R E P 0 Et, T REPORT OF TI[E DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF TIE CONVENTION C O N V E N T I O N FOR TEE REVISION OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF INDIANA. 1850. H. FOWLER, OFFICIAL REPORTER TO THE CONVENTION. A. H. BROWN, PRINTER TO THE CONVENTION. INDIANAPOLIS, 1ND., 1850. THE CONVENTION. REPORTED FOR THE CONVENTION H. FOWLER, CHIEF REPORTER. MONDAY, Oct. 7, 1850. Hancock and Madison-THOMAs. D. WALThe Convention assembled in the Hall of POLE. the House of Representatives, at 10 o'clock, Huntngton, Kosciusko and Whitley-ELiAs A. M., and was called to order by the Hon. uniRAn CHARLES H. TEST, Secretary of State, in pur- gton and Whitley-JACOB WONDERsuance of an act of the last General Assembly, LICH. Jackson and Scott-JOHN F. CARR. to provide for the call of a Convention of the Jackson and tt HN C R People of the State of Indiana, to revise, amend, Lake, Laporte and Porter-SAMUEL I. ANor alter, the Constitution of said State. THONY. Lake and Porter-DANIEL CRUMBACKEEi. The names of the members of the Conven- a Fulton and St. Joseph-HUGH Ltion being called over by the Hon. CHARLES H. LEa. TEST, Secretary of State, by Senatorial Dis- Marshall, Fulton and Stark-AMzI L. WHEEtricts and Counties, the following gentlemen LE. appeared, and the oath to support the Constitu- Miami and Wabash-HARRIoN KENDALL. tion of the United States, and, to the best of Monroe and Brown —DANIEL READ. their ability respectively, to perform the duties Ohio and Switzerland-ABEL C. PEPPER and of their office as Delegates to this Convention, DANIEL KELSO. was administered to them by the Hon. ISAAC Orange and Crawford-WILLIAM F. SHERBLACKFORD, a Judge of the Supreme Court of ROD. the State: QOwen and Green-DAVID M. DonsoN. From the district of Allen, Adams and Wells Parke and Vermillion-OLIVER P. DAVIS. -JAMES W. BORDEN. Perry, Spencer and Warrick-JoHN P. DUNN. Bartholomew and Jennings —HIRAM PRA- Posey and Vanderburg-JAMES LOCKHART. THER. Sullivan, Clay and Vigo-WILLIAM R. HADBenton, Jasper, Pulaski and White-JONA- DON. THAN HARBOLT. Warren, Benton, Jasper and White-ROBT. Blackford, Jay and Randolph-NATHAN B. C. KENDALL. HAWKINS. Wells and Adams-ERASTUS K. BASCOM. Blackford and Jay-DIXON MILLIGAN. County of Allen-ALLEN HAMILTON. Carroll and Clinton-HIRAi ALLEN. Bartholomew-ZACHARIAH TANNEHILL. Cass, Howard and Pulaski-HORACE P. BID- Boone-MARKc A. DUZAN and WILLIAM MCDLE. LEAN. Cass and Howard-GEORGE A. GORDEN. Brown-SHADRACH CHANDLER. Clinton and Tipton-CORNELIUS J. MILLER Carroll-ROBERT H. MILROY.,and STEPHEN SIMS. Clark-JAMES G. READ, THOMAS W. GIBSON DeKalb, Noble and Steuben-RoBERT WORK. and JACOB FISHER. DeKalb and Steuben-EDWARD R. MAY. Clay-FRANCIS B. YOCUM. Dubois, Gibson and Pike-SMITH MILLER. Crawford-SAMUEL PEPPER. Elkhart and Lagrange-JOsEPH H. MATHER. Daviess-ELIAS S. TERRY. Fayette and Union-DANIEL TREMBLY. Dearborn-WILLIAM S. HOLMAN, JOHNSON Grant and Delaware-WALTER MARCH. WATTS and JOHN D. JOHNSON. 4 Decatur-JAMES B. FOLEY and JOSEPH ROB- Sullivan-BENJAMIN WOLFE. INSON. Tippecanoe-JoEL B. MCFARLAND. J OIN PETDubois-BENJAMIN R. EDMONSTON. TIT and OTHNIEL L. CLARK. Delaware-DAVID KILGORE. Union-BENJAMIN F. BROOKBANK. Elkhart-WALTER E. BEACH. Vermillion-THOMIAS CHENOWITH. Fayette-Ross SMILEY and WILLIAMS W. Vigo-CFROMIWELL W. BARBOUR, GRAFTRON THOMAS. F. COOKERLY and THOMAS I. BOURNE. Floyd-PHTNEAs M. KENT and HENRY P. Wabah-VWILLIAM STEELE. THORNTON. Warren-JAMES R. MI. BRYANT. Fountain-JOSEPH COATS and JOSEPH Ris- Warrick-CHRISTOPHER C. GRAHAM. TINE. WVashing'ton-JOHN I. MORRISON, EzrE:z Franklin-GEORGE BERRY, SPENCER WILEY D. LOGAN and RODOLPHUS SCHOONOVER. and GEORGE G. SHOUP. Wayne-JOHN S. NEvWIAN, JAMES RARIDEN. Gibson-SAMUEL HALL. OTHNIEL BEESON and JOHN BEARD. Grant-BENONI C. HOGIN. The Delegates were all present but Messrs. Green-THOMAS BUTLER. JONES of Bartholomew, CONDUIT of Morgan. Hamilton- ABERT COLE and HAY1iMOND~ W. COLFAX of St. Joseph, RITCHEY of Johnson, CLARK. TAYLOR of Laporte, HovEY of Posey, and Hancock-GEORGE TAGUE. BLYTHE of Vanderburgh. Harrison-JOHN ZENOR and JOHN MATHES. Hendricks-HENRY G. TODD and CHRISTIAN THE ORGANIZATION. C. NAVE. The SECRETARY OF STATE now anHenry-ISAAc KINDLEY, DANIEL MOWRER nounced that a quorum of the Convention was and GEORGE H. BALLINGALL. present, and ready to proceed to the businesss Jackson-SAMUEL P. MOONEY. of organization, according to the pleasure of the Jefferson-MILTON GREGG, MICHAEL G. BRIGHT Convention. and WILLIAM M. DUNN. Mr. OWEN offered for adoption the followJennings-JOHN L. SPANN. ing resolution: Johnson-FRANKLIN HARDIN. Resolved, That this Convention now proceed Knox-JAMES DICK and WILLIS W. HITT. to elect a President by viva voce vote. Kosciusko-JAMES GARVIN. The question having been announced by the Lagrange-JOHN B. HOWE. Secretary of StateLaporte-JoHN B. NILES. Mr. PETTIT proposed the following as a Lawrence-GEORGE W. CARR and MELCH- substitute for the resolution of the gentleman ERT HELMER. from Posey: Madison-JOHN DAVIS. Resolved, That GEO. W. CARE, Delegate Marion-ALEXANDER F. MORRISON, DAVID from the county of Lawrence, be chosen PresWALLACE, DOUGLASS MAGUIRE and JACOB P. ident of this Convention. CHAPMAN. Mr. OWEN accepted the substitute. Martin-THoMAS GOOTEE. Mr. BORDEN said, he saw by this proceedMiami-JOHN A. GRAHAM. ing that the Convention was likely to get into Monroe-WILLIAM C. FOSTER, Sr. a difficulty at once, and inasmuch as they had Montgomery-HENRY T. SNOOK, DAVID A. adopted no rules for their government, it occurSHANNON and HORACE E. CARTER. red to his mind that the only way by which the Morgan-JAMES CRAWFORD. body could come to an understanding and a deNoble-THOMAS P. BICKNELL. cision of the matter, would be to act directly Orange. —WILLIAM HOLLADAY. upon the question of the adoption of the origiOwen-GEORGE W. MOORE. nal resolution. Parke-WILLIAM R. NOFFSINGER and SAM- Mr. PETTIT said, he saw no difficulty In UEL DAVIS. the way. The Secretary of State was authorPerry-SAMUEL FRISBIE. ized by law to organize the Convention, and Pike-CHARLES ALEXANDER. the next step to be taken was the election of a Posey-ROBERT DALE OWEN. President. Putnam-ALEXANDER C. STEVENSON, ALEX- The question being upon the adoption of the ANDER S. FARROW and OLIVER P. BADGER. substituteRandolph-BEATTIE MCCLELLAND. Mr. KILGORE demanded the yeas and nays. Ripley-THOMAS SMITH and HENRY J. Bow- Mr. CHAPMAN suggested that there was ERS. no rule under which the yeas and nays could Rush-JESSE MORGAN, JEFFERSON HELM be taken. and WILLIAM A. BRACKEN. Mr. RARIDEN said, he did not wish to Scott-HEZEKIAH S. SMITH. precipitate business. He thought the original Shelby-THOMAS A. HENDRICKS and JAMES proposition offered by the gentleman from PoVANBENTHUSEN. sey, (Mr. Owen,) would meet the wishes of the Spencer-WILLIAM HUFF. whole Convention, unless, perhaps, some gen 5 tleman might object to the manner prescribed of the State was organized. He maintained for the election-by a viva voce vote. If gen- that the proposition of the gentleman from Potlemen were opposed to this manner of voting, sey (Mr. Owen) was a fair proposition; it was the words might be readily stricken out. common in the Legislature of the State and Mr. STEVENSON said, he had no objec- well understood by all. Whatever preference tion to Mr. CARRF going into the Chair of the for this office gentlemen might entertain, could Convention, but he would suggest that as the be as well expressed in this as in any other usual mode of electing the officers of delibera- way. tive bodies of this State was by ballot, it might Mr. STEELE said, if it was in order, he perhaps, be the better way for the gentleman would move to amend the substitute by strikto withdraw the proposition. ing out all after the word resolved, and insertMr. PETTIT said, he understood that his ing the proposition of the gentleman from Poamendment had been accepted. sey. The SECRETARY OF STATE observed, Mr. PETTIT said, that in order to give entire that the amendment was accepted by the gen- satisfaction to gentlemen on all sides, especialtlemanfrom Posey. ly to those gentlemen who were desirous of Mr. MORRISON, of Marion, said, he was recording their votes, he would withdraw his very sorry that any discussion should arise upon amendment. such a question. He was in favor of the prop- The amendment was withdrawn accordingly. osition as originally submitted,before the amend- Mr. KILGORE proposed to amend the resoment was accepted, and the reason why he lution by adding the words: "and thatall other was in favor of the original proposition was officers of this Convention be elected in the this: if the Convention should now go into a same manner." viva voce vote, it would require but little more Mr. PETTIT opposed the amendment. He time than for the Secretary to take the mere could not think that gentlemen were seripassive vote proposed in the amendment.- ously disposed to go into the election of all the Should the resolution of the gentleman from assistant Door-keepers, the fire makers, and Tippecanoe be adopted, Mr. CARR would be the laborers that were necessary about the House, President of the Convention-to all of which at this time. he was agreed; but if the original resolution The amendment of the gentleman from Delwas adopted each gentleman could vote for whom aware (Mr. Kilgore) was withdrawn, and the he pleased, and in this way gentlemen could question being taken, the resolution of the gengive either complimentary votes or elective tleman from Posey (Mr. Owen) was adopted. votes, as they should see proper. Mr. BORDEN said, that the Convention Mr. OWEN said, that to save time he would having decided to go now into the election withdraw the proposition as amended, and offer of a President, he would take the liberty of again the original resolution. proposing the nape of Hon. GEO. W. CARR, Mr. PETTIT also re-offered the substitute one of the delegates from the county of which he had before proposed. By the adop- Lawrence, for that station. In doing so, he tion of his proposition, he said, there would be desired to be allowed to say that the dignity but one vote and Mr. CARR would be President and impartiality with which that gentleman had of the Convention-which would be the result presided over the House of Representatives, of of any vote that might be taken; but if the orig- this State, for the last two sessions of that inal resolution was adopted, the names of all body, was a sufficient guarantee, that, by placthe members would have to be called over to ing him in the Chair, the Convention would ascertain the vote. secure the services of a presiding officer well Mr. KELSO said, he understood that the qualified for the station, and in every way worquestion was now upon the adoption of the thy of it. amendment. He did not agree with the gen- Then the roll being called by the Secretary tieman from Tippecanoe, (Mr. Pettit,) that it of State it was ascertained that the whole would be better that there should be but one number of members voting was 140-71 bevote for this officer. For himself, however, he ing necessary to constitute a majority. declared that he stood ready to, vote for GEO. The Secretary of State announced that Mr. W. CARR-he intended to vote for him, but he GEO. W. CARR had received 134 votes (scatterwas opposed to his appointment by resolution ing 6)-as follows: in this way. He was willing to vote for the AYES. Messrs. Allen, Anthony, Badger, Balfirst resolution, but if the amendment prevailed ingall, Barbour, Bascom, Beach, Beard, Beehe should vote against it. son, Berry, Bicknell, Biddle, Borden, Bourne, Mr. SPANN observed, that this was a mere Bowers, Bracken, Bright, Brookbank, Bryant, matter of form; but upon examination of the Butler, Carr of Jackson, Carter, Chandler, law, with reference to the organization of this Chapman, Chenowith, Clark of Tippecanoe, Convention, he found that it was expressly pro- Coats, Cookerly, Crawford, Davis of Madison, vided that the organization should be effected Davis of Parke, Davis of Vermillion, Dick, in the manner in which the General Assembly Dobson, Dunn of Jefferson, Dunn of Perry, 6 Duzan, Edmonston, Farrow, Fisher, Foley, Mr. PETTIT said, that in consequence of Foster, Frisbie, Garvin, Gibson, Gootee, Gor- the amount of business which it was desirable don, Graham of Miami, Graham of Warrick, should be done out of doors, he would move that Hall, Hadden, Holliday, Hamilton, Hardin, Hel- the Convention do now adjourn until to-morrow mer, Hendricks, Hiatt, Hogin, Holman, Huff, morning at 9 o'clock. Johnson, Kelso, Kent, Kendall of W., Ken- Mr. KILGORE desired to amend the motion dall of Warren, Kilgore Kindley, Lockhart, by striking out the words "to-morrow morning Logan, Maguire, March, Mather, Mathis, at 9 o'clock," and inserting the words "twoMay, McClelland, McFarland, McLean, Mil- o'clock this afternoon." He was proceeding ler of Clinton, Miller of Gibson, Miller of to offer a reason for this modification, when — Fulton, Milligan, Milroy, Mooney, Moore, Mor- The PRESIDENT interposed, and stated to gan, Morrison of Marion, Morrison of Wash- the gentleman from Delaware, that the propington, Mowrer, Murray, Nave, Newman, Niles, osition was not debatable. Nofsinger, Owen, Pepper of Ohio, Pepper of Mr. KILGORE contended that this motion Crawford, Pettit, Prather, Rariden, Read of to adjourn was debatable, because the ConClark, Read of Monroe, Ristine, Robinson, vention had not yet adopted rules-and being Schoonover, Sherrod, Shoup, Sims, Smiley, without any rules of government, anything Snook, Smith of Ripley, Smith of Scott, and everything was in order. Spann, Steele, Stevenson, Tague, Tannehill, Mr. BORDEN called the gentleman from. Terry, Thomas, Thornton, Trembly, Vanben- Delaware (Mr. Kilgore) to order. thusen, Wallace, Walpole, Watts, Wheeler, Mr. KILGORE having taken his seat, Wiley, Wolf, Work, Wunderlich, Yocum The PRESIDENT requested the gentleman and Zenor-134. from Allen (Mr. Borden) to reduce his point of The following gentlemen voted blanks, viz: order to writing. Messrs. Clark of Hamilton, Cole, Hawkins, Mr. BORDEN said, that a motion to adjourn Helm, Howe, and Todd-6. from day to day was not debatable. In reply Mr. GEO. WV. CARR, a delegate from the to the argument of the gentleman from Delacounty of Lawrence, was therefore declared ware, that the Convention had no rules to govto be duly elected to the office of President of ern their proceedings, he affirmed that the lex the Convention. Parliamentaria was in force, and was the rule On motion by Mr. BORDEN it was to govern the proceedings of every deliberative Ordered, That a committee of two be ap- body in the country until such body had adopted pointed to wait upon the President, and conduct rules for its own government; that the lex Parhim to the Chair. liamentaria was as much the law to govern the The SECRETARY of STATE, accordingly proceedings of any deliberative body, as the pnpointed Messrs. BORDEN of Allen, and SMITH common law was applicable to the government of Ripley, and this service being performed by of proceedings of the courts of law. It wa& them- true that when any legislative body had adoptThe PRESIDENT rose and said:- ed rules to govern its proceedings, those rulesGENTLEMEN: I rise to tender to you my sin- necessarily superseded the general parliamentcere and grateful acknowledgements for the ary rules in all cases wherein they conflicted. distinguished honor you have confered upon But this body, not having as yet adopted any me in electing me to preside over this Conven- rules for its government, was necessarily govtion. The memory of your partiality and this erned by usages applicable to all deliberative evidence of your confidence, will be carefully bodies. For these reasons, inasmuch as the cherished by me to the latest period of my life. motion was clearly not debatable, he called GENTLEMEN, you are assembled here for the the gentleman to order. discharge of high and important duties; and Mr. KILGORE said, he was aware that the the fact that you have been selected by the gentleman on his left (Mr. Borden) understood people for the performance of those duties, is parliamentary law very well. He doubted not a sufficient guarantee to me, that your inter- that that gentleman had been studying thiscourse with each other will be constantly branch of knowledge very diligently during the marked by that high-minded and liberal bear- whole of last summer. But the gentleman ingwhich everwhere distinguishes a free people. misunderstood his proposition. He had not ofIn entering upon the discharge of the duties fered a proposition for adjournment, but simply of this place, I cannot but distrust my %bility to to amend the proposition of the gentleman from meet your expectations; but I shall throw my- Tippecanoe. He now desired simply to say to self upon your indulgence, and shall rely much his experienced friend from Tippecanoe, that he upon the hope that I shall be constantly aided would like himself to know something about by your own wise counsel and experience. this informal business out of doors, to which the With these assurances I accept the office to gentleman alluded. He threw himself upon which you have called me, and promise, as far the kind indulgence of that gentleman, and inas my ability will permit, a faithful and fair sisted that he should permit those who were discharge of its duties. not so much experienced —the within-door 7 members-to have an opportunity afforded The PRESIDENT said, he was not aware them of knowing how the officers of the Con- of any rule of the House prescribing that all vention were to be elected. voting should be by ballot. The PRESIDENT remarked, that there Mr. PETTIT moved that the Convention adwere no special rules as yet, it was true, for the journ until 9 o'clock to-morrow morning. government of this body; but he understood it Mr. ROBINSON suggested whether it would to be an universal parliamentary rule, that all not be better for the gentleman to make his questions of adjournment should be decided motion to adjourn for a longer time-taking without debate. time enough for himself and his friends to reMr. FOSTER said, he was obliged to dis- tire and make a Constitution ready for submissent from the decision of the Chair, for the rea- sion to the Convention, so that the body would son that this body, being without rules, had as have nothing to do but to adopt it and go home. yet fixed no definite time to which the adjourn- Mr. PETTIT, (in his seat:) Oh yes, we ment should extend. He appealed from the will provide a Constitution in time. decision of the Chair. The yeas and nays vere demanded on the Mr. BORDEN suggested to the gentleman motion to adjourn, and being taken by the from Tippecanoe to modify his motion, so as to Secretary of State, were-yeas 37, nays 106; take a recess until 3 o'clock P. M. so the Convention refused to adjourn. Mr. PETTIT declined to modify his motion. Upon the suggestion of Mr. SPANN, the The question being taken on the appeal, the county of Vanderburgh was called, and Mr. decision of the Chair was sustained. JAS. E. BLYTHE, delegate for said county, And the question recurringupon the adoption came forward, took the constitutional oath, of the amendment proposed by Mr. Kilgore, it and the oath of office, the same being adminiswas agreed to. tered by Judge BLACKFORD, and took his The motion, as amended, being also agreed seat. to. Mr. PETTIT proposed to amend the resoThe Convention took a recess until 2 o'clock lution of Mr. KILGORE by inserting after the P. M. word "duties" the words "and Sergeant-atArms and Door-keeper." AFTERNROOR SESSION. Mr. KILGORE said, he would suggest to Mr. BORDEN offered the following resolu-his experienced friend from Tippecanoe the ton: propriety of keeping the election of these officers separate, for there were several candiResolved, That a committee be appointed by dates for each place. the Chair to prepare and report rules of order r. KELSO said, he preferred the old for the government of the proceedings of thisplan of electing one officer at a time. He Convention; and until said committee report, would prefer that they should first elect the and it be otherwise ordered, the rules of the Principal Secretary, a gentleman whom the House of Representatives of this State be adopt- Convention might look to as the head of that ed by this Convention, as regulations to govern department, and after the election of the prinits proceedings and deliberations, so far as the cipal officers in the three departments named, same are applicable. he would have them to employ as many assistThe resolution was adopted. ants as their business respectively might reThe following delegates appeared, produced quire. Nothing had ever yet gone wrong under their credentials, and, being dulylsworn by the this mode of proceeding. He objected to the Hon. HORACE P. BIDDLE, took their seats, resolution as entirely too broad, and the amendto-wit: ment, he said, would only make it worse. JAMES RITCHEY, of Johnson, The question being taken on the amendment, SCHUYLER COLFAX, of St. Joseph, and it was rejected. ALV N P. HovEY, of Posey. Mr. NAVE proposed to amend the resolution Mr. KILGORE offered the following resolu- by striking out the word "three," and inserting i. KLOEofrdtefloigon:. the word "two." [Several voices-"No, no."] Resolved, That we now proceed to elect, viva BORDEN demanded a division of the voce, three Secretaries for this body, and that question; bt subsequently withdrew the when elected, the President assign to each their demand. respective duties. Mr. SPANN said, a resolution had just been Mr. KELSO said, that to his mind this passed, providing that we should proceed under seemed to be a very strange mode of proceed- the rules of the House of Representatives, of ing —at one moment to adopt the rules of the the last General Assembly, and he recollected House of Representatives, which require that no precedent for bundling up two, three, four, all voting shall be by ballot, and in the next or five officers at a time in a single election.moment to adopt a resolution authorizing aviva He trusted that the Convention would not voce vote. agree to such a course now, but that they would 8 proceed to elect one officer at a time. He Mr. NAVE said, that in order to perfect the thought the rules ought to apply, with special original resolution more readily, he would withstrictness, to everything connected with the draw his amendment, so as to give place to the organization of the Convention. amendment of the gentleman from Floyd, (Mr, The PRESIDENT said, he knew of no rule Kent,) still expressing his preference, however. that would prohibit the election of more than for a viva voce vote. one officer at a time. Mr. FOSTER proposed to amend the amendMr. NAVE modified his amendment, propos- ment of the gentleman from Floyd, by adding ing to insert instead of the word "two," the the words "two Assistant Secretaries, one Doorword "one." keeper, and one Sergeant-at-Arms by a viva IMr. KILGORE suggested that such an voce vote, in the order in which they are named." amendment would be incongruous with the The amendment to the amendment was relatter part of the resolution. jected. Mr. READ, of Clark, moved that the Con- Mr KILGORE proposed to amend the vention adjourn., amendment by adding the words: "by a viva voce vote;" which was also rejected. Mr. KILGORE and Mr. KELSO demanded The uestion being taken on KENT the yeas and nays upon the motion to adjourn amendment, it was aeed to, and the resouamendment, it was agreed to, and the resoluMr. BORDEN desired to know to what hour tion, as amended, was adopted. the Convention would adjourn under this Mr. KILGORE moved the adoption of the motion. following: The PRESIDENT: The rules adopted by Resolved, That in the election of Secretary, the resolution of this afternoon, fix the hour at and other officers of the Convention, the vote 9 o'clock to-morrow morning. be taken viva voce. The yeas and nays were then taken by the r tke i. Secretary of State, who reported-yeas 37, nays i Mr. KELSO remarked that a proposition of 109; so the Convention again refused to adjournad een already voted don by t Convention. Mr. RITCHIE rose and, stated that he had, come up to the Convention to-day at a great Mr KILGORE said, he did not understand sacrifice of feeling, on account of the indispo- this to be exactly the same proposition. It sition of his son, and this would have to be his contemplated the manner of the election of apology for returning home to-morrow. He officers besdes the Secretar came up merely to assist in the organization; Mr. EDMONSTON moved to lay the resoand he wished to see the Convention organized lution and amendments upon the table; but, to-night if possible. He hoped they would before the motion was entertained by the proceed with the election of the officers of the ChairConvention, either by adopting the mode pro- Mr. PETTIT interposed another motion for posed by the gentleman from Hendricks, (Mr. adjournment; and the yeas and nays being deNave,) or by ballot. He rather thought, from manded upon this motion by Mr. KILGORE the votes of some gentlemen, that they desired and Mr. ROBINSON, they were taken by to adjourn in order that some action or some the Secretary of State, who reported —yeas understanding might be had upon this subject, 53, nays 91. out of the Hall. He was in the habit of sub- So the Convention again refused to adjourn. scribing to the doctrine of caucuses, and if Mr. READ, of Clark, enquired: Whether, urthe Democratic party thought proper to caucus, der the resolution just passed, the Convention he should be pleased to vote to adjourn for that was not compelled to go into the election of purpose; but if not, he should prefer to pro- Principal Secretary immediately, unless that ceed to the proper business of the Convention. order was arrested by an adjournment. He saw the names of a number of gentlemen The PR reied ir ie placed before the body as candidates for the The PRESIDENT replied affirm atively; bu different places to be filled, and he believed that he added That he understood that it was stil almost any one of the candidates for the Sec- competent for the body to prescribe the manner of voting, and, therefore, he had entertainretaryship, would make a good Secretary. He ner of voting and therefore he had entertainwas not acquainted with anythe mot of thentleman from Delashould neither regret or rejoice much at the ware. defeat or success of any. He believed that in Mr. KILGORE said, that in order to accomomost cases an election might be made on the date the views of gentlemen he would withfirst ballot. draw his proposition. Mr. KENT proposed to amend the original The Convention then proceeded to the elecresolution by striking out all after the word ition of a Principal Secretary; Mr. BIDDLE "resolved," and insertingthe following: "That and Mr. KENT acting as tellers. the Convention proceed now to the election of I The votes taken, the Secretary of State rea Principal Secretary." j ported the result of three ballotings as follows: 9 1st Ballot. 2d Ballot. 3d Ballot. \ the consideration of the subject and decide upWm. H. English, - 47 64 76 on it at the present time as well as at any othSolon Turman, - - 27 41 66 er. He did not think that two gentlemen could Geo. L. Sites, - - 20 15* perform all the labor which would be required Jas. S. Buckles, - -14 9* at the Secretary's desk. Supposing the ConFrancis King, - - 9 6 vention were to approve of the amendment And. J. Boone, - - 12 5* with an eye to economy, he apprehended it Benj. F. Myers, - - 4 would be that sort of economy which mightbe John W. Spencer, - 6 5 described as "penny wise and pound foolish." Scattering, - - 5 0 3 He admitted that it might be shown that but two Secretaries had been employed at the first, *The names of Jas. S. Buckles, And. J. Boone, in the service of some Conventions; but their and Geo. L. Sites, were severally withdrawn upon the numbers in most cases had subsequently been determination of the 2d balloting, increased to five or six by the appointment of The whole number of votes cast upon each assistants; and this larger number of Secre-,ballot was 145-73 ballots being necessary to taries had been found necessary in Conventions -constitute an election, and it appearing, upon composed of a much smaller number of Delethe determination of the third ballot that Wm. gates than was here assembled. Here were H. English, of the county of Scott, had receiv- 150 Delegates, and he submitted whether any ed a majority of all the votes cast, he was de- gentleman could seriously suppose that two or dared to be duly elected to the office of Prin- three men would be sufficient to perform all cipal Secretary of the Convention, to serve in the clerical service that would be required. If that capacity during the existence of the body. gentlemen would turn to the 14th section of And, therefore, Mr. English being called, the act under which the Convention was organcame forward and, being duly sworn by the ized they would find the following provision: Hon. ISAAC BLACKFORD, the Senior Judge "That the proceedings of said Convention shall.of the Supreme Court of Indiana, proceeded to be deposited by the President and Secretary the discharge of the duties of his office. thereof, in the office of the Secretary of State, Mr. KILGORE moved to refer the election who shall file the same." Here, it seemed to -of the residue of the officers of the Convention be contemplated that the proceedings of the to a select committee; pending which motion, Convention should be entered in a book, as a at 40 minutes past 4 o'clock, on motion of Mr. perpetual memorial of the action of the body. WOLF, the Convention adjourned. I He apprehended that it would be necessary to employ one clerk to make this permanent man-.....- ^^^^r i uscript record, and three others to discharge TUESDAYMORNIN Oct. 8th. 1850. the duties at the desk. The Ohio Convention required this to be done, and so did the ConvenMr. EDMUND D. TAYLOR, a delegate tion which formed the Constitution of the Unifrom the county of Laporte, appeared, produced ted States, over which George Washington his credentials and, being duly sworn by the presided. It might be that two persons could Hon. ISAAC BLACKFORD, took his seat. do all the clerical labor here, but he did not Mr. BORDEN introduced the following res- think it possible. He had before him the jourolution: nal of the Convention which formed the preResolved, That Robert M. Evans, Herman G. sent Constitution of Indiana; and he found Barkwell, and George L. Sites, be, and they there, that Wm. Hendricks was elected Secreare hereby appointed Assistant Secretaries to tary, and that on the next day the Convention this Convention. elected two Assistant Secretaries, Robert N. Mr. ROBINSON moved the following as a New, and Jas. A. Turnstall, and that after-:substitute: wards they elected three additional Assistants, Resolved, That in the opinion of this Con- making six Secretaries in all, to serve in a Convention one Principal and one Assistant Secre- vention composed of 42 members. In view of tary will be amply sufficient to discharge all this fact if gentlemen could be satisfied that the duties growing out of the action of the two Secretaries could do the business, let them Convention; and that the Convention now pro- vote for the amendment. ceed to the election of one Assistant Secretary, iMr. ROBINSON said, that he had offered his and no more, who, together with the Principal amendment because he believed it to be right Secretary elect, shall discharge the duties of and proper that such a provision should be Secretaries to this Convention. adopted. He thought himself sufficiently exThe question being upon the amendment of- perienced in legislation to be able to decide corfered by the gentleman from Decatur, (Mr. rectly in regard to this matter. He affirmed Robinson,) that there would not be one half the labor deMr. BORDEN remarked, that as another pro- volving upon the Secretaries of this body that position had been submitted upon this subject, was required to be performed by the clerks of the supposed the Convention could proceed to any legislative body sitting the same length of 10 time. He thought the experience of the Chair Haddon, Holliday, Hamilton, Harbolt, Hardin, would amply confirm and corroborate this as- Helmer, Hendricks, Holman, Hovey, Howe, sertion. Besides it was manifest that the duty Huff, Johnson, Kelso, Kent, Kendall of Warof the Assistant Secretaries was nearly all in- ren, Kindly, Lockhart, March, Mathers, May, eluded simply in copying the journal of the McClelland, McFarland McLean,Miller of ClinConvention. It might be that the journal of ton, Miller of Gibson, Miller of Fulton, Millithis body would be swelled to some considera- gan, Millroy, Mooney, Moore, Morrison of 3able extent; but the final result of the labors of rion, Mowrer, Murray, Nave, Newman, Niles, the Convention, when it should all come to be Nofsinger, Owen, Pepper of Ohio, Pettit, Raricondensed, arranged and printed, would hardly den, Read of Clark, Read of Monroe, Ristine, compose so large a volume of matter, as one of Schoonover, Shannon, Sherrod, Shoup, Sims, our ordinary corporation bills. The clerical Smiley, Snook, Smith of Ripley, Smith of Scott, labor of the Convention would consist chiefly Spann, Tague, Tannehill, Taylor, Trembly, in preparing and copying the journal, and in Vanbenthusen, Wallace, Wheeler, Wiley, reading; whilst every year, in the Legislature, Wolf, Work, Wunderlich, Yocum, Zenor, and there were prepared and carried through all the Mr. President-100. forms of reading, engrossment, and enrollment, NAYs-Allen, Badger, Ballingall, Barbour, some twenty-five or thirty of those large cor- Beard, Biddle, Blythe, Brookbank, Bryant, Butporation bills; and this was the reason why so ler, Clarke of Hamilton, Clark of Tippecanoe, many Assistants were required to be appointed. Coats, Cole, Colfax, Crawford, Davis of MadiHe considered this a correct view of the case, son, Dunn of Jefferson, Farrow, Fisher, Frisbie, for he spoke more from experience than any- Gregg, Hawkins, Helm, Hitt, Hogan, Logan, thing else. Every State in which a Conven- Maguire, Mather, Morgan, Morrison of Washtion had been held, save the State of New ington, Pepper of Crawford, Prather, RobinYork, had taken precisely this course. A ju- son, Steele, Stevenson, Terry, Thomas, Thorndicious economy could be practised here as well ton, Todd, Walpole, and Watts-42. as in any other place. So the amendments were laid upon the table. Mr. BORDEN observed that if in the State Mr. STEVENSON then moved to amend Conventions which had been held in other the resolution by substituting the following: States but two Secretaries had been elected, Resolved, That the Convention now proceed he would confess that he had been very much to elect two assistant Secretaries. misinformed. But he was inclined to think The original resolution, he said, contemplathat the gentleman from Decatur was mistak- ted a different mode from that practiced by deen. The New York Convention elected two liberative bodies generally in the appointment Secretaries and in a few days authorized the ap- of their officers. It contemplated the appointpointment of one more. The Ohio Convention ment of three at one time. If it proposed apelected Mr. GILL principal Secretary, and Mr. pointing only one individual, a proper selection CARROLTON his assistant; and, in one or two might probably be made, but when it proposed days afterwards, authorized the Principal,Sec- to appoint three at one time, it would be but retary to appoint another assistant, and then natural that men would be influenced in giving another.. their votes in favor of one or more of the parMr. STEELE moved to amend the amend- ties, by a desire to secure the election of their ment by adding the words "the additionl Sec- particular favorite and thus be lead to vote, perretaries if required." haps, for the others without regard to the qualiMr. MILLER, of Gibson, moved to lay both fication or fitness for office of such others. the amendments on the table. Thus it was that in legislative bodies someMr. PETTIT said, that he supposed if this times an obnoxious measure was attached to a motion prevailed, it would carry the original good one, in order to secure the passage of the resolution also to the table. former, which would not have passed if it had The PRESIDENT stated that such would been left to depend upon its own merits. The not be the case under the rules of the Indiana principle was decidedly wrong. It was altoLegislature. gether a new one, and one which, he considerThe yeas and nays were demanded upon this ed, it would be dangerous to adopt. question by Messrs. PRATHER and ROBIN- The business of the Convention differed maSON, and being taken, the Clerk reported- terially from that of a State Legislature; there yeas 100, nays 42, as follows: would be no memorials, petitions, or remonstranYEAs-Messrs. Alexander, Anthony, Bascom, ces, to be acted upon. They were called toBeach,Beeson, Berry, Bicknell,Borden,Bourne, gether for the purpose of forming a ConstituBowers, Bracken, Bright, Carr of Jackson, Car- tion, an instrument occupying some ten or fifter, Chandler, Chapman, Chenowith, Cookerly, teen pages of the Statute Book. There could Davis of Parke, Davis of Parke and Vermil- not then, he thought, be anything like the lion, Dick, Dobson, Dunn of Perry, &c., Duzan, same amount of business to be done by the SecEdmonston, Foley, Foster, Garvin, Gibson, Goo- retary of the Convention, as by the Clerk tee, Graham of Miami, Graham of Warrick, of the General Assembly. 11 One hundred and fifty members would per- no objection; but he thought the best way was form no more business than forty members would to make the appointments by resolution. perform. One resolution only could be acted Mr. NAVE was in favor of the Convention upon at a time, no matter what the number of electing at once a sufficient number of officers, members might be. In regard to the consider- without making it necessary, hereafter, for the ation of economy, he had only to say that he Secretaries themselves to appoint assistants;was not for going to extremes either way, ei- which was known to be the case in our State ther in extravagance or parsimoniousness. Legislature. He was of the opinion that two Secretaries Mr. CLARK of T. said he rose to apologize to were quite sufficient. He was not disposed to the gentleman from Allen, (Mr. Borden) for mainterfere, however, with any arrangement that king the motion to reduce the number of Secrehad been made out of doors; and he was inclined taries. He was willing to concur in the edict to go for democratic appointees. He was will- of those who had decided on three Secretaries ing that they should all be democrats; but he out of this body; but not having heard the arguwas opposed to adopting a new principle in refer- ments that had been advanced, he had to disence to their elections. He trusted that the charge a duty to his constituents by fixing on a mandment would be adopted. number he thought sufficient. He thought a Mr. DOBSON said, that in his opinion the vote should be taken here on the officers, alamendment did not go far enough. He moved though the final decision might have been made an amendment to the effect that these officers elsewhere. should be elected and not appointed. Mr. EDMONSTON favored the election of Mr. BASCOM moved to lay the amendment three Secretaries, as the number best calculaon the table. ted to advance the business of the Convention. Mr. KELSO hoped this matter might be com- Mr. MILLER of Gibson, moved the previous promised in such a way that the amendment by question; which was not sustained. the gentleman from Owen might be adopted.- The question was then taken on the motion He was willing to vote for that. He hoped his to fill the blank with three, and it was agreed friend would withdraw the motion to lay on the to. table. The question being on the adoption of the Mr. STEVENSON said, he would accept resolution. the amendment leaving the number blank. Mr. WATTS moved the following amendMr. BASCOM withdrew the motion to lay ment, "that Samuel J. Johnson of Dearborn on the table. County be declared Door-keeper of this ConMr. KELSO then moved to fill the blank with vention." "three." The question being taken the amendment Mr. CLARK of Tippecanoe, moved to fill the was not agreed to. blank with "two." Mr. COCKERLY moved to amend the resThe PRESIDENT. The question will be olution by inserting the words "by viva voce first on the largest number. vote." Mr. FOSTER said he would remark to his De- The amendment was adopted. mocratic friends that this would not be quite in The question was then taken on the amendaccordance with the pledges they had given to ment, as amended, and it was decided in the their constituents. A great many pledges of affirmative: economy had been given during the canvass.- The question on the original resolution was He thought they ought to manifest their faith then taken and decided in the affirmative. by their practice. He for one felt a disposition The resolution as amended was adopted;to manifest his faith by his works. But that whereupon was not all. He believed that two Secretaries The roll was called and the following genwere amply sufficient. He had had some expe- tlemen voted rience in matters of this kind, and he believed that the clerical duties of the Convention would FOR ROBERT M. EVANS: not be near as onerous as those of the Legisla- Messrs. Alexander, Allen, Anthony, Badger, ture. There was only the keeping of the jour- Ballingall, Barbour, Bascom, Beach, Beard, Beenal to be done; there was no enrolling of bills, son, Berry, Bicknell, Biddle, Blythe, Borden, and he would venture to say that if they per- Bourne, Bowers, Bracken, Bright, Brookbank, formed their work properly, the Constitution Bryant, Butler, Carr of Jackson, Carter, Chanwould not be equal in length to some of the dler, Chapman, Chenowith, Clark of Tippecaenrolled bills of the Legislature. He should noe, Coats, Cole, Colfax, Cookerly, Crawford, vote for the amendment. Davis of Madison, Davis of Parke, Davis of Mr. BORDEN opposed the amendment. He Parke and Vermillion, Dick, Dobson, Dunn of could see no necessity for going into the elec- of Perry, Dunn of Jefferson, Duzan, Edmontion by ballot unless the object was to defeat ston, Farrow, Fisher. Foley, Foster, Frisbie, those gentlemen who had been nominated. If Garvin. Gibson, Gootee, Graham of Miami, Grathe election were to be by a viva voce vote he had ham of'Warrick, Haddon, Holliday, Hamilton, 12 Harbolt, Hardin, Hawkins, Helm, Helmer, Hen- Thornton, Trembly, Vanbenthusen, Wallace, dricks, Hogin Holman, Hovey, Howe, Huff, Wheeler, Watts, Wiley, Wolfe, Work, WunJohnson, Kelso, Kent, Kendall of Miami, Ken- derlich, Yocum, Zenor, and Mr. President.dall of Warren &c., Kindley, Lockhart, Logan, (124.) Maguire, March, Mather, Mathis, May McClel- The following gentleman voted land, McFarland, McLean, Miller of Clinton, Fo MR. STALLARD. Miller of Gibson, Miller of Fulton, Milligan, o. TALL Milroy, Mooney, Moore, Morrison of Marion, Messrs. Balingall, Davis of Madison, Hogan, Morrison of Washington, Mowrer,'Murray, Morgan, Rariden, Robinson, Steel, Walpole. Nave, Newman, Niles, Nofsinger, Owen, Pep- -(8.) per of Ohio, Pepper of Crawford, Pettit, Pra- Mr. Crawford voted for Mr. Lafferty. ther, Rariden, Read of Clark, Read of Mon- The following gentlemen voted blank, toroe, Ristine, Schoonover, Shannon, Sherrod, wit:Shoup, Sims, Smiley, Snook, Smith of Scott, Messrs. Brookbank, Clark of Hamilton, ColSpann, Stevenson, Tague, Tannehill, Taylor, fax and Mather.-(4.) Terry, Thomas, Thornton, Trembly, Vanbenthu- HARMON G. BARKWELL, of the County sen, Wallace, Walpole, Watts, Wheeler, Wi- of Perry, having received a majority of the ley, Wolfe, Work, Wunderlich, Yocum, Zenor, whole number of votes given was declared duly and Mr. President.-(137.) elected one of the Assistent Secretaries of this Convention, and being sworn by the' Hon. The following gentlemen voted for ISAAC BLACKFORD, one of the Judges of the SuJAMES B. RAY: preme Court of Indiana, proceeded to the disMessrs. Hitt, Morgan, Robinson and Steel. charge of the duties of his office. essrs~(4.) H Moaonoad ee The roll being again called, the following Those gentlemen who voted blank were gentlemen voted Messrs. Clark, Gregg and Todd.-(3.) FOR GEORGE L. SITES: ROBERT M. EVANS, of the County of Messrs. Alexander, Allen, Anthony, Barbour, Fountain, having received a majority of the Bascom, Beach, Beeson, Berry, Bicknell, Bidwhole number of votes given, was declared duly dle, Blythe, Borden, Bourne, Bowers, Bracken, elected one of the Assistant Secretaries to this Bright, Brookbank, Bryant, Butler, Carr of JackConvention, and being duly sworn by the Hon. son, Carter, Chandler, Chapman, Chenowith, ISAAC BLACKFORD one of the Judges of the Su- Clark of Tippecanoe, Coats, Cole, Colfax, Cookpreme Court of Indiana, proceeded to the dis- erly, Davis of Parke, &c., Dick, Dobson, Dunn,charge of the duties of his office. of Perry, Duzan, Edmonston, Farrow, Fisher, The roll being again called the following Foley, Foster, Frisbie, Garvin, Gibson, Gootee, gentlemen voted for Graham of Miami, Graham of Warrick, Haddon, Holliday, Hamilton, Harbolt, Hardin, Hawkins, HARMON G. BARKWELL: Helm, Helmer, Hendricks, Hogin, Holman, Messrs. Alexander, Allen, Anthony, Badger, Hovey, Howe, Huff, Johnson, Kelso, Kent, KenBarbour, Bascom, Beach, Beard, Beeson, Berry, dall of Miami, Kendall of Warren, Kindly, Biddle, Borden, Bourne, Bowers, Bracken, Lockhart, March, Mather, Mathis, May, McCleBright, Bryant, Butler, Carr of Jackson, Carter, land, McFarland, McLean, Miller of Clinton, Chandler, Chapman, Chenowith, Clark of Tip- Miller of Gibson, Miller of Fulton, Milligan, pecanoe, Cole, Cookerly, Davis of Parke, Davis Milroy,Mooney, Morgan,Mowrer, Murray, Nave, of Parke and Vermillion, Dick, Dobson, Dunn Newman, Niles, Nofsinger, Owen, Pepper of of Perry, Spencer and Warrick, Duzan, Edmon- Crawford, Pettit, Prather, Read of Clark, Read ston, Farrow, Fisher, Foley, Foster, Frisbie, of Monroe, Ristine, Schoonover, Shannon, Garvin, Gibson, Gootee, Graham of Miami, Sherrod, Shoup, Sims, Smiley, Snook, Smith of Graham of Warrick, Haddon, Holliday, Hamil- Ripley, Spann, Steele, Tague, Tannehill, Tayton, Harbolt, Hardin, Hawkins, Helm, Helmer, lor, Terry, Thornton, Trembly, Vanbenthusen, Hendricks, Hitt, Holman, Hovey, Howe, Huff, Wallace, Walpole, Wheeler, Wiley, Wolfe, Johnson, Kelso, Kent, Kendall of Miami, Ken- Work, Wunderlich, Yocum, Zenor, and Mr. dall of Warren, Kindly, Lockhart, Maguire, President-120. March, Mathis, May, McCleland, McFarland, The following gentlemen voted'blank-toMcLean, Miller of Clinton, Miller of Gibson, wit:Miller of Fulton, Milligan, Milroy, Mooney, Messrs. Balingall, Beard, Clark of Hamilton, Moore, Morgan, Morrison of Marion, Morrison Crawford, Davis of Madison, Hitt, Logan, Steof Washington, Mowrer, Murray, Nave, New- venson, Thomas, Watts-10. man, Niles, Nofsinger, Owen, Pepper of Ohio, GEORGE L. SITES, of the County of AlPepper of Crawford, Pettit, Prather, Read of len, having received a majority of the whole Clark, Read of Monroe, Ristine, Schoonover, number of votes given, was declared duly elecShannon, Sherrod, Shoup, Sims, Smiley, Snook, ted one of the Assistant Secretaries to this Smith of Ripley, Smith of Scott, Spann, Ste- Convention, and being sworn by the Hon. phenson, Tague, Tannehill, Taylor, Terry, ISAAC BLACKFORD, one of the Judges of the 13 Supreme Court of Indiana, proceeded to the } "2. The apportionment, election, tenure of discharge of the duties of his office. office, and compensation, of the members of the Mr. READ, of Clark, offered the following General Assembly. resolution. j "3. The powers and duties of the General Resolved, That Samuel McKenzie be ap- Assembly, except as to the public debt and pointed Sergeant-at-arms to this Convention. matters otherwise referred. The resolution was adopted. "4. The election, tenure of office, compenMr. READ of Clark offeed te followig sation, powers, and duties, of the Governor and *~ ~ ~lresolution: fo Lieutenant Governor.: "5. The election and appointment of officers Resolved, That Samrurel J. Johnson be ap- of State other than Legislative or Judicial,their pointed Doorkeeper to this Convention, whlich p er duties an c powers, duties and compensation. was adopted. "6. The election and appointment of all. Mr. McKenzie and IMr. Johnson were sworn County officers, their tenure of office, powers, by the Hon. ISAAC BLACKFORD, and proceeded duties, and compensation. to the discharge of the duties of their respec- "7. The Judicial Department of Governtive offices. ment, the election of judicial officers, their tenMr. PETTIT submitted the following reso- ure of office and compensation. altion: "8. The power of impeachment, and remo — Resolved, That the Doorkeeper be directed val from office. to have placed in this Hall suitable desks for "9. The elective franchise, and the qualifithe use of the Stenographers at such place and cations to vote and hold office. of such form as they may direct. " 10. The militia and military officers. The resolution was adopted. ( 11. The future amendments and revision of the Constitution. Mr. READ of Clark submitted the following the ostt n resolution. 12. The State University, County SeminaResolved, That the Secretary confer wvith ries, Education, Common Schools, and their app.ropriate funds. the Clergy of this city, and request them to propaten make such arrangements among themselves, The tate Bank, Currency nd Banking. 1n " 13 14. On such parts of the Constitution as as that one of their number open the Conven-n such ofthe Constitution as are not otherwise referred. tion each day with prayer. tiohe resolut wtas adpted. "15. On corporations other than Banking. ~The resolution was adopted. "16. On canals and other improvements, Mr. PETTIT offered the following resolu-canals and other improvements T of d the folowng rol- public revenue and property, public debt and tion:l_,,~.,~ jthe powers and duties of the Legislature in Resolved, That three committees on the out- reference thereto; and the restrictions proper lines of the Constitution shall be appointed by to be imposed on the Legislature in making the President, to-wit: loans of money on the credit of the State. One on the Legislative Department of the " 17. On the organization of County Boards, Government, whose duty it shall be to consider the granting of powers of local legislation to all matters which may be referred to it, and them, and the adoption of a uniform mode of prepare and report provisions relative to that doing county and township business. Department. "18. On reducing to a CODE such parts of One on the Executive Department of the the laws of this State as may be found pracGovernment, whose duty it shall be to consider ticable and expedient; and also on reforming all matters which may be referred to it, and pre- the rules and practice of the Courts of this pare and report provisions relative to that De- State. partment. "19. On the Homestead Exemption, and on One on the Judicial Department of the Gov- the accumulation, creation, and division of esernment, whose duty it shall be to consider all tates in lands. matters which may be referred to' it, and pre- "Resolved, That each committee appointed pare and report provisions relative to that De- under the foregoing resolutions shall consist of partment. - members, except the committee on the juMr. BORDEN moved to strike out the reso- diciary, which shall consist of —." lution from the resolving clause, and insert the Mr. REED of Monroe offered the following following: as a substitute for both resolutions:"That a Standing Committee be appointed "That a committee of - be appointed to to consider and report on each of the following report a plan for the business of this Convenclasses of subjects; and that the several parts tion." of the existing Constitution, which relate to Mr. KELSO opposed all three of the propothose subjects respectively, be also referred to sitions for the present, although the last one said committee. seemed to suit his views much better than either " 1. The rights and priveleges of the citi- of the others. A committee had been appointzeus and inhabitants of this State. ed to draft rules for the government of this 14 body, and until that duty was performed, the mittees. A course similar to this was pursued resolutions now introduced would be premature. in the late Convention in Kentucky, held to reMr. REED of Monroe saw nothing in the vise and amend the Constitution of that State. appointment of the committee on the rules that A committee was raised who reported the rules would conflict with the proposition now before and regulations, and also the standing committhe Convention. tees. The language of the resolution introBefore the question was taken, duced by him and already adopted, was very Mr. COOKERLY moved that the Conven- similar to the resolution adopted there. He tion adjourn until 2 P. M. had the official report of the debates at hand, The motion was agreed to and the Conven- from which he could read, if required, to show Lion adjourned. that he was not mistaken. The committee there raised was composed of thirteen members. AFTERNOON SESSION. After they had reported, the Convention took Mr. BORDEN moved that the number of the up their report; some of the committees they committee on rules as proposed by him oil yes- proposed to raise being agreed to, and others terday, be fixed at thirteen-one from each ju- stricken out, and their duties devolved on others dicial circuit-to be appointed by the Chair. differently designated. The motion was agreed to. Now, the proposition which he had submitted, The Convention then resumed the considera- provided, as he had already intimated, for the tion of Mr. Pettit's resolutions and amendments formation of some committees which were perpending at the time of the adjournment. haps unnecessary. All they had to do, however, was to go into committee of the whole, and Mr. BORDEN moved to refer the resolutionshere to discuss this question. He had no pride and amendments to a committee of the whole of opinion in this matter; and if, on discussion, on the state of the Commonwealth. it was found that any of the committees proposMr. BORDEN remarked, that the gentle- ed would be of no practical utility, they could man from Tippecanoe had offered a resolution easily be omitted. And if it was thought dethat morning, providing for the appointment of sirable to create any new committees, who three committees, to whom should be referred should have charge of certain peculiar subjects the existing Constitution of the State, for the which he had overlooked, that object also could purposes of revision and amendment. He (Mr. be effected, by proposing resolutions to raise B.) had proposed as a substitute a projet, pro- committees on those subjects. viding for the appointment of nineteen standing The committee on rules had been ordered to committees, to whom should be referred the consist of thirteen members, one from each juseveral articles of the present Constitution, and dicial circuit; but, if it was thought proper, the also some other matters to which no allusion number might be increased to two from each was made in the Constitution. And he thought jndicial circuit, as the committee had not yet that he could satisfy the Convention, that, under been appointed. If the Convention had deterthe circumstances in which they were then mined to send the Constitution to a committee placed, the correct course would be to refer it of only a part of this body, for distribution, he to a committee of the whole Convention, as he could not but think that the proposition of the had had the honor to propose. On yesterday a gentleman from Monroe, (Mr. Read,) to take resolution had been passed raising a committee the subject and refer it to another committee, whose business it was to draw up rules and reg- would be, in effect, to revoke the order of yesulations for the government of this body. Now, terday, authorizing the Chair to appoint the first with great deference to the judgment of others, committee. it was his opinion that upon this committee But, in his opinion, the best course now to properly devolved the duty of organizing the harmonize the views of all parties, was to refer necessary standing committees, if it was the the subject to a committee of the whole, in the design of the Convention to entrust that busi- manner proposed by him. In submitting this ness to a committee of the Convention rather proposition, he had done it with great diffidence, than do it themselves. For instance, they had which arose as well from the distinguished taladopted the rules of the late House of Repre- ent by which he was surrounded, as from the sentatives of this State for their temporary gov- fact of his being deficient in legislative experiernment; and by referring to those rules, it ence, never before having been honored with a would be seen that among them there was one seat in a legislative assembly. providing for the appointment of seventeen This Convention had assembled for great and standing committees: a committee on educa- important purposes. Their action was not to tion, one on corporations, one on benevolent be of a temporary character, if the work of their institutions, &c., &c. Now, the resolution al- hands was finally approved by the people. The ready adopted included these committees, for it decisions they made to-day were not to be reprovided that the committee having charge of pealed to-morrow. On the contrary, their acthe subject of preparing rules and orders for tion would, in all human probability, affect for their government, should organize these com- good or evil, the interests of millions yet un 15 born, who were to come after them; and as he desired it,have an opportunity to bring forward hoped and trusted, would, for countless ages to a proposition to raise a committee to enquire come, occupy this noble State. He did not de- into and report on any subject he might deem sign to detain them from the great duties be- worthy the attention of his associates in this fore them, in commenting on the magnitude of body. But if this opportunity is not now affordthe trust reposed in them by their constituents. ed, they would have, probably, proposition after It was sufficient to say, that theirs was the task proposition, down to the close of the session of of laying the corner stone for the future politi- the Convention, to raise committees to investical security of the people of Indiana, and espe- gate some matter which would and could be atcially to remove from the Constitution those tended to now if a full and free opportunity were defects which thirty-four years of experience afforded for discussion. He thought it importhad made manifest to the people. It seemed ant, that before the Constitution was referred to him that this Convention stood, as it were, to a select committee for distribution, they upon the foundations of their political organiza- should have the views of the members as to the tion, charged with the high duty of reconstruct- proper distribution of the whole subject; and ing the political edifice under which they all if they thought proper, briefly their reasons for lived. And he thought it was not only proper, it. By adopting this course, they would unbut highly necessary, that even the initiatory doubtedly have a more satisfactory and proper steps which they might adopt at the commence- distribution than could be obtained in any other ment of the session, with the view of beginning way. the work before them, should be such as would j The principle never to entrust to another tend to harmony of purpose and unanimity of l that which they could do just as well themaction. He felt convinced, unless they all set selves, he thought, should influence the minds out, not only with a desire, but with a strong of members in deciding this question. If the determination to pursue a course of conciliation, Convention believed they could do the work as as he had already intimated, that the Conven- well themselves as if it were referred to a select tion would fail to realize to the fullest extent committee, he presumed they would prefer to that it could, if so disposed, the expectations of do it, as he thought it would be but a poor comthe people in convoking it. And for one, he pliment to this body to suppose that an equal, could aver that he was not wedded to any par- if not greater amount of intelligence and wisticular plan, and only desired to pursue that dom could not be found in the whole Convencourse having for its object the most effectual tion than in a fractional part of it, however able mode of carrying out this design. Neverthe- and intelligent the committee might be who less, he had, since his arrival here, taken some should be appointed under the resolution propains to examine the manner of proceeding posed by his friend from Monroe. adopted in the Conventions that had been held The committee of the whole was a mode of in the different States of the Union; and he legislative procedure with which they were fawas convinced that the mode he had indicated miliar, it being much used in the legislative aswould be attended with fewer difficulties, and semblies of our country, both in the National productive of better results, than any other and State legislatures; it being usual to refer course that had been suggested. bills of great importance to a committee of the He considered that the people had sent them whole, where they received their first considerathere to accomplish a very important business, tion and discussion. Could not the Convention and the question now to be decided was, in take up the Constitution of Indiana and refer it what manner they should approach the subject to a committee of the whole, and in that com-where they were to begin, and how they mittee act upon it, in the same manner that the should progress with the revision of the Con- House of Representatives of the Union acts stitution. Whether they referred the Consti- on the President's message, and as both branchtution to the consideration of a committee of es of our State legislature do on the Governor's the whole or to a select committee, as proposed message? The first article respecting the by the gentleman from Monroe, (Mr. Read,) rights and privileges of the citizens and inhabitwas, in his estimation, merely a question of ants of this State usually called the " Bill of convenience. The matter to be decided was Rights," could be read and then a resolution how they could best classify and arrange the offered that so much of the Constitution as redifferent subjects embraced in the Constitution, lated to that subject be referred to a committee. and others upon which they would probably be So with reference to the remaining articles and called to act, so that each particular subject subdivisions of the Constitution; and if any could be referred to its appropriate and peculiar gentleman was desirous of having any particu;committee. And he respectfully submitted, lar subject investigated, not in the present Conthat the reference of the Constitution to a corn- stitution, he had only to move the formation of mittee of the whole, would tend greatly to ex- a committee to have charge of that special subpedite the business before them. In this corn- ject. Thus the various topics embraced in the mittee, any gentleman upon the floor, however Constitution could be dissected, if he might be humble his pretensions might be, could, if he allowed the use of the expression, arranged in 16 proper order, and by the committee of the whole would be attached to these three committees. reported to the Convention, and when the Con- Now if this grand committee was to be appointvention had agreed to the report, it would then ed, he would ask, what was this Convention to refer the various subjects to appropriate cor- be engaged in while that committee was delibmittees. erating? Must they sit there with their arms It would be recollected by gentlemen con- folded, meeting only to adjourn until this comversant with the constitutional history of the mittee was ready to report. A sense of duty country from which they derived their language, to his constituents, constrained him to oppose and, to a great extent, their laws, institutions, both propositions, as he desired to begin to-day and modes of parliamentary procedure, that the the work they were sent to execute. great legislative contest fought there between There was another subject to which he would the friends of freedom and slavery, was in corn- allude before he took his seat, as it might save mittee of the whole, then termed the Grand him the trouble of rising again to speak on the Committee of Supplies. And he could not but matter, and that was in regard to the manner of consider such a mode of procedure as one or- constituting these committees to whom the thy of attention and respect, not only because Convention should order the several subjects to of its antiquity, but for the good it had accom- be referred. After the committee of the whole plished. For what purpose, he would enquire, had reported sundry resolutions to the Convenhad the people of Indiana, more than a year tions distributing the various parts of the Consince, by an overwhelming vote, called this stitution to different committees, and this body Convention. Was it to be supposed that they had agreed to the report, the question would had convoked this assembly merely for the pur- naturally arise how the committees should be pose of making one or two slight alterations in constituted. In the Convention that formed the organic law of the State?' Certainly not. the present State Constitution, there were, He believed that important reforms were need- twelve standing committees raised, but the State ed in that instrument, and as in a committee of had increased in all her great interests, to such the whole, there was more freedom of debate an extent, as in his opinion to render it necessaand action, and less restraint of parliamentary ry to raise some six or seven more committees forms and usages, he believed by letting it take than was then deemed necessary. He proposthat course every gentleman in the Convention ed to organize nineteen standing committees, would have an opportunity of showing to what and to add a sufficient number of members to extent, in the way of reform, his constituents each committee to embrace in their delibdesired him to go. erations every member of the Convention. Another advantage resulting from the projet His reasons for this was that he presumed he had suggested, was, that the several subjects there were some members of this body, who, before them would receive a two-fold considera- like himself, never having had the honor of a tion, being first considered in committee of the seat in a deliberative body, were conseqently, whole and then in the Convention. Proposi- young and unfledged in the business of legislations would not only be freely offered, but with tion. And even of those who might have heregreat freedom discussed; and they should ob- tofore served in our State Legislature, there tain what was much to be desired, an open and probably were some who, though men of clear free comparison of opinion. Thus, when they heads and sound principles, yet might not pos — returned into Convention to act on the matter, sess what was usually termed a talent for pubthey would understand each others'views much lie speaking, and, unless they were placed on better than in any other mode they could adopt. some of the committees, we shall loose the If there was any evil to be deplored, it was that benefit of their intelligence and counsel in framof hasty action, and this course would obviate ing the Constitution. This feature in the orit to some extent. ganization of the committees he regarded as of Let his suggestion be adopted, and they paramount importance. It was a position every could commence, at once, the work they were member was entitled to occupy, and the advansent there to perform. tage was thereby gained of the entire wisdom He had heard it intimated since he had been and prudence of the whole body being directed here, that there was a proposition to be submit- the consideration of the subject before them. He ted by a distinguished gentleman on this floor, apologized to the Convention for having so long to raise a select committee of this body, to con- and, perhaps, so unnecessarily, occupied their sist of some twenty-five or more members, to time, and observed he did not expect to occupy whom was to be entrusted the entire business much of their time in debate, and would trouble of framing a new Constitution, and reporting it them with as few propositions, as were conto this Convention; and the proposition now sistent with the interest of those he was sent to under consideration, and which he had moved to represent. amend, proposed to raise only three committees, Mr. T. SMITH observed that he did not one on each of the great departments of gov- profess to understand much about legislative ernment; and he presumed should it be adopt- proceedings, or the necessary rules for the goved, not more than one-third of the members ermnent of legislative bodies-never havHing 17 paid much attention to them-nevertheless, he Mr. KELSO said, that it seemed to be the considered the mode just suggested of referring desire of gentlemen to do up all the business of the Constitution of Indiana to the committee the Convention that afternoon; but for his of the whole, the most correct mode, and the part, he saw no necessity for being in such a one that should be adopted. The idea had been desperate hurry to get through with the busisuggested to his mind some time since, by a ness before them. His friend from Allen apgentleman residing in the northern part of the peared very desirous of getting into committee State, and he favored the plan because it af- of the whole. This might be desirable, but forded an opportunity for every member, at the as far as his experience went, he would say he outset, to present his views. It would lead to had seen more frolics and waste of time occur a more extended discussion, which was emi- during the sessions of such committees, than nently desirable. He was opposed to any un- at any other time. How, he would ask, could necessary consumptionof time, and he regarded a subject be committed, when there was no the formation of a number of large committees, committees existing to which it might be reas tending to that result. They could take up ferred. It was about as senseless a proceeding the Constitution, article by article, and it might as for a man to search for the hole made by be that they would agree upon those articl es thrusting his finger into water. (Laughter.) while in committee of the whole, thus making They had adopted the rules of the late House short work of the labor before them. It was a of Representatives, and by these rules they false idea that every resolution and subject that should be governed. He would have the Chair, had been discussed in the Convention of Ken- then, appoint the committee ordered to be raised tucky, and Ohio, and New York, had to be gone on yesterday, and that committee report to the over again in the Convention of Indiana. He Convention the necessary standing committees. was opposed to any such course of procedure. The Convention could then decide upon the The idea that a large book must be made of requisite committees, and then his friend from their proceedings was equally absurd; and he Allen might bring forward his proposition to go,could not but think that if those proceedings into committee of the whole for the purpose were to go entirely unreported, the term of of distributing the Constitution.;their session would soon be brought to a close. Mr. READ, of Monroe, said, he understood Mr. BORDEN renewed his motion to refer that on yesterday a committee had been apthe whole subject to the committee of the pointed to draft rules and regulations for the,whole. government of the Convention; this was all The PRESIDING OFFICER stated, that it the duty which that committee was required to was not in order to refer the Constitution of perform. It had no authority whatever vested Indiana to the committe of the whole - that in it to raise the standing committees. In the subject was not now before the Convention.- New York convention, a committee was first'The question pending was the resolution pro- organized who simply reported rules and reguviding for the appointment of the standing lations. So in the Ohio Convention. Then committees. some gentleman came forward and presented a Mr. BORDEN said, he would modify his plan of action to the consideration of the Conmotion, and move the reference of the resolu- vention, which plan of proceedings was adopted. tion to the committee of the whole. Now they had appointed a committee on rules The question being upon the motion of the and regulations, and thus completed the organgentleman from Allen, (Mr. Borden,) Mr. ED- ization of the Convention. The next thing MONSTON said, he was far from setting was to appoint a committee who should report himself up to be a judge of parliamentary law, a plan for the business of the Convention.but as he understood parliamentary usage, he The amendment he had already offered, was not certainly thought that upon the committee on worded in the manner he would prefer; he rules and regulations, appointed yesterday, would therefore withdraw that amendment, and devolved the duty of drafting committees, and offer the following as a substitute. "That a reporting their organization to the Convention. committee of - be appointed to report a It then remained for the Convention to decide plan for the business of this Convention, and which were necessary and which were not.- to designate the number and functions of the Their number could be either diminished or different committees." increased. This had been the practice in all Mr. BORDEN said, he would withdraw the Legislative bodies. When these committees amendment he had that morning offered, for a were appointed, then there existed something season, in the hope that some general amendtangible to which references could appropriately ment, effecting the purpose he wished to attain, be made.A He trusted that under the resolution would be adopted. He would merely remark of yesterday, the chair would proceed to ap- that the gentleman's attempt atridicule was one point a committee who should report rules and thing, and sound argument another. The motion regulations for their government, and that he he had made was precisely the same in effect as would also appoint the necessary standing one made in the Virginia Convention, by one committees. of its most eminent members. He did not 18 mean that the several resolutions were such as swallow up everything. This, at least, was the were brought up in that Convention, but that purport of the gentleman's statement. Now it the proposition to go into committee of the did appear to him, (Mr. P.) that for a gentlewhole, and then distributing the Constitution, man who had never been in any deliberative was of like character to one offered in that as- body before, to come there and ask to be made sembly. the head and front of a committee which was So the amendment was withdrawn. to have the distribution of the various subjects Mr. READ, of Monroe, moved to strike out embraced in this Constitution, was a tolerably all after the resolving clause of the resolution officious act, and one against which might justly offered by the gentleman from Tippecanoe, be raised the charge of absoiption. He had (Mr. Pettit,) and insert the amendment which had some experience in legislative bodies elsehe had just offered, as a substitute. where, and for one he felt bound to say that The question being upon the motion of the such a position as that taken by the gentleman gentleman from Monroe, from Allen, he was not desirous of occupying. Mr. PETTIT desired to say a few words be- As the practice of referring the message of fore the question was taken on the pending the President to the committee of the whole amendment. It appeared to him that the na- had been alluded to, he would state that such tural divisions of government here and else- a reference could be made with all propriety, where were three-legislative, executive, and but that when before that committee for conjudicial; and these divisions were recognized in sideration no reference of certain portions could a provision in the present Constitution. These be made directly to any other particular comdepartments embraced every subject requiring mittee. That committee simply resolved that their attention; for no gentleman had as yet at- having had under consideration so much of the tempted to bring forward a proposition provid- President's message, they recommended the reing for the addition of another division of the ference of this portion and the other to appropowers of government. Almost the first pro- priate committees. The reference was never vision of their present State Constitution, as made directly from the committee of the whole. also of the Constitution of the United States, They must in the first place adopt a resolution and of the several States of the Union, set forth appointing committees, and then the direct rethose three divisions of the powers of govern- ference could be made. ment. Similar divisions were to be found The resolution adopted on yesterday provided in the acknowledged provisions of the unwrit- for the formation of a committee which should ten Constitution of Great Britain. The ap- report rules and regulations for the government pointment of these three committees would not of the Convention-the Convention in the of course. debar any gentleman from moving meanwhile to be governed by the rules of the the formation of other committees, if such an House of Representatives. Now if the resoaddition should be thought necessary. He was lution of the gentleman absorbed the resoluprepared to vote in favor of such an addition if tion of yesterday, and embraced the power to gentlemen thought it absolutely requisite. raise the committees, they must, acting under With reference to the proposition of the gen- the rules of the House of Representatives, tleman from Allen, (Mr. Borden,) he must say adopt the same number of committees that exthat he considered it of but little practical utili- isted in that body. They must raise similar ty. It was true that if, as the gentleman pro- committees to those organized by the House.posed, nineteen committees were organized, a Were they then to have a committee on ennumber of gentlemen would be gratified in be- rolled bills? He took it for granted that such ing appointed Chairmen of those committees. a committee would not be raised because it For one he was willing to take the tail end of would not be applicable to the Convention; that any committee. however, would be the effect of the gentleman's (Cries of "consent," "consent.") proposition. On the contrary there was no Mr. PETTIT. Gentlemen say consent but necessity existing for any such committee, and it may be that a committee thus constituted the true course to be pursued was to elect only would be like a Kangaroo-strongest in the such committees as were necessary and approhind quarters. (Laughter.) The effect of hav- priate. If the proposition for organizing three ing so many different committees would be to great committees were adopted and carried inretard action and confuse business. Each con- to effect, how then would the business proceedS mittee would be encraoching upon the proper A friend at his left, for instance, might, desire duties of theother, for they could not fail, with- that some provision with reference to the juout mutual consultation, in reporting twenty diciary should be engrafted on the Constitution. different provisions of the Constitution, of offer- Then he would only have to move that the coming some particular article that would conflict mittee having charge of that subject be inwith another article. structed to inquire into the expediency of enFrom the statement of the gentleman from grafting said provision; and after the report of Allen, it was to be inferred that the proposition the committee had been presented a motion he had offered was the serpent that was to would have to be made that it be laid on the 19 table and printed, and afterwards referred to the Mr. BORDEN said, that he wished before committee of the whole on the state of the the vote was taken upon the question before Commonwealth. They would then come to the them, to allude briefly to the remarks made by most interesting period of the session-the pe- the gentleman from Tippecanoe,(Mr. Pettit.) He riod when the deliberations of the committee of admitted that much deference was due to the the whole commenced. At that time every more mature experience of Congressmen and member should be in his place, attentive to the Legislators; nevertheless, he thought that some duties of legislation. If the committee of the degree of learning and wisdom might be found whole should adopt the provision it would be elsewhere than among those gentlemen who reported back to the Convention and then the had served in Congress, and in State Legislaquestion come up as to whether the Conven- tures. The gentleman from Tippecanoe had ton would concur in the action of the commit- said that he (Mr. B.) had proposed a resolution tee of the whole. If it was concurred in, the -in character like the rod of Aaron's serpent provision would become a part of the proposed that swallowed up all others. He did not design Constitution. If any amendment was made it was arousing the ire of any gentleman in the Conthen to be re-referred to the appropriate com- vention,and therefore he would remind the House mittee in order that in a smaller body it might that in offering his resolution it was intended be carefully considered. to operate temporarily, until the House had He had heard it suggested that but one com- adopted their permanent rules. It was not mittee should be appointed to have under their his design to take anything out of the hands of jurisdiction all the topics embodied in the Con- the gentleman from Tippecanoe. He would stitution. He had heard several gentlemen bow in deference to his superior knowledge conversing about the propriety of such a plan, and experience, nevertheless the opinions which but as yet he had not obtained the approbation he entertained consientiously he should fearof his own mind, that such a course should be lessly express. It was argued that the distripursued. He did not think that with propriety bution of the subjects before them did not or justice all the subjects coming under the su- belong to the Committee on rules already pervision of the three different departments of ordered. He thought differently. It was said this government could be referred to one com- that we should not refer to the proceedings of mittee. It appeared to him that the persual of other Conventions; but he would ask, with great such a course would be drawing into a very respect to his friend from Ripley, (Mr. Smith,) small vortex the power of the Convention, and if it was wrong to refer to the proceedings of the also that the labors of these different commit- Convention which formed the instrument they tees could more harmoniously and beneficially were about revising. Upon the second day of effect the purpose designed in the calling of the the session of that Convention; Mr. Johnston Convention. To undertake to dovetail togeth- submitted a resolution for the appointment of er the action of nineteen different committees twelve different standing Committees-which Would be a more fatiguing task than to travel committees reported the twelve different artiover the most old fashioned railroad in Indiana. cles to that Convention that now comprise the As a matter of course the various courts of the existing Constitution of the State. Yet his State would be at variance in their decisions friend from Tippecanoe (Mr. Pettit) had said upon the true meaning of the different articles that such a course of procedure was incongruof the Constitution. They could not of ne- ous-thatit would inevitably produce confusion. cessity give them the proper construction. He Several of the leading members of the Contrusted that the resolution he had offered would vention to which he had referred, and who were be adopted. considered at that time very able men, among Mr. OWEN said, he had been from the first them Judges Park and Johnson, and Mr. Noble, in favor of passing the resolution of the gen- advocated the division of the Constitution into tleman from Monroe, and the remarks of the twelve different parts, and it was thus referred, gentleman who had just taken his seat, further each portion to an appropriate committee, confirmed him in the opinion that it ought to be and they only raised those committees that were adopted. So far as he had considered the mat- applicable to the business of the Convention. ter he thought that the number of standing For one, he would say that he represented the committees should be more than three and less opinions of a portion of the people of this State, than nineteen, and their organization could more and he cared not whether it pleased gentlemen speedily be reported to the Convention'through or not, he intended to perform the duty he was the medium of a select committee raised for commissioned to execute. He felt it to be his that purpose. duty, however, to bow to the will of the maMr. EDMONSTON, of Dubois, moved to jority. fill up the blank in the amendment offered by The gentleman from Tippecanoe (Mr. Pettit)% the gentleman from Monroe, with the words had said that every part of the Constitution was "one from each Congressional District." embraced under one of three heads; now he The question being upon the amendment of- would respectfully inquire of him, to which of fered by the gentleman from Dubois. these heads the bill of rights appertained. 20 Mr. PETTIT said, Ie thought he could of these committees, that action could easily be readily satisfy the gentleman on that point. revoked by the Convention; as the formation The rights set forth in the bill of rights were of those committees was merely a commission secured by the judiciary. The violation of of the House to expedite business and save any of them could easily be punished in any time. He did not think that the appointment judicial district. of these three committees-as the gentleman Mr. BORDEN said the gentleman from from Tippecanoe had stated-would interfere Tippecanoe, in the resolution submitted by him, with the subsequent appointment of any other proposed the appointment of only three com- committees that might be thought necessary. mittees. Now it was admitted by all that All that was contemplated in the formation there was a great probability that several other of these committees was that they should exercommittees would necessarily be created. cise the work of supervision. This fact was admitted by the gentleman from They were not to over-rule the action of the Tippecanoe himself Why then delay the for- Convention, but were to advise and point out mation of the necessary committees. why not those plans of action which they considered pass a resolution for their formation at once? most advantageous to the Commonwealth. The duty had to be performed and it would Mr. MORRISON of Marion said he had be better that it should be executed immediate- listened with great deference and pleasure to ly. He was satisfied that the proper plan was the speeches that had been delivered upon the to authorize the mode of distribution he had sug- subject before them; but he confessed they did gested. not come up to his ideas of the duty which they, Mr. BASCOM moved that the Convention as delegates of the people, had to perform. adjourn; which motion was disagreed to. The The idea of three great committees might question being upon the amendment offered by please some gentlemen, because of the vast inthe gentleman from Dubois, (Edmonston,) to fluence it would give those gentlemen in the fill up the blank in the amendment offered by Convention-if elected Chairman of those comthe gentleman from Monroe, mittees. He attributed no such motive to genMr. RARIDEN remarked, that he was of tlemen; although such a construction might be opinion that the object set forth in the propo- placed upon their action. Suppose, said Mr. sition offered by the gentleman from Tippeca- Morrison, that these committees be appointed noe had been misapprehended by gentlemen and that they consist of fifty members each; I who had been engaged in discussing the sub- would enquire of any man who has ever done ject. He did not understand that it would business in a committee, how so large a cominterfere with the rights of any member of the mittee could speedily and impartially execute Convention. The three several committees the business entrusted to them? If this plan were to act as presiding spirits over the execu- were to be adopted, he said it was just as easy tive, the legislative, and thejudicial departments to organize one great conventional committee, of the government. Itwasa speciesofmachinery to whom should be entrusted all the business for the purpose of bringing together in one arising before the Convention. There would be harmonious whole, the discordant elements but little difference between the action of fifty that prevailed in the Convention-for it was and the action of a hundred and fifty men when clearly evident that many of the members they came to close work and scrupulous detail. composing the Convention, would not be satis- He would have the members look for instance fled without making numerous amendments to at the subject of banking or finance. Such a the Constitution they were called upon to re- subject would give ample scope to the most envise. There was an apparent necessity existing larged efforts of the ablest intellects in that for the formation of a committee on elections, in body. There were fifty other subjects, perhaps addition to the three proposed, whose duty should not as important, but still demanding assidious be the examination of the credentials of the attention, which would require the investigation members; but if any other committee was and attention of these committees. How could desired, for instance a committee on banking, they all be deliberated upon, and reported to the there was a manifest propriety in delaying its Convention withoutjarring or confusion1 There formation, until the time for action upon that were subjects that would come up for considersubject arrived. When those gentlemen of ation, that were not embraced in the Constituthe Convention,who were thoroughly acquaint- tion; then why not at once organize the necesed with the various and important subjects sary committees of reference instead of waitcoming under the consideration of the Conven- ing until the very moment for action had arrivtion, had become known to the President of edg Suppose, (continued Mr. M,.) that the comthe Convention, then would be the proper mittees were increased to twelve or fifteen, and time for the appointment of other committees that each committee was composed of some nine to consider such particular subjects as might or ten members, could not those committees act be deemed worthy of consideration. It would with more expedition upon the subjects referred be apparent to the mind of every member, that to them, than if their number were diminished! if there was anything wrong in the action of any They could report back to the Convention the 21 result of their deliberations, and after those re- l shall be accepted. An early answer is desirports were received they could be referred to ed. Respectfully, &c., and acted upon, in the committee of the whole, [Signed] J. A. WRIGHT, Governor and there they could easily be made to harmon- J. P. DRAKE, Treasurer of State. ize. For one he desired to have more discus- E. W. H. ELLIS, Auditor of State sion upon the subject, so that each member - might understand clearly the position he occu- INDIANAPOLIS, May 9, 1850. pied in the Convention. He wished that the M3essrs. ELLIS, DRAKE, and WRIGHT: members of all parties should be heard in the Gentlmen: discussion of the body, as he wanted to make Your note of the instant, in relation to the Convention as democratic as possible-he wanted to make it a democratic republican the use of the large room in the Masonic Hall, wanted to make it a democratic republican whig Convention. for the sitting of the Convention, has just been r. PETTIT said, that he did not desire to received. I cannot, in justice to the stockMr. PETTIT said, that he did not desire to debate the question any further at this time, holders for whom I act, conract for the occupancy of the room at the rate you propose, viz' believing that it would be better for members of theroom at the rae youpropo, viz to commune among themselves in regard to it. one hundred dollars per month; but I will agree He would therefore move that the Convention to prepare the room as stated in a former letter, adjourn. keep it in order during the session of the ConThe question being put on the motion to ad- vention, for $20 a day, or I will prepare the jolurn; it was not agreed to. $ room for the use of the Convention, leaving the On motion, snthe resolut andtpendinogampensation to be fixed by the Convention On motion, the resolution and pending amend- com ments were laid on the table. ise Mr. RARIDEN moved, that the Secretary of Respectflly your obt evnt, the Convention be instructed to ascertain, anti Signed] WM. SHEETS, Com'r. report, whether a more convenient hall could M r. PETTIT moved to lay the communinot be procured, for the deliberations of the cations just read on the table. Convention, and upon what terms. The motion was agreed to. The PRESIDENT stated, that in connection The question then recurring upon the mowith the subject just mentioned he would lay be- tion offered by the gentleman from Wayne, fore the Convention, the correspondence that (Mr. Rariden.) had taken place between the Governor and pro- Mr. KELSO moved to strike out the word prietors of the Masonic Hall, respecting the "Secretary," and insert the words "a commithiring of said Hall, for the use of the Conven- tee of three." tion. The amendment was agreed to, and the resThe correspondence was read by the Secre- olution as amended was adopted. tary, as follows: Mr. MILROY offered the following resolution: EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT, Oct. 7, 1850. Resolved, That there be a committee of seven HoN. G. W. CARR, appointed, whose duty it shall be to enquire into President of the Convention: and report to this Convention upon the legaliPlease lay before the body over which you ty of the claim of the present State Printer to have the honor to preside, the accompanying d t T..19.in the meantime the Secretary of the Convencorrespondence. Having failed in procuring in the meantorize the nece ssary of print - the Masonic Hall for the use of the Convention on be authorze to cause the necessary print ing to be done at the prices usually paid for under the restriction of the Legislature, we have simir wo done at the pces al Assembly. prepared the Hall of the House for their recep- l ar work doe for he General Asembly. tion, leaving it to the Convention to take such practil prier tt he printing the by a action in the premises as may be deemed proper. that the printing for the ConWaction inhave the honorpremises as mayto be deemed proper. vention could be done at least twenty per cent JOSEPH A. WRIGHT, Governor, cheaper than the public printing had heretofore JAMES P. DRAKE, Treas. of State. been done for the State. Whenever the matE. W. H. ELLIS, Auditor of State. ter should come to be decided upon he was for giving it to the lowest bidder, compelling him to give good security for the performance of the INDIANAPOLIS, EMay 6, 1850. contract. W;M. SHEETS, ESQ.: j Mr. BASCOM desired to say, that he was Dear Sir:-Under an act of the last Legisla- entirely opposed to letting out the printing by ture the undersigned are authorized to contract contract. The public printing as it was now exwith you for the Masonic Hall for the use of ecuted was done for as reasonable a price as it the State Convention to revise the Constitu- could be with justice to the printer. The men tion, at a rate not exceeding one hundred dol- who offered to do it at twenty per cent below lars per month. We are authorized to close the present prices would have to employ "rats," such a contract immediately if our propositioni as they were technically denominated. He 22 would say for one that he was not there to act The Chair submitted to the Convention, the a parsimonious part towards any of his fellow following communication from CHARLES H. working men. He had no intention of grind- TEST, Secretary of State, to-wit: ing the printers down to the lowest cent. He SECRETAR OF STATE desired that some good Democrat should haveIndianapolis, O ct. 8, 1850.S the printing at fair prices; and as the Demo- Indianapolis, ct. 8, 1850. crats had the majority in the Convention, the Hon. GEO. W. CARR question of printing could easily be decided. President of the ConventionHe was ready to take the responsibility of Herewith is transmitted, unopened, the proelecting printers at the usual rates of remuner- ceedings and depositions of the contested elecation for printing. They might just as well let tion for Delegate to the Convention from the out the officesof Secretary and Doorkeeper to County of Union, wherein James Osborn the lowest bidder, as to let out the printing. He contests the right of Benjamin F. Brookbank thought that the Convention had a right to to a seat in said Convention. choose their own Printer; and that they should Respectfully give him fair and reasonable wages for his ser- CHARLES H TEST vices. He would move the following amend- Secretary of State. ment to the resolution offered by the gentle- Secrey of man from Carroll, viz: "That the Convention to- Wich leter and the proceedings and depomorrow at 10 A. M. proceed to the election of a sitions therein referred to, were, upon the moPrinter. The President ruled the motion out oftion of Mr.Edmonston, laid on table. order,andt w T PRESIDENT announced it asithdran. he nnoune unfinMr. FOSTER moved, to amend by striking ished business to be the resolution offered by out all after the resolving clause, and insertin the gentleman from Carroll, on the subject of " that a committee be raised to inquire on what printing. terms the printing can be done, and that until Mr. KELSO desired to enquire if a claim that be done the Secretary shall get the print- had been put in by any one as being entitled ing done at the prices now paid the State Printer. to do the printing for the Convention. If there The amendment was decided to be out of or- had been no such claim advanced of which cogder. nizance could be taken by the Convention, he Pending the question, on motion, the Conven- was for having an investigation made by a comtion adjourned. mittee. Perhaps some of the delegates of this Convention, he said, could inform the Convention in regard to this matter. Mr. CHAPMAN said, he supposed it was known to the members of the Convention genWEDNESDAY MORNING, Oct. 9th, 1850. erally, that he was the State Printer. And beThe Convention met pursuant to adjourn- ing under contract as State Printer he of course ment. The Chair announced the following as considered himself bound to be prepared to do the committee on Rules, provided for in the the printing for the Convention, and if he were resolution of Mr. Borden, adopted on Monday not prepared to do it he had no doubt he would the 7th, viz: be liable to the penalty which the law imposed From the 12th Judicial Circuit-Mr. BOPRDEN.D for the non-fullfilment of his contract. He could From the 1st Judicial Circuit-Mr. PETTIT. make no discrimination between printing orderFrom the 2d Judicial Circuit-Mr. READ of C. ed by the Convention, and that ordered by the From the 3d Judicial Circuit-Mr. DuNE of J. From the 3d Judicial Circuit-Mr. DUNN of J. Legislature, or by any State officer under the From the 4th Judicial Circuit-Mr. HALL. law. He held himself, therefore, in readiness to From the 5th Judicial Circuit-Mr. VALLACE. dothe printing of the Convention as well as From the 6th Judicial Circuit-Mr. SMILEY. any other printing which migh be necessary to From the 7th Judicial Circuit-Mr. STEvENSOhN. be done on behalf of the State. He desired to From the 8th Judicial Circuit-Mr. BIDDLE. know whether he was in error in supposing that From the 9th Judicial Circuit-Mr. WHEELER. the public printer had rights and privileges unFrom the 10th Judicial Circuit-Mr. DsOBSON. der his contract while under an obligation on From the 11th Judicial Circuit-Mr. March. his part to perform all the duty incumbent upFrom the 13th Judicial Circuit-Mr. Smith of R. on a public printer. That was tne question.He wished to know whether an officer of the And the Chair also announced the committee State, commissioned by the Governor, could be of three provided for on the resolution of Mr. turned out of office by this Convention, or be Rariden, on the subject of procuring a more deprived of any of the privileges appurtenant suitable room for the sittings of this Conven- to his office. It appeared to him that they tion, to consist of the following gentlemen, might as well undertake to turn him out of the to-wit:- seat which he held there as a member of the Messrs. RARIDEN, KELSO, and MORRIsoN of Convention, though in this he might be mistaMarion. ken. 23 Having made this explanation, he desired al- tract with some other printer they had, of course, so to ask the favor of the Convention, to be ex- no means of knowing upon what terms such cused from voting upon any question relating contract could be made. He would, therefore, to this matter. He did not want to give a vote move to amend the amendment according to the upon any question in which he might be sup- suggestion he had made, that the work be posed to have any personal interest. If he done at the office of the State Printer. were to vote he should of course give his vote The PRESIDENT. The Chair would rewith the same degree of conscientiousness as mark that the resolution provides that the work if he were voting upon any other question. shall be done at the rate of charge fixed by He had thought it right to say this much, in re- law. gard to the proposition now before them, and he Mr. KILGORE. Well, sir, let it done nevwould not detain the Convention further than ertheless at the office of the State Printer. to repeat his desire to be excused from voting. r. CLARKE, of Tippecanoe, said he had Mr. KELSO said, he was satisfied that this Mr. CLARKE, of Tippecanoe, said he had resolution oulght to pass, and an investigation very little objection to the resolution as it stood, be made. It was due to those who claim the buthe thought wouldbe properthatthe Conright to perform this duty, that the investigation ention should relieve the Secretary from reshould be made. There would be, of course, sponsibility, in regard to this matter. If those a difference of opinion about that right, and gentlemen who were appointed State Printers were entitled to do this work, the Convention the opinion he held in regard to it, might be were entited to do this work the Convention erroneous, and it was the more necessary there- hadh o dcid, ho take lt from them He dd ent fore, that an investigation should be made. He wlsh to i; b he w w o oe that they hoped the resolution would be adopted. tled to it; but he was willing to vote that they Mr. BORDEN said. hle had no objection to should do this printing in order to relieve the the first part of the resolution, that a Commit- Secretary from that which he would find to be a somewhat delicate task. Besides if those tee be appointed to enquire into the matter.- Ga smewha t d elicate to do the work thse But the second part of the resolution, which Gentlemen were entitled to do the work they But the second part of the resolution, which would directed the Secretary to employ a printer ad l have a legal claim to compensation for interim, appeared to him to be of more doubt- He wa to dsturb sted ful propriety under the circumstances. If they rilht. were to direct the Secretary to employ a print- The question was then taken on the amendment of the gentleman from Delaware-and er, and, as had been assumed, there was already i ment waof the gentleman from Delaware-and it was not agreed to. a printer legally authorized to do the work, by The ueson recurred o n the adoption of t official appointment, then the employment of official appointment, then the employment of, The question recurred on the adoption of the another printer by the Secretary, would be in resolution effect a violation of the contract with the per- Mr. KILGORE proposed to amend the resoson appointed as State printer. It appeared to lution so as to authorize the Secretary to get him, therefore, that it would be better to strike the Printing done where it could be done the out the latter part of the resolution. cheapest and the most expeditiously. Mr. DOBSON said, he did not see the neces- Mr. MORRISON said, that being a regu-.sity of delegating the power to the Secretary lar bred printer, and knowing that this matter of the Convention, to employ a printer. They had to go among his immediate constituents, he had made no order for the printing of anything, desired to say a few words in relation to it. as yet. He was opposed to beginning a system of He hoped that so much of the resolution as economy by reducing the wages of the mechanauthorized him to employ a printer, would be ic who had to perform this labor, in order that stricken out. they might show themselves the peculiar guarMr. KELSO said, he was of the opinion that dians of the Treasury of the people. He inthat part of the resolution ought to remain. It tended no demagogueism in relation to this might be that the Secretary would not be re- matter, but he thought the laborer worthy of quired to perform the duty of employing a print- his hire, and he believed that no man who was er, but at the same time it was known to every at all conversant with the business of printing member that there was work required to be would say that the prices paid to the State Printdone at this very moment. Printed lists of the er were too high; and he trusted that the Connames of members for taking the yeas and vention would not condescend to so small a nays were required. i business as to undertake to make a profit out of a The PRESIDENT remarked, that he was few day's printing. Indeed, he thought it probainformed by the Secretary that he was in want ble that tjere would be little or no printing done of such lists now. i until the committee had time to report. He would Mr. KILGORE suggested, that the resolu- not undertake to determine whether this Contion should be modified so as to direct this work vention had the inherent right to elect its own to be done at the office of the State Printer. printer, or whether the law creating a State His charges were regulated by law, whereas Printer was obligatory uponthe Convention. if the Secretary were directed to make a con- Under this view of the question he should most 24 decidedly vote against striking out any part of ferently situated from almost every other memthe resolution, ber of the Convention: he had come here for Mr. KELSO said, that, according to his un- the sole purpose of serving the country, and derstanding, when a man made a bargain with had no predilection for any particular interest; his eyes open, his labor was worth just exactly he had no particular plan or scheme to advance. what he undertook to do the work for, and he That being the position he occupied, he would understood further that a printer was no better go with his friend from Delaware, in the propothan any other mechanic, and that mechanics sition he had made to give the printing of the were no better than other people, except when Convention to the printer who would perform they behave themselves better. It was proba- the work in the best manner and upon the most ble that there would not be occasion for $10 favorable terms. It was true that the honoraworth of printing previous to the report of the ble gentleman on his left (Mr. Chapman) had committee being made, and he thought it would been appointed by the Legislature to do the be quite as well to let the Secretary make his State Printing; but he did not conceive that the own bargain, and get the work done where he Legislature in electing him to that office could could get it done the soonest. He was for pay- have contemplated the performance of the work ing a fair price, and whoever was acquainted of the Convention, because in the act authorizwith his course ever since he had had the honor ing the call of the Convention, it was provided of occupying a seat in the Legislature of the that the Convention should be entitled to elect State, in this end of the Capitol and in the oth- their own officers. This was a Convention of the er, knew that he would be the last man to un- people, and it was their duty to act with a view dertake to undervalue the services of any man, to economy. He hoped the amendment would or to reduce his pay below what those services be adopted. were worth. He was, however, for admitting a Mr. BASCOM said, he rose not to discuss fair competition, and for allowing printers to the legality of the claim of the State Printer make their propositions, and for permitting the to do the printing of the Convention, but to Secretary to get the work done on fair terms. combat in the outset, as he should do at all Mir. NAVE said, there were several points' times, the system of letting out the public printthat ought to be understood before voting upon ing by contract. Gentlemen who had so great the proposition. They ought to be informed a regard for economy, were, in such a case as as to the legal rights of the present contractors this, embarrassing themselves unnecessarily. for the public printing. It was important, be- He was in favor of economy, but not at the fore taking any step towards the employment expense of the laboring community. In giving of a printer, to ascertain whether the existing the work to the lowest bidder, they were but contract for the public printing was binding puttingmoney into the hands of the contractors, upon the Convention. If it was binding upon at the expense of those who performed the lathe Convention, the Public Printer would be bor. If gentlemen would turn to the House entitled to be paid for the work, and if this was Journals they would find letters from practical the case he took the ground that the Conven- printers of this State-and among others from tion had no right to employ any other person Mr. Defrees-who appeared to be anxious to for a single hour than the State Printer. Until get a nibble at this printing, in relation to this this question was settled therefore, in reference subject. [Mr. Bascom read a brief abstract to whether the contract was binding upon the from one of the letters referred to.] Convention, it appeared to him that no other n When they undertook to cut down the prices printer ought to be employed, because if they the pr to t and to throw the printing into the market to be proceeded to appoint an individual to do the a d ot to the lowest bidder printing of the Convention before that question we at n de the was settled, it might prove to be a violation of ere re cntann of t the contract made by the State with the State terestof the labo and depriving him of a reasonable remuneration for his labor. Printer, and he would have a right to institute easonable remuneration for his labor. a suit at law for the purpose of maintaining his If the interests of any portion of the cornlegal rights, and thus the State would be in- munity are to be preferred to those of anvolved unnecessarily in litigation. He was not other, the interest of the laborer should be prefor interfering with the rights of individuals, ferred. Wherever the contract system had either those now employed by the State or any been tried it had been found to be prejudicial others, and it was perfectly immaterial to him to the laborer as well as to the Government, who were the persons who had been elected and the work had invariably been done in a State Printers. This was a question which re- very inferior manner-the material was necesquired investigation, and no man ought to be sarilyinferior, and the work inferior. There employed to print for the Convention until the was no man who understood anything about question was settled., printing who would rise and say that too high Mr. STEELE said, he should vote for the a price was paid for the printing for the State. motion to strike out, and he desired to assign It appeared to him that it was not the proper the reason for that vote. He was perhaps dif- policy to undertake to get the work done more 25 cheaply than the Public Printer would do it. at the expense of the State, and to this end we He was entirely opposed to the proposition. respectfully decline the services of a StenograMr. KILGORE withdrew his amendment. pher tendered us by the Legislature. Mr. STEELE enquired if the resolution was Mr. OWEN offered the following as a substill open to amendment. stitute for the resolution of the gentleman from The PRESIDENT replied that it was open Jefferson: to amendment. Resolved, That in compliance with the proMr. STEELE said, he would renew the visions of the act, providing for a call of the amendment of the gentleman from Delaware. Convention of the people of the State of InHe desired that the work should be done where diana, to revise, amend, and alter the Constituit could be done the cheapest and most expedi- tion of said State, which directs the appointtiously. His understanding of the act author- ment of a competent Stenographer by the izing the call of a Convention, was that it gave Governor of the State, to report their debates, them power to elect all their officers. That the appointment made by the Governor, of being the case he was inclined to act directly Harvey Fowler, of Washington City, for that in accordance with it. purpose,be, and the same is hereby, recognized Mr. MAGUIRE said, he hoped the gentle- and approved. man would withdraw the amendment for the Resolved, That the certificate of the Presipresent. He could renew his proposition if he dent of the Convention, as provided in said act, thought proper after the report of the commit- be from time to time issued to the said Harvey tee was made. Fowler for his remuneration, which shall be Mr. STEELE said, he had no objection to at the usual rate of compensation for reporting withdraw the amendment. the debates in the Congress of the United The amendment was accordingly withdrawn. States. Mr. FOSTER said, he was sorry that the The PRESIDENT remarked, that under the amendment was withdrawn. He had himself 32d rule of the House the proposition of the proposed a Buncombe resolution yesterday and gentleman from Posey could not be moved as unfortunately the chair had decided that it was a substitute for the resolution of the gentleout of order for irrevalency or incongruity, and man from Jefferson. consequently his resolution did not appear in Mr. OWEN said he would withdraw the print. He rose now merely to express his sor- substitute, then, for the present, until the resorow that it was not published, so that it might lution of the gentleman was disposed of, and go to his constituents. he thought there would be but little difficulty The question being taken on the resolution or hesitation about disposing of it by voting it of the gentleman from Carroll, it was adopted. down. tion the following communication from His lution, he begged leave to assure thle UonvenExcellency, GovERNOR WRIGHT: tion it was not intended for Buncombe, but was EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT, ) the result of a sincere and thorough convicOctober 9, 1850.C tion of duty. He believed that its adoption HoN. GEo. W. CARR- would tend greatly to facilitate our public labors here, while it would be the means of a President of the Convention: resint of he Conentin: very considerable saving of expense, and withIn pursuance of the act of the General As- out working any, the least detriment to the sernbly, approved January 18, 1850, providing public interest, or discredit to this body, either for the call of a Convention, I have appointed individually or collectively.. and commissioned HARVEY FOWLER, Stenog- In the organization of this Convention, we, rapher, to report the debates of said Conven- have elected certain officers, whose duty it will tion.'be to keep a regular journal of all our proceedI have the honor to be, ings from day to day; and this journal, togethYours, most respectfully, er with that organic law which may result from JOSEPH A. WRIGHT. our deliberations will necessarily have to be pubThe communication having been read by the lished and circulated at the public expense, that Secretary- our constituents may know what we, their pubMr. GREGG offered the following preamble lie servants, have been doing here; and if our and resolution: works speak well of us, it is all that is necesWHEREAS, It is desirable to complete the sary-further than this, I am unwilling to tax work delegated to us by the people with as lit- the public treasury for their enlightenment. tie delay as possible, and with an eye to the It is an old but trite adage, that a man should strictest economy consistent with the honor of cut his coat according to his cloth. It is equally this body, and the interest of those whom we true that a prudent man should always live represent. Therefore, within his income. This certainly holds good, Resolved, That we deem it inexpedient to re- in matters of domestic economy, and why not port and publish the debates of this Convention apply it to public affairsl Now, the Legisla 26 ture has undertaken to give us the whole cloth would necessarily tend to protract the session from which to cut the garment. They have -a result I most sincerely deprecate, as my shown us the size of our pile, and it becomes private business demands my attention elseus as prudent husbandmen to graduate our ex- where, and I doubt not it is equally so with penses accordingly. They have appropriated many others. the sum of $40,000 to pay the whole expenses And do you ask, why the employment of a of this Convention, including the pay of a Stenographer to report our debates should /Stenographer, the necessary printing and sta- necessarily prolong the session! You know, tionery-and doubtless they conceived this to Mr. President, and so do every one of us, that.be a most munificent and bountiful appropria- mankind are naturally garrulous, fond of contion, altogether adequate to the ends to be ac- troversial debate and litigation-and give them complished. Now let us see how far this ap- a loose rein, and a proper incentive to action, propriation will carry us, under the most pru- and they will talk forever. There is a wonderdent and economical system that we can adopt. ful proclivity in the human mind for immortaliThe daily expenses of this Convention will be ty; an innate grasping after fame and notoover $500, exclusive of printing and stationery. riety; an insatiable longing for a name to live This in sixty days will amount to $30,000. when we-are dead. Such is the phantom we The mileage of members will be about $4,000 are now following; and to most of us it will more, making $34,000-thus leaving but $6,- prove as evanescent and unsubstantial, as the 000 of the appropriation to pay for printing the "baseless fabric of a vision." But still we foljournal of our proceedings, a large edition of low it-blindly pursue it, through all the dethe constitution in pamphlet form, for circula- vious windings of this mortal career. tion among the people, together with such Now here are at least 150 of us, all deeply other printing as may be deemed necessary in imbued with the same perhaps laudable, ambition the progress of our labors; a sum which I fear to do something to immortalize our names, and will be found altogether inadequate to foot the transmit them to posterity; and it is quite natbill. ural that we should seek to avail ourselves of Now this calculation, you will perceive, is this golden opportunity, now offered us to do so. based upon the supposition that our session And how is this desirable end to be attained. will last but sixty days. And, although it is Why sir, each of us have got to set our wits to the opinion of many gentlemen, both in and work, to concoct a speech-no matter on what out of this Convention, that we shall not be subject, nor how irrelevant it may be to the subable to get through in less than three or four ject matter under consideration, so it be of sufmonths, still, I undertake to say, that if we ad- ficient length, and full of sound and fury, sigdress ourselves to the work as we should do, nifying nothing. These speeches must neceswithout wasting too much of our time in mak- sarily be reported by the Stenographer, and ing unnecessary speeches for home consump- by him written out for the Press, for no one tion, we shall be able to complete our labors in else but he can do it. And these speeches, I less than sixty days to the entire satisfaction of take it, will occupy about one day of the sesthe people and to the credit of ourselve, sand sion to each, provided they be of sufficient,on the score of expense, within the appropria- length to occupy one hour to one hour and a tion made by the Legislature. But, sir, let us quarter in their delivery. I say we will not be adopt the course plainly indicated by the Legis- able to get through more than one of these set lature. Let us admit upon this floor the Ste- speeches per day, for that will be as much as nographer so kindly provided for us by his Ex- any one Stenographer can possibly manage to,cellency, the Governor, with the understanding take down and write out, and do justice to himthat all the speeches made here are to be re- self, unless he has a constitution like a steam ported at large, and published in a book, for the locomotive, that can go ahead forever and nevbenefit of our constituents, and the enlighten-'er tire. Like the rest of us, he must have his ment of posterity-and I will not attempt to hours of relaxation from labor, of recreation, set bounds to the duration of our session, nor and of rest, or he will soon wear out-and limit to its expense. I profess to be a practi- then we will be thrown back upon our own recal printer, and know something about what it sources, and have to do our own reporting. costs. And let me assure you that more than The necessary consequence then would be, that ~one half of the appropriation will be absorbed we must accommodate our movements to his in paying for the publication of our speeches, convenience, or some of our most brilliant efand other documents, and we shall have little forts would be wholly lost to the world-a caleft to pay our current expenses here, without lamity! aye, a public calamity, not to be thought asking for a further appropriation, which I am of for a moment. unwilling to do. Thus you perceive that to make but one set But the matter of expense is not the only speech round on the general average, would reobjection to be considered. I take it that the quire a session of 150 days, or about six employment of one single Stenographer on this months. And I fear, sir, that many of us will floor (and that is all the law provides for) not be satisfied with any thing short of the 27 round dozen. Wy sir, I am told that in the work committed to their hands, I say, to sucht some ofs the membrs on this floor, hold out to nography, that will last me as lont as I live. ntuck y o nve w he rethe e, mployedc te' I- re embe it the more vividly, because it was Soenographerd to repor, one hme ber ood ande at the otie the source of much charin chialry of Kentucky.' adnd mortifica retion to me. ansd it i this cir99 speech, and would have made d the eve umitance ell enoh, which has tinged my mind esson, then num eion h n at been sp it ee of nt towards e whole ese, when pini wa goinary siedn typet ill professi, once took wa the ocn in practical scover al area of at least 2,400 pages, making Clay's visit to this city, in the summer of'42 troee volues of 800 pages. The journal of Among the ny thousands who came up soum e of thee emers oi this flootr, hold out to nography, that will lason to see ad to hear thive he enthd as hey have bgtu n, I would m atch them re mmoner t we re several of thuse eadingt was lowing the promptings of our own personal vali- ^whig editors of the State, your humble servtant ty wil and bottom, aanst the benumstbler for I was at tat time the source of much chag ivalbe forever em lueoctavs Lawnd ortification to me. here it is thi o irpNw hs ir, assuminy e a wesed and boduind i th cse tance, perhaps., hich tt s ting speemy mid.session, the number of speeches indicated. with a degree of acerbitv towards the whole d these, when printed in ordinary sized type, will profssion. t ws o r the benefiton of 3or. cover an area of at least 2,400 pages, making Clay's visit to -this city, in the summer of'42-. teree rolumes of 800 pages. The julves ofi eadesn The many eetihouas held i a beaut or publ and private libies, or transmitted rove adjoining the city. Near the soeaker's toour plgreat grand ildl ake anothelule hime ther on tha asa tabl see and to heared frthe e morials of ancestral greatness; thus evidenceiiio press accomnmodationi of the gentlemen of the out the same magnitude. tnd g thu s, by fol- great Commoner, weresent several o the eadi o wing wrhe promptins of our own personal vark- vwhig editorelves of t he Strofered courmtesy. an ty, will thae na es,hr e profoand money willo soaon u the myself cofortably seated ie the tisd te ewoeted. w Irst yo o lt thi e cgus t asse esy chair of i the oliticalre me and pencil iat bly ee your r embarl e iid in for hue octavo s Lawrencebr Weo c ame here otant work uerhaps beautslyl.y Peosse and boneed not bale a of reporin Mr. Clays speech, while speeound And these p recious domensi will be distitbu- as fare aswe wera able, for the ben ef of the trpod ted tsullght the i and, to ourdon the like sheveate of pre paratio. WTemeetiell ir, aeausti our public and private libraries or transmitte befoe adjoining th city commNear the speaker's a n rapher, as conteplated by te resolution stranger, whose name I never knew, pressing to our oreat nran. cildren, as invaluable m- is wa s a t rge th the crod, came for e ad morials of ancestral greatness- thus evidencing p r'ess acconmmodation of the gentlemen of the to pen-or deiybatio suh isptintlic. ny of te intros wced himg e rse nt ar d Stenovra- o you and I were ofce, and t hawe left oure mark. avaied orstelves of the had reorted four me y Bu at whe otgro ad eI ime and montey will be yar in ashid mlton City, fortably seationalnn taes e effected.i r r I pray you oste easy chair, w it paper n beforessional Globe, and pencil in before you embark in it.'hand, ready to commence the important work But seriously, tlr. Preident, w e nee d not be of reported after Mr. Clay, whie Cound should any 0o us be 0 b.'tunae as to make a! gress. The gentleman's appearance, it is true, b1)eoch worthy 0 ben;rT icad anld remembered was not very prepossessing. But as I had no bey d er the l east a rehension, that our constiu- tme we stevral o u t cerentlemeny, or eamie ripod entsh will be e ept ier wiorance of s our dois, lti aals of tate preparation.g withal sir, just wth-oto we dispense with the services of a Ste-be ffereM. Cla commen ce I gladly availed - wiling to do ug Justmce. Away then, with your self of his kind offer to take my place and retnographer, as conte plated by th e resolution strnger, whose nafome never knew, pressing:n-der consideration. Our doors are always his way through the crowd, came to me and tpes n-of e pdeliberations public. any ofl te introduced himself as a regular brehd hStenoram esading paper o th tat ha thter reporters pher, sd fo tw hamortal he had reported for myft n the groucn send ai doubt not they will bs i a protecting n Ci from the externl pressure nable to kees their readers well posted up in all thell encer and Conressould jostle his and that matk ers essential fr thein to knodh. And heeby h ad often reportedo after r. Clay, in Co lday snof us e eso u ortuh ae as to houakeht of the gentleman's appearance, it is tr sle chslation, as re ad fnd a remembt Wawas noti very prepossessing. But as I had no beyond the current hour, doubtan I sho no or a mtto tuo o en thiot these everis wahoeful sentinels on t dentials of character, and being withal r ather wper daytch-tower will combe on doiy ble, and havogeter an indirent reporter, i gladly availed ybe wilno parlinar iduce to prdo us justice.on then, it your self of is kind offbut a mere to tkele mton of it, and rebeyond the o sce.. ssful ac compl hmet of theot- e porv the speech forf te leadi s vi thoughts. A Vag~s ofthe puolic press. Your scientific tou{ch. comfortable seat, I took my place behind himl, es may do well enough for another meridian, and for two mortal hours I stood upon my feet, where they can spend eight whole months in a protectinD. him from the externsO pressure bf single Omnibus, at ~8 pelr day, eatingr canvass- the crow, lest they should jostle his arm, and back ducks, and drinking hock and sherry. It thereby cause him to lose a single word or -may answer well er/ough for such laggards in thought of the" geat speech. But I felt this legislation. as'are found about Washington, privation as nothing, when I reflected upon the wh0o can talk through a whole session of unpar- great advantage it would give me over the rest alleled prolixity without ever losing sight of my cotemporaries of the Press. Through'the starting, point. But for a working men's the kindly aid of this gentleman I should now'Convention, such as this, who receive but $3 be enabled to spread before my readers Mr. per day, and live on common doings, and have Clay's speech in extenso, while they would be no partidular inducement to prolong their stay able to give but a mere skeleton of it, a birdsbeyond the successful accomplishment of the eye view of some of the leading thoughts. And 28 big with this reflection, I stood at least three deportment are properly appreciated. But inches taller in my shoes, and looking down somehow or other a burnt child will dread the upon my co-editors with a sort of patronizing fire, and the wary bird will shun the Fowler's air, as much as to say, "I am sorry for you gen- net. tlemen, but it can't be helped. I have got I hope, Mr. President, that the few desultory the vantage ground of you this time, and no remarks I have had the honor to submit on this mistake.' Well sir, the speech being con- occasion, may not be construed into a desire on eluded, I took my gentleman by the arm, and my part to cover up or hide from my constitumarched him down in town, and,after some re- ents, anything that I may do or say as a memfreshments at my expense, repaired to my room ber of this Convention. No sir, I have nothing to re-write out the speech. After laboring to conceal from them, and in all I may do or over it for more than an hour, he finally suc- say, will endeavor to act as though they were ceeded in writing out about one page of fools- present, and looking in upon me from every cap; and on glancing my eye over what helhad quarter of this lobby, scrutinizing my conduct written, I fournd it but a miserable caricature of with a jealous eye. The place I occupy here the able and eloquent address I had just been was wholly unsought by me. My election to listening to. But consoling myself with the a seat in this body was the unsolicited and freereflection that I should be able to draw upon will offering of as noble and generous a conthe resources of my own memory, to dress it stituency as any gentleman on this floor has up and make it passable, I urged him to con- the honor to represent. And as such I esteem tinue his labors. He soon, however, complain- it the more highly; and so long as I sustain ed of lassitude, and of being nervous, in con- my present relation to them, will endeavor, in sequence of the heat and labors of the day, all things, to prove myself worthy of their and proposed to adjourn to some restaurat or generous confidence. coffee house, to recruit his strength, by the ap- And what better evidence need be adduced plication of proper stimulants. I remonstrated of their noble generosity, their political magwith him, and proffered to go myself and bring nanimity, and as some would doubtless infer, him whatever he might want. But my remon- of their sterling good sense, than is to be found strances were all in vain. Go he must, andgo in the presence on this floor of my worthy he did-but he never returned;-and that was democratic colleague, now sitting on my right, the last I saw of him. representing as he does a county claiming a Now, was ever editorial wight in such a fix, popular political majority of at least 500 against before or sincel There I was, with Mr. Clay's that party to which he belongs l And why did great speech before me, reported at large, by they send him here l Why, casting aside all a practical Stenographer of large experience- political considerations, and overleaping all the partially written out, but the great body of it great barriers of party, why did they endorse still in hieroglyphics. Of what avail would it him up hither, clothed with the high and rebe to me or my readersl Neither the one nor sponsible functions of a representative delethe other would ever be any the wiser for it. gate? It was, sir, because they had great and It was to me all Pottawattamie, and I doubt important interests to subserve, reaching fare whether the genius of Champoleon himself, beyond and above all the mere political and would have been able to decipher it, and ren- party conflicts of the day. It was that they der it into intelligible English. believed he would look to the subservance of The next morning I heard of my worthy those interests with the broad and comprehenfriend in one of the lowest doggeries of this sive eye of the patriot, and not with the narcity, gloriously drunk, and hallooing, "hurra for row and contracted vision of the mere partizan. Van Buren!" Being deeply mortified at the re- It was that they believed, in his representative sult, and knowing that I should be bored to character, he would rise superior to the behests death by my brother editors, who enjoyed the of party, and frown indignantly upon every joke amazingly, I ordered my horse and buggy, attempt that might be made to sow the seeds and left the town, fully determined in my own of political dissension in our midst, come from mind never again to employ a Stenographer to what quarter it may. Sincerely do I trust, that report a speech for me. neither he nor I, political antipodes though we And here, Mr. President, allow me once for are, may never for a moment lose sight of that all, to disclaim any other than the kindest feel- | duty which we owe to our common constituings towards the worthy gentleman, who has ents, or forfeit that confidence which they have been selected to report the debates of this con- reposed in us, by lending ourselves here to the vention. I would not for the world, for I could accomplishment of political or party ends, not, insinuate any thing derogatory to his char- either present or prospective. acter or qualifications. I doubt not he is a Now sir, I do not pretend to know what gentleman of eminent qualifications in the line course my honorable colleague has taken in of his profession; and that he is able to render those informal meetings of the party, out of entire satisfaction to any deliberative body,where doors, alluded to on yesterday. by the honoratalents of a high order, joined to a gentlemanly ble gentleman from Tippecanoe; (Mr. Pettit.) 29 nor have I any desire to penetrate the secrets He desired to know whether the gentleman's of that inexorable inquisition, where the bud- remarke were in order? Cries of go on, go on ding hopes of some of the young democracy -hear him out. were cut down so ruthlessly and withered in an Mr. GREGG continuing. Doubtless the genhour. I do not know what agency, if any, my tleman from Allen is becoming a little restive. democratic colleague had in these ultra move- But I hope he will bear it patiently. When I ments of the party; but this I do know, that was interrupted, Mr. President, I was going on -his constituents and mine will be gratified to to remark, that when I see gentlemen rising on learn that the weight of his influence was this floor, and hear them talk about forming thrown against the attempt made to rear the democratic constitutions-when I hear then.standard of political intolerance in the organi- talking about employing none but democratic zation of this body, by which the few whigs printers, at democratic prices-which being inupon this floor were virtually disfranchised in terpreted means 25 per cent, above what it is the election of our officers. intrinsically worthf in short, sir, when I see And why was it necessary for the Democrat- honorable gentlemen who have filled high plaic party to meet in secret conclave, in their ces in the councils of the nation, rising upon star-chamber court below, to determine who this floor, and with unblushing effrontery proshould or who should not be candidates before posing to take the election of our officers from this Convention? The whigs did not pretend this body where itrightfully belongs, and comnto offer a single candidate for aly office what- mit it to the arbitrament of an irresponsible ever, noteven as a hewer of wood and drawer of cabal out of doors, wholly unknown to our water. They were perfectly willing to con- laws and political institutions; when I see cede to you all the offices of' honor and profit such things as these enacted in the broad light which it was within the power of this Conven- of day, I confess, sir, that it stirs the old Adam tion to bestow. Nor were they found acting in me-it warms up my whig blood, as of yore with any degree of concert, as between the — and I feel somewhat as didFitz James when he various rival candidates of the democratic party encountered Rhoderick Dhu and his clan upon who were pressing their claims upon our con- the mountain. But I trust that the efferves-.sideration. Then why drive this unpretending cence of party, which has manifested itself minority into a position of political antago- here, will soon subside, and we shall hear no nism Why treat them as though they had more of it. And although some of the old no political rights upon this floor, but were Hunkers of the party may endeavor to keep mere interlopers, having no interest in common the political cauldron boiling, still I hope there with our democratic friends in the election of may be found among the young democracy a good and faithful officers? Why, I say, thus sufficiency of genuine salt to preserve this body needlessly arouse their just indignation and from political putrescense. resentment, by forcing them into a position Before leaving this subject, allow me to make where they must necessarily feel and acknowl- a single suggestion to our democratic friends, edge their political inferiority?-Nay, that is and that is this. They should by all means hold not exactly what I mean-but their numerical another grand pow-wow in the courtroom below, weakness on this floor, for that is all the inferi- in order to settle the important matter as to ority they are willing to admit. The whigs of who should wear the collar, and take precedence this body, sir, claim to be your equal in intel- in the order of business here. Upon this subligence-your equal in patriotism-your equal ject there seems to be a very active rivalry goin a high and holy regard for the best interests ing on, especially between the gentleman from and honor of our common country-your equal Tippecanoe, on my left, and the gentleman in all the essential elements that go to make from Alien, on my right. It is therefore highly -up the man. In short, sir, your equal in all important, if not necessary to the future harand everything but mere brute force. And let mony of this body, that this question should be me admonish you, that before this Convention settled at once. Let us know upon which of closes, you may have occasion to learn that these rival candidates for honors present and they are fully your equal in a proper vindica- prospective, the mantle of greatness is to fall. tion of their rights upon this floor. (Mr. Pettit remarked that he surrendered to Sir, I came up to this Convention, determined the gentleman from Allen.) Well, sir, I think to forget, as far as it was possible ffr me to for- he has somewhat the advantage of you, if the get, that I was a whig. I came here deter- frequency of his appearance upon the stage is mined to forget that I ever had been a warm to form any criterion by which we are to judge. political partizan -and to know nothing save In the light of the great future to which we the great and paramount interests of the peo- are looking, he will doubtless have the advantple about which we have assembled here to de- age of you.-For when the antiquarian shall liberate. But, Sir, when I am met at the very take down from its shelf the ponderous volume threshold with the rallying cry of democracy containing the debates of this Convention, and — when the bibroch of party is sounded inkmy ear. begin to turn over its ample leaves in searchof (Mr. BORDEN rose to a question of order. the great man of this body who figured most 30 conspicuously, his eye will incontinently fall Mr. KELSO said, he believed the proposiupon the gentleman from Allen, as not occu- tion now before the Convention was to dispying a prominent position in the foreground pense with the services of a Stenographer.of the picture, but throughout the whole, from He was inclined to the opinion, however, that. Alpha to Omega, from the beginning to the the gentleman from Jefferson, was more in end, as being singularly conspicuous in all jest than in earnest in offering this resolution. things. He could not believe that a man of his well But, to return to the question under consid- known ability, and sound understanding, and eration. I believe, sir, the adoption of the experience, would, for a moment, desire to disresolution I have had the honor to present, will pense with the services of such an officer in meet with the entire concurrence, not only of this body; and more especially, after the apmy immediate constituents, but of the whole pointment had been directed by law, and made people throughout the State. I honestly be- in conformity with that law. He apprehendiieve, sir, with me,they will regard the employ- ed that the gentleman wanted, merely to get a nent of a Stonographer here as a useless sly hit at the democratic members in this hall, expenditure of money, and the publication of and sought, rather ingeniously, to whip the the debates of the Convention in an embodied democrats over the shoulders of the Stenoform, as the consummation of human folly. grapher. He did not blame the gentleman, Neither the one nor the other is at all neces- for he had certainly been treated somewhat sary. For, as I before remarked, the newspa- badly, he would confess, in the matter of the per press of our State, having able and efficient appointment of officers of the Conventionreporters here, will be competent to the task not having been allowed to have the selection of keeping the people posted up in regard to of a single officer. On that ground, he wag our doings, and I, for one, am willing to trust willing to accord to the gentleman, all the my reputation in their hands.; satisfaction that he could derive from adminisBut it may be argued that the publication of tering to the democrats a sound castigation.the debates of this Convention will be found He confessed they deserved every word of deeminently useful for future reference, in order nunciation that the gentlemam had bestowed to explain the meaning of certain provisions upon them. of the Constitution, which, to some, may ap- Now, said Mr. Kelso, a word in regard to the pear dark and ambiguous. Why, sir, I would Stenographer. I am in favor of retaining that as soon think of looking into the Koran of officer. I believe that we ought to have his Mahomet, or of consulting the sublime and services, and I regard it as a wise provision of beautiful vision of John in the Isle of Patmos, the Legislature, that his appointment was prcfor an elucidation of the meaning of the ten vided for. The gentleman seems to think that commandments-a code of morals that adapts by retaining that officer, we shall prolong the itself to the capacity of every mind, and fully session of this Convention. I want that officer explains itself without the aid of a commenta- to remain here for the very opposite purpose; tor. And so I trust it will be with the instru- for I think the gentleman from Jefferson will ment that may emanate from our hands. Not want very few of such cayenne pepper speechthat I would compare the frail works of manil es published as the one he has just made, and with the perfect works of the great Law Giver this, perhaps, will be the last one he will make. of the Universe. Not that I would be so irrever- for I have no doubt that when he sees what he ent as to compare the crude and imperfect Con- has said, published, he.will be rather ashamed stitution which we may deliver to the people,for of it. He has done more in that speech to their future governance, with that divine and per- stir up party feeling and set the cauldron, feet Constitution delivered to Moses amid the that he speaks of, boiling, than any other genthunderings of Mount Sinai. No, sir, this would tleman in this Convention. He may have done be like bringing down the full orbed glories of it, however, without feeling the force of what the sun to the common level and lustre of a he was saying. Now, my opinion is that when farthing rush-light. But, sir, speaking relative- we know that our speeches are to go forth to ly, after the manner of men, and comparing the public, we will be a little more careful things temporal with temporal things, may I what sort of speeches we make. not hope that our Constitution, when fully I insist on retaining this officer for a further digested, will be found so perfectly free from reason. It is provided by law that the instruall ambiguity as to require none of those facti- ment which is to be the work of our hands is tious aids to render it intelligiblel May I not to go forth to the people; and that they are to hope we shall all labor, with one mind and one pass their judgment upon it, to decide whether spirit, to make it, as it should be, so perfectly they will accept or reject it. It is necessary, plain, and simple, and consistent, in all its therefore, that the people should be advised parts, that any child may understand it? And from day to day of our proceediugs and of all he who thinks it will be otherwise pays but a the arguments advanced here, for or against poor compliment to the common sense under- such propositions as may be presented to us; standing of this intelligent body. so that they may, when the constitution is pre 31 sented to them, act understandingly in regard and commissioned by the Governor, as they to it. This is, in my opinion, a sufficient rea- would to dismiss this officer. son why this officer should be retained, and I In regard to the question of economy, perhope that at an early day, provision will be haps it would be well for them to look, as made for the publication of our debates in the practical men ought to look, at the actual cost newspapers of this city, that they may go forth which this work was likely to entail upon and be read by the people; so that by the time them. Now, continued Mr. Owen, a Convenwe shall have finished our work, they may be tion to amend the Constitution of the State as well advised concerning it, as we are our- does not meet every year, nor once in ten or selves. I want him retained for that purpose, twenty years. A generation has passed away and I will risk the publication of what little I since our present Constitution was made. A have to say, and let it go for what it may be generation will, in all human probability, pass worth. away before we make another. Without goI hope this resolution will be voted down. ing into a close examination of the actual cost I would move to lay it on the table, were it not of reporting our debates at the rate that is that I despise such a motion, besides I want to paid for reporting Congressional debates, let hear all that may be said on either side. us suppose that the debates of this Conven-Mr. STEVENSON said, that the Conven- tion will be about equal in length to the detion had a specified duty to perform, which was bates of the New York State Convention;the expense of reporting will be, according to to form a Constitution, and they were not call- c abot twentie ndred ed on to regulate such matters as the pay of my lation, about twenty-five hundred doltheir officers, or their own pay; that was done, d t their officers, or their own pay; that was done lar& Now, this sum, it will be recollected, is by t.he Legilature. The Legislature had also to be distributed over a space of at least twenauthorized the employmentof a Stenographerd I ty-five years-for it is not to be supposed that uthtorized the employment of a Stenographer, Ianother Convention is to be held and another that Stenographer was not an officer of this Constitution framed within a less time than body, but an officer of the Legislature, or more properly speaking, an officer of the State.- twenty-five years. Thi will give an expense He had been appointed under authority of an of one hundred dollars a year, to be borne by act of the Legislature, and this Convention had the people of this State, for a work which is to no right to interfere in any way with that ap- remain throughout all time, and to be read at pointment. If it was right that the State each man's hearthstone, and in every dwelling -should incur this expense, the Legislature within the State. Now, let us see how much alone was responsible He did not believe each inhabitant of the State will have to pay that the Convention had any right whatever, to for this work. There are about a million of inhabitants in this State at present, and supfix the amount of compensation to be given to habitants in this State at present, and supthis officer. That was a matter for the Leis- that at the end of twenty-five years there lature to determine. They having provided should be only the same number. One hunthat a Stenographer should be appointed for dred dollrs a year divided among a million the purpose of giving the debates of the Con- wi give to each individual the one-hundredth vention to the country; it was their act and part of a cent. To a famly of ten persons t they alone were responsible, and not th n- would be n-the tenth part of a cent. I certanvention. This being the case, he for one was ly do not think that the inhabitants of the vention. This being the case, he for one was willing that the people, should have the bene- tate will regard this expense as very burthenfit of the services of this officer; but he con- some n view ofthe advantage they will derive tended that it was the duty of the Legislature from the proposed publication. to pay him, and he had no doubt they would do Besides, by paying ths expense we obtain a so with liberality. copy-right of the book, which we may sell if we choose; and I am not sure but the copyThe Stenographer was here by virtue of his right will sell for one-half the price that we appointment and they could not get rid of him shall pay for the work; then, instead of the except by expulsion. He trusted he would hundredth part of a cent, it will be but the discharge his duties faithfully. two-hundredth part of a cent for each indiMr. OWEN said, he should not have added vidual. a word to what had been said by the gentle- Now, I am not in the habit of recommendman from Putnam, were it not that an argu- ing a thing because others have done it; on ment had been made against retaining the the contrary, I generally have some good reaStenographer who had been appointed, on the son for what I propose. But I know of no ground of expense. The gentleman from Put- State in which a Convention has recently been nam had very properly stated that the Steno- held, which has not provided for the reporting grapher was a commissioned officer of the of their debates; and I doubt very much State, and that he was here in virtue of his whether any publication will be read with commission. He conceived they would have more interest by the people of this State than as good a right to dismiss the Secretary of the reports of our debates. It cannot be deState or any other officer, authorized by law, nied that they will be eminently useful, as a 32 commentary upon the Constitution which we hiring a more commodious hall for the use of are about to form. The debates which occur- the Convention; and if such a hall should be red in the Convention that formed the Consti- procured, he supposed they would have a right tution of the United States, are always read to pay for it under the general powers conferwith much interest. I will not say that ours red upon them. If it could, without practical will be as valuable as those debates are, but inconvenience, be left to the Legislature, he they will be as important to Indiana as those should have no objection; but he did not think are to the United States. I repeat, sir, that I it would be a proper treatment of this officer, think, in the first place, we have no right to who had come a very considerable distance to reverse the decision of the Legislature in re- discharge the duties he had been appointed to gard to this matter; and in the second place, perform, if the question of his compensation if we have the right we ought not to exer- should be delayed. He supposed the proper cise it. plan would be, for the President of the ConMr. PETTIT moved that the resolution be vention to inform himself what was the price laid upon the table. usually paid for reporting by Messrs. Blair & The motion was agreed to. Rives, and Gales & Seaton, of Washington Mr. OWEN then offered the resolutions City. So far as his own recollection went, he which he had before proposed as a substitute believed that the compensation of a stenografor the resolution offered by the gentleman pher for taking notes and writing out his refrom Jefferson (Mr. Gregg.) port and preparing it for the printer, was five Mr. KELSO said, he doubted whether they dollars per column of two thousand words. had a right to fix the compensation of the, Ste- Mr. REED of Clark said, he believed it nographer; he would therefore move to amend would be agreed upon all hands that some acthe resolution by striking out so much as re- tion in reference to the compensation of the lated to the price to be paid for reporting, so Stenographer should be taken, and he thought as to leave it to the Legislature to fix the the better way would be to let the question be price. determined by a committee. He would move, Mr. PETTIT said, he would suggest that a therefore, that the subject be referred to a sedifficulty would arise in case the proposition of lect committee of seven. the gentleman should prevail. How would Mr. KELSO withdrew his motion to amend, the Presideht of the Convention know how and much to certify for, unless the price should be The question being taken upon the motion determined? of the gentleman from Clark, it was agreed to, Mr. KELSO. I move, sir, to strike out the and second resolution. I do not think it can be The resolution was referred to a select comshown that we have the power or the right to mittee. fix the amount of remuneration which the Ste- BRIGHT moved to take from the table Mr. BRIGHT moved to take from the table nographer shall receive. r.a DOBSN said, c that, from the reading the resolution of Mr. Gregg on the subject of r.of the actDOBSO he saiupposed, tha the Governor hadintheg the Stenographer, and refer the same to the of the act, he supposed the Governor had the select committee of seven; a contract for the reporting; select committee of seven; power to make a contract for the reporting; Which was decided in the affirmative. if so, he could see no necessity for the resolu- Whereupon the Chair announced the comti. ^Whereupon the Chair announced the comtion. Mr. OWEN said, that there was no contract, mittee of seven on the resolution of Mr. Gregg as he was informed, and it was quite evident in regard to a Stenographer, and the resolution of Mr. Owen on the same subject, to consist of that there must necessarily be some resolutionof M on the ame to consst the following gentlemen: or specification in regard to the compensation the following gentlemen:.1.. ^ ^~~~Messrs. Owen, Morrison of Washington to be paid to the Stenographer, for it was ne-. n s cessary that he should be paid from time to re, Pepper of Oho, Nofsiner, Clark o time as he did the work. If the gentleman Tippecanoe, and Niles. considered the compensation here proposed to On motion of Mr. TERRY, it was be too large, he would be glad to hear some Ordered, That three hundred copies of the proposition from him in regard to it. He Constitution of the State of Indiana be printed would have been glad if the Legislature had for the use of the Convention. determined the amount of compensation, and UBLIGATION OF THE AUTHORIZED REPORTS. relieved the Convention from all responsibility upon that point; but as they had not done so, Mr. MORRISON of Marion offered the folif the work was to be executed, it was certain- lowing resolution: ly incumbent on the Convention to make the Resolved, That a committee of seven memnecessary arrangement for the payment. As bers be appointed by the President, and authorto their power to do so, he thought there could ized to make such arrangements with the pubbe no doubt. A committee had been raised lishers of newspapers in this city, as will inyesterday upon the motion of the gentleman sure a correct daily published report of the profrom Wayne, (Mr. Rariden,) to negotiate for ceedings of this Convention, for the use of the 33 members and for distribution among the peo- been urged by the gentleman from Clinton, ple. (Mr. Sims.) This resolution had been advised Mr. KELSO said, he was in favor of the by many gentlemen of the Convention. The proposition in the main; but before binding common argument in favor of it was this: Evthemselves by any contract for the publication ery morning, and from day to day, members of the proceedings, he hoped some provis- would like to review what might be passing beion would be made with regard to postage. It fore them; and by the proposed arrangement occurred to him that the committee appointed each morning they could see precisely what under this resolution could go to the Post Mas- had been done on the preceding day. There ter of the city and make the necessary ar- was an additional argument. It was provided rangements about the postage, so as to relieve by law that the deliberations of this Convenmembers of the Convention from the burthen tion, in the shape of a new Constitution, should of paying the postage from their own pockets. be submitted to the people for their approval Unless some such arrangement could be made or rejection, and if the Convention should go he considered it idle to talk about taking the on and publish nothing but the volume of depapers. He offered the following amend- bates, not one man in a hundred, when the ment: time for its submission should come, would be "And that said committee ascertain and re- at all informed with regard to what had been port to this Convention what arrangement can done in connection with the changes and modibe made with the Post Master in this city con- fications of the existing Constitution; whilst, cerning the postage and the payment thereof, on the other hand, if they were to take such on such letters, papers, documents, &c., as may newspapers as would print the daily reports of be sent to and from the officers and members their proceedings they would go abroad amongst of this Convention, during its session." the people as their work progressed, and give Mr. MORRISON of Marion accepted the them opportunities by memorial or petition to amendment. make such suggestions with reference to Mr. SIMS said, he would like to know by changes and general principles as would aid what authority the Convention could take them in their work, and materially diminish newspapers in this way and send them off their responsibility. But there was another through the mail by the cart-load, and throw matter: Should they refuse to purchase these the expense upon the Treasury. He would papers, the publishers could not afford to incur like to know what amount of light these news- the expense of publishing the lengthy daily repapers would throw out. Not one citizen of ports, or even an intelligible condensation of the State, out of ten, would ever see one of them. But past experience assured them that them. He contended that the operation of the they would publish the reports at as cheap a resolution would be partial. He knew that the rate as possible. The Legislature for twenty Legislature, some years ago, were in the habit years past had taken this course, and the peoof buying and distributing newspapers, but the ple had sent men back here, year after year, practice, he believed, had gone down on ac- who had constantly advocated this course. He count of the objection that he had stated. But believed, also, the people every where in the where, he would ask, was the law to authorize State were in favor of it, except it might be, this thing on the part of the Convention? He as the gentleman had affirmed, in the county knew that the Legislature had authorized the of Clinton. He considered that this was not, members of the Convention to receive three by any means, an expensive mode of giving dollars per day, as a compensation for their at- correct intelligence to the people. He was tendance, but there was no more authority of aware that there was no law to authorize the law for the purchase of newspapers for the specific appropriation, only that there was a Convention, than there was for the payment general fund appropriated to be used for defrayof the expense of boarding. He knew that the ing whatsoever expense might be necessarily people where he resided were opposed to this incurred. He held the doctrine that this Conpractice,notthat they were wanting at all in liber- vention was sovereign; that they were the peoality or a disposition to patronize the press, ple, and had a right to do, in a reasonable manbut because they were opposed to all useless ner, everything that the people could do, were expenditures; because they knew that the they here in our places. He held that the State was in debt, and because they believed Convention had the right to call upon the Treasthat, like every honest man, the government urer for an amount sufficient to defray every should pay all its just debts. For these rea- necessary expense of the body, even if it should sons they had instructed him to employ his in- require a hundred thousand dollars beyond the fluence toward clipping off and cutting down amount appropriated by the Legislature. He every useless public expenditure, and he was could not think that so intelligent a gentleman determined to go for this principle heart and as the Delegate from Clinton would be willing hand. to light his candle and put it under a bushel. Mr. MORRISON of Marion, said that as the He thought that every act here should be as mover of the resolution, he felt it incumbent open as the day to all the people. upon him to answer the objections which had Mr. SIMS said, he did not wish to be under3 34 stood as opposed to taking newspapers, but he Assembly, for the reason that members had to, meant to say that because we get three dollars send round, every day, a new list to the puba day, which enables us to eat and drink well lishers' office. He would be in favor of any while here, that is no reason why we should arrangement by which members could send tax the people for our newspapers or our post- their packages directly to the post-office. age. He was not for taking money out of the Mr. KENT suggested, that the difficulty treasury in this manner. He thought it might might be obviated, in part, by requiring one of be better applied to the payment of the public the publishing establishments to distribute all debt, which he hoped would be soon in such a the papers. course of payment that we could see a clear Mr. READ, of Clark, said, that the postsky. But even if we were out of debt, had we master had refused to receive them in that not occasion to foster common schools 1 He way. considered that the economy of the govern- Mr. KENT. He did not refuse last winter. ment should be as rigid as that of a man on his Mr. MORRISON, of Marion, asked and obfarm. He had a resolution which he desired tained the unanimous consent of the Convento offer by way of amendment. tion, to add to his resolution the following The PRESIDENT said, the gentleman's clause: amendment could not now be entertained. And that said committee report to this ConMr. BASCOM said, he came here pledged to vention the result of their arrangements, for send back all the papers and documents which approval or rejection. he could procure. He had on his desk the The resolution, as amended, was adopted. names of two hundred of his constituents, who Whereupon the Chair appointed the followwere desirous of knowing what the Convention ing gentlemen said committee: were doing. They were men who took an in- Messrs. Morrison, of Marion, Kent, Colfax,, terest'in the subject which brought the Con- Owen, Gregg, Bascom, and Pettit. vention together, and they wanted information On motion of Mr. EDMONSTON, of their doings. It would be impossible for The Convention adjourned until 2 o'clock him to send to all these persons at his own ex- P. M. pense. He concurred with the gentleman AFTERNOON SESSION. from Marion (Mr. Morrison) in the opinion that there was no portion of the people in this State, ORDER OF BUSINESS. except, perhaps, the county of Clinton, who Mr. HALL offered for adoption the followwould not be happy to receive the reports of ing resolution: the proceedings of the Convention. He had Resolved, That no part of the present Connever heard, in his part of the State, any corn- stitution of Indiana, nor any proposed amendplaints about receiving too many papers; on ment thereto, shall be referred to any committhe contrary, the complaint, as far as he had tee other than the committee of the whole, unheard, was, that they did not get enough-that til the same has been considered and approved their members were delinquent. The people by the Convention as proper to be inserted in were willing that the money of the public trea- and made a part of the new or amended Constisury should be used for this purpose. tution. Mr. SMITH, of Scott, said, it occurred to Mr. HALL said, his object in offering this him that the post-master of the city must act resolution was to arrive at some point in relaaccording to law, and that he could make no tion to the manner in which business should such arrangement as was proposed. As to come before the Convention. A committee taking the papers, he was perfectly willing to had been appointed on Monday for the purpose do that, and he could say that the people from of preparing rules for the government of the his part of the State would be glad to receive body, and it was thought to be a part of the them. According to the law, the postage must duty of that committee to recommend the numbe pre-paid, unless sent from the publishers' ber and character of the standing committees. office. But from the terms of the resolution, He proposed this resolution as part of the it seemed to him that the Convention was to ground upon which that committee might premake some arrangement for the payment of dicate their action. There were several prothe postage, and his object was to enquire positions before the Convention in relation to whether it was intended that this postage the manner in which business should be brought should be paid out of the treasury or out of the up for consideration, and there were objections pockets of members 1 or whether the papers to all of them. He had taken this resolution were to be sent from the publishers' office? from the proceedings of a late convention of Mr. READ, of Clark, said, he was in favor an adjoining State, which he thought to be betof the resolution, and had always been in favor ter than any other which he could select. It of taking and distributing papers; but there proposed that all general principles which came had been a change in the post-office laws, in- up to be considered in the formation of a conterfering with this matter, so that it had come stitution, should be considered in committee of to be almost wholly neglected by the General the whole before they were referred to any 35 subordinate committee-it being more espe- of subjects to the committee of the whole, did cially the business of subordinate committees not always induce a great waste of time. to arrange the details of business than to settle Mr. EDMONSTON observed, that with regeneral principles; for example, there was the gard to the amendment, he would take occasion proposition that all officers shall be elected by to say, that he saw no necessity for another the people. Could any man think of inserting resolution upon the subject embraced in it, since that proposition in the Constitution before a the committee on rules were bound to report decision was had upon it in committee of the the number of standing committees. Then whole Convention 3 But after discussion and why encumber the journal with such proceeddecision by the whole Convention, it would be ings 1 He desired to say one word with regard proper to refer the proposition to the appropri- to the resolution of the gentleman from Gibate sub-committee, to prepare the matter in son, (Mr. Hall.) He could see no necessity for detail. Much time would be gained in this referring the consideration of every question way, according to his opinion; because, after which might be presented to the committee of the sense of the Convention in committee of the whole. The chief objection against this the whole had been taken, the sub-committee course, to his mind, was that the action of the would have only to shape the proposition and body in committee of the whole, was never prepare it for a place in the Constitution. But journalized. He supposed when any gentleman if the proposition should be first referred to a introduced a proposition, it ought to be joursub-committee, it must afterwards come before nalized, that it might be laid before his constitthe Convention in the same manner as an origi- uents. For this reason he should oppose the nal proposition. He had taken his resolution resolution. He supposed that the committee from the proceedings of the convention of a on rules would report the number, and desigsister State, and it struck him with force, as a nate the character of the standing committees; better proposition to facilitate business than upon which the Convention would afterwards any which had yet been proposed here. The take its own action, and adopt, reject, or amend Convention could not have the benefit of the the proposition. discussions in the sub-committees, and the Mr. READ of Clark said, that the only diftime taken up in these discussions would be ference between the committee which he procamparatively lost. But in committee of the posed to constitute, and the committee on rules whole, each member would have a chance to was, that the members of the latter committee express his opinion, and to give his vote, upon were not taken equally from the various parts every proposition; and after that the several of the State, whereas the members of the compropositions would be ready for the action of mittee which he proposed would be. sub-committees, which would be merely to per- Mr. BORDEN, (in his seat.) They are tafect them in all their details. ken one from each judicial circuit. Mr. READ of Clarke proposed a resolution Mr. MAGUIRE said, he would suggest that similar to thREAD of Clarke proposed Monroe. a resolution similar, but involving rather more similar to that offered by Mr. READ of Monroe. amendment of the gentleman from than the amendment of the gentleman from He then said, he was satisfied that what- Clark, (Mr. Read,) was offered the other day, ever time might be occupied in preliminary dis- by the gentleman from Monroe, (Mr. Read.) cussions in committee of the whole, would be It seemed to his mind not strictly in order to have lost to the Convention. e preferred that the two propositions of the same nature pending at standing committee should be appointed, and the same time. The proceeding might be in the Constitution blocked out by them, and re- order; he did not pretend to say that it was ported to the Convention, and then to let these not, nor had he any objection to the proposition reports, as they come in, be referred for consid- of the gentleman from Clark; but the propoeration to the committee of the whole. So far sition of the gentleman from Monroe, being a as legislative matters were concerned, a com- e more complete, he should give it the premittee of the whole had scarcely been known ference, and intended to support it. in this Hall the last five years; not two hours Mr. READ of Clarke said, he was aware of all that time had been occupied here in com- of the pendency of the proposition of the mittee of the whole. It had been found that gentleman from Monroe; but apprehending after debate for several days upon a proposition that the proposition of the gentleman from ia committee of the whole, it would have to Gibson (Mr. Hall) might succeed, and so sureturn to the House, and there the very same persede the former proposition, he had thrown proceedings would have to be gone over again. in his amendment. If it were not that the Constitution provides Mr. DOBSON said, the gentleman from that all questions embracing matter connected Allen (Mr. Borden) had offered a proposition with revenue shall be considered in committee which had been adopted, and under which of the whole, he could almost say that that there had been created a committee on rules. committee was useless in legislation, and he The gentleman from Monroe (Mr. Read) had appealed to the experience of old members of offered a proposition for a separate committee the Legislature to say, whether the reference to designate the standing committees. It had 36 been thought by some, that the committee amendment offered by the gentieman from under the resolution of the gentleman from Clark, while he made no objection to the propAllen, was charged not only with the matter i osition of the gentleman from Monroe. It of reporting rules for the government of the I made little difference with him, which should Convention, but that they should also report be adopted; but, since the former was under the number, and designate the character of the, consideration, he would like to see it adopted. standing committees. Herein, as it occurred The PRESIDENT declared the proposition to him, consisted all the difficulty. For him- of the gentleman from Clark to be out of order, self, he supposed that both tile proposition of under the thirty-second rule for the government the gentleman from Monroe, and the proposi- of the last House of Representatives. tion of the gentleman from Clark, were entire- Mr. BORDEN explained, that the resolution ly unnecessary. He was gratified, however, authorizing the appointment of the committee to see them brought forward, because the ac- on rules, was in substance the same which he tion of the Convention upon them would settle had read from the proceedings and debates this difficulty. He was gratified, also, to see of the Kentucky Convention. He derived the the proposition of the gentleman from Gibson, intimation that had been made, out of doors, though he was opposed to it, because he de- that the committee on rules was to swallow up sired the whole of the proceedings here to be all other committees, and said that nothing of open to all the people, which could not be the the kind had been thought of. He said he uncase with proceedings in committee of the derstood the duty of that committee to be to whole. Besides, if they were to go into con- compile something like rules for the governrnittee of the whole, with everything, they ment of the proceedings of this body, but he would have no occasion for standing commit- perceived that the committee on rules in the tees. He thought that every subject should Kentucky Convention, had reported the numfirst be considered by the standing committees; ber of the standing committees. For himself, he and then the proposition which they might report would prefer that this matter should be refercould either at once be considered and disposed red to some other committee, especially since of by the committee, or referred to a commit- the proposition of the gentleman from Monroe, tee of the whole. This was a question which had been offered. This committee would natshould be determined, one way or the other, urally feel a delicacy about reporting the numsoon. Being himself named upon the commit- ber of standing committees, without special tee on rules, he would be glad to have an ex- instruction. He referred briefly to the immepression of the sense of the Convention upon it, diate necessity for the formation of various in order that they might know how to act. standing committees. The proposition of the Mr. NAVE said, he thought it could scarcely gentleman from Gibson, was, first to refer the be possible that gentlemen were ready to de- consideration of evrey proposition to the comtermine that no proposition should be referred mittee of the whole; another gentlemen had to any subordinate committee. If they were proposed the appointment of a committee to be to decide this question in the affirmative, they composed of seventeen or eighteen members, might as well neglect altogether, the appoint- and that all matters should be referred to it. ment of standing committees. If he understood Another gentleman's position was, that there the proposition of the gentleman from Gibson, should be no more than three standing- cornnothing was to be voted upon or reported by mittees. any committee, except what the Convention Mr. PETTIT interposing, said, that the had first considered; the Convention was to gentleman was mistaken. He did not propose reserve to itself the power to decide upon ev- that there should be no more than three comery thing first, as in committee of the whole. mittees. If this course were to be taken, it was his Mr. BORDEN (continuing) asked why it opinion that the business of the session could was considered improper for him to propose to not be terminated in three months. He con- raise more. There are, said he, a number of sidered it the better course to refer distinct conservative gentlemen here, who like the propositions to separats committees, and after present Constitution-who thinkit a very good they report, let the Convention act upon their one, and who would like to make it the groundreport, as in committee of the whole. He work of action, by taking it up in articles or would like to know who first discovered the sections, and proceeding to improve and amend, wisdom of this proposition, depriving the Con- adopt or reject them. These gentlemen might vention of the liberty of sending anything to a very properly go into committee of the whole, committee. It must have originated in the with their work. But there was another porState of Kentucky, where everything was built tion of the Convention, he said, with whom he up and sustained by stump speaking. He con- himself stood, who did not think the old Conceived the proposition to be contrary to the stitution a very good one. A majority of the genius of our institutions-antagonistic to the Convention had come up here from constituents free spirit of investigation; he was, there- who demanded important changes in that infore opposed to it. He was in favor of the strument; and this was the reason why they 37 thought the whole subject ought to be divided, appropriate sub-committee to arrange the prinand. appropriately distributed amongst several ciple in its details. But according to the rule standing committees, with the view of intro- preferred by the gentleman from Hendricks, ducing such amendments as might be deemed the proposition would be first referred to a subnecessary. He desired the most mature delib- committee-that committee would report upon eration on every division of the subject; first, it to the Convention. After that the Convenbefore the standing committees, and then in tion would have to decide upon the principle, in committee of the whole Convention. He and if the principle were rejected in whole or relied upon the standing committee for the most in part, the work of the sub-committee would important duties. He recollected a gentleman be useless. According to his notion, it would speaking to him of the Louisiana Constitution- be a waste of time to take this course. It was al Convention, which met several years ago, in his proposition, that the opinion of the ConvenApril, at a small town somewhere in the inte- tion upon every principle should be first had in rior of the State; and in the warm weather, committee of the whole, in order that the standrather than occupy their convention room, they ing committees might know distinctly how to were in the habit of going out by committees act. into the adjoining groves to hold their consul- Mr. EDMONSTON said, he could not see tations. Reclining there in the shade, they the force of the reasoning of the gentleman would talk over the business before them; and, from Gibson. Was it not the gentleman's he was assured by the gentleman, that some of proposition, first, that every subject should be the best features of the Louisiana Constitution referred to the committee of the whole Conwere proposed and drawn up in this way; and vention, then to be returned to the Convention, that when, afterwards, they spent several months and then to be referred again to the standing in the city of New Orleans, where they were committees l attended by Stenographers, with ready nipped The PRESIDENT. The Chair understands pens, every thing was done for Buncombe, and that a subject may or may not be referred. nothing could be affected for the people, worthy The Secretary, if the gentleman desires it, will of the occasion that brought them together. read the resolution. Mr. HALL said, that he was one of the com- The resolution was accordingly read by the mittee appointed by the Chair, to aid in drafting Secretary. the rules; but he was totally unacquainted with Mr. EDMONSTON said, that if he underthe reasons which induced the appointment of stood the meaning of words, the resolution prothat committee. He confessed that he neither posed that, after the discussion of a proposition understood the resolution under which the com- in committee of the whole, it was to be returninittee was appointed, nor the explanation just ed to. the Convention, and then referred to a given. The gentleman from Hendricks (Mr. standing committee. He was unable to make Nave) seemed to think that under the resolution anything else out of it; and this he considered which he (Mr. H.) had offered, they were to would be occupying more time than there was dispense with everything like the labor of stand- any necessity for. He preferred the practice ing committees. The gentleman was wholly mis- by which the Convention might refer any part taken; such was not the object, nor the lan- of the Constitution to a standing committee, guage of the resolution. The object was that and instruct them particularly in relation to it; no subject should be referred to any standing for when a committee received instructions committee, until after it had been discussed in from the Convention it became their duty to committee of the whole. Itwas certainly con- act according to those instructions. templated by all, that there should be several This, it seemed to his mind, was the more sub-committees appointed by the Convention, correct, and it certainly was the shortest way for the purpose of taking the various matters of doing business. By the new rule proposed, into consideration, after they should have been the same ground might have to be fought over considered in committee of the whole. He was as many as two or three times upon every not wedded to any particular proposition, but proposition. this discussion had only the more convinced him Mr. PETTIT said, he did not intend to delay of the necessity of the rule he had suggested. the business of the Convention, and he would He gave an instance of its operation: the people detain them but a very few minutes. Before of the county of Gibson, whom he represented he sat down he thought he should move to lay here, had been in convention upon the subject the subject upon the table, with the view of of amendments to the Constitution, and one of taking up the resolution offered by him on their resolutions of instruction to him was, to yesterday and the amendment of the gentierecommend the proposition that the Legislature man from Monroe (Mr. Read,) with reference should prohibit lotteries in this State; now, to the transaction of business. He doubted this proposition, under the rule he had suggest- not that the design of the gentleman from ed, would be referred, first, to the committee of Gibson was a good one. If it had been his dethe whole, and after their action in reference sign that no subject should be reported upon to the principle, it would be referred next to the until after the principle had been discussed and 3a decided by the Convention, that would have the Convention progresses they would become certainly been proper and correct enough. acquainted with the habits of each other, and But the gentleman seemed to think the Con- know better the aptness and fitness of men for vention should raise a committee of the whole, places upon these committees; and they would in which every proposition should be first con- also know better how many and what kind of sidered. That would not be parliamentary. committees they would require. And for the The committee of the whole could have no purpose of taking up this resolution, to which control over the standing committees of the he had referred, he moved to lay the resoluConvention. The gentleman's doctrine was, tion of the gentleman from Gibson on the table. that no subordinate committee should report Mr. PETTIT then moved to take from the upon any subject until it should first be dis- table the resolution submitted by him on yescussed in Convention. That sub-committees terday, with the pending amendments, on the should be organized upon various subjects and subject of committees; which motion was dethen instructed by the Convention as to the cided in the affirmative. matter upon which they were to report. He Mr. READ of Monroe, observed, that in oftook for illustration, the proposition that there fering his resolution on yesterday, it was with should be no Grand Juries in the State. That no desire to be appointed chairman of the would be a subject to be reported upon by select committee proposed to be raised. On the legislative committee. He would sup- the contrary it was his intention, had his pose this subject to be appropriately referred, motion prevailed, to have had himself excusand then that the question should come up for ed from acting in that capacity. They discussion in the Convention upon a proposi- had secured their organization on yesterday, tion to instruct the committee upon that sub- and had raised a committee on rules and regject by resolution. It was not requisite that a ulations; and as the next thing to be done was subject should go to the committee of the whole to arrange some definite plan for the business and be there discussed and reported to the Con- of the convention, he had brought forward the vention and there take a tangent route and go resolution that had been so liberally commentto a sub-committee to be considered and report- ed upon. He had found upon examining the ed again to the House? The committees were proceedings of conventions held in other states, bound to act in conformity with such instruc- that a similar course of procedure had been tions; and after their reports were made to the adopted. Convention every subject would still be open The first thing that had been done in the to discussion and amendment; or they might convention held in New York, in 1821, was to be discussed and amended in committee of the appoint a committee on rules and regulationswhole, and after that go again into the Con- the committee being instructed simply to revention for final action. But he wished not to port rules and regulations for the government detain the Convention; he desired to have the of the convention. This was the mode also committees organized, and then it could be de- adopted in the convention held in the same termined whether it should require two-thirds state in 1846. Another committee was then or a majority vote to adopt a resolution of in- raised to determine upon the best plan for restruction. A majority, he supposed, should al- vising the constitution. This mode of proways carry a question. But this resolution ceeding was also adopted in the Ohio convenwas out of order at this time, entirely; he tion. It appeared to him, therefore, that the should, therefore, without intending any dis- first business after they had secured their orrespect to the gentleman introducing it, pres- ganization and appointed a committee to draft ently move to lay the resolution and amend- rules for their government, was to organize a ment on the table. He should make this mo- committee who should report some definite tion for the purpose of taking up the resolu- plan of action. In the convention of 1821, tions to which he had before referred and which this committee was regarded as the most imhad been temporarily laid on the table on yes- portant committee that could be raised, and its terday. It would be recollected that one of members'were composed of the ablest men in these propositions proposed three standing com- the convention. It should be borne in mind, mittees; it did not preclude a large number. that in adopting a plan of that kind, they were Every one knew from the structure of this gov- determining the character and extent of the ernment that it was expedient to have at least business itself, and therefore, the sooner such three standing committees-one upon the leg- committee was constituted, the more speedily islative department, one upon the executive they would be enabled to enter upon the busidepartment, and another upon the judiciary. ness they had to transact. He cared not how many more there might be. Mr. OWEN remarked, that he was in favor This course was first suggested by the gentle- of adopting the amendment. It was true, as man from Wayne, (Mr. Rariden,) and he the gentleman from Tippecanoe had said, that thought there was great propriety in adopting three committees, having supervision respecthis resolution, for, as it had been already sug- tively, of the judicial, legislative, and execugested by that gentleman, as the business of tive departments of the state government, 39 must be appointed, but it was equally certain remark, he added, had been practicably exemthat more than that number would be required. plified in this convention on yesterday and to-'They would require a committee on the Mili- day. He was considerably amazed at the obtia, one on Education, one on Currencies and servations which had been made from the path Banking, and one on Corporations other than of strict argument yesterday and to-day-they Banking. While acting upon the subject, reminded him very forcibly of an anecdote of therefore, he thought it would be better to pass a methodist preacher, a man of considerable a resolution providing for the organization of talent, who upon one occasion, while he was all the committees that were necessary. It ap- traveling in Kentucky, stopped in a certain peared to him that a committee thus empower- neighborhood and delivered a sermon to the ed to raise the standing committees could white residents. In the evening he agreed to bring in their report easily in the course of visit a meeting of negroes, where some celetwo or three days. brated negro preachers were to hold forth. While up he would suggest to his friend He went there without any intention of preachfrom Gibson, (Mr. Hall,) for whose judgment ing, but the negroes found out who he was and he had very great respect, that if any proposi- insisted that he should give them an exhortation at all similir to his were adopted, it would tion. He accordingly took the stand and occu-.exclude a very laudable custom that was pre- pied the evening in a manner very acceptable valent in all conventions, one which as far as to himself, for he considered that he had preachhe was concerned, he could not consent to ed a very excellent sermon. After he had sat yield or dispense with; he referred to the prac- down, one of the negro preachers arose and tice of voting resolutions of enquiry. It struck i made the remark "dat de white brudder had him very forcibly that there would be found to talked away a long time in a blundering manbe ten subjects that were worthy of investiga- ner, after a fashion." He would not undertake tion to one that was worthy of adoption. To to charge gentlemen with talking in a "blunderpresent resolutions of enquiry upon particular ing manner," but he would say that they had subjects was always customary. He would been talking "after a fashion.".not oppose the amendment of the gentleman The gentleman from Tippecanoe was desirfrom Gibson, if he had made provision that no ous of raising three committees; his colleague resolution should go before any of the standing from Monroe wished to raise only one. The committees, until it had first been submitted amendment offered by his colleague met with to the Convention. This would prevent any his (Mr. F's.) hearty concurrence. If, as was delegate from going to a committee with a pro- proposed, three mammoth committees were to pesition he desired to offer, so that it would be appointed there would be a general scramble come before the convention either as a resolu- for the office of Chairman of those committees, tion of enquiry or instruction. With a modi- and, he was inclined to think that there was fication to that effect, he would be content talent enough in the Convention to authorize with the gentleman's amendment. the appointment of a larger number of comMr. PETTIT said, that in order to test the mittees and consequently a more general and matter, he would move that the amendmend- equitable division of the offices. He could ment offered to his resolution be laid on the not but think that the best mode of expedittable. ing the business of the Convention, was, to The question being taken upon the motion adopt the amendment offered by his colleague. to lay the amendment on the table, it was de- The question was taken upon the amendment cided in the negative. offered by the gentleman from Dubois (Mr. EdThe question recurring upon the adoption monston) to the amendment of the gentleman of the amendment, from Monroe (Mr. Read) to fill the blank with Mr. FOSTER remarked, that a great deal the words "one from each Congressional Dishad been said that day with reference to the trict;" and it was rejected. committee of the whole; and a great deal also, The question then recurring upon the amendthat had no connection whatever with the bus- ment of the gentleman from Monroe to the iness before them. Some fifteen or twenty resolutions offered by the gentleman from Tipyears ago, said Mr. F., when Foote's celebra- pecanoe (Mr. Pettit.) ted resolution was under discussion in commit- Mr. MAGUIRE moved to amend the amendtee of the Whole in the House of Represen- ment by filling the blank with the words, "two tatives of the United States, it was remarked from each Congressional District." in the course of the debate, that they might The question was taken upon the motion of talk about anything in God's earth, above the the gentleman from Marion (Mr. Maguire) and earth, or under the earth-they might talk of it was agreed to. anything in the animal, vegetable, or mineral The question then being upon the amend-,kingdom, but that nothing should be said with ment as amended. respect to the question under consideration. It was decided in the affirmative. (Laughter.) It was altogether out of order to Mr. KILGORE offered the following resolutouch upon the subject before the House. This tion. 40 WHEREAS, In the opinion of this Convention, The PRESIDENT expressed the wish that the people of Indiana, under their present he might be relieved from the responsibility of wholesome Constitution, have obtained an making these appointments-considering that enviable position amongst the States of this their appointment was a power legitimately Union, and now enjoy a degree of prosperity vested in the doorkeeper. and general happiness, of which they may Mr. PETTIT inquired, if the Doorkeeper, well be proud: AND WHEREAS, we are ad- under the present rules of the House, did not monished by the elements by which we are possess the power of appointing his Assistants. surrounded, and which are apparent in our,The PRESIDENT replied in the affirmamidst, that there is great danger in an effort tive. to amend the organic law, of deranging our The resolution of the gentleman from Orange present wholesome system, or supplanting it (Mr. Sherrod) was then withdrawn. by one less acceptable to the people of the Mr. HALL offered the following resolutions: State; Therefore, 1st. That Judges and all other officers, shall Resolved, That we recommend to the people be elected by the people. of the State the present Constitution, as pro- 2. That corporations shall be created under posed by their Delegates in A. D. 1816, and a general law, individual liability, to the extent adopted by the people. And that this Conven- of stock, shall be imposed. The issue of bills tion now adjourn sine die. of credit for general circulation shall be proA motion being made by Mr WOLFE to hibited. No banking privileges shall be grantmti e ae y ed except to a State Bauk, and a limited numlay the resolution on the table; the ayesber of Branches, properly restricted. and noes were demanded by two members. 3. That special legislation shall be prohibThose who voted in the affirmative were I ited. No act shall embrace more than'one Messrs. Alexander, Allen, Anthony, Badger, subject-and that shall be expressed in the Barbour, Bascom, Beach, Beard, Beeson, Berry, title. Upon the final passage of every bill in Bicknell, Biddle Blythe, Bourne, Brookbank, either House, the "yeas" and "nays" shall be Butler, Carr, of Jackson, Carter, Chandler, entered upon the journals, and no act of the Chapman, Clark, of Hamilton, Clark, of Tlp- General Assembly shall be in force until afterpecanoe, Coats, Cole, Colfax, Crawford, Davis, its publication in print and distribution amongof Madison, Davis, of Parke, Davis, of Ver- the people. million, Dick, Do, D n, Dunn, of Perry, &c., 4. That the Legislature shall be prohibited' Duzan, Edmonston, Farrow, Fisher, Foley, from granting divorces, and from establishingFoster, Garvin, Gibson, Gootee, Gordon, Gra- lotteries. ham, of Miami, Gregg, Haddon, Hall, Holliday, 5. That the Legislature shall be prohibited. Hamilton, Harbolt, Hardin, Hawkins, Helm, from borrowing money upon the faith of the Helmer, Hendricks, Hitt, Hogin, Holman, Ho- State, without the consent of the people exvey, Howe, Huff, Johnson, Jones, Kent, Ken- pressed through the ballot-box. dall, of Wabash. Kendall, of Warren, Kindley, 6. That the Legislature shall meet biennially, Lockhart,Logan,Maguire,March,Mather,Mathis, but may be convened by the governor in casesMay, McCielland, McFarland, McLean, Miller, of emergency. of Clinton, Miller, of Gibson, Miller, of Fulton, 7. That all fines aforesaid, for any breach of Milligan, Milroy, Mooney, Moore, Morgan, the penal law, shall be applied to the support of Morrison, of Marion, Morrison, of Washing- common schools. ton, Mowrer, Murray, Nave, Newman, Niles, 8. That all distinction between proceedings Nofsinger, Owen, Pepper, of Ohio, Pepper of in courts of law and equity, shall be abolished; Crawford, Pettit, Read, of Clark, Read, of as also all distinction between different kinds of Monroe, Ristine, Robinson, Schoonover, Shan- action. non, Sherrod, Shoup, Sims, Smiley, Snook, 9. That the House of Representatives shall Smith, of Ripely, Smith, of Scott, Spann, consist of one hundred members, and the Senate Stevenson, Tague, Taylor, Terry, Thomas, shall be composed of fifty members: Provided, Thornton, Trembly, Vanbenthusen, Wallace, the members in either House may be diminishWheeler, Wiley, Wolfe, Work, Wunderlich, ed by Legislative enactment. Zenor, and Mr. President.-126. 10. That all elections by the General Assembly or either branch thereof, shall be determined Those who voted in the negative were by a plurality of the votes given; which resoMessrs. Borden, Bowers, Chenowith, Frisbie, lution was laid on the table by consent. Kelso, Kilgore, Prather, Steele, Tannehill The resolutions were ordered to lie on the taTodd, and Watts.-11. ble. So the resolution was laid upon the table. Mr. KELSO offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it is hereby made the duty of DOORKEEPER. the President of this Convention to appoint Mr. SHERROD moved, that the Assistant messengers to this Convention, of whom the Doorkeepers be appointed by the President. duty of one shall be to see and attend to mail 41 ing all letters, papers, documents, &c., designed Mr. PETTIT gave notice that he would on for the mails, from the.members and officers of Monday next, or on some subsequent day, inthis body, and to receive and deliver to said troduce a resolution instructing the committee members and officers, all matters sent them on the Judiciary to bring in a provision abolthrough the post office during the sitting of this ishing the Grand Jury system, and substituting Convention; which was referred, on motion of public examinations in its place. Mr. Clark, of Tippecanoe, to the commiftee on Sir. PETTIT offered the following resolurules. tion: Mr. SHOUP offered the following resolution: Resoive,, That it shall not be in order to Resolved, That the State Librarian be direct- move any resolution of instructions to any ed to procure three copies each of the follow- standing committee requiring any provisions of ing works: The Debates or Journals of the the Constitution to be brought in, without first New York, Kentucky, and Wisconsin Conven- giving at least two days previous notice of such tions; also three copies of the American Con- resolution. stitution, and when procured, to be placed and (Objection was made by several gentlemen.) kept at the Clerk's desk in this Hall, for the use M PETTIT said, he t gt tat a m of the members of this Convention; which was Mr PETTIT said, he thought that a mo adopied, ments reflection would convince gentlemen On motion of Mr. Edmonston, the Conven- of the propriety of such a resolution. If such tion adjourned until to-morrow morning 9 a rule of proceeding were adopted, when an ro'lock. important proposition was to be introduced, it would not be sprung upon them, at a time when there would be no apportunity for reflection, but gentlemen would be apprised in adTHURSDAY, Oct. 10,1850. vance, and be enabled to prepare themselves The Convention met pursuant to adjourn- for opposition to it, if it were such a proposiment. tion as they disapproved. It did not prohibit A communication was laid before the Con- resolutions of enquiry from being moved at vention by the President, announcing the ac- any time, but applied only to resolutions posiceptance by the Clergymen of the city of the tively instructing a committee to report certain invitation of the Convention to open the same provisions, altering the Constitution. He each day with prayer, and announcing the or- thought that its opperation would have a wholeder in which they would attend. some effect and that it ought to be adopted. The Chair announced the select committee Mr. EDMONSTON said, he agreed with the provided for in the resolution of Mr. Read, of gentleman from Tippecanoe, that notice ought Monroe, adopted on yesterday, on the subject of to be given of all propositions of that characcommittees to consist of the following gentle- ter though' he was of the opinion that two days men: was longer than was necessary, and with the Mr. READ, of Monroe, permission of the gentleman, he would move 1st. Congressional District-Messrs. OWEN to strike out two, and insert one. and EDMONSTON; iMr. PETTIT said, that if any considerable 2d. Congressional District-Messrs. KENT and portion of the Convention desired to change CARR, of Jackson; the time to one day, he would consent. 3d. Congressional District-Messrs: BERRY Mr. EDMONSTON suggested that his oband HOLMAN; i ject in making the motion was to save time. 4th. Congressional District-Messrs. NEWMAN Mr. DOBSON said, that this resolution seemand TREMBLY; ed to be anticipating the action of the committee 5th. Congressional District-Messrs. TANNE- which had been announced this morning, HILL and MAGUIRE; and of which the gentleman from Monroe was 6th. Congressional District-Mr. TERRY; chairman, whose special business it was to an7th. Congressional District —Messrs. COOKER- nounce the committees. LY and DAVIs, of Parke; Mr. PETTIT said, if the gentleman will al8th. Congressional District-Messrs. BRYANT low me, I will move the reference of this resoand PETTIT; lution to the committee on rules. 9th. Congressional District-Messrs. NILEs and The question being put upon this motion it MILLER, of Fulton; was agreed to. 10th. Congressional District-Messrs. KILGORE Mr. DOBSON, The gentleman has anticiand MAY. pated me. I rose for the purpose of moving its The Chair also announced the select com- reference to the committee of which the gentlemittee as provided in the resolution of Mr. Mil- man from Monroe is chairman. I now move roy, on the subject of Printing, adopted on that it be referred to that committee. yesterday: The PRESIDENT stated that the resolution Messrs. MILROY, DUNN of Perry, BIDDLE, had been referred, and that the gentleman's moLOGAN, THORNTON, LOCKHART, and RARIDEN. tion w' s not now in order. 42 Mr. PETTIT. The resolution contemplates dianship! What the number of settlements the establishment of a rule, and I think, there' made on the estates of decedents, minors, idifore, that it ought to go to the committee on ots and lunatics! And what the number of perules. titions for the sale of real estate by executors, Mr. DOBSON. I supposed, Mr. President, administrators and guardians during the same that I was in possession of the floor when the period? gentleman made his motion. That the Auditor of State be requested to Mr. PETTIT. I am certainly willing to ac- address a circular letter to each of the County commodate the gentleman by giving him an op- Auditors in this State, and request them to anportunity to introduce his motion. swer the following interrogatories, to wit: Mr. DOBSON. I move, then, sir, to refer 1st. What was the amount allowed during the resolution to the committee that I have in- the year eighteen hundred and forty-nine, in dicated. your county, to the Probate and Associate JudgThe question being put, the motion was not es, and of the County Treasury, at compensaagreed to. tion for their services! Mr. PETTIT then moved its reference to a 2d. What amount was allowed and chargable committee on rules; which motion prevailed. to the county for fees or compensation during The resolution was referred to the committee said year in said county to Grand and Traverse on rules. Jurors, Sheriff, Bailiff, and other officers, for Mr. MILLER, of Clinton, gave notice that services rendered in the courts of said county? he would, on Tuesday next, or some subsequent That on receiving the information above reday, submit a resolution instructing the corn- quested, the Secretary and Auditor of State be mittee on legislation to bring in a provison pro- requested to condense and arrange the same, hibiting the emigration of negroes into this and report it to this Convention in a conveniState. ent tabular form, adding thereto the whole Mr. COOKERLY offered the following reso- number of polls and free white male persons lution: over twenty-one years of age, in separate colResolved, That the Auditor of State be in- umns in each county, according to the returns structed to correspond with the clerks of the made by the county Auditor in June of this circuit court in each county, and ascertain, as year. far as possible, the cost of each session of the Which amendment was accepted by Mr. court in their respective counties, inclusive of Cookerly. the cost of the grand jury and associate judges, Mr. BORDEN moved to lay the resolution and report the same to this Convention as soo s amended upon the table, which was decided as practicable. in the affirmative. Mr. BORDEN moved to amend the resolution Mr. READ of Clark offered the following as follows- resolution: Strike out from the resolving clause and in- Resolved, That the Clerk of the Supreme Court sert., be requested to inform this Convention of the.sert_~~~~~, ~number of causes upon the calendar for arguThat the Secretary of State be requested to ment at each of the terms of said court during address a circular to the clerks of the severalthe year eighteen hundred and forty-nine, the circuit courts in this State, and request from number of such causes whose issue bears date each of them immediate answers to the follow- in the year eighteen hundred and forty-nine, ing questions, viz: and the number whose issue bears date in each 1st. How many terms of the Circuit Court preceding year. and Court of Common Pleas were held in your Which resolution was adopted by consent. county during the year eighteen hundred and Mr. OWEN gave notice that he would on orty-nine, and how many days did each court this day week, or some subsequent day, introsit, naming each court and term separately. duce the following resolution: 2d. How many Chancery cases and civil and Resolved, That women hereafter married in criminal causes were on the docket at each this State shall have the right to acquire and term! How many were tried or otherwise dis- possess property, to their sole use and disposal, posed of! How many were appealed from Jus- and that laws shall be passed, securing to them tices of the Peace, and how many brought up equitable conditions, all property, real and peron certiorari? sonal, whether owned by them before marriage, 3d. On Probate Courts-How many terms of or acquired afterward, by purchase, gift, devise Probate Court were held in your county in the or descent, and also providing for the registrayear eighteen hundred and forty-nine, and how tion of the wife's separate property. many days did it sit at each term? Mr. BORDEN offered the following reso4th. What was the number of causes on the lution: Probate Docket during the year, and what the Resolved, That the committee on the plan total number of Probate wills, and grants of of business and standing committees be inletters testamentary, administrative, and guar- structed to enquire into the expediency of re 43 porting the following plan for organizing the tion to the committee "On the plan of busistanding committees of this Convention, viz.: ness and the member and functions of the dif1st. The rights and privileges of the citizens ferent committees." Which was decided in and inhabitants of this State. the affirmative. 2d. The appointment, election, tenure of Mr. MILLER of Fulton moved a reconsidoffice, and compensation of the members of the eration of the vote just taken, which was deGeneral Assembly. cided in the affirmative. 3d. The powers and duties of the General The vote being reconsidered, Assembly, except as to the public debt, and Mr. HARDEN moved to lay the resolution matters otherwise referred. on the table-which was decided in the neg4th. The election, tenure of office, compensa- ative. tion, power and duties of the Governor and So the resolution was not laid on the table. Lieutenant Governor. Mr. BORDEN renewed his motion, to refer 5th. The election and appointment of offi- the resolution to the committee "On the plan cers of State, other than Legislative and Judi- of business and the number and functions of cial, their powers, duties, and compensation. the diffierent committees," which motion was 6th. The election and appointment of all agreed to; and the resolution so referred. county officers, tenure of office, and compensa- Mr. EDMONSTON, gave notice that he tion. would, on Monday next, or some subsequent 7th. The Judicial Departments of Govern- day, introduce a resolution instructing the comment, the election of Judicial officers, their ten- mittee on legislation to prepare a provision in ure of office, and compensation. the Constitution, providing for biennial ses8th. The power of impeachment, and the sions of the Legislature instead of annual sesqualifications to vote and hold office. sions. 9th. The elective franchise, and the qualifi- i Mr. KENT gave notice, that on Tuesday cations to vote and hold office. next, he would introduce a resolutioni nstructing 10th. The militia and military officers. the committee on education to insert a provis11th. The future amendments and revision ion in the Constitution at the expiration of of the Constitution. the charter of the State Bank of Indiana, 12th. The State University, county semina- that the fund set apart in the one hundred and, ries, education, common schools, and their ap- fourteenth section of said charter, as a permapropriate funds. nent fund to be appropriated to the cause of 13th. The State Bank, currency, and Bank- common school education, shall be divided in ing. the proportion of the taxable polls among the 14th. On such parts of the present Consti-'counties of the state. tution as are not otherwise referred. Mr. HARDIN offered the following resolu15th. On Corporations other than Banking. tion: 16th. On canals and internal improve- Resolved, That when the Convention adjourns ments, public revenue and property, public this morning, it will adjourn until two o'clock debt, and the powers and duties of the Legisla- i to-morrow. ture in reference thereto, and the restriction Mr. MAY moved to amend the resolution by proper to be imposed on the Legislature in ma- striking out " two o'clock," and insert "nine king loans of money on the credit of the o'clock, A. M.;" which was decided in the negState. ative. 17th. On the organization of county roads; The question recurring upon the original resothe granting of powers of local legislation to lution, them, and the adoption of a uniform mode of It was decided in the affirmative. doing county and township business. Mr. TAGUE gave notice, that he would on 18th. On reducing to a code, such parts of Monday introduce a resolution, requiring a prothe laws of this State as may be found prac- vision to be inserted in the Constitution, providticable and expedient, and also on reforming ing for triennial sessions of the Legislature, the rules and practice of the courts of the instead of annual, as now provided for. State. Mr. MORRISON of Marion gave notice, 19th. On the homestead exemption, and on that on Monday next, or at some convenient day the accumulation, creation, and division of es- thereafter, he would introduce a resolution entate in land. quiring into the necessity of so amending the That each committee appointed under the Constitution of this State, so as to allow an foregoing resolution shall consist of - mem- additional amount of banking capital, and probers, except the committee on the judiciary, viding that such a system of banking may be which shall consist of - members. created as will allow a healthy competition in Mr. FOSTER moved to lay the resolution banking, establish a safe, direct, and judicious ion the table, which was decided in the nega- general banking law, under which all banking tive. operations shall hereafter be managed in the Mr. BORDEN, moved to refer the resolu- State. 44 Mr. CLARK of Tippecanoe enquired, if all posed to a proposition, that they should be apthese notices were to be placed upon the journ- prised before hand of the intention to introduce al. It appeared to him that there was no it. It was objected that it would have the efauthority to place them there, and the journal fect of increasing the size of the journal. He ought not unnecessarily to be swelled with the did not consider that a sufficient objection. The notices; they ought to be given verbally. people of Indiana were not averse to having The PRESIDENT remarked, that the rules the journal extened so as to include all the neof the House did not require a notice to be giv- cessary proceedings of the Convention. There en of the introduction of any proposition except would be no objection to it on their part, and it a motion to change the rules. The Chair would, was essential that it should be full and perfect, as a matter of course, direct the Secretary to in order that each day's proceedings might be conform to whatever course the Convention traced with certainty. might direct. Mr. SMITH of Ripley was opposed to plaMr. CLARK said, he had made the suggestion cing these notices on the journal. He thought in order to relieve the Secretary from the labor there was no necessity for it. When a propoof spreading all these notices upon the journal. sition was introduced, if objected to, it must lie Mr. PETTIT said, he would suggest to his over one day, and gentlemen would then have colleague the difficulty which would present an opportunity of examining it. itself. His purpose of saving the labor of the Mr. PETTIT suggested, that the debate was Secretary would not be accomplished by giving out of order, inasmuch as the subject had been notices verbally; in fact, his labor would be in- referred to a committee. creased, because the notices must necessrrily'be The PRESIDENT remarked, that the discusrecorded upon the journal for the information of sion was entirely out of order, but it had been members, that they might not be taken by sur- tolerated by the Chair, in order that the Conprise; and if given verbally, the Clerk would have vention might come to some conclusion in reto write them out instead of having, as in other gard to the question. The Chair understood cases, to incorporate the written in the journal. that the Convention had decided this morning It was necessary that the notices appear upon the that these notices might be given. journal, because a question might arise upon the Mr. OWEN expressed the hope, that until introduction of a proposition, as to whether it rules were established for the Convention, no corresponded with the notice that had been objection would be made to the giving of no — given. tices. The PRESIDENT remarked, that in the Mr. CLARK withdrew his objection. absence of any instruction by the Convention, Mr. FOSTER gave notice, that on Wednesday it had been considered the duty of the Secreta- next, or some subsequent day, he would introduce ry to enter the notices upon the journal, a resolution to amend our present State ConstiMr. MORRISON of Marion said, he thought tution so that fines heretofore appropriated for it a wrong course of proceeding, to record upon the use of county seminaries, should be approthe journal notices of propositions that were priated for the use of common schools in the intended to be introduced, for by so doing, they different townships where such fines areassessed were duplicating every proposition. and collected. Mr. CLARK of Tippecanoe said, that he, Mr. KELSO offered the following refolufor one, objected to the placing upon the journal tion: these notices. It was unauthorized by the rules. Rrsolved, That a select committee, to consist He objected upon their being recognized as a of seven members, be appointed by the President part of their proceedings. If such a rule of to enquire into the expediency of abolishing proceeding should be reported by either com- capital punishment by Constitutional provision; mittee on rules, he would vote against it for the and that they report the result of their deliberareason stated by the gentleman from Marion, tions to this Convention. that such a course of practice would double the Mr. COOKERLY moved to lay the resolusize of the journal. To obviate the difficulty tion on the table; which was decided in the suggested by the gentleman from Tippecanoe, affirmative. that the Convention might be taken by surprise, Mr. MOORE offered the following resothere was a resolution which authorized them at lution: any time to lay the proposition upon the table. 1st. Resolved, That there shall be a provision. He thought, therefore, there was no danger of in the Constitution prohibiting free blacks from. being embarrassed by the sudden introduction emigrating into this State. of a proposition. 2. That the pay of the members of the LegMr. TAYLOR said, that he differed with the islature be fixed at two dollars per diem for gentleman last up. He thought that the ob- the first six weeks, and one dollar per diem for servance of the practice of giving notice of the any length of time thereafter. introduction of propositions was very essential 3. That no officer shall be elected or appointin the progress of their proceedings. It was ed for a longer time than four years. certainly due to those members who were op- 4. That clerks, auditors, treasurers, and sher — 45 iffs, shall be ineligible to more than two terms Mr. EDMONSTON asked for a division of in succession. the question. 5. That the technicalities and special pleading The question being taken first on laying the in our courts of justice be abolished. resolution on the table, it was decided in the af6. That the funds arising from the sale of all firmative. our public works, water rents, &c., be sacredly The question was then taken on ordering the applied to the liquidation of the State debt. resolution to be printed, and it was not agreed 7. That the grand jury system be abolished. to. 8. That all elections shall be by viva voce. Mr. BORDEN, from the committee on rules, 9. That our general elections be held on the submitted the following report: first Monday in October. "The committee to which was referred the 10. That no man shall hold more than one subject of reporting rules and regulations to govoffice of trust and profit at the same time; which ern the proceedings of this Convention during resolution was laid on the table by consent. its session, beg leave to submit the following On motion of Mr. ROBINSON, leave of ab- report, and to respectfully recommend it for sence was granted to Mr. Kilgore for ten days. adoption: On motion of Mr. WOLFE, the Convention [The report was read by the Secretary.] adjourned until to-morrow at 2 o'clock, P. M. Mr. BORDEN from the same committee asked leave to make another report. The PRESIDENT remarked, that if it did not form part of the first report, it would not FRIDAY, OCTOBER 11, 1850. now be in order. The question would be,first, on adopting the AFTERNOON SESSION. rules which had been reported from the comThe Convention met pursuant to adjournment, mittee. and was opened with prayer by the Rev Mr. Mr. KELSO said, he did not wish to enter upCOOPER. on the consideration of the rules now, for he apThe journal of the preceding day was then prehended they would give rise to some debate, read. and for the purpose of giving the other commitMr. PEPPER of Ohio offered the following tees an opportunit toreport, he would move -resolution: j that this report be laid upon the table for the Resolved, That the committee on - be Mr. PETTIT said, he hoped the gentleman instructed to report a section requiring that each would withdraw that motion for a moment that -General Assembly shall provide for all the ap- he might make a suggestion. propriations necessary for the ordinary contin- Mr. KELSO withdrew the motion. gent expenses of the Government until the next Mr. PETTIT said, that before acting upon the regular session, the aggregate amount of which rules, he thought they ought to be printed, but -shall not exceed the amount of revenue author- first of all he would state that there was one of ized by law to be raised in such time: Provided, the them that he desired to amend. He meant the State may, to meet casual deficits in the reve- rule which authorized the yeas and nays to be nues, contract debts, never to exceed fifty thou- taken upon the demand of any ten members. sand dollars, and the moneys thus borrowed, shall He thought that number was too small to be be applied to the purpose for which they were permitted to demand the yeas and nays in a obtained and to no other purpose, and to no oth- deliberative body, consisting of 150 members. er debt except for the purpose of repelling in- He thought that it ought not to be in the power vasion, suppressing insurrection, or defending of so small a number to vex and harrass a body the State in war, shall be contracted unless the of that size, with repeated calls for the yeas and law authorizing the same shall, at a general nays. It would be much better to say that it election, have been submitted to the people, and should require one fifth of the members preshave received a majority of all the votes cast ent to demand the yeas and nays. He perceivfor members of the General Assembly at such ed that the committee had changed the rule of election. The General Assembly shall provide the House in this respect, and made it to require for the publication of said law, for three months, ten to demand the yeas and nays instead of two, at least, before the vote of the people shallb but ten he thought was not enough. He would taken upon the same, and provision shall be move to strike out "ten," and insert "one-fifth of made at the time for the payment of interest the members present." annually as it shall accrue by a tax levied for [Cries of "No," "No," "No."] the purpose; and the law levying the tax shall Mr. KELSO said, that about one-third of;be submitted to the people, with the law author- these rules, on an average, deserved the name izing the debt to be contracted. of gag laws. About one third of all the propoThe resolution having been read, sitions that were to be permitted by them to Mr. PEPPER moved that it be laid upon the come before the Convention at all, were to be table and printed. decided without debate. To that he did not 46 so much object, but he did claim the privilege, The question was then taken on the motion if his lips were to be sealed, at least, to record to lay the report on the table, and upon a divishis vote. He desired that one of the two priv- ion-ayes 61, noes 63-it was not agreed to. ileges should be allowed. Either that the old So the report was not laid upon the table. rule that had stood ever since the birth of the The question then being upon concurring in State, giving to two members the power to call the report, the yeas and nays should stand, or the privilege Mr. BORDEN said, he supposed there was of debating all propositions that might come be- no desire on the part of the Convention to hasten fbre the Convention, should be allowed. He the decision until a full opportunity for examihoped that the motion of the gentleman would nation had been afforded, and it appeared to him, not prevail. therefore, that it ought to be permitted to lie Mr. PETTIT said, that, to accommodate the over until to-morrow. He hoped that by unanigentleman, he would withdraw his motion and mous consent it would be permitted to lie over. let the question be taken on the motion to The PRESIDENT remarked to the gentleprint. man, that he might accomplish his object by Mr. KELSO then renewed his motion, that moving to postpone the further consideration of the rules be laid upon the table and ordered to the resolution. be printed. Mr. BORDEN then moved to postpone its Mr. CHAPMAN asked for a division of the further consideration until 10 o'clock on Monquestion. day. The question was, accordingly, first taken on The motion was agreed to. the motion to lay on the table, and it was agreed Mr. BORDEN, from the committee on rules,. to. made the following report: The question on the motion to print (one Mr. PRESIDENT: The committee, to which hundred and fifty copies) was also agreed to. was referred the subject of reporting rules, &c., Mr. MILROY, from the committee appointed for the regulation of the proceedings of this to investigate the legality of the claim of the Convention, and to whom was also referred a present State Printer to do the printing of this resolution proposing "that it shall not be in orConvention, made the following report: der to move any resolution of instruction to any "The undersigned, members of the commit- standing committee, requiring any provision of tee appointed under the following resolution, the Constitution to be brought in without first vz.:- giving at least two days previous notice'Resolved, That there be a committee of sev- of such resolution," have had the same under en appointed, whose duty it shall be to enquire consideration, and have directed me to report into and report to this Convention, upon the le- rules ths day reported to the gality of the claim of the present State Prin- Convention, in lieu of said resolution, and reter to do the printing for this Convention, &c.,' spectfuly ask to be discharged from the further Beg leave to report that they have had the i subject. matter referred to them, under their considera- The report was concurred in, and the committion, and are unanimously of opinion that the tee discharged from the further consideration of State Printer is not ex officio the Printer to this the subject. Convention, and has no legal claim by virtue of Mr. BORDEN, from the same committee, subhis office to do the printing for this Convention. mitted the following report: Moi todoe p g Mr. PRESIDENT: The committee on rules, PH. LTHOYTON, &c., to whom was referred a resolution of this H. P. THORNTON, Convention, requiring them to enquire into the JOHN P. DUNN, HORACE P. BIDLE, propriety of appointing messengers whose duty EZEKIEL D. LOGAN, it shall be to attend to the mailing of all letters, JAMES LOCKHART, papers, &c., of the members and officers of this Committee." body, and to receive and deliver to said members and officers, all matters sent them through The report having been read, the Post Office, would respectfully report, that Mr. NAVE said, as it involved a legal ques- your committee have enquired of the Doorkeeption, in order that members might have an op- er of this Convention and from him ascertained portunity of examining it, he moved that it be that he has already appointed eight persons to, laid on the table for the present. assist him; your committee have not been able Mr. KELSO desired permission to enquire of to find any authority vested in the Doorkeeper the chairman of the committee whether any to make such appointments; should this numdocuments connected with the contract had ber be retained, we are unable to see the nebeen laid before the committee? If so, he desired cessity for the appointment of messengers, and that copies should be furnished to the Conven- are of the opinion that the number appointed is. tion, that they might be examined. already too large. Mr. MILROY replied that there had been He would respectfully suggest to the Con — some documents before the committee., vention to take immediate measures to deter 47 mine the number of assistants the Doorkeeper man, Niles, Nofsinger, Owen, Pepper of Crawshall have, and who shall make the appoint- ford, Read of Clark, Read of Monroe, Robinments. son, Shannon, Sherrod, Shoup, Sims, Smiley, We respectfully recommend the adoption of Spann, Steele, Stevenson, Tague, Taylor, Terry, the following resolution, and ask to be dis- Thomas, Todd, Trembly, Vanbenthusen, Walcharged from the further consideration of the pole, Wheeler, Wolf, Work, Wunderlich, Yosubject: cum, and Mr. President-yeas 84. Resolved, That the Doorkeeper be authorized NAYs.-Alexander, Bascom, Borden, Bowers, to employ one assistant doorkeeper, one mes- Butler, Carter, Chapman, Chenowith, Davis of senger, one attendant on the committee rooms, Madison, Davis of Vermillion, Dunn of Perry, and one person to make fires in the Hall. &c., Duzan, Edmonston, Gootee, Hamilton, The question being upon the adoption of the Hardin, Hawkins, Holman, Johnson, Kelso, resolution. Kindley, Maguire, May, McClelland, McLean, Mr. BASCOM moved to lay it upon the table, Miller of Clinton, Miller of Fulton, Milligan, The motion was not agreed to. Mooney, Morrison of Marion, Nave, Pepper of The question recurring upon the adoption of Ohio, Pettit, Prather, Ristine, Ritchey, Schoonthe resolution, over, Snook, Smith of Ripley, Smith of Scott, Mr. KELSO opposed its adoption. There Thornton, Wallace, Watts, Wiley, and Zenorwas an absolute necessity, he said, for the ser- nays 47. vices of allthese messengers. They could not be So the resolution was adopted. dispensed with without serious inconvenience. ORDER OF BUSINESS. As to the assertion of the committee that no power was vested in the Doorkeeper to make Mr READ, of Monroe, chairman of the cornthe appointments, he would ask to whom the mittee on standing committees, made the followpower did belong, if not to him. ing report: Mr. BORDEN observed, that it was proper a "The committee appointed to report a plan for that he should state that he did not himself en- the business of this Convention, and to desigtirely concur in the resolution, but that he had nate the number and functions of the different submitted it in obedience to the instructions of a standing committees, beg leave to make the folmajority of the committee. He would state, lowing report: however, that he was satisfied that too many That the standing committees shall be the officers were employed. following, to whom shall be referred all such Mr. KELSO moved that the resolution be matters touching the Constitution as properly laid upon the table. belong to each, and that they report, without [Cries of'-No!" "No!"] 1 argument, the provisions, alterations, or amendMr. KELSO withdrew the motion. ments required." Mr. FOSTER said, he was decidedly of the [The list of committees was here read by the impression that there were too many persons Secretary.] employed. He rose however, he said, for the Mr. READ of Monroe moved, that the repurpose of moving to amend the resolution by port be laid upon the table and printed. adding two additional messengers. It was suggested by several members that After some conversational debate the ques- there should be three hundred copies printed. tion was taken on the amendment of the gen- r BORDEN said, that in view of the fact tleman from Monroe, and it was not agreed to.t The question recurred on the adoption of the that the report might be amended when it should esoluetion reported by the committee. come to be considered, he thought a hundred resolution reported by the committee. and fifty copies would be enough. Some further conversation ensued, and the be en. yeas and nays being demanded, were taken with Mr. KELSO desired that the motion to lay the following result, yeas 84 nays 47, as fol- on the table might be withdrawn; and the molows: tion being withdrawn accordingly, he said: If AYES.-Allen, Anthony, Badger, Balingall, the Convention were satisfied with the report, Beach, Beard, Beeson, Berry, Bicknell, Biddle, as he was himself, perfectly, it would be well Blythe, Bracken, Brookbank, Bryant, Carr of enough to print the three hundred copies proJackson, Chandler, Clark of Hamilton, Clark posed, but if a majority should demand alteraof Tippecanoe, Coats, Cole, Colfax, Crawford tions and amendments, then the printing of any Davis of Parke, Dick, Dobson, Farrow, Fisher, number would be an entire loss. He did not Foley, Foster, Frisbie, Garvin, Gibson, Gordon, i know but it would be proper at this time to put Graham of Miami, Graham of Warrick, Gregg, the question upon the adoption of the report. Haddon, Hall, Holliday,Harbolt, Helm, Helmer, Mr. COOKERLY. It seemed, to his mind, Hendricks, Hiatt, Hogin, Hovey, Howe, Huff, that the Convention ought to adopt or reject Kent, Kendall of Wabash, Kendall of Warren, the report at once. It seemed to him to be high Logan, March, Mather, Mathis, McFarland, time for the Convention to be getting to work. Miller of Gibson, Milroy, Moore, Morgan, Mor- They had been sent here to work, and he was rison of Washington, Mowrer, Murray, New- weary of idleness. 48 Mr. WOLFE. He also hoped the Conven- from the publishers of the Indiana State Jourtion would either adopt or reject the report now. nal, the Indiana State Sentinel, the Indiana He was himself agreed to it in every particular, Statesman, the Indiana Valksblatt, and the Loexcept as to the number of members of the corn- comotive, such numbers of each as are named mittee on phraseology, which was to be com- in the foregoing estimate, and that the Convenposed of the chairmen of all the other commit- tion hereby authorize the payment of the posttees. He thought the number too great entire- age on such of the above named papers as may ly, but would give way to the opinion of others. be sent by mail, and upon all public documents Mr. OWEN said, he thought the printing ordered to be printed by this body and mailed at could surely be obtained by to-morrow morning;the Indianapolis post office. and, as there were some gentlemen who had The PRESIDENT stated the question to be doubts about the propriety of adopting the re- upon the adoption of the resolution, and the veas port now-and as it was, in fact, a very import- and nays were demanded thereupon. ant one, for upon it, to a considerable extent, Mr. WATTS said, he did not like to oppose depended the after-business of the Convention the resolution, yet he could not vote for it. He -he thought it prudent to postpone final action. had some experience in this newspaper business. Assured, as he was, that the printing could be He had seen wagon loads of packages which had had in the morning, it seemed to him that the been ordered in this way, in the cellar of the Post Convention would be ill-advised if they were to Office in this city. He had passed coffee sacks increase the number of copies. He thought full of them in the mud-holes on the Michigan that the report which proposed to carve out the road, which the stage could not carry away. business of the Convention, should be printed But he had another objection: If these papers and examined with the utmost care. He found were taken and distributed at the expense of the that, in New York, they did not get through State, a paperwould be sent to one man to-day, with this report until they had been in session containing a detached portion of the business of some ten days; and than it was some fifteen this body-say the business of one day-and he days afterwards before they proceeded to con- would not get another paper, perhaps, during the sider it. He believed that he should be dispos- session of the Convention, and of course by this ed to favor this report, with one single amend- means alone he could know nothing about the ment, and that was: he thought he should pro- proceedings here. Whereas, if the papers were pose to transfer to a special committee the con- given to him during the session, at the close he sideration of the matter of apportionment of rep- would know something about what had been resentation. He considered this question of done; but in the way they were proposing: to apportionment to be one of the most important send to one man to-day and another to-morrow, in the government. But if the printing could and perhaps no one getting more than two or be had to-morrow morning he would rather wait. three papers during the session, the knowledge He had great confidence in the select commit- of their proceedings would amount to absolutely tee; but the report had been drawn up in a nothing. It arrangements could be made to hurry. It was a very important report-cer- send correct accounts of their proceedings to the tainly the most important report which had various county papers, he thought that might be been made to the Convention; therefore, every a better plan. At ail events he felt bound to go man, as he thought, should carefully read and against this proposition; and he thought it due consider it before adopting or deciding upon it. to himself to say thus much. After getting through with the consideration of Mr. KELSO said, he was desirous that we the report, then he would be in favor of print- should get as much information as possible be ing more, but now he thought a hundred and fore the people; the only question was whether fifty copies would suffice. we could get the same amount of valuable inforMr. READ of Monroe then renewed his mation before the people on any cheaper plan ilotion, which was agreed to, and accordingly thanthe one proposed. He didnotlike the propit was osition so far as it respected those publishers Ordered, That the report lie on the table, and who proposed to furnish only a part of the prothat one hundred and fifty copies be printed for ceedings. It occurred to his mind that their pathe use of members. pers would be almost entirely useless upon our hands; but there were three papers proposing PUBLICATION OF THE PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES. only to publish the debates as prepared by their Mr. MORRISON of Marion, from the select own reporters. He would take only those pacommittee to which had been referred the sub- pers which published the debates asprepared by ject of furnishing newspapers containing the the authorized reporters. proceedings and debates of the Convention, Mr. SHERROD was opposed to the adoption made the following report: of the resolution as reported. He admitted that The report was here read by the Secretary. the people ought to be furnished with the proIt concluded with recommending the adoption ceedings of the body, but he was opposed to of the following resolution: the plan here proposed. He considered it antiResolved, That the principal Secretary order, Democratic; for how could all of their constitu 49 ents be furnished with these papers? In the State. But need that gentleman be told, that, district which he had the honor to represent without the resolution, these country papers there were three thousand voters. How many could never get those reports? But when pubof these wouldhe be able to furnish? Last win- lished in the city papers here, the full reports ter he took three papers and distributed them as would go forth, and copies would be multiplied well as he could among his constituents, and in every part of the State, so that the people when he returned home they complained that could not but be \aell informed of all that was they had scarcely received any papers at all.- done. Their acts Should not be kept from the Besides this, he contended, that if there ever people. They should be spread broad-cast over was a deliberative body that should practice the land, that, every man might see and judge economy, it was this body. They should set for himself, and judge understandingly. How an example that would last for years to come. could he act understandingly unless the light of He thought the people would be better satisfied knowledge be placed before himl But the wonwith the publication of these reports in the va- der with him was, how any man here could be rious county papers throughout the State. so parsimonious as to refuse four thousand dolMr. MURRAY said, he considered that there lars for that light. He could not but think that had been no period since the adoption of the gentlemen would be standing very much in their present Constitution, in which the dissemination own light if they refused to support this resoof information with respect to the affairs of the lution. State was more imperiously demanded. This Mr. SHERROD said, he had no wish to information should be sent forth, in order that continue the debate, but desired merely to reply they might have the will of the people express- to a reference which had been made to him. ed with regard to their proceedings, in time to He had remarked that, in his opinion, it direct their action. For when the Constitution would be anti-democratic to support the report should have been perfected, then there would of this committee, and he would still contend be but one issue before the people. The work that it was anti-democratic to tax the many for would then have to be either adopted or rejected. the benefit of the few. Errors could not be corrected then. But now, Mr. EDMONSTON said, he was in favor of whilst the body were in session, if their constit- taking the papers, but he thought the number uents should be dissatisfied with their action, proposed might be reduced to three for the daily they would be able to hear from them, and be papers. That would be eighteen papers weekly corrected by them. For this reason, he thought for each member from each of the daily publishit altogether expedient that they should send ing establishments, and he thought that number abroad their daily proceedings as early as pos- would be sufficient. With respect to the distrisible. bution of his share, instead of sending to lawMr. BASCOM said, that the committee was yers, and doctors, and leading politicians, as had not a little astonished when they came to look been intimated, he intended to send his papers at the cost of publishing the reports in these to the hard-fisted yeomanry of the country. He papers. They had first made their calculation would move to strike out "five," wherever to take ten papers of each publisher for each it occcurred in relation to the Journal, Senmember; but the cost appeared so great that tinel, and Statesman, and insert "three" in lieu they were constrained to cut it down to the low- thereof. est estimate possible. He was in favor of adopt- Mr. READ of Clark said, he was in favor of ing the resolution, for the reason that the peo- the amendment. He should have voted, howple wanted information of our doings; they ever, for the adoption of the resolution without wanted knowledge upon every subject likely to the amendment, but he would have done so with be considered here. If it was anti-Democratic some objections relative to the amount. Like to diffuse knowledge among the people, he would the gentleman from Orange, he had concluded renounce the name; if such a thing was going never to vote for taking the papers in this way, to break down the party, he would not belong as long as the arrangement of which he cornto it. But he looked at the matter in a different plained should be continued in the Post Office light. If the people had made any demands of Department. But since that difficulty was rehim he was bound to comply; and that he was moved he was ready to support the proposition. doing when he supported the report of the com- Mr. SHOUP thought itbut rightthat all the pamittee. The people wanted not only the re- pers in the State should be allowed the same suits of the deliberations here, but they wanted price that was allowed the city papers here for the whys and the wherefores. And if gentle- publishing the proceedings of the Convention. men were diligent in distributing the papers The city publishers had already pledged themproposed to be taken, by the time they were selves in their prospectus that they would pubthrough, he had no doubt that the people would lish these proceedings-they were obligated to be pretty well informed of our doings. The do so. Where, then, was the propriety of comgentleman from Orange, (Mr. Sherrod,) gave ing in and paying for that service. He would his preference to the plan of publishing our re- move the following amendment to the amendports in the papers generally throughout the ment offered by the gentleman from Dubois 4 50 (Mr. Edmonston): to insert in the proper place ture of money would go. If the compensation that all the local press within the State be al- proposed in this amendment of the gentleman lowed the same rates for publishing the pro- from Dubois (Mr. Edmonston) would be sufceedings of the Convention. ficient to remunerate these editors, he would go Mr. MORRISON of Marion said, that, as with him, for it did not curtail the item of cornchairman of the committee raised under the position. He was for acting reasonably in reoriginal resolution, perhaps he might, from his gard to this matter. intimacy with the question, be able,to give some Let us, said he, calmly and coolly consider information which would be of service to gen- whether it would be doing well by the people tlemen in determining their votes. He would not to furnish them with the proceedings, or say that he was neither anxious nor interested whether it would not be acting the part of demabout the matter, any more than as he consid- agogueism. Would gentlemen say to the peoered it a public duty to give to the people the ple-"We were so careful of your interest that needed information. If the correspondence sent we were constrained to vote against sendup with the report had been read, the rea- ing you these papers 3" He would like to meet sons would have been apparent why the Con- such economists before their constituents in vention should give a considerable amount of any part of the State, for he believed the peomoney to enable these publishers to print the re- ple of Indiana to be a reading and intelligent port of the proceedings of this body. These people. publishers proposed to give detailed reports, lit- The committee had submitted the project which erallv, of what transpired in this body, on the they thought to be the most feasible. They succeeding day. To do this they would have to considered neither the amount of papers too fill seven columns of print, of three thousand large, nor the price too high. It was precisely ems each, in their several papers daily. This such a course as the people of Ohio and Kenamount of labor it was impossible for any set tucky had pursued, only they carried it to a of printers to perform without additional con much greater extent; and was it to be conceded pensation or subscription. But if the publish- that our people were less liberal or less intelliersdidnot proceedto make these detailed reports, gent than the people of Ohio or Kentucky' he would ask how were the country papers to get Mr. HOVEY said, he was opposed to the hold of correct copies of their doings here resolution and amendment. He represented a Not a single speech, perhaps, would appear in county containing about 2,300 voters, and under their columns. They would barely give such the resolution before the Convention, the papers an amount of proceedings as would show that that would be given to him for distribution, the members were here engaged in the perform- would scarcely furnish one apiece for his conance of their duty. That being the case, the stituents. Such, he thought, would be but poor sources of information to the local press would light to guide them in forming their opinions in be very limited. regard to the instrument the Convention might Hence, continued Mr. M., when we pay the frame. Such broken parts of their discussions city publishers for this amount of printing, we would have a tendency to mislead rather than multiply one hundred fold the amount of re- enlighten. He was opposed to the amendment ports of our proceedings here, to be sent to the and resolution for other reasons. A Stenograpapersthroughoutthe State. Ithadbeensaidthat pher to the Convention had been appointed, itwas anti-democratic to take the people's money whose duty it was to report their debates in full, to do the people's work. Why no Democrat or and those debates, he understood, were to be Whig in the State would hesitate to do so when published for distribution among the people. it was demanded by the people. The commit- The opinions of members, thus circulated, would tee had not blinked the argument. They be far preferable to the fragments that might thought the enterprize was worth the expense. reach their constituents through the medium of For, what substitute would gentlemen furnish the newspaper press. The gentleman from for the plan of the committeel Would they Marion (Mr. Morrison) had affirmed that opset in, all of them, and write their own reports position to the resolution and amendment in the shape of letters, and send them all over might do well enough for the demagogue the State 1 Or would they ask the local editors upon the stump, but that it was out of place to send up reporters to do this work 3 If such here. With due deference to the opinion counsel was followed, upon returning home, of that gentleman, he thought it savored more gentlemen would meet their constituents asking of demagogueism to pay $4,300 of the public them-"what have you been doing 1" and they money for the paper and postage mentioned in would have to reply, each for himself-"Why, the report, to be used by delegates for the purdon't you know t then I will tell you." And pose of courting political favor at home. If the they would find it a story that would take resolution should be adopted, the wind-work of up a good deal of time. The common cry this Convention, including the Stenographer, would be-"They, steyed there till they got all stationery, publishing debates, &c., &c., will the pay they could, and then came home with- cost nearly $20,000. He should vote against out doing anything." He wasforremovingthe any proposition of a character similar to that cause for such a cry, as far as this small expendi- now before the Convention. 51 Mr. BORDEN said, it struck him that there The CHAIR appointed the following gentlewas a question behind this subject of publishing, men as members of the committee: which ought to be considered and decided first; Messrs. Gregg, Bright, Wheeler, Kelso, and and that was the subject of reporting. For if Bourne. the Convention did not retain the reporters, of Mr. PEPPER of Crawford submitted the folcourse they need have nothing to do with print- lowing resolution: ing the debates. If he understood this matter Resolved, That this- Convention adjourn sine aright, it was arranged in the Ohio Convention die on the 7th day of November next. -so that the types used for printing the proceed- Mr CARR of Jackson moved to lay the resings and debates in the newspapers, were trans- o on oe t ferred from the columns of the newspaper, to olutlon othe tablethe page of the library edition of the proceed- The motion was agreed to. the page of the library edition of the proceed- Mr. SIMS submitted the following resolution. i3gs, which very materially lessened the expense Mr SIS submtted the following resoltion. of the volume. But urging, again, that in his Resolved, That the committee on Legislation opinion the question of reporting should be de- be instructed to enquire into the expediency of cided first; he moved that the Convention do so amending the Constitution that one branch now adjourn. of the Legislature shall consist of only seventy The motion was not agreed to. members, and the other branch, to-wit: the So the Convention refused to adjourn. Senate, shall consist of only thirty members. Mr. KELSO moved to lay the report, resolu- Mr. MILLER of Gibson moved to lay the tion, and pending amendments on the table. resolution of the gentleman from Clinton (Mr. The motion was agreed to. Sims) on the table. Mr. BORDEN moved an adjournment, The motion was agreed to. Which motion was decided in the negative. On motion of Mr. BORDEN the Convention Mr. MORRISON of Marion, from the select adjourned until to-morning, 9 o'clock. -committee appointed to enquire into the practicability of providing a more comfortable and convenient house for the use of the Convention made the following report. SATURDAY, OCTOBER 12, 18 [The report and accompanying correspond- The Convention met, pursuant to adjournence was then read by the Secretary.] ment, and was opened with prayer by the Rev. Mr. KELSO moved to lay the report and C. L. Mills. communications on the table. The journal of the preceding day having been The motion was agreed to. read, Mr. GREGG submitted the following reso- Mr. STEELE submitted the following resolution: lution: Resolved, That a committee of five be ap- Resolved, That a provision be incorporated in pointed to ascertain whether a room can be ob- the Constitution of the State of Indiana, to retained in the city of Madison, of sufficient strict the Indiana Legislature from granting a capacity to accommodate the sessions of the license to vend spiritous liquors in the State. Convention-and if so, upon what terms-to- And be it further resolved, That a provision be gether with such other information on the sub- incorporated in the Constitution of the State of ject as may be of interest to this body. And Indiana, to instruct our representatives to prothat said committee report all the facts in rela- vide, by law, the right of petition to all white tion thereto, as early as practicable. females, of the age of eighteen and upwards, to Mr. PETTIT offered the following amend- tend to protect their best interests, and that of.ment: their posterity. Insert after the word "Madison," as follows: Mr. EDMONSTON moved to lay the resolu"or any other town in the State." tion on the table. The motion was agreed to. The question was then taken upon the amend- Mr. S. JONES, a delegate from the county ment offered by the gentleman from Tippeca- of Bartholomew, appeared in the Convention, noe, (Mr. Pettit). produced his credentials, and was sworn accordAnd it was rejected. ing to law, by the Hon. HORACE P. BIDDLE, Mr. BORDEN moved an adjournment. one of the Circuit Judges of the State of IndiWhich motion was decided in the negative. ana, and took his seat. Mr. KENT offered the following amendment. Mr. BORDEN submitted the following resoStrike out "Madison," and insert "New lution, which was laid on the table by consent: Albany." Resolved, That the committee on elective The amendment was rejected. franchise inquire into the expediency of proThe question then recurring upon the original viding in the Constitution for the exercise of the resolution of the gentleman from Jefferson, right of suffrage, so that in no instance shall (Mr. Gregg,) it was adopted. the exercise of that right depend upon the nat 52 uralization laws of Congress; and, also, to in- of January 1852, shall be individually liable to quire into the propriety ot allowing persons of the amount of their respective share or shares, foreign birth, who shall have resided one year of stock in any such corporation or association, in this State, declared their intentions to become for all its debts and liabilities of every kind, citizens of the United States, (or denizens of contracted after the said first day of January. this State,) and taken the oath of allegiance to SEC. 5. In case of the insolvency of any our own, and abjuration of all foreign gevern- bank or banking association, the bill holders ments, the privilege of voters. thereof shall be entitled to preference in payMr. DICK submitted the following resolution,ment over all other creditors of such bank or which was laid on the table by consent: association. Resolved 1st. That no State bank shall here- Mr. FOLEY submitted the following resoluafter be created, nor shall the State, directly or tion, which was laid upon the table by consent: indirectly, ever become a stockholder in any Resolved, That the following reforms ought to incorporation or association, created for the pur- be engrafted in the new Constitution: pose of issuing paper money of any description; 1st. A provision for biennial, instead of annor shall the State give or loan her credit, in nual sessions of the Legislature. aid of any individual or incorporation, for bank- 2nd. All officers to be elected by the people.. ing purposes. 3d General elections to be held on the first. 2nd. That no person, association of per- Tuesday in October, instead of the first Monday' sons, or corporation, shall put in circulation in August. any bill, certificate, promissory note, or oth- 4th. The Legislature to commence its session er paper, or the paper of any other bank, to on the first Monday in January. circulate as money, without first having satis- 5th. The Gubernatorial office extended to a fled the Legislature, with good and sufficient four years term, and a Governor to be ineligible pledges, that such paper money shall be redeem- for a second term. ed in specie, on demand. And every such per- 6th. No person to be allowed to hold two son, association, or corporation, shall be indi- offices of honor and profit at the same time, as. vidually liable for the redemption of the whole is now the case to the clerk's and recorder's; amount of such circulation; nor shall any such office. person, association of persons, or corporation, 7th. Associate judges of circuit courts disissue note or paper money of less denomination pensed with. than ten dollars. 8th. Local and special legislation wholly 3d. That the. Legislature shall have no power prevented. to pass laws for the suspension of specie pay- 9th. No tax to be levied by an act of the ments, in behalf of any individual, association Legislature, except to carry on and support the or incorporotion, issuing paper money of any State Government, unless such tax is first subdescription. mitted to a separate and direct vote of the Mr. READ of Clark submitted the following people, and by them authorized; existing charresolution, which was laid on the table by con- itable institutions to be excepted from this rule. sent: 10th. An express provision against allowingResolved, That the committee on currency the Legislature to borrow money, excepting in and banking be instructed to inquire into the time of war, or for public defence, without first expediency of inserting in the Constitution, the submitting it to the people. following sections, to-wit: lth. Fines and forfeitures, now appropriated SEC. 1st. The Legislature shall have no pow- to county seminaries, to be distributed for comer to pass any act, granting any special charter mon school purposes. for banking purposes; but corporations, or as- Mr. HOLMAN submitted the following resosociations may be formed for such purposes, lution; which was laid upon the table by conunder general laws. sent SEc. 2. The Legislature shall have no power to pass any law sanctioning, in any manner Resolved, 1st. That the legitimate object of a constitution is to declare the natural and inhedirectly or indirectly, the suspension of specieconstitution to declare the natural and hepayments, by any person, association, or corpo- rent rights of the citizen, to fix and establish ration, issuing bank notes of any description. the several departments of government, and deSEG. 3. The Legislature shall provide by clare and limit the powers to be exercised by law, for the registering of all bills or notes, is- eac sued, or put into circulation as money, and shall 2d. That no subject of a merely legislative require ample security for the redemption of character, and not fundamental in its nature, the same in specie. should be engrafted on the Constitution. SEC. 4. The stockholders in every corporation 3d. That it is anti-republican to restrain the and joint stock association, for banking purpos- exercise of the public will, through the Legislaes, issuing bank notes, or any kind of paper ture, by unnecessary restraints on the legislacredit, to circulate as money, after the first day tive department of the government. 53 STANDING COMMITTEES. object of their formation would be retarded and Mr. READ of Monroe moved, that the re-embarrassed. This wa more particularly- the port of the committee on the organization of case when a division was made of subject matstanding committees, be taken from the table ter that was necessarily combined, as in the by consent. three resolutions before them, the fifth, sixth, The motion was agreed to. and seventh. There was no possibility of makMr. READ of Monroe stated, that, by a mis- ing a clear line of demarcation with reference to this subject, one department being so necestake of the copyist, a standing committee on teroen t te This, of the elective franchise and the apportionment ofth course, would lead to embarrassment in the acRepresentation to consist of nine members, had been omitted. He would move that it be insert- tn the committee o rles had reprted t see that the committee on rules had reported a ed among the committees as No. 10, and that committee on the legislative department, also the numbers named be changed so as to corres- executive department But so far one on the executive department. But so far hond with the increase of one. as the judiciary was concerned, other commitThe motion was agreed to. tees had been proposed to be raised upon that Mr. EDMONSTON moved that the Conven- subject. In view of this fact, he would retion proceed to consider the organization of the spectfully inquire of gentlemen whether the or-.standing committees, in the order in which they ganization of the courts and the practice of law were numbered in the committee's report. were not as naturally connected as were the The motion was agreed to. various duties and powers of the Governor T The question being taken upon the adoption They might as well have a committee on the,of committee number one, on the rights and election, a committee on the tenure of office, privileges of the inhabitants of this State, to one on the veto power, and one on the pardonconsist of nine members, ing power of the Governor, as to have a comIt was decided in the affirmative. mittee upon every branch pertaining to the juThe question being upon the adoption of com- diciary. The division thus made was one that mittee number two, on the legislative depart- would lead to the formation of a half a dozen mnent, to consist of nine members, committees that might more properly be consoliMr. BORDEN moved to strike out the whole dated into one. provision, and insert the following substitute: He would ask if the organization of criminal On apportionment, election, and tenure of courts did not involve the exercise of criminal office of the Legislature, to consist of ten mem- law in these courts? And withreference to law bers, one from each congressional district. reforms and the practices of law, were they not On the powers and duties of the legislative necessarily connected with the organization of department, except matters otherwise referred, courts. It was very desirable that a provision to consist of nine members. should be made in the Constitution with referThe question being taken on the motion of ence to reform in the practice of law; but this the gentleman from Allen, (Mr. Borden,) object could be accomplished by a committee It was decided in the negative. organized as he had suggested. All these legal The question recurring upon the adoption of subjects should be under the jurisdiction of one.number two, committee, as they were necessarily connected It was decided in the affirmative. together. Law reforms could not be carried out The question being taken upon the adoption if courts were not organized in which those laws.of committee number three, on the executive, to could be put in practice. The division of these consist of nine members, legal subjects among three committees would It was decided in the affirmative. inevitably produce confusion. The question The question being taken upon the adoption would arise: how far shall one committee go:of committee number four, on the State offi- upon the practises, and how far should another cers other than executive and judiciary, to con- go with reference to law reforms, and how far,sist of seven members, should a third go with regard to the organization It was decided in the affirmative. of courts? These committees would be delibeThe question being upon the adoption of com- rating in different rooms as so many different vnittee number five, on the organization of courts bodies, without any mutual harmony in their acof justice, to consist of one member from each tion. It was for the purpose of consolidating judicial circuit, these subjects, and having them harmonize, that Mr. PETTIT said, that as the subjects em- he had proposed bringing them under the jurisbraced in this resolution and the two following diction of one committee. were properly connected, and could be more ap- But with reference to law reform, he would propriately acted upon by one committee, he enquire if there was any gentleman in the Conwas in favor of the question being taken upon vention who supposed that anything more than them unitedly. He was of opinion, that in pro- a clause of a few lines would be added to the portion as the committees were increased, in Constitution? Who was going to dovetail into the same ratio the final consummation of the the Constitution provisions having reference to 54 law reforms and practices. All that it was pro- proposed, had been made in other Conventions. posed to do was to insert a clause in the Con- He would inform the gentleman, that in the stitution, making it the duty of the Legislature Michigan Convention, which was composed of to provide for the appointment of three or five only ninety members, there were twenty-four of the ablest lawyers in the State as commis- committees; in the New York Convention numsioners to simplify the practice of law. Was it bering one hundred and twenty-eight members, necessary to raise a committee for that purpose! there were eighteen committees; and in the With regard to criminal law, it was not expect- Ohio Convention, numbering one hundred and ed that a committee should report an elaborate eight members, there were eighteen committees. and learned code on the subject. The subject The gentleman from Tippecanoe had further of the grand jury would probably be considered, stated that the organization of these commitbut that subject also properly belonged to the tees would tend to produce confusion, and judicial department. He had heard it mooted that they would intrench one upon the here and elsewhere, that in the matter of a pros- work of the other. Allowing this to be true, ecution, where the whole power of the State was what difficulty would arise! Had they not probrought to bear upon the one prosecuted, it was vided for a committee of revision and arrangedesigned to make a provision whereby the de- ment? These three committees he was of opin — fendant shall have the privilege of the closing ion should be retained and in fact, with great argument to the jury. He was willing to con- propriety, another committee having charge of sider the question, and to what committee could legal questions not otherwise provided for, might it be more appropriately referred than an old fash- be added to the number already proposed. At ioned judicial committee! all events he should be very reluctant to have In what body, he would enquire, had this sub- either of these committees at present proposed ject ever been so divided! stricken out. A VOICE-In Ohio. Mr. NAVE said, that it appeared to him that Mr. PETTIT. It was a piece of great folly. the proposed organization of so many commitMr. P. concluded his remarks by saying that, tees, was only a plan for conferring honor upon believing it would tend to harmony in the action gentlemen desirous of being made chairmen of of the Convention, he would move to strike out those committees. Gentlemen should consider the fifth, sixth, and seventh provisions, and in- seriously of the embarrassment in the business sert the following: of the Convention, that would result from the "On the judiciary, to consist of one member organization of so many committees. There from each Judicial Circuit." was an act passed in the reign of Charles II, of Mr. EDMONSTON asked for a division of England, drawn up by one of the ablest jurists the question. of the land, Lord Bacon, and was known to all The PRESIDENT decided the question could lawyers as the Statute of Frauds. That statute not be divided. had been incorporated in the laws of the State Mr. REED of Monroe said, that it was of Indiana, as it had been in the laws of every plainly evident to him, that a committee on the other State of the Confederacy. And he would organization of courts of justice-a committee respectfully ask, how the different branches of that should fix the organization of the supreme that statute could be acted upon with celerity court, which performed nisi prius duties, and, and without perplexity, if it was parceled out also, the organization of the probate courts, among different committees. He merely cited would have as much business before it as it this as an illustration of the difficulties that could properly attend to; and such a committee would arise from the division of subjects that should be composed of the ablest lawyers in the properly came under one head. He was in favor Convention. With regard to the committee of having as few committees raised as possible. on matters pertaining to criminal law-the Mr. NILES stated, that he was a member of sixth-he would say, that the subjects of the the committee to whom was referred the organ-.grand jury, the abolition of the death penalty, ization of the standing committees, and that he and a house of refuge, would all go to that had acquiesced in their report, in opposition to committee, and any one of them would be suffi- his first impressions respecting it. He thought cient to occupy the attention of a committee. there was evidence of a disposition among the How was it in regard to the committee on members of the Convention, to raise only those the practice of the law and law reform! What committees that were strictly proper; and he subjects would go to that committee! Gentle- would here express his regret that the gentlemen would probably bring forward resolutions man from Hendricks (Mr. Nave) had seen fit for the abolishment of special pleading; also to throw out insinuations with reference to the for the doing away with the distinction between motives of the gentlemen who advocate the orlaw and equity proceedings. There were other ganization of a large number of committees-insubjects, also, to be acted upon, and he had no sinuations that appeared to him wholly unjustidoubt there would be plenty of work for the fiable. He was fully satisfied that the committhree committees. The gentleman from Tippe- tee in preparing the report presented, had done canoe had said that no such divisions, as now so with no desire of pandering to the ambition of 55 any other member of the Convention. He had It was decided in the affirmative. no doubt that such was the opinion of the Con- The question being upon the adoption of vention, and that such would be the opinion of committee number eight, on special and local the people. He was of opinion, that the organ- legislation and uniformity of laws, to consist of ization of two of these committees could very seven members, properly be consolidated into one; and he would Mr. EDMONSTON moved'to amend by striksuggest to the gentleman from Tippecanoe, a ing out the word "seven," and inserting the modification of his resolution, viz.: To strike out word "nine," so that the committee should conthe proposed committee on the organization of sist of nine members. courts of justice, and insert a committee " on The amendment was rejected. the organization of courts of justice, the prac- The question then recurring upon the adoptice of law, and law reform." This would leave tion of committee number eight, as reported by the committee on matters pertaining to crimi- the select committee, nal law still standing. It was decided in the affirmative. Mr. PETTIT would accept the gentleman's The question being taken upon the adoption amendment as a substitute for his resolution. of committee number nine, on impeachment Mr. PETTIT would simply state to gentle- and removals from office, to consist of five memmen, that he had been informed that in the ibers, Kentucky Convention, three committees were It was decided in the affirmative. raised similar to those now proposed, but finding The question being upon adopting committee upon trial, that they worked incongruously, they number ten, on the elective franchise and the were consolidated, apportionment of representation, to consist of Mr. BASCOM remarked, that perhaps it was nine members, useless for him to contend with the ablest law- Mr. BORDEN moved to amend, by striking yers of the Convention in reference to this mat- out the words "nine members," and inserting ter of organizing committees; but. notwitstand- the words "one from each judicial circuit." ing all the arguments that had been advanced, Mr. FOSTER said, that he was in favor of he could not see any necessity for consolidating augmenting the number composing the comthese committees. It appeared very plain to mittee because he regarded the committee as a him that the committee on the organization of very important one, and he would state his reacourts of justice, should be retained. This com- sons for so thinking. Our Congressmen would inittee would decide as to the number of judges be elected only one term more on the basis of to be employed in the supreme and probate the present apportionment of representation. courts, and the number of circuits, &c. These After that term had expired they would be electsubjects bore no analogy to the subject of law ed in accordance with the apportionment of reform. They were of a different character representation furnished by the census taken and should be kept separated; and he further de- last June. Congress had passed a law changsired that they might be so divided out to appro- ing the present form of Congressional Districts, priate committees as that they might receive a making so many Congressmen for the State, inthorough investigation. stead of dividing them in proportion to the numHe could not see how the views of the ber of inhabitants. The number of Congressseveral committees were going to conflict with men had been fixed at two hundred and thirtyeach other, when their duties were plainly laid five, thus making the Congressmen the divisor down, viz.: one to have charge of the subject of instead of the inhabitants. This subject then the organization of courts of justice-one to would appropriately come under the consideraconsider matters pertaining to criminal law, and tion of this committee, and to them would fall a third to consider upon the practice of law and the duty of dividing the State into Senatorial law reform. and Representative districts. The question being taken upon the resolution In view of the importance of the committee, of the gentleman from Tippecanoe (Mr. Pettit,) therefore, he thought it should consist of thiras amended by the gentleman from Laorte, teen members, one from each judicial circuit. (Mr. Niles,) it was rejected. Mr. BORDEN said, that the gentleman from The question recurring upon the adoption of Monroe (Mr. Foster) had fallen into a very committee number five, as reported by the se- great error in supposing that the Convention lect committee, would district the State for Congressional purIt was decided in the affirmative. poses. That was a power conferred upon the The question being taken upon the adoption State Legislature, and he apprehended that they of committee number six, on matters pertaining would exercise it at the proper time. He conto criminal law, to consist of seven members, curred with the gentleman from Monroe, however, It was decided in the affirmative. as to the propriety of an increase in the numThe question being taken upon the adoption ber of the committee. In the Ohio Convenof committee number seven, on the practice of tion, a committee of like character to this conthe law and law reform, to consist of one mem- sisted of twenty-one members. After the subber from each judicial circuit, i ject of taxation, the most difficult question to 56 settle was the one fixing upon a proper repre- Of committee number seventeen, sentation; and he would remark that, in his On education, to consist of nine members; opinion,they were not confined in their appor- Of committee number eighteen, tionment of the representatives in Congress to On future amendments to the Constitution, to the census taken in June last. Congress had consist of five members; fixed the number of Congressmen for all the Of committee number nineteen, States, to be sure, but it was for the Legisla- On public institutions of the State, to consist tive bodies of the States to decide upon the of five members; mode of apportionment among their citizens. They were severally adopted by consent. He was in favor of increasing the committee The question being upon the adoption of comto thirteen members, one from each judicial cir- mittee number twenty, cuit. On salaries, compensation and tenure of ofMr. FOSTER said he wished to make a few fice, to consist of five members, remarks in reply to those just delivered by the Mr. BORDEN enquired if this committee on gentleman from Allen (Mr. Borden.) Either the tenure of office would have charge of the that gentleman or himself, had made a very subject of biennial sessions of the Legislature? great mistake. The act of Congress, upon this Also, if it would fix the time the judges would subject, as gentlemen could readily see upon ex- serve, and the tenure of state and county offiamination, provided that whenever the subject cers-or were these matters to be referred to of apportionment was taken up, that apportion- other committees' Unless these references ments should be made upon the basis of the cen- were made clear, the committees would be ensus taken last June. trenching one upon the other. Now, if the Convention had the right to make Mr. CLARK of Tippecanoe was of opinion, an apportionment of State Senators and Repre- that the Convention could settle the question of sentatives, they had the same right to apportion these references when the proper time arrived. their Representatives in Congress. This was a Mr. WATTS said, he regarded this one of precedent that had been established by other the most important committees on the catalogue. States heretofore; at least, when they emerged It was one that absorbed the greatest portion from territories into States, this had uniformly of the revenue of the State, and should therebeen the practice. They were to be governed, fore be increased. He would move to strike then, in the apportionment of representation by out the word "five," and insert "nine," so that the census taken the first of June last. the committee should consist of nine members. The question was then taken upon the amend- The amendment was agreed to. ment of the gentleman from Allen (Mr. Borden) The question recurring upon the adoption of and it was concurred in, and committee number the committee, number ten, as amended, ten as amended was adopted. Mr. HOLMAN of Dearborn moved to strike The question being taken out after the word "compensation," the word Upon the adoption of committee number "and tenure." The committee on the organieleven, zation of committees of courts of justice, he said, On county and township organization, power would,as a matter of course, fix upon the number and officers, to consist of one member from each of judges, and the tenure of office of each one; Congressional District; and the committee on State officers would have Of committee number twelve, the same duty to perform with reference to On currency and banking, to consist of elev- State officers. en members; The amendment was concurred in, and comOf committee number thirteen, mittee number twenty, as amended, was adopted. On co-porations other than banking, to consist Mr. BORDEN here moved the appointment of nine members; and of the following additional standing committee: Of committee number fourteen, On the rights of married women and exemptOn state debt and public works, to consist of ions real and personal. seven members; iMr. READ of Monroe remarked, that he They were severally adopted by consent. would.prefer raising a committee having a wider The question being upon the adoption of com- jurisdiction than over the two subjects the genmittee number fifteen, tleman from Allen had referred to. He would On finance and taxation, to consist of seven have a committee raised on legal questions not members, otherwise provided for, and upon the divisions Mr. HOLMAN moved to strike out the word and limitations of the powers of government. "seven," and insert the words "thirteen, one To such a committee the subject of Homestead from each judicial circuit." Exemption was properly referable, as was also The amendment was concurred in, and com- the subject of the legality and validity of claims mittee number fifteen as amended was adopted. against the State, and several other matters of The question being taken upon the adoption that description. He was particularly desirous, of committee number sixteen, also, of having a committee that would define On the militia, to consist of five members; the limitation of the powers of the govern 57 ment. He wanted that the State should be cation, which was laid upon the table, by conconfined to the simple duty of government. He sent: did not wish it to become a banker, or a hotel To THE PRESIDENT OF THE CONVENTION: keeper, or a builder of canals and other works of internal improvement. i.H]e would move to The undersigned, Printer to the State, havstrike out all after the resolving clause of theing been excused from participating in any acresolution offered by the gentleman from Allen, tion, in regard to the subject of his claims and and insert the words "on legal questions not responsibilities as State Printer, respectfully otherwise provided for, and on the division and asks the privilege of having the question argued limitations of the power of government, to on his behalf upon its legal and equitable merits, consist of seven members." before the Convention, by his Attorney. J. P. CHAPMAN, Mr. PETTIT said, that the subject of home- State Printer. stead exemption, to his obtuse mind, appeared more properly referable to the Legislative cor- Mr. PETTIT moved, that the Convention mittee, because they would instruct the Legis- adjourn until 9 o'clock Monday Morning; lature to pass laws exempting certain property, whereupon, real and personal, from execution. Here was The Convention adjourned. an evidence of the absurdity of so large a number of committees, for one gentleman was stating that it was the duty of a committee to do this thing, and another gentleman to do that, MONDAY, Oct. 14, 1850. and the consequence was that the business of (Convention met pursuant to adjournment, the Convention would be greatly embarrassed. onvention met pursuant to adjournment, Mr. OWEN rem, tt w r c e aud was opened with prayer by Rev. Mr. BABB. wMr. OWENi remarked tht what aever coursey The journal of the preceding day having been was taken with reference to that matter they read ought not to adopt the first proposition, that of Mr BOWERS asked leave of absence for the gentleman from Allen. (Mr. Borden.) the gentleman from Alien. (Mr. Borden.) i Mr. Robinson of Decatur, for one week; which It seemed to him that homestead exemption o w ranted and the rights of married women were subjects The PRESIDENT announced the following entirely'incongrous. In several States of the standing committees of the Convention Union married women had certain rights of prop- th Rigts and Pri of the Cnhanerty guarantied to them, and whether they adopt-. theRights and Prvleesof theInha ed a similar course or not, they should be incor- itants of this State.-Messrs. Owen, Graham porated in the bill of rights. The subiect of of Miami, Niles, Haddon, Prather, Coats, Murhomestead exemption was an entirely different ray, Chapman, and Berry. one. He favored the committee proposed by 2. On the Legislative Department.-Messrs. the chairman of the committee on rules. Bright, Smiley, Clark of Tippecanoe, SchoonThe q n b g t n un te a - over, Walpole, Emerson, Duzan, and Beach. The question being taken upon the amend- 3. n the Executive. Messrs. Morrison of 3. On the Executive.-Messrs. Morrison of ment of the gentleman from Monroe (Mr. Read) Marion, Stevenson, Beard, Sherrod, Gordon, to the amendment of the gentleman from Alle n, Bascom, and Barbour. (Mr. Borden,) it was rejected. 4. On State Officers other than the Executive The question recurring upon the additional and Judiciary.Messrs. Read of Clark, Moore, standing committee proposed by Mr. Borden, Bicknell, Bracken, Farro, Mowrer, and Fris It was decided in the negative. bie The question being taken upon the adoption 5 On the Organization of the Courts of Jusof committee number twenty-one, on miscel-tice.-First circuit, Mr. Petitt; Second circuit, aneous provisions, to consist of five members; Thornton Third circuit, Dunn of Jefferson, Of committee number twenty-two, onrevis-Fourth circuit, Lockhart; Fifth circuit, Navel: ion, arrangement, and phraselogy, to consist Sixth circuit, Rariden; Seventh circuit, Davis of the chairmen of the twenty-one preceding of Vermillion; Eighth circuit, Biddle; Ninth committees; circuit, Anthony; Tenth circuit, Terry; ElevOf a committee on elections, tc consist of five enth circuit, McClelland; Twelfth circuit, members; Howe; Thirteenth circuit, Smith of Ripley. Of a committee on accounts, to consist of five 6. On matters pertaining to Criminal Law. members; — Messrs. Kent, Davis of Madison, Mooney, They were severally adopted by consent. Hawkins, Chandler, Carter, and May. Mr. COOKERLY moved to take from the 7. On the Practice of Law and Law Reform. table the resolutions submitted by him, on the -Twelfth circuit, Mr. Borden; First circuit, subject of a correspondence, by the Secretary Ristine; Second circuit, Gibson; Third circuit, and Auditor of State, with certain county offi- Kelso; Fourth circuit, Hall; Fifth circuit, Walcers, for information. lace; Sixth circuit, Newman; Seventh circuit, The motion was not agreed to. Cookerly; Eighth circuit, Kendall of Warren; The Chair submitted the following communi- Ninth circuit, Mather; Tenth circuit, Reed of 58 Monroe; Elevecth circuit, March; Thirteenth Walpole, Holliday, McLean, Hawkins, and Robcircuit, Holman. inson. 8. On Special and Local Legislation, and Uni- 22. On Revision, Arrangement and Phraseformity of Laws.-Messrs. Newman, Helmer, ology.-Messrs. Owen, Bright, Morrison of MaMiller of Gibson, Allen, Snook, Crumbacker, rion, Read of Clark, Pettit, Kent, Borden, Newand Pepper of Crawford. man, Rariden, Graham of Warrick, Smith of 9. On Impeachment and Removals from Office. Ripley, Hamilton, Read of Monroe, Hall, Kil-Messrs. Rariden, Biddle, Garvin, Mathes, and gore, Pepper of Ohio, Morrison of Washington, Brookbank. Ritchey, Wallace, Dobson, and Walpole. 10. On the Elective Franchise and the Appor- Committee on Elections.- Messrs. Kelso, tionment of Representation.-Fourth circuit, Mr. Shannon, Robinson, Fisher, and Cole. Graham of Warrick; First circuit, Miller of Committee on Accounts.-Messrs. Wheeler, Clinton; Second circuit, Smith of Scott; Helm, Yocum, Bowers, and Tague. Third circuit, Pepper of Ohio; Fifth circuit, On motion of Mr. EDMONSTON, the list Vanbenthusen; Sixth circuit, Thomas; Seventh of standing committees was laid upon the table circuit, Davis of Parke; Eighth circuit, Harbolt; and ordered to be printed. Ninth circuit, Anthony; Tenth circuit, Foster; Mr. HALL moved to take from the table the Eleventh circuit, Clark of Hamilton; Twelfth resolutions submitted by him on Wednesday last, circuit, Wunderlich; Thirteenth circuit, Berry. on the subject of - 11. On County and Township Organization, The motion was agreed to; when, on motion Powers and Officers.-Third Congressional Dis- Of Mr. HALL, the resolutions were referred trict, Mr. Smith of Ripley; First district, Alex- to the committee respectively named. ander; Second district, Prather; Fourth dis- Number one was referred to the committee trict, Beeson; Fifth district, Hendricks; Sixth on salaries, compensation, and tenure of office. district, Gootee; Seventh district, Barbour; Number two, or so much thereof as relates to Eighth district, Clark of Tippecanoe; Ninth a State Bank and branches, referred to the comdistrict, Kendall of Wab&sh; Ternth district, mittee on currency and banking. Hogin. And so much of said resolution number two, 12. On Currency] and Banking.-Mlessrs. as relates to creating corporations under a genHamilton, Taylor, Dick, Colfax, Mooney, Dunn eral law, was referred to the committee on corof Perry, Hardin, Helmer, Watts, Todd, and porations other than banking. Shoup. So much of number three, as relates to spe13. On Corporations other than Banking. — cial legislation, to the committee on special and Messrs. Reed of Monroe, Dobson, Kindley, Wi- local legislation and uniformity of laws. ley, Gregg, Johnson, Simms, Badger, and But- And so much of number three, as provides ler. that no act shall embrace more than one subject, 14. On State Debt and Public Works.- and that shall be expressed in the title; and upMessrs. Hall, Milroy, Zenor, Ritchey, Maguire, on the passage of any bill in either House, the Trembly, and Chenowith. ayes and noes shall be entered upon the journals, 15. On Finance and Taxation.-Eleventh and that no act of the General Assembly be in circuit, Mr. Kilgore; First circuit, McFarland; force until after its publication in print and disSecond circuit, Logan; Third circuit, Tanne- tribution amongst the people, was referred to hill; Fourth circuit, Hovey; Fifth circuit, Hen- the committee on the legislative department. dricks; Sixth circuit, Balingall; Seventh cir- Number four was referred to the committee cuit, Bourne; Eighth circuit, Miller of Fulton; on the legislative department. Ninth circuit, Niles; Tenth circuit, Conduit; Number five was referred to the committee on Twelfth circuit, Work; Thirteenth circuit, Fo- finance and taxation. ley. Number six, to the committee on the legis16. On the Militia.-Messrs. Pepper of Ohio, lative department. SPann, Steel, Huff and Kilgore. Number seven,to the committee on education. 7. On Education. - Messrs. Morrison of Number eight, or so much thereof as provides ~Vashington, Bryant, May, Hitt, Foster, Ste- that all distinctions between proceedings in Tenson, Nofsinger, Milligan, and Blythe. courts of law and equity shall be abolished, 18. On Future Amendments to the Constitu- referred to the committee on the practice of law tion.-Messrs. Ritchey, Crawford, Edmonston, and law reform. Wheeler, and Murray. And so much of said number eight, as pro19. On Public Institutions of the State.- vides that all distinctions between different Messrs. Wallace, Bryant, Colfax, Nofsinger, and kinds of actions, also referred to the committee Jones. on the practice of law and law reform. 20. On Salaries, Compensation, and Tenure Number nine, referred to the committee on of Office.-Messrs. Dobson, Pettit, Howe,Bright, the elective franchise and the apportionment of Lockhart, Miller of Gibson, Maguire, and Tay- representatives. lor. Number ten, referred to the committee on the 21. On Miscellaneous Provisions.-Messrs. legislative department. 59 On motion WASHINGTON CITY, Oct. 11. Of Mr. EDMONSTON, the papers hereto- ROBT. DALE OWEN: fore submitted, in relation to the contested seat We have paid for reporting debates two last in Union county, were taken from the table, and sessions four dollars a column of the Intellireferred to the committee on elections. gencer-bourgeois type. On motion GALES & SEATON. Of Mr. EDMONSTON, the credentials of membersheretofore presented, were taken from WASHINGTON CITY, Oct. 11, 1850. the table, and referred to the committee on ROBT. DALE OWEN: elections. The Globe and Intelligencer of this city chargMr. OWEN submitted the following report: ed three cents per line of printed matter, or four MR. PRESIDENT: dollars twenty-five cents per column. J. C. ROBB. The committee on the employment and remu-.. neration of a stenographer, to whom were re- he report was concurredin. ferred certain resolutions on that subject, have Mr. PEPPER of Ohio moved to take from unanimously instructed me to report, that by the table the resolution submitted by him on the the twelfth section of the act providing for the 11th inst in relation to the expenses of the call of this Convention, it is provided that a Government, &c., which was decided in the afcompetent stenographer shall be appointed by firmative, but before action thereon, was again the Governor, and that the pay of the said ste-laid upon the table by consent. nographer, shall be certified by the President, and shall be paid by the Treasurer of State, on RULES AND REGULATIONS. the warrant of the Auditor of Public Accounts. Mr. MAGUIRE moved to take from the taThat in accordance with the provisions of the ble the report of the committee on orders and above section, Mr. HARVEY FOWLER, of Wash- rules. ington City, was appointed by the Governor to The motion was agreed to, and the Conventhe office of stenographer to this Convention; tion proceeded to the consideration of the report and that the Convention has been duly notified of the committee on orders and rules for the of said appointment. Thus by the act in ques- government of the Convention. tion, the manner of appointment and the mode 1The question being separately taken upon the of payment, are to be fixed; the rate of remu- adoption of the rulesneration alone, remains undetermined. Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7; 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 having en e h. s, were adopted by consent. The reasonable inference, your committee wr opted by The question beini upon the adoption of rule think, is, that the Legislature intended he should e uton e o th e adopion of rule receive the compensation usually paid else- fourteen, which rad as follows: whereceive the.,iaandr as. Messrs. A om & p- "Any ten members shall have a right to call where, for similar services. More, your cm- the yeas and nays, provided they shall request it mittee has understood, he d oes not demand; less, the yeas and nays, t he re before the question is put," having engaged his services, the Convention cannot, in the opinion of your committee, prop- Mr. TAGUE moved to strike out the word erly offer him. "ten" and insert the word "two." The adopYour committee telegraphed to Messrs. tion of this amendment, he said, would give a BLAIR & RIVES, and also to Messrs. GALES & full opportunity for members who might be in a SEATON, both of Washington City, as to the minority upon some important question under rates of compensation paid by them to a steno- consideration to call for the yeas and nayswheregraphic corps for reporting and writing out. by their constituents could understand the posiready for the press, the debates of Congress. tions they had occupied when such questions Their replies are herewith submitted for the in- were finally settled. formation of the Convention. It ma y be prop- Mr. DOBSON would state to the gentleman er to add, that in a column of the Intelligencer, from Hancock, that the thirty-second rule providin bourgeoise type, there are, on an average, two ed tnat, upon the third reading of all important thousand words. questions, the yeas and nays should always be Your committee report back the resolution taken and recorded. If the proposed amendment declining the services of a stenographer, and was adopted, any two of the members who recommend that it be laid on the table. chose to persist in demanding the yeas and They also report the resolutions recognizing i nays would have them ordered. and approving the stenographer appointed by Mr. TAGUE was satisfied with the explanathe Governor, and providing that he be paid at tion of the gentleman from Owen, and would the rates of compensation usually paid for such withdraw his amendment. services in Washington City, and recommend The amendment was accordingly withdrawn. its passage. Mr. STEEL said, that he felt it to be his duty And they ask to be discharged from the furth- to renew the motion of the gentleman from er consideration of the subject. Hancocl- (Mr. Tague) to strike out the word 60 4"ten" and insert the word "two." It appeared ble difference of opinion in regard to it-some to him that the good sense and wisdom of the contending that thirty, others twenty, and othmembers would dictate prudence in regard to ers ten, should constitute the number of memcalling the yeas and nays. For one, he was bers necessary to demand the yeas and nays. inclined to afford the utmost latitude for the As a matter of compromise, the committee had -expression of opinion, and for the public record finally fixed the number at ten.,of the votes of the members whenever they saw Mr. BASCOM stated that he differed with fit to speak or -vote during the sittings of the gentlemen as to the propriety of its requiring Convention. He wanted no gaglaw that would ten members to have the yeas and nays taken. influence the action of that body in the slight- The argument of the gentleman from Posey est degree. (Mr. Owen) was a very good one, but was by Mr. OWEN observed, that he considered no means satisfactory or conclusive, to his this privilege of demanding the yeas and nays mind. He considered some questions that to be one of the most important that could be would come before that body-intermediate guarantied in any legislative body-and if he questions-as important as those voted upon really thought that this privilege was curtailed finally. Every member knew very well that by the present phraseology of the rule, he there was always a kind of manceuvreing pracshould certainly vote to strike out the word ticed in legislative bodies for the purpose "ten" and insert the word "two," as proposed of preventing the yeas and nays from going by the gentleman from Wabash (Mr. Steele). upon the journal. Under the rule as it now He would remark to the Convention, however, read, if there were only nine members who that the uniform practice in Congress during should rise to call the yeas and nays-and in his term of service-which practice had not his part of the State nine delegates would repbeen changed since that term had expired- resent a large portion of the country-the voice was not to permit the calling of the yeas and of the constituency of these nine members could nays unless one-fifth of the members demanded not be heard in that Hall. Those delegates that they should be ordered. In that Conven- were deprived of the power of showing to the tion one-fifth of the members would amount to people they represented, the vote they had thirty, but he would not vote for the adoption given. He could see no reason why two memof this rule by the Convention, because he bers of the Convention should not have the knew, from the feeling apparent among mem- right of placing their names upon the journal bers, that that number would be regarded as for the purpose of showing the vote they had too large. It did appear to him, that the com- given upon any particular measure. mittee, in making ten the necessary numberH of Ripley remarked, that he was l Mr. SMITH of Ripley remarked, that he was for the calling of the yeas and nays, had struck committee who had reported upon the just medium. Ten members were but this rule, and he believed that it was upon his the one-fifteenth part of the body, and if only motion that the n ber of members necessary ten members voted for a call of the yeas and motio tat the nuber o nays-etene" was rnto demand the yeas and nays-"ten," was innays, it fully proved that fourteen-fifteenths of ated in This was after the last clause them considered such a call a waste oftime. )corporated in it. This was after the last clause them considered such a call a waste of time. Not more than four or five calls of the yeas and of the thirty-second article providing for a call Not more than four or five calls of the yeas and of the yeas and nays on the final ssage of could b takeni the course f an hour, of the yeas and nays on the final passage of nays could be taken in the course of an hour, and as a saving of time, he thought the rule, as evey ar heonstitution, had been adopted. Originally he had been in favor of the Conat present constructed, commended itself to the e. o nal rule, req iring that one fifth of the favorabe c o o m. It w d r' essional rule, requiring that one fifth of the favorable consideration of members. It would members of the House, only could have the be well for gentlemen to recollect, that they could have the >w ogtm elc ty yeas and nays ordered. It was easy enough to were, every day of their sitting, at a moderate y me s to rase ad de d te estimate, putting the State of Indiana to an especially if to e sysem and he ye expense of over six hundred dollars. At this n, eecill i the m of man vr rate the taking of the yeas and n.ays would ing, to which the gentleman from Wells (Mr. cost considerable. He would not vote for this Bascom) had referred, was carried into effect. It would require but little manceuvreing to have rule were it not for the fact already alluded to, It would require but little manuvreing to have that the thirty-second rule provided, that upon the yeas and nays recorded on the journal. If thatie e it was the gentleman's desire t-second ruecord his name the final passage of every article proposed to n every vote that was given, a rule could upon every vote that was given, a rule could be engrafted into the Constitution, the yeas e y be aoted by th Convention making and nays were imperatively ordered to be ta- provision for the record the entleman's name, ken. The intermediate questions that would gentleman w m or the name of any other gentleman who might arise before the final passage of the articles of of sy g be desirous of so doing, on the journal, in the the Constitution, would be of no comparative do, o te ora i te form of a protest. importance. Mr. HALL wished, before the vote was tak- The question was then taken upon the en upon the question before them, to state amendment offered by the gentleman from Wathat he was a member of the committee who bash (Mr. Steel) and it was rejected. drafted this rule, and that there was considera- The question then recurred upon the adop 61 tion of rule fourteen as reported by the corn- would lie over for three days. Now he would mittee. ask with this Rule in operation, if a subject Mr. MORRISON of Marion moved to amend might not be staved, off until there was an imby adding the following: possibility of reaching it? "But every member shall have the right to Mr. BORDEN stated that the object of the enter his protest upon the journal without ar- Rule was simply to prevent any unjust exercise gument." of the motion to re-consider. It was a well The amendment was concurred in, and ruleknown fact in regard t legislative bodies that fourteen as amended was then adopted. often times there were questions arising, that in a moment of excitement were passed and Rules 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20, were then a moment of ment ere passed and adopted by consent. b a motion to reconsider made immediately, and aMr. BORDEN moved to amend rule 21, by laid on the table, thus preventing any further inserting after the word "Convention" and be-action dn the qestin. Whereas, if after a fore the word "upon" the following: " so far as question waspassed, a day or two was allowed the same may be applicable, except the rulesto elapse beforethe motion to re-consider was limiting the times of speaking," but no membermade there could be no complaint of hasty and. shall speak twice on any question until everyunjust legislation. member choosing to speak shall have spoken. Mr. PETTIT was inclined to think that the The motion was afgreed to and Rule 21 as amen- clause " and if lost shall not be renewed or any ded, was then adopted. vote taken on a re-consideration a second time Rules 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, and 29, were unless with the consent," should be stricken adopted by consent. out entirely. As so far as he was concerned, Mr. BRACKEN moved to amend Rule thir- he had never heard of moving a reconsideration ty, by striking out the words "to vote on thea second time. question;" Mr. CLARK of Tippecanoe, thought that Which was decided in the affirmative. And no possible evil could result from this clause of the rule as amended, was adopted by consent. the rule. On the contrary, it would have a Rule 31, was then adopted by consent. good tendency because it would prevent, as had On motion, the word " Convention" was sub- already been remarked, any hasty or immature stituted for the word " committee" between the legislation. It onlyl gave the Convention an words "the" and "shall" in Rule No. 32, and opportunity to retrace its stepsif it were thought the Rule as amended was adopted. advisable-and to do that the unanimous conRule No. 33, was adopted by consent. sent of the Convention would be requisite. Rule No. 34 was amended by adding the Mr. EDMONSTON hoped that the suggeswords " of the whole " after the word " commit- tion of the gentleman from Marion, would be tee" and before the word " or " and the rule as carried out. As no gentleman had as vet, made amended was adopted. the motion he would move that on the last line The question being upon the adoption of of the Rule the word "three" be stricken out Rule 35, which reads as follows: and the word " one " inserted. " When a motion has been made and decided The amendment was concurred in and Rule in the affirmative or negative,it shall be in or- 35 as amended was then adopted. der for any member of the majority at any time Rules 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, and 43, were to move for the reconsideration thereof. But then adopted by consent. the question shall not be taken on the same Mr. GRAHAM of arwick, moved the folday, unless by unanimous consent; and if lost owin as an additional Rule: shall not be renewed, or any vote taken on areconsideration a second time unless with the"Any resolutions or propositions introduced consent of the Convention. If the motion to by any delegate for the purpose of. referring the reconsider is not made on the same day, three same to any standing committee, shall embrace days' notice shall be required of the intention one subject only." to make it. Mr. SMITH of Ripley, moved to amend by Mr. PEPPER of Ohio, moved to insert the substituting the following: word "unanimous" in the sixth line after the "That no member shall offer more than one word "the"' and before the word "consent." Resolution on the same day, and that each The amendment was concurred in. Resolution shall embrace but one subject." The question recurring upon the adoption of The question being taken on the amendment Rule 35 as amended, of the gentleman from Ripley, it was decided Mr. MORRISON of Marion, said he wished in the negative. to call the attention of the Convention to a The question then being upon the adoption provision contained in this Rule, upon the sub- of Rule 44, it was decided in the affirmative. ject of reconsideration. By this rule, if a mo- Mr. Zenor offered the following as an addition to reconsider was not made on the same tionalRule: day, the subject proposed to be reconsidered Any member submitting any matter which 62 may be referred to any of the standing commit- Sixteenth.-Finance and Taxation; tees, shall be considered a member of the com- Seventeenth.-The Militia; mittee during the investigation of the subject." Eighteenth.-Education; Mr. HARDIN moved to amend by adding Nineteenth.-Future Amendments of the " but shall have no right to vote in such com- Constitution; mittee." Twentieth.-Public Institutions of the State; The amendment was accepted by Mr. Zenor. Twenty-first.-Salaries, Compensation, and The question then remaining upon the rules Tenure of Office; as amended. it was rejected. Twenty-second.-Miscellaneous Provisions; Mr. BORDEN submitted the following reso- Twenty-third.Revison, Arrangement, and lutions: Phraseology; Twenty-fourth.-Accounts. Resolved, That three hundred copies of the FIFTH-Reports from Select Committees. " Rules and Orders" adopted to-day, together SIXTH.Resolutions of the Convention. with the Constitution of the State heretofore SEVENTH.-Order of the Day. ordered, be printed and stitched together for the -r. use of the Convention. On motion by Mr. DOBSON, itwas ordered Also that three hundred copies of the list of that the foregoing order of business be printed the standing committees be printed for the use with the Constitution, rules, and list of standof the Convention, ing committees. Which was adopted by consent. STATE PRINTER. On motion, Mr. CHAPMAN had leave to The PRESIDENT announced the first busiwithdraw the communication submitted by him ness in order, to be the consideration of the reon the 12th inst., on the subject of State Prin- port of the select committee, appointed under ter. the resolution of Mr. Milroy, to enquire into On motion of Mr. MILLER of Gibson, the the legality of the claim of the State Printer Convention adjourned until 2 o'clock, P. M. to do the printing of this Convention. [The report having been read by the SecAFTERNOON SESSION. retary,] retary,] ORDER OF BUSINESS. Mr. NAVE rose and said, he would ask the The PRESIDENT submitted the following indulgence of the Convention while he subas the daily order of business for the Conven- mitted a few remarks in reference to this retion: port. The question involved here was purely FIRST.-Prayerby the Reverend Clergy. a legal question-a question that must be deSEcoNn.-Reading the Journal. termined, if properly determined, with referTHIRD.-Petitions, Memorials, and Remon- ence to the legal right of the individual who strances. claimed to be printer to the Convention by virFoURTH.-Reports from Standing Commit- tue of his appointment as State Printer, by the tees: authority of the State Legislature. But lookFirst.-On Elections; ing at the question in a legal point of view, it Second.-Rights and Privileges of the Inhab- became necessary to settle the question irreitants of this State; spective of the applicants before the ConvenThird.-The Legislative Department; tion, not looking to the interest either of the Fourth.-The Executive; incumbent of the office of State Printer, or of Fifth.-State Officers other than Executive any applicant for his place. It became necesand Judicial; sary to trace the history of the election of the Sixth.-The Organization of Courts of Jus- State Printer, (Mr. J. P. Chapman,) and the tice; law under which the Legislature proceeded in Seventh. —Matters pertaining to Criminal his election. It seemed, from the state of Law; facts presented, that Mr. Chapman was elected Eighth.-The Practice of Law and Law Re- State Printer in the month of January, 1850, form; for a term of three years. Ninth.-Special and Local Legislation, and [Mr. N. here proceeded to read from the Uniformity of Laws; Revised Statutes as follows:] Tenth.-Impeachment and Removal from Of- "There shall be elected triennially, countfice; ing from the month of January, one thousand Eleventh.-The Elective Franchise and the eight hundred and forty-one, by the General Apportionment of Representation; Assembly, on joint ballot, a State Printer, who Twelfth.-County and Township Organiza- shall serve for three years, from and after the tion; first day of August next, after his election; Thirteenth.-Currency and Banking; and such printer shall, within twenty days afFourteenth.-Corporations other than Bank- ter his said election, enter into bond with suffi-.ing; cient surety to the satisfaction of the SecreFifteenth.-State Debt and Public Works; tary and Treasurer of State, and Auditor of 63 Public Accounts, with conditions forthe prompt, vention, it was necessary to look into the Stataccurate, and workmanlike execution of the ute of 1850, by which the body was called into public printing, and the faithful performance existence. of all the duties required of him by law." He now read from the General Laws, page It seemed that Mr. J. P. Chapman had been 29, as follows: elected under this statute. It was enjoined "The Delegates, who shall be elected as upon him by law to give a bond for the faithful aforesaid, shall assemble in Convention at the discharge of the duties of his office. It seem- Capitol, in the city of Indianapolis, on the first ed that he had done this, and had informed the Monday in October next, and organize by electConvention that he was ready to do the print- ing a president and all other officers necessary." ing for the State. The question then was this: I It was plain that the public printer was not was Mr. Chapman an officer of the State, or a an oficer of the Convention. or was it necmere contractor. If he were an officer, thle f the Convention Convention could have no control over him ingan n of te that they should have a printer. Why? Bethat capacity; but if he were a contractor they cause, in the Convention of 116, for the formcould not annul a contract between him and a Con tion wi th o - ation of the Constitution which this Conventhe State of Indiana. To determine this ques- ti was assembled to alter and amend, there tion he would look into the decision of the court was no printer appointed; neither was there upon the subject, from which it was clear that printer to te aiorna the printer was a contractor with the State, and a Covento oeoer, it was plain that tional Convention. Moreover, it was plain that not an officer. He was, therefore, beyond the Convention o over la h - t C A t the Convention was to be governed by the laws reach of the Convention. According to theht the body into existence. They definition of the courts, the public printer was w ot bo nt powers therein precould not go beyond the powers therein preto do all the printing that was to be executed ri. A fr a p r conferred upon on account of the State of Indiana, and such Coven hewer liied o e the Convention, they were limited to the powprinting was to be paid for out of the public conferred by law. But with respect to the n ers conferred by law. But with respect to the money. power of proposition to amend the existing [Here Mr.' N. agafn read from Sections 63. [Here Mr:i N. aain read from Sections 63 Constitution, they were without limitation. As and 65, Revised Statutes, 1843, as follows:] far as everything else was concerned, with re"The prices to be paid such public printer "The prices to be pd suc public prnter spect to organization and the appropriation of are hereby established, as follows: For cornmoney, the Convention had no power beyond position, per thousand ems, plain matter, forty- wat was confeed by the act bringing the y what was conferred by the act bringing the five cents; figure work, per thousand ems, six- body intoexistence. ty-five cents; rule and figure work, per thousand ems, eighty cents; press work, per token, corm- Further, the debates of the Convention were mon forms, forty-five cents; broad sides, per to be recorded by an officer of the Legislature, token, sixty cents; folding reports and bills, per appointed by the Governor and by him comthousand copies, on each signature, (distinct missioned. Therefore, he was not accountable tables to be considered as signatures,) twelve 1 to the Convention, and they had no right to and a half cents; stitching reports and bills, direct the publication of the debates, as preper hundred copies, twenty cents. pared b the Stenographer. The Legislature "The Secretary of State shall superintend placed it in the power of the Governor to apall the printing done for the State, and see that point some suitable person for the purpose of the same is well executed, and shall measure reporting the debates of the Convention, and and estimate the same, and certify under his the Statute went on to prescribe further in this hand and the seal of his office, the amount and matter, that the Constitution, when amended, kind of work done, together with the cost; was to be deposited, with all the proceedings, which certificate shall authorize the Auditor of in the office of Secretary of State; and the Public Accounts to audit the same, and the Legislature, at some subsequent time, would Treasurer shall pay the amount out of any have thb power to control the publication theremoneys of the State in his hands not otherwise of. [He referred to sections 14 and 15 of the appropriated." act of last winter, from which he read as It became necessary for him, in the next follows:] place, to notice the powers of the Convention. "SEc. 14. The roll containing the draught The Convention could never have been called of the amended Constitution adopted by said into existence, except under the existing law Convention, and the proceedings of said Conand Constitution of the State, according to vention, shall be deposited by the President the doctrine of the Supreme Court of the Unit- and Secretary thereof in the office of the Seced States, held in the celebrated Dorr case. retary of State, who shall file the same, and In that case it was held that no Convention of cause said Constitution to be entered of record the people was legitimately a Convention, un- in his office; and said Convention may submit less it were called for some purpose, by express one or more of the amendments which they legislation, and a vote of the people. There- may propose to the Constitution, as distinct fore, in order to show the powers of this Con- propositions, to be voted upon by the people 64 separately or together, as to them may seem isfactorily audit the account of the printer whom expedient. the Convention might appoint. It was for this "SEC. 15. It shall be the duty of the Secre- reason that the Legislature reserved the right tary of State, so soon as the same is recorded to do this work by the hand of the State Printer. in his office, to deliver to the Governor of this He referred to the fact that the Convention of State a certified copy of said amended Consti- New York, which met in 1846, elected a printer tution, who shall, on the meeting of the Gen- under a law of the State, passed in 1845. The eral Assembly of this State at its next session, law calling that Convention together expressly lay the same before them and it shall be the provided for the election of a printer. The duty of the, said General Assembly to pass all printing of the Kentucky Convention was also laws necessary and proper for submitting the provided for by Statute; and the Ohio Convensame to the qualified voters for their approval tion, also, adopted the State Printer as printer to and rejection; and also for organizing the gov- that body. In fact, from all the examinations eminent under the amended Constitution, in of precedents which he had been able to make, case it should be adopted and ratified by such he had not found a single instance to support voters." the report of the committee. He confessed It was plain, then, that as far as the proceed- that his researches had been limited-very limings of the Convention were concerned, the ited-but he had not found a single instance. Legislature had reserved by law the entire con- He desired to be understood as entertaining no trol of this whole matter, after passing from personal preferences whatever, either for the the hands of the Convention. All of the de- State Printer or any other individual, desirous bates of the Convention were thus to be depos- of being elected printer; but he did not wish ited; and being thus deposited, it seemed to to see the people of Indiana taxed double for him that the Convention had no right to order work which the Legislature had already apthe printing of the proceedings by any other pointed an agent to do. He had submitted than the officer which had been provided by the these few remarks, because he was satisfied State. that, if this printing were done by any other He would now pass to another branch of the printer than Mr. J. P. Chapman, they would be question-the expediency of taking this course. paying twice for the same work, ont of the A similar question to the one now before the Treasury. Convention, had been adjudicated upon by the He would now turn to another matter. He Supreme Court, in the case of Osborn ey Cham- found in the proceedings of the General Asberlain against the State. In this case it was sembly of 1843, a law which was passed after held that State printers were contractors with the settlement of the matter between Osborn the State, and if the Legislature take the State 4' Chamberlain and the State, which was printing out of the hands of the legal contrac- enacted in order to place the subject of public tors, and place it in the hands of a third per- printing beyond all cavil thereafter. And since son, the contractors can recover in damages that time it had been required of the printer to the amount of the price of printing so ta- execute a bond for the faithful discharge of his ken away from them. The measure of the duty, within a given time. Thus carefully had damages was the value of the printing. This the Legislature reserved to themselves the powquestion had been settled. If, then, the Con- er to do all the public printing by this agent; vention had determined that they would elect describing particularly, when, and where, and another printer to do the printing of the body, how, the work should be done, and out of what they might mark his words, that no sooner than fund the agent should be paid. But now the this thing should be done, Mr. Chapman could, Convention could not vote the appropriation of by authority given to him, institute a suit one cent of money toward the payment of any against the State of Indiana, and recover to the man for this service. Then how was the printer last cent the price of all the printing of the to be paid? He was to be paid by the LegisConvention. There was no question upon this lature. But, he would ask again, upon what point. It seemed to him, with deference to the principle, and how he could receive his pay. opinion of the committee, that this matter He maintained he could not get his pay at all. could not have been investigated by them. For He had submitted these few remarks, under it was as clear to him as the noon-day, that if a sense of duty which he owed to the people another printer should be appointed by the whom he represented, and to the State at large; Convention, it would involve the State in a and, as a reason for the vote which he should double payment of the bill for printing for the give upon the final action of the body upon this Convention. And here he would again call question. He should be careful, in this matter, attention to page 170 of the Revised Statutes to avoid that course by which the Treasury of 1843, from which he had already read. might be doubly drawn upon for the same serAgain, almost all of the printing of the Con- vice. vention would have to be done after the ad- Mr. BIDDLE said, that having participated journment, so that it would be out of the power in the action of this committee, he was unwilof the President to measure the work, and sat- ling that the vote should be taken without some 65 expression of the views which governed them. so. By virtue of law, the political functions of He had hoped that some member of the commit- the State of Indiana were merely Legislative, tee better able than himself to answer the gen- Executive, and Judicial. The State spoke by tleman from Hendricks, (Mr. Nave,) would have the Legislature: she had no other voice. Her done so. But, as it seemed the question was judgment was pronounced by the Judiciary, and about tobe taken, he could not let it pass with- every other department were bound by that; out a word. He was not prepared to answer and the hand of the State was the Executive. the gentleman in the shape in which his author- But where is there to be found in either or all ities were put; nor did he think they bore at all of these departments authority to call a Conupon the question. Although the gentleman vention! Did we not understand from this fact, set out by defining the question and examining I then, that the Convention rose above all authorinto its legal bearings, it seemed to him that his ity in the State? He did not wish to be underremarks were not wholly confined to that point. stood as affirming that the Convention were Although the authority which the gentleman without the restraint of any authority; but-he quoted, might be good and binding upon the Leg- affirmed that they were bound by the authority islature, he denied that it was binding upon this of no human compact, except the Constitution Convention; nor was he prepared to adduce any of the United States, which they had all sworn authority. The gentleman, himself haddeclar- to support. He denied that the State could ed that he could find none to suit. The reason make a single letter or line, that could bind the was, that a Convention like this was not a thing action of this Convention. Neither were the of frequent occurrence-Conventions were sel- officers or the police of the Convention any part dom called, and when they were convened they of the political state. They found no place in. were so much above every other authority in the old political state. This Convention was the State, that he hardly knew where to find ithe conception, the beginning, of a new Conauthority which could bind them. He should stitution, or government, if you please, and in deny also, that any precedent, taken from the that character it necessarily rose superior to all Convention of another State, was good author- the power of human compact, except that which ity and binding upon the people of the State of its members were sworn to support. As beIndiana. Not that he would speak disrespect- tween Legislature and Legislature, the argufully of other States of this Union; but, as au- ment of the gentleman from Hendricks (Mr. thority, he would deny, in positive terms, that Nave) was probably true; but, as between the their action could be binding here. And, of Legislature and this Convention, it had no apcourse, it could not have a particle of weight plication whatever. upon a question purely of a legal character. One word more. The gentleman had stated In the committee he had voted for the report that this State Printing was involved in a conwhich was made to this body. And he still tract. That might be the case. It was not thought he was right in so voting; although the necessary to this discussion to affirm or deny subject had not received from him very mature that. He should probably incline to a different deliberation. He was convincedof the correct- opinion, but he did not care, here, whether it ness of the report by a few general reasons was considered as a contract or not. One thing which struck him so forcibly, that he had con- i was certain, that the Convention Printing was tented himself without looking particularly into not a matter of contract between the Conventhe legal authorities. j tion and Mr. Chapman. Mr. Chapman was. In this inquiry it became a material point to elected under a law enacted before this Convenascertain what was the meaning of the term tion was authorized, or even in contemplation. "the State." It had many qualifications; there How then was it possible that they could be was the Geographical state, the Topographical bound to accept of a printer elected or appointstate, the Physical state, the Political state, &c. ed when the Convention had no legal existence' He apprehended that it was the Political state We could not disturb any existing contract. Let that had made the contract, if any was made, the question be decided between Legislature and with Mr. Chapman, and to that the State Print- Legislature. One thinghe knew-the Convener must look. But he denied that this Conven- tion never made the contract for the State Printtion constituted any part of the Political State. ing, and therefore, they could not break it. It was a very different question whether one Leg- He denied that the Legislature could elect a islature could take away their printing from an printer, and bind the Convention to receive him, agent employed by a preceding Legislature, for if the Legislature could elect their Printer, from the question whether this Convention could they might also elect their President and Secdoit. It was a very different question to alledge retary. He denied that there was any power that Mr. Chapman was bound to execute the on earth that could fasten a single officer upon; printing of a legislative body, and that he was this Convention, or bind the mind of one memprinter to this Convention. It was a very differ- ber of this body. For if this could be done, it ent proposition, that the Legislature was com- would be idle to talk of theirpower to re-organpelled to give their printing to Mr. Chapman, ize the Constitution, and re-model the organic and that this Convention was compelled to do law. Such a doctrine would trammel at once, 5 66 and most effectually set at naught, the primary in the appointment; but he denied the power to rights of the people in their representative fasten a Stenographer upon this body, if they character, andalso, in their character as citizens, did not choose to accept of such an officer. to meet together and mould the government ac- Why, as he recollected, the very first thing aftbr cording to their wishes. Whenever gentlemen the organization they went to debating the quescould show that the Legislature had power to tion, whether they would accept of the services elect a Doorkeeper or Secretary for this Con- of a Stenographer. The same law of the Legvention, and compel the body to take them, then islature provided that the Convention should sit he would be willing to believe that the State in this Hall, and there was now pending a quesPrinter was Printer to the Convention. tion whether this body should not remove to some The gentleman had cited the case of the ap- other place. pointment of the Stenographer: but he denied, He hoped these remarks would not be taken in positive terms, that the Governor, however as subversive of law. It was purely a law quesmuch he respected his person and his office, and tion which was referred to the committee, and, the wisdom of the act of the Legislature author- as far as his judgement extended, it was decided izing this appointment, could appoint a Sten- judicially-not that Mr. Chapman was not a ographer whom they could be compelled to ac- < good printer, but that he was not the Printer to cept. It was the whole purpose of the act of the Convention. the Legislature to convene and organize this The gentleman's argument was more in referbody. Further than that it could not go. He ence to the right, than to the expediency, of havdenied the power of the Legislature to go fur- ing such an officer: although he went on to show ther than that; for, if they could advance but that the Convention of 1816 had no Printer. one step farther, it would be to subvert the pri- He (Mr. B.) was not arguing whether the Conmary right of the people. The moment the / vention ought to have a Printer, or whether Convention came here, as a body, they were they oughtnot. The simple question was whethendowed with power to do every thing neces- er there was a Printer already appointed that sary (in the language of the act) to their cor- the body was bound to receive as their Printer. plete organization, and hence if they wanted a But it did not seem to be hard to answer the printer they could elect him. i gentleman's notion of a contract, in this place. Mr. PETTIT [interposing, and Mr. B. giving The Supreme Court of this State had decided that way,] said, he understood the gentleman from an office considered merely as an office, was not a Cass, to say, than this body possessed sovereign contract. But'the Court did not decide that power; he desired then, to ask him, whether an office might not involve a contract. Mr. they could appropriate money? or whether they Chapman had given a bondtothe State, and what could increase or diminish their own pay! was in that bond! Why, he simply undertook Mr. BIDDLE said that was not now the ques- to do the printing for the State. His bond was tion before the Convention. analogous to the Treasurer, or Auditor's bond, Mr. PETTIT [In his seat]. It is embraced and it could not be contended for a moment that in the idea of sovereignty. these latter offices involved either the essence Mr. BIDDLE said, it would be time enough or the terms of a contract. to debate that question when it should come prop- When they come down to the question whetherly before the body. He denied that there was er Mr. Chapman was the Printer, he agreed with any power on earth that could fasten upon this the report of the committee. But whether Mr. body any of its officers. He did not say that he Chapman ought to be the Printer was another would vote against Mr. Chapman for Printer; he question. It seemed to him that he ought. But would as readily vote for Mr. Chapman as for he was arguing nothing but the legal principle, any other man, but with reference to the legal and, in doing so, he had looked only at a few question, he repeated that no power on earth broad principles; and he had seen that if the could fasten upon this body any of its officers. Convention should allow the State to interfere The moment the Convention had met, that mo- in one thing, they must necessarily have the ment they possessed the inherent power to do right to interfere in other matters, which would all reasonable things to effect the end for which be absurd. He had seen that they must contend they were called together. Even the old Con- for the right to protect themselves. The right stitution imposed no obligation here. The sum- to elect their own officers was as inherent in that moning of this Convention was a primary act of body, as the right to the air he breathed was to the people, designed to change and remould the his natural body, or as it was the right of any elementary powers of government; and this man to employ his good right arm to defendhimwas a body which could recognize no human au- self. The Convention might have as many ofthority except what was within these walls and ficers as they pleased; they might elect them belonged to the members thereof, and the Con- as they pleased, and for any purpose; and if the stltution of the United States. He looked upon Legislature should undertake to give them one the appointment of the Stenographer as a wise officer, they might give them another. The moprovision of law, and he doubted not that ment this right was conceded, there was a violathe Governor had exercised a sound discretion tion of the very first principle of self-government. 67 He did not expect there would be much differ- neither the Legislature nor that body could suence of opinion with respect to the legal ques- persede. tion; but when he came to the election, that These questions, however, were now conwas quite another question; while he remained sidered immaterial on the ground upon which in the performance of his duty as a delegate, he the gentlemen of the committee had seen prowould not consent by his vote, to shackle any per to place their report. In justice to the Tight which he considered to be inherent in the gentleman from Cass, he was willing to admit Convention. If he were arguing the question that his argument contained all that could be as to the right of one Legislature to repeal what said on that side of the question; but at the had been done by another Legislature, involv- same time he could not coincide with him in ing a matter of this kind, he should take quite the proposition, that this Convention, embodya different course. ing the sovereignty of the State, wasnot bound He desired to notice another thing. Though by the act of the Legislature, or any other pubhe could not lay his hand upon the page, he had lic body in the State. With all deference to been referred to an expression of the opinion of the gentleman, he must be permitted to say, the last Legislature upon this very subject; he that the proposition was fallacious and undid not cite this as authority; but he had been sound. told that, after the election of Mr. Chapman The Convention, according to his underlast winter, there was a resolution introduced in- standing of the matter, did not represent the to the Legislatare the substance of which was sovereignty of the State, for there was a State to confer upon Mr. Chapman the right to do the Constitution already in existence under which printing for this Convention, and that, upon the this Convention was called. The gentleman's motion of some gentleman, it was laid upon the proposition, continued Mr. Howe, can only aptable. From this it would seem that testimony ply if we go back to a chaotic state, a state could be taken from the floor of the Legislature of political disorganization, when the people itself, that they did not even pretend to fasten would have a right to assemble together either their officers upon this body. He made this ci- by themselves, if their numbers were not too tation with diffidence, and not at all as a matter great, or by their delegates, if they pleased, of authority; for there was not a particle of and form a government to suit themselves. I force in it, even if it were true. But aside from say, if that were the state of things, there would this, he would not yield to the Legislature the be some force in the gentleman's argument; right, in any manner, to raise their authority but such is not the case; we have already got above the primary act of the people; for that a Constitution which is valid and binding upon would be to restrict the popular power-the pri- us, and must continue to be so until set aside mary right of the people to establish and main- in the proper and legitimate manner. Now, tain such form of government as they may think the gentleman, in this case, is driven into a diproper. These were his views upon this ques- lemma. He is either compelled to admit that tion, hastily thrown out, and but illy digested, for the Constitution is yet in existence, or that it he had no time to put them into book shape. is not. If it be in existence, as a matter of Mr. HOWE said, he should trouble the Con- course, all legal rights that have accrued under vention with but few remarks in reference to it are valid and binding, and cannot be set aside; this question. He had been waiting to hear if it be not in existence, they run on without a from some gentleman of the committee the government. But the Constitution of the Unigrounds upon which the committee had based ted States itself, which we have sworn to suptheir report. The gentleman from Cass had port, would prohibit us from setting aside vestnow stated those grounds. This would super- ed rights. We were sworn to support the sede the necessity of arguing anew the question Constitution of the United States, and nothing arising from the construction of the act of last was said about our own Constitution. Why. winter, authorizing the call of a Convention, For the manifest reason that we have come as to the right of this Convention, under that here to revise and amend it. I say, then, that act, to elect a printer. the proposition is unfounded that we represent As gentlemen had argued, a question might the sovereignty of the State. As there is a arise whether the printer was to be regarded as Constitution already in existence, those rights an officer or a contractor. It was clear to his that have been acquired under it are binding mind, that he ought to be considered a contract- upon us. We are the mere delegates of the or. That he possessed none of the elements people, assembled here, not to make an original of an officer, and was therefore only a contract- Constitution, as though none were now in exor, and if a contractor the question was, what istence, for we have a government, a Constituwas the subject matter of his contract? How tion, and we have a code of laws and public offar did it extend? Why, clearly, to all the ficers that have been brought into existence printing of the State. It was all required to under it. All these are valid and binding upon be done by the very nature of the bonds which us, and all that we have to do is to alter or he had given, and those bonds for the perform- amend the organic law of the State. We have ance of his duty, constituted a contract, which no more authority than a set of commissioners, 68 whether consisting of one hundred and fifty hands of the Legislature were not tied by themen or a dozen, or even a smaller number, old Constitution, the Constitution had nothing having a specific duty to perform. So, at the to do with it. It had vested in the Legislature time when it was considered necessary to re- the power to pass a law to organize this Convise the old code of laws, two gentlemen were vention by the election of delegates. Such appointed as commissioners for that purpose. was my opinion, and [ entertain that opinion What power had they? They had power to at the present moment, that the law, so far as write out a new code and submit it to the Leg- it extends beyond the mere assembling of the islature. So we are here for the purpose of Convention, is nothing more nor less than surrevising the Constitution, and submitting that plusage. For instance, we see clearly that the revised Constitution to the people. We have powers delegated in the old Constitution-the assembled here by virtue of an act of the Legis- one adopted in 1816-gave to the Legislature lature. We have not assembled under the no other right than to provide a law to organConstitutional provision, which requires that ize the Convention. That is the whole extent the Constitution shall be remodeled every of the authority which the Legislature possestwelve years; but under an act of the Legis- ses. The moment we become organized under lature. We therefore acknowledge the au- the law, I hold, with the gentleman from Cass, thority of the Legislature. We have no right that we transcend every law except the Federto disavow its authority. We are morally and al Constitution. That only is binding upon us. legally estopped from setting aside the act un- We are here to consult the interests of the der which we are assembled, either in whole people, and it is one of our chief duties to avoid or in part. We must acknowledge its authori- a profuse expenditure of the public money. It ty. We are, then, mere delegates, under the is our duty to practice the most rigid economy, authority of the Legislature, assembled here for not only for the sake of the immediate intereststhe purpose of revising the Constitution, which, of the people, but for the sake of the example when revised, is to be submitted to the people, that we shall thus set. So far as the selection and if they are satisfied with it, our work will of a Printer is concerned, I have no particular be approved, otherwise it will have no validity, choice. I have the best of feeling towards the So far as the appropriation of money is con- present State Printer, and I believe he ought to cerned, we have no power to act. We have be selected, provided he will do the work as only the power to spend what has been appro- well and at the same prices as other printers; priated for us. And in my judgment, we have and I am informed that he has procured the mano right to go beyond the amount which has terials and is prepared to do the work, but I been appropriated by the Legislature for our contend that if he does do it he must be apuse; and if we do go beyond the amount so pointed by us-his power must come from this appropriated, we shall be at the mercy of the body, But it is suggested to me that there are next Legislature to make good the deficiency. printers in this place who will do the printing Thus we are morally and legally estopped from for twenty-five per cent. less than the prices denying the binding force of the act of the now paid to the State Printer; if so, I desire Legislature upon us, and this, I think, shows that the work shall be done by them. Mr. the fallacy of the gentleman's proposition. Steele added, that he should vote in favor of Mr. STEELE said, that having had some- the report of the committee, and he should give thing to do with the report which was now be- that vote, not from any feeling in regard to any fore the Convention, he desired to say a very printer, but from an honest conviction that the few words in relation to it. He concurred en- conclusion at which the committee had arrived,. tirely in the views of the gentleman from Cass. was the correct and proper conclusion. The sentiments which that gentleman had announced to the Convention, had impressed Mr. BASCOM said, he did not rise to make themselves upon his mind from the first intro- a speech upon this question, but he could not rethemselves upon his mind from the first intro-ist the inclination he felt to say a few or, duction into the Legislature of the law author-t the nntn e fe o say fewords, izing this Convention when he saw gentlemen who were foremost in uing the canv, said Mr. Steele, and be- debate upon almost every unimportant question, During the canvass, said Mr. Steele, and before I announced myself a candidate for election, as soon as a question came u upon which some lfore ptI ann oedmysf a jornddal; form lciounty talent might be displayed, sitting as mum as the a large portion of the journals of m countaughter.) represented to the people that I was ineligible te r r. (age r Te o to a seat in this Convention, for the reason that question, said Mr. B., resolves itself into this: I held the petty office of Recorder. I called The patronage of this Convention is to be given their attention to so much of the act of the Leg- to a printer, and gentlemen here who are aspiislature as provides for the eligibility of any ring to higher places, are afraid to show their person who possesses the right of suffrage-the hands. (Renewed laughter.) right to vote for a member of the Convention. The PRESIDENT. It is not in order to alThey produced the old Constitution,which pro- lude to the motives of gentlemen. hibits any one from holding two lucrative offices Mr. BASCOM. I do not impugn the motives at one time. And in reply, I asserted that the of any gentleman. 69 The PRESIDENT. The Chair would ask-the idefend all suits that may arise, as well as those Ventleman to explain what he does mean. in which the State is engaged at the time of his Mr. BASCOM. I mean, sir, that there are gen- appointment3 You have a Secretary of State tiemen here who give us their views very freely- and you impose certain duties upon him. Shall in regard to unimportant matters, such as the he only perform those duties which existed when appointment of a doorkeeper, but when a legal he was elected, or shall he perform all the duquestion of any importance arises, we are not ties that belong to that department? You have favored with their opinions. Well sir, the whole already called upon the Secretary of State to question is precisely this, who shall do the print- perform services, and you may yet have occaing for this Cn tionvention Now when I am call- sion to call upon him to perform other services. ed upon to vote upon this question I want to vote You may have occasion to call upon the Audiunderstandingly, and I hope therefore, to be fa- tor, and upon the Treasurer for reports. Shall vored with the opinion of those who have some we say that it is necessary for us to elect all legal knowledge. I was glad to hear the gen- those officers, because we have occasion to avail tieman from Cass express his opinion. He did so, ourselves of their services? Will you turn Mr. fearlessly, and in the main I agree with him. I Test out of doors and'put another man in posdo not think that we are bound by any law in session of the Record and Seal of the State beregard to the appointment of our officers, but if cause you came here with sovereign authority. I am wrong on this point I wish to be better in- I believe that no man will go so far as that, yet formed by legal gentlemen before I am called you tell me that because you require certain ser-.upon to vote. vices to be rendered by the printer, it is necesMr. PETTIT said, he had no desire to detain sary that you should elect him. You want the the Convention with any remarks, but if the printer to send in here certain printed matter, gentleman over the way had any allusion to him, therefore, you must elect him. But you also want in the remark that he had made, he had a word the Secretary of State to furnish you with copies to say in reply. Sir, said Mr. P., I am very far of documents,you must therefore elect him as from holding that this Convention possesses en- well as the other. tire sovereignty. We sit here with limited pow- If the present State Printer should fail to be ers. We were called together for a specific in readiness to perform the work required by this purpose, and I maintain that the only point in Convention,there is no doubt he would be liable which we have unlimited power is that of mak- on his bond for the non-performance of his duty ing propositions. We have unlimited power to to the State. Sir, we are not above the State propose to the people of Indiana a form of gov- of Indiana; we are not above the Legislature of ernment, an organic law, which, if adopted by the State, and let me say to gentlemen, that if the people, shall be the basis of their future the people can at any time, resolve themselves'government; that is all the power that we have. into a Convention for the construction of a new How would it operate if we conceive ourselves form of government, they may also draw the occupying a different position. sword and perpetrate revolution whenever they If we can elect our printer, then he must be please. I know it is argued that might gives an officer of this body, but it is contended right, and in that view all communities have the that he is not an officer, because he is not re- right to assemble in Convention, turn out old -quired to take an oath of office. If then the officers and elect new, but thatis not the Amerprinter be not an officer of the Convention, we ican idea. The idea is that one Government have no power under the law to elect such a grows out of another as naturally as the new person, for we have only power to elect our offi- shoot grows from the seed that is planted. This cers, the law clearly contemplating the Secre- doctrine was most ably canvassed in the great tary, Doorkeeper, Sergeant-at-Arms, &c.; these case of Rhode Island alluded to by the gentleman officers we have to elect, but the printer is en- from Hendricks. I happened to hear the arguployed by contract. Well, sir, I fully concur ments in that case in the Supreme Court. The with the gentleman from Hendricks, that the issue was directly brought up as to the validity printer is a contractor and not an officer, and of the Dorr government, and it was argued with that as such we have no power to interfere with reat plausibility that the people possessing the his contract; but we are sitting here to propose original sovereignty, have a right to resolve to the people of the State to set the old Con- themselves into a new form of government, and stitution aside and adopt a new one in its stead. to abolish the old, without any preliminary steps Sir, if we consider him either as an officer or a having been taken by the old government. The contractorwe have no power:over him. It is said Supreme Court denied this doctrine in the roundthat we have power to elect all our officers, and est terms. They held that even a majority of our printer among the rest; but how will that the people of Rhode Island could not have put tally with a proposition of this kind. The At- in force any such government. torney General for your State is an officer of the Well sir, let me ask the gentleman from Cass, State. Is it necessary to appoint a new Attorney by what authority are we privileged from arrestGeneral for every set of cases that may arisel Or Are we, as members of this Convention, privishall that officer be at liberty to prosecute and leged from arrest or notl I perceive that the 70 law provides that we shall be privileged from from the printing of the Convention, cannot arrest to the same extent that members of the exceed seven hundred and fifty dollars, and it Legislature are. Now, without that provision of does seem to me that that is a matter not Worth the law, how could we avoid the ordinary or a great dealof scrambling after. Sir, I am glad usual arrest of our persons here! We are not of the opportunity which is accorded me in the the Parliament of Great Britain, we are not the debate, of avowing my opinions upon the subCongress of the United States, nor are we the ject. They explain the vote that I shall give. I Legislature of Indiana, in all of which exemp- shall vote against concurring in the report, betion from arrest prevails. lieving that a printer is provided for us. Nor Mr. BIDDLE. I do not deny that as citi- do I agree with the gentleman as to the apzens we are not liable to arrest, but I deny pointment of another officer. I mean the Stethat by virtue of being members of such a body nographer, who was appointed to report the deas this, we would necessarily be privileged from bates of this Convention. And, I ask, is it in arrest. As citizens we are exempt by the law our power to reject this officer! I hold that we of the State. have no such power. The Legislature created Mr. PETTIT. I know, as citizens, we are that office, and the Governor commissioned the exempt by the law of last winter. But I will officer. It is not for us to remove him. We put this question: Suppose we pass a resolu- cannot even enquire into his right to hold oftion declaring that members of this body shall fice. I will put a case: Suppose the Legislabe exempt from arrest, not only to the extent ture had said that the Governor should appoint that members of the Legislature are, but further. an individual to sit here from nine o'clock in the Is there any judge or lawyer in this room who morning until nine o'clock in the evening, and would hesitate for a moment to say, that such keep a vigilant eye upon our proceedings, and an act of ours would be a nullity, as transcend- take down, in Stenographic notes, every articuing our authority? If we had not been privi- late sound that was uttered. Could they not leged by law, we could not privilege ourselves. have done so! It appears to me they could, We might by force protect ourselves from ar- and that we would have no right to interpose. rest, but it would be a lawless act. There can The Legislature directed the Governor to apbe no question that we are amenable to all the point and commission a Stenographer; the Govlaws that are in force in this State. We can ernor did so, and he is as necessarily a portion neither make nor suspend the operation of any of this Convention as any man on this floor, law. If we can do that we can just as well and we have no power to remove him if we deorder ourselves to be paid six dollars a day, or sired to do so, except for such cause as I will any other sum we please. The present Con- not suppose will ever occur, namely, disturbstitution of the State provides that money shall ance or disorder, on the part of that gentleman; not be drawn from the Treasury, except in ac- but in such case only, would we be at liberty to cordance with an appropriation made by law, expel him or any other officer of this Convenand it is the same Constitution under which we tion. I take it that we sit here, as I have said, are living, for our meeting here has not abro- with limited powers in all respects, except one — gated it. Can it be said then, for a moment, we have the unlimited power of making propthat we are without the shield, the protection of ositions. But who pretends that we can adopt the Constitution of the State of Indiana! No a Constitution, and make it binding upon the one, surely, will entertain such an idea, or un- people of this State, without their concurrence. dertake to enforce it. The same Constitution Is is not provided that our work shall be subsays too, that no law shall be made, abrogating mitted to the people? Can we revoke that proor impairing the validity of contracts. Mr. vision and enforce obedience tothe instrument Chapman is at present the State Printer. He we may frame? No one will pretend it. Yet entered into a contract to do all the printing of if we had the Sovereignty that it is alleged we the State. Shall we, a body sitting in accord- possess, we could unquestionably do this. No ance with the command of the Legislature, un- Sir; we have been sent here to devise a plan or dertake to do that which those who created us form of Government, to be submitted to the could not do! Is the agent greater than the people, to be by them decided upon, and it will principal! Is thecreated greater than the crea- be for them to determine whether they will risk tor! Yet the doctrine is propounded here, and their fortunes and their future lives under it, argued with some degree of assurance, that we or not. should take upon ourselves to impair the obliga- Mr. NILES said, that as a mere abstract tion of a contract. question of law, he thought the report of the Now I have made these remarks at the sug- committee correct. It might be most proper to gestion of the gentleman over the way, and at- employ the State Printer to do their printing, ter, it seems to me, that every gentleman here but he did not think that he was necessarily had said every thing he desired to say. I dis- and ex officio printer to the Convention. He claim any thing like feeling in regard to this did not claim that the Convention was above question. I am told by those who are entitled law or could disregard the act under which it. to respect, that the entire profit to be derived was called into existence. With the gentleman 71 from Tippecanoe, (Mr. Pettit) he concurred in appointed a board of commissioners to look after the argument of Mr. Webster, and the opinion any of the public interests, with the same disof the Supreme Court of the United States, in cretionary powers which the act under which we the case of Dorr, that under what may be cal- are convened, confers upon us. And suppose led the American political system, changes in that board were now in session here or elsethe form of a government cannot be effected where, and in need of the services of a printer, by violence. While he sympathized with pro- is it not clear that they could employ one or angress and reform, he deprecated revolutions; and other at their discretion? If such a body could, he was glad to know that were anything of the so can we. kind attempted, not only the people, but the The gentleman from Tippecanoe asks whethcourts, would place their seal of condemnation er we propose to dismiss the Secretary of State, upon it. He admitted that had the Legislature and other State officers, and employ other perdesignated the person by whom or pointed out sons in their stead. I answer, that they are the manner in which, their (the Convention's) doubtless the proper persons at the seat of govprinting should be done, it ought to be conclu- ernment with whom we should communicate as sive. occasion requires. If we need information from The gentleman from Tippecanoe-continued the clerks and auditors of the various counties, Mr. Niles-insists that we were bound to employ it is unquestionably proper to apply for it the State Printer, merely because he is a State through the proper State officers. But we officer; and inquires whether we have power to might in our discretion, employ other persons to increase our own pay, as if the answer to that procure such information, and make them cornquestion settled the other point. But I answer, pensation for their services. Mr. N. thought we have no such power, simply because our rate this a matter perhaps of little practical imporof compensation has been fixed by the Legisla- tance, but he was inclined to concur in the ture. We have no discretion on that subject. opinion expressed in the report. But we are allowed the widest discretion upon Mr. HOLMAN remarked, that in order to many subjects, including the incidental expens- arrive at a satisfactory adjustment of the queses. The twelfth section of the act providing tion, it should first be decided whether the for the call of this Convention, in part reads State printer was really an officer of the State, thus: "The members of said Convention shall or not. By referring to the Revised Statutes, receive three dollars per day while actually at- page 100, it would be found that the election tending upon the sittings of said Convention, by a viva voce vote was there provided for by and shall be allowed the like compensation for law, of a prosecuting attorney, a State Printer, their travel as members of the General Assem- and other officers. Thus, there was a direct bly are allowed by law; and their secretaries, provision of law under which this officer was officers, and attendants shall be paid the same elected. He was an officer of the State-so compensation as the officers of the General As- recognized by the law of the State. He took sembly of this State are paid for similar services; it for granted then, that if this State Printer which pay together with the pay of a compe- was an officer of the State, they must look at tent stenographer to report the debates; which the law providing for his election, to ascertain stenographer shall be appointed by the Gover- the purpose of the Legislature in his election. nor for that purpose, with the other expenses of If he was elected for a specific purpose, why the Convention, shall be certified by the presi- then, in the exercise of the power delegated to dent of the Convention, and shall be paid by him, he must be confined within the limits prethe Treasurer of this State, on the warrant of scribed by the Legislature. Itwould be observed, the Auditor of Public Accounts." Now sup- on referring to the Revised Code, that this pose we should employ additional clerks and officer was to be elected' triennially, and that direct them to make duplicates of papers, to be among other things it was provided that he distributed upon the desks of members, would should discharge the duty of printing for the not the expense be paid on the order of the Pres- State. In connection with this provision, there ident? We might, in this way, supersede any were two other sections stipulating as to the absolute necessity for a Printer. So, I appre- manner in which the work should be done. hend, we may employ any printer we choose, to The only question to be decided then, was, do the same work, or we may let it out to the what was the design of the Legislature in creatlowest bidder. I do not conceive that this Con- ing the office of State Printer? As he had vention is in any sense the State, as that term before said, the Revised Statutes prescribed the is used in the law relative to a State Printer. duties of this officer, viz.: that he should execute Neither would our entire population, if now as- the printing of the two Houses of Assembly sembled en masse to remodel their organic law, and of the principal officers of the State-but be the State in any such sense. It is the gov- nowhere was it stated that his duties extended ernment proper which representsthe State, and any further. The office of State Printer it is the printing for that government, which the was created seven years ago, and the duties that State Printer is appointed to do. devolved upon him were clearly laid down by Suppose the Legislature at its last session, had the State Legislature. Inasmuch, then, as the -printing of this Convention was not then con- to exercise fully and fearlessly the power intemplated, and no provision had been made for vested in him. the printing of the Convention in the routine There were one or two facts having a bearing of duties prescribed to the State Printer, it upon the question before them, to which he must undoubtedly be concluded that the print- would briefly allude. In the State of Ohio, the ing of that Convention was not a part of the Legislature had passed an act convening the duties of the State Printer, prescribed to him Convention that had assembled there to revise by the State. the State Constitution-similar in effect to the Mr. FOSTER said, that as it was his inten- act authorizing the assembling of this Convention tovoteto concurin the report ofthe commit- tion. When the question came up before that tee he should briefly give the reasons that influ- Convention upon the election of a State Printenced him in pursuing such a course. Being er, what did they do! [Mr.F. here quoted from no lawyer, he would not attempt to reply to the proceedings and debates of the Ohio Conthe legal arguments of the gentleman from vention at some length, to prove that the State Hendricks, (Mr. Nave,) who had spoken in op- Printer there was elected Printer to the Convenposition to the report of the committee. But, tion, not because he was the State Printer, but with all due deference to the opinions of gen- from the fact that the Democratic party had a tlemen who had spoken, he must be permitted majority in the Convention, and also because to say, on the present occasion, that he differed they knew him to be a good printer. An exwith them materially in regard to the rights and press provision was made in the stipulation enpowers of this Convention. For one, he did tered into with him, that the printing should be not consider this Convention as a mere creature done at fair and reasonable rates, those rates of the Legislature, although such an opinion being clearly defined.] They thus elected their had been advanced in certain public prints of own Printer, and he contended that this Conthis city and elsewhere, and also by members vention had a similar right. Some gentleman. of the Convention. He regarded the Legisla- however, had said, that they could not annul the ture as one of the agents of the people of the contract made with Mr. Chapman. This stateState of Indiana, and an agent, too, which, in ment he would emphatically deny. An examestablishing all the forms that preceded the pie of high authority was to be found in the election of the Delegates to the Convention, case of Blair & Rives, who were formerly printonly acted in accordance with the will of the ers to the United States Senate, and who had sovereign people. In like manner this Conven- a contract made at one session of the Senate retion was an agent of the people. He had been scinded at the succeeding session of that body. greatly amused on reading the act of the Leg- Yet Blair & Rives did not attempt to sue for islature with regard to the Convention, to ob- damages. In connection with this point, he serve the condescension with which they pro- would read the opinion of a legal gentleman vided that the Convention might elect a presi- who, with all due deference to the learned gendent, and such other officers as they deemed tlemen around him, had not his superior-if he proper. Why sir, said he, this Convention had his equal-upon that floor; he referred to possesses the inherent power of electing all Judge Hitchcock of the Supreme Court of Ohio. its officers, a public printer among their num- [Mr. F. here read from the debates of the ber. Ohio Convention, a summary of Judge HitchThe celebrated case of Dorr had been cited cock's views upon the question of the election by the gentleman from Hendricks, (Mr. Nave,) of a Printer to the Convention. Judge H's poto sustain by inference, the position he had sition was, that the Convention was authorized taken, that the Legislature exercised a supreme to make use of a certain sum of money for the controlling power over a Convention chosen by expenses of the Convention, and as they could the people. He could not but think that gen- not get along without having a printer they had tlemen had misapprehended the celebrated de- the right to elect a printer, and compensate him cision of the Supreme Court on that point, be- out of the contingent fund from which were decause the point they sought to sustain was not frayed the other expenses of the Convention.] taken into consideration by that Court. Gen- Thus, continued Mr. F., I have given some of tlemen would not contend for a moment that the the reasons that will influence me to vote for adherents of Dorrhad assembled peacefully and the report of the committee. Common sense lawfully in Convention. Yet had not the peo- teaches me that we derive our power directly pie of Indiana assembled peaceably and lawful- from the people, and that we, as members of this ly, and sent Delegates here to revise the Con- Convention, are delegates of the people. Why, stitution. The Dorrites in Rhode Island were sir, it it a common thing to be elected a member in a state of anarchy; they were revolutionists. of the Legislature, but it is an uncommon thing Not so with the action of the people of Indiana to be elected a delegate to a Convention raised in raising this Convention. They had invested for the purpose of revising a State Constitution. them, as a Convention, with the power of re- Here are assembled able and learned gentlemen vising the Constitution, and, for one, he, as a from various parts of the State, who, I doubt Delegate from the people of Monroe, intended not, would reject with contempt the offer of be 73 ing made a rheiiber of a body that met once a made the few but necessary amendments thereyear to enact laws for the "dear lpeople." to, as asked for or contemplated by the people. (Laughter.) Here ae assembled grave congress- Mr. WOLFE said, that it did appear to him, mn- and learned judges who have been rustica- that they should endeavor to fix upon some plan ting for a season, and who have now come here for proceeding at once to the revision of the to give us the benefitof their more matured wis- Constitution. He took it for granted thatit was dom, and their great legislative experience. generally understood by the members, that the With regard to the arguments of gentlemen people desired but few amendments made to the on this floor, who have endeavored to obtain the present Constitution. He conceived that there election of the present State Printer as Printer to was great danger to be apprehended that they this Convention, I must say, briefly,in reply, they would do too much, and it should be borne in cannot come it over me. Their efforts put me mind that if there were too many amendments in mind of an incident that occurred in the town made to the Constitution, when it went back to of Augusta some years since, when there were the people it might be rejected. The Convennot so many temperance men or temperance so- tion might alter and amend the Constitution as cieties as there are now. It was customary they pleased, but the people were not bound to there, when an individual wished another to accept it thus altered. From the course that drink with him, to say, "Come, won't you go had already been pursued in the Convention, -it I" A gentleman, on the point of graduating he was afraid that the great struggle was not to had got in the habit of "going it" at rather an simplify the proposed amendments to the Consextensive rate; at the same time, he was pay- titution; but to secure the prominent positions ing his addresses to a very amiable and sprightly in the Convention so as to obtain the praise of young lady, a resident of the town. This young the people. Perhaps these gentlemen who gentleman, as I remarked, got in the habit of were attempting to do so much would find upon going it," and while in full career, he graduat- returning to their constituents that they would ed at the college. After graduating, reflecting be blamed in proportion to their labors. If they that he had been courting the young lady for took up each article of the Constitution and act-:some time, he thought he would pop the ques- ed upon it section by section, in regular order, tion. So one day, with a palpitating heart, and they would know what was done as they went with all due ceremony, he put the interesting along, and when they came to the end of the arquery, "Will you have me " " Ah! Billy, tides they could add such as were necessary. Billy, Billy," replies the young lady, "while you Mr. STEVENSON moved to amend the res-'go it' you can't'come it.'" (Great laughter.) olution offered by the gentlemen from Putnam, Notwithstanding all that gentlemen have said, as follows: I have only to reply, that they can't "come it" That the Convention will on each day at 2 over me. (Laughter.) o'clock, commencing on to-morrow, go into comThe question being taken on concurring in mittee of the whole to consider the Constitution the report, of Indiana and take it up by articles and by It was decided in the affirmative. sections, until they have gone through with it." So the report was concurred in. Mr. S. said he was not willing to disturb the After the presentation of various petitions, on present order of business-an order which had motion, been formed by committees appointed for that The Convention adjourned until to-morrow purpose and had been adopted by the Convenmorning at 9 o'clock. tion. Nevertheless, he was inclined to think that this suggested order could be adopted without interfering with the arrangements already made. In the forenoon the Convention could TUESDAY, OCT. 15, 1850. act upon the resolutions that had been referred to committees. In the afternoon they might The Convention met pursuant to adjourn- take up the Constitution section by section and ment, and was opened with prayer by the Rev. examine it. They could thus ascertain the sense Mr. MYERS. of the Convention in regard to the character of After several resolutions had been read and the new Constitution, for he had no doubt that referred, a large majority of the Convention had deterMr. WOLFE of Sullivan offered the follow- mined what kind of a Constitution was necesing preamble and resolution. sary. This could readily be done if the ConvenWHEREAS, the people of the State of Indiana, tion resolved itself into commictee of the whole. in calling this Convention, did not intend to The propositions that were there recommended, abolish but to amend the present Constitution, and agreed upon could in Convention be referand the Convention being now fully organiz- ed to the appropriate committees, by them to be. ed; therefore engrafted in the article of the new Constitution. Resolved, That the Convention now proceed There was no use in keeping the Convention,to take up the Constitution, article by article, there all day receiving mere resolutions of enand section by section, until it shall have quiry. They gave no indications of the sense 74 of the Convention, but left them just where they call of the yeas and nays appended, if it was were before. not passed, he for one was not afraid of taking Mr WOLFE accepted the amendment of the the responsibility of having his name appear to gentleman from Putnam, and the resolution as his constituents in the list of nays. Was it to amended lies over one day under the rule. be supposed for a moment that any member of Mr. PETTIT moved to make the resolution of- that Convention would change the vote he infered by him on the subject of Grand Juries, tended to give upon this question merely bethe special order for 10 o'clock A. M., on Mon- cause that vote was to appear on the journal? day next,- He believed not. But there was a proposition Which was decided in the affirmative, contained in that resolution which had already STATE PRINTER been decided in the negative. That proposition was to elect an officer of the Convention by resMr. BORDEN moved that the State Printer olution. This had been attempted with referbe designated as the Printer to this Convention. ence to the election of their President, but had He remarked that he did not propose, after signally failed. the long and able discussion upon the subject of Mr. BORDEN (interposing). All that I dethe printing of the Convention that had taken sired by my resolution was to relieve those memplace on yesterday, to detain the Convention with bers of the Convention who favor its object, any lengthy remarks of his own. from the responsibility which will attach to His object in offering this resolution was sim- every gentleman who votes against it. ply that an opportunity might be offorded for en- Mr. GRAHAM enquired what responsibility tering their names upon the journal, so that it would attach to gentlemen if they thus voted! might be known to their constituents who it was Mr. BORDEN replied, that if the contract that took upon themselves the responsibility of for the printing of the Convention was taken taking the contract for the printing of the Con- from the present State Printer, an additional vention, from the State Printer, thereby subject- sum might be taken from the treasury to pay for ing the State, to the alternative of paying twice the work twice, and upon returning home their for the same work. constituents would desire to know who took upIt would be recollected by gentlemen that on themselves the responsibility of this extra. Messrs. Osborn & Chamberlain, formerly prin- expense. ters to the Legislature, owing to a similar vio- Mr. CHAPMAN objected to the resolution, lation of contract, recovered some eight hun- stating that it would represent him as being in dred or one thousand dollars damages. He ap- an attitude which he did not wish to occupy. He prehended that the only question at issue was had already been placed in a false position. in whether they should pay twice for the same some respects, and did not wish to be gibbetwork, and such a course he regarded as unjust ed before the community. Personally, so far and derogatory to the interests of their constitu- as he was pecuniarly interested, he was indifferents. If authority to sue the State was asked of ent how the matter was decided; but the genthe Legislature it could notrefuse the right to car- tleman could better attain the object which he ry it forward, and he was satisfied that judgment sought by moving a reconsideration of the forcould be obtained against the State. By refer- mer vote, instead of pressing his present resoluring to the proceedings of the New York Con- tion. vention, held in 1821, it would be seen that a Mr. BORDEN said, if the gentleman from resolution similar to the one he had offered was Marion desired it, he had no objection to having there presented in order to arrive at a settlement it withdrawn. of the question. The resolution thus present- The resolution was accordingly withdrawn. ed was adopted. If any gentleman wished to REFERENCE OF THE CONSTITUTION. strike out the name of Mr. Chapman and in- REFERENCE OF THE CONSTITUTION. sert the name of some other person, it couldea- Mr. FOSTER offered the following resolusily be done, and then the record upon the Jour- tion, nal could testify who had taken upon themselves Resolved, That the Constitution be committhe responsibility of depriving Mr. Chapman ted to a committee of the whole, and made the of the contract. order of the day for Thursday, at 2 o'clock. Mr. GRAHAM of Warrick observed, that Mr. PETTIT objected to the Convention gothe gentleman from Allen (Mr. Borden) did ing into committee of the whole on the old Connot argue the propriety of the adoption of the stitution. If they went into that committee resolution, but simply stated that it was offered they could not refer any subject to any other for the purpose of showing by the yeas and committee. No one would contend that in one nays who would take upon themselves the re- i committee they could refer a subject to another. sponsibility of voting against Mr. Chapman. The course that should be pursued was to take Now,he had voted for Mr. Chapman to be State | up the Constitution in Convention and read it Printer, and he might do so again; but when a i section by section, and as each section wasread, resolution was brought forward declaring him I move its reference to an appropriate committee. Printer to the Convention with the threat of a The standing committees would then have be 75 fore them each portion of the old Constitution, into the committee of the whole as seldom as and all the imperative resolutions that had been possible. referred, and would be prepared to proceed with He had been much pleased with the sensithe work of drafting the articles of the new ble resolution and remarks of the gentleman Constitution. from Sullivan (Mr. Wolfe) that morning, with He would move to amend the gentleman's reference to the action of the Convention upon motion by striking out all after the enacting the Constitution. He believed if the gentleman clause, and inserting, "That at 2 o'clock on to- had made his suggestion last week, before any morrow the Convention will take up the present order of business was decided upon, its adoption Constitution of this State, and read it by sec- would have saved the Convention a great deal tions, and as each section is read it shall be re-of labor, and the State considerable expense. ferred to the appropriate committees." If, instead of having those committees, the ConThe question being upon the adoption of the vention had taken the old Constitution and apamendment offered by the gentleman from Tip- pointed a committee on each article as they went pecanoe, (Mr. Pettit,) along, the work of revision and amendment Mr. DOBS, he s d tt al would have been carried on more speedily, and MZr. DOBSON said, he supposed that all the with less confusion than in the present stragresolutions offered that morning would have to wth less con ion than in the present stragbe recorded on the journal, thus increasing great- He dd ot know whether they ly the labor of the Secretaries, and also the ex-could retrace their steps and commence anew or pense of their printing, for every resolution not; perhaps some ntleman would offer an amendment to that effect. that was referred had to be printed and paid for. Mr. REED of Monroe sugested, that after Now, in committee of the whole, this extra expense and labor would be saved. No jour- the committees had reported upon the subjects nalizing was done in that committee. They referred to them then it would be an appropri could not refer resolutions or amendments to ate tlme for the Convention to go into commitother committees while in committee of the tee of the whole. He presumed that in three or whole, but they could agree upon certain refer- four days after the reference of the Constitution ences, and when they came back into Conven- and resolutions to them, some of the committees tion the Chairman would report that the com- would be able to report. mittee of the whole had had certain references and The question was then taken upon the amendamendments under consideration, and on mo-ment offered by the gentlemanfrom Tippecanoe tion they could be referred to appropriate com-(Mr. Pettit) to the resolution offered by the genmittees. It could all be embodied in a few lines tleman from Monroe, (Mr. Foster,) and it was at a great saving of expense. concurred in; and the resolution as amended was adopted. Mr. FOSTER confessed he was very much Several other resolutions having been read astonished at the singular acuteness of the ar-and referred gument of the gentleman from Tippecanoe (Mr. On motion, the Convention adjourned until 2 Pettit). It had always been customary in leg-o'clock P. M. islative bodies, with any public document that was intended to be distributed and acted upon, as for instance the Governor's or President's AFTERNOON SESSION. message, after the standing committees were PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES. appointed, to go into committee of the whole Mr. MAGUIRE moved to take from the upon it. And he thought it rather discourteous table the resolution upon the subject of the that the glorious old Constitution under which publication of the proceedings and debates they had lived so long and so happily, and pros- of the Convention in the newspapers, reported pered so greatly, should be treated with not half from the select committee on that subject, on so much respect as a common Governor's mes- Wednesday last. sage that was delivered every year. They had The motion was agreed to, and the resolution met there for the purpose of amending the Con- was accordingly taken up and read by the Secstitution, and now that the committees were or- retary. ganized, he contended it was altogether parlia- Mr. MAGUIRE moved to strike out from the mentary to go into committee of the whole resolution so much as related to postage. lie upon it. considered that those who received the papers Mr. RITCHEY remarked, that he had the should at least pay the postage. He had enquirhonor of a seat in the Legislature, and from his ed of the city Post Master, and had been informexperience in that body on the subject, he was ed that the packages would be sent without benot very favorable to the committee of the whole. ing pre-paid, if put up and sent from the offices He regarded it a useless waste of time for the of publication, where members could send the Convention to resolve itself into that committee. proper direction, and they would as certainly go The discussions that arose during its sessions to their proper destination as if directed and sent would be repeated over and over again in the by members themselves. And in this way the sessions of the Convention. He preferred going expense would fall where it should; those who 76 received the benefit of the papers and documents policy for the Convention to keep their conwould pay the postage. The postage was a stituents in suspense any longer as to what they large item. It would be some thirteen hundred were doing. Every gentleman, he had no doubt, dolTars of the amount of expenditure proposed had answered the inquiries of the people, telby the committee. He hoped it would bestrick- ling them that they certainly should know what en out. the Convention was about; and if it was ever The PRESIDENT remarked, that the amend- intended to pass the resolution, it really seemed vnent of the gentleman was not now in order. to him that it would be better to do so at once. When the resolution was laid on the table the It would be better for their constituents, if not other day, there was pending an amendment for themselves. For gentlemen could not be proposed by the gentleman from Dubois, (Mr. supposed to be without information, from day Edmonston,) and there was also pending an to day, of what they themselves were about. amendment to the amendment proposed by the But they had been postponing this matter from gentleman from Franklin (Mr. Shoup). day to day without the intervention of any matMr. MAGIJIRE said, that he was not aware ter, making it necessary that the subject should that there was any amendment pending. lie over. And how the gentleman from SwitThe question was taken on Mr. SHOUP'S zerland (Mr. Kelso) asked for a further postamendment to the amendment, to-wit: "To ex- ponement of the subject-and for what? For tend the same offer to all the local press; and it nothing more than to give some importance to was rejected. a mere freak about moving the Convention to The question then recurred upon the adoption some other point! Was business of importance of Mr. EDMONSTON'S amendment. to be deferred in this manner upon a mere hyMr. KELSO said, he hoped the amendment pothesis t Should the transaction of important would not prevail. If the Convention proposed business be made to depend upon the continto strike out any thing, let them strike out such gency whether the Convention might or might papers as could notpublish the whole of thepro- not go to Madison 1 It did seem to him that ceedings. The proposition to take three papers such a consideration should never weigh so wasnot forthe purpose of advisingthe people what much as a single ounce in value upon any man's the Convention was doing, but for the purpose vote. It would be time enough to act upon the of advising them fully of the reasons for what Madison proposition, when it should make its was done through the medium of arguments ad- appearance. That proposition would come up vanced here, to preserve which an officer had to be voted upon in due time; whether it were been employed at a heavy expense. Two of wise or not he did not pretend to decide, nor those papers were daily papers, and they propos- would he say that he would not vote for it. But ~ed to publish the debates in full; and it was he would say to the Convention that they should proposed that the Convention should subscribe not lay over business of importance, on account for five copies of these papers for each member. of such a question, for it was a small matter Three other papers embraced in the resolution compared with the great anxiety of their conhad declined to publish the debates in full. These stituents, to know what they were about. Buswere not daily papers. Now if they were going iness was accumulating upon the hands of the to strike out anything proposed in the resolu- Convention. Gentlemen could see what an tion, he would say, let us take less of those who amount had accumulated during this brief day do the least for us, and more of those who do and yet not an editor in town was authorized to the most for us. go on and publish these proceedings. He did But it seemed to him, that by calling up the ihope that the gentleman from Switzerland (Mr. resolution, at this time, the gentleman from Kelso) would reconsider the matter. He conMarion (Mr. Maguire) was about to steal a sidered it a wise provision of law, that the promarch upon the Convention. Some anxiety ceedings of the Convention should be promulhad been manifested as to whether there should gated by their authority. But this business had be a permanent location in Indianapolis for the been permitted to sleep too long. He had been Convention, or whether they should be left on informed by one of the editors of this place, that the wing till the report from the select commit- there had already accumulated such an enormous tee should come in. The feeling of the Con- mass of reports, that it would take some days vention, a few minutes ago, seemed to be in to catch up. If the subject was to go again to favor of waiting for the report, but now, if the the table, for several days longer, their constitgentleman could slip in this proposition, and uents would not, of course, know the reason at get the Convention to commit themselves by once; but when they should come to know it. taking newspapers here, it would evidently be what would they say? They would tell their a heavy clog against going elsewhere. He delegates that it was a very paltry consideration would not, himself, make the motion, but he whether they should go to Madison or remain hoped that at the proper time, some gentleman in this town, compared with the public enlightwould move to lay the subject on the table. jenment with reference to what was doing for Mr. TAYLOR said, it seemed to him that it the amendment of the organic law. But he did could not be considered either as wise or good not wish to argue the question, or make a 77 speech; he merely desired to avow his honest up in the House of Representatives on the right. conviction, that it would be better either to dis- of petition, at the time Mr. Adams reported a: pose of this affirmatively, or lay it by forever. resolution to strike out the rule usually known On motion by Mr. SIMS, the resolution and as the Twenty-First, which shut out from receppending amendment were again laid upon the tion, all abolition memorials. The debate dragtable. ged on, through the morning hour, for threeResolutions offered by Messrs. Wolfe, May, entire months. During its progress we heard; and Tague were then disposed of, and, on motion from Southern Representatives the most doleful of Mr. KELSO, and threatening predictions. Rescind this rule, The Convention adjourned until to-morrow the great safe-guard of Southern rights-thus it morning, 9 o'clock. was they argued-and our table will be literally loaded with a daily mass of abolition petitions; -N^- C ji clogging the regular business of the House, and& engrossing, to the exclusion of all other subjects, WEDNESDAY, OCT. 16, 1850. its time and attention. They went further yet. The Chair announced the following additional They predicted, as the ultimate result, nothing members to the committee "On Elections:" less than the dissolution of the Union. But,. Messrs. Anthony and Zenor. in point of fact, what was the issue. Towards Mr. BEARD presented the proceedings of a the close of the discussion, we, who were in fameeting of the "Friends," of the Congregational vor of the right of petition, remained passive, order, in favor of abolishing all distinction be- listening in silence, without reply, to the vehetween the inhabitants of this State on account ment denunciations of Southern alarmists. We of color. waited until the fire of debate had nearly burnMr. BORDEN moved its reference to "the ed out; and then very quietly voted down the committee on the rights and privileges of the restricting rule. What happened in conseinhabitants of this State," and observed that he quence! Literally nothing, except that there knew nothing of this particular society, but was not one abolition petition presented for ten was formerly well acquainted with the Society that had claimed admission before. From that of Friends of the old order, and could bear tes- day to this I have scarcely heard therule alluded timony to their worth. There were ties that to. The subject disappeared, as it were, from bound him to them, that could never be severed, view. From the strongest friends of slavery I and he felt always disposed to treat anything, have heard no assertion, th't the least practicable emanating from persons of that name, with re- evil has resulted from this recognition of the spect. He was opposed to the principles of great principle, that, in a free Republic, all men conferring upon the negro race among us, the have a right, so their language be but decent and right of voting; and if the Convention should respectful, to present, and to claim a hearing be called to act on the question, he should carry for their petitons, no matter whether the prayer out the wishes of those who sent him here, and of these petitions be approved or disapproved by vote against it. But he was in favor of the the majority of the body to which they may be right of petition, and for that reason, he should presented. vote in favor of receiving it. For his part, as a He would not, he said, positively claim for member of this Convention, he should feel it the Memorial areference to any one Committee, his duty to present any petition sent to him though he was Chairman of one to which the from inhabitants of this State, if couched in reference seemed to him appropriate. He was respectful language, without regard to their sect, not in favor of the prayer of the petitioners; color, or condition. He trusted the petition but he earnestly hoped their petition would be would be respectfully received and appropriately received and referred. referred. Mr. FOSTER said, that he did not think the Mr. OWEN said, I do not rise to say anything analogy drawn by the gentleman from Posey as to the question of reference to one committee (Mr. Owen) between the reception of petitions rather than another. But there seems an appa- in Congress and the reception of this Memorial rent disposition among members of the Conven- was correct. Those petitions presented in Contion to reject the Memorial without reference, gress were for the abolition of slavery-this was and to that point I desire to speak. a petition for granting equal rights to negroes. Now, in the outset of our deliberations, let Whenever a respectful petition was presented, us reflect, whether it be wise or just to pursue he had no objection to refer it-but it was due to such a policy; to refuse even to receive or con- that body that petitions presented there should sider any petition couched in respectful lan- emanate from respectable men. Hewastold by guage, merely because we may happen to disap- a friend near him that this was a petition from prove its prayer. I am not much disposed to a nondescriptsect called Congregational Friends refer to the proceedings of Congress by way of -and all the anomalous and eccent:ic religious precedent for the action of this Convention; yet bodies in Christendom, and out of it-for he supit may be useful to remind gentlemen of the very posed there were Christians outside of what was long and somewhat violent debate which sprang called Christendom-this body carried off the 78 palm. It was a sort of ollapodrida-a hotch differ from us in opinion we will disrespectfully potch of the most motley description-composed and contemptuously lay on or under the table t of abolitionists, renegade quakers and negroes. Is this republican, sir Is this the true policy They were not of the regular order of Friends to adopt in a free State like this, or in any -a class of persons for whom he entertained State. No, sir! I think not. This memorithe highest respect-but renegades from that al is couched in the most respectful terms; and, body,'opposed to all religion, and desirous of a although I shall vote against adopting a Conkind of amalgamation in religion, politics, mo- stitutional provision extending the right of suffrality, &c. He wished, while upon the subject, rage to negroes, as I told the people of my disto enquire of the gentleman who presented the trict before they sent me here, a constituency Memorial whether the names of any negroes were as deeply imbued with free-soil sentiments as appended to it! the constituency of any other delegate on this Mr. BEARD, I think not. floor, I shall cheerfully vote for its reception and Because, continued Mr. F., I wish it to be reference. I shall vote for the reception of this understood at the outset, that I am opposed ut-petition as I shall vote for the reception of all terly and entirely to negro suffrage. I do not other petitions, couched in respectful language, want to grant them any more rights or privile- from the people of this State. When I act ges than they enjoy at present in our State. differently I shall justly forfeit the esteem and And I would further say that if we do not take respect of every lover of free speech and free some course to prevent the emigration of negroes discussion, as this Convention will most certo this State we shall be completely inundated tainly do, whenever they adopt such a course. with them-because of the severe constitutional Mr. MORRISON of Marion remarked, that laws that have lately been enacted by Kentucky he considered one of the fundamental principles and the neighboring slave States. It is impor- guarantied by a republican government was the tant that we should make a provision of suffi- i ght of petition. It was a right which should cient stringency to correct this great and grow- be regarded as inviolate-a right which every ing evil. If no gentleman wishes to speak American freeman was entitled to-and every further on this question, I will move to lay the petition of a citizen of the State of Indiana, Memorial on the table. couched in respectful language, presented to this Mr. COLFAX. I trust te f Convention, should be received. He considered Mr. COLFAX. I trust the gentleman from. this course as more obligatory upon them than Monroe will withdraw his motion for a moment. e case referred to by the gentleman from in the case referred to by the gentleman from Mr. FOSTER. Certainly. Posey, (Mr. Owen) of the effect of the TwentyMr. COLFAX said, I have listened, Mr. First rule upon Congress. Here they were called President, to the remarks of the gentleman from upon to make fundamental laws for the governMonroe (Mr. Foster) with great regret, for I ment of the people of Indiana, for, at least, a had believed that no opposition would have been generation to come. Bearing this fact in mind, made to the reception and reference of this Me- justice and propriety dictated that the opinions morial. I care not, sir, whether this sect of of every citizen of the State in regard to the Congregational Friends are peculiar or fanatical, propriety or impropriety of certain laws should as has been charged by him, in their ideas of be taken into consideration. The Twenty-First religion. They are, notwithstanding,our fellow- rule was merely a provision affecting existing citizens, and as such they have the undoubted- provisions of the Constitution of the U. States, I had hoped,! in this body, the undisputed-right while this memorial affected no provisions of of every American freeman to petition their fel- the Constitution of this State; only those that low-citizens whom they elect as their legislators were yet to be made. There he drew the disfor such laws and provisions as, to them, may tinction and although he agreed with every senseem valuable or desirable. It matters not to timent of the gentleman from Monroe (Mr. Fosme, sir, so far as this question is concerned, ter); with regard to the subject of negro suffrage, whether that body is imbued with one iota of he could not apply to white citizens the restrictrue religion, or whether they admit individu- tions that might properly apply to negros-but als of another class and color to church asso- should vote to receive all petitions drawn up ciation with them: they are still entitled to be in courteous language. He should vote against heard in this Hall. Why, sir, we have estab- giving the negro the right of suffrage and in lished a rule in our order of business, that of putting them on an equality with white men, "petitions and memorials," which, in effect, calls and should also advocate stringent measures to upon the citizens of this State to present their prevent their introduction into this State: neverviews and make their wishes known to us through theless he held the right of petition sacred and the medium of such documents as this. And should vote to receive this memorial. are we now virtually to annul that rule T Are Mr. READ of Monroe stated, that there was we to say to the people of Indiana that we will a committee on the rights and privileges of the receive petitions and memorials from those only inhabitants of the State, and to that committee who concur with the majority of us in senti- he wished to have this petitition referred. He ment-and that petitions sent hereby those whoj was in favor of making a respectful reference 79 of all petitions presented by respectable citizens paper was received by them or not, because if of the State. the mass of the people favored the principle Mr. RITCHEY said, he was in favor of re- embodied in it, they, as their representatives, ceiving this petition. If they treated this me- would be unfaithful to duty, unless they acted morial with disrespect, it would create a great upon it in accordance with that sentiment, and excitement throughout the whole State, and would be held responsible accordingly. He asthey would have petitions on petitions pouring sumed the ground that they were the people so in from every quarter. He trusted the Con- far as they were permitted to act as the reprevention would receive it. tatives of the people. These petititions were Mr. CHAPMAN said, if it was the opinion merely suggestions of the people, as individuals, of the Convention that all men should be to those in this Hall-the people in the aggreheard, they should act consistently. The Con- gate. vention, the other day, refused to entertain a Mr. FOSTER was very glad he had lead off proposition of his own-a resolution of mere the opposition, if it had been for nothing else inquiry, touching public defaulters. He was not than to call forth the eloquent remarks of the tenacious about that matter, though he believed gentleman from South Bend (Mr. Colfax). Itbewith the gentlemen from Posey, that many ing a very dark morning, consequently, knowthings were worthy of investigation, that might ing that gentlemen could not see very well to not prove worthy of adoption. If it was proper write resolutions, he thought a spicy little deto reject propositions of a member of the Con- bate, like that which had just transpired, would vention, it might be equally so with regard to not be inappropriate. [Laughter.] a memorial of a few citizens of Wayne County. Mr. CLARK of Tippecanoe said, he did not He was in favor of fair investigation, and should concur with the gentleman from Monroe when therefore vote to refer the memorial. he stated that it was requisite that petitioners Mr. RARIDEN said, he thought there was should be respectable in order to secure the recepsome misconception of this matter. They, as a tion of petitions they might offer. He understood Convention, were bound to act for the people as that all men had certain rights secured to them, wise and prudent men. They should be care- though they might not be respectable. Governful of their own reputations and listen with an ment exercised its powers and duties for the attentive ear to all wise and wholesome sug- benefit of all that were governed, and although gestions. But, he would ask, what effect it men may be entitled to different degrees of rewould have upon this paper, whether it was laid spect, yet all have rights. If they have not the on the table or under the table 3 The question sovereign right to govern, they have personal was, whether the principle contained in it was rights, inalienable rights-rights which all govcorrect-whether it advanced just and sensible ernments recognise in greater or less degrees. views for their consideration. The people held He objected also to the statement of the gentheir representatives responsible for obeying the tleman from Wayne, (Mr. Rariden,) that these beests of their will, whether they apprized their petitioners were not orthodox in their religious representatives of that will or not. Now, if a views, and therefore should not be heard-at petition presented there had reference to a sub- least this was the inference he drew from the ject about the settlement of which society was gentleman's argument. He objected also to divided, in his opinion it was very proper that the gentleman's assumption, that they, as a they should take a moderate view of the matter Convention, were entirely independent of the and not a hasty one. The Congregational pre-existing state of things, and of the present Friends, so far as he was acquainted with them, government as organized for the State-that belonged to no church, were not connected they were the people, and were not to recognize with any other denomination. They pretend- the rights of individuals. He (Mr. C.) thought ed to live for God and mankind, and embraced that they represented the sovereign power of within the circle of their benevolent sympathies the government, which sovereignty, in our govboth black and white. ernment, resides in and is exercised by a maHe could appreciate that kind of feeling jority of the people. These petitioners were when it came from the heart-then he could individuals-a portion of the people who had respect it; but generally it was a species of fan- certainly a right to petition this sovereign auaticism, as he thought it to be in this case. thority which was about to establish permanent As far as the disposition of the paper they laws affecting the rights of individuals, and had presented was concerned, it did not appear should they reject the petition of men connectto him very important what disposition might ed with whose rights they were about to frame be made of it. It was a matter of policy to pre- permanent and perhaps unalterable laws 1 vent irritation and allay all feelings of excite- These principles, he felt bound to say, were in ment among the people-but, so far as the ac- contravention and in opposition to all his ideas tion of that body was concerned, upon the prin- of the purpose of a free government. He felt ciple embodied in the petition it would not be it to be his duty to oppose such sentiments affected by the reception or rejection of the pa- wherever uttered, and wherever attempted to be per. The principle was the same whether the put in practice. This question of the right of 80 petition had agitated the people of this country MADISON, QCt. 12, 1850. for years, and they had finally decided that every To the Common Council of the City of Madon: citizen of this country had a right to petition. What sort of magnanimity was it, he would ask, GENTLEMEN:-The undersigned have been in a government that would not listen to the appointed a committee, on the part of the Con — prayers of the governed' And if the black, stitutional Convention, now assembled at Inman was not represented in this Hall, the only dianapolis, to ascertain whether a room can be way of expressing his opinion, of making known procured in your city of sufficient capacity to the oppression he might labor under, was by accommodate the sessions of that body, and if petitions, in the same way that we presented so, upon what terms. our petitions to the great Being above us. You will please communicate your answer toWhat friend of freedom desired to trample on the Chairman of this committee as early as practhe man whose tongue was tied and hands fet- ticable. tered 1 These sentiments were not the senti- We have the honor to be, ments of democracy; they were not the senti- Very respectfully, yours, &c., ments that would lead to the establishment of MILTON GREGG, equal rights among men-they were not the A. L. WHEELER, sentiments which led to the formation of our T. J. BOURNE, Com'tee. present government, which declared all men DAN'L. KELSO, had rights, and that it was instituted to protect M. G. BRIGHT. those rights. Mr. DOBSON said, that if the Convention To this note of your committee the Common were to engage in a dispute about the negro Council of the city of Madison returned the folquestion for six months, he would rather it lowing answer, which is hereby made a part of would be upon this than any other question. this report: He did not wish to abridge the eloquent efforts OFFICE OF THE COMMON COUNCIL of those gentlemen desirous of engaging in this debate, but he thought they had met there for October 14F 1850 another purpose rather than to reiterate debates that had occurred in other State conventions. GENTLEMEN:-At a meeting of the Common He thought the question of the reception of this Council of the city of Madison, holden this evepetition a very harmless one, and he should vote ning, in relation to your communication of the for its reference to an appropriate committee, 12th inst., making enquiry whether a room of and for having a report made upon it. sufficient capacity could be obtained in the city of Madison (and upon what terms) to accomThe question being taken upon the motion to The question being taken tte he motiton tho modate the sessions of the Constitutional Connrefer the memorial to the committee on the vention now assembled at Indianapolis, the folrights and privileges of the inhabitants of this lowing preamble and resolutions were unanimItate, ously adopted, namely: It was agreed to, and Ithemmra was sgred o, rf. WHEREAS, A committee has been appointed by he memorial was so referredthe Convention now in session at Indianapolis, to visit our city for the purpose of ascerREMOVAL OF THE CONVENTION TO MADISON. taining whether a suitable room can be procured in which said Convention can sit, as the Mr. GREGG, from the committee appointed Representatives' Hall is too small for their to ascertain whether a suitable room could be accommodation: AND WHEREAS, We have obtained in the city of Madison to accommodate learned with pleasure that said Convention the sittings of this Convention, &c., submitted have it in contemplation to adjourn to this the following report: city, provided a suitable room can be obtained, MR. PRESIDENT taied, Resolved, therefore, That the Common CounYour committee, heretofore charged with the cil of the city of Madison do hereby tender to duty of ascertaining whether a suitable room the Constitutional Convention a suitable room could be obtained in the city of Madison of suf- for their accommodation, free of charge; said ficient capacity to accommodate the sittings of room to be well and suitably furnished. this Convention, and if so, upon what terms, The two rooms in vie, either of which can together with such other information as might be had, are of the following dimensions, viz be of interest to this body, beg leave to report, "Melodeon Hall," forty-five feet by sixty feet, That, in discharge of the duty assigned them, with a ceiling eighteen feet high, and "Jenny they visited the city of Madison, on Saturday Lind Hall," which is fifty by eighty-five feet, last, and addressed the following note to the with a ceiling fifteen feet in height, both of municipal authorities of that city, to-wit: which halls are finished in fine style. 81 Resolved, further, That the clerk is hereby discomfort, and without greatly endangering the directed to furnish the Chairman of said com- general health of this body. And they are mittee with a copy of the foregoing preamble equally convinced of the importance, if not of and resolutions. the necessity of a change in their location so [Signed] H. WATTS, President. soon as a more suitable room can be procurred, Attest, F. CRUMBAUGH, City Clerk. nor can your committee see any good reason To Messrs. MILTON GREGG,'] why the business of this Convention cannot be A. L. VWHEELER, J as well transacted in any other city or town in T. J. BOURNE, Committee. this State, where suitable facilities can be obtainDAN'L. KELSO, ed, as in the city of Indianapolis. Your comM. G. BRIGHT. ) mittee therefore recommend the adoption of the Your committee would further state that they following resolutions: made a personal examination of each of the Resolved, That a proper regard for the health, Halls alluded to in ihe communication of the comfort, and convenience of this body imposes city council, and have no hesitation in reporting the necessity of procuring another and more suitathat either of them would be found sufficiently ble place for their deliberations, and that it is expelarge to accomodate all of the members and offi- dient to abandon the Hall now occupied by the cers of this Convention, far more comfortably Convention,so soon as a larger and more comfortthan they possibly can be in this Hall. The "Me- able one can be obtained, properly fitted up and lodeon" is on the second floor and accossable furnished for our accomodation: from the street by a very spacious doorway, and Resolved, That this Convention accept the a flight of steps five and a half feet in width. tender of a Hall made by the Common Council This Hall is situated in the center of the city, of the city of Madison, and that when we adalthough not on the main business street, is easy journ on Friday next we will adjourn to meet at of access, and finished in good taste. It con- 2 o'clock on the following Monday in the Melotains 2925 square feet, while the Representative deon Hall in the city of Madison. Hall, now occupied by the Convention will be e report having een read by the Secretafound to contain within the bar less than 1500 feet. fee "Jeny Ld H " a g s t Mr. WOLFE moved to amend the Resolutions The "Jenny Lind Hall," although somewhat reported by the committee, by sfriking out all larger than the "Melodeon," is not so easy of ac- after the word "resolved" and nserting the folcess being on the third floor, it is, however, lowing. That the Convention ill continue very eligibly situated on one of the principal to occupy this Hall during its deliberations and streets, and the entrance thereto is by a stair- until it shall have completed the labors assigned way from five to six feet in width. Contiguous it." to each of these Halls are a number of well fin- The question being upon the adoption of the ished rooms which would be found well situated amendment tor committee rooms. Mr. PETTIT said, that before voting he simYour committee would further say, that they ply wanted to state that he should vote against visited some eight or ten of the Hotels of Mad- the amendment, and he would give the reason ison and ascertained that good boarding can be why he should do so: for it might look as though obtained at prices ranging from three to seven he desired to go to Madison, which he certainly dollars perweek. Besides,itis understood,should did not. He would as soon think of going to the Convention adjourn to Madison, that several the moon. He was not going to vote for the private families will open their houses for the substitute, because its adoption would bind the entertainment of as many of the members as Convention to remain in his hall, which might they can conveniently accomodate. not be the best thing that could be done. Your committee would further state, that, some- Mr. RARIDEN said, if the Convention was time since, the Board of Directors of the Madi- going to continue its sittings in this Hall, or in son and Indianapolis Railroad Road Co. author- any other Hall in this town, he would say, let ized their President (as this committee are in- it be decided upon at once. What was the obformed) to tender the members of this Conven- ject to be attained by going to Madison, unless tion, in a body, a free passage over their Road to it were to get a hall better calculated for the Madison and back again, at such time during accommodation of the Convention. The next the session as would bestsuit their convenience consideration in this matter was, could not a -and under these circumstances your commit- better hall than this be procured in this town! tee are authorized to say that there will be no He had been appointed upon a committee to charge for conveying this Convention over their procure such a hall, and they had found twor road should they determine to adjourn to Madison. halls which could be procured, of ample size to Your committee are deeply sensible of the fact accommodate this body-the Baptist Church and that this Convention connot continue to hold its the Masonic Hall. Then why not occupy one session in the Hall now occupied by them, with- of these? Was it a feeling of economy which out subjecting themselves to very great personal prevented them from doing so? He would put 6 82 that question; for he had heard it suggested that to be such a convocation here as this Conventhe proprietors of these buildings had manifest- tion, and had not these men risked the invested a disposition to extort from the State an ment of their capital with a view to meet the enormous rent. That might be so, and if so. it wants of this Convention? Would itbejust then was certainly a very wrong thing. But, like toward these men of business for the Convenother men in the transaction of business, these tion to adjourn now, without, in his estimation, proprietors had found out that it always required any adequate cause for so doing! Because one two parties to make a bargain. He would con- or two individuals had manifested a disposition sider for a moment the economy involved. He to extort from the State to the amount of eight supposed the price demanded for these Halls to or ten hundred dollars, was that to be a justifibe extortionate. The price demanded by one cation for removing the Convention away from company was twelve dollars per day, amount- all the conveniences about this building, and ing to seven or eight hundred, or, perhaps a from all the archives of the State! He was thousand, dollars, for the whole session. On the decidedly in favor of remaining in this town, other hand, he affirmed, that if the Convention but against remaining in this Hall; for he did were to resolve to-day upon this proposition to not think the public expectation could be met go to Madison, no business of importance could here, where so many men were brought into so be transacted by this body till next Tuesday small a space. They might feel well enough morning, while the State expenses would be go- toward one another, but they could not do the ing on at a rate of about five hundred dollars a public business amidst so much jostling and elday. [A voice, "six hundred."] He put it at bowing, a thing which could not be avoided five hundred, to be within a just estimate. here. What was ten or twelve hundred dolThis would be the cost of removal, besides oth- lars toward the accommodation of a body of er expenses of going and coming, and besides men called together to perform the most responthis, it would dissipate everything like harmony sible work which had been transacted for the and good feeling between the two towns. He State for more than a generation past, the buhad a very high opinion of the people of the siness of altering and amending the fun damenttown of Madison. Whatever may have been al law, a work which was probably to stand for said about that town, he remembered the time a generation to come. when she reached forth her arm and saved the He regretted that he could not say more, but sinking fortunes of the State, by her assistance he felt that his health would be hazarded if he rendered toward the completion of the Madison went more at length into these considerations. and Indianapolis Railroad. But towns would He desired most of all to say, that gentlemen always act for the advancement of their own in- should have no feeling upon this subject. If terests, and if there were gentlemen of that they chose to adopt the resolutions let it be town who were desirous of subserving their done, or else let them refuse tc do so. Or if own private ends, he had no kind of objection it should be their choice to remove from this to it. He himself had found nothing but kind- Hall to some other in this town, let them just ness and hospitality both there and here in Indi- authorize the committee to contract for the anapolis. Church or the Masonic Hall. But he was discussing the question of econo- Mr. COLFAX said, the gentleman from my on behalf of the State of Indiana, and he Wayne (Mr. Rariden) had anticipated him could not but think it an unwise expenditure to in many things upon which he had intended to occupy five or six days with this removal, forthe remark, and which he would not repeat. He sake of removing the body away from all the held different views in regard to the powers of sources of knoweldge to be found in the ar- the Convention, from those which had been chives of the State. And here also was the advanced by several gentlemen in the discussion State Library opening all its treasures of knowl- on the State Printing; but he did not intend now edge to members-they could not remove that. to re-open that discussion. He merely mentionBut there was another thing in this question: ed this by way of explanation, because it was Had not the people a right to look to the State his intention to look into the law under which for a fulfillment of all her obligations to her the Convention was assembled. He did not citizens, and should not the people be allowed think the Convention was clothed with such abto realize alltheir just expectations of the State? solute authority as was claimed by gentlemen And had not the people a just right to expect the other day. He believed this body to be the that all the public business of the State would creature of legislation, which carried out the be transacted in the town of Indianapolis! Had popular will in calling the Convention together; not the public money been profusely expended for even the place where they should hold their in this town? Had not the State, in this way, sessions was provided by law and the expenses induced men to give high prices for property, are paid by special authority of law. and to come here and establish themselves for After all, this Convention had been sent here life! Moreover, had not the State given the to perform a duty, which could not, in conworld, and especially men of business and those structive power, compare with the business of engaged in trade, to understand that there was legislation. The Legislature could pass the 83 most important laws, affecting the interests of day of December the Legislature was to meet the whole people, which would go into force there. That body therefore, had a superior right by the legislative action of that body. All to the building; and hence the absolute neceswe can do, as had been before stated, was, to act sity for the removal. In an exactly similar as a grand committee of proposition. The Con- case, the precedent might have weight here: vention could make only A CLAY IMAGE, which as it is, it has none. can be vivified only by the breath of the peo- But with reference to the argument of conpie. Their labors would amount to nothing venience which had been already appropriately without the ratification of the people-unless referred to by the gentleman from Waync, (Mr. that people at the time of their voting upon Rariden.) Here was the State Library and all the proposed New Constitution, give to it its contributions to the stock of general vitality by affirming our action. It might be knowledge, which members of the Convention with them, as with the first Wisconsin conven- ought to possess; and going to Madison tion, whose labors being submitted to the people would completely throw them out from the enwere rejected; and another convention was joymentofthis important advantage. The State necessarily convoked to make another constitu- officers were here, and they were placed by the tion more conformable to the wishes of their Legislature in a kind of connection with this constituents. But he only offered this statement body, with authority to command their services if as a reason for the reference which he was needed. They would be frequently called upon about to make to the law which authorized this for information upon various subjects of vast Convention. importance to the deliberations here. One or The law showed distinctly that it was intend- two of these resolutions of inquiry had been passed that the convention was to stay here at ed already. But if they were to go to Madison, the Capitol. It provided that the Delegates all of these facilities for information would be should assemble here and organize for the elec- placed further off. Further more, on the score tion of a President, and in the close of Section of economy, of which the friends of the Madison 11, it was specially provided that the members change have talked much, there was the conshould have the use of the books in the State sideration of extra mileage to be reckoned Library, in which could be found many important amongst the expenses of the proposed removal. volumes, valuable to the members of the con- The whole 150 members of the Convention vention for information on the various subjects would have to travel 86 miles each to Madison, that will come before them. Now the Legislature and fully two-thirds of them, 100, would be comcertainly did not anticipate that they were to pelled, at the adjournment, to return home via pack up the State Library and the Librarian (Mr. Indianapolis. This would make 21,000 extra Dillon,) upon the top of it, and carry all of them miles to be paid for amongst the expenses of on a freight car to Madison. No, they ex- the Convention, amounting to $2,625; which pected the Library to remain here, of course, with' several days that will be lost by the time and we with it. spent in the removal, with the confusion that Again: in case of vacancy by death or resig- would prevent action for a short time after, at nation, how was the new member to be quali- $600 per day, would make the extra expenses fied. The law provided that members were to incurred by this removal at least $4,000. be sworn in by one of the Judges of the Supreme Again: the local presses of the State are or Circuit Courts, or some officer of the county deeply interested in the proceedings of this of Marion, authorized to administer an oath. body, in copying them for their readers, and Fortunately, there are in the convention three thus diffusing reliable and full information of judges who can perform this service. But our acts. They have, therefore, effected an exsupposing there were not2 and the convention change with one or all the papers here, some sitting in the "Jenny Lind Hall," as it is called of which are large enough to publish either at Madison, were about to swear in a new full reports by theirreporters, or the entire Stemember, they would have to send all the way nographic report of the debates if that is ordered. here, to Marion County, to procure an officer to But the papers at Madison are smaller in size, as administer the oath, while the new member is well known-they could furnish only brief waits in the lobby until the cars can bring that reports-and their exchange with the local press officer there. being much more restricted, would prevent as But it might be contended that there was a extensive a dissemination of our proceedings precedent for this removal in the act by which amongst the people. the Constitutional Convention of Ohio adjourn- Whether the Convention would continue to ed from Columbus to meet again in Cincinnati. sit in this Hall, was a matter of indifference to But what were the circumstances in that casel himself, personally. He would not insist upon The Convention were resolved to adjourn over anything only that the Convention should not the warm weather until the first Monday in remove beyond the limits of the Capital of the December. They had but one convenient hall State. He insisted upon this, because gentle — for the accommodation of a deliberative body, in men were all now settled downhere, and estabthe city of Columbus; and on the first Mon- lished in their several boarding places: and be 84 cause he did not believe that the people of Mad- the gentleman from St. Joseph, (Mr. Colfax,) ison were in a situation immediately, not hav- making five thousand dollars difference in the ing anticipated such a removal, to accommo- public expenditure, between staying here and date them similarly. going to Madison. He admitted that they were Besides this, and more than all, the success crowded a little here, but he would prefer to be of the proposition would not be a compliance crowded a little himself, rather than crowd out with the expectations of the people. The peo- their constituents. They were provided with ple had not expected them to make a sort of lobbies here, where their constituents could come traveling menagerie of this body; and, he ven- in and inspect their doings. He was always tured to say, that no law could have passed the glad to see them around, and he could wish to Legislature contemplating a session of the Con- see more of them. If they removed their sitvention at any other place than at Indianapolis. tings from this Hall, he would ask where could If, then, gentlemen had come here fairly to they get another with accommodating lobbies? represent the wishes of the people, they should Should they go into a concert-room, their conbe willing to give to the law underwhich they had stituents would either have to go into the pit, or assembled, the only construction which it would have their hats chalked in the hall, so that the bear. In this way they would discharge their door-keeper could tell whether to put them out duty as representatives, for, although they claim- or not. Again, the people had sent them here ed such absolute and uncontrollable power, to transact business at the expense of the State, they could not divest themselves of their rep- and it was a question with him whether many resentative character. of their constituents at home were not more In regard to the proposition to go into the crowded than they were. They had a good roof Masonic Hall, the citizens of Indianapolis had over them, and solid walls around them, and certainly made a most liberal proposition, if the good chairs to sit upon. Whoever mingled with change of rooms was desired. They had said the people would find many of their constituto the committee-"Set your own price for the ents who were not better accommodated. And rent of the Hall, whether one dollar, or five, or gentlemen should remember, that when they eight dollars, per day, and we will ourselves pay themselves go upon the stump, they are content the rest." The Legislature had contemplated to sit upon the lowest seat, and lie upon the that this Hall might be found too crowded, for worst bed; and they should remember how they they had expressly authorized the State officers used to kiss all the little ragged children, and to hire another room, but had only authorized swear, at every house, that they had the prettithem to offer a sum which all considered inade- est children in the world. But now, so soon as quate. But now, if we do desire for health, or gentlemen had got here, they seemed, all at comfort, or convenience, to change our present once, to have become very choice about their quarters, what fairer or more honorable proposi- accommodations. For himself, he had taken a ion could we have asked or expected of the seat out there upon the confines of the Hall; liberal citizens of this town? and he preferred to retain it rather than take the For these reasons he hoped the report would chance of a removal; for if they cut loose from not be adopted. that Hall, they might go to Madison, or CinMr. DOBSON said, this seemed to be a kind cinnati, or Louisville, or wherever they choose, of three-sided question. He was in favor of tak- he did not know but that they might congregate ing the vote upon the proposition of the gentle- upon the Grand Prairie. It was reasonable to man from Sullivan (Mr. Wolfe) first. But he suppose, that about the time of the organization wanted, first of all, to know whether they were of the body they would be more crowded, than to leave this Hall or not. If they were to leave after the time when the committees begin to this hall, then it was to be determined where work. For himself, he expected, for about half they would go. For one, he was for remaining the time, whilst the speaking would be going on, right where he was. This was the people's to be amused and interested outside of the bar. Hall. It had been provided for the accommo- He was on the confines now. He had selected a dation of the Convention, and he thought wisely place there for his seat, about two feet one way provided. Connected with this Hall were the and five feet the other. This space he divided committee rooms, the State Library, the public re- with another member, and, although he was the cords, besides other conveniences which he would longest-legged man but one in the Hall, yet he not stop to enumerate; and here was the advan- had learned how to get along well enough. tage of the neighborhood of the public offices, Mr. KENT moved to commit the resolution which had already been referred to. On the and amendment to a select committee of "five,"' other hand, if the Convention should determine with instructions to enquire by letter whether to go to Madison, it would occupy at least five a more commodious room and cheaper board or six days, at a cost of six hundred dollars per cannot be secured at some other point on the day, before they could get under way with the Ohio river, and to report the result of such inbusiness of the Convention there, making three vestigation to this Convention on the third Monthousand dollars, aside from the mileage esti- day in December next. mate of two thousand five hundred dollars, by The question was taken on the motion of the 85 gentleman from Floyd, and it was decided in the reason I shall vote in favor of the amendment. negative. I would sit here rather than accept the Masonic Mr. KELSO said, that as to whether they Hall at an exorbitant price. Indeed, I am not should leave this Hall or not, he cared very in favor of taking it upon any terms. When they little. He was to some extent like his friend thought they had us by the collar, and that we from Owen. He had been raised in the bush, could not escape, they were disposed to take and, as the common saying was,rocked in a su- from the public Treasury the exorbitant sum of gar trough, and accustomed to inconveniences fifteen hundred or two thousand dollars, for its all his life; and he believed he could endure the use. I am opposed now to having it at any inconveniences of this Hall as well as any other price. man; for that it was extremely inconvenient Mr. WOLFE said, that it was not his purpose and uncomfortable no one would dispute: but, in introducing the amendment to give any prefas he had said, inconvenience and discomfort he erence to either Indianapolis or Madison. He had been accustomed to. The question first to had introduced it in justice to their constituents be settled, however, was, whether they would at large. He believed this was the pla(e in leave this place or not. which the Convention should sit, but if the He did not think that his friend from St. Jo- Convention should determine otherwise, then he seph knew anything more about our rights and was for going where the best accommodation privileges than he supposed he did. [A laugh.] could be procured. According to that gentleman's opinion this Con- Mr. HADDON moved to amend the amendvention was the creature of the Legislature. ment by adding the words " unless this ConSuppose, said Mr. Kelso, the Legislature had vention may find it to be, to the interest of the taken it into their heads to enact as a part of State, and comfort of said Conventien to move the law relating to this Convention, that we to some other room in this city." should make certain amendments in the Con- The question was taken on the amendment stitution and none other; I ask would they not to the amendment, and it was rejected. have the same right to do so, as to insist in the Mr. DUNN of Jefferson said, that he did r o' act what they have inserted? and would we be intend to detain the Convention with a speech. bound to comply with such a provision of the He desired to say, however, that if the Convenact-as that! I do not believe that any man here tion should determine to remove to Madison, it would rise and say that we would. Seven-tenths would be very gratifying to his feelings and to at least of the members of this Convention, I the people of that place and its vicinity. His am sure, know better. I maintain then that constituents would be pleased to have the opporwe have the power, under the law, to remove tunity of attending the meetings of this Confrom Indianapolis and go wheresoever we please, vention, of listening to the debates that will take so that we keep within the limits of the State. place, and of making the acquaintance of the Mr. COLFAX. Why must we keep within Delegates, some of whom have already distinthe limits of the State. guished themselves in the councils of the State Mr. KELSO. Because we have no business and Nation, and others of whom will, no doubt, out of it. hereafter become equally distinguished. I sir, was one of the committee that was ap- A committee of your appointment has visited pointed to ascertain whether a more convenient Madison to ascertain whether suitable accommot Hall could be obtained in Indianapolis. The dations for the Convention could there be procurcommittee promptly discharged their duty, and ed, and.upon what terms. The report of thareported to the Convention that a proposition committee is before you. It does not become was made to us such as we did not feel at libr- me to say whether the citizens of that plac ty to reccommend the adoption of; there was not have tendered to you a hospitable welcome, nor a single member of the committee in favor of to contrast the spirit manifested by them with hiring the Hall that was offered to us, at the price that which has been exhibited here. I have that was demanded for it; we therefore simply nothing to say as to the compensation demanded submitted the proposition, and it was laid on the of this Convention for the use of the Masonic table. A committee was then appointed to go Hall, or other houses in this city. If those havto Madison and ascertain what accommodation ing charge of these buildings thought they could could he obtained for the Convention at that drive a hard bargain with us and have shown a place. I was one of that committee. The disposition so to do, they have but manifested the duty entrusted to it has been faithfully perform- selfishness of human nature. But, sir, in advoed, and the facts correctly stated to the Conven- cating this removal I wish to say nothing in distion. Now what the Convention may determine paragement of the citizens of Indianapolis. upon is a matter that I care very little about.- They have always treated me well, fully as well If you determine to remain here I am satisfied; as I deserved, and I have among them many of but if you determine to remove I claim a voice I my most valued friends and acquaintances. I as to where we shall go. \ do not consider that there is any thing in the I am rather in favor of leaving it an open law under which we are assembled that requires question to be decided hereafter, and for that us to continue our sessions here. We may ad 86 journ to any point in the State if it becomes ed for the purposes of a deliberative assembly, necessary so to do for our comfort, health, or It is not an easy Hall to speak in, and of course the convenient transaction of our business, and is not a good one to hear in. Indeed, if the there is certainly nothing wrong in a fair corn- architect who constructed this Hall had underpetition for whatever benefits may accrue to taken to violate all the laws of health and the place in which our sessions may be held. acoustics in its construction, he could not have I am influenced by no hostility to this city in been much more successful than he has been. the vote I shall give. The citizens of Madi- I think, therefore, that we ought to endeavor to son are neither envious nor jealous of the procure some place for our meetings where we growth and prosperity of Indianapolis, but re- can be more comfortably situated and our health joice in her improvement as they do in that of exposed to less danger. all parts of our State and country, and I have This will prove the better economy in the end. only to regret that on some previous occasions, It is impossible for us to continue in session a similar feeling has not been manifested to- long at a time here, and while we are so unwards Madison. Permit me to say that, in my comfortably situated we will be in session but opinion, a very unjust and unfounded prejudice a few hours per day, and consequently it will be against Madison, exists in many parts of our a greater number of days before our task is acState-a prejudice that much industry has complished. been employed to extend, and one which a bet- A few words in reply to some of the objecter acquaintance with our city and her citizens tions urged against the proposed removal to would do much to remove; and this, sir, is one Madison. One gentleman suggests that there reason why I desire that the members of this are on newspapers there capable of publishing Convention, representing every part of the the proceedings of this Convention. There is State, may have the opportunity of spending a one daily paper published here,and there are two few weeks in the city of Madison. daily papers published there, one of which is But, Mr. President, whether we shall remove near the size of the Daily Journal, and both of from this city or not, I feel anxious that we which would, no doubt, be promptly enlarged if should leave this Hall. I have had the experi- it should become necessary for them to publish ence of but one session here, you have had the our proceedings and debates. experience of several, and I have no doubt that Another gentleman seems to think that there every person who has served a session in this is a great and unusual concentration of light Hall must be aware of the great sacrifice of and knowledge in this city, especially in the health to which the members of the Legisla- State Library. If this is the case, the facilities ture are here subjected. My health was serious- of communication between the two cities is so ly impaired the winter I was here, and I attrib- great that Madison can readily borrow a few ute tie injury I sustained to the foul atmosphere santillations of this light if necessary, and all I was compelled to breathe in this Hall. We the books and documents from here that we do not feel this evil now, while the weather is possibly can need, can be procured with the pleasant, the windows all open, and we have greatest convenience. In regard to the milethe air fresh and pure from the surrounding age of the delegates, the removal can occasion country; but, sir, when the cold weather comes, but little difference, for generally about the as soon it will, and these windows have to be time that we shall probably adjourn, the roads closed, and we are shut up here in these crowd- are almost impassible, and in addition to those ed se4ts, and our lobbies are thronged with vis- who otherwise would return to their homes by itors, all breathing over and over again the the way of Madison, many of the delegates, same atmosphere, until it becomes foul and some of them evenliving in the Wabash counsickening, then sir, we will all realize how un- try will proceed to Madison and thence by wafit is this Hall for the accommodation of such ter to the places of their residence, or as near to an assemblage. Some of us will not only be them as they can go by steamboats. Under compelled to leave here on account of our im- the arrangement suggested by the committee it paired health, but unless we are more fortunate will cost the delegates nothing to go to Madithan many who have occupied these seats be- son, and they ought therefore to charge no ad. fore us, may be sent to our long homes in con- ditional mileage for going there. sequence of the want of any proper arrange- I wish, Mr. President, before I take my ments for the ventilation of this Hall. More- seat, to make an explanation with reference to over, I am informed that the space between the the free passage in the cars to Madison, which floor and the ceiing below was filled with mor- the committee state they are authorized to say tar, and of course that makes the floor very will be afforded to the members of this Concold, and gentlemen sitting here, especially vention, in the event of its removal.' h when their boots are damp, will be liable to President of the Rail Road Company, has not, take severe colds before they are aware of it. in any manner, interfered in this question, and Sir, this Hall is but little better than a slaughter I do not wish that it shouid even seem that he house of the Represetatives of the people. Nor had so interfered. The board of directors of is this the only objection. It is badly construct- the Company, at its last meeting, directed the 87 President to tender to the members of this I his experience during his canvass was, that he Convention a free passage to and from Madison, was frequently crowded into cabins, where at such time during the session as the Con- there was scarcely room for the family, without vention might designate; and I understand that the presence of strangers. It was true, also, the President, when applied to by the commit- that a great proportion of their constituency tee on this subject, stated that he should ex- were living in small cabins, where the children tend the invitation as directed, and the Conven- were huddling around a small fire-place, glad tion might avail themselves of it if they pleas- of any shelter from the inclemency of the ed, and whenever they pleased, whether there weather. He would add one further remark, was a removal or not. and it was, that if the atmosphere of this house And now, Mr. President, having occupied became unhealthy, and thus the sittings of the the attention of the Convention longer than I Convention in this place should be the means anticipated, I will only add, that, as one of the of taking the old man's life, he would have the delegates from Jefferson county, however much consolation of knowing that he died in a good I might be gratified by the adjournment of the cause, and his epitaph should be " Old Billy Convention to Madison, I have not and will not died while in the discharge of his public now urge an adjournment. We are not there duties." accustomed to invite our friends to partake of Mr. PEPPER of Ohio said, that before votour hospitalities and then beg them to accept ing upon the amendment of the gentleman our invitation. If the Convention should go from Sullivan, he would like to know whether to Madison, I trust the delegates will not be there had not been submitted to the Convendisappointed in any of their reasonable expecta- i tion by the gentleman from Marion, a distinct tions as to the accommodations they would there and separate proposition, which he was authorenjoy, as for myself, I would much prefer that ized to make, in regard to the use of the Mawe should remain here than that any such dis- sonic Hall. appointment should occur. The PRESIDENT said, that he would inMr. STEELE said, he desired to make a few form the gentleman that a proposition relative remarks; that he would promise not to detain to that subject was presented yesterday by the the Convention long; first, as to the accommo- gentleman from Marion, and that it was laid dations here. Gentlemen were complaining of upon the table. being crowded. He recollected the first morn- Mr. PEPPER, continuing, said, that he ing he came into the Hall, he traveled around should vote against the amendment of the genand saw all the desks occupied. At last he tleman from Sullivan, for the reason assigned came round to where he was now sitting, and by the gentleman from Tippecanoe. He was importuned his friends to give him a place, and not satisfied that it was right to remain in this they did so, and ever since that time five of them Hall, although he was prepared to vote in favor had been sitting at two desks. He supposed of remaining in the city of Indianapolis. other members were situated very much in the Mr. OWEN said, he should not have said a same way, but for his own part he had got quite word upon this occasion, had it not been for used to it, and was now sitting quite comfort- the introduction of' th amendment of the genably among his friends. His constituents, ac- tleman from Sullivan. It appeared to him that cording to his impression, had designated this they ought to consider exactly what it was legislative Hall as the place where the Conven- they were voting upon. If the point to be detion should hold its sittings, and it occurred to cided, was whether they should remain for the him, that if they were to remove to Madison, or present in this Hall, or remove from it, it would even to the Masonic Hall in this city, it would be a plain question, and one upon which they impose upon him the duty of returning at once might vote without tying themselves up as to to the bosom of those who elected him. He their future action; but as heunderstood it that had come here for the express purpose of put- was not the question. The question was, ting in execution what he understood to be the whether they should remove from this Hall, or will of his constituents. This was the course whether they should remain in it during the ha expected to pursue. He intended to vote for whole session. That, he believed, was the the amendment of the gentleman from Sullivan, tenor of the proposition as it stood. and the vote of the Convention upon that amend- Several MEMBERS. " Oh no!" ment would decide the question and put it at Mr. OWEN. Is not that it? I would like rest. His friend from Switzerland had stated to hear the amendment read. that he had been enured to hardships. He (Mr. [The amendment was accordingly read by S ) could say, also, that he had sat in legisla- the Secretary.] tive halls that were quite as small and inconven- Mr. OWEN. Nothing can be more imperaient as this. He was quite as comfortably ac- tive. No matter what circumstances may arise, commodated now as were the members of the if the amendment be adopted we are to conLegislature who met in the old court-house; tinue our sittings here until the close of our and as the gentleman had remarked, in relation labors. Now, I think that is going too far. I to the situation of their constituents at home, remember reading in the history of England, 88 that in the reign of one of the Charleses there say that I am perfectly satisfied with regard to was a certain oath required to be subscribed all the proposition made to us here; prices have b y the students of the University of Oxford, I been demanded that are nearly as high as they believe, not only abjuring the doctrine that would be at Washington; but I have never subjects ought, under any circumstances, resist been at any seat of Government, whether it their King, but declaring also, that never, while be that of the U. States, Columbus, this city, they lived, would they believe in so scandalous or any other, where there has not been more a heresy. Now I am not for taking such a or less of a disposition to make as much as course as this, and placing a bar in the way of could well be made out of the Government. a change of determination. I am not prepared That is natural; and, I must say, that I have to say that I will not, at some future time, be not seen more, nay, I do not think I have seen in favor of a removal. I shall therefore vote so much of that spirit in this city as I have seen against the proposition of the gentleman from elsewhere, under similar circumstances. Sullivan. With regard to the Masonic Hall and the Now, as to our power to remove to any place propositions that have been made to us respectwe may choose, I can conceive-without claim- ing it, I think we allow our feelings to carry ing for the committee powers of an indefinite us a little farther than is just or reasonable. character-that, in the discharge of duty as I am not a member of the fraternity to which the delegates, we have the power to do all things Hall belongs, and have no personal interest that are necessary and reasonable; and that the in the matter; nor do I know what the risk atLegislature, as to all expenses incurred for rea- tending our occupation of it, may be; but I know sonable objects, would, to use an ordinary the owners have a perfect right to demand what phrase, be bound to foot the bill-pay the ex- they please for its use, and we have a perpenses. The proposition made by the people fect right to refuse to give it. If, after such refusof Madison is certainly a very fair and libelar al, they should decide to reduce their demand, one and I think the Convention ought to con- be willing to accept one-half or one-fourth of sider itself indebted to them. I think it would the price first demanded, I for one, if they came be well for us to consider what reason we shall down to a price that is reasonable, see no reaassign when we go home and the question is son that should prevent us from closing the barput to us-"Why, did you remove from Indian- gain. But this is aside from the immediate polls " question before us. I rose chiefly to express a I agree with the gentleman from the North hope that we would not adopt an amendment (Mr. Colfax) that the expenses of removal will which not only declares that we will not now be very large. It is said that there is an offer remove, but that we will not any time hereafto us that we shall be conveyed to Madison made ter. free of expense; but, I ask you, if the members Mr. HELM said he was opposed to the amendof this Convention will not be entitled to re- ment because it offered no alternative but to receive mileage if they choose to demand it? I main here, and it was evident to every one that ask you, sir, whether you will not be this Hall was not large enough to accommoobliged to certify their accounts for additional date the members of the Convention. He was mileage? I do not say that gentlemen may satisfied, notwithstanding what had been said not make their constituents a present of this about their constituents at home, that they were mileage, I say only that they are entitled, be- better accommodated than their delegates were yond all doubt, legally entitled to receive it. in this Hall. They had at least a pure atmosBut the gentlemen from Jefferson has said phere to breathe, and that, said he, is a thing that although some additional expense for mile- which we have not. Sir, if the amendment had age will be incurred, it will be counterbal- proposed adjourning from this Hall to some othanced by the smaller amount that will be due er suitable building in this city, I should, perto the Southern members for mileage, at the haps, have supported it, provided the building close of the session. I think the gentleman could have been procured at a fair and reasonis in error. Many, even of the Southern mem- able charge. But I should vote against the bers, will be farther from home at Madison amendment as it now stands, and in favor of the than here. I myself would be entitled to proposition for removing to Madison, in prefermileage for one hundred miles beyond what I ence to remaining here. should have a right to receive if the Conven- Mr. MAGUIRE said, he desired to make a tion remain in this place. few remarks in reply to the gentleman from Again, it would be unreasonable to suppose Switzerland. The gentleman (speaking of the that less than two or three days will be con- proposition to rent the Masonic Hall) said that sumed in making the change from one place to they had made one proposition, and finding that the other, and that, at the expense of some not acceptable, had found it necessary to make $600 a day, will amount to $3,000. I do not another one more liberal, thus showing a wilbelieve that the removal, including additional lingness to extort as much as they could from mileage, will cost less than $4000. Now, are the Convention. Now, he would ask the genwe prepared to go to that expense? I will not tleman to whom he had reference when he 89 said they had done so and so? Did he mean well, and he felt bound to say that no charge the citizens of Indianapolis 1 of extortion could be justified by any conduct Mr. KELSO said, he had cast no imputation of his, in the course of his life. His personal upon the citizens of Indianapolis. All that he interest in the Hall was quite inconsiderable, had said, was, that he, for one, was prepared, and he had devoted much of his time and attenwhen an exorbitant demand was made, to go tion in the superintendence of its construction, against it. without compensation. This much he felt Mr. MAGUIRE said, that the gentleman bound to say, in order to do justice to that genhad not replied to the point of his inquiry. tleman, and to correct an error into which some He, Mr. M., had heretofore explained that gentlemen seemed to have fallen. the citizens of Indianapolis had nothing more He would not enter into an argument to to do with the Masonic Hall than the mem- show that it would not be proper for the Conbers of the Convention themselves, and con- vention to remove from this city. The objecsequently they had made no proposition to tions to such a movement had been well stated the committee, respecting it. The committee by others. He would take no part in the dishad made no inquiry of the citizens respecting cussion of that question, lest he might be supthe procuring of a Hall, for the accommodation posed to be actuated by interested motives. of the Convention. They were confined by He was willing to sit in this Hall, or go any their instructions to the procuring of the Ma- where else in this city, as the Convention might sonic Hall, and, as he said before, the citizens determine to be best. He would vote for the had no control over it. After the committee amendment of the gentleman from Sullivan, made their report to the Convention, setting although he would prefer that the question of forth the terms upon which that Hall could be remaining here or removing to the Masonic procured, a number of responsible men, in be. Hall, should be left to the discretion of the half of the citizens, had guarantied that the Convention hereafter. amount demanded for the Hall, over and above Before he took his seat, he desired to make a what the Convention deemed reasonable, would remark in reply to the gentleman from Jefferbe made up by the citizens, no matter what son (Mr. Dunn). Whether the people of the sum agreed upon by the Convention might Madison regarded our interests more than we be. He had presented their communication on regarded theirs he would not undertake to dethis subject, to the Convention, some days ago, termine; nor could he see that that matter had and it was now lying on the table of the Sec- any legitimate bearing upon the question now retary. No application had been made to the under consideration; but he would say that citizens of Indianapolis for proposals to fur- there was no prejudice existing here against nish a convenient place for the sittings of the the people of Madison. On the contrary, the Convention, and, therefore, no proposition had people here are gratified at the prospect of seebeen made by them, except as before stated. ing, before many years, a large and prosperous No communication had come from our City city there. The interests of the two cities are Council, because no application had been made in no respect antagonistical. He had the highto them, as had been made to the City Council est respectfor the gentlemen, all of them, whom of Madison. He took it upon himself, howev- the city of Madison and the county of Jefferson ever, to say that the citizens of Indianapolis had elected to represent them in this Convenwere always ready to respond to any appeal to tion. They were able and intelligent, and their liberality, and a portion of them had come would -reflect honor upon their constituency. forward in this instance, voluntarily, and agreed He hoped, however, that in the allusion made to pay the balance upon the rent of the Hall. by the gentleman from Jefferson, to the illiberThis was all that could, with propriety, be done ality of the people of this city, he did not mean under the circumstances, without being ob- as much as his remarks might seem to import, trusive. Sir, I repeat, the people of this place have no It was not his purpose to enter into the de- jealousy of, or hostility to, the citizens of Madifence of the people of this place, as to com- son. There is no cause for such a feeling. As plaints made as to the accommodation of mem- to the procurement of & hall, in which to hold bers, &c. He believed that there was not more the sessions of this Convention, he would rediscontent on that subject, than was common peat that tlie citizens of Indianapolis stood ready at other seats of Government. He felt it his to respond l;o any reasonable demand that could duty, however, to say, for the gentleman who be made upon them. This was all he desired represents the Stockholders of the Masonic to say. Tile Convention had now the whole Hall, who had no opportunity of defending him- matter before them, and could determine the self on this floor, that he was merely the agent question according to their pleasure. of the owners, and was without discretion in Mr. KELO said, that the gentleman from the matter. The Hall was the property of Marion seemed to be extremely anxious to cordtockholders living in various parts of the State, rect an errol, into which he supposed he (Mr. san its profits were understood to be devoted to K.) had fallomn. Now, continued Mr. Kelso, charitable purposes. He knew that gentleman I undertake 1 o say I have fallen into no error. 90 And it appears to me, somewhat strange that care The propositions made to the committee -the gentleman should come here to defend the are public property, and we have a right to people of Indianapolis, when nobody had at- speak of them precisel yas we think. I have attacked them. tacked no man, or set of men, nor have I fallen Mr. MAGUIRE said, that the gentleman into any error. All that I have said is strictly had cast an imputation upon them by implica- correct, and I repeat that I spoke only for mytion. The gentleman, by the use of the word self. they, had left it doubtful to whom he referred. Mr. RITCHEY said, that he should not Mr. KELSO (continuing). Well, sir, I should have troubled the Convention with any remarks suppose that if any man is qualified for a seat had it not been for what was said by the genhere, he would understand the meaning of plain tleman from Jefferson, in reference to the unEnglish language. wholesomeness of this Hall. I have had the We made application to Mr. Sheets for the honor, said Mr. Ritchey, of being a member of use of the Masonic Hall. He returned a reply the Legislature, and of serving two sessions in to the committee, containing a statement of this Hall, and have also been in other halls, what was the precise truth of the matter, I ap- and so far as my experience goes I can not see prehend, and in that reply he said, that he was the least difference. It is true that I have never the mere agent of the stockholders of the con- served here during a session of the Legislature,cern. Now would it have been proper for me without materially injuring my health, but I to say that it was his act —that he did it! No, disagree with the gentleman in the assertion.sir. He advised us in his statement that he did that it is the unwholesomeness of this Hall that not speak for himself, but for the Stockholders. occasions the mischief. I cannot see why this And I said I thought their demand exorbitant, Hall may not be as well ventilated as any hall and it was made in such a way as to warrant in Madison, or as the Masonic Hall in this.us in not having anything to do with it; I think city. so now. We did not, it is true, apply to the Corn- Sir, I do not believe that the reason why.mon Council of Indianapolis. We had no in- members of the Legislature or of the Conven-.ducement to do so. Nobody intimated to us that tion suffer with ill health, is to be found in the we would receive anything from that quarter; unwholesomeness of the atmosphere in this and nobody has said anything about the liber- Hall. It is my opinion, and I give this opinion ality or illiberality, of the citizens of Indianap- as a medical man, that the friction of mind, the olis-about the high price of boarding-about agitation, the sedentary habits of members, tothe imposition practiced by landlords, and all gether with indulging too freely at the table, that-save the gentleman himself. He seems and other indulgences, are the occasion of the to think it necessary to defend the people of bad health which gentlemen experience here; Indianapolis before they had been assailed, and I apprehend that if we were to adjourn to Now, the committee were advised that there the Masonic Hall the same causes would affect were two halls in this place, either of which us quite as much. If we remove this Convenwe might obtain-one under the charge of the tion to Madison we shall be subject to the same Baptist society, the other that of Mr. Sheets., evils and inconveniences. The excitement, the We made a written application to each, and indulgences, and all things that tend to impair received a written reply. In the reply of Mr. health, will be present even there, and we shall Sheets, hle defined his position distinctly, and be quite as likely to suffer in health as we would nothing can be said against him. I have not be, if we remain here. heard any one intimate that Mr. Sheets was an Sir, I am in favor of remaining in this Hall, extortionate man, or that he expected to extort and I am glad that the gentleman from Sullia single dime from the Convention. I could not van has moved the proposition that he has. But have made any such accusation against. him be- if we remove from this Hall I am for going to cause knew he was not acting for himself. I Madison. I think the people of Madison desaid that, in my judgment, the demand was ex- serve our thanks for the generous offer they orbitant, and my own judgment is as good for have made us, and I hope that some gentleman me as anybody's judgment-and that I, for one, will move a vote of thanks. I should not be was unwilling to accede to it; I say so yet-and willing to tax the people of Indiana for the I think so yet; and that ifwe can get a suitable rent of any house in which to hold the sittings place elsewhere, in Indiana, I care:not if it is of the Convention. in Michigan City, or anywhere else, where a If the people of Indianapolis should now ten-.spirit of liberality would be manife sted by the der to us the free use of a hall in this city, I citizens of the place, I would take it in prefer- should prefer to sit here, rather than accept an ence to taking the Masonic Hall, for which they offer extorted from them by the liberal offer of wished to charge us $15 or $20 per day. I the people of Madison. Sir, I have nothing to wish it to be understood that I speak only for say against the people of this city. They have myself, and not for anybody else. I do not been long in the habit of asking what prices know that any other gentleman on the floor they please, and I apprehend that wherever we entertains the same feelings that I do, nor do I may go we shall find the disposition of the peo 91 -ple pretty much the same. Whenever people like a speech, for everything that he could have -have it in theirpower to obtain high prices they said had been much better said by others, but will not fail to avail themselves of the oppor- he desired to explain briefly the reason why he tunity. should vote for the amendment of the gentleIf we continue to sit here there is no doubt man from Sullivan. He intended to vote for it we shall suffer in health, but it will be so because it would settle a vexatious question, wherever we may go, for I do believe that the and he knew very well that as long as that causes I have mentioned have more to do with question was unsettled the business of the Conproducing disease than the unwholesomeness vention would be retarded. He looked upon it of the atmosphere of this Hall. We are, to be as settling definitely the question whether they sure, inconveniently situated, but it is better to would remain in Indianapolis or not, and it was suffer a little inconvenience than to run the ery material that that point should be deterrisk of incurring still greater. I hope that the mined. amendment of the gentleman from Sullivan I do not, said Mr. M., mean to be out-conwill be adopted. Some gentlemen will not plimented by the people of Madison. I am vote for it because it settles the question defi- ready to cultivate every kindly feeling with nitely. I am for settling the question. The them. They have shown themselvesvery liberal;'Legislature have deferred their meeting so that but I maintain that we have rooms better suited we may have ample time to complete our la- for the accommodation of the Convention than bors before their next meeting. can be found in Madison. I hope that this is the last time that the ques- I shall vote for the proposition of the gentletion of removal will be mooted in this Conven- man from Sullivan, as I have said, for the reason,tion. that it settles the question of removal. But it Mr. BASCOM said, he should vote against does not appear to me that we shall be bound the proposition of the gentleman from Sullivan, by it, if a sufficient cause for removal should -not that he desired to go to Madison, for he had arise hereafter. We shall still have power to made up his mind to vote against the report of rescind the resolution, and to go where we please'the committee, but because he did not think it at any time. right that they should bind themselves to sit in The yeas and nays were demanded upon -that Hall through the whole session; neither agreeing to the amendment, and, being taken, would he at present favor the proposition to go to were as follows: the Masonic Hall. He would not at this moment Those who voted in the affirmative were, vote twelve and a half cents a day for the use of Messrs. Allen, Anthony, Beach, Beard, Berry, that Hall. Neither was he in favor of allowing Biddle, Bryant, Butler, Carter, Chandler, Chapthe citizens of this place to pay for it for them. man, Chenowith, Clark of Hamilton, Clark of fHis constituents had not sent him here to ask Tippecanoe, Coats, Cole, Colfax, Crawford, Da-the citizens of this place to pay part of the rent vis of Madison, Dick, Dobson, Dunn of Perry, of a hall for the use of this Convention, and he Farrow, Foley, Garvin, Gootee, Gordon, Graham was not in favor of accepting any such dona- of Miami, Graham of Warrick, Haddon, Hall, tion. He agreed with the gentleman from Hamilton, Harbolt, Helmer, Hendricks, Hitt, Switzerland, and he was glad to find a majority Hogin, Hovey, Huff, Kendall of Wabash, Kenof the Convention of the same opinion, that dall of Warren, Kindley, Lockhart, Maguire, the proposition to take the Masonic Hall upon March, Mather, Mathis, May, McClelland, Mcany terms ought tobe rejected; but that was no Lean, Miller of Fulton, Miller of Gibson, Mil-reason why they should sit here, if they could roy, Moore, Morrison of Marion, Morrison of procure a better place. He did not think that Washington, Murray, Nave, Nofsinger, Read of they would be justified, however, in going to Clark, Ristine, Ritchey, Sherrod, Shoup, Sims, >Madison. He should vote against the amend- Smiley, Snook, Steele, Stevenson, Tague, Tayment of the gentleman from Sullivan. lor, Todd, Vanbenthusen, Wallace, Wolf, WunMr. NAVE said, that as there seemed to be derlich, Yocum, and Zenor-78. some difficulty in the minds of gentlemen here Those who voted in the negative were, as to the vote to be taken, he had risen, not to Messrs. Alexander, Badger, Balingall, Barmake a speech, but merely to propose a mode hour, Bascom, Bicknell, Blvthe, Borden, Bourne, of removing that difficulty. He proposed to Bowers, Bracken, Bright, Carr, Cookerly, Davis amend the amendment of the gentleman from of Parke, Davis of Vermillion, Dunn of JefSullivan, by adding the following: "Unless it ferson, Duzan, Edmonston, Fisher, Foster, Frisbecame imperiously necessary to adjourn to some bie, Gibson, Gregg, Holliday, Hardin, Hawkins, other place." Helm, Holman, Howe, Johnson, Jones, Kelso, The question being put onthe amendment to Kent, Logan, McFarland, Milligan, Mooney, the amendment, it, was rejected. Morgan, Mowrer, Niles, Owen, Pepper of Ohio, The question recurring on the amendment of Pepper of Crawford, Pettit, Prather, Read of the gentleman from Sullivan, Monroe, Schoonover, Smith of Ripley, Smith of Mr. MORRISON of Marion said, he did not Scott, Spann, Tannehill, Terry, Thomas, Watts, rintend to detain the Convention with anything Wheeler, Wiley, and Mr. President-59. 92 Mr. NAVE moved to amend the amendment binding them to stay in that Hall, for it might by adding the following: "Unless it shall be- be that a majority of the Convention would decome imperiously necessary for the Conven- cide upon moving to a more spacious and comtion to adjourn from this Hall before the final fortable one, the Masonic Hall for instance. adjournment, to any other room in this city." He for one had on several occasions suffered The question was taken on the amendment from the heat, and confined, unwholesome air of to the amendment, and it was not agreed to. this Hall, and he doubted not that others had been The question recurring upon the amendment similiarly incommoded. It was said by some proposed by the gentleman from Sullivan, (Mr. gentlemen that it was no matter if they did reWolfe,) solve to stay in this Hall, they could at any The yeas and nays were demanded, and ten time rescind the resolution. So they might! delegates rising to second the demand, they were They could put many contradictory things upordered. on the journal, and do other things equally The yeas and nays were then taken, with the foolish, but it would not be very creditable to following result:-yeas 78, nays 59. them. He considered that they ought not to Those who voted in the affirmative were, adopt a resolution binding them to do a certain Messrs, Allen, Anthony, Beach, Beard,Berry, thing, when they might be under the necessity Biddle, Bryant, Butler, Carter, Chandler, Chap- of rescinding it. He would move to lay the man, Chenowith, Clark of Hamilton, Clark of resolution on the table. Tippecanoe, Coats, Cole, Colfax, Crawford, Mr. GREGG said, he certainly should voteDavis of Madison, Dick, Dobson, Dunn of i against putting anything on record that would Perrya o, Farow, Foev, Garn, Gootee, Gor- eventually prove a contradictory. It appeared don, Graham of Miami, Graham of Warrick, that two committees had been raised by the Haddon, Hall, Hamilton, Harbolt, Helmer, Hen- Convention, charged with the duty of finding a dricks, Hitt, Hogin, Hovey, Huff, Kendall of more suitable and convenient Hall for the sitWabash, Kendall of Warren, Kindly, Lock- tings of the Convention. One committee had hart, Maguire, March, Mather, Mathis, May, Mc- made an effort to obtain a suitable room in this Clelland, McLean, Miller of Fulton, Miller of city, but their report was laid on the table.. Gibson, Milroy, Moore, Morrison of Marion, And at the suggestion of some friends he had Morrison of Washington, Murray, Nave, Nof- introduced a resolution providing for the formasinger, Read of Clark, Ristine, Ritchey, Sher- tion of a committee of five, whose duty it should rod;Shoup, Sims, Smiley, Snook, Steele, Ste- be to ascertain whether a more suitable room phenson, Tague, Taylor, Todd, Vanbenthusen could not be obtained in Madison for the sitWallace,, Wunderlich, Yocu, Zenor.' tings of the Convention, and it was adopted by Those who voted'in the negative were, a vote of more than two to one of the members Messrs. Alexander, Badger, Balingall,Barbour of that body The committee proceeded, in the Bascom, Bicknell, Blythe, Borden, Bourne, Bow- discharge of their duty, to the city of Madison,. ers, Bracken, Bright Carr, Davis of Parke, Davis and made inquiries for a suitable room, and the result of their investigations had been laid beofVermillion, Dunn of Jefferson, Duzan, Edmon- ore ther investigations had been laid beston, Fisher, Foster, Frisbie, Gibson, Gregg, fore the Convention in the shape of a report. Hoiliday, Hardin, Hawkins, Helm, Holman Another resolution had been offered by way of Howe, Johnson, Jones, Kelso, Kent, Logan, Mc- amendment to the resolution therein reported, Farland, Mooney, Morgan, Niles, Owen, Pepper pridngthe Convention should continue to sit of Ohio, Pepper of Crawford, Pettit, Prather, in this Hall during its deliberations, and until it Read of Monroe, Schoonover Smith of Ripley should have completed the labors assigned it, Smith of Scott, SpannTaneh, iTerry, Tom' which amendment had been adopted by a very as, Watts, Wheeler, Wiley, Work, Mr. PresT - decided majority of that Convention, thereby dent. y. clearly showing to the people of Madison that So the amendment was adopted.,the Convention was not in earnest when they On motion, sent word to them that they wanted a room, and The Convention then adjourned until two determining that in their opinion this Hall was, o'clock, P. n tM of all others, the most suitable. Hehad intended when the report of the committee was read to ~ —- ~- ~ call for a division of the question, for he knew AFTERNOON SESSION. that the first resolution reported by the committee expressed the sense of two-thirds of that The pending question being the adoption of body. They could, however, strike out in the the resolution reported by the Madison corn- second resolution the word " Madison," and inmittee, as amended, seit any other Hall in Indianapolis. It was Mr. PETTIT said, he was inclined to think plainly evident that they would have to move that the resolution ought not to be adopted as to some other Hall, as the papers on the Secreamended. The Convention had expressed an tarv's desk were even now immersed in water intention not to leave the city, and that was from the drippings of the rain through the rosufficient. They ought not to pass a resolution j tunda. 93 He hoped that the amendment would not be Mr. READ of Clark moved to amend the concurred in. resolution by striking out the word "biennial" Mr. EDMONSTON said he considered that and inserting the word "triennial." it would be treating the citizens of Madison The question being upon the adoption o the very impolitely, after the very generous offeramendment they had made, not only to reject the resolution The yeas and nays were demanded, ad, ereported by the committee, but to pass a reso- ing taken, were as follows: lution providing that they would not leave YEAS.-Messrs. Alexander, Allen, BalingaII, that Hall. He would move to lay the resolu- Blythe, Bowers, Bryant, Butler, Chenowith, tion as amended on the table. Clark of Hamilton, Coats, Cookerly, Dick, Mtir W edemnde te s a n Edmonston, Garvin, Gordon, Harbolt, Holliday, Mr. WOLFE demanded the. eas and nays, Holman,Kelso,Kilgore,Lockhart, Logan, March, and they were ordered and taken with the fol-athis m Clelland, McLean, tiller of ibson lowing result:-yeas 66, nays 58. 0 Mathis, McClelland, McLean, Miller of Gibson, loing result-ys, n 8.Morrison of Washington, Murray, Nave, Pepper Those who voted in the affirmative were, of Crawford, Prather, Read of Ciark, SchoonMessrs. Alexander, Allen, Anthony, Badger, over, Sherrod, Sims, Smiley, Smith of Scott, Balingali, Barbour, Bascom, Borden, Bourne, Tague, Trimbley, Wheeler, Wolfe, Yocum, and Bowers, Bracken, Bryant, Butler, Carr, Car- Mr President-43. ter, Chenowith, Colfax, Cookerly, Davis of NAYS.-Messrs. Anthony, Badger, Barbour, Parke, Davisof Vermillion, Edmonston,Fisher, Beach, Beard, Berry, Biddle, Borden, Bourne, Foster, Garvin, Haddon, Holliday, Hamilton, Bracken, Carr, Carter, Chandler, Chapman, Hardin, Hawkins, Helm, Hovey, Huff, Jones, Clark of Tippecanoe, Cole, Colfax, Crawford, Kelso, Kent, Kendall of Warren, Kinley, Lo- Davis of Madison, Davis of Vermillion, Davis of gan, March, McClelland, iller of Fulton, Mil- Parke, Dobson, Dunn of Jefferson, Farrow, let of Gibson, Milroy, Mooney, Morgan, Mow- Foly Foster, Frisbie Gootee, Graham of rer, Nofsinger, Owen, Pepper of Ohio, Pet- Miami, Graham of Warric, Gregg, Haddon, tit, Prather, Read of Clark, Read of Monroe, Hamilton, Hardin, Hawkins, Helmer, HenSchoonover, Snook, Smith of Ripley, Smith of dricks, Hitt, Hogin, Hovey, Howe, Huff, John-.Scott, Tannehill, Terry, Thomas, Todd, Trim- son, Jones, Kent, Kendall of Wabash, Kendall bly, Watts, Work, Mr. President. of Warren, Kindley, Maguire, Mather, May, McFarland, Miller of Fulton, Milroy, Mooney, Those who voted in the negative were, Moore, Morgan, Morrison of Marion, Mowrer, Messrs. Beach, Beard, Berry, Biddle, Blythe, Nofsinger, Owen, Pepper of Ohio, Pettit, Read Chandler, Chapman, Clark of Hamilton, Clark of Monroe, Ristine, Ritchey, Robinson, Shoup, of Tippecanoe, Coats, Cole, Crawford, Davis Snook, Smith of Ripley, Spann, Steele, Stevof Madison, Dick, Dobson, Dunn of Jefferson, enson, Tannehill, Terry, Thomas, Thornton, Farrow, Foley, Frisbie, Gootee, Gordon, Gra- Todd, Vanbenthusen, Wallace, Watts, Wiley, ham of Miami, Graham of Warrick, Gregg, Work, Wunderlich, and Zenor-S3. Harbolt, Helmer, Hendricks, Hitt, Hogin, Hol- So the amendment was not adopted. man, Johnson, Kendall of Wabash, Lockhart, The question recurring upon the adoption of Mathis, May, McFarland, McLean, Moore, Mor- the original resolution, rison of Marion, Morrison of Washington, Nave, Mr. DUNN of Jefferson said, he thought Pepper of Crawford, Ristine, Sherrod, Shoup, this a very important resolution. He expected Sims, Smiley, Spann, Steele, Tague, Vanben- himself to vote for it. Still, he thought it thusen, Wallace, Wheeler, Wiley, Wunderlich, ought to be duly and deliberately considered. Yocum, Zenor. To send to a committee so important a resoluThe CHAIR announced the first business in tion and of an imperative character, now when >order to be the reading of the Constitution by so many members were absent, he thought clauses, for the purpose of reference, under the would be rather a bad precedent. Therefore, resolution of Mr. Pettit offered on yesterday, he would move to amend the resolution, by inand made the special order for 2 o'clock to- serting at the proper place the words, "inquire day. into the expediency of." Mr. KELSO said, it seemed to him that this On motion, by Mr. KELSO, the special or- matter had been sufficiently discussed beore der was postponed until to-morrow morning at s der was postponed until to-mrrow morning a the people, and, so far as he knew, this change to biennial sessions of the Legislature was The CHAIR announced the next business in made a leading proposition throughout the State..order to be the resolution submitted by Mr. He thought it might as well be ascertained to-day Edmonston on the 14th inst., to-wit: as at any other time, whether a majority were Resolved, That the committee on the Legis- in favor of it or not; and let the vote of the lative Department be instructed to insert a pro- Convention upon the resolution be taken as vision in the amended Constitution adopting the sense of the body upon this subject. All biennial instead of annual sessions of the Leg- he asked was leave to record his vote in favor islature. of the resolution. 94 The question being taken upon the amend- found to cost as much as the regular sessions. ment of the gentleman from Jefferson, it was j He admitted that, so far as he understood the. not agreed to. wishes of his constituents, they would be in Mr. GRAHAM of Warrick proposed to favor of biennial or even triennial, sessions, if amend the resolution by adding a proviso to the the Legislature were not restrained from the effect that the Governor shall have power to passage of local laws, and confined to their convene the Legislature at any time, in case of; proper sphere of duty. But if, in this respect,. an emergency. the Legislature were restrained by the ConstiThis amendment was agreed to. tution, lie believed that not only his constituMr. CLARK of Tippecanoe proposed to ents but the people of the State atlarge, would amend the resolution by striking out the word be in favor of annual sessions. "biennial" and inserting in lieu thereof the 1 He acquiesced in the suggestion of the genword "annual." tleman from Posey, (Mr. Owen,) and withdrew Mr. OWEN suggested to the gentleman his motion to amend. from Tippecanoe that a direct vote'upon the Mr. WATTS proposed to amend the resoluresolution by yeas and nays would have pre- tion by adding the following: cisely the same effect. "And the House of Representatives shall conJr. CLARK of TJppecanoe acqinesced n: sist of sixty-six members, and the Senate of the suggestion of Mr. Owen, and said, he knew thirty-three members." this question had been mooted before all tihe ame t ws people; but it depended upon other questions.as eec He thought the reason why the people demand-, r PRATHER proposed to amend by ined biennial sessions of the Legislature, was the serting a clause to the effect tht te sessions nf llequency lof the Legislature shall be limited to a term frequency of change in local legislation. Now, it had been already proposed here, and he ot exceeding sixtyday. thought the people of the State at large had Ts amendment was also rejected. determined, that the Legislature should be re-.Mr MILLER of Fulton moved to amend by strained from the enactment of local laws; and inserting the llowing: that their deliberations should be confined to "Provided, however, that the Leislature may, the enactmentof laws of general interest-laws by a vote of the people, without a convention in which a change would not be made, unless for that purpose, alter to annual or triennial it were called for by some pressing emergency. sessions, having first provided for taking such It was a proverb in free governments, that vote"where annual elections end, tyranny begins." Which was decided in the negative. The Legislature was the strength of all the de- The question recurring on the adoption of partments of the Government. The law mak- the original resolution, ing power always exercised the most direct Mr. READ of Clark said, being called on to authority over the government; and, if the vote upon the resolution proposing biennial agents in this department, instead of being fre- sessions of the Legislature, he desired to say quently called to account were removed one one word. Upon this question, above all othyear further from the supervision of the people, ers, he felt himself to be instructed. He was they would be so much more likely to abuse satisfied that this proposition expressed the their power. Whereas, the more frequently unanimous wish of his constituents; and from they could be brought under the supervision of his own experience in the Legislature, he felt the people, the more anxious they would be to the most abiding conviction of the expediency do the will of the people. He apprehended that of this change. He found, also, that in nearly the objections to annual sessions, on the score all the States where new constitutions had of economy, would be entirely removed, if the been adopted, they had engrafted this provision. Legislature were restrained from the passage Such was the result of the experience of threeof local laws. The business of legislation would fourths of the States of this Union; and this then be confined to its proper sphere; the ses- Convention should take advantage of the lessions would not be so long, and consequently, sons derived from their experience. He vennot attended with such a vast expense for tured to affirm, that, if the matter were referred printing, &c. And besides, if annual sessions to the people of the State, nine-tenths of them were continued, the Legislative body would act would be in favor of biennial or triennial sesevery year as a sort of committee of inquest sions. Let gentlemen reflect for a moment, upon the State officers; and there was a neces- and look back upon the session of last winter. sity for some such supervision as this, which no During the session of the last Legislature alone other body could furnish; there could be no some seven hundred acts were passed, mostly substitute for the Legislature in this matter. of a local nature. Local legislation would Moreover, in the event of the establishment of creep into that body. It could not be kept biennial sessions, there would frequently arise a out. And then, another Legislature would. necessity for a call of the Legislature, in special come in and repeal and alter these new laws, session; and these special sessions would be in many cases, before the people, or even many 95 of the lawyers, were aware of their existence. as often as possible; and, absurd as it might Whereas, if the sessions of the Legislature seem, he would, if possible, require the Legiswere biennial, with proper limitations and re- lature to meet oftener than once a year, whenstraints upon their powers, the laws would be ever it was necessary. He desired gentlemen better known and better executed; and there to distinguish carefully between the use and would be saved a vast amount of the public the abuse of a good thing; between making money. But as it was now, the Representa- use of the legislative power for the advantage of tives danced and the people paid the fiddler. the people, and curbing the power of the LegMr. BIDDLE said, he had not expected that islacure. He maintained that time would corupon this question the Convention would come rect this evil, and that nothing but time could to a vote now; nor was he very well prepared correct it. For if they made the sessions bito discuss it. He did not know that he could ennial, it would be found that the Legislature be very well prepared for this discussion; but would just do twice as much business in a seshe had hastily noted one or two points, which, sion. Besides, the people would not like to sufby the indulgence of the Convention, he would fer under the effects of bad laws for so long a throw out. The gentleman who had just con- period as two years. Hasty legislation was an cluded his remarks had declared himself to be evil, and therefore they should have a hasty instructed in favor of this proposition. He did method of remedying the evil, and this was one not blame him, therefore, for the support which of the reasons why he would never cast a vote he gave to it. He (Mr. B.) should probably do to restrain the power of legislation. It was the same thing under the same circumstances; an axiom in his notions of government, that but that gentleman had expressed his belief that the moment delegated power was removed fara large majority of the people of' te State were ther from its original source, that moment a in favor of biennial or triennial sessions. He step was taken toward despotism. A despot(Mr. B.) was in favor of neither; on the con- ism was nothing more than a government trary, his course heretofore had shown him to where this power was so far removed from the be emphatically in favor of ainual sessions; people, that there was no remedy short of a and the reason why he desired to say a word resort to revolution. A pure democracy was upon this question now, was, because he feared impracticable; but he would not render it still the impression of the gentleman from Clark more impracticable, by carrying political pow(Mr. Read) was but too true; and laboring un- er still farther away from its rightful source. der the fear that the resolution would pass, he There was much room for amplification in the was unwilling to let it go to the vote without point which he had taken, namely, restricting saying a few words. It seemed to him that the the powers of Legislation. But he would not success of this proposition would be progress- now detain the Convention to elaborate it. ing in a retrograde direction. It would be im- The people themselves had the remedy in their possible for any argument, such as he had yet own hands, against the excesses of Legislation, heard, in favor of it, to convince him that this in the right of instruction. Did their Reprewould not be a removal of the power which be- resentatives make too many laws, let the peolonged to the people further from its original pie tell them so, and warn them against it. source. What was the objection to annuali But if the accountability of their agents to sessions? It was, that they induced too much the sovereign power were postponed two years, legislation. But he denied that the remedy the evil would be made worse. The further was to make the sessions biennial. Why was the accountability of any officer was removed it that they had too much legislation? He af- from the sovereign power, the wider was the firmed that this evil was an incident to every departure from the true idea of a democracy new government. This newly settled State or a republican government. was made up, from year to year, of minds taken He assumed that the popular expressions of from every section of the Union, and every part opinion were the only true indices of what the of the world; and it was inevitable that, amongst law ought to be; and, as he had before said, if men educated under every form of government it were practicable, he would have it so contrived, upon earth, there would be conflicts of opinion that the expression of the popular will could be in legislation, till they should all become whole- taken oftener than once a year. The oftener hearted Hoosiers-a designation which he was these agents met the sovereign power, the in the habit of using, and it was one to be proud more faithful would be the expression of the of. What was the object of legislation 1 It popular will. But, to seal up this expression was to give form and expression to the opinions for two years would be to take one step in a of the people; and he held, that the oftener direction adverse to the progress of true dethey could get that expression, the nearer they mocracy. He would give opportunities for the would approach to a perfect republican govern- most frequent expressions of the popular will. ment. He admitted that too much legislation The oftener the better. And the higher the was an evil; but too much power to legislate grade of civilization, the more necessity for the never was, and never could be, an evil. He application of this doctrine. For, going into would allow the people to express their opinion barbarous nations, it would be found that they 96 have but few laws, handed down from genera. every man would find food for reflection. He tion to generation, but few notions of right and could not expect to change the mind of any wrong which continue from age to age. The man who had maturely considered the subject. more enlightened the people, the more intricate But he had some experience in dealing with the were their wants. For this reason, also, he minds of others, and knew how to respect dlfcould never consent to take the retrograde step ference of opinion. He entertained these views proposed in the resolution. He would keep the as correct, beyond a doubt; and, therefore, he delegated power as near as possible to the sov- advocated them. He expressed his opinions freeereign power. Why, it was one of the troubles ly, and if they could benefit others he should be in the judiciary of this country, that justice glad of it; and if not, at least, he enjoyed the could not be obtained as speedily as desirable. reflection of having discharged his duty. And what was the remedy. Why, to make Mr. ALLEN said, that lie was in favor of the sessions of the courts as frequent as pos- triennial instead of biennial sessions, but it sible. Under the present judicial arrangements seemed that a majority of the Convention were for the State, when the court meets only once in favor of biennial sessions, and the Convenin six months, a man's rights were liable to be tion having voted down triennial sessions, of delayed for that length of time. Whereas, course he would now vote for biennial sessions. whensoever justice was infringed, her sword The reasons urged by the gentleman from Tipshould be ready to redress the wrong. This pecanoe (Mr. Clark) for annual sessions were was the perfection of government in theory; some of the very reasons why he would vote for and, although it could not be strictly attained biennial sessions. He had no doubt, from the in practice, yet it was better to approximate expression which he had heard from members, towards it, than to retrogade from it. He was and from the expression of the people, so far as willing to stand still, in reference to the matter he had heard an expression, that amendments before the Convention; but he was unwilling would be incorporated into the new Constitution to retrograde; he was unwilling to take a step prohibiting the Legislature from this miserable in a direction contrary to the true remedy. jsystem of local legislation that now existed, and He feared the result of th determination of ithat they would also be prohibited from the pasthis question by the Convention, and for that sage of special acts of incorporation, and that reason he had attempted, in this manner, briefly the election of State officers and Judges would to deter them from hasty action. But, if gen- be taken from the Legislature and placed in the tiemen were instructed, they would, of course, hands of the people where it properly belonged. vote accordingly; and if their instructions were All these amendments would, no doubt, be the to adopt the proposition, he would be satisfied result of the deliberations of this body; and that the public voice had been expressed. But, if this should be the result, many of the subjects at present, he was slow to believe that such which now occupied the time of the Legislature was the mind of the people. His own opinions would be taken away, and the necessity of anwere well known in the canvass. He had nual sessions wholly obviated. It was contendalways expressed the views that he had now ed by the gentleman from Cass (Mr. Biddle) indicated-that biennial sessions were not the that the change contemplated by the resolution remedy for the evil complained of; that the would be a retrograde movement and that its evil was an inherent one in all the new States, tendency was to remove the officers further from which time alone would correct. Every man the people. Now, it did not seem to him that that came into the State from Pennsylvania, a change ot the time of the sessions of the LegOhio, or any other State, or perhaps some foreign islature from annual to biennial sessions, as concountry, brought along with him his own no- templated by the resolution, or a change of the tions of law which he had imbibed in his manner of electing State officers, would produce childhood. Could uniformity of legislation any radical change in our present system of be expected amongst such a people 2 or could government or in the manner of doing business gentlemen expect to attain to that uniformity in the Legislature. The question was simply by muzzling the voice of the people 3 Expe- whether the Legislature could not perform all rience had already shown, that after a time this the business necessary to be performed by them vibration of public opinion would gradually and meet only once in two years; in other words settle down upon the rule of right; then he would not biennial sessions meet the exigencies would let time do its work. He would not of that branch of our State government? muzzle the popular expression, much less would This, he thought, was beyond a question. he put such a principle as this in the organic He was satisfied that when the Legislature law, which might not be again changed for a should be prohibited from their present system of quarter of a century. local and special legislation; when the election But he would not detain the Convention. -of State officers should be taken from the LegThese were his views. They were somewhat islature and placed in the hands of the people; abstract, he confessed, but they could be made when these and some other amendments should practical. He had confined himself to a few be engrafted into the new Constitution, taking general ideas, upon which he thought, perhaps, away from the Legislature the consideration of 97 so many subjects which now occupied so much "And the Governor, in his proclamation conof their time and attention, that the necessity vening the Legislature, shall state specificalof annual sessions would entirely cease; and ly the subjects which they shall consider, and that the Legislature could, under this new no other subjects shall be taken into considerorder of things, meet once in two years and per- ation at such special session." form all their duties in less time than is now re- The amendment was not agreed to. quired, under their present system of legisla- The question being upon the adoption of the tion. He should, therefore, vote for the resolu- Resolution, tion. ir. MURRAY observe epeople in The yeas and nays were demanded, and were Mr. MURRAY observed, that the people in taken with the following result: his part of the State were clearly and entirely in favor of biennial sessions. It was a general AYES-Messrs. Alexander, Alien, Anthony, complaint among them that the laws of the Badger, Balinall, Barbour, Bascom, Beach, State were continually fluctuating. The chang-Bear Berry, Bicknell, Blythe, Borden,Bourne, es made were of such frequent occurrence Bowers, Bracken, Bryant, Butler, Carr, Carter, that the people did not know what the laws Chandler, Chenowith, Clark of Hamilton, were; and, of course, they could not be obeyed Coats, Cole, Colfax, Cookerly, Crawford, Daby men who did not know when they had viola- vis of Parke, Davis of Vermillion, Dick, Dobtedthem. That was impossible. And a further son, Dunn of Jefferson, Dunn of Perry, &c., evil resulting from this continual change was, Edmonston, Farrow, Fisher, Foley, Foster, that they were not administered a sufficient Frisbie, Garvin, Gootee, Gordon, Graham of length of time for the people to ascertainwheth- Miami, Graham of Warrick, Gregg, Haddon, er their effect was good or evil. In all govern- Hollday, Hamilton, Harbolt, Hardin, Hawkins, ments, a want of stability in the laws was con- Helm, Helmer, Hendricks, Hitt, Hogin, Holsidered a very great evil;-for where the laws man, Hovey, Howe, Huff, Johnson,Jones, Kelwere fixed and permanent, the people became so, Kent, Kendall of Wabash, Kendall of Waracquainted with them, and knew what they had ren, Kinley, Lockhart, Logan, March, Mather, to obey. If they found upon trial that they Mathis, May, McClelland, McFarland, McLean, were stringent and oppressive they could then Miller of Fulton, Miller of Gibson, Milroy, cause their Legislators to ameliorate them, and Mooney, Moore, Morgan, Morrison of Marion, thus remedy the evil. Morrison of Washington, Mowrer, Murray, With regard to the effect of this measure upon Nave, Nofsinger, Owen, Pepper of Ohio, Pepthe elections, he considered that on that point per of Crawford, Prather, Read of Clark, Read was to be realized one of its happiest results. of Monroe, Ritchey, Schoonover, Sherrod, The frequent elections that were held, kept men Shoup, Sims, Smiley, Snook, Smith of Ripley, in a constant turmoil. The excitement atten- Smith of Scott, Spann, Steele, Stevenson, dant upon one election would hardly subside Tague, Tannehill, Terry, Thomas, Todd, Trimbefore another election would come round and bly, Vanbenthusen, Watts, Wheeler, Wolfe, there was nothing but commotion and excite- Work, Wunderlich, Yocum, Zenor, Mr. Presiment among the people continually. dent-14. If the period of holding office was also con- NOEs-Messrs. Biddle, Chapman, Cark of fined to one term it would do away with the Tippecanoe, Maguire, Wallace-5. present system of electioneering, so injurious The Convention adjourned. to the faithful performance of the duties of office;-for if the period of holding office, closed after the first term had expired, there would be more of justice and impartiality in the adminis- e HURSDAY, OCTOBER 1t, 1850. tration of their duties. These reforms were The Convention met pursuant to adjournment, not new and untried reforms. The election of and was opened with prayer by the Rev. i,. all the officers of the State, and the system of H. JAMESON biennial sessions, were measures that had been The journal of the preceding day having adopted in several of the States, and, so far as been read, he knew,with the happiest results. The PRES1EDT announced the first thing Mr. FOSTER moved to amend the resolu- i in order, to be the reading of the Constitution, tion by inserting the following: ~ which by the resolution of Mr. Pettit was made "And that the sessions of the Legislature | the special order for this morning, at 9 o'clock. outreduction to one-half of the per diem al- g up bills, and reading them by sections, the lowance of the members." preamble was generally read last; but he sva no good reason, for the adoption of such a course The question being taken upon the proposed in the present case. The reason of this course amendment, it was not agreed to. being pursued generally was, because it was not Mr. HARDIN moved to amend the resolu- known until the bill was gone through with tion by adopting the following: what amendments would be made, and it was 7 98 necessary tomake the preamble correspond with made a great deal of difference in the applicathe bill. But it was not proposed with respect tion of law to the question. Legal gento the simpler reference of these amendments tiemen in defence of the replevin law of the to make any change. The only question that State, had always stated that its meaning was could occasion debate, was that of determining that there was no change in the obligation of to what committees these articles should be re- the contract-that it was valid, but, that they ferred. He insisted that the preamble ought could make a change in the remedy; hence if first to be read and referred. two men agreed in writing to pay money on a The preamble was then read and referred to certain day, the Legislature could step in by law the committee on miscellaneous provisions.. and say, this may be paid by a certain arrangeThe first article of the Constitution was then ment on the justice's docket, in two, four, or eight read, and the question being upon its reference, months. Thus the obligation of the contract, Mr. SMITH of Ripley stated, that he felt or the validity of the contract, was not infringbound to preserve the bill of rights in its pres- ed but the remedy was infringed. He wanted ent form, and he desired that it should be re- the law in this point so set forth that there ferred to the committee on the rights and priv- should be a plain rule of action in the underileges of the inhabitants of this State. At standing of contracts. He did not want hair some future day he should offer an imperative splitting distinctions between validity and obliresolution providing that the committee report gation, to set contracts aside. it in its present shape. He would move that The question was then put on the motion of it be read and referred to the committee on the the gentleman from Owen, (Mr. Dobson,) and rights and privileges of the inhabitants of this it was agreed to. State entire. This motion would also save the The second article was then read, and refertime of the Convention, and dispense with con- red to the committee on miscellaneous prosiderable journalizing. visions. Mr. DOBSON moved to amend the motion The first three sections of the third article of the gentleman from Ripley, by adding with having been read and referred, and the question instructions to strike out the word "validity" in being upon the reference of the fourth section, the eighteenth section and insert the word "ob- Mr. BRIGHT said, that references to ligation," so as to make the article conform with different committees of sections in the same the Constitution of the United States, which article would inevitably produce confusion in provided that no State should pass any law im- the action of the committees, and incongruity pairing the obligation of contracts. in the Constitution itself. He considered that The question was then taken upon the amend- the various sections of this article should all be ment of the gentleman from Owen, (Mr. Dob- referred to the committee on the legislative son,) and it was rejected. department. Here they were attempting to The question then recurring upon the mo- refer one section of this article to the committion of the gentleman from Ripley, (Mr. Smith,) tee on the election franchise, another section it was decided in the affirmative. to another committee, and so on, when these Mr. DOBSON desired to move instructions subjects were all necessarily connected with the to the committee to which this bill of rights organization of the Legislature. had just been referred, to strike out the word Mr. PETTIT said, he was very glad to hear "validity," and insert the word "obligation," in the remarks of the gentlemen from Jefferson, the eighteenth section of the bill. One of the and he only wished that the gentleman had objects in revising the present Constitution was taken part in the debate which occurred upon to do away with all extraneous legislation, and his proposition of referring the entire Constituit was a well known fact, that this slight vari- tion to three committees. They came now to ance of the State Constitution with the Con- the point where the absurdity of the large numstitution of the United States, the difference ber of standing committees organized was apbetween the word "validity" and the word "ob- parent. As these committees were organized. ligation," led to discussions in the Legislature, however, they were necessarily compelled to every winter, that cost the State thousands of divide and apportion out the various sections of dollars. the Constitution to those committees, in the The PRESIDENT stated that instructions best manner possible. The various sections of of an imperative character would have to lie this article were so connected together that the over one day, under the rule. j distribution of them to different committees Mr. DOBSON said, he was willing to make would lead to great confusion in their action; it a resolution of enquiry. and he thought that the entire article should Mr. MORRISON of Marion said, he hoped be referred to the legislative committee. that the suggestion of the gentleman from Mr. WOLFE remarked that, as they were Cwen (Mr. Dobson) would be adopted. Upon getting into difficulty, with regard to the referthe face of it there would appear to the general ence of the Constitution, they had better begin reader but little dieffrence-but there was a to retrace their steps, and decide upon some nice hair-splitting distinction drawn, which better mode of distribution. He must acknowl 99 edge that he did not see how the business of the whole matter again. But as to these particuConvention would be advanced by the present lar officers, and the manner of their election, mode of referring the Constitution. It would he would suggest that the more appropriate be far better to reconsider the motion upon reference would be to the committee, on the which the Convention had proceeded with the elective franchise. It was a question as to the present mode of reference, and go at once into mode of creating these officers, and there were committee of the whole, take up the Constitu- one half-dozen propositions now before the tion, article by article, agree upon the amend- Convention, proposing to change the mode of ments necessary, and refer them to appropriate their appointment, and to direct that they shall committees, who would then report the various be elected by the people, and he believed there articles of the new Constitution. was a large majority of the Convention in favor Mr. NILES observed, that he could not see of that proposition. It appeared to him that that any such embarrassment, inconvenience, the appropriate committee would be the one and confusion would result from the present he had indicated. He would move to amend mode of referring the Constitution, as seemed the motion of the gentleman from Allen, so as to be anticipated by the gentleman from Jeffer- to refer this subject to the committee on the son and the gentleman from Tippecanoe. In elective franchise and the apportionment of the remarks he had made upon the subject the representation. other day, he had stated it as his opinion that The PRESIDENT remarked, that the questhere were more committees raised than was tions must be put in the order in which the monecessary; but as those committees had been tions were made. appointed, the various articles of the Constitu- The question would be first on the reference tion should be referred to them, and he could to the committee on State officers other than not see how any inconvenience or confusion executive or judiciary. would result from the adoption of such a course. Mr. PETTIT said, he did not understand For instance: take section seventh, which pro- that it was requisite that this subject should be vided that no man should be eligible to a seat considered by the committee on the elective in the Senate under the age of twenty-five. franchise. This was a question as to how the That was a clear and distinct proposition of officers of State should be elected, whereas the itself, and what did it matter whether the ques- duty of the committee on the elective franchise tion was considered and reported upon by the was to prescribe the manner in which the electcommittee on the legislative department or ive franchise should be exercised, and who some other committee? It would be reported should be permitted to exercise it. It might upon in some form, and the report could be be proper, if there were such a committee, that either amended or adopted, and then moulded it should go to a committee on the tenure of into the new Constitution. It was true these office. sections might be reported disconnectedly at The question being taken on the motion to first, but still they would all be reported in the refer the section to the committee on State ofproper form, and distinctly expressed, and they ficers other than executive and judiciary, were not to be thrown together hastily, sent to It was decided in the affirmative. the printer, and embodied in the Constitution, The remaining articles of the Constitution but were to be referred to the committee on were then severally read and referred. phraseology and revision. Each distinct sub- CONTESTED ELECTIONS. ject would be then inserted by that committee in its appropriate place, and the Constitution The ftllowing resolution, offered by Mr finally drafted. He could see no necessity for Wolfe, on the 15th inst., which had been laid finally drafted. He could see no necessity for any difficulty arising on this point. over, was then taken up for consideration: The question was then taken on the refer- Resolved, That in our amended Constitution ence of the fourth section to the committee on it be provided that all contested elections, as far the legislative department, anditwas agreed to. as practicable, be referred back to the people, The remaining sections of the third article and by them decided. were then read and referred. The resolution having been read, Mr. WOLFE The first twenty sections of the fourth article said, he hoped the Convention would give to having been read and referred, and the ques- this resolution its favorable consideration. He tion being upon the reference of the twenty- thought it would be far better to have all cases first section, of contested elections decided where the elecMr. BORDEN moved to refer the twenty- tion took place. He understood there was a first section to the committee on State officers contested election before the Convention. To other than the executive and judiciary. take that as an example, instead of taking up Mr. KELSO said, he had not, as yet, troubled the time of a hundred and fifty men in taking himself as to the reference of any portion of evidence and determining that case, he thought the Constitution, nor did he care much what it would be much more satisfactory, and it cerparticular direction they took, for ne thought it tainly would be more economical, to let the very likely they would have to go over the people of Union county decide it for themselvee. 100 If the resolution needed any amendment, he He had been opposed to it from the first. was willing it should be amended so as to suit There was no expression of the sense of the the viewsof gentlemen, but he certainly thought Convention contained in them, and he had no that some such proposition ought to be adopted. doubt that each one of the members of the Mr. EDMONSTON moved to amend the Convention had already determined in his own resolution so as to make it a resolution of in- mind what sort of a Constitution he wished to quiry, directed to the committee on the elective have adopted. He had no doubt that each one franchise. had canvassed before the people the different The resolution was then adopted. amendments proposed to be made in the Constitution. All this had been pre-arranged REPRESENTATIVE DISTRICTS. in their own minds, and all that was requisite, The following resolution, offered by Mr. therefore, was for each member to ascertain the STEVENSON, on the 18th, inst., which had sense of this body, in regard to such amendbeen laid over, was then taken up for con- ments as he desired should be made. When sideration: this was done the whole work would be accomResolved, That the committee on the Legis- plished, and until this was done they would have lative Department be instructed to report the accomplished nothing. following as a part of the amended Constitu- The great thing to be desired was that there tion, viz.: "Th n members of the House of should be an expression of the sense of the Representatives shall be elected by single dis- Convention in regard to the various propositricts, such districts to be bounded by county, tions for amendment, and when that expression precinct, town, or ward lines, to consist of con- was obtained, the committees would have nothtiguous territory, and be in as compact form as ing to do but to arrange the various propositions. practicable, provided that parts of different The Convention might proceed for weeks counties shall not be united to form represent- in passing resolutions of inquiry, and when the ative districts." committees reported back the propositions conThe resolution having been read, cerning which they were directed to inquire, Mr. STEVENSON said, that he thought the they would be as far from having the sense of members of the Legislature ought to be elected the Convention upon them as before. It was by single districts; this wvould obviate a great only postponing the action of the Convention. many inconveniences. Where counties were He was utterly opposed to resolutions of inquiunited for the purpose of electing representa- ry, for as he had said, they accomplished nothing, tives, the county seats generally controlled the for when the sense of the committee was taken elections. He hoped the resolution would be they were as far as ever from having the sense adopted. of the Convention. Then why not, said he, at Mr. SMITH of Ripley said, that he would once ascertain, as in this case, whether you inmerely remark that he was opposed to the prop- tend to have single or double Representative osition of the gentleman from Putnam. He District. It was a question upon which he, for did not intend to discuss the resolution at this one,had made up his mind. He was in favor of time, but to express his disapprobation of it. single districts. What injustice, he would ask, The gentleman's objection to the present plan could possibly arise from single Representative of uniting counties for the purpose of elections Districts-each county having a right to elect was, that it gave to the county seats the con- its own representatives-so that there could trol of the elections, and he proposed, therefore, be no combination between the candidates or thattheelectionsbeheldin single districts. But the friends of the candidates; no mutual agreeaccording to the gentleman's idea of dividing ment to aid each other-on the principle "you the county, the county seat would not loose vote for me, I'll vote for you." its influence; on the contrary, it would exercise But where the single district system prevails, its influence upon both sections, but that was the people vote for the man of their choice, and not the greatest evil to be apprehended: it the result is, the will of the people is justly and would have the effect of building up political clearly expressed. It appeared to him it was cliques and destroying the good feeling that ex- the safest way, and that it would be more satisists under the present system. He would, when factory than any other. He was aware there in order, move to amend the resolution, so as to would always be around the county seat aset of make it a resolution of inquiry. village politicians who would always more or less Mr. PEPPER of Ohio said he had an amend- influence every election. The principle was ment to offer. the same in double Representative Districts. The PRESIDENT reminded the gentleman It would be wrong to say that you will have that there was an amendment already pending. double Senatorial Districts; and if it was wrong Mr. STEVENSON said, he trusted the to have double Senatorial Districts, it was equalamendment of the delegate from Ripley would ly wrong to have double Representative Disnot be adopted. It appeared to him that very tricts. He hoped that the decision would be little would be accomplished by referring these made upon the question of adopting the princiresolutions of inquiry to committees. ple contained in the propositions at once; by 101 this means they would the more speedily ac- LISTINCTIONS ON ACCOUNT OF COLOR. complish the end they had in view, than by any Mr. OWEN, from the standing committee other planthat could be adopted. on the rights and privileges of the inhabitants Mr. COOKERLY said, he trusted that the of the State, submitted the following report: amendment would prevail. This was a very. P: Te c e on important question, and it was one that was MR. PRESIDENT: The cominittee "on the new important quemost of the ebert was one thsupposed. At rights and privileges of the inhabitants of this w t' m o t. State," to whom was referred the memorial preleast, it had not been discussed in his county, sente on behlf of a eetig of Fiens the andhe thought, under the circumstances, it sented on behalf of a meeting of Friends of the and he thought, under the circumstances, it should either be amended so as to make it a Congregational Order, in ublin, Wane counr resolution of inquiry, or that its consideration ty, prng that all provisions making distinctions of color be excluded froinm the Constitushould be postponed to some future day. If the tion c u ( tion, have had the subject under consideration, amendment should not prevail, he would move and have instructed me to report, that, in their to postpone the further consideration of the sub- anoi hon instructed me to report, the premiseir ject until next Saturday week. opinion, it is inexpedient to act in the premises. ject until next Saturday week. h d They report back the memorial, and recomMr. PEPPER of Ohio said, he hoped the Mr. PEPPER of Ohio said, he hoped th mend that it be laid on the table. And they gentleman from Ripey (Mr. Smith) would ask to be discharged from the further considerawithdraw his amendment, and allow the propo- tion of the subject. sition to be postponed,as suggested by the gen-on the c tt tleman from Vigo, (Mr. Cookerly.) Which was concurred in, and the committee The question being taken upon the amend- was discharged from the further consideration ment, it was decided in the affirmative. of the subject. And then the resolution as amended was ad- Mr. OWEN, from the same committee, to opted. which had been referred the resolution instructEXPLANATION. ing them to inquire into the expediency of Mir. SHOUP moved thatthe Convention ad- abolishing, by Constitutional enactment, the journ, but he withdrew the motion atthe request punishment of death in this State, reported the of q same back to the Convention, with the expression of opinion that the subject of the resoluMr. KELSO, to enable him to make a brief tion did not come distinctly within the jurisexplanation. The committee on elections, he diction of the committee, and with a recommendsaid, had before them the matter of the contest- ation that it be referred to the standing coned election from Union county, and they were mittee on criminal law. desirous of getting along with it as speedily as Mr. COOKERLY moved to refer the resolupossible. At the request of the parties they tion to the select committee upon the subject of had adjourned last night to give the counsel an the abolition of capital punishment. opportunity to prepare the papers, and they Mr. SMITH of Ripley inquired whether a would be ready to present the case at about motion to change the reference would not be three o'clock this afternoon. Most of the gen- equivalent to a proposition to amend the report! tlemen engaged in the case being elderly men, The PRESIDENT replied in the affirmative. and unwilling to go out at night, the commit- The Chair understood that the Convention had tee, for this reason, desired to have leave to sit no right to amend the report of a committee. this afternoon. To accommodate this and other They might amend a resolution or a proposition committees, which he knew to be desirous of reported, but they had not the right to amend sitting, he would move that the Convention ad- the report; for if that were done, then it would journ until to-morrow morning at nine o'clock. no longer be the report of the committee. Mr. STEVENSON suggested that the corn- Mr. SMITH observed that the reference mittee might have leave to sit during the sitting was a part of the resolution. of the Convention. The PRESIDENT said, the report recomMr. KELSO said that might be done. But mended that there be given a certain direction pending the consideration of important ques- to the resolution. If the gentleman desired to tions, he would like to be here. He adhered to refer it to some other committee than that inhis motion, dicated in the report, as a matter of course, he And the Convention adjourned till to-morrow would vote against concurrence in the report, morning at nine o'clock. and if the report should be rejected, then he' would move to refer to another committee............. i Mr. KELSO said, he would have to refuse to l concur in the recommendation of the committee; and he disliked very much to vote against FRIDAY, OAcT. 18, 1850. F' 18, - 8 the report of any committee containing nothing Prayer by the Rev. Mr. COOPER. more wrong than this. But it seemed to him On motion, by Mr. JOHNSON, leave of ab- to be absurd to send this resolution to the comsence, for a few days, was granted to Mr. mittee on criminal law, so long as they had alTAGUE. ready a special committee upon the very sub 102 ject of the resolution. He would prefer to re- from sickness, or other cause, eight or ten memcommit the proposition to the committee on the bers might be necessarily absent from their plarights and privileges of the inhabitants of the places, and so the advantages of important legisState, with instructions to report a recommen- lation might be lost to the State. Thirty-four dation that it be referred to the select commit- years practice upon the existing majority princitee. pie had been followed by no evil result whatevMr. OWEN said, he believed it was usually er, and he was in favor of continuing it. He considered parliamentary wherever a select would move to amend the resolution, so as to committee was to be raised, that there should make it a proposition of inquiry. be appointed upon that committee a majority Mr. STEVENSON said, he was opposed to favorable to the igrayer of the petition or what- all resolutions of inquiry,because they expresssoever was the cause of raising the committee. ed no sense of the Convention; but he regardUnder the circumstances, therefore, he should ed all imperative resolutions which they might suppose it likely, that this select committee, or a pass, as of some importance. He was willing majority of them, would report a proposition that the Convention should now settle the in favor of the abolition of the penalty of death. question involved in this resolution. If it He meant to say, that when this select commit- should be their wish that it should require a tee was raised, it was, perhaps, with a view of majority of all the members of the Legislature having a report in favor of the abolition of the to pass a law, and if that wish were expressed death penalty; and to that he had no ojection. by the adoption of the resolution, something But if the object had been to take the subject would have been done-the sense of the body away, altogethe,r from the consideration of the would have been ascertained upon one point. criminal law committee, and he had been aware He trusted that the gentleman from Switzerof it, he should have voted against raising the land would yet be willing to waive his amendselect committee; as it was, however, he made ment, and allow the vote to be taken directly no objection, because he supposed the object upon the adoption of the original resolution. was merely to secure a favorable report upon a One of the greatest evils which had oppressed very important subject. the State was too much legislation; and, for Mr. COOKERLY interposed, expressing his the purpose of checking this thing, he had ofwillingness to withdraw the motion to change fered the proposition contained in the resoluthe reference. tion. How was it now? Why, he had seen The report of the standing committee was bill after bill passing in the Legislature by the concurred in, and the resolution was accord- votes of ten or twelve men, at the close of a ingly referred to thecommittee on matters per- session, when many of the members had gone taining to criminal law. home-and some of them manifestly injurious THE LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. and against the will of the people. The adopThe PRESIDENT now announced the first tion of this proposition was required by the The PRESIDENT now announced the first 1 l universal suffrage. If it was the business in order to be the consideration of principle of universal suffrage. If it was the business in order to be the consideration otf.h.a unrestricted suffrage of the majority of the resolutions lying over under the rule; and citizens ich eted their representatives, the Secretary read the following resolution, e te ice o the ajority which was offered yesterday by Mr. STEVEN- rereset th the law sho of the representatives that the law should be *~~~~~~SON:. passed. The advantages of universal suffrage Resolved, That the committee on the Legis- could not be fully enjoyed without requiring lative Department be directed to report the fol- the representatives to remain in their places lowing as an amendment to the Constitution, till the Legislature should adjourn. There viz.: No bill shall be passed unless by the assent was no other way to frustrate the mischievous of all the members elected to each branch of and sinister schemes of designing men. The the General Assembly; and the question upon experience of other States had proved that this the final passage shall be taken immediate- was a wholesome constitutional provision. ly upon the last reading, and the yeas and nays What harm had it ever produced in the legislaentered upon the journal. tion of the State of New Yorkt This princiMr. KELSO said, he was pefectly content ple had been incorporated in nearly all the with the latter clause of the resolution; and he lately amended constitutions of the Union, and should be willing to vote for the whole of it he hoped to see it prevail here. With referif the mover would consentto amend it so as to ence to the objection, that good bills might be make it a matter of inquiry. But he maintain- rejected under its operation, he replied that it edthat it would be bad policy to make it a con- would be much better to lose a good bill now stitutional point, that no law should be passed by and then, than to cram into the laws the mass the Legislature unless a majority of all the of ill-digested and injurious bills which were members elected should vote for it. It might every year passed in this Hall by only a handfrequently be necessary to pass an important ful of men. law when such a majority could not, be obtain- Mr. PEPPER of Ohio said, he was sorry his ed. It was not extravagant to suppose, that, colleague (Mr. Kelso) had proposed to make 103 this a resolution of inquiry. He was as ready Mr. SHOUP said, that he was opposed to to meet the question now, as he should be at the amendment because a mere resolution of any period of the session. He could not think inquiry could give no assurance to the Conventhat the people of Indiana, sending here one tion as to what the committee would make of il; hundred men to legislate for them, would be and the whole ground of debate would have to be content with the understanding that thirty- gone over after the report came in. But the four of that number could pass a law; for if Convention could now decide upon the amendonly a majority of a quorum were necessary to ment, as he believed they would ultimately pass a law, thirty-four was that majority. He adopt the principle of this resolution. He supsubmitted to the Convention, whether it had posed it would be one of the results of the ever been generally understood by the people, labors of this Convention to abolish local legthat a law of any importance could be enacted islation by the General Assembly; and if so, and made obligatory upon them, in their House the rights of the people could not be representof Representatives of a hundred members, by ed unless the voice of the majority were heard a bare majority of a quorum? Nevertheless, in the enactment of every law. Then, more it was well known, that, under this practice, especially, it would be the duty of every repmany laws had been passed which were not resentative to be in his place. It was right agreeable to the wishes of the people, and that a full and fair expression of the will of which had been repealed in consequence. He the people should be heard; and it was demdid not think there could be any hardship in re- ocratic that the majority should govern. He quiring, that fffty-one members out of the hun- hoped to see a constitutional provision, that, dred shall record their votes in the affirmative hereafter, ever law of the land shall be enacted upon the final passage of every bill, before it by a majority of the representatives of the can become a law. It struck him that this people. question might as well be decided now, as at Mr. RITCHEY said, he thought this a very any other period. He hoped that the motion important question, and he was himself preto change the imperative character of the reso- pared to vote upon it at this time. But if memlution, if it were insisted upon, would not pre- bers had not thought sufficiently upon the subvail. He thought they would expedite business ject to make up their minds, he would be glad by deciding all these questions as they might to afford time to such by a postponement of come up. If gentlemen wished to discuss the the subject. He thought that one of the prinquestion, he was willing to give them time. cipal reasons which induced the people to call He would not seek, by any parliamentary this Convention was, that there might be set stratagem, to prevent the free discussion of up a constitutional check upon the legislation every proposition. of the State. It was a universal complaint that Mr. CLARK of Tippecanoe said, he should the State had too much legislation. But that vote against the proposition to make this a was not all. It was really true that reflecresolution of inquiry, because he thought it tion and propriety did not always mark the action better to settle these questions as they went the Legislature. In reply to the gentleman along, and he should also vote against the reso- from Tippecanoe, (Mr. Clark,) who contended lution. There was one feature in the resolu- that the adoption of this principle would put it tion to which he was radically opposed. It in the power of a factious minority to defeat involved a principle which would enable a fac- the will of the majority, he was prepared to adtious minority in the Legislature to defeat the mit the fact and all the force of the objection, will of the majority; and there were emer- and still he would put the principle into the gencies which would arise in every government, Constitution. They had seen how a minority when it would be absolutely necessary that of the Legislature of the State of Ohio had desomething should be done-when it would be feated the will of the majority, and if the minority fatal to stand still. Now it seemed to him oftheLegislature ofthe Stateof Indiana should at that, under the principle involved in this resolu- any time see proper to take such a responsibilition, a very small minority of the Legislature, ty upon themselves, and stop the wheels of by seceding or keeping out of the way, at any Government, he would say, let them do it; but time, might completely defeat the will of the he would take care to make that responsibility majority; whereas, in his opinion, there ought so great and so crushing, that no man would be always to remain in the legislative body suffi- willing to take it upon his shoulders. He had cient power to secure the transaction of all the been present here during sesion after session of business necessarily belonging to that depart- of the Legislature, and,witnessed the passage of ment of the government. He thought the the measures when the yeas and nays could not yeas and nays required on the final passage of be called upon them forwantof a quorum, and busa bill, would be a sufficient remedy for the evil iness of the worst character had been passed complained of. But the objection which he in this way-all this he had himself seen and had referred to was insuperable, that the princi- felt, and he had remonstrated in vain against its ple of the resolution would enable a factious manifest injustice. minority to defeat the will of a majority. He hoped the new Constitution would require 104 the affirmative vote of a majority of all the Ritchey) had intimated, and as they all could members elected to both branches of the Gen- see upon the examination of the journals of eral Assembly, before any measure could have the General Assembly, bills of the most imthe sanction of law. He commended the sub- portant character were often passed in one ject to the mature reflection of the body. It day, and frequently in the course of five minshould not be passed upon without reflection. utes, without having been once read through, Whether it went to the committee as a resolu- or perhaps ten members knowing their purport,. tion of inquiry, or of instruction, he cared not; and perhaps without a vote in the affirmative and he cared very little whether it were decided of more than one-fourth of the members electupon now or hereafter. He had spoken mere- ed. It was by means of such a system of legly because he desired to direct the attention of islation, that the Statute Books had been ingentlemen to the importance of the subject. cumbered with not merely useless, but even Mr. NILES said, he earnestly hoped that the bad laws. It was, in fact, by means of such amendment proposed by the gentleman from a method of legislation, that at one time they Switzerland (Mr. Kelso) would not be adopt- had established an insurance company which ed, for the reason, (as it occurred to him,) that directly became a bank; and that at another its tendency would be to suppress the freedom time peculiar privileges were given to one of debate and discussion. It seemed plain railway company, which on the very next to his mind that it would be giving the widest day would be denied to another. Indeed, it latitude to debate, to take up for consideration was, in no small degree, by means of such legall important questions and discuss them as islation, that the volume of local laws had presented. He would not, of course, insist been extended and enlarged to its present unupon a decision at once; definite action might wieldy dimensions. be postponed from day to day. He thought it The gentleman from Tippecanoe (Mr. Clark) was discourteous toward the mover of the re- had alluded to the inconvenience and occasionsolution, thus to attempt to silence him entire- al evils which would incidentally grow out of ly, by changing the whole character of his such stringent rules. But that gentleman proposition, and referring it as a mere matter should recollect that such evils were only of a of inquiry-taking away all its vitality, in negative character, which the people themfact; for the committee knowing the subject to selves could remedy. When factious legislahave been in agitation, would consider of it in tors, who, by combinations of minorities, had their room, whether submitted to them in the defeated wholesome legislation, should go home form of a resolution of inquiry or not. He to account to their constituents, they would considered such a motion no less discour- not be sent back to act the same part again. teous than a motion to lay finally upon the But when, by hasty and indiscriminate legislatable or postpone indefinitely. With ref- tion, peculiar and unreasonable privileges were erence to this proposition, he hoped it would granted to private corporations or individuals, not be disposed of in this summary man- or, what was still worse, when injudicious pubner, for he deemed it a matter of the high- lic legislation was adopted, then it would be est moment. He spoke confidently with ref- a direct, positive and serious injury, and the erence to his portion of the State when he remedy not so easily applied. affirmed, that there was no one subject upon He should not go into any discussion of the which the opinion of the people was more de- main subject this morning: he would, therefore, cided and unanimous, than that all practicable merely repeat the earnest wish, on his part, that constitutional checks ought to be placed upon debate would not be suppressed in this way;. inconsiderate and hasty legislation. At the and that the character of the resolution would proper time-even then, if it were in order- not be changed, but left in the form submitted he would submit an amendment to the ef- by the mover. He felt confident that this was feet, that for the passage of a law, not the true method of eliciting the sentiments of only should the affirmative vote of a majority the Convention, and learning from each other of all the members elected to each branch of the wishes of their constituents. the General Assembly to be necessary, and Mr. EDMONSTON said, that he should vote that the yeas and nays in every case should be against the amendment of the gentleman from required to be entered upon the journals, thus Switzerland, (Mr. Kelso.) He thought the holding every man responsible for his acts, but present was the proper time to discuss this matthat no law or joint resolution should, in any ter. He confessed that he could not see how case, be passed until it had been three times the adoption of this principle could remedy the fully read on three several days in each house. bad legislation spoken of by the gentleman He was confident that such was the sentiment from Laporte, (Mr. Niles.) It certainly could and wish of the people in his part of the State; not operate as any check upon the power of and he deemed it as important and as necessa- the Legislature to confer exclusive privileges ry, indeed, as any other provision of the Con- upon corporations or individuals. It could not stitution. prevent the same combination of interests As the gentleman from Johnson (Mr. which had heretofore procured this kind of leg 105 islation; nor could anything prevent such leg- ses; then it remains for the body to determine islation, while the Constitution continued to whether they will coincide with the report or sanction the practice of local and special legis- not. This was what he understood about the lation. But let this practice be prohibited-let utility of committees. He would like to inquire the Legislature pass only general corporation of gentlemen whether it would not be preferlaws granting equal rights and privileges to all able to offer, at once, an amendment to the companies which might organize under them. Constitution in proper shape I They had talked This would ensure an equality of rights under about saving time; would it not be a far more the legislation of the State, which could never time-saving method to have their amendments be brought about by requiring a majority to re- at once incorporated in the Constitutionl He cord their votes in favor of the passage of affirmed that the course proposed by the gentleevery law. But there was an evil which, in his man would prove to be a saving of time over estimation, would result from making this a the left shoulder-a useless and reckless waste Constitutional provision. How often was it the of time. case, that, in consequence of sickness, and for According to strict parliamentary usage, he other causes, a full House could not be obtain- supposed that he ought not to detain the Coned: and in this way, measures of vital impor- vention any longer; but as other gentlemen tance would be frequently defeated by a Con- had gone into the merits of the resolution, he stitutional provision of this kind. He thought would like to do the same. They had talked the recollection of the Chair would bear him about the will of the people, and affirmed that witness that, if, in the consummation of the an expression of that will could not be obtained, State Debt Bill, there had existed such a con- unless a majority of all the members of the Legstitutional provision, it would have been lost. islature should be required to vote in the affirmIt seemed to him that by the adoption of this ative before any proposition could become a resolution the Convention would be taking into law. Their object seemed to be, if he undertheir own hands what properly belonged to the stood the matter, to compel every member of people. He considered it would be a sufficient the Legislature to remain here until the end of remedy to adopt a Constitutional provision, the session. But he affirmed that this provision that, upon the final passage of every bill, each would no more have that effect than if not one member of the Legislature should record his word of it were in the Constitution. For when vote. By this means he would be held directly any member took a notion to go home he would responsible to the people, and not to this Con- ask for leave of absence, which would be grantvention: and surely if a measure were defeated ed, of course. It would be thought discourtby a member absenting himself he should be eous to refuse the first application. And, on amenable only to his constituents. It seemed the next day, perhaps B, C, D, &c., would have to him, that, upon the whole, the adoption of leave of absence, because the application had this principle would be injurious instead of ben- not been refused in the first instance. And so, cficial. frequently, the House would be found without a Mr. KELSO said, it would seem, by what quorum. During the term of his own short exhad been said, that his motion was rather un- perience in legislation, such had always been popular this morning. He would, therefore, the case, and on the last days of the session with the leave of the committee, attempt to de- there was sure to be but a very thin attendance. fend it. It had been said that his motion was Under the operation of this principle, the sickdiscourteous to the mover of the resolution. ness of five or six members, and perhaps the He thought there would be no more discourtesy factious temper of five or six others, might prein making a motion of this kind than for one vent the passage of the most important law. man to attempt to impose his opinions impera- Where then was the wisdom of placing so much tively upon a standing committee of this body. power in the hands of a few factious men, who What necessity was there for creating standing might be disposed to keep outside of the bar' committees at all. If they were to make their They need go no farther, and upon a call of the instructions to them upon all subjects impera- House they could answer, and the Clerk would tive, the committees would have no discretion report a quorum present. If gentlemen would whatever; there would be no necessity for take the trouble to examine the journals for them; the whole idea of standing committees four or five years past, they would find that, would be a foolish anomaly, if they were to be upon the announcement of the Chair that instructed in every thing they should do. He un- there was no quorum voting, a call of the House, derstood the advantage of committees in delibe- at the very minute, had furnished a quorum, rate bodies to be something like this: the Chair time after time. By the adoption of the prinselects for each committee, men well qualified to ciple of this resolution, they would only give to pass upon any measure that might be submitted such a factious minority ten times more power to them; then the body submits to them their than they now have. What obligation could propositions, and the committee, after consider- it place members under to remain in their places? ing them in all their bearings, report them back None in the world. It could not have the efto the House, with their judgment in the premi- fect which gentlemen pretend. For these and 106 other reasons, he should adhere to his motion this maxim did not apply here. He thought to change the character of the resolution. Like the evil of too little legislation to be far less his colleague, (Mr. Pepper of Ohio,) he was, than the evil of too much legislation; and if himself, ready to vote upon this question, but they were to adopt this provision, that the affirhe would rather, first, have the judgment of the mative vote of a majority of all the members standing committee, in the shape of a report. of both branches of the General Assembly Mr. OWEN said, that he agreed with the should be required to pass a law, did any one gentleman from Switzerland, (Mr. Kelso,) and, suppose that if, in consequence of its adopwith respect to the reference which had beention, any important proposition should be demade to that gentleman's amendment, (with all feated, the matter would not be referred back due deference to the judgment of the gentlemanto the peopled The people then would take from Laporte (Mr. Niles,) for whom he had much up and pass upon it themselves, by sending respect,he could not regard itasanythingdiscour-back the proper men to express their wishes. teous if a gentleman proposed to change a resolu- It would be the same thing as submitting the tion from one of positive instruction to one of in- proposition to the vote of the people. It qury. Wherever,he would not say a majority of would operate only as a postponement of legthis body, but, wherever even a small minority islative action. It was like the veto power. should appear to have doubts upon the propriety He had always been in favor of the veto, beor expediency of any proposition submitted, he, cause he believed it was only a postponementfor one, would always vote to have the question only a keeping back of hasty legislation. It postponed-to have it referred to a committee,was a maxim in criminal law-and a very propand await their action, before deciding in regard er and merciful one-that it was better one to it, Upon such a question as that of bien-hundred guilty men should escape punishment ial sessions of the e a atr i th that one Legisnnocature, a man should suffer whic. He had been universally discussed throughout the would not go quite so far as that, in this conState, there certainly could be no harm in com- nection, but he would say, that he believed it ing to a vote upon it at once, for, as it turned out was better that ten good laws should be postin that case, nineteen-twentieths of the Con- poned than that one bad law should be passed. vention were found voting for it. But so far as any Postponement was no very great evil in legisother matter, not so generally discussed and lation; but the passage of a bad law might decided among the people, was concerned, he be an evil of the gravest character, which would did think that, instead of implying discourtesy,be felt by the public for years. Upon this quesit was but a common act of courtesy, to request tion hs mind was made up but from tis it the opinions of a committee upon it. He ex- did not follow that the minds of others were pected in accordance with notice given, to have prepared for the vote; and for that reason, in an opportunity of exhibiting his own course in order to give others an opportunity for examisuch a case, upon another proposition - that nation, he should vote for theamendmentment in regard to the property of married women. of the gentleman from Switzerland. He intended to introduce this as a proposition Mr. SMITH of Ripley said, he desired to of inquiry, for he desired that no man should make a few remarks with reference to the probe asked to give his vote upon it without exam- posed amendment of the gentleman from Switzination. erland. For the discussion of all propositions The gentleman from Laporte (Mr. Niles) had there was an appropriate time, and this porThe gentleman from Laporte (Mr. Niles) had tion of the business was usually discussed in spoken of this course of proceeding as calcula- committee of the whole. Hesapprehended bed to suppress debate. He submitted it to that the co of that the most proper time for the discussion of gentleman whether itwould not operate only as a th e measures was after the report of the con potof discussion. He thought, as a these measures was after the report of the compostponementof discussion. Hethought, asa mittee had been made upon them. The Congeneral rule, when anything like an expression vention could then resolve itself i committee of opinion of the committee was called for, up- of the whole, and decide upon them. He conon any important subject, it would be better not sidered that this was an inappropriate time for to press the decision at once, nor so long as disssion o sh proposi gentlemen seemed not fully to have examined the i ion of h prop n it, nor to have had an opportunity for examina- getemen were aowed to offr resoluion. If gentlemen were allowed to offer resolutionsk upon every topic embraced in the ConstiIn regard to the resolution itself, with thetution, and engage in the discussion of their permission of t onvniohe Convention, he would say a merits before they were referred to their apfew words. He was in favor of the principle propriate committees, it would be involving the of the resolution. The gentleman from Tip- Convention in a kind of guerrilla debate. It pecanoe (Mr. Clark) had said that it was of- would be springing upon them the examination ten as fatal to stand still as to advance. As a of questions that had not yet received their apgeneral maxim, it was doubtless true, that there propriate consideration at appropriate times. If is as much factiousness in obstinate conserva- any gentleman was desirous of offering a resolutism as in wild innovation; but it struck him that tion of instruction to any one of the committees 107 he could do so and it would be duly referred, ed against by constitutional rules, of a charbut he could not but think that the proper time acter such as that now under consideration. for the discussion of these propositions would He would go a little further than the gentlebe when the report of the committees were man from Putnam, in regard to special legislareceived. tion, and also in regard to special appropriaHe would state to the Convention that he tions from the Public Treasury. He thought thought the appropriate course to have been that a vote of two-thirds of the Legislature, by pursued by the Convention, at the outset, was yeas and nays, was requisite in regard to all to have referred the Constitution to the com- special appropriations of money, or special acts mittee of the whole, and in that committee to of any kind whatever. He had heard members take it up section by section, and express their of the Legislature say, that they cared nothing sentiments, fully and impartially in regard to how they voted on certain measures, simply them. But they had now raised these commit- because the people whom they represented tees, and it was proper that these questions would have no immediate interest in the issue. should be referred to them, and when their re- But if we adopted a rule requiring the yeas and ports were received the Convention could go nays upon the passage of all bills, it would into a committee of the whole and decide upon bring every member square up to the mark, their adoption or rejection. He wished to call and all would be held responsible for their the attention of the members to the fact that votes. He trusted that the committee having there was an appropriate time for the discussion charge of this subject would report a provisof all these propositions. They had raised the ion imperatively requiring the yeas and nays necessary committees and referred nearly all on the final passage of all bills. To his certhe subjects embraced in the Constitution to tain knowledge, bills had passed the House of them, and should any gentleman be desirous of Representatives, no record of which appeared inserting an additional section to that instru- upon the journal. Would that have been the ment he could do so by bringing forward an im- case, he would ask, if the yeas and nays had perative resolution, embodying the principle he been required to be taken upon them? The desired to have incorporated among its provis- famous Canal Land Bill, which made so much ions. He considered that the discussion would noise at the North a few years ago-and one be doubled if they discussed these propositions i'of the most infamous measures, if he was cornow, and discussed them again after the reports rectly informed, that ever passed a legislative of the committees were received and came up body, was an example in point. No record of for consideration in committee of the whole. its passage could be found upon the journal of Mr. CHAPMAN said, that he hoped the the session at which it passed. He hoped that proposition of the gentleman from Switz- the amendment proposed by the gentleman erland (Mr. Kelso) would be adopted.- from Switzerland would be adopted; and he He was in favor of a full and free discus- further hoped that the rule proposed would be sion of all important subjects before they were incorporated in the new Constitution. referred to the committees. It was desirable Mr. BORDEN stated, that in regard to the that committees should have some manifesta- correctness of the position taken by gentlemen, tions of the opinion of the members of the that it required a majority of the Legislature Convention upon the different propositions re- to pass a bill, there could not be much dispute. ferred to them, in order that they might pre- He favored the idea of simply inquiring into pare a report in accordance with the will of the expediency of the proposed resolution. In the majority. He had had no experience in case the Convention concluded to make this legislative matters inside of the bar, but he amendment to the resolution, he was prepared thought he had a little outside of the bar; and to offer an additional amendment. He thought from witnessing the proceedings of the last to the effect that in voting money out of the nine sessions of the Legislature, he had been treasury for proper purposes, it should require satisfied that some rule of this description two thirds of all the members to effect that obshould be adopted, in order to do away with ject, and also, that in creating, altering, or the very evil with which they were now renewing any charter for private companies, it threatened-that of "hasty legislation." should require a vote of two-thirds of the RepThe Convention had, by a large majority, resentatives elected. He had heard some declared in favor of biennial sessions of the objection made to the last part of the propoLegislature, as a remedy for hasty or bad le- sition, but he thought that the Convention, gengislation. This, in his opinion, was not only a erally, were in favor of the first part, requiring wide departure from the first principles of re- two-thirds of the members to appropriate monpublican representative government, but would ey out of the Treasury. It there was any seprove altogether an inadequate remedy for the rious objections made to the latter clause of the evils complained of. Biennial sessions, with- proposition, it could be stricken out. out other and efficient rules, would only tend The question being upon the amendment to increase and prolong the evils resulting from offered by the gentleman from Switzerland, unwise laws. The latter could only be guard- (Mr. Kelso,) 108 Mr. BORDEN said, he would not press the lution shall be voted for by a majority of the amendment he had proposed to offer at the pres- members then elected to each branch of the ent time. Legislature, and said vote spread upon the Mr. READ of Clark said, he was opposed to journals of each house." the reference which the gentleman from Swit- The gentleman from Switzerland seemed to zerland (Mr. Kelso) seemed to think necessary, think it was necessary for this bill to be referand should vote against it, not from any want red, and desiring that the committee should be of courtesy towards the gentleman, but because instructed simply to inquire into the expedienhe thought it was time to come to some definite cy of adopting it. He supposed that in regard conclusion upon this question. It was well to subjects that were imperatively referred to known that the rules provided that all amend- the committees, it only remained for those comments to the Constitution should be read three mittees to put them in a proper form, and make several times on three several days. He thought proper reports in regard to them-which rethat was sufficient time for a full and impartial ports would be only considered and decided consideration of any subject that might come upon by the Convention. Now, he was disposbefore them. He regarded this as one of the ed to think that when thus reported, some of greatest reforms of the day. The county from the members would consider themselves relievwhich he hailed, embracing within its limits a ed from all responsibility in regard to them, and large class of practical and sober thinking men, take their departure for home. Taking this were unanimously in favor of it. It would fact into estimation, he considered that some protect, in a great measure, the people of the such reform as was proposed in the resolution State from hasty legislation, an evil so justly before the Convention, should be made. complained of. He would appeal to those mem- Mr. STEVENSON said, that it appeared bers of the Convention who had participated in from the remarks of the gentleman from Ripthe deliberations of the State Legislature, if ley, (Mr. Smith,) that he seemed to consider their experience did not justify the adoption of that this was not the proper time to investigate such a course. The gentleman from Johnson these questions-and, that they ought not to in(Mr. Ritchey) knew very well that bills of great troduce imperative resolutions at this period. importance had passed the Legislature in less He (Mr. S.) was astonished that the gentlethan fifteen minutes. What had been the cus- man's memory was so defective. It would be tom in that body in regard to many important remembered, that among the Rules reported measures? Some member would rise and pre- for the government of this body, there was one sent a proposition, which, upon its first appear- providing that imperative resolutions should ance, would meet with little favor. If he was lie over for one day. an artful and intriguing Legislator, he would This rule was adopted on motion of the genmove that it be laid upon the table. He would tleman from Tippecanoe. He was upon the then go to log rolling, or, in other terms, in- committee that formed these rules, as was the. triguing among the members to secure a party gentleman from Ripley, (MIr. Smith,) and they in its favor. thought that one day's notice was amply suffiOn the last days of the session, when it was cient. Now the House had been notified in acknown that a good portion of the members had cordance with that Rule, and more than that this left for home because of not being immediately resolution had been introduced some three or interested in the proceedings, the bill would be four days since. Thus the Convention had had, brought forward and passed by a majority of notice that this proposition would be investiga — two-thirds of the members, when it could not ted, yet the gentleman was disposed to smotherhave been passed at any anterior period of the it down. session. What said the present Constitution Mr. SMITH of Ripley said, he would exin regard to the veto power being exercised plain his position. The gentleman from Putupon bills passed in this hasty manner t It re- nam would recollect that in the first of the orquired that when the Governor vetoes a bill it ganization, he took the identical ground for shall be brought before both branches of the which he now contended-namely, that they Legislature for their consideration, in which should discuss all the propositions embodied in case it requires a majority of all the members the Constitution in the committee of the elect to both branches of the Legislature to pass whole. He was now in favor of referring a bill or joint resolution. But at this late period them to these committees without any prelimof a session how could a bill of the character inary discussion upon their merits. he had referred to be appropriately investigated l Mr. STEVENSON stated that due notice had He had a resolution which he would move at been given in regard to this propositions, and an appropriate time. It was as follows: ample time afforded for a proper investigation "That the Legislature shall be prohibited of its merits. from passing any bill or resolution for the ap- In regard to the argument of the gentleman propriation of money, or creating any debt from Tippecanoe (Mr. Clark) which had apagainst the State, or for the payment of money peared to have considerable weight upon in any way whatever, unless such bill or reso- the minds of the members-with respect to 109 the withdrawal of the minority, thus prevent- the gentleman, he thought there would not ing a majority from being obtained, he consid- then be so fair and appropriate an opportunity.ered it a very fallacious and weak one. Sup- for the settlement of questions as now; some pose the House was divided on a certain bill- of the members might not succeed in getting no matter what bill it might be-and that there an opportunity to offer and discuss these amendwere one hundred members present, fifty-one ments. Of all bodies that ever assembled in the being for it and forty-nine against it. Did the State of Indiana, for the purpose of deliberagentleman suppose that if this minority were tion, he thought that this body should be the to withdraw, it would defeat the bill! Cer- most free and unrestricted- liberal in their.tainly not. There would still be left fifty-one rules, in their actions towards each other, and members of the House who would, of course, as to the limits of discussion-so that every be a majority of all the members, and they subject that gentlemen might see fit to bring could pass the bill. Thus, it will be seen that forward for consideration, having a bearing upthe argument of the gentleman from Tippeca- on the interests of their constituents, might renoe fell to the ground unless a portion of those ceive a full and impartial examination. There voting in the majority should withdraw with could beno charge rr.ale of a want of courtesy tothe minority. wards the standing committees-because genMr. WOLFE desired to remark to the Con- tlemen gave expression to the sentiments upon vention that the very ground taken in this the subjects under their charge for the guidance proposition had been taken by the citizens of of those committees. the county which he represented, and that was These committees, it should be borne inmind, an additional reason for its meeting with his had a very great influence. Whenever they approbation. presented their reports, there was a general It had been truly said by gentlemen who disposition on the part of the majority to adopt had taken part in this discussion, that there them without much discussion, thus giving them was a great deal of irresponsibility on the part an influence which oftentimes they did not deof the members who came up to this Hall to serve. With respect to the present standing legislate for the people of Indiana. He thought committees of the Convention, it was not exthat if a resolution of the character of the pected by any one that they would be prepared present one had been adopted years ago, the in a day or two to report upon these subjects; State would have been greatly benefited by and therefore it would not delay business, but,'t. He recollected in 1847, on the day of the on the contrary, expedite it, to have subjects o f adjournment of the Legislature, there were importance, such as the one they now have only twenty members present, out of one hun- under consideration, acted upon by the Convendred, to transact business in this Hall, where- tion. as, had the yeas and nays been demanded upon Mr. STEELE said, that this was a new subthe passage of every bill, they would have been ject to him, one that he had not examined at compelled to remain and discharge the duties any length, and, therefore he was unprepared required of them. He contended that every at present to vote for the resolution. He would man who came up to that Hall was a servant prefer that it be referred to a committee who of the people, and should be held strictly re- should inquire into its expediency, and report sponsible for the faithful performance of his thereupontothe Convention. They couldthen legislative functions. discuss the matter fully, and come to some deMr. PEPPER of Ohio said, that he was in cision with regard to it. He should, therefore, favor of a full and unrestricted discussion upon vote for the amendment of the gentleman from every subject that properly came up for the con- Switzerland. sideration of the Convention. He doubted not Mr. READ of Monroe stated, that he was that there were many gentlemen in the Con- decidedly in favor of the provision embodied in vention situated like himself, who had had no theresolution. It was a provision that had been experience in the arts and stratagems of legis- incorporated in the new Constitution of the lation. He felt that there was a manifest State of New York; but in other conventions propriety in allowing full scope for enqui- that had been held in the various States of the ry and discussion in regard to all these pro- Union, for the purpose of revising their Constipositions before referring them to committees. tutions, its utility had been doubted, and it had He thought it important that they should know not been adopted. He supposed that there the views of every gentleman who came up were many members of this Convention who there to represent a portion of the people of the had not yet fully made up their minds as to the State. propriety of its adoption. He was glad that'The gentleman from Ripley (Mr. SMITH) the gentleman from Switzerland had offered the had suggested that after these subjects had been amendment then pending, because the attenreferred, and reported upon by the appropriate tion of this body, by the discussion that had committees, that then,their merits could be taken place upon it, had been directed to the fully discussed, and amendments be incorporated propriety of introducing such a provision into the in them. Without intending any disrespect to Constitution, and he had no fear but that it 110 would be so incorporated. All he desired was the passage of that 1Bill, the amendment that there should be full time for deliberation. would have been adopted, and the Bill would They would not in the end progress with any have been passed by an unanimous vote instead greater rapidity by adopting the resolution, than of a vote of two-thirds by which it did pass. if they waited for the report of the committee Mr OWEN. I hve but a word to say in upon it.., reply to the gentleman from Tippecanoe. That Mr. CLA RKE of Tippecanoe remarked, that gentleman says, that he does not agree with me he knew it was out of order to discuss the merits in the sentiments I have expressed on this ocof this proposition, nevertheless, as gentle- casion. He says that he does not, as I seem to men had begun a discussion, he felt authorized o, regard Government as an evil, and that he to continue it in a few remarks. The gentle- does not wish to escape, as I seem to desire, man from Putnam (Mr. Stevenson) had said from the expressed will of the people. Now, that his (Mr. C.'s) proposition was a fallaciou I should be very glad to believe that all laws one, and that if there were fifty-one members that are passed do really embody the will of the in a body numbering one hundred, in favor of a people; but I do not believe it. If I did I should iaw, it would be enacted. desire their passage. What I think we ought But, said Mr. Clarke, if there were forty-nine to see to, is, that no law shall ass until we members only in favor of a necessary meas- know it does embody the will of the people. are, and these should constitute a majority of ^ ^^^^^^^^^^ Asregards the proposition that government those present, who remained at their posts to Ass the opositionthat government do their duty, the law must be defeated. is an evil, I beg leave to say, that I have made Now, in the ordinary course of human affairsno such assertion. some members of the Legislature will probably My proposition is this, that the best government be sick, some may be absent, and notwithstand- so that it attains the legitimate object of goving these accidents, the government must go eminent, is that which governs the least. I on-its emergencies must be provided for-and should be glad to know that we could live it is I think dangerous to so trammel the legis- without government. We cannot do so, but it is a lative body as to destroy its function and defeat principle which we should always bear in mind, its necessary purposes. and it is an important one, that, so we effect Mr. C. said, he understood the gentleman the legitimate object of government, viz.: the from Posey to say, that he favored the proposi- protection of life, liberty, and property-the tion because it would diminish or restrain legis- fewer laws by which that object is effected, the lation. Now I do not regard government as an better. If the gentleman ever understood me evil, nor can legislation be supposed an evil. as going beyond that, I assure him he is misGovernment is a blessing; laws, its offspring, are taken. necessary. There is no evil so great as anar- Mr. TAYLOR said, he had designed to say chy. Nothing I should fear more than a a few words upon this question, and he had inprovision in the Constitution, which may de- tended to wait until every other gentleman had feat the ends of government, and prevent the expressed his views fully and thoroughly, and lawful and deliberate expression of the public to his satisfaction. He had, however, hoped to will. In our government the will of the people, be relieved from inflecting upon the Convention lawfully expressed through their regularly con- at this stage of the question, anything like an stituted organs, is law. It can be no part or argument, although it was a question of importpurpose of our Constitution to defeat or hinder ance, and one in the discussion of which he the expression of this will. should like to take a part, for he felt it was due Some gentlemen appeal to their legislative to each member of that body, upon a question experience, and suppose if this proposition of this kind, that he should have an opportunity were adopted,hasty and improvident legislation not only to give his vote but also to express would be prevented. Now, I think with the his views and opinions. And he would not now gentleman from Dubois (Mr. Edmonston) that trouble the Convention with any remarks if it would rather encourage and compel log-roll- he knew how the vote would go, or rather if he ing-at least, it would in no wise hinder such believed that the proposition would go to the combinations. I may be permitted to say that committee without positive instructions. If he I served in the Indiana Legislature during a were assured that it would be thus referred, he period of ten years, and that period in which would be satisfied to defer what he had to say our State debt originated. When the Mam- until the report of the committee was made, moth Improvement Bill passed the Senate, the and the question came up on its merits, and minority presented a proposition to amend the after the enlightened views of the committee Bill by adding a million and a half to the appro- had first been obtained; and if the committee priation and involving an ultimate cost of ten reported in accordance with his views, he should millions, and proposed if the Bill were so amen- be satisfied, but if they reported adversely, it ded, to allow it to pass by an unanimous vote. would then be time enough for him to interpose; And I give it as my experience, that if it had and should a majority of the Convention disrequired an unanimous vote to have secured agree with the opinion of the committee, the 111 report of the committee would not be final and whose opinions he entertained profound respect, conclusive. There were some of these proposi- he hoped that he might be indulged in making tions for which he would go, heart and hand, but one further remark. My colleague, (continued there were others which he deemed highly det- Mr. Niles,) has said truly that the reports from rimental to the best interests of the people of committees will have great weight with the this State, and the adoption of which he would Convention. Gentlemen will feel reluctant do all he could to prevent. to vote against such reports, or to undo the acBut trusting that the Convention would refer tion of the committees. Now, sir, while I admit the subject to the committee without instruc- that a windy and wordy session would be a tions, he would not now enter upon its discus- misfortune, I hold that hasty and inconsiderate sion. It was a matter which might be left to action on the part of abody of this kind, assemthe disposal of the Legislature, hereafter. He bled to fix the character of the organic law of thought there were many weighty reasonswhich the State, would be a far greater evil. The might be given why it should be left to the gentleman from Ripley (Mr. Smith) has retegisfature. marked that if the course for which we contend Trusting that the resolution would be refer- is adopted-if discussion of subjects is permitred without instructions, he would say no more ted before they are referred to appropriate comat this time. When the report of the commit- mittees, they will be liable to be twice debated. tee came in, if it should appear that the com- It is, sir, for that very reason that I oppose the mittee took a different view of the matter from amendment. I desire that the door be thrown that which he took, he would then take occa- wide open for debate. I hope that every memsion to say what he might consider necessary ber will have an opportunity freely and fulin support of his own views and in opposition ly to express his views, on every important to those of the committee, and move to engraft subject. For, however humble the member such provision as in his own judgment might may be, though the weakest on this floor, even seem expedient. He thought the proper course if that member be myself, he may make some was to refer all subjects without special instruc- valuable suggestion. If debate is elicited now, tion. For, as had been remarked by the gentle- and the sense of the Convention, in reference man from -, if the opposite course were ta- to important subjects, ascertained, the minority ken, there was no need of committees at all. will have an opportunity to be heard again Mr. NAVE said, he had not risen to discuss when the question will be upon the adoption of the question, but merely to call the attention of the sections as they come from the committees. the Convention to one point, and that was It will be like giving to the defeated party in a whether they would discuss these important law suit the chance of a new trial. But, if the resolutions in the Convention, or whether they consideration of the most important questions would make them resolutions of inquiry, and which will come before this body, is postponed send them to the appropriate committees. If till near the close of the session, I apprehend the Convention had determined that they would that the desire to adjourn, and return to their not now discuss them, he wished to see that de- homes, will be a ruling and paramount considtermination applied to the resolution now before eration with many members; and that a Constithe Convention, and it would cut off a great tution formed by committees, accidentally sedeal of unnecessary debate. The several prop- lected, rather than by the Convention itself, ositions that were before the Convention could may be forced upon the people. then be referred, and when the committees re- Mr. TAYLOR rose for the purpose of makported upon them they could be discussed fully ing an explanation. in the Convention. It was important that the Mr. GREGG rose to a question of order. He Convention should determine whether they desired to know if it was in order for gentlemen would discuss them previous to their reference, to speak as often as they pleased upon the or whether they would wait until the commit- same question? tees had reported. He was, however, in favor The PRESIDENT. If the gentleman from of the resolution of the gentleman from Put- Jefferson desires to speak, the gentleman from nam, and he did not see why they might not Laporte, having spoken once, cannot retain the come to a direct vote upon it. The people of floor. Indiana generally had instructed their delegates Mr. GREGG. I do not wish to speak, sir; to vote for such a proposition. There was no but I noticed that several gentlemen assumed portion of the State in which he had been where the privilege of speaking repeatedly to the exhe had not heard the desire expressed that such elusion of others. a provision should be inserted in the amended The PRESIDENT. Under the rule, a genConstitution. He, for one, was prepared, there- tleman has a right to speak twice upon any fore, to give hisvote in favor of the proposition as question, if no other desires to speak. contained in the imperative resolution. Mr. TAYLOR. I am sorry, sir, that the Mr. NILES said,that as he had the misfortune gentleman should have thought it necessary to to differ from his friend and colleague, (Mr. make me the object of his remark in reference Taylor,) and from several other gentlemen, for to a violation of the rules of order. I have 112 tried to be extremely modest hitherto. I think l prehend this would be the case with other gen I have been particularly unobtrusive. temen. But trusting that the Convention will Mr. GREGG desired permission to explain. yet take the course suggested, of referring this His point of order, he said, was not directed resolution to the committee without instrucexclusively to the gentleman from Laporte; he tions, and that I shall have an opportunity, had seen several gentlemen rise who had al- when the report of the committee comes in, of ready spoken twice. saying what I desire to say, I shall not trouble Mr. TAYLOR. I will inform the gentle- the Convention further at this time. man that I am not one of those who have Mr. COOKERLY said, he had not risen to spoken twice. I have made a few remarks, it discuss the merits of the proposition that was is true, and I had hoped to be relieved from now pending, but merely to say a word in remaking even those few, and would not now gard to its reference. This, said he, is a very trouble the Convention were it not for the high important question. It is a proposition which, regard that I entertain for the talent and expe- if adopted, will change, materially, the Constirience of my colleague, who, I regret to find, tution under which we have lived for so many does not give his sanction to the proposition years, and I hold that it would be wrong to that this subject shall go to the commitee with- force the Convention to a decision upon it at out instructions. I had hoped hewould have con- this time. We have constituted a large numsented to let it go to the committee, and when ber of committees. For what purpose t Is it reported back I should be prepared to say what ifor the purpose of sending to them resolutions I have to say in reference to the subject. instructing them to report in a particular manI agree entirely with my colleague that there ner upon the various propositions submitted ought to be most ample opportunity afforded to them No sir; it is for the purpose of for discussion upon all questions. It is only submitting resolutions of inquiry to them, and once in many years that a Convention is as- letting them, in the committee rooms, discuss sembled to make amendments in the organic the matter and decide upon the propriety of relaw, and while discussion is going on I trust porting favorably or otherwise, and when the we shall not be captious; and if a member reports come in, it is then for us to discuss does rise to speak twice opon the same subject, them, and vote upon them. I do trust that I hope he will not be called to order, because it questions of as much importance as this is, will has the effect of embarassing a man who is as be submitted to a committee, to be considered little disposed as I am to be obtrusive. And I by them and reported upon. So far as I am confess that on many occasions I have kept concerned, I think I shall vote in favor ol" the my seat when I desired to offer a few remarks, proposition that is embraced in this resolution; because I saw that other gentlemen were de- but I am not prepared now to vote upon it, and sirous of addressing the Convention. I do not I hope, therefore, that it will be referred. desire to be troublesome, but I do desire to be Mr. DOBSON said, that so far as he was heard occasionally when matters of importance concerned, if it was a single and separate prop-matters in which my constituents are inter- osition, he would be willing to meet the quesested-are before the Convention. It is the tion now; but as many gentlemen had exonly means I have of getting what I say before pressed a desire that each and every member of my constituents. the Convention should have an opportunity to I should be very much gratified if the Con- be heard upon it, and as it was a new question, vention would permit this proposition to take and as there was not sufficient time to discuss it the course indicated by the gentleman from now, his own opinion was, that it should go to Switzerland; but if the question must now be the committee. argued I shall be under the necessity of detain- What was the object of the assembling of ing the Convention for a few moments while I this Convention? It was to remedy the deexpress the views which I entertain in regard fects in the Constitution of the State. But it to it, although I should much prefer that we would depend very much upon the decision that should first have the report of the committee. might be made regarding some other provisions, And if that report should coincide with my whether this should be engrafted in the Constiviews, the Convention would be relieved from tution or not. the infliction of a speech from me; but if it It has been asserted, continued Mr. D., with should differ from them I should claim the priv- a good deal of plausibility, that the State of Inilege of being heard. diana has been ruined by excessive legislation. My colleague says that he wishes to give the Now I apprehend that no country has increased widest scope to debate, but is the course that more rapidly than Indiana in population and he proposes calculated to attain that end i Not wealth, and if it has been injured so much by at all. Every one must see that the Conven- legislation, I ask what it would have been if tion is impatient of debate upon this subject at there had been no legislation at all. I apprethis time; and under such circumstances it hend that legislation has not done so much inwould be difficult for me to give expression to jury as is represented, after all. The State has my ideas in a satisfactory manner, and I ap- more than trebled its wealth.in the last seven 113 teen years. But admitting that this has been a of business be suspended, to enable him to offer great evil-admitting that there has been a the following resolution: great deal of hasty and imperfect legislation- Resolved, That the Convention proceed, this still, here is the question: shall we, therefore, day at two o'clock, to elect, by ballot, a Printer run into the opposite extreme 1 I know it is to this body. very natural for a legislative body that has ofbusiness was suspended, and gone too far in one direction one day, to go too The ueo bin ta upo resolution, The question bemig taken upon the resolution, far the other way the next. it was adopted. I apprehend it is not our true policy to go m a r i far into the discussion of this matter in its pre- Mr URRAY rose to move a resolution of liminary stage. It being a question of so thanks to the citizens of Madison for the hospimuch importance, I think it ought to be per- tality tendere by them to the Convention. mitted to go to the committee, and when it Mr. BORDEN claimed the floor, and having eomes back into the Convention members will been recognized by the President as being have an opportunity of discussing it as fully as entitled to it, said, he rose to ask the mover they wish. of the resolution which had just been adoptI believe, sir, that if we take away from the ed, under a suspension of the order of business, Legislature the power of passing local laws wethe favor to move a reonsideration of the vote shall do a service to the State. Local laws by which the resolution was adopted, in order have been the curse of this country. I believe that they might record their votes upon it. If that at the last session there were somethingthe Convention were determined to go into the like seven hundred bills passed. Of these, notelection of a Printerhe said he would of course more than two hundred are of a general char- yield to the will of the majority, but he hoped acter, leaving something like five hundred there was no desire to precipitate action upon local laws passed in one year. Now if that subject; he thought it was at least due to you take away their power to pass local laws, those who were opposed to the proposition, that you take away five-sevenths of the legislation. they should be permitted to record their names But I am disposed to think that this is a matter against it. that we should not be hasty about, or we may The PRESIDENT remarked to the gentledo more harm than good-like an old womman m from Allen, that he had had plenty of time that I have read of somewhere, who was extra- to call for the yeas and nays, if he had been officious. A neighbor having fallen off his within the bar of the House at the time. horse one day, the worthy dame took great Mr. BORDEN. That is true, sir; but I pains to assist him, brushing off the mud very hope the House wil indulge me by permitting carefully and helping him to remount his horse. the yeas and nays to be taken. And for fear that he was not properly seated, Mr. CARR said, he had no wish to take any she had to give him an extra shove, which sent member by surprise, but he certainly thougt it the old man off on the other side, where he fell was time that this question should be decided. deeper into the mud than before. Thus it may If they were going to have a Printer at all, it be with us if we attempt to determine hastily was time that they should elect one. The upon a matter of this kind; we may do more printing for the Convention, at present, was harm than good. I am disposed to think, there- done sometimes at one place and sometimes at fore, that we had better send this matter to a another. For the accommodation of the gencommittee. I nevertheless agree with the gen- leman from Alen, however, and all other memtleman from Laporte. I am willing to hear bers of the body who entertained the same feeldiscussion upon all subjects, and at every stage. ings thathe dd on the subject, he would move It is but once in a number of years that the or-a re-conseran the vote. ganic law is to be changed. My own original Mr. ORDEN desired to say one word in exidea was, to have but three committees, and to planation. He had observed that a motion was refer every subject to one or other of those made the other day to reconsider a vote for a three committees, as the gentleman from Tip-similar purpose, and he had not expected a new pecanoe suggested at the commencement; and proposition would be made to supersede that that when the reports from those committeesmotion. That was the reason why he had came in, the discussion should take place. If been taken somewhat by surprise when this discussion be had before the reference, it willmotonwaadpted have to be gone over again, unless we can set- Mr. DOBSON said, he had promised the tie and arrange a principle, definitely, at once. gentleman from Alen to move a re-consideraI shall vote for the reference to the committee. tion, for the purpose, as he supposed, of giving the gentleman an opportunity to argue the The question being taken on the amendment tuesti o of the gentleman from Switzerland, it was Mr. BORDEN. Not at all,sir. Idid not agreed to; and, wish to argue it, but merely to record my vote. The resolution, as amended, was adopted. The yeas and nays were demanded ipon the Mr. CARR of Jackson moved that the order motion to reconsider. 8 114 Mr. CARR said, that, upon reflection, as Mather, May, McClelland, Miller of Fulton, there seemed an unwillingness to re-consider Nave, Shoup, Spann, Terry, Watts, and Work. the vote, he would withdraw the motion. -ayes 30. Mr. DUNN' of Perry renewed the motion to NoEs. —Messrs. Alexander, Anthony, Badger, re-consider. Barbour, Bascom, Beard, Bicknell, Biddle, Mr. BORDEN renewed the demand for the Blythe, Bourne, Bowers, Bracken,Bright, Brookyeas and nays.' bank, Bryant, Carr, Chenowith, Coats, CookerTen members rising, the yeas and nays were ly, Crawford, Davis of Parke, Davis ot Vermillordered. ion, Dick, Dobson, Dunn of Perry, &c., Duzan, Mr. CLARKE of Tippecanoe inquired of Edmonston, Farrow, Fisher, Foley, Foster, the Chair whether the motion to re-consider Frisbie, Gibson, Gootee, Gregg, Hall, Holliday, must not necessarily lie over one day. Helmer, Hendricks, Hitt, Hogin, Holman, The PRESIDENT replied that it must lie Huff, Johnson, Jones, Kent, Kendall of Warren, over. Lockhart, Logan, Miller of Clinton, Miller of Mr. CLARKE was proceeding to address the Gibson, Milroy, Mooney, Moore, Morgan, MorChair, when rison of Marion, Morrison of Washington, The PRESIDENT reminded the gentleman Murray, Niles, Nofsinger, Owen, Pepper of Ohio, from Tippecanoe that there was no question be- Pepper of Crawford, Pettit, Prather, Read of fore the Convention. Monroe, Ristine, Sherrod, Sims, Smiley, Snook, On motion by Mr. RITCHEY, Smith of Ripley, Smith of Scott, Steele, TanneThe Convention adjourned until 2 o'clock hill, Taylor, Thomas, Todd, Trimbly, VanbenP. M. Cveto.thusen, Wheeler, Wiley, Wolfe, Wunderlich, AFTERNOON SESSION. Yocum, Zenor, and Mr. President-noes 89. So the vote was not reconsidered. Mrs BORDEN rose and. said, that when theELE N OF STT ^~. j~~~... i..I ~..* iELECTION OF STATE PRINTER. Convention adjourned there was a motion pending to re-consider the vote that had been taken The Chair announced the first thing in order upon the motion to go into an election for Stateto be the election of a Printer to this Convention. Printer, at 2 o'clock that afternoon. He had on no objection, so far as he was concerned, to Messrs. Carr and Colfax were appointed to going into the election of State Printer; all thatactas tellers. he wished was to have the yeas and nays taken Mr. EDMONSTON presented the name of on the motion to re-consider. He trusted that AUSTIN H. BROWN, as a candidate, and by the unanimous consent of the Convention Mr. COAT presented the name of SOLAN the call of the yeas and nays might be proceeded URMAN. with. Upon the counting of the first ballot it appeared that Mr. OWEN said, he had but a single word to Austin H. Brown received 78 votes. say in reference to this subject. It had occurredto Solon Turman " 35 " him on several occasions, andhe had so express- Jacob P. Chapman " 6 ed'himself to many of the members of the Scattering, 11 Convention, that he had never been a mem- AUTIN H. BROWN having received a majority ber of a legislative body where so much courtesy of all the votes givenwas declaredduly elected was exercised by the members towards each oth-the Printer to this Convention. er, and where kindly feelings so generally pre- After a few remarks by Mr. WALLACE, in exvailed as in the present Convention. He under- planation of his vote for Mr. Chapman, as stood that the minority had no desire to delayPrinter to the Convention, the election of a State Printer, but were perfectly On motion, the Convention adjourned. willing that it should take place immediately. They were simply desirous, for reasons of their own, of having the privilege of record ing their votes on the journal, and he did hope that thatSATURDAY, OCTOBER 19,1850. privilege would be granted unanimously. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment, The question being put on the reconsideration and was opened with prayer by the Rev. Mr. of the vote on the adoption of the resolution of MILLS. Mr. Carr, submitted by him this morning on the The Journal of the preceding day was then subject of electing a State Printer to the Con- read. vention, and the yeas and nays being demanded RIGHTS OF MARRIED WOMEN. by ten members, they were taken with the fo Mr. OWEN, agreeably to notice previously lowing result: given, introduced his resolution of inquiry, in AYES.-Messrs. Balingall, Beach, Borden, relation to the rights of married women. Butler, Chandler, Clark of Hamilton, Cole, Col- The resolution was as follows: fax, Davis of Madison, Garvin, Graham of Mi- "That the committee on rights and privileges ami, Hamilton, Hardin, Hawkins, Hovey, Howe, of the inhabitants of the State, inquire into the Kendall of Wabash, Kinley, Maguire, March; expediency of incorporating in the bill of rights 115 the following section: Women hereafter mar- heard various opinions in regard to it, some astied in this State shall have the right to acquire serting that it did give to married women such and possess property to their sole use and dis- rights of control, and others that it did not. posal; and laws shall be passed securing to them The legal distinction in regard to these matters under equitable conditions, all property, real was of a very nice character. The words "to and personal, whether owned by them before her sole use and disposal," are admitted to conmarriage, or acquired afterwards by purchase, fer exclusive management, while the words " for gift, devise, or descent, and also providing for her own use and benefit," have been held not the registration of the wife's separate property." to bar the marital right. Mr. OWEN said, he wished to offer a few He would only say, in conclusion, that he had words of explanation with reference to the pre- not brought up this matter hastily, nor without cise character of this resolution. The change deliberation, nor, he would add, without conproposed by it differed essentially in character sultation with wiser and more experienced perfrom any of the changes which had already been sons. Many years ago he had written in regard made in various States of the Union; for ex- to the subject to two of the most eminent jurists ample, in the States of New York, Pennsylva- of this or any other country-Chancellor Kent nia, Ohio, Maine, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, and Judge Story-and at the proper time he Alabama, and several others. The changes would lay before the Convention their opinions which had been made in these various States in on this subject, as they were given to him by regard to the holding of property by married letters addressed to himself. women, were changes affecting existing rela- Mr. KELSO remarked, that the very clause tions-affecting the property of those now mar- of this resolution of the gentleman from Posey, ried. Now he would ask the Convention to ob- quoted by him in its favor, appeared to his mind serve that in this resolution, which he proposed the most fatal objection to it. It might do well to incorporate in the new Constitution, there this morning after having just emerged, as it was nothing but what was strictly prospective- were, from the large company of beautiful young relating to the property of women hereafter ladies that graced the Governor's levee last evenmarried. The difference he regarded as a very ing, to come forward in favor of the rights of important one; for if this was made to apply to unmarried ladies-but he (Mr. K.) had considfuture marriages only, and among those about erable affection for one married lady, and he to be married, there were any who thought, or could not perceive any good reason for making whose parents thought, that the old law was such ample constitutional provision for the rights better than the new law, nothing would be of unmarried women, in preference to the rights more easy than to come under the old law. of those already married. He would have been The day before the marriage the bride had only pleased if the gentleman from Posey, had stated to transfer to her future husband all her per- whether he occupied the position, that this Consonal property and the rents and profits of her vention had not the power to apply this provision real estate, and she would be placed at once as to the protection of the rights of those ladies under the old law. It was, therefore, a matter who were already married; if that was hisopinof choice with her whether to come under the ion,he must say that he differed from him enprovisions of the old law, or to avail herself of tirely with regard to its propriety and correctthe provisions of the new. He would not, at ness. He had no objection to the proposition if this stage of proceedings, argue the question it went no farther than appeared on its face, bewhether the principle involved in the proposed cause they had a law of similar character now on change was right or wrong; he was simply de- the Statute Book to which the gentleman had resirous of calling the attention of the Conven- ferred, but if they were to embody it in the new tion to the particular character of this resolu- Constitution, he would enquire why its provition. It would be discussed, he trusted, at sions might not be applied for the benefit of all length, by the Convention in a few days. women alike, both married and single. For the He would remark, in connection with this purpose cf taking the sense of the Convention subject, that the people of the State of Indiana on this point, he would move to strike out from had already acted upon the subject. It was not the resolution the word "hereafter." a new matter even among them. There was, Mr. OWEN had but a single word to say in upon the Statute Book now, a law which made reply to the gentleman from Switzerland. Inprovision in regard to the real estate of married dividually, he was in favor of the amendment women, and the rents and profits of that real the gentleman had suggested, but he was not estate. The words of the law were, "that they sure that the matter had been sufficiently disshould be deemed and taken to be her separate cussed throughout the State to justify the Conproperty." Whether it was the design of this vention in going so far as it proposed, and the law to give to the wife the sole management adoption of this resolution would not prevent and control of her real estate, and its rents and the Legislature from carrying out the design of profits, he did not assume to decide; not be-' the gentleman's amendment at any future period. longing to the profession he would not offer any By this provision they would instruct the Legislegal opinion himself on that point. He had lature to go to a certain point; that would not 116 prevent them from going further if they desired. tion of such a course was an unnecessary waste He was very far from asserting that we had no of the public money. right to extend the provision to those now mar- I believe, continued Mr. N., if the Convenried as to property hereafter to be acquired; and tion take the number, of papers proposed in the he was most decidedly in favor of such exten- resolution, or a lesser number as proposed in the tion, if it should appear that the people of the amendment of the gentleman from Dubois, (Mr. State generally were ready to receive and ap- Edmonston,) that but a comparatively insignifiprove it. cant number of the people of Indiana will reHe apprehended that the gentleman from ceive even a copy of the papers thus orderedSwitzerland was in error when he said that this and I ask gentlemen, what information of any resolution differed but slightly from the existing value can accrue to the people of this State by purlaw on the subject. The law now on the Statute ing such a course'? Occasionally an individual Book gave to married women, at most, control would receive a single isolated copy of the paover real estate, and its rents and profits only, per containing our proceedings, with a report but embraced no provision at all in regard to of our action upon several distinct propositions, personal property. but of what benefit will that be to him T UnMr. KELSO observed, that that was the only less they have a connected history of the prodifference. The idea that they were to do their ceedings here they most assuredly will fail to business by halves and depend upon the Legis- understand the reasons for, and the result of our lature to perfect it, he did not subscribe to. If action on, the various propositions that will they were going to make a constitutional pro- come under the conisderation of the Convenvisionin regard to this matter at all, why not tion. I consider then that this resolution will make one sufficiently comprehensive to embrace result in no way to the benefit of the people of the provision he had suggested! If the Con- i Indiana, but, on the contrary, that it will have vention inserted the proposition suggested by the effect of adding to the large amount of taxes the gentleman from Posey, in the Constitution, under which they are already groaning, the sum the Legislature would take it as a criterion for of four thousand dollars. And, sir, I would retheir action on the question, and would shield spectfully inquire for what purpose is this new themselves under the plea that the Convention tax to be levied I answer, simply for the purhad duly considered the matter, and had seen fit pose of aiding the pecuniary interests of a few to go so far and no farther, and therefore they editors in this city without any prospect of adwould not transcend the bounds of the action of vantage resulting to the people of the State. the Convention. He contended that if the For one, sir, I conceive that this resolution will Convention had the right to pass such a provi- not be the means of imparting information consion, embracing the whole subject, it should be cerning our proceedings to the masses of the done at once, and not left for the action of the people of Indiana; a few leading men in each Legislature. He hoped his amendment would county may receive a copy of the newspapers prevail-as it was merely a matter of inquiry — occasionally, but any general diffusion of inand if upon examination the committee should formation concerning our action among the esteem it necessary to make the change now people generally, by the proposed resolution, I proposed they could report accordingly. consider hopeless. I shall vote against the Mr. OWEN said he consented to the gentle- resolution and the amendment. man's amendment. Mr. PEPPER of Crawford moved to amend The question was then taken upon the amend- the amendment by adding the words "at the ment of the gentleman from Switzerland, (Mr. expense of the delegates." Kelso,) and it was concurred in; The question being taken upon the adoption And the resolution as amended was adopted. of the amendment, it was not agreed to. RESOLUTION ON NEWSPAPERS. Mr. SMITH of Ripley moved to amend the amendment so that three daily copies of the On motion of Mr. KELSO, the business was State Journal and State Sentinel should be suspended and the> report of Mr. MORRISON taken on the terms proposed by Mr. Defrees. of Marion, chairman of the select committee in The amendment was ruled out of order. relation to taking newspapers, was taken from Mr. KELSO. I have a word to suggest in the table. favor of this proposed expenditure of the pubThe question being upon the amendment lic money for newspapers. The people have submitted by Mr. EDMONSTON to the reso- sent us here to revise and amend the Constitulution reported by the committee, tion of this State, and the law that authorized Mr. NAVE said, that he had some knowledge this Convention provides, also, that the instruwith reference to the taking of newspapers for ment which may emanate from our hands is to the purpose of distributing them among the be submitted to the people for adoption at one of voters of Indiana, as he had had occasion for the regular elections of the State, or an elec-several winters to vote for or against a similar tion to be provided for hereafter; and it depends proposition, and from the experience he had had on their vote whether our labors here are to on the subject he was satisfied that the adop- have force and effect or to be null and void. In 117 order to advise the people of what we have will get from us. They want to know our done and the reasons that have led to our ac- reasons for acting this way upon one propotion, it has been thought prudent to distribute sition, and that way on another, so that they among them as much information as we can may themselves be enabled to pass a correct during the term of our deliberations; and the judgment on the result of our labors. I cononly two papers in which it is thought proper to tend, then, that we should vote for taking the publish a report of our proceedings are those largest number of these papers that will pubproposed in this resolution-the number of lish the Stenographic report of our proceedings copies ordered being five for each member, and in full, and that we should not take any at all my friend from Dubois (Mr. Edmonston) pro- of those papers that will not thus publish our poses to make even that small number still proceedings. smaller, giving three copies only for each mem- It is said, sir, that we are now about to pay ber. The gentleman from Dubois and myself a Stenographer the sum of ten thousand dolhave been together in this Hall before; and lars to report the proceedings of this Ponvenupon various occasions he has been in favor of tion, and for what purpose i Is he not employtaking newspapers and I have opposed him — ed to add to the general information of the and now in a certain degree our positions are people, by preparing a faithful record of all our reversed, he being in favor of taking the small- transactions! Those proceedings will be pubest, I the largest, number of papers. Now, lished in book form, and a copy given to each sir, I go for taking the largest number pro- member of this Convention, and a certain posed of those papers which will publish our pro- number of copies to the State Library; but ceedings and debates in full. The people of our when will the people be able to obtain them. State, or at least seven-tenths of them, will as i Probably not under six, eight, or nine months. readily understand what we are doing from these If, then, the Legislature should, in their wisproceedings and debates as we can ourselves, dom, decide that a special election for the deand therefore it is that I think we should dis- cision of the people upon the adoption of the tribute the papers containing them, freely new Constitution shall be held at the earliest and extensively, among our constituents. opportunity practicable-which course will be Sir, there is another reason why I think we perfectly proper-these books might not be yet should vote for this resolution, and it is this: printed or distributed among the people before Questions of vital importance will come up be- the election occurred. Is it not, then, all imfore this Convention, and it is essentially neces- portant that a speedy and general diffusion of sary that the debates which may.occur upon a knowledge of our proceedings, among the them may be at hand for immediate reference. people, shall be made? I apprehend that they It is absolutely important that each member will count the proposed expenditure as nothing, shall have upon his desk every morning the in comparison with the knowledge that will acproceedings of the previous day. Suppose that crue to them of the action of this Convention. an important question is under discussion for In regard to the editors who it is said will several days, can it be expected, for instance, reap the pecuniary benefit of this resolution, I that an argument made on Monday by one can only remark, that they furnish the necesmember can be replied to on Saturday by sary medium for communicating with the peoanother member, unless he is furnished with it pie. I have been abused and villified by this in extenso. The Stenographer will write out class of men, probably as much as any other the debates, to be sure, but he cannot furnish man in the state, and especially at Indianapoa copy to each member every morning. The lis, nevertheless they are here, and we must newspapers must take his manuscript and print take them as a kind of necessary evil. We it, and then we can be supplied with our pro- are, to be sure, giving to the editors of this ceedings. city, some advantage over the editors of other Another great benefit to result from this res- papers in the State, but through their instruolution is to be found in the fact that each mentality is to be furnished a great and valuamember will have the opportunity of sending a ble amount of information to the people of the copy of the paper containing our daily pro- State: In conclusion, I feel bound to say, sir, ceedings to every local paper in his county; that I shall vote against the amendment of the and those local papers will copy the proceed- gentleman from Dubois, and in favor of any ings, and having a general circulation among i proposition for increasing the number of papers the people, every section of the State will be to be taken by this Convention that shall pubmade acquainted with our doings. It is a mis- lish our proceedings entire. taken notion to suppose that not one in fifty Mr. FARROW said, he was opposed to the of the people of our State will read these pro- resolution. The people of the State generalceedings. Why, sir, the action of this body is ly, he believed, understood to a great extent, regarded with the most intense interest; a already, the questions that would come begreater interest, even, than was felt at the time fore the Convention. He represented a conof the adoption of our first Constitution-in stituency of three thousand persons, nine-tenths fact the people are expecting more than they J of whom were a reading people. The subscrip 118 tion books of the papers of this city would show form. Then if they were distributed over the that a large number of papers were taken in State, those who received them would get them his county. Those papers would, of course, in a tangible shape. However, he regarded the have an account of these proceedings and this whole matter as a useless expenditure. In his constituency would thus be notified of the work opinion, the people were not particularly intergoing on here. It was thus with the people of ested in what the peculiar views of this or that other counties. Many took the papers publish- gentleman might be upon the various subjects ed in Indianapolis, others took papers which discussed there. They were only interested in would doubtless, copy from the papers published the result of their deliberations, and when subhere, all that was necessary to an understand- mitted to them in the shape of a Constitution, ingof their action. He wasopposedtto scatter- they would be governed by their own view of ing a few papers throughout the State for the right and wrong. They would weigh it in the of benefit a few local editors. scales of equal laws and equal rights, and not Mr. SHERROD said, he hoped the resolution the opinions of any one man or set of men. as amended would not pass. Gentlemen had talked about liberality, and He was well satisfied that its passage would had said these papers should be sent to the hardfail to accomplish the good predicted by its fisted yeomanry of the country. This was all friends. Gentlemen talked eloquently about well enough. But this thing of being liberal extending light and knowledge by keeping the at the expense of the people, was a kind of libgood people informed of the proceedings of the erality that he did not approve of; and, if he Convention, and for one he desired that they was not much mistaken, it was one for which should know what was going on in that body. the people of Indiana would not thank them. But he doubted the means proposed by the res- It was not among the objects for which they had olution. He contended (and with great defer- been sent there. If gentlemen were determinence to the opinions of the members of the ed to have these papers, and in that way extend committee) that it was a useless and worse than their liberality to the bone and sinew of the useless drain upon the public treasury. He land, he thought it would look much more conwould appeal to the House, and ask, in all can- sistent, more patriotic, to run their hands into dor, was it right, was it just, was it in harmony their own pockets and pay for them; it would with the spirit and genius of our institutions, to prove one thing at least, that they were sintax the mass of the people for the benefit of the cere in their professions. favored few? For one, he could not subscribe The people of Indiana were taxed to death. to such doctrine. He had been taught a differ- They were groaning under the burthen of taxent lesson. He had learned that when the ation, originating from a State debt, that was mass of the people were taxed for any purpose overhanging them like a mighty incubus, which whatever, it should be for the benefit of the had wellnigh crippled the energies of this otherwhole, and not the few. This he believed to wise prosperous and happy State. be the true doctrine. It was the American These complaints had been heard. Reform doctrine; it was the doctrine of our ancestors. had been the watch-word. It had been preachIt had stood the test of scrutiny, and would ed during the last canvass, from the centre to the continue to stand as long as our institutions re- confines of the State. This was the great obmain permanent. j ject for which that honorable body had been He could not see, for his life, what they were } convened; and for one he had pledged himself to gain by the adoption of this measure, and he to economize, to watch and guard the public was willing to view it in its most favorable as- treasury; or, in other words, to keep his eye pect. Suppose they took these papers, he would steadily fixed where the cloud gathered darkest, ask how many of the people of each district and do what could be done to lessen the burrepresented,upon that floor would be benefitted then of taxation. by it? How many would receive these papers' He must confess that he was astonished at the Perhaps one in every twenty. And even.those spirit of extravagance manifested upon that who received them would be benefitted very lit- floor. Here was a propositiou to impose a ditle, if any. To-day he would send a paper to rect tax upon the people of from four to five this friend, and to-morrow to that one. And thousand dollars, and that, too, for an object, as the people would receive the proceedings of the he had contended, that was useless, and worse Convention in such a disjointed manner, that it than useless. would be of no service to them whatever. If At least he would have to hear a different gentlemen were determined to appropriate from tone of argument, backed by better philosophy tour to five thousand dollars for the benefit of than he had, before he could be convinced oththeir constituents, as they contended, he would erwise. Other gentlemen might vote upon this say, in the name of reason, let them apply in question as they pleased. For one he could not such a manner that it might have the desi- give his consent to support such an unjust measred effect; and, in his humble opinion, that ure. He was not there to represent sectionalcould only be accomplished by printing the ism or favoritism. He was there to defend the proceedings of the Convention in a pamphlet rights and interests of the masses. He could 119 aot think of, setting an example there that tlemen who will be kind enough to vote with would not-only exert a' pernicious influence for me in calling the yeas and nays, I shall feel the present, but would be handed down to pos- very much gratified. terity. The resolution was read, as follows: Mr. FOSTER said, he understood that this Resolved, That this Convention will take no resolution provided for the taking of a certain newspaper for distribution at the public exnumber of copies of the papers publishing their pense.;proceedings, and also for the payment of the rcomposition of thos proceedngs. This, he On the motion to suspend the rules the yeas,composition of those proceedings. This, he and n would remark, was not the usual course hereto- an nys were ordered. Mr. OWEN rose and addressed the Chair. fore pursued by the Legislature. If, continued Mr n resed heha Mr. F., I understand the amendment offered by FOSTER interposing, said he had an the gentleman from Dubois, it proposed to take Mr. OWEN. I will give way tothe entea less number of papers and pay for the corn- a n position. Now, sir, I do not like the tenor of Mr. FOSTER moved to amend the resolusthe resolution or the amendment. It is pro- tion by striking out all after the word "resolvposed that the State shall pay for the publica- ed" and insertin the followin: tion of our proceedings in the newspapers; but, sir, I am of opinion that the people will derive "That the Secretary be directed to probut little benefit from them. I am disposed to cure one copy each of the daily and tri-weekly think that the proper course to pursue, is to papers published in this city, for each member take this money intended to be appropriated of the Convention." for these papers and composition, and have a The PRESIDENT ruled the amendment out large number of copies of the old Constitution, of order. with the amendments that are offered here, It was accordingly withdrawn. printed to distribute among the people for their Mr. OWEN. Of all the resolutions that consideration. This, I think, would be much have been proposed here, I consider that of the.more satisfactory to them than if they received gentleman from Monroe the worst. If we -detached portions of our proceedings. They would do anything in regard to this printing, can then form their opinion of the new Consti- it seems to me the important thing to do, is to tution without recourse to the arguments of have the debates published and disseminated gentlemen in this Convention. I shall, at the among the people now, whether we take a sinproper time, present a proposition to this effect, gle paper or not, and I care very little whether that the Convention shall be supplied with one a paper is taken by any member of the Concopy for each member of each of the newspa- vention. The important matter seems to me pers which publish the proceedings. I move to be, that the debates should be published in that the resolution and pending amendments be the daily papers of the city, in order that they laid upon the table. may go to the country editors, so that they The question was taken on the motion to lay may select from the debates what they choose on the table, and to re-publish. Now, sir, we ought not to conIt was decided in the affirmative. ceal from ourselves that a large part of the exSo the resolution and amendment were laid pense of this publication we have already inon the table. curred. The gentleman from Switzerland esMr. BADGER rose and said, he was inclin- timates the cost of reporting our debates at ten ed to the opinion that almost every gentleman thousand dollars. I suppose it may cost some on this floor must desire to have this question two or three thousand dollars, but having a Sterelating to the newspapers settled; for until it nographer, the question is, whether the result of was definitely settled it would be called up to- his labors shall be circulatedthroughout the State day and voted down, and again called up to- now, or whether the publication shall be demorrow and again voted down. And when they ferred for six months or a year, when the interreflected that every speech of two minutes in est in our proceedings will have comparatively length draws from the public treasury five dol- subsided. Now I do not think it very importlars, it ought to admonish them that their words ant whether we take any newspapers or not; should be few and well ordered. but I do think it important that we should make I have risen twice (continued Mr. B.) to ask an arrangement, if we can do so on reasonable a suspension of the regular order of business, in terms, for the immediate publication of our order to present a resolution, and both times I proceedings, and I believe that such an arhave failed. Resolutions embracing the same rangement can be made. I believe that if we proposition, however, have been introduced by adopt a resolution that we will pay twenty other gentlemen under a suspension of the or- cents per thousand ems, we can have the work der of business. In relation to that I have done, and that without rendering it obligatory nothing to say, but I ask again a suspension of upon us to take any newspapers. If we take the order of business, so that I may introduce a them we must also pay the postage upon them, very short resolution, and if there are nine gen- and this will be a very considerable item. If 120 we go to this expense, I would much rather thousand ems for the work the printers will be pay a fair compensation to those journals that satisfied-but, at any rate, if we pay for the will publish pur proceedings daily, in full, so compositiont we shall have the debates and prothat every country editor may be supplied with ceedings of one day laid upon our tables on the a copy. I do not know whether the resolution morning of the next. as it stands would prevent you from paying a Mr. SMITH. It was to that point that I fair compensation for publishing the debates wished to call the attention of the Convention. in full, without which every body knows they Then I understand that the journal and debates could not be published. The editors cannot can be kept up in book form, and laid, in that afford to publish them without beingpaid for it. form, upon the desks of members every day, if Before I sit down, permit me to say a word the Convention now vote twenty or twenty-five in regard to some of the observations of the cents per thousand ems for composition. I degentleman from Hendricks. The gentleman sire to know if that will be sufficient to pay in asserted that it was solely for the purpose of full for all this work. putting money into the pockets of a few editors Mr. OWEN. I do not say that that will be in this city that the proposition was made. sufficient to pay for the publication in book Now, in the first place, the remark of the gen- form. I am not prepared to say that. I merely tleman is unparliamentary. No member has a said that the proceedings could be published right to impute any such motives to his fellow from day to day for that amount of expense. members. I do not impute to the gentleman Mr. SMITH. Well, sir, I desire to ascertain from Hendricks a deliberate intention to charge if an arrangement of that kind could not be us with what would be little short of corruption. made to bring out the debates in book form. Does he mean to say that the publishers have Mr. McCLELLAND (addressing the Presicome to members of this Convention and in- dent). What is the question before the Conduced them, by some undue influences, to vote vention? money into their pockets? The PRESIDENT. The question is on the Mr. NAVE. I had no intention in anything resolution of the gentleman from Putnam. that I said to impute any such motives. Mr. McCLELLAND. Well, sir, I am in faMr. OWEN. I take it all back, sir, but I vor of the resolution. I am opposed to taking am sorry that the wording of the honorable gen- these newspapers at the public expense. I have tleman's remarks would seem to convey the im- no feeling against any of the publishers of newsputation. If this resolution for taking the papers in this city, but I conceive that we have newspapers had no reference to paying for no right to appropriate the money of the people composition, I do not know that I should ob- for the purchase of newspapers. I represent some ject; yet, probably the Convention, if they three thousand voters. Suppose I have three hereafter determine to pay for composition, newspapers every day to send to my constituents might choose to order one or two copies of the how much will the whole of them be benefitted? paper for each member. I think it could not fail to operate unjustly and Mr. COOKERLY rose to a question of or- unequally. I do not conceive that we were sent der. He desired to know if the debate was in here for any such purpose. I am opposed to order. appropriating money which does not belong to The PRESIDENT. The question is on us for the purpose of benefitting a portion of the resolution of the gentleman from Putnam. the people of this State. If the gentleman from Debate is in order. Monroe would offer his resolution again, that Mr. SMITH of Ripley said, it appeared to the expense of these newspapers should be him that there was a good deal of misunder- borne by the members themselves, I would standing in regard to this matter of printing, appropriate my own money as liberally as any especially in regard to the expense. I desire, member of this Convention; but when gentlesaid he, to direct some interrogatories to the men propose to appropriate for this purpose the gentleman last up, who, I presume, is as com- money belonging to my constituents, I cannot petent to give us information as to the manner go with them. If some Delegate would move in which this work is to be done, and as to an amendment, declaring that we will take so whether the reports of our debates are to be many copies at the expense of the members of published promptly, as any other gentleman. the Convention, I would support the proposiWe have now a printer to this Convention, and tion. I desire to know if the gentleman can give us Mr. COLFAX said he rose for the purpose the information whether our debates can be of making a single remark, which was elicited published daily, so that a copy may be laid upon by what had been said by the gentleman from the desk of every member on the morning of Ripley. the day succeeding that on which the debate It seemed to be considered desirable that the takes place? expense of these newspapers should not be Mr. OWEN. I understand, sir, that if we thrown upon the public treasury, and one of adopt the resolution to pay forthe composition- the propositions that had been submitted was, and I believe that if we pay twenty cents per that members of the Convention should sub 121 scribe and pay for the newspapers, out of their from Hendricks, to fill the pockets of the pubown private resources. The voluntary sub- lishers with money, but to disseminate the rescriptions of members, he apprehended, would ports of our proceedings among the people of go but a little way towards remunerating the the State, because information of this characpublishers for the expense to be incurred in ter was only derivable from papers printed at publishing the debates, and it appeared to him the Seat of Government, and if the papers here that the object contemplated by the appoint- did not receive the patronage of the Convenment of a Stenographer to report the debates tion to enable them to publish these reports of the Convention would not by any means be they could not be sent abroad in any other way. attained by reserving the reports to be publish- How, he would ask, were the people to be ened in book form after the close of the sitting abled to arrive at a correct conclusion, and to of the Convention, and if reserved to be so give a vote understandingly upon the amended published in book form, members would have Constitution, unless they were furnished with no opportunity to correct any errors that might the reports of the proceedings and debates of be made in the reports; and to suppose there the Convention? Under this view of the subwould be no errors would be to suppose that ject he would leave it to the Convention to dewhich had never happened in the case of the termine whether they think it is doing justice reports of any deliberative body. How often to the community to withhold from them that was it that members misapprehended each oth- information which was only attainable through er-was it to be supposed that, amidst the the newspapers of this city, under the patrondin and confusion which frequently prevailed, age of the Convention. the reporter could comprehend every thing that Mr. WOLFE remarked, that gentlemen was said, with perfect accuracyl Clearly not, could accomplish the object proposed by putand it was important therefore, that an oppor- ting their hands in their pockets and paying for tunity should be afforded to make the neces- the papers. He was not for suppressing inforsary corrections before the reports became a mation, and he was ready to contribute his propermanent record. It appeared to him, there- portion of the expense out of his own pocket. fore, that it would be proper for many reasons, As regarded taking three copies of the daily that the Convention should agree to the reso- newspapers for each member, he thought it was lution, which proposed to give a moderate com- wholly unnecessary; they would go a very litpensation to the publishers, and to subscribe for tie way towards affording a correct view of one copy of the paper for each member. what was done. Mr. MORRISON of Marion said, he was in- Mr. MAGUIRE said that, in his opinion, this dined to believe that if the members of the was simply a business transaction, and it should Convention, generally, knew as much about be so considered and treated. If these papers this business of publishing as he did they would were useless to the people they should not be entertain a different opinion from that which taken. The arrangement was not, he supposed, seemed to prevail. Some delegates, however, a matter of very great importance to the pubmight perhaps think that it was proper that in- lishers of newspapers, and if it were, it would formation should be withheld from the people. not be proper to make it for their benefit unless Such gentlemen he would have no hope of con- it would be really advantageous and useful to vincing, but as there were some, who were de- the people. It had long been the custom of the sirous that information should be disseminated, Legislature to take the papers here for the purhe would give them the benefit of his opinions pose of sending out their proceedings to the which were derived from experience, andwhich people; and if it were important that the promight therefore be worth something. From ceedings of a Legislative body should be known, the demonstration that had been made after the he regarded it as of much more importance that committee had reported a plan, it appeared that this Convention should disseminate information the Convention looked upon the expense as be- as to their action. Sir, the people are to be ing too great, and he would say that the com- called upon at an early period-perhaps in the mittee were compelled to report as they did, spring or early part of the summer-to vote on from the fact that the publishers declared that the amended Constitution, and without these they could not set up the debates from the manu- papers they would have very little opportunity to script unless they were paid for the composi- investigate the nature of the amendments or the tion. By reducing the number of papers to be arguments, by which they were sustained or optaken, as contemplated by the amendment of posed. He cared but little about the matter the gentleman from Dubois, the whole expense personally, as he did not expect to make many attendant on the publication would not exceed speeches, but he did think it important that the $2,500. Whether the Convention would sub- constituents of members should have as much scribe for any papers to send abroad among the opportunity as could reasonably be afforded people would be for themselves to determine. them to see the proceedings of this Convention He desired that there should be a fair distribu- as they came fresh from the newspaper press. tion, however, of the work among the different That was probably the only way in which any papers-not as was intimated by the gentleman information could be received by the people pre 122 vious to the time when they will be called upon known by them; but sending them out in the to accept or reject the labors of the Convention. detached parcels, as proposed, they could know It is not yet determined that the Debates shall from them nothing satisfactory about what had be published in a volume by the order of this been done here. He had no objections to takConvention, and if that should be done it will ing newspapers, two or three from each office probably be several months before it will be of the city press, and sending them to their concompleted-and furthermore, after it shall be stituents, or to the local papers. The people published, very few of our constituents will have at home, he believed, were as well advised of time to examine its contents, It had been cor- the requisite constitutional amendments, as rectly remarked by the gentleman from St. their delegates here, and there was as much uniJoseph, (Mr. Colfax,) that the proceedings and formity of judgment amongst them. Theredebates here would be a sealed book to the fore, when the Convention should have commembers unless they were published in the news- pleted their work, he thought it would be adpapers, and an opportunity thus afforded to gen- visable to print all the amendments in pamphtlemen to revise the reports of their speeches; let form, and scatter them broadcast amongst and the volume containing them would forever the people. For the people desired chiefly to remain a sealed book to the mass of the people know what was done. They cared but very unless its contents were made known to them little about the whys and wherefores which through the press here in the first place, and then might be employed here. These were his copied by the papers in other parts of the State. views. He thought them correct, and intended The volume of course will be printed, either by to act upon them. He was disposed to take the order of this Convention or of the Legislature, newspapers here, but not at the expense of his but the number of copies will be small, and constituents. He did not think it a correct prinnine-tenths of the people perhaps will never ciple to tax the many for the benefit of the few. see it. To the proposition that each member Mr. FOSTER proposed to amend by striking should pay for his portion of the paper he had out all after the word "resolved," and inserting no personal objection. He would say however the following: that if the papers would be valuable to the peo- "That one copy of each of the newspapers pie-and if not they should not be subscribed in this city shall be taken." for-there was no impropriety in paying for Mr. KELSO said, that if anything at all could them out of the Treasury. As the agents of the be done with this matter, it appeared to him that people we send them the papers for their own it must be by way of compromise, and if he benefit and not for the benefit of the members. I was not mistaken, the gentleman from St. JoThe constituents whom he had the honor in part seph (Mr. Colfax,) had submitted the most practo represent could feel but little interestin the re- ticable view of the case. He would therefore sult of the question. They all had the best oppor- suggest, that, in the first place, they should retunity to make themselves acquainted with the fuse to amend, and then vote down the proposidoings of the Convention, both by personal at- tion of the gentleman from Putnam (Mr. Badtendance upon the sessions of the body, and ger) for the purpose of affording an opportunithrough the medium of the city press. He trust- i ty for a proposition of this kind to be made, ed that the question would be decided at once. namely: That there be taken one copy for It had been several days under consideration, each member, of such daily papers as would and he thought it must be well understood agree to furnish the proceedings and debates in by this time. He again disclaimed any person- full. One of the advantages of this arrangeal interest in the matter. He repeated that it ment, was this: whenever the arrangement was a mere business transaction. If the pa- should be made for publishing the proceedings pers were not worth the price demanded for and debates in fully, though but a single copy them they should not be taken. If however it for each member were taken, the proceedings was important, both to members of the Con- anddebatesinfull would necessarilyrun through vention and to their constituents, that informa- the whole edition of the paper, furnishing a tion should be disseminated through that chan- good opportunity, on all hands, for those gentlenel, let the papers be taken. men who talk about paying for their papers out Mr. WATTS said, he was constrained to of their own pockets, to go to the publishers acknowledge that his constituents, generally, and order any number of copies, which, in their had more information than himself; therefore, benevolence, they might be disposed to distribute. he did not feel like distributing much of what For himself, he was too poor to distribute many information we possessed, to be scattered broad- papers in this way; but, if this arrangement cast over the State, for fear it might produce a were made, he would purchase and distribute as bankruptcy here. But, as he had said on a for- freely as he could afford to do. He would like, mer occasion, this proposition to send out news- also, as a part of this arrangement, to bind the papers was not a means by which the people publishers of these proceedings to exchange could be informed of the proceedings here. If with all the local editors of the State. they could give the people regular files of these Mr. McCLELLAND proposed to amend papers, daily or weekly, something could be the amendment, by inserting at the proper place 123 the words, "at the individual expense of mem- Those who voted in the negative were, bers." Messrs. Allen, Badger, Bascom, Berry, BickMr. READ of Clark said, he was satisfied nell, Blythe, Bourne, Bowers, Bryant, Carr, that a majority were in favor of this proposition Chapman, Chenowith, Coats, Cookerly, Crawin some shape or other; but it seemed they ford, Davis of Vermillion, Dobson, Dunn of could not come together. He thought there Jefferson, Duzan, Farrow, Fisher, Foley, Foster, would have to be a compromise, and, preferring Frisbie, Gibson, Graham of Miami, Graham of that compromises should be made in a commit- Werrick, Gregg, Hall, Harbolt, Hardin, Heltee room, he would move that the resolution and mer, Hendricks, Hogin, Howe, Huff, Kent, pending amendments be referred to a select Kendall of Warren, Maguire, Mather, Mathis, committee of one member from each Congres- McClelland, McFarland, Mooney, Morrison of sional District. Marion, Nave, Nofsinger, Owen, Pepper of Ohio, Mr. OWEN said, for the purpose of bringing Reed of Clark, Ristine, Sherrod, Sims, Smith this matter to a point in a few words, he would of Park, Stevenson, Terry, Todd, Vanbenthuask leave to read a resolution, which, as soon sen, Watts, Wheeler, Wolfe, Zenor, and Mr. as it might be in order, he proposed to offer. It President-63. might be that upon hearing it, the Convention So the resolution and amendments were not would be willing to adopt it. The original pro- laid on the table. position involved an expenditure of about KELSO called for the reading of the i4,000, while the resolution in his hand would resolution and amendments, and they were acincur an expense of less than $400-striking cordingly read by the Secretary. off nine-tenths of the original amount; and he thought it would attain very nearly the same Mr. TAYLOR, in order to give the gentleobjet. man from Posey an opportunity to offer his proMr. OWEN read his proposed amendment as P position, moved to lay the pending amendments follows: on the table; which motion was agreed to. Strike out all after the word "resolved," and he question then reurring upon the origoi ~~~~~ ~insert: nal resolution offered by the gentleman from insert: Pa Putnam, (Mr. Badger,) "That the Secretary of the Convention be Badger authorized to ascertain from the Editors of the Mr. OWEN moved to amend by striking out Daily Journal and Tri-Weekly Sentinel, wheth- i and inserting the proposition which he had just er the Daily Journal will publish in its daily is- before read. sue, the entire debates of the Convention, if The amendment being read by the Secrepaid for the same at the rate of twenty-five tary, cents per thousand ems, the said debates being Mr. KELSO said, if he understood the readthence copied, in whole or in part, into the Tr- ing members were to subscribe at their idiWeekly Sentinel: Provided, that one copy of vidual expense. each paper be subscribed for, for each member Mr. OWEN. One copy for each member and officer of the Convention: and if he agree at the public expense. to the proposal, then the Secretary be author- At the request of several members, the ized to make such an arrangement, amendment was again read by the Secretary. rp,.,. i Mr. BERRY said, he believed the object The question being taken on the motion to would be best aai ed by i the vote di refer it. was decde in te. i would be best attained by taking the vote direfer, it was decided in the negative.! rectly upon the proposition of the gentleman Mr. EDMONSTON moved to lay the resolu- u Mr. EDMONSTON moved to lay the resolu- from Putnam, and so determine, at once, whethtion and amendments on the table. er they would take the papers or not; and in Mr. BORDEN demanded the yeas and nay order to bring the proposition before the ConThey were ordered, and being taken were vention, he would call for the previous quesyeas 60, nays 63, as follows: tion. Those who voted in the affirmative were, Mr. COLFAX inquired what would be the Messrs Alexander, Anthony, Balingall, Bar- effect of the previous question? bour,Beach,Beard,Biddle,Borden,Bracken,But- The PRESIDENT said, the first question ler, Carter, Colfax, Crumbacker, Davis of Madi- would be upon the amendment. son, Davis of Parke, Dick, Dunn of Perry, Edmon- The call for the previous question was secston, Garvin, Gootee, Haddcn, Holliday, Haw- onded by a majority of the Convention. kins, [Hitt, Holman, Hovey, Johnson, Jones, Mr. BORDEN demanded the yeas and nays Kelso, Kendall of Wabash, Kinley, Lockhart, upon the main question, and there was a secLogan, March, May, Miller of Clinton, Miller of ond. Fulton, Miller of Gibson, Milroy, Moore, Mor- The PRESIDENT remarked, that heretofore gan, Morrison of Washington, Newman, Niles, the effect of the previous question had been to Pepperof Crawford,Prather, Schoonover, Shan- cut off all amendments; but under the 18th non, Smiley, Snook, Smith of Ripley, Spann, rule for the government of the Convention, the Steele, Tannehill, Taylor, Thomas, Trimbley, first question would be upon the pending Work, Wunderlich, and Yocum-60. amendment. 124 The main question being upon the adoption Gibson, Gootee, Graham of Miami, Haddon, of the amendment of the gentleman from Posey, Hall, Holliday, Hardin, Holman, Hovey, Howe, was ordered to be now put. Lockhart, Logan, Mather, Mathis, May, McClelThe yeas and nays being taken upon this land, Moore, Morrison of Washington, Nave,, question, the Secretary reported-yeas 76, nays Newman, Nofsinger, Pepper of Crawford, Pra49, as follows: ther, Read of Clark, Schoonover, Shannon, Those who voted in the affirmative were, non, Sherrod, Sims, Smiley, Snook, Spann, Messrs. Alexander, Allen, Anthony, Balingall, Stevenson, Tannehill, Trimbly, Watts, WheelBarbour, Bascom, Beach, Beard, Biddle, Blythe, er, Wiley, Wolfe, Work, Underlich, Yocum, Boone, Bowers, Bracken, Bryant, Butler, Carr, and Zenor-55. Chapman, Chenowith, Clark of Tippecanoe, Mr. COOKERLY moved that Mr. Niles be Colfax, Cookerly, Crumbacker, Davis of Madi- added to the committee on the Practice of Law son, Davis of Parke, Davis of Vermillion, Dick, and Law Reform. Dobson, Dunn of Jefferson, Dunn of Perry, Ed- Mr. COLFAX moved to amend by substitumonston, Fisher, Foley, Foster, Frisbie, Gar- ting the committee on the organization of the vin, Goote, Graham of Warrick, Gregg, Har- Courts. He thought there would be a peculiar bolt, Hawkins, Hendricks, Hitt, Hog, H Huff, fitness in his occupying a place on that commitJohnson, Jones, Kelso, Kent, Kendall of Wa- tee. bash, Kendall of Warren, Kindley, Maguire, Mr. NILES remarked that he was obliged to March, McFarland, Miller of Clinton, Miller of the gentlemen for the compliment, if that was Fulton, Milroy, Mooney, Morgan, Morrison of its character, but that they would justify him in Marion, Murray, Niles, Owen, Pepper of Ohio, the assertion that it was in no way sought or Prather, Ristine, Smith of Ripley, Smith of desired by him. Scott, Steele, Taylor, Terry, Thomas, Todd, Mr. BORDEN believed that the State would Vanbenthusen, Wiley, and Mr. President-76. be benefitted by the services of the gentleman Those who voted in the negative were, from Laporte on both of the law committees. Those who voted in the negative were, Mr. NILES was then added, by a vote of Messrs. Badger, Berry, Bicknell, Borden, Convention to commitees number five and Carter, Coats, Crawford, Duzan, Farrow, Gib- seven. son, Graham of Miami, Haddon, Hall, Holliday, Hardin, Helmer, Holman, Hovey, Howe, Lock- E PROCEEDING AND DEBATES IN BOOK FORM. hart, Logan, Mather, Mathis, May, McClel- Mr. MAGUIRE asked and obtained the land, Miller of Gibson, Moore, Morrison of unanimous conseut of the Convention for a susWashington, Nave, Newman, Nofsinger, Pep- pension of the rules to enable him to offer the per of Crawford, Read of Clark, Schoonover, following resolution: Shannon, Sherrod, Sims, Smiley, Snook, Spann, Resolved, That the Printer to this ConvenStevenson, Tannehill, Trimbly, Watts, Wheel- tion be directed to print - copies of the proer, Wolfe, Wunderlich,Yocum, and Zenor-49. ceedings and debates of this Convention. So the amendment was adopted: But, before the question was taken thereon, And the question recurred upon the adoptiou On motion of Mr. WILEY of the resolution as amended. The Convention adjourned till Monday morn — The yeas and nays being demanded, ordered ing 9 o'clock. and taken upon this question, it was decided in the affirmative. AYEs-Messrs. Alexander, Allen, Anthony, MONDAY, OCT. 21st. Balingall, Barbour, Bascom, Beach, Beary, Bid-' The Convention met pursuant to adjourndle, Blythe, Bourne, Bowers, Bracken, Bryant, ment. Butler, Carr, Chapman, Chenowith, Clark of Prayer by the Rev. Mr. CAMP. Tippecanoe, Colfax, Cookerly, Crumbacker, Da- The journal having been read. vis of Madison, Davis of Parke, Dick, Dobson, Mr. KELSO rose and said, that he should be Dunn of Jefferson,Dunn of Perry, Foley, Fos- under the necessity of asking the Convention ter, Frisbie,Garvin, Grahem of Warrick, Gregg, to suspend the order of business for the purpose Harbolt, Hawkins, Hendricks, Hitt, Hogin, Huff, of enabling him to introduce a resolution, and Johnson, Jones, Kelso, Kent, Kendall of Wa- making this request, he supposed it would be bash, Kinley, Maguire, March, McFarland, Mil- proper for him to explain the obiect of the resoler of Clinton, Miller of Fulton, Milroy, Moon- tion which he desired to offer. It seemed that, ey, Morgan, Morrison of Marion, Murray, Niles, as they were now proceeding, the Convention Owen, Pepper of Ohio, Ristine, Smith of Rip- was making up more journal, to be published at ley, Smith of Scott, Steele, Taylor, Terry, the public expense, than could be either useful Thomas, Todd, Vanbenthusen, and Mr. Presi- j or proper. They were making out a complete dent-69. journal by the Stenographer, and the Secretary NoEs-Messrs. Badger, Berry, Bicknell, Bor- was keeping his journal, as he, most rightfully, den, Carter, Coats, Crawford, Davis of Ver ought to do. He maintained that one complete million, Duzan, Edmonston, Farrow, Fisher, journal was enough, and it was the object of his 125 resolution to define what portion of the journal Union county, had removed to Ohio, and reshould be furnished for the Stenographic report. mained there some ten or eleven months, and Forthe purpose of settling this question now, then returned, sometime in the month of Febhe asked for a suspension of the rules to enable ruary last, and located himself again in the him to introduce a resolution, which he read as same county. dollows: He would confess that this was rather a deliResolved, That a record of the proceedings of cate case, but he was not exactly satisfied with this Convention shall be kept in the following the conclusion that the committee had come to, manner, to-wit: All that class of legislative although they had investigated the case with matter usually contained in the journals of the better opportunities for arriving at a just result Legislature shall be journalized under the direc- than he possessed. But in a case of this kind, tionof the Principal Secretary. He shall pre- he was in favor of waiving all matters of mere pare, or cause to be prepared, an index to said form, and settling down upon the individual journal, and if the printing of said journal be whom the people had intended to designate as ordered, he shall superintend the same. He their delegate. This was all he wanted to know shall also prepare, or cause to be prepared, a in regard to any election. This matter, it seemmanuscript copy, to be deposited by the Presi- ed, had been in the first place duly investigated dent and Secretary in the office of the Secre- by the men presiding over the ballot boxes in tary of State, in pursuance of the 14th section Union county. of the act entitled an act to provide for the call He understood that the committee on elecof a Convention of the people of the State of tions were not disposed to disturb any of the Indiana, to revise, amend, or alter, the Consti- conclusions which the officers of the election tution of said State. had come to, except to exclude from Brookbank There shall also be kept a journal of debates the two votes he had named. Now it struck iunder the direction of the Stenographer; but him that since this man, Brookbank, was runsaid journal of debates shall not contain that ning for Representative Delegate, and other class of matter usually embraced in Legislative gentlemen were running for Senatorial Delejournals, farther than may be actually neces- gate, the manner in which the votes were printsary to identify and give a correct understand- ed would render the voter very liable to mising of the subject matter under discussion. name his candidate, as was manifest in the reThe rules were suspended, and the resolution suit. The name of the sitting member had having been read by the Secretary, itwas adopt- been written upon the ticket in the place of the cd by unanimous consent. candidate for Senatorial Delegate, by mistake. THE CONTESTED SEAT OF THE DELEGATE FOR It was obvious to him, from the circumstances, UNION COUNTY. that the voter intended to cast that vote for r. KELSO, from the c6mmittee on elections Brookbank for Representative Delegate; alMr. KELSO, from the committee on elections, t t w n o o t kin the res d a r, c n wh te f' though there was nothing of the kind in the resubmitted a report, concluding with the follow- He would like to have heard whether, inug resolution: OOV - port. He would like to have heard whether, upon the same paper, there was a Senatorial Resolved, That in the opinion of this Con- Delegate voted for. If that fact could be as-,vention, no person has been legally elected to certained, the mistake would be most certain the office of Representative Delegate to this and obvious. Convention from the county of Union, and that He was not sufficiently conversant with the the seat of such Representative Delegate in this law regulating the elective franchise, to enable Convention is vacant. him to discuss the legality of these votes which The question being upon the adoption of the had been discarded. Whether a voter, who resolution, had been living in the county of Union, by goMr. RARIDEN said, he would like to inquire ing to the State of Ohio and remaining there of the chairman of the committee, whether ten or eleven months-raising a crop there and there was, or was not, evidence before the com- then returning to Union county-whether mittee, that the sitting member (Mr. Brook- such a voter would lose the right of citizenbank) was familiarly called and known by all ship, so far aslto require a twelve-month's the various Christian names found upon the residence in the State to regain it, he could tickets in the ballot box, which were referred not determine; but it struck him that when,to in the report such an individual had voted, by the consent of Mr. KELSO said, there was no evidence of those who resided in the county, and when the stitutions, the jury system. He did not keep to conceive, or how it could affect the value of his promise, it is true; but we may learn the Grand Jury system. Does not every man enough from these examples to discover that, know that of all functionaries connected with while other nations are struggling to the ut- the administration of justice, the judges are the most to obtain free institutions, we are endeav- most powerless! The judge makes not the law, oring to impair those that we possess, and that is the business of the Legislature. He which are the only substantial safeguards of merely interprets it. He stands between the human liberty. I am not, however, very anx- legislative and the executive departments, and ious to cite foreign efforts for liberty, or to con- his decisions in themselves are as harmless as trast the institutions of other countries with the zephyr. He cannot execute his own dethose of our own. Neither would I uphold the cisions, but they must go to the executive be-,Grand Jury system because it is of venerable fore they can be executed. Why, sir, a judge age. If it is not a good system at this time has no more power to pack a jury than has any and in this place, I do not want it. other man, and, aside from the case of the noAnother objection which was urged against torious Jeffreys, there is, perhaps, not another Grand Juries by the gentleman from Tippeca- can be found in the whole history of jurisprucanoe, was, that in nineteen out of twenty cases dence of a judge attempting to exercise an unof indictment for felony, where the indictment due influence over the minds of a jury. The originated with the Grand Jury, there was no functions of the judicial department are entireconviction. Now grant that that is true, what ly harmless. When the decision of the judge does it prove 3 I am aware that many indict- is pronounced he can do no more; and even ments fail to result in conviction, though I am that decision is in many instances not his own, far from admitting the accuracy of the gentle- but already fixed by an establisned rule of law. man's computation. But what if felons do es- Well now what is proposed as a substitute cape? Would it not be so under any other for this system which it is proposed to abolish' system? Must it not always be so, if we have The gentleman from Tippecanoe, as well as I any regard for human rights, so long as the mind can understand his plan, proposes that there of man is finite, and can only arrive at truth by shall be an examination before a justice of the the slow process of induction t peace; that the evidence is to be written down, The gentleman (Mr. Pettit) spoke of the and that the prosecuting attorney is to say upon matter of expense, and observed that on that an examination of the evidence whether he head the question was scarcely worth debate. thinks it is likely that a conviction will follow. There we are perfectly agreed; and I would I do not wish to speak with the slightest disreonly observe, that if the functions of our Gov- spect of our justices of the peace. They are ernment were carried into execution with usually intelligent men-men of about the same.bowie knives and tomahawks, our expenses grade, as it regards information and moral 12 178 worth, as yout grand jurors. But I hold that guilty or not. His learning in such case will they are not competent to preside in a matter stand him in no hand. He is no more capable of this importance, not capable of withstand- of determining in such case than the man who ing the pressure from without, and of holding has never studied the profession. But, sir, were the law steady to the protection of the rights he ever so capable, it matters nothing. He is cf the citizen. I do not blame them. The not the judge of the facts; the law has wisely fault is not theirs, but that of the organization provided that a man shall be tried by his peers, of their courts. They have not sufficient power. who, alone, are to determine as to the facts alBesides they are not judges of evidence. Many leged; and, when you delegate this power to a. of them are not acquainted with a single rule prosecuting attorney, you not only put the libin regard to it, and could not determine what erty of the individual in jeopardy, but you usurp would be evidence for and what against a de- those rights which alone belong to that body of fendant. Let me illustrate this for one moment. men for whose benefit alike they have been seSuppose that a heinous offence has been com- cured. Sir, give me unprofessional men to demitted-say a murder-and some party,who hap- cide facts, and learned men to explain and apply pens to be suspected, is taken before a justice rules, and then you will have a beautiful sysof the peace in the neighborhood. Blood is tern-a system which will work admirably, and perhaps found upon his garments, or some other attain the ends of justice. These are the obcircumstance, which at the moment is not sat- jections which I have to that part of the propoisfactorily explained, tends to create an impres- sition. sion of his guilt. He is taken before a magis- The gentleman has said that Rome punished trate who is surrounded by an outraged popu- her criminals without the intervention of a lace demanding their victim. How is it possi- Grand Jury. Sir, to my understanding the alluble that the justice should not in some measure sion to that country is a very unfortunate allushare their feelings, and knowing nothing of sion. It is that same Rome which stabbed her the rules of evidence he lets in everything Casar, which crushed her Cato, which pierced. against the poor defendant, guilty or not guilty, the tongue of her Cicero, which enslaved miland he is handed over to a petit jury, who are lions of her people, and trod with an iron heel to determine the question of life and death, upon the neck of woman! That is the Rome without any other preliminary examination than whose institutions he cites as fit for the Anglothat had before a justice unacquainted with the Saxon race to copy, in order to preserve their rules of evidence, and influenced by the feel- liberties. There can be no question that the ing which pervades his neighborhood. And thus history of Rome is highly instructive-but init would always be; and it is not to be wonder- structive in what 1 Why, sir, in her errors, for ed at. The fault is not in the man, for none of she has not a single institution which we can us are perfect, but it is in the system. But safely copy. She may boast of her civil law,. again it is said, he is to write down the evi- but what is it when contrasted with our system dence. How, I would like to know, is he to do of common law? Admitting it to be a wise that when he does not know what evidence is? code, it is yet extremely defective, and, for that But suppose he happens to get down the evi- reason, the country over which that civil law is dence correctly, a case which would not hap- spread has been continually struggling to estabpen once in a thousand times, he is to have the lish the common law system of juries. Sir, in opinion of the prosecuting attorney to say my humble judgment, the allusion to Rome was whether that evidence will warrant a convic- exceedingly unfortunate, and can add nothing tion. Why, sir, the gentleman in this proposi- by way of recommending the abolition of Grand tion strikes at one of the fundamental princi- Juries. pies on which the rights of the citizen are Again: the gentleman said that the Saviour based, He wants a professional man who is was crucified without. an investigation before a versed in the rules of law to exercise a power Grand Jury. So he was, sir; that is abundantly which alone belongs to a jury; that is, to deter- true; but I am at a loss to know what he would mine what are the facts in the case. Sir, it is prove by the fact, and still more how he would a violation of all fundamental right; it is con- apply the fact in sustaining the proposition he founding the trial of a fact with the exposition has introduced into this body. Sir, this mixing of the law. up of temporal and spiritual things is not, in Why, sir, any man, if you give him assumed my judgment, a very proper course; but if it be facts in an indictment, will tell you whether allowed to combine them together, or to illusthe party is guilty or not. But when a little trate the one by the other, I have no hesitation evidence comes from A, and a little hearsay whatever in saying, that had the Saviour lived from B, and a little suspicion from C, and per- in any country in which the Grand Jury system. haps a little malice from D, and some vague prevailed, he never would have been crucified at reports that were heard by E and F, why all, because he had committed no crime. I sir, with such an amalgamation of evidence speak, of course, of the order of human events. and suspicions, I defy any professional man This, however, is a question which ought to be on earth to safely say whether a man is approached with reverence, and it would not 179 have been referred to at all by me, had it not body of eighteen or twenty-three men sumbeen for the allusion of the gentleman. With- moned from the body of the citizens of a county. out meaning anything personal, I must say, They are not all summoned from one portion of that he appears to stop at nothing. He is a county, but come from remote quarters of it, a bold reasoner. His allusion to the crucifixion so that there can be no collusion in regard to of our Saviour was certainly a daring method anything that may have transpired in any given of sustaining his proposition-too daring, I think, part of a county. They receive the charge of to serve his purpose; for where is the man who the court, which is treasured up in their minds. will contend that had the Grand Jury system It was well said by one of the gentlemen who prevailed in Judea, that the crucifixion would has addressed us on this question, that this is ever have taken place; I mean by the authority one of the modes, and an excellent one too, by of man? Sir, if the gentleman delights in cru- which a knowledge of the laws is disseminated. cifixions, let him use every effort he can exer- They come in contact with your courts and hear cise to abolish Grand Juries. The abolition of the law expounded from day to day, so that, in Grand Juries is the first step in the march to- a little time, you hardly have a man in your wards the establishment of such a system of county who has not served as a juror, and learngovernment as that under which the crucifixion ed something of the law. You do not call and took place, and I trust that this body will never recall the same men to serve, but you take your take that step. citizens according to a system of rotation, by Mr. President, I have thus very hastily, and which means you instruct them generally as to without much preparation, endeavored to an- your laws, and the method of carrying them inswer some of the objections which have been to execution; and thus you teach them, not only urged against the Grand Jury system, and with- to value their government, and duly to appreciout detaining the Convention longer in replying ate their own rights, but also how to examine to other objections which really do not appear to questions of truth and falsehood. Now compare me to have any force, I will now say a few words these men with your justices of the peace, and explanatory of my notions of a Grand Jury. see whether they are not, in their collective caLet us inquire, first, how a Grand Jury is consti- pacity, infinitely more able to understand and tuted. And here let me say to those gentlemen appreciate evidence,and to hold steady the rules who have alleged that they have been the wil- of law. It is unquestionably so. They sit ling instruments of blood shed, that I should away from the excitements of passion or prejulike them to cite an instance of the kind since dice, and have an opportunity of calmly and the year 1688. I undertake to say that the er- dispassionately considering the question of guilt rors of grand and petit juries never was a cause or innocence. of complaint since that time. But even sup- Mr. President, I have heard of poisonous repposing that, in past times, Grand Juries have tiles, when goaded to madness, turning round been what they ought not to have been, they and biting their own bodies, but I never yet are to-day precisely what I think they ought to have heard of a people enjoying civil liberty be. But, as I incidentally remarked, I do not seeking to turn round and destroy that liberty. pretend that they are perfect bodies. Your An enlightened people will never do so, and judges, your governors, your legislatures, are by placing, as I believe our people do, this Grand no means perfect. The highest functionary in Jury system on the same platform as they place this great Republic is not perfect. The Amer- the great charter of their rights, I am inclined ican people observe the doings of their Presi- to think that they will never willingly consent dent with most watchful eyes-and why? Be- to give it up. cause, even these high functionaries have some- Now let me consider, for a moment, the obtimes done acts which many have supposed to jection which is urged on the score of secrecy. be worthy of reprobation. But shall we, for This is supposed to be a great objection. Mr. that reason, abolish the office of President of President, how strangely men's minds will difthe United States! No man will so contend. fer in viewing the same subject. To my mind Our presidents have been blamed infinitely more this secrecy is the very beauty of the system, for their conduct, than ever was a grand jury in and I undertake further to say, that, from this the world, and yet, who contends that therefore very secrecy are derived some of the principal we should have no president l Nobody; no- benefits of the system. When gentlemen debody. claim against this institution on the score of its I do not wish to be understood as saying that secrecy, they evidently confound the question of Grand Juries have never erred; that is more the trial of guilt or innocence, with a mere inthan could be expected of any human being; quiry as to whether there are good grounds to but I do say that they are the most perfect sustain an accusation. Sir, nothing could be functionaries known under either the British or more shocking to all our notions of freedom, American Constitutions, because they have less than the idea of a body of men sitting in secret temptation to go astray, and fewer necessities session and hearing testimony with a view to of error than any other bodies. conviction. But gentlemen are clearly conWell, sir, what is a Grand Jury 1 It is a founding things which are totally different, and 180 putting upon precisely the same ground the before a court, ever result'in an indictment. question of conviction and the mere question of Now, so far from the small number of convicaccusation. Now, in regard to this matter of tions, in proportion to the number of indictsecrecy, let me ask, is the charge more a secret ments, being any objection to the system, is when it is laid before a Grand Jury, than it is in its favor. And this would be the case still when locked up in the bosom of the complain- more, if these examinations were all to be ant, to be unfolded only to a justice of the peace 1 made by justices of the peace, a greater proAnd is the judgment of twelve or eighteen men portion would thus result in acquittal. I cannot more to be relied upon than the mere state- not forbear to mention an instance or two; ment or affidavit of the injured party? Un- and, although, one or two instances would not questionably it is. From motives of prudence, go to establish a general rule, I am well satisthen, this secrecy is necessary. In the lan- fled that instances are sufficiently numerous to guage of the gentleman from Wayne, let me show what would be the general working of the ask, "who is it that fears a Grand Jury-the in- system. Within my own experience, and nocent or the guiltyt " Certainly it is the that not a very long time since, I knew guilty. The innocent go before a Grand Jury a medical gentleman, distinguished in his as they would go to a place of security. In- profession, who was arrested on a charge stead of being a terror to the innocent, as some of disinterring a dead body. The cirgentlemen would seem to argue from their hold- cumstances of the case, were briefly these. ing their sessions in secret, they constitute to He had two students who were studying medihim a rock of safety. The honest man on his cine with him, and by some means or other, farm, or in his work-shop, reposes there with they procured a body from which they perfect security, notwithstanding all you can were anxious to obtain the skeleton. They say to him about this "secret inquisition," be- had deposited the body, or a portion of it cause he knows that that inquisitionis composed in the canal, for the purpose of maceration. It of his fellow-citizens, who are honest men, like was discovered; and when found, was claimed himself, and who can have no object in perjur- by these students as their own property. He ing themselves for the sake of working mis- was, however, charged with the offence, before chief to their neighbors. a justice of the peace, and, although, he was a No, sir, it is not the honest man who fears a distinguished man in his profession, had many Grand Jury because it holds its sessions in se- warm friends, the abhorrence in which the afcrecy, but it is the criminal-the vicious. Sir, fair was held, was such, that scarcely a friend I undertake to say that no lawyer will allege would stand by him at the time. Here were that in his experience has he ever found an in- part of the remains of a human body, it was dictment or presentation without evidence that claimed by his students, and from that the cona crime has been committed. It may not al- elusion was immediately drawn, that a grave ways happen that the offense is brought home in the neighborhood had been violated. Every to the party; but it is the universal experience grave-yard was searched, but no trace of vioof all, that an indictment is never found with- lation was discovered, as connected with the out evidence of the commission of an offense. defendant. He was arrested, and brought beThis secrecy, then, is observed as a matter of fore a justice of the peace, and held to bail in prudence, just in the same way as we would the sum of $5000-an amount which would keep any other secret as a matter of prudence. hardly have been required in a case of manIt is not because there is anything wicked go- slaughter. Well, what was the evidence 1 ing on. Every bosom is more orless the reposi- simply that the remains were found in the catory of secrets. Every lawyer, every minister, nal, and were claimed by these two young stuevery physician, every tradesman-every man dents, which they wished to prepare to aid has secrets which it would be imprudent to ex- them in the study of their profession. Now. pose; not because there is anything wicked or I did not blame the intention of the justice of dishonorable in these secrets. And it will al- the peace in such case, because participating ways be found that those things which we cher- in the popular feeling his sympathies overruled ish the most, are the things which we talk his judgment. In five or six weeks the Grand about the least. It is in the nature of man to Jury met, and the charge being preferred, it do so, and this feature distinguishes the best of was found that there was not the remotest men as well as the worst. There cannot, shadow of evidence to sustain it. The charge therefore, be any real force in the argument itself, with the mode in which it was prosecuted which is based on the ground of secrecy. was, to say the least of it, an outrage upon the This brings me to notice the objection which man's sensibilities, and must leave an impreswas urged on the ground that indictments do sion of insecurity in the breast of every one. not at all result in convictions. Let me ask, But, gentlemen will ask what remedies have how many charges under the proposed system you before a Grand Jury 1 Why, sir, here would result in indictments? We know that is a remedy in this very case-the best of remnot more than one-half of those cases, where edies; for where a justice of the peace hearparties are held under recognizances, to appear ing both sides of the case, had committed a 181 man to take his trial, the Grand Jury hearing to discharge many persons on writs of habaes only one side, and that side too by no means corpus, who had been committed to answer likely to favor the accused, decided that there charges, grounded on no better evidence than was no ground of accusation at all. This the prejudice of a neighborhood. And if you was h's remedy. His peers, after a careful ex- take away this first pillar of human liberty, you amination of all the evidence that could be are only at the commencement of a system of brought against him, and without knowing any aggression, which will eventually sap the entire of the facts that could be urged in his favor, foundation of the liberty of the citizen. declared the charge to be unfounded. But, Mr. President, I feel that I have occuThus, while one man could not withstand pied the attention of the Convention longer the influence of public opinion immediately than I intended, and I will conclude these desaround him, and was carried away in his judg- ultory remarks, by appealing again to the reasment by the torrent of human sympathy, a jury oning ear of this body. I do not wish that they taking a calm and dispassionate view of all the should hastily strike down an institution from culpatory evidence, decided that there was not which has flowed so many benefits. If it had the shadow of a ground of accusation. What, nothing but age to recommend it, although then, would a man think-how would he feel from that alone it would be entitled to our restowards a Government whose institutions pect, yet I would not contend so earnestly for would secure his liberties in no better mode it. Nay, I would even say let it go. But when than that 3 And yet, if you abolish the Grand gentlemen propose to remove Grand Juries Jury system, such instances of error would be from our system of criminal jurisprudence, I of every day occurrence. think it behooves them to let us see very clearly Let me mention another case, which is now what they purpose to substitute in their place. pending in the distant part of my circuit. It I ask it from them; it is due to the Convention, was a case in which a husband and his wife's due to the State, due to the liberty of man. brother were accused of murder. After the ar- Mr. President, when I commenced these rerest of the husband and brother, the wife was marks I observed that I did not anticipate that also arrested, although, so far as the evidence anything I might say would materially alter went, she was as little concerned in thQ crime the opinion of this Convention on this subject, as any person upon this floor. What was the yet I could not be content to let the question consequence? Notwithstanding she was in a pass without giving my views and adding my state of pregnancy, she was committed to pris- little stock of knowledge on the subject to the on, in a very inclement season of the year. common fund. I hope the Convention will Here, now, came in the benefit of the writ of consider what I have said, and that they will Habeas Corpus, another great principle of hu- save me from errors if I am in error. All I man liberty. What was the evidence on which ask is that this body will ponder deeply the this woman was committed to prison? Simply proposition before they give their votes, and some words which the deceased had uttered the then I am sure they will be slow to remove an night before his death, which every man who institution whose advantages have exhibited knows anything of the rules of evidence would themselves so long and beneficially, and whose say at once was no evidence whatever, worth has stood the test of so many ages. When It had not the faintest semblance of legal you convince me that kings can rule without evidence. Still it Was a hard struggle to obtain Parliaments-that Presidents can govern withthe woman's release before the associate judges. out Congresses-and that Governors ought to Gentlemen will probably ask, what has the dictate laws without the sanction of LegislaGrand Jury system to do with such a case as tures, then I am willing to take courts without this? Just thismuch,thattheywouldhavedeter- juries. I place all these examples upon the mined at once, that therewas not sufficient evi- isame footing. Take away juries and you take dence to put the defendant on trial, and when from the people that which, of all others, is most they had decided that, then the imprisoned especially their privilege-the right to try facts. party could go forth and say, "the charge has In the explanation of the laws, or the applicabeen examined by my peers, and by them I tion of rules, I want professional men; but never was accused." That is the answer to when I come to try facts, I want the varied and every sneer that may be cast upon the wronged broad experience of the people. The right to and unfortunate. Now strike away that secur- accuse, as well as the right to try, depends upon ity, and adopt the system which has been pro- facts, which it is clearly the province of a jury posed, and I undertake to say that our liberties to determine, in both cases. Gentlemen argue will become at once insecure, and our enjoy- that they do not purpose to do away with the ment of them in the highest degree uncertain. petit jury system, and that a man will still be These are examples of the benefit of the work- tried by his peers; but, for my part, such is my ingsof the present system, and there are enough veneration for all the institutions of our counof them, of daily occurrence, to show the danger try which appertain to the liberty of the citizen, of abolishing any of those institutions by which that I would as soon think of abandoning the our rights are secured. It has been my duty petit juty system as the Grand Jury system. 182 I would as soon part with the one as part with may not have arrived at the maturity of our the other. What does this resolution propose! race, but we have undoubtedly made some farIt proposes to abolish Grand Juries altogether- ther progress towards its advancing manhood, not to modify or alter the system, ifnecessity for than had the people of medieval antiquity, alteration can be shown, but to do away with among whom the GrandJury system wasfirst esthem utterly and forever. Were the proposi- tablished, and from whom it has descended, untion a proposition to modify, I might consent to changed to us. And while I would not discard it, but to abolishing them entirely I am utterly the history of the past or the experience of opposed, and shall remain of that opinion until youth, I still hold that that history and experi.my nature is entirely changed. I repeat, in ence are mainly useful, as they expose the er — conclusion, that this institution stands upon the rors and evils of the past, and as warnings for same footing with others, by which our liberties the future. This is no less true of states and are guarded, and that this will be found to be nations than of individual men, We may well the first step towards dispensing with petit ju- cherish the memory of our early years. But ries and the writ of "Habeas Corpus." As I when, in the progress of our lives, we look back, have said before, so say I now. When you can as we may imagine that states are permitted to convince me that Kings can rule without Par- do, when Conventions of the people are called liaments, and that the twenty millions of people together, as we are now convened, to remodel in the United States can be governed by one their organic law, what should be the purpose man, then I may believe that courts may dis- of the retrospect' Not sir, that we may follow pense with juries. But until that is done, I blindly in the same path, but that, by the merncannot but believe that the law will be imper- ory of pastfollies and misfortunes we may regufectly administered by any court which has not late and improve our future course. And, sir, its co-ordinate branches, and that it cannot instead of matter of exultation and self comnmeet the end and design of its Constitution. I placency, who does not find in the retrospect assert again, that if this propoposition is carried occasion rather for repentance and reformation. into effect, it will be a violation of the great He who reviews his life with other purposes, charter of our liberties-the bill of rights, of the I apprehend, reads its history to small profit. Habeas Corpus act, and, in short, of that divine Ear estly desiring the benefit of whatever light right bestowed upon man by his Maker-the may be derived from the history of the past. I right to govern himself. come to the discussion of this subject oppressed Mr. NILES rose and said: I feel sir, the with a sense of its importance, and of the reweight of the responsibility that I incur in my sponsibility that will rest upon me, for my inpresent condition of health, in attempting to dividual vote, if given as I anticipate that it address this Convention, after two hours sitting will be. I am not one of those, if there be any in this Hall, on a subject of such grave impor- l such, who would recklessly destroy our civil tance as the one now under debate. fabric or mar its fair proportions. I would not, Mr. PETTIT sugested, that if the gentleman I to build a more comfortable edifice, tear down desired it, he had no doubt the Convention would the humble dwelling in which I find shelter, readily postpone the subject until to-morrow and which is still my home, until a better morning. had been provided. And I shall endeavor to Mr. NILES. I shall doubtless be able to act upon the same principle here. proceed with the few remarks I have to make. I am fully convinced that the present Grand I have been highly gratified, sir, at the disposi- Jury system is defective, and that it must, at tion which has been manifested by members of some time and in some way, be superceded. this Convention to open the door to debate, and The question with me, therefore, is not mainiy to permit a fair and thorough discussion of this whether it is unsuited to this country and this subject. age, for in that particular I concur fuilly with Gentlemen who have preceded me have ap- the spirit of the resolution under debate. But propriately referred to the origin and history of it is chiefly a question as to lwhen and how it the Grand Jury system. It is true, sir, that it shall be dispensed with,-as to whether any has come down to us honored with the coun- better system can here, and now, or probably tenance of a thousand years, and I am sure at no distant day, be matured and engrafted there is not a member of this body who would upon the institutions of the country. Before inconsiderately strike at its foundations. We concluding my remarks, I may take the liberty venerate the aged man. It is a sentiment com- of making a few suggestions as to a substitute mon to every well regulated human heart. We for Grand Juries, but which may be little worshould grow in wisdom as we grow in years. I thy the consideration of the Con:vention. would not undervalue the experience and les- A word now as to the practical workings of sons of antiquity. But when gentleman com- the Grand Jury system, its benefits and its depare the early portions of the historic period, fects. Gentlemen contend that it has been an with the mature years and ripened mind of my extremely useful part of our political institufriend from Wayne; it occurs to me that the tions. I am not disposed to join issue with truth is inverted in the comparison. We, sir, them on that point. It has doubtless answered 183 a valuable purpose both in this country and in were known. But in the language of another, Great Britain, in former ages and to the pre-" when goodness and truth descended from sent day. It has doubtless aided in the admin- heaven to earth, what was the cry of the popistration of justice, and, in the language of the ulacel Crucify him! crucify him!" And had gentleman from Wayne, been a terror to evil a jury been necessary to his condemnation, a doers. It may have afforded some protection jury from that populace would have ratified the to the liberty and private rights of the citizen cry. or subject against the power of the crown or the fury of popular excitement. But, sir, I do Mr. BIDD. Will the gentleman allow not agree with gentlemen that it has been the me to explain I spoke of ts application to great bulwark of liberty, and the great safe-man and mens affars The gentleman must guard of private rights. On the contrary, all not understand me as saying what the object of history proves that it has often been the pliant ivinejustice was. If it was necessary i the tool of tyranny and oppression. And not. sir, mind of Almighty God, that the Savior should because the men who have constituted Grand be crucified to reconcile ustice and mercy, it Juries have been less honest and worthy thanmust have been their neighbors, but, as I contend, because of Mr. NILES. I should be sorry to misconthe inherent defects of the system under which strue the gentleman's remarks. I, of course, in they are organized. speaking of this sacred subject, speak after the Throughout its entire history in England as manner of men and would speak with all reverin its very constitution, it has been the instru- ence and so understand the gentleman. I do ment of the crown. The pannel is selected not understand that men's hearts were pervertby the officers of the crown, without the knowl- ed to that end. But, in that great event, I see edge or consent of parties to be accused, a wonderful instance of the blended action of and without any essential right of challenge. God's providence and human freedom. Men'They are sworn to keep the secrets of the were permitted to act out the evil that was in crown, and to inquire into such matters as them. There, was illustrated an universal.shall come before them on behalf of the crown, principle-the same which reigned at the bloody and none but the counsel for the crown are ad- assizes and which caused the streets of Paris to mitted to their conclave. flow down with blood, during the first French It is true that whenever hatred of tyranny revolution, not with the consent of tyrants only,;should become intense, even such a body would but by the voice of the people themselves. be likely to show resistance. But when gentle- I may here remark that any argument in famen argue that a jury drawn indiscriminately vor of the Grand Jury system, drawn solely from an excited populace, would show the same from its antiquity, if it proves anything, proves resistance to the excitement under which they too much. It is an argnment which would susthemselves were laboring, I cannot understand tain a body of hereditary legislators in Great their logic. The way to the scaffold has lain Britain, with its bench of bishops. It is an arthrough the verdicts of twelve men twice ren- gument which has proved a main support of old dered. But still I submit to all thinking men abuses. The question is not how long has it who are acquainted with the bloody history of existed, but is it best adapted to the condition.British rule, how weak a barrier have not both of society among us, here and now? To deof those verdicts often proved. Let me not here cide that it is not, I admit, involves no little be misunderstood. Let me not be under- responsibility. stood as striking at or undervaluing the trial by A word now, sir, as to some of the evils of jury-a right which I hold as sacred and to the present system. It is expensive and burwhich I cling as tenaciously as does my friend thensome to the county treasuries. It is onerfrom Cass. But the palladium of public liberty ous upon the people who are compelled to and private rights lies not so much in mere serve upon Grand Juries. For eighteen or law-in statute books and the action of legisla- twenty men in each county, to be called totures. It lies further back-it has a deeper gether twice a year and kept in session, as offoundation. And when the great safeguard ten happens, a week or ten days, is no small tax which rests in the intelligence and integrity of upon the industry of the country. Still, sir, I government and people is lost, little protection agree with gentlemen that a free governcan come from any other quarter. It is more ment requires more checks and balances than a the spirit of an age than any system of the ad- pure despotism; that in the advancing stages of ministration of justice, which has led to crime civilization the machinery of the body politic and bloodshed in the name and with the san- becomes more complex; that the simple laws tion of law. My friend from Cass, (Mr. Bid- and usages of savage life will not meet the die,) in his eloquent eulogium upon the Grand wants of civilized man, and that we should Jury system, has remarked, of the condemna- cheerfully bear whatever burthens are necestion and crucifixion of our Lord, that that con- sary to the support of good government. But demnation could never have been pronounced if another system can be devised equally safe in a country where grand and traverse juries and useful to all the interests of society, but 184 far less burthensome and expensive, the saving ex parte character of the proceeding before of expense will be something in its favor. Grand Juries. They are all on behalf of the Another to me serious objection is the secrecy crown, or State, and none but the counsel for which constitutes a leading feature of the pres- I the crown or law-officer of the State, are admitent Grand Jury system. In that particular, to I ted to the conclave,while the jurors themselves my mind, it smacks too much of the Inquisition are bound to keep them secret to the end of and the Star Chamber. Itreminds one inevita- their lives. The party accused, is not only debly of another and a darker age. This objec- nied the privilege of being present, in person, tion to me is so insurmountable, that by no vote or by counsel, but is kept profoundly ignorant of of mine can I be instrumental in fastening it that which may seriously involve his liberty, or permamently upon the country. I was grati- life. I hold, sir, that this is all wrong and infled to hear the gentleman from Tippecanoe consistent with the highest rights of the citizen, (Mr. Pettit) speak with his accustomed bold- or the most judicious administration of the ness of the secret sessions of the Senate of the laws. I hold, sir, that there is no being who United States. With due deference to that I wears the human form, or possesses the attriillustrious body, I must say that when, in this butes of our common humanity, who should be middle of the nineteenth century, and in this treated in such a way- However steeped in incountry of all others on earth, they go into se- famy, and stained with crime, I would permit cret session, upon any subject, importantor un- him in all stages of a prosecution, to be confrontimportant, I cal feel for such an act, little more ed with his accusers, and to meet the witnesses respect than I should feel for sixty hooded against him face to face, with the privilege of monks of the middle ages, sitting among us as cross-examination. Then he may elicit facts the Holy Inquisition. I hold that a great and in his exculpation, and if witnesses, upon his fifree people should do nothing which they are nal trial, make statements in conflict With their ashamed or afraid to do openly and in the face evidence upon the first examination, he has the of all the world. Sir, such things are all in power to prove it. Such a privilege should conflict with the spirit of this age. I desire never be withheld. The State can afford to be that whatever affects the rights of the citizen manly and generous, and to give to the poor or the welfare of the body politic should be culprit, every opportunity to show that he ought open as the light of day. not to be condemned. But it has been said that secrecy is neces- m rm, sary to prevent the escape of parties accused. tht n n sfrom Cass, has well argued It is an undoubted fact that in nine cases consent of his peers. I meet the gentleman, out of ten of the graver offenses in which onse h on grund, and, even go muh frther. indictments are found and convictions re- on his own ground, and even go much further suit, the accused party is already in jail I contend, not only, that he should not be put or on recognizance, when the Grand iJury upon trial, in a criminal proceeding, without the or on recognizance, when the Grand Jury consent of his peers, but that the accusation meet. But if there is danger of escape, he is ost f h eers, but that the usation subject to be arrested at any moment, on the should not be preferred upon a mere one-sided subject to be arrested at any moment, on the affidavit of any prosecuting witness before any e arte examination, in secret session, and where he and his counsel are forbidden to inmagistrate. And it speaks much in favor of trude. How such a plan can be less merciful or the law-abiding character of the American peo- just, than the common system, I am wholly unpie, that cases of crime are rare, when there is a th como t o no one ready to aid in bringing the offender to abe ima justice. I As has been forcibly remarked by the gentleIt has been argued elsewhere, if not here, man from Tippecannoe, Grand Juries, as at that if the seal of secrecy is removed from pro- present organized, are often the vehicle for perceedings before Grand Juries, causes, will be sonal animosities. Petty malice would shrink prejudged in the public mind, so that an impar- from the face of day, while the honest purpose tial traverse jury cannot be had. It is a suf- to bring an offender to justice, would ask no ficient answer to such an argument, that in a concealment. very large majority of cases, at present, public The gentleman from Cass, has referred with examinations do take place, before committing propriety and effect, to a case coming under magistrates, without any essential effect upon his own observation, in which a man was rethe final trial. We cannot if we would, keep cognized by a justice of the peace, through the from the public ear, the circumstances attend- influence of popular prejudice, the complaint ing the commission of crimes. But, some gen- being dismissed by the Grand Jury. I am far tlemen say, reform the system in this respect. from denying to the Grand Jury all merit It Sir, do away with its secrecy, and you strike a is true, that individual cases do not settle prinfatal blow at:its most distinctive feature, at ciples, or establish rules, but, they may help to the principle which underlies it all, and which illustrate their truth and propriety. In conis involved in its very name. trast with the instance spoken of by the gentleBut, there is to my mind, another objection al- man from Cass, I may be permitted to mention most equally insurmountable. It is the strictly j two cases within my own knowledge, of a 185 strikingly opposite character, from that related swer. They acted in the dark. Suppose, sir, by him. that those proceedings had been open and pubAt the last Spring term, of the Marshall Cir- lie-that the defendant had been permitted to cuit Court, IJwas employed by an aged man, just be present with his counsel, and to cross examas the cause was called for trial, to defend him ine and explain-think you that that indictment against an indictment for a common assault and would have been foundl battery. On reading the indictment, I noticed I admit again, that such single instances esthat the sirnames of the defendant, and prose- tablish no rule; they are of but little comparacuting witness were the same. I asked my client tive weight or importance. But if gentlemen if they were relatives. He replied that the can array individual cases showing the virtues prosecuting witness was his son. I inquired of the Grand Jury system, we can array quite with astonishment, why it was not reconciled, as many illustrating its defects. What pracand why they permitted such a case to come ticing lawyer in this body, or what other geninto court. He said, that his son did not tieman accustomed to be about court-houses, wish to prosecute it, but that he was compelled but has seen evidence that the secret sittings of to do so. On inquiry of his son-a man some for- Grand Juries are often made the medium through ty years of age-these statements were con- which malicious or prejudiced individuals seek firmed. I also, learned that a previous bill to wreak personal spite and spleen upon their of indictment, had been found for the same of- neighbors! And who, if the present system is fence, but was quashed for some informality retained in its distinctive features, shall not in the empannelling of the Grand Jury. I stated witness it again? the facts to the Court, and called upon them to Then, sir, if the system be defective, the order a nolle prosequi to be entered in the ~case, question arises, what better can be devised' If which, as I thought, was very properly done. no better system can be suggested-no one I can refer the gentleman to a still more which, we may safely adopt-then I would not notable case. It is preserved among the records be ready at this time absolutely to abolish the of one of the northern counties of this State, present one. I would rather leave it to the that one of the best citizens of that region-a wisdom of the Legislature. But I would, by man some fifty years of age, whose character for all means, so modify the Constitution as to give integrity, and moral worth among his neigh- them power to act upon the subject. A slight bors, is, and always has been, as far above re- verbal alteration would accomplish that object. proach, as that of any man who walks this foot- Here I may notice, sir, that it has been said stool, was indicted for perjury. In order that that the cause of complaint against Grand Juthe case might be disposed of without de- ries among the people is, that the laws are lay, he consented to come into court, and sit above the standard of public morals. There quietly by, without utterring a word in his de- may be something of truth in the remark; but fence, either, in person, or by counsel. A jury do not gentlemen give undue importance to the was impannelled, they heard the evidence only mere administration of the laws, in estimating for the prosecution, and they acquitted the ac- its effects upon society Men are not reformed cused, as they could not fail to do, without a by being incarcerated in jails, or sent to penidissenting voice, and without a moment's hesi- tentiaries, or hanged by the neck. The retation. The defendant had been long known formation and regeneration of society must in an older portion of this State, and I assure commence further back-far back as upon the you, sir, that there are not two men living who mother's knee and around the domestic hearth. entertain a shadow of doubt, as to his inno- I would rather, sir, aye, a thousand times cence. I will add, that I believe the prosecu- rather trust to the influence of protected homes, ting witness was an honest man, but acting to sound, thorough, well-sustained free schoolsunder the influence of tempory excitement and to the teachings of the ministers of the gosprejudice, from which, even good men are pel-the peaceful observance of the Sabbathnot always free; and to the quiet but all pervading influence of In saying this, sir, I would not disparage the the christian religion, than even to the code of Grand Jurors themselves. I claim that there Draco, executed to its minutest letter. The one is no more erlightend portion of the West than remedy is at best but palliative, superficial and that part of Indiana, in which it is my fortune to repressive, while the other is curative and radical. reside. I respect the Grand Juries of that re- The one is like plasters patched upon the surgion of country. They have been intelligent, face, while the other reaches to the constitution high-minded men, intending honestly to dis- of the patient and works a final cure. charge their duties, though I have often Let me not be misunderstood. I do not unthought that they must feel humiliated at the dervalue these repressive remedies. I am. nature of those duties, or rather at the manner no radical in any odious sense of that term. in which they are compelled to perform them. I would not discard the administration of crimiI hold the fault to be in the system more than nal justice. While it must be admitted to be in the men. But how, it may be asked, could an evil, it is a necessary evil, of the benefits of this man have been indicted? I cannot an- which I would by no means deprive the State; 186 though I hold that it is useful mainly in pro- ality, and with great diffidence on my part, and portion as it is open, and mild, and merciful. profound respect for the opinions of all other The gentleman from Tippecanoe has sug- gentlemen, I will ask the indulgence of the gested that the power of preferring indictments Convention while I submit a few suggestions might be left with individual justices of the on this point. peace. Now, sir, it occurs to me that that is a pow- The office of justice of the peace is at preser not to be entrusted entirely to any one man. ent considered an unimportant one, and the, Besides, there are some twenty or more justices most judicious selectious of persons to fill it are of the peace in a county; and were any and not always made. But I take it for granted, every one of them to have the power to order a that somewhat in proportion as you dignify and man to trial in the circuit court for any offense, give importance to the office, better men will I should fear that the number of groundless be elected. Now, sir, it seems to me that a prosecutions would be increased. I thank the kind of court of inquiry, as perhaps it might be gentleman for his able effort in exposing the called, could be formed from among the justices evils of the present system; but I cannot favor of the peace in the different counties, somewhat his substitute. I have not held any consultation after this manner. Let four or five of these with the gentleman on the subject. I am not magistrates be selected, in such a way as the disposed to find fault with any one's scheme. Legislature shall prescribe, to constitute the I only say, that before I would consent to abol- court. They might be selected by lot, or what ish the present system by Constitutional pro- would perhaps be better, the four or five oldest vision, so that it could not be restored by the justices of the peace-that is, those longest in Legislature, I must see something clearly better commission-in the county, might ex-offiio be to be substituted for it. That is with me a the men to compose it: provided, however, sine qua non. that no two should be frem the same township. The gentleman has said, that if the present This court might meet semi-annually or quarsystem is a bad one, we must lop it off-ampu- terly, or at such intervals as should be deemed tate it. Now, sir, I agree with the gentleman best, at the court-house in the county. It that the present system, in its leading charac- should be their principal duty, on behalf of the teristics, is a bad one; but instead of lopping it State, to inquire into all such violations of the off at once, I would be inclined to wait for the penal laws as should, in the language of the right time, and till the public mind is ripe for oath now administered to Grand Jurors, be a change. Festina lente-" make haste slow- brought before them or otherwise come to their ly "-is a maxim no less valuable in politics knowledge, and upon sufficient evidence, to orthan in the economy of life. How would a der bills of indictment to be preferred by the skilful surgeon treat a patient suffering from a prosecuting attorney, against the parties accusmalignant tumor? He would be careful not to ed and for the offenses charged. The parties amputate prematurely. He would feel his pa- accused would then be committed or held to tient's pulse, examine all the symptoms, and bail as justice should require. And the causes wait for the favorable time. By the one course, would stand for trial at the next term of the the patient might be thrown into a fever: by circuit court. These proceedings would, of the other, the wound might be healed by the course, be all open and public. The party acfirst intention. cused should have the right to be present il I cannot say that I am prepared to engraft person, and by counsel, to hear all that was any plan permanently upon the Constitution. proven against him, and to cross-examine the My present idea is, that it would be best to witnesses for the prosecution. The accused'leave the whole matter of a substitute to suc- could generally be present, if he desired it, and ceeding Legislatures, who may embody the if not present, he could learn before he was wisdom and experience of coming years. By brought to trial who wer te e witnesses, anJ providing, as now, that "no person shall be put the nature of the evidence aTainst hin. He to answer any criminal charge but by impeach- could then prepare understanldingly for h:in dement, or by presentment or indictment," with fense. This court might hear only the ev - the addition of these words, to be preferred dence for the prosecution, with the right of.by a Grand Jury, or in such other manner as cross-examination on the part of the defendant, the Legislature may prescribe, we would do all or they might be authorized to hear both sides that seems to me necessarily to devolve upon fully, as should be found most expedient. Inl Ithis body. Give them the power, and it is my the one case the evidence should be such as to present opinion that the people will require the create a strong probability, and in the other, as Legislature to provide a substitute for the pres- to exclude reasonable doubt of guilt. Our sent system. I consider that in its ultimate crininal code is very simple, and such a body practical effect, it would be nearly equivalent of men would certainly be as competent as the to adopting the gentleman's resolution in terms. majority of Grand Jurors, to determine what A natural inquiry, in determining the main constitutes a violation of any of its provisions. question, is, what substitute do you propose. It is saying little for the intelligence of our peoNow, sir, without claiming any merit or origin- ple, to suppose that five such men would be 187 dependent on the brief charge of a judge for I of crime upon trial, were suggested; the one their knowledge of what amounts to a crime. being the present Grand Jury system, and the But if that were thought very important, they other similar to the one I have proposed, who, could meet on the first day of the circuit court, I ask, would hesitate in his choice l Suppose and receive a charge and be under the super- it were a new question,would any man, instead vision of the court. It would be difficult now of the open accusation, preferred upon the dito go fully into detail. As the proceedings be- rect responsibility of officers of the law, accept fore this court would not be in the nature of a the burthensome, Star Chamber system of trial, a complaint though once dismissed, might, Grand Juries as now organized? And indeed as before a Grand Jury, be considered again, if its feature of secrecy alone were removed, unless barred by the statute of limitations. who would think of retaining so unwieldy a Proceedings of this character are nothing final. system as the present? I am by no means preNow, sir, who are these justices of the peace, pared to say that it is best to ingraft such a that we should be afraid of them? They plan upon the Constitution, but I am far from are our fellow-citizens, elected by the people, believing, should the people have the power, and none the less plain, sensible, honest men and should it be their pleasure to adopt it, that -than if they held no commissions. They are it would not meet the wants in the case. all, at present, conservators of the peace, and But, sir, gentlemen seem to fear that we are would be none the less so under the plan pro- striking at the trial by jury. Sir, I do not call posed. that exparte and secret proceeding before a Now I do not undertake to say that the sys- Crand Jury, a trial. I call that the trial by jury, tem I have briefly sketched is what we need. when the party accused has the right to a change But it does seem to me that something could of venue from one county to another, and if be formed from it that would be better, at all need be, from one circuit to another-when he events, than the present secret, inquisitorial has the right of challenge indefinitely, till and expensive system of Grand Juries. twelve men are found, who are impartial and Again, sir, this court might have the power unprejudiced-when the whole case is fully to try and summarily dispose of, without the heard and the jury is called upon, by the defenintervention of a jury, all petty offenses, such Idants counsel, to allow something to the infirmias retailing without license, smaller cases of ties of our nature, and to deal gently with the assault and battery, gambling, and the like, in erring, as they hope for forgiveness themselves; which the fine actually imposed by the judg- when the Judge charges in the spirit of Christianment of the court, should not exceed some ity and of the common law, thatit is better that moderate amount to be designated. This tri- ninety and nine guilty men should escape, than bunal would approach nearer to the character that one innocent man should suffer, and that if of a jury than to that of a mere court, and in there is one reasonable doubt as to the defendants this way much time and expense in the higher guilt they are boundto acquithim-when if injuscourts could be saved. tice is done he is entitled to a new trial, and when But gentlemen seem to fear that justices of after all,if there be error, he has the right of apI the peace would act oppressively. Now I ap- peal. That,sir,is what I mean by the trial byjury, prehend that there would be no great dangerof a privilege finally wrested from king John at the hard cases of which they speak. At all events, Runnymede, and one of our noblest birthrights. should they occur, the public would know it And, sir, with such a guard as that thrown and they would know whom to hold respon- around the personal rights of the citizen, I ask sible. you if he is injured by being openly put upon Mr. FOSTER proposed, that as it was after his trial, by a tribunal such as I have indicated, the usual hour of adjournment, if the gentle- when it is found that public justice requires that man from Laporte would give way, and consent he should be tried? But, sir, let the public mind to continue his remarks in the afternoon, he and public morals fester and grow corrupt and would move an adjournment. what is even the trial by jury vvorth-the trial Mr. NILES said, he preferred to finish what by jury so identified with our civilization. But, he had to say then, and if the Convention I stand by the trial by jury; no man shall go would indulge him a few moments longer he further than I will in just encomiums upon it. would conclude. He might be in danger of My right arm should sooner fall palsied by my inflicting a long speech after dinner. side, than I would assail or sap its foundations. Several MEMBERS. We shall be glad to When I assail a system far more in accordance hear you. with the spirit of a former and a darker age, Mr. NILES. No, sir. I prefer to go on let it not be understood that I make war upon now. Now, sir, the question is not what has the sacred right of trial by jury. been, what has come down to us from a remote Then, sir, in conclusion, I have only to say antiquity, but what is best forus here and now. that I feel the responsibility of the position I That is the question. I will ask every gentle- have assumed in reference to this subject-it is man on this floor, suppose that now, for the a responsibility which any man would gladly first time, two methods of putting men accused avoid. It may be, as remarked by the gentle 188 man from Wayne, too heavy to be carried and the inverted order of the political edifice reared too light to carry me. That matters not. It is in this country, they were eminently conservamy desire simply to do my duty. If the present tive of the rights and reputation of the citizen. system is evil in its essential features, as it seems Well, sir, I wish to notice some of the obto me that it is, I desire to see some better jections that have been made to Grand Juries. system substituted in its stead. But I repeat The gentleman from Lafayette says that they again that I would not be willing to see any are relics of kingly power-unfit to be retained system engrafted upon the Constitution, unless by a free people. Another objects that its it should appear after the most thorough discus- practices are inquisitorial, inasmuch as its session, fully to meet the exegencies of the case. sions are held in secret, and ex parte testimony On motion by Mr. PETTIT, the Convention only taken. Another gentleman sums up his adjourned until two o'clock. reasons for supporting this proposition of the AFTERNOON SESSION. gentleman from Tippecanoe (Mr. Pettit) by saying that Grand Juries are too weak to punThe consideration of the special order was ish the guilty, and too impotent to save the inresumed. nocent. And still another denounces the instiMr. RARIDEN remarked that he would not tution on the ground that it is the hand-maid of insist upon the right to the floor if any other malice, and encourages malicious prosecutions, gentleman wished to address the Convention at and inasmuch as England has taken the initiathis time. tive step in their abolition, we should not be SEVERAL VOICES. Go on-go on. behind her. Mr. RARIDEN. As it seems to be the I like the spirit thus far-I admire the temper wish of the Convention, I will proceed now, manifested in this debate-I admire the open while the subject is fresh in my mind. boldness with which opinions are avowed, but Mr. President, I will not take up the time of I take the position that instead of the instituthe Convention by referring to any thing irrele- tion being obnoxious to all the sweeping charges vant to the subject matter under discussion. I I have briefly recapitulated, that it is the handshall not even turn aside to defend myself, or to maid of virtue and order-that its foundations sustain my personal position, or to reply to are laid deep in wisdom and in love to mangentlemen who have seen fit to remark upon kind, and that it is admirably calculated to premy age, and from it to infer that my associa- serve those rights which inherently belong to tions and predilections are so entirely with the the people, as well as those they have delegated past that I am unfit to advise in councils with to the government for their own good. reference to the future. I shall not stop to de- It is not a relic of kingly power. I admitfine my position, or declare the principles upon ted in the beginning that in its earlier history which my action is based. My action and my the Grand Jury might have been made an inprinciples are known, and they must go for what strument in the hands of the king's minions for they are worth. the upholding of the prerogative of the crown, but But there is one misapprehension into which this is an accident of the system, not an inhergentlemen have fallen, as to my remarks made ent principle of it. For in its establishment day before yesterday upon the philosophy of the system was certainly looked upon by the Government, and which it is important should people as an amelioration of the power of the be corrected. I did not say that "the Amer- king; and that amelioration arose from an inican people turned this bauble which we call exorable law of human nature. The king hima crown upside down." I did say that our self, acting from his own feelings, might never forefathers inverted the whole theory of civil have trammeled his power with such inquisition, government, when they proclaimed the sublime but the caste of English society ranking second truth that all power resides originally and ex- from the king could not forget the caste next to clusively with the people, and that government them; their associations and sympathies were possesses no powers except such as are specifi- more with this third class, and thus the nobility cally delegated to it by the people through their of England wrung from the. crown the concesdelegates, whereas the old and monarchical sion of the right to all citizens to be first adtheory was that kings rule by the grace of God, judged worthy of trial by a Grand Jury before not by the grace of the people; that all power they could be publicly tried by a petit jury. resides with the king, and the people have none Therefore, I say, that the Grand Jury is no except such as is granted from the crown. more a relic of kingly power than any other inTherefore I said that Grand Juries, or the insti- stitution of society originating at so remote a tution that may have stood as the prototype of period. our Grand Juries, although they may at first Now, sir, for a moment let us look at the phihave been used as the auxiliaries of monarchs, losophy of this thing, and, although I am not and at times subserved their interests as-opposed accustomed to refer to books in debate, I will to the liberties of the subject-I say although refer to one or two upon this occasion. In the Grand Juries may have been thus perverted un- writings of the great philosopher, Montesquieu, der a monarchical form of government, that in it is asserted, and Thomas Jefferson fully com 189 mends and endorses the sentiment, that the right state, but through the elective franchise, and of society to punish criminals is founded in the are component members of society, with whose original compact by which men resolved them- interests and happiness their own is inseparably selves into a society. Men, when they formed interwoven. They are supposed to be men of society, agreed to give up so much of their nat- respectability, to whom the characters and the ural rights as were inconsistent with the good lives of their fellow citizens may be safely enof society at large. Among other things, each trusted; men, in whose breasts sentiments of individual agrees to give up the right of redress- truth and humanity are uppermost; men of firming his own wrongs, and to refer his grievances ness and discretion, who cannot be carried to the judgment of the mass of society, or to away by the hope of popular favor for the fear that tribunal established by that majority, for of popular fury. the redress of wrongs. The tacit acknowledge- But, the gentleman from Tippecanoe (Mr. ment of every person when he enters society, Pettit) says that the delay in justice, growing is, that he will obey the code of morals agreed out of the system of Grand Juries, is great, and upon by the majority, right or wrong. Now, that but one in twenty of the guilty are ever then, who is to determine whether a member of punished. This may be true, and it grows out society has broken this code of morals or not? of the great caution which the spirit of the inWho is to accuse him 1 While the Star Cham- stitution impresses with regard to the life, libher was in existence, the king accused the sub- erty, and property of citizens. The gentleman ject, who was forthwith brought to trial. But also says that the institution is inquisitorial in in this country, the king, which we call the its nature and process, and another declaims state, has neither the power nor the right to ac- against it because all the evidence is of an ex cuse a person of crime, and bring him to trial. parte character. Now, so far from depreciating So jealous were our fathers of the power of the the secret and ex parte features of the system, state, and of the rights of the citizen, that the I sincerely think they are the most humane and Grand Jury system is so arranged that the citi- pacific that could have been devised. If you zen must be adjudged worthy of trial by his make the examination public, it must be conneighbors and peers, selected from the popula- ducted with all the attendant expense, forms, tion of the vicinity for that purpose, before he and delay of a regular trial. You array man can be brought to public trial. For one, I con- against man, create partizan combinations, pubfess I am astonished when I contemplate the lish the whole matter to the world to begin a wisdom and humanity shown by our forefathers trial upon, and subject the whole public to very in all their political acts. We are accustomed great inconvenience, and probably great exciteto look upon the unlimited power of the king ment, and all for the purpose of deciding whethwith fear, for we have seen, in the earlier his- er or not there shall be a trial. Therefore, I tory of our own country, evidences of that pow- maintain that public convenience no less than er perverted for the oppression of the subject. the public good, is fully consulted by the examWe see that our fathers were taken beyond the inations before the Grand Jury, composed of seas to be tried by and among strangers, for im- such as our laws contemplate, being conducted aginary and ideal offenses committed against the in secret. It is not until after the complaint is crown of England. Our fathers saw and felt made, a Grand Jury empanneled, a full investiall these evils, and hence the great care and gation of the case had, and a bill of indictment caution we everywhere see displayed in their found, that the State can touch the person or acts for us. They did not provide, as the gen- property of the citizen. Then the prisoner tleman from Tippecanoe (Mr. Pettit) would throws himself upon the justice and mercy of have had them do, that a man should be charged the country, has his witnesses called and examwith a crime, publicly examined, indicted, and ined, and himself heard either personally or by the sentence of the law executed, all within the counsel, before a petit jury. But if a public space of half an hour. They did not provide examination is to be had, with counsel and witthat your Governor or judge, could charge a cit- nesses in the first place, why go any farther at izen with crime and put him upon his trial there- all?-why not, as I before asked, let acquittal for. No, sir, they did nothing of the kind. or conviction follow the decision of that public They even held the personal liberty of the citi- examination? zen sacred, unless twelve of his fellow citizens The gentleman from Laporte has well oband peers, upon their oaths, adjudged him worthy served that the origin and necessity for Grand of arrest and imprisonment. Nor did they stop Juries lies far back in the cradle of society; and there; they were afraid to put too much trust in I might admit all the frailties and imperfections the judge-he might be powerful, and disposed to exist in the Grand Jury system, charged upon to create a public sentiment against the accused; it by the gentleman from Tippecanoe, (Mr. they would not even trust the man who had Pettit,) and still be able to demonstrate its sumade an affidavit against his neighbor, to sit on periority to any other proposed by that gentlethe jury. The great safe-guard, then, of the man. There never has been and there never rights of the citizen, is the Grand Jury. Its will be an institution devised by the wit of man, members are not appointed by the crown or the that will not be imperfect as its maker. Hu 190 man institutions must, of necessity, partake of it will so happen that every customer will have. human weakness and frailty. Not until hu- some ailment, real or imaginary, making it. inanity shall have reached the omnipotence and necessary that he should take a little brandy the omniscience of the Creator of men, will its for medicinal purposes and petit juries of the political or its moral institutions be free from same tastes are predisposed to admit such neimperfection and attendant inconveniences. It cessity. Now I am not advocating or comis not that I consider the institution of the mending these evasions of the law, but what I Grand Jury as a faultless one that I support it, wish to call attention of the Convention to is IMr. President, but because it is the best and the the fact that it is almost impossible to convict most perfect that the wisdom of centuries has a liquor seller even after he is indicted by the given us, and I beg leave to say that the wis- Grand Jury. This is known to all. But, gendom of the past is not yet eclipsed, in this re- tlemen say that the law is plainly violated and, gard at least, by the wisdom of the members of therefore, the Grand Jury is impotent to punish the Indiana Constitutional Convention. the violation. I answer, go back to the LegisWell, sir, another objection to this "inquisi- lature and see that no laws are passed in adtorial" and " ex parte" system is that " it is the vance of the moral sentiment of the people. Or handmaid of malice." I frankly admit the pos- go to the petit juries and correct their apsibility of the system sometimes being made petites and moral perceptions. The Legislasubservient to the will of cunning and malicious ture, not the system of Grand Juries, is at fault men-to some extent-never after full trial- in many instances, if fault exists. but then where is the substitute that is not ob- Mr. President, I do not desire to take up noxious to the charge of like defect? Certain- more of the time of the Convention on this ly it has yet to seethe light of this Hall. Does subject; but I must express an earnest desire a public examination repel every suspicion of that the fullest consideration will be given to this kind? Who is yourexamining magistrate! the subject, that we may not rashly abolish He may be at the head of a powerful party and what the wisdom of centuries has approved. I every gentleman within the sound of my voice believe that if public examinations are substiknows the temptation to err, which would be tuted for this system, there will be more licenpresented in the fact that the accused belonged tiousness, more impudence, and less fear of pubeither to his own or the opposite party. He may lic opinion in society than there now is. By lidesire to serve the one or injure the other. As I centiousness I mean that spirit of bullying,, have before said, so I now repeat, that the Grand through the combination of kindred spirits, in Jury system has its defects and inconvenien- the absence of this wholesome restraint. Many ces. But, although the evil is first recognized reputations would, in spite of the refusal of the in connection with the Grand Jury, the cause examining magistrate to commit for trial, be often lies far back of it. ruined by the mere fact of a public examination. Mr. President, let me call your attention to All the influence that wealth and social posione fruitful cause of some of those evils which tion could muster would be brought to bear upon a superficial observer is apt to charge upon this such examinations, for or against, and the ends system. Legislation has gone ahead of popular of justice be too often defeated. Let us preopinion. The criminal code embraces many serve the Grand Jury system uutil the people prohibitions which the people do not condemn. are convinced that a better has been discovered. And though this may not be true of the whole The very dread of an investigation before that State, it is true of certain portions of the State. tribunal, in the absence of the before-named For instance, the Legislature passes a stringent influences, makes the guilty tremble and often law against the sale and traffic in ardent spirits flee. It is in itself a powerful moral and popu-d and provides punishment for the offence of sell- lar restraint upon crime. ing. Now the moral sense of a portion of com- I would ask gentlemen if there is not somemunity is not up to this standard. Consequently, thing in the idea of such a tribunal, selected and the liquor seller, knowing that he has the sym- charged as it is, calling upon the most respectpathies of a large portion of the community able citizens in the State to appear before them with him, will traffic in an article which the to aid in the great work of maintaining public community wants. The laws of trade, when morals and private rights through the inquiries quickened by popular taste and passion, are no they may see fit to make in regard to the submore to be restricted by an enactment of the ject and interests which have been confined to Legislature than is the law of gravitation to their guardianship. If there is such a state of be suspended by a Governor's proclamation, insensibility in your neighborhood as to feel no If, in any community, there is an appetite for repugnance to exposures of crimes through such liquor, and the grocer keeps that stimulant, he a tribunal, your clergymen and your Sunday will have customers. If the Legislature for- school teachers, missionaries and bible societies, bids the sale some means will be found to evade have not done their duty, or have been met with. the language of the statute. It may be that the fatal counteracting influences; above all, your vender will give away the liquor and charge a mothers and female friends, to whose efforts a dime for a sight of the glass containing it. Or Grand Jury is auxiliary, have been derelict in. 191 their duty if your people applaud or censure. ing that an individual might be made a markThe gentleman himself may not be a worker for persecution by the prosecuting attorney, in the great cause of virtue and of holding up let the State of Indiana, through its representvice and crime in their true aspect-if he is not atives, attempt to seek out such a victim, and to he ought to be-and all of us ought to be en- put its sacrilegious hands upon an innocent man,. gaged in it more than we are. This would give and let the people suspect the fact, and you will a virtuous public sentiment the form of penal soon see the American spirit in a restive Grand enactment and be a protection to property and Jury, and the machinations of the wicked rereputation. Think for a moment of the care buked. Inform the people of the fact that a with which a man's life and liberty is guarded man is about to be victimized to the prejudices in society. You cannot arrest him on your own or malice of some one engaged in the prosecuopinion or feelings and have him taken into tion, and they will bear him off triumphantly in custody. You must yourself be responsible for spite of all that may be brought against him by the correctness of the accusation, and the charge false witnesses. The Grand Juries are responsmust be of a character that involves criminal ible only to public sentiment, and by that sentipunishment and be made upon oath. Even ment they will be arraigned for misdemeanor. this is not all. The liberty of the citizen is If they permit the guilty to go free, or to ar — still too sacred to be lightly endangered, and if raign the innocent upon insufficient evidence; the accused can give security for his appearance if they indict the innocent through bad motives to answer at the required time he can have his or influence, they will render themselves odious liberty in all cases below capital crimes. Letme to the community. And there is at present say in regard to this matter, that I maintain this great liability to their subjecting themselves to philosophy in regard to crimes, so that I do not the indignation of the people, while subjects of believe much in hunting down or bolstering up indictment are so multifarious as they are in our men, because I am satisfied that the guilty can code. I do not pretend to say that the Grand easily be brought to justice through the ordeal Jury system is perfect; I do not mean to say of public opinion. There is a divinity in truth that all the subjects that are now subjects of inand virtue that speaks for itself, and there is the quiry before the Grand Jury ought to be indictmark of Cain upon crime that all the world can able; but where a man's life or liberty is at read-the man who is innocent of crime will stake, I would intrust it in their charge more show that innocence outwardly. Truth and freely than in any other body I can think of. I virtue, infixed in the mind, shines forth in the stand upon this as the life-guard, and never will countenance-in the whole exterior of theman. I consent that any of those I hold dear, and Guilt, crime, and falsehood wear like iron into with whom my destiny is interwoven, shall be the very soul, causing ruin and desolation of subjected to criminal prosecution through any feeling to set enthroned. Cain of old was not other tribunal. For your horse-racing, gambling,. the only man who bore about him the mark of drinking, and other common evils, the justices evil-there are Cains of modern times, whose will answer; they can try and punish such ofthoughts of mischief, either done or contemplat- fenses. ed, so long occupying the mind, look out and My private opinion is, sir, that, should you warn the sagacious of virtuous mould of the abolish this system and cease to make crime and' presence of a devotee at the shrine of false- its causes a subject of inquiry before the Grand hood and vice. Crime, falsehood, and brutality, Jury, that crime will multiply and be perpetrated ever shun the paths of wisdom, truth, and be- with perfect impunity. Our penal laws will be nevolence-may effect to adore and practice, a dead letter; crime and its partizans will be but the armour will not fit the statue, the garb too strong for punishment before such tribunals. looks not as if made for the wearer, and the The ways of the sinner are loved best. The brand becomes visible. mass of the people do not come up to the moralBut, says the gentleman from Tippecanoe, ity of the penal code, or, at least, if there is a the prosecuting attorney can influence the small portion who are in favor of order and virGrand Jury as he pleases; he can cause them to tue there, that portion do not like to subject bring in or drop an indictment. The gentle- themselves to the denunciations of able and danman further said, that he had never had but one gerous men, who know how to raise up the Grand Jury who refused to do his bidding. His public voice against them. They do not like to charge is therefore general. Now, sir, I know be made the victims of the wrath of cock-pit nothing of the character of the men composing and grocery bullies, and their voices are hushed. the Grand Juries with which he has had to deal, It requires, therefore, the aid of a Grand Jury, but such is not the course pursued by the Grand composed of the most respectable men of the Juries of old Wayne. The men who form them community, and sustained by the confidence of there have too much respect for themselves as the order-loving portion of community, to overAmerican citizens, as men, to bow to the will of awe the more degraded and reckless portion of any one of their fellow men, and give themselves the community. A man under the imposing to the furtherance of the designs of malice or circumstances that are connected with the conthe attacks of private hatred. And, sir, allow- vening of sixteen of the most intelligent men of 192.the community, to sit in judgment upon crime, is Grand Jury is a tribunal known to the courts of less likely to commit perjury than before a law and to every one; all are acquainted with -smaller and less august body. Vice confronted its functions and the subjects of its inquiry, and with virtue will show itself. Old Nick cannot for what it meets. The inquiry in regard to insustain his men to the last. If:an innocent dividual misdemeanors is alone secret, and that man is arraigned no power on earth can make precaution is for the public convenience as well him quail; the stronger the persecution the as for the security of individuals. For if the more determined is he in the maintenance of innocence of the accused is made clear, he goes hisinnocence; but the guilty quail when brought forth to the world with a name more honorable before it. The elevated character of the Grand than before-he has passed through the fire and Jury-their manner of organization and man- came forth purified. Sir, I love and venerate ner of inquiry is a great preventative to crime, this old institution. I do not love it for its anand a part of their power, a consciousness of tiquity, but for its wisdom and humanity-for their uprightness and intention to administer the good it has done and is still capable of dostrict justice, has a weighty influence on the ing-because it protects and sustains the minds of the people. These Grand Juries are a nobler rights of every member of society, at part of the machinery of government, that cannot the same time ever maintaining those rights that be dispensed with. The welfare of society and society has voluntarily bestowed on the governthe protection of the citizen depends on their ment for the good of society. Let these rights perpetuation and public esteem. Their virtue be violated-let the arm of law that protects and intelligence give weight to their adminis- be displaced or enervated, and society will fall tration of justice. into, state of anarchy, and the wicked will A reverence for the moral and upright man reign. Sir, this, as I have said before, is an old is to be found in the mind of the most vicious- institution, and whatever has been handed down it is taught from the pulpit, in the Sunday by our ancestors that has shown its capacity to school, andinthedailyassociationsoflife. Why, administer to the maintenance of a just and sir, let me put forth a sentiment here, which, wise equipoise in the progress of society, and whatever may be thought of the power and in- the support of law and order, I am not disposed fluence of these things by those who favor a to lightly cast aside. I cannot consent to the loose code of morality, is, nevertheless, a prac- proposed substitute for this system-I am gettical truth, and that is, that one prayer meeting ting too old. Twenty years ago I could have in a small town or village, well attended, is a met even my friend from Tippecanoe in argugreater protection to the rights and persons of ment with tongue and fists before a justice of the inhabitants of that town or village, than a the peace. But the strength of my arm is now regiment of soldiers. The moral and virtuous waning, and I keep no brace of bullies to do feelings of the heart from which spring the prin- the work I hiss them on to. No longer can I ciples of justice and honesty, are kept alive and with ready brain and easy conscience stand up fostered by such meetings; and though at first as an advocate of the accused when I know he of but little power, soon spread from heart to is guilty. My time has passed for that, and it heart and operate on the whole community. remains for others to come forth and take part Vice conceals its hideous face from the pure who have not such hindrances.,Ihave not, sir, and searching gaze of such, and seeks its dens in these remarks attempted to defend this old and hovels, to riot in. It is stealthy and coward- institution against the accusations brought ly, and requires the powers and vigilance of a against it. It may have been perverted in the Grand Jury to unkennel and unmask it. hands of monarchs, and in the hands of Lord Sir, there is nothing tyranical in the inquisi- Jeffries of England it did cause innocent blood torial functions exercised by this ex-parte tribu- to run-but in the hands of American republinal. It is necessary to the unmasking and cans it stands a tower of strength to shield the punishment of the guilty and the triumph of oppressed and guard the rights of our citizens. the innocent. It is far better to appear before There is no power to awe it, and gold or patsuch a body than before some justice of the ronage cannot corrupt it. It must ever remain peace or other functionary, who may take upon a true type of the virtue, intelligence, law-lovhimself the rectification of public morals, and ing sentiment of the meass of the people from who may have the code of his party or parti- which it is extracted. zans to sustain. If a man has a good character Mr. STEELE remarked, that his friend from he is more likely before a jury of sixteen up- Wayne (Mr. Rariden) and himself in 1833-4 right men to receive all the benefit and protec- used to work in the same harness. They were tion that character can afford him. And there old associates. He thought the whole point of is nothing disreputable in the inquest; it is a the debate here lay in the fact whether they matter for the convenience of society alone, should have a double or single span of jurors; and as such should be conducted on the highest the double span as it was well known putting principles of equity and justice. These in- the State to double expense. quests are objected to because of their secrecy. He desired to refer the Convention at the outNow, sir, I deny that they are secret. The set to the sixth article of the amendments of 193 the Constitution of the U. S., proposed by Con- think it would be well enough-at least it gress and approved by a majority of three fourths would not be very much out of place-to ask, of the Representatives of all the States in the at this stage of the debate, what it is that genUnion, as upon that article he intended to pre- tlemen are talking about t [A laugh.] dicate his remarks. It was as follows: "In all The subject has, I confess, been calmly concriminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy ducted, and argued with a commendable zeal; the right to a speedy and public trial by an im- but, sir, it does seem to me that gentlemen partial jury of the State and district wherein have first made a man of straw and then pelted the crime shall have been committed, which him most unnecessarily. I call the attention district shall have been previously ascertained of the Convention to the fact, that there is not by law, and to be informed of the nature and a word in the Constitution of Indiana about cause of the accusation; to be confronted with Grand Juries. Why, then, talk about abolishthe witnesses against him; to have compulsory ing the system? I maintain, and I believe that process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, many will agree with me, that the proposition and to have the assistance of counsel for his now before us, is a proper and legitimate subdefence." ject for legislative consideration, and for legisThis, he said, was the climax of the right of lative consideration alone. And if so, why not a trial by jury, and fully supplied all the jury leave it there, and let them dispose of the matnecessary to insure complete justice to the State ter as the people may demand at their hands. and to the party accused. Grand Juries were There is not the slightest danger that the Grand selected by the county board, and their course Jury system will live in Indiana one year after dictated by the prosecutor, and yet gentlemen the people of Indiana have expressed their prespoke of the Grand Jury with all its secrets, ference for some substitute, whether a system and one man power as truly republican. The of public examinations or otherwise. prosecutor in many instances, had only to point The twelfth section of the first article of our out the object of his vengence and direct the State Constitution says, that no person arrest~course for the jury to pursue. He had it in his ed, or confined in jail, shall be treated with unpower to delay or defeat justice, and increase necessary rigor, or be put to answer any crimi-the expenditure of our courts. nal charge, but by presentment, indictment or Mr. S. said, that lie would in this connection, impeachment. suggest another reform which he would corn- Now, does it follow that an indictment, premend to the attention of gentleman. By the sentment or charge, can only be found by a laws of the State there were sessions of courts Grand Jury? Were Grand Juries abolished of record but twice a year in each county. This to-day, would society be impotent to secure,produced a great inconvenience, and oftentimes the indictment of a known horse-thief to-mor-:a great expense to the people, because there row. Not at all, Mr. President. Five or six could be a general jail delivery but once in six justices of the peace, sitting together and takmonths. This was an evil considered with re- ing testimony for that purpose, would be entireference to several results. Sometimes the in- ly competent to present a charge in due legal nocent lay too long in prison awaiting a trial. form. You can call it an indictment, a preThe evil effects of this would be readily recog- sentment, or an impeachment, just as you nised by all. If the prisoner had a family they please, butthe indicted person will certainly be must suffer in his absence, and whether he had tried, as promptly and solemnly as though upon or not it was against the spirit of our laws to an indictment found by a Grand Jury. And deprive any citizen of his liberty one hour the question I desire to ask of members is, why longer than the good of society at large abso- should we, in this Convention, take it upon:lately demanded. On theotherhand, criminals ourselves to debar the Legislature from attendwere kept at the expense of the county, and ing to this matter? The House of Represenkept in idleness for months when they should tatives comes up here fresh from the people be working for the State at Jeffersonville. For every year, or every two years, if this Conventhese reasons he wished to see a general jail tion decides on biennial sessions. The memedelivery in each county once in three months. bers of the Legislature are, at each session, inHe knew this was a degression from the sub- timately acquainted with the opinions and deject in debate, but as the Convention was dis- sires of the people from the midst of whom cussing and proposing reforms he thought he they have just been sent up to the Capitol, betwould, while on his feet, bring forward this. bause the people believed that they would repAlthough he was not in the habit of speak- resent those opinions and desires, and will not nlg often himself he desired that the fullest a Legislature, thus constituted, be a safer and latitude might be given to debate, and that the a fitter place for the discussion and disposition Convention would not adjourn from day to day of a proposition like the one now before the until all who desired to do so, had taken a part Convention, than this Convention? in the debate. By examining the constitutions of some sevMr. KELSO. I assure the Convention that en or eight States whose constitutions are of,I have!no disposition to make a speech, but I the latest date, you will find that but three of 13 194 them say anything at all on the subject of shall be abolished or not, I am opposed to itsGrand Juries. Some of the constitutions sim- abolition, and in favor of retaining it. At the ply prescribe that a citizen under arrest shall same time, I frankly admit with the gentleman, not be put to answer any criminal charge until from Tippecanoe, that there can be no sort of the charge is presented in a plain, fair, and legal doubt as to the evils of the system as he premanner; that would'certainly amount to an sented them. But I have one rudder by whicht indictment. And I ask what difference does I shall guide myself in relation to all questions it make from what source or tribunal it comes, of constitutional reform, and that is, that I am. so that it be a good and a sufficient indictment? opposed to all reforms, unless the grounds for Then, sir, it seems to me that we are taking them are manifest and apparent. So long as; upon ourselves too much; more, indeed, than the existing system of things can be retained, the people of Indiana require of us to take upon I am in favor of them. If they have evils, let our shoulders when they elected us to come up them be remedied, if they are susceptible of here and form the organic law of the State. amendment. We should not tie up the hands of the Legisla- Now, what are the evils complained of? ture, but leave it to retain or abolish the insti- There is but one on which much stress is laid, tution of the Grand Jury just as the indications and that is the secret and ex parte character of and necessities of the times may require. No- this tribunal. That is the only ground-the thing but the statute laws of Indiana require only argument that can be brought forward. I that before a person can be put to answer any feel and frankly admit that it exists. Now, if criminal charge he must first be indicted by a there is to be any change at all in the Grand: Grand Jury; and it is notorious that these Jury system, my proposition is that a Grand statutes are continually changing, and mostly Jury shall not investigate any matter, except for the worse. the punishment be of a capital character, or at. We have gone on for thirty-four years under least imprisonment in the penitentiary. The the old system, and this is the first time I ever lesser offenses, I think, may with great proprieheard of a constitutional provision for the abo- ty be submitted to a police court, or a police lition of Grand Juries, except just previous to magistrate; I care little which. As to the propothe election. While my colleague was can- sition to abolish Grand Juries, I am opposed to vassing the county, the question was for the it in the abstract, for two reasons: In the first first time presented to him, and he was asked place, I think that every part of our old Constiwhether or not he would, if elected to the Con- tution-and especially those parts which relate vention, vote for a proposition to abolish the to the punishment of criminals-should be reGrand Jury system 1 The question being a tained if possible. If there are evils existingnew one, he replied that the subject had been in it, amend them; and in the next place, if sprung upon him, and that it was done too sud- there were no other reasons for retaining all denly to allow him to give an opinion upon it. the provisions of that Constitution than those In many places in the State the subject has not! which have been urged for abolishing some of been heard of-in others perhaps it has been them, those reasons would be sufficient to inslightly discussed. duce me to retain them. In the present day,, I understand the question now pending be- when we hear of nothing but proposed changes, fore the Convention, to be upon the amendment I thik its the proper tme forthe truly conto make the resolution of the gentleman from servative party to stand still. This is the proper to make the resolution of the gentleman from i time for every man who is anxious to retain the Tippecanoe (Mr. Pettit) a matter of inquiry tmer man whos anxous to reta the as to the expediency of the change proposed. liberties of the country to take a conservative It seems to me that no change is necessary, part. That consideration would be sufficient but 1 think that the amendment is a proper one, to induce me to go against abolishing the Grand and that it should be referred to the committee Jury system. Now, the grounds in relation to as a subject ot inquiry this main proposition have been eloquently set In... opinion, i i b forth by many gentlemen, and particularly by In my opinion, it is better that ththat the whole gentleman from Cass. I could not, were I subject should be left for the action ot future ever so willing to do so, give so eloquent and Legislatures. j forcible a statement of the evils which would Mr. HOWE. It is not my intention to de- arise from abolishing this system as he has bate this question. I have neither the power given. The same reasons that existed for reto interest the Convention on this subject, nor taining the system in England a hundred and would my inclination lead me to do so if I had. sixty years ago, would be equally good reasons If this were a young men's debating society, for retaining it now. If it was a good system and not a legislative Convention, I might per- as between the subject and the crown, it is now haps, choose to enter into the discussion. I equally important as between the American think, however, that all we want to get at is citizen and the mob. There is, I am sorry to the general heads or topics growing out of this say, a growing disposition to take from the arquestion. I must say, in brief, if the main bitrament of the law those questions which question is, whether the Grand Jury system properly belong to it. If there is to be any 195 change in the Grand Jury system, I would pro- hand, can it with truth be said that a system pose a change something like the following: which calls upon any set of men to set in se" Public examinations shall be substituted for cret conclave upon the rights of others, affords indictments or presentments by a Grand Jury any protection to the citizen' It seems to me that in all offenses, the punishment whereof shall it cannot. I holditright enough that weshould not be death or imprisonment in the peniten- look to the experience of the past to guide us tiary: and in all cases a Grand Jury may send upon this as all other subjects; but it seems to for and examine the witnesses for the accused, me that if we approach a little nearer to this as well as for the State." subject, and come down to the institution of There may be gentlemen who agree with Grand Juries as we find it here to-day existing me, although I do not know that there are. among us, and examine its practical operation, However, these two reasons which I have as applying to our own people, we shall find stated would weigh sufficiently with me as to that many of the reasons advanced in favor of the main question, whether the Grand Jury the institution as applicable to Great Britain, system should be abolished. If it should be de- do not apply to it as it exists here. Gentlecided in the negative, then I am in favor of this men who have preceded me upon this subject, amendment for the reasons I have given. have quoted the opinions of Mr. Jefferson and Mr. MATHER. Mr. President, occupying other eminent men, showing the sacredness of the position which I do on this floor, as one of the right which every man has of being tried the youngest and least experienced members of by a jury of his countrymen. I admit, Mr. this Convention, it is with a great deal of diffi- President, that this is one of our dearest and dence on my part, that I rise to address you,and most sacred rights; but it occurs to me that a through you the members of this Convention, marked distinction ought to be drawn between on a subject of so great importance. I feel aGrand andpetitjury; and some who have spokthis diffidence more acutely from the fact that en upon this subject seem to think that the so many able men have preceded me in the dis- intention of the supporters of the resolution, is cussion which has already taken place. But, to do away with all right of trial by jury, and sir, I think I see a spirit manifested here by not only so, but also the right to the writ of both parties and on both sides of this question, habeas corpus. This, I apprehend, is a great to give a patient and candid hearing to all that mistake. What is the proposition l It is simmay be said pro and con. This I am glad to ply to do away with Grand Juries, and to adopt see; and I am exceedingly glad to see it upon public examinations in their stead. We have this subject, believing as I do that the resolution been told that the Grand Jury system is necesof the gentleman from Tippecanoe should be sary in order to enable the State to bring to adopted by the Convention,because I believe the punishment a person for breaches of the crimimore the proposition is considered the more it inal code. If this be so, then it seems to me will be likely to strike favorably upon the minds that it applies with more force to that class of of this body. A great deal has been said upon cases which we usually style misdemeanors, the subject of the origin of this institution. than to that class of cases which are called felHistory has been quoted to show that it is of onies. Now I have no doubt, Mr. President, ancient date, and that it has been used as a that a majority of the members of this Convensupporter of the crown of Great Britain on one tion will be in favor of some change or modifihand, and of the rights of the subject on the cation of the present system of prosecuting other-those who opposed the resolution taking criminal causes. But the difficulty seems to be one position, and those who are in favor of it as to what shall be the substitute. Some say taking the other; some insisting that the re- "give to justices of the peace, or some other tention of it in our system of jurisprudence is court, the right to enquire into and punish necessary for the purpose of enabling the State misdemeanors and minor offences." If Grand more thoroughly to prosecute persons who may Juries are at all needed, if they are useful for commit offenses against the law; others con- any purpose, in my judgment, it is in the examtending that it will operate as a security to the ination of charges of misdemeanor that their rights of the accused himself. Such is the va- greatest utility consists. We all know that in riety of views which have been taken by gen- cases of felonies there are usually plenty of tlemen in regard to this question. Allow that men to be found ready to prosecute. either of these principles is correct, as it applies Again, gentlemen who oppose this resoluto the Grand Jury system, as it has existed and tion do not seem to consider that the majority does now exist within the kingdom of Great of cases brought before Grand Juries have their Britain-can the same reasoning be applied to commencement in proceedings before justices its existence here'? Can it be said that if the of the peace. The gentleman from Wayne reGrand Jury system ever was necessary to the marked that it would be a great public evil to support of the crown of Great Britain, that the have courts of this kind always open, where State of Indiana, with a government whose examinations might be had-that it would be-. foundations exist in the very hearts of her peo- come a public evil from the fact that the courts pie, need any such support? And, on the other were always open. Why is not that now the 196 case Is not that the exact situation in which Jury should interpose in order that crime should we now find ourselves 1 Have not justices of be punished; and if anything can be shown of the peace authority, on complaint of a party, to its usefulness, it must be in those small offenses apprehend any man who has committed an of- regarding which there would be less disposition fence against the laws of our State? Is it not on the part of the neighbor, to make complaint. known that that is the practice everywhere? The whole question, it appears to me, narAnd yet we are told that if courts were substi- rows itself down to this: Is it necessary for tuted in the place of Grand Juries, they would the support and proper enforcement of the laws become a public evil, from the fact that they of our State that an inquisitorial body should were always open to hear examinations of this be established amongst us? that a body of men kind. Can this be true 1 If there be argument should be called together whose oath and duty and reason in this, I must confess that that ar- should impose upon them the necessity of gument and that reason have failed to convince bringing witnesses before them for the purpose my mind of the fact. I have had some little of ascertaining whether it ispossible that some oexperience in this matter of Grand Juries. It fenses might not have been committed within has been my fortune, whether good or ill I will the county since the last sitting of the court? not say, to have been prosecuting attorney for If there be any gentlemen upon this floor who two years, in the 9th judicial circuit of this State. believe that this is necessary, I say to them "you During that time there were some eighteen con- do right in opposing this proposition." But on victed and sent to the penitentiary from that the other hand, to those who believe with me, circuit, and, out of the whole of that number, that there is that sense of justice, that disposithere was not one case that had its commence- tion to see the laws properly executed, existing ment with a Grand Jury. Why, sir, before the in the breasts of the citizens of our State Grand Jury met, the defendant was either in which will insure the punishment of crime-to jail or under recognizance to appear and take such I say that we have no need of Grand Juhis trial. What had the Grand Jury to do with ries, because to my mind the only argument the matter. Simply to call the witnesses for that can be adduced in favor of retaining the the State before them and examine them again, system is the fact that by the secrecy of a touching a matter which had already been ex- Grand Jury you may be enabled to inquire into amined elsewhere-a mere matter of form more smaller offenses which perhaps might escape than practical utility-and to present an indict- conviction and punishment from a want of that ment to the court. After which the same wit- moral courage on the part of the person comnesses are again examined when the defendant plaining which always arises from a disposition is put upon his final trial. The question has to do equal and exact justice to all. frequently occurred to my mind, "in all these I will not, Mr. President, detain the Convencases, what was gained to the public or the de- tion longer upon this subject. I did not infendant by the interposition of the Grand Jury?" tend to have spoken upon this question this afIt seems to me that there was absolutely noth- ternoon. Indeed it was my intention to have ing. On the other hand, I do believe, with the passed it over in silence. What few remarks gentleman from Tippecanoe, that nineteen out I have made have been somewhat confused. I of every twenty cases of felony which originate have spoken without arrangement and without with a Grand Jury, will fail on trial before a notes. I have not attempted to follow at length traverse jury. It is true that now and then there the arguments of any gentleman who has premay be a case which will result in conviction, ceded me. I offer these remarks from a feelwhich has had its commencement in this way; ing of duty, and such as they are I am willing but such cases are only those where the defend- that they should go before the Convention and dant has fled from his state and gone beyond the the public for what they are worth. And in jurisdiction of the court; because, I do believe conclusion allow me to express the hope that as firmly as I do in my own existence, that there every member upon this floor will take the matis an inherent feeling of right and justice, and ter into his careful consideration. I do not a disposition to see the laws executed inherent wish that the subject should be acted upon hasin the organization of every good citizen of our tily. I am satisfied that it is a proposition of State, that will bring the man who has been that character that the more it is considered guilty of any flagrant violation of the laws to the more friends will be found for it; and as one immediate punishment. In other words, there of the advocates of the measure I would wish will be found persons in every community who a free and open discussion, and that time may will readily go before a justice of the peace and be given for reflection in order that the will or file an affidavit and cause a man, who has been the Convention may be fully matured. guilty of a flagrant crime, to be brought to pun- Mr. HENDRICKS saidishment. This has always been the case, and, Mr. PRESIDENT:-I had not designed saying unless we greatly fall from our present position anything upon the question now under discusas a people, it will be the case in time to come. sion, and will not now occupy the time of the I say, therefore, that in felonies there is no ne- Convention, further than to call the attention cessity that the inquisitorial character of a Grand of gentlemen to the proposition, upon which we 197 will be first called to vote. I allude, sir, to the cannot be conclusive. Very different and amendment proposed by the gentleman from! weighty reasons require the continuance of the Dearborn (Mr. Holman.) Up tothis time the dis- system in England, which can have no force cussion has been confined to the resolution of- under our political institutions. With us the ferred by the gentleman from Tippecanoe, (Mr. judiciary is almost entirely beyond the influence Pettit.) That resolution proposes the aboli- of the Executive-the judges, the court offition of the Grand Jury system. The amend- cers and Attorney for the State, receiving and ment, offered by the gentleman from Dearborn, holding their offices almost independently of the upon which I desire to speak, proposes the re- Executive. With us, the citizen cannot be rnoval of the constitutional restrictions from the reached, or his rights impaired by the Executive, Legislature, in reference to Grand Juries-to through the judiciary. place them within legislative control, to be But, sir, in England it is very different. The abolished if that be found practicable and ex- judges hold their position at the pleasure of the pedient, or to be remodeled, reduced in num- crown, and the attorney general is but the bers, and limited in jurisdiction, as experience mouth-piece of the executive, and dependent may require. If I entertained the views of the upon court favor for his position. In such a gentleman from Switzerland, (Mr. Kelso,) I system, the Grand Jury, composed of the genwould not support the amendment, or advocate tlemen of the county, who are beyond the powany change of the Constitution upon this ques- er or the corruption of the court, upon whose tion. That gentlemen assumes the position charge alone the citizen is compelled to answer that there is, in our present Constitution, no the King, is a safeguard to the liberties of the provision, restraining the Legislature from people-a bulwark of liberty standing between changing the Grand Jury system, or providing the throne and the citizen. Were I a subject for the finding of indictments or presentments, of the British crown, sir, I would fight for the by another organ of society, than a Grand Jury. Grand Jury-I would fight for it as it is-with The language used in the twelfth section of its secret sessions-its door closed against exthe first article of the Constitution, " present- ecutive influence. ment " and " indictment," is, sir, of a technical Reference has been made to the assizes held meaning; and to ascertain this technical mean- by Jeffreys, and the corruptions perpetrated by ing, our courts would go to the common'that judge are used as an argument against law, and would hold, without doubt, sir, that Grand Juries. But, sir, I would ask gentlemen these terms as used in this section of the Con- what would have been the condition of the peostitution, mean a charge, of a criminal nature, pie of the western part of England, had there preferred by a Grand Jury-such a Grand Jury then been no Grand Juries-no constitutional as was provided for by the Common Law. So bulwark between them and the throne 3 Petit long, therefore, as the words, "presentment, juries were brow-beaten and insulted, and forced and indictment" are retained, in their present by that minion of the crown, to find verdicts connection in the Constitution, we must have against their own convictions. The law and Grand Juries, if we would have men put "to right were trampledunder foot. The vengeance answer any criminal charge." of the court was to be visited upon the rebels I hope, Mr. President, that the amendment who had followed Monmouth, cost what of law instead of the original resolution will be adopt- and right it might. But, sir, I ask how much ed. The facts and arguments which have been worse would have been the condition of the urged against the Grand Jury system are enti- people if the king's attorney could have put tied to great weight and consideration. I ac- them upon trial upon his information filed? knowledge their force, sir, and am, therefore, With such a king as James, such a judge as anxious for the adoption of the amendment pro- Jeffreys, and such an attorney for the crown as posed by the gentleman from Dearborn. James would select; with such power, where, But, sir, it is no difficult task to find faults I ask, would have been the liberties of the peoand defects in the most perfect workmanship of pie i man. All of our institutions are, perhaps, im- But, Mr. President, these reasons in favor of perfect. The Grand Jury system has many de- continuing the system with its present powers tects; defects, sir, that are the necessary con- and modes of proceeding, in England, do not sequence of its present organization and mode have weight with us, and should not influence of proceeding, its ex parte and inquisitorial ac- us to retain the system, if we can find a suitable tion. These are defects from which it should substitute. be freed, or it should cease to be an institution Complaints are made and fault is found with of our country. the Grand Jury system, because it produces so Gentlemen who advocate the Grand Jury sys-'many indictments, and so few convictions. I as it now is, and those who are in favor of its should think that complaints of this character unconditional abolition, found their arguments should be made against the law; for the matter upon its origin-its connection with, and posi- complained of results from the nature of our tion in, the judicial system of England-argu- institutions, and the principle, that it were betments drawn from this source, on either side, ter that guilty men should escape than that in 198 nocent men should be punished. There was amendment had'been discussed, as I think it one court referred to yesterday, by the gentle- deserves to be, I should not have said a word man fronr Wayne, (Mr. Newman,) in which upon the question. I know there is great conviction was sure to follow the information. dissatisfaction amongst the people with referThat court was the Star Chamber. I never ence to the Grand Jury system; and I am satheard or read of a single instance in that court, isfied that there should be some change effected where information was not followed by convic- -a change as to the number which shall contion. There the executive power had control, stitute a Grand Jury-a change in their mode not only over the officers, but over the court of doing business-a change limiting their juthat tried the criminal-an illustration, sir, of risdiction, and with respect to the secrecy and the importance of Grand Juries, in a govern- ex parte character of their proceedings; and ment with great executive powers. this should all be settled by the best judicial exThe question before us is, how shall we have perience in the State. But if this question charges, in the name of the State, brought should be settled here, for example, upon the against a citizen There must be some power suggestion that our attorneys for the State in the State to do this. If, as is proposed, we should present all the State charges, and the citabolish Grand Juries, then how are charges of izen be called upon to answer such presentment, crime to be preferred? Can we decide upon it is my opinion, that when this practice should any other mode than Grand Juries? Who will come into the courts, the people would be more make the attempt to point it out 3 Is there any dissatisfied than with the present system; and gentleman here who will say he has learning, where would be the power to change again? judgment, and experience enough to designate It is my opinion, that, should we settle this a plan which will answer for time to come, question here, upon any plan, it would prove so which shall require neither amendment nor al- defective, that, in less than ten years, there teration? would be another Convention called to amend I am in favor of the proposition of the gen- the Constitution, upon this account alone. I tleman from Dearborn (Mr. Holman) because, believe the people desire some change or modiif you place this matter in the hands of our fication in this matter, as I have before said; legislators, and if they see proper to abolish the and I desire to give it wholly into the hands of system, they can do so, and establish in its stead their Legislature. I desire to take this course some proper tribunal, before which charges may particularly, in order that when the amended be preferred by the State against the citizen, in Constitution shall be submitted, there may be a manner more satisfactory, perhaps, than could no objections to it in the minds of the people be devised here. The gentleman from Tippe- on account of any modification in the Grand canoe (Mr. Pettit) proposes that justices of the Jury system, so that when this instrument shall peace shall have power to use the name of the go from our hands, it may be, in fact, what it State in criminal prosecutions against the citi- will be in theory, the expressed will of the zen. The gentleman from Hendricks (Mr. people. Nave) proposes that the prosecuting attorney Mr. LOCKHART now obtained the floor, shall have power to file such information in be- and upon his motion, half of the State, proceeding as in the Star The Convention adjourned until to-morrow Chamber. The gentleman from Laporte (Mr. morning, 9'clock. Niles) proposes, instead of Grand Juries, that four or five justices of the county shall have power to present charges, to which the citizen THURSDAY, OCT. 24 1850. shall answer. These three gentlemen are learned and experienced in the law, and they all The Convention met, pursuant to adjournoppose Grand Juries; but they can agree among ment, and was opened with prayer by the Rev. themselves upon no substitute. I refer to this Mr. CRESSY. matter merely to illustrate the fact, that we can- The journal was read and approved. not in this Convention agree upon any substi- On motion, the consideration of the special tute. I was pleased, sir, with the suggestions order was postponed one hour. of the gentleman from Laporte. I think some Mr. PEPPER of Ohio rose and said, that he such plan can be adopted which will secure the held in his hand a petition, signed by two hunliberty of the citizen, and respect the rights of dred citizens of the county of Ohio, praying for the State. But what substitute can be adopted the abolition of the Grand Jury system. Among that will secure the certain punishment of the the names he observed those of two associate guilty, and render the innocent safe in the en- judges and many members of the last Grand Jury joyment of their rights, can only be ascertained that sat in that county, and also the names of by experience. the most respectable inhabitants in every porThis is about all I desire to say upon the tion of the county, all belonging to the differquestion. I wished merely to call the attention ent political parties. His colleague had stated of the Convention to the amendment proposed truly, on yesterday, that the subject of abolishby the gentleman from Dearborn. If that ing the Grand Jury system had not been dis 199 cussed until the very last day of the canvass in to some weight; but,for my part, I do not know their county. On that day he (Mr. P.) was why gentlemen of this body cannot sit on comcalled upon to express his opinions in regard to mittees at night, as always do gentlemen of the it, but he remarked to the audience that he Legislature. But, if the Convention do decide should refrain from giving any opinion in re- to hold but one session per day, I hope that that gard to it then, at the same time suggesting session will be in the morning, and not in the that it would be very proper to present a peti- afternoon. tion to the Convention when it met, embody- Mr. PETTIT said, he was decidedly in favor ing their views in reference to the subject. of morning sessions. He thqught that a larger He was glad to see that his suggestion had amount of business would be transacted in the been carried out. morning, and sessions thus held, as had already The petition was ordered to lie on the table. been remarked, would enable the Stenographer to prepare his report of their proceedings on DAILY SESSIONS. one morning, so that they would be published Mr. BORDEN, on leave, offered a resolution in the papers of the succeeding morning. providing that after Monday next this Conven- Mr. DOBSON stated, that he was opposed tion will not hold an afternoon session until to the resolution. He was of opinion that the otherwise ordered. He said he hoped that the Convention should hold two sessions per dayresolution would be adopted, in order that the a morning and afternoon session-and that the various committees might have an opportunity committees should meet in the old-fashioned afforded them to meet and make out their re-Indiana way, in the evening. He hoped the ports. resolution would be rejected. Mr. SMITH of Ripley said, that he should Mr. KELSO moved to lay the resolution upon prefer afternoon sessions. He thought that the table the committees would be more fully represent- ed, and perform a larger amount of business in The question being put oi the motion of the morning than in the afternoon. The Con- the gentleman from Switzerland, it was ot vention, after sitting in the afternoon, if a agreedto lengthy discussion should arise, might hold Mr. OWEN remarked, that he had some exevening sessions, and gentlemen who desired to perience as chairman of one of the committees, make speeches would have a better opportuni- and he was satisfied that, unless some such resty afforded them for that purpose. olution as the one under consideration was Mr. COLFAX observed, that he differed in adopted, the committees would be greatly deopinion from the gentleman from Ripley. He layed in preparing their reports, and the busiwas in favor of morning sessions, because those ness of the Convention would thus be very sessions were always the longest, and therefore much retarded. He did not concur in the they could do more business than they could opinion of the gentleman from Owen, (Mr. if they were to meet in the afternoon. There Dobson,) that the committees should meet in was another reason why they should have mor- the evening; he had had some experience on. ning sessions, and that was, it would give the that point, and he felt bound to say that he had Stenographer time to write out the report of never seen any good resulting from night sestheir proceedings in time for the daily paper, -sions of committees. It would be almost imthus having the report of their proceedings on possible to have the membbrs of the committees one day in the paper of the succeeding day. all present in the evening, as there were genIf they should hold afternoon sessions the Ste- erally so many engagements atthatperiod of the nographer would not be able to prepare his re- day to occupy their attention; besides, after parport in time for the paper of the succeeding ticipating in the labors of the Convention during day. I only speak now of my preference for the day, gentlemen would be unfitted for the morning over afternoon sessions, if but one is proper discharge of their duties in committees provided for, as appears to be understood and in the evening. He trusted the resolution determined, will be the case. But I must be would be adopted. permitted to state that this Convention should Mr. HALL said, he was desirous of having a sit two sessions per day, if they expect to finish resolution of this character adopted, in order their labors here within a reasonable time. that the different committees might have an There must necessarily be a great deal of debate opportunity afforded them of preparing their reon the various questions that will come under ports. The Convention had been in session consideration, and that debate must be heard in for eighteen days, and had not yet received a this Hall. If we hold but one session per day, report from any of the standing committees. just double the number of days will be con- In the Kentucky Convention, only nine days sumed for this debate, and thus delay the final after it assembled, two of the most important adjournment of the Convention. The argu- reports offered during the session were received ments of gentlemen thatsome extra time should from standing committees. He trusted that be given to committees for a few days to pre- no objection would be made to the adoption of pare business for our action, might be entitled the resolution. 200 The question being taken upon the adoption gests another plan. He suggests that the five of the resolution offered by the gentleman from oldest magistrates of the county be chosen to Allen, (Mr. Borden,) it was decided in the discharge the duties that now devolve upon affirmative. grand jurors, and that they shall hold open So the resolution was adopted. courts at stated periods for the purpose of hearSeveral petitions were then read and referred. ing criminal accusations, and if the evidence be sufficient, recognize or commit the defendant to answer at the circuit court, taking down the The hour for taking up the special order hav- evidence the same as proposed by the gentleing arrived, the Convention resumed the con- man from Tippecanoe, and file it in the clerk's sideration of the resolution of the gentleman office for the use of the prosecutiong attorney; from Tippecanoe, (Mr. Pettit,) proposing to but he does not appear to be satisfied that his abolish the Grand Jury system, and substitute plan will work, and if it does not I understand public examinations in its stead. him to be in favor of retaining the present Mr.LOCKHART. There is, sir, perhaps no Grand[Jury system. Indeed, after listening to question that has been or will be submitted to his interesting and able argument I came to the the consideration of this Convention, of more conclusion that he was in doubt himself what importance to the people of this State, than the would be the best system-and to reduce his arone now under consideration. The question gument to a syllogistic form it amounted to for decision is-shall the Grand Jury, an insti- this, that he was in favor of abolishing the tution which has prevailed for so long a series Grand Jury if a better system could be devised; of years in the country from which we have de- if not he was in favor of retaining it. rived so large a portion of our present laws Mr. NILES. I regret to interrupt the genand institutions, and which has been so long tleman, but I think he misapprehends my posiand so successfully in operation in this country tion. I am opposed, at all events, to retaining -be abolishedl This sir, is an important, a grave the Grand Jury system as an imperative provisquestion, and one which demands the serious ionof the new Constitution. Whether it will consideration of this deliberative body. be best to engraft any substitute upon the The gentleman from Tippecanoe, sir, has ta- Constitution, or to leave the whole matter for ken a bold stand in presenting as he has for the the Legislature, is a question about which I am consideration of the Convention a proposition, somewhat undecided and comparatively indifferwhich, if not entirely new is measurably so ent, and should any substitute be adopted, I here. He proposes to change essentially the would leave it optional with the Legislature, organic law of the State, and upon a point too after a reasonable time, to modify it, or even to which has not attracted the attention of Con- return to the present system. stitutional Conventions in other States of the Mr. LOCKHART. I am satisfied with the confederacy. He desires, sir, to abolish the gentleman's explanation. Grand Jury system and to substitute in its The gentleman from Tippecanoe says that stead public examinations before justices of the we do not keep up with the spirit of the age in peace. Instead of having bodies of men cho- maintaining the Grand Jury system; that it is sen by the constituted authorities of the State an attribute of kingly power, and that it retards to examine into all violations of the penal rather than advances the interests of society. statutes, he proposes public examinations be- I do not admit that Grand Juries were instituted fore magistrates. I say, sir, this is a bold prop- as auxiliaries to the crown, but assert that they osition. As was remarked by the gentleman were instituted to protect the citizen against from Switzerland, (Mr. Kelbo,) there are in malicious prosecutions.:Marion county ten townships and probably Allusion has been made to the court of the twenty-five justices of the peace. Should the Star Chamber, by the gentleman from Tippeproposition of the gentleman from Tippecanoe canoe, by way of illustrating the position he prevail, the duties that now devolve upon the maintained in regard to the abolition of the Grand Jury would be transferred to these twen- Grand Jury system. Now, sir, I would ask the ty-five justices ot the peace. You then have gentleman, whether, if his propositions prevails, twenty-five petty courts in this county whose we will not be brought back to that period in duty it would be publicly to inquire into all vio- English history, at which the court of the Star lations of the penal code, the evidence to be Chamber commenced its usurpations of power; taken down by the respective magistrates and whether, if we abolish the Grand Jury system handed over to the Clerk of the Circuit Court, and substitute the one he has prepared, it will by him to be transferred to the prosecuting at- not bring us back to the commencement of the torney and then, if in his judgment there should reign of Henry VII. Previous to that period be evidence enough to warrant a prosecution, Grand Juries were organized and used for the he is to make out a proper accusation and file purpose of presenting accucations against crimit. Thisis the plan, as I understand it, present- inals for prosecution. ed by the gentleman from Tippecanoe. The earliest history we have of that instituThe gentleman from Laporte (Mr. Niles) sug- tion is that it was first introduced among the 201 Saxons, but at what particular period it was Public examinations must inevitably tend to adopted is uncertain. Long before the court lessen the chances for a fair trial before a traof the Star Chamber came into power, and du- verse jury. Suppose the public mind becomes ring the reign of.Henry III, Grand Juries were inflamed in regard;to some particular criminal, in existence; and if my reading is correct, they how can he rely upon having a fair and imparwere instituted for the protection of the subject, tial jury when all the evidence for and against and not to enable the king to carry out his ty- him is known? But, preserve the secrecy of rannical purposes. It is true the Grand Jury the Grand Jury, let his cape be examined there, was virtually abolished by the enlarged jurisdic- keep the evidence from the public, and you intion assumed by the court of the Star Chamber, crease his chances for a fair and impartial trial. during the reign of Henry VII, to enable the How frequently is it now, that in counties where crown to carry on its malicious prosecutions. there have been certain violators of the penal Will not the magistrates' courts,with their pub- law, that the public mind becomes exasperated lic examinations, be Star Chamber courts in and inflamed against the accused, so much so miniature, substituting only the prosecuting that a great number of applications are made attorney for the king. for a change of venue; how much more freThe gentleman from Tippecanoe, did not, quent would these applications be if all examwhen speaking of English jurisprudence, allude inations were public. And, sir, three-fourths of to that period in English history commencing these applications are brought about by the pubwith the reign of Henry VII and terminating lic investigations which we must necessarily with that of Charles I, a period of a hundred have before committing magistrates and at coryears, during which the court of theStar Cham- oners' inquests. When any great crime has ber triumphed in the overthrow of the Grand been committed, the whole community flock in Jury system. He did not refer to the time to hear the trial, and the prisoner, knowing that when Henry and his successors took their seat fact-knowing that the public mind is prejudiced on the bench and became a component part of against him, from having heard the examination, the court, to carry out their own behests in vio- applies for a change of venue. The court canlation of law and the rights of the subject. not fail to see that there is some ground for the This system of administering the laws of Eng- apprehensions entertained by the prisoner, and, land, prevailed for more than a century, and if not compelled by an imperative mandate of where was the right of the citizen during that the law, would, from a sense of justice, feel time? This was the period so lightly passed bound to grant the prayer of the accused. The over by the gentleman from Tippecanoe. The prisoner is transferred for trial, to another juriswrongs the people of England experienced dition, where there are men whose minds have during that period, called so loudly for redress not been warped or prejudiced against himthat during the reign of Charles I, the govern- where there are men entirely ignorant of the ment was compelled to come back to the Grand transaction, who can be placed on the panel, Jury system. From that period to the present hear the evidence, and pronounce an impartial this system has been in use, both in England and just verdict. In my judgment, sir, nothing and America; every State in this confederacy can be clearer than that, if public examinations having incorporated it in their system of juris- are instituted, application on application will be prudence; and now in the middle of the nine- made for changes of venue, because of the difteenth century we are told that to retain it is ficulty in getting fair and impartial juries. I behind the spirit of the age. I do not believe it. would say here, sir, that I am not in favor of While the gentleman from Tippecanoe and having all offenses punished by indictment. I the gentleman from Laporte are both strenuous have long since arrived at the conclusion that in favor of the abolition of the Grand Jury sys- our legislation ought to be different on that subtem, they are equally anxious, they say, to afford ject, and that a large number of misdemeanors to the accused an impartial trialbyjury. How, now punishable by indictment, might be tried sir, I would inquire, if this resolution should be before justices of the peace, reserving, of course,. adopted, and the Grand Jury system abolished, the right of appeal. I think that in this particare you to increase the chances for fair and im- ular, the Grand Jury system may be modified, partial trials. There would exist the same objec- without infringing the rights of the citizen, but tlon to making public examinations before a I am utterly opposed to its entire abolition, consingle magistrate, as proposed by the gentleman sidering, as I do, that no substitute can be found. from Tippecanoe, or three, four, or five magis- And, sir, before I would vote to abolish the Grand trates, as proposed by the gentleman from La- Jury, and place it in the power of one man to porte, that there would be to public examinations hear the evidence, take it down as he underbefore Grand Juries. The gentlemen who ad- stands it, and then give the proscuting attorney vocate the abolition of the Grand Jury system, the power, from that evidence, to prepare an inadmit that public examinations before Grand dictment and bring a citizen to trial-I say, sir, Juries would never answer-my opinion is that before I could vote for such a proposition as this, they would answer as well in the one place as a radical change must be wrought in my mind. the other. I would, sir, with my present impressions, as soon 202 think of voting for the celebrated French dec- vention, as will not only guarantee the rights of laration that there was no Sabbath, and that citizens, but will at the same time secure to the death was an eternal sleep. I prefer rather to State her full rights, and enable us, under all vest that power in the hands of eighteen Grand circumstances, without unnecessary delay, to Jurors-men not versed in law, and fresh from punish those who violate our penal laws. Can the masses of the people. Keep your prosecu- we do this, sir, by abolishing the present Grand ting attorney out of the Grand Jury room, ex- Jury system, and substituting public examinacept when invited there as the legal adviser of tions before justices of the peace in its place? the jury, so that he may exert no undue influ- I think not. I am of opinion that no institution ence over them. Leave them to act free from or system can be devised so perfectly well dictation or any extraneous influence, and they adapted to secure the rights of citizens and of will invariably do right. During my brief career the State as that of the Grand Jury. I predict, at the bar I have prosecuted for the State, and sir, that if the principles contained in this resocan bear testimony to the high and honorable lution are adopted and embodied in the new Conbearing of the citizens who usually compose stitution, that at the expiration of five years Grand Juries. Let them receive the charge of there will be found a large majority of the peothe court, examine the statute law of the State, pie of this State in favor of coming back to the hear the evidence of the witnesses, and leave Grand Jury. It will be found that the expense them unfettered by the admonitions of the pros- of prosecuting before magistrates will far exceed ecuting attorney, and, my word for it, ninety- the expense of the Grand Jury system. The nine out of a hundred of their decisions will expense, however, is not what I look at. The prove correct. Malicious prosecutions, to be question is, is this institution an important elesure, may sometimes be preferred, but abolish ment in the perpetuity of our free institutions? the Grand Jury system and there will be ninety- If it is, it matters not what it costs. The quesnine malicious prosecutions preferred by the tion is not one of dollars and cents, but is it the prosecuting attorney and his petty magistrates, best system for effecting the purpose designed to one made by the Grand Jury. in its organization l The question more particularly under discus- Mr. FOSTER. I never rise to address an sion, sir, I suppose to be the substitute proposed audience, and more particularly a deliberative by the gentleman from Dearborn (Mr. Holman). body, without feeling a kind of timidity or trepHe proposes, in the first place, idation which I would willingly divest myself That the public will should not be restricted of, and such as many gentlemen present doubtby unnecessary limitation of the legislative less have oftentimes experienced. I am somepower. what in the situation of an old lady, who, upon Secondly, that the manner of preparing and one occasion, when she had the hysterics, apthe mode of prosecuting a criminal accusation, plied to me for medical advice. She undertook are matters purely legislative, and should be to describe her disease, and said that it was a left to the legislative department of govern- kind of enlargement in the chest: that it would ment. get up in her throat and produce a sense of sufThirdly, that the committee on criminal law focation, and finally remember, doctor, it is very be instructed to omit the words, "indictment," queer, and I do not know what you call it, but "presentment," or " impeachment," where the I call it the swallows. This, sir, is indeed a very same occur in sections 12 and 13 of article 1 distressing disease, and I am sorry to say it, but of the old Constitution. I greatly fear that some gentlemen on this floor Now, sir, I am not in favor of the last two have also got the swallows. [Laughter.] As propositions. I desire to retain the clause re- there are a goodly number of practitioners of lating to this subject in the new Constitution medicine here, I do not know but what it would substantially the same as it is in the Constitu- be desirable to raise a committee for the purtion of the United States, and propose to amend pose of providing some remedy that will cure his substitute by striking out all after his first this affection, and if such a committee should be proposition, and inserting the following: raised, I suggest, among other potions, whether " That the committee on matters pertaining a draught of the gentleman from Tippecanoe's to criminal law be instructed to report a section tea (referring to a glass of highly colored liquid to be inserted in the amended Constitution, pro- upon the gentleman's desk, when he spoke upon viding that no person shall be held to answer the Grand Jury system) might not have a very for a capital or otherwise infamous crime, un- salutary effect. less on presentment or indictment by a Grand I feel it to be an imperative duty, sir, to make Jury." a few remarks upon this subject, merely premisI repeat again, sir, that there is no question ing that it is one of which I have heard but litin which the people are more deeply interested tie, and examined very slightly until its presentthan in that of a fair and impartial administra- ation here last week. It is true I might have'tion of the crimnal law of the State. It is due availed myself of certain lucubrations of a memto our citizens and the State that such a system ber of this body, published in the Sentinel last of jurisprudence should be adopted by this Con- summer; but unfortunately I was then engaged 203 in the canvass, taking care of number one, and, mighty fortress on some high and elevated emitherefore, the remarks I shall offer will be nence, which has not only bid defiance to all thrown out merely from the spur of the occa- the assaults of its enemies, whether external or sion, and for the purpose of defining my position internal, but has bid defiance to old Time himbefore my constituents. self. I profess, sir, to be a conservative, and not Yes, sir, I admire-I reverence it for its anone of the progressionists of the age who appear tiquity. to run with a kind of railroad velocity after eve- But it is said that it has only been in existry ignis fatuus or will o' the wisp of the day. I ence in England and the United States. Why, wish to adhere to the institutions and landmarks of sir, a higher compliment than this could not be my fathers, for I believe if they were not better paid to the institution. These two countries, men than those composing this assembly, they as it is well known, are the most free and enwere at least as acod, and were influenced by lightened upon earth. less sinister and selfish considerations than those It has been compared, also, to the Inquisition which govern many of us at the present day. of Spain and Portugal, and to the court of the The sages of the Revolution, and those who Star Chamber. What comparison, I would seimmediately followed them, were patriots in the riously inquire of gentlemen, is there between purest and strictest sense of the word. I the Inquisition of Spain and the Grand Juries An objection is urged against the present of England and America? Let me give a Grand Jury system that it is nearly a thousand brief history of the course pursued by a years old. Now, sir, for one, I admire almost Grand Jury. The number of gentlemen genevery thing that is old. I love old books, and erally composing a Grand Jury is fifteen or sixold wine, and I was going to say old women, teen, who come to court at a prescribed time, too. Why, sir, I respect the maiden lady who, where a great number of people are in thehabit even after having weathered Cape Forty, is still of assembling tcgether. They are duly sworn to willing to embark on the treacherous ocean of the faithful discharge of their duty, and the judge matrimony, notwithstanding the shoals and of the circuit court gives them a charge; and this quicksands, the rocks and squalls, which she is very charge, on particular occasions, is calculiable to encounter on her voyage. I also love lated to diffuse more light in regard to law the ivy-mantled town, and the moss-covered among the jurors and the people than can be church, and I love the old relics of the Revolu- derived from any other source, excepting, of tion. When I see a man bending with the course, those who are in the profession. After weight of years, though he may be clothed in the judge has delivered his charge, the jury tattered garments and looked down upon in so- retire to their room and deliberate upon the ciety; and behold his white locks bleached with various subjects brought before them. Permit the frosts of many winters, and his physical me to say here, sir, that this is no Star Chanmframe fast crumbling to decay, and know that ber process. Although there may be sixteen he fought for his country in "the times that or eighteen men composing the jury, yet it takes tried men's souls," I involuntarily approach him twelve of them to find a true bill and indict an with respect, and treat him with a veneration individual for any kind of offense. If there only less than that which I pay to my Maker were only eleven in favor of the indictment and my God. they could not bring it in. This, of course, is Do you urge the antiquity of this system as a benefit to the accused. an objection to it 3 Why, sir, I consider that What is the course pursued by the Inquisition one of its highest recommendations. of Spain! An individual is arraigned before I am not a lawyer, Mr. President; I know that body without any knowledge of the charge nothing in relation to the common law, but have brought against him. He is made to be a wit-.some slight acquaintance with English history, ness against himself. He is tried and conand I must say that I have not read that history demned without any opportunity being afforded in the same manner that the gentleman from him of proving his innocence. Not so with the Tippecanoe, and others who concur in his views, Grand Jurv system. A man that is brought behave read it. So far from the Grand Jury sys- fore that body, charged with some violation of tem being established for the benefit of mon- the law, has the fullest opportunity afforded archy, I contend that it was established for the him to bring forward testimony that may prove benefit of the people. It is of Saxon origin. his innocence. If he does prove his innocence, andit originated some time after the Heptarchy his character will stand higher in the coimmuwas abolished, when England was united under nivt than it did before the charge was brought.one Saxon monarch, and anterior to the Norman against him. But how is it with the inquisiConquest. It has existed for more than a thous- tion? A familiar dressed in black robes conand years during the various dynasties of Brit- stitutes the judge and jury; and any individual ain; and, like the meteor flag of England, who may come under the displeasure of the inwhich has braved the " battle and the breeze," quisition is liable to incarceration in a dungeon during that long period, so this Grand Jury for life, unless it is decided that he shall be system appears to me, like some strong and made a victim to the Auto-da-Fe. I am aston 204 ished that gentlemen should compare the Inqui- AFTERNOON SESSION. sition with the Grand Jury, brought to this The consideration of the special order was country by the pilgrim fathers, when they first resumed. set their feet on the rock of Plymouth, on the Mr. HOVEY saidbleak shores of New England. Yes, sir, the Mr. PRESIDENT:'When I look around this same institution was carried to Virginia by the Convention and consider the learning, the talCavaliers, and adopted by the Huguenots, when ent, and the experience of those who are here they fled from the tyranny and oppression of assembled, and more particularly when I conLouis XIV of France, and settled on the sunny sider the very able manner in which the quesshores of Carolina. tion under debate has been discussed, I must Mr. President, when William the Norman confess that it is with unfeigned diffidence that conquered England, and the last Saxon mon- I have arisen to address you. Nor would I do arch was slain at the battle of Hastings, he and so now, did I not feel that the duty which I owe his immediate successor, William Rufus, en- to my constituents requires that I should not deavored, by the establishment of the feudal permit a vote to be taken on a question of such system, to destroy the Grand Jury system. For vital importance, without presenting to the a time they succeeded in their nefarious at- Convention what I believe to be the views of tempt; but the system was resuscitated again, those whom I have the honor to represent. and notwithstanding the coercive measures Were I to remain silent on a question of the pursued by the tyrannical and imbecile John, magnitude of that before the Convention, I and by many of his line who were war- should feel that I was recreant to the interests riors and statemen of great and deserved celeb- of those who sent me here, and would be derity, yet it stood its ground against all the serving the appellation of an "unfaithful sermachinations of the kings of the Norman race, vant." and also those of the Stuart line, which com- If a sentinel were stationed on the walls of menced with the first James, and terminated a besieged city, it would be his duty to oppose with his fanatical and tyrannical grandson, the any invading force. If that force be feeble, he second of the name. And ever since the abdi- should offer battle hand to hand, and if too cation of the last named monarch, and the as- strong for his individual efforts, he should at cension of William of Orange to the throne least do all in his power to repel the invasion. of England, the Grand Jury system has been Somewhat in the attitude of that sentinel do established upon a firm and stable basis. I stand on this floor-the State of Indiana the Ailusion has been made, sir, during this de- besieged city-the old Constitution the wall bate, to the trial and death of the Saviour of that surrounds her-and I, as one of the Conmankind. No analogy, in my humble opinion, stitutional delegates, a sentinel to guard and can be made of his trial and the course pur- protect that wall. Wherever I find it deficient sued at the present day. True, he was betrayed or weakened, it is my duty to strengthen or reby one of his followers; and when he was ar- build it, but I have no right to try experiments raigned before the High Priest, the multitude, upon it-I have no right to spring a mine beinstigated by the Pharisees and others, cried neath, nor test its strength by any powerful crucify him! crucify him! and he was led away engine of assault. Taking this to be my duty, to death. But this was according to the fore- I shall offer my feeble opposition to repel the knowledge and determinate counsel of God; assaults which have been made, with gigantic and the Saviour himself declares that they did force, against one of our most venerable and not know what they had done, when he prayed noble institutions. The Grand Jury system is to his Heavenly Father to forgive them. It without a parallel in the history of nations or was the act of an infuriated mob which con- of man. Kingdoms have been overthrown, demned the Saviour to the cross, and not the de- empires have mouldered into dust, but the liberate verdict of a jury of his countrymen. Grand Jury, amid all the changes of a thousand' I have no disposition to consume the time of years, has stook as firm and immovable as the the Convention further on this question. At pyramids of Egypt. Viewing it, sir, in this some subsequent period, when this subject shall light, I am opposed to laying rude hands upon have been reported on by the committee who it, and making hasty alterations. The main may have it in charge, I will probably trespass arguments made by those who wish to abolish further upon the attention of this Convention, this system is, that it has faults-that Grand and endeavor to convince the most skeptical of Juries have sometimes been corrupt-that they the impolicy of abandoning the present sys- have indicted those whom they should not have tem of Grand Juries, and substituting in their indicted, and left unpresented those whom it place an inquisition of justices of the peace- i was their duty to present. But if that arguaye, of a single magistrate, in lieu of twelve or ment is to prevail, and the system, on that acfifteen men equally as honest and well inform- count, to be abolished, to what will it lead ed as himself. Does not every gentleman here perceive that it On motion by Mr. HOVEY, will lead to a fallacious conclusion t Look at The Convention adjourned until 2 o'clock. your petit juries, and consider the frequent re 205 sults of their deliberations. Have they not fre- tion have been in England, in times past. quently, by their verdicts, robbed men of their These are not questions for us to consider, but property 3 Have they not stamped upon the we should inquire what has been its action and innocent the character of infamy t Have they history here. I care not whether it has subnot consigned to the gloomy walls of a prison, served its designs in other countries, if it has for life, those who were as guiltless as the babe answered the purpose with us. We know that unborn. Aye, and have they not caused the it was early ingrafted into our republican insti-.scaffold to reek with the blood of the innocent. tions, and that it has "grown with their growth, Look at the judges in the highest courts. There and strengthened with their strength," and if the ermine has been stained-bribes have been demolished, the whole superstructure must feel received, and they have allowed themselves to the shock. be made the willing tools of power. But, sir, What is a Grand Jury1 Of what is let us bring the comparison nearer home, and it composed Is it composed of lawyers come down to the proceedings had in this Hall and doctors, of clergymen, and justices of and the adjoining chamber a few years ago, and the peace? No; it is composed of the very what will we discover? That the chosen rep- brne and sinew of the county, of the farmer, resentatives of the people-those who ought to the mechanic, the merchant. Should it ever have guarded their interests with the most sa- be mv lot to be tried for an offence, I will pray cred care-involved the State in an unnecessa- God to deliver me from being tried by a jury of ry debt, (and that, too, without the actual con- lawyers, or justices of the peace. I want no;sent of the people,) which she will not be able man on a jury who has a smattering of the law, to pay for the next half century to come. but those who have not been much in contact What, then, is the Conclusion 1 Why, that with that icy element, which freezes all the petit juries, judges, parliaments, and legislative better feelings of the human heart, and deadens assemblies have abused their powers, and have the ear of mercy. faults; but I ask if that be a satisfactory reason It has been said, that the Grand Jury is a why they should all be abolished? Yet that is subservient tool of monarchy. Now, I contend the tendency of the argument which has been that it is one of the most democratic features in urged with so much eloquence by the gentle- the judiciary department. What is a pure demen who seem anxious for the abolition of the mocracy. It is a government where the peoGrand Jury system. There is not a gentleman pie "en masse," make, judge, and execute the laws. on this floor bold enough to say that he is wil- Now, I leave it to gentlemen, whether the Jing to abolish the petit jury, because it has Grand Jury, which is composed of the people, sometimes committed the errors I have named. and every term comes fresh from the people, is There is no human institution that is perfect; not more democratic than a judge or justice,.and, as has been well observed by the gentle- who is elected for two or three years 1 Supman from Wayne, (Mr. Rariden,) there never pose you place the power of examination in the will be one as long as the mind of man is hands of one justice of the peace, as the gentlefinite. man from Hendricks, (Mr. Nave) proposes. Sir, I would remind gentlemen in this Con- Would he not be considered as having exclusive vention, that it is an easy thing to tear down, privileges? And, would he not become more but a much more difficult one to build up. odious than the common informers of Great The architect who designed and superintended Britain? If, on the contrary, the indictment: the erection of this Hall, may have labored for is found by a Grand Jury, the indicted will be years in studying those principles which en- silent, because he would reflect that they were abled him to produce such a structure; and his fellow-citizens, without prejudice against yet a madman or a fool in a few short hours, him, and that they would not be likely to premight level it with the ground. Rome, with sent him without some good cause. her splendid villas, her magnificent palaces, There is another point of view, in which I and ~gorgeous temples-Romie, the great, the wish to contrast the Grand Juryman, with the powerful, the triumphant, built with the spoils examining justice. The justice of the peace.of a thousand, nations, and cemented with their is sworn once for all, to faithfully perform his blood, was left in one night by Alaric, with his duties, and that oath is to last him during the Goths and Vandals, a mass of blackened continuence of his term. But, the Grand Ju-.ruins. Ti's easy to tear down, but it is hard to ry-man is sworn for the single occasion, and his build up. oath will make him ponder on his every act. I will not attempt to go over all the argu- He is to present no one from malice or ill will, anents which have been urged, for with all due nor leave any one unpresented, through fear. deference to the gentlemen who have advanced favor, affection, reward, or the hope thereof, but,them, I think many of them can have but little he is to present all things truly, as they shall weight. Neither will I with others attempt to come to his knowledge. Now, I ask which of trace the Grand Jury system to its origin, or in- the two is most likely to remember his oath, quire, whether it has existed one or two thou- when the conduct of a person accused of crime sand years. I care not what its history and ac- is brought before them 1 206 Plain cases of crime have been put by gen- morals and characters-some gambling den, tlemen, who favor the resolution, and in such some " doggery," bidding all defiance to the they triumphantly ask, what is the use of law. Yea, he might even be induced to indict Grand Juries? If the cases were all plain that his own child to check his mad career. Away, were to be brought before such juries, I would then, as to this argument of malice. That that unhesitatingly admit they would be of but feeling in some cases may exist, I will not atlittle use. But cases are not all plain, and in a tempt to deny, but is certainly not the most difficult one what figure would a justice of the common with witnesses before the Grand Jury. peace cut, with at least the liberty of the pris- But, sir, where will you find the most malice, oner in his hands. Sir, would he be as likely the most perjury 1 In the small cases brought to act impartially as a Grand Jury? No gentle- before justices of the peace, and most commonly man here, at all conversant with law, or the under recognizances to keep the peace. practice of courts, can think so. But there is another consideration why this I have been very much pleased with many secrecy is valuable. Unfortunately in this of the arguments which have been elicited, country, as in every other, we have the high and during this debate. The gentleman from the low, the rich and the poor, the powerful and Wayne (Mr. Rariden) has thrown before the the weak. Now, sir, take a man possessing all Convention many valuable thoughts, and the the elements of popular favor-rich and influgentleman t rom Tippecanoe, (Mr. Pettit,) with ential-who has committed a crime, and let me his gigantic intellect, has brought forward many ask in all seriousness, if an ordinary justice reasons, which he doubtless thinks are sufficient would be as likely to deal fearlessly with him to sustain his resolution. But, whatever effect as a Grand Jury of the country? Reason anthey have had upon the minds of others, they swers, no. Again: would that poor man be have certainly failed to convince me. likely to inform openly against the influential One of the objections of the gentleman last character I have described? He might do it, named, is, that the proceedings are secret. sir, but if he should I contend that he would be Now, what does that amount to? Is not any an exception. And now, sir, I will say one member in this Convention aware, that by that word more in regard to the policy of the secrecy very reason criminals will be brought to justice of Grand Juries. It is to prevent innocent men much more surely? And why so? Simply, from being unnecessarily exposed. How many because if a person should go before a justice persons are charged with crime before that body of the peace to file an affidavit, there would be of which the world neither hears nor dreams, those generally standing round, who would because the testimonv is insufficient. But if spread the news, and the culprit being thus we had no secret examining court, the innocent warned, would have an opportunity to escape. would be frequently held up to the public gaze On the other hand, when an offence is inquired as though they were really guilty. into before a Grand Jury, and an indictment is It has been contended that justices of the found, a writ issues, and the criminal is in the peace can and will perform all the duties of the hands of the sheriff before he is aware that any Grand Jury. I have taken the trouble to look charge has been preferred against him. into the jurisdiction now possessed by those offiThe Grand Jury system has another advan- cers, and will read to the Convention the heads tage; it prevents heart-burnings and neighbor- of the same: hood quarrels. A man might wish to inform "Assault, ferrying without license, vending against his neighbor for some gross offence, if it obsene books, Sabbath breaking, tavern keepers, could be done so as not to produce ill feeling be- &c., selling liquors on Sunday, profane sweartween the offender and himself. To present ing, playing long bullets, &c." him before a justice of the peace would be al- Jurisdiction is given over the following by the most sure to cause that result, yet he could go acts of 1848: before the Grand Jury and cause the offender "Unlawful assembly, affray, assault and batto be brought to justice both secretly and safely. tery, assault and battery in parting combatants, Gentlemen may declaim against this as a mali- selling unwholesome provisions, public indecious and cowardly act, but I would remind them cency, extortion by ferrymen and bridge keepthat those who usually commit crimes are not ers,vending foreign merchandise without license, men of the mildest temperaments, and that there vending spirituous liquors without license, exis little bravery, or at least little wisdom, in an hibition of shows without license, selling or informer baring his breast to the midnight as- giving spirituous liquors to a minor under 18 sassin, or run the risk of having his property years of age or to an intoxicated person, tavern consumed by fire by an enraged incendiary. keeper taking larger price than charged in But such a course is denounced as cowardly! I schedule of rates, &c., gaming, gaming in a am far from believing that every man who goes grocery, carrying concealed weapons, disturbing before a Grand Jury is actuated by malice. religious society or other lawful meetings." A father might find it necessary for the welfare Over all these offences justices of the peace of his sons to report some abominable hell-hole have jurisdiction, and I now appeal to gentleof iniquity which might be destroying their men from the different counties in this State, 207 whether the justices attend to their duties under a liberty that placed the subject still farther this law in the manner they should. I want beyond the reach of kingly tyranny. those who favor the idea of placing such un- In the county I represent, this question was bounded power in the hands of the justices of neither talked of nor canvassed. It is true that the peace to answer. I know they do not. If, in some of the papers published in this city then, they now fail to perform the duties en- there were letters and articles sustaining this joined upon them by law, how much greater resolution, but so far as I could perceive, alwould be their dereliction if clothed with all though ably written they had no effect. In the power which the friends of this resolution the same paper also was an article recommendwish to cast over them. ing the abolition of the Senate, and establishAs an argument against Grand Juries, the ing butoneGeneral Assembly. These articles gentleman from Tippecanoe (Mr. Pettit) had were all well written, and from the style I supasserted that no writer of any eminence had pose came from the same pen. ever eulogized the Grand Jury system. I Mr. PETTIT. I can assure the gentleman thought at the time that that was a very broad that in that respect he is mistaken. assertion, and doubted whether the gentleman Mr. HOVEY. I beg the gentleman's parwas not in error. I have since found that he don. I only mentioned the last article to show was. Judge Story, in his 3d vol. of Commen- what radical reforms some men would advocate. taries on Constitutional Law, page 658, uses I could hardly believe that in this country the following language: any writer who is at all acquainted with the " From this summary statement it is obvious history of the old confederation of the United that the Grand Juries perform mostaimportant States and the splendid failure of the " council public functions; and are a great security to the of one thousand" in France, could seriously adcitizens against vindictive prosecutions, either by vocate such a reform, and yet the reasons and the government or by politicalpartizans, or by pri- arguments used by the writer are fully as covate enemies." gent to my mind as those used for the abolition What greater eulogy does the gentleman of Grand Juries. It is an easy thing for talwant than this? Were it necessary, and did ented men to give fine reasons for bad things. time permit, I hive no doubt a wheelbarrow In conclusion, sir, I will say that those who load of books might be produced containing sent me here want but a few reforms, such as paragraphs fully as laudatory as this. have been amply discussed throughout the But gentlemen are anxious to have things so State at large and known by experience to be arranged that punishment shall follow the com- necessary-they want no new fangled ideasmission of the crime as quickly as the peal of no experiments-no utopian plans-they want thunder succeeds the flashes of the lightning. that which is known to be good to be given to I would ask whether that would be a whole- them now, and leave all that is uncertain and som state of the law? What is the feeling that doubtful to be tested by the future. This I pervades the popular mind when a man is first consider to be sound doctrine, and I believe it accused of some high crime. Do the people is "better to bear the ills we have than fly to feel for and sympathize with him No-the others which we know not of." cry generally is, " crucify him! crucify him!" Mr. HOLMAN. Inasmuch as I have offered That is the first impulse, and that impulse seizes an amendment to the resolution of the gentlejustices of the peace as well as others. How man from Tippecanoe, (Mr. Pettit,) I shall ask will it result? Ten times in eleven in convic- the indulgence of the Convention while I make tion-and that conviction can not fail to have a few remarks upon the subject now under bad effects upon the final trial. The Grand consideration. I can say in common with othJury, on the contrary, gives the public mind er gentlemen that I feel a great degree of diftime to become cool, and the prisoner then has fidence in approaching a subject that has ala fairer chance for his liberty or life. ready been debated with so much talent and It has been denied by the gentleman from ability, and I cannot therefore hope that I shall Laporte (Mr. Niles) that Magna Charta granted be able to make any remarks that will throw to the people of England the right of being pre- much additional light upon the subject. The sented by the Grand Jury before final trial. I Convention has certainly manifested a proper think the gentleman is mistaken. Lord Coke degree of patience in listening to this investisays that the words in the Great Charter "per gation. If the same patience and research legem terra (by the law of the land) mean by shall be manifested hereafter in the discussion due process of law, that is, without due present- of important questions, which may come before mentor indictment and being brought in to an- the Convention, I have no doubt that the conswer thereto by due process of the common stitution we may adopt will receive the ready law," 2 Inst. 50 51, also 3 Story on Const. approval of the people. There are three fea661. This shows clearly that the people re- tures in the proposition before the Convention, garded that mode of trial as a right, and the and I presume that the members on this quesfact that King John granted it only under the tion may be divided into three parties. The compulsion of arms shows that he considered it proposition of the gentleman from Tippecanoe 208 is to abolish the entire Grand Jury system. \ gled to retain, at least, some of the element There are a number of very able men upon this of Constitutional Liberty, but that, after the floor favorable to that proposition; the gentle- | Revolutionary struggle, which separated the man himself has brought a great amount of tal- American colonies from Great Britian, when the ent and experience to bear upon the question. minds of the American people were incensed There is another party who think that this against every institution of Great Britain, the question should be left entirely to the control several States of the United States, in 1789,,of the Legislature-that the public will may shortly after the adoption of the Federal Concontrol and direct the manner in which crimi- stitution, adopted as a part of the amendments nal charges shall be preferred and prosecuted, to the Constitution of the United States, an arand perhaps there is another party who believe j tide securing to the citizens the right never to that the present Grand Jury system should be e be put upon his trial for a capital or otherwise retained, but that it should be so modified as to I infamous crime, except through the intervention diminish the number of offenses the investiga- of a Grand Jury. Sir, only four principles of tion of which may be brought before them. the English common law were engrafted in the There are some considerations, Mr. President, Constitution of the United States; the writ of which weigh largely on my mind against the habeas corpus-the trial by jury-protection of proposition of the gentleman from Tippecanoe the citizen against unreasonable search, and for the total abolition of Grand Juries. I think, the Grand Jury system, being the only purely;sir, we should approach with caution the abro- legislative provisions contained in that instrugation or remodeling of a system which has ment. been approved by the wisdom and experience Now, sir, this is a matter which deserves reof more than a thousand years. It has been Iflection. The period, itself, when the Grand said, sir, that the origin of the institution is a l Jury system was adopted as a permanent feamatter of total indifference; for my own part I I ture of American law, is important. The men do not so regard it. If the principle upon which who adopted it were men remarkable for their the Grand Jury system is founded was originat- I virtue and patriotism, and for the deep devotion ed for the sole purpose of sustaining tyrannical which they manifested to every principle calcupower, I should regard it as defective and illy ted to build up and secure rational liberty. It adapted to a republican government: if, on the is not probable that if this principle had been other hand it had its origin at a period however 1 one calculated to build up the strong holds of remote, amongst a people struggling to main- power, it would have been incorporated into the tain the rude rights of a primitive freedom, it, American Constitution; not in language which would be some evidence that it has for its foun- would imply that it was intended for the pun*dation a radical principle of human liberty. ishment of crime, but in language which clearIt was correctly remarked by the gentleman ly implies that it was intended to protect the from Monroe this morning, that the Grand Jury innocent from punishment. What is the lansystem is of Saxon origin, that it existed in Eng- guage of the Constitution? "No person shall be land prior to the Norman conquest, and althoughn held to answer for a capital or otherwise infait continued to exist as one of the elements of mous crime, unless, on a presentment or indictthe then rude and imperfect system of common ment of a Grand Jury, &c." Sir, it may be reJaw until the conquest of England by the Nor- marked that the best evidence of the inclination mans, it fell into disuse during the subsequent of a government to secure every liberty of the military despotisms as an improper barrier be- people, is the anxiety which is every where tween the despot and his victims, and was only manifested to protect every man in his life and revived when at a more enlightened period the liberty, and to secure his happiness. And, sir, people of England wrested from an unwilling however indifferent the people of the United king some of the elements of personal liberty; States, when the thirteen States of the Union and as an evidence that in England the right f|ormed the Confederacy, might have been as to of the subject to be put upon his trial only the punisllment of the smaller offenses, yet when through the intervention of a Grand Jury awas it came to'" life or liberty " the Fathers of the,deemed an element of liberty and a protection American Union seem to have been determined against the oppression of the crown it will be that there should be a bulwark between the remembered that for the hundred years during power of the government and the accused, and which the Star Chamber, that feariul engine of that that bulwark shoullid be the intervention of oppression and tyranny, like the French guillo- the Grand Juries. tine, continued to do its work of death, the There is a great deai of difference, Mr. PresGrand Jury almost lost its existence as a part ident, between theory and experience. The of the common law of England. i gentleman from Tippecanoe has viewed this It may be remarked, Mr. President, that this i whole question, and considered the Grand Jury principle is one of peculiar interest to the Amer- system as it has stood for ages past, and then ican people, from the fact that it was not only j he proposes to realize and adopt a plan which approved by, perhaps, the most enlightened na-, may better subserve the end for which the Grand tion in Europe, a people who have ever strug- Jury system was adopted, and he argues the 209 question thus: that the Grand Jury system was "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance," and not designed so much to protect the innocent that no government can be maintained and supfrom punishment as for the punishment of the ported without some sacrifices, more especially guilty. Sir, I undertake to say that not only in a free government; and I regard the sacrifice of England, but in America, the cause which orig- money as nothing in comparison to securing to inated and has perpetuated the Grand Jury sys- every citizen the rights which the Almighty detem, was the necessity of creating some power signed he should enjoy. There are really evils between the power of the government and the in the Grand Jury system, and if this were a legparty accused of crime. That such was the de- islative body I would heartily approve of a renmsign, at least in the United States, is manifest edy Like all human institutions, it has its imfrom the language of the Constitution of the perfections. United States, and also of the Constitution of It is said that the great argument against it Indiana. In both of those instruments it is is that it does its work in secret. It may be clearly not a power given to the government, i answered to that, however, that crime itself is but a right secured to the citizen and to him committed in secret, and thatitis perhaps propalone; that is, that no man shall be called upon er that the means resorted to by those who to answer a criminal accusation which may de- commit crime should be resorted to by the comprive him of his life or liberty, except twelve of munity in pointing out and punishing that crime. his peers shall have said upon their solemn The right of the people to be secure in their oaths, uncontrolled by the influence of power, houses and their persons from unreasonable that there was reasonable ground to believe him search is one of the principles of the American guilty of the crime charged against him. Constitution, and yet the theory of the gentleNow, Mr. President, it is proposed to abandon, man that that which is secret and which is not by a Constitutional provision, this system which made open to the light of day must necessarily has thus stood the test and been approved by have something objectionable in it, is manifestthe wisdom of ages, and to substitute therefor ly defective as inconsistent with the principles an untried theory-an experiment. Sir, I shall and practices of man in all the varied relations never be willing to abandon a long-tried system of public and private life. The home of the citifor the purpose of adopting an untested the- zen is sacred from unreasonable search, and the ory, unless it is manifest that the theory is cor- Judge determines in the secrecy of his own breast rect, and we all know that the best theories the judgment which he shall pronounce. will often be found utterly to fail. The ele- The character of the citizen is sacred; it should ments of a government calculated to secure the not be tarnished on an unsufficient cause, and happiness of man, required ages to attain per- if he be unjustly accused the secrecy of the fection, and it has been well remarked that a tribunal before which the accusation is brought government that has become, to a certain de- will, at least in some instances, prevent even gree, as perfect as human nature can make it by the whispering of a false accusation from restthe experience of successive ages, might be ing upon him. overthrown by the rude battle of a day; that it As I have already remarked, I conceive the takes a long time to perfect what it is very easy Grand Jury system to have many defects,-radito destroy. I am opposed to theory when it cal defects, and in my humble opinion the syscomes in conflict with long established princi- ter not only admits of reform, but that reform pies which have done well enough, and which is imperatively demanded by the people. The are adapted to our republican institutions; and, lapse of time has produced many changes in sir, the most enlightened minds that have ever the system. In its origin in England, each hunexisted; men of the largest capacity, who have dred of a county furnished one or more of the stood among their fellow-men as the giant oak more intelligent yeomanry, wbho met together among the lesser trees of the forest, have learned and formed the Grand Jury. It was presumed how impracticable it is form at once perma- that a Grand Jury thus constituted was fully adnent rules of action for the government of men vised of all crimes committed within the county, in the varied relations of life, experience alone from the fact that they were drawn together can perfect. Sir, look at the past. Even the from different sections of it, and their business great and philosophic mind of Locke when he was simply to present crime. Therefore, the made an effort to adopt a Constitution for one word "presentment" was used-a presentment of the colonies of the new world, utterly failed being a presentation of a Grand Jury upon their to accomplish the object, and Plato's famous own information, and an indictment being foundtheory of a republican government, exists only ed upon testimony derived from other sources. as a monument of the fact that theory unper- Such a thing as a presentment is very unusual fected by experience must ever fail; experience in Indiana, or perhaps in any part of the U. S., is the only light that can guide us in safety in yet the Grand Jury system is based upon the the future. There are many objections to the supposition that presentments are to be made Grand Jury, and the gentleman from Tippeca- of all crimes within the knowledge of the Grand noe has well remarked that it is an expensive Jury. system, and I would add, sir, that it is said that Every township is represented in a Grand 14 210 Jury, and it is presumed that inasmuch as eigh- gether as the people met in ancient Athens, or teen men are gathered from the various localities more recently in the little democracy of San of a county, they must be aware of almost every Marino, to express their own will, in that mancrime which may have been perpetrated within ner which is the most democratic, by their imits limits. It may be remarked that the Con- mediate voice, would any man say that that will stitution of the U. S. only secured this right in should be in anywise restrained in the exercise cases of capital crime and high felonies; and it of the powers of sovereignty, and although it may be well said that the Constitution of the may be necessary to limit the power of the legState of Indiana has gone too far in requiring islative department being one remove from the an indictment or presentment as the foundation source of all temporal power, the people, yet of the prosecution of every crime that may be every unnecessary restriction on the legislature committed. is a restriction upon the public will. But the I have already remarked that I believe the gentleman from Tippecanoe does not propose Grand Jury system is capable of great improve- that this restriction shall be absolute, but that ment, and that it is the duty of the people after five years have elapsed the people may through their legislative department to remedy again exercise the right which the Almighty the evils which now exist. Being assembled as has given them to enact laws for their own gova Convention to reform the Constitution, I ernment. Now I say let the people govern; would ask, what are the ends which we are let there be no unnecessary limitation upon the sent here to accomplish.! to remodel the funda- power through which the public will is to be mental law of the State; to organize a form of expressed. government; to determine where the power of The resolution of the gentleman, it appears the people shall be vested, and the manner in to me, amounts to about this; that the people of which that power shall be exercised; but not to Indiana are a sovereign people, but at the same legislate. There is in every free government time that it is not wise or politic that they necessarily a power through which the people should exercise theirliberty without some limitdirectly express their will; a department that ation; that it is therefore proper that they should construes and gives application to that will; and a not be authorized through the legislative departpower through which that will is carried into ment of their government, to determine the effect. There are three departments of govern- mode in which crimes shall be punished. It ment for this purpose, and they are known as is proposed that for five years the matter shall the legislative, the executive, and the judicial be placed beyond the control of the people; departments of governments. The judiciary that that principle which has prevailed for cendepartment may be limited without any infrige- turies should be suspended, and that after the ment of the rights of the people to control the expiration of five years if the people think public liberty. The executive department of proper to renew its operations, they may do so. the government may also be limited without an I undertake to say that the principle which dicinfrigement of the necessary powers of popular tates the resolution, is an impolitic limitation government, but the very moment you attempt of the public will. For what purpose was the to restrict the public will by Constitutional Convention convenedl Itwas to take up the limitation of the legislative power, you deprive Constitution of the State and revise and amend the people, at least to a limited extent, of the it, by changing some of its provisions; and I right of self government. I do not care what find that aimost every amendment that has been may be the authority by which the foundations proposed,has in some wise been found to be necesof a government may be laid, yet unless the pub- sary by some improper restraint put upon the lic voice cah be, and is expressed, the character legislative power by the Constitution of 1816. of a republic n, longer exists, as it is only Among thefirstresolutionswhich havebeen offerthrough the legilatlve icepartment that the puo- ed in this body, was one designed to appropriate lic will can be expressed. What, sir, is the certain fines and penalties to the use of common difference between ar m,narchy and a repuiic. schools. In the Constitution of 1816 those In the one instance tie wJil ol the people is fines and penalties were unchangeably appronot regarded, it is not i.,urd, it i nl iC carried in- priated to the use of county seminaries. Now to effect; in the other isis.Lc -', voice of the let gentlemen consider this question for a mopeople is the voice of God. I,ke it then, ment. Here was a matter purely legislativeiMr. President, that every llni;t.iil, u t the will totally destitute of any fundamental principleof the people is, to a certain exienit,,n aban- because the manner in which public money can donment of republican prlinipies, and thut be applied is a matter which can safely be left whenever the body of the peopie ioeet for ihe to the people, and yet in the Constitution of purpose of framing g Cunsi.itutoin uniess you 1l16 these fines and penalties were expressly leave unlimited the chjAnnels througji which the appropriated to a particular object, and for more public will is to be expressed, to i certain ex- ttliin thirty years has defeated the will of the tent the right of the people to self government people of the State. Now at the time that will be limited. Suppose, Mr. President, that this provision was incorporated in the old Conthe people of the State oi lldiana were met to-. stitution it seemed to be well enough. There 211 was a large fund appropriated in lands for the has never been tried-I mean the punishment endowment of common schools and a State of the higher crimes; crime through the interuniversity, but nothing for any intermediate vention of any other agency than that of Grand institution of learning. It was supposed by Juries-it cannot safely be incorporated into the framers of the Constitution of 1816 that the organic law and may safely be left with the these lands were amply sufficient for these two Legislature. It was remarked by the gentlepurposes, and therefore these fines and penalties, man from Laporte on yesterday, that the great resulting from the punishment of crime, were security against crime, is to be found in the inappropriated by constitutional enactment, to telligence, and virtue, and patriotism of the the endowment of seminaries in the several people; and it was further remarked by that counties. Now, sir, what was the effect of gentleman, that whatever may have been the this provision? In less than ten years it was dark and benighted character of that age in ascertained that the provision was an unwise which the Grand Jury system originated, that at one, that the county seminaries would not ac- this time, the people of Indiana have attained complish the end for which they were designed, such a degree of intelligence that a different and it was also ascertained that the lands ap- policy in the punishment of crime can be safely propriated for common schools were not of adopted. Now, I have as much respect for the sufficient value to effect the object. But the people of Indiana as any man upon the floor, public will in this matter, by unwise Constitu- and I certainly have perfect confidence in their tional legislation, was restricted, and could not patriotism to desire that the government shall be exercised in remedying the evil until the peo- be administered upon true republican principles. pie should call a Convention for the purpose of And, sir, our confidence in the intelligence of revising and amending the organic law. Now, the people admonishes us that we can leave this sir, was there any necessity for such a provision? matter safely in their hands. If the people Was that an unsafe matter to leave with the shall require it, the Grand Jury system should people? And yet the framers of the Constitu- be abolished by the Legislature, and if in the tion did not seem to remember that they were course of two or three years it should be found incorporating a legislative principle in it which to have an injurious effect, then the people can might ruinously effect some of the best inter- return to it by legislative enactment. In the ests of the State. I am not in favor of incor- name of God I say, let them exercise their own porating any provision in the Constitution unless will. I cannot imagine for the life of me, why it is a well tried and well understood principle, it is that we must do this work. It certainly fundamental and organic in its character, and strikes my mind as a matter purely legislative; well approved by wisdom and experience. I and the only argument that I can concieve of, am not willing to engraft upon the Constitution in favor of the proposition of the gentleman any provision which will be uncertain in its ef- from Tippecanoe is, that the legislative departfect. I am not willing to try experiments ment of government may not be equally willing which may last for years, and the effects of with ourselves to act for the benefit of the peowhich may be experienced through centuries, pie. Now the confidence which we have in the by any unnecessary restriction of the popular intelligence of the people ought to admonish us power. It will be admitted, I presume, by allthat that their representatives will be as anxious to the mannerin which a criminalaccusation should carry out their will as we are, and that if experibe preferred, or the manner in which it shall be ments of this kind are to be tried, they can try prosecuted, are matters purely legislative, and them in such a manner as will be likely to prothat it properly comes within the control of the duce the least public injury. I am not prepared legislative department. But it is felt that the to vote for the proposition of the gentleman from Grand Jury system is an evil, and that the peo- Tippecanoe, for the reason that I believe the ple may not remedy it, and that it is therefore Grand Jury system is calculated to secure the the duty of the Convention to remove it. Now I rights of the citizens, and should not be lightly take it that the same people who have elected abandoned. I regard it as a power calculated us have intelligence enough to elect an equally to preserve his property, and his person, and his intelligent body of legislators. However wise character from unfounded accusation, but I opthis Convention may be, however much intelli- pose it mainly because it is a mere matter of gence and talent there may be within these legislative expediency. wails, we do not monopolize the intelligence The gentleman proposes that all examinations and patriotism of this and all coming time; shall be public, and that the character of the there is and will be still among the people of citizen shall be wholly affected by the public the State of Indiana, material sufficient for good declaration of crime made against him. The legislators-men who will carry out the will of Grand Jury system affords a better and a securthe people, by adopting such legislstive provis- er plan. It says to the citizen, neither your ions as experience shall from time to time sug- character, nor your life, nor your liberty, shall be gest, and as the public will shall require. affected by any accusation of crime, until twelve Again, it may be said that inasmuch as the men upon their solemn oaths, have said thatyou change proposed is a matter of experiment and are probably guilty of the offense. Sir, I will 212 venture the assertion, that there are thousands implicitly received all of his representations, we of citizens within the limits of the State of In- should all believe that Grand Juries were among diana, whose characters are unaffected, untaint- the most wicked and oppressive things in the ed, untouched by even the suspicion of crime, world; that they were engines of cruelty and whose characters might have been blasted, if malice, and that society could no longer endure the offences laid to their charge by malice, had their presence. We should come to the conclubeen prosecuted in public, instead of through sion that the system was a monster which it was the medium of this institution. If accusations the bounden and imperative duty of this Conare to be made before justices of the peace, the vention to destroy forthwith. first serious one that is made against a citizen, But, sir, upon the opposite side of this queshowever malicious, might blast his character tion, among those who oppose this resolution, I and remain a blot upon it forever. It would, find equal extremes. Those who have advocattoo, put an individual within the power of mal- ed the retaining of the Grand Jury system ice, whereas the Grand Jury system is slow and would have us believe that it is one of the greatdeliberate in its operations, and, in manyinstan- est institutions of the country; that the whole ces, at least, secures the character from being judicial system would totter, and perhaps fall, injured or aspersed by malice. I hope from the without this adjunct; that it is at the foundavery fact that there are half a dozen different tion of all justice, and that without it society plans proposed as substitutes for the Grand Jury, could:ot get along. They would have us bethat we shall be admonished that it is an exper- lieve that the Grand Jury system is a great patiment, and had better be left to the Legislature ent medicine-a sovereign panacea for all the if it is to be tried, so that the evil may be reme- political diseases and ailments of the State. I died without another Constitutional Convention can no more adopt this view of the case than I -if any evil should be found to arise. That can fly to the other extreme. I shall not deGrand Juries have accomplished their object to cide in favor of anything because it comes down a certain extent, I think all gentlemen will ad- to us from ancient times, nor shall I catch at a mit, and it is manifest from all the facts which proposition and go for it because it is new. I have been elicited. But that any one of the came here to advocate a few simple reforms in proposed plans will accomplish the punishment the Constitution-those reforms which have of guilt on the one hand, and, on the other, been discussed among the people, and upon secure the innocent from punishment, both which their minds are definitely and satisfacin his person and his character is by no torily made up. I did not cometothis Convenmeans evident. I trust,therefore, that the mat- tion to abuse Grand Juries because the newster will be left to the Legislature; that we will paper called the London Times, or any other form a Constitution containing nothing but foreign newspaper, abuses the system, nor to radical and fundamental principle well tried and defend it because it has been in existence for so approved, both by the judgment and experience long a period of time. I confess, Mr. Presiof the present and the past. If we adopt a dent, that I care but very little whether Greece Constitution full of legislative provisions, sub- or Rome, and other ancient nations, had Grand ject to change as experience requires, we Juries or not, and I care as littleas tothe object will find that in a few years the people will have of the institution of the system in England. to hold another Convention for the purpose of All that I want to know upon this subject, and revising it. A constitution, sir, should be made all that is necessary for me to know, is this: to last permanently-not for a day, or half a do my people-my constituents-want Grand century, or for centuries, but for all coming Juries as heretofore, or do they desire a system time. If it be one containing nothing but of public examinations to be substituted in their fundamental and well-tried principles of radical place! When I know their wants and opinions republicanism, it must exist while man exists, upon this subject, then I am ready to act. I or at least till the arrival of that period when do not mean to be understood as affirming that "the lion and the lambshall lie down together." the debate has been altogether out of place, or Mr. BASCOM. I do not rise, Mr. President, entirely useless. I have been much enlightenwith the expectation of shedding any new light ed by some of the speeches upon this subject. upon this subject, after so many speeches from I have heard much on the advantages and disolder and abler men. This proposition, present- advantages of Grand Juries that I was not beed in the form of a resolution, for the abolition fore aware of; still I think its friends have of the Grand Jury system, by the gentleman been too partial to it, and have overpraised it, from Tippecanoe, (Mr. Pettit,) is a new ques- while its enemies have gone to the other extion, and one which I came not here to discuss; treme and abused it more than it deserved. nor do I think it worthy of the time which has Time will show, or would if a new system were already been spent in its discussion. It is not, adopted in place of the old one, that as many in my humble opinion, an important question faults would be found and as many imperfecfor the deliberations of this Convention. If tions discovered in the plan of public examinawe listened attentively to the speech of the tions as have been found in the Grand Jury; gentleman from Tippecanoe, (Mr. Pettit,) and so that the fact that the present system has 213 faults and imperfections, which are admitted I will prevent me from going for its immediate by its friends, constitutes no good argument for abolition. its abolition. And I would inform gentlemen Mr. WOLFE. Mr. President, I have not much that however the case may be in other parts of to say relative to the resolution before the Conthe State, the Grand Jury in my county does vention; but were I to remain entirely silent not go about the neighborhood to hunt up in- while this debate was going on, my constituformation about turkey shootings or a horse ents might think that I wanted to conceal my race; they attend to more important matters, views, or was afraid to express them. This is and generally sit but one or two days. not the case. It is my opinion that if you will give justices I find that the lawyers have monopolized the of the peace jurisdiction over these matters as most of the speaking in this Convention; and I well as Grand Juries-that is, allow a given believe that the farmers who are here as delenumber of justices of the peace to present a gates have not as yet spoken upon the subject. man for trial-there will not be so much clam- As I belong to that class, and.represent farmers oring for the abolition of Grand Juries. among other interests, I beg your attention to the few and brief remarks I have to make at We do not want a constant succession of th courts at the county seat, but the people desire; Pesident, ag to te that the courts should be held as seldom as pos- edet ae listening to the lengthy sible. And inasmuch as a court of public ex- and able debate upon the subject of Grand amination would sit as often as a court of rec- Ju.ies-after hearing the representations and ord, the number of courts and their sessions arguments of those who believe that the system is a bad one and should be abolished, and would be increased, hence I think that if you public examinations subtud in its place; carefully examine the state of public sentiment pu examinations substituted in ts place; you will find that the people of the State are and the of those who maintain that generally satisfied with the system of Grand o system can be substituted in the place of Juries, e Grand Juries which would answer the ends of justice so well and so satisfactorily; I say, after Many long speeches have been made here, listening to all these arguments, I must oppose some, perhaps, to make a large show upon the the resolution for the abolition of the Grand journal-to create the impression outside the Jury system introduced by the gentleman from Convention that these speakers are the great Tippecanoe (Mr. Pettit). I must oppose the men, and are doing all the work here; others resolution, because I believe it unconstitutional; of these long speeches have been made very and I put forth this opinion boldly, notwithsmooth and very fine, to suit the ears and take standing the remark of a distinguished lawyer the fancy of the ladies in the gallery. upon this floor the other day. That distinMr. President, I care not for the experience guished lawyer, in reviewing the argument of a of the past; I shall not stop to inquire what gentleman who published an article in the newsthey have done in England; I want the views papers to show that it was unconstitutional to and experience of the men of this Convention. abolish the Grand Jury system, said he " wonI want gentlemen to tell me what are the feel- dered the cows in the spring of the year did ings and wishes of the people of Indiana upon not mistake the writer for something green, and this subject; and then I want to act upon this eat him up." Notwithstanding this attempt to question accordingly. Let us meet this ques- ridicule the position taken by those who believe tion with those inquiries, as we should, and not, it unconstitutional to pass a resolution of the as some would have us, go hunting all over kind now before us, I must interpret the United God's creation for the purpose of finding this States' Constitution according to my convicarticle in a London or an English newspaper, tions; for I have taken an oath that I would do and another in a New Orleans or a Missouri so. I will not rely upon what others may say paper, for the sake of making a long speech in regard to it. Some gentlemen profess to with a great show of authority and research. have received new light upon this subject within I will take the liberty of suggesting to gentle- the last three months, that has shown them men that, in my opinion, the people of this they were wrong in their previous belief in the State do not wish to have us spending a week wisdom and utility of the Grand Jury. Is it in discussing this Grand Jury question, for in not a shame, sir, that so many able men have my part of the State the subject has hardly lived so long in the dark, and been in ignorance been mentioned; it has not been mooted at all. of the real character of our institutions until Now, when I have discharged my duty to my the present time! people who sent me here, I am satisfied, and I But I oppose the resolution, first, because I shall not stop to inquire, nor do I care whether believe it clashes with the Constitution of the the people of foreign countries are satisfied with United States; and secondly, I oppose the my conduct or not. amendment offered to it, not because I believe I have thus expressed the views and feelings it unconstitutional, but for reasons which I will which induced me to speak, and to support the give hereafter. Grand Jury system, or at least the views which Although I have watched the course of this 214 debate, I have seen nothing presented as a sub- zen, who has been falsely accused, goes on unstitute which I believe will do in the place of harmed in his business. But in the case of Grand Juries. I have been expecting that public examinations how different is it. There gentlemen would lay before us a system that the testimony has all been heard; the party has would operate better than the old one; a system been brought up in public; malicious enemies which shouid keep all the good to be found in have had the opportunity to vent all their spleen the Grand Jury, and leave out all its evils, which upon him, and the impression is somehow made we have heard so much complained of. But on a great number of the bystanders that the thus far, the projectors and friends of the reso- accused party is guilty, and that impression lution have failed to lay before us such a substi- cannot be eradicated, though the party is protute. I have waited upon them with patience, nounced innocent by the examination. And if but I have been entirely disappointed. Is it to he should be presented for trial by the exambe wondered at, I ask, that we cannot go for ining magistrate, he has no fair chance for an the resolution? impartial trial; for nine chances in ten, some Let us look at things as they are. When members of the petit jury will have been present the proper time for the session of a Grand Jury at the public examination, heard the testimony, arrives, the county clerk draws from amongst and become prejudiced against the accused. the names of the people of the county fifteen The hearing of the testimony, and the commitor eighteen names to constitute the Grand Jury. ment of the accused for trial, cannot but have These men. thus selected, are summoned to an effect upon them. For these and other reaappear at the county seat at court time. There sons, it would, in my opinion, be the height of they take a solemn oath, and then receive from folly to abandon the old system and to adopt the judge a charge relative to their duties and any new one that has been presented to this responsibilities; this charge is very often an body. hour in length. And who are present to hear It has been urged by the gentleman from Laitl I wish to call the attention of the Con- porte (Mr. Anthony) that the Grand Jury sysvention to this feature of the Grand Jury sys- tem is a very expensive one-that it costs the tem; for I regard it as of the greatest practical people of Indiana some twenty thousand dollars value to the people at large; for it is while the a year; and on this account, if for no other, judge is charging the jury that they receive should be amended or a better one substituted some of the best lessons in the laws and insti- in its place. If the expensiveness of a system tutions of their country. Witnesses, parties is to be the rule by which we are to decide upwho have suits in the court, both the Grand on retaining or abolishing it, let us abolish our and petit Juries, and large numbers of citizens supreme and circuit courts, for they are very exare always present. A solemn and carefully pensive. We might abolish our legislature considered charge to the jury is given by the also, and save many thousands of dollars annucourt, instructing them as to the nature and ob- ally. But who will be good enough to tell us jects of their office, and enjoining upon them how much we should loose by such a " penny their duty. The judge takes up the statute law wise and pound foolish policy " and tells them what crime is, explaining the Mr. President, I oppose this amendment to different degrees of crime and the various grades the original resolution, on the ground that it of punishment fixed for those crimes. The would, if adopted, defeat the object for which people hear all this, they are affected by it, the Convention was called together. they become more intelligent and better in- If the people have complained of one thing structed upon legal subjects, and they go home more than another, it is the instability of Legand talk over the matter with their neighbors. islation. They have been, for many years, We have in Indiana some ninety-odd counties, clamoring against this, and to provide a remedy and thus we have in each year one hundred and against so much instability in future legisiation, eighty of these charges delivered in presence was one of the principal causes for the assemof a large number of the people of the State. bling of this body. The people desire that the Who is to be selected to act in the place of laws should be more stable, and that the legisthis Grand Jury, should public examinations be lature should meet less often. In a word, sir, substituted? A justice of the peace One they do not wish the legislature to be simply a man instead of twelve or fifteen! Any one law-making ahd law-repealing power. will see that there is but one-twelfth of the It has been proposed by some gentlemen to chance for an able and impartial investigation dodge this whole question by referring the matthat there would be in the case of the Grand ter to the legislature. Now, sir, for one I did Jury. not come here to shift the responsibility the But the friends of public examinations tell people designed we should bear, off upon the us that they are to be conducted openly; it is a shoulders of the legislature, which is to sit here fair, open matter, they say. But, sir, how often in a few months. I know that there are many is it that Grand Juries refuse to find bills of in- here who are disposed to favor the proposition dictment against accused parties? Then nothing to leave this question of Grand Jury or no is known of the matter, and the innocent citi- Grand Jury, with the legislature; but I trust 215 that there are many here who will not act in much." It strikes me, then, that we should pause that way. I hope that the venerable fathers and reflect, and make sure that we are not alamong the delegates to this Convention, the ready going too far-so far that the people will silent workers who talk but little, will stand by not accept and approve of our doings. me in this cause, and not shrink from the re- Some of the friends of the proposition to sponsibility of settling this question in the new abolish Grand Juries have said, only give us time Constitution. enough and we will present a system in its Much has been said by the friends of public stead which will meet the general approbation. examinations instead of the Grand Jury, about Well, sir, have not the gentlemen had time the secrecy of the latter system. Why, sir, enough already? And what have they proyou might as well complain of Deity himself on duced 3 Nothing at all that any considerable this score, for he hides from us all of the future; number of the Convention will agree to accept. nor has he seen fit to reveal to us all things in I am not willing to take trust for pay. There the present. What man is there among us that is the able gentleman from Tippecanoe, (Mr. has not a secret depository of his own 3 How Pettit,) who has been laboring to find a substimany persons are there who would on no con- tute for three months or more, and what has he:sideration divulge all that lies hid in their produced Now, ir, I amwilling togivethese hearts? Very few, sir-very few indeed. There anti Grand Jury men four or five days longer is no success in any great undertaking without time in which to get out their substitute, but, afa certain degree of caution, and perhaps abso- ter they have had so much time, I am unwilling lute secrecy. Our political institutions ema- to give them any more at the expense of the nated from that great and well recognized prin- State. ciple of human nature. Nature, in many of her Mr. TERRY moved that the Convention adoperations, is secret. Man, made in the image journ. of his Creator, has his secret repository. Many M r. RARIDEN. Will the gentleman withtimes have we all seen evils growing out of the draw his motion a moment, to give me an opdivulgment of secrets. When I say that the portunity to present a proposition which I am care and secrecy of this institution weighs desirous of getting before the Convention at much in my mind in favor of its perpetuity; it this time? proves that it is and must remain a pure insti- I Mr. TERRY expressed his willingness to tution. withdraw his motion, if Mr. RARIDEN would reAgain: I am opposed to the amendment for new it for him; to which Mr. R. assented. another reason. We have been now for four THE STATE BANK. days discussing the subject. The amendment EN then pre d te proposes to leave the whole matter to the legis- tn p lature, whereby all this discussion, the twenty- n old, That the following be adopted as an Resolved, That the following be adoted as an four hundred dollars which that discussion has corporations already cost the State, and all the time it may yet consume in this Convention, would be en- INCORPORATIONS. tirely lost. Shall we, by the adoption of the The Legislature shall have power to pass amendment loose all this? Can they discuss general laws under which individuals mayincorthe matter with more ability than we are doing4 porate themselves for any purpose, as a body I contend that we are the men to decide this corporate, with such powers, privileges, and liaquestion, and better qualified than any legisla- bilities as the Legislature may see fit to bestow ture that will come after us. and impose upon them; and, after such incorpoAgain, sir: it strikes me that we should be ration, under such general law, the rights and -endangering the acceptance by the people of privileges of such corporation shall in no wise the Constitution we shall make, if we abolish be diminished by legislation, without the conthe Grand Jury system. I say this because it sent of the incorporators; and in all litigation, is well known that this matter has not been where the rights and acts of such incorporation agitated among the people. They have not de- may be involved, the same rules of construction manded it at our hands, and on our part it would and interpretation shall be applied to corporate be too great a stretch of power. There are acts that are applied to the actings and doings of thousands among the people of Indiana who natural persons. But no bank or any other pewould vote against a Constitution containing a cuniary institution, with the functions to loan clause abolishing the Grand Jury. We ought money, issue bills of credit, or receive deposits, to act very prudently in every thing we do here. or any of them, shall ever be incorporated unI think there is a spirit of innovation prevalent der such general law, without the stockholders in our midst that should be carefully guarded thereof being individually liable for all the acts against. I have seen and conversed with many of such incorporation to the full amount of their men who took a warm interest in the assembling stock. of this Convention, before and since the elec- Resolved, That the following be adopted as a tion of delegates, and the caution generally substitute for article 10 in the Constitution: given was, "be careful and avoid doing too The State Bank of the State of Indiana, with 216 the consent of the Board of Directors thereof, refers to banks, and is a substitute for the 10th shall continue to exercise and enjoy all and sin- article in the present Constitution. gular, the functions and privileges bestowed up- I ask that the propositions may be laid on the on it by its charter and the amendments thereto, table and ordered to be printed. until the first of January, 1865, remaining in all SEVERAL VOICES were here raised against other things as though its rights and functions the printing. had not been prolonged by this Constitution; Mr. PETTIT. I really hope that no objecexcept that the Board of Directors may increase tion will be made to the printing of these propthe capital stock of the State in any branch of ositions. In the first place they should be said State Bank out of the fund set apart by the printed for the use of the Convention; and in charter of said bank for the use of common the next place they should be printed in courtschools, to such amount as said board may think esy to the gentleman who presented them. safe and profitable, and, at the same time, in- There is not a single proposition there that I crease the individual stock of said branch to can go for; but it is certainly right and proper the same amount, which increased stock shall be that they should be printed. I hope that at least in all things as the original stock of said branch, one hundred aud fifty copies will be ordered. except that the Legislature of the State, at any Mr. CHAPMAN called for a division of the time after the creation of the State stock out question, of the avails of profits upon said stock to pur- And the question being first upon the moposes of common school education, or in aid of tion to lay on the table, it was agreed to. a sinking fund for the extinguishment of the Mr. PRATHER moved that three hundred State debt; and nothing herein contained shall copies be printed. prevent the Legislature of the State, at any Mr. SMITH of Ripley. I believe that by a time after the year 1862, from prolonging the resolution of the Convention every proposition charter of said State Bank, from enlarging or laid on the table will be printed, as a matter of diminishing the capital stock thereof, or from course. I regard the propositions just presented modifying its powers and liabilities, by and with as very important ones, and I desire to see them the consent of the Board of Directors thereof, printed, although all are aware that I cannot or from re-chartering another State Bank with vote for them. But I will now say to the gensuch capital, powers, and liabilities as the Legis- tleman (Mr. Rariden) that I am opposed to this lature may think proper to bestow upon it; and course of procedure, because it is anticipating any time after the expiration of one year from the action of the committee to whom the prepthe adoption of this Constitution by the people aration of a report upon this subject has been of the State, the Legislature may provide for the entrusted. incorporation of other banks within the State If we continue to introduce propositions of with such capital and such powers, franchise, this kind how long will it be before we shallget privileges, and liabilities, as may be thoughta report from that committee' The banking proper by the Legislature; provided, however, question is one of the most important that will that no monied incorporation in the nature of, come before us, and it is of the highest imporor with any of the functions of a bank of issue, tance that we get the report before us soon. discount, or deposit, shall ever be granted by Mr. RARIDEN. It is for the purpose of special act, or created under any general law, expediting business that I have offered these without making the stockholders thereof indi- propositions. It will not obstruct nor delay the vidually liable for all the liabilities of said insti- committee in making their report. I took the tution to the amount of the stock owned by positionin the beginning that every subject must such individuals at the time such liability oc- be thoroughly discussed in the Convention becurred. fore the committee should report upon it. InMr. RARIpDEN. My object, sir is to pre- stead of desiring to obstruct or hinder the com-... o t. is. -mittee I desire to give them the opinion of the sent this proposition, which is upon a subject of the of great importance, and uon the subject mat will occter of their report, and, sir, I hope all the committees mavbe a great portion of the time and earnest cons and s hope a the committees maybe thus admonished of the sense of the Conven — eration of the Convention, in so tangible a shape s admoshed ohe sense of the onventhat no one can mistake its purport., tion. that no one can mistake its purport. Mr. KELSO. I am in favor of printing these A MEMBER. Nobody will ever mistakethe propositions, and for this reason. There is, to paternity of that proposition. be sure, a Bank Committee composed of some Mr. RARIDEN. Perhaps not. But I was go- seven or eight members, and we have submitted ing to remark that the subject of corporations to them the tenth article of the Constitution of and banks would draw out much discussion here, Indiana. But suppose them to return whatever and it has been my object to draw up a brief, report you please, every member has then the clear, and comprehensive proposition, for the right to introduce and propose any amendment subject of that debate. The first proposition is to that report he may see fit. So many may to be an article to be inserted in the new Con- be introduced and consented to by the Convenstitution in relation to corporations. The other tion, that by the time you get the article in the 217 new Constitution the committee who brought Mr. READ accepted the amendment as a in the original article might be unable to dis- modification of his motion. tinguish a line of their original report. Now I The motion was agreed to. am in favor of full discussion here upon every subject to be reported upon, so that the com-CON TION. mittees may know the sense of the Convention Mr. FOSTER rose for the purpose of makupon the subject of their reports, and they will ing a correction in the published report of the thus be enabled to present more perfect reports, proceedings. The introduction of a set of resand such as will go through this body with but olutions had been erroneously.attributed to slight alterations. him, he said; and while he coincided in some of I hope the propositions will be printed and them, he certainly did not wish to be consid-. distributed all over the country. I cannot sup- ered the author of the others. port them, and I do not believe there is one man The resolutions, said Mr. FOSTER, are in fifty among the people of the State, who these: would have imagined that a proposition to ex- 1st. " Resolved, That there shall be a protend the charter of the State Bank from eighteen vision in the Constitution prohibiting free hundred and fifty-four to eighteen hundred and blacks from emigrating into this State." sixty-five, would have been presented to this 2d. "That the pay of the members of the Convention. I say it is important that the peo- Legislature be fixed at two dollars per diem pie should see and know that such a proposition for the first six weeks, and one dollar per diem has actually been made. The report of the for any length of time thereafter." Cashier of the State Bank was printed. I am not demagogue enough to propose such A VOICE. That was a matter of informa-a resolution as that, sir." tion. 3d. " That no officer shall be elected or apMr. KELSO. And so is this of the most in- pointed for a longer time than four years." teresting kind. I hope no further objection But without detaining you, sir, by reading will be raised to the printing of these proposi-them all; one is that the Grand Jury system tions. be abolished. Now I assure you, sir. that I Mr. PEPPER of Ohio. I shall go for the never introduced any such resolutions as these, Mr. PEPPER of Ohio. I shall go for the and I hope they may be attributed to their printing of the propositions just presented, al- rightful owner though there is no one of them which I can support. It is due as an act of courtesy to Mr. MOORE. I will inform the gentleman the gentleman, (Mr. Rariden,) and the proposi-from Monroe that I am the author of those restions themselves should be spread all over In- olutions, and I desire to say, at the same time, diana. that I presume there is no more demagogueism dvri ana KAR^TTA. in them than is frequently exhibited by the getnMr. LOCKHART. I shall vote to print the tleman from Monroe himelf. I think he s propositions just offered, and along with them I about as much of a demagogue as I am. should like to have printed the following: Resolved, That in the opinion of this Con- Mr. PETTIT. I desire to make a correcvention, the interests of the people and the hon- tion also of the report of some remarks made or of the State demand that a provision be in- by me on the second day of the session in retserted in the Constitution prohibiting the Leg- erence to my resolution for the appointment of islature from incorporating any bank or bank- three comittees. There is a large omission ing institution in this State. in the report, but of that omission I have no A motion was made and negatived to print complaint to make I only say as a general three hundred copies of the propositions. thing, however, that it is the duty of the SteA motion was then made to print two hun- nographer to report all that members say; he dred copies, which was agreed to. is not at liberty to leave out any portion of the On motion, the Convention adjourned until remarks of a delegate without his consent, and to-morrow morning at nine o'clock. especially at the suggestion of any other person. He ought not to mutilate the report. But I wish more particularly to correct another paragraph which I will read: FRIDAY, OCT. 25, 1850. " With reference to the proposition of the The Convention met, pursuant to adjourn- gentleman from Allen, (Mr. Borden,) he must ment. say that he considered it of but little practical Prayer by the Rev. Mr. HULL. utility. It was true that if, as the gentleman The journal having been read, proposed, nineteen committees were organized, Mr. READ of Clark moved that the regular a number of gentlemen would be gratified;n order of business be suspended, for the purpose being appointed chairmen of those committees. of receiving reports from committees. For one, he was willing to take the tail end of Mr. KELSO moved to amend the motion so any committee, although he would take occaas to suspend the rules generally for one hour. sion to say that a committee thus constituted 218 would be like a kangaroo-strongest in the by the Governor for two years, until a new Sechind quarters." retary be elected and qualified: Provided, That Now it will be recollected that what prompt- no person shall be eligible to the office of Sec-.ed this remark was that a gentleman near me, retary of State more than four years in any when I said I had no ambition to be at the term of six years. He shall keep a fair regishead of any committee, rather sneeringly and ter, and attest all the official acts of the Govtauntingly, as I thought, cried out " consent," ernor, and shall, when required, lay the same, to which I replied, very well, consent, Mr. and all papers, minutes, and vouchers relative President, but I am inclined to think that the thereto, before either House of the General committee will in that case be like a kangaroo Assembly, and shall perform such other duties -strongest in the hind quarters. The remark as may be enjoined upon him by law. could not have been justified on my part with- SEC. -. There shall be chosen by the qualiout the ejaculation which called it out first hav- fled electors, and commissioned by the Governor, ing been made. I hope that so far as that is a Treasurer and Auditor, whose powers and duconcerned, the Stenographer will make the nec- ties shall be prescribed by law, and who shall essary correction in the original report, so hold their office for two years, and until their that it may appear correctly when published in successors be elected and qualified: Provided, book form. As to the omission that I have re- i That no person shall be eligible to the office of ferred to, I am quite as well pleased that it has Treasurer or Auditor more than four years in been made, but I thought it proper to state that any term of six years. it was not done at my instance. The article and sections reported having been Mr. BORDEN. It' the gentleman from Tip- read a first time. pecanoe designs to intimate that I had any- Mr. RARIDEN said, he would like to know thing to do with, or was in the remotest degree if there was any rule which prescribed the prothe cause of the omission that he refers to, he cess through which these provisions of the Conis entirely mistaken. I have never said a stitution must pass, and how many readings word to the Stenographer on the subject. they must have. Mr. PETTIT. Not at all. I did not sup- The PRESIDENT remarked, that they must pose that the gentleman fron Allen had any- necessarily have three readings; that was the thing to do with it. I suppose that the Stenog- usual course. rapher, thinking it unimportant, had taken it Mr. PETTIT said, as this was the first porupon himself to leave it out. I never under- tion of the Constitution which had been restood from him or from any other person that it ported, he would suggest that it would be proper was calculation or design which induced the that there should be some understanding as to omission. what must be done with it; and in order that The PRESIDENT laid before the Conven- they might know precisely what they were lion a communication from the Auditor of State about, he would move to lay the report on the on the subject of the enumeration of the in- table, and that it be printed; and he would say habitants, which was laid on the table, and 300 a single word in reference to the number to be copies ordered to be printed. printed. He desired that the number should be The PRESIDENT also laid before the Con- so large that there should be at least two, if not vention a communication from the President of three copies of each division of the Constitution the State Bank, relating to the affairs of that for each member, so that, if, by the time that Bank, which was laid on the table. particular item came up for consideration, the Mr. DUNN of Jefferson presented two peti- first copy should be lost, there would be another tions from citizens of Jefferson county, praying in the document room to which reference might that the manufacture and sale of intoxicating be had. He desired that there should be surdrinks be prohibited. plus copies, not for the purpose of sending them The petititions having been read, were re- abroad, but that every member might have a ferred to the committee on the legislative de- copy in his possession when the article or propartment. vision should come up for consideration. He Mr. READ of Clark, from the committee on would move, thereore, - State officers other than executive and judici- The PRESIDENT. The report is not now ary, submitted the following report: ipending. It has been introduced and read a Mry. PRbiteNt C mt No. 4, to whi repofirst time. When it comes up on its second MR. PRESIDENT: Committee No. 4, to which MR PRESIDENT: Committee No. 4, to which,reading, the gentleman's motion will be in order. -was referred sections 21 and 24 of article 5 of, te gt s mti i e n ord -the present Constitution, have had the same un- m r PETTIT. r t s or no to move the printing of the report. Is it not? der consideration, and directed me to report the The PRESIDENT- No sir- Tile Chair following article and sections, and ask that would remark, that, under the rules, a motion they may be inserted in the new Constitution: o re te ject to print cannot be made when the subject has ARTICLE - passed from the consideration of the body. SEC. -. A Secretary of State shall be chosen Mr. PETTIT. Where is that rule to be by the qualified electors, and be commissioned found? 219 The PRESIDENT. In Jefferson's Manual. connected, and that the Government and Banks Mr. PETTIT. That may be a rule for the shall be disconnected, are doctrines equally Legislature, but it is no rule for this Convention. republican in their character. We have never adopted the rules contained in Now, sir, it is a question of importance; it Jefferson's Manual. The Convention ought is one of-those questions which are to be decidnot to tie its hands upon so necessary a motion ed by this Convention. It is, in my judgment, as a motion to print. the most important question that is to be delibMr. DOBSON. By the way of obviating erated upon, or acted upon during the session of the difficulty, I will move to suspend the rules, this Convention. Upon this question I am that the article may be read a second time now. ready and willing to show my hand-to declare Mr. WALPOLE said, that, according to par- my convictions-to avow my principles. While liamentary usage, by which legislative bodies I wish most earnestly and most seriously, that were governed, when a bill was read a first this resolution will be adopted in some form, time, the motions in order were, to reject the for I do not insist on the phraseology, I wish to bill; that it pass to a second reading-or to say that I am, at the same time, opposed to lay on the table and print; the latter motion what is usually termed free Banks. I wish itto he thought was the proper one. He objected be understood that I am opposed in sentiment to the motion of the gentleman from Owen, to all systems of Banks, and banking that have (Mr. Dobson,) because if it were agreed to, it been in use in this country I mean Banks of would throw this report one step in advance of issue. But, while I give these as my own senthe position which, according to the regular timents, I am persuaded that the people of my order of business, it ought to occupy. particular district, as well as the people of the Mr. READ of Clark said, he feared that un- whole State, are not now prepared to dispense less the Convention pursued the parliamentary with a paper currency. They are not willing course, they would go into confusion. to do it. They are in favor of a paper currenThe PRESIDENT remarked that it must be cy. I believe that to be so. And I am, thereapparant to every one, that the rules which has fore, in favor of incorporating one of the best been specifically adopted by the Convention elements for the security of the people in this were insufficient for the government of its action Constitution, a provision, that we may have a in all particulars, that they must necessarily, well regulated State Bank-if you please to impart, at least, be governed by parliamentary call it so, without any connection with it as a law. If they were to disregard every thing but co-partner or stockholder, on the part of the what was written in their code of rules, they State. If we should have any banks hereafter, would not be able to get along with the busi- I should wish that the State may exercise a ness of the Convention. control equal to that which she now exercises Mr. PETTIT withdrew his motion to print. over the State Bank, and the branches of the Mr. DOBSON, also, withdrew his motion to State Bank of Indiana. suspend the rules; and the report passed to a Well, sir, I have said that I believe it to be a second reading to-morrow. fundamental republican principle that the states, The PRESIDENT announced the first busi- in their political organization, shall be disconness in order to be the consideration of the nected from banks and banking. I have no resolution offered by the gentleman from Ohio idea, Mr. President, that a state, in its existence (Mr. Pepper.) The resolution instructs the com- as a body politic, is any more fit to deal in bank mittee on currency and banking, to report a stocks as a co-partner, or stockholder, thanit is provision declaring that after the expiration of fit to deal in any other commodity, merchandize, the present Charter of the State Bank, all produce, or what not. And this would seem to connection between the Government and the be consistent with common sense. It seems to Bank, shall cease. me that every gentleman must acknowledge Mr. PEPPER of Ohio said, he desired to call that this position is true. But let us look at the attention of the Convention, for a few min- the reason for it. A state can certainly manutes, to the subject embraced in this resolution; age no department of business, by or through and he was apprehensive that, unless he availed any other means than an agent; and it is well himself of this suspension of the order of busi- known, by every business man —by every genness at this time, he might not have an oppor- tleman who has reflected much on the subject tunity to express his views in relation to this of business, that business is nzever so well atobject for some time to come. tended to by an agent as by the principal, or I desired to say, continued MIr. Pepper, in re-' person mainly interested. A state is, therefore, gard to,this question, that it is a distinct question, not fit to be banker for this reason. It may be and that it is a question about which I have been said that our State Bank and its branches have rinduced to believe there could be no great dif- worked wonderfully well; that it has been, perference of opinion on the part of gentlemen, haps, better managed than any institution of the without distinction of party, who claim to be in same character, in any of the states of the the true sense of the term republican. The Union. I will not deny that the officers of the doctrine that Church and State shall be dis- State Bank and its branches have managed their 220 business, so far as I know, very well and very before our Revolution, and not long before it. I prudently, generally. It may be said that the mean the South Sea bubble, and the great MisBank has made for us, as a State institution, a sissippi scheme, with which the government of large fund for education, for common school pur- France was connected; and not only the govposes. That fund is represented as being now ernment, but almost every leading peer of over eight hundred thousand dollars; and it is France, and which ruined a whole community. supposed that it will be over a million of do- If it had been merely an individual concern-if lars at the expiration of the present charter of it had been a corporation entrusted with govthe State Bank. Well, sir, suppose it should ernment stocks, it could not have produced a be a million of dollars. I can show this Con- tithe of the injury that it did produce. And vention, if they need any such information, but this, it appears to me, affords us a strong arguI presume they are already in possession of it, ment against a government having any conthat this fund has been lost to the State, not by nection with Banks or incorporations of any any improper proceeding on the part of the kind. State Bank or its branches, but it so happens Well, sir, as I have remarked, if we examine that it has been loaned, under the authority of history we shall find that whole communities, the Legislature, by the President of the Bank, at various times, have gone mad in consequence for purposes of internal improvement. of delusions in regard to money projects. These Well, sir, I believe the then President of the have been a more common means of leading State Bank was an honest man-I believe le is men into madness and folly, than almost any an honest man now; and that the transaction in other; and it takes a long while to bring the regard to this matter was a perfectly honest people back to sober sense and reason. transaction, but the result has been that the Well, sir, I said I was opposed to what is money is lost to the State. commonly denominated free Banks. I believe Now, this is, to my mind, the strongest argu- we are not at present prepared for that system; ment in support of my position, that the State that is one reason, and I will not enter at presis not fit to be banker, or to be engaged in ent upon the discussion of that subject, because banking operations. I do not wish to discuss it, further than to call Although I am persuaded that the affairs of the attention of gentlemen on all sides to one, the Bank have been managed with great pru- provision contained in the resolution which I dence indeed, and that a statement of its affairs have offered, upon the merits of which it is will show large profits to the stockholders as necessary and proper that we should decide well as to the State, yet I have no fancy that before any plan of Banks or Banking shall the State shall be connected with banking op- be determined upon. erations at all. And, besides, is there any evi- If' we determine that the State shall not heredence that this good management will con- after be a stock-holder in Banks, or in any way tinue 3 connected with Banking operations, the comIt may be said that the men at present en- mittee on Banks and Banking will be prepared gaged in that institution are good business to make their report, in conformity with such men-men skillful in the transaction of the determination on the part of the Convention. business pertaining to banking. Of this I have At present, I have reason to think that the no doubt; but will they live forever? Have committee on Banks and Banking, and particu — we any assurance that their successors will be larly the chairman of the committee-a gentleas well qualified, of as good business tact and man with whom I have been long acquaintedcluainfications as they are 3 I think we have whom I know to be an honorable and highnot. minded gentleman-will, notwitstanding the The whole history of nations and of indi- modesty of his pretensions as represented to us viduals, has left us melancholy examples of the the other day in his remarks, be competent to caprice and weakness of different ages since manage the duties which have been assigned to the commencement of civilization. Individuals him on the committee-that he will perfect a and nations have gone mad on many subjects, plan similar to the one indicated by the resolubut especially on the subject of finance and tion of the gentleman from Wayne; and I have money operations generally. It has been no doubt that it will be approved if carriedinto, wisely said that men think in herds; and I will efect. add that they go mad in herds. If we look at I believe, sir, that there is no evil more to bepast history, we shall find many thousands of dreaded by a State, except war and pestilence, examples of this; and it should teach us the im- than a connection between the government and propriety of connecting monied institutions Banks. with State governments or any other govern- These are my serious convictions; and enments. How many delusions of this kind have tertaining these convictions, I most sincerely prevailed within the short period of a few hun- deprecate the extending of any favor to such a dred years; and even within the period of the plan or such a system. But my first objection lives of some who are now present. The most -and I think it is a proper objection-is, that extraordinary of all these, perhaps, occurred it is a violation of the Constitution of the 221 United States, and I do insist upon it, that the Mr. KELSO. I will withdraw it a moment sense of the Convention should be taken upon to oblige the gentleman from Monroe. the single proposition. Shall the State hereaf- Mr. REED. I wish to present to the Conter favor the present system 1 Shall the State vention at this time, the words of a man of as be connected with the business of Banking as a remarkable sagacity as ever lived. I will only stockholder inany Bank I That is the ques- read two or three paragraphs from the farewell tion. And I wish that gentlemen who are op- address of Andrew Jackson to the American posed to the Government being connected with people. He says: Banks, would show their hands; that they "The severel lessons of experience will, I would come out, and stand up to the question, doubt not, be sufficient to prevent Congress without fear, favor, or affection. I do not sup- from again chartering such a monopoly, even if pose that honorable members of this Conven- the Constitution did not present an insuperable tion labor under any fear or apprehension that objection to it. But you must remember, my Banks, as they now exist, will ever have it in fellow citizens, that eternal vigilance by the their power to injure them. They have no fear people, is the price of liberty; and that you of being under any such influence. must pay the price if you wish to secure the Sir, I have no wish to create any feeling blessing. It behooves you therefore to be against Banks, nor the manner in which the watchful in your State as well as in your Fedaffairs of Banking are conducted. I even ad- eral government." mit, as I said before, that they have been well This passage, (said Mr. Reed) if there is a managed, that they have been prudently man- line of this memoroble address more important aged, but I am seriously opposed, on principle, than another, particularly commends itself to as I have no doubt every true republican is, to the notice of this Convention. any connection between popular Governments'"The power which the monied interest can exand Banks. ercise, when concentrated under a single head I desire, sir, that this subject shall be dis- and with our present system of currency, was cussed. I wish to have the opinions of gentle- sufficiently demonstrated in the struggle made men on the subject. I hope that it will not be by the Bank of the United States. Defeated in smothered. I wish that the friends of the pro- the General Government, the same class of inposition may have an opportunity of discussing triguers and politicians will now resort to the it, and that its opponents Will have an opportu- States, and endeavor to obtain there the same nity of showing their reasons against it, and if organization which they failed to perpetuate in they can produce a conviction in the minds of the Union; and with specious and deceitful plans members of this Convention that the resolution of public advantage, and State interests and State ought not to pass, of course I shall acquiesce pride, they will endeavor to establish in the difin the decision that the Convention may make; ferent States one moneyed institution, with but I do hope, as I believe this to be a very im- overgrown captal and exclusive privileges sufiportant measure-and I think every gentleman cient to enable it to control the operation of the will so esteem it-that it may not be hurried to other banks. Such an institution will be prega decision until every gentleman who desires nant with the same evils produced by the Bank to say any thing in relation to it, shall have of the United States, although its sphere of had an opportunity to do so. action is more confined; and in the State in Mr. KELSO. This is certainly a very im- which it is chartered, the money power will be portant matter, and one that ought not to be able to combine its whole strength, and to move hastily shuffled through. There is an amend- together with undivided force to accomplish any ment pending to make the resolution a mat- object it may wish to attain. You have already ter of inquiry, instead of an imperative one, as had abundant evidence of its power to inflict at present. My colleague has just remarked injury upon the agricultural, mechanical, and that he is not particular about mere verbiage, if laboring classes of community, and over those so let him consent that his imperative resolution whose engagements in trade or speculation make be reduced to one of inquiry. them dependant upon bank facilities, thedominMr. PEPPER of Ohio. I will remark that ion of the State monopoly will be absolute, and I am a member of the committee on banks and their obedience unlimited. With such a bank banking, and we have agreed that this resolu- and a paper currency, the money power would tion, if not previously otherwise disposed of, shall in a few years govern the State and control its be referred to the same committee of the whole to measures." which the report of our committee may be re- "The mischief springs from the power which ferred. the moneyed interest derives from a paper curMr. KELSO. Then to preserve it for that rency which they are able to control, from the reference, I move to lay the resolution on the multitude of corporations with exclusive privitable. leges, which they have succeeded in obtaining Mr. REED of Monroe. I wish that the gen- in the different States, and which are employed tieman from Switzerland (Mr. Kelso) would altogether for their benefit: and unless you bewithdraw his motion for one moment. come more watchful in your States, and check 222 this spirit of monopoly and thirst for exclusive Leave was granted by unanimous consent. privileges, you will, in the end, find that the Mr. HAMILTON. I perhaps have been most important powers of government have misunderstood. I am not wedded to any parbeen given or bartered away, and the control ticular plan of settling and disposing of this over your dearest interests has passed into the bank question. Whether we shall grant a rehands of these corporations." newal of the charter of the State Bank or not, One paragraph more, Mr. President, and I is a question that should be left to the Legislahave done: ture. But I rose to say that my friend from "The paper money system, and its natural as- Ohio (Mr. Pepper) made me endorse the sentisociates, monopoly and exclusive privileges, ments of the gentleman from Wayne (Mr. Rarhave already struck their roots deep in the soil; iden). Now I respect that gentleman very and it will require all your efforts to check its much, but those propositions offered by him are further growth, and to eradicate the evil. The his own sentiments, and not mine. I neither men who profit by the abuses, and desire to endorse them nor disapprove of them. So far perpetuate them, will continue to besiege the as I am concerned, I wish to approach their halls of legislation in the General Government, sonsideration with calmness; and I must express as well as in the States, and will seek by every the hope that they will be weighed well by all, artifice to mislead and deceive the public ser- without regard to party feelings, and I hope that vants. It is to yourselves that you must look democratic or whig feelings and views will not for safety, and the means of perpetuating your enter into the discussion during all our deliberafree institutions. In your hands is rightfully tions. placed the sovereignty of the country, and to you, Mr. PEPPER of Ohio. If the gentleman every one placed in authority is ultimately re- from Allen will not endorse the gentleman from sponsible. It is always in your power to see that Wayne (Mr. Rariden) I certainly owe him an the wishes of the people are carried into faith- apology. ful execution, and their will, when once made Mr. RARIDEN, in his seat, no endorsement known, must sooner or later be obeyed. And is needed, gentlemen. while the people remain, as I trust they ever The PRESIDENT announced that the hour will, uncorrupted and incorruptible, and continue for taking up the special order of the day had watchful and jealous of their rights, the govern- arrived. ment is safe, and the cause of freedom will con- Mr. COOKERLY said, that Mr. Terry who tinue to triumph over all its enemies." had the floor for this morning, and who was pre"But it will require study and persevering pared to speak upon this question, was unwell exertions on your part, to rid yourselves of the and could not address the Convention at this iniquities and mischiefs of the paper system, time. and to check the spirit of monopoly, and other A VOICE. Speak in his place. abuses which have sprung up with it, and of Mr. COOKERLY. I feel obliged for the which it is the main support. So many inter- suggestion, but I do not represent that side of ests are united to resist all reform upon this the question. subject, that you must not hope the conflict Several members here called repeatedly for will be a short one, nor success easy. My hum- the question which was upon the amendment to ble efforts have not been spared during my ad- the resolution of the delegate from Tippecanoe ministration of the Government, to restore the (Mr. Pettit) proposing to abolish Grand Juries. Constitutional currency of gold and silver; and The PRESIDENT. The question issomething, I trust, has been done towards the Mr. BORDEN. I hope, sir, in courtesy to accomplishment of this most desirable object. the gentleman who has the floor, and intended But enough yet remains to require all your en- to speak this morning, that the Convention ergy and perseverance. The power, however, will consent to postpone the special order of the is in your hands, and the remedy must and will day. be applied if you determine upon it." The PRESIDENT was about to put the quesThese are the words of the illustrious Jack- tion upon the adoptionof the amendment to the son-they are the most appropriate to this time resolution when and place, and I will not add tothem any speech Mr. PETTIT said, I hope, sir, the question of my own. upon this important matter will not be taken Mr. RARIDEN (in his seat). Now let us until the Convention is full. There are some have thf song of Moses, aiter the Israelites had members who wish to debate it who are not prescrossed the Red Sea. (Laughter.) ent to claim the floor, because they understood Mr. KELSO renewed his motion to lay the that it was pre-occupied for this morning, andin resolution on the table. courtesy to that gentleman we should continue The motion to lay the resolution on the table the debate. There are many who have expreswas agreed to. sed a desire to hear from their constituents upon Mr. HAMILTON. With the leave of the this matter before they voted, and these would Convention, I should like to make a brief ex- be gratified if the subject could lie over for sevplanation. eral days. 223 If no other gentleman desires to discuss the Mr. COOKERLY remarked, that he would question (relative to the abolition of Grand Ju- like to have the resolution made the special orries) I will move that the special order of the der for some day next week. day be postponed until next Monday morning at Mr. RARIDEN suggested, as an amendment, nine o'clock. that the basis of representation should be one SEVERAL VOICES. Postpone it until Representative for every twenty-five hundred Monday week. inhabitants, and one Senator for every five Mr. PETTIT. Very well, I have no objec thousand inhabitants, until otherwise changed tions, and I move that the special order be post- by the Legisiature. tnMr. COOKERLY. If in order I will move poned until one week from next Monday. Mr. COOKERLY. Ifn order wi move The question being put upon the motion to to make the esoluton t special order for postpone, it was agreed to. ednesdy next. postpone, it was agreed to.DENT. TheMr. WALPOLE moved to amend the genThe PRESIDENT. The next business in tleman's (Mr. Cookerly's) motion by referring order is the resolution offered by the gentleman the subject to a committee of the whole, and from Randolph (Mr. Hawkins). making it the special order for Wednesday next The resolution is as follows: at two o'clock. Resolved, That the committee on the elective The motion was agreed to. franchise and apportionment of representation, Mr. WALPOLE moved that the committee be instructed to enquire into the expediency of on apportionment be discharged from the furproviding by a clause in the new Constitution ther consideration of the several resolutions "that a majority of the legal votes of this State which were referred to them, but now made the at a general election, by a direct vote upon the special order for some future day. If the comsubject, may extend the right of universal suff- mittee is discharged, said Mr. W., these matters rage." will be discussed and determined upon in comThe pending question being upon the follow- mittee of the whole, and the labor of the Coning amendment, proposed by the gentleman vention will be abridged. from Posey, (Mr. Hovev,) to insert the words, Mr. WOLFE. It will be too early to dis"except negroes, mulattoes and Indians," cuss the matter, for we shall not have the censThe question being put upon agreeing to the us returns all in. amendment, The motion was agreed to. The aves and nays were demanded. Mr. FOSTER offered the following resolu — tion't Mr. KELSO. As this is merely a resolution to of inquiry I hope that the amendment will be Resolved, That the Secretary of State be diof inquiry I hope that the amendment will be1 a withdrawn and the resolution permitted to go rected to procure, as soon as practicablens rom to the committee to which it is directed. the Marshal, the number of inhabitants of this to the committee to which it is directed. tor. COLFAX. Allow me to add my appealState, and that he further be directed to procure 1Mr. COLFAX. Allow me to add my appeal from the proper authorities, the number of into the gentleman from Posey that the amend- habitants in each State of the Union, according met may be withdrawn. to the present census, as authorized by act of.n KILGORE moved to lay the resolution Congress, and furnish the same to this Convenon the table..tion. The motion was agreed to. tion. The motion was agreed to. Mr. KELSO. What is the object of this MSo Ca.dothe olresolution was laid upon resolution If it is for our benefit in this ConMr. PEPPER, of Crawford offered the folvention, I would move to amend, so as to make lowing resolution: it the duty of the Secretay to lay this informaResolved, That the committee on the elective tion before the Convention, after it has been franchise and apportionment of representation, obtained. inquire into the expediency of so amending the Mr. FOSTER. I believe that my resolution Constitution that the number of Representa- is german to the subject before the Conventives in the Legislature shall never exceed one tion, which is the apportionment of the hundred, and the number of Senators shall never representation of the State. We are assemexceed fifty, leaving the Legislature with power bled at a most opportune time for the apto reduce said number at any time, if such re- portionment of the State, for both legislative duction shall become necessary. and Congressional apportionments. The Mr. COOKERLY moved to amend as fol- census has just been taken by the General Govlows: Strike out all after the word "resolved" erniment, and we have the fullest, the most acand insert: curate, and most reliable information as to the "That the committeeon the elective franchise basis of apportionment. We have as good right. and apportionment of representation, be in- to make a Congressional apportionment, as any structed so to amend the Constitution, that the future Legislature that may assemble. House of Representatives shall consist of sev- Mr. KELSO. I now understand the gentleenty members, and that the Senate shall con- man, and I move so to amend his resolution, as sist of thirty." to make it the duty of the Secretary, to lay the 224 census returns before the Convention, whenhe Mr. COOKERLY said, he thought that if shall have obtained them. the Convention had the right to apportion the Mr. PETTIT. I think, sir, that we are antici- State into Congressional districts, so long a time pating entirelytoo much in proposing to make a before their would be an election under it, it Congressional apportionment in this Conven- would be entirely unnecessary to do so. He tion. It will be two years from next August, desired to see the amendment that had been ofbefore there will be a Congressional election, ferred by the gentleman from Tippecanoe, under a new apportionment. adopted. Now, sir, I am willihg to vote for that resolu- The PRESIDENT stated the question to be tion, so far as it proposes to collect the census first upon the amendment. returns for the State of Indiana-but I shall The question being taken, the amendment oppose that part of it, which proposes to collect was adopted. the census returns from all the States in the The question next recurring upon the origiUnion. It seems to me that it would be putting nal resolution (Mr. Foster's) as amended, it was the Secretary of State to a great deal of unnec- adopted. essary trouble and labor, to collect the census Mr. WATTS offered the following: returns of all the United States. He would Resolved, That the chairmen of the severa have to write to all the Secretaries of other committees of this Convention, report back to States; for all of this information has not yet the samie, the Constitution of the State, with been forwarded to the General Government at the several proposed amendments, and that this Washington. Convention will take up the same, article by I move to strike out of the resolution of the article, with the proposed amendments, to the gentleman (Mr. Foster) so much as relates to same, and debate and pass the same in full collecting the census returns of other States. Convention. Mr. FOSTER. I believe that it is conceded WATTS. I have a few rearks which on all hands, that we need to get the informa- should like to make to the Conventon, upon called for, so far as this State is concerned. And, he subject of this resolution. I differ with the gentleman from Tippecanoe It has been said, that there should be no re(Mr. Pettit) in his views of the necessity and ps de stai committees, until the policy of making a Congressional apportionment ports made from standing committees, until the policy of making a Congressional apportionment Convention has given a pretty full expression at this time, and I can cite the gentleman to Convtio as gen a pretty full epresion precedents in favor of my position. The Con- of its sentiments, upon the subject matter of It is well known tt aao nsthae various amendments could be offred in their the old mode of apportionment is changed, and a proper places, and when e Convention that, hereafter, the House of Representatives at woamed the r last paragrap, itmembers to Washington, is to consist of a certain number, o e to u and its me er to and that the States, in apportioning, must send go home I think such a course would ver but a given number of representatives, so that much expedite business, and save a great deal the aggregate shall not exceed the number fix- e n b r. M, the resolio ed. We must ascertain the number of inhabi- motion by Mr. MILLER, the resolution tants in all the States, before we can know was laid upon the table. to what number of Congressmen we are entitled. DEAF AND DUMB ASYLUM. It was with this view that I drew up the resolu- r.AGUE offered the following: tion now before the Convention. It will in- volve but a slight expense, and as to the labor Resolved, That the Superindents of the Asyit may require, the writing of some thirty let- lums for the Deaf and Dumb, and the Blind, be ters, not more. requested to inform this Convention, at an earIt has been suggested, that allthe newspa-ly a day as practicable, the number of students pers would publish the in each together with thh eir names, ages, counConvention might get it from them. This will ties, &c., together with the cause of their deafnot answer the purpose at all, for if the news- ness, and blindness, if known. Also, that the papers do contain the census returns, they will Superintendant of the Asylum for the Insane, not be in an authoritative form, and we must have report to this Convention, how many inmates it in an official and authorized form. are under his charge at present, how many have I am willing at any proper time, to discuss been discharged as cured, and the causes of the the right of this Convention, to apportion the insanity of each, so far as he knows. State for Congressional purposes. I hope that Mr. MORRISON. I move to amend by the amendment of the gentleman from Tippe- striking out from the resolution, that part, which canoe, will not prevail, but that the original calls for information, as to the causes of thesb resolution will be adopted. diseases. 225 It would be a very lengthly history indeed, Resolved, That for the purpose of furnishing if we were to have a detailed and circumstan- the information required by the Convention of tial account of the remote, and almost number- the Secretary of State, he be authorized to emless causes, and inceptions of these afflicting ploy a clerk temporarily,until such information maladies. I hope the gentleman will accept of can be obtained. the amendment. Mr. BRIGHT. The resolution of this mornMr. TAGUE. I will accept the amend- ing, calling upon the State officers for informament. tion as to the amount of fines remitted and senThe question then being upon the original tences commuted, will require so much additionresolution, al work that the services of a clerk are much Mr. KELSO. Of what possible use can the needed for the time being. resolution now be. There canl be no necessi- Mr. KILGORE moved to amend the resoluty for this body, knowing the number merely tion so as to give the Secretary of State the afflicted with these diseases. right to call upon one of the Assistant SecretaMr. MORRISON. The resolution has as ries of this Convention for any assistsnce he much virtue in it now, as before the amend- may require in order to furnish information to ment. This Convention has not assembled for the the Convention. purpose of ascertaining cures for optical or other The amendment was agreed to. diseases, and, therefore, it is not necessary that Mr. HARDIN. If the gentleman from Jefwe should know the causes which resulted in ferson (Mr. Bright) is right, I think we should the blindness of the unfortunate inmates of the re-consider the resolution passed this morning, Blind Asylum. We cannot desire to know, and so amend it as to require less labor and whether the causes of blindness in this one case, time in preparing the information. was opthalmia, and in another, weakness of the Mr. READ of Clarke. In a communication optical nerve. which I had with the Governor a few days Mr. KELSO. The geeman from an since, I understood him to say that he had made Mr. KELSO. The gentleman from Marion ( out an answer to the interrogatories propounded (Mr. Morrison) thinks its unnecessary for us i. i to know the causes of disease, because, he says Mr IBSON remarked, that all ofthe inforwe are not assembled here for the purpose of mation alled or a hihl imor curing the inmates of our State benevolent in- M. HARDIN remarked, that if the vote was stitutions. Yet he think it important that weered e d m teen the re-considered he should move to extend the should know the number of inmates. I wouldhe o ve ask him if he thinks we are here to- erect build nqury beyond the term of twelve years. Mr. GIBSON. Twelve years is sufIfcient ings for the Deaf and Dumb, and the Insane of f purposes. The resolution, s the State l for all practical purposes. The resolution, as it is, calls for nothing but what we want. It. But as the mover of the resolution has sig- ino tion hat te Conntio will elicit no information that the Convention nified his willingness, I move that the resolunified his willingness, I move that the resolu- does not need. I venture to say, sir, that this tion be laid upon the tb. Convention will be surprised when the commuThe motion was agreed to. nication from the Governor comes in, to see the Mr. GIBSON offered the following: amount of fines and forfeitures that have been Resolved, That the Secretary of State be re-remitted. No prerogative of the Governor's ofquested to furnish this Convention with a list fice has been more abused than this. I allude of the names of all persons pardoned, or whose to no person in particular; I am speaking of all sentences have been commuted by the Govern- the Governors, without distinction. or, during the twelve years ending on the 1st Mr. READ of Clarke. I would make no of January last; the crimes for which they charge against any of the Governors, but I must were sentenced, the nature of that sentence, say, that in my opinion, the pardoning power the date of the sentence, and the date of the has been more abused than any other in the pardon; also, all lines and forfeitures by the State. And yet I freely admit, that had I been Governor remitted during the same period, the in the Governor's place for the last twelve amount so remitted, the names of principal and years, I might have granted as many pardons as surety, and the crime or misdemeanor for which the Governors have. I know that the case of the forfeited recognizance was taken or fine a wife on her knees before the Governor, begimposed. ging for executive clemency in behalf of a husMr. READ of Clarke moved to amend the band-or a mother for a son, is most affecting, resolution so as to reach over a period of twelve and an abuse of the power does not reflect so years. He said that much more satisfactory much upon the chief magistrate of the State as results would be arrived at from going back upon the system. twelve years. Mr. WALLACE. I agree with the gentleThe amendment was accepted by the mover man from Clarke (Mr. Read) when he says of the resolution, and the original resolution that there is no power so difficult and delicate adopted. to exercise as the pardoning power. I, sir, Mr. BRIGHT offered the following: have had some experience in this matter, and, 15 226 perhaps, can speak understandingly upon the to whom were referred sundry resolutions and subject. I think that the resolution calling for memorials on the subject of imprisonment for information as to the exercise of the pardoning debt; on the extension of the right of trial by power, should be amended so as to embrace all jury; on the taking of private property for pubof these acts of executive clemency since the lic use without compensation first made; and on organization of the Government. the propriety of prohibiting negroes and muI agree with the gentleman from Clarke, that lattoes from settling hereafter in this State, we should endeavor to lighten the responsibility have had these subjects under consideration, of the Governor in this respect. He should and have instructed me to report the result of have some one to share it with him. their deliberations in four sections, herewith The power vested in the Governor to remit submitted, to be incorporated in their proper fines and forfeitures has also been used to a places in the amended constitution. questionable extent. And I would say, in re- The resolutions and memorials are herewith gard to this, what I say of the pardoning power; reported back to the Convention, with a recomthe Governor should have some other body or mendation that they be laid on the table. officer with whom its exercise and its responsi- And the committee ask to be discharged from bility should be shared. the further consideration of these subjects. Mr. TAYLOR. Will the Secretary please SECTION -. There shall not be imprisonread the resolution? ment for debt, except in case of strong presumpThe resolution was read. tion of fraud. Mr. TAYLOR. I do not think, sir, that any SECTION -. In all cases where the amount resolution having for its object the authorizing in controversy shall exceed the sum of twenty of the Secretary of State, or the Governor, to dollars, and in all criminal cases whatever, the employ an additional clerk or clerks, is at all right of trial by jury shall remain inviolate. necessary, and if gentlemen will give me their SECTION —. No man's personal services shall attention for a moment, they will see that this be demanded without just compensation. No Convention is entirely wrong in attempting to man's property shall be taken by law, without make provision in regard to this matter. I pre- just compensation first assessed by a jury of sume that it is generally known that the Gov- freeholders and tendered to the owners by the ernor of a State has at his disposal what is call- person to be benefitted-but such tender, if reed a "contingent fund," upon which he may jected, shall not bar the right of appeal. draw when he thinks that the exigencies of the SECTION -. The General Assembly, at its public service demands. Should he overdraw first session under the amended Constitution, the amount of this "contingent fund" he would shall pass laws prohibiting negroes and mulattoes inform the next Legislature of the fact, and the from coming into, or settling in, this State; and amount would be promptly voted. So we need prohibiting any negro or mulatto from purchasnot arrest the deliberations of this Convention ing or otherwise acquiring real estate hereafter. to inquire whether or not the Governor has suf- The sections reported having been read a first ficient assistance to enable him to perform all time, were passed to a second reading. the duties of his station. Mr. STEVENSON desired to move that The vote being taken upon the motion to re- they be printed. consider the resolution calling upon the Execu- The PRESIDENT. The motion would not tive for certain information, the Convention re- be in order until the propositions should come fused to re-consider. up for consideration on their second reading. On motion by Mr. PEPPER of Crawford, Mr. NILES. As a member of the commitThe Convention adjourned until nine o'clock tee on the rights and privileges of the inhabito-morrow morning. tants of the State, I beg leave to submit a mi-^_____, 4.nority report, with reference to the same subjects that are embraced in the report of the maSATURDAY, OCT. 26, 1850. jority which has just been read. It was my The Convention met, pursuant to adjourn- misfortune to be unavoidably absent from the ment. meeting of the committee on yesterday. Though Prayer by the Rev. Mr. MILLS. standing alone, as I happen to do, I have this morning prepared a counter report which I beg PROPOSITIONS TO AMEND. leave to submit, and which I will read. Mr. OWEN, from the committee on the rights Mr. NILES read the following minority reand privileges of the inhabitants of the State, port: submitted the following report, and the com- M. PRESIDENT: As a member of the committee were discharged from the further con- mittee on the rights and privileges of the insideration of the resolutions and memorials habitants of the State, I respectfully report therein referred to: 1back to the Convention sections five and seven Mr. PRESIDENT: The committee on the rights of the present Constitution of the State, which and privileges of the inhabitants of the State, read as follows, namely: 227 "That in all civil cases where the value in STATE DEBT. controversy shall exceed the sum of twenty Mr. HALL, from the committee on the State dollars; and in all criminal cases except petitDebt and Public Works, reported the following misdemeanors, which shall bepunished byfine only, which was read a first time and passed to a secnot exceeding three dollars, in such manner as the ond reading Legislature may prescribe by law, the right of Mr. President: The standing committee on trial by jury shall remain inviolate." that branch of the Constitution which relates " That no man's particular services shall be to the State debt and public works, have directdemanded, or property taken and applied to ed me to report the following article, which is public use without the consent of his represent- asked to be incorporated in the new Constituatives, or without a just compensation being tion, to wit: made therefor." ARTICLE And I recommend their adoption as parts of SECTION -. The credit of this State shallnevthe new Constitution, in lieu of the sections on er be given or loaned in aid of any person, asthose subjects, reported by a majority of said sociation, or corporation. committee. SEC. - The General Assembly may contract I also signify my dissent from the report of debts to meet casual deficits or failures in the the majority of said committee relative to ne-revenue, for the purpose of paying the interest groes and mulattoes. JNO. B. NILES. on the State debt-but such debt shall not, at The PRESIDENT. The Chair would re- any time, exceed one hundred thousand dollars mark to the gentleman from Laporte, that any -Provided, that the State may contract debts to proposition submitted for the action of the Con- repel invasion, suppress insurrection, or, if hosvention must come from the majority of the tilities are threatened, provide for public decommittee, A minority has not the right to fence. submit matter for the action of the Conven- SEC. - No act of the General Assembly tion. shall authorize any debt to be contracted on beMr. NILES. I must confess, sir, that I had half of this State, except for the purposes mensome doubts upon the subject, and to satisfy tioned in the -- section of this article, unless myself I submitted my report to several experi- provision be made therein to levy and collect enced gentlemen, who thought that it would be an annual tax sufficient in amount to pay the inin order. It would be clearly irregular except terest thereon, and to discharge the debt within for the peculiar rule adopted by this Convention twenty-five years; nor shall such act take effect with reference to reports from the committees, until it shall have been submitted to the people providing that reasons shall not be reported at a general election, and shall have received a -that simply the articles or sections shall be majority of all the votes cast for and against it. reported without argument. A committee evi- SEC. - The General Assembly shall have no dently includes all its parts. And it occurred power to pass lawrs to diminish the resources of to me that this rule must modify the common the sinking fund, as now established by law, but rule of legislative bodies throughout, and that may pass laws to repeal it. unless a minority are permitted to report sec- AMENDMENT OF THE RULES. tions to be substituted for those reported by the Mr. OWEN gave notice that on to-morrow, majority, their lips must be sealed. or some day thereafter, he intended to offer a The PRESIDENT. The Chair is of opin- proposition so to amend the rules, that reports ion that the minority have the power to report of sections or propositions to amend, shall be reasons. printed upon their first reading. Mr. NILES. If that is the decision of the COUNTY AREA. Chair, and consented to by the Convention, I On motion by shall remain content. Mr. KILGORE, the resolution submitted by Mr. EDMONSTON. The gentleman from him on yesterday, was taken up for consideraLaporte can attain his object by proposing the tion, and read by the Secretary. It is as folmatter of his report by way of amendment when lows: the propositions reported by the majority shall Resolved, That the committee on county and come up. township organization, powers, and officers, be The SECRETARY again read the articles instructed to report a section for the new Conreported by a majority of the committee, and stitution, in lieu of Sec. 12, Art. 91, of the pres. they were passed to a second reading on to- ent Constitution; expressly prohibiting the Legmorrow. islature from reducing any county now organMr. STEVENSON desired to make a mo- ized, below four hundred square miles. tion to print, but Mr. COOKERLY proposed to amend by The PRESIDENT said, the proper time for a changing the proposition so as to make it a resmotion to print would be when the subject olution of inquiry. should come up for a second reading. Mr. SMITH of Ripley said, the committee on 228 county and township organization had already but right and proper that their proceeds should two or three resolutions before them, in the be appropriated to its payment. very words of this one. Mr. Kilgore's amendment having been preMr. COOKERLY withdrew his amendment. pared in writing, was now read, as follows: Mr. LOCKHART proposed to amend the res- strike out the words " devoted to the payment of olution so as to give a discretion to the Legisla- the public debt," and insert in lieu thereof, the ture upon this subject. words, " set apart for the benefit of common Mr. ROBINSON proposed to amend the schools." amendment by striking out from the original res- Mr. HALL. I hope the amendment will not olution, the words " four hundred," and inserting be adopted. The resolution is merely a propothe words "three hundred." sition of inquiry; and, as stated by the gentleMr. KENT inquired of the chairman of the man from Marion, (Mr. Maguire,) the subject committee on county and township organiza- was spoken of in committee on yesterday, and tions, whether a similar proposition was not al- it was thought proper to have it referred to them ready before that committee before taking action upon it. What conclusion The PRESIDENT. The gentleman has al- the committee may come to upon its consideraready stated that there are two or three. tion, is unknown to me. I hope, however, the And then, upon the farther motion of amendment will not be adopted, and that it will Mr. KENT, which was agreed to, it was be the pleasure of the Convention to let the resOrdered, That the resolution and pending olution take the ordinary course-let it go to amendments, be laid upon the table. the committee, and, should they come to an affirmative conclusion upon it, and report that this STATE DEL3. fund ought to be applied to the payment of the Mr. MAGUIRE offered the following resoiu- State debt, gentlemen will still have ample option: portunity to investigate the subject. Resolved, That the committee on the State Mr. BORDEN. In the portion of the State debt and public works, be directed to inquire in- where I reside, this subject of doing something to the propriety of inserting in the new Consti- toward the payment of the State debt, has beer tution, a clause providing that the proceeds of considerably agitated. I am glad, therefore, the State's interest in any of the public works, that the resolution has been introduced, and hope shall be devoted to the payment of the princi- it will be adopted. I think it would be well to pal of the public debt; and, also, that any sur- insert a provision in the Constitution of the plus in the treasury, at any time hereafter, aris- State, directing that, when the 25 cts. on the ing from taxes for general State purposes, shall $100 valuation, now levied under the arrangebe set apart for the same purpose. ment with the bond holders of the State, shall Mr. KILGORE proposed to amend, by insert- produce an excess over and above paying the ining, at the proper place, the words, " set apart terest on the debt, that that excess shall go into for the benefit of common schools." a sinking fund, and be applied to the retiring The PRESIDENT. The gentleman wil and payment of the principal of the debt itself. send up his amendment in writing. I believe that, if this Convention should close its labors without doing something for the exMIr. EDMONSTON moved to lay the whole tinguishment of the public debt, and relieving matter upon the table; but withdrew the motion he people fom the burthens of taxation which at the request of are now bearing them down, the body will fail to Mr. MAGUIRE, who desired to explain the answer one of the purposes for which it was object of the resolution. He said that the corn- onvoked. And the only way by which that obmittee upon the State debt and public works, ject can be attained must be by a prudent hushad had a meeting yesterday, with reference to banding of all our resources, and applying them the subject which they reported upon this morn- faithfully to this purpose. ing; and, at that time the subject of this resolu- The question being taken upon the amendtion was agitated before the committee, and it ment, it was not agreed to. was considered by them that they had no power And the question was then taken on the resto report upon a matter which had not been re- olution and it was adopted. ferred to them. With regard to the resolution NEGRO SUFFRAGE. itself, and the amendments, (he continued,) the C ore t f r resolution contemplates that the proceeds of the Mr CLFAX offered the llowing reopublic works of the State-such as the Madi- son Railroad, the Central Canal, or the Wabash Resolved, That the committee on the elective and Erie Canal, (if it should ever be redeemed franchise be instructed to inquire into the expeby the State, which is not very probable,) may diency of seperately submitting the question of be appropriated for the payment of the public negro suffrage to the people. debt. It is well known that the debt was con- Mr. COLFAX said: tracted for the purpose of making internal im- MR. PRESIDENT: I know how unpleasant and provements for the State, and, therefore, it seems embarrassing it is for a member to offer and at 229 tempt to advocate a proposition in any delibera- incorporation of such a clause in the Constitutive body where he realizes that the feelings, tion. It is merely to submit it separately, apart and as I maybe permitted to add in the present from all other questions, to a separate, distinct case, the prejudices of the majority are strongly vote of the people. Whom can it harm! and immovably enlisted against it. But, not- Whom will it injure No one, sir, no one. withstanding this, I desire to speak briefly in Many differ with this Convention in regard to support of the proposition I have presented. i this question. But in this way, those who do It matters little-very little, sir,-to a man thus differ have an opportunity to satisfy their who seeks only for justice and truth, whether convictions of duty, and what they regard as the he be on the popular or unpopular side. If his demands of their conscience. views are honestly entertained; if his proposi- And Secondly: Mr. President, it seems to me tions are dictated by duty, he should stand up that if we look at the law under which this fearlessly, regardless of the fate that may await Convention assembled, we can draw no other him or them. Whether he shall be received inference from it upon this question, but that a with applause or hisses-whether his proposi- separate submission of the suffrage section was tions shall be swept down in defeat, or triumph i intended. It is expressly provided thatwe should in success-whether he shall find himself in have the power to submit distinct questions to a strong majority or a weak minority, should separate votes at the time of the voting upon not, in the least degree, influence his action. the new Constitution. And I ask gentlemen And, therefore, Mr. President, the question, to point me to a single State Convention which whether this resolution would be adopted or re- has separately submitted any distinct proposijected, did not enter my mind when I penned tion to the people, where this matter of negro it, nor has it affected my course now. But i citizenship was not one of those separate subhave thought that I could show to the satisfac- missions. The Legislature which passed this tion of impartial men, some reasons why it is law knew this fact, and I hold, therefore, that eminently right and proper that the Convention by the adoption of this resolution, we would be should adopt it. acting in exact accordance with the views and And First: It is a question which underlies expectations of the Representatives of the all others in the formation of our organic law. people, who, in accordance with their vote at It is the decision as to who shall be admitted as the polls, have called us together. partners in the right to govern-who shall be But Thirdly: Mr. President, we shouldths suballowed to participate with us as citizens. It mit this question because such a course would alis the first question for consideration. And most certainly strengthen the vote upon the adopwho, sir, so proper, so well qualified to settle tion of the new Constitution. It is well know this important question as the people them- that there are, at least, five thousand voters in selves What better method can be devised the State (others rate them as high as ten thousfor its adjustment than that it should be sepa- and in number) who are ardently and, I believe, rateiy submitted as a distinct, isolated question honestly and conscientiously in favor of Univerto that people X Certainly, in so doing, we sal Suffrage to all classes and condition of men, strike out no new or untried path. We would to be restricted only by a certain term of resibut be following in the footsteps of Constitu- dence. Vote down such a proposition as thistional Conventions in other States, composed refuse even to allow of its submission, certain of as wise and discreet members as this, which as you profess to be, and are, of its rejection by have gone before us. In the great Empire a decisive majority, and you force these men, State, a majority of the Convention were oppos- nearly all of whom will be in favor of the reed to an unlimited extension of the right of suf- forms of the new Constitution. to sink all other frage to the negro race; but that Convention questions in this, and to exhibit their devotion said to the people, "we submit this question to to a principle they cherish by voting against the you. We leave you, the sovereigns here, to adoption of the whole instrument. decide who you will admit to the rights of citi- As sworn Delegates, sir, I believe it be a solzenship with you." We would but follow the emn duty devolving on us all to adopt such a example of Wisconsin, which has twice sub- course, and to take such action, as will the most mitted the question for decision at the ballot certainly insure the adoption of the new Conbox. We would but follow in the footsteps of stitution that we frame; and to prevent the exConnecticut. We would but adopt the course pectation of its friends from being thwarted, and of Michigan, the State which borders us upon the heavy expense of this Convention from bethe North, where herConvention has only recent- ing worse than wasted by the rejection of the ly adjourned. We would but coincide with instrument that comes from our hands. And, what will be, as I understand, the probable ac- sir, look what an opposition it is morally certion of Ohio, the great State that borders us on tain to encounter. be its details ever so carefulthe East. Certainly, sir, we cannot err much ly, and judiciously, and impartially arranged and mi a free State like ours (if it is not out of order agreed upon. Look at the vote at the polls on to call this a free State) if we follow the exam- the question of calling this Convention. Were pies thus marked out. We do not ask for an there not fifty-two thousand voters who said No? 230 This large portion of the people have thus people themselves, and thus allow every man to avowed that they would rather live under the relieve his conscience with respect to it. evils (for all acknowledge that there are some) of Sir, Mr. Jefferson wisely and truthfully dethe present Constitution than risk the amend- clared that " Error ceases to be dangerous, ments that would be proposed in this age of re- when Truth is left free to combat it." And, if form. We know full well-we should not, we gentlemen think as they profess, that such an cannot, shut our eyes to the fact-that no Con- extension is a dangerous heresy and error, and stitution can be made acceptable in all respects that it might sink the reputation of the State, to a large portion of these opponents of this in the opinion of some of her sisters or neighConvention. And besides, the majority who bors, let them go upon the stump, and warn the voted for the convocation of this body, were com- people against it. posed of men who favored every possible shade of Mr. President, there are several gentlemen principle-of men, some of whom gave it their of this body who have stated to me that they support because they hoped for the adoption of voted for the amendment of the gentleman from this provision, and some for another, and so on. Posey (Mr. Hovey) to the resolution of the Many, very many, of these must be disappointed. gentleman from Jay, (Mr. Hawkins,) because The result of our labors cannot please all, even they understood that, by the wording of that of those who voted for this Convention. And resolution, this question could be again and when you consider these things, you must see again submitted to a popular vote; and they that the new Constitution is destined inevita- were opposed, if that was intended, to an agitably, no matter how wise its provisions may be, tion and re-agitation of the question after it had to be met with an opposition too considerable to once been settled. Now, all we ask in this resbe lightly regarded or needlessly increased. olution is that it shall be submitted once, when Gentlemen mustremember howit was when the the New Constitution itself is submitted, so New York reformed Constitution-one of the that the people may decide, once for all, who best and wisest that has been framed in this shall be admitted into partnership with them in Republic-was submitted to the voters of that the civil compact. And, for my life, I cannot State for their decision. The very large vote see what there is in this so obnoxious and ob(I think a majority) cast against it in the city jectionable. of New York cannot have been forgotten, for In conclusion, but a word. It has been gTatiwhen it was announced it astounded the friends fying-it has been an augury of good-to see of reform. Other counties also voted against the spirit of courtesy which has pervaded this it, but happily it was adopted, perhaps because Hall, on every side, during our deliberations. this very question of negro suffrage was sepa- Every member has had an opportunity, if he rately submitted. And when members know desired it, to record his name in a direct vote that there is a large portion of the people who upon the proposition he might present. The will vote against reform in every shape, because only exception I remember was the other day, they reverence and cling to the past-because in refusing to the gentleman from Jay (Mr. they doubt the expediency of changes proposed- Hawkins) that privilege-and by amending his because, in a word, they are anti-progressive, resolution so as to completely destroy its vitaliI ask them if they do not act unwisely in re- ty, making it objectionable, even to its friends. jecting this proposition. By so doing they out- The same course may be taken with this reso. rage the feelings of those who look upon the lution. It may be loaded down with amendquestion involved in it as one of solemn princi- ments, and thus be kicked out of the way. But pie. You say to them who only ask of you an I can only appeal to the courtesy of memberopportunity such as has been afforded in other on this floor not to take this course, but to als States, to absolve themselves from an apparent low us the privilege of recording our votes di.. acquiescence in your decision as to who shall rectly upon this resolution, unembarrassed with have the right of suffrage,-"you shall have no amendments. It is simply a resolution not such opportunty. We have the power and we cut cumpulsory in its character, but merely directyou off from it." And will they not say to you ing the committee to enquire into the expedienin reply, "we will have none of your work." cy of the proposed separate submission of the It is needless for me to repeat what I have negro suffrage question to the rightful arbitersonce before stated in this Hall, that for reasons the people themselves, in their primary capacity, which seem satisfactory to my mind, I am per- at the polls. sonally opposed to negro suffrage. This posi- Mr. COOKERLY. The vote upon theresotion has not been concealed. I stated it re- lution of the gentleman from Jay, (Mr. Hawkpeatedly during last summer's canvass on the ins,) cannot but be regarded as a full expressstump, in a printed circular, and to all of all ion of the sense of the Convention; and I was parties with whom I conversed on the subject. astonished to see the gentleman from St. Joseph But I also stated that, though it was evident to (Mr. Colfax) come forward so soon afterwards, every one that the majority against that exten- and offer a resolution upon the same subject, sion would be overwhelming, I should vote to and in almost the same terms, as that which submit the question to a separate vote of the was then voted down. Sir, the gentleman has 231 tried to score us into the support of the resolu- vention can call the yeas and nays. I, for one, tion by saying, that some five or ten thousand am willing to give the yeas and nays to two, or citizens of the State will vote against the new three, or four, if they express an earnest desire Constitution., unless it shall contain his provis- to record their votes upon any proposition. ion. Sir, I, for one, will vote against his propo- And I don't know that I am disposed to deny sition, and if those five or ten thousand will vote even to the small minority of the people, asking against the new Constitution, let them do it. I for it, the right to be heard at the polls upon this have no apprehensions upon this subject, sir. question; or if I should do so, it will be for this If we make a good Constitution for the people, reason, that if we do submit the question, its I believe they will accept it; and if we do not tendency may be to increase an unreasonable make a good one, I will help them to reject it. excitement which it were better to keep down. I am willing, however, to accord to the gentle- No man who knows any thing about public man a direct vote, by yeas and nays, upon his affairs in Indiana, will maintain for a moment, resolution. that the proposition to grant to negroes the right Mr. MILLER of Fulton. This resolution, I of suffrage, can obtain amongst the people more understand, proposes to submit the question but than a very small minority. I do not pretend once to the people. I voted the other day for to decide how small that minority may be; but the amendment of the gentleman from Posey for one, I believe it would be so inconsiderable (Mr. Hovey) to the resolution of the gentleman that, when positively ascertained, it would tend from Jay, (Mr. Hawkins,) because I did not be- to make the minority satisfied and quiet. And lieve in having this matter submitted again and yet another effect would be produced by such a again to the people. But I feel disposed to vote vote. The consciousness that there is not the for this resolution, for the reasons given by the slightest disposition in the State to grant to gentleman from St. Joseph, (Mr. Colfax,) that negroes the right of suffrage-that consciousis, in order to secure the free soil vote for the ness, it seems to me, under the circumstances, new Constitution, and in order to quiet the minds should suffice to show, that it is neither to the of all parties. I assure the Convention, that I interest of the State, nor to the interest of the should vote against this proposition at the polls, negro population itself, that they should increase if it were submitted twenty times to the people. among us. This cenciousness governed me in I am sure it would endanger the new Constitu- the vote which I gave in the committee, upon tion to refuse to submit this question, and I the proposition reported this morningto exclude think, also, with the gentleman from St. Joseph, all negroes and mulattoes, hereafter, from the that it would be discourteous to refuse a direct State. They can never obtain political rights vote upon this proposition-it being nothing here. They can never obtain social rights here. more than a mere resolution of inquiry. And for these reasons, I think, we ought not to Mr. OWEN. I am not sure but that I shall have them amongst us. We ought not to have vote in the minority, upon this subject. It seems in our midst a race, daily increasing, who must, to me, that the practical results of the motion of necessity, remain disfranchised; a class of of the gentleman from St. Joseph, (Mr. Colfax,) people to be taxed, without being represented; are simply two. One is, that if we submit this on whom burdens are imposed, and wno have no question separately to the people, we shall have voice in deciding what these burdens shall be. a somewhat larger vote in favor of the amended That is my deliberate judgment; but however Constitution; and it must be confessed that. so strongly I may feel in the matter, and however far as this goes, it is a desirable result. With confidently assured of the wisdom and good all respect to my friend from Vigo, (Mr. Cook- policy of such a measure, yet I am not at all erly,) I must be permitted to say that his man- sure that it would be either unwise or impolitic ner of putting the question, so far as relates to -even with the certainty of its adoption by an this proposition, is not a proper one. He says overwhelming majority-separately to submit the gentleman from St. Joseph tries to threaten the question of negro exclusion and negro disthe Convention with the loss of ten thousand franchisement to the decision of the people. votes, which will be cast against the new Con- Mr. EDMONSTON. I deem it due to mystitution if there be no separate submission. I self, and to those whom I have the honor to do not think that a fair way of putting the represent, to say a few words upon this subject. question. If I understood the gentleman from I must differ from the gentleman from Posey, St. Joseph, properly, his object is an excellent (Mr. Owen,) though upon most questions I have one. It isto conciliate the feelings of a minor- the happiness to agree with him. I cannot ity. This is the second result. And, surely, view the matter in the light in which he pre. any policy tending to increase good feeling sents it-that we should submit this one propoamong the inhabitants of the State, is as desi- sition, which can arouse nothing but a factious rable as that we should have good will here, feeling in the State, merely to gratify this facamongst ourselves. It strikes me that the prop- tion, which is bound to trouble the State by osition embodied in the resolution before us rests agitating this question, which we know ninetyupon the same principle as that rule of this nine-hundredths of the people of the State will body under which a small minority of the Con- vote against. But why should we submit this 232 principle alonel Why not submit every propo- intention of the gentleman from St. Joseph, sition in the same way, to gratify the feelings of but I agree entirely with the gentleman who the minority. Why, sir, the people might as has just taken his seat, that, if we submit the well come in themselves and make a Constitu- question of negro suffrage alone, and do not intion without the intervention of delegates, as clude the other matters to which he alluded, we for us to refer every question to their decision shall act in an unadvised manner. I had supat the polls, especially one which we know to posed, and still suppose, that the gentleman be so well settled in the minds of the people as from the North, if his proposition succeeds, inthis is. Sir, pass this resolution, and get this tends to follow it up by moving a separate subquestion before the people, and what will be the mission of the rest of the subject. Certainly, consequence during the summer before coming if we refer to the people one branch of the subto the polls for its decision? Why, sir, you ject only, our action will be very inconsistent. would have the State flooded with those lec- Mr. DOBSON. I move to amend the resoturers, who would not hesitate to dissolve this lution by adding the following. I want to settle Union in order to carry out their principles. I, it right while we are about it: for one, cannot consent to give them the oppor- "That all persons voting for negro suffrage tunity; but I am ready to meet the question shall themselves be disfranchised: Provided, with that manly firmness, which, as representa- There shall not be a majority voting for negro tives of the people, we are called upon to exer- suffrage." cise in the settlement of all questions here. Mr. TAYLOR. Although this question is Mr. SMITH of Ripley. I rise for the pur- one which does not present itself to me in a pose of remarking, that this matter which the very favorable light, yet there is more in it, pergentleman desires to propose to the country, has haps, than upon a short reflection one would already been considered by the committee on think there is. Now, sir, it is a matter of deep the elective franchise. I think I understand concern, both to the Convention and to the peothat this morning they reported back that por- pie, that this question should be settled; and I tion of the bill of rights. venture to say, that the Convention would not In view of the fact that the committee have act wisely by rejecting the only means by which reported a proposition denying this class of per- it can be settled. I admit that it is nothing sons a residence amongst us, if it shduld be the more nor less than the spirit of fanaticism pleasure of the Convention to submit a propo- which agitates this question, and that a very sition of the kind proposed by the gentleman large proportion of the State look upon the from St. Joseph, it would be sheer mockery. question as a fanatical one. I also look upon it However, I will remark, that I have no objec- as fanatical. I am not, however, upon this action to the gentleman's proposition going before count, opposed to the resolution, and would not the committee as a resolution of inquiry. I say that I am opposed to allowing colored peothink he has a right to have the subject inquired pie to come into the State. At the present into; and I hope his resolution will be carried time, I confess that I am not prepared to go so without a call for the yeas and nays. When- far as that; though, if the report had been made ever the report of the committee upon this sub- last week, I cannot say but that I should have ject shall come up, we may have the yeas and supported it then. Although I am as much opnays upon the final vote. posed fo abolitionism, and the right of negroes Mr. BARBOUR. The gentleman from to vote, as any gentleman, yet, when we come Ripley (Mr. Smith) has in some degree antici- to see that quite a large portion of our citizens pated me in the remarks which I intended to are in favor of free soilism-a question to which make. Whenever any proposition is introduced I have ever been opposed, regarding it as even here, I feel disposed to treat it with courtesy; more mischievous than abolitionism itself-a but, in a case like the present, when we know question which proposes to fix an unfortunate a very large majority of the people and of this race of people upon our soil, and proposes no body are against the proposition, I feel myself, relief at all for them, is without any merit in also, disposed to go against it; and, sir, I will fact; but when we consider that this large pornot vote for it, since the report of this morning tion of our citizens-including some of the from the committee on the rights and privileges ablest mem of the State-regard this quesof the inhabitants of the State, incorporating tion in the light in which it is regarded into the Constitution a section to exclude ne- in the section reported this morning, would it groes and mulattoes from immigrating into this not be unwise and impolitic to take away from State, and from the right of possessing property negroes and mulattoes the right of immigration here. This proposition, I suppose, will be and the liberty of holding property? I make adopted into the Constitution in some form or these remarks, because I think it would be the other; and, after that, I would not vote for any wiser course to refer to the committee both the proposition to place in the Constitution such an resolution and the section reported this morning inconsistency as that implied in the resolution by the committee on the rights and privileges of the gentleman from St. Joseph. of the inhabitants of the State, with instrucMr. OWEN. I do not know what was the tions to report upon the whole. I cannot but 233 think that it would be more wise for the Con- and wants like other people. Look at the convention to make a special provision in the Con- dition of the negro in his native Africa. What stitution authorizing the people to vote for or was he, and what is he, there? We have imagainst these questions, than for us to take it proved the race by making them our servants; upon ourselves to decide them. Although the and every one who has discovered any merit people might decide against negro immigration, i has come out from that portion of the race I cannot but look upon this as doubtful; for it which have been brought here. Their condiappeals very strongly to the principles of hu- tion here is tenfold better than there; for, in manity and justice to say that a man, free in I Africa, when a great man's wife or sister dies, other States, shall not come in amongst us at j five hundred heads have to fall to make serall. It seems to me that this would be going vants for the departed in the other world. The further than to say, he shall not exercise the African in our Southern States is a happy man, elective franchise. I cannot say that I would i in comparison with the African proper. The vote for this proposition; but I should vote, at advantage is all on the side of those who have all times, against negro suffrage. I am in favor been stolen, if you please, and brought here as of this resolution, believing that the Conven- | slaves. And now, the spirit of this proposition tion should not, in a spirit of faction, oppose it. seems to be, that since the condition of these I agree with the gentleman from Posey, (Mr. negroes has been bettered so much, they are Owen,) and the gentleman from St. Joseph, sufficiently qualified to come over here amongst (Mr. Colfax,) that the friends of negro suffrage, | us Hoosiers and vote. although composing but a very small minority Mr. FOSTER. Sufficient to the day is the of our constituents, have rights as well as the evil thereof. I hardly think it worth while, majority; and they are looking to our proceed- Mr. President, to continue this discussion. I ings here with as much anxiety as those who understand the resolution to be merely a resoare opposed to them. But, because they are in lution of inquiry, and not a resolution instructthe minority, are they to be disfranchisedl I ing the committee to bring in an amendment. have said that I was opposed to all fanatical I am disposed to treat the gentleman from South questions; but I think there can be no harm in Bend (Mr. Colfax) with the same courtesy that allowing these subjects to go to the committee, I would any other gentleman upon this floor. and I should be gratified to see them submitted I am willing that his resolution should go to the for the decision of the people. committee; and such, I suppose, will be the Mr. DOBSON. Having submitted an amend- will of the majority, if the Convention do not ment to the proposition, I will say a word, be- pursue the same course which they did on yescause, as a legal question, I am disposed to treat terday. the subject fairly-to give it a fair hearing and For one, I am willing to allow the proposition a fair trial. Two or three papers upon this before us to go to the committee, and I hope subject have been referred already, and a simi- the yeas and nays will be taken in regard to it lar proposition was offered only the other day at some time, so that we may all show our by the gentleman from Jay, (Mr. Hawkins,) hands. It is well known, sir, that I am opposed and, by a most decided vote, its character was to negro suffrage. It was the question in our changed; and this morning the subject has come! canvass last summer; and it is also well known up again. Now, if we are going to have this that I am opposed to the immigration of negroes: question presented, I want to meet it squarely. and I am well aware that a large majority here Sir, whenever you begin to talk about making j are opposed to it, particularly on account of the negroes equal with white men, I begin to think very stringent course taken with reference to about leaving the country. The substance of free negroes by a neighboring State. There is my amendment is-and I want it fairly under- no need of excitement when we come to the stood-that, if those who are in favor of negro consideration of this question, since iwe have it suffrage are in the majority, we will leave the in so tangible a shape. I shall be prepared to country; and if we are stronger than they, let I meet it at any time; and I am confident that it them leave and we will remain. Let every is the most prudent course for us not only to man be asked this question at the polls, and, as prevent the immigration of negroes, but deprive he shall answer, let it be known who he is. them of any thing like suffrage. The gentleThe free-soil question does not come up here: man from Laporte (Mr. Taylor) has intimated that is quite a different thing. But as far as the that he is prepared to vote against negro sufquestion of negro suffrage is concerned, if we frage, but not so well prepared to vote against are to have any more of it, I want to act upon negro immigration. But in the name of comit in this most definite manner. I am satisfied mon sense, I would ask, if negroes are to be that perhaps three-fourths of the citizens of the deprived of suffrage, why should we want any State would rather leave, if the negroes were more of these cattle amongst us! It seems to to be allowed to come here anti exercise the l me there is an inconsistency in this. elective franchise. The negroes and whites Mr. KILGORE. I rise'merely to say that are of different races, and ought not to be we certainly live in an age of progression. I placed together. No pure negro has wishes, have been very much astonished to hear gentle 234 men express themselves as they have, in relation proper time, and that their report will meet the to free-soilism, for I am sure that within the approbation of the Convention. The people last two years some of these gentlemen have of the State of New York, I believe, have not been in favor with that party. Gentlemen who suffered seriously from the success of this propwould seem now never to have been in favor osition there. I believe that some of the best of free-soilism, and would, doubtless, just as men of that State are still there, not feeling readily denounce the Wilmot Proviso, in less constrained to leave merely because negroes than two years back were ready to laud both to are permitted to come up to the polls and vote; the skies. Two years ago there was not a and I should think such a result need not seriprominent man in either of the two parties who ously affect the honorable gentleman from would have been willing to denounce the Wil- Owen (Mr. Dobson). mot Proviso as a humbug; yet, in this age of Mr. ROBINSON. In the formation of a progression, at this day, scarcely a single advo- new Constitution we should endeavor to reprecate of this measure can be found in the ranks sent the rights and interests of all the people of either party. Since it is possible, therefore, in the State. I should not have said a word that the same spirit of progression might bring now, sir, but I happen to stand here representabout the same state of things in the course of ing constituents, of whom a very large and retwo years to come, would it not be better for spectable portion are free soilers, which party gentlemen not to tie up their hands nor the has been referred to in this discussion as a fachands of the people at home upon that subjectS tion. It has been affirmed that those who enI am disposed to trust the people; I do not wish tertain free soil views, compose a portion inthis to tie up their hands. I am willing to trust State. Well, if this be so, I think we ought to them, though they may sometimes for the mo- have the privilege of saying that they compose ment err; but, give them time, and they will a very respectable portion. With regard to that always come out right. portion of the community, though I believe they With respect to the proposition made by the have been misled, that their opinions are foundgentleman from St. Joseph, I have to say, that ed in error, that their zeal upon this subject has it meets my approbation. I am willing to ven- generally led them beyond their knowledge; yet ture the prediction, that this Convention will there is no party in the State of Indiana which make it a Constitutional point to submit every stands higher in point of intelligence, moral question of a State loan to the people. Then honestly, and integrity, than this the old liberty if we are prepared to call out the people to party. They compose a large portion of the decide upon a single question, such as the ex- pioneers of this country. They were here irrpediency of borrowing a few dollars, and to say proving the soil, perhaps, before some gentlethat the Legislature may submit such a question men, who have taken it upon themselves here session after session, why should we not be to denounce them, were located upon it. I am willing to submit this question, which is not sorry to see an amendment offered to this resonecessary to be submitted every year, but peri- lution, which can proceed from nothing else odically-say once in five or ten years? so that than a disposition to insult the good sense of when the time shall come, if ever, in which the this party. I say, sir, that I regret this. I re. people will be willing to admitof negro suffrage gret to see those of our fellow-citizens who -they may do so. Gentlemen talk about leaving have borne the burden, the labor, and perils of the State in such an event. Well, sir, I sup- the settlement of this country, who are the pose they will not be tied down to remain with- workmanship of God, and are as justly entitled in our borders, and I have heard of gentlemen to the liberty ot speech as ourselves, leaving their country for their country's good: denounced here, because they entertain and wherever, in any country, gentlemen op-i their sentiments honestly, and told plain pose themselves to the popular will, I suppose ly, that for this reason, they ought to be they have no longer any business there. But, disfranchised and placed in the same condition if this proposition were submitted to me to-day, with the African! I say to you, sir, that I was I should be prepared to vote against it, although astonished to see this course taken by the genI am surrounded by those who are of the free- tleman from Owen (Mr. Dobson) because [ soil party. And, whilst I make this statement, feel, that we should act here in a spirit of con. I am willing that every other man should act ciliation. I never can, and I never will, vote as he may see proper. If any man's conscience for negro suffrage, although I expect to stand should trouble him in this matter, let us leave with the majority of this Convention upon every this an open question, and, if we can, let us measure of needful reform. I believe that the take the stump and convince the public mind action of an adjoining State, has rendered it that we are right. This, as I think, will cer- necessary that the State of Indiana should detainly be a better course than to tie up the fend herself from the accumulation of the negro hands of the people at once. Let the truth be race within her borders. However hard this free to combat error, and we have nothing to may seem to operate, even if it exclude certain fear. Let this matter go to the committee, and citizens of other States, American born, I shall I hope that they will report favorably at the vote against their emigration as an act of jus 235 tice to ourselves. But, with respectto the reso- that because they choose to exercise the prinlution, I wish to take that course which will ciple of christianity and humanity, and have the tend to reconcile the discordant political ele- honesty to show their hands, they shall not enments of the State, as much as possible' I be- joy those rights which were bought by the blood lieve, that, to adopt the amendment of the gen- of their fathers. I hope the resolution will be tieman from.Owen, would be to throw a fire- referred; and that the committee will make such brand into the community. I believe that this a report as shall leave the liberty party no right Convention should not authorize the people to to complain. If we do this much, I think that vote upon the settlement of this question. I it will be apparent that we have done our duty. believe that if the whole people were to come Mr. BLYTHE. There are one or two reatogether at the polls to vote upon this subject, sons that will govern my vote upon this resoluit would only tend to widen the breach. I be- tion. It is proposed to submit a question to lieve it would increase the amount of dissention the vote of the people of Indiana, upon which, upon this vexed question, which is already spread as I conceive, the people have already expressabroad in the laud. I should not wish to see ed their opinion. I think that opinion is clearthe day when the people should meet at the ly indicated in the kind of feeling which evipolls upon the question of negro suffrage. But dently prevails upon this subject among the while I am not willing to vote for the principle members of this Convention. Every gentleof the resolution, it does seem to me that the man who has spoken upon this question, even party, which it proposes to represent, at least, those who appear to take the lead in advocathave a right to be heard here as citizens of the ing its reference to the proper committee, tell State of Indiana. I believe it is due to them us that they themselves, when they shall come that this subject should be referred to the pro- to the ballot-box, will vote against negro suffper committee; that it should be considered there; rage; and some even go so far as to say, that and I believe, that upon an examination of the they will vote for excluding free negroes from question in committee, it would be found most the State altogether. Gentlemen make this expedient and advisable to report in opposition declaration who represent a Liberty constituento the principle contained in the resolution, ac- cy-a contstiuency whose opinions are most companying the same with reasonings to satis- ultra, and unalterably fixed upon this question. fy this party that their rights have not been lost Was not this question very generally discussed sight of. throughout the State during the late canvass The gentleman from Delaware (Mr. Kilgore) And have not the people indicated their opinion, has correctly estimated that less than two years very clearly and distinctly, in the result of that ago, instead of denouncing this party as un- canvass I know thatthe people inthe "pockworthy of the ballot box, because of the princi- et," as it is called, with comparatively few exples which they honestly entertain, they were ceptions, favor the exclusion of free negroes, supported by the very gentlemen who have de- and are against negro suffrage. The opinions nounced them here, and it was a contest be- of that small minority of our fellow citizens, tween Whig and Democrat which should be who think otherwise upon this subject, I reconsidered the best free soiler. I recollect about spect, and their rights I would be unwilling to that time I went into the field as a candidate violate. But their rights they have exercised, with the gentleman from Delaware, thinking and their opinions they have expressed. So that I was as much of a free soil man as any, far as the "pocket" is concerned, I appeal to but I found that my Democratic friend was so its representatives here, whether, at the late far ahead of me, that the result was a most ad- election, they did not express their opinions mirable licking sustained by myself. [Laugh- upon this question? And if this be true, that ter.] And now two years have not yet elapsed; the voice of the State has been heard, I ask the wedding has been consummated; the court- why should it be left an open question any ship is at an end; and forsooth, we are told that longer, to agitate the public mind? if the same party shall continue to advocate There is another reason, sir, why I aIn opthe same principles they did when we opened posed to this resolution. I think it our duty our arms and invited them to our embrace, they here, in a manly and independent manner, to shall have no right at the polls! Had it not take the responsibility of acting decidedly and been for this, I should not have said a word upon distinctly. I am for shouldering the responsithe subject. My own principles are known at bility which pertains to the decision of every home. It is known there that I amopposed to question which may arise here. Sir, the prethe principles of free soilism; that I am op- sumption is, that we have been selected to fill posed to negro suffrage, and in favor of exclud- our places here because of our real or supposed ing the blacks from the right of immigration, ability and integrity-because we are intellibecause it is impossible for the two races to gent and honest enough to carry out what we coalesce as neighbors and fellow-citizens. Yet, believe to be the wishes of our constituents. I can allow, that the contrary view may be con- For this cause I maintain that we should act in sistent with the character of honest and high- a manly and independent manner. We should minded men, and I cannot say to such men, take the responsibility of incorporating into the 236 Constitution whatever we may deem proper, Mr. HAWKINS said, that he thought gentleand whatever may be in accordance with in- men over the way were getting very considerate structions received from the people. I am in reference to the interests of the people; par-. unwilling, sir, to submit to the people single ticularly as to the manner in which the Constipropositions, independent of the body of the tution shall be constructed, and submitted to Constitution; but I insist that we should their constituents. They were remarkably submit a Constitution complete in all its parts, anxious to do up the whole work themselves. and let the people take the responsibility of Willing to take the entire responsibility upon adopting or rejecting it. Gentlemen may call their own shoulders, of deciding, absolutely, all this anti-democratic or anti-republican; but I questions appertaining to the welfare of Indicall it republican and democratic, both. Now, ana; leaving no question for separate submissir, if we submit the proposition contemplated sion. And they justify this course, (a violation in the resolution of the gentleman from St. Jo- of all humane precedent,) by telling us, in the seph, (Mr. Colfax,) any other gentleman, with discussion, that a large portion of the people of equal propriety, may claim to have his proposi- the State had decided already on this great question also submitted to the people, and generally tion of human rights. The gentleman from with more propriety. For example: there is Vanderburgh (Mr. Blythe) stated, in the course the resolution proposed by the gentleman from of his remarks, that this question had been deTippecanoe, (Mr. Pettit,) which was some days cided by the people of every portion of Indiana. ago before us, and debated at great length. All over the State of Indiana, says the gentleThere is much more reason why we should sub- man, this question has been discussed, and, for mit that proposition than this. for it is admitted proof thereto, announces, in a very triumphant. by the friends of this resolution that the ma- manner-we have discussed this question in the jority in this body represent the feelings and county of Vanderburgh,-that is to say, re are wishes of the people of Indiana, with the ex- the State. Now, he ventured to say that the ception of some five or ten thousand; whereas, question, as presented by this resolution, was not upon the proposition of the gentleman from Tip- decided against by any large portion of the peopecanoe we stand here perhaps equally divided; pie. He was the fortunate or unfortunate indiat all events, neither the friends nor the oppo- vidual that first introduced aresolution somewhat nents of Grand Juries can claim any thing like similar to the one under consideration; reserving a large and decided majority, and can any one to the people the right to decide, by their vote, tell which way the people of Indiana would de- the question of universal suffrage. And, he decide if the question were submitted to them? sired briefly to inform the Convention of the Some tell us the people would reject Grand Ju- discussion that took place in the district he had ries; but, sir, this is very doubtful; I believe the honor to represent. Although he knew, as they would adhere to the present system. well us any gentleman on this floor, that, if a And because this is a doubtful question, it question of this kind was submitted to the peomight be referred to the people with more pie of Indiana, they would, by a triumphant mareason than the proposition of the gentleman jority, refuse to give the right of suffrage to the from St. Joseph. But I am opposed to submit- negro population. Yet, he had an opponent, a ting any single proposition; for if we submit very worthy and distinguished democrat, who one, why not submit all 1 I will take this oc- was in favor of submitting this question to the casion to remark, however, that if this proposi- arbitrament of the people. He was a man who, tion had been submitted in an earlier period of being actuated by the best of motives, and alive the session, in all probability it would have to human sympathy, also knew well how to found more favor than at present, but now, strengthen himself in the estimation of a pecusince the very committee to which it is address- liar portion of the people of Indiana. Long beed have reported upon the question - fore he (Mr. H.) had opened the canvass, there Mr. COLFAX. (interposing.) It is the had been promulgated, and accepted by all parcommittee on rights and privileges which have ties over that district, the very principle conreported. This resolution is addressed to the tained in the resolution he presented to the Concommittee on the elective franchise. vention a few days since. Looking upon it as a Mr. BLYTHE (continuing). I was mistak- principle right and proper, he (Mr. H.) had en about that then. However, we have a re- adopted it. He stood pledged to the principle, port upon another branch of this same question, and was ready to advocate it here or elsewhere, upon which there seems to be manifested avery now and forever. And he should have presentgreat unanimity of opinion. I agree with the ed the resolution if he had met with expulsion gentleman upon my left, that it would be acting from his seat in this body. On the same prininconsistently to refer this matter of the resolu- ciple, he was in favor of the resolution of the tion to the people, and retain in the Constitu- gentleman from St. Joseph, (Mr. Colfax.) He tion-as we surely will-the matter contained was not afraid to trust the people of Indiana, at in the report from the committee on rights and all times, upon important questions of this charprivileges. For these reasons I shall oppose acter. He was in no wise fearful of the result. this resolution. Knowing, as all must, that the people would 237 give a triumphant vote against " negro suffrage," not even excepting the resolution now under he could not see any good cause for so much discussion. The one proposes that a majority sensitiveness. It was the legitimate province of may declare in favor of the exercise by all of an a free people to decide all questions of impor- inherent and inestimable right; the other protance to themselves; and this, above all others, poses to expatriate and exile from the land of being a great question of human rights, should their birth the American negroes, the only be retained by them, for their action upon it at home they can claim upon earth, not of their any time. If the question was submitted to the own free will, but by force. Adopt the one, decision of the people now, he should vote and free principles triumph: adopt the other, and against granting the right of suffrage to that un- a stain is fixed upon the fair tame of Indiana fortunate people. If he were of those who were that time cannot wipe out. willing to confer all the rights of citizens, in the Mr. PEPPER of Crawford, said: broadest sense of the term, upon that population, Mr. PRESIDENT: I am opposed to the amendhe would not, under the state of feeling that now ment of the gentleman from Owen, (Mr. Dobexists, extend to them the right of suffrage; they son,) because it is a direct insult to a very rewould not be permitted to enjoy it. But, forthe spectable portion of the citizens of Indianacredit of Indiana, and as a matter of right and law-abiding, tax-paying citizens. I also oppose justice, he would leave it an open question, so the resolution of the gentleman from St. Joseph, that, if the time should ever be, that the people (Mr. Colfax,) because it is calculated to keep willed them the exercise of this great right, theyin agitation those sectional feelings growing might do so without any Constitutional barrierout of the slavery question, from which the Gentlemen talk about fanaticism and a fanat- country has already suffered much, and which ical spirit! Tell him of the fanaticism that ac-every citizen in Indiana should feel a desire to tuated those who favored the principle of uni-ee finally settled versal suffrage. If their desire to extend and y bei tht a e men perpetuate universal freedom and equal rights It may be, sir, that a few men could be found perpetuate universal freedom and equal rights in this State favoring negro suffrage; and so to all, be called fanaticism, what term, I ask, thit in mSn i favor fre and sois properly applicable to those in the majority, and other equally absurd notions, and ho for refusing to permit that portion of the citi- d o ther eall asrd n o r T 1- e r 1n*e.ce w would wish those views engrafted in the laws of zens of Indiana who favor this principle, th e S, would this be a sfficient reason portunity and privilege of declaring their honest the tate t thss C ao suit each ans prop sentiments through the ballot box. It is, to say osiioth is tia n ropo sed amedmet t the Conthe least, arbitrary; but I cannot but call it fa- osition, as a proposed amendment to the Con ticism-the ofspring of a fanatical spirit stitution, merely that he could have the peculpaticism-the offspring of a fanatical spirit iar ratifcation ofvoting his sentiments? Gentlemen were not willing to give any coun- iar gratification otvoting his sentiments? tenance to this proposition, because, say the, I think not. No man favors freedom of conit will produce excitement and agitation, frnish- science more than I, but as all laws should be ing a hobby upon which men could ride into of- general and operate on all alike they must fice. necessarily,under our form of government, reHe thought that any endeavors to stifle a dec- fleet the will of the majority; and whilst no man laration of principle upon this subject at the bal- will go farther to protect and favor the rights of lot box, as desired, would tend to increase anew the minority than myself, I am, at the same the agitation and excitement upon which certain time, utterly opposed to pandering to the prejpoliticians had already rode, and again desired udices of political factions-factions whose to ride into office. motto is " rule or ruin."' He desired, for one, to take these fertile topics Sir, the more this negro question is agitated for political excitement and agitation out of the and kept before the public mind by leading men hands of the politician, and place them where and politicians, the more importance attaches they belong- in the hands of the people. He to it, and greater will have to be the exertions doubted not but that all these questions would of the moderate men to counteract those inflube settled by them satisfactorily. ences. For the truth of which I have only to Gentlemen of the majority had seen proper appeal to the past history of the country. to introduce a proposition prohibiting the immi- No State, perhaps, is more under the influgration of negroes and mulattoes into this ence of sectional abolitionism than our sister State, and from acquiring or holding property. Ohio; there this faction holds the balance of powWhen the appropriate time comes, it will be er and rules the political interests of that great discussed; it is out of place now. He would State, operating with one party to-day, and say, however, that he looked upon a proposition with the other party to-morrow-always corof that kind, to prohibit the immigration of any rupting where it can. They have kept the portion of God's rational human beings, born Legislature of that State from organizing for on American soil, and under the protection of weeks, thereby defeating legislation and virtuthe stars and stripes, as a greater outrage upon ally clogging the wheels of government-inall the principles of our boasted institutions than flaming the public mind, and unsettling to some any other yet presented, with all due deference, extent, the business pursuits of life. 238 They have attained this position not from the ken he would like to be corrected. Will any merits of their cause, but from the fact that men member rise in his place and declare that he join their ranks for power, knowing that one will vote for negro suffrage I or the other of the great parties is bound to SEVERAL MEMBERS. No one-no one. have their support to succeed, and in making Mr. DOBSON. There is no one here in fathe trade they always provide for their own vorof giving negros the right of suffrage. What household. was all this discussion about then l It was alI hope Indiana never will be cursed with ready evident that the present discussion upon such influences. these subjects was kept up for political purpo — I go against the resolution on other grounds. ses. Certain members (alluding to Robinson I am opposed to submitting distinct proposi- and Kilgore) had charged leading democrats tions-the Constitution in parts. with billing and cooing with the abolitionists, 1We have been sent here to alter, amend, or alleging that they formerly dare not denounce change the organic law of the State, with the the Wilmot Proviso, but were now coming forunderstanding that that instrument when thus ward and disavowing ever having favored that altered or amended, should, as a whole, be sub- clique. mitted to the people for their acceptance or re- Without admitting the justice of the charge,. jection. Let us submit nothing but what we Mr. DOBSON said, the question here presented first approve-let us not shuffle responsibility and that of the Wilmot Proviso was wholly diffrom our own shoulders. For one, I am wil- ferent; one had no connection with the other. ling to meet all questions and settle them here He was opposed to slavery; opposed to extendfirst, and then submit them to the people for ing it over our newly acquired territory; but, their action. at the same time, he was opposed to making But, if we allow the gentleman from St. Jo- our State the receptacle for all the free negros seph, for whom I have the highest respect, to in the Union, and of all the broke down and submit a distinct proposition, we might with worthless slaves in the South, that might be the same propriety allow every delegate on this turned loose upon us, by holding out the idea to floor to submit his favorite proposition. The them that we would give them all the privileges result might be the whole instrument, however of the white citizen-making them our equals good in the main, would be rejected. in every particular. For the purpose of settling this question of If gentlemen have no desire to give negros submitting distinct propositions I have drawn the privilege of voting, why continue to press up a resolution which I will offer at the right the question one, two, three, and perhaps more time, for the consideration of the Convention, times. which is as follows: The gentleman from St. Joseph (Mr. Colfax) Resolved, That no separate and distinct prop- was very good to this same abolition party-he osition shall be submitted by this Convention proposes to let them vote once-why not keep as proposed amendments to the Constitution to the subject open to agitation, and let them vote be voted upon by the legal voters of the State; at every August election! If sincere, such is but the amended Constitution, as a whole, shall the step he should take, and not after one trial be submitted to the people for their acceptance block the game against them for all time to or rejection. come. Mr. DOBSON said, he would give briefly the He had only to say that if the minority were reasons that had induced him to offer the amend- desirous of making political capital out of these ment which had called forth so much criticism questions, there was another side to the question, from members. He had thrown it out merely and that was that the same course could be purto show how a minority could be annoyed as sued by the majority, and perhaps with greater well as the majority. Gentlemen had declared success. Nevertheless, he had ho idea that such that we had met this question at the very thresh- a plan would be resorted to. Resolutions and hold with insult, and had treated its friends un- petitions of the character, like that now precourteously. The various propositions in rela- sented, had been referred to the appropriate tion to negro suffrage and their emigration into committee, and by that committee been reported the State had been discussed and referred to ap- upon, and he doubted not it would be settled in propriate committees, and reported upon to the a manner satisfactory. It was granted, or apConvention, and he considered if there was any peared to be granted, on all hands, that the insult offered, it was to the majority in bringing Convention, as well as the people, were almost forward these propositions again and again that unanimously opposed to negro suffrage-if this had already been acted upon, merely for the were so, and they all knew the fact, of what purpose of making political capital. He had of- use was it to consume their time in useless and fered his resolution then, merely to show the worse than useless discussion on the subject? minority that there were means for annoying The subject had been discussed throughout the them as well as the majority. He apprehend- State, and the people of the State had instructed that there was not a member on that floor ed their delegates here to vote upon the question in favor of negro suffrage, and if he was mista- and all that remained for them to do was to in 239 sert in the Constitution that was to be submit- Mr. B. said, that having offered the amend — ted to the people, an article prohibiting the ment which he had, he deemed it but justice to right of negroes to vote at the polls. Any fur- his constituents, his colleagues, and himself, to ther discussion of the question now or on the say that they were all opposed to the extension passage of a proposition to give it to the people of the right of suffrage to any portion of the in a distinct form for their vote-was unneces- colored population, and his only objectin offersary. ing the amendment was to enable gentlemen As to the remarks of the gentleman from to vote on the question, in so tangible a manDelaware, (Mr. Kilgore,) in regard to the idea ner, that their constituents could properly unof gentlemen leaving the State rather than to derstand them, and determine the necessity and live on an equality with negros, he did not propriety of referring the resolution. When know that the State would suffer a very serious the question should be taken upon the adoption loss if both of them were to leave-the State of his amendment he should demand the yeas probably, could get along very well without and nays, and vote no. either of them [laughter and cries of " con- Mr. MAGUIRE observed, that he desired tosent."] He had asked leave of absence for make a brief explanationin regard to the course fifty-six hours from the Convention for the gen- he had pursued a few days ago, in reference to tleman from Delaware,'and he could not but this question, when a resolution of similar imthink if he had asked it in sober verity, to the end port was proposed by the gentleman from Jay, of the session, that it would have been granted, (Mr. Hawkins,) in order that the motives which inand that he could have been very well spared fluenced him mightnotbemisunderstood. It will during the remainder of Ihe session. be recollected, said he, that the gentleman from To speak seriously in regard to a portion of Posey (Mr. Hovey,) offered an amendment to this matter at issue, he must object to this idea that resolution, which, if adopted, would defeat of submitting separate propositions in connect- the object contemplated by the mover of the ion with the Constitution, for the people to vote resolution, and he had voted in favor of laying upon. The people had sent them there to form the amendment on the table, for the purpose of a new Constitution entire-a Constitution bet- enabling the mover to have a direct vote on his ter than the old one, and all that it was their own proposition. duty to do, was to enact such a Constitution, He wished to say that he had always voted. and submit it to the people for adoption or re- for resolutions which contemplated simply an jection. inquiry into the expediency of proposed measHe could get up forty propositions to submit ures, and this he thought he should still do, proin a distinct form to the people, if they were to vided the resolutions are respectful in their allow the principle in this instance. Every character. Thishe thought was due, as a matgentleman knew that the people would vote ter of courtesy, to gentlemen who offer proposidown the principle of negro suffrage,then why tions, and in no wise committed him to the submit it in a distinct form at the polls? He support of measures embraced in the resolutions. would now withdraw his proposition, or amend- The inquiry could do no harm, and if deemed ment, for fear that some gentleman might think inexpedient by the committee to which it may seriously of it; he had merely offered it to let be referred they will report against it, and that gentlemen know that if they were disposed to is generally the end of the matter. Sometimes annoy or give provocation inregard to any sub- gentlemen feel bound to introduce matters for ject they could be paid back in their own coin. the consideration of the Convention, when they The negros had his sympathy-he was sorry are satisfied that a majority of the members are for them, but he could not consent to place opposed to the object of the inquiry, and somethem on an equality with the whites; we should times indeed when they may themselves be ophold out no inducements to bring them here- posed to it. The resolution of the gentleman but rather hold out inducements for those that from Jay was respectful in its terms, and he had are here to leave in a reasonable time, induce aright to introduce it; and if the Convention them to'go back to Africa-they will take with chose to refuse the liberty to have the matter them the Bible, and a knowledge of our Insti- inquired into, it was still due to him that the tutions-they will ultimately occupy all that vote should be taken upon his own proposition, country and become a prosperous and happy and not compel him, by an amendment which people. destroyed its object, to vote against his own resMr. BERRY offered the following amend- olution. Besides, he thought it was better to ment: permit it to be adopted without opposition, and Strike out from the resolving clause and in- if the committee should have made a report. sert in lieu thereof the following, viz: "That which did not meet the views of the Convention, the committee on the elective franchise, &c., action could then have been taken and a fair be instructed to report a provision for the new opportunity presented for a test vote, without Constitution, providing that negroes and mulat- involving the question of courtesy. The demand toes shall be voters at all elections in this of the yeas and,nays never determines the sense State." of a deliberative body, as to the merits of a 240 measure when the proposition is in the shape of inquiry, couched as this one is in respectful an inquiry, and hence the call of them in such language, and introduced by a gentleman for cases is calculated to embarrass members, and whom he had much respect, he could but feel subject them to misapprehension. My constit- regret that so exciting a subject should be a secuents, said Mr. M., are opposed to extending ond time brought before the Convention, after the right of suffrage to colored persons, and they it had been determined by so large a majority knew he concurred with them in opinion. Whilst that it was not a proper matter for considerahe was utterly opposed to the further extension tion. of slavery, and was far from wishing to oppress Mr. COLFAX remarked that, so far as imputhe colored man, he did not think that any pur- tations of unworthy motives were thrown out pose of usefulness or humanity would be an- by one or two gentlemen who had spoken upon swered by conferring upon them, in the present this subject, he should not attempt, as he did not state of public sentiment, the right of suffrage. desire,to answer them. Members, of course,had Having said thus much in regard to the reso- the right to suspect the motives which prompted lution of the gentleman from Jay, he would acts of others. They had a right, perhaps, to briefly allude to the resolution now under con- suppose that they were governed by any thing sideration. If this were an original proposition else but duty. But, said Mr. C., when such rehe should feel constrained, for the reasons pre- marks are indulged in, I shall not attempt to viously stated, to vote in favor of its adoption. refute or to reply to them. Conceding to every He must say, however, that he regretted its in- gentleman in this Hall that his course is prompttroduction again, and he would be glad if the ed by honorable aims and by clear convictions gentleman could, consistently with his sense of of duty, I shall not assail or impugn their duty, and his obligations to his constituents, motives, however widely I may differ from withdraw it. The question had already been them. And it is for them to decide whether settled by a decisive vote that an inquiry into they will treat others who differ with them, the subject matter of the resolution was no twith the same respect. deemed expedient. It must be apparent thati t I need not repeat the reasons for the introoperates as a fire-brand, producing unpleasant duction ot this resolution. They were given excitement, and disturbing that harmony and but an hour or two since. It has been presenttranquility which it would be desirable always ed, not because those who favor it are themto see prevail in the discharge of the important selves friendly to negro suffrage, but because and responsible duties with which this Conven- they believe the adoption of the course suggesttion is charged. The re-introduction of the ed by it would give more general satisfaction to same matter already decided against, could not, those in favor of that extension, and would as he could perceive, be productive of any bene- strengthen the vote upon the adoption of the ficial consequences. The resolution, it is true, reforms in the main instrument which this proposes only an inquiry into the expediency of Convention will doubtless approve and present the measure, and that measure proposes only to the people. But if the Convention did not the submission of a question to the people for see fit to allow the reference of this simple intheir consideration and determination. If this quiry, there was of course no remedy. The miConvention were, by consent, to determine that nority would not reply in a similar manner; for, that question should be separately submitted to believing as was wisely said a few days since the people to be voted upon by them, that would by the gentleman from Posey (Mr. Owen) that by no means subject the members to the charge there were perhaps ten questions worthy of exof being in favor of negro suffrage. It would amination and inquiry, to every one that was only manifest a deference to the will of the worthy of adoption, they would make no resistpeople, and a confidence in their judgment and ance to the fullest inquiry on all subjects, even capacity for self-government, which we all pro- though they might differ in the widest degree fess to entertain. That the people, with their from the views of their movers. present feelings on the subject, would vote Mr. President, there has been some complaint down the proposition by an immense majority, by gentlemen on the other side, in regard to the is not at all doubtful. time occupied in the discussion of this question. If the Convention should insert in the Con- Who, sir, is responsible for this? If the resostitution a general clause by which the Legis- lution under discussion had been an imperative lature might be permitted, under wholesome re- one, in which the principle itself was to be destrictions, to propose to the people propositions cided by a test vote, the charge might more for such amendments as in the progress of properly have been made. But, sir, it has been things may seem to be demanded, (and he gentlemen on the other side, who have led thio thought it would be proper to do so,) that would debate into the channel where it now is. They affoid an opportunity, if at any time it should had debated the motion almost as if it were an be deemed advisable, to submit this or any oth- article of the Constitution, reported by the er question to the people. committee, and this question, now to be taken, He concluded by saying, that while he dis- was upon its final passage. And they had also liked very much to vote against a resolution of endeavored to make its adoption a test ques 241,tion,asitshouldnotbe. I endeavored,inpresent- Resolution after resolution was introduced, ing it, to avoid a line of argument which would either expressly advocating or looking to the provoke a long discussion or inflame prejudice; prevention of the immigration of free blacks inbriefly stating the reasons which prompted the to the State. How were they treated! Was resolution of inquiry. And I stated then, as I there a solitary word of objection raised against state again, that we do not wish to weary this their being received and referred to an apbody with a discussion of this question that propriate committee? Was there an attempt.seemsto them so unpalatable. But we do desire, made to prevent or to hinder the fullest investiand we do demand, the privilege of placing our- gatioa of that great question, which involves.selves upon the record as being favorable to a vital interests of humanityT No, sir, lo. All,proposed distinct vote of the people upon this opposition was reserved till the friends of that question. True, gentlemen who seem specially measure had had time to mature their views, and to dislike any allusion to the colored race, ex- present them, in an article, tothe Convention. cept it is from their own stand-point of hostili- This is what we deemed courtesy required, nay, ity, complain that this same proposition has demanded. But.a different measure of it has been made two, three, four times already, and been meted out by gentlemen on the other side. that the Convention is thus weary of it. I take No sooner was the proposition of the gentleissue with them or this, for the very reverse is man from Jay before the House, than an amendthe case. The proposition, the only other one ment was proposed to it, and subsequently at all akin to this, of my friend from Jay, (Mr. adopted, which destroyed all its vitality. And Hawkins,) differed materially from mine. It, as no sooner was this resolution introduced than must be remembered, proposed that the ques- it is met by amendments, in spite of all appeals tion might be taken whenever the Legislature to the contrary, and those who dare to defend.might direct, and, by inference, as often as they it have their course sneered at, and their motives might direct. Whereas the one under discus- impugned. sion, following the precedents of other States, Sir, if men are to regulate their course by the only contemplates one submission of the ques- amount of favor and laudation with which their tion, to be at the very time when the new Con- propositions are received, there would be little;stitution itself is voted upon. And, sir, this is progress in the world, and less reform. How the first, the very first, resolution of this kind was the proposition for taking the election of which has been presented. Judges from the corrupt system of legislative How, Mr. President, has it been met? At elections and giving it to the people, at first re-.the very threshhold it encountered the strong- ceived! Only with sneers and hisses. Its author est, most determined, and, I might almost say, was a mere demagogue, of course, endeavoring bitter opposition. Every appeal has been made to flatter the people for their votes-so the ar-.by its opponents that could tend to its rejec- gument ran-and the plan that he proposed was.tion. No argument has been left unused that unsafe, and dangerous to the independence of would excite prejudice against it or its support- the judiciary. But he knew that sneers were sers. And the free-soil party who, though small not arguments, and he persisted. And where in numerical strength, number in their ranks as is that reform now! Where stands the man in high-minded and honorable men as any upon this hall who dare raise his voice against it? this floor, and who have the right, as American And what does experience, that wise teacher, citizens, to have their course considered as tell us of the result of that experiment in the,based upon what they believe to be their duty, States which have tried it. Look, sir, also, at have been dragged in here to be abused and de- the manner in which that wise reform of the nounced. freedom of the public lands to actual settlers And what great boon did we asks We was received, when first presented for public asked the bare privilege of recording our consideration. Its advocates were denouncedvotes upon this proposition, unembarrassed by branded as agrarians-their principles derided, amendments and provisos, which would vary it and they themselves held up to contempt and from its original language and intent. This scorn. But, I rejoice to say, they faltered not. privilege had been extended to all other mem- And where is that principle now! Borne on bers, upon all other questions, when they de- the rising, swelling tide of public approval, it is sired it. It may be refused now. Some two destined in a few short months, or years at or three amendments have been proposed or farthest, to become the permanent and estabsuggested to prevent the attainment of this ob- lished policy of our country. From such lesject. All appeals to the courtesy or magnanim- sons as these, I have learned to follow wherever ity of gentlemen upon the other side may be duty leads, regardless of what may be the temfruitless. But, if they are, it will only be an- porary verdict upon the question, and I shall not other proof of the fact which history and expe- shrink here or now from any responsibility I rience teach us, that majorities, not always just, have assumed. are often tyrannical. It has been triumphantly declared by the genLet us pause, gentlemen, and look back at tieman from Owen, (Mr. Dobson) that there -the course pursued by those who differ with you. was no member upon this floor who dared to 16 242 rise and avow himself personally, in favor of feelings of a constituency to represent and negro suffrage. He had asked, and re-echoed carry out, I shall myself, so far as my action is the question, "where is the man-let him show concerned, endeavor to cultivate and to assistin himself." Unfortunately, for what was doubt- increasing that spirit of courtesy, which so es — less intended as the remainder of the gentle- sentially aids in producing harmony and kindly man's argument, no one replied. And he went feelings amongst the Delegates in this Hall. on to argue therefore, that, as there was no one Pending the question, on motion, here in favor of that extension, it was ridiculous The Convention adjourned until 9 o'clock on to submit it to the people. But, sir, is it indeed Monday. true, as appears to be assumed, that we are the people; and that if none of us favor a proposition, its advocates among the masses are too inconsiderable to be counted or noticed! Do one MONDAY, OCT. 28, 1850. hundred and fifty men, sitting within the bar of The Convention met, pursuant to adjournthis Hall, constitute the People of Indiana, or ment. at least, that portion only entitled to respect or Prayer by the Rev. Mr. BABB. regard? Why, sir, each one of us, with few Mr. BORDEN presented the petition of cerexceptions, but barely represents the majority tain persons of color residing in Allen county, of his immediate constituents. They were vo- in this State. He felt bound, he said, to state ted for only by that majority-their views differ, the fact that the petition was from colored perperhaps widely, from large, and respectable and sons, that the House might not be deceived; intelligent minorities. We can only claim, as he believed it was the first petition of the therefore, to be the mouth-pieces-the chosen kind that had been received from a class of delegates, of these majorities; for the minorities persons who were not legal voters. had no part or lot in our selection; and we come He also presented a petition from certain inhere really against their will. Thus, sir, these habitants of Steuben county, on behalf of the minorities are unheard upon this floor. But colored race. have they no rights? Even though they may The petitions were read by the Secretary. have no man to speak for them here, are they Mr. KELSO said, he supposed a final disponot part and parcel of the whole people of the sition might as well be made of this matter at State of Indiana, for whose interests we should once. It might as well be at once determined labor, and whose rights we should endeavor to whether they would have any thing to do with protect, and not to trample upon. Even though petitions of this character or not. He would there may be no man here who is in favor of move that the petitions be not received. universal suffrage, is it not well known that Mr. PETTIT said, he should not vote for there are thousands of respectable citizens in the proposition of the gentleman from Switthe State who are in favor of it' And they are zerland (Mr. Kelso) to reject the petition. I not confined either to the Free Soil party. I shall not, said Mr. Pettit, vote to reject or re — found while canvassing, prominent citizens, not fuse to receive any petition that is sent here by belonging to the third party, who warmly advo- any persons or by any individual who can either cated it, one, in particular, now in my mind, who sign a petition for himself or get anybody to do is confessedly one of the most influential mem- it for him. At the same time, I certainly shall hers of the Democratic party, who had held be as far from granting the prayer of these peoffice, and had been a popular candidate, too, on titions as any one can be. that side of the question but very recently,who Mr. EDMONSTON said, he would suggest told me, and had spoken of it too, openly, that, to the gentleman from Switzerland that these if the question was submitted to the people, petitions had better lie on the table. Unless he should unquestionably vote in its favor. the gentleman desired to make some remarks, There were several thousands, undoubtedly, he would move that they be laid upon the outside of the Free Soil party who were advo- table. cates of this principle. Mr. KELSO said, he had no particular solicitIt is needless to occupy the attention of this ude on the subject. His only purpose in making Convention longer. From all the indications, the motion was to settle the matter at once, and it has been prejudged that this matter should to let it be clearly understood that the Convennot go to a committee, and I do not wish to tion was not disposed to receive petitions of weary the patience of those who have at least, this character; but there was another question given me an attentive hearing. I have been which would necessarily arise, and that was, gratified at the exhibitions of real courtesy that whether the emigration of blacks into the State have so frequently been witnessed in this Hall, could be prevented. And the decision of that since the commencement of the session. And question would turn upon the question whether notwithstanding the fate that probably awaits they were citizens or not. If they were not my motion, which will be aided too, by gen- citizens, they had no right to petition; the tiemen who, though disposed perhaps, to give provision of the Constitution of the United it a reference, feel that they have the strong States respecting the right to petition, was ap 243 plicable only to citizens, who were authorized tion of such petitions. I have no sympathy by it to assemble together in a peaceable man- with any such measure as they ask for. If the ner and petition Congress or the Legislature gentleman from Allen (Mr. Borden) would confor a redress of grievances, and if they were sent, I should like to see a motion made to recitizens, he apprehended the Constitution of ject the petitions. the United States would nevertheless be found Mr. DOBSON said, he thought they should to interpose obstacles to the admission of peti- at least admonish those who were sending these tions from that class of people. He made these petitions here, that it was not proper that they suggestions from the desire he felt that this should continue to send them. He would make question should be disposed of; but as he did no motion on the subject, however. The petinot desire that the free action of the Conven- tions that he referred to were those which were tion should be impeded, he would withdraw the gotten up and signed by religious sects, and motion. forwarded to this body as expressing the wishes Mr. E)DMONSTON moved that the petitions of such religious sects or societies. The peobe laid upon the table. At the request of Mr. pie of the State, said Mr. D., have a right to Borden, however, he withdrew the motion for petition in their capacity as citizens; but when the present. churches or religious denominations, in a body, Mr. BORDEN said, he had another petition sign petitions and send them up here, I think of the same character to present, and it was his they are going counter to the spirit and genius intention to submit a motion or resolution for of our institutions; it is altogether wrong. They the reference of all of them, with definite in- are not recognized as such societies by our laws structions, to a committee. Such a resolution, and institutions. I did not rise, sir, to make being imperative, the matter would lie over one any motion, nor to make an objection to the day. In the event, however, that the proposi- course proposed to be taken, but merely to offer tion of the gentleman from St. Joseph should the suggesion that I have made in reference to be adopted, he intended to move that the peti- this class of petitions. tions be referred to the same committee to Mr. BORDEN. I think my friend is miswhich that gentleman proposed to refer the taken, when he says that our laws and institusubject. tions do not recognize religious societies. I Several MEMBERS. Let the subject lie believe that the law provides how they are to over until the other question is disposed of. associate themselves together for religious purMr. BORDEN. Very well. I have no ob- poses. The law does recognize different sects jection that it should lie upon the table for the of religion. present. If the Convention will extend to me Mr. DOBSON. But it does not recognize the courtesy to take the subject from the table them as associated bodies for any political purwhen the other matter shall have been dispos- poses, although it does recognize the individuals ed of, I will consent that the petitions shall lie of which such denominations or sects are comnpon the table. posed, as citizens. Mr. EDMONSTON renewed the motion I Mr. BORDEN. Well, sir, petitions have that the petitions be laid upon the table. been received from religious societies by the The motion was agreed to. Congress of the United States. Such petitions Mr. BORDEN then presented another peti- were received soon after the Constitution of the tion, and it having been read by the Secretary, United States was adopted. Petitions were rehe moved that it also be laid upon the table for ceived from the Society of Friends, at their the present. yearly meeting in Philadelphia, on the subject of Mr. SMITH of Scott requested the gentle- slavery and the slave trade. At various times man from Allen to withdrav his motion for a this has been done. I do not know whether it moment, to enable him to submit a remark. is not right, when people are assembled in their Mr. BORDEN withdrew the motion. religious associations, and on other occasions of Mr. SMITH of Scott said, he desired simply assembling together, that they should be at libto remark that it seemed to him that it would erty to sign petitions, as well as at political be perfectly useless for the Convention to re- meetings. I cannot see the impropriety of ceive petitions of this character. They could sending up petitions signed in this manner, take no action upon them. It occurred to him merely because they happen to be assembled that they were in violation of the Con- in an association for religious purposes. stitution of the United States. A petition Mr. MORRISON of Marion. This, sir, is a of a similar character, said Mr. S., was pre- subject which I regard as one of very considersented here a few days ago, purporting to be able importance. I do not object to religious from the denomination of Christians called Bap- denominationspresenting petitions here. They tists. I have as much sympathy for them as for are not disfranchised. They have the same poany other denomination of Christians; but when litical rights as others. But I do not think the I see them presenting petitions here in open Convention is taking the right course in regard violation of the Constitution of the United to this matter. I think if we were to refer States, I must withhold my assent to the recep- these petitions to a committee, and let them 244 make a report on the subject, stating that it is so long detained the Convention. I, sir, said ia contravention of the Constitution of the he, fully concur with those gentlemen who are United States, and giving such other reasons as opposed to submitting this question of negro they deem necessary and proper to be given, suffrage as a separate and distinct question to why it is inexpedient to receive petitions of this the people. We are sent here for a specific kind, we should stop the mouths of those claim- purpose. That specific purpose, as it seems to ing the right. For these reasons, I should like'me, is the formation of a Constitution. to see these petitions referred to a committee, Now, sir, it is not to be supposed that gentleand an argumentative report made on the men who come up here from all parts of the subject. State, entertain the same views of the many A MEMBER. A standing committeecannot questions which are to be submitted to them. report argumentatively. On the other hand, it is to be expected that they Mr. MORRISON. A select committee may. will entertain very different views of these vaThe laying of the petitions on the table, or re- rious questions. But, because there is a differjecting them, is, I think, an aggravation of the ence of opinion amongst ourselves, are we, therecase; it tends to irritate and to induce them to fore, to come to no decision t Why, sir, we show their strength; but if we close their have come here, as I understand the matter, for mouths by giving them an answer to their peti- the express purpose of making known, intertions, we shall have done our duty. changing, and, if possible, reconciling these difMr. BORDEN. What is the motion! ferent views. If we find we cannot reconcile The PRESIDENT. There is no motion them, what then is to be done? Evidently, we pending. are to ascertain the views of the majority, and, Mr. BORDEN. Then I renew my motion having ascertained them, we embody those views to lay the petition on the table. in a Constitution, and then send it forth to the The motion was agreed to. people for their ratification or rejection. The PRESIDENT announced the unfinished Now, there have come up before this Convenbusiness to be the resolution of the gentleman tion, other questions, quite as important, it seems from St. Joseph, (Mr. Colfax,) to which an to me, as this question of negro suffrage. At amendment had been offered by the gentleman any rate, questions, and important ones too, from Franklin (Mr. Berry). have come before us, upon which this ConvenThe resolution is as follows: tion is more equally divided. Take, for instance, "Resolved, That the committee on the elec- the question introduced by the gentleman from tive franchise be instructed to inquire into the Tippecanoe, (Mr. Pettit,) in regard to the aboexpediency of separately submitting the ques- lition of the Grand Jury system. There is not tion of negro suffrage to the people." a member on this floor who does not know that To this resolution, the Convention is nearly equally divided on that Mr. BERRY had offered the following amend- question. Now, if we may, with propriety, rement: strike out all after the word "resolved," fer to the people one question, why may we not, and insert the following: with equal propriety, refer another? And, sir, "That the committee on the elective fran- with how much greater propriety may we refer chise, &c., be instructed to report a provision those questions, concerning which we know for the new Constitution, providingthat negroes there is a great diversity of opinion, as well and mulattoes shall be voters at all elections here as amongst the people. I conceive, Mr. in this state." President, that the duty which we have to perMr. MAY moved to amend the amendment form is a very plain one. It is to frame a Conof the gentleman from Franklin, (Mr. Berry,) stitution to the best of our ability, and then subby adding the following words: "Under such mit it to the people. This, it appears to me. is restrictions and qualifications, however, as they all which we have to do. I conceive it is no may deem necessary." part of our duty to evade the decision, amongst Mr. COLFAX inquired whether the amend- ourselves, of any question. We are sent here ment must not necessarily lie over one day. to decide these very questions, and it is not inThe amendment, he said, was imperative in its cumbent on us to submit with the Constitution, terms-the resolution was not. a string of questions, to be also separately voted The PRESIDENT. There is a rule requir- upon by the people. ing imperative resolutions to lie over one day, I suppose, Mr. President, that our new Conbut, when a proposition, whether it be impera- stitution will contain some provision for its futive or otherwise, is taken up and acted upon by ture amendment, at such times and as often as the Convention, the rule ceases to apply. the people desire to amend it, and that too withThe question being on the amendment to the out the expense and labor of a Convention, examendment, pressly assembled for that purpose. If such be Mr. MAY said, that he regretted that the gen- the case-if such a provision be ingrafted upon tleman from St. Joseph (Mr. Colfax) had thought it, then, sir, I will say that I hardly believe it proper to introduce the original resolution, i possible that this Convention will frame a Conwhich, together with the amendment, had now i stitution which the people will vote to reject. 245 They will see in that one provision, as I clearly for it is only too clearly to be seen that this see it, a germ from which will spring sufficient Convention have already determined that the good to finally overpower and destroy so much negro shall never vote in the State of Indiana. of evil as the Constitution may elsewhere con- To that decision I of course submit; but, sir, I tain. For these reasons, I shall vote against hesitate not to say, that it does not accord with submitting any separate and distinct questions my notions of right. to the people. M r. President, I hold to this doctrine-I beBut, Mr. President, another question, entirely lieve this to be true: Either the negro is a distinct from this, has been sprung upon us by man constituted like ourselves by nature, or else the amendment which the gentleman from he is only an animal-a mere brute. If the Franklin (Mr. Berry) has seen fit to offer, and negro be but the mere brute, then, sir, let us that is the question of negro suffrage-the right treat him as one in all respects. Let us treat of the negro to vote at all. Upon this question, him as men treat him in the slave-holding I suppose, from what I both see and hear, that States. There we know men both class and I differ otoo coelo from a large majority of the treat him as other brutes. There the laws desmembers of this Convention. I differ, at any ignate him as a chattel-as mere personal rate, with every man who has thus far spoken property. Let us also efface the divine stamp on the question. Every man who has thus far of immortality and the evidences of manhood spoken has been careful to announce that he from his features, and write, yes, brand the would not vote to give to the negro the right of word, "chattel' upon his brow. Let us at suffrage in this State. I, sir, however, think it least be consistent. Letus declare him subject is the duty of this Convention, so far as it can to our control, and divest him by force, if need do so-certainly the duty of the people collect- be, of every human right, deny to him all right ively-to give to the negro this right of suffrage of liberty and property, and finish the task by under such restrictions as may, after a careful trampling to the dust his social as well as his view of the subject, seem,most wise and for the political rights. best. But if we decide that the negro is a manI know very well, Mr. President, that I am that he has the attributes of humanity-then broaching doctrine unpopular in this house. I let us for our own sake, if not for his, for con-.do not forget, sir, that no longer ago than yes- sistency's sake, ever recognize him as a man terday, upon the floor of this chamber, it was and treat him as a man. repeatedly by one gentleman demanded, in a Now, sir, it does not follow that because we tone rather more triumphant than I like to hear recognize the African as a man, as belonging in such a deliberative body as this, " is there a to the human species, that therefore we must delegate in this Convention who dare avow him- at once bestow upon him all the privileges, soself in favor of negro suffrage!" And from cial and political, which we bestow upon other the fact that no member then rose to his feet in men. We recognize all those foreigners from response, the gentleman may really have sup- the old world, who are thronging to our shores, posed that no member dared to avow that he as men. We acknowledge the German, the held sentiments presumed to be so unpopular. Swede, and others as component parts of the But, Mr. President, let me ask-and, sir, I do it same human family to which we belong. We in a spirit of courtesy, not wishing to give of- do not, however, make them inmates of our fence-permit me to ask, I say, of the gentle- families, nor at once bestow upon them the man propounding that singular inquiry, "who elective franchise as soon as they touch our constituted him the catechizer of this Conven- soil. But we do give them a cordial welcome tion 3 By what rule does he thus rise in his to this land of freedom. We then say to them, place, and in such a peculiar manner order the " acquire a knowledge of our language, our ye.s and nays of this body, that he may ascer- laws and our institutions-satisfy us that you tain the sentiments of its members! " Sir, I appreciate the political blessings that we endesire to say in this place, and say it distinctly, joy-that you will be safe depositories of the too, that I am neither his nor any other gentle- elective franchise-and then you shall enjoy all man's catechumen, neither here nor elsewhere. the political rights we possess." And, sir, I deny that either he or any other And so, sir, say I in regard to the negro race. gentleman has the right thus to propound ques- I contend that it is due to the African and to tions and to infer from my silence what are ourselves, to declare under what circumstances, my views upon any subject within the range of and coupled with what restrictions, they shall the discussions of this Convention. enjoy the rights and privileges of men. I have said, sir, that under certain restrictions. My own knowledge of the negro race is not with certain qualifications, I would give the great, I confess; though, be it great or small, it colored man the right to vote. I am not now has been acquired by a residence as well in a prepared to say what these restrictions should siaveholding as in a non-slaveholding State. be. I do not desire now to tell this Conven- But were it even greater than it is, I have too tion under what circumstances the negro shall humble an estimate of my own abilities-I be allowed to vote. It would be but labor lost, think too little of my own political discernI think1 too lIttle of myon oiticaisen 246 ment, to willingly say what qualifications should! above his present degraded sphere. We albe prescribed, and what restrictions imposed ready allow him the privilege of supporting upon this class of our population, to which they our government by paying his taxes with the must submit before they can be recognized as rest. Gentlemen see no danger in that. Then citizens with political rights and franchises. let us grant him the right to vote, and thus But I know that in one State of this Union., participate in the government which he asone standing, too, among the foremost, if she is sists to support. Confer upon him the elective not herself the first, I know that there the ne- franchise-first surrounding it with all necesgro has had the elective franchise conferred up- sary restrictions; insist on a property qualifion him under a property qualification. I con- cation if you please-require attainment to a fess, that, for my own part, I think very little of mature age; insist that he shall know how to such a qualification, and I do not instance it to read and write; add other qualifications if you recommend its adoption. I have instanced the deem them necessary, but still, if you would example of New York in order to show gentle- make him other than that degraded being which men that there that has been done which I say you say he is, under some circumstances or should be done elsewhere. I have done it to other, put within his reach this great privilege. call the attention of gentlemen whose observa- I do not know, Mr. President, but that I tion seems never to have extended beyond the shall be misunderstood in these few remarks. assumed fact that negro suffrage is unpopular I certainly do not wish to be. I am not, where in Indiana, to the fact that other and abler I am known, deemed an abolitionist, as that men than myself-men recognized by all as term has come to be understood. Neither, sir, statesmen-have held the opinions which I have am I a free-soiler, at least I am not enough of advanced, and that other, and perhaps greater one to have ever received many free-soil votes; and more far-seeing States than Indiana, have and I have frequently encountered active opdeemed it the part of wisdom as well as of position from the free-soii party. But, sir, justice, under certain restrictions, to enfranchise though this be the case, still I shall never shrink the negro. from uttering my conviction that there is much And, sir, in thus restricting the exercise of truth in the principles of the free-soil party, the elective franchise, we are guilty of no in- and, sir, I know that many members of that consistency. We not only refuse at once to party conscientiously adhere to them. It enfranchise the foreigner when he lands from seems to me that I should be recreant to the the emigrant ship, but we have thrown about cause of humanity were I to sit silently in my our own selves certain restrictions, and have seat and allow such sentiments as have been imposed certain qualifications. We say, for promulgated upon this floor to go unanswered example, that no man shall exercise the right and uncontradicted. Sir, when the gentleman of suffrage until he has attained the age of from St. Joseph (Mr. Colfax) introduced his twenty-one years. This is all right and proper. resolution, I did hope that it would have been Now, I do not profess to thoroughly know the received in the same spirit in which it was ofcapacities of the negrorace. I know but little fered. But it was not so received. The digof their mental or social development. There- nified and proper spirit in which the resolution fore, I will not say that at the age of twenty- was presented was not reciprocated. A very one years the black man can be made sufficiently different spirit was at once displayed. I regret well informed of the laws and institutions of to see that there exists here a very decided disthis country, and of the responsibilities and du- position to crush every expression of sympathy ties of the citizen to make him a safe reposito- for the negro race, and I have sometimes fanry of this trust. But I say, that if the black cied I saw a disposition in this Hall to crush to man has not intelligence and discretion enough the ground every man who ventured to give utat the age of twenty-one, to make him worthy terance to such sympathy. I hope I am mistakthe exercise of the elective franchise, then ex- en. But against all manifestations of such a tend the prescribed age to thirty-one, or forty- feeling I have risen to protest, and I do it none one, or, if need be, to ninety-one. (Much the less earnestly because I seem to stand laughter.) Draw the line somewhere. Let it alone. be at the most suitable and proper age, whether Mr. READ of Clark saidit be fixed early or late in life. Mr. PRESIDENT: I have listened wvith much There are other qualifications which may be interest to the remarks just made by the genmentioned in this connection. As, for exam- tleman from Steuben, (Mr. May,) and have a pie, literary or educational attainments. Gen- few remarks to offer -n reply. tlemen tell us that the negro race is a degraded I also have a great sympathy for the negro and inferior one. I admit that this is true. I race, and I am disposed to exercise every deacknowledge that, as a people, they are far be- gree of courtesy and attention to every subject low the Anglo-Saxon race, both in point of in- and to every proposition for the amelioration of telligence and social refinement. Then, sir, let their social condition. But, sir, representing a us prove our superiority by assisting, or rather constituency which has a stronger feeling, perour magnanimity by allowing, the negro to rise haps, than any other in the State against the 247 enfranchisement or even the immigration into very small minority. But while I respect the the State, of negroes, I cannot be silent until I feelings of other gentlemen and of their con-'have briefly given the reason why I shall vote stituents, I must be allowed the same freedom against conferring upon the colored population to express my own and to represent the views tof the State the right of suffrage. and feelings of the people whom I have the Self-defence, sir, is the first law of our na- i honor to represent here. I do not know how ture. Every instinct of our being demands that it would suit the people of some of the norththis adage should be recognized. What is our ern counties of the State to have negro sufsituation inthe State of Indianal We are sur- frage granted, but I tell gentlemen that my rounded by slave States and consequently have, constituents would feel themselves very much and are always liable to have a constant immi- degraded and grossly insulted to be asked to gration from those States both of fugitive slaves electioneer among negroes at their polls. and of free persons of color. Slaveholders are Not to detain the Convention with any lengthalways anxious to get rid of their old, decrepit, ened remarks, I will conclude by saying that, and superannuated slaves, and they are also viewing the matter as I do, I shall support a anxious to be freed from the presence of the proposition prohibiting negroes from emigrating free blacks. Hence it is natural that both these into the State; and shall oppose any proposition classes should cross the Ohio River from Ken- to bestow upon them the right of suffrage. tucky, and settle in this State as well as in Mr. STEVENSON. Mr. PRESIDENT: As Ohio. this debate is upon a subject upon which every What has Kentucky done, sirl The Con- citizen in the State is interested, and the result.stitutional Convention which was held in that is watched for with anxiety in all parts of IndiState last fall provided that if any free negro ana, I wish to occupy the time of the Convenshould emigrate to that State he should be lia- tion a few minutes, while I shall very briefly ble to be tried for felony, and the punishment give my reasons for the vote I should cast upon provided is confinement at hard labor in the a proposition to prohibit all persons of color penitentiary. from emigrating into the State hereafter, and It is also provided that if any slave shall be also prohibiting any future Legislature from emancipated, and he does not immediately bestowing upon uhe negroes the elective franthereafter leave the State, he is liable to be chise. treated as a felon and to be confined in the I am willing to acknowledge, sir, that the.State Prison. white race are under some obligations to the It is well known that, in slaveholding States, black race in this country. They occupy an.all the old, unserviceable, and superannuated inferior social condition; they are much degraded; negroes are set free, that their masters may not it is the duty of a wise and humane people to have to support them when they have ceased work for the elevation of such a race. The.to be any longer serviceable or productive. The people of the United States can have no interlaws being stringent against their remaining in est in degrading and sinking lower in the scale those States, as a matter of course they flock of being, the black race; but the question is, here. Now what I say is, that we should stand can they be elevated so much as to be on an upon the natural right of self-defence-we equality with the white race, politically as well should, in order to protect ourselves, enact as socially. Have they the natural capacity stringent laws, or insert a clause in the new for such an elevation, and is it compatible with Constitution prohibiting the future emigration the best interests of the white race that the of blacks into this State. negro should live in its midst upon such terms? It appears to me, sir, that there are but three For one, Mr. President, I frankly confess I do courses left open for the people of Indiana to pur- not believe in the possibility of such an elevasue with regard to the negro population of the tion being compatible with the safety and best.State. interests of the Anglo-Saxon race. The first is, amalgamation-aye, sir, I repeat There is a marked, an apparent, and an unit, amalgamation. mistakeable inferiority, both as to physical The second is, to give up the State to the and mental qualities in the African race. Now possession and rule of the black population. I contend it it is once conceded that you can The third is, to prohibit the immigration of never elevate the negro to an exact equality negroes to the State, to give no encouragement with the whites in this country-an equality to those that are here that they can ever enjoy which shall extend to all social, and to all poequal social or political privileges, and keep the litical privileges-the right to hold an office as State for ourselves and our descendants. well as the right to vote, you will never be able Mr. President, I do not hesitate to say that I to do the negro any real good in this country. am for the latter course as a choice of the three. The result of this conclusion, to which I believe [Consent, consent!] There should he no feel- that all must arrive, is, that the only remedy left ing about this matter; we should be courteous open for this greatest evil in our midst, is to be and forbearing towards those who differ from found in colonizing the negroes in their native us on this question, although they may be in a Africa. This is not only the exclusive remedy, 248 it is not only the last resort of a people seeking nego the right of suffrage, are actuated by the' to relieve themselves of a low and degraded black noblest feelings of our nature-I respect such. population, but it is eminently practical and the exalted sentiments of justice and humanity.. very best thing that can be done for their good, But at the same time I look upon the subject as well as our own. Colonize them in Africa, in an entirely different light, and conceive that where they are surrounded only by their equals, those gentlemen do not sufficiently take into governed by a man of their own color and race, consideration the really practical part of the and allowed a free participation in all the insti- subject, and do not sufficiently weigh the facts tutions and privileges of society and govern- I have presented. Notwithstanding all you ment. can do for them, the blacks are still a degraded Look, sir, for a single moment at the condition and inferior race. The single distinction of of that most unfortunate people in this country. color must of itself alone keep up an eternal You will, after a careful view, be convinced, distinction between the two races. not only of their physical and mental inferiority I am well aware that the blacks of this counbut the impossibility of the two races commin- try are almost universally opposed to leaving gling and living together on terms of equality. this country, and emigrating to Liberia, but it is The careful observer must also be convinced that because they are ignorant of their real interests. if the good of the black race, as well as the They are not capable of taking a comprehenwhite, is to be consulted, the former should be sive and practical view of their degraded posicolonized. tion in this country, and measuring the vast adI maintain that it is highly impolitic for a re- vantage of colonizing in a land, whose climatefined and superior class to keep in their midst and position is naturally suited to them, and an uncultivated, a degraded, and inferior race. where they can live upon terms of perfect equalBecausethe natural tendency has been proven ity with all around them; that there they by experience, not to be elevation of the degraded, may lay the foundations of a nation of their but the deterioration, the lowering, of the better own, and, unobstructed by the presence of a class, towards the standard of the inferior class. powerful and superior race,improve their social The past has shown us that as the blacks in- and mental condition, and elevate themselves to crease in number,the disturbance between them a respectable, if not an equal place among the and their white neighbors increase. As the nations of the world. blacks feel their strength, whether in numbers To the institution of slavery I am opposed, in cr in the grant of greater privileges, they are every light in which it can be viewed, and I disposed to abuse them instead of being discreet have been opposed to it ever since I first began and modest, and makingiuse of those privileges to think of it. And I would be foremost in e'to make themselves more intelligent and re- forts to help and assist them to elevate themfined, and thus more agreeable to the dominant selves in this country, but I have been for a long race. time convinced that they are, and always must This being the case, the doctrine which I be, unhappy whilst living in the midst of the maintain and am prepared with all my humble whites. They are despised in their social repowers to prove, is, that the people of Indiana lations, and cheated in their business transactshould hold out no inducements, whatever, to ions. They have not the intellect to protect the negroes to settle and remain in the State, themselves from the white people, and, in fact, by'granting privileges and franchises, or in en- they are but little better off here than In couraging them that they ever will be allowed slavery. any more, if indeed they are allowed the exer- I ask gentlemen to look around this city or cise of as many rights as they now have. Yes, Indianapolis, and examine the character and Mr. President, the language that the represent- situation of the black population here, where atives of the people of Indiana should hold to they have an opportunity of making property if the black race is, emigrate, emigrate to your they will, and then tell me if the very best native country. They should all be sent to thing that can be done with them, and for them,. Liberia, or some other part ofAfrica. I believe is not to send them to Liberia. And to have that they have intelligence enough to build up the proper effect upon the colored population, a successful community on the shores of they should be told from this chamber, by the their native Continent, and to govern them- voices of the people assembled, in the persons selves. I delieve that they would not only be of their delegates, that they must emigrate to happy and prosperous there, but that such a Liberia, and that they need hope for no extensettlement would be a grand beginning for the sion of political privileges, and no amelioration Christianizing and civilizing the now benighted of their present condition in Indiana. But, sir, and barbarous continent of Africa. so long as delusive hopes are cherished of their I look upon the black race with sincere feel- being favored, so long as efforts are made by a ings of pity, and I have no feeling or antipathy certain class in their behalf, so long will the against those who advocate the propriety of negroes look upon this as their home, and clambestowing upon them the elective franchise. I or for protection and political privileges. believe that gentlemen who propose to give the My own experience teaches me that they have 249 been but very little, if at all benefitted, by being decided majority against the proposition, as in freed from slavery. Indeed, you will confer no this case, I can see no necessity for submitting real and lasting favor upon this class of our the question. I know that it is urged by some, population until you provide for their emigra- that a submission of the question to the people tion to their native Africa, where they can all would be calculated to allay excitement. But live upon terms of equality-one negro with an- I think differently. I think it would be calcuother. But send them from among the white lated to keep up excitement. I believe, sir, that race, because so long as they are with them, they amongst all who have appeared here as the adcan never prosper. vocates of this resolution, not one of them has They should never be allowed to amalgamate avowed himself willing to vote for negro sufwith the white race, and no statesman should frage at the polls. Even the gentleman from ever favor any measure, the indirect result of Jay, (Mr. Hawkins,) after a most elaborate dewhich will be amalgamation between the races. fense of the resolution, in the conclusion of his Any encouragement given them to remain here, remarks gave us to understand, that, at the polls, either by allowing them free emigration into the he would vote against it. After all the argument State, or conferring upon them additional po- which he made to show why this question should litical privileges will have this effect, because be submitted, it seemed to be comprehended in if the blacks stay in this country, there will this-to grant to him the pleasure of voting always be amalgamation. I want none of this; against it. It is true, that, if this question I want Indiana and this country peopled, pos- should not be separately presented, it might insessed, and governed by a pure white race. It duce opposition to the new Constitution, on the is degrading to the feelings of every American, part of all those ten thousand voters, to which and I confess I am pained to see in the streets, allusion has been made, because they could not the evidences of amalgamation which every have the privilege of voting for negro suffrage. where meet the eye. But I cannot think that would be the case; beIn conclusion, Mr. President, I will repeat cause thIy would not better themselves by fallwhat I have before said-let us in this Conven- ing back'upon the old Constitution. tion, pursue such a policy and adopt such meas- [ should think, sir, that the friends of freeures as will have the effect to induce the negro soilism here should vote for a provision in the not to remain in this country, but to emigrate Constitution prohibiting negroes from settling back to his native Africa. There they can live in the State, for it is the manifest policy of the and prosper-they can introduce civilization and State not to encourage their immigration; and; perhaps do for Africa what the Anglo Saxon besides, the negro race never can be elevated race has done for America. to an equality with the white race, either soThese are the considerations which will in- cially or politically. If they might be elevatedduce me to vote against the resolution intro- politically, they could not be so morally and duced by the gentleman from St. Joseph (Mr. socially. Sir, I desire that the State of IndiColfax.) In voting against that resolution, and ana should be a free-soil State, emphaticallyin carrying out the policy I have advocated, I that every one of her citizens may enjoy equal believe I am acting for the best interests of the rights and privileges; and if we do not take this black race as well as the white race. course of exclusion, as fast as the negroes shall Mr. GRAHAM of Warwick. I intended, on be worn out in the service of Southern masters, Saturday, to make a few remarks upon this sub- they will be run into this State, not to enjoy ject, and I feel myself disposed this morning, to equal privileges as our citizens, but to remain as carry out that intention. The resolution of the paupers. There are some negroes here already, gentleman from St. Joseph (Mr. Colfax) propos- and if we should incorporate into our organic es to direct the committee on elective franchise law no prohibitory provision of this kind, it to enquire into the propriety of submitting the would be an inducement tor more to immigrate. question to the people of Indiana, whether they The State of Ohio has already began to feel will enfranchise the negroes. To this resolu- the effects of the policy which they have been tion an amendment was offered by the gentle- pursuing with reference to this very subject, man from Franklin, (Mr. Berry,) instructing the and I have no doubt that their new Constitucommittee to report a proposition extending to tion will show this, by a clause prohibiting nenegroes the privilege of voting. Another com- gro immigration. mittee had already reported a proposition, for- It seems to be the policy of the gentleman on bidding negro immigration and the right of ne- my right (Mr. Stevenson) to take back this un — groes t6 hold real estate. Now, if both of these fortunate race to the country from whence they propositions should be adopted by the Conven- came, which may be well enough as far as it may tion it would be doing and undoing at the same be found practicable. But nature has made a time. I do not deny that the Convention has broad distinction between the white and the the power to submit this question, but I do think black races, which could not be overcome. And it would be impolitic to do so, where there can if we cannot understand the reason for this disbe no doubt as to how the question would be tinctinction, should we, therefore, attempt to decided by the people. Where there is such a counteract or destroy it? These were some of 250 the reasons why he should vote against the propo- of forbearance, it would have a sure tendency sition of the gentleman from Franklin, and to allay excitement amongst the abolitionists of against every proposition for the encourage- the North, however ultra they may be. And, ment of negro immigration, or for the establish- on the contrary, if we should reject every thing ment of negro suffrage. which may be presented by those who would Mr. CRUMBACKER- represent their wishes, such a course on the MR. PRESIDENT: It does seem to me that part of this body would raise such a storm of gentlemen are expending much thunder prema- excitement as would pass all over the State, turely upon this matter. The question is, pure- and perhaps result in the defeat of the new Conly, whether the resolution shall be submitted to stitution. Hence, I contend that it is expedithe committee authorizing them to make inqui- ent for us all, who would seek to save the new ry into the propriety of submitting the question Constitution from rejection, to treat with forof negro suffrage to the people. Such should bearance and respect the opinions of that porbe the limit of this whole argument; but, this tion of our fellow-citizens who believe in the morning, gentlemen have gone on to argue the doctrine of universal suffrage. Gentlemen may propriety of entirely prohibiting the blacks be assured that if they spurn the opinions of from settling and holding property in the State. this portion of our citizens, they will raise a'That question, also, will be met in proper time, feeling of excitement in the bosom of every but it is most clearly irrelevant now. Moreo- man of them, which will burn, not only against *ver, is it the province of this Convention to dis- our action in this matter, but prejudice their cuss the question where the black race can minds materially against every thing which we flourish best, and under what form of govern- may do. ment they could most enjoy the rights of free- I desire to make a few remarks with refermen? I might be ready and willing to discuss ence to certain language which was applied to these questions, but I cannot conceive that it is this party on Saturday, by some gentleman upon either the province or the business of this Con- this floor. Not having been in my seat very vention to continue a discussion which involves long, it is impossible for me to know either the nothing more than an inquiry into the benefits counties or the names of members; but the deand blessing of the Colonization Society, and nunciation or the assertion to which I refer, atthe advantages which ought to be set before the tracted my attention, and although I cannot Africans in this country, to induce them to col- recollect who gave out the expression, I recolonize. lect its language very well. It was a denunThe gentleman who was last upon the floor, ciation of the free-soil party as a poor, miseraif I mistake not, made an error in reference to ble faction, which deserved only to be greeted the committee which reported last Saturday, by with sneers and contempt. confounding that committee with the committee Mr. DOBSON (interposing). If the gentleto which the gentleman from St. Joseph has di- man refers to my language, I made no allusion rected his resolution. to the free-soil party; my allusion was to the Mr. GRAHAM (interposed here and explain- abolition party, if he will note the difference. ing) said, he referred merely to the inconsist- Mr. CRUMBACKER. I am perfectly satency of sending this imperative resolution to the isfied with the explanation; but I am still concommittee on the elective franchise, with the strained to say that the language, when applied reported proposition prohibiling negro immi- to the old abolition or liberty party, must still gration. be both offensive and unjust, for, from my own Mr. CRUMBACKER (continuing). The knowledge of a great many persons belonging gentleman from St. Joseph has directed his res- to that party, I can testify for them to their reolution to the committee on the elective fran- spectability and sterling worth. They are an chise. With regard to the merits of this reso- honor to their country; they are devoted to our lution I have but very little to say. I do not institutions and to the Union; and they are think this the proper time to discuss the ques- not so ultra in their views as to wish to dissolve tion of negro suffrage. The question is simply, the Union, merely to carry out their principles..shall the resolution be referred? The gentle- No, sir, but they will hold on to that governman asks for this, and appeals to the magna- ment which approximates nearest their idea of nimity of the Convention, and I hope his appeai universal suffrage and universal right to life, will not be made in vain. My reason for ex- liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They pressing this hope is simply this: from the are not so factious in their nature as that it knowledge I have of a great portion of the lib- should be thought of them they would destroy erty party in this State, I am satisfied that this the fundamental principles of government; but, course will be the best which can be adopted to on the contrary, they are men of benevolence, allay the existing excitement upon this ques- truthfulness, and patriotism. And it is not untion, especially in the counties which I repre- frequently the case that those who denounce.sent. I speak with the certainty of knowledge them the loudest at some times, at other times when I say that if this proposition were to be will pay the highest compliment to them, wherreported and acted upon here with some degree ever the faction happens to be strong, and 251 wherever their votes can be thereby secured. and ask that the negro race shall be placed upon But not to occupy time, I will conclude by ex- an equal footing with the citizen, and call thempressing again the hope that the resolution will selves respectable? I affirm that there is nothbe referred to the committee; that this appeal ing respectable about such a course. I envy -to the courtesy and magnanimity of the Con- not the respectability of such a party. If it mention may not be in vain, so that it may be could be shown that, by any action of this Connmanifest to free-soilers and abolitionists through- vention, the moral and social condition of the out the State, that the Convention, as a body, black race could be elevated to an equality with is not disposed to spurn their opinions with con- that of the white race, then I could accord some tempt. degree of respect to the course pursued by this Mr. EDMONSTON. I had not intended to party. But the distinction between these rasay any thing, and should not, but for the charge ces has been made by the God of Nature. The'that the majority here have not acted upon this black race has been marked and condemned to question with proper courtesy. But so far from servility, by the decree of Omnipotence; and'this being the case, I shall endeavor to show should feeble man claim to erase from them the that the lack of courtesy upon this question rests leprosy which God has placed upon them? I chiefly upon the part of the minority. It will am speaking of facts; I shall not attempt to look'be recollected that early in the session petitions after causes; but every man must admit that and memorials upon this subject were received, if you guarantee equal rights with yourselves to appropriately referred, and reported upon; the the black race, that condition cannot long conjudgment of the Convention being recorded that tinue. Either you must surrender to them or it was inexpedient for them to act upon the they must sur;ender to you-they must rule or question. Sir, if gentlemen who advocate this you must rule-such is their nature. resolution were desirous only of making an is- That I was glad the gentleman from Franksue upon the question, that was the time for lin had offered his amendment, as itwould bring them to have made it, and to have recorded their gentlemen to a distinct vote, and we would see votes in opposition to the report of the commit- how many were in favor of negro suffrage; for tee. But not a word was said. A few days my part, I envy not the respectability of any ago, a resolution was offered similar to that man who is willing to throw himself in the ~upon your table; and an amendment being pro- scale and balance of Government with a buGk posed, completely nullifying the object of the negro. proposition, the yeas and nays were demanded I trust, then, to hear no more complaints and accorded to them upon the adoption of the about being treated with discourtesy, on the amendment, which was carried by a very decid- part of gentleman who have only wanted the'ed majority. Was this acting discourteous on opportunity to vote. I trust, also, that the'the part of the majorityl Certainly not. But whole subject will be voted down, and the questhen, after this, they come in and contend that tion put to rest; and that no fire-brand will if their ten thousand voters are not conciliated hereafter be cast in here for the purpose of sethey will go against the amended Constitution; curing votes for the acceptance of the new Conbut this threat has no terrors for me, so long as stitution. I do not impugn the motives of genthe alternative is that I shall agree to submit to tlemen, for I trust that every member is actuathe people the question of placing a buck ne- ted by a higher principle than that. I would gro upon an equality with a white man! Sir, I resign my seat before I would pander to any ask, in all candor, whether it is courteous for such factious influence. Let all the adherents these eight or ten thousand to continue to har- of faction return to the fold from whence they rass the majority, from year to year, and from strayed, for so long as our deliberative bodies, day to day, upon this subject, and then to ask our Conventions, and our Legislatures, shall for the adoption of conciliatory measures for the continue to foster and consider their pretenpurpose of procuring their votes upon some im- sions, and gratify their demands, for the sake of portant questionS I trust, sir, that this is not votes, so long our Government will be distractthe course that will be pursued here. ed and convulsed from one end of the land to It has been charged that the adherents of this the other. party, in the State, have been called a faction. Mr. KILGORE. As I understand the quesWell, sir, I confess that I can look upon them tion, the gentleman from Franklin (Mr. Berry) in no other light. Look at the course pursued proposes, so to amend the resolution, as to by them in the organization of the last House make it the duty of the committee to report of Representatives in the Congress of the Uni- a section extendingto the negroes the right ted States. Did not their course there evince of suffrage; and the gentleman from Steuben a resolution that they must rule or ruin-that (Mr. May ) proposes to modify this amendment they would sink the government or carry their by adding these words: "with such restrictions pointsl Is it reasonable that this small minori- or qualifications as they may see proper." Genty should rule the government of the United tlemen who are favorable to the amendment of Statesl Or should not such conduct be con- the member from Franklin, could certainly have'demned and despised? Yet they come up here j no objection to this modification, unless they 252 would allow to the negro the right of suffrage here may deny to negroes the right of petition. without qualification: gentlemen, also, who white men may agitate and petition as much are opposed to the whole principle of the res- as they please. But these are a set of factionolution, should it be adopted, could not object ists, (in the language of my friend from Dubois,) to the last amendment. Those, also, who are who are entitled to no sympathies here and should in favor of the right of negroe suffrage, could ask for none, because, they are willing to place not object that the Legislature should have the themselves upon an equality with negroes. I power of adding to the extension of this right will ask that gentleman, if he was not himself to the negroes, such qualifications as they may once an advocate for the right of petition on the see proper. part of negroes 3 This is the question to which I shall direct Mr. EDMONSTON. That was before Mr. attention. I shall not travel out of the way for Van Buren had fallen from grace. the purpose of attacking either minorities or Mr. KILGORE. Aye, sir, the gentleman majorities. The last gentleman up, spoke of a was once in favor of giving to the negroes not minority, without indicating clearly to what only the right of suffrage and all the rights of minority he alluded. Surely, the gentleman citizenship, but he was, at one time, one of the could not have addressed himself to a whig mi- most ardent supporters of the pretensions of a nority, for I find some whig members over the free soil man to the highest office in this Union. way, advocating the same doctrine with the gen- The free soil party was just following in the tleman from Dubois. wake of the New York politicians of 1848; and Mr. EDMONSTON (interposing). I alluded from this the gentleman, perhaps, may draw a to the advocates of the right of negro suffrage. distinction between the free soil party and aboliMr. KILGORE (continuing). This ques- tionism. The free soil party were mere followtion would not have been agitated, but for the ers after the doctrine which was long before unother-that embraced in the report of the com- derstood in New York. Mr. Van Buren was mittee on rights and privileges. Those members denounced because he allowed himself to be who are surrounded at home by factious aboli- nominated by the free soil party for the Presitionists, as they are termed by the gentleman, dency, as though he had changed his principles; were disposed to let the Constitutional provision yet, the principles of the Buffalo Platform were remain as it now stands; and gentlemen of those by which he had been governed all his the majority have shown themselves to be the life. But then it was that many of the Demoagitators. They were unwilling to let the Con- cratic party, for the first time, were heard to destitutional provision remain as it is. They in- nounce him. troduced the proposition, excluding negroes from But at this time there was a strife between coming into the civil compact, and tying up the the two great parties, dividing the State, which hands of the Legislature, so that they shall, should be the most ultra upon the subject of free at no time,have the power to ameliorate the civil soilism. Both parties came together in concondition of this unfortunate race. Who, then, vention, the two conventions met successively appears to be against excitement and agita- in this building, and they were both charged tion. There is nothing in the present Consti- with having stolen all the thunder of the Buffatution, to prevent the negroes from enjoying the lo convention. But as soon as the election right of suffrage. The Legislature has always was over the charm had passed away, and it was had the power to extend this right, either with a time for parties to change ground, and for the or without qualification. gentleman from Dubois to dissolve the banns of Mr. EDMONSTON (interposing). The rea- matrimony into which he had entered; but I son I advocate the report, to which the gentle- suppose it was not because he could charge the man refers, is, that the question may be settled free soil party with having failed to carry out at once; in order that the Legislature may not any of the terms of the compact. Sir, I obcontinue to be harrassed with petitions upon the ject to any divorce in a case where the union subject. has been so cordially formed. Mr. KILGORE (continuing). Yes, sir. But I merely refer to this for the purpose of But I do not know that there has been any agi- showing that some gentlemen, who have no tation upon the subject of abolitionism, for the sympathies with the negro, seem to have forLegislature to encounter, for several years past. gotten their former acts and associations. I believe there has not been a single application I suppose no gentleman would desire to place to the Legislature for negro suffrage. There himself upon an equality with the negro; nor is has been an application or two, by way of peti- it assumed by any that the negro race is not intion, for negroes to be permitted to testify in ferior. But, sir, I object to the intimation that courts of justice, which hardly passed from the the negro race is inferior by nature. Give them hands of the Clerk, before they were laid per- the proper training, and, my word for it, they manently upon the table. But, sir, the people will exhibit as much talent and enterprise as have a right to agitate this, as well as any other any class of beings upon God's footstool. question. They have a right to discuss any Gentlemen contend that the condition of the question they please. Although gentlemen African race has been bettered by placing them 258 in bondage;and-if thatbe true, how much more were condemned, in four cases out of five, by could we do for them by holding out induce- designing white men. I have alittleexperience ments to them to acquire property and cultivate in judicial proceedings, which enables me to say their mindsl This, sir, will be one of the great that out of six or seven hundred blacks in my reasons, which, (if it ever ought to be done,) county, there never has been a single instance will be most likely to prevail, for extending to of crime among them, which has been punished them the elective franchise, and this, also, should by imprisonment in the State Prison. Still, be one of the reasons by which I myself might this circumstance would not be a sufficient reasbe induced, perhaps, to be in favor of a proper- on to induce me to vote for giving them the ty qualification and a good English education, right of suffrage; and this may be a matter of to constitute a voter, for we have this race prejudice upon my part, and time may cure it. amongst us, and we know not how to get rid of Therefore, I am desirous of leaving this an open them. question, so that if my mind shall undergo a I desire to be distinctly understood, that I am change, with the minds of others, I may vote not in favor of negro suffrage myself, but I am to extend this right. And I will say to my willing to leave the question open to the peo- friend over the way, (Mr. Edmonston,) that he, pie, where the old Constitution left it, so that, too, may find it convenient to look over this if, at any subsequent day, they shall find it to question again, in one or two years, when there their interest so to do, the people shall have will probably come round another scramble for the right to extend the suffrage to the negro, abolition votes. All I ask of this body is to with such restrictions as the case should sug- leave this question open to the people, and let gest and require. And one of them, as I think, us have a fair field fight for the result, whensoshould connect this right, indissolubly on their ever the time should come for the contest. part, with the acquisition of property. If the amendment of the gentleman from There is no man here, I presume, who de- Franklin is to be adopted, I hope the amendsires to place himself upon an equality with the ment of the gentleman from Steuben will be negro; but what shall we dot If we find them adopted also; if the former is to be adopted into illiterate, should that be an excuse for us to turn the Constitution, I desire the latter to go with our backs upon them? We could easily find it; and I should vote against the former without thousands of white men in our country equally the latter. If the right of suffrage is to be aldegraded and equally ignorant. Why not turn lowed to the negro, I want that the Legislature our backs upon them, instead of admitting them should prescribe restrictions and qualifications. to vote and hold office, after a residence in the Mr. KENT said, it must appear evident to State for a single year, regardless of any claim this Convention that this question has taken a to a good name? Let me ask you, sir, if there wide range of discussion; much wider than the were a hundred negroes in this State, and nine- rseolution and pending amendments, under the ty of the number were better calculated to give enforcement of strict parliamentary law, would a righteous vote upon any subject, than one out warrant. And believing that each member of of a thousand of the foreigners who have been the Convention has made up his mind upon the in the State for two years, would you not as question under discussion, and for the purpose soon admit to the polls these ninety negroes, of facilitating the business of this body, I call as the foreigners? [Several voices-"no! no!"] the previous question. Yet it would be an outrage upon republicanism And there was a second. to say that these foreigners should not vote un- The PRESIDENT said, the first question til they had acquired the power to read and was upon the adoption of the amendment to write. A man then who has nofeeling in com- the amendment offered by the gentleman from non with us, who never felt the pulse of liber- Steuben, (Mr. May,) adding the words "under ty till he set foot upon our soil, such a man is such restrictions and qualifications, however, as to enjoy the opportunity and the right to vote they may deem necessary." and to hold office amongst us, whilst these rights Mr. PEPPER of Ohio. I wish to state are to be denied to the unfortunate black man, briefly the reasons which shall govern my vote. who has ten times more intelligence, and who The PRESIDENT. The gentleman cannot has lived in the State of Indiana from his birth! have that privilege however much he may deI don't mean to be understood as saying that I sire it. would vote against the suffrage of foreigners, The question was then taken upon the amendafter they had been here a sufficient length of ment to the amendment, and was rejected withtime. But I am only looking at the inconsist- out a division. ency of this course. The question recurring upon Mr. Berry's Permit me, sir, to refer to another fact. Look- amendment, the yeas and nays were demanded ing over the State at large, I find that there are and ordered. They were taken, and the Secrenot proportionably so many black men confined tary reported, yeas 1, nays 122, as follows: in the Penitentiary; and of the few blacks YEAS.-Mr. May. which have been so imprisoned, they have been NAYs.-Messrs. Alexander, Anthony, Barinstigated to commit the crime for which they bour, Bascom, Beach, Beard, Beeson, Berry. 254 Biddle, Blythe, Borden, Bourne, Bowers, Brack- Taylor, Trimbly, Watts, Wheeler, Work, and en, Bright, Bryant, Butler, Carr, Chandler, Mr. President-60. Chapman, Chenowith, Clark of Hamilton, Clark NAYS.-Messrs. Alexander, Barbour, Berry, of Tippecanoe, Coats, Cole, Colfax, Cookerly, Blythe, Bourne, Bowers, Butler, Clark of Tip. Crumbacker, Davis of Madison, Davis of Ver- Coats, Cookerly, Davis of Vermillion, Dick, million, Dick, Dobson, Dunn of Perry, Edmon- Dobson, Dunn of Perry, Edmonston, Farrow, ston, Farrow, Fisher, Foley, Frisbie, Garvin, Fisher, Frisbie, Gibson, Gootee, Graham of Gibson, Gootee, Gordon, Graham of Miami, Warrick, Haddon, Hall, Holliday, Helmer, HoGraham of Warrick, Haddon, Hall, Holliday, gin, Hovey, Huff, Kelso, Kendall of Warren, Hamilton, Harbolt, Hardin, Helm, Helmer, Hitt, Lockhart, Logan, Mathis, McLean, Miller of Hogin, Hovey, Howe, Huff, Johnson, Kelso, Clinton, Miller of Gibson, Moore, Morrison of Kent, Kendall of Wabash, Kendallof Warren, Marion, Morrison of Washington, Newman, Kilgore, Kinley, Lockhart, Logan, Maguire, Pepper of Crawford, Prather, Read of Clark, March, Mather, Mathis, McClelland, McFarland, Schoonover, Shannon, Sherrod, Shoup, Smiley, McLean, Miller of Clinton, Miller of Fulton, Snook, Spann, Stevenson, Tague, Tannehill, Miller of Gibson, Milroy, Moore, Morgan, Terry, Thomas, Thornton, Walpole, Wiley, Morrison of Marion, Morrison of Washing- Wolfe, Yocum, and Zenor-62. ton, Mowrer, Murray, Newman, Niles, Nof- So the resolution was rejected. singer, Owen, Pepper of Ohio, Pepper of Mr. Lockhart offered the following: Crawford, Pettit, Prather, Read of Clark, Read solved, That the Warden of the State Prisof Monroe, Ristine, Robinson, Schoonover, on be requested to furnish this Convention with Shannon, Sherrod, Shoup, Smiley, Snook, Smith a list of the number of persons confined in t of Ripley, Smith of Scott, Spann, Steele, Ste-Stae Prson since the organization of the tate venson, TaguLe, Tannehill, Taylor, Terry, government, the crime for which each was comThomas, Thornton Tmbly alolefo, Yo, Wattsnr mitted, the number of years each prisoner was Wheelerr, Wliley, Wolff e Work Yocum? enor5! sentenced to confinement in said prison, the and Mr. President-122. ~and Mr. Presid~ent-1. length of time each prisoner remained in prison,. So the amendment was rejected. whether any such prisoner was pardoned, and And the question then being upon the adop- if so, how soon after his or her term of servi — tion of the original resolution, offered by Mr. tude commenced, and the age of each convict. Colfax, the yeas and nays were again de- Mr. KELSO. A resolution similar to that manded and ordered. manded and ordered. $ ^has been before adopted, and I think that the Mr. PETTIT asked for the reading of the information, which is of a more comprehensive resolution. He said he believed this was a res- character than that called for by the resolution, olution of inquiry, and he was willing to allow just read, has been collected. every such resolution to be referred, as a matter LOCKHART. The resolution referred, of courtesy. of couSEVERAL VOICS. Rea d rd to extends over a period of but twelve years, SEVERAL VOICES. Read, read, re while this of mine goes back to the organiza — The resolution having been read by the Sec- tion of the State government. tion of the State government. retary - Mr. KELSO. What is the object of such a Mr. PETTIT continued: There could be no resolutionS resolution of inquiry, he said, although the same Mr. LOCKHART. It is to obtain informathing might be offered over and over again, for tion to be laid before the Convention, of the which he would not vote as a matter of court- age and sex, and other statistics of criminals, in esy, merely. He had only to say that he would order that we may judge of the necessity fornot vote for this resolution, as a distinct propo- another species of prison, an institution intersition; but he would not treat the mover with mediate from the county jail and the State'sthe discourtesy of refusing to order the refer- Prison-something like a House of Refuge. ence of a mere resolution of inquiry. Mr. REED of Clark. I presume the WarThe yeas and nays were then taken with the den of the Penitentiary could furnish the inforfollowing result, yeas 60, nays 62: mation desired, and I move to amend the resoYEAs.-Messrs. Anthony, Bascom, Beach, lution so as to call upon that officer for the inBeard, Beeson, Biddle, Borden, Bracken, Bright, formation sought. Bryant, Carr, Chandler, Chapman, Chenowith, Mr. LOCKHART accepted the amendment, Clark of Hamilton, Cole, Colfax, Crumbacker, and then the resolution was agreed to. Davis of Madison, Foley, Garvin, Gordon, Gra- Mr. BARBOUR offered a resolution instructham of Miami, Hamilton, Harbolt, Hawkins, ing the committee on State officers other Helm, Hitt, Howe, Johnson, Kent, Kilgore, than executive and judicial, to inquire into Kinley, Maguire, March, Mather, May, McClel- the expediency of inserting a clause in the new land, McFarland, Miller of Fulton, Milroy, Mor- Constitution providing that the Governor of the gan, Mowrer, Murray, Niles, Owen, Pepper of State should appoint the secretaries, sergeant-atOhio, Pettit, Read of Monroe, Ristine, Robin- arms, and doorkeeper to each legislature. son, Smith of Ripley, Smith of Scott, Steele, Mr. GIBSON. I move to amend the reso 255 lution by adding in the proper place, "' and the legislature once undertook to be very economcounty commissioners appoint the members of ical, and concluded to dispense with the serthe legislature." (Much laughter.) vices of an enrolling clerk, and made it the Mr. BARBOUR. My object in offering duty of the Secretary of State to perform the the resolution is this: It is well known that duties of that office. It was thus done somethese officers are annually elected by the legis- what cheaper, but the work was so badly done lature, after it meets here, at a great expense of that the scheme was abandoned. No good time and money. A great number of persons came of it, and none would come of this. from all parts of the State come up here every Mr. BASCOM offered an amendment providyear for the purpose of getting some one of ing that the Governorshould, at the same time, these offices, either as assistants or principals. appoint the members of the Senate and House I suppose that from fifty to one hundred assem- of Representatives. ble here at the opening of every session. The The amendments and the original resolution aggregate expense of all this is considerable- were severally disagreed to. perhaps not less than two thousand dollars- Mr. KILGORE offered a resolution proposing which would be saved to the people of the to dispense with the further services of a serState if the Governor had the appointment of geant-at-arms to this Convention. these officers. It is also to be presumed that Mr. K. remarked that the contested election the Governor would be better acquainted with case having been disposed of, he thought there the merits of the candidates than members of was no further need for the services of a serthe legislature, most of whom are always un- geant-at-arms. He meant no disrespect to the acquainted with these candidates. It is well gentleman who now held that office. understood that the Governor is fond of pleas- The resolution was laid upon the table. ing the legislature; but to provide against every On motion by Mr. EDMONDSTON, the contingency, the legislature would have the Convention adjourned until nine o'clock topower of removal. I throw this thing out more morrow morning. in the shape of a mere suggestion than as a formal proposal. Mr. KELSO. I must oppose the proposition for two reasons: TUESDAY, OCT. 29, 1850. First and foremost, the Governor of the State Te Convention met, pursuant to adjournis not presumed to be acquainted with the ment. claims and qualifications of all the people ofy he Rev. Mr. EYERS. Indiana for these offices, any more than other r r r The Journal of yesterday was read and apmen. Were a proposition like this to be adopt-proved. ed it would be a fair presumption that the Mr.OWEN, from the committee on the clerk, sergeant-at-arms, &c., &c., would be se- rgts an privileges of the inhabitants of the lected in and about the city of Indianapolis, be- State made the following report: cause it is here that his Excellency resides while holding office. This is manifestly unfair, Mr. PRESIDENT: The committee on the rights and not to be thought of for a moment. The and privileges of the inhabitants of the State, representatives come up here from every sec-to whom were referred certain resolutions on tion of the State, and are severally intimately the subject of homestead exemption, and of the acquainted with the persons asking these off- rights of property to married women, have had ces at their hands. They are, then, as well and these subjects under consideration, and have much better qualified than the Governor to se- instructed me to report three sections to be in lect these officers and servants of the legisla- corporated in the bill of rights of the amended ture, for they would know how to make a fair Constitution. distribution to the different parts of the State. They have also instructed me to report back Again, sir: suppose the legislature to be dem- the resolutions referred to them in regard to the ocratic and the Governor whig; or suppose the rights to property of married women, and to recGovernor to be a democrat and a majority of ommend that they le on the table. Also, to the representatives and senators whigs: the report back a resolution in favor of securing by Governor would appoint his political friends; a declaration in the bill of rights to the head of the legislature would demur, and would there each family in the State of Indiana a homestead not be furnished the cause and material for a exemption, for such action thereon as the Conregular political cat fight. [Laughter.] vention may see proper. It is much better that we should leave this And they ask to be discharged from the furmatter where it has always been, with the leg- ther consideration of these subjects. Islature. Let them select their own officers and Mr. MURRAY moved that the resolution orn servants. the subject of homestead exemption be referred As to the expense of the election of these to a select committee. officers, the legislature can take no step with- The PRESIDENT. That motion is not in out incurring expense. I remember that the order. 256 Mr. COLFAX remarked that the resolution Mr. MORRISON. At the time that rule had been reported back with the view that it was adopted, it was intended that all reports of shouldbe referred to another committee. committees should be made without argument; Mr. OWEN said, that the committee had but the Chair has decided, and I believe the reported back the resolution for such action as Convention has acquiesced in that decision, that the Convention might see proper to take in re- reasons may be given in the protest, or counter gard to it. report. gr to PQTWMT'T~k p ^The PRESIDENT. The Chair would reThe PRESIDENT. The Convention has The PRESDENT. The Char woud reT PRE.SIDEN.T. Th Comark, that according to all Parliamentary rules concurred in the report and discharged the com- t mittee from the further consideration of the of which he has any knowedge, it is the pr subject. lege of the minority to set forth the reasons subr.^ je'~~~ct. why they dissent from the decision of the maMr. COLFAX. Yes sir, that leaves it open jority. Upon that ground, the Chair has decidfor the action of the Convention, and the reso- ed as he has, and he will adhere to that decislution may now be referred to another commit- ion until it is reversed by the Convention. tee, or the Convention may act upon it at once Mr. PETTIT asked for the reading of the and either adopt or reject it as they see fit. rule. The PRESIDENT. The Chair understands Mr. MAGUIRE. It will be recollected that, the motion of the gentleman from Huntington when that rule was under consideration, I moved to be to refer the resolution to a select corn- to strike out the words "without argument," mittee. Of how many members shall the so as to permit all reports to be accompanied by committee consistl the reasons which governed the committee. Mr. MURRAY. Of five members. Mr. KELSO. It seems to me that the decisMr. PRATHER moved to amend the mo- ion made by the Chair is correct. A majority tion of the gentleman from Huntington so as report is the report of the committee-a minorto make the committee consist of one from each ity report is not. It has been decided by the Congressional district. Chair, and I think correctly, that when the maThe amendment was agreed to, and the ques- jority of a committee report a provision for the tion being taken on the motion of the gentle- action of the Convention, in the shape of an man from Huntington as amended, it was decid- amendment to the Constitution, the minority ed in the affirmative. may, in a report or protest, set forth their reasons Mr. BRIGHT, from the committee on the for dissenting from the conclusion of the majorielective franchise, to whom had been referred ty. It appears to me that this decision is cora resolution directing them to inquire into the rect, for the minority certainly ought to have propriety of inserting in the Constitution a the right to submit their objections in some clause prohibiting the immigration of negroes shape or other. into the State, made a report upon that subject, M r. PETTIT. The point of order that I concluding with a recommendation that it lie make, is that the rule that has been adopted by upon the table. this Convention, declares that all reports shall The report was concurred in, and the sub- be made without argument. Although I considject was laid upon the table. er that rule to be an improper one, yet the ConMr. SMITH of Ripley, from the committee vention having adopted the rule, it ought to be on county and township organization, made a observed-otherwise you will put it in the powreport which was read a first time and passed to er of the minority to write down the majority; a second reading to-morrow. the majority not being at liberty to assign their Mr. GOOTEE, from the same committee, reasons on paper, the minority may bring in a presented a minority report assigning reasons long written report and write them down. Now why the report of the majority should not be you see the absurdity of the position. I give concurred in. notice that on to-morrow I will move to strike He desired that the report of the minority out from the rules the words " without argushould be read. ment." Mr. PETTIT rose to a question of order. The PRESIDENT. The Chair would remark The rule, he said,required that all reports should to the gentleman from Tippecanoe, that the rebe made without argument. port of the majority is, the report of the comThe PRESIDENT. This is the report or i mittee, and the rule applies only to such report. protest of a minority. Mr. SMITH of Ripley said, that he would call Mr. PETTIT. It is a report from a commit- the attention of the President, and of the Contee, and it contains an argument. It is all vention, to this point: any ten members might right that it should contain argument or reas- call the yeas and nays, provided it were done ons. It ought to be so, and the rule that before the question was put, but every member prohibits argument in a report of a committee i had the right to enter a protest on the journal, is ail wrong. That is my view of it; but as without argument. But there seemed to be you have adopted such a rule, it is necessary some difficulty about the interpretation of this to adhere to it. j rule. 257 Mr. BORDEN (interposing) desired to know ions, and that if one party on a committee be if it was in order to discuss the question of or- prohibited from accompanying their reports;der-no appeal having been taken from the de- with arguments, both should. This is the cision of the Chair. course that was adopted in the Ohio ConstituThe PRESIDENT. The Chair considers it tional Convention, and in all the recent Conproper to discuss the point of order. The gen- ventions of this character whose proceedings I tleman from Ripley will proceed. have noticed. The majority have their report Mr. SMITH. My object in rising was only of sections and articles printed, and the same to call the attention of the President and of the courtesy is extended to a dissenting minority, Convention to this rule, and to say that there and thus the Convention have both reports side appears to be some difficulty in ascertaining the by side, and can the better judge of their relalimits and bounds of a protest, or minority re- tive merits. It seems to me that such should port. I, know that protests are required to be be the course of procedure here. short, and respectfully worded, in all bodies On yesterday I gave notice of the introducwhere they are at all admitted. I do not en- tion of a resolution amending the rules in this tirely agree with my friend over the way, (Mr. regard, and allowing the minority to bring in a.Pettit,) that there should be no limitation. I report of articles and sections. do think that an argumentative report should Mr. PETTIT. I will take an appeal from not be made. I think it is sufficient for a corm- the decision of the Chair, in order that the mittee to report without argument. But at the practice under the rule may be settled. same time I think it is right that a member, The PRESIDENT. Does any gentleman who is in the minority, should have the privilege second the appeal from the decision of the of coming in and showing his reasons-and Chair taken by the gentleman from Tippecathey should be as brief as possible-why he noe? -does not agree with the majority of the commit- Mr. BORDEN. I will second the appeal, tee. out of courtesy to the gentleman. Mr. OWEN. I desire to call the attention The question being put, the decision of the of gentlemen to the exact reading of this rule. Chair was sustained. 4t is as follows: Mr. SMITH of Ripley. I suppose that un"That the standing committees shall be the der the rules, the report will be printed. The PRESIDENT. The Convention has following, to whom shall be referred all such The PRESIDENT. The Convention has matters touching the Constitution as properly fixed the number of copies to be printed o each belong to each, and that they report without report at three hundred. argument, the provisions, alterations, and The report of the majority only will be printamendments required." e amendments required." The resolution proposing to dispense with the I think that this clearly applies to standing services of a Sergeant-at-arms was then taken committees only. Under the circumstances, Iuforconsideration. consider the decision which the Chair has made, Mr. KILGORE. In offering the resolution a proper one. The rule simply prohibits the on yesterday, no disrespect was intended to the committee proper-that is, a majority of the wthy gentleman who now fills that post. committee-from accompanying their report of But I thought, from the beginning, that after sections and articles with an argument setting the Convention disposed of the contested elecforth the reasons for the report. It does not tion case, we should be able to dispense with compel the minority to make an argument, but the services of a Sergeant-at-arms, and thereby they are not prohibited from doing so. save to the State a considerable expense. Mr. READ of Monroe. The minority of a There are no processes to be served, and no ducommittee, may not, under the rules adopted by ties for this officer to perform. this Convention, embody their views in the An amendment was offered by Mr. BERRY, shape of articles and sections, in the spirit and proposing to dispense with the services of a form in which they would wish incorporated in Stenographer. the new Constitution, but they are privileged Mr. KILGORE. I do not know that I to give their reasons for dissenting from the ar- should object to such an amendment to my tides and sections reported by the majority of resolution.:the committee. Mr. DOBSON. I do not know that I clearBut, sir, it seems to me that the minority ly understand the object of the gentleman (Mr. should not, of right, have this very decided ad- Kilgore) who offered this resolution, when he vantage over the majority, who are debarred says that there is no further need of the Serfrom giving the reasons which induced them to geant-at-arms because there will be no proreport in a particular manner. I am decidedly cesses to be served. Perhaps this is an adroit of the opinion that the minority should, when movement on the part of that gentleman to get they dissent from the views of the majority, be rid of that very useful officer, who might feel it allowed to report articles and sections in due his duty to take him (Mr. Kilgore) into custody form, which shall embody their views and opin- for some disturbance during the session. 17 258 If the gentleman knew the effect of some bring the reports on sections and articles of the speeches in this Convention, he might also Constitution before the body, business would vote to dispense with a Stenographer. [A scarcely be forwarded for weeks to come. It laugh.] was his opinion that these reports had better be Mr. KILGORE. As to any quarrel which I made the special order for a certain day and a. might get into with the gentleman (Mr. Dob- certain hour, several days or a week or more son) over the way, I am sure any of the door- in advance, so that all would know when a keepers could secure me, and if the gentleman given subject was coming up, and be prepared should prove too belligerent, and refuse to sur- to debate it and vote upon it. render, I am sure the door-keeper and myself Mr. OWEN then offered the following: could secure him. [A laugh.] esolved, That, in all cases, the sections of As to the speeches that are made here, I will the ameded Constitution, reported by the tions of only remark, in reply to the gentleman, (Mr. the amended Constitution, reported by the mionly remark, in reply to the gentleman, ('Mr. nority of a standing committee, be printed along Dobson,) with the sections reported by the majority of * 0 wad some power the giftie gie us the same committee. To see ourselves as ithers see us." v. Mr. BORDEN desired to make a suggestion. Mr. KENT moved to lay the resolution on If, said he, we take up these various reports in the table, which was agreed to. Convention, will not the various amendments The resolution proposing to amend the rules which will be offered, encumber the journal enwas taken up, and the mover, wvas taken up, and the mosver, tirely too much? and would it not be better to go Mr. READ of Monroe, said, that the objectinto committee ot the whole upon these reports, was, so to amend the rules as to allow the mi-where no journal will be kept of the multitude nority of a committee to report sections and of amendments and motions t articles in the same way that the majority now, r do, neither being accompanied with written ar- Mr. CWEN said, he ouht the better way guments, but both to be printed and laid simul- would be to postpone to a day and an hour, pretaneouslv before the Convention. We should viously named, at which time, a certain propothen have the views of all the members of the Sltion or report might be taken up and discussed committee, and could compare them one with untl disposed of another. I hope, sir, said Mr. READ, that the As tothe sugeston of the gentleman from resolution will prevail, and that the rules will Alen, (Mr. Borden,) he thought that this Conbe armended. vention had better not adopt the plan of frequentThe resolution was areed to. ly going into committee of the whole. My exMr. PEPPER of Ohio offered the following: perience, said Mr. 0., teaches me that it is better, as much as possible, to avoid going into comResolved, That the Auditor of State be re- mittee of the whole. quested to inform this Convention of the quan- Mr. SMITH of Ripley. With all due defertity, situation, condition, and uses to which ence to the distinguished gentleman from Posey, they are applied, of any unsold lots and lands (Mr. Owen,) to whose suggestions and opinions included in the original donation by Congress for I am always inclined to yield my own, I must the establishment of a seat of government for differ with him in this matter. I appeal to genthis State. tlemen of experience here, if the consequence Mr. PEPPER. I presume no objection will of making " special orders " of reports and propbe made to our obtaining the information al- ositions does not lead to the consumption of luded to. I will, in a word, state the object: most of the time of legislative sessions. I know The design is to ascertain, as nearly as pos- that the propositions to which the gentleman sible, the quantity of land included in, and still from Posey has called the attention of the Conbelonging to, the "Donation " granted by Con- vention, are very important ones, and ones in gress to the State for public purposes. My ob- which all take a very deep interest. The day ject in offering the resolution is to secure the for which the proposition is made the special preservation of these lots for the use and pleas- order, is some time distant, and, by the time it ure of the people of the State, as well as the comes round, I presume that gentlemen will be citizens of Indianapolis, as public grounds. In provided with elaborate arguments and lengthy all the large cities of our country it has become speeches, on both sides of the question. I have an object of great interest to secure squares no doubt these gentlemen would be very much and open plats of ground in their midst, to be disappointed should they be deprived of an opornamented with trees and shrubbery, and to portunity of fully discussing the question. But serve the double purpose of public use and pub- at this rate, the Convention will not have time lic gratification. While it is yet possible to to take up many other subjects equally important, secure such lots here, I wish to see it done. and bestow upon them the attention they deThe resolution was agreed to. serve. Look at the time consumed in the disMr. OWEN remarked, that a flood of reso- cussion of the single question involved in the lutions were pouring in upon the Convention resolution offered by the gentleman from Tippeevery day, and unless means were adopted to canoe, relative to the abolition of the Grand Ju 259 ry system! One week has already been con- his position; he knows very weli the eternal sumed in debating that subject, and I presume duration of discussion where there are no restricat least another week or ten days will be re- tions. and no bounds, andjwhere important questquired to finish it. Make all your important ions are made the special order for a distant day. I propositions "special orders," and we shall con- dislike the special orders, because they afford sume the winter, and then be far enough from such ample time for the preparation of speeches. the completion of the labor we were sent here When a man has got all his implements of war, to perform-the formation of a simple organic his uniform, accoutrements, provisions, and all law for the State. his preparations made for a march and a battle, As I before remarked, I generally yield to the if not a siege and carmpaign, it will be very gentleman from Posey (Mr. Owen) because I difficult to restrain him and cool his patriotic have much confidence in his judgment and be- ardor. [Laughter.] When gentleren have got lieve he entertains a disposition to proceed in their speeches all prepared, their arguments the public business with all proper dispatch. ready, and their authorities at hand, it is but But in this case I deem his position an unten- courteous to hear them through. because others able one. I think that all the reports from have spoken and they must have the same standing committees and important propositions privilege. Why, sir, I had no idea at all of should be referred to a committee of the whole speaking upon this question of the abolition of Convention, and taken up from day to day until the Grand Jury; and here is my friend from Dethey are ready for final action, which can then catur, who at first thought the idea so novel that be had without debate. Why is it that we see it was unworthy of his attention, but now, if such a flood of resolutions poured in upon u you could see his eiuioraie anid ormidable here from day to day! Simply, sir, because we preparations for the inflictions [much merrihave nothing else to do. We assemble here ment all over the chamber] he designs to bein the morning-there is no special order to stow upon us, you might be alarmed. But we take up-we have not previously resolved to go shall have to hear him. sir, and after he has fininto committee of the whole upon any subject, ished, I may have to make a speech myself [reand our time is consumed by the offering of newed merriment] in reply, although I never this multitude of resolutions, which, as is well thought of speaking upon the subject. In this known, must all go upon the Journal. But if way we shall be kept here until mid-summer. we had portions of the Constitution referred to Instead of this, we should refer reports and the committee of the whole, gentlemen would propositions to a committee of the whole. If exhaust their propositions which are now of- you would discharge your present committees, ferred in the shape of resolutions, in amend- burn your journals, and go back where you startments to the sections and articles before the ed from a month since, take up the old Consticommittee, and they would not encumber the tution in committee of the whole, and go over Journal as they now do. Are not gentlemen it section by section, article by article, and, if aware that all these resolutions or the most of need be, line by line, like sensible men, [renewthem, will come up again when the reports of ed laughter,] and as was talked of before we committees are under consideration' I sug- came here, we should shorten the session very gest, then, that the better way would be to considerably. We should be able to perform have a standing order for every day, and imme- all the work required of us, before the distindiately after the expiration of the morning hour, guished gentleman from Posey (Mr. Owen) gets which will be consumed by the reading of the his proposition concerning married women's Journal, petitions, reports, &c., let the Con- rights [laughter] discussed and disposed of to vention resolve itself into committee of the his satisfaction; and before the gentlemen from whole, then all these resolutions can be offered Tippecanoe (Mr. Pettit) shall have fully discusin the shape of amendments and the Journal sed the abolition of the Grand Jury,and before the will not be encumbered with them. After the venerable-I don't like to use that term much, consideration of the various subjects in com- because it may be applied to me-gentleman mittee of the whole, unnecessary debate would from Wayne (Mr. Raridan) gets the Banks and be cut short in the Convention by the call for Banking system of the State fixed to his mind. the " previous question," and our work would For the propositions of that gentleman (Mr. soon be finished and we would be ready to re- Raridan) have got to be made a "special order " turn to our several homes. Every gentleman also, and such a " special order" as they are who listens to me knows that what I say is subjects for! Aproposition to extend the chartrue. ter of the State bank, with all the petty banks But I do fear, if all the favorite propositions of hung around her in order; I suppose, that the gentlemen, are to be made the special order for greater may destroy the lesser. And then, Mr. a day fixed long in advance, as for example, the President, I had almost forgotten that great and Grand Jury question, gentlemen will have prolific source of discussion-the negro questime to pump up all their thunder, and we may tion! "Our negroes" we shall soon be calling never get through. them, as you hear some members of Congress, I hope the gentleman from Posey will review ranting about their negroes. 260 I do hope, sir, that my friend from Posey will mentary rule, bring it to a close, by a call of reconsider his motion to make his proposition the previous question; a thing, however, which tlh special order for a distant day. I, myself, shall be slow to do, so long as any Mr. OWEN. I have the greatest respect for gentleman desires to be heard. It is far better, the judgment and good sense of the gentleman by proceeding slowly, to lose a day or two, from Ripley (Mr. Smith). I have had occa- than to make a wrong decision which might be sion to know him well whilst serving with him hard to reverse. I hope it will be the pleasure in another deliberative body than this: but I of the Convention to adopt the resolution fixmust be permitted to say, that his present re- ing the day and hour for the consideration of marks, as I think, do not show his usual good the subject indicated, so that it can be sprung sense in as favorable a light as I have observed upon none of us unawares. it heretofore. What is the objection he urgesl The question was then taken, and the resoluIt is, that, if we make a special order, gentle- tion was adopted. men will come here too well prepared to debate Mr. KENDALL offered the following resothe questions before them. In truth,the espe- lution: eial object which I had in view in proposing a Resolved, That the committee on the rights special order, is, that gentlemen may come here and privileges of the inhabitants of this State fully prepared. Too well prepared they cannot be instructed to inquire into the expediency of come. Nor do I doubt that it may tend to providing that hereafter all property sold on exshorten, instead of prolonging, the time of de- ecution shall bring at least two-thirds of its bate, if we always came prepared as we should appraised value. be. The apology was a good one, made by a Mr. M'CLELLAND moved to amend the gentleman to his friend, when sending him a. resolution by striking out the word "two-thirds," long letter: " I write you a long letter, be- and inserting in lieu thereof the word "full," cause I have not time to prepare a shorterone." which was decided in the negative. So it will be with us. If we condense our Mr. WOLFE moved to amend by striking thoughts, we shall shorten debate. But if we out the word " property" and inserting " real come here without preparation, we shall be te- estate." dious and diffuse. Subjects will come up, and The motion was decided in the negative. must be considered and debated, whether we Mr. RARIDEN said, he would prefer that it have prepared ourselves or not. Other gentle- should be left to those coming after us to adopt men may be able to debate great measures of their own rules of commerce. He did not see State policy, without deliberation. I freely any propriety, however just and proper it might confess that I never willingly engage in such be in a legislative point of view, in adopting this debate without long preparation. I consider it as a part of the Constitution. The object of dueto myself, to my fellow-members, and to such a proceeding, as he understood it, must the subject, to bestow upon it the best powers grow out of the apprehension that all wisdom, I possess. Therefore I desire to know, before- justice, humanity, and true policy, would die hand, the day and hour when any important with the dissolution of this Convention; and if matter is to come under discussion, so that I those who are to come after us should be left may tlot be taken at unawares. The subjects to pursue their own course in the regulation of to be presented to us are so multifarious, that, matters which belong peculiarly to themselves, withbut such notice as this, we have little they would be sure togo wrong. He confessed chance to be prepared as to their various de- that he could not see the propriety of adopting tails. There are the subjects of banking, of any such thing in the new Constitution; therecorporations generally, and many other ques- fore, he should vote against any reference. tions scarcely less vital. Ought we not have Mr. GRAHAM of Warrick, moved to change notice on what day and hour any one of these the reference to the committee on law and law is to be presented to the Convention, so that reform. those who favor, and those who disfavor, the Mr. BORDEN said, it seemed to him, that proposition to be considered, may have full op- the duty of the committee on law and law reportunity to prepare, arrange, and condense, form was misapprehended. He supposed if their respective reasons. Nor, even if debate that committee should report a single section should happen to be prolonged, are we to reck- for the appointment of commissioners to report on here so much upon time. We are not act- upon this subject to some future Legislature, ing here for a day, nor for a year, nor for ten that their work would be accomplished; for it years. We are acting, in all human probabiii- could not be expected that they were to report ty, for a quarter of a century; it may be, for even so much as a plan for the sale of real eshalf a century. Shall we, with such a respon- tate under execution: it would be impossible sibility before us, overhurry debate? Shall we for them to set out these matters in the Constistand justified, before the people of the State, tution. It would make a book larger than the in doing so' statutes. But, again, if at any time the Convention The question being taken on Mr. GRAweary of debate, we can, according to parlia- HAM'S motion, it was not agreed to. 261 Mr. BORDEN proposed to amend, by chang- but a statement of his own views upon the oring the reference"to the committee on miscel- ganization of the courts. He supposed the laneous provisions; but before the question was gentleman from Tippecanoe could not be intaken- suited by a motion to direct such a proposition On motion, by Mr. MILLER of Gibson, it to the committee over which he presided. was I Mr. PETTIT. Not in the least; but I must Ordered, That the resolution and amendment insistupon my amendment-adopting the propolie upon the table. sition as a part of the Constitution. THE JUDICIARY. The PRESIDENT. Will the gentleman send up his amendment in writing! Mr. BORDEN offered the following resolu- p his amendment in writing tion:. ~ tE >frd tl olwn elu Mr. PETTIT (in his seat). If any gentleman can send me a pen I will prepare it. Resolved, That the committee on the organi- Mr. BASCOM. I move that the Convention zation of courts of justice be instructed to in- do now adjourn. quire into the expediency of providing in the Mr. PETTIT (in his seat). Consent! Constitution that the judicial power of this But the Convention refused to adjourn. State shall be vested in Mr. PETTIT then withdrew his amendment. 1. A Supreme Court. Mr. CHAPMAN proposed the following for 2. Circuit Courts. the original resolution, stating that he did so at 3. Justices of the Peace. the request of one of the ablest lawyers in the Provided, The Legislature may also vest such State: civil and criminal jurisdiction in the mayors of "That the committee be instructed to inquire the incorporated cities of this State, as may be into the expediency of providing that the Sudeemed necessary and proper, but such crirni- preme Court shall consist of four judges, to be nal jurisdiction shall not extend to capital of- elected by the people by districts, to hold their fenses, or crimes punished by confinement in offices for the term of five years, to have appelthe State Prison. late jurisdiction, and that it shall require the The Supreme Court shall be composed of five concurrence of three of these judges to reverse judges who shall be chosen by the electors of the judgment of the court below." the State, and shall serve for - years. The Mr. PETTIT said, he desired to state to the State shall be divided into five judicial districts Convention that there were now referred to the of contiguous territory, in each of which dis- committee on the organization of courts ofjustricts one of said judges shall reside. Provision tice, some dozen or fifteen resolutions-resolushall be. made by law for designating one of tions suggesting no other idea than what every the number as Chief Justice, and for so classi- practicing lawyer upon the committee must fying said judges that one ofthem shall be elect- have resolved in his own mind. They coned every year. sisted of directions to inquire into what must The State shall be divided from time to time necessarily be inquired into by the committee, as the exigencies of the same may require, into in order to the establishment of any judicial judicial circuits, of contiguous territory. One system. These resolutions imposed no obligajudge shall be elected in each circuit by the tion upon the committee, and they were all perqualified electors therein, to serve for six years. ifectly useless. Some half dozen of them, and At least three terms of the circuit court shall perhaps a larger bundle, had been prepared with be held in each county annually. reference to abolishing the office of associate The qualified voters in the several townships judge; a half dozen more had reference to a reshall, at their annual spring elections, elect jus- porter for the supreme court; and there were tices of the peace, whose term of office shall be two or three for abolishing the present Supreme for three years. There shall be three in num- Court and establishing a better in its stead. Of bar in each township, and shall be so classified all these things it was the duty of the committhat one of them shall go out of office each tee to consider, without being specially inyear. structed. Then why encumber them with an Mr. PETTIT proposed to amend by striking hundred resolutions of inquiryl The commitout the clause of reference and inserting a tee had been called together, and it was underdeclaration that the proposition be inserted as stood and agreed upon that they would take no so much of the Constitution. definite action upon these resolutions; but that Mr. WOLFE suggested, that the proposition they would report their propositions, merely, contained no provision for probate business. since they were not at liberty to report arguMr. BORDEN said, that the proposition con- ment. They considered there was no necestemplated that the powers of a probate judge sity for encumbering the journal by bringing up should be vested in a circuit judge. With refer- the matter half a dozen times. It necessarily ence to the motion to make this proposition so became the duty of the committee to consider much of the Constitution, he had to say that he whether the present Constitution had organized did not object. He submitted it, however, as a a proper and sufficient judiciary system for the mere matter of inquiry. It contained nothing State; and if not, they were to consult and see 262 wherein amendretds should be applied, what received their approbation. If the Convention particular matter should be stricken out, and should think his suggestion contained nothing what added. If it were not improper to make worthy of the consideration of the committee, the statement, (and he supposed it would not be he hoped they would not order its reference. so considered,) he would say, that, by order of the Although he had not himself voted against the committee, each member had taken it upon reference of any resolution of inquiry, he hoped himself to present a plan or draft of his own, the Convention, unless it should be considered embracing his plan for the organization of the worthy of approbation by tile majority, would courts; and it was proposed to put them all to- reject it. gether, and consider and adopt the best one, The resolution was adopted; and report that to the Convention. And then, after the consideration of matters Mr. BORDEN said, he had great confidence involving no debate, in the committee, and he believed there was no On motion, doubt that any member of that committee The Convention adjourned until 9 o'clock was well qualified to prepare a plan which to-morrow morning. would be worthy of consideration, and perhaps greatly facilitate the business of the courts... But he submitted, whether it was not proper for WEDNESDAY Or. 30 1850. every member of the Convention to submit his views with reference to the organization of the The Convention met. judiciary? And whether any member of the yer by e delegate ro Putna (Mr. committee ought to think it an intrusion for FARROW). such suggestions to be proposed and directed to TH, LEGISLATLRE. them. There mihit have been some proposi- The Convention resolved itself into committion, similar to his own, heretofore suggested te of the whole, (Mr. WALPOLE in the chair,) and referred to the committee; but he had em- and took up for consideration the resolution of bodied his own ideas, and he would be glad if Mr. Pepper of Crawford, and the pending the Convention would order their reference. amendments thereto, which had been made the Mr. PETTIT moved to lay the resolution and special order for this day. The resolution and amendment upon the table. amendments were read by the Secretary, asfolThe question being taken on the motion lows: of the gentleman from Tippecanoe, it was not Resolved, That the committee on the elective agreed to. franchise and apportionment of representation, The question was then taken upon Mr. Chap- inquire into the expediency of so amending the man's amendment, and it was rejected. Constitution, that the number of representaThe question recurring upon the adoption of tives in the Legislature shall never exceed one the original resolution, hundred; and the number of senators shall nevMr. RARIDEN said he could have no objec- er exceed fifty-leaving the Legislature with tion to the reference of these resolutions of in- power to reduce said number at any time, if quiry upon every subject; but, from the manner said reduction shall become necessary. in which they had come to be presented and Mr. COOKERLY had proposed to amend by adopted, they could not indicate to the various striking out all after the word " resolved," and committees the concentrated opinion of the inserting the following: Convention. Since it had become a mere mat- "That the committee on the elective franter of courtesy to adopt these resolutions, they chise and apportionment of representation, be had ceased to have that tendency. It had be- instructed so to amend the Constitution that the come a matter of courtesy now to adopt the House of Representatives shall consist of sevsuggestion of any gentleman in the form of an enty-five members, and the Senate shall consist inquiry, and send it to a committee. The of thirty-five." committees could no longer receive them as an Mr. RARIDEN had moved to amend the expression of the mind of the Convention. He amendment, as follows: strike out all after the saw neither good nor harm which the reference word " Constitution," and insertof this resolution could possibly do. He enter- "That the basis of representation shall be tained the view of the gentleman from Tippe- one representative for every twenty-five huncanoe (Mr. Pettit) upon this subject. If the reso- dred inhabitants; and one senator for every five lution could have the effect of indicating to the thousand inhabitants, until otherwise directed committee what was the feeling of the Conven- by the Legislature." tion in the matter, then it would be very proper The CHAIRMAN stated the question to be to refer it; but it was manifest that it could upon the adoption of the amendment to the have no such effect. amendment. Mr. BORDEN said, he did not know that Mr. MILLER of Gibson suggested, that the his proposition did not indicate the feeling of the committee on the legislative department had Convention upon the subject. He had submit- considered the subject embraced in this resoluted it to several members of the bar, and it had tion, and the pending amendments. and would 263 be ready to report to-morrow, and, therefore, in Mr. PETTIT said, he would like to have some -order that the committee of the whole might ready writer or figurer cypher it out, and tell us have the benefit of this report, he moved that how many senators and representatives we the subject be laid upon the table. would have under the ratio of apportionment The CHAIRMAN said, such a motion was proposed by the gentleman from Wayne, pronot in order in committee of the whole. vided there were a million of voters in the Mr. MILLER then moved that the commit- State l tee rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit Mr. DOBSON said, that if his figures were again, i right, and he believed they were, there would The CHAIRMAN suggested that, according be thirty-six senators and seventy-two repreto his recollection, the several standing commit- sentatives. tees had been discharged from the consideration Mr. PETTIT inquired whether the rule apof this subject; and that this was done at the plied to polls or citizens? time when the subject was referred to the com- Mr. DOBSON. To polls. mittee of the whole, and made the special or- A VOICE. " Voters.",der for this day. The question being taken upon the amendMr. COOKERLY; What committee does ment to the amendment, it was rejected; and the the gentleman from Gibson refer to 3 question recurring upon the amendment of Mr. Mr. MILLER of Gibson. The committee on Cookerly, the legislative department. Mr. COOKERLY said: Mr. CHAIRMDAN-I Mr. PETTIT called for the reading of the do not desire to trouble the committee any furjournal of October 25th, with reference to this ther than to say, that it does not seem to me subject. that the Convention ought to reduce the numAnd the passage referred to was accordingly j ber of senators and representatives. I thin[k read by the Secretary. - this is a reform which the people look for. I Mr. GRAHAM of Warrick said, he under- know they do in our section. We have too.stood that, upon the motion of the delegate now many senators, in my opinion; and too many in the chair, the Convention had discharged the representatives also: and we ought to reduce standing committees having this subject before their number, if for no other purpose than that them, from its further consideration, and that it of economy. I would ask why, in the name of was referred to the committee of the whole, reason, seventy representatives and thirty senaand made the especial order for this day. Not- tors cannot legislate just as well for the freemen withstanding this action of the Convention, the of Indiana, as one hundred representatives and committee on the legislative department had fifty senators! This is an old and familiar quesproceeded to consider the subject, and would be tion in this State. It has been agitated in this ready to report to-morrow. The committee on Hall before; and, I trust the Convention, before the elective franchise, according to order, had it decides not to reduce the present number of not made out any report, preferring that the senators and representatives, will, at least, Convention should take what course they pleas- stop and reflect seriously upon the subject. The ed. He trusted that the committee would not great reason why the people voted for the call rise without giving some expression of opinion of this Convention, was embraced in the hope,as to the prospective number of senators and i of being able to economize the public expenses; representatives. I and are the people to be deceived in regard to Mr. MILLER of Gibson said, he did not un- this matter! I hold this to be a rule by which derstand when this business was taken out of we should always be guided, that every man the hands of the committee on the elective who is a representative of the people, should franchise, that it was also taken away from the vote for every measure to economize the public other committee. expenditures without detriment to the public inMr. GRAHAM of Warrick. Does not the terest. I should like, now, to hear from the journal read " all committees?" other side, the reasons why the number of senMr. PETTIT (in his seat). i" The commit- ators and representatives should not be reduced. tees." Mr. FOSTER. I offer the following amendMr. COOKERLY said, he hoped the commit- ment to the amendment of the gentleman front tee would not rise. It was important that this Vigo: question should be settled as soon as possible; "That the whole number of members comnin order that the committee on apportionment posing the General Assembly, shall consist of mnight go to work. 120; of which number 30 shall constitute the The question was now taken on the motion Senate, and 90 the House of Representatives." -to rise, and it was lost. Mr. EDMONSTON. I have but a few The CHAIRMAN again stated the question words to say in regard to the number of Senato be upon the adoption of the amendment of & tors and Representatives. I think, sir, if gen-the gentleman from Wayne, (Mr. Rariden,) to tlemen will reflect a little, they cannot but come the amendment of the gentleman from Vigo, to the conclusion that, since we have adopted (Mr. Cookerly). biennial sessions of the Legislature, every por 264 tion of the State will be anxious for a fair rep- than a larger number. A few wise men, it isresentation. Every gentleman upon this floor proposed, shall assemble here-the Representais not situated in this respect like the.gentle- tives of a few large counties-and very patronman from Vigo, who comes from a large and izingly they would agree to take a kind of supopulous county, which is always sure to be en- pervisory care over all the smaller counties of titled to a full representation. His condition is the State. The larger counties will take the very unlike those coming from the smaller and smaller counties under their wings and arrogate sparsely settled counties, where you have to tie to themselves, and swallow up the whole of, the -uo four or five of them to make a representative business of legislation. Sir, we have, every ditrict The representative of one of these man, an interest in his own county, and we large and thinly settled districts cannot look so want to have every county represented. We, well to the wants and interests of the people of who live in the newly settled portions of the any county in his district in which he does not State, are unwilling to be deprived of our right himself reside. I would be willing to diminish to a representation here. We, also, claim that the present number of Senators, but not of the our voice shall be heard in making the laws. I Representatives. It is also my opinion, that ifi care not for the reduction of the Senate, but I you diminish the number of Representatives, do think the larger branch of the Legislature you ought to increase the per diem, for no com- should come as near to the people as possible; petent man would be found willing to traverse and I think that upon the ratio which I have such a vast extent of territory as his canvassing suggested, in a very few years every county might require of him, for the pe- diem now al- would be entitled to at least one Representalowed. tive. The vote was then taken on Mr. FOSTER'S Mr. NAVE said: Mr. Chairman, I regard this amendment, and it was rejected; and the ques- as one of the most important propositions that tion recurring upon the amendment of Mr. can come before this Convention. It carries Cookerly- with it, and it involves deeply, the interests of Mr. BASCOM proposed the following amend- the people of Indiana. It proposes to lessen ment, which was read by the Secretary: the expense of legislation. Looking over the "That there shall be one Senator for every past history of the legislation of Indiana, we three thousand voters, and one Representative can come to no other conclusion than this: that for every one thousand voters." the vast amount of legislation which has been Mr. BASCOM. I am sure, sir, that no per- imposed upon the people, under the present orson representing two counties can do that jus- ganization of the House of Representatives of tice to the interests of both, which its position one hundred, and of a Senate of fifty members, requires of him. It is impossible. I know it has proved a curse rather than a blessing. If is the case in my part of the State, where two the people of Indiana could now go back to the or three counties are included in one represent- session of 1831, and dispense with all the legative district, that there is not the same interest islation that has taken place since, it would be felt for each of these counties in the legislature better for them-they would be better off withwhich every county should be entitled to. The out it than they are in the present condition of Representative can not act for all so well as for their public affairs, resulting from the legislathe county in which he may happen to reside. tion since that time. All, or nearly all, of our He might find himself acting for the advance- State legislation since that time, has only inment of the interests of his own county, and to creased the difficulty in the minds of men of the detriment of important interests of other common understanding, about the administracounties in his district at the same time. With tion of the law. Therefore, it becomes importrespect to the economy of the argument, gen- ant for the Convention to inquire into this questiemen might as well say, that we will take a tion and ascertain what has induced such avast select counsel of ten, to do up the business of amount of legislation, without any good effect our legislation, or give it all to your Governor- upon the interests of the people. If they find allow him to make the laws-and so save all that it is in consequence of too large a number the expense of legislation. I agree fully with \ of Senators and Representatives, it is important the gentleman from Dubois, (Mr. Edmonston,) that we should reduce their numbers so that, in that every part of the State should have a full future, we may have judicious and righteous representation. There are the old counties of laws, applicable to a straight-forward common Dearborn, Wayne, Marion, and Vigo-they will sense administration of justice. be here, and their voice will be heard, under any The proposition of the gentleman from Wells ratio which can be devised; but the voice of a (Mr. Bascom) would give us nearly two hundred sparsely settled northern county will hardly Representatives. He says that it is important ever be heard in these halls. Sir, we ask for that we should have every county in the State a scale of apportionment by which the voice of represented. Let us look at his argument. In every county shall be heard. There is great my opinion, it has no force whatever. For, if humbug in the pretension that a few men can two or three counties are taken together to form better transact business, in s deliberative body, one representative district, I ask you, sir, if, up 265 on looking over all this large territory for a i the gentleman from Vigo, that we should not. man qualified properly to represent them, the adopt as a feature of the new Constitution. people would not be more apt to get a proper The people would rejoice to see such a feature man-honest, and capable, and faithful-to in the Constitution which is to be submitted for whose hands they might entrust the interests their approval. Then it seems to me that we of the entire district, with the prospect of be- should give this expression now, while we are ing better represented than if they were con- in committee of the whole, so that the commitfined to a single county, in making their selec- tees which may be affected by such an opinion tion 1 This argument, then, falls to the here, may have this guide before them in preground. paring their propositions. In making these Another argument for this reduction, is to suggestions, I intend to offer no discourtesy to be found in the fact, that if we have a smaller the mover of the resolution, (Mr. Pepper of number of Representatives they will be able to Crawford,) nor to the gentleman on my right, do more business in less time. My opinion is (Mr. Bascom,) but rather to urge the importhat if there were but seventy delegates in this tance of settling this question now, by giving Convention, we could do the business before us an expression to the feeling of the majority in in half the time that will now be required, with relation to it. a hundred and fifty. Men's opinions are differ- Mr. GRAHAM of Warrick said, Mr. CHAIRent upon different subjects, and whilst each man, MAN:-The gentleman from Vigo (Mr. Cookerrespectively, contends for the interests of his ly) has called upon those who are opposed to constituents, if anything is done amongst such his proposition, to come forward and give their a complication of interests, it must be the re- reasons for refusing to vote for it. But I besult of a compromise, which is not often adjust- lieve that, whenever a man proposes a change ed upon the most desirable foundations. of established usages, it is incumbent upon him And the argument for this reduction is to be! first to show his reasons for the change, instead' found in the fact that the larger the number of of calling for reasons from those who may be Representatives the greater will be the amount opposed to it. of legislation imposed upon the people, and the The gentleman from Vigo has affirmed that number of the laws being increased they, of the principal object in calling this Convention course, become more difficult of understanding was the consideration that we might econoand administration among the measures of the mize and retrench the future expenses of the people. I hope, sir, that our Legislature will be government, as though the people had not any restricted to the passage of few laws, and those such object in view as good government. But of a general character. I hope that we shall I understand the reasons for the call to have be able to dispense wholly with special legis- been placed upon quite a different ground. It lation, and if so, then one man certainly, can was, thatwe might incorporate in the new Conmuch more satisfactorily represent a larger dis- stitution the changes that time, experience and trict. progress in the science of government, have Sir, I have some acquaintance with the people I demonstrated to be absolutely necessary to the of Indiana, and there is no county of which I future growth and prosperity of our State, and have any knowledge, but what is desirous that to secure to each of her citizens the full enjoythe number of our Senators and Representa- ment and unrestrained exercise of his "natural, tives should be diminished. I am of the opin- inherent, and unalienable rights." This, sir, ion of the gentleman from Vigo (Mr. COOK- wasthe principle; economy the incident. ERLY) that seventy Representatives and thirty The gentleman from Hendricks (Mr. Nave) Senators would be altogether sufficient to an- affirms, that the people of the State have been swer the wants of the people for all time to long cursed with too many Representatives and come. Senators, and that they will hail with joy any My friend on the left (Mr. Edmonston) has provision for the reduction of their number. said that we could not find candidates willing to We have thus the bare unsupported assertion cf go to the trouble of canvassing a large district, the gentleman, and he intimates that it was the Sir, there are too many men in our State who work of too many Representatives which desire office, and itwould be better to restrain this plunged the State into debt. But how stands desire, than to offer inducements which would the fact' Was it really under the legislative increase the number of candidates. But the hand of one hundred Representatives that the gentleman says, if we decrease the number of people have been plunged into debt; or was it Representatives it should be followed by an in- not under the legislative supervision of sevencrease of their per diem. But I see no neces- ty-five Representatives and thirty-six Senators? sity, at all, for that, in order to fill these Halls The latter appears to be the fact. Then the with Representatives. I have never yet seen interests of the people seem not to have been any lack of willingness to come up here as the so well guarded in this instance, with a smalpeople's Representative. Then this argument, ler number of Representatives, as they might also, falls to the ground. have been with a larger number. It is my There is nothing, sir, in the amendment of opinion, if the larger number of Representa — 266'tives had been in this Hall at that time, the bill tained and expressed. There would be more which plunged the State into debt,never would plausibility in this argument, if a provis-,have been passed in the shape it was. But in ion was made for dividing counties into repthis I may be mistaken. resentative districts, so that every representative Sir, do you seriously believe now, when our would have a separate constituency. Under people are increasing in numbers daily, that we the present apportionment many counties have should set about decreasing the number of our two or three members of the House of RepreRepresentatives? Sir, it would be making a sentatives, and the county of Wayne sometimes retrograde movement. This is the only prop- has four. These representatives, elected by.osition for reform which has been presented the same constituency, almost invariably agree here for which we are without a precedent in and vote alike upon all questions of importance. the action of other State Conventions. There Why, then, could not one representative as is no constitution that has been recently adopted well express the wishes of the people of his in which they have incorporated this kind of a county as two, three, or four representatives? reform with reference to the popular branch of It is true that by reducing the ratio of reprethe Legislature. Sir, this branch of the legis- sentation it will be necessary in the more dative power should be brought as near to the sparsely settled parts of the State, to unite two people as practicable, and whenever we can get or more counties in the formation of representit so near that it will most completely reflect ative districts. Thisis the case now in the norththe popular will, then we shall be no more a- ern part of the State. But that part of the fected by those fluctuations and changes in State is rapidly increasinginpopulation. Norththe law of which the gentleman speaks. ern Indiana will soon control the legislation of Sir, I affirm that the number of Representa- the State, and I care not how soon, provided she tives can have nothing to do with either the obtains that control by the increase of her poppower or the disposition to pass either special ulation. or general laws. The change from seventy- Our representation must be based upon popfive Representatives and thirty-three or thirty- ulation, and not upon territory, and we should four Senators, to the present number in the two cheerfully submit to a temporary inconvenience branches of the Legislature was made, if I re- for the sake'of a permanent good. It is to be collect aright, during the session of 1835-6. hoped that this Convention will devise some The power to change again has, of course, ever means of preventing, in the future, so much lo-.since resided in the same body; but it is a little cal legislation as we have heretofore had. Yet remarkable that no petition from the people has under any provision we may adopt, that does ever yet been received by any member of all not unreasonably restrain the popular will, we the Legislatures, since that time, to decrease will have much local legislaticn if we retain the present number, and I take this fact as a a very numerous body of legislators. Unite a.sure indication that the people do not desire any larger number of interests in a representative diminution of the present number of Senators district, and your legislation will become more and Representatives. general in its character. Of course there must With reference to this cry of economy, be a reasonable limit to the reduction of the raI have heard it often, and I know its potency tio of representation. The representation.with many; but for myself, and with respect to should be large enough to unite in the General our duties here, I do not look with an eye single Assembly, a knowledge of the wants, the grievto expense; I look to results, and I would say, ances, and the interests of the people in every let all the results of the action of this body be part of the State, and it ought to be no larger as beneficial as possible, and whatever the nec- than is necessary for this purpose. It appears to essary expense is, let us cheerfully pay it. me that the representation proposed by the genMr. DUNN of Jefferson. If the amendment tleman from Vigo (Mr. Cookerly) is amply suf-,of the gentleman from Wells (Mr. Bascom) ficient for this purpose. One hundred men, ju-.should prevail, one of the first duties that will diciously selected, from every part of the State, devolve upon the Legislature, will be to provide will certainly possess information of every want for the erection of a new State House. The of the people that should be supplied by legisreport of the Auditor of State shows that we lation, of every grievance that should be redreshave about one hundred and eighty-six thousand sed, and of every interest that should be provoters, which would give us, according to the tected. gentleman's amendment, one hundred and Moreover, if we reduce the number of our eighty-six representatives and sixty-two Sena- legislators, the responsibility devolved upon each tors. It appears to me, Mr. Chairman, that legislator will be, to the same extent, increased. the interests of the State, instead of requiring This increased responsibility will, at least, an increase, require a considerable reduction of have two good effects-it will cause the people the number of members of each branch of the to be more careful whom they select as their -General Assembly. One argument urged in law-makers, and it will cause the law-makers to favor of a numerous representation is that there- be more careful and deliberate in their enactby the popular will can be more surely ascer- ments. With a reduced representation, both 267 houses will,hereafter, be deliberative assemblies, say a few words on the question now before and not what they have heretofore sometimes the committee. I shall oppose the amendment been, but little better than excited msbs. I of the gentleman from Wells, because that believe, sir, that this Convention, if, instead of would make the representation altogether too being composed cf one hundred and fifty mem- large. I shall also oppose the amendment of bers, had but fifty, that we would much sooner the gentleman from Vigo, (Mr. Cookerly,) beaccomplish the duty assigned to us, and that we cause that would reduce the number of Senators would be able to present to the people, a Con- and Representatives below a proper medium. stitution more worthy of their acceptance than The number proposed in the original resoluany we shall be able to agree upon, constituted tion I think about right. as we are. The argument of economy, so eloquently Mr. HARBOLT said, this question has inter- used by gentlemen on this floor, which I admit ested me as much as any other, that has been be- should be strictly observed at all times, has no fore this body. I have the honor to represent great weight upon my mind, as they attempt to as large a district as any in the State; and I apply it to this question. shall vote against reducing the number of rep- By a most decisive vote of the Convention it resentatives. I think the present number small has been determined that the General Assemenough. I admit the fact just alledged, that the bly shall be regularly convened but once in smaller the number of members, the less legis- two years, giving the Governor power to call lation. For, in suchi a case, the majority can an extra session in cases of emergency. It is much more easily and efficiently organize; and, now further pretty generally understood that having the power, they will just legislate for all local and special legislation, in this State, themselves and go home-and the minority is to be prohibited by a constitutional provision;.must look out for themselves. *and that hereafter general laws only will be Mr. READ of Monroe. It ought to be re- devised for the charter and regulation of all incollected that we have a larger Senate than any corporated companies which heretofore have other State in the Union. If you go to New taken up much of the time of the Legislature York, Pennsylvania, or Ohio, you will find their and at great expense to the State. Senates are all smaller than ours. New York Thus the abuses and much expense of legishas 32 senators: Pennsylvania has 36; and Ohio lation will be avoided without the necessity of has 36. I have observed also, that, by the restricting the representative principle. amended Constitution of Illinois, their Senate But:t was very correctly remarked by the is made to consist of only 25 members. I be- gentleman from Warrick. (Mr. Graham,) that lieve we ought to have a smaller number of economy is not the only thing to be regarded senators and representatives in this State: and in legislation-that it is not a primary, but only.1 rather incline to the adoption of the amend- an incidental consideration, and far below that ment of the gentleman from Vigo, (Mr. Cook- of a fair and full expression of the popular will.erly,) which proposes that the Senate shall con- when the whole people desire a voice in saying sist of 30 members. With reference to the w shall make the laws that are to protect House of Representatives, whenever the power heir lives, liberty, and property..of local legislation shall be restrained, there will Another view has been taken of this subject, be no need for small districts, and a larger num- to whih attah so e taen o ber of representatives. For, if the numberto hich attach some importance. should remain so large, then there would be but The people, who have at all times had the a smallpersonal responsibility resting upon each power to reduce the umber of our Senators member, where the number of representa- and Representatives, have never yet demanded tives consists of two, or three, or four hundred, such reduction; and members, coming up every as in some of the Eastern States, the amount year fresh from the people, have never yet conof the personal responsibility of each member sidered it necessary. must be very small. But, when you reduce the Why, then, I ask, should we feel called upon numben to 60 or 70, as the gentleman from Vigo at this time, when the State is increasing rapproposes, the personal responsibility will be idly in wealth and population, to reduce the much greater. We should not allow the num- number of our representation below the standber of the members of our legislative bodies to ard which has been deliberately fixed by the be reduced so low as to be exposed to that pecu- people, and acquiesced in for so long a time' liar influence which might control a small num- The original resolution proposes, also, that the ber of men. But thirty is so large a number, representation of the popular branch of the that this peculiar influence would not be likely Legislature shall never exceed one hundred to sway them more than a larger body. I am in members, and the Senate shall never exceed favor of reducing the number of senators from fifty members, leaving the right with the people 36 to 28, and the number of representatives from at any time to reduce those numbers below that 80 to 60. limit when it shall be thought necessary. This Mir. PEPPER of Crawford said, having offer- was the ground I took before my constituents; ed the original resolution, I deem it proper to my opponent went for a reduction of represent 268 ation, and in favor of fixing the number in the I ment offered by the gentleman from Vigo. I Constitution. advocated that proposition before I came here, I would warn gentlemen against stifling' before the people of the district which I have the voice of small counties. It may be, the the honor to represent. new Constitution will want all the votes it will Now, sir, let us inquire what is the great obbe able to get and if thinly settled districts are ject for which this Convention was called? I to be virtually deprived from having any voice do not - in the councils of the State, it may be the cause The CHAIRMAN observed that the doorof rejecting it. I hope it will be the pleasure keepers were distributing documents, which of the committee to adopt the resolution. created considerable "noise and confusion" in Mr. TAGUE. I shall favor the amendment the chamber. It was against the rules, and he of the gentleman from Vigo, for several reasons. should enforce them by ordering the door-keeper First, because, in my opinion, this is one of the to desist until gentlemen had finished debating. modes by which the public expenses are to be Mr. SHERROD. I was asking what were reduced, and the public burthens lightened. It the objects for the assembling of this Convenwill be found a very material annual reduction tion? I have never understood the object of of State expenses to reduce the number of the people in calling this body together, merely members of the Senate and House of Repre- to economize, although it should have considersentatives, as proposed. It is true that Repre- able weight. No, sir, we are sent here to frame sentatives comeup hereannually, and that men the organic law of the State. To frame a are always found who are willing to come. Constitution for the people of the State, in acAnd so, if the number was five hundred, there cordance with the advanced and still progressive would always be found enough to come up here spirit of the age; in accordance with the well and serve the State. But the question for the known wishes of the people; a Constitution that consideration of the Convention is, "Is it good will be approved and ratified by the people; a policy to have a large representation " For Constitution, sir, which will enable Indiana, one, sir, I think it is not. If it is in order, I unfettered by unpopular restrictions, to rise in have an amendment which I should like to of- her strength and beauty, and take her place fer. among the constellation of United States as a The PRESIDENT. It is not in order to star of the first magnitude. [Applause.] move an amendment at this time, but the gen- "History is philosophy teaching by example,"' tleman has a right to read it for information, if and I ask, what has the past history of Indiana he chooses. taught us?' What are its significant lessons, Mr. TAGUE. Then I will read it for the that should now be examples to her delegates information of the Convention. Of course it in Constitutional Convention assembled' Sir, will not suit the views of delegates from the if there ever was a State under the canopy of strong and populous counties. I propose to Heaven, cursed by too much legislation, it is amend so as to allow one Representative from the State of Indiana. [Cries of "consent, coneach county in the State, and thirty Senators sent,"] This being an admitted fact, we must from the whole State. [Cries of "consent,' look carefully and earnestly about us for a rem"consent."] Now, if we make a good Consti-, edy of the tendency to-excessive legislation. tution, it will remain the organic law of the To be brief, as I do not desire to make a State for many years-as the gentleman from speech, I contend that the proposition now bePosey remarked yesterday, for a quarter or a fore the Convention to reduce the number of half century. My object in offering the amend- members of the Senate and House of Reprement, is in view of the fact, that in the course sentatives, will not only greatly reduce the agof eight or ten years those counties which are gregate amount of annual State expenses, but now the weak ones of the State, those which it will have the effect to give tone and character are now thinly populated, may be as strong and to our legislative bodies. It will have the effect as populous as those which are regarded as the to bring up here the best men and the best strong counties now. Then there would be talent in the State. The people would have, still less objection to an apportionment of one what they greatly desire, more stability, and less Representative from each county in the State, change and vacillating in their legislation. and all must see the great advantages of such There is a disposition among the people to a system. cut off special legislation, and encourage only At the proper time I shall offer the amend- that which is general in its character. ment which I have just read. Without extending my remarks, I will simply Mr. SHERROD. Mr. PRESIDENT: I do not observe again, that I shall support the amendrise at this time for the purpose of making a ment of the gentleman from Vigo, believing speech. I simply desire, in a few words, to set that it will have the beneficial effects I have myself right, as to my position with regard to alluded to. the question now before the Convention, be- Mr. SHOUP asked, wlhat would be the ef-fore the people of the State. feet of calling for the previous question. I am in favor of, and shallsupport, the amend- The CHAIRMAN remarked, that the pre 269 vious question could not be demanded while the penditures, and a difference of two hundred dolConvention was in committee of the whole. lars per day, or of but one hundred dollars per Mr. SHOUP. My object is to bring this day in the cost of legislation, would amount, in unnecessary discussion to a close. I would be the course of years, to a vast aggregate. If we glad to see this question settled and disposed of, cut off local legislation and confine the Legislafor it is evident that no good can grow out of ture to the passing of bills of a general characthis discussion. Our minds are all made up, ter, there will still be less need of a large numand it is not probable that a week's argument ber of members of the House of Representatives. would change the action of a single member, But, sir, Ido not desire to discuss the question, relative to the present proposition. I would be and I find I am running into the very habit which the last man to suppress discussion or cut off I have condemned. debate, where it had a reasonable prospect of Mr. SMITH of Ripley. Like the gentlemen doing any good. But, sir, much time has been who have preceded me, Mr. Chairman, "I do consumed already, and if the Convention pro- not rise to make a speech, but merely to set ceeds to discuss at length every simple propo- myself right." [A laugh.] The gentleman sition thrown in here, and if every member who addressed us last, thought it strange that must take up the time of the body for the avow- this Convention was in a position where it ed purpose of setting himself right and defining could neither take the previous question, call his position, we shall have so voluminous a the ayes and noes, or adjourn. Now, sir, I wish journal that it will require a cart and yoke of to inform gentlemen who do not seem to reoxen to transport it over the State. There is fleet upon the effect of the Convention resolvanother way for gentlemen to set themselves ing itself into a committee of the whole, that right without consuming time. There are a for the first time since our organization we are large number here who are as anxious as other in the very position where all that is done and gentlemen, to have their position, upon impor- said, all the various propositions and amendtant questions, correctly understood at home, ments that are made, do not go upon the Jourbut they are unwillingto take up time in making nal. In my opinion we are now in the best po-.speeches, and they will not do it. They refrain sition to get along with business. We are not from speaking because, in their modest opinion building up an unwieldy journal, and although of themselves, they can do no good; but, sir, there may be considerable debate, it will be they will show their position by their votes, more apt to be to the point, and the sense of I agree in opinion with the gentleman from the Convention will be understood upon whatRipley (Mr. Smith). I am opposed to this prac- ever comes up. tice of preparing speeches by hunting up books, To the gentleman last on the floor, I wish to newspapers, &c. &c. The people, sir, are pre- remark that the question now before us is one pared for action; they knew what they wanted of the most important that we shall discuss dudone here before the election of delegates, and ring the session. And whyl It is important the delegates themselves know very well the to the people of Indiana that we should find and wishes of their constituents upon all the changes declare a just proportion between the number desired in the old Constitution; they are few of Representatives and the represented body. and simple. The people contemplated a change There seems to be a great variety of opinion as to the frequency of legislative sessions- among gentlemen, as to the proper number of -some wished triennial sessions, but the majority members of either branch of the Legislature.'were in favor of biennial sessions. Some Some consider that seventy members of the popchange was required with regard to the man- ular branch, and thirty members of the Senagement of the school fund, and a change with ate, to be the proper and just proportion; others regard to the position of the State toward bank- for larger combinations. For my own part, inginstitutions. All this it would be easy to and I have reflected considerably on the subsettle in a few weeks, if not in a few days, ject, I think that one hundred members of the provided there was less debating and more House of Representatives, and fifty Senators, is working. the best number we can devise-the number As to the question now before the Conven- which we now have under the old Constitution. tion, my own opinion is, that thirty Senators I think there are neither too many nor too few, and sixty Representatives, or near that number, but that a due proportion exists between the num-'would better subserve the interests of the State ber of Representatives and the great body of the than any other. The House might be made represented. The counties of the State are all larger without very serious detriment, perhaps, very nearly of the same size, and where there are to the character of the body. I would be wil- inequalities of population, emigration will very ling to compromise the matter with those who soon equalize the difference between the greater differ with me, so that there should be one Rep- and the lesser. If we continue the present apporresentative from each county in the State, and tionmentwe shall have, in the course of twentythirty Senators from the whole State. But a five or thirty years, a Representative from nearsmall number will suit the people of the State, ly every county in the State, and all know how because they wish to economize the public ex- much this is to be desired. But should the idea 270 of the gentleman from Jefferson prevail, to re- ing; but I shall endeavor to be brief, not only duce the number of members of the Legislature to save gentlemen from annoyance, but becauseat least one-third, we might have better qualified my business is not that of speech-making. I and more talented men sent up here-the Leg- should not have said a word, but for an allusion islature might, perhaps, be more dignified and to the county of Marion, which I, in part, repreable-but, sir, it would follow that all portions sent. It has been supposed, sir, that the counof the State, the whole people, would not be so ty of Marion, as well as other large countieg, well represented as now. I grant that the would probably be in favor of limited representability and talent of this Convention might be ation. This is a mistaken notion, I am sure. 1 concentrated in the heads of a few men, instead think I am safe in saying that the people of of this respectable body of one hundred and fif- Marion county will raise no objection to your ty members; but, though the few might possess sending up as many members of the General the talent and constitute a very brilliant body, Assembly as you please. [Laughter.] This they would not so accurately represent the may possibly be regarded as a matter of interviews, and feelings, and wishes of the whole est, rather than principle, by some; but, for one, people of Indiana, as does this large and truly I do not thus contemplate it. As one citizen of respectable body. Marion, and as a republican, I declare I am opA single remark as to the opinion that large posed to a small representation upon principle. bodies of men have a tendency to protract Leg- The gentleman from Ripley (Mr. Smith) has islative or Convention sessions. I say that th.e enumerated some of the advantages of a liberal reverse is true. I tell you that the very num- representation; but, in my opinion, he failed to bers and weight of this body will, if our labors mention the chief of those advantages. I refer are ever brought to a close, be the means of to the quality denominated HONESTY-yes, sir, terminating the session. There are at least nIONESTY-a commodity, I am sorry to say, not seventy Delegates on this floor, sir, who, if they as plentiful among politicians as it should be. had the disposition, could talk eternally.: I agree generally, sir, with the gentleman [Laughter.] Yes, sir, eternally! for I have had from Warrick (Mr. Graham). If I correctly my conception of the power of endurance of apprehended him, he maintained the old radical speakers wonderfully enlarged since I came republican doctrines upon this important subhere. [Renewed laughter.] I say there are ject. I have, therefore, less to say in my own seventy men who could thus occupy the time of behalf than I might otherwise consider necesthe Convention in making speeches, but they sary. I will merely add my testimony to his, will not do it; who, knowing the wishes and that I also believe that this State would not will of the people, and knowing how little any now be groaning under the present enormous' debate here will change the final result, will debt-the people would not have been cursed content themselves by voting. These men, sir, with so many acts of improvident and corrupt will throw their weight upon you by and by, "log-rolling" legislation, if the people had been when they think you have talkedenough. They represented in the General Assembly by twice will force the talking man into action by the the number which they could legally send. demand for the previous question. I am the more opposed to the fixing of a One gentleman has referred us to the Legis- small representative ratio in the Constitution, lature of Massachusetts, where the Lower House inasmuch as the Convention has already, by a has some five or six hundred members. But, sort of informal but imperative vote, decided to sir, these men are only allowed two and three reduce the power of the people over the State minute speeches-that length is all that is tol- Government at least one half, by declaring in erated-and there is as much expedition in leg- favor of biennial sessions of the General Assemislation as where the number of legislators is bly. Sir, I cannot help expressing my utter asmuch smaller. tonishment, even now, at the tremendous vote But the idea to be kept in view is this: there by which that question was carried. Nor have should be a fair proportion maintained between I been much less astonished, at hearing many the constituent body and the number of Repre-. members of this honorable body, in conversasentatives. The Representatives should be tion outside of the bar, admit freely, that in diffused over all parts of the State. I believe voting thus to razee the popular power, they had that the proper mean is now established, and voted not only against their own convictions, that it is best to adopt the number of one hund- but against the original principles of republired for the House and fifty for the Senate. You canism, and had no other excuse to offer than might dispense with the Senate altogether if the fact that they voted in accordance with the you thought proper. Greater men than I am wishes of their constituents, who desired to rid have proposed but a single legislative branch. themselves of the evils of bad legislation. Benjamin Franklin was opposed to having any No man is more conscious of those evils than such body as a Senate in the legislative depart- myself; no man is more anxious to remove and ment of the Federal Government. eradicate them. But I can assure your people, Mr. CHAPMAN. I desire, Mr. Chairman, sir, as I declared to mine, during the canvass, to say a few words upon the question now pend- that biennial sessions are not only impotent as 271 a remedy, but will rather tend to increase the and the financial affairs of the body politic conevil which we would avoid, by putting bad leg- trolled by a few men of undoubted personal islation beyond the reach of immediate correc- ability. Perhaps a class of the same men would tion. now desire to obtain a controlling influence The honorable and learned gentleman from over the vast commercial interests of the State!, Monroe, (Mr. Read,) has referred to the Sena- These gentlemen may well be in favor of a torial bodies of Massachusetts and other eastern small representation, because they may thus the States, as an exemplar in favor of limited rep- more easily direct its action in their own favor. resentation. But it appears to me that he over- Sir, the people themselves are in error in this looked some important features in their system. matter, and I, for one, will tell them so. I have In Massachusetts, particularly, the Senatorial known reputed "great men" who, no doubt, the qualification is based upon property. I refer people would have at one time trusted implicit-. you, sir, not only to the Constitution of that ly, and in whom I myself had great confidence. State for confirmation of this fact, but to the But did the people know their true character as speeches of Daniel Webster, who was a mere- well as I now do, they would agree with me, ber of its last Constitutional Convention, and that such men would do more appropriate serwho labored successfully to perpetuate the prop- vice in other than a legislative hall; they would erty basis of the Senatorial body. But when be more fitly employed in the southern region you look to the constitution of the House of of the State-in the hall at- [laughter, and Representatives, the aspect of the subject is cries of "consent."'] Talent and ability is one entirely changed. In no State are the people thing-integrity and honesty of purpose and more fully represented-the popular branch be- design, is quite a different one. ing perhaps the largest in the world, compara- Mr. Chairman, the philosophy of this matter tively, every town being entitled to a Repre- may be reduced almost to a single sentence.. sentative for each two hundred and fifty polls, Legislation is either a good or an evil, in the and being subject to a fine at the pleasure of abstract. If it be an absolute evil, we had betthe Legislature, if it fails to send up a Repre- ter abrogate the power to legislate altogether. sentation accordingly. In no State of the Even if the evil predominates over the good, Union are the people better governed; in no perhaps we should be justified in abrogating the State are the people better satisfied with their legislative department. But I have no doubt system of government. that the good has far exceeded the bad, improviAnother thing, almost equally important, was dent and reckless as our legislation has unalso overlooked. All the eastern States main- doubtedly been in times past. tain annual sessions. The people there, imbued It is not mere law-making that should be con — as they are with those "pilgrim-father" princi- idered in settling this question. There are othples which were the germ of our present politi- er things besides the absolute and direct good of cal system, would revolt at a proposition to legislation which are achieved by the assembling curtail their control over the laws, either by here of the Representatives of the people. abrogating annual sessions, or by any great re- Upon this point I refer gentlemen to some obduction in the number of their Representatives. servations made by Grimke, in his book upon They never yet have forgotten, that "in a mul- Free Institutions, who expresses my ideas bettitude of council there is safety." ter than I shall attempt to do for myself, thoughAnother gentleman (Mr. Dunn of Jefferson) I am not indebted to him for my opinions. has argued, that if we. ma Dunn of Jeers of R- Sir, political considerations are not alone inhas argued, that if we make the number of Rep- in these assemblaes of the peope's volved in these assemblages of the people's resentatives small, the people will seek out and entatie e arerofit the c send up men of greater talents and ability. Representatives We are profited by the ac This may possibly be true, Mr. Chairman, but it quisition of addtional kn lede, upon all sge strikes at the very vitals of republican govern- er interhnge of sentiment on sb ment! Talk about the ability of a few men to of public and private interest. Members of the ment! Talk about the ability of a few men to ssembly come up from all quarers of legislate for the State; tell me that by having Genea e y ce up rom all quarters o the State; they are improved by contact and twenty-five men in one branch of the General consultation, and retu to diffuse amont their Assembly and fifty in the other, we shall com-constin te stk f n ede - mand the best talent and political ability in the tained. Tis consideration lone, sir, ts almot State Then why not institute a "Council.oftained. This consideration alone, sir, is almost State! Then why not institute a " Council of enou determine the question, for this is, in enough to determine the question, for this is, in Ten"* at once, with the Governor at its head assembly of the the most enlarged sense, an assembly of the I, sir, have seen enough, even in my short people, and touches all their material interests. political experience, to convince me that the The professional classes well appreciate advansmaller the number of any legislative body, the tages of this character. The clergy have their easier is it to be controlled and managed by annual convocations, the medical profession sinister influences. I have seen the political their conventions and societies, and the law*See the History of the Venitian Republic, for an yers are continually commingling together in account of the terrible tyranny of the "Council of theirrespective circuits. Thusarethey strengthTen." ened by the intercommunication of ideas and 272 the results of experimental and practical knowl- their own money! The time consumed by the edge. But the great laboring mass of men have General Assembly in passing such an act might no such re-unions, and the nearest approxima- be a comparative evil; but the refusal to pass tion to them is the General Assembly, against it would inflict a positive evil upon the people which almost the entire weight of this Conven- interested. tion seems to be unrelentingly directed. According to my classification, sir, there are Sir, I confess that I have been utterly as- at least four distinct kinds of legislation, which tounded at some of the expressions which have have generally been confounded. I specify been directed against this popular department them thus: general legislation, local legislation, of the government. One gentleman has even special legislation, and bad legislation. You declared that "to increase the number of Repre- annot eradicate the evil principle in any of sentatives would be FATAL to the prosperity of these, either by biennial sessions, or by the rethe State!" Sir, a doctrine so monstrous as dduction of the representative ratio; but you may this declaration implies, might well be preachedincrease the evil, and render it more burdensome. You must apply a very different remein enslaved Hungary by the btcher Haynau, but some You must a a different re I confess my inexpressible astonishment to hear t dy from that which proposes a denial of the just it uttered in such a body, at such an era, and in rihts of any portion of the people. It is cosuch a country as our own. If that doctrine be paratvey easy to check bad and special Iegistrue, sir, we should be ready to say with Pope: lation, by adopting Constitutional rules of restraint. But if you would retain the good now "For forms of government let fools contest, That which is best administered is btest., effected by local legislation, and which I say the, people of every locality have a right to demand, Mr. Chairman, so important, fundamentaly, something nore than mere restriction, and 1do I regard these retrograde movements i n refer- hing different, is absolutely necessary. ence to full and frequent representation of the rrize your cou er Sir, you must re-organize your county governpeople, and of their control over the laws, and m ge the eoe te por to do ter through those laws the control of their officers, mn, and give the people te per t the so anti-republican do these movements seem to ncy o local le gislatio n Y the General me,in every aspect in which they can be viewed, nessity of locl lislation y th your pre that I assure you if we should do nothing worseu m d way wih yr ent boards of three county commissioners, and than this, I should feel doubtful about giving my make te legislatures respectable and re s make the local legislatures respectable and re-.sanction, as an individual voter, to the new Con-to each township at least one stitution which we propose to submit to the sponsible; giving to each township at least one 7stitution which we propose to submit to the' Representative in the county Legislature, and people. My hope is that we shall introduce one permittin the county board thus constituted to redeeming feature, permitting the people speedredeeming feature, permitting the people speed- m legislate upon all matters of local interest, unily to amend any error which we may commit, and which experience may demonstrate to n der the control of general laws, which should and which experience may demonstrate to them. apply to every county alike. Let the same reapply to every county alike. Let the same reMr. Chairman, I have heretofore found it so lations exist between the counties and the State difficult to get the floor that I feel inclined to which exists between the State and the Generkeep it a few moments longer, while I briefly al Government; and so regulate your general define my position upon the subject of legisla- statutes that they will operate upon these local tion. We have heard a great deal of complaint bodies as the Constitution of the State regulates about local legislation, and these complaints the action of the General Assembly. have brought us to most erroneous conclusions. I repeat, sir, again and again, that you cannot But local legislation, or legislation for localities, eradicate the evils of legislation by curtailing is not the positive evil which it is generally the power of the people to make their own laws,.supposed to be. Under our present sytsem it by the institution of biennial sessions, nor by the is absolutely necessary, in order to promote the reduction of Representatives. To arrive at areminterest and answer the rightful demands of the edy, we must reform our system, as I have sugpeople. I admit that this system is one of gen- gested; and in favor of it I have high authority eral inconvenience, but a remedy cannot be to back my own judgment. Mr. Jefferson, as found for this comparative evil by divesting the long ago as 1816, in his letter to Kercheval, people of the right to exercise the power, nor urged a reform very similar, and I refer gentleby refusing to pass such laws as they have a men to that letter for better information. If right to demand, for the promotion of their vari- this Convention should only adopt the reforms ous interests. For instance, sir, a bridge is there indicated, I should be well satisfied with wanted across White River, in this county; our the result of its labors. He proposed, as I propeople are not alone interested, though they pose, to leave all matters of local interest to the are chiefly so. Under your present system of immediate action of the people of the several legislation they must apply to the General As- counties,thro'their county legislatures.Thus may sembly to be allowed to build that bridge. you easily adjust your school system,your license Would it not be a denial of the exercise of their question, by which we are annoyed even here, just rights to refuse to pass a local act to grant and thus may the people of every county settle them permission to build such a bridge with all questions of local interest to themselves, as 273 they may see fit, and we shall be spared the making them simply courts of probate, and evil of having questions of police and morals abolishing the common law jurisdiction, and made the subject of partizan squabbles. Thus, merging the office of Judge and Clerk into one, and thus only, can you relieve the General As- an act appropriating one half of the two per sembly from the necessity of legislating for lo- cent fund to the Selma and Tennessee railroad. calities, as well as for the general interests of Among the former are plank road and rail road -the State. charters innumerable, divorces, relief &c. &c.; Bad and special legislation require different about twenty thousand miles of plank road have remedies, as I have already said. I have been been chartered. We trust this will not be the trying for several days, to introduce certain last of them. Constitutional rules upon this subject, but sit- The immense amount of local legislation will ting so far back as I do [Mr. Chapman's seat strike every one as a crying evil, that should be is at the farthest point from the Speaker's remedied. A great amount of money is spent chair.-Reporter.] I have not been able to catch in this way, that could be saved to the treasury, the eye of the president for that purpose. and applied to the payment of our pnblic debt. In support of my position, and as one evi- All these local matters could, by some law, be dence of the utility of annual instead of biennial left to the courts in the different counties with sessions, I would refer to two bills which were much more convenience to the public, than by hung up by the meeting of the last General the direct action of the Legislature. Assembly, and in which, it is supposed, the The entire business of the session should be State was interested to the amount of near forty accomplished in four or five weeks at the furthousand dollars. I mean the McGinley bill, thest; but instead of this, over a fourth of a the claim under which, I am told, the Supreme year is spent, mainly in legislating upon private Court, eight years ago, decided to be of no matters, in which the great public can have no validity either in law or equity, and of the Geor- interest." gia land bill, under which three hundred thou- Allow me, Mr. Chairman, to read another sand acres of land were sold for $1,000. The extract from a letter, written by a former citizen present Governor saw fit to interpose against of this State, now residing in Iowa. -these acts, which he could hardly have done butMO V O INN C OWA for the action in regard to them at the last ses- MO V N C1 IOWA. March 14, 1850. sion; and they remain for the investigation and consideration of the next General Assembly. ESSRS. EDITORS:;Similar instances might be easily multiplied, but As a native of Indiana, who I will not tire your patience. though exiled for a season, yet hopes to end I am aware, sir, that biennial sessions are ur- his days within her borders, I naturally feel inged upon us, by the example of several Southern terested in the discussions precedent to the for-'States, which have adopted them. They may mation of a new State Constitution. answer comparatively well for them, because Among other supposed reforms, already in their's is a stand-still position, compared with the controversy, I notice a proposition for biennial free States, whose interests are constantly sessions, instead of annual sessions of the Legchanging and progressing rapidly. I will sub- islature. There is in Indiana a popular prejumit testimony from one State in either section, dice in favor of a change of this sort, which I to show that the system in question does not shared when I came here, but which I now afford a remedy for the evils which you hope to think is not founded in considerations of propriderive from the adoption of the system in Indi- ety. The practical results of this system in the ana. I refer, for instance, to the action of the Constitution of Iowa, have not, as far as I have the last session of the Alabama Legislature, heard an expression of opinion, answered the whose sessions are biennial, and you will ob- expectations of its advocates. Take a few.serve that they complain of evils precisely sim- facts: I came here early in 1846, just in time to ilar to those of which we complain. The vote for the adoption of a new Constitution. Montgomery (Alabama) Gazette, commenting Since then we have had a session every winter upon the action of the last session, says: untillast, and we narrowly escaped having one "ALABAMA LEGISLATURE.-It is the longest then, it having been found necessary to have session of the Legislature on record —having last- a called sessions at one of the two constitutional edthree months andoneday. Upwards of four intervals which have since occurred. With hundred acts have been passed, and out of this their present experience on the subject, I have number there are only some dozen or two of a no doubt the people of Iows would decide, if the general nature, among the latter are the revenue matter was before them for decision, in favor of law; the free banking law, an act incorporating short annual sessions of the Legislature, in the Southern bank at Mobile, an act allowing preference to their present Constitutional prothe bank at Mobile to issue three dollars in pa- vision for biennial sessions." per for one in specie on hand, an act appropro- I have simply to add, sir, that having deterpriating sixty thousand dollars to re-build the mined in favor of biennial sessions, I trust we capitol, an act re-organizing the county courts, shall not go further, and in another direction 18 274 reduce, in a still greater degree, the power of upon the ballot box and upon the question of the people in the State Government, by redu- universal suffrage, and single representative discing the number of members composing the tricts, than upon the number of representatives. House of Representatives. It depends upon universal suffrage; and, if all Mr. STEVENSON. I have a few words to men are allowed to go to the ballot box, no matsay on this question, and but very few. I am ter whether the House of Representatives conin favor of reducing the number of senators sists of 100 members or of 70, all men will be and representatives, and I wish to answer one equally represented. We shall have nothing argument that has been made here, and which to fear, in that case, in regard to numbers. I has been repeated again and again; but which, do think that 75 would be a convenient number in my opinion, is entirely without force. Allu- for this Hall-that they will do the business just sion has been made, both by the gentleman from as well as a larger number, and, I further think Warrick, and the gentleman from Monroe, to the that this is a question which should be settled system of internal improvement, and it has been by the Convention, and settled now. It is a argued that if, at the time that system was adopt- question, I admit, of some importance to the ed, we had had a large rather than a small rep- smaller counties, and it has been well alluded to resentative body, we would not have been cursed by the gentleman from Jefferson. The differwith that system. So far from that being the ence in the size of the counties is not a great case, I think that if we had had a true appor- deal, and the difference between the relative tionment, it would have made no difference in numbers of their population will soon be very regard to that system, whether the representa- little. If, therefore, any inconvenience may be tive body had been large or small. The inter- experienced, as the gentleman from Jefferson nal improvement spirit was not a spirit which has said, it will only be temporary, and that the prevailed throughout the State,but was confined time will soon come when the southern counto a few counties, and I feel convinced that if ties will not have a greater population than the we had had a representation in the Legislature, northern counties. There is more enterprize in based upon numbers at the polls, that system the north than there is in the south, or than would never have been carried into operation. there is in the central, part of the State. Their Suppose.that the Legislature, previous to that enterprize, and their fertile soil, must soon place system being commenced, had been increased them, so far as numbers are concerned, upon an to double the number; what would have been equality with other counties. the effect? Would you not have had as many, So far as this question is concerned, I should in proportion, in favor of the system as you had be governed considerably by the amount which before 1 Unquestionably you would; and the will be saved to the State by a reduction of the argument, therefore, derived from this internal number of senators and representatives. improvement system, in favor of enlarging the In relation to the amendment offered by the legislative body, it appears to me amounts to gentleman frem Wells, I would simply remark, absolutely nothing at all. that it is impossible to foresee how large a body Then, sir, it appears to me that the great of Senators and Representatives we should question now to be disposed of, is, whether leg- have in a short time, owing to the probability of islation can be done as well by a small body, our having a large increase of population. If consisting of from 70 to 75 members, as it can we are to make a fixed number of inhabitants be by a body consisting of 100. That is the or voters the basis of representation, who can question. If we can ascertain that legislation see to what extent that basis may be enlarged can be as well done by the smaller number, ev- in a very short time? I repeat, that if the Conery gentleman will undoubtedly be ready to re- vention is to take action on this question, I duce the number, on the score of economy. My should be decidedly in favor of the number of own opinion on this subject is, that, so far as seventy-five; and if the number is to be still the interests of the State are concerned, they further diminished, I would rather diminish it in will be affected but very little either way, wheth- the Senate than in the House of Representaer the House of Representatives shall consist of tives; and I believe this course would better 75 members or 100 members, and still less do I suit the small counties. Were I to offer any consider that the interests of the State will be amendment, I would prefer to have seventy-five affected by the difference between the number members in the House of Representatives, and of 70 and that of 75. I believe that you will twenty-five in the Senate. I, however, am not have as good legislation from the number of 100 particular; but, looking to the interests of the representatives, as you will from 75, and as good State, I believe that all the purposes of legislafrom the latter number as from the former; and, tion can be accomplished fully as well by seventy if that proposition be true, the whole question as by a hundred Representatives. I trust that resolves itself into one of economy. Sir, the the committee will settle this question; and I rights, the liberties, the interests of the people see no reason why it may not be as well settled of Indiana, do not depend upon the question of now as at any other time. We have already whether we shall have in our legislative hall, spent much time in this debate, and I think,'75 or 100 representatives. They depend more with the view of settling this question at once, 275 we had better, if need be, occupy the day in And what is the principle of which that is an the discussion of it than to take it up again. illustration? It is that the interests of the peoMr. SMITH of Scott. As I have not occu- pie in the popular branch of the Legislature pied much of the time of the Convention thus should be fully represented; and that, I think, far, in the discussion of the questions which is the principle that should govern us here. As have been under consideration, I will now ask to the Senatoriai branch, I cannot see any nepermission to trespass upon the attention of the cessity for making that very extensive; but the committee for a few moments, while I offer a popular branch of the Legislature, in which the verv few remarks on the subject under debate. will of the people is to be expressed, it seems This is a question of great importance, and one to me, should be so large as fairly to represent in which the whole people of the State are in- the will of the people, that that will may beterested. I think, therefore, that it is one on come the law of the land. which it is very desirable to have a full expres- Now in regard to what should be the actual sion of opinion on the part of the members of number of the House of Representatives, the the Convention. Different positions have been only question is, whether a correct expression taken by delegates on this floor; and it seems could be given to the will of the people, as to me, from the remarks that have been made well through the medium of seventy-five memby some of the gentlemen here, that they have bers as through that of a hundred. On that looked, perhaps, rather to the mere object of question, I give it as my opinion, that it could gratifying their immediate constituents, than to not; and, that I think the number of one hundthe general interests of the State. I know it red members is small enough-as small a numis too apt to be the case, that when a man pre- her as the people of the State could well rely sents himself before the people as a candidate upon. fer public favor, he will promise his constitu- Reference has been made to the distress which ents everything which may suit their wishes; the State has suffered in consequence of former and it appears to me that the idea of curtailing legislation, but certainly no argument can be the expenses of the Legislature has, in some deducible from that to show that we ought to measure, had its origin in that feeling. "Econ- diminish the number of the people's representaomy" has, in many parts of the State, been tives. It has been said that if you make the made a great cry, in order to succeed in elec- number smaller, you will have a greater concentions. I cannot but think, that when we come tration of talent. Let me ask who was it that to the discussion of a great question like this, propounded those very measures which have we should come to the very principle on which been complained of, but those who, at the time, the general government is sustained. If we were said to be the most talented men of the are to be governed by the principle of legisla- State. Was it the honest hard-working farmer tion, then we should come to that ques- who recommended these schemes of internal tion, and to that alone. I do not suppose that improvement which brought so much distress there are many gentlemen here who would con- upon the country? Not at all; and if, by seektend for the opinion that we should have a repre- ing to diminish the number of representatives, sentation based upon extent of territory rather you are desirous of excluding them from the than upon numerical strength; but if we are to halls of legislation, for the purpose of introduchave a representative from each county, I do ing the " talent " of the State, I should be most not know that that would be going too far. decidedly opposed to it. These, it is true, are The true principle, however, on which represent- the men who never make speeches, but are alation should be based, is the numerical strength ways ready to give their votes, and that promptof the people-that every Representative should ly, whenever an important question is to be derepresent a certain number. If that were made cided; and they are, therefore, as capable of the basis of apportionment, I think a Legisla- representing the will of the people as those ture so constituted would, more nearly than by who spend hours of the time of a legislative any other mode, arrive at and represent the body in making speeches. They are in general minds and wishes of the people. For what are the right men. They mingle with the people; legislators sent here? It is that they may they become acquainted with their wants; and, represent the interests and wishes of the people, when a question comes to the vote, they underand not that a Representative should represent stand the matter, and are as capable of expressso much territory. The territory of the State ing the will of the people, as those who claim will doubtless be properly attended to if the to be the talented men, either in the popular or wishes of the people are represented. senatorial branch of the Legislature. Let us Now, we have heard it remarked, that, on then give the people full representation here; principles of economy, we should have large let us give them small districts, so that when a election districts. Precedents have been pre- law is to be placed upon your statute books, it sented to us here; and my learned friend from may be the will of the whole people, and not of Monroe has adduced the State of Massachusetts, a mere section. I am in favor of the principle with a Representative body of over five hun- of representative government to its fullest exred members and a Senate not exceeding forty. tent, so that the people, and their different in 276 terests, in every locality,may be fully represent- was at all necessary to multiply section upon ed. If you make this a question, depending section upon the same subject. upon territory of some fifty miles square, and The PRESIDENT stated, that the several diminish the number of representatives to some committees might have different branches of the seventy or seventy-five, you will find that one same subject under consideration, and that they voice cannot fairly represent such a locality. were not necessarily restricted to report only Hence, I am of opinion that the number, in the on those subjects specially referred to them. popular branch of the Legislature, should not be They might decide for themselves what subjects below one hundred, and that the districts should appropriately came under their consideration. be so small that everything appertaining to their Mr. MORRISON of Marion. The last secbest interests may be fairly represented on this tion of the report, just presented, relative to the floor. You will then have a representative gov- veto power, was a subject that was specially reernment that will truly represent the people's ferred to the committee on the executive. will; you will have a class of men who, if they Mr. CLARK of Tippecanoe remarked, that are not able to make flaming speeches, will at the Convention had a right to refer the same all times be ready to give correct votes, subject to different committees if they chose to Mr. COOKERLY moved so to modify the i do so. The committees were bound to report amendment as to make the numbers seventy- upon them, and then the Convention could defive in the House of Representatives, and twen- cide between the reports, and adopt that which ty-five in the Senate. they considered the best. The modification was accepted by the mover ELECTION OF STATE OFFICERS. of the amendment. X The order of the day being the sections of Mr. KILGORE remarked, that as this was a Mr. KI E remarke, that as this was a the new Constitution, reported Oct. 25, by Mr. very important question, and as it was desirable of Clark, chairman of the committee "on Read of Clark, chairman of the committee "on to have the sentiments of the Convention fully te officers oter than executive and judicielicited upon the subject, he would move that ary," wacs then tak n executive and udiciby the committee now rise andreport progress, and t Convention, and read a second time. k ea tsi t-rwthe Convention, and read a second time. ask leave to sit again to-morrow. The article reads as follows: The committee then rose and reported pro- ARTICLE. gress, and asked leave to sit again. Leave was granted. SECTION -. A Secretary of State shall be On motion, the Convention then adjourned chosen by the qualified electors, and be commisuntil to-morrow morning at 9 o'clock. sioned by the Governor for two years, or until a new Secretary be elected and qualified: Pro__________^! vided, That no person shall be eligible to the office of Secretary of State more than four years THURSDAY, OCT. 31,1850. 1 in any term of six years. He shall keep a fair The Convention met, pursuant to adjourn- I register, and attest all the official acts and proment. i ceedings of the Governor; and shall, when rePrayer by the Rquired, lay the same, and all papers, minutes, Prayer by the Rev. Mr. JAMESON. | ^ ^ and vouches relative thereto, before either House The journal of yesterday was read and approved. X of the General Assembly, and shall perform proved. Several petitions were presented.j such other duties as may be enjoined himn by Several petitions were presented. ilaw. Reports were made by, various committees.la Resolutions were presented, and communica- SECTION. -There shallbe chosen by the qual tions submitted. All of which were read and ified electors, and commissioned by the Governappropriately disposed of. wc wea or, a Treasurer and Auditor, whose powers and appropriateld. duties shall be prescribed by law, and who shall INQUIRY. hold their office for two years and until their Mr. MORRISON of Marion said, he desired successors be elected and qualified: Provided, to inquire whether different committees could That no person shall be eligible to the office of report upon the same subject matter, and, also, Treasurer or Auditor more than four years in if it was to be understood as the sense of the any term of six years. Convention that each committee could report Mr. SHOUP moved to amend the first secupon subjects not referred to them by the Con- tion by striking out from the second line the ventionT He had discovered in the report from word "two" and inserting the word "four." He the committee on the legislative department said that it must be evident to the minds of all that that committee had reported upon matters the members of the Convention that there would which, by a vote of the Convention, had been be very few gentlemen competent to discharge referred to'the executive committee. The last I the duties of the office who would be willingto section of that report in particular embraced a remove from a remote part of the State to occusubject that had been referred to the committee py a situation here for only two years. Unless on the executive, which committee was about a longer period for remaining here, say four t make theirreport. He did not know that it years, was fixed upon, the office would almost 277 necessarily have to be filled by residents of In- He perceived that the committee's report on dianapolis. this question contained a clause not in the presMr. READ of Clark stated, that the com- ent Constitution, viz.: that the Secretary of mittee on state officers took this view of the State shall be eligible to the office of secretary question. They considered that the people not more than four years in one term of six were desirous of having the terms of elections years. I do not know, said Mr. 0., the reasons short, and they believed, also, that in the new which actuated the committee in inserting this Constitution provision would be made for bien- provision, but I imagine they may have been, in nial sessions, and that the Governor's tenure of part, that it is a common thing, and an undeoffice would be fixed at two years. He would sirable thing, that an executive officer should suggest further to the gentleman from Franklin take up a large portion of his time, toward the (Mr. Shoup) that in ninety-seven cases out of a close of his term of service, in electioneering hundred those individuals who held the office for a renewal of office, instead of attending to for two years would undoubtedly, if they dis- the duties of his office. They may have concharged their duty faithfully during that period, sidered, that such a clause was presenting be re-elected. The more frequently these elec- temptation to the public officers to squander tions came before the people the more faithfully their time. It was a notorious fact that many would the incumbents of office administer their of the public officers did thus spend the latter necessary duties. portion of their terms of office, in electioneerMr. HALL said that he hoped the motion of ing for a renewal of them. If they made the the gentleman from Franklin (Mr. Shoup) length of the Secretary's term four years, and would prevail. He was in favor of the one suffered the proviso to remain in the section as term principle. At the proper time he would it then stood, there would then be no renewal move to amend the article under consideration, of office until after the term of six years had so as to render the Secretary ineligible to hold expired, and of course no temptation to divert the office for more than four years out of time which belongs to the public, to purposes eight. of private advancement. The doctrine of rotation in office had been But it is said that if we pursue this policy of discussed, to some extent, in that portion of the non-re-eligibility in regard to this office, we country which he had the honor, in part, to rep- must do so also in regard to all others. That resent; and it received general favor from the does not follow. I have seen no such proposal people. When an officer is eligible to be re- in regard to members of the Legislature. No elected, much of his time is often used to se- such reasons occur, in their case. As members cure his re-election. This is not all: most of- of a deliberative body, they serve but some ficers have some patronage-some favors to be- weeks or months out of each year. They have stow, or some lenity to grant-some more, some time of their own to canvass after each session, less-but whatever they have, it is all given to to render account of their stewardship, and resecure a re-election. This is all wrong-it is ceive fresh instructions for the future. This is anti-republican. Let officers be elected for a right and useful. Short terms, renewed as often short period-not long enough to cause them to as the people see fit to renew them, are approforget the occupation they were pursuing when priate in this case. elected-and when their term of office shall But we are speaking now of executive offihave expired, they can return to their former cers, not of legislative; of men whose whole business and pursue it. But if you keep a man time belongs to the State under which they are in office for a great length of time, and then turn commissioned. And it may well be a question him out, he has been taught to depend on the whether we ought to put such officers, at the perquisites of his office so long for a support, close of each second year, in the position either that he is rendered incapable of following any to loose their chance of a re-election, or to deoccupation whatever. He consequently be- vote time and thought-perhaps to travel all comes a mere drone in the body politic. over the State-in order to put themselves on This is more especially applicable to the of- the same vantage ground as others who may fice of treasurer, and such offices as have the seek to supplant and replace them. control of public funds. There is nothing more Mr. FOSTER said, that the Convention had corrupting than money. The temptation to use decided, by an almost unanimous vote, to have public iunds, or to allow special friends to use biennial session sof the Legislature, and it was them, is strong-often too strong to be resisted. to be presumed that the committee on the tenAn oath, however strong it may be, is no guar- ure of office would fix the term of Representaantee that public funds will not be misapplied. tives to two years, and that of Senators to four The only safe remedy is, strict accountability, years. He did not know what the Convention short term of office, and ineligibility. would fix the term of office of the Lieut. GovMr. OWEN remarked, that he should vote ernor at: he presumed, however, at four years. for the amendment of the gentleman from Under these circumstances, the Auditor and Franklin, (Mr. Shoup,) for reasons that had not Treasurer being equally important officers, he yet been submitted. thought they should be elected for the same 278 time. He professed to be a democrat, and he did not perform his duty with fideiity, there was desired to see a certain democratic principle es- greater reason why, at the expiration of the two tablished-one much talked about, though but years' term, he should retire from his office. seldom carried out-and that principle was rota- For this reason they had cut down the terms of tion in office. It was a good democratic doc- service of the various officers to two years. trine, but the worst of it was, it was seldom The gentleman from Franklin (Mr. Shoup) carried out. For one, he proposed that officers had stated in support of his amendment that if should be elected for a certain term of office, the term of this office was fixed at two years, and after that term had expired, that they should those who resided about the Seat of Government then be ineligible for re-election; but to elect only could or would endeavor to obtain it. them but for two years, with a clause of re- This idea was somewhat new to him. He eTttion for another two years out of six, he had always thought, and he saw no reason now was opposed to. He did not think that the term te change that opinion, that there were at least of office of the representatives and senators twenty candidates for every office to be filled, should be such that they should be ineligible, from every part of the State. There were plenbut he thought all administrative officers should ty of men competent to fill this office if it were be so. He should, therefore, vote for the amend- only to be held for two years, to be had from ment of the gentleman from Franklin (Mr. every portion of the State. If any gentleman Shoup.) could tell him of anl office of profit in Indiana Mr. BRACKEN observed, that he was in that had to go begging for the want of compehopes the word " two" would not be stricken tent applicants to fill it, he would give the quesout and the word "four" inserted. It was an tion up at once. understood matter in the committee that the A MEMBER. President judges. committee on executive officers were not to re- Mr. BRACKEN. Well, that is an instance, port terms of office of four years duration either but even tle office of president judge does not for the governor or any of the State officers. go begging in our part of the State. He thought This was the more requisite if the principle at any rate that the judiciary was very well repof biennial sessions of the Legislature was to resented in the Convention. An office of no be carried out. kind would go begging in this State, for the One of the reasons assigned by the gentle- people thought it honor as well as profit to fill man from Marion (Mr. Morrison) why the Sec- them. He was in favor of the shortest term of retary of State should serve four years, was, office, so that the incumbents could go back to that it was an office of importance, requiring the people for re-election, and if they had much experience for the incumbent to perform served faithfully there would not be much diflihis duties aright-but unfortunately before he culty in getting re-elected. was done he stated that there was no opportu- The question being upon the adoption of the nity for mis-feasance, mal-feasance, ornon-feas- amendment of the gentleman from Franklin, ance in holding that office, and he (Mr. B.) (Mr. Shoup,) the yeas and nays were demandthought that both statements could not be cor- ed, and, being ordered, were taken]with the folrect. If it was the fact that this officer was in- lowing result: yeas 76, nays 56. capable of going wrong, where was the ne- Those voting in the affirmative were Messrs. cessity of lengthening the term of office, and Alexander, Badger, Barbour, Berry, Blythe, Borwhy not throw it back more frequently into den, Bourne, Bowers, Bright, Bryant, Butler, the hands of the people! The gentleman from Carr, Clark of Hamilton, Clark of Tippecanoe, Monroe (Mr. Foster) had affirmed he was a Cole, Cookerly, Crawford, Crumbacker, Davis democrat, and in favor of the democratic princi- of Madison, Davis of Parke, Dunn of Perry, pie of rotation in office; then why not throw &c., Edmonston, Farrow, Foley, Foster, Garthe election of these officers more frequently vin, Graham of Miami, Graham of Warrick, into the hands of the people, and then if they Gregg, Hall, Holliday, Harbolt, Helmer, Henwere worthy and capable, they could be re- dricks, Hitt, Hogin, Hovey, Howe, Huff, Jones, elected' Kent, Kinley, Lockhart, Logan, May, Miller of Mr. FOSTER begged leave to correct the Clinton, Miller of Gibson, Milroy, Mooney, gentleman from Rush. In his remarks he had Morgan,Morrison of Marion, Morrison of Washspoken of ineligibility to office and in favor of a ington, Murray, Nave, Newman, Nofsinger, Owfixed term of office, after which the candidate en, Pepper of Crawford, Pettit, Read of Monshould be ineligible to re-election. roe, Ristine, Robinson, Schoonover, Shannon, Mr. BRACKEN said, he understood the true Sherrod, Shoup, Sims, Snook, Spann, Steele, democratic doctrine to be that the people were Stevenson, Terry, Watts, Work, Wunderlich, the sovereigns, and that they had a right to elect Mr. President-76. whoever they pleased, as often as they pleased, Those voting in the negative were, to do their business. If the officer performed Messrs. Allen,Balingall, Bascom, Beach, Beehis duty faithfully there was no reason why the son, Biddle, Bracken, Carter, Chapman, Chenpeople should be prohibited from rewarding him owith, Coats, Colfax, Dick, Dobson, Duzan, with a re-election; and if, on the contrary, he Fisher, Frisbie, Gordon, Haddon, Hamilton, Har 279 din, Hawkins, Helm, Holman, Johnson, Kendall the people are incompetent to select their pubof Warren, Kilgore, Maguire, March, Mather, lie agents. Mathis, McClelland, McFarland, McLean, Mil- It is true, sir, that the people, without the reler of Fulton, Moore, Mowrer, Niles, Prather, striction, would have the power to elect any inRariden, Read of Clarke, Smiley, Smith of Rip- dividual over the incumbent; but, sir, it is a powley, Smith of Scott, Tague,Tannehill, Thomas, er seldom exercised in those offices, the tenure Thornton, Trimbly, Vanbenthusen, Walpole, ofwhieh is limited to two succeeding terms, Wheeler, Wiley, Wolfe, Yocum-56. Those who have held the office for one term So the amendment was adopted. have a decided advantage over their competiThe question recurring upon the adoption of tors, for if they have discharged their duty, their the original amendment- election is almost certain. The ground taken Mr. GRAHAM of Warrick moved to amend by the incumbent and his friends is this: he has by striking out the word "six" on the fourth faithfully and honestly discharged the duties of line, and inserting the word "eight." his office, and can serve but one term more, Mr. HOVELY moved to amend the amend- therefore he should be re-elected. He and his ment offered by the gentleman from Warrick fiends urge that the selecting of any other over by striking out all after the word "Provided," him would be a reflection upon his character as the third and fourth lines.an individual, and his acts as an officer. WherThe question being taken on the amendment ever that false issue is made before the people, of the gentleman from Posey (Mr. Hovey) to the incumbent, if he has half discharged the duamendmentof the gentleman from Waosey( H r-) ties of his office, is sure of his re-election. This the amendment of the gentleman from War- is the case, sir, with sheriffs. They can serve rick, (Mr. Graham) it was not agreed:to. And does not the docThe question recurring upon the adoption of but four tears in s. s the amendment offered by the gentleman from trne now preva that sherffshave a pre-empWarrick (Mr. Graham) to the original amend- tion right to the second term? Yes, more, sir, v en" 3that they have the right to select their succesment, sors. And that successor frequently, when his Mr. SHOUP moved to amend the amendment second term is about to expire, throws the offered by the gentleman from Warrick, by winding up of his official business into the striking out the word "four" on the fourth line hands of the old sheriff, so that he will be his and inserting the word "eight," and also by succesor. By this pre-emption right to a secstrikingout the word"six" on the same line, ond term, and the election of a deputy, the ofand inserting the word "eight." fice of sheriff is frequently kept in two families The question being taken on the amendment for a great number of years. I wish, sir, to offered by the gentleman from Franklin (Mr. strike at the root of that false issue that is too Shoup) to the amendment offered by the gentle- frequently made before the people by officeman from Warrick, (Mr. Graham,) holders. They ask the people to endorse their It was not agreed to. conduct as public officers, which, they say, can The question then recurring upon the adop-only be done by being re-elected. Such an tion of the amendment offered by the gentleman issue I want to prevent. If they have faithful from Warrick, (Mr. Graham,) ly and honestly discharged the duties of their Mr. GRAHAM said, perhaps it is necessary offices, they have done nothing more than they for me to say a few words with reference to the were sworn to do. amendment I have offered. I desire to have a fixed tenure of office. Then, The section as amended makes the term of if after the time of ineligibility has expired, the office of Secretary of State four years, insteadof former incumbent desires to come again before two, as reported by the committee; and for the the people, he can do so. And if his former purpose of carrying out the principle of rotation services have been as beneficial to the people in office, I have offered my amendment. I pro- as he would have them believe, he will certainpose, sir, that the Secretary of State shall only ly succeed. In view, then, of breaking up this be eligible to the office four years, in any term pre-emption right to re-election, and for the of eight years. The amendment to my amend- purpose of making all elections equal, I hope ment, proposed to make him eligible eight years my amendment will prevail. in any term of twelve years. In other words The question was then taken upon the amendhe may be elected for two succeeding terms of ment to the original amendment, offered by the four years each. If this amendment prevails, it gentleman from Warrick, (Mr. Graham,) and it will be, in my opinion, equivalent, in a large ma- was adopted. jority of cases, to extending the tenure of this Mr. MILROY moved to amend by adding afoffice to a term of eight years. I have as much ter the word "electors," in the first line, the confidence in the ability of the people to select words, "of the State." their own officers, as any gentleman in this The question was taken upon the amendment, Convention, and cannot, for the life of me, come and it was not agreed to. to the conclusion which some gentlemen have, Mr. KENT moved to amend by striking out that this restriction originates from a belief that the word "and," in the 6th line, between the 280 words " same " and" all," and inserting the word reference to eligibility or ineligibility; for I am: "with." utterly opposed to the policy of conferring of — The question was taken upon the amendment, fice until old age makes a man unfit for it. and it was not agreed to. This rule of eligibility says to the people, (in Mr. PETTIT. I do not know but I shall clap-trap style,) that they shall not choose whom. come under the supervision of the smoothing they please to office: and they will not refuse a iron committee, with reference to my words, man his second election, because he has spent phrases, &c., but I will propose the following so much time electioneering, and because he amendment: Insert the word "upon," in the 8th has done his duty, and all that. On the other line, between the word "enjoined" and the hand, if you make the officer ineligible, it will word" him," so that it will read, " and shall per- have a still worse effect. If you elect a man form such other duties as shall be enjoined upon for two or four years, and say to him, you shall him by law." hold your office so long, but under any circumThe amendment was adopted by unanimous stances, however faithful and competent you, consent. may prove yourself to be, you shall not have the _Mr. NEWMAN proposed to amend by strik- place again; this would have a tendency to proing out the fifth, sixth, and seventh lines, of the duce a stupor, lethargy, negligence, and want of section, and the words "shall" and "other," in readiness to serve the people in his office, the eighth line, so that it will read, " He shall which ought not to be tolerated in any officer. perform such duties as may be enjoined upon Sir, it is humiliating to place a man in such a him by law." condition. Let gentlemen consider how it The amendment was adopted. would operate upon their own minds, if they felt Mr. NAVE proposed to amend by adding, at that their place in this Convention was the last the end of the eighth line, these words, "but favor they were to receive from their constitushall not receive any perquisites therefor." ents. Who would not say that such a place is Mr. DOBSON. That will be embraced in beneath the aspirations of an honorable and another section, fixing compensation. high-minded man. Mr. NAVE withdrew his amendment. Sir, I despise and spurn the principle. I: And then the first section, as amended, was maintain that you will have better officers by adopted by unanimous consent. holding out the assurance that if their conduct The second section was read by the Secreta- shall undergo the proper scrutiny of time, their ry, as follows: services shall be appreciated. Sir, if you preSEC. -. There shall be chosen by the quali- vent the eligibility of your officers, you take fled electors, and commissioned by the Gover- away their amiability, and stifle their better nor, a Treasurer and Auditor,whose powers and feelings, and you curtail the rights of the peoduties shall be prescribed by law, and who shall ple. To such a principle I never will give my hold their office for two years and until their sanction. I don't know but, that with refersuccessors be elected and qualified: Provided, ence to judicial officers, I would say, that after that no person shall be eligible to the office of a man has become exceedingly old, he should Treasurer or Auditor more than four years in not be continued in the place of judge. I do any term of six years. not know but I would be willing to say, that the Mr. CARR proposed to amend the section by judges of the supreme court and of the circuit striking out the word " two," in the third line, courts should not be elected after they had and inserting in lieu thereof, the word "four;" passed a certain age-say sixty years. Because, so that it will read, "who shall hold their office there is a time when men decay, as well as for four years." when they must be young. And since the time Mr. PETTIT. I hope this amendment will or the tenure of these offices is commonly of conprevail, in order that there may be uniformity siderable length, I don't know but that it would in the term of all the executive officers. There be proper for the peolpe to put such a check can be but little doubt that the Convention will upon them. There is another extreme to which fix the Gubernatorial term of service at four this rule applies. We say that a man shall not years: the term of the Secretary of State has hold office until he is twenty-one, and that he already been fixed at four years; and the Treas- shall not be a senator till he is twenty-five. T urer and Auditor, who have control of the mon- think, then, there might be just as much proetary affairs of the State, are officers, in some priety in saying that a man shall not hold office sense, ministerial to the Governor; that is, they after he arrives at a certain age, or after he shall belong to the executive department, as well as have become a child again. Once a man, and the Secretary of State; and for this reason, it twice a child, you know. While I would be seems to me, they should all hold their offices willing to do this, I would place no restrictions for precisely the same length of time. They upon the people. I would not damp the laudawill be elected at the same time, entertaining ble ambition nor take away the spirit of accomaimilar sentiments and views, and they should modation in the officer, which he would natugo out at the same time. I think it is expedient rally cultivate to induce the people to elect him to make the term as short as possible, without again. The prospect of a re-election causes a; 281 man to desire to be acceptable again to those the first, second, or third years; but in the who have confided in him, and this is often the fourth year, having two years of revenue in his greatest incentive to the faithful discharge of hands without the supervision of the Legislathe proper functions and duties of his office. ture, he might venture upon a speculation, Mr. DOBSON. I hope the amendment will which he would have well matured in his mind. not prevail. I voted against the same term He might take two hundred, or three hundred when proposed for the Secretary of State. thousand dollars, or even fifty thousand, of the And because the Treasurer controls, annually, public money, and entrust it to some cousin of some eight hundred thousand dollars of the pub- his, to go into a little speculation. He don't lic money-which in four years amounts to near- intend to steal the public money by any means; ly two millions-I am not willing that he should but only to let his relative make a speculation, have so long a term as four years. Mr. Presi- in which he will share pretty largely in the dent, we are only commencing to form a Con- profits, and then he will put the money back stitution, under which the Legislature is to meet into the Treasury. This is his serious and setbut once in two years; then it is plain that with tled purpose and intention; but by some casuthe present amount of revenue, these officers alty of trade which could not be foreseen, the will control nearly seventeen hundred thousand speculation proves a failure, the money is gone, dollars in the term of two years; and by ex- his reputation is gone, and his securities are tending their term to four years, we shall put I ruined. into their hands the control of upwards of three With regard to the gentleman's notion of one millions of dollars. When we make these cal- term of service, and the ineligibility clause of culations, it seems to me that the term of four the section under consideration, I would say to years would be too long, and the temptation the gentleman from Tippecanoe, we are not gowould be too great. I do not care what gen- ing to disqualify a man for office. The section tiemen say about being treated courteously by does not propose to disfranchise the officer, and a public officer; I would throw around him all coudemn him to perpetual obscurity and rethose guards which should most securely deliver tiracy. We are only going to say to him, if he him from temptation. It might be, perchance, shall make a good officer during the two or four that the Treasurer of State would come here years of his term, "Though you cannot conpoor; and it might be all right with him at tinue in that office, sir, yet we can give you home. But when he gets here, at the seat of some other if you desire it." -We do not proGovernment, places himself in a good house, pose to disqualify these officers at all for holdhas money in his possession, and goes to the j ing any other office. We do not, in this way, Governor's levees, he begins to think, and re- propose to disqualify a man for the office of flections something like these come over his Governor, or United States Senator, or any mind in the midnight hour: "Why should I be other place to which he may aspire. But we without riches l I wish I had money. I was want these officers to discharge the public trusts contented at home, but here I am not. I can- confided to them, for our benefit as much as not give these splendid parties. I cannot ride their own; and at the end of their term we in those splendid carriages." Let such a want them to retire and give place to other man go four years as Treasurer of State, and men, who will look over and see that all is right. he may in this way get above what he can bear. | It is one of the most foolish things in the world Men are not infallible. But what would be to set a public officer to work to overhaul his the result of these midnight reflections? Will own proceedings. he steal the public money? No, sir, he is not Sir, I have had a lesson on this subject in going to steal. Gentlemen, I suppose, know the case of our sheriff. The law makes a what stealing is. We have all stolen a little sheriffre-eligible, and in every case where a in our lives, and have some knowledge of its man succeeds and is elected for one term, he practical workings. We all remember how it may be sure of the other term. This hardly was in our mill-boy days; we would not get ever fails. I might fearlessly ask any gentleover the fence to steal an apple from the middle man to point out a failure in any case where of the orchard which we had to pass by near the incumbent has got half wit. If he gets the the road. We would not do this at first, but first term he goes in for the second. That is only take a few near the way-side. But the the rule. I never saw it fail but once; and second year we became confident enough to then the officer had not sense enough to get over the fence, grab a few, and break. The manage his own papers. third year we would go carefully over the whole I do not want to restrain the people in the orchard, perhaps. But the fourth year, if the manner that the gentleman from Tippecanoe old man came to see what we were about, we intimates. But in framing the organic law of would stone him out of the orchard. Thus it the State, I understand that we are to adopt was that the stealing propensity carries men on and establish principles by which every man in step by step. And so it might be with your the State must be restrained more or less. I Treasurer, with an official term of four years. understand that we are to proceed in the afHe might not venture upon anything wrong for fairs of government upon something like sys 282 tern, otherwise why not say the people shall re-eligibility are consistent with republicanism; send up here as many senators and repressnta- but I shall oppose long terms with re-eligibility. tives as they please, and whoever they please, I do not consider that the demands of equity without limit or qualificationT If we fix a rule and justice could be secured to the people in for our government in one case, should not this way. There is something to be considered rules restrain us in every other case? with regard to the justice of this thing. SupMr. READ of Monroe. I have one or two pose, for example, that a man has a dozen sons; reasons to present, going to show why I am in he educates them without partiality, and they favor of short terms, and opposed to re-eligibility are all prepared and qualified to fill the offices for both State and county officers. Where the of government with credit. This work of the State officers remain s- long in office, there is father is certainly an advantage to the whole danger that they will organize and keep up a community. No man will deny this. But now, kind of State regency; such was the case in if you have long terms of office, there is no enthe State of New York for a long period of couragement for the parent so to prepare and time. The case is precisely the same with qualify his sons. A person in office has it in his reference to county officers. There, where the power to secure more friends, than a man out term of office is extended in the same hands, of office. This, I admit, is a fact; but if his there is danger that they will get up a kind of term is short, and he has filled up the measure court-house influence. This is the reason why of the expectations of the people, why, let him I am in favor of electing all officers for short be re-eligible. But, above all, let the people, periods of time, and preventing their re-eligi- at short periods, exercise their right of sovebility. I have another objection to long terms, reignty, and then all will be safe. I should be which applies especially to accounting and re- sorry to see this Convention set the precedent ceiving officers. I believe such officers should of long terms and re-eligibility. I am sure it not be continued long in their places, because would not work well. It would be much better one is intended to be a check upon the other. to say the term of office shall be for two years, When the same persons are continued in these and the officer shall be re-eligible. Then, if offices for a long time, they learn to place too the officer has done well, and the people choose much confidence in each other. In another to do so, let them re-elect him; or if not, let State I have known some serious defalcations- them, as they have a right to do, place another one case in my mind was for about seven thou- man in his room. I have said that I considered sand dollars-and it is seldom the case, where long terms of office to be inconsistent with the two officers have been long continued in their principles of republicanism; and why! Beplaces, that, even after their retirement, they cause the people, being sovereign, ought to exare not constrained to put some considerable ercise their sovereign power as often as it may balance of money quietly into the treasury. For be necessary and prudent for them so to do. this reason, sir, I shall vote for the shorter term, Why, then, attempt to deprive the people of especially for the offices of Treasurer and Au- the exercise of this right by establishing long ditor; and when we shall come to the consider- official terms? You might as well say to a ation of the tenure of county officers, I shall monarch on his throne, that he should dispense vote in the same way. with the exercise of his sovereignty for so long Mr. TANNEHILL said, Mr. President, there a time. I presume that the people of Indiana is a fitness in all things. I have been listening never would have called this Convention upon for some time to what has been said concerning the presumption that terms of office would be a man's holding office for a long term. Now, lengthened and re-eligibility destroyed by our in order that the people may enjoy what is right action here. and proper with reference to this thing, I would I have but little to say, Mr. President. I am not be in favor of reducing this term of office in bad health and cannot talk much. But these to too short a time, nor of extending it to too are my views, and this is the course which 1 long a time. But there is a medium which we think would be best calculated to advance the ought to adopt. It is not consistent to adopt highest interests of the State. I think, also, long terms of office andre-eligibility. I suppose that a word of caution might not be amiss at no politician will deny that. The oftener the this time, against the temptation for gentlemen people exercise their sovereign power, the more to go on and fix up their big salaries, and their safe and secure are they in their political inter- long terms, thinking they, themselves, are going ests, and the better contented they are. For to hold these places: though I am not niggardly example, if you remove the general elections about salaries, I am for giving good salaries to two years apart-two years is a considerable all our officers. But I must insist upon having length of time in which to give the people no the terms of office short, and making the offiopportunity to come together and consult with cers themselves re-eligible, These are my reference to their best interests, besides the dis- views. advantage of changing from what it has been. Mr. SHOUP. I fully concur with the view My opinion in regard to the subject under con- taken by the gentleman from Tippecanoe, (Mr. sideration is, that short terms of office and Pettit,) that we should rather induce men to 283 accept of office and hold on to it, then hold them of this subject leads me to favor short terms of back. It strikes me that a two years' term is office and a strict accountability of officers. I not long enough to induce a responsible man to confess that I had some doubts relative to the take upon himself the duties of either of these propriety of extending the term of office of Sec-,ffices. I hold the same views with reference retary of State, for reasons which have been to this, as I held with reference to the former already advanced. But as to the Auditor and section, that, if the term of these officers shall the individual who holds the purse strings of be fixed for two years, the effect will be that the State, I have no doubt whatever. The they will fall immediately into the hands of present Constitution of the State fixes the term those who are located around the capital. It of these offices at three years; and now gentle.. must be remembered that the people of this men seem to be disposed to extend it to four State will expect their candidate to canvass the years. The committee was of a different opin.district. Who then, sir, from any remote part ion. We had no doubt (I repeat) upon the subof the State would go to the expense of can- ject of the official term for the Treasurer and vassing for one of these offices, if he were to Auditor, their offices being intimately conremain in it but two years? He could not afford nected with each other. Gentlemen say, that it without an increase of the salary. I hope, by declaring these offices ineligible for a second sir, that the word "two" will be stricken out, or a third term, we almost disqualify them for and the word "four" inserted: that it will be holding any office whatever. But this is not the pleasure of the Convention ultimately to the case. If a man is disqualified for one office, determine that the several State officers shall are there not a hundred other offices in the be retained for the term of four vears. State to which he may look? There is not an Mr. HELM. I have favored rotation in office individual in this Convention who can expect to in theory and in practice, and I seem to be in hold a seat in another Constitutional Convenadvance of some democrats here, upon this sub- tion, but still they are all big with the desire ject; notwithstanding I believe it to be an arti- of office-some for one thing and some for ancle in their confession of faith. I hold, also, other. I have not a word to say, sir, against that offices are not created for the benefit, sole- any of our present State officers. No man ly, of office-holders, but they are created for the has a more exalted opinion than I have of the benefit of the people. Gentlemen have seemed Auditor and Treasurer; but I am free to say to look at the subject to-day, as though offices that there are very many men who will ask for were created solely for the benefit of the office- these offices for the sake of the stealings-the holders. I sir, am in favor of frequent changes salary being only a secondary consideration. in office. It has been hinted by gentlemen on The stealings will be the great object with some my left, and over the way, that office-holders by men; then the question with me is, how shall.their position were enabled to exercise a large we come at them! How shall we bring them amount of political influence upon the balance to a final judgment. These examinations by of the community. This influence, sir, is felt legislative committees are all a perfect farce; I in every county in the State. A court house say this from experience. For these officers influence has been spoken of, and I presume always have friends enough around them to help there is not a member upon this floor, who has them out of any difficulty in which they may not felt the power of an influence of that kind, be involved. It is only when their successor who has not heard the cry of the court house comes in, that we can bringthem effectually to clerks and other officials of the'county, combin- judgment. And it was by this means; of short ning to put down those who are not office-hold- terms and strict accountability, that the comersl An influence of this kind hasbeenbrought mittee thought to secure the interests of the to bear, perhaps, in every county of the State. State, which might be committed to the hands This evil results to every community where men of these officers. are suffered to hold office for a long time. Mr. FOSTER. The principal thing which It has been argued here, sir, that if men were I have in view in extending the term of these allowed to hold office for a longer term, there offices, is, to make their incumbents ineligible; would be no inducement for the people to quali- and it has been intimated by gentlemen that fy themselves for office. And I hold, myself, these officers can come into these places here that there would be found a larger number of for the purpose of making them stepping-stones qualified men, if the opportunities for obtaining into other offices. It has been intimated, also, office were made a little more frequent. What that unless they are restricted to short terms, is the inducement for a young man to prepare they will, perhaps, make too free use of the himself for the duties of county or circuit court public money. I have but one remark to make clerk, when he looks around him and finds these with reference to this matter. There are men offices frequently filled by the same person for a possessed of adroitness enough to conceal their term of twenty or thirty years? The practice dishonest purposes and square up things at the of continual re-election to office, I am opposed end of their first term, so as to secure to themaltogether to. selves a second term. I believe it will be conMr. READ of Clark. The view which I take ceded by all that no individual from Marion 264 county can be re-elected to one of these offices; the parson, " I am speaking but in the way of and the result is, that the Auditor and Treas- a parable." urer have sometimes to come from some other Mr. DOBSON. In the remark I made, I did part of the State, and whether they be farmers, not allude to any officer; I alluded to men in lawyers, or physicians, they must leave their general. With reference to our present Auditbusiness, of course, and come here to reside. or and Treasurer, I believe them to be honest Now, sir, I hold that when a man is in Rome and faithful. There is no temptation, indeed, he should do as Rome does; he should con- for them to be otherwise. Nevertheless; I form to the usages of society in the place where would have a provision in the Constitution re-. he resides. Well, his salary for two years quiring a settlement with these officers every would scarcely furnish his house decently; for year. The instance in my mind occurred in the man who aspires to one of these offices middle Tennessee, where the county treasurer should at least stand on a par with his fellow- held his office during good behaviour. The incitizens in this respect. It is plain, then, that vidual to whom I alluded had kept the office of unless the term were extended, the salary would county treasurer for twenty years. The people offer to awell qualified man no considerable in- had no right to examine a man's papers; and ducement to accept of either of these offices. he was continually speculating upon the public There was another consideration which would money. And when the proper functionaries prevent men from seeking these offices. It is would call upon him to examine into the condiexpected that they will be made elective by the tion of his office, he would be informed of the people; and in this State it is customary for time,and go over to his brother-in-law and get every candidate for office, from the Governor fifty thousand dollars. And then, when the down, to stump it before the people; these can- committee would come and find twenty thousdidates, therefore, will have to go all over the and dollars in the office, and inquire for the balState; a thing which would be attended with no ance, he would say, " Here it is, in this box;" little expense, and which any prudent man and all would be right. After they were gone, would hesitate long before he would take it he would send back the box to his brother-inupon himself. Heretofore, all these candidates law. In this way this man became rich, and it had to do,"has been to furnish a little wine and was also true that the county sustained no inan oyster supper or two-things much more jury. But I also have another case of a county comfortable and agreeable to most men than treasurer, falling into the same temptation, and going all over the State as a candidate. As not only broke himself up, but ruined all his has been remarked by the gentleman over the connections. Therefore, I say, the further we way, I, also, am in favor of rotation in office. keep ourselves from temptation, the better it I believe it is the democratic doctrine. I know will be for us. And now, when the Legislature it has been customary heretofore, upon the prin- is to meet only once in two years this temptaciple of re-eligibility, for these officers to hold tion will be doubled, and those who make officeon from term te term; but because a man is in seeking a business are, generally, the most disoffice it is no reason he should be continued in honest men in the country. The finances of it. I have no idea of giving to any man such the State of Indiana, so far as the expenses of an advantage, especially if the individual be- the civil administration are concerned, have longs to the class of men referred to by the been, perhaps, as well managed as those of any gentleman from Owen, (Mr. Dobson,) and his other State. As for the finances applied to trust should be one of as high a responsibility public improvements, they have not been under as that of the Auditor or Treasurer of State. the control of the State officers, and therefore Therefore I would be in favor of making these all the blame for their mismanagement must offices ineligible. The gentleman from Owen fall elsewhere. rather intimated that all men were guilty of Mr. MAGUIRE. It strikes me, sir, that stealing somewhat. His intimation brought to amongst the greatest evils that can befall a free my mind what I once heard of an old Scotch people, are long terms of office and ineligibiliparson. The old parson had a deacon or clerk ty. I am in favor of short terms, with the right by the name of Jemmy McFarland; and on one to a re-election for a reasonable length of time, occasion the old man said to his people, " Ye if the people choose to continue the incumbent are all my sheep now, and Jemmy McFarland in office. The prospect of a re-election always is my wee dog to help keep the sheep in order." operates as a stimulus to a public officer to disThis being an important announcement in the charge his duties with fidelity, and produces a estimation of the old parson, and desiring to en- salutary influence upon his conduct and deportforce the idea, he raised his voice and repeated ment. I voted against the proposition to make the words: " Ye are all my sheep now, and the term of the Secretary of State four years Jemmy McFarland is my wee dog to help keep instead of two. I could see no good reason the sheep in order." Upon this Jemmy roused why that officer should be elected for a longer himself, and looking up into the face of the term than the Auditor of State. The Auditor parson, he replied:'"I am nae mair a dog has no public money in his hands. He is only than you are, sir." "Hoot, awa' mon?" said an accounting officer, and there can be no rea 285,son given in favor of a four year's term for the public money in their hands, should be called,Secretary which would not apply with equal or frequently to an account by terminating their greater force to the Auditor. My own im- official tenure. If we cannot be allowed a dipression is that it is proper to limit the terms of vision of the question upon this amendment, I the Secretary, Auditor, and Treasurer to two shall vote against striking out; for I would not years, and permit them to be re-elected at least extend the office of Treasurer beyond two once or twice if the people continue to confide years for the sake of extending the term of the in their honesty and capacity. It has been re- Auditor. marked that the condition of the accounts of Mr. HOVEY proposed to amend the amendthe Auditor and Treasurer cannot be fully as- ment by providing, " that the Auditor shall hold certained until they go out of office. Why, sir, his place for the term of four years, and the their offices have been thoroughly examined an- Treasurer for the term of two years." nually by a committee of ways and means of The PRESIDENT decided that this amendthe Legislature, appointed expressly for that ment was not in order. purpose; and a competent committee can read- Mr. PEPPER of Crawford moved that the ily ascertain and report whether the business is Convention adjourn..correctly transacted, and whether the books and The motion was not agreed to. money on hand correspond with the official re- Mr. KILGORE proposed to amend the amendports required to be made by those officers. ment by adding the following: Rotation in office is a correct doctrine-a doc- " And also striking out the word' six' where trine of which I have long been an advocate- it occurs in the sixth line, and inserting the but it seems to me that its application, as a gen- word' eight."' eral thing, is more appropriately made by the This proposition was rejected; and the quespeople than by the stern provisions of a Con- tion again recurring upon the amendment of stitution. It seems to me, sir, that any propo- Mr. Carr-striking out "two" and inserting.sition which operates as a restriction upon the " four"power of the people, should be regarded with Mr. PRATHER proposed to amend the great caution, and adopted, if at all, after very amendment by adding the words, " and that all deliberate consideration. the officers of State shall serve four years." Mr. CHANDLER. It has been argued that, The PRESIDENT said the Chair could not on the part of an office-holder, the idea of re- entertain the motion. That was precisely the eligibility inclines him to honesty and industry. proposition that was pending now. This is a new doctrine to me. I never heard On motion by Mr. RARIDEN, the Convenof it before, and it may be correct. But I know tion adjourned until to-morrow morning at nine it is a saying in the country, that if you want o'clock. to make a man dishonest, give him an office. My opinion with reference to the subject under -consideration, has been well expressed by others. FRIDAY, Nov. 1st. I think short official terms should be established, Convention met, pursuant to adjournwhether we have re-eligibility or not. I insistention met, nt to ad only upon short terms. My notion as to the ment. termn of the Secretary of State was, that he Prayer by the Rev. Mr. read and ap(ought not to serve for so long a term as that T j which the Convention has agreed upon. Short p roved. terms of office offer certainly a better security he woud move to amend the rules o te Conagainst losses by defalcations. They are but vention, so that on Saturday of each week reslittle more expensive to the people, and if, as olutions should have precedence over the orders has been urged, these offices, with a short term, of the day. Jshould be found burdensome to their incumbents, all I have to say is, that these gentlemen TERM OF OFFICE OF SECRETARY OF STATE. must know before-hand the salaries attached to The Convention resumed the consideration of -these places; and there is little danger that such the unfinished business of yesterday, being the a state of things will ever arise, as to compel consideration of article 1, providing for the electheir acceptance of them. tion of Secretary of State, Auditor, and TreaMr. CLARK of Tippecanoe. I think that suier. the proper term for the office of State Treasu- The PRESIDENT stated that the pending rer, for the reasons already stated, ought to be question when the Convention adjourned yeslimited to two years. But I see no reason why terday, was on the motion of the gentleman the term of the Auditor should not be fixed for from Franklin (Mr. Shoup) to amend the first four years. For this officer, as was truly stated section by striking out " two " and inserting sby the gentleman from Marion, (Mr. Maguire,) " four.";has no supervisions of the -public money. I Mr. PRATHER moved to amend by striking think it proper and requisite that all officers, out the words, Auditor and other," where they whether of the State or the county, holding occur in the section. 286 Mr. PRATHER said his object was, if this would, in accordance with the terms of my amendamendment was adopted, to offer another sec- ment, be elected for two years, so that his term, tion making the Auditor's term of office to con- of office would expire two years before the exsist of four years. piration of the Auditor's term. Subsequent The amendment was subsequently with- Treasurers would be elected for four years, and drawn. thus the two officers would never hold office forMr. CHAPMAN. Is it in order to offer an: the same four years. amendment at this stage of the proceedings! I have heard of a case in Ohio, the circumThe PRESIDENT said that an amendment stances of which the gentleman from Monroe would be in order. (Mr. Read) knows much better than I do, in Mr. CHAPMAN then offered the following: which there was a collusion betwen the Auditor "Strike out all after the word,' provided, and the Treasurer, and a large amount of the and insert the words,'that no person shall be public money was embezzled. In this case, eligible to the office of Treasurer more than these two offices were held in conjunction and two years in any term of four years; nor for the simultaneously, and the officers were thus enaoffice of Auditor more than four years, in any bled to cover up and conceal their defalcations term of six years.' " until the final exposure. Mr. C. remarked that the effect of his amend- If, instead of adopting the principle of making ment would be to confine the Treasurer of State the tenure of these State offices for four years, to one term in office, and he believed he had without an exception, we will elect the first effected that object by changing the phraseol- Treasurer to be chosen under the new Constiogy of the proviso. tution for two years only, we shall avoid the The amendment was disagreed to. difficulties I have pointed out. But if youmake The yeas and nays were demanded upon the this an office to be held two years, or four years, amendment offered by the gentleman from Jack- without a provision like those I have read, a son, (Mr. Carr,) which is as follows: most undesirable resultwill follow. The Audit"Strike out the word,'two,' in the first line, or of State and the Treasurer of State will and insert the word,' four. " come into their respective offices together; will Mr. OWEN. A single word, Mr. President, hold them simultaneously for the same length before the yeas and nays are taken upon this of time, and will go out of office on the same question. I have an amendment in my hand day. which I propose to offer at the proper time. I I do not desire to discuss the question of theknow that it is not now in order, but it might policy of making these officers ineligible for a influence the votes of some gentlemen, if they second term at this time. There are arguments knew that an amendment of this character was for and against it; but, without expressing any to be offered as soon as in order. It is as fol- opinion upon that point, I remark again, that, if lows: we declare that these officers shall not be eligiTo strike out all after the word law, in the ble for a second term, and then say that the third line, and all in the fourth line up to the holding of these offices (of Auditor and Treasword qualified, inclusive, and insert: urer) shall be for the same period, the result "And who shall hold their office for four will be as I have described it, and as bad as years, and until their successors be elected and though the offices were held for four years. qualified: Provided, That the person elected as But I simply rose to say, that, if the amendTreasurer at the first election under the amended mendment now pending does not prevail, I shall Constitution shall hold his office for two years then offer the amendment I have read. only." Mr. EDMONSTON. I highly approve of I will explain its effect. The question now all that the gentleman from Posey (Mr. Owen) pending is upon the amendment to the section, has said in regard to preventing the State Treasproposing to strike out the word "two," where urer and State Auditor from holding their offices it occurs, and insert the word "four." Should simultaneously; but I think we can gain the that amendment prevail, the Treasurer of State object he has in view by adding his amendment and the Auditor of State would be no check to the one now pending, in the shape of a proupon each other as to the correct discharge viso. I think the object can be attained in this of the duties of their respective offices. They way, and without the necessity of a motion to will each hold office for four years; they will strike out and insert. hold the office simultaneously, coming in to- The yeas and nays being demanded, were gether and going out together. I hold it to be taken, and resulted-yeas 42, nays 92-as a good principle, if men are to hold offices as follows: checks upon each other, that they should not YEAs.-Messrs. Alexander, Berry, Bourne; hold those offices simultaneously. I would, if I Bowers, Bryant, Butler, Carr, Clark of Hamilmay be allowed the use of a very familiar ton, Cookerly, Crawford, Dunn of Jefferson, phrase, "break joints" in the building of this Dunn of Perry, Edmonston, Farrow, Foster, department of the State government. The first Gibson, Gregg, Hall, Harbolt, Helmer, Hitt, HoTreasurer elected under the new Constitution gin, Howe, Logan, Miller of Clinton, Miller of 287 Gibson, Milroy, Mooney, Morgan, Morrison of oughly acquainted with political economyMarion, Morrison of Washington, Nave, Nof- should be thoroughly conversant with every — singer, Pettit, Ristine, Robinson, Schoonover, thing connected with revenue-all the statutes Shoup, Steele, Terry, Watts, and Mr. Presi- of the State having regard to the various funds dent-42. of the State. There are various funds; the NAYS.-Messrs. Anthony, Badger, Balingall, College Fund,the Wabash and Erie Canal Fund, Barbour, Bascom, Beach, Beard, Beeson, Bick- the Surplus Revenue Fund, the Saline Fund, and nell, Biddle, Blythe, Borden, Carter, Chandler, others. In view of these varied and important Chapman, Chenowith, Clark of Tippecanoe, qualifications, no man, I care not how good his Cole, Colfax, Crumbacker, Davis of Parke, general capacities may be, can step into the Dick, Dobson, Duzan, Fisher, Foley, Frisbie, office of the Auditor, and, by intuition, underGarvin, Gootee, Gordon, Graham of Miami, stand all its duties He must, to some extent, Graham of Warrick, Haddon, Holliday, Hamil- be educated to it. It is an office requiring of ton, Hardin, Hawkins,Hendricks, Holman, Ho- its incumbent great labor; and it is of the vey, Huff, Johnson, Jones, Kent, Kendall of greatest consequenie to the people that its duties Wabash, Kendall of Warren, Kilgore, Kiniey, be well and intelligently performed. Let this Lockhart, Maguire, March, Mather, Mathis, Conventionwell consider the subject before they May, McClelland, McFarland, McLean, Miller decide to restrict the tenure of this office to two of Fulton, Moore, Mowrer, Murray, Newman, years. If there is one subject upon which the Niles, Owen, Pepper of Crawford, Prather, people are peculiarly sensitive, it is upon taxaRariden, Read of Clark, Read of Monroe, | tion; and yet the Auditor controls this matter, Shannon, Sherrod, Sims, Smiley, Snook, Smith and virtually orders the amount to be levied, of Ripley, Smith of Scott, Spann, Tague, Tan- and the manner of its collection. It is as cusnehill, Thomas, Thornton, Todd, Trimbley, tomary as it is proper for the committee of Vanbenthusen, Walpole, Wheeler, Wiley ways and means to call upon the Auditor for Wolfe, Work, Wunderlich, Yocum, and Ze- his estimates and opinions, and his recommendnor-92. ations are generally the basis, if not the subthe amendment was lost, stance, of their reports. So the amendment was lost. M DUNN of J son of d an a d In addition to all this, I will remark that we ment, which was, in substance to strike out are going to have a curious state of affairs with froment, which was, in substance, to strike out / regard to the election of all these officers. It is from the section under consideration all between understood that all these ate officers are to be t understood that all these State officers are to be the word "law" and the word "provided," and elected by the people. Now, if you make these'~~~~~~insert: elections so frequent, you certainly multiply the " The Auditor for four years, and the Treas- chances for electing bad and incompetent offiurer for two years." cers. What will the people of Jefferson county Mr. MORRISON of Marion. The amend- know about the character and qualifications of ment just offered by the gentleman from Jeffer- a candidate living in Laporte, or some other reson meets my views precisely. I am one of mote county Unless he goes to the great exthose who are willing that all officers should be pense of time and money to travel over all the held to the strictest responsibility; but, at the State, the people will not know whether to vote same time, I do not desire to impose an un- for him or not. The result will be this: The reasonable amount of responsibility. If the annual conventions of both the political parties Treasurer of State, who has the keeping of held at the capital of the State will pick out and vast sums of the public money, is not kept in nominate one man for Secretary of State, anabundant check by his bond, by his reports, other for Auditor of State, &c., &c.; and these and by examinations into the affairs of his of- political conventions, sitting at the seat of govfice by committees, I am willing that he should ernment, will virtually appoint these State offibe "closed up" at the end of two years. But cers. The democracy of this change from no such'reason exists in the case of the Audi- Legislative elections to elections by the people tor of State. All the reasons which I adduced at large, will, in this way, be lost in the name on yesterday in favor of my proposition to make of the thing. the term of the office of Secretary of State For these reasons, I shall vote to make the longer, apply with stronger force to the office term of the Auditor's office four years. of State Auditor. He is to Indiana what the Mr. WATTS said, there was another objecSeeretary of the Treasury is to the United tion to short terms, over and above those which States-he is a cabinet officer, and chief of the had been already urged, which would influenoe exchequer. A higher order of qualifications are his vote. These offices were to be filled by a demanded for this than any other of the State direct vote of the people, and, if the term of seroffices. He must understand the amount and vice were made so short as was now proposed, condition of all the resources of the State; and it would effectually preclude every poor man, the apportionment of taxes. He must be fully however competent, from competing with his acquainted with all the fiscal interests of the more wealthy neighbor, in canvassing the State. State in every particular. He should be thor- It was an expensive operation to canvass the 288 whole State, and no poor man, whatever his they now going to say that, when a man had abilities might be, would risk, for so short a term served in office for the term of two or four years, of office, the expense that would inevitably be he should thereupon be made ineligible to serve entailed upon him. That was one great objec- again? He could not for a moment think that tion with him. It would, in point of fact, re- any such illiberal spirit would prevail in that.sult in nothing more than an election by a cau- body. With the gentleman from Tippecanoe, cus, as had been suggested by his friend from he was clearly of opinion that such a restriction Marion. A convention here would select the would tend to destroy the energy, the usefulofficers and offer them to the people for their ness, and, perhaps too, the honesty of the man votes; and the people would, in that way, be who might be called to serve in offices of State. virtually disfranchised-would be prevented He regarded it as decidedly anti-republican and from exercising their democracy on this subject. oppressive in its character. He had no doubt Mr. STEELE said, he could find no good that any difference of opinion which might exreason why there should be any distinction in ist amongst the members of that Convention was the time which the State officers might be call- perfectly honest; but he must candidly tell them ed upon to serve. He knew of no good reason that he would rather to-day, that they should why the Secretary of State should serve four lay their hands upon his suffrage and deprive years, and the Auditor or Treasurer only two him of it, than to say that, after a man had years. He had, on the previous day, voted for served his country faithfully and honestly, and the continuance in office of the Secretary of with ability, for four years in any office, he should, State, for four years, and he could not for a mo- therefore, be rendered ineligible to serve his ment think that any gentleman, whom the peo- country for four years more. They should repie might elect as Treasurer of the State of In- member that they were framing a new Constidiana, inwhose hands would be placed the whole tution, which was to be the organic law of the control of the funds of the State, would prove State, and that if this restriction was introduced, a defaulter, or abuse the trust which the people they could not repeal it next year, but that it thus reposed in him. On this point he differed must inevitably remain for many years to come; with the gentleman from Owen, who, perhaps, and, if they were at this time of day, to say to had been unfortunate in his associations, and their fellow-citizens, who, like themselves, by who seemed to have a dread of evil-minded men. the great Creator of nature, had been made free, But there were others who had not that dread; that they should not be allowed to offer themwho had had honest associations, and who were, selves as candidates for any office in their own therefore, disposed to place more confidence in gift-if they were not only thus to abridge the the general honesty of mankind. He could see rights of individuals, but also to put a restriction no good reason, then, why the people should not upon the choice of the people, he should, from elect a Treasurer for four years, as well as a that moment, whether his time in this world Secretary of State, or any other officer. This might be long or short, ever regret that a vote officer was not only to be elected by the people, had been cast in the ballot box, for the calling but he was to be bound in sureties for the faith- together of that body. He would rather be deful discharge of his trust; and they might de- prived of the right of suffrage at once, than of pend upon it that some responsible man would the right of offering his services for any office always be recommended to the different coun- -not because he wanted office, but because this ties, and that they would have ample security provision would operate as a two-fold restriction for all their funds. He begged to say that there -a restriction upon the man who had faithfully was an objection to this section, which he re- and advantageously served his State, and also a garded as of much greater weight than the restriction upon the choice of the people who mere tenure of office. He had votedon yester- would thereby be prohibited from exercising day-and he regretted that vote very much-to their free choice. [Applause]. render any man ineligible to serve a second term With one more remark he would close, for in succession, who had served four years. On he thought that fifteen minute speeches were reconsidering that vote, he had come to the con- long enough at any time. They had been told clusion-and it certainly was an honest conclu- on yesterday by some gentleman, he did not resion with him-that, under our republican gov- member who, that they were working for the ernment, no individual ought to be rendered in- benefit of the office seekers, and not for the eligible for any office for one moment. Hebeg- people. In one sense that might be true, alged to be allowed to make reference to the lib- though so far as he was concerned he vas deerality of the law organizing this Convention, as didedly for the people. The only way in which an illustration of the position which he took. he could conceive that they were working for What did this law say 1 Why, that every indi- the office seekers was by attempting to put in vidual in the State of Indiana, no matter what this "ineligibility" restriction. So far as that office he might hold, should be eligible to a seat was concerned they were decidedly working for on the floor of that Convention. And were the office seekers sending offices round to be they now, as members of the Convention-be- filled in rotation without regard either to the ing a selection of the talent of the State-were qualifications of the candidate or the choice of 289 the people. The only object seemed to be to knowledge of them were much more difficult of prevent a man who had well done his duty from acquisition. ever doing it again, and to prevent the people Inasmuch then, as the Auditor of Public Acfrom having him again as their servant. [Ap- counts was the proper accounting officer of the plause.] How absurd was the notion! Where I State, and inasmuch, also, as it would take a was the man who had a good farm horse that length of time for him to become thoroughly would work well in his team, and plough his acquainted with the varied duties appertaining corn, and answer all his purposes steadily and to the financial affairs of the State, it appeared faithfully, and without any tricks-where was to him that the term of his office should be exthe man having such a horse who would be tended to the period of four years. He should, ready to exchange him for one of which he knew therefore, vote for having the Auditor's term of nothing, which might work in his team or break office fixed at four years, instead of two years, his waggon, which might plough his corn or and he hoped that the propriety of that course trample it down, which might carry him safely would fix itself upon the minds of the members to see a friend or to find the doctor, or which of the Convention. might as probably break his neckS [Shouts of Mr. OWEN wished to say one word by way "good! good!" and great applause.] Where of explanation. When the amendment of the was the man that would make such an exchange? gentleman from Jefferson was first offered, he And, although he did not mean to say that men was inclined to vote for it, because it seemed were no better than horses, he would say, and to answer nearly the same purpose as that he would say it in the presence of that Conven- which he had a short time ago intimated he tion, that with our free institutions no man would ofer to the consideration of the Convencould continue in office longer than for one term tion. On a further consideration of the amendunless he were a meritorious officer. And were ment, however, he found he could not give it they willing to destroy the merits of the man his support. If this amendment were adopted in supporting such a provision as this, and to the practical working of it would be that the fasten him down so that the people could not Auditor and Treasurer would be elected, on the reach him? God forbid that the Convention first election, at the same time-the Auditor should attempt to muzzle the country in this' for four years, and the Treasurer for two yearsmanner. [Continued applause.] He supposed, but the Treasurer being re-eligible for another nay he believed, he was in a minority upon this term, and being at the Seat of Government, he question. Be it so; he only regretted it the would have a good opportunity of electioneering, more. He would, however, say this much, that and of having his name brought up as a candiwhile life remained, if no other voice than his' date; and probably in nine cases out of ten he were lifted up in this matter, he would endeavor would be elected two additional years, and in to show, and to have it engraven on the minds that way would serve the same four years as of the people as on a rock of adamant, thatthere the Auditor. There would not, therefore, be was one man in this body who was unwilling that check to prevent collusion which he prothat the people should be restricted in the choice posed to effect by the amendment which he inof their servants. [Applause.] tended to offer. He preferred his own amcndment, therefore, because while it would fix both He ought perhaps to apologise to the Con- oiffices at a term of four years, the same persons vention for having trespassed upon their atten- would not fil these offices simultaneously, and tion in alluding to a clause of the article other e should, by that neans, have the ful benefit than that which was immediately under consid- the check whici the ofce of Auditor was Jeeration, but it was part of the same article and siged to give vwas intimately connected with the subject now r. DUNN of Jefferson. In reoli to a suunder discussion, and lie hoped that the consid- gestion from the gentleman irom Posey (Mr. erations he had thrown out would mneet witmiht be acceptathe attention of the reflecting portion of that be to m if t contained certain restrictions body. upon the eligibility of the Auditor and TreasurMr. HAMILTON, who spoke in so low a er, I beg leave to say that I drew the amendvoice as scarcely to be audible to the reporter, ment as it is, so that we might have a direct was understood to say that he did not rise for vote upon the question of the length of the the purpose of making a speech, having no idea terms of service of these officers, unconnected that by any thing he could say on this subject with the question of their re-eligibility. When he would be able to change the views of the we have settled the former question we can Convention; but he wished to set himself right proceed to the consideration of the latter, and before his constituents on the question. He our votes upon the question of re-eligibility will, was of the opinion that it was of vastly more no doubt, depend in some degree upon the disimportance that the Auditor should be continu- position that is made of this amendment. The ed for a longer term in office than the Treasur- discussions on this section indicate that those er, inasmuch as the duties of the one differed who arc in favor of a two years' term are parwidely from those of the other, and a thorough ticularly anxious that the Treasurer of State 19 290 should hold his office for a short term. As from abroad would be willing to break up all there are reasons why the Treasurer should his business connections and remove to this, hold his office for only a short period, that do city for the honors and emoluments of either of not exist as to the Auditor, I thought I might, these offices, for the term of two years, and the perhaps, meet the views of both parties by the chance of a re-election to a second terml Will terms proposed in my amendment. The reas- not the effect of shortening the term of service ons urged by the gentleman from Marion, (Mr. be either to fill all these offices with residents Morrison,) and the gentleman from Allen, (Mr. of this place, or with incompetent men from Hamilton,) in favor of extendng the Auditor's other parts of the StateT We ought to endeavterm of office to four years, appear to me to be or to place all the citizens of the State on such as ought to impress the mind of every an equality in these matters, and also do all in member of the Convention. The duties of the our power to elevate the standard of official Auditor are, in my opinion, more important than character so as to call to the aid of our embarthose of any other executive officer connected rassed finances not only integrity, but the best with the State Government. He has the guar- abilities ot the State. dianship of all the financial affairs of the State, Mr. MILLER of Fulton. I am disposed to and there is, perhaps, no State in the Union vote against this amendment. Some days since whose financial affairs are in so complicated a a resolution of positive instruction, was introcondition as ours. In addition to our ordinary duced into this House, making it the duty of the revenue and disbursements, we have a number appropriate committee to report a clause for the of trust funds, all of which require much atten- new Constitution, in favor of biennial sessions tion, and certainly experience would be of great of the Legislature. It is also in contemplation advantage in the administration of these import- to put a stop to local legislation as far as possiant interests. We have large amounts loaned I ble; to all this I say consent. It is also in conupon mortgages which are successively expir- templation to make further reform in the legislaing and have to be renewed, or new loans made, tive department, by limiting the House of Repand new mortgages taken. Upon the Auditor's resentatives to seventy or eighty, and the Senate judgment and fidelity will depend, to a consid- to some thirty or thirty-four. erable extent, the security of these funds, and In view of all this, sir, although I am not so his deficiency in either may involve the State certain bow far I shall favor this last proposition,. in heavy losses. If his term is but two years, in my opinion, we shall have a pretty thorough by the time he has become thoroughly convers- reform in the legislative department. But how ant with all the financial affairs of the State his does it happen, I say, in view of all this, it is term of service expires, and the benefit of his proposed to extend the present term of office; experience is lost. But it is said he may be re- thus putting a greater distance between the elected. True, he may, but that by no means people and their servants, while we will, by bifollows as a matter of course, and if it does, I ennial sessions, lesson the power of the people can then see no particular necessity for going to correct the abuses of State officers; you prothough the form of an election. But, sir, my pose to place these officers at a still greater observation does not satisfy me that the faith- distance from the people than under the present ful performance of official duty always secures system. This I believe to be bad policy. To a continuance in office. Very often party, in abridge the powers of the people still more, a its blindness, disregards all the claims of merit proposition is under consideration, and the reand qualifications, and recklessly puts at hazard port of the committee now under consideration, the highest interests of the State. As I said provides that no person shall be eligible to the before, the same reasons do not exist in favor office of Treasurer or Auditor more than four of giving to the Treasurer an official term of years in any term of six years. It is proposed four years. He is charged with the safe-keep- to carry this principle to every office in the ing of the public money. It is therefore of the State. Well, sir, it appears to me a monstrous first importance that he should be honest. But doctrine to incorporate in the Constitution, that as he is not authorized to pay out any money the people shall not have the right to vote and except upon the warrant of the Auditor, he has confer office on any elector they may choose to but very little discretion to exercise. He is a elect. Now my doctrine is this: short terms mere disbursing agent. It does not require the of office, so that the office holder will be cormsame amount of information and familiarity pelled to make short settlements with the peowith the finances of the State to enable a man pie, and when he will not be far off, if the peoproperly to discharge the duties of a Treasurer ple wish to remove him. Nothing will tend, in as of an Auditor. If he is honest and agood ac- my opinion, better to ensure the faithful percountant he may make a good Treasurer, but formance of the duties of office, and especially he may be both and yet make a very poor Au- would it be so, when the convening of the Legditor. If this section is adopted without islature is less frequent; and now if we should amendment, I suppose we can find competent adopt this doctrine of short tenure of office, and men-residents of this place-willing to fill I hope we will, then certainly the incumbent them. But, I would ask, what competent man should be re-eligible as often as the people, 291 should elect to put him in nomination. There- } he desired to set himself right upon this question. fore I hope those members favoring these prin- He was most decidedly in favor of short tenures ciples will assist in voting down every amend- of office, and he could not conceive where was ment, until we can have a vote direct on the mo- the great necessity that the persons elected to tion to strike out "two" and insert "four;" after fill the office of Auditor, should occupy it for that we can dispose of the proviso. Perhaps it four years. He believed in a speedy and strict may be expedient to elect Auditors for four accountability to the people. When he came years, and to provide that no person shall be to that Convention with a view of reforming the eligible to the office of Treasurer of State more Constitution, his wish was to give all power to than four years in any term of six years. I the people as directly as was possible, and to know it is argued that the Auditor's office is a let them decide as frequently as was requisite, very important one, and the Treasurer's a very on all matters in which their interests were aftempting one; all true, sir, but the same can be fected. said of many of the other offices. Therefore I From the arguments of some gentlemen, it I think it is best to observe the same rule would appear that the Auditor could not posthroughout. sibly learn to discharge the duties of his office in Mr. FARROW observed, that he did not wish the short period of two years, and therefore it to do anything by his vote or action, in that is concluded that he must be a man of high Convention, that might be detrimental to the standing, that you must give him a full salary, general interest of the State; but they must be and throw a robe of dignity over him, and make satisfied that there were considerationsin regard him a great man, and that, therefore, there to this question which were far above the mere would be no use in a poor man canvassing the consideration of the length of time that an of- State for such an office. Oh no! a poor man fice should be held. They had already been would notdo, but you must have a man who can informed thxt the duties to be performed by the talk, and who is a good looking man, and who officer holding the office now under considera- perhaps is as well qualified to fulfil the duties of tion, were high and responsible; and if the period the office as a hog. [Laughter.] He may be a for which the office was to be held, was to be so very good looking man, and may make flowery shortened, as to prevent him from having an speeches, but that will certainly not qualify him opportunity to make himself fully acquainted to discharge the important duties of an office of with its duties, they would be creating an office this character. The people want business men, that would be comparatively useless. He was not talkers-men who understand the business not particular about the re-eligibility of officers of the State, and if they found tha't they had of any grade whatever, but it seemed to him, elected a man who could not transact it in a manthat the offices which they were now about to ner both creditable to the State and to himself, create under the new Constitution, should be then, they wanted an opportunity to send him equal in point of length of time for which they forth at the earliest opportunity. were to be held. The Secretary of State, the Again, if a man discharges the duties of the State Treasurer, and the Auditor, should be office to which he is elected, with satisfaction to considered in no other light, by the Convention, the people, then I think the people ought not to than as a cabinet for the executive; and he was be deprived of the privilege of re-electing him, perfectly willing that the executive should have and not as the amendment of the gentleman the benefit and use of his cabinet for the entire from Jefferson would have it; that the people period for which he might be elected. He could should be deprived of his services. If they turnnot, like some other gentlemen, see any great ed out a good and valuable public servant, it was danger to the interests of the State, by contin- their own lookout,their own loss. But he wasfar uing men of this grade in office for four years. from being of opinion that the capability ofrenHis own impression was, that if there were dering valuable services, was confined to afew honest men in the State who could be secured individuals. There were thousands and thouto fill these offices, all the business confided to sands of people capable of discharging the dutheir care would be equally as secure during the ties of Auditor of the State. It had been urged term of four years as that of two years, because that lawyers and other men of business, capable if a man went into office with a disposition to of undertaking this office, would not neglect be dishonest, he could as easily accomplish his their regular business to take this offite for a dishonest design, during a short term as he could short term. He thought there must be a great during a long one. He thought upon the whole, change in the people of Indiana, if it ever so it would be well to consider this matter very happened that scores of candidates could not be carefully, so as to ascertain whether the duties found for any office, even if the term of it were of the office of Auditor could be fairly under- only for one year. The ambition for perlormstood and discharged, to the satisfaction of the ing public service was remarkably manifest, and people, by any man, in the short space of two showed itself even in the desire to fill offices years. which render no profit. There was hardly a Mr. BASCOM did not wish to detain the vacancy in the office of coroner of a county, Convention with any lengthened remarks, but but a score of candidates could be found to fill 292 it. He knew that it went very much against thing in full, and settling with the Indiana the grain of office-holders to see the term of of- Legislature to their entire satisfaction, in the fice reduced. He knew from experience that name of God why could he not come before the these were the men who were desirous of having people next year for their suffrages? [Aplong terms of office, but the people in his part plause.] of the State were decidedly opposed to it. They Mr. LOCKHART moved to amend the amendwanted a change, andhe thought there were ment by striking out all after the word "law," facts and arguments both, to show that a change in the third line, and insert the amendment as was much required, especially in the period of proposed by the gentleman from Jefferson. the Auditor's and Treasurer's office. They Mr. THORNTON said, that as the discusmight elect an Auditor or a Treasurer for three sion on this subject had been continued so long, or four years, and when the time came round and perhaps the Convention having its mind for a settlement of accounts, they could make sufficiently made up, he would move to re-comperhaps a very fair and flattering statement for mit the article to the committee from which it the time being, by which they could hocus pocus was reported, with instructions that they should the people, but when the time ultimately came re-consider the subject, and report an article to to weigh them in the balance, they would be this effect: found wanting. Then the corruption and the " That the Treasurer of State shall serve for fraud would be made to appear. On the other one year, and the Secretary for two years, and hand, with short terms, and strict accountability, the Auditor for four years; and to be re-eligible the state of affairs could be more frequently, for a second term and no longer." and more stringently, examined, and then the He took that ground upon this principle, that people could choose the men they wanted. He men that held public money should be called was fully impressed that the people desired frequently to account. He did not believe that short terms of office. They desired this not only the Treasurer ought to continue in office for a in regard to State offices, but it was a feeling longer period than one year. He believed, extending itseif in regard to all offices-even however, with some of his friends who had exthe lowest of a county or a township; and in pressed an opinion upon the subject, that the these high offices there were more opportuni- Auditor of the State ought to continue in his ties for fraud than in any others; and even this office for a longer term than the others, on acoffice required to be as strictly watched as any count of the arduous nature of his duties and other office.i the State. He hoped, therefore, the difficulty of becoming sufficiently acquaintthat this amendment would not prevail. He ed with them. He was perfectly satisfied that would move to lay it upon the table. the Treasurer should hold his office for a short Mr. STEELE observed, that he did not care term. Something had been said about the difa great deal how short gentlemen made the ficulty of calling officers to an account if the tenure of the office. They might make it for term were fixed for a year only, on account of two or for four years, although, for his own there being a probability that the Convention part, he would prefer to have it fixed at four. would so order it that the Legislature should He did not wish to charge any impurity of mo- hold only biennial sessions. In that case it tive to any member or members of the Conven- vould perhaps be necessary to have some tribution, but he'could not but think that it was pos- nal by which we could call officers to account, sible that gentlemen might be influenced more so as to avoid the difficulty. than they were aware of by political consider- He had voted, on the previous day, when the ations. He, however, would go with gentlemen question was under consideration in regard tco to make the term two years, provided that there the term of office of the Secretary of State, for should be no restriction as to eligibility for two striking out the word "four" and inserting'"two," subsequent terms. and it may be said by some gentlemen that Speaking of moral honesty and corruption, those who voted for "two" in the present case, he would simply observe that he (Mr. Steele) are anxious to avoid the consequence of their had been elected three times to an office, the having voted for'four" on yesterday. From term of which continued seven years [applause]; what indications I now see, I think there are and he had never suffered himself to be seduced many gentlemen who voted for "four" on yesnor did he ever intend to be. He declared sol- terday, who will vote for "two" in regard to emnly, on that floor, that were they to give him this question. all the funds of the State of Indiana at his dis- Mr. HARDIN moved to lay both the amendposal, he could report them to their biennial ments on the table. Legislature as he received them, and perform Mr. THORNTON suggested that his motion his duties faithfully and impartially. If, then, -the motion to re-commit-was a privileged he could perform these duties faithfully and im- motion, and had precedence of all others. partially-not that he sought at all to perform The CHAIR decided otherwise. them-and after having thus performed them, The question was then taken on the motion secure the good feelings and the approbation of to lay the amendments on the table, and his fellow citizens-after thus paying every- It was decided in the negative. 293 Mr. READ of Monroe said, that he had been not be re-eligible, but that the Auditor should examining the amended Constitutions of the be re-eligible. different States, and in almost all of them he A MEMBER, whose name we could not asfound that it was provided that the Treasurer certain, moved to lay the amendment on the should be elected for only a single year, and the table. Comptroller of public accounts for but one or The motion was not agreed to. two years. It was so in the amended Consti- Mr. HOVEY moved to amend by striking out tution of Connecticut; and in the State of New all after the word "provided." York, the financial department of which was Mr. KENT moved to lay that amendment on much larger than it was likely that of the State the table. of Indiana would ever be, they had adopted this Which was decided in the affirmative. provision: Mr. BORDEN had only one remark to make " That the Secretary of State, the Comptrol- in relation to his amendment, and it was that ler, the Treasurer, and the Attorney General a distinction would be made between the Auditshall be chosen at the general election, and or and the Treasurer-the latter going out at shall hold their offices for two years." In the the end of two years-a settlement would be State of Illinois they have adopted the same inevitable at that time. He would make that principle-that of short terms-and also in the alteration on the ground, that in proportion to States of Wisconsin and Iowa. In the South- the duties to be performed, the office of Treasuern States they have adopted the principle of rer was more lucrative than that of any other, longer terms. He believed, in reference to the and there were always men who would be ready office of Auditor, that it often happened that a to take it, even with that limitation. It would man was as competent to perform its duties on then stand thus: the Secretary of State would his first entrance upon it as he was at any fu- be elected for four years, and would not be reture time; and if he was not, and was a moder- eligible; the Auditor would serve for two years, ately intelligent man, this would stimulate him and would be re-eligible for two years more, to more zeal in acquiring a knowledge of his and the Treasurer would serve for two years and duties. If he was a man of intellect he would would not be re-eligible. look around and see what were the financial The yeas and nays being demanded and orsystems of other States, and adopt what he dered on this amendment, they were taken with found good and reject that which was not good. the following result: He might perhaps be allowed to cite an exam- AYES.-Messrs. Alexander,Anthony, Badger, ple. There was a gentleman who was now a Balingall, Bascom, Borden, Bowers, Butler, citizen of this State, who, in the early part of Chapman, Clark of Hamilton, Colfax, Cookerly, his life, had held the office of State Auditor in Crawford, Crumbacker, Dick, Dobson, Dunn of Ohio during the most difficult periods of the Perry, &c., Edmonston,Foley, Gordon, Graham financial concerns of that State; andit was uni- of Miami, Graham of Warrick, Gregg, Hall, versally acknowledged that his first report was Holliday, Hamilton, Hawkins, Hendricks, Huff, worth all the reports of all the Auditors of the Johnson, Kent, Kendall of Wabash, Kendall of State for twenty years preceding him. Warren, Kilgore, March, Mather, McClelland, A MEMBER. That's a fact. McFarland, Mowrer, Murray, Newman, Owen, Mr. REA). These great States then had Ristine, Sherrod, Smiley, Spann,Tague, Watts, not experienced any difficulty from the frequen- Wiley, Work, and'onderlich-51. cy of electing officers of this description. The NOES.-Messrs. Barbour, Beach, Beard, Beeonly real cause ofcomplainthadbeen of deficien- son, Berry, Bicknell, Biddle, Blythe, Bourne, cies at the seat of government, and the only way Bryant, Carr, Carter, Chandler, Chenowith, to remedy this was to create short terms of of- Clark of Tippecanoe, Cole, Davis of Madison, fice. He had nothing further to say than thatDavis of Parke, Dunn of Jefferson, Duzan, Farhe hoped the Convention would adopt the rehe hoped the Convention would adopt the re row, Fisher, Foster, Frisbie, Garvin, Gibson, port of the committee as it came from theirHaddon, Harbolt, Hardin, Helmer,Hitt, Hogin, hands. Holman, Hovey, Howe, Jones, Kinlev, LockThe question was now taken on the motion hart, Logan, Maguire, Mathis, May, McLean, to recommit the report, and it was decided in Miller of Fulton, Miller of Gibson, Milroy, the negative. Mooney, Moore, Morgan, Morrison of WashingThe question then recurred on the amend- ton, Nave, Nofsinger, Pepper of Crawford, Pettit, ment to the amendment offered by the gentle- ther Raden Read of ark, Read of Mnman from Jefferson, roe, Robinson, Schoonover, Shannon, Shoup, Sims, Snook, Smith of Ripley, Smith of Scott, Mr. BASCOM moved to lay the amendment Steele, Tannehill, Terry, Thomas, Thornton, and the amendment to the amendment on the Todd, Trimbly, Vanbenthusen, Walpole,Wheeltable. er, Wolfe, Yocum, and Zenor-79. The motion was agreed to. So the amendment was not agreed to. Mr. BORDEN moved to amend the resolu- Mr. RARIDEN. To test the sense of the tion so as to provide that the Treasurer should Convention, I move to strike out from the sec 294 tion under consideration, all after the word "pro- the masses of the people. But it is not a genvided." eral rule that the best man for an electioneerThe PRESIDENT. Will the gentleman ing campaign makes the best officer. It is not from Wayne send up his amendment in wri- true that the greatest stump speaker, and the ting. most popular canvasser would make the most Mr. RARIDEN. I have no amendment to competent Auditor of State. I am willing offer, I merely move to strike out. I amraware, enough to see candidates for Congress, and for sir, that there are objections both ways in re- State offices go around among the people and gard to this matter, and that good reasons can discuss the questions of the day. It increases be assigned for restricting the term of office to their urbanity and improves their manners, sir. two years, and, on the other hand, for extend- [A laugh.] But above all it impresses them ing it to four years. I have endeavoredto look with the presence and power of the people. carefully over the subject, and to form the best But if you fix the term of these offices for two judgment I could. I desire to see frequent elec- years, the candidates will not make the tour of tions-I want to see the people frequently call- the State, they will not go before the people, ed upon to review the actions of their servants, but party will settle down into a complicated, and yet I feel desirous that they should be un- but regular machinery, which will control the trammelled by party bonds, and I also have selection and election of State officers. Party, fears that if the elections are too frequent, par- for the sake of strengthening itself, and gratify ty Conventions at the capital will appoint our its leading men, will make rotation in office one State officers. But, sir, I am notjprepared to of its principles. assume the ground that the mere possession of Mr. President, there is another benefit to reoffice necessarily corrupts a man; nor do I be- suit from the frequency of these elections, allieve that offices should be made the reward of though I don't know but that it is malicious in political or party services. Now the disposition me to contemplate it with so much pleasure; the to impose the restrictions attempted to be placed frequency of elections will produce jealousies in this section grows out of one of these two and discord among those politicians who considconsiderations; either the fear that office will er that their services to their party have enticorrupt the officer, or else, as old General Smyth tied them to office. Say what you will, and used to say, in olden times, or else because it as much as you will, about patriotism and all will double the chances of obtaining office. that, when a man considers that his services Mr. PET TIT (in his seat). That is the case. have entitled him to office, he will not, when Mr. RARIDEN. My friend from Tippeca- another is appointed in his place, rejoice that noe says that is the case, and I doubt not that the State has found better men to fill the office, he speaks ex cathedra. Now, sir, I am not wil- but he will be very apt to lead off his friends ling to cultivate a thirst for office. In my hum- and make a little party of his own. The result ble opinion, the worst symptom you can see will be the frequent re-construction and conseamong the young men of a county, is an avidity quent purification of party. When a man or to get office, a desire to live at the public ex- set of men come to the conclusion that they are pense. Itis an unmanly trait. The result of not well treated, and considered by the dominleaning too much on the strong arm of the ant clique of their party, that their services are State, is to unfit a man for the stern duties of not so well rewarded as they should be, they life, to unnerve him for the slow, and quiet, and will join together in a war upon that dominant toilsome steps by which men reach wealth and clique which has controlled their Conventions, social distinction. Above all things, I dislike and if the "bolters" be strong enough, and wise to see this disposition in community to abandon enough, they will soon become the controlling the ordinary pursuits of life, for the chase, the power in the party, and from the necessity of ignoble chase after office and salaries; to see carrying out the reforms they promised in the men leaving their farms, their workshops, and event of their obtaining power, parties will be their professions, to seek for places in an over- purified at the same time they are re-organized. crowded public service. I should be induced Party abuses always result thus, or in what to oppose frequent elections upon that ground, gamblers would call "a cut and shuffle." But alone. for my own part, when a man gets into office, There is one thing mentioned by the gentle- and fulfils its duties well and honestly, (and sir, man from Marion (Mr. Morrison) in which I the punctual fulfilment of his duties is the only heartily concur with him. If the elections are way he can sustain himself,) I am not in favor of held as frequently as proposed, the State offi- ostracizing him because he has once been in cers will mostly be appointed by the annual office, or because he is too popular. These are conventions of that party which happens to be the thoughts sir, which have suggested themin power, and the people will not be generally selves to me in this connection. I am not disacquainted with their candidates. But if the posed to disfranchise a man because he has term of office is for four years. It will induce the been in office two, four, or six years. candidate to travel into every county in the A word upon another thing which occurs to State, and make himself well acquainted with my mind. However much we may talk about 295 democracy and whiggery, the truth is, that in ary or the honor, is, in my opinion, most disevery dominant party there are a few men in reputable. I consider the farmer behind his whom whigs and democrats respectively have plough in a nobler position than your State confidence, men upon whom the party rely; Treasurer behind his desk. and, sir, these men are, for the time being, as Mr. WOLFE. It appears to me that we absolute in their power as the Autocrat of Rus- have been tied up here long enough, and I shall sia. They are the distributors of office, the not detain the Convention with any remarks at almoners of power, and the oracles of creed and length. principle. I have been long enough in public I observed that we had been "tied up" here life to know that. When Martin Van Buren about long enough. It is not a common thing was President, I know that he was as absolute with nautical men, in a seafaring life, to "tie in his power as the monarch on his throne. up" in fair weather. The present time, in my When he declared that a principle or a policy opinion, is too propitious for action upon the was democratic, it was so; his party had such subjects before us to be wasted in fruitless deimplicit confidence in him, and his influence bates. I think we had better take this report was so potent, that no one dared express dis- just as it came from the committee who preparsent from what he had said. So with General ed it; that will probably be found the best as Jackson. And, sir, I am frank to say, that if well as the most expeditious mode of settling Henry Clay had heen elected President it would the matter and getting ready to proceed to the have been the same in the Whig party. There mass of other business as yet untouched by the never was a man in any party in whom so much Convention. All the amendments which the confidence was reposed, or in whose hands ingenuity of this numerous and able body could power would have been more absolute. And suggest have been proposed to this section, and so it will be, though in a lesser degree, in the yet it is no nearer meeting the views of gentleState. Through the power and discipline of imen, nor is it any nearer its final adoption, than party, it will go out from this City who is to be when it was brought in from the committee. I your next Auditor, what man the dominant par- hope that the vote taken yesterday, by which ty are to support for Secretary, and who for the term of office of the Secretary of State was Treasurer; and show me the man, whig or I changed from two to four years, will be re-condemocrat, who will stand up and refuse to vote sidered. I hope that the Convention will refor the nominee of his party! The people consider the matter, and make the tenure of throughout the State are not prepared to judge that office for two years also. We shall then of the qualifications of the candidates, but they progress in our business as we should do. say they have confidence in the head men of There appears to be a prevalent disposition to their respective parties, at Indianapolis, and gain honor by proposing and debating new they are confident they would not present an propositions; it is my opinion that many desire unworthy candidate for their support. Make to get a reputation in that way, but I tell them your elections so that the State officers are to they will get more honor by expediting business be elected every two years, and you will see and getting speedily through with the work we that some men, not generally among the peo- were sent here to perform, than by making all pie and in remote parts of the State, but poli- the speeches that can be sent out. ticians near the Seat of Government, will break Mr. SMITH of Ripley moved to adjourn, but out of the party traces, and if they do not suc- withdrew his motion at the request of ceed in constituting themselves the centre and Mr. ZENOR, who said he had a proposition governing influence in their party, they will be which he should like to submit before the Consure to effect a reform among the " Regency," vention adjourned. He moved to re-commit the to use a New York phrase which all my Dem- section under consideration, with instructions. ocratic friends understand. The Convention refused to re-commit. I do not believe that it is best to make your Mr. BARBOUR. I had prepared a motion to officers ineligible for a re-election. I do not re-commit this section, myself, for the purpose believe in all that is said about the corruption of allowing the committee to report as to the of every man who has held office. I do not be- tenure of these offices in separate sections. In lieve in the corrupting influence of money upon this way I believe the Convention could quickthe public mind. I do not regard nor respect ly dispose of the report. Take the majority of the charge that it is easy to corrupt the people the motions and propositions to amend this secwith dinners and festivals. It is a libel upon tion, and there is in each one some one thing the virtue of the people. I have not yet lost of which members would approve, although they confidence in my fellow men so as to believe may not be disposed to adopt the proposition as them so easily corrupted. It is not so easy a a whole. Some are in favor of making the thing for a man holding office to secure his re- term of the office of State Treasurer four years, election as has been represented. The effect while others would have it but two years, and of rendering your officers ineligible for a second some who are in favor of a short term for term, will be to encourage the pursuit of office; Treasurer are for a longer term for the other and the pursuit of office for the sake of the sal- officers. Now, I think that if these propositions 296 were in different sections a majority would be new light upon the subject; and I am desirous found prepared to adopt each. to obtain all the light I can. I know that our Mr. SMITH of Ripley. I hope the question constituents at home will bear with us if we will not be pressed at this time. We are now take time for these investigations; and although settling one of the most important principles we may be tedious in debate, I hope that we in the new Constitution. I would remark to shall be led to wise and just conclusions. the gentleman from Wayne (Mr. Rariden) that Sir, this institution has reigned over us, in there is more of "politics" in this section than jthe State of Indiana, for more than thirty in any other that may be incorporated in the years-ever since its first organization as a new Constitution, and it is mixed up with a State. It is one we borrowed from the old fundamental principle; it is a question which world. Yet this is no argument or reason why should be decided only after mature reflection the enlightened people of our State may not and a careful consideration of all the points in- I alter or amend it. Should we not use the lights volved. The settlement of this question in-' derived from the experience of past ages, which volves the political weal or woe of the people we possess, for the purpose ot advancing in the of Indiana for, perhaps, a half century to come. present? I should hope so; and especially In order that time may be nad for a fuller con- that the light we have should be now applied sideration of the subject, I again move that the to this institution; for I regard it as very nearConvention adjourn; which motion was agreed ly the only one which has escaped the acute to, and investigations of our times; although it is The Convention adjourned until nine o'clock manifest that it has been made the instrument to-morrow morning. of more oppression than any other institution in our Government. It has been asserted by,~..^ j ~some gentleman in this debate, that it would be better to endure a bad system, if it were not GRAND JURP SYSTEM! GRAND JY absolutely intolerable, than to resort to change. [The following speech of Col. TAYLOR of Laporte, This may be so but it is my udgment that we deivered on Thursday the 24th ult., was unavoidably have lived under this oppressive system of Grand emitted in the proper place.- Juries too many years already; and, therefore, Mr. TAYLOR said- I am anxions that the Convention shall go into Mr. PRESIDENT: Having been invited by a fair and full investigation of the subject, and some gentlemen to stand a little further back, try it by its merits, and I trust that the friends I acquiesce; for it is not for ourselves, but for of the new system will be able to convince their our auditors that we speak. I hope the Con- opponents that they are supporting an inferior vention will hear what I have to say; I claim system, altogether incompatible with our free this attention not for myself, but for the subject institutions. The friends of the resolution do to which I propose to allude. We are assem- not wish to carry it merely because it is new, bled here for the purpose of discussing all sub- but because the measure itself is meritorious. jects in connection with the new Constitution, The present system of Grand Juries has been and I am grateful to my honorable friend from long tried, and, as I think, its usefulness has Tippecanoe (Mr. Pettit) for presenting this fallen far short of what was anticipated by its proposition for our consideration, for it has friends; and there are more people now sufferspread a new light upon the political horizon ing from the oppression of this institution than of our State. It contains a principle which, if from that of any other one institution under it shall meet with approbation in this Conven- which we live. In proof of this, I would retion, will add much to secure rights to our con. mark here, that the odium which attaches itself stituents which they justly claim at our hands. to a man's character when indicted for crime, I look upon this new project as containing a can never be removed. It is as clear as the principle far in advance of the old system of noon-day sun that no man can eradicate it Grand Juries, which gentlemen have been at from his escutcheon, but it will follow him to so much pains to eulogize. his grave. Mr. President, this is emphatically an age of From the amount of light before us, and that reform, and in saying this I pay a great compl;- which is being developed by the arguments of ment to the people of this generation; and, sir, gentlemen upon this subject, the Convention this is a new question, directly affecting the in- cannot be at a loss for a sufficient justification terests of individuals and of the State, and inti- for making any alteration or amendment, or mately connected with the advancing spirit of even abolishing the system. this age. In connection with this subject, we I, for one, am prepared to abolish the system; have had the history of England, of France, of because, by the secret character of Grand Jury Scotland, and of almost all the nations of the proceedings, they operate injuriously upon the earth, arrayed before the Convention; and I character of our people. They act in secret, am obliged to gentlemen for having presented like the midnight assassin, upon the character to us such a fine display of their historical infor- of their fellow citizens. They meet to hear an, mation. They have, at every step, evolved ex parte trial, where the citizen has no chance 297 to defend himself; he cannot be heard; he is openly, and have a high-minded and honorable not called upon for the purpose; and it is his trial, face to face with his accuser; so that, if he worst enemy who generally goes and reports be guilty, he may be condemned; and, if he be against him, charging him with a high offense innocent, there shall rest no blighting stigma against the laws. This is one feature of the upon his character. Under the old system, this system which, above all others, should be strick- mildew of suspicion remains upon the character en off. And it seems strange to me, that a of every man who has had the misfortune to be people like ours, with all the experience of his- indicted, no matter how innocent he may be. tory upon this subject before them, and now Who ever heard of a single case of a man bebefore this Convention, should suffer this insti- ing presented to a Grand Jury, and a bill found tution to continue to settle its blight and mil- against him, that did not carry conviction to the dew upon us, staining with an indelible blot the mind, that there must have heen some reason fair fame of our people. If we, ourselves, may for his indictment! I never had a man pointed have been so fortunate as to have escaped its out to me, as having been indicted by the Grand power, that is no reason why we should not lay Jury for a high crime, that I did not at once imhands upon it and uproot it from our midst. It agine that I saw something in his countenance has affected our most faithful friends. The which seemed to indicate him as a criminal-a honest and the upright of our fellow citizens man whom I would always feel disposed to shun; have often fallen victims to its power; for this and I believe this feeling to be common to evreason it ought to be removed and cast out as a ery man. It is not so great a public injury, that public evil. Where is the comparison between the felon should escapes as that an honest man a public and honorable mode of criminal exam- should be destroyed in his reputation by the opinations and a secret, clandestine, and baccha- eration of a civil institution. Sir, with a highnalian mode 1 minded individual, the idea that he is suspected Sir, the people are moving in this matter, and of a high crime against the laws, is worse than I am gratified that they are. I was glad, this death. All honorable men estimate their charmorning, to see a petition presented praying acter to be of more value than their life; for for the removal of this institution from our character lives from age to age, which is not the criminal code. I have no reverence for this case with our perishing existence. When we institution on account of its antiquity. No op- shall be buried in the grave, that will have no pressive system can obtain any reverence from more terrors for us; but we do wish to leave to me on account of its " being hoary with antiqui- our families and descendants, the inheritance of ty." No, sir, I would hurl it from the statute a good name. But this can never be done book as far as I might have the power to do it. where a man becomes the subject of that indelWhat, sir, do the friends of the new measure ible impression of criminality, which, under the propose to this Convention, as a substitute for law, the Grand Jury may now cast upon him. the old one 1 I confess that this is a question Such an unfortunate individual can never even which has not been well matured, even by its sleep in peace, so far as his character is conadvocates. Heretofore, we have been looking cerned. The fact will witness against him, and more to the monster, than to the substitute. last as long as time and history endure, that a But, in due time, if we can carry this measure, bill of indictment for a high crime, had been I feel authorized to say to the Convention, that once found against him. Let me suppose the we will present a new and better mode of crim- case of a member of this Convention becoming inal examinations; both for the protection of the subjectof such a stigma, and removing to character on the one hand, and for the punish- another state, where he might again become a ment of crime on the other. It would be a bad candidate for the legislature, and where, it might compliment to the good sense of the citizens of be, he would meet with one of his former acIndiana, to confess that, if we were without this quaintances upon the political arena, who would Grand Jury system, we have not the capacity to tell the people that, "in the state where this originate a system, the operation of which man formerly belonged, the Grand Jury of his would be more conducive to the ends of justice county once found a bill of indictment against and mercy, than the operation of the present him for false swearing." After such an anGrand Jury system. Sir, I hold that we can do nouncement, although he might be as pure and it. I claim; not for myself, but for the people innocent as any one of us, would it be possible of Indiana, and for this Convention, talents for him to be regarded as fit to represent an honequal to any emergency which may arise, re- orable and high-minded people They cerquiring the protection of our citizens in all their tainly would reject his pretensions, if for no other interests and relations; and I am confident that cause than this. we can substitute, in the place of Grand Juries, We propose a system, then, under which both a system which will, in its practical workings, parties shall come up openly before the tribunal, meet with approbation and success. Sir, I wish to be composed of three, four, or five justices of to abandon the secret feature of the Grand Jury the peace, taken from different townships in the system, and place it in the power of the citizen, county, as suggested by my honorable friend when he is accused of crime, to come into court, from Laporte (Mr. Niles). Under this system, 298 if a man is suspected of any high crime against greatly prefer death. No, sir, give me the right the statutes of the State, he will be arraigned of a public examination, in preference to a before such tribunal, where he will have the Grand Jury, or any other secret institution that right to question and cross-examine witnesses, has power to cast the curse of an infamous crime and, if he should be acquitted, the whole pro- upon me, without any foundation in truth what-.ceedings being open to the public, it would not ever. affect him in his reputation, any more than if he Mr. President, I do not intend to detain the were sued for a sum of money which he did not Convention but a few minutes longer upon this,owe. No honorable, high-minded citizen could subject. I rose merely to ask for it the careful be injured under such a system. There would attention of this body. They are all men of be no bill found, unless upon clear evidence of reflection, no doubt; and as my very honorable guilt. But, on the contrary, how is it under the friend from Cass, (Mr. Biddle,) on yesterday, old system? Why, how often is it the case that asked the attention of the thinking and reflectfemales are brought reluctantly, to give testimo- ing members, because he was himself penemy before Grand Juries? When the gentleman trated with the deep importance of this subject, from Monroe, (Mr. Foster,) who last addressed so, now, do I ask the attention of gentlemen, the Convention, made his reference to the gen- and for the same reason. We have no claptler sex, I thought he was coming over to this trap here; and I do believe, if gentlemen will.side of the question. I supposed he was going but give the subject their full and unbiased conto come out and say that no lady in this free sideration, that they will see light springing up country, should everbe arraigned before a Grand in the place of darkness; that they will find Jury by any mere slanderer, and her fair fame the proposition to improve upon more mature taken away from her. I was astonished to hear reflection, and that they will be constrained to that gentleman, after this allusion, come out in say that there is more justice in this proposed support of an institution so well calculated for change, and a greater approximation to the the purposes of malice, and so often made the equilibrium of right and justice, than has ever instrument of destroying the fair fame of the been discovered in the old institution, which has gentler sex. Sir, our higher virtues are more blighted the character of thousands. I do not frequently made the subject of envy, than our censure gentlemen for parting reluctantly with weaker virtues; and it is' not unfrequently the the old system. They should not lay it aside wish of a bad spirit, to attempt to destroy the without reflection. But, upon this subject, we fairest reputation, in order that his own may be do not want history; we want only our own deelevated thereby; and, in this way, the reputa- liberate and practical reflections, to enable us tion of many a lady has been destroyed, who to sound the death knell of such an old and had previously always maintained the purest mischievous institution, and rear a better one character, and the highest position in society. upon its ruins. And these Grand Juries offer the most accepta- If the Grand Jury system was really as good ble facilities to an envious mind, to go in and and desirable as gentlemen seem to think it is, I swear that such a lady had taken a false oath; should be very reluctant to oppose it; but the only or that she had been guilty of petit larceny, reason which they advance for continuing it, is and so cause a bill to be found against her, its antiquity-because they have long known it. which must effectually destroy her reputation Our proposition, on the contrary, being new, has for the remainder of her life. to contend with the prejudices that cling and For these reasons, Mr. President, I am most cluster around old things; and I feel gratified anxious that we should not be in haste about the that it has received as much attention as it has. determination of this question; but that we Although this is a new proposition, yet, sir, should consider the time well spent, which shall looking at it in the light of justice and reason, be occupied in this debate. Sir, let me say to we think we can see in it everything requisite you, that the proposition now before the Con- to protect the rights of the citizen and secure vention embraces a new political movement-a the interests of the State; and should this body movement which will be carried out, sooner or fail to adopt it into the organic law-although later, so that we shall yet live under a different "no prophet, nor the son of a prophet "-I will institution from that of the Grand Jury system venture to predict, that, before thirty years shall -an institution where there will be less danger elapse, the people of other States in this Union, to be apprehended from the machinations of the as well as those of this, will have destroyed slanderer; and an institution which will go much this feudal monster of oppression, and reared in further to protect the character-nay, the life- its stead something similar to what we now of the citizen. For, what is life without char- propose. acter? No individual can contentedly exist By way of showing the ground for this prewithout character. Without character, life be- diction, I beg leave to make a statement which comes a burthen to them. For myself, Mr. I know to be true. Some eighteen years ago, President, rather than have a bill found against I had the honor of a seat in a deliberative body, me by a Grand Jury-I say it with deliberation, not like this, but a State Legislature; and in in the presence of this honorable body-I would that body I mooted the question of the election 299,of judges directly by the people; and I remem- ancient dynasty, and establish a new system of'ber very well, that, for so doing, the democratic criminal punishment that will be a sure relief party thought it an insane experiment, and against the evils of crime, bringing a speedy treated it with ridicule. They all said of me: retribution upon the guilty, and a triumphant "That young man wants to subvert all the es- and complete exculpation of the innocent. In tablished usages of society, and turn everything conclusion, I trust, sir, that the measure under upside down." But what has been the result? consideration will pass. It may not be the Dowenotseethat our party,almost like one man, most perfect substitute that can be adopted, are in favorof the election of all judicial officers; yet, time will point out its imperfections, and and not only so, but that many of the States of iexperience will complete it. And, in my humthe Union have adoptedit as a principle in their ble judgment, it will be the harbinger of a Constitutions. And is it not more than proba- purer and more advanced civilization, and ble that this Convention will adopt..it Well, strengthen, as we progress, the confidence of as I was saying, when I first mooted this ques- the citizen in the protective power of the lawtion, it did not receive one-tenth part of thei to secure life, liberty, happiness, and, let me amount of attention which has been awarded to add, character. the proposition now under consideration; and why? Because it had not half the merit in it; for it does not matter very much how a court is! organized and carried on, but it does matter a SATURDAY, Nov. 2, 1850. great deal whether we maintain an institution Tle Convention met, pursuant to adjournwhich, in its very nature, is calculated to cast ment. reproach upon the character of the citizens of Prayer by the Rev. Mr. ISENSEE. the country; and that is the reason why we see The journal of yesterday was read and apour honest and fair-minded yeomanry instruct- proved. ing their delegates and petitioning this body PROPOSITIONS TO AMEND. upon this subject, and why we see so many r. OWENfrom the committee on the gentlemen here, who will not be fouud advo- rigs privileges of the inhabitants of the eating so odious a measure as our present sys- r o State, made a report. tem. I tell you, sir, our Grand Jury system M OS, from committee on the Mr. FOSTER, from the committee on the would have been changed years ago, had it not elective franchise and apportionment of reprebeen for a general impression which pervaded s tin as s id a reort..sentation, also submitted a report. the minds of men, that it was a principle re- Tey wee read a first t a a quired by the Constitution of the United States. econd reading to - * * w * * t second reading to-morrow. It is not entirely a new question; it was sug- gested to me by my constituents at home. They RESOLUTIONS TO HAVE PRECEDENCE On SATUR came to me frequently, saying: "If you can DAIS. do it, we would like to have the Grand Jury sys- Mr. OWEN, in pursuance of notice given on ter abolished; but many, while they earnestly yesterday, moved the following amendment of desired this remodeling, supposed that the Con- the rules: stitution of the United States had placed an in- "So to amend the rule regulating the order superable barrier to any change. And I thought of business as that, on Saturday of each week, so, too; for I had read in that instrument that resolutions shall take precedence of the orders a man should not be put in jeopardy except upon of the day." indictment or presentment. But as soon as I The question upon the adoption of the amendlearned that it applied only to the practice in ment to the rules having b-en announced by the federal courts, I arrayed myself in opposi- the Chair, tion to Grand Juries, and I am well assured, Mr. OWEN said, he believed that the resoalso, that I am on the side of justice; but this lution which was adopted for the change of the is not saying that others have not as much right rules generally, introduced by the gentleman on to think for themselves as I have. They think, his right, (Mr. Stevenson,) was one of the most no doubt, that we are trying to uproot the foun- fortunate, with reference to the advancement dations of government; but they are laboring of business, which could be devised, if the Conunder a very great deception, for we are only vention were to have busine ss coming in, in adtrying to bring about a reform, and bring out a I vance of the orders of the day. On the other better system for the administration of criminal hand, it was always found convenient in Conlaw. And if our State will only take the lead gress, and other deliberative bodies where he in this reform, it will not only help to sustain had had experience, that there should be some our present lofty position in the confederacy, chance to introduce resolutions, not only resobut the principle will go forth to our sister lutions of a special and imperative character, States, attracting attention everywhere, adding but resolutions of inquiry, and miscellaneous to the reforms of the age a reform that will propositions. For, if they were to continue honor us as its advocates and originators; and without this opportunity, there would be corfor ourselves, we shall throw off the yoke of an tinually Inotions made to suspend the rules, 300 which would necessarily induce a great con- Bowers, Butler, Carter, Chandler, Clark of Tipsumption of time, and a vast accumulation of pecanoe, Cookerly, Davis of Vermillion, Dick,. useless matter upon the journal. It was his Dobson, Dunn of Perry, Edmonston, Foley, object to strike a mean betwixt the gentleman's Gootee, Graham of Miami, Graham of Warrick, rule, and this lack of opportunity to introduce Haddon, Holliday, Hamilton, Harbolt, Hardin,. resolutions. Hendricks, Hitt, Hogin, Holman, Huff, Johnson, Mr. FARROW moved to postpone the fur- Jones, Kent, Kendall of Wabash,March, Mathis, ther consideration of this proposition till this May, McClelland, Miller of Clinton, Milroy, day four weeks. He thought the Convention Mooney, Moore, Mowrer, Nofsinger, Owen, Pepwould have enough to occupy their attention in per of Crawford, Prather, Read of Clark, Read the meantime. of Monroe, Robinson, Shannon, Sherrod, Sims, Mr. BORDEN said, there were many getle- Smiley, Snook, Smith of Ripley, Tague, Tanmen here who were under obligations to their nehill, Todd, Trembly, Vanbenthusen, Wolf, constituents to present matter by way of reso- Wonderlich, Yocum, and Zenor.-63. lution. He thought it was due totheir constitu- NAYS.-Messrs. Alexander, Anthony,Badgents that this opportunity should be given. er, Balingall, Barbour, Beach, Beard, Beeson,. But it seemed to him that, for the present, they Biddle, Blythe, Bourne, Bryant, Chapman, Chenmight, well enough, devote to the introduction owith, Clark of Hamilton, Crawford, Crumbackof resolutions, one further day in the week. er, Davis of Madison, Duzan, Farrow, Fisher,. He thought two days in the week would not be Foster, Frisbie, Garvin, Gibson, Hawkins, Heltoo much time to devote to this object. mer, Hovey, Kendall of Warren, Kilgore, KindMr. FARROW'S motion was rejected. ley, Lookhart, Maguire, Mather, McFarland, Mr. CLARK of Tippecanoe moved to post- McLean, Miller of Fulton, Miller of Gibson,,dne the subject until this day week. Morgan, Murray, Nave, Newman, Niles, Pettit, The motion to postpone was not agreed to. Rariden, Ristine, Shoup, Steele, Terry, ThomAnd the question being taken on Mr. Owen's as, Thornton, Walpole, Watts, Wheeler, Wiley, resolution, it was adopted without a division. and Mr. President.-56. So the amendment was laid upon the table, STATE OFFICERS. and the question recurred upon ordering the The PRESIDENT announced the considera- section to be engrossed for the third reading. tion of the second section, of the article report- Mr. TERRY proposed the following amended from the committee on state officers other ment: strike out of second section, all relating than the executive and judiciary, on Friday the to Auditor of State, and insert the following: 25th of October, by the chairman (Mr. Read of "There shall be chosen, by the qualified voMonroe); the question being upon the adoption ters of the State, and commissioned by the Govof the amendment of Mr. Rariden, striking out ernor, an Auditor of State, whose powers and. the proviso, which is in the following words: duties shall be prescribed by law, and who shall "Provided, That no person shall be eligible hold his office for a term of four years, and until to the office of Treasurer or Auditor more than his successor shall be elected and qualified." four years in any term of six years," Mr. T. said, I have offered this amendment Mr. SMITH of Ripley said, he had remarked for the purpose of testing the sense of the Conon last evening, that the proposition'f the gen- vention, between the four years and the two tleman from Wayne was very important, be- years term. It seems to me a strange thing, cause he considered the section asitnow stands Mr. President, that gentlemen, professing a embraced every important principle. But,upon great devotion to the popular interests, should looking around over the House to-day, he dis- take the position assumed here by some, after covered a great many vacant seats; a great many contending so strenuously for short terms of ofmembers were absent on leave, and there be- fice, and a strict accountability of officers. Aling a very thin House, he did not desire to dis- low me to remark, sir, that this effort for short cuss the question at this time, unless it become terms and strict accountability, has been making absolutely necessary that it should be discussed, ever since the organization of this government. and if the question was to be taken definitely But it would seem, from the zeal manifested upon the subject, he thought it necessary that here upon this subject, that all these attempts something further:should be said. But to test have met with a most signal failure. Gentlethe sense of the House in regard to a postpone- men assert that the people are not permitted to ment of a further consideration of the question exercise their sovereign will, and then come up in its present shape, he would move to lay the here and coolly propose to restrict that sovereign amendment of the gentleman from Wayne upon will. Sir, is this democracy. It may be, in the table, and ask the yeas and nays upon the the modern sense of the term, but it is not requestion. publicanism. For here, in the second section of The yeas and nays were ordered, and, being the first article of our present Constitution, it is taken, the Secretary reported-yeas 63, nays 56, declared, "That all power is inherent in the as follows; people; and all free governments are founded on YEAS.-Messrs. Bascom, Berry, Borden, their authority, and instituted for their peace, 301 safety, and happiness. For the advancement of ity, but to give into the hands of office-holders these ends, they have, at all times, an unalien- the power to perpetuate themselves in place forable and indefeasable right to alter or reform ever, if power and party influence could effect their government, in such manner as they may that object? They have got thepatronage and think proper." Here is the text upon which the influence of office in their hands, and what our government is founded, and upon which all else should they do, but to keep themselves the Constitutions of every State in the Union perpetually in place? Sir, it is to prevent a are predicated. And an attempt is now made, stateof things of this kind, and tobreakitupcomby those who profess to be the special friends pletely, that I shall go against the doctrine of of popular government, to restrict the power of re-eligibility. Whenever you can break up the people in the exercise of their most import- this organized clique of office-holders, you will ant attribute of sovereignty. Sir, do the peo- break down this party machinery, which the pie demand this at our hands? All the author- gentleman's (Mr. Terry's) proposition, seems to ity which we have here in this body, is, to pro- me, to be designed to build up at this central pose such reforms in the organic law of the point. It seems to me, that this proposition is State, as public opinion seems to require, and, exactly calculated to build up a kind of political if public opinion has required us to impose this hierarchy, which shall perpetuate itself in power restriction upon the sovereignty of the people, and make a most indelible impress upon the fu-.then these gentlemen are correct. But the ture politics of the State, and because I am opposargument that officers should be restricted to ed to such a result, I am in favor of the princishort terms and made re-eligible, is too flimsy a pie of rotation in office, so, that no person shall disguise to cover up the purpose of securing hold office longer than a term of two or four power and influence in the hands of all the of- years in any term of six or eight years. lice-holders in the State, and enabling them to Sir, is this disfranchisement' If gentlemen say to others-gentlemen, stand back this time; think this to be disfranchisement, let them stay your turn will come next. We all agree that out of office. A plenty of men, well qualified, the expression of the popular will should be will always be found ready and willing to acfull and free and without restraint; but adopt cept of office upon the terms which may be prothe principle of re-eligibility.proposed in this posed in the Constitution. I am exceedingly report, and all the offices in the State will be desirous that this principle should be impressed disposed of by party organization, and the pow- upon the Constitution, so that it shall be diser of the machinery of party will completely tinctly understood as extending to every ramifisuppress the will of the people. cation of office in the State-even to the judiciaMr. SMITH of Ripley, said: ry itself. I would not have them hold on to Mr. PRESIDENT: I did not intend to say any- their places by perpetual tenure, for I hold this thing upon this subject, but since the gentle- doctrine to be true, that there are as good men man (Mr. Terry) has renewed this proposition out of office as there are in office. -brought up the old proposition identically, It occurs to me, as I pass along, that I should which the Convention has two or three times notice a remark made b y respected friend decided against; that is, the perpetual re-eligi- from Tippecanoe, (Mr. Pettit,) since I have the bility of officers; I desire to say a word with gentleman's obligation that I shall have a hearreference tothe whole matter. ing fromhimn whenever I speak, conferred as a I do not know the politics of the gentleman mere matter of compliment, I suppose. I relast upon the floor, nor am I careful to inquire; gretted to tee that gentleman leading in the dibut he threw out the idea that there must be rection which he did, for, of course, I thought some party machinery connected with the rota- that he shoud have taken the realdemocraticside tion in office, and the same gentleman proposed of this question. But, instead of that, he got up that perpetual re-eligibility should be adopted. and denocunced that side of the question in terms Let us look atthis proposition a little, and see of great strength and vehemence; he derided what it is, or rather what might be the effects and denounced the doctrine of putting any man of it. Let us inquire into the proposition and out of office who wvas qualified for the place strip it of all disguises. What does the gentle- and desired to retain it. man desire? He moved that the Auditor alone Mr. PETTIT interposing, and Mr. S. giving shall be made re-eligible forever; surely then way, said: I desire to correct the gentleman. he would desire that all the State officers He has misapprehended me entirely; I never'should be made re-eligible. Now, let us look uttered the sentiment here, or elsewhere, that a at this in a party point of view. Suppose all man should stay in office forever. I am in favor the State officers-the Governor, Auditor, Treas- of short terms of office. I desire that all offiurer, Secretary of State, and Judges of the cers should be, as often as practicable, remitted Supreme Court, were to be made re-eligible, to the people for re-election. But while I am and located at the seat of Government; I ask in favor of short terms, I am utterly disposed to gentlemen, if this would not bring to bear a oppose the doctrine of re-eligibility. If a man most powerful influence upon the politics of discharges the duties of his office to the satisthe Statel What is the doctrine of re-eligibil- faction of the people, there is no reason in the 302 in the world why he should not be re-elected, has been more heartily approved than anything; if the people desire that he should be. respecting official tenure, which has ever yet Mr. SMITH (resuming.) I thank the gentle- been introduced in any of our republican conman for his explanation. But I repeat my im- stitutions. pression, that he spoke in very strong terms of Mr. President, I have heard this argument denunciation against laying any limitation upon urged. It frequently happens that a one armed the right to hold office. On the contrary, I man gets into the office of county clerk, or must maintain that it is our right to set those county auditor, who is well qualified for his limitations. But, as I was saying, the gentle- place-why turn out such a man as this'? He man denounced this doctrine strongly and elo- may have held his place for five or seven years, quently, that his words passed over the house and it may have made him rich, is that any good like a shock of electricity; and I felt that this, reason for turning him out? No, surely not. my cherished doctrine, was all gone by the But I will give you a good reason: here is one board. But when I looked at the gentleman's one armed man in office, and there are perhaps reason, what was it! Why, he affirmed that if a hundred one armed men out of office; this is a you let a man take office for but a single term, good reason for rotation in such a case, and alit would make him cross; that he would not act lowing some other one armed man, who is poor, the gentleman while in office, but would be rude well qualified to take the place and hold it until and repulsive. Well, if this were to be the he has secured for himself and family something case-if we were to put a man of this kind in to subsist upon as well as the other, and then office, this would be one of the best reasons allow some other one armed or one legged man why we should turn him out as soon as possible; to take it, if he is qualified and deserving. This for there are gentlemen by nature, who would argument thus falls to the ground. be, or who ought to be, thankful for the privi- Well, sir, my friend on the right (Mr. Steele) lege of holding office for but a single term. I has an argument which is this-andit was well would prevent any other description of persons put and well said; he is opposed to turning the from coming into office, if it were in my power. old horse out of the plough, and he says: But, Mr. President, this rotation in office is Would you turn out the old horse, and take the not a new idea. We rotate our Governor, and young one? I answer, yes, I would turn out we rotate our Sheriffs. We say to the best the old horse-[several voices,"consent!"] turn men in the State, you shall not be eligible to him out-not to die, but take care of him; and the most responsible office, until you are thirty why not turn him out? It is due to the young years old. A man must have attained the age men that they have the opportunity of early of thirty years before he is eligible for the office training; the weight and responsibility of the of United States Senator. And I would in- State will soon be upon them, and the old quire of those gentlemen who are in favor of should be turned out, if they do not give way. this principle of holding office continually- For this reason I would rotate them out, but this perpetual eligibility-if there has ever been my friend says this would be disfranchisement; any fault found with this doctrine of rotation, this would be muzzling the people, for he bewherever it has been adopted! Why do youro- lieves, I suppose, in the old Jewish maxim,"you tate your Governors 1 They have less influence shall not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the upon the politics of your State than your Treas- corn." urers, because they have less money to handle, Mr. President, I do not understand the propand less immediate communication with the osition as disfranchising the people, nor in any people; and so it is with your Auditor and Sec- proper sense muzzling the office-holder or the retary of State, though their salaries and emol- people. uments of office are not near so high. Why not But now, sir, with reference to this principle rotate these? And as agentleman near me sug- of rotation in office, (and it is a great and fungests, why not rotate the President of the Uni- damental proposition, which we should careted States-that highest and most important of- fully attend to,) I hold if there has been any ficerin the Union? Why not rotate your Sec- one thing more plainly and intensely reflected retary of State, your Treasurer, and Auditor, by the popular will upon this body than anothwhy not rotate every man in the State who er; which has come to us as the light comes holds a highly responsible office? I would re- to us from the great solar centre, the people, it mark that public opinion has rotated the Presi- is this, that we should declare that all officers dent of the United States, although the Consti- shall be elected by the people; that we shall estution of the United States does not; the illus- tablish short tenures of office, and the princitrious example of Washington done that which ple of rotation in office, by the fundamental law the Convention neglected to do. And I would of the land. I consider this to be emphaticalinquire whether any man in the United States, ly the doctrine of the people. Now let us indare to ask for a re-election to a third term of this quire, Mr. President, whether this doctrine is office? No sir: public opinion would scout at not most consistent with the laws of justice, as such a pretension, and where we have rotated exemplified in family economy. Let us inquire Governors, Sheriffs, and Presidents, the doctrine whether this principle may not be traced up to 303 the highest and most purified sources of domes- sister will aid me in the other business of the tic order. Let us inquire what man having house-cooking for the family, &c." This arthree sons to assist him in the business of his rangement goes on very agreeably; and the farm, and who should say to the one, " My son, next week, coming round, she says to the elder you must attend to the stable for this week;" sister, " your younger sister, for this week, will and to another," You must attend to the wood- take her lessons, go into the parlor, and attend shed, and look after that department of labor for to the honors of the house, and you will go with this week;" and to the third, " You must go me and assist me with the domestic affairs of into the parlor and entertain company for this the family." Under this system of arrangeweek;" and to the latter he should add, "you ment every thing goes on smoothly, quietly, and shall put on a white cravat and qualify yourself gently. Everything being done up right, upon to entertain company upon these conditions: if this most obvious principle of fairness and you don't cut the furniture, nor tear the carpet, equality, no complaint is ever heard against the and if you keep your face clean, you shall stay domestic arrangements of this most estimable in the parlor next week." It is assumed that matron-all sharing alike in the labors and the three sons are equally well qualified to fill honors of the household, and all equally respecteither of these places; well, the next week ed and respectable. This state of things could comes round, and it appears that the young not be maintained under any other system, and man in the parlor has complied with the condi- this is precisely the principle which I wish to tions imposed upon him-has performed very impress upon all the offices of the State. If well-has kept his face clean-has not cutthe office is easy and honorable let all have an opfurniture-has not torn the carpet. And there- portunity to enjoy it; if burdensome, let it not upon, the father, ascertaining that all is right, be imposed forever. I have said before that I makes the same conditions for the next week, believe there are as good men out of office as and the next, and so on; and the lad comply- there are amongst the office-holders, and I desire ing strictly, continues at his pleasant, easy, and to extend to all, as far as possible, the opportuhonorable post, while the other boys are con- nity of participating in these favors of the peodemned to the duties of degradation and drudg- ple. I am utterly opposed to the principle ery. What would you say of a father who which makes it possible for office-holders to would manage his sons in this way! in a man- perpetuate themselves in their places. I would ner so un-parental and unjust? Why, you run an open seam through their tenure of office would say, he is an unfeeling man; that he from the highest to the lowest. Why, sir, should permit all of his sons to have an equal when a man has once got into a profitable and opportunity of meeting, entertaining, and en- honorable position he will have his friends joying the society of his company; he should around him, and will be able to make others by not, in such a way, make one of his sons a gen- the blandness and courtesy of his manners, and tleman and the balance boors. also, as far as the power of his official influBut, sir, we point you to an illustration of ence will permit him to go, to that extent he this principle, derived from a higher power than will operate upon the public mind, for the purthis. I will go to a different department in do- pose of retaining his office. I do hope, sir, that mestic life. I will call upon the ladies to aid this principle of short terms and rotation in ofme in this argument. I will ask gentlemen to fice may be impressed upon the new Constitulook to the economy of any highly respected tion and established as a fundamental provision and talented lady of our State-and I glory in of the organic law of the State. the State where I reside, because truth allows Mr. STEELE. I wish to occupy a few minme to remark here that in this country poverty utes in replying to the member from Ripley, is no disparagement-that it is no disparage- (Mr. Smith,) who has just taken his seat. That ment to any lady in this State, that, with her gentleman has had the honor of a seat in Condaughters, she should perform all the duties gress, and has had the advantage of more politpertaining to the family establishment, taking ical experience, and has filled more important personal care of all household interests from the offices, than the humble member who now ockitchen to the garret,-I would direct the at- cupies the floor. But, sir, notwithstanding all tention of gentlemen to this higher and purer that difference, notwithstandind that I am source, that they might learn a lesson of such a willing to "knock under" to him on the lady in her domestic policy, if you will allow me score of ability, I really do feel like trying to to use the term. There is a lady, educated and make a reply to what he has just said. I want wealthy, who resides in this State; this house- to notice his illustration in regard to the owner wife and matron has two daughters who are of the old horse [laughter] desiring, and it beequally well qualified to assist her in the dis- ing to his interest, to turn him out after a life charge of all the business of the house. On spent in his service. He said it was to the inMonday morning she says to her oldest daught- terest of the farmer to turn out an old horse and er, "my daughter, you will, this week, go into take in a young one who could work faster; and the parlor, where you will take your needle- he argued from this, that we should turn out work and entertain company; and your younger old officers and take in new ones every two or 304 four years. He used this illustration to make hold other offices by-and-by. They may be his position stronger, that we should make these employed in the next Legislature the better for State officers ineligible after one or two terms having served here. Must they be choked in office. He would appear to represent the down and muzzled hereafter because they have people in the similitude of the owner of the held an office here. I tell my friend from horse, and the officers in the similitude of the Ripley that the Scripture says: "Muzzle NOT old horse. But, sir, notwithstanding his simili- the ox that treadeth out the corn." [Laughtude, if he was a farmer, and was trying to get ter.] But I am coming to the point now; and a load of corn from his field with a young colt I will illustrate it as strongly as my friend from who was unused to the harness, and not broken Ripley illustrated his argument. I will use a to pull through the miry places and up the hill, mechanical figure. I have had a good deal of I think he would be glad to take out the young experience in life. I have followed a good colt and put in the good old horse [much laugh- many trades and means of living, and among ter] who was steady and used to a heavy draught other things, I have been a mechanic, and I up hill. Yes, sir, he would take him for the shall, therefore, be allowed to illustrate my sake of getting his corn to the crib for the sup- meaning in this way. Now here is the Capitol, port of his family. I will take the gentleman's a very fine and elegant building. It was built own similitude and remark upon it. He has for the State, and the mechanic employed did alluded to the women. Now, I will suppose his duty faithfully. He performed his contract that he takes that delicate portion of his family with the State in a workmanlike and creditable -the best part of creation-his wife and daugh- manner, and he expected it would be a recomter into his wagon; but will he put in his young mendation to him when he wanted to build colt who may take fright and run, or may balk other edifices. He worked hard that he might and stop in the middle of his journey, and would have the name of building the best edifice in le put his lady and family at the rear end of a the State. But, if you carry out the policy aryoung colt? [Roars of laughter.] No, sir, I gued for by the gentleman from Ripley and have too much respect for the gentleman from others, you would not allow him to build anRipley-I have so much confidence in his care- other house. Here is your Insane Asylum to fuiness and his regard for his family-that I be built-and, sir, the finest building I have know he would send off for the old horse. seen is the Insane Asylum-but you won't let [Continued merriment.] But he went further; this good architect, who has proved himself a he remarked, when he was using the similitude good one, build the other State building, beof the ox, if a farmer would keep an old ox to cause he has built one; and so you would turn plow his corn, after he had got old and blind? a good mechanic out of employment. This Does the gentleman [turning sharply round to would be on the same principle that you would Mr. Smith] mean to say that at this moment I say the people shan't elect an officer to the am blind? [Laughter over all the chamber] same place twice, no matter how well he has Mr. SMITH. I had no reference to the gen- served the public when he was in ofice. tleman from Wabash at all: I was trying to I will make another remark in regard to the show the necessity the owner was under of sovereignty of the country. I agree with the turning his ox out to pasture, after he got old gentleman in all that he says about the soverand so blind that when he plowed with him the eignty of the people. But I thought that the ox would go weaving and staggering through sovereign of a country could distribute the otthe furrow, treading down the corn on both fices as he thought best? I thought the people sides. [Laughter.] I have more respect for could make a man President for one term, or amy friend from Wabash than to allude to him two, just as they thought best, and that they in that manner. could keep a man in office two years or ten lMr. STEELE. Mr. President, the gentle- years, if they thought he was faithful and disman has explained what he intended to say. charged his duties well. But it is proposed to Well, I will still take him on his similitude of restrain this sovereign from exercising his judgthe ox. [Great laughter.] I would ask him ment in the selection of his officers; it is proif he hadn't better have the steady old ox than posed to forbid him from keeping a man in ofa young steer, not half broken' [More laugh- fice longer than two or four years. Now I am ter.] And moreover, to carry out the simili- for leaving this matter with the sovereign who tude, it is well known by every farmer-and I is the people in this country. I wish to let the am proud to say there are many farmers in the people keep a man in office just as long as they Convention-that a young horse is never used see fit. I will not muzzle them. Suppose we until he has been broken in by being worked go to the highest authority? Suppose we with the old horse. Every man who expects to look to the high court of Heaven! The genhold an office should be well learned by the old tleman will learn,if he looks there, thatthe anofficer before he is allowed to hold office him- gels were once driven out of Heaven for asking self. Are there not young men learning to fill for rotation in office. [Much laughter.] What office at this Clerk's desk? These very young was the difficulty in that Heavenly kingdom men are under tuition now that will fit them to that created all things? We understand that 305 some of the angels aspired to fill the highest and every principle of genuine benevolence. placel They wanted to oust the great Creator, By the enunciation of these, we seek more efand for this crime they were cast down. fectually to protect those personal rights which The gentleman said my doctrines were of a are implied in the right to life, liberty, and the Jewish character. Sir, do you recollect Nico- pursuit of happiness, and which is the parademus? Was he a Jew? What was his lan- mount object for which governments are formguage to the Saviour, and what was Christ him- ed. -self crucified for? He was put to death be- Then, sir, there is another class of provisions cause he had rendered the greatest and most which relate to the people in their aggregate important services to the people gratuitously. capacity, and what they may do, either directly Now this is the reverse of my doctrine. I or through the intervention of agents. I go as would honor men and keep them always in the far as any one for prescribing within narrow public service when their character was so ex- limits the powers of the people's agents. But alted. Then my doctrine is any thing but Jew- in what the people do directly and without the.ish, sir. intervention of agents, I go for the widest libSir, your humble servant has held office, and erty. the people did not see fit to turn him out for Our governments are founded upon an enthe long period of twenty-one years. Although tirely different principle from that of the monI held office for so long a time, yet I am now archies of the old world. The order of things poor, for what I have received has been distrib- is entirely reversed. Theirs is a false system, uted to those around me. founded upon a false philosophy-the idea that Now, sir, I have taken up some time, and I all power is derived from one man. Ours, beam sorry it has not been more profitably em- yond all controversy, is the true doctrine-that ployed, but on the present occasion I could not all power is in the people, and that all governpass over the remarks of the gentleman from ment results from their voluntary choice. The Ripley. This is a very important subject, and urther, then, they deviate in practice from the I hope gentlemen will pause before they con- theory of their governments, the better; while, lude to trammel the people in the selection of as ours is unquestionable truth, the more closetheir officers. Let us not say you shall not ly we adhere to our theory, the better, in the keep a good public servant, but you shall turn end, our system will work. him out and take in a new one. Let the old Then, sir, I apprehend that the gentleman's and tried servants keep their places just as long remarks involve these two errors: first, that ofas it is the people's will. It is not our place to fices are created for the benefit of office-holders, tie up their hands. Our country has been pros- or at least that idea is implied in his argument. perous under the old system, and we should let The other is, that it is not safe wholly to trust it remain. I hold to the good old rule, and so the people, in the management of what is pecuhelp me God, I always will, " Do unto others liarly and exclusively their own business. Upon as you would have others do to you," or, as I these two points I am at issue with him, and might say, Mr. President, do unto others as with all others who occupy the same ground. they have done to you. I was long kept in of- And I hope, indeed, sir, that two such princifice by people who placed confidence in me, ples will not be eingrafted upon the Constituand now that I am old and going into the grave tion. Both are radically wrong, and no asserI will not make an iron rule that others shall tion of them can make them right. not be kept in office as often as the people In the first place, manifestly, offices are in no ~choose to re-elect them. way designed for the benefit of the office holdMr. NILES. Mr. President: Though I am ers. The gentleman talks about "a one-armed yet hardly able, in justice to myself, to be upon man," and why turn him out He says, "bethis floor, I desire to submit a few remarks in cause there are a dozen other one-armed men reply to the gentleman from Ripley (Mr. Smith). who need the office just as much." I could I feel that questions of vital interest, affecting give a better reason. If he be an incompetent the theory if not the operations of free govern- officer, and the people see fit to turn him out, ment, are involved in this debate. And, sir, I let him go; but if he be the man whom the am fully satisfied that the gentleman's remarks people, of all others, desire to retain, let them — his entire argument and the entire position have the power to do it. The proposition may assumed-are founded upon two essential errors, be familiarly illustrated. The office holder is which, incorporate them often as you may in an agent for the people. In incorporating a Constitutions, will still be radically unsound. railroad company, with what propriety could There are two kinds of provisions which we you provide that the company-having the right make in Constitutions. In reference to the to employ agents for limited periods-should one class, I will go as far as those who go far- have no power of re-appointment? I go as far thest. They consist in declarations of palpable as any man for short terms and frequent actruths-propositions which underlie all human countability. I would not place the officer, for rights, and which cannot be violated without a long period, beyond the reach of the people, doing violence to every dictate of sound reason but I do not go for limiting the people in what 20 306 is peculiarly their own business. I would throw upon mature reflection, with a full knowledge upon them the whole responsibility of its being of the several capacities and tendencies of his well or badly done. I would not limit them as sons, may seem best, and while one son may to this power of re-appointment more than I be suited for a profession and another for agriwould an incorporated company; I would leave cultural labor, do not, by any means, compel it all to the people. We well may, as accord- the farmer to enter a profession, and thereby ing to the theory of our government, we should, pervert the natural order of things. trust the people in what is peculiarly their own I say, in conclusion, it is my deliberate judgbusiness; and the more they are trusted, ex- ment, that in all such matters, as whom they cept where we would guard paramount person- shall elect to office, you cannot trust the people al rights, the more worthy they will prove of too far. It is emphatically their own busibeing trusted, as beyond all question, the best ness-it comes in conflict with no man's perdiscipline for freemen is the exercise of the sonal rights, for no man holds a title to office. rights of freemen. They will purchase wisdom If he be a pauper or deprived of a limb, let the by experience. charities of the State support him, if need be, But the gentleman, as he said, holds to rota- but let it be remembered forever that no man tion in office, and speaks of the example of the holds a title to office. Let no principle of " roPresidency of the United States-"that no man tation in office" be fixed in the Constitutionwould dare to be a candidate after a second let the people fix it. The government is for term." Admit it; and I smbmit, sir, in all the good of the people, the officers are held earnestness, whether it was not far better that for the benefit of the people, and when the peothat rule of action should be, as it has been, ple continue one man in office, or elect another settled by the people themselves, than to have to fill his place, they violate no man's private had it fixed upon them by the Convention which rights. Therefore, I say, emphatically, this is sat in Philadelphia. I might add that the one peculiarly the people's business, and let us trust term principle is almost settled, and soon will the people, for the more they are trusted in what be. It is only another illustration of the truth is their own business, the more worthy they will that we not only should, but may with safety, be of confidence. trust the people in the management of their Mr. SMITH of Ripley. I think I underown business. stand my friend upon my left (Mr. Niles) as In regard to judges, I agree with the gentle- representing me to be opposed to the re-eligiman, that we should not fasten them as perma- bility of office-holders. He is mistaken. I nent fixtures upon the country. They should have no objection whatever to the re-eligibility be elected for reasonably short periods, but sub- of officers, but I want to limit their terms, and ject to re-election. I think it unfortunate that bring them to frequent accountability by having the judges of the Supreme Court of the United frequent elections, so that, if the people desire States are not elected by the people. But I it, they shall be rotation in office. submit it whether, if Chief Justice Marshall or Mr. RARIDEN said: My principal object Mr. Justice Story were now living, and if the in asking for the floor, was to offer my mediaelection of judges of that court were left to tion between the two members who stand opthem, you would think it wise that the people posed to each other upon this question. I think should not have the power to elevate, for a sec- it very proper that I should be the person to ond term, to that high office, either of those il- mediate between them, for they are both exlustrious ment And in answering that ques- members of Congress, and so am I; and I am tion, which must come home to the sound rea- therefore, perhaps, better prepared to decide son of every member upon this floor, do you not which of them has advanced fartherest on the settle the whole question now under debate 1 line of progression. [A voice-" we will hear At the risk of being tedious, (several voices: you."] Well, sir, I go with the gentleman no, go on, go on,) I will allude to another from Tippecanoe (Mr. Pettit) upon this ground, point. I regard this as an important matter, because he has faithfully read the history of involving great principles which I do not wish the progress of men's minds upon this subject. to see perverted in the instrument to go from I take it for granted that the gentleman from under our hands. The gentleman has asked, Ripley (Mr. Smith) is very little in advance of and all such illustrations are calculated to have men as we have seen them thirty-four years their weight, " how we should regard the con- prior to this time. What was the doctrine of duct of a farmer who, having three sons, should 18161 Itwas that the election of these officers assign to one a permanent place as a gentle- should not be confided to the people. The men in his parlor, to another the business of men of that day adhered to the old theory, that cutting wood, and to the third the work of the the people were not capable of making these farm and the position of a clownS" Now, sir, selections. Such was the importance of the I would say, impose no restrictions upon the functions of these offices that it was not considassignment of places and professions-leave it ered safe to confide their election to the people. all to the judgment and paternal affection of This was the foundation of the provision upon that father. Let him have the power to do as this subject in our present Constitution. This 307 was the reason why these elections were re- striciion, again and again; and if they see proper tained in the hands of the legislative body. But to continue the same individual in office year now time has progressed, and men's minds have after year, in consideration of the faithful disprogressed to the point where the gentleman charge of his official duties, and his complete from Tippecanoe, myself, and a few others have fulfilment of public expectation, that it is not been constrained to entertain the idea that it is at all improper for them to do so. It is merely safe to confide these elections to the people. leaving in the hands of the people the power of The gentleman from Ripley admits that the awarding meritorious services. people may be trusted a little in this matter, On the other hand, the course pursued by the but for fear they will do wrong he wants to put gentleman from Ripley results in what is called such limitations upon their power, that if they ostracism. He proceeds upon the idea, that, do wrong in these elections the wrong shall when a man becomes so popular that everybody not hurt them much, and if they do right, why, confides in him, he becomes a dangerous citizen; it is no business of ours. This theory rests ex- in fact, there is no danger to be apprehended. actly upon the point where it has been placed I am not particular, sir, about the tenure of by the gentleman from Laporte, (Mr. Niles,) these offices. I admit that there would be great and it can be entertained only by those who inconvenience to have these elections every two cherish the idea that offices are conferred mere- years, and it would greatly cheapen the offices ly for the sake of the men, and that the shorter themselves, rendering them less desirable and the tenures of our offices, the more are our important than though these elections were chances and the chances of our friends increased to take place every four years. Neverthefor obtaining them. This, Mr. President, is less, I want the people to hoid these elections radically an erroneous theory. The selections just as often as they see proper. If gentlemen to office are made with a view to the interests say, that, after a man has served two terms, of the people; not with a view to the interests he shall be disqualified, I cannot go with them. of the individuals selected; but they are selected I am not willing to assume the ground, that the because they have capacity, integrity, and fidel- officer who has served one or two terms has obity-this is the supposition, at the time, wheth- tained such an ascendancy over the minds of er right or wrong. men that no one can stand any chance against Now, if it be right to trust the people with him. the power to select their own officers, is it not But there is another consideration. I do not also right to take away all restraints upon the wish to cultivate a thirst for office in this State. exercise of this power? Why, sir, it would be The man who sets himself up to live by public an outrage to continue such a restraint. Who employment, has but very slight claims to my suffers if they make a wrong selection? It is support. The individual who sets himself up their own error, and they bear the burden of it. to cater for the taste and opinions of every These inferior offices have no analogy to the man, if he is not very free from the common office of President of the United States, whose frailties of men, will be sure to lose his charachand is filled with patronage which might be i ter for that little gem which I esteem very highused for the purposes of corruption. If it were ly, which is sometimes called candor and allowable to say that the American people could fairness; he will assume too much of the habit be at all corrupted, there would be a manifest of a species of double dealing —a way of beimpropriety in continuing this office for a long coming all things to all men. I have not much time. But as for the Auditor and Treasurer, reverence for these everlasting office-seekerswhose business is watched year after year-who those very characters which I suppose the genare held accountable in the strictest manner- tleman (Mr. Smith of Ripley) has been alluding there can be no necessity to shorten their term to. I sympathise not with such characters; and render them ineligible. and politically I raise my hand against them. This argument, in one or two things, is very In so doing, I think I would be acting as a reradical. Either it embraces the idea that the publican. Nevertheless, whenever the majority possession of office is a means of making party here shall decide against me, I will rest satiscapital, or else a means of corrupting men- fled that they are right, and I am wrong in some upon the supposition that our fellow-citizens sense. Privately, I will think and speak what may be corrupted by the inducements which I please; but publicly I will say, vox populii they may be able to hold out-both of which vox dei. ideas, in my judgment, are radically erroneous. Mr. OWEN. Mr. PRESIDENT: I have arisen I ask the gentleman (Mr. Smith of Ripley) to chiefly for the purpose of recommending to the consider that we have progressed from the time Convention to look back toward the point from when, in 1816, it was assumed that the people which we started. What is the question l were incapable of selecting their own officers. Could any man tell who had been listening to We are all now in favor of trusting them with this discussion for two or three days past. Such making these selections. And a few gentle- a man would certainly come to the conclusion, men, with myself, entertain the idea that they that the matter under discussion was, whether may be trusted in this matter, without re- any officer of the State should be re-eligible, 308 after having served one, or at most, two terms. provisions of the first article of our present ConBut no such question as that is before us. We stitution-it matters little which-and examine are deciding the question whether the Auditor its character and effects. The first that strikes and Treasurer of State, shall be elected and re- my eye, is the section touching imprisonment main together here for a longer term than four for debt. years. Now, all my votes upon this subject "The person of a debtor, where there is not have been decided upon the conviction, that it is strong presumption of fraud, shall not be conwiser and better that these two officers-the tinued in prison after delivering up his estate one holding the purse of the State; and the oth- for the benefit of his creditor." er, the officer who draws upon that purse for ev- Now, is this a restriction on the Legislature ery disbursement-should not remain together alone, or on the people also 3 Suppose the peofor a longer term than fouryears. I have voted pie think it best that a debtorshall be continued in this way, because I think men ought not to in prison after he has surrendered his estate. be led into temptation. This is a principle to Can they instruct their representatives in the which we often advert in our prayers; and it is State Legislature to pass a law to that effect? a true principle in regard to the regulation of and then, perhaps, next year, to repeal it if the conduct of men. I have not that bad opin- it no longer suit them? Clearly not. When ion of mankind which many profess. I do not they consented to adopt the Constitution, they believe in human depravity, in the sense of abandoned their right to pass any such law. which many understand that phrase, but I say Let us try another section. " The Legislathere are temptations to which men ought not ture shall not grant any title of nobility." A to be exposed; and to which, if they are, some very unnecessary provision, truly; but imagine will surely fall. For this reason, I desire to see the case, that the people should desire to grant inserted in the Constitution a restriction to the to some idolized favorite, a patent of nobility, effect that no two officers, with such intimate can they require of their Legislature to decree relations in the discharge of their respective its issue? They cannot. While the Constituduties, coming here together, at the seat of gov- tion remains unamended, neither the Legislature ernment, should be permitted to remain togeth- nor the people can do this thing. er longer than four years. In my judgment, Mr. RARIDEN. I beg pardon for interruptthat would be a wise restriction. ing the gentleman from Posey, but I desire disWith reference to the reasons that have been tinctly to understand whether he means to say, given by the gentleman from Laporte, (Mr. that the article of the Constitution which reNiles,) and the gentleman from Wayne, on my stricts the Legislature from creating titles of left, (Mr. Rariden,) why we ought to make no nobility, is a restraint upon the rights of the such restrictions, I have a few words to say. I people or a restraint upon the Legislature? have taken down the words of the gentleman Mr. OWEN. So long as this Constitution is from Laporte; and, speaking of this restriction, the organic law of the land, it is clearly and he says, "it is urged by those who are not wil- undeniably a restriction upon the rights of the ling to trust the people with the management people. of their own affairs." The words of the gen- It this be not the case, what is the object of tleman from Wayne, were: " if it be right to a Constitution! If it does not effect this, what trust the election of officers to the people at all, does it effect T In a Constitution, the people it is certainly right and proper to take all re- agree to impose certain restraints upon themstraints from them." If this be so, we had bet- selves. In a calm moment, they decide upon ter go home at once; for our whole object in sit- certain general and permanent rules of action, ting here, as I understand it, is to propose a from which, in their annual law-making, they Constitution which shall restrain the power of will not depart, just as a good man restrains and the people themselves, as well as restrain the governs himself by the dictates of moral prinlegislative power. ciple. Mr. RARIDEN (interposing). Will the But now, sir, to revert to the immediate matgentleman allow me to correct him t ter on hand, the terms of Auditor and TreasuMr. OWEN. I shall be most happy to be rer. The gentleman from Wayne (Mr. Raricorrected, if I am wrong. den) said, on a previous occasion, when speakMr. RARIDEN. We differ only about the ing of the election of these officers, as now design, or the intention of Constitutional re- proposed, by the people, that that election would, straint upon the people. I contend that it is in fact, be governed by a caucus nomination, simply the intention of the Constitution to re- here at the seat of government; that those who -strain the representatives of the people; and that are sometimes called wire-workers would make all the rights of the people, as defined in the themselves busy here, and place before the peoConstitution, are left with themselves; and, that pie the rival aspirants. Say that this be true, Constitutional restraints have reference only to then the gentleman has furnished the strongest the legislative power. argument against his own position. If a cauMr. OWEN (resuming). To get definitely cus vote determine the candidates for these ofat this matter, let us take up some one of the fices, then the non-re-eligibility clause which 309 we are now discussing, resolves itself into this, re-election, is not fettering the will of the peothat the people are forbidding a continued nom- pie, because, after the expiration of four years, ination of the same individual by a caucus at when he becomes ineligible to re-election for Indianapolis. It is the people, in effect, saying that particular office, he has the right to serve to that caucus, " twice you may nominate the the public in any other capacity in which he same individual, but the third time you may not may be chosen. For my own part, I would like do it." That, if the gentleman's premises be to limit the tenure of the office of Governor to correct, is the substantial effect of the consti- two years, also. I would have all the State oftutional restriction he opposes. ficers elected but for two years, and then ineliI am not speaking here to the question of gible for re-election, but to "lay out" for two non-re-eligibility in elections generally. That years and give time'and convenient opportunity will come up by and by. I confine my remarks for a thorough examination of all their doings to the case of Auditor and Treasurer; and so while in office. I presume that every delegate far, I approve the principle as wise and pru- in this chamber knows the will of his people dent. upon this subject. Then let us act accordingly, Mr. WOLFE. Mr. President, the first ques- and act promptly. Why talk about restraining tion for us to ask ourselves at the present time the people! I tell you they want their officers is, what have we come up here for? We came restrained, and that is all this section proposes. here, sir, to organize a government. To that The general desire is to get competent men government properly belong three departments, in all our offices, and gentlemen tell us that the executive, the judicial, and the legislative. those who have been long in office are most We are also here to provide for important re- likely to be competent men. We have men in forms, one of which is to throw all the elections training for every office in the country, from the directly to the people, except the election of office of coroner or justice of the peace up to United States Senator, which the Constitution that of president of the United States. And of the United States provides shall be made by here in Indiana, where we have a million inthe Legislature. It has been objected to this habitants, can we not get competent and proper proposition to render office holders ineligible for men to do all the business of the people? Sir, re-election, that we were limiting the rights of we have thousands of upright men who are the people. Now, when we prescribe limita- competent to fill every office in the State, and tions to the terms of office, it is the office hold- there is therefore no necessity for cavil against ers we limit, not the people. For my own part, short terms on the ground of turning out comI am in favor of restricting a man from being petent and getting in incompetent officers. eligible to office after two terms. I hold to the Where is the safeguard of the people! It is old adage, "short settlements make long in requiring of all her officers a frequent acfriends." I believe fully in that. The people countability. I would even go so far as to fix are almost unanimous in taking this view of the the per diem allowance of members of the Legsubject. The people desire, whether a man islature, and the salaries of all the State offishall stay in office one or two terms, at the end cers. I know that many of the people are in of four years, if the officer shall have served so favor of that being done in the Constitution. long, they desire that a new man should come I have noticed in the debate this morning into his office and examine his books and ac- that there appears to be a difficulty in undercounts, to see that every thing is right and standing whether offices should be regarded as proper. When a merchant or a railroad com- for the benefit of the office-holders, or for the pany employs clerks and agents, they always sole benefit of the people. I take it as a clear have access to the books and papers to satisfy and undeniable proposition, that offices never themselves that their business is correctly and were designed for the benefit of the officehonestly conducted. But the people cannot holder. My opinion and view of the matter is, come up in a body to the capital to look into that it is one of the necessary evils of society, the accounts of their servants. Therefore, they that we have to have offices and salaries, and send up one of their number to fill the office- office-holders. But offices should be held for to examine as it is his duty the condition of the the benefit of the people solely, and in re-orpublic interests in that quarter, and if there be ganizing the government we should so fix the any thing wrong, to report the same to the peo- terms of office, the condition of eligibility and pie. The new officer can have no interests in re-eligibility, and the anmount of salary, as to common with the old incumbent; on the con- render this evil as small a one as possible. But, trary, it is to his interest to make all proper in- sir, it is a doctrine that I. for one, have yet to vestigation and corrections where any are need- learn, that offices were ever designed to be held ed. If he succeeds in ferreting out and expus- for the benefit of the office-holder. Therefore, ing corruption and fraud in the former admin- in examining this question, I do not look at istration of his office, the people will have con- that point, I do not stop to inquire whether infidence in him. Hence it is to the interest of the eligibility will benefit or hurt the office-holder. new officer to guard the rights of the people. I do not care how it affects him; the question To render an officer ineligible to more than one for me is, how w'll the interests of the people 310 be best secured? Will thi's measure guard their I thority, and instituted for their peace, safety, interests and protect their rightsl We should and happiness. For the advancement of these thoroughly purge the legislative department; ends the people have at all times an inalienathe people expect this of us. They expect us ble right to alter and reform their government." to take away from the Legislature the power of I will contrast the proposed amendment of impeachment, and the power to grant divorces. the gentleman from Posey (Mr. Owen) to the and so to organize that department of the State declaration of rights, which properly declares government that it shall no longer be a mere that all power is inherent in the people, so far law enacting and law repealing body.' Now, as to their self-government, but no farther, and let us do allthese things that the people want and that they have absolute power and control over expect we will do. Every man knows very ac- their own representatives and all officers of curately what the people want, and we will not State. How, I ask, does the proposition under give any new light as to the wishes and opin- consideratton compare in principle with the one ions of his constituents by the debate here. proposed to the bill of rights by the gentleman All the arguments used here on the various from Posey (Mr. Owen); the one recognizes questions that have been up, have changed few all power to govern in the people, and the prominds. We had the Grand Jury question up position under consideration positively denies for a week, and all that debate has not changed that power as belonging, naturally, to the peoa single mind. [Several voices-" That's a pie, by both depriving them of the right of conmistake;" "I was changed."] Well, I did not ferring, by their suffrage, office a second term know that a single mind had been changed. I upon the same person, and in declaring that a am glad if the debate effected good. But we faithful public officer, although he may have have reasonable duties to perform here, and I discharged every duty imposed upon him with wish to urge their speedy performance. I am S honesty and fidelity to the public, yet he shall glad to see the good spirit which has thus far not offer himself as a candidate for re-election characterized all our discussions. Let us go on to the same office, thus depriving them of a as expeditiously as possible, and get through with natural inalienable right which they have inthe consideration of these questions, upon herited from their forefathers, who acquired it which there is a division of sentiment and for them when they, by the lavish expenditure opinion. of their blood and treasure, obtained the liberty I am in favor of the section as reported by of this republic. You restrict the citizen of this the committee, and shall vote against every State by this proviso, from exercising a natural amendment. It is time that the question was and inalienable right that should never be tasettled. ken from him. I ask in all seriousness if this Mr. HENDRICKS. The debate has taken proviso is not in opposition to the fundamental a wide range already. For the present, I move organic law of the country. And yet it is proto lay the amendment on the table. posed to impose this restriction upon American Mr. NAVE. I have heard complaints made freemen. upon this floor against too much speech-making, It appears to me, sir, then, that the principle and of gentlemen occupying the time of the proposed in the declaration of rights, which I Convention unnecessarily; but when I see a have referred to, of this State, is in direct conquestion under consideration of so important tradiction to the terms of the amendment now a character a, the present one, I cannot, for under consideration, which provide for depriving one, remain still in my place, or refrain from the citizen. of the right to vote for an incumexpressing my entire disapprobation of the pro- bent who may have served faithfully for two viso contained in this section. It is a proviso, terms, for a third or more terms. For that reassir, that will destroy a fundamental and indu- on I am opposed to the entire section. Gentlebitable right of the people of this State. It i men may boast much of their rights as freemen directly proposes to deprive the people of that of this republic, but I have only to say by the right which, as American freemen, we have present section under consideration, you restrict ever held to be secured and guaranteed to us, the right of suffrage by preventing the people as well by the provisions of our glorious Dec- from voting for those whom they prefer if they laration of Independance, as by the present ex- have already held office; thus thereby sapping isting organic laws of the State of Indiana. at the very foundation of the rights of the AmerIn answer to the remarks of the gentleman ican citizen. from Posey, (Mr. Owen,) I will state, sir, that Mr. CLARK of Tippecanoe. I desire, sir, he proposes to incorporate into the bill of I before the vote is taken upon this question to rights, by his amendment, a provision that, in make a word of explanation. I stated the othmy humble judgment, will secure all that could er day that I was willing to extend the term of be desired by the people of Indiana in future. the Auditor to four years. but during the proI will read the amendment. gress of this debate I have changed my views " We declare that all power is inherent in! on that point, and I desire now to state briefly the people, and that all free governments are, j the reasons. But I will first say a few words and of right ought to be, founded on their au- I on the principle involved in this question. 311 The gentlemen who advocate the perpetual derived that "where annual elections end, tyre-eligibility of these officers insist that it is an ranny begins." unnecessary restraint on the power of the peo- Allow me to say with reference to this quespie to choose whomsoever they may prefer to tion of the Auditor, that it is possible our be their officers. They say it implies a suspi- system of banking may be changed, and new cion of the wisdom and capacity of the people; duties assigned to that officer in connection with that, in fact, it is a denial of the right and ca- our monied institutions, and thus his power pacity of the people to govern themselves. greatly increased. And the same reasons They ask are we afraid to trust the people? I which require that the tenure of office of the answer we are not. The people, at least their Treasurer of State, should have some definite representatives, in their original and primary limit and termination, may with equal force be capacity, exercise the high and solemn power applied to this officer. I shall, therefore, vote of prescribing and fixing limits to the powers of that the Auditor's term of office shall be the the government. The question now is not how same as that of the Treasurer. far we will trust the people, but how much au- Mr. GIBSON said, Mr. PRESIDENT:-We thority we will grant to those officers with whom have just witnessed an exhibition, which I hope we, the people, entrust the powers of govern- not to see repeated on this floor. While an ment? How long will the people part with amendment was under discussion, involving a their power? How long shall the officer hold highly important principle, and at a moment it before he returns it to those from whom he when members were endeavoring to obtain the derives it? floor for the purpose of participating in the deI understand, sir, that all free governments bate, one of the opponents of that amendment, have limited powers, and the tenure of office is who had the good fortune to catch the eye of at least not perpetual. Now, sir, as I am some- the President, moved to lay the amendment on what old fashioned, I will follow the gentleman the table, and that motion was sustained by the from Ripley, as my Democratic leader on this vote of the Convention. This, sir, is applying subject, as he is said to be a little old in his the gag to debate, and that in the most odious opinions, advocating doctrines that were sup- form. I repeat, sir, that I hope, that, as it was posed to be true some twenty years since, I the first, it will be the last exhibition of the have no sympathy with those progressives kind we shall be called upon to witness. whose reforms lead from republicanism towards If upon any subject upon which it shall bedespotism. Now, sir, it is an old fashioned come our duty to act, but a single member of maxim that power has a tendency to draw to it- this body should differ in opinion from myself, self additional power, to entrench itself by ev- I, for one, am willing to listen to him, until he ery means possible. To counteract this, the has exhausted all arguments that he may wish terms of office (for the officers possess the power to offer. of the government,) in republics are made short. An example was afforded the other day in the The people frequently resume that power which debate on negro suffrage. The gentleman from they had parted with, and in important offices, Steuben (Mr. May) had the moral courage, the officer rendered ineligible, that he may not though standing alone in his opinions, boldly usurp power, and control or defy the people. to advocate the extension of suffrage to the Gentlemen say this prohibition of re-eligibility negro race. Upon that question he and I are is a new edition of the Athenian ostracism, as widely separated as heaven is from hell; yet, which banished citizens who had become too sir, I would have been the last man, by vote or powerful. The Athenians resorted to this con- act of mine to abridge in the slightest degree trivance because the powers of their govern- any remarks he might wish to make upon the ment were not properly balanced; and the au- question. And that, sir, is in my opinion, the thority of their great officers was not sufficient- spirit which should actuate this body, in the disly limited and defined. The powerful citizens charge of the high trust committed to their often usurped the whole power of the govern- keeping. ment, and established themselves permanently I would, sir, especially deprecate any attempt in office. Hence they were suspicious and of- to force a vote upon the question of inelligibiltentimes unjust to their great men. But at ity, at this time, when nearly one-third of the Rome, in the age of the republic, the powers members of this body are absent. It is one, of the government were better balanced, and perhaps, of no great practical importance; but the election of consuls, and most other officers, involving, as I conceive it does, the very princiwere annual. Far greater confidence was pie which lies at the foundation of our governgranted by the people to their great officers. ment, and upon which rests the whole structure, But when the people of Rome invested the the right and capability of the people to govern decemvirate with indefinite authority, and un- themselves; it derives from that fact an importlimited tenure, for the mere purpose of present- ance, which demands our most careful deliberaing a code or revision of the laws, they attempt- tion. It is a question no less than this; are the ed to usurp the whole power of the State. people of Indiana capable of selecting, at the Hence, I apprehend the proverb may have been ballot-box, the officers necessary to carry on the 312 government; are they to betrusted in the unre- round with restraints, that half the freedom of strained exercise of this power; or do they need elections will be lost, to insure the triumph of the restraining hand of this Convention to pre- an isolated political principle, having no proper vent its abuse. Were the fathers of the repub- connection with organic law" lie right, when they announced to the world Shall we go home, sir, to our constituents, that man was capable of self-government. or and tell them, that coming here pledged, as we are we to believe the monarchists of Europe, did, to extend elections by the people to all offiwhen they tell us that the experiment of repub- ces-pledged to take from the Legislature the licanism must sooner or later fail, and that the elections which it now has, and give them to masses are not to be entrusted with power! the people; that after declaiming from every This sir, is the true question involved in the rostrum in our respective counties, about the section under discussion; and those who advo- right and the capability of the people to elect cate the proviso, differ only from the monarch- their own officers, shall we, I say, tell them that ists of the old world in the length to which they after all this, the very first section of the new would carry the principle, and not in the princi- Constitution which we adopted, contained a reple itself-The one is not willing to trust the striction upon the elective franchise. people at all-the other is willing to repose half That while we took from the Legislature the confidence in them. power of electing a Secretary of State, TreasWith regard to the length of the term for urer, and Auditor, we conferred it with a grudgwhich these officers are to be elected, it is a ing hand upon the people. That we placed requestion of minor importance, and one in which strictions upon them that had never been thought I feel but little interest. It is the principle necessary or proper, when the election was in contained in the proviso, which I desire to com- the hands of the legislature. What -other conbat; and I would here remark, that I agree with struction could be put upon such a provision, the gentleman from Ripley, (Mr. Smith,) that than that we believed the masses were less to if it is proper in principle to apply this pro- be trusted than the Legislaturel viso to one office, it is proper to apply it to all; But let us look for a moment at the practical but, I believe sir, I agree with him in nothing effect of this principle when we shall come to else. apply it to the election of not merely these, but That gentleman has entered into a labored all other officers in the State-you say in effect argument tending to show the propriety of ro- to the people of a county, you may elect your tation in office; an argument that would have own clerk, or sheriff, or auditor; but for fear been admirable on the stump, and directed that you may not be capable of acting with due against an opponent who had, perhaps, grown judgment in this matter, we impose this restrictgray in office. It is a principle about which, ion upon you; that you may elect any other perhaps, there is but little difference in opinion, man than the one whom a majority desire, and either in this body or among the people at large; whom you know to be qualified. That man you but gentlemen seem to forget the difference be- shall not elect, but among all others you are tween the people's being influenced in their free to choose. I repeat it, sir, that the whole, votes by such a principle, and having it thrust and only effect of this proviso is to prevent the upon them as an inexorable rule to which no ex- election of the men whom the majority of the ception should be allowed, and from which, un- State or a county may desire; because, if a der no circumstances are they to be allowed to candidate is not the choice of a majority, he depart. will, of course, be beaten at the polls, and this A MEMBER, (offering a book,) read what proviso has no effect on him one way or the Mr. Jefferson says. other. He is just as sure of being turned out of Mr. GIBSON. I would rather know first, office without the proviso as with it. It is only which side of the question he is on. I yield to the officer whom the people would re-elect, that no man, sir, in reverence of the mighty minds, is to be turned out of office by it. It is as I of the past, those said before, saying in so many words to the peo"Dead but sceptred sovreigns ple, that the man whom the majority desire is That still rule our spirits from their urns." the man, and the only man for whom you are But neither the authority of Jefferson, or any prohibited to vote. other man, has weight enough with me, to carry i Sir, if this is not a restriction of the right with it a provision as monstrous in principle as of suffrage, I am unable to understand the I conceive this to be. meaning of language, and, if it is, then sir, we As I was remarking, sir, the true issue to be shall be false to our pledges to the people if we determined, is not the propriety of rotation in adopt it; for, upon no other subject, perhaps, office, as a political principle, for about that there has so much been said upon the stump, by deieis but little difference of opinion; but whether gates during the past summer, as upon the cathat, which has heretofore had no greater force, pacity of the people to elect their own officers. than what its own merit entitled it to have, shall And now, sir, when we come to carry out the now be raised to the dignity of a Constitutional principles we there advocated, gentlemen shrink principle; whether we shall so hedge the voter back in doubt, and ask, is this safe, can we trust 313 these elections in the hands of the masses with- her daughters, had procured the legislature to out any restraint? Must we not guard the peo- pass a special law, requiring her at all times, pie against themselves. For one, sir, I have no under all circumstances, foreseen or unforeseen, fears on the subject. I have never known an to adhere to the line of conduct she had marked incompetent officer re-elected by the people, out, then sir, the analogy would have been perbut have known such, beaten with a party ma- feet, and he is welcome to all the force his arjority in their favor, and party discipline to sus- gument can derive from such an example. tain them. I have before said, that the principle of rotaThe gentleman from Posey, (Mr. Owen,) to tion in office, as a principle for the guidance of whose remarks I always listen with the great- political parties, is a good one; and receives alest deference, has endeavored to show that all most unanimous assent. Constitutional restraints are but so many curbs Gentlemen ask, whythen notadoptit3 In upon the will of the masses, and that there isreturn, I would ask them, why not engraft upon no realdifference between restraints upon the th Constitution all other political maxims power of the executive and legislative depart- which may receive the assent of the majority ments, and restraint upon the people them- A large majority of this body belong to the selves. The argument was ingenious, but not democratic party; they would assent to the even the ingenuity of the gentleman can sustain proposition, that it is desirable that our future a proposition so obviously wrong. There is governors should be democrats; but is any gensir, a difference, plain and palpable. To carry tleman prepared to say, that he, would make on the operations of government, and frame the democracy a constitutional qualification for the laws under which the citizens of a State are to office; that he would chalk out a political creed live, Legislative bodies are necessaty. To to which every aspirant for office should subrestrain the action of those bodies within their scribe. There is no one argument that has been proper sphere, the people in their sovereign ca-offered on behalf of the proviso under considerapacity, embody in a written Constitution, the tion, that would not apply with equal force for restrictions necessary and proper for that pur- the adoption of such a provision. pose. pose. Let us try it, and see whether I am right or But the case is widely different, when that Letus try it, and see whether I am right or same people undertake to impose restraints upon not Frst, I willsay as the friends of this prothemselves. vis say of it;a th te principles of the demoIn the one instance, it is the master dictating cratic party are the true basis of republicanism. to his servants the limits within which they are Right, says the majority. to act; in the other, it would be that same mas- Therefore. it is desirable and every way propter imposing shackles upon his own free ac- er that the officers of the State, should be memtion. bers of that party. All right, again will be reI will go, as far perhaps, as any other member sponded by the democratic majority. in tying up the hands of the Legislature; in de- But the people in their elections do not alfining clearly and distinctly, the limits of their ways follow this rule; they sometimes elect power; but, when gentlemen propose to place whigs. shackles upon the elective franchise, in the pri- Too true, indeed, would be the response. mary elections of the people; to establish a cen- Therefore, if the principle is a good one-but sor over the ballot box; to say, in short, to the the people will not always keep it in rememmasses, those elections which we take from the brance-let us by constitutional provision, force legislature, we give into your hands, but we them to observe it. There, sir, is the whole cannot wholly trust you; you are so'liable to be strength of the argument in favor of ineligibility corrupted by patronage, so easily misled, that on account of previous incumbency, and I ask you will not change your officers sufficiently in all fairness, is it not just as good in the case often, if we do not force you to do so. I say, put by me, as in the one now under consicerasir, when such a principle as this is proposed tion. to be made part of the organic law; I cannot in We are told sir, that when a man once gets any shape or form sustain it. into office, it is very difficult to get him out again, The gentleman from Ripley (Mr. Smith) is that hetwill use, and use successfully his posifond of reasoningfrom analogy, and has present- tion and patronage, to secure a re-election. ed us two, as he deems them, analogous cases- To get rid of this evil, gentlemen must -o one drawn from the stable, the other from the one step further; they must say not merely that drawing-room. the Auditor, or other officer shall not be re-electI must confess his sketch of domestic felicity ed to the office he held, but they must class him was happily drawn; it lacked but one feature to with the felons of the land, and say he shall make the analogy perfect, and that is, resem- not be eligible to any office whatever. blance to the question before us. If the gen- Cannot the Treasurer of State, use the same tleman had carried his picture a little further, influences to procure his election to the office of if he had told us, that the mother doubting her Auditor, or Secretary of State, that he would own stability of purpose in the management of use to secure his re-election as Treasurer, and 314 would they not be as potent in one case as now under their control and management, near anotherl a million of dollars of trust funds. These If the people are the unsafe guardians of pow- funds are loaned at the discretion of those offier, which the arguments of gentlemen assume cers, upon mortgages, with the power to call the them to be; if it is really necessary to guard fund in or extend the time of payment. They them against their own blindness, let vs at least, have immense discretionary power over these do it effectually. Let us leave open no avenue funds: they are loaned to many hundred citizens through which designing politicians can lead of the State, and to such citizens as these offithem astray. I think, however, gentlemen cers may select from the thousand applicants would pause long before they would take such that desire accommodations. a step, though their own arguments lead natu- And, sir, upon the winding up of our State rally to its adoption. Bank, there will be near one million more adSir, the agitation of this question comes not ded to the credit of the State, and, no doubt, from the masses of the people themselves. It will be put under the control of these officers, is not in the nature of man, voluntarily to to be managed as other trust funds are managed. abridge his own rights and privileges. They do To this you may add near three-quarters of not distrust themselves, nor do the advocates of a million of dollars every year of State revthis measure really distrust them. This ques- enue, and, should the system of free banking, tion, sir, had its origin among a class of small as now proposed, (and I have little doubt will be beer politicians in the State, whose only hope adopted,) which contemplates banking upon U. of office, rests upon the exclusion of all better States and Indiana stocks, and money; all men, by rendering them ineligible; who think to be deposited with these officers; we may reaif they can only keep the wheel in motion, their sonably suppose that there will be five million turn will surely come after awhile; who expect more. In a word, these officers will, in the to get into office as some men get on juries, by form of revenue, trust tunds, and bank security, hanging around the court-house until the regu- command the management and control of at lar pannel is exhausted, and they are taken least from eight to ten millions of dollars, and from necessity, not choice. every year increasing, without check or reAgainst the proviso in question, as applied to straint. And, as you contemplate, byyour new the offices under consideration, and wherever it Constitution that you will have biennial sesmay be attempted to be made part of the Con- sions of the Legislature, the consequence will stitution, and whatever form it may assume, I be the concentration and centering of an im-.shall be at all times ready to record my vote. r mense and irresistable influence and power in Mr. WALPOLE. The provision to the sec- their hands-a power I fear too strong for the tion now under consideration, which provides freedom of elections. that the Auditor and Treasurer of State shall This immense power in the hands of two not serve more than four years in any term ot men bent upon retaining power, would be felt six years, has been violently assailed by the gen- from the centre to the circumference of your tleman from Clark, (Mr. Gibson,) and others. State; it would be an element used to continue Various amendments have been proposed, to the dominant party in power, be it either whig change its character. Entertaining the views I or democrat. do, and feeling myself called upon to assign my It is to guard and protect the elective franreasons for sustaining the provision, I shall do chise against temptation to corruption-to.so in a few words. Our government, in all its maintain the purity of elections that shall govdepartments, is elective. Elections are the ern my vote. source and fountain of its life-its perpetuity de- It is provided in that portion of your Constipends upon their purity, and we should guard it tution which is known as "the bill of rights," with care. The elective franchise is, therefore, that all "elections shall be free and equal." the greatest and proudest privilege of the citi- Will your elections be free and equal when a zen, and I will go as far as any member to pro- private citizen is opposed by a public officertect its purity. But, I ask, how maintain it? an incumbent-backed by the immense treasIt is to be maintained by keepingthe ballot box ures and power I have alluded to so iinperfectly? pure from the approach of corrupting influences; No, sir, but to guard against it let us carry out and this is to be effected by keeping it free from that patriotic declaration that there shall be the patronage which public officers command, equality in elections. and too frequently apply to attain their object. I know I am not taxing your credulity too Let not the patronage of office be brought in high, when I ask you to credit me in my firm conflict with the freedom of elections, is my ob- belief, that men may and will use place, and ject and desire. i power, as appliances upon the ballot box. The Auditor and Treasurer of this State have You are familiar with the dudes, as well as always an immense amount of public funds at the powers of your county Auditor's and Treasutheir disposal, and thus an immense patronage eer; they act in a circumscribed circle, in com(if such it may be called) which they may use parison with your State officers. Yet their duto perpetuate thernselves in office. They have ties are not unlike; they have trust funds at their 315 command, and under their control, but not one question of power, in this convention to incorhundredth part that your State Auditor and porate a provision abolishing the long and well Treasurer manages. settled principle of the common law, which reYet they understand the secret of accommo- quires that no one shall be called to answer to dations. They are not unmindful that money a charge for crime except upon presentment and is power, and true to themselves, if not to duty, indictment. they never fail to use their position and power, It occurs to me, after reading the compact for their self or party advancement. Few, if referred to, that to say the least, that our powany instances have occurred of a county Audiror er is doubtful and deserves the careful examinbeing displaced. If any such instances have -ation and deliberation of this body, and so far occurred, I do not know of them. as I am concerned, I will not as a representative I have always thought we have conferred too of the people in this body exercise a doubtful much discretion on the officers of State and authority, nor do I think it the part of wisdom counties over our large trust funds; our system, for this body to do otherwise. That the question is a borrowed system; a system concocted by is encompassed in doubt none will have the tepoliticians-not statesmen-their purposes not merity to controvert. If, however, the question to secure your Treasurers, but to use them for after receiving that consideration which I think party. purposes, persons and party have used, it should command, is settled on the side of powand will continue to use them, as long as mon- er; I and those that think as I do, will feel free ey may be found useful in elections. to meet the proposition as one exempt from conOur system is called a system for collecting stitutional objection and will then meet it as one and disbursing the public revenue-while it ap- purely of expediency. parently does this, it is a system to perpetuate My motion and the points of inquiry that I power. have propounded, fully, distinctly indicates the Your State Auditor end Treasurer will always ground of denial to the exercise of the powerbethe head of one or the other of the politi- but that the convention may better understand cal parties, the county Auditor and Treasurer me and without at all going into a discussion of of their party,and their adjuncts, and the money the motion I have made, I desire to lay before and trust funds of the people will be used as the convention briefly the hypothesis leaving the bane to the purity of elections. the conclusion for the committee to report. Then there will be no security against this The ordinance of the 13th July 1787 as is well combination unless you render the head ineli- known to the members of this convention, was gible after the second term, and I fear this will adopted prior to the adoption of the federal connot altogether effect the purpose I hope for. stitution; a portion of the ordinance was subject to amendment and repeal, a portion of it how----- -- ever, to employ its own emphatic words, "shall be considered articles of compact between the MONDAY MORNING, Nov. 4, 1850. original states and the people and states in said The convention met, and was opened by pray- territory and forever remain unalterable unless er by the Rev. Mr. Babb.-Journal read and ap- by common consent." approved.- The second article of the ordinance, being of GRAND JURY SYSTEM. that portion of the same which is declared to be The convention then proceeded under a spe- a compact, among other wise and patriotic procial order to the consideration of Mr. Pettit's res- visions, provides that ( judicial proceedings shall olution for abolishing the grand jury system: be according to the course of common law and Mr. WALPOLE rose and said: that these and other provisions of the compact MIr. PRESIDENT, I move the resolution and shatl never without the consent of the original proposed amendments be committed to a select states and the people and states of the territory," committee withinstructions toreport upon the (meaning the states of the territory north west following points': First, are presentments and in- of the river Ohio.) and forevor remain unalterdictments in judicial proceedings according to the able, unless by common consent. course of common law: Secondly, if so, to abro- This compact has been confirmed by the federal gate the grand jury system would not the same constitution. If I am not mistaken when I say violate the second article of the compact of the that the compact is ratified by the federal con13th July 1787 which guaranties the benefit of stitution, then I venture little in hazarding the judicial proceedings according to the course of opinion that the power of this convention over common law, to the inhabitants of this State: the question is a doubtful power. Thirdly, is not said compact confirmed by the If the compact is confirmed by the federal federal constitution and binding upon the people constitution, are we not concluded? The conand the State. gress of the United States by its act of the 19th I have no wish, nor shall I at this time debate April 1816 regarded as a free open question as the policy of the original question. to validity of the compact upon the original My purpose is to settle a question which I states and the people and the states of the terithink, is paramount to that of policy-that is the | tory, by the act last referred to they authorized 316 the inhabitants of the Indiana territory to form the United States, and of nearly every State. a constitution for a state government, by enjoin- Not only do these Constitutions declare that ing that the constitution of the state should not no man shall be convicted of any crime but by be repugnant to the articles of compact of the a jury of good and lawful men, but in that ten13th July 1787. der regard for human freedom which constitutse The framers of the present constitution re- their very essence, they declare that no man garded the compact as obligatory upon the peo- shall even be put to trial upon a criminal charge ple and the state and the present constitution without the intervention and sanction of a jury embraces every right provided for in that com- of such men. pact. It is worth;the'few moments' time of gen- Why, sir, in the humane design of the law to tlemen to read the ordinance, the federal consti- throw over every man a broad and impenetratution confirming it, the act of congress author- ble shield, so that he may by day go abroad izing the forming of the state constitution, all of without fear of the machinations of private rnalwhich may be found in the volume containing ice or political persecution, and by night lie the revised laws of the state for 1843. Without down in security, what more could it do. Here further remarks I will repeat my instructions. is a double defence; here is an outer and an in1st Are presentments and indictments in judi- ner wall of protection. Not in a single Amercial proceedings according to the course of com- ican State have these walls, either the one or mon law? This question all will answer in the the other, been broken down. I venture, sir, affirmative and that they can as common law, not in a country or colony where the common emanate from no other power than from a grand law-our own common law-is known, or where jury. the Anglo-Saxon race dwells. In regard to 2d If so, to abrogate the grand jury system London, to which reference has been made, an will it not violate the second article of the com- examination of the facts will show that in that pact of the 13th July 1787, as guaranties the great receptacle of crime, where there is conbenefit of judicial proceedings according to the stantly a world's convention of rogues, so far as course of common law, to the inhabitants of this abolished, it has been as to smaller offences. state. not as to capital crimes, and for the purpose of 3d Is not said compact confirmed by the fed- giving the police magistracy more summary eral compact and binding upon the people and power in such cases. the state! Not only has the Grand Jury gone with eveThe consideration of the motion of the gen- ry Anglo-Saxon colony, whether to Austrailia tleman from Hancock (Mr. Walpole) for the or to New Zealand, to California or to Minesota, present, was passed by. but it has overcome national prejudice, and by Mr. TERRY, of Davis having the floor on its own intrinsic excellence been introduced into the main question proceeded at length in oppos- rival systems of jurisprudence. The jury of inition to the original proposition offered by Mr. quiry-the Grand Jury-was, by the ConstituPettit. To enable Mr. T. to revise his speech tion of 1830, adopted in France as anew bulwark its publication at his request is delayed. of safety to the French citizen. Strange that Mr. READ of Monroe. I desire, Mr. Presi- while the sons of freedom elsewhere should be dent, at this stage of the proceeding to submit struggling for this very institution, we should a few remarks upon the very grave proposition be here debating whether we shall not give it introduced into this Convention by my friend, up! the gentleman from Tippecanoe. i Mr. President, I pause-I hesitate. I would For the first time in any American Constitu- i as soon walk boldly forward, leaning upon the tional Convention, or in any law-making body arm of that gentleman (pointing to Mr. Pettit) having power over the subject, in any country as upon that of any other in the Convention. of the world where the common law prevails, No man has a brawnier arm, whether for attack is it now, and in this body, proposed to abolish or for defence; no one a bolder heart or steadthe Grand Jury system. ier step, or a more right onward purpose. I like Other parts of the common law, in the pro- his company-nay, sir, I like his lead. I shall gress of opinion, have been changed or modi- not, I trust, in our work have occasion to part fled; other parts have been stricken down and with him often. Indeed, sir, I know that in my swept away by the tide of improvement. But humble way I shall, for the most part, be with that principle which requires that no person hi m. shall be put upon his trial-shall be held even But when I am asked to lay the axe to the to answer publicly to an accusation for a capi- brave old oak which has so long sheltered a race tal or otherwise infamous cri-e-until men of of freemen, I again say I pause. If it has aay his own vicinage-his neighbors-shall, upon growing defect let the proper remedy be aptheir oaths, declare that the circumstances plied, but cut it not down, spare it, I pray. showing guilt are such that he ought so Lo an- Mr. President, far back in a remote age there swer, has stood as one of the great land-marks originated two legal systems, the one or the in modern free governments. It has become other of which, or the two combined, even at embodied as a principle n te Constitution of this day hold the empire of the whole civilized 317.world. One of these systems is known as the carrying his sentence into execution. This civil law. It had its origin among the Romans, was surely rude and clumsy enough, but it and was perfected at a period of the highest civ- shows how early the people constituted a part ilization. It descends to us as the offspring of of the court. In England, among their dephilosophy and science. This system is adopt- scendants, the jury brought in the aid of the ed in its principles and mode of procedure in people in their unofficial capacity, both for accertain courts of our own country; it is the basis cusation and for trial. When it was proposed of the judicial policy of all continental Europe, to subvert this system and introduce the civil and is recognized and appealed to even in some law, which acknowledged no such agency, the Mahomedan countries. This system, eminent- reply of the sturdy English barons was, we canly wise and just, as it is acknowledged to be in not consent that the common law shall be clanged. all that relates to matters of contract and the So now, when the same thing is proposed, I mere private relations of men, makes no provision hope a like answer will be given by this Confor the security of political rights. It has no vention. For one, I want the people-the unjnries, it has no habeas corpus, it has no repre- official people-to remain as a part of our courts.sentation of the people in government. Hence of justice. I will never consent that permanent it does not, of its own force, carry with it in its police officers or magistrates shall take the place progress human freedom. It is not the hand- of the people themselves, in the maintenance maid of liberty. of public order. If I am upon trial, I want my There is, sir, another system. It had its rude neighbors to try me, and no less, sir, do I want beginnings in the woods of Germany, among a them to say whether I shall even be put upon brave and barbarous race. In its very incep- trial. The GrandJuryIwishto standbetween tion it recognized the agency of the people in me and the malice of my enemies. the whole business of government, both in the But, sir, there is another view. In this counmaking of the laws and the administering of try, the people are for themselves the consenathem. This system, in its great outlines, be- tors of quiet and order. In our system, if it is came part and parcel of the Anglo-Saxon mind. to continue, it must ever be so. A police NeithertheviolentPlantagenets, northehaughtv magistracy to hunt up, or rather to hunt down and imperious Tudors, nor the tyrant Stuarts, offenders, and to bring them to trial is, I say it, could displace or uproot it. Though there are in with all deference, not an American idea. this system some harsh features, it has, in a What is the Grand JuryT It is a portion of wonderful degree, secured the liberties of men; the people from the body of the county, repreand wherever the common law is found there senting the solid worth of the community, inare found men who claim freedom as the birth- terested in upholding the laws and preserving right. Why is it so? The answer is the very the peace of society, detailed for the time, to first principle in this system is, the people by overlook the county, and inquire as to the intheir representatives make their own laws and fraction of the laws. It appears to me, that tax themselves. this is a wise and politic institution, to make Strange as it may seem, this great funda- society the keeper of its own peace. But why mental principle of freedom was settled among not leave this duty to every man who may see the Saxons before they left their native forests; fit to perform it? I answer, according to the they carried it with them into Britain, and there homely proverb, what is every body's business had as their law-making assemblies, their wite- is no body's business. Men, and especially the nagemote, and in later times their parliament. best men, do not choose to step forward as This race of men in all their dispersions claim prosecutors on behalf of the public. Ordinarithe right of making the laws for their own gov- ly, they do not do it. For example, gambling ernment, andyieldit to no earthly power. This is not now an indictable offence in this city. was the very claim, the denial of which, in its When it was so, I am informed, indictments full exercise, produced the American Revolu- were frequent. Now there are no prosecutions, tion. This same principle has recently been though, it is said, the vice has greatly increased. recognized and re-affirmed in our Congress as a No one chooses to incur the odium, and pergreat common law principle, in conceding to haps the danger, of becoming the prosecutor. the people of California the right to make their But it is objected that an indictment found own laws and regulate their own institutions, against an innocent person, inflicts a lasting without the intervention of even the General and irreparable injury. What is an indictment! Government. It is, I suppose, an accusation drawn up in a But by the common law the people are equal- formal manner, and prepared by a Grand Jury.'ly a part of the law-administering power. This But under any system, there must be some protoo, was a principle settled in the very germ of cess before trial. Before an examination by a the system. Long before the migration of the magistrate, there must be arrest. In all this Saxons to Britain, Tacitus, in describing their proceeding, there is some disgrace. Any charge manners in Germany, tells us that one hundred public or private, inflicts some injury. If it.men accompanied the judge in his circuit, to aid is said of a man, he was indicted for this or that Uhim in his deliberations, as well as to assist in offence, the answer, in case the indictment is 318 not sustained, is, he was found innocent upon up. Not only are they tribunals of great value trial. Just in the same way,if it is said of a man in themselves, but they are beyond estimate in that he was arrested and carried before a magis- throwing back upon the people the responsitrate, it may be answered, if such is the fact, bility of mantaining law and order, and in this very well, he was discharged. There is hu- latter view, the Grand Jury is the more impormiliation, perhaps some disgrace in either case. tant institution of the two. But it is incident to any system. Mr. ROBINSON said, Mr. PRESIDENT:-AlAgain, it is urged that the examination be- though I am not in general very sympathetic, fore a Grand Jury is ex parte. Let us look at yet have this natural peculiarity, that I can this objection. The Grand Jury decides noth- never attempt to address a deliberative body ing further than that there are sufficient grounds without a feeling of embarrassment, and I should to put the accused upon his trial. If the per- not now obtrude myself upon the attention of son as to whom the inquiry is instituted, is pre- the Convention did I not feel that on a question sent with his counsel, and the State with its of some importance, one that has existed so witnesses, why, you have already a trial, when long, that the memory of man can hardly trace the only question is whether there is need of its origin; an institution which has been brought one, and the party ought not to be tried a se- down to us by our forefathers, and adopted by cond time. I have thought all along, that gen- us as one of the guarantees of our rights, was tlemen have confounded the question of putting likely to be successfully assailed. I have, also, upon trial with trial itself. a further inducement to appear at this time. But the secrecy of the Grand Jury investiga- On a former occasion, I offered a resolution for tion is another ground of objection. Here the adoption of a section into the new Constiagain, I repeat, the Grand Jury is not a court of tution, which, as I believe, embodies everything trial. The right of the accused to a speedy and necessary to give permanency and stability to public trial I will never give up. It is a great this institution, and quiet the public mind in recommon law right, founded upon humanity, a gard to it, and I thought I had made a tolerable right I may remark, but little understood in good speech upon it. But now, after the readcountries where the common law does not pre- ing of the learned and classic lecture of the vail. gentleman from Monroe, (Mr. Read,) I find that But that every preliminary investigatiou my ideas are very much obscured. [A laugh]. should be public is quite another and a different But I find, also, that many of the positions of thing. Mere police inquiries, if public, would, the gentleman, humble as are my pretensions, in many cases, be useless. The publicity, would do not come up to my expectations of the man, often defeat the very end for which they were nor my views of the question. instituted. The petit jury has its deliberations Mr. President, I never write what I say. I in secret, and your supreme judges do not call never take notes when I feel called upon to adin the public, when they are settling their de- vocate or oppose any measure. But, I propose cisions. Secrecy, then in itself, is not an evil, now, for a few moments, (if I can gain the ateven in judicial matters. The Grand Jury sit- tention ot the body, for nothing can be more ting as a mere court of inquiry, a police magis- embarrassing to me than to address an inattentracy of the people, look over society and de- tive audience,)to attempt an examination of this termine what, and how far? Why, thatthere question. ought to be a public investigation as to certain I am satisfied, that when we look at the prinoffences. Many public accusations they sup- ciple involved in the resolution and instructions press altogether. Many frivolous and redicu- of the gentleman from Hancock, (Mr. Walpole,) lous things they arrest in their inception, and in connection with what he read from the Fedsave society from the excitement, the turmoil, eral Constitution, that we cannot abolish the and disturbance of a publicinvestigation. They Grand Jury system, without contravening that thus throw the mantle over many human er- instrument. I have yet heard no argument in rors and frailties, not, in their opinion, amount- this body which has, for a moment, convinced ing to crime, and which no public good requires my mind, that the powers of the Federal Conto be exposed to the popular gaze. stitution did not intend to guard our rights for Mr. President, net long since, I read a capi- all time, by throwing the Grand Jury between tal article, taken, I believe, from a London law the government and the citizen. journal, in favor of abolishing petit juries. It My remarks upon this occasion shall not be proved, as I thought, that a clever man may directed to the origin of Grand Juries. The make a right good argument in favor of any purpose for which they were first constituted thing. But seriously, I fear, when the Grand has been ably argued on both sides. I shall Jury is destroyed as a relic of antiquity, no direct my remarks to the Grand Jury system, longer to be tolerated, that the petit jury too as connected with the criminal jurisprudence of may be assailed upon the same ground. As a our own country. I shall offer nothing with member of this Convention, neither the one nor respect to their antiquity, nothing upon the the other, constituting as they do, the popular question whence we have derived the system, branches in our courts, will I consent to give nor whether it has been used as a support of 319 the demands of the crown, or in defence of testify whether they are merely meddlesome and the rights of the subject or citizen. And if upon officious persons, or whether they are reliable, this examination of its connection with theju- and can be fully depended upon. diciary of our country, we should find it works There is another advantageous feature copwell, that it is the best method by which we nected with these investigations bv a Grand can ferret out and punish crime; if we find the Jury, which I believe to be the most importaut system to be best calculated both for the pro- thing connected with our criminal jurisprudence. tection of the rights of the State and the citi- It is due to the individual-I care not what may zen, then I shall be in favor of its continuance. be the charge against him-it is his right, beIt is a principle conceded by every well dis- fore he is arraigned, that the charge should be posed citizen, that it is necessary for every well presented against him in a technical and legal organized government to be able to detect and form. It is his right that he should have notice, punish crime. This is the safeguard of the that he should know what the charge is, and people. It is the safeguard of the weak against that he should have time to prepare for his dethe strong-the protection of the innocent fence, and be able to tie down his prosecutor to. against those who are regardless of their rights. the charges set forth. The Grand Jury find There must be some means by which to point that such and such facts have transpired within out crime. This is the principle that shall their jurisdiction, and they present these facts govern my vote, when we shall come to the to the paosecuting attorney, who draws up the question whether Grand Juries, as they are now indictment in legal form. The accused, in this constituted, are not better calculated to sub- way, has ample time to prepare to meet them. serve the ends of justice than any substitute for It may be six months before the next court, and them which has been yet proposed. when he does come to meet these charges, he An objection to Grand Juries has been raised will find the facts exactly as presented by the with some degree of force upon this floor, upon Grand Jury, thereby enabling him to make a the ground of the secresy of their proceedings. clear defence, if he is not guilty. Upon this subject I am prepared to say, with a But there is another reason that has brought gentleman who preceded me this morning, that my mind to the conclusion that I will vote the manner of Grand Jury proceedings in their against abolishing the Grand Jury system. I retirement for these investigations, is one of have heard learned arguments upon this questhe chief beauties of the system. What is there tion, from old and experienced heads; and I in this feature of the system which any honor- have listened to them with great attention, for able man can complain of. The only secrecy the purpose of acting understandingly upon the which attaches to Grand Jury proceedings is first vote which we are to give upon the resothis: when they come in from all parts of the lution before the Convention. But I have county from which they have been selected- found that, at least in one point, amongst all when they have been subjected to challenge, the advocates for abolishing the Grand Jury and received the charge of the court-and the system, there has been a grand failure. I take moment comes for them to proceed to deliberate it as a well settled principle in argumentation, upon the rights of the citizens and of the State, that when men of experience and great intelthey retire from all confusion and everything lectual acquirements assail any institution, and which could be brought to bear upon them, in when they have arrayed and set forth all the the way of misleading their judgment. The defects and deformities of that system-if they fact that they consider of these things in re- are unable to find a substitute for it-if they tirement as a body, cannot for a moment con- cannot find anything to present in its stead, stitute an objection that would weigh any thing which will answer a better purpose, it is a very with me. I believe it constitutes the best guar- sure indication that the old institution should antee of the rights of the citizen. be retained. And so it has.been with the adBut there is another reason why I think that vocates for abolishing the Grand Jury system. Grand Juries are better calculated to ferret out Therefore,I think that the Convention cannot discrime than any system which can be substitut- charge their duties to their constituents without ed in their stead. When the Grand Juries come retaining this institution, which has stood so together to discharge their high and important creditably for ages. It has been hinted at, to duties to the State and to the citizen, they come be sure, that, instead of Grand Juries we should from every part of the county, and bring with institute public examinations before some one them the knowledge of crime committed in their or all of the courts; but most of the advocates respective neighborhoods; so that in all the in- of change have seemed to prefer public examvestigations coming before that body, it is at inations before a justice of the peace. once known something of the nature of every Sir, when a Grand Jury comes to the invesviolation of the criminal law which has taken tigation of a charge against a citizen, and find, place in the county. They are thus enabled to in their retirement, that they cannot be satissend for the proper witnesses, and bring every hed with respect to the law in the case, they matter fully before them; and they will, also, have a right to come into court and demand at be able to know, when those witnesses come to the hand of the judge an exposition of the prin 320 ciple about which they may be in doubt, and the whether this hardship could be ameliorated by court is bound to give the exposition and in- the change proposed. Suppose, immediately struct them correctly and fully in regard to the after the adjournment of the court an individulaw governing the case. But if we should in- al to be arraigned for some offense against the stitute public examinations before a justice of law, before one of those dignified Justices of the the peace-I care not whether the court be Peace: suppose that Justice to set down upon composed of but one justice, or whether it be the investigation of a criminal case, surrounded composed of many, congregated in the capacity by all the prejudices against his office, on the one of a county court-if the case be put by a pros- hand, and by a mob infuriated against the prisoecuting attorney of any skill, in nine cases out ner. on the other-himself without any knowlof ten, whatever may happen to be the opinion edge of criminal law, whatever, which might of the attorney, that will be the judgment of such enable him to decide understandingly any quesa tribunal. I am willing to give to our justices tion arising in the case, involving the guilt or of the peace all their due, but I am compelled innocence of the accused, and suppose he tells to say, generally, that, with reference to the the man that he is guilty and must give bonds administration of criminal law, our justices of to appear before the court six months hence, or the peace can have no opinion of their own. be incarcerated in jail: and suppose the individTake an important legal question, arising in a ual goes to jail: and suppose, at last, when his case of murder, to be decided by the court-if case is presented before a jury,'properly informthat case is not decided by the prosecuting at- ed of the law, that no evidence of guilt should torney, who must, in some sense, be regarded be found against him-would not that be a hardas an interested party, it then comes to be de- ship greater than any which could be charged cided by a tribunal who does not understand as the result of the Grand Jury system? the question. Cannot gentlemen see any dan- Mr. President, the real complaint against ger in this t Is it of no importance that, in a Grand Juries is, not that when a man is indictcase where the State of Indiana and the citizen ed for murder, or any of the higher crimes, his are parties, we should secure a correct adminis- trial does not come to a desirable termination: tration of justice? Is it of no importance that but that their inquiries extended too far into the the law should not have the effect which it is investigation of petty misdemeanor-that they designed to have t I should think that, when carried up cases enough to constitute threesuch important interests are to be decided upon, fourths of the criminal docket, and this, also, is they ought to be decided by an impartial and another cause why so many persons indicted a competent tribunal. upon the finding of Grand Juries, pass without But it has been objected, that one half the conviction. But, sir, I will venture to say this, indictments by the Grand Juries, are acquitted that, if the people of Indiana stood near herebefore a Jury of the country, and I am glad if it were possible for us to hear them speak as that it is so, if they were acquitted because the one man, upon the question, whether they would charges could not be sustained. It was, how- entirely abolish the Grand Jury system, and ever, correctly remarked the other day, by the throw the business coming before them, into the gentleman from Laporte,(Mr. Taylor), I think hands of Justices of the Peace, it would be that in nine cases out of ten, if every charge found that a large majority were against it. could be probed to the bottom, if the Prosecu- Under this impression, Mr. President, I have ting Attorneys were capable of ferreting out offered my proposition; which is, to take from every crime-a large majority of these cases of the Grand Juries their jurisdiction over petty acquittal would be found guilty. The fact is, misdemeanors; and you thereby throw these we have need so to change the law as to com- cases before the Justices of the Peace, which, mand the services of efficient Prosecuting At- perhaps they have sense enough to manage. torney's. Formerly a majority of our Prosecu- Reform your Grand Jury in this way-throw ting Attorney's were capable and efficient offi- every case of a petty offence before a tribunal cers. But we became so exceedingly Demo- where the examination can be open, and the tricratic a few years ago, and I amongst the rest, al had without delay, and you will hear nothing as to make such a change with respect to the more of the clamor against the Grand Jury syscompensation of Prosecuting Attorneys, that tem. any man who takes the office now, must neces- Another reason why we should retain this sarily stand at the lower end of the bar. Hence system has addressed itself to my mind with it is, that so many persons indicted by a Grand some force. It is, because I see it assailed by Jury, are acquitted upon their trial before the certain classes of the community. This fact court. -This, then is not so much the fault of furnishes a strong argument that the system is the Grand Jury as of the Prosecuting Attorneys. a good one. Suppose you were to go into a But it has been said that it is a disgrace for common doggery-such as there might be found an individual to be indicted by the Grand in this and other towns of the State-suppose Jury. Even if he should be acquitted upon his you were to go to the individual having the estrial, it operates as a slander upon his character. tablishment under his control, and living upon Let us look a little into this objection, and see the miseries of community by vending ardent 321 spirits, and ask him whether he was in favor of framed since the organization of the federal.Grand Juries. He would answer you in a mo- government; and this is a consideration why I ment-" Down with them! I do not like their should be unwilling to consent that we should secrecy; and I am opposed to them altogether." become pioneers in a reform which would put But get at the unconcealed meaning of his down this system, which has stood for ages, and heart, and it will be found that he is opposed to with which all other law-abiding citizens have -Grand Juries because he fears the hand of jus- been satisfied, down to the present day. This, tice; because his occupation hasso fallen under to my mind, is also a strong argument. But the condemnation of public opinion, that, if the there is yet another argument. It is, because -Grand Juries are to be continued, his crimes our fathers have thought proper to place this will be faithfully presented and punished. And system in our bill of rights, and because I find 4if you were to meet another class of men which the same thing fixed in that article of the Coninfest every community, more or less-if you stitution of the United States which prescribes were to meet a midnight gambler, the man that no man shall be put upon trial twice for the whose profession is to lead young men into de- same offense. bauchery and ruin-if you were to meet with Mr. KENT (interposing and Mr. R. giving.such a man after a night of debauchery, and ask way) said, the original framers of the Constituhim the same question, what would be his tion did not assert that principle. The gentleanswer? Why, he would respond in a moment- man will find that it was supplied amongst the "'Down with the monster! Abolish all Grand amendments to the Constitution years afterJuries; they have secret sessions; they are in- wards. quisitorial; I want them abolished." And it Mr. ROBINSON (resuming). Itwas a mere will be found that, in place of Grand Juries, he technical correction, sir; I stand corrected, wants the public examination of criminals be- however. I confess that I never was very techfore some tribunal that has never been over- nical in my notions; but I was right in the burdened with honesty; he desires himself to go main, when I said that this principle came down into court, where he may have some assurance to us from our fathers; and since it happened to of an opportunity to get clear; but. above all be supplied in the Constitution by way of amendthings, he desires to keep clear of the Grand ment, it only further sustains my position that Jury, who have taken the oath to indict no man the principle is a most important one, because through malice, nor let any escape through fear, the amendment was called for. After the origfavor, or affection. Just so it would be, sir, if nal Convention had discharged their duty faithyou were to go into all the walks of crime. If fully, as they thought, years afterwards, it was the man that would go into your stable and take found that they had been remiss in one thing. away your horse, and attempt to convert him to It was found, upon reviewing the whole ground, his own use; or the man that would put the that this principle was necessary to protect the torch to your house in the night; if a man of rights of the citizen, and therefore it was at this class were to be brought up here, and re- length supplied by way of amendment. This quired to answer the question, whether he was was the second sober thought-the second opin favor of Grand Juries, his response would be- eration of the mind of the philosopher. And "No." I tell you, sir, I, for one, have not come for this reason it addresses itself to my mind up here to legislate for such men as these. I with double force. This correction, then, only have not come up here to make a Constitution operates as an additional reason why I should that shall be calculated to screen the guilty cul- feel myself bound to sustain the Grand Jury prit from the condemnation of the law. system. I say, sir, that these cases which I have sup- There is another argument in favor of this posed, furnish, to my mind, a strong argument system, to which, I believe, I have before alfor retaining the Grand Jury system; and the luded. If the honorable gentleman from Tiptruth which they furnish is amply sustained by pecanoe, (Mr. Pettit,) who is learned in the all my experience, which has been considerable, law, and every way well qualified to carry forin defending criminals. This has been a part ward any system of reform; who is not surof my duty for nearly twenty years; and I be- passed in intellect by any member of this body; lieve that I never had such a client in my life, but, after he has examined this question thorwho would not declare himself to be against oughly and delivered here an argument against Grand Juries. The fact is, they are the best Grand Juries; (which I confess to be of the first and the only successful means of ferreting out class of argument for beauty and strength,) afcrime. ter looking over his printed speech, and reading Permit me to say, in conclusion, that I shall it upon my pillow, I have sought in vain for an vote for retaining this system, and also for limit- adequate substitute; I have weighed it in the ing the jurisdiction of Grand Juries to the hear- balance and have found it wanting. However ing of testimony against individuals accused of willing I am to bow with deference to the dethe most heinous and infamous crimes. Sir, cisions of his superior intellect, yet, until he this system is retained in the Constitution of can come here and tell me that he has prepared nearly every State in this Union which has been a substitute which will work better than Grand 21 322 Juries, both in theory and practice, I must be strong old safeguard of the community until compelled to part company-though I cannot gentlemen shall be prepared to submit a better say this with so many tears as my learned friend, system, and demonstrate that it will act equally the gentleman from Monroe, (Mr. Read). I tell upon the rights of all. I care not what origin you, sir, if you heard one part of that learned the proposition may have. I shall never inquire lecture of my learned friend, you would have whether the measure originated with Whig or thought him to have been almost the wife of Democrat. I despise all party names and the gentleman from Tippecanoe, and that a designations here. I have brought none of divorce had just been proposed. [Some merri- them here with me. True, I have been, perment.] I believe it is a custom which prevails haps, a tolerably mild WVhig; and when the in most deliberative bodies, that the gentleman principles of that party have been at stake, I submitting the proposition under discussion has have done battle for them. But when I left the right to close the argument. I suppose, home for the duties of this hall, I put off that therefore, and agreeably to his own announce- harness; I came here as a delegate-not as a ment, I believe, that the gentleman from Tip- partizan. I have cast no partizan vote here. pecanoe will be heard again. I want to say to I came here to help to make a Constitution him, therefore, that I desire him to bring forward worthy of being handed down to posterity; and some practical substitute for the system which when the day comes that this body shall be dishe proposes to abolish. I want him to make it solved, and we shall return to the people, I hope clear, that if his substitute should be made a to find my own harness in order, and, if necespart of the organic law, it will be without ex- sary, to do battle with it as heretofore. ception. But I must be permitted now, with MAr. OWEN. I have but a few remarks to due respect to that gentleman, to say one thing: make, and they do not have special relation to that you may take that gentleman, with all the the expediency or inexpediency of abolishing stores of information he has been able to treas- the Grand Jury system. What the Convention ure up, and place him in the midst of all the is considering, or ought to be considering at this books he may desire, and then allow him to la- time, is, not that question, but the resolution bor until he shall become as blind as an owl at moved by the gentleman from Hancock, (Mir. noon-day, and after all this, it is my confident Walpole,) proposing that the whole subject be belief that he would not be able to produce a referred to a select committee with instructions. better scheme for the administration of our The instructions are, in substance, to inquire incriminal law than the Grand Jury system; and to the right of the Convention to decide this until he does this, I shall be under the necessity question at all; to inquire whether, if it should of casting my vote against his resolution. be our judgment that it is best for us to have no I have now to say to the Convention, that I Grand Juries, we have the power to abolish am satisfied myself, and thoroughly settled in them; or whether we are not estopped from domy judgment upon this question. I claim to be ing so by considerations of honesty and good able to form my own opinions, and to act upon faith. them. So long, therefore, as gentlemen fail to Mr. WEALPOLE interposing, and Mr. 0. givproduce an adequate substitute for this system, ing way, said, I propose to correct the gentleI cannot go with them. I am unwilling to man. The proposition which I presented intilaunch upon an unknown sea. Let us have mates, not what the gentleman rehearsed for some port-let us know where we are to land- the second point in the instructions, but merely in what harbor we are to anchor, before we em- an inquity into the fact, whether the second ar — bark. But I don't believe my objections can be tide of the compact of the 13th of July, 1787, satisfactorily answered. I don't believe that between the State of Virginia and the governfacts can be produced which will furnish the ar- ment of the United States, does not confer upon gument that will sustain the resolution. I do the people of Indiana the benefit of judicial pronot believe that the brain of man can furnish ceedings, according to the course of common them. Gentlemen may propose their opinions, law. The third point of my proposition sugthey may recommend an experiment; butit will gests an inquiry whether this compact was not be all opinion and experiment, and nothing else. confirmed and ratified by the federal ConstituI am not willing to cut loose from the good old tion, and binding upon the people of this State. land marks, until the matter shall be settled Mr. OWEN. In reply to the gentleman, Mr. that I can do so without injury and loss. I am President, I read from the second article of tlhe not wedded to the Grand Jury system any ordinance of 1787, the same to which he has refurther than as it is connected with the admin- frred: istration of justice, in detecting and ferreting "ART. 2. The inhabitants of the said ternout the evidence of crime. I am unwilling to tory shall always be entitled to the benefit of let go this safeguard of the citizen. I must ad- the writ of habeas corpus, and of the trial by here to the old system, although it may be said jury; of a proportionate representation of the that I am behind the times, and have no idea people in the legislature, and ofjudicial proceedhow far we have progressed in this progressive ings according to the course of the common age. I must remain unwilling to let go this lavw, 323 If I have incorrectly understood the position man claims that Virginia has the right to perof the gentleman from Hancock, I hope he will form. This Convenfion has no power to denow correct me. I understand him, in the first cdare that the Grand Jury system, or any other place, to infer that, under the term "judicial provision in any department whatever of our proceedings," here employed, the institution of State government, shall last forever. It can but the Grand Jury is included; and that, as, in what decree its existence or non-existence, while the must be regarded as a compact between Vir- Constitution continues in force. ginia on the one part, and the States to be There is, in our present Constitution, a proformed out of the north-west territory and the vision which occurs to me in this connection. original States of the Union on the other, it is I read it, from the close of the eighth article: declared that the people of that territory shall "But as the holding of any part of the human " always be entitled " to these judicial proceed- creation in slavery or involuntary servitude can ings, it follows, that we of Indiana have no right, only originate in usurpation and tyranny, no alwithout the consent of Virginia, to abolish the teration of this Constitution shall ever take Grand Jury system. Is not that his position? place, so as to introduce slavery or involuntary Mr. WALPOLE. Yes, sir, that is my posi- servitude in this State, other than for the puntion. ishment of crimes, whereof the party shall have Mr. OWEN. A strange doctrine, surely, to been duly convicted." promulgate, at this day! I express, at the pres- As an expression of opinion strongly, solent time, no opinion as to the expediency of emnly set forth by the framers of our State abolishing or of retaining the Grand Jury sys- Constitution, that slavery is a terrible evil, untem. But, suppose that a majority of this Con- just in itself, and iatai in its consequences, and vention decide on its abolition. What is the that it ought never to be suffered to blight the remedy for this infraction, as the gentleman from free soil of Indiana, I receive, and from the botHancock holds it to be, of the compact. A tom of my soul I respect, the clause I have just protest addressed by the Governor of Virginia, quoted. As a Constitutional Provision binding to our Governor l A remonstrance, adopted by through all time, it is not worth the paper it a Virginia legislature, that the Constitutional is written on! Convention of Indiana has transcended its pow- I sefdom refuse to vote for such a request as ers? That will not do, certainly! I have al- this by the gentleman from Hancock, for a refways believed, as I now believe, that I live in a erence to a committee of inquiry. Yet, very sovereign State, and that no other state or nation surely, I have made up my mind on the subject. on the habitable globe has the right to control, And, as surely, I think, has the Convention or to dictate, in any particular whatever, what done so, in advance of all such reference. I shall be the form of our State government, or cannot but think-and I know the gentleman what the minutest of its details. There are, will believe me when I say, that I make the doubtless, in connection with the compact refer- suggestions in no offensive spirit-I cannot but red to; namely, in the previous act of session think that when the gentleman calmly reviews by Virginia, certain conditions of a temporary his position and the consequences to which it character; as that " the territory so ceded shall inevitably conducts, he will not press his motion be laid out and formed into states, containing for a select committee. suitable extent of territory." Again, "that the Mr. WALPOLE. I wish the gentlemen necessary and reasonable expenses incurred by would argue the point involved in this matter, this State (Virginia) in subduing any British now. hosts, or maintaining forts, shall be reimbursed Mr. OWEN. I have said all that I deem by the United States." That certain lands necessary upon the subject. should be granted to General George Rogers Mr. KENT saidClarke, and so on. These conditions have been Mr. PRESIDENT; It will be recollected by the faithfully fulfilled, as it was right and proper Convention, that the committee on the rights they should be. But because of that, are we to and privileges of the inhabitants of the State, infer that Virginia is also to exercise over the ju- have reported a section virtually abolishing the dicial system we may see fit to adopt and to Grand Jury system. When we reach that secmodify, a supervisory control? And is this con- tion by the regular order of business, the whole trol to endure not for the present only-not question will again come up for discussion. through the generation that now lives alone, but Now, if we desire to avoid duplicating this disthroughout the lives of our children and our chil- cussion, would it not be advisable to postpone dren's children, even to all succeeding genera- the further consideration of the subject, until tions 3 Nothing is farther from our hearts; we reach it by the order of business adopted by nothing more repugnant to our feelings; nothing the Convention. Believing this course will more flagrantly in violation of every right we save time, I move to lay the resolution and hold dear. And nothing, I will add, more im- pending amendments on the table. possible to be carried out. This Convention it- The motion was agreed to, and the resolution self, with all the power delegated to it by the and accompanying amendments were laid on people of Indiana, cannot do what the gentle- the table. 324 Mr. HALL. I ask that the order of business Mr. CHANDLER. I desire to move a rebe suspended, in order to give me an opportuni- consideration of the vote taken on Thursday ty to introduce a resolution. I will read the last upon the section relative to the tenure of resolution for information and that the Conven- office of the State Auditor and State Treasurer. tion may see my object in asking a suspension I wish to get a reconsideration of the vote of the rules. whereby the word " two" was stricken out and Resolved, That on and after Wednesday of the word " four" was substituted, making the this week this Convention will resume the hold- term of office four years instead of two, as reing of afternoon sessions. ported by the committee. I think, sir, that the time has now arrived Mr. BORDEN was understood to remark when we should resume our afternoon sessions; that by unanimous consent the vote upon rethe committees have, perhaps, had ample time consideration might be taken now. to prepare their reports, and we can now spend Mr. CHANDLER then gave notice that on more time in regular session without prejudicing to-morrow he should move a reconsideration of the public interest. the vote above mentioned. The order of business was suspended. Mr. MAGUIRE moved to re-conmnit the arMr. HALL introduced his resolution, and re- ticle, with instructions to the committee to remarked that he would be glad to have the day port a section fixing the terms of Auditor, Treasfixed so as to suit the Convention, if the day he urer, and Secretary of State, at two years, and had named was not acceptable. rendering them ineligible more than six years Mr. PETTIT proposed that afternoon ses- in any period of eight years. sions should be resumed on Mondav next, one Mr. WOLFE moved to lay the motion to reweek from tnis day. commit, upon the table until the vote upon reMr. HALL remarked that, under the rules consideration was taken, he supposed his resolution, being an imperative Which motion was agreed to. one, would lie over one day. The Convention then took up the report of Mr. WOLFE. I do not see the necessity of Mr. OWEN from the committee on the rights that. and privileges of the inhabitants of this State. The PRESIDENT. If the gentleman will The first section was read, and is as follows: turn to the rules adopted by the Convention, he There shall not be imprisonment oIr debt exhe will find that any resolution proposing to cept in case of strong presumption of fraud. change the rules or the order of business, must Mr. ROBINSON offered the following amendlie over one day. ment: Mr. WOLFE. I think every member is sat-) Strike out after the words " except in case isfied with the resolution, and desires its adop- of" the words "strong presumption of," and tion. It is high time that the Convention re- insert after the word " fraud," the words " to sumed afternoon sessions. The reports are be proven by the party alleging the same." nearly all prepared, and we shall get along Mr. ROBINSON. I do not intend to make just twice as fast after the adoption of this res- a speech at this time, but I desire to state my olution. I would move a suspension of the objections to the section as itnow stands. Unrules that it may be adopted now. der its provisions a citizen of Indiana may be The motion was not agreed to. imprisoned for debt. It is consistent with our The Convention proceeded to the order of views of government that imprisonment for the day, being the consideration of article num- debt should be regarded as of barbarous origin. ber one. But the language of this section is too general Mr. BORDEN. Would it be in order to pro- in its character. The word "presumption" is a pose a new section to this articlel very general and comprehensive one; it is not The PRESIDENT. It would. precise and definite in its meaning. It is a Mr. BORDEN. In order that the time word that will be differently understood and of the Convention may not be consumed defined by different men. What would furnish unnecessarily, I would inquire of the gen- ia case for the presumption of fraud with one tleman from Clarke, if the committee of man would not satisfy another man. You leave which he is a member has had under considera- the citizen liable to be imprisoned upon the tion the subject of the election of a State bare "presumption" of fraud, and that word to Printer and a Warden of the State Penitentia- be construed, perhaps, by an incompetent triry? If the committee have the subject already bunal. It seems to me that the most pernicious under consideration, I will not take up time by and unlooked for results would follow the enoffering the section I have drawn up. grafting of this section, in its present form, in A MEMBER. The committee are prepar- the new Constitution. But if we adopt my ing toreport upon that subject. amendment, it renders the matter certain; it Mr. BORDEN then declined offering his leaves no room for mistakes as to whelther the amendment. presumption of fraud is strong enough to warTke article was then ordered to be engrossed rant imprisonment. The party that seeks to for a third reading. have another incarcerated, will be compelled to 325 show a sufficient cause to warrant imprisonment. from debt. We attach to the idea of imprisonFraud will be that sufficient cause. ment. that it is a penalty inflicted for the punIt is an old doctrine, that wherever a debtor ichment of crime. We punish the fraud, and has attempted to defraud his creditor a summa- whether proven by the party defrauded, or othry procedure should be given to the creditor. ers, is eually deserving of punishment As I But the crime-for it amounts to that-of fraud understand the amendment of thegentleman should be clearly proven. A man that asks that from Decatur, it would only limit the pr of the fraud to the creditor. his fellow citizen should be committed to pris- the fraud to te credtor on, should first prove a fraud. The term which Mr. BIDDLE. Is the motion of the gentleI have used is, therefore, more certain and spe- man from Decatur divisible? cific. Fraud can be proven, and there is not that latitude and opportunity given to do wrong, The PRESIDENT was understood to say and through malice of the accusing party or ig- that it was not. norance of the tribunal, injure the citizen. I Mr. BIDDLE. I know it is not divisible, think it is going far enough to imprison for debt where the motion is to strike out and insert, when there is clear evidence of fraud. I be- but this motion is to strike out and add other lieve that it is a settled principle in legal juris- words at the end of the section. I would vote, prudence that when fraud is alleged the burthen with the gentleman from Decatur, to strike out of proof rests upon the prosecuting party. My the words he proposes to, but I should not vote amendment is right, because it prevents uncer- for his addition. And my reason is this: The tainty, and no citizen can be imprisoned until a principle is well settled that the person alleging clear case of fraud is made out. an affirmative must prove it, and therefore his Mr. DOBSON. I would propose the follow- addition is surplusage. The bare fact that the ing substitute for the amendment offered by the creditor charged fraud would place him in a gentleman from Decatur (Mr. Robinson). position where he must prove it, without any Strike out all after the word debt, so that E constitutional affirmation of his obligation to the section would read simply " There shall be i co so. no imprisonment for debt." I concur with the gentleman from Decatur Just one word, Mr. President, in regard to- (Mr. Robinson) in his dislike of the use of the The PtTRESIDENT. T Unless the gentleman word "presumption" in this connection. We The PRESIDENT. Unless the gentleman all know that men would differ very widely as from Decatur accepts the substitute for his o that ou fferve idel amendment, the proposition of the gentleman to what should constitute a sufficient evidence amendment, the proposition of the entleman for a "strong presumption" of fraud. I should fr Owe tai( ed.c t be e - require the person alleging to prove the fraud. By the common law he must do that. Mr. DOBSON. Can it not be entertained as an amendment? Mr. HOWE offered the following amenda-, anamendmen ment' The PRESIDENT. It cannot, because it ent destroys that which it proposes to amend. It Strike out the words "strong presumption of," cannot be entertained until after the amend- so that the section would read, "There shall ment proposed by the gentleman from Decatur not be imprisonment for debt except in case of has been disposed of. fraud.' Mr. DOBSON. I hope that the gentleman i Mr. ROBINSON. Having offered the from Decatur will accept my substitute. amendment now before the Convention, and Mr. ROBINSON. I cannot accept it; I believing it to be right, I desire to say a few am opposed to it because it fails to secure a words in explanation. principle which I wish to see incorporated in It i, known to everv legal zentlem-n that the new Constitution. my objection to the use of the word "presumpMr. DOBSON. Then I hope the Conven- tion," in this connection, s a good one. It is tion will vote down the amendment of the gen- too uncertain, and capable of different constructleman from Decatur, and then my proposition tions by different minds. It will be conceded will be in order. that the word'-fraud" is very closely assimilatMr. ROBINSON. I really hope the Con- ed to the term "crime;' every legal gentleman vention will not vote down my amendment. knows this. In manay instances fraud itself Mr. CLARK. I hope the gentleman's becomes criminal. Now, sir, criminal proceedamendment will not prevail, and then, that the in, the courts now adminster the law, amendment suggested by the gentleman from compel te crime charged to be proven strictly. Owen (Mr. Dobson) will be adopted. The There is but little difference between a crime clause, then, will simply prohibit imprisonment chared directly and the charge of a criminal for debt. There ought to be no imprisonment act. A crime may be presumed from strong for debt. The imprisonment should be for circumstantial evidence, but my objection to fraud. I think fraud may be separated in idea the word presumption is, that this question (in 326 volved by the Constitutional provision that there Mr. President, it is for such reasons that I shall be no imprisonment for debt except in say I hope the amendment of the gentleman case of strong presumption of fraud) will very from Decatur will be voted down; then mine often, indeed in most cases, have to be submit- will be in order, and I believe it will so comted to the inferior tribunals of the country. mend itself to the judgment of the Convention Now, I am frank to say, that if I was assured that it will be adopted. that this question was always to be submitted Mr. PETTIT. I rise, sir, to keep the floor within the jurisdiction of the gentleman from but for a moment, and to say that the position Cass, (Mr. Biddle,) I should have no fear of a of the gentleman from Owen meets with my correct decision, because his court is a forum hearty approbation. capable of deciding all such questions accurate- I say to the gentleman from Decatur, (Mr. ly. But, then, it will very often be the case, Robinson,) that if we cannot succeed in voting that an important matter will be submitted to down his amendment, and then adopting the the inferior, though honest, tribunals of the proposition of the gentleman from Owen, (Mr State. My object, then, in moving to strike Dobson,) I should then rather vote for his out the word "presumption," is, that it will amendment than the section as it now stands. necessarily come before those tribunals unac- I want to put under and abolish at once and customed to the strict construction of language forever, all imprisonment for debt. which is supposed by the framers of this section. Of course those who take a different view- ho In my own estimation, although "the books" O notrsethoed the adaes h.i see- do not recognize fiaud as a crime of the grossest do not apprehend the dangers which I see- j dye, yet the courts go a gteat ways to blacken will vote against my proposition. I am inciin- id t a m s har ctr tha has committed ed tothn tatte wod;;rad~ s o a1and b~last a man's character that has committed ed to think that the word "fraud" is not a rthe section. As I before i- a gross fraud. A poor man, who is charged by necessary part of the section. As I before in-.... U v necessary part of thesecen his creditor with a fraud for th'e sa-ke of oetting timated, if the gentleman from Cass was to, a him in prison, mav never regain his position in preside in all the courts where this question r nin d t 1 r.~,,,1~~..,~ i society. I shall, tnerefore, in order to make will come up, he would require the charge of I fraud to he strictly proven without my amend-. the section short, vote to leave it thus: " There fraud to be strictly proven without my amend-. ment being there; but when the question is re- shall be no imprionment or debt." oder lferred to other and less conmpetent tribunals I fI to do this, we have first to vote down the original lerred to other and less competent tribunals, Iamendment of the oentleman from Decatur But wish so to guard it that they will not commit a te ente n m ut I say to the friends of that amendment, if it has man for firaud until it is proven. My object is a i. any, that I will help them to amend the section to guard the citizen against encroachments upon it as it now is. But inasrather than leave it as it now is. But inashis rights, either through design or ignorance. much as the proposition of the genleman from much as the proposition of the gentleman from Mr. DOBSON. I know, Mr. President, that Owen is, in miy judgment stil! better, I will my proposition is out of order, but I wish to, make a plain and distinct statement of that. It is making it a plain, a.. > 1. 1 ~~unambirguous and unequivocal matter, so that ter of imprisonment for debt. I am wholly and. j *1 1,, 1 * *... T there can be no mistake as to its meaning. I decidedly opposed to imprisonment for debt. I t c b will not argue the point any further than to think that those who have known me through will not argue the point any further than to say, thatwhen we give the Legislature power life, will bear me out in saying that all my say, that when we give the Legislature power actions warrant me in declaring that such is to pass laws to punish the commission of fraud my character. I wish to do things openly, and in a proper manner, we have given them lati- tude sufficient. But so far as imprisonment for to meet eething in sme opn and a1t 1o *r ls T * *... did manner. As the boy said, i I want to take debt is concerned, I want it distinctly provided m against in the Constitution. There is not a the hull by lhe horns and push him of the aga. ~~inst~~. T.bridoe, or have him push me of." [Laughter.] man to be found in Indiana who will openlyri, or have i e i o e. nlt il advocate imprisonment for debt. That clauseIf must take medicine give it o n in al its P caus, X. strength and naked bitterness don't cost it should have been stricken out long since.strength and naed erness; don't cot it over with molasses. [Renewed lauguter.] I When you punish a man, let it be for a proven want no covert action in anvthino. fraud, never because he cannot pay his debts: make these things separate; do not confuse Inasmuch as this section leaves it ope as to and mix up imprisonment for debt with impris- how much evidence shall create a " st:on preonment for fraud. When you arrest a man uu- sumption of fraud," I amn opposed to it; I want der the provisions of that section, as amended the section to read,; there shall be no imprisby the gentleman from Decatur, (Mr. Robin- onment for debt." Therefore, I shall vote son,) which do you send him to jail for, the against the pending amendment, in order thati fraud or his poverty'! Recognize fraud as one the gentleman from Owen may present his thing and debt as another. Just say in so many proposition, which I wish to see adopted. words, "There shall be no imprisonment for Mr. OWEN. Mr. President, I have considdebt." I will go with the gentleman to impris- ered the matter since, as one of the members on for fraud; but never grant the power to a of the committee who reported this section, I creditor to put his debtor in prison on a charge presented it, and I agree with the gentleman of fraud, but really because he is poor. from Owen. 327 Debt, is a misfortune-f-raud is crime. I but you arrest him for fraud. I ask, what good think that the distinction between misfortune will it do C. D. that A. B. is imprisoned or and crime should be plainly and unmistakably even convicted of fraud? Of what advantage made. If we strike out the words proposed, or even help is it in the main object, the securwe can provide in another place for the punish- ing of C. D.'s lawful claim? The man may be ment of fraud. I would prefer to take merely arrested and convicted of fraud, the State may the first clause of the section-" there shall not be satisfied, the vindictive portion of the laws be imprisonmentfor debt." I hope the amend- may be appeased, but where is the collection ment of the gentleman from Decatur will be \ of the debt? What has become of the main voted down. If not, I would suggest to him point? The creditor is neither gratified nor that he will attain his object by striking out the benefitted by the imprisonment and suffering of, part he proposes to, without insisting upon the as may be the case, his rich debtor. He deaddition he proposes. mands and desires to enforce the collection of Mr. EDMONSTON. For the purpose of his debt, not the punishment of the debtor, fargetting a direct vote upon the question, I ask ther than assists in that collection. I am not for a division of the question; the first question one of those who believe that a man should be being then upon the motion to strike out. allowed to go abroad and cheat whom he Mr. PETTIT. No; that would leave the pleases and where he pleases with impunity. words, " except in case of fraud," in the sec- I desire to provide that he may be summarily tion. Better move to lay the original amend- dealt with in extreme cases. Strike out of the ment on the table. section the word, " presumption," then, and the Mr. ROBINSON. Will the gentleman from practice under the provision would be, that no Dubois withdraw his amendment for one mo- man could be imprisoned for debt in Indiana menti without it was proven that he had commited a Mr. EDMONSTON. Certainly, if it will fraud. Now, if you arrest a man for debt, the oblige the gentleman from Decatur. Legislature, in the absence of an express conThe motion was withdrawn. stitutional provision to the contrary, will always Mr. ROBINSON. I wish to furnish some stringent enactment by which a The PRESIDENT. Will the Convention man can be arrested for debt, and, if fraud is give the gentleman from Decatur leave to speak proven, imprisoned. It is often important to inagain-he having spoken twice upon this sub- quire, in connection with the recovery of debt, ject? into the question of fraud. If fraud is proven, SEVERAL VOICES. Yes, if he will be the debtor should go to jail until he reveals the brief. secretion of property or suffers for the violation Mr. ROBINSON. I will endeavor to be very of law. If fraud is proven, but the possession brief. of property at the time of arrest is not clearly As a legislator, I am always willing to con- proven, then he should be imprisoned until he cede a good deal for the sake of gaining the shows his inability to pay the debt. Then, in main object; and if it was only necessary for order to secure the rights of the creditor and me to support my amendment for the sake of the prosperity of society, strong measures are securing my personal position, and if the sub- necessary, and these the Legislature will alstitute proposed accomplished my object, I ways enact in the absence of a constitutional should not insist upon my amendment for an prohibition. What do I propose? Nothing instant. But, sir, my main object is not to more than this, and I think that this Convenabolish all imprisonment for debt; it is not to tion is not in favor of cutting loose all hands in secure a constitutional provision that the cred- regard to this matter, and allow men to cheat itor shall never, under any circumstances, im- and impose on the community without let or prison his debtor. There are circumstances hindrance. You indict me, as a debtor having connected with the collection of debts when property which I will not disclose, for fraud, but the debtor should be imprisoned-I mean when what becomes of the debt while you prosecute there is evidence of fraud. If the Convention against me a criminal action? The debtor has votes down my amendment, as the gentleman made the speculation, he has got the money, from Owen proposes and asks to be done, and but you cannot connect a criminal with a civil you abolish imprisonment for debt under any action (under the operation of this constitucircumstances, and, as the gentleman from Tip- tional prohibition) together. The jury will not pecanoe (Mr. Pettit) proposes, punish fraud as convict for fraud and render judgment for the a separate and distinct matter, what will be the amount of the debt. resultS Let me ask that gentleman: suppose One moment's reflection will show to every he arrests a man, A. B., that justly owes C. D., member that I have proposed the only tangible he is arrested not for fraud in not paying his remedy. You arrest a man for debt and allege debts, although you mny have sufficient evidence fraud; the State punishes the fraud, and you, if that he has property and money, because there the debtor has property, secure your debt. But is a constitutional provision forbidding any im- with the section as it is, is a simple allegation prisonment for debt under any circumstances, of fraud, to be tried by every inferior tribuna 328 in the country. It should be proven by the the addition of more words would be a mere surparty alleging. I am not willing to take from plusage. the creditor the right to collect his debts by ex- Mr. BARBOUR. If I understand the gentreme process, by the aid of imprisonment, if he tlemen from Tippecanoe and Owen, they are clearly proves a fraud. I will not give a fraud- not willing that there should be imprisonment ulent debtor an opportunity to escape with im- for debt under any circumstances. punity, by merely requiring that there shall be r. PETTIT. That is most certainly my strong presumption of fraud to imprison him, desire. leaving it to the judgment of inferior and inexperienced tribunals to judge of what constitutes Mr. DOBSON. The gentleman has correcta "strong presumption'" ly stated my position, as opposed to all imprisMr. President, in conclusion I must say that onment for debt. 1 shall insist upon my amendment, forthe reas- Mr. BARBOUR. Mr. PRESIDENT: I am not ons I have given. If I am fairly voted down, a little surprised to hear so many members opI shall submit without a feeling that I have been pose imprisonment for debt, in all cases whatin the least uncourteously treated. But, I can- soever. I can assure gentlemen that those sennot, consistent with my view of duty, and my timents are not the sentiments prevalent among belief in its policy, withdraw my motion. I now the people. Can it be possible, sir, that it is submit it to the sound sense of the Convention, proposed that the person who has in his possesif I am wrong, as I before said, I shall not con- sion your money, and, because you cannotreach strue it as a mark of disrespect if I am voted it by a common execution, that you shall not down. have the aid of the strong arm of the law to Mr. HOWE. I wish very briefly to make reach it, and recover your just debt. Before a statement of the present position of this mat- you can imprison the body of the debtor, you ter, and the effect of the vote that is about to must establish before a jury, that he has money be given. or means with which he could discharge your If the Convention votes to strike out all after debt, and that he keeps the same concealed, with intent to defraud vou. Fraud is now punthe word " debt," an effect may be produced not with tent to defraud you. Fraud is now punclearly foreseen by members. The question d ished as a crime, yet this is no remedy for the clearly foeseb emes.Teus creditor against a fraudulent debtor. And, if whether we will, by a Constitutional provision, youhoul attemt the proeuton of te fraud take away all remedy against fraudulent debt- should attempt the prosetiminn of the rauds ors, as we shall bv voting down the amendment ulent debtor criminally, he might possibly slip orsaswehalbvoin downtheame through the fingers of your justice of the peace. of the gentleman from Decatur, and then agree- thou h te fige of hebthe peace. ing to the motion, or rather adopting the sub- mig en e caracer o stitute of the gentleman from Owen The man convicted of fraud in a court of justice, yet stitute of the gentleman from Owen. The the moral sense of the community would not be original amendment (Mr. Robinson's) proposesthe moral sense of the community would not be that there shall be no imprisonment for det, very highly shocked at the injury or justice done that there shall be no imprisonment for debt, such an individual. If a debtor is really guilty except in cases of debt coupled with fraud;suc a ndvdua If a debtor s e therefore, if that amendment be voted w down of fraud in concealing his means and refusing to and the substitute (Mr. Dobson's) adopted, the pay his honest debts, what wrong or injury is effect will be to abolish all remedy against done in compelling him to disclose and deliver ffrent wletoaoisagainst a c up his concealed wealth. It is no satisfaction fraudulent debtors in any case. to the creditor to prosecute his debtor criminally. Mr. PETTIT. Punish the man separately He wants his money, and it is right he should for fraud. have it, and the law should aid him when the Mr. HOWE. The gentleman says, "punish debtor has the means, but fraudulently conceals them separately for fraud;"' but how punish the same. them. Will you reach him with a capias, or in Mr. HENDRICKS saida civil case? I cannot go so far, nor will this Mr. PRESIDENT: The reason of the law auConvention, when it comes clearly to under- thorizing the imprisonment of the debtor, in any stand the matter. I repeat it, so that there may case, seems to be misconceived. In no case be no misunderstanding when the vote is taken is a man, under our laws, imprisoned be-the effect of the adoption of that substitute cause he is poor-because he is in debt. will be to abolish, in civil cases, all remedy Nor is it the object of the law, to gratify any against fraudulent debtors. I think that my bad feelings of a hard creditor, by allowing amendment expresses the view that the Con- him to arrest and throw into prison an unforvention will finally take of the matter, and that tunate debtor, who may be unable to discharge it gives us as good language as we can have in the debt; to give" the creditor the control of this case, for, in this Constitution, as in the the person of his debtor, to detain in prison, in drawing up of statutes, the object is to use the satisfaction of the debt. fewest words consistent with a clear expression Such seems once to have been the object of of meaning. If the words, " no imprisonment the law in England, as we gather from the lanfor debt except for fraud," give us all that we guage of the writ of execution against the perwant, if they fully express our meaning, then son; when all process was in the Latin lan 329 guage, and which has now become the name of Mr. HAMILTON. It is true; I had intended that writ; "capias ad satisfaciendum." to present it first, but it escaped my notice. I Nor, sir, is it the object of the law, in allow- will present it now. ing process against the person, in a civil cause, The report wart read. to punish the debtor for any fraud he may have Mr. WATTS. Iwish to disclaim allconneccommitted. tion with the report made by the minority of For neither of the purposes which I have this committee, and also with the majority rementioned, should there ever be imprisonment port. I could indorse neither. in a civil suit. in a civil suit. i Mr. RARIDEN. I move that thereports be The true object of the law in giving process RARIDE laid on the table and printed. I should like to against the person, is to compel the fraudulent lal the tales nded in to ask debtor to make satisfaction to his creditor, have the rules suspended, in order to ask a referdebtor to make satisfaction to his creditor, ofh when he has the ability to do so, to force him ence of the reports to a committee of the wholer Snd^ 1. 1 e^' auand have them made the special order. to surrender any means which he may fraudulently conceal, or withold from the payment of Mr. COLFAX rose and said, that lie wished his debt. If the proposition of the gentleman to state from Decatur (Mr. Robinson) shall be voted The PRESIDENT. The Chair would redown, Ihave an amendment to the section mark to the gentleman from St. Joseph and which I will present. For the information of others, that debate at this stage of proceedings is the Convention, I will read it. "There shall out of order. be no imprisonment for debt after the debtor Mr. COLFAX. I hope I shall be indulged shall have delivered up his estate for the bene- in making a single remark. For some time it fit of his creditor or creditors, in such manner, was extremely doubtful whether any proposition and to such extent, as shall be prescribed by at all could be agreed upon by a majority of this law." committee, and whether all the reports would not This, sir, will attain the object, and the only be minority reports. legitimate object of imprisonment in a civil The PRESIDENT then put the question, cause. whether the Convention would receive as many As it is now the hour of adjournment, I move minority reports as might be made from the that the Convention do now adjourn. committee on Banking and currency. Which motion was agreed to, and the Con- The Convention decided to receive all that vention adjourned until nine o'clock to-morrow should be offered; whereupon several minority morning. reports were presented from the same committee. The Convention then proceeded to the orders of the day, and, on motion by Mr. BASCOM, TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 5, 1850. took up article number one. TUESDAY, NOVEMBErR 5, 1850. ~Mr. CHANDLER. Pursuant to previous noThe Convention met pursuant to adjourn- tice, I now move a reconsideration of the vote ment. previously taken upon the first section of this Prayer by the delegate from Lake (Mr. article. I will read theiarticle and state the ef(CRUMBACKER). fect of the vote taken: The journal of Monday was read and ap- "SEC. -. A Secretary of State shall be proved. chosen by the qualified electors, and be cornmisBANKS. sioned by the Governor for two years, or until Mr. HAMILTON presented a report from a new Secretary be elected and qualified: Prothe committee on currency and banking. vided, That no person shall be eligible to the The report having been read, office of Secretary of State more than four years Mr. HAMILTON remarked, that it might be in any term of six years. He shall keep a fair proper for him to state to the Convention, that, register, and attest all the official acts and when the article which had just been read was proceedings of the Governor, and shall, when first presented to the committee, he did not en- required, lay the same, and all papers, minutes, tirely approve of it, nor did a majority of the andvouchersrelativethereto, before eitherHouse committee. It is, however, said Mr. C., sub- of the General Assembly: and shall perform mitted in the belief that it will more nearly such other duties as may be enjoined upon him meet with the approbation of the Convention by law." than any other proposition which could be agreed The vote taken on Thursday last was to strike upon by a majority of the committee. At the out the word " two," where it occurs in the first proper time, I shall move to make some amend- sentence of the section, and insert " four." [ ments, and among them, one for the taxation of move a reconsideration of that vote. Bank stock. The question being put, Mr. PEPPER of Ohio. Mr. President, I wish The motion was agreed to, and the Convento inquire, through you, whether there is not an- tion reconsidered the vote. other section that was agreed upon by a majority The question then being upon the motion to of this committee strike out the word "t two" and insert the word 330 "four," where it occurs in the first sentence of and talents may be in other respects, and if he the article, the same was disagreed to. has had no experience in the duties of that ofMr. THOMPSON gave notice that he should fice, he will feel like a stranger, and stand move a reconsideration of the vote by which greatly in need of the aid which may be afforded the word "six" was stricken out of the same by some one conversant with its complicated article, where it occurs, and the word "eight" duties. A man of the most ready mind and inserted. penetrating intellect will continue to learn The PRESIDENT. The pending motion is something in the Auditor's office for many years, to re-commit the article to the committee on and I think the people should be left free to State officers, other than the executive and ju- continue the same individual as long as my diciary, with instructions, amendment proposes, if he be found honest, Mr. FOSTER. I understand that the vote capable, and obliging. It will be observed that on the motion of the delegate from Brown (Mr. my proposition by no means requires an indiChandler) to reconsider, placed the article in vidual to be kept in either of the offices for six the same position in which it came from the years. It proposes only to leave with the peocommittee. pie the unrestricted right to re-elect him for The PRESIDENT. But one amendment three terms of two years each if they are satis was reconsidered by that vote. fled the public interest will be promoted by such Mr. MAGUIRE. I desire, Mr. President, to re-election. I have voted uniformly for short explain my motion tore-commit. The only re- terms, and will continue to do so, believspect in which my motion differs from the article ing, as I do, that power should be frequently as originally reported from the committee is in returned to the people as its legitimate source. providing that the State officers named in the I offered the proposition, as I before remarked, article may be eligible to an election for three with the hope that it might harmonize the terms of two years each, instead of two terms. views of a majority of the Convention. It is It instructs the committee to adopt the two similar to the original report of the committee, years term principle in respect to the Secretary, except that it is a little less restrictive upon the Auditor, and Treasurer of State. It this propo- power of the people. It avoids both extremes sition should meet the views of a majority of as to the tenure of office, I may be allowed to the Convention, it can be most readily ac- say that I advocated a plan like this before the complished by a re-committal. I offer the prop- people in the canvass preceding the election of osition in a spirit of compromise, inasmuch as delegates, and I believe the people whom I in there appears to be a great diversity of opinion part represent concur very nearly with me on on the subject, and not much prospect of agree- this subject. ing to a plan without some compromise. Some Mr. NILES. Mr. President, if I understand gentlemen are of opinion that these officers the gentleman's proposition, it would be more should be elected for one term of four years and objectionable to me than the proviso originally be ineligible; some are in favor of fixing the reported by the committee. If I fixed a limit at term at four years, with the right to be re- all upon the right of the people to elect whomelected as often as the people choose to vote soever they please to these offices, I am not prefor them; others are in favor of terms of two pared to say but that I would adopt the one years, to be ineligible after four years; and still term principle. I am inclined to believe that, another class are in favor of the two years whatever minor inconveniences might result, terms and to be re-eligible without any limita- that is the true doctrine in reference to officers tion. I think, sir, that my proposition offers a who control the public revenues, and I only medium ground upon which a majority might think that they will be more likeiy to be replace themselves. Limitthe term to two years, elected by being limiced to two or three terms. and leave the power with the people to continue But I hold that it is entirely safe and according the incumbent three terms, if, in their judgment, to the theory and principies of our government it be proper to do so. This is nearly in accord- to leave that matter wholly with the electing ance with my own views, and I have thought it power-the people. My friend from Posey, as possible that the Convention might adopt it as I hope I may be permitted to call him, (Mr. a compromise. Owen,) stated that the question now before the Mr. President, while I am on the floor per- Convention is, whether it is proper to continue mit me to say that I know from experience that e Auditor and Treasurer together in office, the office of Auditor of State is one, the more than four years. With great deference duties of which are laboricus, responsible, and to that gentleman, I insist that that is, as the important, and the qualifications for which do lawyers say, a false issue. The question, not seem to be fully appreciated. I assure gen- after all, resolves itself into this, and only this, tiemen that they are mistaken when they sup- is it safe to trust the people to judge and act pose that any citizen can go into that office and for themselves in this matter? By unanimous perform its duties intelligently without any pre- consent we give the election of all officers to vious training or experience. You may place them. The question now is, can we safely any man there, I care not how great his ability trust them? I contend that we can and should, 331 and I believe they will ultimately, in reference may be decided every year. Inthe first instance to such offices, adopt the doctrine of one term the decision is made in the formation of the orand short settlements. ganic law; in the second, in the statute law. The gentleman from Hancock (Mr. Walpole) If the gentleman from Laporte (Mr. Niles) is says that a limitation like that reported by the so thoroughly convinced, as he informs us he is, committee, is necessary to secure the freedom that the public officers ought not to remain toof the elective franchise, on account of the in- gether in office for a longer term than four years, fluence which these officers can wield by means why scruple to say so in the Constitution? If of their patronage. I admit that they have some the people fully concur with him in opinion on power to misuse their trust. So has the Presi- this point, why should they not declare it in the dent of the United States. He is invested with Constitution? If he is sure, and they are sure, a power of patronage far greater, in my judg- the thing's right, why not settle it once for ment, than can be wisely committed to any one all, and have done with it? If a provision be of man; his right arm reaches out into every coun- doubtful expediency, let it be embodied in law, ty and neighborhood in the Union. But, sir, which may be changed from year to year. But let him be found exerting that influence for per- if we are perfectly satisfied of its expediency, sonal aggrandizement, and securing a second let us give the people an opportunity to adopt election by means of that patronage, and the it when they meet next year at the polls, to rat-one term rule in relation to the Presidency shall ify or reject this new Constitution. become as fixed as the laws of the Medes and Mr. STEELE. Mr. PRESIDENT: Iunderstand Persians. the question now before the Convention, to be But gentlemen say these elections will be upon the motion of the gentleman back of me controlled by caucuses, and unfit men will be im- (Mr. Maguire,) to re-commit this article to the posed upon the people. Let it be so; and let committee with certain instructions i the people, if need be, loose something by their The PRESIDENT. That is the pending quesconfidence; the lesson will be worth more than tion. it will cost. Let the caucus, if it see fit, impose Mr. STEELE. Ishall go againstthe reference. a swindler upon the people for a second or third The section as originally reported meets my apterm, and the power of the caucus will begin to probation and is better than the amendments fail, and by and by the people will scatter to the proposed. I wish to say, that it appears to me winds that most odious of all oligarchies. I re- that the delegate from Laporte (Mr. Niles,) is peat again, that wisdom purchased by such ex- cearly right in the position he has assnmed in perience, would be worth all its cost. refference to the eligibility of public officers and I insist then, sir, that if we engraft this prin- the right of the people to elect a man as long cipie upon the organic law of the State we send as they see fit. I heartily agree with him that out from under our hands a doctrine, an idea, it is safe to trust the people at all times anti precisely like that which led many of the con- under all circumstances and that we should not. temporaries of Washington to desire to invest in this new Constitution restrict them in the him with the purple-the doctrine that free freest choice of their public servants, that the government cannot be sustained, or, in other people should not continue a man in office for words, that the people are not fully to be trust- four or eight or twenty years, if they have coned in what is altogether their own business. I fidence in him and desire him in preference to hope we shall not do it. any other man. I know that the distinguished Mr. OWEN. I always receive with much gentleman from Posey (Mr. Owen,) says, that deference and respect any suggestion coming the people are here in this convention; it is true from the gentleman who has just taken his seat; that they are represented here, buti:notwithIstandbut I find myself obliged, upon this occasion, ing that, the work which we do here. must be to dissent from his position. His assertion is, submitted for their approval nextyear at the balthat when I declared the true question in this lot box. case to be, whether the Auditor and Treasurer For one I am decidedly against restrictin', tire of State ought to remain together in office long- people in this matter. I know that gentleman er than four years, I made a false issue; the true may consider me stubborn on this subject; I anm question being whether it will be safe to trust determined. You know it is in the nature of anE the people to decide for a longer term of four old ox to be always stubborn. I believe that the years if they see fit? people have the right to select their own offI cannot but think here is the same confu- cers and keep them in their service as long as sion of ideas to which I have already, within a they choose and I will maintain it here and elseday or two, had occasion to reply. where. I will maintain it now and forever. I There are two modes in which the people do not believe that in forming a new Con!stitucan decide a question; but in both, the people tion, we should insert those provisions that will themselves decide, and none other. By one beget frequent electioneerings and scrambles for mode the question is to be decided for a quarter office. If elections are to be every two ysears and of a century, a third of a century, and perhaps the officers not eligible for a second term, we shal' far a half century. By the other, the question have an hundred times the strife and electioneer 332 ing that we otherwise should. And there is called. I understand that the great duty which another consideration to be urged against such we have to perform, and I believe such is the a provision. We all desire that our work done general understanding of gentlemen, is to eshere shall be approved and ratified by the peo- tablish an organic law for the State. It is no pie, we want this Constitution to be adopted. part of our business or mission here to place But I can tell delegates that if they will adopt restrictions upon the rights of the people of this a provision restricting and muzzling the will of State. We desire to devise a plan of governthe peoplein the choice of their officers, there ment, and it becomes a necessary part of the are thousands of the citizens of Indiana who will political machinery that we should divide it invote against your new Constituton and I do not to different departments, and to each of these know but that among them will be your hum- departments we assign appropriate duties. ble servant. I think with the gentleman who Those duties, sir, are not to be performed to the preceeded me (Mr. Maguire,) that we had prejudice or the restriction of the sovereign better compromise the matter. I think the peo- people, but for the good of the whole. To the pie would be benefited by our adopting such a legislative department we assign one duty, to compromise. But sir, I shall vote against the the judiciary another, and to the executive anreference of this article at this time and I shall other. To each of these departments we delevote against the article itself on the final pas- gate certain powers and privileges, which are sage if it contains the amendments which have to be exercised within certain limits prescribed been offered, and I shall journal my vote upon by the law. We throw around them restricthe call for the yeas and nays that my position tions in order to guard the people from any unmay be known to the people whom I repre- just abuse of the privileges conferred upon them. sent. These restrictions are a necessary part of the Mr. BIDDLE. It iswell known how Ishall political machinery; and when we have prevote on this question. I do not rise to make a scribed some mode by which our government is speech, but with the indulgence of the Conven- to be conducted, we have done all that the peotion I will tell an anecdote. (Several members, ple have asked at our hands. We may create "go on" "go on.") My friend from Laporte, (Mr. additional departments, and we may confer upNiles) since this discussion began, (cries of on those departments whatever power we may "louder" "louder.") I was saying that since this deem necessary or proper for the good of the discussion began my friend from Laporte, whom people. We may declare what shall be the I value very highly, and to differ with whom al- qualifications of the members of the Legislaways gives me pain and perplexity-pain on ac- ture, and in organizing that department may fix count of our personal relations, and perplexity the tenure of office. In organizing the judiciary with his logic, which he weaves as close as sail ( we may declare what number of judges and of — cloth-made me a social visit at my room.- ficers the courts shall be composed of, and the After some time spent in general conversation peculiar duties to be performed by them. We he rose to depart saying: "Well, my dear sir, appoint to the executive certain duties to become and see me; and I will just tell you, I have performed by him, and there we stop. There a basket of the most delicious apples you ever we should stop. The great political machine is saw; I fear I shall do wrong by eating too many then completed. Every step we go beyond unless you come and watch me." I replied "I that point is a wrong one. We have assemshall surely come; but my dear friend will you bled here to form a new Constitution, because allow me to point your remarks with a moral'" the people conceived that the old Constitution? "Certainly, certainly," said he, smiling. "If a threw around them certain restraints that ought person of your philosophy cannot withstand the not to exist. One of the greatest of those re — temptation of a good apple, how do you expect straints was the prohibition against the disposothers of much less virtue than yourself to fore- ing of the fines and forfeitures in any other go the alurements of a fat office t (Laughter.) manner than that specially named in the old And remember, it was nothing but an apple that Constitution, viz: For the benefit of county tempted Eve. She fell and brought death and seminaries. This was a restriction upon their wo on all mankind!" (much good humor.) power, and it met with almost universal conMr. WOLFE. I am satisfied that the Con- demnnation, and I venture the prediction that if vention is prepared to vote upon this question, that subject had not been discussed upon the if a vote can be obtained. I will, therefore, move stump by two distinguished political leaders, to lay this subject upon the table until we can candidates for governor, at almost every c-ros then get to a decision. road in each of the counties of the State, and Mr. KILGORE. I have listened to the ar- if the necessity had not been urged upon the gunments advanced on this question hitherto people of throwing off these restraints impesvery patiently, but have not been disposed, un- ed upon them, this Convention would not'ave til the present time, to participate in the dis-) been called at all. They were, also, restricted cussion. It does seem to me, however, that from electing their own officers. That duty the gentlemen with whom I differ have mis- was assigned to anotherhead, one of the de-carttaken the object for which this Convention was ments of which I have been speaking. The 333 people looked upon it as a restraint upon their tution of the United States because the doctrine liberty, and called for a redress of their wrongs. of rotation in office seemed not to have been They asked that delegates might be elected to recognized so far as related to the office of revise the present Constitution, so as to give President of the United States. Mr. Jefferson them the power and control over the Seminary lived in another age, and he could not, with all fund, and also the power to elect their own of- his political sagacity, foresee the great improveficers. These two restrictions were the topics ments that would be made upon the theory he mainly discussed throughout the State, and laid down at that time. He could not possibly were the principle cause that induced the peo- foresee the great improvement in the doctrines ple to vote for the calling of this Convention. he so strenuously and ably advocated; that of We are here then for the purpose of removing rotation in office and universal democracy. In these restrictions, and shall we, instead of try- relation to the election of President, he thought ing to remove them, add additional restraints. that the Constitution was couched in such terms True the subject of the tenure of office was not that he might, if the people so willed it. be kept agitated before the people, but when we at- in office during his lifetime; yet we find the peotempt to limit that tenure, and decide as to who ple have settled that matter differently. They they shall elect, and who they shall not, we are have settled in their own minds upon two terms throwing a new restriction around their power as the extent of eligibility to that office; and and privileges. It is one too that is unnecessary shall we fear to trust the people of this State to the well-being of society. These officers to elect a Secretary or Treasurer! Shall we are mere functionaries, a necessary part of the say to them, we will permit you to elect officers political machinery. The people are the most for one or two terms, and no oftener? Let the competent to determine as to the tenure of doctrine of rotation in office be our doctrine, office, and shall we limit their power on this but for heaven's sake let the people establish point. It is a restriction thrown around the the doctrine. They are in favor of rotation in people to say to them in regard tothese officers, office, and let them carry out the principle of thus far shalt thou go and no farther, in this their own free will, but do not force it upon particular. them and prevent them from exercising a power Gentlemen have remarked that the tenure of which they should be free to exercise. office has been fixed in other State Constitutions One gentleman remarked that the people and some gentlemen have referred to the prece- would be liable to be led astray and cajoled indent the people have established in relation to to the support of an incumbent on account of the election of the President. They declare his great power and official influence. Another that public opinion has sustained the two term gentleman also said that the caucus organizapolicy; and that this principle applies not only tion is to be dreaded in the selection of these -to the President, but to all the minor officers of officers from the people. Well, sir, the action the nation. The President is an officer who of caucusses is the same, and the action of one can exert the most unbounded influence. The is just as much to be dreaded as the action of Secretary of State, Auditor, and Treasurer have another. It is perfectly immaterial whether not one iota of patronage, and it is perfectly these officers shall be elected for one or two clear that the President holds an immense pat- terms, and if the question is left open as to ronage, and is capable of wielding a powerful whether the holding of an office for one or two influence. Yet with all that power and influ- terms renders an aspirant for office eligible or ence the people have willed by common consent ineligible, the caucus can settle the matter. If that he shall not be eligible more than two the term of holding an office terminate at the terms to that office. If the people have thus end of four years, and it is found that the inregulated the exercise of their judgment in rela- cumbent is not eligible for re-election, the caution to so important an officer, possessing so cus can select the one to succeed him. If the much power and influence, may we not safely matter of re-eligibility to office is left open, as confide in the people, and trust them to regulate I trust it will be, the caucus can settle the this matter according to their judgment? This question satisfactorily. The members of the principle is intended for the good of the people, caucus which convenes at this capital for the and not for the good of the office-holder; and in purpose of selecting suitable officers for the the faithful discharge of the duties imposed on people will have some friends who necessarily *the office-holder the people who elect him are must have some part of the loaves and fishes. deeply interested. It is perfectly immaterial They will determine the office-holder's tenure who the officer is, so long as he does his duty. of office; no difference whether it meets the Every inducement is held out to an officer to wishes of an incumbent or an aspirant; they will perform the duties entrusted to his charge faith- settle the matter in their own way, according fully-and if satisfactory to the people, they to their political economy; and when the cau-.should have the power to re-elect him at any cus lay their hands on him he becomes a victime. tim. It was said by gentlemen the other day that I desire, Mr. President,then, to be understood the immortal Jefferson objected to the Consti- as far as this question is concerned, that when 334 any effort is made to take it out of the hands of our present National Constitution, because the the people, I shall be found in opposition to the principle of rotation in office had not been eneffort. Why, sir, is there not as much propriety grafted in it, that he had contended fifty years. in saying that a member of the Legislature, one ago, that this was a democratic doctrine, and of the people's representatives shall be eligible should be embraced in the Constitution of the two years out of four or six, as to say that the United States. The gentleman from Delaware Secretary, the Treasurer, or the Auditor, shall further remarked, that Mr. Jefferson's views on be eligible for a certain time and no longer. this question was not applicable to the present Why is there not just as much propriety in the age. Sir, who does not know that Mr. Jefferson application of the principle to the one as the was a century ahead of the people in his ideas, otherT The members of the Legislature are and that we have not got now where Jefferson the mere servants of the people, and have cer- was then. tain duties to perform, and so in relation to the There was another remark of the gentleman, State officers; and, if the State officers may not in relation to the question of rotation in office, be re-eligible to election, why should it not be he stating that the people, by common consent, the case with the members of the Legislature! had fixed the tenure of that office of President, Let us, sir, carry out the doctrine of rotation and that it should be used as a precedent; and in office in its fullest extent. Letit not be vio- inasmuch as this has been done by the people, lated in a single instance; for, if it is right in he considers they will do the same thing when one case, it is right in another. I look upon it it is proper to be done in regard to minor offias radically wrong to take this power from the cers. He argues, in short, that the people have hands of the people. Sir, there is great dan- restricted the office of President of the United ger that WE, as the representatives of the peo- States. Now, I must be allowed to say, sir. ple, may abuse the power which, for the time with all deference to the gentleman, that the being, they have placed in our hands. We may people have had nothing to do with it. How incorporate this restrictive principle into the was it with the illustrious Washington t Not new Constitution, and it may be odious to the a long time previous to his election as Presipeople. But sending it down for their sanction dent, the people wished to clothe him with the connected, as it doubtless will be, with other purple-the mark of kingly power; and when wholesome and popular provisions to be voted that patriotic man desired to retire from his ofupon and adopted, or rejected, as a whole, the fice to the bosom of his family, what was the may, and perhaps will, for the sake of those voice of the people? Why, an unanimous other provisions, vote for its adoption notwith- spontaneous demand upon him to remain in the standing the objectionable feature. But that is office-and, if he had lived fifty years, the same no good reason why we should seek to impose course would have been pursued by the people. upon them a restriction which will ever call Such is the case now. Let men hold a responforth their disapprobation. sible electioneering office, and the people will Mr. SMITH of Ripley. It appears to me, cry out, hold on, although it may be that these sir, that this is a very extraordinary discussion very men, while apparently very faithful in the and I confess I am getting somewhat tired of discharge of their duty, are imposing upon the the manner in which it is being carried on. A public, and their iniquitous conduct cannot be portion of the Convention are in favor of limit- found out while they continue to hold office. ing the tenure of office, and rendering those Gentlemen argue that, if this course is right, holding office, after the expiration of their terms why not apply it to all officers of the Stateineligible, with the view of preventing office- executive or otherwise. Well, sir, I am for maholders from exerting any great power or influ- I king the principle apply to all officers of every ence over the country, from their continued es- grade,the judiciary not excepted. By all means, tablishment in office. This principle as far as sir, make the judiciary ineligible to office after I can judge, appears to strike every gentleman they have served a certain period-this will as a correct one, although there are certain of make them independent, and they will have no the members who express their approbation of' selfish motives to induce them to electioneer it in a very contradictory manner. What is while sitting upon the judges' bench. the argument! Gentlemen get up here and in- This is my view of the matter. The people sist that this will prove a restriction upon the demand short tenures of office, and require insovereign rights of the people-though at the eligibility after those terms have expired, essame time they acknowledge the principle itself pecially in that portion of the State from which is correct, and the people themselves will re- I hail. They demand, most emphatically the quire it. This is the position occupied by gen- election of all officers, short tenures of office, tlemen. and ineligibility. The true republican doctrine, I did not rise, sir, for the purpose of arguing very simple in its nature, I contend, was shadthis question,butsimply to make afewremarksin owed forth by the illustrious Jefferson, half a reply to my friend from Delaware (Mr. Kilgore). century ago; in his views he was a century That gentleman in alluding to Mr. Jefferson's ahead of that period. Illinois and several other views, stated that Mr. J. had found fault with States, if I am correctly informed, have taken 335 the true position upon these questions, and I come a part of the Constitution. [Several hope the people of the State of Indiana, assem- voices —"consent! consent!"] With such a bled here in Convention, will adopt the same wholesome provision in the amended Constitu-. policy. For, I contend, sir, that the people of tion no apprehension whatever need be enterIndiana are themselves here, and we are sitting tained that the people will long endure a bad. here to form a Constitution for the State of In- or even an anti-republican form of government, diana, that is reft of Constitution and law. If as some gentlemen have so eloquently contendI may be permitted the expression, here are ed ours will be, unless the ineligibility clause a set of men cast away, as it were, upon an in the sections now before the Convention is island, in the midst of an ocean, surrounded only stricken out. by their natural rights. We are here for two It was but a few days since that the Conpurposes alone; and what are they 3 The first vention decided by a vote of 124 to 5, that the purpose is as clear as possible-to ascertain the sovereign will should not be heard annually, rights of individuals. We are then to point but biennially through the Legislative departthem out, so that the legislature nmay not inter- ment o government. Nearly one hundred sefere with them. We should ascertain the rights tions have already been reported to this Conof the people, and, after that, place limitations venzion, from standing committees, many of upon them, so far as to indicate how public au- which will, no doubt, be inserted in the new thority shall be exercised, and the manner in Constitution. Amonz these sections we have which the duties of the public functionaries of one, declaring that the sovereign will shall not the government shall be executed. elect to exceed one hundred representatives and Mr. KENT. Mr. PRESIDENT:-Without in- thirty-four Senators. tending, or even desiring to discuss, at length, A s d the question now before the Convention, I will imprisonment for debt except in case of briefly respond to the remark which has been t presumption of fraud. We have, also,. strong presumption of fraud. We have, also, frequently made by gentlemen during the de-, bate, tt it is absurd an anti-repblican to among these sections, another class of provisbate, that it is absurd and anti-republican to i o restrain the sovereign will, and particularly in ons, of a declaratory character. In these, if the selection of candidates for office. -adopted, we say to the sovereign power, that the selection of candidates'for office. there shall be elected a Governor, a Lieutenant I imagine sir, that there is no discrepancy of Governor, and a certain number of State and opinion in this body, as to the soundness of the osition t this Contio e reses the. county officers. In fact, it is hardly possible to position that this Convention represents the Constitution, but what political sovereignty of Indiana, at least in the i t o o va will limit and control in some form or other the revision of the Constitution, and that when we well understood to sovereign power, and this is well understood to shall have accomplished our work, and the new nothin mre than the sovereign will, conConstitution is submitted to the people for their ing e the o iono writn -. s. t etrolling itself by the adoption of a written approval, or rejection, their decision will carry Conltitutin. with it the highest political authority of the ons on State. If then this instrument provides that One word, Mr. President, as to the expedienno person shall be eligible a second or third of proiding that no person shall e eligible term for the same office, and the sovereign will to the office of Secretary, Treasurer, or Audishall adopt it, how. I ask, is this elementary tor of State, more than four years in any term power of the government restricted! Certainly of six, or even eight years. not by the adoption of the Constitution; for in While I have no complaints to make of court that very act the electors, fiom whom we de- house influences, or the action of political rive the authority to occupy seats in this Con- cliques, I hope that the proviso will be retained, vention, declare it shall be the supreme law of and that the same wholesome principle will the State, not only for the purpose of limiting be carried out with regard to county offices. and controlling the different departments of the An able French author, in a work on DeState government, but even the sovereign will mocracy in America, attributes the instability of the governed. of parties in this country to the almost infinite But those gentlemen who oppose the proviso desire for office. We all know that in every in each of the sections under discussion, forget district, and almost every county, there is a that this sovereignty, of which so much has class who make politics a trade, and I think no been said, will ever retain the inherent right to one will question the allegation, that this class amend or revise the Constitution. And I hope are not the nost capable or deserving of ofan article will be inserted in the new Constitu- lice. tion, providing that whenever a majority of all All admit the importance of having faithful the members elected to both branches of the and competent officers, and that the policy Legislature, shall adopt an amendmentor amend- which will best secure this object, should be ments, that the same shall be submitted to the adopted. I am quit sure, however, that we electors at the next general election thereafter, shall not be able by any change in the Constiand if a majority shall ratify and approve such tution, entirely to remedy the evil complained amendment or amendments, the same shall be- of by gentlemen. 336 But, Mr. President, I am convinced that the fourth line of the section, and inserting in lieu;proviso will have a tendency to increase the thereof, the word "eight," was re-considered..difficulties of office-holders, in the formation of And the question being taken on the said combinations to secure their continuance in amendment, it was rejected. office, and, sir, if this were the only good we The question again recurring upon ordering could reasonably anticipate, by the adoption of the article to be engrossed, the article reported by the committee, it should Mr. LOCKHART proposed to amend the secreceive my cordial support. But may we not ond section by inserting, after the word "Audiindulge the hope that other benefits will result tor," the words "of State." from this ineligibility provision? Will it not Which was amendment was agreed to. create a more general and laudable desire among The question again recurring on the engrossthe people to qualify themselves for official dis- ment of the article, tinction in the affairs of government, while Mr. HOVEY saidit will greatly lessen the power and influence Mr. PRESIDENT: I would not at this late stage of the mere politician, that class of aspirants of the debate trouble the Convention with any to office whose love of country and fidelity to views of mine, were it not from the fact, that I party is measured by the spoils of office. [Seve- feel constrained to differ with those heretofore ral voices-"Consent to that doctrine!"] expressed by my honorable colleague (Mr. OwMr. LOCKHART. It seems to me that it en). Nor, do I expect to change the mind of must be evident to the Convention, that it is any delegate upon this subject, but desire to exunnecessary to continue this discussion any press my views, for the purpose of justifying -further. The proposition now under considera- the record of my votes, which has, and will be tion, is the same which has been decided before, made to the section under consideration. two or three times, and by a large majority, laid The provisions of all Constitutions, might, I upon the table. I have myself, voted for several think, be classed as declaratory, restrictive, or amendments, which have been proposed, and I mandatory. Declaratory, where some well acam not yet satisfied with the provisions of the knowledged principle or right is asserted, as in section. But I am fully satisfied that its fur- the "bill of rights;" restrictive, where the exerther discussion is unnecessary, therefore, I call cise of some natural right is prohibited, as that for the previous question. the legislature shall not pass certain laws; and Mr. HOLMAN requested the gentleman to mandatory, where the Constitution enjoins upon -withdraw the demand for the previous question. some officer or body the performance of some And the call being withdrawn. particular duty, as for instance, that the LegislaMr. HOLMAN said, the question is upon re- ture shall pass a homestead law. committing the article, with instructions. I I think, then, it may be safely said, that the wish to inquire whether it would be proper now most dangerous part of a Constitution, is its reto amend the instructions. strictive sections, and that we should not adopt The PRESIDENT. Yes, sir. Thegentleman anything of that character, without the most will send up his amendment in writing. deliberative consideration. Every restriction Mr. COOKERLY. I call for a division of is in derogation of the natural rights of man, the question. no difference how inconsiderable it may be. The PRESIDENT. The first question, then, And, I think, it would be laying down a correct will be upon recommitting the article. rule to say, that no shackles should be placed The question being put, the Convention re- upon the exercise of those rights, without exfused to recommit. perience has taught their absolute necessity. The PRESIDENT. The question now re- Under this rule, sir, I would then inquire, curs upon the engrossment of the section. whether practical experience has taught us, that Mr. BORDEN. To give an opportunity for it is necessary to make a Constitutional provire-considering the vote taken upon the first sion to rotate these officersl amendment to this section, (Mr. Carr's,) I move By the Constitution under which this State to lay the section upon the table. has existed ever since its formation, the offices The motion was not agreed to. of Secretary of State, Auditor of State, and Mr. DOBSON. I hope, that, by common Treasurer of State, have not been clogged with consent, the rule requiring one day's notice to the restrictions now proposed. And, I would re-consider, will be disregarded now, for the ob- ask, when, where, and how, have the people of vious reason, that the lang:uage of the section, this State been injured by the old principle of as it stands, does not harmonize-is not consist- re-eligibility? These officers have been re-elient. gible for the last thirty-four years, and yet genThe PRESIDENT. By disregarding the tlemen are unable to point to the time when any rules, a motion to re-consider may be entertain- injury has resulted from the practice under that ed now. principle. By unanimous consent; of the Convention, But gentlemen say, if we permit them to be the vote of yesterday, adopting the amendment, re-eligible now, that they will corrupt the puriproposing to strike out the! word "six" from the ty of our elections-that they will wield the 337 privileges of their offices for selfish purposes, as good arguments can be used for the applicaand by their corrupting influences, secure their tion of the principle to the one class as to the re-election. others. Now, sir, as it is understood that these officers And yet I feel certain that some of those who are to be elected by the people, what do such favor this proviso now, will not be willing to arguments amount to! apply it to senators and representatives, and if Strip them of all sophistry, and they nakedly they do not-I will leave the inference with stand forth in this brief sentence-"the people the people and the Convention. are incapable of self-government." Incapable Mr. SHERROD. I desire to make but a of self-government, because they can and willbe single remark. I have been no less surprised corrupted. Sir, it seems to me, this is assuming than amused at the strange doctrine that has much in favor of our penetration and wisdom. fallen from the lips of honorable gentlemen We "the wise men" of this Convention can see upon this floor, and especially from the gentleall this; we can see all the corrupt twistings of man (Mr. Hovey) who has just taken his seat. these office seeking sharks, but the good people Now, sir, I am decidedly in favor of the proviso, of Indiana are so blind that they cannot perceive just as it is, although the gentleman has dethem-they will suffer themselves to be swindled nounced it as anti-republican and anti-democratand not know it. Sir, I utterly disclaim the con- ic. I must beg leave, with due deference to clusion to which such arguments will lead. I the opinions of that gentleman, to dissent from believe the people to be as incorruptible and as this declaration. I contend, sir, that the princapable of perceiving the tricks which have been ciple of this proviso is not only democratic, but.alluded to, as the members of this Convention, also republican. or any legislative assembly. Yes, even more Mr. HOVEY (interrupting). I said it was incorruptible, as it is more difficult to corrupt a anti-republican; I made no use of the word antilarge body of men than a small number. And, democratic. I think, the inference is irresistible, that if these As to the definition of the words anti-demoofficers elected for the last thirty-four years by cratic, and anti-republican, I cannot see that the Legislature have not wielded the corrupting there is any great difference; the distinction, I influences attributed to them, there will be think at least, is rather fine spun. Sir, you much less danger when elected by the people. can define my position as you please. I conI regard, therefore, the argument of "corrupt- tend that this proviso embraces the same kind ing influences" as preposterous, and do not of republican doctrine preached by a Jefferson, think it can bear the slightest scrutiny. and the same kind that was denounced by his There is another argument that I am fearful opposers; the same kind of doctrine sir, upon the people will think has had much to do, if we which the prosperity, the happiness, and glory adopt the proviso in the section under discus- of our common country depends. "sion. I yield to no man upon this floor in my devoIt was dimly shadowed forth a few days ago, tion, and advocacy of what I believe to be the when the gentleman from Ripley (Mr. Smith) true democracy of the country, that democracy spoke so feelingly in regard to the one-armed, sir, upon which the perpetuity of our institutions and one-legged men, who are and would be as- are based, and which guarantees to all an equal pirantsfor these offices. Sir, I am fearful the right to liberty and security, in his person and people will think there are a good many of those property. And while I say this, I have brought one-armed and one-legged gentlemen here, and my own mind to the conclusion, that the adopthat we are preparing a field in which we may tion of the principle advocated by the opposite reap the spoils. side of the House, would be striking at, if not The gentleman from Floyd, (Mr. Kent,) made the main pillar, one of the great principles upon use of a very ingenious argument, in saying which democratic government rests. that all restrictions were encroachments upon Sir, the history of all governments, from the the naturalrights of the people, but as they,and foundation of the world up to the present time, not this Convention, had the right to adopt or proves conclusively, that in order to secure a reject them, they would be self-imposed re- good government the people have deemed it necstrictions. essary to place certain restrictions and limitaThat is true, but we prepare the restrictions for tions upon their own power. them, and it certainly is not right to force them We have not only the history of our own govto take objectionable sections or reject the ernment in proof of this fact, but turning our whole of our labors; but such I am fearful will eyes for a moment to the Republics of Christenbe the final result. dom, whatever else we may see, we discover Sir, in conclusion, I would say, that if this one thing at least, that the same restrictions and Convention adopt the ineligibility proviso in limitations are found to be necessary there. this section-which I believe to be anti-repub- And here sir, I would ask, why it was that the lican-they ought in all consistency to carry people of Athens did not assemble in mass to the same doctrine out, in the tenure of all other enact their laws, and take into their hands the officers, senators, representatives, &c., for fully government2 And why has the axiom been 22 2335 handed down to us, that if every Athenian was men at the helm of government, but gentlemen a Socrates, then every Athenian assemblage should be careful how they make such sweepwould be a mob? It was because they could not ing remarks. [ have had the honor to vote for a trust themselves to the excitements and tempta- number of our State officers, and I should retions, to which all men were liable; they were gret to find, and be very slow to admit, that I afraid to trust themselves to the popular hurri- had ever voted to place such a man in office. canes that sweep over all countries. Sir, the Sir, I did not rise to make a speech, but merevery foundation of all governments rests upon ly to reply to some remarks of gentlemen which the restriction upon popular rights, and the peo- I could not concur in. pie have wisely determined to take the authori- Mr. NEWMAN, who was imperfectly heard, ty from the masses and confer it upon certain was understood to say that he thought it useagents. less to occupy so much space with this article. If such was not the fact this Convention had In view of the several votes taken upon the subbetter bring its deliberations to a close-it had ject, said Mr. N., I feel satisfied that it is the better adjourn and go home-[cries of consent mind of a majority of the Convention to preconsent,]-and the sooner the better. Why, scribe that these three officers shall serve for sir, what is our business here, if it is not to act i three years, and until their successors are electas the agents of the people' I contend that | ed and qualified, and that they should have this Convention has been assembled here to served four years; therefore I have prepared place certain land marks in the Constitution, an amendment, by way of substitute, proposing by which the ship of State may sail safely and to condense both articles into one. I move to majestically through the rocks and quicksands strike out all after the word " article," and inand vortexes of popular excitement. But gen- sert the following: tlemen seem to say, that by so doing, we are Strike out all after the word " section" in enacting a sort of gag law for the people. As I the first line of the article, and insert: "There remarked before, we are assembled here to act shall be elected by the qualified voters of this as the agents of the people, and when our la- State, a Secretary, Auditor, and Treasurer of bors are submitted to them in the shape of a State, who shall hold their several offices for Constitution for their adoption or rejection, I two years and until their successors shall be assure you they will examine it closely; they elected and qualified-they shall severally perwill ascertain whether its provisions are in har- form such duties as shall be enjoined upon them mony with the spirit and genius of our institu- by law, and no person shall be eligible to eitinos; whether we have kept an eye single to ther of said offices more than four years in the purity of the ballot box, the elective fran- any period of six years." chise, the great lever upon which the destinies Mr. HOVEY proposed to amend the amendof all free governments must turn. And I would ment by striking out all after the words " and here remark, that when gentlemen talk so loud- no person shall be eligible." ly about gag law and anti-republican doctrine, Mr. KENT. I move to lay the amendment they should recollect that the Constitution when to the amendment upon the table. We have altered and amended has to be submitted to a voted upon that question two or three times algreater tribunal than this Convention, before it ready. can become the supreme law of the land. It This motion was agreed to, and the question has to be submitted to the sovereign people of recurred upon Mr. NEWMAN'S substtute. the State, and gentlemen may rest assured, if Mr. READ of Clark. I propose to amend they think that we have transcended our limits the amendment by striking out the words "of by placing a gag upon them in the shape of a State" where they occur so often, so as to read Constitution, they will hurl it back upon our "Secretary, Auditor, and Treasurer of State." heads, and say "depart from me ye workers of Mr. NEWMAN. I accept the modification. iniquity." Mr. BORDEN. I rise, merely to suggest to Sir, I am decidedly in favor of this proviso, my friend, the gentleman from Clark, (Mr. but I cannot agree with all of the remarks of Read,) that the committee on revision, arrangesome gentlemen, who are also the advocates of ment, and phraseology would regulate the artithis principle. Gentlemen have talked here, cle in this respect. as though we have had heretofore little better Mr. READ of Clark. I would remark in rethan a set of scoundrels in the State offices. ply that the same committee might as well rerIt has been remarked, that men did not aspire to ulate every other matter of amendment. these offices for the honor they conferred, but The PRESIDENT. The Chair understands for the stealings. that the gentleman fraom Wayne has accepted Now, sir, I regret that such charges have m fro Wayne has accepted zn,.~ T01 i. of the modification. been made upon this floor. I affirm that it is o e modifi a burning shame, and scandal upon the State of Mr NEWTMAN assented. Indiana for any gentleman to intimate that we The PRESIDENT. The question is upon have ever had a set of thieves and scoundrels in the adoption of the amendment of the gentleoffice. We may occasionally have corrupt man from Wayne. 339 Mr. WOLFE. I would suggest the propri- common, when individuals have been snatched ety of prescribing some qualification for these up from the walks of private life to fill responofficers, such as what shall be their age, and sible stations, to find that the affairs of society how long shall they have resided in the State are conducted pretty much upon the same prinbefore they can be eligible; and whether they ciples and with as much skill and intelligence shall be white or black. as before." Mr. NEWMAN'S amendment was then agreed Mr. President, I hold that the zeal and earto: and the question recurred upon ordering the nestness with which the new incumbent enters article as amended to be engrossed and read a upon the duties of his office, often more than third time. make amends for his inexperience. But there A MEMBER. Is it in order to amend the is another important view which this writer article at this stage of the proceedingsl presents. " It is," he says, " of the greatest The PRESIDENT. No, sir. The matter importance where the electoral franchise is exreported by the committee having been all tensively enjoyed, that as large a number of citstricken out and a new article substituted, the izens as practicable should be initiated into the matter substituted must stand as the judgment mode of conducting public affairs, and there is of the Convention. no way by which this can be so well effected Mr. READ of Monroe said- as by rotation in office." Mr. PRESIDENT: The principle of ineligibil- We all hold to the doctrine of rotation in reity after a certain term of service as applied to gard to public political offices. I mean in thethe State administrative officers, is a new one, ory we hold it. But when it comes to practice, and has not yet been introduced, so far as I am each particular case is claimed as an exception aware, into any State Constitution. While I to the general rule. All parties talk about rowould not choose to adhere to any principle of tation in office-the outs perhaps more than the government for no other reason than that it is ins; if there is any sincerity in the declarations old, I would not reject it simply because it is which we hear in behalf of the principle, let it new. But new modes of political action should, go into the Constitution, and be established as before being adopted, be fully and calmly dis- a rule of action. cussed. Mr. President, I thought the allusion of the I am in favor of the principle of such ineligi- gentleman from Delaware (Mr. Kilgore) to Jefbility as is embraced in the report of the commit- ferson as "a man-of a past age," peculiarly untee and embodied in the amended form of that happy. Why, sir, if this Convention should report, by the gentleman from Wayne (Mr. now just adopt the reforms proposed by JefferNewman). son in his Kercheval Letters of 1816, and then This principle is objected to upon two grounds. go home, we should have adopted the identical First, that it is a restriction upon the power of reforms which our constituents require. the people. If it is so, I see no force in the ob- The article was ordered to be engrossed and jection. A written Constitution is from be- read a third time. ginning to end a restriction upon power. It LENGTH OF THE DIL SESSONS restrains the powers of officers-it restrains the powers of majorities-it prescribes the mode of On motion by Mr. BASCOM, the regular exercising the powers it grants-it declares who order of business was suspended, and the conshall elect-and who may be elected. A con- sideration of the resolution submitted yesterday stitutional government is essentially a govern- by Mr. HALL, was taken up. ment of restraints-of self-imposed restraints. The resolution was read by the Secretary, By the existing Constitution the Governor is in- and is as follows: eligible after a second term. It is now proposed Resolved, That the resolution heretofore adoptto extend this principle to the administrative ed abolishing the afternoon session of this Conofficers, so that the principle is new only in the vention be. and the same is hereby, rescinded: proposed application. and that hereafter this Convention shall hold afThe second objection is, it rejects and throws ternoon sessions. away the best experience of the country. I Mr. KILGORE remarked that a quorum had beg, on this subject, to read from Judge Grimke's not voted. work on the nature and tendency of Free Insti- Mr. PETTIT. Mr. PRESIDENT: I will move tutions. [Cries of "read, read."] It is, I may to fix Monday next as the day, upon which the observe, a remarkably calm and reflective view Convention shall resume afternoon sessions. of popular government, and an able vindication Let me say that there are several important comof our American institutions. mittees which have not yet reported. They can"It has been supposed that where these nnotmeetin the evening to hold important meetchanges are frequent, the persons elected must ings and the afternoons have not yet afforded sufbe, for the most part, inexperienced and incom- ficient time to mature all the reports. I will menpetent. Public office itself, creates, to a great tion that the Committee on the organization of extent, the very ability which is required for the courts of law, met yesterday afternoon with a performance of its duties. It is not at all un- view of coming to a definite conclusion of their la 340 bors. We were in close session from two o'clock may prosecute on an allegation of fraud. There until six and we were unable to finish our report, would be no way to secure the rights of the debut shall require further sessions. There are frauded creditor. There are men of so hardenseveral important committees in the same po- ed and desperate a character that you must bring sition. Several gentlemen are upon different them to the jail dAr before they will disclose committees and their action is further delayed the possession of prolerty and deliver it up for on this account, as one o ther the other of the co- the satisfaction of their honest creditors. We mittees to which they belong cannot get a quo- must, if we would consult the interests of the rum. Therefore, I hope the Convention will fix mass of honest citizens,allow imprisonment for Monday next for the day upon which this reso- debt when there is strong presumptive evidence lution is to take effect. I am convinced that the of fraud. I do not think the term so difficult to action of this body insteadof being delayed there- be understood, or so liable to misconstruction, by will be expedited. as has been represented by the gentleman from Mr. BASCOM. I hope that the Convention Decatur and others. A chain of circumstances will not consent to postpone the operation of this will generally indicate, with sufficient clearness resolution until Monday next. How much ben- to prevent the doing of injustice to the innocent, efit is it expected that one hundred and fifty men whether the debtor has concealed means with will reap from the committee- labors of some whichhe might discharge his debts, or whether dozen? Gentlemen should not be allowed to he is really unfortunate and unable to satisfy the waste the time of this large body on the pre- demands against him. There is scarcely the tence possibility of injuring the innocent man. On The PRESIDENT. The gentleman from the other hand, without that provision the fraudWells will leave off such remarks upon other ulent debtor is secure in the possession of propgentlemen. erty, the creditor cannot compel him to disclose Mr. BASCOM. Well, we have got work its possession and deliver it up, and he will selenough now lying on our table to keep us at work dom have the disposition to prosecute him in a until some time in December, if the committees criminal court for fraud. should not report until then. We shall never I shall not consume time by making a speech, accomplish the business for which we were sent but I repeat my conviction that the section is here if we only work one half the time. If we right as it now reads and should remain unchanggo on and hold sessions as we ought to, twice a ed. I shall therefore vote against the proposiday, we could, after we had got up even with tion to amend. the business now on the table, suspend afternoon Mr. ROBINSON. In order to bring the Consessions if it was necessary in order [several vention to a direct vote upon the principle invoices here called for the question] to give these volved in the amendment and to test the feelcommittees more time. For my part I am tired ing of members, I will accept the amendment to of walking around the streets all the afternoon, my amendment, made by the gentleman over the with nothing to do. way (Mr. Howe). As amended, my proposiThe question upon Mr. PETTIT'S motion to tion would now stand thus: resume afternoon sessions on Monday next, was "There shall be no imprisonment for debt exthen taken, and the same was agreed to without cept in cases of fraud." a division. This may effect my object in moving to amend The Convention then proceeded to the con- the section, although it is not so certain and spesideration of the report of the committee on the cific as I could desire. "bill of rights," the pending question being upon Mr. DUNN. I would inquire of the Presithe motion to strike out from the first section dent if it would now be in order, to move to the words' strong presumption ot" after the strike out the whole section and substitute anwords "there shall be no imprisonment for debt other new one? except in case of" and before the word "fraud." The PRESIDENT. It will be in order, but Mr. WATTS. Mr. PRESIDENT: I am op- I suppose it isnot strictly in order while the preposed to the amendmen, and to the amendment sent motion is pending. to the amendment. In my opinion the section Mr. DUNN. I will read my substitue for inisjust right as it is and I shall therefore oppose formation. I propose to strike out all of the origany alteration. I do not think, Sir, that the in- inal section and insert the following: terests of the honest man are well guarded with- There shall be no imprisonment for debt exout such a provision. Without it an individual cept in cases of fraud, and the debtor shall not might go into the country anywhere and pur- be continued inprison, after he shall have dechase property upon a credit; he might sell that livered up his estate for the benefit of his credproperty and convert the proceeds into money, itor or creditors, in such manner as shall be (and it is well known to every member, that prescribed by law. you cannot reach money in a man's pocket by I have but a word or two to offer in presentan execution,) and he may use that money in ing this substitute. I find that there is a didefending himself in a suit at law, which the vision of sentiment-a great difference of creditor, of whom the property was purchased opinion relative to the form which should be 341 given to this important section. A part of this rights of the honest creditor, by giving the body is opposed to imprisonment for debt under power, in extreme cases, to arrest a dishonest any circumstances; another party is in favor of debtor and compel the disclosure of property, imprisonment for debt in cases of fraud; and where he has it in possession, and its delivery no member is in favor of imprisonment of the for the discharge of his lawful obligations to debtor after he has delivered up his property for his fellow-citizens. If we limit the power of the benefit of his creditors. arrest for debt to clear cases of fraud, to be There is a great difference between a negative proven to the satisfaction of the court and jury, and a positive provision on this subject. My no danger can arise of injury or oppression of proposition will not require the Legislature, even the debtor. in cases of fraud, to pass laws for the imprison- Those familiar with the business affairs and ment of debtors; but it will restrain the Legis- transactions of the State, and especially those lature from providing for imprisonment for debt, who live, as we do, upon the borders of the except in cases of fraud. I am clearly of opin- State, and know the facility with which frauduion that this Convention should impose as few lent debtors secure property and escape to a restrictions as possible upon the legislative de- neighboring State, where collection becomes partmenL, and only those which are clearly and almost impossible, know the absolute necessity absolutelynecessary. Now, sir, I thinkitwrong that exists for some law for the protection of to declare that the Legislature shall not have creditors. We very often see men, in the posthe power to enact laws providing for imprison- session of property purchased upon credit, sellment for debt under any circumstances what- ing off that property which is subject to execuever. And yet I am aware that the feeling of tion, and converting the proceeds to money and many in this body is that the Legislature should funds which cannot be reached by execution, be prohibited from legalizing imprisonment for and preparing to leave the State rich, it may be, debt, no matter how fraudulent the action of the from the proceeds of property which they have debtor may be proven to be-no matter though virtually swindled from our citizens. Under the he has the money in his pocket which would operation of a constitutional provision, as prodischarge all his debts, but openly sets the cred- posed by the gentleman from Owen (Mr. Dobitor at defiance. They are willing to adopt an son) and others, the creditor in such a case amendment to this section which would leave must look on quietly but powerless to resist and the fraudulent debtor to go free, and his creditor assert his rights. But, on the other hand, with without redress, save his power to prosecute the a law, the substance of which I have embraced debtor in a criminal court, but where he cannot iu my amendment, providing for arrest and imr connect a civil action so as to reach the prop- prisonment in case of fraud, the creditor, when erty of the debtor. My desire is to give the he should discover a state of things like that I creditor some process whereby he may secure have described, could, upon an afiidavit mIde, his rights; for, Mr. President, it seems to be require the debtor to appear and answer to a partially overlooked that the creditor has rights charge of fraud; and upon making proof of fraud, worthy of protection. And I ask that we shall the debtor could be lodged in jail until he deallow the Legislature to protect him under livered up the property for the satisfaction of proper restrictions, the creditor. The seventeenth article of the bill of rights With these views, I shall vote against the of the old Constitution provides, in substance, pending amendment; and if that is voted down, that there shall be no imprisonment for debt I shall then propose to strike out the whole of alter tire debtor shall have delivered up his the original section, and offer the substitute I property for the benefit of his creditors. It is have read. a very wise provision; and I have copied sub- Mr. ROBINSON. Before the vote is tak-. 5lT = ^ ^",.. -Mr. ROBINSON. Before the vote is takstantially that feature of the provision. I am as much in favor of restricting the power of en imprisonment for debt, as I am desirous to pro- The PRESIDENT. Wil the Convention tect the rights of the creditor. I do not think give the gentleman leave to speak a third time that the Legislature should provide for the pun- upon the pending question 1 ishment of the debtor for fraud after he has de- Consent was given, and livered up his property for the benefit of his Mr. ROBINSON remarked, that he only decreditors; he should then be discharged from sired to explain his position and views in as custody as a debtor. few words as possible. Mr. President, I cannot understand the basis I have (said MIr. R.) always been willing to upon which gentlemen are acting, who are so sit quietly and listen patiently to gentlemen desirous of prohibiting imprisonment for debt who deemed it their duty to explain their views under all circumstances. I cannot see what ob- and their reasons for their action. I am not ligations we are under to vote the freedom of fond of speaking, and I am never on the floor the State to the fraudulent debtor, by saying except when I feel it to be my imperative duty in the organic law we are now framing, that the to explain the position I occupy and the reason Legislature shall have no power to secure the for my votes. 34 v Having proposed the amendment upon which! tion of fraud in his business transactions? I the question is about to be taken, I desire brief- believe that no such sentiment exists here. If ly to explain why I hope it will be adopted. I did believe it, if I thought such a sentiment We have in this country, not only a class of prevailed here, I should almost be decided to unfortunate debtors, but also a class of unfortu- leave this chamber! But there is no such sennate creditors, and both are entitled to protec- timent here. We will say to the creditor, you tion and legislative and constitutional regard. shall not imprison your debtor because he is I am no more disposed to concede all the bene- poor. We say to him this: We open the door fits of legislation and constitutional provisions to you to sue for the recovery of your debt, and to the creditor than I am to the debtor. We you may connect the investigation for fraud cannot provide, in this instrument, for particu- with the action for recovery. And if it is provlar and isolated cases, but we must frame it en that the debtor is dishonestly keeping the with regard to the general interests of the peo- money in his pocket that should be given up pie. There is, in this country, a class of cred- to his creditor, he may be imprisoned until that itors who deserve the appellation of "Shylocks" money is given up. So long as I entertain our -men who would take from an unfortunate notions of liberty, so long as I know that all creditor, not only his entire property, but would men are liable to become poor, I will not give strip him and his family of every article of per- a vote the effect of which will be to allow the sonal necessity and comfort-aye, sir, would creditor to arrest and imprison a poor man at tear the man from his family and incarcerate his discretion. It is giving him power enough him in prison, if, by so doing, an additional dol- and protection enough when you allow him to lar could be forced from him. I make no re- arrest on a charge of fraud and to imprison when flection upon the gentleman from Dearborn. that charge has been proven in court. I know his honesty of purpose and goodness of My objection to the amendment of the genheart too well, but there are men in the com- tleman from Jefferson (Mr. Dunn) is this, it is munity-there are such Shylocks in the land not the adoption of the old law according to the as I have described. letter, but it is the adoption according to the Well, sir, in order to protect the unfortunate spirit. Under its provision, you commit the debtor-because, I say, there are many really debtor to jail, and throw upon him, while he is unfortunate debtors, and it is untrue that every lying within the walls of that jail, the burthen man who becomes embarrassed in his circum- of proof that he has made a correct schedule of stances, and unable to pay his debts, is destitute his effects, that he has delivered up all of his of moral principle-to protect this class, I would property for the benefit of his creditors. I am provide against imprisonment for debt, except in favor of compelling a man to pay his just in cases of fraud, proven by the party accusing. debts, where it has been proved that he has the There are thousands of insolvent debtors with ability to pay. The proposition I have offered as pure hearts and as honest purposes as any shows that such are my principles. But when delegate upon this floor, but fortune has frown- we are making an organic law-when we are ed upon them-adversity has come upon them laying down rules for posterity, not to be alterlike the winter's blast, stripped them of their ed for the space of half a century-I do think property, and they are reduced, oftentimes, in that if this Convention will sufficiently reflect, an hour, to abject poverty. And what man is they will, while they are securing the rights of there on this floor, who will raise in his place the creditor, pay equal attention to, and equally and say, that such a debtor should be arrested secure, the rights of the debtor. The amendand imprisoned, in violation of the spirit of our Inent now pending, which is my own, amended, free institutions and the declarations in our Bill by my acceptance, by the amendment of the of Rights. gentleman on my right, (Mr. Howe,) comes as Then, sir, believing as I do, that the amend- near to this equal protection as any proposition ment I have offered to the article now before that can be submitted. As amended, the secthis body, sufficiently guards the rights and in- tion would read: terests of the creditor, and at the same time "There shall be no imprisonment for debt throws around the debtor an equal guard and except in cases of fraud." protection, I hope, that in this day of enlight- I have now discharged my duty in presenting ened and philanthropic public opinion, it will and explaining this amendment, and I will connot be voted down. elude by expressing the hope that the ConvenThe effect of my amendment is this: you can tion will adopt it instead of the substitute proconnect an investigation of fraud with an inves- posed by the gentleman firom Jefferson. tigation for the recovery of debt. And is there Mr. NEWMAN. It does seem to me, Mr. a delegate here who will say that an unfortu- President, that the amendment proposed by the nate debtor, whose fathers may have fought in gentleman from Jefferson, is more appropriate the revolutionary struggle which secured us' than any other which has been offered since the the right to govern ourselves, shall be imprison- article was reported from the committee. The ed for no crime but that of poverty, because ( original proviso is in these words —" except in some Shylock asserts that there is a presump- cases of strong presumption of fraud." I would 343 have the charge of fraud established before the tion, I move the adoption of the amendment I debtor should be imprisoned. I think that we have already read. should accomplish the object evidently aimed Mr. KILGORE. I move farther to amendby at by a majority of the Convention, and that it adding to the amendment of the gentleman from would be eminently safe to say, " there shall be Posey, the following words —- and until he surno imprisonment for debt, except in case of renders the same," so that the section as amendfraud." As to the method of proof, that is a ed, wouldread, question of evidence, and will properly come up There shall be no imprisonment for debt, but before the legislature for settlement. If a clear a debtor, fraudulently concealing or refusing to case of fraud is not proven, then I do not want surrender his property, may be imprisoned unti' imprisonment to take place at all; therefore I he surrenders the same. am not in favor of the term " strong presump- Mr. OWEN. I will accept the amendment. tion of fraud." I wantit more than a presump- Mr. NEWMAN. I rise to a question of ortion, however strong, I would require proof. der. When the pending question is upon a moAs to the residue of the substitute, providing tion to strike out an entire section, and to subthat the person of the debtor shall not be kept stitute a new one, is it in order to propose in prison after the surrender of his property, I amendments to the original section approve of it. The PRESIDENT. It is in order to make My friend from Decatur (Mr. Robinson) is a proposition as perfect as possible, before a mistaken if he supposes that the substitute of- vote is taken upon striking out. fered by the gentleman from Jefferson, preserves Mr. NEWMAN. This proposition to amend the spirit of the old Constitution. It differs is the same in substance, as the substitute offermaterially from that. First, we establish the ed by the gentleman from Jefferson, (Mr. Dunn). principle that there shall be no imprisonment The propositions are substantially the same,exfor debt, except for fraud. Then comes in an- cept in so far as the amendment relates to the other and additional provision, that the person fraudulent concealment of property. of the fraudulent debtor shall not be continued Mr. BORDEN moved that the Convention in prison after he has delivered up his property adjourn. for the satisfaction of his creditors. I am in fa- Mr. COLFAX. Upon that question I ask for vor of that humane provision, but I am not in the yeas and nays. favor of the provision originally reported in the Mr. BORDEN. If there is a feeling against article before us; neither would I support the an adjournment, I will withdraw the motion. whole of the article in the old Constitution. Mr. DUNN. The object of the gentleman Mr. DUNN offered the amendment which he from Posey can be accomplished by accepting had pre y reviously read. my substitute, and I think its statement of the Mr. DOBWON inquired if the amendment declaration and provision is the best. I prefer which he had offered on yesterday but which that the Legislature shall have full scope in this was decided out of order, would not now be in regard, and do as it may think best. order. The question on Mr. Owen's amendment was The PRESIDENT remarked that no propo- then taken, and the same was, upon a division, sition decided to be out of order, was now before agreed to, by a vote of fifty-six to thirty-six. the Convention. Mr. DUNN. I now move to strike out the Mr. DOBSON then moved to amend by stri- entire section. king out all after the word " debt." I would remark that there is a palpable conThe question being taken upon adopting the tradiction of terms in the section as it now reads. amendment, the Convention refused to adopt it. It commences with the positive declaration that The question then being upon the amend- " there shall be no imprisonment for debt," and ment of the gentleman from Jefferson, (Mr. afterwards provides that there shall be. Dunn,) Mr. OWEN. The intention and design of Mr. OWEN. Before the vote is taken upon the amendmemt that I have proposed, is, that this amendment I desire to endeavor to perfect there shall be no imprisonment for debt, but that the section by offering the following amend- there shall be imprisonment for fraudulently ment: concealing property. "There shall be no imprisonment for debt, but The question was then taken upon Mr. Dunn's a debtor, fraudulently concealing or refusing to motion to strike out and insert, and, upon a disurrender his property, may be imprisoned." vision, the same was disagreed to, by a vote of In the amendment offered by the gentleman fifty-five to forty-nine. from Jefferson, we have an indefinite provision. On motion by What is it that shall be held to constitute a Mr. EDMONSTON, the Convention adjournfraud 3 Shall the contracting of a debt be con- ed until to-morrow morning at nine o'clock. sidered a fraud? Or, shall the concealing of property 1 If the first, the person should be punished for obtaining goods under false pretences. Now, in order to make the proper distinc 344 WEDNESDAY, Nov. 6th. from St. Joseph, (Mr. Colfax,) between myself The Convention met, pursuant to adjourn- and the gentleman from Delaware, (r. Kilment. gore,) I am represented as acknowledging Prayer by the Rev. Mr. CREsSY. myself as having fallen from grace. [A laugh.] The journal of yesterday was read and ap- What was said was this: the gentleman from proved. Delaware put the question to me whether I had not been a supporter of Mr. Van Buren, and CORRECTIONS. whether he had not advocated the doctrine of Mr. READ of Monroe rose and addressed giving the right of suffrage to colored persons. the Chair as follows: I remarked that that was before Mr. Van Buren Mr. President, I rise not to a correction of our had fallen from grace. journal-hardly to a correction of our reports. Now, sir, so far from my falling from grace, But if good jokes are to be interpolated in our I am gradually becoming more confirmed in the debates, we have as many in this corner as in faith-still looking forward to that happy peany part of the Hall, and I would be glad to riod when the democracy will all find themknow how they may go into our reported de- selves combined in one solid phalanx. bates. A scene is represented to have occurred Mr. KILGORE. My worthy friend must be in another part of the Hall, of which the gen- aware that it is not I who have set him wrong. tleman from Wayne (Mr. Rariden) is made the I had not the pleasure of seeing the speech unhero, which did not occur. This I know from tii this morning. I think the gentleman is the gentleman from Wayne himself, who, a quite orthodox. I would be the last man in the half hour after I read certain extracts from world to charge my friend from Dubois with Gen. Jackson's address, came to me and told falling from democratic grace; because he is, as me he had a notion to make the remark which I very well know, one of the most ultra demoI see is imputed to him in the report as pub- crats in the State. lished in the State Journal of yesterday. What Mr. GRAHAM of WVarrick submitted the was said is not reported; what was not said is following communication: reported. The only remark which was made, INDIANAPOLIS, Nov. 6th, 1850. was by the gentleman from Switzerland, (Mr. To the Constitutional Convention: Kelso,) who said: " now, if this isn't as good a trick as I ever had played upon me, I don't The undersigned, having been elected the know." But if scenes which did not occur are Printer to your honorable body, has obtained to be represented as having occurred, I wish to the paper from the Secretary of State to comknow how, that in this corner we may have our mence the printing of the Journal and Debates, part.* which he holds himself in readiness to perform The PRESIDENT. Does the gentleman when the Convention may order the same. find any fault with the journal and of the pro- In the mean time,he would most respectfully ceedings. suggest that he is laboring under great inconMr. READ. No, sir; it is the journal of the venience on account of the Convention not dedebates that I speak of. ciding the amount of printing they will reThe PRESIDENT. That is a matter be- quire. tween the gentleman and the reporters. He has given bond in the penalty of $5000 Mr. CLARKE of Tippecanoe said, he was for the faithful execution of the work. Unless of the impression that the remark referred to the Journal and Debates are printed, the printwas made by the gentleman from Wayne. He ing for the Convention will not amount to had a recollection of hearing some such remark, $300. although it was probably not heard by the gen- From the penalty in his bond, he thinks he tleman from Monroe. was justified in anticipating that he would be Mr. READ. I am informed by gentlemen entitled to all the printing connected with the around me that no such remark was made. duties of your body. Mr. COLFAX said he recollected that the But he makes no argument in vindication of gentleman from Wayne was sitting near him what he supposes to be his rights, leaving the on the occasion referred to, and he distinctly whole matter to the unbiased judgment of the heard that gentleman make a remark, contain-Convention, hoping that early steps may be ing some allusion to Moses; what the precise taken to determine the amount of printing he nature of the remark was, he was not able to may be required to execute, that he may make say. his arrangements accordingly. Mr. EDMONSTON. I rise, sir, to a privi- (Signed,) AUSTIN H. BROWN. ledged question. In the report of the debate The communication having been read, which occurred on Monday of last week, in re- Mr. GRAHAM said, that without expressing gard to a resolution proposed by the gentleman an opinion in regard to his own views and feel-ings on the subject, or as to the course he should NdiTE BY MR. Rm D. — imtr Rariden informs me that he take when the subject should come before the Clerk's desk-that probably not a dozen heard him.-D. sitCoventi on, he ould m that the petition be Clerk's desk —that probably not a dozen heard him. —D. R.] Convention, he would move that the petition be 345 referred to a select committee, and as that corn- haps neither journal nor debates will be printmittee would probably be composed of legal ed in book form. gentlemen, I shall desire to be excused from Now I give notice, and I do not do it by way serving upon it. of bravado, for I do say it is perfectly useless to The PRESIDENT. Of what number shall employ a Stenographer at an expense of several the committee consist? thousand dollars, and not have the debates pubMr. GRAHAM. Of five members. lished in a permanent form-I give notice that Mr. BORDEN. I think, sir, that it is due I will move to dispense with the services of the to ourselves that this question should be decided. Stenographer, without meaning any disrespect If it is the intention of the Convention to have to that gentleman, unless the Convention dethe journal of their proceedings published, they termine to order the publication of the debates ought so to decide. If they intend to leave it and proceedings in a permanent form, so that to the Legislature, they ought to avow their de- they may be of some benefit to our constitutermination, in order that gentlemen may know ents. Sir, the course that has been pursued what to rely upon. I think it is due to the by Kentucky, New York, and other States Printer, who has been elected by the Conven- where Conventions have been held, has estabtion, that the decision should be made. lished the precedent; and we, as I have reI have myself, as is well known to the Con- marked, have elected a Printer to do the work vention, advocated the position that the State of this body exclusively, and it is our duty to Printer should do the printing; but I am not in- say to him, so that he may know what to rely dined to throw any obstacle in the way of de- upon, whether we will have our debates and ciding the matter. If it is the intention of the proceedings published in a permanent form or Convention to give the printing to the Printer not, and it' published, how many copies we will who has been elected by the Convention, they have. I wish this question to be decided; and ought so to say, and not leave the matter at I have no objection that it shall be referred to loose ends, as it is at present. the select committee, not for the purpose of inI understand that there is one printing vestigating who has the claim to the printing, esa - whether the State printer or the printer who lishment now printing our debates; and in those whether the State printer or the printer who published debates are many errors. I tam has been elected by this body, but to ascertain pae, and state what number of copies shall be printfor instance, represented as expressing the opin- and state what number of copitake from the table ion that the Convention had not the right toe order the publication of the debates an pro- the resolution which I have heretofore offered, order the publication of the debates and pro-e reedings. I never said that; all I said was, that and to refer it to the select committee, if one be ceedings. I never said that; all I said was, that apit the printing of the Convention was authorised i by the Legislature; but that I had no doubt the The PRESIDENT. The gentleman's moConvention might fix the number of copies to tion is not now in order. There is a motion be published of their debates and proceedings. already pending. I do think that it is better to come to a decision The question being put on the motion of the as to whether the State Printer shall publish gentleman from Washington, to refer the petiour debates and proceedings or not. tion to a select committee of five, it was, upon Mr. FOSTER. I concur with the gentle- a division, ayes 70, noes not counted-decided man as to the propriety of coming to a decision in the affirmative. in regard to this question of printing. My mind Mr. FOSTER. I now move to refer the in regard to the matter has been long made up, resolution to the same committee. that the Convention has power to determine all The PRESIDENT. There is no resolution questions connected with its proceedings, and pending. to take such action in relation thereto as they r. FOSTER. Excuse me sir. I move to may deem expedient. I some time ago offered take from the table the resolution that I have a resolution, which has been laid on your table, te om the te the otion a for the purpose of determining how many copies mn ed of the debates and proceedings should be pub- The PRESIDENT. The question will be lished. There seemed to be some opposition to on dispensing with the regular order of business it, and the resolution still remains upon the for the purpose of taking up the resolution which table. I certainly think we should come to the gentleman has indicated. some understanding in regard to this matter, as The question was put, and by unanimous conhas been suggested by the gentleman from Al- sent the regular order of business was dispensed len. The debates are now being published in with, and the resolution was taken up. a newspaper; but there is no provision for the On motion of Mr. FOSTER, the resolution publication in a permanent form. It has been was referred to the same committee. the universal custom of all Conventions to have The resolution is in substance as follows: the control of this matter, and not leave it to That the Printer to the Convention be authe Legislature. And I fear that if it be left to thorized to print -- copies of the debates and the Legislature they will pass it over; and per- proceedings of the Convention in book form. 346 Mr. BORDEN had moved to amend the res- t The PRESIDENT. What is the character olution by striking out the words "Printer to of the amendment which the gentleman desires,the Convention," and inserting "State Printer." to propose? Mr. BORDEN said, he wished to make one Mr. HENDRICKS. The section as it now further observation in relation to this subject. reads, is to this effect: It would seem, said Mr. B., from the manner in "There shall not be imprisonment for debt, which the debates have been published so far, but a debtor fraudulently concealing his propthat nothing goes upon the journal of debates erty, &c.," I propose to make it read "There but such resolutions and propositions as are de- shall be no imprisonment for debt, but a debtor bated, and that such as are not debated are not refusing to surrender, &c." published at all. This will lead inevitably to The PRESIDENT. If the gentleman pro-the publication of two volumes. Now I ob- poses to strike out anything that has been alserve that in other States were Conventions ready voted upon and adopted by the Convenhave been held, all the proceedings and debates tion, it is not in order. are uniformly incorporated in one volume, and Mr. HENDRICKS. Then, sir, I will move I do not know why it should not be so here. I to amend by adding the following words: do not see the necessity for having two volumes. "To such extent as may be prescribed by And I call the attention of the Convention, at law." this time, to the subject, because I think it is Mr. OWEN. Will it be in order for any due to those gentlemen on this floor who do not one voting with the majority to move a re-conparticipate in the debate, that those propositions sideration of the vote by which a portion of the which they present should go into the publish- section has been stricken out, so as to give the ed proceedings, as well as the propositions gentleman an opportunity to introduce his which are debated. This condition of things amendment 3 has been brought about, as gentlemen will re- The PRESIDENT. The rule requires that collect, by the adoption of a resolution intro- such a motion shall lie over one day. duced by the gentleman from Switzerland, (Mr. Mr. BORDEN. It may be done, I appreKelso,) not now in his seat. hend, by unanimous consent. The question being taken on the motion to The PRESIDENT. Does the gentleman refer, it was agreed to, and the resolution was give notice of a motion to re-consider? referred to the select committee. Mr. OWEN. No, sir. I withdraw the moMr. BORDEN, from the committee on the tion. practice of law and law reform, reported the Mr. KILGORE. It seems to me that this following section: matter may be easily disposed of. I believe SEC. -. All prosecutions shall be carried on that a motion was made yesterday, by the genin the name of, and by the authority of, the tleman from Posey, (Mr. Owen,) with the view State, and the style of the process shall be of making the section as perfect as possible. I "The State of Indiana." ask if the object of the gentleman over the way The Section was read a first time, and passed (Mr. Hendricks) cannot be accomplished by to a second reading to-morrow. proposing to amend by adding to that which has been inserted' The PRESIDENT. That is the motion WEDNESDAY, Nov. 6, 1850.-Continued. which the gentleman has now made. r. R from te c mite on cun The question being taken on the motion of the gentleman from Shelby, it was not agreed ty and township organization reported the fol- to. lowing section, which was read and passed to a Mr OWEN moved to strike out the section second reading to-morrow' second reading to-morrow: and insert the following: SEC. -. No county shall subscribe for stock, There shall not be imprisonment for debt in any incorporated company, unless the same but laws may be passed for the punishment, by be paid for at the time of such subscription, nor imprisonment or otherwise, of a debtor who shall any county loan her credit to, or borrow shall fraudulently conceal, or refuse to surrenmoney for the purpose of taking stock in any der, his property.",incorporation. Mr. OWEN said, he would state to the ConORDERS OF THE DAY. vention why he made this motion. It would The PRESIDENT announced the first bus- be remembered that it was on his motion that iness in order to be the consideration of article the section was amended yesterday. It had Second, reported from the committee on the been suggested to him since, by the gentleman rights and privileges of the inhabitants of the from Hancock, he believed, and by other genState. tlemen also, that as the section now stood it Mr. HENDRICKS inquired if that portion was not positive and definite. It was not posiof the article which had been amended on the tive and definite, because it did not show what motion of the gentleman from Posey (Mr. Owen) the remedy was, whether by suit to be prosewas susceptible of further amendment. cuted by an individual for the recovery of a 347 debt, or at the instance of the State, as a crim- fers, rather than suppress them. The gentleinal prosecution. I believe (said Mr. Owen) man's sympathies seem to be all on the side of that the section, as I now propose to make it, the debtor that fraudulently transfers or conwill have, in every respect, the same force, ex- ceals his property. Will he sustain fraud, and cept that it separates entirely the two subjects. allow the unoffending creditor to be deprived of I say there shall not be imprisonment for debt, a remedy against the person of his fraudulent but I provide further, that a law may be passed debtor? Such will be the effect of his proposiby the Legislature making the fraudulent with- tion-a proposition that I cannot consent to, holding or concealing of property a criminal and hope will not be adopted. Our sympathies, offense. It seems to me that that is the proper as well as those of our legislators, for years, mode of disposing of the subject. have run in one current to protect the debtor, Mr. DUNN of Jefferson. Is it in order to without discrimination between the unfortunate call for a division of the question? and fraudulent. The PRESIDENT. It is not in order. A. Is not the creditor to be protected against motion to strike out and insert is indivisible. frauzd? Shall he have no remedy against the Mr. DUNN. I think, sir, that the amend- person of the debtor in cases of fraudulent ment of the gentleman from Posey (Mr. Owen) transferring and concealing of property, which ought not to be adopted. The effect of it will he should surrender? be to deprive the creditor of all remedy or I will go as far as any gentleman, to protect means for the recovery of his debt. It is but a the unfortunate debtor from imprisonment for poor consolation, when he sees his debtor pock- debt, in a word there should be no imprisonment et his money and refuse to pay him, to be told for debt; unless the debtor fraudulently transfers that he may be punished for fraud, by an action or conceals his property and estate; then the on behalf of the State. I think that we ought exemption should be withdrawn, the creditor to protect the rights of the creditor. It was for then should have the benefit of law to operate that purpose that I introduced my resolution upon the person of such fraudulent debtor, until yesterday. I am in favor of imprisoning all the property or estate, or as much as may be the fraudulent scoundrels in the State. necessary, be surrendered to discharge the debt. [Cries of"consent."] The state of public opinion requires thisMr. OWEN. I desire to say only a few with less it will not be satisfied. words, if no other gentleman wishes to speak The position of a law maker is not worth before the question is taken on my amendment. having when those holding such places pander The gentleman from Jefferson (Mr. Dunn) says to such influences as protectfraud. The genhe is in favor of imprisoning all the dishonest tleman says he is for making fraud an indictable scoundrels in the State; I am afraid, sir, if such and punishable offense. I have said what I supa thing should take place, that our penitentiaries pose is well known to every member, that this would be very much crowded. [Laughter.] is and has been the law for many years; that But to look at the matter seriously. The ques- conviction under the law will result to the bention is not whether the dishonest debtor shall efit of the State, but not to the creditor; it will be imprisoned, but whether he shall be impris- not cause the debtor to surrender up his cononed upon the action and at the pleasure of the cealed property or estate, to satisfy the demand creditor, or at the instance of the State, and ac- of the creditor; the debtor may still keep the cording to the provisions of the criminal law. concealed property or estate, notwithstanding Now, in my judgment, it is not a matter which the course taken. Let us then provide that ought to be left in the hands of the creditor, there shall be no imprisonment for debt, except smarting, it may be, under losses-actuated, in casss offraud. The creditor will be satisfied, perhaps, by motives of revenge. The impris- the unfortunate debtor will be protected and onment should be, not for debt, not even for satisfied, and no one will object unless it be the sake of extorting the disclosure of hidden the debtor who fraudulently transfers or conproperty, but simply as the punishment of fraud- ceals his property and estate. nlent conduct towards the creditor. It is with Mr. DOBSON. It seems difficult to arrange these views that I have moved the amendment.: a section on this subject to the satisfaction of Mr. WALPOLE. The amendment, Mr. the Convention. My original idea was that President, proposed by the member from Posey, we should just insert in the new Constitution (Mr. Owen,) will be of no service to the cred- the short, plain section. no imprisonment for itor. Almost from the organization of our debt, for that practically expresses the public State Government there has been a law, sentiment of this State. makingit indictable and punishable for a person I would remark further, that the amendment to assign or transfer his property to defraud of the gentleman from Posey (Mr. Owen) will creditors. I have not known of a prosecution carry out that idea, no imprisonment for debt, under the law, and doubtless hundreds of cases and wil also imprison and punish the debtor of fraudulent transfers have occurred. I am of for fraud. I am opposed to imprisoning a man the decided opinion that should the amendment for debt at all, but fraud on the part of the be adopted, it would encourage fraudulent trans- debtor I would make a criminal offence, and 348 when he surrendered up his property I would Mr. HOLMAN. The section as it now discharge him. stands amended, proposes to give the creditor a The gentleman from Hancock (Mr. Walpole) remedy for the collection of his debt by imprissays, that there is upon the Statute Book a law onment, when that debt is coupled with a fraud. of that kind, and that it has not been enforced The amendment offered by the gentleman from for five years. Posey (Mr. Owen) proposes that there shall Mr. WALPOLE (interposing). It has nev- be no imprisonment for debt as a remedial er been enforced to my knowledge, during that agent-but that fraud coupled with debt shall period. be prosecuted solely as a criminal offense. In Mr. DOBSON. Of course that is what I England it was not unusual under the common understood the gentleman to say, I would in- law that offenses now punishable in this State quire of the gentleman if he has ever seen at only as criminal offenses, were left to the conany time, a man imprisoned, in Indiana, for, trol of the prosecutor. For instance, in the case debt. of a man guilty of an assault and battery; prosMr. WALPOLE. I have, but it was a long ecution was instituted under the common law time since. It was the case of a very unfortu- by information at the instance of the party innate debtor. [A laugh.1 jured, and the prosecuting witnesses might at Mr. DOBSON. Public sentiment has been any time compromise the matter as to the private injury sustained, and dismiss the prosecugrowing more and more enlightened upon this tio. In t nstane the law guarantied the subject for the last several years. When It If prosutingtan the l aw guarantied til first came into the State it was a common thing htf a criminal ing complaint for the purpose of punishing and reto imprison for debt. The corporation limits dressing private purpose of punishing and re then were the bounds. The next step was to dressing private injury, and gave to the party have the limits of the county for bounds; and inured the rght to compound. I consider the that is the case I believe now. You might as i principle under consideration somewhat similar. well, after dropping a pebble in the water, exit The idea of imprisonment for debt is abandoned. well, after dropping a pebble in the water, ex- timewshendbtndin ltop The time was when debt and inability to pay pect that the extended circles produced by such and n a t s p action, will come back again to the centre, as were regare ascrmnaland punished assuch expect public opinion to come back to the jail e enlightened policy now prevails. There may be imprisonment for debt coupled with fraud, walls again. Thus we are retaining a principle andy be imprisonment be made use of only as upon the Statute Book which is not enforced. a remedial agent, and not for the punishment.W e 1h ol to th e.r tha t w e ips a remedial agent, and not for the punishment We hold out to the world that we imprison of the fraud as a matter of merely criminal prosmen for debt, when we never do it. There hasecution been no imprisonment for debt, to my knowl- t has been well remarked by gentlemen, edge, for several years. that an enlightened policy in regard to this The gentleman from Jefferson (Mr. Dunn) question has been rapidly growing up amongst desires to have all the debtor's property before our peope r the last ten or twelve years a he will let him out. When he surrenders all feeli eral and enlightened humanity has feeling of liberal and enlightened humanity has his estate then he is in favor of discharging been increasing, not only in this State, but in him. I thought, sir, that it was the law of the the other States of the Union. I presume that land that the debtor should be secured a homesead tat lthe ebto s e see a ho in none of the States is debt and inability to pay regarded as a crime; and yet in most of the Mr. DUNN of Jefferson (interposing). I States and throughout the civilized world, debt will explain to the gentleman from Owen, that coupled withfraud is placed, to some extent, on I expressed myself in favor of discharging the the same footing with criminal offenses, and the debtor after he had surrendered up such prop- law with its coercive influence, to a limited exerty as was prescribed by law. tent, comes to the aid of the creditor in the enMr. DOBSON. I was simply replying to forcement of his claim against a fraudulent debtwhat I supposed to be the gentleman's argu- or. I am inclined to think that imprisonment ment. I think, sir, there would be a better simply for debt, unconnected with fraud, should state of society if we should punish the debtor never be tolerated, but where fraud is coupled who committed fraud like any other man who with the indebtedness, manifestly it is to the should commit an offense against the law. The interest of the people of Indiana that some remdistinction should be made between an honest edial agent should be adopted calculated to and a fraudulent debtor, and if the fraudulent reach the fraud and give the creditor a sufficient debtor is to be punished at all, let him be pun- remedy. There are statutes making it highly ished at the instance of the State as he would penal to transfer property with a view of debe for any other crime, and not by the individ- frauding the creditor, or to obtain goods under ual creditor-that punishment to be for the false pretences, yet the enforcement of those fraud, and not because he was in debt. There statutes againsc the perpetrators of either of may be many dishonest individuals in the State those offenses could produce no personal bene-but the law is sufficient now to punish them, fit to the party injured, the penalty imposed and if not it can easily be made so. would go to the State, and the party injured 349 would be without remedy unless an execution that there should be a reasonable provision made could effect the object by the seizure of proper- in the statute of frauds for the preservation of ty, or the party committing fraud could be the creditor from the fraudulent designs of a reached by process against his person. If it debtor. I contend, continued Mr. N., that it is is intended that the debt shall be collected and better to adopt the section before us, if, on conthe fraudulent debtor have means with which sideration, it shall be made to read, that, whento pay, but nothing on which to levy an execu- ever the creditor conceals his estate, he shall tion, his effects can be reached only by his im- be imprisoned; and that he shall be discharged prisonment, and he would then be compelled to only when he makes compensation for the insurrender the means under his control, in or- jury done to the creditor; that is, he may be der to obtain his discharge. Favoring a law of discharged in the manner prescribed by law this character, calculated only to reach the upon surrendering such portion of his estate as fraud, I think the section as amended should be the creditors may require, and fulfilling such duadopted. ties as the law may impose upon him. If these I do not think, sir, that the people of Indiana things are done, I say, he may be discharged, are prepared to countenance fraud, or give it whether he has acted fraudulently or not. protection by destroying the agents by which it The unfortunate debtor, who may have acted may be reached, and I believe they are opposed fraudulently, should have the means of extricato imprisonment for debt, unless that debt is tion, so that he may again mix with the world, coupled with some fraudulent act. and become, if possible, a good and useful citiThe amendment of the gentleman from Shel- zen. And whenever he makes such a surrender by (Mr. Hendricks) proposed that the debtor as, in the eye of the law, may be deemed suffi-.shall deliver up his property to the extent and in cient to satisfy the demands of the creditor-at.such manner as may be prescribed by law, and the same time such an one as will not deprive a section also has been reported providing that his own family of the necessaries of lifeit is the privilege of the debtor to enjoy the whenever, I say, he has thus complied with the necessary comforts of life. This is a safe and terms of the law, he should be discharged. Genwholesome provision, and I have no doubt will tlemen do not seem to wish that the fraudulent be adopted, and it will secure to the debtor debtor shall be continued in prison without any whether honest or not, a reasonable support for means of discharge. They desire that he may his wife and children. Humanity and the true go free upon a satisfactory compromise with the interests of the State demand this, for the State creditor, or after making such disgorgement of is certainly interested in securing every citizen his means as society and the law shall say is from want. But to say that no remedy whatev- right; and it appears to me that the amendment er, except by execution against property, shall I propose will accomplish that object. The exist when fraud is coupled with a debt, as a fraudulent debtor, be it understood, shall not go direct remedial agent, is unjust, and unfairly forth from prison holding a large amount of overlooks the rights of the creditor, and is a property, but a fair proportion of it shall be apmeasure which I trustwill not receive the sanc- plied for the payment of his creditors. My tion of this Convention. amendment, which I think will effect this obI am opposed to imprisonment for debt, but I ject, which I will read again, provides that the am willing to give to the creditor a sufficient "person of a fraudulent debtor shall not be conremedy against the dishonest debtor, who while fined in prison after he shall have surrendered able to pay the just demand against him, would up his estate for the benefit of his creditor or hide himself behind the inability of the law to creditors, in such manner as may be prescribed reach the fraud he may be willing to perpetrate by law." If this amendment is inserted in the upon the rights of an honest and unsuspecting original section in connection with the amendcreditor. Butpoverty should never be punished ment of the gentleman from Owen, as I have as a crime. proposed, it will, I think, attain the object all Mr. NEWMAN moved to amend the amend- seem desirous of accomplishing. ment of the gentleman from Posey by striking Mr. KILGORE moved to amend the original out the word " property," where it occurs at the amendment by striking out all after the word end of the amendment, and inserting the words "debt," in the first line, and inserting the words' estate, and the person of the fraudulent debt- " except in the case of the debtor who frauduor shall not be continued in prison after he shall lently conceals or withholds his property or efhave surrendered his estate for the benefit of fects, he shall be imprisoned." That, he said, his creditor or creditors, in such manner as may would cover the whole ground. be prescribed by law." The amendment was ruled out of order. This change, Mr. N. contended, would give to Mr. PEPPER of Ohio. I had no desire, Mr. the section a more enlarged signification than President, to say anything whatever on this subif it contained the word "property." It did ject. I have no doubt that it is the unanimous seem to him, that gentlemen on the opposite opinion of this Convention that no man shall side to themselves meant to get at the same be imprisoned simply for debt. That is the setthing they were contending for. They desired tled opinion of every gentleman here, I pre 350 sume. The object seems to be to incorporate. question whether there shall be any imprisonsomething in the Constitution providing that