suppose I
way go on and examine the witness?
Mr. Nicoll.- Certainly.
Q. Whro spoke besides Mr. Boyle? A. I haven't any reoo&.
lection now of the people who did get up to -




388


Q. Was there more than one besides Mr. Boyle? A. There
was one or two, as I said before.
Q You don't remember who they were? A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. Did anyone say anything about the police in their talk t
IK I don't remember.
Orossexamination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. I understood you to say you had some little difference with
Mr. Boyle in the district there, didn't you, as to your sympathies?
ym  were in favor of one candidate and he was in favor of
another, wasn't he? A. No, sir; the candidate that I was in
favor of was John F. McDermott, for Assembly; that is the man
I was really working for, and Mr. Boyle turned me down; I
don't know what for.
Q There was some misunderstanding? A. Yes, sir; and Mr.
Boyle sent for me since and wanted to apologize, but I would
not accept his apology, because I have been faithful.
Q. At all events, this is one of those political misunderstand
ings that sometimes occur between the statesmen? A. That is
the idea
By Senator Bradleys
Q. When was this meeting; when did this meeting occur 
A. The meeting of the captains?
Q. Yes? A. On Sunday afternoon; I can not recall the date.
Q. Sunday before election? A. Probably that was it.
Q. Last election? A. Yes, sir.
Q Have you been afflicted with a short memory all your life..time? A. I have; yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexows 
Q One moment; the occurrences of that interview between Mr.
Boyle and the different district captains there was, in your judg'ment at that time, a matter of some importance, wasn't it; it was
a matter of some importance at that time to you, wasn't it, that
interview, that meeting? A Some importance; I suppose it
was; yes, sir.
Q Is there nothing that occurred there that you remember
now? A. No
Q Nothing at all? A. No.
Q. Your mind is a perfect blank as to anything that occnred
tn that occasion? A. Yes, sir.
S enator Bradley.-He has always been afficted in that v u




889
1 B. Rafelson, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified
as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Four hundred and nineteen
East Fiftieth street
Q. What is your business? A. Infants' wear.
Q. Where do you do business? A. Four hundred and eighty,
one Broadway.
Q. Where did you live in 1892? A. One hundred and sixt,
Division street
Q. In what Assembly district is that? A. The Third Assemt
bly district, I believe.
Q. In which election district? A. I think it is the fifth election district
Q. Did you have a shop there? A. I had a store there at that
time.
Q. Do you know Ralph Nathan? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you a friend of his? A. He is a nephew of mine; I
raised him.
Q. You knew that he was a candidate for office, did you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have his lithograph in your window? A. Yes, sir;
in the window of my store.
Q. Did any policeman call on you in regard to that lithograph?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was he? A. I do not know the policeman's name
anymore.
Q Did you take his number? A. No, sir; I was so excited at
that tihre that I forgot to get his number.
Q. Was he in uniform? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time of the day was it that he called? AX I think
it was about noon time.
Q. What day of the month? X. I do not remember.
Q. How long before election was it? A. It was a week or 10
days before election.
Q. What did he tell you? A. He came into the store and said
that I should take out the picture from the window; I knew that
he was the policeman on that post, on that street, and I asked
him if he knew who the portrait was, and he said he knew that
he was a nephew of mine, but, "I want you to take it out; " o I
told him, "If you don't clear out of here, I will fire you out and
you will be very sorry for it, I will take good care of myself,'
and so he went out
Q. Did you explain to him that Mr. Nathan was your nephew?,
A. Yes, sir; he knew that




890


Q. Did he say that he knew Mr. Nathan was your nephew?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he said it made no difference? A. Yes, sir; he said
If it was my own picture, I would have to take it down.
Q. He said that to you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he tell you why you would have to take it down? K.
Because Mr. Nathan was on the Republican party.
Q. Did he say what right he had to order it down? A. I did
not ask him so many questions, but I told him to clear out.
Q. Did you take it down? A. No, sir.
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. Whose picture was it? A. Ralph Nathan's.
Q. What was he running for? A. For the Assembly.
Q. lHe was the Republioan candidate for Member of Assembly
In that district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it for Member of the Assembly or for judge? A.
Member of Assembly at.that time, in 1892.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Was it in 1892 or 1893 that you were present in a saloon
when Mr. Nathan inquired why his picture was taken down from
there? A. No, that was in 1892 also.
Q. What saloon was that? A. Right next door to me.
Q. You and your nephew went in there together? A. Yes, idr
we went past, and we saw that the picture was not in the window and we went in and I asked him why it was down and he
said the officer was there and told him(Objected to.)
Mr. Nicoll.-Is the conversation between him and the saloon.,
keeper proper evidence?
Mr. Sutherland.-As to the reason why he took his pioture
out of the window is proper.
Mr. Nicoll. —I think that is going to a very great length.
Chairman Lexow.-I think it is a little roundabout
Q. What was the name of the saloon-keeper? A. I do not
remember.
Mr. Sutherland.-Why, it was right in the midst of a political
Senator O'Connor.-It seems hardly competent.
Mr. Sutherland.-Why, it was right in the midst of a political
campaign, and the excitement was very great, and the candidate
had his picture in the window, and he was told that it was
taken out, and he went in to inquire about it, and he was told
why it was taken down.
Senator O'Connor.- That would not be evidence that the
saloon-keeper gave a truthful reason.




891


Mr. Sutherland.-It would not be evidence if a person was
on trial for a crime, of course; but I think it is good evidence
here.
Senator O'Connor.-I do not think it is competent
Chairman Lexow.-We all think that the testimony is too
Indireet.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. I understand that you are a manufacturer? X. Yes, sir.
Q And that you are the uncle of Mr. Nathan, who ran fo
civil justice against Judge Roesch? A. I believe so.
Q. You were naturally greatly interested in your nephew's
canvass? A. I think I ought to be.
Q. Well, you were, of course? A. Certainly.
Q. And you hung up a picture of his in your store? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Who was the man who came and asked you to take it
down? A. An officer.
Q. Was he in uniform? A. Yes, sir
Mr. Sutherland.-He said he was an officer on that beat
Q. You had no trouble with the police, did you, in your business? A. No, sir.
Q. Your business does not bring you in contact with the police
in any way? A. No, sir.
Q. When he came in and asked you to take the picture down,
you told him to get out, did you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you kept the picture hanging there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he tell you that he did not sympathize with your
nephew in his canvass? A. He didn't say anything at all.
Q. He just asked you to take it down? A. Yes, sir; to take
It down.
Senator O'Connor.- He did more than that, more than to ask
him; he said that he should take it down.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Do you use a showcase outside of the door of your store I
a. Yes, sir.
Q There was no officer who interfered with that and asked
you to take it in, was there? A. No, sir; but the showcase was
within the three feet so that it was not any incumbrance upon
the street,




892
Henry Kueters, called as a witness, being duly swawr esfife
as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Twenty-five Vandam street
|     4 Q. Did you reside there in the fall of 1892? A. No, sir —ye,
sir; I did.
Q. Where was your voting place? A. I could not tell you the
number of Varick; it was Vandam and Charlton.
Q. What Assembly district is that? A. The Eighth Assembly
district
Q. In what election district is that? A. The eighth election
district
Q. The eighth of the Eighth? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What officer attended the polls there in 1892? XL He was
unknown to me; I don't know him.
Q. Did the same officer attend in 1893?  A. I am speaking
about 1893.
Q. What I want to know is, whether it was the same officer
who attended there year after year? A. I did not vote the year
before that.
Q You did not vote in the year 1892? A. No, sir; I did not
vote that year.
Q. You can not tell the name or the number of the officer
then, who attended there last fall? A. No sir.
Q. Did the officer do or say anything to you when you came up
to cast your vote? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say to you? A. He stepped up to me and
tapped me on the shoulder and asked me if I did not leave something in the booth.
Q. What were you doing at that particular moment? A. I war
casting my ballot
Q. Had the inspectors got it out of your hands at that time?
A'. Yes, sir.
Q. They were about putting it in the box? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you turn around to look, to see if you had left anything?
A. I did not go into the booth again.
Q. No, but did you turn your head, when he tapped you on the
shoulder? A. I believe I did.
Q. Did you see the ballot go into the box, or was your head
turned just at that time? A. Very likely it was
Q. Did he do that to other voters besides you? A. I unde.
stood that he did.
Q Did you see him do it to others? A. Na




Cross-examination by,3Mr. 1 1NicolIt  -' -i
Q. Do you mean to say that the officer voted your ballot?
Mr. Sutherland. —No, he did not say so, but he distracted the
attention of the voter, so that the ballot might get into the wrong
box.
Mr. Nicoll.-Well, I think that is a wild story.
Q. Did you go to the ballot clerk and get your ballot? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. You got them in the usual manner? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he gave you a full set of ballots? A. Yes, sir; four or
five; I am not positive which.
Q. All there were to give out, he gave to you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you took them in your hand and went into the boothm
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know how to fold them? A. No, sir; I did nob know
how to fold them.
Q. Had you never folded ballots before? A. I had, once before
this.
Q. Did you not know how to fold them on that election day?
A. Not that day; not the last election.
Mr. Sutherland.- This witness oommences with standing
before the ballot-box.
Senator O'Oonnor.-The only significant question, it seems to
me, is this: while this witness was handing the ballots to the
inspector, the policeman distracted his attention, and told him
that he had left something in the booth, and the argument is for
the purpose of permitting the inspector, without his knowledge,
to put it in the wrong box; I do not understand that he hab
direct proof of that, but counsel asks us to infer that.
Mr. Sutherland.-I shall bring other witnesses in reference
to that point, to show that the same thinr occurred to others.
Senator (O'onnor.-The only material thing is, whether ie
officer did call his attention away from his vote, at that particular time.
Mr. Nicoll.-It is a very serions accusation to make against a
police officer, if true.
Mr. Sutherland.-Not nearly so serious as many others that
have been testified to.
Chairman Lexow.- Go on.
Ml Nicoll.- Well, you have not proved them yet, and the committee have heard only one side of the case; I do not suppose that
the committee will listen to your evidence only, evidence on one
side?
Senator O'Connor.- No, we will make up our minds after hearing all the evidence.
L.       50




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394


QYou folded your ballots, did you not? A: No,sir.
LyQ. W ho assisted you?. A. I had this policeman to assist me.
Q. This policeman assisted you in folding your ballots? A.
Yes, sir, he did.
Q Did he fold them for youZ A. Yes, sir; he told me to folJ
one - he asked me which one he should fold for me -he Cid not
ask me which party, but asked me which identical one he should
fold, and I gave him the one I wanted him to fold.
Q. And that was the one you wanted to vote? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that one you gave him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. After that he said or asked you which you did not wish to
vote, did he? A I gave him three or four moare, which he folded
all in one.
Q. He did not attempt to tell you which one to vote, did he?!A. No, sir.
Q. He simply asked you which one you wanted to vote? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And he folded that for you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you told him the ones that you did not want to
vote, and he folded those? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then what did you do with the one that you wanted to
vote? A. I took them all.
Q. You held that one in your hand? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you held the others in the other hand? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when you came before the inspectors of election, what
Blid you do? A. I gave it to them.
Q. Did you give them all the ballots? A. I gave them the
ones I wanted to vote and then afterward I gave them the ones
that I did not want to vote.
Q. Did you see them put them down on the box? A. He was
tearing the end off when my attention was distracted.
0. Your attention was distracted? A. Yes, sir; when he was
tearing the end off.
Q. You do not undertake to swear or say that the inspector
voted a different ballot than the one you handed them? A. Na,
sir.
Q Do you come here to make that charge?
(Obiected to,)
A No, sir.
Q Do you make that charge before this august boiy?
(Obiected to.)
Olrairnan Lexow.-I think It is perfectly proper to know
whether he wants any inference drawn from his testimony.
Mr Sutherland. — He did not make any charge; he has simply
etnated what occurred.




Q. Do you want the gentlemen of the committee to believe
that your vote was diverted from what you intended, by the
inspector of that district? A. I could not tell whether the intention was that way or not
Q. You do not know; you have not made up your mind yet?
Senator O'Connor.-You ask in reference to the intention of
the ii spectors; he can not testify as to that. Ask him if he sua
pects that that was what was done.
Mr. Nicoll.- If he wishes the committee to believe that-.
Mr. Sutherland. —I did not ask him what he believed in my
examination. You have asked that, and if you object to his suspi(ions, do not ask for them.
Senator O'Connor.-I do not think the committee will pay
much attention to that, unless it is backed up by other evidence.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. What ticket was it that you told the policeman you wanted
to vote? A. The Republican ticket.,By Senator Bradley:
Q. Do you say that you handed the ballot to the officer that
you wanted to vote, and that he voted it for you? A. I voted it;
he folded it. 
Q. And he took the others and folded them all together? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And he brought them out? A. No; I brought them out
Q. All folded up in one? A. The one I voted, I had separate
from the others.
Q. And the other four or five, he folded them all up in one?
A. No; he folded. them just the same as the others were folded,
only in one package.
Q.. Do you remember how many ballot-boxes there were there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you not know there was only one ballot-box there t
Chairman Lexow. —No; there were two boxes, one for the
unused ballots. 
Mr. Sutherland.-He could transpose the ballots.
Mr. Bradley.-I understood the witness to say that the officer
folded the four or five ballots all up in one, and handed them
to him.
Chairman Lexow.-He meant in one bunch.
The Witness. —He folded the four separate, but in one packag,




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396
Woodruff Halsey, called as a witness, being dul.y an, test
fled as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherlands
Q. What is your profession? A. I am a clergyman.
Q. Where do you reside? A. Twenty-eight Oharlton street
Q. Where did you vote last fall? A. In the eighth election
district of the Eighth Assembly district.
Q. Can you tell us where that polling place was? A. It is on
Varick street, between Vandam and Charlton.
Q. Is that the same polling place that the last witness has
spoken of? A. I presume so; I did not pay very close attention
to his testimony.
Q. He described his as being the eighth of the Eighth t A.
Yes, sir; that is the same.
Q. What time of the day did you vote? A. About 10 minutes
of 8 o'clock in the morning; I left home at a quarter of 8, and I
voted along about 8 o'clock, I suppose, accurately speaking.
Q. How many policemen were in attendance there? A. One
inside and one outside.
Q. Do you remember the number or the name of the one
Inside? A. No, sir.
Q. Did this policeman inside speak to yo? A. After I
came out of the booth, after folding my ballots, and as I stood
in front of the inspector, after I had passed the ballots which
I did not vote to the inspector to my left, just as I handed my
ballot to the inspector, I heard someone speak to me, but I
paid no attention, and then the policeman touched me on the
ehonlder, this short policeman as distinguished from the taller
man outside, and I turned around as I would naturally do to an
Officer, and he said, "You left this pencil in the booth," and I
noticed that it was a red pencil; a sort of pencil that I never
carry; he said, "You left it in the booth," and I said, "No, I have
no use for the pencil," and he said, "You must ertainly have
left it there, for I found it there," and then it occurred to me, that
the policeman was endeavoring to distract my attention, and I
turned back, facing the inspector, and my ballot had disappeared,
and the inspector said it was all right; the fact that aroused my
suspicion even more than that, that there was some funny business going on was when I went home, it could not be later than a
quarter after 8 o'clock, because I had an engagement at a
quarter-past 8, and it was 10 or 15 minutes before the person
came for whom I was waiting, and when he came, I took out my
wath, and said, "You are just on time;" thiat is the reason I
know about the time; and I know that that mn passed an hotr,




897


and a gentleman came in, who lived at No 3 Charlton street
Mr. MoClintock, and he said(Objected to.)
Chairman Lexow. — Unless you propose to onimeoe it, i i
hardly competent
Mr. Sutherland.-It will be conneebed.
Q This is leading up to some matter within your own knowledge, is it not? A. Yes, sir; he asked me if I had voted and I said,
yes, and he said, " How long ago did you vote? " I said, " I voted
at 8 o'clock, and he said, "That is very strange, I was in the plaoe
at 9 o'clock, and I heard them calling off your name, and I waited,
waited and waited, but I saw no man like you there;" then we
went back to the polling place together, and I found that my
name had been voted on straight enough, so, of course, I could
do nothing more; then I asked him —the only reason I have of
introducing his name is that I asked him, "Did anything occur
to you at the polls?"-and he said the policeman(Objected to.)
Q. What was his name, did you say? A. Mr. T. L McOlintoek,
No. 8 Charlton street.
Q. How long have you lived in that election district? A. Four
years nearly in that district; in the Assembly district 12 years,
but in the election district only about four years; I lived at Na
31 Vandam street, before this.
Q. Do you know qite a good many people there? A. Yes, sir.
Q You know quite a good many Republicans in that election
district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. More than 12? A. I should say o; yes, ir.
Q. How many to your personal knowledge are there in that
district? A. I think I gave to someone-I do not know who it
was-the names of 20 men, that I was satisfied had voted for
Judge Bartlett
Q. How many Bartlett votes were found in that election ditrict? A. Twelve.
osi-examination by Mr. Niooll:
Q. Who was the Republican inspectr thiere? AL There was
not any Republican inspector thre —I beg your pardon -1
mean watcher; I do not know who the Republican inspector was.
Q You do not know him personally? A. No, sir.
Q Have you since inquired as to whether or not he was a true
and faithful Republican inspector? A. No, sir; I have not
Q. Whether he was anxious to look after te interests of his
party? A. T emild not make any inquiries.
Q. You did not know him? A. No, sir.




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Q. Then I suppose that we must presume that he was faithful
in the absnce of knowledge to the contrary? A. There w-ls no
Republican watcher there, for I went back and tried to find out.
Q. You say there was no watcher there? A. No, sir; there was
no one there outside; the Tammany Hall man was there; they all
knew me perfectly well.
Q. You are a perfectly well-known man there in the district,
are you not? A. Yes, sir.
(Q Youl are a cleigyman engaged in church work and you know
a great many of those people, do you not? AK Yes, sir.
Q. And on good terms with them, are you not? A. Up to this
election they have all been very polite to me; some have not
been so since.
Q. Were you treated with any rudeness at the polls? A. No,
sir; not at all.
Q. You simply entertain a vague suspicion that perhaps your
vote might have been juggled with? A. I should say more than
a suspicion.
Q. You'have told us all the facts upon which you base it? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you lived in that neighborhood? A. Twelve
years.
Q. What is your church? A. The Spring Street Presbyterian
church.
Q. Are you the pastor of that church? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You do not take an active part in pol'icsA do you? A. No,
sir.
Q. You do no more than to vote, do you? A. No, sir.
Q. Do I understand you to say that your name was voted on
once by yourself, and once by some one else? A. No, I would
not say that; I say that I voted at 8 o'clock and at 9 o'clock they
were calling off my name, which seemed to be a very suspicious
circumstance.
Q. That depends upon the statement of your friend, does it
not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you not hear of that yourself? A. No, sir.
Q. And when you returned to the polls to find out, it seemed
to be all regular, did it not? A. The vote had been cast
Q. And you had cast it at an earlier period of the day? A.
Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexow I
Q. Do you answer that that way?  1t Well I haa a tanIpe
o cast it; I do not say that I did cast t.




899


By Mr. Nicoll:
Q.I do not mean to trap you; Imean you had gone Iihrough t~e
performance which you have described here? A. Yes, air; I had.
J. Craig Havermeyer, ceAled as a witness, was duly sworn,
and testified as follows:
Direct eainatilon. by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. W~here do you reside? A. No. 50 West Thirfy4seventh slreet
Q.What Is your business? A.'Clerk.
Q.For whom? A. H.L B. Hollins & Company, No. 1-5 Wall
street
Q. Were. yon a Republican watcher at the last election? A., I
was.
Q. Where were you stationed? A. At No. 57 Baxter streetL
Q. What Assembly district is that in? A. The Second Assemb 1y, tI'.e thirty-eighith election district.
Q. Did yc'ui go there with your regnlaxr watcher s certificate?
A. I did.
QDrid Ivor exhibit it when you got theres A. Yes, sir.
Q. And notify them of your appotntmnent? A. I did.
Q.Did you demand your place prescribed for you by law? 'A.
Yes.
Q. What was said or done on that subject by the other side?
A. I attempted to walk behind the rail and one of the policemen
In charge asked me what I was doing there, and I told him I was
a regularly appointed watcher, and had a right to be there, and'
he told me that he had orders to allow no one behind the rail; I
protested, and he told me that I would have to get out to avold
trouble; I refused, so he came in and Jlad his hand on my arm,
with sufficient force to take me out-that is, I did not resist.
Q. HTe formally put you out? A. Hle did.
4Q. Do you know the -name or the number of that policeman?
A. There were two policemen stationed there, and my recollee.
ti )n -i's that one was No. 133 and the other was No. 1584.
Q. VWhic one was the one wh~o ejected you,? A. I do not
know.
Q.Were the inspectors of election there at that time? A. Yea~,
sir.
Q. Did they make any move to protect you? A. No, sir; none
at all.
Q. Were you able to get behind the guard-rail at all that day?
A. After the -polls closed at 4 o'clock, I was admitted behind the
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400: Q. Did this policeman who ejected you from behind the guardrail remain in the polling place all day? A. No, he went out
about lunch time, to get lunch.
Q. Did he come back again? A. Yes, sir; in the afternoon.
Q. So, excepting a short time when he was away for lunch, he
was there all the time? A. Yes, sir.
Q Was he where he could see what was going ou? A. Yes,
sir; he was right there.
Q. Tell what you saw in regard to any irregularities under the
observation of the policeman? A. The district was largely
inhabited by Italians, and a great number of those men were
apparently illiterate; one would come in frequently-in many
cases they would come in and they could not talk English, and
the ballot clerk would ask his name, and the Tammany -I suppose it w as a Tammany man outside, evidently a sympathizer of
his, would coach him.
Q. What did he do or say? A. They spoke principally in
Italian and I don't know what was said, but the henchman would
start to go in with these men.
Q. Go in where? A. In the booth, and I objected, and asked
what was the reason for his going in, and he said, that he could
not read-that was the henchman's reason, the man spoke no
English; and I said, that made no difference, and then at the
bidding of some one outside of the rail, a man who was stationed
there the entire day and directed affairs, he took an oath in
Italian - or I suppose it was an oath - he took an oath in Italian
that he was blind.
Q. Who told you that he was taking an oath that he was blind?!& The man who was stationed at the door, and directed the
voting.
Q. And after taking the oath that he was blind, then the other
man went into the booth with him? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the number of his ballot? A. I made a
note of them at the time.
Q. Was it number 136? A. That was one of the numbers, I
think.
Q. Did that sort of thing occur more than once during the day?
A. Yes, sir; frequently throughout the day.
Q. How many such were there? A. That occurred probably
10 or 15 times.
Q In each case did you protest? A. Yes, sir.
Q And in each case they took some oath, did theyf?! Yea,
they did.
Q. Or they went through the appearce of taking the oath?
A. Yes, it was done in Italian; I do not know whether it was an
oath or not




401
-.;AM
Q. Ten this man went wIth him into the looth? A. Yea
Q. And he came out with them? A. Ye..
Q. Were they actually blind? A. They had every appearance
of not being blind; when they first came in, their first reason vor
not voting alone was, that they could not speak English or eookl
hot write; then afterward at the bidding of someone outside,
they said they were blind.
Q. Could you see that they moved about freely? A. Tkey
came in, unassisted.
Q. They acted as if they had possession of their eyesight? A.
Yes, sir. 
Q. Could you see that they had full possession of their hands
and arms? A. Yes.
Q. Was there any outward appearance that they were unable
lo go into the booth alone, and prepare their ballots? A. No.
Q. But they went through some form of taking an oath, or
what was said to be an oath, in Italian, and then this managtg
man went into the booth with them  A. Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexowt
Q. Who   administered  the oath?  A. The  chaIrmai   of
inspectors 
Q. Was he an Italian? AL He was
Q. And there was no translation from English into ItaoaIa?
L No.
Croasexamnation by Mr. Nicolli
Q. Were you a witness before the grand Jury on any complaint
against the election officers? A. No.
Q. Or upon any charge in the Court of Oyer and Terminer?
ra No.
Q. Did you make any complaint to the captain, the inspector,
the superintendent or commissioners, of the conduct of the
officer? A. I made my complaint to the officer on the day of
election only.
Q. I understood you to say that the officer you put outside of
the guard-rail? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you remained there uitil the polls closed? A. Yes.
Q. That, you understood, was an invasion of your rights as a
watcher, provided you were duly authorized? A. Yes.
Q Who gave you your authorization as a watcher? A. The
Republican Club.
Q Was it signed by the police officials? A. I do not remember......
L.U




Q You do not know whether it was an authorization as
watcher under the statute or not, do you? A. I think not ---
that it was not signed by the official&
Q. You think it was not? A. I am not sure; I know a great
many other certificates of the same sort were given out.
Q. I understood you to say that you were a regular authorized
watcher? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nicoll. —I have supposed that all these people that you
have been talking about as watchers, were authorized by law?
Mr. Sutherland.- So they were.
Q. Where is your certificate? A. In my possession.
Q. Let us see it? A. I have not it here; it is at home, I
believe. 
Mr. Sutherland. —We can get it for you, if you want it.
Mr. Nicoll.- I would like to see it,
By Chairman Lexow:
Q Was there any question raised as to your certificate, as to/
the legality of it; as to its regularity? A. There was no quest
tion raised as to that.
Mr. Sutherland.-Will you send me your certificate to the
Hotel Metropole? A. Yes, sir.
Chairman Lexow.-The witness says there was no question
raised as to the regularity of this certificate.
Mr. Nieoll.- -   feel bound to say that my information is that
there were quite a number of certificates issued to gentlemen
who acted as voluntary watchers, but that they were not the
watchers who were authorized to act under the statute. You
perceive at once, the statute, on the question of a watcher, who
is authorized by law, is perfeely clear; there is no doubt about
that; a person who has been regularly authorized as a Republican
watcher, has as much right as anyone, but you will find that
what these gentlemen had was not a regular authorization, were
not authorized certificates of watchers from police headquarters,
but that they were volunteer watchers sent out by different associations.  Those persons, certainly, have not the right to go
within the rails, unless they were called there by the election
inspectors for the purpotse of preserving order, and that is what
you will find in all this testimony that we have been taking
here.
Chairman Lexow. — That objection would be good, if it was
raised at the time, but if the regularity of the certificate was not
called in question then, how that can be raised now, for the
purpose of defending those who violated the law, I can not
understand. 




403 -

Mr_ Icoll.-T Ihe proper person to present the certiicate?s the
watcher, to the inspeotor of electio~n and the watcher comes there
in the morning, and presents his certificate.
Mr. Sutherland.- That is what this man did.
Mr. Nicoll.- And they rejected it?
Mr. Sutherland.-No; the policeman told him to go out
Mr. Nicoll..- Let him bring his certificate here, and you will
fnd, that it was not authorized by the police departmient.
Chairman Lexow. — Supposing that is so, but the election
Inspector at that time did not reject his certificate on any such
ground - on any ground of irregularity - would that be a good
defense for them now?
Mr. Nicoll.- I am not here to defend any electi~on officer.
Chairman Lexow.- Would it be a good defense for the police
Officer?
Mr. NicIoll.- I am here to explain what seems to be a very
proper criticism. upon the conduct of certain police officers. No
one can defend the exclusion of a properly qualified or prorperly
authorized Republican watcher within the guard-rail. The statute makes it as plain as anything can be in the Enghis4 language.
There ongh to be no argument or debate about that; he has
an absolute right there, if he has got his proper credentials; but
I think you will find where they were not admitted, that they. hail
not the regular credentials, butthat they were certain volmnteer
watchers, equipped with an authorization from volunteer awaciatonn, and that they had not the right to go behind the gnarlrails.
Chairman Lexow..- Do you take this position, that supposing a
Republican watcher presents his certificate and no qnestion in
reference to the regularity of that certificate was raised at that
time, if now you can pink a flaw In that certifcater, that, therefore, it they were not admitted, no interference haz been
attempted?
Mr. Nicoll.- TMere can be no question; there to only one oertdficate; the law says who shall issue it and who shall sign it and
seal it; it is all provided for in the statute; there can be but one
such certificate, and whoever had such a certificate is entitled to
be there, and whoever did not have It was not entitled1 to be
there, ami the officer was obliged to put him out.
Who Witmem. - The officer did not even eamine my, ertifleate..
By Mr. Sutherland:
YouPo~   tod bim go had 10  X~51 I eakl'ted If1 at t 'ht Sumr




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Q.Who gave your paper to you? K. It was given to me at the
Republican Club.
Q. Were you ever at police headquarters to make an appliea
tion as a watcher? A. No.
Q. Was it just a piece of paper handed to you at the Republican Club? A. No; it was not just a piece of paper.
Q. Well, I mean a certificate? A. Yes; it was a certificate.
Q. Who handed it to you? A. I think Mr. Smith.
Q. John Sabine Smith? A. I think it was.
Q. Had there not been a call on the part of the Republican
Club to gentlemen interested in that side of politics to act as
watchers on election day; had there not been a request for
such persons to send in their names? A. I think both parties
requested the names of persons who would be watchers.
Q. And was it not in answer to that request that you sent in
your name? A. Yes. 
Q When did you call for your certificate T A. I think it
was the night before election.
Q Between the time of sending in your name and the time
when you got your certificate, had you been at police headquarters at all? A. I had not
Q. Will you please produce that certificate? 4. Yeas
Mr. Sutherland.- Send it to me at the Hotel Metropole.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You were at the polling place all day? A Yes; witi a
brief interval for lunch.
Q. Did you, during the whole day, or any part of the day, see
any policemen act in any kind of a disorderly manner or interfere with the voters as they came in or went out of the polling
place? A. They rather assisted than interfered..
Q They did not use any violence? A. No.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. What do you mean by the word " assisted "? X The police
frequently asked the Tammany man at the door to hurry in the
voter.
Q. Were you recognized there by the inspectors, as the Republican watcher? A. They did not question my authority at all.
Q. And they let you in after 4 o'clock? A. After 4 o'clock;
they did.
Q. As the Republican watcher? Ai. Yes, sir.
Q. And they did not question your autority tbrougfiou; tha
day? A. They did not.




I


By Senator O'k0nor:
Q. These Italians, who took the oath that they were blind, wa
that done in the presence of the policeman? A. Yes.
Q. And so far as you could see, they had good sight for all
purposes, except for voting? A. Yes, air; blindness was a
secondary question.
Q. It did not seem to attract the attention of the officer aa
being a suspicious circumstance at all? A. He showed no sigh
of that.
Q. When you told the policeman that you were there as a
Republican watcher, and you undertook to show him your eertficate, he said that made no difference? A. Yea sir; he 
he had orders to admit no one behind the rail.
By Chairman Lexowt
Q. To admit no Republican watcher behind the rail? X To
admit no one.
By Senator Bradleyt
Q Was there any other watcher Inside of the rail?  L No
Q. The Tam=any watcher was not inside of the rail, eitker t
A. No.
Senator O'Connor —They had no need of that. They had a
good inspector.
Q. Was the Tammany worker there   A. Yes; he was allowed
within the door.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did he peddle any pasters Insde te door? a A No.
Walter Logan, called as a witness, being duly aworn, testMfi
s follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:
Q Where do you reside? A. Two hundred and twety4wo
West Tenth street
Q. Where is your place of business? A. Five hundred" and
eighty-four Hudson street.
Q. What is your business? A. Printer.
Q. During the Presidential election of 1892, did you visit a
number of the election districts? A. I have been in the habit
of doing that regularly at every election.
Q Did you go down to Gainsevoort street in 1892 and observe a
0




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406


policeman there? X. I can not say that it was in 1892, lnut the
circumstance has been brought to my mind and I think it was
the year that Mr. Gorman ran for sheriff.
Mr. Nicoll.- That was in 1890.
The Witness.-Yes, 1890; I think.
Mr. Nicoll.-Does the committee want to go back to 1890?
Mr. Sutherland.-Did they have these booths then?
Mr. Nicoll.- Yes
Chairman Lexow.- Yes; that was the first year.
Q. Did you observe anything about the police officer at that
place? A. In traveling up Hudson street, my attention was
called to the fact that an irregularity was going on in that
polling place, and -
Q. Did you go there? A. Yes; I went there.
Q. What did you see? A. I stood by and saw the circumstance
repeated, of the policeman in charge being inside of the rail
and folding the ballots, taking the voter into the voting place,
and folding his ballot for him, and I waited until I got the*
evidence, and then I said to him, "Young man, you are exceeding
your duty; you have no right to do that;" and he seemed astonished, and even the inspector seemed astonished; and I said,
"Gentlemen, you must not allow the policeman to go inside of
the bar; his duty is outside to preserve order;" and I came
down to the station-house; I said I would go down to the stationhouse and report you if you proceed in this manner;" he felt
astonished, but, however, he was one of those men who had a
good deal of intelligence about him; and I said, "You are doing
an illegal act;" and he came out and said, "He would desist,"
but a number of the parties around there began to growl; and I
said, "Gentlemen, I will send an officer here, and if thait wont
be effective, I will go to the station-house and report you;" I
said, "Desist for your own sakes, gentlemen;" and I went up
to the Republican headquarters, at No. 1 Abingdon square, and
got one of the United States marshals to go and look after that
affair, and when he came back he reported at headquarters that
the policeman had desisted from doing this.
(Cros-examination waived.)
Thomas F. Carroll, called as a witness, duly sworn, testified
as followsa
Direct examination by Mr. Sutierlands
Q Where do you reside? A. One thousand six hmndred and
ninety-four Third avenue.




Q. Were you the Republican captain hI January last atte
special eleMtion? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what district? A. The Thirteenth Assembly district.
Q. In what election district? A. In the twenty-fifth election
district.
Q. Did you make any objections to the conduct of the police
officers there? A. No, sir.
Q. What was it that occurred there? A. The policeman came
outside, and ordered me away.
Q. Where were you? A. I was outside the door of the
polling place. 
Q. And the policeman ordered you away? A. Yes, sir; and I
walled away, as he said to me "Please excuse me," he says,
You will have to take a walk," so I walked away about six
feet from the door, and he went inside, and a little while after
he came out, and he had some oonversation with the Tammany
captain, and then the Tammany captain walked down the street
a ways, and the officer said to me, "I guess I will have to take
you in."
Q. The Tammany captai    said that to you? AL No; the
policeman said that to me.
Q. Had the Tammnany captain gone at-? A. No, sir.
Q. What did the policeman do with you? A. He locked me
up; he fetched me before Justice Welde, and he discharged mehe made a charge against me of electioneering right near the
polls.
Q. Had you done any electioneering there? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have any watchers certificate there with you  A
Yes, sir.
Q. What time of the day was it that this policeman did tbI?
A. About half-past 8 in the morning.. 
Q How long did they keep you there? A. About an hour.
Q. And then Judge Welde discharged you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you go? A. I took the car down to the pel.
in. place, and I met a policeman going down on the car, and he
said, "Are you satisfied now?" And I said, "If I see the Tammany captain within the lines of the polls, I will order you to
arrest him;" and afterward I was speaking to.this Tammavy
captain on the corner, and we were about 30 feet away from the
door of the polls, and the policeman came over to me again, and
he said, "Aint you satisfied; do you want me to take you Ie
again;" and I said, " If you take me in, you will have to take this
here man in."
Q. What did he   ay? A. He didn't say anything, but he
walked away.




408
Q Did you stay there the rest of the day?7 A. Yes aIm
~ All day long? A. Yes, sir.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What is your business? 'A. Carpenter.
Q. Where do you do business? A. One huindreid anti iweny.
four Elizabeth street.
Q. Are you In business on your own account?
Mr. Sutherlaud.-He is very deaf; you will have to speak
loud.
By Senator o h~adrey:
4. Are you a boss carpenter? A. Yes, sIr. 
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Do you say you are a boss marpener? A. Oh, no, s9r1 I
Q. Who ame you in business with? A. I work for Wiliam &
Christ.
Q How long have you been working for them? ~ Maree
and a half or four years.
Q. What time did you go to the polls that day? Al. Abeut
10 minutes to 6 o'clock.
Q. Did you talk with anybody there? A. Yes, sir; I was talk.
-ing to the lxummiany captabin and to the policemnan outside of the
'door.
Q. Had you not been doing anything?? A. That was another
officer that I was talking to.
Q. Hadn't you been doing anything before you got into this
trouble? A. No, sir.
Q. No-thing at all? A. I was justnpassing remarks about the.
weather; that is all.
Q T1alking about the weather, were you? A. Yes, sir; to the
officer.
Q. You talked about the weather tVo the officer, and he arrested
you for electioneering? A. Yes, sir; that Is the charge hemade against me.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Were you drinking anything Umti  morning? X Yes, sir;
I had a little.
Q How many drinks did you have before you were axrested?,
A  About three or four, I believe.
Q. You did not mix your drinks at all that morning?  ~ No
air.




6O9
By Mr.   eoi                            ':
Q. And thme you talked about tme weaiter and wee rested?
A. Yes, sin
Charles Ditel, called a  a witnes, was duly swon, and
testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherlarnd
Q. Where do you live? A. Fifty-eglht East Fourth street
Q. What is your business? A. Barber.
Q. Were you employed by Lewis Appel last fall? A. Yea sir.
Q. Where is your shop? A. Three hundred East Fifth street
Q. Was that in the district wheie Mr. Kempner was running
for the Assembly? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Appel have one of Mr. Kempaler's.ihographia b
his window? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that taken down at any time? A. It was taken:x*,
yes, sir.
Q. Bow long before election was that taken out? A. OThI e
or four weeks-no; about two weeks before electiot
Q. Were you there when it was taken down? A. Yes, sir;
I was inside the shop.
Q. Did you see what happened prior to that time?  L. No;
I don't remember exactly; I was busy at that time.
Q9 Did you see some man come and talk with anyone there?. I saw one man come and talk to the other man, the other
workanan, who worked on the second chair, who was not busy,
and he had a oonversation with him, but what the conversation
was about I don't know, but the bill was taken out, but who
took the bill out I can't say.
Q. How long before the bill was taken out was the eonversa
tion? A. Eight in the meantime.
Q. You mean right off? A. Yes, ir; right away,
((ross-examination waive.L)
Wstian Goit, called as a witness, was duly sworn, anad
tetified as follows:
Direct exainatio  by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. Three hundred ad sevateen
aet: Fifth street     i
Q. What is your business? A. Bartender.
Q. For whom? A. My father.
Q. Is that in the Assembly district where Mr. Kemnpaer wa
running for office last fall? A. Yes, sr.
L.       52




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410


/  Did you have Mr. Kempner's picture in yAur window last
ll? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did anybody come in there to see you about having it!aken out? A. No; they did not come; they called me outside.
Q. Who was it? A. I can not say; he said he was an offician,
Ird he asked me to take down the portrait
Q. To take down the portrait of Mr. Kempner? A. Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Was he a policeman? A. No, sir; he was in citizen's
elothes, but he said he was an official.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q He told you that he was an official? A. Yes, sir.
Q Did he give any reason for wanting it taken down? A.
No, air; not at all.
Q. What did you do about it? A. I took them all down.
Q. Did you hear anything about it after that? A. No, sir;
not until I was subpoenaed here.
(Cross-examination waived.)
Frank S. Savetta, called as a witness, was duly, sworn and
testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Nicolli
Q. Where do you live? A. In Fifth street
Q. What is your business? A. Barber.
Q. Where was your shop last fall? A. Three hundred and
orty-seven East Fifth street.
Q. Was that in the district where Mr. Kempner was running
fbr the Assembly? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have his pictures in your window t A. Yes, r;
I dd.
Q. Up to what time? A. I do not remember.
Q. A little while before election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then did you take them down? A. Yes, sir.
Qb What for? A. Two men came to my place and said, "ake
down that picture."
Qo Two men came and said you must take it down? A. Yes,
rir.
Q. Did you know the men? A. No, sir.
Q. Did they tell you who they were? A. No, sir.
Q. Did he give any reason why you should take it down t?
He sLys, " Take them out"
Q. Did he give you any reason? A. No, sir.




411l
9 Did you ever see the man before that or after? X. No, sir.
Q. Did they say that they had any official position? A. No,
sir.
Q. Did they tell you who sent them there? A. No, sir.
They just told you to take them down? A. Yes, sir.,. And then you took them down? A. Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Were they policemen? W. I do not know; two men came
to my place and said, "Take that portrait down."
Q. Did they have shields on? A. No, sir.
Q. Had you ever seen them before? A No, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen them since? A. No, sir; that was the
fist time I saw them. 
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did anyone ever tell you who they were? K No, Irj
they said, "Take down that portrait."
Q. And you took them down? A Yes, sir.
Q. Why did you take them down? A. I don't know.
Q. Have you got a barber pole outside of your door? A. Yes
sir.
Q. Suppose two men came in and told you to take down yowr
barber pole, would you do that? A I don't know anything
about that business.
Q. speak right out; did you know who those two men were?
A. Ne, sir.
Q. Well, answer my question; supposing two men came there,
Senator Lexow and myself, or Senator O'onnor and myself
came in there, and said you must take down your barber pole,
would you take it down? A. That is another thing.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did you think they were policemen? A. I don't Enow.
Q. Did you think they were? A. I thought so, but I didn't
know. 
Proceedings of the eighth meeting of the co nmittee, Maar&i
B1, 1894, at 10 a. m.
Present.-Senators Clarence Lexow, Edmund O'Connor, Daniel
Bradley and Cuthbert W. Pound.
Appearances same as before.
Thomas L. McOlintock, called as a witness, being iduly sworn,
tesgtfied as follows:




412
lrecf examinlaton by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Where do you reside? A. No. 8 Charlton freeL
Q. What is your business? A. Real estate.
Q. Where did you vote last fall? A. On the east side of Bayard
treet, between Vandam and Charlton.
Q. What is the number of the election district? A. The eighth.
Q. Of what Assembly? A. The Eighth Assembly.
Q. Did you see any policemen on duty there when you voted?
IL Yes, sir.
Q. How many? A. Two..
Q. How many inside? A. They were both inside the room.
Q. Do you know the names or numbers of,ilther of them? A.
No, sir.
Q. What time in the day did you vote? A. In the neighborLoed of 10 'cloc(k.
Q. Were either of the policemen near at hand when you voted?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell us what occurred? A. I had gone into the booth and
made up my ballots, and brought them out and handed them to
the poll clerk, and just as I handed them to bhin I was touched
on the shoulder, and I turned and found it was the policeman.
He had a red pencil in his hand, and asked me if I left that pen.
d in the booth.
Q. Asked you if you left that pencil in the booth?  L Yes, air
Q. What did you do or say? A. I said no, sir.
Q. In the meantime, what had become of your ballot? rA They
had been taken by the ballot clerk.
Q. Had they got into the box- taken by the inspector? A:
Tes, sir; I presume they had.
Q Had they disappeared? A. They had rone.
Q. You did not see them go into the box? A. Noq sid 
By Senator Bradley:
Q Did you hand the ballots to the ballot clerk together wten
ou.came out of the booth? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the inspector doing then? A. I handed the ballots to the ballot inspector.
Q. You mean you handed your ballots to the inspeotor? A.
Yca. sir.
By Chairman texowl
Q. And before you saw the inspector drop the Ballols Into the
tiox, you were touched on the shoulder? A. Yes, sir.




413


Oross-examintio on by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What is your business? A. Real estate office.
Q With what concern? A. Frederick A. Booth.
Q. Frederick A. Booth? A. Yes; sir.
Q Where is their place of business? A. Nineteen East SIKteentlh street.
Q Where, do you reside? A. Eight Ohiarlton street.
Q. How long have you had that residence? A. Since July.
Q.Of tbisyeaar? A.Yes, sir.
Q. Prior to that date where did you reside? A. One thousand nine hundred and eighty-eight Lexington avenue.,
Q. That is between what streets? A. Between One Hundred
and Twenty-first street and One Hundred and Twenty-seoondi
stree~t.
Q. How long did you live &ere? A. Two yeais and a half.
Q. Were you a member of the Republican organization in that
district? A. N, ir.
Q. When you left your residence in Lexington avenue and
went to Charlton street, did you attach yourself to any political
organiz~ation? A. No, sir.
Or have you been a member of any political organizatfo&
it any time? A. No, sir.
Q. No time? A. No, sir.
Q In politics,  I understood you to say, however, you were a
Republican?
Je~ator Bradley. —The question was not asked him at alL
Q What are your politics? A. I generally follow the Repub.
itean ticket; I vote for the man though as much as I can.
Q.I  beg your pardon? A. I do not follow the Repubisan
tkiket
Q That is, upo'n national questions? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And upon questions of national policy you are attaehed
to the Republicaa n party? A. Yes, sir.
Q But in local or municipal matters you vote for the best
man, according as you understand it? A. As I thi.
Q How long have you been with Mr. Booth? A. I am a li0'e.
over two years.
Wh. What was your occupation prior to that time? A. I wa.
with Richard A. Brude, corset busines&
Q4 I the corset business? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what capacity? A. I had charge of his New York offiw.
Q Was he a foreign manufacturer of crsets? A. He Imported corsets; yes, sir.
Q. He did what? A. He Imported corsets, and made hMis cw
corsert also.




414


T You had charge of his office in the city? X. Yes, sir.
9. Where was that? A. Four hundred and twenty Broadway.
Q. And how long were you with him? A. I was with him
about three years.. About three yeara? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you a native of this city? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you were educated in the schools here? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In the public schools? A. Yes, sir..
Q. Now, what time did you reach the polls on the morning of
the election? A. About 10 o'clock, in that neighborhood, from
10 to 11.
Q. About 10 o'clock? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you alone, or did someone accompany you? AL I
was alone. 
Q. Did you get your ballot in the usual way from the ballot
clerk? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And go into the booth by yourself? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And fled your ballots in the usual way? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then did you proceed with your ballots to the table in
front of the inspectors upon which the ballot-boxes rest? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Now, tell us over again, what you say happened theret
A. I handed my ballots to the inspector, and just as I did so,
I was tapped on the sholder, and I turned to see who tapped
me and the policeman held a pencil before my eyes, and asked
me if I had left that in the booth, and in the meantime the
ballots had gone. 
Q. In the meantimne the ballots had been deposited; now,
before the time that you were tapped on the shoulder, had
the ballots been placed on the different boxes? A. No, sir.
Q By the inspector? A. No, sir.
Q. What was the inspector doing with the ballots at the
time you were tapped? A. He had them in his hand the last
I saw them.         ' 
Q. He had them in his hand? A. Yes, sir; just taking them
as I was tapped and turned.
Q. Was he in the act of tearing off the stub? A. Not, that
I ean remember; no, sir.
Q. Not as you can remember? A. No, sir.
Q. Is it all you-enemember, the inspector had the ballots in his
han ds when you were tapped? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you turned back, didn't you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you mean to say before you turned back the Inspector
had distributed and deposited those ballots? A. As I thought
be had; they had gone.                             -.




415
*  You thinE th  the inspector was so agile that in nust the
twinkling of an eye and the turn of the head he could deposit
a number of ballots in the different boes? A. I do not see
how he could.
Q. How? A. I do not see how he could.
Q. He would have to be unusually expert to be able to Eo
that, would he not, because it was only a second or probaby
a second and a half in which your eyes were diverted from tie
boxes, wasn't it; it was just the turn of the head and back? A.
I would not say as to that
Q. Was it not a very short and insignificant period of time;
was there any more than the turn of the head as you were tapped
and turned back? A. It was time enouh for the ballots to
disappear; I don't know.
Q. Do you mean to say that you kept your head averted for
a minute, or a half a minute? A. It could readily be a half a
minute, I should judge.
Q. Half a minute; you turned your head one side for half a
minute? A. Yes, sir; I answered the question.
Q The only answer you gave to the question was "No" was
It not? A. That was all the answer I gave.
Q. Was there any frther conversation between you and the
officer? A. No, sir.
Q. Except the officer said, "Did you leave this pencil," and
you said "No;" that is all there was to it? A. That is all
Q. You want us to believe that in that small fraction of time
the inspector who held your ballots in his hands succeeded
in depositing them in the ballot-boxes against your will; yeu
want us to believe thatvt
Chairman Lexow.-He did not say that, Mr. Nicoll; he simply
said the ballots disappeared; he did not say they were deposited.
Q Well, I asked him; that is the implication from his testimony.
Chatiman Lexdw.-No; I do not think he has given testimonu
from which any such conclusion could be drawn. He simnop
says the ballots disappeared. The inference might be drawr
that they were under the table; that is the quickest way thej
could disappear.
Mr. Sutherland.-It is the same incident es that shown by
two other witnesses in some cases It was the red pencil,
and in each case it was the tapping on the shoulder by the
policeman, and it was at the identical moment when the ballots
had passed from the minds of the voter.
Mr. Nicoll.-I wish to say that the inference you desire to
draw fromn this testimony is that the police officer was in eombination with the inspectors




418


Mre. SutherIand.-Yes, sir.
Ar. Nicoll —For the purpose of defeafng Dlie will o the
Mr. Sutherland — Exactly; and the will of all the voters there
except those that voted with him.
Mr. NicolL-I asked him whether or not he inferred under
those circumstances; isn't that a proper question?
Mr. Sutherland. —I submit the inference of the witness are
not so valuable as the facts; we have the facts
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Do you desire us to believe that conclusion? '. It would
be a very natural conclusion, considering the action of the
afficer; my private opinion is that it was so.
Q. If you had left a pencil in the box, it would not be very
extraordinary for the officer to ask you whether you had left
a pencil there, would it? A. At first sight on the moment, It
did not; but when we consider it, it does; the officer has no right,
as I understand, to interrupt the voter after the votes leave him.
Q. You closed the door when you came out? A. No; it
swings to.
Q. If you left anything there, it was the duty of the officer 't
protect it, wasn't it; I say, it would be the duty of the officer
to collect anything left in the box if it was of any value? A. Yes;
if it was of any value; not a penny pencil.
Q. Or any property, whatever it might be, of whatever value,
bclonging to any voter? A. If there was any length of time
between my leaving it, it might; it was immediately after I left
ihe booth; it was about four steps.
Q. Did you entertain the opinion then, at that moment, that
yo, as a voter, had been defeated by the action of the offcer 
&. Not until two hours after; no, sir; not at that mnment
Q. You didn't at that moment? A. No, sir.
Q. It took you two hours after that time before you came to
that conclusion; I say, it took you two hours before you were
arIe to come to that conclusion? A. After I had heard one or
two others had been treated the same way; yes, sir.
Q. Then you came to the conclusion that your will had been
defeated? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then to whom did you make complaint that you had been
denied the right of suffrage at this election by the combination
of the officers and inspectors? A. To the grand jury.
Q. Did they indict them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The inspectors? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they tried? A. They were not, as far as I know.




417
Q. The indictments were dismissed?   A. They were dio
missed. 
Q. That is, they were indicted- inspectors were indicted 1i. 
the December grand jury - the special grand jury? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they were tried in the oyer and terminer in Februaryq
and dismissed by that court, were they, those indictments? A.
They were not brought to trial, I believe; some of them.
Q. What were the names of the cases? A. I don't remember.
Q. Don't you recollect the names of the inspectors? A. No
sir.
Q. Was the officer indicted? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you tell the grand jury this story in regard to this
officer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They did not indict him? A Not that I know of.
Q. You would have known that, wouldn't you? A. Moid
likely.
Q. They did not indict him, but they did indict the inspectorsm
A. 'Yes, sir.
Q. On your evidence, on the charge of defrauding you of your
vote? A. I hardly know whether it was on my particular evim
dence; it was mine along with the others.
James J. Martin, called as a witness, being duly eworn, testified
as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Sutherland:. Where do you reside?    A. One hundred and thlry-;tw
West Forty-eighth street
Q. What is your business at present? A. Police commissioner.
Q. Of the city of New York? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And president of the board? A. President of the board.
Q. How long have you been a police commissioner? A. Since,
May, 1.89. 
Q. And since what date have you been president of the board?
A! Since about the 1st of March, 1892.
Q. 1892; has the personnel of the board of commissioners
changed since you were appointed a commissioner? A. Yes, fir.
Q. Who went out and who came in, and when? A. I think
Commissioner Voorhis went out, about just previous to the time
I was elected president, and Commissioner Sheehan was
appointed in his place.
Q. There has been no other change except that? A. That is
the only change.
Q. Then the board of police commissioners, as now constituted,
s the same, with the exception of the substitution of Sheehan
L.       53




418


for Voorhees, that it has been during your entire connection
with the board? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who are the present commissioners? A. Commissioner McClave, Commissioner McLean, Commissioner Sheehan
and myself.
Q. How long has Mr. McClave been a member of the board?
LW. Well, he was a member of the board before I was appointed;
I could not say how many years before.
Q. And can you tell any more definitely about the length of
service of Commissioner McLean? A. He was also a commissioner before I was appointed; quite a number of years then.
Q. You don't know how many years either of them was before
you came in? A. I could not say as to that
Q. What was your business before you were appointed a police
commissioner? A. I was deputy register of the city of New.
BYork.
Q. For how long? A. Between two and three yeara
i Q. Is that a salaried office? A. Yes, sir.
Q What is the salary? A. The salary of the deputy register
was $5,000 a year.
Q What was your business before that? A. I was clerk of
the assessment commission; a special commission created by the
Legislature.
Q. How long did you hold that position? A. About six years
Q. Is that a salaried office? A. That is a salaried office; yes,
dr. 
Q. What was the amount of it? A. The salaried office, I think,
was, in the beginning, $2,500, and afterward was increased to
$3,000.
Q What position did you hold before that? A. I was clerk
in the finaince department.
Q. For how long? A. Six or seven years.
Q. What was the salary attached to that office? A. Well, i
raried at different times; I think the time I was secretary of
ibe assessment commission, or clerk of the assessment comnmisiiner, I think my salary was about $1,700, or $1,800 a year; I
forget which.
Q. And it ran from that up to what? A. It ran from that down
to about a thousand dollars, I think; when I went there it was
increased from time to time.
Q. The figure you first gave was the larger amount? A. Yes,
Q. What office did you hold before that? A. That carries me
back to 1873, I think, when I began in the finance department




.'i! ~ _  *./  * '''*'


419
Q.   at was 21 years ago? A. I think previoul  o that I was
clerk in the board of aldermea for one year.
Q. What is the slary connctbed with that position? A. I
think the salary at that time was $3,000 during the year 1872.
Q. And what position did you hold prior to that? A. Well, I
had nothing special for a year or two previous to that, a year, a
year or more previous to that.
Q. What business were you engaged in then? A. I was not
engaged in any business at that time.
Q. What position, if any, did you hold prior to that? X. I wa
employed at the headquarters of the department of the east
military employment
Q. Whereabouts? A. tI this city.
Q. In this city? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is, United States military forces? A. Yes, sit.
Q. In what capacity were you employed there? A. As a derE
Q. In what department? A. The Adjutant-General's office.
Q. How long were you such clerk? A. From 1866, I think, up
to about 1870.
Q. And from 1870 to 1872, you had no special occupation? A.
No special occupation.
Q. What position did you hold prior to 1866? A. Well, I had
been a soldier during the war.
Q. In what rank? A. Private.
Q. Enlisting when and discharged when? A. Enlisting In 1SiT
discharged at the close of the war in 1865.
Q. Prior to 1862, what was your business? A. I was a olerf
in a law office.
Q. For how long? A. Three or four yeara
Q. In whose office? A. In the oi office   oddingto Brother
17 Wall street
Q. That brings you back to 1858? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How old were you then?  A. About 12 years of age
Q. And you were 18 in 1862? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you enlisted? A. No, sir; I was 1& 
Q. You enlisted at 16? A. Yes, sir. 
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. What was the salary in connectonn with the militay
appointment?  A. Well, there were certain allowances, for pe%
sons engaged in that capacity, and it amounted, as near as J
can recollect now, to about 175 a mouth; it might be a little
more than that.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q After you left the department of the east, and before ye




420


entered the employ of the city government, how did you occupy
your time for a couple of years? A. Well, I think I was employed
temporarily during the year 1871; I think I was employed
temporarily in the department of public works, in a clerical
capacity for a short time.
Q. How else were you employed daring that time? A. I was
not otherwise employed during that time.
Q. You were entirely idle during that time? A. I was looking
for employment.
Q. Well, of course, since you entered the police commission you
have had occasion to familiarize yourself with the duties of the
office? A. Yes, sir; somewhat
Q. I assume that you were not familiar with those duties
before you were appointed a commissioner? A. Only in a general
way.
Q. From the history you have given us of your employment
previous to that time, it must be assumed that you had no
knowledge beyond that which the ordinary citizens have?
Mr. Nicoll.-Why must it be assumed?
Mr. Sutherland.-I ask the witness whether it is true?
A. I had some general knowledge, yes, sir; I was in the finance
department for a great many years, and was very familiar
with the city government generally, and its departments.
Q. You were a clerk in the finance department? A. I was, yes,
sir.
Q. On what particular branch-what set of books did you
have charge of? A. I was employed under Deputy Comptroller
Mr. Storrs, and my duties brought me a great deal in connection
with the board of apportionment.
Q. What had that to do with the management of the police
force? A. Made the appropriations for the various departments
of the city government
Q. And you knew then in advance of the recommendations of
the board what appropriations they were to request; did you
know any more than that about it? A. I did not know that in
advance.
Q. What did you know then that the ordinary citizen did not
know, on the subject of the management of the police?
Mr. Nicoll.-I think that is too broad.
The Witnesa —I had opportunities to learn something.
Chairman Lexow.-I think it is proper for the counsel to
elicit the fact whether or not the witness had any special knowledge, in regard to the police force in this city at the time of his
appointment.
Mr. Nicoll.- He has proved he has




421.Cg;
Q. Then what did you do after you were appointed; or what
steps did you take to familiarize yourself with the duties of the
office of police commissioner? A. Oh, I made an examination
of the affairs of the department in various directions, the statutes
bearing upon it, the rules and regulations of the board, and
various other matters of that character.
Q. And, of course, since you have been president of the board,
it has become necessary for you to familiarize yourself even more
minutely with the duties of the position? A. I can not say that.
Q. Well, of course, this committee will desire to know the
duties of police commissioners? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In order that they may intelligently understand the-in
order that they may get at the subject of the efficiency of the
police department? A. I would be glad to tell them all I know
about it. 
Q. And I assume you must know more about the duties of the
police comanissioners than any other member of the board; will
you please tell the committee what the duties of the police commissioners are.
Mr. Nioll.- That was all fixed by the statute.
Mr. Sutherland.- Is there any objection?
Mr. Nicoll.- No, sir.
Q. Proceed, Mr. Martin? A. The commissioners of police are
dharged, under the statute, with the adminiistratioi and discipline
of the police force; I suppose the administration of the police
force means that we shall tend to all the duties of administration
and regulations of appointment of officers of the police, and
promotions, transfers, the requesting of appropriations of the
finance authorities of the city, the incurring and payment of all
debts of the department, as charged under the statute.
Q. Yes? A. As charged upon the department
Q. What else? A. The discipline of the department, of course,
Is in reference to the complaints made against the members of
the force, and various breaches of the rules and regulations.
Q. What did the commissioners have to do with those? A.
The commissioners have the trial of all officers charged with
violations.
Q. As prosecutors or as trial court? A. As both, probably;
it is their duty to get the facts.
Q. As a matter of fact, you do sit, and sit substantially as a
court, do you not? A. As a matter of fact we do sit, substantially as a court.
Q. And pass judgment upon the truth or falsity of charges
against policemen? A. Yes, sii.




422


Q. And after you find them guilty, you pass sentence upon
them? A. Yes; we pass sentence upon them.
Q. What other duties are incumbent upon the police commissioners? A. Well, the board is divided up into committees; earh
committee is charged with the duties of the commission to look
after those particular duties.
Q. What committee are you? A. Well, I am, as president of
the board, I am chairman of the committee on rules and discipline
of the board; all charges against police officers are submitted to
me for examination and approval.
Q. In the first instance? A. In the first instance; and being
so examined and approved, the officer is placed on trial.
Q. That is to say, if charges are made against a policeman,
those charges do not bring him to trial before the board unless
you, in the first instance, we satisfied there is sufficient in the
charges to call for trial? A. No, sir; I do not examine the evidence; I examine the form of the complaint; I take it on the
ground that the complaint is properly made under the rules, and
that the evidence will be forthcoming at the trial.
Q. And if the complaint is sufficient in form, it goes before the
entire board? A. Yes, sir; it goes before the entire board; or
one of the commissioners usually presides at the trial in the first
instance; the commissioners rotate, holding the trials once in
each week.
Q. You said you were the committee on discipline? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. What else did you have to do with discipline besides trial
of cases? A. Well, I don't know of anything particular.
Q. I mean as the committee? A. I do not know of anything
particular.
Q. The entire board, I assume, formulate rules; don't they? A.
Yes.
Q. For the government of the police? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And amend those rules from time to time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. As facts brought before them may show necessity? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Are you charged in the first instance as a member of that
committee with introducing proper amendments? A. No, sir.
Q. That does not come under the province of your special committee? A. Not especially; no, sir; any member has a right to
propose an amendment to the rules
Q. What other committee is there besides the committee on
discipline? A. Excuse me, if I refer to a memorandum.
Q. Certainly, refer to anything you please? (Witness examines
memorandunL)




423


Mr. Nicoll.- - I do not know, Mr. Sutherland, whether you have
the last annual report of the department
Mr. Sutherland.- I think the last annual report is -not iu print.
Mr. Nicoll.- The last annual report 'is in printL
Mr. Sutherland.- I have it.
The Witness. We have the following committees: The cornnmittee on el-ection..
Q. And who is; that committee? A. Commissioners Me~lave,
Sheehian and McLean.
Q. Now, what does that committee have to do? A. The CoMmittee on election have charge of all matters pertaining to eleoflons; that is, the engagement of the vnarouz places for holding
the reggistration and election, the fittling up and furnishing the
same, the printing,, and the ordering and printing of -the ballots.
Q. And the distribution ot the ballots? A. And the distribulion of the ballots.
Q. And the gathering up of the returns? A. No, air; the
returns a-re sent to -as, directed by -the statute -to the ins'pector of election.
Q. Where are they sent? A. I -think the statute directs that
one of the three copies shall -be sent to the bureau of elections, the
second copy to the county clerk's office, and the third copy to
the clerk of the common comuciel of the board of aldermen..Q. And the bureau of elections consist of whom? A.. The
bureau of elections is a bureau under the police department, of
which -you mean the committee on electio~ns, of the bureau?
Q. W-ho constitutes the bureau of elections? A. The bureau
of elections Is a bureau in our department, in' which General
Ilodenhow is chief of the bureau.
Q. But the police commissioners as a body -  A. The police.
canmmissioners as a body h~ave nothing to do especially with
the bureau of elections; it is under our control; he is our.
appointee, as the chief of the bureau.
Q.Is that all the committees? A. No, sir.
Q. What is an-other one? A.- Committee on pensions? (bmmissioners McLean and Mc~lave are that commit-tee:- it has all
chairge of all applications for pensio0ns.
Q. Whiat is the next ciommittee? A. The committee on repairs
and supplies.
Q. Who are, they? A. Sheehan and Mc~lave.
Q.' Who next? A. The commit-tee on discipliner, myself andl
McLean and Sheehan.
Q. Are thoise all the committees? A. Those are the four
committees of the board.
Q. Exwctly; Mr. Martin, does any one commissioner have power




424
to issue orders, or do orders come as the work of the board? '
What sort of orders?
Q. Any orders that a police commissioner can issue; orderi
to the force? A. They come as the work of the entire board.
Q. Is that by statute or by any of your regulations? A. No;
I don't know exactly how to answer that question.
Q. What is the reason they come as the work of the entire
board? A. Because I do not suppose any one of the commissioners will assume to speak for the board.
Mr. Nicoll.-It is because the statute confers the power on
the entire board.
Mr. Sutherland.- I beg your pardon, Mr. Nicoll, I will examine
you later.
h-ainman Lexow.-I think it was entirely proper, inasmuoh
as this witness is the president of the board, to ascertain
whether he knew the duties of that office.
Mr. Nicoll.- When it comes to a question of law, there is often
difference of opinion.
Chairman Lexow.-Yes, sir; but the witness stated on the
stand he did not know whether it was a question of regulation
of the board, or a question of the statute; as I understand the
witness.
The Witness.- Of course the powers of the police department
devolve on the police board, and not on an individual
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You have these committees for the purpose of oonvenience?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And for the convenience of the board? A. Yes1 sir
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Now, Mr. Martin, through whom do your orders reach the
police force? A. Through the superintendent of police.
Q. And why is that; because of any statute or police regulation, or what? A. By the police regulation.
Q. And is that regulation for the purpose of giving dignity
and importance to the office of superintendent? A. He is che
executive officer of the police force; the chief executive officer of
the police force; ahd one of our first rules said, all -rders to the
police force shall be transferred and given by the superintendent
Q. And the theory is that his position as the cammanding
officer shall be-  A. He is in control of the uniform force.
Q Shall be made more important; is that it; that he may




.425


bhave gre~ter. Influence, greater force wim tMe mIen?  A. He Is
in absolute control.
Q. When was Mr. -Byrnes made superintendent? A. I think,
tn April, 1892.
Q. Who was hris predecessor? A. Superntendent Murray.
Q. And when did he leave the force? A. Just at that~ time.
Q. He was 46ck some time before that? A. He bad been ailink
for some time.
Q.And there. was an acting superintendent for a while? ~.
Chief Inspector oft Police Byrnes wais acting as superintendent.
Q. For how long prior to his% appointment? A. For nearly a
year, I1 think, thereabouts; as near as I can remember.
Q. And Byrn-es was substantially the superintendent for somctime before he was actually appointed, was he not? A. Yes,~ sir
Q. After Mr. Byrnes was made superintendent, did he manifest
some activity, with regard to the -violations of the Excise Law"!
A. I don't remember especially as to that.
Q. Was it not called to your attention by somebody? A. No,
Q~Mr. Blyrnes ever take a vacation? A.. Yes; he took a vacatio~n in the summer.
Q. Was Inspector Steers a member of the force then?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did youi send for Inspector Steers?, A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tna Mr. Byrnes' absence? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you direct him to send for the captain, and give hint
Instructions on the suibject of the enforcement of the Excise La~w?
'A". No, si1r.
Q. You did not? Had Byrnes been causing the arrest of vio —
lators of the S unday, law'? A. Yes, sir;- the police had, under
his direction, I suppose.
Q. Were those arrests greater in number than they had been
prior to that? A. I don't remember that, sir; there were quite
a large, number; it ran into the thousands.
Q. It ran into the thousands, didn't it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were those-. 
Chariman Lexow.-Get the date of this, Mr. Sutheirlan~i.
Q. Yes, sir; I will; those arrests commenced immediately after
Byrnes' appointment? A. No, sir.
Q. Hlow sootn after that? A. They had been running on before
his appointment.
Q. I understood you to say-soon after his,appointment there
was an unusual number of arrests? A. No, sir; I did not say so.
Q- Do you know how many arrests were 'made after Byrnes'
L      ~~4


I
11!         I. i. -






426
appdnf4nenti, between the date of Byrnes' appointhmenr and tS
first day of next January? A. I haven't made any examination.
Q You don't know from your own recollection? A. No
Q. But they ran into the thousands? A. Yes, sir; I mean
they ran into the thousands in each year.
Q. How many between the date of Byrnes' appointment and
the 1st day of January, 1893? A. I should think there must
have been in the neighborhood of 3,500 or 3,000 arrests during
that time.
Q. Didn't the liquor dealers make a complaint in writing on
that subject? A. No, sir.
Q. That summer? A. No, sir.
Q. Did the commissioners make any order on that subject
before the 1st day of January, 1893? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember the indorsement of an order by the commissioners, on the back of a written complaint, made by the
liquor dealers, on the subject of the teforcement of the Excise
Law? A. I remember that a committee, I think in 1891 -Q. Oh, no; I mean in 1892? A. No, sir; I do not
Q. There was no such thing in 1892? A. I don't recollect It
Q. When was it-in 1891?   A. I think in 1891.
Q. What time in 1891? A. I can not answer as to the time;
I think it was when Commissioner Voorhees was in the board;
I am sure it was.
Q. And he went out when? A. He went out in March, 1892;
and before that time, I should think it was the year previous,
there was a committee of citizens, not liquor dealers, as I under.
stand it, a committee of citizens that made some representations
to the board of police, about what was known as the spy system.
Q. Who constituted that committee? A. I don't recollect the
names now; the matter is on file in the department, I think,
because Senator Boyd was chairman of the committee-John
G. Boyd.
Q. Is there a communication on file? A. A communication i
o file; I think it is.
Q. Then it is where you can produce it if it is desired? A
Yes, sir.
Q. Who else were with him? A. Several other persons that
I do not now remember; their names appear on the oommunication, I think.
Q. Do their names appear on the communication? A. I think
it does.
Q. You say this communication or complaint was with refer
ence to the spy system? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What spy system? A. The system of police officers being
sent out in citizen's clothes.




427 -Q To do what? Xa To spy on the keepers of saloons
Q. When; spy what times? A. At all times.
Q At all times? A. Yes.
Q. Somebody objected to that then? A. They objected to I,
and gave their reasons for it
Q. What reasons did they give? A. They said they thought it
was injurious to the police force, and that a great many things
were done by police officers who were not in uniform that was
improper; and substantially said that some of these officeis were
taking advantage of their opportunities.
Q. What advantage did they complain these officers took? A.
Well, they intimated that they were taking money from some of
these saloon keepers.
Q. Did they intimate any names of men that were taking
money from saloon keepers? A. I don't think they did.
Q. Did they intimate the names of any saloon keepers that
were giving up money to them? A. I don't think they did.
Q. They simply indicated in a general way that the policemen
were taking advantage of this opportunity to collect money? A.
And that this was a bad system.
Q. Bad system-why?    A. Because officers in citizen's clothes
would do more than in uniform.
Q. They were afraid it would demoralize the police force? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. What action did the board take on that communication?,A. The board passed a minute on the subject, which is on file.
Q. And in substance is what? A. In substance agreeing with
the committee of citizens that this was improper.
Q. And directing the policemen to discontinue visiting these
places? A. Yes, sir; that was the effect of it.
Q. Is it not true, Mr. Martin, that before that resolution was
adopted by your board, policemen had been directed by somebody,
either the police ommissioners, or the superintendent, or the
inspectors, or the captains, to visit liquor dealers at hours when,
by law, they are prohibited. from selling? A. I suppose that is
so; the directions, whatever they were, were issued by the superintendent, and inspectors and captains, and not by the commis,
sioners
Q. Not by the commissioners? A. No, sir.
Q. Wasn't it the complaint that these policemen in citizen's
clothes were visiting the saloons at hours when, by law, they are
required to be closed? A. No, sir; there wasn't any complaint
about that; no, sir.
Q. No complaint about that? A. No complaint about that.
Q. Were the arrests that followed the visits of these citizens




428


In citizen's clothfes upon the charge tlat ti e safoon Ifeeper was
selling liquor at an hour when the law forbid it?  A. In some
cases; yes.
Q. Wasn't it so in all of them? A. No, sir; it was not; that is,
I am speaking now from information, not from any positive
knowledge.
Q. What other charges did you understand? A. I understood
in a groat many cases the charges made that arrests of that
character were for exposure, not the selling.
Q. Oh, for the exposure?  A. For exposure.
Q. There is no law against exposing a bottle of whisky, is
there? A. I think the courts have so held, and discharged the
persons arrested in these cases.
Q. There is no law against the exposure of liquors at such
hours that the law permits them to be sold, is there? A. No, sir.
Q. And the charge in these cases was that they were exposing
for sale when the law forbids the sale? A. I suppose that is so.
Q. So in every one of these cases, the charge was against the
conduct of the saloon at an unlawful hour, wasn't it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And these citizens -not liquor dealers - who came to see
you, complained that the police ought not to do that; did they?
A. No, sir; they did not.
Q. What did they complain of? A. They complained about the
actions of the persons-of police officers while in citizen's
clothes.
Q. Going into these places? A. There was no complaint about
arrests for keeping open at illegal hours.
Q. Didn't they complain because these policemen went into
the saloons at hours when the law said they should be closed?
A. No, sir; they did not.
Q. But the arrests were for those charges? A. The probability
is they were.
Q. And the police board of commissioners adopted a resolution directing the policemen to discontinue? A. No, sir; we did
not go so far as that; we said in our-opinion we believed it was
improper.
Q. Why did you believe it was improper? A. Because the
board thought that there were opportunities for police officers
while in citizen's clothes to do many things that were improper.
Q. What things? A. Taking money from liquor dealers and
other people.
Q. You have mentioned that; what else? A That mainly,
Q. Were you afraid the officers would indulge in intoxicating
liquors? A. Yes, sir; we were also.




I/


429


i. Was that one of the reasons why you discontinued it? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Is there a rule in your list of regulations against the indulging by policemen to any extent in intoxicating liquors? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. You sometimes fined a policeman for getting intoxicated?
A'. We did - we usually dismiss them.
Q. You regard it as essential to the discipline of the force that
the men should be sober? A. Very essentiaL'
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Just let me ask you a question? Do you mean to be
understood that the committee of citizens waited upon the police
commissioners, out oi sympathy for the police force, and not out
of sympathy for the liquor dealers? A. I can not answer that;
the communication speaks for itself, and it is on file, and can be
found.
Q. You said the particular reason was the going into saloons
by police in citizen's clothes was injurious to the police force? A.
I said that is the view the board of police took of it.
Q. Was that the view the committee took of it? A. That is
the view I took of it.
2Q. Did they make that representation to you? A. I don't recollect exactly the representation they made, it is so long time ago;
the communication is there, and I have not seen it for a number
of years; it is on file.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. This committee did not go there to represent themselves as
liquor dealers? A. No, sir; they had somw other title; I doant
now recollect.
By Mr. Sutherland: 
Q. Weren't they a committee of the 0itizens Association of the
city of New York? A. I don't remember just what they called
themselves.
Q. Isn't that the local branch of the State Liquor Dealers Association? A. No; it was not any branch of the Liquor Dealers
Association.
Q. Now, are you sure you did not send for Inspector Steers in
that connection? A. At that time?
Q. In that connection; either before or after that visit? A.
For what purpose?




430


Q. For the purpose of getting instructions about the manner
n which the Excise Law should be enforced? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you instruct Inspector Steers to send for the captains
and talk with them? A. No, sir.
Q. Did Inspector Steers send for the captains and talk to them?
L I don't know what he did.
Q. Isn't that a matter of record in your office? A. It ought
to be; yes, sir.
Q. It is a fact, is it now? A. If he sent for them it is ye,
sir; it is a matter of record.
Q. And you say you never gave any orders to Steers on that
subject? A. On the enforcement of the Excise Law?
Q. Yes. A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever give Mr. Steers personally any orders at
ifl? A. Yes, sir.
Q How many times? A. Once.
Q. When? A. I think it was sometime in 1892; I don't recollect exactly the date.
Q. While Mr. Byrnes was away? A. Mr. Byrnes was away
as it happened; he was away at the time - on a Saturday.
Q. On a Saturday; that is quite right; Saturday iS the day
before Sunday, is it not? A. I think it is.
Q. Did Mr. Steers come here? A. Mr. Steers was in command
at the time.
Q. What orders did you give him? A. I said to Inspeotor
Steers that I understood the captains were sending a great
many of their men out in citizen's clothes.
Q. Yes? A. And that I desired he should call the attention
of the captains to the minute adopted by the board of police at
the time I mention; in 1891, I think it was
Q. Yes? A. Tat is all I said to him.
The Chairman. —Fix the date, Mr. Sutherland.
The Witness. I think it was 1892.
Q. It was in 1892, and after Mr. Byrnes had been appointed,
and one day when he was absent? A. Yes sir; I think it was
it the summer.
Q. Not a long time after Mr. Byrnes was appointed? A. I do
not think it was a long time; he was appointed in April, and I
think it was in June.
Q. You are getting quite close to the date, I guess? A. I
am trying to tell you as near as I can recollect
Q. Did you ask him to send for the captains and communicate
this information to them? A. I told him I thought he ought to
send a communication to the captains; I thought he would send
it instead of sending for the captains.




431


Q. You don't know personaly wlid tl he did? A I do noe
Q. Mr. Byrnes was superintendent? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why didn't you send the order through himn? A. I came
to talk to Superintendent Byrnes and see what he did; I
said to Inspeetor Steers-I found Superintendent Bymes was
absent for the day without my knowledge - the first knowledge
I had of it.
Q. Why didn't you wait until he got back? A. I did not think
it was necessary; I would have said the same thing to him.
Q. He was superintendent? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why didn't you wait until Byrnes got back? A. I did not
know there was any necessity for it
Q. Were you in haste because the next day was Sunday? A.
Not at all.
Q. This interview  occurred on Saturday?  A. Yes, sir; I
expected to find Superintendent Byrnes when I went there.
Q. How did it happen you went to call Mr. Steers' attention
to this? A. I found him in command.Q. How did it happen you went there at all on that errand?
A. I am there every day.
Q. What sent you there on that pairticular errand on that day?
A. My attention was called to the fact that the captains were
sending the: men out in citizen's clothes in more than the ordinary
number.
Q. You heard that through this committee? A. No; that was
a long time before.
Q. This was before the committee came? A. Yes, sir.
Q. From whom did you hear this interesting informatibn?.
I do not recollect; it was general information.
Q. It was of sufficient importance for you to act upon at once?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you could not wait until Monday? A. Yes, sir; I
could have waited until Monday.
Q. But it was of such importance that you concluded not to
wait? A. I thought that was the time to go.
Q. Didn't the personal appearance of the one who gave you the
information make any impression on your mind? A. No, it did
not.
Q. And you are utterly unable to remember who he was? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Was it more than one individual? A. I think I heard it
from several individuals.'
Q. How did you hear it? A. Casually on the street, I think.
Q. And from this casual talk on the street, you went to Inspeo,,
tor Steers? A. To Inspector Steers; yes, sir.




432
T Oitrmainn Jexow.- You have not fixed the date yef, Mr. Suthe.
land.
Q. It was the month of June, 1892, and on Saturday; there
are but four Saturdays in that month? A. Yes, sir.
Q. With whom had you consulted about issuing this command
to Inspector Steers before you gave it out? A. I did not consult
with anyone.
Q. Not with your associates on the police board? A. No, sir;
they were not there.
Q. You have a regulation, don't you, that the commends which
go to the superintendent must emanate from the entire board?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you delegated by the entire board to give this order?
A. No, sir,
Q. Was your action a violation of the police regulation? A.
I don't so regard it; this order had been sent to the superintendent when it was voted.
Q. I understood you to say this was before the communicatioa n
from the citizens' committee? A. What is that?
Q. Didn't you say a moment ago that this incident occurred
before the communication? A. I certainly did not; no, sir.
Q. You did not say so? A. I did not; I said this citizens'
communication came to us in 1891, and this minute or order of
the board was on the subject as voted at that time; it was then
sent to the superintendent; this matter of communication to
Inspector Steers occurred in June, 1892, as near as I can fix it.,By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You did state this occurred previous to the meeting of the
citizens' committee? A. Which citizens' committee?
'Q. Of 1891? A. I certainly did not
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You did not understand it? A. No, sir; I did not
Chairman I4xow.- You are on record. That is the statement
that has gone down.
Mr. Nicoll.- Whatever the stenographer says I will accept
The Witness —I did not intend to make that statement  The
citizens' committee was before the board of police in 1891, and
the minute was adopted at that time, and sent to Superintendent
Murray.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You say, if we correctly understood you, tkhat you misspoke
yourself? A. I did misspeak myself, if I said that.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. We all make these slips, you know; only we should try to




-. I


433
i1derstiand each other clearly, that is all; then, at the time you
call for Acting Superintendent Steers, you knew of other complaints on this subject besides those you have received oasually
on the street; and you had in mind this written complaint on file
with the board, hadn't you? A. Yes, sir; of course I had.
Q. Now, did you, in adopting this resolution of the board, with
regard to the visit of the police in citizen's dres, act upon any
other information, or have any other reason than the information
and the reasons presented by this committee? A. No, sir.
Q. And when you went to Mr. Steers in June of the following
year, were you moved by any other reason except the resolution
adopted by your board the previous year? A. My attention had
been called, as I say, to some men being sent out in citizen's
clothes, about that time; and I thought it was the proper thing to
do; I thought it was a bad thing, for the reason that I had voted
for this minute in 1891.
Q. What had occmrred between the adoption of this resolution
by the board and this meeting with Steers which led to the police
offices going out in citizens clothes?  A. Nothing that I
know of.
Q. Nothing you know of? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know that Supeintendent Byrnes read to 4he captains the order or the resolution which you, had adopted? A. I
do not.
Q. How? A. I do not.
Q. Did you know he had told them they must nevertheless stop
the violation of that law? A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. Do you understand that he was, himself, sending men out
in citizen's dress to learn whether the law was violated or not?  '
W. No, sir; I do not.
Q. Who did you suppose was sending these poliemen out? A.
I supposed it was the captains of the precincts. 
Q. Of their own motion? A. Yes
Q. What captains? A. All the captains.
Q. All the captains? A. Yes, sir; I suppose so.
Q. And you wanted to put a stop to that practice on th'e part
of the captains? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Without consulting any of your associates you told Mr.
Steers to send for the captains? A. I did not.
Q. Or communicate to them? A. I told him I thought he should
call their attention to that order of the board.
Q. Did yon nnderstand he did? A. I think he did from what
I heard afterward; I don't know what effect it had.
Q. You don't know what effect it had? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever talk to the superintendent about it? A. I had
some talk with him the following Monday.
Q. Where was that? A. In his office.
*     L        Hi




434


Q. Wht was that talk? Ai We had some explanations as to
why I had spoken to Steers; I told him I camie there to see him
oan the subject, but unfortunately he was away for the day, and
that I spoke to the acting superintendent as I had intended to
speak to him.
Q. Did you tell him why you did not wait until Monday? A.
No, sir; that is the explanation I made; and he sewied to be satisfied with it
Q. I did not ask about that; did you tell him that you knew
he was going to be back on Monday; that your visit was on
Saturday? A. I understood he was only away for Saturday.
Q. And you did not give him any explanation of your reason
for acting before his return?  A. No, sir.
Q. Are you a member of the general committee of Tammany
Hall? A- I am; yes, sir.
Q. How long have you been a member of that committee? A.
A great many years&
Q. In what Asembly district do you reside? A. Dwenty-firmt
Assembly district.
QO Are you the recognized district leader of Taimmany Hall for
that district? A. I think that is what they call it
Q. How long have you occupied that position?  A. Quite a
number of years.
Q. You say that is what they call it; what do you call it? LA
I am a member of the executive committee.
Q. For what Assembly district?    A. Fo   that Asseable
iistrict.
Q. Is there a member of the general committee for each
Assembly district of the city? A. There was; there are two this
year.
Q, Each district has a representative on the executive committee; is that it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tae member of that district is called the Tamimany Hall
leader in that Assembly district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is the position you occupy in the Twenty-first? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And that is the position you have occupied for how many
years? A. Six or eight year.
Q. All the while you have been police commissioner? A. And
before it.
Q What are the duties of the members of the executive committee, so far as relates to the district?
Mr. Nicoll.- One moment; Mr. Chairman, is there any reason
for going into that questio. as to the duties of the general execo
itive committee of a political order?




435. halirman Lexow.-It seems to me if the duties of the district
leader in any way menace the duties of the political official it is
a very proper subject of inquiry: If there is any conflict between
the two offices. It may be a man can not be police oommissioer
at the same time he acts as district leader.
Mr. Sutherland. I will come to that later.
Mr. Nicol.- In that view it seems proper.
Q. Now, Mr. Martin, I do not care to go into what you do in
Tammany Hall; that is a matter that does not concern us; but
what did you have to do in the Assembly district in your position
as district leader; what are youir duties there?  A. Well, I suppose he conducts the local organization more than any other
member.                                1
Q. Anything else? A. Nothing special.
Q. Do you have to select the captains for each election ditrict?
A. At election times; yes, sir.
Q. That means once every year, does it not? A. It means once
each year; yes, sir.
Q. How long in advane of election day are tiese captains
selected? A. Well, in the Twenty-first district usually within
a month of election.
Q. And you not only have to select them, but give them your
instructions, don't you? A. Well, there are very little insructions.
Q. But what they are you give them; don't you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you are held respojsible for the efficiency of their
iwork, are you not?- A. I suppose so; to a certain extent.
Q. As district leader, do you not have charge of the disposition or distribution of patronage?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it not true that all patronage coming from Tammaay
Tall or al1 app1iica llons for office coining to Tainimanay Hall,
are referred to you as leader in that district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it not true that as district leader you are required to
obtain places for men in your district? A. Yes, sir; to some
extent.
Q. Those that seek positions rom your district come to you?
A. To some extent.
Q. You are the authorized channel through whom their wishes
are communicated to. Tammnany Hall, are you not? A. Not
entirely; but mainly so.
Q. Mr. Martin, as the district leader in the Twenty-first Assembly district, are you the head of that organization calle  for
hort, a club? A. No, sir.
Q. You have no club in that district? A. No, sir.
Q. No social club? A. No, sir.




430


Q. Is ynr distrcf an exception? X. Well, there are others
Q. There are others? A. Yes, sir.
- Q. Is it not true that there is a club in every Assembly district in the city? A. I don't know that.
Q. You don't know  that; is justice Barney Martin your
brother? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What district does he live in? A. In the Eighth Assembly
district.
Q. Is he the district leader of Tammany Hall in that district?
A. He is; yes, sir.
Q. Does he have a club? A. I think so.
Q. What is the name of it? A. The Iroquois Club.
Q. Is he the president of it? A. No, sir; I don't think so.
Q. Do you know the Pequod Club? A. I have heard of it.
Q. Where is that? A. It is on the west side of the city.
Q. In what Assembly district? A. I think the Thirteenth
Assembly district.
Q. Who is the district leader there? A. My colleague, Mr.
Sheehan.
Q. Mr. John C. Sheehan? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is he the president of the club? A. I do not know that.
Q. You say you have no club in your district? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever visited Commissioner Sheehan's club? 2.
Yes, sir.
Q. Found policemen there? A. No, sir; never.
Q. Never saw one there? A. No, sir.
Q. Are there any policemen that belong to that club? K I
can not answer that.
Q. Have you ever seen the list of names? A. No, sir.
Q. Ever visited your brothers dSub? A. Yes, sir; I have been
there, yes sir.
Q. Ever seen a policeman there? A. No, sir.
Q. Ever see the list of names? A. No, sir.
Q. Don't know whether any policemen blelong to that or not?
A. No, sir; I do not know.
Q. Do you know whether any member of the police force in the
city of New York is a member of any one of these district clubs?
A. I don't know anything about it; if they were, I don't think
there is any harm in it.
Q. You say you visited these clubs? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have a side bar there? A. No, sir.
Q. Sell liquor there? A. Well, I did not see any liquor sold;
no, sir.
Q. See any drink there? A. I was there one night at the
Pequod Club; I think there was a reception there, and there was
refreshments at different places in the clubhouse.




437
Q. How many times have you ever viaited the Peqipd Club?
A. I think I was there once; and I am not sure but twice; but I
am not clear about it.
Q. Haven't you been there except on the reception? A. No,
sir.
Q. How many times have you visited your brother's club? A
I think I have been there twice.
Q. No reception there? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see any liquor drank there? A. I think I called
there to see my brother, to find him.
Q. I want to know if any liquors were drank there? A. I do
not recollect any, sir; they probably have liquors there, though,
as they do in all other clubs.
Q. Is it not true that in all these district clubs liquor is sold
to the members? A. Probably so; they do in the Uuion League.
Q. Are you a member in the Union League? A. No, sir.
Q. Is there card-playing going on there? A. Probably so.
Q. Do you know whether any of these district clubs have a
license? A. I don't know anything about it, sir.
Q. Did you ever hear they had? A. I never thought anything about it.
Q. Now, if you should learn that policemen belonged to these
clubs, and visit them, and play cards, and drink liquors, bought
at that bar, would you consider that their conduct was detrimental to the efficiency of the police? A. If carried to excess,
yes.
Chairman Lexow.-What is the answer?
Mr. Sutherland.- "If carried to excess, yes."
Q. You say you have never heard of any circumstances of that
sort?, A. No, sir; I never have.
Q. As the Tammany Hall leader in your district, you are held
responsible by Tammany Hall for the results on election day,
are you not? A. Well, I suppose to some extent; it is a pretty
hard district to hold anybody responsible for.
Q. I have no doubt, sir; but what I want to say is, you are
expected to be vigilant? A. To do the best I can.
Q. You do the best you can in your district for your party? A.
Yes, sir.,
Q. Do yo-u think a person occupying that position, and having
those duties imposed on him, can be fair and impartial police
commissioners? A. I do; yes, sir.
Q. That is your experience, is it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You never found yourself hampered in the discharge of
your duties as police commissioner by any political complica&
tions? A. Not the slightest. 




4308


Q. Yqp make appointments upon the police force? at Yes,
sir; I recommend appointments on the police force; I do not
make them, but the board makes them.
Q. But each member of the police board is credited with his
share of the appointments, ita't he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your share falls to you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it is not a smaller share than the oters?  I. It is
just equal to the others.
Q. And when you make these appointments, do you find that
your duties as a Tammany Hall district leader ever come into
conflict with your duties as police commissioner? A. I do not
Q. Do you make these appointments upon the request of influential people? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Upon the request of men engaged in politics? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Many of them are political appointments, are they not,
pure and simple? A. They might be so regarded-no, sir, these
men are all qualified for appointment and have been examined
by the civil service and everyone qualified for appointment.
Q. Undoubtedly; there is no question about that; but isn't it
true that many of these appointments are made upon the direct
recommendation of the police of Tammany Hall? A. No, air.
Q. Is it not so? A. All things being equal, I accept the recomO
mendation of political friends.
Q. Is it not true, that many of these appointments are made
upon the direct recommendation of men influential in Tammaiay
Hall? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Martin, as district leader, have you ever appointed anybody on the police force? A Personally?
Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who? A. I do not now recollect the number.
Q. How many? A. I should think in five years probably 10.
Q. And the same proportion since you became commissioner as
before? A. I do not understand you.
Q. You were a district leader before you were a police commissioner, and as district leader you obtained appointments on the
police force, as district leader? A. From time to time.
Q. As district leader you undertook to make recommendations
to the police force; what I want to know is, whether the recommendations since you became police commissioner are about the
same in number as they were prior? A. I must admit they are a
little more.
Q. How many more?      A. I would say I have probably
apploi.ted 10 in all; I suppose before that, in the same length of
time, I might have obtained five appointments.
Q. About double that? A. Yes, sir; probably so




439


~ Q. Have any of these men who were recomeimnded to the board
by you as district leader been complained against before yo, as
police commissioner? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many of them? A. I can't say.
Q. For what offense? A. Various breaches of the rules
Q. What breaches of the rules? A. I could not answer that;
absence from posts.
Q. Didn't you naturally take a particular interest in those
gentlemen? A. No, sir; not any more than any other member
of the force.
Q. Wouldn't a complaint against them make a deeper impression on your mind? A. No, sir; not a particle.
Q. You are unable to say what particular offense was charged
against them? A. I could not say definitely on that subject;
I recollect one case.
Q. What was that? A. I recollect one case where a man had
been complained of quite frequently.
Q. How many times had he been complained of? A. Quite a
number of times
Q. How many is "quite a number;" 2 or 200? A. I should
think 8 or 10 times.
Q. Oan you remember some one of those 8 or 10 oomplaints?
A. I was going to say he seemed to be a very bad officer, and
finally he was charged with intoxication, and was tried for timt
offense and was dismissed from the force.
Q. What is his name? A. His name is Beheydt.
Q. When was that? A. Within a year.
Q. Is there another instance of a discharge from the force,
from the list of those who were appointed on your recommendation as district leader of Tamnnany Hall? A. I don't think
there is another one; no, sir.
Q. But there are other instances of charges against these mtie
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many of them? A. Not a great many.
Q. How many? A. I should think there was charges against
probably two or three or four of them.
Q. And how many charges against each one of these three
or four? A. I could not answer that.
Q. More than one against each? A. I think so, yes.
Q. Before whom were the charges investigated? A. T could
not say; some were before myself.
Q. Now, do you think you could sit as an impartial judge,
having recommended one of these men as district leader of your
district? A. Yes.
Q. To yourselves as a board of police commissioners? A. Yes
sir.
Q. And then, having received complaint to yourselves as board
of police commissioners against this man whom you reema



440


mended, as district leader, you think, in that case, you oould sit
as impartial trial judge? A. Yes, sir; I do.
Q. And that is your idea of the sort of impartiality that ought
to be dealt out to the force? A. I was there to do my duty, and
was going to do it.
Q. Exactly; Mr. Martin, you are well known to the police force,
are you not, throughout the city? A. I think so; yes, sir.
Q. They feel, of course, under more or less obligation to you?
A. I don't know that
Q. They know that you are their superior officer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That you have the power df appointment, transfer, removal
and promotion? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then they naturally would feel obligated to serve you in
any way compatible to their duties, wouldn't they? A. I can't
say that; some of them would, I suppose.
Q. They lkow also that you are the Tammany Hall tl1arict
leader in your district, don't they?  A. Yes, sir; t Sppose
they do.
Q. There is no guess work about it? A. No, sin
Q. It is generally understood? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you select the policemen that are to serve on election
day? A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. Who does? A. The superintendent of police
Q. The superintendent of police? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does he select the policemen that are to serve at all the
polling places? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How does he get the names of the policemen that are to
serve at each election district? A. I don't know.
Q. Did you ever ask him? A. No, sir.
Q. Don't you know what policeman is going to serve at your
voting precinct? A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. Before election day? A. I do not.
Q. You mean to say you have nothing to do with the selecting
of policemen in your Assembly district who shall serve on election day? A. I mean to say I never paid any attention to what
policeman served in the Twenty-first district on election day.
Q. You never knew, and never cared who camle there? A. No,
sir.
Q. Where is the Twenty-first Assembly district? A. It is
located between Fortieth and Eighty-sixth streets, and between
Park avenue and Seventh avenue, and between Fortieth and
Fifty-ninth streets.
Q. In what would be termed the resident portion of the city?
A. "The silk stocking district."
Q. Any particular disorder occurring there on election day?
A. No, sir; I don't think so.
Q. You never heard of any in that district?  A. Yes, sir; there
has been some.




441
Q. Who designates to the appointing officer the policeman. that
shall serve in their Assembly district? A. I don't know that, sir.
Q. Did you ever hear? A. No, sir.
Q. You say Mr. Byrnes appoints them all? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you never learned what sort of requests are made him
on that subject? A. No.
Q. Never heard of it? A. No.
Q. You are familiar with the rules and regulations of your
department? A. To some extent, yes.
Q. You help make tlwm? A. They were made before I got
there; there is a pretty large book; it is mard to know them all.
Q. I don't ask you to specify them? A. I am fairly familiar
with them; yes, sir.
Q. Is there a regulation in your department prohibiting policemen from taking part in political conventions and from assisting
in the nominating of candidates, etc.? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You consider that a proper regulation, don't you? A. Yes,
sir; very proper.
Q. Undoubtedly, for the efficiency and discipline of the force?. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is because, in your judgment, policemen ought
not to interfere in politics, ought they? A. I think they ought
not to actively interfere in politics.
Q. You have met policemen at conventions, haven't you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Never? A. No.
Q. You are a frequent attendant upon conventions? AL Yes,
sir.
Q. Of your political party? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Both State and county? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Assembly? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You go nearly every time, don't you? A. Every time when
there is a convention to be held in which my district is
represented.
Q. You go to State conventions, don't you, almost every year?
A. My district is represented there.
Q. You calculate to attend political convention, don't you
generally? A. Yes, sir; I am in politics.
Q. Haven't you seen policemen there? A. No.
Q. Never? A. No, sir.
Q. Mr, Martin, how long has the Pequod Club been in existenee?'
iA. I can't answer that.
Q. Is it longer than two years past? A. I don't Know.
Q. How long has your brother's club been in existence? A.
A great many yeas.
Q. And yet you say you never have learned that policemen
belonged to these clubs nor frequent them? A. No, sir; I hav
not learnt it.
L.       5


r
*~  *s  em,



442. Have you never talked with the inspector about it?  L
Q. Or have they never talked with you about it? A. No, sir.
Q Have you never talked with the police captains about it?
L. No, sir.
Q. Have none of them ever talked with you about it? A. No,
dir.
Q. Has there any complaint reached your ears from the inspectwos or captains with regard to a demoralization to the men for
attending these clubs? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever talked to Superintendent Byrnes about it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When? A. Within a year.
Q. When, within a year? A. Well, since election, I thinkl
Q. How, sir? A. Since the election.
Q. Since last election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whereabout was that talk? A. Either it his room or in
lay room.
Q. What brought up the subject? A. Well, he told me he
thought it was a bad thing for the force.
Q. He thought it was a bad thing fo r the force? A. To have
members connected wit political associationa
Q. To have members of the force connected with political
associations? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He told you he thought that was a bad thing? A. Yes, ar.
Q. What did you tell him you thought? A. I agreed wi&k
him.
Q. What else pased between you? A. Well, we talked some
on that line.
Q. Tell us what the talk was. A. I do not recollect the exact
onversation.
Q. Any club mentioned? A. No, sir; not at that time.
Q. Did you understand what clubs he was referring to? A.
No, generally, I suppose he was referring toQ. Did you not understand he was referring to the Pequod
Club? A. No.
Q. You'r brother's club was the Iroquois Club? W. Yes.
Q. Did you not understand he referred to the Iroquois Cla?
A. I suppose they were included; they were not specially mentioned.
Q. What clubs did you suppose he included? A. Political
aiubs in general.
Q. Did you gather from Superintendent Byrnes that these
dubs existed all over 1fh city? A. Yes, sir; quite a number oi
them 




443


Q. Did you understand that policemen belonged to almost all
tkese clubs? A. Yes, sir; he rather spoke that way.
Q. Did he tell you he knew nothing about it himself? A. No;
he did not say anything special about it.
Q. But he called your attention to the fact that it was a wrong
thing, and detrimental to the police force? A. Yes; he thought
it was.
Q. What did you do about that after that?  A. I spoke to the
members of the executive committee in Tammany Hall about it.
Q. What else did you do about it? A. I told them they ought
to get rid of these policemen in their clubs.
Q. To whom did you tell that? A. The members of the exeeutive committee of Tammaany Hall.
Q. What else did you do about it? A. I could not reach the
other side, of course.
Q. What else did you do about it? A. That is all.
Q. Did you ever go to your police captains about it? A. No,
sir.
Q. Ever go to your inspectors about it? A. No.
Q Ever request anybody to give you the names of those policemen? A. No, sir.
Q. Ever ask Mr. Byrnes to make a report to you in writing on
the subject? A. No, sir.
Q. But you went to Tammnany Hall? A. Yea
Q. Why did you go there? A. I took occasion to speak in
Trmmany Hall about it because there I could reach people from
different Assembly districts; I have spoken to representatives of
the different districts about it in my office.
Q. Why did you go to the executive committee of Tammany
Hall with this specially? A. I did not go specially.
Q. Why did you bring it up there? A. Why, because I thought
it was a proper thing to advise these men to keep policemen
oat of their clubs as far as possible. 
Q. Did you think Tammany Hall was conerned with the
efficiency.of the police of this city? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you went to Tammany Hall to engage their co-operation in securing greater efficiency of the police force in New
York city? A. To aid in making it efficient; yes, sir.
Q Was that because there was no other place to go? r.
Tere was no other place to go that would be as effective as that.
By Senator. O'Oonnor:
Q. Is there any rule of your board prohibiting the membeew of
the police force from being members of these clubs?
Mr. Sutherland.- He has just said there was.




444


The Witnet.-I did not; I said there was a rule and regulation that prevented police officers from attending or being members of political conventions; there is no rule to prevent them'
being members of any other club.
Q. You take it —from the evidence already out-you think
it impairs the efficiency of the force to be members of clubs where
the sale of liquor violates the law? A. No; I said if it was done
to excesna
Q. When your attention was called to it, did your board make
the rule prohibiting their being members of such clubs? A. No,
sir; I did not; I would not be in favor of such a rule.
Q. Why did you bring it to the attention of Tammany Hall?
A. Because I thought it should not be encouraged; I had learned
that some members of the police force were members of a good
many cluba 
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did you understand that Tammany Hall was encouraging
it? A. No, sir; I did not; but I thought they might discourage it.
Q. Did you understand, Mr. Martin, that Tammany Hall exercised so strong a power over the police in this city that their
suggestion in one direction or another would govern the action
of the police? A. No, sir; I thought they exercised a good dleal
of influence in these clubs; they had a good deal to say who were
the members of them.
Q. Then it was not with a view to interposing as against the
police, but against these dubs, that you spoke to Tammany Hall
about this matter? A. I thought it ought to be limited as much
as possible.
Q. Then it was not with a view to interposing as against the
police, but against these clubs that you spoke to Tamnmany Hall
about this matter? A. I don't understand you,
Q. Was it with a view to securing the influence of Tammany
Hall with regard to the police or with reference to the clubs
you spoke to the members? A. With reference to the clubs; I
thought it was a good thing for these clubs to keep police officers
out of them as much as possible. 
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You thought it had a demoralizing effect on the police?
1& Yes; if carried to excess
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You understood that the control of Tammany Hall over
these clubs was greater than your control as police commissioner over the police? A. No; I can not say that.




By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Why would you be opposed to a promulgation of that order
against these men that belonged to a club? A. Because I think
they have a right to belong to any club they see fit.
Q.. You thought they ought not to belong to these clubs, and
asked Tam.many Hall to keep them out? A. Yes, sir.
Q Why didn't you, as a police commissioner, recommend to
your board the adoption of a rule that would regulate that
thing? A. I don't think I would have a right to.
Q. You don't think the board of police commissioners would
have a right to regulate it? A. As a board they might as a
eommissioner I would not favor it.
Q. Why wouldn't you favor it? A. Because I think they have
a right to belong to these clubs, if they see fit,
Q. But you think they ought not to? A. In some cases; yes,
zir.
Q. Then your application to Tammany Hall was against sone
of the policemen and not against all? A. I have reference to
police officers that were running around joining various clubs,
with a view to securing political support; I think a police officer
has a perfect right to attach himself to a social club in the
neighborhood in which he lives and in which he has been brought
up.
Q. But you did not think it was compatible with the efficiency
of the police fbr policemen to go around joining political clubs
for political purposes? A. No, sir; I did hot.
Q. Why didn't you incorporate that idea in the order of the
department? A. I did not see how we could dictate such a rule
as that; it is a difficult rule to frame.
Q. You mean difficult to frame or difficult to pass? A. Diffoult to frame.
Q. You could adopt such a resolution as far as that is conoerned? A. I think so; I do not know that, of course.
Q. Did you ever call upon an expert to write out such a regulation for you? A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Did you ever bring the subject up in a meeting of the board?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you think it of sufficient consequence to talk over in
the board? A. I did not.
Q. Are you not, as member of the board of police commnasioners, in the habit of consulting with each other, with regard to
measures looking to the greater efficiency of the force? A. Occasionally; yes, sir.
Q Is that a matter of frequent occurrence? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Isn't it your duty to devise ways to increase e hefficiency
of the police? A. Yes, sir.




44.6


Q You understand these patrolmen had clarge of the Ifves
and property of the city of New York? A. Yes, sir.
41. And it is extremely desirable that the morals of the police
ehal be as high as possible? A. Yes, air.
Q. And you and the commissioners did consult together to
increase the efficiency of the force? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this is a subject you never brought to their attention?
A. No, sir; I did not; I brought it to the attention of the people
where I thought it had some effect.
Q. Yes, I understand that. A. The effect I desired.
Q.. r.  artin, you recommended to the board appointments,
transfers and promotions? A. Yes, sir.
Q. About one-fourth? A. About one-fourth; yes, sir.
Q. Are any of these appointments, transfers or promotions
recommended by you except they are also recommended by the
Tanmmany Hall district leader of the district in which the man
resides? A. Oh, yes, sir.
Q. How many of them; what percentage? A. Well, some per
oentage; a small percentage; not a large percentage.
Q. Give the committee some idea what percentage that would
be. A. Well, I suppose I have appointed, or promoted - on my
recommendations there have been appointed or promoted probably something over 300 in five years; about 60 a year, I think.
Q About 60 a year? A. I should think so.
Q. What percentage of these are not accompanied by a recommendation of the Tammany Hall district leader? A. Well, probably 10 or 15 per cent. 
Q. Then from 85 to 90 per cent. of your appointments, your
individual appointments, are indorsed in the first instance by the
distriet leader of Tammany Hall for lie district in which the
applicant resides? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it your experience that the man who receives his appointment in that matter feels himself under any obligation to a Tammany Hall leader in that district? A. I don't know that.
Q. I ask you from your experience? A. From my experience
I may say after a man is appointed on the force they see very
little of him.
Q. You, of course, as police commissiorners, are watchful of the
discipline on the force? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell the committee now.whether you have observed that
these men, appointed upon the recommendation of the Tammany
Hall district leaders, after their appointment exhibit any degree
of obligation to the Tammany Hall leader? A. I can not answer
that, except from my own personal experience.




447


Q.I ask you whether you have observed anything of that sort,
I think some of them are very forgetful of how they were,
sappointed, like a great many other people.
Q. Quite s-o; but as a rule, is it not expected; isnt it understood. A. T think it would be natural to expect it.
Q. That they should be grateful to these Tammany Hall dlistrrct leaderse? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And therefore desirous, as far as they can, to comply with
their wishes? A.. Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Before leaving that question, T would like to put a qnestiorm
IDo you, consider it compatible with the efficiency of the police tiseek the hutercession of a poifticial organization for the purpose
of securing the results that you aimed at in your pirevious. answemrs'
A.I think It was entirely compatible; I was after results.
Q. Do you -think It was a proper exercise of your functitom aw
police commissioners, instea~d of exercising your moral or other
suasion, force to seek the Interview of the moral or msusion fore,
of a political organization? A. I think it was entiely proper";
yes, sir
By Senator O'lonsor:
Q. I may have misunderstood you; are we correct in ourunw
standing of it that you applied and brought this matter tb tim.
attention of Tiaimmnany Hall because you thought it would be
more powerful in secuiring~the resulA.t than the police board itselff?
AL. No, sir; that is not my idea of it; T thought that the member-s
of the police force had a right to join- these clubs, as I state(1; I
thought in some cases 'it w-as carried to excess, because I1 learwd
some police oftiers had joined several of these clubs with- a view
to obtaining political influence.
Q. Did you think that that evil,7 if it Was an evil, would bemore successfully broken up by the interference of T-amma-nyBHV
than the police board? A. 1 thought what T said to the representatives of the executive committee would have an influence I.
that direction; yes, sir.
By Mr. Sutherlandl:
Q.Have YOU personally ever recommended the appohtinnt,
pmnotiotn or transfer of a man solely u~jXM the ground of the.
merit of that officer? A. Yes, sir; not solely; I have taken that
InWo consideration.
Q.Of course that is taken into consideration always; but I,ask you now-please be deliberate, if neceswry-have yvn ever




448


recommended, yourself, to the board of police commissioners, the
appointment, transfer or promotion of a policeman, solely upon
his merits as an officer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How? A. Yes, I have.
Q. Who and when? A. Well, there was a case where an
officer had rendered some valuable servioe-I have forgotten the
instance.            "
Q. Give us his name? A. John Ryan.
Q. When was this? A. Several years ago; I can not fix the
time now; the records will show.
Q. As near as you can, please? A. And I broughtQ. Give us as near the time as you can? A. I should think
it was three years ago.
Q. Well, now what was his position before you made the
recommendation? A. He was a patrolman.
Q. For what position did you recommend him? A. To the
rank of roundsman.
Q. You say that was solely upon his merits as an officer?
A. Yes.
Q. Unaccompanied by any recommendation from any political
power whatsoever? A. I do not think there was a soul interceded for him.
Q. Was there any other instance? A. Yes, there was an
officer, a patrolman by the name of Grifltnhagen; he stopped a
runaway team in the fire department upon our parade.
Q. When? A. Last summer.
Q. What was he? A. He was a patrolman, and I reconi
mended him for roundsman, and he was promoted.
Q. And his recommendation was unaccompanied by any,
political recommendation whatever? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Any other case? A. I don't recollect any others.
Q. So far as your recollection goes, with the exception of two
instances, so long as you have been police commissioner, you
have not recommended for appointment, promotion or transfer,
a single man, except one who was backed by political influence?
A. I do not recollect of any others, I think there are others of
them.
Q. So far as you now recall? A. I do not recollect of any
others at this time, athough I think there are others
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. In what connection, don't merit oomit for anythlng od l
force? A. Yes sir. it does.




By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Who selects the voting place for election day, the place
of registration and of voting? A. The place of registration is
selected through the bureau of elections.
Q. Who constitutes the bureau of elections? A. As I said
before, General Rodenbaugh is the chief of the bureau.
Q. Who else constitutes it besides him? A. He has some
clerks under his control, and he acts in this matter through the
superintendent of police and the various captains, and they
select these places and report back to him.
Q. Who selects them? A. The captains of police, I suppose,
in the various precincts.
Q. Do you know, as a fact, that no store or room is selected
by any police captain for the purpose of registration or voting,
except upon the recommendation of the district leader of that
district? A. No; I do not;
Q. Tammany Hall district leader? A. No; I do not.
Q. You do not? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever heard anything of that sort? A. No; I have
not.
Q. Never heard of that? A. No, sir.
Q. You have some general information on the subject, haven't
you? A. I have, so far as my own district is concerned.
Q. Have you known, outsde of your own district? A. No, sir;
no special information.
Q. Or any general information? A. Or any general information about it.
Q. Who do you understand selects these places? A. The
police force and captain.
Q. The captain don't go around personally and stick his nose
into the place? A. I don't know about that
Q. Don't he get information from other's? A. I suppose from
his officers and superintendent.
Q. Are these appointments in writing?  A. Those recom-.
mended to the board.
Q. Do you understand they are recommended to the captains
in the first instance? A. I don't so understand it; these places
are usually selected year after year; the same place in a great
majority of cases, I think.
Q. Have you ever heard of an instance when the place selected
was not agreeable to the Tammany captain of the district?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell us one? A. I do not recollect any particular case.
Q. Could you tell us somebody who could recollect a particular
ease of that sort? A. Probably some of the captains might have
L.       57




450


Been spoken to; some complaints have reached me that the places
ae not large enough.
Q. Isn't that a frequent complaint? A. Yes.
Q. That these places selected for the voters was not large
enough? A. Yes, sir; that is true.
Q. Has it not come to your ears that the inspectors of elections have made that an excuse for throwing voters out? A.
Yes, sir; we have great difficulty in obtaining 1,200 places for
registration.
Q. You have some places built for that purpose? A. We limit
it as far as possible.
Q. You had some buildings built for the purpose, didn't you?. Yes, sir.
Q. You could have others built? A. We could, at some
expense.
Q. You say these voting places continue year after year in
the same places?, A. In a great many cases.
Q. And in these small places? A. Yes, I suppose so; the
board of police is usually instructed to hire places where there
would be about 300 square feet for the purpose of election.
Q. How many of them    have that? A. I think the great
majority of them has that.
Q. Has not the complaint come to you every year that the
voters are compelled to go to places so small that the rights of
voters can not be properly protected by watchers? A. I have
heard that excuse made.
Q. That is made more than once, isn't it? A. Yes.
Q. What steps have you taken to correct that evil? A. I do
ot believe it is true.
Q. Did you ever investigate to find out? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you paid any attention to the evidence that has been
produced before this committee? A. I have; yes, sir.
Q. Have 'you read it? A. I have read it in the newspapers,
yes; I have not seen the official testimony.
Q. Have you observed that watchers have come on the stand
here and frequently testified to that excuse being given when
they were thrown out from behind the guard-rail? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That there wasn't room for them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you tell the committee you don't believe that story?
i. Well, I have great doubts about it.
Q. In each case? A. I think they can do as well outside the
roil as inside.
Q. You think they can serve just as well outside the rail as
Inide? A. Yes, sir; I do..Q You know the law says they shall be inside? A. Yes, sir.




451


Q. You understand the testimony given was the excuse given
by the police officer, that it was too small? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You don't believe those stories? A. I am waiting to hear
the other side.
Q. Did you ever have your attention called to this subject,
before the evidence was given before this committee? A. N4
sir.
Q. Never did? A. No, sir.
Q. I understood you to say there had been numerous cown
plaints made to you? A. Before the selection of these places?
Q. Before the committee commenced its sessions? A. I did
not say so.
Q. Then, there have been, of course, complaints made to you
since the committee arrived? A. No, sir; there haven't; I said
there were numerous complaints on the ground that they were
too small.
Q. How long did these complaints continue? A. Every year
that occurs; a few complaints of that character.
Q. Did you ever investigate any of them? A. Yes, sir; and
the board has changed them from time to time.
Q. Did you ever issue any orders on that subject? A. No;
no direct orders; cases have been dealt with when they came
up; the investigation has been made as to the size of the place,
and investigation made through the bureau of elections by
(General Rodenbaugh, under his direction, and he has made
report to the members of the board, and we have dealt with it
as we had time.
Q. The board has dealt with some cases? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many? A. Quite a number.
Q. How many; two? A. I should say 20 in each year.
Q. There has been 20 changes then in each year, you think, 
in consequence of those complaints? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Being a member of the executive committee of Tammany
Hall general committee, you probably have a list of the general
committee of Tammany Hall? A. I should have a list; yes, sir.
Q. Is that printed in a book or pamphlet? A. It is printed
in a book; I have not received a copy this year.
Q. Have you got a copy of last year's record? A Yes; I
think I have.
Q. Can you send it to me; will it be convenient for you to let
me have it? A. If I have that copy, you shall have it.
Q. Can you send it to me to my hotel before 8 o'clock to-night?
A. Yes, I think so.
Q. Where is your residence? A. The copy is at my ofice.
Q. At 300 Mulberry street? A. I expect to go back thf
afternoon.




452


Q I only wanted to inquire whether the name of any police
officers appear there in that roll; if you can tell me those names,
that is all I care for. A. I do not know that any names of police
officers appear on that roll.
Q. Do you mean to say you do not understand that any police1
men got on that roll? A. I don't think they do; there might be
an exception here and there.
Q. Do you know Sergeant McOartney of the ninth precinct?
&L I know there is a sergeant of that name.
Q. Have you read in the papers the evidence given here yes
terday, that he presided at a meeting of the political club whereat
resolutions were passed rescinding the previous resolution of
that club, which previous resolution indorsed the candidacy of
Walter W. Bahan? A. No, sir; I did not read it
Q. Did you ever hear that circumstance before? A. I heard of
it; but did not read it carefully.
Q. Do you know the same testimony shows that there was a
large number of policemen present in this club voting for the
rescinding of that resolution? A. I do not know of it; I did not
read it
Q. This is the first you have ever heard of it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. It would be in the nature of a surprise party to you if you
learned a\large numnber of policemen were on the Tammany Hall
~ommittee? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your Tammany Hall committee is a large body? A. A
very large bcdy; yes, sir.
Q. How large? A. I should think it must be 12,000 or 15,000
members on the roll.
Q. On the committee; the general committee consists of how
many? A. That is whfft I speak of —the general committee.
Q. Thegeneral committee consists of 12,000 or 15,000? A
Yes.
Q. Are  these  12,000  or 15,000  names  youl speak   or
printed in the book you refer to? A. Yes, sir; they are.
Q. If it should be pointed out to you that there was upon that
list of names the name, of one or more members of the police
~ ftoc, would you consider it a part of your duty tc invite that
policeman to withdraw? A. No, sir; I would not.
Q. You would consider that his efficiency as an officer was in
to wise impaired by his activity in comecrtion with Tammany
Ball? A. Not in violation of any rule.
Q. No; answer my question; you would conmider that his effi-Iency as a police officer would be in no wise impaired by reason
of his membership in that political organization? A. No, sir; I
idon't think it would*'




-45-3


Q. Who is your clerk? A. Patrick J. Ford.
Q. Where does he live? A. He lives 56 East Forty-first street
I think.
Q. What are his duties as clerk? A. He attends to all these
complaints that come to my room, as I have described.
Q. And puts tlem all in a box, I suppose? A. Yes, sir; he
takes care of those books.
Q. And enters the records of the trial, and so forth, and so on!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Each one of your commissioners has a clerk? A. Yes.
Q. Paid by the city? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the salary of your clerk? A. Seventeen hundred
dollars.
Q. And i,! it expected his duty as clerk in your office occupies
his entire time? A. Well, it does to a great extent.
Q. That is to say, he does not have any other business? A.
No; I don't think so.
Q. What are his hours there? A. He is there from 9:30 to
5 o'clock, I should think.
Q. With a noon intermission, I presume? A. I think so.
Q. Is he the man that sends out your political notices?:
Yes, sir.
Q. He sends out your political notices? A. No, sir; not all.
Q. How long has it been the practice for your clerk- the clerli
of your police office —to send out the notices which you, as dis,
trict leader, are required to send out? A. Well, he has been
attending to that off and on since he has been there.
Q. How long is that? A. Since I have been there.
Q. And he does this while he is on duty there in the city buildIng? A. No; he usually does it after office hours.
Q. After what hours? A. Well, after the usual office hours;
after 4 o'clock.
Q. These notices go mot to your district caaptains?- A. No;
they go out usually to the members of the organization of the
Twenty-first Assembly district.
Q. That is what I am talking about; the district captains in
your Assembly district? A. The district captains would be only
33 notices; there is a great many more.
Q. How many more? A. Oh, several hundred.
Q. What time of the year do these notices go out? A. Usually
every month.
Q. Every month? A. Yes, sir.
Q. One day in the month? A. One day in the month.
Q. The first day in the month? A. No; usually the meetfins
take place on the. second Tuesday in the month; this is prior to
that




454 -


Q. These notices, then, relate to the meetings of the oommltE
tee? A. The meetings of the committee; yes, sir; the organization.                                         '
Q.. What else do the notices relate to? A. Well, coming on to
election time, they are usually more frequent in relation to have
ing men to go to convention, and so on.
Q. He notifies delegates to the convention? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And notifies the district captains to arrange for election
day? A. No, sir.
Q. He does that? A. That is done at the meeting.
Q. He notifies you at the meeting then? A. Yes, sir, and he
notifies them amongst the others.
Q. Who is the patrolman detailed at your office? A. His
name is McGurrie.
Q. He was formerly a doorman? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And under the Consolidation Act there was a provision
about the promotion. of doorman and patrolmian? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that provision required them to be not over 35 years
of age? A. The original provision?                  -
Q. Yes. A. I think the original provision did.
Q. Not over 35 years of age? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And not less than what height? A. Not less than five feef
seven and one-half; that is the regulaticn that the board
requires; there is nothing in the statute as to the height of the
officer.                                                 I
Q. This man who is now your patrolm!an, and was formerly a
doorman, was promcted on youlr recoommendatoin? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was his age when he was promoted? A. I don't
Inow.                                                    4
Q. Forty-five, wasn't he? A. I don't think he was as old as
that.
Q. He was over 35? A. Yes, sir; I think he was; he was promoted under the law, as amended by the Legislaihre.
Q. You secured the passage of a special act, did you not? A
No, sir; I did not
Q. Who did? A. I don't know.
Q. Didn't ynu hear of it before it went through?  A. Yes; I
heard some talk about it.
0. Has anyone else been promoted over age except this man?
A. I don't know whether he was over age or not; there were three
promoted under that act; there was the doorman of Commissioner McClave, and one other doorman- I do not recollect hi.
name- three promoted under the statute.
Q. As I understand, each one of these three labored under the
some disability, which it required that act to remove? A. Yen
sir; they could not be promoted without that act




455
Q Other doormen have applied for this promotion besides
these three? A. There have been some recommendations besides
that; yes, sir.
Q. What has become of their applications? A. I believe they
have not been favorably considered.
Q. But these men, for some reason, were made eligible by
special enactment? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any special reason why these three men should
be selected for that promotion against others? A. So special
reason.
Q. What are the duties of this doorman? L. He attends to
the office.
Q. What does he do? A. He receives all callers and announces
them to me.
Q. What else does he do? A. Carries messages to the various
offices of the department
Q. What else does he do? A. His time is well occupied.
Q. What else does he do? A. He attends to all the duties of
messenger of the office.
Q. Does he go outside on messages? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Don't you send him out on your political messages? A.
Very rarely.
Q. Hasn't this man been particularly active and serviceable in
that matter? A. He has been with me for a great many years;
on my recommendation he was originally appointed; I was
glad to take the opportunity to promote him.
Q. And he made himself very serviceable to you politically?
A. I regarded him as very serviceable.
Q. And it was a matter of congratulation that the act enabled
you to give him promotion? A. I was very glad of the opportunity; and he was a man of large family, and I thought he was
worthy, and would be as good a patrolman as anybody else.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. While this man was performing these minor acts for you,
that did not interfere with his official duties? A. Not in the
slightest
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. The police commissioners are at the head of the entire
force? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who is next subordinate to them? A. Superintendent
of police.
Q. And who next subordinate to him? A. Your inspectors of
police.




450


Q. The superintendent is Mr. Byrnes? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who are the four inspectors? A. The inspectors are
Williams, McAvoy, Coughlin and McLaughlin.
Q. And McLaughlin? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who are the next subordinate to them? A. The captains
of the police.
Q. How many captains are there? A. I think about 37.
Q. They have charge of precincts? A. They have charge of
police precincts; yes, sir.
Q. How are those police precincts made up; by geographical
edesignation? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What police precinct do you live in? A. I live in the
twenty-second precinct.
Q. And what are the boundaries of that precinct? A. The
'twenty-second precinct runs from Forty-second to Fifty-ninth
street, and from Sixth avenue to the North river.
Q. And who is the captain of that precinct? A. Captain
lfoughey, at this time.
Q. Do you know Captain Brooks? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What precinct is he in command of? A. Captain Brooks
is in command of what is known as the twenty-ninth precinct
Q. What are the boundaries of that precinct? A. It runs
from One Hundred and Sixteenth street to the Harlem river,
and west to Seventh avenue.
Q. And east? A. East to the river.
Q. Do you know Captain Dougherty? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What precinct has he charge of? A. Captain Dougherty
Is now in the fifth precinct.
Q. He was formerly in what precinct? A. He was formerly
in the fourteenth precinct.
Q. What are the boundaries of that precinct? A. I think
from Hudson to Fourteenth street, and east of the Bowery; I
can not give you the exact boundaries.
Q. I want to get the location, of course? A. That is about
hie location.
Q. Are there a good many liquor saloons in that precinct?
'. I should think so, yes.
Q. Well, let us continue this subject of the force; after the
captains, who are the next subordinate oticers in the force?
A. Sergeants of police.
Q. How many of them? A. There are four to each precinct,
making about 180, I should think, or thereabouts.
Q. About 180 sergeants; how many roundsmen are there?
A. There are the same number of roundsmen in each precinct;
about the same number.!




45T,


Q. About 180; how many doormen have you? A. We have
two to each precinct - about 70- and some at the central ofice,
making probably 80 in all.
Q. How many patrolmen? A. I will look at my data.
Q. If you have it, by all means; if you can give us these other
figures more exactly, I will be glad to have you, Mr. Martin; I
will ask you the questions -ver again, if you have the data thereJ
A. I am substantially right.
Q. How many police captains? A. Thirty-seven.
Q. And how many sergeants? A. One hundred and sixty-sex.
Q. How many roundsmen? A. There were some vacancies
that have been filled, making 169.
Q. How -many roundamen? A. One hundred and seventyr
seven roundsmen, I think, tfiere are to-day.
Q. How many doormen? A. Doormen, 82.
Q. And how many patrolmen? A. Patrolmen, 3,384; ther
have been some appointed since that time; I should think about
3,400; this was on the 16th of February; I had this made up.
Q. And besides that you have police surgeons? A. Yes, ir.
Q. How many? A. Fifteen.
Q. Can you tell us the total of your force then on the 16th of
February? A. On the 16th of February the total force was 3,897.
Q. Is that about the force during the year? A. It increasae
100 each year.
Q. The increase is about 100? A. Yes.
Q. It does not decrease at all? A. No; the statute authorises
the increase of the force 100. each year.
Q. Do you know Morris Tekulsky? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is he a particular friend of yours? A. No, sir.
Q. Is he a frequent visitor at your place? A. No, sir.
Q. Has he ever visited you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. On' what business? A. Well, on general business.
Q. What general business is he engaged in? A. He oame 14
there to talk about general matters; nothing that I now recollect
particularly.
Q. You mean the weather? A. Yes, sir; the weather, probae
bly; yes, sir.
Q. What else did he come to talk about? A. Well, he came in
on several occasions to ask that some officer be appointed wr
transferred; I do not now recollect..
Q. How many times did he ever do that? A. Half a dozen,
times, I should think.
Q. Did you grant his request? A. In some cases.
Q. In how many cases? A. I should think about four oases;
I think four or five oases.
L ]i58




458
Q. You did not read his evidence, did you, the oither day? AL
Yes, sir; I did.
Q. Where he said he never had but one? A. Yes; I think he,said that
Q. Now, Mr. Martin, haven't you promoted or transferred more
'than four or five patrolmen at his request? A. No, sir.
Q. You are sure of that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Has not the hoard of police commissioners promoted or
transferred more than four or five at his request-the entire
board? A. I don't know anything about it, except those in
which I am concerned myself.
Q. Is that the only business he has called upon you a-bout?
A. I think that is the only business he called to headquarters;
I have met him occasionally outside.
Q. Is that the only business he has talked about to you in your
official capacity as police commissioner? A. Yes, sir.
Q. A mere appointment or transfer of patiolmen? A. That
is all.
Q. Has he never complained to you about the manner in which
the Excise Law was enforced? A. I don't recollect of his making
any such complaint, sir.
Q What reason did he give for desiring the transfer of patrolmen? A. I do not now recollect.
Q. Was it not with regard to this conduct of the Excise Law?
A. No, sir; it was not.
Q. In no instance? A. No, sir.,
Q. He kad some other excuse to transfer him? A. He gave
me some other reason.
Q. You knew all the while he was president of the State Liquor
Dealers' Association? A. I knew that very well.
Q. No deception practiced on you? A. Not the slightest
Q.'Did you ever give any instructions yourself to the police
captains in regard to the manner in which they should execute
the Excise Law? A. No, sir; never.
Q. Individually or collectively? A. No, sir, never directly or
indirectly.
Q. You know Captain Brooks? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever sent to him? A. On that subject?
Q. Yes? A. No, sir.
Q. Ever talked with him about it? A. No, sir.
Q. Is yowr recollection quite clear on this topic? A. My recollection is quite good.
Q. On that particular subject? A. Yes, on that particular
subject                                    * 
Q. Do you know Captain Dougherty, that I have muetioned?
A. Yes, sir




S59


Q. While hbe was in command of the fortieenth precinct, dilP
you talk with him about the manner in which he should enforce'
the Excise Law? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you talk with him on the subject of the Excise Law?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you talk with him on the subject of the arest of
liquor dealers? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you talk with him on the subject of Sunday closing?
A. No, sir. -                               *
Q. Did you talk with him on the subject of liquor saloons
being open at unlawful hours? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you talk with him on the subject of the Exdise Law in
any of its ramifications? A. No, sir.
Q. Had any conversation with him on that subject whatever?
A. No conversation whatever.
Q. Do you know Captain Gallagher? A. Yes, sr. 
Q. What precinct is he captain of? A. Captain of the ninth
precinct.                            -
Q. What are the boundaries of that precinct? A. I can not
give you the boundaries; it is over on the west side, south of
Fourteenth street.                    l
Q. How far south does it run? A. It runs down, I should
think, as far as Houston street
Q. Is that a rather disorderly quarter of the city? A. No, I
would not so regard it
Q. A good many liquor saloons there? A. I don't think a
great many.
Q. Did you ever send for him and talk with him about it?
A. Never. 
Q. Never talked with him on that subject? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know Captain Gallegar? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What precinct has he charge of? A. He is in the gighteenth precinct.
Q. What are the boundaries of that precinct? A. Fourteenth
to Twenty-sixth street, I think, and east of Fourth avenue over to.
the river.
Q. Have you ever sent for him and talked with him on the
subject? A. Never.
Q. Did he ever come to you and you talked with him on that
subject? A. No, I never talked to any captain of police at any
time on this subject.
Q. You say you never talked with Captain Shields when he
-was in the sixteenth on that subject? A. No, sir.
Q. You never talked with Oaptain Martin or aptain Cross of
the fifth on that subject? A. Never.




1
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460


Q. You never talked with Captain Price when he was in the
twentieth on that subject? A. No, sir.
Q. By the way, you have talked with Price about some things?
A. I have talked with all the captains about some things, I supplse.
Q. You remember a complaint was made in which Captain
Price failed to obey orders not a great while ago? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That complaint resulted in a trial subsequently? A. Yes,
rir.
Q. Based upon charges? A. Yea, sir.
Q. Preferred by superintendent of police? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Another gentleman of the name of Martin was tried at the
same time? A. Not at the same time — Martens, not Martin.
Q. He was captain of what precinct? A. He was captain of
the twenty:first precinct.
Q. Before those charges were preferred, and consequently
before the trial, did you have any talk with Captain Price about
the manner in which he should execute his duties in respect to
disorderly houses in his district? A. No, sir.
Q. None whatever? A. No, sir.
Q You had not talked with Superintendent Byrnes about it
before that? A. No, sir.
Q. Were there any special orders given to Captain Price on
that subject? A. By me?
Q. Yes. A. No, sir.
Q: Were there any special orders given to him by your orders?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. What was the complaint against Captain Price? A. He
was charged with neglect of duty.
Q. In what particular? A. In failing to suppress.
Q. Suppress what? A. A disorderly house.
Q. Disorderly in what particular? A. I think it was charged
as a house of prostitution.
Q. Whrere situated? A. Situated on Seventh avenue; I think
the numbers were 528 and 530 Seventh avenue.
Q. Was that house well known to be a house of prostitution?
A. It seemed to be on the trial well known to the police.
Q. And, as you understand it, the trial developed the fact that
he willfully disobeyed the order to close that house? A. What
is that?
Q. You found him guilty of disobeying orders to close that
house? A. Yes, sir; we did.
Q. And that, therefore, was on evidence showing that it was
a matter of- common knowledge, common to the police, that it
was a disorderly house, was it not? A Yea.
i.  ",                             / 




'461


Q. And, as you understand it, Captain Price had been spetfically instructed to close that house, hadn't he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he and Captain     Martens had   been  specifically
instructed to close several houses, hadn't they? A. I don't know
as to any others; all I know is as to these two charges.
Q. Did they both relate to the same house? A. No, sir; no,
sr; a house in each precinct.
Q. There was a house in each precinct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the length of time between the giving of the
order to close that house and the complaint filed against the
captain for failure to obey? A. Well, I think the order to close
was sometime in February, and the trial was early in March.
Q. When was the complaint? A. At that time; at the time of
the trial; the trial followed immediately afterward.,
Q. Then the difference in time was in the neighborhood of four
weeks? A. I should think less than that.
Q. Three weeks? A. About that I shoiuld think.
Q.     Mr.  tin, can you conceive of a greater offense short of
a felony for a police officer to commit than to refuse to close
a disorderly house when specifically commanded, and having in
his hands abundance of evidence?
Mr. Nicoll.-One moment, Mr. Sutherland. Can a judicial
officer,. or an officer exercising judicial functions, who has rendered a judgment, have his motives or reasons inquired into?
Mr. Sutherland.-I shall inquire for the reasons of this judgment if you want to have it.
Chairman Lexow.-Inasmuch as this inquiry is to ascertain
facts on which to base legislative action, the question is very
pertinent to determine whether or not the judicial branch of this
department is being properly exercised.
Mr. Nitoll.-You need not get angry about it, Mr. Sutherland,
in any way at all. Of course we know, as matter of fact, that
ordinarily you can not interrogate a judicial officer as to the
reasons which led to his judgment; that is contrary to public
policy. He is responsible for his judglment; and he gets what
approval he is entitled to, if it is a right judgment, but public
policy forbids us to inquire into reasons which induced the
judgment, although it may be reviewed by appellate tribunals.
Chairman Lexow. —Is it not a matter of fairly frequent oocurance that justices of the peace are suspended o, removed up-n
charges reflecting upon the judgments that they have rendered,
and it is not a proper subject of inquiry? Is not your objection
limited to constitutional officers? 
Mr. Nicoll.-I don't think it is limited to those.
Chairman Lexow.-I think it is proper, to test the eficiency
o the department.




462


Mr. Niconl.-  ow long is the committee going to sit to-day?
Chairman Lexow. —I thought Mr. Sutherland would terminate
this branch of the inquiry.
Mr. Sutherland.-What is the answer to the question?
The Witness.-What is the question?
Q. (Question read as follows.) Mr. Martin, can you conceive of
a greater offense, short of felony, for a police officer to commit,
than to refuse to close a disorderly house when specifically
commanded, and having in his hands abundance of evidence?
A. I think it was a very serious offense.
Q. What was the punishment inflicted by your board? A. He
was fined five days' pay.
Q. How much is that? A. I will have to figure it up, of course.
Q. Of course; we will give you plenty of time? A. The salary
of the captains is $2,000 a year, that would be $166 a month.
Chairman Lexow.- Five days' pay would be $25.
A.. More than that.
Chairman Lexow.-About $25.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. It is under $30; that is safe enough? A. Between $27
and $30; yes, sir.
Q. Under $30? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it your judgment that that punishment fitted to the
crime? A. That was the unanimous judgment of the board.
Q. It was yollrs among the rest? A. I was one of the board.
Q. In pursuance of your duties as a commissioner to hear
trials, you have imposed other fines upon other officers? A. I
would like to make an explanation about that Price case.
Q. Let me ask you one or two questions, and you will have
an opportunity to explain; you have imposed other fines on other
officers? A. Yes, sir.
Q:; What was the total amount of fines imposed last year? A.
You mean by the board on all the various members?
Q. Yes, sir; on the various complaints brought before you?
A. I could not answer you that, sir.
Q. Perhaps I can help you? A. That would require considerable calculation.
Q. You made a report every year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that report goes out under your direction? A; Yes,
sir.
Q. And your report shows for 1892 there were 831 complaints
against policemen? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The total amount of fines was $11,033.65; is that about the
figure? A. Yes, sir; I should think that is correct




463
Q. And the year "before —1891 -the total amount of fines
imposed on officers of the force was $18,313.61; for the year 1893
the amount of fines you would say would be somewhere between
$11,000 and $18,000? A. I should think in that neighborhood;
there have been more complaints this year than we have had
before; probably it might be more in proportion; I should think
it would not exceed $20,000.
Q. And this man contributed from $25 to $30 of the aggregate
amount? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You wanted to explain something? A. I want to say in
reference to the Price case that there was a great deal of doubt
as to whether or not the captain was guilty of the offense
charged.
Q. Well, I will ask you about that the next time we meet. A I
wanted to give it right here.
Senator Bradley.-Would it not be well to get that?
A. I want to give an explanation.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Go ahead, certainly; I only want to probe him a little
myself. A. The testimony of Captain Price went to show that
this house was closed and had been closed for a number of
months
Q. And the testimony on the other side went to show there
were people frequently visiting it? A. No, sir; there were not.
Q. What was the name of the woman that kept that house?
A. I have forgotten it this minute.
Q. Is Sallie- A. Sallie Holland; and the testimony went
to show the central office man went there one evening in February and got in through the basement, and there wasn't anybody
thpre -no woman; they talked with the servants, and said they
would come again; they called again, and there wasn't anybody
there; the third time they called, always going through the
basement, which was the cellarway, they were taken upstairs
for the first time and two girls were introduced; they had some
conversation with the girls and purchased a bottle of wine; on
that, warrant for the arrest of the proprietor and inmates was
obtained; and the testimony went to show that I think, about
eight police officers called there a few nights afterward and
raided the house and arrested one person ---the housekeeper;
there were no women in the house at that time; on the trial of
that case in Special Sessions, I think, she was discharged; those
are the facts in the ease.
Mr. Nicoll.-Just before we leave, I want to ask Mr. Martin
one questiotn, and only one.




464


By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Mr. Sutherland asked yon in how many eases you have
recommended to the board the appointment of men to the police
force or promotion, for transfer for merit alone, and without
regard to political recommendation or influence; do you mean
to say that you recommended     the appointment of menunworthy men-on political influence? A. No, sir; I did not
Q. What is the fact? A. I mean to say merit was considered
first, and recommendations are secondary.
Q. That is you rejected-even if an unworthy man was recomro
mended strongly politically, would you appoint him? A. No, sir.
Q. Or recommended his promotion or transfer? A. No, sir.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Other things being equal, you gave preference to your own
party? A. Yes, sir.
Chairman Lexow.-The committee stands adjourned until
Friday, April 6, 1894, at 10:30 o'clock.
Proceedings of the ninth meeting of the committee, Friday,
April (th, 1894, at 10 a. m.
Present. —Senators Clarence Lexow, Jacob A. Cantor, and
Daniel Bradley.
Appearances as before:
James J. Martin, recalled:
Direct examination (continued) by Mr. Sutherland 
jMr. Sutherland. —I offer in evidence, if the committee please,
the watcher's certificate referred to in the evidence of J. 0.
fHavemeyer. It is dated November 3, 1893, 'and signed by John
S. S. nith, chairman, and William H. Bellamy, secretary of the
Republican county committee of the city and county of New
York, and recites that in pursuance of the provisions of section
102 of chapter 680 of the Iaws of 1890, the Republican county
committee has appointed J. C. hLavemeyer a watcher to attend
the polling place of the thirty-eighth election district of the
Second Assembly district, of the said city and county, during
the election to be held on the 7th day of November, 1893.
Paper marked "Exhibit 1" of this date.
IThe Chairman.-Is there any objection, Mr. Nicoll?
Mr. Nicoll. —No objection.
~Mr. Sutherland.-I have already shown it to Mr. Nicoll.
Q. Mr. Martin, as the evidence closed on Saturday, we were
talking about the trial of Captain Price, and if I understood




you correctly you advised the committee that there was some
doubt in your mind about the guilt of Captain Price? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And that was a reason why a more severe penalty was not
inflicted than a matter of five days' pay? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So I understand by that if you had really believed him to
be guilty of the offense charged, the punishment would have
been greater? A. Yes, sir.
Q: You do regard the offense that is charged against Captain
Price as a very serious one, do you not? A. As a serious one;
yes, sir.
Q. A willful disobedience of commands of a superior officer
with regard to closing a disorderly house is a most heinous
offense, is it not? A. Quite a serious offense.
Q. It is more than quite a serious offense, is it not? A. We
regard it as a serious offense; yes, sir.
Q. It is a serious offense for a policeman to get drunk, Is It
not? A. Yes.
Q. But it is a more serious offense to disobey a command to
close a disorderly house.? A. I say it is a very serious offense;
yes, sir.
Q. And, if you had really believed Catptain Price guilty of that
offense, you would have punished him by a more severe punish.
ment than a five days' fine? A. I would; yes, sir.
Q. Did you vote for his conviction? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did all the other commissioners vote the same way? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Did you convict an innocent man? A. No, sir; I said
there was a doubt about it in our minds.
Q. When you voted for his conviction did you believe he was
guilty? A. To a certain extent.                          {
Q. What do you mean, " To a certain extent?" A. Well, that
these police officers got into this house- the police officers sent
from the central office -they got into this house and succeeded
in getting some evidence, on which a wairant was obtained.
Q. What had that to do with Captain Price? A. The captain
claimed, and his evidence tended to show, that the house had
been closed for montihs; that nothing was doing there.
Q. Did' you believe that evidence? A. Well, it was conflicting;
and I say the commissioners were in doubt about it.
Q. Did you believe Captain Price's evidence? A To some.
extent; yes, sir. 
Q. Which part of it did you believe? A. Well, I believed that
the house was not openly engaged in business, although there
L.       59




466.mlght have been some business at -some time whien the captain
was not aware of it.
Q. You mean to say you believe that cases of prostitution were'
being committed in that house, but not o~penly; is that it? A.
TPhat might be so..Q. Is that what I understiand you? A. There was no proof
there was any cases of that kind there.
Q. There were -proofs that immoral women were there? A.
Well, yes; there wus to some extent; there were two women
there.
Q. What do you mean to some extent; 'immoral to some extent?
A. -No. Sir, I didQ. What do, you mean? A. The testimony was not very strong
-on that point; I mean there were two women there, but there was
noth~ing very imm~oral shown to have be-en oommited at the time
-the officers- were there.
Q. Was there any doubt about the character of the women
that were found there? A. I don't know anything about tha~,except the evidence.
Q. They found this man guilty? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any doubt in your mind as to the character R
the women that were found there? A. I believe' they were
improper women; yes, sir.
Q. Any doubt in the mindis of any of the conimissioners on that
eiibject, was there? A. T think not
Q. These immoral women. were actually inmates of that house?
A. I believe they were, that night
Q. What do you mean by "some extent?" A. T me-an the
-testimony was very weak as to, any immoral practices that night.
Q. Any immoral practices that night? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I understood you to say on your examination on Saturday
that It app~eared before you that there Was no diflicialty in gret.
ting evidence against that house? A. T said there Was a great
deal of difficulty in getting evidence against this house.
Q. It was proved before you, was it not, that some four weeks
hbad been given to Captain Price in which to close this house;
wasn't it? A. I can't recollect the exact time; T think there
was several weeks; yes, sir.
Q. When did this trial take plaice before yon? A. It was early
-in March, I think.
(2. Mearch (6. wasn't it? A'. Maireh 6; yes, slip
Q. Thirty days ago? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And a full account of that trial was pyublished In th~e World
-of March 7th, was it not, as well as other newspa~pers? A. There
were accounts published in the newspapers; I do not reoollecd
particularly as to the accounts. 




Q. Did you ever look that over? A. To some extent
Q. Were the accounts reasonably correct? A. I don't know
about that.
Q. Did you examine the accounts? A. I did not examine that
carefully.
Q. There was a two column article, was there not, in the New
York World of it; wasn't there? A. I do not remember, sir.
Q. I show  you a clipping from   the World of March 7,
and ask you whether that refreshes your recollection any as to
the length of the account that was given in the World of March
7 of that trial? A. I suppose that is a report of the trial.
Q. Did you look it over after it was published? A. No, sir;
I did not
Q. And you could not say whether it is a truthful account of
that trial or not? A. I can not say that.
Q. The charge against Captain Price was that he had failed to
suppress the houses at No. 528 and 530 Seventh avenue, wasn't
it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now it was proved before you that\ that house was raided
about how long before the trial took place? A. I think it was
the 22d of February.
Q. The 22d of February it was raided? A. If I remember
correctly.
Q. Was it sworn before you that Detective Sergeants Titus,
Vallely and Grady were sent to investigate this house? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. That they visited that honse February 14th? A. Yes, sir.
sir.
Q. That they were talen into the parlor by the housekeeper,
Emily Lewis? A. No, sir; that was not the case.
Q. That is not sworn to? A. That is not as I recollect it
Q. Was it sworn to by them that on the evening of February
16, they visited the house again? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they were informed the girls had gone to the Arion
ball? A, Yes, sir.
Q. And they were invited to call again? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That they accepted that invitation? A. Yes, sir; and they
did call again,
Q. The following night? A. Two of them, I believe.
Q. The following night, was it not? A. Yes, I believe it was.
Q. February 17? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And found a couple of girls there? A. I do not recollect
it was the following night; it was a day or two afterward; they
called within a night or two.
Q. And called in response to this invitation? A. As they
suggested.




468


Q. Nobody disputed that evidence, did they? A. No.
Q. And when they called the next ime they found a couple
of girls there?. A. They were introduced to two girls, yes, sir,
Q And had a wine party? A. Had one bottle of wine.
Qt And various acts of lewdness were proved? A. Very little,
sir.
Q. What was proved? A. I think there was one officer said
some exhibition of hosiery; I think that is the expression he used.
Q. Anything else? A. No, sir.
Q. Did the girls come and sit on their laps? A. Yes; each
one of them swore to it.
Q. Is that when they exhibited the hosiery? A. I.don't reoollect that particular time.
Mr. Nicoll.-I object
Mr. Sutherland.- This man states he has doubts of the guilt
of Captain Price.
Mr. Nicoll.-He has stated the evidence was conflicting on
the trial, and as a matter of discipline they found the captain
guilty of neglect, but they did not impose a more severe punishment because there was some doubts as to whether or not neglect
could be properly imputed to him. I think that is a fair statement of the position of the commissioner upon the subject, and
there is not much profit to this committee in going over the evidence of all these trials, which, as counsel himself says, was
fully made public and has been read and heard and discussed.
Chairman Lexow.- One of the functions of the police commission is the judicial function, and it is very pertinent to this
inquiry, in order to enable the Legislature to ascertain whether
or not this function should be left with the commissioners, to
determine whether or not, in a specific case of this kind, they
had been known to exercise that function with propriety.
Mr. Nicoll.- I understand so far as that suggestion of the
committee is concerned, that the committee have already made
a report to the Legislature, through its chairman, and that they
have prepared a bill upon that report and have introduced the
bill and have passed it through one branch of the Legislature.
Now, unless the committee intends some new and different
legislation from that which has just been adopted, how can the
testimony be proper in that respect. Of course, if the committee
intend to make a new report and repeal the bill just introduced
and pass another bill, why, it may be that all this evidence will
be proper.
The Chairman.- It is the purpose of this investigation to ascer4tin whether or not there should be other and different legislation from that already had.




469


Mr. Cantor.- I suppose the bill in the Assembly will be sum
pended during the investigation?
Chairman Lexow. —Oh, no.
Mr. Sutherland.-No doubt the gentleman would rather have
'the investigation cease. Can I go on?
Chairman Lexow.- Yes.
Mr. Nicoll.- Unless it is proposed to modify existing legisla
tion, or legislation at present proposed by some other legislator.
Mr. Sutherland. —Proposed by you or by the committee?
Mr. Nicoll.-Proposed by the committee.
Senator Cantor.- No; proposed by the chairman of the committee. This is a bill of the chairman of the committee.
Mr. Nicoll. —I suppose there is a report by the chairman of
the committee in the form of a very eloquent address, and I
assume that was practically agreed upon by the majority of the
committee.
Senator Cantor.- The bill was voted for by a majority of the
committee.
Chairman Lexow. —It is unnecessary to continue this.
Senator Bradley.- Wasn't that bill introduced before this
investigation was commenced?
Senator Cantor.-Yes; but was adopted since.
Mr. Nicoll.-It was a piece of legislation which was adopted
by the committee, introduced, as I understand, after the appointment of the committee and adopted by the committee.
Senator Bradley.-I can assure you, as one member of the
committee, I never was consulted.
Senator Cantor.- Of course, it was never expected that you
would be.                          *
Chairman Lexow.-It is unnecessary to continue this argument The committee understands its labors are not to be cut
short by the passage of any legislation at this session.
Senator Cantor.- That has not been determined by the Senate
yet.
Chariman Lex6w.-I hope it will be.
Mr. Sutherland. —Your retainer is complete, I suppose, to
extend through to the end of this month.
Mr. Nicoll.-It has not been provided for by the Legislature.
Q. Don't you think that Captain Price's men could have
obtained the evidence as easily as Superintendent Byrnes' men
obtained the same evidence? A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. Why not? A. Well, Superintendent Byrnes' men are men
better adapted for that purpose, and according to their testimony, they showed that they went to this house, and some of
them were in dress suits, one of them at least was in dress
suit, representing themselves as strangers to the city from the




470


wes, and by ordinary means they obtained entrance into thie
basement; at that time the evidence went to show, including that
of the inspector of police, who was in command of that particular district at the time-Inspector Conlin testified he had
visited that place about that time, had personally examined it,
tried the door, rung the bell, and knocked on the windows, and
the place was closed.
Q. Did you understand by that that nobody lived there? A.
Yes; there was somebody living there; there was a colored
servant, andQ. Nobody claimed it was locked? A. No; there was somebody living there.
Q. You mean no immoral practices were going on? A. No
person was admitted in answer to the ringing of the bell; the
inspector was in citizens' clothes at the time.
Q. Do you wish the committee to understand that Captain
Price had no men in his command, or subject to his command,
who could have obtained the same evidence that Superintendent
Byrnes could have obtained? A. That was the testimony of
himself and his men.
Q. Do you want the committee to understand that was the
case in Captain Price's district? A. At that time; yes, sir.
Q. Has there been any-change in his precinct since? A. No,.
sir.
Q. He is still destitute of the right sort of men to discover
the existence of crime in his district? A. So far as I know,.
they are not any better now.
Q. When did you first wake up to the fact that his men were
unable to obtain evidence against disorderly houses? A. On
this trial, when the case was brought before us in his precinct.
Q. And what steps have you taken since that trial to remedy
that defect? A. We have not taken any.
Q. IWhat steps do you intend to take, if any? A. We shall
change the men, if they can not do better.
Q. What men? A. His special men, connected with that
business.
Q. Who-are they? A. He has two wardmen.
Q. What are their names? A. They are men that particularlylook after that ward business; I do not recollect their names.
now; one of them is named Hay, I think.
Q. Have you ever questioned these wardmen? A. I have not.,
Q. Have any members of the board of police commissioners,as far as you know? A. No, sir; I don't think they have; not
that I know of, anyhow.
Q. Has Captain Price made any complaint of incompetency
against these men? A. He has not.




171
Q. Or their inefficiency? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you any better men on your force than these two?
A. They seem to be fairly up to the standard.
Q. These two are up to the average, are they? A. They
seemed so on the trial.
Q. Can you now name to the committee any' ward detectives
who are better qualified, better equipped, or more successful
than these two who served under Captain Price in this instance?
A. No, I can not.
Q. Do you think it would be possible to get better men for
such duty? A. It might be possible; yes, sir.
Q. Do you know the men that Superintendent Byrnes sent
there? A. I know them as officers in the department
Q. How many men has he of that calibre? A. The detective
sergeants are 40 in number.
Q. Forty? A. That is a special force of detectives, c-lled
detective sergeants.
Q. And these were three out of that 40? A. No; two of the
40, and one a patrolman, who was detailed to the detective bureau
for some work.
Q How many patrolmen are there detailed for that wark? A.
I should say he had 15.r 20 of that kind; may be more.
Q. Making about 60 all told? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And these were three out of that 60? A. Yes, sir.,Q. These were an average three, you think? A. They were
pretty capable men.
Q. Were they below or above the average of the 60? A. I
should think they were very good men; I should say so.
Q. Undoubtedly the evidence shows that; they went in where
Captain Price said he would not go? A. I am not familiar with
the capacity of the entire number, but I should think they were
very capable men; that is as much as I can say on that subject.
Q. You can not say whether the other 57 are better than these?
A. I think they are picked out by the superintendent for their
ca pacity.
A. And can't you tell whether the three average up with the
57? A. I should think they did, if they are not above the average.
Q. You would not say they were above the average? A. No;
they certainly were up to the average.
Q. Commissioner, have you ever discovered in any other
instance than this houise of Sarah Holland's that the ward
detectives under the command of the captain of 'he precinct were
defcient in their capacity? A. Yes, sir; we disovered it on the
trial of the other captain.
Q. C(ptain Martens? A. Captain Martens,




472


Q. On the same day? A. Yes, sir..Q. Who are his two men? A. I don't remember their names af
this time.
Q. Have you ever discovered them in any other instance? A.
No, sir; we have not.
Q. Thirty days have passed since you made that discovery? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. You have not removed these men? A. We removed one of
the menf of Captain Martens.
Q. Which one was that? A. I think his name was Murphy.
Q. You mean you transferred him to some other position? A.
Yes, sir; remanded him from the detective force of the precinct
to patrol duty of that precinct
Q. You have done nothing to the other three? A. No, sir.
Q. Where did you get the man to take his place? A. We didn't
get any man.
Q. There is only one ward detective in Martens' district? A.
We have not nominated the man in his place; the nomination
comes from the captain through the superintendent to the board
of police.
Q. And the captain has not selected any? A. Not as yet, I
think.
Q. You have not taken any steps as to the other three? A.
No, sir; we have not. 
Q. Have you commissioners ever consulted together as to the
efficiency of these men? A. We talked about these men in connection with the decision of these oases.
Q. Did you imap out any plan of operation whereby you woulH
increase their efficiency? A. We thought this man Murphy was
inefficient, and we decided to remand him for that reason; we
thought he was particularly inefficient.
Q. That was not in Price's case? A. No, sir.
Q. What did you decide to do as to the Price men? A. We
have not decided anything.
Q. Have you talked that over? A. Yes, sir.
Q Have you discussed any method by which you would flnd
better men? A. No, sir; we have not.
Q. How did Byrnes get these 60 men he has picked up? A.
From his experience, I suppose.
Q. Where did he find them? A. In the department
Q. All of them? A. I think so.
\Q. Are all of his detectives enrolled in the department? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. They are not all policemen? A. All policemen; yes, ai,




473
Q. The city contains about how many inhabitants? X. And
all the ward men of the various captains are recommended to us
by the superintendent.
Q. Through the captains? A. Through the captains.
Q. The captains nominate them to \he superintendent? A.
And the superintendent indorses them to us; the board does not
personally see those men; we do not personally examine them as
to their qualifications; we take it for granted that a man nominated by the captain and sent to us by the superintendent is
usually fitted for the place.
Q. And yet. you have taken no steps to secure the selection of
better men by the captains? A. No, sir.
Q. This city contains how many inhabitants? A. About two
Di1 lion.
Q. And your total detective force is what? A. We have 40
regular detectives- detective sergeants -and an additional
force, I should say, of 20 or thereabouts; that is the regular
detective force of the city.
Q. Including the two ward detectives? A. And including
the ward detectives, we have about 70 of those, two for each
precinct, making in all about 125 or 130, I should think.
Q. And if these men should die, don't you think it would be
possible out of the 2,000,000 of people to find men equal or their
superiors? A. Yes, sir; I think so.
Q. Why haven't you found somebody to take the place of
Captain Prices men? A. I think it is the duty of the captains
and superintendent to do that work.
Q. Why haven't you sent for the captain and instructed him
to do that? A. So far as Captain Price's men are concerned,
I am not satisfied that they are inefficient; I was not satisfied on
that trial that they were inefficient.
Q. You told the committee they were unable to get the same
evidence Byrnes got? A. They showed considerable activity in
that direction; I am satisfied they were unable, any of them,
to get in.
Q. Why is it Mr. Byrnes' men could get in and they could
not?
Mr. Nicoll.-I object to it Hasn't that gone far enough?
Chairman Lexow.-I think the witness might answer that one
question, and we will stop it.
The Witness —I can not answer it. They did their best; that
is all I can say.
Q. And it was on their evidence, and the evidence of Captain
Price and Byrnes' men, that you found Captain Price guilty?
A. Yes, sir.
LA     6(1




474
T Q. You were telling us, o; Saturday, of a visit which yon
made to the executive committee of Tammany Hall, with regard
to the reprehensible practices of policemen belonging to political
clubs; you are the chairman of the general committee of Tammany
Hall? A. No, sir.
Q. What position do you hold in that committee? A. I am
chairman of the executive committee.
Q. And it was to members of the executive committee that
you went? -A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who composed that executive committee? A. Up to this
year they were composed of one member from each Assembly
district
Q. Who were they? A. I can't recollect them all by name.
Q. Who was the leader in the first district?
Senator cantor.-What is the object of this testimony.
Mr. Sutherlanid. — I a  going to find out who this man
talked to.
Senator Cantor.- He talked to the executive committee.
What has that to do with the police department?
Mr. Sutherland.-He said he talked to them about the police
department.
Q. Was Michael C. Murphy the member from the first dis
trict? A. He was the member.
Q. He is the member at this time? A. Yes.
Q. He was one of the excise commissioners of this city? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Was he present?   A. I don't remember who was present
Q. When was that meeting held? A. In Tammany Hall.
Q. When? A. I think it was the early part of 1893; that is
my reeollection of it
Q. Was Patrick Divver one of the members of that committee?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. From the second district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he personally at that meeting? A. I don't say he
was.:
Q. Was Timothy D. Sullivan one of the members of the committee? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was he present at that meeting? A. I don't remember
that he was present.
Q. Was   oroner Fitzpatrick a member of that committee?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he present at that meeting? A. I don't recollect that.
Q. Was P. J. Scully a member of that committee? A. Yes.
Q. Was he present? A. I don't remember.
Q. Was your brotder, Martin, a member of that committee?
KL Yes, sir.
Q. Was he present? A. I don't remember,




475


Q. Was James W. Boyle a member of that committee? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Was he present at that meeting? A. I don't remember;
I say that to each one of them.
Q. Was John F. Scannell a member of that committee? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Was he present? A. I don't remember.
Q. Was Charles P. Murphy present? A. I don't remember.
Q. Was your colleague, John C. Sheehan, present? A. I don't
remember that; I think he was
Q. He was a member of the committee? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is still. A. Yes, sir.
Q.. Was William Dalton, another excise commissioner, present?
A. I don't remember that he was.
Q. Was he a member of the committee? A. Yes, sir; he was
and is.
Q. Can't you tell anybody that was present? A. I don't
remember; they were pretty generally present; that is all I
can say.
Q. How many were there all together? A. There were few
absentees, however.
Q. And there were 30 all told? A. There were 30 all told last
year.
Q. And of those 30 nearly all were present? A. I think they
were.
Q. Were you in the chair? A. I was.
Q. And did you bring up this subject from the chair? A. I
left the chair temporarily.
Q. What did you say to those people about it? A. I said to
them that my attention had been called to the fact that many
police officers had connected themselves with the social clubs
in the various Assembly districts, and that in many cases my
information was that they had connected themselves with several
clubs, with a view of getting political support for various promotions and matters they were interested in in the police force,
and that I thought it was an improper thing; I thought it was
injurious to the police force, and of no benefit to the clubs; I
thought, so far as possible, they should discountenance that praotice, and stop it.
Q. What else? A. Substantially that was all.
Q. What action was taken on that? A. There was no action
taken officially at the meeting.
Q. What unofficial action was taken? A. None that I know of;
it was left in that shape.
Q. Nobody replied? A. No, sir.




476


Q. You don't know whether your remarks met with favor or
not? A. I had some conversation afterward that I thought they
did.
Q. With who? A. With various of these members.
Q. Which one? A. I can not specify.
Q. Did you talk with Mr. Sheehan afterward?  A. I don't
remember that I did, sir.
Q. Did you ever have any talk with Mr. McClave about it after
that? A. I don't remember that I did.
Q. Did you have any talk with Mrr. McLain about it? A. No,
sir.                                      0
Q. You haven't talked with any of these gentlemen at any.
tinle except as Mr. Sheehan might have been present and heard
you talk of this executive meeting of Tammany Hall? A. Yea,
sir.
Q. You were telling us on Saturday, that after your commias
sioners received their protest with regard to policemen going
about in citizen's clothes and thereby learning who was violating
the Excise Law- you were telling us in that connection that one
of your reasons for discouraging that practice was that it would
have a tendency to induce the policemen to collect money from
saloon keepers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you stated that this committee complained to you that
some of these o:llcers were taking advantage of their opportouiti^s? A. That is my recollection of it.
Q And that tbyv intimated they were taking money from s, me
of the saloon keepers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did they intimate who these men were that were taking
money? A. No, sir; they did not.
Q. Did you as; them who they were? A. I do not recollect the
exact conversation, on my speaking; but that is my impression
I had that something was said about that; these men going
around in citizen's clothes had opportunities to take money from
the saloon keeper; that is as much as I can tell you about it, at
that time.
Q. Did you inquire who these men were that you refer to? A.
I have endeavored to ascertain, yes, sir.
Q. From whom have you made efforts to ascertain? A. I have
made inquiries from different people.
Q. Who are they? A. I don't recollect now who they are.
Q. How many people have you inquired of? A. Not a great
many; sufficient to ascertain the truth whether that was going on.
Q. Can't you tell us the name of one person of whom you
inquired? A. No, sir; I can not; it is some time ago.
Q. Can you tell us the business of the people who you inquired
of? A. No, sir; I can not.




477


Q Did you Inquire of the saloon keepers? A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. They would have been apt to know, wouldn't they? A. Yes.
Mr. Nicoll.- One moment, please; Mr. Sutherland, I do not
understand that this committee of Citizens' League, or whatever
it was made this address to the police commissioners, made any
specific charges that any particular police officer has been guilty
of practice of that sort.
Mr. Sutherland.- Yes.
The Witness.- No specific charges, no, sir.
Mr. Nicoll.- They charged the employment of police officers in
eitizen's clothes as spies, would give them opportunities of that
sort.
Mr. Sutherland.- More than that. You look at page 729 and
read your client's testimony, and you wont make that qualificar
tion. Seven hundred and twenty-nine, where he says these men
intimated these men were taking money from the saloon
keepers —actually were taking it.
Q. You say you did not go to any of these saloon keepers to
find out whether that was true or not? A. No, sir.
'Q. Did you go to the ward men that bad gone around in citizen's clothes? A. I did not
Q. What better source of information could you select than
the saloon keepers themselves? A. I had no opportunity of
meeting the saloon keepers themselves on that subject
Q. Couldn't you have sent for them to come to your office
I suppose I could send for them, but did not do it.
Q. You would not regard it as a slight offense to collect money
in that way, would you? A. No, sir; I regard it as a very serious
offense.
Q. A very heinous offense? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And would arouse your deepest indignation? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And would bring upon the head of the offender a great
punishment? A. Yes, sir.
Qu Tell what steps you took? A. I had some conversation
with superintendent of police on that subject.
Q. When? A. At that time.
Q. Where? A. In his office or in my office; I can not remember which.
Q. Well, at that time your conversation with the committee
was not in the presence of the superintendent? A. No; it was
not; certainly not.
Q. How long after the committee met there, did you have this
talk with him?       *
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Was that Superintendent Byrnes? A. I don't recollect
whether it was or not; I do not remember whether Superion




478


Eendent Byrnes was acting in command or not at that time in
the place of Superintendant Murray; the record will show;
Superintendent Murray was there at various times, and was
present at different times; I had some conversation, however,
that I remember.
Q. To whom else did you apply? A. To no one else.
Q. No one else except the superintendent? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you think the superintendent would have any personal
knowledge on the subject? A. I thought the superintendent
might be able to get information about it; yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what steps the superintendent took to get
information? A. I do not.
Q. Did you ever inquire of Lim? A. No, sir; I did not
Q. Did you ever receive any report from him? A No, sir.
Q. Had you ever heard it charged before that policemen were
taking money? A. I had heard rumors about it; yes, sir.
Q. From whom? A. I can not answer that.
Q. What do you mean by rumors? A. Vague rumors; I
don't know but I might have noticed something in the papers
about it.
Q. More than once? A. I don't remember that
Q. If you noticed only once, it would make some impression
on your mind, wouldn't it? A. There was some impression made
on my mind.
Q. How long before this communication came to you? A. I
do not remember whether it was before that communication came
or after that communication came; I am inclined to think it was
afterward; it was probably brought out by the fact that this
communication was sent to us, and I think the action taken by
our board created some discussion.
Q. Did this notice in the paper refer to a collection of money
by these persons going around in citizen's dress? A. Something
to that effect
Q. It did not refer to policemen collecting money under other
circumstances? A. I do not recollect about that.
Q. Did it refer solely to collecting money when they went
about it in citizen's dress on Sundays? A. I won't say that; it
tefers to the collection of money by police officers.
Q. You think that was after this interview with the committee?
'A. I think it was afterwards.
Q. Did you take any steps to investigate that charge? A.
NotLing except I talked with the superintendent on one or more
occasions about it; I think I had talked'with him several times,
Q. When did you talk with Mr. Byrnes about it? A. At police
headquarters.
Q. When? A. I can not fix tile time clearly; I think it waa
probably following the action of our board.,




479


Q. How soon after that action? A. Some time afterwards, I
thIL.k.
Q. You mean a couple of days or a couple of months? A. I
miean in a month or so.
Q. What was your talk with Mr. Byrnes? A. I said I had
heard these stories about police officers collecting money from
saloon keepers.
Q. Yes? A. And he said of course he had heard something
about it. himself; he did not believe there was much truth in it,
and he would look into the matter and see if there was anything
in it.
Q Do you know whether he ever did or not? A. I don't know
what action he took about it.
Q. Did you ever inquire what he had done?  X. No; I did not.
Q. Did you ever receive any report from him? A. No, sir.
Q. Then you dismissed the subject from your mind? A..-esto a very great extent.
Q. Has your attention been called to that subject subsequently? A. I don't think it has; that is, net within a year or
more; that is, for probably two years I have not heard anything.about it.
Q. Nobody suggested to you within the last two years that
the police were charged with collecting money? A. No, sir.
Q. You know Mr. Parkhurst? A. I know him; yes, sir.
Q. He has been sending communications to you right alon-,
has he not? A. Some.
Q. Has he made any charge of that sort in his communic.tions? A. No. sir.
Q. Has he made that same charge in the newspapers? A. I
don't know that he has; I have forgotten; he has made a great
many charges.
Q. Have the newspapers themselves made that sort of charges
against the policemen? A. I don't know that they have, either
Q. You say within the last two years? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you heard charges of this sort prior to -he la  tw.
years? A. Well, about the same time that the board of police
took this action, sometime in 1891, I think there was some talk
about that.
Q. Was there any talk about that,.aside from this p: rticular
protest of these citizens? A. There was some rumors T had
heard; yes, sir; I never could get any facts about it; there was
never any facts submitted to me.
Q. From whom did you Hear these rumors?  \. I heard them
as common talk.
Q. On the streets? A. Yes.
0


I




4s0


Q. And did you inquire of the people who gave you this common talk, the source of their information? A. I asked if they
had any facts about it, and they never could give any.
Q. Can you tell us the name of any person of whom you inquired? A. No; I can not.
Q. Was there more than one person? A. I should thinl there
was several.
Q. Have you heard it charged from any source that the police
of the city permitted for any reason whatever the existence Jf
houses of prostitution, gambling houses, policy shops, the sale
of liquor on Sunday, and the like? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long ago was that notion first broached to you? A.
I first learned of it about the time that our friend, Dr. Parkhurst, commenced his crusade.
Q. You have heard it very frequently since -'hen, iaven't you?
CA. Yes, sir.
Q. It is a matter which has been very generally discussed
throughout the community, hasn't it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And a great many people have talked to you -bout it?:.
fes, sir.
Q. Has your attention ever been called to any specific instances? A. No, sir.
Q. Never? A. Never.
Q. Do you mean to say that a number of places have not been
pointed out to you from some quarter? A. No, sir.
Q. No particular place?
Mr. Nicoll.-You mean particular places as places of paying
money?
Mr. Sutherland.- No.
Mr. Nicoll.- What do you mean by that?
Mr. Sutherland.-I mean by what I am now asking about,
places that are permitted to run in violation of law, without
regard to the reason of it. Do I make myself clear to you?
The Witness.- Yes.
' Mr. Sutherland. The commissioner said he understood.
Q. Was there any change in the status of the poolrooms of
the city of New York immediately after the last election?
Mr. Nicoll.-What is this subject now?
Mr. Sutherland.- I ask him whether there was ian  change
In the status of the poolrooms in the city of New York immediately after the last election.
Mr. Nicoll.-The election of 1893?
Mr. Sutherland.- Eighteen hundred and ninety-three.
The Witness.-I don't think they were; no, sir.
'   Was your attention called to the existence of poolrooms In
(the city after the last election? A. No, sir.
Q. You sometimes read the World? A. OccaSionally; yes, sir.




-;-  V J   -   -l -


'1 -,  X 


Q. Did you read the issue of Sunday of November 12, 1893?
LA No, sir; I don't know that I did.
Q. In which it was pointed out that the old place over 34
Park row was again in full blast? A. I did not read it
Q. Do you know of any such place as that? A. No, sir; I
don't; I know there has been some pool selling down there in
Park row for a number of years before the passage of that
act of the Legislature of 1893.
Q. And you don't understand that it was charged that that
poolroom opened next door to 34 Park row immediately after
the election? A. No; I do not; I understood there was some
charge against poolrooms that were running, in a way, some
time during the winter of 1893 or 1894.
Q. One of those was on the north side of Great Jones street?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Between the Bowery and Broadway? A. I don't know as
to any place.
Q. In a room back of the saloon? A. I don't know that
Q. You say it was charged generally that they were open?!A. Yes, sir. 
Q. By whom was it charged? A. I had heard of it, and had
spoken to the superintendent about it.
Q. From whom did you hear it? A. I don't remember; I may
have noticed it in the newspapers; I can not recollect now.
Q. You say you spoke to the superintendent about it? A. Yes
Q. What did you say to the superintendent about it? A. I
Said to him I heard some of these poolrooms were attempting
to run in violation of the law.
Q. Is that what you mean by " a way?" A. Yes, sir.
Q. They were attempting to run in violation of the law? A.
I don't mean that as the way, but in a mid way, as compared
to what they had been; that is, they were doing what is known
as a ticker business, as I understood it
Q. What do you understand by a "ticker" business? A.
Well, they have a place where there is a ticker 99 telegraph
instrument- where the names of the horses and the odds come
in on the tape; and they were doing business around that
ticker instrument in a small way, making odds as to the horses
Q. You had heard that from somebody? A. I had.
Q. And you spoke to the superintendent about it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you direct him to do anything? A. The superintendent did not seem to need any directions; he seemed to be
quite willing to do everything he could in that direction.
Q. Do you know what he did do? A. I don't know; he never
made any special report; he told me nothing of that kind
should go or.
L.       61




482


'-. Do you remember when this interview was had with the
supeintendent? A. I can not fix the time, but it was sonme
time after the adjournment of the Legislature, and I should
think some time in the fall of 1893; it might have been some
time after the election, or before it; I am not clear which; I
think it was after the election; that is my recollection.
Q. Do you recollect a time when the Paulist Fathers made
a complaint on that subject? A. No, sir; I do not; I do not
remember it.
Q. Do you remember there was published in the New York
World on Monday, December 18th, a long article on that subject,
containing, among ofher things, a statement of the Paulist
Fathers? A. No, sir; I do not
Q. Was your attention ever called to this statement made by
them: "We learn with regret that a number of policy-shops are
in operation in this neighborhood; we wish to have it distinctly
understood that this business is condemned, and we warn all
members of our congregation against this new source of temptation and danger especially to our young men?  A. That is the
policy-shops?
Q. Yes. A. I do not recollect that statement..  QDo you recollect that they charged: "It is a fact that these
places are increasing in number in this part of the city; they are
mostly on Eleventh avenue, among the poor people, who can
least afford to waste their money in such a way; one of the
places, I am told by a number of people, was a polling place at
the recent election, and was so designated by the police commissioners?" A. I do not know anything about that, sir.
Q. Was that statement ever brought to your notice? A.
Never.
Q. Would you not think that some friends of yours would go
and warn you of such a charge as this? A. They did not do it.
Q., Was this the first you heard of it? A. Yes; this is the
flrst I ever heard of it.
Q. There were a good many things that was said in the papers
of this general character? A. Yes. 
Q. And some of them came to your attention? A. Yes, sir; I
never heard of that before.
Q. You never heard of that before? A. No, sir.
Q. Was the subject of the police taking money a matter of disoussion there in the police board? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have a meeting of the police commissioners on the
19th of December, 1893? A. We had a meeting about that time;
I can not say aa to that exact date; what day was it - the day of
the week?




483
Q. That would be Tuesday. A. That is our usual meeting dayt
yes, sir.
Q. Was the conduct of Captain Schmittberger and Captain
O'Connor brought before the commissioners at that meeting?
A. I do not remember the exact matter.
Q. Did Commissioner McLean at that meeting call for the
letter-press book, so as to read the resolution theretofore adopted
on the board? A. On what subject?
Q. And did you say, "I voted against the adoption of the
original resolution, because I thought that the activity of Cap
tain Schmittberger did not show any willful neglect on the part
of Captain O'Connor, and for that reason I ask you, or anyone
else, to furnish evidence that he has done so or has taken money
for not doing iis duty?. A. I said something to that effect;
I do not exactly recollect as you read it so.
Q. And did Mr. McLean reply that he had not heard that
before? A. Yes; he said something to that effect.
Q. And your reply, was it not that, "It seems to me it is in
the public mind, and has been so stated in the press?" A. Yes,
sir.
Mr. Nicoll.- What are you reading from now?
Mr. Sutherland.-I am reading from the New York World
of December 28, 1893.
Q. What press had you seen that statement in before that
day? A. I do not remember.
Q. There were statements by Dr. Parkhurst and newspaper
comments on that from time to time? A. I do not remember
what particular papers.
Q. Then you were pretty thoroughly imbued with the idea that
the opinion was prevalent in the public mind? A. I thought
it was in the public mind.
Q. And such an opinion was, of course, quite derogatory to the
police of the city? A. Very generally so.
Q. If generally believed, it would certainly make them objects
of contempt, even to the general public? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Didn't you think that the police should be defended against
those charges? A. I did.
Q. And if they were not true, they should be disproved in the
public mind? A. Yes, sir.
Q Didn't you think that the general prevalence of charges of
that kind was detrimental to the discipline of the force? A
Yes, sir.
Q And its tone and efficieney? A. I did; very much, sir.
Q What did you db tc restore the tone and efficiency to the
police? A. The board of police was waiting for any evident
of that character to be brought to it.


/




(84; Q. It's a case of masterly inactivity? A. No, sir; we havebeea
waiting for evidence of that character, having -'vited it.
Q. There has been no cessation of these charges by the public?
A. We have an investigating committee.
Q As the result of those charges? A. I believe so, and we
are waiting for the facts.
Q. What investigation has the police commissioners ever instituted to discover the falsity of those charges? A. No special
Investigation.
Q. Have you instituted any investigation? A. No, sir; wo
have invited any person who chose to make oonmplaints of that
character to submit them to our board.
Q. You have from three to foulr thousand men to arrest under
'those charges without taking any steps yourself to clear them
or convict them? A. We have taken no steps further than that,
as I say, to invite all persons who had any charges or facts on
that subject to bring them to us.
Q Who did you ever inform? A. The general public
Q. How? A. By the resolution of the board.
Q. Where is that resolution? A. It was adopted in the meeting of 1891 that I refer to, the tail end of the resolution of 1891.
Q. But this matter came up on December 10, 1893? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do then? A. Nothing, especially.
Q. Nothing specially? A. No, sir.
Q. And those charges have been made all through the summer,
and fall of 1893? A. We invited the Parkhurst Society to submit any charges they had in reference to the police and they
refused to do it.
Q When was that resolution passed? A. In 1893, at the time
Lou refer to.
Q Can we get a copy of that resolution? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you get it this afternoon? A. I should think so, yes;
I will send a telephone message to the clerk of the board and
he will get it here by 2 o'clock.
Q. Was that commaunication in reply to any oommunication
received from Dr. Parkhurst? A. Yes, sir; it was.
Q. Will you have the communication as well as the resolution
Eiee? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who else did you invite to bring proofs outside of Dr.
Parkhurst's society? AL No other person.
4. Who else? A. No other person appeared before the board
or communicated with us on the subject
Q. How else did you ever invite the presentation of evidence?
K. No other way.
Q. Except by the adoption of these rules? A. That is all




485
/
Q. Tliaf resolution was transmitted to Dr. Parklursts soctety?!L Yes, sir.
Q. And was it tansmitted to anyone else?' A No, sir; it was
in reply to a communmioation received from his society
By Senator Bradley:,.Q That was published in the newspapers? XA  Yes, sir;
published in the newspapers
Q. Have you any clippings of these publications? A. I do
not think there would be any difficulty to get them; I did not
keep the clippings myself; it was published in full in all the
newspapers at that time. 
Q. At this time was your attention called by the World in
particular of places that were running in violation of the law?
A. I think the World for a long time published any number
of places where policy was being played, and so on.
Q. Was your attention called by the World, December 20th,
to the resort at 216 West Twenty-third street, kept by Mrs
Smith? A. Not that I recollect.
Q. Not that you recollect of? A. No, sir.
Q. Did the World ask you in that article whether any report
with regard to the character of that place was ever made to
you over the head of Superintendent Byrnes?  A. I do not
remember that, sir. 
Q. Was no such report ever made to you? A. I did not
recollect there was any such report
Q. Do you recollect the place 216 Wes Twenty-third street?
[A No, sir; I do not..
Q. What the character of the place is? A. I know nothing
of it
Q. Do you remember that the World asked you whether a
certain police captain, now in command of twenty-second precinct, knew this Mrs. Smith intimately? A. I do not remember;
no, sir.
Q. Did you ever hear of such a thing as that? A. Never.
Q. Did the World ask you whether this captain "backed"
the house, and whether everybody in that precinct didn't know
the fact? A. I do not recollect it, sir; I did not read it.
Q. How, sir? A. I say I did not read it.
Q. Was your attention called to it by anybody? AL No; it
was not..
Q. Did the reporters of the World ever visit you? A. No, sir.
Q. Never? A. They have reports at headquarters and from
Ihe office, I,suppose.,,
Q. They never talked with you about this partiular place?
&. This specific case; no, sir.
Q. Never? A. Never.




&86
Q. Did they ever invite you to read these publications? X
No, sir; they wanted me to be interviewed; yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Martin, the rules and regulations of the department
require that there be kept at police headquarters a list of all
disreputable places, don't they?  A. In.the superintendent's
office, I think.
Q. Does not Rule 31 require that there shall be kept at the
office of the superintendent books of record in which shall
be entered among others, "5. A record of houses of prostitution,
assignation houses, gambling-houses, disorderly and disreputable
houses of every kind in the city of New York, with the names
of the owners and keepers thereof?" A. Yes, sir; that is the
rule.
Q. That is the standing rule of your department,? A. Yes, sir.
Q. It has been in force for years, has it not? A. For years;
yes, sir. 
Q. Are the police captains required to male reports from
which this list is kept? A. They are required to make these
reports
Q. Make the reports from which this list is made up? A. I
think that since Superintendent Byrnes has been superintend.
ent he has required some additional reports from the captains
in addition to those provided for in that rule.
Q. I did not read anything in the rules about the duties of the
captains?   A. Captains make those reports to the superintendent
Q. This rule that I read requires transcribing of this memow
randa in the book? A. I suppose they are transcribed from the
reports.
Q. Did you ever examine these reports or this record? A No,
sir; I never have.
Q. Not even when the World called your attention to this
specific case? A. No, sir; never; my attention was not specially
called to what the World says; I did not notice it at the time, and
I have never looked at these reports.
Q. Didn't you know that ir the World of December 20th, you
were asked pointedly about the reports that had been made by,
Captain Devery with regard to No. 204 Allen street, with regard
to 23 Bayard street, with regard to 30 Bayard street, with regard
to 101, 117, 128 Canal street, 91 and 173 Chrystie street, 8, 12, 78
Delancey street, to 70, 141 Eldridge street, to 109, 131 Forsythe
street, to 21, 29, 33 Rivington street, to 137 1-2 Hester street? A.
No, sir; I never read the article.
Q. Was your attention ever called to it? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever give Captain Devery any orders in regard to
protecting these louaes? A. Never in the world,




487
Q.Was It called To your,attention that the World chargelI In
this articles that boih y ei and Mr. Sheehan had given ordei s
direct to Oaptain Devery in regard to protecting t.'hese houses
named? A. -1 don't remember it, sir.
Q.Don't remember It? A. No, sir; I think I have heard someThing, about them.
Q. About that 'erticle?  A. About that particular part; yes,,
'Q. From whom did, you hear it? A. I don't remember.
Q. When did you hear it? A. About that time.
Q.About the time 'it was published? A. I suppose so.
Q. Did you send to get the article then? A. No, I dlid not
Q. Then its purport was pretty well communicated to youi? Al
So far as that matter is concerned, I heard it.
Q. You think you heard it read? A. No; I do not think- I heard
It read, but heard it, stated.
Q.So that you tlbought you knew pretty well what the World
had published that day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do about it? A. Nothing; it was a lie; it was
ntrlue in every particular.
Q. An-Td to whom did -you communicate the fact of its untruthness? A. I did -not think there was any necessity of corn~nnicating it to any-body.
Q. Did you ommi-inicate it to anybody? A. I did not
Q. You let the matter stand without any reply whatsoever?
iAL Y es, s ir.
Q. Did you think that the men under, Captiain Deirery would
'elieve that publication true or not? A. I do not know whether
lieyv would or not; I know li was absolutely untrue.
Q. Of course, if the men under Captain Devery believed thb.
chiargre to be tr'ue, it would. weaken your influence certainly wit'h,themt; would it Dot? A. I suppose i t would.
Q. They would no longer have respect for you as their superior
officer? A. If suppose not.
Q. How many men were there under Captain. Devery? A. I
dhould say close to 100.
Q.Almost all of them can read? A. They are all required to
read.                                  /
Q. And they are 'in the h~abit of scanning newspapers, are they
not? A. I su'ppoee they are.
Q. When you were informed that this occurred!Iu the newspaper. the, World, ('.id it'not o-ccur to you that so-me one of these
100 members might0* get hold of it? A. No, it did not oceni' to me.
Q. Or some of their friends might tell them of the charges in
the World? A. I did not think of it




488


Q. 'And that if the charge did come to their attention and
they believed it to be true, there would be an end of discipline
in the department, so far as you were 'cocerned? A. I did not
think so; no, sir.
Q. If the men believed that you were giving orders to  a.ptaln
Devery to protect these particular places they would not have
that respect for you as a superior officer? A. I do not thinl
anything of the kind.
Q. I asked whether, if the men believed anything of that kind,
they would continue to respect you as their superior officer?
Chairman Lexow. —It seems to me, Mr. Sutherland, and It
seems to a majority of the committee, that his opinion upon
that subject is not a matter of great materiality. Having evidence before us, we can judge whether he ought to come to
that conclusion, as a reasonable man.
Q. I wish to have him tell the committee why it was he toolc
no steps before to clear his skirts of this most heinous charge?!A. I want to say that I do not think a man 'n New York that
knows me, thinks there was a word of truth in that statement.
Q. You do not think the World believed it when they pullished it? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you not sue the World for libel? A. I have not; no, sir.
Q I suppose you know it had been charged that the police
force were, and through your procurements, and that of your
colleague Sheehan, put in domination of Tammany Hall? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And that charge has not been an infrequent cne? AL It
has been made on some occasions, I think.
Q It has been made often? A. Yes, sir; probably so.
Q But that charge has been published in the newspapers, has
It not? A. Yes, sir.
Q Published by tle World? A. Particularly by the World;
yes, sir.
Q. And very often in the World, has It not? AT. Probably so;
yes; since the 1st of January.
Q. Well, before the 1st of January, was it not? A. Very
rarely, I thiink.
Q Do you remember the article published December 26, 1893,
in which it was charged "that the power of the police department has been perverted to inflict punishment on many of tkose
who refused to be blackmailed to any extent by Tammany, and
Commissioners Martin and Sheehan with Commissioner McClave
are in fact the Tammany power of the police department; that
Superintendent Byrnes has been powerless to prevent this; thatthe captains and roundsmen and patrolmen defied the superin



489
tendent, disobeyed his orders, and followed the commands of
irresponsible politicians;" do you recollect that was charged in
the papers? A. I do not recollect that particular article.
Q De you know that it was charged that Mr. Martin and Mr.
Sheehan was responsible for this condition of affairs because
they had backed up Tanmmany heelers against the superintendent? A. I know that was stated in the paper.
Q. Yes? A. No; I do not
Q. Of this article, or any other article? A. No; ol, I hav3
heard it, as having been published in the World, I do not recollect any particular article.
Q. That same article has been published more than once, has
It not? A. Substantially; yes,
Q Haveyou seen it published in the World that the district
leadere were the real captains of the police departments? A. L
have heard it was so published.
Q. When did you hear that? A. About this fhne.
Q. About the time of this article of December 26th? A. Yes;
and running along.
Q. For quite a while? W. For some time afterward; yes, sir.
Q. You heard that Tammany Hall district leaders were the
real captains of the police of the city of New York? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And of course your acquaintance with the district leaders
was intimate? A. Yes, sir.
Q Did you believe the charge? A. No, sir.
Q What steps did you take toward refuting it? A. I didn't
think it worth while to take any steps.
Q. Then you did not take any steps? A. No, sir.
Q. Ever talk with anybody about it? A. No, sir; not par,
ticularly.
Q. Do you remember the charge?
Chairman Lexov.- Will you ask the witness whether he took
action to ascertain whether or not these charges were true?
Mr. Sutherland.-Yes, I will get to that 
The Witness.-I know that was not true.
By Senator Bradley:
Q Did you investigate it? A I did not thidn  It neeessary
to investigate it.
By Mr. Sutherlandt
'Q. Then you die not investigate It? W. No, dr:
Q. Did you inquire who wrote those articles? A. No, sir.
Q Ever sent to the World to investigate these charges? t,
No, sir.
if       a62




490 


Q. Ever tarke steps to bring about a cessation of these charges?
t. No, sir.
Q. Ever remonstrate with anybody for the publication of them?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know it was charged in this same article of the
World that Mr. Martin and Mr. Sheehan have conspired to
betray the department into Mr. Croker's hands, and that they
have used the police for that purpose? A. That was ridiculous.
Q. Do you know the charge was made? A. Not particularly;
no.
Q. You say it is ridiculous? A. I do; yes, sir.
Q. And there was no foundation for any such charge? X.
Not the slightest.
Q. Did you know the World published a couple of columns of
an incident which they claimed substantiated that very charge?
A. The World publishes a great many things.
Q. Did you know the World published a couple of columns of
an incident which they claimed substantiated that very charge?
A. No; I did not.
Q. In its issue of December 26, 1893? A No; I did not read
that.
Q. Anybody call your attention to it? A. No, sir.
Q. It would be news to you if I invited you to read some of
them? A. No; I don't think it would.
Q. Why not; where did you hear it? A. I know the World
has been engaged in a crusade against me for a number of
months.
Q. They have been engaged in publishing specific facts, haven't
they, or that which they claimed to be? A. They have engaged
in publishing specific lies against me.
Q. They made them very specific? A. I don't know how
specific, but I saw they were lies, so far as I was concerned.
Q. You have been interested enough to glance over them?
A. Yes; I glanced at them.
Q. Casually? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Never to see if they were kept up and published? A. No,
sir.
Q. Did you never examine them closely to see what they con,
sisted of? A. No, sir; I did not pay any special attention to
them.
Q. And did none of your superintendents ever inform you of
the specific character of some of these charges? A. We have
talked generally on the attacks of the World.
Q. Who is we? A. Myself and some friends.
Q. What friends? A. I don't recollect; my gentlemen
acquaintances and friends, as I have met themn




-         *                     j       0                                                                                    -                                           0


491
Q. Very often? A. Quite frequently; a number of times.
Q. Did you ever to to the executive committee of Tamtunmny
Hall on that subject? A. I never did.
Q. You did not know they had any influence with the World?
A. I should not think they had; no, sir.
Q. Do you remember that it was charged in the World that
if you were to look over the records in the police department
and read of the transfers of Sergeant Schryer of Fourteenth
Street and East Fifth Street station. to the first precinct of
Old Slip station, you might then recall your interview  with
Mr. Roesch in regard to Schryer? A. I do not remember that,
sir.
Q. Does my reading of it refresh your recollection any? A.
No; not particularly.
Q. Did you have an interview with Mr. Roesch in regard to
Mr. Schryer? A. I do not recollect that I had; I do not remeiy
ber the first thing about it
Q. Did M~. Roesch go to police headquarters and Interview
you with regard to the transfer of policemen under Oaptain
Schryer?  A. He has been to me about the transfer of policemeIn.
Q. Did the transfer of Mr. Sehryer result in consequence of
this? A. I do* not remember, sir.
Q. Sergeant Schryer? A. I do not remember, sir
Q. What grievance did Mr. Roesch make known to you? A
He made no grievance known to me.
Q. Made no, complaint to you? A. No.
Q. Why were they transferred; in the interest of the officer?
A. I suppose his request was; I suppose it was in the interest
of the officer; we have these requests come frequently.
Q. And men are also transferred as a matter of punishment
sometimes, are they not? A;. Sometimes; yes, sir.
Q. This is a way of punishing them, is it not? A. Sometimes;
yes, sir.
Q. And in some instances you said they are tramsferred for
a cause? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There has been a large number of that kind in the last
few years, haven't there? A. Yes, sir; a number of these.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Who authorizes the transfers? A. The board of police.
Q. Unanimously? A. Yes; I think so; as a rule.
Q. In this particular oase? A. I don't remember thsia 
ticular case at all.




L


492


By Senator Bradleya          - 
Q. Don't a majority ru~le in the board; tha~t Is, of course, Itt
don't require a unanirnous vote? 'A. No; whatever action was.taken in any transfer, was taken by, the board of police.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Was it brought to your attention that the World charged
upon you tlie responsibijity for excise arrests in the Seventh
'Assembly district o~vir the heads of captains, and solely to
punish oiffenders against Tanmany? A. No, sir; it was not
brought to my attention'
Q. Do you recall the case of Henry Bleler, the owner of the
saloon on the northwest corner of Third street and First
avenue? A. I never met him
Q.And the publication in the World did not come to your
attention? A. No, sir. -
Q. Did you ever hearr from, anybody that he o~r ailybody else
owning thAt place had leased -the hall above his saloon to
Assemblyman Otto Kempner for the location of the headquarters of the Citizensa' Democracy of the Seventh Assembly
district? A. I did not hear of it.
Q. That the occupant of -this saloon, Mr. Bleier, was a member
of that organization and was also a mlember of the German
Saloon Keepers' Protective Association of the Seventeenth ward?
A. I never knew Bleier or anything connected with him.
Q. You know Captain Dougherty? A. Yes, Sir.
Q. He was in command of that precinct? A. He was at that
time.
Q.- Do you know Detective Mallon? A&. No, sir; I don't think
I do; I do not think I have met the officer.
Q. Was he in that prec~inct? A. I think he was one of the
precinct's detectives.
Q. Was it brought to your attention that soon after this
saloon keeper opened that room for the headquarters, that,
through Porice Detective Mallon, he was arrested for violating
the Excise L-aw? A. It w-as not brought to, my attention.
Q. Itwas not? A. No, Sir.
Q. Was it ever brought to your attentlon that the police were
gcoing about Mr. Kempner's, district, and ordering his picture
taken down? A. No, sir.
Q. Was it ever brought to your attention that Mr. Kem'pnor
had filed a written complaint to Superintendent Byr'nes~ givingthe place, the street address and the names of the detective?
A. Superintendent told me at that time that the complaint was
inade to lnthat It was made; and that he was investigating it.




j


1493 -Q. t~ea? A. And I had a conversation with thie slnpertna
tendent at that time.
Q. -What was that conversation? A. We h-ad a conversation
generally about the complaint made by M1r. Kempner to him
in reference to police interference.
Q. Yes.? A. And that he was engaged In investigating it; 
think that-was substantially the conversation.
Q. Anything else? A. Not that I recollect, Wir.
Q. Did he inform YOU that he had told these men it was theli
dtty to act as policemen only, and not as political workers?  A.
I think he did.
Q. Did you understand they continued to act as political work,*
ers, notwithstanding that? A. I did -not.
Q. Do you know it was charged in the World that there was
on account of your overruling the superintendent? A. I did
niot, anid did not interfere with him in any way'; and did not
overrule him on that occasion or any other occasion.
Q. Never? A. Never.
Q. How about these officers going around in citizen's clothes 
A. That was the action of the board of police.
Q. Wasn't you one of those acting in that? A.. Yes, sir.
Q. Then, in your capacity of commissioer you disi overrule
Iimn? A. No.                                             A
Senator C)antor.- He said the board overruled him.
The Witness.- I do not know that bU overruled him~ he nevezr
made any, objection-to it.
By the Chairmani:
Q.I Would like to ask you a questlion in regari to Mr. TKemp..
iier'i charges; were those ever investigated by you? A. No, sir.
Q. By your board? A. They did not come to me, but came
to the superintendent.
Q. You knew of their existence? A.. Yes, sir; the, superin..
tfhndelit told me about it; and made an investigation.
Q. 'The superintendent did? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you inquire into the fact 'in relation to the matter?
A. No sir;;Idid not
Mr. Nicoll. —If the committee's recollection concur's with uijn%
F -understood Mr. Kempner withdrew the charges, because he
-ouild not get justice.
Q. You knew that instance'of charges, didn't you? WA. Yea,
air.
Q.Did you not consider that the charges involving- concerted
action upon the part of the police against a candidate, standing
for political honors in a campaign, was a serious charge, to make'
*tgainst the department? -A. Yes, sir.








494.


Q.And did you not eonsider those cbhai~ges of sufticien; t ra-vity
to investigate them? A. I do not consdder I should investigate
them; the superintendent was engaged in investigating themn.
Q. Ts it not customary to investigate charges made against the
discipline of the force by the police commissioners? A. No, sir;
we always refer Ohat. to the superintendent for investigation.
Q. Did yoa not sit as a trial court upon charges? A. After
charges are made by the superintendent, or by any other superior
officers of police; after the charges are made.
Q. In no other cases? A. In no other causes,, no, sir.
Q. Do j ou mean to be understood that it is a rule of your
department not to entertain a charge at all unless it comes to
you with the seal or approval of one of your own officers? A.
~O I do not say that; I say this, if Kempner had complained to
the board of police direct about this matter, that the board of
police would have referred to the superintendent for investigration.
Q.Then no matter what the notoriety of the charge may be;
no matter what the gravity of -the offense charged may be, unless
It comes to the board of police commissioners through the instrum
mentality of the police department, you do not consider it your
dtvt to investigrate at all? A. I knew fhis particular matter was
being investigrated, isir.
Q. You do not consider it as a part of your duty as police com,
tnissioner, after knowing of the existence of such a grave charge
agrainst the discipline of your force, to cause an investigavtion.
-yourself to be made? A. I did not; I thought -the superintendent,would make a thorougli investigation.
Q. Did you inquire afterward to ascertain whether or inot he
ka~d made a thorough investigation? A. Yes, sir; he told me be
kad.
Q. And you dropped it at that point? A. I dropped It at that
point?By senator 13'adleyl
QO, He never made any official report to the board as a bioard?
F& le never made any official report to the board. 
By the Chairmant:
Q. You betard, did you not, shortly after the campalgn of last
rear, that the p~olice were charged with active a~nd passive interv
1~erence -with veters at the polls at the Second Assembly aitd
Thlird Assembly districts? A. I heard some statements in the
papers to tbhat effect
Q.You read the statements to that effect? A. Yes, air.,






495
Q. Were those statements brought h'ome 'o iyu on varioias
occasions, subsequent to the election? A. There has never been
complaint made to the board of police against any police offliere
Q. I mean in the public prints, or police interferences? A. As
the testimony before this committee; yes, sir.
Q. Did you not know of it previous to this being testified to
before this committee? A. I did not.
Q. Had you not read it in the public prints since the last cleotion? A. Very little of it in the papers; I think I saw some
general statements, not specific charges.
Q. Was it not a matter of general report, known to you, subsequent to the last eection, that during last election in a very large
number of election districts of this city the police had actively
interfered, had violated the law, and had thrown their influence
in favor of one political party against another political party? A.
It was not known to me, and on the contrary I had every reason
to believe they had acted fairly on election day, particularly in
the Second and Third Assembly districts.
Q. Was the matter contained in my last question not a matter
of general rumor throughout the city? A. It was not.
Q. Did you rot read it in the newspapers? A. I did hear something about it; but very little.
Q. Was your attention not called to that same fact in connection with the indictment and prosecution of inspectors of election and poll clerks in the month of January of this year? A.
No, sir; they were election officers, and police officers.
Q. Didn't you know that in those election districts, police
officers had been charged with substantially the same dereliction
of duty in violation of law that was charged against the inasectors? A. No, sir; I did not-on the contrary I was told on
election day —I was at headquarters all election day from 7
o'clock in the morning until after the polls were closed, ant
until midnight -and I was told while the election was in progress —had frequent conversation with InspectorWilliams and
Superintendent Byrnes —that the election was progressing
quietly, and everything was all right in that section of the city.
Q. And you mean to have this committee understand that you.
had not heard between the date of last election and the taking
of the testimony by this committee with reference to election
interference, that there had been no interference or violation
of duty or law on the part of the police of this city in the
Second and.Third Assembly districts, especially on last election?
A. I think I can say I heard littlH or nothing about it, until
after this committee commenced to take evidence.
Q. Have you made any investigation into any of those matters?




W,,We 1ieave noit aso yet; T have taflked -to the superinfenffenI,
and he is making notes of the various oases referred to with
a view to investigation and reporting to the board; I have
talked with him. on tihait anljeot, aind also talked to the counsel
of the department on -the subject.
Q. You mean Mr. Nicoll? A. Yessir.
Q. Do you ever make your own initiative in an investigation
fInto the discipline of the police force unless a charge or complaint is made before you?, A.. Very rarely that I personally
make an investigation of it; I should let that go to the superIntendent; I have communications sent to me from time to time
bearing on that subject, complaints against officers, and they
all go through from me to the siuperintendent, or through the
-board.
Q. Do you wish the committee to understand that absolutely
Mo complaint or charge of any kind was made waith ref-grenee to
police interference at the polls during last election, subsequent
to election day? A. So far as I am concermed~ or have any
knowledge about It, r do mean to say that
Senator Cantor.- The witnesses all testcify to that,
Sen-ator Bradfley.- The witnesses testify to that.
Q. I am -not speaking of written complaints; I am talking
of any complaint? A. I am talkinag about any complaint; there
was ti complaint made to me on election 'day by Mr. Kemnpner
and Mr. Fennell; they came tc my headquarters and spoke to
me about some matters of the election district, aid I went down
stalrs to the inspector's office, and Inspector MoAvoy was sent
over to this particular place, and he came back after some
length of time, within h-alf an hour, and reported to me that 1't
was all right, and everyfhing was all attended to, and they
were satisfied; that Is all the complaint that was made to me on
dec-tion day about &!1e election. 
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q.Was there not some comnplaint made to you? 'Ar There was,
by Mr. Smith, chairman of the Republican coounty committee, and
Mr. Charles H. Murray, I think.
Q.Leader of the third district? A. They were there several
'thnes, and the superintendent and Inspector Williams told ma
Uhey had visited the various dilstricts with those gentlemen, ani
fully satifed them.
Q. Did you hear the complaints made by thosed gentlemen
when they came there? A. No, sir; I heard 'they made comnplaint about watcihers not being admitted within the rmil, Iin




W97


Q. Wasn't tiha tEe general complaint? A. I th* if was a
enered complaint of those gentlemen.
Q. Did you hear they came back several times with that'complaint? A. They were there-I think Mr. Murray, from infor.
mation I heard, made his headquarters at the police headquart,
ers; he was looking for votes at police headquarters.
Q. He was at police headquarters all day long, wasn't he, with
complaints? A. Yes, sir-I don't know about complaints; he
did not make any complaints to me.
Q Did you hear him make any complaints whatsoever? A.
No, sir; I was in my room upstairs on the top floor.
Q. You were down stairs conferring with Byrnes? A. Occarionally; yes; I was not there any time Mr. Murray or Mr. Smith
made that complaint; but I understood they were making corm
plaints.
Q. You knew, in pursuance of those complaints, It was necessary for Byrnes to send out inspectors? A. Yes, sir.
Q And go to those polls and rectify the matter? A. Yes, sir;
I knew that
Q. You never inquired what the complaints were? AL They
were stated to me at the time, the general character of the complaints, either by Superintendent Byrnes or by Williams, and I
think by ommissioner McClave.
Q. Did you investigate them, to see whether they were well
grounded? A. I did not investigate them, outside of the investigation by the superintendent or the inspectors I knew they
were in fault if they kept a man outside the rail and did not
permit him to go inside the place of voting.
Q Did you ever inquire who the policemen were that kept the
watchers outside the rail? A. No, sir; the matter was in the
hands of, the superintendent, and he made no report on the
subjeot; I suppose it was an error on the part of the policemen,
and when their attention was called to it, they corrected it.
Q. What made you suppose so? A. That is what I understood from what was told me by Inspector Williams and the
superintendent; and they said, also, in these various polling
places the space for the election officers, the three inspectors of
election and the two poll clerks, and two ballot clerks, making
seven election officers in all, the voting booths usually ran from
four to seven and eight polling booths in these districts, and the
place was all taken up, and if the watchers were inside the polls
there would not be any room for the voters, and it was suggested by the election officers to remain outside the rail. It was
suggested for convenience; so as to not block up the place of
voting, to remain outside; I know the law allows them inside.
Q. You knew this was the rule? A. Yes, sir.
L.       63




498


Q. You provided the place where this voting was to be eldM 
WA. Yes, sir; we provided ample accommodations for that pui
poe, as a rule, as I stated before. J
By YChairman Lexow:
y Q. Was it entirely in the Second and Third Assembly districts
that you had the misfortune of giving too small accommoda&
t:ons? A. No, sir; there was no exception made in those dis
tricts, any more than in any other part of the city~
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. How many other police commissioners were at headquartn
ers on election day last fall? A. I think Commissioner McClave
anld Commissioner McLain, and Commissioner Sheehan was there
at one part of the day; he was there several times; I do not know
that he was there all day; I think all the commissioners were
there on election day.
Q. Do you remember seeing each one of them there on election
day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I understood you learned that Mr. Kempner's complaint was
withdrawn? A. I learned that recently.
Q. You did not learn it at the time? A. No, sir; I did not
Q. You did not see the letters written to Superintendent
Byrnes? A. No, sir; I did not see them until brought on recenlly before this committee.
Q. What information did you have that complaint was made
by Mr. Kempner? A. The superintendent had spoken to me
about it.
Q. State whether he did not inform you that Mr. Kempner
claimed he could not have an impartial trial before your board?
A. No, sir; he did not.
Q. This is the first you heard of it, on this trial? A. Yes, sir;
if he has that impression, it would be difficult -o correct it.
Q. Did you see the letter Mr. Kempner wrote to Superintendent Byrnes on that subject? A. I think I saw it brought out
on this examination.
Q. And in making his report Superintendent Byrnes did not
send a copy of that letter to the board? A. He never made t
report on that subject.
Q. I thought you said a few momenrts ago that Mr. Byrnes had
investigated this matter and made a report? A. No, sir; the
superintendent and I had some conversation 'y which he told
me he would investigate it; I understood him to say he had
satisfied Mr. Kempner.




499


I.There never was'an ofickal repofrt made? 27. NO) si.
Q.Have you or the board ever called upon him to make an
ofIlcilJ report.? A. No, sir.
Q The World is not agreeable reading to you; do you e-7er
read the Herald? A. Well, yes; I do.
Q. Are you aware of the fact that the New York Herald haft
called your attention to divers places in the city of New York
that are runni-ng contrary to law? A.. No; I do aot recollect
that the Herald did.
Q. IDon't recollect anything of the Sort? A. I recollect thea
Herald had some articles here,' with reference to policy shops,
1 tlhink.
Q.About when was that? A. Within a, month.
Q. Did you see the article, itself?- A-. Yes; I did.
Q And that article gave numerous places, and specified
sanoigst other things, Mr. Parker's place, 298 Elizabeth street?'
A. 71 do'not remember the particular place.
Q.Were Is 298 Elizabeth street? A. I can't say Just what
part; it must be very convenient to pollce headquarters
Q. It Is within, a hundred yardis, is It not? A. Yes; I shouldl
Ohink so.
Q. Tat Is, to police headquarters? A.. Yes, cir.
Q t would take but a few minutes to step over from. your,
b~ffic~e? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You coruld send a man there in three minutes? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you observe that it wais ch-arged, in this Herald articlk&
that a policy shop was running in that place? A. No, sir; I
did not; I did not read the article carefully; I glanced it over,
and looked at it generally.
Q. Did you notice th-atethe article published a picture of theis
plaea, 298 Elizabetff street? A. I don't remember that It did.
Q. Look1c af itE and see if that refreshes your recollection? A.
Yes; I think I noticed that.,
Q.And you recognized the place when you saw the picture,
&dnldi you? A. No; I did not recognize the place.
Q. You never observed it before? A. No; I never have.
Q.With that sketch, with. the number underneath It, you
would not have any difficulty in identiIfving it? A. No;, T
think not.
Q. Did you send anybody there to find out about It?:k 1,
did not.
Q.Di you observe in this article in the Herald -that No. 156
East Ninety-eighth street was men{Iotned as the central office of'
MIr. Parker's policy society? A. Yes, si1r.
Q. Where is that? A. It is 'in, the -upper portion of the city;
on, th — east side.




Q No difficulty in finding that place, Is there? A. No, sir
Q. Did you send anybody up there to investigate it? A. No,
sir.
Q. Do you recollect that in that article your attention was
c.tlled to 138 Crosby street as being another place? A. I don't
recollect that particularly.
Q. And that a picture of that place was also published in the
Herald? A I remember looking at this article; I suppose I
must have looked at these cuts.
Q. Where is Crosby street? A. Quite convenient to police
headquarters.
Q. It runs right into Mulberry, does it not? A. No, sir; It
runs into Bleecker street
Q Runs from Bleecker to Mulberry? A. No; runs south fronm
Bl0eecker street.
Q. It is the next street to Mulberry? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And 138 is not a stone's throw from headquarters?  L t
is not very far.
Q. Did you send up there? A. No, sir.,
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Is it your prorvince to send anybody to places? A. No, EOr
It is not my province to send anybody.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. It was not your province to send people to inquire of u
place? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you inquire about these places? A. I did not; I had
no doubt the superintendent was already on those matters.
Q. Did yoa bring the matters to him particularly? A. I did
not, particularly.
Q. Did you, unparticularly?. No, sir.
Q. You did not say anything to him about it, did you?.
Not that particular matter; the superintendent brought charges
against Captain Westervelt on the basis of this article
Q. Based on this article? A. Yes.
Q. Vhen were those charges tried? A. Tried within two
weeks. 
Q. And what was the finding of the board? A. The board
found the captain guilty.
Q. Guilty of what? A. Neglect of duty in not keeping those
places closed; that place particularly you referred to
Q. Which one? A. In the upper portion of the cityj
Q. The one up in Eighty-eighth street? A. Ninety-eighth
street; and places in connection with that




501


Q. And what was the fine? A. The fine was 10 days' fine.
Q. Amounting to how many dollars? A. I should think over
$50; $55, about
Q. And those charges were based upon this article in the,Herald? A. Yes, sir; I was thinking about the fine; I think it
was five days' fine; I want to correct that; that would be aboat
$27 or $28.
Q. The same fine you imposed on Captain Price? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that the regular fine for failure on the part of police
captains to close disorderly houses? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever fined anybody more than that for failure tQ
close those houses? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who? A.- Captain Martens
Q. When? A. In his trial at the same time with Captain
Price.
Q. How much was he fined? A. Thirty days.
Q. Have you ever fined any other captain more than five days
pay for failure to close disorderly houses? A. No, sir.
Q. How many captains have you fined for failure to close disorderly houses? A. Captain Price, Captain Martens, Captain
Wr(stervelt and Captain Howey.
Q. Nobody else? A. I think that is all.
Q. That is all the captains you have ever fined? A. That is all
the complaints we have had before us.
Q. In all the years you have been commissioners? A. Those
are all the complaints we have had before us.
Q. I understood you to say to the committee that no complaint
had blon made to you after election with regard to the conduet.
of the police on election day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Either verbally or in writing?  A. Either verbally or in
writing.
Q. Was there not widespread indignation among the Republicalts on account of what they claim was violation at the polls
participated in by the police? A. It was not brought to my attention, if there was that indignation.
Q. Wasn't it published in the newspapers? AL I don't think It
was; nothing that I know anything about
Q. And no single man accosted you on the subject? A. Never.
Q. Never verbally or in writing? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know Mr. Alfred E. Conklin? A. There is such' a
man; I know him.
Q. There is such a man? A. Yes.
Q. Has he a residence in this city? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he ever write you a letter on that subject? X. I think
x received a letter from Mr. Conklin before the election; I do not




502


think I have received any since election; I may be mistaken on
that subject.
Q. lidn't lie request of you an opportunity to inspect the
records of the patrolmen against whom these charges were nlmade
of fraud, intimidation and personal violence having occurred on
election dayv  A. I think he sent me a letter asking that certain
records of every police officer should be submitted to him.
Q. Oh! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that before election? A. No; since election.
Q. Exactly; did'it occur to you if there was any reason why he
wanted that? A. He gave no reasons, no specific reason.
Q. No specific reason? A. No, sir; and no name.
Q. For all you know about it, it was a matter of idle ouriosity
on his part? A. It might be; yes, sir.
Q. Did you understand it was anything else? A. I didn't know,8hat he wanted them for.
Q You didn't -now what he wanted them for? A. No, sir.
Q. Tid you preserve his letters? A. I think his letters were
presented to the Ibard of police, and acted upon there.
Q. Did you pre:serve it? A. It is preserved on the files of the
department.
Q. Can you produce it? A. Yes, sir; I thtnk so.
Q. Does it run in these words, "President James J. Martin:
In the investigation of election frauds, our committee of lawyers
may p)roscute several men on the police force; will you kindly
direct the clerk to give me the records of such patrolmen, the
partieular men to be charged? I would like to have at once the
record of 2491 cf the Charles street precinct; I think his name is
Martin; I make a general request, so as to avoid a long correspondence?" A. I think that letter was received.
Q. It now occurs to you that there was a name specified in this
letter -a man named Martin? A. Yes.
Q. A man to whom he referred? A. He made no charges to us
about it
Q. Didn't this letter state they desired to prosecute' members
of the police force on account of election frauds? A. They did
not prosecute them, and presented nothing to us about 5Martin
or anybody else.
Q. Didn't this letter state he intended to prosecute them in the
criminal courts? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He desired the records? A. Yes, sir; and which we did not
give 1hem.
Q. You did not? A. No, sir.
Q. You declined to assist in prolsecuting policemen? A. We
declined to give records of the force, as he requested; I do




6503S


not know whether he received the record of that one or not;
I am not clear on that subject; I want to say under that, that
the board of police did not see what the record of police offices
had to do with any action that comanittee on election did.
Q. And when you learned that Mr. Conklin desired to prosed
cute policemen before the criminal courts of this city, you
did not think it best to give them the record of the policemen?
A. No, sir; I did noi; not for the reason that he was going to
prosecute them.
Q. For what reason then?    A. Because I say it was an
improper thing to do it, and the board took that view of it.
Q. You was the first one to speak of that? A. The come
munication was presented to the board.
Q. And you immediately said it should be refused? A. Yesa
sir.
Q. And not only the general request, but the specific request
was refused? A. Very likely it was
Q. Is it true? A. I think it is..
Q. What was your reason for declining to furnisi thaI
record? A. I think it was improper to furnish the records of
police officers in connection with any complaint made against
them outside the police department; the record of the police
officers are for inspection in the police department, not for
public inspection.
Q. But if a policeman was charged with the commission
of a crime, did it occur to you that it was a wise thing to keep
from the court and jury a knowledge of his record? A. No,
sir; his record would be furnished on a trial.
By Senctor Bradley:
Q. That is, if demanded by the court?  Y Yes
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. But, if requested for the purpose of indictmnlent it would
not be furnished?
Mr. Nicoll.-You indict a man on account of his record?
Mr. Sutherland.-It might assist his indictment.
The Witness.-It would not be furnished, so far as I am
concerned.,..
Q. Did you think the dignity of the board was invaded by
the request? A. I thought it was an unusual request.
Q. Did you think the dignity of the board was invaded by,
the request? A. No; not specially.
Q. Did you immediately after the meeting closed say that you
had no other motive for refusing the request, except to prei




504


serve thie dignify of the board? A. I do not rememli5er making
any such -remark.
Q. Did you -know the account of this transaction. was pub..
Uished on the 18th daly of December, 1893, in the -New York
World? A. No, sir; I did no-t
Q. And that it quoted you as stating, "I had no other motive
other than to preserve the dignity of the board?" A. It may
have been so published.
Q.But it was not called to your attention?7 A. N~o, air; it
wa s not.
By Senator Bradley:
Q.And you never rem-ember making the remark~dolyou? A
Ido not
By Mr. Sutherlands
Q. Now, in answer to the chairman of the committee,, you
said your attention was not called subsequent to the election
until the sittings of this commit-tee to the chiarge that policemfen. had committed any acts in violation of the Election Law?
A. I did so, state to the chairmana.
Q. You were in error in rega-rd to Mr. Conklin? A. I was;
I1 overlcioked the letter of Mr. Conklin.
Q. Now, that letter stated there was a lawyers' committee
prcsecuting these frauds, did it not? A. I understood there was
a committee prosecuting election frauds; yes, sir.
Q. This let-ter stated it was on behalf of,the comnmittee, who
desired' the records of policemen? A. Yes, sir.
Q., Didn't you understand from that that there were charges
pending before that committee, or unuder investigatiou before
that committee, against policemen? A. I suppose so; yes, sir.
Q.What did you ever do about inquiring ais to these charges?
A. Charges of the lawyers' committee?
Q. Against the policemen? A. I have not done anything.
Q. ID-id you take'any steps, or. request anybody to take stepts
to ascertain the character of those charges? A. I's'aid I had
talked with the superintendent about it in connection with the
evidence before this committee.
Q.. Before this committee at. its sessions.? A. No, sir; I did not.
Q You took no srteps to ascertain the character of the charges
agrains-t the police? A. No, sir; there was not any complaint
made against the police force.
Q. Here was a letter from Alfred R.. Conklin informing you that
the lawyers' committee was eingaged in pr~osecuting policemen?
A. Yet,, Sir.




505


Q. And in connection with that, they desired the record of
the policemen? A. Yes.
Q. Did you take any steps to ascertain the charges against
those policemen? A. I did not
Q. Or with reference to the identity of the policemen charged?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not? A I supposed it would come to us in due corse
of time.
Q. You pursued the same policy of waiting that you had in
regard to those charges? A. Yes, sir; I waited
Q. And simply sat still? A. Yes; I had been waiting
Q. And laid down evidence in your lap? A Yes; I.w was it
ing for evidence.
James J. Martin, recalled:
Direct examination (continued) by Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You told us this morning that in consequence of the publfi
cation in the New York Herald, of Thursday, March 8th, Captain
Westervelt was put upon trial, coovicted, and fined five dayds
pay? A. Yes, sir.
Q In what precinct was Iaptain Westervelt? A. Twenty.
eighth precinct.
Q. Which one of these houses mentioned in the Herald article
was included in that precinct? A. A number of them.
Q. All of them?. A. Quite a number; I should think that the
complaint against Captain Westervelt covered eight or ten
places, as near as I can recollect now.
Q. Where is the twenty-eighth precinct? A. It is located
between Seventy-ninth  is located between Ninetyixth street
and One Hundred and Sixteenth street
Q. That is, north and south? A. That is north and south.
Q. From east to west? A. Running between Fifth avenue
and the East river.
Q. Well, that don't take in Third avenue, then? A. Yes, sir;
Third avenue is east, toward the river.
Q. Then that takes in Second and Third and Fourth and Fifth
avenues? A. Yes, sir; Fifth avenue is the westerly boundary.
Q. Is One Hundred and Seventh street in that precinct? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Is West Houston street in that precinct? A. No, sir.
Q. Did this article make a complaint against a house on West
Huston street? A. No, sir; that article-I don't know as to
the article; I said that I saw the article generally.
Q. You have already testified as to your recollection as to 298
Elizabeth street, and 138 Crosby street? A. Yes, sir.
L.       64




606
'^O-re those places located within Westervelt's precinct?
AX No, sir.
Q. In whose precinct are those located? A. Two hundred and
ninety-eight Elizabeth street is in the tenth precinct
Q. Who is the captain of that? A. Captain Stevenson
Q. And in whose precinct is the Crosby street place? A. The
same.
Q. Any complaint made against him? A. No, sir.
Q. On Saturday, December 23, 1893, the World published the
statement that you and Commissioner Sheehan were overruling
Superintendent Byrnes in his efforts to enforce the law; was
your attention called to that article? A. No, sir.
Q. The article states that the World knows that Superintendent Byrnes was defied by the commissioners and that the
people know that the character of the police department is
determined by its head; Mr. Martin and Mr. Sheehan, with Mr.
McClave, are practically that head; the World charges them,
and not the captains, with the attempt to oust Superintendent
Byrnes; was that article called to your attention? A. I think I
heard of that article; yes.
Q. About the time it was published? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you stated that these other matters which came to
your attention were not investigated by you because it was
expected Superintendent Byrnes would investigate it? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Did you turn this matter over to him for his investigation?
A. No; I did not
Q. Who did you ask to investigate it? A. Nobody; there,wasn't any truth in it.
Q. Did you pay any attention to the charge?. A. No, sir.
Q. Not even to contradict it? A. No, sir.
Q. And was the charge renewed in the World of December
27th, in an editorial? A. It may have been
Q. And you paid no attention to that? A. No, sir.
Q. Did the same editorial charge that George F. Roesch had
virtually command of the police in the fourteenth precinct, and
that policemen who would not do his bidding were transferred
to other precincts? A. What is that?
Q. Do you remember a charge in the World of December 27th,
that George F. Roesch had virtually command of the police of
the fourteenth precinct, and that policemen who would not do
his bidding were transferred to other precincts? A. I think
I saw something of that; yes, sir.
Q. What did you do about that? A. Nothing; I did not
believe that was true.




607


Q. You knew about the transfer of policemen, didn't you, so
fa:' as you were concerned? A. Some transfers; yes, sir.
Q. Did you inquire of the other police commissioners in regard
to the transfers they had made? A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. You remember that the same article charges that the police
had been employed to blackmail saloon keepers and others
with the threat that the law would be enforced against them
if they did not comply with the wishes of the district leader?
A. No, sir; I did not; I may have seen it in the article.
Q. Was not the very next sentence, the one from which I have
just read, that the police in that district were employed to blackmail saloon keepers if they did not comply with the directions
of the district leaders? A. I do not recolleot noticing it, nd
would not believe it
Q. Did any such statement come to your ears? A. No, sir;
not in any shape; I should take notice of it.
Q. Did anybody say to you that it was being talked about?
A. No, sir; I did not take any notice of that.
Q. In what shape did it come to your attention? A. In no
way. 
\,Q You never heard of it? A. No, sir
Q. You never heard that the police were being used to
blackmail the saloon keeper? A. I never did, except as I stated
ona the stand.
Q. You mean the time this citizens' committee came to see
you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, we will find out about that a little later; do you
remember that the World, on December 27th, in a?ery long
artdcle covering three columns made the same charge that the
commissioners were allowing the police to be manipulated in
the interest of the district leaders? A. I don't remember the
special article; I remember the World had a number of articles
of that character.
Q. Do you remember a peeting that was held which was
reported on December 27th; that is, on Wednesday, the meeting
had been held the day before? A. Very likely the meeting
was on that day. 
Q. In which you are reported as saying, "There has been a great
deal of talk of late about the duties of the commissioners anl
I would like to find out just what those duties are;" was any
such expression as that used by you? A. I don't recollect it.
Q. You don't remember it; do you mean to say it did not
occur? A. I do not say it did not; if I read the article I might,
be able to say something more about it.
Q. I will show it to you; see if it refreshes your recollection?
A. No, sir; I do not recollect having used that expression




508


J  Did the World send a reporter to interview you about
hat matter? A. They may have.
}i       Q. Don't you know? A. Well, the reporters are continually
asking me to be interviewed.
Q. Didn't they come -to you with regard to these various
*l  ~  charges made in the columns of the World? A. They may have.
Q. Don't you know they did? A. Yes; probably they did.
Q. Don't you remember the young man that came to see
you? A. No; I do not. 
Q. Do you remember he came, stating that the World d'sired
to publish anything you desired to answer to that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you say to him? A. I refused to say anything.
Q. Do you remember that the next day- A. I was defendIng myself in the newspaper-in the World.
Q. No; didn't it occur to you that your continued silence on
these subjects might be construed as a confession of guilt?'
A. No, sir.
|.j      Q. Do you remember the World reminded you ia an article
of the 28th of December, in these words, "Meanwhile, Mr.
Martin and Mr. Sheehan, you should not think that silence
means safety; the World has presented specifi charges against
you; to you, Mr. Martin, has been given a chance to vindicate
ypurself, and you have declined it; the World agreed to print
all that you said; the World sent a reporter to see if you would
speak; you refused to do so; do you think you are safe in
believing that the people are entitled to no explanation;" do
you remember they prodded you with these words? A. Yes, sir.
Q. With this suggestion sharply brought to your notice, did you
btill decline? A. I still declined, and I still decline.
Q. You would not decline to answer my question? A. No, not
at all; I am talking about this newspaper warfare.
'Q. Do you remember that the Wine and Spirit Gazette published certain chlarges in regard to your relations with the Liquor
IDealers' Association? A. Yes, there was a marked copy of that
paper sent to me at the time.
Q. At the time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then you certainly have a distinct recollection of that
article? A. L do; I read the article.
Q. You read the article charging you with that? A. Yes.
Q. You remember the article of December 28, 1893, stated there
was a time, and it continued up to about two years ago, when
Tammany, through its police agents, regularly levied blackmail
on the liquor dealers of this city under pretense of affording them
protection from punishment by the restriction put on their business by the law? A. I remember that
Q. Do yol remember the article stated the revenue from this




509
source amolufed fo more than half a million dollars a year? L
Tes; I remember it so stated.
Q. You remember that the article stated that it could be readily
understood that so rapacious an organization as Tamnmany Hall
would be exceedingly loath to forego so large a revenue; and
that under no circuxmstances would it do so without an effort
to secure a quid pro quo? A. I think that was in the article.
Q. Do you remember the article then charged that.thereupon
Mr. Croker and Police Commissioner Martin called up the president, and some of the officers of the Central Association of Tjiqcor
Dealers, and after procuring from them a full roster of all. the
liquor dealers' associations in the city, entered into a compact
with them  by which political blackmail was substituted for
pecuniary blackmail? A. Yes; that is in the article.
Q. Did you ever get a roster of the liquor dealers of the cdt
of New York? A. Never.
Q. Did you ever call up the officers of the Central Association?
K. Never. 
Q. In connection with Mr. Oroker or anybody else? A. Never.
Q. Do you remember that the article stated that under the
terms of this contract forced from the liquor dealers' under penally of having their business interfered with, they were made
vassals of Taumany which no longer wanted their money, and
heretofore permitted them to continue their traffic, only on the
one condition, that they must continue their support to Tammany Hall? Do you remember the article contained that clausa?
A&. Yes, sir; I do.
Q. Do you remember the article also referred to an interview
with your colleague, Oommissioner Sheehan having been published in the Sun in these words: "The big shakeup among the
captains 18 months ago originated with the commissioners,
It had been said that some of the captains were receiving mioney
from saloon keepers, dnd the commissioners decided it would be
a good plan to change them all around. This was done after
conferring with the superintendent After the big shakeup
liquor dealers all over the city were notified through the various
local dealers associations, that they ipust not try to pay money to
any police official. No liquor dealer pays any money to the
police at this time?  A. I remember the article had that quotation.
Q. Do you remember the interview which it quotes which was
published in the Sun? A. No; I can not say I do.
Q. Was your attention attracted to the second expression in
this interview that the liquor dealers were notified through the




610


Liquor Dealers' Association not to pay any money to polioe
officials? A. I saw that
Q. Is it true they were so notified? A. I don't know.
Q. Did you ever ask Commissioner Sheehan whether that
information was ever sent out? -A. No, sir; I never did.
Q. Did you ever call his attention to this charge that in that
interview he aad said so and so? A. I do not remember speaking to him about it.
Q. Was the matter ever brought up in the board of police
commissioners? A. No, sir; never.
Q. Did you ever call his attention to the fact that in this
interview he referred to the present time as one during whicht
money was not paid: "Not a single liqurt dealer pays the
police at the present time?" A. No, sir; I did not call his ato
tention to it.
Q. Did those words attract your attention to It? A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't it strike you from reading that interview that 3
wae a plain intimation that previous to that time money had
been paid to the police? A. It did not so strike me.
Q. Why did you think there was any necessity of sending out
an order to the liquor dealers not to pay to the police? 
Senator Cantor. —He has not said there was mny such order,
Mr. Nicoll. —He has not said any such thing.
Chairman Lexow.-You can ask him if he has.
Mr. Sutherland.- I am referring to an interview in whicli
Commissioner Sheehan stated that there was such an order
sent out.
Q. Did you ever receive word of that article? A. No, sir;
never, except in that article.
Q. And did the statement in this article that such an order
had been sent attract your attention in che slightest degree?
A. Yes, sir; I read the article.
Q And your eye lit on that statement? A. I read the arti.
cle generally; yes, sir.
Q. Did you inquire of anybody whether such an order had been
sent? A. I did not
Q. Did it occur to you whether it was a matter worthy of if
quiry? A. No; it did not.
Q. You assume the statement was true? A. I assume the
statement was not true.
Q. It was reported to le an interview with your colleague?
A. Yes.
Q. In which he was reported as having said so and so? A.
Yes.




511


Q. Did you believe he had said it? X I don't know whether
he did or not.
Q. Well, assuming that he said it, didn't it strike you that
it clearly indicated that previous to that time money had been
paid to liquor dealers?
Mr. Nicoll. —I object to it. Is it fair to take an article in a
newspaper and assume a conversation between a reporter and
a board of commissioners, and then adopt that as if that was a
fact, proved or established, and cross-examine on it?
Chairman Lexow. —It seems to me it is competent for the
counsel to ask the witness if he has testified that he had knowledge of that character, of the statement made, as to whether or
not he thought it was not within his province to investigate the
matter.
Mr. Sutherland.- I was coming to that.
Mr. Nicoll.- He has stated as to the statements in that article
that they were all untrue  Of course, he can not state, unless he
was present at the time, as to the conversation reported there
wftt  Mr. Sheehan, but as to the rest of the article he stated it
contained a pack of lies.
Chairman Lexow.- As I understand it, the counsel desires to
ascertain whether or not, although it had been brought home to
the mind of this witness, that an associate of his own upon
the police board, had made certain statements -whether or not
it was his duty to have investigated those statements.
Senator Cantor. — He said he assumed that they were untrue.
Chairman Lexow.- No, not these statements that Commissioner Sheehan made. He does not assume them as untrue; I
don't so understand the witness.
Mr. Nicoll. —He assumed that was not true, that he had no
knowledge of it, as he was not present
Q. I will ask the witness over again, so there will be no misunderstanding; did you state that you assumed that the alleged
Interview with Mr. Sheehan was a fabrication? A. I had no
knowledge on the subject
Q. I ask you whether you assumed that was untrue? A. Well,
T can not say I assumed it was untrue; if Commissioner Sheehan
knew anything about it, I did not; that is all.
Q. So far as you know, it might have been quite true that he
had made these statements?   A. He may have had some
information on that subject, and made these statements.
Q. And the possibility was in your mind that he might have
made the statement? A. Exactly.
Q.?)id you go and inquire of him? A. I did not; I did not
think the article amounted to anything.
Q. Did you think the statements which were reported to have




512 


been made by him were of no consequence? A. Well, I did nof
pay much attention to his statements in the article; I thought
the article as a whole amounted to nothing; there wasn't any
truth in it 
Q. There your colleague was quoted as stating that a notice
was sent to the Wholesale Liquor Dealers' Association to notify
the retail liquor dealers that they should not any longer pay any
money to the police; that was of so little consequence you did
hot call it up? A. I did not follow it up.
Q. And your colleague is quoted as stating no money was paid
to the police? A. He is so quoted.
Q. And you did not think that was worth following up? A.
No, sir.
Q. Was your attention prodded by other papers besides the
Wine and Spirit Gazette? A. I don't know whether they did
or not
Q. Did not the Sun quote from that article? A. I don't
remember.
Q. Didn't it say that the Wine and Spirit Gazette of this city,
which represents the big distilleries, adds its testimony to
that of Mr. Oroker's, while, at the same time, attacking Tammany Hall; it avers that until three years ago over $500,000
a year was levied as blackmail; that the burden became so
great, that the complaints reached the grand jury room; the
latter, in a presentment, substantiated the charge, and by some
mysterious means the testimony given before the grand jury
found its way into Mr. Croker's hands; do you remember that
appeared in the Sun? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember it appeared in any paper? A. No, sir.
Q. Nobody called your attention to such charge? A. They
never did; that is the first time I ever remember hearing that
article.
Q. Do you remember the same thing was substantially said
in the Mail and Express?   A. I do not see the. Mail and
Express very often.
Q. You did see tie World? A. Occasionally.
Q. Do you remember, on the 30th day of December, the
World, referring to this article in the Wine and Spirit Gazette,
used these expressions, "An item of interest to Tammany as
well as to the public appears in the Wine and Spirit Gazette,
an organ of the liquor dealers, under the heading of 'Politioal
Blackmail;' the story says, in part, that until two years ago
over $500,000 a year was levied as blackmail by Tammany on
saloon keepers, and the burden became so great that complaints reached the grand jury room; the latter, in a presentment substantiated the charge; now, by some mysterious means,




513


the evidence given to the grand jury found its way into Croker'i
hands; thereupon Mr. roker called up the president, and some
of the officers of the Central Association of Liquor Dealers, and
after procuring from them a full roster of all the local liquor
dealers in the city entered into an arrangement by which political blackmail was substituted for pecuniary blackmail;" was
that published in the Sun? A. That was the substance of a
reprint of the Wine and Spirit Gazette; I do, not remember
seeing it.
Q. And that the article closed with these words, " How lt
this, Mr. Martin; speak out, regardless of whether you. used to
ring up fares or whether you forgot to do so;" do you remember
that? A. I do not; I do not think there is much truth in the
main part of the article any more than there is at the close;
I never "rang up a fare" in my life; I never "rang up a fare
in a railroad car in my life."
Q. I did not say you did? A. The World said so.
Q. I did not read it that way; I read this, that Mr. Martit
was asked to speak up in answer to those charges, and yo
never spoke? A. No, sir; not to the World.
Q. Did you to anybody? A. I am speaking here now.
Q. Did you ever, before this? A. No, sir.
Q. Speak in response to these charges? A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Martin, you have a force of upwards of 3,000 men
scattered all over the city? A. Yes, sir; nearly 4,000.
Q. All reading men? 'A. Yes, sir.
Q. You knew these articles were likely to find their way
into the hands of policemen? A. Very likely.Q. Didn't you think you owed it to the police, to the dignity
of the police commissioners, to the patrolmen and roundsmen,
that some steps should be taken to stop this talk, either by
showing its falsity, or else by getting out of the way? A. You
could not stop a newspaper.
Q. Couldn't you show the falsity of those charges? A. To
a newspaper?
Q. To the people? A. Not to a newspaper.
Q. Can you in any manner? A. Not-there may be some
means of showing it to the public; yes, sir.
Q. Couldn't you have called upon somebody to investigate
these charges? A. No; I did not see that there was any opportunity to investigate it at that time.
Q. Here was the direct charge that politioal blackmail wa
exchanged for pecuniary blackmail? A. Yes; and it was a lie
from beginning to end.
Q. Was there any way to get shut of it? A. Yes; and that i
being shown up now to the committee.
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614


Q. Was there no way you could have shown it up before this
committee was appointed? A. No, sir; I don't think there was
Q. Did it ever occur to you that at least a general denial by
you would be serviceable to the force under your command?
A. 1n the World?
Q. A general denial by you, put forth in some form or other?
A. No, sir; I did not think it necessary; I think the members
of lie force knew I had no part in any such arrangement.
Q But you say the members of the force, if permitted to go
about in citizen's clothes, might sr forget their duty as to
receive- money themselves? A. Yes, sir.
Q. For which reason you desired they should go only in uniform? A. Yes, sir, as a rule; as a general rule, yes, sir; in
special oases they might go in citizen's clothes.
Q. And yet, believing that the men in your command were so
liable to fall in the presence of temptation, if dressed in citisen's clothes, you believed these stories about their collecting
political blackmail were unfounded, that there was no need
of any denial on your part, no need of any investigation or
demonstration of the falsity of the charges? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Upon whose recommendation was Captain T)every promoted from being a sergeant to the position of captain? A. Well,
he was, after examination.
Q. Well, upon whose recommendation?
Mr. Nicoll.- One moment.
Mir. Sutherland.-I am waiting one moment
Mr. Nicoll.-The witness is about stating "after examination"The Witness.-I was going to state "After he was qualified
for promotion."
MIr. Sutherland.- There is no charge that he did not go
through the formality of qualifying.
Mr. Nicoll.- It is only fair that he should have that fact
before the committee.
Chairman Lexow.- I think the question is open to the objection that it assumes that somebody recommended Captain
DC-vCTy for promotion. I think that the proper question will
be to ask the direct question whether anybody did.
Q. How is that; did anybody recommend Captain Devery's promotion? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was it? A. He was recommended by many political
friends as being a party for promotion.
Q There came a time when he was made a captain? A. Yes,
air.
Q Did anybody recommend that he be made a captain at that
time? A. Yes, sir.




515


'W Who0   A. You mean names now   Individuals?
Q What association of individuals recommended him? A.
Well, he was recommended by a number of people.
Q. Wasn't he recommended practically by Tammany Hall T
fU No, sir.
Q. He was not? A. No, sir; he was recommended by a great
many people in Tammany Hall.
Q I don't doubt that A. But as a formal recommendation
trom the organization, no; there never was such a recommends.
tion
i Wasn't his appointment charged up to Tammany Hall?
b_ Yes; in my mind; it was a Tammany Hall appointment; on
'rnammnny Hall recommendation.
Q. Charged up in your mind? A. Yes, sir.
Senator Cantor.-You do not have that up in Rochester.
AMr. Sutherland.-We have had something up in Rochester, of a
different sort.
Q. When was that appointment made? A. Well, I can not
recollect the exact date.
Q.- Was it the 30th day of December, 1891? A. I should think
it was about that time; yes, sir.
Q TUpon whose recommendation was Michael Doherty made a
captain? A. On practically the same recommendation.
Q. Was it not identically the same recommendation 9 A. Not
Sq to individuals.
Q. Oh, as to Tammany Hall? A. Yes, sir; as to being recou.
mended by Tammany Hall people; yes, sir; they were not the
same people, but they were men in Tammany Hall.
Q. Isn't there something more than that about it, Mr. Marthl?
A, No, sir; that is the truth.
Q. I don't doubt that it is part of the truth?
Senator Cantor.-Part of the truth.
Q. In fact, I am well aware of- it; but is it all the truth? A.
Yes, sir; absolutely.
Q. Do you keep books? A. I have some memoranda; yes, sir.
Q. On that memoranda this appointment of Captain Doherty,
Captain Devery - each of those appointments are charged up
to Tammany Hall by name, are they not? A. Yes, sir; I think
they are.
Q. And no other name? A. And no other name.
Q. Is that also true of the appointment of Captain Gallagher?
A. Yes, sir; I think it is.
Q. And that was made the 6th day of May, 189 T A. Abou*
tia. time yes, sir.




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Q. Is it also true of the appointment of Thomas F. McAvoy
as inspector? A. Yes, sir; I think it is.
Q. And that was made April 29, 1892? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Naturally these gentlemen would feel obligated to  ammany Hall about election time, would they not? A. They might.
Q. Well, is it not your judgment that they did? A. Yes; to
a certain extent, I think so; yes.
Senator Bradley.-You would not think much of these men if
they did not; ingratitude is a terrible crime?
Mr. Sutherland.' I think it would be well if they did not.
Q. You were elected president when? A. I think it was on
the 3d of March, 1892.
Q. l'hen you were president of the board of police commis.
sioners at the time of the general elelcion in 1892? A. Yes,
sir; for the trot time.
Q. 'That was the first election day under your presidency of
the board (of I (.lce commissioners? A. Yas, sir.
Q. AXJd tllat was an election at which United States marshals
were by law pr vided? A. Yes, sir.
Q And expected to be present? A. Yes, sir; that was the
congressional year.
Q. It was the presidential year? A. And congressional year,
paticularly.
Q And the laws of the United States provided that the United
States marshals should be at each polling place, and the United
States supervisors of election? A. Yes, sir.
Q You were familiar with those statutes? A. Yes, sir.
Q It became your duty as police commissioner to understand
the power and prerogatives of all who should be charged with
pr(serving the public peace?  A. Yes, sir; I tried to under.
stand them.
Q. Mr. Mairtin, was there a great deal of public excitement
just prior to that election, with reference to the possible br aches
of peace on election day? A. Well, there was:ome excitement
about it; yes, sir.
Q. And who was the United States marshal "or the southern
district of New York? A. I suppose John W. Jacobus.
Q. Was he written to and did he write letters in reply in
reference to the conduct of the marshals on election day?- A.
I don't remember that, sir.
Q. Were not the newspapers full of that sort of thing for a
week before election? A. There was talk in the newspapers
about breaches of the peace on election day.
Q. And did not the general committee, or the State eomm;ttee




517


or the national  onmmittee write letters and publice ltefem
addressed to Mr. Jacobus upon the subject of the power of the
United States marshals —the limitations upon their power; the
power of the police, etc.? A. I think there was some letters at
that time.
Q. I remember it very distinctly; I was here at the time
and had some hand in the matter.
Q. And wasn't there some apprehension expressed lest there
should be some conflict between the police and United States
marshals? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And wasn't there apprehension very general that such conflict would result in bloodshed? A. That might be the result
Q. Was it not generally thought that there was danger of that
result? A. That might be the result.
Q. Wasn't it generally talked that there was danger of that
result? A. TLwre was some talk about it.
Q. Didn't that talk come to your attention? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go to police quarters on Sunday previous to elewt
tion day? A. Yes, sir; I did.
Q. Is it your practice to go there every Sunday? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you go there in your capacity as a member of the
executive committee of Tammany Hall, or in your capacity as
member of the board of police commissioners? A. I went there
as president of the board of police.
Q. What for? A. Well, a few days before that the superintendent- Superintendent Byrnes- came to me with his order
that he was sending out to the police in reference to their conduct at the election polls on election day; he submitted them to
me, and I read it, and told him I thought it was all right; he
said he was going to have a meeting of the captains on Sunday,
before election — Sunday afternoon; I think it was 3 o'clock, or
thereabouts; and I said I would like to be present; he said, he
would be glad to have me there; that is the reason I went.
Q. I did not catch that last answer; excuse me? A. I s4aid I
would like to be present, and he said he would be glad to have
me come there.
Q. Present when this order was promulgated? A. Yes, sir;
to the meetings of the captains.
Q. Then you knew there was to be a meeting of the captains on
that Sunday? A. The superintendent told me that.
Q. Is it not the practice of the superintendent to give orders
on the Sunday before election? A. I can not say as to that; I
suppose that is his practice.
Q. Had you ever attended any conversation-or have you
sinee attended any meetings on Sunday? A. No, sir; I have not.


I




518 
Q. This is tie only insiance at which you were present? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. You say Mr. Byrnes invited you there? A. Not invited me
there; I said I would be glad to be present, and he said he
would be glad to have me there.
Q. Who else was present? A. I do not think anybody but the
captains, superintendent of police, and myself.
Q. No other members of the board of police commissioners were
there? A. No, sir.
Q. Did any other member of the board know you were going
to be there? A. I did not tell them about it.
Q. You were not delegated by them in any respect? A. No,
sir, I was not; I was president of the board.
Q. But your presence, so far as the rest of the board was concerned, was without any special authority? A. That is true.
Q. Or any special commission from them? A. No, sir; no
special commission or authority.
Q. What did Mr. Byrnes do after you got there? A. Mr.
Byrnes, awaiting my arrival, read his orders and explained his
orders to the captains and inspectors.
Q. What explanation did he give to them? A. Oh, some gen.
cral explanation, as each matter in order was taken up.
Q. Can't you tell the committee anything? A. I can't recollect anything in relation to the order; it is a printed order and
shows for itself.
Q. Can you recollect anything he said? A. No, I can not recollect anything special he said; I thought it was full and complete
as to the duties of thp captains and police officers, as to their
conduct, the conduct ot the policemen at the polls, to protect
voters, to preserve the peace, to allow watchers in the polling
place, and a variety of things of that kind; that was covered;
the keys of the election boxes, and all that sort of thing was covered by this order, and he spoke of each matter as it came up.
Q. How long did his remarks take? A. I should think 15 or
20 minutes.
Q. Then what happened? A. Then he came to me and asked
if I had anything to say.
Q. What did you say? A. I said, as near as I can recollect,
there was very little to be added to what the superintendent
tlas said; that he had covered the ground fully; and I thought
that all I could say in addition to what he had said, was that
we were going to have a very important election on Tuesday
next; that there was a great deal of excitement in connection
with that election; a very large vote to be polled; something
like 275,000 votes to be cast; that it was vital that we should
have peace and quietness on election day; and I hope they would




519


de all they could to keep the city quiet on election day; I sid,
If any persons committed any disorder, no matter who they
might be, whether they were citizens or marshals, that they
should be treated alike, and arrested for it"
Q. Anything else? A. That is all.
Q. That is all you said? A. Substantially, as near as I can
remember.
Q. Did you say anything else about United States marshals,
except if they committed disorder, they should be arrested? A.
No, sir; I did not.
Q. Did you say anything about the character of these marshals? A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. What sort of men were they? A. No, sir; I did not, as I
recollect; I don't think I described them.
Q. Didn't you say these marshals were, in substance, the dregs
of the city? A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Didn't you say they were the lowest class of people that
could be picked up? A. I did not; I don't think I named any
of them in that way.
Q. Didn't you say the officers of the general government had
purposely selected the scum of the town as marshals? A. I
am sure I did not.
Q. Have you any recollection of anything of that sort being
said? A. I have a recollection I didn't say anything of the kind.
Q. Will you swear positively you did not? A. Yes, sir; I will.
Q. Did you say to the police that the prerbgatives of the police
were superior to the prerogatives of the marshals? A. No, sir;
I did not, except with an intent to treserve the peace.
Q. Tell the committee what words you used? A. I said that
if any disorder was committed or any breach of the peace at the
polls by any person, whether citizens or United States marshals,
that I thought they should be arrested for it.
Q. Did you say anything about the powers of the police being
superior to the powers of the marshals? A. No, sir; I did not.
QA And that in case there was any trouble the police were to
understand they were to be obeyed, and not the marshals? A.
No, sir; I did not.
Q. Nothing like that in substance? A. No, sir.
Q. lDd you say to the police that if they saw fit to arrest the
marshal they must bring him in, if it took the whole squad? A.
No, sir; I did not.
Q. Or anything like that? A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Did you say the United States marshals were selected from
a class of men who would be likely to interfere with the prerogatives of voters, or anything of that sort? A. I did not.
Q. That they would be likely to create trouble and disturbance?
[L I did not 




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Q. And if any move was made by the United States marshals
to interfere with the Tammany voters the United States marshals shall be immediately arrested and brought in? A. No, sir.
Q. Nothing of the kind in substance? A. No, sir; nothing of
the kind.
Q. You say all you did was to say to the police captains in
regard to the marshals was that if they committed any disorder
that they should be arrested as any other citizen? A. That is
what I said.
Q. Did you define to them what disorder on the part of the
marshals would be? A. No sir; I generalized it, as I say.
Q. Did any of these captains or inspectors ask you any questions about that? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to them that the marshals must not be allowed
to interfere with the policemen? A. I did not.
Q. And that if any marshal attempted to interfere with the
policemen the marshal should be arrested? A. I did not.
Q. Or anything like that? A. No, sir.
Q. Did that close the interview when you got through? A. No,
sir: the superintendent spoke then.
Q. What did he say? A. The superintendent said he disagreed
with me.
Q. About what? A. As to the interference by marshals and
the arrest by police officers of the mashals.
Q. Did he explain the point? A. He made some explanation
about it; he said he thonuht the Tnited States marshals on the
day of election had great authority.
Q. Yes; what else? A. And the police should be very careful
about interfering with them in any way, and advised them not
to do it; that was the substance of what he said.
Q. What did you say to that? A. Nothing; not a word.
Q. Did he, in substance, instruct the policemen to obey the
law as he gave it to them, rather than as you gave it to them?
A. He advised them not to interfere with the marshals after I
had spoken.
Q. Did he use your name in his remarks to the policemen? A.
He may have said he disagreed with the president of the board;
I do not recollect whether he did or not.
Q. Didn't he positively instruct the policemen to follow the law
as he gave it to them rather than as you gave it to them? A.
To that extent; yes, sir.
Q. Didn't he remind them that he was the superintendent of
police until at least after election day? A. No, sir; I don't
think he did; I am sure he did not.
Q. Will you swear he did not say to those men, "You must




521


oiey my orders in this matter in preference to the president?t 
A. No, sir; he did not.
Q. Nothing like that? A. No, sir; he advised them as I told you.
Q. How many captains did you send for between that Sunday
interview and the following election day? A. Not one.
Q. Not one? A. No, sir.
Q. How many captains did you interview between those dates?
A. Not one.
Q. Do you mean to say that you did not talk with any of the
captains between Sunday and election day? A. I don't think
I did; I don't recollect particularly; I don't think I did; there
was only one day in between, Monday; my recollection is that
I did not see a captain; I saw some captains at that meeting, of
course.
Q. Did you talk with them after the formal meeting was closed?
A. No, sir; I went away within a few moments.
Q. Immediately after Mr. Byrnes got through talking?  A.
Not immediately; I staid around for a while probably, a short
time.
Q. You made no answer to his remarks? A. No, sir; I did not;
he was superintendent, and he was giving the orders.. Q. What business did you have to interfere with the orders he
had given? A. I did not attempt to interfere.
Q. You gave a construction of the law different to his? A.
Yes; and I think my construction was right now.
Q. Is he your superior officer? A. No, sir; he is not; he is the
superintendent of police.
Q. Why didn't you remind the man that you were superior to
the superintendent? A. I had no desire to have any conflict
whatever; I gave my opinion in good faith, and he disagreed
wihI me, as I believe, in good faith, and I let it stand there
Q. How many men have you promoted to be captains? A. I
think three.
Q. Those three I have named? W. Yes, sir.
Q. Did it ever come to your ears that it was charged those men
paid for their promotions? A. These particular men?
Q. Yes? A. No, sir, I never heard of it
Q. What men have been charged with paying for it? A. There
have been statements occasionally in newspapers in some of the
articles; I think you have been referring to, in the World, that
some payments had been made by captains?nd other people
for appointments; I never heard anybody charge that any of ay
appointments were paid for.
0 These dtatements have hgaen confined to the World? AL
Pretty generally, I think; yes, sir.
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522
Q. They have been made in the Evening Po3t, In the Heral4,
tnd the Mail and Express and in other papers, haven't they?
A, Well, they may have been.
Q. Hasn't it come to your notice that they have been? A.
-No, sir; it has not.
Q. You say you never heard it charged that any of your
Appointments' were paid for? A. No, sir; I never did.
Q. Well, as matter of fact, did you ever receive any pay for
them? A. I want to say to the committee that I have never
deceived a penny directly or indirectly for any appointment
that I have ever voted for in the board of police.
Q. Or any promotion or transfer? A. Or any promotion, or
any recommendation that I have ever made; I want to say that
in the most positive manner possible.
Q. You have the opportunity and cheerfully; can you say
the same thing for your brother, Barney Martin? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He is also a district leader? A. I believe that I can say
that for him; yes, sir.                   X
Q. He'is a Tanmmany Hall district leader? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And has to do with appointments and promotions, and
transfers? A. Yes, sir; he recommends them occasionally.
Q. He recommends a great many, don't he? A. Occasionally;
yes, sir; not a great many, I don't say.
Q. Doesn't his name figure rather more so than anybody else?
A. I don't think so; no, sir.
Q. Wont you look that over to-night and see? A. I admit
he has recommended a great many to me for appointment
Q. I would like you to tell the committee whether it is not
true that the recommendations made by your brother are more
frequent? A. I shall tell the exact number of recommendations
he made on which appointments were made.
Q. Can you do that now? A. No, sir; I can not, but will tell
you.
Q. Will you tell whether his recommendations are more frequent than that of any other single individual? A. Well, the
investigation will show that.
Q. Exactly; you can tell that to-morrow; did you ever hear
it charged that your brother received any money for these
appointments? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know Sergeant Foody? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where is he stationed? A. Sergeant Foody is, I thinli, in
the fifteenth precinct.
Q. Is that the Jefferson Market court? A. No; he used to
be in the fifteenth precinct, and has been transferred to take
charge of the Jefferson Market court
W MWas that done at your brother's request? A. Yes, sir.




523
I. Be Is a resident o yonu brothers political precinct? AIeI was, at that time; I don't know whether he resides there
or not; he was doing duty in the fifteenth precinct, which formed
part of that district.
Q. He was a shining light in your brothe's club? A. I don't
know that.
Q. Do you know anybody that belongs to your brothers club?
A;. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know any policeman that belongs to it? A. No, sir;
I do not.
Q. You can not say whether Sergeant Foody was one of his
prominent men there? A. I can not say.
Q. Did you ever hear it charged that Sergeant Foody is a
go-between for your brother? A. No, sir; I never heard of it
Q. Do you know, as a fact, that while Sergeant Foody was
in the fifteenth precinct, no complaint was sustained or permitted against any member of the police force, who is also a
member of your brother's club? A. No, sir; I don't know the
first thing about that. 
Q. You remember the fact that Mr. Walter W. Bahan filed some
papers for independent nomination for the Assembly last fall?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You familiarized yourself with the statutes on the subject
of nomination? A. Yes, sir; I thought I did.
Q. And you learned from the statutes that unless objections
were filed within three days after the original papers were filed,
it was the duty of the commissioners to print the ticket? A. Yes
sir.
Q. And Mr. Bahan's certificates were filed on the 21st day of
October? A. They were; yes, sir.
Q. And you received some objections on the 26th of October?
A. We received some objections on the 24th of October.
Q. Were they sworn to? A. No, sir; they were not, as I recollect it.
Q. They were sworn to on the 25th and 26th, were they not?
A. There were additional objections filed on the 26th.
Q. They consisted of affidavits, didn't they? A. They consisted, as I recollect it, of a statement of the objections, and affidavits accompanying them.
Q. And the affidavits were sworn to on the 25th and 26th of
October, were they not? A I think they were; yes, sir.
Q. And all there was that was filed was contained in those affidavits? A. There was a statement accompanied them in writing,
as I recollect it.
Q. You know we had the clerk to produce those papers, and:




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524
he produced nothing but affidavits? A. I recollect reading testfrony on that subject, and my recollection is at the meeting of
the board of police on the 24th-just previous to the meeting
of the board of police on the 24th-that was three days after
the filing of certificates-that objections were brought there
tby Assistant District Attorney McIntyre, and I think Mr. Boyle
'was with him; Mr. Boyle, of that Assembly district; and that
they said they had those objections, and that they would present
further affidavits and objections a few days later, if they were
given an opportunity.
Q. Did they file any with you on the 24th?  A. They left a
papjer with me on the 24th.
Q. Didn't they come there and state they wanted time in order
to prepare papers for filing? A. They said if they had time, they
could prepare many affidavits and objections.
Q. You say they actually did file something on the 24th? A.
They eft something with me on the 24th.
Q. Will you produce that paper to-morrow? A. Those records
have been taken from our office; the matter was in court here
immediately after this; the certificate required, and I can not say
what has become of it; I have not seen it since that time.
Q. You know your clerk was subpoenaed to bring the papers
here? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he brought nothing but the affidavits? A. Yes, sir;
and he told me those papers were not at the polioe department,
and he hadn't seen them from the time they were taken to the
court
Q. And there was no file mark on the affidavits? A. The
probability is the file marks were on the outside of these papers;
they may have got detached in some way.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. The balance must be in the county clerk's office? A. I
suppose what was there must be filed with the county clerk;
there was no reason for anything of that kind - for a police board
to throw out a certificate unjustly, or illegally, of a person.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Was there any reason for receiving those protests after the
statutory time had elapsed? A. No, sir.
Q. Why did they receive them? A. I think they had a right
to take what they left there.
Q. You mean to tell the committee there was something filed
there within the three days? A. I think there was a statement




525


left with me on the 24ti; the certtiicate was laid over on the 24th
to the 26th, and these people came on the 26th, and came there
and made objections.
Q. Did the clerk of the board know anything about the filing
of this paper? A. I don't know that he did.
Q. Do you know the statute says that objections must be
filed with the clerk? A  I don't think it does; I think the statute
says that objections in writing must be filed within three days;
I don't think it says w;ith the clerk.
Q. It says with the officers where the other papers were filed,
don't it? A. I don't think so; maybe so.
Q. Do you remember reading the testimony of Mr. Bahan, that
in company with another gentleman he went to the clerk's Office
on the third and fourth days after his certificate was filed to see
if any objections were filed? A. Yes.
Q. And, on -each occasion, he was informed none had been
filed? A. Yes, sir; I saw that
Q. And you know the statute said that unless a written objeo.
tion thereto should be filed in the office in which the certificateBy Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What page and section are you reading? A  Section 49,
page 36.
Q. You knew the statute read that unless written objections
thereto shall be filed in the office in which the certificate is filed
within three days after the filing of the certificate, then the nomination should go on the printed ticket? A. That was not my
undemtanding of it.
Q. Look at it and see if I read it correctly? A. I understand
you read it correctly.
Mr. Nicoll.-Now turn to section 44.
Mr. Sutherland.- I beg your pardon; I am examining the
witness.
Mr. Nicoll.- I know, but you can notMr. Sutherland.- Yes, I can.
Mr. Nicoll.-You can not put him in a position without calling
his attention to section 44, where it says, the certificate shall be
filed in the )ffice of the board of police commissioners.
Mr. Sutherland.- Exactly.
Mr. Nicoll.- It does not say it shall be filed in the office of the
clerk. "It shall be filed in the office of the board of police com,
missioners."
Q. You have read this section 49? A: Yes, sir.
Q. Who is the clerk of the board of police commisaionem? KN
William H. Kipp.




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Q. Who indorsed the nomination? A. William I. Kipp, I
Wnk, or some of his employes.
Q. Now, was there any clerk specially detailed to take charge
-f these election papers? A. I don't know that, sir.
Q. Do you know that William Delamater had personal charge
of the;m? A. I think he had a great deal to do with them.
Q. Didn't he have personal charge of the papers? A. My
recollection is, the clerk said he had charge of them himself.
Q. It was either Mr. Kipp or Mr. Delamater had charge ot
them? A. Either one of the two.
Q. And if any papers were filed with either of these gentlemen there were no papers on file in the office? A. I think they
had a right to file them with me.
Q. Did you cary them around in your office? A. No, sir; I
left them in the president's room, or sent them to the clerk's
office; I don't know which.
Q. You mean to say you don't know what was done with a
paper of that sort that was given you? A. I can not recollect
It now; no, sir.
Q. What was your duty in regard to that paper? A To pre,
sent it to the board of police.
Q. Was the board of police in session when the paper was
given to you? A. No; I don't think the board was in session.
Q. What was your duty in regard to the disposition of the
papers? A, I think it should find its way to the board and to
the clerk's office; I think it ought to go to the clerk's office.
Q. Did the paper go to the clerk's office? A. I don't know; I
oan not answer that.
Q. You don't think the clerk would lie to Mr. Bahan? A. No,
air; I do not
Q. And if the clerk informed him that there were no papers on
file, he was telling the truth, wasn't he? A. I think so.
Q. That was the truth, wasn't it? A. I don't know that.
Q. What instruction did you give Captain Doherty in regard
to Mr. Kempner's contest? A. I gave him no instructions.
Q. Did you know the policemen were going around through the
precinct taking down Kempner's pictures? A. I did not know,
until Superintendent Byrnes told me there Was some complaints
on that subject.
Q. And you never gave him any authority on that subject?
A. I never did.
Q. After Mr. Maynard's defeat, was there a large increase in
the number of arrests under the Excise Laws?
Mr. Nicoll.- After what?
Mr. Sutherland. — After the defeat of Maynard. Do you know.
Maynard,




527


Mr. Nlcoll.- I know he was defeated.
The Witne. —  I suppose he had a good deal to do with the
Excise Law.
Q.Answer that question. A. I can not answer that question;
I think the arrests for violation of Excise Law had inci eased in
the last few months
Q. Was it not increased —up to election time the arrests
were about 50 each Sunday, for violation of the Excise Law? A.
I can not answer that.
Q. It is not true, after Maynard was defeated, and it was
found that the liquor dealers did not vote for him as generally as
was expected, that the arrests increased to about 150 each Sunday? A. I can not answer that, sir.
Q. Can you tell whether there wds an increase after that eleo
tion? A. I think there was an increase; yes, sir; I can not tell
just when it commenced.
Q. Mr. Martin, how many gambling-houses are there in the
city of New York? A. I can not answer that, sir.
0. Well, your office has a record of them? A. If it has; yes.
Q. The rules require that the records be kept? A. Yea, sir.
Q. Can you give us any idea of the number? A. No, sir; I
can not.
Q. Can you tell us anybody that can? A. The superintendent
of police.
Q. Anybody else? A. I suppose I can obtain the record for
you, and will be glad to do it.
Q. Have you ever examined it? A. No, sir; I never have.
Q. Never had any curiosity on that subject? V. No, sir.
Q. How many houses of prostitution are there in the city? S.
I can not answer that, either.
Q. And the record of their number is in the office of the superintendent? A. I suppose it Is.
Q. The rules require such a record to be kept? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, as you understand it, the police captains m,-ke report
on that subject, don't they? A. I understand that they do;
yes, sir.
Q. And the inspectors: how often are those reports tiade? 'A,
I think they have monthly and weekly reports.
Q. Both captains and inspectors? A. I think so;,yes, sir.
Q. Are you equally unable to tell how many policy shops there
are?  A. T am equally unable tV tell.
Q. In regard to the various disorderly houses then? A- Ye,
sir; l can not telL




528


Q. And during all tne year yo ta<I hawt   becr p1olie conmm*
aioner, you never have examined the record to see how many
there are, or where they are located? A. No, sir; I have not.
Q. There were constant complaints about those places? A.
Yes, sir; I have heard some complaints.
Q. And your attention has been turned to them very especially
by Parkhurst and his society? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And hasn't that led you to go to these records to see what
houses were put down as'disorderly in this category? A. No,
sir; I have not.
Q. Have you ever asked the superintendent tc bring this
record before the board? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever suggested any measure to the board of
police commissioners for the suppression of these houses? A.
No, sir; I have not.
Q. Has any member of the present board of police commissioners suggested any new regulation or measure for the suppression of these houses? A. No, sir; I don't think any member
of the board has brought any suggestion before the board on
that subject
Q. Has the subject of the suppression or diminution of these
disorderly houses been a matter of discussion before the board
of police? A. No, sir.
Q. What do you meet for? A. For the transaction of official
business connected with the board.
Q. What official business?  A. Matters affecting the government of the force as charged in the statute; and also matters
connected with the discipline of the force, as charged in the
statute.
Q. The statutes make the board of police commissioners in
snpreme command of the police force in the city of New York, do
they not? A. We are in command; yes, sir.
Q. Supreme command; there is nobody who has power to overrule you, is there? A. No; I suppose not.
Q. Neither the superintendent or the mayor or anybody else?
'A. No, sir.
Q. And you are required to adopt regulations covering the
conduct of these police officials, are you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And from time to time you have adopted such regulations?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you amend them from time to time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So much so, that when I applied for a copy of the present
regulations, it was difficult for me tc get it, because the new
one is now in the hands of the printer? A. Yes, sir; we are
having a number of them printed now.




529(
Q. And those amendments come from time to time, according
as the necessities of the force demonstrate to the commission
ers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The need of somethings in the regulations? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was this last edition of regulations printed? A
I don't know; it would show there on the title page.
Q. In 1891, is it? A. In 1891; yes, sir.
Q. And there are any number of amendments to those regulations pasted in on slips, are there not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. A large number of them? A. Not a very great number.
Q. Fifty or 75? A. I harly think that many; I should not
think there were that many.
Q. Somewhere from 30 to 50? A. Well, yes; I will say a couple
of dozen, I suppose. 
Q. Now, what amendments, if any, have been introduced in
the regulations of the department looking to the greatet efficiency
of the force in suppressing these disorderly houses? A. I don't
think there have been any amendments introduced; C think
the rules are pretty complete on that subject.
Q. Do you mean to say it is impossible to increase the efficiency;
of the force in that direction? A. Well, it might be increased.
Q. How? A. I think the action of the board recently in
making some convictions of captains will have that effect
Q. Well, I understand you, that some of these captains are
innocent men? A. I said, in one case, there was some doubt
about it.                       '
Q. How else can the efficiency of the force be increased than
by occasionally convicting a captain on insufficient evidence?
A. I don't know that I can answer that.
Q. ommissioner, can you advise this committee with regard
to any manner, any -method, by which the efficiency of the police
force of the city of New York can be increased?
Mr. Nicoll.-I object When I undertook to- examine Mr.
Otto Kempner on that subject, at the very outset of the investigation, the counsel objected, and the chairman sustained his
objection with a statement that they did not propose to take
opinions of witnesses, as to the different methods of increasing
the efficiency of the police force or improving its administration;
and that I understood to have been the rule laid down by the
conmittee at that time.   I was about cross-examining Mr.
Kempner upon the question as to whether he thought a singlehanded commission or a bi-partisan commission, or a commission
oomposed of all one political complexion, was the most efficient
method of governing the police force; and you recollect, Mr.
Chaira, tharb you sustained Mr. Sutherland's objection, and
XL.      67




630


forbid fliat line of investigation. Now, h'e asEs the same ques.
tiion of Mr. Martin; he asks him, I suppose, whether he thinks
-a bi-partisan police or a single-headed commission, or a commission consisting as it now is, of two Democrats of the regular
organization, one independent, and one Republican, as the most
efficient means.
Senator Bradley.-He has not got there yet.
I  Mr. Sutherland.-Nob at all.
Mr. Nicoll.-He is on that line. I am opening up to illustrate
my objection, and, on that ground, I think the committee ought
to sustain it. 
Chairman Lexow.-There are two reasons why this evidence,
now, is competent.  First, for the purpose of ascertaining
whether the president of the board of police is attending to
his duties sufficiently to come to a conclusion as to whether or
not there are sore spots here or there in the police department
in the city that in his judgment might be prevented by other
additional legislation or by some other method, and it is for
us to ascertain what legislation is necessary for that purpose.
In the second place, while a question in reference to disease
would be absolutely improper to a layman, a question in reference t that disease would be proper with a physician; we have the 
president of the board of police on the stand now, who ought to
be, or should be considered an expert on matters of this kind;
Mr. Kempner was an ordinary layman, who, I do not suppose,
had any more knowledge about this matter than any other layman would have; on those two grounds his testimony is entirely
different from that that could be adduced from Mr. Kempner, and
would be competent in this witness, and would not with him.
Mr. Nicoll.-On the last ground on which the chairman has
allowed the question, has the chairman forgot I questioned Mr.
Kempner as an expert and proved from his own lips that he was
-a profound student of all matters relating to municipal administration, and had devoted years of his life to the study of these
questions; Mr. Kempner very readily admitted it, and qualified
himself as an expert within all the rules.
Chairman Lexow.- No, it did not so appear to the committee
at the time; and in addition to that, he would be a theoretical
one, and this witness would be a practical one; the question, is
this: the question has been put to this witness whether, under
certain circumstances which appear in evidence here, he did not
think it his duty to look into the subject, to consider methods
to get rid of obvious imperfections and obvious inefficiency in the
police force; it seems proper under the circumstances to continue
that line of examination for the purpose of letting this con



531


mittee ascertain the competency of the head of the department,
and any suggestion he could make for the purpose of bettering
the force?
Mr. Sutherland.- This question leads up to another one, which
I regard as one of importance.
Mr. Nicoll.-I want to call your honor's attention to the language in which you ruled upon my question in regard to Mr.
Kempner; I said, " As I understand the purpose of this committee
is to collect information for the purpose of framing some law in
relation to the government of the department, we have before
us a gentleman, very active in New York politics, who has been
himself a legislator, and, being a candidate, on several occasions,
has written on municipal administration, and given a great deal
of time and attention to the subject, and has had personal experience; would it not enlighten the committee greatly to have his
view?;
Senator O'Connor.-It has not been ruled out
The Chairman (after some consideration with the other member of the committee.)-" The judgment of the majority of this
committee is, that we want facts; we do not want the opinion of
witnesses."
Chairman Lexow.. —Of a witness of that kind who has no intimate knowledge on the subject under discussion, except it be possibly a vague one.
Senator Bradley. —You did not qualify that; there is no qualification in that;
Chairman Lexow.-There was no reason for that qualification
there.
Senator Bradley.-I think your point is right.
Senator Cantor. —The chairman is overruled.
Mr. Nicoll.- It is only fair to the chairman that I should go on
and state something; I then made some remarks which I wont
read again, upon which Senator Cantor contributed some light oia
the subject, and then the chairman said: "At this time the testimony will be excluded; if afterward, on consultation of the coinmittee, they desire to admit it, we, will admit it;" that was about
all,
Chairman Lexow. —That contains a qualification; and in addition to that, the testimony is entirely different. The witness
here has already testified that in his judgment the membership
of policemen in political clubs tended to impair the efficiency
of the force. Now, the question is, whether, in the judgment 3f
this witness, there was anything else that tended to impair the
efficiency or increase the efficiency of the forcm
Senator Cantor. —That is your opinion, and the majority of
the committee is against you, Mr. Chairman




532


Mr. Sutherland.- Does the committee desire to hear any suggestions of those who are in command of the police of the city
of New York?
Chairman Lexow.-Not until after the committee have decided this matter. The chairman insists on his ruling, subject
to a reversal by a balance of the committee. If the rest overrule the chair, it is excluded.
Senator Bradley. —Of course, you can ask him if he can riake
any suggestions. 
Chairman Lexow.-I suggest to Senator Bradley not to lay
down the rules of evidence. That should be done by the
chairman.                    I.Mr. Nicoll. —May I be permitted to ask the counsel whether
or not his question relates to legislItion on the administering of
affairs by a different commission than now?
Mr. Sutherland. —It has no relation to the bipartisan bill
in the slightest degree. 
Senator Cantor.-I supposed it was in relation to that bill.
Mr. Nicoll.-I thought that was the line of examination.
Chairman Lexow. ---If counsel insists on his objection —
'Pnator Cantor.-If that is the,question, the committee Is
with the chairman.
Mr. Nicoll.- If that is a fact, I will withdraw my objection.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. I want to know if you can tell how the efficiency of the
New York police force can be increased? A. No, sir; I can not.
*      Q. 1  ant you to advise the committee whether there is any
sort of regulation or statute, or common law, which could be
put into effect which would increase the efficiency of the police
force in New York city? A. No, sir; I can not.
Q. Can not you advise the committee of some way in whick
you can get better detectives? A. No, IQ. The Legislature is anxious to give you relief on that subject? A. I think there is power enough in the police departiment to get better detectives.
Q. Where? A. With the captains and superintendent
Q. How shall they be put in motion?
Mr. Nicoll. —What you want to do is to increase the salaries,
and then more expert men will be obtained.
Mr. Sutherland.- We will put you on the stand by and by,
Mr. Nicoll.
The Witness.-That probably would have a good effect




533 
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Mr. President, do you believe there is another detective
force superior in the world, or equal in the world, to the New
York detective force? A. I don't think there is another in the
world superior to it, or superior to it as a force, as it is at
present -.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You do not think it is possible to increase the efficiency
of the force? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or your ward detectives? A. There might be found some
better men here and there, I think, for that purpose; generally,
I think, they are good men.
'Q. Your opinion is that the average of the ward detective
police is of a high character? A. So far as I know; I have not
met them personally; they seem to be all right; we have had no
complaints except in a few instances.
Q. And you can not suggest any means of increasing the efficiency of that force? A. No, sir; I suppose more scrutiny on
the part of the captains, and superintendent, and board of police.
Q. Can you suggest how that scrutiny can be increased? A.
By giving it more scrutiny, I suppose.
Q. Do you think that the powers of the police captains ought
to be increased? A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. Do you think their duties should be enlarged in any direction? A. No; if anything, their duties might be lessened; that
is, I mean to say, their districts ought to be lessened.
Q. Make a greater number of districts? A. A greater number of districts, and a greater number of captains.
Q. Do you t(link the powers of the inspectors should be
enlarged or increased or varied in any way? A. I think the
inspectors should-I think it would be a good thing if the
inspectors should try the breaches of discipline in place of the
police board.
Q. Act as a trial court? A. Yes, sir; on the trial of the
lesser violations of the rules.
Q.' Do you think another change should be made in their
powers? A. I do not remember any other change that I could
recommend at this time.
Q. Do you think there should be any change in the powers, or
limitations of the powers of the superintendent? A. I think
the superintendent has full power under the rules of the board.
Q. Full power to do what? A. Over the entire force.




534
Q. Yon do not think there should be any change, then, In
regard to the office of superintendent?
Mr. Nicoll.- I thought you were not going to inquire into the
pending legislation?
Mr. Sutherland —I am not talking about the bi-partisan bill
Mr. Nicoll.-It is a compromise bill, by which you give additional powers to the superintendent, and appoint two commis.
sioners for each political party; now, is not that the legislation
that is pending, or am I misinformed about that?
Chairman Lexow.-Yes; that is pending. 
Mr. Nicoll.- I do not know exactly the details of it.
Senator Cantor. —That is in the bill.
Mr. Sutherland.-Isn't it proper to give the judgment of this
man?
Senator Cantor.-Not exactly, because the bill provides for
legislating this man out of office; it legislates this present board
out of office.
Chairman Lexow. —I do not think it would be fair to put to
this witness any questions on pending legislation matter, in
which he is not intimately connected.
Mr. SutherlaLd. —I was not aware it would legislate him out
of office.
Chairman Lexow.-Yes; certainly.
Mr. Sutherland.-I wont press the question if that is the
situation.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. I would like to ask a question; Mr. Commissioner, in your
answers, you have laid the blame to some extents at least, if not
entirely, upon the neglect of police captains and others to familiarize themselves with circumstances affecting the police system
under their charge; do you consider that the police commissioners
have no duty devolving upon them, to look after matters of that
kind themlselves? A. No; the law devolves a duty of suppressing
and preventing violations of law on the uniformed force of the
department                                  -,
Q. But isn't it your opinion, that you, as police commissioners,
have the duty of looking after and seeing to the suppression
of vice and crime by your subordinates? A. Yes; I believe
it is our duty.                          '^ 
Q. When yoa then have spoken of neglect of duty on thepart of the captains, was it not also your neglect of duty im
not seeing that the captains performed their duty? A. No, sir;
I do not think the law impresses upon the board of police conrn




535


missioners the necessity of personally making examination of
those matters. 
Q. Then your opinion is that your duty is confined to receiving
complaints and charges and disposing of them after being made?
A. Yes; I think so.
Q. And not to take any initiative on your part to ascertain
whether there were reasons for charges? A. Well, if we think
that the captains, or the inspectors, or the superintendents, are
not doing their duty we have a right to prefer charges against
them ourselves.
Q. Do you? A No, sir; we have not
Q. You never have? A. We have in one case receetly; yes; in
one case recently.. `
TENTH MEETIG.
New York, April 7, 191.
Present.-Senators Lexow, Saxton, Bradley and Cantor.
Herman H. Hansen; being called as a witness, duly sworn and
examined by Mr. Sutherland, testified as follows:.Q. Where do you reside? A. No. 160 East Fifty-ninth street
Q. What is your business? A. Stenographer.
Q. Were you a Republican watcher at the last election?  A.
Xes, sir.
Q. Where stationed? A. No. 38 Division street
Q. What election district is that? A. Third election district
and First Assembly, I think.
Q. In your capacity as watcher, tell us what you saw of the
conduct of the police? A. Well, from what I saw, there were a
good many irregularities, and the police made no arrests during
the day, to my knowledge.
Q. Were the police requested to make any arrests? A. Yes,
sir, I believe in one instance, when one of the poll clerks challenged a man who had been sworn in.
Q. Challenged him on what ground? A. On the ground that
he voted before; he was very positive that he had, and I believe
he called for his arrest, but no arrest was made, and he was
allowed to go.
Q. Was there any reason given for allowing him to go? A. I
believe not.
Q. What other irregularities did you observe? A. Well, there
were people who voted before, and who came in the second and
third time to vote, and they were told to go out
Q. What did you do about it? A. They were challenged, of
course, and told to go out,




1536
Q. By whom? A. By myself, and sometimes by the Republican
inspector.
Q. Then what? A. Then he went out, and in some instances
he returned, and, of course, was expelled.
Q. Expelled by whom? A. By the inspector.
Q. Did the police take any part in this? A. None whatever,
that I could see.
Q. And even the man he was directed to arrest was not
arrested. A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know the name of that policeman? A. No, sir, I do
not
Q. Or his number? A. I am not certain, I think I made a report
to the Republican Club, and I may have written the number in
that report.
rf  S   Q. But you do not recall it now? A. I have forgotten it now.
Q. Were you permitted to occupy the station within the rail?
A. No, sir; I was not, in the morning.
Q. Who prevented it? A. Well, the inspector, that is, the
chairman, and on appealing to the police, I did not seem to receive
any assistance whatever.
Q. Did you appeal to the policeman? A. I did.
Q. What did you say to him or them? A. nimply said that I
insisted on my rights to go inside this railing.
Q. Did you show your certificate? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Certificate signed by the chairman and secretary of the
county committee? A. I believe the certificate was signed in the
regular way; it was given me by the Republican Club.
Q. The ordinary printed certificate? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Anybody make any objection to its regularity? A. No, sir.
Q. You showed that, and what reply did you get? A. That
it was all right, and that I could watch, but on my insisting onx
looking inside the railing, I was told to get out.
Q. Who told you to get out? A. The chairman.
Q. To get out of where? A. To get outside of the railing.
Q. Were you then inside the railing? A. I was then inside,.
and made a vigorous protest against it, but to avoid any further
trouble, I went out, and it was only during the afternoon I
went In.
Q. Waas a policeman there, when you were ordered outside
the rail? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You appealed to him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say or do? A. He said, "I think you better
go outside the railing anyway, to avoid any trouble."
Q. Anything else? A. I believe that is all
I.                                           - *






537
Cross-examined by Mr. Nicoll:,Q. Did you make any complaint to the captain? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To the inspector of the district? A. To the inspector of
the district?
Q. The police inspeeor of the district? A. I don't believe
there is any there.
Q. Did you make any complaint to the board of police? A.
No, sir. 
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Did I understand you to say that the policeman told you
you had better get out of the polling place itself? A. No, sir;
outside of the railing.
Adolph- Freund, called as a witness by Mr. Sutherland, being
duly sworn and examined, testified as follows:
Q. Where do you live?   A. Two hundred and forty-eight
Stanton street..
Q. Where did you vote last fall, 1893? A. In 140 Forsythe
street
Q. What Assembly district is that? A. Third Assembly district
Q. And nineteenth election district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time of the day did you go to the polls? A. Between
12 and 1.
Q. What occurred after you got there? A. They told me when
I went there in the polling-room; the election inspector told
me I could not vote; I had voted already, and I told him; I
asked him how that was, because I was able to prove that I
did not vote, and he told me it was no use talking; 1 had voted
already; I asked him if he would let me swear in my vote,
and he refused, and the policeman that was in the pollroomn
told us to get out, and I opened the door to get out, and the
policeman gave me a kick with his foot to go out quick, and,
on the street I met two friends of mine, who came from the
city I came from, and they told me not to bother myself with
voting; it was all humbug, they told me.
Q. Where did you go from there, after the policeman kicked
you out? A. I went to the station-house at Eldridge street,
aed I told the man there behind the bar how it was; I told
him the whole story; and he told me he could not do anything
for me; I could not vote; and when I went to walk out from the
station-ho-use, he called me back.
Q. Who, the man sitting behind the desk? A. Yes, sir; and
asked me, "For whom were you going to vote?" I told him
L.       68




f
Ii
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i
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538


I had nothing to do with the police, and I was never arrested,
and it made me afraid, and, therefore, I told him Tammany
Hall, because I thought I would be locked up over night, or
something like that, and I did not like to get in trouble.
Q. What did he say? A. He called out a detective with a
black mustache, big, stout fellow, and told me to go with him
to the pollroom, and that I should get my vote in all right
Q. What happened then? A. He talked with the captain in
my district.
Q. You mean the Tammany captain? A. Yes, sir; and after
the talking, turned around to me, and told me, "You could not
vote, you voted already;" and I was so excited I went down
to the "World" office and I told it there in the office, the
whole story, and he sent a reporter with me to the Superior
floor, I think it is, the evening editor, and there I told him the
whole story, and he sent a reporter with me to the Superior
Court, and I got a mandamus from Justice Andrews.
Q. And you went back and voted? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know who the policeman was? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you get his number? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know the name of the man behind the desk at the
Eldridge street station? A. No, sir; I was too excited; I did
not look for no number or anything at all; I was afraid of getting
locked up, and I could prove it that I was not out of the house
on election day before.
Q. Were you out of your house election day before you went
there to vote? A. No, sir.
Q. And you had not voted before that day? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know who it was voted on your name? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you acquainted with any of these inspectors? A.
No, sir.
Q. How long had you lived in that district? A. Seven months
before election; I lived seven months.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Are you a member of the Tammany Hall organization? A.
No, sir.
Q. Of what organization are you a member? A. None
Q. How long have you lived in the city of New York? AL
Over five years.
Q. Where did you come from? A. From Germany.
Q. When did you come from Germany? A. Over seven years
ago; I was in San Francisco about two years; the first two years
I was in California.
Q. What were you doing there? A. I worked there.




Q. At what? A. Cigars; I am a cgarmaker by trade.
Q. The making of cigars? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You came to this city five years ago, you say? A. Yes, idr.
Q. Have you been making cigars ever since? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who do you make cigars for? A. Sutro & Newmark.
Seventieth street and Sixth avenue.
Q. Is he a manufacturer of cigars? A. Yes, sir.
i Q. Are you a married man? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where do you live in the city of New York? A. At the
present time I live at 248 Stanton street.
Q. You have a room there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And at that time you were living where —t the time of
the last election you were living where? A. One hundred and
sixty-nine Eldridge street.
Q. Where did you vote on election day in 1892? A. During
the election of 1892 I lived in the same house I live now; I "ved
there the second time in 248 Stanton street.
Q. Where did you vote in the election of 1892? A. Furniture
store in Houston street.
Q. That was the polling place in the district in that year?,A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you vote in the same district in 1893 as you did in
i892? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What district did you vote in in 1893? A. Third Assembly
district.
Q. You were a stranger in that district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you not know any of the election officers-inspectors
or poll clerks or ballot clerks A. No, sire
Q. Or the police officers? A. No, sir.
Q. As I understand you to say, when you came forward to
vote, somebne objected that your name had been voted on? A.
Yes, sir; it was the election inspector, I think, who was behind
the bar.
Q. He noticed that a vote had already been cast upon your
name? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was the ground upon which he refused to let
you vote? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And thereupon you went down and saw the editor of the
World and accompanied by a reporter procured a mandamus and
did vote upon your name? A. Yes, sir; I asked the inspector
of election before I went away to let me swear in my vote, and
he refused that, and the policeman told me to get out of the
pollroom.
Senator Bradley. —He helped you out?
A. Yes, sir; he gave me a kick with his foot.




540


Q. What was the number of the police officer? A. I did not
look at the number.
Q. His name? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you seen him since? A. I have sjeen many policemen, although I don't know if I seen that policemen; maybe I
did and maybe not; would not swear to it.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. When you were stopped there, you said oanething about
some man offering you money? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Someone tried to buy your vote? A. Yes, sir; the story
was in the Evening World, and all the papers.
Q. Who was the man offered you money? A. I never saw
him before.
Q. How much did he offer? A. Two dollars; I told him I
would not sell my vote any more than I would my life.
Q. What party did he belong to; was he a Republican or a
Demoat. emcrat?. emocra.
Q. Are you sure he was a Democrat? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why? Because he offered me the Tammany paster.,
By Senator Lexoiw.
Q. Do yo'i know the name of the officer who was in the police
station behind what you call the bar? A. No, sir; I never
was in,
Q. Do you know whether he was a police sergeant? A. No,
sir; I could not swear whether it was the sergeant or captain;
I knew it was a stout man; I never in my life had anything to
do with the police.
Q. Did he have a police uniform on? A. He got some gold
stripes on his collar.
Q. How many gold stripes? A. Two gold stripes
Q. Around his collar? A. Yes, sir.
By Senator Saxton:
Q. I suppose you had registered before you voted? i. Yes, sr.
Q. On what day did you go there to register? A. On the
18th, I think.
Q. Don't remember which registry day it was? A. Before the
last two; second registry day.
Q. Were the same election officers there when you registered?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have any talk with them? A. No, sir.




541
Q. Simply had your name registered and went away? A.
Yes, sir.                 -                 - 
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Whose names were on the paster? A. The names were —
what I voted?
Q. The names on this Tammany paster? A. Sullivan and
Roesch were on; after I got the mandamus, the paper I voted
had the name of McGibney on.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Voted the straight Republican ticket? A. Yes, sir.
Joseph Gano, called as a witness by Mr. Sutherland, being
duly sworn and examined, testified as follows: 
Q. Where do you reside? A. Fifty Ninth avenue.
Q. What is your business? A. Truckman.
Q. How long have you resided there? A. Three years.
Q. How long have you been engaged in that business? AL
About 11 months, this month.
Q. In what Assembly district is that? A. The ninth.
Q. Is that the district in which Mr. Bahan received thie indo.
pendent nomination? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know Mr. Bahan? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you sign his papers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Anything happen to you after that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was it? A. I had a couple of gents come to me
and said, "Did you, know you were doing wrong when you
signed his paper?" I said, "I did not;" he said you did; you
better go up and sign Mr. Boyle's papers and take his indorsement off of that;" I said, "I will not;" about half an hour after
a policeman came up to me and said, "They want you around
to the station-hoeuse;" I said to him, "What do they want me
there for?" he said, "I don't know; you will have to come;"
I jumped on the truck and went with him, and went as far
as Eleventh street and Bleecker, and a man came up and sail,
"Hello, Tom! " to this policeman, who was on the truck with
me, and he went down and spoke to the man, and the poui^a.an
called me down and this man said to-the policeman, "That is
all right; I know this young man; go and tell him you could
not find him," and the policeman went off, and I went off with
this man on the truck, and as I got on the truck I went up
and got as far as Bleecker and Bank, and this man said, " Come
in and have a drink;" and I said, "Oh, I was obliged," and he
said, "Come in and have a cigar," and I said, "I will




)


542
have a cigar," and I    walked  in  and  had   one, and
came out, and he said, "You      know   Bahan  has   not
the power I have, that Tammany Hall has;" and
he, said, "You go and take your name off that;" "No," I said,
"I will do nothing of the kind," and I kind of thought then of
the trick they were trying to play on me, and that ended it,
and they did not bother me after that
Q. Did you see this same man afterward? A. Yes, sir; he
came down afterward, and said to me, "I understand you want
a licensed"             aQ. The same man who met the policeman? A- Yes, sir; he
came down afterward and said to me, "I understand you want
a license;" I said, "That is what I am looking for."
Q. License for what? A. License for a truck; and he said,
"You go up to Mr. Boyle and he will write you out a note for
a license;" and I went up and Mr. Boyle wrote a note for me to
go and get a license. 
Q. Who is Mr. Boyle? A. The Tammany Hall leader of the
Ninth Assembly district-James W. Boyle. 
Q Did he give you a note? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Addressed to whom? A. To some man down here, board
of excise; I believe I have that same note yet, and when I
went down, they said, "You can not get any license until
November 1st; that notice is no good;" when I got that note
Boyle said to me, "You better go over and sign ydur name to
that"
Q. To what? A. To his petition, and I was all mixed up,
and I went 
Q. What was the paper that Boyle had? A. Some paper
there, staling that you did not know what you were doing, or
something of that kind, I understood, after I signed it.
Q. In reg:ard to McDermott's and Bahan's canvass? A. Yea,
sir.'
Q. And this paper was in the interest of McDermott, and
against Bahan? A. Yes, sir.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You first signed for Bahan? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then Mr. Boyle undertook to get a license for you,
IA. Yes, sir. 
Q. And then you signed for McDermott? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You did not get your license? A. No, sir.,
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. De you know the name of the man who Jumped On the
truck? A. No, sir; I have been trying to find out since.
L --- —-— ~~~~~~-,~- c --- —-  --— ~~~~~~~~




Q.Stranger to you? A. Yesy, sir.
By Senator Bvadley:
Q. Do you know the policeman? A. N~o, sir.,
Q. Or his number? A. No, sir; I have been looking for tliq
past two days to see if I could find his number,_and could noi
llnd it.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You would know him agailn' if you saw him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is he still on the force; have you seen him Since that? A7
No, sir; I have not seen h  since that.
Walter C. Smith, called as a witness by Mr. Sutherland, being
duly sworn and examined, testified as follows: 
Q. What is your busi~ess? A. I am a clerk.
Q. For whom? A. T'he International Navigation (ziompany.
Q. Were you a watcher in the last election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. WVl~ere' stationed?  A. Fortieth  election  district and
Second Assembly district.
Q. You have your certificate with you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Produce it? (Witness produces a paper.);
-Mr. Sutherland (reading certificate) - "R-epublican counTy
commilttee, New York., a political party org~aizatio~n, which ha-L,
duly filed a certificate of the nomination of candidates for office
to be filed at the general election to be held on the 7th daty of
November, 1893, does, by virtue of the power giv m- to it by section
102, of chapter 680, of the Laws of 1892, appo!Lt Walter Smi-th
as watcher, to attend the polling place of -the fortieth election die.
frict, of the Second Assembly district of said cit~y and county,
during said election; 'in evidence whereof, the chairman and
secretary of said committee have sign'ed thid1 appointments the
3d day of November, 1893. (Signed, John HI. Smith, chairman;
* William H. Bellamy, secretary.')
Q.With that certificate in your pocket did you at-tend? A.
I[ did, sir.
Q. What time in the morning did you reach there? A. Wheu
* the polls opened.
Q.That was what time? A.. At 6 o'clock.
Q. Did you display your certificate? A. I did.
Q. To whom? A. The Republican Inspector.
Q. Did you meet with. any difficulty? A. Not until the Dem'aoratic watcher appeared, who contested my right there and told
the police officer to do his duty.




644


Q What did he say when he contested your right? A. Said I
had no right behind the rail, that he, as a watcher, has no right
behind the rail, and I, as a watcher, had no right
Q. What did he say to the policeman? A. i-e said to the
-oliceman to do his duty.
Q. Was that the expression he used? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then what? A. I did not wait for him to do his duty; I
went out; I went to Inspector Byrnes' office and had an interview with him, who.referred me to the captain at the Elizabeth
street station.
Q. What was his name? A. That I do not know.
Q. What did you do about it? A. I told him thatQ. Did you go to the captain? A. Yes, sir; and showed my
certificate.
Q. What time of the day was that? A. That was, I should
judge, about 7 or half-past; I exhibited this certificate and told
him that I wished to go behind the guard-rail, and read him an
extract of the law, and he said that it was a technicality, and I
had no right behind there, and he sent a man around to the election district with me, the polling place.
Q. Do you know who the man was? A. He was a policeman,
one of the reserves, I think.
Q. Did he tell him how to settle it? A. No, sir; he did not
tell him; he said I was in trouble around there and he should
settle it.
Q. The captain told you you had no right there, behind the
rail? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that in the hearing of this policeman that he sent
around? A. That I can not Sreear to.
Q. He told this man to go around with you and straighten this
matter up. What did you do then? A. I saw that the space behind
the guard-rail was rather small, and that they might raise the
objeetion that there would not be room enough for the voters
and election officers and watchers, and I could see the boxes from
behind the guard-rail as well, I did not insist on it any further,
and remained the other side of the gaurd-rail, outside, until the
count, when I went within.
Q. What did this policeman do, when you got there with him,
or say? A. ie spoke to the other policeman, the conversation I
don't remember, the substance of it was I agreed to stay outside
the guard-rail was rather small, and that they might raise the
Q. With whom did you make that agreement? A. With the
policemen, and the other Democratic watchers.
Q. The policemen stationed at the polls or the policemen who
went there with you? A. With really both.




45
Q. What did thiy sy that led up to tfl   agreement? A. 
don't remember that conversation.
Q. Did they request you to stay outside the guard-rail? A.
Yes, sir; they did.
Q. Did they say they would not allow you to go inside th1
guard-rail? A. They said I had no: right behind the guard-rail
Q. That was after this man came from the station? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Both policemen said you had no right there? A. Yes, sir,
Q. Did you request them to put you inside the guard-rail?
A. No; for the reason I have stated.
Q. They both informed you that you had no right there? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Finally you agreed with them that you would stay outsideT
A. Yes, sir; I did.
Q. You promised that you would? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then this other man went away? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see any irregularities there that day? A. Well,
I Saw one repeater, and there must have been more repeaters, on
acoount of the number of votes that were sworn in.
Q. You saw one repeater do what? A. Vote one name, and
the reason I remember it was that he had a peculiar face, and
he voted a Hebrew name.
Q. What kind of a face did he have? A. He was evidently an
Irishman.,                                  _
Q. What did you do about it? A. When this repeater entered
tihe polling place, some of the other men who were with this
Democratic watcher, they came into the polling place, and it
seemed to me that if I had challenged the vote or objected in any
way, that one of them would have struck me, and we would both
have been arrested, and for that reason I did not object; I
wanted to be present at the count
Q. What made you think that anybody would molest you? A
From the fact that they surged into the polling place.
Q. How many surged in? A. I should judge half a dozen.
Q. Did they come in to get ballots; come in to vote? A. No,
sir.
Q. Come in with this one voter? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did they do after he had voted? A. Mey dispersed
then, and went out
Q. Where was the policeman during this oceurrence? A. In
the polling place.
Q. Whee he could see these men surging in? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he attempt to stop them? ANo. sir.
L. 69




546,


~ ( ould lie see that they did not apply for ballots and did
trot vote? A. Yes, sir; he could.
Q He made no objection to their presence? A. No, sir.
rosErexanination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. I understand you to say that the Democratia watcher wa
kept outside the guard-rail? A. Yes, sir; he was outside.
Q. Did he remain out all day? A. Yes, sir; until the count
Mr. Sutherland.- The ground for that was that there was no
need of his being there; he did not have to watch anybody.
Q. At all events, he was not inside? A. No, sir.
Q. Could he see from where you were all that was going on
inside? A. Yes, sir.
Q' You stood up by the rail, so you could ee everything? A.
tWell, that was the reason I did not insist further.
Q. As mtatter of fact, the difference in your position from
one side of the rail to the other, would not have made a difference
of more than two feet, would it? A. I could have gone eight
feet away, six feet.
Q. You did not do that, you stood up close? A. Iiside the
guard-rail; I could have gone eight feet further toward the
Republican inspector.
Q. There was nothing to interfere with your sight, as to any:
Sing which was going on? A. No, sir.
By Senator Bradley: 
Q You say that this man who voted, voted on a Hebrew name?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were there all day? A. Yes, sir; I was there, except
about an hour when I took lunch.
Q. Did the Hebrew present himself that'day and offer to vote?
LAL-I can tell that by reference; I had a list of theQ. Did you see him come in and offer to vote, certainly it
would cause a little disturbance if he came to vote and the
inspector told him that he had voted before; that did not occur
all day? A. No, sir; the Hebrew did not come in.
Q. Did you see anyone during the day assist voters in the
booth? A. Yes, sir; there was an alleged blind man that was
assisted.
Q. Only one? A Yes; I remember one distinctly.
TI. M. Ieiss, called as a witness by Mr. Sutherland, being
worn and examined, testified as follows:
Q[  Where df you reside? A. Four hudred and fifty-four
lWwet Forty-seventh street.




..... *. ~-,:  -  I.....  ' t '. lo.
A7 
Q. What i your bininesis? A.. er4.For whom did you clerk? A Ster Brothes. 
Q. Were you a Republican watbher at tihe laS    elctI,-(
Et Yes, sir.
Q. Stationed where? A. Twentyeigth election distrit, TrlAssembly district.
Q. WWhereabouts was the pollingp ple? A- Three hundred and
something Broome street; I have forgotten te minber., 350
something.
Q. What time dd you go there in he morning? A. I gt
there about 8.
Q. Did you display your certificate? A. I did.
Q. To whom? A. To the offleer at first.
Q. That was the policee officer? A. The poliee officer.Q. To whom else did you display it? A. The chairman of Ifie,
commi1ttee of iinspectors.
Q. Did anybody question the regularity of the certificate?. At first they did not; admitting me inside the guard-rail, and
after about 25 minutes I was ordered out by the police officer.
Q. The aame police officer to whom you had shown this? A.
res, sir.
Q What did he say? A. He said I had no right to be inside;
I showed him the certificate, and called his attention to the,ruleS
and regulations of election, and he showed me one portion of
it which read to his idea, and I showed him the other, and he
said he can not help it, I must go out; and I did go out
Q. Did he give you any reason why he let you in in the first
place, and then ordered you out afterward? A. No, sir.
Q What was his unber? A. No, 2792, I believe.
Q. Did anybody else join in the conversation, when you were
ordered out? A. Quite a number, at least half a dozen
Q. Who were they? A. They were, I believe, Tanmany men,; I
ibelieve so.
Q. Were they election officers? A. I believe?'o; they wee.
Q. What officers? A. Two inspectors.
Q. Who else? A. The third inspector took my part, elaimingr 
I had a right to be inside.
Q. Who else took part in the conversation? A. Outsiders.
Q. How many outsiders? A. About half a dozen outsiders
Q. They were nob election officers at all? 'A No, sir.
Q. Where were they stmding?    A. Inside and outside the
guard-rail.                            *
Q. Inside? A. Inside; there were two constazntly, inside the
guard-rail.
Q. Two of those oucsiders? '. Yes, sir.
4. They joined in with the policeman ad insisted thXi yor
diould go out? A. Yes, sir.




Q What happened then? AL I went out and stayed out
about 10 minutes, and finally I thought I better go back and
stay outside, and see what was going on; I waited then until
about 2, when Mr.'Smith and Mr. Murray, of the Republican
headquarters, came around, and they got out of the carriage,
and) instructed the officer to allow me to remain inside; said
they had seen Superintendent Byrnes I believe; he then let me
in; outside of myself, there were two inside as well.
Q. Two inside at the time? A. Yes, sir; before that and
after.
Q. They were not election officers at all? A. No, sir.
Q. Dc you know their names? A. No, sir.
Q. While you were there aiting as a watcher, did you discover
any irregularities? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What? A. I noticed outsiders going inside the booths
with the voters.
Q. Did you say or do anything about that? A. I objected
every time.
Q. To whom did you object? A. To the chairman of the
inspectors.
Q. What was said or done? A. He told the men to go out;
he had no business inside, but no sooner had he said it than
he was in again.
Q. Where was the polioeman at this time? A. In and out
Q. Did he see these men going in the booth? A. Yes, sir.
Q.-Did he hear the chairman tell them they must not go in?
2L Yes, sir; because he spoke very loud and distinct
Q You say the man would stbe out and in? A. Yes, sir; no
sooner turned his back than I saw another man inside.
Q. Did that occur frequently during the day? A. Yes, sir;
quite.
Q. Did you see any other irregularities? A. At one time
I came very near getting a licking.
Q. How did that happen? A. I saw one of the outsiders going
inside the booth with a voter, and when he came out, I chal-.
lenged his vote on those grounds, and finally he was thrown
out, and he came around and was going to hit me.
Q. Who came around? A. The voter.
Q. How do you know he was going to hit you? A. Came
around with his fist; there were several men between him and
me, and naturally he could not do anything.
Q. Did you see anypeople there who claimed to be disabled?
rAi. Several.
Q How many? A. About half a dozen.
Q. What disablement did they claim? A. They were blind,
and some men claimed they could not use their hands




I  *  '-  - ', a 


649
Q. Did those me who were blind give any evidence of blind.
ness? A. The first man'went inside and did not say anything,
and got his ballot a few minutes afterward, and another man
went inside with him, without the request of the voter to go in
with him, and after he was rejected, he said that he was blind;
he told the inspector that he was, this other man, that he
could not see.
Q. Did he take any oath? A. After he came out the first
time he took the oath.
Q. Took the oath that he was blind? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What happened then? A. Admitted him inside the booth,
of course.
Q. This other man went with him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Came out and he voted? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The first time, you say, the man went in without saying any,
thing? A. Yes, sir; got his ballots and went inside
Q. Did he walk to the poll clerks alone? A. Yes, sir; came in
alone, and went out alone.
Q. Had no assistance given him in getting out? A. No, sir.
Q. Gave every appearance of having his eyesight? A. He
walked slow, but he walked alone and knew where he was going.
Q. Was he blind or not? A. He was near-sighted, perhaps, but
I could not say whether he was blind or not; he said he could not
read, he was so near-sighted.
Q. So near-sighted he could not read? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were there any other cases of that sort? A. Well, there
were several that were totally blind; they swore that they were
blind; they swore that they were blind, and naturally allowed
inside with assistance.
Q. What was the appearance of these as to blindness? A. I
don't know what you mean by appearance exactly.
Q. Appearance of being totally blind? A. Yes, sir; they were
blind.
Q. Did you notice any Italians voting there?  A. Several, I
remember.
Q. Did any of those people swear they were blind? A. I don't
believe they did.
Q. Did you see any of those people get money? A. No, sir.
(No croys-examination.)
Henry A. Snow, called as a witness by Mr. Sutherland, being
duly sworn and examined, testified as follows:
Q. Where do you reside? A. No. 210 West Fourth street!




550
Q. What is your business? A. 1 work for Scoti & Barnes.
Q. Were you a Republican watcher last fall? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where stationed? A. I have forgotten the election district
but it was No. 93 Ohrystie street.
Q. Did you take your certificate with you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you exhibit it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To whom? A. To the Democratic inspector.
Q. Were you allowed to take your proper place? A. No, sir.
Q. Who objected to it? A. There were some parties came in
from thie outside of the street, and seen me inside the rali and
objected to it, and the Democratic inspectors they told me that I
would have to get out; told me to get out; I said I had the privilege of staying in there; he called on the policeman -to put me out
and the policeman told me I would have to go.
Q. Who was the policeman? A. I don't know his name, but I
liave his number.
Q. What was it? X. No. 2155.
Q. He ordered you to go out then? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At what time in the day was that? A. It was alioni 11
o'elock'.
Q. How long did you remain outside? A. I remained outside
there until Mr. Smith came along from the Republican Club, and
he asked me why I was outside, and I said I was put out, and
he told me go inside the rail and stay there, and I did so untir
I guess about 1 o'clock or half-past, when these same people came
in again and objected, and the Democratic inspector told me to
get out, and the policeman said he would have to enforce the
rule; I spoke about the rules in the little book they had, and they
said that did not count,
Q. Who said it did not count? A. The Democratic inspector.
Q. You were put out again? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see any irregularities in the voting? 'A Well, I
think it was 27 repeaters there, but I did not see two men vote
twice; at least, T did not see one man vote twice.
Q. What names did they vote on? A. On men who had voted
earlier in the morning.
Q. On the same names already voted? A. Yes, sir; and these
parties who did vote, claimed to be the right people, and swore
all that was necessary, and it appeared that way.
Q. How many cases of that kind were there T.-  wzenty-five
or 27.
Oosmeoamination by Mr. NTconl
~. Were you a witness before the grand jury? t.  o, sfir




..........  %
I             c....:
651
IBy Senator Bradley:
Q. Did you give testimony before the grand jury on these eleo -
tion frauds? A. No, sir; I have not; this is the first testimony
I have given. 
Q. Did you make a report of your testimony to Mr. Murray?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You told him what you have told us? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you not afterward subpoenaed to come down before
the grand jury to investigate these election frauds? A. I was
subpoenaed to come here, that was all I received.
Q. This is the only court to which you have come? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. You are a Republican in politics? A. Yes, sir.
~Tames J. Martin, recalled for further examination by Mr.
Sutherland, testified as follows:
Q. The regulations require you to keep a book of complaints
made against officers, do they not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you keep such a book? A. There is such a book kept
in the offioe of the complaint clerk.
Q. Who is he? A. His name is Peterson.
Q. The regulations also require you to keep a record of the
trials before you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who keeps that book? A. It is also kept in the clerk's
office.
Q. By the same clerk? A. No, sir; by another clerk.
Q. What is his name? A. Derby; but I am not positive about
that
Q. You sometimes examine these records of complaints? A.
No, sir; I do not; except as far as they come to my office.
Q. What is the purpose of keeping that record? A. That is
for the purpose of reference at any time, to show the date of the
complaints, date transmitted to the president's office for approval,
or date returned, and date of the trial, and judgment rendered
by the board.
Q. Isn't that the book upon which the fact that a complaint
is made is first entered? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How do you learn that a complaint is made? A. The
usual complaints for violation of the rules come from the captain of the precinct to the superintendent's office; from the
superintendent's office to the office of the complaint clerk, where
entries are made in those books.
Q. Then what? A. Then transmitted to my office, where, as
chairman of the committee on rules and discipline, I examine
the complaints as to form.




552


Q. T/ese complainfs come from the compaint clerk directly to
you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you have knowledge, then, by communication from the
clerk of every complaint that goes on that book? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were there any complaints filed in your office against policemen prior to the last election, charges prior to the last election
with regard to registration or conduct of the officers at registration places?  A. I think there were some complaints in
reference to the officers being inside the polling places, sitting
down, in violation of the rules in that respect
Q. You say on election day? A. No, sir; days of registration
Q. Were there many such complaints? A. I think quite a
number.
Q. Were there   complaints against any   officers growing
out of any other infraction of the law referring to elections?
A. Registrations?
Q. Yes, sir. A. I don't recolledb of any.
Q. Do you remember that the newspaqpers were filled with the
accounts of padded registration? A. Yes, sir; I remember there
was something in the newsapers to that effect
Q. Do you remember that investigations were had on that
subject, and a good many names stricken from the registration
list? A. There were some investigations made; yes, sir.
Q Do you remember that it was charged that the police were
implicated in that to some extent? A. I don't recollect that
it was.
Q. Was there any complaint filed against officer No. 493 to
your recollection? A. I do not recall it.
Q. Do you remember that the New York Herald and the New
York Press in the edition of Sunday, October 22d, published
an arcount of the visit of their reporters, to the saloon kept by
District Leader Timothy D. Sullivan, and their examination of
the premises to see whether men could live in the stories whence
tihey were registered?' A. I remember there was something published in the newspapers on that subject
Q. Do you remember that the same account said that on the
floor above Mr. Sullivan's saloon, they found people engaged in
gambling? A. I don't recollect the account in detail.
Q. And that officer 493 was there on both their visits?  A.
I remember there was something stated about a police officer
being in the place.
Q. Diq you take any steps to investigate the truth of a'tt
statement?  A. I talked with Superintendent Byrnes about it
Q. What else did you do? A. The matter was in his hda, he
was investigating it.




r,


563
Q. What else? W. Nothing further.
Q. Did you ever inquire what was the result of that investigation? A. No, sir; I did not; there was no special report made
on it,
Q. Have you the complaint that was filed with your board by
Dr. Parkhurst? A. I don't think the communication of the
society is there, but I can state what it was
Q. Yes; here it is; is that a copy of the onmmunication? A.
Tis is the answer of the Parkhurst Society to the resolution
adopted by the board of police on the 24th of January, asking
that they should present any evidence which they might have as
to disorderly houses in the fourth precinct; in answer to tie
resolution adopted by us, of which you have a copy on the
other paper.
Q. I now show you a copy of your resolution adopted on the
24th of January? A. The record shows that it, was adopted
Jauary 23d, according to this copy; the letter of Mr. Parkhurbt shows it was January 24th; I think the 23d is correct
Q. But the letter unquestionably refers to the resolution I
now have? A. Yes, sir; no doutbt about that.
The two papers are marked Exhibits "A" and "B" of this
dati, April 8, 1894.
Q. Is this paper a copy of the memorandum that was presented
to the commissioners with reference to policemen going about
in citizen's dress to enforce the Excise Law? A. I suppose this
is a copy.
Q. Is it a paper which you produce A. The clerk informs me
that on examination of the files of the police department the
original of this communincation is not on file; he can give the
reason for that, as far as he knows, I suppose.
Q. From that data does he make this; this is furnished you 'by
the clerk? A Yes, sir; and I prerume that 's a copy of tih
original communication.
Q. Do you know where he-? A. The clerk told me that he
had sent to Senator Boyd and procured a copy in that way; the
original paper has been mislaid somewhere in the office, it has
been looked at so often lately.
Q. Then, so far as you can tell, this is an accurate copy? A
Yes, sir; it is.
(Paper marked Exhibit 0 of this date, April 7, 1894.)
Q. And that is a copy of the resolutions adopted by yom
board with reference to tlat memorial? A. 'lTha is a copy of
the rsolution adopted by the board of police on the Iet day
of September, 1891, with reference to ithis
-L        70




(Paper marked Exhibit D of this date.)
' (            r maBefore this resolution was adopted by your board, had yo
received any intimation that members of your force were receiving bribes? A. Well, I had received some vague information on
that subject; I wont say that it was specific in any way.
|  -       t Q. I understood you to say yesterday that was the first intimation you had of it? A. I should think it was about that tinie.
Q. From whom did your information come? A. I don't recollect who it came from.
Q. Was it from more than one person? A I think it was; yes,
sir.
Q. And as I understood you yesterday, you took no steps to
ascertain the truth of it? A. No, sir; no special steps; I talked
with the superintendent, as I said yesterday; I think it was
Superintendent Murray; I am not sure; I have talked with both
superintendents
Ad!      &Q. But in this resolution you state that you utterly condemn
I '8    the force soliciting or receiving bribes of any kind or character,
*I t     for any purpose whatever? A. Yes, sir.
1;S;      Q. That was on the 1st day of September, 1891? A. Yes, sir.
a|. ~     Q. Why did you condemn the soliciting or receiving of bribes
by the force? A. Well, thene were rumors of that kind had
jr.     reached me, and had reached some of the other commissioners.
(.'.     Q. Why did you condemn the force; did you believe they were
t,  ~  receiving bribes? A. I had some reason to think that some
members of the force were receiving bribes, individual members
of the force.
Q. You did think the force, or some of them, should be put
under condemnation? A. Yes, sir; if it were true.
Q. What was the evidence that induced you to believe that some
were receiving bribes? A. There was no specific evidence.
Q. What unspecific evidence was there? A. There were some
rumors and stories that I had heard that some officers, indi|i'  ~   vidual officers, as I said before, that were around in citizen's
cdothea, that they were receiving money from the saloon keepers.
Q. What was the evidence that you had that they were taking
money? A. I had no evidence.
Q. Why did you condemn them, then? A. I condemned the
practice, if it existed.
Q. You do say "if it exists" in your resolution? A. I know
that
{I.&Q. You said a moment ago, that at the time that resolution
was adopted, you did believe that some members of the force
were acepting bribes? A. Yes, siri I 14d




~555
Q. Upon what evidence did you believe It? A. I bad no
evidence; no legal evideunc.
Q. You believed that some of the members of your force were
guilty of this offense? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you believed it without evidence? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that because of the etharacter of the men? A. No, sir;
It was from the opportunities they had.
Q. Do you wish the committee to understand that the mere
furinshing of opportunities to policemen to reeive bribes is
*suffieient evidence in your mind to convict them for havimng
reeived bribes? A. Not as a whole.
Q. Wh at was thle difference between those, particular men
and oi-thers that made you coon&dmn them?  A. Some men are
worse than others.
Q. Who were' those men that you thoukht had been ting
bribes? A. The men I bad inf ormati on of.
Q. Who were they? A. I had no specific nes, and no
itames were menmtioned.
Q. Then, do you tell the tommittee that withiorut having a
single man of your 4,000 men pointed out to you, and by mere
rumor that bribes were being takien, you actually belleved tHat
some members of the force were accepting bribes? A. Yes, sir;
I say that to the committee.
Q.,Didn't you deem it your duty to attempt to single out those
men and renimove,them from the force? A. I bad no evidence
that wlo*A1d enable me to do it; if I had, I would have very gladly
singled theni out.
Q. Did you rot deem it your duty to get evidence? A I hiad
no means of gettingr the evidence.
Q. Are Rot the powers of the police oornmieoneis extraordi.
nary? A. Yes, ar
Q. Are you not in supreme command of the entiie force?' A.
Yei. sir.
Q. Have you not required the superintendent to prefer ciarges
against men? A Yess air.
Q. Ak-nd try those charges? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Isn't it wifthin your power to command the-force of detetiv'es
to ferret out crime? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there any more dangerous a crime to this Caomnuntity
than the crime of pulicemen accepting bribes for failure to diis
charged their duty? A. I don't think there is.
Q. Is there any greater duty incumbent upon you, If you
believe that one or more of the members of your force  ave,
been guilty of that crime, than to seek, by every means wiftfibi
your porwer, to ferret out the individual who comnxmats that
Crime? A. There is Ito. greater duty.




556


Q. But you did nothing? A. I was unable to get evidence.
Q. How did you try to get it? A. I inquired about it.
Q. Of whom? A. Various people.
Q. Of whom? A. I don't recollect; it is a long time ugo;
there was never any information, no evidence submitted to
the police board on the subject.
Q. Did you ever send for a detective on this subject?  A.
No, sir.
Q. Did you ever communicate your suspicions to the superintendent? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you point out to him upon whom your suspicions
rested? A. I told him I had no information as to any particular member of the force, any individual.
Q. While this information was fresh in your mind, did you
give to the detective force, or superintendent, all the informationyou posseswed? A. I talked with the superintendent and
gave him all the information I had.
Q. You told him who the people were who informed you of
thait? A. I don't think I did.
Q. Why not? A. I don't think I knew who they were at that
time; it was very xague and indefinite.
Q. And yet so vague and indefinite that you believed it? A.
Still, I was convinced that something of that kind was going
on, and I was trying to correct it as best I could.
Q. Did you talk with any of your fellow commissioners on
that subject? A. Yes, sir; I did.
Q. When and where? A. Previous to the adoption of this
resolution.
Q. Was it brought up in open meeting of the board? A. I
think it was brought up in open meeting of the board.
Q. Was any other formal action taken by your board, except
the adoption of this resolution? A. No, sir; that resolution
was drawn, prepared and offered by Commissioner Voorhis, who
was at that time in the board; I had talked with him about it;
the original resolution is in his handwriting now.
Q. Did you talk with any of the police justices as to evidence
of bribery in connection with these excise cases? A. No, sir.
Q. Not. any of them?  A. No, sir; I had some talk in a
general way with police justices at that time, to the effect that
in cases where arrests were made and complaints for violation
of the Excise Law, that in a great many of these cases, the testimony was very weak as to violations.
Q. Tat is to the violation of the Excise Law? A. Yes, sir;
and that in consequence of the testimony they were compelled to
discharge in those cases 




557


Q. What had that to do with the bribery by policemen? A.
Nothing specially.
Q. I asked you if you talked with those police justices in regard
to evidence of bribery by policemen? A. No, sir; they had no
knowledge or information about it, as far as I know.
Q. Did you talk to them to find out? A. No, sir; I don't
think I did.
Q. Where was Commissioner McIin at the time this resolu
tion was passed? A. He was in Europe.
Q. Do you remember the day of the week on which the 1st
day of September fell; was it your regular Tuesday meeting?
A. I think it was the regular meeting of the board.
Q. Your meetings are held every week? A. I think in the
summer time - the usual meetings during the year are on Tuesday and Friday; I think in the summer we postponed the meetings until Wednesday, as matter of convenience to some of the
members, during July and August and possibly September.
Q. Mr. McLain was expected home Saturday of that week? A..I think he did not attend a meeting of the board from the 31st
of July to the 18th of September.
Q. Was he expected home from Erope on the Sat,urday of that
week? A, Not that I know of.
Q. Did you hold a special meeting that week, after adopting
this resolution? A. I don't recollect; I don't think we did.
Q. And approved the minutes of this meeting, including the
passage of this resolution? A. I don't recollect it.
Q. And before Mr. McLain got home? A. I don't remember
anything of the kind.
Q. Will you kindly look that up, so you can answer it next
week? A. Yes, sir; I shall be very glad to.
Q. You have told us of two instances, and two only, in which
you actively interpoed with regard to the conduct of the police,
one was when you sent for Inspector Steers, and notified him or
alled his attention to the passage of this resolution we have just
been talking about? A. Yes.
Q. The other was, when, on the Sunday before the election of
1892, you visited the office of the superintendent and took part
in the instructions that were given to the police? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have there been any other instances since you have been
a member of the board of police oommisioners, wherein you
have personally attempted to influence the action of the superintendent? A. No, sir; had no intention of interfering with
them, at that time.
Q. You have told us of one charge in the newspapers, which
resulted in the investigation by your board, that is the charge




55i8
In the Netw York Herald with regard to the poliay shops
existing within a stone's throw of police headquarters? A.
ilbere were no complaints, and there have been no complainti
made as yet as to these places; the complaint that was made was
In reference to policy shops existing in the twenty-eighth polioe
precinct, which was in the upper portion of thle city.
Q. Burt that same article referred to policy shops within a
stone's tbrow of police headquarters? A. Yes, sir; referred to
both.
Q. And gave cuts otfthe place? A.Yessfr.
(~. Was there any other newspaper article which resulted in
any charge being preferred by you against any officer? A. T
think many complaints against officers grew out of the articles
In the newspapers.
Q. Caniyou mention any at this time? A. I can not, buit 
bhave no doubt we have discovered a great many.
Q. Have any of the charges within the last aix montbs pub.
I!shed In the newsparpers, resulted in any charges being pretenred against these offiers? A.. What charges do you refer to?
Q. The last six molanih, charges in the World, for instance?
A. I think there have been complaints made against police
officers by newspaper articles within the last six mioanthe; I can't
say what they were.
ca. an you tell why those were Selecte4, and others left out?
YA. No, sir; these charges came from the superintendent's office.
Q. Have you preferred charges? A. No, sir.
X. Against any officer? A. No, sir.
a. Have you required the superintendent to prefer charges
agaimst any officer? A. No, air.
Q. Have the board required the mrperintendent to prefer
cbarges?   A. I don't think the board has required them; the
superintendent is very vigilant as to those matter
Q. You know Oaptain Haughey? A. Yes, sir.
W Who preferred charges against him? A. The saperintendent of police.
Q. By whose order? A. Order of the board of police.
Q. You hlave just told the committee that -the board had not
'told the superintendent to prefer charges. against anybody
charged? A. Growing out of the newspaper statements, ao I
understand It
Q. Have the board required the superintendent to prefer
ohairges against anybody ekse except COaiptain Hughepy? A. I
Mhink so.
Q Sinnce weu? A I oan not fix the time.




559
Q.Was It a year ago? A. Sice I1 have be-en in -the board;! 
cani not ma.v anything very definite about it; I thik  ore than
a year ago.
Q, Is there more than one intneaside from Captain Haughey
in whdich the police coM~mmsionerS have compelled the Saiperw
intendent to prefer cha~rges against an officer? A. I should
think a number ot these ea-ses' ame to the board of police, WMin
plaints, coming to them in the first instance, to the board of
police in the first instance, many come to the sueitnntn
-the firsat instance, and come to our board and are usually referrtd to the superintendent for investigation; som~e time s they,
comO back with the report of -the facts; the board of police
direc-te charges to be preferred- against the officer, and referred
back to the superintendent, to prefer charges in those cases.
Q. How many oases of that kind axe there? A. No doubt quita
a number.
Q. That happened a good 'many years ago? A. All the tm
-More or less.
Q. Where you, require the su~perintendeait to prefer c-hargesit
A, Yur, sir.
Q. Was theme more-I understood you to say that except
In the case of Captain Haughey,-thait you know of, there were
none you could remember, except those of ancient date? A.
That is the important case I refer to 1.now; the Haughey case;,
the other cases are not so important, and might be regarded ais
merely small breaches of rules.
Q. Have you directed the superintendent to prefer charges,
against Captain O'Connor? A. Not as yet; the matter has
not come up before the board.
Q. Hat~e you directed any steps to be taken in that' matter?
A. The board would ha-ve had a meeting yesterday', except for
this investigations, and we! have not had a meeting since.
-Q. There are three other members of the board, except your..
self? A.. Yes, sir.
Q. Cain not they meet in your absence? A. 0ne was here
yesterday; I suppose that prevenrted a quorum; I inquired if
they made any effort to have a meeting and I was told no.
Q. You do state it to be within your power and scope of your
duties to direct that charges shall be preferred against officers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q.Isn't It also within your power to command that iuirestl
gations shall be made? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what you shall believe to be violations of the. law?1
A. Yesir.
Q. Even if you had no evidence of 'it? A. YessN




560 /


Q. You have ondemned the police for taking bribes? X Yes,
air.
Q. Why have you not azppointed someone to investigate
those facts? A. We thought that was all that was neaessary
to be done.
Q  MRee coadeiimnaitionri?  A. And anry persons who had
f.nformatiom to bring the mat-ter to us, contained in the, same
resolution.
Q. Do you say to this comamittee that you believe the passage
of that resolution will stop pol, i-emen fiom taking bribes? A.
I do think it would have some effect.
Q. Do you want the committee to understand you that the
mere paasage of the resolution condemning the acceptance of
bribes by policemen would be sufficient to put a stop to that
practice? A. Not entirely; to some extent.
Q. That is if anybody would volunteer to appear against dienm,
you would listen to them? A. No way to compel tiem
Q. Is there no way for you to compel investigation? A. We
a1   dreat-an inventigation.
Q. Why didn't you? A. We did not think it necesssary.
Q The reason you, assigned for Iack of necessity is that you
believed the passage of this resolution woulud put a stop to it?
A. I believed it would have some good effect; if I did not believe
-so, I would not have voted for it.
Q. Do you wish to withdraw the statement that you thought
the passage of that resolution would stop the prafctice? A. I
thought it would.
Q. Did you believe it would? A. I thought it would, to a
greait eatent
Q. You are not withdrawing fitm that statement? Al. No, sir.
Q. When -these charges came up two years later, that policemen were accepting bribes, when the World published them,
column after colunmn, and pointed out places which it claimed
were bieng proteubed by -the polie, did it occur to you that
your resolution was not eficacious? A. No, sir; it did not; I
did not believe thie statements of the World.
Q. Did you believe the stories? A. No% sir.
j &. ~You did nort read -thean, did yocu? A. To a Oeelrft"i e~xtP-nt
did; my atteintio  was called to them occationally.
Q. What portion A them did you read? A. (On't say as to
that; I saw move or less of them.
Q.Youn had no belief as to those you did not reAld?  A.Xo
sir; I refer to attacks generally.
Q.Yol~c~u  cn norefer to those that xondid notawe X A. Neh


ur.




561


Q. Nor did not read? W. No, sir.
Q. Nor to those which you were not sure about?. No sir.
Q. Those you did see and read you believed to be false? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Were not printed charges published in newspapers, scattered broadcast over the city, a little more definite accusations
than the vague rumors you heard before the passage of the resolution in 1891? A. Before the passage of the resolutions?
Q. Before you adopted your resolution in 1891, you condemned
the police on vague rumors; you believed they were guilty from
mere suspicion that came to you; now, two years later were not
those publications in the newspapers much more specific, definite
and sharply defined evidences of guilt than the mere rumors on
which you acted in 1891? A. I don't think so; no, sir.
Q. You did not consider it your duty to take any steps whatsoever to discover the truth or falsity of the charges published
from day to day in the public press? A. No, sir.
Q. Whether those charges reflected upon you, or your inspectors, or your captains, or roundsmen, or patrolmen? A. This
committee was appointed to investigate the matter.
Q. I ask you about your duties? A. We expected to be heard.
Q. The committee was not appointed until after the 1st day
of January? A. No, sir; it was appointed some day in January.
Q. The Legislature did not meet until the 1st day of January,
and these charges came along in the summer and fall, didn't
they? A. No, sir.
Q. Haven't I read you the November and December issues in
the World? A. I think you read in December, but none in
November, that I recollect.
Q. That was before the committee was appointed, wasn't it?
A. Yes; and I said I did not believe the World's story.
Q. Now, the question I ask you is whether you deemrd it or
did not deem it your duty to make any investigation or any of
these charges against any members of the force, including yourself? A. No, sir; I did not
Mr. Sutherland. —That is all for to-day, Mr. Martin.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Did you hold any other office or public position except
police commissioner? A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. And do you devote a large part of your time to the performance of your official duties? A. I do.
Q. What, as a rule, are your hours for attending to the transaction of the public business in your department? A. Well,
i.       71




562


usually from lialf-past 10 In the morning until 5 o'clock in thi
afternoon.
Q. And during those hours what are the-speaking in a
general way —the duties which you are discharging as police
commissioner, and as president of the board; give us, in other
words, briefly, an account of your official duty? A. Well, as
president of the board, a great many official communications are
received by me from the various departments of the city government, and from citizens generally, in reference to the force, and
the affairs of the department.
Q. What are the general nature of such communications? A.
Well, they are from-the mayor refers a great many communications to the board of police, that are received by him as mayor,
and citizens generally, not only in New York, but throughout the
country —a great many of those communications; and then we
have communications between the comptroller and the department in reference to its fiscal affairs -the appropriations; we
have communications from the board of estimate and apportionment transmitted to us quite frequently; various communications
come to me from citizens of the city in reference to the affairs of
the department; and communications from the various departments of the city.
Q. Prom the various departments attached to the police depart
ment? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you have complaints against officials of the force,
and tl rils? A. The complaints against the members of the force
are made; they reach me almost every day, and are examined by
me, and usually approved, very rarely disapproved; L do not suppose there is one in a hundred that is disapproved; and trials
occur every Wednesday of eaoh week, presided over by one of
tld tour commissioners.,Q. 1 turns? A. In turns
By Senator Bradley:
Q. What do you mean by approved? A. Approved as to form;
I order the trial; it is transmitted to me for approval, and if
the form of complaint-the evidence is not submitted-the
names of the witnesses are there- and if the form of the complaint is correct, as it usually is, it is returned to the complaint
clerk, and notices are sent to the parties complained of, and they
are sunmmoned for trial at the next meeting of the board; officers
are usually tried within a week after the complaints are made.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Have you stated in a general way-given in a general waythe outline of your official duties each day? A. Those duties are




563
repeate'd egoh day of the week, and on tie meeting day, a meeting
of the board occurs, and I preside over the meeting as presideut
of' the board.
Q. At that time is taken up all questions of appointment and
promotion? A. The meetings of the board occur twice a week, on
Tuesdays and Fridays, and at other times when important matters require action.
Q. Now, during election time, or prior to election time, you have
other duties to perform, haven't you? A. In connection with the
election there is a very large amount of business devolved on
the board of police in reference to the affairs of the election'- the
ordering and printing of the ballots, and the distribution of the
same-all of that work in the county 'here is devolved upoA the
board of police.
Q. The appointment of the election officers? LA. The appointment of the election officers; the designation of the places of
registration and election; the appointment of election officers
covers inspectors, poll clerks and ballot clerks.
Q. You are familiar, are you not, with the provisions of the
Consolidation Act relating to the police department, in a general
way? A. Pretty generally familiar with it; yes, sir.
Q. During Mr. Sutherland's examination of you, he seemed to
imply that it was your duty, or that the duty was imposed upon
you by law to close gambling-houses, or houses of prostitution;
do you, understand that that duty is directly imposed upon you or
upon the force? A. I understand that the statute imposes it upon
the police force.
Q. The duty is imposed upon the police force? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And generally speaking, the duties of the commiioners
are the duties of administration, government and discipline, are
they not? A. Of the government and discipline of the force, I
think, is the language of the statute.
Q. Whereas, the specific duties imposed upon the uniformed
force is to preserve the peace, to prevent crime, take and arrest
offenders, to suppress dangerous assembly, to carefully inspect
places of public amusement, places of business of excise or other
licensed houses of ill-fame, or prostitution, lottery offices, policy
shops, and so on, under subdivision 282? A. Section 282.
Senator Oantor.- Of the Consolidation Act?
Mr. Nicoll.-Of the Consolidation Act
Q. So that the law, while it imnposes a general duty of governs
ment, or administrations or discipline, upon you, imposes the
specific duty of executing the powers I have mentioned upon
the police force; that is as you understand it? A. That is as I
understand it; yes, sir.




564


Q Now, some suggestlon was made by Mr. Sutherland, in the
oourst- of his examination, that you found some difficulty in discharging your duties as police commissioner, because of the fact
that you were a district leader of Tammany Hall; have any sueil
embarrassments arisen in the discharge of your duty? A. No,
sir; they have not.
Q. Take, for instance, the acts of the.police officer whom you
recommended, after he had passed the civil service examination,
for appointment, at the request of someone in your district, and
assumed that thereafter that police officer committed some violation of duty or breach of discipline-have you any such case?
A. Yes, sir; quite frequently.
Q. Have you felt under any restraint because of the fact that
you suggested the appointment at the instance of someone in
the district, in disciplining him? A. Not the lightest; no, sir;
I did not.                              2
Q. Not the slightest; there was n direct or implied sense, directly or indirectly, any obligation on your part t refrain from
administering to him proper discipline in case he violated the
law, was there? A. No, sir.
Q. No such a thing was expected, was it, or promised? A. It
might be expected, but certainly was not promised.
Q. And was not, as a matter of fact, reoeived? A. And was
not received.
By Senator Saxton:
Q. You think you would be entirely unbiased In a case of
that kind? A. I think I could try a case fairly and without any
bias in the matter.
Q. And without any prejudices? A. Yes; I think I could; in
fact, I want to say on that, I have made probably over 300
xppointmnents, and would not recollect but very view of them.
unless my attention was specially called to them.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. And, as a matter of fact, have you disciplined persons
whom yeo have recommended for appointment, at the suggestion
of different individuals-different citizens? A. I have.
Q. Have you found any difficulty or hesitation in administering
to them whatever discipline they deserved in consequence of that
fact? A. I did not.
Q Now, since you have been a member of the board of police
commissioners, as I understand it, within the last two years.
the board has been made up of four persons, has it not? A.




There have mee ftour coiminissioners in the board since IT have
been there.
Q. And those commissioners are of one political creed or
party? A. No, sir; they are not.
Q. Is it not a matter of fact, that since you have been in the
board, there have been only two commissioners attacheI to the
Tammany Hall organization?    A. Only two commissioners;
yes, sir.
Q. And of the other two commissioners, one has been a Repub.
lican in politics, and the other an independent or unattached
Democrat? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, probably, unintentionally, owunsel for the committee,
in the course of his examination, conveyed the 'mpression that
you and Mr. Sheehan controlled all the appointments to the
force, is that a fact?. Mr. Sheehan and myself recommended
one-half of the appointments of the force, as vacancies occurred.
Q. And the other half were reommended-? A. By the other
two gentlemen.
Q. By the other two commissioners? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Commissioner MeOlave, representing the Republican organ.
ization, had his share of recommendations, had he? A. An
equal number with myself.
Q. And Commissioner MLain, representing citizens generally,
had his share of it? A. Yes, sir; that is right.
Q. Now, I understand you to say that of all the appointments
recommended by you to the board since you have been there
numbered a-bout 300, did they not? A. I think about that
Q. Were there as many appointments, aste. all, as that;
haven't you included in that list promotions? A. I should
think there were about something in the neighborhood of 300
appointmaents and promotions.
Q. Appointments and promotions?    A. Appointments and
promotions; yes, sir.
Q. Then speaking of appointments only, were there over 250
appointments? A. Between 250 and 275; something of that sort.
Q. And Commissioner Sheehan has been there a much shortVr
time than you, has hA. not? A. Com missioner Sheehan has
been there since March, 1892.
Q. Do you know generally, in round numbers, the number
of parties recommended by him; about a hundred, or something
of that sort, were there, or less? A. I should think something
in the neighborhood of a hundred; I was thee   three years
before him.
Q. Well, then, all of the appointments to. the force ander
any posible aspect   b charged to Comnmissioaer Sheehan, or.




66
666
yourself, nuimbered about 350; is that so, of appohfntiient? XA
I do not think it would reach tha numr    ut tt numberuttat numr.
Q. That is something like-that is less than 10 per cent.
of the etirie police force of the city? A. The entire police
force of the city is something over 3,900 at this time.
Q. Those recommended by you are less than 10 per cent of
the entire police force? A. Yes, sir; on that basis. 
Q. During the same period you have been making these
appointments, has the police force been recruited by the persons recommended by Commissioner McClave, from the Repubcan party in city? A. I don't know that.;
Q. You know he has made appointments, don't you? A. He
has made the same number of appointments.
Q. That you have? A. That I have.
Q. And so has Commissioner McLain? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can a police officer be appointed to the force on the recomnmendation of a commissioner without anything else?   A.
Directly?
Q. Yes? A. No, sir; he can not.
Q. Before any citizen can be appointed to the police force
in the city of New York, what must he do? A. He must make
application either to the civil service board at Cooper Union,
or to any one of the four police pommissioners, for appointment;
he must make his application on a blank provided for that
purpose, at either of those places.
Q. Please go on and tell us the method employed by you in
dealing with an applicant for the force? A. Well, an applicant
comes to me, and I examine him, as to his place of birth, if
foreign born, how long he has been in the United States, how
long naturalized, how long in the city of New York, his age,
occupation generally, as to what occupation he has been engaged
in, as to his education, requiring that he shall have a fair
education.
Q. Do you take into consideration his physical condition?
A. And an to his character; of course, his physical condition;
he stands in front of me during his examination and I make
up my mind whether or not he is fitted for the police force.
Q. From that superficial examination?  A. Yes, sir; tand
from the appearance he makes in answering my question.
Q. Having made up your mind that he is presumably fitted,
what do you do then? A. I authorize my clerk to permit him
to file an application paper.
Q. He makes out an application paper to the board, asking for
an appointment, does he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that having been made out, what does he do then?
A. Following the making out of that paper, he is notified to




the names of a certain number of citizens, usually five, to vouch
for him as to his character - their acquaintance with him; and
all those papers having been inally completed, the papers, re sent
to the civil service board, where examinations are held from
time to time of batches of such applicants.
Q. Is not some application made to the captins of the precinct for the purpose of examining into his residen ce and record?
A. Yes, sir; and application is made to the captain for examination of his character and as to thc persons who signed the
paper, and a report is made in writing by the captain.
Q. Made in writing to whom? A. Made in writi  ng to the
board of poli:ec                    s.
Q. I understand he applicant has god in this way, before the
civil service board; who do  y     consist of?  There are three
civil service conmissi oners appointed by the mayor; I do not
tcollectn the names just at this time.
Q. Do they subject him to an examination for the puin   of
ascertaining his menta equipment?  A. Once a year the civil
service board made an examination of all applicants for patrlmen, and they usually examine in batches of from 400 to 600.. i Examine in batches of that number on questions prepared
by the-?   A. They are emined in a sort of general gymnaQsim they have there, as to their physique; and alsr the y are
xamsined mentally on questions prepared by the examiners; the
board of police has nothing whatever to do with these exaiult/oins.
Q. Nothing to do with that?  n    r Nothing to do with thpa
Q. If the polieman fails to pass the examinat ion, what of it  
sA. We never hear of it, if he fails to pass.
Q. ane might be recommended in the very strongest terms, but
If he failed to pass that examinati on, his candidacy would come
to an end, wouldn't it? A. His candidacy would come to an
end; in fact, we very seldom hear of any of those who do pass.
Q. You say the great majority of those who fail to pass? A.
I say a great majority of those who do pass fail to come to the
place,-about 70 per cent.
Q. Now, having passed the examination, and having acquired,
in the course of his examination, a certain percentage, what
becomes of the name of the candidate? A. From time to time, as
vacancies occar is the number of police, requests are made on
the civil service board for what we call an eligible list of. persons
to fill tht vacancies


I   I -  
I  1-,  -i 




,68


Q. Yon-are empowered to appoint how many, during the course
of the year; how many patrolmen? A. The force has usually
been increased a hundred each year, and I should think the same
number of vacancies occur for various causes, such as deaths,
resignations and retirement.
Q. So there is generally about 200 in the course of the year the
board will be called upon to appoint? A. I should think that
would be a fair number; it might run a little over that.
Q. Having ascertained the number of vacancies, the board
calls upon the civil service examiners or civil service commissioners, for their list? A. From time to time; not at one time;
several times during the year.
Q. What list does the civil service commissioners furnish? A.
The civil service commissioners send us one and a half name for
each vacancy that exists at the time of our call.
Q. If you had 10 vacancies to fill, they would send 15 names?
AL Exactly, that is it; 150 for 100 vacancies.
Q. If you had 20 vacancies to fill, they would send you 30
names? A. Yes, sir; from the top of the list, the ones that had
the highest percentage.
Q. Well, then, what happens? A. That list is sent to the board,
and from time to time the commissioners recommend persons on
that list for appointment to the board.
Q. Now, you are obliged to take any one you recommend from
that list? A. We are obliged to take persons from the list, to fill
thbse vacancies.
Q. But within the limits of the list, you are privileged to
recommend in accordance with what you think the best interest
of the force requires? A. We have a right to recommend any
person on that list.
Q. And do you receive indorsements and recommendations concerning these different candidates from  citizens generally? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And from officials? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And from judges? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And from politicians? A. From all classes of people.  i
Q. From all classes of people? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in that way you make up your mind which one of the
eligible list you will recommend to fill a specific vacancy? A. Yes.
sir.
Q. And is that practice, which I have described in some detail
with you, a practice adopted by your fellow commissioners? A.
I think it is.
Q. The same thing; now, when it comes to making promotions,
you are governed by a statute, are you not? A. Yes.




669
Q. You recollect what the statute is, on the subject of prom'
tion? A. I recollect it in a general way; it requires that pro
motions should be made.
Mr. Sutherland.- Wait; let Mr. Nicoll read it to you.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You recollect it requires promotions of officers and memo
bers shall be made by the board on grounds of meritorious police
service and superior capacity? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Let us take, for instance, the promotion of a sergeant, or
the promotion of a captain, if the procedure is the same. A. The
procedure is the same.
By Senator Saxton:
Q. Before you go into that, I understood Mr. Martin to say he
had made a certain number of appointments, I think you said
about 300 appointments or less of yours made on the force; how
do you make those appointments? A. I recommend those appointments or promotions to the board of police.
Q. Out of these lists that come to the board? A. Out of these
eligible lists that come to the board.
Q. And you would recommend a certain number of appointments out of these eligible lists to the board, and they would make
the appointments? A. The board would make those appoint.
ments.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Who suggests the names of those that are examined, to the
examining board? A. For promotion, do you refer to now?
Q. For examinations? A. Well, as I have described as to appli,
cants they come either direct to the civil service board, or
through one of the four commissioners, and after their papers are
fully completed, and examinations made as to character, the
papers are turned over to the civil service board, and there
examinations are made several times a year.
Q. By whom are they turned over? A. By the clerk of the
board, when the papers are completed in our board.
Q. With the indorsement of anyone of the board? A. No, r-r.
Q. The original application is signed by the commissioner
before whom the person came? A. A person coming to me, if I
gave him an application paper, my name is attached to it; I
sign my name to it.
A      72




I.
I


By senator Saxton:
Q. But none of these applications are sent to the beard of
eivil service examiners until the examination has been had by
you, and by the police captain, in the manner you have decribed? A. No, sir; it is after that.
Q  So really the names sent '- the civil ervice-board are
those that have been first passed upon by your board, and the
Captain of your distrit, where the applicant resides? A. Yes;
that is right
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. I think you are a little in error there, aM you not; any
man desiring to be an applicant for a place on the police force
may go to the civil service examination and make application?
hA. Yes; I have stated that; he may gc to the civil service tfice,
or to any one of the four commissioners.
Q. For instance, 'a man wishing to belong comes to me to
assist him to be on the force, and I could send him direct to
the civil service commissioners? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they would be required to give him an application
blank? A. Yes, sir; if they were satisfied with him.
Q. Or I could give him a note and state this man seems to
be qualified amd put him in the way of examination? A. Yes sir.
By Sermator Saxton:
Q. Would he be appointed in any event, until the examination
biad been made by you gentlemen, and by the captain of the
precinct? A. He could not be appointed until long afterward.
Q. Would he be appointed in any event, having gone over to
the board of civil service examiners, until he passed the exaniination you prescribe, and the examination into his antece' -'?
A. The same examinations are made as applicants to the civil
service board. 
Q. If he makes an application to you first or last, the same
examitnation is made by the board of police captains? X. The
same examinartion is made, yes, sir, before he is appointed.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. And does this examining Toard, as a faet, examtie any
applicant, unless they have the ceirtificte from the police cmnmitsitoers? A. Oh, yes, sir.
Q; Do you know of any cases? A. Yes; I should think hailf
of them; I should think half of the persons examined appear




*,  *               i.,, 
origimaly to the cvil service boarfd witioai exVamn&natlon by mfel
police co. issioniies 
Q. Without any indorsements whatever? A. Yes sat'
I By Senator Saxton: 
Q. I suppose the board of civil service examiners, when tey
take from the top of the list having the highest percentage
they make a choice between those that have the same percent
ages, as to what names they must send? A. No, sir; they must
send from the top of the list down for the number called.
Q.' Suppose there were 40 names that had the same percentage
and there were only 20 lnames sent in, I suppose then they could
make the selection from the 40? A. They would take them
in their order on the list; take them from the top of the list
down -that number of names.
Q. But between the 40 having the same percentage, in the    -
case I have mentioned, there is no achoice there? A. I do
not know of any such number; they usually divide up between
98 and 99, and divide it up into very ine frations, so fine, I don't.
think there is much to it.
By the Chairman:
Q. And do you uniformly sfarf from tie lop of the iist' and 
appoint down? A. No, sir; we do not; we take them from any
portion of the list,                 ' 
Q. So that your statement a moment ago that you took from
the list down, has that qualification? A. I said the civil ser-g
vice board, in sending the eligible lists, from which we make
appointments, in sending theme to us they take from the top of
the list down, for the number of names our call permits them
to send us.' 
Q. When you make the appointments you are not considered
to be governed by the names as they appear, from the top down,
but can take any man appearing on the list? A. We have the
discretion to use our discretion in the appointment from the
names on the list, and we do, in fact, do that
Q. You do not consider yourself bound, by any percentage, so
long as his name appears on the list from the examining board?
tA. That is a fact.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Don't you know by the percentage; I think you don't understand the. question of the chairman; supposing a man has got 85
per cent; you give him the preference over the men that has 84
don't yo o? A. No, sir.
4. You don't? A. No, sir.
a., *




p72
'Byy 'Cairman Lexow:
Q. Do' you mean to say that you are always governed by the
highest percentage? A. No, sir; I don't; I say that the list —
Senator Cantor. —He makes no discrimination.
The Witness.- I say that we have the list before the board; I
w11 commence at the head of the list and run down to about 87
per cent
Senator Cantor. —That was the very object of the law.
The Witness. —Running from 95 down to 87, and we appoint
any portion of the list.
By Senator Bradley.
Q. They have all to be recommended by the civil service board
to you? A. Yes, sir; certainly to us.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Now, I was going on to ask you to explain to the committee
the method of procedure in regard to the appointment of a
sergeant or captain; you said it was the same; will you please
tell us that? A. The procedure in the matter of the appointment of a captain or sergeant-the promotion of these officers
commences in this way: the sergeant of police, desiring a promotion to captaincy, makes application to the board of police for
promotion -to be examined for promotion; the board of police
refers that application and that request to the superintendent
for his report as to the character and efficiency of the officer; that
usually comes to us at the next meeting of the board; if the superintendents report is favorable, the application of the officer is
referred to te civil service board; the same occurs in reference
to the application for promotion of a roundsman to the place of
sergeant; the superintendent certifies to us his opinion as to the
character and efficiency of the officer, and if favorable, it is
referred to the civil service board.
Q. Now, the officers record, is that certified to you? A. The
officer's record is certified to us by the superintendent at that
time.
Q. By the superintendent? A. Yes; bs report coven that
Q. And if that is passed upon favorably, then his application
goes to the civil service board? A. And a copy of the officer's
record is also attached to the application papers to us. 
Q. Now, that is the same rule in regard to inspectors, too, is
it not? A  Yes, sir.                            '
Q. Now, if on his record —? A. There was one instance
where we appointed an inspector without a civil service examina.




B73
tiof in the first instance; he was appointed subjeet to the civil
service exarmnatioi
Q. Who was that? A. Inspector McIughlin.
Q. And was Superintendent Byrnes appointed in the same
way? A. And Superintendent Byrnes was appointed superintendent in the same way.
Q. And with these two exceptiona, all the procedures are as
you have stated? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, if on the reord of these captains should appear the
fact that he had been tried before the board, and convicted
for a breach of discipline and violation of duty, or neglect of
duty, it might work a serious disadvantage to him in his anbition to be promoted to a higher grade; would it not? A. Yes,
sir; if the board is not satisfied with the officer's record.
Q. I say, the fact that he has been convicted of a breach of
duty of thait sort would certainly interfere seriously with his
promotion? A. It would. work an injury to an officer, as far
as promotion is conerned.
Q. And is that why the pmnishment of the boaAd the convie
tion of the board, wtatever the fine imprsed may be, is felt a
very severe punishment to the offending officer? A. It is so
regarded.
Q. While it is true that you may fine him 10 days' fine, or
six days' fine, he still has in his record the conviotioLn of the
board of police? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that constantly interferes with his promotion in the
service? A. Yes, sir; so even a reprimand by the board is an
injury to him.
Q. Well, now, this record having been sent to the board, the
board then ascertains in that way the meritorious service of
the officer, does it not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In accordance with the statutes? A. Yes, sir.
Q. It then remains to ascertain in various ways his superior
capacity as mentioned in the law? A. Yes, sir.
Q. These applications are then, as I say, referred to the civil
service board? A. Referred to the civil service board.
Q. And what is done there? A. And there examinations are
had usually once a year, sometimes oftener, of these applications for promotion, and, as vacancies occur from time to time,
the board of police makes the same iequisitio    n nthe civil
service board for an eligible list to fill such vacancies,.and
those lists are sent to us; three names for each vcanoy that'
may exist; - 
Q. That is, if it is a ease of a captain, there are three names
sent you? A. Three names for each vacancy; yes, sir.




r
I,I
i
Ij
L
I
I


'1574
q. nd In case of a  feat thre inamn ftv&&_ye~mI~t
A. Yes, sir.       -C -1,
Q. And. in the saime way for any o'ber officer sought to bie
promoted? AL. Yes, sir; a~bove the grades of roqmdainmen.14
Q. From these three mam es do, you select the captain to, be
appointed -does the board select him?4 A. If there are but
three names bef ore the board, and there is hut one Vacancy
existing, the board selects from these three names.
Q. Those three names a~pproved by the civil servioeeamer
indicate th~at all of the applicants axe equal capacity, do they?
A. Yes, s=r.
Q. ThAt is thety have passed the eiaaination for sergea*
or captain, whatever it to? A. Yes, sir.
Q.And the boiard selects upon'the reommendation of some
one of its members on~e of those three names,?. A. Yes, sir; the
person recommnended being brought before the board, and exam.i
Ined in the presence of the board.
Q.And is that the way that Oaptuini Devery and Dougherty
aa4 Gallagher and Tnspector MeAvoy wexre appointed? A.Tb
is the way they were appointed.
Q. Now, as I underst~md you to say, their camdidacy was supported by friends, of theiis in  mminany Hall, wasn't it? AL
Yes, sir.
Q. Who recommnended! these oflcers to you and pointed out
their capacity for the higher position on the police force? A
Such recommendations were made after the eligible list was
before the board.
Q. 'And after tbdir qualifications in aoaordance with the siiatiife
hiad been determined in the way wIA~h you haive demcribed? 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Somnethhaig was said to you inhthe orurse'of yonr exunina'tion by Mr. Sutherland about the different lines imnpose~d by the
boarid In different years, amd the6 apparently large discrepaniy,
between certalin years waM nDoted; hbie you. any eaaaloni to
offer for that? AL Yes, sir; I think I bnwe.
Q. What is it? AL The atuff k       lo fines ~oamred tn thie
year 1892.
Q.Yes?     I tikthere ws ialfaling off of albout $5,O0(0
In the amoyugit collect~ed frmthe fines In 18921
Q. IHave you the list of the figures?.
Mr. huerlazrd.-Eigheen thousand In 1891 to fll,OO0 In 1892.
The Witness.- Yes. (Witness exmne      ist.) Io 1891 the
mnutfrun fines was $18,330.61, and in 1892,- $11.,033.65.
Q.(an you go fur her and give the fines of 1893? A. In 1893,
$15,664 8, aud In 1894, for fthe  months, $4,209.69; now, thes




....' -?'.. ',
575
reason for the falling off in 1892 is this: that in consequence of
the efficiency and good conduct of the officers of the police force  -
in this city during the Columbian celebrations in that year,
Superintendent Byrnes recommended after the celebrations were', -
over, recommended to the board, that all fines and punishments
should be dismissed or.should be set aside, and such action was
taken by the board.
Q. That accounts for thedifference between fines in 1891 and
1892? A. I should think it would certainly account for $5,000;
I have the fines from two years before 1891 here.
Q. Put them on record?  A. The amount of fines in 1889
was $10,861.77; the fines in 1890 was $16,448.48; and I think I
could give some reason for that increase.
Q. What was the reason for the increase? A. The board of
police, in December, 1889, remanded 30 roundsmen to patrol service, on account of the report made by the superintendent as to
their inefficiency; the result of the action was that the roundsmen in the following year, and since that time, have been _rore
efficient
Q. And therefore there has been less fines? A. And therefore there has been increased fines, except for the reason stated
in 1892.
By Senator Saxton:
Q. That is, the vigilance of the roundsmen increased the
amount of fines, because of discovery? A. Yes; they make more
complaints against the patrolmen.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Now, Mr. Martin, your attention has been called by Mr.
Sutherland to the resolution prepared by Police Commissioner
Voorhis in the year 1891, in reference to the complaint made
by the Citizens' League; do you mean to say anything more in
reference to your belief, as to the members of the force soliciting and receiving bribes in the language of the resolution, that
you entertained the belief that that might be possible in regard
to some few members of the force? A. I believe it was possible
so far as members of the force going out in these citizen's clothes
or plain clothes.
Q. That would be a very few members of the force, wouldn't
it? A. Yes, sir; a very few members of the force.
Q. Do you wish to convey by your testimony the impression to
this committe" fhat it is your belief, as the president of the


i. -




576


board of police, that the police force generally were men of the
character that would be likely to receive bribes? A. No, sir; I
did not mean to say so.
Q. Do you mean to say anything of that sort? A. No, sir.
Q. And do you intend to limit your testimony to the expression of the belief that some few members might, taking advantage of the absence of the uniform, yield to a temptation of that
sort? A. Yes, sir; I mean some few members of the force might
do that.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Were those officers who were detailed in citizen's clothes
not men so chosen especially because of their efficiency? A.
Well, I can not answer as to that; I remember they were selected
on account of their efficiency by the captains in their precinct.
Q. And for their peculiar efficiency on the force? A. I presume so.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. They were selected by the captains, were they not? AL
They were selected by the captains.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You believe those men were open to bribes? A. [ believe
some of them were acting in that way; yes, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. And your belief was based not upon any direct evidence,
or even indirect evidence, but, as it is said, upon- rumors more
or less vague, which would come to your ears? A. Yes, sir;
they were more or less vague.
Q. Was this resolution passed by your board for the purpose
of discouraging and suppressing any such practice, if it existed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, I notice at the conclusion of your resolution, you
made this declaration: "Any and all persons having knowledge
of the commission of acts of the foregoing character are requested
to make the same known to the board of police, in order that
they may be properly investigated, and such further action had
in the case as the facts established may require? " A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, now, in pursuance to that public request and invitation, did any persons pretending to have knowledge of the commission of acts of that character, make the same known to the
board of police? A. No, sir; they did not.




-  -'  577
Q. You gave no circulation to it? A. No, sir.
Q. Was any complaint in response to this call made by any one
to your board in reference to any misconduct on the plart of
any police officer in citizen's clothes or otherwise? A. No, sir;
they were not.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Was that published, Mr. Martin? A. Yes, I think it was
pretty fully published in the press at that time.
Q. Have you caused it to be published as an advertisement or
notice in any of the papers? A. No, sir; we did not.
Q. What circulation did you give it? A. We had no authority
to do thatr
Q. Not other than the newspapers publishing it? A. They published as news, yes, sir.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Was it an order to be read in the station-houses? A. Yes,
sir; it was transmitted to the superintendent, and no doubt transmitted to the various station-house* and read to the force.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Was it not, as a matter of fact, very fully published in the
dilfcrent journals of this city? A. I think it was; that is my recollection of it; that is attracted considerable notice.
Q. And was discussed and written about? A. Yes, sir; I think
the Tribune, at that time, had an article in favor of it.
Q. In favor of it?  A. Yes, sir; in favor of the action of the
board; that is my recollection.
Q. That is, discouraging the practice of allowing the force to
act as spies? A. Yes, sir; the resolution reads, that the board
condemns that as a general practice; the board had no intention
of condemning the sending out of policemen in citizen's clothes
on special occasions.
Q. And that has been done? A. Yes, that has been done, certainly.
Q. Now, something was said to you, in the course of your direct
examination by Mr. Sutherland, in reference to political or social
clubs; you do not apprehend there is any objection to any police
officer belonging to any social club, do you? A. No, sir, I do not
Q. He may join any social club in this city? A. Yes, I think
he would have a right to do it
Q. And there are in this city numerous clubs that may be,
called political-social clubs, are they not? A. Yes, sir,
Ld.       73




578


For insttnce, there is the Manhattan Club, which is a
Democrtio social club? A. Yes, sir.
Q. With a good sprinkling of Republicans? A. A very fair
sprirnkling of Republicans.
Q. And there is the Union League Club, with no Democrats? At
[A few mugwumps, I think.
Q. Now this club, the Toinahawk, in your district? A. TwentyArst district - yes, it is located there.
Q. Now, what is that club? A. I suppose it is a club of that
character; I don't know anything about it; I have never been
there.
Q. The Tomahawk? A. No, sir; I have never been to the clubhouse; I never had anything to do with the club, in starting it,
or since it was started.
Q. It is a social club, is it not? A. I think it is; I so under,
rtand it.
Q. If you, as leader of that district, have never been even to the
dubhouse, and had nothing to do with inaugurating the club,
it scarcely had a political inception? A. Well, I think there
are many friends of mine and friends of the Democratic party
that are connected with that club; I have so heard.
Q. Now, all you meant to discourage on the part of the
police force was joining out-and-out political clubs; that was
all you proposed, wasn't it? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you conceive you have any right to deprive a police
officer of the privilege of joining any social club? A. No, sir;
I don't think we have a right.               r
Q. What? A. I don't think we have any right to do it
Q. Unless, as you said in your testimony, he uses it to excess
and it interferes with the discharge of his duty? A. Yes. sir;
and also where the police officers were joining a number of
elubs with the view of getting political support for promotions,
and so on.
Q. You thought the practice of joining a number of clubs for
the purpose of making the acquaintance of politicians or per.
sons in authority was a reprehensible practice on the part of
the police? A. I thought it should be discouraged; yes, sir.
Q. It tended to demoralize the service? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was all you stated to leaders, generally, of Tammmany
Ball or to your brother commissioners in that line, done for the
wrpcse of discouraging that practice and ameliorating the ser
rite? A. Thatwas my motive. -- t-i ---                1




III


579
f
~Praceedings -of the eleventh meeting of the cormnittee in the
city of New York, Friday, April 1Z, 1894, at 10:30 a. m.
Pj*Pens1t.- Senators Clarence ILexaw, 5aoob A. Cantor, George
W. lRobertson anid Cuthibert F. Pound, of -the c Lpittee- WU..
iam. A.. Sutherland and Henry Grasse, of counsel for committe
John W. Goff, counisel for the committee; Delancey Nicoli, co'us.
eel for the police board.
The Chairman.- The committee will plewse come to order,
Mr. Sutherland, Mr. Goff 'is here A witness ha~s been subpoenaed
at the instance of Mr. Groff, and thc committee has btcn requested
to sioped -the pending examnination for some little time for the
purpose of getting an opportunity to examine a witness.' Hafe
you any objections to it?
MXr. Sutherland.-7 I have n. iobjection to -anything the o~
maittee desires to do.
Chalrman Liexorw.-Mr. Golf, I have received the following
communication. Will you look at it, please. 
(The following is the communication:)
"Poice, Department of the City of New York.
"Precinct No. 20,
"New York, April 13, 189g.
"To the Senatorial Tnvestigation Corn.:
"iGentlemen-.-Captain James N. Price, of the twentieth pto
ciuct, has been on the sick-list since March 8th, suffering from
influenza and bronchitis. This has induced such a condition of
general nervous exhaustion that I have directed him to' apply
for a leave of absence long e-noaugh to permit of his taking a sea
voyage. As he. is certainly unfitted to attend to h~is official
duties, he is likewise equally incapacitated for appearing before
your committee in his present physical condition.
"Respectfully submitted,
"DAN. HI. SMITH, Surgeon of Police.'.
Mr. Goff.- ]Before T look at the communication, Mr. Chairumma
and gentlemen, I would like that Captain Price be called.
Chairman, Lexow.- Will the sergeant-at..arnis -call Captahin
Price - James K. Price.
(Captain James K. Prce was called by the sergeant, but 414
not respond.)
Mr. Golf.- Mr. Chairma~n and Gentlemen of the Committee..
P'rom the fact that Captain Price has recently made arrange.
-etsfor a trip to Europe, to ciommence to-morrow morning at




580
5 o'eloce,,or 5:30, by the steamship Umbria, from information in
our possession, we deem it essential that Captain Price should
be called before this committee previous to his departure for
Europe, not for the purpose of a general examination of matters, but for a bref examination upon a few specific points; and
being unaware how long the vacation might be, to what extent
it might reach, we thought it proper to have him here. We
have used every effort in our power to have him subpoenaed. I
ttlegraphed to his house personally. We have not received any
anewer, and have been unable to serve a subpoena upon him,
and it appears from this statement here, that he is suffering from
irfluenza, which your honor has just handed to me, and that he
is in a condition   of general nervous   exhaustion, and
that he has    been  directed  to  apply  for a  leave  of.   absence long enough for him to permit of him to take
a sea voyage. As it is the intention of Captain Price to go to
Italy, we are unaware how long it will take him to go to Italy
and back again, we thought it proper and necessary to have the
conmittee put to him some questions before his departure. It
is unfortunate, sir, that Captain Price's physical condition is of
such a nature that prevents his attendance here this morning.
Mr. Nicoll.- I think it is very unfair, Mr. Chairman,Mr. Goff.- Pardon me, one moment.
Chairman Lexow. Anything further, Mr. Goff?
Mr. Nicoll.- I was going toi say, I think it is very unfair that
counsel should endeavor to put one of my clients in the attitude
of endeavoring to escape examination before this committee. I
believe I did state, in the presence of this committee, and its
eounmsel, at the outset of this investigation, that whenever any
person  connected  with  the  police  department, whom  I
represented, was wanted, he should be on hand; and Mr.
Sutherland will bear me witness to the fact that whenever
he has required any facility in the department, or
when he has asked the presence of any of its officials, I
have procured them   promptly.  Now, Mr. Goff   makes a
sudden  appearance  here, not   seeing  him  before, and
without ever having made any application to me to even
investigate the circumstances about Captain Price's condition..   have not the slightest doubt, if the certificate says he is in
that condition, that he is so. I do not know personally; but I
resent any imputation that there is any intention on his part to
escape the probe, either of Mr. Goff, or Mr. Sutherland, or Mr.
Jerome, or anyone else.
Mr. Goff.- The difficulty with the situation, your honors, is thi,
that I did not propose to intervene at this stage of the investiga



581
tion, as your honors 'Well know, until a later istag; butlthe sudden
/emergency compelled me to use every effort possible to procure
the attendance of Captain Price here before this committee., 1f
Captain Price had given notice of his intention to Mr. Nicoll4 anid 
if I were aware of. the fact, I should with pleasure have applied
to Mr. Nicoll; but when an emergency forces itself upon an attorney, and he desires to secure the attendance of a witnes's, hedoes not go around to counsel on the other side to procure that
witness for him. I fully agree with Mr. Nicoll that the department I ave o dubt, will secure the attendance of any of itA
mem oers here bef ore this committee; but the difficulty is that
the department has no control over Captain Price to-day; and Mr.
Nicoll no doubt is aware of the fact, inasmuch as Captain Price,
has been on -the Slick list, it Is not in the power of the police to
compel his attedance here.
Chairman Ljexow.- I do not think Mr. Nicoll raised tha't question. before this colnm-iftee. The question is whether Ca~ptain"
Price was regularly subpoenaed, and, if so, whether the excuse,
mAde here on his behalf by the police surgeon covers- the c~ase.
Mr. Goff.-Your hcgi~or~, he has not been subpoenaed.,We
hrave not been able to rea-ch his person. That is the difficult*y
in the situation, and upon this point I think it of public interest
to asJk the committee -in the hearing of Mrt. Nicoll, counsel for
the police department, if there is no truth whatever in the
rumor which seems to be well founded, and to be taken from the
records, that Inspecotor Williams is about to go on a vacation.
If go, of curse, it would be p~oper to enable the committee ]now
in advance to say whether or no they will require 'Ca-ptain
Williams' attendance before any vacation should, commiance,
or whethwr they think, suck vacation would en-able -the comn-mittee to rest assured they would be enabled to wee lnspe~ator
Williams on his return.
Chairman Lexo~w.- Does counsel care to make any answer
to that?
Mr. Nicoll.- T ~um entirely mixed up; I do not understand thi
-situation; I had supposed, the committee was taking up certain
branches of the investigation relating to polit.es, and was going
to pursue that until -they had concluded their labor, and that the,
ver~y useful services of Mr. Goff would be postponed until that
conclusion had been reached; we are now' in the middle of thatt
investigation.
Chairman Lexow. — C-an yon answer this, Mr. Nicoll, how It
comes that, although Captain Price was -not subpoe-naed, a cornmnunication of this kind was sent to the senatoria 'investigation
committee? l 


I   1...   a. f           I    I
     I N,     I                                  I     1,     I.,,       __    't                                 -        I




II I I -,

5821
r M.. Nicoll.-I do not know unless tie subpoeni was left at
his house.
Mr. Goff.- The subpoena was not left at his house.
Senator Cantor. — As I understand Mr. Goff, he telegraphed to
Captain Price at his house.
Mr. Goff.-This morning; that letter must necessarily have
been dated before my telegram reached Captain Price.
senator Cantor.-Dated April 13; that is to-day.
Mr. Goff.-My telegram was sent this morning.
Chairman Lexow.- Mr. Sergeant, do you know how this letter
reached you?
Sergeant Jacob Walsing.-From the surgeon; I was at the
mlrgeon's house myself, and receivedthat communuication myself
this morning.
Mr. Goff.- What caused you to go to the surgeon's house? 
Sergeant Walsing.- A communication I received last night at10:55 that Captain Price was subpoenaed to appear before the
senate committee at 10 o'clock.
Mr. Goff.- And did you go to the surgeon on your own responsd
bility, or in consultation with anyone?
fir. Nicoll. —This is an informal way, inconsistent with the
dignity of this committee, to be taken in such a talk as this.
Mr. Goff.-Will the sergeant take the stand?
Mr. Nicoll.- One moment. I will do this: I have said at the
beginning that an official of the department whose presence was
needed by this committee should be present. I repeat that now.
It is not necessary for counsel to be sending people around scurrying around with subpoenas after police captains, or inspectors,
or commissioners, or anybody else. All they have got to do is to
send me a note, if they want them at a certain time, and they will
be present.
Mr. Goff.-Will you state Inspector Williams will be present
when he is needed here?
3Mr. Nicoll.-I will state he will be here when he is needed.
Did you consult with the committee that Captain Price should be
here this morning? Mr. Goff seems to have jumped at a conclusion, sending out for the witness.
Chairman Lexow.-I would not criticise on that account. Mr.
Goff is one of the counsel for the committee, and has perfect right
to subpoena witnesses if he wants to; and the only question is
whether this is in good faith or not. If Captain Price is going to
attend when he is needed, and if Mr. Nicoll makes that state,
ment, that should cover the case.
Mfr. Nicoll.-Exactly. I have not the slightest doubt that he
Is in the condition presented by the surgeon. He is described




as being in. a nervous condition, which 'i's doubtless the result of
his trial and conviction by the commissioners. When you wauit
him you can have him. Those who think he is going to Italy to
re-main there on account of Mr. Goff, that i~s too absurd to demand.
a reply.
Mr. Goff.- No, the attractions of the Mediterranean have bereu
of such a forcible chanrater, that people have remained there
longer than they expected. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this sergeant be called to the stand.. I wish to ask him a questiffl.
The Chairman.-Will you take the stand?
Sergeant Ja cob Welsing, called as a witness, being dulyj
M~Orn, testified as follows:Direct examination by Mr. G3off i
-Q. Sergeant Welsing, -you are one of the sergeants at Oalptah3'
Price's precinct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The tw entieth? A. Yes, Sir'.
Q. After you received a. oommunfmialion at 10:155 last night
* htCaptain Price was required to appear before this com-~
mnittee, did you consult with any person between that and the
time you went to the police surgeon this- mooming? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you go to the police surgeon of your own mind? A.
Yes, si r.
Q.Without consulting anyone? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You did -not see Captain Price at all? A. Yes; I did~.
'Q. Whewre? A. I seen him at the- station-house.
QWhen? A. This morning.
Q. So that he was not corvered up with blankets, was he, or
In any condition - A. No, sir; he was not.
Q. Was he in uniform?- A.- He was not.
Q. W"hat time Was he at the station? A. Ahout 8 o'cock this
-morning.
Q. How long did he remain? A. A very short while.
Q. Where did he go after he left the station? A. He went
homne.
Q. Did you tell him you had a communication last night at
10:55 requesting that he should be before this committee this9
morning? A. I did.
Q. Was it after that when yusaw Captain Price this m ornq
Ing that you went to the surgeon?l A. Yes~, sir.
Q. Did he direct you to go to the surgeon? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you tell him you intended to go to the surgeon? X?
Most assuredly.
Q. As the result of that conversaition between yourself 'and
Captain Price1 you told him you would go to the surgeon? A.
lyes sair.




f/~:6                        /~~584
Q. Yon told him you would go to the surgeon to get a certrfIcate of the surgeon of his sickness? A. I did not tell him that;
but I went there to get that certificate.
Q. And thai was the understanding between yourself and the
captain to go there and get a certificate? A. It was my duty to
do so.
Q. I am not asking for your duty; I am asking for your intention? A. Well, my intention was.
Q. Was it not your intention when you told the captain you
would go to the surgeon to get a certificate from the surgeon
to be present here this morning? A. Most assuredly.
Q. And the captain was aware of your intention from your
conversation? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the captain went home with the knowledge that he
was wanted here? A. I presume he did; yes, sir.
Q. When was the captain last at the station before this morning? A. Well, I really could not say the daetes
Q. Last evening at roll call? A. No, no.
Q. Or yesterday morning? A. No, sir.
Q. The captain has been on sick leave for some time, hasn't he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And going backward and forward to the station? A. He
would go to the doctor.
Q. Wasn't he coming backward and forward to the station?
A. No, sir.
Q. Hasn't he been a.t the station several times since he has
blxben on the sick-list? A. Yes, sir.
-Q. And this doctor who signed the certificate is a police
- urgeon? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where does he reside? A. Two hundred and twenty-three
West Thirty-fourth street
Q. How soon after Captain Price left you; how soon did you
go to the doctor's? A. Immediately.
Q. And you told the doctor the captain was wanted before the
Senate committee this morning? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you told him you wanted a certificate as to Captain
Price's condition? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are aware he intended to sail for Europe to-morrow
morning, are you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Early? A. How early I don't know.
By Senator Oantor:
Q. What is the leave of absence of Captain Price? A. 'lirty
daiy.r




Ii,' W.
yMe.Goff:
Q. That is the highest Ieaie that cban be, granted?, A. He had
35 extended to him; five days, tbrat isi in the case of an aoeident.
Q.In case of an accident? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you see his leave of absen%-e? A. I did, sir.
Q. Do you not know that the leave of absence commences at
the end Qf the sickene? A. It does.
Q. So, when he gets well his leave of absence commences?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And if he continues HIl for six months, then his leave of
absence commnences after his illness? A. I think so.
Q. Yes? A. Yes, sir.
Q.The Meditermanean is a salubrious place; don't you 1tnow
that the communication you received last night was received from
a police authority? A. It was,,sr
Q. And that police authority requested Captain Price to
appear~ here this morning, did it noKA? A. It requesed me to'
notify Oaptain Price.
Q. -To appear here this mornIng? A. Whether hcould appear
here this morning.
Q. And yurpidhwauner the care of the doctor last
night? A. I replied he was stek and unable to attend.
Q. You assumed that yourself? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You sent that information last night inrpy to thle message, that he was sick, and unable to attend? A. Yes, sir; the
coanmunication I received last night.
Q.YOU sent tha-t communication to Oaptain Price last nlght?
A.Yes, sir.
Chairman Ljexow.-Any questions to ask, Mr. Nicoll?
Mr. Nicoll.- No.
Chairman Lexow.- That is all..
Mr. Goff.- In the face of - one momnent, sergeant -In the
face of the sergeant's testiomony, I ask this committee to direct
ths polie officinal, and I ask Mr. Nicoll for his kind services Jiso
to request the presence of Captaiin_ Price, he being able to be out
this morning,~ at the station-hxvuse, to request his presence -here
at an hour to be fixed ths afternoon.
Mr. Nicoll.- That all depends upon the physical condition of
Cap-tain Price.
'Mr. Goff.- If hf was perfectly able to be out at 8 o'clock, he
Ought to be able toa be here at 2 'o'clock.
Sergeant Welsing.- We had to take h-in, hoime In a cab.
Senator Cantoir.- The sergeant states they bad to takehi
hiom-ein acab.                     -
74'




- X


586
Q IDd he come in a dab to the station-house? A. I can't say.
Q. Were you there when he arrived? A. I was in bed when
he arrived.
Q. Did you see a cab waiting for him? A. It was at the door
when I canre out.
Q. Wasn't it sent for? A. That is whait I don't know.
Chairman Lexow. —It goes without saying, that if the nondition of Captain Price is such that he can not attend, if his physical condition is such that it is impossible for hiUn to attend, this
commnittee would not be justified in compelling his attendance
here. On the other hand, it looks to me as though this witness
had upon the stand here made out a case of come doubt upon
that question; and the committee ought to be placed in a position of further information, before it can come to any conclusion.
Senator Cantor.-You might send for the surgeon.
Cinairman Lexow.-You might either send for thesurgeon, or
have frther evidence as to the physical condition of Captain
Price to be placed before the committee.
Mr. Goff.- You see, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen. it is my sincere desire to not interfere with Captain Price's departure; so
that any accusation or suggestion could be made that we wished
to play anything sharp upon him by serving him immediately
upon board the steamer; so I endeavored to have him here to-day,
so that it would not interfere with his departure, and our examination would take up a very short time. It is a great pity we
can not have him here under those circumstances. I appreciate
the objections that we can not compel a sick man.
Chairman Lexow.-Mr. Nicoll, inasmuch as the counsel for the
committee places so much stress upon the examination of Captain Price before he leaves the city; and as I understand him
it is his intention only of putting a very few questions to him,
would it not be possible, in your judgment, to have Captain Price
here this afternoon for that purpose?
Mr. Nicoll.-I don't think it would. I think, inasmuch as this
committee is going to sit for an indefinite period of time, and are
going to afford every facility for examination, that there is no par.
ticular reason for having a man who is in the unfortunate condition
that Captain Price is and bringing him down here for examination: I do not think it is proper treatment. It would not be done
by a court. Why should it be done here?
Chairman Lexow. The circumstances are a little different.
' There is nothing on record as yet establishing the authority of
this committee to sit longer than the session of this Legislature.
Senator Cantor.-No' question about it, however; not the
slightest in the world.




1,7  I-~-1


587,
"Weh~rnzan TLexow.- Does the leade~r of the minority on tb#l-oor make that statement absolutel'?
Senator Cantor.- Certainly, tliat will -be ' extended after ther
Chairman Lextow.- That 'Ought to cover- that propoition. The'
leader. of the minority in the Senate states18 that the authorit
of this coimnittee will be continued after the session; he makes
that authoritatively, and that should be- conclusive.
Mr. Goff.- That is gracious of Mr. Cantor.'
Chairman Lexow. — I suppos~e that Captain Price will not
remains over a year. If he does, we can send a Commission to
the Mediterranean.
Mr. Goff.- Your honors will excuse me. I am sorry to haive,
taken up your time this morning.
(Jhairmian Lexow. —The committee will stand adjourned until
b-morrow morning at half-past 10.
Proceedings of the twelfth meeting of the ootamrnIttee, Saturday,
rWprii 14, 1894, at 10:30 a. m.
Prrcsent.- senators Clarence Lexow, Jacob A. Cantor, Edmund
O'Connor, Chairles T.. Saxton, Daniel Bradley, and Cuthbert W.
Pound, of ihe connnittees and Mr. 0. D. Schram, sergeant-at-arms
of the Senate.
William A." Sutherlan~d, corunsel for committeem
De Lanc-ey Nicoll, counsel for the police board.
O hairman L-exow.;-Mr. Sutherland and Mr. Nicoll, the oonta
zuittee have -
Mr. Sutherland. — I desire to make a statement.
Chairman Le&xow.- Certainly.
Mr. Sutherland.- It seems to me, that the committee ought to
be reieved from the charge that it has in its employ. ooqniael concerned in an attempt to frustrate the examination by the committee to the police force; that charge has bden distinctly mad-e
in, the public press, in the journal, which I shall not dignify by
naming, but in that interesting screed, is this statement: "There
are some interesting facts behind Lawyer Go4Ts failure to subpoena Captain Price, whiich apparently connect that f ailure with,
Mr. Sutherland's remark.in court, this morning, ' No, let him off."'
A previous paragraph in -the same paper states that when the
name of Captain Price was called, and he failed to appear, that
I re~marked in an undertone, "1Now, let him off-" We axe not
infotmied to whom that remark is said to, ha~ve been addressed;
eertainlV not to the commnittee, for it was made in an undertone,




11. / i  i: '.                                I


6 c            d nt he h      d;  c    y n    o 
and the comimf ttee could not hare heard; certainly not to Mr.
Goff, for he said he was not disposed to let him off. No such
-:mark was made, nor anything susceptible of any such interpretation, and  I  challenge  any, person  in  tie  court'ioom now, or ousaide its walls, to substantiate that allegation.
/ The Mail and Express had a knowledge of the nature of the evidnllce which Captain Price was to have been questioned. This
knowledge, it is needless to say, was not communicated to the
Mail and Express by myself. Probably not by Captain Price.
Th'e Mail -and Express also knew of the efforts that were being
made by Price and Williams, who is more qr less interested in
events which Price would have been asked to recall, to take a
quiet vacation.
"A reporter followed closely Mr. Goff's efforts to reach Price,
and learned how his failure was due directly or indirectly to
Iawyer Sutherland and his associate, Mr. Grasse.
"The subpoenas which could have compelled Price's appearance before the committee are in the hands or under the control
of Su;tlherland and Grasse."
I am advised that some two weeks ago the police department
extended to Captain Price a leave of absence which he now holds;
thalt it was open and public, and that two weeks since efforts
could have been made to obtain a subpoena, if the presence of
Captain Price were desirable.
" The failure to serve Price was due to an unsuccessful effort
to get subpoenas from either of these gentlemen, and not from
a failure to find Price himiself."
Ohairman Lexow.- This oommittee does not believe a word
of that article, so it does not seem to me necessary to go into
these extended details. I do not believe the committee, and I
am sure the people do not, believe a word of it.
Mr. Sutherland.-I desire to make my statement of the facts.
Senator O'Connor. I should think that you were too old and
too experienced a man to think it needful to take up the time of
the committee to explain that article.
Mr. Sutherland.- Has the committee anything else to do this
morning?
Senator O'Connor.-Not particularly, but the committee is
-   able to take care of itself, and at any time when any counsel is
unsatisfaory to this committee, his connection with the committee will cease.  I do not think it is incumbent upon any
counsel to try to saidsfy the committee of his honesty; we are
satisfied with your conduct of the case, and we take no stock
at all in this business. 
Mr. Suitherland.-I should ask the cconmttbee for permison
to take the stand and coontradict this statement under the
solemnitv of an oath, but tht committee have said that that course




would not ~'be in szeowbamae with the d~gnnity Of the committee,
but the comamitbFee accord~ed me the Privilege of inaking a SWate
ment and I.Vdesire, to make it S'eriatum.
"The messenger who asked Mr. Grasse for the subp)&ena"
knew nothing of the object for which they were required." The6
messenger who, asked Mr. Grasse for the subpoenas asked him
in my presence, and they were asked for at 3 o'clock or there.'.abouts, Thursday afternoon. I -v(-as in Mr. Grasse's pn-ivate'
office lin consulation with him; the door was closed, and no newspauper reporter was present or where he could have heard what
took place. Amiessenger camne with a card, stating that lic had,
come from, Mr. Goff anid was one, as I understood, of Mr. Gof'
assistants anid asked for a subpoena. He asked for it in Mr.
Grasse's private office, where we three only were priesient. Mr.
Grasse immediately gave him a blank subpoena, and he replied,
that he wanted one which was already, signed, and then said
Mr. Grasse "If you de-sire one to serve upon a witness," the idea
beding to have printed copies miade, "you had better take''two, so
theime may be a proper affidavit of service returned to the CoMmittee."1 "Yes," said that gentleman, "That Is a good'sugges..
lion." HEe took two subpoenas that were already -signed. He
was asked if he desired more and he said no. He left the office
with those twt subpoenas about 3 o'clock, Thursday afternoon.
There was no refusal onmthe part of Mr. Grasse or myself. How
the ifonmationi could have got to the paper that such took place1
-the committee cam judge as well as I.
Senator O'Connor.- News~paper enterprise.
Chair'man Lexow.~- Newspaper enterprise or imaginationm
'Mr. Sutherland.- Then the article says not only was refusedl
but required to bring a written order; that this came, and
Mr. 0-rasse had gone home, and then that the messenger ftillowed
me to the hotel, conveying the idea, perhaps, that it was earlier ini
the afternoon. "There were three men who accompanied this
gentleman on his retuarn. They all hastened to the Metropole
Hote], where Lawyer Sutherland was found enjoying some
refreshment." I saw no one on this subject until 1-0 minutes after
7 L'A-ursday night, when eating my dinner; one man only came tol
me; no other's were within hearing distances; I was alone at my
table, and none of the tables immediately adjace~it to me were
occupied. He asked for more subpoenas,,,and handed me a
letter. and I took ou't my watc-h and saw that it was 10 minutes,
pa'st 7. 1 said, "Mr. Grasse is not at his office; you had better go
to his, house and see if you can find him; I have no svubpoenas~,"
aud the messenger departed./
T1he article then -asks questions abourt my domplicity with the




I     I            f


590
attempt to suppress this evidence and says: OWh~y did thiey,
~wish to have it delayed until the service would be too late, if
they both knew Price was going to Europe? Why did they t1y
to hielp Price get away? Where did they get their information?
Was it through any channel which has be-en open to Mr. Suther.
land since the new friendship between himself and Inspector,Williams has existed?"
I have met Inspector Williams but twice in my life; both times
*   In tbe corridor of the Fifth Avenue Hotel; both times when he
was in company with another gentleman and on neither of the
occatsions was the subject of thils committee alluded to, and both
Interviews were less than five minutes' duration. I have received
no iieformatioln from Inspector Williams directly or indirectly
regarding the investigation before this commit-tee.  I have
recived no greater information from him than I have from Mr.
Goff; no moire and no less; that is, none whatsoever.
Chairman 1exow.- I understand that it is admitted that the
Information received by Captain Price came directly from the
effice of the counsel of this committee, Mr. G-o4T. There does not
sem to me to' be any question about that; it is admitted that
Mr. Goff sent to the po~lice, department, and aske~d them to proi.
4duce Captain Price, and Captain Price, through Superintendent
Byrnes, was informed of the fact.
M~r. 2NicolL.-He did more than thatMr. Butlierland.-R xcuse me, please. I desire now Eo requesf
of the committee soch action as 'it seems to me is proper under
the, cicumastnces. Certainly, I have not the slightest desire to
do or to say anything that shall impede a successful prosecution
'of this investigation. In view of these published statements and
the source from which they have evidently sprung, I now ask the
*   corrmittee to suispend the further investigation in any departmnent, until -the committee shall meet after the adjourment Of
the Legislature.
Sei-ator O'Connor.- Did you want to say something, Mr.
ITIlcoll?
Mr. Nicoll.- I have nothing, of coo-rse, to say on the subject
Commissioner Sheehan is here and ham been here some five or
six days away from his office, await'nV to be investigated.
M~r. Sutherland.- He has been here i n my subpoena.
M r. Nicoll.- Other clients a re zeady to be investigated; they
will always be ready; if it is t~at pleasure of the committee to
investigate them. three weeks from no w or five weeks, or six
weeks, that will lbe equally acceptable to them. I do think, 1Iowa.
ever, that I should say on behalf off Captain Price, whose;ion has
come o methis n~rg, that to put it as nuildly as possible,




','. -*.,  _     ^  ^  ',  '   ^               '. /
591
there was somne over s~t.tement of the difficulties atending tehis
effort to subpoena Captain Price. It was suggested that thefs
was an attempt to keep himself concealed —
Chairman Lexow. —I do not think it is proer to throw any 
reflection upon counsel for this committee in any statement thatl
they have made here; the evidence that we have is under oath,
the facts are well known, as the committee, through me, stated
before that they do not believe the statements in the paper,
because the facts are in our possession that show it is not tine.
Mr. Nicoll.-I suppose the committee believe the statement of
their own counsel.
Chairman Lexow.-Unless Captain Price is here to be exam,
ined this morning, we will suspend the further proceedings until
such time as may be appointed by the committee after the
adjournment of the legislative session.
Senator Cantor.-I understand that Oommissioner Sheehan is
here, and that Captain Price has abandoned the trip abroad
and is subject to the committee for investigation.
Mr. Nicoll.- That is true, and I want to say this, that while we
were here discussing yesterday, with great solemnity, the ques 
tion of the dparture of Captain Price to Europe, for the benefit
of his health, he had sent a telegram to Mr. Goff offering to 
appear.
Chairman Lexow.-I understand that is admitted. We will
adjourn especially for the reason that this being the end of the
legislative term, and our duties being so onerous in Albany, that
it will be impossible for us to sit here next week or the week
after, and for that reason it seems best to adjourn over until such
date after the end of the legislative session that may be fixed
by the committee.
Mr. Nicoll.- I want to say one more word, and that is this: I
have had my attention called to that article referred to by Mr. Sutherland, and especially to that sentence in the article which says,
"Now, let him off," and I wish to say that I was sitting as near
Mr. Sutherland as I am to-day, or nearer; he was sitting here and'
Mr. Grasse there, and my face was directly toward them, listens
iag to what Mr. Goff was saying, and I am positive that he made
no such observation or anything like it.
Chairman Lexow.- The committee does not think that Mr.
Sutherland's standing in the community is such that he need
make any explanation of a matter of that kind.
Mr. Nicoll. —I quite agree with that.
Chairman Lexow.-I do not believe anybody who linows M
Sutherland would credit that article for one moment.
We stand adjourned until such time as may hereafter be
appointed.
>-L4 ii
LL              Y8~~~~~~~~~~~~~,!  0.t  t  -   X,   1   2.   7  G~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~r\




592.
ProceedIngs of the thirteenth meeting of the commiffee, held
in the Court of Common Pleas, Part II, in the County Court
House, in the city of New York, Monday, May 21, 1894, at
10:30 a. m,
Present. —Senators Clarence Lexow, Edmund O'Connor, Jacob
A. Cantor, Charles T. Saxton, Daniel Bradley and Cuthbert W.
Pound, of the committee; George W. Robertson, John W. Goff,
W. Travers, Jerome and Frank Moss, of the counsel for the
investigtiug committee; Mr. De Lancey Nicoll for the police
board.
John McCave, alled as a witness being duly sworn, testified
as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Goff:
Mr. Goff.- I think it but proper, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen,
to state that Mr. McClave's examination will very probably
occupy the entire day; and I would therefore suggest that you
excuse the police commissioners who have been subpoenaed to
be present for today.
Chairman Lexow.-All the other witnesses?
Mr. Goff. —The police commissioners, if you please, not the
police clerks that may have been subpoenaed, but Commissioner
Sheehan and Commissioner Martin, if he be present. Please
excuse Commissioner Sheehan for the day.
Chairman Lexow.- Commissioner Sheehan, if you desire to go
you are excused for the day; your testimony will not be reached
to-day.
Q. What is your business, Mr. McClave? A. I am a lumber
dealer, and have been such since 1860.
Q. Do you conduct your lumber business individually or in conjunction with partners? A. No, sir; I have no partners at all;
I am single handed.
Q. How  is your lumber business designated? A. In what
respect?
Q. How is it called? A. John McClave.
Q. Lumber business? A. Yes.
Q. Where is it located? A. Twenty-first and Twenty-second
streets, Eleventh avenue and North river.
Q. Are you interested in any other lumber yards but that one?
A. No, sir.
Q. Are any members of your family interested in any other
lumber yards but that one? A. No, sir.
Q. How long have you been in business, do you say? A.
Since the 10th day of January, 1860.
' -,   *   \   *, 1.?   x   M '..
p"9i -VS:
{ as s ';   '-.      't '   ' % - L..~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~J




93
Q. How many times have you failed? A. T was a junior mem.
ber of a firm that went into liquidation in 1870; that was the
only time, 
Q. How about 1866? A. I did not fail; I was not connected
with-any failure in any way at all.
Q. Did you make an assignment for the benefit of your credi4
tors in 1866? A. I did not 
Q. Did you ever make an assignment for the benefit of your
creditors? A. I did not.
Q. Did you ever enter into an agreement with your creditors
to liquidate your debts for ten cents on the dollor? A. No, sir;
I did not.
Q. Do you know Charles Christman of Christman & Norton?
A. I do sir.
Q. He has claims against you nowfor old debts? A. Hehas not. 
Q. When were you first elected alderman? A. I think it was
in 1879.
Q. You mean to say Mr. Christman has not a claim against
you? A. He has not, sir. 
Q. You mean to say he has not made a claim against you? A 
No, sir; he has not
Q. You mean to swear he has never made a claim against you?. Al Absolutely and positively.
Q. So you assume now to know what Mr. Christman may have
done, and what he may not have done? A. I don't know what hemay have done, but I say absolutely and positively he has no
claim against me.
Q. Do you know whether he ever made a demand? A. He
has never made a demand on me.
Q. To your knowledge? A. Never.
Q. This is the first you have heard of it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. For any transaction growing out of any business relation
you had with him in 1866? A. No, sir; never had any claim.
Q. Do oou state, commissioner, how many times you failed or
were connected with concerns that did fail? A. I have.
Mr. Nicoll.- I object. I object, that it is utterly irrelevant and
immaterial. If he has failed 20 times, what difference does it
minake. You are here for the purpose of inquiring into his conduct as police commissioner, for the purpose of obtaining information to pass remedial legislation at the next session of tlhe
Legislature. Whait difference does it make whether he failed or
rot?
Ciairman Lexow. —I do not untlerstand that the witness has
claimed the privilege, and until the witness claims the privilege,
I do not see that your objection should stand.
L.       75




694
Mr. Nlooll.-If yo' expect the witness lo claim any privilege
that any question put to him by Mr. Goff will criminate him, you
will never have any such privilege. But that is not the thing.
lie ought not to be examined about his business affairs back 30
years ago. He will never claim that privilege; I will guarantee
as long as he sits in that chair he will never claim the privilege
on the ground of its incriminating him. I object to it, because
of its immateriality, on the line of the investigation mapped out
by the committee.
Mr. Goff.- Before I comment on Mr. Nicoll's objection, I want
to ask Mr. McClave one or two questions
Q. Have you any counsel here? A. Mr. Nicoll is counsel for
me.
Q. Have you, for the police commissioners? XA. For the poliee
commissioners and for the police department, as I understand.
Q. Do you know it? A. I know that to be a fact; yes
Q., Was there a resolution passed to that effect? A. No.
Q. How do you 6laim he can act for the police department
or police commissioners, without a resolution? A. Because they
asked him to act
Q. Is there any record on the police minutes to show that?
A. No.
Q. How does he represent the police? A. Mr. Sheehan, and
Mr. Martin, and myself, have asked him to serve.
Q. You mean the individual members of the police commis
Sion? A. I suppose so.
Q. When the board of police comnissiners want to have an
order executed, it is done by resolution, is it not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there is no resolution inscribed on the minutes of the
appointment of Mr. Nicoll as counsel for the police department,
is there? A. No, sir.
Q. The simple fact is you paid him a retaining fee, didn't you?
A. That is correct
Q. And Mr. Sheehan gave him his retaining fee? A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Martin gave him his retaining fee? A. That is
true.
Q. And Mr. McLean refused to give any retaining fee? A. I
never heard him so state.
Q. Has it not been so stated? A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. To your knowledge has any police official of any kind whatever written Mr. Nicoll about a retaining fee, except Mr. Sheehan,
yourself and Mr. Martin? A. I have no knowledge of it; will
-the committee permit me to explain; I want to say this -
Q. This is not a place for making a speech? A. I hove nothing in my life to conceal, and you can go right back to my child



595
hfood; and some Intimations that you 'are fthowing out here ane
uncalled for; there is nothing in connecition with my entire life
that is not open to the broad sunlight; and when you go back 30,
or 4Q ye'ars, YOU can go back to my babyhood.
The Chairman.- Ore.Youi will only answer teqetoo
Mr. Goff.- I beg the committee to allow Mr. MoClave to talk.
Senator O~Cocnor. —I wish the chairman to instruct Mr.
McClave not to say anything, except to answer questions, until
he gets through,, when he can. make any explanations he deemis
necessary.
Chairman Lexow.- I was on the point of instructingr the wit..
new' in that way; but as I understand Mr. Goff, he now want-i
M'r. McClave to make any explanation he desires.
Mr. Goff~.- I am satirsfied. Go on, Mr. McClave& 
The Witn esss.- Go on -and put your questions; I am through
flow.
Mr. Goff.- Now, iif your honors Please, we might as well diso
pose of this question now, at the threshold of Mr. Nicoll's objec-'
tlon, because if it be allowed t'. germinate V-to a fusillade of
objeetionsq, the result will be to impedie the work of this commis.
sion and to obstruct -the investigation. Personally, I would be
delighted to enter intc any discussion that I would feel coan,petent to enter into with Mr. Nicoll; and personally I know,
lili t b  a  elghtful gentleman. and we have had very pleasant
oot u c ations, and intercourse with each other professionally ani,person-ally; but this involves a question of right, and of prino4 -tile. This is not a court of justice where technical objectiomWay be made to the comipetency or the materiality or the relevan~
of ceri ai questions. This is a coommissalon to inform the minds
and to affect the @onscience of the legislators of this State; and
thoy can only derive their knowledge from probing and questi~mnrthe witness in their own way upon each subject that
cowfli3 up. Upon the.- direct question of the obections,Mr
Nicc! icay that he objects t6 gcing into, this gentleman's priv'ataz
life. The witnests himself repudiiates his counsel's objections,
sfiry Ihe ix perfectly willing tbat we shall gc Into his private life,
tat L..- hais nothing to secrete from us. That disposes of that
objection; but I might as well inform the committee that even
in a coqirt of law, where a principle was enunciated by a
high judicial authority for whom Mr. Nicoll, I have no doubt,
entertains profound, reverence -his honor, the recorder of this
city, has ruled over and over again, as I have the records here
before mc, that where 'persons aire upon trial and wher, for
Instance, their mode of life becomes a subject that may be relevent to the inquiry, that the inquiry as to their mode of life, may
bie gon~e bko aind properly pursued; and ampart firo that being






J -


good law, It Is good morals. There Is not a presidenrt
of a bank ito-day in New York to wihom,'if it was reported that
one of his clerks or subordinates was living beyond his means, oui
the race-course, in the gambling hail, with women ot questionable
*repute, it would be that president's duty to call that employe to
-order, and inquire from him where he derived the means that be
was spending and squandering out of the orderly routine of his
cleric-al life. If he did not dto that, he would be false to his
principals.  The people, of the city of New York has this
gentl rman on the stand here as a witness. He has been their
se~rvant -and I do not mean my -remarks to apply to him personally, buf to all men acting in the same position - he hos been
-a servant; he has lived upon a stated salary, so far as the public
knews, fixed by law. It is the duty of this ciommittee, acting for
the public, if it appears to them proper and relevant as a subject, of inquiry, to find out, whether this man has been living as a
millionaire; where he has derived the source of his income and
expenditure. If any witness coming within the same category
that Mr. Mc~lave comes shall refuse to answer such questions,
I respectfully submit that his refusal will be more dam-natory to
him than his objection; amid-if these objections, a-re continaed, we
must have them. disposed of now. It is otn record that Mr.
Nicoll is not the counsel of thie.police department of this city; so
the witness has proven. Your honor recognizies the fact that a
corpotration, never can act, except by a resolution; -the board of
police commissioners can not act, except through a resolution or
its rules. There has been no resoluinpse;adM.Ncl
is the private counsel of Mr. John McClave, and appears in no
-other capacity. Let me call attention to the case of The People
*agair.at McDonaild, reported in the 99th N. Y.; and I read
f rom the case, at page 485, which was a case for the commitment
-for contempt in refusing to answer certain questions before the
Senate. As my associate informs me, I recollect now, it was the
Renate committee of that year to whom were preferredl charges
-ag'ainst the public works, department of this - city unuder the
atdministration of Hubert 0. Thompson, and the witness refused
to answer certain questions; and the quiestion was afterward
litigated by habeas corpus proceedings8 and writ of certiorar t
the Oourt of Appeals. The court says: "1But. where the relator
was -not on trial, nor. was he a party, but he was a mere witness
called upon to testify in relation to charges against anothe'r per.
-son, and there was no trial pending against any one, as well
mght a witness examine boefore a grand jury, conducting an'
*invt~stigation of a charge against another person with a view to
his indictment, who claimed the right to be attended by coransel.
We do not think tbat a witness hasl that rigbd."1 Tje laveeivga



~   -....f I.....
tion which yo  hoin'ors have started to carry on is one directed
to be made by the Senate of this State upon charges preferred
by the citizens of New York in a common and general way, and 
by common report, of corruption and bribery and ma-ladministras t
ticn, existing in the police department in this city. Mr. McClave
is called as a witness to inquire into that question, not as a i
charge against Mr. MaOlave personally; but he forms part of the
government charged with dishonesty and corruption, and he
being one of -that government, he comes here necessarily to
aanismwer questions which you may deem proper to put to him,
touching not only his official acts, as recorded in the book of
minutes of the police department, but touching his life as a 
citizen in connection with his official' character as police commi#s
sioner. Now, if your honors please, I say right here, that while I
shall have the pleasure or honor of attending before you, I shall
always be delighted to extend to Brother Nicoll whatever
courtesy may lie in my power, and I am sure he will recipro.
eate; but I wish to warn him here in advance that these objeot
tions must be stopped at the threshold, or this investigatiopn
will be delayed indefinitely, and the result of it will be that part,
or the greatest part of the time, will be taken, up by wrangles
between counsel and possible competitions as to their width and
brilliancy of expression. That is not what this committee is here
for. It is here   tae to obtain evidce upon which t base its report
to the Senate of this State. I, therefore, submit, if your honors
please, that it is a question that calls for your most earnest
attention and prompt action.
Senator Saxton.-Mr. Goff, please hand up that McDonald
beca use I want to look at it.
Chairman Lexow.- I do not think it makes any material difference whether Mr. Nicoll appears fot the police department as
-a department, or for Mr. McClave as an individual Mr. Nicoll
understands, I believe, that he is here by courtesy of the
committee.
Mr. Nicoll.-Entirely, sir.
Charman Lexow.- That he has got no legal ssatus here; that
-his clients can not claim any representation before this committee at all legally; but we have accorded him that courtesy, and
'he comes here in one sense as an amicus curiae. I hope to assist
-the onmmatt.ee rather than to impede the committee or to hinder
its a0tion. If he offers an objection, they will pas upon it, and
-if it is a frivolous objection, they will treat it accordingly.
Mr. Nicoll.- I want to say that t hat was the agreement
between thhe  norable chairman of the committee and several of
its members at the very commencement of the investigatio, 


- _




5698
'wren my righte and tie rights of the witntese were wen defined
amd spread upon the record.
Chairman Lexow. —The suggestion is made by several mem,
biers of the committee, however, that this may be a good point
to discuss as to how far this committee will be or is privileged
to go into the private character and private life of those who
indirectly are under charges before the committee.
Mr. Nicoll.- I was just coming to that, and was about to sug,
get it was not a good point, because it does not seem to be
spread out on the record. Now, for instance, Mr. McClave has
been subpoenaed to bring down here books relating to his household, to the payment of his servants, and to all his business continued during the past 30 years, as well as to his books, kept
by him in his position as treasurer of the police board. Of course,
as to those, they are public records, and they are at the service
to the committee at all times; but not only is he asked to produce
tose, but he is asked to produce his household book, to spread
before you the accounts of his butchers and bakers and the ser*
vants he keeps in his house, and the nurses he pays for his children, and various other things. This is a subpoena to produce?
mThe three bank-books of your personal, private and household
accumnts in the Bowery National Bank." Now, when Mr. Goff
comes around to that point in Mr. McClave's investigation, I have
t in my mind, in fairness to submit to the committee, whether
or not they were going to pursue that line of inquisition and
Investigation, and at that point, I propose to submit such reasons
as I have formulated to induce them to refuse to go into that,
but it is not up now. The only reason I objected to it now was
that Mr. Goff should go back 30 years ago, when Mr. McClave
was a young and struggling merchant in New York and find out
about his failures long before he had anything to do with the
police department. I think he was appointed first in the police
department some seven or eight years ago.
Mr. McClave.-Nine years ago.
Mr. Nicoll.-Nine years ago. Very well. Here he goes balck
30 years. You may assume that nine years ago the citizens of
New York have a right to inquire what his mode of life was, and
whether he lived at a greater expense than his salary permitted.
What has that to do with 30 years ago, whether he had an
arrangement with his creditors 30 years ago? And I assure you
it was not because I wanted to raise the question, but from a
spirit of indignation that any man should have his life investigated for 30 years past, that I put in my objection. Mr. McOlave
has said, "Do not assert the objection, Mr. Nicoll, I will answer
itn Bo I withdraw it, and Mr. Goff may go on, and when the




599


proper time comes, I will raise this question and sunbimf my
views and-authority to the committee.
Q. Mr. McClave, do you remember the night when you fmit
received the information that this committee had been appointed
in Albany to investigate the police department? A. No, sir; I
have no special recollection of it
Q. Have you any recollection, whether special or general? X
I have nothing that I can fix in my mind that would lead me to
remember that particularly.
Q. Let us see; you remember being at an entertainment at '
friend's house, when you received the news? A. No, sir; I have
no such recollection.
Q. Do you remember going to Delmonico's in a carriage withl
members of your family on that night? A. Well, I don't recall
that at all; I have been to Delmonioos with- members of m'
family; I go there quite often.
Q. I ask about the night when you first received information
that the committee had been appointed? A. I have no recod.
lection of anything that transpired at the time; I could not tenl
you this moment when they were appointed:
Q. I am not asking you when; I am asking you for a circumstance? A. I have no recollection; if you recall to my mind any,
thing particular I will admit whether it is so or not
Q. Do you remember saying that you did not know or could
not understand why those fellows up in Albany wanted to.nnoy'
honest mn   in New York about it? A I never made any such
statement as that
Q. You swear to that? A. Positively.
Q. You were elected as a Republican to the board of aldermen,
was you not? A. I was.
Q. How many times? A. Three different times; I think twice
at-large and one what is known as Senate district
Q. When were you appointed to the police department? A. I
was first appointed on the 24th day of November, 1884.
Q. By whom? A. By Mayor'Edison; and I was reappointed
at the expiration of my term by Mayor Grant
Q. Were you appointed in any representative capacity touch.
ing a political party in this city? A. I was supposed to be
appointed as a Republican; I have been one all my life.
Q. Are you one now? A. Certainly, sir.
Q. Were you appointed as a Republican by Mayor Grant? X
I was, sir.
Q. And in your official actions, particularly in appointments,
have you been in any sense guided by political opinion? A. My
appointments have been made for Republican friends as well 
s for business men of the city here.. I repeat my question, sir; the stenographer will please read




600


It (The question is read by the stenographer.) A You remin-m
ber that our appointmentsQ. Do you understand the question? A. I think it is necessary
to explain this fact-that theQ. Do you understand the question? A. Have I been guided
by political action; you mean by that, if I made appointments
that some gentlemen who were Republicans have indorsed?
Q. I have not said, and did not mean so; will you please state
whether you understand the question o0 not? A. I do not understand it, Mr. Goff; I am trying to answer it if you can get through
mny head what you mean; I shall be glad to answer it.
Q. In making your appointments as eommissioner of police of
men to the police force, and of promotions from one grade to
another, have you, in making such appointments or such promotions, been guiqed or affected by political purposes with reference to the party which you were supposed to represent? A.
A very large number of the appointments, Mr. Goff, have been
made on representations of Republicans.
Q. Will you answer my question? A It seems to me that is
the answer; if you will show, me exactly what kind of answer
you want, I will give it.
Q. Please read the question again. (Stenographer reads question.) A If you will allow me to explain thai, anid if I am not
oarrect in my understanding of it of what you are trying to get at,
I will try to get your understanding of it.
Q. Will the stenographer read the question? (T(Th stenographer read the question.) A. I think if Mr. Goff will state just
how I did make them, then if I do not answer what you want,
you can correct that.
Q. We will save time if you will just answer. A. If you will
tell me just what you want me to answer; I am trying to answer
you.
Q. I will try again. A. TheQ. Will you pardon me? A. Well, what is it you want?
Q. Have you, in making any appointments or promotions, been
affected by your political views as a Republican, or the views of
the party that you were supposed t: represent in that board?
A. Well, sir, all other things being equal, I will put it in that
shape, an indorsement from  any Republican's friends would
carry weight with it
Q. Give it a preference? A. Certainly.
Q. When you say you put it in that shape, you were adapting
the question to the answer, or is it a fact? A. That is an absolute fact, sir.
Q. So that, as I understand you, Mr. McClave, in the admini



601
tration of the police department, no politics enter into the ad*
ministration of that department, do they? A: I want to say, Mr.
Goff, that I have been nine years in the police department, and I
know n'othing that enters there in the shape of'politics except 
that of the simple appointment of ballot clerks and poll clerks,  --
and those I have appointed from a list given to me by the Repubt
lican county committee of the city of New York.
Q. Now, any appointments that you have made in; that board;
have they been accorded to any political party? A. Oh, no; I do
not credit them; I would not do that.
Q. Has that custom been followed in the board of crediting
appointments to any political party? A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. You are reported in the morning newspaper at. follows; — 
Mr. Nicoll.-What morning; this morning?
i Mr. Goff.- This morning, yes.
Q. "As a Republican, I would, of course, be glad to see a
Republican succeed Commissioner McLean," is tlat true? A.
That is not the statement I made; no, sir., Q. Then you are recorded incorrectly? A. I said this, that as
a Republican-he asked me a question whether I was in favor
of a bi-partisan bill. I said, as a Republican I would, of course,
be very glad indeed to see another Republican come into the
board of police cmmmis$ioners, but so far as the actual results
were concerned, I did not think it would make any material differs
ence, because there was no politics there.
Q. In the sentence I have read, have. you been correctly
reported? A. Not so far as Mr. McLean is concerned; not so far
as it refers to Commissioner McLean; I think' you and I can
understand one another, Mr. Goff; you don't seem to want to
understand me.
Q. There is no necessity of exhibiting any temper? A. I don't
want to exhibit any temper.
Senator Lexow.-If counsel will limit himself to putting questions, and the witness to answering them, you will get along
better. 
Q. "But as a citizen and taxpayer, I must admit politics
actually takes no part in the efficiency of the board; I have been
for nine years in the board of police commissioners, and I most
earnestly declare that politics has nothing to do with the working of that board," is that true? A. Yes, sir; that is true.
Q. Were you present at the examination of the president of the
board, Commissioner Martin? A. I was not.
Q. Did you read his testimony? A. I did not, sir.,
Q. Iwill read a little of it, for you?!  ". "0,76.76... (~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




602


Mr. NloolL- What are you reading from?
Mr. Goff.- Mr. Martin's testimony.
Mr. Nicoll. —What page?
Mr. Goff. —It is from the Tribune.
"Q. Did anybody recommend Devery? A. Yes, sir.
a Q. Who? A. Many of his political friends.
'Q. Did Tammany Hall recommend them? A. No, sir; there
was no formal recommendation by Tammany Hall; there never
was such, but many Tammany Hall men recommended him.
"Q. Wasn't it a Tammany Hall appointment? A. Yes; to my
mind it was due to Tammany influence.
"Q. And in the case of Captain Michael Docharty, who made
the recommendation? A. The same kind of people.
"Q Do you keep books? A. I have some memorandum.
Q. On these books were the appointments charged up to
Waimar any Hall? A. Yes.
"Q. To nothing else? A. No, sir.
1 a Q. And the same is true of Capiain Gallagher? A. Yes, sir.
"Q. And of promoting Captain McAvoy to be inspector? A.
Yes, sir.                                               i
' Q. These men felt obliged to Tammany Hall about electioi
time? A. They might"
Q. Do you know of any such book in police headquarters?
-L& I have never seen it; I did not know anything of that kind.
Q. Did you ever hear of it before? A. No, sir.
Q. Is this the first you ever heard of appointments being
charged up to Tammany Hall? A. I should think —
Q. I have not asked what you think? A. I have no knowledge
of such a book; and if the gentleman kept it, it would be a prio
vate matter.
Q. Will you kindly answer the question? A. I say to you, no,
air, I don't know.
Q. That is all I want; can you state whether Commissioner
Martin, when he answered the questions that I have read, and
gave the answer to those questions, stated what was true or not?
tA Well, the only thing I could say, for instance, I should make
an appointment on the recommendation of Mr. DepewQ. Will you please answer my question; I am asking you
whether those answers were true or not? A. Well, it is a perl
*Ial matter with him.
Q. Do you know whether they were true or not? A. I know I
ean not tell anything about that; I know nothing about that af
all.                                                    i
Q. So that it appears from Commissioner Martinis testimony
mat the commissionera in the board representing Tammany Half




603 
kept books or memorandum in which they charged up to TOm
many Hall certain appointments, and that being so, from-Mr.
Martin's testimony, did you keep any book or memorandum in
which you charged. up appointments to Republicans? A. Nq
sir; I did not.
Q. And politics have no part or parcel in your administratifo
in the way of policy? A. I think not, sir.
Q. Do you know it? A. I say, all things being equal, as a
Republican, if the man had Republican recommendation, I would
aid him in preference to a Democrat.
Q. Mr. Nicoll has referred here tc a subpoena ances tecum
which you received as regards your bank-books; htve you produced those bank books? A. I have, sir.
Q. You have three accounts in the Bowery National Bank?  L
-What are they? I do not know which three; my personal ac
counts?
Q. I ask if you have? A. No; I have not of my own account
' Q. Have you three accounts in the Bowery National Ban!,
either in your individual name, or in a representative capacity?
A I have a bank account, and my business account has been
there 22 years, and there is an account of the police department
Iin-the Bowery bank, too.
Q. In the Bowery National Bank there is an account held by
you as treasurer of the police department? A. That is right;
yes; as trustee.
Q. Are they in two separate accounts? A. No, sir; just a
pension fund; that is all.
Q. Don't you have an account as trea-surer of the board in some
bank? A. Yes, sir; in the Importers and Traders'.
Q. You have an account as treasurer of the police board in the
Importers and Traders'? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have an account as trustee of the pension fund with the
Bowery National Bank? A. Yes; and in the Garfield Bank; It
is called the supply, alteration and repair account.
Q. Are you treasurer of that fund? 'A. All of them; yes, sir.
Q. Treasurer of the whole of them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are those all the accounts that you have in a represents
five capacity? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, tell me how many accounts you have in the Bowery.ational Bank in a private capacity? A. My business accdunt
and what I call my personal account
Q. Your business account-under what heading is that? X.
john McClave.
Q. Lumber account? A. It is not marked lumber; it is lumbrw
account.




604


Q. And you have a personal account there? A. Yes, sir.
<Q. And have you any other? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever have any other account in the Bowery National
Bank? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever have an account marked "private?" A. No,
sir.
Q. Did you ever have an account marked "household?" A
No, sir.
Q. In that or any other bank? A. No, sir.
Q. You used to bank in the Bank of North America, didn't you?
A. You mean the police department?
Q. Yes? A. I thi;k some six years ago there was an account
in the Bank of Nortu America, up to about Oix years, and there
was some rumors in reference to its standing at that time, and
the board of commissioners determined to draw out what money
they had there; about six years ago, I think; the bank-book is
here, and will show that fact.
Q. So that within six years you have no account in the Bank
of North America? A. That is my recollection, Mr. Goff; I may
be mistaken two or three years; it may be four years; but I
think it is about six years.
Q. Have you got the book here? A. Yes; it will show that
fact; the book is here.
Q. Can you see it? A. It is tied up in the package there with
the clerk from  the treasurer's office. (Addressing the clerk.)
You just hand to Mr. Goff the deposit book of the Bank of North
* Amelrica.
Q. May I open it, Mr. McClave? A. Certainly, sir; will you
let me explain that little memorandum there, so you will understand it? That will show you when the book was closed; there
is the amount of $680.62 that was carried down so as to hold it
for this bank; it is unclaimed salary; the unclaimed balance
was here.
Q. October 19, 1891, is the last balance? A. Yes; that was
$80; $11,000, I think, is the gross balance.
Q. I presume you have all the vouchers returned? A. For
that bank; yes, sir.
Q. Of this account? A. Yes; I have them all.
Q. Have you got them in court? A. I directed the bookkeeper
to have them all here this morning; Mr. Gott, have you got the
vouchers, the checks in connection with the Bank of North
America, the return checks?
Mr. Gott-We have got the stub of the check-book here
Q. Let us have that, please; have you got the bank-book of the
ooounts in the Bowery National? A. Yes sir.




)605
Q. nd the Garfield? A. Yes,. sir.
Q.What other bank did you mention? A.- That Is all
Imiporters and Traders'
Q. Have you got those?, A. Yes; the Importers and Tradersi,.
and4 Traders'.Q. Have you got those? A. Yes; the Importers and Trader?
the Bowery and the Ga-rfielld.
Q. H~ave- youa the check-books of those? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you have no objection, have you, for counsel or the&
committee to examine into those hooks? A. Not the slightest.
Q. To look into those check-books? A. Not the slightest, sir..
Mr. Nicoll.-%Which check-book do you refer to?
Mr. Goff.- The ciheck-books just referred to.
Mr. Nicoll.- The Bowery, where the pension is kept, and the'
old account of the Bank of North America, and what other one?,
Mr. Goff.-Importers and Traders'.
The Witness.- That is the account that is kept of the uniformed fund in the Bowery National.
Mr. Nicoll,- Of course we have no objection to that within,
such rpasonable limits as a committee will fix for the transaction
of the p-nblic business, and recognize the fact that these check*books are in cons-tant use.
Mr. McClave- Oh, yes.
Mr.:Goff.-. The stubs. We do not want your current checkbooks.
Mr. Nicoll.- Those you can have, of course.
Chairman Lexow.- How far back, M1r. Goff?,
Mr. Goff.- Two or three years.
The Witness.- I have' fiv'e bonds of $460,000, and I am persons~
ally responsible for these hooks; they are all here.
Q. They are naot convertible into cash? 'A. No, sir; I supposeniot, but they are a matter of record.
Q.We mnay -not go inito them to any great extent; weI may
want to inquire of o neor two iems, and po'bly Mr. MeClave's.
examination may avoi'd that examination.
Senator O'Connor.- Are those books lin evidence?
M1r. Goff.- Not at the present tinme.
Q.Have you been engaged in speculation- in Wall street? A.
Not to any extent
Q. Do you ever speculate? A. I did; about 1863 or 4 'or 5;I have bought some little stocks; very few; I bought them as an/
inves-tment, as a rule.,Q. Had you a special firm of brokers? A. Yes; whatever Ir
did; Dominick & Dickemman; they are on Broadiway, juswt below
Wall street; my transactions are very light there.




406


Q. And hi what line of securities? K. I have simply bought
sometimes a hundred shares of stock of some kind for invests
nealt, and perhaps after two or thee or four years I have sold it
again and bought something else.
Q. Railroad stocks or wheat? A. Yes; railroad stocks; I never
bought any wheat.                    '  '...... 
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What was the date of this? A The last purchase?
Q. When was this account? A. I think I have not bought any
stock in perhaps three or four yeas, and then I think I bought
a hundred shares of the National Lead, preferred, and 200 of
common; the stock I have prior to that I had a hundred shares,
I think, of the Manhattan..Q. That was in 1890, was it not? A I think it was about
1890; I bought it in 1890, and sold it
Q. You bought it on margin? A. No, sir; bought it right out.
'Q. By your check? A. Yes.
Q. Paid your check? A Yes
Q. What bank was that check drawn on? A. It was drawn
on the Bowery,'because that was the only place I have to pay.
from.                                                   t 
Q. What check did you give Dominick & Dickerman for your
lead stock, drawn on? A. The Bowery bank.
Q. At the time you gave the check to the brokers for the lead
stock had you more than one account in the Bowery National
Bank. A. Well, I had my two accounts there for a number of
years.
Q. You had your private accounts and your representative
account? A. Yes; you mean of theQ. The police account? A. I had my lumber account; I had
been there 22 years as depositor of my lumber account.
Q. At the time you gave your check to Dominick & Dickerman,
brokers, how many accounts had you all together in the -Bowery
National Bank? A. There was three.
Q What were they? A. One for the police pension fund.
Q. Yes, that is one. A. My business account.
Q. Two. A. And what I call my personal account, where I
deposited my salary or any little amount I got.
Q. On which of these accounts did you draw your check for the
lead stock of Dominick & Dickerman? A. I ordinarily drew it
on my personal account.                '
Q. What aecount did you draw your check fom? AL I drew
at right direct from my regular business aomint, and woid




deposit from my personal account into my business aocount
t meet it.
Q. You drew your check for Dominick & Dickerman from your,
personal account first? A. Yea
Q. Have you that voucher? A. I had my vouchers and my
books so far as it relates to my personal account back to 1891, 1
think; so far as it relates to other accounts they are back, 1
'think, from two to three years; from April 12, 1893; my personal
business took fire, and a large number of my books were burned.
Q. Please do not be so. diffuse.
Senator O'Connor.- How would he indicate which bank he wasto. draw upon by check'?
Q. Will you tell the Senators upon which of the three accounts
you drew the checks, payable to Doiminick & Dickerman, in payIhent of your lead stock? A. I don't think I drew a check on
my bank, except on my personal business account; I will statethat as a fact
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. How dad you indicate which of those accounts you intended
to draw from? How did you indicate on the check?
Chairman Lexow.-He testified- three times he drew on his
business account, and drew money out of his personal account
and put it back.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Have we the fact that this check was drawn to the firm
of brokers in the first instance upon this account in the Bowery
National Bank; is that the fact? A. I state that as a fact.
Q. Do you remember the amount of that check? A. No, I
could not tell; I did not buy themQ. About? A. I should say, probably, 100 shares of preferred&
lead would be worth $6,800.
Q. Don't you remember your brokers telling you that there
was going to be a rise in lead, and advising you to get all the
money you could to put into the stock? A. That is not true.
Q. Did they stay anything to you about it? A. Never made
any such statement as that to me at all.
Q. Did you act on your own judgment in buying that stock?A. Certainly.
Q. You had never bought any before? A. I had some when.
the company was first formed; I had a little of it.Q. How far back? A. If you can go back to the organization.


I                -                                                         I:




608
of the lead company; I do noft remember, myself; I should tfitn
five years.
Q. Within 10 years? A. Within 10 years, certainly.
Q. Within 10 years up to the time you bought these share,
you hadn't any stock of importance? A. No, sir.
Q. What induced you to purchase this particular stock that
time that you did? A. Simply because I thought I was buying,
it low, and could make a little money out of it.
Q. Was it not suggested to you, that being low, there would
be a rise? A No; I exercised my own judgment; nobody made
any such suggestion; I am not a speculator, in any sense of the
word.                  '
Q. Did you consult Dominick & Dickemnan in regard to it?
WM. No, sir.
Q. Which of the brokers did you have relations with? AL
With their office simply.
Q. Which of them, if either? A. I don't know  their first
name; there are three brothers of the Dominick, and mee Mr.
Dickerman.
Q. How did you deliver the check you paid the stock with?
A. I think I mailed it to them; I think I called them on the
telephone.
Q. Will you swear you did not send it by messenger? A. I
could not tell you positively about that.
Q. Did you have the checks certified? A. No; I never had
them certified.
Q..Do you swear you did not have that check certified? A I
do; it was not necessary.
Q. Will you explain to us why it was that you drew your check
upon your business account, and then drew a check from your
private account and deposited it in your business account? A.
Yes, sir; if you will permit me to explain; I want to state to you
when I first went into public life I made up my mind that any
salary I might receive as public official I would not spend it at
all; that I would make my business sustain me and provide for
all my living, and, therefore, my salary'or any little investment
I might have made from the result of that salary was put into
that personal account and kept separate from my business
account; my living expenses and all my household expenses, and
my expenses of every other nature are kept in my regular business books at my office and charged up to my accounts, specifying
in detail what every item is for, charged up to my business
account
Q. Then only matters arising from your business in dealing in
lumber went into your business account? A., Yes, sir. 
Q. And your private account contained matters only relating




609
o yonr salary? A: Relating to my salary, or, for isance, when
I sold my house in Seventy-second street I put the money in my
personal account
Q. That was your private account? A. Then a $25,006 mior
gage that I placed on my house for the purpose of putting in
my country home -that went into that account.
Q. Into what account did the $80,000 insurance which you got
go? A. I did not get that
Q. How much did you get? A. About half that, I guess.
Q. You ought to know? A. Yes; let me see, I can calculate;
I got less than $30,000.
Q Into what account did that go? A. Into the Bowery Bank,
into my business account
Q. That dcid not go into your private account? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you given all the reasons you wish to give now why
it is or it was that you drew your check on your private account
to balance your business account? A. That is all.
Q. And a habit with you when you drew on your business
account you then drew on your private account to balance your
lrafts on your business accounts; was that a habit? A. As I
Bay, in a case of that kind; supposing I had been to buy a hundred
shares of stocks, I would take it out of my private account, my
personal account, but instead of sending a little cheek which is
in my book-my regular business checks are lithographed, and
they are numbered, and they are printed and much safer checks
to send oti —I would send that check out and put the other in
us place.
Q. You had only one stock transaction? A. Yes, tihat is allyou mean that one time?. That one time?   A. I suppose in 10 years I probably
bought and sold stocks 20 or 30 times.
Q. Through this one firm? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you swear that that check which you drew was not
upon the police pension fund? A. Absolutely; and anybody
that has ever made any statement such as that is an absolute
and contemptible liar.
Mr. Nicoll.-Give him an opportunity to answer.
The Witness.-Anybody that has made a statement of that
kind that I have touched a dollar of that police department is a
contemptible liar.
Cha'irman Lexow.-We must ask you to restrain yourself.
The Witnes —  I have got some rights; I am an honest and an
honorable man, and I do not propose to be insulted in this way;
I say if Mr. Goff has got any information of that kind who eves
made it is a contemptible, miserable liar.
L        '77




610
MaIiafrrnn Lew-You have already stated that on t~iree
occasions. One will do. Just answer the question.
Q You have sat as judge in the examination of policemen? A.
I have, sir.
Q. Is it a practice for you to indulge in such vioience of temper? A. I have no such ccasion, Mr. Goff.
Q Since you are such an honest man there is no necessity for
T our getting in such a temper if you are right? A. I know, but
Mr. Goff
Chairman Lexow. — I will protect any rights you have.
Mr., Nicoll.- I object to any such question.
Chairman ILxow.- I do not believe you ought to insinuate
any such matters into your question. We will simply get into
a condition where the wivtness amd coaunsel are both belligewcmtk
and it will embarrass the committee. Now, if you will simply
put questions leading up to any point you desire to elucidate, I
will ask Conmimioner McClave to restrain his outburats, for thej
miust be restrained.
Mr. Mc~lave.- I will my this -
'Te Cbaian.n  - You n masa y  this afterward. Yon, wilj have
sbmdant oppoprtpwbtm  
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Will you tell thS commiftiem wheither or not you have the
voucher in your possession that you drew for the payment of
&tat lead stock for Dominiick & Dickerman? A. I am inclined
to think not sir; I amn inclined to think that was destroyed by -the
fre; the fire occurred on the 12th of April, 1893, at which time
my offices were entirely destroyed: my sta:1' Ibuildings were
entirely destroyed; no, I have brought to you all the books and
all the vouchers; I have all the personal bank-books that run to
1889, I think.
Q. I am perfectly satisfied, commissioner, with your answer;
410 you remember where you were when you drew that check?
A. I never draw them, I think, except in my o-  office.
Q How many boums a day do yoru spend in your own office?. I spend, as a ruAle -I get there at 8 or hnaf-pplst 8 in the
morning, and remain until half-past 10, and then go to phlice
"headquarters and remaian during the day, and sometimes I gin
taok to my office between 5 std 6 o'clock; I have my three sons
at my office ib4fth riae
Q. Did you keep your private bank-books - the cheek-books
at your businews office? SA. Yes sir.
Q. All the time? A-. Yes sir; always.
Q. Eave you made your deposits in your private acount from




611


Ywr b   new'ofice? X. My son geerally tt/es fhie money dowa
to the bank from my business office.
Q. Have you ever seat a deposit to your private account from
police headquarters? A. Never in my life.
Q. Have you puit your private money in a black bag and sent
it fiom police headquarters? A. Never in my life.. That is as true as anything you have testified to? A. Yea,
sir.
Q You know your messenger, Pat? A. Pat MoLoughlain?
Q. You have a messenger named Pat? A I have a man by
the name of Pat Mcljoghlin, who has been in my employ 25
years.
Q. Has he ever carried money from your offie in Mulberry
street to the account in the Bofwery bank?  L Never in the
bank.
Q. Has he ever deposited any money? A He ham often taken
deposits for the police board.
Q. Will you let me look at your private aoeoout in the bank?
A. Mr. Barnes, just let him have it.
O(afrman Lexow.-What year, and when?
Mr. Goff.- Oovering a period of three or four yeae back.
The Witness.-Oan I aidyou?
Mr. Goff.-No; we will get along. One of them is markeed pe
sonai. That is the only one, I think, that goes bark to 1889.
Mr. Niol. —Is that all there is?
The Witnes.- That is all there i; ti is amr only persnal
aoount; that is marked persontsL 
By Mr. Goff:
Q. That ommnences-the ftst entry In tft is In 1898; May
12th, 1893? A. Yes, sir; that is right; that is the only one.
Q. And starts from 1889 and runs down to 1894? A. Yes, air
that Is right; that is the only one.
Q That the one you keep the. business account in?   No;
the other three are the business account
Q. I thought you said the other three were your police
account? A. No; all three are my business in the Bowery bank.
Q. This is the one you kept your salary and city investments
you make out of the aonmulatoasw on ft; am' I Iight on t1iat1?
A. Yes, you are right 
Q. T hand you three boos maired "John McOlave, Bowery
Bank, New Yor," and ask you to describe which of those three
hooks; that is, the acunts tat represent Mr. MeClave; and
whether or no they are oo-existent with the personal aooount




612
fitere, or whether they are consecutive, one after tie other? X
They are right in succession, comnmencing back; commencing as
one book is filled up, and another opened by the bank; it is a
book of deposit; you have three of them altogether.
Q. Those three? A. There is another one.
Q, We have one marked personal.    A. I beg your pardon;
yes, that is personal; these are all in the business accounts.
Q. Those are all business account? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I am not wishing to look at the contents, except to fix the
dates, Mr. McClave? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I hand you a fourth book and ask you to describe that book;
th is marked personal on the outside? A. That is the book which
iS marked my personl account, and contains the deposits for
my salary and any other little investments that I may have made,
besides the sale of the house for $58,000, aad a mortgage placed
ast August upon my home of $25,000.
Q You obtained a mortgage on your home? A. On my home;
Jes, sir.
Q. Twenty-five thlousand dollar?  SA. Tweuty-five thousand
dollars; yes, sir. 
Q. Will you please point out in these business books the item
of $25,000 that you paid to Hass, appears for the deroration of
your house? A. I did not pay any such amount of money at all
Q. I ask you, if you pleaseMr. Nicoll.-That perhaps is as good an occasion as any to have
ilie committee pass upon it.
Chairman Lexow.-The witness does not ask it.
The Witness.-There is not a word of truth in it. I never paid
any such money. I think about $6,000 would be nearer to it than
25,000.
Mr. Nicoll.-I do not expect the witness will ask any such
privilege. There is no possible aspect of this examination in
wtich he will permit me to assert any privilege whatever.
Chairman Lexow.-Then I would not do it   *
Mr. Nicoll.-BRecuse we want to have this question decided.
It is an objectionable thing. Mr. Goff wants to know for his
future enlightenment how far you are going to permit an investigation into a han's private affairs.
Senator Saxtos.-I do not know how the other members have
felt, but in view of the charges against the police departmentI understand they are charged with practices by which they have
obtained large gains from illegitmate services-it seems to me
their private business and public business are so interdependent
on ead  other that to sustain sunch a charge we will have to
permit a large latitude to go into private affairs; otherwise they




613


may have accumulated a lot of wealth, which' ftey say they
obtained legitimately, and the people may make the charge that
they obtained that illegitimately. How are we to determine
whether that wealth was obtained illegitimately or not without
we go into their affairs.
Mr. Nicoll. —Will you permit me to answer that question?
Senator Saxton.- Yes.
Mr. Nicoll.- I think I have got the answer right in my mind,
and the answer is this: " If any evidence or corruption is produced
here, you understand, by counsel or by these complainants, then
it may be proper for the proposed corroborating and substantiating, in that aspect o? the case, to take the private examination of public officials; but before any such foundation is laid, to
take a man's private account, household bills, business affairs,
and ransack and spread them out before the public, it seems to
me to be a departure from the ordinary procedure adopted by
committees in the past, and a very serious violation of the rights
of individuals. There has been a talk, I do not know for how
many years, that everybody has grown rich in connection with
tlie police department, and that Mr. McClave has. Here he to-day
stands absolutely refusing to allow his counsel to claim a privilege; and if it is true, let them bring some evidence; and if it is,
let them go into the private affairs, if you think it necessary; but
will you permit them in advance to take their bank accounts, to
take their domestic accounts, their business accounts, and spread
them out before the readers of this city, before all their rivals in
business, before all their social friends? Would any member of
this committee like it? Would you not resist it to the last
drop of blood in your veins.
Chairman Lexow.-We might object, but no objection is made
by the witness, therefore —
Mr. Nicoll. —I know; but if a member of this committee was
charged of being dishonest, and some proof was laid that there
was anything of that sort, then it might be followed by some
evidence to show  that during the period when they had
acquired illegitimate gains they had made large deposits or
splendid investments, or something of that sort, then, counsel
might not, perhaps, be allowed any objection; but here we are in
advance of anything of the sort, and we are asked to spread all
these things upon the record without a single scintilla of proof
I submit with all-I know you are a fair-minded body of men,
and I know also that you are almost all lawyers, knowing more
about it than I do, and I leave it to your sense of fairness and
justice, and to your knowledge of law, and your own experience




614
as to whietfier this is tle procedure you will permt to lbe adopap
by the counsel for the committee
Oh&irman Lexow.- I think it is usual, on examinations of this
kind, to ask counsel on the other side if he expects to connect
it with anything that will throw light on it?
Senator O'Connor.-The evidence of matters connected with
his private life may be very important as throwing light upon
his public life. We have got to take these matters as they
come up. If the matters connected with his private affairs are
so remote that it seems impossible to affect his public life, we
wont permit it; but it is hard to tell whether it has such a
bearing or not  It seems to me, that we ought to hear the
testimony for the present, and assume that Mr. Goff intends
to make it material, and if it is not material and is noI conneced with any acts on the part of Mr. McClave or the police
comnnissioners, which would be improper in their official opacity, then this wont have any bearing.
Chairman Lexow.-Do you expect to connect it?
Mr. Goff.-The    learned  counsel's position  presenT  the
strangest phenomena of anything ever presented in a court of
justice. Here is a witness on the stand who has, with oonsiderable warmth today, expressed his determination to demonstrate
his honesty above all cavil and question, and here his counsel
stands up and says, don't do it
Mr. Nicoll.-You are misinformed; I don't do it, and I stated
privately Some few minutes ago to you, that we would have to
have this question settled in this witness or some other way,
and we might as well have it argued and debated now.
Chairman Lexow.- Do you expect to connect it, Mr. Goff?
Mr. Goff.- I expect to; I do not hesitate to say in Mr. McClave's
hearing, and give him warning, in my expectation I may fail in it;
I do not think I will- that we will prove Mr. McClave has
banked the proceeds of bribery and corruption in his bank.
Mr. McClave.- I want to say to you, it is absolutely false.
Chairman Lexow.- The objection is overruled.
Senator O'Connor.-If they prove that, there will be no question of this at all.
Mr. Goff.- I can not get at it immediately; here is an adverse
witness on the stand; will your honors not extend to me the rights
that courts extend to counsel with an antagonistic witness; if I
put a legal question in, I know the answer that would come; it
would be foolish to attempt to do so; this case, if it succeeds at
all, must depend on inherent justice to prove the ciroamstaioes
that exist
Chairman Lexow. —The objection has been overruled, and,
therefore, there is no question for discussion.




615


RenAtor Saxiton.- We presume yor know what you are talking
about, and you should make the charges good; I think. there is a
great deal of force in Mr. Nicoll's Position that inwhauuacioqus ahcxuld,not be made by indirection, but there ought to be some direct
proof; the moment you establish one dishonest act of this official,
then I should be in -favor of giving the greatest latitude to prove
everything in public and private life, but I think iii some points
of the investigation, we ought to have some proof of dishIoneat
practices by this man as an official; I do not think this case should
be built up entirely on inferences.
Mr. Goff.- But, if the Hoaiomble Senator will bear with me a
moment.
Senator Saxton.- We indulge you with the inference that you
are going to make proof, and this goes to the method of the proof,
and I think it is entirely proper to overrule the objection..
Chairman Lexow.- G3o on, Mr. Gojff we will ta-ke up all the
session in this discussion.
Mr. Nicoll.- I do not want to take up one minute. Has not
Nfr. Goff told the. committee he expected to be able to prove that
M1r. Mc~lave had banked the proceeds of corruption?
Senator Saxton.- Yes.
Mr. NicolL IIf he expects to prove that, he has got that proof
somewhere, and now let us have it
Ohairrman ILexoiw.-.Apparently he is laying the foundation.
Senator O'Coinnor.- We had better,allow the counsel to take
his proof.
Mr. Nicoll.-. If he does not make it good, it will react on him
badly.
Mr. Gotff.- All we can say is we are all hum'an, and all liable
to err, aind the most we can rely upon is our judgment, but I
never made'a statement that I want to seek a way out of it.
(Jimirman Liexow..- If you will continueMr. Go~ff.-I -never qeek a way out of a position T toka
Mr. Nicolld- But you always leave a chatnce to find your wayj
out.
By Mr. (off:
Q. Now, Mr. McClave, you testified 'that your account in the
]Bowery Bank was a private account; this bank-book is marked.
personal; do they represent the one and -the sae thing? A. It
is the only one; yes, sir.
Chairman Lexow.-Are you offerting those in evidence?
Mr. Goff.- No, sir; not yet
Q. Did you receive a check from George W. Judd, of 92 Park
row? A. No, air; never did.




1616. Did you ever appoint a policeman on the force for George
W. Judd? A. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Q. Do you know Mr. Judd? A. No, sir; never saw him.
Q. Did you ever hear of him? A. I think I had a son-in-law
who was a clerk with Mr. Judd some years ago, one that I had
some difficulty with in connection with my family.
Q. Do you know what business Mr. Judd, was in? A. I think
he was in the produce business, although I have never been at
his place of business.
Q. Do you remember appointing a policeman that came from
New Jersey at his request, either directly by you, or by anybody
else? A. I don't remember it, sir; r don't recollect doing anything
of that kind.
Q. Will you swear you did not appoint a policeman by the name
of Cook from Whitehall, New Jersey, at his request? A. I don't
'tink I ever did.                                        '
Q Will you swear you dd not? AL T   dthe best of my recoll
lection, I never did.
Q. Wouldn't it strike you as remarkable if it was a man coming
from New Jersey that you appointed? A. I don't think I ever
appointed such a man.
Q. Will you swear you never ap(pointed Frederick G. Oook, from
Whitehall, New Jersey, on the police force? A. I have no recollection of any such name; I may have appointed a man by the
name of Cook, but I think the rules of the police department prohibit the appointment of a man not a resident of the city.
Q. The rules are all right; will you swear you did not receive
a check from George W. Judd, drawn on the North River Bank,
in 1887, to the amount of $250? A. Positively, sir.
Q. You are clear about that? A. Positively, sir.
Q. You are clear about that? A. Yes; will you let me explain;
I think I can set you perfectly straight on what you are trying
to get at; I think I see through it now.
Q. Very well, if you can see through it? A. I had a son-ii
law by the ntate of Granger; Mr. Jerome knew him; he was his
counsel; he married my daughter on the 31st of December, 1887;
his acts and conduct were such that it became necessary for her
to commence proceedings for divorce, which she did, and in the
case a judgment was taken out here within the past week; thiq
Mr. Granger was in the employ of Mr. Judd; at about the time
of Mr. Granger's marriage he brought to me a note of Mr. Judd's
for $5,000 at 30 days, and asked me if I would cash it for him,
stating that certain sight drafts had been Jrawn upon him; finding he was short, and having no reason to believe that his statements were untrue, I let him have $500 for the note for 30 days;
he got married and went off; I found before he had been in my




617


family for a month, I had a scoundrel for a oon-in-law, and for
six years I tried my best to reform higm; and that no~te I think
I have still; it was supposed to be signed by Judd, and it was a
forgery, hindorsed by my son-in-law, Mr. Granger, and he did, after
he got back from his wedding trip, give me some money; I think
At was $150 or $2G6) on account of the note that was indorsed o-n
the back of it; -and it was no doubt money he had saved out of
the $500 I had given himn to go for his wedding expenses; -and
you probably have received your information in connection with
that matter from this man, who is thoroughly unreliable,
thoroughly untrustworthy;- he can not be believed under oath,
under any circumistances; and if he has ever made any such
statement as that to you that I ever received any such, money
for any such appointment, he has told you that which is absolutely and unqualifiedly false.
Q. Are you through? A. rYes, sir.
Q.. I have. not mentioned Mr. Gran-ger's name to you, and I
certanly, commissioner, would hesitate and would never think
of suggesting one word that would bear upon your feelings or
your famifly diffitculties? A-. I feel it, Mr. Goff.
Q. ITam here to do the best Iloan with relation to you, as a
public officer; with your private affairs I have nothing to
do; so I will have nothing to say. about your private
affairs; those are.matters for your own judgment; I certainly
shall not; I ask you. a-gain, if the chaeck that you have got from
Judd for $250 was not 'made directly payable to your order?,A.
I do not think that I ever received a check from him at all, sir.
Q. Will you. swear you did not? A. I am pi~etty sure of it;
'very sure of it; it is a good many years a-go; I -do not remember,
but I think the, note its not in my possession at present, but in the
possession of Messrs. Frazer, Shepard & Ogden; that is thie only
thing.
Q. Then did youn ever receve a check signed by Judd payable
to your order? A. No, sir; I should say never.
Q. Then,5 in what shape did you receive this money from your
son-in-law? A. I say he brought back, I think, that mu-ch Money,
from the $500.
Q.And that note has never been paid? A. No, si1r.
-.It has never been paid? A. No, sir.
Q. You n ever sued on it? A. No; I think it is a forgery.
Q. You never attempted to prove it? A. Oh, -no.
Q. You never sued Mr. Judd for that note? A.. No.
Q. M1r. Judd is a well-known merchant in the cifty? WA. I doi'l
know him, sir.
Q. You know him? A. I don't know him; exce~pt my son-ndaiw.,was worki~ng theme, and getting $6 or $7 a. week.
U     ~78




1618
Q.   ym uaid tis note as you  By gven to you by  nr sn-i
law, and signed by Judd, a wholesale produce merchant in this
city, to whom was the note payable? A. The note was payable
to the order of my son-in law, Granger.
Q. Did he indorse it to anyone? A. He put his indorsement
on the back of it; I should be very glad to produce the note, and
give it to you.
Q. Then the note passed into your possession? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How soon was that note payable, after you got it? A.
Thirty days after.
Q. When was your son married? A. He was married on the
31st of December, 1887.
Q. And at the expiration of 30 days, did you present that
note for payment? A. The note was made payable, I think,
at my place of business. 
Q. Did you transfer the note for payment? A. No.
Q. Did you have the note protested? A. No, sir; never had
it protested. 
Q. Did you ever send a demand to Mr. Judd to pay that
note? A. I think I had no communication with him at all.
Q. And the fact then remains, that you paid out money upon
a promissory note made by a wholesale produce merchant of
this city, and it has laid in your possession since 1887, and
you have made no effort to collect it; is it so or.not? A. No;
it is not true, because I stated to you that note is a forgery,
and does not contain his signature.  -
Q. Did you ever go to him about it? A. No; because I knew
there is a hundred other such cases.
Q. You paid out money on that note? A. I paid it to my
son-in-law.           '
Q. When did you discover he was a forger? A. Within four
weeks after he was married
Q. That was within the 30 days? -A. Yes.
Q. Did you discover that note was forged?  A I did.
Q. How? A. Because he himself told me.
Q. He himself admitted it to you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You did not make any effort to find out whether he told
the truth or not? A. No, sir.
Q. It has laid in your hands ever since? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And after the 30 days, you kept him in your business for
how many years? A. Never in my business at alL
Q. You kept him about you so many years? A. He was in
my house.,
Q. For how many years? A. I told you for six years; I kept
that man for his own sake, and his wife's sake, and ohildren's
sake, and after six years I had to abandon it.,........~~~~~~~ 




Q. Did he ever do any business transation for you in six
years? A. Not one, sir.
Q. Who delivered to you the cheek made by August Dux? A.
I never heard of such a name.
Q. Did you ever hear of Dux, the butcher? A. No,,ir
Q. Up on Eighth avenue? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever receive a check from him? A Not to my
kinowiedge.
Q. Will you swear you did not? A. I will
Q. Positively? A.Positively.
Q. Did you ever appoint a man on the police force of tbe
name of Dux? A, Not to my knowledge.
Q. Does your memory fail you,there again? AL I am not
supposed to remember the nmmes of the men I have appointed
in nine years in the departmean, but I say this, if you will
permit me, Mr. Goff -
Q All right? A I have the letters of iindorsement for every
appointment that I have made since I have been in the police
department, connected with the papers, and if you will give me
any cases that you require, I will produce those letters so that
you may have them yourself to look at them.
Q. You always insisted upon that-getting letters? A. I
have letters of indorsement generally from the people in whose
employ they were.
Q. Even after it was announced it would cost so much money
for the appointment, you insisted upon letters of recommendation; did you? A. To whom?
Q. To everybody? A. I never knew of any such fact
Q. Will you swear it never occurred? A. I know since the
history of the police department for 40 years, there has been
rumors in the air of that fact.
Q. You heard rumors? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You never heard rumors concerning yourself? W. Never
heard one.
Q. In your duties as police commissioner, did you ever run
down those rumors since you have been in the board? A No.
Q. They were not worthy of consideration? A. I do not say
that; I have no personal knowledge of anything of that kind,
and for me to undertake tf excuse the entire board of commissioners, and 4,000 police officers, that would be very foolish.
Q. You heard rumors of corruption, of men having to pay for
positions? A. I say there has been rumors in existence for
40 years.
Q Did you ever hear anyone say it? A. To me, personally?




,620


Q. Yes. A. I swear I did not; I do not thfnk any man ever
spoke to me about it.
Q. Did you ever see it in the newspapers? A. Yes; I have
seen it in the newspapers.
Q. And isn't it a fact that they existed'since you were In the
police board? A. All the time since then.
Q. And since you have been in the board these rumors have
been pretty persistent in their circulation? A. I don't know
any more than yourself; I should guess they always continued so.
Q. And you, nor none of your fellow commissioners have ever
taken a step to investigate the truth or the falsity of these
rumors that men had to pay for appointment; I am asking you
a fact, sir; did you? A. I do not recollect anything of that kind.
Q. Has it ever been brought up and discussed? A. By our
board?
Q. By your police board; has it ever been brought up and discussed in the executive sessions of the board? A. Never, sir.
Q. Never heard it mentioned? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know whether your brother commissioners heard
similar rumors? A. I have no knowledge of it.
Q. You sat in the board, day after day, and you never brought
it to your brother commissioners' attention?  A. As to the
rumors?
Q. Ye. A. No; I suppose they would hear as much as I did.!AFPIERNOON SESSION.
John McClave restmes the stand.
Direct examination (continued) by Mr. Goff:
Q. You have your check-books for the pension fund printed in
numerical rotation? A. Yes.
Q. And your books are made continuing in numerical number
from one book to another? A. Yes, sir; that is right
Q. In your system of auditing and checking accounts, you
compare your return vouchers with the bills rendered, do you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The affidavits and sworn statements rendered? A. Yes.
Q. And the number of your checks that you had in consecutive
order, in comparing these accounts, don't you? A. Yes, sir; that
is correct
Q. And when your vouchers are returned from the bank, do you
take your vouchers, and go over the payments that you have
made, checking each payment, with the vouchers returned from




(621


the bank?. That is done by the treasurer's bookkeeper, Mr.
George B. Gott, who has been there 22 years.
Q. Who has control or personal charge of these check-books?
A. The treasurer's bookkeeper, Mr. Gott; the payments are made
under the direction of the board, and all checks are signed by
the treasurer, and countersigned by the chief clerk, and treasurer's bookkeeper.
Q. And the checks being made, are drawn by the treasurer, it
will follow that the treasurer has the check-book in his possession? A. Excepting to sign the checks; yes, sir.
Q. What? A After they are signed by the chief clerk and
treasurer's bookkeeper, they are brought to me for my signature;
I am personally responsible for it, and my bond is $480,000.
0.  a am not questioning that, sir? A. The payments are all
made under the direction of the board of police commissioner,
the checkb are drawn by the bookkeeper, and signed by him, and
brought to m. for _iy signature, he takes them back, and when
they come back again he checks them with his bank-book, and
we have a lot of those vouchers and can find them, without any
trouble.
Q. Your stubs show the names of the payees of each check?
A. Yes, sir; about 1,200 of those pay vouchers are paid quarterly,
each three months.
Q. I call your attention to the stub No. 33,486, and ask to whose
order that check was drawn? A. Where is it?
Q. On top, sir. A. I do not know just what those figures are;
if you permit me to ask the bookkeeper's clerk, he will know;
that seems to me "A. M."
Q. "All." A. I don't know what that means.
Q. I am asking the treasurer of the police board now. A. I
don't really know what that means; I never have seen it before;
and the bookkeeper himself, I should rather fancy, it means all
checks are drawa on that bank.
Q. Don't fancy. A. Well - is it the Bank of North America?
Q. Bank of North America, yes; treasurer's office? A. Yes
Q. Now, I ask you, on stub No. 23,487, the word "stubs"
appears on that? A. There don't seem to be any amount there;
I rather fancy no check was drawn.
Q. I want to know where the check that was attached to this
stub has gone; what was done with it? A. I can not tell you;
that I don't know.
Q. I am asking the treasurer of the police board to explain, if
he can, where those checks are; what was done with them? A.
Mr. Goff, that reads "All;" that on this page; yes, "All this page
not used;" that would seem to explain it.  -   -..




C22


&. Where are the checks  A. They have not been used.
Q.Where are they? A. Really, T could not tell you; if
any checks of that kind have been use4, we would have
wuichers for it; I say now, positively, that no check has emfr
bben drawn for any of those numrubers specified there; and I
take it for granted from that fact.
q.   show you the next page, the same number, the same
wrnrds, "All stubs on this page not used-2, 4, 5 checks? A.
Tlht account was niarked dlosed, at some timle before that;
Aey would not draw any checks if the account had been cosked.
Q. Let us see? A. That is in 1890.
Q thMs is Deembier 30, 1890? A. Yes,sir.
Q. From check Nox 33,485, incelusive, to cheek No. 35,500,
wh3db make 2, 4, 5, 10, 15, 16 checks? A. Yes, sir.
Q. According to the numbers here? A. Yes, sir.
Q What I want to know is, Mr. MicCave, that, Inasmuch
alshem were 16 checks, in this book, unused, why were they
mit drmtwn in fthe ordinary way it some payee? 'A. upposing
afte mooutnt had been closed, what would be the nears~ty of
Urawig tllehm?
Q. If Uxe axmonnt had beeo cdosed-?   The ammto'nt had been
diosed.
Q Th'e acxornt has been dosed? W COektan y; the Bank of
Worth  America account has beenm closed there; you have got
your pass-book there; that explains that very fully, Mr. Goff;
w'e would not draw any checks on an aoco'unt that bai been
closed and fther was no money in the bank.
By Senator Cantor:
Itwas the end ot thedchek-book, was It not?     X Yes;
the end of the cheek-book.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. If the acocomt had been closed, the last cheek biung
No. 33,484, in this check-book that I have shown you, how
ta ot, that a new book, a new chek-~book, was opened in the
same ba-nk, commencing with 33,501? A. Well, is that after the
date -
Q. I dount know abomut the date? A. If you will permit me
to refer to the deposit-book, which shows just exaotly; the
account was olosed in the Bank of North America, which, I
think, Is some three years ago, or about, that yoti will find
That there is no check drawn after that time in that bank, and
if there are some two or three checks in a book there, and it
I mmeI do"wn there that the checks were not used Ia Ijat




623


book, and they opened more afterward; I can not understand,
except the check-book was about out, and they got a new checkbook, and may have      enced it
Q. The last check was:3,484? A. And this 33,581?
Q. Yes; what has become of the blank checks? A. They have
not been used; that is a1; they are marked "not used," and
your pass-book would sh w that.
Q. I want to know, Mr Mollave-you, as a treasurer of a
public department, to expldn how it is that blank checks should
be allowed to disappear? A. Mr. Gof, I want to say to you
that I hardly think that an business m, b    men; that if,
when they got to the tail end of the book, and then had their
bank-book balanced, they might take the three or four cheok.
and use them for waste japer, marking on the stub just what
was done with them; t is marked on them       they were
not  used; I   would   ike  to  reiterate  distinctly  that
neither directly nor indir ecly have I ever used one penny of
the police money in any way, shape or maimer for any of my
personal acoonts; if you  ll permit me to make that statement
over again; and I chllege you or any other man living to
show any other fact; I ax under bond foi $480,000 to the city
for the payment of the  ice department; I am under direction
to. pay the policemen; th< checks are drawn by the treasurer's
bookkeeper, and when, he signs those checks, and brings them
to me, I sign them; he     harge of the detail work; and I
would like to have you  t them on the stand; I could not take a
dollar, if I wanted to, wiitiut having all these other people join
with me and aiding me.
Q. Do you know any of the cheeks belonging to the stub in
question were destroyed? A. Personally, I have no knowledge
of that; and I prefer th, a you ask the reasurer's bookkeeper
about that; he would lkno  more particularly about that; but it
they hate ever been used, Mr. Goff, you would have them in the
return checks from the bank
By Mr. Bradley:
Q. Did I understand t  upon the ceasing of one account there,
you opened a new aooount in another bank? A. No, sir.
Q. Or is that a        oontination of the same aocount'? A Thoae
appear all to be in the  te bank, in the Bank of North America;
the account in the Bank  North America was closed, I think,
under the direction of th board, some four years ago; at that
time, there were some ru ors as to its finncial position, and the
board of commissioners ireoted the treasurer to take out the
money there was there and put it into the Importers and
Traders' Bank, which wa done.




624


Q. And in opening this check-book, you started with a new
/ een number? A. With new numbera
By Mr. Goff:
Qf. In the same bank; the only potft I want to get light upon
for the committee is, whether or no, it is a proper practice for
a public department in this city that the blank checks should
te allowed in the hands of any person excepting responsible
officens of that departmnent? A. No, sir; it is not; they woud
not -
Q. They might be? A. They would have to forge three oi four
signatures
Q. Forgeries have been committed before?  ~. Yes; that is
true; but we would get it back again; if a forged check went
there, we would get it back among our vouchers
Q. By the way, speaking of that department and treasury, T
might as well touch upon that matter now; there is an annual
appropriation made to that department every year? A. Yes,' sir.
Q. By the board of e- ate and apportionment?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell what tie increase of that apportionment has
been  ince your term of treasurer of the board? A. Well, it
has not been very much; I have been treasurer there for aboul
nine years, and I think that the appropriation last ye. was
about $5,000,000; about $4,950,000 of that was amounts fixed by
the statute law of the State; the balance of it was for supplieh
and alterations, and repais, and Such things as that; I wcald
state this: I can get at tfat, I think, better; I have handled, as
Ereasurer, since I have been in the department, nine years and
four months, abot $56,400,000, if you divide thiat in that time;
itlke about $5,200,000 last year, it would about cover it.
Q. The disbursements of the department are not subject to
asy auditing officer, but some officer in that department? A.
you mean now in reference to the supply -
Q. The whole fund? A. In reference to the whole fund, of
course you understand that the great bulk of that fund goes for
the payment of the uniformed members of the force, and we have
what is known as time clerks and extension clerks, and sick-time
clerks, and all that sort of thing, and each one has his differen,
branches, and filling out the p'ay-roll, and certifies to the accuracy
of that fIect; and then there is a treasurer's bookkeeper, and h,
goes over all the aiccounts in detail, and puts his check on it, as
to wheher correct or not; after that is done, a check is made for
that pay-roll, and the captain takes it away, and a duplicate
copy is sent to the comptroller, and it balances with the aomnp
troller on the 15th of each month.                 -




625
Q. Ther ae na o atcoots or claims submitted to the omptroller
before they are paid? A. Yes; election accounts are paid by
the comptroller.
Q. Outside of the election accounts? A. Well, there is nothing
there, except alterations, and repairs, and horse feed.
Q. Whatever there is there, the department is its own auditing
officer, so far as the disbursements are concerned? A. Will you
permit me to explain, the chairman of the committee on supplies is an auditing officer.
Q. He is a member of the department? A. He is a member of
the department; it is certified through him by the clerk, who is
the clerk of the chairman of the committee on supplies, Mr. Gay;
those bills are then brought before the board for final action; the
statement is read to the board, the bills are examined by a member of the board, and then, upon resolution, the treasure is
directed to pay the separate amounts, and it is approved and
indorsed on the back of it, a duplicate copy for the comptroller,
one for ourselves as our own voucher, one sent down to the
comptroller, and one we keep for ourselves, and on the 15th of
the month, we balance the accounts with the comptroller, to see
whether both agree.
Q. What I wish you to state to the committee is this; if it be a
fact, that outside of your own police department, there is no
auditor to pass upon your claims or accounts before being paid?
A. Well, the comptroller is virtually an auditor, because we have
to send him
Q. But you send to him after the payment is made? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. I want to know if-there is any auditing officer outside of
your department, before the payment is made? A. I don't know,
unless you call the commissioners of accounts;, they keep examining the axcounts all the time, and they/have vouchers.
Q. They aome from time to time to examine the accounts? A.
Yes, sir; the comptroller having looked over the record, sends it
to tihe commissioner of accounts; and the comptroller and commisaioner of accounts keep in their books an account precisely
the same, as we keep in our books at police headquarters; and
on the 15th of each month, we transmit the accounts to each
one and see if they agree.
Q. Are you aware there is, in the police department, an official
called an auditor? A. Yes; an auditor.
Q. And that the auditor is instructed by the law as well as by
the comptroller, to audit all accounts from the other departments
of the city, before being paid, sent to him? A. I do not know,
whether or not you could call him the auditor; the auditor sends
L.       79




1626
us up this moeand he cha~rges up the money before It Is sent
Q. That is what Imean;the money issent to Yousa~yrda
burse it, according to what you deem righit and proper 'under
your own rules? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What I want to get at is, there is no coatrxilling officer outside of your department to interpose between yourself and the
payment of whatever bills you think proper? A.. Well, I should
say that the comptroller himself was an auditor; I should say the
conmmissioners of accounts were auditors in the ease; and I should
say the general system we have
By Chairman Lexow:
Q.The question is, before the payment Is made, whether there
is anybody who examines youar aAccoumts and passes upon them
before the payment is made? A. Excepting the members of the
police departinenit, the dterks, and chief clerks, a~nd all those., I
think~ not; but they go back to the comptroller afterward.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. 'So, that practically speaking, your department has Its own
men, and for its own purposes disburse about $5,000,000 a year,
without any auditing officer Interfering between or before th6
paymrents had been made? A. You may put it in that shape, if
you Chose.
Q. Is it not a fact? A. In the first place, I want to say tha~t
almost all this entire amount Is fixed by law of the State; it Is
siniply a mathemstiiol cakuilation. -
By Chairman lexow:
Q. That is a fact, isn't it; there Is no auditing offloer before
you make the payments? A. I -think the treasurer's bookkeeper
to 'an auditing officer.
Q. Outside of the department? A. No; not outside of the
department,.unless you call the comptroller an auditn  of fleer.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. So far as the comptroller Is concoerned, he sends you every
m~onth one-twelfth of the appropriation? A.. Yes, sir.
Q. lHe doe not see -the details of that one-twelfth before it Is
sent? A. No; it is charged to the committee appropriation.
Q. You draw for that one-twelfth every month? A.. The
comptroller has in his possession the amioumts, appropriated by
ike board of estimates and appropriation in detail; now, for




fusance, say he has $5,000,000 or $5,200,000 approprafeed fv pay
tie members of the force, and he draws his check for one-twelfth
of that amount, and we credit, and take it to pay our pole; the
same account
Q. And you spend that one-twelfth yourself, as a department
without any further parlay with the comptroller? A. Yes, ir;
in conformity with the law.
Q. I am not asking that question at all; I want to gpb the
fact, without the law, as it stands? A. Yes.
Q. And that is pursued every month during the year? A
Yes; they took it some years ago, and put it in the hands of the
chamberlin, and then put it back again.
By Senator OSxton:
Q No officer has anthing to do. with the expenditire of
money outside the police board? A. Yes.
Q. After the appropriation is once made by the board of
apportionment, there is no officer, outside the police board, can
control the etxenditure of the money? A. No; nothing except
the report that we have to send to the comptroller
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You send it after the expenditure? A Ye.  -
Q. Before the expenditure are you accountable to anybody?
A. No, sir; except we have to certify to the amount; I say that
in the department that all the money that is expended, there
are seven or eight different ones, connected with the department, to certify to the different branches that amount before
it comes to the treasurer; you can call it an audit; the audit is
kept by the treasurer's bookkeeper.               -
By Senator Saxton:
Q. The men in the department are under the charge of the
police commissioners? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And so, as matter of fact, after the money is procured; no
Offioer has the auditing of it, excepting members of the police
board? A. That is right, sir. 
By Mr. Gooff
Q. After you sent an account to the comptroller each month,
do you send him details? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Duplicate vouchers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that ends that transaction? A. That ends that transaction; and he sends us back a balance according to his books,
if they agree.




;628


Q. That ends tle trasaction? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, in regard to the matter - we might as well speal of
it now-will you please state to the committee how many sulcommittees are in existence on the police board, and their
drties? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nicoll.-We have got all that on the record.
Chairman Lexow. —I think Commissioner Martin testified to
that, but if you want the facts out again -
Mr. Goff.- Of course, I had not the pleasure of being here; however, it will do no harm, I think.
The Witness.- Commissioner McLean is the chairman of pensions; he has been the chairman of the committee on pensions
for six year    In other words, he examines all applioants
for pensions, and recommends to the board as to whether or not
a pension should be granted to that one. 
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. Is he the sole member of that committee?  A He has abaso
lute control of it
Q. He is the only member of it? A. The others are members
of that committee, but they don't take any part in it. He makes
the report under the law; the board of police commissioners are
a board of trustees of the pension fund, and all the reports in
connection with that matter ar made to Commissioner McLean as
chairman of that committee.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. He is the whole committee himself? A. Substantially, yes;
but he brings those reports before the board of police commissioners acting as a board of trustees and has it acted upon by
the board of trustees; I think that is one ease; and the next case
is the chairman of the committee on supplies, which is Commissioner Sheehan, and he has the charge of the purchasing of the
supplies, and the altering and repairing account; and there is
the chairman of the committee on elections; I have been the chairman of the committee on elections ever since I have been in the
department, for nine years
By Mr. Goff:.
Q. Any other committee of which you are eairman? 'A No,
uir; I think not
Q. Some committee has control of contracts?  A  All ontracta
ieder the law have to be given out by public letting.
Q. By publication? A. Yes, sir.




629


Q Do you know of any ontracts given out not by publication?
A. I do; for some expenses of election; under the law they were
asked to allow expenditures, owing to shortness of time we had.
Q. Any other times? A. There may have been some; but I do
not recall them. 
Q. Some small things I suppose that the commissioners feel
they have to have done in a hurry? A. Well, the question of
election expenses is not very small.
Q. But it has to be done rapidly? A. Yes; it has to be done
rapidly; in that case the law gives t permission to go before the
board of aldermen and with the concurrence of three-fourths
vote, approved by the mayor, the commissioners have the privilege of purchasing; and in that case the chairman of the com
mittee on supplies writes and gets estimates from different parties
dealing in that material and takes the least of them.
Q. You can say that the election matters are really the only
matters that the commissioners ask the board of Jldermen to
award contracts without publication or without public competition? A. I think that is all; there might have beenQ. How is the contract about the building of the steamboat
Patrol? A. That was awarded by contract, sir; you mean the
old Patrol, or the new one?
Q. I mean the new one. A. I think it was
Q. Awarded how? A. By public letting.
Q. By competition? A. Yes, sir; $52,000, I Think, was the
price.
Q. By competition? A. Yes; I tink so.
Q. You say that contract was awarded by publication and by
competition? A. That is my recollection of it; I know we had
a number of bids.
Q. Will you give me the name of the person who bid on that
contract -the building of the Patrol? A. I do not know that
I can recall the names particularly.,
Q. You can recall firms? A. The firm that built the General
Meigs for the United States government was one of the parties;
they put in a bid; I think that bid was $68,000.
Q. For the building of the new steamboat Patrol? A. Yes,
Patrol; there were three or four others besides them; and they
ran along $60,000 and $62,000, and the Maryland Steel Works
offered to build it for $52,000, and they got it
Q. Wras that put in after competition? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much did the Patrol cost? A. Fifty-two ahousand
dollars.
Q. Who built the Patrol? A. The Maryland steel Works, at
Sparrow Point.




630. Don't you kmow that the contraet was awarded without
aderfidng or oampetition? A. Thai is not true, sir.
Q. Was there ever a resolution of the board of aldermen passed
with reference to the steamboat Patrol, dispensing with the publicatio of the eontct, and asking for bids? A. If there wasn't,
what?. Was there ever a resolution of the board of aldermen passed
dispensing with the publication first, and competition of that
contract? A. I said, Mr. Goff, to you, that my recollection of it
is, that it did not require that, because it was given out and advertised for public letting.
Q. Will you answer my question? A. I am trying to answer it.
Q. Can you state if, to your knowledge, the board of aldermen
passed a resolution under the law, as you have stated it, empowering the board of police commissioners to award thb.t. contract for
the building of the steamboat Patrol without public competition
or advertisement of that contract  A. I did not say that they
By Chairman Lexow:
Q.Will you answer yes or no; we will get through much
quicker in the end? A. I am askingQ Do you recollect whether they did or not? A. My recolleotion is that it was given out by public contract.
Q. Do you recollect, Mr. Commissioner, whether or not application was made to the board of aldermen to dispense with any
public bidding? A. No, sir; I don't recollect about it.
Q. Have you any positive recollection on that subject? A. My
reollection is that the bids and propositions were brought about
by public letting; I may be mistaken about that.
Q. You may be mistaken about that? A. Yes, I may be; it
may be the board of aldermen gave us privilege to purchase without; but we had four or five bids.
Q Can you state that the board of police ever advertised that 
contract for competition for the building of that steamboat? A.
I have stated that I don't recollect positively about that; but
that is my recollection.
Q. You don't recollect? A. That is my recollection.
Q. Your recollection inclmies to the belief that it was awarded
by private letting; isn't that a fact? A. I remember that wehad five or six different bids there in connection with it; the
Maryland Steel Works was $62,000 and they ran up to $68,000;
my recollection is that those bids were brought in by the fact
hat it was publicly advertised, but I may be misLaken aboat that;




631


it may be poslble that the board of aldermen ware rebuetaW  h
permit us to purchase without letting
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. Do you remember whether there was a publie advertitfe
of the bid? A. I don't recall that
Q. You remember there were several bids; but you dont lkowr
whether it was let or advertising? A. No, sir; I want to state
things perfectly accurate....- ---
By Mr. Goff:
Q. I ask you point blank if it is not a fact that the board of
police requested the board of aldermen to pass a resolution dis
pensing with the advertisement of the contract? A. It is poa
bible.
Q. Don't you know as a fact? A. No; but if that waso I
was a party to it
Q. How long is it ago? A. It is not very long; I thinE
within a year.
Q. Don't you think an item of such importance as the expenditure of $52,000 for the building of a steamboat would fasten
itself on your memory somewhat? A. I tell you now what my
recollection is about it
Q. That is what I have been trying to get at? A. That we
did advertise; if you have evidence of the fact that we did not
advertise I am  mistaken, that the board of alderpen had
granted that permission.
Q. I want your recollection of it? A. I have given you my
best recollection,
Q. Can you state to the committee if there was anything
especial about the awarding of such contract that left it open
in your recollection now to be awarded by private bid? A. No,
sir; there wasn't anything irregular about it in any way.
Q. I did not say anything irregular?. A. Was there anything
special i
Q. That is, no special ieason for awarding that contract? A.
Excepting as a question of perhaps having received a number
of bids in reference to the cost of it, and finding one was so
much lower than any of the rest, it may have been possible
that the board thought it wise to get permission to take that
lowest bid.
Q. Will you state that those bids were received after adiver
tisement? A. No, I would not say that; because there is a little
doubt in my mind.




632
Q. If they were not to see after advertisement how did they
come to be received privately? A. They were not received,
privately.
Q. If the public did not know that there was to be a competition
for the building of the steamboat Patrol, how is it five w:r six
persons put in bids? A. In cases of that kind, the chairman of
the committee on supplies communicates with everybody almost
in that line of business, and the commissioners went aboard the
General Meigs, which seemed to be about the kind of boat
we wanted, and examined it carefully, and had the builder of the
Meigs, give an estimate what they would finish and alter that
for, and that bid I think was $68,000; the beard of estimates
had only appropriated $55,000 for that purpose, and consequently
we could not buy it, so got the very best bid, and got the American Steel ieople to bid $52,000, and they claim that they lost
$10,000 on it
Q. Is this the situation, that after the board of commissioners
had private communications? A. No private commuications at
all; we did not have any private communications at all.
Q. That after the commissioners by private communications
obtained private bids for the building of a steamboat that the
board appealed to the board of aldermen for authority to award
that to private contract without public competition is that the
fact? A. I want to-there is nothing private about it; after
the chairman of the committee on supplies brings to the board of
police commissioners such a report, and a kind of record it made
on the minutes, and it is published in the newspaper.
Q. I have used the term published for the great mass of people
outside of the executive session of the police department commissioners; there are only four of you, and you are not the
public; now, I ask the question to be repeated again?
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. Won't the record of the department show whar was done;
this seems to take up time? A. Well, with the understanding
that Mr. Goff understands that I make the statement that there
was nothing private about it; there was no private communication: it was of public and open board in the board meeting; it is
possible the board of aldermen may have given us that privilege;
the bid was $10,000 lower than any other bid we could get.
Q. Now, speaking of contracts of election matters, what are
those contracts? A. The contracts are for the stationery, or the
necessary paraphernalia, in conldrling thle election, such as the
books of registration, and the instructions to the inspectors,
N




what is known as the mainal, and the circulars that are put up
in German and Italian and English
Q. You know just exactly what you have to furnish inspt
and other officials, don't you? A. Yes, sir; it is advertised and
given out by public contract.
Q. I understand you to say that these matters were awarded
by private contract - election matters? A. Oh, no; you don't
understand -me correctly; I did not make that statement; I say
that the balance are usually purchased from private parties,
without public letting, owing to the fact that we have only
six days, under the law, after the filing of nominations to have
from twelve to fifteen millions of ballots printed, and we have no
time to advertise them.
Q. And the private letting has gone to one firm for several
years? A. Yes; because he was the lowest bidder.
Q. Anything else connected with the election nmachiney that
it awarded by private contract? A. I don't recall anytbing else,
Q. Who puts up the election booths? A. The small election
booths?
Q. Yes. A. We have not bought in any since the year when
the ballot law was passed; we had occasion to tuy five or six
thousand of them; Mr. Voorhees was the chairman of the committee on supplies, and he secured them.
Q. Who supplies those booths? A. Some man in Brooklyn
made them; I don't remember his name; if I heard his name, I
should remember it, but I don't recall it just at the moment
Q. Did the American Lumber Company ever furnish any of
those election machinery matters? A. No, sir.
Q. Did they ever furnish anything to the department for the
election machinery? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know anything about the American Lumber Company? A. Is that the company that a man of the name of
Grant was in, from Philadelphla? I don't know them personally.
Q. It is the company of which Sam Cox, the son, is manager.
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know any lumber company around One Hundred and
Twenty-third street and Avenue A that furnished any lumber
or other material to the police department for anything? A. I
don't think they furnished a dollar's worth; I make that statement that they never did; I think if they had I would have
recollected it
Q. Do you remember the building of these polling-booths in
streets where quarters can not be obtained in private houses?
AL That is what they call portable buildings?
X,   X   80




634
BJ. eas?    Yeas, sIr; I recollect those very well.'
W. Who built those? A. Well, I don't just recall his name;
but I know about where his place is; it is on Eighth avenue, about
1ibirtieth street; he has been in the business there a great many
year, and the price he charged is $100 apiece for them.
Q. Do you know how much they cost to produce? A. I am a
lumber dealer,. and I have 30 odd years experience, and can
make some crleulation, and I don't think- it is possible to make
$10 apiece on them; I don't think you could.
Q. What is his name-Lynch? A. No, sir; that is not his
name; John Lynch is a lumber dealer right across the way from
me.
Q. Do you use his trucks frequently? A. Never in my life.
Q. No furnishing of lumber to Mr. Crimmnins' contract? Whose
trucks carried the material out of the yards? A. My own.
Q You furnished the lumber to the Crimmins' constract? A
Yes, sir; John D. Orimmins; I furnished the lumber to him.
Q. He buys quite frequently from you? A. Yes.
Q. And you also furnish lumber to the New York Elevated
Railroad. A. I did for the time I was the lowest bidder; I have
not sold them much for two or three year; they have got it
down so low I can not touch them~
Q. Were you in the department when Jordan L. Mott furnished
plumbing in the department? A. I don't know tht he furnished
much; he sells some to the department now.
Q. Does he sell them any now? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much? A. We did not use very ninuh; probably the
whole amount don't amount td more than $3,000 or $4,000 a year,
Q. When did Jordan L. Mott have a three or four thousand dolk
lar account with your department, during the last four or five
years? A. I should think two or three times
Q. Give every person furnishing plumbing work?!!YLr. Higgins furnished some.
Q. A good deal, didn't he? A No.
Q. He put in all the stoves? KA Hre puf Int an estimate for
them to the committee on supplies, and it amounted to $140 or
$150.!
Q. He never had anything to do with the department umtil he
married your daughter? A. No, sir.
Q. He was a journeyman plumber, wasn't he? A. No; he had
been in business on Fourth avenue; h'e has been in business for
lhmself 16 years; he succeede his father; he has been in bnsi*
tess in Fourth avenue between Twentysixth a-id Twenty.
seventh streets.              _ --- --- -----




Q. And   p to that time you did not know htm as furnii'ng
contract wrkfok for t  city? A. No, sir.
Q. After he married your daughter he blossomed oAt as a ooF
tcactor?  A. He is not a contractor; he did not suWppl the department, I should not say over $2,000; in the oourse of the year, ani
that is very largely made up around election time when they
have these little stoves in the booths and he put in an estimate,
and he was lower, something like,$2.50; that didn't amount to
enough for public competition.
Q And you as treasurer of that board, you passed upon your
son-in-law's vouchers and accounts? A. By recommendation of
the chairman of the committee on supplies; I do not think there
is any crime in it either, as long as it is fair.
Q You regard it as entirely proper? A. Absolutely faiT, rir.
Q. You recognize the existence of that law? A. He takes no
advantage of the fact; he is a business man.
Q. You recognize the existence of the law prohibiting an offier
being interested or when any of his family; you recognize the
existence of that law prohibiting any city official or member of
his family from being interested in city contracts? A I do not
think there is any such law as that; I think the law isQ. Wrould it surprise you to be told there is? A. I think you
have got it a little wrong.
Q. Would it surprise you to be told there was such a law?
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nicoll.- It would surprise everybody. The law is that n*
officer of the city government shall be interested in a city cor4
tract. There is nothing about his mother, or sister, or cousin
or his aunt 
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Then, if there be not anything about the sister, or mloaut
or aunt in the law, there ought to be.
Mr. Nicoll.- Then appeal to this committee.
Mr. Goff.-That is what we are doing.
Mr. Nicoll.-It gives great scope for legislation.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. In May, 1887, how many years had yen been police oommim
sloner; I have forgotten the date? A. I was appointed first oa
the 24th of November, 1884.
Q You had been three years then? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you live then? A. I think I lived at 15 West
Seventy-second street; that is my recollection of it


lb




63S0
'  When you were appointed? A I rather think so; it may
have been I was at Forty-seventh street; it was about the time
I moved to Seventy-second street.
Q. In 1887 you bought the house 156 West Seventy-second
street for $55,000? A. No; I did not.
Q. When did you buy it? A. No; I did not, either.
Q. When; you have got things a little mixed up? A. I boughf
it in 1883.
Q. For $55,000? A. No; Ipaid $44,000.
Q. You mean 156 West Seventy-second street? A. Yes; E
told you what I got in the selling of it; I lived at 124 West
Seventy-second street; you have got the selling time, I guess.
Q. Didn't you take a mortgage on that house for $45,000 when
you sold it? A. No.
Q. Didn't you take a mortgage on this? A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Did you sell it outright? A. House 124 West Seventyz
second street had a mortgage of $45,000 on it, held by the New
York Life Insurance Company.
Q. That is the one you are living in now? A. Yes.
Q. What is the price of that, altogether? A. Seventy-seven
thousand dollars.
Q. And when did you buy your place up in Connecticut? A:
I bought it a year ago last Friday.
Q. How much did you pay for that? A. That cost me between
$50,000 and $55,000.
Q. Did you ever say that place cost you in the neighborhood
of $130,000 altogether? A. I never made any such statement
to any living soul.
Q. Do you know Mr. Parks, of Hass Brothers? A. What is
his business; William A.,Park, do you mean?
Mr. Nicoll.- Spell it, please.
Mr. McClave.- I think I understand Mr. Goff. You say Mr.
Park. You said Park Brothers. I do not know such people.
Q. I said Park, working with Haas Brothers? A. I dofft
know him; I have never seen him.
Q. You mean the party that decorated your house? A. It is
D. S. Hess & Company; Mr. Park is with them.
Q You know Park now? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you bought that house for $82,000? AW. I don't say so
i Q. What is the figure? A. Seventy thousand dollars.
Q. And yet you bought that house for $70,000 away in 1892,
wasn't it? A. Yes; that is right; 1892.
Q. And what year did you buy your place in Connecticut T M
I bought it within about a year.
Q. In 1893, was it? A. Yes, sir.


~




637


Q. How was your business n 1894? A. The nature of my
business?
Q. How much did. you have in the lumber business? A. I had
about $500,000.
Q. That year? A. Yes.
Q. What was your loss Chai year? AL I don't think I had any
loss at all.
Q. Hadn't you $11,000 loss that year? A. Oh, no.
Q. You say your books will not show that?  A. They will not
show anything of the kind.
Q. You have a yearly balance I presume of your account?
A. Yes, sir; I told you what I think about that; I think that if
you could call upon the adjusters to examine the relics of the
books which were left from the fire showing the profits of my
business for the year 1892, you would find it was upwards of
$100,000, not a loss of $11,000.
Q. That is, the relics of your books? A. Yes; from the fire of
1892.
Q. I understand when you were examined on the question
today that they were all destroyed? A. Not all of them.
Q. The vouchers were destroyed? A. These books of 1892
were in the safe at the time of the fire in the back office; they
were an old set of books that had been closed up in 1892; a new
set of books were opened in September, and when they came to
make an adjustment of that loss it was necessary to get those
books to get their figures; according to their own statement at
that time they showed my profit to be $113,000.
Q. Was that the year you went to California? A. No, sir; I
think that was only three years ago; I went to California about
fou or five years ago.
Q. In whose private car did you go? A. I never rode in one in
my life.
Q. Did you go as a guest of any one? A. No, sir; bought my
tickets, and paid my way.
Q. Who accompanied you? A. My wife and five children.
Q. Who conducted your business while you were away? A. I
had three sons, one 37, another 26 and the other 23 years old in
my office.
Q. Did they conduct your business? A. Yes, sir; they are fully
competent to do it too.
Q. Do you know a man by the name of Joe Cohen? A. I have
no recollection of such a name.. Did you ever appoint a ma; of that name on the police




, 638


fiace? AXIwould not like to say I have or have not; I doagI
renembier a name of that kind.
Q. You can not reunember the name of any one that you
appointed by that name? A. I can not recall them; I suppose I
have appointed a thousand Dim ainoe I have been in the department.
Q By the way, co ~issioner, as to ife number of appointments, each commissioner has a share allortted to him, hasn't he?
A. Under a sort of custom that has been in the department for a
number of years they sort of rotate about making their appointments.
Q. Each commissioner Is assigned a number ot appointments?
A. Suppose you had a vacancy of roundsman, we would have
t~e same numxber.
Q. You divided up? A. There is no direct understanding, but
ft is informally understood; it is a matter of fairuess that they
dxply rotate in making nominations.
Q. It is practically so is it? A. Practically so.
Q. You make your requisitions on the civil service commisMoners. for 100 men? A. That would give 150 names.
Q. You would make a requisition for a hundred men? a   I
sulppose so.
Q. How is that hundred disposed of? A. That would give ThO
names to make the selection of 100 from.
Q. What system did you adopt in selecting the 100 from the
iO? A.. Well the system that I adopt as a rule, for instance,
supposing there is a mnan upon that list, and he COmeta  v
uscommended by somebody I know, or by employers in business
as being a worthy man and has reason to belleve he would make
a worthy ofticer I then take that man before the boacd ot WHA9ae
eoInmmisssiners, and state that he is on the eligible lis, his percentage in so and so, and he is a candidate for appointment, and
they examine him, and if there Is no objection to him a vote
is taken and he is appointed.
Q. Are you inhluenced by his pererentage on the list or by Mis
'ecomnmendation? 9A. Well, there Is *amt lfttle variation on that
list; for instance, suppose you take a hundred n Ime I do nmot
think you will find a varlatlos in a hundred names, of three
per cent. according to their iethg t
Q After you use 100 of the 1W names what do yon do whean
fIe next requisition comes?  A. We notify the civil service
board of the fact of the appointment of the 100, and when we
'MU for the othe  st that 5) comes back to us agein.
4 T But yen do not appoint out of that 50 until you Vt a new
hundred 'wfth that 50? A. That Is right, sir.




639
i. If there be INO eligible 'names sent to you by the civil
service c&Jn.nIssloners you appoint 100 out of thiat 150; why don't
you exhaust the remaining 50 before you make the re miiig
requisition? A. Because they won't allow us to do it under the
Civil Service Law.
Q. Will1 you point out a rule that would prevent your doing
it? A. There is in t~he board of police department, and I recall
It~ very distinctly because the question has arisen withibi three
or four weeks; the civil service examiner has given us Ian official
Opinion that when the number required by the requisAition had
lieen filled, that we could take -no further names from that
requisition; that if we required anything additional to that we
must make a new requisition, and they would send as a new
lis; that Is the opinion of the civil service board.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Then Mr. McClave, those 50 -that were not appointed out
of the first requisition may be carried on from one requisi-tioui
to another, and not a single one of those 50 at any time be
appoitLted; is that a fact? A. Such A thing could not possibly be;
it is hardly possibly.
Q. It is possible? A. Yes, such a thing is possible; if you want
my opinion of the Civil Service Law I do not hesitate to give it
to you.
Q. To who-m do applicants or appointments, to the position
of piatrohu~an first apply? A. Sc6ine to the commissioners and
some to the civil service examining board.
Q.Do they not apply to the individual corm~msioners? A.Some of them to individual commissioners with letters of intro.
duction from one we know miaking applioation; last year I think
all told there. were 1,200 applied and got 200.
Q.Isn't that application addresed to some individual e-nsinissionet' ini the first place?' A. Yes, sir.
Q. kSo that parties who had recomimendations 'to you, their
applcations would be addressed to Hon. John McClave? A.
Yes; I take it for granted it is so with the other commissionereb
Q. Thatis afact so far asyou know? A. So far aslIknow.
Q. What do you do with it when that application is received?
~.Which, the letters.?
Q. No, the aplication? A. The application Is in the form of
a letter, one or mnore letters coming to the conmmiss~ioners asking
that Oportun ity may be given to the applicant to enter hito a
competitive examination for the position of patrolman; the comn.
zxalnrthen examines him as to his ag, height, general cow~
diti-on, and If he has reasons to believe that he would make a




640
proper applicant for the police force, he then has hhm write a
setter in his own hand-writing, making application; he fills up
a blank which is prepared by the department and then goes to
the surgeons for physical examination; they meet every Monday for that purpose; the surgeons, after they examine him, they
certify by certificate if he is all right or not; if he is not all
right, they reject him; if he is all right, they make an affidavit
to that effect; theu he is certified to by five men who have
known him for not less than five years; after that is done, these
papers are filed with the civil service board, and we hear nothing
from them unless they come upon the list.
Q. Did you ever receive a check from Captain Max Schmittberger? A. No, sir: why should I do that?
Q. Did you? A. No, sir; never in my life.
Q. You never received a check from him or any other person?. No, sir, and I challenge you or any other person to prove it;
I don't know why you throw out an insinuation in reference to
that.
By Mr. Goff.- I do not see any reason for your becoming
Indignant about it.! Senator Saxton.- Do you regard that as an insinuation?
Mr. Nicoll. —Yes; the whole course of this counsel has been
one long insinuation without an atom of proof.
Witness.- I will answer your question, however, by-saying
absolutely and unqualifiedly, no; I suppose that is what you want?
Chairman Lexow.- We can not control the tone of the voice
wod the exact wording.
Mr. Nicoll.- Can not you control your own counsel?
Chairman Lexow. —Yes, bult we can not tell him, how to holioe
his words. 
Witness —  I want to say that I never recommended Captain
Behmittberger for appointment; lie was not recommended by me.
Q. I know he wasn't; in other words you did not appoint him?
AL I had nothing to do wit[ him excepting to vote for him, on
the recommendation of Mr. Voorhis.
Q. Mr. Voorhis appointed him? i. Yes, sir; lie recommended
him, and I thought he was a very good man.
Q. Yo; did appoint Captain Price? t   Yes, sr.
Q. And Captain Westervelt? AL Yes, sir; I think I dild. And Captain Martens? A:. Yes, sir.
Q. And Captain Straus? A. Yes, sir.
i Q. And Captain Stephenson? A. Yes, sir
Q. Five captains? A. That takes us back 10 years; yeB, sEC.
Q. Did you take into consideration fhe polities of the gentlfe
en named, in appointing the capts? A. Will you allow mw
b refer to memoranda?,^ 




Yes sir; cerWa*~.
Mr. INicoll- Did you appoint Caiptain Westerveft, or (Conmml
sIoner ftendh? A.. I don't remember exatly,, it iis, a good while
sgo; munt be eight or nine yeax~s ago; I don't just remember; 
tiink I recommended hibut I amn not auxe a-bout that; I am
sori7 to detain you, Mr. Goff; you asked mie about who, Oa~ptain
Price?
Q~ An~yof the captains Ihave mentioned,? A. In the caseof
Oaptain Price, he was recommended to me first by 35 business
maen, in Ihe nineteenth prechict, taking in such stores as Arnold
-Cometable & Co., Stearns Brothers, anid Park & Tilford, and all,
the bhottels and theaters.
q~ Amy other houses Mi the precinct that recommended his
aippointment? A. A very large nuinber of business houses i
the precinct, all large business, men.
Q. What in the nature of the business generally? A. Dry.~
goods generally; no liquor saloons or anything of tbhat kind.
Q. There were not? A. No% sir; then by Mr. McClellanI president of the Mutual Bank; Charles H. Taintor; also the president of
the Garfield Bank; and Mr. Waamamaker.
Q. What is, Mr. Wan.anaer's business? A.. 1n the lumber
busimes; he Is president of the Republican Association of theSe'vnt~e&tii Am~embly district, and Mr. Jacobus and Mr. Gresbain,
president of the Republican Assoiation in the Fifteenrt district;
Judge Beach; Mr. Bellamy, sertr     fthe Repu~blican cornQ. There are no liquor stores or any other kind of houses? X.
Q. When did you make that memorandum? X~ I say no
iqmt stores, no; I said business houses; they were all business
houses; I would be very glad to show you the petition nd letters;
I have them.
Q.When did you make flixt? AL. 1 made this along thin
winter soetime.
Q. In the app~oin~ihnent of C~aptain Price, did politicail copsiderations prervail? A. Well, I say the only possible way -in which I
could tell Just what a man's politicail views -.;,ere at 1i, if I was
looking after that, would be guided by the natrue of the letters,
Whicih mmie in reference to him.
Q. You mean to say, you did nrot know what hJs politics were
before you qpovinted him? A. I had reaso to believe that he
was always a Republican; altironrgh he had never spoken to m'a
about his politics.
4. Do You know that hie is a member of the Democratic club In
his diftrict A.. No, Sir.
L.       81




642
Q. io'tq you lnow he Is a memnber of the Pequod Club? A.
No, sir.
Q Didn't you hear it? Ai I saw something in the paper
about it
Q. You appointed his as a Republican? A. Yes, and f guess
he is one, without a doubt; I have understood that he claimed it
was a social elub and not a political club.
Q. Optain Prioe claimed-?  A. In a general sense, Captain
Prioe was knownf for a great many years as being a rabid, dyed
in the wool Republican; Mr. Broofield is one of the strongest
indorsers for appointment
Q. Captain Price, who is a member of the Pequod Club, a!tammay Hall organization of the Thirteenth district, is a
Republican of the most pronounced and rabid stripe? A. He
fonrerly was.
Q. Ten he has been converted?   A. I elive he votes the
Republican ticket now; that is my honest conviction.
Q. Captain Westervelt? A. He is another old time Republica
under Captain Williams.
Q Do you know that he belongs to the Pequod Club? A. No,
sir.
Q. Do you know that he is a member of a Democratic club of
the Tammany organization? A. No, sir.
Q. This is the first time you heard it? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Have you his appointment there? A. I don't think so; I
think there are 17 out of the 35 Republicans to-day; I believe
half of the police captains of the city vote the Republican ticket;
have done so in the past; what they may be in the future, I
don't know.
Q. They are supposed to treat their Tammany conferees the
same as you do yours in your department? A. In what respect
do you mean?
Q. You said the other day you always voted with your Tammany commissioners? A. I said I did not believe it would blc a
part of my duty as a commissioner to go in that board as an
obstructionist, without any ground for it; I had never known any
of my coleagues to do an unfair thing.
Mr. Goff.-I would like to suspend the examination of the
witness, at this point, if the committee please.
ChMairman Lexow. —Very well; will Mr. Mcelave kindly step
Jown for the present




643
(hanger, Gideao, being alled as a witees, dey swwan md
ramined, testified as follows:
Q You are a son-inlaww of Ma MeCkre? Ai I waa; I docH
know whether I am yei.
Q You are the man to whom he referred here today? A. I
don't know; I did not hear him refer to anything.
Q. He referred to a man who had married his daughter, and
who had marital difficulties in his family? A. I am that person;
I am the only one whom I know of in thai regard.
Q He referred to a man by the name of Granger who married
his daughter and then 30 days after his marriage showed himself
to be a forger and scoundrel; are you that man? A. I am the
only Granger who married into the MoClave family.
Q. You drw a line at the forger and sooundrel part of it? A
yes, sir.
Q When did you marry Miss Mclave? A. Married before
-)r. Sanders on the 31st day of December, 1887.
Q. How old were you then? A. Twenty-four, I think.
Q. Were you a resident of the city of New York, at that time?
iL Yes, sir.
Q. What was your business?    A At that time?
Q. Yes, sir. A. Produce commission business
Q. Where employed? A. I was in business for myseif at 145
West street
Q. Were you alone in business or connected with anybody
ese? A. I was alone, but had desk room with George W. Judd,
wks is still in business
Q. How long did you remain in connection with Mr. Judd? T 
inatil 1889, I think.
Q. Mr. McOlave has sworn here to-day that he never received a
check signed by George H. Judd for the sum of $250, payable to
hib order; do you know whether such statement is true or not 
KAL I know he received a check.
Q. From Judd? A. Yea, sir; but I don't know whether it was
ktr $250 or $200; it was either one or the other.
Q. How do you know he received that check? A. Because e
took it up to him.
Q. Did you see Mr. Judd write the check? A. Yes, sir —no,
sir; Mr. Judd did not write the check; he signed it; the bookkeeper, W. P. Dixon, wrote it
Q. To whose order was that check made payable? A. John
MeClave.
Q. Do you know what that check was for? A. It was either
$250 or $200.
Q. Do you know what the consideration was; what was the
money paid for; did Mr. Judd owe Mr. McOlave money? A. No;
I don't think Mr. Judd did; I did.




644


-  Was taf clieck in payment of a debf that you owed fto Mu
Mfftave? A. No, sir; because the check was from Mr. JA&di
Q What was the check for? AL Well -
Senator O'Connor. —Do you know what it was for t
A. Well, it was for- 
Q Do you know? A. No, sir; I don't know.
Senator Bradley. —You were just going to say what It was
for, and you drew bacdL A. No; I don't know what it was for.
Q. Had Mr. Judd and Mr. Moeave any connection in relation
bo that check, or any other check? A. No, sir.
Q. What did you say to Mr. McClave, when you handed him
tlat check? A. I said, " Here is the money that we promised to
pay you."
Q. That who promised to pay? A. That "we;" I think I used
ite word.
QO Whom do you mean by "we?" LA I meant myself, and a
man by the name of Cooper.
Q Who was Cooper? A. He was a man that was connected
with us in business in a certain way.
Q. How did Cooper come to owe him any money? A. I don't
think Cooper did owe him any money; in fact, I know he did not
Q. Why did you include Cooper, as here is the money "we
promised you?" A. Because I was indebted to Cooper, I thin,
more than anything else
Q You were indebted to Cooper? A. Yes, sir.
i Q Was Cooper connected with Judd? A. No, sir.
Q. Where did Cooper live? A. Whitehouse, New Jersey.
Q. Was Cooper an applicant to get on the police force? X.
Yes, sir.
Q. Was that check which you handed to Mr. McClave in con.
sideration of Cooper's getting on the police force? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The amount of money? A. No, sir; I don't think it was.
Q. Did he pay anything, as far as you know, to get on the
police force? A. Yes, sir; I know that he did.
Q. How much did he pay? A. He paid $250.
Q. To whom did he pay it? A. He gave me $50 of it
Q. To whom did he give the other portion? A. He gave the
other part to W. P. Dixon, our bookkeeper.
Q What did W. P. Dixon do with it? A. Deposited in the
bank to the credit of George W. Judd.
Q. And then George W. Judd drew his check to Mr. MoClave's
order? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In equivalent of the money deposited by the bookkeeper?. I don't know whether it was in equivalent to that or not;   It was to represent it? A. It was the same amount.




645
V. Donlt you know that was the understanding? X. Yes, gri
I think it was
Q. It was the understanding that the money should be paid in
that way, was it not? A. That was the understanding.
Q. And you gave it to Mr. McClave, stating to him that "there
is the money that he is to get according to arrangement? A.
No, sir; I took the check up myself; I said to him that I was
sorry I could not get the money before, but business was that
way that I could not.
Q. Did Mr. Cooper get his appointment? A. Yes, sir; he is on
the force now.
Q. Do you know what precinct he is in? "A No, sir.
Q Did you ever see him after? A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know how soon his appointment was made aftr this
money was paid? A. No; I could not say that
Q. Did McClave say anything to you when you handed him the
cheek? A. No, sir; I don't think he did; I know he did not.
Q. Do you know where that check is? A. Well, there are
some men, I believe, looking for it at George W. Judd's store.
Senator Bradley. —Do you know where it is? A. No, sir.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Where did you last see it? A When I left Judd's.
Q. Had it returned from McClave when you last saw it? A.
Yes, sir.
Q As a voucher? A. Yes, sir.
Q Did you see Mr. McClave's signature on the back of that
check? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In Judd's possession  A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether Mr. McClave deposited that'check in
his bank or in any of his banks? A. Yes, sir; of course he
deposited it in his bank.
Q. Do you know a man by the name of August Dux, a butcher?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Nine hundred and fifteen Eighth avenue? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. McClave has sworn here to-day on the stand that he
never received a check from August Dni; can you state whether
that is true or untrue? A. I know the existence of a check from
August Dux for $300, and Mr. McClave's signature on it
Q. Who delivered that check from August Dux to Mr. McClave?
A. George Richards, now dead.
Q. Who was he? A. I think Mr. McClave will remember, himself, of Dux coming to his house one evening and inquiring about
the check.
Q. After the check was given? A. Yes, sir.




646


Q. Mr. MClave has sworn here to-day that he did not know of
such a man by the name of August Dux; is that true or untrue?
A. Well, he may have forgotten; I know that he knows the man,
because I introduced him to him myself, iv his front parlor.
Q. Do you know what bank that check was drawn upon? A.
Fifth Avenue Bank.
Q. Do you know the date of it? A. May 17th.
Q. Do you know the date of it? A. May 17th; I don't know
the year.
Q. Do you know the number of it? A. Two hundred and fifteen, blue letters.
Senator Lexow. —That is the number of the check I
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. When did you last see it? A. Two weeks ago.
Q. In whose possession? A. A man by the name of Dorsey.
Q. Did you recognize Mr. McClave's signature on that check?
A. Yes, sir; I told him he better burn it up.
Q. Told who? A. Told Do eey. 
Q. You apprehended this investigation going on, didn't you?
A. Well, yes; I apprehended it, but then the amount of the check
and what he told me it was for, I did not quite believe it was so.
Q. Did you recognize Mr. McOlave's endorsement on the baok
of the check? A. Yes, sir; I did.
Q. Who handed that check to Mr. MoClave? A. Well, that 1
can't tell who handed that to him.
Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. McOlave about the
subject-matter of that check, about the $300? A. Yes, sir; I told
him that this man who had to pay this $300 was either a brother
or brother-in-law of Mr. Dux and he was a man who could illafford to loose the money.                    i
Q. Was the man who put utp the $300 a candidate for appointment on the police force? A. Yes, sir.
Senator O'Connor.-The man wh put up the money or Mr.
Dux? A. It was Mr. Dux's check, and the man wh< was to be
atpointed was either Mr. Duxs brother or brother-in-law, which
I don't know.
Q. He was an applicant for a place on the police force? A.
Yes.                             I
Senator Lexow. —Is it a man by the name of Phillips? A. I
don't think it was
Q. Who was the man who put up the money,? A. I don't
know, and I don't know that the man was put on the police force.
Q. What took place between you and Mr. McOlave on thik




647


matter? A. He said he didn't think the money iad Veen put up;
I said I am quite positive that it has been pat up; it was put up
In George Richards' hands; Mr. McOlave said, "If Dux put up any
money in George Richards' hands, he was a damn fool."
Q. Who was George Richards, at that time? A. George
Richards, I think, was a roundsman or patrolman 'n the police
department 
Q. Was he attached to headquarters or to any precinct? A.
Well, at the time that I had the conversation with Mr. McClave
about it, I think he was doing patrol duty, or was assigned as a
ward detective, or something like that
Q. Do you know anything about whether the man who put up
the money was appointed or not? A. I don't think that he was.
Q. Was the name of that man from New Jersey, while I think
of it, Frederick G. Cook? A. No, sir; Cooper.
Q. Frederick G. Cooper? A. Yes, sir.
Senator Saxton.- Did the witness state when that transactioo
was? A. In 1888, latter part of January, 1888
Q. Soon after yon were married? A. Yes, sir.
Senator Lexo. —H  ow long after you were married? A
Within four weeks; I was married the last day of the month, 1887,
the last day of the year.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Did you ever hear this George Richards called McClave's
orderly? A. Yes sir; called frequently.
Q. He used to do duty at MoClave's office at headquarters? A.
Well, he did the same duty there that his other man does there
now.
1OWW.
Q. Who is the man now? A. Barnes
Q. Does he stand at the door? A. He has a desk outside at
the entrance of Mr. Gant's office.
Q. Who is Mr. Grant? A. Mr. McClave' private secretary.
Q. What is his first name? A. Oharles Grant
Q. Do you.know if that George Richards ever made a promise
sory note to Mr. MoOlave? A. Yes, sir; he did.
Q Do you remember the amount? A. It is $350, I think.
Q. What was that for? A. George Richards told me it was
for an appointment, but I afterwards found it was for betting on
horse races; I don't mean Mr. McOlave's betting, I mean Richards'
betting. 
Q. But he gave the note; he got the money from Mr MoClave?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who indorsed that note? A. This man Dorsey.




648


Q. Has he that note in his possession? AL Yes, dsr; at 1ll
West Fifty-fourth street
Q. Did you ever see a check from Max Schmittberger, in MA
MoClave's possession? A. No, sir; I did not see a check.
Q. Do you know anything about it? A. I heard there was one.
Q. Did you ever see one? A. NC, sir.
Q. Did you ever hear that he made a check to the order of
Riehard Mott? A. Yes, sir.
Q. For what amount? A. Three thousand dollars.
Q. Do you remember when that was made? A. Eighteen hundred and eighty-nine, I think.
Q. Do you remember any particular occaeion, was it when
SBcimittberger was appointed?
Mr. Nicoll objects to this line of inquiry, as not within the
scope of the investigation or resolution.
Senator Lexow.-If that is the only objection, we wil pass
upon it very quickly by overruling it.  We have a right to
Inquire into any question on corruption, and this comes within
the general head of corruption, if it is true,
By Mr. Goff:
Q Will you state all you liow about that check of Captain
Schmittberger? A. That is all I know; that day that he was
appointed, or rather I don't know whether he was appointed
that day or not; I know the day that he was asigned to the first
precinct, steamboat squad, pier A; he passed by my store and I
congratulated him; it was the following week that I heard
rumors uptown.- 
Mr. Nicoll object.
Q. We do not want to hear rumors? A That is all I ]mow.
SenatCr Lexow.-Then the objection will be sustained.
Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mott in reference to the matter? A.
No, sir.
Q. Did you ever talk with Mr. McClave in reference to the matter? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you mean to say that you did not hand that check to Mr.
McClave? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You did not? A. No, sir; I did not
Q DoI you know an officer by the name of Joe Cohn? A. No,
sir.
Q. Did you know him? A. No, sir; I know his brother Sol
Oohn.
Q. You know of his brother Joe? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know of his application to get on the police force?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you state what you know abowt it?. I know bh vaa
appointed.               l.                      ---




649
4%  nything else? AX I Klow it oost him  205 to lie appointed.
Q. To whom was that money pald? A. Well, $30 of it went to
tte doctoWs room; when he went up to lte dotorrsa some way
or otIhe; he was half m inch too smal
By Mr. Niooll
Q. Did you see the 30 paid? X Ye, sir; it was pad fo me
and I sent it up to hieaquuarterf
By Mr. Goffi
Q.. It was not sent to Mr. MoCave though, the 30? 'A. o, sir.
Q. What was the balance of the asm? A. One hundred and
seenty-five was the balance
Q. Where did that go? A. Tat was left at police keadquarters in an envelope
Q Who left it tihee? A. I did.
Q. With whom did you leave it?   A. I left it on George
Rihards' desk.
Q. Were there any directions on the envelope? A. No, sir;
only "important and valuable"
Q. Did George Richards know to whom to deliver that envelope? A. He told me afterward he gave it to Mr. Melave,
whether he did or not, I do not know.
Q. Did you go there with your envelope with any underitading as to why you should take it to police headquarters? A.
Well, this man was not up to the requirements of law to be made
a policeman.
Q. You mean physical requirements, size? A. Yes, sir; he was
under height; I think there was half an inch difference or something.
Q. Was he not rejected at first on that account? A. Yes.
Q. That was before the $30 went up? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And after the $30 went to the surgeon, he grew half an
inch higher? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did yonl converse with any persoin about the failure of
Cohn to pass on account of his inability to reach the standard
height? A. No, sir; only his brother; his brother said if it could
be fixed, he was willing to pay the money.
Q. Was there anything said to you about your knowledge of
police methods, or his knowledge of police methods that he
9ught to know better than to expect the surgeon to pass him when
he was under size, except for a consideration? A I don't know
-I know that something was said about ought to know better
thaa go before the doctors, if he was under size, but I don't think
anything was said about fixing the business at all; in fact I know
there was not
I  '   82




650
Q. How did you come to get the $175? X Elis brother Joe
Oohn gave it to me.
Q. What did he give it to you for? A, Because he had been
appointed after he passed the doctors.
Q. Did he give it to you for your own use? A. No, sir.
Q. For whose use did he give it to you? A. I don't know
whose use he gave it to me for; it was given as the moneySenator Bradley. —Did he say when he gave it to you, what
did he say? A. He said, "Here is the money that you say it will
cost."
Q. Did he understand that you had relations with Commissioner McClave to secure the appointment
Mr. Nicoll objects.
Q. Did you say anything to him, or he to you about to whom
this money should go or your relations with Mr. MoOlave? A.
No, sir; I told him that father had said that if he passed the
doctors successfully, that he would appoint him.
Q. Was there anything said about money? A. Between McClave and myself?
Q. No, between yourself and Mr. Cohn, the brother? A. He
said, " Whatever it costs, I will fix."
Q. Did you'tell him that there would be a cost? A. No, sir.
Q. How did he know there would be a cost? A. It is a foregone conclusion, I guess.
Q. It is an established custom and practice, is that it?
Mr. Nicoll.- I move to strike out any such assertion by counsel
as that.
Senator Lexow.-Does the witness know anything about the
habits and customs of the police board or police department; can
you speak with reference to the customs and habits pertaining
there? A. No, I cannot speak; all I know is that it is an open
fact; it is generally known through the community that it takes
so much money to be a policeman.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Do you remember the appointment of a man by the name
of Edward McDonald, who was foreman of the Erie docks? A.
I do not think he was appointed, he was not the last time I heard
from him.
Q. Is there anything about his application for appointment?
A. In money matters, you mean.
Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes, sir; United States Senator Lapham's son,
Charley Lapham, of Canandaigua, was the backer for him, through
John Raines, who was Congressman, who was at one time member of the Senate; I had several letters from them about him,
and he also failed to pass the doctors, and finally did
Q. Was Mr. Mcrlave here in New York at that time, or in




651
tlIffornIa? X. When McDonald first made his application, he
was in California; his son, Steve McClave, was the man who made
the application for McDonald, but on that application McDonald
did not pass.
Q. Was there any money accompanjying that application 
1. No, sir.
Q. And he did not pass? A. No, sir; he did not pass on that
application.
Q. Did he make any other application? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any money accompanying the second appllcation? A. There was a draft sent from Canandaigua for $50.
Q. Who sent the draft? A. C. B. Lapham.
Q. This gentleman you have spoken of? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that to be used for? A. The doctors, as I understood it.
Q. What became of that draft-when you say doctors, you
mean the police surgeon? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What became of the draft? A. I don't know what has
become of that draft
Q. When did you last see it? A. Well, I saw the draft onoe,
er d that was the day it came.
Q. In the letter? A. In the letter.,
Q. What did you do with it? A. I sent it to, I thin, a man
by the name of Kelly.
Q. Was the draft made payable to you? A. Yes, sir; the
draft was made payable to me.
Q. What did you send it to Kelly for? A. Kelly was understood to be the go-between in the Nineteenth Assembly district
Q. Between him and the man who made the appointment? A.
Between him and the alderman or commissioners or whoever it is
who makes the appointment
Q. Was that the first transaction you ever had with Kelly?
A. That was the first I ever had with Kelly.
Q. How do you know he was the go-between? A. Rumor.
Q. You sent him a draft made payable to your order on the
strength of the rumor that he was the go-between? A. No; I
met him and spoke to him.
Q. About this business of appointments? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you knew to whom you were sending the draft? A. Yes,
sir; I knew who it was going to all right.
Q. What became of it? A. I never saw the draft from that
day to this.
Q. Do you know what became of McDonald'? A. I don't know
whether he is on the force or not.
Q. Who was the surgeon who first examined McDonald, do you
remember the name? A. No, sir; I don't remember the name&




652
Q If I mentioned It to you, do you think you would recognize
it? A. No; I don't think I would; I never knew any of the
names of the doctors or anything, excepting a very few.
By Senator Lexow:
<. Were you, at that time, in the nusiness of procuring appointments? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you, at that time, doing a good deal of that business?
A. No, sir; I was not; any more than anybody else; occupying the
position at that time that I did, the people knew I was connected
with Mr. McClare, and they thought I might be able to help them,
and more or less I did have applicants come to me, but when
they 'spoke about money matters, I would refer them to Mr.
McClave, and say he was not a man like that
Senator Bradley.- I understood you to say that you gave $50
draft to Kelly yourself? A. No, sir; I sent it to him by mail.
Senator O'Connor. — Did you have a talk with Mr. McOlave
about these appointments? A. I spoke to him in regard to his
appointment
Q. Did he give you to understand, at any time, that it would
require money to appoint him? A. No; quite the contrary.
Senator Lexow.-  Did you ever have any understanding with
Mr. McClave on any question of that kind? A. No, sir.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. But you handed him these several amounts of money
always, or checks or whatever came to you? A. I did not say
that I handed Mr. McClave any money; I have not said so right
along.
Q. Did you? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever hand him any money?  L. Only money I owed
him.
Q. You testified you handed him checks? A. I hardly think so,
Mr. Goff.
Q. You put in an envelope $175? A Yes, sir; I left it on
George Richards' desk in McClave's office.
Senator O'Connor. —What did you leave it there for; that $17
on Richards' desk? A. Well, I left it there because I was told
that was the proper place to leave it
Q. Did you know where it was going to; who was going to
finally receive it? A. I was told by Richards, as I said before,
that it was for —
Mr. Nicoll.-I object to this testimony, especially as Mr,
Biehards is dead; it is not right.




653


Mr. Goff.- The nain point of the Senator's question was why
did he leave the money on Richards' desk?
Q. Why did you leave it on Richards' desk? A Because I was
told to.
Q. Who told you to? A. Rird       thad t s t wa  t B it 
again -
By Senator Lexow: 
Q. You said you had given this cheek of $250 or $200 of Judd's
to Mr. McClave? A. Yes, sir; that check I did give to him myself.
Q. You gave it to him for a certain and distinet purpose? A,
Yes, sir; that check was given to Mr. McOlave.
Q. Did you not, after tha+ time, have any oommnunication or
conversation with Mr. MClave as to the appointments upon the
force? A. I do not say that I did not have conversations with
Mr. MeClave in regard to appointments on the force; yes, air;
I did.
Q. You stated a.few minuteb ago as to the question of money
when mentioned between you and Mr. Mclave, that McClave
expressed himself as being averse to money being used? A. Yes,
sir; he did.
Q. Now, you knew that you had handed Mr. McClave a ieck
for $200; did you have any conversation, subsequent conversation on the subject of the money between yao?  A No, m,
By Mr. Goff:
Q. You have recently had eonsidemble difficulty in your tftly
relations? A. Unfortunately; yes, sir.
Q. You have three children? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they are in the possession of your wife's father, of Iae
lady who was your wife, if she be divorced? A. Yes, "si
Q. You allowed the divorce to go by default? A. YeM Ai;
I did.
Q. Now, I hand you a book and ask you to state if you ever rw
that book before? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whiat is that book? A. Memorandum book of mine
Q. There is on the fly-leaf of this bookMr. Nicoll.- I want to see that book.
Mr. Goff.-I deny you the right to see that book; ft is nt
offered in evidence yet.
Senator Lexow.- Before it goes into evidence he has a rigt to
to examine the book                         i
Mr. Nicoll.- I have the right to see it before he uses it
Senator Lexow. — The court is against you Mr. Nicoel




'ty Mr. Goff:
Q I call your attention to the fly-leaf of tkis book, which says,
'signature of the owner ot this book, (Gideon Gmugxew," is that i
pour handwvritiE.? A. Yes, sir; it was at that time, 1884.
Q. You started to keep this diary in 1884? A. Yes, air.
Q. Aiid is this here, on the other leaf of the book in your handWtiLng? A. Yes, sir; at -that time.
Senaetorr Brasdqly.- Isn't it yours now? A. I write a different
heund from what I did at that time.
By Mr. Goff-:
Q. I call your attention, I can not give thue number of the page
because it is not on it, I call your attention to the lower part of
the page under the heading " cash account," to entries in lead
pencil, are thlcse your entries?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you make them at the time of the transactions they
purport to narrate. A. Well, at that time or thereabouts.
Q. I will take the first of these entries, under the name of
"Little" $250, what does that entry mean?
Mr. Nicoll.- May I not see that book now?
~~eenator Lexorw.- I understand the oounasel tas the right to use
any memorandum he please
Mr. Goff.- Certainly.
Q. What does that entuty mean? A. That It cost Little $250 to
get on the police force.
Q. Do you know his Christian name? A. No, sir.
Q. Had you anrything to do with the payment of that money in
any manner, shape or form? A. No, sir.
Q. How do you know that it cost him $250? A. Kelly told me
so.
Q. ThMis gobetween? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nioli.- I object and move to strike out the testimony as
hearsay.
Senator Lexow.- Does counsel expect to connect it?
Mr. Golf.- We will connect it
Senator Lexow.- It may go in for the present, and if not connected it will be stricken out.
Mr. O'Oinnor.- I do not know Mr. Goff, by what rule of evidence you can give the hearnay testimony of anybody: what
Kelly told this witness in my judgment, Is not competent testimony. What John Jones told Paul Brown is not evidence against
another party. It may be evidence against Paul Jones, ii certainly can not be evidence against John Smith. As far as I am
concerned, I am disposed to give the greatest Ilatitude to counsel




655


in this investigation, as I apprehend the difficulties ruder whicl
counsel labor, but at the same time we owe some duty to these
men who are under this inquiry, and we owe them the duty of
protecting thenm against rumor or hearsay of this man or that
I do not believe the evidence is competent.
Mr. Goff.- Senator, your views as a judge in a court of law
would unquestionably be sound and indisputable, but we have not
Kelly on trial, we have not Granger on trial nor have we Mr.
McClave on trial. We have here an inquiry into the very matter
alleged by Mr. McClave himself that common rumor stated that
bribery was used to secure appointments on the police force, and
in such an inquiry as this there must be a latitude, and the value
of the testimony is for you to judge of or for the Senate to act
upon. It may not be of very great value, but common rumor and
common report in a community goes to make up y, ur 'l,'.,mern
and a verdict is not to be rendered by you upon this testimony
that would send anybody to State's prison or subject anyone to a
penalty; if that were so I would not rise here to offer a word in
opposition to your remarks, but the point is here, if we stop at
the line of strict legal testimony, I respectfully say that it will
be an extremely difficult matter to get along with this investigation.
Senator O'Connor.-I agree with you in that respect, but
we must keep ourselves reasonably within the bounds, but you
say you may prove that common rumor exists in regard to the
police department, that these rumors say so and so, but when
you tend to fix upon any particular individual a charge of bribery
by hearsay, I think it is going too far. We owe them a duty as
well as we do the public, to protect them from a thing of that
kind. Now, Kelly may have lied, he may not have told the truth.
I do not think what Kelly said ought to impeach Mr. McOlave's
integrity, unless you follow it up by showing what Kelly said
is true.
Senator Lexow.-I do not understand that this testimony is
offered for any such purpose, but that it is offered for the purpose
of showing that there was a go-between, between the police
department and those who purchased their promotions or pur.
chased their places upon the force. Mr. Goff means to show that
a man by the name of Kelly made a statement to him that $250
or $300 was paid for the purpose of getting places; now, all the
counsel has got to prove afterward is -
Mr. Goff.- A member of the bar has kindly handed me a memorandum that Greenleaf says that in matters of public and general
import, neighborhood rumor is competent evidence. Here is a
writing, made at the time, and it is competent evidence within




666


those rules, for this witness to state the reasons whi~li rmX e
mmto make that writing.
Senator O'Ooanar..- If youi sbnijy wi sh to poethle exisence
of ruors against this department, I think fiscmentIn
f!IM view, as far as public rumor is concerned, It is proper and
competent
Mr. McClave..- WIl you allow me to say just one word here?
*Senator Lexow. — If the committee agree. We think counsel
will look after you better.
Mr. Mc~lave..- My counsel ts better able to take care of me
flian I am myself, but I want to say to you that this man' on the
stand here is a drunkard, a liar, a thief, and a forgver, and it tit too
bad that he should give testimony.
Senator Lexow.- You must not take advantage of the commitfee in tbls way, Mr. McClave; 'it will raise a prejudicc against you;
we pampiow to defend you as far as we cau; if you force us int9 a
pisitio~n where we can not defend you, we must take some other
0urse.
Senator O'Connor.- We must protect witnesses on the stand,
also, and we can not afford to havE aunylhing of that kind happen
here.
ky Mr. (toff~
Q.The second entry on this memorandum book, Burns, $280,
what doe that entry mean? A. Saime thing as the first; cost
thiat man $280 to get on the force
Q. I call your attention to the third entry, Cohn, $175; is that
thetanatn to which you have already twstified? A. Yes, air.
Q. About the envelope? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I call your attention to the entry, Cahill, $250, what 'is that
ftransaction? A. Getting an appointment on the police force.
Q. Do you know anything about that transaction? A. No,
air; not as far as McClave 'is concerned; the least bit in the world.
Q. About anybody else; we 4on't cewe about McClave? A. I
heard that that man there had been appointed through Conimsinr Sheehan.
Mr. Nicol'l objects. Stricken out.
Q. With whom -did you talk; you needn't state what was said;
with whom did you talk in reference to the Cahill entry? A. A
man by the'-name of Sullivan, 111 West Twenty-third street
Q. Do you knxow his first name? A. Thomas HEL
Q. What is his business? A. Liquor business.
Q. Was it from information that he gave you tht you made
Whs entry? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What Is that? A. McDonald.




657
Q. McDonald, 1370; wfiaf does that Item mean?  X That Is
the McDonald that did not get appointed.
Q. There is an item here, how did you come to make the entry?
A. Because the money was paid in; that is where the kick oame
Q The money was paid in and he did not get appointed? A.
He did not
Q. Through whose hands was the money paid in? A. Through
my hands; that is, $320 of it was —the fiftyQ. To whom did you give that? A. Direct to Mr. Kelly, Eighth
avenue.
Senator Lexow.-The same Kelly spoken of before? A. YeFs
sir.
Iy Mr. Goff:
Q. What understanding had you with Kelly as to wliat he
should do with the h'oney? A. That money he saidMr. Nicoll.-I object to this as hearsay.
Senator Lexow.-I think it leads up to something, the objeotion is overruled.
Q. What did you understand from your relations with Mr.
Kelly or your conversations with him as to what he Should do
with money? A. He said, "The way you make appointments,
your father-in-law ought to get rich pretty quilk."
Q. I call your attention to Farnsworth, $360; what does that
item refer to? A. That means for an appointment.
Q Do you know anything about that appointment? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. State to the court what you know?  A. That was done
through Congressman Raines of Canandaigua.
Q. To whom was the money paid? A. Direct to M-. McClave,
I understood.
Q. From whom did you understand that?   A. Congresmnan
Raines himself.
Mr. Nicoll.-I objet. Is it possible that the committee will
listen to a thing like that
Senator Lexow.-Inasmuch as Mr. Raines is a competent witness himself it seems to me that it is proper.
Mr. Goff.-How shall we get at this transaction unless we
surround it with circuanstances leading up?
Senator Lexow.-Why can not you call Mr. Raines, if he
refuses or declines to answer, you oan call this gentleman again
In rebuttal
Mr. Goff.-He is not within the jurisdiction now, possibly.
You may see the difficulty we might have in calling Mr. Raines.
How could we ever have discovered that Mr. Baines paid this
LA       83




money, unless bry suc~h Thsthunony as tMo laiguptte dn!
fication of ~the person. ]3Mbery can only be traced through. verj
many, man~y channels.
Senator Le&xow. — Then you take chances tbat this testimonj,
if not connected, will be stricken out
Mr. 00ff.- We have to take our chances; we a-re investigating
the thing and y ou are the judges of what you shall reject or what
you shall, receive.
Q. How did you understand that? A. I met Mr. Raines at the,
Morton House by appointment
Mr. Nicoll.- Will youir h~onor permit this conversation with,
Mr. Raines, it is purely hearsay; in the absence of the defendant.
Senator Lexow.- I think this committee will give you full latitude for cross-examination.
Mr. Nicoll.- I should be mo-st false if I permitted such testimony as this which ought to be obnoxious to memibers of Whs
committee, most of wh~oen are lawyers, to go In without somea
objection. 
Senator Lexow.- The committee will be able to sift this testi..
molly an apply the proper rules to it.
Senator cantor.- What good will it de, by striking it all out.
af turwArd?:1- 
M r. O off.- The counsel estates it is, in -the absence of the defend'
ant; wNho is the defendant?
Mr. Nicoll. — in tie. absence of Mr. McClave; you are making
the witnescs testify that Mr. Raines gave, or met him at the
Morton House to give him a sum of money to give to Mr. McClave;
I ask for the Protection accorded to any man under such circumSiat r I fC ( 5".
Mr. (jeff.- I as~k that Mr. Nicoll confine himself to the facts;
nothing has been teslified to here that Mr. Rlaines said that thifs
moeywas to gro to Mr. Mc~lave, not a word, that is Mr. Nicoll's
ow   assrinlption; whether it effects Smith, Brown, Jones or Robbison in this department, it is competent 
Senator Lexiow.- T do not think I would go any further 1n th at
matter, Mr. Goff, I think you have all you want In that matter.
Mr. Goff.- Cannot we s~how a step in this direction where
everybody covers up his tracks and sm~others his transactions.
Senator Saxton.- Would you ask us to find anything against
this police department on -the strength of what this witness said
FWnes told him.
Mr. Goft.-! Sta-ndiing alone; no.
Senator S~axton.- How are you going t~o a-id It or support It
except by the testimony of Mr. Raines himself as to what took
place with him, or what had takten place with reference to what
k"- spealks ot.




659,


Mr. Goot.- -  submit to you this questrtfo'  how if it possible
for us to discover names of persons who had direct transactions?
Senator Saxton.- This witness said that Mr. Raines told him
something with reference to a corrupt bargain between him and
the police department; that has led up to the point where you
discover that Raines may know something about this matter.
Mr. Goff.-It is not my duty or power to infringe upon what
you gentlemen may consider the proper line of examination,
but I simply suggest to you the impracticability of our reaching
a definite conclusion unless we follow it step by step.
By Senator O'Connor.-Would you consider this proper testimony; I have heard from the Metropole Hotel from a half dozen
'different people that Captain Schittberger paid $10,000 to be
made captain to the police board; would that be evidence?
Mr. Goff.- No, sir; tht forms public rumor.
Senator O'Connor.-The authority you refer to in Greenleaf,
public rumor is one thing and particular conversations is quite
another, that is not public rumor at all. I can convict by my
testimony, swear that I have been told by a dozen different
people that this captain paid $10,000; would that be evidence
against any of them?
Mr. Goff. —Would it not be proper for you after hearing that
statement at the hotel —suppose some one said that Schmittberger
paid $15,000 for his appointment, would it not be proper to put
hint on the stand and ask him who told him so and then go to
Smith and ask him who told him so and so on?
By Senator Lexow.-Yes, you have all that, you have got to
this point where he says Mr. Raines told him so.
Mr. Goff.-That is all I want to do.
By fMr Goff:
Q. Did I understand you to say that that money went through
your hands? A. No, sir; it did not.
Q. Now, I call your attention to the next item, Coleman, $515';
whit does that mean? A. Ooleman was a patrolman and he
wanted to be made roundsman. and it cost him $500 to be made
a roundsmat.
Q. State to. the ourt your knowlege of that whole transa.
tion?
Mr. Nicoll object,
Mr. Goff.- You see, gentlemen, it will be simply a question ot
physical endurance.
Senator Lexow.- Go right on Mr. Goff.




660
Q. State ID the comnnittee your knowiedge of the transa-tflae?
A. Coleman called at the house one night, Nob 124 West Sevent4,
second street                            I
Q. Whose house? A. Mr. McClavets house; I was living there
at the time, and'he asked to see Mr. MeOlave, he was busy I think
upstairs; I went down into the biliard room with him and he told
mle what he wanted done.,
Q. What did he say? A. He went ibto the billird room and
told me what he wanted done.
Mr. Nicoll.- I object to that
Senator Lexow.- That is a statement of EtwL
Mr. Nicoll.-I object to it.
Senator Lexow. — It is overruled.
Mr. Go~ff.-My learned friend is on the othetr side of the bar
saw; when he was counsel for commlisioners of accounts in this
city, investigating -
genator Lexow.- Tqhe committee has ruled with you, Mr. Goff.
Mr. Goff.- It was a question of Phillip drunk or Phillip sober.
Q. Go on about Coleman. A. He told me what he wanted done,
and I told him it would cost more than he said it would, he said,
bow much; I said, " 1Well, you ought to'go seviin hundred and fifty
to a thousand dollars," he said he couldn't go that, but would
out it in half, I said all right, do that; I said, "11Now, if you will
qgree to pay #500, go down and see Mr. McClave and he will fix
it. you;" he went down and saw kim and he is a roundaman
to-day
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. saw whom? A. Mc~lava
Q. Did you see McClave about it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did McClave agree ic do it for $500? A. I know le put up
W00 and he is P. rioiin.sndrwm to-d&uy.
By Mr. Gloff:
Q. Into whose hands did it go? A. I don't know; not In-to
mine.
Q. Do you knorw who received the money? A. Someone in the
police department got the money or he wouldn't have been made
rouindsman if he hadn't,
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. How do you know it? A. He told me that he put up $500
at headquarters; I don't say he put up any inxiy in Moclare's
hands.I
Q. D~id you have any words with Molave at all on that matter?
A. Yessir; I told him that he called there at the house to see him




661


Q. Did you tell hi  what occurred between yourself and COto
man? A. I said he wanted to be made a roundsman; I said he
was a very honest fellow - deserving chap - been on the force
seven years; I think it was seven years, and that he was well
connected, been a good officer and that things could be made all
right                          I
Q. Did you say anything to Mr. Mclave about Coleman's offer
to put up money? A. No, sir.
Q. You said everything would be all right? A. Yen, sir.
Q. What did McClave ay? A. He told me to send him down
to himn
Q. Did you see Coleman after that? A. Yes, sir; I seen him
within three weeks, and I told him to go down 'o McOlave's; I
didn't send him down.
Q. You told him you had conversed with Mla — e about his
case? A. I said that I would speak to Mr. McCave in regard to
him.
Q. And that you had spoken to him? A. That was the second
time I saw Ooleman after that.
Q. The second time, that is what I mean, did you tell Coleman
then that you had seen McClave, and that Mr. McClave told you
to send him down? A. Yes, sir.
Senator Lexow.-Did you use that expression, "Things would
be made all right?"
A. Words to that effect; I oon't know whether it was " Things
would be made all right," or "Things could be fixed all right," or
what words I did use, but substantially the same thing.
Q. Do you know whether it was those specific words  A. Nao
sir; I do not
By Mr. Goff:
Q. But that was the substance of what you said?. Yes, sir.
Q. I call your attention to an entry on the bottom of a leaf in
your diary, February what, Saturday, 22d? A. Yes, sir; that is
under 1884 year; it was on Saturday, whatever year it was; what
year it was I don't know; I didn't put the year down on most of
those memorandums; I have scratched down there that one there;
that is 1890.
Q. In other words this memorandum was constructed to run
one year only? A. Yes, sir; I got tired of keeping it
Q. I call your attention to these entries, " Went to see Dr. Nesbitt for Mr. McClave about Monahan; o. k.i '-did you make that
entry? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go to see Mr. Nesbitt? A. Yes, sir; and asked him
why It was that McDonald didn't pass, and, in fact, I knew why




662


be didn't pas, for two reasons; one was that he had disorder in
the system and bleeding piles; that I knew, anyway; that was
one of the reasons; I told Mr. McClave that, and he said, " You
go down and see if Dr. Nesbitt can not fix it."
Q. You did go and see Dr. Nesbitt? A. Yes, sir.
Q Did you tell Dr. Nesbitt what McClave had said to youn 
A. Well, I don't know whether I did or not; I know that I told
Dr. Nesbitt that I had heard that McDonald didn't pass, and [
supposed it was on account of his bleeding piles and disordered
sytem.
Q. What did Dr. Nesbitt say?
Mr. Nicoll objects.
By Senator Lexows
Q. Who is that I A. The police surgeon.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. What did Dr. Nesbttt say? A. He was objected to on Tegitimste grounds; he did have a disordered system, and did have
bleeding piles.
Q. What did Dr. Nesbitt say to you? A. Said he would do
what he could for him; for me to send him down.
Q. Again? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he go down the second time? A. I think so; I told
him to; I wrote him a letter of introduction to Dr. Nesbitt, and
gave it to McDonald.
Q. About lonahan? A. Yes, sir; that fellow there, whatever his name is.
Q. Did you ever see Monahan afterward? A. Yes, sir; I saw
him two or three times afterwards.
Q. Was Monahan appointed? A. No, sir.
Q. I call your attention to entry under date of Tuesday, 26th
of February, 1891, the lower portion of that entry; state if it is
in your handwriting? A Yes, sir; that is that Coleman business
I told you about
Q. Had an interview with Coleman, arranged for his promotion
for $500, to be put in 20 per cent., is that it? A. No, sir; two
parts, it is meant to be.
Q. That is the transaction yon have testified to? A. Yes, sir.
the only addition being the division of the money into two parts.
Q. Whar was that? A. I don't recall it now, any more than
what is on the book there, that is all.




By Senator texowt
Q You mean two installments? A. He couldn't pay the $500,
he said, at once, and he would pay some of it when he got the
appointmenit and within a few weeks after would try to raise
the rest, I believe he lives in Sullivan county and his father owns
quite a farm there if I am not mistaken about it, and it was
through him that he intended to get the balance of this money.
Q. I cal your attention to the entry the 6th of August, 1885?
A. Couldn't have been 1885; I didn't know anything about it
then.
Q. Whatever date it is, I don't know what date, I call your
attention to that entry at the bottom of the page? A. That ia
that Joe Cohn business, 1888.
Q. That is in your handwriting? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Joe Cohn passed-? A. Dr&, isn't it?
Q. XXX; what do they mean? A. Extra good.
Q What does 0. R mean? A. I don't know; I was studying
that yesterday.
Q. What does 0. K. mean? A. That he passed the doctora
Q. That is the one you have testified to? A. Yes, sir.
Senator Lexow. —We will adjourn now until half-past 10
to-morrow morning.
M. Nicoll. —I desire to ask this witness a few questions before
adjourning. I hardly think it is consistent with the fairness
and dignity of the servants of the State of New York to suddenly
interrupt the examination of one of the police commissioners of
this city by a witness of this character in the middle of the afternoon when you have his entire tale, without qualification, limitar
tion, explanation, or knowledge to the public whatever, of its real
character, to take an adjournment If you think that is the
way this proceeding ought to be conduoted, as you have frequently reminded me that I have no rights here I will bow in
submission.
Senator Lexow.- The character of the witness has been stated
according to the impression made by Commissioner McClave in
the strongest kind of terms.
Mr. Nicoll.-I will satisfy you of the chaxrater of the witness
in 10 minutes if you will give me an opportunity.
Mr. O'Connor. —Mr.  G off has not got through with the witness
yet, and it is passed the hour, we ought to take an adjournment
until to-morrow morning.
Mr. Nicoll. —The thing is all printed in the morning papers
and I am denied the right of cros-examination, 24 hours elapse
before McClave has a right to be heard and before I have an
opportunity to exaine this witness  Impressions are created




whlch can never be recalled and in all respects it strikles me that
it is not a fair thing to this man or to his family, that this man
should be allowed to slink into court in the middle of the afternoon and then tell his tale as he has told it without any questions being put to him on cross-examination. The value of this
investigation to the city and State is the conviction in the public
nmad that you have treated every one with fairness; that you
have not put up men unworthy of belief or men of good character
as unworthy of belief.
Mr. Lexow. —I do not see how we can violate every rule of
evidence. Mr. MoClave was satisfied to leave the stand; he did
it and said he would leave with pleasure, and the last witness
took his place; there was no objection made then. You will have
all the opportunity you want
Mr. Nicoll.-It is a perfect outrage.
Senator Lexow.-You cannot prove anything stronger than
Mr. McClave has stated in reference to this witness.
Mr. Nicoll.- I can, because I have the documents in my hands
Senator O'Connor.- Did not Mr. McClave characterize him as
a thief, scoundrel and forger, and do you propose to make that
good by his own confessions or documents.
Mr. Nicoll. —Not by his own confessions, I will?rove it to
the satisfaction of every reader to-morrow morning that this
man is unworthy of belief.
Senator Lexow. —It is our bounden duty to protect the witnesses as well and until you have proved to the contrary this
counmittee is going to believe he is a creditable witness.
Mr. Goff.-I think the demonstration of Mr. McClave was a
very unseemly one on the floor of this committee.
Senator Lexow. —We will adjourn until half-past 10 to-morrow
morning, May 22.
Proceedings of the fourteenth meeting of the committee, Monday, May 22, 1894, at 10:30 a. m.
Present —All of the Senate committee, and counsel on both
sides
Mr. Goff. —Mr. Chairman, I am informed that the witness on
the stand yesterday is not in court this morning, in comrpliance
with your order. I saw the witnesss myself, after the session of
the comittee yesterday, and he informed me that he would be
here sharp at half-past 10. I have had my messenger seek for
him and I have been unable to see him or find him here in oourt.
It your honor will please have him called, and if he is not here,
have the sergeantt-atrms produce him in court: we have given
tfhe rA-^"+-  ^ his business address and his residenoe; that is all
that we can do.




Chairman txow.- To Gideon Graniger In cowRt? The sergeaAI
at-anus has been instructed to produce him.
Mr. Nicoll.-I never expected this witness to cene back;  l
has now happened, is not a surprise to me or to my clients.I 
talked 'it over last night, and we agreed that. he wouild ne'v*
appear here again; he would neyer again insilt the seven gentle.
men who, represent the Senate of this State by impeaching the
lies which he commenced yesterday afternoon. This man was a
son-in-law of Mr. McClave. and only last Friday, in the interests
of his family, Mr. McClave took- the witness stand against him,
before Judge Dugro, in the Superior Court
Chairman Lexow.!- Mr. Nicoll, you will have to come to order,
if the witness Is not produced, you, will have your rem-edy, to~
move to strike out his testimony.
Mr. 'Ni1coll. — I move to strike it ouli now.
Chairman Lexow.- No; he may be produced after a while.
Mr. G'off.- It is a most remarkable statement, that Mr. Niaol
and his client, should have come to an agreement last might, that
the witness should not appear; most remarkable.
Mr. Nicoll.- I knew he would not come, and he never will comea
How long before will the chairman entertain a motion to strike
out the testimony of the witness?
Chairman Lexow.- We will first, seftrch -the city of New
York for him, and if we do not find him, we will see that the
dis~trict attorney of the county, takes the makter in. hand and get~
h im here.
Mr. Nicoll.- You will never get him here,
Senator Saxton.- That is your opinion; y~u do -not 1Vnow any.
thing about it, do you, Mr. Nicoll?
Mr. Nicoll.- Nothing but a writ of requisitioni will bring him
here.
Senator Saxton. He may he sick, or there maj be some other
reason; we can not tell why he is not here.
Mr. Nicoll. - The committee has been grossly imposed upon,
and I should think that the committee would ahoiwr my indignation, at -the way 'it has been i'mposed upon.
Chairman Lexow.~-We will be patient and ascertan the, faet,
whether we have been imposed upon, or not, and we will probably be just ais indignant as you) if we have ber'n so Imposed
upon.
Mr. Goff- Mr. Nicoll means that h~is indignation la in aPik
wickian sense.
Mr. Niwoil.-1 also call your-honor's attention to the fact that
this gentleman was Mr. Jeromnes client at one timej Mr. Jerome
appewred for him in thIs divorce proceedipq; 




Mr. doff.- tp to a certain stage of the proceedinga
Mr. Nicoll. —Up to the time when he was satisfied as to the
character of the man. He has greater knowledge of his habits
and whbereabouts than anyone else here.
fMr. Jerome.- I do not know where he is; I have given all the
knowledge that I have in reference to him.
Mr. Goff.- I am frank to say here; I do not hesitate to say it,
tat I saw him at midnight last night myself, and spoke to him
and then had his promise that he would be here faithfully this
moring.
Chairman Lexow.- Let us proceed with the testimony.
John McClave, resumed the stand, for further direct examinalion:
By Mr. Goff:
Q. I do not know that you stated definiteiy, yesterday, when
the account in the Bank of North America, was withdrawn, by
the police board? A. My recollection of that is, that I stated it
was closed about three years ago.
Q. Closed three years ago? A. Yes; and in reference to those
blank memoranda, if you will permit me to make an explanation,
I think I can convince you about those
Q. Later on we will take that? A. There was
Q. You mean the destroyed cheeks? A. Yes; what you claim
were destroyed; I can convince you that you are in error.
Q. Are all the vouchers which were drawn by you upon the
Bank of North America, at police headquarters? A. Yes, sir; all
of them.
Q. Have you got all the vouchers which you drew upon the
Bowery Bank, on youi personal account, or business account?
A. I have the vouchers, up to the time, I think, of my fire.
Q. What date was your fire? A. On the 12th of April, 1893.
Ohairman Lexow.-You mean since the fire? A. Yes; since
the fire; I think when the book was balanced, those little checks
are not kept ordinarily.
By Mr. Gofft
Q. Have you goi yo1w balik-boo  or bank-booEs of all your
accounts in the Bowery Bank, before 1893? A. Have I got
Q. Yes. A. Oh, no; I brought them down to 1889, I think,
yesterday. -.
Q. You say your vouchers from that bank were destroyed by
Wbe fire? A. Yes, sir.




Q. and your chec steiAius? A. Well, I Sate tbrougfirt Jto
yesteriay some check stubs, as far as I had ta m.
Q. I am speaking of your own personal account? AL Yes, 
as far as I had them.
Q. How far is that? 'A. I should think it was about a year
or 18 months.
Q. I mean before the fire? A. Before the fire in 1893; I think
I explained to. you yesterday, that my books of account and business from 1860, up to the time of that fire, were pretty much all
destroyed; they were in the office, which was burned at that time
Q. You kept all matters connected with your business, and
your personal account, at your office, at your lumber yard? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And they were destroyed? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then how is it that the bank pass-books were not destroyed?
A. The bank pass-book, running back to 1889, was inside of a
small steel safe, inside of the larger safe, in the front office-the
middle office -and the fire did not strike that on that account
Q. Then that escaped destruction? A. That-book; yes, sir.
Q. But your vouchers were destroyed? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you did not keep your vouchers, then, along with your
bank-book? A. Oh, no, sir; in the matter of those little cheeks,
when a book is balanced, after the book is balanced as a rule,
those checks are not kept
Q. You mean to say you did not keep the return vouchers sent
to you by your bank? A. Not after we balanced the book; not
after the book is balanced; after they are balanced and charged
off, they are of no earthly use.
Q. You stated yesterday that in a certain year, 1892, the yea
I have reference to, when I asked if you had not lost $11,000 hi
your business, that you had made $100,000 that year, is that true?
A. That is true; yes, sir.
Q. Do your books show that? A. My books; I made a stateo
ment to you yesterday; if you willQ. Do your books show that? A. If you will recall the state,
ment that IQ. No; answer the question; do your books show that you made
$100,000 in the year 1892? A. I told you, Mr. GoffQ. No; do your books show that? A. If you will permit me
to explain as to whether I have got the books or not; my books
did show that; I stated that to you yesterday; I likewise stated
to you that if you would go get any of the adjusters of the fire
insurance people, if you would go there and make an investigation of that fact, you would discover it.
Q Is this the fact, that the books which you claim showed




668


tal you made $100,000 in that year, profit, on your lumber busiess, destroyed in that fire? A. They were so destroyed.
Q. Wher was the balance of $100,000 deposited? A. In my
regular business account
Q. In what bank? A. In the Bowery Bank; you mean carrying the regular balance?
Q. Where was the account in the bank, that showed that you
had made $100,000 that year? A. They were in my tegular business account; my banking transactions in connection with my
business, as a rule, ran about $400,000 or $500,000 a year, and
the deposits that I received in connection with the sales of
material in my business were deposited in that time.
Q. You had a lumber account, a business account, in the Garield National Bank, did you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. For many years? A In the Garfield National Bank, did
you say?
Q. Yes. A. No, sir.
Q. Of any description? A. No, sir.
Chairman Lexow.- That was the building or repair account.
Q. Then all the accounts that you had for yourself, that you
call personal or private, and in relation to your busineia, were
in the Bowery Bank? A. Yes, sir.
QO And not in the  arfeld or any other bank? A. No other
bank.
Q. And there were how many accounts there? A. There were
two only.
Q Two accounts? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In making deposits in the buisness account, in the Bowery
bank, from the proceeds of your business, in what shape did they
generally come into your hands for deposit? A. They were
always in check, as a rule; there may be isolated eases where I
got a few bills, but they were generally check or notes
Q. Bills, very seldom? A. Not very often.
Q. And of course, you wrote out your deposit slips with all
your deposits? A. I never kept those.
Q. No, but the bank possesses them? A. I fancy they do.
Q. Did you ever deposit in that bank large sums of money in
bills? A. No, sir.
Q. You are clear about that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you are clear that the deposits and slips will not show
that? A. I do not think they can.
Q. Have you got any doubt about it? A. I should doubt it
very much indeed.
Q. Don't you know whether they did or not? X. I should not
think that there was any
Q. Never mind about your thoughts; I want an answer to the
question? A. I have no recollection at this time.,




669
Q. Refresh your recollection; it Is a very important matter;
will you swear that the slips of deposit in the Bowery bank, will
not show that large sums of money were deposited by you in
bills? A. What do you call large sums of money; give me some
idea about it, and I will be better able to know what you mean?
Q. Well, say 1,000? A. I would not like to say that I haw
never deposited a thousand dollars in bills in a bank; that is
very possible.
Q. Will you say you never deposited a thousand dollars in
bills in the Bowery bank, in your business account? A. No.
Q. Can you state from what firm or contractor or individual
that you have ever received $1,000 in bills in business, for lumber? A. I can, yes
Q Tell me one? A. As a ruleQ. No, not as a rule, tell me one such firm or individual? A.
From the circus people, for a number of years, they gave me $5,000
or $6,000, or $7,000 in bills
QC When did you receive money from the circus people ia
bills? A. I think the last was about two years ago.
Q. From whom did you receive the money? A. From the
Bailey & Barnum people.
Q. What individual handed it to you? A. I do not know
whether the clerk or treasurer; whoever he may be.
Q. To whom was the money handed? A. Generally to our
collector.
Q. In this case with a large sum of money in bills, do you know
to whom it was handed? A. I do not know, either my collector
or one of my sons, or a man by the name of Pat.
Q That is Pat, your messenger, Pat McLaughlin? A. Yes,
sir; Pat McLaughlin.
Q. How much in bills were handed to you? A. It is an absolute impossibility for me to recollect particularly in reference
to these matters, running along during a period of years; if you
will take the aggregate amount of my transactions there, I can
explain them to you fully.
Q. I know you can, but this is only a few years ago, and the
fact of receiving such a large mm  in bills, from a circns company, must have impressed itself upon your mind, must it not?
A. Well, I have been doing a lumber trade of about $500,000 a
year, and it is absolutely impossible for me to recollect partica
larly each of those transactions, and a man might come in-I
may have no idea of what exactly comes in, for I am only there
two hours a day at my office.
Q. You spend two hours every morning at your office? X
About two hours every morning.






670


Q. And if there was a large sum of money in bills paid lnft@
youx oiec, it would be out of the ordinary rum of business, would
it Bat? Al Ori0    rj it would be; suoh a thing might be pow
sible.
Q.Would it not be so extraordinar, that it would ints
itself upon your memory? A. If my attention was paxtioularl4
called to it.
Q. But your attention was particularly called to it, when youi
remember you got the money from the circus people? A. I
eMenber that fact..Wais -it true or not, that you received $1,00O in bills frmmi
Dailey & Barnum circus, in bills? A. Yes; more than that
Q. In billis? A. Ye,.% sir; they hiave -never paid to my recollection other than' in bills; no checks; they paid in bills; they
piaid all their bills in the bills which they took -'n -it the office,,
and ordinarily their bills ran from five to six thousand dollarss per
y-ear, and they generally paid -them all at once.
Q. During the season? A. When they were repairing anid
fling up for their circus, they would buy lumber for that purpose.
Q. That would be during the winter, would it? A. Well, whati
ever their season woufld be.
Q. Whenever they prepared for their circus season? -A. Yes,
Sir.
Q. And their place is at Bridgeport, Connecticu~t? A. Yes,
mir; but they fixed up their circus here at Madison Square Garden.
Q. And they bought lumber of you? A. Yes, air.
Q. Name me one season when that occurred? A. My rewlleo
tkon of that is, that we have had that trade right along, for a
-number of years, up to about two years ago; I thuimk it is two
years ago, when they commenced to do their work by contract.
Q. Take the year 1890; did you supply materiaJ to them in
ftat year? A. Yes, sir; I am very sure that I d14
Q. To 'What amount? A. I stated generally that the bill  M
along from about five to eight thousand do~ars
Q. For that season? A. Yes~, er; Ithiik so.
Q.What was the larges~t amount that they paid you!In Mis?
~&. Weill, I could not tell you positively ~bout that.
Q. What was -the latrgest airount o~f a bil tthat was ever ool.
%ected during that year from them? A. I thi-nk their bills never
ran larger than $8,OOO. 
Q. You say that year six or seven thousand dollars for the
whole year; was the whole bill paid at once? A. T mean the
retire transaction was made within a month or two; just while
they were fiftting up.
Q. Was the whole of their bill paid at once?. A. Yes, r~




t71


Q. And all in oash? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And always in bill? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So it would appear from your bank-books, anl — ur deposit
slips that sometime during the winter of 1889 or 1890, there were
six or seven or eight thousand dollars in bills paid by the Barnum
& Bailey circus people, which you deposited in the Bowery bank
AL Yes, I think so
Q. Do you know it? -   Do I mknow as matter of fart, tha
they gave us those bills?
Q. Yes? A. Oh, yes; they gave us bills whenevcr we sold
them lumber.
Q. I am asking about this particular transaction in 1890; did
tfhey pay you in bills in 1890? A. If I sold them amy lumber
that year, and I am very confident that I did, they paid me in,
bills.
Q. Do not say " if; you have said that that they did pay your
bills in bills? A. T have stated tc you that wt sold lumber to
the circus people there for a number of years, and that my recollection particularly is, that about two years ago, they commenced
to have their work done by contract; they-whenever we sold
any lumber they always paid their accounts in the bills, which
they took in at their office.
Q. That is very general and very vague?  A. And theatre
people generally do the same thing.
Q. Yes; but that is very general and very vague; what the
committee would like to know, is for you to get down to a certain
year; you have selected 1890, and you have stated that that year
you sold these circus people lumber to the extent of six or seven
thousand dollars; now, I ask you if they paid whatever sum they
owed you for lumber, that year in bills? A. Yes, sir; whatever
they may have owed me tialt year, they paid me in bills.
Q. And it was around Iix or seven thousand dollars?  A. I
should think it was about that
Q. And they paid you that all at once?  A. Yes, sir; they
always paid it all at one time.
Q Six or seven thousand dollar in bills at one time? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you remember making out a deposit slip for six or
seven thousand dollars? A. No; I have no recollection of that
at all.
Q. You do make out a deposit slip, do you not? A. No; I never
aid.
Q. Who does make out your deposit slip? A. My bookkeepers.
Q. Who are your bookkeepers? A. My sons.
Mr. NicolL- I do not know whether or not the air in this
court-room is oppressive to you vigorous and healthy gentlemen,




672
as it Is to me, but with tids multitude sftanding bace here, bVk&
Is very unusual in our court, with all the windows closed, there
are some of us who suffer from this bad air, and it would be a
vegy great advantage to us, if the windows oould be opened.
Q After having had a little time for reflection, can you give
as any more definitely any Information touching that transacton
with the circus people? A. I want to say to you, that I have
not given it a thought or reflection; I was not thinking of that
while I was sitting here, while Mr. Nicoll was speaking; I simply
say to you, that as matter of fact, that my business as a rule,
ran from four to five hundred thousand dollars a year, and that
I have handled since I have been treasurer of the police department, and in my business about $70,000,000, and it is impossible
br me to tell you in particular detail any transaction in conhection with that.
Q. Is it not a circumstance of such unusual occurrence to have
sx or seven thousand dollars in bills-? A. I should think —
Q. Will you please wait until I have asked my question; I
have been patient with. you; is it not a circumstance of such
unusual occurrence, to have a bill of $6,000 or $7,000 paid
In paper money by a customer of yours, for lumber, that it
would not escape your recollection? A. I would not be very
apt to recollect it.
Q. Were they so numerous as that? A. Well, no; they were
not particularly numerous, but where you are doing a business
ito that extent, transactions in which more or less money are
coming in all the time, you are not apt to remember.
Q. And the transaction of your receiving bills in so large
an amount — A. Not in proportion to the entire business; I
should not think a matter of six or seven thousand dollars was
a very large proportion.
Q. I am asking you about this particular matter, and if you
an give us any light upon that transaction of Barnum   &
Bailey, having paid you six or seven thousand dollars in bill,
during the winter of 1889 or 1890, for lumber furnished by
you, to their ciru s-is that a faat? A I have stated to you
that it was a general rule —
Q. Is tfhat a fact, or is it no   AX I told you that during
the time that we were dealing withI tibem, during those yeas,
Chat their bills ranged, as a rule, from $5,000 upwards, and
that thkey always paid the bills for them.
Q. Is it a fact that during the winter of 1889 and 1890, that
Barnum and Bailey paid you a debt that they owed you for lumbei, to the amount of $6,000 or $7,000 in bills; please answer
that question? A. I can not say positively as to the amounts
r the particular year; I simply swear as to the general fa&t'




673. Then, will you swear tht at any one transaction tliaE yS'
have received from Bamnm & Bailey a sum in gross, to the
amount of $6,000 or $7,000 in bills? A. I should think that was
true; that is to the best of my recollection.
Q. pHave you any doubt about it? A. I have no doubt about
it in my own mind.
Q. If you have any doubt about it, express it now? A I
have none; I feel confident that that is a fact
Q. You feel sure that that is the fact? A. I feel very confident, for that is my best recollection of it.
Q. It is not a recollection; it is a positive statement of fact, is
it not? A. I think I have explained to you that it is absolutely
impossible for me to go back a long number of years and remember a particular item or a particular amount; I think I have
made that statement to you, and I have said it over and overt
again, and I do not think anybody else could remember items in
that way.
Q. You have given the winter of 1889 and 1890; did you supply
them with lumber in the season of 1890 and 1891? A. I stated
to you that my recollection is that we supplied them up to about
1892.
Q. And at that time they commenced to make contracts? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And you supplied them in the winter of 1890 and 1891?
A. I think so.
Q. What was the amount of your transaction with them in the
winter of 1890 and 1891? A. My recollection of the transaction
with them is about as I have stated to you that that is the wayj
they ran.
Q. About that amo-nt? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Six or seven thousand dollars? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you receive that amount in 1890 and 1891, in bills
from them? A. I should think so.
Q. Have you any doubt about it? A. Whatever the amount
of their account was, was paid in bills.
Q. And the amount was $6,000 or $7,000? A. That is my
recollection.
Q. Was the fact that you received $6,000 or $7,000 in bills?
A. Oh, no; I have stated that.
Q. It was unusual, was it not? A. We were getting, of course,
more or less bills into the office on various accounts, but as ai
rule not in such large sums.
Q. It was unusual to receive iM& large sums as $6,000 or $7,000
in bills? A. As a rule, it was.
L.       85 




674
f    IQ Did not that fix itself, then, upon yor memory?:l  o; I
would not be apt to remember that at all
Q Your memory would be apt to slide over that? A. No; p
would not be apt to remember it.
Q. Was there a bill rendered to them by you for that amount?
A. Always; whatever the bill was.
Q. Is there anything on your records in existence that will
show that transaction? A. I can show back, I think, to the
commencement of 1892; I think we have our books from 1892 up.
Q. I am asking before 1892, when you performed the work or
supplied the lumber? A. I have stated to you that all those
books were destroyed in the fire, on April 12, 1893.
Q. Then, so far as you know, there is no book in existence, or
under your control, that will show that you received, during
the year 1890, or 1891, $6,000 or $7,000 in bills from Barnum &
Bailey's circus? A. No; we have no books back of that date.
Q. They were all destroyed? A. All destroyed in the fire.
Q. And your testimony here now is, from your recollection?
[!  Ye, sir.                I            '  -: I  '  'f
Q But you did sign whatever deposit slips were made, when
you sent that money to the bank, whatever deposit slips accompanied that money when you sent it to the bank?
Ohairman Lexow.-They are never signed, the deposit slips
are not.
Q. I mean wrote out; you wrote out the deposit slips, did you
not? A. I do not know whether I did or not, because I am not in
ithe habit of doing that; I might do it.
Q. Do you know who took that money to the bank? A. No, I
could not recollect that at all.
Q. You know that a deposit slip showing six or seven thousand
&ollars in bills, was made? A. Showing that or more or less;
there might be a lot of other money coming in, in connection
with the business, which would go in with that; I (o not think
I have made a deposit myself personally in ten years
Q. I am not asking what you did personally; do you not know,
as a business man iat a deposit slip accompanying the deposit,
showing the amnoun of coin or checks or bills? A. Yesi I know,
that
Q. You understand that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So the deposit slips made out there 'ly or on your behalf,
must show on the face, that there were so many thousand dolIars in bills? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you name another concern, besides the Barnum & Bailegy
circus, from which you received large sums of money in green
bab:ks? A. I would not undertake to state anything in conne



675'
tion with that; I rsimply meniton te name of the cius, beause
as matter of fat, when they came in with their acoount, it was a
large package, made up of one and two dollar bils, and I would
be very apt to notice that fact in that comneotion but necesmsa
ily we got in more or less bills from other concerns
Q. So now, you are getting to have a positive recolleotioni
inasmulch as you remember the denomination of the bills that
Barnum & Bailey gave you? AL No; that is not more positive
on tirt account.
Q. You have just stated it was? A. I have staed that my
attention would be more apt to be called to it, if I saw a large
package of one and two dollar bills.
Q. Was there a large package of one and two dollar bills? AL
Always; that is the way they always paid their bills; they paid
the bills to us, that they got in at the box-office.
Q. How could they take in the bills in the winter season?
A. They never paid their bills until after the circus opened,
and in the course of a week or two, after they had opened
the oircus, they commenced paying their bills.
Q. You mean to say that that is the mode of business pursued
by a large concern like that of Barnum & Bailey? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That they paid out the bills which they received? A.
That is the way in which they paid all their bills; they used
to pay their bills in that way.
Q. Tiat is, so far as you are concerned? A. Well, I was
informed that they paid all their bills in that way, working
off their small bills that way.
Q. It was the small bills that they worked off upon you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who informed you of that? A. The collectors; my son,
or the manager, or whoever collected the money.
Q. Your collectors told you that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You said yesterday, speaking of your sons, that your three
sons were in New York, while you were in Oalifornia, were
you correct or incorrect in that statement? A. My sons, John
and Alfred, were with me, and my other son was here.
Q. There was only one son here? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you depute to him the performance of any official
work while you were away? A. Yes, sir; you mean in conneo.
tion with my public duties?
Q. Yes? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you have him do? A. The law gives the power
to the treasurer of the police department, to appoint a deputy
treasurer by and with the consent of the boar of police oom4
missioners; the object of that is —




6;76


'. Never mind the object; did you do that? W. When I
went away for 40 or 50 days, it was the first time I had been
away, and it was thought necessary that somebody should
be left to sign the checks or make the deposits at police headquarters, and my son was appointed by tbe board, for that
purpose; there is no salary attached to it, and he just performed such duties during the time that I was away that
were necessary.
Q. He did not file any bond, did he? A. No, sir; the treasurer was responsible for his actions
Q. You spoke something about some man over in Brooklyn,
doing the election-box business; having a contract; do you
remember his name now? A. If you have the name, and will
call my attention to it, I will tell you; I should know it on
the instan.t if I heard it, but I do not remember it.
Q. You do not remember it? A. No, sir; I do not remember it
Q. Was it an individual or a company? A. An individual,
I think, it was.
Q. Your engineer, Cox, lives on Long Island, or in the outskirts of Brooklyn, does he not? A. He liwes somewhere at
a place calledQ. Well, a little distance outside of Brooklyn? A Yes, sir;
two or three miles outside.
Q. Had you him in your mind when you said it was some man
in Brooklyn? A. No; I said to you positively, neither directly
nor indirectly, have I ever been interested in furnishing any
supplies to tbe police department from any source whatever.
Q. I did not ask you that just now; I asked you about your
engineer?   A. I suppose that was the inference that you
brought up; I will answer the question, if you will put it
Q. Do you know whether Sam Cox, your engineer, or his son,
had anything to do with the furnishing of the lumber and
manufacture of the election booths in this city for the year
1890? A 1890-that is four years ago.
Q. Yes; in 1890? A. I want to say right hereQ. Do you know; answer that question?  A. I do not know;
I do not think he did; I do not believe he did; because I
do not know anything about it; I have not seen him, I do not
think in seven or eight years; I do not know where he is, or what
his business is.
Q. You have not seen whom? A. My engineer's son that you
are talking about.
Q. I am asking you about the engineer? A. My engineer?
Q. Yes? A. Why, no; certainly not
Q. You swear to that? A. Positively.




677


Q. And if the engineer has made a statement to the contrary,
he has stated what is not true? A. That I was interested in
the manufacture of them?
Q. Yes? A. I do not believe he made that statement; I have
no knowledge that he was ever interested in that in any shape
or manner.
Q. Can you state the name of any other concern or individual,
who paid your bills in paper money? A. I would not like to
undertake to try to make such a statement as that; I could not;
it would be impossible.
Q. You can not name any other person who paid you in bills?
A. I would not say there was not, because we do to a greater or
less extent, get in some bills, but the great bulk of our business
is paid by checks and notes.
Q. The great bulk of transactions are with corporations, are
they not? A. Not particularly so; no, sir.
Q. Let us see; you supply the Manhattan Elevated railroad with
some timber, do you not? A. I have, whenever I have been the
lowest bidder.
Q. You are holders of the Manhattan Elevated Railroad Company stock? A. No, sir.
Q. Or any member of your family? A. No, sir.
Mr. Nicoll.-The thought has just occurred to me which the
chairman may or may not think is a happy one, but which will
perhaps relieve the committee from some of its difficulty in reference to this missing witness. I read from the New York WorldMr. Goff. —I object to that
Mr. Nicoll. —The committee has always accorded to me the
right to make useful suggestions here.
Mr. Goff.-I object to counsel reading from newspapers.
Chairman Lexow.- I do not see the relevancy of it.
Mr. Nicoll.- You have sent your sergeant-at-arms scouring
around this city for the purpose of finding the witness. I find
here by the paper that Mr. Granger departed yesterday -
Senator Saxton.- Do you want to give us any information by
which we can find him; never mind about reading from the paper.
Mr. Nicoll.- I find, without reading from the paper, that the
witness departed highly pleased with himself and surrounded by
admiring friends yesterday and I now suggest that the committee inquire whether any of his admiring friends are in court.
Mr. Lexow.- Mr. Goff, you will continue with the examination.
Mr. Goff.- Of course, if it is the counsel's purpose to ridicule
this committee, and turn this matter into burlesque, it is for the
committee to say whether they will permit him to do it or not.
Chairman Lexow.-We will try to stand it, if you will go on.




678
Mr. Goff.-I think it is unworthy of my friend; I know ie is
always ready to perpetrate a joke, but I think it is unworthy
of the dignity of the committee that we should be interrupted
In this manner.
Chairman Lexow.- Continue the examination
Q Can you name any other person who paid you any large
sums of money in bills, but the Barnum & Bailey circus people?
A. I would not like to make a statement about that, either one
way or the other.
Q. To your knowledge, have any of your deposits been made in
the Bowery bank or any other place on your behalf, any large
sums of money in bills, except those that you have described as
coming from Barnum & Bailey's circus? A. I do not know about
that
Q. Will you swear that there have not been such deposits
made? A. That there has not been such deposits?
Q. Yes. A. I will not make that statement
Q. Will you explain, if you cannot deny that -?  A. You are
going back now, into my personal account, are you?
Q. I am talking about that all the time. A. If you will permit
me to say, that in the aggregate amount of deposit in my personal account in the Bowery bank from 1889 was about $64,000,
outside of $58,000 which I received for the sale of my home in
Seventy-second street, and a $25,000 mortgage which I placed on
the home in which I am now living, and the aggregate -
Q Sixty-eight thousand dollars, do you say, exclusive of those
two items? A. No, $64,000, and that takes in my salary and
investments which I have made during the entire ten years that I
have been a police commissioner, because that account always
contained that, and it often happened that in my business, whenever my sons were temporarily off for a day or two, or three days
or a week, and a little short in their business acounts, that I
would furnish them my check on my personal account and they
would deposit it in the business account and give me a business
check back and I would deposit that in my personal account.
Q. I am unable to grasp the problem as stated between your
personal and business account, and I will not attempt to do it
A. Well, I think that is plain enough.
Q. What I want to know is, does the $68,000, which you have
described, include all the deposits in what you call your personal
account? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Exclusive of the money which you obtained for the purchase
of your house and some other items? A. And $25,000 that I
received for a mortgage. 
Q. That is $64,000 in your personal account? A Yes, sir.




679
Q. That you have no reference to now, to your business account?
a. No, sir.
Q Now, I ask you, if either in your personal account or in
your business account your deposit slips will show the deposit
of large sums of money in bills, other than the the sums of money
you have described as coming from Barnum & Bailey's circus?
A. I have stated to you that I could not answer that question;
that the deposit slips themselves would show that fact
Q. Do you know whether or not you received large sums of
money in greenbacks from other business concerns? A. I say to
you that we did receive to a greater or less extent, but a suilm
proportion in bills in connection with the entire business; but
they were coming in more or less all the time.
Q. I am speaking of large sums, $1,000 say? A. I would
not call that a very large amount
Q. Did you ever receive from any other source, except from
the circus people, $1,000 in bills? A. There is no doubt about
that at all. 
Q. Did you ever receive from any other concern than the
Barnum & Bailey circus people, the sum of $1,000, at any one
/ time, in bills, in payment of an account for lumber?  A. I
think there is no doubt about that at all.
Q. You have no doubt about thati? A No, sir.
Q. Will you name me a person or a concern that has paid
you that amount of money in bills, except the circus people?
A. No; it would be impossible for me to do that
Q. The bulk of your business is naturally here in New York,
in connection with corporate interests, is it not? A. What do
you mean when you say corporate interests?
Q. I mean exactly what I say? 'A Do you mean in reference
to my public duties?
Q. I say the bulk of your lumber business is carried on
with special corporate interests in this city? A. You mean
railroads and such things?
Q Take it that way; yes? KA   I have got a trade among
the railroad people, and steamship people, and the theatres
and hotels, and the building trade, and with cabinet makers.
Q. You supply the Manhattan Elevated Railway Company
with material, do you not? A. I have supplied them with a
great deal of lumber for the last 25 years.
Q. I ask you if you were a stockholder in he Mauha.tan
company? A. No, sir.        'Q You are not? A. No, sir.
Q. Or any of your family? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever receive any dividends from tiemn? X. Ye;




680


once; twice, I think, I did; I had a few shares of the stoc
which I had bought for an investment, and received two dividends upon it before I sold out.
Q. You were then a stockholder? A. I owned that stock;
I purchased it for an investment; I purchased 100 shares outright, and the other I purchased upon a margin and held it
about six months altogether, and then I disposed of it, and
during the time that I held it, I think I collected one dividend;
perhaps, two; I bought it about 1889 or 1890, and I sold it at
115.                  '                I
Q. You and Colonel Hain, of the elevated railroad, are very
intimate friends, are you not? A. No, sir; not particularly so,
except in a business way. 
Q. You visit at his office frequently, do you not? A. Not
very frequently.
Q. You do visit at his office? A. I drop in there two or
three times in the course of a year, perhaps.
Q. You supply the Broadway Railroad Company, do you not?
A The Broadway, and the Third Avenue Cable Company, when
they made their alterations on the road.
Q. And you are supplying the cable road on the west side
now, are you not? A   I am supplying a portion of it.
Q. The Fifty-third street portion, I mean? A. It runs all
along Ninth avenue there; they are buying from different lumber
dealers. 
Q. How many steamship companies do you supply with lumber? A. I supply the Atlas line, and the Cunard line, and the
White Star line, with material.
Mr. Nicoll.-I would like to note an objection. This seems
to be an utterly irrelevant inquiry, into his private business.
Senator O'Connor.-The objection will be overruled, because
we have held that the nature of this inquiry is such that the
private affairs of the officers of the police department may be
gone into to any extent for the purpose of proving the amount
of property that they have now. The charge is, that these men
have become wealthy by illegitimate means, and we think they
ought to be glad of this opportunity to show that the charge is
false. It is not necessary to repeat that.
Mr. Nicoll.-No, it is not necessary to repeat it when it is
stated in wholesale language as that, but at the same time,
apart from the desire of the witness to refute the imputation of
dishonesty upon him, it seems that the inquiry is going too far
into one's private affairs.
Senator O'Connor.-The inquiry into the private affairs will
will only be permitted, so far as tending to show his connection




681


in the public capacity-it may be disagreeable, b'iu tiaf is one
of the instances a man assumes when he takes a public office.
Mr. Nicoll.-How can his dealings with Colonel Hain and the
elevated road or his dealings with the Third avenue road have
any reference to his position as a police commissioner?
Senator O'Connor.- Only to show the nature of the business
and the means that he had in accumulating this large private
wealth that he is charged with now having, and it is also charged
that a portion of this private wealth is the result of illegitimate
property by reason of his position as police commissioner.
The Witness.-I am not worth any more to-day than I was
when I went into public life.
Mr. Gafo.-We know of a gentleman of great prominence who
stated that he was only worth $5,000. And in a few years he was
reputed to be worth millions.
A. I claim to be worth $400,000, and I was worth that before
I went into the police department; I am worth to-day that
amount, no more and no less, and I have had an income from my
real estate of $25,000 for the last 15 or 20 years, but I canmcn
remember every little particular item in a business where I
handled sixty or seventy million of dollars.
Q. So you are no richer to-day than you were before you were
appointed police commissioner? A. No, sir; I do not think I
am worth a dollar more than I was when I went into the police
department
Q. Where did you live when you went into the police department? A. My recollection is that I lived at 146 West Seventysecond street
Q. Are you not gravely mistaken in reference to that? A. I
do not think I am; I bought the house in Seventy-second street,
I think it was in 1883, and I went into the police department in
1884; I might have bought it just about the time I went into the
department; it may have been within a month or two.
Q. When were you appointed to the department? A.  was
first appointed on the 24th of November, 1884.. 
Q. Where were you living in 1884? A. That is wheie'Ti  nk
I was living, 156 West Seventy-second street; it may have been
that I did not get up there until the sprin u  of 1885, but I think
I went there in 1883 or 1884, the spring of 1884.
Q. Were not you living at 427 West Forty-seventh street, when
you were appointed police commissioner? A. I lived there fot
18 years; I bought that house in 1868, and my recollection is,
that I sold that and bought in Seventy-second street, I think it
was in 1883; it may possibly have been in 1884; it may have been
within a month or two after I went into the department, but it
L.;   86 '




682
was just about that time; if you have the record, I will admit thE
reoord of the date, whatever that may be.
Q. Is it not a fact that you actually lived with your family at
429 West Forty-second street, when you were appointed police
cosissioner? A. I have given you my very best tecollection
of that now; it may be possible that I lived there; I bought that
house in 1868 for $18,750 and I lived there until I bought the
house in Seventy-second street
Q. And then when you lived there and when you were apointed
oommissioner of the police department, you were worth $4~00,000?
A. Yes, I think I was.
Q. And you were as rich then as you are now? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you bought that house for $18,000? A. Eighteen thow
sand seven hundred and fifty dollars.
Q. What real property did you (wn at that time? A. My,
business property - do you mean that? 
Q. I mean when you were appointed commissioner?   A I
owned my business property.
Q. That is your lumber yard? A. It amounts to over $200,000j
my buildings and machinery there.
Q. And you own that to-day?- A. Yes, sir; I owned that mucH
then and since; it cost me about $200,000. 
Q. What else did you own? A. In 1884, then I owned a housa
in Newark and several lots which I have owned for 16 yeaia
Q. In Newark? A. Yes, sir.
Q Did you give that away to anyone? A. No, sir.
Q. Is it your property yet? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that house rented in Newark? A. No; my mother
lives in it
Q. It is in your name? A. Yes, sir.
Q. She lives there yet? A. Yes, sir; she is 90 years old.
Q. What other real property did you own in 1884? A, I think
that will cover pretty nearly all about that I own; $250,000 in
my business; the house in New York and the Brooklyn propertyor the Newark property, I mean.
Q. What do you value that at? A. The Newark property?
Q. Yes? A. It cost me about $17,000.
Q. Seventeen thousand dollars, and your house in Forty-seventh
street was how much? A. I gave $18,750 for it
Q. Is that all the real property that you own? A. I had a
house, 114 Forty-seventh street, which I bought in 1862.
Q. How much was that worth? A. I sold that for $10,000.
Q. You sold that before you were appointed police commis
sroner'  A. Yes, sir.
Q I want to know the property that you had when you wem




683
apponted police commissioner? A. I gave you all except Whe
lumber account
Q. You have given that at $200,000? A. That is only my
business and machinery-that is only my plant
Q. Your lumber and plant and business machinery and property, altogether, what did you value it at, at that time? A. I
have valued it at pretty nearly $300,000 altogether.
Q. Now we have had it at the time you were appointed, you
were the owner of your business plant, stock and the property
in your lumber yard, which you value at $300,000, and you own
property in Newark, which you value at $17,000, and you own
property in New York, the house you live in, at $18,000; is that
all? A. I should think that was about all.
Q. That makes $335,000.
Senator O'Connor.-Three hundred and thirty-five thousand
seven hundred and fifty dollars.
Q. Well, the house in Forty-seventh street was $18,750; we
will say in round numbers that it was $335,000? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What money had you then? A. I had the money in my
business necessary to carry it on.
Q. Then you include that in your estimate? A. Yes, sir; when
I think of that I estimate it at about that
Q. Outside of the estimate you have mentioned, what money
had you? A. I do not know; of course I always had money in
my business.
Q Can you tell us what money you had? A. Not particularly
In 1884.
Q. Had you a deposit in bank in 1884? A Yes, sir.
Q. How much? A. We were depositing right along; carrytbg along our balance. 
Q. How much can you say In money did you carry in 1884?
A. You mean an average balance?
Q I want to know; you have stated that you had so much
pperty? A. I can noI tell you; it may be up to-day and
down to-morrow the way the anoownt ran.
Q. You have stated voluntarily of yaor owm mnoan; you
were not asked; you stated voluntarily, tb you were as rich
at the time you were appointed police  ommssioner as you
are to-day; having made that voluntary satement, the committee would be interested in your showing the figures tat
make up your wealth? A. I will be very glad to gie any
information that I ean.
Q I ask you, outside of the valuation which you have put
upon your real property and your business interest, moumtng
tp I4000   what other property, real or personao did 0o




684


possess? A. There is no doubtbut b  that I had some personal
property of some kind, but I can not recall now exactly what
it was; I had three lots in Greenwood cemetery at that time,
which I have not included.
Q. You have those three lots yet? A. Yes, sir.
Q. We can exclude those then? A. I did not include anything of that kind in my estimate.
Q. Outside of your lots in Greenwood cemetery, will you
give us any other property, real or personal, that you owned,
when you 'were appointed police commissioner, outside of what
you have given here? A. It is impossible, absolutely impossible, for me tell you what personal property I may have had
in 1884; I may have had some little investments in stock or
something of that kind; I can not recollect everything that I
owned.                                    -~ 
Q. Did you have stock? A. I think, more or less; I have had
some little stock for 20 years or more.
Q. What stock did you have? A. In 1884?
Q. Yes? A. If I should make a statement at all in conneotion with that, I should think that I had some Consolidated Gas
stock at that ime.
Q. Don't say that yon think; I want the fact? A. I had
a little of that
Q. I want you to state, if you can give this committee a
description of any property, real or personal, of any kind or
description whatever, that you were the owner of in 1884, outside of the property that you have described? A. I have given
you to the best of my recollection; I have given my recollection.
Q. I find, from the record here, that you purchased the house
in Seventy-second street, 222 east of Tenth avenue, 20 by 100
feet, on July 1st, 1886; that is two years after you were ap
pointed police commissioner? A. I did not know that it was
so long after my appointment.
Q. And you paid $46,000 for that property?  'A. I thinkl
$44,000 was the price of it; the deed was $46,000, but the
agreement was $44,000.
Q. Did you pay that in cash? A. No, sir.
Q. How did you pay it? A. I gave the money-I did not
wish to daw it all out of my business at that time; I think
I paid $5,000 down and gave a second mortgage, payable $2,500
every six months, and that left a first mortgage which I paid
off in three ar four years afterwards; I sold my other house
in Forty-seventh street in the meantime.
Q. The person from whom you bought your house was Mr.
Hamilton, the builder, was he not? A. Yes, sir.




685,
Q. My attention was diverted when you spoke of the terms
of the purchase? A. I said that my recollection was of the
terms of purchase thatt  I gave $5,000 down, and that I gave
a second mortgage, payable $2,500 each six months, until the
second mortgage was completed and the first mortgage of $25,000
was held by some institution; I think it was paid about five
years afterwards
Q. When did you pay off that second mortgage? A. I think
I paid that off runing through a period of a year or a year and a
half.
Q. Did you get a satisfaction piece? A. It left about $14,000
and I think it took about two years to pay it off.
Q. Did you get a satisfaction piece I asked you? A. Yes, sir;
I must have; it must be on record,
Q. And that was recorded you say? A. I should think it was
Q. You know that the second mortgage that you gave to Mr.
Hamilton was recorded, do you not? A. It must have been I
suppose; I did not attend to that.
Q. You got back the bond did you not? A. I must have; I
suppose.                I
Q. Did you get it in your hand? rA. No, sir; when I sold that
property to Mir. — his lawyer may have got the paper; I am willing
to accept the record, whatever it may be.
Q. I find by the record that on the date of purchase, July 1,
1886, that you gave a purchase-money mortgage to George C.
Hamilton for $16,000 on that house; how df you explain that?
A. Then the consideration is $46,000.            "i
Q. Forty-six thousand dollars? A. If I give $5,000 in money
and $16,000 on a second mortgage, the first mortgage was $25,000
and that makes it $46,000. 4
Q. Twenty-one thousand dollars and $25,000 makes $46,000?
W. Yes, sir.
Q. Then you were mistaken when you said that you gave a
mortgage in a different amount? A. Nc, I did not state that; I
said the second mortgage was made so that I coull pay it off Zt
the rate of about $2,500 every six month.
Q. How shortly after, was that $16,000 mortgage paid? I.
I could not recall particularly about that.' i 
Q. Has it been paid at all? A. Yes, sir; it has been paid.
Q. You paid that next year, did you not? A. I should think
not.                 o
Q. Tie record shows that you paid It on June 29, 1889, less
hlan one year after? A. Then I must have paid it then.
Q. So you cleared off $16,000, the second mortgage, just in one
year? A. I think I can give a reason for that; I sold the house




686
129 West Forty-seventh street, that I had purchased in 1868 and
gave $18,750 for, I sold that for $16,000 after I had purchased
the house in Seventy-second street and the money received fromt
the sale of that house, was applied to the payment of the mortgage upon this other house and I think as to the S25,009, that I
paid that off about in the neighborhood of five years afterwards.
Q. When did you sell the Forty-seventh street house? A. I
should think it was sold along eight or ten months after I moved
in Seventy-second street
Q. Who did you sell it to? A. I do not remember his name;
lhe is some tailor on Eighth avenue.
Q. How much did he pay you for it? A. I think he paid me
$15,000 or $16,000; it might have been $14,500 or $14,700; but it
was in that neighborhood.
Q. Was the property in your name? A. No, sir; I think it was
In Mrs. MoClave's name -my wife's name at that time.
Q. And that is part of the property that you have given us as
your assets when you were appointed police commissioner? A.
I think that is true.
Q. So that may be struck out; the $18,000 may be struck out
of that estimate of yours? A. Yes, I think that is true.
Q. Strike out then the $18,000; is there anything else to be
stricken out of your estimate that you have given us? A. No, sir;
whatever money I got from it I used in the payment of the
Seventy-second street house.
Q I am talking about your own property? A. Let me say this
to you, please, about that; that that house had a mortgage of
$6,000 on it, which was on at the time that I purchased it, and it
was on at the time that I sold it, so that the equity in that
property -
Q. Do you swear here that Mrs McOlave conveyed that house
to this alleged purchaser? A. I am not so sure of that
Q. Are you sure of anything at all? A. Ye, sir; I am sure
there is no such —I think I am pretty clear; you are carrying me
back so many years -
Q Cam you not pin yourself down to a matter of this kind?
AL I can not recollect positively whether - that was our home -
whether it was in Mr. MeClave's name or not; I have a sort of a
slight recollection that it was; that I had given It to her as a
home for my family back in 1868, but.it may have been in my
own name; I may be mistaken about that
Q. Will you swear that you executed a conveyance of the
Forty-seventh street house to any person? A. I will stand by
the record, whatever that may be.
Mr. Nical. —Is not that a fair statement to the committee; I




687


appeal to the committee for the protection of this witness; is not
that fair. Let us see the record.
A. I will stand by the record, whatever it is.
Q. No; this is my private memorandum and I do not propose
to furnish the witness with information? A. When I say that
I am ready to stand by the record, I do not see that I can do
anything more than that
Q. I want to get your knowledge of the matter at the present
time? A. I am giving you the very best knowledge that I have
in reference to it
Senator O'Connor.-The idea of the committee is this; the
material inquiry is how much was Mr. McCave worth when he
was appointed police commissioner and how much is he worth
now. He may be mistaken about the details that make up his
property, whether it was owned by his wife or himself or whether
he conveyed it or his wife conveyed it, but the record will show.
We simply want the facts and we think that will do.
A. My wife never had any property or anything of that kind
in her possession, except it may have been that house
Q. I will act upon the Senator's suggestion; give us a state>
ment in reference to that property? A. There was a $6,000
mortgage upon the house at the time it was bought and at the
time it was sold.
Q. There is a search that I have here against John McClave
and Charlotte McClave and up to April 18,1894, there was not
one conveyance found having been made by your wife? A. Then
in that case that appears conclusively that the house was in my
own name.
Q. Then we will see about that? A. I certainly know that E
bought it in 1868 and I paid for it and lived In it for 18 years
Senator O'Connor.-Then perhaps you are better off than you
thought you were, if you own it yet
The Witness.- I only know that in carrying my memory baeA
it occurred to me that in those days, I was dealing extensively
with speculators in the lumber business and that it was a risky
business, and it ruined me once, and I put the little capital that
I had in Mrs McClave's name, but I may be mistaken about that
At the tino of my difficulty there was turned over everything
that we had in the world for the benefit of our creditors, and
we left ourselves completely stripped. We did not keep anytbing. 
Q. When was that failure? W. That was the failure of fie
fim of my brother and myself.,t When was that? A In 18704 about   ear ags




688
Q. Well, from 1870 up to 1884-  A. I think I was about 21
years of age at that time.
Q. From 1870 up to 1884, the time of your appointment as
police commissioner, you had overcome your difficulties and
accumulated a property of about $300,000 or $330,000 in value?
FA That is correct; I was entitled to it, considering the business
that I did.
Q. This house in Forty-seventh street-I want to be perfectly fair with you —  A. Well, I want to be the same way
with you.
Q. The record shows that Mrs. MoCdave had not title to (he
house and that she did not convey it; now, can you tell this
oomrmittee, of your own knowledge, whether you had title to
that house? A. I must have had it then.
Q. We will see (referring to memoranda)? A. If she did not
have it, I must have had it
Q. Let us see; here is a search from John McClave from
November 24th to date, the date being April 12th, 1894, when
were you appointed police commissioner? A. November 24th,
1884.
Q. You lived in the house in Forty-seventh street when 'you
were appointed, did you not? A. I do not say that I did; I had
an idea that I did, but you corrected that
Q  You had that house, as you think you had, when you
were appointed police commissioner, in Forty-seventh street?
A. I certainly did not move out of one, until I had the other
one to go into.
Q. I call your attention to the search against you, up to
date, including that time, and see if you see any conveyance
from you to any person, of that house in Forty-seventh streetyou can commence here? A. Then your search is not complete;
that is all.
Chairman Lexow.-It may have been ield in the name of
some other person.
The Witness.-No; it was not; I never had any property in
the name of any other person.
Q. o whom did you sell it? A. I sold it to a tailor, No. 429;
if you will send up there-he is still living in the house and
you will get his name; I had never met him ui til ten; it
was sold through the brokerage office of George W. Decuner,
real estate agent at Broadway and Forty-second street; I certainly do not own it now.
Q. You remember that either you or Mrs. McOlave sold that
house? A. The house is sold, certainly.
Mr. Niooll.-Does it not appear in your slip-that il, the
second time we have caught you.




689


Q. What Is this place tit you executed a lease of a honse
In Forty-seventh street; that has nothing to do with this house,
has it? A. No; that was some business arrangement
Q. You got a lease of that, did you? A. Yes; he has a tent
of mine for 10 years.
Q. So that this record, this search of the Lawyers' Title
Insurance Company of New York shows that there has been
no conveyance from you or from MNS. McClavc of that house
in Forty-seventh street? A. Well, I still say that I do not
own it now; I did own it in 1868, and I sold it.
Q. Sold it in 1868? A. I bought it in 1868, and I sold it
at the time I bought the house in Seventy-second street, and if
your records do not show thaat; it is not my fault
Mr. Nicoll. —He may have lived in it as a tenant
The Witnes —.-No; I lived in it while I owned it only, and
when I bought the house in Seventy-second street, I sold that
house, and the money that I got from it was put or used in
part payment for the house that I purchased in Seventy-second
street.
Q. How near together were those two transactions?   A.
They were very close together-that Is tc say, within a year.
Mr. Nicoll.-The deed was never recorded, then?
Mr. Goff.-As we show here and as you lave recognized you
purchased the house in 1886 in Seventy-second street
The Witness. —Your record shows that —what part of 1886
was that?
Q. July 1, 1886; two years after your appointment as police
commissioner. A. Then I moved from Forty-seventh street.
Q. Yes; up to Seventy-second street? A. Yes, sir; then the
house in Forty-seventh street was sold within a year after the)
house in Seventy-second street.
Q. Was it purchased directly or within a year? A. Within a
year say.
Q. And you can not give us the name of the man who purchased it? A. I had never seen the man up to the time that the
title was passed.
Q. Did you rent the house at all? A. No, sir.
Q Did it remain vacant? A. It remained vacant until I sold
it; I could not get as much for it as I thought I ought to have,
and it remained vacant for a number of months.
Q. And the-man to whom you sold it lives in the house now,
do you say? A. I understand that he does; I have never seen
him from that time to this; could it be possible that he could
take a title and not put it on record?, 
L.       87




690


hiairman Ikxow.- It is sometimes donei
The Witness.-Could he hold his deed-fliat was not my
lbusiness, was it? I will tell you a thing that will help you;
that title was searched and passed by the law firm of Stickney,
Spencer & Ordway, and they will give you the information about
it that they have.
Q. I find a memorandum on the book of another search which
shows that your wife sold that house —I want to be just with
you - on December 17, 1886? A. Well, I thought so.
Q. Subsequent to the purchase of the house in Seventy-second
street? A. Yes, sir.
Senator Saxton. Is the consideration stated?
Mr. Gofft- No.
Q. Your recollection is that the consideration was $16,000?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know how that was paid?, A. There was a mortgage of $6,000 on it, and they gave me bills for the difference,
excepting they gave me a little second mortgage of $2,000.
Q. Then there was a difference of about $11,000 paid to vou at
that time? A. Yes, sir; at the time of the sale; I remember that
they paid it in the office of Stickney, Spencer & Ordway, and
they gave me a mortgage of $2,000.
Q. Then the amount actually paid to you was $9,000? A. Yes,
sir; about that
Q. Then we were correct in striking that item, the value of that
house, $16,000 or $18,000, out of your assets? A. Yes, sir; less
that mortgage.
Q. No; the value of the house? A. Well, there was a $6,000
mortgage on it.
Q. So the sale of the house in Forty-seventh street had nothing
whatever to do with the purchase of the house in Seventy-second
street? A. Except the fact that I told you, that when that house
was sold, I used the proceeds of it for the purpose of paying off
the second mortgage on the Seventy-second street house.
Q. That is the only element that it had? A. Yes, sir; about
$9,000.
Q. When did you sell that house in Seventy-second street? AL
I sold it when I bought the one that I am living in at the present
time.
Q. How much did you sell it for? A. Fifty-eight thousand
dollars.
Q. It is $56,000 on the record? A. I think it was $58,000, and
I think they gave me $3,000 when they signed the contract and
$55,000 when they took the title.
Q. A $55,000 check? A. Yes, sir; the house I alculated t
I made about $14,000 on.




691
Q. When did you buy the house in which you are now living?
SA. About the same time that I sold that.
Q How much did you pay for that? A. Seventy thousand dollars; there was $45,000 mortgage upon it, and I took $45,000 of
the $55,000 that I received from the other house, to pay that
mortgage off.
Q. When did you buy the property that you have in the country? A. I purchased that about a year ago.
Q. How much did you pay for the ground? A. Twenty-five
thousand dollars.
Q. There are eleven acres in that? A. No; five acres.
Q. How much an acre did you pay? A. I gave a little less
than $4,000 an acre for it.
Q. How much did it cost you to build the house? A. I think.about $28,000 to $30,000.
Q. So that 'property stands you in $50,000 or $60,000? A. Yes,
sir; $25,000 of that I placed a mortgage on the house that I live
in now.
Q. You have a house now valued at how much in Seventy-seeond street? A. According to what I gave for it the equity is -
Q. Give us the price? A. I have $45,000 equity in it.
Q. And there is a mortgage on that of $25,000? A. Yes, sir.
Q Is the property in the country free and clear? A. Yes, sir.
Q That makes about $100,000? A. About $53,000.
Q. The equity in the city property and your country property
is about $100,000, is it not? A. Yea, sir; about that.
Q. Did you buy any other property then that yola kave
described for any person? A. No.
Q. In any State outside of New York? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you own any property in any State outside of New York?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where does your son-in-law, Mr. Higgins, live? A. In New
Boohelle.
Q. Who owns the property that he lives in? A. He has got a
lttle home there costing him $6,000 or $7,000.
Q. Is it it your name? A. No, sir.
Q. Was it ever in your name? A. No; he bought it himself,
and I have nothing to do with it
Q. How much money have you got in bank? A. At present?
Q. Yes A. I do not think that I have very much; it has been
very dull the past year, since my fire.
Q. You got over $30,000 insurance on your fire, have you not?
A. That does not last long in my business; it is going in and out
all the time.
Q. You say you have had a dull year in your business? AL




-69n


Yes, Sr; the last year I was almost standing still for three or
i lr months; I had my stock and office and stables burned out.
Q. Well, your business was standing still and your deposits in
Lue bank must have necessarily been very few? A. No; we were
doing some business all the time, but it was not so much.
Q. How could you do business if you were burned out? AL
We were getting in stock and disposing of it all the time.
Q. You have sent for your bank passbooks, have you? A. Yes,
sir; did you send me to send for my office bankbooks, too?
Q. No. A. I have sent for my private bank passbook.
l. Did you ever collect any other sum of insurance than the
$30,000 that you have spoken of? A. You mean fire insurance?
Q. Yes; fire insurance. A. I have been insured, as a rule, for
a long period of years for about $250,000.
Q. In various companies? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many fires have you had? A. I have bad during that
time —I have paid about $220,000 for premiums, and I have
Received about $50,000 fire loeses.
Q. How many fires have you had? A. Two.
Q. Within what period of time? A. Since 1864; neither one
roke out on my own premises.
Q. I asked you before to name the corporations to which you
supplied lumber in this city? A. I can name them in a general
way, running back over a period of years
Q. Give us the names of such corporations for the last five
years? A. Several steamship companies; I will answer right here,
if you think that my position as commissioner has ever had anything to do in my lumber business that you are very much mistaken; it has never had anything of the kind whatever to do with
my business; I have got it simply because I was entitled to it, and
for no other reason; and the question of my position as commissioner has had nothing to do with it.
Q. Did you ever supply a tie of timber to Mr. Crimmins as a;
contractor before you were commissioner? A. I don't know
whether he ever used any before that time.
Q. That is not answering my question; did you rver supply
him with a tie of timber before you were appointed a police
commissioner? A. I never supplied any tie; no, sir.
Q. Or any lumber of any description whatever; did you ever
supply to Mr. Crimmins any lumber before you were commis.
sioner- did you or not? A. I don't know whether I did or not;
I can not tell how long I have been supplying him with lumber.
Q. Will you swear he did get lumber out of you before that?
A I can not tell how long he has been upon my books, but I
think I did. 




q. Will you swear that you ever had any transaction before
that with Mr. Crimmins as a contractor, in furnishing him with
lumber, before you were police commissioner? A. You want
to make me answer something that is not fair; how can I
swear to a thing running back 10 years; I do not recollect;
but my best recollection is that John D. Crimmins has been
upon my books for 12 or 15 years; he bought very little lumber,
probably not more than a couple of thousand dollars worth a
year; and in reference to this question about the cable roads;
they were not charged to Mr. Crimmins; they were charged to
the Third Avenue Railroad Company and the Broadway Railroad Company; I was only one of half a dozen lumber dealers
who sold them material.
Q. It is very easy for you to say what your books show, when J
your books are destroyed? A. You can put Mr. Crimmins on
the stand, and I will be very glad to have you do so.
Chairman Lexow.-Do not make those remarks; if you will
answer the questions categorically, there will be no trouble
and we will get to the point much more rapidly.
Q. Will you swear that you have supplied a foot of lumber
to the elevated railroads, before you were appointed police
commissioner? A. Yes, sir; a great deal more than sipce I
was appointed.
Q. Are you clear about that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you a record of that? A. No; but you can go to the
railroad people for a record.
Q. You are clear about that? A. I told you my books were
destroyed, and I am perfectly willing to have you put them on
the stand and let them produce their books; I will be glad to
have you do that.
Chairman Lexow.-Do you not see that these remarks simply
lengthen out this matter. If you will answer yes or no, we will
get through more rapidly. If you do not know, just say so.
The Witness.-I am trying to be as truthful as I can.
Q. Name the steamship companies to which you have furi
nished lumber? A. The Cunard, the Atlas, the Anchor, the
National and the White Star; I think that is about all.
Q. The amount of lumber that you suplied to those companies is not very great, is it? A. Some of them  run from
$25,000 to $30,000 a year.
Q. Name to us one of the companies that runs up to that
amount? A. The Atlas and the National; I should think the
National would run about $30,000 or $35,000 a year.
Q. When did ye- first commence to supply the National line
with lumber? A. I do not know, but a good man_ years ago.




694


Q.Before you were a police commissioner? Xl. I do not
think they were In existence then.
Q. The National line not in existence before you were Po-lice
commissioner? A, No; they rum a line of business —there may
have been passenger steamneme but this that I furnish you
is for cattle steamers.
Q. Then you did not miiply the National line of steamers
with lumber before you were a commissioner? A. I think not
for the cattle trade.
Q. When did you first commence to supply the Atlas line
with lumber? A. When they moved up to Twenty-fourth street,
near my yard.
Q. When was that? A. That was six or seven years ago.
Q. That was after you were appointed police commissioner,
thern? A. Yes, sir; those lines that I supplied, moved from.
down town up close to where my yard is.
Q. I understand the lo-cation. What other lines did you
mention? A. I mentioned the Ounard.
Q. W"hen did you. commence to supply thlem? A. That Is
divided up between two or three dealers.
Q.When did you commence to supply them-is my question?
A. I shonuld think a couple of years ago.
Q. After you were appointed police commissioner? A. Yes,
Q. What Is the next steamship line that you suppilied? A.
What lines have you got-you have the NatiomalQ. We have got the Netherlands? A. I did not say the Netherlands; I said the Natiomd.
Q. We bave the Atlas, the Ouniard, the National? A. The
White Stair and the Anchor Line.
Q. When did you comnuueie, to supply the Anchor Line.? A.
They moved up there about two yeaxs ago near my place.
Q. After you were appointed poolice commissioner? A. Yes,,
sir; I have been commissioner over eight years.
Q. And the Wh~itle Star, was that after you were appointed
police commissioner? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All of these cimpanies, you commenced to supply them with
m~aterial affer you were appointed poliee commissioner, A.
Yes, sir; most of them; just after I was appoi~ntied a commissioner, moved up town in the neighborhood of my yard.
Q. They moved to your location, so as to be near you? A.
They moved up to Twenty-fourth, Twenty-fifth and Twenty-sixth
streets and my yards are Twenty-first street.
Q. it is not often thiat corporations are so aeccomod-ating as
that? A. - 11ey did not move there for my accommodation at all.




695
Q. Will yo  nane any frm of builders in this city to wtioM
you supply lumber? A. You mean in the oontruotion of
bwldings?
Q. Yes.a A We are supplying more or less of them all the
time.
Q. Will you give me the name of a single firm? AL I do not
have much of a building trade now, because I went out of it after
1872; I have some; I am supplying some houses in One Hundred
and Forty-fifth street; we do not solicit that sort of trade
Q. The truth of it is, the great bulk of your business is done
with corporations; is not that the fact? A. After 1870, I tried
to get clear of everything that I could in the building line and
my trade has been with cabinet makers and others of that kind.
Q. Is not this the fact since you have been police conmmissioner
that the great bulk of your trade has been with corporations?
A. I think that is true; I am willing to admit that if it will be
of any service to you, but my position of police commissioner has
not been used in that connection.
Q. Have you any further voluntary statements to make? A.
No, sir; I think not
Q. Did yo u.make out any checks tH Aeker, Merrill & Condit?
A. Yes, sir; I have made them out; not very large ones; we
buy a little in there once in a while; I do not think we have
bought anything of them for a year.
Q. Before the lasb year did not they supply your house witg
groceries and so on? A Mrs. MeOlave ordinarily attended to
the household expenses, sometimes I sent a check.
Q. Did not they supply you largely in the way of groceries and
cigars? A. Not very largely.
Q. But they supplied you? A. They did somewhati
Q. Didn't they supply you exclusively? A. No, sir.
Q. Will you say that you did tnot pay into the firm of Aoelfr,
Merrill & Condit for one year, a sum more than your salary as
police commissioner? A. Yes, sir I do, absolutely, not one-fiftl
of it I do not think.
Q. You say you did not? A. I did not, no, sir.
Q. You did not send to them a check or checks in one yeae
aggregating an amount greater than your salary as police comn
missioner? A. No, sir; I never did.
Q. Are you clear about thaft? A. Yes, sir; absolutely clear.
Q. In any one year? A. No, sir.
Q. You have an account of all the moneys that you sent them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you got their bills? A. Whatever may be left of
them, but I would be very glad to have you produce them as
witnessea




696


Q. They were destroyed also, were they? AI  will tell yon
that I do not believe ever in our lives that we have had $1,000 a
year from Acker, Merrill & Condit; Mrs. McOave pays her own
bills for goods for household expenses
Q. I do not wish to try her, but if you wish to bring her inMr. Nicoll. —I think a man's grocery bills should be left where
they are; is there any value at all in finding out how much a
man pays his butcher or his grocer?
Chairman Lexow.-iMr. Goff has finished, I think, in that line.
Mr. Goff —I asked a question and he answered it; that has
settled it
Senator O'Connor.-The purpose is to show, I suppose, that
lie lived at a very extravagant figure.
M. Nicoll.-He has got thirteen children.
The Witness.- I am willing to state generally what my living
expenses have been.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You have a very large family have you not? A. Yes, sir.
Chairman Lexow. —Will you continue with your examination,
Mr. Goff?
Mr. Goff.- If you wish to follow that up we will do so, if the
committee want that.
Mr. Nicoll.- Yes, let us have it all.
Mr. Goff. —We will follow it up if there is no objection.
Senator O'Connor. —You claim in a general way, Mr. Goff,
that Mr. McOlave's expenses for living has increased very materially now from what they were before he was a police comb
missioner.
Mr. Goff. —Yes, and the number of the family has not materially increased since he has been appointed a police commissioner.
The Witness.- No, sir; I had the last of my fourteen children
sixteen years ago.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. The family you had then, you have now? Kr That is what
I have had to take care of through my life.
Q. But you did not have half a dozen more servants, before
you were police commissioner? A. No; I had three or four
though, always.
Q. And you have six now, have you not? A. I should have
to count them up.
Q. So numerous that you can not tell? A. Whatever is necessary for the purpose of conducting my household I have; I think
we have in the house five servants; we have a cook, a laundress




697


and a ehlambermiad; I guess four, and one for Mrai Granger's
little Children.
Q. But you did not keep a ooaohman before you were a police
commissioner, did you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. A coachman in livery and a carriage? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And a carriage and four hourses? A. Four horses? I
don't drive four horse s
Q. Haven't you four horses in the city? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you not four horses in your stable? A. I have got
altogether in my business, thirty horses.
Q. I mean your family horses? A. No, sir; I have two horses
and my daughter has a little saddle horse-three horses.
Q. How many horses have you in the country? A. I havy-. ax
old team that I left there.
Q. Now we pick up as we go along, the different horses? AL ]
left an old team; I bought that team twelve years ago, and thtey
were ald and I used them in the country.
Q. They were old when you bought them twelve years ago?
A. No; but they are old now; when I left the country last fall,
there wanted to be some little ploughing done and I left them
for that purpose.
Chairman Lexow.-We da not care, Mr. Goff, to go into all of
these little matters.
Q. Have you got a yacht? A. No, sir -I have got a rowboat
Q. You have rented yachts, have you not? A. I had one one
year, five or six years ago; I gave $200 for it for my boys.
Q. The years that you used Inspector Williams' yacht, you did
not pay for it, did you? A. I didn't use his yacht; I never Nras
aboard of it
Q. Did not your family use Inspector Williams' yacht? A. No,
sir; I think one of my sons took a little sail on it once.
Q. Did you ever spend a year at Manhasset, Long Island? Ai.
I spent three years there.
Q Did you ever have Inspector Williams' yacht there? A.,i.
sir.
Q. Did your family have Inspector Williams' yacht Elenora
there? A. No, sir; my family never did have it.
Q. Wait one moment; we will get along quicker; will you
swear that Inspector Williams' yacht was not sent to Long Island
where you were for the accommodation of you or your family?
A. One of my boys went with Inspector Williams' yacht and took
a sail for a day or two that was sent there or was there.
Q. It was sent there because you were living there; is not that
the fact? A. I think not; it was a little catboat.
Q. Never mind about the oat or the boat; was Inspector WilL        88. 




'698


m there? A. You are trying-no, he was not —yon are
ing to make it appear that he sent some great big yacht there
for my family to get aboard of, and there is no truth in it.
Q. Was Inspector Williams there? A. He never owned anyfhiig? in the shape of a boat over 40 or 45 feet long; he had a
catboat that cost him $200 or $300, and the papers have tried
to make out that he had a great steam yacht.
Q. You start in as a defender of Inspector Williams, do you?
S. No; I do not; I think he is able to take care of himself.
Q The summer you were at Manhasset —I want to know if
nspector Williams was stopping there at that time? A. No, sir.
i. t Or his family? A. No, sir.
Q. Did his yacht go there? A. I think he stayed over one day;
Be stopped a day or two there.
Q. Was he aboard of that yacht? A. I think he was.
Q. You swear to that? A. Yes; I remember that he was,
Because he came over on the island where I was and saw me.
Q. And that was the only time that you or your family or any
member of it was upon Inspector Williams' yacht? A. Yes, sir.
Q The only time? A. Yes, sir; I never took a sail on it myself.
Q You have stated that you did not go upon it; you are not
rery fond of the water, are you? A. Yes, sir; I like it very much,
but I did not get a chance to take time to go.
Q. You are perfectly familiar and intimate with Inspector
IWilliams? A. No more than anybody else.
Q You are an officer over him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He has been on trial before you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How mniny times? A. I think that during the ten years
(hat I have been in the department that Inspector Williams has
been on trial twice or three times
Q You voted every time for his acquittal, did you not? A. I
Wink very likely
Q. Do you not know? A. I should be inclined to say that TI  L
Q. You know it as a fact, do you not? A. I exercised the disaretion allowed me by law.
Q. Do you not know it as a fact? A. I do not think that
Inspector Williams has ever been found guilty of any charge
against him since I have been in the police department.
Q. We all recognize that? A. I cast my vote at those dates,
and I would be willing to cast it right over again in the same
way as I did then; I stand upon the record.
Q. You say you would? A. Yes; and I think any fair-minded
man who would read the testimony would do the same.
Q. You voted for his acquittal every time? A. I think likely
I did; not guilty, I think, that is the way I voted.




V99
I~le was nof acquited on that trial, wshA.Fu~        o
guilty-which tria have you reference to?
Q. The first trial. A. I think the first trial the charge wa*
made by one of the Society for the Prevention of Crime; that warn
the trial that the papers made such a fuss over.
Q. Never mind about the papers; answer my questions; was
he acquitted on the first trial at which you presided? A. Elihu
Root and George Bliss and Joel Erhart were his Counsel and
theyQ. Theme is no nece-ssity of saying who were his counsel; answer
my question; was Inspector Williams acquitted or convicted?
A. I think he was acquitted, and I -think he -
Chairma'n Loexow.-You must not interject thesm statements.
The simple question was whether he was convicted or acquitted?
You can answer that. A. Hle was -not convicted, and their statement was -
Chiairman Loexow.- Po not say anything more; you were asked
a simple question and you can answer that.
Mr.. Nicoll.- I will bring, all that out on cross-examination.
Q. You say you think he was acquitted? A. I think he was
andQ. Qan not you understand that -you must not trifle in this
way; amswer the questicn only. A. I say no; he was found not
guilty.
Q. I ask the question now, if the commissioners, four in num,ber, then rendered their judgment of -not guilty on that trial?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I re-ad to you from the opinion of one of your brother commissioners on that trial, C(Xrnimisioner Porter? A. That was
Mr. Moss' brief that he hadQ. I am reaiding from Ommlissioner Porter's opinion, not Mr.
Moss brief. A. I think General Porter statedChiairman Lexow.- There. is no necessity of your answering
in that way.
Q. Here is the finding of yxxir brother commissioner on that
trial that you say Police Inspector Williams, at that time captain,
was aicquitted -A. That is General Porter'sQ. Well, yes -"Fourth. The fact that the-se houses of Il
repute - houses of assignationr, house of prostitution, gam'Aing
houses, policy and bunco shops- do exist, and hay- existed, in
various parts of the precinct, and that Captain Williams and his'
force have long known that they existed, and have rarely interfered with them, is sufficient to warrant the conclusion that they
are permitted to carry on their nefarious business, if not pro.
teoted in it. The failure to suppress them, or, at least, to pre*




700


vent their obnoxious obtrusion upon the eyes of the! ubli,
coupled with the fact that when trespassers fro= thea arc
arrested, the evidence against the offenders is insufficient to
hold them for trial, justly leads to the conclusion that the police
of the nineteenth precinct are either ignorant of their duty or
indifferent to its performance, or that, knowing it, they are
restrained from some cause or influence from executing 't, except
under the pressure of public complaint and exposure. Let the
matter be considered that this failure is either the result of
ignorance, riUful neglect or willful blindness or silence, there is,
in my mind, but one conclusion to be derived from the evidence
im t+his trial, that Captain Williams is, and has been, negligent of
his duty to the extent as charged of 'conduct unbecoming an
ficer."' And after the rendition of that opinion of a brother
commissioner you say that Captain Williams was found not
guilty? A. I would like tc read the brief submitted by Joe)
Erhart and Colonel Bliss and Elihu Root - you have it there.
Chairman Lexow.- You have a counsel there to attend to that
matter.
The Witness. —Very well; I voted not guilty.
Q. Then he was not acquitted, was he? A. I considered that
acquitted him.
Q. You considered that acquitted him? A. The motion was
made to find the man guilty, and it was not carried; I think he
was acquitted.
Q. Your official record shows from your trial books that the
vote stood for conviction, Commissioners Porter and VorheesA. Commissioner Voorhees wanted to give him a day's fine -
Q. And for acquittal, Commissioners French and McClave; is
not that the way it stood? A. Yes.
Q. Then when you said he was acquitted, are you correct in
that? A. I considered that an acquittal.
Q. That when two commissioners of the police board give their
solemn judgment that a man is guilty and vote for a conviction,
you consider because two others say no, that that is an acquittal?
A. The motion was on the question of guilt, and it was lost.
Q. Two voted for guilty? A. Yes, sir; and two not; it was not
carried.
Q. Do you consider that an acquittal? A. Yes, sir.
I Q. That is your idea? A. I think that is the parliamentaryt
rule.
Chairman Lexow. — We can understand that, Mr. Goff.
Q. That complaint to-day is in the police department just as it
was; it has never been disposed of? A. No; it is all there.
Q. And you voted for Inspector Williams' promotion to the




(@1.


JA peefrhlp, now  fithtandhig the exsece of this complant?
A. Yes, sir; that is right.
-Mr. WMooL- We have a new police coimnissioner now and he
may take the matter up.
Q. Speaking of the new commissioner, you are reported in tl~e
newspapers as saying that, you were always glad to votie wnitbl
your Tamumany colleagues in thie board, and that you always
found them right; is that so? A. I did not make it in that shape
at all; I am not responsible for what the newspapers state; I
have not seen it but I will state about what I said, that I did not
cons~der ft as a part of my duty as a Republican, to be an obstructionf fo the purpose of obstructing the business, as long as
there was no cause for 'It.
Q.  wil gt jst  hatyou did say? A. I said I had never
known them to offer to do anything wrong.
Q. It was in relation to a charge of unfair treatment in the
disosiionof appointments to Mr. McLean; do you remember,
tb4 — do you remember a charge having been made of unfairness n dealing with Mr. McLean, In the matter of apportioning
to him the numb~er of appointments? A. I think the Post news.
paper UMad that statement
9.Was it true? A. It was not true; I said it was a lie.
Q.You said what was a lie? A. The statement in the Post.
Th~iat there was no unfairness to Commissioner McLean? A.
They claimed there was unfairness, and I claimed there was no
ttkIn It; he was treated just the~ same as the rest.
Q. Alt that time you were repofted as saying that you were
ta thd habit of voting with your Tammany colleagues on the
board? A. I made that statement publicly; I said that because
( never knew them to offer to do tmything wrong, and Mr. McT-ean
has always voted with them, too, except on little triling matters;
eXC4t On minor mutters, there has been no material difference.
Q. YOU say there has been -no materia difference between the
commssiner? A. No material difference to amount to any&;on the whole, we were pretty nearly unanimous.
Q. On the -trial of the last captain that to-ok place; what cap
tain was that? A. Captain O'Connor was tried last; there has
been no decision in that case; there were 1,700 pages of testimony.
Q. Do you remember the trial of Captain Price and Captaiin
Martens? A. Yes, sir; very well.
Q. Can you tell us the result of that trial? A. Yes,% sir; in the
case of Captain Price, five days was the penalty and in the case
of Captain. Martens it was 30 days.
Q. And you signed the judgment in each case? A. I voted for
it; In the case of Captain Price, Comisoner MacLean agreed




702
with us and made the motion for five days penalty, and In  o
case of Ca(p:tsn Mweie  it was a question in his mind whether
he shovId be broken or not, and he moved to break him.
Q fl Dd vou hold an executive session before you announoedi
your deciwion? A. The commissioners did meet in Commistioner
Martin's room and went over the testimony.
b Did you take a vote in executive session before you tookl
avbtein publc? A. No, sir.
4 PId yqu express your opinion in executive session? A. We
disonsoed the testkimony in there.
And expressed your opinion as to how you would find
an1 vote? A. We all thought there should be a penalty.
Did you express an opinion that you would vote not
guilty, in each case in executive session? A. No, sir.
Q Did any comnnissdoner express that opinion? A. No, sit.
Q. Did any comnmissioner express the opinion that he would
vote gilty in each ease? A. I think they did.
Q. Waht comnmissioner was that? A. Said it publily-no,
I dott think so.
Q. Do you know It? A. I do not remember.
Q You were preset, were you not? A. Yes, sir-you mean
to aYV that one man said,I move to find them guilty," or
"I believe hiu to be gullty?"
Q. Yes. A. No; -there was no muoh srta-tement.
QY Yeou are sure of that? A. I think so; I do not remenber
of anythbing of the kind.
Q Does your memory fall you in such a recent occurrence?
A. No, sir; but I do not see the necessity of such a statement.
QI I do not ask you for the necessity; I ask you for the fact?
A. I do not remember.
W WIll you swear there was no expression of that kind?
A. I have no recoldletion of It.
Q. Never miind your reollection; do you swear there was
no pb&a exprJow? Al.. That is the best that I cam do.
Q1 It Is a handy thing for you, your recollection; will you
swear as a fact that, in executive session or secret session of
the boand, before the vote was ai~mo'ncedd in pftibic, that one
com   issioner in that board, did not announce his intention
and his opinion of voting guilty, and that the defendants were
guilty? A. No, sir; I do not think so.
Will youl swear that such expression was not made?  &
I have no such recollection; that is the beat I can swear to
By Senator Bradley:
Q Would you remember if It occurred? A. I think I wOOM
remember if it occurred.




Dy hM. Goth
Q. If it occurreied, yu Vifn yos woeid ha"  iimmWt  d >1t
ILYes, sir.
Q. Will you say that a commissioner did not say that the
were each guilty and should be dismissed from the foree? A
No, sir; no coumini.oner made any such statement
Q. And   Commisioner MacLean said that Captain Prio
should have five days-did any commissioner at the secret set
sion say that each of the eaptains were not guilty and shoald
not be fined? A. No, sir.
Q Tht was not said? A No, sir.
Q Was not the judgment of the comsiorers in that ease
the result of a compromise? A. I think not
Q. Wil you swear it was not? A. Yes, si
Q Positively? A. Yes, sir.
Q. It was not the result of a compromie of eomficting
pinion had in secret sesion? A. No, sir; I tink there Was
lo compromise.
Q. Never mind what yes iik; w2ia is the fact? A. I say
positively there was so con~rsed     if Jyou wil per  _ _mI
to tell the whoie a-                    -
41'NRNOON      EIO1
PQrsent.-t e empiete Senate committee and aounsel a
Wieore.                                      -
M   Niooll —Before the coumittee droeeds wih the fie efam
tlon of Commissioner MCIGtve, I wiah to very triefly make a
Uatement to corect what must have been an a  tei     a misrepresentition of remnart  that I made to the  mmttee ab the
opening session of the morning in certain of the pibe journ&s.
I am reported as havig said, witi some presumed knowledge of
whs  thereabount, that the witness Gatnger would never agd.n
appear before the corimittee. I believe tihe commttee will
ameept my dedaation' that I know noating abont the witness
Granger, nor do my client. He was with Mr. Goff, as Mr. Goff
zted, utaffi a late bmur last nigh% amd thiat he was cofidently
expected by him, as he was by me, to appear before the commrttee here this mnornng. Now, that I wanted himn to appear,
tht I was most.anxious to have him appear, that I am most
anxious to have him appear, there is no matter of doubt  I went
over with Mr. Moclave last night and had in my possession the
prwtas of 20 forgeries




704.
Mr. Go~ff.- Ts that proper?
Chaimen1exorw.-No, that is not That Is not right~ 
Nicoll; it is not rigt for the reaso~n that it is a sped&~ of
inerhuhiation as Wge  I our witnesses. We are bound to pro
tedt him. We expect him bere  We hrave no reason tob frM4e
he won't appewarst some time; anid it is xvt right that any statement be made iath will notifjy te witness tkat there aire eiflher
orimii proewosilbten~fdk or anything of that kind. It
must have the elteet of meking the witness appeur.1 bgjs  is
will,, or not uit all.
Senator Oanbotr.-But he hsnot. appeared.
Mr. NICooL-41e is now in oomtunpt ot tbLe ooMnitteft 
L-exoxw.- We wMl aittend to the commiittee part of tf.
Mr. Nioo4I.-He is now guilty of a crime toww&d the coonuittee(liairmanm Lexow.-We understand this, that every nman that
goes on the stand here befotre this committee, takes his repuit&
tilon and almost his lIfe in his bhand; and we are bornid to pro-.
tect hmif we can.
Mr. Niooll.-Will you not permit me to at least state TI
myself have reasons for desk'ing the appearainoe of the witness.
Senator O'Oonnior.-No, it is rnot necessairy. If you state yon
desire l% that is enougb. There is no reason for your stadn~g
youor reasons for desiring it. I thinak it is entirely out of order.
If yo a   mlprwted it is paxwer that yoru shuxld correet tbe
misireprenibation, but otherwise, it is improper that you should
say what you did say.
Camn Lexowe —Let iu oontiuue,
John Me~lave, again takes the stand,
Dfrect emntinby Mr. Goa:
Q. Before you left the court room l-ast evening, you threatened
to ha've Granger arrested, did you 'not? A. I dokxt aboutth;
I niay have said he ought to have been.
Q. Answer the question, sir; did you not threaten to have hi
airreste, it lie aippe~ared here in the morning? A. I said that ha
ought to be arrested.
Q. Didn't you say you would arrest him? A.. No, I did not
Q. Will you swear, Mr. MeOlave, that you didl not say you would
ha-ve 1dm arrested- and sent to States prison? A. Not this
morning.
Q. Didn't you say last evening in the courtroom, and with
clenched fist, icai-ng across that table, while Groa~gcir
was passing, to hear that you would have him arrested and sent
to State's prisson, by God; didn't you say that? A. No; 1 did not
use such language at all.




705


Q. Will you swear ya ddl not? A. Yes, sir; I will swew I
did not make tiht statement in the way you are putting it.
Q. Will you swear you did not state in his hearing? A. In
whose hearing?
Q. In Granger's hearing, while he passed this table last evening, that you would send him to State's prison, where he ought
to be? A. I did not speak to him.
Q. Didn't you speak to me while Grangei stood at this side
of the table, and with clenched fist say, I will send that fellow
to State's prison; didn't you say that? A. I don't think I did.
Q. Will you swear you did not? A. No, I won't.
Q. No, you will not? A. No.
Q. Now, Mr. MeClave, yourself and ymir onmsel here have
spoken of this witness Granger, wthom, ( may ask the commit
tee's pardon to say, that within 48 hours, was the first time I
ever saw the man 'n my life- you and your counsel have stated
here something about foregries in oonnectin wi. this wma
C(ranger, haven't you? 
Mr. Nicoll.- I have.
Q. You have? A. Mr. Nicoll has made t ha sit tate t
Q. Haven't you said he was a forger; you said yesterday hi
ourt, and addressed the committee, and called him a forger?
A. Yes; that is what I called him.
Q And your counsel stood up here in court yesterday eveming
and shook a number of papers in his hand at the witnesfs, did
he uot; you saw that? A. I did; yes, sir.
Q. And did you not state to a gentleman here in the court
room that those were the forged instruments; the forged papers
you had reference to? A. I do not remember whether I did or
not.
Q. Will you swear you did not? A. No. 
Q. How long have you'had those forged papers, if they ar
forged, in your possession? A. Well, they have been in the po.
session of Messrs. Parsons, Shepard & Ogden.
Q. How long have they been in the possession of you or your
counsel, or anybody connected with you in any manner without
criminal proceedings? A. Some have run along a year and some
a week or two.
Q. You testified you found lie was a forger within thirty daym
of his marriage? A. Yes, sir; that is true.
Q. Did you get the forged instrument in your possession? A
It is the note he claimed Mr. Judd gave him.
Q. You have had that note for six years? A. I have his state
ment.;L       89




706


Q. You were convinced of his truth, were you?  K Aocoding
to his own statementsQ You were convinced of his truth? A. I rvas satisfled he
was telling me the truth; and it was when he told me, 'hat that -
Q. You kept that forged instrument in your possession for six
years, did you not? A. I do not know where it was during those
years, but possibly it was in the hands of counsel.
Q. It was either in your hands or the hands of your counsel?
L Yes, sir.
By Senator O'Connor: 
Q Did you ever say anything to Mr. Judd about that note?
A. No, sir.                            I.
Q. Or about the forgery? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever say anything to him, or commnnlcate with
him in any way in reference to that alleged forgery? A. No, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
t Did you present the note for payment? X. No, t; Mr.
Judd sent word to me last nightt and he was here this murning.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Were there any other papers alleged to be f&rged by
Granger? A. Well, there are a whole lot of cheeks.
Q. And in whose possession have these checks been; yourself
or your counsel? A. They have been in my own hands, or my
counsel's.
Q. And covering a period of some three or foar yeare? A. I
should think so; yes.
Q. When did Granger leave your house? A. The 22d of February.
Q. Of this year? A. Yes, sir.. And for six years, this man whom you believed to be a
forger, and of whose forgery you had what you considered written
evidence in your possession, was a member of your family for six
years? A. I so stated; I was trying to reform for a member of
my family.
Q. He was a member of your family for six years? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he ate at the same table with you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he went to the country with you, to your country house?
A. Yes, sr.
Q. And he partook in all the pleasures and relaxations of your
family? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this forzer, you kept by you in your house, a member
of your faiLiii0 f,;- al,-it six years? A. Substantially so, yes, sir.




707


Q. Xnd you never threatened to send him to State's prison,
until last night, until he testified against you? A. I told him a
number of times he either properly belonged in the Stae's
prison, or in the lunatic asylum; and he said he would go to
either place, it didn't make any difference.
Q. Did you take any steps last night to initiate proceedings
against him? A. I have not.
Q. Have you authorized them? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you authorized anyone to take proceedings against
him criminally? A. Mr. Nicoll talked with me last night, and
what he has done about it, I do not know.
Q. Haven't you advised about taking criminal proceedings
against Granger? A. No; but on the contrary, I have tried to
avoid it.
Q. Didn't you last night? A. I did not advise such a thing.
Q. Were you advised? A. I am inclined to think Mr. Niooll
said that was the proper course to pursue.
Q. Was he ever in your business? A. No, sir.
Q. This Granger? A. No, sir.
Q. Did he ever represent you in any business? A. No, sir.
Q. In any capacty? A. No, sir; you mean my regular lumber
business, don't you?
Q. I am asking you in any business? A. I put him in a small
business, to try and:At him have a chance to make some living.
Q. That is the Yankee White Manufacturing Company, that
business which you expected-well, the man is dead, I do not
wish to mention his name-to go-in with you? A. A man to go
in with me?
Q. Yes, to put stock in? A. No, there is no truth in that,
Q. Did you expect Martin B. Brown to go into that? A. No.
Q. Did anybody go into the company with you? A. No, sir; I
never started it for that purpose.
Q. You filed a certificate of incorporation? A. Yes, I signed
it.
Q. You put Mr. Granger in as secretary? A. Yes.
Q. And you swore to the certificate of incorporation? W. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you put in as an incorporator, under the laws of the
United States, and swore to it, the namne of a man you believed
to be a forger, is that so? A I know he was there named.
Q. Answer my question, sir? A. And I told you that I was
trying to redeem him, and see if I could not help him get along.
Q. Will you please answer my question; did you, with the
alleged forged instruments in your possession for a period of four
yearls, with a knowledge that this man was a forger, as you




claim, did you insert his name or cause it to be inserted as the
secretary of the Yankee White Manufacturing Company, a corporation under the laws of this State; did you or did you not?
A. I presume that will sapeak for itself; I do not recall it; I know
he was in it
Q. Don't you know he was secretary? A. He was secretary;
yes, sir.
Q. Don't you know you signed that certificate? A. I presume
I did; I do not remember it.
Q. And don't you know that at the time that this forger, and
this scoundrel, and this thief, as you call him, was employed in
the house of Messrs. Blumenthal Brothers, the dry goods merchants? A. At that time?
Q. Yes? A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't you get him to leave Blumenthal & Company's to
attend to the Yankee White Manufacturing Company? A. No,
ir; that is not true.
Q. Was he there in Blumenthal- A. About two weeks, I
think.
Q. Didn't you recommend him to appointment in the post-office?
A. I asked for his appointment.
Q. Did you recommend him to Van Oott? A. Yesi that is
right
Q. Into the post-office? A. Yes, sir.
Q And you recommended into The Federal service of this coun,
try your son-in-law, who was a forger, a thief and a scoundrel;
is that so? A. I had at that time the impression that he had
reformed; I had a very serious talk with him, and he had promised, absolutely and positively that he would never do anything
wrong again; and, as I told you, I was trying to correct him; I
tried to give him a chance.
Q. That was before you got him to be secretary of this Yaakee
White Manufacturing Company? A. I do not remember the
year.
Q. It was before? A. Perhaps it was
Q. Did he backslide again after that? A. Oh, yes.
Q. And notwithstanding his additional backsliding, you then
put him in as secretary of this manufacturing company? A. I
will make a long story short by saying to you that he has been
guilty of every crime under the calendar, and I have tried to
redeem him, and do my best; that is all; he is a member of my
family and my daughter's husband; I tried to correct him.
Q. We understand your situation; have you got those bankbooks? A. Mr. Gott. (Mr. Gott produces bankbooks.)




g909
Q. Will you be good enough to tell me the first summer that
you take up your residence at Greenwich, Coindeutiou, or up in
that neighborhood? A. Only last year, sir.
Q. Did you ever reside in that place, or in that neighborhood
or locality for the summer? A. No, sir;I resided at Black Rock,
Connecticut, two years.
Q. Well, Block Rock?   A. Yes, sir; that is this side of
Bridgeport.
Q. What is the first summer you went to reside at Blael
Rock? A. I think it is four years ago.
Q. Four years ago; that would be in the unmmer of 1890?
A. That would be about if, I think; yes,sir.
Q. Did you become acquainted with your brokers, Dominick &
Dickman, up there? A. No, sir; I knew them long before that
Q. They resided up there? A. No, sir.
Q. In that neighborhood? A. No, sir; I never knew them to
reside up there; I never saw them at all.
Q. Or any of th firm? A. No, sir; not to my knowledge; if
they were living up there, I did not know of it.
Q. Were you in the habit of meeting anyone of the firm on the
train coming down? A. No, sir; last summer when I was going
up to Greenwich Point, once in a while I would meet one of them
on the train; perhaps two or three times during the summer.
Q. Do you remember having a conversation with any of the
members of the firm in relation to this lead stock? A. I do not
recall any, sir.
Q. In the train? A. No, sir; I do not recall any at all.
Q. You remember one morning going down in the train, that
portion of it that was caluId the Club car; you frequented that
portion, didn't you? A. I was in there, perhaps twice during
the summer.
Q. Not last summe, but in 1890? A. That was the only time
I was in it.
Q. You never was in that car in 1890? A. That car did not
run at that time, nothing but the ordinary traveling cars; I did
not meet Mr. Dickman on a traveling car.
Q. Did you meet Mr. Dominick, his partner? A Dominick &
Dickman is the firm.
Q. Did you ever meet either of those gentlemen in 1890? A.
I don't think that I did, sir; I might possibly have met them on
the car, but I don't recall it; they did not live where I was living
at all.
Q. Up in that locality on the line of that railroad? A. We
did not go on the same train; if they lived up in that neighborhood, we did not go in the same train.


}




tno
Q. Did you meet either of them? A. I think not, sir.
Q. You are clear on that? A. I am quite clear.
Q. I refresh your recollection by asking you if you did not
discuss with them, in the morning coming down in the car,
relating to the prospect of a rise in the lead stock? A. I have
no recollection of it; I might have done so, if I met them.
Q. At that time in 1890, you were carrying the account of the
police pension fund, in the Bank of North America, were you
not? A. The book shows that, does it? If the book shows that,
that is correct.
Q. The last balance I see is October 22, 1890, and then there
are items, up to December 31st, 1890? A. Well, that is correct,
then.
Q. That is correct? A. Yes.
Q. It runs up to 1891? A. Well, whatever it shows, Mr.
Gof, is correct.
Q. Now, the checks upon this account, the police pension
fund, are signed by you? A. By myself and the treasurer's
bookkeeper; yes, sir; it is first signed by the treasurer's boo1 -keeper, and brought to me for my signature.
Q. Where does he sign it? A. He signed across the face of
them.
Q. What does he sign?    A. George B. Gott, treasurer's
bookkeeper; his signature is in the bank in connection with
the treasurer.
Q. Does he fill out the name of the payee on the check? A.
Yes, sir; he fills out the payees name on the check always.
Q. Do you instruct him who to fill out to? A. No, sir.
Q. How does he know who to fill out to? A. He has his records
before him in the books.
Q. So you have nothing to do but sign the check he prepaired? A. Yes, sir; that is all.
Q. Can you tell where the bank was situated-the Bank of
North America? A. The Bank of North America was somewhere in Wrall street, near William and Nassau, I think; Mr.
Dowd was the president of it, if I remember.
Q. Can you state if it was in 1890, the first summer you went
to reside at Black Rock, that you then drew your check for
the purchase of these hundred shares of lead stock? A. Well,
I don't just remember the year, 3Mr. Goff.
Q. T call your attention to the year, to the coincidence of
your residence for the first season at Black Rock, and the
drawing of tils check to the order of Dominick & Dickman?
-A. If you tell me ahout the year that the National Lead Trust
was formed, I can tell yon that, better; but I do not recollect
the date; I can not recollect four or five years.




f11
Q. I ask you, if you can not locate that as the summer you
drew that check to purchase that stock? A. No; I could not
locate it in that way.
Q. Can you locate the year? A. The only way I tell you I
can locate the time I first bought the National lead stock was
somewhere about the time the company was organized, and I
bought some of it, and I kept it for an investment until they
reorganized the company, and gave so much of this preferred
stock, and so much of common stock for it.
Q. Have you got your private bankbook here on the Bowery
bank? A. You had it yesterday; you told me if you wanted it,
you would let me know.
Q. I understood you, you would bring it down? A. I understood you last evening, if you wanted it, you would let me know.
Q Is the book here? A. No, sir; I will get it for you.
Q. You can state to me if your bank-book upon the Bowery
bank at that time contained an entry of the returned voucher,
or the amount of the returned voucher, for the check you drew
for that lead stock? A. Well, that I can not tell you.
Q. Is it not the usual course of business of that bank to do
so? A. If I give a check on that account on that bank, it will
show on the opposite side of the deposit bookc
Q. You swore you did give a check yesterday for that purpose
on that bank? A. On that bank, because I hadn't any other
bank acount 
Q. In either one of the two accounts the return on that voucher
will be shown? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Oan you tell the committee where that voucher is that yoie
sent to Dominick & Dickman? A. Well, if it is back tc the date
you are stating, in 1890, it was destroyed by fire.
Q. Can you tell this committee how it was that your vouchers,
checkbooks and account-books, and all other books were destroyed
by that fire, and that your bankbook was not destroyed by that
fire? A. The personal bankbook, which I handed you yesterday,
goes back to 1889; that is the personal bankbook; now, any stubs,
or anything of that kind, that we might have at that time were
simply piled upon the shelves in the office, and when the fire took
place they were all destroyed; there were fully a truckload of
them destroyed; the checkbook, however, was in the little steel
safe, in the middle office, and the fire did not get to it.
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. You mean the blankbook?  A. Yes, sir; I stated that was
two years' transaction of a personal account




712
Q. Was ftie checkbooi that you then had in use aestnoyed iby
the fire? A. All those books were destroyed.
Q. All destroyed? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you any objection to an examination by a represenfative of this committee any person that they should designate?
'A. No, sir; not the slightest
Q. To examine the vouchers of the police pension fund, together
with your stubs, and such other accounts in connection with that
matter? A. I would be very glad indeed to have you do it, and
will aid you in any way I possibly can at any time.
Q. Have you been able to arrive at any more definite conclusion touching the amount of the check that you drew to the
brokerage? A. Which one do you mean?
By Senator Bradley:
Q. The lead stook?
By Mr. Goff:
Q. The lead stock? XA T can not positively as to that amount
Q. Yon estimated yesterday about $6,800? A. I was calculating -$6,800 -I think I estimated the 100 shares of the preferred,
didn't I, at $6,800; I think there was 200 shares of the common;
I think -tat was 34, making a count of about $12,000 or $13,000;
I tell you how I can get at that better; that stock was sold by
Dominick & Dickman when I bought the property at Greenwich
last February; the result of the sale was about, I think, $14,000.
Q. You made on the stock? A. No; that is the whole value of
it.
Q. You made on the stock? A. No; that is the whole value et
Q. Give about the aggregate amount of that check that you
drew to them? A. That stock may have been bought at different
times; it may not have been all bought at -ice.
Q. On all your purchases which you made you sent down your
check? A. I fancy I did; that would be the natural way to do it
Q. You say that is the way? A. Yes; I think so.
Q. You sent down your check? A. That is my best recolle.
tion of it.
By Chairman Texowi
Q. Didn't you say before you drew a check on your business
account, and paid for the stock by that check, and afterwards
replaced that amount in your business account by a check on
your private account? A. At different times, as a rule, I did that
Q. Didn't your recollection extend to this particular transao




713
tton of lead stock; didn't yoa say that was the way? Ai I t!hln
I calculated or estimated the amount was about so muc; the
whole amount of the lead stock was about $14,000 when it was
sold; it had been bought at different times, b  it was ad all at
once; I had been buying it for three or four yeara
t   By 1M. 'Go.
Q What the chairman wants bt lEnow, if you can reollect the
partular transactions, touching the purchase of this lead stock
that you drew a chek upon your private account, and deposited
in your general or business acoure.t, to make up for the draft on
your business account? A. The only way I could get at that
at all, would be to say that along about $6,000 or $6,500, somewhere in that neighborhood, that that amount of stoek would
cost; that I must have drawn a cheek for that amount.
By Senator O'Connom
Q I understood you stated yesterday that that private aeiount
conisted of matters connected with your salary as police commissiner, and als matters connected wth your speculafions in
stock and other matters? A. Yes, sir; and the aggregate
amount shows $64,000 there
Q. You intended to put in your private account all matters
connected with your salary and ouside speclations? A. Yes,
sir; I never used any of my salary for Hving prposes at all; never
dtring my expen eie  n tpublia ie.  I wsed w y fy   r   at
purpoS      "     -
By Mr. Gof:
Q. Now, are you deaupo  n wlich d thae aboomta you drew the
check the private or the bseine atpout? A. I wOald not say
poitively about that, Mr. Go.; brt f you have ay tfea that it
is in any book acmedted with the polic department, I an very
clear about thaf.
Q. I did not ask that questio n at af. y 'asb t Mi Mtday tat
you drew the check upon yar busiaem aeamt ia the Bowery
WNatioal? A. That is my imnretai     refe   e to it; I think
tie ohances are I drew a dceck an the B we_ bank on the buMs
ness accomit, ad drew a check on my private acont
Q H      any thought since refreshed yowr  emiwy, concerning
the tcansaxtion; do you wish to modty It?      I have not
thwght of it since, air, except as you are putting the queade
Lt. O




Wa save youz any 'desrie oa reason to modify that aaawer?
i thiak I have given mny amewmr to the best of my refoolection.
Q By the way, at the time you were appointed police co misponer, was there a I     _on ame lwnbec-pzd prVperty.? 
I o, sir.
Free and dear? XAMS7 sit
Q.Never was martgapd?           f FX lng inlS In!M4 orl5, wheui
I bought ost my br'dther's interest  gave him a mortgage at
Uiat time., ruImlg for two yeam
Q. Is the otin on tbat paper yem         ignature? ~
Yer~, sir.
Q Whose In the second last uignaue on tbat pope? I~
Next to the last?
Q. Yes? A. Gidemos Grannezr
Q. What are the others? A. John M leaveo Steve Memayet
Gideom Grangert and Albert Memlave.
Q. That Granger is your eon-hn-law, who was on the stand here
to-day? A. Yes, sir.
Q You were the promoter of that company? A. Yem da
Q You put in all the noney? A. Yes, sir.
Q Nobody else put in a dollar? A. Nobody,
Q Notwithstanding the law, you were the only one tukt put,ay money in thalt concern? A. I think that was drawn by the
law fim of, and they issued the stock required by law.
Q. They did not put In any mney? A. I gave them some
Stoc1k
Q. And thi Is the Granger we have reference to, and t oiu 1.
the company you organized with him as incorporator? A. Yes;
that is right
Q. And the date of this   was on theih   of a!5 rs,1891?  ~
Well, whatever the date Is Is correct
Q. And he was married into your family when? A. Eighteen
hundred and eighty-seven.
Q. So that four years after youT discovery that he was a forger,,you signed this certificate of incorporation withh him as an incorporator? A. Well, Mr. HoffQ. Is that so or not? A. You are putting the question down
as to my actual discovery of his being a forger; I had only, as I
stated before, his own acknowiedgmmt of the fact; betycmd that
I made no inquiry at alL
Patrck J. Daly, called as a witness on behalf of the ~tatt%
being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. GofMf
Q. You are a marine? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where are you stationed? A. In the Brooklyn marina
barracks.




715
Q. Brooklyn? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have been on escort duty to Boston recently, have yod
not? A. No; I have not
Q. Didn't you go to Boston at the time you wrote? A. No, sir;
I did not go. 
Q. The orders were countermanded? A. Yes; the orders werd
countermanded for me to go; another man took my place.
Q. I wish you to tell this committee of your experience on the
Bowery about a month or six weeks ago; just tell them in your
own way anything that -just speak up? A. On the 19th day of
April last, between 3 and 4 o'clock in the evening, I visited Newi
York city and went on the Bowery, and I went into. a saloon oni
the right hand side going toward Third avenue; when I entered
this saloon IQ. Can you give the number of it? A. That is one particular
flaw in my evidence that I can not positively identify the number
of the saloon.
Q. Do you know between what streets it was? A. No, sir;
I can only give a very hazy idea of the location of the saloon.
Q. Was it near Chatham Square? A. It was five or six blocks
above Chatham square.
Q. On which side of the way up, as you went up? A. On the
right-hand side of the way facing towards Third avenue; I went
into a saloon, and see there was a back room in it; I entered this
back room and see a female in the back room; I sat down at a
able, of which there were a number in the room; tables with
chairs around them, and a woman immediately came there from
another table and sat down beside me; I called for a round of
drinks; I believe I took beer myself and the woman had port win -;
the drink amounted to 20 cents; I paid for it in some loose change
I had in my pocket and I called for another round; after an inter,
val, about half an hour, I called for a third round, and I tendered
a two-dollar bill in payment of it.
Q. For the last round? A. For the last round, the third round;
the bartender took the two dollars from me and witn out1 and as
he was some time absent without returning any dhan& -the
drink in question was a glass of beer and another giass of port
wine - about 10 minutes afterwards I began to be Wueasy for the
change, and I reminded him about it, and he came in. with twq
10-cent pieces and placed them on the table before me; it
appeared to me like an outrageous piece of robbery that he was
about to contemplate, so I was very indignant, and remonstrated
with him, and demanded the exact change of him, the two-dollaz
bill; he only laughed at me; he went out behind the bar, and 1l
brought the two 10-cent pieces and put them on the bar and said,




of",e we Me propm clag    and when he laughed at me again,
I took ~the  'Ztwo "m and tVwew them behind the ban, and I si
"Theaj ar4 useless to me, I want myr proper change; you can
make as exaybitanit a demand as you like, but that is carrying too
far -$2 for two drinka" as so on as I threw the two 10-mant
piece behind the bar, he gave a signal and two men knocked me
down and proceeded to beat me, and I thought discretion was
the better part of valor, and I beat an ignominious retreat; I
went~ down the Bowery about one block and met a polic~m-en,
and I told the policeman of the incident and requested him to
accompany me back to the saloon in order to get my redress; the
policeman said to me, a1 Have you got any witnesses? " TI was
forced to admit I had no witness; the policeman told me tha tin
a mms like that there wast no use unless you had witnesses, and
I thought- I did not believe what he said, and I thought I
would test it funrther; I went to the Eldridge Street police stationi..imd there was an officer there; I was not bound on taking detafils;
r guess he was a very prominent officer in the police departmwutp
be m~ight possbly be a captain of the precinct.
Q. He was behind the desk? A. He was behind the deAk
Q. And had gold lace on his hat, doyou remrember? A. I C
xuet take in those details.
Q. Well, go on. A. I recounted the circumstances to him, anud
he asked me the same question the policeman did, did I have wV.
aesses; I was forced to admit I had no witness, and be thereupon
said there was no use, I hadiit a ghost of a chance to oibtan any
redress; I then went to the police headquarters in Mulberry
streetI avd determined to carry, the matter uph because I wasf
justly 'Indignant at the way I was treated; a police officer received
me there and spoke to me very civilly
Q. Do you know what room you were shown Into there? A.I
do not.
Q.Do you know the officer or the grade of the officer whichi
you spoke to? A. No, sir; I do not; I do not know the grade.
Q. You saw no official there? A. I saw an official there.
Q. He was in uniform? A.. He was in uniform; he spoke to me
in a very civil manner, and when I told him the circumstances~
of the ease, he told me, as I had no witnesses, I had no chance of
obtaining any redress; he made no promise to me; he would invefligate it; and I thereupon left.
Q. Did you tell the officer at the police headquarters whab. the
offlcer on the beat head said to you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what the officer in the bt~io-n-biouse had sad to you?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Did the offlicer at police headquarters say anything about
thome fellows down there getting a loit of witniesses to swear




71',


againat you If you took any prooeedings? Al. Yes, sir; he ma&i
use of one remark of that nature.
Q. State to the coinmiit-bee what he said? A. He said itb fl,
"boy, you had better not push this matter amy furdtler, bemause
for one witness yom would bring up, thesie people would bring
Q. And that was the end of your pilgrimage to the Bowle~r
A. It had a very sad endiug&
Qms-exambnation by Mr. NEo!:
Q.Wbat is your -name? A. My name is Pafrlof Jolin IW1.
Q Patrick John David? A. Daly.
Q. When did you write a letter to Mr. Gtff, retailing your
grievances? A. I don't know the date, sir.
Q About when? A. I guess it would be about two weeks ago6
Q About two weeks ago? A. Yes.
Q Had you a personal acquainhmoe with Mr. Goff? A. NXW
sir; Idid not
Q. You wrote'to him because you saw he was counsel for the
Senate investigating committee, was that it  A. No, sir; I was
not aware that he was acting in that capacity at all.
Q. Did you write to bim as a lawyer to take up yourocase? A.
No, sir; because a certain person told me to go to his office and
they -would meet there in order to push the case; so I didn't
wantQ. You wrote to him then in order to get him to take up your
case against the people; whom you thought had defrauded you?
A. No I wrote to him for a reverse reason,to ask him tc drop
the case, to say I thought I hadn't sufficient grounds to go on
with the case,
Q. You wrote 1U Mr. Goff. to droT. the case? A. Yes, shr.
Q. Had you asked him previously to take up the case? WNo, I heard the Society for the Prevention of Crime were going
to take it up, and for that reason I wrote to Mr. G1ff.
Q. Who did you hear that fron, that the Society for the Pre
vention of Orime was going to take up the case? A. An agent
called at the barracks, and told me that he was negotiating with
Mr. Groff to push it
Q. What was his name? A. I don't know what his name was.
Q He said he was negotiating with Mr. Gogf? A. To carry
the matter throu.gh.
Q. T push the matter through? A. Yes.
Q. Up to that time, you did not-know Mr. Goff, did you? AL
No, sir.




718


Q. Then you went to his office to ask him to drop the case?
NA. No; I wrote a letter to his office, to ask him to drop the caae,
Q. Have you ever seen him before? A. No, sir.
Q. Until to-day? A. No, sir.
Q. What was the day of the month when tfis excursion in the
Bowery occurred? A. It was on the 19th day of April, sir.
Q. And at what hour of the day, did it take place? A. To
the best of my knowledge, sir, it was between 3 and 4 'clock
in the evening.
Q. To the best of your knowledge? A. Yes.
Q. Have you any doubt about the time? A. Well, when I am
on an excursion on pleasure bent, I do not keep an, account of
the time.
Q. When you are on an excmuson i on pleasure bea, you don't
take any note of time? A. No.
Q. Well, are you able to give us within a few hours of the
time? A. Yes, sir; I have already given you between one hour;
it was between half-past 3 and half-past 4, or between 3 and halfpast 4.
Q. You speak of being upon an excursion on pleasure bent;
was that your purpose in going to the Bowery? A My purpose
was to enjoy myself; I had a day off. 
Q. You went to the Bowery to enjoy yourmelf? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How? A. Well, taking in the sights, as it is commonly
called.
Q. What sights? A. Well, the theatres, the dime museums,
probably, although they are -and I might -
Q. What? A. It would be quite a change from playing pro
sale in Brooklyn.
Q. It is quite a change from Brooklyn, you say? A. Yes, sir;
to walk the streets in New York.      1 
Q. You say it was quite a change from it A. Yes, sir; I
consider it pleasure to walk the streets in New York.
Q. Won't you accommodate me by speaking a little 'ouder; you
say you thought it would be a pleasant thing to go from prosale
Brooklyn to spend an afternoon in the Bowery? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you wanted to see the theatres? A. Yes, sir.
Q 'And the dime museums? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the bearded lady? A. Well, that is rather old.
Q. What else besides the bearded lady and the museums did
you expect to see in the Bowery? A. Well —
Q. What were the strange things you see in the Bowery? A.
Well, I think the stock of Bowery attractions would be exhausted
when the dime museums and theatres and saloons were gone
through.
Q. You think it would be exhausted? A. The stock attraction
would be exhausted.




719


Q. The -stock attractions wouid be exliausted with the theatres,
the museums and the saloons? A. Yes.
Q. Well, there arc ladies, too, in the Bowery, aren't them??
A. Oh, undoubtedly.
Q.What? A. Mostundoubtedly.
Q. Did you think of those, too, in the sto of attractieons?
I& I did not think very deeply upon them.
Q. You did not dwell urpon them very alosely? A. No; I did
not dwell upon them very ardently.
Chairman Lexow.- Haven't we e~rhonsted this subject, Mrs
Nicoll; time is valuable?
Mr. Nicoll.- We seem to have exhausted the stock of the amusemeuts. Mr. G-off says there is no more in this. At +he time you
went into the -saloon - by the way, where was the saloon? A.
The best idea I cOn give of the location of the saloon was, it was
possibly four or five blocks above Chathiam square, on the light
hand side going towards Third avenue.
Q. You have not a very clear idea of the time when you went
to the Bo'wery, and you have not a very clear idea of the place?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where this Mung occurred, have you? A..1 have not.
Q. What?  A. I have not a very clear idea nf -he time or
place; no, that tos the very reason they urged me to drop the
subject.
Mr. Nicoll.- Well, I guem we will drop it, too
By Mr. Gof:
Q. Did you ever hear the name of the proprietor of 'ie saloon?
A. Since that time?                                    i
Q. Yes. A. I have been told that the proprietor of that
saloon-                              i
Mr. NIcoll.- I object to this.
Q. Did you describe that place to any persons after you left
there; described the saloon? A. I did.
Q. And were you told the number of the saloon, and the name
of the saloon? A. No; I was not told the numbm of the saloon.
Q. Were you told the name? A.- I was tiM thie name.
Q. What was the name?
Mr. Nicoll.- Objected to.
Mr. Goff.- I think it to pnper, eoie  It Is cocneoted with
another matter.
By Senator O'Comnnor:
W. When was he told this?
Mr. Goff.-M-fter this incident Iaoo~ ]lae.
Chairman Lexow.-How long after it took ptaoe7




720


Mr. Goff.-The next day. I think it is proper, your honors
Q. Will you please state the name of the saloon? A. The
name of the saloon as told to me was McGirk's.
Q. Was there any other concert saloon, as you observed, O
that block? A. Yes; there were quite a number of them.
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. When you met the policeman first, could you have returned
bt that saloon? A. I could.
Q. And could you inform him where the place was? A. Yes;
I did.
Q. When you went to the station-house, the precinct sta
tion, did you inform them that you could point out the saloon
to them? A. Well, I did not, because it was not necessary:
the officer in the police station told me if I did not have the
witnesses, there was no use of going any further in the matter.
Q. Could you at any time have found the saloon again when
you went there? A. I could not possibly say I could have found
the saloon again, unless I could have identified the people' in
it; at the time I went to the Eldridge street station, I could
certainly have found the saloon, at the time I met the policeman first
Q. You so informed me you could tell where the saloon was?.. I did.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did you take the number of the policeman? X. I did not;
will you allow me to make a remark, sir?
Chairman Lexow.- Certainly.
The Witness.- I wish to make a remark that in this matter
that I did not consider the evidence in the case sufficient toI did not consider I had sufficient cause of complain* anyhow;
I thi tihat the loss of the twodollar bill was  ertainly an
xpeitemned loss, and would like b inform the members of the
aumnittee that I am an involmtary witness
QL An involmutar witness, ertainly; you are under subpoena
here? Ai Yes, sir.
John MClave resumes the stand.
Directexamination continued by Mr. doffi
Q. I notice on this book of the police pension fund that there
is not detailed statement of the returned vouchers on the fond
drawn? A. Well, you see the bank has put the aggregate amount
there; we have the vouchers.
Q. There is no detailed statement of the drafts upon the bank
X in 5..bo,? A.. That t vT.ld seem. to have been the systrem




of, the bank in putting downi the agrgae there was probably
about 1,200 there% and thlAt is Probbjrt reaso  t      gm rgatod It; the nubrof pensilomes is about 1,200, ande they hive
put down the aggregate there; but the vouchers can be got Mt
Q.What prvVeU do you make for ascertaining the deatbs of
mebers who are drain from the pension fund? A. There- is
a general order out Instrueting the captains of the various preeol~~ts that so far as it lays in their power to keep track of all
pensioners, and in came of their removal., or in case of their deat
to notfyl the central offie at once; now it sometimes hapn
that they move out of the city; and it sometimeshapn(la
they draw a check, that the checks are drawn quarterly, dated
on the firt of each month; it somnettines happens they draw a
check- for a particular person, say fqr $75, and when the first of
the month rolls a-round the party does -not appear for it, three,
or four, or five, or six days roll around and he don't appear, and
we maeinquiries, and perhaps fInd he has been dead four or
five days; the few checks you, speak of in the back of the book of
the Bank of North America - 16 different checks that you speak
of - I have receved a letter this morning from the treasureras'
bookkeeper in which he states to me that those cheelsm
Q. Wait awhile; we will have the treasurers bookkeeper here
himelqf?. ~Very well, Sir;, I will give you the letter, if yoru
want!
Q. You require every pensioner to go to headquarters to receive
his pension? K~ Exce~pting t&ow who live oat of the city, ailin.
cases of that character it is the teneral customs to first mail them
a receipt aidl after they sign a rect~lt and after that is recejied,
to them forward the chek.
Q.xRcepting that they are living out ot the city you require,
them to present theinseves, in perso? A. Yes, Sir.
Q.Before what officer? Al. They go to the treasurer's office
and go to the treasur~er book, and receive their cheeks and make
teidr receiipts there.
Q. What is the average amount of those checks - I mean
the amount ot each check; not the aggregate amount?
A. The checks raxnge all the way from $25 up; the
larger number of Them Is probal* about $150, being a quarter
of $600; *the patrolmen are KWtfre under the law on a pension of
one-half of their salary, aud there Is a larger proportion of peltromen retIred than any dtlier rank, and therefore, $150 was aon
oi the larger number.
Q. Have you any knowledge of ftamds comnm~ted, on the pew
aslo fun d? A.. Is hv never heard 01 fty such thing.




QHsit ever occurred in the depaitment thtthe yel~in_.1n
has been drawn for mem that hare died-? A. I never heard' o~f
such a thing.
Q Such a thing has never. been alleged or stated in the department? A. Ineverhbeard of it, Air.
Q.Is such a thing likely to occur under your sytmof bookkeeping? A. I don't think It to poaftie; I don'~t think it pose1 -bly oould occur.
Q.Do you make a report t o the City 3eocwdx to whom you pay
a peiio'n? A. Yes~ fr; an itemizdstatnent goes to theOCity
Beoord; and hInadto    to that an anulstatement to pdblfshed, &o'wing the sources of income to the pension fund, and
the dibrsmuleah Item in detaSI; the law provides for that
Q. You keep arecord of oous, oftallthe death.,%yonusay?  A.
Yes, sir.
Q. How do you get that record? A. The report of the deaths
Is made to the charman of the conittee on pensions by the
treasurers bookkeeper, as well as the report of those that are
retired during each of the three months; that report is brought
I Vy the ch ~na  fthe committee on pensions before the board
of police comsbnem, and Is read befm -the full board, and
-the chimnof the committee on pensions acts as the chairman
of the board of tr stees for that purpose; it Is then miade a
record of -in the secetary' book-? A. Yes.
rQ. Treoud of death'? A. Yes, sir.
Q  ilyou jileaae direct y~secretar~y to prodiioe here the
record of the death of Officer Jrohu lMurray? A.- How do you
spell that uaxne.
Q. M-u-r-r-a-y-Xm7Wr. ~    ayou give me the date of the
death?
q TbAt ewkak tlwant. K I0Mr.OChars         Pes QthInthe
room -wnil you take a memorandum of that, and call your
father's attention toD It
Q. Did you keep any book or memranum of your private or
business transactions outside of the bank book that you have
p~resentedi here? A. No, t
Q. so that you keplt no azeount of moneys that you invested or
what you invested them for, or anything of that kind? A.- My
h-veaments, I think that I can briefly dtate them, have been outolde of the houses that I have spoken to you of that I have bought,
very light Indeed havre not a-mounted to anything; running
through a peried of years, T could not tell you pogitively, but
I slho-ald say runningy along through a perio-d of years, 1-886) or
1881, I think, I bought back and forth a little consolida,'ted gas,




723
and during that time a ouple of aae   off and on a eaple of
hludred shares of the &Manhata' hares.
Q What would be the highest amount of any check you would
draw on the penion fund? A. The largest heek?
Q. The largest eheek at one time? A. The largest aA    t
would be the penaio that would be drawn by the superaendent of polie —;750.
Q. That would be the pension - $750?   A pension of $3000
a year.
Q. Did you receive the stock from Domiaick when yo   p u
chased? A. Oh, yes
Q. You received the stock? A. Yea
Q. And a memorandum? A. I think I did; but I had the stock
in my safe at my home, and Dominick & Dienan sold it when I
bought a year ago the property in Coniectitut
Q. Where did you have the stock? A. In my sae at my office.
Q. What office? A. Twenty-second street, the laiber office.
Q. When did the fire occur?. The fire ocurred April
12, 1893. 
Q. How is it that the stock was not destroyed withth e other
books and other papers? A. The lead stock?
Q. Yes; if you had It in the safe and all the other books in the
safe were destroyed, how is it that the stock escaped? A. I
presume that it was inside the steel safe; I think that would
allow for it
Q. Anything imside the steel safe? A. I think —I do not
recall it fobr a moaenet; natunily tha~ is where it would be, insde
the small steel safe; it would natmrally be in there, and that
arccounts for it
Q. Do you remember what you put inside the little steel safe
inside the regular safe? A. Nothing except bills reeivable
and money; they were kept in there for satekeepiug.
Q. How much money do you say you had paid for premiums
for insuranee; you stated  25,000? A. During that period of
thirty odd yea.rs; yes, sir.
Q. You  carried how   m uh  innuranoe? A. My insuance
rainged from $150,000 to 8$00,000 principal; on my mill property
it ranged pretty high.
Q. Did I utnderstand you to say that after 1892 you made in
your business $115,000? A. Yes, sir; I saM abiout 113,000; I
make ordinarily in my busine   about $50 000 or $60,000 a year.
Q. About 50,000 or  OO0O a           e  tat Is
my rentsa           A    -




724
Frfty thOIsanm d or aor 60,000 a yea?      Yes, si
Q And then you had yowr police salary? A. Yes, air.
Q. And at the rate you made in your busines, how mamy yeazw
-have you made that; since you have been police oomnmimoer
LA. I made it for quite a number of years; we make that o<r
iarily; oome year it may be abve, some years below; I Sdndd
thin  ou the average about W0,000 a year, iiutding the rent,
the rents nmiing along fom  20,000 to $25,000.
Q. Aide the rents to be excuded from yw $50,000 or included?
A. I saumd include them
Q. Tel me hw    mab yoa msu  ne t?   IA lMU atik     l
$50,000. 
Q. And for about the ast 10 year you lave nmde $50,000 a
year? A. Yea, sir; but some year, I might have a loas thai
would wipe the wole o t, 
QO One year you made $113,000?    Yeas. You made an average of $50,000 a year? A. I think m.
Q. For 10 year you made $500,000 in your business? A. Lee
my living, yes.
Q. You lived at abot that rate? A No; I lived a the rate,
if yon want me to state that -
Q. No; I ony want to know; you say yo are as rih to-day as
you were when you went o the police board? A. Yes; I should
tihink so. 
Q. And in the meantine you made $500,000 fn your busness?
2L If I made $50,000.
Q. You have made then $500,000 and yo are as poor as when
you went on the poice fore2 L     I aubat&n illn the same
posi.tion
By eseiara OCyomiort  '
Q. Does that include the salary.
'Mr. Gof —No; that does not include te e salary.
The Witnes- I think there may be an error on 'iat average
Q. I want to put one or two questions to you concerning these
riust acccunts, and then I will quit that subject; at the time in
1890 I assume now that you drew the check for this lead stock;
how many trust accounts had you on behalf of the police depart
ment of this city? A. In 1890?
Ye     A. Well, about the same number that we have now,
sir.
Q. State them  to me now, if you please? A The North
America bankbook, does that go bak to that date? 




725


Q   Xe. ~  Then It would be North  merica, the Tm~pertan~
a'nd Traders' and Garfield Bank, four of them.
Q. And how the account in the Bowery designatedT A. The
account in the Bowery up to about, I think, two years ago, was a
general police account; at that time the accounts were changed
so as bo keep the pension funds in one bank, the salary amcount
in another, and the alteration and supplies in another; the Gai'%
field Bank keeps the alteration and supplies and repair acc-ount.;
and the Importers adTraders' keeps the saary account of the
uioMe m besof the force; and the Bowery keeps the penson
a(Xoou~tm
Q. In' It the rule of the police department that the captai
is responsible for the good order of his precinctT A. Yes, Sir.
4.And if in that prchot, there being houses of HIl-fanme or
gamlin-huse;~ or dlsoderly houses of any description, he fs
responsible for Otht.9Ishe not? A. Well')I want to say right
in connectionQ. Well, please now - ~. Well, you maay put it In that w
if you choose.
Q. You putit? A. Iwillnmake thatstteent.
(4.Is that the faet? A. That is the rule; he isheld for the
general enforcement of the law In his precinct; it is a question
whether or not the houses of prottumcan ever be kept down
Strictly spakn; he Is supposed to do the -best he can.
Q. He'is only supposed to dothe.best he can? A. The verV
best possible &anyhody can. do.
Q. I1sn't there a positive rule in the department- A. That,he shall enforce the law in his precinct; that is the rule.
Q. Is I1t not also the rule In the department that if the exist-.
ence of housies of the character that I have described be proven
to exist in a captain's precinct, that that is of- itself neglect of.duty? A. I believe, air, If that was literally enforced
Q. That is the rule? A. Yes, if literally enforced.
Q. In the recent case of Captain Martens that was presented
to the board, are you acquainted with the facts In the case? A.
I remnember them substantially; yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember that Superintendent Byrnes prepared
charges against Captain Martens? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the nature of the charges? A. The
nature of the charge was substantially that a house of prostitar.
dion existed on Lexington avenue som-ewheres.
Q. Do you remember the name of the house? A. No, sir; I de
-not -recall that.
Q. If I mention it would you know it? 'A. I think It was
-called by a number, but I do not think It was called by name.




726
Q. Was there more than one house alleged?  A.I think there
was two or three.
Q. There were lire. A. I don't remember.
Q. The board dkwected Superintendent Byrnes to present
charges? A. No; the superintendent presented them without
instructions.
Q. And it is the~ ritij of the -board when the superintendent
prefer a  hretey must take coognlzan~ce of those charges?
A. They have the discretiom, but thiey ailways approve of the
charges and put tihe otfficer on trial; I liave krwwn off an, instance
to the ccrnbrary.
Q., They m~ust know of the charges to such an extent as to
approve of them and call them to trial? A. Yes, sir; they have
such a discrtion but they dio not exercise it
Q.When Superiintbsmdent Byrnes preferred charges against
Caiptakn Martens did the comnmzissioners approve of the charges?
A. Yes, sir; he was placed on trial.
Q.I do notnmwanthe-time he was tried;I wish to make myself
plain; I have referece to the charges that were presented by
Superin tendent Byrn~w  recently  agalnmt Captain  Martens?
A. Yes,
Q. Within 30 days? A. I do not recolledt that that was a
charge, Mr. Goff; was it?
9.Do~n't yon remiember Superintendent Byrnes put in writing
tie ehiwgea against Omptain Martens? A. Well, now, I think,
fkpsyon are corrftt &bout that. I did not recall it
Q.And don't you remember the commlssioners refused to
— approve of those charges? A. I remember that the ease was
before the board; it was discussed, and in view of that fact that
the stsatement had been mu-de that Inspector Williams had
visited the place and knew about 1't the law directed tih't
Inspector Williams make a report as well'as Captain MwrtenB, he
made a report hack to, the board; after those reports were boh
received It would seem, a~s if &e casptain really had not b~een
guilty of neglect of duty sufficient to -put him on 1his Irki, and
th~at he had done about all that coquld have been expected of him.
Q. So that, the conmmissionr put aside the charges of SuperIntendent Byrnes, and referred them first, to Inspeotor Wifllms.
and, secondly, the man who was accused, Captain M~artens; Is
that so? A. I think, Mr. Goff -
Q.Tsn't that so? A. One moment; I prefer to state thisQ.I aim Informed, Mr. Commis%,Ioner, thiat I have been In error
and thiak you have been In error? A. I think likely; -there wa&
no charges made was there?
Q. Suppose we go to the fact that instead of Superi-ntendent




727


Byrnes makig the cxarges, that Oomninssi-oarer Mdcjme   made
the chaLrges? A In stba~ eame ate siperhitendent was ordered
to make the report.
Q. I think yOU said Inspeotor Williams?  A. The supewntenden~t was first ordered tb make the report; he mnaie& a report
back to -the c   -m-nssAonore; aoooxnpaziykg that report was a
report from Captain M"artemS im referemee to It.
Q. The offike  acawsed? A. Yes; and when they eame before
*te board it bad tbee= aubed In the newspapers that Inspector
Wlhiazns had been at tihat place; the law directed he should
aluo make a rqportf str tler that Orr came in asd after eraniinnn
~thn ~they xmduded there was not suffietent to place b1m on
tral; but I am trying to think Commiissioner McLean was of the
sane opinion beoamaei he did not press it..Q. Are the          ers in the exerceise of 1fh01r offieial sad
judikia cwnvlditfn taking Into consideration of what the newsmpes s~a-id asiot Inspector Williams about thil place?  A.
broept as to the fect that it was tmre that he had been. there
after ite report had mmD in frora the aptan;  the papers stated
&at he was there with he captiain.
Q Were you not aware that at that time, before you dismissed
and refused to consider these charges, that the man who kept the
place, charged at a place of evil resort, was convicted in tje
police court of this city, and fined $250? A. I think that 0aptain Martens' report said he had arrested him on three different
occasons, and I guess he was convicted on them.
Q. And that In the face of the conviction by a competent court
of this man for keeping a disorderly house, you refused to entertain your brother commissioner's charges? A. That was a violation of the excise law.
Q. It was a disorderly house, If the excise law was violated?
A. It was not.
Q. You claim a house where the excise law is violated is not
a disordetrly house? A. Not in the sense you are using it; If
there be a violation of the excise law and the court has inflicted
a penalty, I rather look on a disorderly house as a house of prostitution or a garmbling place; this was an ordinary liquor saloon.
Q. What liquor saloon are you speaking about? A. The one
you are speaking about
Q. Did I mention the name? A. No; but I presume it was the
one mentioned.
Q. If you know of the liquor saloon, tell us the one you was
talking about? A. I am talking about the man that he reported
came in with Captain Martem4 and Oo     oner MLean asked
he be placed on trial.




728


Q. I will nw    uiyua-re mitaken.; 'die cenviotion Ins that
case was for adseryhuse; Billy Fowler's; do you remember
now? A.. I do not remember the name.
Q.As a disorderly house; not for the violation of the
exci-se law? A. I thik you refresh my memory to this extent;
I think It was stated by tfie proprietor of the plage -
Q. Never mind aliout those. A. That soimebo~y had been
robbed in that place of $50 or $60, and the eaptain, had made the
arrest and had also made an arrest of the proprietor of the plee
for violation, of the excise law; that was the conviction, but I
think that the report shows that the place was an ordinar.y
liquor saloon, but frequented by the lower classes - the,humbler
class ot men and women of that neighborhood.
Q. When you spoke about what the newspapers sad in regard
to that place, don't you remenmber that the newspapers reported
a captain going in and ordering the little partitions and boxe~s
where loose womien ot the town used to gq, to be pulled
down? A. I do -not remember' about those being the loose; I
rei.ollect the report shows that -that was not so.
Q. The report of the captain? A. The report of the captain
and inspector both.
Q.You have referred to what the inspector read in the newspapers, and on that reading you referred the matter to Inspeotor
Willltanss? A. It referred to the fact that he had gone with
Captain Martens to inspect It, and on the strength of that I think
f made the suggestion myself that Inspector Williams be required
(0 report back to the board the result of that investigatimn
Q. I ask you, if you did not read at that time, or it was not
read in the board, that Inspector Williams and Captain Matens
head gone there, ordering the proprietor to tear down the wooden
boxes in the place? A. Yes; and Inspector Williams ordered
them; they were about two or three feet high; you could, look
ever them.
Q.And do you remember the next day the proprietor, Und~er
the. advice of the, captain, refused to tear them downa, on the
ground that there was no violation of the law? A. I do not
recall that.
Q. In the faAe of that amid with the knowledge that the courts
had convicted the prcwpriot-~or of that place of keeping a disorderly
hose, a~ud fined bm$250, you refused to entertain your brother
cornniiors oh,'es; isn't that the fact? A. After reading
alU the eyidecioe l~ 1*z4ectio  wi-th it I exerclised mv very beat
judgment and **ted acoord~.gly.




72O


W And It is in that direction your beut judgment has gone?
A. That was my best judgnunmt; yes, e,iAtlt  all the report
Caine In I did not think It was proper.
4 Don't yeo know that four other. houses which were reported
against -a ybaft Martems at thait tiine hiad. the licenses for their
houses revoked by the excieW law? A. I don't recall that; I wish
you would refer to the records and let them speak for Ithemselve.
Q. It is a recent occurrence; there has not been a trial or a
charge agaist any offlcers since? A. Any captaim?
Q ABny captain; yes; any one; any captain; I do not mean
ranfd-snen. A., I think the last captain moi trial was Captain
O'O0omnr, of the second precinct.
Q4 It 1slxine Capttain O'oamors trial? A. No, sir; I think not,
sir; I think what you speak of was before; I think it was.
Q. Speaking of Captain O'Cononr's trial; that is the officern
whome precinct a policienan in citizen's clothes clubbed a man in
a pbMWy shop, isn't ft? A. That was the charge; yes, sir.
4 And It was sworn to before the commissioners?  A. Yefl,
4 And it was not denied that the officer was there in the
policy shop in plai"n clothes? A. There was a whole mwss of
testimony in the ase, taking up, I think, about 700 pages of close
typewritten testimony in the case, given on botfi sides; the ease
has not yet been disposed of.
4 The commisSioners have net yet disposed of the case? A.
No, Sir; the commaisioners hiave not yet disposed of the case.
4 Will you state how many captains have been convidted on
charges since the Senatoria&i comittee  has been appointed? A.
Two,: tink UM.
~ T.?wo? A. I think am
4 Will you state how many captains received convictions? A.
One received fire days, and the other 30.
4 Will you state how many captains were convicted before
the committee was appointed? A. I do no't recall it.
Q. Were there any captains convicted bef ore this committee
was appointed by the Senate? A. I am inclined to think there
was.
Q. Will you name me one? A. I would not like to attempt
that
Q. Isn't the conviction of a captain extremely rare in the
department? A. When you are trying 5,000 cases in a year
you would not have it impressed upon your min4
Q. There are only 33 captains? A. Ye,.
L.       92




(C. Is not the conviction of a captain a very rare occuwrence
in the department? A. I should say it was.
Q. Can you say -there was a conviction oif a captain since you
hkave been a conimisioner of police up to the time of the
appointment of this Senatorial committee? A. I don't recall
Tit not a fact that there is none? A. I can not state.
_Q. Oan yourecall any Instance? A&No,$ si I donot.
13y Ohairman Lexow:
Q. You don't remember any conefifon? A?. I &I not recall
any.
Selnator ara&ed4-.If there way, zou youId oertaialy
remembero 
By Mr. Ooff:
Q. Row many convictions of captahis since the appointment of
Othi committee? A. My recollection is Captain Martens and Capttbin Price, one received five days -
Q. Were not there two more; has there been four convictions
since the appointment of this committee; Haughey and Westervelt? A. Ohkyesair.
Q. That makes four since the amppcnirznent of this committee?
2W. Yea
Mr. Goff.- What was the date, Mr. ChairmanE of the appointment of this committee?
Chaman Lexrow.- Thirtieii of Januaxy.
By Mr. God:
Q. Now we have it eo far; since the 30th of January, 1894, the
date of the appointnent of thi committee there have been four
captaens eovleted of ofenes on ciwrges presented to yowr
bowmd? A. Yes, air.
Q. AMd for a period of nime years or therebtmte prior to that
you have no recollectiom of any con-viction having been had of a
captain in this city? A. I do not reacolect any; no, sin
By Chairmn n Leowi
Q Is it because the cap~tahs have been m&ii worse then, or
bebave themselves worse since the appointment of the committee
than they did before? A. I am inclined to think Mn Ghanrman




731


lhat extreme,iaa      dCTet and e  tzeme hibulgenM e in goAng into the
most tnminte fihg ha had a tetdealq to brig abut some it
tiese ohares.
By Sentor Oanfta
'Q. Vigilance on what?  On the part of the inspetors aad
the auperiniident
Q. Did that g    e bgi ater th appornnet of this committee? A. I do not think so necessarily; the ppers had been
criticfl  ng the poe for the year or two and I think that has
necessarily had a tendency to make them very carefn
Q. Was that by any arrangements among te coanissioners
themselves? A. No, sir.          s
Q. As to when; the partticlar time for vigilance commenced?!A. No, sir; no inetructions; whatever has been done was done
thie naIural way by them. 
Q. You could not fix the partirouar time wien this vigilance
oomamened except the appointment of the committee? A. No,
sir; I tink they used to rum along about 75 to 80 charges a week
againet patrolmen, and now they run 90 to 100,
SBy Chairrman Lexovwi
Q. Is it a fadt  ice the apjpointnent of hids mmittilee thei
have been a larger number of coinvictioo in every grade of the
forc than there wene before? A. Excepting I think so far as
ft the board; I do not think that the size of the penalty has been
in any way chiaged.          I
Q. There have been a greater number of convictions? A: I
think about th  ame s proportion to the entire board.
Q. Ad tht is dme to the greater vigilance on the part of the
superir officers of the force? A. I am inclined to think that
owing to fhe fact that there Ihas been more or less newspaper
critoismn that the members of the force themselves have been
extra vigilant; that the captains have been moee vigilant; and
their sergeants and their roandsamen and the inspeotoav and
they are pierhps a little bist closern
By Ohiairman Lexow:
Q. Mr. Oommisiioner, that implies a  egleet of duty of men
previous to that time, does it not? A. I would hardly think, Mr.
Lexow, that you could har,,dly p ut it in -til^: it;.  ' rO iL
to say that; there is another thing in oonnection with it; when




73LP


get a new superinitendent, he is desirous of doing the bemt
Le cain and wheu you can make any ebanges he is inclined to be
more vigilant and perhaps that Isa something  to dD with It
IBySenator O'Oonnor
j. Now, begause of the increased number of the charges made
grainst captajits  that would imrply increased vigilance on the
part of the superior officers of the captains? A. Yesa sir; now
U. the case of Captain Price, -the testimony would seem to show
&iat the house in question had virtually closed up sometime; it
MWas on Secoud avenue and PFourteenth street, and notwithatand.
Ing that fact, the snperintenident had directed some of the central
office detectives to try and sueceed in getting in there; they did
finally succeeded in getting in there in dres suits, in the basement
one nigbt; and that of Wiorse an oler -inn uniform could not very
well do
By $eenafor Bradley:'
o. You say the inspectors have not become any more vigilant
Uian before the appointment of the oomiittee? A. No, on the
sorntrary, I am inclined to think they are all doing the very best,They could to make any improvement
Q. Do you want the commnutee to understand that the patrolmen were violating the law an more than befoue? A. I would
Inot liketo say so.
Bly Mr. Ghoff:
IQ. It was not the increase of charges, but the increase of convictions? A. I do not think the convictions are any greater.
Q. You mean to say the charges have increased since the committee has beeni appointed? A. I would state to the best of my
recollection rthat the ordinary amount of charges made eaoh
week would run along about 75 or 85; that within the past year
or past two years they have seemed to gradually increase until
they run, perhaps, to 90 or to 100; a great number are for violations of the rules and for off post or something of that kind.
Q. Conduct unbecoming an officer? A. Yes; and citizens'
charges are more frequent
Q. Do you know after before 1892 there was ever a citaln
trked upon charges preferred by a superior oflfcer? A. Prior
to 1892 T.




733
Q. ~Y; was there ever a captain tried on charges preferred by
a superior officer? A. I do not recollect that, sir.
Q Do you know as a fact that there never was a captain tried
exceptupon charges preferred by citizens? A. would not like
to state that as a fact
Q. Have you any knowledge at all about this subject you have
been talking about? A. I think I have 9 fair knowledge of it
Q. You have been a commissioner nine years and your recollection fails at the very point you want it to fail? A. I do not
desire to have it fail me.
Q. During your term will you state to 1892, there was ever a
captain put on trial on charges —put on trial on charges made
by a saperior officer? A. Do you think you should ask me to
remember eight years that particular fact?
Q. I remember that particular fact; and I remember also there
are very few captains. A. I would like to state as a matter of
fact that I recollect that sufficiently; Iwould prefer that the
record should speak for itself.
Q. Do you remember when Captain Williams was tried? A. I
think he was tried twice.
Q. You presided at the trial? A. I was one of the commissioners.
Q. Who preferred the charges against him, a citizen or a
superior officer? A. In the fist case I think the change was
preferred by a party named Chapman.
Q. How many trials have you presided on wihLn Captain William  was brought before the board? A I don't think he was
tried more than twice.
Q. Don't you remember there was a trial on the complaint of
Dr. Howard Crosby? A. That was the Chapman trial.
Q. Do you remember the date of the decision of the commissioners when they voted two to two on Inspector Williams- on
Captain Williams' charges? A. No, sir; I do not recall the year.
Q. I read it to you to-day? A. Well, then it is all right.
Q. You remember that, without regard to the date? A I
remember the fact of his having been placed on tria, and the
faot of this General Porter's
Q. You remember thaut fact?  A. Yea 
Q. On the same day when two commissioners voted for his
conviction and two for acquittal was he not made an inspector
of police? A. I think not on the same day.
Q. Will you swear that it did not take place within one hour
ifter the vote was taken? A. No; I would not say that
Q. Don't you know as matter of fact that that was the day
)n which he was made inspector of police? A. I hardly think
that is so; It may be true.




734


Q. Tt may be true? A. Yes.
Q. It is true; don't you know he was made inspector of police,
at least, very shortly after? A. I should think that was true.
Q. And in the face of these charges against this offcer he was
made inspector of police, rbisng to a higher grade; is not that
a fact? A. Where they were considered as disposed of.
Q. Two commissioners did not consider it disposed of? A.
One of the commissioners wanted to fine him two days' pay.
Q. He was immediately, after his trial, made an ispeotor of
police? A. Yes, sir; that is true,
By Senator Oantors
Q. Didn't it require that majority of the board to convict?.
Yes, sir; the same parties who voted to have a penalty on the
charge of two days' pay voted for his being an inspector.
Q. He voted for conviction, didn't he? A. He assented to give
him a penalty on some technical point
Q. He voted for conviction on the penalty? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He voted with you to make him inspector of police? A.
He did vote for inspector of police.
Q. The charges against Oaptain McLaughlin, the name result
was arrived at there, wasn't it, two and two? A. Yes, sir; I
think tiha is correct, two and two.
Q. And Captain McLaughlin was made inspector immediately
after that wasn't he? A. I can not tell how soon; shortly afterwards.
Q. And he was charged by a citizen and not by a superior
ollicer  A. Yes, sir.
Q. You remember the charge against Oaptaln Carpenter of tLe
fourth precinct? A. Yes; I think that was some time after
Captain McLaughlin.
Q. He was not convicted?    A. He was not convicted; he
retired afterwards.
Q. He retired at he slake-up, didn't he? AL I don't know
what you call the shake-up.
Q. Did you ever hear the word "shake-up" used in connection
witf the police department? A. You mean the police captains;
yes; that has been done.
Q. He retired after the shake-up? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the trial of Captain Killilea? A. That
was in connection with some place in Forty-fourth street?
Q. In reference to a disonderfly house at Sixth avenue, the
Sixth Avenue Hotel; he was found guilty? A. No, sir.
Q. Charges were made and preferred against him by citizens




735


of thai district, by an association of citizens; ro you remember
that? A. Yes; Clark Bell, I think, appeared as counsel for the
property ownera
Q. And he was not convicted? A. No.
Q. Two to two again? A. I 'do not recall how the votes stood.
Q. He was not convicted, anyway? A. No; he was not convicted; that is my recollection.
Q. Now, Inspector Williams, Captain Dougherty, Captain
Haughey and Captain Schmittberger were placed on trial
together? A. I don't think Schmittberger was, was Be;
Inspector Williams and Captain Haughey and one other captain,
I don't think it was Schmittberger.
Q. Dougherty? A. Yes; that is it
Q. And those charges were preferred by ti'e superintendent of
police? A. That is right
Q. And they were not convicted? A. Some of them was; yes,
sir.
Q. Which of them? A. Captain Stephenson was also included
In that; he was convicted and transferred, and both, I think, of
the captains was, weren't they?
Q. No. A. I stand on the record, whatever it was there.
Q. I wish the Senate committee to get that fact, commissioner,
that the police department has been quickened into activity in
the way of trials and convictions since the appointment of this
committee; isn't that so? A. I made the statement that I think
that during the past year or two that there has possibly been a
greater vigilance on the part of everybody connected with the
uniformed force to perform their duty literally, speaking in every
sense of the word, and upon the most triffling offenses people have
been put on trial.
Q. RIow does that apply to the commissioners? A. We have
performed our duty, as a rule, by sustaining the complaints that
have been made.
Q. You did not change your attitude at all, you went along
and exercised your discretion, both before and after?' A. It
was our attitude there to exercise our discretion.
Q. And did the existence of the new superintendent in the
department, as you have referred it to that, increase the vigilance
of the commissioners? A. The vigilance of the commissioners?
Q. Yes  A. The commissioners went right straight along, as a
rule, in their usual way, and tried the cases and inflicted whatever penalties that they prescribed.
Q. Irrespective of the new superintendent? A. I do not think
as to the penalty- 




736


Q. I ask as to that increased vigilance; that would be the only
way of showing vigilance, and conviction. A. Convictions, and
in the punishment, and sustaining the force wherever the testimony justified it.
By Chairman Lexowt
Q. This increased vigilance, so far as the captains are concerned, seems to have added from about the 30th of January, is
it not; your convictions, as I understand the testimony in theyou have not convicted in nine years a single police captain until
after the 30th of January of this year? A. The testimony, Mr.
Lexow, seemed to be entirely inadequate.
Q. I am speaking of the fact of convictions; is that a fact? A.
That the convictions have been greater?
Q. That there have been four convictions of police captains
since the 30th of January of this year, and not a single convic.
tion of any police captain for eight years previous? A. I think
that you would have to be guided entirely by the testimony in
tbh cases in that matter.
Q. Is that the fact? A. I do not remember positively about
that; I should rather incline to think that they were.
Q IDo you remember any other captain being convicted? A.
Mr. Goff asked me that question; I do not remember.
By Senator O'Connor;
Q. I think that we have all that the commissioner knows about
it; he says he didn't know of the conviction of any captain in the
nine years previous -prior to the 30th of January last; and that
there have been four convictions since the 30th of Januray; that's
his recollection of it; I prefer to fall back on the record.
Mr. Nicoll.- The record is open for inspection; are you going to
take an adjuornm-ent now?
Mr. Goff. —I asked for it
Mr. Nicoll. —All you ask will be granted; all I have got to do
is to trail along; may I be permitted to ask how long you are
going to continue the examination of Commissioner McClave
so I can get some idea about it?
Mr. Goff.-Will you permit me to ask a question by way oi
information so as to advise the committee of a certain matter?
Q. Do you know, Mr. McClave, if any application has been made
to any magistrate or to any judge in this city or county for a
warrant against your son-in-law, Granger? A. No, sir; I have no
such knowledge.




1737


Q. Since yesterday was such a tbiag agVA ionW poeno
W& Mfr. Ni1coll spoke ibout the propr3:ek  4,it 1a~eig  ~~ 
did about it I don't know. 
Q. Do you know whether a  mnzAhas. bee oIbtained? A. I
do not know. sir.
Mr. Nicoll- Yuangtifmaonfrom me without V4
anuy farther; a warrant has been obtained; t he thing I reproaeh
Mr. Mcalave about last night' at my house was that he had not
obtained a warrant for this man who had treated him in such
a shocking fashion for so many years, and that I considered it
to be his -duty to do so ait cvaice, but as a miatter of fact I have been
su busy, an d so interezted hin the proceedings here that, I have 'not
dnew a thig. 
By Senator O    nnDor"
Q~Do you know whether this 6aiof S!te qnestkw of a wrarrant
being issued or an application made for the -warrant, has in any
way affected your son-in-law, Mft Oommisisioner? A. No, air-, I
&ave no~t -the slightest idea.
Q~ Do you not know where he is now? A. I1 have not the
shightest idea.
Q.And have not known anything about his whereaot shmoeke
left here yesterday afternoon? A. 11'o sir; I have not seen axiyMuig of him except in the chair.
Q. Drectly or indirectly? A. No, sir.
Q.Nobody has comm~unicated to you where he will bed? A. Nxo,
sir; I have not the glightest idea.; I soAMM be very glIad, indeed,
to have h im here.
Mr. Nic(AIl. — If there was any way we could produce him we
would produce him!; may I at~k the comimittee whether your ownm
o$tic-ers or sergeant-at-arms to whom you spoke this mourntng has
obtained any information about the whereabouts of thbe w~emsr
Chairman Lexow.- We have none.
Mr. Goff.- He has nort been to his place of business to-day.
Senator (Y'(o2nor.- That is all the information that we had,
that he had not been to his place of b~usiness to-day.
Mr. Nicell.- lEkt us hope h~e will be here to-morrow.
Chahirna Tjexow.- Yolu will understand, Mr. NIColl, that aiy
ftreats made Vagaint witnesses who is subpoenaed to come here
and testify $s nort indirot Itself, but Indirect contempt of theSenate; it is a fact to intimidate or brow-beating to keep the wit —
ness away; and this conmfnttee will be compelled to take suzh
steps to enforce Its orders, and the presence and aippearanee of
&e witnegs are given, to the full ex-tent of Hi~ anthority to brbng
them here and protect the witnesses here.
93~~~~~~~~




738


I 3r. Nleof-l.. know what my rights are, and know what the
committee's are; but I want to know whether or not the com-.
mittee would protect a man who they believe to 'be guailty of
foq~ery?
Mr. Goff.- How do. they believe it?
Mr Nicoll.-Wb~o they believe to be guilty of forgery. If this
man was an honest man or honest witness, he would return.
Senator O'Connor.- You can not tell whether this man tells
fie. truth. Even if he is guilty of forgery, or even of murder, he
is eptitied to protection.
Mr. Nicoll.- He is entitled to it; but I say no man who is an
honest man will hesitate to come before this committee or before
piy other judicial body and give his testimony. The fact that he
&is disappeared after his midnight association with Mr. Goff is
a stronig evidence in my mind that he is not entitled to the
belief of this committee.
Gwrian Lexow.- May he not have disappeared, Mr. Nicofl,
as the result of the suggestion thonout to him that he would
wearested on the charge of forgery?
Senator O'Oonnor.- He promised Mr. Goff to. be here.
Mr. Nicoll.- He has known all about these transactions for a
year. Mr. Mc~lave has known them. The witness has known
about them; others have 'known about them; there can be nq
serecy about them; there is some reason why this man has not
appeared this morning; you will never fInd me guilty of the mis..
tonduct of trying by any Indirect manner to intimidate a witness
who is properly subpoenaied to appear before the committee of
Oie Senate of the State of New York. That is certainly true; but
at the same time you are not to blame me if I discover that this
man commlitted 20 crimes, and that the witnesis who sits upon
that chair simply because he was his son-in-law, because he was
the father of his three grandchiidren~ because he lived in his
house and was the husband of his daughter, out of motives of
humanity hesitated to prosecute him. Now you may not blame
me fot that
Mfr. Goff-l I think there Is no. blamne to be attached to Mr.
Niqll whatever. No question has been raised here on the part
el'tbls committee, and I am certain on -the part of counsel. There
Is no question of Mr. Nicoll's duty to advise his client, Mr.
Mc(fflave, or to feel ind&ignant on his part of what he considered
an uujust act to Mr. MfeGlave. But we are here in Vie rouance, as we uanderstand ft, of a public duty, and, since t~(re has
been bribery and corruption charged against the poRiOe depart-.
mekt, we must make use of whatever weapons comes to our
h'a4, and we can only make use of these weaons) from which
brgimey and corruption ha-re generated. No. honest man, my




989
friend, Mr. Nicoil, says, no honest man would come here and go
an the stand and give evidence if he had committed forgeries
i[ght I reply to that by saying that I doubt if ay honest m
in  ew York would keep in his love under any circumstanes; a
if made to be a progenior of Ms grandchildren from year to y*
know he was begetting forgers and eorruptionists
Mr. Gof;i- Every day, in the course of demonstrations of justice, this city —well, I won't say every day, but frequently-?
Mr. XioU, himself, as a public prosecuting officer, and myselas an assistant in the same character, we have necessarily, wen
the oeoaas   makes it a neceirt to make use of all implemenit
tha ooome to oar hands, only to obMiiia  knowledge and infornnm
tiom; and the fact thia this witness came upon the stmnd hre
yesterday asd swore to cetain facts and has not been proven or
hdeirtraed as being unitle, his word is as good as Ma1
M   a 'es. Ha s man or an the stand wis just as convincing o
truah as Mr. Mc(ave's has 'been; ie stants equal with Mir
McO, because Mr. Mclave has thwn around him his shield.
ing wing for six year. Now, all I  tave to sy, if your haoirs
pleaseMr. NiodiL-If your bors please, I object to this.
Mr. Go — You opened thi easa   If your honors please, with
respect to the disappearance of this witness, I repeat again, he
told me last ntght thaA he was afraid of being arrested this morning. I told hi  fhat such an arrest would not dare be made in
this court That he was u;nder the protection of this committee;
he said.hat his faher-in-law threatened to have him arrested.
I uged 4an to come here this morning, and that this committee
woir  M ptt*ect him; he left me in that frame of mind. That is all
of our tI-i'on with the mater. We want to get his witness;
we wa* t:f see, gentlemen, after this supreme moment, when this
witness has taken the stand, why Mr. McClave should have made
these threats last night, at that particular time.
Mr. Nooll. — We want the witness and there is nothing we
would not give to have the witness
Chairman Leow.-You can not but suppose that this comnittee should be suprised that the gentleman who slept for six
yeas upon his crimial righs, if you please, and then just as
soon as &le witness appears c i the stand against the man herb
and gives testimony ag-inst thoe man, that then he should for the
first time avail himself of his rigit to arrest himn
Mr. Nieolil. —And ou have never known a fa-ier
i Oihamai  w L  -exo.- It is i:timidadt.0
Mr. NiMoL-Have yoa never known a fafhe who was eei
to suppress charges agabist his scrmiin w before? Is  is y
first exprie    of ths kind?




t6nan Gewtxodwv.- I have certainly heard of it. 
Mr. Nicoll.-We know thiis witness is protected by this Oommittee in coming before this committee and in going from this
committee room, in appeaaing at the sessions of this oomnuttee;
he is protected while giving his testimony; but after he has gothrough he is entitled to no other prteetion than amy otrer
man in the State of New York, than any other criminal, and this
fs fle only protection you ca give, exicept in one case where tMe
witness testifies to the giving of a bribe, he is protected by
statute, and every other citizen, although he is protected in
attendance on the sessions of tie eomimttree, as soon as he leaves
he attendance, the criminal law falls upon him as it falls upon
everybody else.
Chairman Lexow.- he cotmmittee is surprised that the represenitaive of the police depatmnent should, hbimelf, suggest the
method of intimidating thie witness, becarse tiha is the resnut of
ft; Mr. Nicoll must klnow as well a anybody else that the suggestion of arrest against this witness will naturally intimidate a
*'itess. Mr. Nicoll knows we are bound to protect oar wtnesses so far a:s we can, and it is unfair to this committee tio
throw a staw in the wtay of obbaining the truth in this case
What is not only throwing a stioae but puttag up a big obstacle
Mr. Bradley.-I ask Mr. Nicoll Why he was so emphatic in
miaking the asertiotn this morning that we would never see this
Witness again.
Mr. Nicoll. —I will tMe yom, sir. For the first time in my life, a*
my house, Mr. Mcdlave dbldosed fte fat that this yrong man
had been committing forgeries for a period of seven years, and
that Postmaster Van Cott had disdarged him from the postoffice for opening registered lettes and taling moey tihereftmn,
and I said that a man of that srt to have the andacity to come
down before the hanorble comhanittee of the Senate of the State
of New Yok and paim himself off as an honest witness, I venture
to say he will never appear before them again.
Senator O'0onnr. —I do not think you intended to keep this
witeess away, but you said that which was likely to keep the
witb.ess away. You did a very unwise thing.
Mr. Goff.- I ask the committee if they will direct  e aommisioner of police of this city on the stand, if he will bring to bear
the tremenadio  resoure s of the police department of this city
to prodnce this man?
Senator Braidley.- He can do that ii 24 hou.s.
Mr. Meaave —  I want to say, Mr. Goff, that I shall be pleased
better than anybody else if Mr. Granger will come to this court
rmm and sit in tths chair again. I will say now that I will
tAtruot my messenger to go to Suipeibendent Byrnes at once




!141
d to Iiirut hfta to put erwy posible an i tiat he can on, to
find that man apd (it him in tbis oourt to-nmiaww morning.
r. Goff. —Suppose you go to the Superiiuendde t Byrnes
y,w s!? 
Mr. M   ave — If I can atch him I will do that myself.
Mr. NiolIL- With thi proviso that you permit me to shraw
when this    is on the tad, what kind of aman he ia
Mr. Goff.- There is no proviso.
Se&ator B4adley.- That is a privilege
Oairmain   Lexow. — We-want to lniow thi.
Mr. Gof.- We are saitisfied
Mr. Nicol- If I can show you what I kowo armt hfn itaf Is
all I wan
C   rtit i   Lexow.- We told you Mr. Niooll, that you would
have the bradest latitude of examiiiation.
Mr. MeOlave.- Mr. Goff, do you think I hab better go up persoally.
Mr. Goff.- I would suggest it  The fbx is always his own best
mesenger. Your honor, will we adjour  now mrffl to-morrow
mnoring?
Chbirman Lexow.- UIntfl half-past 10 ocdodk to-morrow morn
ing. We stand adjourned until then.
Mr. Goff.- Mr. McClave, will you please have ywar bank-.books
he?, your privateas wel as your ofSiiM
Mr. Molav.- Yeas
Proceedings of the ffftenth meeting of the oiiimiee, We'ii
day, May 23, 1894, at if30 a m.
Present. — Senators Clarence Lexow, Edmund O'Connor, Ja ob
A. Oantor, Charles T. Saxton, Daniel Bradley, O(thbert W. Pound
and George W. Robertson, of the committee; John W. Goff, W.
Tavemr Jerome and Freanf Moo a comnsel for the committet;
r. Delancey Nicoll, for the police board.
COhrman   exow.- Before'apening the proceedings to-day, the
committee desires to state through me that upon a repetition of
what occurred yesterday in the foea of applause or hissing -
upon the repetition of that today this room will be cleared of all
these not immediately connected with these proceedings.
John MeOlave resumes the stand.
Diret examination continued by Mr. Golf
Q. Have you heard anything about Mr. Granger, Mr. McClave?
A. No, sir; I have not.
Q. Did you see the superintendent of police, as promised? A.
Yes, sir; I did.




Q. Was there anyone present when you saw Vie superind
tendent? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the superintendent ask you if there was a warrant out
far this man? A. I think he did; yes, sir.
Q. Did he ask you what crime he was charged with? A. I
think he did, sir.
Q. What did you answer? A. I told him that I had no knowledge of the fact that any warrant was out for him at all.
Q. I ask you if the superintendent asked you what crime he
was charged with, and what you replied? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you say? A. What did I say in reference to. that
question?
Q. Yes. A. The superintendent asked me the question in the
p~renoe of Mr. Latchaw, of the World, as to whether or not
there were any warrants out f6r him; I told him that I had no
knaowledge of that fact at all; then he asked me upon what
&rounds he could be interrupted in case he should find him; i
tild him I thought he would be perfectly justified, in case he did
find him at all, to hang on to him in some way or other, and bring
him here; he then promised me he would do everything that lay
in his power; he called in two detectives, and he gave one of
them to Mr. Latchaw, of the World, and they went out; and he
sent for another one, and sent him with Mr. Barnes; and called
in Inspector McLaughlin, and told him to tell his men to look out
for him.
Q. I ask you again, for the third time, if the superintendent
asked you what crime he was charged with; will you please
aaswen that question? A. No, sir; he asked me if there was a
warran.t
Q. Wi! you please answer my question; did the superintendent
ask you what crime he was charged with? A. No, sir; I think
not.
Q. Will you swear he did not? A. I may be a little mistaken
atlouf it; I am inclined to tell you the best of my recollection
about it; I would not like to swear; he may have asked me that
question.
Q. Was anything said about forgeries having been committed?
A. I while we were thereQ. Was anything said about forgery while you were there?
Mr. Nicoll.- Let him answer; he is trying to do his best.
Mr. 0off.- The difficulty is, his speeches are taking up considerable time.
The Witness. — I think possbly there was something said about
that.
Q. Who said that? A. I think likely I did myself.




Uq3
Q. nd the superintemdent asked you when these forgeries had
been conmmitted, didn't he?  A,. I don't think he did.
Q.Are yOm as uncerk"l abou-t -that as other tigs in coilneetton with   o~~sonversatkft1? A. I do not desire to be uncertain;
I want to teil you the faicts; I mayI don't think he did; I stand by
that.
QIDo you myhe did not?    A. IsaylIdo-not think that he
did; I would be w~iln to admit it, if he did say that.
Q. I do not ask you that; when the superintendent asked you
if there was a warrant out, did he not ask you, if you ha-d made
Information against Granger? A. Made "information?"
Q. Yes; you. know what an "information" is? A. No, not
particularly; I do not know in what sense you took it.
Q.I am putting- It In the sense the police put it, the proper
sense? A. I never heard the word in the police department
in connection with criminality at all.
Q. You -never heard the word "1information"1 used in the police
department in connection with criminality? A. No, sir.
Q. During your nine years experience? A. No, sir.'
Q. You never heard the complaint fied before a police magis.
trate or made before a police magistrate, was called an Information? A. tDo you mean on information and belief?
Q. No; did you ever hear that paper called an information? A.
NO.
Q. This is the first time you ever heard that word used? A.
Yesir.
Q.Did the superintendent ask yon if any complaint had, been
made before any police magistrate? A. No, sir; he did not ask
me that question at all.I
Q. Didn't yoi say to the superintendent that there had been
warrants issued against Granger? A. No, sir; I did not.
Q.You swear to that positively? A. Yes, he asked me the
questiefl.
Q. Wait a while; did you say, "I understaind there were war.
rants out for him last night:" did you utter those words? A..No, si r.
(~. Do you iswear positively? A. I swear po~sitively that I made
no suchb statement as that at all.
Q. In w~ordis or substance? A. Oh, nothing - warrants out last
night; that is in reference, to night before last?
Q. I ask you for words, not for occasion? A. I told you the
superintendent asked me if there were any warrants out for his
arrest, and I told him I had not knowledge to that fact, and he
wanted to know what ground he cold hold him on.
Q. You bhare sworn you did not utter those wode; that is aJI
I want? A. Yes,




74:4
Q. AAn you stand by that?   ~. Yes;      Latliaw, of th
World, is present.; I am willing to let him go on the rtawnd in
reference to that matter; Mr. Latchaw, of thp World, asked that
I would give him a detective and thought he co'uld tind bun,
sir; he was present at the time of the interview with the superintendent.
Q. Will you stand with what Mr. L2atchaw says? A. I think
Mr. Latehaw is an honorable gentleman; I have every reason to
believe so.
Q. Have you talked with other persons besides the Supexintendent, about Granger's estixmony against you, the other day?
A. Other persons?
Q. Yes.
Chairman Lexxww- WhatWt is the objectf of tbis kind of exa~mina.
tion, Grf. Gff.
Mfr. off.-, We want to see if we cannot trace some knowledge
of this witness, Granger.
The wituoes&- If you will permit me to answer that absolutely
and directly, I will be pleased to answer it as p~ositively as it is
possible for any human being to answer it, just as clearly as it is
po sible for any hrumain being td answer' it. I slay to you absolut-ely and pciftively that I am not a party to keeping him away
from here. Thaere is nothing in the world that I so much want
at this particular time, as to have that man in this witness chair
agaJ0Iin.
CWT-irnnan Lexow..- Tbhi loses this episde. It seems to, me
we can get at those facts in a more direct way, if you need them
Mr. Gxoff.- All right, Mr. Chairman.
Q. Have you birught your bank-books, Mr. McClavet  A. Yes
(Producing three bankb-ocks.)
Q. The year before you were appiointed police commisioner in
1883, did you represent yourself to any of the conmunrcial agendels, as to youir worth in brusiiem? A. I have no recollection of
it, sir.
~. Did you ever, make any representations to the mercantile
agencies of y0Irv worth in business?  A. I do not recall any; they
may have come in from time to, time, thi>se certain years, and
made some general inquiries.
Q. Don't yOu remember in that year that you ever mu-de a
representation of whaft you were worth? A. I don'trecall, sir.
Q Does your memory fail you on that' point, again? A I can
not recollect having  made any statements to any mercantile
ageneles for a gewat many ylears.
Q. Verbaly, or written, I did you ever make a statement to a
mercantile agency of what you were worth?   A. There have




745
bieen Oftfemenfs during mY bJuiness career, just when, I do not
remem ber.
Q. Do you recall any plwtroular statement you ever made as to
your worth in business? A. N% sir; I do not recall of any at
the presentL
Q. Do you know IpsItily you ever  made a wtgtement?. I
would not care to state wherter I did or not; Y. could not- tell you
po~si~.tielj.
Q. You, as a business man, doing a business of $500,000 a
year, you were not rated in the mercantile agencies? A. The
mercantile agencies have rated me for a great many years, I
think, for three to five hundred thousaA1Aol1akrs, with the highest
credit..
Q. For what year? A. For a numIber of years back.
Q. What agency has done that? A. D'unn, Barlow & Corn
Q. And any other agency? A. I do not know, sir; I never
looked them over.
Q. Are you a subscriber to Dumna  Baeiow & Companay? A.. I
have their book in my office.
Q. And have had their book in yw otffice for a gxeat nunmher,
of years? A. Yes, sir.
M1r. Nicoll.- It is R G. Dunn & Company you mean, isn't it?'
The witnes.- Yes; R (. Dunn, & Company.
'V i~o isn't it a fact that you were never rated at B. G-.
Dunn & Cpanyp'aIys before the year 1894, as being worth -from
three to five hundred thousand doll-am? A. No, sir; I think not.
Q. What? A. I think not, sir; I think I have been rated in
Dunn & Company's agency, for eight or ten years, that is my
recollet6ion of it, at $500,000.
Q. Don't you know, in 1884, you were rated at $200,009 dollars
In the book of IR G.Dunn u&  Company?  A. No,sir; I do not.
Q. Wlyou state th-at is the fact?  A. I don't thinkthat isgso,
srir
Q. Do you, know amything about it? A No; I don't remnember;
I do't recollect making any statemaent in 1884 at $200,000.
Q. I ask you the statement R. G. Dun & Coumpany, made, to
which (oncern you are a subscriber? A. No-w, you are asking
we if 1 made a statement of $200,000, is that the idea, in 1884?
Q. Mr. McClave, I ask you if R. G. Dunn & Company, to, which
yo.j were a subscriber, did not rate you in 1884 at $200,000? A.
I do not know; I can not remember; I can not recollect ten
years ago.
Q. Don't you know that Bradstreets rated you in 1883, on your
own eIftm, at $146,000 to $228,000, on your own claim? A. I
don't know, sir; that is in 1883, you say?
t  I   94




748
(Q. In 188. X. I don't know.
Q. Will you say that is not so, or was not so?. Will I say
I made a statement to them in 1883 of $143,000?
Q. Yes. A. No.
Q. When a business man is asked for a statement for a meroantile agency, he generally makes what he believes to be a truthful
statement, don't he? A. I think the Bradstreet agency has
quoted me from $150,000 to $200,000; some years ago they asked
me for a statement; I think I did make some sort of statement to
them at that time, and they did not correct their report; they
then asked me again fqoanother statement, and I wrote them a
letter and I told themAtat until I had an assurance that they
wourd quote me correctly, I would not make any report, and j
have never heard from them since.
Q. Did you ever make any outside the one you have mentoned; did you ever make a claim except the one you have mentioned; did you ever make a claim for a rating excepting the one
you have stated? A. No; I think not.
Q. That is what you claim? A. That is my recollection of it
Mr. Goff. —Mr. Chairman, on this point of inquiry it may be
of interest to the committee, and as Bradstreets agency have
kindly sent their books down here, under charge of their counsel,
who is willing to go on the stand and produce them, I will ask
you to allow me for a few moments to put him on the stand.
Oahirman Lexowe- Step aside, for a few moments, Mr. McClave.
Johp HL Bird, called as a witness on behalf of the State being
duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Goffi
Q. What is your profession, Mr. Brl t W.. m I obliged to
criminate myself?
Q. Not unless you wish to make a voluntary statement A.
Well, I am a lawyer.
Q. Then you make that of your own free will, that admission?
A. Voluntarily, or involuntarily.
Q. How long have you been in that character? A. I have
played that character for about 35 years.
Q. And successfully? A. I think so.
Q. Are you counsel for the Bradstreet Mercantile Agency? K
I am, sir; and have been for a quarter of a century.
Q. Have you in your possession records of that agency in relation to the rating of Mr. McClave-Mfr. John McClave? A. I
hlave, sir.               -




?47


Q. WT  yon kindly fell us what tiat sntaementis, in the year
1893?
Mr. Nicol.- Is this a letter from Mr. McClave? One moment;
what are t~ose papers? Permit me to cross-examine on the
question.
The Witness.- They are the record of the Bradstreet Company,
with respect to the commercial standing of Mr. Jobn sCcilave
By Mr. Nicoll,
Q. Who made tiem up? A Made up by:ie dcerks in the office
from statements made by Mr. McClave to them.
Q. Did you make them up? A. I did not
Q. Did you collect the mifonnation ftom which they were made
up? A. Personally, Mr. Niooll, I know notfing about them,
except as counsel for the compamy; being subpoenaed by tiis
committee I brought the record here.
Q. It is not a part as I undersltad, of the business of te
counsel for te company to go oub and interrogate mereamits
about their standing; is it?  A. Certainly not.
Q That is not a part of your professiomal employment? A. I
have ner eer ex.serd it.
Q. You have never done that business? A. Certainly, not, sir.
Q. Thai beig so, you know nothing personaly aiot mSh  se
records? A. Personally; no, sir.
4. Who are the clerks in the fim of Bradstreet & Oompany
who have collected that information recorded on those certificates?
Mr. Goff,-,I objet.
Ghaiarmma Lexow.- I   ink counsel has a legal right to put
that question, but I do not see why Mr. Nicoll loses his time in
making an objetion.
Mr. Nicoll.- Perhaps I am wasting time. I am going to object
to it on the ground that is is not legal evidence.
Cha'an Lexow.-I understand that     Why not let it go in
for what it is worth?
Mr. Nicoll.- I object to it on te gro   that it is not legal
evidence, and should not be received by a judical tribunal, and
try as hard as it will, the committee cami never divest itself of its
judicial functions, and the committee should not receive evidence
of this sort. I should consider myself derelict in the rwrformanoe of my duty, if I did not object, that they ought not to
receive anything but legal evidence.
Chairman Lexorw.-I understand the objection you make that
they should produce proof of original sources of information.
Mr. Nicoll.-They shoid  bring the clerk who had the in'cr



a 748
view with Mr. Mcave, ad get the hifornia#in from him as to
wvhat he was wOrth. in 1880.
The Witness.- I hawe here the detailed statement made by.Mr. Mie-lave to the company.
Q. In his ocriginal hanAvwritfiug?  A. It is not in his own
hanudwrirltmg.
Mr. Nicoll.- If you can produce Mr. Mc9lave's hiandwriting I
shall make no objectifn.
The Wituess.- If he will look t-hem over, he will probably
recvgnize the statement made by him.
Mr. Goff.- What is the use of wasting time on it?
Chairman ILexow. —  I think if this witnes will testify that is
a correct copy of the records of the office, we will not call for the
original dorcment  Unless you desire the originals to be produced, we will alolw this testimony to go in.
Mr. Nicoll.-I do desire the origfnias.
Chairman, Lxorw.- We will allow the testimony to go in on
the statement that this is an original copy.
Mr. Nicoll.- I understood you to say that if I required the
originals, these would notbe allowed in evidence.
(hnairman 1Lexow. —  Waimt I said is this: You will have the
right to have the origin-als produced, If you desire it; bot if the
witness here testifies this is an exa*b o1py- of the oidgnals, we
will take this for evidence.
Mr. Goff.- Go on, Mr. Bird.
The Witnes.- What year was yu aeking,?
Senator Caator. —  We understiA  *e orig ia s are to be
produced?
Chairman LexvO..- Ceretaly
By Mr. G-offt
Q. In the year 1883? A. In that year he made returns ad
$146,228.50; that is for 1883.
Q. What is the statement there, if any? A. The statement in
detail I have before me; I have the detailed statement
Q. That is his claim for that year? A. Yes.
Q. What did Bradstreet rate him at in that year? A. Tn 1889;
I haven't the record for that; I have for 1884.
Q. Give us 1884? A. The rating of Bradstreet's do you mean,
for 1884?
Ohairman Lexow.-How is that material, Mr. 'aff? This wit.
ness, Mr. McClave, may be worth a moiallion,  and Bradstreets, for
some reason of their own, may rate him at $1. How Is that mateAnlt, unless it is made on the statemzent of the defendant?




7499
V~h e Wit n es-s.- I hi a'v-e tliait record here so tar as his cliam Is
eoti'cerned. As the chairman says, we are very conservative, aud
Bradstreets may underrate; we generaJly d'o I have not the
claim for 1884 in detail.
Q. Have you i t in substance? A. I have our rating for that
year.
Q. On his claim? A.. Yes, sir; it is as follows: "1He regards
himself worth close to $15O,OOO, and there seems nm dou~bt on
nominal value that is correct, though on a cash basis, it is believed he could not raise more than $tOOOOQ, which is the estimate given; he has not yet lived down -;  wifth the permission
of the committee, I will not read some ~'vt    atr.Q. Is it in relation to the busiiues?  No.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What is the date of this oue? K. November 24, 188, Mr.
N'icoll.
Q. HFave you compared the paper that you are now reading
from, from what you say is the original in the office? A.. This
is the original in the office; this does not purporrt to be a copy
of the detailed statement made by the co~mmissioner.
Q. What is it then? A.. It is the conclusion reached by the
office, after going over his statements, and weighing his authority.
Mr. Xicoll.- I object to that as the merest~basy
'Chairman Lexow,.-. Objectizm sustained.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. You have got his. claims in your office, the*orIgial ckaiii?
A. I do understand.
Q. You have -not got his original c~mns thhmei' Wu. Bird? A.
I have -not, sir; not for that year.
Q.For any year? A. Yes, siir; I bhave 1889, in speciftc &et~a~l
Q. Give us 1889? A. On May 25, 1889, Mr. M~eC~ave pre
isented thie following detailed stautements -
Mr. Nicoil.-May- I ask, tha I nwa~y not imute*mapt The- pro
oeedfngs any miore tbh~mn posseible, whedther or not all ot these
you spealt o~f axte ocppwis of! staitements masde by Mr. Ro~lwve,
which. have been verified by yourself?
The Witness-KNdt by, mysef, sOr.
Mr. Nicoll.- Gentdieien~ can you receiv  ONi evidenee.
~harnau  Tax~w. Te ruling h~as been that, iniless thke
original is produced, if you call f or it, th-is in strlcken- oo, dtL
Mr. Nicoll.-Why shomdn'dt t~hey produce it?
3hiairnian L-exow.-B]eeiaus it takes tooi much( time.
Mr. Nicollt- It does nomt take so much time to send to Mhe




750


9'wiai Iahifhng,:whtki:s not five oinitWes' walk from  'hfis
*kadrman Lexow. —Wlfe it beaas all the evidemee of authenfi~ty, it seems the originai orght to be pased, Mr. Goff.
MB. Goff.-WeHl, if you rule tlat way, Mr. Chamana.
Senafor (Oonnr.-Why not lmae tee witness go to tihe
cde and get the odgiMl               ad m  we w    ft have any
Ee Witnes. —  We will agree to t    e ths shown to your
dit., amd see iff e recognize  it. I do not care to e bofhered
eaning ihere again,  fie recogizes it.
Mr. MoH.-Plese go amd get the onrig       ai tamea; you
bihe wealthy Moeiv.
Bie Wte.-Yes; I knoI        I am uBder play:
f. NcotB.- Go ritgt and get ihtem
sI he W'itne.-Ta — ha   you; I have not becn dismissed by fhe
ben~itttwe, yet
Ct~eaaa~n Lexow. —Mr. Goff, do you think it better to ka.ve
Mi. Bird go and get them?
kr. Gof. —Yes, ir.
r. Bhrd lemves the stMd.)
&bhn W. MCaTee, reesm  s ire stani
Direct eamination otmued     y Mr,. Goff
DMd yo    make a statemet In 189? A. Eighteen hundred
anuid nU ety-tyhree shr?
Q Did you make a statement In 1891?    AL W writtcn stateQ     am asing you if you made a statemen in 1898, that yon
wet oonpelledl to fail in 1,87, with liablities of $198,000? A.
-ir p; I never made any suid statenent.
Q Do you know if anryoe oosneted with yo in business with
3rr knowledge made sum     a statement? A. No, sir; they would
gmt make sudh a st-tememt, because it was not true.
Q. Never mentioned the cause? A. No; I do not know.
' -. ID    you, on December 13, 1888, or abbut that date, make a
seatenent to the representative of R G. Drnm & Compamy, commiercll ageno, to wiichi you mabsiebed, tat yoor position as
polide ooma si  er, had, to a consideable extent, aided in your
sooeess in lbitnea? A. No, sir; I never made any such statemen      I
Q Do ym swear ya did not make swhi a stCtement? AL Yes,
Str; pfe  ely.
l I read fi      a tatemet fushed to me by. GL Dunn &


\;




T51
Cotmpany, in whidi It states under the date Iaag meiudonedI)ecemnber 13, 1888 —"His position as police commissioner, ha
to a conidemrble etent, aided in his success? A. That is not
my statement 
Mr. Nicoll. —  I that put down there as a statement of Mr MeClave, or as a commesit of tihe isteviewer? 
ChMinaair   Lexorw,-I understand oounsel has simply aoled
whether on that date or at that time he made a statement of ihat
kind to R. G. Dunn & Oom(pany. That is perfectly proper?
A. No, sir; I did not make such a statement.
Q Is that the dte? A. No; it is not true, si.
Q. Is it a fact that your police comnsioaerai has aided yo
in your business? A. It is an absolute fat, sir; that it has not
aided me one solitary bit i that respect; my bisines stands by
itself
Q. I read from a statement made on December 1, 1888, to RI G.
Dunn & Company, " rom hiso political interest as police conmissioner, he is brought in contact with quite a large demand for
lumber, which has increased his otherwise good business;" did
yo,  make that statement, or anyfhing like that in substmae?
A. No, sir; I did not make that statement
0. On October 14th, to the same Mercantile Agenay, did you
make this statemet: "Wttoat giving his figue, he says he
has done a swei buime, and added to his means; thisls
conceded by those in a posaton to know, and tee amaunt of Ids
business has no doubt been icreased somewhat by the imfluent
of his position as police Commissiomae, " dMi yo make that staie
ment, or anything in sistance? A. No; that b not my staement
Q. Did you make thia  te. No
Q. Or anything in lsaie that? A No; I did not w
that
(Mr. Moeave again leaves the srtad, and Mr. Bid reaumes
the stan)
John H. Bimrd, rmes   the stna:
Direct examnination eame   by Mr. Goff
Mr. NioB — One muanet     Where i thiis ge   m 
occupied that hiair a moment ago, while I was oc ed
with Mr. Bird?'
Mr. Goff. —He is at your elbow.
Senatr Bradley. —I hrnp you did not think te t oh nttee
spirited him away, did you?




752
Mr.   eoll. —I: t & f ste hbw they eould, Tilness tiey were
iairvoyaut.
Q. Now, Mr. Bird, what papers do you, hold in your hand?
X I hod in my Iand a paper, which purports on ts face, to
tW a stement made by Jn Ml     Olave, on the 25lh of 3aY,
$189, tb the IfaXtreet Gomnpay, of tihe standing of h uis lee.
Ghairman lexorw.-You mew    his buinmess?
A. His business a    hiohue; te faa a standing.
By Mr. Goff
Q Peteae read it? A I do   t k  wno   wh&   hb hs s
Q. Ner mind read:i
By Chairman ILexowt. Is ft Mr. McClave's wt~Lng? M, I dont lnaow; e owies
~Is Woodwad Mo3sve your son, Mr. McOave?
*r y      Mcdia -^   Wowd U a    vI-see  he is RiJ c, i
1    y Mr.
I. AMid in buuinemes Yit o yot
aIS  M-eCave.-Yes, Sir.
Mr Bird. —I have atso a letter of Deeemnaer 12th, I0,
a mirming th, staitemetr, direte  to the Bmareteet Gpay,
d sged by John MoOlave; I don't know whether t is his
e:  tri zor not.
elOrma       w eow. —Ih onrder tbo am *t tW hi, wonm you
amd tthat to Mr. dC~ a_  n ask him if that is b:i sigat?
By Mr. ONO,
Q Is tJhai your.Me?             MehI  paper t. agOlav.
fr. B. rdS-And it:s alsob, r. Goff
By Chairmain Lexoaw:
Q. Are those Mr. MNOatve s ~na-rg
MC. M    vCtem.-Y-es, sr.
hrman eLexorw. —Let us eontinue t*hi examiamNon, Mr. off,
art wil take all dLy, O  a a matter  t is nt e....  i
By Mr. GoffI   w
I that your son s sgnature, Mr. Melave?
Mr. McOlave.-Yes, sir.




Q M1o Mr. Blrd,) I would suggest &hat the witness read the
sgubjects, without reading the amnounits; it is not neca wto
spread them on the records, and then giin  the total.
Chairman Lexow.- Just read the subjects, Mr. Witness, and,
'then the to-tal amount.
The Wftness.- Nos. 145 and 147 Eleventh avenue, New York
city~; No. 149 Eleventh avenue, New York city; 151 and 153
Eleventh avenue, New York city; 155 and 157 Eleventh avenue,
New York city; 60&2, 604 and 606 West Twenty-second street, 156
West Seventy-s-econd street, house and furniture; 68 Sherman
avenue, Newark, N. J.; seven lots, Newark, N. J.; machinery, etc.,
New York; stables, etc., New York; lumber sheds and fence,
New York; merchandise, etc, New York; mortgage receivable,
bills receivable in, cash, Greenwood lots, o~ffice, f-arnitare, excludiug liabilities of all kinds the sum of the several amounts of
value is $31-9,000.
Q. What date is that? A.. That is for May 25, 1889.
Q. That is signed by whom? A. It is signed John Melaye.,
per S. Wood MeClave.
Q. Now, there is a letter here from Mr. Mc~lave indorsing that'?
A.Am I to read it?
Q. Just state the amount; there is no use in reading th-e whole
letter; Mr. MeClave inereases his estimate by that letter.,
By Chairman Lexow:
QWhat defthe state to be thetotal In the letterT A. Tam
not familiar with the letter; I will have to read it;-, it makes,,
C. Myf. pr-e-sent worth $3632,500); 'this does not include paid-tip life
iinsuarance ]policies, and some other personal matters, whilch in
ca-se of death would amount to about $40,000."
Q. That i's signed by John MtclA-e? A. It purports to be,
signed; I do not know.
Mr. Mc~lave.- That is my signmature.
'Mr. Nicoll.- I aRk- to have those put in evidence - marked tneovidence, so when I come to examine Mr. M C~lave, I can use them.
C1hairman Lexow.- If Mr. Groff wants them offered in evidence
he will have them marked.
Mr. G-off..-We will mark them for identfficatiom.
_1Papers marked Plaintff's Exb~iblts I and 2 for ldend<mgw




T54F-u 
Plltft's "]~hlblf No.1" 9 for Tdentiflcatioi,
Office of John Me~lave, wholesale and retail lumber meramat
Twenty-second street and FE~eventh avenas, Niew'Y&dL
Received, December 15, 18-90, New York.
New York, December 12, 1890
The Biradstreet Oormpanyt
Geuts.-In amawer to the Inclosed blank, I beg leave to refer
p9u to my statement made in communication sent you Ma-y 2Z,
1889, which is substantially correct except I find that house and
frire156 West Seventy-seeond street met me more than
V100,000 instead of $85,00;o machinery, etc., should be $45,000
Instead of $35,000; lumber sheds should be $4,000 instead
of $2,000;- merchandise, etc., should be $45,000 -instead of $40,00(>;
bills, receivable, cash and certificates on hand, all good, $55,000
instead of #0,000; Greenwood lots (three) should be $5,000
Instead of $3,000; and my liabilities are about the same now as
they were In May, 1889, viz., $8,000; by adding the above differences amounting to $43,000 to my then total worth of $319,000,
kt would make my present worth at $362,500. This does not
behude paid-up life insurance policies and some other personed
patters wbith, in case of death, would amount to about $4,0%.
9eeis no mortgages on anjy of my real.estb~e or personal prop.
a1y.                              Besj~ecttily yours,
JOHNq hkCOL&AWVi
Plentnf4aEwxhI1t No. I ' for Identilleatoion
New York, Ma~y 25th, lif
Sfa-fement and financial standing of John McClave:
Nos. 145 and UNT Eleventh avenue, New York city.$25$
'No. 149 Eleventh &v'enue, New York city..     ~     )
No& 15.1 and 153 Eleventh avenue, New York city...0
No&s 155 and I57 Fleventh avenue, New York city.....
No&s 602, 604 and 606 West Twenty-second street.1,6
Na~ 156 West Seventy-second street, house and furnitrwe. *....85,000
No. 68 SheMaw aveame, Newrk, N. J..........             12,000
SevenloWs, ewsailkW. J.                                84500
Adhilnery, etc., New York....                             0
Stable, eke., New York.~...                              44
1*be  heds and fence, New York.........             2,500
Xe'd~mwinise, etc..........40,000
'fi IaWreceivable, bills receivable in cash..     4A5,00




Of  'o~e  1  lo      t 1~.~__.^  ~..~..............,000
27,000
Bftb]iNfe ofL d nlir  i w   -  - *O** r- '-s-  - vi- *  ~-f *Oo  w  * * -   8-000
~toa    a worth.........  -............  81900
(Bigned)     gJOHN McCLAVE,
Per S Wood Mahae
John MClave, resrmnes the standi
Direct examination resumed by Mft. Geff:
Q. In drawing cheks —  I did not want to "tiyfe'r  y
Tne Witness —(fter reading lette.)   This is in answer to
inqiy you maeto me yete          y, in  eferenl e  t a man
fia  s dead. If you wild Me to have ir  I wi  gve it to
yom.  b comes from a tae       s booeeper, and is hn regwd
to a nmaiz namd         a mian w     died and you wanted tt
know   iae fate, and ha  is in rekle  to tat iamne; thIti is
a           Osa t  of bto temass boikkeepe in re er nce to the
matte.
Q Hmre yo any obeoion tro my    eep    this noe? A. No,
si; you are welomie to it
Q. In drawing chec s upon your different acaconts in the
Bowery ba      was there any inethod of ~iereee observed by
yiA as to signatre? A. No, sir — o, yes; tiy nre wawP
Q. W     was the method? A. an fie book whl" was ca.led
tfte persinal aoo    whemneYer I  tent a cheek on that, I drew
tb tire pers  l ao    t, and naed It perso'na   ateouint in
~p.aen-&besj*j i~ e ofife~ aoo   -Sw e o bMness aomut, the ehecks
were ggned by                aoy  m  as atornmey; he was there
af t e tin f; 'be!y wae siged JAmn Meave.
Vq &N is tais bto, fie persomial aoxnt, tAis bajk-book
~maaed p   onat; does ift repesen your dtposits in tie Bowery
bai* from -te i:me you opened this personal account, this one
bI  -?. A. The woiv e amoumt tiepe?
Q. 1R eomne  es oan J   ary 2, 1889; had you yoar persotal
aeotunt in the Bowe   bank before that date? A. That reMesents, subsatantiay, MI. Goff, the airegate results of the depoits in the p       UerIa U aaManit for the entire period that I hiave
been in the poiee department, for about 10 years.
Q. How ffe       y did you draw your saary? A. Ever
monmth,




756


Q. And that Is at wbimt rate per m~ont~h? 'IC. P'ow 1hua&dr
and sixteen dollars and sixty-six cents per month.
Q. But you have stated that this personal account of yours
touattaned hbuit the deposits rep esernting your monthly salIWY?
A. I have stated, also, Mr. Goff, if you remember, th-at It somethmes happens in nmiy business office, my son would say to me
that he was a little short after a dy. or two, and MI such oase
as tba~t I would give him my peisonWi dhieck wih~ih he would
diipos%4 lIa the r~eguIlar bushnfis account,  tlien he would
gifve me a memorandum ehec Wklxe for ft, -au-d as soon axithe
acoou~nt got in posittion I wo'uld deposit ft beek agai.n in' lke
per~somb axccoimt; tbhe aggregate annoont of the parties lbi VWa
prrsnal account, re~presenrtlng 10 years, is abomit $64,000 owrv
=An a~bove the aomota of nxoney' th-at was reoemved for the
sale of tile house, 156 West Sevmty-seoomr-d street, wArd for the
$21.,0,000 mortgage placed on 124.
Q. Well, outsie of the ekmcuznMices or the aocurrenees.,Wht
you ha-ve mentionted, those deposits included all -that yuu made tn
the Bowery bink? A. 'Yes, sir.
Q. To your personal account? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I call your attention to an item of May 17, 1890, $416.66;
does that represent your monthly salary.? A.. It must be; that
io the amount of 'it.
Q. I call your attention to, the next item, June 12th, the same
year, $3,00G; what does thaut represent? A. That i - I have
drawn the cheek for the business account $3,000; and that is
where it 'Was put back there and depo'4ted there.
Q. I call yOir attention to the entry of June 28th of $1,000; de
you remneinber wbat that is for, 'deposited in, your personal
account? A. ItWoRid be impossible for me toa   enbr in detal
each one of those particular items; I think that I have exonilnw,(i
as nearly an I cm~
Mr. vitol.- may the examintion be taken in a tone sufficient to reach the reprewantaitives, of the press that sit at thi'
table, as well as myself, as well,i the ecrn-~eA fkor tbe e ite
I do not hear a word. Mr. Goff gets up in the presmen of Mr.
MveClalve, and I don't hear a wood that is going on.
Q. I call your attenfion - the solicitude off Mr. Nicoil for'
everyone's interest, but his orwn is somewhat remarkable.
Mr. Nicholl.- I think the galleries ought to hear.
Q. I call your attention to the entry of $3,333.38; can you tell
me what that: represents? A. I think, Mr. Goff, it is a very
difficult matter to go orver a mass of figures right here.
(0. Well you s,:how~ me a check four that amount, from the persona1 WacOrtut into the wa accouvit? A. I want to stae




d~is f aot; f hnk I lieave stated Ft before, that tbat peiisnA
account shoiws during a period o& 10 years an aggregate amount
otf deposits of f64~000, over and above what I have started.; that
thiat substantilly represents the amaount of salary which I have
received as a pol1ice dommilasioner, and. the $14,000 profit that I
made on the sale of hmus 156 West eveuty-seoond street; now,
as to going into each one of those details and undertaking to try
and cairry my mind bac asto what thi thing is, or that thing
means for a period of 10 years, that is an absolute imp~ossfibflity;
I cannot do tbat; I do nort tlinuk that there is any business man
living can do it, nor do I think anybody else can do it; I ought
to be absolutely prepared.; I want to; be perfectly honest in all my
statements I Make, and I want to aid Mr. Goff in every possible
way to get anything he desires; but there are impossibilitiies for
any man, and that seems to be one of them.
Mr. Nicoll.- In view of that statement, does not the committee think this inquiry has been pursued far enough. He has
repeated th is statement seven or eight times in the last tOme
days; and is it not impossible for a man to remember an account for that numnber of years.
Chairman Lexow. —If he can not do it, that answers the
question.
Mr. Ni1coll. —He has said that several times.
Chairman Lexow. —If 1Mr. Golff wants to ask him ae to two or
three items, let bim do so.
Mr. Nicoll.- I do not think I could do it.
The Witness.- I have distributed and received $70,000,000
during that time, and it is impossible for a man to carry -those
figures in his head. Seventy millions of dollars I have been d-istributing. I have been taken from  my cradle to this vr
moment, all through my life. My family has been gone into.
My grocery bills and butcher billsChairman Lexow.- Hold on, hold on.
The Witness.- How many -men are there that could sit in ths
c-hair and answer the questons I htave. I do no~t thfink It is fair..
I am bound to protest against it. I want to be honest and far,
and liberal in my testimony, but I say this is not fair.
Chairman Lexow.- We have a public duty here inperform.
The Witness.- I do not agree with you, Mr. Lexow, that the
matter into which you are inquiring concerns that, nor do I
believe in the particular method in which you are performinug
it, and I do not think the peoqple of NTew York would consider it
right, If they knew it
Mr. Nicoll.- No; they do.,aemrThe Chairman.- Mr. Nlecol~, y~m ne  o  aeMc
it Is not proper.




758


Mr.- Nlcoll.-I do not know that it is prowmr
(Ihairinn Lexo~w.- Go on with the examination.
Q. You appointed Captain Docharty, did you not? A.No, sir;
I did not.
Q. Did you make Urm captain? A. Nd, sir; I did notQ. Who did? 4~ I don't kn.0ws sir; some of the other coinmissioners; I think nbmissioner Martin recommended himn f~r appokDtmnent
Q. You axpponted Oapbidn Martens, didn't you? A. I remmin
mended his appointment; yes, sir.
Q. In the sense that eaoh commissiOner has, number apportioned to him and wedited to bim  isnt thart a fact? A. That
is Igiht, sir.
Q. And, consequently, he was your appointment? A. That
Is duArged to me; yes, sir.
q. Andt~ his appoointment was made of -the -date of May 6,
1892 A. I do not recollect the date of the appointment, sir.
Q. I show you the record; this is your own rmmod, Mr.
Me~lave (showiwng wiltness book) May 6, 1892? A. That is
righ~t- yes, sir.
Q. That was the deAie he was appointed? A. Yes, Sir.
Q. I call your attention to an entry in your personal bankacoomnt, t!he head ot May 19, 1892, for $6,158.16; cmn you tell
us what thsat W?  A. I WiWltry very hard tot-ell you, but, aslI
say, It Is impossible to tell1 of all these items; I shouild say,
Mr. GoIf, that that was substantilaly -that $6,100 chmk was
drawn, yi e     hre; flfrt was about the same d-ate, in thiere,.
Q. There Is no date for the dmawing against it? A. No, fir;
but those sam supposed to take in those same motsS fthere;
I think It Is a check, sir.
Q. Can you tell the committee what That deposit repmsente6,
that $6,158.16?  A.. It represented, sulbstantially, the $6,100
that, hand pre'viowiy been drawn, and put into the busilneess and.
then YOU go bucek, ff you nofiueM through the buisiness account;
it nmighit vairy a few dollars
Q. How could It be previousl drawn when it is after the
previous balance on the face of the book? A. Well, you know,
here, sometimes these checks, when the books are baanced,
some aoxmunt ipay be out; for hinistaivo out o& that $55,000, 1
may have loaned th~e business that $6,100, and they may not
have paid it back umtil the next month, and that would come
in hieie, and thwat shows that the check of $6,100 was drawn
there;, wbat month was th4 Mr. G-off?
Q.That Is May 19, 1892? A.- And the -amount is $6,100, and
QS ix thousand one hundred and fifty-eight dollars and six.




7h9


teen cents? A. I find one here $6,K07.96; possibly that a
vary a little bit,; sometimes I mfght give them a check for the
amount of $500 to-day, and in. a day or -two give theim $600;
and in a day oir two $iey might have three or four thjmisanil
dollars that they cod sparpe, and give it tNajk to me
Do you           in what shape a deposit was made oa
idle        A.! job &r.
Q. Itave you 8fl record or any memoraj&I  whatever that
would show what that deposit was for? A. Ro3, sir
(Senator O'Oonnor takes the chair.)
Qb 8nce you have testifted that nothing went into his personal
account, emvtept your monthly salarxy of$416, and the purchase
sale of your house, and some little Investments, now, can you
tell if that $6p158.16 represented either an invesfient or the sale
of any property? A.fo; I think I have explained that to you,
Mr. Golf, by saying what the systems of transfers between the
two are, and if you will take the persoal account, and go over
the aggregate of it, and And out the result there, of the 64,000,
it seems to me that would straighten that matter for you.
Q. I would like to be straightened out on this item, If you can
straighten It out? A. I would not undertake It; I think there
was a check for about that same amount, and of the same date
that was drawn and put In the business.
Q. That appears to be after? A. What is the balimee there;
I drew $6,100, and afterwards deposited
Q. I am not so much interested in what you drew out and
what you ppt In? A. I have explained that to you; I certainly
can not epfaln to you any clearer than I have In reference to
thoxse Matters; I have done my best to make them as clear to
you as I can.
Q. The Item of $6,158.16 not being in that business book, mn
you explain what that item is for? A. There is a check In my
bushes book for about the same a-mount, and there is also a
che&k ii that personal account for about that same amnt,
havfng been drawn out, af about that same time.
By C~halrman OConnor:
Q. Do you account for it, except It was deposits In the peia0ffal
account, and by previous withdrawals from your perobmal account to your business accomnt?  6 That Is asll I msa not
remember thos things
By Mr. Golf:
Q Well, It seems that on the suite day thal Z  deposited in
your personal account, May 19th, &e sum of ki8,&16, you de




SO
pgf1ted`in  your busi-me.s awount $,2Q2.36, so tbat 4pW  w
made in both accounts on that day? A. I don't think that
necessarily follows.
Q. It appears in the books.? A. I don't think that ueesesailay
follows.
Q. Let's see; I am speaking of matters, now depo~tall here
is your personal account, which shows on Mayl17th was deposited
$6,1,58.16, and on the same date in your business account there is
a deposit of - what is that? A. It is $2,000 and something.
Q. On the same date, a deposit in tbhe busmines account of
$2,202.36? A. That is a check, sir; that shows the cheek given
toi me - K6,1'8 and some vents,
( In your business?  A. Yes, sir; taken from my busidnes
and put in there at that time.
Q~ But I want to know what it represents; I do not care abourt
its being taken out-? A. I can not make it any cleare than, I
have made it; I prefer to let it stand where it is; so far as I am
coree md, I do not think I can nake it any clearer.
Q. You have stated to the comnittee that in your businewaccounts atl matters arising from the sale of lumber, etc., went
into your business account, and into your personal accountnothing but your salary, with the exception of the sale of your;
house and some small investments that you said you may have,
made; I want you to explain it to the coimmittee? A. Will you
please add to that the other statement I made in explanation,,
that sometime, having given to the business account a check and
paying back to the business account a check; that showg a deposit
on that same day to the business aciounut of the same aimount
Q. I want you to tell how it is on the same date you shouldd
deposit $2,202 in your business account and then deposit $6,158.16
in your personal account; now, can you- explain that? A. Well,
the explanation, ft seems to me, is the fact that I had given a
check out -
Q. Not what it seems, but whbat it is? A. I can not get at it
any clearer, Mr. Goff.
Q. Can ymo give any explanation? A. No; I would not under.
take to give any different than what I have given.
By Chairman O'Connor:
Q. Does the book show a check on your busuinessaccount forthat same amount? A. Yes, sir. 
By Mr. Goff:
The. tZ   books show a dirftt; it does not show what date for
Mftif same amount? A. It is on the same date, sir.




Chairman O'OCnnor. —It shows wbat date tois c  ged ui  I
the accont.
M   o. o1 — They are returned voichers
By Chjamnan O'Connor:
Q. 3t McClave, how long have you hadl these' oIs:  wr
possession - recently? A. About 10 months.
Chairman O'Connor.- I suggest, for the purpose of expediting
matters, if there is no objection, to let counsel for the ommnittee
take these books anid he can conduot the questions qnicer anl
more rapidly.
Mr. Goff.- I have not had a chance to wmpare thenL
Chafhman OyConnor.- It is a waste of time to examine tlbee
books now. Have you any objection to his taking ti books wmil
we oome back this afternoon?
The Witneas.- If he will give them to me tls afternoo.
Griainnm   O'Coinnor. —Wil  yan give ti m      lm    iB
afternoon?
Mr. Goff.-We wil try to(
Mr. Nicoll.-We will take on adjaurment
Ohairman O'Connor.-Yes he can look item over and exmine
them dLring recess.
The Witness. —Ts is the third time he has asked questions
o      iaierming  ip em.
Mr. Goff.-They have only been here during the heaiing on
fe sessions.
The Wttness.-You have idd them aand taken them away with
yon through rea
Ohairman (YOonWra.-,We will take a recess until 2 delook; anSr
^ the mei     ^    GoffL you ca examine tose s oei s.
May 3SiSA
IPe enb-   e tosmnmttee cEn'Q ooasel ew eNe&tei,
John MeClave reammed fthe taid.
Direct examination of Mr. Goff conthaeds
Q. I would like to ask, Mr. McClave, if you can tell the naatre
of the deposit uder the head of November 7th in your persoal
bank aosoAonrti f $3,33.38?
Senator Bradley.-Whit year?,r. Goff.-Eighteen hundred and ninet%
"" L   i   96




762
The Witness.-I wouldn't like, Mr. Goff, to undertake to go
back and try with regard to that.. It is a peculiar amount; do you remember any bill being
paid to you by any person of that amount? A. I don't reoall
~uytfing about it
T This is your personal account, and not your bsiness
toawnt? A. Yes; I had explained to you just exaifly how tat
accou4 was made.
Q. By computation it appears that this amount is just onec
third of $10,000, making five cents difference? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there anything peculiar about it now that calls it to your
recollection? A It is just possible the $3,33338- isn't that
$s338, and $3,000.
Q. Ths item is just one-third of $10,000? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, it being your business, your personal case, not connected with your bdness, as youl have testified to, does it not
appear peculiar - that amouat? A. No, sir; it wouldn't appear
so to me; I couidn't tell just exacty what it is made from
Q. From what source could such an anamjount as that be drawn?
A. It woald seem as if it took in some different amounts there;
I am sue I can not tell; there may be somethg there t1at would
show it; let me see it
Q. iert   y. (ltanding witneas book) A. There is an amount
there of $3,000, and it would seem as if $333.38 mighi be added
to it 
Q. You have aoumted for that $8,000 several times; here is
anotter $3,000 deposit  A. Well, there is $2,500, and $833; yes,
I oan see just exactly where that comes now; there is $2,500, and
it woud show two monti    salt.ry at $416.66; that would just
make that amouin 
Q. You say twoi mf     ' salary; why, here i an item for
$916.16; that is $500 in addita to your months' salary; how do
you mike that out? A. Well, there is $500 there, sir.
Q. You say that includes your salary; hoiw ca you make that
oit when youar laEy appears to have been paid in here - to have
been dposited? A. Well, that is in July, is it not?
Q. Yes; well, here is your salary? A. This is November.
Q. Here is your salry, $952.56? A. In July there does not
seem to be any salary, and the deposit between July and November, those are the two checks for the salary acootuit
Q. How did you make out your salary account in that depoeitf
A. If you will add that $3,500, and add two months' salary, $41E
each, I think it will just come to that; won't it?
Senator O'onnor.-Six cents less.
The Witness. —About the Same thing thfee.




763*
Q. I donft iuiderstaud thut comp'uation; I want to know!iaw
you spent it -  A. I have expdoitned tox you, Mr. Goff, over and
over again, that when I gave a check out in my, businesiN, #A
there is $2,500 thAt was returned, come back to me from thie
business account - now, that would seem. to show that two
monthW salary had been added to, th-at $2,500.
Q. Is there any book in existence, or any imemoranduizn in
existence, which will bear out what you huve now stated? A.
Do those passbooks go back to that date; no, I don't think they do.
Q. No; you haven't brought your peasbooks beyond 1881. A.
They were destroyed by the fire; you have got my books back to
1889; my personal account; you have my business accounts back to
1.891; now, I had emphlaned to you that~ al those books prior to
those dates, I have brmught them all to you; WaI that I had were
destmoyed by fire April 12.
Q. You have explained, or at leiast attempted an
of one item of $3,000; now, there is another item of $3,000, wlih.
yogi- deposited in your private bank aoonmt?
Senstoi Thiadley.-Under what date?
r. Gtoff.- January 12, 1892.
A. Now, you see, Mr, Gof, there Is $2,000 and $11,O@M
Q I don't care how you spent it A. I haven't spent It; it is
not spent at all; the book there proves conqc,-ibsively that those
checks were drawn out; the amounts are there, and they were
deposited back.
Q. I am not inquiring what you drew out; I am inquiring abojrt
what you puit in? A. Well, it shows just exactly what I put in.
Q. Where did you get that money from? A. The bok shows
where I got it from.
Q. lExplain that A. There is $2,000 and $1,000.
Q. Those show the returcn drafts? A. That shows~f at f Bt
hack a return draft that I had drawn and deposited in the biil
ness accoiuAt from the private aAeommt; that is,what it shqw;
and -that shows when that baok was balanced those drafts mme
back to me again, and that accounts for the $3,000 deposit
Q. Do you mean to say, then that you borrowed $S,000 from
your business account? A. No, I didn't borrow that; as a rule,
I drew a check for that; or checks; when I drew my cheeks
for my private account, of $3,000, and when the business
account gave it back to me, I deposited it back in that again.
Q. And that is your explanation of how that deposit was
made? Al Yes, sir; and that is my explanation of all mattes
in that personal book, outside of my salary; p55,000 and the
$25,000.
Q. What motive was there for you to draw. checks from ymn,




784
bu~nsess whenwe find by those checks that there were depoelts
made in your business account on the same date? A. The
business account may have been a little short, for a day or
for two days; that *equently occurs.
Q Your hook shows that deposits have been made from day
to day in yoor busiueam aocount? A. Not in my personal
Q. In  your business account? A. Yes, hi my business
wsoonut; we make tbms pretty niearly every day.
Q. Your business aocorumt shows that deposits were madel
from day to,day? A. My buiness account shows dcpoeft's
zmadeQ. Youi, bunafe  eos accunt shows that deposits were made
from  day to dayl? A. Yes, sir.
Q Doesn't that imply that your business went on, making
deposits froni your businews sources? A. Certainly; but doesn't
ft imply alsol this fact: suppose I had $10,000 in my busines'.
account tio-day, and I had a payment of $12,000 to makea it
would be   2,000 short, wouldlnt it? Now, suppoing I loaned
from my private. accouamt $2,O00 for a few days to tWie me over
to make that popd, and they gave it to me as soon as they
got the aaooruit again.
Q. I confess It is beyond my understanding. A. It is not
beyond a buslnesm ma~n'g; a bus-iness main can clearly understand tha, Mr. GCoff.
Q. You have testified from an inspection of the record from
headquarbters, that Captain Price was appointed by you on
December 23, 1892? A. Whtatever the record shows is right
Q. That is, you have testified, coimniassioner?-  A. What is
that?
Q. Deeember 23, 1892, I find in your business account that
there was deposited on Novenbier 17, 1892, just about one
month prior, the sum of $10,743.02; can you explain to me or
give the ommn~ttee toc umlerstand where that deposit came
from? A. Oh, that would be impoisible, Mr. G-off; this is
November 17th.
Q. Yes) just otne month prior to Captain Price's appint-ment
by you? A. If you mean to imply that that money came fromu
anything of that kidd, I state that Is is abboalutely and pojsi
tively false.
Q. Please prove the fawt and do not assert so much? A.
What answer do you want?
Q. Can you account for what that $10,743 was for? A. I
tke it for granted that it is for the payment of some bill that
I had against someblod* or other.




Q.Can you naime It to me? A. No; there are very much
larger ~sums than -thast in there.
q~ I ama asking you about that sum now? A. I don't remember; there is one $15,O00 I'D there. 
(~Keep down to the question? A. I can not recollect
Q.Can not give any explanation of it? A. No, sir; exoepta
big it is a bxxa fide business trasacion.
Q.Is there any pa~r or recar'd in exi tence that wil show
what that deposit is? A. Except prior to the fire?
9.That is December 2.3d-November 17., 1892? A. None.
Q.None in existence? A. The book daift go back as far an
diat; the fire was in April, 189,2.
Q. April, 1892? A. TApril, 1S9f2.
Q.That is November? A. Yes, sir.
Q.Yow, I find 'in your personal account -of Jaunary 17ththat is, two maouthe after the first deposit, and one month
after the app ~rftntnent of Captain PricL-.I find in your personal
acco-ont a d1>ait ot $3,000; can you aeocmit for that? A.' q,~
sir; I d ou'(l hikto    $3,000, ther  is $2,000, and there is
$1,02         a.' `).yu?    -Isy ta      ae
9.T~ ~,Q0  a  aki~gyo?      Isa, ha mke $3,0010,
$1,000 and $2,000.
Q.Tat mmitkes $1.3,743, that you can not~ io".nb for, con not
trace, the depositf? L&. don't think you ought to~ piat It In that
ligh1t
Q. I sam aeking you ff you- can. aoeount for those deposits? A.
I f~tlnk they are accountod for there.
Q~How did tW~ come and fran! whom did that come? A.
I oerhkinly could not.remember whie-re I got a check five years
age fo~r $10,000 for somue of my business; I will say to you this:
I have had accouts thirty odd thoutand dollarsQ. This is only a year and a half ago, in 189, that I am
asking you about nNow; Jarruary 7, 1S0, a deposit. of $3,0900;
cmn you g-bve xmy account of it? A. I say that that book in
yawr hand, to     L~im  for -the $3,AN  i~t shows that I drew a
$2,000 check and a $1,000 ch~e&k
Q. I amn wt sajng whast you dr~ew; I snasm  n  where the
deposit esune A-om? A. It wouldcoebAt                    e
ag~.in would It not, if I took it bask agnan.
Mr. Bradiey.-Were the checks for $2,000 and $1,000 drnwn
before the $31000?
Q. shtow liie senator when they were drawn? A., Here is the
rehazn check (dicMatig); now these axe chocks~, foir instaince
there is one of $45,000; that shows that I drew a cheek of $45,000
on this amcount, deposited it In the tbusiness account; I took that




766


cheek and paM   the mortgage off of 124 West Seventy-seoad
tfreet to the New Yock IMe InsuaiO Company; now, that is
the pritiple.
Q. Answer the question? A. HEere is the $551000 depoit
which is the sale of the hose; this shows hre that I drew a
hecak fram this aeouim; there is $3,000 I deposited; I drew a
lceck from this aceou.t between these dates of $1,000 aid;,000.
Senator O'Oonnor.-Does it show when the $3000 and the
$1,000 was drawn?   A. The bank system   don't put the date
for the return voueers, no banik puts tie date; but the date
must be between those dates eCsa; it ha   got t  be
between those datea. 
By Mr.:ff:
Q. Bu it may be after th depo? A S        ai ting 
be posible.
By Senator Oantor:
Q. They dcn't put any     emoratdnm o   t ie dates of t
woueoherg? A. No; Do bank ever does that,
By Mr. Gxff:
Q. I tod also in you  per aIl amcot ta      at oa Janury 81t,
893, tiat if two weeks afte the $3,000 was deposited, that
me was $2,000 deposited; have you ai    ady  adswl       to
mbke?   &. I asi going to answer ail your questso in oomeettkn with that matter just tte sauie as I did anwer the other;
I think I have been pefev y fir about it as fair as a man
might be expected to be.
Q. You have testfied that Oaa      t     w     appofnted*
you? A. Yes, air; that is true.
Q.   x aoied aDecember 30, 189f? A I dort reemmben;
whever tie record sows.
Q. 'te record sows tha;    you hae idetdfied  B? A I thIfk
I have 
Q. I ind on your pets   a oount of otober 2, 181, tiat there
s ant eotry of a deposit of $3,91.666; oE  you explain that? A
haMt would seem to imply tat I gpt saary of $^16 and $3,50.
Q Your salary deducted fron that amaont would leave $3,500?
A. It seems to be fihe (16 of salary.
Q. Oan you say from what soture ttht 3,500 was drawn? 
*o, sir. I oeamot say; It seems to me tfat it s i boesl oe for,
bnain being tb say so in oomneotoa with_ matter of tat kbid.
Q. I uderstood you to say that the thiest check which you
drew upon the bank of North America, whee the pole penain




767T


fund was deposied, was the sum of $75? A. Yes,Asr;TI sbrm,-4
Q. Tat woul be fo the superintendernt? A. I don't remeiber OMI there was any, su~perintenkdenUt at that time; I am
Inclined to tbhtk-~
Q. That would be Ike b~ighestl A. Excepting in this eawe
supjo.e that a. man hvAd been dismissed from the departmentso that. you will understand it-and the courts had reinstated
him under the law, for all unexpended balanies of money in the
hands of the treasurer for the uniform police force go to the
pollce pension fund-now supposing that af~ter a year or two
~esthe court puts back a man, that money has been deposited
the pension funvd, sand by resoution of the boood vof police
AmianineMs it goes back to Wte salhry ac~ooient of the uniformed
n~mesof the force, and that is paid; -now, outside of dta  I
camuot coneei.ve of anything thwCt we had to py; h~ere the other
d&y a iman drew nearly $4,000 out of the pension fund; those are
dmssdfrom the dprmn
Q. You didn't make that explanation the other day? A. I
don't think there was anything that brought it out.
Q.I asked you the highest sum. that could be peAd out of that
pension fund? A. IPor a pension.
Q. Is there not some other cause by which the pension fund
osid be drawn upon ex~cept the ones you have indicated? A. If
there Is any check you dem~re In oonnecton with the pension fund
at the poiie department, If you will state to me what It is If such
a cheek e~existed, I will promise to give it to you;- I can not
dfo any mine than thiat, cannI  And I rep-eat the statemaent over
and over again that It is a thorough, absolute, perfect absurdity
for you or auybody else to suppose that the treasurer of the police
department could ever d-aw one dolla of the police fundis and use
it-for his awn personal purposes.
Q.Now that you are througti will you. please take a memo,
mdmof some checks -that I would lie you to produce? A.
VW  s   N i you will give them, to me I wil produce them.
QWHIl you please -prod'uce aheck dated January 23, 1890?
Senator O'(ktmur- There might bave been more than one
abeek on that date, might there not? 
Th-e W-Itnes&- -1-ere might have been a hundred cbeeks on that
~fty; there are about 1,200 penwionera; we draw 1,P0 of them
every quarter; if you can give me thfe amount, you had better de
ht~ I wil brkog, however, every check under date ot January
W, 11890; that will cower -that ground.
0neo %Ouonro-You wil produ-ce Wl the checks of ta




768


9hie Winess.- Yes, sir; I will produce them all.,    It is suggested to me that you direct your booleoj
mitng those st>bbbkoos down agaia   n the Banis of igor
iAmnerica for 1890? A. Yes, sir; are theke any o^hr dates you
Q. No, not at thepresent time; you tefified here before *st
it was common rumor in the police department that appointments
and promotions had to be paid for? A. I have testified, Mr. Goff,
to this effectQ. I haven't asked you.that question  A. Let me quote yo
the language under which I testified; I testified to the fact that
never since the polee department was created, 40 odd years ago
I don't believe there has ever been a time when rumors of thi
kind have not been afloat, no matter who the commissioners have
been.
Q. When you get through-   A. Yes, sir; that is the answer
that I made before to you, sir.
Q. I asked you if those rumors were snt in eiktlatlion sinee
you were commissioner of the departmen, and you answered
that they were? A. Yes, sir; that is true.
Q. I asked you if you ever took eeasion to ivestigate those
rumors, either as an individual commissioner or by aetion of the
board, and you answered that you dMi not? A. NAi  s
Q. Did you ever hear those rmnor affecting you plrmow;tR?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever hear anytg said whsemr In caetioe wit
the appointment of certain poifcemmn        N  pas to f hat
connected your name with their appointments? A. Never heasd
of such a thing, Mr. Goff.
Q. You never heard of such a thing? AJ. No, sir
Q. And you say here to-day that you are in absolute ignoranao
of any rumor or report ever having beein in oipulation in 1i
city touching  certain  captains and sergeants whom   you
appointed having paid for their promotico? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Thi.t is an absolute truth? A. That is an absolute faet, *s1
Q. An abslute truth; do you know a man by the name of Gris
fith? A. Griffith? Not to my rewoection; what is his businest
Q. The name is peculiar in itsef, I thimk; do you know a man
by the name of Griffith? A. I don't reeal, sir, of knowing ang
one of that name.
Q. You knew a man who kept Sixth Avenue hotel? A. Where.
abouts on Sixth avenue?
Q. Don't you remember the tri  that you presided at where
you declared the house not to be a disorderly house? A. I
ecl ared?
Q. You and your bwther coanriskers? A. Now, I stanu




769


rigJl upon my report in regard to that vote, M  Goff, as well as
every other vote.
Q Do you know the house? X. That house was built when I
was a boy; I lived in Forty-fifth street -
Q. Did you know the proprietor of that houre? A. I did not,
sir; I never knew him in my life, sir.
Q. Answer my question? A. I have.
Q. Did you ever know the name of Griffith before? A. In
connection?
QO In that connection? A. No, sir; never; not to my receooVon.
Q An absolute stranger to you? A. An abusolte srangew to
me. 
Q Did you ever know that Oaptain Stevenson, whom you appointed to the police force, was reputed to have paid for his
appointment  A. I never heard of such a thing, sir.
q This is the first thing you have ever heard? A. Yes, sir;
the first that I have ever heard.
Q. Did you know that Griffith was a friend of his?. I
never knew that sir.
Q. Where was Captain Stevenson put after his promotiro?
A. I owldn't tell you that; you will have to refer to the records
Q. Don't you know he was sent up among the goats? A. In
-the upper part of the city?
Q. Yes? A. Not as I remember of; I couldn't tell you to save
my life; the record will show.
Q. Don't you remember Griffith calling upon you and telling
you that unless Stevenson was put in the uptown precinct he
would make trouble? A. Mr. GoffQ. Now come, answer yes or no? AL No, sir; any m  tii
ever told you that tells an absolute unqualified lie. 
Ry Senator Bradley:
Answer the question.. No, sr; I don't Enow   Mr.
Griffith; never to my knowledge have I ever seen him in my life.
Q. You have heard your son-in-law here testify in relation to
the appointment of a policeman by the name of Solomon Cohn,
have you not? A. I remember his testimony here, sir, the other
day; I don't recall any particular names in connection with it
Q Don't you remember that he testified about a policeman
that was half an inch too short, and that when he paid $30 he
grew up? A. I heard his testimony on that; it was. absolutely
false, however.
Q! It is an absolute falsehood? A. Yes, sir; I will show you
that in a minute —
L        97




FSenabor O'Connor.-When your counse comes to examine you
ie will bring out all these explanations
Q. Did you ever have any, onversation wh yor son-n-law
n reference to Gohn? A. No never in my life.. Nor have ay w         oitten communication with any one in refer
ene to Oohn? A. oA t to ay recollection of mine
Sow, you are positive about anything that you chraterize as
absolute falsehood? A. I haven't the slightet recollection
mf aWn man by the name of Cohn that I ever appointed; such a
man might have been appointed, but if I recollect correcdiy, after
Gr angaer' testimony the other day, the young man went up
i. hkeadquarters, and I think he said there was no such name on
ie records of the police department
Q. As olomon Cohn? A. Yes, sir; they gave me a mem-oa4Inn at the time and I know tha most of these names never
cxistedL
OQ.nd you have no re  leooen of it? A No, sin
Q, I)o you emPeiber ever having reeeived a letter frm Cohnl! b XI oouldn't teI the olhn, a poiieman?
Q. YeQfs this Slommon  ohn? A. If he was a policeman.
Q. Yea? A. EPy.     n that imakes an application wrtes in
is own hand the    i cat 
QD Did you receie a leer from him in addition to his appr
atiom? A. I haveat any recolection of it, sir.
Q Did you receive a letter from  our son-in-law, in reference
to Qhn? A. I dont think that I dil
QYou don't think that you did? A. No, sir
Are you as postive in that belie a you are I   ie oEie?
dhnga that you have testified to as faisehoods? A I think I am
Wp.y deea in that, Mr. Goff.
Q. You stated that it was your c       at when a person
Ilde an   piation to you to require that he should secure th
ndrsement of some well known citiaen. A    Somebody.
Q. That ins invariaMe rule with you? A   SomebOd that I
know.                                   (
Q. So far as your son-in-law's testimony is concerned touchisg Soomon Coihn you deorwame it as absoruely untrue? A
In whiat respect?                       I
Q. In all respetB. A. I don^t just reca wat he testified to
as to Cohn now; if you will make the stat  tQ. You testified he a Xent ao t          yo  mt O en ry was
reheshe   as to his height? X Yes, sir; I sr if he made any
statement3 as to tthr t is otshibtei false, bec e e eha  to
pass two boards of sirgemo   one of the civil service and examin
tig boars; I shxuld ell a pollee surgeon, if I were you, Mr.
Sin reference to tHiai               '. 




. Is that you son-ln-aw's sa         ir       w
E. That is his naue..     Is talt his writing? A~ Y-.^ a.ir.
Q. Do you reneme er eve havig r     f  S? E YEt
Bir; that eems to be dated Oe4oer 25 188. and the lette wotd
seem to -Win about it
Q. I wil look after the dates? A. Yes; was the man appointed?
I don't know.
Q, No    there is some paper here; it is anI applioatioa onl the
paRper of a polie departrent of the city; do yu remember that
(anoter paier a own witnes)? A. That nmust be hi- hmaawrfiing, li ^,  sir residing at 262 West One Hundred and Twenty
feourhi seet; is fiEat the manaa-r. Gmraer sad lived in Jeme:Y
Q. No; it was Cooper lived ih Jersey, but Clohns all lived in
eKew York; now ths paper reads —it is called an apipkation?. I would like to have you read the Raper.
Q. It reads "Poiice department of tihe city of New York, No.
|o00 (Mubtrry steet, New York, November 13, 1888." Bear the
sate in your mind, please. " Honorabe John MGolave, police oormn
nssioner.-Dear $iw: I would like to get thie piti'o of patromean
an the polee force, as I woald like to better my position, for I
have worked for G. W. Judd for tte past nine yeaxs diriving
trud, at 45 West sreet; New York, and would like to better
it if I Cooud  I remain, yours reapefully,  olon      Co h  262
West One HEired ad Twoent-fourth street" Now, this letter
that you received frm     s-oiam-in-law hbas the printed heding,
G. Granger, produce merchant, 145 West street, New York." 1
do not read the whole of it, but in reference to the busines~s
"New York, October 25, 1889 "-remember the date. A. The
otier one was 1888.
Q. One year after Oohn's aippeation? A. It ordinarily takes
a year or a year and a half to get on the eligible list
Q.  adinarily? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is the rle?  A. As a rule from the time they flrst
nmke their application, urless it just happens to strike the examni
nation of the civil servie b oard i will take from a year to a
year nd a half before their papers come back; they only hold
one examination a year sometimes; never move thain two.
Q. After the civil service board certifies them to you how lon
does it take for the appolnamnenb to be mide? A. Ch, they are
gererally made within a reasonable tjir
Q. Wihat dio you call a reasonable time? A I generally mad
mine, as a rue, within about a week.
Q. Within about a week? A. Generally tihas  yes, sir,
Q. This letter of your son-i-law read 1889; howo many years
had he been married into your family at this time? A. He had
been mnaried in 1887.




Q.That is two yearn? A. Yes, sir.
Q.. "Dear' father: The bearer of tis So1olomon  ok   O
vartmn, who staisNo. 30) on the eligible list with a percentage
90.34, and the enclosed letter is the ome you desired him, to gett
from Mfisar. REge & Otis, which is considered the most reliable
comm issioin house in ouru buisiness  Not only having passed a
good percentage he has oth-er qualificatirns which are deemed
essential to make -a good oifficer, not having to my knowledge
touched any kind of liquor since he has been with us, aad others
gay the same thing of him while iii their employ. In asking you
to, ap-pointt him I ask a~ fav~orr that I may have no right to, which
will only benefit me through his brother, who is our head sniesman, and any past savors the beiare~r has done me in ridding my
stuff in time for sale. I write this, as I do not like to bother you
by calling when so busy, and I am informed you are to, appoint
to-day. Trusting that this will reach you in time to be acconiplished, I remain, my dear father, your loving son-in-law, Gideon
G3ranwger. A. That sounds, much like him.
Q.The letter that the writer of this says that you required
Oohn to produce simply says: "lEge & Otis. To whom it may
concerm This is to certify th-at we have known Solomon Cohn
for several years and have always found him to be sober, honest
and industrious and worthy of confidence. Yours truly, Ege &
OtiWa Dated October 25, 1889, the same date as yo-ur sun-p
law's letter? A. Yes, sir, and that is a reputable business house.
M1r. Nicoll.- I rise to the statement of a very serious question.
Senator O'Coinnor.~-What is that, Mr. Nicoll? Confine yourself
to making the objection.
Mr. Nicoll.-Y-es, right to thve points I asked Mr. McClave the
nighnt before last, on the occasion of hi!s giving his testimony, to
scud me all the papers relating to any person in the department
oonnected with anybody who had been mentioned in Granger's
testimony. The next morning he, or somebody, his clerk-, handed
me these letters that have been read here by Mr. Golf. I ba~d
them in front of me on this table, and someone -I don't know
who-has taken them out of my papers and used them here on
the examination of Mr. McClave. I intended t~o use them, on my
redirect examination, and I do not believe the committee will
countenance such a sort of proceeding against counsel I want
to linow from Mr. Goff how he got those papers.
Senator O'Connor.- How can we settle matters of thiat kind,
Mr. Ni1coll? If you have lost your papers I do, not see how the
committee can be resp onsible for them.
Mr. NIcolL- But I have not lost my papers. I want to know
how these papers. came into the possession of M~r. Goff, and I think
it is his duty as a brother lawyer of mine -to tell me.




77)
Wf. Giof.-! will recoginize a privillege of my natlkmality t
answering Mr. Nico~i's question by putting another. H3ow is it
that you turned around and threatened Granger, going out of
tihis court-room, by saying that after this trial you would send
him to the State prison?
Mr. Nicoll.-To show you tbat I have not the slightest objectioni
to the exhibition of the papers, I might state that I handed them
to Mr. Eggleston of the Wo rld and to Mr. Sutherland, and they,
handed them back I then put them down here on my desk and
in some way or~ other they were taken from out of my papers and
read.
The Witness.- Mr. Bamnes handed them to you, Mr. Nicoll; he
brought them from police headquarters.
Mr. Goff.-~ihese papers reached me in a perfectly legitimate
way so far as I know. They come to me and I use them. I have
a right to use them. I know nothng about thek" being In MIfn
Mc~lave's office.
Mr. Nicoll.-They are addressed to him.
Mr. (Iif.-There are oth er papers a-ddresw_ t* b~fr which I
AL- ve toco
Senator O'Gonnor.-I do not see how tehis  gte is going
to protect counsel in this mutter. Mr, Goaff  x mayko
edge of the disappearance of the pse*era
Mr. NiledIL- Not h* ssyc the,?Wm am   ft N-a *rough somm
channel.
Senatm  GWtu"-          A 3l  how).Ra a AifflAt k' kniw haw they
came into the pcm~ewem oP. 31i Go1X
Mr. G..-Ista&* tivl" A g& t  pspem* in a pederfrly fair,
Way,
MW,' YZWtct'-We Imv uot. so frrt forgetten vrselvese as to act
toww&i eack other tb-~ar as honorable meet and as lawyer& I
~Ja.st ahked, M  ESutherlst4, "~Did you give those papers to Mr.
(3vwff t" he said, "1 No;J gave them back to y-ou.." I have no idea
that MO. Eggleston gav'e them to Mr. Go-ff,' for I have known him
for many Years. What I want to know i5,$ have I got -to sit around
'here with a rail around me? Are the gentlemen here ready to
purloin my papeis on every hand and then use them in this *ay?
Mr. Goff.-This is altogether an unseemly exhibition. 
Mr. Nicoll.- I beg the gentleman's pardon. It "is not, and 'if it
o(eured in a court of justice imagine the indignant reprimand
that would follow.
Senator Pound.- Who do you ask us to reprimand?
Mr. Nicoll.- I do not ask you to reprimand anybody l6eea-use
I do not suppose you will reprimand anybody. I do ask you to
instruct counsel to tell me how he became in possession of papers
belonging to me.




774


Mr.  off. —The whole thing is simply this, I received these
papers in an envelope directed to me, without any name or any.
thing else. I got them this morning.
fi. cIcolL-You do not know where they came4wT?      I
Mr. Gof.-I know no more about it than you, Mr. darm   mn 
I spY>ose I have received 20 anioymouas cmunicatioa s tbis
oraing, t did not know wheer they were ever iu Mr.
tMcOaves possession or not
Senator Pound.-You knew    nothing about them until you
received them?
Mr. Goff.- No, sir; nothing.
Senator O'Connor.- And you received them through the mails?
Mr. Goff.-Yes, sir.
Senartor O'Oomnor.-I do not see how we can control those
matters. Evidently Mr. Goff has beeen in receipt of various
anonymous communicatiom     He received these papers aimong
tnany others.
Senator Cantor.-But thie are not a/nonymbus?
Senitor (YCoonor.-If you will trace out the man, Mr. Nicoll,
fhat pncoins your papers, we will exclude him from ths ourt
room. Mr. Goff makes a perfetatly legitaately explainatin of
Mis custody of thee patpers. I do not see how we can question it
If you can get the man wht did that I will assure you that his
attendfane  efore e this coamittee will be very brief
]M. Ntcoll.-I care nohing about these pper. They were
birought to me fo my ue in cross-examin tton anad I must ask
e committee to supply me with some seat which will be su-f
iemwtly guarded.                       -           1
Siator O'Connor.-Yam must be more hoiee In yoao company.
peeed   with the examintoxn
Mfr. Nicol. —See where I sit, ounsel to the right of me, oounsel
a tlte left oa nme  counsel in frozr of me, audience bedmnd nle,
d I can not leave a paper uplon the desk unless it disappears
Serati r Bradley.-Then you had better get a gattling gum.
Mr. Goff.-I wish to say abtout two words hi the matter.  I
received those papers in the manner I have explained. When I
saw the nature of the papers, looked at; them, for there were no
ceans for me to look to identify them beyond the fact that they
carne to me and,the newspaper comment, it struck me thaf Mr.
IMcOlave had denied knowledge of the existfene of the Oohn
transaction, and I would be false to my duty if I did not avail
myself of the opportmnity to use these papers.
Senator O'Coomor.-We see the materllity of these pLapers
It simply shows that a transaction of that kind exIsed. Whetre
~fr MoCave remembers it or not is another mater




775
Sf. NiooiL-I ^   thoem for cros-eo amsnsiola.
Wi.tie s&M-r. Nitdd has been iW the room for two days aTwagw.y     Mr e. Goffmt 
>Q Do yon reaem  e   a matter whle Superintendfent Murray
was at the head of the department being brought before the
board touching certain charges made in a publio newspaper in
ts oiyy amcusig the police departinent of protecting gambling
hells and other places of evil resort. A. I don't recall it, sir.
Q Dotn't recall that either? A. No, sir.
Q Do you remegber the board of police commissioners passing
a resolution requiring the author or person alleging these charges
to go before the board and give testiuony relating to them? A.
How long ago is tihat?
Q. In 1892? A. I don't know, sir; the record will show that.,  Have you no reeollection of it? A. No, sir.. No recollection of it? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remiember the board passing tfis reslution, adopbted
t a meettin of the board of police held February 9,1892: Whereas,
In the edition of the Mail and Express of February 5, 1892,
appeared an article charging the police department of this city
wf.it affolding protection to violations of the law and receiving
specific monV considerations therefor: Resolved, That the superintendent cae prmpt and rigid investiation to be made into
the afoitead idlegstion and all matters pertaining thereto, and
that he call upon the author of said ctrges and upon any and
all persois for the sabmission of proof in subsitantia;ion thereot,
reporiag  the reslt theof to this board to the end that such
action may be taken as the proofs submitted may warrant or
justy." Do yo   remember tat resolution? A. Yes, sir, I do;
I thibk it a very proper one.           (
Q. Tat being a proper resolution and your remembering it, do
you remeiwber what steps were taken in pursuance of that res'
hrtion? A. I know this: That the Mail and Express had made
a number of statements that liquor saloon3, more particuiarly
along the lines of Eihth and Third avenue were open and violating excise law; they came out every night in the paper, giving
the placs nd th dte, or the street they were loated in; the
papers seemed to follow up that oD pesistently that the board of
police conmmisisotners though it would be very proper to order an
investigation and find out whether or not there was any trth in
those statemets; they were so investigated, and reports were
made bb1* to the board of police commiasioners; they are a mat



776


t-lerof record in the department, andi my miciollectionl of it Iis now
that about two-thirds of all the pinees as stated as being liquor
saloons had never been liquor saloons at all; tbhey were ta"I (w
shops and dry goods stores and b~akier shops, and every higeki~c
but liquor saloons - a very large number of them; those we,
the re~ports that came back to the board; that is my reoollectiei
of itQ. Are you not reckless i' that Oatatement? A. No, Sir.
Q. You are clear upon the ftata of your answer? A. Quite
dlear that In very many of those csses that wws fo'und to be Lb,Q. You say they made charges to you. ot liquor saloons being
open; let me re-ad to you a list of chiarges that -they m-ade: Faro
banks, No. 512 Sixth avenue, Albert J. Adams; did you ever hear
of each a man.? A.. I have heard tbat there was such a mana It
existence, but I have never yet seven him.
Q.We will call him Al. Adams. A.. I have never met such a
man.
Q. Do you know him as a gambler? A.I know no such a thing.
Q. As a backer of policy s~bioqv? A. I know no su&i thing.
Q.Has he never been raided since you, were commissioner of
police in any of his fa-ro, bainks in thils city? A. I do't~ know.
Q. Do you know anything at all about f'aro bamks? A. I don'i
know a faro bank When I see it
Q. Do you know anything about the existence of faro banksq
in tNs eity? A. I know of none; I have no knowledge of them.
Q~. I am not asking you for your personal knowledge; I am ask —
ing you -as a commissioner of police? A. I have -no knowledge.
Q. Yon have no knowledge of a faro, bank existing in this city?
A. If you say my personal knowledge of a faro bank, I have no
personal knowledge at all; if you should ask me this queefl4)n:
HTas any gambling place existed in the city of New York; hasi
any house of -prostitntion ever existed in the city of New York; has,
any hmpro'per place of thbat character ever existed? I would say
to you very promptly, Mr. Goff, yes; -always have existed, always
will exist: dto exist tn a grea-,ter or less ex_.,tent to-da,-y, and emist
in every large city in the imiveis.-; blut!1 would alsc~ add, Mr. Goff,
that I believe that crime of,ill kLinds is kopt down better in the
city of New York than it is in any other city; and I would asay
to you, that if crime did not exist, if there were no violations or
l aw, the city of NewYotrk need not pay $5,000,000 a year for its
police force; you, -need have no, courts, -no jury,aird you need not
arrest 85,000 or 90,000 people every year of our lives; thait is what
it is expended for; I would -not be such a fool as to sit here and0
say different; I believe to-day there,are as manry pm~stltutes 4i
the city of New York as there as ever was; that lis, my honets




777


oonvictoAi; all the difference is that they are located in flats and
apartmert-houses, and such places as that
Q. You ay that gambling-houes and faro aalnks and all s8m1
iastitutions will always be in the city of New York? A. Yes,
sir; that is my belief of it.
Q. You say they will always be in the cty of New Yo&? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Do you expedt to be in the police department? A. I hope
art; I would prefer that you were there in my place; perhaps you
think you mighit run it better than it is at present
Q. I know I would not have so much money in the bank if I
were a police commissioner? A. If you had worked as hard as
I have you would; you have put proof in here that before I went
into the police departnent I was worth as much money as I am
here to-day; your own witnesses testified to that fact.
Q. Try and keep your temper. A. It is pretty hard work to
keep that with you sometimes; you are a pretty severe rossexaminer, and if I had you in this chair for three days as you
have had me, perhaps you would not stand it as well as I do; I
sppreciate you and I know that you are a very able man.
Q No 529 Sixth avenue, Albert J. Adams, do you remember
ever knowing of a faio bank there? A. I never knew-persmo
ally, I never knew of a fare bank in my life; I never was in one
In my life; I never was in a gambling-house.
Q. No. 7 Park place, Albert J. Adams; do you know anything
of that place? A. No, sir.
Q. No. 84 West Thirty-first street, Albert J. Adams; do you
know anything about that place? A. I will answer you gnerally that I know nothing about any fauo bank in the caI of
New YvAi
Q. I asm asking you as a commn kner of police?  k A nd I
am  angw      Y y —
Q So 88 WOt -hirty-At street, Albert J. Adams; did you
ever hear anything of that? A. I never heard of any f those
placese
No. 238 West Thirty-first stree, Gideon Howell; do you
know of that? A I do not Know t
Q. No. 38 Dey street, Jim Wakely; do you khow of tiat? A.
No, sdr.
Q. No. 35 West One Hundred and Foty-seond street Bob
Moran; do you know of thait? A3. fese nmastem  nele  hive
oome beore us at all officially, aind that is all.
Q. Nol 101 West Thi.rty-fourh  street, HemQ,  G    X I
dont know any of these people.
98




713


Q. No. 161 West Thirty-first street, Johm Kelly; do you know
of that? A. No, air.
Q.No. 32 West Thirty-sixth street, Canfield & Ox.; did you
ever hear of Oeanfield gambling house? A. No, sir.
Q. Or 3ohm Daly? A. I have heard his name frequently, many
times.
Q. No. 19 East Twenty-sxth atr~et, Thurby, Eden & Mead; did
you ever hear of that gm1g house? A. No6, sir.
Q. No. 37 Broadway, tnMyad did you hear of that? A..
Is that that they existed
Q.I am giving you the charges which state that they existed,
made against the police department; this is the charge on which
this resolution was pa.sed; No. 35 West Thirty-fifth street,
French Red; did you know anything abou that? A. No.
Q. No 5. West Thirty-four-th  tet,(haRley Reed; do you
krow anything about that? A. No, sir.
Q. No~ 39 West Twenty-Dn*ul street, Johnt Daly; do you know
any thing about that? A. No, si~lr.
Q. No. 8, Barclay street, Connors & Daly? A. I know
no-thing, about them.
Q. Twelve, Ann street, Connors & Doyle? A. I know
no~thing, except they comeu<fficialy, 
Q. No. 1, Ann street, George Costigan? A. The same answer.
Q. No, 3, Boaxclay street, Pat Gallagher? A. I say the game
answer; the only way I would hear o4 these places would be
under an official communication; under that resolution there
would be an answer to all these things.
Q. o. 2M7, ThIrd avenue, Bob Hugghes; No. 59, Fulton street,
Isaacs & Co.; 137 West Forty-second street, Jim Trapprahagfen;
No. 141 West Forty-first street, Crawford & Co.; No. 57 West
Twenty-eighth St~reet, Dink. D~avls; vow, commissioner, these
charges wiere published In the newspapers referred to, and the
board of! police passed a resolut1ion inatructing the superintendent to tnvestigate these ohargew; you have testified to that,
and recognited the resohitkim? A.Istand by the record, what.
ever the record shows.
Q. I will read to you the letter ftram the superintendent in
som-formity with, your resobhtion: 'Editor Mali and Express.
February 10, 1892. Inkclose you herewith copy of preamble
and resolutlm adopted by the board of poliee, at a meeting
held Febrrmry 9, 1892, relatin to the publication In the Maill
and Express of Fiebruary 5th, of charges against the member
of tbis deparhnieutt, alleging that protection is afforded by them
to v Itokt" of the law Mrr money ommMeratkon. I respectfully
ask thkat yitwill at once furnish to me sueh proof In relationh




7fl0


thereto a mVai be in your possemion or in thfat of any other
person within your knowledge, in order that I may cause
prenpt aiid rigid investigation  therein. Very truly yours,
William Murray, superintendent" Do you remember anyting
about that letter? A. That you take from the official record?
Q Yes, sir? A. That must have been the letter that the
snperinteudent sent to the Mail and txpress, and afterards
he has made his report to the police Bonm ne    sendjng to
them a -copy of the letter, which he had sent to the MDll and
Ixpriess with whatever taformation he had in reference to it.
Q Did the board of police hear the testimony of one single
witnss  regaodig tose chtarges?  A. Perhaps they were not
Q. Did the board of police hear the testimony of one single
witness regarding those charges.? A. Won't you show An the
repodt of the snperilntendkeit?
Q. Answer the questiont A. I can not recollect
By SemIatwr O'Oonnor.
Q. Do you remember? A. No, sir; I dont
Q. Have you no reoollectWoio? A. oic
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Now, as a matter of fact, the board of police aetw
dropped the matter absolutely after they passed that rewlution, did they not? A. Perhaps the report of the msperint~ncdent would show that there was not a word of truth in it.
Q. Don't you know that when charges of such a serious
character as fthoe were, made by a resapousible awspaper,
charging the department, of which you, as one of the oonmaissioners, were the head-charging you with corrupti-om-was it
not your duty to institute an investigation of the t rath or
falsity of those charges yourself? A. No, sir.
Q. It was not? A. Neo
Q Thbat is your understanding? A   htbit is my anderstandmug of it; it would keep us busy all the time to Investigate
lhe-se rumors.
Q. I wish I had your vitality, commissioner? AL I wish I
had yours, Mr. Goff; I hoope I may get it some day.
Q. Do you understand your duties as a police conmmussolnr
to be such that when serious charges, charging corruption to
your departiaent, are made by a respmasible newspaper of this
city, Otat it is not your duty to taile cognizance of these cliiarges?
A. Excepting an investigation were ordered.




780


I. Coudd you not have sent fo~r persons to have -appeared 'before
'you? A. That is Jiut exactly what the superintendent did; tbat
is what his letter to the Mail and Express meant
Q. Could you not have subpoenaed and compelled the persons
'who made those charges to come before you? A. Suppose
Q. Never mind any suppositikn. A. We have to rely on the
superintendent.
Q. Couldn't the cmisoners tesles have issued subpoUas an~d, under the law, comtpelled the attendsnee? A.. No;
under~ thes law the police commilssioers can. not through subpoena cmpel a wItntess to aprbeoeour court; that was
tried; we hda case two or tbre weeks agoa
By Senator O'Oonnort
4Is theit the law? A. We can not make them c~et 0oeiamiIoner McLean can tell you all about that.
Q.You mean witnesses ontside of the police department? A.
Wv! Si-P.
Q. You have the power. to compel the attendance of members
of yo~ur own body? A. Oh, yes; but he is talking about the Mail
and -Expries people coming there; we can -not compel them tD
oome; the superhitendent of the department wrote them a letter
and asked them to come and make these charges; now, I would
like to se the superintendenutls report and make that clear.
By Senator Poundi,
QWell, they didn't coue? X Go~duld't get them to coma
By Mr. G-off:QI read from section 251 of the Conmolidation Act:  noh
bowad of police shall have power to issue subpoenas attested in
flie name of its president to compel the attendance of witnesses,
uipon any proceedings authorized by its rules and 'regulations.
A. Yes, sir; but we have had a taste of it, and if you will consult Oomimissloner McLean, who 'is a lawyer -
Q. Wait, commissioner, wait; Is the-re anything in the rules
and reguil U-ons of the police department tou-ching the preferring
of charges of co-rruption. and bribery against the department or
any of its members; is there anything In the rules or regulatioms
toueling the preferring of charges of corruption and bribery
against -the de~~rment or any of its Members? A. That, sir, is
condizot unbecoming an officer, and Iif there was any knowledge
of that fact, why the charge would be made instsantly.




yT.
Q. Suppose a person wto fs not aan- iote  mates sntcdi *ttpublicly? A. Why don't they go to police headquarters?
Q. Suppose a person  who is not an officer makes such chargeg
publicly that you, the police commssioners, are accepting bribes
for the protection of crime in this city, have yon nothing in yoi
rules and regulations looking to the investigation of thos
charges? A. We could do simply just ecatBy what was done iw
that ease; the attention of the board mast have been called ti
some of those statements; they passed the resLtions which you
have read; they referred t to the tra intendent to investigate
and report, and the superintendent shows by that letter whole
you read that he did eomm  niete with the Mail and Express
people, and asked them to come forward a d substantiate th
statements which they had made; now, if you will go further anl
take the reports of the superintendent of police, you will find thai
his report back to the board of police eommissioners cares with
it a copy of his letter to the Mal and Express; now, whatever
that says I will stand by.
Q. What I want the committee of Senators to  nderstan.d Is
this: Is this the fact- that when serious charges of corruption
and bribery are made by any person against the departtment a
a departmet, does the departmet, represented by its eommissioners, take no. action whatever upon those charges except refer
it to the superintendent? A. We would not make a cmplaint
on a newspaper report
Senator O'comor. —The ottutee coantee them to tfe aubpoe
naing of witnesses for the purpose of enforcing the rles of their
own department  Now, have the any asuch.re awthorizng them
to investigate charges made ainst themselves?
Mr. Goff. —Bt they had a rule sauthorizing them to suppress
any ea:h place. Of course, the aommissioners re nt expected
to go ott themselves; they have to do it to0ugh te executive
of the depairtmeit                                       I
Senator O'Connor.- Is there any lihit umder the lmw  reatmng
the department limiting the power of t  e osminlionera to make
rules.
Mr. Goff.- No limitn
Witne- - Yes, si.
Senator O(Y  nor.-The e        e tm r ety e a re of that Ind
wouid be tihe men chewged with corroept   investigating them.
selves, and I con sa here hat they wold not investigate it with
that power.
Mr.   off.-That rney,e, bat at the rame tine, Snutor, f
appeasr that here is a deprtment and by the rles tfey ihpose
the repo    litj bi   up  the superitendea  to see tht the oap




ao-s  do tfeir duty. Eaeh captain is ciarged in hts own preeint with the iuppr+sfson of these gamblge-houses. Now, here
owe publie   rges &at gmblning hoes   aiig  h e p ted, and  et
fing them oit by nane aand adress, and the police commissioners
di nothing whatever; do not oid ay tael; put no captain on
tial; ut no riwnte       it m t ia; t  dirt the superitendett t imese;     xd    e wites a letter t  the wla er paeferin
tHes                we id v  lie to have ar prfti; Mes
ate fe                                  1
Mr. 3oL-       ba    l tabi  e is Oto~ fit, agd tea  x,Vdble esbjeot  tie:"         A t wzote a letter to th& news
|gbpef. He made is report back to the boerd of poices which
nas not beei proda*d,
Senetor O'Cnno.- It aeaae tthie eommissiora dd n oth
tag except to rely on the report of "the supeAintendent
Mr. Goff.- That is it.
senator O'OomarO. — c N   a, qnetimt  is:     ti: ha ave
Obne anyfti g minre?
Mr. NicoL-I-  b  nexai ttba Iff et
enator OOaioM.-Yes.
4r. Goff.-hile 2 of the e           fpae   WAaa    be the;    Sclrf <M   O e       to permtoe  in, t ff e  te  Yor
er the laws of the sate, the mordti nees f ihe ety of New
&     and ordinances Mt tte board of eatIh, ixa fthe rtnts and
g: tesdftio  of the bard of poice, and abate 1  ga  huses,
motis aad premses and place kept or used for lewd or obscene
wpoAes, aaiS ns    r,    aud plaes kept or used for the sale
iSttery tirkets or policy or for aay oter unawiful purpose,
wtmatcaever^" Now, theme is the poit. bid the board of police
eommnisinuers ivestigate the supirmendMt t, witeter or not he
faiied to eoform to Rale 26, these charges hlaving been alleged
ag   t him
Witne.- Sopp      g th-at the superintendente report showed
tha there w so tth in the icarges?
ei atow  OOolmo. — r-  he poit is this: Thoy dcrge that these
e existei  It was the drty of the superineniLdnt to repress
he, and he makes a report exonerating them.
Witnes~p. — Suppose he makes a repto  froim  te Mail and
Expres people themselves? 
Mr. Nieolk —I as that the wnmittee vle the eprt red to:them
Senatwo OCWmanar. —ae you the 'eport hiere, Mr. Goff?
Wr. Go.ff ---o, sr; I hawv not
Seator (YOomi. —I see  what Mr. Gotff   after. Tese
arpges wer    made agiinst this person himsef.    he board,




hnstead as tahrg aay aetie measnre       asees, referred it
to,ithe inriminated person and relied on his say so.
The Witiess. —   e siperimendea.t, under the laws of *the
State of New York, is an eertve offloer of the police depA;tmet, and that is the proper chaaiMel farough which it should go.
We could put him upon trial if we had proper grounds for it,
but we must have proper proof.'
Senratr Bradley. — Oan nt you oonpel him to furnish th1
proof?
W   ntes. —'Not at alL  Hie ends bak his report to the board
of police coummssioners. Now, fidt report may show that the
Mail and Express people themselves, in every one of the plaees
specified thxee Is a report as to tihat partcular plae, showing
what it is, where it is and what there is of it
Q. Do you man to say that SuperinteAdenft Mnrra reported
hat tihe plaoes tart I have read jwt now were not gamlig
places; will you take the responiility of sayin, g ths? A. Offe
monmen-t-                      | 
Q. Wir you laie the rsponsibiiity of saflhg that? A. T'at
would be a fooishi hrng fr me to say; let the repot speak i
itself.
Q. You have just sated to    eimatoa r O Oomnor that in tie
superintende.-sa repo' f t wift be found ftBas every heuse — a
you put yar one lger on ti other- tht every house will be
referred to and          ey plaee noted; now, do you wih
to state that Superiredenlt Murrais eporreferred to eay
house that I hale rea  to yt?
Mr. Nt    L — whf  I want to aMy is th  I d1 not t nk he
ought to endeavor to prowe by this wi-t'ea the ateints oSA
superintendent's report, inasmuch as all the reort a oe
counsel and to the committee.
Senator O'Onoor.-He    n te    e a  witnes' nmeo'.u
Witne.- I went to hep yoo      I     caa f M  a  - N -
By Seaabtr O(Coeonw
Q. Now, do you undersaiad te q ueskn? rA    I tn    I 
my answer to that twild be suihnl   thy isa i tt the re
passed by ihe board of poiiee commissioners was passed in ofnected with; the partimaar places wh   you a have mitied
then the report from the superintendenit back to the board of
police Xoiiao'Ds would necesarily report upon eadh ate q
those ptiCultr laesa, showing whethr or not there were
any trlis in that statement.
Q. Will you taie the responif flity now of stating that imb
was ever a report made to the 'Bd of poiice emmisio,




784
hatt Jobm DIaly's home was wrt a gambling-honse; as I have
read over that list? A. Will I make that stateamn t?
Q. That any of the dozen places belonging to Al Adams were
not gambling-houses? A. It may have stated it was losed or
had been a gamnbling-house, or something of that kind.
Q. That is, closed while the report was being made? A. Oh,
no; it would not state that fact; tat would be a perfect
absurdity; the report wll speak for itseI I haverat aiy doubt
that that will explai it clearly.
By SensAtor O0oWor
Q. Your board has power, hto it rm^, $^ invesigate ay ohirges
made by any person against any member of the force excepting
the commissioners tLheselves and to compel the attendance of
witnesses to establish them? A. I think you strike the point
there as matter of law, when you state that the subpoenas which
are served by thc polioe department can really compel only those
witnesses that are connected with the department to attend; in
relation to our rules and regulations, you have struck it there;
we have had very few cases, not very many of them, since I
have been in the departbnent-I don't suppose there have ever
been more than three or for oases where the parties refused to
come forward; I remember one case where we went to the
supreme court, and got a subpoena whtn they refused to come
up; we had a cae withi for or fiAe weeks, aad Canmissioner
MoCf     was s  trugiq r   bid t      a Irite  for u, and
he dut suroeems
By Mr. Goft:
Q. Will you sww tsad Jeo    Dal  g  fa           t  pe
lo-day? A. Qo, sir; I dwn't kow whet it ia
Q. Ihe most ntorious?mblig-hoxie in New York, and you
a police commissJ mr, don't know where it is? A. I k]ow there
is a man named Daly; I have never been in a gambling-ose; it
is up arwmd Th;rtietb street
Q. Wil you testify that there ae any gambling-houes to-day
doing bmuheas in New York? A. I have no knowledge of any.
Q I am talking of your knowledge as a commissioner of police?
A. I have no official knowledge.
Q. Have you   quired? A. As to the feet of their being i
existence?
Q. Yes. A The general rules of the department provideQ. Have you ianqired? A. I ca notb say that I have lately.
Q. When was the last time? A. I think that I have within a
year or two; I think I have heard the superintendent or others
In the department saing that there were rumr of a gambling



785K


house being o~peup4aOA d tespinten~dent has WoImeUa
there were none o~pen in the city of New York.
Q. YOU read the newspapers frequently in the Miy c9 N~ew
York? A. Yes, sir.
Q-' DO you remuember about reading of this bookkeepqr down
here who lost $O,1000 hI a poliky-sho about a year ago, this old
bookkeeper in a paper ho-use? A. I tlank that was a good many
years ago.
Q.No, a year ago. A. Weren't there some arrests made in
connection With it?
Q.Yes; he is in State prison now. A. I remember there was
a case; what the amount 'is T don't know; the parties were
arrested.
Q. Sand you never inquired about the gambling-houses. or
polic-shop~s where 'he lost his employer's money, did you? A.
Now, that y'ou may clearly understand it -
Q.I think I understn  It A. The reports necessarily come
through the superintendent unless the attention of the oommlssioners Is specially directed in some way or other, and then we
w'oil-d ask the superintendent for A report on those factsa
Q. So that, if I understand it, if matters come to your knowledge as a commissioner of police which you know to be violations
of the law, and neglect on. the part of the dep~artment, you do not
tw-e any cogukzance of it, milese It is brought to youor attention
Officially? A. That is the customary way.
Q. 'That is the way thie board of police connssoers dmoe its
wwok? A.. If we had anl knowledge, we would direel: thji superIntendesit to 4n~~aeIt, and report back to us.
Q.lDd you evra 4irect the sluperiKtemndet to investigate agything~ wihn the past two, ye~s  A. &WeritendientB~na
By Mr. MMiol:
Q.He investigates,,a gqad le! isef dont-t he; the superintendent is pretty, astive himself' isn't he? A. I thought so.
Ry Mr. Gott
Q.Wasn't thO ffuperitendent so active in his investig~ation
that you and your beloved fellow Tainmany commissioners, Sheehan and Mfartii4 called the superintendent to task?
Senator aitr.- I object to that; as a member of 'the oommittee.
Mr. NioolL ---I object to it.
Senator OOoomnor.- I would avoid any question with irritat~i,
in it. "Wheat we want is the fast.
IL       99




780


3, Gtff-I a(s. fbfle the word beloved out, fEieo     ^ 
[enat.r O'onnor.- The eounsel will avoid any iniis' rah~ls hi
lie question. We only want the fact.
Q. I ask if you and your fellow cma      oiers, whoam  gFa
have called ahtnany oommissioners, and whom you have staecd
you alwa    yvoted with-  A. State the rest of it
Q. Because you believed them to lie rigt? A. I never knew
them to do anything wrong.
Q. Did you and these gentlemien wfl   aI   SeIperitteident
Byrnes to account by reason of the publications in the nespapers as to friction between Superintendent Byrnes and ihe
commisimnots; will you swear you didn't? A.ll hia        to
account?                                              I
Q. Yes; o    him to acoount  A. In what way?t 
Q. Call hi  to accoant? A. Personally or oolleetlv*ft 
Q. The three of you, individually?  A. No, sir; I auswer pod,
tIvely, no, sir.
Q. That is as true as everything else you have testifted tot 
Iverything else I have said
Q. That you three conisiers      did not call Superintendei
Byrnes ftito your rotm, and take hi to task, and ask hr   to 8 -press the newsipaper prblicafions, cai'ta-iing tbfe poilie eOtmtssioners? X. There is not a word of truth in i. 
Q. Not a wotrd of tr1h in ht? A. e, sir; not a ilt
Q. How many trte da  o     S, ea ae, a  pe   in a year?  1 I
should s    rey ner n ar, in that neighborhood; Setween
/ abont            Oa,^   ai,^.
Q     at W is  e aoise adopted-?  A. Sir?
Q. What is the comrse of proedure aidopted by the eomanmi
sioners with regard to pmooeedings ait fhese trias?  A. Tk
eamnsinsioners rotate in fher trials, one siting one week, and
ire oiter the oftier week, eeepting the eaes of superoa
anid fn tfose ses   1l o  tfhe e         s-..        -.i
By Senar   Bradleyt
Q. What de you mean b              oUr e E E. NMI 
cavteins, sergeai 
Q. A   oveeer  e  afeof ' em tir                  e 4  st
By Mr. Goaf
Q. In eases whee all fe c     s      d      e t    at
trial, what rile is adopt4ed? A. Wihen the cases are tried thi




787 


sfenograper tes dowin hie testimony In shorffnnd; hle then
puts it in typewritten form, and forwards it when completed to
the trial commissioner in a large envelope, indorsing upon the
back of it the name of the officer against whom the complaint
was imade, the nature of the complaint, the date of it, and the
eomplainant; at the bottom of that is a place upon which the
judgment is to be mnrked; now, in coses or ordinary violation of
the rules such as being off relieving point, or off post, unless too
long a time, tde trial comnrissioner after those papers come back
from the stenograpth, places upon the back what in his judgamnt worid seem to be a proper penalty in the case; by oustom,
tie boa   has very largely adopted about the same pematy for
1tle same charaCter of offense, and the trial eommissiioer takes
that before the full board of police eormnlissioners, and calls the
aftentIon of the boa-d to the fact that tlere are 50, 75, 100 or
125 cases, whatever there might be; thait there is marked upon
those cases no penalty in excess of a certain number of days; for
all the more serious, caees, such as sleeping upon post, or intoxiaMtion, or assault upon citizens, after te trial commissioner
receiies back the testimony he sends it aoasund to the differe.t
comAnefoers to read the testimony, and when they have x  D
oapkele   it and oea it back to the tr ia conmmissioner hbe takes
it agaln beiore the board of aonmisioners and call their are
tia to ftfat taot, add then they dscss it and agree upon a
tb teat;   the general system..:.pose an o^teer c amxit an at which is not c   a vi4o
It a   f the ri'e!  1ft.e depEaanaent, Iet also a violation of the::a.1i. law of the   ate   s   fthe d eparm ent take any oogr:    oie      t s t I aEt: t f fi - te law of the State? A That
l ': ie:sa   y be a prt of the oarge, si, f that w: true
"        hOose m       ofIer ts aa d  f.ngommmn a feloniu
easU nP     a  Jmn d A 6t    sL
~dnt &?         A..__ Tas f     ind oim gofitm and mrolem the pealty  that the
%..bke r wi   - assault upoa rx aned so  h do the aofm i  oni   taie
tiy pnPs t asee      wht e er or no that officer siO-1 be punt
sihed by thie aorts of the tate? A. The citizen himself has a
igbt to go there.
Q I am Ps    y a&sking you if the department —  Ai. No, si
he cormlssiooners do not do that; it very frequently happens that




prior to a trial, after a comnplaint is6 made to police headquarter%
or during the trial, the citizen himself goes before the grand jury
and has the officer indicted; and pretty generally in such cases
as that, If the commissgoners go on with the tdlal at all, they genertaly hiol back the papers until they see what disposition has
been made of the case by the court's.
Q.I will take the case of Sergeant Me~arteny, for instance;
do you r'emember that ease? A. No, sir.; I don't remember it
Q~ I will try and cal it to your attention; do you reemer the
came of. the police sergeant who kicked the teeth dowu the man's
ipckln Jefferson MePolice Mart just ashewas being led
away ftua th desk? A. How boug ago was that?
Q. A fe    otsaoA. I thinik I reemersm            a ame s
Q. Yea presided at thz tia with your fellow commhsskners?
QYou read over the testimony, anyway? A. If I were present at aboadmeetinigat whichaction was takenlIwas part of it
QYoa signed the judgment? A. Yes, sir.
Q.Do you reember that Judge Voorhees, who was onse g
flkw-oomunis~4oner of yoersN was a witness on, that trial agadns
ibe sergent? A. 1 guess very likely that Is so to someexnt
testifying txQ some facts that came before 'him In the court.
Q. Yes. A. That 'is true.
Q. I hand you an envelope froma the board of pcaice the officWl
envelope, and ask you what the letters I'D, C," under the word
Judgnment"0 means? A. Dismissed complaint, sir.
Q. You recognize that as the official envelope of the pollee
board? A. Ykes;- sent by OMe police clerk; I will, explain how that
comes here.
Q. Tha* is -al right; we had It by the courtesy ot the chief
clerk. A. I say I will explain how that come to be marked that
way.
Q. 'This oharge is under the title of " eu4bmt unbecoming an
officer?" A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the specification, Isr. " Did, oaue the airest of one
David Bryant, dild violently assault hin4! did falsely accuse him of
aadt"etc.? A. That is the charge.
Q. The opecifloartion? A. Yes, sit.
Q. You had the com~plainant Bryant be"b~ ymOur  A. The paper
would show that fa-et., it -it is trume.
Q, (Bmdlng.) "David Bryant being dulyr sworn, dorlii depose
and say, as follows: I1 am a car driver oui the (Oeulrl Cross-Town
Llail'wad Company, FterteentL street divison, aadd reside at 7-56
6reewidi street In the cityi of New York; on the 19th. of Juue-,




789


189, at about 2; orth'5 p. mL; I was on my ear at the corer of
Fourteenth street and Ninth avenue going east; a man walked it
front of my car, took the horses by the head and swung them
aroumd, pualing the reins out of my hand; I got off the car,
picked up the reine ad then asked the man why he done it; at
this he struok me  id I stmck him back, and then jumped on my
car; the man followed me on the ar and pulled me off; I again
got Om the car and he again pulled me off; he then got on the car
and said, "I place you under arrest;" I then tied the reins and
stood m thie street, the man remaining on the plafform of the ear'
Offie  Heary E. Hpp     ninth precinct, came up, and I askei
him to take the man off the car;" he replied, "He is my aspereL
offioe; "the man f     ae got off the oar and sid to Officer Henry
E Hoa.pper 'This man is uder arrest; I want you to take him i'm
I the  asked the man for his aUtiity, and he made no repl$
Ofie  Henry. Hopper aaid to him: 'Why don't you show high
yow afitAoity?' he ten put his hand I his pocket and pulle4
out his "pgeastfs badge; at this Officer Hopper took me by the
ara, wihe the sergeatL Frank McCamtney, ran at me and stmrck
me in the eye with his fist; I was taken t the ninth precinct
stationihouse by Officer Hopper and from  there to Jeffersol
Maiket, where I was cQbarged wit assault and put under $300
bail; after being placed under bail by. t ie police mastrate, the
said sergeat Frank McOartney, said to me: 'You are mu
priisoni;' and in a rougii maamer, grabbed me by the left arm; I
aid to the sergean: 'I would like to see a friend;' he replied:
'You will see no friend here;' taking me toward the prismo pen';
I had walked about four or five steps outside the court rouI
when he struck me in the face; I stocped to save myself and he
again strlck me; in the meantime tee or four officers got hold
of me, and while I was in a stooping position the said sergeant,
Frank McOartney, kicked me in the mouth; I boke away from
the offiaers and rai into the oomrt before the justice and said:
'Judge, lock at the way I am;' sowiag my face, the way it waq
bleeding; the judge then called the sergeant back and asked him
wh3 he had assaulted me, and the segeant denied having done
so; I was then directed by the judge to make a complaint against
the sergeant;" on behalf of this complaiinant a nimber of witnesses were examined, were they not? A. The record will show.
Q. Judge Voorhees, who presided at the bench and before
whom he was brought bleeding, was examined on behalf of the
complainant, was he not? A. The record will show that.
Q. Ad Judge Voorhees testified that the sergeant had blood
spattered all over his face from the bloody face or the prisoner;
do yRn remember that? A. I doa't recollect the particular tstim.ony.




790


(q 3nd in the fe of that testimony the board of pollee dismied tfe oomplaiint? A. If that is the mark on the back of it
T. ou have seen the mak? A. You have read the whole
of it
Q( I have simply read the complaint? A Are you going to
e   t V  an officer on the complaiot?
(Q Ofitbde of the complainant, didn't all the witnesses who
cappeared for the defendant belong to the police department?
A. I doant know, sir; I don't remember.
Q. Isn't that the usual course of trial at police headquarters?
A. Oh, no; gracous, no; we have sometimes 30 or 40 citizens
there in one case; perhaps I am a little at random; we tried one
case a little while ago where we were 12 days, sitting at it from
morriag to night; there is Mr. Grant over there, who conducts a
gd many trials; he will no doubt enlighten you on that.
Wouild you like to have Mr. Grant testify on that? A I
wouldn't object at all, sar.
Mr. Goff.-As the commissioner has been kind enough to call
tH'e atten tio  of the committee to the presence of a well-known
member of the bar in this city, Mr. Grant, saying that he kt.ows
mMne about polHee trials than possibly any other man in New
York oatifle of the commissioners -
Senator WUnor.- Pardon me, Mr. Goff. What do you want
us to imply by this? That they are corrupt in their decisions, by
not eonvicting on the conflictig testimony?
N. GofT. —Not in that term; not that they would give a deisimn ft  a mnmey consideration.
Senator Oonnor.- But that tlby stand by their officers 
Er. Gft- We will get to that evidence.
Q. I haZd you the record of the police department concerning
te reord of Francis McOarten the sergeant referred to, and, by
co t fit        that he has been on trial 12 times for various;f% dxd< c Seznes; if,u can count Ip the number in coluns?
[~ ^:a:'    eed  3fIn 1883:,  sir; is that a sergeant; oh, you
hay tit mfi~ ea ere.
Q.:ea; I have just coiated up the number; yes, I Thave just
counted ap te im3; that would be abot 12 times? A. Yes,
sir; naee a year.
Q. Here is a case against James Law, of the fifth precinct,
charged with the violation of the rules; I merely want you tp
identify tie envelope. (Pper handed the witnessO
Mr. Nioll.- WVhat is the date of that?
Thie Withess.- November 24, 1888.
iQ Judgment was rendered there January 25, 1892, commUle
idonr? A. The date of the complaiint is November 2, 1888.




791


I Q Just wait a   ni m nt; there is the judgment paper handed:witness  A. I tlink the tria there must be wrong.
Q   ate is the date of the trial, December 2, 1891; in fii
ecase, in the case o J s Uiw, the complaint was by o'e of Xi
superior officers, that he bedelothi0o   was in a filthy  t
bind his body was uclen and for tht offense be was di
fram the department t A  The record skows thait does it t
Q. Yes; there is tie reord; he was dimissed te deptu-  t
on that complaint (paper shwn    itness)  A. Yes; he had a
eyV bad record.
Senator O   onor.<.-For what?
Mr. Goff —For fitvtig h   bied a  his l ody in an uudaee
potridtit.! The Witness-That is a ve  serio  thig, to brye an p,
ifficer sleep in a bed wiU onf         ^     t ifftliftO  n^
hat oase, Mr. Goff?.-..
r.. '. —    Yes.
The Witness- - f seems to have ieen a bad o.fce.;
tihe QaunseL- if  had 29 chtges aast h                 rS enator OC!:nnor-.-I sanpe,  fr. Got,  a as   i flQi
eeto imply te    olagers ae   d ar disted  i  l.
etIx        e onx seriousg c g  aaid ti1&M  ibtI idi?te 
Senator O'COo  r.-How can the eommnilte idetmnie that
withoiitl t.ving the case before it?
Mr. (    oft. — W  ge t f    e get ha  e  al record, and we wfl
ssuame here, if the honorable Senators please, that the judgmenb
>f the commissionem is final. In thts ce tfe judgment is that
e should be dmisissed tie fe b 'tme his bed clothing  Ws
ieleani.;           i
Witness.- Was he reins? fiaed
Senator OaCntor.-          et  of le p       ep         t
final is?
Mr. Goff.- -   is as to its daisipli a 
i Mr. NkeoI- Before th:e aommitie ofmi  ftmbne  a  Popew 
ment  tpen tle subject must they noiw have all ei"e eden
befbe ~them, and epeciaflly the evtdenee withi egard tor te
e d of the officer?
Senator O'Ctmnnu.-I assmine so, but you can not put all the
eidence in at onoe
Mr. NicolL.-This qestion makes t appear thuat te eoer;   das disissed becanBa S person was umoleaan, ib itl also appets
aat he had 29 charges of miseondueti  against him. Now, it
nigut have been a very proper exercise ofauntirity on the part
bf the commssioners to have dismissed himn  ider the nireo k




192


eafnces, atfolugl Ift would have been an Imprpeir eaercsse ol
anthority on th eir part had they  dismissed him in the firsa
instance on such a charge.
Senator O'Connor.-So far as it appea, thre is nohing in
either of those cases where we could pith into the action of the
police department unless it is conneectd with someethig else.
Mr. Niolel.- How is tha?
Senatr O'Connor.-There is nothing tn those two cases as'
they stand now that would wamrant us 'i comfing to any adverse
opinin against the police dpartment unless some thing further
is shown.                                               )
Mr. Nitoll.- T-e  I mwre to strike it odt now.
Senator O'onoi- 014 so ~We waat all tlhe 11     we ca ge.
BBy Mr. Gofft
Q. In this cae Martin Rannify, twenty-ft f    pi ee1i nc, the
eomplaint is, conduct unbecoming an officer in that he assailted
a citizen with his baton amd kicked him and used vile lamgnage
Ito him, et.; the oonpntiinant said, in his complaint:  On Octo.
ber 2gth, compiatanmt was standing art th'e comer of Sixty-first
street and Tenth aveaue; officer cane up and said, whatw are ou
tramps doing here insulting respectable people; taid then, witiout provoeation, struck me several violent blows on the head
with the baton, and kicked me; I complained to the stationhouse
and was asked to come later aad identify the officer; I passed
Haannify on the street end looked for his nnnibe, teon Ihe drew
his club and atempted to s.trie me, saying, you soa of a b -
get off tihis avee;, I rm  to my oi   and tbe offeier fotwed me
to wift.an  25 teet o itt'iE offier  was fox nd gailty o Jfa.
charge, was he  ot? (Paapiu 'W      tim) i'         woA 1di
seem to imply, Mr. Go, Miar.i tht was  uet  e flay not Bhst
been omid guoty s to t en n re -Aa*
Q. But he was tomd gsft? A.       e,  sr.
Q. uity on the speKfx -a-  i            he O rtay -now  heen.mnd     o gFit4y @n smeie om - pStof.It  Mt spesfiC tc.
Q. Wei he 1 wais uty?                      t ~h  C
Q And iTs penalty was tw  d    te s             f, l.mti
bQ.e  m   ra&ed 
a  10-W MW    ss        it   d* ea i           l
Q     w niO  ish is the twodays' py?  x A. Sx azsa ai 
hdng; it Ii ned      In t1-i faamwint paper.
Q. ix doHa;rs and 1ifty-two e? A. Yea sif
Q. That was ie e   tent of the pen;alty?;. ykes, sr
Q. These two eases that I have just called your atteXntin it




793i
one man for having his'bedclothing unclean and his body unclean,
was dismissed the force? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The other man, on complaint of a citizen, whom he kicked
and threatened with a club, and used abusive language torwardts,
was fined the sum of six dollars and fifty-seven cents? A. If
you willI read the entire testimony in both. eases -
Q You foumndhi    guilty on it? A. Yes; guilty of some particular portion.
Q. Your 'judgment says "Guilty"? A. Yes,; if he had been
actually gudity of a serious charge like -that he would have been
given a heavier penalty.
Q.What do you mean by that-.- A. Is theme more th-an one
specifcation charged?
Q. No; there is only one specification; now, you found him
guilty on one specification, did you not? A. That would seem
to imply it
Q.And having found this officer guilty of cormiffing an
offense of such a grave character up-on a citizen, you fined him
to the extent of sIX dollars and fifty-seven cents? A. That seems
to be It
Q. Did you not know that that act was a felony? A. I can not
tell unless I read the evidence in the case.
Q. You know that you found 'him guilty of striking a citizen~
with a club? A. It was, not proven in -the complaint.
Q. If it were not proven in -the complaint how, did you comle,_ as
a commissioner, under your oath of office, to pronounce this man
guilty? A. Well, I am trying to explain that.
Q. flow did you, come to do It? A. Because the testimony in
the case would 'nstify such a judgment-, that is the judgmnent of
th-e entire board of counmissioners.
Q. Precisely; that is just the point A. Three years ago.
Q. Xnd ths man, having been fo-und guilty of an offense which
umder the law of this State is a felony, and liable to imprisonment
for, five \yea~rs in the State's prison, you uined him si# diollszm
aud fifty-seven cents? A. I simply say that I stand by the
record; right by the testuimony; whatever It shorws in this case I
am willing to stand by.
Q. Here is the record. A. Put the entire case in. evidente.
Mr. Goff.-We will,2 if you want it? A. That i all; you  ol
seem to make it a very serious thing frona a statement 'that
would not look so serious if the testimony were read.
Q. Did you, or the board of which you' a-re a, member, tak-e any
steps after declaring and adjudging this officer guilty of a'n
offense which, under the laws of this State, was a State priSan


L


100




o"aen.; did you take any steps to see -th- t ie was prosecute.
f  that offense? A. No, sir.
Q. And you were satisfied wi* imposing the penalty of a jugment of six dollars and some eai on him? A. Imposing the
penlty stated by law.
Q. So thit a policeman can have the prvilege of clubbing a
itaen for six dollars? A. Wherever Wev find tht it it  a serious
(den e of elubing a citizen we break the office, in every such
cfie.
Senator O'Oor.nor. — he evidence in a case of that kind might
d.iose a very slight offense, and the rules of the departnent
rftght find him guilty and punish accordingly.
Mr. Goft.-But the complaint of itself must be true or false
Senator O'Connor, —Far instance, a man is indicted for felo
eous asault, In the first degree, by the grand jury, yet you
can comvit him of assault and battery. The offense charged is
really imnder the charge of conduct unbecoming an officer Now,
w:dile the speification of the comtplaint might be a serious one,,o~ 'msfton, in thiMs case, where you charge that teeth Wje
keked dowi tre oonauianamt's thiroat yet the evidemwge migM dclose that that was very much exaggf a. eter L
Mr. Goff-In that oed tihUe 
cqmplainamts and Junge Voorliees misIt hase t       if
fu!y.
Senatow-  Coanor. — There are five members of this committee
wiio are lawyers apd who have had a great deal of experience
in the trial of crimina ca^e, and they know very well that a
complaint under the charge of conduct unbecoming aa officer,
although it might be very aggravated in the complaint, yet when
you come to get all fhe evidence in it might have justified the
c0missioners in making the disposition they did
Mr. Goft —It may be proper to state the object we have in
introducing this line of testimony. These are only a few cases
taken before the coamissioner here. They go to show that in
so far as the memrs of the police force of the city of New Yorlk
are cooened they are, pratically speaking, relieved from the
oeratioqn of the law of the State; in other words, that a policeman hn the oity of New York may commit offences against cttz.s aand, practicaly spetaking, always escape the pFrithment
tWIt  would follow  ose offenses if ommitted by a private
citizen.
Semator (oCkmnnr.- Why does not the district attorney punis
them?
Mr. NiWec — I   ia hardly permit a statement of that sort
without answering it, inasmuch as I convicted and sent to Stte's




prison mysef'a large number of police offioers during the time I
was district attorney, and I think Mr. Goff did the same dur
the time he was assistat.a The functions of the police gomnisioners are purely disciplinary, The functions of the dje
attorney's office are to enforce the penalty, and quite a lae
number of police officers have been sent to State prison dUfi:
the last ten years for offenses committed against ciidzeus.
Mr. Go.- Tere has been one onviction in the city o0 Iew
York od a poemnman within the past quarter of a century of the
crime of oppression. Just think of it! One! of the crime of
oppression in this city. And it is an open and notorious fact
that the crime has been committed over and over again.  Ihe
conviction was such an astonishment to everybody that it fatened itself in my memory a few months ago.
Mr. Nicoll-But during my term there were cnvictions of
aiaault of variouas kinds; for assault with intent to commit rape
and for a variety of offences; and so there was during Mr. Goff's
term. I have no doubt that he himslf has convioted police
officers.
M     Goff.- We do not wish to exaggerate at a41j, bi we.o
think it is proper to bring to the attention of this committee, teas
fact, which is bome out by the records as far as our search; has
esabled us. I am not blaming the police commnunisioers for ano
infraction of dity as far as they are concerned. I.say, th'ey m,
act as they think paoper; but what I mean to say is that, 'i
effect, from whatever cause, that the unifoirA police of the city of
New York, are, pratioally speaking, exempted fixrm the opei*
tions o/ the law of the land.
Mr, Neil.- Eve" tody knows that that is not t.
Mr Goff- Tfien we will prove it  I sirmply say tha t he rft
of the trials of the cases will sbow that not one per cei  of ie
polieemen wUh have been tdied at bheailquai.ter as ard   anvited
for acts that woIld constite a feloeous offence, had ever been
prcsecuted in the courts of this State' or anry legl pIoeedpg
ever been taken against them.
Senator O'Connor.- Whose fault was tatT
M. Gff.- I do not know.
Sinator O'COonmr.- May it be chasged to te aeofissoiers
of police?
Mr. Goff.-It is samething growig out of the sysgtesu, bIt 
am not directly charging this to Mr. McO(ave or any ofier iftl,
vidual coimnaissioner.
Senator O'Conor.- I presume their power to act against the
police is to have dise'ipline. Now, is it any part of the duties of
the poli}e osmmiaoners to go before the district attorney?




T96
UMr. Gotf.- I do DAetclfaim that it ia I simply, wanst to bring
the condition of affairs to your attention, that you may devise
some remedy. It is a stirtling thing thait 4,000 me in the city
of New York, are, praoticufly speaking, exempted from the, penales of a viol to  &the law of Vie land.
Se~nator O'Connor.- It is a very umrfortirna-te condition if it
exigt&.
Mr. Nikoll- You. live yoursel f, Senator O'Connoir, within three
or four howns ride of thm city of New York~. Senator Bradley
lives in Brooklyn. You all live within a short di-stance from
-iere. You are all just asfaia, byv reason of your services
fri thew legislature and from the different measures yoa have
txv pass upon affeeting the city of New Yorrk, as either Mr. Goff or
myself, cA re-gards its conditionm Therefo-re, you know tht4 ttUt1~
statemo-r.t oi& his is perfectly absurd, and you know tU at yo a t ha v 
gurt noioAng ir the world to do except to open the ciirn'thals Pfj,
nasi o! this cemmilf anid ftmid there the record of convicei.-o-n aftp;oo-nvictknr of police o~n-ern for vanioris offences against the law.
I am astonished beyond. r'ensu-re that seriously, before you know
die contm-iy -so well, thiot yo-ur own omnsei should urgge such a
prloposition. If you had -never heojr2 of the city of New York:
before, if -this was your first visit, if this was the first time that
you ever had any occalsion to deal with its -admin-Istration, I could
well understand counsel makding,mch a deliverance. But In
view of your extraodinary and exact knowledge of our conaditimi
It seems to me sunprising thait he should- deliver himself of suchb
astatement as thait.
Senator O'Conmmoe.- We will take the evidence just the game.
Mr.. Nicoll.-Of course, anything we can get, even my papiefm
Wh-en cen we take an adjournment?
Senator O'Connor.- We will aidjoarn now if you wisbMr. Nicoll.~- I wish before you adjourn, Mr. Chlkairmaa, that,
you would Impress upon those present the necessity of holding
these sessions with exwutaaess and precision; that we meet ex..
actly at half-past 10 and sit until 1; and that then we take
our lumdh and come book at 2 sharp.
Senator Bradley.-Mr. Nicoll, would you try by to-morrow
morni~ng and produce 10 convictions of policemen that have been
made wiflin the last 10 years in the city of New York.
Mr. Nicoll.- Why, yes. The first man, almost that I co-nviebed
was Sergeant Crovwle~y.
Mr. Goff-And the only other one Is the only one you eyea
convicted,~ and he was pardoned.
Mr. Nlcoal.-Hle was not Pardoned um*l this year. Now deft
not the cooimittee -feed the duty Imposed upon them and tm




797


orm-el to send for the frenIs and relaiives of thiis mnssing witness, Granger, and examine tiem as to his whereabouts. Now,
this man, as I uuderstid from some of the newspapers, is in
Jersey.  It appears that he has in town a father and other
relatives and friends. Mr. Jerome, who at one time was his
counsel, knows who these people aie  Why shouldnt we find
this out? 
Seator O'Connor. —If he is not inltfroud  his entire testimony will be stricken from the record.
Mr. Nicoll —Why isn't he produced? Why not subpoena thoe
people who know where he is? I ask the committee to diret
ooansel to subpoena those persons for tomorrow moirmng.
Mr. Goo.-We have done everything in our power and we
hiave in the name of this committee invoked the great and powerftl police department of this city to produce thi man.  As
Senator Bradley said, if they wanted to produce him they oould
do so i 24 hours
Senator Bradley.-Did Superintendent Byrnes send out 
generail alaim last night? 
Mr. Goff.-That is Mr. McClave's testimony.
Senator Bradley.- I was waiting very anxiously to hear about
Shat, that there was a general alarm sent out
Senator O'Onnor. —(To Sergeant-at-Arms Scramnm.) You employ all the necessary assistants to arrest this man if you can
find him in the State of New York.
Mr. NicoU. —TLere is a man named Mniry who came here
to-day and said he was aounmd Harlem afi er he left Mr. Gof(s
house that night. I suggest that you send for Muiry and let
Mulry tell where he saw him around Harlem.
Senartor O'Connor.- The sergeatxat-rms will eert everj
power he has to get this witness, Graniger, here
Mr. Nioll.- Will the sergeaait-ai-anr   be instiructe to send
for Ganger's faither?
Senator O'Cnor.- -Have Mr. Granger bre to-morrow mxora
ing, if you eaan get him here.
The 0ommttee adjourned to Thursday May 24^ 1894, at I;0
Proeeeangs of e.  -'ihit   meeting of e   fNfeei, Tni fi
cty of New Yoa, Thursday, May 24, 1894, at 10:30, m.:
Present.-All of tie commitee, ex.cept Senators Lexow ad
Saxton.
Ooumsel on boftt sides present
Obharman O(Oonior..-Mr Goff, are you      to proceed- - It
Mr Nicoll here? 
Mf. NiooL- Yes; I am hem




I


Mr. Go   -Mr. Ch.lnnain eand gentlemen', there Is a witmems
here this momning who has very imptat engage       is Of a
business character, which reqnire abtdentim, andt Iu  lidket,pt him on at once.
Chairman O'Ooninor.- Who is the witness?
Mr. Goff.- Mr. Webb is tile witnesa
Chairman O'Cornor.- We reeognize tii    of No
business engagement, and we have no oec        to tt  btlif
sworn. Take the stand, MT. Webb.
Henry WIterWebb, leing duty      a w *' twfie  t Mewsa
Direct eamination by Mr. Goff'
Q You are an ofeer of the New Yark (eatcal ti  h woad '
pany? A. I am.
Q. What is your desigsna ti? A. I am tir   vielpesidwd
At the New Yok; entrafl Itread Compay.
Q. Your office and residence is in the cty of New Yot  L
My office is; I reside at Scarborough, on the EHudsona  te.. In the early paltt of this year, 1894,;id you give moey >
tpy person, who dcaimed that he was an ap   4t for appitf:
smet on thie police force? A. No, sr.
QDid you gve a check? A. Ns *      fr  t sB a qaeslo  df
time that I am speakhIg f — 4    ue not 4'f'tg fi
tLe.
QO I will let you siate ian yQ r own way the transaction? A
I tlnk it was Abo a a year  o fiatt I was inerested in a y
man, who was an appieant, for the appoirtmient on the poliL
forme, and for whom I ende;vored to seeire an a^poinment, mad
he camne to me o %Say aid asked me to loam Sim 130k W  Mch
I did.
Q. Did yoa wae Of ledge of his             Wmhtion, 1roae h  mkel
7' for t' toan of $8'? A. I aS       tio*! ifo e pid
Q. Yes A. I did.
( Can you stte how loag it was befor yo. loa1     hIn t he
money    A. I could not say ac   atfbt I aeold think Af
ws probably two or three or fo? Imon4w.
Q. 'a14l yw  ign any reeommenidnion for him as wae of his
sonsons IA-  I fthink I bave
Q What did he say to you when he asked you for the loan of
the money; give us the conversation, as nearly as you can recilect it? A  We had no conversation at all; he simply told me
tiat he needed the money, and asked me if I wonld loan It tD hlki
O Dihe     i d you w]   t he lneeded it for?  A No.,  Was there anthing in the trsatn fl         gave you tl




iIAWO 


undertand what he needed it for   A. No sf nofing that hi
iaid at alL
Q Were yo not a    ae t the time that he asked yofu to loan
him the moniy, tht 1he loan was for the purpose of procuring an
appointment upon the police force?
Mr. iolll. — I objeot to that; we have on record what he said
to him.
Ctmirmian O'Comnmo.- The question involves persomnl knrpi.
edge; he can answer that
A. No, sir; I did not know anything about it at s  I j a i,; You did not know anyginB abot it? A. No, *l
Q. W1!i you give the namee f the man to whom yoi Iamed
&   -! zney  A. Patri&k  hay.
QI Do you know if Patrick bSha was appointed after you gafe
the   oney?  A. Yes, ir.
Q How shortly aftr? A. That I could ILnt Isa; the fist t
lkoew of it aftwe i waw  i tiri tfee or four week8, pioba1,;'.~    I came to town.
Q Who inf     ed ou of the toa tt t he ws aspoined t A.
Sme of my famny met hin on the street
+ In um? form t A. Yes, sir.
Did yen o.e r s  Potrek har sine? A. Yes, t, May I ask y   i'Ie o     a    u       r the money? A  e ple
nw about fourr mr     after that   or 150, and i
tha I  t h~i k  e pai me enother e;o  I am not certain bet "e
IfWe ha paid iaill.
Q Do yo    know what preinact he is attached to? A. Mb
I    n is on Forty-  nd stbect, near t-th avenue.
" iamt Is his beat  A. Where he is usually found.
Forty-secd sLareot near Fift axenue? A. Yes, i.
Q On the w#e  or the oeat i&e of    avenue do you knowlt
lI siohd judge it was ea the east side; my children meet bhm;
at is where I hear of his being.
Q. When he was pe   4 you the sEa= of twha t jrou bal
mentioned, dcM  he saj  aytbieg saf t   i    he soemred FI
emppoitmient? A. 21
Q. When he a$plOi d to yJoa fr the lonm, did he say anythng
aboi the dii  lty about   g     la ft  poioe force? AL No; he
s.id that he H  bWeen a lon t   t-    d he reigned his posi
tin wimh the OeItei ralroad, aidhe s      been ouil of eamployment asd waiting.
Q Caat h, he resid    it for t he papos  an with the. dlpe
of g       an the poioe tore?;      he h-ad 
nfidergo some ednouacao   or.ex-aaxiuatrt onr. t  thit lha
'en going oU.




800


Q. When he askel you for the loan of $300, did he say auSyths
In form or in snbsbawe, fthia t& e money wiala faelitee  is
appointnent? A. No, ir'.
Q. Nothing at all? A. N   sir; siml thi hbe was in great
need of It
*oss-exaiinftion by Mr. Niooll:
~  I understood that the mi   had resfgred frin MO paosrsMn
on the railroad? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long had he been out of a  o yia t on  e  /iad?
A. I shwulld think three orT four m1oths.
Q. And during that time ad he any other owucrsrmi to pr
kaowledg? A. No, sir.. None at all? A. No, sir. Was he a maried maa? A No, sir.
Q. Had be any othfe meam of a livelihood durxg t" Inter,
betwenl his retirement from the raroad, and his          t
on the force? A. No, sir; I would like to add, if the committee
will allow, that the reason I loaned this min the money was, that
we knew all about his family, his mnoer and others, that were
dependent on im, and I knew prCcally that the man was in
need, and in want probaMy; I donTmb kiw   yft    abut hib
ocupato'
Q( That is what I want to bring out; was there aot some
one dependent on him for suppot, fter bhi retirement from te
railroad, and before his appointment?  A. I so understood
Q. From whom did you umderstand that? A. His moter.. And tha was th reason th a yo loa ned him At   monejy
A. Because my wife and aanily were titereFed in his famnIy; his
mother; they wre poor people.
Q. Did you write a strong indlosemean   'o~ tho or e oomiiiainers? A. I wrote to one of tiem.
Q Wteh oue? A. Mr. MeCOave.
Q Did you set out his quaifieations? A IX 4o not -emeaber
whab I said about him; I simply urged  ery strongly that he
shoild get ae appoint-ent, if it could be obtained for himQ. Had you known Mr. McOave for scmue time? A. Yes,;-;
for five years, off and on.
Q. Have you made otier recommendations in other case to
Ms. Mclavwe? A. I do not think I ever mde a renommendation
before; tht is, I nee wrote a letter before; I may have signed
ameone's application, when It was brought in the,office, but I
think this was the omiy eoasionl tiha I ever wrote nm a letter.




/


Q. Was it on dIe e    si   of Mr. mh y  At you wroft to.BStatmaeekr Mc(lave? AL Yes, sir.
Q. Be toi you tat be was the proper e     mier to a
to? A. O're moment; I tbii  he asked ime if I aew an of i e
oommssioners, and I told him I knew Ckl      e(Mn r  M.e,
and he asked me if I would writie him a keter.
Q. hat was before tffie fsasatimof   of $300? A. Yes, air; some
time befre.
Mr. Gaf- That is all, Mr. Webb
John W. McClave, resumed the stand, for firtbhe  direct eo mBy31r. Goft!! 'i ', 
Q DQ you reue     r Se. a'_i'   I     tlle p'i      m
na=xe of whom has jnst been mentioned by Mr. Webb?.,
sir; I do not rewoillet it
Q. Do you remember receiving a letter from Mr. Webb? 4 I
do not partieuarly reollet thit; I think I have received a
lettr Ote from Mr. Waiter Webb; is it not —as well as Qe
froin Mr. Seward Webb, but I do not remember the man, and I
do not remember partcyularly the leer; if I received it, I have it
Q. In satting your word or your valuation, how did you
separate the value of the reaty, from the value of your ersnalty? A. I tMink I estimated the lumber iiterest at ASIft
$300,000, did I not?
Q. The interest outside of the realty?  A. Yes; the -luAier
interest
Q. I mean outside of the real estate on whih the lumber yard
is situmted, it"? A Ye, sir; that akesl in the building and:ie
madioeriy, and the siOek; I made up my crude oa'hauiops from
that; ( i Tink I carry upon tat abot $ 220,000 or $230,000
Q. You made that ealouation exclusive of your indebtednes t
A. Yes, sir; it was about that figure that I estimated.
Q. Have you paid any personal tax in this city? A. No, ir;
I have not this year; not since the fire; I paid every year right
almng up to the fire.
Q. You paid every year up to the fire? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much did you pay? A. I do not recollect; &ey
essd      ea a eertain amount; whatever it was I paid it. Did you ever take an affidavit in reference to your personJ
property bore the tax commissiones? A. I think I (id hbe
Itely, the ftit time, when I asked tat I Te relieved from it.
Ii.       101




802
Q. Wten was thlt T A Witbn two or three montl'a
9    ^ Y  ied that you be reiteved fo  the personal tax t A.
(;. 1ol wbat Croun? A. tUn the ground, owing to the
fa      y  r    d i  the general iguation of my busaness, and
the I0r6tgtged  it btednesm, wbit it had beeode necessary to.u. np(UP   my property, and my business indebtedness, that I
Ft nt tinI wu n   fi r    tler tire law to pay any personal
C You have said that you are as rich now, and no richer, than
wtien you went iato the pdlie dpartment? A. Yes, sir., If you paid a personal tax when you went into the police:departme4e, why Is f yo aAk to be releved now, when you are
aw rdh ow as you were then? A. I say that I have been paying
a pertonal tax right along; let me explain to you one thing; the
parteular property that you have refeence toQ. No; I object to that; how imtny years befoe the fire did
you *y a personal tax? A I timk I paid every year for a
numme of years.
Q. Wfill yu state iae anmt? A. I do not remember the
amout
Q Can you state tke a   t  money tt you paid? A. No,
Sir; hut you will -imeiiI -
O. Xevmer min tiAt A. I think I ean explain it to you, if you
wiU tlow mae
Q Can you state te ye    ia which you made this affdavit for
relie from the personal taxc t A. It k I nmade an affidavit two
oi t*bee moiathe age
s Isiat the oy a  ffidai t t yat  haemade? A Yes, sir;
I 4 et recollet m kig any    e   1affdavit;  I do not reuember
Wa oether.
~Q Anl tha affidavit was in substane, that you were not posed of per.onal property of any amnomtt over and albo.e your
liabiliSi? A Over and above the indebtedness that I had
imieased  dmtrin the past year or two.
Q. So now, the fact is, that you have been losing money? A.
q^, no; not neeessaifly tht; bat you naderstand that there is
~O$0080 that you are putting in here, that is facts as real estate.
Q. I am stating tiat you said that you valued your pesonalty
at abt t  M0,000o, over and above your reaty. A. No, I said my
business iterests, we   takes all my personal propert down
theret
i    s PIi yuQ if on youeluded the real estate uponi wik-ch tXhb
lr-p     u bA~sl  ad W- --          XI Ok._ W.-.~~~~ ~.-1. 




803. Ten   youI ma4d  a mistaB e? ~ Ye, sir; I ptq afxes 
";as~~tf ~O in (tbat
Q. Ywt were mistaken te,,in ttat stateiet? A. Y es sir.
Q4 Wbat was the value of yo      perdsal propety over &an.ve tb real estat that ou owed t A. I can    ot recall pareticulrly about my tok of lumlber, n my maohminery and m3
bhorse  a d my trucks and wagsma; I woaud not undertake to
atate that
Q, Let us see if jou atve that copy of the lette - have you
tbe *qit th t you put in yesterday, from the cosmiieoial gency?
A. I did not put it in; you had that.
I ad the letter that was put in   A. I have not got it; I
have ao seen it.
Q From your letter which the conmericial agency put inrf the mercauile agency, over your own signature yesterday,
ou Jtated that your house and furniture, 156 West Seventy'Veeoud street cot you more than $100,000; you mpaid how much
for tie iouse? A. Originally I paid, I tiink, $46,00O; it 1td
tfcreased in value and sold for $;58i#
Q. You state in your letter here that it oqst y.u a e},F 
sa, I find that the house and furniture, 156 W t Seveniy-se
street, cas me mwe than $1000,00  t   aectual cost instead 'a
$85,W00, so that w duld leave $6,000 the value of your finaiture?
A. Where is stt stemen      ten years ago?
Q. That is daod December I5, 1890; now, that would leave
A56,000 represeting your uitaie, on yaour own states nt, fi
house osting so much. A. Yes, air; decoratons and 
Q Then you say your machinery shou-d be 
5,0000; thai is correct, is it not?  LI A. e; I   w..
fhat stateneut says% is cwrreot
Q. And your lumber shed ahmuld be.4,O   to   ' I tea  fi
i&. Wiat des ta     Ow in tse a e?
Q And ywr mercaidwe a         i should be tW40Q inaAsad
r   40,0060, Pd yr bills reeiable and cash and stock oertifoates on gI     a i03d, a31  d O00,:isea  of $0)(; now, yw
state tbas yr  have $8,00   d liablifie  amd that would leav
according to yoir own  omaputatio' in A1:90, U197,000 of pE
sonal prertgr? A. I do not know; whatever the sttemene
Q Well, that is easet,    7,OOd            prpetprty; IWy;
nu you stabe to is          iw a: pe enal tpo you p.
In the year 18901  A. I do not reaiembe; all I kow is, tbat
whatever they amt nm  a notice -f for -r I pai4d  I do net st
ler anmtyag a     the auomt
Q. I am avm  n     aou a t  1te am I  L I d  t  et
aboTat the awman  ait at all.




804


r. But you remember that you did pay, in 1890, a personal
tac, do youn not? A. I think I paid right along; they sent me a
notice every year, for something or other, and I paid it.
Q. Who is Charlie Grant, as he has been cualed here on the
witness stand? A. He is a clerk, secretary to myself, and been
in fhe department about 16 years.
Q. Por whom was he secretary before he was secretary for
you? AL To Police Oomnrlsisoer Mason, six years there.
Q. How many years has he been secretary to you and (ommissioner Mason, inlusive? A'. He was there, I think, all
throiugh Mr. Mason's term of six years, and when I went there,
I formd him there, and I have been there nine years.
Q. So taht is aibort fifteen years? A. Yes; he has been there
fifteen w sixteen yeas
Q What has been his salary? A. Seventeen hundred and
fifty dolar -.                                 -    '
Q. And he is there every day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Attending to his bsiness? A. Yes, sir. [
Q. As your secretary? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Aid 'he has no other busimess so far as you tnow? A, Yo
other business that I know of.
Q. Hte is attentive to his diaties? AL. Yes sir.
Q There eve   day an  a   iTful sere  y to y? A. Ye",
sir; every day.               \                 i
Q Idi you ever hear 1hs name mentioned in conntection with.tsetmnents to tel poliae forwe? 'A. No, ir.
r Or the preferrments? Al No, dr; I never have heard it at
Q, Yot have never heard bhisr  ne bi that conaectlo? A. No,
sir
Q Is there a clerk in the police department namned Stone?
iAL Thie force clerk, one who keeps the force book; othwise
clleed te appointment clerk? A. No; I think he has nothing
to do w&ih tha — yes, I gueess he does; I tfhik he has te civil
service ippers.
Q. Did you ever make -any appomaitment on his recommenda
fim? A. No, sir.
Q. Or on his request? A. Never; I do not think I have spoken
to him 20 times, since I have been in the department.
Q. You have presented some papers here, in connecton with
the aqppomtment of Oapbain Price, and read the ianes of a
immuber of firms aad peiism  recommending his appoinutment? A.
I iave oft preesented te papers, bat I rsead the nanes at your
requet.                 I
C'airman O'Connor.- Ge-n(emei, Mr. Ratine is hSere from




noce'ter, otr aiWier  ana ndnaigu- 1 in thBe cIty this m1ninng,
and is the man to whom Mr. Granger referred as having paid
$300; he is lw  vpresnt, and desires to go on the stan d th4i
morning aid B   sworn in that connection. Mr. icoll, do ou
propat     nifo:e   to, sike fr n  the record the testimoiy of Mir.
Camnger, fi  ase ie is nt pro&duced?
Mr. Nicoll. —Periaips at some stage of the proeedings I shall,
after I get thwuglh with my examination of the witnesses.
Chmiairn O(aOonow.- If you puiue mthat curse, any evidence
am 1 tlie matteraify of hiss statement will not be admitted.
Mr. Niooll.-I will wait umtil we see whether he is produced,
ib.e witnmes mty be ptoduced as Senator Lexow remarked.
Ohairman O'Connor.- You can not have both the remedy and
-Wi  efiene. Yom can not      trike the tesationy fam fe
re, on aieooab  of his nun-prodmetio, and fthen go on with
ev lneice inl refseaoe to it.
fr. Nieol — I mnake no motion at the present time.
-haaminan 0O'  itr.- Then I do not see hoW Mr. Baiaes can
be sworn, unltl that queston is disposed of.
Mr,  ietl. —  I lhItb  hie commiltee tQ1 cld hear his estmny;
lie Uhas t   asa.ed bfore this mami   eel aAd ft seemn to ime
oly f*r thet 1e shiolid be allowed bf be heard.
or. Oo. —  I hiave no objctnioi.:-l-rinam   O'COo:o.-You have no obijeiion, Mr. Goff, to
lbahng Mr. Raines sworn?
IMr. Goff. —o; tie oanly point is fhast we will nob go into
taing teBao      to show that Mr. Granger has testified to
tiugs that are not true in many partulars, if his testimony is
to be strCea itAO   the reeord; if it remnias on lte record, tihen
lthe osher side wln be at libierty to prove as many instaces of
uitruatihfulness as they see fft, but if it is sticken from the
record -
Mr. Niooll.-I umderstand that   I do not make any motloi
now. Senaitor Lexowr suggestfed thit I should p'ostpone m,
motion, urmtl 9ee later pedrod, and I postponed it
C:iairmau O   mn  or.-Mr. PEaine  is here nDow, and would like
to be sworn.
Mr. GOff.-I thin:e '.ad.beMie be sworn.
rANisman    ' YOonits. —lfr. iaime, you coin be sworn, if yoTu
wish.
Jomn Eaines, bie'g duny sworn, testiied as followei
Dir   ext iMion by Mr. Gof:
4iwopiaw Oowiir.-x.- W   wifl examine Mr. Raines; will yo
Mr. GoiTft




806
Mr. oiff.-I lse no quesl  os fe asE
hamairman O'Ommor.-Wel, I will examine him
By (hairman O'(onnor:
Whee do you reside? A. Oalusrdaigro, New Y'PrI
4  What is your business? A. Insu.rw.
Q. At ome time, were you a memnber of Oongres in  a_ '
trict? A. Yes; I had that honor.
Q. For liow many years? A. Fow years
Were yo     a also a Se  aSeiator? A. Yes, sir4
Q. You are a pronmnient Bepureblican, in yoer part of ihe SAWe?
a  Yee, sir.
Q. You take a  i, i.  lebin ioti      d, o ~ui yt,? A Y~m
OIh SoBuewibait
By Senaxtor (1nbor
Q. You have been a Memlir *o W-emb1y at?    2., sa
By Chairmm   (YOomaor:
Q   o you know Gideoa Gpager?     i I do nmo
Q. ID you know Palioe Oommiss   r McC     i?  r I do nOt
Chmarmai O'0aiocm.- Who is atat  mMan ta  lbe ieanee?
Mr. Nicoll.-I was just lookiE g at tw   e      ey  X was
goakg t       giv te or        OiAe  i *  at.oxi  t. fi^.  is
1he tesm'ony,                                    -
"By Mr. Gofft
4   Do you reme  te -  e. ppobte     e a         ni y  mhe 
ot EOdward fdDom)off, wiO w  fareo    of the Eie dooks? A.
I do not think he was appodnted, 1e was nmb the last time I
eard from Mhm.
Q. Is there aiyating about thias aplioatioei for apptodintamt?
A. In mnme mattes, you mean?
"Q. Yes. A   Yes, sir; Uxntted States  eia r Ihaim's son,
Oharlie ILA mn of Oaam   gaagta  wa tie backer for him through
Jodnm PaEes, wo was Oongresma, who was a t one time
member of the Semate; I hve seire     letters from them about
him, and hie also failed to pass the dotor, and foxally did."
Chairman O'COoanor.- Do you kmow Edward Mo)onaed - you
can go on and make your sittemient about tat miatter.
Mr. Nicoll.-I have not read all of it, peiraps I had better
read it all. The substance of it was, without taking Tu the ime
of the committee, that he reoeived a draft from Oatandaigua.
Mr. Goff.- Yes, bat that has nothing to do with Mr. Raines.
Ohamiraim  (Oonnor.-H e f  ted ted  t MP, Raines pai4d ls
money, did he not?         -.




807


'leaaeaa  l^    0      S u      tor aeppiitment
Ifc.^Sii^.jb  ti4(ibefore me, ad I will rad
j4 Q-n  -fmi~ l^ -"'-^&
*a;.. M   S;ef hBer~i: t    ~Yj* * 1* at4  t kime or in
mealoaint? 4.      Mi Mri. W aid      hiia application
ke wu n       p   N to is;e           man who
*de the aplivation for Mr  I a;, b* a      paton
did uot pan.
"Q Was there any uney accom paaing tht appfica-an? 
'Q And-he did nei pass? A. No, siN he did not pa0 on 1that
&-Did he make any other agplpca t 4 Y b, sir,
'Q  Wa thre any money accopatg a  '( seconad ap<caAp? A. Thee waa a draft sent fra OMrnadag'ua fovr $50..~ Whoo   rthe dat 1    (: D. aT, 
i; '. 1Us gitlemlai you have s-pokp  otf?  Ye ri a
*Q. What was.t to be used far? AL The dotors, as I
'mndwstoed it
Q. Wht boeame of that dr4t — when you e  dootor, as I
mIU  he poe e         Xgo? A Y es, a.
"Q%  Wat lbeae i tfha dratf? A. I doat know what
aq.     the ltNw?1 A. IJ the leit e
^. Wh td ^     do iLit? A I mt ft, I tlk      a mn
br fte,   o- amy.. Was the draft mnae payable to yo? A. Yea, ai; the
dt t was mad payable to me.
eQ Wha~t dM you send it to Kelly for? 'A Kelly was uldei.
ta~d tp be tie gio-beweea ki the einetementh Ae.mlny d'o;i
'Q. Bmwen hh  ad tbe man who made  e appofti    "
A. Beret we.  tad te alderm  (tr  o   ers, or woAever
it is whbo nmAkB tb awpptoxitent
' Q. W~t wW tbe    ta   t    yon ever biva wlflr Eelly?
A           Ovtw*   I e'r}I balb with Kely.
%. Hi diA y^ sekf lifw t*  lie wUJ the gobetween? A.
"'. Y. samt a il a draft made pyabe to your arde on te
stat oa ti   tfor tat be ws a fie ga Seftwee? A. Nop  I
Zmet-,  aaid s Ae; to biiL
'EQ. A.<   b4etewe of atppointent? A. Yeu, er."
i nterif i~ l         krwt 3te er testify to a perseid
Inte     ti 3i. f    t




808
The Withnes —  es, fie iid; in tt'e Farnwffi miate. r.
Mr. 20i.oi.- In anotlher matter, was it? 
The Witness.- Yes; in another matter; the.Fi> wo 4 matte.
Ch0airman O'COonor. —He spolke of having a peroonal int'vlw
with Mr. IRteahs '  the Morton HolI e  I
Mr. NicLt- Yes, I believe  ldid.
Mr. Gof.-.I do not think hat he ever add that tie wituea
paid him any. m.one.
Mr. NiJeplI.- On page 1212, is the following:
"Q. I c4l yorue attton'  to I9 wworth, $3360; what does tiat
item rier to? A. Tat.s forr an appoiintment
Q. Do you know ayfnig aboat that appoiltnient? A. Yes,
sir.
"Q. State to he oot   what yu know? AL That was don
through  onigrSn     in, of C    adag
"Q. To whtmn was the tmney paid  A. Direct to Mr. Mclave,
I umdersttod.
"Q. Prom   hom did yom uderstand that? A. Congresmans
'onnox.- Tat is the point! 
Mr. coi.- I obje-t. Is it possible that the committee will
tenbe ' to a thing like thka?X
ijhairm'aa O'Caonor.-Yes, it is possible.. Now, Mr. Ralues, you
may make your statement?
Al In reg'wd t c hte MIcMDoald cae,, I pow the fatlher of this
MciDoaid, who ii es near Oanaaandigua; Mr. Lapha  at one time.cmue to me and asked me to wrte a letter, reommnjendiiu
M    1Domaid for appointment as a poIicemin; I did write a letter,
aad gave it to Mr. tLapam, rennmmen.ding Mr. McDoaaJd, and
ri,  is all I iiow a bout thie lMonald ease; ft regad to the! /'aaorri matter, I can not ima.gie who Mr. Farmworth is; I
"o not think I know him, or ever heard of him, and as regards to
what is said at thie Morton Hoeuse, I never met Mr. Granger, at
'thie Morin Hlouse; I do n-ot know Mr. Granger, tihoaugh I know his
-fatheir amd mother; I never had any converatiio  with Mr.
(xanger in regard to the appointment of any policemen whatever; I never told him that I had given Mr. McClave any sum of
money for any appointment, and I never did give Mr. McClave any
sum of,money, and I do nigt know Mr. McClave; I do not know
thatt I ever spoke to '., aI thoug it is posible that I ny have
at some. time been introiduued to him, and that is all I know
abo.t this matter.
Q. Did not Mr. G1rager live. at Oa  tdaigu a? A. His family
'dM, and when he was a bIoy he esided there - when he wasl a
young man.




so09


Q.Mr. Grianger, then, Is fotmilioar with, Canandaigua peopleI
A.. Ye;, sir; he lived there when he was a boy.
Se 0atr  'Gnnor.-4iave you any qustons to ask?
By Mr. Gorff:i
Q.Did yoni see purblished In til-e m~ortIing newSPOVpeS whiat PurP~OI'ted to be a copy of a letter from Mr. Lap~hani in coumea~Lon
with the a~ppoiutinent of Mr. McDonald? A. I dfi; and- ails in a
kfoai n~ewspaper.
Q. o yo'u know anytiiing about those letters? A. I know
dsPan~y th.t Mr. LainStated to mie that he had certain letters,
w~eh he handed to a. reporter, ami I presume tose axe the
lettei%,.
Q. In ref-enence to the McDonald app'olabtnent,? A. Yes, Sir;
in reference to thie McDonald appAn-bnentQ. You say that yon, db -not know Mr. Granger? A. I don't
kno-w him at all.
Q. Youwould nottow    'hAmnif you sawbhim? A. I would not
knorwhim if Isaw hinm.
Q. You have been, as you state., a Congrman, and largely
interested in public affairs, in this Atate? A. Somewhat so.
Q.And neces~qrily. you meet a greait number of mmn? A. Ye;,
Sir.
Q. Yeu meet them, wherever youa go.? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you ever at the 3fo~ton 1Tousa on any of your visits to
Wew York? A. I think I have been. at the Mfortan House, as iiear
as I can remembher, njot over twice, sinice 1887 or 1888; on two
oft-lol"9s only that I can remember; I mray have been there
oftener, burt T only remember those two occaisi-ons.
Q. Do yoni know a man. by the name of IRankina? A. A-t
CaAandai1gua?
Q.Yes? A. Yes, sir.
Q. DMd you ever s~peak to Mr. R~ankin about some appoinhnent
on the poIi'ce force? A. No slir.
Q.No coversartion between you on that? A. No~, sir; not at
all.
Q. Neither lately or r~motely? A. Not at any time.
Q. You would not, I presue, any more than any o'ther puiblic
man, pretend to reTmember all the persons to whom you, have been
introduced? A. ('4 no; certalinly not; I only wish1 I could.
Q. It is said that -Mr. Lincoln, was the only man who had that
faculty. You may 'have met Mr. Gijanger, without being able to
ida —ntify him morw? A. No, I think I- would have known. Mr. Gran~ger, on account of my knorwing his father and mother so well, if
I head ever had any acqiuamntance with him.i 
L.        102




810


Q. Did yox ever he=r ithat Mr. Granger was married into the
family of Police Cooniaionae McCave? A. I heard that he
nailried a relative - a daughter, I think, of Mr. McClave.
Q. When did yoa hear that? A I thdnk it was about two
years ago. 
Q. You heard it abut the time of your interest in McDonld,
did you not? A. No; I do not thin  I did.
Q. Have you any positive reoolection on that subject? A_ I
think I heard that in reference to Mr. Granger before tLe
McDonald matter ever came uF
Q. And of course, you, as all public men, must necessarily dao
recommend people to office? A. I have done so sometimes.
Q. And you have recommended men for appointmient on the
police force of New York? A. I presume I have written; I may
have written three or four letters for different parties.
Q. Residents mostly of Cnandsigua, or in that vicinity? A.
Yes; residents in that vicinity.
Q. You say that you do not remember Farnsworth? A. I do
not remember him or anything about him, or anything about the
name, there was a family of Farnsworth liinng near Oanandaigua,
but I do not remenmber about tlhi man at all.
Q. It frequently happens, that you write letters of recommendation for person, on the solicibation of friends, even though
you do not know the persos? A. I eoetimes do
Q. And you may have interested yorelf in Farnswort's
appointment or aplieation, witIhoir knowing the man individually? A I have no recolection of it in amsL way or shape
whatever.
Q. Do you recollect inteesting youself in the appoitment of
a man by name of Tate, from Cabianiigma? A. Y, sir; I got
hiMm apponted.
Q. Was that aiout     time of the McDonaid episode? A. No;
that was away back in 1881 or 1882.
Q. Who appointed him for you? A. I think my old friend,
Police Commissioner French; that is the only man that I have
ever bad appointed directly or indirectly, so far as I know.
Q. Of oourse your letters always carry weight? A. They will
chow,.if there are any on file. '
By Mr. NicoU:
Q. I undersood yo f Say, t     you never wrote Mr. MdElave
any letter? A. I have never written any personal letter to Mr.
MoClve; tt I have written, it has been to thie polioe coamia
sioieis; I do "nt koww. Mr. Mlvea. -- -- -




'811


mfr. NO.E- t l~snot been claimed that- yu ever wrote to Mr.
MIcClave.
Charmmi O'C~xmme~- That is alL
John McC1&ve resumed te_W swk4 foxr fuifer direct e. zi
nation.-                   _
By Mr. Goff:
I was speakding to you abo~if the recamntendaticons of apflan Pr~ae ftr ag~pointment, and you said that you made an
abstmatf orr a ody of the papers; when did you make thiat
abstract or copy? A. At thetimeuf the appointment; Ihave
the leftto dl' In an envelope, and I will be very much pleased
to giveWOMr to yen.
Q.2)k  "  make an ab~xti~t In relation to the Appointment
of otherc4.Ins9? A. Afllof them; andlIwill be pleased to give
them to youi.
Q. You stated tbiat It was your rule to requ!re ap-plioants for
mointo, receive lndorsememts or mecommendationis from
citzens? A.. The rules?
Q.. You -said that it was youT rule; I do not ispeak about t1re
rules of Chie depar*neat -A. The wa~yI think I ex~plained that to
you was, that the applicantis came in persomi as a rule, to the
oo011numiioner, with a letter of introduction from somebody, who
was supposdd to bilave knocwn barasking for the privilege iot
rnk"g "I _tpleafilon f or app inteneut, and I think I explained
-to you fke whxole case of proced~ure after tht; whatever that
s~tatment is%, I stand by it.
Q. Was there any compc~titor for the place that Captain Price
was promoted to? A.. Yes; I think the list of eliggible men was
sent to us by thc civil service hoard.
Q. Do not the police commissioners first detvermine by resoluflen the nmnbecr of sergeants that may ecompete for a cap taincy?
A. INo, sir; any sergeant wh~o has any soxrt of a record at a iIs at
liberty to make an appHm~tlon to the board, and I have nev-ert
known an instance where is was rejected.
Q. Ele can not make the application without first being inluided
lii re li-st, c'n he? A. The sergeanuts who wish to make an
application to enter into competitive examination for the pos,~ition of ca.p-tain, sends a written conimunication to, the board of
police nmmissioners,,asking for ti*ht pernqsskon; that is fo,,rwarded to -the chief clerk of the department., and when -that
ciomes befo- e the bourd of commissioners, there is attached to it
the record of the applicant; thie eommissioners examine that
mo~rd and if there Is nothing very bad on it, they send it down




812
to the' snperintendent, Who, under the civil service law, Is knlown
ao the immediate superior officer, and the civil, service'laws say
that the immediate superior oificer shall certify back to the
bWosrd of police commniissioners w'hetuer or not his, conduct and
efficiency is in all respects satisfactory; when that repoaft comes
back, his papers are then forwairded to the civil service board;
now, I fancy whenever there was a vacan-cy in the position of
captain, (0 or 70 or 80 sergeants went down to snake an examination, anid there were sent back to us three for each va-cancy.
Q. The point is, as yxu have stated, that when a sergeant
wishes to apply for permission to compete for a captaincy, the
board grants that permission in the first instance?   A. The
boArd  grants it, and never rejects it, unless the record would be
so bad -
Q. I simply state the fact; that the sergeants can not of themselves, and without -the knowledge or permission ot the board,
enter into competition, for the appointment to a captaincy?  A.
~Phat is right; the civil service laws would not allow it
Q. The civil service laws would not allow it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you mean to say that there is amnytlilag in tbhe civil
service that prtibbiftiq a sergeant from entei4ing into the comnpetition for promotion? A. Yes, sir; they can not do it; the civil
semrvioe law provides that the board of police commissioners must
certify trul y, and it also provides that the immediate superior
officer must certify to it.
Q. That rule applies to all promoiflons, does it? X. Yes, ir;
thfe roundarnen are not under the regular civil service rule.
Q. The roundsomen would apply to be anlade sergeanmts?  A. He
would have to go through the same proiess thatt I have stated.
Q. And the same rule applies to captains, whio seek the appodntment of inspector? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does the samme    Ie apply to inspetor~s, who seek the
appointment of superintende'nt? A. Yes, sir.
By Ohairman O'Connor:          -
Q. Who are the civil, service memtAers of tfhf podice boaod, members of the force?  A.Mr.T Lee Phillips, I think is one; he is the
secretary, axid Mr. Bouannor, thlie chIdf of the fire departments is
one, and the superintendent of the departmient was one, up to
the time that he became the present superintendent; the appointment is made by the mayor, and when he was chosen inspector,
he was made one of the civil servic examiners, and when he
became oupeerntendent, he resigned his position, and Inspector
McLaughlin became the examiner in his place, and there is one
other, I do not remember his name.




813
Q. The iree tha you have named-? A. I tin; there are
four civil service examiners.
Q. Did you ever look over the list of alppoitents made to
the fire department, and to the police deprtment? A. I never
looked over any list of appoitneiats made by the fire deparment
Q. Do you not know, as matter of fact, that the appointments
are made in the police department that the hief examiner, being
the police official you have mentioned, and the next Mr. Bonner,
the chief of the fire department, aad then Mr. Phhillip? A. And
then there is Mr. Bradley, is there not?'
Q. Mr. Beadsle   yu, mean? A. Yes, ir.
Q. He was a civil service comis  er? A. Someomne was put
in Ms plaee.
Q Butt for the appoAnitnen  to the polioe force, those appointr
menbs are placed with the cefrification of the three ind;ividiua
that yoat have mentioned, the ch&e inspetoir, and ihe chief of t*e
fire department, and the secretary of the civil seviee board? 
I had supposed the other aommini ner eaained their rartings,
and that they were then agreed upon.
Q. They may exanme the list, but the appolntmef  from 
list is given to the tBre  officis mentiomed? A. Well, I doan'
know about that
Q. Do you not klow the fact that in the a      tppoaiment of tihe
fire department,  ief Boier is the chief examiner? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you not know the fat that for the appoineent to the
police force, the cief lapec  of the police force and the chief
of the fire dep rtmietnt ivariably aree and during the past
seven years, that has been so in all appoitments to the polie
force? A. I have never in myi lfe exmed a paer; I do not
even know their method of agreement
Q. hen I wiil not ask you any furter quesitin utpox tha, as
long as you have not exaamned them; can you state who reaoom
mended *te appointment of Captain Stas? A. W il you pe1
mit me to refer to my memorma dum. 
Q. Certainly. 
Mr. Nicol-.-Have you nod been al over th, Mr. Goff?
Mr. Gof. —No, we have not
A. Ornelius' Vad Cott, Jacob M. Pattersoa, Jesse Seigan,
John W. Jacobus, Myer S. Steatns, and Mayor Paasons, of
Iochester.
Q Those       the persons who recommnded thie a ppontment of
Captai Strauss? A. I think they arm
Q. That is, what yoR have there, is a copy, you ngndi ze there
that the first three or four names, in fact, all, with the exception




814
orf i. Parscws, t IWodjesier were wpe1 known genemer u active
an peolitic ixtiua cict? A Y~ I know tat.
Q. Is it a iet tha ptlos entweed into py  r appoitmnet of
iOatain Strasms ona tie stneith of the gentleme W, whose names,ju have menitioned? A. Oaptai     tracs being uIpon the
tigible li the recommendatiomi of tbohe g emaen, bemi Repub-.
1itns, I tok it for gramted ithi ttey knew 'im to be a RepuHilQ And it was upmh the strength of tIeir reoo-nemdatio, fhat
l appointed him? A. Yes si
Q HadR you any, kawedge yourself of Oaptati Strauss, and
3id effesuy as a p  oiaee ffcer? A. He had an excellent recoead
Q Did you know kfxn Lpfiams lny? A. No; exoept thr  h his
Q. Youo neve prait to test his intelligence, for instw3 cc?
IL We judge of a ma's reword in the deparbent, by the record
af the departnent by the imiber of year of servi, and the
fdiSlonS of his reoL
Q. Do yom not know thtt  nme of yor brorter comnioss  er
aevw made an a poitiei, ea e   aft   pe  mal interviews with
lte appAicamat  or those on tIh lis? A. If an alppicant is going
to bie WiC  ed, I wtild send to him,,to cme to me, that I might
se him persoanally.
Q Did you send for W. Straus? A There is o doubt rsoaut
Q. YoQn are olear aoort that?  A. Yes, ir,.. And ys sats;fied youself as to his fitess in physical, as.VFl U  in intellectual caWcities? A. Yes ikr; he is a fine
]king imai, and a man with a considerable intelleotal eapac.
aJ, and I think fully competent for his position, and he passed
'be exmina tion all right
Q And tht apoitent             aapproed by yom inder the
Ngt       that yo    ve testified to? A. Yes, sir; upon the
geeral system of te retohnmenmtion; a member of tlhe eommission briaBg an stpoitmnet befo  the boa&rdQ. Eah member of the omngiMakn hiang his own partCelar
aptpontees to bring before the boad, the other three members
of the board vote for bim inviably do& they not? A. Not If they
do not choose too.
Q. Erave they not done so inrariably? AL In more tfian one
itnstance, where they have not agreed, they have beea tihawn
out; where the eem.is ioner makes a srggetion that he thinks
he is not a proper man, thae eonissicer witthdraw  him.
Q. Does it Q                    v o tie e  vote of the board fort te
apintment? A. N%, si; bat tiem      In scareely a  instanc
ifs     frol m Omt               I                I




815
Q Thut have Just ktated that there have rieen rejections?  A
Yes; suppoeing a commissioner states-a man comes in —I
will give you an inatarce of it fresh in my meniry, which
occurred within two weeka- one of the o  issioinere 'iretght a
mian before the board       W
Q. Which of the  anmisiloners? A. Oounissioner Maxftauu
and uqpn his being pvesented to the boaxd and any of the commissioners ptting such questions as they desired; that is the customary way, to the aprplicuiant each. of the  mssouera, and
upon Mr. McLean's own suggestion, he asked the man to turn
around and as he tunmed around, he found he was a little Nft
round shouldered, and he said that he wiitlhdrew the paper.
Q. Then it was upon the withdrawal of the oommiasiner, who
recommended this man? A. Yes, sir; but I have withdrawn
aad so have other eOMnImissionerS withdrawn them.
Q. SO, therefore, it was not a rejection on thbe pwait of the poiice
board; it was simply a withdrawal? A. Well, that is the way,
it is done.
Q. WMrIl y~mz name any one men -that yi heave ever reooin0
mended for aujoinwtmeint as capitain that was not appointed as
captain? A. I do not rememler, since I have been in the department, of any man who was recommended for appointment as
cain, by any      niBiow, burt what ha be-en appokinted.
Q. And the faxt of the matter is, thoet each commiPssoner, behin,
intresterde  in hli own appointment, voted for his brother coanmissioner's appointmeirt*, just the same? A. Yoe  may put it
that way if you -please, but I do not think there is any suih
underatanding or agreement.
Q. It is the fact; I do not care about your understanding; is
not that 1so? A. The men are brought before us; they have
passed their examination, and there are appointments that have
to be made; and the man seem-ed to be fully competent in every
particular; they are brought before the board and every comniiSO
sioner lbs the opportunity of asking such questions as he ileazes,
and then the roll is called upon the appointment.
Q. The board divides up the appointments,  dows it not?
That bhas been the custom; that was the custom when I went
Q If-there are four vacant captaincies, each commissioner gets
the appointment of one captain? A. Yes, sir; that seems to
be asbouit fair.
Q. And  when the atpponntinent comes up, the cmmissio'ners
vote for all four? A. Yes, sir; if they are all satisfawtory.
Q. But you say you don't know of any one case where a eap
tain has been proven to be unsatijsfattory? A. I have never




816
fa]rwn any since, 'beeause iose who cume up on the dvI service
list are sapposed to be the crea n o the men in the department.
Q. Have you got wift yoa the reioanmam     As of Captrin
Sehnittberger? A. No, sir; I did not appoint him.
Q. Have you got with you the reeoimendation of Captain Martens? A. Yes, sir; I have got the names; Coloel S. D. R Lruger,
(han.ncey Britton, Robert L Cutting, James L WeUls, Thomas
B Dutcher, Colonel JHai  a Jaob Hess and others
Q. The poltieal e      leeat largely predominates tbCe, does ft
not? A. I thfik afl                  r tbw gemd en are Republicans, so far
as I know.
Q. And taflt inftOmeed  yu in making &te appointment, did it
not? A. Yes, sif; I t k I sated the other dfy, all other ftings
being equl, I woil mk ti  e apeinments on those recommemi
dations.
Q. Have yao got bthe  emm     tiat ns of the appointment ot
O(ptain Stevenson? A. Na; I gness that is a good many yetas
back.
Q. bTat was in 187? A. I think I have hm, but I have not
got it wifi' me.
Q Yes, you made hiL.      I mknw Mm a!eog time before 
becme a poiee omwigns, he was a sergeanit i the precinct
where I lved; Ihave not got that wtth me,
Q Have you got the& rconmendations of Gaitai Westervelt?
A. Did I make him?. Yea   A. No, sir; I have  ot got that; how long ago was
Sa; that must have bees seven cc eight years ago, was it not; I
hltly thinr I made him
Mr. NicL.- Have you not got a lit of ail the poliee oaptais
uIxom you recommended fr prmaitioa? A. No; not here
By Mr. Goff.
Q You made bIm 3       14 s  S. W l, I keawc Westervelt
very well bfore e whe w  a    I tfhi  likely I have the saae
ite o papers foa  is de      eat that I have nxt got them
with me
Q. Did you ever hear any rumors eoncernng the appoiatment of
either of the captai   that you have tetified about? A. Never
in my life.
Q. Is this the first time that you have heard any statement in
connection with the appointment of Oaptain Stevenson, Captain
Price, OaptaWn Westevelt, Captain Matens or Captain Strass,
that their appointments were obtained by the use of money?
A. I never heard it
Q. Tds is tie first:tme? A. Tiis is the first tiaae




817
Q Either by the use of momey to yu directly or indirecly?
A. Nobody ever made any suc   tate eint to me.
Q. And this is the firt time that you have ever heard of it?
A. Yes, sir; the first time.
Q. You have been living in New York ever since you made
those appointments? A. tes, sir; I have lived here all my life.
Q. Will you give me the nuae of your oldest son, who lies in
Newark? AL ie lives ait Eewater, New      Jersey, S Wod
Melave.
Q. Does "S" staud for "Stephen?" A. Yes
Q. And he is popl iy Iknown or called "Steve" MCOlawe —  I
merely want to identfy tin? A. No-he is pretty generally
caled Stephen.
Q. What is the name of your second son? A.i  J ohn Jr., and
the next is Albert
Q.  e isyomg, ishe not?      Heis  is 22 or 2 years old; my
eldest son is about 36.
Q. Your eldest son is engaged in business with you, is be not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is your second son also engaged in the lumber business?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Ta  i either of y gr sons ever had anything to do with the
police force-? A Nolhing at all.
Q. m   yo stte if your secretry, Charie Grant, ever made
deposits for you in any of fhe aeewmt which you held, in your
priti&e capaity? A. Never fi hi life.. Or wrote oaut depoit slps? A. Never in his life.
oQ You are clear about tlat, are you? A. Yes, I am positive.
Q. Ae you also clear that you never wrote out axy deposit
slips in your business account at police headquarters?  & I do
not think I ever wrote one out in my life.
Q. Did you ever send deposits to yor buabees aeaet toom
police headquarters?  A. Never in my life.
Q. You are clear about tht? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They always went from your business office? A Yes, sr;
directly from my business office.
Q. You made deposits in your personal account from police
headquarters, did you not? A. No, sir.
Q. No, r. A. No, sir; never i my life.
Q. Did you ever seud a deposit of any lAnd to the bthe   ~iin
police headquarters?  A. Never in my life.
Q. I mean erept police funds? A. Of corse; never la' my
life any ofhers.
Q. Were the pass-books of your personal and bus ness  e t
always in your business office? A. Always.
i.       103




Q. Have 7y    refeshed Yor meoy in any wa y sMcerfwg
tb  paymet by B3arn      & Bailey's czros, of the bills, sinee you
w=e on the seid and tetified to that fet before? A. I hare
ntthot  gtu ay*       faet er about it; I think I have stated as
wet as i     pe       for me to remember all those matters
aboat   y finances; I Bznd that my head is geWtfig jetty w1l
mired   p& after being here three days on the stabd.
Q. Frpi whom did you reodee the orders for the timber or
Iaiber tiat you supplied the circus peoe? A. hey oame from
the circus people theselves.
Q. Had they an offiee in New York? ~ Whenever they came
here for the ppose of fitting up their ciras business, then tbhy
sent over to our yard for their lunmier.
Q. Was you dealings wifth. em conducted at lhe office of the
Madison Square Gden?     A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know of n   other office in this city, except the office
there? A. No, sit; I knw of none other.
Q. I hand you five dhedk books; will you please eamine the
re check books covering the years 1889 and 1890 - all the chedt
'ks 'covering the year 1890 partiecuarly; will you state,
f you can, without exaniming thse check boos, and, If
not, please exa.mine the chec  books and state if the check books 
now in court and in your hands, contain the stabs of all the
checks which were dawn by you as Wte treasurer of athe poliee
fund, on the Bak of North Aimeriea, during the year 18(  A.
So far as mg knIowiedge goes, I say yes.
Q Oam yfa t.te tMt as a fact? A. Thee ehecks are draw
1W the  tsi   ' bookeeer; the bodies are drawn and I lake
af for gmated that the eatries, every one of them are entered.
Q. Was there, during ife pero   rio mia ned any other aomont
in he Bank of North America, in which the polite department of
this city was ii aay way interested as a department than the
aecount on wl    ht ee hcks were drawn, thtA yiun id the
books m yot   hanid?  A.  te          e pain-abofd; &y wli
show the fasct; the ta& depot boos; they waoM Ie m ared
pension funl.
Q. Tea; but was thie  ay f&er aoomnu? A. here was only
ie of e afooomt
Q. Tatd yu any aioout in your individsal capacIty, eiter
prEa4e or peraol or business acoont m thle Bank If Nort
Awme, du-ritg that time? A. No, sir; I never did a doolar'
worth of business wftih them in my life.
Q. With the pemnissimo of tae aoenmtte, will you let your
bookkeepe take the stnmd a momte? A. Yes, sir; tis is the
treasm''s~ bolfkeeper's san w-o is here -is thte eldr Mr. GotU
in &lime romio-ts your farer ht e, hiarie?
Mr. Charles Gott.- No.




flk IR-lf                   asim.-iZ  i  te  f1fe8fm
Obalies IL. Gvtt, oed an bdaM, atAe 4 atet Wag d     uM
teawiies as follwsow
By Wi. o.., Q. Are y  oanc     witil w   e            aae
pAt.iee board otf   ct ry? A. I am.
en bat? t?  &IOaw        leey
Q. In ^sut c~apac? A. Abls~ f A    bookkeeperm
Q You are faanifur wimh the books in tjiA  aeparFafi   E 
83.
QO And with thie ohek beaks? A. I aa.
tI.ok at the book s b1   yqu Itere, contaning tthe rtabs df
qhiecim drawn upcm he Baak of lIorth America andl stite to wh-e
time they go to? A. I do not utierse twd thiai questieu.
Q. Well, state wSha they are? A. hiaey are tthe st bs of the
poliee peni-im  fund. 
Q. The stubs of checks drawn upomn tese police pensioe fundt
A Yes, sir.
Q All che1ks dtwa    n   t he police pinsl on fund  e  iov
by (Ihe stnbl cea tin  hi thmee b~ i? A. hey aae
Q. Theve was no o&er debcknif      was there? A. Tbhre an
other ceck-boeoks but  t on ftis baak.
Q. I mean for tlat yer and am t a   bank? A   No, Mar; na
for fit year.      i 
Q. Tumr  t to  dt e of Jaaay 23, 890, and see if the  wene
any cheaks drawn upn fat date w tkerebouts? A. There was
a chee drawn on Jamnry 21, 180.
Q. How mueh is that ihedk? AE-.og      e dollaas fmt4 
cents, a'd on January 21 al]se,, $9.8&
Q. Were there any other check drwaw on Jua~       ty $ 21f" -1
but those two checks? A. That is sal.
Q. Lolk at Janrnary 22? A. Tere is no Jauary 24d hem.
Q. Were there any chiectks rawn onm ATnvay d31?  A. ~
ing to this book, o.
Q. Look    Jtamrly 234? A. No suh date her.e
Q. Were them aAy cheeks drawn ea Jaalary 23d?   X. WF k
this book, n sir 
Q. Well, in any otez booers  A. Tbat I refuse t say, udies
tle recrI of the departmmt is hbrioght hre.
Q Hool on a mIPaeit -just wait: you dt net mean   a 
Yes; that Mi alf tat I cfan be grldaed by.
Q. Yot do rnot mean that you reftuse to answer, you, me   ta
you can not tell? A. I con not tel right here.
Q. You do not mean that you wVuld reefLse to a        mN va
question put to yu before this committee? A. I am i    Nepoi
big on my mnoa n; I am depending on the record here




820


*QYou heave stated that these chmk-books are the only die&x.
books containing stimbis ot &wlks drawn u~po that pension fiund
in the Rank of No~rth1Aerti during that period of dine? A.
That i'sso.,Q. Novo if it dees UO t a pear fromn the stu-b in that checkbook thait there were any ceAecks draw& u~pon that pension fund
en Jwianazy 23, 1.890, can it appear in amy other check-book? A.
No, sir.I
Q. So~ if there were checks drawn on Jamwary 23, 1890, they
would appear in that book? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Look again and see if there are any checks drawn on Janix.
ary 23, 1890? A. No, sir; there are not.
Q. Turn to January 24, 1890? A. There is no suwh date here
Q. No check-s drawn on that date; we woold lie tD find that
o'utt? -A. Not on this book.0
Q.Wlin aaly otthe book? A.. Now you, we %peaking of h
pension fun4, axe you?
Q. Yes. A. ThIr, Is the only book then.Q. Then- youir answer and understunding and I me~an that all
my questions have relation to the book and in reference to th~e
peesion fund. A. You say any orther books, and we have other
books.
Q. When you say it ifoes n-t appear in tbat book, it naturally,
begets a question fromt me, does it a4Tear in any other bbKo
You say now there is no other book, connected with the penisf~n
fund covering that period of time? A. No, s~r.
Q. You say there were 111 checks drawn on Jlanuary 24th on
tbat fumd? A. No, sair.
Q. Look at January 25th and see if theme were any checks
drawn on thjat date? A. Th ere was no check drawn on January
25th.
Q. Look for the balance of the month of January, usp to and
inrltmling January 21at, and see if there were any cheicim drawn?
A. I have gone right u~p to AWHlo 1t from Jasmnury to April 1et.
Q.Are the checks that yon bzve given me, of $41.50 aind $9.986,
thhe only checks there from Jainuary 21s to, April lot.? A. On
t~hat fund; yes, sir.
Q. Is it a fact that Vk7ey re the only cheoks dr'an upon the
fund from December 31, 1889, to January 21, 1890? A.. Yet% ALs
By Chiairmmi O'Connor:
Q. That is, as dinelo-4ed by these books? A. Yes, ir
By Mr. Golf:
Q. Look after April 1,1890, erd. tell the oomnnrtee wim~t fr~cks
were drawn, if nay, on the' 5th of 'A**mi 1890? A. There was a
check dilain there April 10, 1890.




821


Q. What is te mhe munt of that check? A. Twenty-five dollar_.
Q. Is there ay other cheek drawn on April 10, 1890? ".
'here is a check dawn on April 15th, $64.92.
Q. Are there any otier checks i; the month of April, 189-?
L There was a cheek April 11, 1890.  '
Q. For how mnch? A. Two hundred and sixty-two diolars
ad fifty cents.
Q. Let me see that; are there any other checks drawn durng
ae month of April, 1890, but those that have described? A.
rhere does not appear to be any other checks drawn in April,
xcept tse checks, accoiding to this book.
Q. Look at the month of September, 1890, and tell us wlht
fiecks were drawn during the month o Df Dece    r and thi
tnouan.
Ohairmaan (OComor.- Go right through the momths of Septem3tr and give the dates and amounts - comsmenoe with the first.ay of September and go right through the month?
the Witnes.- Th-ere does not appear to be any checks drawn
in Septemiber, 1890.
Q. Have you in the department the return vouchers for XO
checks that you have described? A. I think ail the checks are
'ck except four ofu the Bank of Noirth Ameri6a.
Q. What are those four? A. I!3ve them on ti pass-ookt
a1ia ran O     mr. —What is ft &at you want? Just give,he dktfI. and amou-ns of the four checks that have not been
eturme?
The Witness. — We haye the cheek x.beS; they are as folowws: No. 21,322, $535;   $28, $2; - 64, A.44; 33,168, $M9.4.
Lihat is aal the cheks tihat are stan'-di  in the Bank or Nasth
k~ieria that are not returned to heaiqua teip;    far as  e
xie departnent is onceRed the an)cout is elosed of ie
ension fund.                       i
By Ghmrmin ~O0onnoPi,. Does tIa  cheek-booke relate etcIuvy to the poicea fund?
By Mr. Ooff:.
Q Tra to the month otf Nove   lraw -I oitted to ask you for
Lat moth. A. Thre appears to be no cheeks for the month of
Zovember.
Q. Have you got the present custody of thse books, as as
emlIoye of the departimet? A. My father and myself.
Q. They are not in aotuaa ui now, are they? A. No, sir.
Q And the owart on the Baxk of Nort    Amneriea has bee
cloyed? A. It ias. 
Q. Wi you eae      tese ooks in obarge o( the sgeantt-ax-a
Cfor the cfi ttee?:   fi the committee will say so, I will.




822
Miatfmma oConnor.- We will take charge of them.
jfr. GOO.- Let the five stub chteek-books and this pamb~o1'
be n   e  Uy the stenograipher.
~teftve st~ub ecbfk~book-s are mnarked respectively A,  D~QI
and E-4 and Mhe pass-6oo  F, May 24, 1&4
Pft fkrhe finfoiration of thie committee, I deem it of interest
thiat you would state to them the Source of Income to the pension
{ltn~d. A. There io $300,000 from the excise fund; there axe~ -the
receipts from the Umcnse of steam boilers; there are the receipts
from the masked ball permits; the recelipts from. loss of time of
offkers on the fcrce by sickness and absence; the receip, ts on, percerntages of rew-ards.
Q.Expi~ainl tW?.Ua mani's gven arewar~d,iitItIs
granted to him by the board for any merito-rious conduct, 20 per
cent. of that is paid into th-e pension fund.
Q. Th-at is, if a citizen glives a present to an o~fller in rewaird
for some service, 2A0 per cent of that goes into the pension fund?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there any other source -do the fines go into it? Wl.
Yes air; the flnft and loss of time by reason of Sickness or
absence and pistol permits; thatlis all that I think of.
Q. Do you know if the ricense permits go into that fu-nd? Ai.
License of what?
Q.License of trucks and carts? A. No., sir.
Q.Is there any other source of income, that you call to mid?
A.No.; not now; I do not think- of anything else; the annuoi
report of the police pension furci is printed in the C~ity Record,
showing &cu receipts and disbursements; showing the beneficiaries and the receipts and disbursemnents; giving the details.
Q. Ex~cept for the purpose of the police pension fund or the
payment of these pension lfnnds, or the payments described by
Conniissioner Me~la-ve to policemen wvho may heave been restored
b~y the courts, are there anry other drafts inade upon the
pension fundl? A. Only in regard to litigation againat the
mien; if a man has resig-ned, and the money put Into the fund, and
he is restored, it is taken out.
Q. I have stated that, but outsde of those two sources ppTynt~ent to pensioners of their pension and the, payment to polliceIllwho may have been restored by the courts of their back-,scilary which m~ay have been transferred into the p<-nsion fund,and retransfuYrred again, are there any other draft4s made up-on
1i1ie peansion fund than for thos~e two purposes? A. Only for the
f;upplies of the pension fund, for check books and afildavits.
Q~. We have got all the -objects or purposes for whifokl check~s
irllav be drawn upon the pension fund, have we? A. That is all.
Q. Of oourse, you make a report of your disbursements f rem
that fuml an an-imal report? A.' Yes, sir; In the Clity Rlecord.




823


Q +a t^^MjB           ^te        City Record aAnd4J. b a
fri.t. Aer~e'   t o:t the pohlie department each year? A YeA,
Q. Aad everq draft t       l you ife upo-n tbe peDeii o  fd i S
any ogject whatever for eitUer of 1she two pppaese stated by y^
is stated and set forti in this report of the pohlice depaxtient
n each yew? A. Yel si.                  -   i
QO Does your system of bookkeeing enable ywu to balance  e
disbure-      as reported ia the City Becord ia the departmental w     your actual drafts from   ywr oheck-booko? A.
There wa oee year that the Oity Record made a mistake in the
publicaio  of that record.
<Q Wit! year was, tbit? A. I do not remember the yea; we
do not baance owTbooks by the City Record;
Q. Do you balance your books by your own departmenta
record? A. Oar own report, which we send to the board of
aldermen, is balaaced according to our bools.
Q. Thei the Cty Record is supposed to prin that i f    yemw
rport? A' They are supposed to.
Q. So that in each departmental report will a      a   a coet
statement of all drafts made upon the police peso fud. and the
prpose of those drafts?  A. Whether that deparia         otl resrt
was tfen fr    our report I do not know.
Q    qWbo oimpfles that portion of the departn tal report?
AL M   tiedamAter does, I think; the first:dstty clerk.
Q. Fre   wht source does he obtain wa     l owledge in order
to tabulate tha report  A. That I am  abl to say.
Q. You make ot a report as tie trearTer's bookkeeper? A.
Asj te assistant treasarer's bke sp.
Q.  mean either you or your fa&tc? A. Yes, sir; I make out
a report.
Q. To whom do you mae the rspea?      '. t fiat goes f the
btwd of pf, md the Mt          s  n     tted to the board of
alderma.
Q. ten the report tsi t i printed i the departmeal rpert
each yer is the report which you make to the board of-polde
concernng disb-e benj    fom t le pension fund?  A  I wotld
not swear to that, Iense I have never eapare d the two repoit'.
Q. Have they ever been caired? A. T as mnable to as.
Q. Who an give hior  itm    on thiit subjet A. I suppose 
Tan who ompiles thi rept.
Q. Wht does 1Mtif? AL Mr.    e,aff   I believe.
Q. He is te deprot eterk? A. FPit.depty Cle.
Q. Assuimig that Mr. Deliamte   peprees Mi report frmow iwe
written report wtc the poli ce  asaa   s boikeeper makes to




82u


thfe depri~n'en*, iti follows that be n~aaes his report from the
report made by the tre~wurer's blookkeeper? A. I fail to catch
t5kAt qestion?
Q. Poosibyly 'it I's a littke ooiiiiused; I will try and make it plain;
jumake a repowt -to the police department of disbui-senrieuts on
~epension fiuid, do you not? A.. Yet~ sir.
Q.Do you know o& any other source of informiatiou eaccept that
repor't which you make to thre department, upoun whbioh Mr. Dela.
mater can prepare his depatrtmential report? A. If he tiles our
figurin, his figures onght to be Correct.
Q.You do not kniow of any~ other source? A. He may wait
umtilI the record, comes back fxren the Olty Record, and take it as
it is coudlensed and he mnafy maike his report from that
Q. Have you. or your father ever comp~aired the diep~artmental
repoxt published in the an~nual report of the policie departmnenit
'with your own written report? A. I have never compaired it
Q. To your knowledge has your fattier ever compared it? A~
What he does I am unable to gay.
Q.You, are in the office with him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Every day? A. I conid not say tbhatle did' or did r~ot-; I
am unable to, state that.
Q.If an error appeared In the departmental report; which
wodld abow a less di-ohnrseinent from the police peinsion fund
than your report would show, how could that be detected.? A.
]Dv examining Mhe departmenta report, with our report
Q.Has -the departmental- report ever been e~xamiined in con..
junction with your reort? A. I do not know.
Q. go far asi your knowledge goes from the treasurer's, office
such erorms may go -undetected if they exist? A. They might; as
long as our biooks balance tb~f is all we want
Q.I Simply want Ihe coommlittee to understand the system, tia
you caamrry on,; of course, we will explain that laker? A. Very
Wei-I
(YairmaL,_n O1hainore-Do you want to ask him any more
M~r..Golf.- No.
ChaIrman0 O'Cornnor.- I wa-ut to ask him a queostio or two'.
By Chairmrnan O'Connor:
Q.The method off bcookkeeping tha you keep in the police
departmment, enables you at any timoe -to tell the amount of
byalan~ce thba-t yuu have in the bank where the pension fund is
depoaited? A. Yes~ Sir.
Q. And when yo-ur b~ank book is written up and the -vouchers
reftured, by examining the balance there and comipaering it wit~h
the vouchers drawn, could you detect if an unauaiorized check




had been drawn on t31ht fund? A. We cbuld; we keep every
cheek and every stuti 
Oress-esanimantion by Mr. Nicollt      i. Have any unnautweized cheek, as suggested by Chaiaa
OConnor, ever been dawn on that fuind? A. No, sir.
Q. You are tie assistamt bookkeeper? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your father is the boikeeper of tis particular pension
fund? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long has he been bookkeeper of hat fund? A. Sunee
1857, I thin.k.
Q. Is he n old man;? A. Quite old.
Q. Has he the custody of al these,books, someio which you
have poduced here? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does he, with his own hand or do you, under his direction,
fill out these different checks and make these balances? A. He
fills out the pensio-fund checks.,
Q. What ones do you fill out? A. I fill out the polee depattr
ment checks; I keep the police depatmnent aoount but I asit
him -we both assist in the general work
Q. [The books that you have brought here are tlhe polce
pesion-fund che-books? A. Yes, sir.
Q. A11 of these are kept by your father? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have been kept by him for years? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he draws all the   hecks? A. Yes, sir; every cheek
that Is drawn.
Q. And sends them to the treasurer of the boaTd for his signature before delivery to the payee? A. Yes, sir.
Q Does the payee collect his money? A. He comes there and
presents h'muelf, and we take is receipt and those that are out
of towin have to appear before an authorized officer who can take
an affda.vit, and the affidavit is returned to us, and we transmit
the chk to him, after we have the receipt on file by mal.
Q. Do you file all these receipts? A. Every one.     j
Q. Have yon got them all? A. All up to headquarters.
Q. Did Commissioner McCave, as treasurer of the board, ever
draw a check? A. Never; he never drew a check on the pension
fund or any other fund; he has not the records in his keeping t
all.
Q. And your father signed or countersigned every cheek drawn
on the pension fund? A. Every check drawn on all the aaounts.
Q. He put iL s signatmre upon them all? A. Upon al the
checks
Q. And pays them out? A. And pays them out
Q. After he gets the signature of the treasurer and gets a
reeipt? A. Yes, sir.
L.        104




3jnI W. tM.asve   Aes         M    fwM       Vwa   eml
kiadly presat y     ltab chek-book here this nw   gi daie she
f1iw  have yeo got them  A. Yea, sir.
Q. And your bask pa-book? A. Yea- a.. Will yu kidly let me look at them?,LC T~,fr Mt       -
diuef four pass-books and a large check-booi.)
Q. Dot9e the cheek-bok wich you have brought to 0wt
azrwer the paae     of both ywr personai and yor Iass
arccont? A. Ye, sir; all that I have in existence
Q. And the only w&y that yau oan dittiui     on  fa the
other, Is by marking upon each ohek what Wao   t ymi Wh it
to he &awn up? A. No, sir; there is a regular baisu a bObok, and the other one is a small little check-boao
Q A poeket cheek-book? A. Ye, sir.
Q You have      that h Ihere? A. Yee, sir. 
Q. Hve you got it here t A. Yes, sir; I ti   youwBl f   1
k there-there it is
Q. This smal red tleo4lix  is the oheckoo: Wm waih
o     a draw your personal eheca? A. Yes sti
Q. You have no abjects   to ow e;rain  g these  eok, have
ou? A No, sir.
MI.. FIa-Do you want to laimn possessio of Mr. McOlave's
busiess abeck and bank 1boosa 
Mr. G'r- WhbIe ywu as _immiiFng   MN im,we Wast tbem
iger, we will notify Mr. McClave.
Croesxamation by Mr. IcoI 
Q Befoe we coinaience with yowir.examni    I woou nIh.c</:ru_ O'_onaaor — b  thLe direat ex:mmag'tqi- deod, Mr.
%O&. (    Ye.
Mr, NiUol — It is closet thoen, i ft?
Ur. Gaof~ —Yes; with this reservation; tha t~ ere: rught ws
Itr on some matters in the investigation of w*inch the commit
tee &t feel called upon to hear from BMr. MoClave again, sme
&podifc matters
Q. Very well; beore we go into the main question pxa ented
by Mr. Goes eaamianatioa, I want to take up with you, as te treas
irer of the police board, the history of the pension fund and the
means by which it is reruited; will you tell the committee what
are tee soces of incoe of the pension fund? A. Te pensioa
fuiL receives $30,00,0 a year from what is known as the excise




827
fund; it reeetves 2 per oent deductions from the uniformed members of the force, as provided by law, which       amauam
to in the neighborhood of $90,000 or $100,000 a yeaq
it receives  under the   law  cf unexpended    balances  ri
maining in the hands of the treasurer at the close ol
the year, appropifiated for the purpose of paying mlembei
of the foree, wtihi varies from $50,000 to $100,000 a year, as wel
as all u-nclaimed and stoenI prper-ty; muarsqerade balls; boiler
lioeies, pistd permits and donations such as may ooae; I thiia
their reeipts for the past year is about $600,000.
QO.Have you mentioned fines agalast the mnibema? A  1IN
I negleoted that; fines and sick time ad loss of time.
Q Then there is an item of stolen and unclaimed proper
A. I stated th1t
Q. And fees for permits for pistols and hodinig masquerade
balls —all tht goes in? A. Yes, sir; I mentiS ed theow.
Q. Are your accounts, as treasurer of the police fund, eraiie
by aay other braich of the city depqrtaeBt  3 A. Ye, si; the
co        ers of axeouits exanine rpeatedly the books of tit
treaslrer in reference to al of the aocot aomee. wt te  i
deataneut; they have been' eained and passed upon up to
the frst day of April last
Q. Up to the first day of April, 1894? A Yes, sir.
Q. How often do they examine your aecoants as treasureT
A. They have no stated or regular time; they someetJnmes come
in -I think since I have been in the department they have pro1i
ably bee Oere seven or eight times and examined them.
Q. Do they take poiesseion of all your books and vouchers?
A. They take ipoeon of all books and vouchers and everyt   g pertainto g to the finacial tranacta   of the department
Q. And do they make a reert as tae result of that? A. They
make a rept to the oaninsoier f aeoorn ae     nd he to the
mayor. 
Q. As to the eondition of the poliee aecount? A. Yea, ir.
Q. Somnehigas sid in the oaure of Mr. Goff' examinaition
ablot the fact Otht in your department, the poice department,
the fire millio Or nM e o of money, was not expended as it is in
the atbe departnents of the city goviient, through the cokptroier, bau it was paed ont by you directly. Wfil you tell me
why tbat system was adoted and what is the reason of it and
why it forms an exception to the other departments of the city
goveraamet?   Al There being 4,000 members of the force ostensily, and their being distributed throSoag t different parts of the
city at the varionr aftion-hoaees and their fo~:rs c4f dEty being
prescridbe by the ru-les cf the depnirti'.len't, it w ts - sv blished
mmy yearas to, that the most perfect system that could be




COO


gdoptg~ fobr he payment wouad be to provide P& i&e eaptahis- to
get the pa y'-roll and the motey, the fiat day of each month and
pay the men when they retured from, patrol duty, so as not to
take them off of duity; the captains eac-h give a bond back to the
police dej~artnent for $10,000, holding them 'res~ponisible for the
check which they receive from the treawarer, they taking the payroll and they paying the men, they getting the bills and paying
the men and bringing back the pay-rolls to, the treasurer on the
following day - two pay-reas are made - one is ke~pt in the police
departm~ent as a matter of record and the othe in forwarded to
the eomptroller's, office. 
Q.Then the rfal reason is that the dty could not pr.iperly
have all its police force apiplyin~g at the city tieowit-eros officei for
their checks on a given day. witbofut danger to life and property?
A. It was tried some yeam' ago- and plaiced in the hands of the
dianterlnhwere -they had a law passed in the Legislature a~nd
atthe expiration of the year., they went rigght back again.
Q.TheXy went bark again to the old system that was in use
Biefore, dtd they? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Rlow lonug has this system which you have described. beat
In vogue in thuis city? A. I think since 1874.
Q. lIt was not inauguirated by you, was it? Al NI, Anr
Q.But lit was part of the system. of the department before yo~u
were a~ppohitedA? Al Yes, sir; it has been, substantially the syetem, ever since the creation of the department, except the partieular year that I speak of wthen It was placed in the bhands, of the
citylis chamberlain-.
Q.And that was afterward abandoned? A. Yes,% ir.
Q.Da~rig Mr. Goff'Is three days' examinatfion of you., by various
Inuinatlons and sometimes by questionis, he has asked yon or
Wnerred that during the time that you have been a commissioner
of police in this city, that you have directly or Mnirectly, aipproxi
mately or remotely, in scome direct way oir indirect way, received
sOmne cionq~en~gatlion, money consideration or -vauable thing for
the aprpoinkment or promotion or tr'ansifer of any officer on QCe
p-lioe force is tiat tr'uie or false? Al It is false.
Q. Have you ever, during the time that you have been police
zomnmisioner of the city V~ New York, directly or indirectly
Through~ your friends or any other persons, received any Considertkmn or valuable thing for the appointment of any men on the
police force? A. I never have.
Q. Have you ever, since you have been a police comimissioner,
either directly or indirectly, through yourself or through some
ether person, received any consideration or money or other valuable thing for the promotion of any man upon the police force?
'N. I niever have.


0




829


1. Or for the appoinltment of any mai on the polce fre as
cantain? A. No, sir.
Q. Or fr the appointment of a sergeant? Al No, sir.
Q. Or as a roundsman? A. No, sir..    Q Or as a patroman on the police force? A. No, sir.
Q How long have you lived in the city of New York? A. I
was born here on the 11th of September, 1893.
Q. When were you married? A. In March, 1857.
Q How old were you when you married? A. Eighteen years
of age., B      orw mny children have you had? A. Fourteen.;         miw may are living? A Nine..
Nine are now living? A. Yes, sir.
Q. ln addition to that large family, have you had any other
peruons depending upon you for support? AI Yes, sir.
Q. Who have you had depending upon you for sipport? A.
My father and mother; a widowed sister and seven children, and
e0gt ciltren withowt fat&er r moter of my brother'a
Q4 And have you since yor marriage by your own labor sop
ported all this large number of persons? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you first go into business? A. I started first
In 1860.
Q. With whom:? A I was the junior member otf the firm of
Parkha, McCOle & Co.
Q. Was that e firm that failed? Al No, sir; we started in
with a very mall capital, Mr. Parkim furishing the money; we
oaity had about $1,500, and after we had been doing business a
wlhih Drf broater and I bought out his interest and then weni
on togetier for four or five years, up to 1875, when I bought my
brothers iterest out; the time of the embarrassment of the firm
was in 1870; my brother and myself were then together.
Q. It has been suggested here by Mr. Goff that you, while you
were treasurer of the board, used some of the pension fund for the
purpose of speculating in Wall treet, is that true? A. No, sir3
it is not tee.
Q. Have you ever used a dotlar of the police fund for any purpose? A. N, sir; ever in my Wle
Q4 Or for any private purpose?  L Never in the world; oouMd
int if I wafted toL
Q. You have been in very active bsness sinee 1875 hiave you
not? A. Yes, sir; I have beeu in ative b'snes siee 1860;
before that I would staie th-t im 1852 I entered the New York
College, here in the city of New York, and left there in 1854, and
taught in granmmer sc     No. 17 for aboit a year; r then we-nt
as a clerk in an impoting hrdware hiause for about a year, and
hey failed, and then I secured a positio  as entry derk in the




830


wholesale dry good store of Stoue, Star & OC., No. 34 Coardnt
at-eet, and I remained there for a year or two, until I took tg
general management of a bor facttry and lumber yard, a3d
from that I went into the business I speak of in 1860,
Q. On your own amcount? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Bua m pafPlip? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you went on in that business until yoi ftnay
bonght out your other partners and became sole owner? A. Yes
sir; I bought out my broiher's interest in 1875, I ttink it was
Q. And you have been doing ever sinee that time a consider
ale busines? A. Yes, sir; a pretty large business.
Q. Some years more and some years less? A. Yes, sir; It,varies, I should Indk, driwn   the entire period of my business
life, my business would probMaby average $400,000 a year.
Q. But you have been under very large and heavy expesec
kering all this time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Wbat has it cast you to maintain your children, your grandu
ahildren, your father amnd mother and sister and her seven hildren and all the others that you have mentioned, about a yeaS
'A Unless it is necessary, I would not care about stating that
Q. Wel, t cost you a very consideramte arnomat of money?
L. Yes, Orf.                     -                   t
Q. Drtng the period of your business life, bhve ywo been ax
mected at all wit poiies? A. Yes, dr; I was eledted as an
aidenran in 187&. Tell us Lu ywr own way what your politics have been am
what your portflcal aso'dations have been and the offices y
have held and your connetiom generally with polites? A. My
father was an old line WIg and I inherited my Republicanism
frmn himi; I took the pfIoa4mn for John C. Fremont when I was
18 years old; in 1860, I east my first vote tor Abrahm Lnha'on,
and frm  ia time to ltifs I have never failed tb cast my vote
and support the cmadidates of the Republican party; I took the
platform  over and over again, an;d I was president of a RepWbm
lecan organizadton for 16 yeamr
Q. What organization was that? A.L The Seventeenth Assemby
district; I was a member of the Bepiblean Stte Cmnflttee fa
five or six ye   and fimt vicepresident of the Republican couny
omittee for a number of years.
Q. Have you now stated all of the political associationm that
you have lad to do with? A. In what rspect —as to holding.iee, d you mean?
Q. Yes; as to holding office —you were an alderman, were you
Iit? A Yes, sr; I was elected first in 188, as an aldemn
tatm  what was known as the Eighth Senatorial district; a terr
a'vred by whdh was from Fortieth treet to the Harlem rier
and frm Est to North rivers; I ran two years in tha diAite




881


naid was nB flirt RepaliEca  aldennaa who Wo     e  ekr t ee d
tiere; my par  ten no nt      me fwr Uaa    a    t   am  I
was    std  to fi i poeiton; tey rnomtaatel m e* agaia for
ai     '1ar e, It I deecewd to acept it; I then, some tro
or three yewra t    being a al derman, was appodited by Mayor
Fralia xE&w4, ms a Repubiaa conmsisioner of police
Ql tnAder te   mw which required the mayror to atpoint a
bep^Uaxm? A     Thewe never has een any law in refereee to
JtAt qeeik~; it ws held by soae lawyers that here was the
tnferenoe, owg  to the fart that  e inspectors of electiox from
1be drfferos3 #itical parzes- the inference  was tha tiere
omfkd  b t sia  <bai  o Ln the boward, ne or more.
Q.   -taB i-t    prarooe for many years? A. Yes, sir.
VQ   hfeg the time hat you hare been police co'mnrs.ioner,
w    ya emesaed the atintment of lare irber of
_pMm   on     plide oe to? A Yes, sir; I have.
Q. H~fe yw   reeived lette  of recommenmdatioo, rwging the.r.._oe.t e.f to e pen Ms?  A. Yea, sir; genaerfy, where
t p-o-snYi   I have endvored s e t a recommendation from
" ris   ea ie wi se employ he has been engaged.
Q As Mr. oE a has properly potrted out, is the distrntlon of
pwertie te polce oad', ye              the Reprblicin organ
lteatsa aw the Reprtblican prty, o&Mer iOtng betng equal, and
this ftira of te men being ascertained by means of the c1i
aesmee eaDnaftioa, you hawe accepted the reoomnea  ation of
Rym~cviaP     Muttshave ymspa? A. Ye, sir.
Q 3Jt    is toe Democrat _ooiMiEs  ers hare accepted the
reBnr     atIi   of thelr Iemeani< frinds? Al  faaey they
a  tB ti   never taked with them abot ft
Q  ta w     1tee r thery yd, yo  accepted the r ne- aidatlon
f ro    e  lt   a frieads? A. Certanly.
Q. Yoa were grerned, were yo not, by the dcIaract   tan4lit  and juigment of the petson who reommrended the apa     ftsforoffice? A_ Yes ir.. Takae a loik t the list of nues ' hat I hbw yo a   stadh
whether or not yio appl ited gentlemean  te pate p e faroe upon
the recommenuntiw  of the men named i fetat litt t    Yeq
sir; I appointd for all of those geatLm
Q These are sme ed the gSdriame for whBm Wa qppolnted i
AL Yea, ir.
Q. Ar Intance, you remaed t    mornig tht yw aNb' ited
one ef the captains at the recomendaton of Mr. (Cy,  I tink?
'A. Ye, sfi.
AQ '   'Fr. Wh eb Maeelf stated ft    hbe YIof utten you
ame't       t r hos abroT A  mi Ye wds,  aier.
Q JA~ t tOat M s brotuer, Wlltam  eward e    We iad also wrt




8302


ten?- A. Ye~, -ir;aiid Mr. Brookdield was one of the prowlnmneu
indorsers for OCaptain Price.
Q. Without going into the names of these ge~ntlemen, is it 
f~t  en~iiIythat~ where gentlenmen in your poxty, of good
repute and sound judgment and a fair undersba~nd'ing, recommended the ap~pointment to an office, you gave his consideratioai
great weight, provided the -applicant's fitness had been ascertained by the civil service eaiation? A. I served them
whenever I could.
Q. I understood you to say that during the entire time that
you were oin the force that you have appixin-ted five, or recommended the appointment of five, policec.Vcaains? A. I should
think that was ab~uit it.
Q.And a-re their names Straus, Stepbenson, Price, Martens and
Westervelt? A.. I am a little in doubt whet-her I recoiuiien~ed
Westerv~elt, but I -think likely I did either Mr. F rench or n3Wself;
I don't remenmber whi'ch.
Q. Mr. Frenich was also a Republican commissoer? 
Yes, gir.
Q. You have brought us the recommendations of Captain Price?
A. I have brought you some orf them; I have them all as matter
cit record.
Q. But yo'u have not brought the record in ref ereirce to Gq
tain Martens? A. No, Sir.
Q. Or of Captain Stephenson? A. N~ sir; I do not think I
brought afl in reference to any of them; I think, 'in tbhe case o14
Captain Price, I have 74) or 80 or 90 letters of indoxrsement.
Q. You have a large number of indorsements from the Rep~ublicans in good stand-ing In tbis community? A. Yes, sir; for all
of them.
Q. In reference to all of those appointmnents? A.. Yes, sir;the best in the world.
Q. But after these maftains had passed itrmigh the civil service examination and had been roee tD you for appotnIt
ment, did you take into caosideration a"d give duve weight and
consideration to the, recomnmendation of these gentlemen? A. I
did, always.
Q. it has been, inferred by Mr. Goff in the comurse of his inferential exonnatw     that at the time of the appointment of Captain
Price, that you received some consideration; is that true? A.
No, sir; It is not.
Q.Did you, directly or Indirectly, either tbrough yourself or
thrug~h some other person, approxinwately or remotely, ever
receive any moiney or other valuiable thing for the recommenida.
tion of the promotion of Oaptain P~riee? A.. Never in my-1ife.
Q. It has likewise been inferred by Mr. Goff, -that at the time




of Se ap o~txenit of Caj-tan Price. you received some valuable''
conmderaiaon for recomunending his pronotion; I ask- you
whether directly or indirectly, approximately or remotely, either
throvgh yourself or any other person, you received any money
or valuable consideration for suaggesting or recommending the
appoimntent or promotion of Captain Price? A. I did. not.
Q. And is the sAme answer true in regard to Captains Marten;,
Ste~ien~n and Westervelt? A.. The same answer is true in
regard to every appointment that I ever made on the police force.
Q.Smething has been said in regard to Inspector William,
the trial of Inspector Williams, which took place many years
age; do you remember that trial? A. Yes, very well, indeed.
Q. What were the charges made aginst Inspector Williams?
A. There were several specificatio~ns claimed, that hoiuses for
prostitution and gambling houses -
Q. It was under the general charge of conduct unbecoming an
olficer, was it? A. Yes, sir.
Q.. And the specifications were, were they not, that gamblinghouses and disorderly houses, of other character existed in his
district? A. Yes, sir.
Q~ Who made the charge? A:. If I remember correctly, it was
mabily made by a man b~y the name of lh,,ailan, was was oonnected with the Society for the Prevention of Grime.
Q. Do you remember anything of the history of the trial? A.Yes, sir.
Q. Did it take place before you? A. I was one of the trial
commissioners.
Q. Who appeared for Cap'tain Williams, and what occurred on
the trial? A. Mr. Elihu Root, Col. George Bliss and Joel 13.
Erhardt were Captain Williams' counsel in the case;, do you
know what occurred?
Q. Yes, in a general way? A. I would simply say in reference
to the complainant, who was Mr. Challan, that the counsel oni
hle other side, headed b~y MW. Root, agreed with the prosecution,
-that if they would put the complainant on the stand-..
Mr. Goff-I object to that.
Chairman O'Connor.-What i's the objection?
Mr. Golf.- Mr. Challan was -never the complainant, the record
4oea not show that.
The Witness.-.The trial papers will show it
Mfr. Golf.- No, you are mistaken, Mr. Commissoe~
Mr. Nicoll.-.You have the com~plaint there.
Mr. Goff.- The complaint was signed by the 1Rev. 1towa~t
Crosby.
'Chairm~an O'Cornor.- We will overrrule the objectiona




W- Goff-._I furter object to the witness stating wiaf fie
tlhiks or alleges took place be'tween counsel for the prosecuiiton
and the othier counsel, what does he know about it?
Q. Mhe question infers personal knowledge.
Mr. Nicoll.- I did not ask him to tell anything of that sort; I
asked him to tell what occurred on the trial.
Mr. Goff.-]Ee was going on to state what the agreement of
wmnsel was, Sand I object to that.
Mr. Nicoll,- If he knows he can telL
Mr. Goff.-I object to the commissioner stating anything
eimeept what appeared upon the record.
Chairman O'Connor.-We have allowed a pretty broad lati.
ttide in the dhreot erauninaitiom, and we will give the defene his
same opportuiy 
Mr. Goff.-We have kept to the record.
Chairman O'Con-nor.-This involves personal knowledge. This
Is confined to what took place on the trial.
Q. Go on. A. The counsel for Captain Williams ageed that
It the prosecution would place Mr. (Jhallan on the stand, that
they would prove that he was a receiver of stolen goods and a
keeper of a house of prostitutioua himself, and a thief generally;,
that is expressed in the brief of Mr. Root; have you that bunt
there?
Q.I have the brief.
By Chairman O'Connort
Q. Was that so stated to the comminiaoners? KA Yes, gir
that was so stated to0 the commissi'oners at the trial.
Mr. Goff.- We have been excluded from showing wbat coamsel
state; that forms no-part of the record. I simply read from the
opinion of Commiassioner Porter -and that forms part of the judg.
ment-roliL We db not refer to any. ling stated or Urged by coiunsel
on either sida Whot earthly objeot can -there be in showing
wM t oaunsel upon, that trial agr~eed to.
Chairman O'Connor.- Yore offered the evidemce of Captain
Wiliams' case in order to have the committee inifer something
a~gainst flue commissioner, an-d we shall allow the comimissioner to
explain thaitI
Mr. Goiff.- I do not wanit the comniissione~r shut off f rom, any
ewplanatioun, but I think it is imprper to permit him to go on
and state somethilng that does not appear on the recor:.
Cheairmnan O'Connor.- lie may state anything that occuwrred
on the trial, to his knowledge.
Mr. Goff.- It opens the gate to us then; that is6 alL.*
Chairman O'Corinr.- Certainly,.,




8305


The Wff~etn- The Wsemte~ne    Ifiat I ina&          on
reteord; tha~t is the reason Out I made it.
Presmend-W-11 of thie (NOaflttm  eXcMt Sn    To  LxoW  g4
SaXtDn. Counisel for bo-th. sides presaet.
SeiaorO'onnor in the dhairA
3dmu MeClkwe iwe      h    tn
Cross-examinaitioni resumed by Mr!. Nleolft
Q. The Last questoion, as I recollect, had referenft 1 Aie bftIa
of Oap)tain Wilias, and just as reess acauirred yen wore about
to state wfrat had occurred oni that trial aIteoting ycvwz judgmeent
and final decision in the matter? A., If the stenogirmpher will
please just read as f~ar as my statement went.
Q. We have changed the stenograiphers In the meautims, oAd
so we have not got it? A. Sinall I state the case over.
Q. Yes; yo'u might state it. over ibriefly? A. Well, T stated,
that in that case Mr. Eliihm Pi~ooi Col. Geowge Bliss, and.AMr. Joel
B. Er~iardt were the counsel for Ca~ptain W~ilamn at the times
and that the complainant, In the case at least one of the cont.~
plaina~nts, was a main named (Thiatialan; that Mr. Root, on the part
of his colleagues, challenged the other side to plaice Mr. Chatlain
on the stand, promising, if they did, that they were prepared to
show that he was a receiver of stolen goods, a crook, and a
keeper himself of two houses of prostitution; Chiatlain was not
put upon the stand, and in the brief filed with -the papers sub.mitted for the ciounsel of Capbain Willhiams, that fact will be
clearly set forth in that brief; the conclusions in the brief of
those gentlemen, after listening to the trial, the closing pars'
graqk, If my memory is correct about it, was that Captain WiEk
liaxnm had substantially put it in the form. of a demand; should be
pinorted rather than punished, as the evidence all went to show
that he had so thoroughly performed his duty as a icaptain as to
entitle him to promotion.
Q. Look-at the paper whitch I -now hand you and state whether!
or not that Is the paper which influenlced your judginent?,
Chairmian O'Ooin or.- What is the paper, a brief?
Mr. Nicoll.- A brief.
Q. Look at paragraph six, the last of it? X7? Yes, -sir
Q. Now read the lost paragraph, of the brief? A. "These
'charges against Captain Willilanms axe based -upon facts generall
In their character, and, so far as they are true, of long standig
the last chairges against ihim were of a similiar nvature; both`
were preferred just an he was a prominent candidate, for promoap




83G
none to an IngPecto~rship of the police. TAm both cases, the real
abject is believed to be to prevent his promotion. This remark,,
of course, does -not apply to the superintendent of poliee, who
has but performed his duty. It is no disparagement to -the
other officers of -the police force to say that Captain Williams
Is started to be one of the ablest and miost effilcient captains on
the force. Under the test weight of civil; service examinations
recently concluded, he stands:first of all the captains who stand
for promnotion. The high state of efficiency in the admi-nistration
of -the law in his precinct is coinced up-on the trial.  The
diligence and faithulness in administering the particular rule
in question has been prorvided here, without any possibility of a.
doubt, and in all the testimony there is not a. word to, pacss
discredit u~r  i.To have incurred the enmity of the bad
men who formulated his prooecuttvorn. Is to his credit; and the,
judgment of the boa.rd, as a result of that prosecution, ought t o
be ra~her his Prowmtke than his Punishment.
W(Signed.)     RLIUROOT,
"Oounsel for the Defendant"
B3y Mr. G~off:
Q. Where 'i's Col. Erhardt's name there? A. lie was one of the
men who made a speech at the trial in beh11alf of Inspector Williams, Which Is a part of the record, taking the same ground, that
he shoiuld have been promnote.
Q.And Mr. Bliss also? A. Mr. Bliss, also; yes, sir; Mr. Moss
will remember; he was one of the counsel on thie other Bide.
Mr. Moms-If you want my recAolcitlion, I will tell it.
Mr. Godff.-Mr. Moss will state afterwards
'The Witness.- Yes, sir.
By Mr. Nicoll i
Q.Now, you were interrogated yesterday in reference t-o the
trials of police officers before you, Mr. McClave; anid some. attempted inconsistencies were sought to be made out in regard
to the* judgment oO your board; take, for instance, the ea~se of the
an- that name of the man I forget - who was digsmissed on.
account of the unclean 'condition of his: couch or clothing;- did.you take into cotnsiderafdon, in dismissing him from -the force,
the previous bad features of his record? A. Yes, sir; he hall
twenty-nine different charges against him in a period of four or
Alve years.
q In aperiod of fouror five yeaxs?  A. Yes.
Q. And when you rendered a judgment against 'him; o f die'
vnissal upon those final charges, you took in-to consideration the
fact th-,at he had been previonsly charged and convicted by youir
boardY,, of o'llor &TweA. Yle,, sir; I sent up yesterday, Y1r.
Nicoll. in ec 1' pi;:t — P. lo0 see if T cecuid learn:wz




ngit hal iadafefrdenoy to refresh my memIory, and word bhas
been brought back to me that h~is captain states that he w as
thoroughl dirty, thoriughly filthy, and was not fit Ito sleep with
the other men or in the beds occupied by the other men.
Q. Now, in the ca~se of the man whio was convicted' for a period
of five or six days' pay, I tikwas who?      A. Sergeant
Mocartiie~y
Q. ]For assauilt? A. Yes; lthe complaint was dismissed.
Q. Tell us the reason which induced you to act in that case?
A.The testimony in the case went to show, if my recollection, is
now correct, that in-stead of the sergeant assaulting the citizen
the citizen had assaulted the sergeaait; and the testbimony of
Mr. Voorhees, acting, as police magistrate at the time, was that
the sergeant was brought into the court-room covered all over
with blood; the citizen afterwards went before the grand jury to
try anid have him indicted, and the case was thrown. orut, and the
grand jury would not indict.
Q. The citizen withdrew the ch~arge, Mr. Jerome suggests, ta
me, from the grand jury; withdrew the- charge before the grand
jury?  A. I don't know that; the grand jury did not indict.
By Mr. Goff:
Q.The citizen was an emplo~ye of a street railway In the city
a~ New York? A.. I don't recollect that.
Q~He was a street-car driver In the eity of New York? A. I.
dcuil recollect that.
By Senator' Bradley:
Q.You made a remark about the captain, saying he was not
fit to sleep in another m-an's bed? A. Yes.
Q. Are there any more than one who sleep in one bed? A-.
Some of the sta-tion houses are so overcrowded that'it is sometimes necesisary for one officer to get in the bed as soon as the
other gets out of it; we are making the improvements as f ast as
we can and cian get tho money; we are trying to build one or.
two station -houses a year, when the money can be got; I think it
would be a good thingf, for the department if a large amount of
appropriations were made and a large number of the precincts
were rebuilt; when we go before the board of estiate and apportionment they try to keep down their budgets as far as possible,
and -dhey give us one at a time; and when there is only one o~f
them it would Itake 35 or 36 years to build them, although we
-have conustruicted five or six in the last two years.




f.y M ricoliY
Q Your attention was ealled to Martin Hanaly, of (ie
'went-fourth precinct, who was convicted before your board of
several days' pay; do you recollect the circumstances of that caae?
No, sr; I do not recall them now.
Q. You do not recollect the circumstances of that case? 
No, sir.
Q. Now, on the question of making appointments, MIr. McOlave,
have you been, during the time you were commissioner, particular
io see the applicant yourself, and to examine him? A. Always.
Q. Tell us what your prtactice is in that regard? A. My practlee in reference to the applicant, when he first comes before me
with a letter from some one introducing him, about his aid, about
his height, where he was born, how long he has lived in New
York, what has been his various occupations, running back to a
number of years; and if that is satisfactory, I then send him out
ta write a letter of application in his own handwriting, asking
fo the place; when that is done his papers are sent into the
crief clerk's office to get what we call a "character form;" his
character must be certified to by five reputable people, who have
known him for not less than five years each; and if that is entirely
satisfactory. the papers then go to the board of police surgeons;
they meet every Monday and examine applicants physically; they
fle their certificate of examination on the applicants, and they
become a part of the papers signed by the surgeons; if those are
all satisfactory they are brought before the full board of police
commissioners; they are then forwarded to the civil service
examiners, and we never hear any more of him again, unless his
name should happen to come back on the eligible list; if he does
come back-these men keep track of it mojre than the commissioners do; they seem to know when they will come back; and
we get back 20 per cent. of the entire number we forward to the
civil service; they then go again before the commissioner who
signed their application, calling his attention to the fact
that his name is on the eligible list, ordinarily producing
additional letters  requesting  the  appointment; the  corn
missioner then, if he thinks of taking    them  up again,
goes  over the   questions  and  compares the   statements
as to where he was born, and occupation, and so forth;
and  during  all my   time in the   department I do not
recall a man that I was ever going to take before the
board of police commissioners, to ask for an appointment, that I
have not always put directly those questions to the applicant,
"Have you ever given, have you ever agreed to give any money
or any other cnsjderation of any nature for your appointment




to 1nyoe?' Unl~ess thefr answer is absglurt and positive,!!t
would not be touched; if they are appointed they go again
through another examination to see there has been no change
in their ph~ysieaJ condidtite, since the time of their application;
'they then make affidavits to the facts set forth here, and their
auppoiuintent is made; thiat is the urodus operandilI take always.
Q. Now, in making the appointment, is the first and chiefesit
wsdefstflon the merit of the candidafbe bimse. as ascertained
in the way you ha-ve described? A. iUnless I had. ever~y reason
in the world to believe he was a proper person for the position,~ of
patrolkman, I would not torutch him at all.
Q. And In selecting between persons eqoally meritorious Is
your. judgment controlled by reoomnmenidatkns. -as to his good,
charaicter from persgone in -whom, you ba-ve confidence?
A. Yes, sir.
Q.Mr. Webb testified this mo rning, in reference to a Mr.
Patrick Shay, you, it appears, was appointed on the police farce,
and stated that he loaned him the sum of $300 during the interval
of his employment by the corporation and his appoinIment on,
-the forced for the purpose of maintainng him self and his mother;
there was some inference in the question of the counsel that that
mmney was not paid for that purpose, but was pyaid for -the purpose of procuring the appontmnent upon the police f orce; I ask
you now, whetherT direefly or indirectly, tihrorugh yourself or any
o'2her, peraon, you received or aggreed, to receive any sum of money
for tke consideration of Sboiy's appomnintment? A. I did -not, sir.
Q.And whether or not you appointed Shay only after he had
pasdthrough thewe various ewnlinatloas required by law, and
estailisbed by yomrself upon the recomamendation of -the persons
in ~whom you had confidence-? A.. I did, sir.
Q. Look~ at the pa~per which I now show you and state whether
or uot tbose ame the individuals who recommended Shay to
you as a mmn id good dhaemaciter; and, if so, please read them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who are they? A. It reads Mhat "Each of the undersigned
(resperetflly represen~ts to the commissioners of the police department of the tity of New York. that he car. and does hereby
testify that he knows the above applicant personally; that he is
a man of good, moral character, of sober and industrious habits;
that he has never known him to be guilty or convicted of any
criminal] act or disorderly conduct; and each of the undersigned
f arther says, that he consents that this certificate may be made
public, and is willing to furnish any other Information, respecting the applicant which he possesses." (Name signed.) "IEE
Walter Webb, 20~2 Madison avenue, George D. Wilder, D. D.,
Biverdale Rectory, New York city; Samu~el D. Babcock, 036 Fifthi




Ievenuu%  New York; Thomas J. Cutlibert~ 15 Cortlandt street4
2{ew York, and John S. Alger, Riverdale, New York city."
Q. Now, loclk at the lette which T show you and the reply to
it two days later, and state whether oin not that is the correspondence which passes be~tween you and Mr. Webb upon flue
subject; and], if so, please read it? A. Yes,~ sir; since Mr. Webb
was here this movuing I sent a mem-enger to -the ]police headquarters to get all these papers in questlon, andi thesle have been
returned to mne.
Q.Please read me Mr. Webb's letters? A."Te New I[ork
Central and Hudson River Railroad Co., Grand Central Depot, IL.
Walter Webb, third vice-president. New Y'okk, INovember 2G,
1892. My D~ear Mr. McClave.- Tle bearer of this is anxicus
'to get on the police force.   I have   nonhim     well for
the past five years, aend Ne is an enatirely roliahie, straightfor-ward, capa-ble and honest man. I htave no hesitation
recomnmendliffng, and will be glad to do, anything, I can to, get -.
the place he wants. I feel very much interested in him, and
wart to help him. If there is anything I can do -to further his
1% isules, I shall certalinly take pleasure in doing so. Will you not
let me know just what h-is chances are, of gettfing On the Police
force vecry shortly? If you can aid me in any way in this matter
I shiall be only too glad — 3 reciprocate at any time when I can do
so. I send this letter to you umder cover, an~d if you will drop
me a line stating what I should do and what the pro~spects are, 12
shall be greatly obliged. The bearer, S3hea, has been in the
temploy of the American:Expre~s Company for some time, and I
bave no doubt they will recomnmend him fully as hightly as I do.
iXours very truly, H. Walter Webb. Hon. John McClave, Corn.
mnissioner of Police."1 My reply to it is under date of November
218, 2892: "MTNy Dear Mr. Webb.- I h)ave your f avor of the 2'('' th
inst., in reference to Patrick V. Shea, for appointment as patrolvian In the police department. I have given to him a certificate
to eappear b-cfore ouir board of poi~ce surgeoms on Monday r:t,will be their first meeting day, to be ex~amined as to. his hJu
~':nd~ioTIf he passes Ru~ch examination, and I have no doubt
'he will, fro-7 his general av'onchis papers wiil then be
seint to the civil service commirilS1on, at Cooper Union, for examiiiatilon, and th~ey will have tot notlify him -to appear for examoinaton whene-ve(,r it will takce place. They g1e1nerally have two
(.xanihoatl.ouas a1 year,. for the pston of parle  nour depart.
mri.One, I think, takes pl-ace valongM In Arlor May, and the
o hr some time either in S-8ep ezber or O-ctober. Whenever
there are vacannce's 'Ina our department we notify the civil service
board to that effect, and ask for an eligi7ble list, from whicha to
fill such vacancies. They, as Provided by law;, send us a numnber
of names equal to one -and a half limes the nu, —,mber of vcice




ixising, commen 'Ing with the one having the ihs   e  et
and runningr down until they reach the particular number slent
us. It is from such a list our appointments are made. I feel conx1dent that Shea will pass the necessary examination. He look-,s
io -be good ph~ysically, and at least ordirparily intelligent; and if
he should get himself in an eligible poasitilon (as provided by lw
I should be only too glad to grant your request and have him-L
appointed. There is ino, possible way in which the matter caln
be hurried, else, I should take pleasure in expediting it for you.
The laws and the rules of the civil service commission gwovei-n
and regulate the mode of examinations, etc. With kind regards,
I am, very truly yours, (Signed) John McClave, Police Commissioner. H1. Walter Webb, Esq., vice-president, etc. (Dictated4"'
Q. You were interrgated in. the, course of the examination by
Mr. Goff with reference to the absence of certain checks and
blknk stubs, which appear in the check-book; have you mad,~ any
inquiries for the purpose of furnishing, the committee with an
explanation of that fact? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Look at the letter which I now show you, and see whether
you think it will assist you in making your explanation to tbe
committee? A. WNhen Mr. Goff called my attention to the fact
of the 1G chiecks, I think it was from the Bank of North America
thiat the stubs were marked], "1No checks filled out for these
atuils; " I at ounce sent up to the treasurer's bookkeeper fo-x an.
explanation as to that fact, and -the reply that I gout is Mlay 22d.
Mr. GOV.- I think, gentlemen, we ought to ba-ve the witness
who wrote the letter here.
The Witness.- -This is si gned by the treassurer's bookkeeper.
Mr. Golff.- I know, but we have had the treasurer's book.
keeper here.
Chairman O'Co~nn~or.- We can not admit thiat in evidence, -yoi
know.
The Wiltneiss.- Ii will sta-te the facto without reading it
By Mir. Niccil:
Q.  siplyha,,nd you that to refresh your recollection of It
after reading it.
Gltairanya O'Co-na)r.- Hie can retfresh his recollectiwn with- it.
A. It happens sometimes - I have statcd that the ponsi onai-ra
a.r*e paild qua~rte~rly on ihe first Ctay cef each month.
Q.The firast.1 day of ecacili qiwrt~er? A. Yes; each quarter coomnMercingr On th e first of J-anrary, and then On the firat of Aprii,
and Juy and November; new, theie are in thse nelighb~orjhoo-d of
1,200 of those checkq, and it beccme%,ees;r thtat -they shouLld
be dim'wu a littile ahead of the first of the maonth;;t~yare all




dateda h~owever, on the first day of the monath, and they are
generally filled out and signed by the treasurer four or five days
before the fir't of the monthh; now, it ha-ppens sometimes that
when the pensioners come to collect their money that there are
some that (10 not appear; we then learn that the pensioner has
died four or five days, perhaps, before the first of the m~nth, and
theriefore would not be entitled to the fdll amouint in the body of
the cheek, and check is taken from -the biack of the book, the number of it is scratched off, it is numbered to correspond with the
nu-mber of the cheek that wan filled;out origin-ally for the full
quarter; Utb~ dhek is destroyed and the other one, for a smaller
mnowit, is stituted in Its place; that acomins for the chleek
in the back.
Mr Gorff — May I look at this letter? We ask that this letter
be put in evidence, if the gentlemen please.  (Being &the laas
letter shown witness)
haCirmnan OOomnwor.- Very well; i you want it in evideimm
Aetter marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 3,) and is as follows
"1 Treasurer's Office,
'Police Department of the City of New York. I
No. 300 M-ulberry '9treet,
"New York, May 22, 1894.
'MTr. Mr~Clave~:
"Dear Sir.- Te bani 4tui which appear in the cheek-book
is explained in this way. The checks are made out and sgneed
sometimes one week before the empdrattion of the quarter.  After
the checks are signed, I am informed of the death of a pensioner.
I am then obliged to make a new cheek for amount actually duIe
to the date of the deaitih of the pensioner. I take a check from
the back of the book and make a check for the correct anmount,
giving the cheek, or numbering the check, the same number,
destroying or burning the first one. As the names are entered in
alhaibetical order, I amn obliged to keep them so to avoid eon.
fusion alnd errors.
A                              Respectfully,
"GEG. D. GOrTW, B. CQ
Q Nor, on reference to the existence of dikraderly pl-aces in
the city of New York, such as gamnhbiing-houzsei cr policy shopas
or housEs of prostitution, the diuty of inspecting, observing and
suppressing thse 'is imposed by law uipon the police, is It not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And not upon the commissioners? A. No, sir.
Q. And the board of police have made rule4, perhaps, pifor to
your incumbency? A. Yes, sir; always been In existence.




Q. In which that duty in distributed among the force, d frw
the superintendent down to the captabir and their subordinates;
is that the fact? A: Yes, &ire
Q And do you rely under those rules and under that system of
law upon the subordinate offiers for the purpose of suppressingthose p;Le, as far   as possible to do so? A. Ntefearify, we
have to, sir.
kQ. And in case of their failure to do so, and charges are made
against theme, do you examine the charges and coduduct the trial,
and make your conclusions accordingly? A. Yes, sir; that is
always the case.
Q. And that is the system on which the department is conducted? A. That is the general system.
Q. It is not your duty, as a comnmsaloner, or that of any of
the other commissioners to go about the city of New York for the
purposes of ascertaining the existence of 'gambli-ng-ihouses, or
policy shops, or brothels? A. We never considered it so.
Q. That is what is impiosed by the statute on the unifkrrmcd
force? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And fhat is your explanation of the question propounded
to you by Mr. Goff yesterday as to why you did not yourelf go
around and inspect the places referred to in certain newspapers?
A. That was my answer; yes, sir.
Q. Which one of your daughters did Gideon Granger marry?
A. Clara.
Q. And when did he marry her? A. On the first day of Decenber, 1881.
Q. Had you known him prior to that time? A Yes, sir.
Q. Had you known his parents? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had they been living in the city of New York? A. Yes, sdr:
they came from Onmandaigua to lve In New York ebmoot two
years prior to that time.
Q Were they good people, in good postilon and excellent
standing? A. Very exIcelleut, indeed, sir.
Q. And how long had you known tbWs yovng ma prior to the
time when he married your daughter? A. I should think ee had
been coming to our home for about a yeaA peiii s, or a year
and a half, maybe.
Q Before that time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that you had got to know someing  aboit bim Jvrra~'
a. Yes, sir; I suppose I did.
Q. Had you conversations with him In rtspeott to his ircm.nmibnces and abWitles? A. Ie*.
Q. His position and his work? W. I Oid, sir.
Q, And were you induced by this knowledge to consent to an




alliance with your daughter'. That was partially itf sir and
they both seemed to love one another.
Q. And you believed him to be a worthy young m  at that
time? A. Why, certainly I did.
Q. At or about the time of the marriage, had you any transaction with him; do you re     thalect tim, Mr. McGhwe? A. Yes; I
renember it;oan the very day he was married.
Q What was that tzranisaction? A. He came btome at police
headquairters on the day that he was maried; he had in hit hiands
some bills of lading, and he said, that very unexpeete;ay cectaiin drafts had been drawn unpou hini ani he found that he was a
little short in his bank aculnt, and, in x iew of the f -act that hie was
going off on his wedding trip that night to be gone 10 or 12 dayss,
he asked me if I would not lend 'him  50O on his note for 20 days,
endorsed by Mar. Judd, the gentle aen  he was with.
Q. Did you know Mr. Judd? A. I have never seen him, sir.
Q. What did you say to that?  A. I thought it was a little
strang-re; I did not like it,;coming just at that time; I had no
reason, however, to doubt the truthfulness, of his statement; I
accepted his statecenut, and gave him $500 on the note.
Q. And is this the note that he gave you; look- at the paper
which I now sh-ow, y ou, and state whether or not that is the note
lie gave you upon that afternoon? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Ie tdhe name "George W. Judd"11 written on the back of the
note? A. There is that name there; yes.
Q. Do you know whether Mr. Judd ever Signed that? A. Mr.
Judd was in the court-rooao the day before yesterday.
M1r. Goff.- Objected to
(Dhairnan O'C0onnor.- Objection sustdaine. If he knows, that
is proper.
M1,r. Goff. ---I only object to what Mr Judd said in court.'
Thae witness.- I only know fronm what Mir. Judd s-id.
CUairamn O'Connow. Mr. Judd is the best witnes&
Mr. NicolL- May I call Mr. Judd after I get through with
Mr. Mchla re?
Chairman O'Comnao'r.- Yes; you can call him now if you want
to. Is he in court?
Mr. Nicoll.- I do not know that he is in court here now. I
did not suspect we would want him to-day.
Chairmann O'Connor.- You do not expect, after contradicting
Graniger, to ask to strike orut his testimony, do you? If you
Intend to give evidence that G-ranger has made sitatements afil rniatively, which are not true, you are -not going to move to strikt
out the testimony? I do not expect to express any ocpinion orte
wtayv or the other. TIc-e is n- ose of co r'1  iiOiklif"
it i's striken out, amd we will stole it of! if hie is not pI-'VUC(!d._




AU.Mfr. Nilcoll.-We will see whether he is produced 1atem~ Wei
can inot crows that bridge -until we get to it
Q. Now, Mr. McClave, in the course of his examination, Graugei
stated aft page 1184 of the minutes: 'Q. Mr. McClave has swe=
here to-day that he never received a check Signed by G-eorge W
Judd, for the sum of 2MO, payable to his order; do you knoiw
whether such statement is true, or not? A. I know he received a
chrelck" This is Granger's statement IQ. From Judd? A. Yea,
air; but I don't know whether, it was9 for Z250 or $200); it was ei~the
one or the other. Q. How do you know hie received that check? A.Becau-se I took it up to him. ~ Did you gee Mr. Juidd write the
check? A. Yes, sir; he ~ sir? Mr. Judd did not write thje
check; he signed it; the bookkeeper, W, P. Dixon, wrote it. Q. To
whose order was that check- made payabVle? A. John McIaCUve.
Q. Do you know what that check was for? A. It was either,;...
oir $2QO. Q. Do you know what the consideration was? Wliat
was the money paid for; did M-r. Judd owe M1r. McClave mncmey.
A. N~o; I don't think Mr. Judd did.; I did. Q. Was that check in
payment of a debt that you owed to Mr. McClave? A.!\o,;
because the check was fromn Mr. Judd. Q. What was the check,
for? A.. Well —
"1Senator O'Con nor.- Do you know what it was for? A.. Well.,
it was for -  Q. Do you k0nowv? A. No, sir; I Iou 't. kuiow.
"Senat~or Bradley..- You are ~just going to say what it was for,
and you drew back? A.. No; I don'L ki.now what it was f or.
"Q. Had Mr. Judd and Mr. Mc~lave any connection in relation
to that check or any other check? A. No, sir. Q. What did you
say to Mr. McClave whenyu handed him that oheek? A. I sad,
'Here is the money that we promised to pay you.' Q. That who
promised to pay? A. What 'we,' I think I used the word. Q.
Whom do you mean by ' we?' A. I meant myself and a man by
'the name of Cooper. Q. Who was Cooper? A. He was a man that
was connected with us in business, ins a crtain way. Q. How did
Oooper come to owe him any money'? A. I don't think Cooper
did owe 'him any mm~ey- in fact, I know he did -not. Q. Why di'd
YOU include Cooper, as here is the money ' we promised you?'I A.
Because I was indebted to Cooper, I think, more than anything
else. Q. You were indebted to Cooper? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Was
Cooper connected with Judd? -A. No, sair. Q. Where did Cooper
live? A. White House, New Jersey..   Was Ckooper an arppli.
cant to get on the police force? A. Yes, sir.0 Is that the truth4
Mr. McClave? A. No, sir; not a word of truth; If Mr. Judd eve, 
drew such a check I never had it in uq hand an~d never had anV
knowledge of It




Q.You never had Wtin your hanid, you never had any knowledge
of it? A.. No, sft.
Q. There is, you nobie, on the ~back of ths note a payment on
something or other - $200? A. Yes, sir; dated January 10; paid
an ancoumnt of $200.
Q. Who paid you that? A. Granger.,
Q. What for? A. On account of the $50notelIloaned himthe
day he got iarried~.'
Q. How long I's that after the date of the note? A. The note
was due just about the day the note was dated, ])eoemiber 19, 20
days; that would bring it about the 10th; just about the day the
note was due he came and handed me $200 on account of the note,
saying lhe would give me the bala~ue of it in the course Q( a few
days..
By Mr. Goffs.
4Whose handwriting Is that memorandum on, the back of the
note? A. The pencil mark is in mine, sir; my own handwriting.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q.You recollcct anything about the appointment of Cooper to
the police force? A.. I think I have seen the papers since Mr.
Granger's testimony; I think I sent to police headquarters and
got the papers; yes, sir; I remember them iiow, for I rm ber
seeing them yesterday; I remember the pagers.
Q. Ha~ed that paymnent- of $200 indorsed on that note anything
whatever to do with the appointment of Mr. Cooper or anybody
lise on the police force? A. Not the sihet
Q. Amd did it amount to anything more than the payment on
aceunt of the money he had borrow-ad on his wedding, day i
order to go on his honeymoon? A. That is all, sir.
Q. Now, again at pae1188, Granger swore that he knew a
man of the name of August Diix, a butcher, of 915 Eighth avenue,
4md that he Imew (oE the — d-aIt ene of a check from August Duxi
for $300, amd- Mr. Mcalave's signature upon it;o is that true,?
A. Oh, no.
Is4here awordof truthlin t?   A. Not abit- not aword;
not a particle.
4 Do you know IDix? A. I do not know hiSir.
1~4 You don't know him? A. N{o, sir.
QHe goes onto say that the check was& iveredto-you by
*dead man named Richards; when did Richards die? A. I
thnk he has been dead three or four years, sir.
'.4Hie then proceeds    A. I don't understand that he said




the check was delivered to me, did he; m3 recoleellon of I
wa he said he left it on his desk?
ehairman O(Yonnor. —He said the moey was left ion he desk.
Q. He says, page 1188i  "Q. M  M  e has wMorm here to-day
on the stand tht he never received a cheek fr  August D)ui
an you state whether that is true or untrue? A. I know t
existse e of a check from August Dux fr 300, and Mr. MoIfe
signatture on it;t i                chec; is tfa" true? 
iO, air.
Q. Did Dux ever come to yor hoae ad inquire about a be
A: No, sir; not to my knewsedge; I wat to say, somebody eman
to my house night before hotf amb d  d M1f  Dux W9 aAdl 
to come down hre
Objeeted to.
Q Wenl, we are going to have E; that is      e    ore mn
will call; put his mame down. a Q Mr. MeCliae bas worn tbes
tday that he did not know of useh a man by the name t
August Dux; is thart troe or ntrne? X   Wel, he mn  hame fo
gotten; I know that he knows the maV, beesam   I introduced
him to him mysef in his front parle. Q Do yom know w.ha
bank that chec was drawn upon? A. Ffth Avenue bank. Q
Do you know the date ot it? A M      th. I Q Do you know
the date of It? A  May tIM; I donte know the year. Q. D
you know the   mber o it? A. Two hundred and fifteen, blh
lettes   Q. (By Senair Lexow.) Tha is the nmber ao the
check? A. Ye, sir. By Mr. Goff: Q. When did you last ee
it? A.    wo weeks ago  Q. In whose possesiW? A. A man
by the name of Dorsey.   Did you ever receive any consdertion for appointing a man of the name o Dux on the poik
force? A. I don't  thin  ere saoh a ma5n t    dep
Q Tou did not?.X No, s
Q   s there any such man: in' te d   rienr       I rau
stand tere is no such man.
Q. Have you caused an exn       to tio be made for the puO
pose of aoertaiding? A Yea, sir.
Q  He then proeeds t testify, page 1191, as followN   "
What itak place beweer.  you anmd ME. MoOlve on aiD numtter?
-A  He said he   in    thifi   f  he \money had been put up
I sa, 'I am quite positive  itha t has been po up; it was p
in George Richards' hamdas    Mr. MC   ve said, 'If Dux pSt
up amy money im George Blir     hands he was a damn focl-"- 
Did you mak    any such stantemen  as thaT  A  NoA sir.
Q i there any trath in t? A. o, sr.
Q. Is tt true or false? A. I hae no               of s




a!st fatement. as thiat ak all; I am not in the habit of using
thiat kind of lanmguage; it is different from what I geii'enRJ4 use.
Q.Now, after this man Granger had married yoar daughter,
did you endeavor to-rlaunch him in anT business for the ptu~po_,e;f mkin ay income? A. Yes, sir; I tried to, aid himi in
varius wys dining the period of six years; I did every thJ-ing
that lay in my power.
Q. What did you do; please tell us? A. I p-rt him hinto bil,;-d
riess; I started a co-rnpany with, the understanding withII hiim
Uthat if 'he would give me some evidences of his desire to try a:id
do what was right, that I would turn it over to him for himuself;
a,-fter, I had kept. him there for about five or six moanths under
a sulary he seemed as if he was showing a 'disposition to
reform, and I turned the entire business over to him, and made
ai-. bill of sale to him for the consideration of a dolla~r; hne hail.n't
been in the plaice alone but, I guess, about one week wIIen
1T found out afterwards that he had mortgaged anl the macl'inery
iu my building.
Mr. Goff.-I object.
CYhairmnan O'Connor.-This is all competent, any conversation
>t-~ween Granger and this wi~tness, anything he said to youu
oyn this subject. It don't call for hearsay.
A. I discorvered he had placed a mortgage upon all of my
niacinery, and all of my building for the sum oT $250.
Q. What did you say to hima on that? A. Which he had
accepted, $150 for the mortgage, and given his note as colliateral
ae.uit fr hree months; at the expi ratit ofthe      m. h
the mortga-gee was not pWd, and the parties came to me for
payment of it; I did pay it, sir.
Q.What daid -you say to him,; what was the conver&[ttion you
hlad with him-. on tlhe subject at the time? A. Mr. Gr-alngc~~
Q.Yes? A. Re admittlled to me he hiad put thaernrca
thaere; -the oriliy thLing I could! get out of him -in co-,nnoW1~17n wVi1th1:t s, he didn't lnow why he had done it.
Q.During all t'0is3 time, th~is six years hie was ma.Irried to
-fm-r daugh1ter, didl he live in your house?  A. Yes; he 111vcrd
in my home and with my family.
Q. And were three children born to your daughter? A. Yes.
Q~. And did you support them all? A. Yes; always.
Q.You had to support them all? A. Yesir inclu.ng him.
Q. Was there any time he was able to support himself, or 'his
wif'e, or his children?  A. He gave to his wife dwcingr the
six years of their married life an aggregate aamimAnt not- vx,:oeding- 150, on three different occasions; two or three different




849


occasions he had given to her a little money to buy some trhifkets
for the children around the holidays.
Q. How long was it after he had married your daughter before
you discovered what manner of man he was, that you subsequently found him out to be? A. Well, about a month, I should
think, after their marriage; my daughter had received at the
time of her marriage a very large number of gifts in the way
of silverware, in one thing and another, quite valuable; she had
placed them in trunks and taken them down and put them in
the Garfield Safe Deposit Vaults, Twenty-third street and Sixth
avenue; after they had been there for some time she went down
one day for the purpose of getting something out of them, and
when she got there she found the trunk was gone; she came
and told me about it, and I went there and found that Granger
had signed a receipt for them and taken them away; when he
came home at night I questioned him about it; he told me he
had taken them down to Simpson's pawnshop and pawned them
for $600; I gave him the money to go down and get them and
put them back, and they are now in the Garfield Safe Deposit
Q. That was the first irregularity that you discovered? AL
Yes, sir; I then made iiquiries from himself in reference to the
Judd note; I commenced to think then that we had a very bad
man on our hands, and he admitted to me that Mr. Judd had
never signed the note; I then commenced to inquire into his
habits.
Q. ITe admitted Mr. Judd had never signed an indorsement
upon this note, which you discounted on the day of his wedding?
A, Yes, sir; he told me so himself; on the very day he was
married he came and got that about 2 o'clock in the afternoon;
le was married in the evernig.
Q. It was not dated on that day? A. I'o; it was dated back
to come due about t+l.e time he got that from his wedding trip;
he was calculating to he back i tn tedays.
Q. FPe was ounr so-n-in-law that married your daughter; what
efforts did yonu make to reform this young man and to m:t::e a
decent citizen out cf him? A. I thou-ht, Mr. icci?, — ln I
rliscovered that he was not straight, that hle was a young man;
Le had quite a number of nice traits about him.
Q. Te had some nice traits about him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were they? A. He was pleas;ant in his way, and
pleasant in his conversaiou; he had magnetism about him. that
made us apt to feel for him, and so we did, all of us; and I had
a talk with him, and told him about the errors of his way, what
they were bound to result in, and he protised me that he would
change; I foimd then he was drinking very hard, and I said
AL       107




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~ta him, 'We will have you live hore with our familY, with
wife and my children; sit at our WtAib asd eat with us, au
we will show you the difference between right and wrong
you are a yo'ung man."
Q. How old was he? 'A. He was about 23.
Q. Twenty-three, only? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he promnise to reform? A. Yes, sir; over and over
again, a hundred timeI
QI By what appears from you of tbzem letters which was
read to you yesterday, that he wan terms of great affection
toward you, tusti~ng you as his living father -  A. Up to within
two weeks ags, sir;, he med there was never a man on earth
like me.
Q And had tbat affekiorn arisen because you had done every,
thing you oould for him? A. He adnits that, sir; there is a
bund-red letters to show It
Q. Sbortly after his promise to reforno, didn't you make an
effort to get him a sotitkn  in the custom ho'ime- or in tha
post-offle? A. Yes, sir.
Q~ Tell us about that4 please, and, what you did; and what
you succeeded in doing, and what it resulted in'? A. I went on
Pootmaster Van Co~tts bond for 200,000, and I went to Lini
and asked him, as a personal favor, that he give him a position,
there; Mr. Van Cott had no knowledge of his being wrong,
but he promised me so faithfully that he would never do wrong
again, I believe I was justified in trying him. again; and I came
down town with him, and he was appointed to a position ix
the post-orface on Third avenue, and placed in charge of what
is known as the money order branch; according to his own
testimony, his own confession, signed over his own signature,
after he had been In the post-offce for four or five weeks, it
was discovered he had stolen several hundred dollars; according
to his own confession, he commenced to break open the mail
within 20 minutes after he had been put into the offie, and
stole $20 the first day; and the inspector of the post-office
inatly discovered it, and the only reason why they did not con.
vict him was, becanse they could not do it upon his own cons
fession, there being no other testimony against, him.
Q. Did you make the money good? A. Yes, sir; Mr. Van
Cott wrote me a letter, which, I gave you yesterday.
Q. That is not evidenee; you made the mcmey god? "No
Yes, sir.
Q   m And you took the yoimg mm back to your house?
Yesa, sir.
Q. And you made anle c       t Ag redahm-n him then, after
that? A.~Yef siA,




'851


Q. And the reason you did it was on your daughter's acount,
and the children's aocouit? A. On her account, and the cildren's account, and on the family's account, and his own account,
because I did think a good deal of him, notwithstanding his
ways; I wished he could be redeemed to-day for his own sake;
nobody would be more pleased that I. would.
Q. Do you recollect the next trsnsaction that you had, or the
next thing that you did looking toward helping this young
man in life? A. Yes, sir; the next transaction was when I
placed him in the Whte Lead Company, I think-or that was
before.
Q. That was before the post-office? A. Yes, sir; I thinl he
next got a pleae in Ehrich's.
Q. Ther, you got that place in Ehrich's for him? A. I don't
think I got that for him; I think he got it himself.
Q How long did he remain in Ehrich's? A. I think he was
there, altogether, three or four months
Q. Was he discharged from there? A. Yes, sir.
Q On what account? A. Stealing cloaks and other things
Q. And other things? A. Yes, sir.
Q And pawning them? A. Pawning them; yes, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. McClave, did he confess that to you; he told yon
about it, didn't he? A. Mr. Ehrich came to me about him and
told me where the goods were located, a pawnshop on Sixth
avenue, and asked if I would try and get then back, saying he
would pay the cost of the money that had been loaned upon them.
Q. Did you? A. No, sir; I did not do anything about it meantime I found out positively that he was going with a very low
class of prostitutes, and demeaning himself worse than ever,
and my daughter commenced proceedings against hfi foe a
divorce.
Q. And your daughter commened pro eedi    aga ist lhim?. Yes, sir; on statutory ground
Q. It was tried in open court here? A! Yes, sir; before Judge
Dugro.
Q. Where a divorce was granted to your daughter? A. Yes, sir.
By Senator Cantor: 
Q. When' was that?  a
By Mr. Nicoll: 
Q. When was that suit? X. Judgment was had by nquest
about two weeks ago.
Q. And what were the names mnder which he traveled wit
the different women in the hotels in whioh he put p, as appew
from that suit?
Mr. Goff.-Is this proper? I objet.




(JLF2


Oharmian O'Connor. —It is neceskary to go into those particulars.
Mr. Nicoll.-It 'i's only to show the fact about it.
Senator O'Oo~nuor.-IHe i's bad. enough if one-tenth of these
things are true.
Mr. Nicoll.- I wish to prove it in conuection with certain
documents I wish to put in here. I do mnot care much about
that If the committee do not think It Is wise, I will withdraw it
Q. Now, during these -number of years that your son-in-law lived
At your house, I want to know whether or not you paid out
mone~y for checks which he had forged, and u~pon which he had
olbtalned the money from innocent persons? A. Yes, sir; a
very large number of them.
Q.Look at the papers I now hand you, and state whether or
notL those a-re some of them, and state wha,-,t Tmoney you paid on
them, and to whom you paid them, and wic~~~~vsar.forged? A. Thie first one was on the F8ece-.nd iNcational B ank cCl
the city of N~ew York, pa,,ya*Jble to the order of Gideon Granger,
p175; sigined, George W. Rankin.
Q. eorge W. Rankin? A. Yes; indorved by Gid0eon Granger;
marked on the back of it, received July 14th, 1892; $25, on ac
count; that note was placed in the hanls, of M.Cllar~ea Thi i
body, an attorney on behalf of the Mechanics' Bank, for Molecfldn, and I paid it at Mr. Peabody's law office.
Q. Why did you pay It? A. Mr. Granger told me he had
forged it
Q. Now, take the next one? A. The next one is February 20th,
on the Riverside Bank, payable to the order of George Gringei-.,
$14.75; signed, George N. Rankin; marked for deposit to -the
err,(Iit orrPark & Tilford, February 20th, 1894.
4, Did you pay that check? A. Park & Tilford Is within a
few doors of my home.,
Q. Did you pay that? A. Yes, sir; T paid it
Q.Did he tell you he forged that check too0,? A. Yes.
By Senator Bradley:
Q.is your namnesignedlioiIt? ~LMy name innot signiedto
any of them.
Senator O'-oinnore —Do You Want to 90 through all Of them,
or simply give the numr, ber and the amuount:?
By Mir. Nicoll:
Q. You have only told us two of them? A. That Is alt
(~. How many have you got there in your hand? A. 'There Io
24) here, sir.




Q.Twenfty Al. ttd~y are different names mentioned; the~y aid
not all in the name of Rankin.
Q. Many of the names that he put on there were fictitious
(names., weren't they? A. They are all fictitious names.
Q.And the draf t and cheeks having been made out by a
frctitious drawers on banks were taken aroun~d to some person
whomu you-knew and cashed? A. Yes, sir.
Q.And then when they found the check was not good they
tame to you, and you paid it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that the history of all those transactions? A. That is
-the history of them.
Q. What do they amount to altogether? A. Twenty thousand
dollars altogether.
Q.What is the amount all told you paid on this yorng man's
account for forged paper? A. D-uring the six years in the neighborhood of $20,000.
Q. Now, Mr. McClave, why was it that during all this period
you never prosecuted this young man?
Chairman O'Connor.- Hasn't he said a dozen times he was the
husband of his daughter, and father of three children, and he did
everything he cunid to reform him.? He has given that excuse a
dozen times here..
Senator Cantor.-We have heard-of the association with low
prostitutes here.
Mr. Nicoll.-.If you think that subjectis exhausted, I won't go
on it any more.
Chairman O'C'onnoi- I don't -think you would make it any
stronger. Some men would turn on him quicker than MA
M c~lave would, and some w~ould be more lenient.
Senator Cantor.- A public officer would be different, perhaps.
Chairman O'Connor.- If it camne to- the knowledge of the district attorney he would have to do it, but undoubtedly his fatherinlwhas been screening him, and a difference of opinion exists
among different men as to the propriety of that.
Q.. Now, this young man, Granger, has testified that Capta~in
Schmittb~erger made a cheek to the amount of $3,000 to the order
of Richard Mott? A. Yes, sir; I remember -the testimony.
Q. Mr. Golf says it is $300? A. No, sir; $3,000; it was testified
$3,000.  soithmitetthetsiid$,0;ddyuvr
Q.It 'issoithmiuetahettiid 300diyoevr
receive any such check? A. No, sir.
Q. Or know of any such cheek? A. No, sir.
Mr. Nicoll.- Now, will ft be coirrenient for the committee to
-take an adjournment
Chairmn] O'Connori-Mr. Goff mV~ have some witnesses hero




lhe wantsb  swear; you can suspend furthier examination of Mr.
Meolave, if you wish? 
(Mr. Mc~lave leaves the stand.)
Mr. Nicoll. — Now, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Goff wants me to have put
on the record the amnounts of all these different forgeries which Mt
McClave has preserved out of the total amount, which he started
he had taken up at these different times.
Chairman O'Connor. —Hadn't we better take the names of the
different parties?                      4m~n;         sal
Mr. NicolL-. I will put the names and the aon;thatisal
For ingtance, there is the name of George W. Judd, $500, upon
which he paid $200. That is one. Now, there is A. 0. Shoenmaker,
IDeemnber 19, 1891, on dihe Meto~politan National Beank, for$ $2 3.205;
endorsed by the witness. There is Stephen W. Brown, on December 29,1891, om the Ninth National Bank, for $19.55. There is Chester W. Dax-tir'grer, to the order of E. A. Halpin, on the West Side
Bank, to the amount of $7.50, on D~eeember 1, 1891. There is Alex:ander Porter, on July 25, 1892, to the order of 0. G. Granger,.
$3.85;- endorsed, C. G. Granger and Gideon Granger. There is
Alexander H.L Horwell, April 23, 1892, on the Colonial Bank, to the
order of Gideon Granger, and by. him endorsed, and cashed by,
some man whose name I can not make out, $28.19. July 18, 1892,~
on the Harlem Bak William - well, we will call it MeSoniebody
-Hoagloand on the Harlem Bank, of the amount of $9t50. Homer
IL. Batterson, on the CalonWa Bank, September 15, 1892, $15.75.
George W. RRizddn, on the Irving National Bank, October 20,1892,
$17.50. George W. Rakin. April 5, I$92, on the Li.ncoln National
Bank, to the order of George 'W. Granger, $7.00. George W.
Eankian, Otbr1, 1892, to the order of Gideon Granger, $8.00.
George W. RA~ni~ July 12, 1892, tio the order of Gideon, Gmangr,p
$175. Tha* 'is the one the committee iusvetetd, George W. Rakin.I
to the otd~er of George Granger, February 20, 1894, $14.55; endorsed,
George Granger and Gideon Granger. James BEL Barker, agent,
Hffoboken, N. J., April 13, 1894, to the order ol Ainaserel, Jackson,
$7.83; endorsed, Amaresel Jack-son and Gi-deon Granger. SK W.
Bowden, to the order of George W. Goff, February 18, 1894, $11.75.
Grmnville W. Gaither & Company, December 16, 1891, on the
Bank of the Metropolis, to the order of Gidoon Granger, $410.
January A~ 1893, Jame's D. Drank & Company, to the order of
G-ideon Granger for $19.50, on the Fifth Avenue Bank~ To tbe
order of j. W. Orede, ebrnary 7,1893, $400; endorsed, I W Crede
&O(ompezky. Thluisaocheck dated Mayj9, 1892, on the~ita
Bak Eighth aveime and Thirty-fourth sftret~, payable to Rogersj,
Peet & COmpany, $2, and it is signed by Gideon Gr~Inger, and
marked no account; end~orsed, Roger, Peet & OOMPSAY,
New Ymri4 Deewmber 27, 1891. Soomon L Dewey. to
Ifhe order ed Glima    Stopper &   Bottle  Company, $.3




855


December 27, 189t FL IL Haskell & Company to the order of'
Gideon Grauger, agent, May 27, 1893, $j1.75; signed, Gideon
Granger and Sidney B. Bowman.
chairman O'Connor.- Have you any wore witueasew Iou desiae
to swear to-day, Mr. Goff?
Mr. Go~ff.- Yes.
Mrs. Mahoney called to the stai4.
Chairman O'CounorH —fAfter requesflng Mte witness to raise
ber right hand and be sworn.) She objects to being sworn.
Mrs. Mahoneyi- I am over 70 years old, and you can not maki
me swear. I am over 70 years, and I don't want to be given au
oath; I will tell the truth and nothing else.
Mr. Neoll- I don't know that I blame her.
Chairman O'Connor. —I don't know that she wants to; hil
&ie wm have to, Mr. Goff wants to ask heer a few questions.
Mrs. Mahoney.- Let him ask them,, and I will answer them.
Chafrmsn O'Connor.- (The chairman repeats the form of oath
without her raising her hand.) You are sworn to tell the tratkh,
and must tell the truth.
Mms. Maihoney.-I will tell the truth, but I won't swear to it; I
don't know anything a-bout the case; my son never paid a cent to
go on the police, because he wasn't asked to pay it.
Mr. NicolL-He never paid a cent, and never was asked to pay,
gmrs Mahoney.-No, sin;
Mr. NicolL- Don't you think you could excuse this old ladA
who refuses to take an oath?   I
Mr. Goff.- She refuses to take an oath.
Mr. NicoIL- This is a committee of the Senate of the State of
Nerw York.
Mms Moawney- I don't kmow anything about it   I aanot
read or write, and don't know ainyltinbg abo~it it
NMr. Nicoll.- They have oone to investigate, and all they want
you to do is to take tihe same oah thaUt a wit ness would talks
in a oourt of justice.
Mr. Goff.-You want to tell the trut, dou't you?
Mrs. Mahoneyi.-I do tell the trutb.
Mr. NicolL-Put up your hand and say you will tbell thie
truth.
Mrs. Mahoney.-I will not take an. oat, ans I am over 70
years old.                                              j
Senator Bradley.y —Yoiu leave the imp ression, in, our minds
that you are afraid, then.
Mrs. Mahoney.- No; I anm nt.
hii~nwman O'C0o0nou.-You will tell the truth?1
M11s Mahoneye —Yes




856


Chairman O'Connor.-All the question   that awe asked you,
t,,on will tell the ti'th?
Mrs. Ma'honey.-Yes.                    '?Tr. Nicll. —May she not have the benefit of tiLe statute,.'iich gives a witness who don't want to take the oath, and
sworn thatm she may solemnly and truly tell the truth?
Senator Bradley.-Sle lhas already said she would tell the
truth.
Chairman O'Connor.-All we desire of you here is, Mr. Goff
r-ants to ask you a few questions. We do not know what they:re, and before those questions are put to yot the law requires
-on to be sworn to tell tihe truth aibout them;; that is all there.s to it; it is our duty to swear you.
SMrs. Mahbney.- I am satisfied to tellh the ruth, but I don't
want to take an oath.
Chamaman O'Connor.-It don't make any difference whether you
re satisfied to take it or not. If yon dont we will have to do
olrjething eise; we will have to put you t in the cuotcdy of the:;ergeant-at-arms, and take yon to jail and make you testify,:nd we will hare no fooling here, and,yov mIust understand
that from the word go
Mrs. Ma'honey.-You ean not put me rrp or drownm as I am:a.tisfied to tell the truth.
Chairman O'Connor. —You will have to be sworn to testify.
Mrs. Mltciney.-I will not do tlhat. I am too long a Cathio,
'is, living in tbe Fourth ward.
Chaimr an O'Connor.-You make proof of the service-of the?roper service of a subpoenn, and we wili see whether r onot
s-e will take an oath.
Mr. Goff,-All right, sir. It is a violation of the statutes,
md we will have to have an order of arrest in order to indict
her.
Mr..Thiacll, —.<May I examine the witness in tha meantime?
Senat:or f r.li  e.-TYou can not examine thiewiltess wlien;:e is not ta de oa th.
MTr. iv'}'!. — I wtnt to examine her, not to go on record.
Chairman O'Conngr.- - Ir. Gc', on the section of the statute,
l^leh mi;a>-a i:t a cim  forc anuy vwitncvs to refuse to be swern
-;n an invc-:tiatio; that is lte section that you have got to
irosecute her on. Just arrest her, and bring her before a
poli, e magistrate?
Mr. Go. —I ask that — will you swear tire witness ihat
^ervted the subpoena in open curtn
Chanrman O'Connor.-The only way for you to do is to inakerj'pe:r proof of the service of this subpcela.,




857'


Mr. (~1T0f.-Very well, we will make lit
Chairman O'Coinor.- I do not charge any itlngr ag-aInst the
ocmmsel a~t all, but thxe People from whom shle has come f room;
Uaey know she h~as been sub~poonaed, and they heave probably
given her so'me poor advice.
Mr. Nio'l1.- I think you are mistaken about it, and this old
lady is so much. out of her element; like a lot of people of her
class of life, she has some objection to taking a farm of oath;
but I thuink if you talked with her, and show her sbi6 ought t
take her oath in the usual way, she will do it.
Mr. Golf.- la. it not a strange thing tiha~t before she was asked
a question, when she was refusing to take an oath, she s-aid her
son did not pay anything to get on the pcdioe. Some fLemale
friend was here in court that we don't know. It is very str-ange
that Phe came as a voluntary witness. It is very strangge.
Gkauirman O'Connor.- We do not want to put you -to any umnecessary trouble, and if you care to tell the truth, and nothing
but the truth, it will do no harm to take an oath. We are required to take your testimony under oath, the samte as any
other witness. We can not make an exception in your ease. By
refusting to be sworn3, you make yourself liable to be arested
and sent to jail.
Mrs. Mahoney.-. Yhu can nott send me to, jail; I am an old lady.
Ohairmnai O'Connor.- That d-on't make any difference; If yoU
are a hundred years old. you can tell the truth.
Mrs. Mahoney.- I will just tell the truth. as if I grave- an oath.
Mr. Nicoll.- You must give an oath before you testify. What
to your -objection to giving an oath?
Mrm. Mahoney. - It is not right to give an oath..
Mr. Nicoll.-Why isn't it right to give an oath?
Mrs. Mahoney.- I -never gave an oath in- my life, afnd I don'f
want to give it now.
Mr. Nicoll.-.What church dlo you belong to?
Mrs. Mahoney.- The Roman Catholic church.
Mr. Nicoll.- Is there anythinug in the Rom.an Catholic church
to teach you not tatke an oath?
Mrs. Mahoney.- I never was asked to take an oath.
Mr. Nicoll.- I mean to gay have you any con scilentious scruiples
or religious beliefs that prevents you from taking an oath?
Senator Br-adley.- You would not think it a mortal sin to take
an oath and tell the truth. Is it any sin to take an oath when
you tell the truth?
Mrs. Mahoney.- Yes.
Senator Bradley.- By -not takin anot  o   rccmntting
a   -i, ynot  llip~te oa11th, as a Catholic. Do yoiu 1:-nr;- TZn
a!.       128-T,.                  _ 


L.


-1 -g
I,11_




/                       858
are otmmitting a mortal sin by not taking the oath? You are
leaving an impression on our minds that you are guilty, and
fte only way you can get clear of that is to swear to tell the
truth.
Mrs Mahoney, —I will tell the truth, but will not be sworn;
I have no lies to telL
enator O'Connor. — Mrs Mahoney, stand up and take the oath.
Mr. Goff.-Now, gentlemen, the taking of an oath, Mr. Chairmaan and gentlemen, is a very serious thing, and it ought to be
surrounded by more solemnity than appears here. I would,
therefore, that all here, myself included, take our seats; that you
r0 one of the Senators deal with this witness. This thing of
'uddling this old lady's mind up; of course, I coacede there is
a purpose of Mr. Nicoll in doing it, it is manifest
Mr. Nicoll. —I object No. I have tried the best I know how
bo get this witness to be sworn.
Senator O'Connor.-Mrs. Mahoney, were you subpoenaed to
attend here; did they serve a subpoena to attend here? ~
Mrs. Mahoney. —  I can not hear.
' By    ialrman OCounnoa: 
Q. Do you hear what I say now? A. I hear your voice, but
An not hear what you say.
Q. What is your name? A. Mrs. Mahoney.: Q. You seem to hear that, though? A. Yes; my name is
rs. Maihimey.
Q. You have heard mie ak the questfio? A. Yes.
Q. You know you are brought here to be examined as a
witness to testify anything you may know, and to questions put
ila you? A. What is a witness for?
Q. You are here to tell what you may know about this
attter? A. What am I a witness for?
Q. Before we take your examinstion, it will be necessary for
you to swear the same as any witness? A. I am the only
woman here to be examined; it is 4 odlock, now.
Q. What do you know about 4 o'clock? A. I see the time.
Q. Do you know we adjourn at 4 o'clock? A. I don't know
you adjourn at 4 dclock.
Q. Has anybody talked to you since you were requested to
come here? A. No, sir.
Q How did you get to come here? A I was sent for.
Q After having been sent for, did anybody talk to you abot
it? A. No; they said nothing to me.
Q. Wereabouts, in New York, do yo live; what plae? A.
I live im the Seventh ward.    j. I




859


Q. What nmumblr? W. Four hundred and fwe~nfy-efghi't
Q. On what s&reet? A. Water sree t, oorner of Water an4
Q Now, are you willing to take the oath that is requfred
here before yxu are examined? A. I promise to tell the truth,
but will give no oath.                 I
Q. You know it will be necessayy for you, if you refuse to
be sworn here - A. I am over 70 years old, and I could not
be sworn.,
Q That does rot exouse you from being swrn? A.. What
bave I to be sworn for; I have done nothing out of the way.
Q I will tell you, if you don't oome here and be sworn, and
take *this oati you are liable to be punished? A. I am over
70 years old.
Q. That don't excuse you from taking an oath.? A. I will
exouse myself.
Chairman O'Connor.- Mr. Goff, I would simply make a com.
plaint before a magsisarite, and have this woman brought before
this magistrate. We might as well meet tthis issue right here.
We should not be balked in this way. Who serv4d this subpoena
-Mr. Goff.- The aaflldlsvit is hem
Chahirman O'Coumnore- Yo'u take a certilled trainsciipt of the
reporter's minutes. You make compl~alut before one of the magies
trates here in the city of New York, and have this woman ar.
rested and brought before thern for refusing to obey this subpoena, and we are going to adjourn until next Tuesday.
Mr. Gof.- Pardon me- has the stenographer the fact of hex
being called here, giving her name and residence., and her rom
fusal to be sworn?
Chairman O`Oonnor. —I  presrme bhe hae
- The Stenugm her.-   I have.
Mr. Goff- I think in order to make aertm!n aBout tbls, t
would be wise to proceed to a1mi~ncster the oath in 6te ordinary
way.
Chairman O'Oonnor.- You refuse to take the oath and be sworn
as a witness before this oommittee? - Do you refuse to take the
oatth? A. I do not know   what the  oalh is.
Chairman O'Connor.- I ask you now to stands up and take the
oath? Stand up. A. I would not be arrested; I will be out
In ten minutes more; I will tell the truth, and I won't give no
oath; they can not lock me up, because if I am locked up they,
will let me out again.
Chairman O'onnor.- Mrs. Mahoney, I ask you to stand up ald
take the oath required of a witness?
Mr. Mahomey4 — What should I take the oath for?




8(10
I.Do you decline fo take It? A. Wl~at should I take the
oath for?
Q. You decline to take the oath here and be sworn as a witness? A.. I don't know what I should take the oath - what was
Isent here for?
Q. Do you refuise to be sworn? A-. I don't want to swear; I
will tell the truth.
(Thairma~n O'Connor.- That is enough. You make the necessary
complaint, and we will see.
Mr. Nicoll.- Mr. Chairman, the statute says, "any person who
willfully refuses to be sworn,"y and ought you not toChairman O'Connor.-. I know this class of people. She kniows a.
great deal more than sh~e appears to know. She is just as willful
and maliciors as she 'is cunning. I have had a good deal of
experience with this class of people, and'know them when I set
my eyes on them. This old lady knows better, and she knows
what %he i's here for, and does not want to tell.
Mr. NiciLl- You know I tried to get her to take the oath. I
ani only suggesting to you that it would be necessary in a crimninal Prosecution that she "1willfully " refused to take the oath,
and, therefore, we ought to know whether shte h-ad any good
reason to ref use.
Chairman O'Connor.- Willful refusing is with intention to
refusing. She has no conscientious scruples; she has none on
that question; she could not have. She says she is a Catholic.
Anybody thait is a Catholic knows there is no conscientious
scruples against it
Senator Bradley.- She knows if she is a Catholic it isE a great
sin to -tell a lie it she is sworn.
Chairman O'Connu~t-.- She knows the penalty of taking an oath
and swearing falsely.
Mr. Nicoll.- I suppose the testimony must relate in somie way
or other to the police department.
Chairman O'Connor. —She stated beftore she was asked a
question, she stated she had a son on the police force and
never paid a cent for it.
Mr. 'Nicoll.-Don't you think It worth while to find out who
it Us, and all that. This old lady don't look as If s-he was tihe
possqessor of a very large fund to bribe a police commissioner.
Chairman O'Comnor.- You must let these witnesses -urderstand
tliev can -not fool the time away in this way.
Mr. Go4Y.-The stenographer will please make allidavits as to,
those minutes. 
Mrs. Mahoney. —What shall I do?
Chairman O'Clonnor.- You will be bmoght up before si pollee
miagiOtrate within 48 hours




861


lgenabor lldeye —Perl~aps before you a re 48 hours In jal
pou will change your mIn.d.
Mrs. Mahoney.,-I will take the oath.
Chairman O'Connor.-1PAiae your right hand, Mrs. Vahoney.
fYovu solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this
examination about the police department in New York city
will be the truth, and- the whole truth and nothing but the
ftruthL
Mrs Mahoney.-T will tell -the truth a-s much as I can.
Chairman O'Cannor.-We will ha-re no more dist~bance barp;
this is no laughing matter at allMr. NicolL, —nTat is all due to your frnmnems
Julia Mahoney examined by Mr. Goff:
Q. What is your full name, Mrs Mahoney? AC. My nanie b
uJ~ia Mahoney.
Q. Where do you live? A. I gave my number before.
Q.Well, Is it 51 Catherine street? A. Yes; I was living Swre
emd moved out a couple of weeks ago.
Q" Where are you livinmg now? A. I gave my address where A
lv row.
Q. Tell us again? A. No. 428, corner of Water and Market
street.I
Q. No. 428, what street is that in? A. Water s-treeet.
Q. And how many years have you lived In the Fourth ward? Ak
I have lived there in the Fourth ward since the year '52.
Q. Ts your husband living, Mrs. Mahoney? A. No, sir.
Q. And with whom do you reside, yourself? A. My son.
Q. With your son? A. Yes, sir.
Q.Any other member of your family? A. No; that is all; I a
lying with my son and daughter; my son-in-law and my own son.
Q. Is this your daughteir who has come with you to court? A
Tfliat is my daughter.
Q. And how many sons have you? A. I have three.
Q. hree sons; all of them in New York? A. Yes, sir.
Q.And what business are they in? A. They are in no business
at -all; they are laboring men.
Q. The three are laboring men? A. Yes.
Q. Where does the man- work who lives with your; the son who
lives with you, where does he work? A. He worked for his father
when he, lived.
Q. Where is he wiorking now? A. He is working no place now;
hie is at home. 
Q.Where are the other two sons working? A. There is. one
Is married up town; I don't know where does he work.
Q. Where does the other one work? A. He is living with me.,
IQ. Ltving with you? A. Yes;- a young fellow.




862
*L GIte us tBe name of your eldest son? AL Jerry
Q. And what does Jerry do? A. He is a policeman.
Q. And give us the name of your second eldest son? X. Deas
Q. Wbat does Denis do? 'A. Noth!ng; works whenever he gets
It; that is all
Q. Was Denis ever on the police force? A. No —I don't know
I couldn't tell you that; I think he was on the police some t
ago. t
Q You think he was on the polioe?. Yes.
Q. Give me the name of your other son? A. Dan
Q He is the young one? A. Yes.
Q. He lives with you? A. Yes, air; what do you want t1eli
names for.
Q. Oh merely to have the pleasure of an acquaintance with
your family? A. I don't want them to get into such a place as
this to know anybody; I never was in it
Q. I know, but your son, Jerry, do you know where he is on the
police, where is his station at present? Fourth ward.
Q In the Fourh ward? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know where the station-house is? A. I had ought
to know it, I guess; I don't live far away from it.
Q Is that Oak street? A. Yes; that is Oak street
Q. Oak Street Station-House? How long has Jerry been on
the police? A. Well, I am not a scholar; I did not put it down;
I exlect he is going on seven or eight years on It.
Q Seven or eight years? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did Denis go on the police at the same time? W. No, sir.
Q. It was after that that Denis went on the police? A. Yes;
he ain't a policeman now.
Q. Oh, no; he used to be ox the police-Denis? 2L He bgd
the grippe, and he took too many quinine pills.
Q. Too many pills? A. Yes; whatever they are; and the capl
tain said he was drinking, and he never drank in ]is life.
Q. The captain was wrong, was he, in that? A. Yes; he must
have been drunk himself.
Q. Your son was dismissed iecause he was taking quinine
pills? A. Yes; that is just what he was.
Q That was a great wrong; do you have any money in a
savings bank? A. Yes, sir; I had a little from my late husband.
Q. Did you have anything after you buried your husband? A.
I got a headstone for him too.
Q. And did you have your money in the bank after that?  l""
I had some money in the bank, and I drawed all my money out.
Q. When did you draw all your money out? A. I could nai
tell that exactly — about 12 months ago; 




863!Q7 What bank had you your account in? XA I couldn't tell
you what banks at all; I had it in the bank, and that is all.
Q. Had you your money in more than one bank? A. I have
not; no more than one bank.
Q. Was it in the Chambers Street Bank you had your money?
Al Yes.
Q And you had your money there when Jery was appointed
a policeman? A. Yes, sir; I had my money there, the few} dol
lars I had; I haCd them there 
Q. And at the time that Jerry was appointed you drew out
some money, did you not? A. No, sir; I never drew a dollar for
my son, never; he never asked me, either.
Q. I know? A. Well, you ought to know. 
Q. At the time your son Jelry was appointed did you draw any
money out of the Chambers Street Bank? A. I told you once I
did not, and that is enough; you need not cross-examine, because
I didn't do it; you are very smart, but I am just as smart as you
are.
Q. Has anyone been speaking to you, Mrs. Mahoney, about
eming here? AL I never heard anything about — I was working
for myself this morning and a gentlema come this morning and
told me to come up here; I don't know what in hell it was for,
and did not know what I was wanted for.
Q. When he gave you the paper you told hTi you did not pay
any money? A. I did nothing; the man never asked me; he did
not ask me nor did not examine me, or nothing at all, but told
me to come at 3 o'clock, so I was up here at 3 o'clock.
Q. But you said to him at that time, coming up, that your son
had never got any money from you to get on the police? A. No,
air; I never did, and he never asked me, either.
Q. What made you say before anybody asked you-     A.
~Beeaiae when I saw that paper they told me what it was for.
Q. Who told you what it was for? A. I could not tell.
Q. Who told you what this paper was for? A. My own child
told me.
Q. Yor da         A. He cam read and wite as well as
anybody here
Q. And on your way to this court, Mrs. Mahoney, your daughter
told you it was about money being paid for the appointment of
your son on the police? A. No; my daughter didn't tell me anyiring about It
Q. Your son told you? A. Yes.
Q. Your policeman? A. No, sir; don't take me until I call;
my son don't know I am here.
Q. What son was it that told you? A. I don't know; it was
a man told me, and that is all




(.Who was the man? A. I1 could not tell you.
Q.Was he a stranger? A. Yes.
Q.Did you ever see him beforO? A. Never.
Q. Where was he when he told you? A. At Catherine street
Q. Where in Catherine street? A. In the middle of the open
street; I could not tell what fla~g I was standing on.
Q.Did you speak to him first; you know you &r-e under oath?
A.I am under oath and am telling the truth.
Q. You know what it is to commit perjury, don't you? A. I
don't know what perjury is.
Q. Don't you know what it is to take a false oath; to swear,
and not tell the truth? A. I know.
Q. Don't you know that if you don't tell the truth -Al. I am
telling the truth.
Q.You would be guilty of perjury? A.. I am telling the truth.
Q.Do you know that if you told a lie here, under oath, and
If you died you would meet with punishment, wouldn't you? A.
I would as soon die any da~y.
Q. Do you not know that you would meet your.,punishment in
the world hereaf ter? A. I hope not.
Q. If you tell an untruth, won't you; if you tell a lie here? A.
I don't know now.
Q. Don't you know you are under oath, and if you don't tell
the truth, and you should die, don't you know you would go to a
place of punishment? A. Certainly.
Q.And you also know that you would be liable to go to the
State's prison, don't you? A. If I was in prison I would be out
soon again.
Senravtor Bradliey. —She has got a pull.
7L1Je Witn eass- I would be lu twenty-fou~r hiours.'
By Mr. Goff:
Q. You know this Is quite a serions thing; you amr unde~r ON*i
and you, as a Chtholic, you know you are bowid to -
Mr. Niolcol.- I do not think we ougMi to -
The Witnem- I know I am & CatholIic, and I will just stick
to thle one word, aind you know,Q. Tell us about that man that told you in the stireet? A. I
could not tellU you anything abourt that man.
Q. Did you imeet him? A. I showed him the pa~pe and asked
him to direct me as I was never in thus court before.
Q.. You showed him -thifs pinper? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You never saw him before? A. I never did.
Q. But your daughiterl was withiyou? A. My daughter was as
blind as I was.
Q. And you showed a strange man this paper? A. I did, certamn; I did'not know who he was.,




865
Q. Dd you asE him! whia it was for?, I did not; I hkaA it
was fom Albany, 1te pdoce depa      nt.
Q. 'netg abUt-tle police d      ngenet? A. Yes, sir.
4 DSd he say anythang aboet yor som? A. No; he hamded
it oret anid howed me where to oome
Q What inoide y  s ay when yoo were on the oltir, before yo
was Eswin, that you never paid any moneylt A  Because I found
it out in that pape.
By Oh@mr      (yodni~ i
Q All te cofeth  w? A. I B1 XI    tt P     J
By Mr. Gofft
Q You ead hl pape? 5! I did not rea i              I '~ns
not read or A i wie; I wtab I oumdd.
Q. Wht redi for o you? iA, I wfl tell you who rd' it br me;
I dont know whox tt  mae  iSL
Q Hiave yom found it uot i"n the paper? X I oumd ant tell
who the man, waI; I guae kim tB a per to Atmr whbre I was
to gO to
Q. How did ym know Ihiat we wne gg ob  o ask you aayt-ing
about yor so0  appointment on tie polike fore? A. Becase
the fellow told.me, the man told me it was from Albany, all
aboiti the police business, he weo telling it to another maa.
Q. WitEf bis tlat tto do with the payment of money for you
son's appointment on the police force? A. I did not-pay any,
money at al for getting on Che police, aad he didn't get it of mne
he dtd  ot pay any money to get on the force, and that is all
aibat it, now.                                          I
Which boy have yon referred to, which of them  Jety 
Denis? A. Jewry. 
Q. How about Deni; did he pay any moneyt? 7A. Th'  fa
hadn't any mnney to pay bit
Q Tle faifer was not It I  ievn they got OI tti force? 
Yea.
Q The bank-book was in your name? 5A Yes
Q. You had tte money? A. I had a few d'llars and I drew
it to bury my husbanid, bl t I gotIa daieent heid stiie
Q. Do you remen   er wben yonr son was a ppoinr? XA I
could not tell you that, sir; I am no scholar.
Q. About seren years ao you say? A About seven years
ag o
Q. As er as you can remenxAer? A. About seyea or eigt,
yeam ago; I cold'nob M1t; I won't tell a lie.  -
Ii.       109 




D. D    -ityou &aw some moaey out of the bank the? CL
I drew out all I had. 
Q. Fhat wes befor your husband died? A. I had after my
hlband died; I did not buy a graveslwfn for my husband before
he died. 
Q. When Jerry was apointed you drew Omme money oat of the
bank, didn't you? A. No, sir; I never did, not one 50 cent piece,
I never gave my son.
Q I didn't ask you that?  I didn't draw any money out of
the bank for him or anybody else.
Q. Did you draw any money out of the bank about the same
time your son was appointed on the police force? A. No, sir.
Q. About the time your son Denis was appointed? A. No,
sir; I kept it for myself to bury my husband and myself, and
I have a decent place when I die, too; I would not give it to
either sons or daughter if I had it
Q. If your son wanted money to get on the police force you
would help him, wouldn't you? A. No, sir; I would not; I was
hard up enough myself, and had to work late and early myself,
and I had a sick husband for 25 years, and I guess I couldn't
have much money.
Q. You say you closed your account in the bank? Ai I say
I got no money in the bank.
Q. You have given up your bank-book, have you? A I did,
indeed; I am sorry I did it; I would not got out for 50 cents a
day or half a day for washing; I had to give up 50 cents for
my washing to come up here, and I bet you a dollar you won't
give it to me either.
Q Now yoh have a dollar (handing witness a dollar); you
want me to give you a dollar; now, here is a dollar; I pay it
out of my own pocket for an old wash-woman; you say you
have lost a day coming here; I do not want you to lose it; I
do not want you to lose money coming up here; now, was
there anything said about your. son having to give money to
get em the polioe force? A Not as I heard of it; I never heard
my son talking about money to get on the police
Q Did anybody else speak to you? A. No person came to
me to tell me anything about my son getting on the police, or
asking me for a dollar, or 50 cents, and he never told me
nothing, and he said he never paid one penny to get on the
police.
Q. He said he did not have to pay one penny piece? A. Yes
Q. When did he say that? A. Always.
Q. Did you ask him? A. Yes.
Q. When did you ask him? A. I asked him did he pay at'itng, and he said, no. 




86Ta.
( Why did you ask him? A. Because I heard people say
they might pay something to get on.
Q. You used to hear people talk that men had to pay to get
on the police? A. I guess you are a lawyer, and you are too
smart, and you won't get any words out of me, except what
I am speaking,
Q. You will tell the truth? A. I will tell the truth; I am
telling the truth.
Q. And, of course, you heard a great many people say that?
A. You could hear it, too.
Q. Certainly, I have heard it; we all heard it, and you have
heard it? A. I am older than you, I think.
Q After you heard that, you asked your son if he had toi
pay anything to get on the police? A. Yes, sir; and he tog!
me no, he never paid a penny, and never was asked a pennyj
to go on the police.
Q. He was never asked for a penny? A. No, sir.
Q4 Did you ask Dennis, your son, at that time? A My soDennis wasntt on then.
Q. Afterwards, when he went on? A. He hadn't it to give.
Q. ])id you ask him whether he had to pay to get on? A.
I did not ask him any questions at all; when I see the first
fellow got on for nothing, he was well known to get as well
as the first.
Q. As well as the eldest son? A. Yes.
Q. Wasn't you ready to put up a little money for your son'
if he needed, to go on the police? A. Excuse me, I was noi;!
I had no money to spare it to give him, and if I had I would
keep It for myself and my old maa; I would not give him ae
dollar, if I had it
Q. Don't you know you drew a little money from the bank at
that time? A. No, sir; I never did.
Q. Was your son Jerry married at the time? A. He never
asked me a single penny piece; I told you that before and will
stick to it
Mr. Nicoll. — on't you think this has gone far enough?
Q Didn't your husband ask you for money for that man? H,
No, sir; nor for his own business; I would give him money to get
a dinner and nothing else.
Q. Now, Mrs Mahoney, you know that what you say is under
oath? A. I am telling the truth.
Q. Will you say under oath, under your oonscience, that you
know that you never gave a dollar to any person, to any person,
for your son to get on the police? A. I never gave a dollar out
f, my two hands to anybody else, out of my hands, to go on tbl
police, to my son, and he never paid nothing to get on.




6-,~ ~ ~  ~   ~~6
r4 T[o any person? A. To any person; I never did
Q. Ari-d you did not do that for 'your son Deunns either? IA..
Ifo, sir; to either one of them.
Q.Did you borrow any money f or them to get on the police?
&. Noair; I never borrowed nothing of anybody; but I am boriwin~g myself, because I have no husband -now.
Q. I feel ~wry for you that you have to borrow. A. Thank you,
mhi; ra sons, they never got nothing-; he got on the police and
dfidn't pay nothing for It
Q. Hfe io suing the police department, now, isn't he, to get
bm&k again? A. I eouldn't tell that, sir; I don't recollect nothing
about it; thzey talk amxwag themnselves~ and I am deaf and can
not hear them; and my hearin has Improved since I came hiere.
9. Your hearing has improved since you came heret '.i Yes,
Q.Havyo heard your son Jerry talk about this Senate iiri'cl
tigating commitee? A. No, sir; I never see my son;~ he lives up
town and don-t see me at all.
9.Have you heard your son Dennis tak about it? A. N, r
I never heard him, either, talking about It until to-day t 3
telling him-.
Q. You -bod Mim to-day? A.. I told him to-day when 3, 4SILONwci
him the paper.
9. Was he the man that you met in Catharine streetY A~ We
don't live in Catharijie street; he was in his own house y#heu 3
showed him that.
9.You showed your son Dennis this subpoena after ywuoV got,
A. I ishowed it to him because he can read.
Q, Dfd Dennis tell you that 'it was to ask you whethier -You
lpwaw you had given him money to go on the police foree? A,
He didn't ask me' anything at all; be told me it was about Albeeny.
9. Didn't he tell you it was about the police force? A. He
told me It was about the police force.
9. Thn' hje tell you it was about his pyng  avae to geat Ow~.
tbe police? A. No, sir, he did not tellme
9. Did you aak him? A. No, sir.
Q.Did you talk about it? A. No, sir
Q. Not awcrd abomt it? A. None.         -
9Didba  xea&kyouwwhatthe eyWwnted you Hre fO1     W NAo"
but I a~ed him what -they wanted me for.
9. And what did he say? A. He said he did not know.
Q.Ile said he didnot know? A.-No.
Q. Did he tell you it was something about the pOliC*? W
Well, that is the fifth or sixth time,.
Mr. Nje LThat Is right.




869
'       Tta is t rune; but you linow an oM lady iike you, your mnia
ery might fail you? A. Just what I said once I will say againd
and I will tell it you, and you can not catch me in a lie.
Q. I don't want to catch you in a lie, but want to get the fra
from you? A. I am telling the truth.
Q You swear under oath you never drew money out df ei
bank? A. Not for my children.
Q Or for anyone else? A. No, sir; I never drewv it
Q. For the purposes of getting either of yor sons cm
polce? A. No, sir; I never did.
Mr. Goff.-That is all.
Crirman O'Connor.-That is an. You     [nfat want to orew 
examine?
Mr. Nieoll.-No, sir; I should think not
Ohainnan O'Oonnor — Any other witnesses, Mr. Goff?
Mr. Goff.- Oome here, madam. 
Mr M.hoaey —I will take a glass of beer when I get out.
Mr. Goffl —Daughter (motioning to the one who accompanied
ihe preceding witness), I want you here, pleaseq just takeltd
stand.
Ellen Burt —I don't know anything about it
Ohairman O'Connor.-What is this witness name?
Mr. Goff —It is a daughter. What is your name? j
The Witness.-Ellen Burt
Mr. Goff.-You cam be sworn sitting dowm,
The Witness.-I do not want to wear to anyfIng. I just
oame as guardian over her, that is all
Mr. Goff.-I only want to ask you one or two questions.
OhairmanU O'Cmonor.-Mrs. Burt you solemnly swear that the
teetimony you shal give, in this police examination, shall be the
trafi, the whle truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
Gold.,    f
Ellen Burt swo r         wns for b    Stete   stfied a
' follows:
Dizht exm    tion by Mr. Goft
The Witnesa-I do not come here as t wifness or anyffilng
ele.                    - 
Mr. Goff.-You are under oath now.
Q Mrs. Burt, was you present when tlhi snpoena. was seved?
Mrs. Mahoney.-(OomIng towards the wiamws.) You don't
know aanyting.
Q. Now, Mrs. BuTn  you know you ar undera oa   doa't y?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are the daughter of Mrs. Mahoney? A. Yes.




870 
Q. re yotln ving with h, Mrs. Bturt?     Yes, sir; on thL
aame flor.,,
Q. That is you live in a seprate h oshold? A. Yes, ir; in
separate apartments 
Q. Were you with your moisher when she was served with tis
ubpoena? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you say any4bing to your mother when she was served
with thia sbpoeni? A. No, sir; I did not; a gentleman thal
birougtt us told us he lid not know what it was for, and left it
there.                       I 
Q. Did you see yor broiher Dennis shorty after that? A.
No, sir; I did not, I went out for my business, out to the store
after that came; after that caie I went out to the store for my
dhmer errands
Q. Did you see your brother Dennis talking to your mother?
A No, sir; I did not
Q. Was he talking to your mother to your knowledge? A.
No, sir; not as I seem 
Q. Did you see your brotthr Denmis at all in the day? Ax
see him this morning.
Q. Did you see him since this paper was served? A No, sr;
I have not.
Q. When you returned from your dinner errands, did you see
your broter Dennis in the house? A. No, sir.
Q. And then did you start out with your mother? A. Yesl
the gentleman told us to be here at three o'clocl.
Q. And no talk with Dennis since this paper was served? A
1o, sir.
Q. Nor with Jerry?  A. No, sir.
Q. Or with any one else? A No, sir.b
Q. Did you hear any one speak to your moTher about it? 
No, ir; I have seen some gentleman taking to my mother as
I was going along, but I passed on.
Q. You passed on? A. Yes.
Mlr. Goff.-That is alL
Chairman O'onnor.-That is all. 'Any other witnesses, Mr.
Goff?
Mr. Goff.-I will just inquire a moment. Officer Shea.
Patrick V. Shea, called as a witnes on 'behal of the Staite
beiig duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Goff:
Q You are the officer that Mr. Webb referred to this morning,
in his testimony? A Yes, sir.
Q. You were in the employ of te American Express Ooampany
were you? A. Yes, sir.




871
'Q. Xin when did you leave tiua employ? A. I left It previous
to my appointment on fle police.
Q How slo-tly before your appoiutmeat on toe police? 
Well, should say within a week or two.
Q. Within a week or two? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were receiving wages in the express company? L.
I was.
QO How much wages were yot receiving?      Fifty dollars
a month.
Q. How long had you been in flat companyl A. I upp0ose
about four years steady.
Q Are you a married man? A. No, sir; I am single.
Q You are single? A. Yes, sir.                   J
Q. Did you live with your parents? A. I did.
Q. Father and mother? A. Father and mother.
Q. Anyone else? A. One of my brothers; yes, 
Q And did your father work? A. No; he did not
Q Not at all? A. No, sir.
Q. Did your brother work? A. My brother is a policeman.
Q. Did your brother live with you? A. He did.
Q. And how long had the brother been a policeman? A.
Well, as near as I can recollect, I suppose about seven years.
Q About seven years; is he married? A. No; but he is
about to be.
Q. But he was not at that time; anyway when you were
appointed? A. No, sir..n
By Senator Bradley 
IQ He is not yet? A. No; he h not yet
By Mr. Goff:
Q And between your brother and yourself you suppoite
your father and mother? A. Yes.
Q. You all contributed to the support of the houasehd? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And the four of you lived there together? A. We did.
Q. Where did you live? A. Riverdale, New York city.
Q. That is up on the Hudson? A. Yes, sir; Twenty-fourth
ward.
Q. You made an application to be appointed a policeman;
to whom did you make the application, Mr. Shea? A. To Mr.
McClave.
Q. To Mr. McClave? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know Mr. McClave? A. No, sir; I had never se
the gentleman before.




872
Q. WhEo advise you to make the applicMon to Mr. McClave?
A. Well, it was my own judgment
Q. How did you come to select Mr. McClave out from the
other commissioners? A. Mr. McClave, being a man ot laIge
business, I tiought he 'would be more acquainted with Mr.
Webb than any of the other gentlemen in the board.
Q. And that was the only motive you had in selecting Mr.
McOlave? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You selected Mr. McClave as the oemiissioner to apply
to before you consulted anybody else? A What do you mean
by consulting anybody else?
Q. You applied to him without consulting anybody else? A.
Applied to Mr. Webb.
Q. Did you apply to Mr. McClave? A. No; no; not until I
got Mr. Webb's letter of recommendation. 
Q. That is what I meant? A. Yes.
Q. You went to Mr. Webb first? A. I did.
Q. Did you, ask if Mr.. Webb knew the comm lsioners? 
Yes.
Q. And which commissioner he knew? A. He said he thought
he knew Mr. McClave better than any of them.
Q. It was because he said he knew Mr. McClave that you
asked him for a letter to Mr. McClave? A. If he had said he
knew any of the other commissioners better I would have
asked him for a letter to them.
Q. It is because he said he knew Mr. McClave better that
you asked the letter for him? A. Yes.
Q. You got the letter? A. I did.
Q. Did you present it to Mr. McOlave in person? A. I did.
Q. Do you remember when that was? A. Well, I can not
rember the exact day.
Q. As near as you can? A. I think it was sometime in
November, 1892.
Q. Did you sign then a formal application for appointment?
IA I did.
Q. And you went before the sukgeons, I presume? AL Yes, sir.
Q. And was ajppointed? A. And was appointed.
Q. And then went before the civil service commissioners? A,
Yes, sir. 
Q. When did you get a report or information that you were on
the eligible list? A. Well, I surppose it must have been two
months after the last civil service examination.
Q. When was the civil service examination; after you made
yoTu application or after you passed the surgeons a?   Aa near
as I can remember -- I wouldn't be positive.




' 873


Q. No; as near as you can? A. March was the physical
exanmmation; that xas a kind of athletic examination that is
held in Cooper Union; and the follwin April, 29th, I tik'ni was
what we call a metal examination; that was held in New York
college. 
Q. Those were all the exanatoas you pased, the physical
and the  ental examinaltion; is that so? A. Yes sir.
Q. And yo passed the ipysical examinatio  n.pril? A. In
April. 
Q. Of 1893? A. No; Mahrol, 1893.     ]
Q. Aad the other examaation in April, 1893? A. Yea 
Q. When dd you get yckrr notice that you were on the eligible
ist? A. I should say a obuple of mcith after; probably three;
I am not sure.                         I
Q. Did you become impatient at any delay in getting your
appoitmnent? A. No, sir; I wasn't any way impatient; I thought
from the answer that Mr. McClave had written to Mr. Webb
that my appointment was a thing that was certain.
Q. It was all right? A. Wlhih, of course, it was.
Q. Had you seen Mr. Webb frequently in the meantime? A.
I had probably seen him once, about three weeks before I was
appointed.
Q. Before you were appointed? A. Yes.
Q. Up to the time you saw him, the two weeks before you
were appointed, had you seen him froom tWe time you got the
letter from him? A. Oh, yes. 
Q. Frequently? A No; I supose not moe than once, prolb
ably.
Q. Did you go and see him about yoa  arppointment? A. I
did; abou a week or two before I was appointe&
Q. I mefn before that; between the time that you went to see
him 0o weak Wore your appointment and the time you got the
letter from Commisioner McOlave, did you see Mr. Webb? A
I seen h!m after I pased the doctors; that is albot a week after
he gave me the letter to Mr. Molave; he told me to come and
td1l him, and I told him I had passed he doetol
Q. Did yeou see him then from the time you told nim ynu had
passed the doctorT up to a week or two before yoar appointment?
A. Yes, sir; I had seen him; not on aniy busiane  relative to the
police department, though, but on prvlate bnsiness of my own.. Were you in bsiness rela-toii w   Mr. Webb? A. Well,
I bad a ort of traaction with him; T don't supose it coitd be
called businesa
Q. Wha   was the nature of that tinsaoti'     ~   wTe   1
wanted to borrow some money of him.                    J
L        11@                       -— 1-0




Q When did you borrow the money? IX I don't know exactly
when I borrowed it, but I know it was-I supose I had been
atpoited about a month or so after; I would not be positive on
that point, however.                I
Q. Didn't you borrow the money a week or ten days before
your apfpointment? A. No, sir.
Q. How long befre the appoiotmnene did yo o borow th
money? A. I caa't exactly say.              --
Q. You say two weeks? A. More than that.,
Q. Thr  weeks? A. More thin that          - 
Q. Four weeks? A Probably our or uf sweeks; I would not
be,pstive. 
Q. You say around four weeks?     Between four and six
weeks.
Q Do you remember the date of the appointment? A. I
turned out for probation on the aight of the 2d of October, D
think, at 6 o'clock roll-call, in the Nineteenth precinct
Q The night of what, October? A. The 2d; I would not b1
positive, but that is as near as I can recollect now.
Q. And as near as you can recollect? A. Yes. 
Q. That was 1893, was it? A. Yes, 1893; yes, sir.' ---- -
Q. Now, this transaction you had with Mr. Webb; what was
that transaction? A. That was relative to money matters that
I needed.
Q. What did you need? A. I needed between $200 and $300.
Q. What for? A For private use; for my own business, and
they wanted some money home in the house; and being about
the best friend I had, or have to-day, I thought he would help!
me out of a little trouble.
Q. Have you talked with anyone before coming into this court?
A. No; I hadn't time to see anybody; the subpoena was served
so short a time ago.
Q. Did you hear Mr. Web's testimony in court? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You wanted this money from him for business purposes 
Mr. Webb testified he gave you $300; that was in check, wasnt
it? A. I think it was in bills.
Q. Are you sure? A. Yes; as near as I can recollect, it was in
bills. 
Q. Three hundred dollars in bills; do you remember the
denominations? A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. Now, Officer Shea, isn't it a fact Mr. Webb gave you a checl
on the Lincoln Bank for that amount? A. I received no ched
out of Mr. Webb's hands.
Q. Did anyone else give you a check by order of MR Webbt
A No; I received no check from anyone.




875
Q. Did Mr. Webb's secretary give you a check? A. No, sir;
I received no check from anyone.
Q. Who gave you the money? A. I received $300 from Mr.
Webb's clerk.                                         I
Q You asked for the money from Mr. Webb? A. I did.
Q. Dfd you tell Mr. Webb the nature of the business you
wanted to use the money for? A. I told him I was in a Itttld
trouble and needed some money, and I said, you being a friend of
ihine, I thought you were about the best one to ask of.
Q. Did you tell him the nature of the trouble you Waere in?
A. I told him about it.
Q. What did you tell him? A. I told him my Upenses were
a little heavy, and we needed some money in the house.
Q. How were your expenses more than fer years before that?
A. I was about to go on the police.
Q. What expense would that cost? A. Ihat would cost me
about $70 in the outset for uniform.
Q. That would cost $70 from the $300; that would leave $230?
A. That is right
Q. What is the necessity for the other monoy? A. It is absolutely necessary that I should go into my private accounts here?
Chairman O'Connor.- Yes; go on.
Mr. Goff.-It is necessary you answer these questions&. A I
owed my brother John $100.
Q. You owed your brother John, the policeman, $100; when
did you borrow it from him? A. I borrowed it in different sums.
Q When; give me some date? A. I suppose within a year
or two, probably.
Q. What was the largest sum you borrowed from your brother?
A. Twenty-five dollars at the time.
Q. That was four times? A. Yes.
Q. What did you do with that money? A. Well, I hadQ. Look up at the Senators and don't look down at your shoe&
L Vhat did I do with the money?
Q Yes; what did you do with the money that you got fromi
him? A. I spent it in different ways; I went around and I hlad
a good time.
Q. Did you ever borrow money before, before you commenced
to borrow this $100? A. Yes, sir; I was always welcome to any
money.
Q. You were always borrowing from him, and yet you were
getting $50 a month from the express company? A. That is
right. And borrowed from your brother all the time? AL Not all
the time; four times.
Q. You owed your brother $100? A. Yes, sir.




Q. And you borrowed that $100 in only four $25 transactions?
1.. I can not say $25 at a time; it was $100.
Q. Give us when you borrowed the irst $25 and when the bali
ance? A. I can not give you that.
Q As near as you ean?
By Chairman O~3-onnort
Q. Was not your brother John more I1able to- wait an you thani
Mr. Webb to pay your brother? (No answer.)
By Mr. Gof:
Q. Isn't It a little eifiandinary you shomid go to Mr. Webb
to pay yomr brother living in tire saime family? A. I wanted
other momey fmr eUher purposes besides; this was not the brother
that N liviig wiMi me, it was a married man.
Q What xmarried man? A. My brother John is a married
Q. He Is a polioenian, isn't he? A. W~el, the~y are bot~h
poloicemen.
Q. Now, which of them did you borrow the money from? A..
John.
Q. He does not live with you? A. No, sir; h 'is married
Q. And has his own family to support? A. Ye.
Q. Living by himself? A. Yes, sir.
q And within a year you say you borrowed $100 of your
brother John? A. I do't say It was within a year; I will not
be positive.
Q. How long had the $100 been running? A. We will say
within two years.
Q You say it was? A. I will say within two years.
Q   Wjithin two years you have borrowed a $100 from time to
time, from your brother John? A. Yes, sir.
Q How long did you owe your brotlier Join, when you went
to Mr. Webb, to ask a letter to Commisskvner McClsave? A. I
owed him a $100.
Q. You owed him a $100 then? A. Yes, sir.
q Was he pressing for payment? A. No, but he told me he
would like to have the money when I cuold get it for him.
'W Why didn't you ask Mr. Webb for the $100 when you went.tb get the letter for McOlave? A. My brother did not want
$100 at that time, and I did not want it at that time, but I
wanted It afterwards.
Q. you say you owed your brother John $100 when you first
wenz to Webb for an lW'oduoto U to MEOreW? A. Yes, mirn
*jaat is A4ght




. Di yon wMe aiyby elseu au     mow,  I.B  4 NOi I -did
not
Q. At that time? lA. Nx I did not
Q. Why, to use the charmaan's quepstwa, if yo  owed your
brotber John in 1892, when you went to Mr. Webb to get a letter
of imtrxduotioi   from Mr. Mcdawe why didFt you borrow the
$100 of Webb then. to pay your brother Jotan? A. My brother
JAhn did not ask me for the money at that time,
Q Did you borrow anyi money from yw brotther John in the
meantime, from the time you made your appHcatik    for the
polie force, until you got the money frou  Mr. Webb? A. I
would not be postive aboum tht; I might have, and might not.
Q. Yuh adbettr be posite abo      it? A. How  an I be poi
tive about it                                       i
Q. Will you swemr yo did owme him any me me  ey thaa   e
$100? A. Nol  I will not.
Q. Did you owe anybody else a ny m e =-y ta    1*0? t
Did I owe anybody ese?                       i
Q. Yes. A. Noit atthEt tlm,.  I 
Q. Did you owe anybody else any moedy urian  ta rime, the
time you made tie &ppioatiion, until you {ot St  appolntmet?
A. Yes, sr; I owed  )0 on my boka to t   Amerem Rpres
Oompany. 
Q. Wen did yau owe that? A. I owad that wiia d-well,
I suppose wita7l two mnas.
Q. W   t? A. Wlfhi two mnoths prelTXPW to mtht appo tbt
ment                                        s 4
Q. How d    you eome to owe te expre cBa         $? A.
I was Mrppoed to ea  up every nightt, and the agent-we nade
two pxmets i,e moh& ftM    m rtmt of eb e t the U6 Broaidway
eio, tft in the uaa offoem and the aSed aad I     In-ld -I
aodx aer    ryw well..                          -..
Q. I dont Oa r about you  tder
Mt. NloIL-Let iia witea hbve a fair M dar a
Mr. Goff.-No, he is hlarig a fair   aa
Mr. NloWl.-You raeg im       t   m al the tim.'
I requeb* the witi  hare aa opprtty to m     e an ar
C4ai~r~mal  OonXiuv-Y     give hBK an oprta ity  t nmu
a   urwer., 
Q. Go on and iff er?       H 
Mr. GofY.-Hie y     mo   Y Nbh  yH  feftn at ew  pw   a
to make your addrem?                '         -
Mr. oiol-TYes;  t        B     hMl         IL ^
Mr. GOt. —St dOWl         - - 
Mr MIrL —k 69w,




878
Charman O'acnnor-Whsi is the qnestkon Mr. Goff?
Mr. Goff.-The question was how he came to owe the American
Express Company $60.
Ohairmamn (Coomor.-Yea.
Mr. GofT.-Aid the witnes was proceeding to say tat he and
(he agent umderstood eadch ther very well. I objected to his
stating what he and the ageant undestood, and Mr. Nioll in
conformity with his irretrievable oonduct and habit in making
objectios to witness ast the critical point so as to give the
witness a chance to take his breath, put up an objection.
(hairman O'onnor.-You can get your answer and come to
the point, and he can make his objection,
Mr. Nicoll.-You were reading the newspaper and lost the
thread of the question.
(Iiaimain O'Connor.- No, Mr. Nicoll; you answer that question
without any intimation from counsel.
Q. How did you owe the express company $60? A. I was
supposed to cash up every night, you understand
Q. Let us see.
tir. NiIL-o-Let us see. le is not direted to answer.
By Ohairman O'Co^nnor
I Q Let us not have any interference  You were sepposed to
cash up as agent of th  express company? A. As express
drivern
Q. On express cwages for parcels yao  dielivred during the
day? A. Yes, sir.
Q And you were               1        pped to deliver te mno m ey mght?
[. Yes, sir.,Q. And that was our duty? A; Yeai
By Mr. Goff:,   Well, go on. 1. Well, uirng   e day wber  I w.ld be
going my romuds I would have a parel for some pesm  that
would be probably $1, or $150 clhages on it, and they would say,
' Let it go until you omne next time, and I suppoee I would not
get it if they didn't have the money, and in that way I world
be behind; but, of course, the money woud come back to me.
Q. But toward the end of the mOmtih you got behind in your
aopnuints? A Yes. 
Q. But you told tie comsnittee it was your duty to trn in the
money you received for every parcel every night? A. Yes, si-.
Q. Well, you did not,  de oeri cdraatances? A. No,
icause -       - 




m
Q. Wel, at the end ae the manoo  yoa woM  ie shown t6 be
so much indebted for parels you had delivered? A. Yes, air.
Q. And the agent there permitted you to db that? A  e et
Q. Wihat is his name? A. John S Algeo
Q. John S. - wit is the name, please? A. Algea
Q. Spell it, please? A. A-l-g-e-o
Q And the address? A. Riverdale, New York city.
Q. Where is the offie he is employed at? A. Piverdaie.
Q. Oh, he is at Riverdale? A. Yea
Q. Well, at the end of the nmauht you and the aeat tti
up, didnt you? A; Yes, sir.                     --
Q. Every, month? A. Every n mnth. 
Q. You pae in all you owedl  A All I eowe
Q. Every nmoth? A. Yes
Q. How maoh did yo o we ia &e mmtiho.d Aug     1893? T
I don't remember. 
Q. Did yu owe any? A. I    Wt nt i hve; I ne er kept no
book&
Q. W      i swear Whem flist you did or did mot owe ie ere
comeniy amy nmiey for the moth io Aiogwt, 1893? A I wmld
not swear.
Q. Win y   sw aweao- rA to te =onth of Jyj, 189ISM.l I wtIld
Q. Will you swear ae to the mo  A cie         1893? '
Yes, I will swear to Septeber. 
Q. How mudh did y%= owe Ia Setembesr   AL About $6, as
W    a- I can lreoileea 
Q And you paid thit imoney in Septembw? A, Yes, siB
Q.How much did you owe I             189?t A. EIghtir
lmdreld mad niety-th:re?
Ye&    A. I did mot oy isangy~n
Q. When did you resiga fimn the o            a3. W, e S   tBe
b thie l.tter prt of Septeiuber; very ear the end.
Q. Some time in the latter part of September? A. Yel, ab.
Q. So when you resigned from tike oompany in September ya
paid up everything as an boneat mea shuld do? A. Yes
Q. And yoi did not owe anything to the company? A. Noe
Q. When did you borrow thi money from Mr. Webb? X
Well, between four and six weeks previous to my appointment
Q. When were youn awponted? A. October 2, 1893.
Q Between four amd sfx weeks? A. Yes, sWr.
Q. You didn't resign from the express ootpany mutil ym Wt
pretty sure oaf y  appmdneuient on the polloe ftoee   A. YeL... -   -.  - - - - ^. -.,.   __ g... -




Q. And it was after you resiged from the express compaLy
that you called to see Mr. Webb? A. No; before that
Q. Haven't you resgned fr    tbe express oauanXay?  ee,
ir. 
Q. You caed to aee Mr. Webb? A. Yae
Q. That was- in what month did you oatl to see M rWebb? 
September.
Q. In the mouet of Setewbert? A. Yea
Q. Did you resign immediately after you saw Mr. WeUb, or at
fie end of the momth? A. I dd not resign until I w-as called
down to go before the doctos at the police beadquarters the
last time.
Q. The last time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then you did not resign until after you had een Mr. Webb;
ts that it? A. Until after I had seen him the last time; yes, sir.
Q But you have testified that you saw Mr. Webb a week or
10 days before your appointment? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, you were appointed on October 2d, and that would
show you saw Mr. Webb about the middle of September or
the latter part of September? A. Yes, about a week- beore.
Q. Now, you did not resign until the end of the month? A.
Well, the end, or very near it
Q So that you ould settle up your accountsl epteniber 30th?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the indebtedness you owed the company show thenm
selves on the book? A. Upon the compaiy's book?
Q. Yes? A. he agent carried that acont for him in his
own private account
QO He carried it for ya in yor own private aacount    A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Did he keep a book? A What ked of a book?
Q. Any book; his priate acouat, ya say? A I suppose
he did.
Q. Did you ever see one? S N., sair not   slde the the  mpany's book.
Q. Did you keep an accot of how mach you owed? A.
No; I kept an ancount of how nuoh I wan owed.
Q. The company owed you $50 at the ead of September,
didn't it? A. Yes sir.
Q. And you owed the company $O, is that it? A. Yes.
Q. That would leave you $10 in debt to the compan, wouldn't
it? A. Yes.
Q Was that the way it was fixed up? A. That he would
keep my salary?
Q. Yes? A. No; I paid him the $60.




881
Q. You paid him when you got the salary? A. NO; T had
the money.
Q. All you had to pay him above the salary was ROT A.
Yea; but I had other uses for my salary.
Q. How did it oome months before when you had no money;
how did you get along? A. I was not short every month.
Q. You were more generalLy short duritng the month of
SeFptember, tpan  any premeding month? A. Yecr; it was the
heaviest mentl of the summer's business.
Q. Will It show upono the books thfe amozmt of money that
yau were short? A. Not on the comipamy's books.
Q. Let us see; the company's rules required a return tD be
made in cash for -all parcels sent oat? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does it not? A. Yes.
Q. And Btwi agent who entered the amount, when he sends
you out with the parcel, would have to enter the amount? A.
Yes.
Q. Aid that was charged to you? A. Yes, air.
Q. And when you brought back. the amount you paid it in,
you were credited with the amount? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And if you did not pay it in, it was not checked off? A.
No; I suppose not; I don't know.
Q. So it appears on the company's boola, the amount of money
you were indebted to the company during that month? A. No;
it dout appear on that coimpany's book.
Q. Do you mean to tell this coumittee that that agenmd was
guilty of a crime of allowlr. yea to continue in the emnproy of
the company, and not deliter the money you were supposed
to coll-ect? A. ThatQ. That that agent4 Mr. Algeo, was guilt of the crbne of
permitting you to continue in the employ of -the company without showing the amaount of money you were charged with; do
you mean to tell the Senators that? A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. Explain to the Senators, if you can, how it wvas that the
agent permitted yolu. to take parcels out and deliver them without returnrng the money for the express charges on these
parcels? A. He made a return the 15th, and t~he 1st of ea-ch
month.,
Q. The lot and the 15th? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much were you indebted on the 15th of September
after he made a return? A. I don't know.
Q. Were you indebted amything? A. I may have been.
Q. And will you swear you were or were not? A. I don't
remember.
JF~ ~lii




882


Q. Were you indebted anything on the 3d of Septembc when
you made your return? A. Yes, sir; I was indebted $60.
Q So, from the 15th of September to the 30th of September,
you were indebted $60 for a number of parcels delivered by you?
A. For everything delivered and shipped and forwarded and
eceived.
Q. Everything you were charged to do? A. Yes, ir.
Chairman O'Connor. —H ow long would it take to examine t
witness? I want to take the train.
Mi. Nicol. —That is what I want to know.
Mr. Goff.-  hat is all right Th  is an offieat ad so I sanpje
this witness. 
Chairman O'Counm.-You can get hia?
M   Goff.-Yes.                     I
Chaiman OSConnor. —h it is not important o elose io-ng1t
I want to oatch a train. We want to inform every witness tha,
has been subpoenaed that they want to be on hand promptly ad
bJlLpast 10 o'lok on Tfesday moring.
~Adj.rn  to.TueAdaK May 29, 1894 at 10:30.
iProeedns aot the seventeeth meeting ofe  e oemm ttee 
the city of New Yor Tiesday, May 29, 189  at 10 a m.
Present- Senators e   Aw, Saxto, anto  Bradiey, O'Oonnm
and Robertson.
Counsel on both sides present.     C
Chairman Lexow.- The committee unannmously Instrunted te
sergeant-at-arms to take such proceedings under the Penal Oode
as may be advised by counsel for the willful disobedience bM
Gideon Granger of the subpoena of the committee and his failure
to attend the hearings of the committee thereunder.
Mr. Nicoll.-Before taking up the examination of witnesses,
I have some information to impart to the committee in reference
td the witness Granger, which will be interesting and perhaps
useful. The committee recalls the circumstances under which
the witness Granger was examined. Mr. McClave was upon the
witness stand about half-past 3 o'clock at the point reached i,
the afternoon, when counsel stated he had an important witness,
who must be immediately examined, and requested the suspension of Mr. McCave's examination for that purpose. I don't
know who the witness was. I presume the committee did not,
but the request of counsel was granted, and the witness Granger
appeared upon the stand and gave his testimony, and after he




883
had proceeded fo a point where he made certain hisInuationos
against Mr. Mc~lave, an adjournment was taken and A~ was not
prited to examine him. 17stated then to the committee that
h ad in may possession the means of exposing to the committee
The character of this witness; and the chairman of the commlittee
Intimate~l to me, and has pince intimated that by doing~ so I ha~d
alarmed the witness; but a moment's reflection will inform the
committee that that was not possible. Mr. Granger knew, of
course, of the existence of all the proofs against him before he
went on the witness-stand. Hie knew ~he had been engaged for
years in the passing of checks, and that Mr. McClave haA beenengaged in taking them up, and that he had in his possession
Oie evidence upon which he could commence action against hira
at any time.
Mr. Goff.- Wihat point is counsel addressing himself to; im this
in review?
Mr. NicolL.-Not at all; you will see whben I come to the pointa.
Chairman Loexow.- I would not state facts that are within the
knowledge of the committee, because those are facts that are
~within the knowledge of ourselves.
Mr. Nicoll'.- That leads up to what has transpired since the
adjouirnment of the committee. I was going to say the witness
knew all these facts, and he knew and received the forbearance
of Mr. MeOlave of a period of yetar, and had enjoyed immunity
for the many offenses he had committed and some that tbhe
counsel knew.
Mr. (loff.- I must object.f
Mr. N~1coil.-An'd some of the counsel knew of thee eds~ncee
of these checks  I donot know-that Mr. Goff didbut one of the
counsel was counsel for' Granger himself in ike 4ivoimc
proceeding.
Mr. Goff.-What Is this for?
Chairman Lexow.- I wil come 4owxi t the PoluL t
Mtr. NicolL. ---This comes to thspomit and Otanger nOw Mg.~
ap-pearm I am not permitted to cross-examine him, on this
proof. When Mr. McClave comes on the stand, the committee
affoi4MW Mr. Mc<lave an opportunity to tell the story, and he
tells all the truth and shows the community, the charater ofthis witness. Now, there Is one more chapter to be added apparently to this story. In 'addition to all the other disgraceful traits.
which the evidence shows this witness has mnfsted for years,.
it appears that he is now engaged, aidd probably will be for some,time, until an end is made of him some -way, in the business, of
blackmailing.
Chairman Lexowr-Kow, Mr. Nlcoll, -it seems to me as
any further statement upon a question of that kind by you wdi




884
emply have the effect of further intimidating the witness an;
preventing him from returning here before this committee.
Mr. Nieol-Is it possible the committee will not permit me
to stateChairnan Lexow. —It raises an important question whether
we will not have to strike out that testimony or not; and, inas —
much as you are entitled to cross-examination, I am not certain
in my mind whether we would be oompelled to strike out thai
*IPtness from the testimony now; but we ought to have hini
b7ack, and If you are going to Indulge in statements against Mr.
Granger's charactr which would have the efect of keeping himt
away -
Mr. W1oolL.- The entommttee muat knew of the eorts that have
been taken to bring him back.
Chairman Lexow.-We are going to make a supreme effort to
get him back, and when we reach Thursday or Friday it will be
better to make the statement you may prepare; but in the mearo
time, we ought to keep the witness protected as far as we ca
and any further attack on him means a further intinaldatien
the witness in the proceeding. 
MT. Nicoll.- I have been in co mmnication wifth- the cowasel
of the witnesse who has been at my office.
Mr. Goff.-IHow do you know he I o ouusel?
Mr. WicolL —Here are papers here signed by (Granger h1blud
Right here I hold them in my band, and am about to show tkhwu
to the committee. Will you permit me to do it
Chairman Lexow.- Any communication you have from
0Granger is of great importance  What are they? WtM wu4
you read them?
Mr. Nicollk-Yac; but I will tell you how they arrived tn ml
possession. You can not very well put the cart before the horse
I want to tell you first how I got the papers, and then I will tei
you what the papers are.
ChaJkamen Lexow.- AUl right, Mr. Nicoll
Mr. NimAl.- On Friday, I think It was, a gentleman: wioam I
have never seen before, burt whosee erd beas the natmne V
Stephen. J. Mtiliwell attorney and couakellor-at-law, Cawe bnid'
ing, Mount Vernon, N. Y, han'dt in to me by my Iboy, this ardt
on the back of which Is written, " In the matter of Oommissioner
Mso(Aiave. That is one of the papepr"  A moment or two elapsed
and he came in and swt down cplosite my deiW, and mild, "I am
Mr. StbliweLL"
Mr. Goa!f- I object I object It is not decent or just foir Mr.
Nooll to stand up here s=ul go on and make a statene'nt, evi.
denitly a prepaed swtatemeit~ njean the Lacts cl-ae6Ld; maildy




895


fat, as he underst aida  lhere is notihing before the ch ommittee
thia mornig. I do not object to Mr. Naimcol g&ng on and arguiing
aaiat ttie propriety of keeping th  teimony on record, but
Mr. tilwell is a lawvyer of the btate of New Yor. If Mr. Stillweil elained and represented hmself as counsel for Grang'r
Mr. Stillwell ought to-Be uelie as a witessw  I do not think at
this stage of the proceeding  getlemen, we aliid go into tais
queslon. It is, as youi sggeslte4 M   irm,   but i ampei
the committee   its WoLk                                 Af
Mair  Inn Lexow.-. WMi you. not claim M cwunel for "t *M.
rittee that if Mr. Stlwell, or ray otdea lawyer of the aae ef
New York, had uadertaken to keep Mr. Graager undr cweYr,
away from the prwocess   of ths c ite,   def iuaoe of a legAlly
served   b      toe at, tamt Mr. Stilwell is just  i mud to be coan
demuned as Mr. Granger, and tIat tisoomaunitee dauid exeretse
thei power to bring Mr. &8tfil-vl befor  e tie I f t is c-cIn
mittee?Mr. Gof.- Preeiely.   bait is fie s pot t I was goig to urggest. Not only G.rager Iay be gudity of ome offense or ontemipt wow m refusing to apepar before  is comamittee, but if it
adhoOud appear that -aay hpe a s ]aedod tao ee him aws:y,
to intimidate him. o br l ime n hfimi  aepearing oefore Bs aoumittee, thaA peo   is giitty o felony. We have had one cae in
the wourts here, w  h I trked myife, in the Temnpleton case,
wiere tfB  perU west to Stgates ipison for three years for trying
to intimidate a witness in this ctMI; and so far as ihat is ccncerned, not oaly woud it be a contempt of th e State, but it would
be a violaion of law, and a feloy on the part of Mr. Stillwell if
he be guilty of doing anzy salh i t, as may be imputed to him.
I do not krow, and ha-e not met the gentleman, ad  have not had
any ooe         with him,; fterefore, I think it improper ffir
Mr. MioI to stae whal converi c    Mata may have paased between
him and Mr. tillwell; non  omlfstn Mr. Stillwell would have no
right to talk for Mr. Gang   Mr. wtilwel ia a menter of the
bar adjsent to New Yr.& Wf. Stiliwell would net be regun
larly here in aay mmier or Iorm; and I am sure if the committee
wani Mr, Stillwell, Mr. &tflwell win oome here. I think
the oommittee b hea d   enough about thas
Mr. Nloo-L- The coanittee he h not got the point
Mr. Goff.- The committee aIs yc to get to the point;
Cauirmean Lesxow.-I do not see how the conrsel oan use bhi
peoliar sitnation before this committee for the prwpose, not
being under oath, of making statements hee t1t go up   the
recow*  that are mande pcblic pro'ety tibrough the newsaper
prinita  Ti  is a pretty serious sdtuaion for u1 the gentlemec




886
Interested, and I tfink it would be betfr fiat aniy facts that you
may have in your,potsession ishould be cmnuniinoated to the committee in executive session, or to Mr. Goff as ounsel for the
committee.                               ' 
Mr. Nicoll. —I have communtincatted them all to te chairman;
I have commnicated tiem all to Mr. Goff; they know them all.
Chairmanl Lexow.-I think a:ction shotid be taken in executive
session, and not in open session. If those are all the focts that
you are goging to tel, I tink it wioud be better to keep them
alive until next Friday, anrd give this comrnittee an opportunity
to hlave Mr. Granger appear here. In other words, I think tiat
we do not want to place this coamittjee in a position where it
lenls itself to a possibl intimidationi of the witness. Let us first
make every effort to gt him here, and if we find otliers standing
in the way, it will bi time enough to go forward and punish them,
as the laws of thi State will punish them. I will eommunicate
the fact to tbe oommttee in; executive essissn, so, as far as you
are oomnoemeld, all the facts you know, will be at their dispoal.
I thtnk they,are very imnportant, atd actoa shiold be walk mu
bem. Mr. Goff, will you proceed?
Mr. Goff.-o7Tw Mr. Shea.
5odih V. hea, called to the witness stad.
Mr. Goff.-Give me delivery book. WiRtne       Aigte   tfersbbpoena express agent of tie Amercatn    ExprfPer  omptniy,
at Riverdale, produces certain books in response toi a subpoena.
W.ff  Mr. hea  stand down, please?
John  Alge, cai ed as a witness o   f off the tekr^,tg
-Jly won, ttified as followrs:.! 
Direct earm nation by Mr. Goff:   I! '   1 r,-;  i
Mr.;Niool.-Will the eommittee pernit mo w mgeg  tbMt Wce
witneus be eamined at a tmne. I noteie in the
ot Mr. McOlave, we exained ei-gt       w       ile exbaminng
Mr. MoClave.
Mr. Goff.-Those were witnesses on the identification of books,
in order to banboniz te   etineo'ay. Tlere was only one witness 'eamneda on mtiers ouide. That was the sailor. This
witness is for the pwpose of identifying certana books referred
to by the witness  hea. I slxply wat to have them put in
evideuce.
Q What is your o    patimon Mr. Algeo? A. As general agen
for tie New Yrk Otral aA'i Hudson iElver Eailroad, and the
American Etprex   Oamany.
Q. You an it tae eanph   of beti omrptaotoa? -    Ye, Sir,,,
of bot     ' - 




887
Q. And where are you statioted in your employ? A~ At RWvev'
dal.
Q. I hand you books which yOU have brouht to the court in
response to a subpoena,; will you please describe what they are,
Mr. Algeo? A. Yes, sir; these are the delivery sheets; the
entries are made from the way bills of the paok-ages and merehamndise, etc., received for u-se of the driver to obtain receipts
and olleaot the hehrges thereon.
Q. Which eompauy is it they belong to? A. The Amerieso
Rxpress Oompaniy; it has no connection with the railroud unpamey whatever; in sniasler places, like Riverdale, where there is
not so much work, the agent acts as agent in both oempaones.
Q Do thew sheets represent ead. dnays transactions as cow
sluded? A. Yes.
Q Will you, aMow we to kuok at one, pienee; I wfill keep it fin
order; when the mm  under you ave charged with the delivery
of pekcaiges, are they funishied with one of these sheets? A.
Yes, sir; they are furished  with the sheet; th  driver himself
genen lly writes the receiptu up, IileM and weiy bdlls himself;
you know they are dr   W emtries; I eheck against the sheets
and way btilsh
Q He returns the sheet In at night? A. Oiu the ollowing
morning.
Q On which day he retuns the sheets in? A. Ye% sir.
Q And you received the money accounted for on those sheets?
A. I do; and I settle with him.
Q. What is the book yo-u have? A. That is the entry book;
th-at is, the entry of way bills, similar to this.
Q. Just let me look at that, Mr. Algeo; when are the entries
made in this book? A. Generally every day; it may run behind
a day or two.
Q. Who makes the entries? A. I do, on some octsbons, and
sometimes my assistants at the station.
Q. They are made under your supervision and direction? A
Enitirely.
Q. Do you compare the entries on the book made here with
the entries upon the daily slips? A. No.
Q. That you have? A. No; I do, not; I comrpare the way-bills
received from the original officers that made the way-bills.
Q. Is it from the way-bills that you make these entries?
Yes,; exactly.
Q. Mid from the way-blls the deliver mukes the entries
upon the slips? A. Yes; exactly..Q. And it is upon the strength of your book that you. make
your returns? A. Yes sir.




888
QT '1'o  e company? XA No; I do not even make my returns
from bfIaj book; I check them from the way-bills originally,
and from what we call the statement; the footings of the statement must agree with that or they do not balance; for instance,
you turn over to the 155th of any month, or the 30th, and -.n
impressionr is made of the copy, and it is impressed on the
page of that book.
Q. And that is a copy of the statemient you sead, to the co=pany? A. Yea
Q. Of the trSaabTioi s ha4? l. Yes.
q De you keep any other boolm in connection with your
eipress business there? A. None whatever; there is none is
tiLe Wbusiaes except that, except the op.  f our Wy-bils.
Q. Do you keep any private booko of account between yourself and the agent charged with the delivery of golos? A.
Nothdng, but a slip on file.
Q. A eip on file? A. Yes.
Q. And have you got those slips? A. No, sir; Whfe I settled
up with him I gave him the slips.
Q. That is all I want to lkow. It Is the rule of the Cowpany that when an agent is charged with the deisel y i
goods, &at he collect, tke moneys on way-bill, from  w'li1jl
he makes his statement, is it not? A. Yes, sir; as a gemeril
thing.
Q. That is the rule? A. Yes.
9. Ad you, as the aeut of the company, you are cbihagd
wihi At enforcement of Oiat rule? A. I am responsible, exa.
QYeT; you are charged with the enforcement of that rO.e
~t wis1 'da, Mr. Alge#, for the present, if you leave the books
here. We will not keep you long.
O(4rmsm Lexow.- Did you want Mr. Algeo to stay here?~
Mr. Qoffe- Yes; I will not keep ypu long, Mr. Algeo.
Patrick V. Shea recalled.
Dirct exazmination contbiwmd by Mr. Goiff:
O., What is yewi regorded heighbt on your examinatiot, papetiw?
A. As near as I eWn remember it was five feet nine and a kalf.
Q Have you talked with Mr. Algeo since the last day you were
on the witness-stand here? A. I have spoken to him when 1
went to the ataatln;  I get off and get on there goimng home.
Q. You have talked with him  abqut the case? A. A few
words in conneotion with It; )ie said, "I heard. my name is menti~je4 ip connection with that case;" that is about a4,
Q. Dia you say anything to him about the books1 'A. Wo, isir.




889


Q. Mr. Shea, talk a little louder; you go home to your home
l Riverside evcty night? A. No, sir; every other day,
Q. Every other day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is what you call your day off? A. Yes, sir.
9. How freqaently did you see- Mr. Algeo since? A. I seen
him Saturday afternoon and yesterday afternoon.
Q. What? A. Saturday afternoon and yesterday afternoon.
Q. You remember, Mr. Shea, when you cane here on the morning sayiig to a person in this court room that the cmiinittee
thought they had you, but you had things all right? A. No, sir;
I remember saying nothing of the kind.
Q. Nothing 'n substance? A. No, sir.
Q. Or any place outside of this court room? A. No, sir.
Q. fPo any person? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you nention to any pjerson the object of your being
subpoenaed here? A. N~.o, sir; I could not mention it, because
I did not know what I was subpoenaed for.
Q. Did you say to any person after Mr. Webb's examinations
that you were all right; you had things all arranged? A. No,
sir; not that I remember.
Q. (mu't you refresh y`ur recollection; you will not, swear you
did not ma-ke such a statemen, will you? A. I don't remember
whetfier I made such a  btatement.
Q. You may have made it? A. I wwIid not say I made it.
Q. You would not say y~o did not? A. No~ sir.
By Cthairan Lexow:
Q Oan't you state whuetiher you made a statement of that kind
or not? A. I don't remnember; there was smie remark passed
otatsdde; something a-bout the case as I was mocining in here.
Q0 Do you remember stating anylking to the effect that yoa
had the thling all fixer up, or the case in such a condition. that they
could not get at any4hilig, or wcirds to that effect? A. No, sier;
I do not remneimbere saying, onythdng, of the kini
By Mr. loff:
Q. Do you rememher any observation in reply to the remnark
you heard in relation to the case? A. I said something; I don't
know what it was.
Q. What did you say,? A. I don't remember.
Q. Whfo spoke to you? A. I can not tell; I don't lknow.
Q. What was asid to you? A. Something in regard to having
me in here.
Q. What did' you sayt? A. I do not remember what reply I
made.
Q. Didn't you say they thkxuight they had-you, but they were
mistaken? A. No, sir; I don't remenber anythingl of the kind.
L.      -112




890.i Willyou swea riat you, did not utteo those words oming
into the courmtawm? A. I danit remember having said them.
Q. Will you swear that you did not utter those words right
caming into the coWtroom the last day you were down before the
oomuittee? A. That "They tlought they Lad me but were mistaken," was that it?
Q. Wods to that effeot yea  A. I dom't renmeber having said
anytbiig of the kiin
Q. You will anot testify that you did not utter those warls?
A. You say words,oi that effeot?
Q. Or words to that effect? A I aid something about it
Q. You may have said somethng like tbaft? A. I may have
said sonething awouit it
Q. OaCIrying the same menaring that those words on their face
aaried; isat that the fact? A. Thene was sione remark p &assed
aibrit their having me in here at the doar, and I might have said,
"I guess not," or sonething like that; and those are the words I
may havue used. 
Q. When you said you did not say a word atbont the case at all
you are mistaken? A. I don't remmber saying ttht.
Q. Your memory lapses? A Yes;- I do not remember it
Q. You do not remember it, then? A. No.
Q. Has your memory been refreshed o any point since your
lat examination that you wih to.otleet in your last testmony?
A, In what way?
Q. In any way.
Seator Bradley.-Ainything you want w dchage; any, eatemert that you made that you wwnt to ooiret
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Any statement you mraide? A. Te    wwa a statement I
brioght ih in the first part of my testimony that I brought in
about unmform; I uxiderstood my uniform waould cost me $70;
when I called on the tailor to make arrangement to make my
umiform he told me that it was not neoessary for me to pay him
cash; that I would not make anything by it, ad there was a rile
among the men to pay so much a month; and I made arangemeats to pay him in that way.
Q. go that when you told the aonmittee that you needed $70
and used it for the pupose of buying your uniform, you told them
what was not oareot? A. I do not remember telling them I
used it for baying the uniform.
Q You said you used $70 for the purpose of buying the uniform, Mr. Shea?




891,; Senator Saxton. —He was explaining what use he had for the
money he borrowed.
Mr. Nicoll.-Explain what he borrowed the money for,
I Senator Saxton.-Leaving the impression that he paid $70 of
the $300 for his uniform, $100 for his brother-in-law or his
brother, and went on to account for this $300 in a legitimate way.
Senator Bradley. —And $60 for the expressman.
Senator Saxton. —And practically account for $250 of it.
By Mr. Goff;.
Q. You say you have got two brothers on the police force?
~L Yes, sir.
Q. And did you not inquire from them all the formalities to go
through touching getting on the force and everything about buying any uniform? A. No, sir; I never mentioned uniform to them.
Q. Don't you recollect they told you what was necessary to be
done; how it could be done? A. No, sir; they never told me.
Q. What? A. No, sir.!
Q. Well, now we have it, Mr. Shea, that the $70 that you have
referende to as needed out of the $300 that you borrowed from
Ai.   '. b were not needed by you to pay for your uniforml
immediately? A. No, sir; that is a fact.
Q. Is there any other point in your testimony that you wisji
to correct? A. No, sir; I think not.
QO Yet, when you borrowed these $300 from Mr. Webb you boir
rowed ttem for the purpose of meeting your immediate necessi
ties? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And one of those immediate necessities was a $100 that you
owed your brother for about two years or a year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, the $70 was not an immediate necessity? A. Well,
it was; I used it.
Q Did you pay it in one sum to the tailor? A. No, sir; I paid
it for other things.
Q. Hold on a moment; you did not pay the $70 in one sum to
the tailor? A. No, sir.
Q. Who is the tailor? A. Levy. 
Q. Where is his place of business? A. In Mulberry street
Q. Have you been to see him since this examination before?
AL I have been there and got a suit of uniform.
Q. Have you been there since your examination, officer, last
Friday? A. Yes, sir; I was there- let me see ---on Friday.
Q. You were there on Friday? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you talked with Levy about the uniform business,
didn't you? A. Relating to this trial?
Q. You tallied with him about the uniform business, your get



892
Bg n tm ie police force, last Friday?  Thhe only uniform T
talted about was the suit I was after.
Q. Did you say anything to him about the uniform you
ibtained from him when you first went on the police force? A.
No, sir.
Q. Was there anything said between you and Levy as to. the
mode of payment for your uniform? A. At tha' time?
Q. Yes, last Friday? A. No, sir.
Q. How is it, then, that you have corrected your testimony in
that respect; is it from conversation that you had with any person since last Friday? A. No, sir; it is not
Q WFen did you pay Levy the last money on your first uniiorm? A. The last was the second of last month —n% tAhis
month.
Q. You paid him by monthly installments? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the cost of the uniform? A. Something like $68,
I think.
Q. Has it all been paid for since? A. No, sir; not yet; I still
ow e him.
Q Now we have it that you havre the $300; we first take that
$00 that you refrred to? A. Yes.
Q. When did you pay your brother that $100? A. Let me se;
I paid him that $100 in the latter part of September.
Q. Now you had $200 l'eft? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do with the $200? A. I paid Mr. Algeo $60.
Q. You paid Mr. Algeo $60? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you pay him the $60? A. Around about the same
time, the latter part of September-no; about some time in
October, in the early part of October.
Q. Did you get a receipt from Mr. Algeo? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say that you were indebted to Mr. Algeo or to the
company when you paid that $60? A. No, sir; I was indebted
to Mr. Algeo.
Q. Well, to Mr. Alego? A. Yes, sir..
Q. And that indebtedness was not for money borrowed from
Mr. Alfgo? A. No, sir.
Q. And that indebtedness was paid to Mr. Algeo about the end
of September, wasn't it? A. About the end of September or
early in October: I would not lHe positive.
Q. You were appointed about October 2d; that is the first
night you turned out? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you remember you paid him before you turned
out on police duty? A. I may have paid him that day I trned
out; I was home.
Q. The day you turned out? A Yes.




Q Andl that included all moneys that you were supposed to
have oollected for the latter part of September? A. No; no;
X collected more money than that.
Q. You stated on your last examination that a settlemrut
was made the first and 15th of this month? A. Yes, six.
Q. A settlenent was made on -the 15th of September; you
have so sworn? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were all clear on the 15th of September? A.
Yes.             4
Q So any indebtedness that you had'at the end of SepteniIer nsst have occurred between the 15th of Septemaber and
*he 3Gth of September? A. That is right
Q. That is what I mean; now, that G40 that you paid to Mr.
W4Jgea; did you get any of that money at all? A. I got some
of It; yes, sfr.
Q fow much? A. Ob, I couldn't tell; I was paid probably
25 cents or 50 cents, or a dollar at a time.
Q Weren't you paid during the latter part of -the month of
September &iese mrio=r sums? A. Yes, air; I was paid some
of it
Q. WatSnt you paid by every person to whom you delivered
the package the charges of that package? A. Yes.
Q And you received the $O yourself that you claimed you
paid to-Algeo? A.. ea, sir; I did not reeeive all of Itj I
received some of it after I was appointed ocn the police.
Q. You have received every cent o(P it, haven't you? A. I
suppose pretty near, anyhow.
Q Will you name one consnee of a parcel that has not
paid the charges on the parcel?  A. No, sir; I can not do it
Q. Will you name one consignee of a parcel that owes you
for that parcel on the 1st of October, or thie 2d of October,
wen you vwue appointed on the police force? A. Yes; I can
anme a coupie.
Q Well, give me the names? A. Miss C ombes owes me
omne money.
Q Give me Miss Oombes residence? A. Riverdale.
Q M&iss Cooibesr, Riverdale; Is she a lady in private MifA or
in busbww? A. hIe is in business now.
Q. What Is the business? A. Hotel and boarding-house.
Q. What to the name of the hotel? A. The Chestnuts,
Q. The Chestnuts; In Rtiverdale; and how  much did 'Mlm~
Oo~mbies-is It Miss or Mrs? A. Miss.
Q Is she the proprietress?  A. Yes, sir; she runs the plae.
Q. THw much money did Miss Combes owe you? A. I can
not remember; somevhberes around $10 or $11.




894


Q~ I'r pack$ages3 delivered? A. Yes
Q During thait mouthi? A. Yes.
Q  Wbhen did Miss Combes pay you? ' T IW.   l doruianMier
the date.
Q. Did she pay y'ouat al?  A.Did she pay me?
Y. Yes? A. Oh, yes; she paid me.
Q. Will y4o0u name another person who owed you for packages delivered between September 15th and October 1st; will
you name me somebody else? A. I do not remember; probably Mr. Algeo would; he collected some money for me
Q. I am  asking you? A. I don't remember others butl I
know there were others, but I don't remember them.
Q flow many parcels did you deliver to Miss Combes that
aggregated the sum of $11 that you have stated?  A. I don't
know, sir.
Q. Was it one? A. I ran a monthly account with her.
Q. Was it one or two parcels? A. It was more than that, sir.
Q. Give us the number?  A. I can not do it.
Q. How many parcels did you delive, 1xt bier? A. In, Septenber?                                       I
Q. Fivm the 15th of Seprember -to the 1st ~Vf Otober? A. I
think so; I amn not positive.
Q. Now, you oughrt to know; you, have sworn here tha~i all the
money you owed M1r. Algeo.'atccrued from the 15th of September
to the 1st of October; now you say you 6ilvered pkckages to
a Miss (Yombes in 'between those. dates for -which she owed you
'l1 or thereabouts; I ask. you now if yoyu can swear you- delivered
-ny packages to her within those dates?   I delivered packag es durin g the mouth of September.
Q. I am fasking you witihin the 15Th. of September and tb~e 1st
of October? A. I do -not remiember.
Q. Will you. swear you did or you did not? 'A. I will nzto
swIear.
Q You will not swear? A. No, sir.
By Chairman L.exow:
Q. Do you mean by that you can not remember? A. Yes; 1
never bothimied about it since.
Q. You aam not remember at all; it made no inpression on you
at the time? A. It did at the time.
Q. No ipsrseion   of remembrance?   A. No, sir; I don't
rememrber anything about it; I suppose if I thought I had to
undergo this examinlation I would have remembered it.
By Senator Bradley:
Q Do you keep a memorandum book?' A. Yes, sir; I keep a
small mnemorandum.




895
Q. Would   ftha refresh your min; woild fiat refresh your
reoollection? A. If I had it; I destroyed it
Q. Were you aooustomed to keep memoramnda? A. No, sir
I did keep a kind of memnauidm wihen I was an the wagon
but half th te  I did not mark down and take harge
Q Yon did not keep a dia7 or aanyring else like that?.
2N, sir.                                           I. How, did ywa pa   this $100 to your Ulother, by dhecd or
bills, or in what way? A. I bila.....
Q. Where? A. Up hlom
Q At your house? A. Yes, sir.
Q Had he demanded It from yoru? '. Well, lie Ii%4 t)nE
emnaaided it but hte came to me and told me he was in need of
money and if I could give it to get it for hiinm and I done so.. Did you know he was at that time in aitual need of the
money? A. I thnogiht he was or would not have said so /K
Q. What difference was there between his financiial condition
then and 4the two yems that had itervened between tihe time
you borrwed it? A. I aan not telL
Q. Was he any power then? A. He may have hiad bills to
meet
Q. Had he 1oswt any money? A. He was a mnaried man; I
1lo lot know anlytiing,about his household affairs.
Q Well, he simply iold yon he nieded the money? A. Yes,
sir; he asked me for it, and wihe I wanted the mnone he went
and got it, and I thought it was no more thaa right I should
do the same by bhim., "                               i
Q. Did he give you a reoeipt for it? rA No, sir.
Q. Had you given him an acknowledgment of indebtedness?, Nao sir; just merely asked lhim for tle money, and he gave it
to me.
QE How biad he Ioa  id you the moey, in bills? A Yes, in
Q In small sums from time to time? A. Yes~ sr; $25 aad
probsdy less; I dhat kraw.c&lj fhe a#ohuet; it was piobably
ramning two yeara.         -—.'.-'. '..  -- -"  '
t ye.
4! By Mr, oVff1
Q. Can you nane aay other persou   to whiom you deliviered
who did not pay yox durig that period of time from
es 15th of 8eptember to the 1st of October?  A. There was
lenty of people who did not pay me, if I could remember.. Yon were giving out parcels from     the company tfat
employed you, and were not receiving the moniey on delivery;
it is very important tha you should be able t!o state now how
it i tat you were iaidebted to the station agent fo1r the goods




896
yon  did aot i Poeive the monuey for? AX We, I oari!
rememb                      I   *eL          {
Q. You cam Mit re   be    y mwre exmopt Miss Combes? t
No, air.                                                ':i
Q. I hand you these dlivery elp^ identified by the agent,
Mr. Algeo, and ask you to poit out to the oommittee the nnmher of pacgages ymv received for delivery to Miss Oombes between
the I1h of September and tie st of Otober, and the amonnt of
charges umpon eai paage     A. I man a        yrty acort with
Miss Oombee.
Q. Now please do as I ask yoa? A. (Witneas esmies sipa.)
Well, I find several there.
Q. How many? A. I did not oriet thie mrnber; did you wait
me to omnt them?
Q. I asked you to give us the names, or the dates and amsonts
of thie paclaiges that you gave to Miss Combes? A. I will have
to go over them again.
Q. I couid have pointed them out to yo, officer, but I world
rather you would find them yourself.
Mr. NictL- Do't you think it wOald hasten things a good
deal by pointing them out, if they are there?
Mnr Goa.- There are some few there  I do not wish to do It
I would rather have the witness.
Ciarmnan Lexowe-How much did they aggregate?
Mr. Goff.-About $4; 45 cents less than $4.
Q. here ae three parcels there, offficer. A. There are others
here.
Q. Now please wait a while; you have the slip there; I had
better get the amnonat; if yw wish to take time we will have the
examination; I would rather you did yoursel.         -
Mr. Nkol.- He says there are others there.
By the Chairmain
Q. If you say ounsel is misriakeni, porrt out tle number? X
There are others, but not in Misa' Combe' taie, that were
charged on M3i  C Oumbes' acoount.
By Mr. Goff 
nQ That it another question. Whlt we want to get at Is the
nnmber of packages charged to Miss Oombes, and the ammnts
for those paldCmges officer? A. Yes, eiri I will take yow word
for whateves yo  count ot there.
By Cbaimr Lan exowl
Q Is it not a fact that aIl this money was returned to the




897


witane  within a few, dys pracical  after he met the ept
or the preaumptio is, e got the money back.
Mt. Goff.- That is what I want to get at.faimain Lexow.- Why should we delay the work of the -a
mittee by going into those details. Substantially there is onlR
one sum of manmOey acomited for out of the $800, and that is the
$100 he paid his broher; tiat is as I umderstand it sow.
Mr. Niol. —He paid the $60 to Mr. Alegox
Cjairmia Lexow.- And it came back aga'im. He paid it out to
Mr. Ate    and it came right back again, dida't it; you said tbati
The Witness.- Yes, sir.
Senator Bradley.-Ee got it all back.
Ohairman  Lexow.- He says he can not specify a single item
that   s   t returned to him within. a short time after h made
the origina expense,
By Mr. Nicoll
Q. How long; at the end of Se iem  r?
Seiator Bradley.-In tih  eaay part of OC te
By Chainman Lexowt
Q. Is't tha right? A. Smne tenie ni th  monbf   I tdul not
receive it altogedLems
Chairman Lexow.- Therefore we come to the one item of 10%,
and I wish that counsel would confine himself    to he ftnexamination on that point
Mr. NicolL-That was after he paid Aspi.    a thbe meW
came back; within a few days.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. I find, officer, a parcel directed to M. dotnbe; I presw!
that is the name you have reference to? A. Yes, sir.
Q On which are $2.95; there is a receipt here which sho,
the parcel was received by Miss Combes? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tere are two other parcels later on, and each for 35 centq
that is my examination? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that would be $3.65; that is all I find in this book; now
f you can find any oters —the   are two parcels to Miss Oomb
without any charges whatever? A. Yes; that is prepaid.
Q. I want to deal with you fairly; it is my duty to do so; a
&ta  book shows, officer, that the amount of charges you have
against Miss ombes during the period you are testifying is $3.65t
A. Yes, sir.
I  ' i1  113




898




W?. nd thiat money you received afterwards from Miss Olombes?
~&1 Yes; and more with it
Senator O'Connor.- Don't you think you could take less time.
We are sfaftifed he is -not telling the truth of that money. 
thinkr anybody that has had experience in the law knows he is
not telling the truth, but you can -not get him to admit it.Senator Bradley.- There is too much mental reservation bhere.
Mr. Gloff.- f want the witines to go on and demonstrate thle
amweliability to be placed on his testimony.
Senator O'Connor.- I think that wtrs shown long ago. Why,
not confine your exmination to this $1,00. He will not confess
whait you want.
Mr. Goff.- My duty was to show you the substantial truth of
the unareliabillity of this witness' testimony from his own lips.
Q. You said you recei'vtd that $60 back; will you accoaunt for
any other portion of the $300 except the $100 you paid youn
brother? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell us? A. It cost me In the neighborhood of $20 for
bVedding.
Q. To whom did you pa~y that, and when? A. I paid' some, I.
think somethiug like $1I9 to Cow-perthwaite.
Q. There is a $1.80. A. Thirteen dollars I said; and therei
was sheets.
Q. Tw~enty dollars in the aggregate? A. Yes; $20.
Q. And what else? A. AboGut $20 for board and railroa#i
expenses while I was on probation.
Q. T1wenty dollars for board and railroad expenses while on
probation? A. Yes; $21 for revolver.
Q.Fifty-two dollars? A. And $6 for equipments, such as
baton and that like.
Q. Say $60; go on? A. And $6 for rubbers.
Q. Sixty-six dollars? A. And a pair o~f patrol shoes I pd-id $8
for.
Q. Seventy-four dollars; -now we have got to $174; amythi~ng
else? A. There were a number of other small things.
Q. You have given us a lot of small things? A. Nippers.
Q. How much in the aggregate? A. I think they cost $1.
Q. That wouald be $175? A. Yes.
Q. Anything clse? A. T-hat is about all I can remember.
Q. Whht did you do with the balance? A. I had smiething'
Ie$70 left, I think.
Q. That woull leave $175 to you according toy our-@wn statemeat; What did you do with that?
Mr. Nwicoll.- No; hue pfid $60 to Algeo
A. I1did not receive it back then.




Q. Wil you swwear you did not pay ayilt g to any peSoM
'a con sieration of your appointment? A, Yes, sir.
Q. And if you had to pay anything you would not gte It
awa', would you? A. If I had to pay-?
Q Yes? A. If I wa f ih eaough to pay       to g  o 
police-,,
Q. If you paidMr. Nicoll.-Let him give his aSwes
By Chairman Lexow:, Q Wliat did you say, witness?
Mr. Goff.-He knows what I asked.
Mr. Micoll.-He said, "If I was foolish enough to go on Ik
force "The Wites-.-If I was foolish enough to pay $300 to get m
She poleie, I would not be foolish enough to tell anybody
Chairiuan  Lexow. —Is that all, Mr. Go3?,
Mr. Goff.-Yes —one moment
By Chainraim   Lexow:
Q. Witness, you understand you are rnier 'ati, dion' yoit
~ Yea, sir.
Q. You understand that tihe oath you have taken here is just
as bining as any oath takea in any court of law? A. I do, siR
Q. You understand if you tell anything that is not true that
you perjure yourself? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you understand the penalties of perjury? A. Yies
it is felony, I believe.
Q. Did you make your last stateent with a ill coieptiou
of the penalties of perjury? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is, if you had been foolish enough to pay $300 for an
a;pointeta,   you would not be foolish enog.h to tel about it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q.Do you mean by tha, if you had been fooish enough tp
imake a pa  et of that kind, that you wouid go on the stand
here aad deny it? A. WellQ. Do you mean to make that staitement? A. That I wouiA
be foolishQ. That if you had paid $300 for an aWointment you would
go on the stand here and deny it? A. Deny I paid it?
Q. Yes? A. No, sir; I don't think I would.
Q. You don't think you would? A. No, sir; I am positive I
would not
Q. Aet you positive on a qustio   of that kind? A. Yes
sir.' '         '               '  '' -     -  -




9Q.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Yea dmttd a few momets go, yon admitted tat fa 
8at yen would not be foolish enough to give it aw? ALi
By Mr. -!offt
Q. Do you know, office, tat even if you paid $300 and
acknowledged it, that your life would be made miserable among
yur fellow policemen? A. I don't know that
( Haven't you heard it spoken of in! the station; haven't you?
A. The only time I ever heard it spoken of was when it came
out in the World some gane ago.
Q. And you have heard it spoken of since you have been on
the stand here, among your fellow policemen; havenft you? A.
Well, they might have passed a few remarks about it.
Q. aven't you heard it spoken of in the station housewas it not? A. It was.
Q. And wasn't it said there that any policeman that would
squeal" should not be allowed to live on the force? A. No,
air.
Q Don't you know that policemen are bound to stand by
eaeh other in the investigation of the Senate Committee? A.
I do not know t-a there is anything binding on it.. Is it not the understanding that the policemen must stand
up to the rack? A. No, sir.
Ofhiaran Lexow.- I do nt think the committee understauds
et every one would go on the stad and perjure tfhemselves
R. Goff.-N-'   sir; there are decent men on the pollee force in
C2  atua Lexow.-Haven't we got thmi.gh with the wbnesaa?
n. Goff.-Yes; I think the omniftee has got through with
as witness.
Senator O(oYnsor-These men, if they do not pay the commissioners, they pay people tatt are suposed to have influence.
Get at some of those fellows; they are the men to get a.
Mr. Nicoll.- One moment, sir.
Senator O'Consor.- I wodId liee to get at some of tose f elIwm tfat are sepp  d to get a living by their police iainencee
OCzss-<ermmati %by M. Nkcn:. Offio.  Shea, you have heard the ob 'evaItims Vieh dyffecnt membea of the oommttee made uponl yu in the couwse of
your testimony, didn't you? A. Yes, sir; I di'




Q. You have heard wtat Senator OOonor said and about
Senator Bradley aid? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You heard it all? A. Yes, sir; I heard it afL
Q Now, I want to ask you whether or not you paid of fat
sun of 300 which yor brrowed fm Mr. Webb to any person
whatever for the prpose of getting on th  police force? A
No, sir; I did notL
Q. And ntwths     ding the criticisms that have been maie
upon you, do you Iepeat that statement? A. Yes, sir; I repeat
it that I did not pay one dollar to lainybdy to have me appointed
on the police.
Q. Now, as I understand it, yon paid $100 to your brother
becuaue he was pressing and asking you, to repay the money yoau
had borrowed? A. Yes, sir.. Ad you paid460 to Mr. Alhro? A. To Mr. Algeo; yes, sir.
4. Which you got back in part, with the exception of some
smal mnouts, afterwards? A. Yes, ir.
Q. Yo  paid $75, aooordig t to te additina of Mr. Goff, for
t:ose vnorios propeties whiich vyo have stated 'ere? A. Yct
sr.
Q. Wilhi maSe $286? A. Yes, sir.
Q Ileavig a balance of $65? A. Yes, ir.
Q. And di't you pay something on accouat of yotur  nimform?
A. Yes, sir; I paid $5.
Q. On acont? A Yes.
Q. And how often a month did you have to pay on aaoout?
A. The first of each mdath.
Q. The first of ech month? A. Yea
Q. And you hbad several months to pay on aoiount of yoa
-Eitorm? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you borrowed the money of Mr. Webb you betiev-d
yohad to pay $70? A. Yes, sir; I was pcaitive I hai
Q. It would not have been necessary to have borrowed the
entire amnomt?
Senator Ooimnore- I world fuggest you do not siggeet to the
winess the kind of answers he makes. You a"ed him if, when 
he borrowed the $300, he thought It neesisary to borrow that I
think it is the most odtoxtMdh  kind of eadiag qu&etin to ask
your own witnes.
Mr. Nico11.- This is supposed to be cross-emination.
Sentaior (0'onam.w- N; t  these  n  ae ot d itnves esss. TYo
do nt t hmnk this mim Is an, adverse witne  tthe poiiee department?
Mr. Niiol.- I think tihbs ma.n maKes the impressi' that he ts
a very truFt irl witnesa
Senator OConnor.-It shows only how differently.eopIe W
impress-ed.. '. — *....." — ---               -




902


Mr. Nkeoll- Yes; It shows how different people are impressed,
7Ilien their objects are different Where did we leave off.
Q. What did you suppose as to the necessity of paying, $70
wken you borrowed $300 of Mr. Webb? A. How Is that?
Q. What did you suppose as to the necessity of mtaking ~qyrueat to Levy?
Ohairman Lexow. —We had all that flex gaid he sf -c"  e1L(
would have to pay for his uniform.
The Witness.- I supposed I would have to pay $70.
Q. That would make up the entire $300?
Cairman Lexow.-We can figure that out, Mr. Nicoll
Q. The rest of this money I suppoge you had in your pocket
and spent for current expenses? A.. -ys, er;;according Y a I
needed.
Q And you can not recollectdetails of 46C as 12 oQ?&?  A. No,
sir.
Q. At this time? A. No,sir.
Senator 2BradIley.- ie testified last week he wient armw4d and
Md a good tinie.
Mr.Yieoll.- I don't know Mho  much it cost, but I lwvsy~
understood that was expensive.
Senator B~radley.- You understand it is.
By Slenator O'Connor:
Q. I noticed this witness paid $143.50, according to Mr. Goff's
question; I want to ask this witness a question; Mr. Goff asked.
this, speaking of the uniform, "'What would that cost? A. That
would cost me about $70 at the outset for uniform. Q. That
would take $70 fron the $300 and that would leave $230? A-.
Th3at is right" Didn't you intend to give the impression to the
cnmittee at that time you paid $70 for your uniform? A. No,
sir; it was my intention to say what I borrowed the $300 for.
Q. What did you understand; did you say "that is right;" did
you not intend to give us the impression you had only $230 left?
A. No, sir; that was not my intention.
By. Chairman Lexow:
Q In what sums did you borrow this money that you have
spoken of of your brother?
Mr. NicolL- He went over that and said $25.
Q. At a time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Just four installments of $25 each? ~5 No; I could not
remembher the exact amount.
Q. Did you borrow any smaller amount than $25? A. I may
have borrowed smaller sums.




903


Q. Whep did you fix between your bro      afd yourself fft
-um as being $100 you owed him? A. Probablyl hbe ia. better'
memory tha I have; e oan testy to 
Q. I  fixed th.sum?  A. Yet sir
Q Whem did he tell you you owed him $100? X-n T    gIoed
of that yiear.
Q. When had you received the last  out tof $1O9  A. Soome
titpe n the spring.,. In the same year? X YeI si
By Senator Bradleyf
Q. Have yon any corrections to make or any other statement
to make in regard to the money you received of Mr. Webb-; yow
testified under oath you received it in bills from Mr. Webb? A.
Yes sir; from Mr. Webb's clerk.
4Q Have you it right in your mind that you had that in billst
A. Yes, str; from Mr. Webb's clerk.
By Mr. Goff:
D     'tfr. Wefb s ecetary   ve Ife - heo aed forotn?
BAL jr. Webbls clerk acompanied me to the bank ank said; tliis,
is the man," and I received $304 
By Senior DBrdley
Q The you received a ciheme? A I did noth areeive a iheki
from Mr. Webbts hamds or anybody e.        - 
By Mr. (off
Q. Do you dodge eA qnesmt; yo sma you nirer receved a
iekfrom Mr. Weibs haids? A. Yes, sir.
Q, Wasn't there a cekmiade out by M. Webb to your ordert
A.   ihat may have been
Q. Don't you know it? A. No, sir.
Q. Dldift you wriie onl the ba:ck of the  cec!k in tibl bank?
A. No, ir; I wrote on soune kind of a slip in Webfs of1fe.
Q. Aad you aeaanpaiied Mr Webb's setreeay to the Llcion
Bank? A. Yes, sir.
Q. A nd you gat Atie moie y tile? A. Yes
Q. Mr. tWea's sec'retary sltfag you were  e mai-   So whon
the dheck was payble? A. Yes.
Q. Ad you got the m    y there? AL Yes, sir.
QO Didn't you indorse a cheek? A. I can not tel wheter it
was a check, or drft, or order, or what it wa.




904
By Mr. Nicollh
Q~. Do you keep any bacAk aiowum   X1 No sir
Q. Ordid you at libait tiie? A..No,s.
Yhairmnan Lexow.-Is that al~l, Mr. Goff? Thiere is noc~use wsiting Umne over a matter of such minsignificanme
By Mr. Goff:           '
Q. Contnufing in the line of your question, page 1'656 you testified: "Q. What was the largest sum you borrGwed froma your
brother? A. Twe~nty-five dollars a~itthe time. Q. That was four
timies? A. Yes."
By Chairman ITAom
Q. Is that true, or is your answer to mie true, that you borrowed $25 ait a time, and somnetmes smialler sums? A. I
rememiber saying I would nut be positive of the amount.
Q.Can you, rememnber azuyi~ng ah~tat it at all, now? A.' I
z.rememiber sa(yig sTmeiig about $25; I know I borrowed $25
atlea4tL
Q. Hame you any present recollection of the amnount borrowed
of your bro'ther, and the times you borro~wed thaem? A. No, sir;
only I know I. paid them within a year and a bialf or two years
Mr. Goff.-Now are you ready to resume your cross-exambiation of My. McClave.
Mr. Nicoll.-I went over McClave~s testi4mont since last
Saturday, since the least sAdjo memnt,, and I made up my mind
I 'bad nothing further to eain him on. I eeS Wh im last night
at his house, and I went over the testinmio, and I said, " It
scems to me you heave told all you -can tell aboutk Gmetger is
the only thing that amounts to. anything, and if you have that
vAout. and if Mr. Goff wants you I will telephone to, youm"
Mr. Goff.-You had beitter art recess.
Ohalrina Lexow.-Have you 'any other witnesses now.
Mr. Goff.I count~ed on MoO1lave as soo  as we got ffhroug
the winesses here.
Joll Iboth4 ca-Red as a witness on behalf att t'.e Statae~ being
duly womn, testified as followsi
Direct emiainby Mr. GoM
Q.You undersband Egish!t? A. Not so very well butL I
undersnind. 
Q. Well, if you, don't understnand, you tell me? 'A. I understand so far as my business affairs, but not everythingm~ but I
have business.
Q. We will try to do oux  es tD1Jot along withyou; what, t




905


your business? A. My busins  is im norter of wine, and keep
ailgef beer.
Q. Wiie and lager been? A Yes, sir.
Q. Wbire is your plaoe of buiIes?  A. Place of bunes  i
15 Delauncey saceet
Q l this city? A. In the aity of New Yodk.
Q How long have you been there? A. I have been there th
next November 10 yeas, November 10 years? A. Yes asir.
Q. You have been down here to this court one day last week,
havent you? A. Yea
Q. And you eae    e the name of the policemanu that went
in'to yoar house when you returned from court here? A. Xbh
Q At night? A. N
Q Didn't you see any policeman? A. No.
Q Did ypu know any ipoliceen were in yr hioe? A.
There wwa a good mraoy come to my hose; but I dW't — any
particularly. 
Q. Don't you know a poliemina by the nuLie of eganu? A.
Began?
Q. Regan? A. No.
Q. Now tlihnk, Mr. ottL  A. egan;; no.
Q. Don't you kn-ow there were three Wplioeanie. In yoor plaee
last Thursday night when you left this court-room in the evening?
A. My dear sir, I don't remembeor that.
Q. You can not remember? A. No; I tell you, Mr. Goff, that
is too many officers oming in, not in uniform, in civilian dress.
Q. You mean those two men went into yotur house in uniform
A. No.
Q. Dildn't three poicemen go It in civiliian cothes, one after
the other? A. I don't knew; I haw so many other customers;
I have many oustoaners, fir. off.
Q. I am glad to lear it, Mr. Itii; I iol yeo w  hae many
more. A. Yes; I hope so
Q. Did you have any talk with any men ab io   being  bpoenaed here, Mr. Roth? A. No
Q. Did not say a woldl? A. No, sin
Q. Didln't you tell any one that you had been sub.poe.e d - re
the Senate Investigating Committee? A. No, ^si
Q. Are you sare about dthat? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever had any troume with the police about the
excise law? A. Well, I was arrested once; I have got to say the
truth, that is all - a couple of years ago.
Q. That is all the trouble yoou ever had? A. Twat is aHl the
troutle I got; that is all I lhad
h*.      114




Q Have you got a nq   e.w: by the name of Frank Newnaa?
A. Fian Newma.; yes.
Q. Do you keep a bank aooumt? A. I keep, a bank account;
yes, wr.
Q. Ia it a saving's bank acomtt or a depoit baik? A. No;
it is a deposit bak.
Q. Wlht bank? A. It is the Germaian  Bank, in the Bowerg.
Q. And you have that account here now? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you tell the committee when you drew out that $300
from tihe bank for Fraink Newman? A. Whtb?
Objcted to.
(hiairman  eow.- -Ask him whether   e drew out $300 for
riatnik Newman.
Q. I am asking himn  Did you draw out $300 fow Frank Newman? A. No, ai.
Q. Did you ever lend him any money? A. No sir; not five
cents, because I did not like him.
Q Did you ever lend his father any? A. Him?
Q. Yes  A. He is richer than myself; I have a store, and he
has a house; I don't know how miuclh myself,he has got.
Q. Do you remember when Frank Newman was appointed on
the police? A. Well, Mr. Goff, I am  not sure; m;aybe three
years; I don't know; I am not sure.
Q. I he on the police now?.A. Yes, so kw as I know; it is
very seldom I seen him.
Q. Have you anything to do with aiding him to get on the
force, hWplI him? A. No.
Q. Did you ever say to any person that you helped him with
money? A. No, sir; because I am sure I Xneer stuck to himn
you know, I did not like him; that is the reason.
Q. You don't like him? A. No.
Q. Or like his father? A. His father is my brotherin-law,
but at the same time I do not care for hian
Q. Don't you remember his father kept a house opposite to
your place? A. A house?
QO Yes; in Delancey street? A. Maybe he kept a house; I
don't know. he was going in and out; I don't know whether
he kept the house himself, or anybody else.
Q There was a house across the way? A. Yes; there is
some ho'se there; yes.
Q. Don't you know that Newman kept the house-this p*O
man's father? A. I heard many times he kept a house, but I
never was in the house.
Q. That is, a house of prostition? A I don't know; I
never was in it. 




907.You heard of that in the neighborhood? A. The neighborhood-I got to do my own biisies aud I am very. glad to
get cwtomnn ers.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Don't you know that was a house of IfU-famei or postiftution there? A. Mr. Senator, IQ. Don't you know that? A. There is people going in and oomIng ouit; and I don'tQ. Don't you know there was one there? A. I never go in the
house like that,
Q. Don't you think there was one? A. I dou't know,; I am
told if thatBy Senator Bradleyz
QYouare not in thatHliM o~ budhiewsr   W No.
By Mr. Golf:r
Q. Don't yoru know that at thfe time that Frank Newman was
appointed on the police force that his father ra~n the houoe at
14 Dela~ncey street? A. Mr. Goff, I am sure I will tell you the
truth, I never asked him about the business
Q. I know? A. So I heard that once Frank NJww~    WM
appointed offlcer; I did not give him a cent; and I d~onft know
where h( got the money.
By Chairman Lexows
Q. Do you know that he did get mmoney? A. Not, sr.
Q Did you hear that he got money? A.. Oh, me?
Q. Yes? A. He used to be a cigarmaker, and spent all his
money, and sometimes so and so.
Q. Did you hear he got any money to pay for apppoinwtmnt on
the police force? A. I never heard about That; I never asked
him how he got appoinrted; when he came around he said only
"I am appointed for the force;" I told him I felt aorq for.lim;
that is all; there is nothing else to say.
By Senator Bradley:Q. He did not answer your last question; you asked Mmi  f -he
knMew if that was u house of ill-fame? A. I am noti sure; not- I
never was there.
Q. And you heard. no rumor a-round the neighborhood,? A.
There is coffee-houses and housemObjected to by Mr. Nicoll.
Mr. Golf.- Any rumor is always good evidence.
By Mr. Golf: 
Q. I will ask the question again; it is euggested by Senatm
Bradley; at the time of Frank Newman's appointment to t*j




90)8


Police force didn't yft know it was couxmson talk  u4.d the
neighborhood that the house in which bis father a~d b~~
lived at 14 Delancey street was a house of ill-fame; doi~Pt y0o1
know that fact? A. No; Mr. Goff, I never.
Q. Did you ever hear it? A. Not; 4tamain Wuo narrie4 tWe*
or three times; he has got so many children, and so I don't know.
(Gesti-culasting with both arma)
Johan Hogan, oafled as a witness on beh~alf of the 8tWA% being
duly swown, testified as follows:,
Direct exiaminatioin by Mr. Goff:
Q.Did ymu kisstihe book, Mr. Hogau? A. YeL
Q.Do you recognize the -solemnit~y off the oufth you have twkemi?
A. I do; yes, sr..
Q.What is your businesa? A. A bwutdier.
Q.And where do you carry on busimem2 A. Thirty-eight
Q. Christie street? A. Yes, sic.
Q. How long have you been in bftshbess  A. Sinioe 1854.
Q. In about the samae plaice? A. In thih smie street; ou the
same block.
Q. YOUhave afaanily? A. I have.
Q. Have you a smon the police? A. Yes sir.
Q. Now, did you pay an-y money, to aoy person ait tbe timie of
the appoimntent of your son? Al. I didl not~ sir.
Q. Have you a bank account? A.. Well,2 not now; I have get
a small sinm in the bank, a business hank.
Q. Did you have a bank account at the time of your son's
*appontimuent? A. No, sir; I did noL,
Q. Neiuih a deposit biamk awcount nor. a sAqings back aocoo'nt?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you more tfkmn one amn on the force? A. I have onldy
one son, ens chmild living; we halve bdeight in the famaily and
there is only one living.
Q.,Only one living, and he is on the force? A. Yes.
Q. What is his name? A. Lawrenmoe A. Hogan.
Q. What precinct is he attached to? A. He is in the Eleventh
now.
- Q. Now, you swear thant you never paid or deliveured to~ ealy
person any money at abo~ut the tine of 3 our smn?s appo~ninxes
to tie police? A. No~ sir I did notQ. Hgave you seen any person since you have been subpoemmsed.
to ooaje too thbis investigating xwnmuittee albint lid mat-ter? A.
Yes; I hlave.
Q~Have you talked with any person about themat?4.
have talked with them that I tihought It was a very singir




909
Wding I should be brmugth on this ese; tit Is ahot nl I said
about ki
Q. To whom did you talk? A. To a couple of customers who
As~~ in tie shop.
Q. Did you apprehend wbazt you was gorig to be queslioned
ou.? A. No; I did noL
Q. So -ths is the first thne you ever beard the rejort,tl,
umoey had been paid to any person at the time ot yaou mmi's
app oimnitent? A. Yeswsir.
Q. Did your wife pay any money? A. Not that I know O.
Q. Had she a bank amcjoount ait the time? A. No sir.
Q. Neither bank or deposit a moorimt? A. No, sir.
Q. If she bad pafrd any money would, you ae Iknown it? A. I
think I would.
Q. Has there ever been  iytbing said about it in t9we famniy?
A. What is that, sir.
Q. Hs thiere anything been sabd oaixut money being paid in
the family? A. No' sir.
Q. Did you bomrow aay nyoamey from any person at that tim?
A. Nbo sir; I did not.
Q. Did your son boarow any money? A. I ooaud not wwROer
that question.
Q. I ask you if you know? A. I don'tknow.
Q. Did you pay anpy persan  any debts after your son waas
appointed on the police force? A. Debts of what, sir?
Q  lFor anything? A. Yes; I paid debts for meat.
Q. When was your son appointed? A. I guess he is about
two years and a half on the force now; I am not positive.
Q. As near as you can recollect? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know how long it took your son to get on the foree
fromthe time he made hisfirst appication?  A. I think it took
him over a year.
Q. Hasj your son been talking to you sdnce the appointment of
this coumfittee about the Senate committee? A. He has been
talking to ae as far as he wanted to know what I was sunoned
for; I told him I did not know; I could not say.
Q. Did he live with you? A. He liveed in my house; he don't
Iive-with me.
Q. Is he married? A. Yes; he is a married man; he has three
children; that is, he had three, and two living now.
Q. Id he ask you if you had been subpoenaed? A. I told
him I was; he did not know anything about it until I told him.
Q. You hbve heard some testimony here about persons paying
$300 to get on the police force? A. Only what I heard to-day.
Q. Do you read the newspapers? A. I was here last week,
bnt the court adjourned.




91-0


D~ id you read tbriwsaes of the testimoy, OOMntallu
~te~tioy?   &li ohoInkdid.
Q. DId you know anythingata1aotathghvigbe
said here as to policemen having to, pay ti6 get Qlthe policee
ftrcee? A. I read the testimony of Oommissioner kcO~ave; that
Is all I did read.
Ddyuand your son talk over it? A.. oSir.
Did IO understand you to say that tIs's tAe, 1~t, amn
yuever heard a word about your son having to pay money t
pie persons to get on the force? A. I never heard of his pay19 any, money to Wt on the force.
Q.Thils is the firift time you ever heard it stated? A. Yes, Sir..In this court to-day? A., Yes, sir.
What was you going to say? A. I was going to say, before
be Wo on the police force he worked with me in -the sbo~p.
Q. And was paid by you wages, I suppose? A. Yes~, sir.
y Ohairman LexowQ. You said his application was pending for a year before ft
uas acted upon? A. I think so.
Q. Do you know whether anything was done during that year
to progress the appdication? A. Wo, sir.
Q.Did you know under what circumstances the application was
Jodaly grantedf A. I supposed -through, his smartness, pasaing
'Vietvil service, etc..
Q.He had passed that a year before? A. Hie passed it when
lie got his papers sent in; yes, sir.
Q. Did you see hmat that time in communication with anybody in connection with the police department? A.No, sir; I~
did not.
Q. Did anybody come to the house to see hint about his appliieation? A. No, sir.
q. Do you know wheth~er he had anybody paxticularly friendly
kU him acting a6 his agent in the police department to' secure
ffis appointment? A. I never heard of anybody.
Q. Vid you apply fur him? A. I signed his application..Did, you go to the police department and try to, get him
appointed? A.. I never did, sir.
Q. Do you know who did? A. I do not
Q.Do you know whether he did himself'? A. That I could not
answer; a man certainly i's anxious to get on when he makes
his application.
Q. Is there anybody in your ward or yowun eledaio~n liettriet that
seems to have special Munlleue with the police departraent? A.
That I don't know; because I told yo'u, Senator -
Q. Just answer m~y question foer the time beig, awds then youi
can explain afterward; did you know at that time whether your




som  wa ibaving any oonmmumiction wit]h aybody in your di
trict for the puilr3e of havinag iha ifiuenoe to sewuxe the appoint'
ment? A. I did not
Q. You never saw anbody oming o        oue to see hima
A. No, sir; noody ever came to my hiose to speak to him- 
Q At the time he was ini yowu employ? A. Yea
Q. Never viaited your shop? A. No.
Q No political leader or influential man in the distict visitel
yor shop at that hime? A. No polital leader ever came to me
because a man that sticks to my, busiess and don't iterfere
uiMci. into poiticsQ. Did your son never meniion im owavermatiro. with you the
name of any person there who assumed to have influence witk
tihe police deartent? A. He never di
Q. Id he keep yoa postel from time to time how him a-pliear
io  was being treated? A. Well, I thought myself that it was
quite a long time from the time he made his applkaliatio  to fh
time he got appointed.
Q. Didn't he give you an y reas  why, Mas pp'liotioB wo
delayed? A. No, sir; he did not
Q. Did you have any conversationt about it? Al NWo
Q. Did you ask him why, he was nofl getting hI ap te
A I did not, By fenabior O'Comnno, Did you mentioa te matter ait vi to him?,By Mr. Goff:. Is it not a fact that your sol was neariy to years fira
the time he first made his aplicatio  until he got his appoint.
menet? A. I coud not say; I say it was over a yer; I don't
know how much over.
Q. Will you. refresh your menry and say whertfhe it was not
ffiree yea? A. I could not refesh my memory and say it wa
two years, because it was not; it was not over a year.
Q. And duting that year your-elf and yotr wife and your son
iad mamy converations aibot hia a   lpontmiet? A. Well, he
did not get his apointinent then
Q. You say that he was appointed n his me mri? A. Well,
lieQ- Parnm me; can you tell the committee wlat W.:
sioner it was that appinted him on his mrit?, I
don't know exactly what commissioner.
Q. You never heard which, did you? A. No




912
q. The oomffee wouid like to know his name a      I tap
p   te there was more t.tanm oe ioomeoa=tMer.
Q. There ore f  ''Or on oina? A. Ye
By   Eaaa    Ie;r                          --    __
Q. Don't lyo know who    ggestedb    ame fr-aiP
among the com' sio ners? A. I do not, st
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Do you know wiat anmii    oner it waa he alied to i
tle first inacc e to get anto the forM-  made hs applicatiou?
A. I don't kno'w the                 Y.:_-~i_-'-  exaotiy.
Q. Di you hea   is niaime? A. I don't know.
Mr. NieoL — Can not all these fact be baartd   by feaing
the am? That is al Mr. Hogan.
aMr Go&- Is Mr. Keilly in aourt?
Cairmsnai Lexow.- Is Mr. OKeCly in court? He seems not to
be.
Mr. Goff- He was in cowt this morning, lMr. Claiirman.
M., Nic-fl -Is there any reae  wbr Mr. O'Kelly should be
in.rot; ha he been subpoenad?
Mr. Goff. — We i have not got any wBke wtessesi o0 hand beoaose we did not subpoena thren becase we thought we would
ue up unti4 the rece  fin   g,  Mr. Moave es
MT Niol.- I will notify. him. I have aready done am
A[ernmo   session,.May 29, 1894.
M. GQ. —Mr. ChairmaB, I have been informed by Mr. Nicoll
t.      e CominissiUner McClave is indisposed and not able to be here
tis afternoon. Of course, I have prepared for his further examination upon matters of importance, as I deemed it, and I have
found considerable inconvenience in having witnesses sub_gmaes d here. In the eaAy, days of tlhe exaitioB, becaue
after they were subpoenaed and their presence noted in the
court-room here, they have been followed to their homes, and
one f   got away from New York, and others I have reason to
lieve have been tampered with. Teere are men in the courtroom, I am informed, Mr. Chairman, whose duty is to sit here
and watch every witness in this court-room and report who they
are.
Chairman Lexow.- Do you know who they are?
Mr. Goff.- One has been pointed out to me to-day, sir. I think
I can point him out now in this court-room. If he is not here, he
was here. Who is the man that was talking to you. Mr. Cente!
before recess; who was the man that talked to yon t
Mr. Center.- I know him, but I can not call him by nao.m
M. Goff.-Do you see him in court now t
e. Genter. —; I do not see himh




913


Mfr. Goff.- T merely Wish to call 1o your attention the 'ifflffcul.
ties we have to contend with in procuring tle attendances of wAt
nesses before this committee. I assure you, gentlemen, that they
ha-ye been more than you- could possfibly understand. Those who
are serving the subpoenas and endeavoring to repich the preence of the witnesses, their presences is noted 'in the neighborhood. Word goes around that they are there. They are accostA~
and they are watched, and it is almost a physical im-possibility to
get to the witnesses. I am -not discussing any-thing or blamming
any one, but presenting a state of facts, M1r. Chairman. As longI,
as Mrt. Mc~lave is not here. this afternoon, of course it breaks up
my Intended cross-examuination of Wr. McClave on -certain points.
I have one or two witnesses w~hich I will examine, and take up
our ti'me the best we may.
AMr. Nlicoil.- Now, with thie permission of the chairmafn, on
Mr. Goff's notifying me this; mornin that he wished Mr. McClave
in attendance this afternoon, I telephoned to the office to that
effect. Just as I left the court-room I received a message which
I coimmunicated to you, whom I met on Broadway, that Mr.
Mc(Yave had been taken sick while at the board meeting this
Morning, and had gone homin to bed, and was under the care of
a physician, and that under those circumstances I would limmedieitely call a telephone to OoaMmissioner Sheehan to come down.
Commissioner Sheehan stated that his presence was necsesary at
the board meeting, because this was their board meeting day, and
It required thfree of tbe commissioners to oonstitute a quorum, but
he would 'come,7 and he has come, and is here, ready to be
examined; but it seems to me, in view of the last observation of
M1r. Gooff, which I disclaim and resent, in regard to the bIterference of witnesses, that -no higher duty could be imposed upon tlue
committee than to immediately investigate that charge of Mr.
Goff's and let him call witn~esses f~or the purpose of esifabli,%hing,
if he can, that any single witness that he has ever called has
been watched or shadowed, or tampered with in any way. II do
iiot believe it is so. I know it is contrary to all instructions given
— my promise to the committee itself.
Mr. Go-ff.- I have not the slightest doubt of thart.
Mr. Nicoil. —Whlch I am sure I have facilitated in every, wayiy
the getting orf witnesses; and I do not believe it is a poxfible
tVMr; aad I wish the committee would iuvieftigate that.
Me~. Goff-Mr. Nicoll hasn't any knorwledge oif it, I do nub
Senator Cantor.- If that is so you should subpoena and moaske
the inquiries of tho-e. w,~ho would embarm'ass the inquiry.




914


Mr. Goff.- You can appreciate my difficulty in bringing am
here to be examined.
Senator Can~tor.- If our men have been shadowed, I tb~ink M
In your business to give us the evidence
Mr. Goff,. — The difficulty is if one of my subpoena serves
comes on the stand he is known to every mne that is shadowhgq
them in the city of New York.
The Chairman.- I do not think it would be proper to sidetrack this committee; I think we all umidertand them situation
with reference to that.
Mr. G off.- Now, gentlemen, we will call Mr. R1eilly.
Mr. Nicoll.- How about Oommissiorner Sheehan.
Mr. Goff.- I do -not desire to take up Commissioner Sheehan's
ex   iation at this late hour of the day; I propose to have the
ple-asure of his company for a longer period of time.
Chairmau Ljexow.-.In that case, Mr. N'lcoll, It would not be
tecessary for Mr. Sheehan to remain here.
Mr. Nicoll.- I wish I had known this- so that the publio b'i*ness would naot be interrupted.
-Mr. (loff. —lI told you in the corridor.
Chairman Lexow.- I requested Mr. Nicoll to have Mr. Sheehan
here so the time would be takeni up in a comfortable way; Mr.
N~icoll was kind enough to have him sent for; but if. yotL are not
going to take up his examination the commissioner need- not
remain here until we want him.
Mr. NicolIL- Will you state when you do want him?
Mr. Goff-.I will give you. itmely notice.
ChaimnLexow.- As I understand, It will not be necessaq
to subpoena any of the conmmissionera.
Mr. GGff.- No.
By Chairan Lexowi
Q~ What is your name? M. Pwtrick Rtyali
Patrick Ryan, called as a witness, on behslf of -the Stsket, feIdg
duly s-worn, tesitiled as folbows:'
Direct-exmnton by Mr. Goff:
Q. Where do you reside? A. I reside at 47 Jane shreef.
Q. Give your full name? A. Well, I very seldom, Mr. kA~
U~e my second name.
Q. Well, use it? A. Patrick J. Ryan.
Q. Anud where do you reside? A&. No, 47 Jane street
Q. Jane street, in this city? A. Yes.
Q. That is over on the 'West side? A. Yes.
QHo1w long have you resided there? A. I have redded ta
that neighborhood for 14 years; not in that house, though.




Q~ How longlhaveyo reiedinte city orfNew York? A. 133
the, ity of New Yoik I have been 17 years, and 13 yeashI
BRmoklyn.
Q~, Anid 13 years in Brooklyn? A. Yes.
Q.Tat is alxout 30 years atogether in New York and Brooklyn? A. Over 30 years; I give you the nearest figure.
Q. What is your business? A. I am employed at Uxe carpet
Q. Whiere are you euinployed? A. I would sooner notL state.
because I am employed in that house for 20 years, and would
sooner not bring my employers into this thing at all.
Q. You, were employed in the house you are now emplydi
fbar 20 years? A. Yes~ air.                       lydi
Q. You have been employed in the sam~e position for 20 years?
A. The same position exactly.
q. Hlave you any objection to stating to tIhe Senators the namne
ofyour emplIoy'er? A. I will do, sot; I know Mr. Bradley of old;I had the h~Ono ot voting foir Mr. Bradley twice in Brolokiyn;
(the witness states the naane of his employers to the ooummittee.)
Q. Now, -so that you will not be mimirderstood you might state
wliat objection you had to stating the name of yo<ur emiployer;'
do you, think it wouild emperil youw eitw~iflon,? A.. I amn afraid
ac~ sir; because he iW a man that dont wish to get his nam e la
th~e paper at all.
Ohairinan Lexaw.- That is satisfactowy.
Q. -Do you know Sergeant Mc~artney? A. Very well1 sirn
Q. Did you see him laitteri? A. I saw him last Sunday.
Q. Go on and tell the oomnmittee what took~ place between
yourself and Sergeanit Mc~artney on least SKI-nday? A. On last
BSwnay afternio-GA between 1 sand 2 o'clock, as near as I cani
recollect, about half-past 1, just alter I got my dinner in my own
house, as I Live amund the ootrner fiion Thighth aivenue &and Jame
Btreet, I stepped around the corner just had a wailk arournd; I
walked around on Eighth avenue from my own hotie; I met with
a man on Eighth ave-nue 'in front of the hoise called the Village
hotel, e nd I spoke to 'huim about a anuz of the name of Jvhn
arithat hias been, calptain of that district.
Q.You, Mean political captain? A.. I dom
Ry Chairmna Lexorw:
Q.You don't mean pollee capftai? A. Not sir; polWflea oata
tah-i,j or cap-taln of the disfriet.




916


By Mr. Goff:
Q~What o uaiizatimn is he in? A. Taimnaay Hall; I said to
Stafford, "1I think it is a  rmflIIamany Haill should tiurrn dowa
that industrious and hard.'working man, mud give it to a manl
here ltMpv is not uaturally qualified to that position, if theme in
aqx position attadifed to it- 
Ay Chairmrn. ILexowQ. What positio? A. neht i~s, ca~p4ai oif the di-strict; I
hadn't the words well auttere~d wh+-n 6ergeant MeCwatney steppc d
up i~n front of me and slapped me on the face repeatedity,, like~
that (indicating) did not hiurt me, yo'ur honor, at all; -but slapped
me, degraded me before passers-by, a man of my age; I felt aiwgriyj
but could not reset the insult; he was a big athete, the man
that wee nearly the killing of a prisnonr in front of Jeftersun,
Market before Judge Voorhees; I went down to the Ninth.
police station and saww an officer in chaige of the station-house,,
called Ser~geant 'liuker; I stated, my case to hiaudi Sergeanb
'Thicker synipath~ized with me, but said, "1Mr. Ryan, in the absence'.
of your having -no marks I can not send ain officer out and curresti
him, hut if you did I would dog it if he was 20 police sergeants; "i
he told me to go down to police headquarters; I went down therc~
and was shown in-to a place where there WIs a caipt~ain, I think-iV
Ic~an  not distinguish  a   captan  from   a  sergeat; Ii
don't know enough about the matter; he was sitting miz
aL chair and reciliminig off~ like ti~s (indicating) and'.
sadt "Wbaht do you want," I saad, "I don't want anlya~
flaing Ifrom you in particular; I coame here to make a
complaint; " "1Well what the hell is it? " he says. I said, '1 I don't
think you ame in a fit mood just art this minute to receive ani
complaint, and I don't tell you my business," and I walked otitt
and was afraid, of him, and was at raid of being looked up; I corn
suite~d my own ldea~, and yesterday morning I waited un-til I
thought the judge in Jeff erson Mwrket would have time to 1heazx
me, and I went down and mude my stra~einernt as I had, to you,
gentlemen, now; and I tod him I wa.ntmed a waxrraim out againe4
Sergeant M oartrney' for esmeeting mie ~on the public sftwets; he
said, "Have you any witnesses here?" I saLid, "'No, sir; I h-aie
not; I am willing to make the statement I stated to you and
swe-ar to A;" "Well," he said, "I ican niot issue a warrant on suicb
a statemet; you hiamv got to bring evidenie to prov hie striw~l
you; I said, " That is the most cmrnrous pr'ooeeding I have known
in a court, of justice; 1 am willing to swear to my evidence, aimi
the evidence will come on- the trial if I have it;"1 and he al-LJdl




917
WI wal ztot beAlevie yJ df   f know you; " I said, ")onS yupI
issu a warrant fr peoe whom yqu doxa' know? he saiJ, "
will lsue no wat'rat; he can get six ta he never sa    p,
while.probaibly, you wil get two I* swear he struck' yo-;" I
said, Very likety; lhave yot seen him lately?' Vyeay wdell," 'h
said, -You cam nob get any warrant here;" I said, the next
moment, "I will write down ito Mr. Goff, thie wunsel for tie
investigating coomniitiee that is going oa here, and will state my
grievane to him, and let it come efore the pubio, and let him
be the jde between McOartney and   ysef; and I walked ',x
of thie   -ouse; I thinkyur o, it was one of the greatI oosd,  audl I dasl    Snda- -      e    t       outraes
for this Ll athlete to step up and strike a man like me, old
cnough to-be his faither, in the fae,
By Mr. Goff
Q. What did he say when yoiu Wtack him? W. e maeinU
of some kind erre k, that thle police does make uw, T Yxxi mnti
hte said, "Yon damned mut;" I dmot know whet it means, biUd
it is some slang pireoogy they mnike use aof
Q. Did he ask you what did you do or toy against Tamnmny
Hall? A. He did.
Q. JStS wMtf did he msy?  A. He didnt meitiion Ta ummany
HfOU, Itft Lea wanted b know whiat is was my business what they
done; I don't know that he eve mntined.anmamun    Hall; I
menetiond it, and he wanted to k.ow wtat it was my bsiniess
wrat tihjey done; and I said ft was my b,     and' I had a right
to express my opiuaion aiti the maer, as any aitizen in the lamnd
Q. Wlat tmie i thile 1:c wm/it? A. It was about' haM.
pastt 1 in thle aftenoon   as ner as IT wod g~es) it was innim
'diaty afiter dimner. 
Qo Oanthe stidhe  m? A. On-% Watwaft
Mr.           t Gt-  i alL
Q. Did you ayu a  ay oomnpiai no fe police eoamlsIneiT
A No, sir;I di4ot
Q. Well, after yr had    t the   iee coiur, and a warrait
was refused you, did yp go to the 4etrrit att eleys omie e a.l 
makce apieoation to goat   g',iM 1y?   A. NW %; I di tot,
because the crime wiold iot adiA 4  going betwor tbe p#al
jury.,
Q. Wla ann asault? A. Yea
Mr. Nicll.- Oh, yes.




918


Sematoxr O'Connor.- Not~ without a certificate of a mnagitrate.
~. Yoau MMd not go orver to, the district awtityney? A. No; I did
nVL
Mr. NlodlL- We amr all agreed on it he~re, that -there axe odaer
E~tan ~r~sthat hia've juriadictiom 6f migdemeanors, thiat is *Le
heme
f~Wois Lri? A. He is a man I have known casua~ly
for a good many years; as I told you, he is captain of the district;
that is about as I know; I don't know wh-at -he does; I know lit
has been a captain of ths district.
Q. ts he an old friend of yours? A. Not any more so than Mr.
241co11 Is; just slimply met him as 1 have met you, often, and
spoken to you.
Q. Why did you take such an - are you a politician? A. No,
ai-I never earned a doallar from polities in my liffe; I ni~kem~y
livng by a mercantile community.
Q. You take an active interest in the welfare of your outy?
A. T take an interest as far as the ballot boxi is colncerned, znd
always did.
Q.Do you belong to any organization? A. None whateverw.
Q.You are an independent? A. I am an independent man.
Q.I think you are a Democrat? A. Yes, sir; I am a Demoramt; and I often got down on my knees in Brooklyn and prayed
to see the day we had a Democratic administration in Washington; and norw I go down on my knees and pray, "Father, forgive
me; for I knew not what I done."
Q.As I understand it, then, you take only the active interest'
in politics that any good citizen does? A. That is all, sir; to see
every man has his rights, whether he is Republic-an or Democrat,
as far as I can.
Q. Wat was your particular interest in Larkin? A. -Well,
nothing particular, sir; but simply it was just a conversation that
sprung up between Stafford and myself.
Q.Was Lark-in turned down? A. Larkin was not present.
Q.Was Larkin turned down? A. Yes, sir; if you put it In
that kind of a way.
Q. You took enough interest in Larkin to object to Larkin
being turned down? A. Yes, sir; that is right, sir.
Q. And it is only because Larkin was a friend of yours, and
you thought he was a good man for the position? A. He is -not,a friend of mine; we often had. a drink of beer together; and so
di McCartney and mysel-f drink together, but not on this
day, sir; I have not had a glass of beer with McCartney since l'e1
aasaulted that man in the Jefferson Market court'; I guess you
were district attorney theB.




919
( Did jyof dri4** beer with rarn? A. I have; Iat eloti~aa
I dr,    ik, two glasses of beer with him, on a oertain night
that t met him.
Q. 'WLe won't go into axticulars; are yOU in the habit of drinbing with Larkin? A.1A~o sir.
Q. Elad you been taig a drink with Stafford that day? AL
Not one iota.
Q. Not one, or with anyone else? A. —
Q. Where was this conversation between you an=d Mr. Stafford~?
A. It was wiht at the jancttion - well - there is no juxa4'on
there; e1t me see, it is on Eighth avenue, in front of the village
Hotel.
Q. On the street? A. It was right on the sidewalk.
Q. Was it a Quiet conversation? A. It was a quiet conveA
satiora until Mcartney interrupted it, and slapped me in the
face.
Q Did Stafford agree with you? A. Wel, I don't tbink k
expre~sed any opinion one way or the other; I don't thwini ha
would agree with my idea at all, because he was the old fiend
of Murray, who was appointed in Larkin's place.
Q. The faOt is, there was a disagreement between, you and Stford? A. No, sir; there was no disagreement; Stafford did nsat
answer 4lhe question at all. He did not say yes or no, or, fty
a,llIble in connection with what I said to him.
Q. ton did all the talking? A. For the time being; yea
Y, You did all the talking  A. Yes.
Q. Stafford stood and listened to you? A. Yes.
Q. And you were talking in a very mild and gentle way, quiet
way? A. Yes, sir; that is right, but expressing my onibuo about
this matter very forcibly.
Q. You were? A. Yes.
Q Vou are a imom of s&ung oahrpons, are you norP -  i1
&di't knew that I am what you cal a man of strong ap*96ional I
am a man thoroughly able to judge for myself.
Q. And when you have an opinion you excpres it freely? A.
I express It freely and vigorously.
Q.. And that morning you were expressing your opinion fre~Iyt
A. It was not the morning, but it was the afternoon,
Q. That afternoom you were expressing your ocpinion when
McCart came along? A. It is not McCarty, but MeCarten.
Q. Did he tell you yon was making too much noise on the high.
waty? A. No, sir; the lirxt intimation was a slap on each ehtee
and the next I heard, "What the bell is It our busixss."
Q. Without a word of notification by him to you? A. Wat a
2word, sir.                         -




920


9You hAd no, previous conversa~tion lkfween youa~fall? A.
Not-I had no couaversationi.
Q. Was be standing by listening to the conversation? A. I
would answer your other question:first; I had no other coinversation with him in the three minutes -probably four or fie minutes.
Q.Wa~s he tandxing b  and listening to the conversation
between you and Stafford? A. I could not say whether he was;
he must ha-ve been behind my back, and he came up and slapped
me in the face.
Q. Had you see hdim before? A. Not until his hands slapped
my face.
Q. Did you make any resistance? A. Not at all, sir; I would
like to; if I was 20 years a-go Mr. McCarten, big a man as he is,
dared not strike me on the sidewalk; but now I am getting old,
and dare. not strike a man like him; but I think what I do'ne was
the wises:t thing; and if I dared strike him, he would loiek me
up and have a good case the next mor~ning.
By Senator Bradley:
Q.He might club you.? A. Yes, club the head o~f mak, PW6
life isn't Rafe going aroumd the street.
BY Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You haveaP. strong prejudice aginst'tliepollce? X.1lNo sir; I
k~now some of the police force as fine gentlemen as ever I sa&-w,
but I nevrer tolerate a ruffian or a bully.
Q. You have only differences with individualis? A. Yes.
Q. ut have a good, opinion of them as a class? A. As a class
T don't know anything about them.
Q. But there are est-imable, men among them? A. Yes; there
is higrh and low degree in1 the police department; there are lots
of men In the police departmaent that I wmihld trust to every cent.
James O'Kellv, called as a witness on behalf of the States, being
duly sworn, testified as fcllows:
1)h'ect-examninaition by Mr. Goff:
Q. What~is your trade, Mr. Kelly? A. Shoemaker, sip.
Q. You are nort the Kelly that Granger referred to in his testimony, are you.? A. No, sir.
Q. Yhur name is O'Kelly? A. Yes, sir.
QWhere 'is your plae of busi-ness? A. No. 898 Eighth avenue.
Q.And your business is what? A. Well, I have a custom shoestore there.




921


Q. frow otng liave you been there? AX Four years last September.
Q. You are not a journeyman; you work for yourself? A. Yes,
ir. 
Q. Carry on business yourself? A Yes, sir
Q. And youemploy other men there? A. Two men; yes, sir.
Q. Do you know a man by the name of Arthur Farnhamm? A.
I know a man of the name of Arthur Freeman.
Q. Will Arthur Preemaa stand up; is that Arthur Freeman?
A. That is him; yes sir.
Q. Did Arthur Frea   visit your place here about two weeks
ago, or ten days? A. Yes; he did.
Q. Did he tell you what he visited yoA for? A. Yes, sir.
Q What did he tell you? A. He oaine in and rereesentet l Mn
self as being sent up to me by a man down town.
Q Yes? A. For to see about I giving him ideas about the
police force; I asked him who the man was; he wonuld not tell
me, but he is a friend of yours; when he told me that way, he said
that he would not give me his name or who he ws, when I considered that he wasQ. Please don't say wiat you onsider; please te us what
took place beaween you and Arthtur Feemam? A. Really, I
can not tell the whole of it, but I told him that if he came within
tie district, I could get a letter for hnm down to commissionersthat he could get hs aplication.
Q. What commissioners? A.. Not particular.
Q. DidiAt you memafion soise  artou  o   ioes 
LMD ND, Sk.
By (hairMsn TieXw'I
Q. You meant iti police ooni o        E  fl  i    c nBy Mr. Qoff:
Q. Did yoi ask hin how lokg he Mil been in New York? A.
Really, I couldn't tel that
Q. Didn't you ask him how lIig he had been in the city? A.
Perhaps so.
Q. And didn't he tell you he had been here about six monttis?
A. I could not tell thait, either.
Q. Doa't you remember that, Mr. Kelly; raise your face a
little, please? A. I do not.


L, I   116




922


By Mr. GoTff
- Dildnt yo. te      he would limw here       2 mriti S
A That I woildn't tel.
Q. Your memory fails yon there, does it? 4lt:.oes yes, ir.
Q. Did you aak him what he was doing for a lilvng? A. Y
I beleve I did.
Q. What did he tell you? A. He said he was a shiping clerE
for a man named Watson in Chambers street
Q. Did you ask him where be boarded? A. Yes; I did.
Q. Did you say to him, I understamd the situatim tlroagioly,
tibt if anyone hasm't got a pull it is no use to try to get on the
police force? A. I donat rememnber saying aaything about it
Q. Did he say that? A I couldn't really tell.
Q. Does your memory fail you again? A. Yes; I couldn't really
tell.
fril.
Q. And didn't you tell him when he said that," Yes; thit is
right;;" do you reminmber saying that? A. No, sir; I d4 not
Q. Now, did he ask you anything about the civil servie examn
iation? A. Oh, yes, sir.
Q. Wtat did he ask you about thie civil service exanination?
A. Well, if you would refresh my memory I might te it; rut I
eai not reaily remneber.
Q. I was not there? A. But you have hs statements.
Q. I have a memoradlumn of what took place between you;
didn't you say to him that the civil service examimnation did nof
amountb to aaything? A. No, sir; I did not
Q. You are sure about thia? A. I could not
Q. Didn't you say tbat you had men appointed on tie policP
that got low marks, and others did not have a pull that got
nearly 100 per cent. tlat were still on the waiting list? A. I
never said a word about titt
Q. Clear about that? A. Clear about thaak; positively clear
about that.
Q. Did you ask him whether he could write? A. Yes; I did.
Q. What did he say? A. He said that he was a college-bred
mani, and that he could get a good rating, ithat he was a candidate for West Point, but he badn't the pull behind him to gct
in there.
Q. Did he say ajytg about serving en the Columbian Guard
in Chioago at the fair? A. I suppose something like that; I
couldn't really tell.
Q. Didn't he say to you that he would be a little backward
about the other exaniinations; he was all righti for the phys'cal
ea.inuation? A. Well, he may have said -hat




923
Q. Donft you remember that? A. He may have said; but I
don't remember.
Q. And didn't you say then the whole thing was very simnpf
A. I may have said tat
Q. Did you tell him that all he had to do on the examiaa
was to add up and subsicet a few figuaes? A. I suppose saO
Q. Didn't he tell you he could do tlht all ri"gt, but he was not
acquainted with tfe city here? A. Yes
Q. Didn't he tell you that he had a fiend who in^tOmed him
that some of the questiois asked of eaalidates for appoinmtmeWt
on the police force were in relation to the location of certaia
buildings and puiblic plaices here? A. I dioE't know.
Q. Don't you remember him saying he was a stranger in New
Ycrk, and he could not tell places of intoeest a nd public buil
in.gs that people might inquire for? A. PeiBiae it may be ao
By Chairmnan Lexow:
Q. You remember he did? A No, sdr I don't remembier [$
it may be so
Q. len to your roHleection it was so? A. No; it is not my
reollection that it was so.
Q. Do you remembe giving him this little book? A. Yes, sir
I do, well.
Q. Just look at It? A. Yes; I knowz it
Q. You took that NNcok out of a drawer? 'A. I took that out o
the drawer; I bought that for five or ten cents and gave it to him.
Q. 'fs book is called, " The M'Nattmatta Guide, New York city
by BSerated Railroad; " and when you took tiso book: out of a
'twer, yoM told him that he woud' have to study up ths littl
book, san  learn the location of all the streets, and building
atrd theatres, et.? A. Yes.
Q. You gave it to him? A, Yes, air; I gae it to him
Q. And that was to prepare for the civil service exramBini?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, about the other questioas in the civil service examina
tion; did you tell him anything about them; questlois regading
arithmetic, or geogrphy, or things of that kind? A I don't
remember of telling him amything about it; I may.
Q. Don't you remember tellig him tihere migit be a Hfttfe
difficalty in him answering the questions? A. Well, yes; there
may have been that.
Q. Do you rermember, Mr. Kelly, saying to him, that the man
whi hail the right kind of pull it did not matter how he answered
the qnestions: hnt that the man who 1hrnn't tll -Q'it kind of




924
pufl, n mitter how lie answered Ote Goeefion, ie omad nof get
onl? A. I never sad a worod about it.
Q. You are clew ar oat that? A. I am clear about tht
(Q. Now, did you tell him if h mad matters all rigt with yq;,
tat yfoo catdd get the questions in advance? A. No, air; I did
not.
Q. Questions to be propounded on the civil service eanmina
ton ill advance? A. No, sir; I did not; nor they coldn't be' got
Q You say they couldn't be got? A. No, sir; they can't be got
Q. How do you know? A. I heard of it; as hearsay.
Q. Who told you? A. Many is the one who told me,
Q. Name me one? A. I could not name one now.
Q. Did you not inquire? A. No; I did not
Q. If you did not inquire, how is it you know the qustioins
could not be obtained in advance of the civil service examination? A. I heard it some years gone by in this way; that they
are sealed down in the printer's place, and sent up to the Cooper's
Union.
Q. Well, how did you come to get that information? A. Well,
I got it aboat four years ago.
Q. Alout how many years ago? A. Four years ago
Q. From whom? A. From a man that is dead no*; th;e man I
bought out the place from.
Q. What was his name? A. Flynn.
Q. Did Flynn interest himself in the business of securing
appointments on the police force? A. Well, ie might; he might
have.
Q. Wasn't that the subject of your conversation with Flynn
when he spoke about the difficulty of obtaining the questions?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. iidn't Flynn at the same time tell you that no one, not
tnside, could get the questions through a friend? A. No; he
never told me a word about it.
Q Was ft not in regard to getting appointments on the police
force that you spoke to Mr. Flynn when yout bought the place out,
from him? A. No; I was working for him on time, and I heard
him speak often and often to parties that were in and out there.
Q. You worked as journeyman to him? A Yes.
Q. And you heard him speak to parties coming in and oun
there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they parties coming in to get their shoes mended T
A. I suppose they were. 
Q. Did these parties talk about civil service  amination?
A. They did.
Q. Is that a common thing forpeople who come in to gt their




925
(
sboes mended to talk about it? A. There is scarcely a location.n the city but there is a man going up ftr a poition, and their
busides takes them into a shoestore once In a while, and they
begin to talk about the civil service affair, getting on the police. And the difficulties of the civil service? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your predecessor, Mr. Flynn, told you that these ques
tions were al sealed up at the printers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And delivered to Cooper Union? A. Yes, sir.
9 Did he tell you how he knew that? A. No; he did not.
Do you know how he knew it? A. I did not; he was a man
Qt wounla not let you into any of his secrets.
Q. IPhat was one of his secrets, and he let you into it? A.
He Ald net; he let other parties that were in there.
-. They were zandidates for the police force? X I don't
klw that they were. Were they there to gt their shoes mended or ask questions?
L I didn't mention the subect; It eard the subject talked about
Q. id you ever see Fn     in possession of any civil service
papers? A. Yes, sir; there was one laid around there
Q.  e ha one? A. Ee had one.
hat w        used as a saple? A. I guess so.. A sam    to various men that came in to ask questions
about fhe pdkle ft        I S wft Isy tat
qi Yosan         e i t    'oe?  A  Oer saw hbm take t ut
By OBairman Lezw. Wat do you mean when yom saw It was used as a sample 1
A. I didat fy thUat
You said it was nued frequent4 as a sample; what did you
Seal when you used the woFr  amnie   A. I never said tt.
Q. Was it used as a s     t. I  ver see him m   t ft
anything at all.
By Mr. (Sof:
Q. Where did yQu see t? A Ml his ol    e &
Q. Tx his old del? A Yes, and it was there up t a sahl  tlne
ago.
Q. Did you take that out and show it to Arthr Freeman? A.
Idid.                  i
Took it out and showed it to h   as a m     Omple of the paper
he would have to write upon, and the answers he would have to
ghr? A. I did; yes, sir../ Now was there a date upon that paper? A QOh, realy I
could not say. 




926
Q. Dont you khnow as a fact that that was last year's cdvl vs
Iee examination? A. No, sir; it is foir years ago.
Q. You are clear about that? A. I am clear about that
Q. Didn't you tell him it was last year's civil service eaminin
tion? A. I am most sure I did not,
Q. Are you sure it was not last years civil service examinatio
& I am almost sure I did not.
Q. When you say you are almost, have you a doubt about it?
L No; I have no doubt about it.
Q. You say positively it was not? A. Positively it could not
be last yearns.
Q. Positively you did not tell him it was last year's civil serv
ice examination? A. I did not.
Q. Did you say anything to him about the simplicity of the
examination that he would have to go through, telling him it
was simple? A. No.
Q. Don't you remember poiting to a little boy eight years o1d
saying that boy there could go through an examinatio!? A.
Never, sir.
Q. Did you say anything to him that a boy eight years could
go through an examination? A. No, sir; never.
Q. Did you ever mention a child going through the eamin
ieon? A. No, sir; never.
Q. You are clear about all these things? A. Yes, sir; I am
dear about all of those things.
Q. Do you remember telling him the names of the boildings be
would have to answer and desoribe? A. Well, perhaps I ma.
hive told him that
Q. Let us see; do you reaember mentioamng to him that the
Saooy Hotel would be enquired about? A. I cannt tell  ally,
I told him that
Q. And the Holland House? A. I don't remember.
Q. The Metropolitan Hotel? A. No, sir.
Q. And the Broadway Central Hfel? A. I don't reembn
mat.
Q. Do you remember saying anythdng about that? A. I maj
have mentioned the Savoy HoteL
Q. And the Broadway Tabertacle? A. No, I do not
Q. And the location of the various city offices; do you remeimber that? A. No, sir.
Q. Where the City Hall was, or the new criminal courts weSt,
k. No; I don't remember any of those things; nt anything of tbhA
smI.. Didn't you tell him that you had a friend in the eai
bn departnenrt? A. No, sir-; I did no&        - -




927


- Q. Dtdn' you tell him that if you gave him a note, sen he got
a tdard lower than what was required your friend im te
eainrato department corMd fix the s     for him? A. No,
sir; I never told him about that.
Q. Clear about that? A. Quite dear.
Q. Do you remember telling him any incidents or eases of men
who you knew had got on the police department and whose rating
was raised by your friend in the department? A. Never.
Q. Didn't say a word to him about any one you had got on the
police deypartmett? A. Never; I never got a man on the polte
Q. i did not ask you that; you did not say a woTd about any
friens you had got on the police department? A. o,.sir, I
ne'ges d&  for I never got one on 
Q Wll, did he ask you if it would cost anything to get ont
L Yee, si; I believe he did
Q. WIat did ycu say to him? A He said that he had $500 or
$600 in stock, oa miug of thiat kind of way, andI believe I
said that it would' ost h;ia smieting between $300 and $400,
or something that way.
Q. Did you ask hiM if he had the money? A. No, sir; I did
not; I told him I wanted none of his money.
Q. No, no; I know; you did ask him; you told him about $300
or $400? A. I suppo  I did.
Q. Didat you ask him if he had the money ini the bank? X.
No, sir; I did not.
Q. Did yu ask Mim if he ad anything he could tarn Ito
smoey? A. No; I never did.
Q Didn't he say sOnetfing to you abmt his having tie moneyt
W. Ye!, sir.
Q Wat did he say? A. Be aid he had     metng in so
stooBks or tba.t mt of way, ald he sai he wold se1 them and I
tod him, no; I did nt w 3 his m  y.
Q. 1So you remember the name of his stocks? A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't he tell youi that e id not want to sll his stocks
beeaose lthe maret was low just now:? A. He might have said
somethimg like that, because I told him not to sell.
Q. Didn't ke tell you he did not wish to sell his stok because
the market was low, and becarse he might not get on the polie
force; doint you remember hlym saying that? A. No, sir.
Q. Don't you rmemem r your telling him it wa not necessary
for hnm to put up the whole of the money on tarat ocecason? A.
No, sir; I told him I did not want his money.
Q. Didn't you tell hhm it was not neeasaW to pt* up the




928
whole of te money, just now? A I dort' kitw; I dxn@:
remember.
Q. You won't swear you did not tell him that? A. I wool
et swear aytbng of the like past with him.
Q. Will you swear it did not pass? A. I could njt swear
either to or fro.
Q. Neither the one thing or the otheri? A No, sir.
Q. Idn't he ask you if he would have to pay the maoney at
onee for his appointment? A. No.
Q. Did he make any inquiry on that subject at all? A. No; he
did not.
Q. Will you swear he did not? A. I will wear he did not.
Q. And didn't you tell him when he askdd you if he would
have to pay the mioney out at onee, and you told him it was not
neesiCsary to pay the wiole of tihe mcney at the present time; do
you remember saying something of that nature to him? A. I
don't remember telling him that I don't remember a word
about it
Q. You swear you don't remember it now? A. I don't renernu
bwit.
You won't swear you did not t       im hntm at? A. I wox.t
swear; I don't remember it.                        i 
By Chairman Lexow:         i! 
Q. It may have occurred, so far as yor  reoeletan serves y^o
aL It may wt have occurred.
Q. May it have ooonrred? A. No; I lont believe it eve
4rweerred.
Q. You don't believe it?. No.
Q. You don't know wietiier it ever dbd-o not? A. Nih
By Ma. Gorff.
Q. Didt you make an appointmeet wii mim to go 'her a
aeoird time? A. No; he said he wouM oome there 'hinself.
Q. Didn't you tell him the best way for him to do woud be to
come up to-mowrw, and you waou    t.hen give hrm a letter to
Commissioner MClave? A. No, sir; I never said I would give
him a 1etter.
Q. Did you say you woudi give him a leter? AL I saMd   I,woud get one for himL
Q. To  omiimessoner Mdcisv? A. Not to any commissioner in
partienIaR.
Q. Did you tell him yoa wood ge a letter to a commissioner?
A. Yes; I did.
Q. Will you swear yo      did mot mtenton Commissioner
'CIave's mame?     A. I wil; I did not me   aa a^y coMnnisiones 'a n.                      -       -.




- 929
Q Dida yon MeI him'fro&m whqml you were gong to get a letter?'
A. No, sir.
Q Well, who did "you, intend to get the letter fronm? A I
intede-d to get it from a ri*end of mine.
Q.. Who is the friend? A. He is of the name of Simonsos
Q. What is Slimonsorn? A. I can't tell you that.
Q. What is bis business? A. I don't know anything abiout Iba
business.
Q Is he engaged in bamsiews? A. I don't know aaiyhint abouthis business.                                --
Q. Is he       in politics?  I suplposes
Q. Don't you know? A. No.
Q. Did you erer hear? A. No.
Q. Did you ever hear? A.Yes; I did bear.
Q. What political party does he belong to? R. ITe beodnge to
th-e Republican party.                    /
Q What Assembly dietriet is he in? A. The Eighteeat&L
Q. Isn't he called a leader there? A. No.
Q. He is prominent, isn't he? A. I suppose he is.
Q& WIfhen you intended to get a letter frm- -your friend Mz.
Simolieor4 to what comnissefner did you intend to get a letter
to? A. I[ ~ not know what cwunissioner he would write the
Ietier tom
Q. You MdA some knowledge that Simnmson had some influence
with some of the comm-isioners, didn't you? A. Well, I had
a knowledge of it of oue;  but what ciommissixger it was I
could not tell.
Q. You knowing Mr. Simonson, he being a friend of yours, and,
knowing him to be prominent in the Republican politics of thmt
distriet, didn't yxu know what commrissionler he was likely W
have.Influence, with? A. Well, no; I did not.
Q You mean to tell lias comiimittee Mr. O'Kelly, that you did
not know to what commissioner your friend Mr. Simonson was to
give a letter of introduction to tbis man to go on the foree? A.
No; I did not.
Q. You are clear about that? A. I am clear about that.
Q. Well, you had no doubt aiboiat being able to get a lette.'
from Mr. Simonson? A. Yes; I would get the letter.
Q. You would get the letter? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have got letters from him before? A. Never.
Q. How did you knorw you wmould get a letter at that time?
Because I have worked f or the man, and he comes in and U am
most sure he would give it for mue.
Q YPo promised Mr. Freeman to get a letter from Mr. Simofrb
son without your knowing you would get the letter? A. Yes; I
lknew I would get a letter.
L.       117




r -. Ever ask him for a letter before? X. I never did.1
Q. Did you ever give him any money or consideration for
appointnent on the force? A. Never in my life.
Q. You never gave Mr. Simonsoa any money? A. Never; and
never received a cent of money.
Q. You know the obligation you are under there? A. I do
perfectly well, sir.
Q. You are a man of intelligence, and know what false swean
Iag is? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You inea to say now that you never gave Mr. Simonson
any money in consideration of anyone's being placed on the
polioe force? A. Never; never in my life.
Q Did you ever give him a present? A. Never.
Q. What? A. No; never.
Q. Did any money ever pass from your hands to Mr. Simoasomn
under any circumstances? A. Never.
Q. Did you lie to me last night? A. I did; I am on my oath
now, and you terrorized me into it, and it was a snare; my friend
Ryan brought me in to terrorize me into it; to say there was
State's prison before me if I would not swear a lie.
Q. You lied to me last night, didn't you? A. I did; I am on
uy oath now, and am telling the truth.
Q. You admitted to me last night you paid $200 to Simonson t
il I did not
Q. Are you lying now? A. No; I said it was less than $200.
Q. Y~u said last night it was less than $200? A. Yes, sir.
Q You admitted to me you paid $175 or thereabouts to youa
friend Simonson? A. Yes, sir.
Q You say you lied? A. I did.
Q. And you lied deliberately? A. Deliberately.
Q. And you regarded Mr. Simonson as your friend? t  He is
uot; he is not a friend of mine.
Q. You said a little while ago he was a friend? A. I knew
idm in business transactions.
Q. And you deliberately lied about a man last night to me
you swear that now, do you? A. I do.
Q. And you came to me in company with a friend of yours.?
CL Yes, sir.
Senator O'Connor.-Why did he lie to you; what purpose had
be in lying?
Mr. Goff.-I am going to ask that, Senator,
Q. You came to me in company with your friend last night 
iA. Yes, sir.
Q. And tried to get out of being called before this committee T
'A Yes; just that.                      - 




7dI  you It was TijOsslble, didan' I?  X. -8ometh~ng Th
btiat.
Q. And didn't I tell you for aby evidence you would give here
before this committee touching this transaction that the law
protected you from any prosecution?, A. Yes, sir.
Q. And didn't I tell you the only thing yoir could he prosecuted
for would be for committing perjury before this committee? A.
Yes; that-is just it.
Q. And I told you if you committed perjury, and I could prove
It, 1 would send you to State's prison? A.. Yes, sir; that is right.
Q. And after I telling 'you that, I told you all the conmittee
wainted was the truth in this matter? A.' Yes.
Q. And so far as your testimony in the. case waa omncerned you
could not be prosecuted? A. Yes.
Q. And I to-dyoq to tell the truth? A. Yes, si.
Q. And with all that you lied to me? A. Y BVI did
1 By Ohairman Lexowt:
Q. Why did you lie?
Senator O'Connor. —Why did he lie fo ou?
By Mr. Goff:
IQ.Tell the gantlemen why you lied to me? X I wen* lIto tu~
office the very first day I was subpoenaed down hem; be i4
we iflI would not -
By Senator O'Connorn
Who told you? A. Mr. GoffI
8By Mr. Goff:
Q What is that? AQ You. brought me Into your offiC c ver
across from this court, and I went into his office, and-he, aske"me, sitting just face to face, now, he said, I have as much as wi*
send you to State's prison if you say what you say. f
By Mr. icoll:
Q. What? A. If you swear to what you say; "I will swear 6o
the truth," X said; "I never took a cent _of money; never. got an
appointment on the force, and will swear to that, never mind
what court I go into it-" and Ibave sworn it now, and it is tb,
fruth I swear.
By the Chairmans
4 Why did you tell Mr. Goff lost night that you l~a4 recd  mi


Ii 
-  I,;., 'I  I,




-?3S


r paa $iTS iu' n  the fLesactiaoan mien' 'ned; why did you We
hin that? A. Well, the way it was, with the two% I was there
and was bulldozed inti it, and was excited, and didnat know
What I was saying.
Q. Who bulldozed you? A. Both Ryan and Mr. Goff.
Q. Didn't Mr. Goff ask a moment ago whether or not he said
b you    and you admitted it-that no prosecution would be
had for any testimony you gave before this committee? A. Yes,
sir.
Q What bulldozed you then? A. Well, I was excited at ftih
time, and did not know what I was saying.,
Q. What excited you? A. I don't know,
By Senaor YCoor:. j[ Were you drunk? A. No; I am a n oevus dispolstilom.
By C arman Lexow:
Q Explain to this cmmittee why it was last nighit, apparenty
withorit any coercion, you deliberatly lied to Mr. Goff, and
to-day under oath, you state a set of circumstances entirely at
vaiaace with wiat you said to him yesterday? A. Yea
Q. What is the reason of tht? A. Well, I am on my oath
to-day, and I want to tell the truth; that is dIL
By Senator O'Connor: 
Q. Why didn't you tell the truth lasf night wdeM —you were
talking to Mr. Goff? A. I did not.
Q. Why didn't you? A. I don't know what is the reason.
Q Who did you see sine last night? A. I se   no one.,'By Chairman Le xow: 
Q With whom have you spoken a5oFt tis matter? 7. Not a
idngle one; I am here all day.
Q. Havent you seen, since you left Mr. Goffs office until you
nmre to the wilness stand here, haven't you seen anybody in
connection with the police department? A. Not a man.
Q. After you left Mr. Goff's office last night, didn't you see anybody? A. Not a oae.
Q. Havent you epoken about this matter to anybody? A. No,
sir; it was after 10  Solb& wien I got hone, and I came here
the fist thing this morning to see Mr. Goff; could I be excused
until Thursday.
Q. Have you had any aooversation before gonig into Mr. Gofs.
office that resulted in your deliberately stating a falsehood to
him? A. No, sir; I had no conversataon with him.




Q. Was it' becae yon wanted not to be called upon the
standas a witness here? A.Yes; tiat is the reasmm.
Q. And the reagoun you told Mr. Goff a lie last night was,
because you did not want to be called on the witnems stand
to-day; is that so; is fhat the fact?  A. Illustr4ile it a little
plain er tome.
Q. Is it the reason you told Mr. Golf a lie, is the reasoi you did
not want to be called upon the witness stand to-day; is that the
reason that operated upon you in telling Mr. Golf a lie last night;
was it? A. It was something in that line.
Q. If that was the reason, why didn't you tell him you had not
paid any money for apaoiitanents? A.. I told b~iiit before.
Q. You told him last night you had been paid money; why
didunt you tell him you had not paid him any mouiey; didn't you
know ftat lie would brizng yoh e the stand taee rteday? A. I
did not.
By Mr. Goff-.
Q You are under a snbpoena1 A Yes~ 0%I
By Senator O'OnnorQ. Didn't you expect when you tofd Mr. Golff you paid this
man $175; didn't you knio'w they would pmroduwe you here as a
witness to testify to it 'before the eommit~ee?  A. I did not
know it
Q. Didn~t you know you were giving him the very infornation
that would make you a neoeswry witness beforre this committee7
A. Yes.
Q Amnd now you conie here and say yotu gave hi im that iiiforonuation for the purpose ot getting off? A. I don't mean it in that
WSVI
By Mr. Goff: 
Q Did you lie to me any furtier last nlght ftlahi *Iiitit you
have stated to the eomfmittee; tell me any more lies? A. don't
know; just refresh my recollection.
Q. I will refresh your memnory! you told me how yon, paid tbis
money to Simonson; did you lie about that? A. Oh, yes; I did.
Q. You lied about that, too? A. I never paid him a cent of
money.
Q. When I askied you to state the circumstances unrder wlkil
you pad, this money to Simonson you told me the circumstances;
don't you remember that? A. I don't know.
Q. Don't you remember you told me you went to a certawi




V134


9


uor r store, and took b him to a liquxor gre? ~ I never wenit
into 'a liquor store with the man.
Q. Didn't you tell me that last nigiht? A. I may have told you.
Q. That was another lie, was it? A. I guess it was.
Q. Did you tell me any more lies? A. I don't know.
Q. Well, try and refresih your memory; did you tell me the
wine of the man whom yOu bad appointed on the police force?
A. I told you atiut the mnan that was apppofated, but I hadn't
him appointed.
Q. Was that a lie? A. No; he was on the police force there.
Q. Did you tell me the   e  the manthat waa appointed
at the time you gave Shmoansou the money? A. No,; I don't
remember.
Q. Will you sweaa you did not tell me that last night? A I
can't remember whether I did or not:
Q. There was your friend, any myself, and yourself presentX
A Yes, sir.'
Q I ask you if you did not tell me the name of the policeman
who was appointed at the time you gave Shinonson the money?
A. I could not.
Q. Amswer my question? A Yes; I will:
Q. Didn't yoa tell me the nane of the policeman, a rela~Rve of
yours? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was appointed on the police force at the time you gave
Simonson the money; didn't you tell me that last night? A. No;
I told you about his being appointed on the police farce, but It
never told you aiout the money.
Q. Then you did not lie' about the apoinltnent? A. Noi he
is a~ppoimted.
Q. What'name did you give me? A. Oh, him?.
Q. Yes? A. Peter Dun'can
Q. Did you tell me his trade? A. Painter; you, knew if your,
self before I tcd you.'
Q. Yes; I did; but you confinned it when I asked if it was true?
Y. Yes.
Q. And you told me the region where he lived? A. You told,
me; yes, sir.
Q. I knew that, too, and you confirmed it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All these things were not lies? A. No; that is true.- -
Q. And the only lie you wil stick to is about the payment of
that money; is that it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is the omily lie, and you-will stiek to that? A.It is
no lie.
Q. You will stick to that, year told me a lie last night??C I
told you a lie last night'.




(35
Q Youmnow umder oafh will stick to your assertion Uiat yisif
lied to me last night about paying the money to Simonson? AV
YON, Sir. 
Q. And you pin your faith on yoir solemn oath 'on that? 
Yes, sir.
Q. Have you seen Simonson since? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you heardfromhim? A. Nbo sir.
Q Have you commnuioated with him? A. Never.
Q. Where were you to-day when you were called in the o'urt?
A. Here; I was outside.
Q Do you remember tefling me last night you would sooner
leave here and go to the old country thea be called on th2 stand,
in this matter? A. Tes, sir; becanme I wae never on a stand.
before.
Q. Didn't I tell you that yen had nothing to fear; didn't I tell
you you would be a fool to throw up your buoinems here? A.
Yea, sir; you said everything that was said inside there would'
be secrecy. i
Q. You drew up the conversation, Mr. O'Kelly? A. No; you
drew it urp yourself.
Q. You drew it up; however, we are not dealing with -that;
we are dealing witih -your conscience; don't you remember o& me'
telling you you would be foolish to leave the ooruntry when you
have nothing to fear? A. Yes.
Q. And when you would be absolutely, protected for any testimony you might give on this witness stand; do you, remember me
telling. you that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And don't you remember me telling you in the first in.
stance that it was Simons-on whom you gave Ithe money to?
A. No.
Q. You do not? A. No, sir; but you spoke about his na-me.
Q. I spoke about his name.? A.'Yes
Q. And then you broke down and told me the whole story'?
A. 'No; I did not breiak down.
Q. Th-en you lied? A. I lied; yes.
Q. And you turn around and tell this comnmittee here, Mr.
(YKelly, that you lied to bring in tihe namae of an innocent man
into this transaction, and possibly leave hbni liable to trouble
and annoyance - Mr.. irnuonson -fow the sake of lying; you
lied about ani       man; is that so? A. Yes; it is so,
Q. And to save yourwself ygou lied about an innocent man last
night? A. Yes.
Q. What do you think of yoiursl4_ anyway? A. Well, I think
my-aelI that, I am all rig~t.,'




I   -                       '~~~~~~~~36~
YQou areallrigbt; I am almost              Mr. Bhirna n
and Gentlemen, to put to this witue  auio&er quaeston.
Senaktor O'Connor.- Go ahead.
Mr. Nicoll.- I will puft a. few question&
Mr. G4ff. —Help him out
Mr. Nicoll.- No; I will find out ail the %ets about IS
Cross-examinatin by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. I understood you to say, in the course of your examination,
t~at. you never was on the witness stazmd before? A. Never
was; no eir
Q. Had you 'ever been subpoenaed to be a, witness before?
A. No; never.               -
Senator Bradley. —Speak out; don't be alfrail to speak out,
anyway.
Q. When you received the subpoena of this committee, were
you -alarmed by being called as a witness here? A. Yes.
Senator O'Connor.- Mr. Nicoll, you must not suggest exceses
here; that is no sort of cross-examination.
Q. Tell us the state of your feelings when you received the
subpoena to appear in court here before this committee; and
by, the way, when did you first get the subpoena? A. I can't
really tell you what day I got it.
Q. it was last week Sometime? A. Last week.
Q Now, go on and tell us; you say you halve never been
subpoenaed before? A. I never had been subpoenaed before,
never was, and when I got that subpoena, it knocked me around
so much that it turned my work, so I couldn't do any work
since I got it- that subpoena; I am a nervous disposition,
and I had to throw up work altogether there; and I am around
here ithose four days past, and was not put on the stand, and
I don't know -and I got such a knocking around there1 of
course it is not - a strange thing to me, altogetherA
By Senator Bradiey,
q Whos knocked you around? A., By my nervous disposition,
sin
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You were atteading here four diayS and was not called?
A.~I~ No, sir.
Q And finally you went over to see Mr. Goff? A. Yes, sir;
a man camne to me ls~t night and brought me over to oee
Mr. Goff.




937- 


~Whxowa'she?     m.nan named IyamL
QWw he afried ofyous?      A.'Yen -and aIW~M
Q.A mut'ual friend? ~~ Yes, sir.
Q. ~Elad uu to that time, had any convermfAloziwith Mr..Goff? A. Yes, SWr; I biad a  rcon  utve   #            -r 1 a~ 
la'~ded here.
Q.What was thaet Gonversationm? 
~By Mr. Golf:
Q.Te firt day you laIded here? X. Il~e ilret da~y I landed
In this court h~erej
Q. What was that conversation? AT. Well, I showed the subpoena to Mr. Jerome here, and he spoke to Mr. Golf, and kept me
until he was going over to his office; I went over with himi, and
Mr. Golf sat there and told -me that he had the whole thig in
his hand, and that if I swore to what I said, that I never tookii tiold him there that I never took a cent of money, a cent of'
money never passed through his hands for an appoitntment ou
the police force; I never got an appointment on the police force.
Q. 'That is what you told me then? A. Yes.
Q. W'hat did he tell you if you stuck to that stoir? A. Rhe
would send me to State's prison.
Q. Was you alarmed by that? A. Certainly I was.
Q. Was that the reason why you told him what you told hip
last night? A. Yes.,Q. On account of his telling you he would send you to State'sprison? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And with those threats made In the presence of Ryan?, A.
Oh, no% Sir.
Q.. That was the other time? A. It was last night Ryan was
with- me.
Q.When was the da te you say Mr.'Goff made these threats.?
nLTe very first day I came down here; the day I was subpoenaed at 2 o'clock.
Q. Tell us exactly the language of it; what happened? A. I
could not tell you more forcibly than I did, or plainer;. those were
the very words that passed.
Q. Did he tell you he knew -what 41~8 he tell you in re~gar d
to Simonson, or what he knew or thought he knew? A. ~n~i
son was not mentioned any time until last night; but lie told
me that with the information he had that if I w~ould swear that
-Pat is what I told this man Freeman that da U.-Itld 
11a.




I
it
I
I
1'I
I
i
i'
I'
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II


938


knew he waS a sleuth man, as I said, to get information from me
concerning what I knew nothing about, and I told him any kind
of story I thought of; Mr. Goff said I was a monumental liar if X
said them things; and I did not think it was very gentlemanly of
him to say so.                    -
Q. Well, you took it of him all the same. A. Oh, I did.
Q. And there were some other gentlemen present besides Mr.
Goff and yourself? A. Yes; and a Mr. Moss, too; there was
three of them there.
Q. What I wanted to know was what had the conversation of
Mr. Goff to do with your finally making the statements to him
that you made last night, and which you to-day deny; were you
alarmed that he would send you to State's rion? A. Yes, sir;
and I considered what I said outside, not being on my oath, it
was a matter of no consequence, and I say it now; it is here I am
to tell the truth when I am on my oath, and I am telling it.
Q. Mir. Goff did not go through any ceremony to make ~roi
swear, did he? A. No; he did not.
Q. You don't understand he had power to administer oaths?
L He did not introduce any oaths to me.
Redirect examination by Mr. Goff: 
Q. Do you remember me saying to you last night, that if you
wished to tell the truth to me about the whole transaction, that I
would treat you as kindly as possible; do you remember those
words? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember me saying to you, that you were abso4
lately protected from danger, not a hair of your head would be
injured for testimony given in this court; you remember that?
'A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I repeat it again, don't you remember that the only
threat, if you call it a threat, that was made to you was if you
oummitted perjury before this committee you could be sent to
State's prison, and I would endeavor to send you there? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And if you committed.perjury, don't you think you ought to
be sent to States prison? A. I know it perfectly well.
Q. And that is the beginning and the end of what you call the
threats, isn't it; that is all the theats that were made? A. That
is alL
By Ohai-rman texow'   _.Werethere   any other threats made?.A I.w T
Senator Bradley,-Terrible threats, thosae




By Mr..- Goff.:
QNow, Mr. O'Kelly, T did not send,                - rh ~a  ~~A.
reter Ryan came to me and biroughrt ma,
Q.Your friend came to me? A.No.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q.Is this the same Rvan that wa* on t~e~ad'   ~    '.not that man.
By Mr. G-olf:Q. You have known -i-in for many years? A. Yes, sir.
Q.And you have esteemed him highly as your friend? K
Q. And the first time you saw him -you told huim you wece a,7
friend of his? A. Idid; yes, sir.
Q. And do you remember me saying to you, well,'Peter Ryam~ is
a nice man, and any man that is a friend of his, I believe ougbt
to be a -nice man; do you remember my saying that? A. Ye4, sir.
Q~ Do you remnember I said 'if you was a friend -of Peter IRyaxn4
YOU ought to be a-nice fellow? A. Yes.
Q. And without any request from me or on my part, your
friend- brought you over to my house last nigh? A. Yes, sidr.
Q. And 1 was about to go out when you came? 'A. Yes.
Q.And'I remained to talk to you? A. Yes
4Do you remember my saying, to you when you first denied
It -that when you were going to talk that way, that I wished to
have no conversation with you, that we could talk together MIn
open court; do you remember that? A. Yes.
Q.But If you wished to tell the truatl to me, I would lisen to
it and treat you as kindly as possible? A. Yes; I remember that
Q.Do you remember asking me o~n the way to the court not to
put you on the stamnd this morning? A. Yes; going in- your
own door.
Q. Do youreeme my telling you it was Jimp~ossble for me~
to avoid that, and that you had notlilg to-fear by telling -the
truth? A. No;- I a-eked If it was psible, for me to keep from
the stand, and you said, impoesgie,% and you said no more to
me then.
Q. Well, that. Is about It; and what yen ham46 said abboit
Wrthur Free=ans visit to you - A. Yes.
Q.Is as true as what you told me last night, Its It? A. Well,
as far as I can recollect; it is all I cain reeolledt about It-,
Q.Will you swear -you -did not ask. him to pay $50 as a pledge
of good faith that lie womild pay' up the balaiice of the money,you wanted? A. Yes; I did.


;,  I
I   I.   1 1




Q' Do you remember mentioning to him the names of any
other individuals besides-no; you did not mention Slmonaovj
did you mention the names of any individuals through whom
you had a pull and influence? A. No.
Q. Let us see; do you remember talking to him about the bipartisan bill up in Albany at the time? A. I never read any.
thing about it; I don't know anything about it; I did not
Q. Do you remember talking to him about the bipartisan bill
up in Albany at the time? A. No; I do not
Q. Do you remember when he made the second visit to you
that you advised him not to make the application now, but
there would be a new Republican commissioner appointed in a
day or two; do you remember telling him that? A. Perhaps I
might; I couldn't really tell.
Q. Do you remember telling him a new man was to be appointed? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you mention any names? A. Not that I remember
Q. Did you tell him you had seen a man of influence in the
ward or district after his first visit to you, and he told you not
to have him apply now, because the board might be changed
if the law passed in Albany? A. No, sir; I never said a word
of it
Q. Did you mention the names of anyone that you were told
would be appointed police commissioners? A. I did not know
anything at all about that.
Q. You are very clear about that, are you? A. Yes.
Q Do you remember telling him that one of two men would
be appointed police commissioners in a few days by the mayor?
A. No; I don't remember.
Q. Will you swear you did not? A. I think not, sir; but 
don't remember. 
Q. Don't you remember telling him that either John P. Mholland or Michael Kerwin would be the new police commi*
sioner? A. I don't remember telling him that
Q. Will you swear you did not? A. I will swear it
Q. Will you swear anything when you are in the humor; ti
that it? A. No; I think as much of my oath and my word as
you do.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Your word, too? A. Yte, siri
Q It was good last night? A. The word that was pledged to
me; he broke his word as well as me, alsa
By Mr. Goff:
Q. When you left this court this morning, you ikew yoi marigt
4...,..~




941


be called at any time this morning, and I told you? A. I thoughi
it was up at 12 o'clock.
Q. Where did you go? A. I went home.
Q. To Fifty-third street and Eighth avenue? A. Yes.
W. Who did you see on your way up  A. Not. any-me.
Q 1id you talk to anyone in the court-house? A. No, sis
Q. Or anyone at your home? A. No, sir.'
Q.Or anyone backwards or forwards? A. No, sir.
Q If you have nothing to conceal, why did you want to be
excused from this witness stand? A. I never was oft ai Wftness stand before, and I did not want to go on.
Q. lon't you know it is the duty of agood citiien to go on
the witness stand when it is required bty the law of the land
to go on the stand and tellthe truth? A. Yes; I know that
Q. And you know it is a good citizen's diuy to obey the laws
of the la nd? - A. Yes.
Q. And you know it is the duty of the itizen tO tel the t1th
umder oath? A. Yes, sir.
Q If you had nothing to conceal, why did you th-reMILsn last
ijight to leave this coumutry, and go back t  the o1d country, as
you call It? A. I have noihing to conceal.
Q. Why did you say you would leave sooner than go ontehe
sta d? A. Beause I never was on the etand- before, and did not
wont to go on.
Q. That is the only reasofl? A.Yes.
Q. You were willing to give uop your home here, and part with
your friends, and everything else, ratiheor than go on Ie stah d
A. I have no friends 'here.
Q. You have got your ielatives and relations -in the police.
force? A. Yes; he is on it.
A. Mid you were willing to give up all that and go away
moner thain go on the witness stand? A. Ys.
Q. And you say yod hawe nothing to conceal? A. Noithiag.
Q. And that is the only reason you tried to get off going on
the witness stand? A. Yep, sir; I never -was on the stand before.
By Senator O'Connor:
N
Q. When you went to see Mr. Goff last nlgtu, had you-made up
your mind to go en the stand and testify? A. Yes, sir; I knew
I was to be on It.
Q. At that time you made up yar mttnd to testify to what ymi
now say is a lie? A. Yes.
Q. And between last night and this xnoning, you made uip




' '.  f;.        6       / 42.,.,!
tell the truih.
j;    ~Q. That is your excuse? A. Yes
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Did you ever -acknowledge or state to any person  t you
received moey or paid money to any person to aid another in
getting on -the police force? A. I never did; I never did.
I-. Q, And did you ever acknowledge in the hearing of any persn
that you were engaged in the business of doing that thing? A.
|i    aNo, never; I never was engaged.
Q. And that you could get almost anyone on the police force
jI~.by paying the money? A. No, sir; it is an unfounded lie.
Q Or to any person? A. No.
Q. Just as unfounded a lie as you told me last night? [. A,     b hundred degrees more,
|;  >    Q. A hudred degrees more? A. It is a monumental one,
that one.
Q. It is suggested to me by my associiane, when you were
first asked it, where you went, you say you were oub in the
hall in the ~urt? A Yes; so I was in the hall.
Q. You could not get oit of the court house without going
through the hall? A. Nio
Q       Did you linger in the hIll? A Akbout.hat tim 
Q Where? A; Just along out there.
Q. What did you linger along tlere for? A. Waiting to
get back.
Q. How long did you linger? A. I got an offioer or some
|,  ~big man to say —te very man that you told to let me in this
orniaig ---tha  some man says t me I am a witness here
by Mr. Goff, and I wa.ft ot go in; I have no subpoena here;
kindly let me Un, and I camne and st.d there   long time,
and I had no breakast tis moanng aad ca       ham ne om get
my brekfast, and I cawne dw  to see you; and I turned around
and wet home to Fiftyl4ii   street and Ifighti avenue, and
ate my breakfast atat tht tme, aad came bak again.
Q. I suppose you were bhmoklUrg to yourself this morning
nabout my asking you those questions on the stand? A. It has
been on my mind since I got the subtoena
Q. I mean, yoe having lied to me and  ldged. me your word
of honor; you knew I would ask you those questions on the
a'end, didn't yo?  A Y; wliy did ymor a    a ma   up to
me tolie?      -




'     '  *',~ I  - /  ''  _  * ''.*. 8               * ";',  ''._S
Why Mr.  --
I thought I might as wea have my shae of it'
Q. You knew that I would ask you of those mastens on Whide
yoe lied to me last night? A. Yes; I was nmot srpe you wou
of aomwe, I did not know what yo would ask m,
Q You, knew I would ask you what you told me? A. NTowl
as a. gentleman, wiy did you ask me?
Chairmai Lexow. —Dont ask any q       astiona
Senator Bradley.-Yoq be quiet; do you rdaestnA3? Anwwe
the questkiws, and &don- put questiona
Mr. (o: —I think, Mr. (Charman, I shM     not infioet eW
preseans of this witess any lo ager uponn YwL  You mar I*T -
40Ow5Xb  "'- -4        - -.-.
frthM FP. Dennett, celled as a wittem  i    o tb. ft.A
being duly aworn testified as followa         -
i   Diret eamiao       by M  Golti
Mr. Goff.-I suppose, in the matter toimng  the preetbta 
n of tings rising before this comittee to a gr g   d cry
the sergeant-at — ns of this committee is authorized to take
sch action as he thinks proper on the advice of counseL
-Chaira   Ieexow. —I understand so
Senator OOonnor0a —Why, certainly.
Chairman Lexow.-Of course, a mattea of thafi  kdd world
* have to be brought formally before the committee.
Q, What is your Christian name? A. Arthur F. Dennet.
Q. You have been for some time employed in the Dr. Paab 
hurst 'Socety? A. I have, sir, since November last
Q. How long have you been in New York? A. Four years;
previous t that, during the winter, and after a year, he entifr
amount of ayear, I was there, and before that-five wintei
in all.
Q. And when, a few weeks ago, the work of, this investigatiot
started, you were directed to report to him? A. I was, sir.
Q. Now, do you remember being asked, under my instractionsi
to visit the woTksop of this Mr. O'Kelly, that was on the witness stand? A. I do, sir, very weiA
Q Can you give te committee the date you first visited him?
A. The first occasion was May 11th about 4 in the afteinoota
Q. Can you state to the committee what were your instructions
generally, not specifically, what purpose you had in going there?
A. To ascertain for the people the method of getting appoint'
merts on the police force in New York. 
Q. And I instructed you to go there? ~ You did sit:
i -    hAnd the nature of the questions to ask A? You did, i: }




944_
Q.No w, I ask you tpo tell the committee what took- place be..
tweenl this,O'Kelly, as well as youi can revoolect? A.. I made
othqr visits to Mr. O'Kelly; the first one was -on May 11th; 1
went to his place of business; I thinak there were two other men
engpaged in repirng ishoes; and I asked if Mr. O'Kelley was in,
and the last witness responded to that name; I told him I would
like to have a word with him privately; he motioned me to a
seat some way f rom the odiumh men, and asked me what hie
could do for me; I told him I was desirious of receiving an
appointment on the New York police force; that I had been
sent to him by a frend of mine; and he immediately askned me
who it was; says I, "This friend of mine told me several times
and impressed oni my memory not to reveal his name;"1 he says,
"Is he in the dry-goods business;"1 I told him he was in. the
dry-goods busiiness; he wanted to know if he was down on
Worth street, and then whether he lived up in that vicinity; I
told him "Mr. O'Kelly, I am in confidence of this man and will
not reveal his name;" he seemed satisfied with me then; he
asked ine how long I had been in town; I tol1d him six months;
he said, "1When you go before the board you say 12 months; and
I told him I understood it was necessary in New York- in order
to receive an appointment that one must have a pull; and he
assured me that was a fact; that the civil service examination
did not amount to anything; as he told me several times in this
interview, and the two sbsequent ones, that he had men ap-pointed on the police force who had received a low mark~ over
the heads of men who had received a high one, over a 100 per
cent. and was still on the waiting list.
Q. 'The men who were on the high list? A.. Yes; they were
wafitfi~ng; I told him IC did not know that I could pass-I could
pass the physical emnaon, but I was a. little in doubt as
to My familiarity with the city; 'rnd hie went to a desk and pro.
d~uced an examination paper. on the Civil Servkee Commnission
relative to the police a~ppointxnents; I think he said, it waq last
year one; that can be astthnd   loiwever, by some of thje ques-tionus whioh were on it; as to the location of the several housees;
the, Metroipolilian Ho~tel, Broadwaiy Central, the coronei?a office,
St George's churoh Broadway Tabernacle, and several others I
-do not remiember; and after a while he -I told bim I was willmngto do whatwas right, Iblad some money; hewanted to.kniow
if I had- the reiay money; I told him I could turn it into mnoney;
I had some stock; I mentioned severail railroad companies I bad
some. stock in, and I asked him if it was necessary to sell -the
vtock at once; he said it was not; that the next examination




I 


945
would be in January and that I voruNl bave to pay no moserl'
until after I had received my appointment on the poilee ferce;
at a subsequent; the next iaterview, he suggested thfat I h~ve
$50 of ready money as a sort of retaner to insaue my good fidth
in the matter~; he maid that on previous occasions he -had introduaced peo~ple to Comnmissioner Me(~aive and they did not kreep
faith; they had backed out of it.; by the way, the first few
minutes of the interview he said. "I wish yonu had beea hierc
before, because I could send you down wth a friend with a letter
to Mr. McClave " and] I was to gro the next day.
Objected to by Mr. Nic-bolIl an, h-earsay. i.1
Chairman Ljexow.- I do not think the latter part of the testi,~
mony is competent in. any sense.:
Mr. Nicoll.- Here are two men, come together, a detectiveand a shoe deater on Eighth avenue, and have a conversation..upon which one is, lying to the other, abmut getting on the force;~
ils that to be used as evidence in any tribunal against a pu-blic
officer; can it p~ossibly he, accepted by any tribu-nal?
Senator O'Connor.- It is not evidernce of anything; it is simnplyevidence that this man was lying.'
Mr. (affi.- It is sipilpy a contradiction of his statement
ch-airman Lexow. — I do not think an individual should be inodel
a,aget for a covraion of that kind, but let him state the
conversation. He need not. give the name of the commissioner
unless he directly -connects -the commissioner with it.
Mr. Go~ff. — Of course, you see, gentlenien, this is not
an invesigiatie against Mr. Mo~lve; he is not a defendaznt
here. This is an investigation to show you, genteen - to
enlighten your understanding of the 'condition of affairs touchig
the police department of this (fty Here Is a niaa pi on tke
stAnd and asked certain questodo: Do you state so and no? Didk
you mean so and so? He says no. JIn all the. oourts of law qFuestions of materiality may be contradid~ted, yes, answers to questions which are material to a point of inquiry may be contradicted,
and admissions of the witness made outside the court-room to'
Other parties may be s~hown to have been.made; therefore it is
sfimply~enough to say that this man had a conversation with this
O'Kelly. I submit here it is no question in your mind -that it
goes on record in a sense -of affecting Mr. McClave or in no way
impeaching him or in any way affecting him. I do not mean to
say that. It goes to make up the whole system.
Chairman Le&xoiw.- Do you propose to connect Mr. Mcclave,
with this particular transaction?
)fr. Goff.-.-It would be very unjust to Mr. McClave if I s'uggested sucoh a thing. I want to be fair to Mr. Mc~lave and everyL.    ~119




in                 \.
~i ~~ _~ -.~948
ody else. The simple matter is I received what I considered
~j ~-   authoritative information that this man O'Kelly had been doing
i8:     business for quite a long time, and I sent this man to obtaiq
what information he could. I regarded it as of great importance
to this committee. He is retailing information he received. It
this man had not been called and inquired into that question, of
course, I would not offer this testimony. This testimony simply
i:  ~   has a bearing upon the testimony of the witness O(Kelly, and
nothing more.
j        Do Senator O'onnor.- What do you say, Mr. Goff? For instance,
you put on this stand before this committee a witness who admits
J1  -   he is a liar, and every body believed it, I think, who heard him:
testify to prove certain facts; he goes back on the facts he was
t.   talle4 to testify. He admits he lied. Now, you put this very
t9 XOwitness on the stand to prove this man is a liar, and that every.
body knows he is; how does that strengthen the case?
Mr. Goff.- I do not want to bring coals to New Castle.
~  E      BSenator O'Connor. — I a man confesses he is a liar nobody,
t   t   htakes any stock in his testimony having any genuineness in It
Mr. MeClave's name ought not to be dragged into it
ji -      Chairman Lexow.-Why not leave the name of the commis.
sioner out?
Mr. Goff. —When the name of the commissioner may have been
mentioned by this O'Kelly, or the name of any individual outsid
of the commiseioner, do not mention the name
i:t         By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Go on and state your conversation. A. When I went to hmh
on the second occasion I was to receive a letter to this commissioner, but he stated that he had had a conversation - a talk with
this friend of his and who was a sort of go-between between him
and the commissioner, and who he afterwards stated was the
latterMr. Nicoll.- Objected to.
Mr. Goff.-Do not state the name.
Mr. Nicoll.-They have mentioned names and it Is on the
record here. The whole conversation was in regard to Commissioner McClrve. How can such evidence be received from the
lips of such a man? Here is a man on Eighth avenue and a
detective meet together and the detective goes up to deceive thii
man.
Chairnman Lexow.-There is no use of you summing up that
question. I think any conversation between this man and the
other witness is competent; but it is not necessary to drag any,




~947r
names of any persons of whom there was hearsay. Go oB, with
your statement without mentioning names.
By Mr. Goff:
2. State the conversation between O'Kelly and yourself, and
xe:-ve out the names he mentioned or indicated? A. As I before
stated, I was to receive that letter on this second visit, and this.an O'Kelly told me that tbhere was to be a new commissioner
eappointed, and his friend thought it would be advisable for me
to wait until this new commissioner was appointed; he also
stated that he had a policeman who had been on the force five
or six years, who was to be appointed a roundsman, and he was
going to wait also; and he says, "When you notice in the paper
tl'at a new commissioner has been appointed, you come up and
see me."
Q. Was that on the second visit? A. That was on the second
arisit; I also made a third visit, in which he gave me this book.
Q. This little book here? A. That little book.
Q. This "Manhattan Island?" A. Yes.
Q. Whaf 'did he tell you when he gave you this little book?
a. I expressed a good deal of doubt as to my ability to pass the
examination in reference to the locality of thi particular points
of interest, such as would be asked the policemen; he said he will
give me this little book to polish up on, and he said, " In case you
do fail, I have a friend in the examining board who furnishes me
the examination papers in advancef' that he had been able to get
through in the past and thought he could do so in the future;
that in case I fell below the 85 per cent., the requisite standard,,that he had a way by which he could mark me up 10 per cent, so
I could pass; I told him, says I, " Mr. OYKelly, if I pay this money
I want to be sure of the appointment;" I told him, " Supposing
there are 400 other men that put up money, and there are only
vacancies for 100, how am I to get the appointment; you say you
are dead sure of the appointment;" he said, ("There is no doubt.about it at all;" that I would not have to pay any mc-iey other
than the $50 as an assurance of good faith, until after I received
my appointment.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did he say how much you were to pay then? A. The balancee of the $400, which was $350; I also wrote him a letter, say,
ing that I would like to meet this'friend of his; he did not
answer it, and the next time I went to see him I asked him why,
and he said, "In matters of this kind we do not do much w;;LtiLg;o  we' verbally understood that this $~5 was to be put in a


\




948


bank in my name, as I understood, unti It-wa-s a dead de-i
tiMig, and until I was'comfortablZ fixed on the pelice force
By Mr. Gofft
Q.Do you mean the wholesuan?   A No; $50; that was to ble
put in the bank and the balance was to be paid after I receire4
may appointmet and was a full-fledged klieman
Cross-examined by.Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You were not an applicant for the police force? M No,
sir; only just to ascertain bow the thing was done; that is all.
Q You told him you were an applicant? A. I did.
Q That was a lie, wasn't it? A. I told him I was; you wen
put what convtruction- on it you please.
Q. Tt was untrue, to put It in a less offensive way? A. I have
already told you It was untrue; I have told you what I said; you
ecn draw your own construction.
Q. You told him you had been sent to him by a friend who
was in the dry goods business; is that true?
Chairman Lexow. —We understand every statement made by,
hEm or Mr. O'Keily was uwaibrre; we uinderstand he went there as
a detective for that purpoee  Terefore, there Is no use of'
occuping the time of the commit-tee lIn,' knowledge of facts
'have been gone over.
Q. Is It true that every satement y mima&de was untrue? X
Wo; not entirely; if I had gone and told him diet Mr. Goff sent
me here -
Q. You need not argue with me; answer the question, was It
fine that you had railroad stocks? A. Yes, sir; thatis9 true.
Q. That you have gob? A Yes. sir.
Q. Was it true that you had stocks in several railroad companies? & Yes, si.
Q. What'railroad companies have you stocks In? A. In the
Baltimore and Ohio.
Q. Do you keep a bank accomt? A. Burlington and Qulucty
Generail Electric, Chicago Junction, Un4on Stock Yard, 0. (Q and
St. L; I forget the others.
*Q Are you emploryed by the Parkhurst  iety? A. I am with
them temporarily.
Q. What is your salary? A. Twenty dollars a week.
Q. Now, you have got storks in this Burlington and Qjul-ne-y
how much? A. I think about-r-reafroad stov"ks I tbhink I have
$1,000; something like that.




- You have a mnsl holding? A. Yes, sir; a small holding;
tbought them lost summer when. times were dull anud stoeks were
hieap.
Q. Bought them last summer? A. Yes, sir.
Q You were employed by the Parkhursb Society 12emL? A. No,
sir.
Q~ That was before your employment by that organistion?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are holding them for a rise? A. Yes, sir.
Q D6 these Investumtets ot yours yield you a revenue as large
W the revenue omning to you-fron the Parkhurst Society? A.
Iam not inmwith the Parkhurst Society for revenue; I have a pretty
strong sympathy for Dr. Parkhiurst and only for that prpose;
4ihe money comlerside'aVoM was a secondary donsideratifa.
Q Your sympethy Is the real reason? A. Yes, sWr.
qWould you give up the o20? A. Iwill work for notahiag If
they get financially embarrassed; yes, sir.
Q. Hoaw long have you been getting the $20? A. Wel4l,'Iwill
say that when I first-I really could not tell-about two
months I should think.
Q How much did you get before that? A. Seventeen dollars
and fifty cent&
Q.Yoursalary has been raised? A.Yessir.
Q How much did you get when you first became a detective for
them? A. Fifteen dollars.
Q. Fifteen dollars? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was that? A. The first of November.
Q.Who did you make the dealwit? A.. I left it entirely I
think with the society; Mr. Moss, I think, perhaps.
Q. Did you tell Mr. Moss you would work for nothing? A. I
left it entirely with him.
Q. You left the a-mortnt of your saWary with him? A. I think
I did.
Q. Did he tell you what your salary would be? A. He insisted
upon my mentioning something; I told him $15.
Q. Fifteen dollars? A. A week; yes, sir.
Q. That was subsequently raised as you have stated?  A. Yes
sir.
Q. Where did you come from, and where had you been prior to
last November when your sympathy fotr the Park-hur-st fSociety
drove you to New York to ean a salary of *15? A. I au a hotel
proprietor in New Hampshire.
Q. You keep a hotel? A. I keep a hotel.
Q. Where is this place? A. Thmis is ait Weirs.
Q Weirs; where Is Wers%? A. Weirs is 100 miles from Bostoi%
on Lake Winnipesaukie.




950
Q fow lomgg lave you been keeping a hotel fteime? A About
five years.
Q. A large hotel? A. I can accommioedate about ffty people;
keep a general store in connection with it
Q. You keep a store there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. YQU have given up that business? A. No; I am with the
Parkhurst Society tx assist them all I cani
Q. You have come down from New Hamms are to do a little
niisionary work? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To come and have a few days' conversation with O'KeUy?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And yo left thfe store and otel to do a miwoona y w(Yrk?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are satisfied with the job, are you net; yo are! satisfled you are doing the right thing? A. I am satisfied there is a
large missionay field for that kind of operation.
Q. And you are satisfied with what you do? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When are you goling back to the store and hotel?
Ohairman Lexorw.- That is unimportant
Witniess.- Just as soon as they can dispense with my servoem;
I will stay with them as loo~g as I can be of any service to tt'm.
Chairman Lexow.- Any more witnesses?
Mr. Goff.- No, sir.
Chairman Lexow.- The further proceedings a     adjoumes1
until Friday morning  at hbaJ-past 10 oklccX 
Proceeidings of the eiighteenth meeting of thie c:irfto
tbe city of New York, Friday, June  1%894, at 10& 0 a.m.
Present- Committee all present, except Senator Brarrton
0ounsel on both sides present
Chairman Lexow. --- The committee will come to orde,
John E. Leonard, being duly sworn, testified as followm:'
Direct examiation by Mr. Goff:
Q What precinct are you attached to, offierw? 2.   Thme
present time?
Q. Yes. A. The Twenty-eighth precinct
Q.How long have you been on the polie" board? X T~n
years last January.
Q. You are yet a patrolman T A. Yes, sir.
Q How long have you been in the Twenty-eighth prechet? A.
Since the 16th of November.
Q. That Is Captain Weatervelt~sa tI& PAt Mthe present tlmel
y es sir.




Q. Wb  prednet were you in before that?  A. The Twent
fift precinct
Q. That was Captain Strauss? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The station-house was where? A. In Sixty-seventh street
near Third avesiue.
Q~ In what"Assembly district is that?  A. The Twenty-second,
Q.MTe lower part of the Tlwenty-second AsebydistrictI
A. Yes, sir.
Q.You were in Captain Strauss' precinct, up to the itith -1f
IXovember of last year? A. On the 16th. of November I reported
at the Twenty-eight precinct
Q. You were changed without any application on yopr paint?
i&. Yes, sir.
Q. You are aware, no doubt -you are a police officer wl&t a
good record? A. Yes, sir; pretty fair.
Q. You are aware, no doubt, that the law protects you for aw
testimony tbhat you may give before this committee; you undb*
stand that, do you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. My report of you is, that you are a decent, honorable man,
and I. ask you now, if you feel under th~e obligation of your eaik,
you came here under a subpoena? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are compelled to come here? A. Yes, sir.
Q.You do not come here of your own free will? A. No, sir.
Q. Will you tell the committee if you had any trouble in relar
flon to the performance of your 4uty on last election day VAL
Well,, I had no trouble.
(.You were assigned to a polling place, were yunot? AL.
Yes, sir; I was.
Q. What polling place was It?   A.It was between Sixty.,
seventh and Sixty-d~ghth streets, on tbe east side of Th1ird' avense&
Q And you went there at6 o'clock in-thenmorning?  A.- Yek
Q.And of course you went there to perform your duties as a
police officer, without regard to political parties?  A. Yes, sin,
I did.
Q. Or without regard to politicians? A. Yes, silr.
Q. During the time that you were on duty there, do yew
remember a 'Man by the name of Kelly? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The sort of a loafer, do you remember him? A. I do.
Q. Do you remember that yo~u cautioned him to keep away
from the rail of the polling place several, times? A. I cautioned 
him not to give out a paster in the polling place, as I thoughtA
saw a paster that he was giig out; I warned him to stay outsidej
and keep his distance. 


I.   -         I
I         I
-,.   I,.                      '.    I        _/,   j
I                       -.                 I - -      I




95"2"
Q. And, of course, you understood that it was your duty to keep
ol1 persons away, no matter who they were, from that rail? A.
Y ea, sir.
Q. And you warned this fellow, did you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He apgpeared to be a worker there, did he not? A. He did.
Q.. After you warned him several times, did he go in behind
the rails, follow a voter into the booth.? A. Nt that I know
of; I was placed on the outside, and at the tine I cautioned hintI hppened to turn around and see him inside of the door;
offering this voter a paster, as I thought it was, but I did not see
him go into the booth.
Q But you saw him offer a voter a paster? A. I did, amd I
put hini, outside the door, and told him to keep 150 feet away
from the door.
Q. After that, did Kelly complain to anyone aboat your actio*,
in ordering him away from the polls? A. Not that I know of
hut I believe that he went around to the station-hoase, or if he!&du't the president of the club did.
Q. The president of the club? A. Of the Lenox Hill Gluli.
TQ That is a Tatamany Hall Club in that district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Of which Mr. Ryan or Mr. Dunn - Mr. Dunn is the leader.
Q. And the president of the club? A. The president, I den't
know what his name is; he is a plumber.
Q. Did any officer go from the station-house to yon? A. Yes,
Q. Was there anything said abonut ymur being "too fresh" and
a, corulalnt marme against youa for the performance of your duty?
I. Not to me there wasn't
Q. What officer came to you from  the station-hbouse? XI
Oficer Cowley.
Q. What did Officer Cowley say or do? 'A. He told me to
report to the station-house, that I was relieved.
Q. Did you report to the staition-house? A. I did afterward
Q. To what officer did you report at the station-house? A.
Sergeant Casey was at the desk.
Q. When you were sent on duty that day to the polling place,
you were assigned for all day, were you not? A. As a general
thing, except when we go fr orur dinner, and we can go to vote.
Q. ~Yes; but you understood that you were on duty with that
exception for the whole day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. After you reported to the station-house, what disposition
was madeof you forthebalanceotf the day? A. I wasal~lowed
to get my dimner, and to go and voteand to come backl as soon
as I possibly could.
Q. And when you returned, what disposition was made of you?
IA. ~1 was sent up to Seventy-sixth street and Third avenue.




953


Q. Who sent you there? A. Sergeaut Casey,, by orders of dhe
capta.
Q. Wvas there anything pewticular at Se-Venty-sixth street and
~Iiird avenue? A. NotthatlIknow of.
Q.An ordinary patro beat? A. Yes, sir; to keep order at the
four corners.
Q. DM you, see anything or hear anything said about your
being sent up to watch an old fence? A. I was sent to watch.
the fence.
Q. ThIe fence was a-long the street? A. T~ie fence was
between Seventy-second and Seventy-fourtih streets, on the east
side of the Boualevard.
Q. And you got orders to go and watch that fence for -the balance of the day? A. I did; about half-past 3 in the afternoon.
Q. And you went of course, and obeyed the officer? A. I did;
my roumdsman ordered me.
Q. And- you watched that fence? A'. Yes, sir.
Q.Did you hear anything at all, abqut your action 'on election
day, until you, wxere removed from that Precinct? A.No, sir.
Q. The first thing you heard after that was, you were turans
ferred the following Tuesday.
Q.You made no a~lcation for the, tranmfer, did you? ~ I
did not
Q. kxe you a man of family? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you reside at that time? A. Three hundred and
twelve East Ninetieth street
Q. And you have been kept In that precinot eirer since, where
you are now? A. Yes, sir.
P Cnyou tell these gentlemen of the Senate committee If.You know of any cause or reason whatever for your transfer from
theprecinct In which you were stationed on last election day to
the precinct to which you have been removed, except your action
-tbat day In keeping this loafer away from the ]polls? A.. No, sir;
no reason whatever.
Q.That fs the only reason, so far as yon know? A. So far as
l know.
Gross-examination waived.
Rhoda Sandford was then called and sworn, and then witheijr-awn from the stand1, on account of faintness.
Charles Priem, being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Senator Bradley. Kiss the book.
ThPr witncess made a pretence of kissing the book7
~W' off.- I would suggest that you can open the leaves ofan
par A f the book and, kiss it.
&ueiator Lexow.- Certainly, he can open the book and kiss it.


1,:'




954
fie witness then opened the book and kissed it
)r. Goff.-You have come here under a subpoena?  s. I hamv
Q. And against your will? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what this Senate committee is for? A. Yes,
Q. Are you aware of the fact that any witness who testifies
fore this Senate investigating committee is protected by the
aw from all oppression or persecution; are you aware of that
facet? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Goff.-Will the chairman be good enough to instruct the!titness to that effect?
i Chairman Lexow.-You are protected absolutely, both under
ithe Code and otherwise, from any intimidation, punishment, coercion or oppression by reason of any testimony you may give here,
and we will see, so far as we can, that you are protected; so speak
openly and frankly.
Q Where do you reside T A. At present at No. 5 St. Mark's
place.
Q. Did you ever reside in Bayard street? A. Yes, sir.
Q. No. 28 Bayard street? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You kept a house there in which were lady boarders? W.
Yes, sir.
Q. For how many years did you keep the house? A. Going on
iix years.
Q. Tese girls were for the use of men who came in there?
X. They were fancy girls
Q. In other words, to be plain with each other, it was a house
of prostitution? A. I think so.
Chairman Lexow.- There is to be no levity in this room at all.
Mr. Goff. —I would suggest that it involves a great deal to
ixis witness, and I suggest that the audience be kept in order,
so that his answer should not be turned into ridicule.
Q. Were you ever raided during those six years? A Yes, sir.
Q. How many times? A. Once.
'   How many years ago is lthat? A. A year ago.
Q. So that you, were five years keeping that house before you,were raided? A. Just about that.
Q. In whose precict was that during those five years; who
was the captain? A. When I first came there it was captainmy memory is not very good for names —if you will help me
along, I will tell you.
Q. Was it Captain Mcjaughlin? A. He came afterwards.
Q Was Captain Cross there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The first captain when you went there was Cassidy, was ft
ot? A. Yes, he was the cun o to    e precinot at the time I
bought the house.




.955
Q.Then Ca~ptaia C oss followed Cassidy, and then McT~aughlin,
who Is now inspector, followed him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Wb~at captain followed McLaughlin? A. Captain Devery.
Q. Hie is down now in the First precinct? A. Yes; Sir.
Q.And after Captain Devery camne, you were raided? A. Yes,
Sir.
Q. The present captain is -he is the present captain.,
Q~ What captain was in -the precinct when you were raided?
A. It was Captain Cross that raided me.
Q. You paid money -from time to time, every year or every
month, M~eore you were raided, did you not?
Mr. Nicoll.- I object to the evidence being put in that wy
Chairman Lexow.- I will admit the direct question, "1did you,"
instead of assuming that he did.
Mr. -Goff.- I do not. think, however, it is proper for Mr. Nicoll
to make an objection just at this juncture. You do not appreciate,
perhaps, the embarrassing position of this witness, and the difficulties that surround our position in rew~hing testimony of this
kind.
Q. IYou are a fair-minded man; will you state to tb~is committee
if you have ever paid any money to any official there; tell it in
-'our own way? A. I do -not undersand it perfectly.
Q,. You have hearol about what Is callesd " protection," have you
not? A. Well, mme way, yes.
*  Q.. De you know anythngabout a ward man, going around
* there and getting money, from the houses In that neighborhood?
A. Oh, God, yes.
QDIid he collect money from you, the same ais from other
houses? A. I guess so.
Q.How frequently?
Chairman Lexorw.- This laughter and levirty nwit cease or
we will clear the room if there is any more laughter.
Mr. Goff.- At the next outburst, I shall move the committee
to clear the back seats.
Senator O'Connor.- And clear the faside ones~ toot unless they
behave themc-eelves.
Q.Did you. pay by the month? 'A. Yes, sir.
Q. Hlow mutch a month did you pay? A. When T first had the
house., it was less than later.
Q. How much was it when you -first got the house? A. I paid
$25 a month.
*   Q. That was under Captain Cassidy? A. Under Captan Massidy.
Q.Who was the ward nwo to whom you paid the 25 amonth?
Al. The ward -man, at that time?




956


i       3q. YYes? W. I think his name is George-let me seeI, '     R. George was his first name? A. Yes, sir.
Di Do you know where he is now? A Yes, sir.
fQ. At police headquarters is he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is his name Conmors? A. Yea
Q. He was a ward dectective at that time? A. I fiew   as
[the ward man.
Q. He used to come alromd to your bouse to eoileethi money,
did he? A. No, I generally met him at the corner.
Q That is, by arrangement, you would meet him?  AL Yes,
'Sir.
Q And it was an understood thing between you and the ward
nan that you should not be molested or disturbed in the houtse, as
long as you paid this money?   A. That is the way I understood it
Q. And so long as you paid it you were not molested? A. I
felt secure them
Q. I suppose that you always paid in bills? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did this wardman, Connors, ever tell you that he wanted
I he money in bills —you always paid him in bills? A. Yes, sir.
Q When was the price raised?  A. I am not sure; I am not
j  qite positive, but I think the price was raised under Captain
JOross; I am not sure, but I thinik that was the time.
Q. That is your best recollection? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Yon continued to pay under Captain McLaughlin also $25
V moth —Captain MceLanghlin succeeded Captain Cassidy?
Mr. Nicoll.-No; you have got them wrong.
Q. Well, the pay was raised under Captain Cross; that is the
best that you can recollect? A. Yes, sir; I am not quite positive.
' Q. How high was it raised? A. It was raesd from $25 to $50
Q To $50 a month? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was the wa.rdman to whom you paid the $50 a month
ainder Captain Cross; do ymo rember his name? A. I think
' In nanme was Rnith.
Q. And he came around, and collected the $50 a month, the
same as Connors did? A. Just the same way.
hairmann Lexow.- Get his first name, if you can.
Mr. Goff.-I have not got hiis irst name just, now. I think I
an supply it.
By Cha.irnaa Lexow:
Q Do you remember hi fiirs name?. I do not
By Mr. Goff
Q. Do you remebe when Captain Cros first went into.e
irec mt, did you not pa   a lumap, sa  of money? A. WIem
I       - frrst got there?




Q. Yes? XA No, sir.
Q Do you not rememlEr paying a large sun of m     5nny,.$50?. Oh, that came afterward.
Q. After he was in the preceint? A. Yes, sir; right afte
he had raided me.
Q. To whoui did you pay the $500? A. To the wardman 
Q. Was it to this same Smith? A. To that very Smita.
Q. To that very Smith, you paid the $500? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did you pay the $500; just tell the Senators how jo
pid the $500?. I paid it  billn a- 
By Ir. Bradley:
Q' All down at oce? lA Yes, sft
Q. Five hundred dollar in Aills aA orae-?. Ys, ~ir. '
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Where did you pay the money? A. I eaa nt reooAlect
where, whether it was mi my own hoose, or some other placdt I
could oXI MIl you.
Q What did you pay the $500 for; wlat was it that you understood you paid it for? A. I did not understand it myself at the
time, but I supposed it was what they called initiation fee 
Q.   hen the agreement or understanding was that $500
initiation fee and $50 monthly? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who told you that; was it the wardma.n who told you that
that was the initiation fee, $500? A. That was the price.
Q. And you were to be allowed to do business in your house, on
payment of that money? A; That was the understanding..
Q Did you have a bank account at that time? A. Yes; likely.
Q Was there anything said by the wardman about your payIig, him in bills? A. No.
Q. You understood that the payment would have to be made in
Mils, did you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You cottinuedi to pay about the first of every month, did
you not, the $50, after paying the first $500? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When Captain Cross left the precinct and Captain MrLaughlin came, did you continue to pay the $50 a month? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Had you a new initiation fee to pay then? A. To whont?
Q. To the new captain or the new ward man? A. Why, certainly.
Q. How much initiation fee had you to pay to the new ward
man? A. Well, I can't tell whether it was five or three




96;8
Tfly Sennaor Bradley:
Q F ive or three what? A. Five hundred dollarts or $30G.
Q' You can not remember which? A. No, eir.
Q. Was that in addition to what you had already paid? A.
Yes, sir.
IMr. Golff.-Yes; that was under the new ca~ptain; the uew
initiation fee.
By Mr. Golff
Q. Do you not remember; refresh. youir memory a Uttle, of stating at the time to friends of yours, that you had to pay &500 to
the new captain, instead of 300, do you not think it was $500?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And under the new captain, what was the wardmanzs name
under Captain McLaughlin? A. Kamcs I forget, but, if anyone
helps me to it, I will tell you whether it is so or not.
Ohairman Lexo~w.- Mr. Golf, have yen the name?
Mr. Goff.- No; not just now.
Q. During Captain McLaughlin's being commander of that
precinct, did you continue to pay your $50 a month? A Yes,
Sir,
Q. Every month to the ward man? A. Yes, sir.
Q Yoru met him outside on the corner, the same as aRl tbie
other ward men, and slipped it to him? A. Like any business
tramkaction.
Q. And that w10 about the first of every month? A. Jun.
abo'ut.
Q, Would yaa hand it to him inma rall of bills, or in an envel.
ope -just take the money out of your pocket and hand it to
him? A. Generally by hand shake.
Q. That is, you would have the $50 in yonr handl, and you
would put your hand out, to shake hamds with the ward mann,
and -  A. Yes; greet hin.
Q. And the money woild stick to his hand? A. That is the
way.
Q. When Captain Devery came into the precinct, did you have
to pay a new initiation fee? A. Five hundred dollars mnore.
Q Do you remembher the name of the ward man to whom yon
paid the next $500, when Captain Devery went into the preeinct?  A. Hie name, as far as I can remember, was Glennan.
Q. Wardman Glennon? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do~you know if he is with the captain now? A. Of course
he is in the same precinct where the captain is no-, v. 
Q. That is, with Captain Devery' A. Yes, sir.




9 5
Q. Ervery cuaptain that comes into the precinc  taes a no
ward man with him into the precinct, does he? A. Generally)
the way I understand it.
Q. Can you tell the committee after Captain Devery being
placed in command of the precinct, did Glennan call upon yot
A. He came to my house while I was not there, and my hbousekeeper, after I came back said the ward man was here, that he
wanted to see you, and he expects you to be at the station at 5
o'clock to-night, or in the evening; all right, I knew very well
what it meant, so I went there.
Q. To the station-house? A. Yes, sir; ihe Eldridge street
tation-house.
Q. When you went to the station-house, who did you see?  ~L
I inquired at the desk if the ward man was in, and he was called.
Q. Was it Glennon that you saw then? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was the first time you saw Glennon? A Yes, sir.
Q. Tell the Senators what you said to him, and what he said
to you. A. I gave him my name, and my number, my resildence,
and he says, "Oh, yes; I have been at your house; I want to see
you" says I, "I am here;" well, we went out on the stoop, and he
talked business to me.
Q. What did he say, as nearly as you can recollect? A. Well,
he said to me, that they had come there to do business; that 
they meant business right away; that they would not bother a
person first, and then go in business; he said they meant business
eight away; I understood it; I asked him what the price was,
and he said five; said I, "I ain't got it;" " Oh," Be says, "you can
raise it in half an hour, if you want tof" says I, "I haven't got it,'
tiat was, I think, on Friday, and he says, 1" I will see you on Monday," and on that Monday he came to my house suddenly; by that
tamne I had raised the money.
Q. You had raised the $500 by that time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you told him you had not got the $500, you really
had not the $500, had you? A. No.
Q. You had to raise it? A I had to b'orrow it
Q. You at that time knew that if you did not borrow that
money, and raise it, that your house would be raided? A. j
Thdink I would have had some trouble.
Q. So you borrowed the money and you had the money for him
on Monday evening, when he called? A. Yes, sir.
Q Tell the Senators what he said, when he called, and what,you said? A. Well, he called at my house in the afternoon; 3, eanUt tell exactly the hours; I brought him in my private room,
sand pulled down the curtain, and I handed him the money; he
ieounted it very carefully, and he found out that it was $5(U0, and
i~~~                       ~.L. 




960
lie -qs 1o me, aWell, where is the 50;" says I, IWfiat 50;" sf s
-he, "That to sll -right here, but the 5) for the noiuit you ko"w,we have been taking care of you ever since the 2d of this 3ntb,
and there Is $50 more-" says I, "I aint got it;" says he, &rWell,
air right, let that go until nex-t month, and then it is 100,2 to make
thfb 50 good, for that month that Is past;"  ys "1 All
ain't got it at present, and I will make it uj~ the next. montu
By Senator Bradley:
Q He trusted you for the mddb? A. Hie trlisted me for 5(
By Chairman Lexow:
g Did he say to whom the P$69 0 &gb?    A. I don't lifltw
about that.
Q. Ile did not say anything about that?. No, sir; so far as
I tnderstand, he took the $500 to let me do business; wherevee
that money went to, I have no Idea.
senator O(Youinors. —Is the ward man in the employ of the
pollee department'?
Aft. Goffr.- Oh, yes; and designated in eawli wrecinet for ~rivate
duty.
Tr Mr. GOff:
Q The uext month came arounil, did you then pay him- the $1,00,
$50 for the first month that be trusted you, and $50 for the present
month? A. Every penny of it.
Q. Did you pay him in the house, or did you meet him. out on
the street? A. I guess I paid it in my own house.
Q, Did you continue to pay Glennon $50 every month, while
Captain Devery was captain of that precinct? A. No; not to
the end of it; because I got information to close the door.
Q Who gave you information; who gave you word o close the
door? A. Some one from the station.
Q. Someone from the station-house? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Some of the poicemen? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know what was the reason that youx head to 6160a
the door? A. There was trouble going on, w far as I can judge.
Q With whom; do you remember what die trrotule was about?
A. The Parkhurst trouble.
Q. Dr. Parkhurst's trpoble? A. Yes, sir.
Q So you got word to cilose the house? A. I got word, saet to
me to close up.
Q.And you did closeup? A. I did.




061.


Q.And you did not pay any maney. after~ that, 'did you? -A.
After I. was closed for cu lengt~h of tlime~.I could not -afford It'.
certainly not.
Q. Did you, ever o~pen up agann? A. Not.
Q.You remained closed? -A. Remaiued close&
By Charnirmn, L1exOW?.
Q.Who told you to close, up? AX Word ww qe~1k me fromi
the statiogi.
Q. A policeman told you,? A. A polioeienai in Oiviliades lte
Q. But you recognized him as being a police'maa n ietd
with that station there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You knew him? A. -Yes, sr
Q. Do you know his name? A. I do no'fLe
By Senator Bradleyi
Q. Would yout khw" LIaf Y.od e&w h  again  -  tX —9A,
would.
By ff~rmn texow':
Q. Did he say to you that the reasoii thtat he Wanted you,
to close um was because, of the Parkhurst trouble? A. No;' Ise
did not give me no reason for anything; lie told' me to close the.
door; that is all.
Q. Nor to do any more 'business? A. No6
BY Senator Bradley:
Q.DidhetWIlyou who seuiihim tbere? X     O
By Mr. Goff:
Q. It was a policeman from -the sktaion'-ho'nse? A. Yesa, slrb
Q. How long ago is that since y ou got word to close up,~ on
account of Dr. Parkihurat's -trouble? A. I think th-at trouble'set
in at the end of October, already.
Q.. You own that horuse, do you? X. I do not.
Q. You rented it'? A.lIrented it.
Q. Have you given up the house? A. Yes, sir.
Q.Given it up entirely? A. I was diriven out of it~, di'spos
sessed.
Q. Since this Senate committee has been appointed, did you
hear anyone say' anything about resuming business when th,6
Senate conmmhittee would get through? A. Yes, sir; I have heard
something of that sort.
121




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Q Who did you ttear say tut? A. I can't give yo no names,
or anything *If t<l t sort, ibut I think there are a great many waitW
tig until the trotuble is all over, and the investigating committee
is done with iliat they will reopen or sollething like that.
Q. 1eopr    the hotme again? A. 'hat is the general belief, in
my estilmation.
Q. That is the general belief arorod among people who have
been ri-il;nintg tl:oe hb. ie-s? A. Yes, sir.
Q. T'Pbt is. to keep quiet;and keIp closed while the Semte
comnnitee is:lre, and after they go away, things will open up
again? A. V. sir.
Ih  (l. ijirnrm   lTexow:
Q. WVere y.u il-rnu.lly acquainted witf the sergent and the
ca)tailn at te i olie shihtini?  A. No. sir.
Q. I idn't. yiou know any of Itie police there? A. I know a great
marny Iralnjltl(,l in the Iplngrh ot time I was liviig there.
Ql. Tey knew you? A. Yes. air.
Q. They klnew the general elt:i';'.leter of vflr house?  A. I suppose so
Q Haive y.u any d(oubt of it? A. I d'nl't think so.
Q. Every one of rltein kn-w it, (lid thev not, as a matter of
bct" A. More or less: yes sir.
By Senator Rradley:
Q. Have any of tiheiu ever viteted ymor hoNse in liutfirM?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did they have a drink tjere? A Ni, sir.
By Mr. Goff:
Q  You did not keep a bar there, (id (,1ni?  A. No. Air.
Q. Will you state how inu(1ii Tionaey ytJl laid aJloz. t.llr? A.
While I was in blsiness?
Q. While you were there; yes?
Chairman Lexow. —The full;aIlnmitvt t',;:1 vu pmid to these
wardmen?
A. During the five and a half jeas- Il;al I was in business
(there?
Q. Yes? A. If you will give nle a I*ni;l:1(1l Ilpr I will figure
It; %bout $4,300.
Senator Bradley.-He says sontethiug ai.llt four Chuistiraee
omning in that time.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You made Chrisuas pree-i us. too? A. 'Thy were geertall
ollected.




Q. In addltion to the $50, they ao1ected a Qbrhi~w" reamt?
A. Yes, sir; outside of thatf
By Mr. Goff: 
Q. Who colleceted the Chrfsftnas presents? X. The same mm
who took the money.
Q The ward man? A. Yes, sir.
Q Did he say what those Christmas presents were for? X2.
F&r a gift to the captain.
Q. Were you assessed so much each Christmiaa? A. All I know
I ha# to come down amd p"yit.
By Chairman  Lexow:
Q. Did they state to thefigure fo you thfy fwereto pay?
Yes. sir.
Q. How much was it? A. The first two years I didn't pay-I
paid $100.
Q. EBtcah year? A. EaicFh year, and itben I broqght them b
terms and didn't pay 'but $7515.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. For the Christlmas afer the ftrsEt fwo yemar you paid $75?
A. Yes, sir.
Chairman Lexow.-If we understand you right, it was not a
present, it was a demand there then on ybu, to pay that amoun*
of money? A. Well, a demand, I don't know,
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did the ward officer come and ask you for It?   W Ife,di
he caine around and said, "Now, Priexn, Christmas is noming @l
get ready."
By Chairman Lexow:,
Q "Get ready?" A. Yes, sir.
Q. For the hristmas after the first tiwo years you paid $75?
Q. But at firvt you paid $100? A. Ye, sir.
By Senator O'Connor:
Q Is that in addition to the other money that you paid? X
Yes, sir.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. And the ward man in every case told you that that money
was for a preseint for thhe captain? A. That is what he saio
Q. Did he not also say that all other keepers of houste were to
pay? A. Whether he got it or not, I don't know, but I paid the




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964


money with the understanding that that was to be a gift for fie
captain.
Q. What I am asking you is, did he tell you that all fhe other
houses were to pay for the captain, too? A. I understood it that
way, that we are all dealt with equally,
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did you understand that that applied also to the monthly
payments, and to the initiation fees, that all were being charged
$500 initiation fee and $50 a month? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All in that precinct, were they all doing the same thing as
you were doing? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the ward man told you so? A. No, but other people
who were in the same business with me, they told me that they
were treated the same way as I was; no better and no worse.
Mr. NicolL- Does the committee allow that, what other people
told him?
By Chairman texow:
Q. In your conversation with the ward man, was there any,
reference made at all, to similar transactions being made with
other houses? A. Never.
Q. He did not say that he was charging you the same thing
that he was charging others? A. Never; in fact I might say
that we had very little conversation; it was only to do the act
Q. It was sort of understood between you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he say that Christmas presents were being given by
every' house? A. No; but I know that other houses had to do
the same, but he didn't mention it to me.
Q. Did you know any engaged in that kind of business, others
similarly engaged, were doing the same thing? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Both with reference to the presents and with reference to
the monthly payment, and the initiation fee? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Will you give the names of those other houses to the Senators that you knew that paid those amounts -can you give the
names of the other houses? A. That were under the same circumstances as me?
Q. Yes. A. I can give you a few right in my block there.
Q. Give a few? A. For instance -I don't know their namea
exactly.
Q. Give the numbers of the houses, if you can not remember
the names? A. The persons who kept No. 22 Bayard street,
under the name of French Charlie; there was Charles Davis.




965
Q. What is his number? A. Thirty-three Bayard; then Mra.
Sandford, the lady who was here a while ago.
Q. What number was her house? A. Twenty-four; then Mrs
Straushall, No. 30; she lives now in Newark; she established heself there; that is about all that I can tell you.
Q. Can you tell of any others in any other block there? A, Now
By Mr. Goff:   ____.
Q Do you know about Mrs. Jones?. No.
Q. At 26 Bayard street? A. I don't think there is such a
number.
Q. You are right, 32 Bayard street? A. Yes; the man goes by
the name of Baldy Jones; yes, I know him.
Q. Do you know Mrs. Jones? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that the lady over there (pointing to woman)? A. That
is the lady.
Q. Does your same remark apply in reference to the last house
you mentioned in reference to the initiation fee and the monthly
dues, and the same Christmas presents; did they have to pay, too?
A. I don't know anything about that; I only know that I had to
pay that; I can't tell what others had to pay; what they did pay;
but I suppose they were treated the same way that I was.
Q. Do you not remember that in one year, within 12 months,
that you paid in every way to the police $2,200? A. Yes, sir; I
figure it that way; that is not much out of the way; not to take
an exact year, but inside of'12 months.
Q. Inside of 12 months you paid $2,200? A. Yes, sir.
Senator O'Connor.- Ask him if he was required to pay anything
additional at election times?
Q. About election time were you.asked to make any contributions or subscriptions for election purposes? A. They came to
me and collected whatever they could.
Q. Who came to you for election purposes? A. From the
different clubs, and so forth.
Q. Did you ever hear of a club called the Cammanchee Club
in that district? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is a Tammany Hall club? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did men come from that club to you to ask you for subscriptions? A. Yes, sir; but they never were successful; they
never got a cent of me.
Q. Do you know "Cock-eyed Louis "? A. I do; well.
Q. Did he come to you on a deputation for subscriptions around
election time? A. No, sir; not him.
Q. Who did come? A. Well, I don't know; I don't think there
was anyone who came personally, but I got letters, sent one after




90*6


Another, that they wanted miei to. come and see -them'; and, I knew
very well for what purpose; but I didn't do it; I never went to
the club.
Q. Do you feel that you have risked your safety by coming here
and testif~ying to-day? A. Well, I must say I didn't like It very
muich.
Q. You have stated tQ some pmerson, that if you came he-re and
testified, you w ould be af raid of what might be done to you? A
I may have maid that, but thut don't mean that I am afraid Of
Q. No; I did not mean to say that you are, but you had a feel.
ing that yoii would have to- get out of New York, if you- testified
he re, did you not? A.. Well, yes; I have got feeling.
Mr. Goff.- I wish to may, Mr. Chairman and Senators. that
ha~ ing the honor' to act, as one of your counsel in this case, that
I desire to fay to this witness that if any acts of intimidation or~
arnBoyance a-re practiced u~pon him, to come and let 'me know
Inunediartely, and without any coost whatever to him we &hall
endeavor to defend and protect him under your auspices, and all
other witnesses who may come here.
Chairman Lexow. — I think that is the soentiment o& i-he committee -it is the unanimous senthi-fent, -Mr. G3off, on -that point.
Cross-examhiation by Mr. Nicoll:
Q H ave you conscientious scruples about tahing an oath? A.6
NO, Sir.
Q.Wh-3 then did you hesitate to kiss the bcok when you took
the smiand? A. If it was a new one, I would not hesitate for a
monment, but I suppose there are so many kimes on that it wasn't
neces~aiy..
QYou atre so particular whom you kiss. oir what yoa hiss?
A. Yes, sir; in that line.
Q. A nd on that aiccomt you hesitated to. kim the book? A.
Yes si r.
Q. 1)id onxorne tell you to do that? A. To do what?
Q. To hf-sitate to kiss the bobk? A. No, sir.
Q. 'Wass.that your own notion? A. That was my orwn notion.
Q. Are you a native of this country? A. No, sIr.
Q. Where were you torn? A. I wcs, born, in Berlin, Ge.''siany.
Q. Wh~en were you born? A. On the 18th, day of F'ehbriwry,
1845.
Q.What was your occupation In Germany? A. T was brought
u-p In a w~hodesme hqnii~nrbk as birokkeeper and oorre-spo~nrlent.
Q.T!oOrkeeper and correspondent for wh.,n? A. Tha-t IS I
leavrtied that; I was apprenticed in a mercantile busmcaL3




967


4That wIE the raethat you learned? A. Yes, sir.
Q With whom were you engaged inthat omecupatlo"-? 
meo- Ian what firm?
Q.That is right? A. The hirm ~ofF-rederiek.,Mai tins, in Ba.rtiL.
Q1ow, long were you-with t~hemn? A. Th'ee y-ewaI
QWhy did youi leave them? A. I served my aipprentic". tiue
and as I i~as not kept in the business I went away.
Q.i. you have any trouble with that firm? -A. No, sfr.
Q. Wh, ere did you- go next? A. I next took a place In an In~fl
rubber faztor; by the name of' Green; I was salesman there
Q. Where, In Berlin? A. In the same city, yes.
Q.How lonig ago was that; wblm-tyear? A. Alter I had served
tiny apprentice time.Q.You recollect when that waig, don't y~? A. In 1860 or
1861.
Q. FTOW long were you In the India rubber concern? &
MKbamt a yea'r.
Q.Why did you leave thet? A.Becamue the fAm tAild oat
It vvent to Anigrica,
() In 1881? A. I came over here in 1863.
Q.What took you into the bnsi-nes% of keepftit a olwos of pros.
Utution; did you keep one in P e_ ln? A. No; I guess not
Q.Well, did you; are you sure about that? A. I am positive
of tb nt.
Q. You did -not keep one there,? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you kept houses of prostitution in other places In this
countrv besides N~w York? A. Never before.
Q~What took you Into the business of prostitution here? A.
Iwill tell you si mply how I came about it; I was living or I kept
a room, In Third sQtreet. and the madame of this house kept the
Jiouse in Bayard street; that was Mris. Connellyv, now Mrs.
Oranger; at thadt time I, took aroom- there, fand T got acquainted,
Iwas a single mann at the time, and I got acquainted -with the
servant of the house there, and as Mrs Connelly was about soiling
her place, I made a propoSition to my present wife, now living, 4
that if She could arrange things, that I would marry-her and we
would take the place.
Q. Thiat 'is, you Proposed to your wife, that if she would mar-ry
you, you wouild open a house of prostitution? A. That was9 the
understanding.
Q. 'Mat was part of the marriage contract, was It? A. Whbat'
is that?
Q. That was the marriage understanding?  A. Yes. sir; at;
that time.




968
Q. What did you do In this country after you arrived here in
1863? A. I first became a barkeeper, and then -
Q. Were you not engaged with any house as a bookkeeper, the
trade to which you had been brought up to? A. No; that was
almost an impossibility at that time, for I did not speak any
English, so I was at the time worthless at that business of mine.
Q. Did you make application for any such position anywhere?
A. No; not to my knowledge.
Q. You became a barkeeper? A. Yes, sir; I picked up the
best I could do at the time. 
Q. Where? A. In the Bowery, near Broome street,
Q. Have you lived in New York ever since 1863? A. On and
off; I have been four times in California.
Q. How long did you live in New York after your first arrival
here in 1863? A. How long did I live here?
Q. How long did you live here after your arrival in 1863? A.
A few months afterwards I went to: the war.
Q. Were you in the war? A. Yes, sir.
Q. For how many years.? A. From the end of 1863 until the
expiration of the war.
Q. Then where did you return to? A. After that I guess I
was more or less a barkeeper; engaged in several places, on and
off.
Q. Tell us the places in New York where you were engaged
after your return? A. Before I professionally became a barkeeper I worked in a wholesale leaf tobacco business for thxee
years; the firm of ---let me see-William Eckhardt & Co, in
Pearl street.
Q. Was that from 1866 to 1869? A. No; it was later than that
Q. You have not told us with whom you worked after you
returned from the war? A. Well, I guess down on the Bowery
somewhere; I worked in Central park at the time after thb war.
Q. What was the first employment that you did after your
return from the war?
Mr. Goff.-I object; this is not a trial before a jury, in which
an attempt is made, and properly made,'to impeach the veracity
or credibility of this witness. Cross-examination of a searching
character may be entered into, will be somewhat in the nature
of intimidation to the witnesses coming on the stand; they will
not want to come, if they find they are to be subjected to a very,
very  searching  examination.  It is for this committee
to judge of this witness; he has come here and has told
this transaction and I think the cross-examination should be
limited to those transactions. He has confessed the business he
was in; nothing can add to that: whether he was a bookkeeper
In Berlin, or whether he came to America in this year or that,




I,,
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doe-s not affect the ques~ion of this investigation_ at -all-. I,. therefore, submit iliat it is anJ 'Important question' for ths committee
that counel coming here only by courtesy, should be permitted
to drag out and lengthEn a severe cross&xainton that can only,
have for its purpose really, thelinitimidation 2of other witniesses,
and can not elucidate any. further, truth u Inthis matter than
the witness has testifided to. I suggest that the counsel sho'iild
be restricted to the subject-matter that he has testified to on the
direct.
Chairman Lexow.- I think cone       as ntecee          h
prope.Ir bounds of exainina twio, an'd if- the witness wants to; evade
an answer and. appeals to thecodimittee, the committee will then
proba~bly. act upon an appeal of that- kind. It is proper, however,,
that we -should knlow the surroundings 'of the wiltnesisi orert
judge of his credibility, and his testimony is- certainly imlportant
enou gh to justify counsel 'Lo putrting searching quest-ions on the
question of his veracity., If the Witness -does` not desire to_ answer
a -question at any junctuire, all he has to do isi to say -that i6 the
committee(-.
Mr. Goff. — I do not object to that, but I do object to- the counsel
going over piecema by piecemeal, bit by- bit into thie witnes~s 
early. life and incidents; it is thres~hing- it over and is0 whorly
ulnne~)essary, and simp~ly prolongipg the ciross-exxinaftion. That
need not be prolonged..
Chairman Jexowvi.- In the' interests of justice and fair play,
the committee ought to kinow all- the'surroundings of -the wiftness, and until the point is readied, ni  etiktecos
exauiination is op~pressive, we are inclined to give the co'uusel a
fair latitude in view of the serious charges that the witness has
umde, but wheti we see it impe rils. the witness, we will conclude&
it. Go on; the witness understands that the question  r put
to hi  for he pupose of -enabling the co ttee to see what
his past history was, in order to judge wheth~er we can believe
what he is saying, and I will say to the witness, that if you do
not want to answer a question, ask 'us to relieve you of it, and
then we will come to a ponclusion, a's to whether we will or not.
Q. -,Wbat was yoaur- first employment after you retuined -fom
the war? A. I -think I, was bakeeper a~gain.
Q. WlfIt whom, do yoti recall?. A. No, it is too far back.
QYou do not recall that? A. No.
Q. W~hereabouts hi the city of New York? A.. When I camne
back from the war, I stated tbat I worked in Ceutr'ail Pok, in!
the Casino.
i:Q. Were you a bartender there? A. No, I was a waiter Ukeha


122




,ita vva. sour tirst eau~jiWo  I a..0  ame back from
the V~ - A. 'i es, sir.
Q.I o. Lmtg were yon a woileir  il1e ', ashio at Central Peark
A. t v..o 'ked there on and off for 1O or 12 yea'rs.
Q, Iinigsooe of that time youi were in California, were you
not? A. Ve% sir.
Q, I-a 1 3(uU eg lar employment in t]j.-e Cusii o in Oentral Par~k?
for a period of timue aifter you ea'iie back Nromu the war? A4.I
wast a wvaiter there engaged by the week.
Q. Was that your only occupation after you first returned trim
the war? A. Yes, sir.
'~How many weeks did you work there; do you remember?
A.Those details I "can't go into because I don't remember.
Q.Can you tell me without going into the details, by years?
L. I know that I worked four years continually 'in a place
at the arsenal, Central Park, a -little place that belornged to tb.o
same firm; I was a walter there for four continuous sessons.
Q. Do you remember who paid you there? A. The -firm that I
worked for was Ruckford & Ryan; Ryant was -the supe,-Ilnend nt
of the park, but he belonged 'to the firm that keptw 9ll thou.
establisune'nts in the pailh.
Q. Were you working there for three or four years? A. Y-ea,
Q. What was your next occupatIon, do you rememb-er? A- Yes,
sir; I kept a la-ger beef' saloon.In Second avenue, next to the
corner of Fifty-second street.
Q. Was the saoon hin your own name? A. Yes, sir.
Q.Did you have the license? A.. I did.
QHfow long did yon keep that saloon? A. About a year and
a half.
Q. Wihy did you gbin up keeping It? A. Becaume I failed in
basiness, I could not pay my de'bts.
Q.Did you make an assignment for your creditors?  A. NWS*
*;e It was a heavy moirtiga~ge on the place, a-nd the person who
kept t1he mortgage, I stated my case. to himn that I couild not run
the prace any further, and as I did not want to let him in, Tsaid. you can have the place, and he paid me $1 in lawful imoney,
and went out of the pla~ce.
Q. Whart years w-ere those? A. When I 1zeipt that 'place?.
Q. Yes,? A. Let me thinh( over it; it iiiust heave belen -I couild
not -say exactly-i878 or 1880.
(Taitinia~n Ljexow.- Do you expect by thls method of ero~sexamination-, to ascertain from thle witness auytvb1i-g mare dis%creditable thian that of keeping a house of MTll fue?
Mr~. NicolL-lI have no idiea, of what I will ascertain from the
witness.




Chairman Lexo'w.- Uniless you are prepared to prove thiat the
Witness has. been engag~ed in occupation. more discreditable thanl
tat, it is simply Using up~ the time of the committee 'to nut
advantage.
Mr. Nicoll.- I think the most ordinary emsmaexaininatioun
would be to find out the occupation- of the witnss durintf tile
berm of years in order tthat we, might knorw samethng about. th e
Witness.
Chairman  Ljexow.- -We start, oat with- the presump tioi
against the witness, by reasion of the occuf~ation. that lie has testiAed to; now, if we- can. not show anythiag worse than thatMr. Nicoll.-'I tcan noit'show anything, except by a erossexm-e~
Imation; I know nothing of, this witnes's; I never saw or heara of
him before.
Chairman Lexow.- We muggiest that you do it Irn a- mom
general. way, and not so specifically, otbherwi-e -it will tavke a
whole day in the examination -of one witnesa
Q.What year wast it that you kept the saloomi? A. igteen
hundred and seventy-eight, I guess..
Q. Then whePre did you go? A. You are askirnig me too iin
things; T have not got all that in, my- brain; I was on, and off; I
went to- California from here.
Q.What did you go to Califor'nia, for? -A. TV bet-ter myself.
-Q. Why did you leave New York; what was the occasion, of
your first leaving New York? A. On, -what ground did I leave it?.
Q.Yes. A. I didn't have no ground at all; I inftendied -',o better
myself; I P -ought I would do better there.
Q. Was that the reason. of your goeing to California- fourr tims
to better yourself? A. Yes, sir; most every time I thought I1
would do better.
Q. How long did you remain in Ohlifomnia on your first -visit.?
'A. Ten or 12 mon-ths.
Q. What were you engaged int there? A. The sanre thx thtat
I did here; barkeeper.
Q. Then you, came bawk to New York? A. Yee, sir.
Q. And went to barkeeping again? A. Yes, sir.
Q.Wh~er A:Wll,-whem~?worked in, University pae wit
-aperson by the name of;Iworkedlfor:-him for two
years and a half or three; I don't know exactly, and afterwards
I worked in a place for a man by the na-me of Christi-an. Bloom,
corner of William aend Pearl streets, -and I1 worked there four
years.
Q. Then you went back to California again? A. I bave not
been in California for the last eight years, sand theu. I only made
a short st-ay there.




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Q.Starting the lAs time you returned from California; elglit
years, have you been in New York ever since? A. Yes, air; ever,
since that.
Q. Have you ever been convicted of any offense? A. No, sip.
Q. None whatever? A. No, sir- if you call that an ')ffense,,
I was once arrest~ed oni the excise law; I. kept open a little
after 1 o'clock.'
Q. With that exception, were you ever arrestied for any other
offense? A. No, sir.
Q. You got back t6 New York about eight years ago, and
during all this time, you have been either a bartender or. a
waiter-had you at any time pr'acticed the trade to which
you' had been apprenticed in, Germany? 4.No sair.
Q. Have you ever, since you have been In America~, either in
New York or California,, practiced the trade at bookkeeper?
A. No, sir.
Q. And all these occupations which youi have stbte6 to the
committee, namely, tlyat the barkeeper or waiter, all working in
the cigar store, or keeping the saloon on your own account, were
the only occupations, except keeping a house of prostitution, in
which you have been engaged, are -they? A. What is that?
Q. The only occupations that you have had, since you came,
to America, are those of bartender waiter, keeping the saloon,
and keeping a house of prostitution? A. That is about all; that
was the best way that I could make my living.
Chairman Lexow..-.He said he was a soldier in the war in
addition to those occupatilons.
Q. You. were 'a soldier in the war', belsides? A. Yes, elr.
Q. What was. your occupation- just previous to keeping the
house of, prostitution? A. I was barkeeper, working for a firm
by the -name of Christian Bloom, cornr of Twenty-fourth street
and Fourth avenue.
Q. How long had you worked for bhhT W. About three and
one-half -years;. not at the same place; I was barkeeper for him
at the corner of P earl and William street, but the same main
Q. Did you -rent the house in St. Marks pla-ce in your own
name? A. Wh-ere I reside uow?9
Chairman L1,exow-.- You,m-ean Bayard street,' do you not?
Q. Did you rent the house, at 28 Bayard street; did you take
It-in your own name? A. No; not when I first took the honsee
the lease and everything -was made out in m-y wife's namne.
Q. When did you first take the house;: what year? A. On
the 17th of March, 1887 or 1888, it will be six years.
Q. Had you a bank account at, That lime? A. No.
Q. Who -paid for the furniture in the house? -A. We bouight




the place through influence; my wife raised $1,000; she
that $1,000, and the balance, amounting to four more thousaa4
dollars was made out in notes payable each month, a note of $30(
Q. From whom did she raise the $1,000? A. FroMn a well
acquaintance of hers.
Q. From a friend of hers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was he? A. Who was he?
Q. Yes? A. He was a man who keeps a Mud of a hok1el4, 0Y
near a cemetery-let me see.
Q~ Woodlawn? A. No; the Lutheran cemetery, Clows by, thaf,
he keeps a kind of a hotel.
Q What was his name?
Objected to; objection sustaine.'
CMairman Lexow.-I do not see that any par1 of tril ex-M flB'
tioL is materiaL
Q. You gave a thousand dollars dorwn, and paid the balnee In
notes? A. Yes, sir; that is what I said.
Q. Did you make thenorteeoryour wife? A. My wife bad-to
sign them.
Q. Did you endorse the notes? A. No, sir.
I Q. Had you any property at that time at all? ~ Nosfr.
Q. Had your wife any property, with the exce ptio  of the
thesand dollars? A. No, sir; not to MY, knowledgef with the
exception of personal effects, clothing and so on.
Q I mean money or propeTty? A. No ir.
I Q I uvden~stood you to say that you first opened this house on,
the 17th day of March, 1888? A. The 17th of July; that was the
time that we took possession of the hhouse.
f. Is that the date, when you commenced to keep a, house of
prfiistitution thecm? A. If you cal c it so, yes
Q It was a hosme where you kept girls, was it not? A. Yes-:
I acknowledge all that.
Q You say that was the time when, Cafpbafn Cassidy was a
police captain? A. He was the captain of the precinct at that
time.
Q Did you know him? A. I1 knew huni person-ally.
Q id you ever have- mny transaction witlB him in -your life?
K Nox Sir.
Q. Did you ever pay Captain Cassidy a oent of money in your
life? A, No, sic.
Q. I understood you to say that sortly after you commenced
to keep the house, policeman George Conners called. on you-L;  i
thi~at true? A. NeL
i  Didyou gotoeweMnm?     A.Yezs slIahatk.




97.4!. Q..Did you go to see him? A. Yes sir; I saw him..Q. Where did you see him tile first time you saw him? A; It
was half a block distance from the Essex Mairet police court;
I didn't know him personally, and I took some persons to intoduce me to him.
Q. Where was the next time you saw him?    A. The next
fmne- thien I saw him regularly every month.
Q That is what you have testified to? A. Yes, sir.
Q Who was the person whom you took to introduce you to
him? A. Let me see-I know the name that I don't think of
ft now.
By CaSrman Lexow:
Q Was he a friend of you.rs? A. I was acquainted with lhni
he was a barkeeper at the time, and worked for a person by the
name of Regan in the Bowery.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Tell us his name or say that you can not recollect. A. As
soon as I get at it, I will let you know.
Chairman Lexow.- If you don't remember, say so. A. In names
and numbers, I am bad in memory.
f}      Q. Had you any conversation at this first interview with Connors, in which your friend was present, about keeping a house?
A. He was not present; he only introduced me, and then he left
Q. Do you recall his first name yet? A. I will drop on it before
I leave the court-room.
Q. No one was present at this first interview that you had with
Wardman Connors? A. No, sir.
Q. No one was present during the time when you say yo. met
him on the corner of the street, was there? A. No, sir
Q. Had you any bank account from which you drew these
various sums of money? A. No, not at that time.
Q. When did you first open a bank account? A. Tiat was
after I was over two years in the business, and had paid all my
notes and everything; I had a few hundred dollars over, and I put
it in the savings bank. 
Q. You had no bank account then during the time when you
say you gave money to Wardman Connors? A. No, sir; I didn't
have no account at all then.
Q. How long did Captain Cassidy remain in that precinct? A.
I can't exactly say how long; I think it was a year or over, or a
year and a half; I can't tell; I know that he retired, and died a
few days afterward; that is all I know about it.




Q.T understood you to say that you were raided under Gaptaia
Cross.. A. I was.
Q'Were you arrested? A.. No', sit.
Q.We're you indicted? A. I didn't leave at the houq; when
I found out there was a warrant against me, I discharged every'.
body and only kept a housekeeper there, and she took care of the
house, but I didn't do no business at all, but the warrant was outq
and it was issued at a certainQ. Not against you, but against the keeper of the house genev
ally? A. Against my housekeeper.
Q. I understood you to say that when Captain Cross toot
charge of that district, you paid the sum of $50 a month-, Is that
true? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To whom did you -pay that money? A. To his wardman
Q. What is his name? A. I guess his name was Smith.
Q. Did you ever pay a cent of money to Captain Cross?A.
You mean personally?
Q. Yes. A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever have any transaction with him? A. No, sin
Q. I understand you to say that you paid $50 a month to ISmith?
A&. I guess that is his name; I don't know exacty, but I think it
was.
Q. Where, did you 'take that money from, from  any bank
account? A. I bad always a certain sum of money handy to pay
those - my bills, and whatever was connected with the business.
Q. I did not ask you that; I asked you whether you took It
from any account -did you have a bank account that you toolk
It from? A. No.
(Tbairman Lexow.-. He had an account In, the savings ban4q
not a regular bank of deposit.
Mfr. Nicoll.;- That was later on.
Q. Wio, introduced you to Offce Smith? A.. 'Mat I can n~l
tellI you.
Q. Was anyone present during any of the conversations thai
you bad with Offlicer Srmih? A. 'No, sir.
Q. W'as anyone p.; esent during any of the transactions that you
sa~y you had with Officer Smith? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you keep any account of, this money that ~you paid
Oflicer N~mith? A. It was $500 initialion fee and $50 ev-ery month.
Q. I understood you to' say that, but I waint to know -whether~
you kept any account of it; you were brought up as, a bookkeeper; did you keep any account of this money?, A. 'Ithat is,
very easy to figure, is it not?
Bly Ohai'mran Lexow:
Q. Did you or did you not, keep a written sft-temnent of MIt
~L No.




97G


nr   By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Did you keep a memomndum book, or a piece of paper
with it on? A. Na, sir; not of those things.
Q. Or any account whateyver, on which you put down the
amount, which you paid anyybody, as you say? A. No, sir.
Q, And there is not in existence to-day a memorandum or
piece of paper, or an account or book or a witness, to corroborate what you say, is there? A. What I have paid?
Q. Yes? A. Except groceries and butcher booksSenator O'Connor.- Do you think a man wo'uld keep memoImnda of such things as that I do not think it is worth while
to take up the time; we all know a man would not keep a
memoranda of, that kind, unless he wias very foolish..
Mr. Nicoll.- I don't know what is the habit in such oases
Senator O'Connor.- Do you think they would do that, keep
such a record, from your experience in the-se class, of oases?
Mr. Nicoll.- I do not know; I think this is a very exceptional
person.
Q. You say you paid $500 to Smith? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In additiion to the sum of $50 a month? A. Tat Is itQ. Where did you draw that money from, from a savings
bank? A. There was money coming in every day.
Q. I undeiisteiud that; I di  not ask you tl~art; I asked you
whether you drew it from the savings bank? A. The $500,
at the time I gave it, I drew that from the savings bank,
but I did not have that much spare money,: I haA to go to the
bank to get the $500.
Q. That, you drew from tlhe savings bank? A. Yes, air.
Q. And paid it to Offiew, f1tbh, where? A. I t chink eose b3y
the stattion-house, somewhere.
Q. Do you recolleet where you paid the $500? A. I guess
it was the corner of Ike station-house, ownier of Eldridge and
Grand streets.
Q. When you say you- gvetws that it wa Wso, is that omly yonr
form of expressing it, or does It Indioate that you do not
recolleat where you paid it? A. That I have paid It, I know
tha~tQ bii't I Cw't reooaleat just emtacly at what corner.
Q. Did you keep any account of that payment of $500? A.
No, sir.
-Q. Or any memorandum? 'A. No, sir.
Q. You then started that you paid when Captain oIlaughlin
a~me iitlo the distriot either $500 or $300? A. 'McLaughlin
was $300, I think.
Q. Did I not        dyouto say that, onthearrival ot
Captain MeLaughlin into the district, after Captain Oross, that




9-77
'you paid an additional mum of money? A. Yes, sir; when
CapLain McLaughlin took charge of the precinct, I was, informied
tha~t it -woulddcs me $300, ad I paid it.
Q. Did you ever. pay any money to Captain McLanghlin? 
Not personally.
Q' Did you have any transaction with him? A. No, sfr.
Q. Or co~nversation with him? A. No, sir.
Q. Who was the man to w~hom you say you paid it? A. I
for~got his na 'me' now, but he was his. wardman; J' ges hei
over in the Tenderloin district now; if I hear his name I can
tell you'; I doin't remember his -name
Q.Can you tell mie-the name of the wai~dmian to, whom 'you
paid 1the $300 at that time? A.' If I heard the name I could-'if
I was prepared I would have got all these names down befor-e
I 6iame but I was subpoenaed so qjuick I didn't have' no -time to
thinkbover ' iy-thing.,
Q.That is not long ago' since you paid the sum of $300- or
$500; you a-re not in the habit of dealing many times in sums of
that amount, are you - that was a large sum of money for -;,u
was it not? A. I guqssitwas,
QC an you. recollect w'hethier or not the amount you paid
the wardman was $300 or $500? A.. Caiptaiu Mc-Laughlin's wardMani?
Q. Yes? A. I am positive it was $300.
Q. Now, can you n~ot recall who it was? A.I forget the name.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Is it anythin-g like Mooney? AU I know the person If I
saw!i-an, a fellow with a heavy reddish mouistache;- I guem he
is wardmnan ever in the Thnde'rloin district; it may be Mooney.
because I know that man; Mooney was a wardman in the
Eleventhi precinct, tIat I know, but whether~ i was him or not
I don't know.
Q.Where did you pay- him the 1300?9  A. In the John J.,.
O'Bcrien Ass~ociatwio in the office, upstairs, or where -they have
their club-room, In Grand street.
Q. When did you piny it? A. A' out two weeks after Ca~ptain
McLaughlin had possession of 'It.I
Q. Do you remember what day of the week you paid it to him,
or what weeks of the year you paid it to: him? A. No, sir.
Q. Or what monath? A. No, sir; I said it must have been abouti
two weeks after Captain Mc Lauighlin had charge of the precinct,
so whaterer time Ca-ptain. MoLaoglilin was sent there as cap
tain, I don't know.',


14         la3




978


Q.And Vh~e $asee that you paid him, you say, was in the John
J. O'Ik,en Awo imiciu? A. In their iiieuting-voownu
Q. Were'yo'u alone there? A. Ysg, sir; with tbat~man.
QHad yo    e there by appointmenet? A. By, aippointanentj
yes, SirP.
Q What time of day was it? A. In the afternoon.
Q Do~ you remember between what hours; was it between
3 and 6 o'clock? A. About 2 or 3 o'clock.
Q You two men were there alone, in the John J. O'Briea
Association rooni, anid there you. paid him the $300? A. There
was a coil!le more persons there.
QPresent at that time? A.. Not present with us.
QWho were they? A. They were there for the same object.
Q. Who were they; tell us their names? A. One was John
Ifeyser and the other was 13illy Mankin.
Q~ Was there -anybody conniected with the John J. O'Brien
Association present? A. No; but that was the place that we
By M!aIrman TRYON"
Q.Ym u d been requested to meet this watdmnxa theme  Al
TM. Sir.
Bj Ml-. V~ICOV:
Q. Have yo Al e n Us the -names of all the persns who were
present there at that time? A.. I gave you the namerr of the
two persons that was with me there.
Q~Where, does Hfeyser live? A. No. 13 St. Marks pisas.
Q. What is Ids business? A. He keeps- a hotel.
Q. Who else was there? A. I gave- tl.1 naine.
Q. Give it again? A. Billy Mank-in
Q. What is his address? A. I can't g6ve you his &Ad-ieqQ but
I know be kvtep-. i lager beer s-aloon ii Broad street'
C~hairnan be: owv.- Inawmuch a,% tli,4 examination wili last
sornetinie Io  e.if you, have any other witn; sses, whoe,( (i ect
testimony you.  ',r lo takce lefore v  ui111nmaent, why do YOU
not put them oit fl-e stand now, Mr. CWoT?
M r. CII M.-  I  Ia'1like to. I w ill a~z. owx~ing to the peeiiliarity of the witnv-ssefs that we go on wi~t taking rece.ss h;-day,
have a continumiaseon     I have hnwaiting, hoping that
Mr. Nicoll "woahi reach the point to Sto.
Chairman IL'~ow.- Very well, if thiere is any reason why
it would be advisable to ke-ep in continuous session, we are
to do it.
enator O'Connori- We can keep a quo~rum here Comtinuously.
until 4 o'clock.




797
Mr. Nicoll.- W"ell) Y would like to get my lnh
Senator Bradley.- We don't want any more Grangers
Mr. Nicoll.- Is. the committee going to sit right through?
Chairm an Lexow.- That is the expectation at the present
time.
Senator O'Connor.- Have you no associate wi-th youl, Mr.
Nicoll?
Mr. Nhxdl1.-] do not think it is quite proper to go on conltinuously, unless there is some exigency about it. if Mr. (Goff
states professionally that there is. an exigency about it, of.ourse
I will go, on -and forego my midday meal.
Chairman Lexow. — There is a~n exi grency, I think.
Mir. B off.- I would like to havre thbe committee gret through
with some few Witnesses that I. have on h-ind now, In court.
withoult 'any drelay.
Cliaiirman ljexocw.-I think, perhaps we had better finish the
cross-examination of this witness~,you will not be Iituch 1longer..
Mr. Nicoll. C"onitinue the examination, Mr. Nicoll.
Q.Now, have you rec;alled the name of the man -who introduced you to Smith? A. I have not got to the name yet'
Q. Have you g-ot to the name of the wardm~an to whow you
say you paid the mioney in Captain McLaughlin's time? A. No;
I do not l..now whieicr it was Moon-ey -no; twas not. Mooneyr
I for-yet his iiam e.
Q. To who-M did you first tell this story as you have told it
to-day? A. I sullpose what I have testified to -here I have on
several occasions passed remarks to friends of mine, and so forth.
Q. iPid you not see Mr. Gaff examining you from a paper?. A.
Yes, sir; I suppose I have spoken to a person and through that
I got subpoenaed to testify in regard to it.
Q. Have you. had an interview with Mr. Goff on -the subject?
A~ I did not know the gentleman until I came in the court-room.
Q.Have you had. ft wMt Mr. Moss? A. I don't know, tbxe
gentleman.
Q.Who was the person to whom you gave the infornmation,
from which Mr. Gaff examined you in his statemnent? A. I
don't know who the per-son may be, but I know I have expresse
myself in Regard tie the "bleeding" to several persons; whoever the one is who gave the statement, I don't know.
Q. Did you not send a statement -  -A. -Nb~ sir; I did not
intend to come here either.
Q.I understand yout have been expressing yourself in public
to various people? A. You know how things will happen confidential; you may pass a remark to a friend.
(0. To whom have you expressed it in private or public.? A.
I don't ki-ow; ~o matny I could not tell you.
Q. Tell us the name of one or two men to whom you hb.ye




980
told this narrative before t-day? A  I spoke confidential to
a very good friend of mine by the name of Alfred Rudolph;
he is a carpenter down town; I guess I have expressed myself
to others.
Q. Is he the only man that you can recollect? A. Yes, air;
so far.
Q. He is the only man who ever heard you tell that, what
you have stated im court to-day-did you ever tell the gentlemen of this committee? A. I did not say that he was the
only man.
Q. The only one that you can recollect? A. That I positively
expressed myself to freely and openly.
Q. Where did you keep a bank account? A. In the Dry-Dock
bank, corner of Third street and the Bowery.
Q You finally were driven out of the business altogether,
were you? A. Yes, sir; dispossessed; put on the street
Q. By the owner of the property? A. Yes, sir; by the landlord for nonpayment of rent; I didn't have it.
Mr. Nieoll.-When I accepted a general retainer as oensmel
for the police department, I accepted it with their understanding that I did not appear for Captain Devery, because there
had been certain indictments found by me, charging him with
neglect of duty, when I was in the office, and in order to avoid
any possible connection with any suggestion of defense of
these matters, I left that matter to Colonel James, who was
his counsel on that indictment, so I will take the liberty of
communicating to Colonel James this about Captain Devery,
and simply ask a single question.
Q. Did you ever have any business traiaotio  with Captain
Devery? A. No..-...- 
By Mr. Goff:
Q. You stated that you bought the plae from Mrs. Oonnelly?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was Mrs. Conelly maried at the time? A. She was a
single woman at the time, a widow.
Q. Where did ahe live? A. She kept that house
Q. You said afterward that she married Granger? A. She
married ex-Sergeant Granger.
Q. Of the Eleventh precinct? A. Yes, sir; he was sergeant
ti that precinct for years. 
Q. Was he sergeant at the time he mrried her or had he
left the force? A. He had left the force previous, and had
retired.                                     ^
Q. Did he leave te force just as he married her, at the same




I     f


981
tihne? X I don't know the time, how long he has retired frog
the force; he retired on account of having served over 20 yean,
and was entitled to full pension.
Q. Speaking  about meeting  the  wardman   outside the
police stati-onhouse in Eldridge street, do you remember a
furnithre store there, Brown's furniture store on the corner?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it opposite that furniture store that you were in the
habit of meeting the wardman? A. Generally on the other sie
of Grand street, the down-town side.
Q. Yes, but opposite the furniture store, on the other siA?
A. Yes, sir.    f
Q. That was the usual place? A. Generally.
Q. Did you ever see any other persons, keepers of houses t{l
you knew, waiting there to see the wardman about the same time
that you were waiting there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was the recognized place where they were to go ami
meet the wardman in the evening? A. I think that was aboitt
the appointed place for the meeting generally.
Q. You mention that when you found out there was a warrant
against you, you dischargbd all the girls from the house? A.
Yes, sir; I closed the house entirely.
Q. You were not arrested on that warrant, were you? A. No,
sir.
Q. How did you know there was a warrant.out for you? A. I
was not told by any person; but as I came home one night my
housekeeper says to me that there was two policemen in civilians
dress in the place, and that finally they asked her name, and they
put it down in a book, somehow or another, and when I heard
this I said, "That is evidence against me, or against us," against
my house, and I might as well close up now.
Q. You lost all your money and property there, did you net?
A. When I left the house I was destitute.
Q. You had to pawn your articles of jewelry? A. I had to
dispose of everything.
Q. Even to a fancy dog? A. Yes, sir; I sold him for $100.
Q. A dog that had taken prizes at the Madison Garden dog
show? A. Yes, sir; the finest in. America, but I had to dispose of
him.
By Mr. NicoI?
Q. Do you repeat now, after Mr. Gof:s examination of you J
now, about the fancy dog, and the prizes at Madison Square Oa
den dog show, that you never communicated those facts to M.
Goff before, do you swear to that? A. I swear to that; I nevee
knew the gentleman before I saw him to-day.






982


Q.Adnever sent the facts to him bZ any mesegror MAW
sage? A.. No, sir. -
y Senator O'Connor:
Q.Are those detectives to whom you paid this money on the
force 'now, connected with the #olice department now? A. I
don't ]know; I s-uppose -some of them are; Connor is, I believe.
Mr. Goff.-Hle 'i's at police headquarters.
Mfr. Ni oil.- Wo do not need the testimony of this witnea
to establish that fact.
Mr. Goff.- He has testified to three, Connors at headquartems
Glu~nnon, with Captain Devery, f(Ed a man wbhose name he forgets,
in the Tenderloin, with Captain Schn;Iittberger.
Senator O'Connor. — Was his house, closed, was he actually
aurrested?
Mr. Goff.- No, not arrested, he closed ift himsl
By Senartor O'Connor:
Q. Have you remained closed ever since? 'A. Yes, VIA
By Chairman Loexow:
Q. You said you had to go and. see Connors on that ftrst occasion; what do you mean by saying that you! had to go and see
Connors; had any word been sent to you to go and see him? A.
I can give you that transaction; that wias atout two weeks when,
I had the hou-se, and I came home in the afternoon, after being
out for an hour or two, and my wife says to me there has a wardma~n haid been here, and he told me to close the ho-Use, so I says, is
that so; the hortse was closed u~p the tim-e I arrived home, you
understand; so I1 knew very well what it meant if I didn't make
It good, so I went around in the Bowery to a friend of mine- V-y.the name of Rbegarn, and I asked him what to do, and he said,
"You had better see him; " so in that very placie I found that
person - I will get at his name - says I, "1I don't know the
wardman from any other persom, do you know -him personaly;"
and he ea-id, "Yes;"1 and I said, "1Come along with me, aiid
introduce me;" so he went to thie stationmhors —, and he waa not
there, and we were told that he was at the court-moom, and we
went into the court-room, and he was inside, and he told hith that
a person ou~tside would like to see -him.
Q. So when you said you had to go and see Connors, you mean
to say by that, that your house was already closed, and unless
you did that it would remain clo-sed? A. I suppose he camie and
gave orders to close, because we had not seen him..
Q., And the moment that he got the fee you opened the house?
A. Yes, sir; after I saw him he seays "1Go homne and o~pen up.




(lW~ah~na Lexow.- That is all. In tczs an-ybody shoi-1i inter(ere with you or~ wotI. si, ou afl er lbhis exalchiai ionf, that, you here
unudf~rgone, tke mo'i-mitee would be indebted, if yo-i woiuld
Wnorm them of the fact, or inform Mir, Golft of the fact.
Rhoda Samford, called as a. witness on behalf of the State.
Chaiman Loexow. — You were sworn, weren't you.
C~hairman Le<-xow. Will you kis the Bible?
7he Witiwss- Su~ppose I don't believe in the Bible.
Senator Bradley.;-You don't b lieve in the Bible? A. Na
Senatior Braidley.-1114taind up then.The Witness.;- don't believe ~in the Bible.
Chairman Lxw-One moment; I will affirm you then.
Mfle witness was theni afflimed. and testified as follows.
DI-Tect examination by Mrt. G3off:
QYour full name Mrs S~anford? A. Rhoda Sanford.
Q.You are a married woman? A. I am a widow.
Q.Haven't you got -any cdidren? A. Yes, sir
Q.L~ng? A. Yes; five-fohr.
Q.InKNew, Yo6rk? 1A.:No, sir; t~hey live in Brooklyn.
~0. Where do you reside? A. -At the present time 49 Bayar'
Wtreet
Q.In this city? A. Tn this eity.f
Q.Now, Mrs. Sanford yukinow what tbese gentlemen, these
Senators are here fo~r, do ycu. not? A. Yes.Q. You know they area here charged by law to investigrate into
certain matters about the poliee department of this city; YOU
'know thlat?- A. Yes.Q. And are you aware that the law protects any witness. who
mar~ testify here: you iin'lostand that, do you? A. Yes. sir.
('hairman Leo.No~ii liht von s4ay v here cart be read in
evidence a!Zai-nft vou in any proceeding or perwrcuirno or p-.oseention that mjay be harl. Your testim -nv is ab-;tfutely exclunded
bky haw. ard-ecrn not he used against you, so that you can speakwith perfect tr'ankn< ss and freedom.
Q.Now, after l  ~~iin he- honorable senator, the, chairman,
state to you1 that you are protected, you are prepared to reeognize
the obligrations of your oath to tell the truth, are you.? A. Yes,
sair.
Q. flow lonT ~have you resided at 49 'Bayard street? A. 'About
four -or five weeks.,
Q. Four -or five years? A. Weeks.






1
t;~
i
i


^


984
Q. Before that, Mrs. Sanford, where did you reside?. 'I lived
in 24 Bayard street.
Q. How long did you reside in 21 Bayard street? A. Two
years as a madame and one year as housekeeper.
Q. You were housekeeper; who were you housekeeper for
ijefore? A. Mrs Smitl
Q. And then after Mrs. Smith gave up the house you took tbl
house? A. I took the house.
Q. And you became the madame? A. Yesa 
Q. Were you ever keeping a house of that character before?!L No, sir.       '
Q. That was the first time? A. No; I was housekeeper in suhi
houses, but it is the first time I owned such a house; I was a
housekeeper for many years.
I. This house that you kept there was what we commonly cal
a house of prostitution? A Yes, disorderly house; the oldtashion name of house of prostitution.
Q. Did you have more than one house? A. I bought another
house the first of December, the next door; I most had it given
to me because the way things were there was nothing made in
the house, and I had a house most given to me, for all I paid on it.
Q. Now, from the time that you were keeping the house in
Bayard street, No. 24, from the time you kept the house in Bayard
street, No. 24, that you were proprietress of that house, did you 
have any dealing with the police? A. Well, in what way?
Q. Well, in the way of paying money? A. Well, I had the
house a long time before I paid any money.
Q. Well, to whom did you pay any money the first time, Mrs,
Sanford? A. I could not say who it was that took the money L,
gave a couple of hundred dollars; I couldn't say who it was.
Q. Didn't you know who it was you had given money to?  X
I was a short time in the house when 1 was pulled.  - - -
Q. You were pulled? A. Yea.    -.-..By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What house was this?. Twrenty-four; plled liy  Ei
lOross; I don't know the gentleman at all.         -
By Mr. Goff:. QYou heard it was Captain Oross? X Yea.
Q. ITe was the captain of the precinct? A. Yes, I
Q. Now, after you were pulled did you open up again? X B
sir; I sent the girls away and run it for a time as a furihsbd
'oom house. 




__      I I         I, I
4
I

985'
Q. Did you ever have the girls back again? XA. In four or five
months I brought them back again on the quiet.Q. When you brought them back again did you pay any money
to any person before you brought them back again? A, Oh; I
did not pay any money to any person then when I brought them
back.
Q. AftE r you hiad them back and buisiness v-u running on
pretty amobotJly did you pay any money? A.' Yes; I gaveI one
time $2100.A
Q.To whom did yougive the 1200? A. I oou2ld not say; I
eo'tld not identify the mian.
I'Ay Chairman Ljexow:
Q. as il": the ward detective? A. I coud. n-ot sal who it was
I gave it to.
Po y Mr. G3off:
QHow did you come to give him $200? AL T wa~s tod -~
some punson cialled on me, and sent me a note and said I must
pay coine money, and I heard afterwaxids that it wais a young
pollitic-al organization,; -I gave them money; afterwiards IQ. Wh~o skxut you the note? A. It was anonymous, no name
to it.
Q.Wh~at did the note say? A. That I had the girls there andt
mu-st, pay a little towards run-ning the businessl.
Q. After you~r receiv'ing the note did this persoit call on you?
A. A meqiple of weeks or a mouth. ateiwards, I do not know
how long.?.Was, that all the miouey you, ever paid? A> That is al
except I paid a little monthly money.
Q. To whom did you give, monithly moneiy? A. I don't know
the name.,
QWho did he aay ho'~ was? A.. He said h~-e was an o~ffi'ciial
I       TouldMo slaxv from  the headquarters or statiem~house; I
coi-ld r-iot say- wihich.
Q.fow mu~ch monthl-y money dild you gi-ve him? A. May be
in two or three monthz I gave $50; maybe a $100-ailtogether 1
gave himi.
-.I<dYeu ever give move tha~n $50? A.-No,, sir; because a
litdL-e while after I g-ave that mon~ey, a coiimple of mcinth~,I a
told to -shut up by a new captiain that came in; I do not know
his nan e.                       1
Q. Thie present carptalin,? A. No; T was told to Shnt up, and
I sent the girls away again, and sent the girls to Wilimbig,
Westchester counity.
L.    ~124




986


Q.Sent them to the srwbur~bs?. A. Yes.
Q. I od you pay any money while you were rumilug the fswe.
miihe~d-ivoom house? A. No, sir;,not at that time.
Q~Have you told the coni~xttee all the mi~dqwy 7-05  14  A~.
Except $60 a mon th.
IBy Marirnma Lexotwi
Q.Dd you give it om the first ott each month?  4. SontineeMIC
OR L~he Eith aaiu SoWIeJeS On the 8th, anud iaiea on.
Q. -But it was $50 rielt along? A. No, it was not; I told the
psities that came after it I had ci.  en to support in Brooklyn,
and I wats 3,cing in the lInsinesa, aud did not have it.
Q. Was the p~ice the) puL oLL YOU for cod-wtaiLion? A. No;
It was just — I
Q. And you excused yourself from paying as 'Much as that b)y
saying you ha-d a family? A. I had a family in Brooklyn and
named I had a daughter with a husband out of work-, and sometinme when I got my lead above water, I would give it; and they
did not ask any more.
QDild they ask- you for an initaton fee? A. No.
Q.When you paid $200, didn't the~y say that was an initatlon
Cee? A. No; they did nA. niake that remark.
Q.Do you remember the, na-me of the man you paid it to? A.
1Wo, sir; I do not; when he came after the money, there was a
chain on the door, and he said he was the person who came
after the money, and I handed the money out.
Q. How did you know he was after a ispecific sum of money?
A. Recause I had received this letter that I would have to give
some money towards the opening of this house.
Q. Was that mentioned in the letter, $200? A. No; that was
not mentioned is the letter;,but I tell you how it- was; the~
gentlemen that came said it was for a young political organization that had -just been organived, dio you see; and it was for
that reasou they cairn after the money.
Q, As I understood, you said a few moments ago that after
you reopened and got your girls t~here, somebody said to yu lie
wa's an official, that it wac about time you should pay some.thingr? A. Yes.
Q. rW as it upoxn thiat you paid the $200? A. Yes, at that time,
as they said, they would be around at a certain hour of the
night, on tiht week, and I knew the hour, and the person came
to thi- dboor aine said, "1I atn the party that sent -word that you
shorld bave to pay," and I did not open the dE'o there WMas
chain, and it wvas about 10 o'clock, and I took the money in the
envelope and put it out thirough the chain.




987


Q. Was 't the same man you afterward paid the monthly s'um
to? -A. No;: I donT think it is the same ma;it was, ath,
tallimaLn
By MIr. GToff: I
Q. W"hen you kept your house you were very methodical and
orderly in k-eeping your accounts, weren't you? A. Sometimes.
Q.You generally put- down your. expenses every day, the
moneys you paid out, didin't you? A. Yes.
Q.Jid. you keel) a bank account? A. No, sir; I didn't keep
any- bank account, for I never had nothing to put in the bank,
that is the reason; I have no bank account
Q. You kept an account with the girls, didn't you? A. Certainly; I had to keepj an accouant with them and give them theirmoney and all tha t.
Q. The moneys. that belonged to them, you would keep ain
account of. any moneys you gave to them to pay up a little
expense? A.% Yes, sir.
Q. And you kept an account of your grocery~bills? A. Yea.
*Q. And your rent? A. Yes.
* Q. And yotir beer bills. and things of that-kind? A.Yes.
Q. You put those entries in the book-yourself, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q.Do you recognize that as your amcount book? A. Yes;- I
recognive the man -that stole it out of the house over there; yeah,
I recognize it.
g.That is your hank book? A. Yes; the man came and said
he. had a house of his own.
Q.Now, we will just lcok at fhis 'book, Mm Sandford, and see?
A.You look at this bo-ok, but I1 must give my handwriting.
whether it is inine or not.
Q.it is yona book? A. Yes, sitr;itI's my.book;iftJisnotmny
handwriting..
Q. If it 'I's not your handwriting, how do you know it is not your
handw riting? A. I know very well it is not.
Q. You sadd you kept account in this bcok? A. Yes; I kept
account.
Q. In wbose lamndwrtin~g is it? A. Well, give me a pencil
here; I wvill look over that; ilire you going to, shbow me that?
Q. Oer'tainly; I only want to find crut whose w-riilng it is.; here
Is Rime t~ry. first paige, beginning, April 5, paid out; take the very
first pa nre: is that 'your handwriting? A. No, air; that is- not my
handwriting,.
Q. Whose bo-ndwriting Is tl'r'it? -A. Tbaft is not my bendwri4t'
tuIg; if yoou let me write here, you wil1 see it is not my handwriting,






988


Q. I am not questioning your word; whose handritinig b
It? A. It is a man I ued to have with me; that is dead I gueas.
By Mr. Niool:          1 
Q. Wit is that? A. It fer  man I used to hve with me hat
b dead. 
By Mr. Goff:
Q. His name is Me. Btyde? A No; hMs name is Bigiani
Q. He kept your account for you? A. Yes; that is right
Ohairman Lexow. —Why don't you pick out specific items?
Q. I will do so; tis Mr. Bilglaxnd used to keep yor aocounts
for youi, and put down all the money he paid out for you, and you
looked over the bcok, didn't you, every day? A. Nol; sometimes
I was away a week. 
Q. When you were not away, you looked over it?
By Chairman Texow:
Q. You kept a general run? A. Yes
Q. You knew those accounts were right, and you, looked over
them at the time? A. Yea 
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Now, here is an item under the head of 31st of December.;Chairman Lexow.- What year?
Mr. Goff.- The book does not show, Senator.;  y Chairman Lexow:
Q. Do you know what year that book was writan in? A. No,
By Mr. Goff:
Q. It was the year youl kept the hose —last year? A. Yes
Q. Now, there is an item here, "Mrs. Smith, $166," what was
that for? A. That was the mortgage of that house.
Q. That was on the mortgage? A. Yes.
Q. The next is "Bloom," that is the rent of the house? A.
Yes; that is the rent. 
Q. Two hundred and fifteen dollars? A. Yes.
Q. And that was the rent you paid every month? A Yes.
Q. Here is the month of Oictber, for instanee, "Rent, $125;;"
that is right? A. Yes, sir.




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989
Q. Now, here is a little item under October 12th; there is a
little item of "C. $500;" what does that s^nd for; there it is
(pointing out to witness)? A. That must be the $250 and a
couple of months I paid down.
Q. How do you aceount for $500 being in it? A. I paid $200,
andl $50 and $250 I gave; and I could not give all the money then,
and it was given in two different parts, but it was put down $500
in two or three different parts.
Q. What does " C" stand for? Al Well, I don't know.
Q. Now, Mrs. Sandford, look at that.acoount and refresh your
memory? A. Cit officials, I suppose.  -
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Doesn't it stand for captain? A. No, sir; it did not stand
for captain at all; I never seen the captain and don't know none
of the captains.      -         ' 
By Mr. Goff:
Q. When did you commence to pay the $50 a month? AL Well,
I commenced to pay the $50 about a year ago.
Q. How many months did you pay? A. After I opened I was
pulled by Captain Cross
Q. How many months did you pay? A. Well, sometimesI paid
it two or three months at a time, you know; after I got three
months in I would give it 
Q. Would you give it in $150? A. Yes; that is how I gave the
money.             {                I
Q. How did you count up, for how many months? A. I pay it
all together; you see $260 and $250 there, and that made $500.
Q. There was $250? A. Yes; anmd there was $250 besides..
Q. Who wrote that "0" there? A. I guess that is amy handwriting.                  -         t
Q. How did you come to put "0; " why didn't you put the ful
name of the person to whom you paid the moneys there; now,
you are sworn to tell the tuth here? A. Yes, air; I am telling
the truth. 
Q. Does that "0" stand for Cross? A No, sir.
Q. Why didn't you put the name of the persons; here we have
marked, shows, dresses, butcher, whisky, sundries and other items;
why didn't you put the items for that $500 there, instead of putting the letter " C?" A. Wouldn't you call that $5,000?
Q. No, it is $500, Mrs. Sardford; five and two naughts, and two
naughts in the other column; why did you put "O?"  A. I can
not explain that.
Q. You say that is in your handwriting? A. Yes, sir.




990!. lThe next item is for $10? A. City, I suppose; T don't know
what I put it down for.
Q. There is another, cheese?" A. That laks a very tfumy 0.
Q. It is a funny entry? A. I tell you what now, it would
fake something to find out about that; that might be meant for
a nmught, and a half stop.
Q. You recognize it as a C? A. I could not recognize it,
really.
Q. Why did you select a 0 to put $500 for? A. I don't know
whether it is C or not; now, " cheese," that is a different 0, isn't
it, Senator?
Chairman Lexow.-Yes; but there is a C; I don't think there
is any question about that being C; the only question is what
that 0 stands for?
The Witness.-Well, I could not tell you, Senator; I could not
tell you what; I could not.tell really whether I put that down or
not 
By Mr. Goff:
Q. You say yon recognize the lhnwrwttn?    A., Yes, th.
' cheese" is my handwriting.
Q. And that C too? A. That I couldn't certLifLn t(
Senator O'Connor.- There is no doubt that is a a,
By Chairman Lexowt
Q. You have no doubt in your own mind that you put that O
there, have you? A. I could not swear whether that is my 0 or
not
Q. Or those figures yours, the $500, following the C?
Mr. Goff.- Oh, yes; those figures are yours, $500?
By Chairman Lexows
Q There is no difference between those figures 500 and tie
next figures? A I don't think that is my handwriting.
Q. You won't swear that was your figure? A. I would not
swear to that; I would not like to swear whether that was mine
or not; I am very dubious about it.
Q. There is one 5 a charge you say you made; that is another
6, which you say will foot up this five, the same? A. Yea.;  By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You say you do remember you paid out that money?  L
tres




991
-Q.; Aboit $500 at that that ime? A. Not altogefber at tl&t QL
iuty off and on, going on three years.
Q. You pmade one payment of S500 4ere at tibt tune? Xt
tea, sir.. You made one payment of that $500 at that timet  A. XN
I never made a pajmeut of $500.
By Mr. Gofaf
-   Then, when you mnade this entry of Oetnher.ith, where 0 Is
$500, that represents all you have paid? A All the uouer I
have paid out.
By Chairman Lexow: I
' Q  Up to that time? A. Yes, altogetler T have any recolle
Uon of paying.
Q You did not pay any money after that? A. No; not as
I recollect, because I was miplo.sd to ruu a furnished-room
house off and on every couple of onutha.
By Mr. Got:
t. Here is an entry for November 1st of last year, "Rent t
Bloom, $125f' that is all right, isn't it? A. Yes
Q. Grocery man, $20? A. Yes.
Q. And then there is an entry here, Ward Beer, $125?.
(Chat is Ward, the beer man; he served me with beer.
Q Did you ever buy any tickets for any excursions? A.
'Yes; I often bought tickets for excursions
Q. Five dollars a ticket? A. Yes, sir.
0. Wio'oM d yon those' tickets?  A. I dont know  ho te
were; they were from political organizations.. What excursion was it? A. I couldn't just say.
Q. Don't you know it was the wardman of the precinct itat
sld you those tickets? A. No; I oould nob swear whether It
was the wardman or not that sold them, because when he wmno
I was sick abed with' typhus fever, aad I was out of my head two
or three days before that; that my doctor can certify to; I was not
the persom gave the money; I sent my daughter upstairs to get
the money and pay it
Q. What is your doctor's namne? A. Doctor Brothera
Q Here is a Dr. Carman, $10; was he the house pbysidlaa
I. Yes; at this time he was in the insane asyluan




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lyhainan t~exow:
Q. Do you know of others engaged in the same Thrntneps, livinq
around in the same street near you there, paying similar sumas to
whwb you paid?   A. Well, I teftou Senator, I don't know,
because I always kept to myself; I never interfered W~ithx any of
them, and never interfered with them, because they bEgrudge you
your life; each side of you, they think you are getting along,
better than themselves.
Q. Envious, you mean, and jeasious? A. Yes; they are jealous
and envious of you.
Q, Don't you know' as matter of fact when you made theme pays.
ruents, you were only doing what other in the same street were
doing? A. I don't know nothing about what my ne~glibcra were
doAing.
Q. Did this man who collected the money from you tell you
while he was collecting it, or any part of that time. that he was
making these collectibns, thait the orth-ers in the same general
business were doing the same thing; didn't he tell you that?
A. No, sir; one ltime they came to me for $5OO for another political
orgainizatdion.
Q. Didn't -they e-all it initiation,? A. No; they didn't call it
that; for. the political organization; the ciaptain or wardman I
know nothing -about; I can not swear anything' whether it was
them; and I know one day a gentleman called and said it was
for a political organization, -and I said do you want to get blood
ou't of a stone, and I put -them out.
Q. Didn't you know that other people engaged- in the same
business that you were. engaged In were paying the same kind of
contributions that you were? A. No;; because I don't know,
nothing about that; if I went too speak of it to,. any persona, in
regard to thast, I would get a short answer, and an-yone that VPok
to me at the sa-me time I would give a short answer..
By Mr. Goff:
Q.You did not want others, to know of ir and they di'd not'
want you to know of it? A, No; they would not tell about it;
they would not speak of such~ a thing; any of the people in that
business, they don't get very intimate among their neighbors in
that business; outside it is all right; I don't know the next door,
neighbor.
Q. And everyone keeps their own business secrete? A. Ev'ery.
omlte keeps their orwn business secret and because, as in the dr%
goods business, everyone don't like to see -their neighlyor Zget
along better than they do.




I I I,


Q This large sum of money you mention hmee yoi did not par
Miat ouit of a feeling of generosity 1xD the perun to whom- ym
gave it? A. I gave it thinking it was a political organirnatio
the first time.
Q. When you made this patymer4, did you not make it for a
certain purpose? A. I gave it for- that way, for a poitfieal
orgaizmon; but I cimn not have througlit it was a —7
Q. You thought thie political organization was an excie?
AL. y~i~m
Q. And it was the fact that you were giving it so nobody
mild inberfere with your ]Basiness? A. Yes; thaft is the fact
By IWr. Goff 
Q. Now, here is an item here under date of Deecmber seventh,
&rs. Sandford, and it is cash, "5," $50; would you please tell
as what that is? A. Oh, that is Mrs. Smith, cash "5," that b
-50 on the mortgage.t
Q. Why didn't you write out the Smith, the same as you did
before? A. That is' "S" for Smith; that is not my writing,
either; that im what It Is, "5" for Smith.
Q. And the entry is correct? A. Yes; the entry is correct'
-  And then on the 13th of that same month you paid Mmv.
Smith $100 on the mortgage? A. On the mortgage; yes.
Q. The entry is all right there? A. Yes; the aimount of the
moatgage; that is right  
By Chairman Lexow,
Q. Were you asked to make any   rhstmaaa piesen{s  ~1
Q. Do you remember around Christmas making a present of
money to anybody who came and afterwards got the monthly
outribugions of you? A. No; I never made Christmas presents;
all I tell here was, I bought a silk dress Saturday night which
was worth seventy-five or eighty dollars; I bought a dress for
$9; that is the first time I knew the ward mnan, and he came to
my house the next day with the lining of the goods; he spoke
to me and said, "Do you know anything about that?" Isaid.
OSure; I brought a dress of that kind op Saturday;" he said
"What right had you to buy it; yoknow it is sitolen; " I saMt
"Is -that so? I would not buy a dress that was otoken," because
one of the young men I knew well, and I did Mt think he would
bring a party to the house te-'


Ii.               125




994
g. Bo the detective came from Brooklyn? A. The dress was
sireen from Brooklyn; the messenger boy was knocked down and
it was taken from him, and all the present I gave, I said to the
ward detective, "Will you keep this out of the papers, because
I have a respectable family in Brooklyn of my daughters, and I
don't want that in the paper; and, if so," said I, "you will be
none the loser;" and I said, "Oome around and see me," and
when he came I gave him $20 as a present
Q. Wasn't it 30? A. No; $20.
Q. Are you sure? A. No, sir. 
Q Did your dress cost you $39 altogether? A. No; It cost
$29; $9 I gave for the dress and $20 I gave to the gentleman I
told to keep it out of the paper, and not to have any notoriety.
Q. You told the wald man? A. Yes; and the two from Brooktyn, I said, "I don't want any notoriety, as myy family is In
Brooklyn."
Q. He took the $20? A. Yes; with great hesitation; I said
* iat was a present; that was only right'f
By Charman Lexjow:
Q Didn't you make a present to the wardman around Christ.
mas time? A. Never, sir.
Q. Weren't you asked to? A. Never asked to, never sir.
Q. Do you remember the name of the wardman, now? A.
No, sir; I couldn't reemeber the man, nor the name, if I see him.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Here is an item on January 23d, Mrs. Caust; who is Mrs.
iaust? A. Show me, please,
Q. Mrs. Caust? A. That is Mrs. Smith's name, too; that is her
name when she was a widow; that is the same woman all the
time.
Q. Let us see; Mrs. Smith had a mortgage on your house, had
nhe? A. Yes; and when her husbbnd died this was her name,
when she was- a widow, and when she opened the house she took
the name of Mrb. Smith. 
Q. Yes; you owned the house? A. Yes. 
Q. Yo-  were paying a mortgage? A. Yes; was trying to
pay it off all the time, paying it in installments.
Q. Did you pay her every month? A. Every month.; if I could
not pay any month she waited two months.
Q. How much 'did you pay her? A. One hundred and seven
dollars and $110, and so on.
Q. Did you get receipts paying off on the mortgage? A. Yes.
Q. Have you all those receipt? A. Yes.




995
Q On account of that mortgage?. Yes.
Q. How munch was the mortgage? A. Three t6iosan4! dota %
- Q. Have you paid it off? A. Pretty near.
Q All inside a year? A. Oh, no.
Q. How long were you paying it off? A. NoW  T would be 
millionafre or a millinaifress if I paid it isinde a year; I paid f
at the inside of two- three years.
Q. Was there a mortgage on the house when you bought it?
A Why, yes; that was her mortgage.
Q From whom did you buy that house? 'A. I bought that
house friom Mms9 CaOist when sIhe became a widow and she took
The name of Smith, because she did not want to have her us.
band's nainein such a house; it was the same woman all the tirme
Q. Who ran the house before you bought it? 'A. I was hoauw6
keeper for her.
Q. For Mrs. Smith? A. Yes.
Q Jidn't youi buy a house from French Charlie? A. I botdl
a house from French Charlie on the 1st of December.
Q. Next doo?  A. Yes; as I told you it was a howe I bad
given to m6; I only paid $200, and there was a mortgage of I,4
on it.
Q. You only paid $200? A. Yes
Q. Was the house only woth, $1,500? A. The stock and Soa
fixtures and good will.
Mr. Nicoll.- She don't me.n- the fee, I understand.
By COhairnan Texow:
Q. This was a chattel mortgage you lal given bcwk n SO
purchase of this piece of property? A. Yes.
Q. On a real estate mortgage? A. No, not a real estate;-,
the house was worth- $25,000.
Q. Who is Mmr. Yard? A. Voss; that is the same woman, tC*
you know Mrs. oqss; I never knew the name right; that Voss is
ftust;~t     i's the nearxest I got it, as it was a German nametI
was the nearest I could~ get hold of it.
Q. How is it you came to enter the moneys you paid to b1i
under different names; why didn't you enter it all under Mrm
Smith? A. Well, I didn't, see? That is all.
Q fow did you come to enter it Mrs. Voss? A. That was why
I entered Mrs. Voss, because it is her first hmusband's name, and
she went by the name of Smith when she run the house; wbm
she signed business, papers she signs Voss.
Q Her business name is Smhith? A. Her name au -te back at
thse paers Ais Vosa.




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'996


t — ' ir her biusness name is Smith? A. Tn the house sie went
by the name of Mrs. Smith.
Q. And her married name was Voss? A. Faut; the last one
you showed me is Vosa
Q C-a-u-s-t is Caust? A. Yea.
Q. And tkat is the same woman under different names that
appeared here in that entry? A. Yes.
Q. Now here is an entry, who is "W. MrA;" do yom know any
persons with the initials W. M.? A. No, I do not; I can notfhow it to me, please.
Q. Yes, I will; this is under date of 1st of April, 'W. M., $100;"
what is that for? A. I guess it is meant for William Ward, $100
for beer.
Q. That can not be Ward, that is "W. M"   A. No'; I can't
itl just what that is -100.
Q. One hundred dollars even money; you paid it in cash, didn't
you, to whoever you paid it? A. Yes.
Q Can't you remember to whom you gave $100 even money on
the 1st of April? A. I can't remember, because it will be testng my memory too mueh; to tell the truth, I don't remember
what that means.
Q. You see, you paid out $54 for Ward the next day; that is
the beer man? A. Yes, sir.
Q Where does Ward keep his place? A. I really can st tell
you now; I am so long out of business.
Q. You are only out of the business since last year? A. Yes;
the 20th of August last
Q. Where did he keep his place when you took beer of him?
A. Twenty Market street, I think.
Q. Had he any other name tham WiiWam      Wirdl? AX &N
Wiliam Waard.
1 Q. In Market street? A. Yes
Q. A dealer in beer? A. Yes.
Q. Did he sell anything else but beer?  L No, sar.. Q. Nothing but bottled beer? A. No.
Q. His beer ran up to $65 a month for bottled beer? XL Yes,
rF.;. 
Q. You are clear that Ward represents the beer man? A. That
may be; I could not swear to it, whether that represents him or
not-what "W. M." means.
Q You don't know what "W. M." means? A. That is not my
writing.
Q. Whose handwriting is it? A. It is this man's that died..
i. The man that died that did business for you?. A. Yes.




",1 
Q. Do you remember whether tWe first name of the wardmaar
M' deteetive there was William? A. I could not tell.
Q. Do you remember whether he was called "Billy?" A. I
could not say.
Q. Domnt you remember his first name at all? A. No.
Q. Do you remember a wardman being there at all by the
name of William? A. No, sir.
&. After seeing that entry, Mrs. Sandford, —  A. I thought
that was beer.
Q. Don't you think that was two installments of the $50 a
month foir protection? A. I don't know; I could not say.
Q. Don't you know that was so? A. Maybe it is with that
$500; I could not tell; I can't tell what "W. M." is for —what is
the meaning of it,
Q. Didn't you hear of a wardman called Mooney or Murphy?
X It is years since there was a man named Mooney there; that
was while I was a housekeeper long ago.
Q. That is before you commenced to pay? A1 Before I bought
fte house; there was a man named Mooney flkere; but that hbasn't
anything to do with my booka.
'By Chairman LexoIwr
Q. Do you know there was a man -y ftEe name bf SmIth ithere?
A. I could not say.
Q. Are you certain that the initial "S" on your book there did,
not represent the wardman Schmidt? A. No; I could not say. 
Q. Does not the "W. M." there entered opposite the $100 stand
for wandman? A. That I couldn't say; it is not my writing.
Q. Your money went out? A. That is right; money enough of
me; my money went out; but that is not my writing.
Q. Don't you know to whom the money went? A. No, sir; I,
could not tell what that was for; now, it might be in that $500
Q. But -it may be the wardman? A. Yes, sir.
Q. It is probable? A. This part of it would not be there,
because it was $500 altoigether.
Q. But'that $100 went out at that time? A. Yes, certainly, it
would not be on the book it i did not go0 ou_
By Mr. Goffi
Q. You would not dispte the eourectness of that Item? X
That man used to drink very heavy, that wrote that down, but
he would write it down right,
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a. As a builnems woman, you kept a itrlct acdonnf of thie bunsi: -^ expenses of your house and the money spent out, didn't yol?.A. Yes.
Q. There is one other item I want to just ask you about; now,
there is W. M. again, $10, on July 7th; doesn't that mean the
wardman, too, " W. M., $10?"  A. Oh, no; I never remember
giving $10.
Q. Not so little as that? A. No; I don't remember giving $101
I can't tell what W. M. was for.
By Chairman Lexowi
Q. Whenever you gave it it was more than $10? A. Altogether, in going on three years, in owning a house, I gave $500;
that is aill I can account for; my memory san tax mae
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Now, you have frequently been friendly with the officers oa
the beat, haven't you? A. Well, sometimes.
Q. And you have given them money, haven't you? A. Maybe I
have. 
Q. Don't you know you have? A. Why, yes; if I had a drunken
iman come in to be put out, or 'somthing of that kind, I might sa
here's a dollar, take a drink or something of that kind.
Q. To the man on the beat? A. Yes.
Q. There is an item of September 7th, "0 tickets, $65;" what
does that mean - C and ticket; wasn't that the wardman's $50
and five dollars a ticket, made up together, isn't that it; $50 and
$15 make $65? A. I guess if you look over here they were
tiCkets I bought for diamond earrings, or something of that kind:
Q. Outside of those tickets? A. No; that is it; tickets I
bought; people in that business gets tickets once in a while.
Q. I ask you now about this item, if you remember, one month
you paid,$50 to the wardman, and at some time took three tickets
from him in this political excursion at five dollars a ticket, and
it made up $65 altogether? A. No; I don't remember giving $50;
I have $150; Idon't remember giving $50, making altogether $500.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Wasn't this $100 that stands opposite the name W. M.,
wasn't that given after the $500? A. No; it was not given afterwards. 
Q. Don't your accounts show? A. The accounts do; but at
the same time it might be put down in mistake.




~C'~ mou sai a motnemt ago 'that booiF was corecf; 'thai YOMrt
utust have given olat that mo~ney at that time; 'isn't that true?
-iA Yes,
Q. Did you allow youa' book1keeper to put down such a sum as
410as your expense at that time without exmnn  or boo,~froi day to day, without calling his attention to the error, if it
Was an error? A. so0metimes I might be away for a week...
Q.But when you came back, and you found a charge, of $100
against W. M.-there, if that had not been a correct expenditure:wvo~iJdu't you have called- his attention to it; you would have ~dii*
puted it, wouldn't you? A. Yes.
Q.You would have maehim account to you for the $100? A.~
Qg o it maust have been a correct charge? A.Yes
Q.That -is trae, iWat ift? A.- Yes, it mi-ght be; but what the
-'W- Mf. is for I can't state; but there is money there; I bought
ftck-&b; people in this business, we get - often times people
some down in the world, and they will sell these tickets.
Q. Your fist $500 is down: here for the 25th of Octob-er; that ts
ft~e month Of October, the 25th; now, I Rnd another item here in
$500; f  kloig April under date -of the 25th of April, under C for
40-sethere isle  $500 (I in October? A. Yes.
Q.There is one 4500, and I find here In the following April
anohe $5,    now what is that for —.the 25th of the following
Ipril?,
Mr. NIML-  hatyea, Mbeenf 
Mr.1 OMelIt -ust havyear Mr.n Go;3 whidle the date does not
appear here.
The Witness. —.Yes; you can not tell anything about these
iofodiS, there is no date there; the Items are all right; I could not
say about that.
Q. What about the second $500? A. That 'is the same $500
put down by an-other person.
~.Why, now, Mms Sandford; do, you mealq to say you kept
putting down the samne items one after another? A.. Yes; it
raust ba.
Q.Don't you ]know $500 is a lapge Mum of moftey; you see this
In the same handwriting as the other sum is in; that is- a large
Omn of money for a- poor woman like you? A. Yes; I know.
Q.You could not afford to lose $500 by any clerk or aniybody
wrking for you? A. Not at all.
Q.And you looked over these entries, as you testified, and saw
&ey were correct? Al Ye&~
('.What Its this second $500 for, -under "cC?" A. I bought $500
woartb Of furniture and CarPets and chairs.




'O000
QL From whom did you buy the furniture? X. From auction
Q. From whom and where? A. Some herl and some t]be.s
Q. Well, tell me one place., By Chiarman Lexow:
Q.At different auctions? A. Yes, sir; I bought $150 in Eighht
street, some furniture there, folding beds and one thing and
another; because the house was all run down when I bought it.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. This last item of April 25t, when was that-1893? [rA
P3es.
Q. Was this a year ago last April? A. Yes; I ha the bowe
all fixed up; I bought three carpetsa
By Chairman Lexow:
Q How was it that just came to $500? A. Well, with the,other things I bought; I bought carpets, and folding beds, and
Itook a piano and other furniture out of storage, and tihey al
together cost me between $400 and $100.
By Mr. ' off:
Q. Tell me in April any bill you paid? W. I had iMs in April
for the house to be all fixed up on Decoration day.
Q. Tell me any bill you paid to any houseman 25th of April,
1893, and we will see; now, tell me the name of a house that you
have furnished a bill of goods from?
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You remember you are under oath? A. I know.
Q. And if you don't testify to the fact; if you don't testify to
the truth; and you testify to a falsehood, that is perjury? A  1
read a paper, and know the law as well as the rest of them; that
is for furniture; I bought three carpets; I will tell you now.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Walt a while; if it was for furniture, why didn't you pal
down F? A. It was for carpets.
Q. Where did you get the carpets? A. Great Jones stree
near Bowery. 
Q. Give us the name of the man from whom you bought cav
pets? A. Dunn. 




i001


-Q. How much did you pay him? A. The carpets and all I 
bought there came to about $175.
Q. When was that? A. That was just in April.
Q. Now, wait a while; did you get a bill from him? A. Yes'
Q. Did you get that bill of goods? A. Yes.
Q. You have that bill? A. Yes 
Q. You will present that bill here? A. Yes, I have noif got
It tihere.
Q. You will bring it down? A. Yes
Q. That bill is receipted? A. Yes.
Q. Give me the next 'bill yo.u paid? A. Annd thtn I bougli a
folding bed.
Q. Wh- did youi buy tihat from? A. Comner of Eighh street
and IUniversity Place, Thomas Bowe, I think is the oine.
Q. How muchi-did you pay for the folding bed? A. Yes
Q. Have you a bill for thia? A. I guess I have that bill.
Q. The b1il is receipted? A. Yes.
Q. And you will brin.g it down here? A. Sirely; and,
altogether I bought other things -portieres.
Q. Where did you buy the portieres? A. In Thomas Bowe's
Q What did you give for the portiere? A About $10 or
$12, besides rocking chairs, and one thing and another.
Q. Were they om one 'ill? A. On< different bills.
Q. It was about the same day of April the 25tl!? Al I know
ft was that day I bought the folding beds and carpets.
Q. Anything else you bought of Bowe? A. Notlhing but the
folding bed and the portieres, and the lace curtains
Clairmann Lexow.-I think you und&estand the situation. It
Is simply to bring home facts to her conscience, that is all.
Senator O'Connor. —I think we all make up our minds whaib
that $500 covered.
The Witness.-T ht is down for carpeta.
Mr. Goff.-I am very clear, Mr. hairiman and Senators, that
we an prove that this woman is wholly mistaken.
Senator O'Coi-nor.-We don't think she is misl/em,  te we
think she is lying.
The WVtes -Lying! What!
Senator O'Oonnor.-Telling an untrrthL
- he Witness —Oh, no; I will bring the obl.n
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Didn't you say those entries iepfseted mameys paid to 
eaptain? A. No, sir; I did not; I said! I paid $20, tht it we
for a poitical organization.
E124a




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Q Didn't you say you paid mioney 'to Captain Dev~ry just
before he left the precimct? A. No, sir; I did not say so.
Q. Never said a word? A. No, sir; I didn't know Captain
Devery; but I say this, tha~t Il b~t4in my oWU Ooomaesimoe it Was
like, sonething like -that. 
-By Chairman Lexoiw:
Q. You 'believe it was? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you paid it for that purpose; that was part of the pay.
rnent to get protection? A. Yes; tbey did not tell me it was for
that, but for a political organization.
Q. Didn't you tell to the man to whom you were showing -the
Ubook, didn't you turn the book over to them to show the amount
of business you were doing A. Yes; that is right.
Q. These men came from Newark? A. Yes; that is right.
Q. And they wanted to buy the house in Nqw York? A. Yes
Q. And you told them you were doing a rushing business, but
vas willing to sell your house? A.Yers, sir.
Q. And in order to show the. business you did, and were doing,
you took out this book and &hter books to show the men what
money you took in, and paid-Out?  A. Yes.
Q. And you remember asliong those men if they had to pay:protection in Newark? A. No I did not' ark them, but they
showed me their boo'k, and said what they paid.
Q. And when thLey showed what they paid in Newark, you
took out your book to show whet you, paid? A. I did not show
but omie.
Q. You showed them the two Cs? A. No; it is a mistake; I
did not show them the two C's.
Q. The two C's were here? A. It might stand for earpets and
curtains I bought
Q. It can stand foir a great mny thinigs; a great many words
ceommeno~ing with C. A. A great many.
Di dn't you say it stood for c-aptain; that is the point; will,
you swear you did not? A. I will not swear whet-her I -said it or
not.
Q. Come, now; right down to the truVth. A. May be I did; bat
iwoulidn't swear to that.
I. If you did you said, then, what was true? A. Yes.
'Ry Ohmairman Lexow
Q When you told these men thiat the letter 0 heare in front of
the $5OO stood for captain, you said then whaif wasl true, didnft
you? A. I showed them one C, and did not -show them two.




''  *. -'~~~ -"~ ~;, ~7  -. 
t. 
1003
Q. You t    fd  e then mtiaftt artd for captain, didnt yon? A. I
u     'ldn't say.
Q. If you did say it, was it the truth? A. I never gave any
money to tihe aaptain; I gave the money, as I thiought, to a politi-l
oal organizaction.
Q. It is not a question as to whether that money went to the
captain, but whether or not, when the entry was made, tuiat 0
wus made to stand for the captain, whether he got tih money or
not; tart is the fact,  it, that it stood for the captaiu? A.
I oulI not say about the second Q
By Mr. Goff:
Q. The first 0 represented the captain? A. It represented the
political organization.
Q. You umedergtood when you put down 0 it was for captain of
the ward, or captain of the precnct?.A. I did not put down
the 0.
Q. Didn't you tell these men that were wanting to buy the
hbouse; didn't you tell tihea tlhat showed it woa paid  the cape
tain of the precinct? A. One C I did, but not the two.
Oiossexamiiation by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Where did you keep the house; what was the ate on whlc;
jm first coammenced to keep the house? A. I oonld not say; it
was the month of February I bough the house.
Q. What year; 1892? A. About that year.
Q. We are now in 1894? A. Last February I owned the house
two yea.r
Q. That would be 1892; then you kept the horjse from 1892
until some time in August, wihen you finally went out of tihe
business? A. I went onut of the business twice; I had it for a
furnished-room house twice.
Q. During the time you were there did you ever pay any money
to the captain of the police yourself? A. No, sir; I would not, 
know the captain, nor would I knoaw thie wardnian; the head
wardman, I do not nowm him.
Q. Did you ever give any money to any wardran and tell him!
to deliver it 'to any captain? A. No, sir; there never was any
such thing named as the word captain.
Q. Do you know the name of any man on the police fotce, or
can you idenitiy any man on the police force, to whiom you:paid
money? A. What do you say?
Q. Do you know any man on the police force, except the policeman on the beat, to whom, I think you said, you padi $1 to get
4..                         '...
- (  "', X,,-  0  1,;. 0, - '  ' "  -  '  '  '  '  -    ' -.  '  ^'




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1004


a drink, and the wend detective you gave $20? A. YesE Sir; I
gave it -to hMm for a presenIt
Q. Do you know the name, or coan you identify the man? A.
I do not know the man- a-nd oan not identify him; only I knew he
ha~d som'eiikg to do with the ward sttation-hwoue.
Ohairman Tjexow.- Is'that all, Mr. Goff?
Red;, ot-examination by Mr. GoPff
Q. Now, Mrs. San~dford, is your memory of -saying to thlee men
that came to you from Newark, these words, after asking you
hIYw mIUdh you paid for prot-efctino, you said, "1 Why, old man, I
can make your hair turn gray;" do you. remember saying tihat?
A. NTo.
Q. And will you sweax yoU dilnvort say that? A.. I wou1d not
swear I did not; I might have said that.
Q. "Old man I can make your -hair turn gray; $300 to the
captain and $25 a month~. and besides to the officer on the beaAt;"
do you reeemenber saying thiart? A. Yeo, I did.
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. Was that true, Mrs. Sanford; were you teMifng the truth at
that time? A. I might have said that on that night.
Q. Was it trae? A. I did not give $25; I only gave. $250 for
'a  ouple of mcIntls, because I did not have it; I woo shut up a
counle of mionthe; one of the eaptaine came hi there, before this
one, and nortiled me to shu-t up the house; that the houses were
going to be closed; and when I bought 22 the captibain, I heard,
said, "Wthat did you buy the house for; there is not going to be
any more houses here; the honses are godng to be *ut up;" I
got that word froolr, an loffidaL
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Now didn't you go on and my, "Why, when Captain (1ofs
came here he raise4 it to $500 a month;" do you remember telling
that? A. I don't remember; f500 a month?
Q. He raised it to $500? A. Yes; but if he did, I never gave
nothing to Captain Cross.
Q. You knew it? A. I didn't know nothing about it; I heard
that.
Q. Who did you hear that fron? A. I heard it from people
uptown.
Q. What people? A. People that kept these houses.
Q. People ftt kept the houses in the neighborhbod?:L. Yes,
Sir.




a month     A    gave a c  le of the   a month, but to some.
Q. You were subpoenaed for the trial, were't yo500? A. Yes, sir.
Lucy McCarty? A. Yes, sir.
*Q. And do you remember saying that if they wanted to send'
you up, or were going to send you up, that there would not be
enough in the Police Court to keep you, from hollering for IDr.
Parkhurst; do you remember tbat? A. Yes, sir; I said, it is too
bad, after my spending all my money furnishing up this house,
to think when I get going I get pulled every time, and I had tw*
or three times to break up the house and send the inmates away;
I did say that; yes, sir; I did.
Q. And you said, also, if they prosecuted you any further yoa
would make a clean breast of everything? A. Yes, sir; I did saw
that
Q. And you said, also, that Dr. Parkhurst was not down on be
houses, burt that the masses were mere down on the people wlh.
were robbing them? A. Yes, sir; I said that; that is right.
Q. And you remember saying they could not turn you out of te,
court room as long as you had legs to stand on and as long a.
yo  could shout Dr. Parkhurst's name? A. Yes; that is right;
and some of those gentlemen may remember that Dr. Parkhurst
was not so very good; and I said I heard some young ladies went
to him to give him some money, and his wife sent them down to
the kitchen to get a piece of toast, and they said a cup of tea an
a piece of toast was very poor for an empty stomach that didn't
eat a bit for two days; have you got that in the print there?
Q. Yes, that is all right; I was coming to that, but you relieved
me. You see I recollect that
Q. It shows what a good memory you have, Mrs. Sandford, and
you said if they pressed you, you only wanted an opportunity to
tell what robbers the police were; do you remember that? A.
Yes; well, they never robbed me much, because I never gave a
cent to the police that I know; I gave this thinking it was to a
political organization.
Q. You remember when you bought the house from French
Charle, you remember a man coming and riging the doorbell
A. Yes
Q. Don't you know he was the wardman? A. I didn't know
who he was
Q. Didn't you state he was the wardman? A. I thought he was
the wardman; he brought me word I should shut up that hoase 




1006


a -af tbere was no more houses to be in tiat street, ani I was to
shut up; I was shut up in the other house, and he said I should
hut up that house, as the captain sent word there was to be no: motre houses
I'     -  Q. When you went to the door and asked him, "What can I
ddo fop you," do you remember saying that, and he said, "Come
-   n, now, you know damned well what I am after;" do you remem.
ber him saying that to you? A. Yes, sir; and he told me on
lthat very night that the captain sent word I should not open
that house, and that my other house, the other house was supposed to be shut.
Q. And do you remember telling him you had no money, and
he tod-you he would give you until next Tuesday to get the
money; don't you remember that? A. Yes, sir; there was something to that effect.
@i      Q. And he called on you next Tuesday? A. No, sir; he did not..^Q. Or soon after? A. No, sir; he did not call on next Tuesday,
because the next Tuesday he was removed uptown; that is right.
Q. Now, tis wardman to whom you gave the $20 with regard
to the sllk dress to keep you out of the newspapers, you know his
warme don't you? A. No; I don't know his name, only a wardman.
-.J ' Q. Don't you know you said what his name was; don't you
remember calling him Glennon? A. That might be his name;
* I never called his name from the time he came there with the
party about his dress; I called him waridman; if I was to see the
man I would not know him, I see him so seldom.
Q. Now, do you remember a fellow by the name of Charlie
Keach? A. No.
1  -      Q. "Cock-eyed Louis?" A. Yes; those were the parties that
came to me for the $500 for political organization; I went to
the door and put them     out; "Can you get blood out of a
stone," and put them out; that is right; they came to me for
political purposes for some new organization that was going
to commence in the ward.
Q. Do you remember the name of the organization? A. No,
sir; I do not, because I did not give them time enough, when
they asked me for money to state it; I put them out mighty
quick.
Q. Don't you remember his saying he called with the knowledge of Captain Cross, and he would make it all right? A.
No, sir; they said something about Captain Cross, but what
they said, I don't remember.
jI      Q. Don't you recollect they said they came with the knowledge of Captain Cross? A. No; they did not say that; I
t         mremember Captain Cross was not in the precinct at the time.
I.    '*              




-.    I~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1007,
~.Do yen 1now    orther houses in twe neighborhood thlere
fkat gave money? A. No~ sir; I don't kuow; because (me's
busineoss was never known to another'.
Q. lDid you ever tell anybody you knew other houses? A.
Q. Did you ever tell -anything? Al. &~oetimes I might havfe
too much wide in and told it.
Q. Do you know Charlie D~avis? A. YeS.
Q. Of 33 Bayard street? A. Yes, of 3.3.
Q. Don't you remember having a talk with Charlie about the,
money he paid? A. No, sir; we never have any such conversa&
tion.
Q. Don't you remember he told you he had to pay $2,50? A.
Oh, Yes; for the political organizaftion; that is right; and I
said, "Oh, you are a fool;1" I said, I put them out; out of my,
door 'they went quicker than they came in, with a club Rt
t'hem; I asked them if they was going to get blood out of a
stone. 
Q. Do you know another main, a friend of yours who keeps
a licquor store, that had to hock his diamonds, to get the money
to pay; do you remember that he got $250 on the diamonds?
Al. I might have heard of such a 'talk and told it.
Q. Don't yuknow you have a particular friend -that had to,
pawn his diamonds to get the money? A. For a liquor store?*
*  Q. No, for this liquor oirga~nizatio~n you call it? A. I have,
heard off such things, and talked them over in the house.
Q. Don't you rememnber the man pawning the dia~uondo, partmciilarly; a very fln,6 diamond he had? A.Oh, no; I heard 
something of all that; anything I can bring to my memory, [
airt right here to state what I can.
Q. Do you remember whether you left your house, and went,
over to VNadame Thompson's and said these fellows -have beien
collecting for the political organization? A. Yes; they went
over there.
Q. Do you know thatt Mrs. Thompson gave them any money?
A. No; she dild not see them; she saw them coming 'in theL
window, and she, looking through them.indow, seen the gentlemen crossin them street, and she was out, by the way; I -was,
not out; I was there ready, but theQ. Don't you remember Mrs. Thompso~n telling you she went
to see her lawvyer to see whether she should pay to the  omanchbee Club $500? A.-No; she told me —I went over to. her;
Shte saw me in a day or two, and said, "'IT saw them coiuing, 
and I shut-my windows, and ivas out, by the way."
Q. What about your friend Joln Rlegan, who keeps the cmncethail, 27 Bo'wer~y? A. I1 don't know 1dm; I n~ever Vpse to,




1008


'Se man; T knew him as Began, the oarsman, some years ago;
bu r to speak to bun, I did not know him.; he had a place oa the
tBowery.
Q. Don't you know he had to pay to get his license? A.
Sure.
Q. You told your friend he paid 250?i A. I can not swear
what: I told the man; there might have been talk ahourt the
aeighborhood.
Q.They went over to Baldy Jones' to collect? A. Yes; they
Jld me they were there.
Q. Did you ever ask anybody If you could sue the captairs
and get hack your money? A. Oh, no; I never asked such a
qestionu-not as IQ. Let us see? A. Maybe, I did; I might; hut I don't rmember askingQ. Don't you remember that you said, that if the Senate
Caimittee was very good, th-at they could get back yor money
for you; do you remember ssrying that? A. I might say that;
I don't say I did or did not say it.
Q. You are on your oath? A. I know I am on my oath.
Q. And don't you remetmber stating you were told to keep
quiet until the Senate Committee got throug.Q altogether, anftiDgs would open up again? A. No; I was not toid that at
all. 
9. Didn't you -say that? A. I might have sidd That; It is what
I read in the paper.
Q. Didn't you:Fay thbat I' thoe -senate Cloommittee was an'
good, that they would get baclk the.,money foin  you, that yuu
had paid to the captaii? A. No; 1 I   mer mad~e siuch a-I r11!ak.
Q. Do you swear to that positively? A. I don't know wheq T
was talking to anybody of this committee was preseat or not; I
knew the Senate Committee would not do anything to get my'
money back, or anybody else's money.
Q Didn't you ask to find out of some lawyeu that would get
your money bmad? A. No sir; I never did.
Q. DidW't you say you wou ldle I to get the mroney back from
the captain? A. T never made such a remark.
Q. But you would liketo get it back? A. I.wil swear I never
m~adle that remark at a.l.
~. You would like to. get your mvnmey back; jon are a
woman? A. No; I doe't want tti back.
By Max-i-mm- Lelro~r.
qDid the nimple suggeatiom by the perom who went a   d
to those different houses that the captain did ort want any znuwe




169
houses open there, did that result i closing those house? A.
The captain sent me word to close my house, and sent word by
tihs wardman wiat business had I to open that house when the
houses were cosed; I made the remark I did not buy that house; 
I may say I had it given to me for the paltry sum of $200, whidc
I did not coansder mlch. 
Q. As sooa as the captain sent yuiu word to close the house it
was closed? A. Yes; it was losed.
Q. And every other hoause was closed as soon as the oaptai.
sent word to the person they must keep the house clceId? A.
No; they must move away, and the houses were not to exist any
longei in that street.
Q. In other words, as soon as the proprietors otf these vairious
houses understood the captain was going to close those houses,
they closed them themselves? A. I was tld to. close.
Q. And didn't other houses that were told by the captain close
them? A. Yes sir.
Q. And all that was neoessary to cloe these hoses was for
a wairdman to go around ad state to the various proprietors
that thie captiain wanted them closed? A. Yes, and if we dadt
they would fix us; I had 24 elosed at that time whien I bought
22, and I was sent word not to dare do busness in tiat hoarue;
and the captain would not have any mwe houses, and he didn't
want an.man to go i0 tlh si  door- i wei didn't,clo  he woud
pull u..
By Mr. Goff
Q. Waenc was f(es    W. Ba*f   g'S t or Septembev,
Q. That  a, whes Br. Pa.nrnrst was making a noi  arnom
A. I suippoe so., Q. It is very easy frr the captains to suppress these places
when they desire to do it? A. Cert(nlly; I sent away my girta
By Chairman Lexow.
Q. Places like this only exist by the ownfden;ce vyo  have that
yolu won" be cosed; that the police won't bother you; that is the
only reason you keep open, isn't it?  A. No; we ain't open now'.
Q. I understand; but when you were pen the reason you kept
open was because you had confidence the captain would not disturb you? A. If I get raided I would run out of the  reet; they
sent me word to close nu, and I closed Tp.
Q. And sent some of the inmates away? A. When I was told
a'tio  22 word was sent there not to do business in that house,
I,        127 




1010


Q. While you were going on, and you were not being interfered
with, you went on because you knew that these people at the
sfttkicn-house were not going to interfere with you? A. Yes, sin
Q.,Because you had paid your money to it? A. I never knew
I paid it t the station-house; I thought I gave it to the organiiVon. 
Chairman Leow. —Anything moes,,
Mr. Goff.-No, gentlemen,
By Mr. "Nicoll:
Q. I will ask did you pay any money to Gaptain Cassidy? A.
No, sir; Captain Oassidy was out before I came there.
Q. Did you pay anything to Captain Cross? A. No.
Q. Or Captain Mecaughlin? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you pay any money to Captain Cortwright? A Cap.
tain Cortwright? Never.
Q. Did you ever pay any money to the police force for the purpose of giving this money to them? A. No; I gave $500 altogether for what was supposed to be a poli'ical organization starb
ing in the ward.
By Chairman Lexow.:
Q. Did anybody speak to you about this political organisation
after you were subpoenaed here to attend before the Senate committee? A. No, sir; I never knew I was to come here before the
gentleman came this morning.
Q. Did you ever have any convesation with anybody before
this subpoena was served on you? A. No; the gentleman went
at my side until we got to the yard.
Q. Have you discussed what testimony you were going to giv9
here with anybody?,A. No, sir; I have discussed with nobody;
I have not talked with anybody.
Q. Have you seen any policemen sie the Senate Investigating
Columittee was appqiated? A. No, ir.
Q. Has anybody asked you to testify one way or the other?
A. No sir; I never thought I would be called here any more than
the dead in the grave; I was surprised this morning; I did not
know the meaning of this, that i'is gentleman should come with
a subpoena; I said, "Down in the General Sessiojh?" and I was
surprised; and he said, "No; it is in the Senate Committee; " I did
not know anything about coming here.
Chairman Lexow.-All right.   at is alL Your next witness,
* M.Goa.  \ 




I  7~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~0
1011
Emma -Jones, called as -a witness on behal of the SWa% behag
duly sworn, testified as follows: 
Direcit examination by Mr. Golf:
Mr. Goff- Mr. Chairman, will you. act as interpreter.
Chairman Ljexow.- Is Mr. Kempner here?
Mr. Nicoll.- Otto Kempner?
Cliairman Lexow.- Otto Kempner. lie was suggested as 
interpreter.
Mr. Goff.'- I think we can, get along with this witness
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Don't you think you can unlderstand enouighk llaish to
answer the questions? A. Well, I will try.
Mr. G-off.- We will try.
Chairman Ljexow.- You understand that whatever yon say bsere
*before thi's committee cian not be used against you in any prosecuTrion Or action that may be had hereafter; -that no~body Coal use
whatever you. say here - the testimony you give before this
committee. You are entirely protected, and it'can not be used
against you; so speak openly and frankly and loudly so the etenographer can get down everytlr~ng you say.
By Mr. Golf:
Q. Where do you live, Mrs. Jones? ~~ I l1ve in Brooklyn.
Q You live in Brooklyn? A. Yes. 
Q. Where in Brookly, Mrs. Jones? A. Morris avenue; I lived
Lhere under a different name.
(. You live there under a -different name? A. I did live -there
under ia different name.
Q Did you livein New Yor~k? A. Yest, sir.
Q.You are a married woman? A.' I am married.
Q. What -is your husband's name? A. It is llen~ry Joneg.
Q.Is lie the man that is called Baldy Jones? A. Yes, sir.
Q.Where did you live when you lived in New York? A. I
elwvavt was mostly-living Gut.
Q. Living out? A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever live in a house in Bayard street? A. I lived
In 32.
Q.Thirty-two Bayard street? A. And 21t
Q.And 21 Bayard stre-et?. A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you keep -a house there, Mrs. Jones? A. Not myself r
I always worked.
Q.Were you a housekeeper for anyone? A. I was cook.




1012


Q. And for whom were yon cook? A. In 21 was Lizie Bynine;
In 21
Q Lizzie Bynine? A. That is about two or three yeas ags
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Two or three years ago? Al Yes, ai
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Didn't you keep a house yourself there in Bayard street?
A. No; I always worked for Mrs. Davenporc
Q. But you had charge of a house there, didn't you? A. Not
full; she always looked out herself; she might leave forQ. You transacted business for her, didn't you; you conducted
it? A. I done the work for her when she went out; she told me
to look after things.
Q. Didn't you open up a house there? A. No; not for myself
Q. Well, after this woman; after this Mrs. Davenport? A. No;
there wasn't any more open after she left.
Q. When Mrs. Davenport opened up, you were the one that la
charge of the house? A. When she opened up?
Q. Yes? A. I don't know how long ago.
Q. You opened up the house for Mrs Davenport? A. I stayed
there when she left
Q. You stayed there when she left? A. Yes.
Q. You ran the business then? A. Well, I done t*e eig
and house work for her.
Q0 After Mra Davenport left you took oharge of the house?
A. Then there wasn't any mores 
By Chairman Lexow
Q. You said you opened up for somebody else; who was tVt
somebody else? A. I didn't open up for anybody.
Q. Didn't you buy the house of Mrs. Arnge? A. No, I did not
Q. Now, Mrs. Jones, do you remember going a few weeks age.o the Atlantic Garden one evening? A. I don't know.
Q. Don't you know where the Atlantic Garden is? A. Yea
Q. Don't you remember going over to the Atlantic Garden to
meet some men? A. No; I never meet any men.
Q. Weren't some men wanting to buy the house from you? Ai
No; the man wanted to buy a house I have bought in Great Jones
street, a furnished-room house, and he wanted to buy a house it
Great Jones street..i A:
Q. In Great Jones street? A Yea


0




1018
Q. Do you remember taking the bill of the play, or the pro
gramme and writing your name and address? A. Five hundr
aqd fifty-four Great Jones street
Q. You remember writing your name on the bill of the play
A. Yes, sir,
Q. Well, this man you were going to sell the house to thd
was -he came from Patterson, didn't he? A. I don't know.
Q. Don't you reaunmber him telling you he came from Patterson? A. I doa't know.
Q. What sort of a house was this house in Great Jones street?
A. A furnished-rom houe.
Q. And you had a two-year' lease of it, didn't you? AL Nso
sir; one year.
Q. One-year lease of it; what was the rent? A. Seventy ilw
dollars.
Q. How many rooms were up stairs? AL Thirteen.
Q Fourteen was it? A. Thirteen or 1U; 18 o 1i  w     I
aever lived there.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You never lived there? A. No, si
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Do you remember this man to whom you were going to sell
the house, asking you if he bought it, what arrangement he
could make with the police for protection? A. I said I could
not give him any —I could not say anything about that
Q. Youn'told him you could not give him any guarantee? A.
I said I can not, and he said several people give him so and s, 
and I 6ould not do that.
Q. You could not guarantee police protection? A. I could nit
I hadn't any myself.
Q. Do you remember telling him that he would have to make
arrangements with the police himself? A. I did so.
Q And do you remember telling him that he would soon find
out, as soon as he opened, if he did not make arrangements with
the police, that he would soon find out? A. I don't know.
Q. Don't you remember saying that to him? A. I don't know;
he asked me, and I said he could not tell me anything; he would
have to find that out himself.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did you say to him tihat he would fitfoi ot very q,
f he took the place? A. r did not; I L. dd he would  ae
and it out for himself; I couid not tell him auytbl.. 




1014
By Mr. Gof!:
4 Didn't you tell him you wi'e afraid now-people wene
draid; do you remiember saying that? A. No, sir; I didnWo't.
Q. Do you rememiber him aking you were you afraid, and you
said the Republicans afraid; do you remember saying that?
A.. NO.
Q You don't remember what you said at all? A. I remember
*  16at I said I could nost tell him anyvtfhing; he would have to fbid
ouwt himself.
Q. Yes, but when he asked you about police protectionn? A. I
maid I cold not teil.
Q. 1idn't ym tell him the people in New York had to pay for
probwtion?  A. No, I did not; he said people told him; and I
said, I'didn't know anytihing about it.
Didn't you tell him that, you had to pay for protection?
-:      &A. No; I did not
Q. You swear to that? A. Yes; I swear to thalt.
Q. You are clear about that, are you? A. Yes.
Q. lour memory does not fail you? A. No; he asked m~i anA
I told kvim he would have to find out everything himself.
Q. Is that all you said?  A. That is all I said.
Q. Didn't you say you had to pay $500? A. No.
Q. Not a word of it? A. No.
Q Will you swear to that? A. I will swear to tha;t
Q. Is your husband in court? A. He is not here.
Q. Where is he? A. He is working
Q. What is he working at? A. He is working.
Q. Where does he work? A. He works in Oouey Islaid; T
think his namie is Connell.
Q.- You saw him this morning, didn'f you? A.. Yes, and he
we-nt there this maorninmg.
Q. You remember last election day'don't you? A. Yes.
Q. And you were running a house of prostitution at Bagyard
fstreet then, were you? A. I worked there.
Q. Weren't you there? A. Yes, sir; I worked there
Q. And you are living there now? A. Not stea-dy.
Q. But you are living there; that is your place of resildence?
A. No: not steady.
Q. You are there,; you sleep there? A. Sometimes, not steady.
Q. You slept thpEre last night? A. Yes.
Q.Thereare a lot of girls there?  A. No, not now.
Q. Closed since the Senate Com=mittee was here?  A. No;
doked since last elelction; and it was not quite until the house
iot pulled on the 7R ot February.




Q. It was not quite uxvtl the 7tliof February; do you remflber
election day? A. I can't remebmler, that.
Q. Don't you remeniber election day? A. I remember eletioUm
day.
Q. Don't you remniembef the elections were held down stiik
in your hotise as a polling place? A. I think- yes; but I
didn't know anything about that.
M Then the day of the election, while the eleet-icw were
going on in thait bosement, you were up stazirs were you net?
A. Yes.
Q. And the girls in the htouse were up stais? A. No; there
wami't anybody.
4. Do you swear there wasn't anybody there? A. No; nothing,\
Q. On election day? A. No; there waanitl any men in tfih
house.
Q. Will you swear men did not eome from the waicee where.
they voted, down Stairs in the basement, up Stairs into the house
on election day? A. There is no entry at all.
Q No entry fron the basement? A. No sr.
Q. Has it been closed up smn<,qe? A. There is no stairway; you
have to go out on the street
Q. They went out on the itreet and went up on the stmoo? A
No; they never came any moa; the hmaue was shut up.
Q. You were there? A. I was there; bu~t the hioruge was locked
tip.
Q. How many e1letion days had you been in that house? A.
I never lived there stveady; worked between other people.
Q. Don't you know the voting has always been on election ky
in the basement of that house?- A. No; olly onoe.
Q. Last year was the only one? A. So long as I have been
there.
Q. How long have you been tbere? A. Four years, but not
steady.
Q. Watere else did, you iye, if you, did- not live in thie. houe 3V
rDayard street? A. Two years ago I was at home, in Buthrope.
Q. Any otiei places you lived away from 32 Bayard street? 
Ninety-one Division street  with Mrs Frank.
Q. How long with Mms. Frank? A. About three months.
Q. Any other place you lived awtay from 32 Bayard street?  ~
_Well, I was working; living out.
Q Where did yon live? A. In 33 Divisfcu street; amd- I worked
once in 33 Bayard osteet; I didn't stay steady in 32.
Q. But that is your husband's pLace, and has beeu for thels lt
four or ive years?  A. No sir
Q Didn't he man that house? A. NO sir




1016. Icm y't   know he was the Temanioy eleetion oaaalfan lat
election day? A. No, sir; I know nothing aibout it.
Q. D&dnt you see him standing on the sidewalk and giving out
ket? A. I know nothing about it
Q. Didnt you see your husband? A. No.
Q. Didn't you see  r husband last election day at allO?. I
lrFt know.                                        -
Q. Will you swear you did not see your huslband last election
day at 32 Bayard street? A. I don't know.
Q Will you sweae he was eitiher giving out tickets or ballots?
A. I coaudnt swear to anything; only I paid no attention; and
eome times he Is away a week and two weeks.
Q. Don't you know he was working around the election? A.
No, sir; I can swear to that;,he did not work around election.
Q. Was he with you all election day? A. No, sir; but he was
not around the house at all.
Q. How de you know, if he was not with yonu? A. He always
went awlay from the house duriing election; he said he wianted
nomting to do; he went to Philadelphia.
Q. Wlat about Philadelphia? A. For a visit; to go away.
Q You mean to say he went away last election day? A. I
are not say exactly eletion day.
Q. Do you know where he was? A. He never was around
fiere.
Q. Do you knmw where he was last election day? A. No, sir;
I can not say.
Q. Didn't yex see hin? A. He came home to eat.
Q. He came home to eat during the day? A. Yes
Q. Then wiat makes you swear he had nothing to do with
eleotion when you don't know? A. He was not arouad that
pkae; sue I would know if he was around- that place.
Q. You looked out through the windows? A. Sure I did; but
I da4n't t tbere all day.
Q Yom saw the men around the election place? A. I paid no
afttrrtkn who they weie; there were too many around all the
ftime.
Q As a matter of faot, the basement of this house was selected
by tve police cormmnfe oners for the polling place on last election
day.
The Witness. —There was a man had a clothing store that
let the plaee oat; my husband had nothing to do with the
hoesa
By O(M        Lexaowt
Q. You said that the house was closed up election day? XM
J was dcosed before that




110171
Q. Before? A Yes.
Q. And you said that it was then run on the quiet fromn. 
time on until the middle of February; is that right? A. X7th of February.,                                   i
Q. 'he 7th of February of this year? A. Yes.
Q. What difference do you make between a house being ope
and a house run on the quiet? A. I don't know.
Q. Is it in the one case that you have a promise of imnmnity
or promise of protection from the police, and in the other place
you run it on the quiet, so the police should not discover yoe
run it; is that so? A. When I run it, it was on the quiet, s
the police should not discover it.
Q. And when you kept an open house, you kept it in smai
a way the police would know all about it; is that the differemo
you make in making the answer? A. I don't know.
Q. When you speak of a house being open, do you mean a
house that is openly known to the police to be open? A. I
don't know that
Q. Wha.* do you mean by a house being run on the quiet?
A. The doors are closed and on account it was pulled two yearn
ago.
Q Because the police told you to close? A No; I don't know
whom told us.
Q. A wardan? A. I never seen a wardman, because I did
not deal with them, always the proprietor.
Q. The proprietor dealt with the wardman, did he? A YeS
sir.
Q. Did you see the proprietor of the house you were in dealing
with the wardman? A. No, sir.
Q. Never? A. No, never.
Q. Did you know that the proprietor was paying the war*
man money? A. No; I never seen anything, and she never tol
me anything; and the basement is let out to a man that keeps
a clothing store, and he lets the place out to the election; the
basement don't belong to the house at all; it is by itself.
Q. It is separate? A. Yes; it is separate; there is no stain
inside.
Q. While you were working in these houses, did you know that
tle police knew of the existence of these houses. A. No, sir.
Q. Did you never see any police around there? A. I seen
them walking outside the street 
Q. DIon't you know the police knew that house was beiag
opened and used for immoral purpoes  A. I dontt kmno
L.       128                                -




/


f     


1018
' Wby did yoa Cray that this house that you were In was
eiing run on t1xe quiet election day,'until February 7? '~: That.
In right inside.
Q.. What is the difference you make between a house being
opened and a house run on the quiet? A. I don't know the
difference.
Q. Was it because they told you there that they were run
on the quiet? A. That is all I am told,.
By Senator Bradley:
Q.Who told you to close up the house? ~    was not told
at all to close up the house.
Q. Who told you.? A. Mrs. Davenport, the prprl~pri-r
Q Told you you would have to close the housem? Ai. Mhe
pjle on- the 7th of February and then she left
fByChairm'an- Ltei*o:
Q. Seventh of February thlis Peahin  ~ til yel  P   IOc
Mat she had nobody.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You remained there? A. oSsne times.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q Were you pulled, or was that house pulled before election
day that made this difference between you running publicly
&ad rumning on the quiet? A. It was closed most of the time.
C. Before election day? A. Before electiion day.
Q. How long was it running openly before election day, until
what time? A. I think only a couple of weeks; but I was three
years ago I came from Europe.
Q. When did Mrs. Davenport start to run this house on the
quiet when she commenced running it on the quiet?  A. After
It was pulled, two years ago.
Q. After it was pulled two years ago? A. Two years ago.
Q. And has been running it on the quiet ever since? A. Yes.
Q. Until the 7th of Februamr? A. Thk- 7th of February; yes
Q. And before that she was running it openly and publicly,
was she? A. Sometimes she had the door open, and sometimes not
By Mr. Goffi
Q. Mrm JoneJ do you reneinber paying a hundred dollars one
iaturday evening to Wardman Glennon? A. No; T do not




1019.
(.Do you remember when Caiptain Devery left the precinct?
A. I don't know anything about the captains;, I don't kilow th
captains
Q. Do you remember saying to any one you had to pay a husdred dollars the Saturday before Devery left the precinct?A
No.
Q. You never said such a word? A,~ No.
Q. Do you remember telling those men that wanted to buy the
house from you that they would do better by starting a one-dollar
hiouse than a two-d-ollar hous-e? A, I don't k-now that; you ask
them them questions yourself; I don't know.
Q. Wbat did you go to the Atlantic for, anyway? A. Oa
account he wanted to buy the place 54 Great Jones street from
m~e..
Q. You wanted to sell a place to them? A. Yes; 54 Gremsi
~Jones street
Q. And you had never run this place 54 Great Jones street
~yourself? A. No.
Q. You knew 'they wanted to run that house as a house for,
women? A. No, sir.
Q. Didn~t they tell you? A. Who?
Q. These men that wanted to buy a oumse? 'A. 'They said they
wanted to rent it.
Q. They said they wanted to rent It for women? A. I salE
that is nothing to me.
Q. And you told them the number of rooms in the house? -A.
Yes; and I showed them the rooms.
Q. Didn't you tell them, you had paid the police to allow y
to do businiea? A. No, sir; I never run that house up there.
Q. I aim asking yotu about the house in. Bayard street; dM~t
you tell them you had to pa-y money to the police? A.- No.
Q.Didn't you tell them you had to pay $1,OOO. for a house In
Ba~yard street-$500 a house? A. I did not.
Q. You under~stood me, did you? -A.. I did not tell themi
Q.You understand what I -am saying? A. I guess so.
Q. And you know you are under oath? A. I did not tell them
anything.
Q. Do you know you are under oath? A. They would not am
me.
Q. Do you know you are under oath, Mrs, Jones? A. I did- not
tell them anything like that.
Q. Do you, know you ame under oath?
Q.Just answer the question do yviu know what yoaf ameEb




1020
an& swear ng tmder oath?!X& Yes, I oaA swear I dfl6
dt~I~em aythin I1 ke &A
By Mr. Goff:
Q. You know if you tell what is untrue that &iiat Is perjry
you know what that is; do you know what perjuary is? A. NOb
Q Do you know what a false oath is? A. alse swe-a-rinig
By Chairman Lexow:
Q False swearing- (repeating it in German)? A. Wel, I never
t*M them that.
By Mr. Goff:
Q~Do youknow what faise swearingis?   Surem
Q Do you know if you commit false swearing what will lieeome
el you? A. I don't know; I don't swear falsely.
IQ. Don't you know you will go. to State's prison if you swear
flsely? A. I do not swear falsely.
* By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You know the punishment for false swear~S ft ft-e fe
sison, don't you? A. I don't swear false; I never said anything
he that.
Q. Did you ever say Captain Devery was the best captain you
ever had in that precinct? A. No, sir.
Q Never said anything at all? A. No; I did not; I never seen
(aJptai~n Devery.
Q. Did you ever mentimo his name? A. I did not.
Q. How long did you sit with this man In the Atlantic Gardenb?
A. It is abolut 10 minutes.
Q. Only about 10 minutes? A. Yea
Q. Did you have some beer? A. No; I did not
Q. Where did you see them before you went to Atlantt
Garden? A. In no place.
Q Did you meet them in the Atlantic Garden? A. No; they
met me.
Q. la that the first time you ever saw them? A. Yes, sir.
Q Whalt brought you to Atlantic Garden? A. They asked me
to sell the place 54 Gretat Jones street.
Q. What mtade you go to the Atlanti~ Garden in the first place
If you dJd not go to meet thoseemen there? A. they told me to
go there.
Q. When was It they told you to go theret A. I can not tell
4ke date.




pa
'al
Q
p
'.
I.
IU


i i'
0'
& -
P.
I 
IP




1022


Q. At Chrystie street? A. I do'
Q. And what is the nature of your business? A. I  eep a
variety,
Q. A variety hall? A. A concert hall; the last 16 year.
Q. You obtained licenses from the various mayors of New
York, didn't you? A. Always,
Q. Mayor Hewitt, even? A.'Before the Honorable Grace was
mayor, I had license already.
Q. ifr. Hewitt made a particular inquiry regarding your place,
didn't' he, if you remember? A. Yes; I dot
Q. And Mr. Grant, when he was mayor, he gave you a license
also? A. Always
Q. Have you a license now? A. No, sir.
Q. Has the present mayor refused you a license? A. He did.
Q. Do you know why your license was refused this time? A.
On. account of a bad report of the police, of this present Captain
C ortwright
~-     Q. On account of the report of the present captain; did you
ever have any trouble with the captains before that? A. With
ths precinct captain?
Q. Any before Captain Cortwright?  A. No; never; except
with Allaire.
Q. What trouble did you have with Allaire? A. Allaire was
that kind of a man; I would not do what he wanted.
Q What was that? A. He wanted of a dollar, 99 cents, and I
would not do it
Q. He wanted what? A. He wanted of a dollar, 99 cents, and
I would not do it.;
Q You mean every dollar you made in your place, he wanted
99 cents? A. Yes; he wanted 99 cents.
Q. In other words he wanted money of you, you could not give?
A. He wanted it, but I never paid a cent, because I am rualing
a respectable place -a family resort.
Q. You felt you were not compelled to pay a police officer? A.
Not a bit of it; I would not pay a cent.'
Q. Was you troubled after that? A. Never; there was Captain McLaughlin, a nice gentleman; Captain Cassidy treated me,
like a gentleman, and he said you keep a very fine respectable
place, and I am proud of it; and so did Captain Devery, and he
came often' in my place, and he said I am astonished you keep
such a nice place in this street; I give you credit; you keep a
very nice place. 
Q. When Captain Allaire was there, who made the demand on
you-himself? A. No; never himself; some of his men.
*O Q. Was that the only police captain there that either throug
himself or his men made a demand on you? A. That is all




.1023
4Did he make a demand on you MOre than once? A.Yes-,
mostly every week, amt long afs he wast there; when they found out'
they could not -do what they wanted with me they arrested nme
every other day.
Q. They arrested you? A. They tried to break me up entirely
and coould not do It.
(j. When did your license expire? A. On the let of Febtuary.
QOf this year? A. This year.'
(.And you have, been running the same kind of a plac'e tha
you have run for the last 15 or 16 years? A.. Yes, air.
Q. ince, ]3ebrnary? A. Yes; since February.
Q.  nd en Copai Cbrtwrighit came into that precinct? 
esi fr.
Q. And you say Captai-n MeTauigllin and Captain Devery and
otber captains went in there. and expressed their satiifaetiok
with your plaAke? A. Yes- they were satisfied.
Q.Wab Captain Cortwright in your place? A. Once in the
sfterneoo, when I made an aptplication for an excise license.
Q. What did he say? A. lie did not say anything; an d I1
said, "1Have you anything against my boy taking glasses;" and
he went out and did not say a wo~rd.
Q. Have you be'en told anyt(!ing ablout keeping quiet whle*
this investiga~ting dommittee is in town? A. Yea.
Q. What his the effect of wbhat you have bemn told? A. WdiJ
tliere awe los of frlkend's tb0erm
By Cha~rman Le"w
Q.Who told YOU? A. ThMere was different paties.
Q.Polkce~men  A. No; pr'ivate men; business men; they 
down and asked the -captain why they don't give that MMe
is Icense and glive him a gowd repor't~ and they gave bim to
uniderstaind I shoul keep quiet umilJ you left the city.
By Senaftnr Ckautoi':
ThL~ese wer e huoiieasamm y*U spsk Of?     y(O
By Mr!. cani
Q.These, men went down, ib the cpabyou say?   A. Ye"
*,ey grave a good report for me and 'Saiid I keptA a respeetable,house for a good many years.
Q~ A nd after they visited the cap~tamin they came and told
ouyushkould keep quiet? A.. Yes; I should keep quiet until
the coinini'tee left the city.
Q.And then you would receive your license? A. Yes..4
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1024
Ooms-exaniinaoton b.y Mr. Niwcofl
QWhen wasalltWs?      A This Friday; it was a week tfmeW When was Oapfain Allaire in the disrict? A. Sffix or
seven years ago.
Q Of ouirse, since then, we aive had Captain Cassidy, Captain
ross, Captain McLaughlin, and Captain Dev'ery, and Captain
Certwright?  A. Yea; th-e present captain.
Q. Ile was prior to all thiose captains; he was ahead of all
tose captains?  A. Who; Allaire was the first of all of them.
Q. Now, I understood you to say that when Allaire was
ithere he raided your place on several occasion? A. He did
not raid me; he only arrested mie on account of the excise,
and on account of my giving a conicert Sunday; what we call
a sacred concert; when the band played a tune that was lively
be said it was no sacred concert, and if they played -marches
the next day I was arrested by a warrant; and Justice Duffy
got sick of it, and said that it is a crime, and said what
is the reason.
Q. You felt pretty bitter in!consequence of all that, didn't
you; you felt pretty sore of Allaire?   A. Did I; can you
blame me?
Q. You felt sore of Allaire? A. Not very sore; I only wanted
julstilce.
Q. You never had axiT onver'sation- wimh him, did you, on
fe lSubjeot? A. Oh, very oftem.
Q. Did he ever demanad money of you? A.i He never said
Bat himself; the only remark that he made was when he left
me, he said, "Don't forgetl me."
Q. Did he ever ask yom for a dollar? A. He never asked
me for a emnt
Q. Tell me the namie of any of his ward detectives wboh six
or seven years ago, asked you for a cent?  A. Ward detectives;
Oh, well,of curse, they are aIll outoathe wardnow; tloy air
all different men now; some of them they discfarged and some,tey assigned, and some went into other business, and one of
tihem is Ducail, who keeps a plaice on COihton place and bowling
alley on Sixth avenue.
Q. These men are not on the fomve now? A. They are not
va the force now.
Q. This year you applied for a license?  A. T did, always6
Q. And you did mot get It? A. Not for the'last four mantbsy
my licewise expired the 4th of Febrry.
Q. DMd jaw  Ioemse expire with tbia boezd of eem? A. I




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1025
Q.What other fliense did youI aipply for? W7. WK conert lloinse.
Q. That has to be applied, for tb the mayor? A. That com~es
born the mayor; thei- mayor has to sign it.
Q.Has an investigation been made of your place? A. Very,
otften; yes.I
Q.And an adverse report made ag-abint It by Captain (btt
wrgiA. Only by him.
Q.And on hIs repo rt the mayo~r has refused to grant h1%
lficense, hasn't he? A.. Yes.
Q. You are sore about that, airen't you pretty sorre? A. Well?
there is no reason there whatever.
Chairman Lex-ow.- Any further question? Thut is all.'
Mr. Goff.- Olle moment.
Q.You. remem1eer, _,r. TKrurum, you remember who the wardmaen were there? A. Lately?
Q.Under Allaire? A. Yes; there wtas different men. detailed
NWi pdflmte duty; cue man by the name otf Stafford, one by the
name -of Ducall who k~eeps a hotel or lager beer sa loon on Edghtk
street near Sixth avenue; and Stevens.
Q. Do you remember Sullivran? A. Sullivan was imder CYanaddy, not under Allaire.
Q.Do you remember Ernest Byer? A- Yes; -he was undf
W&lalare and he never arrested me under such questions.
Q.Do you remember the man Willson? A. Yes.
Q. Re isg there -now? -A. lie hats resigned, on Iiaf pen~Yn.
Q. Aren't you mistaken? A. No, sir.
Q. Isnt it Beyer that has resigveid 'on penvion? A
Wilson is one week on pensimn
Gustave Prelil called as a w4tness (n behef at the ia*i
being duly -sworn testified as follows:
Direot emimaonby Mr. Goff:
QYou. henid thie testifmoy here to-day, hiaven~t you, front
many of the witnesses oti the stand? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What business sire you in? A. No business at all now.
Qj Were you ever in the liquor busiiess? A. Some four yeaiw
ago.
Q.You are aware that mny witnemss who teati-fiee here Is; pro.
keeted from prosecutJon for anything he may -testify to under
thos investigation; you am~ awme ot thit, are you? A. Yesjl I
mider~tand tlhat
By Chairmuan Lexowi
Q.You understand anything y~ou say her can not W~e useE
against YOU~? A. Yes.
L. LI-        129




By Mr. Goff:
Q Were you in bsiness for yourself in the liquor business?!A. Yes; Hi 1890.
Q. Where was your place of business? A. Eight Avenue A.
Q. It was an ordinary liquor saloon, was it? A. It was a
sloon. m
Q. Had you a lioemse for that plaice? A. Not my own liense;
Itiere was a license there; the license was not trnIsferred at
that time, and thii license was not signed on the back side of
it from the owner of the license, so I had to keep the same
licenee, and I did not calculate to take a license out anyway.
Q. How long did you run the place that way? A. About three
or four month.
Q. So, practically speaking, you ran your place without a
license? A. I did not have my own license.
Q. You did not have a license for that place? A. No, sir.
Q. Iid the policemen on the beat know that? A The excise
inspector did.
Q. The excise inspeotor did? A. Yes.
Q. At one time, with him, to keep quiet about it? A. I paid
him so much a month,
By Mr. Nicoth
Q. Paid who? A. Tlie exse Inspector; I paid live dollars a,
month, I think.
Chairman Lexow.-Is this applied on the police banks or the
excise board?
Mr. Goff.- I donlt know what it will develop, Senator, so far.
The Chairman. ---Let us take the testimony, and if the excise
board want to be represented, they can be.
Mr. Goff.- We have got to make use of the material that
omes to our hands
By Mr. Goff:
Q. You paid the excise inspector, you say? A Yes, sIr.
Q. How much did you pay him? A I think I paid hni probably three times, $5 each month.
Q. What was his name? A. I couldn't say.
Q. He was excise inspector for that district? A I forget,
now; I knew where he lived; I don't remember his name.
Q. Where did he live? A. He lived on Avenue A and First
street, I think.. Did he go to your place to collect the money  A. To oollect the money? 




Q DId the peliceman knew anything about yor rmning a
place without alfloeme nse?  I think that, as long as he gottt
nobody else got that money; I was not bothered otherwise.
Q. Did you have any friemis with the ward=min there??
Not as I remember, exactly.
Q. Wbat? A. I don't remember exactly; It was in 1890.
Q. IDon't-you remember that you had some connection with a,
wardnamn about that time? A. I don't know who the ward-man
was at that time.
Q. Didn't you pay somebody else some money besides the
excise inspector? A. Well, I couldn't say that, exactly; I don't
tiink so.
Q. Now, Mr. Pra~l? A. I do not thiiik so.
Q Don't you think you would know if you did? A It is so
long ago; I would not -
Q It is only four years ago? A. I didn't calculate to eome
here to testify.
Q Don't YOu know you did pay money to a wardman there
now, you say under oath, Mr. Prall, and you are an intelligent
MMnu and you know the penalties of perjury, and yOU don't went
to commuit perjury, I am sure - Isn't It a fact that you did pay
money to the wardman? A. Well, I did not know who thes
wardman. wa.
Q. You did pay money to somebody else besides the excise
fnspectior? A. I think I pkid once $5; It was not the wardman;
I think it was the sergeant
Q. We will take the sergeant; who was the sergeant? A. I
don't rmember.
Q. Where was it you paid the sergeant? A. Right In the
saloon.
Q. Wasn't It the sergeant of that preoinat  A. In the Fifth
street station-house..
Q Do you remember the captain's name that was in the pro
cinct at that time? A. I don't know; I did not know antyody.
Was that all the money you paid? A.That is all the
monoey I paid.
Q That sergeant knew you had no license? A. Well, what I
zemember, I think that he came in with the excise inspector,
together; he and the excise inspector came in together.
Q.And you gave eaoh of them $5? A. Yes; that is what L
sPemermber.
Q. Is that all the money you paid?  A. I paid more to th.
excise inspector.
Q. Where? A. On Twenty-seoond street, between Third and
Second avenue; I kept a plaie once; I didn't haive no license;




1028
Were wats just a new IHconse taken ou  and ftlaiE was hi 1891;
I think it was.
Mr. Nlicell.-TI don't know anything about -representing the
excise board here, and he has ewhausted the police part of I.
The Witness.-The police never bothered me there.
Chairman Lexow.-This evidence does not seem to be against
tbe excise board, but against an inspector.
Mr. Nicoll.- No; against an excise commissioner.
Chairnan Lexow.- mnasmuch as you do not represent the
excise board, I do not see why you objecti
Mr.- Nlcoll.- I simply address myself to the committee in the
sense of fairness
Senator Cantor.- I suggest ft to the committee,. thiat the
testmony affeted the exciseboard, and the excise board ought
to be represented. I do not see any objecdtto  to taking bis
testimonty, however, as thbe witnes can be got againm
By Mr. G~oM:
Q. Will you proceed? A. There was a license In Twenty.
second street, between 'Second and Third avenues; I did not
inciline to keep that place; it was suec a rough place there; I
did not get out a license, but kept the license just the same,
and one night the exmise inspector came there; and one 'night
I 'came home and tihe bartender told me they were going to
close up the pkvce, becanse I did not have the license, and
I gave, each one of them $5.
Q. Each of the inspectors? A. Each of the inspectors, and
the place was kept open, un'til I sold it agaian.
Q. Was that all the money you paid? A. Yea
Q. Did you pay any more money at any other time? A. Never.
tibat is the only two plaices I kept any liquorn business
Q. What business are you in now? A. I keep, a restunrant
for two years, and last I kept a summer hoteL
By Senator Bradley:
Q Where do you live now?    K Two liuindred aaI   miR e
0drty-sixth street, Brooklym.
Maairman Lexow.-Do 7Gu want, in ask &W    Pj ueut-Sm
Mr. NieoiL-.-X




109


John McElroy, called as a witness on beha l of tbe Sta
being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Dikot examinatioD by Mr. Goff: 
Q What is your business? A. Produee bislnen.
Q Produce? A. Yes.
Q. Where are you engaged? A. Six and 7 Manhattlan Market,
Thirty-fourth street
Q. West Thirty-fourh street in this city? A. Yea.
Q. You have got a nephew on the police, havent you? A.
I have not, sir.
Q Have you a son or any relative on the force? A. No, sir.
Q. What is your full name? A. John MeElroy.
Q. Have you got any nephews? A. Nephews; yes
Q. What are their names? A. There is one of the name oa
Leffels; there is another of the name of Scanlan.
Q. Where is your nephew Scanlan? A. He lives in Spuyte,
Duyvl. 
Q. Wet is his business? A. Workingman
Q. When did yon see him last? A. It mnas be,ta  months
ago% I think
Q. He was then working? A. I couldn't say,
Q. He was tien in the same ocupatmli he was? ~ I sp
pose so.
QO Laboring man? A. I suppose so.
Q. Was he ever on the police, do you know? A. No; he wa
never on the force.
Q. Did you ever have a nephew on the force? A. Na
(. Is that the only nephew by the name of Scailan you have?
t. Seanlan and Leffels; Leffels is in Brooklyn.
Q. That is the only nephew of the name of Scanlan? A. Yea
Q. Did he ever live in Yonkers? A. Na
Q. Is he a married man? A. No.       t
Q. A single man? A. A single man.
Q Do you know if he ever tried to get on tie police fcre, ie
your knowledge; if your nephew Scanlan ever applied to go on
the poliae? A. I thik he did.
Q. How long ago? A. Well, I could not say how lung since he
applied to go on; I could not say that
Q Did you sign his papers? A. No; I did not
Q. Had you anything to do witi trying to help get -him on?
A. Nothing at all, sir.
Q. Do you know why it was he did not get on.? A. I do not
Q. Was it within a year he applied to get on? A. I couldn't
s.ay.                                  I.-..-.. -— '
Q. Within two years? A. I couldntt say.
Q. Within five year? A! I don't know.
Q. Within 20 years? A. I don't know.




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1080
4Q. Witmin a hirnndre  years? Al I S6o fl Enhw.
Q. Do you know anything? A. I don't know anything about
wra't he did; I have not been to Spuyten Duyvil wihi. 12
or 14 years.
Q. Where did you see him in the last two months? A: I aw
him in my, house.
Q. Wrhere and when did you see him at the time he applied
to go on the police force? 'A I believe he came down to be
examined, and he cailed that afternoon in my house, as he was
going home.
Q. How long is that ago, as near as you can reoollect? A.
Wblout two months, I think.
Q. About two months? A. Yes; it may be two months, or
less or more.
Q. You said a little while ago you did not know how long it
was ince he aypplied for appointment on the police force, and
now you say about two months ago? A. No; I did not; when
he applied first I do not know.
Q. Do you know when he applied first? A. I do not.
Q. Did he tll you when he applied first? A. He did not.
Q Did you hear anything at all about his going ono the police
force except when he visited you about two mrenthi ago? A.
8iis is the first.
Q. And the only time? A. That was the etly time he oame
to me going home; he was down getting exmmiried, and he
called and got dinner, and I think went home then.
Q. And that is the only time you heard abort his trying to get
on the police force? A. That is the only time I believe I beard.
Q. Not what you believe, do you know itt was a fact? A. I know
it as a fact.
Q. That s te e only time you heard about his going on the
police force? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Wasn't you a little  urmprised when he told you, he wa
down to be examined by the doctors? A. Not at all.
Q. You have not got any sons of your own, have you? A. I have
Q. How many? A. Two
Q Two sos? A. Yea
Q. Did you ask him when he had applied for appoint ent? X1
I 4id not.
Q. You took no interest in him whatever? A. No, sir.
Q. Did he ever owe yon any money? A. He never did; nom
Q. Does he owe you any money? A. He does not
Q. Did he ever borrow any money? A. No.
Q. Do you keep a bank account? A. I do.
Q. Where do you keep a bank account? A. In the West Side
Bank. 




1031


T


Q. X  b c fdepott? X Yes. 
Q. That is Fortynsecod street and EIgiA- avenuet 'I? Ttbyourth street and Eighth avenue, right around the corner.
Q. Did ymi have a bank accosnt at the time your nephew caled
on yon? A. Yes; I have had a bk account te lab 25 or 30
years
Q. Did you draw a check to the order of yon nepsew? A.
Never.
Q. Did you ever have a check cashed for him?. Never.
Q. Did he ever ask you? A. He did not.
Q. Did he say anything to yo about t beig difieotut 'H get o 
the police? A. He did not
Q. Did you ask him whether it was difficult'! A. -o.
Q. You were thoroughly indifferent whether he gt on or ot?
A. Yes.
Q. Thoroughly indifferent? A. l-ghoirgu y indifferent.
Q. Toek no interest in him whatever? A. Not a bit.
Q. And you say, you never drew a check to his order? A.
Never.
Q Do you remember if you drew a check on the same day he
called on you to anyone's order? A. I might; I sometimes draw
three or four.
Q. It was done in trade, perhaps, if you drew a oheeE? 5 If
I did, it was in trade, perhaps
Q In money you took in for the sale of produce, you banked
every day? A. No; I may be for a week.
Q. When you get large sums of money, you pay it out, do you
give it out; don't you, by checks? A. Ye, sir.
Q. You do not deal by giving out bills? A. No.
Q. Dij you have any talk at all with your nephew abnot going
on the police? A. I did not.
Q. He merely told you, he came down to the surgeons'? A
That he came down to get examined.
Q. Did you ask him to be examined for what? A. He told me
he came down to get examined to go on the police.
Q. Is that all he told you? A. That is all.
Q Did you say to him, "I did not know you were applying for
appointint on the police;" didn't you say that to him? A. No;
I did not
Q. Did you pass any remark at all upon it? A. No remark
that I remember at all upon it
Q. Was it at the dinner table? A. I could not say whether it
was at the dinner table or at the store
Q. Do you know what precinct he is in? A. I do not.
Q. You know nothing at all about it? A No






1032.
Q.. You have never seen h~im. since? TK V~ In tw6 monflis
'.Since the time he told you he was applying for the pollee
d- )a~rtment? A. Yes.
'~. Nor did you hear from him? A.. No; nor didn't hear from
hhi.
Q. Do you swear positively you never gave him any money?
A. Yes; I do, positively.
Q., You never gave any other person any money to give him.?
A. N e v er.
Q. Did you ever give any money to any pers~on with the knowi'.
6dge 'it was to go to him or f or his use? A. Never.
Q. Never a dollar? A. Never.
Q. You are a lucky uncle? A. All the same I give them money
when they want it.
Q.Give who money? A. His mother, or father, when they
rived.
Q. f-i~ father Is dead? Q. He is.
{Q. And his mother is your sister? A. Yes.
Q.He lives with your sister? A. Yes.
0. Did yvou ever give his mother any money? AL. If she cam
to the hou-se and wanted any mo~ney, I gave her $5 or $10.
Q.Did you give her any money in the year? A. I did not;
ibhe was in the house one day, and I made her a present, I think,
of $10.
Q. Is that the last money you ever gave her? -A. That is the
lafzt.
Mr. Goff.-We have had some witnesses subpoenaed, Mr. COhairman, and they have left the court-ixom, I am informed, under
the impression, they would not be called to-day, and others
have disobeyed the subpoenaes, and we have not got a'xy further
evidence to go on this evening.
Senator O'Connor.- Disobeyed -subpoenaes?
31Mr. Goff.- Yes.
Senator O'Connor.- We shall take proceedings against, them.
Mr. Goff —We shall. do so.
*Pi'oeedilngs of the nineteenth meeting of the oommittee In
the city of New York, Monday, June 4, 1894, at 10:30 a. mn.
Present- Senators Lexow, O'Connor, Cantor, Bradley and
Eobertson.
Counsel on both sides present.
Mr. C off.- Is Mr. Swartzenfeld in court?
C hairman Ljexow.- Is Mr. Swartzenfeld in cou-rt? (No repJly,
John Oscar, Kline was also called, but did not appear.


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1033


Timofly Donohue, called as a witness on behalf of the State,
being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Goff:
Q. What is your busines? A. Junk business.
Q. Did you have a son recently arrested on charge of a entme t
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On the complaint of an Italian woman? A. Yes sir.
Q Having stolen some locket? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the officer's name who arrested your son  AM
I don't know his name, sir.
Q. What station-house? A. Fourth.
Q. That is Oak street? A. Yea
Q. Fourth precinct? A. Yes.
Q. Don't you know his name was Oakley or Oakland?T 
Oakley or Aikley; I can't tell you which it is.
Q. It was a name like that  A.I can not aaJ w   t itAs
officer's name.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Do you know hs number? W. No, s!.
Q. Could you identi him if you saw him? 'I A   Yes
By Mr. Gofft
Q. You know you are under oath?  i. Yes; I am under oath,
and I will testify to nothing but the truth; it is a bitter thing to
fetch me right here to-day.
Q. Did you pay any money to any person upon your son's
ati ast? A. I did, to a lawyer; my wife gave it to a lawyer.
Q. Outside of a lawyer, did you pay any money? A No, sir;
I did not.
Q. Was any money asked of you? A. There was non asked of
me; not a solitary cent.
Q. Did you say anything to anytone of any money having been
asked? A No, sir; I did not.
Q. What? A. No, sir; I did not
Q, Not even to your wife? A. I spoke to my wife; tis Italian
woman that got this boy arrested, she said the locket was only
worth $7.50, and she wanted $20 to settle it, and I said I would
not give her 20 rotten buttons to settle it, and I said I would
fight it, too; I seen the officer that arrested my boy, and I said,
Officer, what has my boy donea;" he said, " He has done nothing,
and he ran into my arms, and was accused of taking a locket, and
the Italian woman ran right into the station.
L.       130




Q. Didn't you say sooner than pay the Italian wonman any
money you would pay it to the officer? A. I said I would better
pleased to give it to the officer, if there was anything at all to be
given; yes, I did.
Q. Have you seen that officer since? A. No, sir; I have not
seen the officer since. 
Q. Have you seen the officer since you were subpoenaed here?
A. No, sir.
Q. What were you going to do on your way to the Oak Street
station? A. I told you I was under oath now.
Q. What did you go for? A. I went to see the officer. my
boy was arrested by with some pawn tickets on his person.
Q. After you got the subpoena to come here before the Senate
committee, didn't you go. to the Oak Street station? A. I did
iot.
Q. Weren't you on the way going there? A. I went down to
buy shoes for my wife and two dhildre.;
Q. Weren't you going to the Oak Street police station after you
got the subpoena? A. Not at all.                i
Q. When did you get the subpoena? A. I got it about halfpast seven Saturady evening.
Q. Have you seen anyone since that time? A. No, sir; I have
not seen anyone.'
Q. Or talked to anyone? A. Talked with none.
Q. Where do you live? A. No. 98 Essex street.
Q. you were to the district attorney's office on your son's
trouble, weren't you? A. I was not
Q. Didn't you come down here to the distict attorneys? A.
No; the man that gave that is false.
Q. Didn't you go to the district attorneys office here? A. I
did -not.
Q. Did you go to any court? A. I did not, only to this court
here, and I am thirty years in this city, and don't know-my way
to this court.
Q. Is this the only court you have been in? A. I was right
in the next court in 1868 with my papers.
Q. Were you in any court when your son was in trouble? A. I
was in this court, sir.
Q. In that building? A. Yes.
Q. Didn't you go upstairs where your son was to be tiefd? I
did, sir.
Q. And who went upestars with yor A. My boy.
Q. And who else? A My wife, and a man of the name
O'Hara 




Q Wh16 tse? A. T don't know any person that went up with
me.
Q. Did you see the officer that made the arrest that dayt? A.
I see him right in the court-room.
Q. Did you talk with him? A. I falk with him?
Q. Yes. A. I went right outside.
Q You went outside with him? A. Yes; and I aked the
officerQ Just wait a moment; you went with the offlcer outside In,the hail, didn't you? A. Yea
Q. And you saw the officer in court? A. I saw him in court
sitting down in the court.
Q. And did you ask him to go out in the hall with you? A.,
No, sir.
Q.Diddhe ask you to go out in the hall? A.No, sr; I saw,
the otffier and asked, him It the trial was to come off thsat day;.
he sid, I dxm't know; it might come off this afternoon.
Q. Didn't you tell the officer the Italian woman had applied to.
settle It with you for seven dollars? A. I did not; I said theItalian nodded to me; my wife wanted to know what my boy
was arrested for; my boy was supposed to be arrested for IPs
locket
Q. Didn't you tell the officer that the Italian woman offered to.
settle it for money? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And didn't you tell the officer if you were to pay any mouner
you would sooner give it to him than to give it to the Italias
woman? A. I did, sir.
Q. And after you told the officer that, didn't you slip some
money into his hand? A. I asked the officer to have; a cigar
or drink, and he said no, I-am obliged to you, but I don't drpinkt
or smoke; I am under oath.
Q You have not amswered my question, sir; when you tol the
officer you would sooner give him the money than give it to
the Italian woman so as to help your boy, didn't you slip some
money in the ofler's hand?  A. Itold him it wasfor a drk~c,
when he wouldn't take a oeigam
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Didn't you put money into his hand; dorit yer remern
you put money into thls han&d? A. I nivt a few dlla~r In hatim
hand.
Q. How much? A. Five dollars; that is not rying.P.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Never mind; now, Mr. Donobln, whydIPbx't yo  tell that
-Arst and save. us all this time; are you afraid to tell the tnitht




103W!,. I think it is outrageous to put a citizen on this stand; I have
been 33 years in the city, and never was put in a court before
Q. Are you afraid to answer? A. No sir; I am not.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Why, did you decline to answer, or refuse to state the
fact that is now stated when it was first enquired about; why did
you first state you had not paid any money; were you afraid? A.
No; this officer is a good-hearted man; this officer said-I said
it, and what I have said I have got to stick to it; I said, a Officer,
won't you have a drink? " he said, I don't drink or smoke; " you
told me my boy was arrested for stealing, aind I slipped a $5-note
|i      min the officer's hand, not with the intention of bribing him or anyX~i tthing of that kind.
Chairman Lexow. —We don't care anything about what you
iintended. 
iBy MIr. Goff:
Q. After you did that the oicer closed his h]and on fte bill?
A. I did not see, sir.
Q. You did not get back the bill? A. I didn't want the bill
back anyway. 
Q. Your boy was discharged after that, wasn't he? A. Yes,
my boy was discharged.
Q. Did the otffcer go on the stand and testify in your boy's
case? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And after the officer's testimony was heard, your boy was
discharged? A. It went to the jury, sir.
Q. He was acquitted? A. Yes.
Q. Are you sure it was a $5-bill? A. Yes; I am sure it was a
$5-bill.
Q. How much did you have left on your person? A. I hadn't
a solitary cent on my person lut a $5-note, and I would give It
to you or any other fine man any tinma
Q I am not talking of that; from whom did you get the $5?
A From my wife.
Q. She changed some money, didnt she, that morning? A.
rYes, sir.
Q. And what money did she change? A. I can not tell what
she changed; in the name of God, I can not tell what my wife
would do in the whole day.
Q. You asked Tier for some moaney?  A. No sir; I did  ot;
she gave me the moneyi. -.- 




1037
r ~. WimJf did she give yon the money for? A. She did not
give it to me to bri'b anybody; she gave it to me to go and
get a drink-or smoke-I did uot drink, but smoked.
Q. If you don't drink, why did you require $5 from yox
wife Ihat mornig? A. I wanted a little money in my pocket,
sir; when I am in business I may need it; I was in the junk
business.
Q. You were not going to the junk business, you were going
to court? A. I was going to both.
Q. What did you wane the money for to go to court? A.
I wanted to treat the officer, if he smoked, to a cigar.
Q. You told your wife you wanted the money for that purpose?
A. I did not tell her what I wanted the money for; I told her
to give me a few dollars;
Q. You and your wife had been talking arubt it? A. Not in
court
Q. Not in court, but in your house
Chairman Lexow.-Just answe the questin.
Q. Weren't you and your wife talking about the subjec, 'ti
it would be better to give the officer a litle money than to
give the Italian woman the money? A. I was not in the house.
Q. Did you or yor wife? A. No, sir; I did not; I was
not in the house.
Q Didn't you and your wife talk together that it would be
better to give the money to the officer than to the Italian woman
that claimed the property was stolen frnom her? A. No, sir
Q. Not a word between yourself and your wife? A. No, si.
Q. You wear to thal? A. I am swearing to that, and know
I am under oath; not for the city of *New York would I like to
take the stand.
Chairman Lexow. —Never mind thai   You only make yoar
examination longer by making these explamatiomas
Q. Don't you remember the first day you gave the officer the
money the case was postponed? A. Yes.
Q. When the case came up for trial the next time, did you
give him an  more money, A. No, sir.
Q. Was that all the money you gave him? A. That was all
the money I gave the officer to take a drink, but not with the
intention of giving him a bribe.
Chairman Lexow.-We don't care anything about your inte  -
tions, that you -was prompted by giving your temmy.   Do
not try to exouse yorself, butt give facts
By Mr. Goff:
Q. You are in the junk bnine, and by old by oio   al sora
metal, and thing of that kIn'd? A. Ye, sir.           -




1038


Have you a   Iancd-car and push-cart? A. Yes, ie
Q You go from house o house cooecein   these iMge.L
I d* not, sir.
Q. Do ihe poice ever vifl    m y   yard for Aoea proper t
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you a license? A. I hae, sr.
Q  Did the police ever stop ynm ou the stree t loao tor
y.ur license? A. No sir; for I hre a badge on my brest
Wtih the number on it. When did you get your lieen? A Last May, 1S montha
Q. How long is the tMeIe  good for? A. It espies the last
end of May, of thid mosh,. Did you go to t*e   y Hall yourself for te ticensef A
Q Yourself? A. Y%.Q A    lnd paid your money there? A. Paid my money the
Q You haven't got a license now? A. No; I have not; I
old   a thet I had no Hacense now.
Q. And have you been doing your business? A. Ye.
QO Without a lesee so far? A. WW*lS t a liense se far; yea. And have he pi;ceme asked you anything aibowt whether
ou had a   cenae? A      1b *ir; they bhave not; I am goig to
renew my liense, bWt I habTet got nu     to Mew it
By Senator Briadey:. One qestion; you said t ft the officer told you that he
i       ktber e d nor drank? A. Yes.
Q. What la the idea of givig a $5-bil for getting a drink
after he told yon he did ndt drink? A. Wten I saw di  man
wee right, and told me m, ohdi was nIt gput   a am, bolt
imat way.
By ahrannsn Lexw:
Q. Had you been told before 0o went to the coRt-omm that
day that yo  could use money i that wy? A! o.
Q. Had you any ovesationi with    tt offaer before?  XA
Never in my life, I swear; one evening I came down aad sked
hikn if he was the officer arresed my bby, sK tie told me be was;
amg I, "Did you catch him in the at? 
Q. Did you speak to him about money there  Al,   air; I
did not; tie offeer never asked for mmey.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. How old is your bT. ~Xi.      e. a   be h   bo'
sr AagxMt    i..




1039


By Mr. Gof:
Q. After you gave the officer 5, the officer aiW he -woud dt
what he could for youa  A. No, ir; he did no
Q, Did he say a word at aZ? A. No sir.
Q. Dida't he tell you he would, not be biard on your boy'   A
He said what he said he would stic to; he said he did not cat
my boy in the act ot stealing anything  and I thought ti
officer -- 
Q. e told you he wiuld noZ0  be any harder on the boy than
he could help? A. No
Q. DId he say words like that? A. In te name of God, bl
mentioned no suc thinfg.
Q. Didn't he say he was b a ry for hian? A. He aid the coo
plaint was right- -
Chairman Lexow. —Just answer the question.
Q. Didn't he tell you he was aorry for you? AL No, sr'
Q. Didntt he say he would be aa ed as he coud to yow?:t
Well, certanly he didk. o!ex ainationi by Mr. Niotd:
Q. What was the charge against your boy? A. My boy bekig
drunk, and he was arrested in the street for a little bit of i
locket on this lady's neck.
Q. Vhat was he indicted far? A. I oould not telL.o  I um
in the city for 33 yeara
Chairman Lexow. —Amiwer lthe questio
Q. You don't know wbt thi  e e  agast lim was? r.L Fat
petty larceny, I believe. 
Q. Upon whose complaint was he indicted? A. Thn Italia
woman, that this locket was taken off her neck.
Q. What had the officers testimony to do with the case; dkl
he mak e the arest? A. He aa'ested my boy. 
Q. Did tie officer detect him in doing that alleged crime? AL
No, qir; he did not; he ran into his arms; the boy was drunk.
Q. He had nothidng to do except arrest him for it? A. 
that is all.                             --
Q. Was the warrant agannst your boy issued on the affidavit
the officer r tie affidavit of fie Italian?  A. The affidavit of
the Italian. 
Q. Well, all the teetimrny of thie.officer then was to describe
the oircnmstances -nder which he had made the arrest of the
boy? A. Yesa
Q. And that he had sworn to in the magistra s eort, rax
he? A. Yea
Q. And he repeated that testfmoo before the jy in gewer
seesions? A. Yea....




1040


ChaIrman~ Lexow. — Don't lead thls, Mr. Nioil, that Is a little
too leading.
Mr. Nicoll.- Why shouldn't I lead? Mr,. Goff does nothing
else but lead.
Chairman Lexow.- You are putting a story right into the
witness~s mouth.
Mr. Nicoll.- Haven't I the worst example In the world to do
tiat. 1 have fallen into that fault from listening to the transactons of the conmmilttee.
Chairman Lexow.- They are substantially adverse to the eommittee, and Mr. Goff's examnination is tle ordinary ca'ossexamina'on aid yours is the direct.
Mr. Nicoll.- That is, when A witness comes ria tine band and
aiakes a charge of corruption, wT. position is that X. directexamination.
Chairman Lexow.- This witness does all he -acn ao Jv"r up
a large corruption, and properly then he is a iVitness against
the committee and not for the committee.
Mr. Nicoll.- I,,suppose my position was the position cf cdaunsel
for the deparbtment against which'the coMuittee iv making a
ciharge.
Chairrman Lexow.- Exactly.
Mr. Nicoll.-]I am not examining In chef.
6hairman Lexow.- There Is a clear distinction betwem
ordlnary cases and this case.
Mr. Wicoll.- I appreciate what Is in your mind, but where
tMe witness3 —
Chairman Lexow.-TI am sorry if I cannot express it
Mr. Nicoll.- Yoru are getting me in a very bad hatJI heme
That is all, Mr. Dognohue.
Chairman Lexow.-Is that all of Mr. Donohiue?
Mr. Goff.- Yes. Is Mr. Swatzenfeld In coulrt.?
* ('The wines,% does not answer.)
Avgusta Thurow, called as a witness oii beha  et the Slate,
being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct-examination by Mr. Goff:
Q. What is your full name? A. Augusta Thurowr.
Mr. Goff. — Mr. Chairman, will you plewse inform th1% hMdy of
the protection which the law affords her.
Chairman Lexow.- Any testimony that you may give before
this committee, you are absolutely protected in giving; It ca7nnot be used against you in any other pro-c'-ding, or in any othei~
jurisdiction. The wily protectioia you do not receive is if you




1041
swear falsely. If you swear falsely before this committee it Is
just the same as if you were committing perjury in any court of
law, and the fines and penalties of perjury will be meted out to
you.
Mr. Goff.-I deem this, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the
committee, a proper and suitable occasion to call to the atteation of the committee the very injurious effects that already
have been produced, and which may in all probabiiity be further
produced by reports circulated through the public press that
witnesses who have testified before this committee may be called
upon to verify their charges and to testify before other tribunals,
or before other officials. The result, Mr. Chairman, has been
so far disastrous, and may be disastrous to us. Two witnesses
that we had under subpoena on Saturday have left the State
sooner than come before this committee, and I may give the
words uttered to the subpoena server, that one of them saiid
that if he went on the stand he would never know when to end;
and if witnesses are to be harassed and turned from one court
to another, and from one authority to another whenever they
testify before this committee, such a course will have the efeet
of intimidating any witnesses which come before this committee.
Witnesses ought to -
Senator O'Connor. —Will you suggest some way in which we
can control the papers.
Mr. Goff.-I am not suggesting any way of controlling the
newspapers.
enator O'Connor.-They have given notice that if the witnesses did testify there might be intimidation, and they might
be put under trial, and they would have to put the testimony
of the officers against them. All such publications and threats
have such effect of intimidation; that is the purpose of it.
Mr. Goff.-So far as the newspapers are concerned they are
publishing news; that is their profession. I call the attention
of the chairman to the effect.
Chairman Lexow. ---I understand that it is denied by Mr.
Byrnes.
Mr. Nicoll.- So far as the district attorney's office is concerned
we have nothing to do with that. He has a right to take notice
of any testimony given here, but so far as the police department
is concerned, I was interrogated yesterday by the commissioners
as to whether or not some notice should not be taken by them of
the testimony of one of the witnesses, or two of the witnesses
examined before the committee at this last session. I told them
that I thought some notice ought to be taken, and that some
investigation should be had; but this morning, on conferring with
L.       131




1042


the superintendent I told him - advised him that it would 'not
be proper to have any examination of witnesses while this cWoMmittee was in sesison and going on with this investigation; that
he ought to communicate with Mr. Gulf 'in relation to the matter
and ascertain from him wheluer or not any action on his part
would in any way interfere with his laborious task of getting evideuce for the committee; and that will be the policy of the
department While it is necessary that the heads of the departments should notice matters of that sort any investigation by
them, by my advice would be suspended until such time as Mr.
Goff, acting as counsel for the committee, says that it will not in
any way embarrass him in his labors.
Chairman Lexow.- The proper place to try a ease of that kind
is here, is it not? These charges are made here; the witnesses
are sworn here. Now, if the police deparbtment wants to protect
itself against matters of that kind they will have ain opportunity
here of discussing that question and producing winsses, instead
of allowing it to be insinuated that witnesses going on the
stand here will be harassed and tried before another tribunal.
Mr. Nicoll.-At the samLe time the commissioners can not
ignore anything transpiring before the committee.
Chairman Lexow.-You understand on the other side if ev.
denue is adduced here that seems to reflect on that department
that just as soon as we get that testimony our witnesses am,
harassed.
Mr. Niool.- I said that that wiill not be done until Mr. Goaff
waid it would not in the slightest way embarrass the tetidmony
oi the comnminttee.
Chairman Lexiiw. — AMd then thimuog -the mc-J! m of Mr. GoM
Mr. Nicoll.- ThoMugh Mr. Goff.
Q. Mrs. Thurow, you have heand what the hiounoable Semntor
has said to you about the pmteti-on of the law for any testimnoia
you may give before this committee? A. I have.
Q. You u-nderstand that, don't you? - A. I understand.
Q. And the only thing requiired o you here isto -totel the et trtU
and the whole truth; you uinklerstand? A. I underotan4
'Q. What is your owcmpation? A. Now; dressmaker.
Q. And you have been a dresmaker in the years gone bvl?
AYes
Q. Have you ever seen me, Mrs. Thurow? A. Never.,
Q. Until this mionenti? A. Until when I see yor% coming is
the court-room.
Q. Where do you residde? A. Sity-thwee oaiftfih stee-Li
QIn this city? A.Inllhs city.




1043
(. Tfow ling have you rDsed    if         e1efl        ot
February.               _ 
Q. Of this year? A. Of tis year. 
Q. Where did you reside befor re adr in Fta ourfi beet? 
Ih 28 Second avenue.
Q. Twenty-three Second avenue; where did you go to reside
at 23 Second aveue? A. I left-when did I go-about 9
years ago.
Q. What sort a a boe i t       m Second avemne? Al TM
frst five years I kept it a straight horoe and the last for yeun
it was a house of ill-repute.
Q. Did you rent the whole house? A. I rented the whole house.
Q. So that would be about 1890, four year ago, simee the
house was -  A. About that; I could not say are.
Q. As near as you can recollect? A. Yes; it must have been
six montih before or six months after; but to the best of my
ability I can remeniber that the house was used for immoral
purposea from about four years ago.
Q. Now, after the house was converted into one for immoral
pUrpoaes ddid you have a visit from a poliie officer? A. I did
not have a direct visit; I couvl not get tenants to ooupy thi
rooms, and I took in women tiat said they lived with men that
were their husbands; and certaiidy wfhen I was sewing in the
daytime; I ws then making dremes and sewing with five girlis;
and in the night they would bring men in; one cf the offiers
told me of it, which one I can not recollect, and says -
Q. One of the officers on the beat? A. On the beat; and say
'there will be troble " if I did not stp tht I mld, a^   w
I stop it when I am asleep?" 
Q. That was in t Fe  rt eenth precinct? A That was in the
J     _wt eepe preinct; I have never had a house outside of th
n8rteenth  precinct, only after the raid when Captain Cros
raided me, then I was told to take a place down in Broome
str#c: hMt I wfll tell arbout that afterwardse
Q. liht street and Second avenme, tha is tie statio-house
no,'at the tme you speak of when this officer called upon yo%,
what eartain was in that precinmt? A. McCulloughi,
By Chanrman Lexows
Q What time of the year was that? A. I can not tell the dt,
Q,   Wir' time in 1880? A. I can't tell the date.
Q. About what year? A. About four years ago.
Q. Three or four years ago-about 1890? A. Yea




'104


By Mr. Goff:
Q. Now, you say one of the officers on the beat called upon
you, and what did he say? A. He did not call on me; he met
me; I was on the stoop, or around the house somewheres; he
said, "There are women in the house there, and they are doing
it, and you have got to attend to it;" and I said, "How will I
attend to it;" he said, "I will send Bissart'"
Q. The wardman? A. Yes; "I will send Bissart around, and
you can make arrangements with him;" he came around within a
week after; Bissart came around, and I told him, and he seemed
to be informed before; and he saidQ. Pardon me a moment; did you ever meet Bissart before t
A. Never seen him before he came there.
Q. And when he came into the house, do you remember what
he said? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say? A. He says, "Well, where this house
stands you never can put a church, and you can go on in business,
and I will see you in a month."
Q. What is that? A. He would see me in a month; let the
girls do business for a while, and he will see me in a month;
there would never be a church put where this house is, and that
settled it; he says, " There never will be a church put where this
house is, and you can go on in the business;" he called in a month
after that, and asked me if I could afford to pay anything; I said
I could not afford to pay much, as many of the rooms were
empty, and I gave him $10.
By Chairman Legxow
Q. That ws Bissard you gave $10 to?  I. Yes, Bissard; and
sometimes he called regularly every month, and some times I
gave him $21, $13 and $15, and once I gave him $20, but only
once.
* Q. And you gave him various sums from $10 to $20? A. From
$10 to $20; I only gave him $20 once.
Q. Every month; A. Every month; he called every month;
the lowest I ever gave him was $10, and the next month after that
$12, and then I gave $13, and $15, and once $20.
Q. How long did that continue? A. Until the police were all
shuffled and transferred, and Captain Dougherty came in the
precinct.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Do you remember how long that payment was before tis
shuffle you talk about? A. I could not remember how long.




1045
Q. About how long? A. From the time he came; that was
very often; when Bissard came I did not have any rooms occupied
for such a purpose, and then I told him "I have not got any
money," and he said all right, and you say you can not
Q. Was it a year or two years? A. It must have been two
years; well, I wiTi say I sent him away without money about four
times.
Q. During the whole two years? A. During the whole of
those two years I sent hmh away without money four times.
Q. What was the reason you paid on one occasion $20, on
other occasions more than $10; making up for having months you
had not paid him anything? A. At the time I paid him $20
there were four girls in the house doing business at one time; he
says, "About $5 for every girl you have in the house ia what we
will charge."
Q. That was the tariff? A. Yea
By Mr. Goff:
Q. And the tariff rose according to the number of the girls you
had in the house? A. I never paid more than $20.
Q. Five dollars each girl? A. Yes; there was four girls doing
business there then.
Q Was your husband present at any time when you paid this
money? A. My husband was never present when I gave Bissart
any money.
Q. You gave the money to him in bills? A In bills, or in
silver, or anything; if I gave him bills and silver both, I
wrapped the bills around the silver, so there would be no click;
he cautioned me that way, and I have known Bassart to come
down in the basement when the girls were at the table taking
their dinner; and I went in the hall, and the door was opened,
and he says, "You have not got silver;" and I says, "No;" and
then he took the money; otherwise he would have turned back,
I suppose, and not taken it.
By  hairman Lexow
Q. He did not want the click to be  eard t K. He dit not
want the girls to hear the click.
By Mr. Goff:
Q He preferred the bills?  tA He did not say he preferred
them; I hadn't anything else to give them; he took what I had
Q. He preferred the bills, rather to the silver; is that the fact,
bait he said he did not want the click to be heard? A. He did




104G


not want thie dlick; he sad, "You have not got silver;" and he
iiredme before to pay him in bills if the girls were around,
ashe almrost always came down in the back basement where we
n~ aing our meals; and he said, "Don't let them hear the
click."
Q.After Captain McCullough left that precinct and CaptaIn
Dougherty went -there, did a new wardman call upon you? A.
The new wardmau came around sometimes when I was in front
of the dew~ and talked to me, and asked me if there was anybusiness ben  done in the house, and I~ said no, there was n~o
business doding in the house, because I had an idea I had to. paymoney right down, and I could not afford it;- I hadn't money I
oould afford to pay the initiation fee, which I had heard otherpeople had to pay; and I said, "I am not doing any business, and
when I am doing any business I will let you know."
Q.You had heard from other people in the same line of business that an initiation fee had to be paid, because there was a
new captain came into the district? A. Yes; but he never asked
me for an dnitiation fee.
Q, So you, told the wardmen you bad no money to put down
for initiation? A. I said, II am not doing any business, and
haven't any money, and will see you after some time; it was
about six months I did not see 'him; he came in one day and
said, "1I am godng to raid the house;" I said, "1You must raid it,
then; I can not help it;" and he raided the house before I had
paid one penny.
Q. Do you rem-ember when that raid was?  A. That raid was.,
on the 25th of October.
Q.Do you remember the year? A. Well, the first yearQ.1892 wasn't it? A. It was 1892; it was when: DoughertyWVa there the first year.
Q. How many girls were arrested that raid; do you. 2emember?~~ I think there were seven girls and myself.
Q.And yourself? A. But the grs were not all girls that.
were In the businaes; as I maid I had some people living there
that said 'they were aiefors, and so on, and I never tried to find
out whether they were or not, but they were arrested with,
the rest of us.
Q. And all taken down to the station-house? A, Yes.
Q. And were you bailed out that nigh't? A. I was bailed ouL..
Q.Who bailed you oust! A. The saloon keeper next door.
Q~ Were the ghils bailed out? A. No; the girls, I don't
think-no; the girls were not baled out at that time, I thinkQ~Will Captain Cross produce the bliotters of October, 1892,
If you1 please; while they are getting the books, do you remnem:ber.



1047


the name of the detective that came to you when Captain
Dougherty went into the precinct? A. Barney Neeha.
Q. Now, you were brought before the police court, were you?
A. Yes, siA.
Q. That is -at Essex Market? A. At Essex Market.
Q. And were you fined at Essex Market? A. I was put undier
bonds.
Q, What was done with the girls? A. The girls, I tihlnk.
were discharged-no; the girls each paid $10.
Q. Ten dollars fine? A.. Yea
Q. And what officer tetifed against you at Essex Market? A.
It was Meehan.
Q.And was ftee an offlcer there by -the name of Myers? A.
Maney Mleyers.
Q. And they were the ones that testified you kept a disorderly
house? A. What they testified I did not! hear.
Q. They appeared before a judge? A. They appeared before a
judge against me.
Q. And aftter their testimony your girls were Ifined $10 eac?
A. Ten dollars eacli.
Q And you were -put under bond? A. Five hundred dollars
bonds.
Q. Five hundred dollar bond? A. No; $300 bond.
Q To answer at Special Sessions? A. Yes&
Q. At Special Sessions were you brought to trial afterwards,
before the three judges down at the Tombe police mourti? A.
Before three judges.
By Chairman Lexiow:
Q Were you brought to trial? AT Barney Mfeeliai said It was
best for nie to plead, guilty, and make a long story short
Q. You Qppeared before the bthee judges? A. Yes; I badndt
a word to my; the lawyer plead guilty.
Q. The lawyer you empployed? A. The lawyer sarys, she pleads
guilty.
Q What lawyer did you have? A. Mr. Osbbornel
Q, Did you employ him yourself? A. Yes.
Q. Did anyone tell you to employ him? A. He was there in
court
Q. In the Essex Market court? A. In the Essex MVarket and hb
came up to me, and asked me if I had engaged 0oausel, and I
told him no, and -he said he wouid take the case.
Q. How much were you fined at'Specia Sessifkn? A. Twentyfrye dollars
Q. After you were fined at Special Sessions you returned to
your house in Second avenue; did you open up again? A. Yes.




,1048


Q. How soon after? A. W"Ieil, Coming out of the Special Session
~ae and miy husband went out first, and we were standing at tue
Lkottom of the stairway, and Barney MeehIan came down stauirs,
and I said, well, 1 have to stop business now and remove from the
neighbo~rhood without doing business; he said, " Go a&ad gee the
old man.;" I said, "1I am -not acquainted with tile captain; " I
said, "1Can't you fix it for me? " h-e said, "1No; you go and speak
bo him.;" I weata to the captain and spoke to him.
Q.At ike staitiou-hou~se? A. Yes.
Q~What captain? A. Captain Dougherty; and I went there
Mwice and could not isee him, and I asked the sergeant at the
desk whether the captain was in, and he said no, the eaptiaiu
is toos busy wi-th the election; you will have to come to-night; I
said I must see him on busdness, and I went there again and
found thle cuptain in, and spoke to, him and told him I was will-,
ing to do the Agiglit thingr and had, not amuk monay, and could
aot pay any big sum, and he said I will send the wardna
around and you do as he tells you..
Q.Yes; did you go to your house? A. I went back to my
hoidse; it was shortly biefore -electioin; Mr. Meehan came around
Q. Now. just let me bring you back to Special Sessions; do you
remember le-ehan's saying anything to you at Special Sessions
azout your gettinRg -off lighitly? A. BareyMeehan?
QYes? A.. No; he did not &~y that; hbit the lawyer told me
Q~It wasi the lawyer told you you got, off 11-Ili~v? A. Ye, —.
Q.Go back again to where Baxney Meehan visited you after
vou had seen the caiptain? A. The election procession was pass.
ingo, and Barney Nkeehain came along the sidewalk, and I said, have
yoo any mnessage fromi the captain to me; he says, ccYes; you
wait until after election, and after election is over you start
V1g, at ii and do buinss; that -was only a few days bef~ore
elseto  then.
Q. Let me see; wxhen you called to the captain's station houlse,
did he invite you into his private room? A. The first twi; times
hie was not there, I only see the sergeant..Q Wlhen yoru saw him #i~e third time? A. The second time
lie opecned the door, and said, come rig'ht in.
Q That was in his private room? A. That was into his private
Q.Did you say to Wilm then yolu would likie lo ~o, busines s wi1t h
him, as you have dcne befo-re? A. Yes, sir; I said T had not
ranch imxney to pay down, buat I wilil do the right thing, accordigto the businesm I done; I gave him to understand I hadnt
aWYlxMony toPay nlghtdorwfl; hedi~d not answeras totha t, and he.ald h~e would send, his w ardman..




1049
Q. Did you mention to him the name of the wardman yon hlid
done business with before? A. I did.
Q. That is Bissart? A. Bissart.
Q. You told him you had done business with Bissart beforef
A. Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did he answer anything to that? A. I told him I did business with Bissart and got on very nice; he said I have no doubt
you will get on with Meehan; he is a nlie fellow.
Q. I have no doubt you will get on with Meehan, he Is a nice
fellow? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you say what percentage, or what per capita you paid,
how mulch you paid, by the head, for the women you had there?
A. No; I did not say anything of that kind to him; I do not remember telling the captain anything about that, because I thought
I would see what he was going to charge me; I did not mention
any amount; I did not say I would give him once $20 and once $12.
Q. Did you say anything about having given so much per
woman? A. No; I did not say anything of that kind to the captain.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Now, we come to tthe point where Barney Meehan called
upon you? A. Yes
Q. When this political procession was passing?. AAter
election day he came around; he came right into the hall, and
he says, "Now we will come to terms;" he said it right in the
ball of the house.
Q. He said, "Now we will come to terms?" A. Yes; he said
you give me $25 a month and there will be no trouble either for
me or for you, ejnf thing to that effect; he made it very light and
friendly, and, as I had a little money with me, I gave him the
money.
Q. You gave him the $26 then? A. I gave him the $25, and I
had no more trouble, not. as long as Baimey Meehan was tlere,
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did you give $25 every month? A. Well, Barney Meehan
was not there very long.
Q. How long was he there? A. I gave him $25 in November,
and gave him $25 in December, and the 6th of January he was
transferred.
L.       132




tW50. H e was transferred?. Yes; I only gave -Barneyi ee'ian
$2P two months, twice.
Q. Did he tell you first he would call about the tenth of every
month? A. He said about the tenth of every month; he used
to come around that neighborhood the fifth of every month, he
told me; I said I won't be ready the first of every month, as the
first is rent day, but will be ready about the tenth; I only get
money as I make it; and then he called on me every tenth.
Q. After Meehan was transferred the 6th of January, were
you visited by another man? A. I was down in the basement
about 7 o'clock, and there was a man came in the hall, and
one of the girls called down, "Mrs. Thurow, are you there?"
she says, "There is a man wants to see you;" I says, "Let the
man come down stairs;" so there was a big, tall man oame -he
had a light-I don't know whether he was very blonde, or
whether he had gray hair, I couldn't tell that; he opened a little
paper, and he says, "You are Mrs. Thurow," and I said, " Yes."
Q. Opened a little paper? A A little package of papers,
folded over like this (indicating), and he went over them like that
(indicating).
Q. Went over the leaves? A. Yes; and he says,'"You are Ms.
Thurow? " and I says, " Yes;" " 23 Second avenue? " I says " Yea."
"You come down to the captain's, he wants to see you;" I don't
know'what was the matter; I sent out after the husband and
found him, and said the captain sent for me; I wonder if there is
any trouble; I was not living in the house, but lived in the flat in
Twenty-third street; and took $25 with me, and when I got to the
stationhouse there was several other ladies waiting and two gentlemen waiting; the gentlemen went in first, and I -
Q. Let me ask -stop right here; did you know any of those
ladies? A. I didn't know only one.
Q. Was she a keeper of a house similar to yours? A. She was
living at 18 First street, and the landlady of that place was very
ill, and she took the place of housekeeper during the time that
the landlady was sick.
Q. But she kept a house? A. She was doing the landladya
work, while the landlady was ill.
QO She represented the same kind of house? AL I thought
she was there for the same purose, Iwas told.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Did she keep the same kind of hoae as yoAiself? [ YWe
oer'ainy.




By Mr. Goff:
Q. Did you know any of the men you saw there? AL I did SW
know anybody.
Q. Will you go on and state — when you went there you saw a
number of ladies and two men? A. The-two men went in tif
see the captain first; I took a seat near the door, and got ia
right after the men, and I says, " Captan, dd you send for me?4
he said, "Yeas, 
Q. Was there anybody in the room with yot? A. The cap
tain was all alone. 
By Senator Bradley:
Q. Captain who? A. Captan Dooharty; the captain told me
he had ordes fromn the oentral offiae to clo  a  te all houses In;
the precinct, and for me to keep on doing business very oaa
fully, and not let any lady friends in, and not take money mysel
and if I took money, I might get in trouble, and they might raid
me from  the central office; I said, UI supposed you wanted
money;" "I am not supposed to take money," he said, "but yo
can give the money;" he put out his hand and took out an
envelope, and said, "put down the word Hoch;" I promptl;
took my pencil, and put down "Hoch," and put the money in it,
and the captain put it back in the pigeon hole, with the twenty
five dollars I gave him.
By Chairman Lexow.
Q. How many of these little slips d  thia warzifan haie,
when he came around to see you? A. I don't know; there was
quite a number.
Q. How many would you say to yor best estimate? A. It
was in the hall, and there was no light in the hall of tie basement; the papers were something like you would seee the papers
put together, small papers like in a butcher store, like the bills.
Q. Like a file of bills? A. They weren't any larger than half
of this (infdiating the cover of an ordinary court Bible).
Q. About square? A. Yes; and they seemed to be fastened
at one end, and they looked like this, and opened them, and
said, "Youa are Mr. Thurow, 23 Second avenue; I said "Yesa
Q. Did he appear to be looking over names when he took each
one of these slips out? A. He did not seem to try to read the
names like that; he did rot appear to read those slips, he said,
"You are Mrs. Thurow, 23 Second avenue;" I don't think he had
much of a chance to read it; he could not have read anything.
Q. Did anycne of thoseS slips ap;par to contain the names of
person? A. I did not see them.




By. Mr. Goff:'
Q lid the captain tell you A this interview, he had with you,
that you have told the enatows of, that if you took money, or
kept open, that some central vffice mai might be around? A.
He aa~ya "I have oxrders frouA the central office to ckel every
house in the precinot; now, if you tak-e money, they might send
some one fmn  the central oldce, and if:you took money, they
wiould "aye you, and they might raid you fiora the -central office
Q. Did you know who John Hoch was, whos~ name he put on
the envelope? A. I did not know at the time; I heard of John
Hoch as being the policeman in the Bowery; I did ivt know he
was a winadman; the next morning it was in the p~aper that
John Hoch was Uie waxdman.
Q3 Was he wardman there in place of Barney Meehan? A.
Yes; he was made wardinan in place of Barney Meehan.
Q. INow, ater you left the captain's oftice-and by the way,
did he seal this envelope? A. No; he did not close it; he left the
envelope open, andp pt It in the pigcoa hole.
Q. DMid he write the name &~ John iooJb, or you write the
name? A. I wrote the name.
Q Did he tell you what to write? A. He says   "Pu1ta down
Hoich."
Q. Did he tell you hfis Ohristaiin name? A. No; he said only,
put down Ho-eh; I speled it in German, 1-o-oIl.
Q. Did he hand you a pencil? A. Out of his vest pocket.
Q. And did you place the envelope upon the desk before him
wbhiik, you wrote? A. Put it right in front of him.
Q. Were the bille in the envelope when you wrote the name
on it, or did you wrte the name on before the police went in?
A. I put the name on first, and then put the bills in; the bills were
lying on the desk, whUirle I was writing the name.
Q. Then you took up the bills and put them in the envelope?
A. Yes; I don't know whether I handed it to him in his hand,
or put lit on the desk; anyhow, he took the envelope and put it
in one of the pigeon holes.
Q. Did he say anything further to you? A. He only told me
to be careful and not take any money from anybody that comes
In, or else they would have me from the cential office.
*By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Werie there apod other envelopes In the same pigeon ble?
A. There was a lot of empty envelopes, but I did not see any
with money in them; I did not see any That looked as if they had
anything inside of them; I did not see anything; but he put ft
back from where he got it.




16a
By Seator Bradley:
Q, Was it a prited eavelope? Ak NaeFt wn a plan enveloe.
By Mr. Gofft
Q. You returned to your home and kept quiet, as the captain
told you? A. Until he was on tril before the commissoners,
a day or two afterwards, I do not know how soon; and I watched
the papers, and I read in the papers the trial was over, a-nd I
opened my house again, and went on as usual, and nobody
interfered with me.
Q. From the time you saw te aapt'is in the sttloa-house,
mtil you opened your house again, were you visited by any offiA r
r meassenger? A. I was visited by nbody.
Q. No one visited you, but when you saw his trial was over,
you opened up? A. I opened up.
Q. After you opened up, were you visited by any one? A. I
was not well one day, and I went over to the flat and stayed
there all day.
Q. Over where? A. Over to my flat, and stayed there all day,
because I was not feeling well; and when I went over, it must
have been half-past 11 or 12 -it might have been even after
12 —the girl said to me: "Say, there was a big stout man in
here, and I think he was from the station-house," and I commenced to think, and there it was about the date that I had
said That I wooM see the wardman every time; thtnQ That is about the 10th of the month? A. Yes; and then
there was one girl that knew Mr. Hoch personally, and she
called me in the corner, and she says, "Mrs. Thurow, you need
not worry; it is Mr. Hoch; I suppose he wanted to see you," she
says; when I went over, I says to my husband, when we were
in the home, I says, " There was somebody there from the stationhouse; I guess the best thing for me to do is to go down and
see who it was, because Hoch, the one that this girl described,
is the waidtman now; but I guess I wll settle it and go down;"
I went down the next evening then and asked for the captain,
and went into his room, and I said, "Captain, did you send Mr.
Hoch?" He said, "I could not send anybody else;" I says,
"Then he wanted money," and while saying that I opened my
pocketbook and laid down the $25; he handed me an envelope
again; this time I can not really say whether he put down the
name Hoch, or I did not put down the name of Hoch at all;
J am not sure of it; I am sure he handed me an envelope, and I
put in the money, and he put it back the same as the month
before in the pigeon hole; I am not sure that I wrote down the
name Hoch, as I don't remember him giving me a pencil.




1054


Q. When you visited him this time, did you say to him you
had brought the money with you? A. I said to the captain,
"Did you send Mr. Hich?" And he said, "I can not send anybody else," and I said, "I have got my money with me," and
then he put down the envelope.
Q. Now, do you remember what month that was in? A. Well,
I went to the station-house the sixth of January; that was a
month afterwards; that was in January.
Q. That was in February, 1893? A. Yea
Q After that you continued to do business? A. To do business right straight along.
Q And were you visited the next month by any one? A. I
was not visited; Mr. Hoch sent in a little boy for Mrs. Thurow
to come out, or the landlady of the house, and he was standing
in a dark plaoe there by John Luhr's grocery store; then I
passed, and while passing, I handed him the money, and went
home again.
Q. Did any words pass between you?   A. He says, "How
muoh is that?" I says, "$25 for the captain and $5 for yoe"
Q Twenty-five dollars for the captain and $5 for you? AX
Q. So you handed him $30? A. Thirty dollar.
Q. Were the bills all together? A. They were bills.
Q. All rolled up in one pile? A. They were rolled up.
Q. Did he say anything when you told him? A. He said
'othing; he went right away.
Q. You continued to do business? A I continued to do business: yes, sir.
Q Now, did Hoch visit your house after? A. He never was
in my house after that; only once, on one occasion, and I will
tell that later on, when I had some trouble.
Q. Did Hoch tell you anything about the captain refusing
to stand for your joint? A. He would not stand for the notoriety
of that joint for the price I was paying, and after that he said he
would pull the ranch, and so on; and then I said I would give
rim $10 for himself next month, and I gave him $10 dollars for
himself once, and I could not afford to be paying like that;
I gave him $10 after that for himself, and the next time I paid
him I gave him the roll of money, and I said, "Five dollars," and
he said, "Didn't you promise to give me $10;" and I said, "I
can not afford to pay as much as other people around here; look
what they are doing in First street; I had a quiet business; there
b nobody there gets robbed in my house, and nobody ever gets
treated bad, and for that reason I can not pay as much as other
people;" he did not answer on that, and went away, and the next




1055


day he passed the house, and the girls were soliciting from the
stoop, and he said to the girls, "I want you to tell the landlady I
must see her; now, the captain says you have got to close that
house right straight up; he is not going to stand for his house any
longer;" I then thought to myself, because I am not doing as they
do in First street, I am not doing that sort of business that is bappening in First street, and I thought that must have got the captain very angry that I mentioned such a thing, and I went to
Roesch.
Q. Before you come to that point, did Hoch say how much it
was worth to protect such a house? A. And a ranch like that
iS worth $60 to $75 a month, and here you are only paying $25,
and give me only $s5;" he said, "And you promised me $10, and
only giving me $5;" I said, " Hoch, I can not afford it"
Q What did he say when you said you could not afford it?
CL He says, "You have got the house, and why don't you make
money? it is your own fault, and that house is situated in the
right spot, and you can do all the business you want and we
won't interefer with you, but you must do better than this."
Q. Did he make any threats then to pull you, if you did not
pay a higher rate? A. He said, certainly, if I. could not do better
than that, he would raid the house.
Q. After he said he would raid the house, you went in and
talked with your husband? A. I went in and told my husband;
I sent out for my husband, and says to him, "See here, Hoch
says we positively -
Mr. NicolL-Shal we take the conversation of the husband?
Mr. Goff. —I think we had better take this narrative.
Chairman Lexow.- Subject to a motion to strike out
The Witness.- I sent to my husband and said, "Now, you go
up and see Roesc to the club-room.
Q. Who is Roesch? A. Well, the judge in the Fourth District
Court; he was not judge then, he was Senator then.
Q. Andd he is judge in the Fourth dtriet now? A. Yes, air,
he has been elected since.
Q. Do you know - did he, occupy any other position but being
a Senator?  A. No; not that I know of; my husband got
acquainted with him in the club-room; my husband belonged to
the dub.
Mr. Nicoll.- Will your honors permit this; a judge of this city
and a former Senator to be attacked by hearsay evidence?
Mr. Goff.-It will not be hearsay, at all. We have a right to
know if this witness sent anyone to have an interview with. Mr.
Roeeh.
Chairman Lexow. — hat is all right, if it is limited to that
There ias no objection to that, Mr. Niooll, that we cn see




1056


Mr. Nicoll.-I think any conversation she had with her husband
it immaterial.
Chairman Lexow.-It may be so. I do not say that it is.
By Mr. Gof.
Q. Did you know of Mr. Roesch being a political leader in that
district?
Senator Cantor.- How is that material? He was a Senator of
the district.
Mr. Goff.-He was not a Senator of the district Hle was a
Senator.
The Witness.- He was a leader of the Seventh Assembly district at the time.
Mr. Goff.- The mere fact that a man holds the mere position
of a Senator is no warrant for a woman of this kind to send a
person to fix it I want her to testify when she sent to him; to
give the fact
Senator Cantor.- She says he was a Senator.
Senator O'Connor.- She says he was a leader,
The Witness.- He belonged to the same club with my husband
By Mr. Goff:
Q. What club was that? A. The-I don't know what they
called it; it was a political club for Tammany Hall; my husband
has theQ. What is the name of that club; the Oriental (speaking to
Mr. Thurow).
Mrs Thurow. —He does not understand English enough.
Mr. Goff.-We will get the name of the club.
The Witness.- It is the Tammany club, 94 Second. avenue.. You knew that your husband belonged to the club of which
Senator Roesch was a member? A. He was the leader of the district there.
Q. Did you give your husband any instructions to go and see
Senator Roesch? A. I told him to see Senator Roesch and tell
him what Hoch had told me, and ask him if he could do anything
for us, because I could not afford to close up the house, and I did
not think it would be fair for him to cose me up and let all the
other ones run, and Senator Roesch says to my husband -
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Don't say anything about that; we don't want, Mrs. Thurow,
anything that your husband said as to what Senator Roesch said,
unless you were present  A. Well, Senator Eoesch said for me
to ccne down to his office.




1057
Q. We will come to that in a moment; after you sent your husbiand-I want to state that I 'will be careful and scrupulous
that no man't name be dragged into this unwarrantably; when it
comes in the narrative, I will try, to observe the strict rules of
evidence; if we take it in relation that her husband was acting as
her agent, it would become admissible in a court. of law under
strict rules of evidence here; after your husband left you, did he
return -?  A. To the house?. After he left you to go to this club? A. Ye s. 
Q. He returned to your house? A. Yes
Q. You had a conversation vTth him there? A. Yes.
Q. I do not want you to state what that conversation was, but 1
want you to tell the Senators, after you had the conversation with
your husband, and in pursuance of that conversation, did you go
to any place? A. I went down to Roesch's office, Chambers
street, Stewart building.
Q. And was it from directions that your husband gave yora tht
you went to Mr. Roeschs office in Chambers street? A. I went
down there with m&y husband; he told me Roesch wanted to see
me there.
Q. Was that the next day; how soon after, as near as yoA ean
remember? A. I went the next day and waited in Roesh's office
all the morning, until 6, and he did not call.
Q. Mr. Roesch's office is in the Stewart building? A. tewart
building, on Broadway and Chambers street
Q. You say you went around with your husband and waited in
Mr. Roesch's office A. He did not come that day; we went the
next day and waited again, and we waited again; and I then
wrote him a letter telling him I had been there two days, and
waiting for him, and did not want to go down and stay there
again, unless he would see me; I wrote that during the day, and
sent my husband in the club room in the evening to get the
answer on what he had to say on that letter; he says, "You be
down there with your wife to-morrow, and I will surely see her."
Q. That was the message your husband brought back to you?
Ai Yes, after my writing the letter; I sent him there to see
whether Mr. Roesch would see me; I went down there the next
day and Roesch was there; it was Saturday.
Q. Was your husband with you? A. My husband was with
me; and I told Ioesch; he said, "I will fix that"
Q. Just tell the Senators what you said to Mr. Roesch? A. I
told Roesgh I never could give Hoch money enough; he says,
"What did you give Hoch;" I gave him $25 for the captain,
and gave him $5, and he wanted $10 for himself, and he does
not seem to be satisfied now; and I told Roesch I was doing a
IL       133




1058


quilet business, and there was nothing ever happens in my
house, and I can not pay as much as Hoch is asking for; but I
did not mention the amount that Hoch did ask for, only I told
hin I did not give Hoch enough to satisfy him; so Mr. Roesch
said, I will go and see somebody and fix that thing up for you;
it will cost you $100 or $150; I said, well, then fix it up as soon
as you can, and me and my husband went home; and en the way
I said, "That is an awful tony price for me to raise, $150; I
will go and get $100, and you give $10G, and tell him in a couple
of weeks you will let him have the $50; " so I got the money and
had it home in the house with me; my husband was not there in
time to go to the club, when there was a man came in and says,
Is Ernst Thurow here?"
Q. A man came into your house? A. Into my house; I don't
know where the girls were; I found him on the ground floor in
the back room, asking for Ernst Thurow- that is my husband's
name -I went in and said, "I suppose Mr. Roesch sent you;"
"Yes," he said, "Mr. Roesch wants Mr. Thurow to come up to
the club room; he wants to see him."
Q. Did you inquire his name? A. I did not. 
Q. Did you ever afterward find out his name? A. I found out
after my husband came back from the club room, I found out who
he was.
Q. Go on? A. Then I called my husband, and I says to my
husband right in front of the man and two girls that had run
into the room to see what was the matter, I said, I suppose
Blesch is after the money, are you ready to go to the club house,
and he said, "Yes," and I went outside, and got the money, and
came back into the room, and handed the $100 to my husband.
and this man seen it, and the two girls.
Q. What was this man's name? A. When my husband got
back, I asked him who is that man that came after you; he says,
it is Secretary John Faye; that is what my husband told me.
Q. Secretary of the club? A. Of the club-John Faye.
Q. Now, when you said that you would send up the hundred
dollars to Mr. Roesch to the club room, where had you the
money? A. I had the money-where did I get it from in the
evening?
Q. No; where was it; was it in a trunk? AL It was on my
person.
Q. In bills? A. In bills, where I had it put, I could not take
it out in front of the man, and I went out in the hall and got the
money from where I had it.
Q. That is, you did not like to take it from where you had the
money in the presence of Mr. Faye? A. Yes; and so I went out




1059
In the hall, and got it there, and went back and gave it to my
husband in front of this man and two girls.
Q. Had you this hundred dollars in one roll? A. In one roll.
Q. Had you that prepared to send up to the club house? A.
I had that prepared, and had it with me.
Q. Had it with you to send up to the clubhouse? A. Yea
Q. Did your husband go.with the amount? A. My husband
went away with the amount, and when he came back he told me
he gave the moneyMr. Nicoll.- I object to that
The chairman.- That is excIuded.
Mr. Goff. —I think it would be perfectly competent, but under
the circumstances, I will not press it
Chairman Lexow.-I do not think that would be fair  You
oan prove it by the parties who made the transfer.
Q. Well, now, after this transaction that you speak of, did you
continue to do business? A. Yes, after the money was paid, we
did business right away the same night; yes
Q. Continued and opened up business the same night? A. Yeis
sir.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Were you interfered with? A. Not after that; for a while.
Q. How long? A. It was only a very short time; I think the
first time when, Hoch came, after that, I gave him $25 and nothing
for himself.
Q. That is after you paid -  A. After I gave the -
Q. Take your time? A. I gave my husband the $100 to take
away; Hoch camae after that.
Q. Was it a month afterwards? A. No; it was not a month; it
was not more than a week, or something like that; and Hocih
came, and I gave him money; only gave him $25, and gave him
nothing for himself, and ke didn't ask, either; he did not ask how
much it was, as he usually did, but just took the money and went;
that was about the time the captain went to Europe. 
By Mr. Goffl;
Q. Captain Docharty?. X. Captain Docharty went to Europe;
I think it was a few days before Captain Docharty went to
Europe, and he came around and said, "Now, as the captain is
going to Europe, and the acting captain won't stand for this
notoriety here, he will pull the house;" I says, "All right, if you
pull the house you will pull it, that settles it; " I was so used to
hearing him coming and saying he would pull the house, at last I
did not mind it anymore when he said it, and we kept on business
anyhow, and one day I was lying on the sofa in the back-room






1060
when Sergeant Clark came steering in the.'oIm, aud holding hMm.
self on the door like that, and used the roughest language.
Q. St-ate what language he used? A. I could not say it
Q. Is it because the language is so bad that you can not say it?
A. Well, he -
Q. We would like to have his words, Mrs. Thurow, and you will
please give them to us, as nearly as you can recollect? A. He
could not stand; he had to hold himself.
Q. Was he drunk? A.. Yes; amnd he says, "I want you to keep
those bitches off the stoop or eke I will pull the house; I a~m the
captain of the precinct now, and worn't stand to, it;"1 and he
kept on scolding; and then they axrested two girls off the stoop,
and I had to take them out
By Chairman Lexow
Q. Had o, haIl them out? A. I had to ball ihemt out
By Mr. Golf:
Q.GCan you give us the date otthe arrest?  A. It ought tobie
down in the station-house, when I took the two girls out; it was
of a Friday night, and on Saturday the girls were arrested
Q. Cain you tell us the month? A. It was when -the captain had
newly gone, to Europe.
Q. Was it in -the summer? A. It was in the summer; yes.
Q. Could you state about the month, as near as you can recollect; was it July? A. I don't know.
Q. Or August; well, it was warm weather, anyway? A. It was
very warm weather.
Q. Well, no~w, when you went to the station-house this Friday
night? A. I d'id not go Friday nigh-t; the girls were arrested
Saturday; it was Friday nigiht Bloch was standing in the back
door of the parlor.
Q. Were the girls arrested Friday night? A. Saturday night;
it was too late to arrest any girls then.; it was nearly 12 o'clock.
Q. Was this just before or after Captain Dodharty sailed for
Europe,' do you know? A. Captain Do-charty was away, and
Sergeant Clark was Ithe acting captain. 
Mr. Golf.- Captain Cross, could you direct us as to, the time
Captain Dotcharty was in Europ-e?
Captain Cross.- I can, not
Mr. G-off.-.Are -any of your offiers here?Captain Gross.- I think not. I don't know what thn he left.
Mr. Goff.- Do you know the year, captain?
Captain Croms- No; I d~o not know.
By Mr. Goff.
QThoat was 1893; a~ year ago, wasn't it; that Vw- laid snmei'?
ILYea




1061


I


fr. Gff-INow, captdf n, will you please give us your boter
for the month of July and August, 1893.
Captain Cross.- All right, sir.
Q. Let me ask you, Mms9 Thurow, do you remember if, when you
were first arres~ted in 1892, the first time, did you give another
name? A. Yes, sir; I gave the name of Mary Malter, because I
did not want my name in the -papers.
Q. Is that tle name that you gave, Mr Tmro'w (Sh owing wit-:ess police blotter)? A. That is Heiler t~lere, but I always said
Helter.
Q. That stavds for you any way? A. I ouly used that name.
w, hen I was raided.
Q. The tilie dorwn here is 50 minutes past 10 X c&&wk at night;
ithat is nemarly eleven; is that right; do you remember tbat  the
first day? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nicoll.- Did it correspond with.the n-um i ber of the house?
Mr. Goff.- No, it is a mistake, 31 Second avenue. But there Is
one n-umber below It, that shows there was a mistake in putling
down the number.
Q. Who went bail- Solomon Harcowitz? K      Went b-al?
Q. Yes, A. No; the saloonman, next to the station-hoase; I
don't know whaft his -name is; not Harcowitz.
Mr. Golf.- Oh, yes. Not Harcowift; that Is the eompliiimt;
that is the whole entry. (Shuwing book to Mke icxmttee,)
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Were these girls in your Ihuse, )LWry ~i 
Harbro? A. Minnie Harbro?
Q. Rosie Woods? A. Yes.
Q. Hattie Hogan? A. Yes.
Q. Nellie Sanders? A. Yes,
Chairman Lexow.- Read it off to he 1nstig~ipe   tfe~ sa'
take the record as it stands.
Mr. Go~ff — " Tuesday, October 25, 1892 "- Mr. IMaas, w-l yqu
oblige me with this, just read that record.
Mr. Moss.-" 10:50, Mary Heller, aged 43; color, w.; nation,
German. Housekeeper, mawrried, reads and writes,  yes; 31
Second avenue, keeping disorderly house. Lillie Saunders, -7ged
23, wfiite, German, housekeepr, married, read and write, yes; 23
Second avenue, disordemrly person. Mary- Shlessinger, aged
85, color, white; German,; calling, none; married; read and write,
yea, 23 Second avenue; disorderly person. Mfinnie Heelwitch,
aged 27, white, German; calling, none; single; read and wri t e,
yes; 23 Second avenue; disorderly person. Rosa West, aged 27;
white; German~; calling, none; 'single; read and write, yes; 23
Seccnd avenue; disorderly person. Hattie Hogan, aged 29; wbite;
AustJlian; calling,. none; single; read and write, yes; 23 Second




1062


avenue; 'disorderly person; arrested on a warrant issued by
Justice Duffy, Third District polioe court, October 26, 1892,
charged with keeping a house of assignation, at N,.o. 23 Second
avenue," having name of complainant in each case, ",Kolomian
Halkorvies, 26 Avenue A; Officers Meehan and M-eyer." Entry
'Opposite Mary Heller is "Fined $245, S. S. -Smith, November 2,
* 1892, $300, to answer, Duffy, bail $500, Joseph Espenscl~eid, 77
First avenue, surety." Entry opposite each of the other names,
"Fined $10, sent to Thirteenth precinct., except Katie Hoban."
The entry Is,"1 $5 fine.
By Mr. Goff.
Q.That was the elder McOul~omgh? A~. Yes.
Q. As a matter of justice, Mr. Chafiman, to everyone oonterned,
whose name may be mentioned in this investigation, I wouldd
like to ask Mrs. Thurow now, if the (0aptain Mc~ullough that slie
i'eerred to in her testimony is the elder Captain Mc~ullough;
we have two Captain MeOuflouglis; was it the old Capjai-u
McCullough? A. It was the Capitain McCullough that the wardwain was with; I liever see Captain 'McCullough myself.
Q. You have heard that Captain McCullough is dead? A. I
heawd that the captain was d-ead that used to be at Fifth street
in Bissart's time.
Senator Cantor.- I suppose the police record will show which
Captan McCullough it was any way.
Mr. Goff.- Yes; but I thought it best to have it appear on the
record.
Q. In regard to that appearig on the record on thie police
blotter; it appears your name is at 31 Second avenuie, and the
names of your girls, Lillie Sanders, and Mary Schlessinger and
Minnie Helwich, and Rosa West, and Hattie Hoban, were given
at 23 Second avenue; will you please tell how 31 Second avenue
comes to be placed opposite your name? A. I lived at 31 Second1
avenue at the time I was raided.
Q. And the house you kept was at 23? A. At 23 Second
a-ve-nue; and in December, I moved to 21 First street.
Q. Now, we have come to the point of the occasion when you
went, to the statio-n-house on Saturday -night; two of your girls
were arrested; now, who did you see at the station-h-ouse? A.
S~ergeant Clark was at the desk.
Q. Were tlhe girls that were axrested then two of the 'oines that
had been arrested before on the first raid in 1892? A. Sergeant
Clark was not at the desk; th~ere was another sergeant; I do not
remember his name.
Q.. Do you remember the namue of the girls?  A. I do not
remnember that




1Si,?. Those two girls? ~I. No.
Q. Did you go into the station-house with them, when they
were arrested? A. Oh, no; they were arrested, and then one of
the officers that arrested the girls came back and said to me the
girls say to me that you should come down and take them out
on bond.                  l
Q. It will appear from the-so as to get the names correct
from the police blotter that day, Saturday, August 12th, 1892,
Sergeant George C. Liebers was on duty; do you remember the
names of -  girls? A. I don't remember.
Q. If I read them from the police blotter would you recognize
them? A. Maybe I would.
Q. There is one here, Rachael Marks, 23 Second avenue; do you
remember that name? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There is another, Lottie Raynor? A. Lottie Raynors; yes, I.
can remember those two.
Q. Those were the names the girls gave at the station-hoise?
[Ai Yes, sir; I can remember those two.
Q And do you remember the name of the officer that made the
arrest? A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember-I read this entry from the blotter,
gentlemen; "Saturday, August 12th, 1893; 11:15 p. mn, Rachael
Marks, aged 21; color, W., (stands for white, I presume); nation,
Russia; calling, none; single; read and write; residence, 23
Second avenue; dis. con."- captain, will you come here, please;
does that stand for disorderly conduct?
Captain Oross.-Disorderly conduct.
Mr. Goff.-"Name; complainant; patrolman, Henry Lang; disposition, fined $2; police justice, Ryan; remarks, bailed $300,
Augusta Thurow, 23 Second avenue, surety;" second entry,
"11:15 p. m, Lottie Raynor, aged 19; color, white; nation, U. S.;
calling, none; single; reads and writes; residence, 23 Second
avenue; complaint, disorderly conduct; complainant, Patrolman,
Henry Lang; disposition, fined $2; police justice, Ryan;" charge
applicable to both, " Charged with soliciting men from the street,
23 Second avenue, for an immoral purpose; " same thing, "bailed
$300, Augusta Thurow, 23 Second avenue, surety."
Q. Now, when you went into the station-house on that night,
you saw this sergeant, whose name we have read, Sergeant Liebers, at the desk? A. Yes; and Sergeant Clark was in his
private room in the oaptain's room.
Q. The acting captain? A. The acting captain, and I went in
and sid to him, "Sergeant, will you accept my bail? "
Q. To which sergeant did you say this? A To the one at the
desk.




i
i
i
i
i;~
i
i


1064
Q. Sergeant Llebera? A. Yes; and I says, "Will yoru accept
Ity bonds," and Sergeant Clark, I told him, Sergeant Clark threaL*-led that he would take all privileges away from me that I had, t the station-ho-use, and would not allow me to ta:e out girls on
bonds any more; and Sergeant Liebers said, 'Con't mind; you are
long enough in the business not to mind what he is saying;" he
say~, "Don't mind what he is say ing; you are long enough in
the business to not mind what he is saying; I will make out the
papers, and you take them out on bond;" I says, "I haven't got
the money with me;" he says, "That is nothing; you send the
money down;" every time I took the girls out on bond I had to
give the sergeant $5 every girl.
Q. Before we come to that, Mrs Thurow, was there anything
said when you offered to go bond for the girls, was there anything
said about real estate security? A. Well, Sergeant Clark said
that to me; he came out and screamed at me, and said, "What
have you to give for surety, have you real estate?" and I said,
aNo; I have not got real estate, but I went bonds for the girls
before, and they did not ask for real estate, and I am sure the
girls will appear in Essex Street, and that is all they want, as
long as they get there;" I tried to reason with him, but he was
scolding away and telling me he would take the privileges away
and would not have bonds, but still Liebers was making out the
papers.
Q. Did Sergeant Clark say to you that you could not go bonds
unless you had real estate security to offer? A. No; he only
stood a little ways from the door, and he says, "You want to
go surety?" he says, "What surety have you to offer? You
have not got real estate;" I says, "No; I haven't got real estate;"
he says, "What is your house worth? About $200 the whole
furniture that is in it," he says; then afterwards he went back
in his room, and the papers were made out, and I paidQ. Let us wait a moment; before you signed the papers, were
you leaving the station-house, when some one followed you and
said something to you? Wasn't there a doorman there that
spoke to you? A. That was on another occasion; at this time
there was nobody followed me; the papers were made out
promptly, and I paid fo them, and the girls went home.
Q. Now, we will keep to this occasion; when the papers were
made out, you signed the bonds? A. I signed the bonds, Augusta
Thurow.
Q. And you say you paid money? A. 'ien dollars for the two,
five for each. 
Q. Five for each bond? A. Yes.
Mr. Goff.-You have followed that, Senators, that the witness says that she paid $5 for each bond.




1065
ig-edordm" -m~Yes:
Q To whom did you pay the $5 for each bond? W. When
the papers were put before me to sign I went behind the desk,
and the sergeant got up, and I sat in his chair, and he got the
bond ready for me, and I put the $10 in one of the little shelves
that was above the desk, and he told me to be cautkmns the first
time I ever took any out on bond, to be cautious, not to let anybody see me put any money there.
Q. These were little shelves or pigeon holes? A. I can not
state, although I was there so often; I can not say they were
shelves or pigeon holes above the desk there; a shelf about that
high (indicating) that goes from one to the other.
Mr. Goff.- Mr: Chairman, I think we might wfih propI'e t
tale a reers now
Chmfrmnan Lexow. —Unfll 2?
Mr. Goff.- Yes:
Chairman Lexoiw.- If that Is satisfaclory we efand adjoumed
until 2.
Mr. Gcl.- Will you please announce to the witnesses tha
they must return at 2 o'clock.
Chairman Lexow.-All witnesses present hem under wubpc9s.
must return here at 2 oclock.
Afternoon session, June 4, 1894.
Present the Senators and counsel as befmw
Mrsm August~a Thurow, resumes the stand.
Direc~t exanination ontinued by Mr. Goff:
Mr. Goff.- The clerk of Essex Market Court here? (The clerk
responds to the call).
Mr. Goff.- All right; I ondy wanted to know you are here..
Q. I call your attention, Mrs. Thurow, to an arrest of some of,
your girls made in July, 1893? A. Eighteen hundred and eighty~three.
Q. Eighteen hundred and ninety-one, the 31st ot July; do you
remember that airrest? A. I know my girls were arrested very
often; but I don't knew anything about the date.
Q. I will take from the police blotter- read from the police
blotter arid ask you if you remember one of your girls being
arrested under the nanw of Martha Mit sker? A. Mitaker.
Q. Yes, sir? A. She unri~gt have given that uname; but I dot't
remember it.
Q. And a girl arrested under the name of Sarah Brown? A.
No; I do not remember that name; all the girls that did husiness and brought their company into my house are down here
In this book, and any party that adn't down in thls book I don-'t
L.       134




1066


i        ithink they did buiness in my house, so that I could consider
them as regular customers coming into the house; here are the
names; I do not remember Sarah Brown, and Oarrie Mitsker I
do not remember at all.
Chairman Lexow.- They probably gave assumed names at the
station.
Q. Now, I will ask you if you remember- 
Senator O'Connor.- Identify the place they came from.
Q. Yes; I ask you if you remember that Lottie Raynor and
Lena Lentz were arrested in July? A. Lotie Raynor was
arrested a good many other times; what is the other name.
Q. Lena Lentz? A. I don't remember that name; I don't think
you will find it in the book there.
Mr. Goff.-Mr. Chairman and Senators, I have the honor of
having had a communication from the district attorney, Colonel
Fellows, in reference to supposed efforts made on the part of any
person in authority to call witnesses to account for matters to
which they may testify to here. I think it proper that the committee to call upon Colonel Fellows as disrict attorney of this
county, which he is perfectly willing to do, and has come to you
for that purpose, to speak to you on that question. Colonel
Fellows is here.
Ij   ~    Chairman Lexow.-We would like to hear from the district
attorney if he has any communication to make.
Colonel Fellows.-Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, observing in the papers a statement that the witnesses
had probably been intimidated or were reluctant to appear
before this committee for fear, as it was stated, that some other
tribunal might take cognizance of their testimony, I deem it
only proper that I should communicate to the committee and
its counsel the fact that in so far as I have made any suggestion whatever relating to this matter, I told a reporter of one of
our daily papers Saturday night, who called at my house, and
to another reporter this morning, and have since stated to Mr.
Goff what I now state to the committee that far from there being
any steps taken to present any body before the grand jury, I
have assured these parties that I deemed it wholly improper,that at the present time the criminal authorities of this city
should take any cognizance whatever of this matter. It was a
matter for the committee, and until they had concluded such
investigations as they chose to make, and had laid something in
the way of a formal communication before the district attorney
there was nothing for me to act upon. I also communicated
witih the judge in charge of the grand jury this morning, and we
simply informed the grand jury that there was nothing of special
importance to bring to their attention at all. In so far as the




1OC7
district atforneiy's office is concerned, any fear that its authority,
or that of the grand jury, or of the criminal courts, will be us.,d
to check in any way the full and complete investigation of this
committee, or that it will fil to fullest extent to cooperate with
this comunittee is a mistake which I desire to have corrected at
once.
Chairman Lexow.- That will clear the -atmosphere very
materially, Colonel; and we are very much obliged to you for the
statement
Mr. Nicodll-May I crosw-examuie.
Charman   Loexow.- Yes; we do not doubt that the district
attorney will aid us in any way in his power.
Colotiel Fellow&s- I would be very glad to.
Mr. Goff.- I read, Mr. Obairman, from the blotter of the Fifth
precinct staition-house, under date of July 31, 1893, "Sergeant
George C. Levers in commiand," the following entry: We say, "In
command," in conrol, "Date, 11 p. n., July 31. Ndmaea Lottie
Ibaynor; age 19, white; nation, 1. S.; calling, none; single; can
read and write; residence 23 Second avenue; complaint, disorderly
conduct; complainant, James J. McCarthy; fined, $2; police
Jutidce Ryan;" same hour, "<Lena Lentz; age, 24; color, white;
nation, German; calling, none; married or single, single; cana
read and write; residenxoe 1444 Avenune A; charged -with disorderly conduct; compidinant, Patrolman James J. McCarthy;
fined, $2; Police Justice Ryan; charged with soliciting men on
Second street, near the Bowery, for an im oral purpose; bailed in
$300; Auguota Thurow, 23 Second avenue, surety; to Thirteenth
porecincL"
Q. Do you remember the transaction, Mrm Thurow, about those
girls? A. Not Lottie Raynor; she was taken in very often; 'but
I do not remember the other njame; she may have come into my
house, but I can not state.
Q. But. remember going the bail? A. No; I do not remember
going the bail; if they were taken in toethier, and I went the bail
for one, certainly, I took the other out, too.
Q. Yes; that is what the blotter shows here? A. If there was
two of them taiken in together, and if -the second girl was one batB
frequented my house, the one would say, "Mrm Thurow, take the
other one out, too" and I would take her oit% whether she
belonged to my house or not; I rememnber Lottie RIaynor.
Q. I read from the same police blotter, under date Saturday,
August 5, 1893, Sergeant Hugh Clark, at the desk.By (iairman Lexow:
Q. That was an occasion on ivkich -they were arrested on the
street, and-not in your hurse?  A. On the streetaand not in.iny
house.




m~y lfr Goff.
Q. I want to -corret ithat, MJuiat the entry is Sergeant H. Olarki
he went to supper; on his entry, Sergeant Liebers was also on
desk duty; I read: "Hour, 9:40 p in.; names~ Lillie Saunderq;
age, 24; color, white; nation, German; calling, none; single; can
read and write; residence, 23 Second avenrue; complaint, dis
orderly conduct; complainant, Patrolman Henry Lang; fined, $2
by Justice Ryan;" the other 1jime~, "9:40;" same entry, "Aunie
Lewis; age, 19; color, white; nation, U. S.; calling, none; single;
can read and write; residence, 23 Secofiid avenue; complaint, dis.
orderly conduct!; conmplainant, Patrolman, Henry Loang?" A.
'What date is that.?
Q. This is August 5, 1893; wait until I get throrugh: "Fined
$2 by Justice Ryan(; charged, found on stoop 23 Second avenue,
Fzici-ting men for immoral purposes; ball, $300; by Augusta
Thurow, 23 Second avenue, surety?" A. I remember taking both
girls out on bonds but I do not know whether those -two were
arrested on the same night
Q. You remember taking them out on bonds?    A. Yes; I
rememnber taking them out on bonds?
Q. I read from the police blotter from the same precinct, the
Fourteenth, under date of August 14, 1893, Sergeant C. Liebers
mn desk duty? A. It was not Liedbers always at the desk.
Q, I am reading from the report here: "Hour, 9:3.0, p. in" and
the name, "Rachel Marks; age, 21; color, white; nation, Russia;
calling, none; single; can read and write; residence, 23 Second
avenue; complaint, disorderly conduct; complainant, Patrolman
Jacob Leon; fined $3 by Justice Ryan; foruind standing on
toorp of 23 Second avenue, soliciting men for imnioral purposes;
bailed in $300, by Augusta Thurow, 23 Second avenue;' do you
remember that transaction? A. YeB; I remember that; that is
all correct; the girl can not read and write.
Q. Under date of August 14th, from same. blotter, I read:
"Hour, 9:30 p. i.; named Sarah Snyder; aged 20; color, whit3;
nation, German; calling, none; single; can read and write; residence, 23 First street; complaint, disorderly conduct; complainant, Patrolman Jacob Leon; found on Second avenue, near Seeond street, soliciting men for immoi'al purposes; fined $3 by Justioe Ryan; bailed in $300 by Augusta Thurow, 23 Second avenue."
A.. I do not remember that name.
Q You were testifying before recess, Mmrs Thurow, that yoU
h~ad placed $10 in a little shelf behind the sergeant's desk? A.
Yes.
j. Q F   torbond; now I wnih you to go back a litte to the firs5




1069
bonds that were taken from you in the precinct by the sergeant?
A. Well, when I heard -that Captain Dogherty was going to
El0rope, before that I had never taken any girls out on bonds;
before he went to Europe I went to the station-house and said,
Captain, everybody that keeps a house takes the girls out on
bonds; I would like to take them out on bonds;" he says, "You
can take the girls out on bonds;" I said, " I have a man that does
my plumbing and puts my stoves up, and does all the work; he
will go on the bonds; " he said, "You get the man as often as a
girl is taken in and let him go the bond, he is a responsible party
and he can take them out."
Q. Proceed. A. Then, after the captain had gone there was
one or two girls, I don't know which, was taken in; I went to
Mr. Sheyerman, in Seventy-first street
Q. Is he the plumber? A. Sheyerman; and told him he should
go to the station-house and bail one of the girls out on bond; he
went over and took her out; and second time he went there the
sergeant said he would not take his bond, he is not a responsible
man; and I went to the station-house myself and said to the,
captain, and said, "Before thie captain left here he stated I could
take my girls out on bonds as well as any body else in the neighborhood; " he said, " Te capiain is to Europe now and I have full
power at the desk here and I won't take that man's bond or your's
either; I said, " If you won't take the bonds that settles it and I
must go home," going out 9f the staton-house, out on the stair%
the doorman, Ike, said, " See here, you know the trick;" he says,
"Let me have $5 and $1 for myself and I will fix it with the sergeant;" he said, "You know the trick; you let me have $1 for
myself and $5 for the sergeant and the girls will get out;" I said,
" If that is what is wanted take me back to the sergeant;" I went
back into the room where the girl was sitting; there is a little
room apart where the officers sit to play dominoes, but there is a
room off that, and that is where I was with the girl; and the
doorman came in, and in front of the girl I gave him $5 for the
girl and $1 for himself; then they rang the bell, and I was called
out to sign the papers, and the girl was let out on bonds; then
whenl another one was taken in I sa, "If I don't make nothing
I will make the dollar the doorman gets;" I went to the desk, I
went to the sergeant, and went to get one of the girls out; he said,
" You know what to do;" I put my money on the desk, and I went
and signed a bond.
Q. You saved $1 by that operation?  A   And saved $1 by that
operation, that I was supposed to give the doorman.
Q Now, MTrs Thurow, can you state tat at all times when you




1070


Wigned bonds at that precinct station-house that you paid $5 for
each bond that you signed? A. I paid $5 folr each bond, only the
one that Mr. Sheyerman went I did not have to pay $5 for that
Q. But any you signed yourself? A. Any my name was on I
paid $5; Mr. Sheyerman signed those bonds and charged me nothing, because he did all my work in the house, plumbing and putting up stoves, and I bought whatever I used -
Q. So far as you know, Mr. Sheyerman was not charged $5 by
Hie police? A. Oh, no; Mr. Sheyerman -
Q. They let him of? A. He pafd nothing.
Q But whenever you signed a bond —  A. I had to pay.
Q.You had topay $5? A. Yes, sir.. Now, there is a little book here that you have presented;
this little book simply contains the names of the girls that you
had in your house? A. Yes; and each paid a dollar a week, if
tiey should be taken in that there would be a raid made in
there, and I headed it with $10; I put $10 in the till; I headed it
with my name, and they paid each a dollar.
Q. That was a protective fund, as they called i? A. That
was a protective club against the police.
Q. This money was to be used- A For the sergeants for
bonds money.
Q. To pay for the sergeants for bonds money? A. That they
would not be in a cell al night, and they must pay the fund
money the next morning; if not, I had to send the money down,
and they gave it to me back
Q. I hand you this book, and call your attention to the page
under November 10, 1893, and ask if that is the entry you have
tetified to now? A. Yes, sir; where the club was organized
ad I headed with $10; don't you see?
Q. And whose handwriting is that? A. Mine.
Q That is your handwriting? A Yes, sir.
XQ. And these girl' names are? A. All in my handwriting.
Q. But the names of the girls? A Of the girls? You will
find here Martha Winters, fined $5; well, this girl was taken in,
and I paid her bond, but I did not -I was supposed not to put
down bonds; I put down fine.
Q. You are supposed not to enter what you paid for bonds?
A. Yes; she paid her own fine next morning; I put down fine,
but it was bond; here is Sadie Reed, $7; that is $5 bonds and $2
she was fined in court; now, you see I paid out $29; you see; that
busted up this club; I would not put in the next day another $10.
Q. That was too much money drawn? A. Too heavy, and the,
club burst up; Minnie Ryan, I think, paid $5 bond and $2 fine;
Mary Davis, $5 bonds, which amount to 929, and here taking
s _~__~__~_~~~_~ _  _  _, _.-__-  —.- --  -  - -  -- ---— ~- 




1071
them out of Essex Street Market, Frankle and Maggie fined; I
only added $5 there; I had to lay lout foe each' of them $5, and
there is a mistake; instead of $34, it is $39; I saw that this morning; that is what I -paid from the 9th to the 11th of November,
By Chairman Lexow:
Q     In two days? A. In two da&,
By Mr. Goffa
Q. From the 9th of Nevemnber to the 11th? AB TWty-in e dollars, bonds and fine, and $2 fine in the police court, and the rest
all bonds.
Q. Of the sum of $39 there was $14 fine, and the rest all bonds?
A. Yes, sir.
By Chairman Lexowt
Q. How many girls did you have in ymor house at that time?
AL Three; they were not all in my house; there were three or
four living there, but the others were o tsiders who brought
their company into my housa
By Mr. Goff          '
Q I read from the polee court blotter, in orroboration of the
last testimony of the witness that on November 11th, the same
date as on her memorandum, that Sadie Reed, aged 23, white,
born in England, no occupation, married, can read and write,
residence 23 Second street, disorderly conduct, complainant,
Patrolman Henry Lang; charged with loitering on Second avenue
and Second street, for immoral purposes; fined $2, the same as in
this book; bailed in $300 by August Thurow, 23 Second avenue,
surety;" same date, under name, "Jennie Reilly "-it is " Minnie
Ryan" here? A. It is Minnie Ryan.
Q. She gave the name of Jennie Reilly, aged, 25; white, U. S.;
no occupation; single; can read and write; residence, 23 Seooad
avenue; disorderly conduct; complainant, Patrolman Francis J.
Hug0hes; charged, soliciting men for immoral purposes, Second
avenue and Second street; fined, $2, by Justice Ryan; bailed in
$300, by Augusta Thurow, 23 Second avenue, surety;" I will read,
Mrs. Thurow, the names of this protection dub, "Augusta Thurow,
$10?" A. I headed that; that is me.
Q. You headed the subseription? A. Yes.
Q. Frankie Moore, $1; Rachel Davis, $1; Mary Williams, $1;
Rosie Wilson, $1; Lizzie Lawrenoe, $1; Liliie Sanders, $1; May




'1072
PIo;  1; Mary or1auiq ' Cb3emran," dhe &rn't seem to have paid
any; her name is here; Sadie Reed, $1; Mary, Davisf $1; Hattle
HairMie, Martha Wilmdog, $1; Charlotte Price, $1; Gussie Pride,
$1; Carre Wili ams, $1;" Sadie Coben does not seem to have
paid nor Nellie Holden? A. They did not give me the dollar.
Q. " Frainkie Moore, 1; Rwahel Davis, $1; Sadie Reed, $1;" we
read frtm the blotter in further cm oborattion undier each nameSenator Cantor.- From the police blotter?
Mr. Goff.- From the pohioe blotter under the date of Ngwemniler
1fti, while the entry is here on No'vember 11th.; the difference
Uetween dates there, guided by the midnight mark is very slim
with these people; the entry is 8:30 p. m.
The Witness- In December?
Q No; in November; name, 'Frank-ie Moore; color, white;
nation, U. S.; calling, none; single; 23 Second avenue; disorderly
1noduct; coimplainaiut, Patrolman Heniry Lang; found on Second
avenue between First and Seond street, soliciting men for
immoral purposes; fined, $2; bailed in $300, by Augusta Thuriorw,
23 Second avenue?" A. Well, when the club' was busted up, I
did not make any more enfries.
Q. You did not keep a recoii of the transactions after the combination went to pieces? A. No; not after that.
By (Chairman Lex~ow:
Q. Who got this money; the $5   u gave het ssme person?
A. I put it on the shelf in front of the sergeant; I don't know who
got it when I went away.
Q. Did you seehim take -it up? A. I did not see himutake it up;
Iwas obliged to put it on the shelf; if I signed my bond, I then
bad to put the money on the shelf, and then sign my name.
Q And you were not allowed to sign your name until the money
was up? A. In one case I said I hadn't got any mouey, and the
sergeant said, "Mrm Thurow, you are good for it; yon sign, the
paper and send the money in," and next day at 12 oclock -the
sergeant told me he would be in, and before 12 I was into the
station-house, and gave him the zumisy; to the sergeauL.
By Mr. G~off.
Q What sergearnt? ~HI Ie  d me the ne tdyhe w1   d be on,
Until l
(CisirMnan ezOwO.- senator Cantor wou14 like to ams that book
By Mr. (oe.
Q     Now, Mm. ThrWw, I ak you to come -to the point when the
captain returned from Eurowe; that is Captain Dociharty; after




1073
he returned from Europe, in 1893, were you running business?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, after he captain retured, were any of your gils
arrested? A. Yes; they were arrested several times.
Q. Did you go to the station-house about the arrest after the
apbain's return?  A. They took them out on bonds; yes; as
usual.
Q. Do you remember one time after the captain re ed yoar
going to the station-house, when your girls were arreted and
your meeting Hoil there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember what Hoch said to you? A. Hoch says
you can not take any more; and he says, "We are going to raid
the house tonight; we are going to bust up that shanty to-night; 
but he sid, "You can go and take those girls up. on bond;" I
said, "Hoch, what is the matter? I take those girls out on bond,
and we take them to 23 Second avenue." I will leave those girls
here, and you will come up and raid me, and they are here in
advance; I won't take them away;" I went home, and the
sergeant at the desk sent a policemn up telling me I am not to
make a fool of myself; that Hoch would not raid that house any
more than he would, to-night; I went down and took the girls oat.
Q. Did you pay the usual $10? A. Tke usnual $10.
Q. Now, do you remember paying Hoch any money shortly or
immediately after the captain's return from Enrope? A. Well, I
paid Hoch $25; he eame to my ifat; oh, that was later; I paid
Hodh, a few days before the policeman was stationed at my door,
$2W; I think it was about two days before; and then' I went down
to the capin and asked him why that man was there.
Q. Let us come to that; after you paid Hoch $25, when the
eaptain returned from Europe, was there a policeman placed on
your house?' A. A few days after.
Q. K few days after? A. In front of the doors; in uniform.
Q. Did he stand there all the time? A. He went a few doors up
and down to the corner, but he was the most of the time in front
of my house; I went down to the captin and asked what that
man was there for, and he says, he had orders from headquarters
to elose down that house; it was too much a notoriety, and that if
he did not close it up that the headquarters would come and close
it up; but, any way, the man was, not there again in the three
days after I went down and talked with the captain, the man was
away, and stayed away three days, and then after that there
was a man posted there again, and stayed there 10 days, changing
every time the patrol came.
Q. Did the sergeant say to you or any other person at the
station-house that any official from headquarters had ordered
IA       135




1074


them to place a man in rtnt of your house? A. The captain told
me the superintendent ordered it.
Q. Captin -?     Captain-?  Docharty.
Q. Told you the superintendent ordered it? A. Yes
Q. You remember him saying anything about an official from
police headquarters having been solicited in front of your house?
A. Yes; Inspector McEvoy, the acting superintendent.
Q. Who stated that to you; that Acting Superintendent M Ivoy
had been solicited? A. Captain McEvoy and Hoch, too;
Hoch said this to me, and that the evening when he said that
the house would be raided to-night; he said Inspector McEvoy
had been solicited, and then Hoch went for a vacation, and I did
not see Hoch for a few weeks.
Q. Do you remember the captain saying to you anything about
the cause of taking the man away from in front of your house?
AL No; he did not say.
Q. Did he say he would send a message to you through Hoch
about it? A. I went down there and said, "I spend a lot of
money in the house and fix it up according to my taste,
and if I could stay in the house, I would make good and give
any such terms as he would state to me, as he would let me know
how to pay it; so then the captain said you go home, and that
man -will be away from the door, and I will send Hochi up to you
to tell you on what termsa
Q. On what terms? A. Yes; well, then that was in the afternoon, and at 6 o'clock there wasn't any man stationed at my
door anymore; then Hoch came back from the country, and he
went up into my flat
Q. That was about what month; do you know? A. That was
when Hoch came back from his vacation.
Q. In September? A. September, I suppose; the early part of
September.
Q. I wat to ascertain, Mrs. Thurow, if it was before Hoch went
on his vacation, in that year, or after he came back, that the man
was placed in front of your door? A. Hoch told me there that
evening when I went to take the girls out, that the houses were
going to be raided, that there was going to be a man at the
door, and I never seen Hoch until he came back again.
Q. Did you have any talk with the man that was placed in
front of your door at any time? A. Well, yes; I asked them
what they were there for, and they said they did not know.
Q. You asked the policeman what they were there for, and
they said they did not know? A. They did not know.
Q. Was that all that took place between you? A. I asked
several of them; they changed a policeman every time the man




1075
In front of my ho'use changed, I askei fiem, and they sald thme
did not know, and they were ordered, if any girls showed up ia
the front windows, to take them right down to the station-house.
Q. After Hoch returned from his vacation, did he visit you at
your flat? A. Yes; I went and came to terms with the captain,
and he said he would send  toch up, and tell me on what co;>
ditions, and Hoch came and said to my husband, I wantQ. Were you present? A. He said to my husband, I want to
see your wife; my husband came in the house and told me, and
Hoch himself, and my husband went up in the flat; I said, have
you any extra message from the captin; he says, "No," and I
gave him $25, and the $5 for himself, and he went away.
Q. Did he say anything about being surprised that the captain
let you open again? A. Yes, sir; he said you are doing pretty
well; I was surprised when I came back and heard you were
doing business.
Q. Well, now, when the aaptain took the man away from your
place, did he say anything to you about the name of the place
that you should run it under, or suggest anything? A. Oh, yes;
when I was there he said to run it under cover of a cafe, or cigar
store after this.
By Clirman Lexow?.
Q   onder cover? A. Under omr of a sfe or cigar stoEe; 
ran it under the nam  o e fCae Ezxaktts. 
By Mr. Goff:
A And did you put the letering on the doors ad w?sdot?
TL On the doors and windows; I put t on.
Q. Now, after that, when you were running the Cafe Exeelm
sior, were you pulled again? A. I -as pulled the 20th of
January.
Q. Weren't you pulled in November? A. I mean in November;
I was pulled on the 20th of January by Captain Cross, but before
that in November, I don't know the date; it was a little while,
about a week or so after I had given Hcth the money.
Q. The monthly money? A. The monthly money.
Q. And that would be around the 18th or 20th? A. It was
about the middle of the month; it may be a few days before or
a few days after; I couldn't state that for sure.
Q. Now, you were fined $25 then in Special Sessions, weren't
yon? A. In Special Sessions, yes
Q. Can you say, to your memory, at the time of Special Sessions,
did you see Detective Mallon? A. I see - Detective Mallon took




1076


me to the station-house; I said, " This is a nice thing; I am after
paying Hoch money, and I am pulled; he said, " Somehow or other,
you did not hitch with the boss;" he says, "But then, they are
all going to be closed here shortly, and the Parkhurst Society is
after the whole business, and in a few days First street will be
no more.
Q. He says First street will be no more? A. Yes.
Q Did you see Hoch at that time? A. Hoch was in the sta
tion-house.
Q. Did you have any conversation with him? A. Well, he
mentioned the houses; he mentioned the houses would be so.
Q. Did you have any conversation with Hoch? A. Yes.
Q. At the station-house at that time? A. Yes; I had a conversation with Hoch at the station-house; and at the time when I
went down there to see the captain I told him, I says, " It is funny
I must get out of the precinct and everybody is running; " he says,
" Find another house in the precinct and I will protect you, but
I will not stand for 23 Second avenue any more; and I found a
house, 17 Second avenue, the corner; there was a wine and
liquor store up there, and the man let me have that place.
Q What was the number of the place? A. No. 17 Second ave.
nue, the corner of First street and Second avenue,, nd I made
arrangements with him, and he said he would let n  have the
furniture in the place and the place upstairs for $100, and $50 a
month for the furniture; I paid him $50 down on the 19th, and
then the next day I was taken- it was on the 20th-of November anyhow I was taken; it was the 20th, I think, because my
receipt where I paid the $50 here, I think, said the 19th.
Q. Now, after you paid the $50 -? A. I don't know whether
it was the 19th or not; I paid the - I know the day I paid the $50
an the furniture in First street, corner of Second avenue, the
same night I was raided by Captain Docharty.
Q. Now, did he say anything to you further about protection,
about enabling you to conduct business there? A I said to the
man there; I said, "Now, I will take this place -"
By Mr. Nlcoll:
Q. Who was this man? 2 Mir. Lawrence, the man tiat:epi
the wine and liquor store.
By Mr. Goff
i Q. I don't care what you said to him? W I will have fot te
you in order to find out what Hoch said; I said, You ask Hocl
what protection I will have to pay right down when I take the




1077
place; you come down to the station-house and speak to them,
because it is your place I want to reni, ad you will ee"n and
he ame back and told me. 
Objected to.
By Chairman Lexowt
Q. Who came back and told you? W. Mr. tawrene!
Q. What did Hoch say to youn  A. That ws after I spol
to Mr. Lawrence first.. COome down to where you spoke with, Hodh
By Mr. Goff.
Q. You had a talk with Mr. Lawrence; wait awhile.
Mr. Goff.- It is a very strict application of the rule. I admit
it is not competent, but I think, in an investigation of this kind,
the whole matter should go in.
Chairman Lexow.- Let us see if we can get it out by conversation with Mr. Hoch; we may get it out
The Witness —After I had spoken to the man in the wine
saloon, he said Mr. Hoch would see me. Mr. Hoch had seen me
on Second avenue, under an awning of the house 31 Second
avenue, where the decoration place is, under that manis awning.
He told me the captain said I can open 17 Second avenue, corner
of First street, under these conditions, $1,000 for the captain and
$250 for Hoch.
Q. Hoch said that to you? A. Hoch said that to me, but the
wine man told that to me before.
Q. The wine man todd you that those were Hoch's terms? A.
Hoch's terms; and' Hoch would see me in a couple of nights; I
see him under the awning of the decoration place, and he told
me the captain wanted $1,000 for himself, and $250 was for
Hoch, probably; well, I says, "Hoch, I can never pay it; I want
you to ask the captain on what sort of installment he can take
that; I can raise $500, and I have a girl in the house that will
lend me some; I can mortgage the house; I will have to try it
somewhere;" and Hoch then went away; then I could not see
Hoch after that, and I spoke to Mallon, and I said, I am expecting.to see Hoch," and the policeman said, "Hoch is around all
the time, and he will see you; and I sent a man from the house
down for Mr. Hoch, and he brought Hoch up again, and Hoch
stood under the same awning with me; I said, "What does the
captain say;" I said, "I would pay $500 down and $50 protection, and $50 on the balance of the bill from the $1,250;" and
Hoch says, "Business are on the bamerina; Parkhurst is on the




1078
rad, and you have got to lay low for 30 days," and that is tie
last I see of Mr. Hoch.
Q. After that last interview that you had with Mr. Hoch, were
you rided after that? A. I was raided by Captain Cross.
Q. By Captain Cross, when he came into the precinct? A.
Yes, sir. 
Q. And you were fined $50 then? 'A. I was fined $50 two
months after that; the case did not come up until very long after,
and went -I was in the flat at 63 Fourth street, and my husband came up and said, "Ike Hirschman, the man that keeps the
place corner of Second avenue and First street, he has taken
a new saloon, corner of Broome and Allen, and he thinks it
would be a nice placeMr. Nicoll. —The. witness should speak a little louder.
The Witness. — Ie Hirschman came and told my husband to
fell me he had a new liquor store, corner of Broome and Allen,
and he wanted me to take the apartments above and use them
'for immoral purposes; I went down and spoke to him, and he
wanfed $75 rent, and things would be fixed; "Well," I says,
'how much will I have to pay?" He says, "You will have to
pay about $250 to the wardman, Mr. Levy."
Q. Levy? A. Yes; so I says, "Well, I will tell you, Mr. Hirschman, I have not got that much money, but my husband has a
diamond stud, and I have a diamond ring;" now, I says, "Ike, if
you will attend to this and give him the money, I have moey
enough to pay some down on the rent, and will try to pay something down; I will try to make a living there;" and so he pawned
the diamond ring and stud for $115, and gave me the money; I
paid $25 with it, and went down to the corner of Broome and
Allen and Mr. Hirschman said Mr. Levy is not there;I said, well,
"Around this place here I do not like to keep $150 with me; you
taje it, and if Mr. Levy comes in you give it to him, and he will
get the rest in a week's time; and he took it, and gave it to
Levy.                              - r
Objected to by Mr. Gof., 
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Do you know the fact that the money was given to Levy?
'L The fact the money was given Mr. Levy acknowledged afterward to me; then, after the money was paid and $40 down on
the rent, Mr. Hirschman informed me that there was trouble
about his licenoe, and I must not let one couple into the house;
I said, "You know I gave my last money; you know my husband's stud and my diamond ring went, and I have nothing to




live o   M y ce   1079 a
live on;" Mr. Levy came in, and I asked Mr. Levy, "Have you
got the money?" He said, "I got the money, but there is a little
trouble with his license, and then you can start in;" I was very
disagreeable with Mr. Hirschman, that he could not let me do
business, and that was the middle of February, and the 1st of
March I hadn't been doing any business of any account yet,
and when I thought I hadn't anything for the $190 that I laid
right down, why I sent the man that was helping me lay down
carpets, fixing things, I sent him with a letter to the stationhouse, asking for Mr. Levy; I said, "I do not wish to stay hlere;
here is this first mortgage, and there is some trouble with his
license; I want my $150 back, Mr. Levy;" he said, "Mrs. Thurow,
T could not give it to you; I gave Charlie Jacobs $50 of it, I gave
Tommy McKenzie $50 of it, and only got $50 myself; I can give
you the $50 back, and I can not go and get it of Tommy McKenzie." Those were two central office men, he said. Then I could not
say anything more abort that; when the 1st, the 2d, and 3d and
4th of the month came, and Hirschman was driving away at
me for rent, I had none to give him, and he disposessed me, and
I had to sell everything that was in the house for $45, and get
'out of there
Q. Was there any one present when you gave that money to
Hirscltman? A. The luncheon man.
Q. Al? A. Al; yes.
Q. I wish to ask you, if in addition to the money that you
have testified paying to the wardmen and the sergeants, and
the other transactions, where you were in Second avenue, did
you pay any money to the patrolmen on the beat? A. Every
patrolman on the beat there got $2 a week from me, and 'when
there was many changes every week, seven or eight different
ones in the week.
Q. Acnd the more frequently they changed. you had to pay the
$2? A. Yes, one told the other, I suppose; and they would stand
in front of the stoop, and I would go down stairs, and they would
say, "You know what's the matter; I am as good as everybody
else; I am flesh and blood, and want what the others get;" and
I gave them $2, every one of them; there is no exception.
Q. Do you remember any of their names? A. Henry Lang.
Q. That is the man that pulled in so many of your girls? A.
He is wardman now.
Q. Do yon remember any others? A. George Murdock, Mforrls
Hess, Billy Kennel, McCarty, Hughes
Q. And other names? Al I cannot remember any others.
Q. Do you remember at any of the times you were in trouble
about being allowed to sign the bail bonds, do you rcmember




1080


of saying anything to Detective Mallon about the difficulty you
had in gertting your girls cout.? A. Not to Detective Mallon; I
dcm't remember speaking to him abo'utt it
Q. Do you remember saying anything to anyone abont the
dificull you had in getting your girl. oat? A. Well I haba
difficulty in getting girls out..
By Seatowr Bradiey:
Q Do you remenber speainig to anyone abouiit the diulty
you had ingetting the girlsout? A. No.
By 'Mr. Golf
Q. Do you remember SenahtwoaRoesei hedh anything to d? A.
Yes, sir; one time when they refused my bbonds, I smid to my
hiu6iband, "Go up and tell Senator Roesoh now to. oore down
aid take them out on bon&; he said he would do it, If they
refused; he sald, "If they refuse your bonds, your khand  wm
let me know it, and I will see to it.
Q. Senator Roesdl said that to you? A. He said that to me
and t* my husband in his offi-ce.
Q. Did he say anything about the txmbie? A. I said, "I hafe
the. greatest trouble in gertting my gifis oat, somnehow, and he
said, "If you have any troutble, you send to me at the cdub
house, and I will see to it."
Q. Do you remember saying anything to Detective Hoch about
l*aving paid the money to Senator Roeech!? A. I told haim aibout
It, but I did not say much; he was trying to get at it
Q. What did you say to him? A. I said to loch, "I can not
alfford to pky more than I am paying-; yo peotjle treat me so
terribly, and I had to go to RIoesce, and I had to pay him for
i~s trouble; he said, "What did you. pay him?" I said4 "Never
mind what I paid him;" he says, "That is how it is with you;
you people get us angry; you give the money to the politieiama
that belong to the poltoe."
Mr. Goff.- You may examine.
By Ohbairman Lexowt
Q. You mean the money that was to go to the police? a. lie
says, "You give the money to the politicians, that ought to go
to the police;" he sas, "IAre the poitlckwu dong for you, or
we we k       Wizhg   yo- 7QIrN




1108IL
LAA
Croiss-evamimnafon by Mr. Nicoll:
Q, How long have you lived in New York? A. Ever 9sine I
was 3 years old; I came here when I was 3 years old.
Q Did your paxents bring you here? A. My parents brougktl
me here.
Q. Where were you living wh~n you first came, when you were
a child; were you living at one place? A. I dount know; I was
too small to know.
Q. Where do youn wecollet? A. I can recollect for about as
muob as 20 or 25 years, we were living 128 Iljex street; I
was living there with my father and mother; I inuarriad_ m
hu4.sband from there.
Q. This husband? A. This husband.
Q. When was that? A. Twelve years ag,%
Q. What was his business? A. Baker.
Q Before you kept the house 23 Second arvenue, liVaud  k~m eepitl
any other place of prostitution?  A. Never before; I alwaLyw
did drefsmaktlng, and my husband hadQ Beforc you kept it as a lomume for girls did, you. keep it as
a house of assignation?  A. No; I kept it as a straight house
before, and then I let it out, letting the reoms for so imuoh a week,
letting the premises for immoral pupposes, of course, but did not
have l any house of assignatiOn in the commencement.
Q. Where did you first commence to keep it as a house of
assignation? A. About four years egov; I did not take any notice
of date&
Q. Whehn did you first commence to take giorls in the house?
A. I took girls in the h'ouse, I might say, about six years ago; you
know the first part of the time, I only hWad the two toip foors, and
there was only a few rooms I could let, and when my huishand
worked as foreman anywhere, the workmen used to live with us,
in'W the house, and then I didn't have any girls at all for a long
timae; I don't th-ink -It is over five years that T took any girls i',
Q. What was the regular price p.iid in your house to the girls?
A. Before I allowed hiem to do any business they head rooms for
$2 and $3.
Q.. How much of that money did you get? A. Four dolorhir a
week. $3 a week. $2 a week.
Q. You mean to say they paid you $3 a week? A. Three dollars a week for a room on the top floor; I had girls living for a
longer while $4 and $4.50 for a long tihne, and they occupied a
front and back parlor for $5 a week.
Q. Whiat was charged by the inmates for p oititutifou? A. I
do not know; T wns letting thie rooms.
Q. At, the time you had it goiing? 'A. I could not tell yon
I         136




1082
*ia; I coud not tell you what they dharged; I never was Inside
a room where there was any business trasaictions; I don't know
what they charged; I harged nothing; I never charged anybody
anything.
Q. I mean to say,,hadn't the house any regular prfce; was it
$2? A. I can not say what they chiarged.
Senator Bradley.- Answer the question; that is all; do not talk.
A. I don't know what they charge d. 
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. How much out of each one of these business transactions
was paid yon? A. I got my money by the week.
Q. The girls paid you by the week? A. By the week; I got
my rent
Chairman Lexow.- She rened the rooms, as I understand it;
that is all..
Mr. Nicoll.-I only wanted to know how they run the house,
tat is, for the public good, and the instruction of the Senators.
Senator Bradley.-I don't think the Senators want to know
anything about the prices; we are not interested in it
Chairman Lexow.- Go ahead, counsellor; continue your examination.
Q. When did you first miake the statement from which Mr.
Goff has examined you to-day? A. When I first made the
statement?
Q. Yes. A. Shortly before my case was tried, when Captain
Cross raided me, I went down to my lawyer, Sullivan, and he -
Q. Who? A. Sullivan; and he always told me I would get clear
of it; and the last time I went down he said, "Now, Mrs. Thurow,
I am going to make a clean breast of it, you will have to do a
little fine, but it will be a city prison, and you are willing to do
a little time in the city prison;" I said, "Oh; yes, as long as I
don't have to go over to the Island;",he says, "The trial will
come off Monday, and you must bring $25 down; I can not say
whether you get a little. fine or city prison; I took it for granted,
he was only trying to make me not feel so afraid, because he said
bring $25; I can not say, but things look to me I was to get some
time; I said I was satisfied to get some time.
Q. Was you satisfied to get soane time? A. I told him so, but
I was not satisfied in my heart; I took the car and went np to
Dr. Parkhurst's and told him the whole business then.
Q. Did you make a statement to Dr. Parkhurst? A. I told him;
I didn't make a stat ent od what I told here, not one-eighth of it




1083
Ym gnye bh~C  ini ae cof -the gentral Item-M of dx- otory?  ~I 
told him of my tale of woe.
Q. You touldtim your tale of woe? A. Yes; I told mytale o
woe to Dr. Parkhurst; I felt so angry to think that after he
having my case and drawing it along, and bringing it before the
cuurt six or seven times, and not having it tried, and then in fthe
end telling me very nice and politely, "MiM. Thurow, you will
have to do a little time in the city prison;" I felt a little too
iuuich, and I felt revengeful, and I told DT. Parhaurst all abouit it
Q. Do you still feel revengful? A. N, I feel satisfied now.
Q. You feej satisfied now? A. Yea
Q. You have sort of comforted your mind now? A.Yes.
By Mr. Bradley:
Q It took $11O? A. After he got a huindred dollars fromn me,
and told me, "11Mrs. Thnrow, you will have to do a month's time,"
and after he got the $110, he informed me kindly and politely,
"You will have to do a. litttle city timne."
By Mr. Niooll:
Q Mr. Sullivan, the lawyer? 'A. Yes; iihkgy asked me to tell
the day I fist made the statement, and that is the day.
Obairnan Lexow.- Limuit yourself to answering the question,
Yes or no.
Q. When you outjlned it to Dr. Parkhurst, who did you, next
s-e; did you see the counsel for the Society for the Prevention
of Crimne? A. I saw nobody until I saw Mr. (j.off hhere.
Q. Did you next see Mr. Goff? A. Mr. Goff examined me here.
Q. Where was thal stotbenent or writing on which he examined
yoU; where was-that made? A. I never seen Mr. Golf until I seen
him here to-day.
Q. To whom did you make the statement from which, Mr. Goff
examined you?
*Mr. Goff.- I object. This question can not effect the value to
be given to this witness' testimony. I do not think it is right'to
permit counsel to go in and inquire into the secret channels of
cormanmuication that witnesses may have to convey their information to counsel here, whether it comes directly or indirectly. It
sifmqply aises up the question of further intimidation of witnesses,
to prevent more witnesses from telling people who may tell us.
I think this mcae is within the power of the committee, using its
discretion to protect witnesses from a needless cross-exami-in-in-ton
by this man. It is not upon the facts; it is not upon the evidence
Mr. Nicall.- Now, I say. here is a. committee of Ifhe TLegita-itre,
who are Sitting here to listen to evidenuce gaithered by a society




ra~E  Ijiave Tieen at w"r with t he poice force foir two 'yeors, and
who are animated by methods of revenge against them. Here is
a society emplorying three, four and five detetivea-&
Mr. Goff.-That is not true.
Mr. Ni-Coll.-Wh    aro  e going around and getting stories from
prostitutes to bring before this committee? Does not comnmon
justice demand that the committee ahould find out the way in
which those stories are gotten up and presented to it?
Chiairman Lexow.- After all, Mr. Nicoll, the point about your
inquiry is to set before the committee a state of facts which
would enable them to discredit the witnesses... That is your
object in doing that  I do not think this committee is going to
discredit the witness' testimony on such grounds as that. We
know how ftiis testimony has got to be sectred, and we know
thxrough the testimony of this witness, if the agencies through
which this testimony is secured is opened up before the police
department, we will have great trouble in getting testimony.
Mr. Nicoll.- This talking about intimidations is exaggefrateiL
Chairman Ljexow.-I am speakBnng of this witness desoribiag
through the evidence you axe eliciting here, the agencies and chaunels through which this testimony is being secured, and that moay
be very harmful in the future. I think you have plenty of ground
'to cross-examine this witness on without going into this question.
Mr. Goff.- I wish to say one word, here, that until Dr. Parkkunst came into court today, after 0tIis witness was on the stand,
I was absclurtely ignorant, or unaware that she had been to see
Dr Parkhurst
Mr. Niooil- I think Mr. Goff has enough to d4 to examine the
witnesses in ourat; bunt he has capable lawyers assisting him
here, whose uEsiness it is, anid the ciorps of private detectives
seated iaround this nxcma, whose busines it is to work urp this
tefitimony.
Claim=n Lexow. —A ruling has been made, and unles it Is
set aside by the majority of the committee it will stan&d  You
ought to bave, on testimony of this kind, you ought, to have the
widest latitude of exabination.  I believe you ouighlt to have the
widest laftitude of examinat~ om  You have got a witness here
who has given dates, given names, given timnes -and cirmmstancres
with an amount of minuteness that I have never heard before
in the trial of any case; and if YOu can not cross-examine bn the
faIcts in the testimony, you will not a-id the committee in crosqexariring on the basis of the statement you have just made.
Mr. Nimool.-I will come to my old line of croos-exanination
cm the limits allowed by the committee In a mo-nent; but T.
sppeal to the committee now to permit me to Einterogate   the




1085      -
witness as to the eicl itamces winder whfcni ths to- -'was grot.
teal for thibi ouunmittee, in view of the facts the woumuttee tiave_
Ghza~wain Lexow.-8uppswiug we -"&sume for Uhx~ ipux-pse oAi.your si'de of the ease that this testimony WUS 1irAt elkicitd &y
ineana of a special detective in the eunploy of LV. Park"taI4L
Probably that is %iiat you ax~e going to atteniapt to elicit. NSo -.-,
we wilt asziune that. What good will it do fur yOu, Lo elicit it!
Certainly not to get thle name of the peison wI-io ejicited it.
Mr. Nioofl.- On Cross-examination aihe adlsits ssjie only Iolil
a little of this to Dr. Parkautrst; she toA.. Lil 4 La-le of woe, and
now we foundi &~e hiam blosomed out into a witness ~nvolvinaud swearing away tile reputation of at least 20 differenatofficers,
perhaps nioire  I htive not counted them all up, belonging to the
police force In this city. 'Her story was very ml
CaI~rman L-exo'w.-Don't you understand that that very fact
will injure the testimony, beeause you will have thie clianoe off
w~iling.20 witnesses
Mr.' Nicoai.- I appeal to the conmkite to decke against the
ruiling of the chbair.
Mr. Go41f.-I object to the appeal being entertained.
Senator Oaaitour. —The ooumaittee bias avuight, to determine ti
question.
Mr. GoIT.- It come to a veqt serious questioin here.
Cfairn= Letww. — It is settled, Mr. Goff.
Mr. Goff-. I hope a precedent will not be established.
Senator Cantor.n- It is settled without discussion. The cowi'
mitee has d~cided ft without discussing it at all.
Mr. Goff..-I ask the committee shall not establish it nowm as 
precedent, because it would be mischievous.
Ohaira Llexoiw.-rWe are establishing -no precedent. I refer
the matter to the comnnittee, and the Chair has been sustaned
most unanimously.
Mr. Go~ff.- This thing, gentlemen, of a. lawyer, of a counsel who
is hiere by suifranee, and by courtesy only, having no rights,
appeahing to oyverrul e the deciasion of the chairman of the coommittee, why, it is an insult to the comnanttee.
Chairman Lexow.-. When the C~hair wants to sustain his own
dignity, he will do it Mr. Nicol'i will now continue the exam~ina.tion.
Senator O'Connor.- Mr. Nicoll, I desire to say, in concurrng
with -the chairman of this committee, in inLAkng this observation, we know tibia inquiry I's entirely different from the tria
of a suit at law, and your questioning in a litigation entirely
proper; but we appreciate the diffculty the evidence is gathered
under. We appreciate the difficulty the counsel for the oourn




ios0
malittee, 1*s In gettfng lWis evidence. We 'do not blelieve It pr~w
dent or wise to coinmpel the witness to disclose the' instrumentaity which they have employed to get them here. We believe,you have ample opportunity to thoroughly discredit her. She
speaks of a number of tndiividuals, and gives the facts, time and
place, and names of men outside the police force. It does not
seem to me it is in the interest of this Investigaition to iompel
the witnesses to disclose the agencies which this society has
employed, a't this particular time; and this ruling, as I understand it, was made without any precedent. We will meet ea.ch
sitnation as it comes up. There may come a witness on the
stand u-nder such circumstances, where it would be entirely
proper to compel the witness to disclose.
Mr. XicolL — Yon  will permit to appeal, from the Chair to the
mrnimittee.
Sentro O'Oonnor.-I think that is entirely right  We agree
wvith the chairman in this ruling.
Charman Lezxow.- Mr. Nicoll, if yeo -will continue the
examination. We have taken nup about hialf an hour in the dsi*a
cusslon.
Q. Did you rot reti~n Senator Roesei as yonx lawyer in this
matter? A. Oh, no.
Q. Not as your lawyer? A. Oh, no
Q. When you went to aee him at his law office on two Comseca.
Ive dayE, was it not for the purpose of engaging his service as a
3awyer? A. Oh, no; Osborne was my lawyer.
0. Osborne was yo'ur lawyer when you went into' the To'mibe
Police Court? A. If I needed a lawyer in any case, I always
would get Osboune.
Q. low often did Osborne appear for you? A. Twice.
Q. You had Sullivan on another occasion? A. Yes; T had
Pullivan a third -time.
Q. So, if you needed a lawyer, you did not always take (,W
'borne? A. I did when I cotld get Osborne; I will tell you how
It happened I did not get Osborne; this man -I will have to go
back to the Allen street-.
Q. You need not go back to that; whatt T want to know Ts,
about Senator Raoeseli; you knew he was a lawyer? A. I knew
Mi~m to be a Senator, I didn't know he was a lawyer, or what he,was.
Q. Didn't you go to his law office? WA?. TRe told my husband
W bring me down to his offkce; certainly it was a law offie.
Q. It says law office over -the door? A. 'Yes
So. So when you went to Senatior Romech's law office. you knew
qou were going to the office of a lawyer; didn't you? A. I did




31087
not Eave In my mind th'at I was mngaging a lawyer when I went
to his office; it never occurred -
Q. IDidxi't you go to him after your girls haid been arrested on
a nuirber of occaisious~ and you had been, as you thought, persecuted by the police, to engage bhs services? A. I1 went 1o Mi'.
Roesdhk to use his iminuence, so I could dID business, for him
Q.You didn't tell hiltat, did You? A. I dKd indeed; I WMl
b1dm hijat; I told Senator Roesoh to do all he could as I would
pay hilm.
Q. Didn't you tell Re~nator IRoesci you had been pers~euted by
the police? A. I always got th-em out, and did -not mention that
to Mr. Roesdc.
Q4 Didn't yo~u tell him you were persecufted by the police? A.
Yes; I wamited him to. fix it so I could open my, house agaITL
Q. D~dnut you tell him they bad fshut your house? A. It wasn't
shut; the policemen stood in front of the door, but the h~ouse was
nwt dlosed; aU the lInmates and'I was in.
Q. Were you diotug business? A. (Ob, no.
Q. Youir house hqd been sAnt? A. Well, it kad beern ghut
Q.The poffice biad shut it unp-? A. Yes, sir.
No.many timsin all were yo   or your girls raided by
the police of this cit~y? A. I can only tell how many times T was
raided; the number of my ghirs that was arres-ted was legoio~i.
Q. You ~say the tine you were paying -the polece money they
were- oonstantly.arresihig youw girls? A. Certanly thkey was;
the police blofter shkim lit.
Q.And at the very time when you were paying the money fbtr
protectorion the were raiding your house, and arresting your
girls? A. Yes; because tftey wanted to raid 1'he ranch, because
ff the terms did nvot coue up from $60 to $70, they would not,
take- -the noiterlty of it
Q. How many times~ were you in the Court of Special S-essions,
charged with keeping a (Ymcuderly ho'use in the poast four years?
W. Three timne altogethier tn the past four years- I was taken'
In one year; October and Nwiembe~r, the mext time; Om a year and
two Montlh.
Q. You were raided in the anbimum olf 1892? A. I was raided
twice by Captain Docehawlt~y and once by Captsin Oress. 
Q. Was the first raid in October, 1892? A.. It was Orto-ber
25th,; I guess it wee 1892.
Q. And yoiu were raided again when? X. in Norvember.
Q. November of the same Year-1892? A. In 1892 by Cap.
tami Dociharty twice in a year.
Q. And then Ouwere Mded agin when?         A.TbMe20th of
Janumry by Oapftafn Orow.
Q. The 20th.of Jaunary, 1890 or 1894? A.ug~e     ondred




1088
Q. Wezen't you raided at afl, during the year 1893? A.' Nbw,
I was raided oni the 25th of October.,
Q. That is 1892, isnt it? A. Eighteen hundred and niuneM
two; and I was raided in 1893 by Docharty; and in Januar  I
was raided by Captain Cross,
Q. You have stated that you. were raided abouiit Oetoiber, 189%
by Captain Docharty? A. Yes.
Q. You were raided 4n November, 1892; by Cap~ain Dochexty,
am I right about thamt? A. 'Wel, yce.
Q. You weme raided then in November, 1892, by, Captain Doch,
arty? A. I was eily raided twice by Capaisn Dowchkaty.
Q. Have you forgotten the dates? A. The 25th of October, and
in November; tbe middle of Novea3ber; I do not know witha date.
Q. Do you know -thq year? A. Well, it was 1893.
Q. November, 1893? A. Yes; it was in 1894 when Captain
Cross took me in June.I
Q. You were raided once by Doborty in 1892; you were inied
and you went back into the busuiness? A. Twenty-five dollars.
Q. And you went back into the business again.? A. Yea
Q. You were raided in 1893? A. Yes.
Q. And you were fined and went back into tkc business again?
A. Well, I had the business, for over - I didn't at that time
actually do very much business; the hbouse wab kepLt under the
dlosed condition.
Q Yes; during 1893? A. Not during the yeai - frol khe ti-me
Doherty raided me until Cross raided me - that was not a year;
it was about two months.
Q. From the time that Dohety raided you in Novembe-r, 18934
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't go back into the busines again to any gremt
extent? A. Well, y~O see I didn't go back to the business like
always with any promise of protection; I did it on my riak; Ihad
no protection from aaybody.
Q. You had no protection? A. Frlomi anybody
Q. You were amrestedI again and raidied by Cawptaim GMos to
1894? A. Yes; in January, 1894.
Q. And that was the time wben yoa retained Sullivan? A. I
didn't have any lawyer then
Q Isn't that the time you were speaking of when you retained
Sullivan? A. No, some'body declared my bonds forfeited but I
was taken out of my house, and they said I tried to skip my
bonds; and I said, "I never intended to skip my bonds; " and 1
went down to Oaptain Cross and said I heard It is anl around I
was intending to skip my bonds, arnd I told him where I was and
the captain knows I told hiMo that; I engaged Sullivan in the court&




1089


room because the.court clerk took me down to the Specia!
sessions right away, and in the Special Semsions is where I
engaged Sullivan.
Q.That wasthe third oouviction in a period of one and a haM
years? A. A year and two monthsz.
Q. You were cornvicted three times in a year and two mont1B in
keeping 'a disorderly house? A. Yes.
Q. Was that yourlast raid?  A. That was the'last.
Q. Then yon went out of the business? A. No.
Q You didn't? A. No; I was just saying that I tried to open a
place corner of Broone and Allen, and I was told to not saj
anything about it and was stopped.
Q You didn't go out of the business? A. Didn't go out of the
business.
Q. You went out 'of the business the last time you were con.
victed in the Court of -Special Sessions, didni't you? A. I had a
hoMuse there, and was trying to open it, and as I told you there
was the trouble with a house license and could not open it
Q Didn't you say to Mr. Goff, on his' exa 01ninartion, in answer t@
almost his first question, that your present occunpation was dress
maker? A. Yea
Q And that ha1d formerly been your occupation and that you
had at one time kept a house of proqtitution? A. I am doing
dressmaking -business; I sold my furniture, in Allen street.
Q Did you go into this place on Broome street for the purjos8
of keeping a house of prostitutkrn? A. Yes.
Q HaRae you got that place there now? A. No; I have not got
thaL place now.
Q When did you go out of the business; either quietly keeping
the house or intentionally? A. I was dispossessed about the
4th or 5th of March.
Q By the landlord? A. Yes.
q For nonpaymen, t of rent? A. Not having any rent.
Q. Now, having been convicted three times in this year and a
half, bow many times during that time were your women
arrested? A. I could not tell you; I don't know; I could not sa'
how many times; you will see my books say -
Q. It was a dozen at least they were arrested?  A. I don't
I-now; I can not state; tlisie was a dozen; I think there was momre
Q There is a dozen you havce told about here to-day? * A. Yes.
Q. And were they not convicted of soliciting from the stoop Ol
the honse? A. What isthat?
Q Were they not convicted of soliciting fr'o the stoop of the
house? A. Not always; sometimes taken in the Bowery; some.
-times in Second street
L.       137.




1090


IQ. Were itey ometimes- were your girls someTimes on tU
stoop soliiting? A. Yes.
Q. And sometimes on the street soliciting? A. Yes
Q. And taken in by the officers in that way? A. Yes.
Q. Now, in addition to all that,,the fact that you were arrested
and convicted three times in a year and a half, the girls were
arrested a dozen times at least, if not more; the police officers
were put in front of your house to keep order? A. To keep the
girls off the stoop; yes.
Q. To prevent disorderly practices going on there? A. Yes
Q. And the police stood in front of your house for a fortnight
at least? A. For 10 days.
Q. Now, during all that time, during the year and a half when
you were arrested and convicted three times, and your girls
were arrested 12 times, and when the police officers were put in
front of your house to preserve order, to prevent disorderly
practices, do you wish us to believe you were paying the police
money? A. Yes.
Q. When was the first time you ever saw Captain Dougherty?
A. The first time I ever saw Captain Dougherty was about a
week before election of 1892, that is, to speak to him, and I very
often seen him going along the avenue.
Q. You did know him by sight? A. Yes.
Q. The first time you ever had a conversation with himAL Was in his private office.
Q. What time was that?  A. It was before election; it was a
little while before I was raided.
Q. I mean the time of the week or month? A. I could not
state it exactly.
Q. Do you remember the time of the day? A. Yes; about
15 minutes to six.
Q. Fifteen minutes to 6? A. Yes.
Q. Did you go to the station-house alone? A. I went to the
station-house alone.
Q. When you arrived at the station-house, was that your first
visit? A. That was my first visit to see Oaptain Dougherty, yea
Q. Was that your first visit to the station-house? A. Yes;
but I could not see him then:
Q. Had you ever been to the station-house before? A. No; I
was in the station-house before, when I was raided; I was there
with the girls when Captain Dougherty raided me the 25th of
October; I was in the statei-house.
Q. You had been in the station-house when you were raided?
AL Yes, and then I seen him in his office after that
Q. Not ait the time you were raided? A. Oh, no; after that.




1091


Q. Then it was somewhere in 1892, November, that yon went
to the station-honse? A. Yes; it was a little before election.
Q. When you got to the station-house whom did you see on
this first visit that you went to see Captain Dougherty; when
you did not see him? A. The sergeant was there.
Q. Who? A. I don't know the name of the sergeant.
Q. Was there anybody that you can tell the name of whom
you saw on the first visit to Captain Dougherty? A. No; the
sergeant was there.
Q. I say, is there anybody whose name you can tell? A. No.
Q. When was the occasion of your second visit to Captain
Dougherty? A. The next day after.
Q. What? A. The next day after.
Q. And what time of the day was that? A. I went down
there and the sergeant told me it would be a good time to meet
him about 10 o'clock or a little after; I went down there and did
not see him.
Q. Who was the sergeant that told you it would be a good
time to meet him? A. I tell you I don't know the name of the
sergeant
Q. You say it was in the afternoon? A. It was the sergeant
at the desk.
Q. Was it about 6 o'clock, the occasion of your next visit? A.
No; 10 o'clock in the morning; a little after 10.
Q. That was the time you reached the station-house, was it?. I don't know; I did not haveQ. I mean to say about that time? A. I left my house at 10
o'clock and I went down there and the sergeant says the captain
is not here, and I went there again.
Q. On the occasion of your second visit you did not see the
captain there? A. No.
Q. Is there anybedy whose nIme yGon can give, whom you did
see on the ojcasion of the second visit? A. I can not give any
names; no.
Q. There is no person of all the police officers on that force
that'you can give th6 name of on the occasion of.your second
visit? A. I did not see anyone. 
Q. Now he said you must come in the evening? A. Then I
see him.
Q. What time in the evening did you go? A. I went there a
little before six.
Q. Who were in the station-house at that time? A. There was
a sergeant there. 
Q Who? A. I do not know the name of the sergeant.




109x'


QWhoelmewasinte station.? A. But the men were all up
in fiont of thle desk; they were just leaving the statIon-house.
Q.The men all there? A. 'Yes, air.
Q. Did you recognize any of the men you saw there on that
occasion? A. I could not swear to the name; I certainly know
teman.
Q. Tell us the name of any one offi-cer or officers that you saw
0on the occasion of this third visit to the. station-hodse? A. I
oau not he -positive whi-ch one I could mark out that I could say
for sure, 1 see them there; anyway, they were all in front of the
desk and were goin out
Q.You know a great many of'-the officers of that precinct, don' t
you? A.. Yets, sir.
Q. You had testified here you knew Sergeants and patrolmen? A. Yes.
QAnd wardinen? A. Yes.
Q.Even the captain? A. I only know the name of one sergeant and that is Clar~k
Q. Have you not given us the name of other sergeants? A.
No, sir; I -do not think, I have; the name was read out of the letterbook; I &goid it was not always Liebers, that was at the desk;
there were other sergeants there.
Q. You have given the names of seven or eight patrolmen to
whom you gave $2 to? A. I carn -not state whether s-uch men
were there; their faces were familiar b'ut when you are in a
gtation-horuse you do -not like to gap for anybody; I was sitting
on a chair by the wiudorw and when the captain's door was open
yoru could look in.
Q.Can't you tell the -naanie of a single officer you saw -there?
A. I can not nam-e one ot them and be sure he was there.
Q.Can you give the date; can you give the day In November on
the occasion of this third visit when you went to the sta-tionhouse, you say, you ha~d an interview with the captain? A. Not; I
can not give that date.
Q. Can you tell us what week in November It was? A. It was
the week of the election; it was a few days, before election,.
Q. It was election week? A. It was election week.
Q.Ybu mean the week which is prior to the election day.? A.
Before election day; yes.
Q.And fixing election day in your mind how long was it before
election day? A. I told you I did not krnow; it was a few days
before; I do not know how many days.
Q. Do you remember whether it was in the first part of the week
or the last part of the week? A. I don't remember that.
Q. What? A. I don't remember that.




1093
Q. You went thiere thiee consecutive days as I understand it, or
two days in succession? A. I went there three times but it was
only two days.
Q. Don't you recollect which of the two days of the week it
was that you went there? A. No.
Q. Of whether it was the first or last part of the week? A I
could not tell you; no.
Q. Who took you into the captain? A. I took myself in.
Q. Did you walk right in? A. He opened the door and says,
a Come in;" I went in; I was in the ro&u alone.with the captain;
nobody took me into the captain.
Q. Do you mean to say that you went right up to the captain's
door? A. No; I was sitting where the door opened; I could see
he was in; he opened the door and says, " Come right in"
Q. Captain Doherty? A. Captain Doherty.
Q. He sent another officer to you to ask you what your business
was? A. Oh, no.
Q. And you didn't ask any officer to tell the captain.that you
wanted to see him? A. I said to the sergeant, "I want to see
the captain;" he said, "Sit right down there."
Q. And you didn't say to anybody, or have any conversation
with anybody in that station-house, excepting the little you had
with the sergeant? A. Only I said when I went in, " I want to
see the captain."
Q. When the captain opened his door and invited you in? A.
He said, "Come ink" and, any way, beckoned me in.
Q. And you were alone witlh the captain in the rooIm? A. I
was alone.
Q. Was there any one present, who came in while you were
alone with the captain? A. No; no one.
Q. How long did you remain in the room with the captain?
A. I couldn't say; about 10 or 15 mincutes; something like that
Q. And you say you paid the captain while you were in the
room alone with him, and no one else was present, the sum of
$25? A. Yes, sir; but not the first time; that was the 6th of
January when I paid the $25, and this was in November, shortly
before he —
Q Did you offer him any money the first time you were in
there? A. I didn't offer him any money..Q. What did you say to him the first time you were in,there?
A. I said I wanted to make arrangements with him, and I couldn't
pay him a big sum of money, because I hadn't it, and he said
he would send his man Mehan around to make arangements
with me, and it would be all right
Q. You had been raided in October before that? A. Yes, air.




1094
Q. And you say that Captain Doherty stated that he would
send his man around to see you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To make aarangements with you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it would be all right? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that he stated to you when the door was cosed, in
his private office? A. Yes, sir,
Q. When was the occasion of the next visit to see the captain?
A. The next visit? 
Q. What? A. Well, let me think, so I can give it correctly;
I don't think I went to see the captain then again, until I went
in and told him about the bonds; that I wanted to take the girls
out on bonds, the mame as everybody else did aronmd there.
Q. When was that? A. Shortly before he went to Europe.
Q That is, you didn't see the captain again? A. Not in his
room I mean; I saw the captain every day passing the house.
Q. I am speaking of the interview in the station-house? A.
In the station-house before he went to Europe.
Q. The next time you ever saw the captain in the station-4use
before he went to Europe? A. Before he went to Emuope?
Q. That was in April? A. Now, let me see; the very next
visit-n)ol; I went there, I think, once or twice before that,Q. You went there on the 6th of January, didn't you? A.
Yes; but I went there before that; well, I can not say for sure,
whether I went there before the 6th of January or not.
Q. What is that? You don't know whether you went there
before-the Gth of January, or not? A. No; I don't think so; I
hardly think I was there before the 6th of January.
Q. That is, you didn't see the captain? A. Didn't speak to
him before that?
Q. Didn't speak to him again? A. No.
Q. Until the 6th of January? A. Until the 6th of Jamnary.
Q. In the meanwhile you had seen Mehan, hadn't you? A. I
had seen: Mehan; yes, sir.
Q. And gave him some money? A. Yes; I gave him $25; yes,
sir.
Q. And then were promptly raided again? You had seen
Mehan and gave him money? A. Yes.
Q. And then were raided in November again'? A. Why, Mehan wasn't there; when I was raided the second time Mallon
was there.
Q. What? A. Mehan wasn't there the second time.
Q. What was the date of the second raid? A. The middle of
November, you know the ~th of January, Mehau was put off
and Hoch was put on.




1095'
Q. Did you ever hear Mehan had been transferred from that
district about the middle of November? A. He was transferred
the 6th of January.
Q. And Mehan was in the transaction during the second raidC
AL No.
Q. The second raid was the middle of November? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Mehan wasn't transferred until the 6th of January;
he was in the transaction at the time of the second raid? A
Oh, no; he was not
Q. Now you say you paid your second visit to the captain on
the 6th day of January? A. I cannot say sure, whether I was in
there before; I am trying to think; Mehan wadnat there on the
6th of Januay.
Q. I am not speaking about the transactilo  with Mehan; we.will come down to that; I want to get your opinion on your
alleged transactions with Captain Doherty? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Come down to the second interview you ever had with him'
at the station-house? A. Well, the second interview was before
the raid.
Q. It was on what date? A. I cannot tell the date.
Q. Haven't you told Mr. Goff it was about the 6th of January?
A. Yes, sir; but that was when he seen me down in the basement; he told me to come down to the house, the captain wanted
to see me.
Q. I don't care when it was or how you got there; I don't
care even for the exact date; but about the datet of the second
interview with the captain, is what I want to know? A. I went
down there once or twice before.      -
Q. Take all the time to think about it, but get it as nearly
right as you can? A. I was down to see the captain, and asked
him how it was that my house was going to be closed up, and
other houses were running; that is how it happened; I sent my
husband to Roesch; that was, I think in the middle of the
summer.
Q. Now, I have asked you, and if I haven't made myself clear,
won't you please tell me so, as I want to make myself clear- I
have asked you to tell me about the date of your second interview
with Captain Doherty in the station-house; was it in the winter
or summer? A. It was in the summer.
Q. It was in the summer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And had you ever seen him at the statiro-house but this
time, just before election in November, 1892, or the summer? A.
No.
Q. That is true, isn't it? A. That is true.
Q. And that is as true as everything else you have sworn to?
'. That is true.




109M6


Q.You didn't see him, and have not sworn yon saw himi on
the 6th oft January? A. The 6Rh of January, I think I saw hiuL
QIn the sta-tion-house? A. In the statj.,ie-hotise; but I seena
him in the summer before that.
Q. ~Now, I will go over it. again; the first time you ever saw
him, according to your statement, was in October, 1892? A.
Yes, Sir.
Q. What was the next time?   A.Did you see the man i
1S92- take it that way -by yours-elf? A. No; M-ehan cOme
and got, the money, and I didn't see the captain again in 1892;
thbat is a fact, I didn't see him.
Q. That you swear to.? A. Yes, sir.
Q.No-W, did you see himi in January, 1,893? A. Yes.
(.At the station? A. Yes, In January, 1893.
Q. Captain Doherty? A. Yes, Captain Doherty.,
Q, What part of January? A. The sixth.
Q. How do you kL-ow it was the 6th? A. Because, there was;a man came anid told me to come down to Vthe station-house, the
captain wants to see me.
Q. That happened once or twice, didn't it? A. It happened
on the 6th of January.                  1
Q. How do you rec'ollect it wast the 6th? A. Because it was
somebody's birthday on that day.,
Q. Whose birthday was it? A. Well, it was one of -the g-irls
-that lived in the holusj.
Q It was the birthday of one of the goirls? A. Yes, sir; thhat
is what I remember, it was the 6th,.
(WWhlat was the girl's name, whose birthday it was? A. Liy
SRande'm
Q. Were you celebrating it? A. No; I waisn't celelbrating it
Q. What time of day did you gol down to see the captain otn
the occasion of the second visit? A. -It wasn't any day, it was
in the niglht.
Q.What time in the night? A. Between 8 aend 9, because
the man tod me to be there betwehn 8 and 9 o?clo~ck.
Q.Had yoni bipen thr becfore- thlat d~ay? A. C ertliinly; I had
bfeen there before thvat dayx; I wa,,s the,~re when I made the
arrangement be~o e ecc  timre.
Q. Had you be-en to the Rtaticn-howrre before that. day? A.No; therie was a man in the b-as-ement told me, and T wentanPd hie told mre to be there in the evening bet'ween 8 and 9 o'clock.
Q. Did you go alone? A. I went to the gfiation-h~ouse,alone;
rev husl~nd went with me till the station-house, and he stayed
in f-o-nt of the statiorn-houlse and I went in.
Q.And who died you see when yon went into the %tatimn-house?
TA I sen alwit four women an~d two men sitting there.




Q. And did you sit down? A. I sat down
Q. Did you see any ofi~cers there? A. The sergeant was there.
Q. What sergeant? A. I donrt know the name.
Q. Was it the same sergeant you had seen on the occasion od
your previous visit? A. Well, you know the sergeants are often
changed; when you go there one time, you won't see the same
one again; and as my business was not with the sergeant, I just
stepped up to the desk and said I was told to come here; he
said, "You sit down, the captain is in his room; theres somebody
with him; " and there was four women and two men waiting.
Q. Did you talk with anybody? A. No; ncbody.
Q. Not a soul? A. Not a word.
Q. And did the captain open his door as before? A. The two
men went in before me, and when the last man came out I managed to get the seat, and when the door openedi I was the next
one to go in.
Q. And then you were in with the captain alone? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And being in the room with the captain alone, nol one
else being present, and the door being closed, you say you gave
him $25, is that it? A. I asked if he sent for me.
Q. Did you give him $25? A. I offered him money; he said
he isn't supposed to take money; he gave me an envelope to put
it in, and said, " Put down Hoch"
Q. That was the occasion, with the door shut, you said you
gave him $25? A. I saAd, "Did you send for me?"
Q. Can't you answer my question and tell me whether or
not it was then you gave him the $25? A. Yes.
Q. Was there anybody else present? A. No.
Q. Was the door closed? A. Ye..Q. When did you see th  captain again? A. In a moaih ar. '
Q. In a month after; at his office? A. In his office again.
Q. Did you give him any money on that occasion? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You gave the captain money again? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what month was tht? A. February.
Q. Arid what part of the month was it? A. It was the comnencement of the month
Q. It was in February? A. Well, it was the commencement
'of themon1h; it was just abot time tnm  I thougrt the mxmey
was due.
By  iaSmain Lexow:
Q, Between the slt and 10th?  L. Yea


138




10oa


By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. And were you on thiat occasion alone in the room with
the captain? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was the door closed? A. Yes.
Q. And under those circumstances, did you say you gave the
captain the $25? A. I gave him the $25 again.
Q. Can you recall the name of anybody you saw at the stationhouse on that occasion? A. Not the name; there were four
women and two men there.
Q. I mean any office? A. You mean the second time?
Q. I am speaking of February? A. I don't reemember anybody
but the sergeant at the desk.
Q. Didn't I hear you say something about this being about
the time of the captain's trial? A. Yes, sir; I read in the
papers next day that Mehan was changed and Hoch was the
ward man; that was on the 6th - the 6th of January, I read it.
Q. I amn not asking you about that: didn't you testify somethircng
in your examination about Captain Doherty's trial? A. Not in
February; that was in January.
Q. It was in January? A. I think it was.
Q. He was tried before the commissioners of police, was he?
A. Yes; I read it in the papers.
Q. You want us to believe, at the time he was tried for neglect
of duty, before the oommissioners of police, he was receiving
$25 from you in his private room? A. Yes; he received $25
from me.
Q. What was the occasion of your next visit? A. The second
visit, you mean, after January.
Chairman Lexow.-Are -you speaking of the second or the
third?
Mr. Nicoll.-We have had the first and have had January and
February; the next visit after February.
A. The next visit was when Hoch came around; I don't know
when he —Hoch said he wanted to close up thie house, and
I went with the captain and asked him how that was.
Q. When was that?   A. That was the 3d of February.
Q. The second was the 6th of January? A. Yea
Q. And the third was February?  A. Yes.
Q. When was the next? A. In the middle of the summer,
uhortly before he went to Europe.
Q. Shortly before he went to Europe? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He went to Europe in April, didn't he? A. He did notl;
he went in the middle of the summer to Europe.




1099
Q. Do you recollect wrat, Mnith he went to Europe? A. No;
I do not kno-w when he went to Europe; I knorw it was very
w arm weather.
Q. Is that as near as you can give the date of your fourth
visit to the captain, that it was in wanm  weather, before he
went to Europe? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell the month? A. No.
Q. Or the week? A. No, sir.
Q. Or-the day?  A.No.
Q. Was anyone with you on the c-cealsion, of tWfls visit? Al NO;
I was alone.
Q. Did you see anyone at the statiorn-house any 6iea'iC   whose
name you can recall? A. No.
Q. No one? A. No,; I can not recall any names.
Q. And weve you in the captaip's private room -ogefeW?
A. Yes.
Q As before? A. Yes, sair.
Q. Was there anyone there present with you? A. No.
Q. Was the door closed? A. Yes.
Q. How muech were you fined on the occasion of your last
convictKon? A. The last conviction; $50.
Q. You -knew it was culsftoimary to send the kecers of disorderly houses, when convicted three times, to the Island,\ didn't
you? A. I didn't know anything; I took for granted what Mr.
Sullivan told me was' rtight; he told me was right: he told me he
woulld clear me of it.
Q..You have been in business for five or six years, and you
had seen keepers of disorderly houses convicted in this city?
Chairman Lexow.- Four years, she testified.
A. I didn't attend to anybody else's business but my own; I
didn't know whether they were convicted or not-.
Q. Do you mean 'to say you never knew of a case that kept a
disorderly houses, going to the Island?  A. Oh, yes.; I knew of
a case of that.
Q. isn't it a fad; haven't you known that after two or three
convictions a more severe penalty than the one Of imprisonment
'has been usually imposed; that has been the aos9tom in the
caurt of Special Sessions? A. Well, I have not known any particular. person that has had a severe pIunishment the' second or
third time.
Q. -.When- did you first see Officer Blmert? A. IC can not stae
the date.                          A
Q. What? A. I can not state the date.
Q. I don't expect yun. to state it; tell me the year? A. No; I
can not tell the year.
Q. You can not'tell the year? A. No.




0


~iO)O
~.Can you tell me withib two ye=ais? A.TeUI yo   tdhi
two years?
By Oh-airmitn texoiiv:
Q. Of the tie when you first knew himnX
By Mr. Nikoll:
Q. Of the time when you firt saw Officer Blesert?  A Well
le came -into the house and I told him that
By Ohairman Lexow:.
Q. The oouisel is asking yom the year when yoa first know
Bissert; don't give the converwation, but the time you first
became acquaiuted with him? A. I can not.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q About the year; what year, say It is 1892 or 1893, or 1894
or 1891? A.. No; it is abouttour years-ago; a lltle less or masTb
a little more; I don't know,
By Ohairman Leow:
About four years ago~
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Do you recollect the season of the year, wben you. saw him.
A. In the S'ununer.
Q. In the summer? A. In the summer.
*Q Did you then open your house of prostitution?  Ar No;
I did not; I had let the rooms to people; some of them sai4
they were married, and others said they were actor -and so on.
Q. I am not speaking of thhat; had you before opened the house
of prostitution, in the sense of kkeeping, the girls in thel house?
A. No; I don't think there was any at the time.
Q. Then, at the time yon first saw Officer Bissert you,  were
not keeping a house of prostitution? A. I didn't consider my
house a house of prostitution, but I heard that the girls were
doing business, and I was doing dressmaking at the time.
Q. You didn't regard your house as a h-ou-se of prostitution?
A. I didn't regard it, at that lime, as a house of prostitation;
I didn't think so.
Q. You wesre renting rooms to men, just to occupy them;
transient people, or whoever chose to ocampy them? A. People
who wanted flrnish-ed rooms.




1101 


Q. What do yom miait; wanted them for one or two hours?
A. For a week.
Q. They were renting the rooms for the week? A. Only b7
the week at thiat time.
Q. And you didn't consider, at that timoem you were keepdfng
a house of prostituition? A. I didn't.
Q. Was it at tbat time you saw Officer Bissert? A. I foumd
out the girlsQ. Was it at that time ot yvur keeping the hooie Oha~t yon
first saw Officer Biesertb? A. Yes, siL.
Q. That was the timeOhairman kiLow.-Just answer t~b  question, yes or no, whaM
you can.
Q. Where did yoa first see him? A. In miy honeus
Q. Where? A. In the 'house.
Q. In the bouse 23 Second awenoie? A. Twenty-thE Semond
avenue.
Q. What time was it? A. I csn not stats exactly what time
of day it was; Bissert somedlln-em  iued tocomae In the evening
and sometimes In the afftewnouo.
By Senator Bradleyi
Q, The first time?
By Mr. NicMl:
Q. This was the first transactlon, or ihie first om~ of yomu
alleged transactions, with the police officer, wasn't it? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Now, didn't thaU make any hnpression on, your. mind sofficient to enable you to tell us what time of day itwas? A. I
think it- was in the forenoon.
Q. In the forenoon? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was present art that time? A. I don't know.
Q. Tell me the name of 'any one who was present at the
occasion of your first inferview with OfficerBissert?  A.I don't
think there was anybody there; it was in the forenoon, and, at
that time, I was living down in the basement, when I first
met Bissert; I was living down in the basement of the house
23 Second avenue whenI first seen Bissert
Q. I don't care where you were living; what I want to know
is the name of any one; if anyone was present? A. I do uot
think tnyoine was there.
Q. Nobody present? A. Nobody presennt




11f2I 


Q. Is that the time, nobody being present, when yon gave
Offieer Bissert the $10? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you hadn't then commenced to keep a house of prostitution? A. I intended To.
Q. But you hadn't commenced to do it? A. You seeQ. You hadn't commenced to do it; answer that question?
Chairman Lexow.-Answer the question.
A. When I gave Bissert the first $10?
Chairman Lexow.-Just answer the question, yes or no. A.
I forget the question now.
Chairman Lexow.-Put your question againBy Mr. Nicoll.
Q. What I want to know is whether or not, when you gave
Bissert, according to your statement, ten dollars, you were keeping a house of prostitution? A. I didn't give it to Bissert the
first time I saw him; I gave it to him about a month after.
Q. The first time you saw him you didn't give him any mooney?
Q. You had a conversation with him about it, you say? A. Yes
Q. At which nobody was present except yourself?  A. He
said he would see me in a month.
Q. Did he see you again, do you say? A. Yes.
Q. Was any one present at this second interview? A. No.
Q. No, one? A. No one.
Q. Where did you hand him the money on that occasion? A.
In the basement
Q. In what?  A. In the basement.
Q. Where in the basement? A. In the back basement
Q. In the back basement? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in the kitchen? A. Yes, sir; it was in the kitchen.
Q. It was in the kitchen? A. Yea.
Q. Aind no one was present there?  A. No.
Q. None of the girls? A. No; it was the kitchen and diningroom both.
Q. Was any one present on any occaseon when you gave
Bissert any money? A. I can remember one time —
(Q. How lonr did you pay Bissert, according to your statement? A. I think he was transferred.
Q. That was only a few months, wasn't it? A. No.
Q. Was that a year? A. No; I think it was more; I think
it was until Doherty came there; I think it was-I don't know
how long.
Q. Was any one present on any one of the occasions? A.
There were girls at the dinner table, one time, and I had the
money and banded it to him in the 1ll, in silver and bills




t103


Q. That is what you have told us about here before, on your
direct-examination; was there any mortal present at the time
you handed it to him? A. No.
Q. Was there any one present? A. No, sir; ir was in thekitchen and I was in the little hall, and the hall was dark.
Q. I want to know whether there is anybody who can support
your testimony on that? A. No; there was nobody there.
Q. Now you commenced to keep this house along about the
middle of summer of 1890, it is about four years ago? A. Yea,
sir
Q. And then you paid BisseFt, you say, from $10 to $20 a
montl for a year? A. I don't know how many it was; there
was several times he came I didn't give him anything; I think
it was longer than a year I knew Bissert
Q. Non  when did you first see Officer Mehan?  A. Officer
Mehan came in my faue one time, and heQ. I don't care for the particulars o the interview? A. I
cannot tell you exactly when I seen him.
Q. Can you tell me the year you first saw Officer Mehan? A.
He came there during the summer of the first raid; during the
summer; I was raided the first time in October, and during the
summer he came there.
Q. You first saw Officer Mehan, according to your statement,
in the summer of 1892? A. Yes
Q. What months? A. I don't know.
Q. You don't recollect? A. No; I don't recollect
Q. Where did you see him? A. In the basement of 23 Second
avenue. 
Q.    at. W t? A. I  le baement of 23 Seoond avenue.
Q. Was anyone present? A. No.
Q. Did you hand him any money on that occasion? A. No.
Q. When was the next visit? A.-When he came into the
houase and raided it. 
Q. What? A. When he came Into the house and raided it;
that was the next visit.
Q. That is the next time you saw Meehan, after tibis first interview, in whtlch anyone was present, and when he came in there
and raided the horse? A. Yes. 
Q. And that was the date upon which you were convicted at
Special Sessions and fined $25 after pleading guilty? A. Yes.
Q. Had you been carrying on a house of prostituilion all the
time during that summei and during the time you were raided?
A. I was letting the rooms during the week; yes
Q. You had? A. Yes; and they were doing buFIness; yes, sir.
Q. Now, when was the third time that you saw Meeha? A




1104


Tihe third lime I saw Meehan; in the Essex market, when he
wlenit --
Q.When you pleaded guilty? A.Yes.
Q When was the next time you saw him? A. In Special
Sessions.
Q. What? A. In Special Sessions; I seen him the next time in
8pedal Sessions.
QWe was the next? A. The next time was when I give
bim money; then shortly before election.
Q. What? A. Shortly before election; the next time then after
I seen him in Special Sessions,, I saw him shortly before election.
Q. Shortly before election? A. Yesr, sir.
Q That was the time you had been down to see the captain,
wasn't it? A. No; then I hadn't seen the captain yet.
Q. Didn't you say you had -seen the captadin suiortly before
electon    A. Yes.
Q. And was it after you saw the oaptain that you say Meehan
came to see you? A. Yes; after I see the captain; after I saw
the captain Meehan came to me.
Q. Was there anyone else present at the time you gave him
tid e25? A. There might h~a.ve; I don't know whether the
doors were closed or open, but I gave him $25 in the hall; I
don't know whether anyboly seen it or not; I can not say.
Q. Do you know the name of any person whko -sa'w yOU pay
ikdian $25? A. I wall tell you, the girls that occupied the
rcoms, and maybe they might have seen it, brut I can net say
for sure they did see it; Mary Williams lived in the front room;
I don't know who rented the back roorm at the tihne-Liie
Samnderm lived in the back room; and I gave Meehan the.money
In the hall the first lime, Mbt I can not stiate wlhelier they see
It Cr not
Q. Meeban was the man wfro served the warrant Wpon yoU
end caused you to be arriested; wasn't he; he was th- w man that
raided yon? A. The captlan 'hhnOlf raided; he was in the honse.
Q Captain Dochairty himsel? Al. Yes.
Q.. Meehan was the man who was in court in Special Sessions?
& Meeban   went against me In Special Sessions, and In the
Essex Market (ourt                               I
QYou ewrr yen paid him $75? A. Twenty-five
Q. Twenty-five in Oet~ber, and 25 in Noreirlber, and In December? A. We weze raided in Octobei
a Didn't von pay Mbeehan, in October, $25? A. In November
I paid him the first after the electiomn.
Q  Then you paid him only $50? A. I paid him only $50;
that is all ever Meekisi got fronm me.




Q. He was the man that attended to your case in Speclal
Sessions, and the Essex Market Court, and Captain Docharty,was the man who raided you himself? A. Barney Meehan went
against me.
Q. Now, you are getting your revenge? A. No; I am not
getting my revenge; you are taking your revenge out of me
Lgagin
Q. What did Captain Docharty say to you on the occasion
of your second visit to him? A. The second visit to Captain
Docharty?
By Chainmamn Lexorw
Q The visit of January h? A. Well, he says to meBy Senator Bradley:
Q. Speak up? A. He says he is supposed to dose down al
the houses, and for me not to let any strangers in only old
friends, and for me not to take amy money myself, unless they
might send around spies from the Central ofiee, and have me
raided from there.
-By Mr. Nicool:
Q. What did you da? A. I went home, and wise very aeful
that I was not around so anybody seen me; I nevex took any
money anyway; I had tihe rooms let 'by the week; I told Captain
Doclarty there was no danger, as the rooms were rented br the
week; he said, so mucdh the better then.
Q. Was that all he said on that occasion? A. I guess that
Is about all he said.
Q. Is that all you can recollect he said? A. Tat is all I an
recollect now; I think tat was al
Q. That was all?  A. He said I must be areful and mt,
take the money, and then I says to him about the umntey.
Q. Is that all he said? A. I told you about the money.
Q. You told me twice now about it; I want to know whether
that is all he said? A. I said I brought the money with me.
Q. That was something more? A. Tha.t was more
Q. What else? A. He gave me en envelope, and gave me a
pencil, amd said, "Put down Hooh," and I put down Hooh, and
put the name on the envelope, ana it went back into the pigeon
hole.
Q. Was that all? A. Yes; I gues that was al
Q. What?. That is alL


L           139




1106


Q. Did you pay $25 in ffe month of  aroh, 1898? A I pai
$25; yes; but not to Docharty, in person.
Q. To whom? A. I paid it to Hoch.
Q. Where? A. I paid it; the fist mney I paid Hoch was
at the corner grocery on First street, under the shed there of
Lsuhrs grocery store.
Q. Was anyone with you? A. No.
Q. You were alone? A. I was alone.
Q. Did you pay Hoch on other days? A. Yea
Q. What? A. Yes.
Q. Well, now it was in Madrc  and Fear, 1893, hit the
police arresed your girls, wasn't it? A. Oh, they were arrested
some of'my girls, every week.
Q. Not at the time you were paying for proteotio? A.. Ohyea
By the Chairman:
Q  The  were arrested out in the street? A. Out In t
rtreet
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. But they were your girls, tiat were arsted? AL They -ere
wnt my girls; they didn't live in my house; I didn't always only
take men; my girls are named there in that book.
Q They were the girls who were in the habit of frequenting
your place? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And during the time you were paying Hoch money, were
your girls being arrested? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were you bailing them out at the station-house? A.
The first girls that I bailed out- was when the captain was
here; it was late in the summer; it was when the captain was
here that I took out the first girls.
Q. Now you say-after you had paid Captain Doihrty,
according to your own statement, in January or Februar., ad
Hoch in March? A. And Hock in March.
Q. Your girls were raided and arrested, and you yourself,
was compelled to stop business? A. Yes.
Q. Notwithstanding you had paid in this money? A. I was
arrested; they didn't count that; girls were arrested, and maybe
the girls would be down at the station-house, and were not
bailed out, and Hoch would be there for the money.
Q. You were paying for protection, weren't you, to be allowed
to do business? A. Yes; and don't you think it was nice pro
tection I got?
Q Yes; you want us to believe at that, at the time you were
paying for protection, you were compelled to go out of the busi




II Z7


ness; you were compelled to stop business? A. They expecte:
me to, but I didn't do it.
Q.Did you stop of your own accord, or because business was
dull, or what? A. I didn't stop of my own accord; Hock said he
would pull the house, and I couldn't let anybody do any businessthere, and I didn't stop, and I went down and spoke to the
~.aptain about it.
Q. When was that? A. I can not tell the date.
~.What? A. I can not tell the date.
Q.Which 4one of your several visits to the captain was that?
A.Iremember that I went down, an  ohsidh       ol pul
ithe Chouse; I -went down to see the captain abo~ut it, and he
sIdC "It -is on -the avenue, and he can not stand that house,
and it must be closed up."
Q.Which. one of the visits was that; another visit. to the
captain? A.. That is the visit to the captain.
Q. That is an-other- one than you have, told us? A. Yes; I
ean not tell how often I was down there.
Q. Was that the visit to the captain j-dst before he went to
14ur-ope, -that you are speaking of now?  A. I can net say for
aure, whether it was that visit or not; I can not say sure.whether that was the visit or not.
Q. Was it the visit in February? A.. No; oh, n&6
Q. Haven't you jfist sworn here that you didn't see the captain between February and the time he went to Europe? A. I
was down to the' captain on this occasion.
Q. You recollect swearing to 'that a few moments ago; that
you never saw, the captain between February and some time
which you finally concluded was in warni weather, before he
went to Europe; don't you. recollect swearing,- to that? A.
When Ho-ch camne and told me he would close the house, and
the girls were arrested; that was in warm. weather.
Q. This occasion when you went to- see the captain in warm
weather just before he -went to Europe? A. I can not swear
ap to one visit, about going z~o the captain; I can not say I xva-,just so many times; I can not swear to that.
Q. When was the -late of your visit to Mr. Rloesch? A. Th1e
doate?
QAbouet; of couie I do not,expect. youe to tell me -&he day of
the month, buit asbouft? A. That was just around the time, when
Hocil came and said lie wouild raid the house, and the cap-tabn
didn't intend to stand for it any more; then I went down tD
Roesch's office.
Q. W-as thut it -the mionth of April, 1893, about? A. I dc-nt
h-now wdlether it was April; I don't tht~nk it was _April; I thinkit was "warm weather.


0




1108


Q. HIoiw many months aoocain~g to ymor statemn,  did you
pay Hocl; you say you paid the captain in Jauary, and Fefr
ruary? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Twenty-five dollars? A. Yes; in Januiary and Feblruary.
Q How many m     Ahiia. did you pay Hoch? A. I paid him as
often as he came.
Q. How many months; can you tell us that? A. Three or fow.
timnes I think I paid Hoch.
Q. WThat?  A. Three or fouir dimes
Q. Thrzee o four times? A. I tijio I paid him three or four
times.'
Q. And as a result of paying Hoth the momey, you, were o)blig
tD stop business; was that it? A. He camne and told me to stop
buainew as the captsan had got tired of standing for the can&;
Yes, sir.
Q. And in the interval between. thit your girls were cowa
stantly being arrested and taken to the statiou-house? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Was anyone pr sent on any ocasion when yvmi paid Hoch
any money? A. One time there was; the grocer was not closed
and he was standkng a little further dowrn and the grocery man
seen me handing him the parcel; the groceryman Luhirs seen
me hand him the pacel. 
Q. The gro-ceryman named what? A. Lnuiu
Q. Where does he keep? A. Corner of Second avenue and
First street; he is away now; he is not there ant more
Q. Where is he now? A. In Brooklyn.
Q. What is his name? A. John Luihrs
Q. And you say Luhre saw you pay Hoch money?   ~.Hand
him the pParcel; yes, sir.
Q. Did Luhrs spea k to you about it afterwuads? A. I will
tell you how it happenied.
Q. Did Luhrs speak to you about it afterwards? A. Yes, sir..
Q. And say he haid seen you kind him the parcel? A. The
only evenin.g he seen it, he told me, yes; Mr. Lurs spoke txo
Mr. Hoch himself that evening.
Q. What? A. Mr. LurS spo ke to MIr Hoch himself that
evening.
Q. With that exception was -there anybody else present on
any occasion, when you say you paid Hoch money? A. One time
when he came up to the fiat, it was right after a policeman was
taken away from the door; my hus-and was by when I gave
Mr. Hoch the $25 for the captain and $5 for himself; that was
in our flat; that was in the afternoon.
Q Was that the fiat 31 Second avenue? A. Thirty-one First
street.




1109


Q. You say your husband stood by and saw him paid the $25?
A. MT husband and Mr. Hooh were in the friont room, and I went
back and counted out the money and gave it to Mr. Hock, tnd
my hmsband seen it
Q. Now, you did business during the enmmer of 1893, when
Captain Doherty was in Europe, ddn't you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were you aided before his return? A. I was raided
after his eturn
Q. You were raided after he returned? A. Yes, sir.
Q. During his absence in Europe, you continued to run this
house of prostitution? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were you paying HoEh then? A. Yes, I paid Hoch
shortly before the captain went away.
Q. And you paid him before'he went? A. Before the captat
went away, Hoch got the money from me.
Q. I asked you during the captain's absence if you paid it?
A. I was paying it while the captain was absent, every month.
Q. You were raided again in 1893? A. Yes, sir; in November.
Q. And then Captain Cross raided you in January, 1894? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. When was it the police officers were in front of your house?
A Right after the captain came home; the captain was the one
who stationed the first man in front of the house.
Q. As soon as the captain got home he placed an officer ia
front of your house? A. Yes.
Q. Now I understood you to say each rime you went down It
bail out a girl you paid five dollars to him? A. I put it on the
shelf.
Q. To whom did you pay it? A. I put it on the shelf there;
the sergeant sat at the desk.
Q. You mean oqpf on the shelf? A. There is a little shelf
and I put it on there.
Q. Why did you put it down in your book that you were
keeping that time, "five dollars to a fine?" A. Because I was
cautioied not to let anybody know I was paying those bonds'
the sergeant himself told me.
Q. What sergeant? A. Any one
'Q. What sergeant? A. I cannot tell his name; everybody I
gave the money to told me the same thing; I don't know any
one sergeant's name except Clark.
Q. Did he tell you that? A. He told me; he was sitting there
one time; the first time I asked him to accept bonds he said he
wouldn't accept any bonds and he finally accepted them anyway.
Q. Did he tell you- did Sergeant Clark tell you on any occasion not to put the word "bonds" ip the book, but put the




1t1
word "fine?". He didn't tell me to put the words in, but not
to let uanybody know I was paying for the bonds.
Q. Is that in your handwriting in the bookl  A. The book is
in my handwriting.
Q. All of it? A. All of it.
Q. Every word? A. Every word that is In It.
Q. Every word that is written? A. Yes, sir, is In my tandwriting.
Q. When did you make these entries? A. L made those entries
In the book when I came back from the station-house.
Q. You mean in 1893? A. I made these entries when I came
back from the station-house.
Q I say, in 1893? A. Whenever the girls were taken around,
I went to the station-honose and c(ame back and made the entries.
Q. There are only a few there? A. That is when I made the
entries.
Q. That was during the summer of 1893? A~ Yes, sir.
Q. July and August, 1893? A. July and August?
Q. Eighteen hundred and ninety-three?  A. It is November
9th.
Q. Very well, October and November? A. I don't.ft
there was any in October.
Q. Was that the time you made the entry? A Yes.
Chairman Lexow.-That only covers two days.
Senator O'Connor. —Two days and then the club bursted.
Mr. NicolL- August 5, 1893, and August 3, 1893.
Chairman Lexow.-Not in the book; February 10th and 11th
By Mr. Nicollt
Q Where have you had this book ev% since? 3! I lave
had the. book in the flat where I live.
Q. To whom did you give the book? A. To wom did I give
the book?
Q. Yes; you didn't bring it to court here, did you? A I
wrapped it in paper, and gave it to my husband.
Q. Did he bring it here? A. He brought it here to-day.
Q. Now, during all the time in October, 1893-Novembai
1893; when you say you were paying Hoch money, waa your girls
being constantly arrested and fined? A. In October, I was
raided, butChairman Lexow. —I think we have had all that
Mr. Nicoll.-The girls were arrested on the street, which was
an additional source of income, by getting the bail bonds, and
charging $5 apiece for them.
It




11W


By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You were arrested in November, 1893; weren't you raided
in October, 1893, or November, 1893; whi'ch was it? A.
November.
Q. Wh~at? A. It was in November, -I think.
Q. November, 1893? A. November, 1893.
Q.Didn't you change -didn't you promise the captain, or tell
the ca~ptain, that you would give up runniung -that house prior to
November, 1893? A. I never promised that at all.
Q. Did he tell you that complaints had been made againrt
you from other quarters? A. Oh, yes.
Q.In regard to your hose? A.. Ye&
Q. As one of the most disorderly houses in that precict? 
Yes, atir; he said' that.
Q. He told you that? A.- Yes, sir.
Q. Didn't he tell you that your girls were constantly soliciting
on the stoop, and the housermust be closed up? A. Yes, siro he
said that.
Q. -And -didn't you, for t-he purpose of satisfying him, change
the style of your house, into the Cafe Excelsior? A. I did it on
-the captain's-orders -to the Cafe Excelsior.
Q. You'say the'captain asked you to change it? A. Yea
Q. And then they raided it immediately?
if~r. G-off.- Oh, no. The-re is no evidence of that.
Witnes.- About four or six weeks after, I tbink.
Q. Four or six weeks after the captain told you to change. the
style of the house, he raided it? A. Yes; he did.
Q. Did I understand you to say, that you paid Officer Levy?
A.I gave
Q. The sum of a hundred and ninety dollars? A. I gave Mr.
Her~chorn $150 to give to Mr. Levy.
Q. And Mr. Hersehorn told yovu he had paid it to Mr. Levy,,
didn't he? A. Mr. Levy told me that Hersehorn gave it to him.
Q. llerschorn -first told you? A. Herschorn told me first, and
afterwlards Levy told me.
Q.Who is llerschorn? A. The man who keeps the place,
tiec liquor store, at: the cor'ner of Broome and Allen streets; he'
keeps the liquor store.
Q.And -now, in addition to all that you have said, that thiey
would pay the, patrolman on the beat $2 during all this- time -
ea~ch one of them $2 - they were arresting your girls all the time?
A.. -Yef.
Mir. Nicoll. -'Is that all?
Chairman Lexow.- Any questions, Mr. Goff?
Mr- t~off.- Yes, one or two.




111:L


PRy Mr. Goff:
Q. Mrs, Thurow, do you remember one eveniag, sitting with
your husband, seeing a great cnowd in front of your house? A.
Ye&~
Q. What time was that? A. It may have been about 8 o'cloek.
Q. How long ago? A. It was when the first policeman was
stationed in front of my house.
Q. When the first policeman was stationed ia front oa your
house? A. Yes.
Q. Did you see the policeman oarnypng a man who appeared
to lie helpless? A. Policem-an Morris from First istreet-the
pr~fednct station in front of my house; all at once he ran fromi
in front of my house, and, went into First street, and they
brxg-itht  a man between the two, and he was groaning terribly,
and they wanted to drop him in front of my hoane; they wanted
to drop the man there; and my husband was sitting on the
Stoop with me, and said, "Now see here, Mr. Morlrtis, I dont
want that dying man in front of my house; you take him back
to where he has been injured; " so Morris took him -awo hiuses
further and dropped him at 27.
Q. Twenty-seven? A. Yes, sir, 27.
Q. They dropped him there in front of 27? A. In front of
the stoop of 27 Second avenue.
Q And he laild there how long? A. He laid there to miy
recollection about an hour or an hour and a haf.
Q. On the sidewalk? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did that man die, do you know? A. The ambulaniee anme
then and they had quite somnie fuss there with him, the crowd
was so thick axruind them; one of them got up and said, "1That
man is dead;"  but anyway the ambulance tcok hm, andi the
next day I heard the man was dead; it was Monday at dinner
time I heard thie man was dead.
Q. Do yen know anything about that man; did you know Ike
cause of his death in one of the houses of ill-report on First
street? A. I heerd from thie giiA That  said she was there, when
he was kicked in the house; she told me t~hat. he was. kiteked,; I
see the man Iyltg on the sidewalk, but I didn't see him injured.
Q. Yon know the girls? A. I know the girls; yes, sir.
Q. And they tWld you wiere he was Vwlre-d? A. They toldI
me ihe was blrt and where he wma kicked.
Q. And by whaon was he kicked? A. And by whom wobe
kicked?
Q. And he was kicked In that portion of the body, bhmat we
called his privates? A. Yes




I11I


Q.Do you know if -There has been arrests made in connecttob
wtith th~at house? A. I Rieyer have Reard of any thidng about it
at all; I never heard any more; I only heard my neigiibors say,,
"Ain't it dreadful -"
Mr. Nicoll.- Now, I objecet to that.
Chairman Lexow.- Thiat is excluded.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Do you remember, Mrs. Thurow, when you were served with
a subpoena fin this cawe, did anyone sae you after you were served
writhi the subpoena? A. Nobody seen me.
Q. Yoru were served on Saturday night, were you not? A.
Nobody seen me.
Q. But your husband talked with you after yom were served?
A.. 7Yes, sir; my humb-and.
Mr. Goiff.- I think that will do6
By Chairman Loexow:Q.Did you ever remonstrate with the police on the ground
that you wfere paying for protecti, and still were not, from
tiime to time, protected by them? A. I went down and talkel
with the captain about it, and hie says, "The reason. why he
wanted that house do-ne away'with, it was the worst house
in the neighbborhood; " I says to; him, " Captain, is theire no worse
house in the neighborhood; is there one charge a-gainst my
house, down on a block where there has been any stealing, or
any abusaIng i man, or kickcing him, or half killing, or something
like that; why -is my house worse; what makes it the worst in
the neighborhood;"I he said, "Well, Mrs. Thurow, I have got to.
do away with your house in First street, and the days of the
houses in First street are counted; -they will all have to go,
toro,"1 he ssays; he didn't give any direct answer when I said I
k-onidered my house the best of them all.
Q".What times -on the occasions you paid the captaim-,,
'vecordingr to your statement, directly, $25 on three occasions?
A. On two occasions.
Q. And yet, within a short time afterwards you were raided;
didn't ion, remonstrate with the captain about being raided,
or protest acgaiust beingr raided, in view of the fact that you had
paid fr protctiont be protected? A. I said, " This is a nice
deal; T am home, always ready with my money;" and he said,
"You don't Wteh~ with the boss, and that settles it, and that is
the reasoin."


L.       140




114


t~". Was it because you were -not pliying enough? Al. That
r15 it; thtAt was what lo-ch said.
Q. )id -they ask for more money? A. He wouldn't'stand by
that ran.h for less than $60, and I said I cam not afford to pay
It, becauise I keep a quiet house and thuings were not done in my
Louse as they were in other houses around theme
By Senator O'Connor:1Q. Every time they told yoqa that they, wornld have to close
the house, they still took the money from you? -A. They did
istill take the money from me.
Q. JDid you stop the business of the house any time the police
insisted on it? A. Well, if they refused to take the $25 -Q. Any time you came to the con-elusio~n they really meant to
stop it., -would they refuse to take -the money? A. I certainly
wouilf have stopped if they refused to takke the money.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q~If the captain sent down word for you to stop, would youo
have -hto1)ped? A. I would have stopped if I didn't pay 1dm
the money before.
Q.It wasionly the payment of th~e money that led jyoa to go
on? A.t Yes, sir.
By Senator 'Bradfley:.
Q.Have, you any data so you cam count up them sum total ot
Wvha-t you paid for those purposes? A. I can; I could never
figure out how much I gave Bissert, because sometimes I didn't
pay him anything.
Q. a you, come near the total amnouint you paid foor tide
1purpose; we don't want it now, but can you do it when you get
borne? A. I can figure it out; yes, sir; I will figure it out.
By Senator Bradeys
Q.You can figure it ott and guess atIt? ~ I can figure ft
oi1t, and give th-e patroiman, too.
1By Mr. Goff:.
Q.Befere you went to Sen~ator Roescb's first, did you ever
bear of Lim as a lawyer, before hae went to his office? A. Well,
T can not actually say; I think his brother is a lawyer; I know
his brother is a lawyer.
Q. You know his brother is a lawyer? A. Yes.




11


Q. At the time you went to see Senator Roesch in his office,
did you have any ease in court, any law case? A. Nothing at
all; only that my house was in trouble.
Q. Only that your house was in trouble with the police? A.
Yes, sir; and I wanted him to settle it for me.
Chairma   Lexow. —Th-at is zlll mada.m Do you want th
examine any more witusses to-nigiL
Mr. Goff.-Yes, sir; we have got two very impoOraat witnessea,
Here is Mr. Thurow. Mr. Thuirow step up.
Ernst Thu row, called as a witness for the State, being duly
sworn, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Goff:
Chairman  Lexow.- Now, Mmn Goff, couie right downu to the
point
Mr. Nicoll.- I would like to know what lengtih this meeting
will be.
Chairman Lexow.- I understand there are two witnesses, both
of whom will take a short time to examine.
Mr. Nicoll.- May we say 8 o'clock?
Chairman Lexow. —We want to' get through before thatl
o'clock.                                     0
Mr. Goff.- We hope we will get through before that.
Q. Now, Mr. Thurow, do you understand me? A. Oh, yes;,
little.
Q. You are the husband of the woman who has just le t the.
witn~es chair? A. Yes.      -
Q Now, after your wife was subpoenaed on last Saturday
evening, did you see a police officer? A. No; Sunday mornin..
'Q. Sunday? A. No. Sundary evening; it was after 12 ocloek.
Q. Any time after your wife was subpoenaed?  A. Yes.t
Q. Do you know the police officer? A. Ye.
Q. What was his name? A. Morris
Q. Muirdock? A. Yes; IIMurdock..'Q. He is one of the policemen in your precinct? A. Ye&'
Q. George Murdock-? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say to you? A. He to-Id me. "Thurow, yom
have got a subpoena;" I said, " I don't know; I dont know that;
my wife, she got a subpoena."
Q. You said your wife had got a subpoena? A. Yes; "Well,
you got another one;" "'I don't know about that."
Q. Well, did hle say anythiig further to you; did he tell you
that it was knowin ait the station-house?  A.. Wbhat you mean?




1116


By Senator Bradley:l
Q. Did he tell you the policeomen knew if at thie station-house
when you got the subpoena? A. Yes.
By Mr. Gofft
Q Did he say anything to you about your wife should festify
here before this committee? A. Yes; he told me my wife, she
don't mention names on the police force.
Q. That your wife should not mention  anmies on the police
force? A. No.
Q. Did he say anything to you about the captain in that
precinct going to be changed? A. Yes.
Q. Did he say anything to you about the wardman in thit
precinct being changed? A. Going to be changed, too.
Q. Did he say anything to you that after, when they were
changed, that you could open up your house again; that your
wife could open up her house? A. I think he told me we can
open house then; I told him my wife would make never ever
another house that way.
Q. Did he say anything to you that when this committee would
get through that things would be better? A. Yes.
Q. What did he say? A. That he told me
Q. He told you that?
By Chairman Lexowl
Q. Just what; what did he say? W. He said since the Tlexow
committee is gone the captains is changed and my wife then
she can open her house.
Q. When the committee is gone and the captain is changed
then your wife can open up another house; did he say anything.
to you that your wife should simply say she kept a house of
bad repute, and say nothing more.
Senator Bradley. —He don't understand.
Senator Cantor.-Why wouldn't it be well to get an interpreter and ask what he does say.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Are you a German? A. Yes.
Chairman Lexow.-I can translate, but it would not be fair.
Mr. Goff.-You translate.
Chairman Lexow.- What is your question?
The Witness — He said my wife should say nothing against
the police; as soon as the committe has left the house would
open, and they could open up the house again, and I answered
we will never open a house again.,




1117 -

Senator Ljexow.- I then acted as interpreter and the followIng questions and answers were "giv~en:
Q.Is that all that was said? A. That is all th~at was said.
Ily Mr. Goff:
Q.Now, Senator, pleasa ask this witness if he belongs to the
same club that Senator Roe-sel belongs to? A. Yes, I am.
Q. W"hat iis the name of the club'! A. (Witness hand,,- the
chairman some tickets.) Tanunay club of the Sevyenth d-L-trict.
QWell, you are on the general committee of Tanmmany 1ta"
for that district? A. I am on the list, but I can not do anything,
because everything is done in EnJglish.
Q.Did you go to see Senator Ro-esch -about the trouble your
wife had in keeping her house? A. Yes, sir'; that was the time
we were struck; then my wife, she tolId me to belong to the club;
"You go up to Mr. Roesch, In order to see whether he can, do
anythinag for us."
Q. Did you go to Senator Roesch? A. Yes, my wife and I.
Q. Did you go up to the club-house to see him before you saw
your wife? A. (Interpreted.) 1 first went to Rocasch and then I.came back and told my wife that -
Q. Afteik you told your wife dhid you and your wife go down to
Mr. Roegch's office? A. (Interpreted.) He said to me, "1I will see
what I can do," I said, "1Mr. Roesch how much must 1L pay?" he
said $150; then I didn't go inmmediately back. and he sent a secretary and he told me to go over to the club-houase, that Mlr.
IRocsch wants to see me; that was at 23 Second avenue; then my
wife gave me $100, and I went over to the club-house and gave 'it
to Roeach; he said he had a friend and I would heave to see him
at 12 o'clock that night and it would cost mne $50 more; I tolId
him I didn't have anything more.
Q. Did you give him p1-00 that your wife grave you to grive
him? A. (Interpreted.) Yes.
By Slenator Lexow:
]Q.I that, all oocurred between you and Mr. Hoewhbi  A.
Yes, sir.
Q. When was it? A. (Interpr'eted.) It must have October
or November, 1893.
Q. For what was the money paid? A.. (Interpreted.) He said
"I wfill see that you can do business again;" we were stopped.
Q.Was it paid to Senator Roesoh as a retaining fee as lawyer
or fo~r any other purpose? A. (Interpreted.) It was paid that
we might open again; I wanted to see him again; r haven't been
able to see him since




ill


By Mr. Goff:
Q. Did you say anythin g to Mr. Roesch about the time that
your wife had troubl~e in going buRl for the girls? A. (Interpreted4' He saicd, "If your &irls are arvrested dagain send for me
and I will W~aiI them oat."
Q. Yio  went with your wife do"wn to Senuitr RorTesci's.office?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you belong to any other cldb in the district? A. (Interpret'ed.j  I am not a member of any otiier club in the distrkiit.
By Senator Lexawz
Q. WeCre you present when your wife paid money to Hoch, the
ward man?   A. (Intertpreed.) Yes; I was presenit at one time
when money was paid in tike fiat; other times I was not present;
my wife always transacted that business herself; then on another,occaeion and at a corner grocery store, kept by Lubrws, I isaw
my wife put money into HlocI h'srand.
y M r. Goff:
Qk. Did you see your wife pay money to policemen at any
other time? A. Oh,yes.
Q. Just tell the committee wlmie you saw her pay money to
policemwten at other time? A. (Interpreted)  I saw her twiee in
tloeh's case and once to the man who premcded Hoch.
By Senator Lexow:
Q. What was his name? A. Bissett.
By Mr. Goiff:
*  1 Q -on did see your wife pay money to Blssett?  A.- (Interpreted.) Yes.
Q. More than once? A. (Interpreted.) I am certain about once,
but.I can not say about olher times.
Q. Did you s2e your wife pay money at other times? A. (Interpretei) Yes, sir; I went with Miy wife to thie m-tai'h, but I
didn't go inside.
Byv Senator Lexow:
Q Did you go into the office, or into the bujilding? A._(Tnterw
preted.) No; I remained outside on the sidewalk.
Q. Did you see other people going in there who were in the
same gtneral ]Jine of business? A. (Interpreted.) I can 'not remember about those details; I didn't botheir myself about their




1119


business; I was away most of the time; I only went into the
house when I went there for the purpose of meeting my wife;
I did not attend to the matter myself at all; my wife gave my
diamonds at one time to Hirschhorn for the purnjose of pawning it
Q. Do you know what the money was given for? A. (Interpreted.) I can not just say what the purpoe of it wasi myqwife
needed- e money and she used my stud.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. You hocked the stud? A (Interpreted.) No; I didn't
Cris-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Do you know that your wife was keeping a house of prostffitiou? A. (Interpreted.) I knew that there were girls there, but
just what they did there I do nct know; I never was inide
the wtms.
Q. Were you ever inside the house? A. Yes.
Q.. Didn't you see the girls there? A. Yes.
Q. Didn't you know what they were there for? A. No.
Y. ou didn't? A. No.
Q What did you think they were there for? A. Well, I don't
care.
Q. What did you suppose the women were in the house for?
A. (Interpreted.) I didn't bother myself about what was being
done there at all.
Q. I ask you again, didn't you know that your wife was keepiag a house of prostitution for four years? A. Yes.
Q. And weren't you living from it; were you not living on the
iproceeds of the house of prostitution? A. (Interpreted.) Not
always; whenever I got work in a bakery I lived on that
Q. And, except when you were working, were you living out
of the money derived from those women that your wife kept?
A. Yes.
Q12 You say you have been married to your wife 12 years? A.
WPelve yeara
0 Have you done any work in all that time? A. What?
is Q Have you done any work in all that time? A. (Inter
preted.) Yes; I worked for my father-in-law here in New York.
Q. When was that? A. Fourteen years ago.
Q. Is that the last work you ever did? A. No; we have got
four years the house.
Q. Horse of what? A. (Interpreted.) Prostitution house.
Senator Cantor.-He says that for four years he had a hose
t prostitution. 




1120


Q. Did you have a house of prostitution before your wife had
the holse? A. No.
Senator O'Connoir.-It is quite plain. This witness says that
for four years they kept a house of prostitution, and they lived
off the proceeds of it, except sometimes when he worked in a
bakery.
Q. W\here did you work in a bakery? A. (Interpreted.) On
Third avenue, at Strasser's, and most of the time I helped out;
I assisted right across the way, opposite 32, for a man by the
name of Koehler.
Q. 'Where were you on the second occasion when you say you
saw your wife pay money to Officer Hoch? A. (Interpreted.)
At the corner of First street and Second avenue.
Q. SWhat month was it in the year? A. I do not know.
Q. What year was it? A. I don't know; (interpreted); I never
bothered myself about it, and I can not remember dates.
Q. Can you tell the day of the week or the week of the month
or the month of the year or the year of the decade? A. (Interpreted.) What I can not state accurately I do not want to swear
to, because I have sworn to tell the truth.
Q. Can you tell us the date of the second occasion when you
say you saw your wife pay money to Officer Hoch? A. I can noit
Q. Can you come any nearer fixing that time than you did
the other one?
Senator Lexow.-Your first question was about the second
occasion.
Mr. Nicoll.-Then I mean the first occasion, now.
A. (Interpreted.) I think it is in October, but I can not say
anything certain.
Q. October of what year? A. (Interpreted.) Don't ask me.
(Balance of answer not interpreted.) I don't know that.
Q. Can you tell whether it was the year 1891, 1892 or 1893?
A. (Interpreted.) Eighteen hundred and ninety-three.
Q. Was it in, October, 1893? A. I do not know what month
it is, bil I know it was in 1893. 
Q. Tlat you know; is that all you can recollect about it, that
it was in the year 1893? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is all? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You can not tell either the week or the month or the day?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell the year or the month or the week or the day
whitn you say you saw your wife pay money to Bissert? A. No.
Q. Didn't you know that Senator Roesch was a lawyer? A.
Ye&.




~1121
Q. Veren't you and your wife in trouble in your business of
running this house? A. (Interpreted.) When he could do me a
favor then I went to him.
Q. Weren't you and your wife in trouble in the business of
keeping a house of prostitution? A. (Interpreted.) Yes; we were
in trouble, and that is the reason I went to him.
Q. You went to his law offices, didn't you? A. Yes, sir.
Q You didn't go to his clubhouse first?  A. (Interpreted) I
was first in his clubhouse, and then I told my wife; he said -
Q. He said, if you wanted to see him, in business that you
should go to see him at his law office? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You brought your wife downl to his law <office? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Didn't you engage him then for the purpose of helping you
in trouble?  A. No; I wanted himr to do me a favor; that is
why I belong to the club.
Q. You expected a lawyer to help you out without getting
pay? (Witness answers in German.)
Q. Did you expect a lawyer to help you out of your difficulty
without getting pay?
Senator Lexow. —I think we can draw these conclusions as
well as the witness. 
Mir. Nicoll.- Can you not ask him that? He is a very intelligent witness if you put the question o him.
A. (Interpreted.) No; I didn't consider that I engaged him
as a lawyer.
Q. Yet you knew that he was a lawyer and went to his law
office when you were in trouble? A. Yes.
Q. Have you been engaged in political fights up in that districts? A. (Interpreted.) I never took any interest in the politics
up there in; the district
Q. Do yo know anybody of the Steokler Association?     A
(Interpreted.) I know the Steckler Association.
Q. Did you tell any member of fthe Steckler Association this
story? A. No.
Q. To whom did you first tell it? A. What?
Q. To whom did you first tell this stcy that you are telling
now, and when, about your relations with Senator Roesch? A.
(Interpreted.) I spoke to my wife first about it.
Q. Well, except your wife? A. (Interpreted.) I spoke to nobody.
Q. You never told it to anybody except your wife? A. No.
By Senator Oantor:
Q. Are you a member of the Steckler AAsoation now? A. No.
Q. Were you ever a member of it? A. (Interpreted.) I am not
a member of the Stecler Association and never have been.
1L        141




1122 i
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. You are a Tammany Hall Democrmt of good standing, m
you not? A. Interpreted.) I am nothing now, politically_
(The witness hamded the aoomnmttee a card.)
By Mr. Nicol:
Q Do you belong to the Independent OoamEy Organiznakf?
A. (Interpreted.) No; if I belonged to anything, I belong to
Tammany Hall; that is the last that I paid to.
Mr. Goff.-We offer this aard in evidence, colr and all  It in
o follows 
"The" Democatic Republican General (omittee of the city
and county of New York will meet at Tammany Hall, Friday
evening, Janmary 12, 1894, at 7.30 o'clock.
JAMES J. MARTIN,
Johl B. McOoldrick,.bairna  Exeeutive Co   itte
Joel 0. Stevens,
John B. EL Meyem,
Secetaries.
Mr. NioolL-I see no objection o tbi      If the genailenma
wants to give a nice political bias to the ivestigation.
Mr. Goff.-No political bias at all.
Mr. Nicoll.-Well, that helps us along.
Mr. Goff. —He is a Tammany man. I want to ask him one
question which I do not think has been brought out clearly.
Will you kindly ask him Senator, if Senator Roesch said anmything to him when he received the $100; that he needed $50
more for someone that he had to see that night  When he paid
Senator Roesch the $100, ask him if Senator Roesch said anything to him about requring $50 more for somene he had to
see that night.
he Witness. (Throngh interpreter.) Yes; that is what he said.
Katie Schubert, called as a witness on behalf of the committee,
being duly sworn, testified as follows'
Direct-examination by Mr. Goff:
Q. I hand you a little card; is that the card of your htose?
A. Yes.
Mr. Goff.-It reads: Mra Schubert, 144 Christie street, be,
tween Broome and Delancey, New York," and is in imitatio
of a posage stamp.
Q. Do you know Dr. DeFaulk? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He is your house physician? A. Yes, he used to be.




a123


Q. These little health certificates were issued to the young
ladies of your house? A. Yes, sir. (Papers were handed to the
witness.)
Q. What is that name? (Referring to name on paper.) I am
sure I cannot remember the name.
Q. That is "Mamie" anyway? A. It is some name.
Q. How long were you keeping the house at 14 Christie street?
A. For a little over two years.
Q. Were you ever pulled? A. No; never been pulled
Q. Ever been pulled? A. No.
Q. Did policemen ever get into your house? A. Never.
Q. Never made any trouble for you at all? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember when Captain Devery left the precinct?
AL When he left I was not in business any more.
Q. Were you in business at any time when Captain D1every
was there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You knew his wardman, Glennon, did you not? A. Yes.
Q. Do you klow when Captain Cross was in the precinct? A.
Yes.
Q You have not been able to get alongfas nicely with Captain
Cross as you did with Captain Devery, have you?  A. They
were about the same to me, one as well as the other.
Q. When Captain Devery came into the precinct there was not
any trouble for you at all? A. No.
Q. You didn't like Captain Cross as well as you liked Captain
Devery, did you? A. They were all the same to me.
Q. Didn't Captain Cross make some trouble for you? A. He
didn't make any trouble for me; not more than Devery; I had to
give up money to him.
Q. You had to give up money to him? A. Certainly.
Q. To whom did you give the first money? A. The first money,
I gave it to the captain himself.
Q. What captain? A. The Captains Cross, McLaughlin and
Devery.
Q. This is the gentleman in the court-room here. (Indicating.)
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You recognize him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much money did you give up to Captain Cross? A.
$500.
Q. Where did you pay the money? A. In my house.
Q. Did he go into the house for it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say? A. Just introduced himself, that he was
the new captain and that he wanted $500 and $50 every month.
Q. Did he say aiything about the initaitoin fee? A. Nothing
at all.




1124


Q. Nothing at all beyond that he wta the new captain and
wanted $500? A. That is all.
Q. Had you the $500 in the house? A. No; I didn't have it at
the present time, but I got it a few days after.
Q.How did you get it? A. I borrowed it off a friend.
Q. Off friends? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you tell the captain (and I am speaking of Captain Cross,
now) when he first called, did you tell him to call againn? A
Yes; I told him to call again.
Q. What did he say? A. He said he would when I thought
that I would have it.
Q. When he thought you would have the mwey,? A. I naaed
a day and of course he called.
Q. fe named the day, did he? A. Yea
Q. And he called on the day he named? A. I mamed the day.
Q. WQen hie called, just tell the Senator's whant took plaaoe?
A. Well, he just called in with his wardman.
Q. What wardman was it? A. Glennon, and went in the
front parloxr, and I gave him the money; that is al
Q. What did he say? A. Not~irg at all.
Q. Did you ask him for a receipt? A. No
Q. How were the $500 given to him? A. Wel% thee wee
doLlar bills and five dollar bills~ all kinds of money.
Q. But all bills? A. All bills,
Q),. Bad you it in a roll? A.Yes.
Q. Was there anything said when yoti gave him the  500
abou~t your being able to do bhusiess? A. Well, yes; he said I
wotild be protected, to run along quiet and not make any disturbance, fighting, or any noise; just to run my business quietly.
Q. Are you clear about the wardman's name that was with
Oaptaln Cross? A. What was hi3 name; Smith, wasn't it?
Q. Smnith; you said Glennon before? A. I made a mistake.
Q. (41e-nno-n was Devery's mon? A. Yes, sir.
Q Wh'ile Captain Gross was in the precinct did you pay, $50
a month? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who collected that $50 a month? A. Mr. Smit
Q. Did he come around every month for it? A. He come to
the house.
Q. EvNery month? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you gave it to him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you had no trouble? A. No tboJybk.,
Q. When Captain Crows went arway CapMrn Dever7 caene Thlire,
Iid he, not? A. Yesa




1125$.Q. Did you have a visit from Captain Devery? A The saniio
kind of a visit; he came to the house and introduced hiWuelt us
a new maptain.
Q. What did he say about money? A-. Well, $500.
Q. Did you have the money then? A. I didn't have it then,
Q.. What d-Id you say to himi? A. Well, I to-ld him I will try
aud get it in ik few days.
(.O Did you name the day for him to call fow itl? A. Yesi I
named the day about four or five days after.
Q. Did Caiptain Devery call? A. Yea
Q. Was there anyone with him? A. Elis ward =Mla
W. What waa his name? A. Mr. Glennon.
Q. Did you hand ()aptain Devery $500? A. Yesa, eir.
Q. in the same way that you hainded it to QCipt~ain (rorwf?
A. In the same way.
Q. Was there anythieng said about your doing business? A.
Nothiug at all.                       /
Q. Anything said about yor keepiing quiet or anythibhg of
that kind? A. No; I didn't say anything.
Q. Was there anytfhing said about moutbly panyments?.4
Fifty dola ra
Q. Fifty dollars a month?  A. Yes.
Q. Did the waxdmani Glemion, call for the $50? A. Evmy
month.
Q. About the first? A.. No; not exactly; sometimes the 3dc
4th, 5th.
Q. The early part of the mootah- anyway? A. Yeas
Q. Called at your house? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you handed him the $50? A. Yes.
Q. And that was all? A. That was all.
Q. WhTiiat other captain did you pay to:? Al That was all the
captains was on in my time, ivhile I was in businers.
Q. The only captdns. while you were in busaness? A. Ye&
Q. You were doing business before Captah —i Cross came into
the precinct, weren't you? A. McLaugbhlin was tlhpere.
Q. Did you have an interview with. Captain McLaughlin?
A. The same thing.
Q. iDid Captain McLaughlin demand money from you.
Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say? A. Five hundred dollars.
Q Was his wardman with him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do You rememubeir his wardmaji's uame? A. I think It
was Burns, if I am not mistaken.




1126


Q. What sort of a looking man was he tA9T. Short, stout, with
a sandy moustache.
Q You saw that wadnrman afterwards, did you not? At.
Evesy month.
Q. Every month you saw him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you saw him did you give him money? AL. Yes) sirn
Q How much? A.. Fifty dollars.
Q. Fifty dollars a month? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell the Senators about how much money you pabi
altogeether to the captains and to the wardmen? A. Fifty dollAr., a month; well, I never stopped to figure it together, how
mauch it amounted, to.
Q. You paid three captains $500 each? A. Yes, sir.
Q Do you know how many months that you were keeping
bUuse, altogether, for which you had to pay $050 a month? A.
I kept Louse about two years and four months.
A About two years and four months? A. Yes.
Th qEhat would be $1,400 at $50 a month, and $1,500, you pald
in cash to the captains; that would be $2,900? A. Yes, sir.
Q, Do you remember anything being said any time about gel>.
tinf   up Christ-mas presents? A., No.
Q There was no! further demand made upon you for Christnnas
presents? A. No further demands.
Q Were you visited by the patrolman on post? A. No.
Q You bVad no further trouble? A. Never.
Q The p500 and $50 a month cleared you from all trouble?
A. Yes, sir.
Q You were never pulled? A. INTo,
Q. XTnd no girls arrested in your house? A. No, sir.
Q. How many girls did you have? A. Five, six, and som&
fimies seven.
Q. AcoArding as the requirements of your customers called
fPr? A. Yes, sir.
Q Do you know if there were many houses just like your own
o-round that neighborhood? A. Yes; I suppose there was.
Q.Did yo-uknow of any? A. Not to speak to any of these
Q. You kept to yourself  A. I kept always to myyseltf
BY (armaan Lexow:
Q. Was tbi money always paid in bills? -A. XAlways in 5111ab
IID- Senator O'Connor:
-Q. Did you ever draw any of it from tie bank. I didn't
lbuve Imuch of a bank account to keep.




.1127.
Q. Did an the money that you could get in have to be given
eut in this way, practically? A. Yes; and when I didn't have
it I borrowed it.
Q. Were you told that you would be pulled in case that you
didn't pay this money? A. No; I was told that I would be prow
tected in case I gave it up; I was not told that I would be pulled
i 1 didn't
Q. You were simply told that ypu would be protected if yoa
gave it  A. Yes, si,
By Mr. Gofft
oQ You stated that you were never raided by the police; ye
had trouble, however, with Dr. Parkhurst's society? A. Yes
Q. But not by the police? A. Not by the police.
Q By the way, do you remember getting the tip before te
warrant was served upon you? A. Well, yes; I was tipped doe
by a friend of mine; it was not any of the police, though.
Q. You were tipped off from Essex Market Court? A. es,,
sir.
Q. It was there that the warrant was applied for? A. Nt
exactly; just to be careful; that is all.;
Q. Be on the lookout? A. Yes
Q. On that warrant you were arrested? A. Yes, sir.
Q. On the complaint of Dr. Parkhurst's Society? A. Yeta sfA
Q. were broughlt to court? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were tried? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And convicted? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much were you fined? A. Two hundred and fifty
dollars.
Q. Before what court, Special Sessions? A. Special Sessions
Q. And that, is the only time that you were ever in trouble?
A. Yev, 
Q. The time Dr. Parkhlurst's Society arrested you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you opened up since? A. No; I moved right out
Q You moved out right after that, did you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are not in that business now, are you? A. No; thang
God; never will
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Do you know any of the detectives of Dr. Parkhurst's
Society? A. Not by name.
Q. Do you see anay of them?    A. There is one of them
indicating).
Q. Did you come to court with any one of them to-day? A.
What is that?         '




,128
Q. Did you comi ti court with any one of them to-day? A
Did I come to court; yes.
Q. With one of them? A. A tall gentleman up there.
Q. Denmett? A. Yes
Q. He brought you to court to-day, did he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he the first man to whom you told this story? A
Oertainly.
Q. It was Dennett got it up? A. Yes. 
Q. It was Denmett who got it from you, first man, was it? A.
Got what from me?
Q. Got this story that you have been telling here to-day? A.
He didn't ask me any questions.
Q. Didn't you tell him anything about it? AL No; I had
nothing to say to him
Q. Who was the first person to whom you told it? A. Just
now.
Q. Never told it before? A. No; I had no occasion to tell it.
Q. Have never told it to Dennett or to any of the lawyers, or
anybody in the world before? A. I had not seen any lawyers
yet
Q. And have never told it to anyone before? A. No; what
occasion had I to tell it?
Q. That is not the question; that is a matter of argument; I
only want to know whether you had ever told it? A. No.
Q. Had you ever told it to any human being before you were
put on this witness stand? A. Do you mean today?
Q. To-day, or any other time? A. Well, I was speaking about
it to the gentleman who brought me here, but not to tell it
in particular as I told it now.
Q. You were speaking about it to Dennett; do you mean this
man here? A. The gentleman over there.
Q. Well, you spoke to him about it to-day? A. Well, I didn't
speak first; he asked me a few questions and I answered them.
Q. What did he my? A. Well, he asked me about wha I was
asked just now.
Q. When did he ask you that, to-day only? A. To-day, widle
we were sitting here.
Q. To-day while you were sitting in court? A. Yes.
Q. And until you came to court, you hadn't told this story to
anfybody? A. That is the only man 1 told it to.
Q. That is the only man you ever told it to? A. Tht is alL
Q. You never told it to him until today? A. No, sir; never
had any tmie to tell him a  other time; never seen the maa
before.




1129
IV F)09
JL.~lo


Q. Never saw him until to-day; and when you saw him fo-day,
you told him the story, and he is the first one you ever told it
to? A. I saw him when he served the subpoena on me, but I
didn't speak anything about it.
Q. Where are you living now? A. Well, I don't want that
mentioned; I ain't going to tell that.
Senator Bradley.-He declines to answer that question.
Q. You don't want to say where you are living now? A. sNo
sir.
Q. What are you doing now? A. Nothing. 
Mr. Goff.-I object.
Q. What are you doing now? A. Nothing.
Senator Bradley.- She has answered that freely enough.
Trhe Witness.-Eating and drinking.
Senator Bradley.- She says she is eating and drinking.
Q. How long before you kept this house in Christie street
lad you been in the business of prostitution? A. That was
my only place.
Q. What? A. That was the only house I kept
Q. Had you not been living in some house before that, as well?
A.No.
Q. You started right in the business? A. Yes; started
right in.
Q. Started in new? A Yes.
Q. And had never had any training before? A No; I didn't
need no training.
Q. Didn't need any? A. No; I was smart
Q. You were there how long? A. A little over two years.
Q. How many girls lived in your house, all told? A. At
times six, at times, seven.
Q. What was it, a $1 or a $2 house? A. Two dollars
Q Two dollars? A. Yes.
Q. Out of that $2, 'how mush came to you? A. HalL
Q. You got a dollar a girl? A. Yes.
Q. You had five or six girls living in the house, or seven, per~
haps? A. At limes.
Q. What rent did you pay? A Eighty dollars
Q. A month? A. Yes.
Q. Fed the girls? A. Certainly.
Q. Fed six or seven  irls, paid $80 a month rent, and supported yourself? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you keep any books or bank account or memoranda?
A. Never.
Q. Now, you say that shortly after the arrival of Captain
McLaughlin in the district, he came to your houe? A. Yes.
IA       142




1130
Q. With his ward detective? A Yes.a
Q. And told you you must give him $500? X. Yes, sin
Q. You told him to come some day later? A. Yes.
Q, He came some day later with his ward detectives? A. tea
Q. You gave him the $500? A Yes, sir.
Q He went away with his ward detective? A. Yes.
Q. And then you paid the ward detective $50 a month? X,Certainly.
Q. And when McLaughJin left the district, then Captain Cros
came with his ward detective? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he said he was to have $500? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you said you couldn't pay it at once, but you wold
pay it three or four days later? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he went away with his ward detective? A. Yes, sr.
Q. And he came back with his ward detective three or four
days later? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you paid him in small bills, all one or two dollar bill,
$500? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you paid the ward man $50 a month? A. Yes,
Sir.
Q Then, when Captain Devery came, he said $500? A. Yes,
Q You said you couldn't pay it just. then, and! he went away.
mad he came back in a few days with his ward man? A. Yes,air
Q. And you paid him $500 in small bills? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Xnd he went away with his ward detective? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the month of the year in which Captain Crm
came to call upon you with his ward detective? A. That I dat
remember.
Q. Do you recollect the year? A. Two years ago.
Q. Were you alone with him and his ward detective?.  Sll
alone.
Q. No one else was present? A No, fr.
Q. Were you alone at the time you say yoa gare hin    is
money; with him and his ward detective? A. Ye, sir.
Q. No one else was present? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you alone every time when you gave the detecive, a
youl say, $50? A. Every time.
Q. No one else was present? A. No, sa.
Q. Were you alone when you say you had these ranmactins
with Oaaptain Devery and his ward detective? A. Always alofe.
Q. And when you paid, as you say, the ward detective smo
of money, was that always alone? A. Always alone; yes.
Q. Have you got a witness or memondandum? A. I have got
no witness. 




111


Q. Or anything in the world to corrobiorate that? A. Votboing
~n the world; for I never told my business to noubody.
Q. Did 'aybody promise you any money foa giving this teaUimony? A.No; not at aIL
Q. What? A. No.
Q. Did anybody give you any money? A. NT46
Q Say anything to you aibout money? A. No; I wo-udinY t go
to the trouble of coming here and giving fakse tesfimnony for
any money.
Mr. Goff.- Why, the appropriation bill was vetoed.
Mr. Nicoll.- The Mal aind Express says that all the haradIma-n
has to do is to call on the Chamber of Commerce and get ali
the money lhe wants.
By M1r. Goff:
Q. Do you remember when you first paid money to the ward
men that they asked you to meet th~em out on the street? A.
They asked re and I w4d that I would riather have them call at
the house for I didn't want to stand on any corneais waiting
for any police.
Q. Was there anything said by them that the men around who
kept other houses met them outside and pald thiem, money?
A. No, sIr.
Q. Or did your say that because you were a woman you wanted
'them to come to your house? A.. No, ir.
Q. All you said 'was that. you would rather have theuL come
to your house? A. Yes, sir.
Q Than go otrt on the street? A. Yes, sir
By Senator Brcadleyt
Q.Are you a married woman? W..1wagsnot at that thmE?
Q. Are you a married woman now? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Li-inSg with your husband now? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nicoll.- I hope you will allow me an opportunity to call
C,1)taiL Crosm to the witness stand to-day. He is here now
Pi esent.
Mr. Goff.- Calp'tain Cross was not called as a witness exeept
to produce the records of the police court If we allow every
w it;uess who is present here to be called we will unnecessarily
'be Piking, testimony out of order.
Senator Texow.- I feel that this committee should be guarded
larg(.ly by the suggestions of its own counsel, and while I under.
sta-nd that it may seem a hardship on Captain Cross, yet he will
have every opportunity in the world to contradict or dony 'any




1132


Wfafements affecting him, and th~e public, T am satisflie(, will sna[Velnd judgment ona that subjeet until he is called. I think that
the American people arre prudent, patriotic and wise enough to
szaspeud judgoment in a matter of this kind until both -id-es are
heard. After all, ihie real point is to appeal to the conscience
of this committee. We are not trying this case for the public,
'we a-re trying this case for the purpose of getting a basis for
legislative action.
Senator Cantor.- But the public are 'getting the benefit of it.
1f there is to be a denial it ougrht to go out with the story.
Mr. Goff- If every story that is presented here is to be met
twith a denial we will have to be see-sawing all the time and
-there will be no such thing as a fair statement or denial of
itestlimony.
Chairman Lexow.- The whole thing is with counsel. If co-uneel says that Captain Cross should bec examined now we will
Jaear his testimony.
Mr. Goff.- Captain Cross will have his day in court the same
as other captains. If Captain Cross went on the stand to-hight
I would not cross-examine him, because I am not prepared for it
Chairman Lexow.- I think the public will suspend judgment
amtil they hear all the testimony.
The commnittee adjourned to Tuesday, June- 5, 1894, at 10-:30
IL M.
Proceedings of the twentieth meeting of the committee, Tues/d~ay, June 5, 1894:
Present- Committee all present except Senator Pound.
Counsel on. both sides present, and in addition, Mr. R. R~ Ransom
In connection with Mr. Nicoll.
Mr. Nicoll.- I wish to annumcee to the committee, that inasmuch as the sessions of the committee are to be continuous, or'
during almost of the monthb of June, I am obliged to be absent
in Albany, attending to my duties as a constitutional delegoate
on some days during the month, especialy when the judiciary
comrmittee meets and I have the pleasure of associating with
myself as counsel of the department, ex-Surrogate Ransom and
I now introduce him to the committee, sand bespeak for him tthe
same courteouts treatment tha't I have received at ycuir hands.
William Wiilcocks, called on behalf of the State, being duty
sworn, testified as follows:
By Mr. Goff: 
~.You are a clerg-yman? A.Yes, sir.




1133


Q Your full name, please? A. My name is William Willcocls.
Q. Where do you reside? A. I reside at Plattekill, Ulster
county, New York.
Q. You discharge the functions of your ministry there? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember an occasion of going through Vesey street
some time ago, and seeing a policeman stand in front of a liquor
store? A. Yes, sir.
Q. State as nearly as you can how long ago it is? A. My
impression is it is within the last two months
Q. Where were you going? A. I was going down to the Washb
ington Market, I think it is called.
Q. You came in front of a liquor store; could you tell the
committee what liquor store it was? A. All I can remember
just now is that the liquor store was situated on the south
side of the street between Greenwich and Washington streets;
the name I can not just now remember, but I have a memoranm
dum of the fact at home.
Q. At your home in Ulster county? A. Yes, sir, and as I
reached this place, within about 50 feet of it, I should say, of the
saloon, I noticed an officer standing before the saloon, having
his right hand extended behind him, and as he stood thereQ. Will you illustrate to the committee how you saw the
oflicer standing with his hand behind him? A. He stood this
way (the witness standing up and placing his hand behind him)
and he had his right hand out in this way, and as he stood there
the bartender came out, I learned afterward that he was the
bartender, and he placed in his hand what I took to be —.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What is that- what do you say? A. From fe distanel
that I was, what I took to be a bill, one or more bills and the
officer closed his hand on it, and walked down the street in the
direction of the street south, and then turned south and went to
Washington Market, and the fact was of such an interesting
nature to me that I followed the officer and learned his nanue,
and came back after that to the same saloon where this officer
stood, and learned the name of the bartender, and taking all of
those facts into consideration, I thought it was an illustration
of what I have seen agitated in the papers, as protection money;
in substance, that is whatQ. You made a memorandum of the names and the date and
so forth? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that memorandium is rt your home in Plattekill, Ulster
county? A. Yes, sir.




1134


Q. Xre you going to visit New York again in a short space of
time? A. I expect to, within the next week or so.
Q. If you visit SNew York within a week, will you try and
bring with you that memorandum? A. If it is your desire, I
will do so.
Q. I think it is the desire of the committee; you will bring
that memorandum with you that you made; did you ever see the
officer before? A. No, sir.
Q But you learned his name? A. Yes, sir.
Cross-examined by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. What was the month in which you saw this occurrence?: I would not like to say just now; I have forgotten, but it was
within the last three months.
Q. Are you often in New York? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How often? A I should say on an average once in every
three weeks, at least
Q. Have you church work here, that called you here? A. Yes
sir; I have.
Q. From what you have read in the newspapers, you had a
notion, as a country clergyman, that everything in New York was
corrupt, did you not? A. No, sir.
Q. Or that there was a general corruption among public officials
and police officers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is a belief which exists among countrymen, pretty
generally? A. I would not like to say.
Q. So that when you saw a police officer standing near a
saloon, your preconception, from reading the newspapers, at once
suggested "Protection " in your mind? A. Not altogether.
Q. But it did in part? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you a notion that bribes were paid in broad daylight,
on the highway, to public officers in this city? A. I never
thought of that.
Q This was in broad daylight, was it not? A. Yes, sir; it
was daylight.
Q And the officer stood on the highway? A. The officer stood
on the sidewalk.
Q. That is the highway? A. Excuse me; I did not understand the term.
Q. He stood on the sidewalk, did he? A. Yes, sir.
Q You think, in broad daylight, standing on the sidewalk, a
saloon-keeper was bribing him? A. I would not say that.
Q. That is the impression that you got, was it not? A. I
should say, in words, it was an illustration of bribery.




1135


Q. MAn illustration of what? A An illustration of bribery.
Q. You believe that he was being paid a bribe, do you? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And.you took the pains to look up this record and find ouf
his name?;A Yes, sir.
Q. And you arrived at that in part, from your preconception
about New York things, from what you had read in the new*
papers? A. In part
Q. Do you know a single man on the police force; have you an
acquaintance of a-single officer on the police force?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who? A. Sergeant Bird, of the Central office; I pIesuime
he is there now.
Q. Is that the only one you know out of the 4,000 mn   a o, ie
police force? A- Personally.
Q. And all your impressions in regard to them, bw i  bee
obtained from reading newspapers? A. Largely so.
Q. And what paper? A. Vanrious papers; the Press
Q. The Press and Tibune? A. And the World.
Q. The World and Tribune? A. Mail and Express
Q. Well, that will be enough; you may stop now.
Mr. Goff. —Sergeant-at-Arms, you have Gideon Granger i
charge; please bring him before the committee.
Gideon Granger appeared and took the witness stand.
Mr. Nicoll.- Mr. Chairman, will you listen to a request from
Senator Roeseh, in reference to the testimony that was offered
yesterday?
Chairman Lexow. —We would like to extend to the judge, all
tie courtesies of this committee, but we established a precedent
yesterday that if we should abuse or violate in one case, it migh.
arise like the ghost of Banquo in others.
Mr. Roesch.-If the committee please, as a judicial pfficer ta
this city, and as a former colleague of meambe  of this cor;mittee, I think, in oommon justice to myself, you ought to giye
me the opportunity of being heard in answer to such statement
as were made yesterday, concerning me. I would not interfere
swith the regular order of business, except thathairman Lexow.-We will hear you under oath.
Mr. Roesch.-I mean, under oath. I mean that you shorld
hear me under oath.
Mr. Goff.-As I submitted to the committee yesterday that
it would seriously interfere with the plans and the scope of
the investigation, if every person whose name may be mentioned,
during the course of your investigation, should be allowed to
go on the stand, and either contradict or do whatever they
thought proper-howevier, I regard this as an exceptional case,




13G


conidering that Senator Roesch was at one time an honored
member of the Senate, of which committee is to-day, and also
that he is a judicial officer, I should be very glad to see Senator
Roesch avail himself of the opportunity of the witness chair.
but we have matters of importance on hand to-day, which are
pressing; I would, therefore, suggest to Senator Roesch and the
cdmmittce - to-ddy is Tuesday-that the committee will fix Thursday morning to give way; I shall be delighted to acorod, so far
as I am concerned, with the consent of the committee, that
privilege to Senator Roesch.
Mr. Roesclh —I earnestly protest against this request for this
reason; I held court this morning until half-past 10, and then
adjourned court to come down here. I adjourned court until
12 o'clock. If these statements concerning me are true, I ought
not to be permitted to hold court at all. I want an opportunity
to answer these statements. I do not wish litigants who come
before me, when I am resting under any sluch alleged cloud as
this. It is only in common justice to me that I ask this privilege, and I think Mr. Goff is right, when he says, thab this 5s
not in the usual course of the character of witnesses, who,
perhaps, have thus far been assailed, because of the official posi
tion which I hold, and I would ask Mr. Goff that I be permitted
to take the stand now.
Chairman Lexow.-You must understand that this is not i
trial for the benefit of the public, or for the newspapers, but -
learing for the purpose of getting facts, upon which to base
legislative action. Now, the public ought to suspend judgme,with reference to anybody who is atbtacked here or condemnied
here, until those persons have had an opportunity to be heard
Mr. Roesch.- The committee know very well that I amSenator Saxton. —You are here and have expressed your
desire to testify; there is another witness here that Mr. Goif
desires to examine at present, and I would suggest that you
come to-morrow morning; we are anxious to permit you testify
and while I do not believe that we ought to establish this precedent of permitting witnesses to break in, yet I believe every person whose character is attacked ought to be permitted to testify
before we get through; but would it not do just as well to-morrow morning, under these circumstances, and the fact that yon,arc here, desiring to so testify.
Mr. Roesch.- I think after the statement of the Senator that
I agree with that.
Mr. Goff.-I would suggest Thursday morning instead of
to-morrow morning.




1137
genator Saxton.-Would not to-morrow morning be agreeable
to you?
Mr. Goff.- No; I have got matters out for to-morrow, and it is
only waiting one day, 24 hours loanger, and it had better be Thursday morning.
-Mr. Roesch.- Then I ask that I be placed on the stand at about
11 o'clock Thursday morning.
Senator O'Connor.- This case is not to be a precedent.
Senator Saxton.- We do not want to establish a precedent.
Senator Cantor.- A precedent has already been established.
Mr. Raines was called, and allowed to testify in his behalf.
Mr. Golf.- That was by special permission of counsel and the
committee.
Chairman Lexow.- It is undersvtood that Senator Roesch will
appear on 'ursday morning, and be examined at that time.
Gideon Granger resumed the stand, for fuxrther direct
tion.
fly Mr. Goff:
Q. You have already boea sewma? 'W. Yes, air.
Q. You rememmber the last day that you were on tie stand, thee?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You came to corut (Ibis mornIig in charxge of the sergeant..
at-mIas of this committee, did you not? A. Yes, sir; with Mr.
Burr. 
Q. He is adepuaty of Mr. Schram? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Goff.- I wisJ, gentlerme~nL to read the followlng letter,
which I have received from my friend, Mr. Nicoll.
"New York, May 30, 1894
"foni. Joihn W. Gofif:
"Dear Sir.- In my previous COomMAniniatione, I have told yor
that I did not feel at liberty to advise that any proceedings, for
any purpose, be taken against the witness,0 Granger, while he had
any relation to the Senate Committee, as a witness.
"I now desire to make this suggesticn. Assuming that he is
out of the State, if the witness will retuar, and again take the
stand, no-c-omplaint for any offense will he made against him
while in the State, as a witness, b'y Mr. McClave. So far as Mr.
McClave is concerned, he may safely come into tibe State, appear
before the committuee, be examined anid crcors-examinted, and
depart again without any moilestiation from my client
":I have already said this in puiblic and private, but I repeat
the asurance now, in order that the witness may submit hinm~self to the co~nr~itvtee  immediately, if in fact, which I can hardly
143)




awdrte fear of p vsec ition for past misdeeds has ever deterrod
him from returning.
"I have assummed in this letter, thfuat the witness was withcaot
le. State, biuit if he sihould still be in our jurisdiction, thOUgb.
hiding, my assurance remains the same. He may come and
depart again to any    spot le may    come from, witluat
apprehension.
"Hooping to see you on Thuirdiay, I am,.
"Very truly yours.
"DELAKY INICOLL'
Mr, YicmL- Wili you not uad the prevIous - correspondence?
Mr. GoIL- I do not think that is necessary.  Mr. Niooll had
previously-*writte-n toi me, suggesting that the sup rintenadent of
podice be requested to take such site~ps as he coWid, and of course
it was manifest that the superintendent of police could not take
aiy scpte% without some warrant of law. The superintendent
of police did everything in his power, hut'he haid no warrant of
law to act I will further state, in justice to Mr. McClave, who
-is absent  to-day, to my very great regret, that I would have had
Mr. Granger yesterday, the first day I could have had. him, had
I thongilt that Mr. McClave would have been here; I communicated with Mr. Nilodl, to know if he could be here yesterday, and
Mr. Nicoll informed me, showing me a letter yesterday morning,
that Mr. icClave was still too ill, and I also saw from the public
newspapers, that he was ill, and I regret very much that he is not
here, and the req-nest that Mr. Granger has made, almost as a
part of a conditiou of his retrn to the city, was that' Mr. McClave
should be in court. However the needs and necessities of the
sltuatiion comnzpel me to call Mr. Granger, or to have him here as
ea-Ay as pomible, whicd is to-day.'
Q. After you left the stand on Monday, when you testified,
did you hear Mr.. McOlave say aaytiiing as you passed him? A.
Yes6 sinr
Q. State what you heard him say? A. He said he would have
that scoundrel in State's prison; Mr. Nicoll also said the same
th in g.
Chairman Lexow,-Referring to you? A. Yes, sir; Mr. Nicoll
pointed his finger at me.
By Mr. Goff:
Q When you left the courtroom, were you accor9bed by aWy
gentlemen of the press? A. Yes, sir; Mr. Latshaw, of the World,
I believe.
Q And other men? A. I do not know the gientlemen's names;
I think there was a Mall and Express reporter, three or four of
them; I hnao-w only Mr. Latshaw by name.




'1139k
iQ There were three or four reporters? X- Yes, sir
Q. Did they say anything to you? A. Yes, air; they told me
tiat they had heard what both Mr. Nicoll and Mr. McClave had
said.
Q. About sending you to State's prison? A. Yes, sir; Mr.
Mclilave hammered his hand on the table, and said, "By God,
I will send that scoundrel to State's prison."
Q. Was there anything said about your being sent to State's
prison as soon as this thing was over? A. Yes, sir; he said he
understood now perfectly well that I was under the supervision of the State committee, but as soon as they got through
with me I would not get far from the door before he woald have
me arrested.
By Mr. Ransom:Q. Is that the information that you received from the reporb
ers; is that what you mean? A. No; direct from Mr. MoClave.
Q. You heard Mr. McClave say that? A. I did.
vy Ar. Goff:
Q. After you had left the courthouse, did you notice any men
following you? A. Well, there were quite a number following
me, but I did notl notice anybody specially until after I left the
Elevated at the World office; I went over to take the Elevated at
Park Place, and I turned around two or three times to see if
anybody was following me, and I suspected two or three people
tht were walking down behind me, and I went into Keefe's
salon on Park Place, and I had been there about two minutes
when these two or three people whom I had suspected came in
after me, and that confirmed in my mind that I was being followed, and then I came out and took the Elevated railroad and
went to 250 West Fifty-seventh street, my father's home.
Q. You had an engagement with me that night, had you not?
S- Yes, sir.
Q That engagement was at my house? A. Yes, sir; it was
at your house.
Q Did you keep that engagement? A. Yes, sir; your messenger called at my house for me about half-past 7, I think.
Q. How late did you stay in my house that night? A. Between
12 and half after.
Q. Do you remember the last words you said to me, when you
left my house? A. Yes, sir; I said that I would be at your office
between half-past 9 and 10 oclock the next morning.
Q. Between 9 and 10 o'clock the next morning? A. Yes, sir;
on Tuesday morning.




1140
Q. After you left my house, where did you go? "-  We came
down from One Hundred and Fourth street to a new saloon
there on the corner, and both your messenger and myself went in,
I think; I know we got a drink, and as we were there Captain
Murphy and two other gentlemen came in and stood at the end
of the bar and looked at me, and then Captain Murphy took some
cigars from his pocket and gave each one of these gentlemen a
cigar, and I turned my back on them; I recognized them, but I
did not say anything to the men who was with me; I then went
out and took the Elevated and went into the waiting-room and
waited there until the train came along, and then I got on the
train and went down town as far as Fifty-ninth street, and there
I got out. 
Q. Did my messenger get out with you at that place? A.
No, sir, he did not
Q. He went on down? A. He went on down, yes, sir.
Q. When you got out at Fifty-ninth street, where did you
go? AL I went into McGlynn's, at the corner of Fifty-ninth
street and Ninth avenue; I went in more for the purpose of seeing if I was followed by these people, and I had not been in there
more than five minutes, before I saw Oaptain Murphy and these
two men come in; I waited there three or four minutes, and
then came out and walked down to Fifty-seventh street, to 415
West Fifty-seventh street, my boarding place, and went in and
locked the door; I did not see them going down Fifty-seventh
street.
Q. You then retired, did you? A. Yes, sir; I didn't sleep
much, though; I was all worked up, and nervous over what Mr.
McClave and hils counsel had said here in court; and then being
followed from the World office, or from the courtroom, rilght up
to my home, and then taken from your house, amd followed right
down back to the house again; I felt very much worried.
Q. You got up in the morning, did you? A. Yes, sir; I got up
in the morning.
Q. Feeling pretty well broke up, were you? A. I was broken
up; I got up about half-past 6 and walked up as far as Sixty
fifth street and Columbus avenue; when I came out of the house
in the morning, I saw two people standing directly axcsr in
front of 414. 
By Senator Bradley:'
Q What kind of people, men or women? Z. They were men
who were standing there.
By Mr. Goff:. Did you have a talk with your mother that morning? A:




11411


Ys, ir; I did; when I got hack to the house; but tlicse men,
followed me up as far as Sixty-fifth street, and I turned around
and ciame down, and then I went to -the Rutland and saw father
and mother.
Q. Does your mother reside -there? A. Yes, air; at the Rutland; I saw them, aind they were nervous; they had read in the
pape~s the aecaunt uf what Mr. McClave and Mr. Nicoll had sa4d
in courf, and shne wafs hysterical and did not know what to do~
and I came out and went right over and took the train and went
to Yonkers.
By Senator Bradley,0
Q. Were the men you saw in the morning. the Rame men who
followed you up -the night before? A.. I could not tell you that.
Q. Was Captain Mlurphy with them? A. I think not.
Q. Was Captain Mlurphy with them when -you left the Work1I
efliec? A. No, sir; different people; Captain Murphy I sas
about half-past 11 the first time.
By Chairman Lrexow:
Q. Was he one of the two the nexit morning that you saw,
By Mr. Goff:
Q. You say that your mother was hystierteal; what did you do,
and where did you go? A. I told her that she uced not worry,;,
that she need not be-afraid; that I did not mind or care wh4t
Mr. MoCiave did to me, but I did for them; that I knew, that U.,.
was a liar-x
Mr. Nicoll.- Hold onA I ~object to this conversation.
Q.I do not care what you said about Mr. MNcClave to youia
mobher; just state what you did and where you Went? A. Well,
mother got hysteriA'l, and she did 'not want me to come dcwn
to testify; I then told her thait I had promised Mr. Goff to come
down, and she said, "1If you have done that, you had better g3,"1
and when I went out she threw her axms around me and kisso Ad
nae; and she said she didn't ever expect to see me again; I said,
"Oh0, ye0, she woul~d," and I went down. stairs in the elevator,
aind went right over to Fifty-ninth street, and took the Elevated
train to One Hundred and Fifty-Afth street,, and there took the
10:10 train to Yoikers.
Q.And was it then, that you made up your mind, fi-nally, not
to come down? A. Not to come down~, unless Mr. McClave
would withdraw what he said.
Q. Tell the committee why,, you did not come to curt that
morning; you have stai-edl the st-ep,3 that you took; now, why




1112
did yon not come? A. I did not come -o court because of the
threats that he made, Mr. MeClave and Mr. Nicoll, and I knew
the power that a police commissioner has got, to use every
bit of the department against anybody, to accomplish their own
ends, and, in fact, he has boasted of that
Q. Mr. McClave? A. Yes, sir; endless power; he has boasted of.
Q. What has he said in his boasting? A. He said police commissioners had more power than the president of the United
States had; repeatedly said that.
Q. In other words, you became frightened? A. I was frightened; I should not have left, if I had not been
Q. You remained away for several days, did you.Li4? A
Two weeks ago this morning.
Q. Have you seen Mr. McClave since? A. No, sir; I have ntal
Q. Did you authorize any person to see him? A. I have not.
Q. Did you make any propositions that you would stay away,
if there was any money given to you? A. No, sir; never.
Q. Did you open up any negotiations with him whatever? A.
Not in the least; I never authorized anybody to go and see
him before me, or see anyone, or anybody connected with himn
Q. When did you leave this State? A. Two weeks ago to
morrow.
Q. On Wednesday? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have you been in New York State since two weeks
ago to-morrow, until this morning? A. No, sir; I have aio
Q. You have never put foot upon New York State sodi ari:
this morning? A. No, sir; I have not.
Q. And you came out of another State this morning? A. I did.
Q. In charge of the sergeant-at-arms of this committee, J3(
you? A- Yes, sir.
Q. You opened up comnmunication with me, did you not? AI did.
Q. On your own motion? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you did not disclose to me the place where you
were stopping? A. No, sir.
Q. But I communicated with you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Ani at your request I have seen you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I have told you about the letter that I have read from
Mr. Nicoll this morning? A. Yes, sir; you did.
Q. And also about the protection that the law would confer
upon you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And told you to come here as a witness? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And at my urgent request and at your own desire, you
have come here? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What business were you engaged in when you married




1143


Mr. MCIave's daughter? 2L Produce comisisioner merian4a
at 145 West street.
Q. On your own account-   A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or in anyone's employ? A. No; ona my own account.
Q. You had been a suitor for Miss McOlave's hand for many
months before? A. Two or three years; I think I know them
before they were married.
Q. When were you married, what date? A. We were married
by Dr. Saunders, on December 31, 1887.
Q. Mr. McClave testified here in answer to his counsel, Mr.
Nicoll, "A. Yes; I remember it; on the very day he was married.
Q. What was that transaction? A. He came to me at police
headquarters, on the day that he was married; he had in his
hands some bills of lading, and he said that, very unexpectedly,
certain drafts had been drawn upon him, and he found that he
was a little short in his bank account, and in view of the fact
that he was going off on his wedding trip that night, to be gone
10 or 12 days, he asked me if I would not lend him $500 on his
note for 20 days, indorsed by Mr. Judd, the gentleman he was
with." Do you remember that conversation? A. Yes, sir; it is
not tru e.
Q. Will you state what the transaction was? A. I think it
was on or about the 20th of December, it was right before Christmas, when we had to have some money, Mr. Judd and myself, to
pay some drafts that were drawn against us by E. Aldrich, of
Quincy, Michigan, and I went to Mr. McClave and asked him if
he could loan us any money; he asked me how much, and I told
him, and he said yes, he could on note, and I said, "All right, do
you want an indorser," and he said, "Yes," and I gave him a
note for $500, with Mr. Judd's indorsement on the back of it, and
Mr. Judd made the indorsement.
Q. There has been a suggestion here, if not a direct statement,
at least a charge by counsel, that the indorsement by Mr. Judd
on the back of that note was a forgery; is that true? A. It is
not.
Q. Did you see Mr. Judd write his indorsement on the back of
that note? A. I did see him write it
Q. Mr. MeCCave says that there were $200 paid on that note,
and that no other portion of the note has been paid; will you
explain that transaction? A. The note has been paid in full;
we paid $200 in cash, and we hold his receipt for the balance of
the $300, which was turned over to his daughter, gave to her;
he said I could give it to her.
Q. To your wife? A. Yes, sir; and we hold her receipt for that
Q. Was there ever a demand made upon you or upon Mr. Judd




114A


for payment on that note, after you got the receipt? W. No, sir;
there could not have been, because it was paid.
Q. As to the money being given to you on your wedding day,
on the day that you went on your wedding trip, with that money,
it has been stated and suggested here, that you obtained the
money from your prospective father-in-law on a forged note, for
the purpose of paying your wedding expenses; is that true? A.
No, sir; it is an unmitigated lie; it is not surprising though to
me that he should say it.
Q. Never mind that; you did go on a wedding trip, did you?
A- Yes, sir, we did; not on forged notes, though.
Q. Mr. 3Mclave stated that the note was dated back some
eight or 10 days before your marriage; is that true? A. No, sir;
the note bears the date of the day that we got the money, and
his checks would show the date that he gave the money.
Q. His checks have all been burned? A. That is what he says.
Mr. Goff.-Have you got that note, Mr. Nicoll?
Mr. Nicoll produced note.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. You stated a moment ago that, " He says," referring to the
burning of the checks; do you mean to dispute that statement?
A. Well, I do not dispute it, for I have no grounds to d:spute it on.
Mr. Goff.- We will come to that later, Mr. Chairman.
Q. I hand you this note in question; that note bears what date?
A. December 19th, 1887.
Q. And that was the day on which the money was obtained?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Look at the back of that note; is that Mr. Judd's handwriting? A. That is Mr. Judd's own indorsement; his own signature.
Q. And the money that you received on that note went in to
meet your business engagements? A. Yes, sir; it was all paid
out, the minute that we had it, for those drafts that were in the
bank; they were held until 3 o'clock for us, some $700; I think
the draft was for this one particM!lar draft.
Q. Mr. c3:feClave tetifed hlere, tlat you admitted to him, that
you forged that endorsement; is that true? A. No, sir; it is
not.
Q. Did you ever admilt to him anything wrong at all, about
that endorsement? A. No, Sir; I never did.
ia not.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Does Mr. Judd claim that thi endorsemenft is a forgery?
A. I do not think that he does -




1145


Senator Saxtcn- Where does this note come from?
Mr. Goff.-It comes from Mr. McClave's pcsession. It was
in his possession.
Mr. Nicoll.-Mr. Tuidd was in court here, aid I offered to put
him on the stand. 
Mr. Goff.- I do not know that you offered to put him on the
stand, but you offered to state what he said, and I objected to
your stating what he said, unless he is put on the stand.
Senator O'Oonnor.-Ask him why'Mr. MeClave did nlot suren-,
der thls note at the time that the witness claimed a receipt was
given for the money.
Q. Why did not Mr. McOlave surrender the note, when the
money was paid, as you claim? A. He said he wonud destroy
the note, or that he had given it to my wife at the time; I supposed she had it; I did not know that the note was in existence,
until it came up in the paper; I supposed it had been destroyed.
By Senator Saxton:t
Q. You say  rtt he gave this notte to your wife? K. That 
what he said; he gave the balance cf the note, $300, that was
not paid on tlhis note to, my wife.;
Q. Then do yon smay your wife receipted for that $300 to you?
A. Yes, sir; we hold her receipt for it.
Q. You have not the receipt, have you0? A. No; Mr. Jud'd has
it in his office at 92 Park Place.!:
By Senator Cantor:
Q. It can be obtained, can it?  I I h  sai
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. In whose handwriting is the body of that note? X. In t
hadwriting of our bookkeeper, Mr. W. P. Dixon.. Do you know Mr. Judd'j signature? A. Yes, sir; that is hi.
Q. Have you got any other of Mr. Juddas signatures? A. No,
sir; I have not; but I can easily get them.
Q. Wlas this note written out and signed, ia the presetnce of
the bookkeeper? A Yes, sir; that is my aignat're on the note.
By Senator O'Tonnor:
Q. Did Mr. Judd endorse it in the presence o the bookkeeper?. Yes, ir. 
Q. What is the bookkeeper's name? A. W. P. Dixn.
Q. Do you know where he is? A. I think he is with Harring
ton & Oompany, at the foot of Sixtieth street lad North river.
L.       144




0      J146


By Mr. Goff:
Q. About your exnpenses for youra wedding tritp; wfho paid tlhos
expenses? A. I did.
Q. Out of your own pocket? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And yourr oWn money? A. My own money,, that I msde.
By Senator Bradley:
Q Mone~y that you. eauied?  ~. Yes, sir; omewy d~at I earned
By Mr Geff:
Q. Is Mr. MieOlaveas statemenit, Vtat he paid yoawr expenses, for
your wedding trip, true or false? A. Not a wotdd ot truth, in it;
not the least shadow of it.
Q. You have in your pr'evious tes'tmony testified abouit the
apointnment of Ooorper from. that plaice in New Jenrey? A.
Wb-Aitehoiuse, New Jersey.
W. We do not want to go overT tbat ground again; thait testiuwny is on record; how long did you rea inn the produce
business? A. Until October, 1889.
Q. That was nearly two years after your marriage, was it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You lived with Mr. McClave? A. Yes, sir.
Q. A member of his household?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why did you -not keep house for yourself after your mai'.
riage? A. Both Mr. and Mrs. McClave did not want my wife
to leave the house; she did all the housework there; she was
the housekeeper;, had the hiring and discharging of the help,
and took general charge of the house; Mrs, MoOlave had told
her that she wanted her to do it, she being the eldest daughter
%tt that time, and that is why we stayed.
Q. Did you make any request to go housekeeping or express
army desire? A. Yes, sir; I have asked mj  wife to go housekeeping; I wanted to go, and once I even went so far as to
pay a deposit for a flat, and the next day I went back and got
the deposit back again.
Q. And the reason that you stayed is, bec-ause her parents
did not want her to leave? A. Yes, sir; every time that we
talked about going housekeeping, Mrs. Mcalave and Mr. McClave
both objected to it.
Q. Duwing the two years, or Wamost two yetars, from the time
you were married, until you left the produce butsiness, did you
pay anything toward your board, or support,.in that house?
A. I hardly think that I paid any board; I gave my wife $10
a week for herself, for spending money, and whenever she wanted




11417
a~nythng, that her father and mo1~ber did not give her I would
always give lier the money for it
Q.Were you ever asked for any board? A. No, air; I offend
it once, and Mrs. Mc.Clave s-aid, " No; to give it to my wife
for herself."
Q. After you left the produce 'business, what business did you
enter? A. 'Me post-office.
Q.Mr. McClave has testified that you went into the moneyv
order department? A.. I did not; -never in it
Q. He reotnmmeuded you? A. Yes, sir.            I
Q. Was it In- the general post-office? A. TNo, sir; It was the
stacp cl-erk in P. 0. Station F, on Third avenue, between
Twenty-ninth and Twenty-eighth streets.
Q. Who is the superintendent or officer in charge? A. A. 
Q.Before you went to the post-office -I will refer to Mr.
M1clave's testimony here; he sa~ys; the question is by Mr. Nicofi,
"How long was it after he had married your da-ughter before
you discovered what manner of man he was; that you subsequently found him out to be? A. Well, about a month, I should
think, after their marriage, my daugifer had received at the
time of her marriage, a very large number of gifts in, the way
of silverware, and one thing and another, quite valuable; she
bad placed them in trunks, and taken them down and_ put them
in -the Garfield Safe Deposit Vaults, Twenty-third street and
Sixth avenue; after they had been there for some time, she went
down one day for the purpose of getting somnethhrg out of them,
and when she gut there, she found the trunk was gone; she
camne and Void me about it, and I went there, and found that
Granger bad signed a receipt for them, and taken them away;
when he camne homre that. night, I questioned him about it; he
-told mue be had taken them down: to Simpson's pawn shop and
pawned them for $i300; I gave him the money to go, down and
get them;~ and put them baick, and they are now in the Garfield
Safe Depoult Vault;" is that true? A. Nco, sir.
Q.Is any part of it true? A.. No, sir -well, the part I's true,
in connection with taking them out from the Gaaifield Safe
Deposit vaults; I did that, but my wife knew of it at the time,
and I took them, and I told her I took them; I took theme and
put them in 'our own bank, which was the North River -Bank, at
the corner of Dey and Greenwich street; Mr. Judd's account
was theme, and put them in the'safe deposit vault down there,
and, on that receipt, I raised $500 on them to pay for a western
trip, traveling for poultry; how it was that Mr. Mc~lave in that,
Speaks about my wife going- down to get some silver; it was




1148


not that; Mrs. McClave was giving a tea party one night, and she
wanted to get some silver, and without asking my wife, she went
down to get some silver.
Q. To the North River Bank? A. No, to the Garfield Safe
Deposit Vaults, and that is how Mr. McClave knew of it; my
wife knew all about it; that did not happen until the October
after I was married.
Q. He said that you pawned them in Simpson's pawn shop; is
that true? A. Not the least bit of it; nothing about it at all.
Q. Did you ever pawn an article given to your wife upon your
marriage or any of the wedding presents in Simpson's pawn-shop
or any other pawn-shop? A. No, sir; I never did.
Q. You say you did raise the money on the receipt to pay for a
western trip? A. I did, in a perfectly legitimate way.
Q. What was that western trip? A. I was going out drumming up the calf and poultry trade, dressed real, out through
the west, and I went as far as Illinois.
Q. And you say you did that with your wife's knowledge? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Speaking about these wedding presents, your wife did
receive a large number of wedding presents, did she? A. A great
number of them; yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what proportion of them came from members
of the police department? A. The biggest majority of them,
that is, that came from her people.
Q. I mean from officials in the police department? A. Yes, sir.
the majority of them came from city officials in the police department.
Q We now come ba   to thoe post-office; you went in there; what
was your salary? A. Nine hundred dollars when I first started;
I left the produce business because the odor from the calves and
poultry that would impregnate my clothing was so distasteful
to the McClaves, that he wanted me to go out of the business;
he said that he would get me a position in the post-office, or at
the custom house, if I would leave, the produce business, and
that was the reason I left, because the odor of the veal and so
forth was not agreeable to them.
Q. That was the reason then, that you left? A. Yes, sir; dis
tasteful to the house.
Q. Had you the handling of any money in the post-office?
Nothing, only stamp money.
Q. Mr. McClave says in his testimony, speaking of this postoffice appointment, that he was appointed to a position in the
post-office on Third avenue, and placed in charge of what is
known as the money-order branch; is that true? A. No, sir.




11a49


Q He says, "According to his own testimony, his own confession, signed over his own signature, after he had been in the
post-office for four or five weeks, it was discovered he had stolen
several hundred dollars. According to his own confession, he
commenced to break open the mail within 20 minutes after he
had been put into the office, and stole $20 the first day; and the
inspector of the post-office finally discovered it, and the only
reason why they could not convict him was because they could
not do it upon his own confession, there being no other testimony
against him." Is that true? A. No, sir.
Q. Is any part of it true? A. No, sir; not the least it n the
world.
Q. Were you ever brought before any post-efice  fcasl to
answer for any defalcation? A. No, sir.
Q. Was there ever a charge made against you of opening a
money-order letter, or a letter containing a money-order? A. No,
sir; there was no direct charge; there was talk of it aroaid election time that fall.
Q. Had you the handling of letters containing mowey acders?
AL No, sir; not the least bit.
Senator O'Oonnor.-In connection with the staterenn t ot Mr.
McClave, as the only reason why he was not persecuted,,.eause
there was Lo corroborative evidence; I would ask if there is aoything in the Urfted States law to that effect?
Mr. Goff.-Nothing whatever; he could lie Con.ved1 hMa  s
own confession.
Mr. Nicoll.-Do you have any doubt about the fwt that ihe
made this confession that he opeaed regSiteed lete or lr  rs
having money orders —
Mr. Goff.-It is a question of doubt
Mr. Nicoll.- I think in view of the fact that I have guaranteed
a safe convoy of this witness while in the State, and that he is
here without danger from any source, 'the committee ought to be
careful not to permit him to lood the record with perjury.
M. Goff.-That iemark is anjust and Improper before this
committee.
Chairman Lexow.-We can not assume that it is perjury.
Mr. Goff. —Does the record or the demeanor of Mr. McClave
indicate that he is perfectly free from perjury? 
Chairman Lexow.-Neither counsel should sum up now; we
will take the testimony as it is offered.
Mr. Goff.-T have not cast a reflection by one word upon the
testimony of Mir. McClave in this case.
Senator Saxton.- These are matters that Mr. McClave testified to and you are now calling the witnesses's attention  t thenm




11BGw


*Mr. GoV!.- Yes.
Senator O'Connor..-I asked a question that any lawyer mnight
asli, if it required corroboration, under the United Stlates laws,
where there was a confession, to convict, which of course, it did
-not.
Q.He says here that you signed a written confeo-Wlon, oven
your awn signature, that you opened a letter and stole a pesta1ffic"~ mor-_yv 3rader for t'-7enty dollars out of that letter; is thalet
true? AL. No, sir; if I did, where is the confession?
Q.Yes, where is the writing? A. Where is the writing?
(Yharinin Lkiowi- You say it in not true? A. Not the lead'
bit of it.
By -Mr. Gqff:
Q.. There was some tvaa tdton in connection wit the stamps
In that department, about wvhich there was Fome trouble? A.
Yes, sir - no, there was no trouble; there was trouble maAde I~t
the dine, but there was no trouble in the post-office abouat it
Q. You resigned your position, lid you not? A. Yes, air; I
resigneid My position.
Q.And you resigned it ut thie request or ziidvice of- Mr. McQlave?
Q.Did you ever heaa of Mtr. -AlzCave or any other person -i:
that time say that any cTiminal charge was about to be broughl
against you,4 or thretatened to be made against you? A. No, sfir
Q.State what the trouble was, if trouble it was, -regarding the
stamps? A. In every post-office, or every post-office station, and
the city, the superintendent of that station is responsible to the
postoffice for the stamps used at that station.
Q. To what extent? A.. One thousand dollars, we had to
carr~y; that is wh~.it the postmaster required at, thiat station, and
Mlr. Dickenson and all the superintendents had to furnish those
stamps with thetr own money; they buy stamps from the postoffice.
Q. You mean they buy stamips from the generWa post-office?
A.. Yes, sir; then the stamp clerk, which I was, is responsible
to Mr~. Diokenson, not at all to the postofce and there was
a discrepancy In the s-tamnp account there, of $84, and in that
$84, there was $75 of it borrowed money, borrowed by myself,
with Mr. Dicikensori's, consent.
Q. How did you come to borrocw that money? A. I borrowed
It for a wedding present for my wife.
Q. A wedding present? A. No; a Olhristmlas present.




1151
~. Where dd-i t1('(y Tbly hl tCbhrAimba  presentf?  A jf e 131ac
Starr & Froas
Q. What was the article? A. A diAmnd pin —an owl pin~
with diamond eye.
Q. Did you buy anything else? A. N% sir; it was just for
that; I might have 'bought some nick-uacks with it for the
children; I don't knorwr whether I did or nort
Q. Did you buy it in the presence of Mr. Dickemson? A. Yes,
sir; Mr. Dickeneon and myself were in there together, and F
told him I would like it, but I didn't bave, bat I could not
afford to buy it at present, because I did not have the money,
and he said, You can take the money fron me, and when you
get your salary, you can pay it.
Q. Did you give bim any note or anytlhing? A. I just gave
him an L 0. U, and signed my name to it.
Q. Where did you put that? A. I put it in the stamp drawer;
I gave it to him, and he put it in the stamp drawer; it was ik
the stamp drawer, so we could balance on it
Q When did the matter become known; or any trouble about
it arise? A. The finrst trouble that I heard about it was the
day that Mr. Morgan of the post-office came up there, and told
Mr. Dickenson. that he had a pretty Nig De morat in there and
Mr. Dicakenson asked him who it was, and Mr. Morgan says,
this Granger; they say he is going around shouting over.thi
election; this was at the time tlhe Democrats carried all the
Congressmen,; he says, "We don't want that kind of talk;" when
McClave came to me and asked me if it was true, and I told
him that I might have been, elated over the fact that the Demo"
orals had been victorious, and he told me that I had better
keep my mouth shut in the post-office; it was three weeks after
that, that this charge of taking money fOm   the stamp drawer
was made against me.
Q. Who made the charge? A. I think Mr. Morgan -yes, Mr.
Morgan, there was no charge to be made,, because Mr. Dickenson
went right down to the post-office and saw Mr. Morgan and
saw Mr. Wood, and they sent for Mr. McOlavie, and Mr. McClave
asked me if I had taken any money from the staimp drawer,
and I told him, "No; only on Mr. Dickenson's authority;" and
he said, "iWell, you had better resign," which I did do,; I wrote
my resignation on the posb-office paper, and had a notice from
the post-office, I think, some three or four months after that,
that there was a balance of salary due me there of some thirty
odd dollars, and to come down and get it, and I went dowm
and got it, and there was nothing said.
QO When you went and got yoar balanoe ot salrTy, did oiyoae




1152'


say you h aid done anything wrong or did they make any charge
or claim ag(,ainst you? A.. I\T% sir; I never knew there wvas a
charge ag nst me for stealing registered letters until I heard
Mr. M4cClave's testimony.
Q. Did Mr. Van Oott know you personally? A. I do not
think I haxe ever spoken a word to the man in my life.
Q. Did the post-office auThorities, the officials, know you? A.
Mr. Morwgan and Mr. Wood and M r. Diek-ensoa were about the
only ones that I had any dealings with at all.
Q. After you left the post-office, what employment did you
go into? A. I was at Bloomingdale, Brothers for about six
weeks.
Q. How did you go intt Bloomingrdale Brothers? A. I went
in there thrmugh a friend of mine who is their superintendent
Q. How long did you remai nM in Bloomingd-ale's?  A. I was
there abount six weeks.
Q. Did you leave Blooming'dale's of your own accord? A.
Yes, gir - no; Mr. McClave wanted. me to, go into th-e Whuite
Yankee Manufactu iAng Oomipany.
Q. Well, did you leave Bloomningdale'L of your own aceord? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. What caused you te, leave Blooamingdale's? A. Because
Mr. McClave wanted me to go into. the White Yankee Manuf acturing Compiany.
Q. Was that a cenipany organized by Mr. McClave? A. Yes,
sir; that was organized, by hbim.
Q. A cer1Aificaute was produced here in Court with your signature upon it as one of the ineorporators; is that the coniptany
that you have refeirence to? A. Yes, slir; I tlhink kso; it was the
oinly company that I was ever in in, wihIc Mr. MoClave had anything to do.
Q. And Mr. MeClave's soms were connected with it, were they?
A. Yes, sir; they were.
Q. There were five persons? -'A. Yes, sir; Mr. MeClave and
Steve McClave and John Mc~lave, Albert McClave and myself.
Q. Whatever capital was put uwp in that comptany, was put up
by Mr. MbC~lave, was itt not?  A. Yes, sir; all of it was, $7,500.
Q. You did not putt nip any capital, did you? A. No, sir.
Q. Yon had not any, haid you? A. No, sir.
Q. Burt you say it was at Mr. McClave's inducement or insistence thaty yo left Bloomingdale Brothers?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do in thisi White Yamnkee Manufacturing ('oCompany?  A. I was appodnted secretary of it and I did more selling
than anyThitg el-se; I was The only salesman theiy head.
Q. Did you receive a salary? A. Yes, sair.




1153


Q.How mwuh? A. Fifteen do~llats
Q. Fifteen dollars a week? A.. Yes, air.,
Q. From the company? A. Ye. rAr.
Mr. Nicolt- What was the daite of this, Mr. Gof?
Mr. GoL- I will get the date.,
Q. Cma you give us about the date ot the coinmpany, when f~
started in business? A.- I think it was along in the early part
of Mardi; I know it waus just before Mr. McClave took his trip tao
By NW MkOM
Q. ]In 1892? A.. Yes, sitr; I think it was o~n or about that tUma6
Q. Youi left -the po'st-office in 1891? A. Februaq, 6,189 1, 
thhnk.                                              -
By Mr. Goff:
Q.After the poet-office l~mcdent, Mr. MeClave ma~s hI anawer
a question by Mr. Niooll:
"And you took the young nmap back to your hcue? A. Yes,
"And you made another effort to reclaim him thoen after' that?
A. Yes, sir.
"1Anad the reason you did it wtus on your daughtberb account
and the chiblidren's accorunt? A. On her aocoiunt, and the child,
ren 's account and on the family's aoccount, andl his own acsoqmmt,
-because I did think a goiod deal of him, notwithstanding his way"
I wishi he could be rede-emed to-day far his own sake; nob~odU,
would be more yloased than I would."
Q.Was thiere any tarible hin thec family. ov-er the poist-offels
-incident? A. No, iskr.
Q. Had you left the house a~t that point A.. Mr, Mic~iave house
Q. Had you left, the house at that time? A., ir. m~o~lve~
house?
Q. Yes. A. No, sir.
Q. Was IMy wtleubeat alhIn hoehu?          ANo, not't,the. least.
Q. go, when he safys he took you back, did he take you back?
A.T never went out to come -back.
Q. Hre Says here that he thought so much of you, inhis
ende-avor to reclaim you -I aim giving the substance, but not
the exact wo-rds - thiat he set you up in business; is that trume?
A.. I do not k-now what busine' s it was.
Q. Let 'us see; how l Ong were you in the White Yankee
Manufacturing Company? A. I was in it until he called it 
hospital, and said he could not have it run, any more.
L.       14.5




3i54


Q. Mr. Mcklave said so? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He said he was lo.4ng money? A. Losing all tat he had
put in it
Q. What did he do with Bte business then.? A. THe turned it
over to me, in consideration of $1, and said, "See if you can
do anything with it."
Q The busir.'ss had been losing mioney? A. It had not parid
a cent; it even had nort paid for the printing of the paper.
Q. How long a period of time were youi engaged in it? A. How
long was I engaged in it?
Q. How long was the company? A. From the incorporatim
of the (counpan~y, until about the 1st of October following.
Q. About how many nboa1thA. That is pxettj nearly seveaueight mouth&
By Ohairmrnan Leiwowi
A- bout eitdh muwtWi?   k A e,, sYr,
By Mr (off:
Q He says,     What did you do; please tell us? A. T put
him into businem; I started a cmpvany with the understanding
with him, that if he would give me some evidence of his diesire
to try and do what was right, that I would turn it orver to
1dm for himself; after I had kept him there for five or six months
under a salary, he seerned as if he was showing a disposition
to reform, and I turned the entire business over to h im and
made a bill of sale to 'him for the consideration of a dollar;"
now, was it from the impression of your desire to reform, or
from the fact that the 'business had not paid, that he turned
the business over to ygou and set you up in business? A. It
was because the business had not paid a cent, that he turned
It orver to me, and said, "See what you can do with ii?By Chairman bexow:
Q. And you said it was worthless at the time; that all the
nomney had been lost?  A.Yes, sr.; there was notdhingto it atailL
By Mr. Goff:
Q Was there anything coming to you at that tfrnie?
Mr. Ransom.- Dos hie mean to say that Mr. McClave told
1him that he turned the business'over to him in wmaideration1
of a dollar, because it was not paying or that it was a worthless
business - the testimony of the witness seens to convey that
idea.




I
IL155


Mr. Goff.-. Ie did say that Mr. Mcolave said it was a WMo
aud that he jPould not owntiuue it any, longer.
By Senator Sauton:
Did he saty anythUing to you about yout r ht Esrest in N
cIrnueeloim with. turning it over? A. No% air; he just said, "Y4
take hold Otf it Gid, and see what. you ean do."
By Mr. Goff,
Q. Was there any fault foinmd with youat tlatt t A7.? K No
sir; ho said that I head sold nmre stuff than any of them, and
tihat was very little.
Q. It was your brothers-in-law and. yourself that were runminin
the business for him? A. Yes; and a nephew by marriage of
bid, a Mr. Harris, who lives in Newark.
Q. So it was within the famify? A. Yes; the family circle.
Q. Up to that time, had there arisen any trouble in the houiw
hold at all with you or about you? A. No, sir.
Q. Was there ever any request mae by him or suggestim
made by him, that you leave his house for any ill-doing? A.
No, sir; never.
Q. And you went horne every evenng and sat at the table with
him and dined with your wife and your father-in-law and otber
members of the family, at all the meals? A. Yes, sir; I did.
Q. Pleasant intercourse with them, was there? A. Talked al
the time that we were at the table.
Q. There was pleasant relations between you? A. Yes, sin
Q. And you called himfather, did you not? A. I did.
Senator O'Connor.- Have you asked him or will youas hiD
about that mortgage?
Mr. Goff.- I will come to that, Senator.
Q. When he says he turned the place over to you for a 4a~oh
that is true, is it not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You had no money to buy it, had you? A. Not the least bft,
not a dollar - I must have had a dollar.
Q. He says, "He had not been' in the place alone but I gmwai
about one week when I found out afterwards that he had mort.
gaged all the machinery in my building." Did you mortgage
that machinery? A. Did I mortgage his machinery?
Q. Yes. A. No, sir.
Q. No, I won't say his machinery; did you mortgage &to
mnchinery? A.. I put a chattel mortgage on two of my owa
machines.




L156
IBy Chairman Lexow:
Q. Of this White Yankee Manufacturing Company? A. Yes,
sir; when I took the company it was saddled down with some
advertising contracts; there was one with Carroll & Company
for $63 a month, and that I assumed when I took this company.
Q. And there was one with the Manhattan Elevated Railway
Oompany? A. Yes, sir.
Q. For how much a month? A. I think we paid every three
months, something like $190.
Q. And you assumed those contracts? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you took that company, were there any debts due t3e
company that you collected? A. No, sir.
Q. There was no business done to create debts? A. No, ir;
there was not.
Q. Was there any money in the treasury? A. No, sir; I do
not think there was.
Q. What did you get when the company was turned over to
you for its assets; what did it consist of at that time? A. The
two machines and the implements to make this White Yankee
window clener, two office desls, three or four chairs, and ten
or fifteen thousand tin boxes, and there might have been some of
the ingredients that they made the White Yankee powder of.
Q. Some boxes for the purpose of containing the stuff manufactured? A. Yes, sir; the White Yankee window cleaner.
Q. What was this White Yankee window cleaner? A. It was
made up into a paste which would turn to powder-it was
made up in a powder which would turn to a paste when wet.
Q. These were small tin boxes? A. Small triangular tin boxes.
Q. Was that all the property you received in the company?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there a bank account kept especially for this company?
AL Yes, sir; while it was going there was.
Q. That is while Mr. McClave kept it? A. Yes, sir; while he
ws with it
Q. After he turned it over to you, what disposition was made,
If any, of any momey or bank account had in the name of that
company? A. If there was any money left, I tlhink Mr. McClave
took it back again.
Q. Did you get any of the money? A. I did not get it; no, sir.
Q. About this mortgage, you say you did put a chattel mortgage on it? A. Yes, sir; for $175 or $200, I do not remember
which.
Q. That was after Mr. McClave turned it over to you? A. A
month or so afterwards.




W.Wiieui you say on -yiur machines, It wa on e mac'lne
that were turned over to you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You regarded and considered them as your property, did
you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you did rai~e a mortgage on those two machines? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. For wlrht purpose? A. Th pay off these contracta
Q. These advertbing contracts that were saddled upon you
when you assume'd the company? A. Those and one or two other
small bills; there was a ibll for the Western Union iessenge&
sixvice for distribuijing circniars, that amounted to' thirteen or
fourteen dollars.
Q. Did Mr. MPfcClave ever pay $1 oat on acicount, of that company
or for any of its indebtedne-iss or contracts, after he tuh~rned the
business over tol yoft? A. No, sir- yes; he paid that mortgage
for me; he paid back that mortgage.
Q. He took up the mortgage for youl  A. Yes, sir; he took up
the mortgage.
Q. But the money you say that you iah,;e-d by that mortgagee,
wtvs for the pa'yment of these sunis of inbedtedness that you have
mentioned? A. Yes$ sir.
Q. How long did you continue there? A. I worked al it right 
along up to the Gth of last July; I had a goad many things to
do; I had other popx~etry articles that I manfufactured besidles
the White Yankee window cleaner; I made a furniture oil and
briass polishingrr maiterial and Ironing wax and I openbed in connneetioin with it, a horuse-cieanitng bureau, to see if I could not
pull the thdng together and make something out of it, but It did
not seem to go.
q.. And iso the whkle thing was a dead loft? A. Yes, sir; and
th1en I went to Elirich Brothlers.
Q. After you went to Ehrich Brothers' store? A. Yes, sir.
Mir. MoClave says:
"Q. How long did he remain hi EibAch'e? A. I think he wup
there altogtther three or folur molntIhs.
"Q. Was he diseLiarged from there? A. Yes, sir.
"Q. On what account? A. Stealing cloaks aind other th& ngw.
"Q. And o-ther things? A. Yes, sir.
"And pawning them? A. Pawning them, yes, sir."
the Senators will see the habit of Mr. Nicoll, i testifybg
for the witness as he goes ailong"C Q. Now, Mr. Molave, did he confess that to you; he told yon
about It, didn't he? A. Mr. Ehrich caine to me about him an-d
told me where the goods were locatced, a p1wtn shop on Sixth
avl'e-nue, and asked if I would try and get them bav —k, saying he




1153


wouili pay mie cost o~f thie money that had been loaned uic-o them.
" Q. Did you? A. No, sir; I did ntot do anything about it"
Q. Isthat true, o~ramy part of it? A. No, six; Ileft Ehrichl's
myself, of my own free will, on the 2d day of February.
Q. He says that you pawned cloaks; had yuu -any opporfwunit
to steal cloiaks in Elirich, Brotliers'?. A. No, sir; I was not i ri
the cloak departm-bent, in fact, I was not on the floor cif- the elo,.W
department and I do not be-Ueve Mr. Ehi-1ch ever toll 2I-.c~lavet
t~hat either.
Q. Is that Mr. Ehirich~ a member of the finn? A- Yes, sir; tli,'
senior member.
Q. Did you ever pawn ant artiale of any kind or desccipdlouiA
whatever, belongaing to Messrs. Ehrich Brothers? A. N%,) ali,;
I dfid not.
Q~Did you ever take aIuytklk~g? A.. Nc% -Ao,
By Chairman Lexow:
Q~Do you maean that story is entirely Uur, Lmmn bog&teLY-4
to end? A. About stealing cloaks?
Q. About takidng cloaks, and pawning -them? A. Yes, Imir.
Q. Or any other article? A. Yes, sir; while In Ehrick4 frut
EUnich Brothers or pawning amy artice Ira, ThrieWh&
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. And no such charge was ever made aubtjd          A  F
such charge directly.
Q. Well, or indirecty? A. Not to~ m  knzwwkdgs
By Senator (YConniotr:
Q. To your. 1mowledge, was Q~ere evrww 
my 'knowledge, iuevwr.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Did you ever Itear, beore MeCaVe tifgied, that yt'u had
been charged with stealing cloaks from Ehric~h Brother and
pawning them? A. Yes, sip; I heaird that about a week and
a half after the divorce proeeedings against mie were started.
Q. Before the divorce proceedings against you were started,
did you ever hear a word about it? A. Not a word; not a word.
Q. There has been somnethbing said here whilch I can not puit
my finger on now, that you forged a letter f rom Mkessrs Eliricb
BrotbAers on your leavinMg there; is that so? A. No, sir; it is njot.
Q. Did you ever receive a letter from them? A. I did'- I
received a letter from S. W. Ehrich, himself, daitied February 2d,
and copied in his book, too.




!


xL159
IQ. Where tI that lef<er? A. I1 was tf!ereI iWen I left 
weeks ago to-day; I left it at te Rutland ap-artment-boue with
my mother.
Q You reOaved that lette from Mr. Ehbrii, signed by Sam
Enriclh? A. Yes, sir; with his signature to it
Q You know Ibis writing, do you? A. Yes, sir; this was a
type-written letter.
Q. Written om the firm paper?. Yes, i it; written on the
Mfi  paper.
Q. How was the signature? A. It was all right
Q. Was it in writing? A. It was a written signature.
Q. What was fe siignature?    A. S. W. Ehich, signed in
writing by him.
Q. You say there is a copy of it in is lettearbooi? A. Yes, sir;
the letter was xpies; the letter was mailed to me at 124 West
Seventy-eocond street
Q. Is tat letter in the nature of any charge or accusation
against you? A. No, sir.
Mr. Ransom.-I think we ought to have that letter if it is
In existeiae
Mr. Goff.-If we can get it, we will produce it.
The Witess. —  Mr. MoClave himself has seen the leffie
Chairman Lexow. —It would be better to prodce the letter,
Mr. Goff, if you can
Mr. Goff,-I will put a general question; did tihe letter contain any charge or accusation against you of hbving done anything wrong in IEhrich's?
(Objected to)
A. No sir.
Br TChairiman IoLWv
Q. Did you have any conveaHoon with Mr. MdClave In referw
eaoe to it? A. I showed him the letter when he acused me of
being unfaithful to my wife.
Senator O'Connor.-Did he testify that he forged that lettert
Mr. Goff- Yes
Senator Saxton.-Did Mr. MoClave say that it contained a
charge against the witness?
The Witness —It did not contain any charge;
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did you have any conversafion with Mr. Mcflave alFou itt
A:  Only as I say there.
Q. What did he say about the letter? A. When I left New




1160
York, 62 weeks ago to-day, I took all the letters out of my pocket
and gave them to my mother, every one, and Mr. Jerome also saw
the letter.
Mr. Ransom.-No doubt she has the letter and it shall be
produced.
Q You have not seen them since? A. No, sAr I have not bee
ta New York since
By Mr. Goff:
Q. You say that Mr. Jerome saw the lette f   Yes, sit Mr.
Jerome saw the letter.
Q. Did you ever see Mr. Ehric sinW? A. Yam, siri one or
twice —since I left, you mean.
Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir; once or twimea
Q. Did he ever charge you with having stolen anything fromn
his store? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you meet him socially? A. I bowed to him; that is
about all, but he asked me one day if I had placed myself, and I
said yes.
Q. Where did you go after leaving Ehrich's? A. To Smith,
Gray & Company, at the corner of Broadway and Thirty-first
street.
Q. That is near Ehrich's store, is it-state to the committee
where Ehrich's store is,? A. Ehrich's store is on Sixth avenue,
between Twenty-second and Twenty-third streets, and Smith,
Gray & Company is at the corner of Broadway and Thirty-first
street, where Vogel Brothers used to be.
By Chairman Lexows
And you were there wlie y       were sbmpoenaed? X Yes,
air.
Q. Employed by them? A Yef, sir; by Smith, Gray & Co.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. When you went to Smifl & Gray, did they ask you for any
reference? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you give them a reference? A. Yes, sir; I gave them
Ehrich Brothers.
Q. You gave them Ehrich Brothers as reference? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were employed by them? A. I was employed by
Smith, Gray & Co.; yes, sir.
Q. And you were in their employ when you testified here last
In court? A. Yes, sir.




1U61
Q And so far as you know, you would have been In their
employ still if you had not left the city? A. Yes, sir; I suppose so.
Q. Messrs. Smith, Gray & Co. knew, who you were? A. Yes,
sir; they knew who I was.
Q. Knew the family you were connected with? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And for whom you had worked before? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they employed you on your statement? A. Yes, sir; I
gave them my reference and told them who I was, some two or
three weeks before they employed me, and then I had a letter
telling me to report for work the following Monday, which, I
think, was April 23d or 24th.
Mr. Ransom.-I think it is proper that I should say something
about the criticism of Mr. Goff, parenthetically, in the ourse of
his examination. I wish to call the committee's attention to the
testimony given by Mr. Goff, persistently and constantly, and
also in the last minute, and if there is any objection to Mr.
N1icoll's testifying that Mr. Goff referred to a while ago, I think
the same rule should be applied to the testimony that Mr. Goff
is now giving.
Senator Saxton.- Both sides have done the same thing  I
think.
Senator O'Connor.-Yes, but It is harmless
Q. What wages did you receive at Snmtii & Gra's? X   I
received $J5 a weer.
Q What position did you occupy there? A. I had chad. of
the shirts.
Q. As salesman? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember attending a reoeption at the house of
Mr. Judd? A. No; Mr. Budd.
Q. Yes; Budd, I should say? A. Yes, sir.
Q. WVlere is Mr. Budd's ho.use? A. I can not tell the number,
but it is in West Eighty-sixth street, between the Park and
Columbus avenue; I think it is about 56, or somewhere around
in that neigboirhood.
Q. Who attended that reception with you? A. There was Mr.
McClave and Mrs. MoClave, my wife at thit tine and myself,
and Mr. and Mrs Higgins.
Q. That is his son and daughter? A. His other son-inlaw
and daughter.
Q. Do you remember anything  ing been said by Mr. McClave
or any person in his presencie that evening, about the appointment of the Senate committee?
Chairman Lexow. —Fix tihe date of that when it was, if you
can?1
1. U146




1162
A. It was the latter part of January, sometime
Q. January of this year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. It was January of this year, as nearly as you can recollect?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you hear anything, at that time, about the appointment of the Senatorial Investigating Committee? A. The night
of this reception, Mr. and Mrs. McClave and my wife and I rode
up there in the same carriage together, and going up, Mr. McClave
was quite nervous, and Mrs. McClave turned to him, and said,
"Why, Johnnie, what is the matter with you;" and he says,
"Oh, nothing, nothing;" and she says, "Oh, yes; there is; it is
that police investigation business; I would not worry over that;"
and he said, "I don't see why it is those hayseed politicians
up in Albany want to come down here and bother us honest men."
Q. Mr. McClave testified here that he did not recollect saying
anything of the kind, or saying anything about the investigating
cormmittee? A. Probably he was so nervous that he didn't think
of it
Mr. Nicoll.-I move to strike that out
CTaimnan Lexow.-Yes; strke it out
Mr. Goff.-I do not object; it is stricken out bby consent
Q. Did you remain long at the reception that night? A.
No, sir; we were only there, I think, about half an hour, may
be an hour, and Mrs McClave then came to my wife, and said,
"Papa was getting so nervous at the noise and bustle around
here that we would go down to Delmonicos; so Mr. and Mrs.
McClave and myself and wife went in the same carriage down
to Delmonicos, and Mr. and Mrs. Higgins followed shorty after
in a cab.
Q. Did ywo hate refresibmeal  there at Delnonicos? A. Yes,
sir; we had.
Q. Up to that time, abott the latter end of January; waa
that the first that you heard about the appointment of this
committee? A. I thin'k it was on or about that time that I
first heard of it.
Q. Up to that time, was there any trouble whatever in Mr.
Mclave's family respecting you? A. No, sir.
Q. Or between you and the family? A. No, sir; we were all
right; never on more pleasaant relations with him in my life
thai I was thea.
By Chaimia Lexow:
QO That was the end of January or the beginning of February?
A. No; it was not the beginning of February; it was the latter
part of Jamuary; I am positive of that, because it was on te




11063
2d daly of ~Pe1k'uairy thast he accused me of these charges the-t
I refer to, in -regard to this person at Eh]ricbh's stove, and it wa.
under that date that I had this letter from  Mr. Ehri~clh.
Q. Do you remember whether the resolution was passed to
Investigate the police departments, or whether it had actrally
been appointed under the resolution? A. Thait I could not tell;'
because I never at that time expected to be here before the comu
Rit-te.
By Mr. Goff:
Q so it was not until the 2d of Februnry thbat you heard any
accusations made ag unst you, whi ha! ve been made, since? A.
Yees, sir.
Q. Up to the 2d of February everything was hla0rmni"oRis  A.'
Yes, sir.
Q. And peaceable and quiet? A. Yes sir.
Mr. NicalL-. And always had been?
Mr. Goff.- One moment; I will shape my questlons ffo 'sult
myself.
Q. Had, you ever been requested or instructed by Mr. McClave
to leave the house? A. No, sir.
Q. Up to the 2d of February? A. No, sir; up to the 22d of
February.
Q. Up to the 22d of February, that is, Washingtown s btrthday?
A. Yes, air.
Q. Mr. McClave said here:   "Meantime" - speaking about
your time in Elrich Brothers - "Meantime, I fomnd out positively that he was going with a very low class of prostitutes,
and demeaning himself worse than ever, and my daughter conmenced proceedings against him for a divorce. Q. And your
daughter commenced proceedings against him; yes, sir; on statutory grounds."
Q. When did you first hear of any charge agvinst you by MrI
McClave or arn-r member of his family agaimst yon for consoirting
with prostitutes? A. On the night of the 1st of February, 1894..
Q. On the night of the 1st of February, you say? A. Yes, sir..
Q. That Is in relation to the date of the 2d, that you mentionewl a wh'le ago? A. Y'es, sir.
Q. Was that after this occasion when you rode with him In
the carriage to the reception, at Mr. Budd's, and afterwards went
down 10 ')elmoriCO's?  A Yes, sir
Q. How many. days after, as nearly as you can recollect? A.
A very short while; I hardly think a we-ek.
Q. What took place between yourself and Mr. McClave, when
you first heard about your consorting with prrostitutes?  A. On




11G4


that night, I took home two tickets to the theatre, and as I
entered the dining room about seven o'clock, the usual hour of
my getting home, I threw the tickets over to my wife, and said,
'There are a couple of seats to-night you go upstairs and get
ready so we won't be late;" I iad not finished my dinner.
Q. For what theatre were the tickets? A. The Bijou theatre;
Tom Daly's company, I think; and Mr. McClave looked up from
the table and said to his daughter that he wanted to speak to
her a moment before she went upstairs; she said all right, and
walked in the front parlor; I started to go up as soon as I
finished my dinner, and Mr. McClave said, "I would like to see
you, Gid, in the front parlor," I said all right, and he followed
in, and he said to his daughter, "Where are tho'se tickets?" she
said, "Here they are," and showed them to him, and then he
turned to me ajd he said, "Where were you on the night of January 23d; you didn't go to Philadelphia;" I said, "I know it; I
went to a prize fight;" he said, "You are a liar, you were with a
whore;" I said "Thank you, I was not;" that was in the presence
of his daughter; then he says, " You go upstairs," calling me some
names; I went upstairs and he came up there, and his daughter
started crying and one thing and another.
Q. When you say hAs daughter, you mean your wife? A. Yes,
sir; and finally he came down and I thought everything was
peaceable again; I never dreamed of having the thing come up
again.
Q. What became of the tickets for the theatre? A. I don't
know; I never got them; Mr. and Mrs. McClave went out that
night —I don't know whether they used them or not.
Q. v'as that the first time you ever heard a word said to
you by Mr. McClave or any one in his presence about consorting
with prostitutes? A. Yes, sir; that is the first time he ever
accused me of it, and he has often gone so far as to say to me
that he knew I would never go with women, because I was
never out of the house nights.
Q. He had;aid that to you, had he? A. Yes, sir; innumerable
times.
Q. What was your habit regarding your time in the evenings;
you say you never went out of the house at night? A. Yes, sir;
auring the sik years that I was married; I do not think that I
was out of the house later than 10 o'clock at night five times
without my wife- 10 times would be in~ excess.
Q. How old were you when you were married? A. Twentythree
Q. About this Philadelphia incident, you were in Ehrich's at
that time, were you not, at the time you said you went to Philai
delphia? A. Yes, sir.




Q.  d M  ave told you that o  leor itwas ne
AQ. SA<d Mr. McClave told you that you led or it'was untrue
that you had gone to Philadelphia? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was true, was it not? A. I did lie; I did not go to
Philadelphia.
Q. You did tell an untruth; you said you went to Philadelphia?
A. That was the excuse that I gave at the house; I made that
excuse to my wife. 
Q. To your wife at home? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were away that night? A. I was away all night.
Q. Where did you go that night? A. I went to a prize-fight.
Q. Where? A. Well, on, Staten Island.
Q. Who were the fighters? A. A fellow by the name of Osa
frey and Greer.
Q. Did you know either of them? A. Yes, sir
Q. Whicih of them? A. Caffrey.
Q. Did you know Caffrey? A. I bet on him.
Q. Did you know him before? A. Yes, sir; I have known him
quite often.
Q. Did he ever work for you or in connection with your busi
ness? A. Yes, sir; he used to be a truck-driver.
Q. For you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you were in the produce business? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you took an interest in his fistic encounters, did you?
A. Yesa sir.
Q. And you had such an interest in him that you bet-yoa
money on him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. May I ask you who won or lost? A. The police stopped
it and it didn't finish.
Q. Well, that was on Staten Island? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was for that purpose that you told the falsehood to
you wife, that you were going.to Philadelphia? A. Yes, sir; I
never, even when my brother was married up in Canandaigua,
my wife would not let me go to the wedding; she insisted,n my
staying home, until I went down and told Mr. McClave that I
thought it was my duty to go to my brother's wedding, and finally
he went up stairs and said he thought it was, too, and I would
have to go, and then my wife would not let me go to my
aunt's funeral in Boston; I was never away from hIer.
Q You were always in the house? A. Yes, sir; and Sundays
I was nurse girl.                    ^- * 
By Senator Bradleyi
Q. lou were a nurse girl on Surn.ays?  2 Yes, sir; at'onu
it was a pleasant occu;pation.... ---..-..




1106. Yon have three hildren? A. Ye, sir.
Q. Of course, very much attached to your children? X. Yee
'*r; and still am.
Q. Did Mr. McClave say anything to you about the identity of
lhe prostitute that you were with? A. Well, yes; he did, but it
was sich a - so far drawn, there was no truth in it at all, not the
least bit that I would not like to mention the p:eran's name,
because she is perfectly respectable, and there was nothing doM
that was a detriment either to her or myself.
Q After your faffter-in-law made this accusation agaiint you,
on tie night of thfe 1st of Feb iary, did you  Otiiue in the
house? A. Yes, sir; oh, yes; I stayed there in the house up
until Wabhingtons birthdaiy.
Q. In the meantmle you sat at the table as usual? A. Sat
at the table, broke bread and ate his salt
Q. Broke bread and ate salt as usual? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you occupied the same room and bed with your wife
as sua;? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There was no difference in your relations between yourself
and wife? A. There was, of course, after her father accused
me of that, bat it was ony- well, not for a week.
Q. There was a little coldness? A. There was a oldnew at
irst, but it wore off; it was all right afteward.
Q. And you continued in your marital relations with your wife
tn the homue, up to what date? A. Up to half-past 12 of the
lad day of February, 1894.
Q. Did you hear anythin  about this charge against you in
Oe meantime? A. No, sir; I thIought it was all ouer, because
it wa sauch an absurd thing to do.
Q. Did Mr. McClave speak to you in the meAaitme?. Yes,
*i; he did.
Q. Every day? A. Well, yes; every day.
Q Was there aryrthig said aborut it by himi to you in the
Meantime? A. 1No rr; tiha i whb I hoalith it was all over
Q. Was there anytinrg said in the family about it? A. Not in
my hearing; not to me, bjy my wife or by him
Q. You went home every night as usual? A. Yes, si
Q, And went to your place of bausines in the mnomig as
usual? A. Yes, sir; although I was not working after that
Q. You wene not working then? A. No, sir; it was the next
morning that I reigned from E hrich's, after he charged me
dlown stairs with being with this woman at tbrich's
Q. You resiwl fm Elrich'? A. Yes, sir; on the 2d day of
7eburwary_.




1167
Q. The day after you were charged by your father-in-law? Ax
iYes, sir; the day after that
Q. Did you know or hear or have amy knowledge whatever
That any proceeding for a divorce were contemplated against
you, from'the lst of February until the 22d of February? A.
No, sir; I did not; I had not tie least idea of it, not the fainte
By Cbainmin Lexow:
Q. Were the papers served on that date? A. Nq Air; tsqa
were not served on me until the 18th of Marcbh
By Mr. Goff:
Q. On the 22d of Februar, Waahingbons birthday, do you
remember what took place? A. I went down to the Rutland in
the morring about half-past 9, I guess it was, to see mother;
she had been sick; had a nervous headache, and I went down
to see her, and, after staying a little while, turned around and
went back home, and I stopped at a toy store and bought some
pictuirebooks for the children, and went back to the house and
started to go in as usual and got up as far as the second flight
and Mr. McClave was talking in the telephone, and he looked
up, and said, "r want to see you down stairs," and the children
ran out, and I said, "Here are some picturebooks that I proimo
ised you, and I will be up in a little while and show you the
pictures;" then I went down stairs in the parlor and waited
for him to omne down; he came down and walked to the front
door and opened it, and he called me, and said, "There is the
door, and I never want to see your face in this house again;" I
asked him what for, and he said, " That is what for; you go now;"
and he was very much excited-he gets excited easily and
quickly, and I saw there was no arguing or talking with him,
but I wanted to know what it was for, and I turned around
and left, and I went down to the Rutland and told father and
mother about it, and they thought it was —
Q. Never mind what they thought; is that the only tranys
action or conversation had between Mr. McClave and yourself
relating to the charges against you of infidelity after the first
coniersatioi on the 1st of February? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that the only charge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the only convesnation that took paie bettween yo ii
reference to that charge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You left everything behind you there? A. Yes, sir; everything, I did not have anything except the clothes on my bak that
I had that day, my overcoat and whatever I had on.




*


1168
r Q. Did you get amtiang from the MlJave Mhouse after that
any of your personal effects? A. I got all my clothing, and a
few knkck knacks that were laiing aroud; I didn't get the letters and papers and books tiht I sest for, I have written and
wli.ttten for them and Mr. Jtrme wrote for the annd finally 
found that my wife had burned up all tile letters amd papes ad
private books
Q. Have yoe ever seen yuar wife since? A Not to speak to
bher.
Q. Or your chilt e    A. N1  sirp. When were te papers in the divorce suit served upon you?.L 'Ie 13th of lSUa4c 1894.
Q. From the time yom left on the 22d of February urtU the
13th of Mamch, did yon have my oommunineatioa with your wife
or Mr. Mclave? A. Yesa sir; I asked mother bo go up to my
wife amd se what the trouble was; she did go uip and then my
wife told her; she saIJ  "Papa tel3l me that Gid is gpin
aronid "-. Mr. NiodL-We do not want what she saL
li-e Witness — That it how I knew
By Senator Saxtu
Q. Did you ever make any effort to go anJ see hr yourselft A.
Fes, sir; tie very day that I was turnmd away fwram the house
I went back and iang the bell and they would not let me in; I
Vwhn went down afteawards to see (harles F. Wells at No. 20
Nassa street and he advised me to write a letter and I wrote it
and sent it by a mssenger and it was refused at the door; I sent
Ib up twice and it was refused and finly Mr. McOlaae came down
and told he mesenger by thiat he didn't want him to bring any
more letters there, and then I went bac to Mr. WelU, aad he
mid she is bound to get tat letter, you bad better seedI it by a
eiestered letter, so I sent It asa uegfteed lettrf and the receipt
signed wich I gaLt
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Did you receive any rery from bler?  a. 3T  si.
Q. Did you reeeive any reply later, any letter? A. I have only
had two letters aft all from her, since le 22d of February; you
could not call them letters, they were more notes than letters;
one was in conneetion, or at tihe time tart Judge McAdam granted
me leave to see my hbfldren before they went away to the coartry
and throiih Mr. McClave's courtesy, he wanted me to see them
at the foot ot Eleventh avenue and Twenty-second street



1169
Q. Down on, a dock there? A. On some dock down there
among the Italians, and I wrote and told her, rather thma to
meet ly childre in suich a place, I would waive the order to
see them. 
Q. Yon world waive tie ght that the court gave you of seeing
your children? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Sooner than to bring them to such a place as Mr. Mcelave
had suggested? A. Yes, sir; and in reply to that, I got a letter
from her saying that she thought I worid do that, and that I
could see the children when she saw fit to let me see them; tat
is about fiie size ot i
(Recesa)
Afternoon session, June 5, 189.
Present- Senators and counsel as before. 
Gideon Granger, called as a witness for the State being dil
sworn, testifies as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Goff 
Q. After the action for divorce was commenced against yo,
you were aware of the fact that you were charged with going to
the Ashland House ia company with a woman; weren't yot Ai
Yes, sir; one of the charges was that
Q One of the charges? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was the other charge? A. Going to a hotel
known as the Holborne, at 43 West Twenty-fourth street.
Q. Were you acquainted with the proprietor of the Ashland
House, Mr. Parker? A. Yes, sir; have been very well for four
or five years.
Q. Were you in the habit of frequenting the Ashland Houle
restaurant? A. Yes; during the time I was at the post-office I
was there at the restaurant every morning of my life.
Q. So you were well known in the hotel? A. Yes.
Senator O'Oonnor.- Is this for the purpose of clearing the impnu
tation on the witness notwithstanding the adverse proceeding.
Mr. Goff. —Not particularly. We do not wish to lighten the
judgment, nevertheless it lead up to something else, matters I
think of importance in connection with the adverse witness, and
in connection with the relations this witness had to Mr. McClave,
and the relations that were the outcome of the trouble between
them before the appointment of this committee.
Senator O'Connor. —You are not going to proceed to prove
animus on the part of this witness by showing that McClave by
obtaining the divorce against him in favor of his daughter Iy
147


I




1170
wrong methods- that he showed animus? Do y~oti seek to go
into these proceedings at all.
Mr. Goff.- Not to any extent. I propose to show that- the regis'
ter of the Ashland House, which purports to contain the handwriting of this witness, that that registeir was taken away by
Police Inspector Williams, and could not be reached; and furtlier, that this house called the ilolborne he was acc used of -being
ini war) raided immediately and the register of that house taken
away&
S3enator O'Connor.- All right.
Mr. Ransoma.- Mr. Chairman, may I say a word about this?
senator O'Connor, it seems to me, has struck the key-note of the
whole situation. The whole morning has been spaut, perhazp,
withb reasonable consumption of time, public and private, in
giving, this witness; an opiortunity to haabfilitate hiinsedf. He has
joit himself really upon tidial, and with the assistance of M~r. Goff,
who has testified for him a great deal, he has at this timne
undoubted-ly satisfied himself that he stands now before thi
comrmunity a respectable mana, whatever may be the cpinion of
the committee or of the public in that regard. It has seemed
to us that time enough hiais been spent on that poi-nt, that thbe
committiee has given him great latitude for the purpose of prov.'
img. if hie could, out of his own mouth, with the assistance of hI-us
counse,0 that he is a respectable man. Now do yenu propese tbo
go seriously into the tria of this adverse action.
Senat~xr O'Cosnnor.- This is a different trial. Now thre atbempt
at pro-of I'S directed to this fac-t that- certain police officials in this
City lent- their porwers to aid Commissioner McClave to secure
or in avoiding testinfony that might be adduced before the proceedings.
Mr. Rtsasom.- There is no objections to tfhat, Mr. Chairan,
at all. I d~o not rise to object to that; but in the nau~re of tbhings
on the introduction of this subject by Mr. G-off it seems to me that
this witness could have no personaal kniowledege upon any su-ch
suibject. It is -not pretended that he 'knows that Inspector
Williams, or anybody, took this register away from the hotel.
The intmxkictkmn of that subject satisfies rae Uilat the witness
Is expected simply to testify to some hearsay upon that point.
It is really for the purpose, I assume, of ha-v~ng him farther testify to his respectability personally and his inmxcerrce 'of this
charge.
Mr. Goff.- This morning all hJA testimony hoas been to eontreadt Mr. Mic~lave.
gmnator O'Connor.- Mohst of! It.
Mr. Golf.- My learned friend, if he had been in munrt w'hen Mr.
Ki1coll was~ when Mr. Me~lave stood up -and off and- on denounced




1171
this wtness in puMiAb  I do not thrn  Mr. IaThdm! wIa d.i iave ftie
temerity to stand up and object to is oTffeing explanation.
Mr. Ra1 om. —I think we have spent time eamogh on that
subject.
Mr. Goff. —The judge, when he wa- on the bench, was noted a0
an expedtitor   officer, and he brings his expedition into this
place; and we have not the high and vital power to get up the
steam. that the judge has
Senator O'Connor. —You had better go on or yon will get up
enough steam.
Mr. Nicoll.- I do not know whether the committee is aware
of the fact that this defendant put in an answer to the fdiorce
suit, and had his day in court, aad withdrew  hie answer before
the hearing of the court, and the evidence was taken and a decree
rendered.
Mr. Goff.-Oh, no; he did not withdraw the answer. 
Mr. Nicoll.- That is his writing here saying he withdrew hia
ainswer.
Mr. Goft.-Do you want to try the judgment of record  ''. '
Senator O'Connor.-I think these things Mr. Goff proposes bt
prove now, which he has submitted to the committee, It is faSi
to Mr. McClave that it should be dione —iat the witneas
Granger, had an annimus; that s  i, Mclave has by the powe
of the police department, if he has the power to strike back, ft
would furnish the complete animus to do it; It is entifrely fair t
Mr. McOlave, I think.
Mr. Goff.- It is shnpy on these poants, that is all; on that question I respect the decree of the Supreme Cort, as we all must
I do not propose to do it That is a matter Mr. Granger wi
biave to do himself in court if he wishes to do it.
Q. Now, Mr. Granger did you go to the Ashlamid House afte
you became aware by the written complaint served on you of fte
charge against you of having gone to that house in company wih
a dissolute woman? A. Yes. 
Q. Who did you see there?   AL I saw the chief clerk, Mr.
Fhimey, and Mr. Brockway, the proprietor of the hotel.
Q. Were you acquainted with each of those gentlemea? 2L
I know them very well. 
Q. And have for some time? A. Four or five yearma  '
Q. Did you seek to get access to the register? *A' Yes, t 
Q. Did you see the register? A. No, sir.
Q. Where was it? A. Mr. Brockway said ---           -
Mr. Nicoll.- One moment; will the committee permit Afi?
The Chairmar- Yes; if Mr. Brockway stated it was not theret




1172


By Mr. Goff:
Q. Mr. Brockway, the prolprietor of the hotel, the person
charged with the custody of that register; what did Mr. Brockway say in reference to the register? A. Said Inpectbr WUHams came there anird took it 
Q. The inspector had gone there and taken it? A. Yes; or
had loaned it to Inspector Williamis.
Mr. Nicoll.- Objected to; that ought not to be allowed; it is a
terrible thing to have a scandal in this fabialy bruited out
Mr. McClave was the first one to bruit it out.
The Chairman.- Captain Williams' name might be omitted
from the record; the simple fact that it was taken away might
be admitted and thait is enough.
Mr. Goff.-I Think the person who took tliait register away
with Mr. McClave in his poaition of a high police official should
stand on the record.
The Chairman.-Can we show that to Mr. Brock-way?
The Witness.- Mr. Mason was with me at the time he told me.
Q. One of your attorneys? A. Yes.
Q. Did you go to the Holburn? A. Ye-.
Q. What did you learn ihere?  A. M1r. Shultz, the man whe.
has charge of it, told me that the register had been plaeed in
the Garfield Safe Deposit vaults.
Q. Was there anything there about the raid of the blouse? A.
Well, the house was raided, I think, a week or so before t1hat
Q. Befoxe that? A. Before that; yes, sw.
By Senator Saxtow
Q. What do you mean; before yoa wefst there? X5 Yes, frj
before I was there; yes, Mir.
By the COharman:
Q.Before yoauwere there TnM sdewfch Ofthe Vo6*?   T'dtd
not see the book; the 'book was gone.
Q. It had been raided about a week before jyj  went in search
of the book? A. Yes, eAr,
By Mr. Goff:
Q. About when did you go in search of the book? Ak. Abovt
the 14th of March; the day after the paiper was served upon me.
Q. The day after the paper was served upon you? A. Yes, si.
Q. Mr. MeClave testified that, during your married life, you
had given to your wife, his daughter, not more than the sum of
$150 during the six years of your married life; what have you




1173


to say to that? AX Not so; there is not a word of tthn in iit
Mr. MoClave himself gave my wife the bank-book, the safe
deposit bank-book with $273 in, himself.
Q. Yes, but what did you give? A. Give her; that was my
ban-k-book that he sent on to Boston to collect for me; I gave my
power to attorney to collect it for me.
Q. Money that was left to you? A. Money that was left in the
bank by Mrs. Robert 0. Winthrop, of Boston, my aunt; I gave
Mr. McClave the power to collect that through this bank and gave
that to my wife; I have given her upwards of over $3,000 of money
that I can account for myself, and money I can account.for and
trifling thin gs of two, three and four dollars when she asked me
for it; I gave it to her; that is exclusive of any Christmas
presents or knick-knacks or trinkets that Mr. McCave has
referred to.
Q. You were in the habit of accompanying Mr. McClave and his
family every summer to their summer place? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember the year 1890; where were you? A2 Black
Rock, Conn.
Q. Whereerere you in 1891? A. Let's see; I think we were
there then, too; last year we were at Portchester and the year
before that we were at Long Branch and we were tire then.
Q. Eighteen hundred and ninety-one? A. Eightee hndred
and ninety-one.
Q. And in 1892 where were you? A. Long Branch.
Q. In 1893? A. Portchester.
Q. And that is where Mr. McClave's new bose is? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were with the family the summer they were down to
Manhasstt? A. We did not stop there but a very short time;
the summer that we were at Manhbssett we were living at open
house on Seventy-second street, 156; It was too long a distance for
Mr. McClave to go and come every day and so that had the
cottage at Long Branch and the house open in town.
Q. I speak of the cottage down on Long Island? A. That i the
Manhassett; I was down there thwee or four weeks during the
summer.
Q. Were you there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you rememnter that if during that summer Williams' yacht
was there? A. Yes, sir; Captain Williams loaned Mclave, for
the use of his boys, his yacht; I think they took a cruise of some.
thing like 10 days or two weeks.
Q. THow many men were in the crew? Al For or five.
Q. Four or five men; do you know the dimensions of that yacht?
A. No, sir; I could not tell you the dimensions; it was a sloop
boat, about 50 some odd feet long; not over thqAt; I do not think.
Q Her name was the Eleanor? A. Eleanor; yes, sfr.




1174. Now you spoke at your last examination about reeeiving
money from men who sought appointments on the police force?
A. Yes, sir.
Q You said you gave money to some other persons besides Mr.
McClave in reference to these appointments? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In reference to these appointments, you mentioned the name
of a man named Kelly? A. Yes, sir.
Q To whom you gave money? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that the man (pointing to Mr. O'Kelly)?  L That is the
man
Q. Did you indentify that man? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Goff.-That is the witness that was on the stand, Mr.
Chairman, the other day.
The Witness.- That is the Mr. Kelley I had reference to,
although I do not know he kept a shoe store.
Q That is the man; there is no doubt about it A. Yea; that
is the man; yes, sir.
Mr. Goff.- Take a seat, Mr. Kelly.
Mr. Nicoll.- Don't intimidate the witness.
Mr. Goff.- By asking him to take a seat?
Mr. Nicoll. In that tone of voice.
Q. State the circumstances of giving this man Kelly the
money?
Mr. Nicoll.-We have been all over that.
Q. I will withdraw that question; where, first, did you see
Kelly? A I think the first place I met him was in Masterson's
saloon, corner of Fifty-sixth street and Eighth avenue.
Q Have a conversation with him? A. I don't know that I
did at that time, but I have seen him frequently in there, and
also at other places on the avenue.
Q Did you have a conversation with him at the time you gave
him money? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that conversation? A. Well, the money was
paid to me, and I gave it to him, and I said, "I understand you
are the go-between here; I don't want to give this money direct
to anyone;" and he said, "You have come to the proper person,"
or words to that effect; I don't recollect what the conversation
was, but that was the substance of it.
Q. Was there anything further said about your becoming a
rich man? A. No; he made a remark one time that the way
I was making appointments of men my father-in-law would be
rich; he made a remark the way I was making appointments was
giving money, that my father-in-law would be a rich man, or substantially to that effect.. I hand you a memorandum book and dairy that was shown




1175


to you on your pr'evious examination, and ask you to I -Lat
the names that you identified there - before I state to the cornnittee that you have any corrections or alteration's to make?
A. No; I have no alterations to make.
Q. How about that man's name with the 500 opposite it  A.
Coleman, you mean?
Q. I don't know what name? A. The roundsnan?
Q Yes; yes; what about that item and payment? A. Well
he paid $200, first - $200 or $300; I do not know which it wasfirst, and the balance of the money he said he could not pay until
he heard from his father, I think, in Sullivan county, if I am not*
nistalien; I know he was a fanner, and he would get the baao-me
of the money from him; and I took what he had, for I do not
know whether I gave it direct to Mr. McClave or not.
Q. Did you keep any other memorandum book, and the one
now in the hands of the Senators? A. Yes~, sir; I did.
The Chairman.-Where is the entry of Coleman?
senator O'Connor.- There it is, there (indicating).
Mr. Goff.-With those names.
The Witness.;- There is a written entry up there. MLiat top
part is a memorandum of something else; that is in two parts;
uappo ed to be.
Chairman Lexow.-You had better have that entri admitted:upon the record here.'
Mr.t- Goff.- YeaS
Ole Witnes&a- Yes; I kept anmTher meovorandinni d ouO!
BY Mr. G'off:
Q I wish yogi would read out for bSw stenlograaphier and for the
Wnminttee tie names of peIaouie you paId to.
Mr. Nicoll.- We have been aill over ft onm pages 1209, 1210 and
121i
The Chairman.-Wkat I suggest is he dkiioaite to the steiaog
raphier here, the precise Inenmoatanld-m as it apnyarm on the book.
As I recollect the testimony themr wos only three individuals
testifled to by hhn, and there are seven or eighlit on one page there.
Mr. GME-Now pleaseL read ofT those names that you h cave
ftere? A. TAttle, O250; Bumns, $280; Cohen, $175; Cahil, $250;
Meehan,, $370; Farnswortb, $390; Colemian, $500, and Mead, $250.
Q What is that last naxae? A. Mead.
Q. Now, did you keep any memrnadumn there touching Col0.
main? A. Here isthe -
Is that it? A. Yes; -here Is Coleum
Q. Read off that memo-raugdum rek-Viag to Oolemanr? A. "Had
an intervisw with Coleman; amrnged for his owotwiou for $600
aind to be put up in two parts&"




By nethe iiarni i
6 UBAt mean s  $0    A.Yeq air.
Q. Md  t~he fgurB tlati you read witfh irenejto the o
io faoMs mean doicsg  A. Dollarxs; yea si.
By Mnc Gaxff
Q. Now ywm   a   yot'kpt t  anoer memorauKnm bodr-ok? 
Yes, air; I did.
Q Wlhere is that memorandum book? A. The last time I saw
it it was with a prage of letters of mine, and the lot of privatbe
papers at Mir. McOave's ihose; I sent for it four or five times and
they say it is burned.
Q. Had you a list of names in that memorandum book? A. I
had everything in that that I ever done at all for the police
departmneat, or that I ever in any way ihad ever been offered; lots
of times I was offered things thart I didn~t do.
Q. You were offered thigs in relation to prowrin ing appIointments? A. Yes. 
Q. That is, yom became pretty generally known as Commisiovner McOlave's soniin-lawt? A. Yes, sir; I was known as that
pretty well.!
Q. Ould you say how many policemen you received money from
or appllkants, rather that you received money from for appointment on the police forc during the six years you resided with
Commisiionier McClave? A. Oh, anywiheres from 15 to 25.
Q. And in receiving money frm this nnumber 15 or 25, oouid
yon way wlether or not you gave it all in eajh cawe to Mr.
Mc{lave? A. No sir; I did not
Q. Did you keep some yourself? A. -ome with his knowledge;
I did not give all this to Mr. McCl;ave directly myself.
Q. To whom dMd yo give it in addition to, Mr. McClave? A
Some I gave to liRchars, and some to Kelly and some I gave to
Mr. McIIave.
Q. Some to RidMards; that it the orderly as yon call him? A.
Ye. sir.                   I
Q. Some to ts Kelly? AL Yes.
Q. And some to Mr. MoClave himself? A. Yes, sir.
Q. DId Mr. M3cavTeerv   say anything fo ywo in relatfot to t
direct tranactions between himsalf arid you-rself touching those
matters? A. It was never wise for me to give money direct to
anybody; that I know tht -
Q. Did -he say that? A. Yes, sir; he said it was a very unwise
thng to be n writing or to be seen givirng money to anyone.
Q Did he say anything about the wisdom or the necessity of




1177


their having a thild party or a go-between? A. No; I do not
think he said that in particular.
Q. I call your attention specificallyThe Chairman. —Just ask the witness, Mr. Goff, how may
times he gave money to Mr. McClave, and in what sums,
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Can you state, Mr. Granger, how many times you gare
money to Mr. McClave, directly  A. Half a dozen.
Q. Half a dozen?
By the Chairman:
Q. That is, money for promotions T. They are for appohte
ments; half a dozen; may be more and may be less.
The Chairman.- Let him specify them as near as he can.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Do you remember the cases where you gave the mon  to
Mr. McClave, the names of the men, or the eases?  A. Well, tht
Cohen is one; that is more vivid in my mind than anyone ele i
now.
Q. Cohen? A. Yes, sir; Cohen.
Q. There was a letter read here in court that you had written
to McClave about Cohen? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He was the man that was working, truckman for you, or for
the firm with which you were connected? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you remember any others? A. Well, I think there was
a man by the name of Bradley, if I am not mistaken-not the
Senator.
Q. Well? A. Well, the memoranda you have there are the
ones that are more specific in regard to those.
Q. Well, these-  A. Not this, but the other one.
Q. I call your attention here, take, for instance, the caa of
George Ronk? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember that? A. Yes, sir; that was not a pro
motion, nor that was not an appointment
Q. What was it? A. He was the one that got in trouble with
ex-Mayor Hewitt' son at the Madison Square Theater; he
arrested him, or something, I have forgotten what it was, but I
know Mayor Hewitt was mayor at the time, and charges were
preferred against him, I think by Commissioner McClave, and it
was a breakable charge.
Q. A charge that would break him if proven? A. A charge
that would break him if proven; I don't know that it waa
L.       148




1178
McClave Thia preferred charges, but I am of tie Impression that
it was; he was in the Nineteenth precinct at that time, Ronk was,
and he came to me about it, and I had known him quite well;
he came to me about it, and I told him I would see what I could
do for him; he said it would be worth a month's salary to do it.
Q. What did he ask you to do? A. He told me to save him.
Q. Did he ask you to see anyone to save him? A. Well, that
was understood; my father was the only one to see; the only one
I had to see, and I saw him, and father said he would do what
ie could for him, and did not think the officer was guilty, anyway, or something like that.
Q. Just wait a moment; well, proceed; Ronk asked you to save
him? A. Yes, Mr. McClave spoke to me two or three times
about him; and the trial, I think, was postponed once or twice,
on account of having it brought before Mr. McClave, or having
it brought before a full board, I don't recall the whole instance
Bow; anyway, there was $100 put up for it, and he was then
fined 10 or 15 days, I don't know which, and transferred to the
Twenty-fourth precinct, where he now is, or was, the last I knew.
Q. He put up $100? A. Ronk gave me $100 gold certificate.
Q. Where did he give it to you? A. Gave It to me in the
vestibule of 124 West Seventy-second street.
Q. Mr. McClave's house? A. Yes.
Q. What did you do with the one hundred dollar bill? X I
gave it to Mr. MoClave himself.
Q. How shortly after you received it fromn Ionk? A. The next
morning.
Q. What did he do with it?- A. I don't know.
Q. But you gave it into his hand? A. Yes.
Q. TDid Ronk give you anything else? A. Yes; he gave me a
wild fox.
Q. 'Where is the fox? A. It is now up —
Q. Whlere was it then? A. It was at his home.
Q. At Ronk's house? A. Yes, sir; he lived at Fifty-sixth sfreeit
the St James Flats, Fifty-sixth street and Eighth avenue.
Q. What did he say to you about that in addition to the $100?
A. When he gave me the $100, he said I have a fox down there,
too, that would be good for the children fo play with; I got the
fox a day or two after that; I stopped when I was down town
and brought it up lo the house.
Q. You brought it to Mr. McClave's house? A One night, I
put it in the backyard and it tore up lace curtains and one thing
and another.
Q. Had the fox to leave on that account? A. I took it away
on that account; I took him down to Gus Muller's cigar store on
Columbus avenue, between Sixty-ninth and Seventieth streets.




'1179
'Q. Yo gave him the fox? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And as far as you knw, is the fox there yet? A. The t
was there the last time I was by the store, some four or five weeb
ago
Q. He bred the fox, as I understad it? A. Yes, sir; hbe  '
the fox.
By Senator Seaton'
Q. How long ago was that    w a? -    m o-    wel-. 
wa" about four year, five yeara-D- le  thiam fbo
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Less time than tihat? X LesIaal tfh   I thnz
By the Chairman:
Q. Was it 1890 or 1891? A.A Well, t was-I ffhinl It wi
about 1890 or 1891, or around there; I know Mr. McClave wa
just talking about the moving of 156 West Seventy-seoond str
amd Mras McaClive wanted a larger house wd I draw the tim 
the house more thsa anythin  ele
I   By Mr. Goff:
Q. That is, they left 156 to go fia the new house? A. We w
in 156 when this thling tanspired, and it was shortly after that,
if I remember correctly, that we went to 124 West Seventy-secoa
street
Q. And it is by that you fix the time? A. Yes
Q. Now, Mr. McOlave testified here that he reeived from
Barnum & Bailey circus people, payment of a bill around six or
seven thousand dollars in bills; do you know  n ng ay gbout ms
transactions with the Barmum & Bailey circus? A. Na sir; only
he sold them lumber; he used to sell thiem luamber b fi their
seats and stall, whatever they used it for, with the understanding
with the Barnum & Bailey people that what lumber he could
take back and use over again he would do so less a) certai
percentage.
Q. What was the percentage? A. I could not tell you; li
would sell it for instance for three and a half cents a foot and
take it back, perhaps, for two and a half, or rent it to thex;
the lumber he would get back he could ise just aa well on thU
steamers that go to Europe as he couldMr. Nicoll.- COant the witness speak up?
The Chairman.- Speak up.
Thle Witness. —I a;xm using my voice as loud as I can.
Q. Do you remeLmber the summer Mr. MoClave went to l1
fornia? A. Yes, sir.




1180


Were you at hoome thiat smnmer? W. Yes, sir.
Q. In charge of the house? A. My wife and I.
Q. Where wene his sons? A. They were all in California except
Steve; he was the oldest son; he was appointed deputy comnisaioner -deputy treasurer of the police depairtment
Q. During his father's absence? A. Yes —not the pension
fund; there is a law that prohibits him being treasurer for the
pension fund.
Q. But the regular police fund? A. The regular police fund,
yes.
Q. Do you know anything about Mr. McClave supplying lumber
to the corporations here in New York —the elevated railway
corporations? A. Yes; I think that is one of his largest customers-the elevated railrhoad, that and Crimmins.
Q. He was asked here if he directed his lumber to be taken to
rirmmin's on trucks other than his own; he said no, that he did
not do so; do you know anything about that? A. Sometimes
they went on other trucks; yes, sir; in fact, all lumber when
delivered to the city depafrtment went on other trucks.
Q. On other trucks besides Mr. McClave's trucks? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember just as he was leaving for Califoria if
he said anything about that matter? A. I was not employed in
the lumber business; the White Yankee was upstafts; on the
front floor; the lumber yard was in the yard, and he told me to
keep my eye opea when Stephen was away, to see ltiatlW things
were right
By Mr. Ransoms n
Q. What summer was this?. lThe summaer; &the summer he
went to California; the same year that he incorporated the
Yankee Manufacturing dompany.
Q. That was in 1892, wasn't it? A I don't know the date,
have forgotten the date of that
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Did he say anything to you about the trucks?. In connection with that what I said; to be sure that the trucks that
delivered lumber to the city department to go on hired tracks,
not 'his trucks.
Q. Not on his own trucks? A. No, sir; still I have nothing
to do with that at all; that was not any of my business.
Q. Now you knew Mr. Higgins, didn't you, your brother-inlaw? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he an inmate of 'the family also? A. An inmate of the
house; he married Mr. McClave's oldest daughter.
Q. Was he a member of the family? A. Only in that connection'; he did not live there.




1181


Q. Did he live with him? A. No, sir.
Q. Did he visit them? A. Yes, sir; quik often.
Q. Did you ever hear McClave say anything to him about his
bills for the police department for work done by him? A. No,
sir.
Q. Did you ever hear him say anything about having pushed
through his bill, or his bill was credited all right? A. I heard
him say one time his check was already waiting for him, and he
had better go down and get it.
Q. Do you know anything about the cost of the furnishing of
Mr. McClae's house, the present house, No. 124 West Seveityysecond street
Mr. Nicoll. —Well, now, I object to that; isn't that a little too
far?
Mr. Goff —Mr. McClave volunteered to testify about it hima
self; I do not know whether this witness knows anything about
The Chairman.- Objection overruled.
Q. Do you know anything about the cost of farnshing Mr.
McOlave's house?
Senator O'Connor.-I suggest, Mr. Goff, unless there is some.
thing extraordinary about it not to go in details of that kind.
Mr. Goff.-I appreciate that point; I don't know whether this
witness knows anything about it or not.
Q. I will ask if he knows anything about it? A. I only know
what Mr. McOlave told me.
Q. What did he tell you?  A. That the house cost $85,000;
that it cost him $22,000 to decorate it; and that thecarpets on
the first floor cost him $4,500; but I don't know the carpet —that
last, what I saw about the carpets I do not think is so; the bill
was $4,500 and he would not pay it; it was an excesive bla,
and I believe Sloane & Go. started suit against him on it, and
Mr. McClave won ihe suit; I am pretty positive he did not p
that bill.
Q. Now did you do any bankidg business for Mr. MeClave?
A. In what way?
Q. Make any deposits for him in the bank? A. Yes, sir; I
deposited for him, four or five or five or six times.
Q. Where? A. Well, I made deposits at the Garfled Bankt
I made deposits at the Bowery Bank.
Q. You remember his fire? A. Which one? 
Q. His lumBer yard? A. Which one?
Q. Has he had more than one? A. Oh, yes; he has i  three o
four.
Q. Well, the last fire? A. Yes, er; I remember thaA




1182


Q. M1r. McClave has testified here that all his books and ibeck
books, aa. retorn vouchers from the bank were destroysd by
fire; do you know anything about the books, or check books,
whether they were destroyed or not? A. No, sir; I have seen
books in the office of the company from the fire; they were waitey
oaked and smoky and sooty and smutty.
Q. Was the writing on those books legible, or did you look in
to the books? A. Albert, one of his sons; the bookkeeper was
taking a copy of these burnt books into new books, the only time
I saw them.
Q. Now, you spoke about making deposits for Mr. McOlave;
where did he give you tl.e deposits to make? A. The deposits
that I took to the Garfield Bank came from the lumber-yard
office, and those that I made in the-and some of them went
to the Bowery Bank; it came from the lumber yard, and I made
some from police headquarters to the Bowery Bank.
Q. You made some from the police headquarters to the Bowery
Bank? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know anything about how he wrote his checks on his
accounts on the Bowery Bank? A. Well, there was a personal
account there that I know of, and I don't know how many
accounts he had; he had more than one, anyway; he had a personal account, a business account, and, I think, he had a private
account.
Q. Do you recollect observing the checks that he drew upon
any account he had in the Bowery Bank? A. Yes, sir; the
check that he gave me in that note that Mr. Nicoll has, was a
personal cleck; he makes out the check and writes personal on
the corner of it.
Q. Is that the Judd note? A. Yes; the Judd note; yes, that
was a personal check of his.
Q. Well, you say you went to police headquarters and got
from him deposits there; was there anyone with you? A. Yes
Pat used to drive.
Q. Who is Pat? A. Well, he is the collector and salesman of
Mr. McClave's; he is a man that has been with him a long while;
I guess he is one of the oldest people in his employ.
Q. Were you in the habit of going to police headquarters reglarly, or by appointments or requests? A. Sometimes I would
go there to see him on some business of my own and sometimes
I would go there at his request; he would ask me —send word
up stairs for me to go.
Q. Upstairs in the house? A. Upstairs in the house, or dawing the White Yankee he would send upstairs in the mill for me.
Q. Well, now, these times that you made deposits for him in




1183'
the Bowery Bank, did you receive checks from him to make
deposits in the Bowery Bank? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you receive any money? A. No, sir.
Q. Well, then, what did you deposit? A. Well, he gave me
a satchel, and I would take it down and getQ. What kind of a satchel; describe the satchel? A. It is
a commn handbag, a little black morocco thing, about so big
(indicating).
Q. Who delivered that into your hands? A. Mr. McClave,
generally - always.
Q. Where? A. In his office at police headquarters, and somem
times at the lumber yard.
Q. I speak now of the police headquarters transaction; was it
the same bag, so far as your observation went? A. Always the
same bag; yes, sir.
Q. Did he give you his passbook? A. No; he did not give me
anything except this bag, and say, "Take this around to the
halnk, Ed., on your way up."
Q. Take this account to the bank? A. Take this around to
the bank, on your way up, and leave it to the lumber yard; in
coming down town to police headquarters, I would go to the
bank and put it in the window of the bank and make a deposit,
and go back and drive to the mill.
(. Was anyone with you when you made the deposits? A
P'at, Mr. McClave's man, was with me once or twice.
Q. Did you drive down from the police headquarters to the
t1anL? A. Yes, generally; that was in the summer, when Pat
was with me.
Q. What did you do when you got to the Bowery Bank-firt,
iwho drove? A. Pat
Q. Did you get out of the wagon when you drove to the Bowery,
Bank? A. Yes.
Q. Left Pat in the wagon? A. Ye sir.
Q. What did you do when you went into the Bowery Bank?
A. Weit up to the receiving teller and pushed the bag through
the wicker-work there, and he would open it; I guess he knows
It —he would open the bag and take the money out, and count
it out and put it on a slip, and hand back the bag.
Q. What money would he dump out? A. Bills. 
Q. Any checks? A. Sometimes; not many.
Q. The most of the deposits were money? A. Ye
Q. Not bills; did you notice the denominations of fhe bills t
W. Not particular; no more than I see one, two, or thee, or five,
or teIn




1184
Q. Now,'you are very clear, are you, that you received,yolr
self, the black bag at police headquarters, of Mr. McClave? A
Yes, sir; I would receive it there, and also at the lumber yard.
Q. You testified here he never sent a depbsit from police headquarters to the bank to any account he ever had; was that true?
A. He may have brought that bag down from the lumber yard
and left it in the wagon, and have him take it down; I have
taken his bag from the office and from police headquarters; he
may have had the bag in his wagon when he got there and
taken it upstairs with him.
Q. He said he did not make any deposits from headquarters?
A. I do not know whether the deposits came from the lumber
yard.
Q. I want to know whether or not you received from him this
tag on the several occasions, and with money in it, to take to
the bank? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That money was constituted of bills? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember about the election time of President Hare
rison? A. Yes, sir; 1888.
Q. Yes; do you remember him saying anything about moneyt
at that time? A. He said he won considerable money on the
olection.
Q. Iid he state who he had won it from? A. Only one persoa
that I know of he said he had won'money from.
Q. Who is that person? A. Colonel Brown, of the News
Q. How mucth did he say he won of Colonel Brown?.   I
think it was $10,000 he won fromi him.
Q.* Dc you remember the policeman statioed at Thirty-forxth
tre'c tferry? A. You mean Myers?,
Q. I think that was the name? A. Yes; I know him.
QN. Nw, did you ever see Myens at the homse? A. Yes, sir;, b
used to come to the house almost every Christmas morning.
Q. This policeman?  A. Myers did; yes, sir; if he didn't eom
he w uld sernd 
Q. Used he to come there for any pnrpose? A. He alway,need to give Mr. and Mrs. MoOlave Christmas presents.
Q. This officer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever har him say wihy he gave them Christmas
presents? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever hear anything said abont Mr. McClave having
dm detailed there? A. He had him detailed there through Mr.
Martin P,. Brown; it was tehough Mb. Brown tlat he was
detaled there.
Q. Do yon remember any specific present yoe Maw Mrs. McOlave
having received from this man Myers? A. Two, I think; one was




118.5


a silver jewel case and the other was a pansy with little diamonds
in it; with diamonds in it and diamonds aixound the leaves.
Q. DId you hear Mi4r. McOlave say anything a4loat the latter
pamsy? A. NodTing; only it was very pretty -or I su ose she
said that - it was pretty.
'Q. Speaking about prescnts, do you. remember Mr. McClave ever
sayiag ailything about the Hollywood whisskey? A. No; I do not
rciuember as having heard him say anyt ng about the Holly.
wood whisakey; I do not know Ai he ever said anything about it.
Q. How frequently did he use to get Hollywood wtiiskey? Aw
Once a year or may be more.
Q. How did it use to come there if you know? A. Yes;- he
used to get a case of It around Chliristmafl time; who sent it I do
not know.; he uuamly u-sed to get a basket of wine from the N~ew
York Tribune.
Q. FRom the New York Tvibime? A. Yes, sir'.
Mr. Bradley.-A temqpeneance paper too.
The Chairman.-I do not see that tbhoe little matters are of.,
serious consequenoe, Mr. Gof.
Mr. Goff. —Why, of comuse, the wine n4ight have been of ligbt
quality and would not be very serious in its effects.
Senator Cantor.- It's a very serious charge against thbe
Tribune; that is all.
Q. Now, I hand you a nunniber ob deposit islips from the Bowery,
IBank: keep them in owder, please; look them over and state mi
whose handwlriting they are; keeip them in order and lowk ove*
each oxae? A. Can I take tlioge- oat that are in his?
Q. NO; beoau-se you disarrange them? A. There is one thail
is, and tfiat is in heme.
Q. Can you stabd-? A. What do you mean to do; to take
up Mr. McClave's, those that tare not.
Q. Those that are not in his handwriting; state whose tbeyt
are? A. There is oer there under date of July 10, 1886; the
handwriting is not his; one of June 1, 1886, is Mr. MoClave's.
Q. Thin them through and when you come to one that is not
his State it? A. There is one of Johnny's, July 10, 1886.
Q. Give the date of each one?
The Ihalirman. —Tyhey are all in Mr. McClave's handwtin j
eioept one or two.
Mr. Nicoll.- A1l in whose handwriting?
Mr. Jerome.- From Mr. Moclave.
The Witness.- One of July 24, 1887, Is in Jotumus ian&
writing.
Q. John MeOtave's? A. Yes
L.       149




1S6i


4 The son? A. 'es, that Is John MeClave, Jr., I do not know
whose that is in.
Q. Name the date? A. September 4, 1888.
Q. You can state in whose handwriting that slip is? A. I canl
not say of one or two people; it was either Johnny's or Albert's.
Q. Either the writing of the son, Johnny, or the so, Albert?
SL. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kicoll.-Whlat is this for?
Mr. Goff.-.To Identify these slips, the handwriting.,
The Witnes.a-The one of October 4, 1889, is SteveJ; -that
looks flike mine; I do not know whose this is.
Q. Name of the date? A. February 10, 1890.
Q. Can you state in whose handwriting this is? A. It looks
l1ike my own; I don'tknow whose it is, if it'is nat -
By Senator Bradley:
Q. It looks like yours? A. Ye. Oan youitell ynr own handwritiug? W. Not~ onabzs nae1
By Mr. Goff:;
Q. That was before you were married, wasn't it? K No, sir;
that is 1890, Februaa'y 10; I was married in 1887; I guess that
is tabout all; Auguist IS, 1892, is either Johnny's or Albert's; these
ae all marked persoma accqunt upon -them; October 6, 1883, In
Steve's; that i]s all
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Then all the rest of the slips that you hive examined are In
the handwriting of Mr. McClave? A. Yes, sir.
Q. With the exception of the names that you have given and
the dates? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Thlme are slips desigrated personal?2 A. Yes; tbose we
Blips desgniated personal.
By &Senaiotr Saxtorn:
Q Do any of those slips you have just looket~d oer asmI identfied as in the handwriting of Mr. McClave, designate to what
account they would be placed? A. Yesi all of thema; personal
account.
Q. They were all puseasnal? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Goff:
Q Is there a nyitbing further you wish to say that I have




1187


omitted to ask you of? Notbhig; only in regard to that StilwelI
matter.
Mr. Goff.- Well, I don't care abiit bringing that up; it is not
-maiteial to 'this inquiry.
By the Chairman:
Q. You testified you paid that gold certificate of $100 that
was received by you, to Mr. McOlave? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What other payments did you make to Mr. MEClave of
money that you secured as the result of securing promotion
and appointments? A. Well, there was that $175 of Cohen that
I mentioned.
Senator Bradley.- Speak out; the chairan can not hear you.
A. That $175 of Cohen
By the Ohairman:
Q. When was that? L That was n 1888 or 1890, or around
there.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. That makes $275; now what else? A. Well, there is quite
a number down in the memorandum there.
Q. Do you mean that the bulk of the amounts shown on the
memoranduan and that was read to the stenographer is in evidence here was paid by you to Mr. McOlave? A. No, sir; not
direct; thart Farnsworth business, one of those was paid to Kelly
and the other was to —
Q. How do you know Mr. McOlave got either one of these
amounts? A. I do not know it
Q. What other amounts except the ones you have mentioned
were paid to your knowledge to Mr. McOlave? A. Well, I can
not recall any one, no particular one, now, unless my memory was
refreshed by going back to this memorandum; I think the memor:rndum there, by the memorandum, that has been destroyed,
all of the memoranda that are in that book there that you have
got have been memoranda that I have made a minute of when
t'at book was in my pocket.
Q. Give your best recollection of the number of times that you.,aid Mr. McClave money as the result of appointments and promotions on the police force, the number of times, and the
amounts, the number of times? A. Well, in the neighborhood
of half a dozen.
Q. Are these half-dozen times impressed on your recollection,
cr are you giving an approximate number? A. I can recall the




1188


Cohen instance; I can recall the Ronk instance; I name that
oflicer, I can not recall the name of the officer in connection with
'tlae servant girl, Martha Devery; I recall my being sent downstairs, and another one that called at the house and saw me in
the kitchen.
Q. How much did they involve; the one you have just spoken
or; how much money was there in that? A. Three hundred and
thirty dollars, I think.
Q. And you paid the whole amount over to Commissioner
McClave? A. Yes, sir; that was the whole amount.
Q. Now, the next one? A. Well, I can not state exactly when
the next one was and whom the next one was.
Q Anyone besides the one you have given; the one that this
Maritha Devery, that I have referred to; how much did that
involve?
Senator Bradley.- Speak out.
Mr. Nicoll.-We ought to hear this.
The Chairman. —The Martha Devery, he says, Is the one that
he remembers; how much did that involve? A. Three hundred
and fifty dollars, I think; about $100, $175, $350, now, $375.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Who used the $300? A. I do not know his name; I think
it was down in the book in some place; it is in connection with
the friend of the servant girls in the house; I was called
down stairs about it.
Q. Well, leave the name out for the present; give us the
fifth one? A. Well, I can not recall their names, either.
Q Do you remember the amount of the fifth one? A. I do
not; all the amounts ranged anywhere from $50 to $350 or $400.
Q. And you say you remember about six? A. Thereabouts;
may be more and'may be less; there may have been a fifth one.
Q. Did you have any conversation as to the commissioners
through which yon had received the money that should go to
the commissioners at the time you handed the money to the commissioners? A. The Ronk one, in particular.
Q. What did you say to him? A. I said Ronk was very much
obliged.
Q. And when you handed the $100 gold certificate? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And when you handed the commissioner the $175? A.
MTat was the one I left on George Richards' desk, marked " Me(lave, important"
Q. Did he ever acknowledge receipt? A. Yes, afterwards.




1189
Q. What did he say? A. I have already testified to thi
before.
Senator O'Connor. — It has been all gone over.
By the Chairman:
Q. What did he say? A. Well, he might have said I got tt,
or much obliged, and it was there.
Q. Don't say what he might have said, state what he did say?
A. I can not recall what he did say; words to the effect that he
had got it all right.
Q, When you paid the next amount to the commissioner, what
did hIe say, or what did you say to rim? A. I told him- I alwas
told him thait there was the money whatever it was I paid him,
and it was for such amd such a purpose, and he always thanked
me, and sometimes he did and sometimes did not.
Q. Did you tell him the services, when he received the money
for which it was paid? A. I did in the Ronk business, and the
corn business tell him that, and in the Martha Devlin case.
Q. Do you remember you did it in the oither two cases you
have mentioned? A. Most likely I did; I would not swear I did,
or swear I did not; in all probabilities I did let (him know where
it came from, and what it was for.
Q. Do you remember having paid him any money which you
did not state to him the source from which it was derived, and
the purpose for which it was paid? A. Not unless it was left
in an envelope with someone.
Q. And that you only remember on one occasion? A. Yes,
sir.
By Senator Bradley:
Q. How much money did you pay the man Kelly alfogethier?
A. That was $200 and $360.
Q. Only one payment? A. Three hundred and fifty dollars
and $280.
Q. Two hundred and fifty dollars and $280? A. Yes, sir.i
Q. You paid to Kelly? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much money did you give from Bradley for his appointment? A. I don't know; it seems to me that Bradley was this
Martha Devery business.
Q. Martha Devery was the go-between there   A. No; she
was not; she came upstairs andBy Senator O'Connor:
Q.. You testified here that McClave said to you one time It 1x




1190
best to inave these things go through some other source, and no]
through you; why did you, on a half a dozen different instances
personally give this money to McClave, and on other instances
on which you say you received this money, go to this indirect way
of giving? A. Well, sometimes I wanted some of it myself.
Q. That is the only explanation of it? A. Well, no; it was
not; other times I did not see anybody to give it to; and other
times I would see them.
Q. On which occasion was it? A. On the first time you paid
McClave money direct, did he suggest a better way to do a thing
of that kind was to do it to a third person? A. He said, "Never
have any writing, and hand in money, so anybody can see it"
Q The first time he gave it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In view of that instruction, why did you, on five different
occasions, personally pay this money? A. Either because I did
not see anybody to give it to them to go to 1r. McClave, or I
had been instructed to give it to them on those particular oQC
sions.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Or that you wanted some of It myself? At Or that I
wanted some of it myself.
Q. Now, about Martha Devery; I ask you if that was not the
case of Officer James P. Cahill? A. That is not the name, I
don't think.
Q. Do you remember an officer of the name of Cahill? Ai Not
I don't think I do.
Q. Do you remember? A. I know that was not the name of
the Martha Devery case, because it began with a B, if I am quite
sure.
By the Chairman:
Q. Didn't you testify at the first heariag before this committee
that you had only given Commissioner McClave money on one
occasion? A. I think not, sir.
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. Directly, personally? A I think not
B3y the Chairman:
Q. Directly, personally  A. I think not)
Senator O'Connor.- Did he say, "Thought not.4
The Chairman.-I think not




1191


By Mr. Goff:
Q. Now, Mr. B-ahies was here, and Mr. Raines testified he never
met you, and never saw you; what have you to say to that? A.
Nothing, only that he has seen me, and he knows me, too; Canandaigna is only a town of 5,000 inhabitants, amnd I was brought
and lived there until I was 15 or 16 years old, and I went to
school with his boy, and ate at his house; I know him himself
as well as I know my father, and he knows me.
Q. It is true you did meet him in the Morton House in -New
York? A. I did meet him in the Morton House.
Q. And received money from him foir the appoinrtment of this
man on tbhe force? A. Yes
By Senater Cantor:
Q. You received the money?  A. No, sir; he received the
money and he gave me the money for the appointment; the man
gave me the money to give to Raines; the money was sexit down
from Camandaigua by Charlie Lapham.
Q. To give to Congressman Rsines? A. No; I met Congressman Raines at the -MortoTn Hcue to have himn o to see thts man
that was appodnted on 'he force.
Q. What was the money transaction between you and Mr.
R-ak1es?
- B  Mr. Goff:
Q. Tell them from the beginning to the end? KA I met
Raines at the Morton House by alpoinbnent; I think the amoc Mt
was $3,50 that he gave me.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. That flamnes gave you? A. Yes; $350 that Raines gave m0
By Mr. Goff:
Q. That Raines gawe you? A. Yes, sir; and I took it, toothat Is the Kelly matter; that Is the Farnswortth buslness, I
think.
By Senator O'oomiorn
Q. Why did you not give that money rdheot without gdiug to
Kelly? A. Kelly wau the go-between in the Ntueteeath. Ass-asbly district.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q When you had this person0rm  relation with (Comrnmissioioe




1192


McClave and Commissioner McClave was supposed to do the
business, why didn't you give the money directly to Commissioner McClave instead of going through Kelly? A. I was told
not to by Mr. MeClave.
Mr. Ransom.-What is that amswer?
The Witness.- I was told not to by Mr. McClave on two or
three occasions, more than one; and on other occasions he would
say you can bring that to me.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. Do you say Congressman Raines gave you $300? A. Yes
Q. Didn't you swear when you were here before that Congressman Raines, at the Morton House, had given the money to
Commissioner McClave? A. That is what I said,
Q. How do you reconcile the two statements; now, you say you
took that from Congressman Raines and gave it to Kelly?
Mr. Goff.- No; the witness says the money he got from Congressman Raines he gave to Kelly.
Senator Cantor.-The testimony, as I understand, was that
Congressman Raines told him he had given the money directly
to McClave, and that is what Congressman Raines denied.
Senator O'Connor.- If Raines gave it directly to McClave, how
could Granger get it back to give to Kelly?
Mr. Goff.-Not very well, if that be 
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Do you remember —on page 1212, "State to the court
what you know?"    "A. That was done through Congressman
aJines, of Oanandaigua.  Q. To whom was the money paid?
A. Direct to Mr. McClave, I understood. Q. From whom did you
understand that? A. Congressman Raines himself."
Senator Cantor.- That was my recollection of that.
Mr. Goff.- He,says, to whom was the money paid? He states
he received the money directly from Congressman Raines.
Senator O'Coonor.-He also says that he paid that money to,
Kelly as the go-be,tween, and in the former testimony he said it
was plaid directly to McClave.
Senator O'Ceooncr.-Let us get what he says now. I think
there was a confounding of two cases. There was the Famsworth anid McDonald case; were there not two oases?
Mr. Goff.-Yes; Farnsorth and McDonald.
By Mr. Gof:
Q. What was the case that Charlie Lapirm sen ei:tie daft t
yoA? A. That was the McDonald case.




I1I9t1


Q. Was it the Farnsworth ease Mr. R4ines was interested in?
A. Mr. Raines was interested in both of them, I tMhink
Q. State now youur recollectioa of the transaction with. Mr.
Raines at the Morton Homse? A. I met him by asppointmuent
there; I had a telegram from Oaniamdaigua, tesig me to meet
him there the next morning, and I mot him there on that morning, but I thbink I met him in the evening; I think the telegram
came from Charlie Lalam and Mr. Raines was to be at the
Mortboiu Huse, at such a time the next day to meet me; and -I
also left a note at the Morton Houusv, and said I w'uld meet him
that nigiht about dinner time, and I was to see him about whether
it was the McDonald case or the 11hrnwofth case I do not bringo
back to:my mind now,wanvymire than I did tihefn; I know that one
transaction I did have Mjth Mr. Raines, Mr rlaiunes said he did
have the amount to give to Mr. McClave, and another transaction
I did have with Mr. Raines, was the money I got transaction.
Q. There were two transatcions? A. There were two transaetionis I testified before, two weeks ago; one transaction Mr.
'Raines said he gave the money to Mr. MeClarve, and anothevr I
got the money from Rmines and paid it to Kelly,' all except a
draft of $30 or $50; Chxrlle 1apham says it was $30.
(). That was fur the doctors, wasn't it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was tbAt Dr. Nesbitt? A. I think not.
Q. Dr Nesbitt is one of the sergeants; wasn't he connected
with some of your apapontmefndis? A. Nothing; except one man
I sent down to Dr. Nesbitt, had been rejected on his disordered
system, that I referred to before, that was the only one.
Q. Did Dr. Nesbitt pjass him when You sent htim down? A.
N-o; Dr. Nesbitt said he would do what he could for him; I believe
he gave him some medici'ne for his blood.
Q. Dr. Nesbitt was the family physician of Mr. McClave, wasn't
be? A. Not exclusively; there was Dr. Ewing was also one.
Q. Do you remember one Sunday morning seeing Mr. McClave
in the bathroom of his house? A.. Well, yes; I have seen him
there, hbut I don't know in what relation.
Q. Do you remember whether a policeaman hi eitizen's clothes
called at the. houmm onegLrnlrping, = s gave you a p*kage for Mr.
McClave? A. WV'ell, no; I do not bring that basck now.
Q. Do you remember anything in connection  with. Inspector
William's trial, about the time of Inpctr Willism's trial? A.
No, sir.
Q. Do you remember a wairdman of the name of Burns calling
upon you at an~y time? A. No; he never called upon me; I know
a w-vardman of the name of A. Bursn, of the Nineteenth precinct;
be did not cl upon me; he called on Mr. MoOlave several tim.es
L;&      150




114


Q. Do you rememaier any conversation between yourself and
Mr. McClave about money that 3Mr. McClave said Inspector Williams had gone from him and paid him back? A. No, sir; I can
not remember that.
Q. Do you remember handing an envelope to Mr. McClave one
morning in the bathroom? A. I do not remember whether it was
a Sunday morning; I remember that one morning this officer came
up to the house, and wantedQ. Which officer? A. Officer Burns.
Q. This wardman you speak of? A. Yes; he is wardman now;
he caine up to the house and wanted to see Mr. McClave; I think
it was Sunday morning; I was going to my breakfast, and I went
up into the bathroom or library and told him Burns wanted
to see him down stairs, and I think he went down to see him.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. Whose wardman is Burns?
CLairman Lexow.- Williams'.
Senator Cantor.-Inspector Williams?
The Witness.- He is in the Nineteenth precinct; I don't know
whose wardman he is.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Do you remember Mr. McClave saying anything to you about
hds visit, or about his having brought a message from Inspector
Williams? A. No, sir; I don't recall anything now that he did.
Cross-examination by Mr. Nicoll:
Q. I understood you to say in answer to the question of the
chairman, Mr. Granger, that you had paid Mr. McClave money
on five different occasions yourself? A. On, or thereabouts, I
s i;i.
Q. Now, please state when the first occasion was; the date of
it about? A. The Cohen matter was the first.
~(. In the Sol Cohen matter you received money from Cohen?
A Xes, sir.
Q. And you paid it to McClave? A. The $30 you asked me
about on the first examination here.
Q. I say, did you pay the Cohen money to McClave? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Direct? A. The $30?
Q. The $300. A. Yes
Mr. Coff.-But $30.




By Mr. Nlcot:
Q. You paid all but $30? A. No, sir; I say, the $30.
Q. You paid him the $30; what did you do with the rest t 
I left it on George Richards' desk, as I stated before, marked
Mr. McClave, and marked important
Q. But you did not pay Mr. McOlave any money but $90 on
tlat occasion? A. That is all.
Q. When was that? A. That was at the time of those letters,
the date is there.
Q. Tell us the time? A. I think it was in 1888.
Q. What? A. I think it was 1888 or 1889.
Q. Well, when in 1888? A. Along in November, around the
fall of the year, I think.
Q. In November, 1888, you paid Mr. MeClave the sum of $30;
now, was that the first payment? A. That is the time that he
made his second application;:what that date is I do not remember.
Q. Was that the first payment? A. No, sir.  /
Q. That you ever made to Mr. McClave? A. That was the
first payment I ever gave to Mr. McClave; yes.
Q. Now, that was in the Cohen transaction? A. That was in
the Cohen transaction.
Q. When was the second; state the date and name of the per
sons concerned, and the amount of each occasion? A. In the
sc ond one, I think it was this-it was either Farnsworth or
BMcDonald; I do not know which one.
Q. Which one was it? A. If it was the McDonald oneQ. Don't say that way. A. It was either one or the other; I
don't recollect which it was.
Q. When was it? A. It was in the spring of the year.
Q. What year? A. The year he went to California.
Q. That is 1892? A. Yes, thajt is, if it was the McDonald one;
if it was the Farnsworth case, it was the one before.
Q. Did you pay money directly to Mr. McClawe in the Farnsworth case, yourself? A. No, sir.
Q. I ask you to tell me  e second case, where yo paid money
to Mr. McClave yoursef? A. Well, I think it was tie McDoneld
one.
Q. Whart was it? A. McDonald.
Q. When was it? A. The spring of the year.
Q. The spriug of what year? A. T.he year he wet 'o Ca lfolrna,
I think.
Q. The spring of the year 1892? A. Yes
Q. Did you pay Mr. MeClave yourself in the spring of 1892
money in the McDonald case? A. Yes, sir.




1196


Q. How muadh momey? A. I paid him either that drait, which
wes either thirty or fifty dollars and I paid him the balance
which was $200.
Q. What did you pay that in? A. In bills-no, the draft,
the thirty and fifty dollars was in a draft.
Q. The balance between the total amount, and the amoumnt of
the draft you paid himn in bills? A. Yes, sir.
Q. It was in the McDonald case in the spring of 1892? A. I am
quite sune.
Q. Between 1888 and 1892, had you any transations with Mr.
McClave? A. Wel, this Ronk —no, this Ronk business came in
between there, this $100 certificate business.
Q Then Ronk would be the second case, $100? A. Yes, Ronk
would be the second case; that was not an appointment though.
Q. That is the case of a police officer who made an arrest? A.
Of a police officer.
Q. And the third case is McDonald? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the fourth ease, stating the date, the person and to
who paid, whether in cash or bills? A. The fourth case was the
case of Burke; that is the officer's name, I think mow.
Q. WIho? A. Burke.
Q. When was that paid?  A. Thar was paid in bills ait 124 West
Seventy-second street.
Q. That is, you paid it yourself?  A. Yes, sir; I did.
Q. I bills to Mr. McOlave, at his house? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was it?  A. That was just after we got back from the
country.
Q. In the fall of what year? A. In the fall of 1892.
Q. In the fall of 1892? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, what was the fifth case? A. I don't know the fifth
case; I don't think I stated the fifth case.
Q. Are those all the ases?  A. That is all I recall to my mind
now; yes, sir.
Q. Those four? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And on those four different occasions you paid Mr. McOlare
yourself in cash or bills or checks for the men you spoke of? A.
Yes, sir; I say those; I do nt,say the Cooper transaction; that
was paid in a check.
Chairman Lexow.-You heard that, Mr. NicolL
Mr. Nicoll.- I did not hear it
Chairman Lexow.- He did not include the Cooper transaetot,
which was paid in a check.
By the Ohairman:
Q. That was the very first, wasn't it? A Yes, si




BY M3r. Nicoll:~
Q.Did you pay ino heck to him? A~ Yes, 1lr; took it up tO
police headquarters and gave it to him myself.
-Q. I. now call your attention to your testimony given before this
conunsltee when you were last on the witnew stand, page 1202:
"Q. But you handed him these several amounts of money
always, or checks or whatever cane to you? A. I did not say
I handed Mr. McClave any money; I have not said so right along.
"Q. Did you?. A. No, sir.
"Did you ever hand him any umoey? A. OnJy money I owed to
him,
"Q. You testified you baided him a oheok?   A. I hardly
think so."
Q. Is that testimony true?, A. No, sir.
Q. That testimony is false, is it? A. If wtat you msay 1IereQ. That is on the record, yes; this testimony is false, in It?
A. If what you read there is so.
Q. I am reading from the stenagrapher's minutes; did -you know
It to be fals  when you swore it? A.No,sir.
Q. Did you swear to it without knowing It lt be true? AZ
Probably I misunderstood the question; I might have, when I
was asked it.
Q. You could not understand the question of this sort; did you?
You voluiteered a part of that answer, "Did you ever hand him
any money? A. Only money I owed him."
Mr. Goiff.- That was in referenoe to this Cooper tnstioao
Mr. Nicoll.- I beg your pardon.
Senator O'Connor.- The record will show.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. That testimony was false, was It? AZ If whtm you say there
is so.
Senator O'Connor.-Tbe record shows that tesdtimny if it was
true.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Did you intend to swear falsely? & I have said no once.
Q. You did not; and is the testimony you have given to-day
true? A. The testimony so far as the $200 check from Cooper,
Whitehouse, New Jersey, is true;' I gave that to Mr. McClave
himself.
Q. Is the testimony In regard to the payment of moneys to Mr.
Mc~lave, that you have testified here to-day, true or false? A.
It is true, as far as the money goes; I would not swear to the
dates or year; so far as the money conuideration is coneerned,, it
fs right




198


Q. Then you have anided him other moneys than money you
owed him; is that true? A. You may call that owed money, if
you want to.
Q. Now, I think I heard you say, in answer to the questions
put to you by Mr. Goff —you testified, I think, in answer to the
questions of Mr. Goff, that you had been out of the Stafe? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. In a condition of fear since your appearance before the
oommittee, and that you had never authorized any one to communicate with me in reference to your business? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that true? A. That is true.
Q. Did you never, after you reft the State, authorize any one
to visit me on your behalf? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you never give any one a message to take to me? X
A written message?
Q. Written. A. No, sir.
Q. Are you sure about that? A. I know it
Q. What? A. I know it
Q. Look at the paper which I now show you, and state whether
it is in your handwriting (handing witness paper)? A. All is in
my handwriting, excepting " Delancey Nicoll or John McClave."
Q. And isn't that in your handwriting, too? A. Which one?
Q. "To Delancey Nicoll or John McClave"? A. No; it is not.
Q. Do you, swear that neither "Delancey Nicoll or John McClave" is in your handwriting? A. I do.
Q. I will read this to you: "To Delancey Nicoll or John McClave. — I hereby authorize my counsel, S. J. Stillwell, to make
any arrangements for me, and I will stand by it. Gideon Granger,
May 24th, 1894." Did you write that? A. I wrote the bottom
of it; I did not write the address, "To Delancey Nicoll," or the
address, "To John McClave;" I saw Mr. Stilwell myself, and told
him to come and see Mr. Goff.
Q. You told him what? A. I told him to go and see Mr. Goff,
and I said I would give him a card to Mr. Goff, and if everything
was right for me to come back and take the witness stand, I
would do it; that is what I said.
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. Do you claim the words "To Delancey Nicoll or John McClave " is not the same handwriting as the rest of it? A. It is
not in my handwriting.
Q. Is the rest of it yours? A. " Gideon Granger " is.
Q. Is all but the two top lines in your handwriting? rA. No,
sir; that is the only handwriting there.




1190;


Q. The only handwritfng is your signature? X. That Is th1d
only signature I have got.
Q. The witness now states That none of that card is written by,
kim except the signature of Gideon Granger, is that so? A.
That is the only handwriting I have got down there is my name,
In my handwriting.
Senator O'Connor.- It is evident the body of the card is one
handwriting, and the signature another; that, is the reason I
asked the question.
Mr. Ransom.- The witness did not say that
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Is the signature in your handwriting? S It Is;y
Q. Haven't you just sworn it was all in your handwriting
except Nicoll and McClave? A. If I swore it, I meaut to say I
authorized Mr. Stilwell to go and see Mr. Goff; I suppose that is
what Mr.- Stillwell put on.
Q. Didyou see that before you signed it?  A. I told himnto
gro and see Mr. Lexow or Mr. Gorff, or my father, and if It was
right for me to come back and testify I would do it
Q. )id you not see the card when yonusigned it? A. I certainly saw it; I don't know that I read it or not; I know I was
very nervous art the time.
Q. When you put your signature to that card-, did you see the
writing on It? A. I moay have seen the writing; undonbtedlyI did see the writing; but I don't think that was at the top when
I did see it
Q. Wtell, is the body of the caird in your handwriting? A. Ko,
sir, it is Iot.
Q. It is not? A. No, sir.
Q. And Is the signature in yorur handwrlilkg? A. 'Yes, s14
that is all it is; that is not a very good signaiture either.
Senaitor O'Connor,-.He says the writing was on when he
signed it.
'The Witnless.-. I don't know, thast I read it; I may, and mayi
not.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Didn't you authorize Mr. Stilwell to call upon me or Mr.~
MeOllave with this card? A. No, sir.
Q. And didn't you tell Mr. Stiiwell that you had met Mr.
McCjlave at a saloon on the corner of Fifty-ninth streeit the day
you left the witness, stand, and that he had prmomied to give
you a thousand dolars, and didn't you instruict bim to come to




1200


me and make those arrangements? AX No, sir; and I do not
believe he ever said it to you; Mr. Stilwell says he did not anyway.
Q. "I hereby authorize my counsel, Mr. Stillwell, to make any
arrangements for me and I will stand by it;" was not the arrangements the paoyment of the thousand dollars consideration for
your going away? A. No, sir; the arrangement was that you
and Mr. McClave was not going to prosecute me as you claimed
you were going to do, and I would come back and tell what Ik
knew about McClave.
Q. And that is what you meant by, "make arrangements for
me, and I will stand by it?" A. Yes; and I will stand by it;
I have stood by now what Mr. Goff says.
Q. Why did you sign this card? A. I signed it in Indemere,
down on the sound.
Q. When? A. Last week, Wednesday-no, two weeks ago
Wednesday.
Q. The day on which it is dated, the 24th day of May? A. Yes;
that was the date it was sent; that was either on Wednesday or
Thursday; I do not recall now which day.
Q. Who did write the body of the card? A. Frank Broadhead.
Q. And was it Broadhead who wrote the caption, "DelIaney
Nicoll or John McOlave?" A. I don't know whether he did or
not.
Q. Wasn't you with Broadhead? A. I was with Broadhead,
and with Stilwell, and -with Weber.
Q. When the card was written, who was present?   A, Mr.
Broadhead, and Mr. Stilwell, and Weber and myself.
Q. Where was it written? A. Down at Mr. Weber's hotel at
Indemere, a little ways out from Mount Vernon, on the sound.
Q And in a room in his hotel? A. In the d'ning-room, the
public room. nobody there but we.
Q. And Mr. Broadhead wrote the card in the presence of your
friends? A. lgroadhead turned to Stilwell and said, "You go
down and see Mr. Goff to-morrow if you can, because I can not
go."
Q. Broadhead wrote the card in your presence? A. I think it
was Broadhead or Stilwell, I can't remember which.
Q. Broadhead wrote the card, or Stilwell, in your presence?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you signed it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in the presence of Stilwell and Broadhead and yourself
and Weber, this card was written anl prepared? A. A portion
of it; I do not tHink the top of it was on when I see it




Q.Do you believ Mr. Broadhkead and Mr. Weber kantended to
dce~ive you in regard to the moation or~ th caxd? A. Xo; I do
Q.Do you believe that they wrote in " Dela ee~y INioli or Jobn
Mc~lave," intentionaly, and a  ninst your wse? A. I     iont
know wheti~er they did or not; I don't knlow that t14o 'is the same
handwriting; I don't think Delaacey.Wicoll or Jbaln McClave Wis
on that oaxd when I signed it; I don't know; younmight kave.writt~en tihat on that card for all I kuow.
Q.Haven't you JuAs stated ymn wrote the caaldi? A. W% sir; I
have not
Q. Or signed the card at thonbtel., at phi plao e and. it W~ 4 
written by one of theme gentlemen in your presence? A. y6es,
ns'i I did; I signoed that card in th~ese three geuflemen~s pre "WIi;
whetMher all was on that card that is on it now, I can' not tell.
Q~ YC'U were all three togethe~r? A. We wecre aill frtogetihex;
you can easily find out whether that is true.
Q. Don't do any teflying; you wili probably have all you wanat
before we get through.
Senator O'Connor.-No comnrovensy between   witnea3  and
counsel, ix~ceipt in questione aiud amower.
Mr. NicllL- I would like you to adoihthe witness to that
effect.
Senator O'Coninor.-I Will so instruc~t the witlmes  J wt
answer the questimns put to you, auwd no tkigback to the
CounselI.
The Witness.- I shall not,
By Mr. Niooll:
Q. In the year 1891, you weure af. work wherd? A1 l Bgte
humdred and ninety-one; whot part?
QIn the springofl1891? A. I     kit must have beem% te
Whidte Yankee.
Q. That was not formed until March, 1893? A. WellQ. Where were you at work in the spring of 1891? A. Pro.
due comuniesion business, post-oftloie.
Q. When did you, leave the prodoce ciommission business? A.
I think it was in Octosber, the latter part of Octouber, either 1889
or 1890, around there.I
Q. Thuring -that time, you were living free of boarld at Mr.
Meolave's house with your wife and ~ildiren? A. With my
wife and child.
Q.Now, during the spring of 1891, weire you not discharged
from thhe post-office? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you. not-rem-oved from thke post-office? A. No, siro




1202
aQ. Wht? A. No, sir; I left the post-offioe
Q~ I ~rnderstocd you to say oui your direct exaznqiation  that you
resigned from the post-office? A. So I did.
Q. Look &t the paper which I now show you, anid, state whether
or not that is the notice that you, received in Februsiry, 1891, at
the time you left the post-offlce? A. I never got a notice, so I
could not way.. That is addressed to yo% isnt it? A. Weil; probably it is
- well, what is addressed to, me down here probably it was
opened by Mr. MC()hve, if anythbig of tkatkiod was saJj= he
usually opemied all my mail.
Q.Iwillread tLpiato you.
Mr. GofW.- One moment. He says he never saw it Now, wbly
should It be put on record?
The Witssm. — If it has been addressed to me, I never had it,
aawl wourLd not have been foolish enough to give it away.
The Ohaia~an..- Don't read it until you offer it in evidence.
Mr. Goff.- I object to that; there is no proof of the authenthe
city of tihd letter. ThM  proof is the witness never saw It or
reoeived it
The Ohnairman.- Objection sustaetn&ed
Mr. Nicoll.- That is not a proper ground of elbjectlom,.
The Chairman.- Su-stained.
Mr. Nicoll.- Sustained without consideration?
The Chairman.- If he has never received the letter, unless
you prove the authenticity of the letter; you can not break down
this witness's testimony by showing a. letter he never received;
and there is no proof before us that he ever received that letter
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. During the spring of 1891, did you not pass off several bad,
checks? A. I don't know that I did.
Q. Which& Mr. McClave took up for you? A. I don't know
that I did.
Q. Do you deny that you did? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you admit you did? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you not, during the spring of 1891, forge certain checkan),which Mr. McClave took up for you? A. I don't know thatt I did.
Q. Will you swear you did not? A. No, sir.
Q. Look at this letter which  I'show youu and state whether
or not that is in your handwriting; look at the signature; state
whether the signature is in your handwriting? A. Yes, sir; the
signature is.
Q. Is the body? A. Yes, sir' that letter was sent all right.




1203


Q. That is yours: aCharles Meyers: Dear Sir.- The check
you kindly cashed for me on deposit I fear will be returned
marked N. G. Smith gave me his due on the 20th, and one for
$69. The cheek for $69 was returned this morning; I presume
the one you have will turn out in like manner. Did you ever see
euch damned luck? I will be to-morrow night to take up.
Please hold for me $69. Straps me to-day. I am very sorry,
and trust it will not inconvenience you  I am, very truly yours,
G. Granger. Excuse haste and paper."
Q. Did Mr. McClave take that check up for you? A. I don't'
know.
Q. Look at this check which I show you; state whether or tot
that is the check, and whether or not it was taken up for you
by Mr. McClave? A. Yes, sir; but I did not forge any name
there; that signature on the back is all right; I did not make that
check.
Q. This is the check referred to in the letter which I have just
read to you, is it? A. I don't know whether it is or not; it
refers to a check of $20 in that letter; I do not know whether that
is the check or not.
Q. State now, to the best of your recollection, as to whether
or not that is the check which was referred to in that letter?
A. That I can not tell, only from the fact that Meyers' name is
Indorsed on the back of it.
Q. That is the name of that man Meyers to wihom your letter
is addressed is indorsed on the back of the check? A. Yes; the
same name; I don't know whether it is Meyers' signature or not.
Q. Did you not observe that the date of the letter which we
have had was April 3d, and the date of the check was March
27th? A. I did not notice that
Q. Does not that refresh your recollection as to that being
the identical check? A. I don't think that is like that; that
would refresh my recollection, if you say it is the check; I would
as lief take your word for it.
Q. During the year 1891, didn't you, on several occasionsseveral other occasion - pass off other bad checks, the signatures
of which had been forged by you?
The Chirnan. —  There is no evidence yet that there is any
forgery there. There is no evidence of forgery yet You are
essuming the signatures are forged.
Mr. Nicol.- I am asking him whether he did not do that.
The Witness —I have not answered that question before, Mr.
Nicoll.
Q. Isn't that a fact? A. No; I do not say so.




1204
Q. Isn't it a fact tChiu Mr. McClave, during the period frcn
1891 down to some time in the spring of 1892, on very many
occasions, took up checks for which you had given ouside
pairties? A. Mr. McOlave has taken up some checks; but those
checks Mr. McClave has taken up; Mr. McoClave has known as
much about it as I have; and every check that Mr, McClave has
got there, has been paid otff; all of them has; every one.
Q. Do you deny that during that period, fron 1891 down to the
spring of 1892, 0ou over and over egain -? A. What is that?
Q. Do you deny that during that period of time, 1891, down to
the spring of 1892, that over and over again, Mr. McClave took
pay for those cheoks which you had forged? A. No% sir.Mr. Goff. — Objected to. Well, he bs answered now.
The Chairman- It has been answered.
Q. Look at the letter which I now skiow to you, the signature
of it, and the body of it, and say whether it is in your hands
writing; do not go thimugh it, but just look at it; look at the
body of it? A. I see my signature there.
Q. It is the body in your handwriting; is it not? A. Yes, sir;t
what is the date of that, Mr Nicoll?
Q. The spring of 1892 —May 13, 1892; I will read it to you,
'New York, May 13, 1892. Dear at her:" That was Mr. McClave,
wasn't it? A. I think so; it might.ave been him or m'ight have
been my other fa.her.
Q. " Clara has bidden, me write you;" Claxa was the name of
your wife, wasn't it? A. Yes.
Q. "NNot for your forgiveness nor mother's as that I eould not
ask?" A. Nothing to forgive.
Q. "I can hardly imagine the utbter contempt I am held in, in
your family feeliags nor the humiliation and disgrace which I
have caused you all to be submitted to. Te Linden check was
dated in December, amnd I used that money in paying for the gold
thimble I bought for the children to give Clara. The Budd check
was drawn in March before ycur last talk to me and which I
intended to take up. The Michelson check is the only wrong
check I have used since and tat, too, was dated prior to my
visit to you at police headquarters. I amn asohamed to meet you
as I well should be but nut afraid. I write not to ask you for
further lenience towards ne but aS I have for the last time
_inned and lied no matter what the cost may be to me I only
want to ask your permission to be with. Clara and the children
while you are in the city. And as soon as you go to the country
for tie summer I shall stay in the city and live down the stigma
and disgrace I have caused and b the time you return in the


is




~~_._ ___...e --- - 12P 1
fall prove to you and the world I am: a man and God is my wtltem
to this. I shall be at the factory all the morning to await yoEtfr
reply. Ever your loving son-In-law.
"GIDEON G1RANGER"L V
Q. Were those ftfree 6hecks that you have mientoioned not fimhe
of the chhecks which Mr. McClave had taken up, and which you
had forged the eignature upon? A. I don't say that I forged the
signature upon any of them.
Q Do you denylIt? A. I do not affirm Zt.
Q. Do you dieny it? A. No.
Q When you wrote to Mr. McClave saying, "I can not biart1le
imagine the urtter emitempt In your family feelings wr to
huaxiliatiorn aand dlsgraie wioch I have caused you; " did you n4
mean the fact t-ha you bad caused them hlumiliation and disgraft
by passing of forged cbecks? A. No, sir; I did not have- thre
Idea at that time.
Q. What do you mean? MA Mr. Mlcaave has ofttimes acnmsejl
me of gambling and  ri     and ong around drinking Wfth
fellorws.
Q. And when you say, "I cant not hardly imagine the Uftter
contempt I am held in yo-ur family feelings nor the humiliation,and disgrace which I have caused you all to be submitted to
and then you say "The Linden checks was dated in December"
and " The Budd check was drawn in March " and "1 The Michelson
check is the only wrong check I! have used since, and that, too
wad dated prior to.any visit; " do you deny that the humiliation
and disgrace had reference to these forged chacks; do you den'
that? A. The forged checks; I do not admit anything; the infer.
ence that is in that letter is that that is what it was written
about.
Q. Is it not the truth that was the reason you was in disgrace?
A. I don't know that it was; I do not uphold myself as bdeing,
an anggel; I say I don't uphold myself as being an angel in
doing everything in my past life; I know lots of the rest that
are not in the same way either, lots of them; I know there is lots
of things that I have done that has ben wrong and I sometimes
-I know lots of things I have done tilat were wrong; that daon'
impeach me, however.
Q. Let me read you this; didnt Mr. Acllave, as a matter of fact,
t~ake you back into the family after reading that letter? A. No,
sir; because I was never turned away.
Q. Didn't he forgive you in response to your urgent appeals
to tbat Iefter?  A. I do not -know; I do -not tnk  I asked   foir
forgiveness in that letter; I always lived with him up to the 29d
of February, 1894.




1206


Q. And.didn't he after that, in the month of July, ask you to
make a list of all your bad checks? A. I don't think that he did.
Q. And didn't you, as a matter of fact, make a list of all your
bad checks, and didn't he then take them all up for you in July,
1892? A. No, sir; I don't think he did.
Q. Look at that letter; look at the body of the letter, and your
signature; look at the signature and the body of it? A. I do not
see any checks there
Q. You are not to worry about the contents; is the body in
your handwriting and the signature in your handwriting? A.
Yes, sir; and the signature is in my handwriting; I will say,
before you read that Mr. Nicoll, that all the checks that Mr.
McOlave has got in his possession, that he claims to have in his
posession, have all been paid off, every one of them; and it is a
miraculous thing to have all those notes saved and all the rest
of the checks burned.
Q. Listen to this, "My Dear Father: I have not got all the
bills or notes, but those I have not got I shall try and get to-day.
F. Bechstine & Son is at 157-9 and 61 West stree:. The correct
amount of this is $9.20. William Heath, 254 West Fifty-seventh
street. This is a note dated May 27, for 30 days."
The Chairman.-What is the date of that letter?
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. "July 25, 1892. J. R. Gallagher, Rocdingham, Broadway
and Fifty-sixth street; this is also a note for 30 days, dated June
7th. J. E. Garner claims I owe him $50, but that is not so. His
address is at 148 West Twenty-sixth street, and all he is entitled
to is half of what I got, and I got $50, so his share is $25. J. D.
Grady's is for 70 libs. brass polish. His address is 438 West Thrty.
first street. Budd's bill you say you have. A. Steadman-was the
boy working for me, and I owe him four weeks' pay at $4.50, $18.
I will give you his receipt for that, as I could not very well get a
bill. I will go to the clerk's office to-day and get what you asked
for. Henry Seibert and Baird bills I inclose. I also inclose you
a statement of money owed me. I am, lovingly, Gid."
The Witness.- Where are the checks in that.
Mr. Nicoll.-Will you instruct the witness not to ask me ques
tions.
The Chairman.- Do not ask the counsel questions. Answer
Jis question.
Senator (O'onnor —.Aire those checks in that paper dated.?
Were they prior or subsequent to this fire at whi&h Mr. MoClave
claims his books were destroyed?
Mr. Goff.-Prior.




1207
By Senator Saitonb:
Q. When was the fire? A. April 12, 1893.
The Ohairrnan.- How do you account for it; tiee diedC  ae
produced and the other checks not.
Mr. Goff.-That is what we would like to have bM  ModQa
explain when he comes on the staund 
By Mr. Nicoll:. Look at this letter  ich: I slow you and sfate wieBtler r W
Is in your handwriting? A: Yes, sir.
Q. "Dear Father.-I have made out the list you wanted me
to and send it herewith inclosed; if you want me to come down
I shall, but I thougit you might sspe;t meafter my promises
made yesterday of taking Anie's money when I did not, and
could not, as I was nmot.in the house;" what pomises did you
make him the day biefore? A. I do not know at that timt;
I do not know what promises they were; I have made m
several promise, and he has made m;e lots of promises; probably
I broke the promises to him
Q. Didn't you over and again make him promises to keep
straight, not to pass off bad checks, not to drink? A. I have
made him promises-no; I don't think I hiave.
Q. Haven't you over and over again done that? A. No; because
I have drank with him.
Q. Haven't you over and over agai done that? A. No; how
could I; no; I have not
Q. You have not? A. No 
Q. Haven't you promised over and over again in writing nBo
to touch another drop of liquor in your life?
Mr. Goff.-Objected to; let the writing be produced.
The Chairman.-Objection susutained.
Q. Haven't you promised him over and over again not o
talke a drop of liquor in your life? A. I have made promises; I
told you that; I have not promised hin over and over agai,
though
Q. Look at this letter; state whether or not that ib your
sigmature? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is your signature? A. Yes; what is the date of thait
Mr. Nicoll?
Q. It is late? A. 1894.
Q. "Hon. John McClave: My Dear Sir.-Please do not get
angry and destroy this long letter before you have finished
reading it; I wish to be the first one to tell you of the news
that will gladden you, although it breaks my heart; I have




1208
authlorized Mr. Jerome to withdraw my answer;" that was done,
wasn't it? A. No,sir; it was nIrot; "1 and -to allow with no
defense Clara's case to go by default; it is not only from th4
innocence of the cbarge that I fought as hard as I could and as
long as my maeagre means would allow me; but it was for my
great lowe for Clara and our children."
Mr. Goff.- Will you read the whole of It, Mr. Nbooll?
Mr. Nicoll.- There are certain personal mateiu that d~o WE
relate to Mr. McClave.
Mr. Goff.- Will you submit it to me, please?
The Cauirmau.- That is all to be read if it goes iv evidemce.
Mr. Nicolt- I wlUl read ft all.
The Wjtnea&.- I know what the contents are.
Mr. Nicoll.- I will read it alL  "Bl ut it was for my great love
for COara and our dhildrern that I fougihit as hard as I could. I1
have loved them as no moan could love but those plased in the
same poasitloi I was-my whod1e life amd sole was raped upi in
them. She is as dear to me know and I Ilove her just as much as
I did on December 31, 1887. In lettling the case go by default
I do so on the gr'ounds which time will nott permift me to mention.
It is a hard lesson for me to learn and I now kow it. That there
is nothing harder for one to go through than to be separated from
those hb loves moot dearly and the very air they breathe and
ground they trod on is' preCious to me and I love it - their figures
haunt me both day and night  Still T deserve a punisshment but
I had hoped one not so severe as this one. I want toa my dear
sir, thank YuO most humbly and penitenrty for all you hNave done
for me for every act of generositty and kindness yea have ever
shown me you have my thanks and may God bless you and keep
you all happy. Words can not express my.'meaning when I
say I am sorry for the trioubles I have causned you. and of the
heartaches I Nlave girven Clara. All my wick-.ed acts and, foolish
things were done wheni under the influence of liquor and I curse
it - am] as long as r live, never shall I toach iti again. I have
not dra.nk cne drolp of liquor since I have been with Smeith, Gray
& Co.,-my   new emneployers and the best place I ever had. I
enclose you a letter from Mr. W~hite which will, I hope, ocinroborrate
the stiartemenit I am aibout to make. And in a letter I will maHl
Clara to-day I siall send her an order to get the poiicy from my
brother in ease of death, the reason of my keeping it is to pay the
premium, or I had just as leave turm it over to you-.  I have bad
my life insur'ed hi Claira's favor flor p2,000, and the -policy is at the
New   York  Wife   Tns'anose  and.  Trust Obmypany  whre
myI brother Aleerk works, No. 52 Wall street. T have -,ifob
made   other  povisions  which  are  at the   samo  place..




1209


I mean to work both heart and soul and by 'my endAavors
sobriety, honesty -and truthfulness show to the world, all men
andA women and children, that my children's father redeemed
himself and died an h~onest upright man. I can do it and by
God I will; excuse that expression but that is just what I mean.
-Now, in closing this, my last letter to you, let me say again tblat
I thank both- you and mother for all you have done for me. I
am more than sorry for 'my causing you trouble or incoanvenience
and now o~n the eve of this I ask your forgiveness. I am truly
sorry I have been. the cause of your delay in going away for the
summer, but it has only been my love for Clara and the children
I have dome what I did. -I wish you all the best of health, long
lives and happiness. And if Clara ever marries again, may she
getf a good and honest man who will make her happy and be
good to my children and cause you no trouble. Good-night
dear father and good-bye. Thank you agailn for your helping
baand given me freely and go many times - you. may doubt what
I -say but every word 'in this letter is true and you will so find
it. I am a somewhat altered person than what I was and can
realize more plainly now my foolish acts than I did some time
back. With best ot wishes for you and your family, I am,
Yours, most respectfully, with love.
"GIDEON GRANGERBrw
The Chafrman.- What is the date of that letter?
Mr. Nicoll.- May 4th.
Slenator O'Oonnor.- This year?
Mr. Nicoll,- This year.
The Wiftness.- In reply to that letter, Mr. lhair~rmnr, my. rcowa
'father was sent for and Mr. McClaveThe Chairm~a.- You can make your statement hereafter.
Wbile yon are under cross-examination just answer the questions
-of counsel, and Mr. (3'off can mak a raemorandmunvof any explanalbon you want to make. 
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Look at the letters whic~h I ztow show you and state In
-whose handwriting they are?. A. That is my father, I think; my
own father.
Q. That is from your own father' addressed to Mr. Mc~lave,
Isn't it? A. Yes..
Q. And didni't YOU see that letter hi Mr. Mc~lave's possession;
and didn't you talk to him. about it? A. Never in my life, and
d~n't know who wrote it even; I am surprised to see it now.
IL       152




1210
Letter marked for identification Exhibit "A.,._
By Mr. Ransom: i
Q. What is the date of that letter? A. July 19, 1892.. Did you receive that letter from Mr.-whatever his name
X there-give the name? A. No, sir.
Q. You never received it? A. Never saw it before.
Q. It is addressed to you, isn't it? A. Yes, sir; but I did not
get it; all the mail that went to the Seventy-second street office
was opened by Mr. MoClave or Mrs. McClave or my wife.
Q. Look at these letters which I now show you and say whether
or not they are in your handwriting; are they in your handwriting? A. If it is, it is very poor, I would not swear it was.
Q. Will you swear it is not? A. I won't swear it is either way;
now it does not look like mine.
Q. The Gideon Granger is not in your handwriting? A. I don't
think it is.
Q. Is that your handwriting (indicating)? A. That is there;
yes (indicating).
Q. Is the body of it all in your handwriting? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The whole of that letter? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Isn't that your handwriting? A. No, sir; that is not my
handwriting.
Q. That is not your handwriting? A. This here?
Q. Yes. A. Well, it looks like my handwriting, but I do not
see why that should be signed that way.
Mr. Ransom.-I wani to have these marked for identification.
The letter referred to as being the one in his handwriting is
marked "Exhibit B."
Q Tell me whether that is your handwriting? A. I do not
know whether it is or not
Q Will you swear it is or not? A. No, but I won't swear it
is not.
Q. Will you swear that is not your handwriting? A. I admit.that
Q. That is all your handwriting? A. Yes, sir.
Paper marked "Exhibit C."
-Q. Those two are your handwriting? A. Yes, sir; bun tiha
is not.
Mr. Ransom.-This addressed to " J. H. Barringer. Dear Sir:
If you will call on Mr. McClave at his office, 610 West Twentysecond street, Monday morning between 10:30 and 11:30 we will




1211


give you check for full amount. Please bring mortgage and notes.
I am, respectfully, Gideon Granger."
The Chairman. —Is that the $200 chattel mortgage? A. That
refers to the chattel mortgage.
Q. On the machinery of the Yankee White Mamnfaoturing
Company? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Didn't you write the whole of that? A. I said, "Yes,"
Mr. Nicoll.
Q. Did you write Scannell G. Post? A. I don't know whether
I did or not..
Q. Who is Scannell G. Post? A. I don't know him.
Q. You don't know him? A. No, sir.
Q. Here is a letter in your handwriting with a man's signature
at the bottom, that you don't know? A. I didn't say that is
in my handwriting; I said that signature, "Gideon Granger" i
in my handwriting.
Q. Who is this man? A. I don't know.
Q. Armstrong was a man who was one of your agents waant
he? A. George Armstong?
Q. Yes? A. Ye.
Q. He was pressing you for payment and yout were putting
him off? A. I don't know whether he was or not; if that letter
says so it was so.
Q. Here is a letter addressed to him in these words: "Georage
S. Armstrong: Dear Sir.-Your letter to Mr. Granger duly to
hand; Mr. Granger will return from Philadelphia this afternoou
and will attend to the check you refer about; there must be
some mistake, as he deposited on Thursday of last week, $275.
lhanking you for youm kind information, I remain, very truly
yours, Scannell G. Post; For Gideon Granger."
The Witnesa-Have you got that check, Mr. Nicoll?
Q. Just answer the question; didn't you forge the name o
gcannell G. Post?              -
Mr. Goff. —I object
A. No, sir.
Mr. Goff.-Do not answer.
Chairman Lexow. -That is excluded.
Mr. Goff.-Let the check be produced.
Q. Did you write the name of Scannell G. Post?
Mr. Goff.-I object, unless the check is produced.
Mr. Nicoll. —It has nothing to do with the check. I ar
jasking him about this letter.
By Chairman Lexow:,
Q. Did you write that name? A. I don't know whether; A




1212


t3 or not; it don't look like my writing; I litow I wrote
G Gideon Granger " there; I do not know why I wrote it, though;
I do not deny the fact that the body of the letter is in my
handwriting; you (Mr. Nicoll) aked _me if I signed he other
man's name.
-1
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Didn't you write that letter to Mr. anstrng for the
purpose of making Mr. Nicoll believe that you were out of town?
A. I might have.
Q  And wrote the signature of Post in there-the name
'Seannell G. Post," for Gideon Granger? A. I may have; I
don't know that I did.
Q. Well, as a matter of fact, you were in town at the time?!A. Well, I don't know that.
Q. Isn't that the meaning of that letter?  A. Probably it was
a delay; yes.
Q. Look at the check which I now show you, dated December
27, 1891; didn't you draw that check? A. No, sir; that is not
mine.
Q. Isn't the body of that writing yours? A. No, sir.
Q. Isn't that a check which you cashed and which Mr. MeClave
took up for you? A. That is the check that I cashed and paid for.
Q. Solomon S. Dewey; do you know that man? A. No, sir;
I never signed that check.
Q. Do you know Solomon S. Dewey? A. No, sir; I do not.
Q Did you ever see such a man? A. Never saw the man in
my life; don't know whether there is such a person.
Q. You gave the cheek? A. I don't know; probably it came
in the course of business; I see it is indorsed by the Yankee
Manufacturing Company.
Q. Look at the check, which I now show you, marked December 17, 1891? A. Yes, sir.
Q Isnmt that a check which Mr. McClave took up for you? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Who is G. W. Grady & Co.? A. That is the man who h/ad
the brass polish job for the Yankee White Manufacturing
Company.
Q. That is another check you signed? A. That check I drew
on the promise of Mr. McClave that he would deposit $1,000
to the credit of the company, and he didn't do it.
Q How much was that check? A. For $34.
Q. Look at this check; didn't you write the whole of it? 'A
1o sir; I didn't write the whole of it.




1213
Q. Tsn't it all in your handwriting?  Al No, sir; itL is n
Q, You deny that? A. I deny the writing here at all.
Mr. Nicoll.- The check is dated December 16, 1891, on the
Bank of the Metropoli&
Witness.- I know who wrote that check; it was wrtitteuin
our office.
(Check maxked defendant's Exhibit (D.)
Mr. Goff. —The witnass is not here on trial for forgery.'
Senator O'Counor.-There is enough proof here to satisfy my
mind that this man dealt in checks that were crooked.
Mr. Goff.- But, Senator, he says that he is not an angel. I
have not raised the question at all about the propriety, and, in
fact, the duty, of the chairman to instruct the witneosa, under
the peculiar circumstances that he comes here, wimh the knowledge that fthese charges have been made against him in the
public press, through Mr. McClave's authority, that le has a
right to refuse to answer any and all questions that wo'uld tend
to criminiate or degrade him.
Chairman Lexiow.- T.-s testimony can not be used against
him in any trial.
Mr. Goff.- I have not yet invoked the aid ~a the committee,
but I do think that we ought to keep down to the matters iMn"
volved in this examination.
Senator Saxtnm.-.He has'nort affirmed or denied anything, so
far as the question of forgery is concerned; he refuses to either
affirm or deny.
Senator OComr.. —.The committee has sense enough to draw
Its own inference.
fSenator Saxtom-We are willing to sit here now for Some
tfime.
Wilness.-I  will be back- to-morrow.
Mr. INTicoll.-I have no doubt that the wiftktms will be here
to-morrow.
Mr. Golf. ---I am satisfied, gentlemen, to sit as late as you
wish.
Chairman Lex-ow.-flave you any objection to a recms unfil
to-morrow morning?
Mr.  off.- None at all,' if Mr. Nicoll Ti satisfied. Will you
please instruct your sercgeant-at-arms to keep control and charge
of this witness until to-morrow morning?
Chairman  Lexow.- The sorgeant-at-arms will keep control
and charge of the witness un)il to-morrow morning, and all witnmeses subpoenaed for to-day, will appear here at half-pwt 10
tomorrow morning.




1214
Committee aidjoured to Wednesday, June 6, 1894, at half-past
10 o'clock a. m. 
Proceedings of the 21st meeting of the committee, to whom
was assigned the investigation into the conduct of the police
department of the city of New York, held in the Superior Court,
Part I, in the County Court House in the city of New York,
Wednesday, June 6, 1894, at 10:30 a. m.
Present.-All of the committee, except Senators Robertson
and Pound.
Counsel on both sides present~
Senator O'Connor. —Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Goff?
Mr. Goff. —I will be, very shortly.
Senator O'Connor.-The committee unanimously instruct Mr.
Goff to go before the grand jury and procure the indictment of
witnesses who have failed to attend here, who have been properly
subpoenaed.
Mr. Goff.-Now, Mr. Granger, will you take the stand?
Gideon Granger resumed the stand for further oroea-examina
tion. 
By Mr. NicolhQ. You testified yesterday that Jn some one of the eases that
vou say- in some one of the' appointments in, which you Were
interested, you paid $30 to Mr. MoClave; what ease was that?. 'That was the Cohen case; the first case that I ever had; the
case I told you of the last thing last night.
Q. You say that was the Cohen case? A. Yes, sir; that was
the first case.
Q. You say it was the first case? A. Yes, sir; the first money
that I ever handled between Mr. McClave and the applicant and
myself.
Q. That was the case in which you gave Mr. McClave $30? A
Yes, sir; that was in 1888.
Q. That you say was in 1888? A. i think that was the year,
1888; yes, sir.
Q. I read from your testimony given upon your previous examination as a witness in fiis case:
"Q. Will you state what you know about it? A. I know he
was appointed.      -




1215


'Q. Xnything else? X. I know   it cost him  $205 to be
appointed.
"Q. To wheom was that moaey paid? A. Well, $30 of it went
to the doctor's room, when he went up to the dootor's some way
or other, he was half an inch too small
"By Mr. Nicoll:
"Q Did you see the $30 paid? A. Yes, sr; It was paid to me,
and I sent it up to headquarters.
"By Mr. Goff:
"Q. It was not sent to Mr. McClave tthifgli, the $30? 5. No,
sir."
Q. Do yon still swear that you paid Mr. McClave $30? AL Yes,
sir; I did not send it; I took it there myself.
Q. In view of that testimony given on the previous examination as a witness, do you still swear that you gave Mr. McOlave
that $30? A. Yes, sir; I do, and the 175 -
Q. Do not go on and testify, except in answer to my question:
I will read from your testimony on page 1196;
"By Mr. Goff:
" Q. Was he not rejected at first on that account? i. Yes
"Q. That was before the $30 went up? A. Yes, sir.
"And after the $30 went to the surgeons he grew half an inmh
higher? A. Yes, sir."
Q. Did you testify to that? A. I think so, if that is the way of
it there.
Q. Do you still swear, after listening to that part of your testimony given upon your former appearance as a witness, that you
paid $30 to Mr. McOlave? A. The same answer as I gave before.
Q. You swear to that? A. The same answer.
Q. What do you mean by the same answer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You mean that is true, is that it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the $30 did not go to the surgeon, did it? A. Tie
sunposition was that it went to the surgeom 
Q. Your theory is, that you handed it to Mr. MoOlave to go to
the surgeon? A. I presume he gave it to the surgeon, otherwise
he would not have passed the docrtorn 
Q. In that case of Judd, is it not a fact that Mr. MeClave dis
counted this note for you, which was shown to you yesterday,
and gave you the sum of $500 upon it? A. -Yes, sir; he gave me
$500 upon it. —     -




12i6
Q. You still swear that the signature, George W. Judd, was
written by George W. Judd? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And not by you? A. I would not have sworn the other way,
if it had bee n.
Q. Is it true that it was written by George W. Judd, and not
by you? A. Yes, sir.
Q Is it not a fact thart the only transacotion that you had with
Mr. McClaxe in reference to that, was the subsequent payment
to him o f $200 on account? A. No, ir.
Q. You did pay him $200 on account of the notes, on January
10, 1888, did you not? A, I do not recollect the date; I know we
paid him $200.
Q. Shortly after the note was made? A. Yes, sir; on or about
that date.
Q. And is that paid to him on aoooimt of the note? A. The
$?200 that is indorsed on the back of that note is.
Q. Where did you get that money? A. Got it from the bookkeeper.                                  I
Q. The bookkeeper of what?  A. Our bookkeeper, 145 West
street; he wrote out the check and I took it to headquarters;
the bookkeeper wrote out the ckeck, and Mr. Judd signed it, he
signed the check and then I took it up to police headquarters,
and gave it to Mr. McClave.
Q. Were you in hMe employ of Mr. Judd at that time? A o No,
sir; I was not.
Q. You were not th the emnploy of Mr. Judd? A No, sir.
Q. Had you known Mr. Judd? A. Yes, sir.
Q. WVas he a friend of yours? A. Yes; I was in businems there
wiih him.
Q. Was he a partner of yours? A. No; but I was in business
for myself; it was a part of the store that I rented with him;
we had a general account, and all goods assigned from tae
west we were jointly interested in; there was no salary.
Q. Was that the commission business of which you speak?.A. Yes, sir; the commission business that I have spoken of.
Q. That was the business that you left on account of the smell
o1f veaal, was it? A. Yes, sir.
Q1. Did you borrow this money from Mr. Judd? A    No; I
didn't borrow any money from Mr. Judd at all.
Q. You did not? A. No; I borrowed that $500 frm     Mr.
M3eClave.
By Senator O'Connor:
e. For yotlr joint account? A;. Yes, sir; Mr. Judd indorsed
tlbs  note.
Q. And the money was for both of you? A. Yes, sir.




By Mr. Nicoll
Q. Did you bring the money to Mr. M&clave or have a cheak
AL Yes, sir.
Q. Did you indorse over Mr. Judd's check to him? A. I don't
know whether the check was made payable to Mr. McClave or
made payable to me.
Q. That you gave to him in payment of your debt to him? A.
That iadorsementt of the $200 on the back I did.
Q. That was the check that you got from Mr. Judd? A. That
was one of them.
Q. You got another check from Mr. Judd, did you? A. Yes,
sir; another check.
Q. How many checks did you get from Mr. Judd? A. I do not
know; I have had lots of them.
Q. For the purpose of paying on this note? A. No; only one
on this note.
Q. That was in the year 1888? A. I.think so.
Q. I understood you to say in your testimony that that check
was handed to Mr. McClave for the purpose of getting a man on
the police force? A. I did not say anything of the kind.
Q. ])id I not understand you to say yesterday, or in your last
testimony that you gave, that Mr. McClave gave a check of $200
for the purpose of getting a man named Cooper on the police
force? A. Yes, sir, I did; either $200 or $250, I do not recall
which.
Q. And that was in the year 1888, was it not? AL I think it
was about the middle of February, 1888, or the latter part of
January.
Q. Did you tell Mr. McClave that that was $200, a bribe to get
Cooper on the police force? A. I did not say so; no, sir.,
Q., Did you tell him that that was for Mr. Oooper's appointment? A. I said there is the money that we promised you, and
he said, who, and I said Cooper and myself.
Q. You married Mr. McClave's daughter in December?:A
Yes, sir; the last day of December.
Q. The 31st of December, 1887? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You want us to believe that in February, 1888, your fatherin-law received $200 from you In a corrupt transaction of this
kind, do you; is that true? A. Yes, sir; I did business; I had
applicants for the police force before I was married even.
Q. Is that true; answer the question that I put you? A. YPs,
sir; that is.
Q. Within 30 days from the time you married his daughter, he
L, 1, 153




1218
tecelvei $200 from you for a man to be appointed on the police
force? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was tllhat the first transaction that you had with Mr.
McClave? A. In money matters; yes, sir.
Q. That was the first time?  A. When you say first, what
do you mean?
Q. I mean the first transaction that you paid him for the
appointment on the police force? A. Yes, sir; there was lots
of money that I sent to him, that came to me before I was
married.
Q. You gave us five different cases in which you said you had
paid money to Mr. MCldave for appointnents on the police
force? A. Yes, sir; and that was one of then.
Q. Was this the first one? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The first one in which you gave money for that corrupt
purpose? A. The first one.
Q. That was the very first one? A. Yes, sir; in handling
money; I guess, tsle very fire...
By Senator O'Connor:
Q. Do you mean the Cooper ease? AL Yes, sir;.the Cooper
aase, he is talking about; I said that yesterday,
By Mr. Nicoil:
Q. You know that you handed Mr. Mclave a check for $200
In this Cooper matter; did you have any conversation or any
subsequent conversation on the subject of money? A. With
Mr. McClave?
Q. Yes. A. No; I do not think that I did.
Q. Did you ever talk with him after that on the subject of
money for appointments upon the police force? A. Privately;
yes, sir.
Q. What do you say? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then, you did have some subsequent conversation? A. You
did ffot say subsequent
Q You misundcirstand me; I did say subsequent?  A. I beg
your pardon if you did.
Q. You did have subsequent conversations, then, upon the
subject of money? A. Not subsequent to that
Q. Not subsequent to the Cooper transactios? A. No, sir;
not subsequent to the Cooper transaction.
Q. IDid you never again talk to him, after February, 1SS8,
albout money for the appointment of applicants on the police
iforce? A. Yes, sir; afterward.,. After the appointment of Mr. Cooper, did you ever, after




.1219
Wiak hare any cmoversaitlon with Mr. MeCkiave% ablont money for
the arppointment of apfpicamti on the pojliee force? A. Hie told
me I wasQ. Did you or not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I read -you from page 1204: "11You stated a few minutes ago
as to the question of money When mentioned between you and
Mr. McClave, that Mr. McClave expressed himself as being averse
to money being used? A. Yes, sir; he did. Q. You knew that
you had handed Mr. McClave a cheak for $200; did you have
any conversation, subsequent conversation, on the subject of
the mxoey between you? A. No$ sir" is that true? A. I have
said no'ta that twie.
By Senator Saxton:
Q Do you mean that you did not have any subsequent com.
versation? A. Prior to the appointment of Mr. Cooper, theioe
was no cheek of Mr. Cooper until after that
Mr. Nicol.- Does the committee t4n4< a he
4tie word " subsequent? 'By Senator O'Oonnorloc
Q. Is that testimony thaft you gav  to Mr. Nicoll frueor
false? A. Was it before or after?
Q. Do you not know the meaning of the word "subsequent?"
Senator O'Connor.-PRepeat the question, Mr. Nicola.
Q. I read from Mr. -Go-ff's question; I will put. it again: "You
stated a few minutes aigo as to Ahe question of money when
mentioned between you and Mr. Mcllave, that Mr.- McClave
expressed himself as being averse to money being used? A.
Yes, sir; he did. Q. Now, you knew that you had handed Mr.
Mclave a cheek for $200; did you have any conversation, sub.
sequent eonversation, on the subject of the money betiween you?
A. No, sir."  A. That is incorrect
Q. That is not true, is it.? A. No, sir.
Q. Whlen you swore to that here upon your premiouq erawft
Ination, that was false, was it? A. It was false, if I said what
yOu have read there now.
Q. Well, I have read from the record? A. I masy have miw
Qmderstood the question; when it' was give&.
Q. I read you aitpage 1202:
"By Senator O'Connor: t
~Q. Did you have a talk with Mr. McClave about these appoint.
ments? A. I spoke to hmin ], regard to his appointment




u "Q  DId he give you tou nderstand, alt any time, that it would
rquire money to aLppint him? A. No; quite the contrlary."
Q. I that true? A. That is what he did say, "quite the contrary," that its true.
Q. Have you not already sworn yesterlday, that you had five
corrupt transactions with Mr. McClave? A. Yes4 sir; I have.
Q. Is This testimony that I have real to you true? A. Yes, sir;
Mr. McClave'was always averse to talking of it
Senator OTCIonnor.- He means probably that Mr. McClave said
one thing, and meant another.
The Witness.- That is the surpositiofn, Mr. Senator.
Mr. Nicoll.- Yery kind of you, Senator.
Senator O'Connor.- I should adge that was the purporT of
his remark.
Q With regard to the McDonald aqpo)&intent, that was the
appointment which you say was procured by Mr. Raines, a congressn-an from the western part of this State? A. I think -not;
I said he was implicated in it-I think it was Chahrles Lapham,
and the one I referred to with Congressman Raimes was Mr.
Farneswort&h
Q. Mr. Raines was the backr, was he not? A.. The backer of
'whom?
Q. The backer of the applicant, McDonald,? A. No; Charlie
La~plam was.
Q. Did you not receive letters from Mr. Raines in regard to the
appointnentf  A. Letters from Mr. Raines in regard to McDonald, no.
I read you from your testimony, given on the former exanination at page 1198:
Q. " Wms there anything about this application Por appoint'
ment? A. In money matters you mean?
" Q Yes? A. Yes, air; United States Senator Laapham's son,
Charlie Lapham, of Canandaigna, was the backer for him th~ough
John Raines, who was congressman, who was, at one time, member of the Senote; I had several letters from them about him."
Q. Is that Iri-e? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you not just sworn that you had not received any letfers from Mr. Raines? A. That does not say so.
Q. "I had Several letters fmom them about him?" A. The
inferen-ce'was, when I answered that question, I might have been
referring to Laq-ham; I do not think Mr. Raines ever wrote me in
regard to.Mr. McDonald.
Q. When you swore you had several letters from themt mentioi



1221.. _..
ing Mr. IaMnes and Mr. Lapham, it was nodt true tWat you {ad
any letters from Mr. Raines? A. Yes, sir; these letters had
been in ppmpbication; 
Q. Was tit true that you had received any letters from Mr.
Eaines? A. No; not in that case.
Q. I undeiaiood you to say that you received a draft of $50?
A. Yes, ir. 
Q. From somebody in Canandaigua? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And immediately gave the $50 to Mr. Kelly? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or you gave the draft to Mr. Kelly? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know Mr. Kelly previous to that? A. Yes, sir;
I knew Mr. Kelly.                i
Q. Had you had any conversation withf Mr. Kelly previous to
that? A. Yes, sir.!
Q. Had you ever had any rasaction with Mr. Kelly previous
to that? A. No; I would not swear that I did.
Q. I understood you to say in your testimony, that you received
a draft of $50, and you gave it to Kelly, almost immediately after
its reeipt; now, was this the first trasaction that you had had
With Mr. Kelly, or had you had other prior transactions? A.
No; I t   Tink that was the first transaction.
Q. This was the first transaction with him? A. I think so.
Q. And you sent the draft immediately to Kelly upon, its
receipt? A. Yes, sir-I didn't send it to him; I think I left it
for him in Masterson's saloon; I know that I testified before that
I mailed it to him; I do not know whether that is so or not, but
I know he got it.
Q. Did you send the draft to Kelly or leave it for him in Mas.
terson's saloon? A. I either left it there for him or sent it by
mafl; I don't remember just now which.
Q. Did you say anything to Mr. McClave about that? A.
When I got the draft?
Q. Yes. A. I do not think I did art that time until after he had
passed the doctors; he was rejected at first.
Q. What was the date of his application to you? A. I eoldS
not tell you that'
Q. Do you swear that you ever had a conversation with Mr.
McClave, in relation to the McDonald appointment, abou t maneay?
A. Yes, sir:
Q. Look at the letter, which I now show you, and state
whether or not.t is in your handwriting, and signed by you?
A. Ys, sir. 
Q. I will read itf "New York, November 13, 1888. Dear
Father. —The bearer of this letter has good backing by some of




1222
our city fathers, who, as be says, have instfrcted him to get a
blank form of application. If such can be given without trouble
or inconvenience, he awaits your answer. These annoying letters
are no more obnoxious to you than they are to me, and I do not
like to inconvenience you, after doing all you have for me. But
these are the cases. If this could be done, it would be a big help
to the bearer. Believe me, I am your loving son, Gideon Granger." A. That is no reference to Mr. McDonald.
Q. That is a letter that you addressed to Mr. McDonald, in
reference to the McDonald appointment? A. I do not know
whether it is or not; what is the date of it.
Q. November 13, 1888. A. I don't think it is; in fact, I know it
Is not.
Q. What appointment is it in relation to, then? A. I think
you will find out that it is the Cohen appointment.
Q. The Cohen appointment, you think? A. I think so; that is
about the date of it.
Q. That is the letter of November 13, 1888; was that the date
of the Cohen appointment?    A. I don't think Cohen was
appointed at that time; I think he was appointed in October, 1889.
Q. But was this the date of his application? A. If I remember
correctly, I think it was about that time.
Q. Take the letter and look at it, anal state whether or not it
was in reference to the Cohen appointment? A. I'could not tell
you unless the name is mentioned, and there is no name mentioned here.
Q. Have you not said it was in reference to the Cohen appointmeat? A. No, sir; I said I thought it was.
Q. Are you able to swear on the subject? A. No.
Q. Do you know that you wrote another letter, a different letter in regard to the Cohen appointment? A. No, sir; I do not;
I did not know McDonald at any rate in 1888.
Q. " These annoying letters are no more obnoxious to you than
they are to me. and I do not like to inconvenienoe you, after all
you have done for me;" what do you mean by that? A. He
never wanted me to put myself in writing in any way.
Q. What did you mean by tha;t statement, "I dio not like to
inconvenience you, after all you have done for me?" A. To
bother him by receiving letters.
Q. What had he done for you up to that time? A. I don't
know that he had done anything, except lend me that $500.
Q. Was that what you referred to? A. I could not tell you
at that time what I referred ta       -




1223
Q. If this colfd be doae, it would ie a big hAip to tie
bearer; believe me, I am your loving son, Gideon Granger;what did you men by that?    A. What I say in that letter
is what I mean.
Q. And you mean nothing but the $50'0? A. That is all that
I recollect of.
Q. Two hundred dollars of which you had already paid, had
you not? A. Yes, sir-what is the date of that?'
Q. November 13, 1888? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You had paid the $200 on it?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your reference in this letter was to the discounting of
the note for $500, on which you had paid $200? A. I do not
smear that, but that is one thing that comes to my rAind now.
Q. Look at the letter which you wrote to Mr. McClave on October 26, 1889; that is the letter in reference to Mr. Cohen's
appointment, is it not? A. Yes, sir; that other letter that you
showed me though, is asking for an application.
Q. I will read this letter, "New York, October 25th, 1889.
Dear Father. —  he bearer of this is S. Cohen (our carman)
who stands No. 30 on the eligible list, with a percentage of
90.34, and thie inclosed letter is the one you desired him: to
get from Ege & Otis, which is considered the most reliable
commission-house in our business. Not only having passed such
a good percentage; he has other qualifications, which are deemed
essential to making a good officer. Not having, to my own
knowledge, touched any kind of liquor since'he has been with
us, and others say the same of him, when in their employ. In
asking you to appoint him; I ask a favor that I may have no
right to, and it will only benefit me through his brother, who
is our head salesman " —was it his 'brother who gave you the
money? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that the money lthat you say you sent to Commissioner McClave? A. Thirty dollars, the money that I took up,
and the $175 is the money that I left on Richards' desk in an
envelope.
Q. Notwithstanding the fact of this letter, in which you asked
Mr. McClave to make an appointment, which will benefit you,
you say you sent him $30, and $175 was left on RIciards' desk?
A. That was before the letter was written.
Q. "And in past favors, the bearer has done me in riding
my stuff in time for sales. I write this as I do not like to
bother you by calling when so busy. And I am informed you
are to appoint to-day, trustirn that this will reach you in time
to be accomplished.  I remain, my dear father, your son-in-law,
Gideon Granger.. In view of those two letters, in relation to




1224,
those two appikaftons for appointmenf, do you still persist In
*ptur story that you paid Mr. MeClave any money, whkh you
may have got for this auppoinbnent? A.    ave Mr. McClave
$30 withbmy ownhands.
By (hairmaii Lexow:,
*  Before or after that letter was NMilt ten? W. Before &
last one was written.
Q. Before the last one that Mr. Nicoll quotued from was written? A. Yes, sir; that was the day he had passed his examination, and been put on the eligible list; the other letter of 1888,
I do not know whether it is in reference to (Yohen, or Brown,
Jones or Smith; there is no name mentioned; it was just a letter
sent there to get an application.
Q. The money was paid, not to put him on the eligible list,
but to arppoint him, was it? A. The first $30 was to have him
pase the dofoors; on the first examination he was too -short,
and the $30 was for tiat
Q. That was paid to put him on the eligible list? A. That wa%
to have hjn  pass the doctor.
By Senator Cantor:
Q. And that v-&s paid to Mr. Molave, yom say? W. Yes, air;
that was paid to Mr. McClave, and the $1715, the baIoiee  of that,
was left on Richards' desk hi an envelope.
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. You testified on onr examna tion yesterday fhatr Mr.
McClave had intrusted you to carry a bag containing money and,
checks on several occasions to the Bowery Bank for deposit; Is
that true? A. Not I personally; Pat was always with me.
Q. Did Mr. MecClave ever hand to you or intrust to you personally, mnoney for deposit in the Bowery Bank? A. Yes, sir.
Q. W"Then? A. Oh, on different occasions.,
Q. Tell us when, what year? A. In 1891, that was the first
time, I think.
Q. And 18920? I.A. I think in 1892, too.
Q. W"as it not in 1S91. aind 1892 that Mr. McClave took up these
various checks for you? A. T d1o not know.
Q. Wais it not in the year 1.891 and in the following year that
he took up these varions chkeclks that we had yesterday, the
TLndert check and the Mfichelson ch~eck and the other checks
that were mentioned? A. It is, if the date of these letters Is




1225
the same; it Is the same year that I was up at the mill tlrre
with him.. In your letter of May 18, 1892, which I read to you yesterday, those checks you remember were spoken of?. A. I asked
you yesterday - 
Q. You remember tiat those checks were spoken ot? A. I
remember.
Q. And in this letter you say, "I am ashamed to meet you, as
I well should be, but not afraid; I write, not to ask yon for
further leniency) toward me, but as I have for the last time
sinned and lied, no matter what the cost may be to me, I only
wart to ask your permston "-  and so on; do you mean to say
that at the time he was taking up that check for you, you were
writing him letters that you had sinned and lied, that he was
intrusting you with money to deposit in the i-owery Bank? A.
I do not know that it was in those years.
Q. Well, during those years? A. Well, yes;,it was about that
time.
Q. Is that as true as all the rest of the testimony that you
have given here, that during the years 1891 and 1892 he was
intrusting you with money to deposit in the bank? A. I do not
swear to those years.
Q. What year will you swear to? A. I will swear within the
last six tears.
Senator O'Connor.-That question, "Is that true as all the
rest that you have testified to," is hardly allowable.
Mir. Nicoll.- I never used it before in my life, until I gc into
this investigation, and I took it from  fr. Goff. I have heard
lawyers ask that question for years, but I never asked it before,
but I have heard Mr. Goff ask it here, and I thought it was a
question for this case.
Q. How much money have yon received for appointments
which youl did not give to Mr. McClave? A. About $100, or a
little over maybe, maybe $150 at the outside figure.
Q. And all the rest you handed to Mr. MeClave, did you? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. In all five cases? A. Yes, sir; Mr. McOlave gave me back
$50 in one case that I spoke of.
Q. Is it not a fact that you were trading upon the fact that
you were Mr. McClave's son-in-law? A. No, sir.
Q. Is it not the faict that you were trading aUd blackmailing
people, to pay you money to get them on the police fore? A.
No, sir.
Q. Have you not borowed money from policemen and captains on
the police force in tis city? A. No, siri never in my life.
L.       154




122iJ
Q. Bormowing the money on the strengthl of your being Clotnmlsaioner MeClave's san-in-law? A. No, sir; never;
Q. lHave you not had chocks cashed in various places on that
account? A. No, sir; never, on that strength.
i. Arenotthoise the chetks atlhI have shown youii and is not
that the reascn that Conrmissioneir McClave tcok 'them  up,
because you had paassed yourself off as his son-in-i w? A. I do
not think- so; I have paid Mr. Molbave every dollax's worth of
those checks.
Q Do you say that you have paid him every dollar on thcse
checks? A. Everyone of thetn.
Q. When did you pay him the cheeks? A. At different times.
Q. When were you making any money to pay. him the checks?
A. I have made money right along..
Q. You did not pay a -cent of board, did you? A. I was not
asked to.
Q. You never gave but $3,000, in six years, to your wife and
children? A. They do not say that.
Q. You swore to it yourself? A.. Yes, sir; and over that.
Q. Your business in the White Yan-kee Manufacturing Company failed,. did it not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What -as your salary in, the post-office? A. Nine hmun4red
dollars.
Q. What was it in EhAichi's? A. Fifteen dollars a week.
Q. Less than $1,000 a year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In Smith. & Gmay's, horw much was it? A. The samen
Q. And you say you have paid $3,000 tol your wife and paid up
to Mr. McClave all thris money, which he took up for you? A. Yes,
Sir.
By Mr. Goftf
Q. You have stated, or at least you were about to state, when
Mr. Nicoll interrupted you, that you had applications from mien
who sought apintinol ent on the police foace, before you became
Mr. Mto(ave's son-in-law; Is that trpie? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you tell the committee hew it was that men made applicationis to you before you became a member of Mr. Mcllave's
family? A. We were engaged for over a year and a half.
Q. You and your promised wife?   A. My wife and I were
engaged for over a year and a half, and there were two atendaints at the roller-skating rink, at Broadway and Fifty-third
street, that first asked me to give them letters of introduction
to Mr. McClave for appointment on the police force.
Q. How did they know of your relation to Mr. McClave's family?
A. They had heard the story that we were engaged; trhat Miss




1227
ecClave and myself-were engaged to be married, and they proi
ably thought there might be some influence.
Q. Did you know them? A. Did I know the applicants?
Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it a fact that you and the young lady, Miss McOlave,
were in the habit of viiting the skating rink almost every
night? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you any other application but the ones in question
now? A. There was one, a foreman of the gas company down
at the Mutual Gas Works; he was another one, and Mr. McClave
appointed him; whether there was any money transaction or
not, I do not know.
Q. Did you recommend him? A. Yes, sir-no; I did not
recommend him; I gave him a letter of introduction to Mr. Mo.
Clave; he was recommended, I think, by an alderman.
Q. How did he know of your connection with Mr. McClaveB
family? A. That was through one of my brothers, who was
employed as bookkeeper at the gtasworks.
Q. Had you any other application? A. I think that was alL 
Q. Do you remember having had an appointment with a man
who sought to be appointed on the police force, at the liquor
store of McKeever, near the Christopher Street Ferry? A. Yes,
sir; I remember having an appointment, but I do not remember
his name.
Q. Was there any money paid there? A., I think not.
Q. You do not remember? A. No, sir; I do not.
Q I asked you yesterday about the visit of this ward man,
Byrnes, to Mr. McOlave's house, in reference 'to Inspector Williams; can you tell any further from your recollection upon that
subject to-day? A. I remember of going out on the breakfast-room
and seeing Byrnes at the door, and the girls said that he wanted
to see Commissioner MoClave, and. I did not think that he was
up; it was early in the morning, and I took the letter up staims,
and told him that I would give it to him; I knocked on Mr.
MeClave's door, and he was not in his room; I walked back; I
heard him washing, and I gave him the letter in his bathroomn
Q. What was the appearance of the letter? A. It was quite
bully.
Q. In an envelope, was it? A. In an envelope; yes, sir.
Q. When Byrnes handed it to you, did he say anything regarding it? A. No; he said it was from Captain Williams, but he
said he would wait to see if there was an answer to it.
Q. He said it was from Captain Williams? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he would wait and see if there was an answer to it?
A. Yes, sir.




1228
Q. Did you deliver tliat letter or paclage, whatever it was, to
Mr. McClave? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did Mr. McClave say anything to you when you delivered
it to him? A. He made some remark about, when I said there
was a messenger from Captain Williams, and that he was waiting for an answer-what the remark was, I would not like to
swear to, because I am not positive of it.
Q. If you are not positive of it, do not swear to it; do you
remember it was about the time of Captain Williams' trial? A.
It was thereabouts.
Q. Was there anything said by either Byrnes or the commissioner, that fixed in your memory that fact, that it was about
the time of the trial? A. No, sir; only-no; there is nothing
that I can fix in my mind positively about it.
Q. That is, from your independent recollection, you think it was
about the time of the trial? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know if Mr. McClave was in tih-e habit of giving
sums of money, in coin or bills, to Mrs. McClave? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what sihaJpe were they? A. He used to give her gold,
always, that I saw.
Q. Gold pieces of what denomination? A. Ten anl $20 gold
pieces
Q. Do you kow that Mrs. MaClave had a bank account? A.
Yes, sir; she deposited them somewhere, but where I do not
know; I think it was in some -trust company, or savings bank,
where there was an interest attached to it, but where it was
I do not know.
Q. By the way,'you spoke yesterday about Johnnie McClave,
John McClave, Jr.; whether you and he were very friendly;
were you or were you not? A Yes, sir.
Q. You traveled around tidogleer considerably?  A. Day
times, I did; I never was out at night with him.
Q. I. the day time you traveled around with him? A. Yes,
air.
Q. Have you conversed with him about your divorce case?
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nicoll.-Suppose he has conversed with John McClave
about his divorce case; what has that to do with this matter?
Q. Was he a witness in the proceeding? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where is he now? A. I understood they sent him to South
Dakota; I afterward learned that he was in Europe; he did not
testify; a deposition was taken.
Q. He went away after this committee was appointed, did he?
A. Yes, sir.  - 




1229
Mr. Nicodl.- That Is a moist unfair question, when it Is known
that this young man is in very delicate health; he has not long to'
live, that it should be made out that he had rmn away fromi this
committee.
Mr. Goff.-It is a rem~rkaible thing, that this delicacy onky
cane on within a shboet time of the sitting of this commnittee; from
the number of delicate men connected with the police departmewt,
I am afraid an epidemic of sickness has stbruck theim.
Q. This letter, whicih Mr. Nicoll has read with strci very skill
ful elocutionary effect, dated May 4, 1894, that was after the
&&tion had been brought, was it no;t? A.- Yes, sir.
Q. And after you had determined not to defend the action,
though you had incterJposed an answer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Here Is a phrase in the letter, which Mr. Nicoll trippingly
skipped over: "It is not only from, the innocence of the charge
that I fought as hard as I could, and as long as my meagre
means would allow me;" what do you mean by that phrase?
A. I told Mr. MoClave, if he would consent to let the trial go over
until the fall of the year when I had money enough. to defend it, e
that I would still fight it, and' he said no, that he would not dof it;
he had got me just where he waurted me now,, and he was going
to keep me there; -that was the only reswon of my letting it go by
default
Q. In answer to somne questions by Mr. Nicoll, relating to aonversations which you had with- Mr. McClave, in reference to
appointments, you osairLd that you had conversations with Mr.
MoClave -about app h'tentis after the Coodper transaction; is
that iso? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when Mr. Nicoll read fromr your testimony, stating
that on a previous examination that yonu had no conversatiou
with Mr. McClave subsequeut to that transaction, what did you
mean; have you any explanation to give as to the difference
between the words "subsequent" and the word "afterward,"
which you used?  AN. It u'as at that time that Mr. McClave told
me when I give him the Cooper check; it was at that time that
he told me, that I sliould never bring him any checksi or any:
paper oir writing, and he spoke to me then, and he said, letber.
writing or indorsements are self-cwuvicting; that was the sub.)
sta.-nce of what he said.
Q. And after the Cooper transaction, you never acepttlted:any
eheck? A. Wo, sir: I ne-rer did myself.
Q. And you never took a (heck to him? A. No, sir.
Q Whatever money pasvsed through your band war in tii m?
~. Always; yes, Pir.
Q. These letters stated to Mr. McClave in reference% to Cohen's




1230


qpoinfinenf 'AVte zdl ion have done Ior me   'will have to
get that letter later on; Mr. McClave testified. here that he bad
no-ld $20,000 in taking up c1(chks alleged tx) have been forged
by you during the six years you were in his family; what have
yV    got to say about that testimnony? A. If he has whwre are
the checks; he niut certainly have them; he claims to have them;
that is not true.
Q Can you give the cownmultec any idea of the tumoint of
checks which lre clabn  be has set forth here? A. NNO, p;I dlo
not think from what I see- I do not think the alleged checks
are any more than two  or three 1,uudred dollars at he outitside-,
aud every penny of any checks tbat.Mr McClave has pai- for Me
has been, with the exception of perhaps $10 or $15 or 20, repaid.
Q. You said something yet;icriaky about his books; have yo-i a
knowledge of the condition of M3r. McClave's office tefore the
Are in 1893? A. I was there alt.1 the night of the flre and all
the u nxt day.
Q. Tell the committee what kinid of a structure was this office;
was it a brick builng or a wooden building? A. It was a
wooden building.
Q. How near was it to the burning lumber? A. About as
far as from here to the far sMde of tihe room, if not farther.
Q Can you say whe.tber or not the structure.ii which the
office was took fire? A. No, sir.
IQ. Did it take fire? A. It did afterward, after the lumber
was burned, It burned the far end of thre office; the office ran
back on Twenty-secmd street and the faotory building. ran up
an Twenty-second street to Eleventh avenue; -the office ran into
the yard, and it was the back end of the yard that was burning;
I was in the office the morning after the fire.
Q Was the office destroyed? A. No, sir.
Q. Was Mr. MeOlave on -the ground himself duirfng tbi fire?
IL Yes, sir.
Q. Did you hear him give orders to the flremen? X Yes, sir,
6 your water Duto lthat building.
- Q. What building? A. The small three-story brick factory on
Twentyrsecoind street.
Q. Tbqt was the office builditag? A. No, sir; that was the
stable building.
Q. You say you were In the office the next morning after the
lre; did you modcee the safe? A. I do not think that I noticed
the safe, an much as I renadrk Mr. McOlave's testimony.
Q. What about the desk? A. It was a new one and he felt
ery badly that it had been smoked and about haf-burned.; it
was scorchied and blistered up.




1231
Q. t was albnit half-burned? AL Yes, sir.
Q. It was not comipletely destroyed? A. No, sir; T ftlnk1 toey
took It out from the fire and sent it up to the mill to some of the
cabinet-workers and had it polished up again,
By Senator Saxton:
Q. Do you mean that it was burned through or burdi only ao
the outside? A. It was only blistered; it was not binued up;,
it was soaked and scorched.
Q. Only on the outside? A. Yes, sir; I did not see the coatents.
By Mr. Goff:
Q. Do you remember what kind of safe wast i the office? IL
It was a very large safe; it stood so high (Indicating) from the
floor.
Q. Do you remeimber the name of the safe? A. No I could not
tell you that; tthatt ws one of the safes and they had a smaller
one besides.
Q. There weretwo safes? A. Yes, sir; there were two saes.
Q. Can you say whether or not Mr. McClave kept all of his business accounts and books in that safe? A. I should not like to swear
that he kept them all in it; either in that one or the smaller oe,
either one or the other, except his order-book; I do not think he
ever put his order-book in the safe.
Q. What is that, the order-book? A. The tally-book, that he
used to sign when the lumber would go out of the yard. 
Q. That was a book that was consteatly in use was it not? A.
Yes, sir; always in use.
Q. Did you ever see that safe open —the large one? A. Yes,
sir; I did.
Q. Did you ever put books in that safe? A. Yes, dir; I put
the WVhite Yankee Manufacturing Company books in there every
night.
Q. Mr. McCave has testified here that he kept the return
vouchers from his bank, or his bank account, in a steel safe
within a large safe; do you know anything about that? A. I
knoiv there was a steel apartr -nt inside of the large safe; I
do not know what he kept in it.
Q. Can you tell from your recollection whether or not that safe
was destroyed by fire? A. No, sir; I am quite positive it was
not; it was pulled out
Q. You say the safe was pulled out the morning after the fire?
A. No, not the morning after the fire, but it was during that week.
Q. So that it was not reduced to cinders or ashes, was it, by
the fire? A. No, sir, the far office in Mr. McClave's private office,
it was taken out from that office into the front office, the frib
e \\ ei ae  Ilj- a                   ' —; -_ ---




123S
Q. You saw:tien move the safe? A I saw It staing fie
Q Did you notice iits condin  then? A. It was acorhed
and blistered; the paint was all black or looked as though it had
been in a fire
Q. It looked singed, did it? AI Yes, sir.
Q. But so far as the iron structure of the sate was cooered,
did you notice any damage or destruction outside of what yoa
have described? A. No, sir; no more than being sorched.
Q. Did you see the safe opened after the fire? A. I do not
ftink thaut I did.
Q. You said sonmetng yesterday about the book, you isw tihqm
talkiug then, you say fromu  one set of books into a new set of
books? A. Yes, sir; the mooning or the second moining after
tfie ire, I do not lkno  whiih, the books were all taken around to
the Twenty-first street buuiding; there was a vacant loft there
and a temporacy office was made there and I went in there one
imornotdin ng i that week to get somefhing or other; I do not
know what I went there for, and I,saw Albert Mclave, his so,
copying fromn the burned book or the damaged books into new
books; I aked him wat he was doing and he said he was taking
off ie record.
Q. Do you know how many heck-boos  Mr. Maiave had? A.
In the safe?
Q. Generaly, im use? A. He has his lumiber book-no; I do
not know how may chekekbooks he had.
Q Did you ever see him have a cheok-book at all? A. Carying around with him, do you mean?
Q. Yes. A. No, sr.
Q. Did you ever ee him carring che*ss astrd with Mmhir 
Yes, sir.
Q. How; in what shape? A. He used to ary them ina tek
brown envelope in his pocket.
Q Loose cheeks? A. Ye, sf.
Q. They were bMno   hecks? AL Yes, eir.
Q. Did you ever notice hmh carrying a small di —beo4d in his
pocket? A. I never saw him carry it, although he may have,
withont my knowing t.
Q. Mr. MeClave has testified here that ever ng that he had
n that safe, his books, relating to hi3 business transactions and
his check-books and return vouhers, were all destroyed by the
fire; do you know anything about whether or not that is true?
A: I do not think it is; that is all I can say; the books, I know,
were over in the office on the Twenty-first street side, and Mr.
McOlave -these are the only books I ever did see.
Chairmain Lexow. —Did Mr. Mcflave tettify that his vouoher
were kept in the isMde of the steel 'afe?




1233


Mr. Gf —No; he did ot tetif to that
enator Saxton —My rewootectm  s hat hesal his blai
mere in the steel sate and thereby they, were preserved.
Mr. Goff- And the    caei were outside and th; we
burned up.
Chairman Lexow.-I thoght you were adi       the w:m1e
Whether or no he remenbered that he ket the kuthaers In Ie
steel safe inside of the large safe
Mr. Goff.-Yes; and the witness said he did not kaw. I
merely asked that questin for a pua pce,
By Senator Saxtoa
Q. You say that you saw him oopyig from the bos that
were burned?- A. No, sir; they were not burned; they were legible; they were saorched; tiy were more. soaed, so the covers.rere bulged out.
Q. The oovers were not destroyed, then; by the fire? A. No
sir; they were blackened;,they were damage
Q. Dld you see the mside of the boolk? A. I saw the iside
at one; he was coging one and I just looked at it for a nrmonm
Q Oaud you readiy read itf? A. Yes, sr; I could see the
figure on there, what he was copying off into te new book
Q Oold you see whether any of the leaves of the book.W-e
burned? A. No, sir; the ones that I saw were not burned
Q. I mean of bis one book that you saw? A. No, sir 4
wer not, not that I saw.
Q. You could not see whether any of tiem were buned? A. I
d& not think they were burned; I do not think they were even
worched; I think it was mote water than anything ele; the
book was of that size (illustrating), and it was awollen upto that
size; the covers bulged out.
By Mr. Goff:
-. You knew, after you left this courtroom the other day, of
the charges against you which Mr. McClave had made puMic
against you in this courtroom, did you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you knew that he charged you with being a forger, a
thief and a sooundrel? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You heard those words from his lips, did you not? A. I
heard them right there.
Q. And you also heard the reports of the subsequent proceedings before this committee in the newspapers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And with the knowledge of these accusations being made
aginst you, you being a thief and a forger, and that certin
lbaek]  were produced here in evidence which Mr. r      e
r       1'5




123L


zharged to be forgeries, you came back into the State and testil
Aed voluntarily before this committee? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Knowing that these charges and these accusations would
be brought against you? A. Yes, sir.
Senator O'Connor.- Did he not come back with te assurance
that he would not be interfered with?
Mr. Gof.-Yes; but what I wish to have the witness state
Is that he had a knowledge of these accusations that would be
made against him.
Senator O'Connor. —We all know that Mr. Nicoll got up in
court and stated, while the witness was on the' stand, or immediately after, that they would prove him to be a thief and a
scoundrel and a forger; he stood right up and said that.
Mr. Nicoll.- That is right, and I have kept my contract
Q. Is there anything that occurs to your memory now, touciing the testimony that.you have told here, which you wish to
make any correction in, or any explanation in regard to it? A.
Well, yesterday, I think, I stated about the Farnsworth matter
and the McDonald case; Mr. Nicoll was asking me one question,
and I think Senator Lexow was asking another, and you were
asking one at the same time, and I was somewhat confused; the
Farnsworth and McDonald case; Charley Lapham was the one
who had the McDonald case; he was the one who wrote me first
and sent me a draft; he is the one that all passed through; the
Farnsworth case is the one that no one had anything to do
with in Canandaigua butt Congressman Raines
Q. No one but Mr. Raines? A. No one but Mr. Raines.
Q. Did you see in the public press what purported to be letters from you to Charley Lapham? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In relation to the McDonald case? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were those letters as printed, correct? A. I think so. if I
remember correctly about them.
Q. You did write letters to Charley Lapham about that matter? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there anything else that you wish to say, touching your
testimony here or any other statement that you wish to make
to this committee, touching your testimony? A. Nothing, but
that everything that I have stated so far as the money transactions between Mr. McClave and the applicants and myself
have been as true as I could state it; so far as. the dates are coneerned, I am not positive about the dates; that is the only thing
that mixes me up in Mr. Nicoll's cross-examination.
Q. But you are clear about the transactions? A I am just
as clear about the transactions as though they occurred yesterday; I trusted implicitly in everything that Mr. McOlave told




123- 5


me, and T. have written letters to hiiand he has proved to~ be
a scoundrel himself and a liar; anud I think I have the samte
privilege of taking the stand againest -him that he had of tkn
the stand against me; when I first testified, I testified without
any pyejudice; I did not want to appear against him.
Q. Let me asl- you, that is but fair to you, were you awai*
whexi you were brought into this courtroom, that you were goin
to bc put on the stand? A. No, ir no more than that I a
going to Kamskatk this afterm~on. I
By Senator O'Connor:
Q.Were you a leader or oaqtain of any of thesve potltea
forces in the various districts in this city? A. No, sir.
Q. You were constantly interesting yourself in the sVppobt.
rnent of policemen, were you not? A. Yes, sir; the only thing
was Mr. Mc~lave being a Republican, and I a Democrat, he toldme to keep cl ear of politics.
Q. During all this time you were constantly interesting your.
self in getting men on the police force? A. If I was not interesting myselfl, people were intereting themselv'es in me.
Q. You were talking with your father-in-la~w about them? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Did he, ever suggest to you that it was decidedly imuproper,
you being his son-in-law, to interfere with these matters that
would naturally bring him uinder suspicion, and you alsoT A.
No, sir, he never referred to it in that light at aIll
By Mr. Goiff:
Q.Do you remeinlier when Mr. McClIave was reapht'eda *j~
Mayor IGrant? A. Yes, air.
Q. Do you remember the electioun before his reappointment,
when Mayor Grant was a candidate for mxayor? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Mc~lave urge you to vote for Mayor Grant? ~~
Ile asked me who my brother and I were going to vote for, axid
I told him I did not think that I would vote for Grant for a
second term.
Q. Do you remember the morning of election, was there anything done by M3fr. Mc~lave? A. He then, at that time, said,
"As long as you, are a Democrat, you 'had better vote for him.;
and I said, "No; I prefer Wr. Hewitt for mayor"-.Mr. Hewitt,
I think, was running -at any rate I preferred an-other candidate - and he said, "You had better vo-te the Democratic ticket,
and tell your brother to vote that, too;" but on election moiru*i
iug, when I went dcwn stairs, the ballots, or a set of ballodfrr
were alongside of my plate at the table; I opened them and
looked at them -




1236


Q. What were those ballots? A. They were for Grant;
By Senator Bradley:.Q. A straight ticket? A. Yes, sir; and I voted it.
By Chairman Leow:
Q Were you politically active at all, during any part of th
time? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have any influence with any political organization; 
A. No; I did not ally myself to any political organization; but I
was known as a Democrat.
Q, Was the sole and only influence that you had in this city
In the police department, or any other department, the influence
that you had as being the son-in-law of COonmmissioner McClave?
A. What little I had was that; that was all.
Q. And was he at all, at any time, active in securing you that
influence —did he introduce you around as his son-in-law? A.
Yes, sir; whenever he introduced me, and wherever he inro
iuced me, I was introduced by him as his son-in-law.
1 y Mr. Goff;
Q. On election day did you say anything to Mr. McOlave abot
the ballots that you found folded alongside of your plate? A.
Yes, sir; I told, him that night at dinner; he got home early; he
generally goes to headquarters on election day in the afternoon;
and I told him at the dinner-table that I voted the tickets all
right.
Q. What did. he say? A. He said, "I guess he is elected,"
something like that; I do not remember what the conversation
was, but I told him I voted them.
Q. Do you remember a dinner that Mr. McClave gave in honor
of his being reappointed by Mayor Grant? A. Yes, sir; he gave
a dinner to hisMr. Goff.- Never mind.
Mr. Nicoll.-Is not this beyond the scope of the legitimate
inquiry?
Chairman Lexow.-The question is withdrawn,
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. During your sojour n n Connecticut-  A. I have not been
in Connecticut at all.
Q. It was not Connecticut, then? A. No, sir.
Q. Well, during your sojourn out of the State, the Sentte oomimitee went on and Mr. Raines, a Congressman, a Member of
Congress from this State, from the Canandaigua district, came
before the committee and with the privilege of the committee
took the witness stand; you testified yesterday with regard to




=123


Mr. Ralnes tihat you had met Mr. Rainep at the Mortyn Mouse
in this city, did you not? A. Yes, sir; I think he always stops
there.
Q. And that you had a conversaition with him at the Mortof
House? A. Yes, sir.
Q In regard to a policeman to be appointed urpon the poibA,
force? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he told you that he had given Mr. McCla~ve a sum of
money? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That Mr. Rain -s told yol That hve had tziven Mr. MicClave a
sum of money? A. Mr. halmcs met me -
Q. Do you recollect testifying to that effect? A. I answer yes.
Q. Listen to this:
"I do not know Mr. Granger, though I know his father and
mother; I never had any conversation with Mr. G-ranger in regard
to the appointment of any policeman whatever; I never told himi
that I had given Mr. McClave any sum of money for any aipp1ointmen't, and I never did give Mr. McClave any sum of mne, and
I do not hnow Mfr. McClave; I do not know that I ever spoke to
him, although it is possible."
Q. Are you telling the truth, or is Congressman Rakhues telling
the truth? A. I think Mr. Raines is mistake.
Q. He is not telling the truth, the t, is he?
Chairman Lexow. — 1That Is a conousion; you need not answer
that questior.
Mr. Gloff.- No; I think that ia so
By Mr. Nicoll:
Q. Is your statement true, then? A. Yes, sir.
Chairman Lexow.- The letter that you read from tI wehl
Me witness wrote to Mr. MoClave, in reference to one of &9
appoiuntments, asking him to do him a sevice, is that in evidebcen?
Mr. Nicoll- We ought to have them both in evidence.
Chairman Lexow.-T1f they are nort in evidence we ought to
have them in evidence.
Mr. Giff.- Mr. Schram, will you take thie witness, Mr. Grangw,
away.
Chairman T&exow.-The witness is placed in the custody of the
sergeant-at arms.
Mr. Nicoll.- Are you through with the witnessa Granger?
Mr. Goff.-,-Yes, for the presenL
Mr. Nicoll.- The cobnuilttee  hos dscwharged the wtfine,
Granger?
Mr. Goff.-Foir the present the examination is eladed; I may
not be through wWi'- him; I may call him again
Chairman Texow.r-As I wMerPtarsa  lid th w& sss is st il
under the protection ot the committee.




123a


Mr. Got- '1~e witness is still under tie subpoena of the oogm
ui~t~ee.
Mr. ~Ndicol.- In order to make the record complete ini. regard
to the witness Grazger, I want to put in the correspondence
which led up to my letter, which in..-,uc _d the returxn of the witness,
azd wbt was reedd by Mr. Goff. I do not care to interrpt his -
examination.
Mr. Goff.- I read the lIoter and lit is on the reocrd.
Chairman iexorw.- Why not ceai-der the correspondence in
evidente without Its being put on the recordl. It will only
incumnber the reciod.
Mr. Niooll.- I was cinurged and my client was charged in the
pub&lic prinfts of this city, and oounsel intimated ii; and the committee, even with its impartial view, may have thought that we
had intended to, or that we were keeping this witness out of the
State, and we -
Ch airman Lexow.- The witness has sworn that you did not
keep birm out of the State; is not that the best evidence that you
did not keep him out of the State, by any aotual Violence or by
any other reasan?
Mr. Nicoill.- What I wwan to say is that what we most desired
at all times, is what we have just had, the presence of the witness
in the State, and so far as our having anything t& do with-it, we
did everything in our power to induce Mr. Goff to get him back
into the State, and I want to show the corresponde-nice which led
up to the fitnal letter of May 30, 1894, which Mr. Goff read yesterday.
Chairman Lexow. —You have gtiven the substaoce of It.
Mr. Nicoll.- I do not care whefher it Is on the record or not,
but I want to show the committee the correspondence to let them
see whether it should be made public or not (Handitg awrrespondenee to the committee.)
(Thaiman Lexow.- It may be marked in evldence, without its
bein.g transcribed oui the record.
Corres'xmlen-e marked Exhi~bit No.A1, June 6, 1894.
Mr. Goff.- Mr. Nicoll has been proven to be a very bad prophet
beca.use he announced so certainly that he and his client, Mr.
Moflave, )had a-greed thit Mir. Granger would never appear before
this eomnmittee again, that I would suggelst to my friend, Mr.
Nicoll, that when he starts in to prophesy again that he be more
certain ot his facts and of his man.
Mr. NIkoih- I sometimes make mistakes. I am not infaliible
like my frfed, Mr. GaM.




1239
James Tbiatcer, ealled o  beaf      the State, bei g dilJ
sworn, testified as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Moss:
Q. Where do you live? A. Forty-one West Twenty-eweu
treet
Q. Are you in business there? A. No, sir.
Q. What is your occupation? A. Siperintendent of a bachelr
apartment-house.
Q. Were you ever in the saloon busine? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whereabouts? A At One Hundred and Seventy-seventh
street and Third avenue.
Q. What precinct is that in? A. I think it is the Tirty-four
precinct.
Q. Who was the captain in that precinct while._u were there?
A. Captain Stephenson.
Q. All the time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was that? A. Three years ago.
Q. Give the time as nearly as you can when you kept t&a
saloon? A. That would be in 1891.
Q. Is that the beginning of the time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you moved away when? A. I moved away Hsne
time in 1892.
Q. Were you acquainted with Officer Michael Brady? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Was he attached to that precinct? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In what capacity? A. As wardman. 
Q. How well did you know him? A. Not very well; I hardly
ever saw him or spoke to him.
Q. You did see him sometimes, did you? A. Yes, sir; I saw
him sometimes.
Senator Saxton. —Does it appear what tt  wardman is, or
what his function is?
Mr. Moss. —I do not know that it does.
Mr. Goff. —Not specifically on the records, but It is such an
inst.tution in New York that
Senator Saxton.-I would like to have it appear at some
time what the function of a wardman is.
Mr. Nicoll. —I might furnish you with a copy of the rules 
the police department
Mr. Goff.-We recognize the existence of a wardman a we
recognize the existence of a clown.
Mr. Moss.- How many conversations did you have with Offlem
Michael Brady?
The Witness.- I do not remember.
Q. Where did you have the coniereatlons w1h him h?.
Wherever we happened to meet.




1240
Q Can you recall any of them? A. No, sir.
Q. Was your saloon ever open on Sunday-I will withdraw
that for a moment, and I will say to the witness that anything
you testify to, concerning your actions before this committee, can
not be used against you; I think the chairman will so instruct
you.
Chairman Lexoiw.-Any testimony that you may give will not
be used against you in any proceeding hereafter. Any testimony given before an investigating committee can not be used
against you in the trial of any other cause.
Mr. Mosa —The only liability which you are under is the liability of not telling the truth.
Senator O'Connor.-A man who testifies to the giving of a
bribe can not be indicted for the crime of bribery or prosecuted
for the testimony that he may give on the investigation, except
that he may be prosecuted in case of perjury.
Mr. Moss.- His entire testimony, as I understand it, is privileged.
Q. Now, I ask you to locate any conversations that you had
with Michael Brady?
Mr. Ransom.-The witness had better be instructed by the
committee as to what his rights and privileges are, instead of
being instructed by counsel.
A. I do not remember, really, what he did talk about
Q I am asking you to locate any place where you remember
having had any conversation with him? A. I have talked to
him on the street and in the barber shop, and he has been in
my saloon.
Q. Now, I will come back to the question; was your saloon
ever open on Sunday? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was business ever done there on Sunday? A. It was
done, but very little.
Q. Well, there was business done on Sunday? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In violation of the excise law? A. Yes, sir.
0. At any of the conversations with Officer Michael Brady,
did you ever give him anything? A. I never gave him anything myself; my bartender may have done so.
Q. 1)o you know whether your bartender did or did not? A.
I inmlaine that he dfd.
Mr. lhansoin.- I move to strike out that answer.
Mr. Moss.- I asked him for the circnumsiances of the case.
Chairman Lexow. —Ask him what he knows aboat it
Q. What ground have you for your belief that your barkeeper
ever paid money to him?
Mr. Ransom.-The witness has not stated that he had any
beief; he said that he inagined so.




1241


Charinaon Lexorw.- Wlsk the witness what he knows about his
barkeeper having paid any money.
Q. What do you know about your barkeeper having paid money
to Michael Brady? A.. If the cash ha~ppaned to be short I wud
say to 1dm, "What did you do wfth that?" and he would say, "I
gave it to tids one, or that one, or I paid it out to this or that,"
and once in a while said gave Brady $5.
Q. Once in a while he said that he gave Brady $5? A. Yes,
Q.;]iDid you know any other pocioemncn there? A. No, sb.
Mr. Ransom.- Does the commIttee really intend to take Cd~i
testimonv?
Chairman Lexow.- It is in for what It is worth.
M-fr. Ransom.- I have- been constantly trying to object zzmd txy6
Ing to keep it ont.
Chairman Lexow.;- I think he has connected it to some exteat
by saying that he saw the barkeeper.
Mr. Ransomm- He did not say that he snw the barkeeper give
him anything?
Mr. MNoss.-He stated that the saloon was open "n-d doing
lbusiness on Sanday and that he knew the wardman and had
conversatilore with him, and that he has talked about the shlortage
of casb, and that the barkeeper smid that he had given Officer
Brady money.
Q. Did you see Brady after any of these coinversations with
youur bartender? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever s'peak to Officer Brady about it? A. I never
did.
Q. You did not mention that subject to hMm? A. NI~o sir; I dlid
not speak to him afbout it.
Q. H-Tow frequently was such a statement made to you by your
bartender that incuey had been given to,Brady?
Mr. Ransom.-I object to that
Mr. Moss.- That very line of examination was continued In
the examination by the committee on crime in 18715 and carried
right along.
Senator O'Con-nor.- It is for the purpose of showing a condition of affairs that was publicly known; it might be that the
barkeeper was stealing the money hihmself, and giving this as
an ecius
Mr. Mess.- It might be if this saloon wns not open on Sunday
and this man in pleasant relations with Officer Brady.
Mr. Raaom.c- I understand, perhaps not very cleary and distknotly, but I think I do fairly the object of this inquiry, and it is
the intention of the committee to extend the rules or at least.
It you please, to overthrow the -ordinary rules of, evideD ce, and
I amn not 1lc re to o1-'- as we all would do as lawyers on tbie fW




1242


of a ca-se, but thiere are some questions that are so absolutely
ridiculous and absurd that I must objec-t; they are askin~g this
witness to fasten upon our clients- an attempt of brib?ry, that
this barkeeper miay have taken this money himself, and that
ths wilness should not testify to what the ba~rkree todhmn
the only exc-use or justification for that sort of evidence which Mr.
Moss would not inq-uire about in the trial of an case is that -the
witness says -that sometimes his saloon was open on Sundiay and
that the cash account, was short, and it is proposed to prove by
the barkeeper -that the cash account was made short by his givIn"r some of it to the police officer.
Mr. Moss.- I would suggest to the cimnittee that I am not
through with this witneaw yet; he is not -a willing witness, and
when I go a little further it many be m re a~pparent. Such a
motion as this ought to be o~kswrrved.
Cihairman Lexow.- We had better take the te3timony, subject
to your notion to strike out if It is not connected.
Senator O'Connor.-We want to mio.:d-Nct this ~_nvestigratiorn, do
th.at when we get through, Ihe people generally will have confidence in Ihe testimony that ha~s been adduced. If we admit
purely hearsay testimony, land put it in the Tovwer of any coneiidernizde number of people to clalim that our cocusins are
'base  onuwratdstatements, which is hearsay testimony,
we weaken the whole force -of ourr work here, and we ought, as
nearly as powsible, to confine ourselves to those rulf-f thet~
experieence has demonstrated oruight to be adopted in all inquiries
ot this kind.
Mr. Goff.-This testimony will go to show that this -witness
acquiesced in the payment of moneys to the detoctive or offcer,
for this reason;- if he died not acquir —se-e in the payment,and reorgnize it as a thing to be done, in ord-er to protect himself for opening on S-unday, he toiuld have called his bartender to an aecount
for the payment of money to a person mnauthoribed to receive it
Senator O'Connor.- That might be, but you have proven this
state of facts that pu(Iic rumor here in New Yowk is that these
policemen not only take money from houIIsce of illrermte and permit them to NvIolate the law, but they niso take it from saloons.
'Tqat is the public rumor. You have proven that the saloon was
open on Sunday and that the cash account was sghort, and.4f this
man acquiesced in it, without proce-eding agaiist his bartender, I
think that preszents a -pretty strong chain of circumstances and I
would like to see it we~kened by our taking testimony which"
Aen  o incub..ate an officer on the heairs4ay fti  atne.i
loeto me as Tif the onus was on the otter side.
MT. Goff.- In order -to show the acquiescence, we mmut -,howv




1243


that his agent is paying money to a person for a certain purpcBcs
If the agent had not the power and authoalty to pay money to that
perosn for a oertain purpose, it would have been the duty of the
employer to disicharge that bartender and call him to an account
for it.
Chairman Lrexow.- Ycu have shown that; do you not thin
that all the additional testimony you. need Is to show that Offier
Brady was in here on Sunday?
Mr. Goff.- Well, yes; go on.
Mir. Ransom.- Then the objection is sustained?
Chairman Lexow.- The hearsay part of It is stricken out or
disallowed. Now show that the offloer was there.
Senator Saxton.- The bartender, when his cash is short,
declares that he has given the money to an officer. It may be to
conceal his own aot.
Mr. Moms.- I am fighting for the general -principle. The conk
mittee must remember that we did not know what this witness
was -going to swear to. I have not talked to Wim. I have not
had a conversatkrn with this man, bat I am creditably informed
that he has paid money to Officer Brady.
Chairman Lexoiw.-Very well; show that Officer Brady, wan
there.
Q. Did you retain that same bartender in your employment
after this Shortage that you speak f? A. Yes, s.
Q. Did this policeman, Brady, ever come into your saloon? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. After this shortage? A. Yes, air.
Q Did youl have relations with any other policeman tn fte
predn4ct? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever make a statement to any one that you had
paid money to Milchael  Brady himself? A. Nn, drl; I do mit
think so.
Q. Do you know George htoFadden? A. I have heard his
name, but I do not remember him.
Q. George McFadden of Third avenue and One Hundred, and
Seven~ty-niuth street?  A. He may have been at the saloon; I
remember7 the name, but I do not remember the man.
Q. Will you say that you dil not tell Gec rge McFadden, in the
presence of individuals, that you were compelled to -pay protection money to Milchael Brady, the wardnanm for Captain Stephenson? A. I do nortthink go.
Q. Will you swear that you did not say that? A. Yes; I think
that I would swear that I dii not.
Q. What do you mean by isaying that you think -on did not?
Senator O'Connor.- Y on know whfether you said that or not
you are a man of intelligence.




1244
T 6hairman Tixow-.The suppreasson of a fadot I jit 9s Ba a
a fdlse ttemen o fact, if you are asked about Iit
A. I mghht have said it, but I don't remembeirit, knowing tt
iMr. Mlls, the barkeeper, gave up the monme  j
By Senator O'Oonnor
Q. Wby do you say yo might have said it, if you did not have
any grounds for saying it; why can you not say it is true or falsef
A. I suppose the bartender gave the money to Brady, and I
might have repeated it
Q. Do you know that you did? A. Noi I dxa't remember a
og it.
By OGhalrmna Lexoaw
Q. Will you swear you dd not say it?  I would not swear
ihat I did or that I did not
Q. Have you no reoollectio  about it? A. Noo  whatever
By Mr. Moss:
Q. You made use of the expresson as 8I ua.rttoyo  gar
it; what do you mean by that? A. Give it up, as you give up —
give up a thing; givinig it away.
Q. Why should the bartender give the money to Brady? A~
I don't know, because I know so little about the saloon business,
I did not stop in it long.
Q. Were you present at the saloon yourself? A. Sometimes
in the evening.
Q. Was the saloon, business in charge of your bartender nost
of the time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You never questioned the statement of the bartender that
he had paid the money for tiat purpose? A. No, Air.
Q. For what purpose did you suppose the bartender had, paid
the money? A. I have always heard that you have to give something, and I supposed Mills gave something.
Q. You always knew that you had to give something for what?
Mr. Ransom.-He did not say that he knew; he said that he
heard.
Q What did you hear? A. That he had to give something to
ie police or wardman, whatever it was; '-was not really in the
saloon business more than six months altogether, for during the
time at first, I was living on Long Island.
Q Was there any oonversation between you and the bartender
about the purpose of ipaying this money? A. No, sir; I never
asked him any questliona




1245
Q You smply took t as           of     e dliii iayt i y  t
pay he money? A Yes, sir.
Q And acquiesced in the pajment mae by the btener 
f. Yes, sir. 
By Senator Saton:, Q You say that Officer Brady was in your saloon sometimes T
IL Yes, sir.
Q Was he there frequently? A. I very seldom saw the maa
there; when he came in, he adrank soda water, or ginger ale.
Did you ever see him there on Sunday? A. No, sir
Q Did you ever see him about there on Sunday? A. No, sia
Q. How often did this circumstance ocour during the  e you
were there? A. I do not remember.
Q. You can tell something about it? A I could not tell yom
Q. Can you not tell sonrething about whether it was hal *
Idwen times or moe? A. Six or eight times may be.
By Senator Bradleys
Q. Was he there once a month   X No siri not as oten    _
By Senator Saxtnm
Q. Then it did not occur every Sunday? S No, sir.
Q. Did it occur every Sunday that you kept open? AL No, st
Q. Did you keep open every Sunday'? A. Frm the trade _
had there, we might as well have shut the door.
Q. There was trade, though? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was there any interference by the police? 3 No, sT,
going into the saloon was like entering your private house.
By Mr. Moss:
Q. You say that Mr. Brady went Into the saloon; whlt did 1i
do there? A. He drank soda water and ginger ale.
Q. Was he in uniform? A. I never saw him in uniform.,
Q. What did he say? A. I have not the slightest idea.'
Q. You do not recollect? A. No, sir.
Oross-examination by Mr. Ransom:
Q Did you ever see Mr. Moss before this m.or.gt. ^
air.
Q. Or Mr. Goff? A No, sir.
Q When were you subpoenaed?     L This morning.
Q. By whom? A. Some young man gave It to mne     1   1 aobi
tinw who he was.




1246
Q. Wat is your business? A. Superintendent of a badhelk
apartment-house.
Q. You were in the saloon business previous to becoming supem.
hitendent of the apartment-house? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long were you in the saloon business  A. About 12
montha
Q. What was your business before that? A Superintendent
of the South Side Club, Long Island.
Q. Were you engaged in the saloon business on your own
count? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I understood you to say that you rarely ever saw Officer
Brady? A. Very seldom.
Q. Never had any conversation with him? A. On the street
I may have said, " Good morning," or when he came in the saloon.
Q. By conversation, you mean that you greeted him? A. Yes,
sir; passed the time of day with hinm
Q. You never paid him any money? A. Not myself; no, sir; I
did not.
Q. Did you authorize your barkeeper to pay him any money?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you authorize anybody to pay him money? A. No, sir,
By Mr. Moss:
Q. What was the name of the bartender? A. His name we
Edward Mills.
Q. Where does he live? A. Somewhere up on Lexington
menue.
Q. Can you not tell where, on Lexington avenue? '. Between
Forty-second and Porty-third streets, in what they call the Vaiderbilt flats.
Q. What business is he in now? A. Night watchman.
Q. Were you a member of the Retail Liquor Dealers' Assoeoia
tion? A. No, sir.
Q. Had your bartender authority to make running payments
for the expenses of the business? A Yes, sir.
Q. Did he have authority to pay the bills that came in? A.
He had authority to do anything he wanted, because when I
first opened the place I was on Long Ialand and he ran it entirely
himself.
By Chairman Lexow:
Q. Did you give him any special autbiorify tn words eo mni
ry iayment to the police? A. No, sir.
Q. How many times did he make those payment? A. It might
have been six or eight times.




1247
L           -
Mfr. Goff.- Tena Schwartz will take the stand.
LenA COoden, called on behalf of the State, being duly wworn,
testified as follows:
Chaim=nan Lexow. —You understand that in giving any testimony before tuis comunittee that that testimony can nod be used
agahiust you in any proceedings, and if you have been guilty of
bribery or corruption and you make that admiLsion upon the
stand here. it can not be used against you anywhere else and you
* can not be prosecuted for it
The Witness.- Thank you, gentlemen, I hope not, becaase I
have paid enoough money for It
ihAirman Lexow.- But it you swear falsely, if you, tell a story
on the witness stand, that in perjury, and you can be proiecuated
for that.
The Witness.- I understand thAt, gentlemen.
Direct eKran1.tioi by Mr. Jerome:
Q. You are a prisoner in the di~ty prison, are you? A. Yeg
Sir.
Q. In the Tombs? A. Yes, c
Q Chit rged with keeping a disorderly house? A- Yes, sir; and
I did keep it.
Q. Where did yon keep Ift? A. No. 378 Bast Houston street
Q. When did you begin to keep a disorderly honse Where? A.
September 24, 1893.
Q. Did you hare the whole house? A. Yes, sir.
Q. fow large a howue was it?  A. Ther6e were efgfrt rooms
In it.
Q. How memy girls did yon have there? A I hnd four giM
there.
Q Did you see any pke~men   before you opened the house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whom did you first see connected with the police departnient? A. Ward Detectives Brennan and Farrell.
Q. WN'hat precinct was that? A. I will not tell you, but T think
It is the 11th, gentlemen.
Q. Who was the captain of thist precinct? A. I am tolling you
he is there yet, I think, the same one.
Q. Did you see Brennan and Farrell together?  A.Yes, sir.
Q. Where did -you see them? A. in the -saIoon warows from the
station-house at the corner of Sheriff street
- QW Whose saloon is that; do you remember the nqmiber? A.
No; I didn't Tay any aittention to the name.
Q. flow did you come to go there to meet them? A. Through
the party that I rented the house from, Mr. Miller, a butcher
down stairs, be kept the store, and I got from him - he made me




1248
acqluahited anT my husbind acquainted with these fiwo ward
detectives one aftermoon and I gave the money to them.
Q. Where is your husbanI -now? A. He left me through
Officer FarrelL
Q. Did you go with your husband to this saloon across the
way? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you met Officers Brennan and Farrell there, did you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q When was it? A. In the evening, about 7 o'clock; between
6 and 7 o'clock generally, I used to meet them.
Q. Tell what Officers Brennan and Wrrell said to you and what i
you and your husband said to them? A. Mr. Brennan and Mr.
Farrell, I oaane up to them with my huosband and I said I am to
rent a house; I amn keeping it for the purpose of a disorderlyhouse, will you give me a permit, gentlemen, and they said yes, I
will give you a permit, only you ought to know by going in and
opening a house like that, what you have got to pay; I said, 1 I
don't know; make your own arrangement," and he says, "The
lowest price, if you open a house and not keep many girls; not
more than four or six, is $500;" I walked up from Mr. Brennan
and never said anything much to him, and I called my husband
outside and I said to him, "Morris, what shall I do; where will I
get $500; I have not got it; I have got at the most, $100, or $150,"
and he said, " Dear wife, I will tell you where we can rent the
money, and offer the money we have to pay it for;" I said, "If I
asll pay any money in my own house like that, then I have to
pay the bills," and I said to my husband, " I will go down and see
Mr. Scrlesinger. 155 Park Row, and we went down there and
loaned $500.
Q. You mean you borrowed $500' A. Yes, sir; and gave them
a mortgage on the house.
Q. You mean you gave a mortgage on the furniture? A. Yes,
sir; the furniture and everything; then I went to Mr. Brennan
and Mr. Farrell and I gave it to them.
Q. When was that, how long after? A. The 24th of September
I moved in the house, and on the 29th of September I opened tie
housz and I gave them the money.
Q. You gave tiem the money on that day? A. That week:
that very same week; I moved in on Monday.
By Senator OCornmor:
Q. Did these officers know that you had to borrow the momsy?
A. Yes, sir; I told them a little about it
Q. What did you tell thim about it?    A. I told Officer
Brernan,. "Could not you let me have it for a little less, for I
have to loan the money; I have not got the money; I have got


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